When things get hard, it’s really quite difficult to find a reason to keep going. Today, we have an incredible guest, Shaun Flores, talking about what keeps us going. This was a complete impromptu conversation. We had come on to record a podcast on a completely different topic. However, quickly after getting chatting, it became so apparent that this was the conversation we both desperately wanted to have. And so, we jumped in and talked about what it’s like in the moments when things are really difficult, when we’re feeling like giving up, we are hopeless, we’re not sure what the next step is. We wanted to talk about what does keep us going.  This is, again, a conversation that was very raw. We both talked about our own struggles with finding meaning, moving forward, and struggling with what keeps us going. I hope you find it as beautiful a conversation as I did. My heart was full for days after recording this, and I’m so honored that Sean came on and was so vulnerable and talked so beautifully about the process of finding a point and finding a reason to keep going. I hope you enjoy it just as much as I did. Shaun: Thank you so much for being able to have this conversation. Kimberley: Can you tell us just a little background on you and what your personal, just general mental health journey has looked like? Shaun: Yeah. My own journey of mental health has been a tumultuous one, to say the very least. For around five to six years ago, I would say I was living with really bad health anxiety to the point where I obsessed. I constantly had an STI or an STD. I’d go to the clinic backward and forward, get tested to make sure I didn’t have anything. But the results never proved to be in any way, shape, or form sufficient enough for me to be like, “Okay, cool. I don’t have anything.” I kept going back and forward.  How I knew that became the worst possible thing. I paid 300 pounds for the same-day test results. Just to give people’s perspective, 300 pounds is a lot. That’s when I was like, “There’s something wrong. I just don’t know what it is.” But in some ways, I thought I was being a diligent citizen in society, doing what I needed to do to make sure I take care of myself and to practice what was safe sex. But then that fear migrated onto this sudden overnight change where I woke up and I thought, “What if I was gay?”  overnight. I just quite literally woke up. I had a dream of a white guy in boxes, and I woke up with the most irrational thought that I had suddenly become gay. I felt my identity had come collapsing. I felt everything in my world had shaken overnight.  I threw up in the toilet that morning, and at that time I was in the modeling industry. Looking back now, I was going through disordered eating, and I’m very careful with using the word “eating disorder.” That’s why I call it “disordered eating.” I was never formally diagnosed, but I used to starve myself. I took diuretics to maintain a certain cheekbone structure. Because in the industry that I was in, I was comparing myself to a lot of the young men that were there, believing that I needed to look a certain kind of way.  When I look back at my photos now, I was very gaunt-looking. I was being positively affirmed by all the people around me. I hated how round my face was. If I woke up in the morning and my face was round, I would drink about four liters of water with cleavers tincture. I took dandelion extracts. Those are some of the things that I took to drain my lymphatic system. I went on this quest for a model face. And then eventually, I left the industry because it just wasn’t healthy for me in any way, shape, or form. I was still living with this fear that I was gay. If I went to the sauna and steam room in the gym, I would just obsess 24/7 that if I could notice the guy’s got a good-looking body, or if he’s good-looking, this meant I’m gay. It was just constant, 24/7. From the minute I slept to the minute I woke up, it was always there.  Then that fear moved on to sexual assault. I had a really big panic attack where I was terrified. I asked one of my friends, “Are you sure I haven’t done anything? Are you sure I haven’t done anything?” I kept asking her over and over. I screamed at her to leave because I was so scared. I must’ve been hearing voices, and I was terrified that I could potentially hurt her. I tried to go to sleep that night, and there were suicide images in my head, blood, and I was like, “There’s something up.” I just didn’t know what was going on. I had no scooby, nothing.  That night, I went to the hospital, and the mental health team said that they probably would suggest I get therapy. I said, “It’s cool. I’ll go and find my own therapist.” I started therapy, and the therapy made me a hundred times worse. I was doing talk therapy. We were trying to get to the root of all my thoughts. We were trying to figure out my childhood. Don’t get me wrong, there’s relevance to that. By that time, it was not what I needed.  And then last year, this is when everything was happening in regards to the breakdown that I had as well. I got to such a bad point with my mental health that I no longer wanted to be alive. I wanted time to swallow me up. I couldn’t understand the thoughts I was having. I was out in front of my friends, and I had really bad suicidal thoughts. I believed I was suicidal right off the bat. I got into an Uber, called all my friends, and just told them I’m depressed and I no longer want to be alive. I’m the kind of guy in the friendship group everyone looks up to, almost in some ways, as a leader, so people didn’t really know what to do. That’s me saying as a self-elected leader. That’s me being reflective about my friendship group. But I woke up one day, and it was a Saturday, the 4th of June, and I just said, “I can’t do this anymore.” I said, “I can’t do this.” I was prepared to probably take my life, potentially. I reached out to hundreds of people via Instagram, LinkedIn, WhatsApp, email, wherever it was, begging for help because I looked on the internet and was trying to figure out what was it that was going on with me. I was like, “Why am I having certain thoughts, but I don’t want to act on them?” And OCD popped up, so I believed I had OCD.  When I found this lady called Emma Garrick (The Anxiety Whisperer) on Saturday, the 4th of June, I just pleaded with her for a phone call. She picked up the phone, and I just burst out in tears. I said, “What’s wrong with me?” I said, “I don’t want to hurt anyone. Why am I having the thoughts I’m having?” And she said, “Shaun, you have OCD.” From there on, my life changed dramatically. We began therapy on Monday. I would cry for about two hours in a session. I couldn’t cope. I lost my job. There were so many different things that happened that year.  In that same year, obviously, I had OCD. I tore my knee ligaments in my right knee. Then I ended up in the hospital with pneumonia. Then my auntie died. Then my cousin was unfortunately murdered. Then my half-brother died. Then my auntie—it’s one of my aunties that helped to raise me when my dad died on Christmas day when I was six—her cancer spread from the pancreas to the liver.  Then fast-forward it to this year, about a couple of months ago, that same auntie, the cancer became terminal and spread from the liver to the spleen. I watched her die, and that was tough. Then I had my surgery on August the 14th. But I’m still paying my way through debt. It was an incredibly tough journey. I’m still doing the rehab for my knee, still doing the rehab for OCD.  That’s my journey. I’m still thinking about it to this day. Me and my therapist talk about this, and he has lived experience of OCD. I still don’t even know what’s kept me alive at this point, but that’s the best way to describe my story. That’s a shortened, more condensed version for people listening. Kimberley: Can I ask, what does keep you going? Shaun: What keeps me going? If I’m being very honest, I don’t know sometimes. There are days when I’ve really struggled with darkness, sadness, and a sense of hopelessness sometimes. I ride it out. I try not to give in to those suicidal thoughts that pop up. And then I remember I’ve got a community that I’ve been able to create, a community that I’m able to help and inspire other people. I think I keep going on my worst days because the people around me need someone to keep inspiring them. What I mean by that is some of the messages I’ve got on the internet, some of them have made me cry. Some of them have made me absolutely break down from some people who have opened up to me and shared their entire story. They look up to me, and I’m just like, “Wow, I can’t give up now. This isn’t the end.” I’ve had really dark moments, and I think a lot of people look at my story and perhaps look at my social media, and they think I’m healed and I’ve fully recovered. But my therapist has seen me at my worst, and they see me at my absolute best.  I think I stay here. What keeps me pushing is to help other people, to give other people a chance, and to let them know that you can live a life with OCD, anxiety. Depression I’m not sure if I fully align with. Maybe to some degree, but to let them know they can live a life in spite of that. I don’t know. Again, I keep saying this to my therapist. There’s something in me that just refuses to quit. I don’t know what it is. I can’t put it into words sometimes. I don’t know. Maybe it’s to leave the world in a better place than I found it. I really do not know.  Kimberley: I think I’m so intrigued. I’m so curious here. I think that this is such a conversation for everyone to have. I will tell you that it’s interesting, Shaun, because I’m so grateful for you, number one, that we’re having this conversation, and it’s so raw. Somebody a few months ago asked me, what’s the actual point of all this? It was her asking me to do a podcast on the point, what’s the point of all this? I wrote it down and started scripting out some ideas, and I just couldn’t do the episode because I don’t know the answer either. I don’t know what the point is. But I love this idea that we’re talking about of what keeps us going when things are so hard. Because I said you’re obviously resilient, and you’re like, “No, that’s not it.” But you are. I mean, so clearly you are. It’s one of your qualities. But I love this idea of what keeps you going.  In the day, in the moment to moment, what goes through your mind that keeps you moving towards? You’re obviously getting treatment; you’re obviously trying to reduce compulsions, stop rumination, or whatever that might be. What does that sound like in your brain that keeps you going? Shaun: Before I answer that, I think I’ve realized what my answer would be for what keeps me going. I think it’s hope because it makes me feel a bit emotional. When I was at my absolute worst, I had lost hope, lost everything. I lost my job. I end up in mountains of debt that I’m still paying off. It’s to give hope to other people that your life can get better. I would say it has to be hope.  In those day-to-day moments, one of my really close friends, Dave, has again seen me at my worst and my best. Those day-to-day moments are incredibly tough. I’ve had to learn to do things even when I don’t want to do them. I’ve had to learn to eat when I don’t always want to eat, to stick to the discipline, to stick to the process, to get out of bed, and to keep pushing that something has to change. These hard times cannot last forever. But those day-to-day moments can be incredibly tough when my themes change, when I mourn my old life with OCD in the sense that I never thought consciously about a lot of my decisions. Whereas now, I think a lot more about what I do, the impact I have on the world, and the repercussions of certain decisions that I make.  I would say a lot of my day-to-day, those moment-to-moments, is a bit more trepidation. I think that would be the best way to describe my day-to-day moments. I was just going to say, I was even saying to my friend that I can’t wait to do something as simple as saving money again. I’m trying to clear off everything to restart and just the simple things of being able to actually just save again, to be able to get into a stable job to prove to myself that I can get my life back.   Kimberley: To me, the reason that I’m so, again, grateful that we’re here talking about this is it really pulls on all of the themes that we get trained in in psychology in terms of taking one step at a time. They talk about this idea of grit, like you keep getting up even though you get knocked down. I don’t think we talk about that enough. Also, the fact that most people who have OCD or a mental health issue are also handling financial stresses and, like you said, medical conditions, grief, and all of these things. You’re living proof of these concepts and you’re here telling us about them. How does that land for you? Or do you want to maybe speak to that a little more? Shaun: I was reading a book on grits. I was listening to it, and they were talking about how some people are just grittier than other people. Some people may not be as intelligent or may not be as “naturally gifted,” but some people are grittier than other people. A lot of people who live with chronic conditions such as OCD or whatever else, you have to be gritty. That’s probably a quality you really have to have every single day without realizing it. To speak to that, even on the days when I have really struggled, as I said, I don’t know what always gets me up. There’s something inside.  I look around at the other people around me who've shown grit as well—other people around me who have worked through it. The therapist I have, he’s a really good therapist. I listen to his story, Johnny Say, and he talks about something called gentle relentlessness, the idea that you just keep being relentless very gently. You know that one step-a-day kind of mentality that, “Okay, cool, I’m having these thoughts today. I’m going to show myself some compassion, but I’m going to keep moving.” For me, when I speak to him, I tell him he inspires me massively because he’s perfected and honed his skills so much of OCD that he’s able to do the job that he does. He’s able to help other people, and that inspires me. When I look at the other people around me, I’m inspired by other people’s grit and perseverance as well. That really speaks to what I need to be able to have. I think it’s modeled a lot for me. Even in my own personal life with my mom, there’s a lot of things that we’ve gone through—my father, who died on Christmas Day when I was six—and she had to be gritty in her own way to raise a single boy in the UK when she was in a country she didn’t want to be in because of my granddad.  I think grit has been modeled for me. I think it really has been role-modeled for me in so many different ways. When people say, “Just get up and keep going,” I think it’s such a false notion that people really don’t understand the complexity of human emotions and don’t understand that, as humans, we go up and we go down. A very long time ago, I used to be that kind of human where I was like, “Just get out, man. Suck it up. Just keep going, bro. You can do this. You’ve got this.” I think going through my own stuff has made me realize sometimes we don’t always feel like we’ve got it. We have to follow the plan, not the mood sometimes. But I honestly have to say, I think grit has been role-modeled a lot for me. Kimberley: Yeah. It’s funny, as you were talking, I was thinking too. I think so often—you talked about this idea of hope—we need to know that somebody else has achieved what we want to achieve. If we have that modeled to us, even if it’s not the exact thing, that’s another thing that keeps us going. You’ve got a mentor, you’ve got a therapist. Or for those of you who don’t have a mentor or therapist, it might be listening to somebody on a podcast and being like, “Well, if they can do it, there has to be hope for me.” I think sometimes if we haven’t got those people in our lives, we maybe want to look for people to inspire and model grit and keep going for us, would you say?  Shaun: Absolutely. Funnily enough, when I was going through depression as a compulsion, my friend sent me your podcast about depression as a compulsion. The idea is that you feel this depressive feeling, you start investigating it, trying to figure out if you’re depressed, and then it becomes a compulsion. And then, after that compulsion happens, you stay in this spiral with depression or whatever it might be. That’s something else I realized—that having your podcast and listening to talking about being kind, self-criticism, and self-compassion was role modeled a lot for me because, again, growing up, I didn’t have self-compassion. It’s not something we practice in the household or the culture I’m from. But having it role-modeled for me was so big. It is huge. I cannot even put into words how important it is to have people around you who still live with something you live with, and they keep going, because it almost reminds you that it’s not time to give up.  Sadly, I’ve lost friends to suicide. I found out that someone had died in 2021 at what I thought he had died. We met at a modeling agency when I was modeling. We met at the Black Lives Matter march as well, regardless of whatever your political opinions are for anyone listening. I found that he had died. I remember I messaged some of the friends we had in common. I was like, “What happened?” And nobody knew. A couple of weeks ago, I just typed in his name. Out of nowhere, I just typed, and I was like, “What happened to him?” I found that he had taken his life when he was in university halls. I was just like, "You really don’t know what people are going through." Some people have messaged me and said what I talk about has kept them going. I’m just sitting there like, “Wow, other people have kept me going.” I think that becomes a role-modeled community almost in some ways.  Kimberley: For sure. It’s funny you mention that. I too have lost some very close people to me from suicide. I think the role model thing goes both directions in that it can also be hard sometimes when people you really love and respect have lost their lives to suicide. I think that we do return to hope, though. I think for every part of me that’s pained by the grief that I feel, hope fuels me back into, how can I help? Maybe I could save one person’s life. Actually, sometimes helping just gets me through a hard day as well. I can totally resonate. I think you’re right. There is a web of inspiration. You inspire somebody else. They inspire you. They’ve been inspired by somebody. It’s like a ladder. Shaun: Absolutely. I once heard someone say, the best way to lose yourself is in the service of others. One of the things that really got me through depression when I was at the thickest of my OCD was when I said, "How am I going to go and serve other people? How am I going to go and help other people?" When I asked my first therapist, I said, “Why are you so kind to me? Why do you believe in me?” she told me something that really sat with me. She said, “I believe you’re going to go on to help so many other people.” When I released my first story on August the 14th, and I had so many people reach out to me that I knew, people I didn’t know speaking about OCD, I was like, “This is where it begins. That in the suffering, there is hope. In the suffering, I can live. In the suffering, I can find purpose. In the suffering, I can use that to propel me out of pain.”  But you are right. This conversation has really made me think a lot about how I keep going, like how I’ve been able to just keep pushing because my friends are, again, around me. My therapist knows that there are days when I don’t want to do my therapy. I’ve gone to my physiotherapist, and I’ve said, “You have no idea what I’ve gone through.” I said, “I’m not feeling to do anything. I just want to give up right now.” I said, “I’m tired of this.” I said, “Why is life so hard on me?” Death is one thing. Physical injury is another thing. OCD is another thing. Chasing money is another thing. Everything is a constant uphill battle. It really has made me think a lot about life. It’s made me think a lot about my friends who have opened up to me about their struggles.  Very similar to you, Kimberley, I want to go on to, at some point, become a therapist and change people’s lives. When people reach out to me, I would love to be able to say to someone, if someone said, “I can’t afford a therapist,” I’d be like, “Let me try and help you and see what I can do on my part.” That kind of kindness or that kind of empathy, that kind of lived experience, that understanding—it's something I really want to give back to other people. It’s hope. Hope is everything.   Kimberley: Yeah. It’s ever-changing, too. Some days you need one thing, and the next day you need others. For me, sometimes it’s hope. Sometimes it’s, like you said, day-to-day grit. Sometimes it’s stubbornness, like I’m just straight-up stubborn. You know what I mean?  Shaun: It’s funny you say that.  Kimberley: We can draw on any quality to get us through these hard things that keep us going. My husband always says too, and now that we’re exploring it and I’m thinking about it, because you and I did not prepare for this, we are really just riffing here—my husband always says when I’ve had a really hard time, which in the moment sounds so silly and so insignificant, but it has also helped, amongst these other things, “Put on the calendar something you’re really looking forward to and remind yourself of that thing you’re going towards every day. It doesn’t even have to be huge, but something that brings you joy, even if it’s got nothing to do with the hard thing you’re going through.” I’ve also found that to be somewhat beneficial, even if it’s a dinner with friends or a concert or an afternoon off to yourself, off work. That has also been really beneficial to me. Shaun: Yeah. Taking aim at things in the future can give you things to really look forward to. In the thickest of my OCD, I had nothing to look forward to sometimes. I remember I turned down modeling jobs because of my anxiety. The only thing I could look forward to was my therapist, and that was my silver lining in many, many ways. I remember I would say to her, “I’ve been waiting for this session the whole week. I’ve needed this.” Another thing you touched on that I think made me laugh is stubbornness. There is a refusal. There’s a refusal to lay down. For example, I make jokes about this. I go to the gym sometimes, and I’ll say to the guys, “I’ve had a knee injury. Why are my legs bigger than yours?” That small little bit of fun and a little bit of gest, a bit of banter, as we would say. I’ll go to them, and I’ll be like, “I need to show these guys that my legs are still bigger than theirs and I’ve got an injury. I’m not supposed to be training legs.” Just small things like that have really given me things to look forward to. Something as silly as male ego has been-- I say this to everyone—male, female, anyone. I’m like, “How dare I get sexy? How dare I be mentally unwell but still sexy?” There is an audacity to it. There’s a temerity, a gumption, a goal. There is a stubbornness to go out there into the world and to really show people that, again, you can live with it. When I delivered my TEDx talk in 2022 at Sheffield Hallam University about masculinity, I remember a lady came up to me afterwards. This is when I was doing something called German Volume Training. It was heavy, very intense training. I put on a lot of muscle in that short space of time. She came up to me and said, “You do not look like a guy who suffered with his mental health at all.” She said, “You look like the complete opposite.” Because people have this idea that people who live with illness are—there’s this archetype in people’s heads—timid, maybe a bit unkempt. They don’t look after themselves.  It really said a lot to me that there really is no one image of how people look. Even where I live, unfortunately, there’s a lady who screams at people. She shaves her hair. She just sits down there. A very long time ago, I would look at people and judge them. One thing I’ve really learned from living with illness has been we never know what’s happened in people’s lives that has pushed them to the place of where they are.  There was also another older gentleman, and he smelt very strongly of urine and alcohol. I was on the train with him, and the train was packed. You could just see he was minding his own business. He had a bag on him, and clearly he had alcohol in it. There were two girls that were looking at him with such disgust, contempt, and disdain. It really got to me. It really irked me about the way people looked at him because, in my head, I’m like, “You don’t know what that guy’s gone through. You just have no idea what led him to become clearly an alcoholic. He probably is potentially homeless as well.” I got off that train, and I just felt my views on things had really changed, really changed in life. Dealing with people just-- I don’t know. I’ve gone off on a tangent, but it’s just really sat with me in the sense of looking forward to things—how I look forward to how my views are evolving and how my views on life are changing. Kimberley: Yeah. I’m sort of taking from what you’re saying. You bring up another way in which you keep going, which is humor, and I’ve heard a lot of people say that. A lot of people say humor gets me through the hardest times. You say you make jokes, and that, I think, is another way we can keep going. Shaun: Yeah, you are correct. When I go to the gym and I banter all the guys, I’m laughing at them, and typical male ego—that has really helped me on many, many occasions. Even people around me who we have sit down and we have a laugh. There’s times when I quite honestly say to people, my life is a Hollywood movie at this point. I need a book. I need a series of unfortunate events, a trilogy, whatever it might be at this point, because it’s almost as if it can’t be real. Humor has been a propelling agent in me helping to get better, but it’s also been an agent in everything that I do.  My first therapist, Emma, said to me, “OCD leaves you with a really messed-up sense of humor because you’ve got to learn how to laugh at the thoughts. You’ve got to learn how to not take everything seriously.” I have had some of the most ludicrous thoughts I could imagine. I told my friend, and she started cracking up at me. She started laughing. She’s like, “Do you know how ludicrous this is?” And I said to her, “I know.”  Or, for example, again, at my absolute worst, I couldn’t even watch MMA, UFC, or boxing because guys were half naked. I couldn’t be around guys who were half naked because of how my sexual orientation OCD used to really play with my head. There were so many ridiculous situations. I would walk outside and I’d have a thought, “Kill the dog,” and I’d be like, “Oh, well, this is bloody fantastic now, isn’t it?” I’ve had images of all sorts in my head. I told my friend, and he started laughing. I was like, “Bro, why are you laughing?” But it made me laugh because it took the seriousness out of what was going on. It really did.  Humor—it's been huge. It’s funny how that can even maneuver into the concept of cancel culture because there was a comedian who has OCD, and he said, “When was being clean really a bad thing?” I know, obviously, we know the way people see OCD, but he drew light on the fact that he has quite severe OCD himself. He’s using humor clearly to help him get better. But humor has been another thing. Humor, stubbornness, grit, resilience—all these things in my life experience have really helped me to still be here. I still say that as a guy who hasn’t been paid this month from work. I’m on sick leave. I’m still trying to find ways to make money. I’m still trying to train to become a therapist. I’m applying for courses. I’ve applied for a hundred jobs within the National Health Service over here in the UK. That’s just to put it into perspective. Again, as my therapist would say, a gentle relentlessness to keep pushing humor to find some of the joy and some of the sadness that happens. Kimberley: I cannot tell you how grateful I am that you have allowed us to go here today. I think this is the conversation that we needed to have today, both of us. My heart is so full. Can people hear more about where they can get in touch with you, hear more about you? You’ve talked so beautifully about the real hard times and what’s gotten you through. Where might people get ahold of you? Shaun: I say to people, you can reach out to me on Instagram, TikTok, wherever you want. I say to people, just reach out, and please feel free to message me. I don’t know whether this has happened to you, Kimberley. Some people reach out to me when they’re really struggling with their OCD, and then some people I never hear from again. Some people don’t turn up to phone calls. I think for a lot of people, there’s a big fear that if they reach out to me, I’m going to hear something that I’ve never heard. I can honestly say to people, I’ve had every thought you could imagine. I’ve had the most ludicrous thoughts. I’ve had pretty much every single theme at this point. I really want, and I really encourage people to please reach out and have a conversation with me. You can find me anywhere on social media. Kimberley: I have so enjoyed this conversation. Are there any final statements you want to make to finish this off? Shaun: If you give up now, you’ll never see what life would look like on the other side. That’s the one thing I think I have to really say. Kimberley: It’s amazing. Thank you.

If you want to know how to be uncomfortable without making it worse, you’re in the right place. Today, we’re talking all about being uncomfortable and learning how to be uncomfortable in the most skillful, compassionate, respectful, and effective way. This applies to any type of discomfort, whether it be your thoughts, your feelings, any physical sensations, or the pain that you’re feeling. Anything that you’re experiencing as discomfort, we’re here to talk about it today. Let’s do it.  Welcome back, everybody. For those of you who are new, welcome. My name is Kimberley Quinlan. I’m a marriage and family therapist in the state of California. I’m an anxiety specialist, and I love to talk about being uncomfortable. It’s true, I don’t like being uncomfortable, but I love to talk about being uncomfortable, and I love talking about skillful ways to manage that.  WHAT IS DISCOMFORT, REALLY?  Now, before we get started, let’s first talk about what we mean by being uncomfortable. There are different forms of discomfort. One may be feelings or emotions that you’re having—shame, guilt, anxiety, sadness, anger. Whatever it is that you experience as a feeling can be interpreted and experienced as uncomfortable.  Another one is sensations. Physical sensations of anxiety, physical sensations of shame, and physical sensations of physical pain. I myself have a chronic illness. Physical sensations can be a great deal of discomfort for us as human beings. We’re also talking about that as well.  We’re also talking about intrusive thoughts, because thoughts can be uncomfortable too. We can have some pretty horrific, scary, mean, and demanding thoughts, and these thoughts can create a lot of discomfort within us.  What we want to do here is we want to first acknowledge that discomfort is a normal, natural part of life. It truly is. I know on social media, and I know in life, on TV, and in movies, it’s painted that there are a certain amount of things you can do, and if you were to attain those, well, then you would have a lot less discomfort. But as someone who is a therapist who has treated the widest range of people, I’ve learned that even when they reach fame, a lot of money, or a degree of success, we can see that they have some improved wellness. They do have some decrease in discomfort, but over time, they’re still going to have uncomfortable thoughts. Sometimes having those things creates more uncomfortable thoughts. They’re still going to have physical pain, and they’re still going to have emotions that cause them pain, particularly when they’re not skillful.  What I’ve really learned as a human being as well is we can have a list of all the things that we think we need in these circumstances to be happy. But if our thoughts and our feelings and our reactions to them aren’t skillful, compassionate, wise, and respectful, we often create more suffering, and we’re right back where we started.  Now, I don’t want it to be all doom and gloom, because the truth is, I’m bringing you some solutions here today—things that you can apply right away and put into practice, hopefully, as soon as you’ve listened to this podcast. Let’s get to it.  WHAT MAKES DISCOMFORT WORSE?  First, I’m wondering whether we can first discuss what it means to make it worse because a lot of you go, “What? Make it worse? Are you telling me I’m to blame?” And that’s not what I’m doing here. But I do think that we can do some kind of inquiry, nonjudgmental inquiry into how we respond to our suffering.  LIFE IS 50/50 Think of it this way: I am a huge proponent of some Buddhist philosophy here, which is that suffering is a part of life. Discomfort is a part of life. I believe that life is 50/50. There is 50% wonderful, but you’re still going to have 50% hard. Sometimes that percentage will be different, but I think it creates a lot of acceptance when we can come to the fact that there’s going to be good seasons, but there’s also going to be some really hard seasons in our lives. It doesn’t have to be that it’s 50/50 all the time. Sometimes you might be in a really wonderful season. Maybe you’re in a really tough season right now. I’m guessing that’s the case because you’re listening to this episode. I recently went through a really tough season, which inspired me to make this episode for you. But in life, there is suffering. But what we know about that is how we respond to that suffering can actually determine whether we create more and more suffering.  WE RESIST IT One way that we make it worse is, when we are experiencing discomfort, we resist it. We try to get rid of it. We clench up around it. We try to push it away. What often happens there is, what you resist persists. That’s a common saying we use in psychotherapy. Another thing to consider here is, the more you try to push it down, the more it’s going to bubble up anyway, but in ways that make you feel completely out of control, completely lost in this experience, and maybe overwhelmed with this experience. Another thing is, the more you resist it, the more you’re feeding your brain a story that it’s important and scary, which often means that it’s going to send out more anxiety hormones when you have that situation come up again. That’s one way we make it worse.  WE JUDGE IT  Another way we make it worse is, we judge it. When we have discomfort, we judge it by going, “This is wrong. This is bad. You’re a bad person for having this discomfort. What’s wrong with you for having this discomfort? It shouldn’t be here.”  WE THROW “TANTRUMS”  I’ve done a whole episode about this, and this is something that is my toxic trait, which is I go into this emotional tantrum in my head where I’m like, “This is bad. This is wrong. It shouldn’t be happening. It shouldn’t be this way. It should be this other way. It’s not fair. I can’t believe it’s this way.” I totally can catch myself going down a rabbit hole of judging the situation, the circumstance, and myself and my discomfort, which only creates more discomfort for myself.  WE RUMINATE Another way we make things worse is rumination, which is similar to what I was just talking about. But rumination is, we try and solve things, we loop on them. Again, it could be a looping on, “Why is this happening? It shouldn’t be happening,” like I just explained. Or maybe it’s trying to figure it out. Often, we ruminate on things that actually don’t have a solution in the long run anyway.  Maybe you have chronic pain. Let’s say you do, and you’re ruminating, “What could it be? Why is it there?” I mean, the truth is, we don’t usually have a medical degree. Our rumination, it might feel productive, but we don’t actually have the details to know the answer.  Let’s say something went wrong at work and you made a big mistake, and we ruminate about what we did, how bad it was, and how humiliating it was. But in that situation, we’re trying to solve something that’s already happened that we have no control over anymore.  For people who have anxiety, maybe they’re trying to ruminate, trying to solve whether bad things will happen in the future, but we all know we can’t solve what’s going to happen in the future. That’s a dead end. That’s a dead-end road, and it again creates more suffering on our part. WE PUNISH OURSELVES  The next piece here is, we punish ourselves. We punish ourselves for having discomfort. We might withhold pleasure. We might treat ourselves poorly. We might not show up in ways that really honor our mental health and our self-care because we’ve made a mistake, we are going through a hard time, or we’re having this uncomfortable experience. These things, while in the moment they feel warranted and they feel productive and effective, they’re actually not. All they’re doing is adding to the suffering you’re already experiencing.  For those of you who say, “Yeah, no, but I deserve to suffer more,” that’s actually not true either. We have to really catch that because punishing someone with this sort of very corporal punishment kind of method—or we need to beat you up—actually, we’ve got so much research to show it doesn’t make you better. It doesn’t prevent uncomfortable things from happening. It doesn’t make it so that you don’t make a mistake. You’re a human being. We’re all struggling. We’re all doing the best we can, and we’re not going to do it perfectly.  HOW TO BE UNCOMFORTABLE, EFFECTIVELY & COMPASSIONATELY What can you do differently? Let’s now talk about how we can be uncomfortable in an effective, productive,  compassionate, and respectful way. For me, one of the first things that helps me is to really double down on my mindfulness practice. Sometimes the best thing you can do with mindfulness is to become aware that you’re engaging in these behaviors, to catch them, and to label them when you are. It might be as simple as labeling it as “I’m in resistance.” You might just say ‘resistance’ or ‘rumination.’ You’re bringing to your mind and you’re bringing to your attention that you’re engaging in something that you’ve identified as not helpful. That in and of itself can be so helpful. Now, for those of you who are new to me, I have two episodes that I’ve done on this type of situation in the past. Number one was Episode 188, where I talked about how to tolerate uncomfortable sensations specifically. The other one is Episode 113, which is where we talk about specifically how to manage intrusive thoughts. You can go on there after you’ve listened to this, but stay with me here because I’m going to give you a little step-by-step process.  MINDFULESS Number one, with mindfulness, we’re going to identify and become aware that we’re in resistance, that we’re ruminating, that we’re beating ourselves up, and we’re also going to practice non-judgment as best as we can. Think of this like a muscle in your brain. You’re going to practice strengthening that muscle. But once we are aware of it and once we’ve acknowledged that we’re judging, we’re then going to be aware of or bring our attention to where we are in resistance to allowing it to be there because that’s ultimately a part of our work.  Discomfort rises and falls so much faster when you do nothing about it. What I want to offer you is, the solution, in some way, can be quite simple, which is to do nothing about the discomfort except love it. Be careful and gentle with yourself. Do nothing at all about trying to make it go away. Do nothing at all about punishing yourself.  NON-JUDGMENT The non-judgment piece is where we allow it to be there without making a meaning about it. Here’s an example. You’ve had an intrusive thought that was really, really scary, and you wish you didn’t have it. You actually are concerned about it. It alarmed you. What you can do is, in that moment, acknowledge that thoughts are thoughts. They’re not facts. They don’t mean anything. They’re just sentences that our brains come up with. What we often do is, when we have it, we think, “What does that mean about me? Why am I having this thought? Why am I having this sensation? Why am I having this anxiety? Why am I having this anger? Why am I having this shame? Why am I anxious in this social situation? Why is this hard?” NOT OVER-IDENTIFYING What we want to come back to is not making meaning of it, not over-identifying with it and just acknowledging that this is a normal part of human life. This is a normal part of being a human. We all have intrusive thoughts. We all have strong emotions, some more than others. But if you’re someone who has strong emotions more than you maybe think others are, there’s a couple of things I want you to remember. Number one, we actually don’t know how other people are doing, so you can’t actually say that they’re not having these emotions. Maybe they are.  Often, people will say to me, “You always seem so calm.” I’m like, “Oh, you have no idea.” Like, yeah, I am calm in many situations, but it doesn’t mean I don’t have anxiety about certain things or big, big, big emotions about certain things. You just don’t see it. You don’t see it on the camera; you don’t see it in the podcast. You don’t see it in my daily life. It’s at home in my mind when I’m experiencing it as I’m regulating. But we want to work at not over-identifying with “What does it mean about me” and that “I’m bad for having these experiences.” One thing you must take away, and I say it quite often, is there is no thought, feeling, sensation, urge, or image that makes you bad. The meditation vault, which we just launched, is an online vault, a collection of meditations for people with sticky thoughts, intrusive thoughts, anxiety, and so forth. They’re very, very specific in almost every single one. I work at getting them to not overidentify with the experience they’re having.  Oh, you’re having an intrusive thought. Let’s not make meaning of what that means about you.  Oh, you’re having shame. Your shame is telling you that you’re bad. Let’s not agree with it. Let’s acknowledge that it is a thought and a feeling, but it’s not a fact about you.  You’ve made a mistake; you failed. Okay, we can acknowledge that, but that doesn’t make you a failure. We want to catch over-identifying with what our discomfort is experiencing and how we’re experiencing that discomfort. The over-identification, the labeling, and the making meaning often is what contribute to us feeling double the discomfort.  MAKE SPACE FOR THE DISCOMFORT The next thing you want to do is make space for the discomfort. My clients roll their eyes because they know I’m going to say it. I’m going to say, “Why can’t we make some space for this emotion,” or “Would you be willing to make some space for this emotion as it rises and falls?” If we make space for it to be here while we go about our day, while you interact with your child or your loved one, or your client, or your employer or your employee—if we can just make space for it to be there, nonjudgmentally, it tends to be less loud.  BE WILLING TO BE UNCOMFORTABLE The whole point of the work that I do here with my patients and with you is to nurture a sense of you having any emotion, any feeling, or any discomfort in a safe way, in a way where you make space for it. I often will say, we want to work towards you being able to have any thought, feeling, sensation, urge, or image so that you know that there’s nothing you can’t handle. If you’re really willing to feel it all, if you’re really willing and have practiced giving yourself permission to feel all the discomfort, there’s very little that can be painful for you. There’s very little that can stump you. There’s very little that can hold you back.  Often, when people ask me, “How do you do what you do? You spend all day with clients who are suffering, and you’re in the suffering with them. And then you get online and do these videos, or you do social media. How do you do all that?” The only reason, there’s nothing special about me, truly. The only thing about me is I’m willing to feel a lot of discomfort. I really am. The more I practice having it, the more I feel empowered that I can handle anything.  Confidence to do things isn’t something you just learn and have; you get it by feeling feelings. Having them willingly and making space for them—truly, this is the work. If there’s really anything I’ve learned, it’s that—we have to be better at making space and feeling our feelings and having the discomfort and saying, “Great, this is a wonderful opportunity for me to practice being uncomfortable.” If something gets thrown out of whack this week for you, I urge you to say, “Okay, good. This is another great opportunity for me to practice being uncomfortable. Where do I notice my resistance to being uncomfortable? Where do I notice the judgment? Where do I notice that I overidentify with it? Where do I notice that I’m punishing myself for it?” Okay, good. Now that we know, we’re aware, and we’re non-judgmental, let’s use this as an opportunity to be able to feel any experience that comes up. Things get a whole lot less scary if you’ve already practiced feeling your feelings.  FEEL YOUR FEELINGS I actually did a whole podcast on that as well. It’s Episode 65, where I talk about how your feelings are meant for feelings. That’s another resource if you want to jump into that kind of topic as well. But then once you’ve done all that—we’ve done this zooming in and now we zoom out—then you move on with your day. You don’t just sit there and feel your feelings and sit on the couch and stare at the floor going, “I’m feeling my feelings. I’m feeling my feelings. Here they are.” That’s fine if that’s what you feel right about. But ideally, you would take the feelings with you and go mow the lawn or do the things you love or do the things that you need to get done today, your chores or whatever that might be.  But take this practice with you, because if you can get good at feeling discomfort, then you can marry that skill. It’s a skill. It’s not something that you were born with; it’s something that you can learn to do. But once you get good at that, then you can marry it with, “Now I’m going to go live my life while I use that skill.” And then you 10x your life, truly, 10x your ability. You’re still going to be uncomfortable. You’re still going to have hard days. You’re still going to have some discomfort, but your experience of it will not be one of, “Oh no, geez, I hope it goes away. I hope it’s not strong today. I hope it doesn’t stay all day because it really messes me up.” It won’t be like that. You’ll be like, “It doesn’t matter. I know it’s here, and I’m going to be here with it, and I’m going to make space for it. I’m going to be kind. I’m going to be non-judgmental about it. But it can come. I’ve done it as much.” One thing I did learn, and I’ll use this as an example, is I used to have the most excruciating sleep anxiety. I used to worry about not sleeping. Because if I didn’t sleep, I’d have massive anxiety. The next day, I’d be teary. I just couldn’t function well. As I got pregnant and went to have my first child, I was so worried about how my mental health would go.  Don’t get me wrong; not having sleep did impact my mental health for sure. But getting less sleep and having to get up and take care of a baby, and then having to get up and go to work once I’m done with maternity leave, and learning that I can actually get through a day, using my skills, seeing my patients, and managing my emotions, a lot of my sleep anxiety went away because all I could think of was that I’ve done worse. I’ve literally gone a night where I slept for 25 minutes and I still was able to cope. Even if I can’t fall asleep tonight, I know I can handle it. That empowerment is gold. That change in perspective. That attitude shift about discomfort is a game changer.  Now, of course, you know what I’m going to say. This has to be done with an immense degree of compassion. This has to be done in small, baby steps. I’m not here to tell you to throw yourself into 10 out of 10 discomfort, but if you have to, I still trust and believe wholeheartedly that you can still handle it. I always say to my patients, no one has ever died from discomfort itself. It won’t kill you. It’s just going to be really hard. We can practice holding ourselves kindly as best as we can as we ride that wave. That’s the work.  A RECAP: BRING ON THE DISCOMFORT To recap, what makes it worse? Discomfort and uncomfortability get worse when we do anything to try and make it go away. We won’t resist it with this urgency to get it go away. But the solution is acceptance, willingness, non-judgment, compassion, making space for it, and then engaging with your life. Again, I’ll say it again. The solution is accepting the discomfort. Willingness is the willingness to be uncomfortable. The non-judgment of being uncomfortable. It’s neither good nor bad; it’s neutral. It is still uncomfortable, but it doesn’t mean you are bad or it’s bad. We’re going to be self-compassionate as we feel this uncomfortable feeling. And then we’re going to keep making space and moving back into our lives, doing maybe baby steps at a time. Even if you do this for 10 seconds, I applaud you. Let’s celebrate you. If you do it for 30 seconds and you’re able to do that multiple times a day, you are on the right track. If you can be uncomfortable for three minutes at a time, you’re basically winning at life. I want to encourage you, this is huge.  Sometimes, when things are really hard at the Quinlan household and I want to scream, yell, or totally do something that I know I will regret, stopping and saying, “Okay, this is discomfort. Can you stay with it? Can you make space for this for three minutes or 30 seconds,” has given me an opportunity to not say things I don’t mean, to not react in ways that will end up causing me more suffering that keep me in line with my values. This ability to be uncomfortable has saved me from making some big mistakes in my life. Not all of them. I’ve still made mistakes, of course, but relationally, huge mistakes I could have made had I not slowed down and made a little space for the fact that I’m angry. “Okay, I’m going to make space for this anger,” or that I’m hurt, or that I’m really anxious. There’s been times where I’ve wanted to run away from my anxiety, but my ability to, for 30 seconds at a time or 10 minutes at a time, make space for the anxiety, not judge it, allow it, and bring it on has meant that I've been able to face some really scary things, and that’s what I want for you. That’s how you’re uncomfortable. Is it easy? No way is not easy. Is it doable? Absolutely. I want to remind you, this is a practice in which you can grow. Before you know it, there will be these moments of empowerment that will shock you, and you can’t believe that you’ve made these changes out of nowhere. I fully and wholeheartedly believe that. I’ve heard it from so many patients and so many students. A lot of you have also shared how helpful it’s been. That is why I say it’s a beautiful day to do hard things, because when we do hard things in a very skilled way, they actually make us feel really empowered, and we have a sense of “I can handle things now.” All right. It’s a beautiful day to do hard things. Again, please go to CBT School if you’re interested in any of our online courses. They talk about all these kinds of things. We have courses for OCD, anxiety, depression, BFRBs, meditation, mindfulness, time management—the whole deal. My hope is that this type of message can be taken in any area of your life, and hopefully, it makes it so much better.  Have a great day. 

In today’s episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit podcast, you will learn how to meditate to reduce anxiety. You’ll also learn which meditation is best for anxiety and how to find a meditation practice that suits your lifestyle and your recovery needs. With the pressure of today’s society and the news being so scary, people are rapidly turning to meditation as a powerful tool to calm their minds and ease their anxiety. My name is Kimberley Quinlan. I am a licensed therapist and anxiety specialist, and my hope today is to teach you how you can use meditation to help manage and reduce your anxiety. What Is Meditation?  Now, what is meditation? Meditation is a training in awareness, and the goal is to help you get a healthy awareness and understanding of what is going on in your mind. So often, our minds are like a puppy. They are just going all over the place, jumping, skipping, yelling, screaming, and going in all different directions. If we aren’t skilled, and if we aren’t intentional with that, we can be off with that, off down the track in negative thinking, scary thinking, and depressive thinking.  The Benefits Of Meditation For Anxiety Relief There are many benefits of meditation for anxiety relief. Meditation helps train your brain. Now, there are so many benefits to meditation for anxiety relief, and I want to share with you some of those benefits. The first one is, it rewires your brain. It reduces the activity in the amygdala, which is the part of the brain that is responsible for the fear response. Meditation can also lower stress hormones such as cortisol. It can increase the production of those feel-good neurotransmitters like serotonin and dopamine. This is really important, particularly if you struggle with depression.  It can also shift the brain chemistry and lead to improved mood, reduced anxiety, and an overall sense of well-being. We could also argue that this would be helpful for anybody, even if they don’t have anxiety.  We also know that meditation cultivates mindfulness, which we talk a lot about here on Your Anxiety Toolkit, which is the practice of being fully present and nonjudgmental in the moment. Meditation increases self-compassion and acceptance, which I think we all agree can help us with our mental health, and it helps reduce negative thinking patterns and also reduces self-criticism.  Common Problems People Have With Meditation Now, there are a couple of problems here, though, with meditation. Often, when people come to me, they'll say, “I don’t know about this whole meditation thing. It sounds a bit like a cult or a bit like a scam or a fad, a psychology fad.” Often, that’s because people have a misled idea about what meditation is and how it works.  One of the main problems that I hear is that people expect that meditation will, poof, make their anxiety go right away. As they’re practicing meditation—and it is a meditation practice—as they’re starting to practice this meditation, they’re getting frustrated because they’re thinking, “This isn’t working. It’s not making my anxiety go away.”  We want to first challenge the idea that meditation is not a quick fix. It’s not something that’s going to, poof, make your anxiety go away, but there are so many benefits that I will talk to you about here in just a second.  Another problem that people have with meditation is they get frustrated with the practice. They have these expectations that they should be able to do it. Well, simply because it’s often sitting or very stationary, they assume, “I must be really good at this. It’s such a basic task.” But the truth is, it’s not. We have to remove those expectations that we will be excellent at it, that it should be easy, or that discomfort won’t arise.  Another problem people have is that they do experience anxiety while they’re meditating, and they’ll say, “I’m here to get away from my anxiety, but when I’m meditating, everything is still, and I actually feel more anxious.” We’ll talk about that here in just a second.  People also don’t like meditation because they have been told that the solution to anxiety is to make it go away. And so, what would this mindfulness meditation practice really do if we’re actually just sitting there thinking? What a waste of time, actually putting more focus on the actual problem of anxiety. Again, not true, but these are the common problems people have.  The last one is, people say, “I don’t have time for meditation.” I always laugh because I do know that the Dalai Lama said, “For those who don’t have time to meditate, they’re the ones who need to meditate twice as long.” That always made me laugh because there’s been many times where I’ve said, “Oh, I don’t have time today,” and I laughed thinking, okay, even more important that these are the days that I focus on meditation.  Which Meditation Is Best For Anxiety? Let’s talk about which meditation is best for anxiety, because I know you’re here to talk about how meditation can help with your anxiety. Now, there are many types of meditation. No one really agrees what the best one is, and no one really even agrees on the specific types because there are so many and so many modifications. But here are some options—we will also talk about later how to apply these to your anxiety disorder—that you may want to consider.  VIPASSANA MEDITATION The first one is mindfulness, or what we call Vipassana meditation. Now, this is a meditation that really helps you become skillful in how you respond to your intrusive thoughts, your feelings, and your sensations. BODY SCAN MEDITATION Another type of meditation is body scan meditation. This is very body- and somatic-centered in that we’re focusing on different parts of the body, often with some kind of relaxation technique to slowly move down the body and move us into a place of relaxation.  Now, there are pros and cons to this meditation. Some people find it very relaxing, especially when we’re looking at getting sleep. Others find that, again, their expectations are very high, and then they get quite frustrated when they’re unable to get relaxed, because the truth is, when we’re anxious, when that amygdala is firing in our brain, it is really hard to relax. Sometimes meditation in and of itself is not going to fix that. But a body scan meditation is a really effective one, particularly if you’re trying to slow down the nervous system. Maybe look at trying to get some sleep, a nap, or some rest.  VISUALIZATION MEDITATION Another type of meditation is visualization meditation. This is where you actually visualize something happening to you. Maybe you’re walking along a path or along a beach. You’re in a relaxed setting. Let’s say you’re an athlete. It might be visualizing you doing the activity, the exercise, or the skill that you’re practicing—a layup for basketball, running a marathon, or so forth. The visualization can help with empowerment. It can help promote creativity. It can help create a sense of mastery over something that you haven’t yet mastered.  WALKING MEDITATION Another type of meditation is walking meditation. This is a great one, particularly if you’re someone who is very sedentary during your work. I am one of those people. I sit a lot during my day. Walking meditation is similar to mindfulness meditation in that you’re very aware of the present moment, what it feels like for your feet to touch the ground, for the balls of your feet to touch the ground compared to the heel of your feet, what it feels like for the wind to blow on your face, or what it feels like for the weight balance, going from left foot to right foot, and so forth. SELF-INQUIRY MEDITATION Another type of meditation practice is self-inquiry meditation. This often involves inquiry or curiosity to who I am in this moment. It might be, who am I as I hear these sounds? Who am I when I have these thoughts? There are some pros and cons to this for those with anxiety. Sometimes, when we have anxiety, we already spend a lot of time doing a lot of self-inquiry or self-rumination about who we are. What’s our identity? Are we good? Are we bad? This type of meditation can be beneficial for some, but for many people with anxiety, they may find it not helpful at all unless they’re with someone who can very much direct them and keep them on track with the active inquiry instead of going into rumination. MANTRA MEDITATION Another type of meditation is mantra meditation. This is where you repeat a mantra, a phrase, or a sound over and over again. It’s about the training of the mind and the training of discipline for one specific sound, tone, or word. It can be very helpful, again, if there’s a particular intention you’re trying to go towards. But again, for those folks with anxiety, this can be very frustrating because, again, there’s sort of this attachment and expectation and clinging to a certain outcome. For those of us who have anxiety, that can actually create a lot of distress in our bodies. Not to say that any of these are bad or good; it’s just dependent on your specific set of situations. LOVING KINDNESS MEDITATION One that I always love and talk about all the time is loving-kindness meditation. This is an act of compassion where you send yourself others and all sentient beings loving kindness and care. It is a way of generating, practicing, and nurturing self-compassion. It is a beautiful way to be in connection with people out in the world that maybe we don’t have a connection with, particularly if we’re lonely or feeling isolated and alone. Loving-kindness meditation can be so beneficial to people with anxiety or depression, OCD, health anxiety, and so forth if they’re feeling so alone and they’re really very hard on themselves. Loving kindness is absolutely a beautiful meditation for people with anxiety.  ZAZEN MEDITATION Another type of meditation is zazen meditation, which is a specific zen meditation where the goal is to be focused on a direct experience of this present moment. The main goal is non-attachment. The goal is to allow everything to be just as it is. It’s a very disciplined practice, but can be very beneficial to people who have anxiety.  BREATHE MEDITATION The last two: number one, breath meditation where you focus on the breath and you have that as your focal point. This is very beneficial for people with anxiety. The only thing I would say is, for those who have somatic obsessions of a specific type of OCD, if your somatic obsession is already focused on the breath, we actually then wouldn’t practice this because it would actually add to their hyper-awareness. But overall, breath meditation is a very beneficial practice for people with anxiety.  SOUND MEDITATION And the last one is a sound meditation. This is where your focal point is on sound. Very beneficial for those with somatic obsession and very beneficial for people who really like the vibration of sound and really love music, and music is something that grounds them, lifts them up, motivates them, and so forth.  There are different types of meditations and some pros and cons, but there are some specific things I want you to know and remember as you start a meditation practice and while meditating, because so many people have come to me to say, “I don’t like meditating. It doesn’t help me. Therefore, I’m not going to do it.” I feel that that is such a shame because meditation can be such a powerful mental health practice. It can be such powerful training for the brain.  I often say to my clients, when you start to notice some tightness in your knee or some shoulder pain, you don’t just ignore it. You think, okay, I have an opportunity to strengthen that muscle around the knee or stretch out that shoulder. We usually move in and do some work, exercises, and practices to create an environment where that pain can go away. I think of meditation as being exactly that. It’s like physical therapy for the brain, and it can help. Like I talked about, there are so many benefits to meditation, but it does require that we do it specifically in a way that doesn’t make more anxiety. Now I have a really exciting thing I want to mention to you before I get into all the things I want you to remember as you move into your meditation practice. Because so many people have come to me and said that they’ve listened to meditations online, they’ve gone to meditation trainings, and they actually found it to be not helpful for their anxiety, for their intrusive thoughts, or for their depression.  I have created an online meditation vault specifically for those who have anxiety and repetitive intrusive thoughts. My goal with this meditation vault is to make it very informative for the person who struggles with high expectations and rapid, repetitive intrusive thoughts, and I try to bring that concept into the meditations so they’re specific for people with anxiety.  There are over 28 meditations. There are specific meditations for people with OCD, health anxiety, social anxiety, panic, generalized anxiety, and depression. There are meditations on sleep, meditations on compassion, meditations on mindfulness, and meditations on strong emotions like guilt and shame. I did my best to pack them all into one specific place so that you have a wide range of guided meditations specifically for whatever it is that you need. There’s even a meditation for people who don’t want to meditate. I felt that that was really, really important.  You can click the link in the show notes below if you’re interested. You can also go to CBTSchool.com to get information about the vault. It is very low-cost. I want it to be low-cost so everyone can access it, and I’m so excited for you guys to check that out. How To Meditate To Reduce Anxiety If you are wondering how to meditate to reduce anxiety, there are things you need to remember as you practice meditation.  Do not expect anxiety to magically disappear. Number one, if that were to happen, it probably wouldn’t be for very long anyway.  I want you to imagine this practice as the slow and steady growth of a muscle. If you were going to train at the gym, you wouldn’t go straight in and pick up a hundred pounds right away. You would start low; 10, 15, maybe 10 to 12 and a half, then to 15, and you would slowly work your way up. You wouldn’t have these expectations that your body would be able to pick up a hundred pounds at a time without pain afterwards. You would go in knowing that the cost of this is going to be that I may get pain if I overdo it, and I want you to think about that with your meditation practice as well. Not that you’ll have pain, but that it’s healthy to take baby steps and do it slowly and steadily. Another thing I want you to think about is, again, to think of this as an opportunity to change the way your brain responds to anxiety. Think of this as an opportunity to change how you respond to discomfort, how you act in your daily life, and how you can change your habits to benefit your mental health. How Long Does It Take For Meditation To Reduce Anxiety And Stress? Often, people will ask: how long does it take for meditation to reduce anxiety and stress? The answer here is very simple, which is, let’s not put pressure on that to be the outcome. I know you came here to learn that exact answer, but the thing to remember here is, the more we resist anxiety, the more we want it to go away, the more we try and avoid it, the more we’re feeding to our brain that it’s dangerous and scary, and it will make our brain send out more stress hormones. We want to use meditation as an opportunity to train our brains that we are no longer going to run away from anxiety and stress. Instead, we’re going to open up a space for anxiety and stress and have it be a safe place. Have our bodies and our minds be a safe place for anxiety to rise and fall. It’s important that we understand that this, again, is an opportunity for you to change your specific emotional reaction to having anxiety and stress. Now that being said, I will still answer the question, which is, I think within time, you will probably see a very significant improvement. Most research shows that a short meditation practice of four to six weeks will significantly reduce people’s stress and significantly improve people’s relationship with their anxiety. I often say to my patients, give it 30 days. Go in with a solid commitment to practicing as often as you can for 30 days. Track your anxiety; maybe even put it on a scale from 1 to 10. If you’re able to do it in this way, where you’re not trying to get rid of anxiety but instead trying to make it a place where you can have anxiety and not respond with judgment, criticism, and resistance, you’ll probably find that you’ll have significantly reduced levels of anxiety and stress after 30 days.  Now, again, I want to emphasize that there is significant research to show that meditation for stress is very beneficial. In fact, we’ve found that practicing meditation again downregulates your stress response. It reduces your nervous system’s activity and reactivity to stressful events in your life and can greatly benefit your overall well-being. Definitely, if you’re someone who’s struggling with a very stressful time, and I think we all are given that the news is so, so painful right now, I think it’s a beautiful opportunity for us to start a meditation practice.  Another thing I want you to remember here is that by practicing meditation, you widen your window of tolerance. Now, what does this mean? I’ve talked about it on the podcast before. If your window of tolerance is very narrow, it means, as soon as you have any kind of strong emotion, strong experience, sensation, or pain in your body because you haven’t practiced being able to tolerate that, you are very much more likely to rely on unhelpful safety behaviors to cope with that distress.  In discomfort, as I mentioned, we actually widen our window of tolerance. The wider we can have this window of tolerance, the more likely we are to be regulated when we have a lot of emotions. We can be steady and really intentional in how we respond. We are more likely to act according to our values than according to our fears. So we want to practice widening that window of tolerance. There is so much benefit to doing that.  Another thing to remember, and I’ve mentioned this already, but I think it’s really important as we finish up, is to not put pressure on yourself to get this right. I will often say to clients, and I say it all the time in the meditation vault over and over again, expect anxiety to show up over and over again. Expect your mind to go off track and go off and think about the grocery list. Your job is to bring it back to the present moment.  Don’t be upset with your brain for going off track. That’s its job. Its job is to be highly functioning and thinking about all the things. But the training and the benefit is that discipline to bring you back to the focal point that you’re on right now, depending on the type of meditation that you’re doing.  I hope that you can practice letting meditation be messy, because it is. Even very, very skilled monks who practice meditation for hours a day still report that there are days when meditation is messy. There are days when your brain will be all over the place like that puppy dog, but with practice, you will start to see an improvement in your ability to be disciplined and intentional with where you put your attention, which again, as I mentioned, reduces the chances of you engaging in safety behaviors that aren’t helpful, reduces the chances of you engaging in compulsions, and reduces your chances of going back down into those negative thought processes. There are so many benefits. The last thing I want you to remember is, as you begin this practice, be curious. Be open. Instead of being judgmental and rigid about what you think will happen, be curious about what might come from inquiring and moving into this practice.  Meditation has changed my life. It has calmed me in the darkest hour. It has been there for me when I needed support, and I hadn’t had anybody else to lean on. Meditation, as I mentioned, is a practice where you teach yourself to be a safe place for you to experience any emotion at all, and you know that it’s there; you can take it with you wherever you’re at. It costs nothing to practice meditation in the moment, and I hope that it’s something that will bring you as much joy and as much wellness as it has for me.  Have a wonderful day, everybody. As always, it is a beautiful day to do hard things. Again, if you’re interested in the mindfulness meditation vault, you can click the link in the show notes. Have a wonderful day.

If you are scared to take medication, you are in the right place. Today, we are going to take a deep dive into a very common fear that impacts many people and their recovery, and that is the fear of taking medication. If you’re someone who needs help with this, I think this is going to be really helpful for you.  Hello, my name is Kimberley Quinlan. I am an anxiety specialist, and I help people with anxiety. My hope is to make it an easy and a kind recovery for you.  FEAR OR TAKING MEDICATION Now, today we’re talking about the fear of taking medication, and a lot of what I do with my patients in my private practice, which is in California, is really helping them work through that fear. In addition, on my online platform called CBT School, I often get a lot of questions about this, such as whether or not people can take meds, should they take meds, and so forth. But before we get into all that, what I want to share with you first are a few housekeeping points that will keep us on point and in the right direction today.  If you’re someone who is scared to take meds, we first have to acknowledge that this episode is not going to cover whether you should take meds or not. I am not a medical doctor. I am not a medical professional. I am a mental health professional, and I do not prescribe medication. I am not licensed to do that. But I am here to help you manage the fear around it. If you are someone who wants to take medication but is afraid of it because of the side effects, or maybe because of the shame, the guilt, and the stigma around it, my hope today is that we can work on managing that fear and getting you the information and skills you need so that you can speak with your medical professionals and make a decision based on what is best for you.  It is important to remember that every person is different, and it’s important that you make these decisions with your medical doctor so that we’re making a decision based on your medical history, where you’re at in your mental health recovery, your genetics—all of the things that you need to discuss with your medical doctor. But today, let’s get going. We’re talking about managing medication anxiety.  Where did this episode come from? I actually made a post about this on Instagram not long ago, and the response was overwhelming, with people saying, number one, “I’m too afraid to do it. Help me,” and number two, a lot of people said, “I had a lot of anxiety around taking medication. I got the help I needed and I managed it, and now I’m so relieved that I did.” I wanted to spend some time today talking about the reasons people are scared to take an antidepressant or other psychiatric medications or even medications in general.  REASONS PEOPLE A SCARED TO TAKE AN ANTIDEPRESSANT OR OTHER PSYCHIATRIC MEDICATIONS There are multiple reasons patients do not take their medications, due to fear. In this episode, we are coming the core reasons fears stops people from taking their antidepressants or other medicines.  FEAR THAT MEDICATION WILL CAUSE SIDE EFFECTS The number one reason that people reported being scared to take medication is the fear that medication will cause side effects. This is a very common fear around taking medication, and it is true. We will talk about the side effects here later in this episode, but that is a valid concern. But often, people are afraid of the side effects, even though they are not afraid of it being a catastrophic side effect. They’re often afraid of just change, or they’re afraid of what is uncertain and unknown, and that is a big thing for them.  OCD FEAR OF TAKING MEDICATION Another reason that people are afraid to take any kind of medication is an OCD fear of taking medication. The reason I say it like that is, it’s beyond just a generalized fear of the side effects. It’s often around a belief of what this medication will do to you.  One example I’ve had in my private practice has been the subtype of OCD called emotional contamination. They’re afraid that by taking the medication, it will dramatically change their personality or that they’ll turn into a different person. There’s a lot of compulsions around that, rumination around that, and avoidance around that. They’re also doing this kind of avoidant compulsions in other areas of their lives as well.  HEALTH ANXIETY: WHAT IF MEDICATION CAUSES AN ILLNESS Another OCD fear of taking medication is under the umbrella of health anxiety. A lot of people are afraid that the side effects will be catastrophic, that it will give them some catastrophic medical condition if they were to take this psychiatric drug or any medication in general.  PHARMACOPHOBIA (PHOBIA OF DRUGS AND ALCOHOL) Now, in addition to that, there is actually a specific medication phobia called pharmacophobia, which is a phobia of drugs and alcohol. This is a specific phobia where people are afraid of any and all drugs. Often, in this case, they’re afraid to take headache medication or allergy medication. They’re even afraid to look at pills for reasons that could be plentiful. It could be a learned behavior around medication, particularly if they’ve heard stories of people who have misused drugs and bad things that have happened. That is another reason why people are often scared to take meds.  FEAR OF MEDICATION SEXUAL SIDE EFFECTS Another common fear, as we’ve already discussed, is fear of medication’s sexual side effects. Now, for those of you who have a specific fear around the side effects, you have a valid concern. There are some medications that do cause sexual side effects, and we did an entire episode on Your Anxiety Toolkit talking specifically about the sexual side effects of anxiety medications. We had a psychiatrist come on and speak about this. It’s episode 332, and I will link to it in the show notes if your interest is specifically more in-depth information about that. But I will also give some tips and tools to use around that later on here in this episode.  I AM ASHAMED TO NEED MEDICATION (MEDICATION STIGMA) Another fear around taking medication includes the fear of being ashamed or the fear that you’re weak or that you’re stigmatized for taking medication. This is a really, really big one. A lot of people feel that they are weak, faulty, or wrong for needing medication. Now, this is where I slow down and get very transparent. I am very comfortable sharing that I take medication for anxiety. I have, through different stages of my life, needed to take medication for this, and I’m an anxiety specialist, guys. I want to tell you that, not because I want to make this about me, but because I want to share with you that you can have all the tools and skills, and they really do work.  Research does show that if you were to compare medication and CBT, especially for anxiety disorders, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is actually the number one way to get recovery from these anxiety disorders. But even better than that, the research shows that combining medication and cognitive behavioral therapy is the gold standard. And so, if you’re really struggling, by combining these, this is where you can get massive help with your mental health struggle.  Again, I want to really share with you that even though I have the skills and the tools, I take medication. There’s no shame in that. A lot of times, we often will compare that you wouldn’t feel ashamed for taking diabetic medication. You wouldn’t feel ashamed if you needed medication for another medical condition. There is no shame, no guilt, and no stigma that I want you to take away from this episode from taking medication.  Now, I want to also validate, yes, there is still a stigma. There will be some people out there who may even respond to this episode by saying, “You shouldn’t take meds, and you should try this other treatment,” and so forth. That’s still going to be there. But I want to offer you a degree of compassion and a degree of education that there is absolutely nothing wrong with you if you want to take medication or need to take medication.  FEAR THAT I WILL BECOME ADDICTED TO MEDICATION Last, the fear about taking drugs is the concern that the medication will be addictive or that the person will become reliant on the medication. We’ll talk about that here in just a little bit, but the one thing I want to mention here is, if you are in contact with your doctor—you’re being constantly followed by your doctor and checked in by your doctor—you can bring up these concerns with them, and they can help determine that. Again, each of the questions you have, you should go to your doctor and bring it up because if you do have a history or if, in generations above you, you have a history of addiction, then absolutely bring that up to your doctor and they can help make decisions around different medications that can help prevent that for you. MANAGING MEDICATION ANXIETY (SKILLS & STRATEGIES)  Now let’s go into managing medication anxiety. This is where the good stuff comes in. Number one is, I want you to prioritize finding a skilled and trustworthy psychiatrist or medical professional. It doesn’t have to be a psychiatrist. In fact, there are other people who can help prescribe your medication, whether it be your pediatrician, your medical doctor, or your intern. It could be a nurse. There are psychiatric nurses who can prescribe medication. You want to find somebody who’s going to slow down, take their time with you, not just push you through really fast, and answer your specific questions.  Now, when it comes to managing anxiety, OCD, or health anxiety, we usually discourage asking compulsive questions, repetitive questions, or going overboard with the questions. But I do think that it’s important that you give yourself permission and honor your need to ask the questions that you have about the medications you want to go on. That will help you understand the medication, understand the side effects, and understand the pros and cons so you can make an informed decision. As we’ve said before, we want to understand questions about side effects, sexual side effects, addiction, how long you should be on medications, and what specific side effects you should be looking out for. We want to understand this. We want to know what the norm is for these medications on what it would look like, how fast you can see results, and what this process is going to look like. Don’t be afraid to ask lots of questions.  Now, if you have OCD fear of taking medication or pharmacophobia, a thing you might want to consider is finding an ERP therapist. I’ve had a lot of clients come to me who have consulted with their doctor, and they’ve agreed that medication would be helpful for their recovery and that they required some mental health advice in moving in that direction. What we did is either start by just looking at pictures of medication or we might fill the prescription of the med that they need to take and just have it with them, hold the medication, put it in their hand, smell the medication, and take one with the care and following of a medical professional. Start that process by slowly exposing them and practicing being around that medication to start with.  If you are someone who’s struggling in that area, absolutely consider seeking out an ERP therapist (exposure and response prevention) who can help manage all of that as we go and help with the response prevention piece. Because remember, exposure is not the main work; it’s also catching any compulsions that you’re doing around the medication. Maybe you’re doing a lot of compulsive checking with the medication and so forth.  Another thing I want you to think about is being able to challenge your faulty thoughts and beliefs about the medication. As we talked about before, with those reasons that people are afraid, there is often a lot of faulty, catastrophic thinking around medication. Ones that are common that I see with my patients are, “I won’t be able to handle the side effects.” Let’s say a common side effect for a medication might be some nausea. Then we will say, “Okay, let’s talk about your ability to handle nausea. Have you handled nausea in the past?” Let’s say it’s headaches. “Okay, what could you do if those headaches were to appear? How might you speak with your doctor about those? How might you be able to plan for that?” Maybe it’s like, “What if I have a panic attack if I take the medication?” “Okay, let’s talk about some skills and talk about challenging your ability to manage the anxiety that you feel.”  A lot of people say, “I already have a lot of anxiety. I don’t want to do things that create more anxiety.” Again, we’ll say, “Are you willing to tolerate that anxiety? What are you telling yourself about your own mastery of riding waves of discomfort and so forth?” If you have, let’s say, emetophobia, the fear of nausea and vomiting, “What do we believe about vomit? Do you believe that you can’t handle that?” And again, you may need to defer to an ERP therapist to help you if you have emetophobia, the fear of vomiting and nausea, to help you manage that so that you can take the medications if that’s something you’re wanting to do. We do want to challenge faulty thoughts, and we want to challenge faulty beliefs about medication.  Again, here is where I get really, really passionate about saying: There is absolutely no shame in taking medication. Taking medication does not mean you’re weak, does not mean you’re lazy. It doesn’t mean you’re doing anything wrong. It doesn’t mean that you’re never going to get better, and it doesn’t mean you need to be on it forever. Again, we’re here to encourage you to consult with your medical doctor and be flexible with your recovery.  Now, being flexible is so important here. So often, patients of mine will say, “But what if I don’t like the medication? What if I get on it and I really don’t like it, or it makes me feel terrible and I can’t function?” Well, okay, we’ll cross that bridge when we get there. We’re going to be flexible with this. We don’t have to stay on it forever. Once you get on it, if then there is an issue, we will address that issue. Then we’re not going to spend time before taking the medication trying to troubleshoot all the possible catastrophes and scenarios. We’re only going to take one day at a time, and with each day, we’re going to make measured, skillful, and wise decisions based on the actual events of that day, not on the possible scenarios that may happen, that may be catastrophic that haven’t happened yet.  So often, people who have a fear of medication are responding to things that haven’t even happened yet. I know when I got POTS (postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome), I was not functioning, my anxiety was through the roof, I was depressed, and the doctors strongly advised me to take medication. A big part of me was absolutely like, “What if this makes it worse?” and all these things. I had to just say, “Kimberley, be present. Stay with what’s happening today, and we will address that as it goes. We’ll cross that bridge when that happens. If that does happen, we will speak with a medical professional. We will take one step at a time and we will do what we need to do.” We want to catch that anticipatory anxiety about medications and the anticipatory anxiety about the side effects. It’s very, very important that we catch and manage that as we go.  Another thing to remember here is, you have to be willing to have side effects. As you go on medication, you have to be willing to feel some feelings that may be uncomfortable. As I mentioned, common side effects: headaches, nausea, tiredness, maybe a little jittery, and so forth. Again, I want to keep prefacing: please speak to your medical professional about the side effects because each medication is different. But be willing to have side effects. Again, being flexible, knowing that if this medication doesn’t work for me, we can try something else. I know for me personally, I had to try five medications before I found one that fit me. Five. It took a long time. I had to taper up and then I had to taper down, and I had to try another one, which brings me to the next skill I want you to practice, which is patience.  I just kept honoring my own needs and said, “I’m going to be patient with this process.” A lot of my patients have found one medication that was prescribed by their medical professional and found that it was great. It’s worked for them straight away. But we want to be patient, and we want to be willing to have a lot of different sensations. I’m not saying you will, but we want to be willing. I actually have a whole other episode on Your Anxiety Toolkit called How to Have Uncomfortable Sensations. If you’re struggling with that, that may be a good resource for you to use as you go through this process as well.  Now, if you have, or if you’re afraid of sexual side effects, again, I talked about listening to that episode, but I will also say one thing that they did say in that episode: It is okay to seek out a sex therapist or try other skills, such as a skill called sensate focus, or speak to your medical professional about that.  Now, there are a lot of meds that do not have sexual side effects. If that’s something that is a concern for you, please mention that when you’re seeing your psychiatrist or your medical professionals so that they can pick a medication that will reduce the likelihood of that. Again, we don’t want to catastrophize about potential problems that haven’t happened, but it is okay to bring that up if that’s important to you.  Now, of all the things and skills I’m going to give you today, the one thing I really want to emphasize is, please give yourself lots of space and lots of permission to rest during this process as you begin medication. I remember when I first went on medications, my mom actually said to me, “Hun, why don’t you just use this time? Thin out your schedule and give yourself lots of time to rest. If you do have side effects, then you won’t be overwhelmed with trying to work and push through.”  Any way you can during this process, take as much help as you can, whether that be neighbors helping you pick up the kids, grocery delivery, whether it be you don’t clean the house this week and you just let things sort of slide a little. You let your colleagues, your teacher, or your coworkers know that you’ve started a medication and that you might be feeling well.  Take as much space and take as much care as you can as you start this process. It is scary. It is anxiety-provoking. I’m not here to tell you that it won’t be, but what I am here to say is we can do hard things. How can we support you as you make this value-based decision? How can you find help, support, and care as you lead forward with your values? You’re not letting fear stop you anymore. You’re doing the hard thing. You’re taking the step for your long-term recovery, even though it’s the hard one. How can we be very kind, compassionate, and effective moving forward as you move through this process?  The next tool I want you to think about is being mindful around the side effects. What I mean by that is, when we do have side effects, we can be non-judgmental, we can stay present, and we can stay in non-resistance to that side effect if you have any. What we know here is, research does show that mindfulness practice does reduce people’s experience of suffering. What we mean by that is, if you’re suffering, your experience of it could be, “This is very, very bad,” or your experience could be, “This is tolerable and doable, and I can handle it.”  How can you take the judgment out of the side effects? When you’re having them, are you catastrophizing, saying, “This is terrible, this is bad, I can’t handle this,” or are you saying, “This is neutral and tolerable, and I can manage this”? If you’re having a side effect, are you resisting it, pushing it, and fighting it, or are you giving yourself permission to be uncomfortable, and are you willing to allow those sensations to rise and fall?  As I’ve already discussed, one of the points I had here in my notes is to remind you to always put your values first. If you believe that medication is the right choice for you, lead with that value. Do not let fear interfere with your decision here. That was a lot of rhyming words, but we’re going to go with it.  The next thing I want you to think about is to talk with your doctor about whether it would be helpful for you to log any changes. I find that it’s very beneficial to log your symptoms. The day you start taking your meds and how many days you take that meds, you probably will need to taper up maybe, depending on what your doctor has told you to do. Take note of when you change any medications. Are there any changes in your anxiety? Is there any change in your mood? What side effects are you experiencing? And that will be there to help when you talk with your doctor next about how it’s going and whether it’s actually the medication.  I know a lot from my patients, they’ll say, “The medication is definitely causing this problem for me. I’m tired all the time.” But actually, if they’ve logged, we can see, “Actually, around that same time, you started getting less sleep for reasons like around school, or maybe you had a lot of travel, or it was the holidays. Could that be what’s actually causing your symptoms?” Take that log to your medical professional and let them help you decipher whether it is in fact the medication or if this is actually a lifestyle change that has happened in your life. Again, let’s challenge the stigma here. My main hope here with this whole episode is to take the stigma out of it. There is absolutely no reason for you to feel ashamed for taking medication. There is no reason to believe that you are weak for needing medication. I personally am proud of myself for saying and honoring that I matter. My wellness matters. I will do nothing but put my wellness, my mental health, and my medical health as number one, and I will do that proudly. If that means taking medication, so be it. If other people want to judge me, that’s fine. I don’t really mind if they judge me. Yes, it hurts my feelings sometimes, but they can have their opinion. I’m still going to do what’s best for me.  I hope that that empowers you to, again, learn from your medical professional what’s best for you. Decide for yourself whether this is a value-based decision. Decide whether you’re going to let fear stop you, and take baby steps. I cannot emphasize how important it is to take baby steps and to stay present. Only deal with problems as they arise. Do not make decisions based on potential problems that may show up in the future. Because if that’s the case, you’ll never move forward with your values. You’ll always move forward with fear. We recently did a whole episode about how to act according to your values, not fear. This is another very important step for your recovery.  The last thing I’m going to say is, it’s a beautiful day to do hard things, and you can do hard things too. If you have a fear of taking medication, if you’re scared to take medication and it’s impacting your recovery, I hope that this has helped you to manage medication anxiety, to give you a little bit of empowerment, a lot of hope, and hopefully help you to manage your anxiety as you move forward.  Have a wonderful day, everybody. It has been a pleasure being with you again. I know your time is incredibly valuable, and I’m so honored that you chose to spend your time with me today. I’ll see you next week.

If you are wondering if you have (Generalized Anxiety Disorder) GAD vs. OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) and how to tell the difference, this episode is going to be exactly what you need.  My name is Kimberley Quinlan. I’m a cognitive behavioral therapist. I specialize in all anxiety disorders, and I help people overcome their anxiety in the kindest way possible. Now, I have treated generalized anxiety disorder and OCD for over 15 years, and I want to share with you that it is true—there is a massive overlap between OCD and GAD. They do look very similar. So I’m going to break it down and address the GAD and OCD overlap. Let’s go. GAD versus OCD. You might know this, but in the world of anxiety disorders, this is actually a very controversial topic right now. I’ve been to conferences and master classes where clinicians will very much disagree on how we differentiate between the two. In fact, some people believe that they are so similar that they should be labeled as the same thing. We don’t all agree, and the reason for that, as I said, is that they do look similar. They do follow a very similar cycle.  My hope is that in order to understand what GAD is and what OCD is, we need to actually go through the diagnostic criteria. And that’s what we’re going to do for you today so that you too can understand the difference between GAD and OCD and determine for yourself what you think will help move you in the right direction. Let’s talk about it.  GENERALIZED ANXIETY DISORDER SYMPTOMS As I mentioned, in order to get a GAD diagnosis, you do have to have a specific set of symptoms, and we’re going to go through them.  Number one, if you have GAD, the first symptom you need to have is anxiety and worry, and that’s usually focused on everyday events like work, school, relationships, money, and so on. Now, the frequency of GAD needs to occur more days than not for at least six months. The person needs to find it difficult to control this worry and anxiety, and it focuses on areas that are not consistent with other mental health struggles.  What we mean by that is, let’s say the focus was on being judged by other people. Well, that’s better understood as social anxiety. Or if the focus of your worry was on your health, then we would actually be better diagnosing you or understanding your symptoms as health anxiety. If it was focused on a specific thing, like planes, needles, or vomit, we would better understand that as a specific phobia. In order to have the diagnosis of GAD, it needs to not be under the umbrella of a different diagnosis. Other things that we would rule out when we’re thinking about GAD are things like panic disorder, body image, or even a previous trauma.  Now, the fifth symptom is it needs to cause distress and impairment. That’s very, very important here because, again, we’re talking about a disorder. What that means is a lack of order, no order. So what we want to see here is that it’s highly impacting their daily lives, highly impacting their ability to function.  And then the sixth criteria is it has to be ruled out that these symptoms could be from a medical condition or substance abuse. An example of that might be even me with POTS. I have postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome. A lot of the symptoms of POTS can actually look a little bit like generalized anxiety.  The seventh criteria are the specific symptoms, and this is important to recognize because this might be true of a lot of different situations, symptoms, diagnoses, medical and mental. You need to have symptoms such as restlessness or being on edge. You need to be either easily fatigued, have difficulty concentrating, or have what we call a blank mind. You might have irritability, you might have muscle tension, and you could also have sleep disturbances.  That is the breakdown for GAD. As I said, it’s very easy to mix it up with other mental health disorders, such as OCD, because they can look very, very similar.  OBSESSIVE COMPULSIVE DISORDER SYMPTOMS Let’s talk about OCD now. What is OCD? Now, in order to understand what OCD is, we need to again address the specific criteria to get a diagnosis of OCD. The symptoms of OCD include the presence of obsessions and compulsions or one. Sometimes, again, you might have obsessions without the compulsions, but usually, at the onset of the disorder, you will have both. You’ll also have intrusive, unwanted, repetitive thoughts, feelings, sensations, urges, or images, and these cause a very high degree of distress and anxiety, as we mentioned with GAD. The individual with OCD will often attempt to avoid or suppress these thoughts, feelings, sensations, or urges, and they will try to neutralize them using what we call compulsions.  Now there are five different types of compulsionS. A lot of you who have followed Your Anxiety Toolkit will know about these compulsions. We’ve talked about them. We actually go over them extensively in our online course for OCD called ERP School. If you’re interested to learn more about that, you can go to CBTSchool.com. We have a whole array of courses there to help you work through this and get help if you don’t have access to treatment of your own.  We do have five different types of compulsions. The first one is avoidance. The second one is mental compulsions. The third one is reassurance-seeking, whether it be from Google or a loved one. The fourth one is physical compulsions, like checking or jumping over cracks or washing your hands, just to give a few examples. The last one is self-punishment. So there are five types of compulsions.  Now, these compulsions are not connected in a realistic way and the way that they’re designed to neutralize or prevent. They’re usually clearly excessive behaviors done repetitively and done usually from a place of not wanting to do them, but more that the person with OCD feels like they have to do them to reduce or remove their obsessions.  Now, obsessions or compulsions are time-consuming. The frequency here is that they need to take up more than one hour per day or cause a significant degree of distress and impairment in their social, occupational, or other areas of functioning in their lives. The next criteria is that the obsessive-compulsive symptoms are not attributable to physiological symptoms, substance abuse, or a medical condition. Similar to GAD, again, we want to always check for medical and substance abuse issues before we go ahead and get a diagnosis of either GAD or OCD.  And then, last of all, the disturbance is not better explained by another mental health condition. Again, if the worry or the obsession is around needles, like we talked about before, or being judged by somebody else or health conditions—if that were the case, we would give them a different diagnosis. Now, this is also true for trauma. Again, I want to make sure we understand that. Often, this same cycle will play out in different anxiety disorders—PTSD, BFRBs, phobias, health anxiety, BDD (body dysmorphic disorder). Once we have ruled those out, we can then move forward and acknowledge that this might be OCD or it might be GAD.  OCD VS GAD  Now that we’ve gone through all that, we can actually slow down a little and really take a look and talk about OCD versus GAD and how to tell the difference. Let’s break it down.  Both GAD and OCD have intrusive thoughts or what we call obsessions. A repetitive thought. Now, both have the presence of rumination compulsions and reassurance-seeking compulsions. That is true for both conditions.  DIFFERENTIATING GAD FROM OCD OCD tends to be more on irrational topics and subjects, whereas GAD tends to be more focused on daily stresses and rational actual events in the person’s life, but not always. Again, sometimes the person with GAD may engage in a lot of catastrophic thinking or irrational thinking that can actually make this disproportionate to their daily life stresses.  ARE YOUR FEARS INTRUSIVE AND REPETITIVE?  Questions that you might want to ask yourself when you’re considering how to tell the difference between GAD and OCD are questions like, are your worries related to a daily stressor, or are your fears intrusive and repetitive?  People with OCD tend to identify that their thoughts are very intrusive, that they can’t stop them, they’re relentless, they’re repeating themselves over and over, whereas people with GAD tend to find that these are more preoccupations with problems in their lives, and they’re trying to solve them.  ARE MY FEARS REALISTIC OR ARE THEY IRRATIONAL/DISTORTED?  Another question to ask is, are my fears realistic or are they irrational and distorted? That question too can help us differentiate whether your symptoms are more related to OCD or GAD. GENETICS AND GAD VS OCD Another question to ask is, does anyone in your family have GAD or OCD? We know that these conditions are very, very genetic. If you’ve got someone with OCD in your family, it might actually help us to determine, is this something that’s going on for you? Are you better understood as having symptoms of OCD than you are GAD?  GAD TESTS & OCD TESTS Another question or thing you might want to do is, you can take a GAD test or an OCD test. We have specific diagnostic tests that can help determine these. I strongly encourage, if you’re still having a hard time differentiating after you’ve listened to this episode, please do go and speak to a mental health professional who can help you determine and do those tests so that you can really be clear on what you’ve got and help you get the correct treatment. CAN YOU HAVE BOTH OCD AND GAD?  Let’s answer some questions about this topic that commonly come up, which hopefully will help you get even more clarity on this topic. One of the most common questions we get asked in this area is, can you have OCD and GAD? Often, some of you are looking at these criteria going like, “Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.” And the truth here is, yes, commonly, people do have OCD and GAD. There is a very strong GAD-OCD overlap here. So it could be that you have both.  TREATMENT FOR OCD & GAD The good news here, if that is the case, is that the treatment for GAD and the treatment for OCD are very, very similar. In fact, again, like I said, it’s very controversial. Some clinicians say it doesn’t even matter. We don’t have to differentiate between OCD and GAD because the treatment is going to be so, so similar.  We’re going to use a combination of cognitive behavioral therapy and exposure and response prevention. We call cognitive behavioral therapy CBT, and we call exposure and response prevention ERP for short. Those treatments are focused on reducing those safety behaviors or compulsions, such as rumination, avoidance, reassurance-seeking, physical compulsions, and self-punishment, and also encourage you to identify your fears and learn to face them as much as you can. Learn to navigate those fears by experiencing them, tolerating them, being kind to yourself as you ride the wave of distress, and practice mastering your ability to be uncomfortable. That’s a huge piece of this. Also, master your ability to be uncertain, because in both conditions, they often require you to spend a lot of time trying to seek certainty, to get clarity, to solve the fear, and to prevent the fear. And we actually instead work at reducing that by increasing our willingness to be uncertain.  We also have an online course called Overcoming Anxiety and Panic, and we go through the same steps with that. They’re two separate courses because we want to make sure the person feels very understood and feels like they have a really good plan. Again, if you’re interested in that, you can go to CBTSchool.com. We have two courses for specific diagnoses, and that will help you make a plan for yourself. They are there specifically for people who do not have access to or do not have the means to access mental health services. These are self-led, on-demand courses. You can take them as many times as you want to put a plan together for you.  WHAT ABOUT OTHER ANXIETY DISORDERS VS OCD?  Let’s get back to the questions. What about other anxiety disorders vs OCD? Well, what we’ve talked about already—hopefully, we’ll clear that up—is the real way to determine what your specific problem or struggle is, what is the focus of your intrusive, repetitive thoughts? Again, if it’s on your body and your body image, we would look at an anxiety disorder, an eating disorder, or maybe even BDD. If the focus is on your health, we’re going to look towards health anxiety or hypochondria. If your fear is around being judged, we’re going to look towards social anxiety. If your fear is in response to an actual trauma you’ve been through, we’re going to look at PTSD and other trauma symptoms that you might be having. It’s important to identify the core fear, and that can actually help determine what specific struggle and diagnosis you have.  CAN GAD LEAD TO OCD? Another important question that people ask is, can GAD lead to OCD? We don’t actually have a lot of research on this, so it’s important that we recognize that yes, they can overlap, that yes, you can have GAD, and then you can proceed into having OCD. But I wouldn’t actually say that GAD leads to it or causes it. Usually, again, we don’t really have a lot of clarity on what causes OCD, but we do know that there is a genetic component and an environmental component that are contributing to having OCD. Lastly, what’s the difference between having OCD and general anxiety or just anxiety in and of itself? Often, again, we’re going to look at that core fear. Now the thing to remember here is, everybody has anxiety. Everybody experiences anxiety. It is a normal part of being a human. But if that anxiety is starting to impact the functioning and quality of your life, if it’s starting to take up a lot of time, if it’s starting to stop you from being able to do the things you want to do, that’s usually when anxiety becomes what we call an anxiety disorder. When that happens, I’m going to urge you to seek help. There are treatments, there are solutions, and there are practices that can help you overcome this anxiety and get you back to living the life you want to live. You don’t have to live a life where we just accept anxiety at this rapid rate without getting help, skills, and tools to help you move forward. The whole reason I created Your Anxiety Toolkit is because there are tools that can help you navigate anxiety in the most effective, wise, and kind way. So my hope here is that today, as we’ve learned to differentiate the difference between GAD and OCD and even other anxiety disorders, you can then go to get resources to help you overcome those specific struggles and challenges.  Again, if you’re interested, please go to CBTSchool.com. We are also here on Your Anxiety Toolkit, where we have over 350 free episodes to help you navigate these conditions. It is an honor and pleasure to help you with these struggles in your life, and I’m so grateful to be able to do that. I hope that’s been helpful. Have a wonderful, wonderful day, and I’ll talk to you soon.

If you want to live a life according to your values, not fear, you’re in the right place. I am going to give you a detailed look at how you can do this for yourself, but I will also show you how not to do this. Lots of people are talking about this idea of living life according to their values, not fear. I want to really inspire you, highlight the way that you can do this, and also show you how it cannot be done so well. I’ll actually give you some personal experiences. Hopefully, my goal here is to inspire you to live a life where your values lead the way and fear no longer makes your decisions. Your fear is no longer in the driver’s seat; you are. If that’s good for you, let’s go.  Hello, my name is Kimberley Quinlan. I’m a marriage and family therapist. I, myself, have struggled for many years with anxiety. In little ways, anxiety just took away the things I wanted, took me away from doing the things I wanted, showing up the way I wanted, and learning how to live a life according to my values, not fear, has literally changed my life.  Now, my hope here is that I can explain this to you. There have been times where my clients have said, “I’m hearing about this idea of values, but it literally doesn’t make any sense to me. Like, how would I navigate that?” So my hope here is to make it nice and clear, give you some clarity and some directions so that you too can live your life according to your values and not fear.  Now, the thing to remember here is that this idea of values has probably been spoken about in many different modalities, but the one that’s really popular right now that people are talking about is a type of therapy modality called Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. What they do is they talk about values as this idea of principles that govern how you want to act. Again, it’s not being perfect. It’s principles that are going to guide you.  Now, unlike just setting goals, values are never fully accomplished. They’re something that involves continuous behaviors. They’re small baby decisions and little pivots that you are going to make throughout your entire life, and they guide your choices and your decisions according to the person that you want to be, the kind of person you want to see yourself as, or that you identify with.  Now, often when we’re talking about values, the biggest question I get asked is, “How do I determine these values?” Let’s just stop for a minute and just talk about how we’re going to apply this.  As you probably already know, fear is a very, very good motivator, and it’s a driver of behaviors. Let’s say you’re just walking along or you’re at home enjoying your day, and then you have a thought or a feeling of danger, like what if something really bad happens? For you, it will be a specific thought or feeling, but for the sake of just making this really broad, basically, your brain has interpreted, “There might be something wrong. There could be danger. Bad things could happen. I feel uncertain about the future.”  When that happens, our natural human instinct is to fight that fear, run away from that fear, freeze in that fear, or go into people-pleasing mode. We call it the fight, flight, freeze, and fawn response. This is a normal human reaction. We all do it. It’s nothing to be ashamed of. It doesn’t mean that you’re wrong or bad.  If there was actual danger, if there was somebody who was intruding on you or making you uncomfortable and that you were in danger, this 5Fs, the FFFFF approach, is a very appropriate response to being in danger. But when our brain tricks us or sets off the alarm, the danger alarm too fast or inappropriately, we often perceive there to be danger, and we go into a response where we respond to that fear as if it is a real danger, and before we know it, we’ve completely gone in the wrong direction from the way we wanted our day to be.  Again, I might be dropping off my children at school, and I might have the thought, “What if something happens to them today?” I have to make a decision in that moment whether I’m going to respond to that fear, that thought, that feeling as if it’s fact, or if it is just a thought, a feeling, or an experience or sensation.  The first step here is being able to stop and identify when fear is showing up and identify then, “How do I want to respond?” And that’s where your values come in.  What I’m going to encourage you to do once you’ve finished listening to this is go onto Google or whatever search engine you use and Google ‘Values List PDF.’ There are hundreds of them, and they’re going to give you a list of all of the different values that you then may want to think about as things that can guide you in the direction that lines up with the way you want to show up in your life.  Again, think of it like a crossroads. You’re going up to this crossroad; there’s a stop sign. The stop sign says, “There could be danger here.” You have to make a decision. Am I going to take a right or a left, which doesn’t matter, towards fear and trying to resolve that fear, or am I going to make a left where I act according to my values? On these lists that you’ve Googled, you will see an extensive list of ways in which you can respond right now. Some examples of values would be patience, kindness, strength, integrity, and honesty. That’s just a few. Like I said, there’s hundreds of these. And then you can start to decide for yourself which value you want to lead with your step forward. What do they say? Put your best foot forward. That’s what we’re talking about here—the value that you pick is going to be the one that helps you in the long term, is the most skilled response, and is the one that lines up with who you want to be and how you want to be. Again, think of it through the lens of the one-year-old or the three-month-old you. What would you want that person to do? And that’s how we can then start to choose values over fear. So, so important now.  A lot of people get overwhelmed with the list. Let me help you get clear on how to determine the values that you’re going to choose. Number one, pick values that have always led you in the right direction. Do a little inventory on when was the time that I really showed up for myself, or I showed up in a way I wanted to in an uncomfortable situation. What was one of the values that led me in the right direction? Often, with patients, I’ll ask them, “What was a time where you really had to muster through a really difficult time?” And they’ll think about, “Oh, there was this one time where there was this one sort of emergency, or I was running a marathon.” I’ll say, “Okay, great. You were able to achieve that. What were the values that got you through that uncomfortable time?” And there it falls very quickly without even looking at the list. It could be some values that matter to you or that have been effective for you.  Another option is, pick values that give you a sense of purpose that helps you look in the long term, not just with short-term relief, but long-term accomplishment, long-term mastery, and long-term relief. In addition to that, pick a value that feels like it serves you in the ‘you-est you’ you can be. I know that’s a funny way. I say that with my patients all the time, like, “What’s the ‘you-est you’ that you can be? What value would lead you towards the ‘you-est you’ that you can be?” Because we’re all different and we all show up in different ways. We have different strengths and different challenges. So we want this to be very specific to you.  But there is an important thing to remember here. There are no “right values.” You are going to look at this list. And as I did when I first started doing this work, I was like, “Oh my gosh, which ones should I pick?” Often, and this is one of the problems that I found, when I looked at them, I ended up with this long list of all the things I wanted to be. I was like, “Check, check. Yes, I want to be that. Yes, I want to be that. Yes, that’s a value of mine. Yes, that’s a value.” It was kind of like a want-to-be list. I had basically highlighted the majority of the values on the list. They were all important to me.  But what we’re talking about here is, yes, they might be all important to you, but the goal is just pick two or three to start with. What we want to do here is pick two or three that will help you with this specific struggle or problem that you’re working through. If it’s fear and it’s anxiety, well, let’s work on that. But if you’re going through a medical condition, a family issue, a relationship issue, or an academic issue, you can then make a decision on, “What are the two or three values that will help me get through that particular problem?” Another issue that often people ask me about is that theyre getting overwhelmed with this idea of “I want all these things in my life.” What we end up doing is using this idea of values as a way to fix their humanness, that these values work can become a breeding ground for perfectionism. This was the case for me. I was like, “Yes, a good person would check off that one,” and “I wish I was more generous. Yes, I’ll check that off.” It really just ended up making me feel guilty about who I was. I was really picking values based on what I thought a “good person” would pick.  We want to move away from that because, yes, you’re going to look at this list of values as I did and be like, “I want to be all those things. I want to show up in those ways all the time, every day.” But the truth is, you’re a human being. You’re a messy human being, as am I, and we don’t want to overload ourselves with values and these ideas in a way that just is a way of being perfectionistic, hyper-responsible, and overly moral. We want these values to guide us towards being the person we want to be, but we don’t want to pick them with this idea that we have to fix our humanness. We’re still going to be human. We’re still going to make mistakes. We’re still going to hurt people and say things that we wish we didn’t, and we can still go and repair that and show up as best as we can and be the best that we can. But please don’t use values as a way of raising the level so high and the expectation so high that you are destined to fail and destined to feel bad about yourself. We want to be as compassionate and realistic as we can as we do this valued work.  The solution is to be gentle and kind as you peruse these values. Maybe you need to put your pen down and your highlighter down and just take a second to acknowledge that you might not be in a season where you can choose the “good Samaritan” values. You mightn’t be in a season where you can choose some of the values on the list. I know when I was really sick from a chronic illness, and I looked at this values list, generosity was a big value that showed up where I was like highlighting, “Yes, I want to be more generous.” But I wasn’t in a season where I had the capacity to give back. I was in a season where I needed help from other people. And so I had to stop in that moment and look at the list and say, “Given the season I’m in, which of these values will help me recover?” I had to work through a little bit of self-judgment and a little disappointment and sadness that I wasn’t in a season where being generous was the priority, at the top of the list.  You can still be a respectful, compassionate person while you work on whatever struggle you’re working on. Absolutely. It doesn’t mean we’re giving you permission to not be a good person. But we have to be able to prioritize and bring things up to the top, but without discounting or thinking black and white that because they’re not at the top, that makes us a bad person. Just because I couldn’t put generosity at the tippy top of my list and priorities for values didn’t make me a bad person. It just meant that because I was in this season, I had to reprioritize values to get me through this season so I could move on to being in the next season, which might have generosity at the top.  Here is a pro tip with this, and I talked about this before. Find one area that you want to improve, and pick one to two values that might help you course-correct. Just do a small pivot. We don’t want to overcorrect. We want to do just a very slight course correction to start.  Today, we’re talking about choosing values over fear. In this case, it might be a small value. Something that’s there for you that will help you face that fear. That being said, let me also say, if your fear is really loud and really aggressive and it’s hitting you from every angle, you might need to pick a value that’s actually very, very, very important to you, the most important to you, and have just that one thing. Often, and here’s an example—but please, I don’t want you guys to feel you have to use this or feel like you’re a bad person if you don’t use this—a lot of my patients put family at the top of their values when they’re talking about managing their anxiety. If they have an anxiety disorder that’s taken so much from their life, they might say, “My kid is my highest value. And so when fear shows up, I’m going to imagine a picture of my kid, and I’m going to move towards that fear because that allows me to be with that kid,” or that partner or that parent.  Other people might say, “My career matters to me so much that when fear shows up, because I want that career so much, I’m willing to be uncomfortable. I’m willing to ride some big, big waves of discomfort. I’m not going to choose fear anymore when I get to that crossroads; I’m going to choose that one really important fear.” Underneath, there might be a smaller one like compassion, hopefully. But again, you get to choose. You get to choose what’s right for you. This is your journey. Please do not let anybody tell you what your values should and should not be.  Now, one of the reasons that I was so committed to doing this episode today was that I recently have come upon a realization about values that I didn’t know were there, which is that sometimes your values can compete. Now, I talk to my patients about this all the time. That wasn’t the part that shocked me. Let’s talk about what that might look like. Often, people get confused. “Well, if I have these values, what if they compete with each other?” Let me give you a personal example.  For me personally—but please don’t use this as your values unless they line up with your values—I highly value, number one, work ethic and discipline. It is a huge part of how I was raised. I love the fact that I have a very strong work ethic, and I’m very, very disciplined. It is something I hold as a very high priority, has gotten me through some very difficult times, and has allowed me to have the life that I am trying to create. My second value is compassion, and I’m still working on that. It doesn’t mean I’m perfect at it, but it’s still a high value. The third is family—my family. My husband and my children are probably the most important things to me above all. The fourth is my mental health. Now they’re in order, but depending on the day, they will switch, as I’ve talked to you about before. But then patients will often ask me if I share that: “But that doesn’t make sense. If work ethic is a value, but family is a value, how do I make both of those happen? Does that mean I have to choose to be a stay-at-home mom and be with my family? But if I go to work, obviously, I’m not valuing my family. They’re competing with each other.” Some people will say, “I really value rest, but I really value exercise or being strong. How do I make room for both of those? They’re competing.”  The thing to remember here with values is, it’s not always, as I said, in the same order. Throughout our day, because we have to be flexible, we can make room for multiple values at a time, and we can find balance within these values. I can show up to work or right here today and give everything I have, and then still show up for my kids later on. It doesn’t mean I have to give my whole attention to that one value all day, every day, consistently at a hundred percent. Because I value compassion, some days that will mean I take a break, or I value mental health means I don’t have a strong work ethic or be with my kids. I take a drive, I go to the beach, or I take a walk and have some time to myself.  It’s important to recognize that while it might feel like these values are competing, it’s not. It’s about us finding a balance of using them to guide us, but not, again, making them perfect.  Any time, when we’re using these values, when we’re going overboard with them, we want to catch our rigidity in making them the only thing that we do, the only way we think, and the only way we act. We want this to be a flexible, moving target. As we said, values are never finished. They’re never completed. They’re something that we are constantly checking in with ourselves. What do I need? The most beautiful, compassionate question—what do I need? And using values to guide us, not fear—values. Allowing those values to decide what’s important to us, decide how we want to show up, and decide what the future me would want me to do.  Now, this is where I have gotten stuck, and here is where I’ve found a-- how would I say it? A problem. Maybe it’s just me. Maybe it’s just me. But I want to bring it up in case this is true for you too. Now, I’ve already shared with you my core values. There’s work ethic and discipline, compassion, my family, and my mental health. These are all incredibly important to me, depending on the season, the day, the hour, and the minute. But I realized recently that work ethic, while it’s one of my biggest values, is actually partially fueled by fear. I’m holding it as a value, but it’s actually a partial fear response. Let me explain.  Often, and this is something I want you to look out for, fear will dress up as values and pretend to be values when really it’s just fear. Think of it as a Halloween costume. Fear is like, “Oh, I know how to trump this system. I’m going to dress up as a value and show up in Kimberley’s life (or in your life), and I’m going to pretend I’m a value, but I’m actually really fear. I hope she doesn’t catch that I’m actually in a costume and I’m actually really fear. And so I’m going to see if this works.” I do genuinely value work ethic and discipline. Like I said to you before, it has really given me so many beautiful things in my life and has allowed me to show up and serve you guys, and it’s been wonderful. But when I was with a client, we were talking about this exact problem, and I asked them a question, which was, if that value—when we’re talking about values—if that showed up, what would the non-anxious, trusting version of you do in this moment? And they realized that it was not the values they’d been working on. And then I thought, “Oh my goodness. I’m going to actually check in with myself on this, because if I asked myself, what would the non-anxious, trusting version of myself do in this moment, a lot of the time it wouldn’t be work ethic and discipline.” I realized that a small part of my work ethic and discipline is coming from a place of fear that if I don’t stay disciplined, that if I don’t hold my work ethic, everything will fall apart and bad things will happen.  This stopped me in my tracks because—again, I want to reinforce this—my values were being tricked by fear. Fear was actually leading a part of that important value, or maybe I could say it was coming in and taking advantage of that value, and it might do that for you as well.  And so what I want you to think about when you’re looking at values—and again, please don’t put pressure on yourself that you have to get this perfect. It’s a work in progress. I’ve been doing this work for a decade, and only now I’m realizing this—is slow down and just check in on “What would the non-anxious, trusting version of myself do in this moment?” I think that is where we can actually really get to the crux of “What are your values?” Again, they will be ever-changing. Again, we will be forgiving and kind to the fact that we’re still messy human beings. We don’t have to get it perfect. But it did open me up to realizing a value that I didn’t know was so important to me.  When I asked myself this question, I actually realized that the answer is playfulness and stillness—these two values that I’ve never really relied on. As I look back at my PDF of values, I’ve never highlighted them. When I asked myself this question of what would the trusting version and the non-anxious part of me do, playfulness and stillness was the value that rose up to the surface. It was a beautiful moment. I actually cried. Now, from that, and I’m actually going to tell you a little bit of my news, I thought to myself, how could I implement playfulness and stillness into my life where I still value work ethic, compassion, family, and mental health? Into my mind came the image of a Volkswagen bus. Do you remember the old hippie buses? We call them Kombis in Australia. That was what showed up for me. Like, if I could show up in my business from a place of playfulness and stillness, I wouldn’t be working from this office. I would be working from a 45-year-old Volkswagen bus. And so I did. I did exactly that. I went and bought a Volkswagen van. It’s a 1985 Volkswagen Westfalia. I love, love vintage cars. I am actually a car person. I don’t know if you know that about me, but I love vintage cars, and I never allowed myself to really think about doing this. I’ve loved them forever. I’ve looked at them forever. I’ve wanted one forever, but I’ve always thought, “That’s not high on my priority list right now.” Until I realized that if I’m going to move towards trusting myself and honoring this bigger piece of me, playfulness and stillness have to come up on that list as well. So if you live in Los Angeles and you see a gold Volkswagen Westfalia—it has, like I said, 195,000 miles on it—if you see one of those driving around Los Angeles and you see me, please beep your horn. That will be me driving around and parking my van at a beautiful place and working from there from now on, and that is my hope. That is my hope for myself, and I hope that you can use values to discover who you are so that you can be the ‘you-est you’ you can be. I love the idea of implementing values into recovery. That is why I think act is so important as a complementary treatment to anxiety. I think that with some care, compassion, and some thoughtfulness, you too can identify the values that are important to you and learn to live and act from those values, not fear. I hope that has been helpful for you today. I have had so much fun chatting with you about values. I am sending you so much love. Do not forget, it is a beautiful day to do hard things. I will see you next week. Have a wonderful day.

Perfectionism anxiety almost destroyed my life. If you are someone who suffers from perfectionism, you know exactly what it’s like to be stuck in the perfectionistic trap. It’s hell, quite frankly. We’re here today to talk about how to overcome perfectionism and how to create a life where you can still succeed. You can still do the things you want just without being constantly anxious and depressed and never feeling like you’re enough.  Hello, my name is Kimberley Quinlan. I’m a marriage and family therapist. I’m an anxiety specialist, and I personally have walked the walk of perfectionism and have had to overcome it as it was starting to severely impact my life. I am so excited to be here with you today to talk all about perfectionism and perfectionism anxiety.  Now I am 15 years recovered from an eating disorder. I was personally completely overwhelmed with perfectionism anxiety, and I was in a perfectionism trap. So, let’s talk about it. First, let me give you a little bit of a personal update or a background. When I went off to college, I was really naive. I was wise and smart, but I had no idea what I was getting myself into. I had lived at home with my family on a rural farm, on a ranch, if you live in America, for my entire life. And then I went off to what was considered the big city for college, and I felt like I had to be perfect.  I had this belief as soon as I left my family that if I could be perfect, I would be safe. I would be emotionally safe. I would be physically safe, and as long as I could keep everything perfect, nothing bad would happen.  I also believe that if I could be perfect, people would not abandon me, disprove of me, or judge me. And so, I went out of my way to make sure everything was as perfect as I could make it, even though I understood that I wasn’t perfect. I was on a mission to try and get to the top of that hill and stay at the top of that hill. It was a protective measure, a safety behavior I engaged in to manage the anxiety and overwhelm I felt going off to college.  I also believe that if I could stay perfect, it would protect me from really uncomfortable emotions like shame and guilt, and it would help me feel like I’m in control. I would try to give myself a false sense of control in a world where I felt very out of control. THE PERFECTIONISM TRAP Now, a big part of this was me understanding what we call the ‘perfectionism trap.’ The perfectionism trap is, yes, when you start perfecting yourself and perfecting your life, you start to get praised from people around you. You start to get rewarded for your perfectionistic behaviors. My grades started to improve because I was being perfectionistic. My bosses gave me extra shifts because I was so good at my job.  But the problem with that is, as I was getting better and trying to perfect everything in my life and please all of the people, I started to feel overwhelmed with all that I had taken on. In addition to that, once I had gotten to this ‘perfect place,’ which again, I totally understood that I wasn’t perfect, but as I started to climb that mountain and get to the peak and start to have the relief of anxiety that I made it, I’m at the top, I’m doing really well, then I started to have the influx of anxiety. “What if I can’t maintain this? What happens if I make a mistake and fall off this perfectionism mountain that I have climbed?” And then I was constantly anxious and constantly feeling hopeless about the fact that I can’t maintain staying at this high level for as long as I was.  This is the perfectionistic trap. The more you try to become perfect, the more pressure, stress, and anxiety you feel. The more hopeless you feel about being able to maintain that, the more depressed you feel that you’re stuck in this cycle, and all of a sudden, nothing is worth it. Often, people completely fall down. They can’t go on in this way. They burn out, they get sick, which happened to me, or they become so paralyzed with anxiety that they have to avoid things and start telling little white lies just to get through the day because they’ve built up this idea of being perfect on the people around them. If you’re experiencing this, you’re not alone. Please do not feel bad about this. This is a common experience, particularly if you’re someone who’s set up for anxiety.  PERFECTIONISM ANXIETY SYMPTOMS OR SIGNS Let’s go through some additional perfectionism anxiety symptoms or signs. The first one is, people with perfectionism have a severe fear of failure. They’re overwhelmed by the idea that they might mess up, they might make a mistake, and when they do make a mistake, they see it as a failure. Not a blip on the road, not a challenge that they will learn from, but it’s that they are a failure, that their mistake and their failure mean that that person is. In fact, their identity is a failure, and that can be incredibly emotionally painful. Another perfectionism anxiety symptom is shame and vulnerability. There is so much shame around making mistakes or being seen as vulnerable, weak, not perfect, or not keeping up with the Joneses. And that can be so emotionally painful that that’s what propels them into continuing perfectionistic behaviors, pushing themselves harder than they can maintain, putting them or raising their hands in situations that they really honestly shouldn’t be saying yes to. They don’t even have the capacity for what they’ve already signed up for. You may know the quote that says, “If you want something done, find the busiest person.” That’s commonly the perfectionist because they’re the ones who can get jobs done and they’re willing to put their own mental and physical wellness aside to get the job done. Another sign of perfectionism often shows up at work. When you have perfectionism anxiety, work can become very frustrating or depressing, and this is often, again, because of the expectations you’ve put on yourself. You associate work with being an incredibly stressful environment because, as you walk into work, you’re bringing in these expectations. You’re bringing this goal of being perfect and not making mistakes. And that can create an incredible amount of anxiety and distress.  It also creates, as I said, a lot of depression, hopelessness, or helplessness because often people with perfectionism are suffering in silence. They don’t feel like they can share with other people how much they’re suffering or how they’re succeeding. They make it look maybe even so easy, but underneath they’re really struggling, and they don’t want people to find out. They feel like that would be letting other people in on the lie that you’re actually not the person that you’re perceived to be. Another really important sign is this ongoing fear or belief that I’ll never be good enough. This deep-down belief that you don’t have the worth of just being who you are, that you have to show up being more and more and more in order to be respected, to be loved, to be accepted by people. And that can be incredibly stressful. PERFECTIONISM AND PROCRASTINATION A big overlap is between perfectionism and procrastination. Again, as I said, when you raise the bar so high, often the only thing that people can do is to avoid the thing because they’re overwhelmed at the prospect of making a mistake. They’re overwhelmed by the expectations they’ve put for themselves. They go into a freeze mode where they can’t even move forward. It’s too overwhelming. Their nervous system is shutting down. They’re having an increased heart rate, tightness in their chest, nausea, stomach issues, muscle aches, headaches, and migraines. And so, because of that, they just procrastinate and keep pushing, pushing, pushing the deadline away. Often, when I see someone, they have been told they’re not perfectionistic because they’ve procrastinated and avoided so long. A professional or a doctor has said no, that you can’t be perfectionistic because you’re not getting anything done. But often, those who are avoiding are more perfectionistic than the people who they know are succeeding. It’s the heavy layer of expectation that causes them to stall and avoid moving forward in any way.  Now, when you suffer from perfectionist anxiety, relationships can also become really strained. Really common imperfectionism is people pleasing, or the fear that you have let people down. You spend a lot of time worrying about what they think of you. In addition to that, it’s not just worrying about what they think of you. Often, people with perfectionism become highly judgmental of their loved ones, their friends, their children, or their partner. They may also become easily annoyed when other people can’t maintain that perfectionism. Often in relationships, if there’s a person with perfectionism and their partner is struggling, the person with perfectionism gets quite frustrated because, in their mind, they’re like, “Just be perfect. Get it fixed. Fix it. I’m doing all the perfectionistic behaviors; why can’t you?” And that can cause an incredible amount of strain on the relationship. They also might experience a degree of anger, frustration, and irritability. And that’s not because they’re horrible people; it’s because they’ve raised the bar and the expectations so high to be perfect that even if their loved ones are struggling by association, they feel like that’s jeopardizing their perfectionism. And this is a really common thing that comes into couples counseling. Once they get there, the relationship has been so strained without identifying that perfectionism could be a massive driver behind their relationship issues.  IS THERE A PERFECTIONISM ANXIETY DISORDER? Now there is something to note here. There is no such thing as a perfectionism anxiety disorder. A lot of people are searching for those terms to see if this is, in fact, a disorder. But there are common disorders such as eating disorders, generalized anxiety disorder, and OCD that do co-occur with perfectionism.  PERFECTIONISM OCD Now, there are specific types of OCD, one of them being perfectionism OCD. That is a specific subtype of OCD where the underlying force towards the compulsion is perfectionism, and it’s often coming from a place of anxiety and uncertainty. Usually, people with perfectionism OCD, they’re not doing their compulsions or safety behaviors from a place of wanting to; they usually feel like they can’t stop doing them. They feel like they’re stuck in a loop of doing these behaviors even though they don’t want to. This is very common alongside other subtypes, like just right OCD, symmetry OCD, and moral and religious OCD as well.  PERFECTIONISM VS PERFECTIONISM OCD Now, often people do ask. Let’s weigh it out. Perfectionism versus perfectionism OCD, how do we know the difference? Well, a thing to remember here is that often perfectionism is what we call ‘ego-syntonic,’ meaning it’s in line with their values. They want to be perfect. It’s a driving force to be perfect. It actually reduces their discomfort by moving in that direction.  For those with perfectionism OCD, it’s actually ego-dystonic, which means they don’t want this obsession. It’s intrusive. It’s repetitive. They really don’t believe in the point of perfectionism, but they feel compelled to engage in this behavior, and they feel like they can’t stop engaging in this behavior.  Now I want to really slow down here because that’s not always true for everybody. I’ve often seen where clients will have a combination of the two, or maybe on a spectrum, they might be closer to the perfectionism OCD end, but they do still have some ego syntonic perfectionism that’s showing up. So, I want to make sure that if you are having these perfectionism symptoms, go to a mental health professional so you can work out specifically what’s true for you. So that’s an important point to make here. Please don’t misdiagnose yourself here. This perfectionism can also show up in PTSD. It can show up in depression. It can show up in other disorders as well. I want us to use this as information, but please do not use this as a way to diagnose yourself. PERFECTIONISM OCD TREATMENT Now if you do have perfectionism OCD, there is a specific OCD treatment that is helpful for that. For those of you with perfectionism, I’m actually going to go through that right here in a second. But first, let’s just address that OCD treatment usually will involve a type of cognitive behavioral therapy called ERP (exposure and response prevention).  Now, in this case, we actually expose you to being imperfect on purpose. We have you practice reducing your safety behaviors and compulsions around perfectionism so that you can practice riding the wave of discomfort, uncertainty, or anxiety, and learn that by riding that wave, you can actually tolerate that discomfort and move on without engaging in behaviors that make your life more stressful. It often involves saying no. It often involves slowing down. It often involves, again, being imperfect on purpose.  HOW TO STOP BEING A PERFECTIONIST But now let’s move over to how you can stop being a perfectionist and how you can overcome perfectionism if that is in fact what you’re dealing with.  I again want to share with you, I get how painful this is. I worked through this for close to a decade, and I still see it come up. I still see it show up in my life where I have to catch it. It shows up in a way that’s sneaky and it feels, in my experience, as it’s a powerful feeling when you’re engaging in perfectionism, but I also notice that when I’m starting to feel really burnt out and really overwhelmed and my anxiety and depression are going up, it’s usually because I’ve allowed that sneaky perfectionism to get into my life more than I would’ve wanted to. OVERCOMING PERFECTIONISM So when we’re talking about overcoming perfectionism, here are a few things that were really helpful for me.  Identify how perfectionism keeps you trapped Number one is, identify the ways that perfectionism is keeping me trapped. For me, when I had an eating disorder and a lot of perfectionism, I actually had to do a deep study on how it was impacting my life because, as my therapist was trying to get me to change these behaviors, I was showing up with a lot of restriction and a lot of resistance. I did not want to stop. I said to her, “I’m not ready to get rid of these behaviors. They keep me safe. They keep me feeling like I’m in control. I don’t want to feel out of control. I don’t want to feel imperfect. I don’t want to feel shame. I don’t want to feel vulnerable. I don’t want to take these behaviors away.” But as I looked at how they were impacting my life, I then started to realize how they’re actually keeping me trapped and holding me back.  Explore how society encourages perfectionism The second piece was, I had to then do a deep exploration and look at how society had encouraged me to maintain my perfectionism. I had people all around me cheering me on. “Good job. Keep going.” “You’re so thin. Look at you thrive.” “You’re so successful. I can’t believe how you do it.” “I’m so impressed. You inspire me.” I was constantly fed reinforcement. That kept me trapped in perfectionism and made me want to stay in perfectionism, but kept me anxious, kept me feeling like I was a complete fraud, kept me feeling like I was an imposter who, if anyone would ever find out that I’m actually this imperfect, terrible, hopeless human being with no worth, I couldn’t bear the idea of that, And so, I really had to look at how society had fed me into this system as a woman, but also as a human being and as a young person, how this had kept me stuck, and how it was going to keep keeping me stuck if I didn’t start to change some things.  Determine how YOU want to live your life Now, the next thing I had to do is really look and determine how I wanted to live my life, and that was really influenced by my personal values. What was important to me? Is my uncle’s opinion of me or my coworker’s opinion of me more important than my own opinion of me? I used to first say yes, but with practice and really looking at it, I started to realize I’m going to die with everyone thinking I was perfect and I’m going to die miserable. I wouldn’t have done the things I wanted to do. I was living a life based on what other people thought of me and living a life basically hiding from all of my feelings, which brings me to the next big, big, big point of my recovery.  Learn to feel your feelings If I could say one thing was the most important in my recovery, it would be this: I had to learn how to feel my feelings, and I had to be willing to ride out some really uncomfortable feelings that I had about myself. I had to write out shame and still do. I had to write out feelings of being worthless, and still do. They still show up, and when they do, I instinctually go to run away from them, and then I have to slow myself down and say, “Kimberley, just stay. Be here with it. Running from this emotion, patching it up, or making it look pretty is only going to keep you trapped and create a life where you’re more and more and more anxious.”  Develop a self-compassion practice I also had to develop a very strong self-compassion practice, but that actually came last for me. I’m really doing my best with my patients and with you here today to have that be a beginning part of your recovery. But for me, I refused it. I hated the idea, and I didn’t want to do it. I felt it was weak, and I actually thought it would override my perfectionism and make me into some kind of weak loser who can’t control their life, and all these words, like, I’ll be a failure, I won’t be successful, it’ll make me lazy. I had a whole belief about what self-compassion would do to me. But with time, I did start to see the benefit of it. And again, it’s something I still have to work on.  Understand that this is a life-long process of recovery I had to also recognize that this was a lifelong practice. I do remember, and I will share a story with you, that early in my perfectionism treatment, I actually stopped treatment. I told them, “I’m fine. I’m doing great. I don’t need you anymore,” and off I went. A part of that was me, because I think I was really afraid to do the next level of work, but I think another part of me truly thought that that was all it took. But then, as I struggled with different stresses in my life, or as it continued to show up in my relationships and at my work, I realized this is a lifelong practice. This is something I’m going to need to practice for some time.  BELIEFS THAT WILL HELP YOU OVERCOME PERFECTIONISM Now, before I finish up with you, I want to share with you some beliefs that I had to adopt to help me overcome perfectionism, and I had to remember these every step of the way. Now, I was really lucky I had a therapist who would reinforce this with me every single week, but maybe you don’t. And so, I wanted to just be here to share them with you, just in case they’re helpful with you managing your own perfectionism. So, here they are.  IT IS OKAY TO MAKE MISTAKES  The first belief I had to adopt is, it’s okay to make mistakes. It’s human to make mistakes. I also had to reframe what a mistake meant. As I said before, a mistake didn’t make me a failure anymore. Instead, a mistake was data to help me learn and challenge this problem I was having. And now I’ve done my best. I’ve even done episodes on Your Anxiety Toolkit, talking about how I went out and purposely made mistakes a hundred times in less than a year because I still realized I had to challenge this idea that getting a no, getting rejected, or making a mistake is a problem. IT IS OKAY IF PEOPLE DO NOT UNDERSTAND ME OR LIKE ME Another thing I had to adopt is, it’s okay if people do not understand me or like me, and this one still breaks my heart. I’m not going to lie, it’s still really, really hard for me. But it is important to recognize that most of the time, you can be imperfect, and people will still make space for you. It is okay to not be perfect. In fact, I have learned the more perfect I tried to be, the more disconnected I was with people. The more perfect I tried to be, the more I sabotaged relationships. I made other people feel judged and uncomfortable. I made it feel unsafe for them to be imperfect, therefore impacting our ability to be vulnerable and in deep connection with each other. WHEN I AM IMPERFECT, I BECOME MORE CONNECTED So by being imperfect, I actually learned that the real relationships started to show up, that I could be vulnerable, and then they would be vulnerable. And I would feel seen, and they would feel seen. And then I would feel worthy and they would feel worthy. And it healed itself in that respect through the relationships, through showing up imperfectly in relationships and letting them see that I’m actually struggling. I’m actually really having a hard time.  I remember talking to my therapist and saying, “Nobody would know.” Nobody would know that I’m having such a hard time. But when I actually started sharing, other people started sharing, and I realized that I didn’t have to be perfect because nobody was getting through this life without going through their own struggles and challenges. MY WORTH IS NOT RELATED TO MY OUTPUT Another really important thing I had to adopt is that my worth is not related to my output. And this is one I still have to remind myself that I do not deserve self-care and kindness just because I kicked butt at work today. That I’m allowed to have compassion, self-care, and pleasure, whether I was successful, made money, or achieved the things on my to-do list. That I’m always deserving of self-care and pleasure. That that is something innate inside of me and that I can use at any time if my body needs it. LISTEN TO MY BODY. IT IS WISE And then the last thing I had to adopt was truly listen to your body. Stop pushing through discomfort in a way where you know that you’re pushing your body too hard or too fast. I would say yes to everything, even if my body was exhausted. I had to learn to listen to my body and listen to when my body was gently nudging me, saying, “Stop. I’m tired. I need to rest.” That is still something I’m working on and something that I’ll always have to be working on as I age and as my limitations change as well. So that’s the things I want you to adopt to help you overcome depression. Now, you may have some other things that you need to adopt as well, and that’s okay. I want you to make this as personalized as possible. But I do hope that this, number one, validated you and your perfectionism anxiety. I hope that it informed you of ways that it shows up for people. And third, I hope it gives you some inspiration that you too can overcome perfectionism anxiety and depression, and hopefully go on to live a very fulfilling life.  Have a wonderful day, everybody, and always remember it is a beautiful day to do hard things.

What if I never get better? This is a common and distressing fear that many people worry about. It can feel very depressing, it can be incredibly anxiety-provoking, and most of all, it can make you feel so alone. Today, I’m going to address the fear, “What if I never get better?” and share tools and strategies to stay hopeful and focused on your recovery. If you have the fear, “What if I never get better?” I want you to settle in. This is exactly where you need to be. I want to break this episode down into two specific sections. So, when we are talking about “What if I never get better?” we’re going to talk about first the things I don’t have control over, and then the things we do have control over. That will determine the different strategies and tools we’re going to use. Before we do that, though, let’s talk about first validating how hard it is to recover. Recovery is an incredibly scary process. It can feel defeating; it can feel, as I said, so incredibly lonely. When we’re thinking about recovery, we often compare it to other people’s recovery, and that’s probably what makes us think the most. Like, will I ever recover? Will I get to be like those people who have? Or if you see people who aren’t recovering, you might fear, “What if I don’t recover either?” even if you’re making amazing steps forward. It can be an exhausting process that requires a lot of care, compassion, and thoughtful consideration. Most of all, recovery requires a great deal of hard work. Most people, by the time they come to me, are exhausted. They’ve given up. They don’t really feel like there’s any way forward. And I’m here to share with you that there absolutely is, and we’re going to talk about some strategies here today. Now, that being said, while all of those things are true—that it is hard and distressing and can be defeating—I wholeheartedly believe that recovery is possible for everyone. But what’s important is that we define recovery depending on the person. I do not believe that there is a strict definition of recovery, mainly because everybody is different, everybody’s values are different, and everybody’s capacity is different. So we want to be realistic and compassionate, and we want to make sure our expectations are safe and caring as we move towards recovery. Let’s talk about what that might look like. Again, it’s going to be different for every person.  WHAT IF I DON'T GET BETTER FROM OCD?  If we’re talking about recovery for OCD, let’s say we’re going to be talking about what’s realistic. Again, what’s compassionate? So, if someone comes to me and says, “I want my goal of recovery to be never to have anxiety and never have intrusive thoughts ever again,” I’m going to say to them, “That sounds really painful and out of your control. Let’s actually work at controlling your reaction to them instead of trying to tell your brain not to have thoughts and not to have feelings, because we all know how that works. You’re going to have more of them, right?” But again, the degree in which you recover is entirely up to you. WHAT IF I DON'T GET BETTER FROM GENERALIZED ANXIETY DISORDER?  Recovery for anxiety or generalized anxiety is going to be the same. I am probably going to use me as an example. I have generalized anxiety disorder—it doesn’t stop me from living my life as fully as I can. It’s still there, but I’m there to gently, compassionately respond to it and think about how I can respond to this effectively. I think I’m genetically set up to have anxiety, so my goal of recovery being like never having anxiety again is probably not kind; it’s probably not compassionate or realistic. WHAT IF I DON'T GET BETTER FROM DEPRESSION?  Recovery for depression—again, it’s going to look different for different people. Some people are going to have a complete reduction of depressive symptoms. Other people are going to have a waxing and waning, and I consider that to still be a part of recovery. It might be that your definition of recovery is, “As long as I’m functioning, I can take care of my kids, and I can go to work and do my hobbies.” If that’s your definition of recovery, great. Other people might say, “My definition of recovery is to make sure I get my teeth cleaned, go to the doctor once a year, and have an exercise schedule,” and whatever’s right to them. Really, again, I want to be clear that you get to decide what recovery looks like for you. I’ve had people in the past say, “I’ve considered my recovery to be great. I’m not ready to take those next extra hard steps. I’m happy with where I am, and I’m actually going to work at really accepting where I’m at and living my life as fully as I can, whether these emotions or these feelings are here or not,” and I love that. WHAT IF I DON'T GET BETTER FROM HAIR PULLING AND SKIN PICKING?  Recovery for hair pulling and skin picking—another disorder that we treat at our center in Calabasas, California—might be some reduction of those behaviors. For others, it might be complete elimination, but you get to decide. WHAT IF I DON'T GET BETTER FROM MY CHRONIC ILLNESS?  I know that for me, the recovery of a chronic illness was not the absence of the chronic illness. It was getting in control of the things I knew I could control and then working at compassion, acceptance, care, support, and resources for what I could not control. So I really want to emphasize here first that we want to be respectful. I want to be respectful of your definition of recovery before we talk about this fear specifically related to “what if I don’t recover.” Some people have the fear that they won’t recover, and that might be valid because they’ve put their expectations so high that the expectation in and of itself causes some anxiety. WHAT DON’T I HAVE CONTROL OVER?  So let’s talk about it first. We’re going to first talk about what I don’t have control over, and this is what we’re talking about here in regards to how I manage this fear.  Now, the first thing to do when we’re talking about what we don’t have control over is, we don’t have control over the fact that we have this fear. Of course, this fear is coming up for you because you want to recover, you want to live your best life, and you deserve that. You deserve to have a life where you go on to succeed in whatever definition that means to you. But we can’t control the fact that your brain offers you the thought, “What if I don’t recover?” We don’t have control over that, so let’s try not to stop or suppress those thoughts. We know that with research, the more you try and suppress a thought, the more often you’re going to have it. The other thing we don’t have control over, and I actually mentioned this before, is, we have to acknowledge our genetics and acknowledge that genetics does have a play in this. I’m never going to probably be someone who is anxiety-free. My brain comes up with some ridiculous things. My brain loves to catastrophize. My brain loves to find problems where there aren’t problems. That is my brain. As much as I can work at eliminating how I react to that, I’m probably not going to stop that entirely. So I’m going to accept that I don’t have control over my genetics, and that’s okay. A quick note here too is, if you do have anxiety and it is a part of your genetic—DNA, your family team tends to have it—also catch your anger around that. You’re allowed to be angry; you’re allowed to be dissatisfied or have grief about that. But we also want to catch that as well. Again, we do have to just acknowledge that no one has control over their genetic makeup. The third thing to remember here is that recovery is a series of valleys and peaks. That we do not have control over. Some people have extreme fear that they will never recover because they believe or were led to believe that recovery should be this very straightforward recovery process where you go from A to B, there’s no peaks and valleys, and it’s all straightforward from there. We do have to accept that it is normal. Recovery will always have peaks and valleys. It will always have highs and lows. And that actually doesn’t mean you are relapsing or anything bad is happening. I actually say to my clients a lot of the time, and I often will demonstrate to them as I’ll say, “You’re in the messy middle. You’ve started recovery, so you’ve made that huge step. You’ve gone through that chapter where you’re learning and you’re ready for it, and you’ve educated yourself and you’re prepared. And now you’re starting to make some strides. You’re seeing where you’re doing well. We’re also seeing where there’s challenges. You’re in the messy middle, and this is where valleys and peaks, ups and downs are going to happen. Our job isn’t to beat you up when you’re in a valley or a low; our job is to stop and just inquire, nonjudgmentally, what’s going on? What can we learn from this? What could help me with this if I were to navigate this in the future?”  This has been a huge piece of my work managing a chronic illness because I could wake up tomorrow and not be able to get out of bed, but today I feel like I’m full of energy and all good. It’s completely out of my control sometimes. On the days where I don’t feel like I can get out of bed, my job is to recognize that this is normal. This doesn’t mean it’s going to be forever. Can I be gentle with myself around this hard day and not catastrophize what that means? So, there are the three things we can’t control.  WHAT DO YOU HAVE CONTROL OVER?  Now we’re going to move over to the things we can control. There are actually seven of these things, and we’re going to go through them, and they will inform the tools and strategies you are going to use when you’re handling the fear, “What if I don’t ever recover?” HOW DO I RESPOND TO THIS THOUGHT? Number one, something that we do have control over, is: how do I respond to this thought? Now, you must remember, the fear, “What if I don’t recover?” or “What if I never get better?” is actually just a thought. It’s not a fact. It’s not the truth. It’s a thought your brain is offering to you, and we want to thank it for that thought because your brain’s trying to help you along. It’s saying, “Just so you know, Kimberley, there is a small possibility that you won’t recover. What can we do about that?” But if you have that thought and you take it as a fact, like you won’t recover, or recovery is not in your future, and you respond to it that way, you’re going to probably respond in a way that increases anxiety, increases depression, increases hopelessness, and isn’t kind or effective. So we want to first acknowledge, okay, in this present moment, maybe it’s Tuesday at 9:30 in the morning and I’m having the thought “what if I don’t recover,” knowing that on Tuesday at 9:40, I might be having different thoughts, which is again evidence that thoughts are not facts. They’re fleeting. They’re things that show up in our minds. We can decide whether to respond to them or not. Now, what we want to do when we do have this thought is respond to it in a kind, compassionate way. For those of you who know me and have followed me for some time, I’m always talking about this idea of a kind coach. The kind coach would say, “Okay, I acknowledge that’s a thought. Okay. What do we need to do? Kimberley, you’ve got this. Keep going. Keep trying. You know you’ve done this valley and this peak before. What did you do in the past that was helpful? What did you do in the past that wasn’t helpful? Great, let’s do more of that.” The kind coach cheers you on. It’s there to encourage you. It’s there to remind you of your strengths.  HOW COMPASSIONATE ARE YOU TOWARDS YOURSELF  It’s not there to bring your challenges and use them against you, which brings us right to tip number two, which is, you have 100% control over how kind you are to yourself throughout the process.Actually, let me renege that maybe not a hundred percent because I know a lot of you are new to the practice of self-compassion, and sometimes we do it without even knowing. So let’s also be realistic about that as well. Forgive me. We can really work at changing how kind we are to ourselves when we have that thought. Let’s say you’ve been through the wringer. It’s a very Australian frame or quote, but you’ve been through the wringer, which means you’ve been through a really tough time, and you’re thinking, “I only have evidence that things go bad or things get worse.” A kind coach, your compassionate voice, or your compassionate self—that compassionate part of you would be there to offer gentle, wise guidance on what you need to do for the long term to move you forward. Again, that compassionate voice will validate how hard it’s been. It will not invalidate you. It will say, “I understand it has been hard. I understand that this is really, really challenging.” It will also offer you kind, effective, wise ideas for what you could do in that moment. Sometimes the kindest thing we can do is just acknowledge the thought and keep going. Sometimes the kindest thing we can do is to say, “No, brain,” or “No, anxiety,” or “No, I’m not buying into this today. Thank you very much for offering it to me, but you do not get to determine where I’m headed. I get to determine where I am headed.” So, compassionate reactions aren’t just gentle. Sometimes they’re quite assertive and they’ll say, “No.” Sometimes they might even swear, like, “Bug off, anxiety. I’m not dealing with you today. You’re not going to tell me what to do. You can come along for the day’s ride. I know I can’t get rid of you. I know it’s out of my control to try and get rid of you, but you will not determine what I’m going to do today. You’ll not get to tell me that my life will be bad, or my life will be terrible or unsuccessful, or I won’t have recovery.” You get to stand up to fear in that way and let that then inform the actions you take from there. HOW MUCH TIME ARE YOU DEDICATING TO RECOVERY?  The tip or tool number three is, also take a look at how much time you’re dedicating to recovery. I’ve had patients who’ve come to me really struggling with this fear that “what if I never recover?” We actually find that they’re not engaging enough in the recovery skills and tools throughout the day. It’s sort of like going to the gym. If I went to the gym for an hour, once a week, yes, I would have some improvements, but to really maintain those improvements, I do need to be doing my homework, my stretches, my walks, and my weight training in a way that’s effective and not overdone throughout the week. So a lot of you, if you’re struggling with this, be gentle around this question, because we don’t want to overdo it either. But we may want to check in and say, “Let’s be strategic here.” I know that in our online course—we have an online course called Time Management for Optimum Mental Health. It’s a course to help people schedule and manage their time so that they can prioritize mental health and other things they have to get done. There are other priorities, chores, and things they have to do. We often talk about, let’s put mental health first. Have you scheduled it in your day to do your homework if you’re doing ERP? Have you done that? Have you scheduled a time or an alarm to go off to remind you to sit and journal, do some self-compassion practice, or meditate? For me, a big one from my mental health is an alarm to say, “It’s time to leave the house. You need to get outside.” I work from home. I’m often indoors with my patients. “It’s time for you to go outside.” That is important for your long-term mental health or your medical health. And so, it’s important that we are very strategic and effective about scheduling. I call it calendaring. We calendar recovery-focused behaviors. That is something you do have control over. Again, you do not have control over the fact that the fear is here. You don’t have control over whether it will return tomorrow, but you do have control over your recovery and the steps you take, acknowledging that there will still be peaks and valleys. It will not be perfect. One thing I want to stress to you—and I shouldn’t laugh because it’s actually not funny; it’s actually very serious—is that so many people start recovery and get perfectionistic about it, which is often why they’re having the fear “what if I never recover,” because they’ve told themselves there is this one way that they are going to recover and that it again shouldn’t have peaks and valleys and it should be this way, and I shouldn’t be hijacked by any other things. But the truth is, life happens along the way. You might be cruising along with recovery for your specific struggle, and then all of a sudden, a life stressor happens, like COVID. Here in LA, my husband works in the film industry. There’s a huge strike happening. It’s a huge stressor for a lot of families. It’s been going on for months. A lot of families. I have all kinds of stresses—financial, relationship, and scheduling struggles. Life does happen, and so we have to be gentle with ourselves on the times when our recovery isn’t going to the speed we would’ve liked because of the life hiccups that happen along the way that slow our progress. When that happens, we can gently encourage ourselves that we are doing the best we can. We’re going to be okay with the fact that it’s a little slower. We’re going to let ourselves have our emotions about the fact that it’s slower than we would’ve liked, and we’re going to gently just keep taking one step at a time in the direction you want to go in. HOW WILLING AM I TO RIDE THIS WAVE OF DISCOMFORT? Now the fourth thing you want to remember here, and something that is in your control when it comes to the fear “What if I don’t recover?” or “What if I never get better?” is how willing am I to ride waves of discomfort? This question is key, you guys, and will determine a huge degree of how speedy your recovery is. Maybe it’s not even speedy. For some people, it’s speedy, but for others, it’s how deep the recovery process goes. I know for me that I often will try to get things to move along nice and fast and on schedule and so forth, but I’ve really missed the true meaning, which is, have I actually learned how to be with myself when I’m uncomfortable? Have I actually slowed down and really had a degree of willingness to be with whatever discomfort it may be—tightness in my chest, racing thoughts, not in my throat, an upset stomach? Am I actually willing to allow that to be there AND still moving in the direction towards my long-term wellness? Often, when discomfort comes up, we’re like, “I don’t want to feel this. I don’t want to have this experience.” And that’s often when we engage in behaviors that keep us stuck and keep us out of recovery, keep the disorder going. We know that when we engage in behaviors like compulsions, avoidances, and mental rumination, that often just keeps us stuck and keeps us cycling on the same anxiety and the same disorder. The big question: How willing am I to ride this wave of discomfort? You may want to even put it on a scale of 1 to 10. You might say, “Out of 10, how willing am I to ride this wave? 10 being the most, 1 being not at all.” I always say to my patients, and I’ve said it here before, we want to be up around the 7s, 8s, 9s, and 10s. Even 7 is fine. It’s all fine, but we’re looking for 8s, 9s, and 10s here of how willing you are to really, truly just allow discomfort to be there and observe it as it’s there and not engage in it again, as if it were a fact. HOW ACCEPTING AM I OF THE UPS AND DOWNS? Number five is, how accepting am I of the ups and downs? Now, we’ve talked about this, the peaks and the valleys. When you’re going through peaks and valleys, how accepting are you of that? Or when they happen, are you like, “No, this shouldn’t happen. I don’t like it. I don’t want it. It’s not fair”? I want to validate you. That response is normal and human, but we want to be careful not to stay there too long because when we’re there, we’re actually not moving forward. We’re then often so much more likely to beat ourselves up, put ourselves down, and compare ourselves to other people. What we want to do is just gently accept. I understand. I validate that this is hard and that we may have taken a step back, and I do accept that. I take responsibility for that in the most compassionate way, and I’m still going to stand up and keep moving forward. It’s like that song. I may be aging myself here, but they say, “I get knocked down, but I get up again.” He talks about how nothing’s going to get him down. This is what recovery is. You get knocked down; you get up again. Maybe it should be your theme song—you get knocked down, you get up again; you get knocked down, you get up again. And that is so brave. I celebrate any of my clients or any of my students when they say, “I got knocked down, but I got back up again.” That is so powerful. So courageous. So resilient. I just have all the words to say. I celebrate anybody who is willing to get knocked down and still get up again. So I hope that you can practice that for yourself.  HOW PATIENT AM I WITH THIS PROCESS? Number six is, how patient am I with this process? A lot of these are similar, I know, but patience is actually something I talk with clients about all the time. Often, particularly when they have the fear, “What if I never get better?” it’s often because they’re struggling to really connect with patience. They’re doing the actions. They’re engaging in their homework. They’re moving forward. The only thing that’s getting in the way is they’re losing patience with the process.  This takes time, guys. Changing your brain takes time. It is a long-term process. Just like any muscle that you’re building, whether it be bicep curls, quadriceps, or your brain, it does take time. We do have to practice the mindfulness of being patient, steady, and slow, letting it be a process. I know, I hate it too. No one wants to be patient. It would be so much easier if it just happened fast, and you’re probably seeing other people where their successes happen faster than yours. But again, go back to: how willing am I to be uncomfortable? How accepting am I of my ups and downs? How can I be accepting of my own genetic makeup and the way that my brain responds? How patient can I be with myself in this process? AM I ASKING FOR HELP?  And then that brings us to tip number seven, which is, are you asking for help? Please, guys, as you navigate recovery and as you navigate the fear that you won’t recover, please do not hesitate to ask for help. Ask for support. Ask for resources. We have over 350 episodes here at Your Anxiety Toolkit. They’re there to support you, to cheer you on, and to celebrate your wins. There are therapists there who are there to help you and guide you. We have a practice in Calabasas, California, where we help people move towards their values as well. There are clinicians in your area. If you don’t live in California, we have a whole range of vaults of online courses, if you’re needing more resources or reminders.  A lot of the people who take out online courses at CBTSchool.com actually have been through treatment, but taking a course helps remind them of the core concepts. “Ah, yes. I needed to remember that. I forgot about that.” It’s okay. The courses are there. You can watch them as many times as you want. They’re on demand. Again, you’ve got unlimited access. They’re there to encourage and support you and push you towards the same concepts of moving towards your definition of recovery.  They’re the seven tips I want you to think about. We are here to encourage and support you as best as we can and give you those strategies and tools. But the big question again is, are you putting them into practice? Please don’t listen to this podcast and go on your way. The only right way that this podcast will truly help is if you put the skills, the tips, and the tools into practice. I always say it’s a beautiful day to do hard things, and I really believe that. So I hope today has been helpful. We have really gone over what is in your control and what is not in your control. Please focus on the things that are in your control, and I hope you have a wonderful, wonderful day. I’ll see you next week.

[00:00:00] If social media causes anxiety, you will find this incredibly validated. Today, we are covering the nine reasons why social media causes anxiety and depression, and we will get specific about how you can overcome social media anxiety and depression. In a way that feels right to you, so let's go. If you hear yourself saying, social media gives me anxiety, you are not alone. In fact, many people say it gives them such overwhelm and panic they just want to shut it down completely. That is a common experience, and I want to provide a balanced approach here today. So, let's first look at some social media stats. Research shows that people use an average of 6.6 social media networks monthly. When I heard that, I thought that couldn't be true, but I counted the ones that I use, and it is. I thought that was [00:01:00] very interesting. That sounds like an incredibly massive amount of social media networks. But the average time spent on social media daily is two hours and 24 minutes, not weekly, daily. While 67% say they have a drop in self-esteem as they compare their lives to others they see on social media, 73% of people report. They also find solace and support in these platforms during tough times. We all experienced that during COVID-19, and I know that as someone who lives in America but is Australian, social media has allowed me to be friends with people from high school & college; I get to be connected with my parents' friends. I have found it to be an incredibly beautiful process, but today, we're looking specifically at how social media impacts our mental health, particularly how it causes anxiety and depression.  Now [00:02:00], we have some social media depression stats here as well. We do have research to show a link between social media use and depression. More than three hours on social media daily does increase your risk of mental health problems.  This study was done specifically for teens, but I think as adults, we could all agree that's probably true as well. There are also some social media addiction statistics that we want to know. We know that 39% of social media users report being addicted to social media, meaning they want to get off but can't. Or, they experience adverse experiences and consequences when they're not using it in moments of distress and needing to regulate. We may also look at some social media anxiety disorder statistics. Studies showed that around 32% of teenagers say social media increases their anxiety and hasn't had a [00:03:00] negative impact on people of their age.  However, I found it interesting that only 9% believed it was the case for themselves, but they believed that for others. Interesting statistic. 67% of adolescents report feeling worse about their own lives after using social media, and most teenagers say that social media has had neither a positive nor a negative effect on themselves. So, we are getting some mixed statistics here. The real point for you is to decide for yourself. Is it helping me, or is it hindering my mental health? And if it is, let's discuss some skills we can use. So here we go.  NINE REASONS SOCIAL MEDIA CAUSES ANXIETY We have nine reasons social media causes anxiety. Now, to be clear, this needs to be scientifically backed. I did a review from people on Instagram. It's funny how it's a social media platform. Still, I did interview them and did a poll and also have a question box where they get to put [00:04:00] their specific reasons why some social media has impacted them negatively. And here are the results.  SOCIAL MEDIA COMPARISON So, the number one reason social media causes anxiety is comparison. Social media comparison seems to be the biggest reason for increasing anxiety and depression, and I think it's important that we identify how social media comparison impacts us. Now, what I've found as a clinician and a marriage and family therapist in helping people with anxiety is how often social media reinforces untrue beliefs they have about themselves. Or, we could say negative beliefs that they had already.  Examples: I'm not good enough.  I'm not doing enough.  I'm not happy enough.  I'm not making enough money.  I don't have enough followers.  I'm not succeeding enough.  And that constant, having it in your face of what they're doing and seeing their highlight reels makes us feel like we're not doing enough [00:05:00] and maybe bringing up the insecurities that we aren't enough.  So, it's really important that we first use social media as an opportunity to take a look at those beliefs and those thoughts. What thoughts does social media bring up for you? Are the thoughts true? Are they helpful? Do they determine facts, or are they just feelings and thoughts you've had on a whim because of your anxiety?  When we look at those thoughts, we can then determine whether we want to respond as if those thoughts are true. It's also important to recognize that people only post what I call their “A-roll.” They don't post their B roll. They don't post their C roll. They only post the highlights. They post the things they're most excited about. They post the things they want you to think about. No one wants you to see their dirty socks, laundry, meltdowns [00:06:00], and relationship struggles.  People are talking about that on social media, but even those people, we can't assume they're not showing us, you know, only the good stuff. It could be that they're also showing, you know, only the good stuff.  FEAR OF BEING JUDGED BY OTHERS Now, we can move on from there and look at the number two reason that social media causes anxiety and depression, and that is the fear of being judged by others. The truth is that social media can cause social anxiety, which is the fear of being judged, humiliated, and shamed publicly. I'm going to really encourage you guys to use social media as an opportunity to practice letting people have their opinions of you. One thing I have learned. Being on social media a lot and being a public figure in many, you know, this small area that I'm a public figure in is I've had to learn how to let people have [00:07:00] their opinions about me. I've had to give them permission not to like me. I've had to practice allowing the right in writing the wave of discomfort that I'm not for everyone. The truth is, when we are on social media, we have to face the fear that our opinions may upset people.  People may say things about or critique us, which may impact how we feel about ourselves. I've been through a lot of therapy here, so I can speak about this a lot. I'm okay with people not agreeing with me, not liking me, or understanding me. I've gotten really good at allowing them to have their feelings and thoughts about me. I'm going to have my feelings and my thoughts about them too. Does that mean I don't care about what they think? Absolutely not. I deeply care what they think, but I have learned not to let it imprint how I show up on social media [00:08:00] and how I feel and think about myself. TROLLS The number three reason that social media causes anxiety is trolls. Getting bullied is a huge piece of social media; we see it daily. I have been trolled. People have insisted on taking me down for years, and I have, through what I just talked about, learned to give them permission to really not like me. I've even considered their opinion and really thought about, “Do they have a point?” How can I look at this from a place of compassion? Is it true? Is what they're saying? Factual In many cases, no. Right. Um, the truth is, hurt people hurt people. So, the people online who are saying horrible things usually come from a great deal of hurt, harm, and pain. That doesn't mean I'm saying it's okay that they're doing this behavior. [00:09:00] We must also recognize from a place of compassion that most trolls out there are doing it, not because they're happy, fulfilled people, but because they're on a mission to take people down with them. And that really helps me to be compassionate and not take on their opinion, um, and allow it just to be a part of social media and not take it personally right now.  FEAR OF BEING CANCELLED The fourth reason social media can cause anxiety is the fear of being canceled. You may see that these points are growing on each other. Cancel culture is a thing, folks, and I get it. It is scary out there. Many of you say that being on social media, even commenting on your friend's posts, creates the fear that you might say something that will offend them and cause you to get canceled [00:10:00] Maybe you feat that on a whim, you say something or you make a joke that causes you to get canceled. This is a widespread one as well. A lot of folks who weighed in were saying that this is a true fear for them. As someone who has come head to head with this, what was really helpful for me was actually to write down a cancel campaign of my own, which is like, what is the worst thing someone could say about me, you know? What would it, what would they say? Sometimes people will say negative things, which doesn't hurt my feelings, and sometimes I'm afraid they'll say certain things that would really hurt my feelings. I use that as an opportunity to look at those and ask, why are those things so important to me? Is it my values? Is there something about that where I was taught to be ashamed of those qualities as a child? Am I afraid of how people will stand up for me? Or am I afraid of how I will handle this sort of public shaming that goes on.  [00:11:00] It was a super helpful experiment that I did with a therapist to really help me get to the bottom of what the fear is, um, and go from there. Of course, I won't say anything mean on social media. I'm not concerned about that, but I am worried at how people will go out and attack me, because it has been something that I've dealt with in the past, and it sounds like it's something that's bothering you guys as well. FOMO Now, we move on to number five. The fifth reason that social media causes anxiety is FOMO. The fear of missing out is a real thing. If you fear missing out, social media can make this so much worse because you will often see other people going off to college, and you see somebody else starting a job in their hometown. You might be thinking that maybe I should have done that. Maybe that the fear of you're missing out on that opportunity. Perhaps you chose to go [00:12:00] to the movies, and then you see a social media post about other people who decided to go to a party, or maybe you went to the movies not knowing there was a party, and then you had deep hurt feelings about not being invited. These are true real emotions, and I want you to slow down for all of these points, but especially this one and give yourself a ton of compassion. And understand that social media does have everybody's a-rolls, and it will mean tou will have emotions. Normal human emotions like jealousy, envy, anger, and resentment. That is a normal human emotion. When we're on social media, we judge ourselves for the emotions we feel about what we see on social media. I shouldn't be judging them. I shouldn't be jealous. I shouldn't be angry. I wanna give you permission to acknowledge and feel all of those feelings [00:13:00] 'cause they're normal human experiences. SOCIAL MEDIA HIGHLIGHTS NEGATIVITY The sixth reason that social media causes anxiety and depression is that social media highlights negativity.  Many of you said that you have tried your best to turn off the news. I don't sign onto the news apps, but other people post about things that frighten me when I go on social media. Shootings, global warming, politics, religion, and they were saying that this really creates a lot of anxiety and stress on their nervous system as they just want to have some fun on social media and have a few laughs and watch a few baby dogs and kittens. Have a little fight over a piece of string or something. I get it. I've had that same experience, too. It's the end of the day you're thinking, “ah, I just want to check out and do a little deep breath and then zone out on social media, " yet you're faced and [00:14:00] bombarded with negativity. If that's the case, and this goes for all of the points we're making, do an intention check as you log on to social media. Check in. Do I have the capacity to see things I don't want to see when you see them? Have I got the discipline to turn it off if it's unhealthy for me? It is really, really important piece that we have to remember here. Similar to that.  SOCIAL MEDIA TRIGGERS MY ANXIETY DISORDER The seventh reason social media causes anxiety is seeing things that trigger my anxiety. A lot of you said that you go on social media, and lo and behold, your exact fear shows up in somebody's feed, right? Maybe you're afraid of spiders and they've posted a photo of a funny spider, or maybe you're afraid of throwing up or getting sick. Someone's posting about getting cancer and having to be admitted into the hospital. I know [00:15:00] personally, when I was sharing about, you know, all of the medical issues I was having in 2019 and 2020, a lot of people were so kind and so loving, and some people actually reached out and said, I am so incredibly triggered. What's happening to you right now is literally my worst fear coming true. And so I get it. Again, we have to do an intention check when we go on social media and be prepared to see what we don't want. Right? One thing to know here, too, and this is a skill I want you to take on or more, it's actually a strategy, is you can train the algorithm to do what you want it to. So, as you've probably already experienced, if you wanna see more videos of dogs, Google or search for dogs and it will start to show you more, particularly if you watch the video from start to end. You can also click on specific content. When you see something you don't want to see, you can click a button and say, see less of this, [00:16:00] or block this topic, or block this hashtag. And that can be a way to help you keep your social media clean. Right. Another thing to remember here and going back to seeing other people's a role, is you can actually mute your friends. They won't even know if what they're doing is too triggering and it's causing you so much depression, right? Because we do know that social media can cause depression. It's okay to take a break from them, particularly if they're in your face a lot with all their successes and wins. You can mute them. You don't have to unfollow them or block them. You can mute them, so you're still remaining friends. They still know that you're important to them and they're important to you, but you don't have to be seeing their content. You can take a break and set healthy boundaries with social media so that you're not continually being bombarded by what they're posting. That goes with things that trigger you as well, anxiety-wise. Now, the eighth thing that causes [00:17:00] social media, um, to cause anxiety is perfectionism. Now I've put two things in one here, which are perfectionism and exceptionalism.  Perfectionism is the hope to be perfect and not make mistakes. The truth is, on social media and off social media, you will make mistakes. You're not going to be perfect, and you have to bathe yourself in a ton of self-compassion when engaging on social media and giving yourself permission again to be imperfect is to let it be a little rough. You don't have to be perfect and make it curated. And all the things some people posted about how they even had anxiety about what graphics they use, um, how they're making their posts, whether they line up perfectly, whether the music is exactly the right thing. Again, just be real. No one wants to be friends [00:18:00] with perfect people. Believe me, I have found much more success on social media being a normal human being who is imperfect and is just regular old Kimberly. And yes, there are perfectly polished accounts, but you have to ask yourself, is that helpful for my social media? Maybe what they're doing is good for their mental health. Is it good for me? 9. SOCIAL MEDIA CAUSES OVER-STIMULATION Right now, the last one, the last point on why social media causes anxiety is overstimulation. This is a big one, and I finished with this one for a reason is social media posts are made to keep you on the platform. That's how they make money. The posts that get sent to you and are suggested to you are so short, fast, and funny because they're promoting the exact videos and campaigns that will keep you engaged. But the problem with that is if you're [00:19:00] engaging and consuming content that is fast-paced, short, the content is very quick and it changes 1, 2, 3, 4, really, really fast and example would be TikTok, it actually will leave your nervous system quite overstimulated. This is a problem, folks. The overstimulation. How social media content is delivered to us increases people's anxiety and stress levels. It increases the chance that they engage in safety behaviors such as compulsions because you put the phone down and you're literally vibrating from overstimulation. I'm going to encourage you again to do a check-in. Is this good for me? Does this makes sense.?Are the benefits outweighing the negative? And a lot of the time the answer is no. How do we fix this?  A lot of it that I have found is around setting strong [00:20:00] boundaries with social media. I created a course called Time Management for Optima Mental Health, and a reason for that wasn't because of social media; it was because many people with anxiety and depression tend to engage in behaviors that make their anxiety and depression worse. What we do in this course is work at scheduling the healthy behaviors first and then building your day around that. If social media is a problem for you, we're going to set some limits and intentionally put some parameters and boundaries in to help you manage your mental health.  Other resources include that most phones have a shut off time or an alarm that will alert you to when you've gone over or you have spent too much time.  Some phones also will give you a usage report. [00:21:00] I know my iPhone sends me a usage report every Sunday. Kimberly, your social media uses up by such and such a percentage. Or it's down, or you know, you're within your limits if you set limits for yourself. I know my daughter set a social media limit for herself because after a certain amount of time, she was getting overstimulated, and she was starting to feel lethargic and crappy. And then she wanted not to eat, exercise, sing, or do the things she loved to do. And that was an effective move on her part very, very wise. Another thing to remember is many phones. Well, all phones will have an app. There are many apps you can access that will shut your phone off so that you actually cannot access that social media app or pro platform once you've used a certain amount of time. And if you are someone who struggles with boundaries and really disciplined in that area. Go ahead and get [00:22:00] those apps. Invest in them because they will be better than therapy that you get. Maybe, probably not, but it will contribute and complement your therapy in that you've invested in this tool to help shut down. These apps if they're not helping you. Now, once again, I'm not saying all social media is bad. Again, social media has lifted me out of depression in many cases. When I was having a lousy day showing me funny things, you know, me passing back, . Funny, you know, reels between my husband and I is a way for us to connect when he's at work, when he's away, or when he's upstairs and I'm downstairs. It's not all that. It's about being intentional and checking in on what's helping you. What's not, it's going to be different for every person. So truly listen to yourself and go from there. Now, as I always say, it is a beautiful day to do hard things, and what that means [00:23:00] is setting limits is hard. It's not fun. It actually takes a lot of willpower. So do employ your support systems, ask for help, get a therapist if you need one, who can help you implement some of these tools. As always, I hope this has been helpful, and I look forward to talking with you next week.

Am I doing ERP correctly? This is a common roadblock I see every week in my private practice. I think it is a common struggle for people with anxiety and OCD. Today, we will talk about the three common OCD traps people fall into and how you can actually outsmart your OCD and overcome it. https://youtu.be/Ngb_lQK5Fnk?si=9FU42GZZZDJ58f-W Now, when we're talking about Expsoure & response prevention ERP, we must go over the basics of ERP therapy, so let's talk about what that means before we talk about the specific traps that we can fall into.  ERP is exposure and response prevention. It's a specific type of cognitive behavioral therapy and is the gold standard treatment for OCD to date.  And it's a detailed process, right? It's something that we [00:01:00] have to go through slowly. It's a detailed process where we first identify OCD obsessions and OCD intrusive thoughts. So, you'll identify precisely the repetitive, intrusive, and distressing things for you. Once we have a good inventory of your OCD obsessions, we then identify what specific OCD compulsions you are doing now. A compulsion is a behavior that you do to reduce or remove your anxiety, uncertainty, or doubt, or any kind of discomfort that you may be experiencing. And once we do that, then we can move towards exposing you to your fears. Exposure therapy for OCD involves exposing yourself to those specific obsessions. And then engaging in [00:02:00] response prevention, which is the reduction of using those compulsive safety behaviors. Now, common OCD response prevention will involve reducing physical behaviors, reducing avoidant behaviors, or reducing thought suppression. It's reducing reassurance, seeking, reducing mental compulsions, and in reducing any kind of self-punishment that you're engaging in to beat yourself up for the obsessions that you're having. Then we get you engaged back into doing the things you love to do; getting you back to engaging in your daily life, your daily functioning, the things that you find pleasurable, and your hobbies as soon as possible.  That's the whole goal of ERP. Right?  The important thing to remember here is that ERP therapy for OCD is greatly improved by adding in [00:03:00] other treatment modalities, such as acceptance and commitment therapy or mindfulness-based cognitive therapy, DBT, and medication.  I should have mentioned medication first because most of the science shows that that's one of the most helpful to really augment ERP therapy for OCD. If you want to go deeper into that, I strongly encourage you to check out Exposure and Response Prevention School. I'll show you how to do all of those steps in ERP school, our online course for OCD. You must know how to do those steps and that you're doing them in a way that's careful and planned so that we're not overwhelming you and throwing you in a direction that you're not quite prepared for; you don't have the tools for yet. And so today, I wanted to discuss three questions that come directly from people who've taken ERP school [00:04:00], and they're really trying to troubleshoot these three common OCD traps that OCD gets them stuck into. So, let's get to the good stuff now.  OCD TRAP #1: IF I DON'T ENGAGE WITH AN OBSESSION, AM I THOUGHT SUPPRESSING?   What if I don't engage with an obsession? Am I thought suppressing? One of our listeners said, “I know what you resist persists. We talk about that in ERP school, but I also know that obsessive thinking and worrying can become compulsive. Is it possible I could be caught in both situations, and how common is this?”  So I want to really be clear here in what we're saying when we say to practice ERP. So when you have an obsession or the onset of an intrusive thought or intrusive feeling, sensation, urge, it could also be an image. When you have that,[00:05:00] you're old way of dealing may have been to try and push that thought away with some urgency and aggression.  We call that thought suppression and that's an avoidant compulsion, so yes. This student of mine is correct. That becomes compulsive, right? But we also know if we go into the obsession, try and figure the obsession out, give it too much of our attention. We're also engaging too much with it in terms of using mental compulsions. That too is a compulsion. So we want to see that these two things can happen. But when we have the thought, and we observe that it's there the obsession, we've noticed it's there. Right? We talked about this in previous episodes of your Anxiety Toolkit podcast. When you identify it's there and then you say, I am gonna let it be there and still move on. To what you love to do, [00:06:00] what you value that is not resisting it, that is engaging back into what you find important and effective, and valuable for your life. It's not avoidance, it's not thought suppression. Now, if you do that in a way where you're like, oh, I don't want that thought. I want to engage in what I'm doing. Now you're crossing into that reaction being with . Urgency and resistance, and anytime we're doing anything in a sense of urgency and resistance, well, yes, it may be becoming a compulsion, right? And what we're talking about here, the way to manage this trap, right, is to find middle ground, and it often involves slowing. Down being a little more thoughtful in how you respond, and that's often using mindfulness. We talk a lot about mindfulness here in your, your anxiety toolkit [00:07:00] in observing, okay, this is happening. I. I'm going to respond in a way without urgency, and I'm going to come back to what I'm practicing. That isn't thought suppression. It's also not avoidance. It's also not doing a mental compulsion or ruminating. It's what we call occupation. You're engaging back into what you need to be doing. Right, which brings me right to trap number two, which is did I expose myself to the thought enough?  OCD TRAP #2: DID I EXPOSE MYSELF ENOUGH TO THE FEAR?  The fear, “Did I expose myself enough to my fear?” and, “if I dont engage with an obsession, am I thought suppressing? These are two very close obsessions. But, there's a nuance difference that I want to ensure we address here. So the student says, right now when anxiety sets in, I divert my attention to something else to focus on my values. Beautiful. Right? Then usually anxiety will wear off pretty quickly and I choose to move on. The problem is what happens next? So, so far this is beautiful. [00:08:00] Just like what we said they go on to say, my mind immediately points out the fact that I didn't quote, unquote, savor the anxiety or look it in the eye, right? And that they're doing that to prove they're not scared of it. Or that they can they can tolerate it, right? And so they go on to say, “OCD accuses that my diversion wasn't in fact occupation or being functional and effective, that it was avoidance and, and that I'm avoiding to deal the anxiety feeling that I have. And they then go on to say, this makes me more scared of the intrusive thoughts in the long run.” So, if we were to break this down, this person had a thought, they responded really effectively. But then, this is the trap. OCD will usually tell you there's a way you're doing this wrong or there's a way that there's an additional thing you haven't addressed yet. It usually [00:09:00] is like you who I have more to say, have you thought about this? Like it's saying, you know, there's other things you should be worried about. And in this case, they have dealt with it really beautifully. But then OCDs come in and said, no, you didn't look at it long enough. You didn't face it enough. If you don't face it enough, well then you're gonna keep having this anxious feeling in the long run. And really in that situation, all we need to do, I. Is practice exactly the same tools we use with the first obsession, which is to go maybe, maybe not, but I'm not tending to you. I'm not trying to make this perfect. I'm going to move forward with what I am going to do and allow the uncertainty that I may or may not have anxiety about this in the future, or I may or may not have looked my fear in the face enough, right? Remember here that O C D. Is always going to try and bring you back into doing [00:10:00] a compulsion to try and get that uncertainty. And your job is to catch the many ways OCD consistently pulls you out of using effective behaviors and tries to get you to use compulsions. If you can find those trends, you can identify them as, okay, we know what to do when they come. When it tells me I'm not doing it enough, or I'm not looking at my fear enough, or I'm avoiding it, or whatever, you can go, I'm not tending to that. I'm moving back to my values. Right. Which beautifully now brings us onto the final trap, trap number three, which is, how do I know I'm doing ERP correctly? OCD TRAP #3: HOW DO I KNOW IF I AM DOING ERP CORRECTLY?    People often ask, “How do I know if I am doing ERP correctly?” This is a very common one. In fact, I have consulted with dozens of different OCD therapists, including the ones in my private practice. For those of you [00:11:00] who don't know, I have a private practice in Calabasas. We have eight incredible licensed OCD therapists. We are constantly consulting on this kind of question or these traps in particular, and it's often around, how do I know I'm doing this right? And it makes sense, right? If you're doing ERP therapy, you want to get better, you're here to get the job done, and you want your life back. You're not putting in all this time and paying all this money and investing your valuable resources, um, to just . Have a good time and waste it, right? You're here to get better. And so it makes sense that you're going to have some anxiety about how well you're doing it, and you're obviously wanting to do it well, like you're someone who is thorough and is invested, so it makes sense that you're going to have this fear. But this is the thing to remember. This is another trap of OCD to try and get you to go back to rumination, right? To try and figure something out. [00:12:00] Here is the facts. No one does ERP correctly. You are going to do ERP, and you are going to fall and you're going to try again, and you're going to fail again, and you're going to try again, and you may fail again. That is a normal progression of ERP. I tell my patients all the time, you're not backsliding. Nothing is particularly wrong right now. This is just the normal progression that we get better over time. Just like when we're learning to walk. You stand up, you fall down. It's not like you say, I'm not able to walk, I'll never be able to do it. You get back up, you walk three steps, you fall down, then you get back up, you walk five steps, you fall down. That's normal, right? We are not going to say to a young baby like, oh, you're not walking correctly. You know, this is bad. You're never gonna be able to walk because you're not walking correctly. No, we're going to say to them, keep going, keep trying. Just keep trying. And with time, those muscles will strengthen. And you'll be able to stand up and do this work a little longer each time, but do not fall into the trap [00:13:00] of O C D telling you it has to be done perfectly and you have to do mindfulness correctly, and you have to do response prevention correctly, and you can't do any thought suppression or you'll never get better. That is another trap, and your job is to say, good one, OCD. Thank you for your input, but I'm still over here with the focus of not trying to engage in rumination and trying to get certainty, but to, to move towards my values, to allow fear to be there imperfectly, right imperfectly, knowing that it won't be perfect every time. You may engage in some compulsions. I'm going to keep saying that that is not particularly a problem. Right. Especially if as you're doing it, you're using your tools and you're doing the best you can, try to just focus on doing one minute at a time and doing it as you can. And we're not here to do it perfectly. Right? And at the end of the day, if you're someone who struggles [00:14:00] with this thought, like, am I doing it correctly or am I doing it perfectly? You can just say, “Maybe I am. Maybe I'm not. I'm also not getting caught in that trap.”  So I hope that that has been helpful to really get to know these traps. And for you, it mightn't be specifically these three common traps. It may be something a little different. That's okay. Your job is to catch these trends, the things that keep pulling you back into rumination, pulling you back into avoidance, pulling you back into reassurance-seeking, and identify them. Come up with another plan. Again, if you need more help with this, you can use E R P school. It's an online course. It's on demand. You can listen to it and watch it as many times as you want in your PJs. It's there for you to troubleshoot these issues. We have a whole bunch of modules talking about how to troubleshoot these issues, but I wanted to do this publicly because I knew A lot [00:15:00] of you who don't have access to care are probably struggling with the same thing. So that's it for me today. Thank you so much for being here. I love talking with you about the nitty gritty of how this can, you know the real hard stuff and I hope it's been helpful for you. Please do remember, and I say this at the end of every podcast episode, you know I'm gonna say it. It is a beautiful day to do hard things.  Do not let society tell you that you're weak or that you're not supposed to. And it should be easy because that's not real life. I know it's hard to accept that, but we can shift this narrative to a narrative where we can do hard things. We can see ourselves as strong. We can see ourselves as courageous, and we will do the hard thing because in the long run, we build resilience and freedom that way. Have a wonderful day, everybody, and I can't wait to see you next week.​[00:16:00]

If you are interested in stopping compulsions using attention control, this is the episode for you.  I am really excited for this episode. This was a deep dive into really how to fine-tune your mindfulness practice for anxiety and OCD. Today we have the amazing Max Maisel, who is an OCD and anxiety specialist here in California. He came on to talk about these really nuanced differences of mindfulness, where we might go wrong with mindfulness, how we can get a deeper understanding of mindfulness, and this idea of attentional control. The real thing that I took away from this is how beneficial it can be at reducing mental compulsions, putting our attention on the things that we value, putting our attention on what we want to put attention on, not in a compulsive way at all. In fact, we addressed that throughout the episode, and it’s just so, so good. I’m so grateful to you, Max, for coming on, and I just know you guys are going to love this episode. Now, we are talking about some pretty difficult things, like things that are hard to do. I even roleplayed and explained how hard it was for me to do it. I want, as you listen to this, for you to please practice an immense amount of self-compassion and recognition and acknowledgment of just how hard it is to do these practices and how we can always learn more. Hopefully, something in this episode clicks for you and feels very true for you and is hopefully very, very beneficial.  I’m going to go take you straight to the show because that’s what you’re here for. Have a wonderful day everybody, and enjoy this interview with Max Maisel.  Kimberley: Welcome. I am so excited for this episode, mainly because I actually think I’m going to leave learning a ton. We have the amazing Max Maisel here today. Welcome. Max: Thank you, Kim. It’s really good to be here. I’m super excited for our conversation. MINDFULNESS FOR OCD  Kimberley: Yeah. Okay. You know I use a lot of mindfulness. I am a huge diehard mindfulness fan, but I love that you have brought to us today, and hopefully will bring to us today, some ways in which we can drop deeper into that practice or zone in, or you might say a different word, like how to focus in on that. Tell me a little bit about how you conceptualize this practice of mindfulness and what you use to make it more effective for people with anxiety and OCD. Max: Yes, for sure. So, I’m a major proponent of mindfulness practices. I use it myself in my personal life. I integrate it in the clinical work that I do with clients with OCD and anxiety. But one of the concerns that I’ve seen in my clinical work is that mindfulness is such a broad concept and it covers so many different types of psychological suffering. The research behind mindfulness is just like hundreds, maybe even thousands of studies. But when it comes to very specific and nuanced concerns like OCD and anxiety, it could be a little bit confusing for people sometimes to figure out, “Well, how do I apply this really healthy, beautiful, amazing tool to how my own brain is wired in terms of like sticky thoughts or just to engage in all sorts of compulsive behaviors.” I like to think about mindfulness from Jon Kabat-Zinn’s definition at the core—paying attention to the present moment in a way that’s non-judgmental and with this curious intentionality to it. But then within that, there’s some really nuanced details that we can talk more about how to make that really relevant to folks with OCD and anxiety. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ATTENTION & AWARENESS Kimberley: Tell me a little bit. When we’re talking about mindfulness, we often talk about this idea of awareness. Can you differentiate first—and this is using some terminology just to set the scene—can you differentiate the difference between attention, awareness, and even a lot of people talk about distraction? Can you share a little bit about how they may be used and what they may look like? Max: I love that question. I think in a good OCD treatment, people really need to have a good solid understanding of those differences. I’m actually going to borrow from a neuroscientist named Amishi Jha. She’s this incredible professor at the University of Miami. In her research lab, they look at the neurological underpinnings of mindfulness, and that very much includes attention and awareness. I highly encourage anybody to look up her work. Again, it’s Amishi Jha. She talks about attention or focused attention. If you imagine there’s a dark room, and if you turn on a flashlight and you shine that beam of light into that room and say that beam of light hits a vase on a table, again, what happens to that vase? What’s different compared to all the things in the background? Kimberley: Is that a question for me? Max: Yeah. If you imagine a beam of light, what goes on with that? Kimberley: You would see the front of the vase, maybe it’s a bit shiny, or you would see the shadow of the vase. You would see the colors of the vase. The texture of the vase. Max: That’s exactly right. From this vivid and detailed, you can see all the different descriptions of it and it becomes privileged above everything else in the room. That vase is that beam of light. And then somebody might take that flashlight and shine it to the right a little bit, and then it goes from the vase, let’s say, to a chair next to it. All of a sudden, that vase is still there, but it’s fallen into the background. We might call that our awareness, which we’ll talk about in a second. But then that table that we shine on or the chair is now privileged over the vase. That’s how you can think about focused attention, is this beam of light. Whereas awareness, instead of a focused beam, you can think about that more as a broad floodlight where it’s effortless, it’s receptive, and you’re noticing what is present in the moment without privileging one thing over the next. We’re not focusing or hooked on anything particular in that room, it’s just observing whatever comes up in the moment. Does that make sense? WHAT IS DISTRACTION?  Kimberley: It totally makes sense. Excellent. What about distraction?  Max: Distraction, when we think about that broad floodlight of awareness, where again, where what’s privileges the present moment, distraction is trying to get things out of that. It’s trying to suppress or not think about or get something that is in your awareness, outside of your awareness. But unfortunately, the trap that people fall into is in order to get something out of your awareness, what you need to do first is shine your beam of attention onto it. Inadvertently, while it might seem like a good idea in the short term, especially if it’s something really scary, that pops up in your awareness like, “Oh, I don’t want this. I want to get this thing out of my awareness.” But in doing that, you’re literally shining your attention. That flashlight is right on the scary thing. The very act of trying to distract, trying to push it away actually keeps that thing going, which is why it can be so easy and so tricky to get stuck in these pretty severe OCD spirals by doing that. Kimberley: Right. If we were talking about mindfulness, and let’s go back to that, are attention and awareness both parts of mindfulness? Give me how you would conceptualize that. Max: That’s exactly right there, and that’s what I was talking about where mindfulness is such a beautiful, helpful practice and term. But oftentimes when we say just mindfulness, people don’t understand that there are really relevant parts of mindfulness that are actually applicable skills that we can practice getting really good and solid without shining that beam of light and focusing flexibly on aspects of our experience. We can get good at letting go of that focused attention and just being with what pops up in our awareness, which are very relevant practices when we have OCD or anxiety. But if we just say mindfulness as a whole, paying attention to the present moment, we could miss these really important nuances and actionable skills that are different parts of mindfulness. Kimberley: Let’s go deeper into that. Let’s say you have OCD or you have panic disorder, or you have a phobia, and your brain-- I was talking with my son who has anxiety and he was saying, “I keep having the thought. No matter how many happy thoughts I have, it just keeps thinking of the scary thought.” That’s just a really simple example. How might you use attention versus awareness or attention and awareness for folks who are managing these really sticky thoughts, like you said, or these really repetitive, intrusive thoughts? Max: It’s such a good question. OCD, I always talk about how clever and tricky it is. In order to get through OCD, we need to be even more clever, more tricky than OCD. One of the ways OCD gets people to fall into its trap is by confusing them. It gets people to try to control things that they cannot control, which is what pops up in their awareness, but it also blinds people and gets them that they can’t see that there are things that are in their control. That will be really helpful, powerful tools, and OCD gums up the works a little bit.  MINDFULNESS & ATTENTION TRAINING To be more specific, there’s an aspect of mindfulness that we can think of as attentional training or attentional flexibility. What that is, it’s strengthening up the brain’s muscles to be able to take control of that flashlight, of that beam of focused attention. OCD, what it’s going to do, it steals it from you and shines it on the really scary stuff, like with your son, “Oh, here’s a thought that you really don’t like,” or “Here’s a really uncomfortable sensation.” All of a sudden, that beam of light is shining there. What attention training does, it really teaches people to be able to first notice, “Oh, my beam of light is on something really scary. Okay, this is a thing. This is a moment to practice now.” But then more importantly, to be able to then take power back and be able to shine that flashlight in flexible ways that are in line with people’s values and goals versus are in line with OCD’s agenda. But attention training, it’s not only getting really good and powerful at shining that beam of light on what you want to shine, but it’s also the practice of letting go of control over the stuff that’s in our awareness. We’re going to practice and allow those scary thoughts and feelings. I treat them like a car alarm going off where it might be annoying, might be uncomfortable, but I’m not going to focus on them. I’m not going to pay attention to it, because otherwise there’s going to be front and center.  It’s both. It’s awareness, it’s being able to flexibly shift between different aspects of our experience, and it’s also allowing things to go, and you’re like that broader floodlight of awareness. I always find it really helpful to practice the skill of attention training on non-OCD, non-anxiety neutral stimuli. It’s not too triggering. And then we can start applying that to anxiety. If it’s okay with you, Kim, I would love to walk you through some quirky little easy exercises that just help you maybe understand what I’m talking about and hopefully your listeners as well. Kimberley: I was just going to say, let’s do it.  Max: Let’s do it. Let’s dive in.  Kimberley: Let’s roleplay this.  ATTENTION TRAINING EXERCISE Max: Okay. I want you to roleplay with me and if your listeners would like to roleplay as well, more than happy to follow along too. Again, these exercises, I don’t see them as like coping skills. I see them as like creating an understanding of what we can control, what we can’t control, and being able to just feel what that’s like in our bodies and know that this is something that we can do.  For the first one, what I want you to do is put your thumb and index finger together, like you’re making an okay sign. Put a little bit of pressure between your thumb and index finger, but not a whole lot of pressure. Just take a couple of seconds and see if you can put your brain into your thumb and your index finger and just notice what that feels like. Notice the sensations. Let me know when you feel like you’ve got a good sense of the feeling. Kimberley: Yep, I got it.  Max: What I want you to try to do is shine that beam of attention. Really focus in on the pressure only from your index finger and see if you cannot think about not engage in the pressure from your thumb, allowing that to be there. See if you can really find and identify what your index finger feels like. let me know when you’ve got that. Again, not thinking about your thumb, just focusing on your index finger. Kimberley: Yeah, that was hard, but I got it. Max: It is hard, right? Because what we’re doing is honing in that beam of light that we’re paying attention to. What I want you to do now is switch. Let your index finger, let that feeling go, and switch to your thumb. Again, only focusing on the pressure from your thumb and allowing your index finger, allowing that pressure to be there without thinking about it or controlling it. Just letting it exist, and then focusing on the pressure from your thumb. Kimberley: Yeah, I got it.  Max: We could do this for five, ten minutes. I won’t make you do it right now, but you can see there and there’s like a bump. There’s a shift where you go from one to the other. It’s great. It’s not about getting into details, it’s about noticing, “Oh, I can pay attention flexibly. I can focus on my index finger, allow the thumb feeling to be, and then I can switch to the opposite side.” That’s one way that people can start understanding what I’m talking about, where we can flexibly pay attention while allowing other stuff to exist in the background. Kimberley: Let me bring up my own personal experience here because, like I said, I’m here to learn. As I was pushing, I actually had some pain in my thumb. As I was trying to imagine the top finger, that index finger, that was really hard because I have a little bit of ligament pain in my thumb. I had to work really hard to think about it. What was actually getting in the way was the thoughts of, “I won’t be able to do this because of the pain.” What are your thoughts on people who are fighting that? Max: It’s such an important piece of this because oftentimes what prevents people from practicing are these thoughts and beliefs that pop up. The belief of, “I have no control over rumination,” or “I cannot pay attention.” I’m saying this, and where we’re stepping back and noticing these are thoughts, these are stories as well. Part of the practice is, can I see them as events of the mind? Can I see them as stories? Allow them to be in the background, just like we’re maybe allowing the sensation of your index finger to be in the background while maintaining focus on that one part of your experience, your thumb. Again, we want to treat pain, thoughts, feelings, sensations as best as we can, allowing them, seeing them as mental events versus as distinct parts of who you are as a person while maintaining as best as you can that focused beam of attention on what you choose to. Kimberley: Right. This is really cool. Just so I understand this, but please don’t be afraid to tell me I’ve got it completely wrong. As I was doing it, I was noticing the top of my index finger, doing my best, and in my awareness was the thoughts I had and the pain that I had. My attention was on the top, but there was some background awareness of all the other noise. Is that what you’re saying? Max: That’s exactly what I’m saying. The trick with OCD or anxiety is, can we allow the stuff in the background? Because a lot of people get annoyed or frustrated. And then as soon as you do that, that focus goes from your index finger to the stuff that you don’t want versus if we can let go of control. Another way to think about it too is if you’re looking out of a window. Focused attention would be, you are immensely engaging in this beautiful oak tree in your front yard. I don’t have an oak tree, but hopefully, somebody does. Imagine you’re really focusing on this oak tree, and that is what you’re paying attention to.  Now, there might be other things that come and go. There might be birds flying and bushes in the background. There might be houses and a bunny rabbit running by. You could choose to then shift your beam of light from the tree to one of those things, but you don’t have to. You can keep paying attention to the tree and allowing all this other stuff to exist. That would be what we’re talking about and that’s the practice you could do with your fingers. And then with that same metaphor, broader just overall awareness would be looking out the window, but not intentionally focused on anything. Just letting your eyes wander to whatever is present. “Oh, I notice the tree and I notice a cloud and I notice a bird. Oh, I noticed a thought that I’ve been looking out this window for a very long time.” We’re not questioning, we’re not ruminating, we’re not judging, we’re just simply being there with what’s present. That’s that broader awareness piece to this.  Kimberley: Okay. I love it. For those who have probably heard me talk about this, but not using this language, or are completely new and this is the first time I’ve ever logged in and listened to us, how may they apply this to specific intrusive thoughts that they’re having? Can you walk us through a real example of this? You could use my son if you want, or an actual case of yours or whatever. Max: Yeah, for sure. If we think about it in this way, also, it’s like a little bit of a different approach than maybe how some people think about exposure and response prevention. Because in this way of doing things, there’s a really hard emphasis on the response prevention piece, which in this case would be not ruminating, not engaging in the mental compulsions. It’s doing the exposure, which is triggering the scary thoughts and the feelings, and then accessing awareness mode, like being with what’s present.  An example of that, let’s just say somebody has an intrusive thought, a really scary fear that they might hurt somebody. They might be a serial killer or they might do something really bad. Let’s say we want to do an exposure with that thought and we choose a triggering thought of, “I am a murderer.” Normally, when they have that thought, they do all this stuff. Their focused attention is on that thought, and they’re trying to convince themselves they’re not a murderer. They’re trying to maybe look for evidence. “Did I kill somebody? I did not.” They’re engaging in this thought, doing all this sort of stuff that OCD wants them to.  One way that we might use this difference in attention awareness, doing exposure would be to first evoke the scary thought. Maybe really telling themselves for a couple of seconds like, “I am a murderer. I am a murderer, sitting with the fear and the dread and all the stuff that comes up.” But then instead of focusing on it, then letting go of any engagement. We could just sit there and actually do nothing at all. We just watch and observe. Like you’re looking out that window and that thought “I’m a murderer” might pop up, it might go away. Another thought might pop up. But we want to take this stance of, “None of my business.” We’re going to sit here, we’re going to observe, and we’re not going to mentally engage in the thoughts. It’s really accessing this more of like awareness mode. We can actually do something like that.  If you want to, Kim, we don’t have to use an intrusive thought, but we can, again, practice with a neutral thought together and then apply what I’m talking about. Usually, what people realize is that what happens to their intrusive thoughts is what happens to 99.9% of all the thoughts they get in a day where it comes and then it just goes away when it’s ready. If you think about it, we have thousands and thousands of thoughts per day. Mostly that’s what happens because we’re not focusing our beam of light on it, because we’re not doing all this work that inadvertently keeps it around. It’s exposure not only to sit with the feelings, but to practice the skill of letting go, of focusing on it, of letting go of any mental compulsive behaviors towards it. ATTENTION TRAINING VS DISTRACTON Kimberley: Right. I know this is going to be a question for people, so I’m going to ask it. How does attention training differ from distraction? Quite often, I will get really quite distressed messages from people saying, “But wait, if I’m being mindful on the tree, isn’t that me distracting against my thoughts?” Can you talk about, again, differentiating this practice with distraction or avoidance? Max: Yep, absolutely. I like to think about it as an attitude that people take where we’re willing to have whatever our brain pops up at us. With distraction, we’re unwilling. We don’t want it, we don’t like it, we’re turning away from it. But that’s actually like, it’s okay too. We call it distraction, we can call it engagement. It’s okay to live your life to do stuff, but we have to first get really clear on, can I allow whatever my brain pops up to be there without then keeping that beam of attention on it? Because all mental rituals, all sorts of stuff that we do starts with focused attention. Summons, rituals are pure retention, but a lot of them like analyzing, reassurance, attention is a major part of them. If you can notice when our OCD took that beam of light and shined it, then we could practice taking the light off, allowing it to exist, allowing it to be there, but without engaging. If you want, Kim, I’m happy to maybe do another experiential exercise, not to throw too many at you today.  Kimberley: No, bring it on. Max: So maybe you and your listeners can understand that piece to it.  Kimberley: Yes, please.  ATTENTION TRAINING EXERCISE #2  Max: Okay. Lets start with attention training exercise #2. What we’re going to do is we’re going to practice engaging in what we might think of as a rumination, analytical way of thinking. Again, rumination, mental compulsions, they are a behavior. They’re a mental action that we’re taking that we could turn on, but we can also turn off. We want to be able to turn off mental compulsions throughout the rumination, but allow any thoughts and feelings to exist without doing anything about them. I know it sounds heavy, so let me show you what I mean by that.  Kimberley: Good.  Max: What I want you to do is think about a vacation or a trip that you either have coming up, or it might be like a dream vacation that you really want to take, and just take a second and let me know when you got something in mind. Kimberley: I got it. Max: You got it. That was quick. That was a good thing. What I want you to do is start mentally planning out the itinerary for this vacation, thinking about what you’re going to do, all the steps you’re going to take, just like doing it in your mind. And then I’ll tell you when to stop. Okay. Stop. Now what I want you to do is let go of that engaging analytic way of thinking and just sit here for a couple of seconds. We’re not going to do really anything. If the idea of the vacation pops up in your mind, I want you to allow it to pop up. But don’t think about it, don’t focus on it. Allow it to be there or not to be there. Just don’t do what you were just doing where you’re actually actively thinking about it. Are you ready?  Kimberley: Mm-hmm. Max: Okay. Again, we’re just going to sit and we’re going to observe. Whatever comes up, comes up. We’re going to let it hover and float in your overall awareness without focusing on it.  Waves washing on the beach or just letting your thoughts and feelings come and go. We’re not engaging, we’re not thinking about them. We’re just observing.  What I want you to do one last time, I want you to start thinking again, planning, going through the itinerary, thinking all the cool stuff you’re going to do. As you’re doing it, notice what that feels like psychologically to go from not doing to doing. And then start thinking about it, and I’ll let you know when to stop again. All right. We can let go of the vacation. Again, just for five, ten seconds sitting. If the thought pops up, allow it to pop up, but don’t engage in it. Don’t manipulate it or actively walk through the itinerary again. Just notice what that’s like.  Okay, Kim. I’d love to hear your experience walking through, turning it on the analytical way of thinking, and then turning it off and playing around with it a little bit. Kimberley: Okay. Number one, I immediately was able to go into planning. I think because I do this, this is actually one of the things I do at bedtime. I’ve planned my 91st birthday, my 92nd birthday party. That’s what I love to do, so it was very easy for me to go into that. When I went back to more awareness of just what I noticed, I was actually able to do it really easily except of the thought like, “Oh, I hope I don’t have the thought. I hope I’m doing this right.” Max: That’s such a beautiful way, and the mind is going to do stuff like that. We’re going to start thinking about thinking, and I’m curious how you respond to that thought. What you did next? Kimberley: I was just like, “Maybe I will, maybe I won’t. What else?” And then I was like, “Well, there’s Max and there’s my microphone.” That was the work. Max: Yes. That’s exactly what I’m talking about. We’re not like, “Don’t think about this vacation.” Because if we did that, what do you think that would do to you if you’re just sitting there in that moment of awareness and be like, “This is not a good thought to have, I can’t think about this upcoming vacation”? Kimberley: Well, I had more of them and I had distress about them. Max: Yeah, exactly. That’s what I mean by we’re not distracting, we’re allowing, but we’re also not analytically thinking about it. Now that we’re talking about this, I think this is a really important piece on where mindfulness can get maybe especially confusing or even contradictory for people. Again, to preface this, I’m a huge mindfulness advocate and fan, but one of the issues about mindfulness for OCD, in particular, is that mindfulness is really in a lot of ways teaching it, it’s about coming back to the present moment. I’m going to focus on my breath. I’m going to refocus to my body. I’m going to ground myself. Again, overall very healthy things to do, we should practice that.  But the problem about that is if applied directly to OCD mental compulsions—and again, just to be really clear by mental compulsions, I’m talking about anything that people do to try to feel better, cope with, resolve a scary, intrusive thought. Kim, your six-part series, let’s say, on mental compulsions that you did is one of the best OCD contents I’ve ever seen. I think everybody should go back and listen to that, whether you have OCD or not. So, all this mental stuff that we do in response to a scary thought. Mindfulness can be really helpful in noticing when we get caught up and again, like flexibly shifting. But at the end of the day, sufferers of OCD really need to understand that you don’t need to focus onto the present moment to stop doing mental compulsions. Because it’s analytical, it’s a behavior, it’s a way of thinking. Just like you did, we can simply turn it on and then we can turn it off.  Now, I don’t mean to say it’s as easy as just don’t do it. Obviously, it’s not the case. This is complex stuff. There’s so many psychological factors that lead people to ruminate and to do compulsions, but it’s a simple idea. People need a foundation to understand that mental compulsions are a behavior that we have a lot more agency over than your OCD wants you to think. I like to think about when you look at more traditional, like contamination OCD, people might wash their hands a lot. It’s the same thing where there’s the behavior of washing your hands that you could do or you cannot do.  Now there’s entire treatment protocols helping people chip away at that to not wash their hands, so it’s not just like, “Don’t wash your hands.” But people understand that the goal of this treatment is to, “I’m washing my hands too much and now I’m not washing my hands.” If you apply the same mindful logic to rumination, it would be like, “Oh, we’re going to wash your hands, but you cannot wash your hands. You’re just going to have to use wet wipes forever.” It’s like, oh, I’ll get maybe a step in the right direction. But people need to know that the goal here is to not wash your hands. Just like with more Pure O rumination type of OCD, the goal is to learn how to not ruminate. Learn how to step out of that. Kimberley: Yeah. I think you had said somewhere along the way that it’s a training. It’s a training that we do. What’s interesting for me, I’ll use this as solely example, is I am in the process of training myself to do what I call deep work, because I have two businesses, things are chaotic, and I can get messages all the time. When I sit down to do something, I’m being pinged on my phone and called on my computer and email bells, so I’m training myself to focus on doing the thing I’m doing and not give my attention to the dinging of the phone and so forth as a training. I’m trying to train myself to be able to go longer, longer, longer periods and hold my attention, which at the beginning, my attention, I could really only do like 15 minutes of that and it felt like my brain was going to explode. Would you say that this is a similar practice in that we’re slowly training our brain to be able to hold attention and awareness at the same time and increase it over time?  Max: Yeah, absolutely. I think everything with OCD and anxiety is a process. First, it takes awareness, and that’s where mindfulness can be so helpful, where the practice of mindfulness is about being more aware. “I’m aware, I’m ruminating. I’m aware of that. I’m doing some sort of compulsion.” That itself could take a very long time. I think it’s all about baby steps.  Now, I will say though, Kim, some people, when I explain them these differences and they’re able to really feel what it’s like to be ruminating, what it’s like not—some people click and they can do it really fast. They’re like, “Oh my gosh. I had no idea that this is something I was doing.” Some people, it takes a very long time and there’s a spectrum. I think everybody always needs to go at their own pace and some people are just going to need to work at it harder. Some people, it’s going to come really easy and natural. There’s no right or wrong way to do it. These are principles that live in the ERP lifestyle. We want to start taking little baby steps as much as we can. Kimberley: Right. For those listening and for me too, where it clicked for them, what was the shift for them specifically? Max: The shift was understanding that while it felt like rumination—again, a lot of this is like, think about OCD, there’s this big unsolvable problem and they’re trying to solve it. They’re analyzing it, they’re paying attention to it, they’re focusing on it, they’re thinking about it, for them to really feel that, “This is something that I am doing. I know there’s reasons why I’m doing it, there’s beliefs I have about the utility of ruminating, including beliefs that I can’t control this, when really, we can’t control it. Beliefs about how helpful it is.” There’s a lot of reasons why people do that, but to recognize, “Oh my gosh, this is a thing that’s a lot more in my control than I thought.” When they experience that stepping back and allowing their brain to throw out whatever it does without having to engage with it, game changer.  Also, in terms of classic mindfulness, think about mindfulness of breath. The instructions generally are, we’re going to focus on, say the breath, the rise and fall of my belly. My attention goes, I’m going to come back to it. I think if we do that with a very specific intention, it could be so relevant and so helpful for OCD. That intention is seeing your brain as a little puppy dog. When you have OCD, that puppy dog is full of energy. OCD is like this mean bully that’s thrown a tennis ball and getting that puppy dog to go.  What mindfulness of breath can teach you, if we’re aware of this, we go into it like, “This is what I’m going to work on. This is how my OCD is getting me—it’s getting me to follow these lines of thought.” When you’re there sitting on your breath to be able to notice where your thought goes, be able to look at it, “None of my business. Come back to my breath.” To me, Kim, that is actually exposure and response prevention. You expose yourself to discomfort of not following the thought, which is really hard. For people with OCD, without OCD, that’s hard to do, but like you said, that is absolutely a skill that people can get better at. STOPPING COMPULSIONS WITH ATTENTION TRAINING  Kimberley: Yeah, and it’s response prevention. It’s the core of that. Okay, I love this. I love this. Now, as we wrap up, is there anything that you feel we haven’t covered here that will bring us home and dial this in for those who are hearing this for the first time or have struggled with this in the past?  Max: I think we did a pretty good job. I mean, it’s very nuanced stuff. I like to see this for people that feel like their OCD is well enough managed, but there’s still work to go. This is like icing on the cake. Let’s really look at the nitty-gritty of how this works. Or if people are feeling really stuck and they’re not knowing why, hopefully, this can shine a light on some of these less talked about principles that are really important.  But I guess the one final thing, going all the way back to Amishi Jha and her neurological research on mindfulness, really fascinating studies out of her lab show that 50% of the time, 50% of her waking day, people are not aware. They’re not aware of what’s going on, which means 50% of this podcast, people aren’t going to be paying attention to. We can’t take offense to that because it’s 50% of any podcast. When you have that coupled with OCD’s tendency to steal that beam of focused attention on scary stuff, it can be so devastating and so stuck for people. Hopefully, some of the stuff can give a sense of what we do about that and how we can start making moves against anxiety and OCD. Kimberley: Yeah, and compassion every step of the way. Max: Oh my gosh. I think everything needs to be done, peppered with compassion. Or maybe peppered is too level like in the context of full radical compassion. That’s such an important part of all of this work. Kimberley: Yeah, because it’s true. I mean, even myself who has a pretty good mindfulness practice, I was even surprised how much of mine was like, “Am I doing this right? What if I don’t do it right? Will this work? How will it help me?” All of the things. I think that everyone’s background noise, like you said, is very normal. I so appreciate you bringing this to the conversation, because again, I talk about mindfulness a lot. One other thing is, I will say when, let’s say, someone has a somatic obsession or they have panic, and so they’re having a lot of physical sensations. When you say “Come to the present,” they’re like, “But the present sucks. I don’t want to be here in the present.” What are your thoughts on that?  Max: Somatic OCD and panic, I think out of any themes or content when it comes to awareness and attention, those are the most relevant. If you think about somatic OCD, where people come obsessed about different parts of their perceptual experience, it’s all about people trying to not be aware of things that they can’t control, and then therefore they’re aware of it all the time. I think this is especially spot on for those. It’s helpful for all forms of anxiety, but that in particular, that’s going to be-- we tend to not do exposures by hyper-focusing on what they’re afraid of because that’s compulsive. That’s we’re focusing on controlling more. This process should be effortless. When we’re ruminating, when we’re compulsing or paying attention, that’s like you’re on the treadmill. You’re doing work, and just hopefully, people experience some of these exercises, all we’re doing is getting off the treadmill. We want to be doing less, if anything. OCD is making you work for it. It’s making you do stuff. We want to identify that and do a whole lot less. And then you’ll forget about it usually until you don’t. It’s like, “Oh crap, here it is again.” And then, “Okay, cool. I just practiced. Let me do it again,” until it loses power more fully. Kimberley: Yeah. I so appreciate you. Tell us what people can hear about you. Max: I run a practice in Redondo Beach. We’re called Beachfront Anxiety Specialists. We have our website. Again, my name’s Max Maisel, and people can feel free to Google us and reach out at any time. Kimberley: Amazing. Thank you. We’ll have all of your links in the show notes. I’m really, truly grateful. Thank you for coming on and talking about this. It is so nuanced, but so important. As I say to my patients, I could say it 10 times and sometimes you need to hear a similar thing in a different way for it to click. I’m so grateful. Hopefully, this has been really revolutionary for other people to hear it from a different perspective. I’m so grateful for your time.  Max: Thank you. It’s such a privilege to be here with you and your listeners and I really appreciate you having me on today. Kimberley: Thank you.

Welcome back, everybody. This is a last-minute episode. I usually am really on schedule with my plan for the podcast and what I want to do, but I have recently got back from vacation and I have been summoned to jury duty.  For my own self-care, the idea of going to this master plan that I created for all of the other episodes that I do a lot of planning and a lot of prep and really think it through today, I was like, “I deeply need this episode to land on my own heart.” This is as much for me as it is for you, and it is a community effort, which also was very helpful for me.  As you may know, I’m a huge proponent of self-compassion, which isn’t just having bubble baths and lighting a candle. It’s actually stopping and asking, “What do you need in this moment?” And I really dropped in and I was like, “I need this to be really simple, really easy, and I need this to be also something that will land.” Let’s do it.  Today, we’re talking about the 14 things you should say to a loved one with anxiety. I asked everyone on Instagram to weigh in on what they need to hear, and the response was so beautiful, it actually brought me to tears.  I am going to share with you the 14 things that you should say to a loved one with anxiety, and I’m also going to talk about, it’s not just what we say. I was thinking about this the other day. When we’re anxious, the advice we get can make us feel very soothed and validated, or it can feel really condescending. Saying “stop worrying” can be really condescending. It can make us enraged. But if someone so gently says, “Listen, don’t worry, I got you.” You know what I mean? The tone makes a huge difference.  For those of you who are family members or loved ones who are listening to this, to really get some nuggets on what they can do to support their loved one, remember that the tone and the intent are really 80% of the work. That is so, so important. Here we go. Let’s go through them.  I AM HERE FOR YOU. The first thing you should say to a loved one with anxiety is, “I am here for you.” The beauty of this is it’s not saying, “How can I make your discomfort go away?” It’s not saying, “What should we do to fix this and make you stop talking about it and stop having pain about it?” It’s just saying, “I’m here, I’m staying in my lane and I’m going to be there to support you.” It’s beautiful.  HOW CAN I SUPPORT YOU? The second thing you could say to a loved one with anxiety is, and this is actually my all-time favorite, this is probably the thing I say the most to my loved ones when they’re anxious or going through a difficult time, “How can I support you?” It’s not saying, “What can I do?” It’s not saying, again, “How can I fix you?” or “Let’s get rid of it.” It’s just saying, “What is it that you need? Because the truth is, I don’t know what you need and I’m not going to pretend I do because what may have worked for you last week mightn’t work this week.” That’s really important to remember. How can I support you? YOU ARE NOT BAD FOR EXPERIENCING THIS. The third thing you could say to a loved one with anxiety is, “You are not bad for experiencing this.” So often when we are going through a hard time, we’re having strong emotions. We then have secondary shame and blame and guilt for having it. We feel guilty, we feel weak, we feel silly, we feel selfish, we feel juvenile for struggling—often based on what we were told in childhood or in our early days about having emotions. We can really start to feel bad for having it. Or for you folks with OCD or intrusive thoughts, you might feel bad because of the content of your obsessions.  Now let’s pause here for a second and be very clear. We also have to recognize that we don’t want to be providing reassurance for our loved ones with OCD and intrusive thoughts because, while giving them reassurance might make them feel better for the short term and might make you feel like you’re really a great support person, it probably is reinforcing and feeding the disorder and making it worse.  So in no way here am I telling you to tell your loved ones like, “You’re not bad. You’re not going to do the thing that you think you’re going to do,” or “That fear is not going to come true.” We don’t want to go down that road because that’s going to become compulsive and high in accommodation. Those two things can really, really make your OCD and intrusive thoughts much, much, much worse. But we can validate them that having a single emotion like anxiety, shame, anger, sadness does not make them a bad person. So, so important. THINGS WILL GET BETTER... THIS WILL NOT LAST FOREVER. The fourth thing you should say to a loved one with anxiety is, “Things will get better,” and another thing that the folks on Instagram said is, “This will not last forever.” This was something that was said many, many times. I pulled together the main common themes here. But what I loved about this is they were bringing in the temporary nature of anxiety, which is a mindfulness concept, which is, this is a temporary experience that this anxiety will not last forever. Again, pay attention to the tone here. Telling them “This won’t last long” or “This won’t last forever” in a way that devalues their experience or disqualifies their experience, or invalidates their experience isn’t what we’re saying here. What they’re saying is, they’re really leading them towards a skill of recognizing that yes, this is hard, we’re not denying it. Yes, this is hard, but things will get better or that this won’t last forever.  The thing I love about “Things will get better” is, so often when we have anxiety, and we recently did an episode about this—when you have invasive anxiety all the time, you can start to feel depressed about the future. You can start to feel helpless and hopeless about the future. Offering to them “This will get better with steps and together we’ll do this and we’ll support you and we’ll take baby steps,” that can really help reduce that depressive piece of what they’re experiencing.   YOU HAVE GOTTEN THROUGH THIS BEFORE. The fifth thing you should say to a loved one with anxiety is, “You have gotten through this before.” Now, that reminds them of their strength and courage. Even if they’ve never done this scary thing before, chances are, they’ve done other scary things before or other really difficult things in their life. Often I’ll say to patients when they’re new to treatment, “Tell me about a time where you did something you actually didn’t think you could do.” It’s usually things like, “I ran a marathon,” or “I rode a bike up this really steep hill and I couldn’t do it forever. And then one weekend I built up and I could,” or “I never thought I would pass this one exam and I’d failed it multiple times and I finally did.” It helps us to really see that you are a courageous, resilient person, that you’ve gotten through hard things before.  Again, we’re not saying it in a sense of urgency like, “Get up and do the hard things because you’ve done them before.” We are really dropping into their experience. We’re really honoring their experience. We’re not rushing them too much.  I have learned as a parent of a kid who hates needles, this is the biggest lesson for me because I’m an exposure therapist. I’m like, “Let’s go, let’s face our fear.” I’ve learned to trust my child. When we go in to get vaccinations or immunizations, my child says, “Mama, I’m going to do it, but you have to let me do this at my pace.” I was like, “Wow, you’re quite the little wise one.” It was so profound to me that I was pushing them too fast, going, “Let’s just get it over with. Once you’re done, you’ll feel so much better.” They really needed to slow it down and be like, “I’m going to do it. It’s just going to be at my own pace.” I digress.  I AM PROUD OF HOW HARD YOU ARE TRYING. The sixth thing you should say to a loved one with anxiety, and you don’t have to say all of these by the way, but number six is, “I am proud of how hard you are trying.” I loved this because it, number one, validates that they’re going through a hard thing. It also encourages and recognizes that they are trying their best.  Often we make the mistake of saying, “You could be doing a little better.” The truth is, yeah, you will be doing better in the future, but you’re doing the best you can right now with what you have, so do really say, “I’m proud of how hard you are trying.” One thing I’ve also learned, and I learned this from another clinician once, is this clinician taught me. She says, “I never tell my patients how proud I am of them.” She says, “I always say, you must be so proud of how hard you are trying.” She said that because that gives them ownership of being proud. It gives them permission to be proud. I have learned in many clinical settings with patients to say that. Not all the time, sometimes I just straight up say, “I’m so proud of you.” I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. But you might even want to play around with this nuanced change in this sentence of, “I’m so proud of how hard you are trying and you must be so proud of how hard you are trying.” So powerful the use of words here.  LET’S LISTEN TO STORIES OF OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE GOTTEN THROUGH THIS. The seventh thing you need to say to a loved one who has anxiety is, “Let’s listen to stories of other people who have gotten through this.” The person who wrote this in, I loved it because they actually gave some context of them saying, “In a moment where I don’t think I can do the scary thing, sometimes hearing other stories of people who have done this work is exactly what I need to remind myself that I can do this hard thing.” This is how they did it, and I have the same skills that they do. I’m the same human that they are. They’re no better or worse than me.  If you go back, there’s tons of stories and OCD stories that you can look at on Your Anxiety Toolkit podcast or OCD stories or other podcasts, or even IOCDF live streams of other people’s stories that can be inspiring to you. I WILL DO THE DISHES TONIGHT. The eighth thing you should say to a loved one with anxiety is, I loved this one, “I will do the dishes tonight.” I loved this one. They actually put a smiley face emoji after it because really what they’re saying is, “You need a break and I’m going to be the break you need.” It’s not to say, again, that we’re going to accommodate you and we’re going to do all your jobs and chores for you. All they’re saying is, “I can see anxiety’s taking a lot of space for you. As you work through that—not to do compulsions, but as you work through that and navigate that using your mindfulness and your ERP and your willingness and your act and all of the skills you have—as you do that, I’m going to take a little bit of the slack and I’m going to do the dishes tonight.” I just loved this. I would never have thought to include that. I thought that was really, really cute.  YOU ARE ALLOWED TO TAKE THIS TIME AND THIS SPACE. The ninth thing you should say to a loved one with anxiety is, “You are allowed to take this time and this space.” I thought that was really a beautiful way. Quite a few people said something similar like, “You’re allowed to struggle at this time. It’s okay that you’re having this discomfort. I’m going to give you some space to just feel your feelings. Be uncomfortable if that’s what you’re doing. Bring on the loving kindness and the compassion, and I’m actually going to give you space to do that. You’re allowed to take this time. You’re allowed to take up this space with these emotions.” As somebody who, myself, struggles with that, I feel like I should tie my emotions up and put them in a pretty bow. I really felt this one really landed on me. It was exactly what I needed to hear as well. Thank you, guys.  YOU DO NOT NEED TO SOLVE EVERYTHING RIGHT NOW. YOU CAN PACE YOURSELF THROUGH THIS. The tenth thing you should say to a loved one with anxiety is, “You do not need to solve everything right now. You can pace yourself through this.” There’s two amazing things I love about this, which is number one, reminding us that we can be uncertain, that we can be patient, that we can let this one sort of lay it down, sit down. We don’t have to tend to it right now, we can just let it be there. We’re going to go about our time. Absolutely. And that you can pace yourself in that.  Often I get asked questions like, “I just want to get it all done right now. I just want to get all my exposures done and I want to face all my fears and I want to have all the emotions and get them over and done with.” You can pace yourself through this. I think that’s so important to remember.  WHAT’S IMPORTANT TO YOU RIGHT NOW? The eleventh thing that you should say to a loved one with anxiety is—this is actually not something you’d say, it’s actually something you would ask. They’d say, “I need them to ask me, what’s important to you right now.” I think this is beautiful because instead of supporting them, you’re really just directing them towards their north star of their values. “If you’re anxious, let me just be a prompt for you of, what’s important to you right now.” So cool. It’s really helping them, especially you guys know when we’re anxious, we can’t think straight. It’s so hard to concentrate, it’s all blurry and things are confusing. Sometimes being given a prompt to help direct us back to those values is so, so important. I BELIEVE YOU. The twelfth thing that you should say to a loved one with anxiety is, “I believe you.” Really what we’re saying here is, “I believe that this is really hard for you. You’re not trying to attention seek. I believe that you’re struggling.” This was a big one, especially for those people who have a chronic illness. As someone with a chronic illness, so many people kept saying, “Are you sure it’s not in your head? Are you sure it’s not anxiety? Maybe you’re seeking attention.” For people to say, “I believe you, I believe what you’re experiencing. I believe that this is really hard for you,” I think that that is so powerful and probably the deepest level of seeing someone authentically and vulnerably. All right, we’re getting close to the end here guys. You have held in strong.  YOU ARE STRONGER THAN YOU THINK AND YOU HAVE GOT THIS. The thirteenth thing you should say to a loved one with anxiety is, “You are stronger than you think and you have got this.” So good. Again, similar to what we’ve talked about in the past, but it’s reminding them of their strengths, reminding them of their courage, reminding them of their resilience.  Sometimes when we’re anxious, we doubt ourselves, we doubt our ability to do the hard thing. They’re saying, “You’ve got this. Let’s go. Come on, you’ve got this.” But again, not in a way that’s demeaning or condescending, or invalidating. It’s a cheerleading voice.  I KNOW YOU CAN RESIST THESE COMPULSIONS. The fourteenth thing you should say to a loved one with anxiety, but I do have a bonus one of course, is,” I know you can resist these compulsions.” This is for the folks who have OCD and who do struggle with doing these compulsions. Or if you have an eating disorder, it might be, “I know you can resist restriction or binging or purging,” or whatever the behavior is. Maybe if you have an addiction, “I know you can resist these urges.” Same with hair pulling and skin picking. It’s really reinforcing to them that, “I know you can do this. I know you can resist this urge or compulsion, whatever it may be.”  Again, it gives us a north star to remind ourselves what are we actually here to do. Because when we’re anxious, our default is like, “How can I get away from this as fast as possible?” Sometimes we do need a direction change of like, “No, the goal is to reduce these safety behaviors.” BONUS: IT’S A BEAUTIFUL DAY TO DO HARD THINGS. These are so beautiful. I’m going to add mine in at the end and you guys know what I’m going to say. We almost need a drum roll, but we don’t need a drum roll because I’m going to say that the 15th thing that I always say to any loved one, including myself with anxiety, is, “It’s a beautiful day to do hard things. It’s a beautiful day to do freaking hard things. It’s a beautiful day to do the hardest thing.” I say that because it reminds me to look at the beauty of it, to look at the reward of it, and to remind myself that yes, we can do hard things.  My friends, thank you for allowing this to be a nice, soft landing for me today. I know I have to rearrange all the schedule and my podcast editor and my executive assistant is going to have to help me with all of the mix-up and mess around. But I’m grateful for the opportunity just to slow down with you this week.  Take a deep breath.  Drop into what do I need. I hope you’re doing that for yourself. I will see you next week back on schedule and I cannot wait to talk with you there.  Have a wonderful day everybody, and talk to you soon.

Today, we’re talking about when anxiety causes depression and vice versa. This is a topic that I get asked about all the time. It can be really confusing and a lot of time, it’s one of those things that we talk about in terms of like, is it the chicken or the egg? I want to get to the bottom of that today.  When anxiety causes depression, it can feel like your world is spinning and racing from one thought to another. You may feel a complete loss of interest in the things that you’re doing. You may have racing thoughts, depressive thoughts, or thoughts of doom. This can be really, really overwhelming. Today, I want to talk about when anxiety causes depression and how you might target that, and also when depression causes anxiety. Let’s get into it. We’re going to go through a couple of things today. Number one is we’re going to go through why does anxiety cause depression, how does depression cause anxiety, how common is depression and anxiety, particularly when they’re together, and what to do when depression and anxiety mix. Now, stick around till the end because I’m also going to address how OCD causes depression and how social anxiety causes depression, and what to do when anxiety and depression impact your sleep, and in this case, cause insomnia. I’m so excited to do this. Let’s get started.  WHAT CAUSES ANXIETY AND DEPRESSION What causes anxiety and depression? Let’s look at that first.  What we understand is that anxiety and depression—we don’t entirely know just yet to be exact, but what we know so far is that there is a combination between genetics, biology, environment, and also psychological factors. That’s a big piece of what we’re going to be talking about today.  Now, if you want to know specifically the causes of anxiety, and that’s really what you’re wanting, you can actually go over to Episode 225 of Your Anxiety Toolkit. We have a whole episode there on what causes anxiety and what you can do to overcome anxiety. That might be a more in-depth understanding of that.  But just in general, we do know that genetics play a huge component. However, we do know, talking about the psychological factors, that often people who do have depression, that depression does cause an increase in anxiety. A lot of people who have an anxiety disorder do notice that they feel themes of depression like hopelessness, helplessness, and worthlessness.  WHY DOES ANXIETY CAUSE DEPRESSION? Now, let’s first look at, why does anxiety cause depression? The thing to remember here is, anxiety alone doesn’t cause depression in all cases. There are lots of people who do have an anxiety disorder who don’t experience depression. However, we do know that for those who have a lot of anxiety, maybe untreated anxiety or anxiety that is very complex and they’re in the early stages of recovery or learning the tools and mastering those tools, it is common for people with anxiety or uncertainty to start to feel doom and gloom about their life. Often it comes in the form of feeling like, “Is this going to be here forever?” A lot of people will say, “What’s the point really of life if I’m going to be experiencing this level of suffering with my anxiety every single day?” And that’s very, very valid.  When you’re suffering to the degree that some of you are with very chronic anxiety disorders, very severe degrees of anxiety disorders, it makes complete sense that you would start to feel like, “What is the point? How do I get through this? No one can help me. Am I someone who can be helped?” These are very common concerns. I myself have struggled with this as well, particularly when your anxiety feels so out of control and you don’t feel like you have mastery over it yet. I think that that is a very, very normal experience for people who have that degree of anxiety.  This also includes other anxiety disorders like phobias, panic disorder, PTSD, and eating disorders. I know when I had my eating disorder, I felt so stuck, “How am I ever going to climb out of this deep hole that I’m in?” And that in and of itself made me feel depressed. I had what we call secondary depression. My primary condition was an eating disorder, and then I had a secondary depression because of how heavy and how overwhelming my primary condition was.  If that’s something that you resonate with, I first want to acknowledge and recognize that this is very normal, very common, but also very treatable, particularly if you have a mental health professional who can help you. But again, I want to go back and say, just because you have anxiety or intrusive thoughts, doesn’t mean that you will be anxious and depressed for the rest of your life. With mastery and tools and recovery and practice and patience and compassion, you can actually slowly peel those layers of depression and anxiety away.  WHY DOES DEPRESSION CAUSE ANXIETY? So then we move over now and look at, why does depression cause anxiety? If your primary diagnosis or your primary disorder is depression, meaning that’s the first disorder you had and you didn’t have an anxiety disorder before that, or that’s the disorder that is the largest and the one that takes up the most space in your life. When we are depressed, often people will have anxiety about how much that depression is going to impact them in their life. Similar to the last points we made about anxiety. A lot of my patients and a lot of you folks have written in or messaged me or in my comments on Instagram talking about the overwhelming fear of relapse and the overwhelming fear of going back to those dark days when depression was so strong and you couldn’t get out of bed, and it was almost traumatizing how painful and how much suffering you are experiencing. It is, again, very normal to have a large degree of anticipatory anxiety about how that may impact you.  Now, in addition, depression in and of itself will say some pretty mean things. Actually, let me rephrase that—will always lie to you about who you are, your worth, your future, your place in the world. When you hear those things on repeat, of course, you’re going to have anxiety about, will that come true? Is that possible? Oh my goodness, that’s not what I want for my life. This is not how my life was supposed to go. The messages and the narrative of depression in and of itself can create an immense degree of anxiety.  HOW COMMON IS DEPRESSION AND ANXIETY? Now, let’s take a look now, as promised, to look at how common anxiety and depression are. I’m actually going to read you some statistics here that I got from some really reputable journal articles, and I will link them in the show notes.  One research said that generalized anxiety disorder affects 6.8 million adults in the United States. That’s 3.1% of the population, and that’s just in the United States. That’s not talking about the world. Yet, only 43.2% of them are receiving treatment. That’s from the National Institute of Mental Health. Now, what’s interesting about that, as I remember sharing before, is being untreated increases your chances of having both. Because as you can imagine, if you’re having a disorder and it’s not improving, you’re going to feel more depressed about it and you’re going to feel more anxious about that.  Statistics also show that women are twice as likely to be affected as men with generalized anxiety. Generalized anxiety disorder often co-occurs with major depression. They are almost always going to go together. Now, we also know that depression is a very common illness worldwide, with an estimated 3.8% of the population affected. That’s 5% for adults and 5.7% for adults older than 60 years. That’s very interesting as well to see how our age can impact these disorders, and that comes directly from the Institute of Health Metrics and Evaluation. We have some really important information here to show that there is a huge overlap between the two. And then it gets murky because then, again, as I mentioned in the intro, is it the chicken or the egg? Which one do we treat? Which one do we look at? Which one came first? Which is the primary? Which is the secondary?  WHAT TO DO WHEN DEPRESSION AND ANXIETY MIX? Let’s talk first about what to do when depression and anxiety mix, because that’s why you’re here. It’s important and what’s cool is to recognize that we have a treatment that can target both. As you all know, I’m a Cognitive Behavioral Therapist and we have a lot of research to show that cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT can help with both. Thank goodness, it’s not that you have to go to one particular treatment for one, and then you have to learn a whole other treatment for another. We actually have this one treatment that you can use to address both in different ways.  Now, CBT is going to be looking at your cognition, your thoughts, which we know with anxiety and depression, there are a lot of irrational, faulty thoughts. It also looks at your behaviors and how those behaviors may actually be contributing to your anxiety and your depression. Not to say that it’s your fault. I want to be really clear here. We are not saying that this is all your fault and you’ve got bad thoughts and you’ve got bad behaviors. That’s why you have both and you’re going to be stuck in both until you change that. Absolutely not. We’re not here to blame. What we’re here to do is be curious about our thoughts and about our behaviors, and then look and do experiments on what helps and what doesn’t. I’ll give you an example of a really basic CBT skill that I used recently, and that was that somebody I knew was talking about how difficult it is to go to bed. They get really depressed going to bed. It makes them have a lot of thoughts about how they didn’t get done what they wanted to do. They would procrastinate going to bed, but before they know it, it would be 3:00 AM in the morning or even later. They still haven’t yet journeyed through their night routine to go to bed.  We talked about what would be effective for you, what behavior change would be effective for you to move into the direction that you want. With CBT, we are not looking at 17 different changes at once. We might make one simple change at a time and then look at your thoughts about that. This is a really important way for us to be curious and do experiments and look at what’s effective and what’s not effective and make small little tweaks to your behaviors.  Now, some examples of this, we go through this extensively in our online course called Overcoming Depression. We also go through this extensively in our online course called Overcoming Anxiety and Panic, where we thoroughly go through your thoughts and then do an inventory of your behaviors. I give tons of examples of little ways that you can change behaviors, moving in ways that will reduce the repetition of these disorders. Let’s talk a little bit about that.  One really important piece for depression when we’re talking about behavioral therapy is activity scheduling. The less routine you have, the more likely you are to be depressed. Often people with depression tend to lose their routine or they have lost their routine, which can actually contribute to depression. What we might do is we might look at our day and implement or add just one or two things to create some routine. Once you’ve got those things down, maybe you have a morning routine in the morning where you take a walk at eight o’clock, and that’s it for now. Let’s just try on that. And then by lunchtime, we might add in some kind of pleasurable activity. Because we know with depression, as I mentioned at the beginning, depression can take away our pleasure or interest in hobbies. We might introduce those back, even though I know that you’re not going to experience as much pleasure as maybe you used to. But we’re going to experiment and be curious about bringing back things into your life like paint-by-number, crochet, or whatever it might be.  I personally just took up crocheting when I was in Australia. My mom insisted that I learn how to crochet and it’s quite impressive to me how something so simple can be such a mindful activity. Even though I only do it for 5, 10, 15 minutes a day, that in and of itself can be an incredible shift to our mental health. Again, I want to make clear, none of these alone will snap you out of depression. It’s a series of small baby changes in a direction that is right for you and is in line with your values. Now, another thing you can do when depression and anxiety mix is to consult with your doctor about antidepressant medications for anxiety & depression or what we call SSRIs. We know that research shows that a combination of CBT and medication is a really effective way to come out of that hole of depression and anxiety. If that’s something you are interested in or willing to consider, please do go to a medical professional or a psychiatrist and talk with them about your particular needs. It can be incredibly helpful. I know for me, during different stages of my life, SSRIs have been so, so helpful. That’s something that you could also consider. The next thing you can do when depression and anxiety mix is to consider exercise. We actually have research to show that exercise is as effective as medications or SSRIs, which blows my mind. Actually, I think it’s so wonderful that we have this research. In my opinion, add it slowly to your calendar. I’m not here to say this means you have to go out and do an hour class at the gym. It could be as simple as taking a walk around the block.  Actually, recently, as many of you follow me on Instagram, I am trying to get back to exercising more as I still continue to recover from my chronic illness, POTS. I don’t go and do huge workouts. For me, it’s first starting in baby steps, 5, 10 minutes. Or can I do a plank for 30 seconds? And that’s it to start. I want to again encourage you to take baby steps here and implement just little things at a time. And then ask yourself, how does this feel? Did this help? Did this hinder? How does it feel in my body? And then if you need to, talk to a mental health professional about what would be the best step for you next. Now we also know that exercise aids relaxation, it aids over well-being. It’s incredibly helpful, again, for your mental health. That’s something you can consider and consult with a doctor as well.  Now another thing you can consider is relaxation techniques. Now here, we’re not talking about doing breathing just to get rid of anxiety. We know that that doesn’t typically work, but there are ways in which you can learn to breathe as an act of self-compassion, of slowing down and acknowledging where you are and slowing down your behaviors, and checking in with yourself. This does include some mindfulness or you can even consider taking up one or two minutes of meditation a day. These techniques can be very helpful for both depression and anxiety.  Again, I keep teasing this, but I keep having technical issues. We will eventually have a meditation vault for you guys that will have meditations for anxiety and depression specifically and anxiety with intrusive thoughts. I’ve tried my best to continue to add. We’ve got probably over 30 meditations already. That will be available to you soon as well, so do keep an eye out for that. HOW OCD CAUSES DEPRESSION?  Now, let’s talk as promised about how OCD causes depression, because I know a lot of you out there have OCD. If you don’t have OCD, stick with this because I’m also going to go through here about insomnia. We do know that statistically, OCD affects 2.5 million adults. That’s 1.2% of the population. That’s just what we know of. That’s not actually the real stats because there are so many people who haven’t reported it because of stigma and shame and so forth. We know here that women are three times more likely to be affected than men. That’s actually not my experience. I think I have a 50/50 in my clientele. But that’s what the statistics show.  Again, as you can imagine, if you have OCD and you’re completely flooded with intrusive thoughts, you’re doing compulsions for hours, you’re stuck in a mental loop, I think the research shows 80% of people also have depression, up to 85%. Now, that is significant in the overlap and it just shows how much OCD can take you down and really target your worth and your sense of identity and your self-esteem and how much shame and guilt and blame goes along with those. When you’re experiencing that, of course, you’re going to experience some depression or themes of depression, as I said before, hopelessness, helplessness, and worthlessness.  If this is the case for you, what we often recommend, again, especially if the primary condition is OCD and then you have depression because of that, we really want to target getting you better from OCD as soon as we can. A lot of the time, when depression is caused by the anxiety disorder, the major treatment goal needs to be getting that primary condition under control. Often once we get that primary condition under control, the depression does lift. Now, again, it’s different if you’re someone who’s always had depression or had it throughout your life. We still want to go back and look at cognitive behavioral therapy or mindfulness-based cognitive behavioral therapy. We also want to look at maybe including a massive self-compassion practice because that is absolutely key for all of these conditions, no matter what, whether they’re coexisting or not. But you can also include other modalities like acceptance and commitment therapy. You could also do other modalities such as dialectical behavioral therapy. That’s particularly helpful if you’re engaging in impulsive behavior or self-harm. You’re having a tremendous degree of suicidal ideation, or sometimes in some cases, suicide attempts. These are other options you can add to your cognitive behavioral therapy if you require it. Because remember, we have to look at you as a person, not just you as a diagnosis. We have to really be certain that we look at all the symptoms, you have a thorough assessment, we’re clear on what’s the primary and secondary condition, and then we can create a treatment plan for you that targets those specific symptoms.  If you have OCD and you don’t have access to a mental health professional, we do have ERP School, which is an online class for OCD, it’s on demand. You can watch it as many times as you want. You can go to CBTSchool.com to get any of these courses. But that is there for you. I made it specifically for people who either don’t have access to mental health services, can’t afford them, or have had it in the past and they just want to hear it be said in a different way. Maybe you really like my way of training and teaching and you want to hear it and how I apply it with my patients. All of the courses that I have recorded are exactly how I would treat my clients and how I would walk them through the process. They’re there for you if you would like.   HOW SOCIAL ANXIETY CAUSES DEPRESSION? Now let’s move on to how social anxiety causes depression. Now, this is true for everything, and forgive me because I should have mentioned this before. One of the most common safety behaviors that come out with social anxiety is avoidance, isolation. But I should have mentioned before, that is very true of any anxiety disorder. It’s very true of OCD, it’s very true of post-traumatic stress disorder. When we isolate and we avoid, we do tend to feel more depressed because we have less connection in our life, we have less interaction, which can be a really great way for us to stay present. When we’re in a room by ourselves with our thoughts, that can always create more anxiety and more depression. That’s very common for social anxiety.  The other thing to remember about social anxiety too is the voice of social anxiety is also very, very mean, just like OCD and generalized anxiety and depression. Thoughts we have when we have social anxiety are often like, “You look like an idiot. You look awkward. What’s wrong with you? Why did you say that? You shouldn’t have said that. They’re going to think you’re stupid.” As you can imagine, those thoughts in and of themselves will create more anxiety, and that secondary depression, that layer of like, “I give up. I can’t do this. This is too hard. What’s even the point of trying?”  WHAT TO DO WHEN ANXIETY AND DEPRESSION CAUSE INSOMNIA Last of all, we want to talk about what to do when anxiety and depression, or one or the other, cause insomnia. Now, it’s important to recognize here that one of the core symptoms of depression is insomnia or getting too much sleep. It can go either way, but there are some people who have depression and one of their symptoms is they cannot fall asleep. They lay in bed for hours just round and round and round ruminating. That is true for any of the anxiety disorders as well.  When you have anxiety and you have depression, you go to bed, you turn the lights off, and you are left with your thoughts. If your thoughts are mean, if your thoughts are catastrophic, if your thoughts are very much in the theme of hyper-responsibility or perfectionism, it’s a very high chance that you’re going to get stuck being completely overwhelmed with those thoughts and then have a hard time falling asleep. What happens there, as this is the theme of today, is it becomes a cycle. The less sleep you get, the more anxious you might feel. Or the more that you have anxiety, the more you might be afraid you won’t fall asleep, and that anxiety in and of itself keeps you up and you’re caught in a cycle.  What I want to offer to you here, as we look at all of these conditions, let’s wrap this up for you, is number one, if you have anxiety and/or depression, you are so not alone. I would say the majority of my patients have both. No matter what anxiety disorder, they have little inklings or massive degrees of depression. That does not mean there’s anything wrong with you and it doesn’t mean you cannot move into recovery. It also doesn’t mean that this is your fault.  I really want to emphasize here that with compassion and baby steps and PATIENCE, we can slowly come out of this place and get you back out. I strongly encourage you to reach out and have a team around you who can support you, even if you haven’t got access to a mental health professional, your medical doctor, or any friends you may have, family. Maybe it’s using resources like online courses or workbooks. We have, for people with OCD, The Self-Compassion Workbook for OCD. They’re amazing workbooks for depression. One I strongly encourage you to consider is a book by David Burns called Feeling Good. It’s an amazing resource using cognitive therapy for depression. These are things that you can bring in and gather as a part of your resources so that you can slowly find your way out. Hopefully, the clouds will separate and you can see the sky again.  I truly want to recognize here that this is really hard. We’re talking about two very influential conditions that bully us and can make us feel hopeless. I want to recognize that and validate you and send you a large degree of love because this is hard work.  As I always say, it is a beautiful day to do hard things. I say that because if we can look for the beauty, that in and of itself is a small step to moving out of these conditions. Look for the beauty in your day, and see doing the hard things as a beautiful thing because, with each hard thing you do, you’re taking one step closer to your recovery. You just focus on one hard thing at a time, and then you focus on the next hard thing and you celebrate your wins, and you of course act as kindly and as compassionately as you can. Thank you so much for being here. I hope that was helpful. We went all the way through what to do when anxiety causes depression and vice versa. I hope you took so much from today’s video and podcasts. For those of you who are listening on podcast, do know that we will be introducing a lot of these on video on YouTube as well. If you want to see my face, I will be over on YouTube as well.  I’m so honored that you have spent your time with me. I know how valuable your time is. I do hope that you have a wonderful day. Please do remember it is a beautiful day to do hard things and I am here cheering you on every step of the way.

Welcome back, everybody. It is so good to have you here talking about hyper-responsibility & hyperresponsibility OCD. A lot of you may not even know what that means and maybe have never heard it, or maybe you’ve heard the term but aren’t quite sure what it entails. And some of you are very well acquainted with the term hyper-responsibility. I thought, given that it’s a theme that’s laced through so many anxiety disorders through depression that we should address it. I think that’s a really great starting point. WHAT IS HYPER-RESPONSIBILITY OCD? Let’s talk about first what is hyper-responsibility. Hyper-responsibility is an inflated sense of responsibility. It is feeling responsible for things that are entirely out of your control, such as accidents, how other people feel about you, how other people behave, events happening in your life. It’s ultimately this overwhelming feeling that the world rests on your shoulders, that it’s up to you and it’s your job to keep yourself and everybody else safe. Even as we look at this definition of what hyper-responsibility is, I’m actually feeling and noticing in my body this heaviness, this weight that you’re carrying, and it is an incredible weight to carry. It is an incredibly stressful role to play. If you’re someone who experiences hyper-responsibility, you often will have additional exhaustion because of this.  WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HYPER-RESPONSIBILITY AND RESPONSIBILITY OCD? One thing I want to clear up as we move forward is first really differentiating the difference between hyper-responsibility and responsibility OCD. When we say “hyper-responsibility,” we’re talking about a heightened sense of responsibility. Actually, let me back up a little bit. We do have responsibility. I am an adult. I’m responsible for my body, I’m responsible for two young children, a dog. Responsibility is one thing. You need to keep them safe, you need to take care of them, you need to show up in respectful ways. But hyper-responsibility is so much more than that. It’s taking an incredible leap of responsibility and feeling responsible for all the teeny tiny things, like I said before, that are out of your control.  Now, once we’ve determined what responsibility is, then we can also look at responsibility OCD. Now specifically for those who have responsibility OCD is where this sense of hyper-responsibility has crossed over into meeting criteria for having the obsession of hyper-responsibility that’s repetitive, intrusive, unwanted, and you’re also engaging in a significant degree of compulsions that, again, meet criteria for OCD. They could be mental compulsions, physical compulsions, avoidant compulsions, reassurance-seeking compulsions, and so forth.  The way I like to think of it is on a spectrum. We have responsibility on one side, then in the middle, we have hyper-responsibility, and then it goes all the way over to responsibility OCD. Some people will differentiate them differently in terms of they will say, hyper-responsibility is the same thing as responsibility OCD. But I’m not here to really diagnose people, and I’m not here to tell people that they have OCD if they don’t quite resonate with that. I’ll use me as an example. I 100% struggle with hyper-responsibility in certain areas of my life. But the presentation of that hyper-responsibility, I don’t feel, and I’m sure my therapist doesn’t feel, meets criteria for me to get the diagnosis of OCD. That’s why I want to make sure this is very loose so that you can decide for yourself where you fit on that spectrum.  HYPER RESPONSIBILITY SYMPTOMS OR RESPONSIBILITY OCD SYMPTOMS A little bit more about hyper-responsibility symptoms or even responsibility OCD symptoms. Examples will include: when something goes wrong, you’re probably likely to blame yourself and feel guilty for the fact that something went wrong. Even disregarding whether it was your fault or not, you’ll feel a sense that this was your mistake, that you should have prevented it.  Another hyper-responsibility symptom is you might believe that it is up to you to control the outcomes of your life. It is up to you to control the outcomes of other people’s lives—your dependence, your partner, your family members, and so forth, the people at your work, the projects at your work, or at school.  Another symptom of hyper-responsibility and responsibility OCD is this act of always trying to “fix” the problem. Even when you’ve recognized that there is no solution, you feel this need to just keep chipping away and finding the solution to prevent the bad thing from happening or being responsible for the bad thing. You may spend hours trying to prevent accidents or bad things from happening. What I mean by spending hours is it takes up a significant degree of your time, and it’s usually quite distressing. It’s a heavy feeling.  There is a difference between responsibility and hyper-responsibility. An example might be my husband found that one of our decks was rickety and shaking, and he felt it was his responsibility to fix that. He did it in a very measured way, in a very rational way, and it was coming from a place of his genuine value and his genuine view that it’s his responsibility to fix that. However, hyper-responsibility would be fixing it, but then also checking every part of it to make sure that it was safe, spending a lot of time going over all the possible scenarios on how it may not be safe, how it could have been safer, what it would mean if something bad happened, replaying. I actually shouldn’t use the word “replay.” It’s almost like future forecasting what would happen and who would be at fault if something bad did happen.  Again, if we even went further into more responsibility OCD, it might involve repetitively doing these over and over again to get a sense of relief from this hyper-responsibility or to absolutely get security and certainty that nothing bad will ever happen. Often in this case, if I was using this example, maybe they would do the avoidant compulsion of saying, no one’s allowed on the deck, even though it might be a safe, secure deck. That’s just one example. It’s probably not the best example, but I’m trying to use it in contrast to the many ways in which this can play out, especially for those who don’t have hyper-responsibility.  A thing to remember is, people who don’t have hyper-responsibility may look at the person with hyper-responsibility with a quite perplexed look on their face because to them, they can’t understand why the person feels so heavy loaded with responsibility. And that can be very frustrating, particularly as it shows up in relationships.  Now, an inflated responsibility may also present as people-pleasing, which is really an attempt to control how people feel about you. It may also present as giving a lot of money or time to charities or groups of people who are less privileged and so forth. Again, let’s get really nuanced. It doesn’t mean if you donate money that you have hyper-responsibility. A lot of these actions people may do from a place of value. But again, we always want to look at the intention of why they’re doing it, and are they doing it to reduce or remove this feeling that they’re having?  Another symptom of an inflated responsibility is over-researching unlikely threats or possible scenarios. You’re really doing it to try and prevent something bad from happening. Is it possible that someone could fall off a deck? Sometimes I’ll explain it to you, for me personally, often it’s related to the law. For me, it will show up in, “Oh, I’m a boss. I’m someone who has employees. What are all the possible scenarios that legally could impact me? Let me do a lot of research around that.” Until I catch it, and I’m like, “Kimberley, you’re engaging in a ton of reassurance here. Let’s not try to solve problems until they’re actually here and actually a problem.” Another example of an inflated responsibility is keeping physical or mental lists like, did you do this? Did you do that? Did you do this? That’s really an attempt to make sure nothing bad has happened.  One other thing is—I remember doing this a lot when I had a baby—checking the baby over and over. I felt that it was my responsibility to keep this baby alive, and yes, it was my responsibility to keep my baby alive. But I had somehow taken it upon myself that if something happened, I would be fully at fault. That it wouldn’t have been my husband’s fault, who’s laying right next to me, who is a fully engaged and loving dad. I had taken it on myself that 100% of the responsibility of her wellness and his wellness, my children are mine, and if something happened, 100% of the fault would be on me.  I have such compassion for the moms out there who experience this responsibility weight on their shoulders. I think number one, it’s societal. Number two, I think it’s normal, again. But number three, it’s so terrifying because often, not just for moms, for everybody here, the thing that we are worried about are often people we deeply love too. The things that we hold in high value. That’s again why it can be so incredibly painful.  Now, while these behaviors don’t necessarily, again, mean you have hyper-responsibility or OCD. Again, I want you to think of it like it’s on a spectrum. It is important to know that lots of people with OCD experience hyper-responsibility in many areas of their lives, and that hyper-responsibility shows up in many different subtypes of OCD, many themes of OCD. If you have OCD, you can really put that in your back pocket and keep an eye out and really increase your awareness of how hyper-responsibility is showing up and making it harder for you to overcome your obsessions and compulsions.  We can all agree as we move forward that hyper-responsibility deeply, deeply impacts somebody’s mental health and their overall well-being. My hope is now to give you some tools, some things that I’ve found helpful for me to manage that—things that I’ve had to practice over and over again.  WHAT CAUSES RESPONSIBILITY OCD & HYPER RESPONSIBILITY? Now, before I do that, let’s quickly check in on, often people will ask what causes responsibility OCD or hyper-responsibility. There are a couple of things to think about here. When I’m talking with patients who have OCD, I don’t spend a lot of time digging deep into childhood stuff and bringing up old events and so forth. For some people, that can be incredibly helpful. I tend to find it often does become compulsive and we spend a lot of time there instead of actually targeting the behaviors that are problematic. But for the sake of today, of just giving you some education, we do know that hyper-responsibility CAN, not always, but CAN come from childhood experiences and family dynamics. Often a child may feel it’s their job to take care of other people. Maybe they’ve been taught that. Maybe they’re the eldest sibling and they were given a lot of responsibility. Maybe their parents were very, very strict, and that for them, they felt that they had to maintain that perfect demeanor and perfect school report and so forth. We do know that childhood experiences, that environment that we were raised in can impact someone’s experience of hyper-responsibility.  We also know that brain disorders like OCD, other anxiety disorders, or even depression, or trauma—trauma is not a brain disorder—these mental health disorders can also exacerbate the theme of hyper-responsibility in people.  We also know that external pressures, societal expectations, the way our culture raises us can also add to a sense of hyper-responsibility. I know for me, as I’ve thought about this a lot recently, which was a part of the reason why I wanted to do this episode, I am a therapist; it’s an incredible weight of responsibility to be a therapist. I’m surrounded by laws and ethics and licensing boards and all of these rules. I find that the environment of my work can very much nurture my already inclination to have hyper-responsibility. I do think too the environment we are even in as an adult can keep this going.  And then the last thing I want to look at, which we’ll talk about here in a second, is simply irrational beliefs and rules we keep for ourselves can very much “cause” (I don’t like to use that word) and exacerbate hyper-responsibility.  STRATEGIES FOR MANAGING HYPER-RESPONSIBILITY Now that we have this and we can get a feel for why someone may experience this, now let’s talk about some strategies for managing hyper-responsibility. Because that’s why you’re here and that’s what I really love to do the most. Let’s talk about it. First, when I’m managing my own hyper-responsibility or I’m talking with patients about it, the first thing I do is get really clear on what is your responsibility and what is not. I often will do an exercise with my patients and say, “Okay, you are a human being. I want you to write me a job description of what you need to do to be a human being, to exist as a human being.” Let’s say I owned a supermarket and I hired someone to work at the register, the job description would say exactly what is your responsibility. It would say, “You need to turn up at this time, you need to leave at this time. When you come, you need to log in, you need to clock in, you need to put your uniform on. Here’s the things that you need to do that are your responsibility.” And then that employee has a very clear understanding of what their role entails.  Now, for you as a human, and everybody’s job description looks a little different, I want to first get clear on what is your responsibility. For me, I’ll use an example, I’m a mom, so I do have to be responsible for the well-being of my two children. But let’s get a little clearer on what that means. Does that mean I have to just keep them fed and dressed? Or does that mean for me and my values that I keep them fed and dressed and have a degree of emotional support, but to what degree? This is why I want you to get really clear on what it is for you and your values.  And then once we do that, you can actually sit with a trusted person—either a family member, a therapist, a mental health provider, or a loved one—and start to question how much responsibility you’re taking on. Of the things on your list, what are the things that are actually not in your control? Not in your control. Because if you have an anxious brain, remember your brain is going to tell you all of the worst-case scenarios. That’s your brain’s job. If you have an anxiety disorder, you’re probably got a hyperactive brain that lists them off like a Rolodex, da da, da, really, really fast. All the worst-case scenarios.  People with hyper-responsibility often use that Rolodex of information and just start adding that to their job description. “Oh, well, if there’s a possible chance that they could run out and whatever it may be, well then I have to protect for that,” even though it hasn’t happened and it’s highly unlikely. You can start to see, once you are looking at this list of rules you have for yourself, where you’ve pushed from just having a responsibility to having hyper-responsibility.  Another example might be in relationships. I’ll use again me as an example. My husband and I are going to be 20 years married this year. For years, I took on as my responsibility that I was supposed to keep him happy. Over and over again, I found that I was unable to do this because I’m a human being and I’m faulty and I’m going to make him mad and annoyed sometimes. But I’d taken this responsibility that it was my job to maintain his happiness. And that’s not actually the job description of being a human being. Once I started to go through this with my therapist at the time, I’m starting to see, I’m trying to control things that are out of my control.  The second thing I want you to think about is once you are clear on what is your responsibility, you have this great roadmap now. Now you have to think about staying in your lane. I may have talked about this on the podcast before, but I talk about this a lot with my patients. Once you’ve determined what is in your control, what is in line with your values, not just what anxiety’s telling you, but what you believe is a healthy limit for you, then you can work at keeping yourself within those parameters and practicing not engaging in picking up responsibility outside of your lane again.  We always use the metaphor of like, I’m in my car, I can control what kind of car I drive, what speed I go, that’s my responsibility. But let’s say my child is in the lane, metaphorical lane next to me, and they’re speeding like crazy, and they’re driving all over. My kids haven’t got a driver’s license, just stay with me for the metaphor. But let’s say my kid or my partner is in their car and they’re smoking and they’re checking their phone and they’re swaying all over and they’re doing all these things. I have to then determine, if I’m going to respond to that, what is my capacity in my lane. Let’s say it was my husband. I have to basically accept that he’s a full-grown adult who is responsible for himself, which sucks. Believe me, I know. This drove me crazy that I had to let him be in his own lane and I had to stay in my lane.  I remember having fights with my therapist, not actual fights, but conversations. I’m like, “If we were using this metaphor, he could die. He could get himself into trouble.” She would say, “Yes, and you’re going to have to decide what’s best for you. There’s no right for every one person. We’re not going to treat everyone the same, but you have to take responsibility for how much you engage in trying to control the people around you, and you also have to be willing to allow this to be out of your control sometimes.” You can imagine me sitting in the chair. This was way before COVID. I’m sitting back on the couch and my arms are crossed and I’m all mad because I’m just coming to terms with this idea that I can’t be responsible for everything, that I’m exhausted from trying, that I’m creating a lot of relationship drama because of my attempt to take control and be hyper responsible. I had to give it up. But the giving up of it, the staying in my lane required that I had to feel some really uncomfortable feelings. Let’s just take a breath for that because it was tough and it is tough. I’m sure if you are experiencing hyper-responsibility, you too are riding strong waves of guilt, regret, shame, anger, resent because of this hyper-responsibility.  If this is you, what you can also do is really double down with your mindfulness practice. The biggest, most important piece of this is increasing your awareness of where it shows up in your life, in what corner, and how it creeps into little parts of your life, and noticing when it does and why it is. In that moment, maybe the question might be, what is it that I’m unwilling to feel? What am I unwilling to tolerate in this moment, and how might I increase my willingness to feel these feelings of guilt or regret or shame, or anxiety, massive degrees of uncertainty? Can I allow them without engaging in these behaviors that just keep this hyper-responsibility going? It’s a huge test of awareness. And then we double down with kindness, and I’ll tell you why. Because when you have hyper-responsibility, you’re probably going to be plagued with guilt. You feel guilty for all the things happening with someone. We feel anxious because we didn’t get it right. We couldn’t keep the things straight and perfect and it’s really, really heavy.  In order for us to negotiate with ourselves through those emotions in a non-compulsive way, we have to have a self-compassion practice where we give ourselves permission to get it wrong sometimes. We give ourselves permission to make mistakes sometimes. We allow things to fall apart. That’s the hard part, I think. It feels so wrong to not be fixing things all the time. It can feel so irresponsible to not be preventing things and we have to be willing to navigate and ride through that compassionately. Now, if you’re someone who really struggles with guilt, I’ve got two podcast episodes that you really need to go and listen to. Number one was Episode 161, which is all about this idea that feeling guilty does not mean you have done something wrong. A lot of people with anxiety, hyper-responsibility, and OCD think and feel that if they feel guilt, it must be evidence that they did something wrong. We have a whole episode, Episode 161 again, where you can go and listen and learn about how our brains make mistakes on this one.  In addition, if you are someone who has OCD and you really struggle with regret and guilt, we also have another Episode 310. It wasn’t that far gone, that I talked about how regret and guilt are also obsessions. Meaning we have intrusive thoughts, we have intrusive feelings, and sometimes the intrusive feeling is guilt and regret. Please do use that resource as well.  And then the last thing I would want you to think about here is, for those of you who are in the background listening, but secretly thinking, “But I have screwed up. I have made mistakes. I’ve made so many mistakes and I need to make sure that never happens again,” number one, let me slow down for a sec—I want to first acknowledge that you are a human and you will make mistakes just like I am a human and we will continue to mess up over and over again. Let’s just get that out in the open. Let’s just come to a place where we can acknowledge and humble ourselves with the fact that yes, we are going to make mistakes. A part of you in this moment when you’re saying, “But I’ve made mistakes, I’ve really screwed up,” is that you will not accept that that is a part of being a human. That is the tax on being a human, my friend. You’re going to have to come to a place of acceptance of that.  Often people say, “That sucks. I don’t want that,” and I’m going to keep saying, “But you will.” They’ll say, “But I don’t want to,” and I’ll say, “But you will.” We could go all day on that one. But if you are someone who actually did screw up, it then again becomes a concept or a practice of when you screw up, how do you handle it? Do you screw up and beat yourself up for days and days and months and months and years or years? Or do you screw up and learn from it and acknowledge your humanness and learn what the mistakes are, and then do your best to pivot within the rules in which you set in what we said was your lane? Because often what happens is we do all this work, we address our job description as being a human and what’s just within your line of values and what’s your regular human responsibility. And then when something goes wrong, they hypercorrect and they go back to these rules that include a lot of control, a lot of preventing, a lot of ruminating, a lot of making sure, and you’ve gone back to being in all of everybody’s lanes. If you’re struggling with this, you can go to Episode 293. I did an episode called “I Screwed Up, Now What?” I really think that that was an episode where I had made a massive mistake and I was navigating through it in real-time and sharing what I thought was helpful.  RESPONSIBILITY OCD TREATMENT If you’re wanting to learn more about responsibility OCD treatment, I’m going to strongly encourage you to look for an exposure and response prevention therapist who will be able to identify your specific subtypes and help apply an ERP plan for you. Now, if you cannot access professional help, you can also go to CBTSchool.com. We have ERP School, which is our online course teaching you how you can practice ERP. The course is not specifically about hyper-responsibility, but it will allow you to do an inventory of your specific set of obsessions, your specific set of compulsions, and put a plan together so that you can start to target these behaviors on your own. You can very much get up and running on your own if you do not have access to professional mental health. The whole point of me having those courses isn’t to replace therapy. It’s there to help you get started if you haven’t got any way to get started. Often people go there because they want to know more and they want to understand the cycle of OCD, and that’s why we made it. My lovely friends, that is hyper-responsibility. We’re talking about when you feel responsible for anything and everything and everyone. If that is you, let me leave you with this parting message: Please slow down and first recognize the weight that you’re carrying. Sometimes we have to do an inventory of the costs of this hyper-responsibility because it’s so easy just to keep going and keep carrying the load and pushing harder and solving more and preventing more. But I want you to slow down for you as an act of compassion and take stock of how heavy this is on you, how exhausting this is on you, and then start to move towards acknowledging that you don’t have to live this way, you don’t deserve to live this way. That there is another way to exist in the world compassionately and effectively without taking on that responsibility. If you need support, of course, reach out and get support because you don’t have to do it alone. There are ways to crawl out of this hyper-responsibility and get you back into that lane that’s healthy for you.  I’m sending you so much love. I hope you’re having a wonderful summer for those of you who are in the northern hemisphere. I have just gotten back from the southern hemisphere and I loved getting some sun. I’m so happy just to be here with you and keep working through this stuff with you and addressing these really cool, important topics.  Have a wonderful day. Do not forget, it is a beautiful day to do hard things. Take care.

Kimberley: Welcome. This conversation is actually so near and close to my heart. I am so honored to have Jessie Birnbaum and Sandy Robinson here talking about Managing the anxiety of chronic illness and disability. Welcome and thank you both for being here. Sandy: Thank you for having us. Kimberley: For those of you who are listening on audio, we are three here today. We’re going to be talking back and forth. I’ll do my best to let you know who’s talking, but if anything, you can look at the transcripts of the show if you’re wondering who’s saying what. But I am so happy to have you guys here. You’re obviously doing some amazing work bringing awareness to those who have an anxiety disorder, specifically health anxiety OCD, panic disorder. These are all very common disorders to have alongside a chronic illness and disability. Jessie, will you go first in just telling us a little bit about your experience of managing these things?  Jessie: Yeah, of course. I’ve had OCD since I was a little kid but wasn’t diagnosed until around age 14, so it took a little while to get that diagnosis. And then was totally fine, didn’t have any physical limitations, played a lot of sports. And then in 2020, which seems like it would coincide with the pandemic (I don’t think it did), I started getting really physically sick. I started out with these severe headaches and has continued on and morphed into new symptoms, and has been identified as a general chronic illness. I’m still searching for an overall diagnosis, but I’ve seen a lot of different ways in which my OCD has made my chronic illness worse. And then my chronic illness has made my OCD worse, which is really why Sandy and I are so passionate about this topic. Kimberley: Thank you. Sandy, can you share a little about your experience? Sandy: Yeah. Just briefly, I was born really prematurely at about 14 weeks early, which was a lot. And then I was born chronically ill with a bowel condition and I also have a physical disability called [02:31 inaudible] palsy. And then I wasn’t diagnosed with OCD until I was 24, but looking back now, knowing what I do about OCD, I think I would say my OCD probably started around age three or something. So, quite young as well. Kimberley: You guys are talking about illnesses or medical conditions that create a lot of uncertainty in your life, which is so much of the work of managing OCD. Let’s start with you Jessie again. How do you manage the uncertainty of not having a diagnosis or trying to figure that out? Has that been a difficult process for you, or how have you managed that? Jessie: It has been such a difficult process because that’s what OCD latches onto, the uncertainty of things. That’s been really challenging with not having a specific diagnosis. I can’t say, “Oh, I have Crohn’s disease or Lyme disease,” or something that gives it a name and validates the experience. I feel like I have a lot of intrusive thoughts and my OCD will latch onto not having that diagnosis. So, I’ll have a lot of intrusive thoughts that maybe I’m making it up because if the blood work is coming back normal, then what is it? I’ll have to often fight off those intrusive thoughts and really practice mindfulness and do a lot of ERP surrounding that to really validate my experience and not let those get in the way. Kimberley: Sandy—I can only imagine, for both of you, that is the case as well—how has your anxiety impacted your ability to manage the medical side of your symptoms? Sandy: I think that’s an interesting question because I think both my OCD and my medical symptoms are linked. I think when I get really stressed and have prolonged periods of stress, my bowel condition especially gets a lot worse, so that’s tricky. But I think as I’ve gone through ERP, and I’m now in OCD recovery, that a lot of the skills I’ve learned from being chronically ill and disabled my whole life, like planning, being a good self-advocate at the doctors or at the hospital and that flexibility, I think those tools really helped me to cope with the challenges of having additional anxiety on top of those medical challenges. Kimberley: Right. Of course, and I believe this to be from my own experience of having a chronic illness, the condition itself creates anxiety even for people who don’t have an anxiety disorder. How have you managed that additional anxiety that you’re experiencing? Is there a specific tool or skill that you want to share with people? And then I’ll let Jessie chime in as well. Sandy: Yeah. I think the biggest thing is, it was realizing that my journey is my journey and it might be a little slower than other people’s because of all the complicating factors, but it’s still a good journey. It’s my journey, so I can’t really wish myself into someone else’s shoes. I’m in my own shoes. I guess the biggest thing is realizing like my OCD isn’t special because I have these complicating factors, even though I myself am special. My OCD is just run-of-the-mill OCD and can still be treated by ERP despite those medical issues as well. Kimberley: Right. How about you Jessie? What’s your experience of that?  Jessie: I’d like to add to what Sandy had said too about the skills from ERP really helping. One of the things I feel like I’ve gone through is there’s so much waiting in chronic illness. You’re waiting for the doctors to get back to you, you’re waiting for test results, you’re waiting for the phone schedulers to answer the phone. I feel like I’ve memorized the music for the waiting of all the different doctors. But there’s a lot of waiting, and that’s really frustrating because the waiting is uncertain. You’re just waiting to get an answer, which typically in my case and probably Sandy’s and yours as well, then just adds more uncertainty anyways.  But I remember one of the tools that’s really helped me is staying in the present, which I’m not great at. But I remember I had to get an MRI where you literally can’t move. There’s only the present. You’re there with your thoughts, your arms are in, you can’t move at all. It was really long. It was like 45 minutes long. I remember just thinking the colors. What do I see? I see blue, I see red. I thought I had to think of things because then my eyes were closed and I was thinking of different shapes of like, “Oh, in the room before, I saw there was a cylinder shape and there was a cube.” That’s really helped me to stay in the present, especially with those really long waiting periods Kimberley: For sure. The dreaded MRI machine, I can totally resonate with what you’re saying. It’s all mindfulness. It’s either mindfulness or you go down a spiral, right? Jessie: Exactly. Kimberley: You guys are talking about skills. Because I think there’s the anxiety of having this chronic illness or a disability or a medical condition. What about how you manage the emotions of it and what kind of emotions show up for you in living with these difficult things that you experience? Sandy, do you want to share a little about the emotional side of having a chronic illness or a disability? Sandy: Yeah. I think the first thing that shows up for me emotion-wise, or did at least when I started to process the idea that I have a disability and I have these chronic illnesses and it’s going to be a lifelong thing, was I was in my undergraduate university and I really hadn’t thought much about what it’s like to-- I had thought about having a disability, but I hadn’t thought about the fact that I needed to process that this is a lifelong thing and it’s going to be challenging my whole life. I think when I started to process that, the grief really showed up because I had to grieve this life that I thought I should have of being able-bodied or medically healthy or mentally well, I guess. I had to really grieve that. But I think that grief shows up sometimes unexpectedly for me too because sometimes I feel like I moved past this thing that happened. But then because it’s an ongoing process to navigate chronic illness and disability, the grief shows up again at unexpected times.  I think the other thing too I’ve navigated was a lot of shame around the idea that I should be “normal.” But of course, I can’t really control how I was born and the difficulties I’ve had. I think something that really helps me there is bringing in the self-compassion. I do think that compassion really is an antidote to shame because when you bring something out to the forefront and say, “This is something that I’ve experienced, it was challenging,” but I can still move forward, I think that really helps or at least it helps me.  Kimberley: Yeah, I agree. Jessie, what are your experiences? Jessie: I would say the first two words I thought of were frustration and loneliness. I think there’s a lot of frustration in two different ways. The first way being like, why is this happening? First, I had OCD, and then now I have this other thing that I have to deal with. As Sandy was saying before, there’s a lot of self-advocacy that has to happen when you’re chronically ill, or at least that I’ve experienced, where you have to stand up for yourself, you have to finagle your way into doctor’s appointments to get the treatment that you deserve. But there’s also the frustration that both OCD and my chronic illness, I guess, are invisible. I look totally fine. I look like someone else walking down the street who might be completely healthy. I often feel frustrated that as a 23-year-old, a person who is a young adult, I’m having to constantly go to these doctor’s appointments and advocate for myself and practice ERP, which is not always the most fun thing to do. It’s frustrating to constantly have to explain it because you don’t see it. And then that goes together with the loneliness of being a young adult and being pretty much the only person in the doctor’s offices and waiting rooms who isn’t an older adult or who isn’t elderly. And then they get confused and then I get confused. My OCD will then attack that like, “Everyone else is older. What are you doing here?” I would definitely say loneliness, and I just forgot the other thing. Loneliness and frustration.  Kimberley: I resonate with what you’re saying. I agree with everything both of you are saying. For me too, I had to really get used to feeling judged. I had to get good at feeling judged, even though I didn’t even know if they were judging me. But that feeling that I was being judged, maybe it’s more magical thinking and so forth. But that someone will say like I have to explain to someone why I can’t do something. As I’m explaining it, I have a whole story of what they’re thinking about me, and that was a really difficult part to get through at the beginning of like, “You’re going to have to let them have their opinions about you. Who knows what they’re thinking?” That was a really hard piece for me as well. I love that you both brought in the frustration and the loneliness because I think that’s there. I love that we also bring in the grief, and I agree, Sandy. Jessie, do you agree in terms of that grief wave just comes at the most random times?  Jessie: Absolutely. Kimberley: It can be so, so painful. Let’s keep moving forward. Let’s go back to talking about how this interlocking web of how anxiety causes the chronic illness to get worse sometimes, the chronic illness causes anxiety to get worse sometimes. Sandy, have you found any way that you’ve been able to have a better awareness of what’s happening? How do you work to pull them apart or do you not worry about pulling them apart?  Sandy: Oh, that’s an interesting question. I think I have a few strategies. I do try to write everything down. I make notes upon notes upon notes of, this day I had these symptoms. I do automate a lot of tasks in the fact that I have a medication reminder on my phone, so it reminds me to take my pills instead of just having to remember it off the top of my head. Something that really helps is trying to remember that things that work for other people might actually also work for me too, because it’s like, yeah sure, maybe me as a person, I’m unique and my medical situation is interesting or different or whatever. But a lot of good advice for other people, especially for mental health works for me too, like getting outside. Even if I feel really not great and I’m really tired or in a lot of pain, just like getting outside. Anytime I have my shoes on and I’m just outside even for five minutes, I count that as a win. Drinking a lot of water, for me, helps us too. Of course, I’m wary of saying all this because a lot of people might just say, “Oh well, Jessie and Sandy, they just need to do more yoga and that’ll just cure them.” Of course, it’s not that simple. It’s not a cure at all. But at the same time, I try to remember that at least for me, I have common medical issues that a lot of different people have so I can pull on literature and different things that I’ve worked for other people with my conditions. Maybe other people haven’t had this exact constellation that I do, but I can still pull on the support and resources from other people too. Kimberley: How about you, Jessie? Jessie: If I could add there, I’m not as good as differentiating. I can tell, like I know when things are starting to get compulsive, which I actually appreciate that I had had so much ERP training before I got sick because I really know what’s a compulsion, what’s an obsession and I can tease that out. But a lot of my treatment has also been really understanding, like maybe I don’t need to know if this is my chronic illness or if this is my OCD because then that gets compulsive. I’ve had to sit in that uncertainty of maybe it is one, maybe it is the other, but I’m not going to figure it out. Kimberley: You read my mind because as you were both talking, I was thinking the most difficult part for many people that I see in my practice is trying to figure out and balance between advocating going to the doctor when you need, but also not doing it from a place of being compulsive because health anxiety and OCD can have you into the doctor surgery every second day or every second hour. How are you guys navigating that of advocating, but at the same time, keeping an eye on that compulsivity that can show up? Sandy, do you want to go first?  Sandy: Yeah. I honestly haven’t figured out the perfect formula between trying to figure out like, is this anxiety around the potential that I might be getting sick again and compulsively trying to get things checked out, and the idea that I might have something actually medically going wrong that needs to be addressed. I find it still challenging to tease those things apart. But I think something that does help is trying to remind myself like, not what is normal, because I don’t think normal really exists but what is in the service of my recovery. I can’t have recovery from my disability or my chronic illnesses, but I can’t have OCD recovery. I’m always still trying to think to myself, how can I move forward in a way that both aligns with my values and allows me to move forwards towards my recovery? Kimberley: How about you, Jessie? Jessie: It’s so hard to follow that, Sandy. I love that. I would say, I think it’s tough because a symptom that I have is like, I was never really a big compulsive Googler. But I know in OCD world, it’s like, “Don’t go to Google for medical issues. Google is not your friend.” But for my chronic illness recovery or chronic illness journey, Google’s been important. I’ve had to do a lot of research on what is it that I possibly have. And that really helps me advocate my case to the doctors because I’ve had some great doctors, but they’re not spending hours reading medical journals and trying to figure it out to the extent that I care about it because it’s my situation and I want to figure stuff out. Googling has actually helped me a lot in that regard and joining different Facebook groups and actually hearing from other people what their experiences have been.  I know Sandy and I started a special interest group, which hopefully we’ll talk about a little later, but someone in the group had mentioned that something that really helps them is the community of their doctors and their therapists working together of, oh, I’m going to wait two days if I have this symptom and if it’s still a symptom that’s really bothering me and my therapist thinks it should be checked out, then I’m going to go to the doctor. Having those people who are experts guiding you and helping you with making sure, no, this isn’t compulsive, this is a real medical thing that needs to be checked out—I thought that was really smart and seemed to work for her, so I’d imagine it would work for other people as well. Sandy: I guess if I can add-- Kimberley: I have a question about that. Yes, please. Sandy: Oh, sorry. If I can add one more thing, it would just be that, while there’s so many experts on OCD and ERP and your chronic medical issues or your disability or whatever it is for you, you are the only frontline expert in your own experience of your mind and your body and you are the only one who knows what it’s like to exactly be in that, I guess, space. While I 100% think therapy is important, evidence-based treatments are important, I do also think like remembering when you think like, “Oh, this is really hard,” or “I can’t cope,” actually, you can cope, you’re capable and you know yourself best. I think that’s challenging because I know sometimes in ERP, for people who maybe don’t have other complicated medical challenges, they would say, “Don’t Google.” But I think, as just Jessie has explained, sometimes because we have other chronic stuff going on, we do need to do things to help ourself holistically too. Kimberley: I love that. I’ll speak from my own experience and if you guys want to weigh in, please do. I had to always do a little intention check before I went down into Google like, okay, am I doing this because anxiety wants me to do it, or am I doing it because this will actually move me towards being more informed, or will this actually allow me to ask better questions to the doctor and so forth? It is a tricky line because Google is the algorithm and the websites are set to sometimes freak you out. There’s always that piece at the bottom that says, “It could be this, this, or this,” or “It could be cancer.” That always used to freak me out because that was something that the doctors were concerned about as well. This might be beyond just Googling, but in terms of many areas, how did you make the decision on whether it was compulsive or not? Jessie? Jessie: It’s tough too because then you’re down the rabbit hole. You’ve already been Googling it and it’s like, “Or this,” and I’m like, “Well, I have to figure out what that is.” Sometimes it does get a little compulsive and then the self-compassion, and also realizing it like, okay, now it’s getting compulsive and I’m going to stop and go about my day. But another thing that I’ve struggled with is the relationship with doctors. Sandy and I have talked about this before with wanting to be the “perfect” patient. I worry that I’m messaging them too much or I’ll often now avoid messaging them because then I don’t want to be too annoying of a patient. I can’t be the perfect patient if I’m messaging them all the time. It really is, like you said, the intention. Am I messaging them because I want to move forward with this and I want an answer, or am I messaging them because there’s a reason to message them and I need their medical advice? There’s just so much gray in it. Again, not necessarily having that specific answer, it can be very tricky. Kimberley: It truly can. How about you, Sandy? Sandy: I think the biggest thing for me, and I’m still trying to figure out the right balance for this, is weighing how urgent is this medical symptom. Am I-- I don’t know, I don’t want to say something that would put someone into a tailspin, but do I have a medical symptom going on right now that needs urgent attention? If so, maybe I should go to my doctors or the ER. Or is the urgency more mental health related, feeling like an OCD need to get that reassurance or need to know, and just separating the urgency of the medical issue that’s going on right this second versus the urgency in my head.  Kimberley: Amazing. You guys have created a special interest group and I’d like to know a little more about that. I know you have more wisdom to tell and I want to get into that here a little bit more. But before you do, share with us how important that part of creating this special interest group is, how has that benefited, what’s your goals with that? Tell us a little bit about it, whoever wants to go first. Jessie: Sandy and I actually met in an online OCD support group, and I found those online groups to be really helpful for my OCD recovery and mostly with feeling less shame and stigma. Met some amazing people clearly. And then I remember Sandy had mentioned in one of the different groups that she had a chronic illness. When I was going through my chronic illness journey, I felt really alone. As I was saying before, the loneliness is one of the biggest emotions that I had to deal with. I looked online, and now online support groups are my thing. Let’s just Google chronic illness support groups. I thought it would be as easy as OCD support groups, and it wasn’t. It was very challenging and it was really hard to find one.  I found one that was state-based. For my state, it was me and three women. I think one was in their eighties, the other two were in their nineties, and they were very sweet. But we were at very different lifestyle changes. We were going through very different experiences. I remember I reached out to Sandy and I said, “Do you have any chronic illness support groups that you’ve been attending?” Even in that group with the elderly women, there were so many things that they were saying that helped them with their chronic illness and my OCD would totally have latched onto all of it. I was like, “I can’t do that with my OCD.” There’s so much overlap that it just seemed like there needed to be this dual chronic illness and OCD. Sandy had said she had the same issue, like it was really hard to find these groups.  I think we’re really lucky that the International OCD Foundation was such a good partner for us and they were so kind in helping us get this special interest group started. I’m interested to hear what Sandy says, but it’s been so helpful for me to see that there are other people who deal with a lot of these challenges. Of course, I wouldn’t want anyone else to have these experiences, but being able to talk about it, being able to share has just been so helpful. I was really quite amazed to see the outreach we had and how many people struggled with this and that there really weren’t any resources. It’s been pretty amazing for me and I’m really lucky that we’ve been able to have this experience. Kimberley: Amazing. Sandy? Sandy: Similar to Jessie, I had found some resources for OCD support groups both locally to me in Ontario and online, and that was great. The sense of community really helped my OCD recovery. But then when it came to the chronic illness disability part, there was just a gap. As Jessie said, we started this special interest group and I think it’s called—Jessie, correct me if I’m wrong—Chronic Illness/Disability Plus OCD is our official title. Basically, it’s for anyone who has a chronic illness or disability and OCD, or is a clinician who’s interested in learning more. Our goals really are to create a community, but also create resources for the wider OCD community to help people who are struggling with chronic illness or disability and OCD or clinicians.  The sense of community has been great. I think for my own recovery OCD-wise, it’s been really motivating to be able to help found and facilitate this group because it’s showed me that I really don’t have to be in this perfect state of recovery to have something valuable to contribute. I just have to show up in an imperfect way and do my best and that is enough in itself, and that the fact that I don’t have to get an A+ in recovery because that’s not even a thing you can get. I just have to keep trying every single day and try to live my values. I think this SIG’s been a great opportunity to embody those values as well of community and advocacy. It’s just been great. Kimberley: Oh, I love it so much and it is such an important piece. I actually find the more I felt like I was in community, that in and of itself managed my anxiety. It was very interesting how just being like, “Oh, I’m not alone.” For some reason, my anxiety hated this idea that I was alone in this struggle. I totally just love that you’re getting this group and I’ll make sure that all of the links are in the show notes so people can actually access you guys and get connected.  I have one extra question before I want to round this out. How do you guys manage the—I’m going to use the word “ridiculous”— “ridiculous” advice you get from people who haven’t been what you’ve been going through? Because I’ve found it actually in some cases to be quite even hilarious, the suggestions I get offered. Again, I know patients and clients have had a really difficult time because they might have been suggested an option, and then their anxiety attaches to like, “Well, you should do that,” and so forth. Sandy, do you want to go first in sharing your experience with “ridiculous” advice? Sandy: I guess to give a brief example, a practitioner who I’ve worked with for quite a while, who I think is great and a wonderful person and wonderful practitioner, had in the last couple months suggested that maybe I should just try essential oils to manage my bowel condition. What actually was needed was hospitalization and surgery. It’s that kind of advice from both well-meaning practitioners or just people in my life that can be not what you need to hear and maybe not as supportive as they’re hoping it would be. I guess for me, I manage it mostly by saying, “Thank you, that’s a great idea,” even when it’s not really a great idea. I just say to myself or maybe to a support person later, “That was not the best advice.” Just debriefing it with someone I think is really helpful, someone that I trust.  Jessie: Kimberley, I love this. I think, Sandy, our next SIG, we should ask this and hear all the ridiculous advice that people have been given because it’s true. There’s so many things that are so ridiculous. I’m going to shout out my mom here who I love more than anything in the world, but even my mom who lives with me some of the time and sees what I go through, one time she called me (she’s going to kill me) and she said, “I heard there’s a half-moon at 10:30 AM your time and if you stand outside, it will heal some of your rear rash.” I was like, “What? That’s absurd.” She was like, “I know, I think it’s absurd too, but you need to do this for me.” With that, you see she just wants me to get better. As Sandy was saying, people really want to help and this is a way they think they can help. I’ve also been told like, “Oh, if you mash up garlic and then you put--” it was like this weird recipe, then you want to had it. Just ridiculous things. But people are really well-meaning and they want to help. Unfortunately, those often don’t really help. But now I can laugh about it and now text my mom and be like, “You’ll never guess what so-and-so said,” or text Sandy and we could have a good laugh about it. But that’s what’s nice about community. You’re like, “Wait, should I do this essential oil thing?” And then you realize from others, “No, that’s probably not the best route to go.” Kimberley: For me, with anxiety, self-doubt is a big piece of the puzzle. Self-doubt is one of the loudest voices. When someone would suggest that, I would have a voice that would say, “It’s not going to hurt you to try.” And then I would feel this immense degree of self-doubt like, “Should I? Should I not? What do you think?” “You could try. You should try.” I’m like, “But I literally don’t have time to go and stand in the sun and do the thing,” or in your example. I would get in my head back and forth on decision-making like, “Should I or shouldn’t I?” “It wouldn’t hurt.” “It sounds ridiculous, but maybe I should.” And that was such a compulsive piece of it that would get me stuck for quite a while. It’s often when it would be from a medical professional because it really would make you question yourself, so I fully resonate with that. Sometimes I wish I could do a hilarious Instagram post on all of the amazing advice I’ve been given throughout the time of having POTS. Some of it’s been ridiculous.  Let me ask you finally, what advice would you give somebody who has an anxiety disorder and is at first in the beginning stages of not having these symptoms and not knowing what they are? Jessie, will you go first? Jessie: Yeah. I would say a big thing, as we’ve been talking about, is finding that community whether that be reaching out to us with the SIG or whether that be finding a Facebook group or online group or whatever it may be, because it has helped me so much to reach out and be in a community with others who really understand. There’s nothing like people who truly get it. And then I would say to validate like, this is really tough. Having OCD is tough. Having a chronic illness or disability is tough, and having both is very, very tough. Validate those symptoms too because I think there’s a lot of people that will say, “Oh, you have an anxiety disorder, you’re probably making that up,” and that comes up a lot. Just validating that and really trying to find other people who are going through it because I think that’s just irreplaceable. Kimberley: Sandy? Sandy: I think the biggest thing to echo Jessie would be try to find community. I think for me, for my OCD recovery journey, Instagram has particularly been great because there’s so many wonderful OCD advocates or clinicians on Instagram. It’s really a hub for the OCD community. I would say check out Instagram and once you follow a couple of people from the OCD community, the algorithm will show you more so it’s nice that way. I think the other thing is that being disabled or having a chronic illness can really chip away your confidence. Just reminding yourself that you’re doing the best you can in a really hard situation, and it may be a long-term situation, but just because your life is different than other people doesn’t mean that it’s not going to be a great life. Kimberley: I’m actually going to shift because I wanted to round it out then, but I actually have another question. Recently, we had Dr. Ashley Smith on talking about how to be happy during adversity. I’m curious, I’ll go with you, Sandy, first because you just said, how do you create a wonderful, joyful life while managing not only an anxiety disorder, but also chronic illness or disability? What have you found to be helpful in that concoction per se? Sandy: I listened to that episode with Dr. Smith and that was a wonderful episode. If people haven’t listened to it, I recommend it. I listened to it twice because I just wanted to go back and pick out the really interesting parts. But I think for me, the combination of finding things that are both meaningful from a values and an acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT) perspective, meaningfulness, finding those things that matter to me, but also finding the things that challenge me. If I’m having a really bad pain day or fatigue day, the things that challenge me might just be getting out of bed, or maybe I’m really depressed and that’s why I can’t get out of bed. Either or, your experience is valid, and just validating your own experience and bringing in that self-compassion and saying, what is something that can challenge me today and bring me a little closer to recovery? Even if it’s going to be a long journey, what’s this one small thing I can do, and break it down for yourself. Kimberley: Amazing. I love that. What about you, Jessie?  Jessie: I would say I’ve been able to find new hobbies. I’m still the same person. I’m still doing other things that I found meaningful and this doesn’t. Well, it is a big part of my life. It’s not my entire life. I’m still working and hanging out with friends and doing things that regularly bring me happiness. But just a small example, I said before, I used to play sports and love being really active and that gets a little harder now. But something I found that I really love is paint by numbers because they’re so easy. They’re fun, they’re easy, you don’t have to be super artistic, which is great for me. I’m able to just sit down and do the paint by numbers. Even recently I had friends over and it was like a rainy day and we all did a craft. Even though it was a really high-pain day for me, I was in a flare of medical symptoms, I was still able to engage with things that I find meaningful and live my life. Kimberley: I love that. Thank you. That’s so important, isn’t it? To round your life out around the disability or the chronic illness or your anxiety. I love that. We talked about those early stages of diagnosis, any other thing that you feel we absolutely have to mention before we finish up? Sandy? Sandy: I guess to quote someone you’ve had on the podcast before, Rev. Katie, I find her content amazing and she’s just a lovely person. But she always says, you are a special person, but your OCD is not special. Your OCD isn’t fundamentally different or it’s never going to get better. You got to remember that you are the special person and your OCD doesn’t want you to recognize that you are the thing that’s special, not it. Just be able to separate yourself from your anxiety disorder or your chronic illness or your disability, saying, “I’m still me and I’m still awesome, and these things are just one part of me.” Kimberley: So true. I’m such a massive Katie fan. That’s excellent advice. Jessie? Jessie: To go the other route, I think you said right with people who are first going through this. I would say we recently did a survey of our SIG, so people who have chronic illness and OCD. We haven’t done all the data yet, but the thing that really stood out was we asked the question like, have you ever felt invalidated by a medical professional or mental health professional, and every single person said yes and then explained. Some people had a lot to say too. I think I’ve really learned in this process that you have to be a self-advocate. It’s very challenging to be an advocate when you’re going through a mental disorder, a physical disability, and/or both. It’s required. Really standing up for yourself because it’s going to be a tough journey and there’s so much light in the journey too. There’s so many positive things and so much “happiness” from the episode before, but there’s also a lot of difficulties that can come from being in the medical world as well as the mental health world and really trying to navigate both of them and putting them together. Really try to advocate for yourself or find someone who could help you advocate for yourself and your case because I think that’ll be really helpful. Kimberley: So true. You guys are so amazing. Jessie, why don’t you go first, tell us where people can get resources or get in touch with you or the SIG, and then Sandy if you would follow. Jessie: We have an Instagram account where we’ll post-- we’re experiencing with Canva. We’re really working on Canva and getting some graphics out there about the different things that come up when you have both of these conditions. And then that’s where we post our updates for the special interest group. Sandy, correct me if I’m wrong. @chronically.courageous is our Instagram handle. And then in there, the link is in our bio to sign up for the special interest group. You get put on our email list and then you’ll get all the emails we send with the Zoom links and everything. And then you could also go to the International OCD Foundation’s website and look at the special interest groups there and you’d find ours there. Sandy: The other thing is we meet twice a month. We meet quite frequently and we’d love to have you. So, please check out our Instagram or get at our email list and we would love you to join. Kimberley: You guys, you make me so happy. Thank you for coming on the show. I’m so grateful we’re having this conversation. I feel like it’s way overdue, but thank you for doing the work that you’re doing. Thank you so much. Jessie: Thank you. Sandy: Thanks for having us.

Kimberley: My tummy already hurts from laughing too much. I’m so excited to have you guys on. Today, we are talking about thriving in relationships with OCD and we have Rev. Katie O’Dunne and Ethan Smith. I’d love for you both to do a quick intro. Katie, will you go first? Katie: Yeah, absolutely. My name is Reverend Katie O’Dunne. I always like to tell folks that I always have Reverend in my title because I want individuals to know that ordained ministers and chaplains can in fact have OCD. But I am super informal and really just go by Katie. I am an individual who works at the intersection between faith and OCD, helping folks navigate what’s religious scrupulosity versus what is true authentic faith. I’m also an OCD advocate on my own journey, helping individuals try to figure out what it looks like for them to move towards their values when things are really, really tough. Outside of being a chaplain and faith in OCD specialist and advocate, I’m also an ultramarathon runner, tackling 50 ultramarathons in 50 states for OCD. As we get into stuff with Ethan today, Ethan is my biggest cheerleader throughout all of those races. I’m sure we’ll talk all about that too, running towards our values together. Ethan: My name is Ethan Smith. Katie is my fiancé. I’m a national advocate for the International OCD Foundation, a filmmaker by trade, and a staunch advocate of all things OCD-related disorders. Definitely, my most important role is loving Katie and being her biggest cheerleader. Katie: Since you said that, one of my things too, I am the fiancé of Ethan Smith. Sorry. Ethan: Please note that this is an afterthought. It’s totally fine. Kimberley: No, she knew you were coming in with it. She knew. Ethan: Yeah, I was coming in hot. Yup, all good. WHAT IS IT LIKE BEING IN A  RELATIONSHIP WITH SOMEONE WITH OCD? Kimberley: Thank you both for being on. I think that you are going to offer an opportunity for people to, number one, thriving in Relationships with OCD, but you may also bring some insight on how we can help educate our partners even if they don’t have OCD and how they may be able to manage and navigate having a partner with OCD. I’m so excited to have you guys here. Thank you for being on. Can you first share, is it easier or harder to be in a relationship with someone with OCD? For you having OCD? Ethan: I’ll let Katie start and then I’ll end. Katie: Yes. No, I think it’s both. I think there are pros and cons where I think for so long being in relationships with individuals who didn’t have OCD, I desperately wanted someone to understand the things that I was going through, the things that I was experiencing, the intensity of my intrusive thoughts. I was in so many relationships where individuals felt like, well, you can just stop thinking about this, or you can just stop engaging in compulsions. That’s not how it works. It has been so helpful to have a partner through my journey who understands what I’m going through that can really say, “I actually get it and I’m here with you in the midst of that.” But I always like to be honest that that can also be really, really challenging where there are sometimes points, at least for me, having OCD with a partner with OCD, where if we are having a tough point at the same time, that can be really tough. It can also be really tough on a different level when I see Ethan struggling, not reassuring him even more so because I know how painful it is and I want so badly to take that away. There are times that that can feed into my own journey with OCD when I see him struggling, that my OCD latches onto his content, vice versa. There’s this amazing supportive aspect, but then there’s also this piece I think that we have to really be mindful of OCD feeding off of each other.  Ethan: I was just making notes as you were-- no, go ahead.  Kimberley: No, go ahead, Ethan. I’m curious to know your thoughts. Ethan: Katie made all great points, and I agree. I mean, on the surface, it makes a lot of sense and it seems like it’s fantastic that we both can understand each other and support each other in really meaningful and value-driven ways. I always like to say that we met because of OCD, but it by no means defines our relationship or is at the heart of our relationship. It’s not why we work. It’s not what holds us together. I think Katie brings up two good points. First of all, when I would speak and advocate with parents and significant others and things like that, and they would say, “I’m having a really hard time not reassuring and not enabling,” I’d be like, “Just don’t, you’re making them sicker. Just say what you got to say and be tough about it.” Then I got in a serious relationship with Katie and she was suffering and hurting, and I was like, “Oh my God, I can’t say hard things to her.” I became that person. I suddenly understood how hard it is to not engage OCD and to say things that aren’t going to make her comfortable. I struggle with that. I struggle with standing my ground after a certain amount of time and wanting to desperately give in and just make her feel better. I just want her to feel better.  For me personally, I lived alone for 10 years prior to meeting Katie, and those 10 years followed my successful treatment and recovery from OCD. For me, my mother was my safe person. I learned during treatment and therapy that you don’t talk about your OCD around your parents anymore. You just don’t. That’s not a conversation you have. I found myself, other than within therapy, not ever talking about my OCD. I mean, advocacy, yes, but my own thoughts, I never talked about it.  Starting to start a relationship with Katie, I suddenly had someone that understood, which was wonderful, but it also opened up an opportunity for OCD to seek reassurance. I’m an indirect reassurance seeker. I don’t ask for it as a question; I simply state what’s on my mind, and just putting it out there is reassuring enough for me. For instance, like, “Oh, this food tastes funny.” Whether she says it does or it doesn’t, I really don’t care. I just want her to know that I think that it does, and it could be bad. I think this is bad. I’m not saying, “Do you think it’s bad?” I’m like, “I think it’s bad. I think there’s something wrong with this.” I’ve had to really work and catch myself vocalizing my OCD symptoms because having a partner that understands has given my OCD permission to vocalize and want to talk about it. That honestly has been the biggest challenge for me in this relationship. NAVIGATING OCD REASSURANCE SEEKING IN RELATIONSHIPS Kimberley: So interesting how OCD can work its way in, isn’t it? And it is true. I mean, I think about in my own marriage, at the end of the day, you do want to share with someone like, “This was hard for me today.” You know what I mean? That makes it very complicated in that if you’re unable to do that. That’s really interesting. Let’s jump straight to that reassurance seeking piece. How do you guys navigate, or do you guys create rules for the relationship? How are you thriving in Relationships with OCD related to reassurance seeking or any compulsion for that matter? Katie: A couple different things. I think part of it for us, and we by no means do this perfectly, I’d have to have conversations about it even-- yes, Ethan, you might do it perfectly, but even in the last week, we’ve had conversations about this where what Ethan responds well to is very different from what I respond well to. I think that is really important to note, especially when there’s two partners with OCD, that it’s not one size fits all. It’s not because I understand OCD that I know exactly how to respond to him. It’s still a conversation. For me, I respond really well if I’m seeking reassurance or I’m struggling to a lot of compassion where he doesn’t respond to the content, but tells me, “I know that this is really hard. This sounds a lot like OCD right now, but let’s sit with it together. I know that it sucks, but we can be in the midst of this. We aren’t going to talk about it anymore, but I love you. We’re going to watch a show. We’re going to do whatever it is we’re going to do, we’re going to be in it together.” I respond really well to that.  Ethan, on the other hand, does not respond quite as well to that and actually responds better to me being like, “Hey, stop talking about that. We are not going to talk about this right now. I have heard this from you so many times today. No, no, no, no.” He responds in a harsher tone. That’s really hard for me because that is not naturally what comes out of me, nor what is helpful for me. Sometimes the compassion that I offer to Ethan becomes inherently reassuring and is just not something that’s helpful for him, so we have to have these conversations. Vice versa, sometimes when I’m really struggling, he’ll forget the compassion piece works for me and is like, “Hey, Katie, no. Stop doing that.” I’m like, “Seriously? This is really hard.” Being able to have those conversations.  Kimberley: How do those conversations look, Ethan? Can you share whatever you’re comfortable sharing? Ethan: Yeah. Katie hit over the head, first of all. We are definitely products of our therapists when we’re struggling. For those of you that may or may not know, Katia Moritz, she is hardcore, like here’s what it is, and I’m a product of that. There’s like, “Nope, we’re not going to do it. We’re not going to have it. OCD is black and white, don’t compulse, period. End of story.” Katie is like, “Let’s take a moment.” My natural instinct on how I respond to her is very different to what she needs and vice versa. We’ve learned that. I would say that the rule in our household is we’re a no-content household. I’m not saying we succeed at that all the time, but the general rule is we’re not a content household. We don’t want a no content. You can say that you’re struggling. You can say that you’re having a hard day. You can say that OCD is really loud today. Those are all okay things. But I don’t want to hear, and Katie doesn’t want to hear the details because that inevitably is reassuring and compulsy and all of those things. That’s our general rule. I’ll talk for me, and I don’t know, Katie, I’ll ask you ahead of time if it’s okay to share an example of our conversation, but my stuff, like I said, it’s covert reassurance seeking and she does it too. We’re both very covert. We’re like well-therapized and we know how to-- Katie: It’s really funny because I can tell when he’s sneaky OCD reassurance-seeking. Nobody else in my life has ever been able to tell when I’m secretly seeking reassurance. It’s actually frustrating because he can call me on it because he’s really good at it too. There’s some level of accountability with that. Ethan: For sure. For me, I’ll get stuck on something and I’ll just start verbalizing it. That’s really the biggest thing I think, unless Katie has some other insight, and she may. But for me, verbalization of my thoughts, not specifically asking for a specific answer and simply saying, “Oh, my chest feels weird. I’m sure I’m dying. My heart is about to give out.” How are you going to respond to that? What are you going to say right now? And that’s my system. She’ll be like, “Okay, yup. You may.” To be honest, I’ll call Katie out, she really struggles with giving me-- she’s like, “Ethan, I’m sure you’re fine.” I’m like, “Why did you say that?” She does. She really struggles with-- Katie: It’s interesting because I work with folks with OCD all the time and I don’t reassure them, but it’s so interesting because it feels so different with my partner knowing how much he’s struggling and I just want to be like, “You know what this is, it’s fine.” But yeah, working on that Kimberley: If he’s struggling, then you said sometimes you will struggle, it makes sense that in that moment you’re like, “You’re fine, you’re fine.” You don’t want them to have a struggle because you know it might even impact you, I’m guessing. Katie: Well, yeah. It’s funny, all of Ethan’s stuff is around bad things happening to him. All of my stuff is around bad things happening to other people. If Ethan’s worried something bad’s going to happen to him, I’m like, “No. I can’t handle that. I don’t want to worry that you’re going to die. Let’s not put that on the table.” Ethan: We discovered it was true love when my OCD was worried about her. She’s like, “Baby, it’s about me. It’s not about you.” It’s true love. No question. Katie: He had never had obsessions about someone else before. I was so excited. He was like, “Am I going to kill you in your sleep? Is that going to happen?” I was like, “Oh my gosh, you do love me. So sweet.” Ethan: But to answer your question, conversely, when Katie is struggling, she gets loopy and she directly asks for reassurance. I can definitely get frustrated at it at a certain point. I always feel like one time is appropriate. “Do you have a question or concern? Do you think blah, blah, blah?” “No, I don’t think so. I think that’s totally appropriate.” And then the second time, “Yeah, but do you...” I was like, okay, now we’re starting to move into OCD land and I stay compassionate up to a certain point and then I’ll get frustrated because it will be so obvious to me. As she said, myself is so obvious to her. I just want to be like, “Katie, can you see this makes no sense at all?” But when she’s really struggling, not just the superficial high-level or low-level OCD hierarchy stuff, when she’s really, really deeply struggling, it’s challenging. I really struggle with not giving her the reassurance that her OCD craves because I can’t stand to see her suffer. Sometimes I wish that I didn’t know as much about OCD as I do because I actively know that I’m helping OCD, but giving her that instant relief in the moment, it just pains me.  We’ve definitely changed our relationship style as we’ve gotten to know each other and been able to say things like, “I know this doesn’t feel good. I don’t want to say these things to you, but I really, really don’t want to help OCD and hurt you. I really, really want to help you get better in this moment and hurt OCD and just put it to bed, so I’m not going to answer that.” We’ve had to have those communicative conversations to be able to address it when it does cross the line.  I will say we’re pretty well., we do pretty good, but that’s not to say that there aren’t times where we can both get in a rabbit hole. To Katie’s point and to your point, it gets sticky sometimes. I literally never checked an oven in my entire life till I moved in with Katie. And then now she’ll mention it or I’ll be closing up the lights and I’ll be like, I’ve never looked and thought about it. But Katie talks about it and that’s one of her things, and like, “It latched on. I’ll take it,” and like, “No, no, no. Ethan. Everything’s going to burn down.” Yes, moving on. Katie: Likewise, I’ve never checked my pills multiple times to make sure that I didn’t take too many or worried that there was glass inside of my glass from hitting it. I mean, there’s things that were Ethan’s that I now think about. It’s really interesting because I think we actively work to not give into those things, but that’s definitely a process to you where they were things that I never would’ve gotten stuck on before. We have these conversations too of being able to call each other out. Well, actually, comedy is a really big thing in our house too, so we also like to call it out in a way of like, “Hey, you’re stealing my themes. Stop it. That’s mine. Come on, let me have that stomach bug thing.” Kimberley: Isn’t that so interesting, though? We constantly get asked what causes OCD, and we never can really answer the question. We say it’s a combo of nature and nurture and you guys are touching on the nurture piece in that, yes, we are genetically predisposed to it, but that other people’s anxiety around things can create anxiety for us. I actually feel the same way. There are so many things my husband is anxious about, or my kids. Now I’m hyper-vigilant about it. That’s so interesting that you guys are seeing that in real life.  HOW TO SUPPORT A LOVED ONE WITH OCD  Ethan: Yeah, for sure. And then Katie brought up a great point, which is, I think the most challenging times, and they don’t happen often, is when we’re both struggling simultaneously. How do you support each other in that moment? First of all, what’s very funny is we like to joke we both have OCD and we’re both only children. It’s one of those households. Literally, we’ll cook a frozen pizza and we’ll sit there and size up the half to figure out which one’s bigger and then be like, “Are you sure you want that one? I want that.” It’s a thing.  When we’re both struggling, it’s like, “No, you need to listen to me.” “No, no, no, no. You need to listen. It’s my thing. It’s my thing.” It’s been few and far between where we’ve both really been significantly struggling simultaneously, but we’ve managed it. We learn how to be able to struggle and listen and support. It’s no different than advocating when you’re not feeling your best. You can still be compassionate and sympathetic and offer advice that is rooted in modalities of treatment and still be struggling at the same time. We may not get the empathy that we want because maybe we’re just not in a place or we’re pouring from an empty cup or whatever, but fortunately, those times aren’t that frequent. But when they do happen, we’ve navigated and managed really well, I think.   Katie: And even just-- oh, sorry.  Kimberley: No, please, Katie. Go ahead.  Katie: I was going to say, even with that, having conversations around it, I think, has been really helpful. We’ve had moments of being really honest. Particularly earlier this year, I had some tough stuff that happened and I was in a place of grief and then also OCD was coming into that. Ethan, it lined up at some points with some difficult points that you had. There were some times that you were honest about saying, “I am just not in a place to respond to this right now in this moment in a healthy way.” I think that’s actually one of the best things that we can do too. Of course, OCD sometimes gets frustrated at that, “Hey, why can’t you talk about it right now?” But I think having those honest conversations as a couple too so that we can both offer care to ourselves and to one another in the midst of those times that we’re struggling is really, really important. SETTING BOUNDARIES IN RELATIONSHIPS WITH OCD Kimberley: You answered actually exactly what I was going to say. There are times when we can’t be there for our partner. When that is the case, do you guys then go to your own therapist or to a loved one? Not to get reassurance or do compulsions, but just have a sense of containment and safety. Or are you more working towards just working through that on your own? How do you guys navigate thriving in Relationships with OCD when your partner is tapped out?   Katie: We both have our own therapist and that’s really, really helpful. We both actually have conversations together with the other person’s therapist. Ethan will meet with his therapist and we’ve had times when he’s struggling where I’ll come in for a half session to talk about, hey, what’s the best way to respond to him and vice versa. I’ll meet with my therapist separately, but we might bring him in for 20 or 30 minutes for him to learn, hey, what’s the best way to respond to Katie right now? We both have those separate spaces to go and talk about both what we’re navigating and what we need, but also how to respond to our partner and then collaborate with one another’s therapist. I mean, that has been so helpful for me because there have been points where I don’t know how to respond to what Ethan’s navigating. To hear directly from his provider as opposed to feeling like I have to take on that role is so crucial. And then, Ethan, you meeting with my therapist earlier this year, oh my goodness, was so helpful because she had given me all this insight that I just wasn’t in a place to be able to share because I was struggling. For you to hear that directly from her and what she thought that I needed I think was a huge step forward for us. Ethan: Yeah. It’s nuanced. It’s not a one size fits all. Yes, it’s all ERP or ACT or DBT or whatever. But it’s all specific to what we’re all going through. I will say it’s funny because as we’re talking, I’m like, “I didn’t ask Katie if these things I could say or not.” Katie: I’m afraid to say that. You can literally say anything. I pretty much talk all the time about all this. Ethan: For sure. I think one of the things that really, really helped our relationship in terms of navigating this is, when I first met Katie and we started dating, she wasn’t seeing a therapist actively. It was challenging because as someone that is well-versed in OCD, we would constantly talk about things and she would divulge a lot of information to me. I started to feel like I didn’t want to take on an advocate or therapist’s role with her. I wanted to be her boyfriend. I was really struggling because I really wanted to support her and I really wanted to be. That was never a question, it was not supporting her. But for the same reason that we tell parents like, “Don’t police your kids, be their parents,” and hear how that can backfire, it was really challenging to navigate being a significant other and also supporting her, but not becoming that person that her OCD goes to.  I think her finally landing on a therapist that was right for her and good for her where she can get that objectivity that she needs and I can too learn what she needs from me as a partner, not that there was anything wrong with our relationship, but really allowed our relationship to grow and really allowed us to focus on what we should be focusing on, which is each other and who we are to each other and what’s important to our lives and our family. Our therapists can handle our OCD. That doesn’t mean that OCD doesn’t get involved. It does. But for the most part, that was really where our relationship really got to level up. We both were able to turn to our therapists, but also include each other in treatment so we can have open and honest conversations about what’s going on.  DO I TELL MY PARTNER ABOUT MY OCD OBSESSIONS? The other thing I’ll say is, we have no secrets. We literally have no secrets. As a first timer to a long-term relationship, because my OCD Obsessions wouldn’t let me have a long-term relationship any longer than four or five months, as a first-timer in the three-year club on May 9th, I really feel like that is such a crucial piece to our relationship. We watch reality shows and it’s like, “You went through my phone,” and it’s like, “Well, I don’t care. She knows my passwords. I have nothing to hide.”  I always say that individuals with OCD would make the worst thieves. Could you imagine? I put myself in a position of robbing a house. There’s no way I wouldn’t worry that one piece of DNA was not left in that house. I find hair on my pillow all the time. There’s no possible way I could ever burglarize anyone and not think I would be caught. We’re not transparent because we know that that will alleviate our OCD. We’re transparent because I think honesty is really important in a relationship and so is communication. We always advocate that having therapy and having access to treatment shouldn’t be an exception at all. That should be the standard. It should be accessible, should be affordable, should be effective. Absolutely, no question there. But with that being said, Katie and I were both fortunate enough to have really good treatment and I think our relationship reflects that. Not to say that we’re perfect all the time, but I think we’re too highly therapized individuals that began our relationship with honesty and communication and have continued that through and through. I think that has enabled us to not only grow as a couple but also helped us manage our own OCD and the OCD of each other and how we interrelate. HOW TO ENCOURAGE SOMEONE WITH OCD  Kimberley: Right. I think that is so true. As you’re talking, I’m thinking of people who are at the very beginning stages. They didn’t have any idea about OCD and they’ve been giving reassurance, they’ve been asking for reassurance, and there’s tantrums because the person isn’t giving the right reassurance. What would you encourage couples to do if they’re newly to treatment, newly to their diagnosis, and their goal is to be thriving in Relationships with OCD? Katie: There’s so many different things, and I know this is different for every person, but even if they’re new to that process, getting their partner involved in therapy, meeting with their therapist, having them learn about OCD, again, Ethan talked about, not from a space of the partner becoming the therapist, but having an understanding of what the person is going through so that they’re not reassuring, so that they’re not accommodating. But I say this to folks all the time, again, so that you’re not also being so hard and so rigid so that you can still be the person’s partner in the midst of that. I think being able to understand what their triggers are, what their symptoms are, what’s coming up, so that you can say, “Hey, I’m your partner. I love you. I can’t answer that, but I’m here.”  I think figuring out what that looks like with the provider, but also with the partner is just so beyond important to have an effective relationship, one, so that you’re not just closing it off so that you can’t talk about it, but two, so that, as Ethan said, you don’t become the therapist because that’s not healthy either. I think we have in our relationship almost tried both extremes at different points of, “Hey, we’re not going to talk about it at all,” or “Oh, we’re going to talk about everything and we’re going to totally support each other through every aspect.” I think with each person, it’s finding that balance of how we can be a couple with open and honest communication, but we’re actually still each other’s partners and not each other’s therapists. Kimberley: Yeah. Do you have any thoughts, Ethan? Ethan: I was just thinking. I mean, she nailed it. I don’t know that I have anything to add to that, whether you both have OCD or one of you has OCD. I was actually thinking earlier on in the relationship, and about divulging your OCD and when it’s appropriate. We get so many questions from so many people about, when I’m dating, when am I supposed to let them know? When am I supposed to talk about it? I have very aggressive feelings about OCD and dating, and as amazing as somebody may look and be like, “Oh my God, I would love to be in a relationship with a partner that has OCD because then I don’t have to explain anything.” I did not date to specifically find somebody with OCD. When I met Katie, we were friends long before we were together.  Katie: We always say that, like he was my best friend that I happened to meet through the OCD community, that we fell in love during COVID because he was my best friend, and because we had so much that connected us beyond OCD. I know you said this earlier, Ethan, but we get the question all the time, “Oh, if I just had a partner with OCD...” and that is not. If all we had in common was our OCD, this would not work out because it actually can make it even more challenging. But it’s what’s beyond that. I always think we shouldn’t be in a relationship or not in a relationship based on our diagnosis. It’s about who the person is and how we can support them for who they are. Ethan: Yeah, for sure. You actually raised a good point. I was going to talk about, and we can maybe come back to it, when to talk about your OCD to your partner, when it’s appropriate, when you feel it’s appropriate, this difference between wanting to confess about your own OCD and feeling like they need to know right now that I have OCD so I’m not dishonest with them and I don’t hit them with the big secret down the road. We can talk about that. But you raised-- wow, it was a really interesting point that I totally forgot. Katie, what did you just say? Go ahead. Katie: No, I was just talking about not being in a relationship because of the OCD and really having--  Ethan: I remember. Katie: Okay, go ahead. You got it.   HOW TO HELP YOUR LOVED ONE UNDERSTAND WHAT IT'S LIKE TO HAVE OCD Ethan: Yeah. I’d be curious to Kim’s thoughts. But I think with OCD individuals, whether it’s a significant other or family and friends, and I’ve been talking about this a lot lately, we’ve talked about, okay, how do I get someone to understand what OCD is? How do I help them understand what I’m going through? We did a town hall on family dynamics last week for the IOCDF and we’ve had multiple conversations about this. I’d be curious to Kim’s thoughts. I think there’s a difference between having a partner or a family member, whatever, being able to support you in an effective, healthy, communicative way, and fully understanding what you’re going through. I think those are two different things. I don’t think that an individual needs to know and feel exactly what you’re experiencing going through to be able to understand and support you. I think as individuals with OCD, we have this inherent need for our partners or people that we care about to know exactly how we feel and exactly what we’re going through. “You need to know my pain to understand me.” I think that is a big misnomer.  I think honestly, that’s a potential impossible trap for a relationship when you’re dating someone or with someone that doesn’t have OCD. The likelihood of that individual, while you can give them examples, the likelihood of them actually truly understanding your own OCD experience is unlikely. Just like if Katie had had cancer and went through treatment, I’ll never know what that’s like. But that doesn’t mean that I can’t be sympathetic and empathetic and support her and learn about the disease state and be able to be a really, really wonderful partner to her. I think for individuals that are in relationships with individuals that don’t have OCD, if you resonate with this, being able to release this idea of like, they need to know exactly what I’ve gone through. Really the real thing they need to know is, how can I be a supportive partner? How can I support you in a meaningful, healthy, value-driven way so we can have the best possible relationship? I don’t know if I ever said that, but Kim, I’d be open to your thoughts.  Kimberley: No, I agree. Because the facts are, they won’t get it. No matter how much you want them to get it, they will get it, but they won’t have experienced something similar to you. But I think like anything, there’s a degree of common humanity in that they can relate without completely having to go through it. They can relate in that I too know what it’s like to be uncertain or I too know what it’s like to have high levels of anxiety. Or even if they don’t, I too can understand your need for certainty in this moment or whatever it may be.  I think the other thing to know too is often when someone needs to be understood and they insist on it, that’s usually a shame response. There’s a degree of shame that by being understood, that may actually resolve some of that shame. If that’s the case, they can take that shame to therapy and work through that and get some skills to manage that, because shame does come with mental illness. Often I find some of the biggest fights between couples were triggered by a shame emotion. They felt shame or they felt embarrassed or humiliated, or they felt less than in some way, or the boxing gloves are on. How do you handle, in this case, conflict around-- I don’t know whether you have any conflict, but has conflict came up around this and how do you handle it? SHAME + GUILT IN RELATIONSHIPS WITH OCD Katie: One piece with the last component, and then I’ll shift into this. I think as you were talking, the shame piece resonates with me so much. I’m definitely someone that even through the OCD experience, guilt and shame are much heavier for me than anxiety or fear or anything else, that feeling really challenging. I think that the biggest piece that helped to combat that actually had to do with my relationship with Ethan, not specifically because he knew every ounce of my themes or what I was going through, but simply because of the empathy that he showed me. I talk often about how because of shame in my OCD journey, one of the reasons I struggled to get better for a long time was I didn’t feel like I deserved it. I didn’t feel like I was good enough because of my intrusive thoughts. I didn’t like myself very much. I hated myself actually. Ethan, by loving me, gave me (I’m going to get emotional) permission to love myself for the first time. It wasn’t because he specifically knew the ins and outs of my themes, but simply because he offered empathy and loved me as a human being, and showed me that I could do that for myself. That was a huge step forward for me. I think every partner can do that.  I used to talk with my students when I was in education about empathy, and I would always say you don’t have to experience the exact same thing that your friend experienced to say, “Oh, I can put myself in your shoes.” To your point, Kim, I know what sadness feels like. I know what this feels like. I know what that feels like. I think just showing empathy to your partner, but also showing them that they truly do deserve love in the midst of whatever they’re experiencing with their OCD can be such a healing component. I just wanted to say that, and now I’ve forgotten the other part of your question.  Ethan: Well, wait, before she asks it, can I piggyback?  Kimberley: Yeah.  Ethan: I’m going to just offer to Katie. Katie’s shared that story before and it’s really special. Always, I was just being me and seeing something beautiful in her and wanting it to shine. But something that I don’t think I’ve ever talked about ever is what she did for me in that same context. I always saw myself as a really shiny car, and if you saw me surface, I was really desirable. I knew my first impressions were really solid. But if you got in me and started driving, I got a little less shiny as the deeper you went. It was really hard to get close to Katie and let her in. Katie and I haven’t talked about this in a while, but when we started getting intimate, I would never take my shirt off with the light on. I would hold my shirt over my stomach because I was embarrassed about my body. She’s an athlete. I’m not an athlete. When we would walk and I would get out of breath, the level of embarrassment and shame, I would feel like, how could this person love me? Now I’m going to get emotional, but it took me a long time to be able to-- this morning, I was downstairs making breakfast without a shirt. I didn’t think about it. She taught me that the parts of myself that I thought were the ugliest could actually be loved. I had never experienced that beyond my parents. But even beyond that, I don’t know that they had seen pieces of my OCD, pieces of me as a human being, as an individual. Katie taught me about unconditional pure love and that even what I deemed the most disgusting, grossest parts of myself, even seeing those.  My biggest fear with Katie was her seeing me. I don’t panic often, like have major panic freakouts, but there are a few things that I do. My biggest fear was her seeing me. I kept saying, “Just wait. Wait till you see this, Ethan.” It comes out every now and again. “You won’t love that person.” Early on, I had a thing that I panicked and she was nothing but love and didn’t change anything. For weeks, I was like, “How can you still love me?”  It doesn’t necessarily relate to your question, but I wanted to share that because I think that for so many that really see themselves as broken or cracked, I think it’s real easy to look really good on the surface. But I think that being willing to be vulnerable and honest and truthful-- and Katie’s the first woman I’ve ever done that with, where I was literally willing to go there despite what my OCD told me, despite what my head told me and my brain told me. I just think that’s also created a really solid foundation for our relationship. I just wanted to share that. Kimberley: That full vulnerability is like the exposure of all exposures. To actually really let your partner see you in your perceived ugliness, not that there’s ever any ugliness, but that perceived, that’s the exposure of all exposures in my mind. You have to really use your skills and be willing to ride that wave, and that can be really painful. I love that you guys shared that. Thank you for sharing that, because I think that that’s true for even any relationship. That is truly thriving in Relationships with OCD! Katie: Absolutely. SEEING BEYOND OCD  Ethan: Yeah, for sure. OCD can definitely get sticky even with that. It’ll start to question, well, does she still love me because of that? She says she does, but does she really-- even my brain now goes, “She can’t possibly love my body. That doesn’t make sense. That doesn’t make sense.” So funny thing about Katie, we were early on in our dating, we were struggling. She’s laying on me. She’s like, “You’re the most comfortable boyfriend I’ve ever had.” I was like, “Yeah.” And then I started thinking like all she’d ever dated before me were triathletes, like washboard dudes. I was like, “Huh, thank you?” She’s like, “No, no, it’s a good thing. It’s a good thing.” I’m like, “Okay. Yeah.” It’s very funny, but I also loved it. Katie: I do the same thing with you. I mean, all the time, everything’s still. Three years in, we’re getting married in September, stuff will come up and it’s like, “Wait, you saw this, this part of myself that I think is really ugly. You still love me?” Like, what? It gives me permission every time to love myself. Ethan: That’s such an interesting relationship dichotomy between the two of us. I don’t mean to venture away from your question, Kim, but it’s so interesting. I don’t see any of the things that she sees in herself. She could freak out for a week and I would still see her as this perfect individual who I couldn’t love more. She feels the same about me. It’s so weird because we see each other in the same light, but we don’t see ourselves in that light. It is amazing and I feel a little selfish here to have a partner to be able to remind me of how I should see myself. I hope that I give Katie that same reminder and reassurance, but it really is amazing to be able to see that within our partner because I’ll do something and I’ll be like, “Wow.” She’s like, “Yeah, that didn’t change anything for me.” I’m like, “Really?” Because that’s how I feel like, “Oh, okay.” Because that’s how I feel when you do. “Okay, we’re on the same page.” Kimberley: Let’s just delete the last question because I want to follow this. I love this so much. It actually makes me a bit teary too, so we might as well just cry together. What would you say to do for those who don’t understand OCD and maybe perceive it as “ugliness”? I’m sure there are those listening who are thinking, “I wish my partner could see beyond my anxiety and how I cope.” What advice would you give to them?  Katie: Ethan, you go first. Ethan: It’s a hard question. It’s a hard question to answer. It’s thundering and you get it twice since we’re in the same house. I think one thing I was going to say before, and maybe this will get tight, and this doesn’t answer your question directly, Kim, but I’m hoping we can get to it, is when somebody asks me like, “I have OCD and I want to date and get in a relationship, well, how do I do that?” I have very strong feelings about that particular question because I don’t want to dive into acceptance and commitment therapy and this whole concept of being able to do both things simultaneously, which is very value driven and we’re going to feel the feels and have the ick and we don’t have to wait for the perfect moment. But I’ve always believed that if your OCD at that time is so severe that it’s going to heavily impact your relationship, and the reason that you have to tell the person that you’re interested in all about your OCD is because you have expectations of that person to reassure and enable, and you’re going to need that from that person, I would always say, you might not want to get in a relationship right now. That may not be the best timing for you to get in a relationship.  I always would want somebody to ask themselves like, if you’re in therapy and you’re in treatment or wherever you are in your process and you know that you shouldn’t be seeking things from somebody and reassurance, enabling and so forth and so on, then that’s a different conversation. But I think at first, being honest and true to ourselves about why we’re divulging, why we want them to know about our OCD, and what we’re going to get out of this relationship—doing that from the beginning, I think, then trickles over into your question, Kim, about like, what if they don’t understand? What if they don’t get it? Because going into a relationship with this idea of, “Well, they need to know so they can keep my OCD comfortable,” is very different than my OCD doesn’t necessarily play a prominent role in my life, or maybe it does, but I’m in treatment and I need them to know and then they may not understand. I think that that’s like a different path and trajectory. Katie? Yeah, go ahead.  Katie: I think that’s such an important component. It’s interesting. I heard a very different side of the question. I was thinking about maybe someone who is already in, whether it’s a romantic relationship or-- Ethan: No, that was the question. I didn’t know what to say yet, so I was being like, “Well...” Yeah, no, that was the question. You heard that right. YOU ARE WORTHY & LOVABLE WITH OCD Katie: It was really important too. This might sound really simplistic, but I think it’s so important. Just based on, oh my goodness, my experiences with feeling for such a long time, I was defined by my OCD or defined by my intrusive thoughts, or, oh, how could anybody love me in the midst of all of this? I want everybody to hear that regardless of how your OCD is making you feel right now, or how you’re feeling, you are not defined by your OCD. You are not defined by your intrusive thoughts. You are not defined by your disorder. You are an amazing human being that is worthy of love in all of its forms, and you’re worthy of love from yourself. You’re also worthy of love from a partner. I think sometimes there’s this feeling of, well, I don’t deserve love because of my OCD, or I don’t deserve someone to be nice to me or to treat me well. I’ve also seen folks fall into that trap. I’ve been in relationships that weren’t particularly healthy because I felt like I didn’t deserve someone to be kind to me because of my OCD, or like, oh, well, I’m just too much of a pain because of my obsessions or my compulsions, so of course, I don’t deserve anything good in this sense.  I want you to hear that wherever you are in your journey, you do deserve love and respect in all of its forms, and that the people that are around you, that truly love you, yes, there are moments that are hard just like they are for me and Ethan, where sometimes there might be frustrations. But those people that truly love you authentically, I really believe will be with you in the midst of all of those highs and lows, and continue to offer you love and respect and help you to offer yourself that same love and respect that you so deeply deserve. Kimberley: I love that. I think that that speaks to relationships in general in that they’re bumpy and they’re hard. I think sometimes OCD and anxiety can make us think they’re supposed to be perfect too, and we forget that it’s hard work. Relationships are work and it takes a lot of diligence and value-based actions. I think that that is a huge piece of what you’re bringing to the table. I want to be respectful of your time. Closing out, is there anything that you feel like you want the listeners to hear in regards to relationships and yourself in a relationship? Do you want to go first, Ethan? Ethan: Sure. Yeah, I agree. Let Katie close out. She’s amazing. I just want to echo, honestly, the last thing that Katie said was perfect, and I wholeheartedly agree. What would I want to bring into a relationship? I want to bring in my OCD or myself, what is going to be my contribution to a relationship, a romantic relationship. I definitely would want to bring me into it. I want to bring Ethan and not Ethan’s OCD. That doesn’t mean that Ethan’s OCD won’t tag along for the ride, but I definitely don’t want Katie to be initially dating my OCD. I wanted her to date Ethan.  I think what Katie said about that directly relates in the sense that love yourself, value yourself, realize your worth, know your worth. It’s so hard with OCD, the shame and the stigma and just feeling like your brain is broken and you don’t deserve these things, and you don’t deserve love. What’s wrong? It’s so hard. I mean, I say it humbly. When I say go into a relationship with these things, I know it’s not that simple. But I think that if you can find that place where you know what you have to offer as a human being and you know who you are and what you have to give, and it doesn’t have to be specific. You don’t have to figure yourself out of your life out, simply just who your heart is and what you have to give like, I don’t know who I am entirely; I just know that I have a lot of love to give and I want to give it to as many people as possible—own that and don’t be afraid to leave crappy relationships that are good, that because it’s feels safe or comfortable, it’s the devil you know in terms of how it relates to your OCD. You’re not broken. You’re not bad. You shouldn’t feel shame. OCD is a disorder. It’s a disease, and you deserve, as Katie said, a meaningful, beautiful love relationship with whomever you want that with. You deserve that for yourself. Stay true to who you are. Stay true to your values. If that’s where you are now, or if it isn’t where you are now, be willing to take a risk to be able to find that big, as Katie says, beautiful life that you deserve. It’s out there and it’s there.  To Kim’s point, I’m sorry, this is a very long last statement, so I apologize. But to Kim’s point, relationships are hard and life is hard. I really believed when I got better from OCD that in six months, I was going to meet my soulmate, make a million dollars, and everything would be perfect. Life did not happen like that at all. It’s 15 years later. But at a certain point, I was like, “I’m never meeting my person. OCD is not even in the way right now, and I’m never meeting my person. I’m never going to fall in love. I’m never going to get married.” Now we’re four months away from my wedding to being married to the most amazing human being. I truly believe that that exists for everyone out there in this community. Living a life that is doing things that I never would imagine in a million years. Please know that it’s there and it’s out there. If you put in the work, whether it happens the next day, the next year, or the next decade, it’s possible and it’s beautiful. Embrace it and run towards it.  Kimberley: Beautiful. Katie? Katie: I feel like there isn’t much I can add to that. I’m going to get teary listening to that. I think I’ll just close similar to what I was sharing before for anyone listening, whether it is someone with OCD or a partner or a family member, whomever that is, that you deserve love and compassion from yourself and from every single person around you. You are not defined by your OCD. It is okay, especially if you’re a partner, if you don’t respond perfectly around OCD all the time, because you know what, we are in the midst of a perfectly imperfect journey, especially when it comes to romantic relationships. But if you continue to lead with love, with empathy, and with compassion, and with trusting who you are, not who the OCD says you are, I truly believe that you’ll be able to continue to move towards your personal values, but also towards your relationship values, and that you so deeply deserve that. Kimberley: Oh, I feel like I got a big hug right now. Thank you, guys, for being here. I’m so grateful for you both taking the time to talk with me about this. Most of the time when someone comes to see me and we talk about like, why would you ever face your fear? Why would you ever do these scary hard things? They always say, “Because I’ve got this person I love,” or “I want this relationship to work,” or “I want to be there for my child.” I do think that is what Thriving in Relationships with OCD is all about. Thank you so much for coming on the show.  Katie: Thank you for having us.Ethan: Thank you for having us.

Welcome back, everybody.  Alright, alright, alright. You may already notice the sound of my voice has shifted, the tone has shifted, and that is on purpose. Actually, I’ve never thought of this, but it’s true. I often show up when I’m ready to do a podcast. I sit in front of my microphone, I’m in front of my desk, I take a deep breath and I just talk to you from a place of centeredness and calm, gathering as much wisdom as I can. That is a part of what I’m bringing today. But my other hope is I want to shift the tone a little bit because that’s what you have to do when you’re addressing this particular topic, which is motivation during depression. We’re talking about how to get things done during depression. That’s what we’re here for today. Thank you for being here. My name is Kimberley Quinlan. I’m a marriage and family therapist. I’m an OCD and anxiety specialist, and a lot of what I do is manage depression. That is because nearly 85% of cases of an anxiety disorder also have depression. That’s because anxiety is hard and it creates these feelings of depression inside us.  Today, I wanted to talk about how to cultivate motivation during depression because so often when we’re talking about either just managing depression or managing another mental health condition, you’re usually required to do a lot of homework, use a lot of skills, and also go about daily functioning. That is really hard when you’re experiencing depression.  DEPRESSION MOTIVATION CYCLE One thing I wanted to talk about first is just to get you guys familiar with what we call the depression motivation cycle. This is something that I talk to my clients about. I wouldn’t say it’s a science-based theory, but definitely, I think a lot of us will resonate with this. What I mean by the depression motivation cycle is when you have depression, you experience symptoms of depression, which I’ll share here in just a few minutes. But you experience these symptoms that cause you to then have lower motivation. But when you have lower motivation, you tend to not get to your daily functioning activities and you tend to maybe avoid some of the hard things in your life, which then causes more depression. And then once you have more depression, that often ends up leading you back into the cycle of having even less motivation because you’re feeling so hopeless, and the cycle continues and continues and widens and widens and spreads throughout your life. My hope today is that we can work towards breaking that cycle. I’m not going to overpromise that we will break it today because I’m always going to be as honest and realistic as I can with you guys. I don’t want to oversell that this is going to be a simple snap of the fingers, I have the solution for you. No, there’s a slow, gradual breaking of this cycle.  Number one, do I believe you can do this work? Absolutely. I want to heavy-load you with confidence at the front end, but also very much validating that it’s a process, it’s a practice. I want you to be as gentle with yourself as you can as we talk about this today.  Let’s take a breath, but let’s also stay in our mindset.  COMMON DEPRESSION SYMPTOMS & HOW TO GET MOTIVATED In understanding motivation during depression, we must consider, like I just said, common depression symptoms. We must understand them. One of the common depressive symptoms is hopelessness. Hopelessness is feeling like there is no hope for you. You might be having a lot of depressive thoughts such as, “What’s the point? There’s no hope. It’s not getting better.” These are symptoms of hopelessness. In addition to hopelessness, or maybe instead of hopelessness, if you have depression, you may experience the depression symptom of helplessness. Helplessness is where you feel like no one can help you. That your problem is different or separate to other people’s or too big than everybody else’s, and that there’s no one out there that can help you. That’s important to notice because one of the lies depression tells us is you are the only one that has this particular type of depression and you are the only one that can’t be helped, and that that means something about you. There’s some innate flaw about you that makes your life hopeless. It’s all lies. I just want you to know that. Another common depression symptom is worthlessness—feeling like you’re not enough, you’re not worthy. You don’t deserve to be here, to be loved, to be in connection with. Maybe you feel like you don’t deserve kind, wonderful, loving things or even pleasure. Worthlessness isn’t a very common piece of depression. As you can imagine, just hearing these words that I’m saying, it’s a horrible feeling. It’s a very deep, dark, gray place to be, and it’s not your fault.  Another common depression symptom is sleepless nights. You’re unable to sleep or oversleeping, sleeping day and night, hitting the alarm over and over again, turning it off, going back to bed, not getting to your daily functioning. Another huge one is exhaustion. People with depression will often go from many, many medical tests because they’re so exhausted and they think it must be a medical condition. You definitely should seek medical care and have an assessment always. But often it’s not a medical condition; it’s a common symptom of depression.  In depression, no motivation to do anything is common. In depression, no motivation to eat, to exercise, to engage in daily activities is also very, very common. Often daily functioning will be depleted completely if it’s a severe case of depression.  My hope today, first of all, to acknowledge this for you and validate this for you and hopefully bring a ton of hope, is to also talk about concepts that can help boost your motivation during depression because it’s not your fault. But there are ways we can slowly climb out of this deep, dark hole that we often can get into when we have depression. BOOSTING MOTIVATION WHEN DEPRESSED  Okay, let’s do it. We’re going to talk about how you can increase your motivation during depression. The first thing I want to encourage you to do is to embody this idea of becoming a kind coach. Now, for those of you who have read The Self-Compassion Workbook for OCD—that’s a book I wrote in 2021—it talks a lot about the kind coach. Maybe you’re already familiar with it. Or recently in Episode 343, we did a whole episode about talking back to anxiety, and that was all about using the kind coach voice to help get you through these difficult times. We also talked that you could also use that skill with depression.  What I mean by the kind coach is that when things are hard, when you are suffering, you tend to yourself in a way that is kind and you coach yourself forward. Often what we do is we criticize ourselves forward. Meaning we say, “Get up, you lazy thing, and just get your teeth brushed,” or “You’re such a loser if you don’t brush your teeth,” and we use self-criticism to motivate. I’m here to tell you, the science shows us that self-criticism, while it does get people to do things for the short term, it actually for the long term makes people more depressed. It reduces motivation, it increases procrastination, it lowers a person’s self-esteem and their sense of wellbeing. We want to take the pedal off of using self-criticism and move our pedal and accelerator towards talking to ourselves and coaching ourselves in a way that is kind.  What I’m not saying is that’s saying, “You’re the best, you’re wonderful.” That’s fine. If you want to try that, you can. But the kind coach from my perspective doesn’t usually talk like that. It’s usually encouraging like, “Just do one thing at a time. You can do it. One more minute,” and really focusing in on what are your strengths and how can we highlight those, and also what are your challenges and how can we not use those against you. We all have challenges. Let’s say you’re someone who has a challenge with time management. Maybe in that area, we really lean on, “What strengths do I have that I can rely on when it comes to time management,” instead of just saying, “You suck at time management, there’s no point.” I want you to practice being a kind coach. If you want more information about that, go back to listening to Episode 343.  Another way to boost motivation when depressed is what we call activity scheduling. Now this is a science-based skill that we use when we are practicing cognitive behavioral therapy, which is an evidence-based treatment for depression. Now for those of you who have taken Overcoming Depression, which is our online course for depression, if you’re interested, you can go to CBTSchool.com and you can enroll in that course. It’s an on-demand course where you can learn exactly the same skills that I would give my clients, but you’ll be using them on your own. It’s a self-led course and you have unlimited access to all of those strategies and skills. But we talk a lot about this behavioral skill of activity scheduling.  What I mean by that is, one of the biggest things that takes motivation away is a lack of routine, a lack of structure in our day. What we do when we first start treating someone with depression, or we’re starting to target depression, is we break the day up into sections. It might be two sections in the morning and two sections in the afternoon and one in the evening, and we’ll say, “Okay, you just have to do one thing in each of those sections.” You get to pick. It could be as simple as brushing your teeth, but you’ll put it in your schedule and you’re going to give yourself permission that that’s the only thing you have to do in that section if you’re unable to do that at the present.  Let’s say that you’re more in a high functioning area and you’re already doing a lot, but you’re also engaging in a lot of depressive rumination. We might actually keep your schedule the same, but schedule in times during your schedule to check in, use some skills, maybe do some journaling, maybe using some mindfulness activities and so forth. But we can actually use the scheduling to reduce problematic behaviors.  DEPRESSION MOTIVATION TIPS  Now, one of my go-to depression meditation tips for everybody is to set realistic goals and expectations for yourself. One of the things I notice about people with depression, and I’m also including myself here because I too have struggled with depression during different seasons of my life, is that we really want to achieve a lot with our lives. We have this idea of what life should look like. We have this idea of how great it can be, which is such a wonderful quality. But the flip side of that wonderful quality is that we have such rigid expectations for ourselves, and when we don’t meet them, we beat ourselves up.  Often what we can do is we can check in with these expectations and these unrealistic goals. We can check and say, “Okay, is this helping me be motivated?” Almost always, it’s no. Let’s say I’m sitting across from a patient in my office, I might say to them, “What would be a goal that you actually feel like you can achieve this week or today or this month?” When they set the bar a little lower, all of a sudden, a tiny inkling of motivation comes into them. From that place, they start to move forward. Whereas if they set these really high goals, they can’t access motivation. It’s so huge, it just feels hopeless. Again, it feels helpless. They feel worthless, those themes of depression. The motivation doesn’t light up inside them and they don’t do any of it. They don’t take even a baby step. If that’s you, I don’t want you to feel called out; I want you to feel understood. I want you to feel validated. I’m hoping that you can give yourself permission to set a goal that’s realistic, and it’s just for now. I know what you’re thinking. You’re thinking, “Well, geez, I’m never going to amount to anything if I set this low bar.” But the truth is, we start small and then we increase it over time.  Another thing to consider when addressing motivation during depression using your activity scheduling is incorporate self-care and healthy habits and whatever that means for you. If you’re someone who has depression and you’re not eating because of it, you’re going to have a low energy. When you have low energy, you don’t have any motivation to do anything. Incorporating scheduled meals, even if they’re not even that healthy to start with. It could be just whatever you can tolerate for the time being. But getting that nutrition into your body may be also what helps with motivation.  If you’re someone who is so depressed, unable to be out in nature and exercise, which we know based on science helps with depression, maybe you could schedule three minutes where you look out the window if that’s all you can do, or take a hike with a friend, or maybe just sit outside on a chair. Whatever it may be. I really don’t want to put expectations on you guys. I think it’s very personal, so you’ll have to think for yourself, “What is one thing I could do today that would really cultivate self-care?” A really important thing when you’re depressed is, it’s so important. I really want to emphasize this: Finding a support group, a team of support—a loved one, a family member, a friend, a therapist—support groups, actual structured groups is so important to help with that cycle of depression too. Remember we talked about that cycle of depression and motivation? Sometimes just feeling like you’re not alone in and of itself can create a little motivation, or feeling like you’re not alone can reduce that depression just a little bit, which can then help with that motivation piece.  One other thing to consider here, and I myself do this with my best friend, is I use her not only as support, but as an accountability buddy. I’ll tell you, actually, something I’ve struggled with recently is, as many of you know, we’ve gotten a puppy and out the window went my exercise plan. My exercise plan is so important for me in managing my medical condition, but it went out the window. I messaged her and I said, “Listen, I don’t want you to feel any responsibility about this, but I am just telling you, this is what I’m committing to. You don’t have to do anything. I’m just telling you so that you’re my accountability buddy. Every day that I do the thing I said I’m going to do, I’m going to send you a thumbs up emoji.” I said, “You don’t even have to do anything. I just need you to be there so I can be my sounding board.” There have been other seasons in my life where I’ve had things that I needed to get done, and I would say to her, “Can you be my accountability? Do you have the capacity?” She’s like, “Yes, of course. What do you need?” I’ll say, “I need you to text me on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to remind me to do such and such.” That’s fine too. Again, that doesn’t make you a loser. It doesn’t mean that you’re weak. It doesn’t mean anything. It just means we’re using effective skills to get you back on the bandwagon.  Now, that being said, there are some key components of getting motivated during depression and these key components, also what I would call a mindset, is leaning towards your values, getting really clear about what is it that you want out of your life. Again, let’s go realistic, but let’s look at the long term. Sometimes when we are depressed, the whole future looks like it’s hopeless. What we want to do is kindly get in touch with your why. Like what can you bring to the table? Why are you here? What do you want? What can you bring to the table for others or for yourself? I want to slow down here a little. I get that you might have no answers to that right now, and that’s okay. It might be as simple as just going, “Okay, what’s one value of mine that I want to lean on during this difficult time?” Values can help us make decisions about what’s best for us.  Another mindset shift that I want you to move towards is, don’t live your life according to what depression is telling you to do. Make choices based on the direction of your life you’re wanting to go. If you used to love swimming, try swimming again. If you used to love drawing, try doing more drawing, even if you’re depressed. Because what we know is that those hobbies, personal interests, more creative expression using your body, can actually create spaces for you where you’re opening your mind up to other things, not just putting your attention on your depression. A lot of my patients have said that they don’t want to go out and be with people or go on a hike or something, but once they’re there, they deeply feel the benefit of it. Sometimes it’s a matter of putting our attention on how you’ll feel once you get that thing done. Try to find things that bring you some joy or some fulfillment. But again, for this first part, don’t put too much pressure on that either because you mightn’t feel a lot of that to start with. But over time and with repetition, you will. Another really important piece, and you’re already hopefully doing it right now, is to lean on the people who are sources of inspiration for you. Hopefully, if it’s me, I’m honored. For me, it’s often like poetry, people who’ve been through it. I love Jeff Foster. He is a poet who has had depression and suicidal ideation and he’s just talks about it in such a beautiful, mindful way. I find it to be a very safe landing place when you’re feeling really down. And then the last thing to consider when addressing motivation for depression is, actually, after you’ve done any activity that you had to muster up a lot of energy to do, you celebrate. If you miss the celebrating part, you miss an opportunity to generate more motivation to keep going. If you do something hard and you go, “Whatever, it’s no big deal. I should have been able to do it yesterday,” you’re missing an opportunity. What I want you to do is throw a mini party in your mind. Or if that’s impossible, just text someone and say, “I did a hard thing today and it was...” and tell them what it was, so that you are celebrating, you are rewarding, you are congratulating yourself for taking steps towards these small victories. It’s so important.  And then the last thing I’m going to offer to you, which is a catchall for all of this is, don’t do it alone. If you have access, like I said before, to a therapist, a support group, it doesn’t even have to be a paid one; it could be a Facebook group. But being in a community, being in a group of people who get what it’s like for you can be a game changer. If you do have access to professional help, absolutely go and get help because they often will bring your attention to things you weren’t noticing, thought patterns that you didn’t realize that you had, and that can be so incredibly beneficial.  Now, with all of that said, I want to also emphasize this idea of, again, my voice hopefully is a little different and I’m trying to cheer you on. Let’s go. You could totally do this. Baby steps. What I want to remind you of is, surround yourself with people who lift you up, who have a high vibe if you can. If you haven’t got access to those people in real life, lean on singers and celebrities and even social media platforms that are encouraging, that are inspirational. A lot of my clients have said that Pinterest has been even helpful for them in that they go onto Pinterest and they google inspiring quotes. That could actually be something so simple that gets them up to brush their teeth. I hope that’s helpful. If you are interested in looking into Overcoming Depression, our online course, talking a lot about different skills you can use, go to CBTSchool.com or reach out to a therapist in your area. I really hope that this has sparked a little teeny tiny light inside you, and if so, I will be so happy.  Do not forget, it is a beautiful day to do the freaking hard things. Do not forget it. Write it on a piece of paper and read it off as many times as you need to remind yourself it’s okay that it’s hard, it’s not a bad thing that it’s hard, and that you can do those hard things. Sending you love. Have success. I’m sending you every ounce of love that I have. Talk to you soon.

Welcome back, everybody. Today we are talking about a topic that I commonly get asked as a clinician, I commonly get asked as an advocate for anxiety online and so forth, which is how to let go of intrusive thoughts. I think that this is such an interesting question because words matter. For those of you who know me, you’re going to know that words really do matter when it comes to managing anxiety and we have to get it “right.” When I say “right,” what I’m really saying is our mindset about anxiety and intrusive thoughts and any emotion really that is uncomfortable, we have to approach it with a degree of skill, effectiveness, and wisdom. My hope is to help you move in that direction. I know you’re already in that direction, but hopefully, this episode will be really powerful. I’m going to give you a metaphor that I hope really, really helps you. It really helps me. I’ve talked about it on the podcast before, but I feel like it’s important so I have to talk about it again.  When we talk about this idea of how to let go of intrusive thoughts, we have to ask, what do we mean by that? Often when people first start seeing me as a clinician or they start seeing my therapist—we have a private practice in Calabasas, California—we commonly will get, “Okay, just I’m here. I’m ready to do the work. Teach me how to let go of intrusive thoughts.” A lot of the beginning stages of treatment is educating on how letting go, meaning not having them anymore or quickly avoiding them or distracting against that, could actually be what’s making your anxiety worse. For those of you who’ve taken ERP School, which is our online course for OCD. If you’re interested, you can go to CBTSchool.com to learn more about that course. That’s where you can learn how to manage your own OCD. It’s an on-demand course. But we talk a lot about understanding that trying to push thoughts away or suppress thoughts, not having them actually reinforces the problem. I also want to mention, it makes total sense that your goal is to be able to have the thoughts and have no discomfort related. Like I just want to have the thoughts and I don’t want them to bother me, and I just want them to create no suffering at all. I get that. That is a very normal desire to have. But what we want to do here is, when we’re talking about how to “let go” of intrusive thoughts, what we are really talking about is how we can be skillful in how we respond to them, because we know, based on science, that we can’t control our intrusive thoughts. Often there are mechanisms in the brain that’s making it very difficult for you to pump the brakes on thoughts, which is why you’re struggling with so many of them, and they’re happening so repetitively. We know this.  When I first learned about mindfulness, one of the most important metaphors that just shook me to the core—it really changed the way that I learned to deal with thoughts, feelings, sensations, emotions, urges, and all the things—was to think of my thoughts like water in a stream, and that my mind is this stream of water. As you’re thinking like these beautiful green banks, and there’s the river in the stream, and it’s flowing in one direction. What happens for us when we’re experiencing our mind is we hit a rock in the stream. When we hit that rock, we want to imagine that that rock is a metaphor for an intrusive thought. Here you are, you’re the water. You’re just rolling over all of the banks and commandeering back and forth, and then all of a sudden you hit this very sharp, jagged rock. Of course, your reaction is to get jolted and go, “Oh my goodness, what is this? Why is this here? I’m just trying to get from A to B.” Often what we do is when we hit the rock, we make a huge splash. The splash goes everywhere. We’re like, “Wait, what happened?” When we do this, we actually create a lot of pandemonium for ourselves.  Now, that’s what we do. But if we were to think about a stream, what does the stream water normally do when it hits a rock? It hits the rock, it notices the shape of the rock, and then it gently goes around them. It doesn’t stop to go, “Is this a good rock or a bad rock? How do I feel about this rock? What does this rock mean about me? Why is there a rock here? There shouldn’t be a rock here.” The water just notices the rock, observes that the rock’s here. It doesn’t make a huge splash. It doesn’t try to go under it. It doesn’t try to stay on the left side of the bank and avoid it. It just notices the rock and it goes around it and it moves on.  Mindfulness is just that. Mindfulness is observing what shows up from a place of non-judgment, from a place of non-attachment. What I mean by that is that the water’s not attached to what this rock means about them. It doesn’t assign value to the rock. It doesn’t say the river is bad now because we have a jagged rock, or it doesn’t say the river is good because it’s a small rock. It just says “rock” and it goes around it. Mindfulness is also very present. It notices it. It doesn’t stop there and go, “Okay, I’m going to spend a lot of time solving this and I’ll get to the end of the river in my own jolly time.” It is often being moved by gravity, so it just keeps moving. It doesn’t slow down too much for that rock.  That’s the way I want you to now practice approaching your intrusive thoughts or your emotions, if you’re having other emotions, like strong waves of guilt or shame or sadness and whatever it may be. You’re going to notice the obstacle or the object. Be non-judgmental, not get caught up in a story about what it means about you that there is a rock in your stream of water, and you’re going to go around it. I was going to say quickly, but that’s not actually the right word. You’re going to go around it from a place of not gripping. Not gripping to that rock and so forth.  Now, here is where the metaphor continues. For those of you who are listening, my guess is, in your stream, in your mind metaphorically, you hit one rock, you go around it, but very, very quickly comes another rock. And then you might practice that and go, “Okay, all right, I did one. I’m going to notice this rock as well. I’m not going to assign value to it. I’m just going to notice it, be aware of it, be non-judgmental of it, and do my best to go around it without making too big of a splash.” You do it the second time. But then what happens? Another rock comes.  Often what my patients say to me, or like I said to you at the beginning, followers on Instagram or you listeners of the podcast will say, “I get what you’re saying.” One of the most common questions we get in ERP School in the portal where people ask questions is, “I get what you’re saying, but what happens if they just keep coming and coming and they just don’t stop?” That’s where I would say, again, the stream doesn’t get involved in a conversation about what this mean. It just hits the rock and goes around the rock and moves to the next one and the next one and the next one, and it takes one rock at a time.  What we often do—and I’m the worst at this, I have to admit—is once we’ve hit 4, 5, 6 rocks, we then shift our gaze not on the present moment, but we look down the stream and we go, “Oh my goodness, I see nothing but rocks. This is going to be a bad day. All I could see is my future is going to contain a lot of rocks. I can see them on the horizon, I give up,” which is okay. I want to first really validate you, that is a normal human emotion, a normal human instinct to be like, “I give up, there’s too many rocks.” But our job isn’t to be looking into the future, trying to solve the many rocks that we are going to face. Because as soon as we do that, we lose our skills, we lose our cool, we lose our motivation, we lose our resilience. Just the same as if we looked up the stream where we’ve been and we go, “Oh my gosh, what a terrible day. Look how many rocks I hit today. It was nothing but rocks.” We could get in trouble that way as well. Mindfulness is only paying attention to one rock metaphorically at a time. Staying as present as you can.  HOW TO GET RID OF INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS?  Often people will say to me, “Well, how do I get rid of rocks? Isn’t there a way to get rid of rocks?” I love this. What they’re really asking, just in case you lost the metaphor, is they’re asking, how do I get rid of intrusive thoughts? How do I get rid of them? Here is where I think the metaphor is really clever, because when you think of a stream and you think of the rocks in a stream, like the actual stream—our family spends a lot of time rafting; my husband is an amazing raft, I guess you would say, and my kids love it too—what I always think that’s so interesting is when you’re in rapids or ripples, the rocks actually aren’t jagged anymore. Often when rocks have been hit by water enough times, the jaggedness of them gets washed away and the rocks become actually quite smooth. I think it’s such an amazing metaphor here for the work that we do, which is when we are mindful, when we are non-judgmental, when we are present, when we don’t attach it to what it means about us, the thoughts become less powerful, less painful, less jagged, less sharp, less of an ouch. That’s true in science with actual streams on water and for us in our minds too.  HOW LONG CAN INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS LAST?  Now, it’s not uncommon for people to be curious about how long intrusive thoughts can last. Because often when we have them, before we’ve learned these skills and before we’ve learned mindfulness, we have them. And then because we are so averse to them and we’re so afraid of them and they’re so painful, it can feel like they last for a very, very long time, and that’s true. They can be so repetitive that it feels like you just don’t get a break.  But what I have found to be true, as a clinician who’s watched hundreds of clients practice this, is when you start to apply mindfulness, they can be quite fleeting, these intrusive thoughts. They can pass quite quickly. I want to be really honest with you. What I’m not saying is that they will stop returning. Again, I want to really keep reinforcing because that’s not our goal. Our goal isn’t to say, how can we get rid of them as fast as we can, or how can we get them to not be here. I’m not saying that, but I can vouch for this in that when you do practice treating intrusive thoughts like a rock in a stream, they do tend to be less prolonged. Not always. I want to keep saying not always. There will be days where you’ll have lots and lots, there’ll be days when you won’t. Again, we’re going to practice not attributing value or judgment to that. But I have found this to be very true, that when we are really present and we’re kind and we are non-judgmental, it can actually reduce the suffering so, so much HOW TO LET GO OF OCD INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS and PTSD INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS?  That’s the metaphor I want you to think about here in regards to how to let go of OCD intrusive thoughts. But I would even go as far as saying, this is the same metaphor I would use when talking with patients who have trauma, and they’re wanting to know how to let go of their PTSD intrusive thoughts because some people with PTSD have intrusive thoughts. I would even go as far as saying that, as I’ve said in the beginning, you can use this skill with any adversity.  HOW TO LET GO OF INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS RELATED TO DEPRESSION?  You could use this skill with sadness, you could use this skill with shame, guilt, fear in general. It could be discomfort or some physical sensation of pain that you’re having. We can also let go of these intrusive thoughts related to depression. Noticing a depressive negative thought, seeing it like a rock in the stream, trying to practice non-judgment around that, and moving around it with a sense of kindness and compassion and radical support. That’s what I would love for you to practice.  I’ve had patients in the past say that they changed the computer screen to a stream just to remind them of that. Or they’ve left a little sticky note on the side of their desk saying thoughts are like a rock in a stream or a rock in a river. There are other ways you could imagine this metaphor as well, but this is the one that I really, really resonate with. If you want to get creative, you can maybe come up with some other forms. But I find it to be so incredible how nature can really teach us about how to be mindful and manage really, really hard things.  That’s it, guys. That’s what I wanted to share with you. I hope it was helpful. I know this is not easy, by the way. The whole reason I say it’s a beautiful day to do hard things is because this is not easy. This is like hardcore work and I want you to give yourself a lot of claps and hugs and celebrations and high fives for even trying this sometimes in the day. I really do believe that one rock at a time, even though it mightn’t seem very significant, it accumulates. If you have hit tens or twenties or thirties or hundreds of these rocks, you are on your way. You are doing the work, you are walking the walk, and I really want to celebrate you and honor you for that.  All right, folks. I hope that was helpful. I am sending you so much love. Keep doing the work. I will see you in a week. Well, you’ll hear me in a week. I hope you’re having a wonderful summer if you’re in the northern hemisphere. I hope you’re having a wonderful winter if you’re in the southern hemisphere, and I will talk to you soon.

TALKING BACK TO ANXIETY Welcome back, everybody. Today we’re talking about talking back to anxiety, and we’re really talking about the power of positive self-talk.  Now I know when it comes to this idea of talking back to anxiety, it can get somewhat controversial. In fact, even talking about this idea of positive self-talk can be controversial, and I will be the first to say there is nothing worse than when you’re struggling with something that’s really painful. People say, “Oh, just be positive.” That is not what we’re talking about here today. In fact, I have a personal twist on how I like to consider a positive self-talk. You probably have heard me talk about it before, but I felt like it was time for me to revisit these concepts that I find so incredibly powerful when it comes to talking back to anxiety, or being positive, staying positive, engaging in some form of positive self-talk. WHAT DOES TALKING BACK TO ANXIETY LOOK LIKE?  Let’s talk about it. When we consider what we mean, when we say “talking back to anxiety,” what do I really mean by that? First of all, I want to get to one of the controversies. What I’m not saying is that when you have anxiety, you tell it to go away or stop, because we know that when we do that, when we try and suppress anxiety or we try to suppress our intrusive thoughts, it usually means we have more of them. Let’s just get that scientific fact out in the eye. We know that is true. But when we are talking about talking back to anxiety, when I’m talking about it, what I mean is, when you experience anxiety, whether that be in the form of sensations or in thoughts or feelings or images, how do you respond? How do you converse with your anxiety?  I always make a metaphor with my clients, and I’ve done it here on the podcast before, that I always think of anxiety as this little short Lorax-looking guy that sits on my shoulder. For you, it might look different. But he sits on my shoulder and he’s in a beach chair and he is really lazy and he is wearing sunglasses, and he just wants to mess with me as much as he can, but in the most effective, lazy way. And how does he do that? He does it by knowing exactly what bothers me and throwing that at me first. He’s not going to throw some random thing at me. He’s going to go straight for the thing that he knows I value, because that’s where my anxiety is going to show up the most. And then when he shows up, it’s up to me then to be skilled in how I respond. One of the ways we respond is how we talk back to it. The first thing I’m going to ask you is, when your anxiety tells you of the thing that you value, talks to you about the thing that scares you, that hits you right in the gut, how do you respond? Do you yell at him and say, “Get off my lawn, you horrible thing.” None of this is bad, I just want you to get to know. How do you respond? You say, “No, no, no, please go away. I don’t want you. I’ll do whatever you say. I’ll do whatever compulsion you tell me to do. I’ll avoid whatever you tell me to avoid if you just quiet down.”  Some of this, instead of doing that, instead of yelling at anxiety, we yell at ourselves. We say, “What is wrong with you? Why are you always anxious? You’re a loser. You’re bad. What’s wrong with you? Something is seriously broken about you. Why have you got to have anxiety all the time?” You engage in a ton of self-criticism and self-punishment. The ones I just gave you are some negative self-talk examples like, “What’s wrong with you? You’re a loser. You’re such an idiot for having this anxiety. You’re stupid.” I want to remind you that you’re not. This is not about your intelligence; it’s not about who you are, what you are. Your anxiety has nothing to do with any of that. Some of us are just genetically prone to having more anxiety. But we use this negative self-talk. We use this criticism, this self-judgment to try and beat out the anxiety, as if we could beat it out of ourselves. But the facts are, this negative self-talk doesn’t motivate us to change because we were never in control at the start. We can’t control our anxiety and whether it shows up, so that doesn’t work. What we do know that does work is positive self-talk. It is one of the most successful ways of motivating ourselves.  When anxiety does show up, I want you to explore how you might respond differently to whatever discomfort or whatever form of suffering you’re experiencing. It doesn’t even have to be anxiety. It might be pain, it might be stress, it might be sadness, any emotion. We can actually use these skills with any of these emotions.  WHAT POSITIVE SELF-TALK IS NOT  Let’s talk about what I mean by this. What does positive self-talk look like in my definition, not what you may have seen online. Number one, in my definition, positive self-talk—let’s talk about what it actually isn’t—it’s not just positive affirmations. While that’s great, and if that works for you, by all means, keep it. But for me, it never ever lands. I could say the world is safe and good things will happen, and I’m a good person. I could say that all day long and it would not land. It would do nothing for my anxiety. Literally, it just doesn’t. I’ve tried it and it really doesn’t work for me.  Positive self-talk is also not just telling yourself to be happy or relaxed. That is a huge issue. Because if you’re having anxiety and you’re just telling yourself how you “should feel,” you’re only going to feel judged. You’re only going to feel less in control. You’re only going to feel more hopeless about the situation.  HOW TO BECOME YOUR OWN KIND COACH  We’ve talked about what it’s not, and I’m sure there’s other examples that I’ll probably think of here in a minute, but that’s what it’s not. But what it is, is talking to yourself in a voice that I call the kind coach. For those of you who have read The Self-Compassion Workbook for OCD, I talk about this a lot in that workbook, but I also teach this in the course Overcoming Anxiety and Panic, which is learning how to speak to anxiety in a way that motivates us, that leads us more towards our values and our beliefs, that disarms the anxiety. Instead of fighting it, it tends to the fact that you are experiencing something really, really, really uncomfortable. These are key components of overcoming anxiety and panic. In the course, we also go through cognitive changes, behavioral changes, a lot of tools, a lot of mindfulness, a lot of self-compassion. If you’re really wanting to do a deep dive, you can go and check out that course. Go to CBTSchool.com. The course specifically is called Overcoming Anxiety and Panic. But for today, let’s just talk about being a kind coach.  A kind coach. If you were actually thinking about a coach that you’ve had in the past, or an ideal coach, if you were training for something, a marathon, let’s say, or a competition or something, a kind coach wouldn’t berate you for struggling, because we know, as we’ve already talked about, that beating yourself up and criticizing, it might propel you into some change, but it also creates more anxiety. We are here to try not to make more anxiety just for the sake of making more of it. We know that self-criticism isn’t beneficial. We know that telling someone of their faults and their weaknesses, that only makes us feel worse. It usually sends us into a shame response. When we go into a shame response, the normal human response is to slump over, to get really tired, to feel very unmotivated, to be stuck in this slow-moving body where everything feels heavy. That doesn’t help us. That makes it worse.  The kind coach knows your challenges, but it also knows your strengths, and it uses your strengths to motivate and propel you towards the thing that you want. Let’s say you’re having anxiety. The kind coach would talk back to anxiety by saying, “I see you’re here. It’s cool. It’s okay that you’re here. I was planning on recording this podcast today at 11 o’clock, and I know you want to tell me about all the terrible things that might happen today, but I agreed that I was going to do this, and it’s really important to me that I do. You could come along, and I’m going to let you be there while I record this podcast.”  Now, you might hear that none of this is me saying, “I’m going to record this podcast and I’m going to be happy and I’m not going to have any problems with it, and I’m going to finish it. I’m going to feel ecstatic and free and overjoyed.” That’s not what I’m talking about. That’s one example of positive self-talk, but that’s not what I am talking about today, and that’s not what I’m encouraging you to do. I’m encouraging you to learn to be the kind coach for yourself. Meaning you are the one who shows up for you when anxiety shows up. Often when we’re anxious, we step out of that role and we actually go to someone else to try and make us feel better. We go to someone else to reassure us. We go to someone else to soothe us. While there’s nothing wrong with that, we miss an opportunity to be there for ourselves, to be the one who soothes us, to be the one who says, “Hey, I see that you’re going through something hard. I see that this is uncomfortable for you.” TALKING BACK TO ANXIETY: POSITIVE SELF-TALK EXAMPLES  Now, to get a little deeper here, if we were really going to talk about positive self-talk examples, we would also include the kind coach reminding us that we can do hard things. When I think of positive self-talk, I don’t think of, “You’re the best, you’re great. Everyone loves you. You’re perfect.” I think of positive self-talk as being it believes in us, it believes in our ability to really settle into hard, uncomfortable things.  In the world of social media, and a lot of you guys know I’m on Instagram a lot, I constantly see people saying, “The five quick tips for anxiety,” or “Heal your panic attack fast.” They’re selling you on quick fixes and making it easy. I don’t believe that that’s helpful. I think positive self-talk for anxiety shouldn’t be about saying it’s easy and quick to get over. It should be about saying, “You can do this. You can tolerate this. You can ride this wave of discomfort out. I believe you can because you’ve done it before,” or “I believe you can because humans are incredibly resilient. Even if you haven’t done it before, it’s a skill we will learn together.” That’s how a kind coach talks.  Let’s say you’ve always avoided something and it creates so much anxiety for you. Basically, your brain is saying, “I’ll never be able to do that one thing.” My kind coach, if I really listened, would say, “I know you haven’t been able to do it in the past, but I have seen you in so many other areas overcome different things that you’ve never done, but then you were able to do it with practice and repetition and kindness and support. I do believe this is another opportunity for you to do that.” That’s what my kind coach would say, and this is something you can start to practice for yourself.  If this is really hard for you, another way of doing it is saying, “What would a loved one say to me in this example?” And then you just practice saying it to yourself. But this is a grand gesture of self-compassion. It’s a grand gesture of encouragement, motivation, positivity that isn’t toxic, because we know that positivity can sometimes be so toxic and dismiss what we’re going through. This is not that. Now, when we talk about talking back to anxiety, we may also have to practice this idea of talking back to depression too. What I’m going to encourage you to do here is use exactly the same tools.  TALKING BACK TO DEPRESSION Let’s talk about it. If you have depression, your brain is telling you these lies like, “You’re terrible. Nothing good is going to happen. There’s no point. You’re useless.” Talking back with positivity like you are the best, again, is not going to land. Saying, “You’re wonderful, you’re really great. Great things are going to happen,” some people find that really beneficial. If that’s you, by all means, keep using it. It’s incredibly powerful. But for a lot of us folks, that won’t land. I find it really much more beneficial to talk back to anxiety and depression with this kind coach voice, someone who coaches us through the depression while it’s there, because it’s going to be there. It is here. There’s no point in telling ourselves just to be happy because it is here. I find it to be so incredibly helpful.  TALKING BACK TO OCD Now, in addition, there is also some controversy around talking back to OCD. A lot of people say, “Doesn’t that become compulsive? Doesn’t that get in the way of the actual foundation of ERP?” Well, what I will say is, once again, it depends on how you’re doing it. If you’re talking back to OCD, which we know is a disorder of uncertainty and doubt, if you’re talking back by going bad things won’t happen, “No, you’re fine. Nothing bad is going to happen,” well then yes, you will be engaging in compulsive self-reassurance or reassurance in general.  But what I’m talking about here when it comes to talking back to anxiety, specifically related to OCD, is the kind coach will say, “I believe you can handle hard things. Just a few more minutes, let’s ride this wave of discomfort out. Can you tolerate another 10 minutes of uncertainty?” Instead of saying it as a question, it might say, “Let’s do it. Let’s try for another two minutes not engaging in that compulsion.” You’re talking to anxiety, you’re talking to depression, you’re talking to OCD, but you’re not doing it in a way that dismisses how hard it is. You’re not doing it in a way that overlooks the actual reality. Meaning you’re not saying, “Just be happy,” or “Just ignore it,” or “Just think about something else.” You’re not doing it in a way that creates compulsive behaviors that keep you stuck.  The kind coach encourages you to keep trying. It validates that you’ve had a hard time and that this is hard. It reminds you of your strengths, whatever that is. Maybe it tells you you’re resilient or you’ve done it before. It might gently remind you to use your humor if humor is something that you’re really good at doing. It might remind you of any strength you have. It won’t use your challenges against you. It’s radically, absolutely, unconditionally there for you, even on the low days. It encourages you to just go a little further, try a little bit more, but not in our “get down and give me 20 pushups” way like our mean coach would. It’s saying it in a way that feels doable and motivating and kind.  That’s what I want you to practice. This, guys, is a skill that you have to practice. Meaning you won’t do it for a couple of hours and then feel on top of the world. Again, this is not about ridding you of your reality of true discomfort. It’s something we practice every day during the easy times and the hard times. This is how we talk back to anxiety. This is the power of positive self-talk when used correctly.  That’s it. That’s what I want you to practice. What I would do with me, because I’m a little bit of a track it kind of girl, is I would encourage you to track it. To track when you were engaging in the kind coach, what did the kind coach say? I would also track when other people act as the kind coach, maybe a loved one, a family member or a boss, a colleague, a friend—really track what it is that they said to you that helped you propel yourself towards behaviors that are positive in your life and use those to help you really strengthen your own kind coach voice. You may also want to track when you get caught up in self-criticism. Because that too, sometimes when you’re tracking it, it helps us be more aware of it. When we’re more aware, we can catch it sooner and intervene sooner.  That’s what I would encourage you to do. If you don’t like tracking, that’s fine. I don’t want to push you in a direction that doesn’t work for you. As you always know, I just want you to take what’s helpful here and leave what’s not. But this is a skill I really hope that you do engage in and start to practice.  If you’re interested in any of the courses I’ve mentioned today, please go to CBTSchool.com. You can also go to my private practice website, which is KimberleyQuinlan-LMFT.com. I am a therapist with nine therapists who work for me, helping people with OCD and anxiety. We are in Calabasas. I would love to connect further with you there.  Have a wonderful day, everybody, and remind yourself that it is a beautiful day to do hard things.  

Welcome back, everybody. Today we’re talking about sleep anxiety relief. We’re talking about how to get a good night’s rest. Oh, the beauty of a good night’s sleep. I can’t even tell you and I can’t even explain for me personally how much sleep impacts my mental health and my mental health impacts my sleep. Hence why we’re doing this episode today.  For those of you who are new, my name is Kimberley Quinlan. I’m a marriage and family therapist in the State of California. I have a private practice. I am the developer of an online program called CBTSchool.com. I’m an author and I am the host of this podcast.  A few weeks ago, a psychiatrist reached out and said, “I have been listening to you for years, not realizing that I work literally down the street from you.” It made me realize that I never introduced myself on the podcast. I just talk and talk and talk and I actually don’t tell people where I am and what I do and what I offer. So that was a really big lesson.  Let’s talk about sleep anxiety relief. I’m going to tell you a bit of a story first. For years, my daughter has been telling us that she can’t sleep, that she has terrible sleep. She lays awake, staring at the roof. She said she always feels tired during the day and that she “can’t get to sleep” when she tries. We have taken her to the pediatrician and we’ve talked to her about it and checked in, “Are you worrying about anything in particular?” She says, “No, I just worry about getting enough sleep.” Again, she’s saying, “When will I go back to sleep? Will I go back to sleep? Will I wake up at night?” She says she struggles to get comfortable as she settles into bed.  We took the plunge and took her to a sleep specialist and we were expecting either a sleep disorder diagnosis or a sleep anxiety diagnosis. He did this thorough assessment and asked her all these questions and he was incredible. At the end, he said, “I’m going to tell you, it sounds like you’re getting good sleep. You sound like you sleep very normally for a kid your age and we address some issues that may be happening.” But he said, “A lot of this is about managing anxiety about sleep,” because he tracked like, “You’re getting enough. We will track it during the night. Everything looked good. This is actually about you managing your mind around sleep.” Now I understand that may not be your experience, but this blew me off my feet. I was expecting serious bad news. I have this conversation with my patients so often and it made me feel like, let’s talk about sleep anxiety relief.  SLEEP ANXIETY SYMPTOMS  Now, before we talk about sleep anxiety relief, let’s talk about sleep anxiety symptoms because some people who don’t experience this or aren’t sure if they’re experiencing this, I wanted to make sure you feel like you’re in the right place. For those who have sleep anxiety, they experience a lot of anxiety around going to bed or when going to bed. They may report racing thoughts in bed, inability to concentrate when they’re preparing to go to sleep or they’re laying in bed. They might experience a lot of irritability, whether that’s emotional or physical sensations in the body. A lot of jitteriness. There may be also an experience of nervousness or restlessness. They may have feelings of being overwhelmed. Some people report this impending danger or doom as they approach the bed or as they approach bedtime. They may experience a lot of anticipatory anxiety about it.  There are also some physical sensations or effects of anxiety before bed and that might include some tummy troubles. Kids in particular will report before bed, “My tummy hurts,” and often their tummy hurts is a sign of anxiety. This is true for adults too. They may have an increase in heart rate, which may make them feel like something bad is about to happen. They may have rapid breathing. They may experience sweating. They may experience tense muscles. They may experience trembling, even nausea. These are symptoms that could be your regular day-to-day anxiety, or it could be that you’re specifically managing anxiety related to sleep.  IS THERE A CURE FOR SLEEP ANXIETY?  When talking about sleep anxiety relief, often people talk about this idea of a sleep anxiety cure. Now, I’m not going to give you any specific “cure” today because I don’t know your exact case and you would need to be assessed by a doctor. I encourage you to go and see your doctor if you’re struggling with sleep because it is so important. If you need, go and get a referral for a sleep specialist or do some research. There are some amazing books on sleep as well.  Now, do I consider that we can overcome sleep anxiety? Yes, 100%. I do believe you can get to a place where you have healthy sleep. Again, I’m always very cautious about talking about the word “cure,” but if we were to really address sleep anxiety relief in terms of what you need to practice, I’m going to first always do a ton of psychoeducation with my patients and with you today about sleep hygiene.  WHAT IS SLEEP HYGIENE?  Think of sleep hygiene as like, how clean your bedtime routine is. Clean, meaning has it got a lot of stuff that dirty up your sleep routine, or does it free up and clean up your sleep hygiene, sleep routine? I’m not talking here in terms of contamination. I don’t want to get that confused. It’s about making your bedtime routine something that is with ease, and even if there’s anxiety, it’s a routine that you follow and you are pretty consistent with it so that you can start to get better sleep.  Now, how do we do that? First of all, I strongly recommend you first decide when you want to be asleep by or when you want to be in bed preparing to wind down. Pick an actual time. A lot of people miss this step. They just go, “Oh, I’m going to light candles and I’m going to read and hopefully, I’ll fall asleep when I want to.” That’s fine and that’s good. We will talk about that here in a second. But I’m going to strongly encourage you, pick a time you want to be in bed. And then from there, we work backwards. From one hour minimum, from the time you want to be in bed starting to wind down, you must turn off your tech. I know you want to turn off your podcast right now because you don’t want to turn off your tech that early, but I’m going to stress to you that your phone and your device are causing havoc on your bedtime routine unless you are using it for meditation, soothing music, something that actually deeply calms you. But I’m going to say a minimum of one hour, preferably two, you turn off your tech before that time that you picked. Let’s say you picked 10 PM. That’s the time I pick. All phones, technology should be off by 9:00 PM, even 8:30 or 8:00 is better.  What you do during that hour is that’s when you start to do the wind-down routine or program. Now this doesn’t have to be compulsive, it doesn’t have to be exact to the minute, but what we’re talking about here is now starting to implement things that bring you to a place of comfort. I understand if you’re having a lot of anxiety, you might still feel it in every single part of the sleep routine. That’s okay, but you’re engaging in behaviors that don’t make your anxiety worse. You might be reading. However, if reading is something that makes you hyper-aroused in an anxiety way, maybe it’s not reading. Maybe it’s meditation, maybe it’s listening to an audiobook, not something that’s going to, again, rev you up and get you going. Something boring, something simple, something a little more monotone. It could be listening to sounds. There are so many free YouTube videos with just sounds of the waterfall or rain or birds or waves. If you have a specific sound that you like, I’m sure you can find it. These are all great options.  You may also want to engage in a wind-down routine. This is my personal routine, you don’t have to follow it, but without too much being pedantic, I have a routine. I go downstairs. I brush my teeth. I floss my teeth. I wash my face. I then go plug in my devices. I go to bed. I get my Kindle out. I actually am fine with the Kindle as long as you’re not reading something too overwhelming because the lighting is different on a Kindle compared to an iPad that shoots light right into your eyes. I might take a glass of water. I make my bed actually before I go to bed. Meaning it’s pretty messy usually, so it’s something I like to feel like the covers are all neat on me. I then allow a wind-down. That’s just me. My husband doesn’t do any of that. He just brushes his teeth, goes to bed, and starts reading. Not that different, but for me, I have more steps. You can do whatever you think is helpful, but sleep hygiene has to be a piece and you have to work backwards by removing the technology.  Some people say, “What about if I use my phone for my alarm?” That’s fine, I do too. However, if it’s in your room or it’s next to you, that’s fine as long as you can practice some restraint of not picking it up and going on social media because you can lose hours by just picking up your phone and opening up the Instagram app. You can lose hours.  One thing I’m going to encourage you to do here is consider we have a course called Time Management for Optimum Mental Health and we talk all about scheduling. I’ll give you a little bit of information that I share during the Time Management course. I personally calendar a lot of my life and I have found that that has been very beneficial for my sleep. The reason being is because I have to wake up at 6:15 to get my kids to school. I used to get to bed whenever I could and then I realized I was massively sleep deprived. When I looked at the calendar and I thought, okay, if I have to be up at 6:15 and if I need a certain amount of sleep (I do better on eight hours), I have to be in bed asleep by 10:15. What am I doing? Going to bed at 10:30, I’m already setting myself up for failure.  When you’re scheduling, you actually look at your wake-up time and you even plan backwards for that on when you need to be in bed. And then you plan backwards from that on when you need to work on your sleep wind-down program. Again, you don’t have to be pedantic, you don’t have to be too hyper-controlled on this. But doing it a couple of times is life-changing in realizing, at the way I’m going, I’m never going to get enough sleep. SLEEP ANXIETY REMEDIES Now, in terms of talking about sleep anxiety help or sleep anxiety relief, there are some additional sleep anxiety remedies you may say that may help you. Let me add here, there’s not a ton of research. I try to only bring research-based stuff to you. But a lot of people say things like oils or candles or deep breathing. I mean, we have research on deep breathing. It can be very beneficial. But you can bring in anything that soothes you, certain sense people love. I have a sister and family members who love those satin pillows. That really helps them. Just get a feeling for textures and sensations that also help you to wind down in the evening.  SLEEP ANXIETY TREATMENT Now, if you’re doing these things and you’re still really struggling with sleep anxiety and getting to sleep and insomnia, I would encourage you to look into some kind of sleep anxiety treatment. We do have science-based treatments to manage sleep anxiety or even chronic insomnia. One of those things is mindfulness training. In mindfulness training, what we are doing here is we’re training you to be able to get a hold of your attention. Because as you know, anxiety, if you really let anxiety lead the way, it’s going to ping-pong you to all the worst-case scenarios. It’s like what I said about my daughter. Will I fall asleep? Will I wake up? How long will it take? What if I don’t?  A lot of people also report anxiety around, “I don’t like the feeling of falling asleep. I feel like I’m losing control or feel going to sleep is scary. I don’t know what’s going to happen.” If you’re someone who’s very hypervigilant, being asleep can actually be very triggering for you.  Mindfulness trains us to stay present and not engage in all of that drama that our brain creates around all the possible worst-case scenarios. It also allows us to practice non-judgment about the anxiety and about the sensations that we’re experiencing, so we can just be present with them and practice. When I say practice, I mean over and over and over again because this is not easy. Practice being willing to be uncomfortable but keep our mind attending to the present instead of the worst-case scenarios.  Another piece of this when we’re talking about sleep anxiety treatment is general stress management. Now, if you have an anxiety disorder during the day that also starts to leak into the evenings, particularly if you’re someone who has more anxiety in the evenings, you will need to use a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy to manage that anxiety. Or if you have a lot of stress in your life, maybe your work or your school or your relationships are very stressful in this season, CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) can be helpful in first looking at your cognition—that’s the cognitive part of CBT—and then also looking at your behaviors. Now, the cool thing is a lot of the behavior stuff, you and I have already talked about in that sleep hygiene piece. We know that the behavior of being on your phone is not helpful. In addition with sleep hygiene, getting a lot of exercise less than two hours before bed isn’t really great for sleep either because your body’s metabolism is all sped up from that. Those are some behavior changes. Not watching scary movies or very activating movies or books—reading those books is very important behavior changes, or having difficult conversations.  For me, I have had to learn that if I work after about 7:00 PM, I can’t fall asleep. I need about three to four hours to wind down from work before I can fall asleep. Now that’s not always possible and I understand there’s a lot of privilege that goes with these ideas sometimes, but you just can do the best that you can, and if you can change things, go ahead and try. But those are some behavioral changes you can additionally do.  Now, if you are somebody who struggles with severe insomnia, in addition to sleep anxiety, because sometimes sleep anxiety goes alongside actual insomnia where biologically you don’t sleep much or you can’t sleep much, there is a specific type of cognitive behavioral therapy that is being scientifically proven to help called CBT-I. That is a specific form of CBT that is directed towards managing sleep anxiety and insomnia. It is really cool, it’s very effective. It’s very hard to get treatment, but if you do some Google searches, you might be able to find a CBT-I specialist in your area. GIVE ME SOME MORE SLEEP ANXIETY TIPS.. In general now, because I’m trying to move us through this and not give you a full-on lecture, let’s just talk about some general sleep anxiety tips. As you’re approaching bed, the first skill I want you to practice is not tending to the noise that your brain creates about how bad this is going to go. For me, my mindfulness mantra is “not happening now.” I’ve done a whole episode on that in the past, not happening now. Meaning I’m not tending to something that has not yet happened. Until it happens, it does me no benefit by trying to focus on it right now. My brain is going to keep saying, “But what if you don’t? What if it’s bad? What if you’re really tired tomorrow? How is it going to go? What if you wake up? What if you have a panic attack at night and so forth?” I’m just going to say over and over, “You know what, it’s not happening now. I’m tending to what is happening.” Another sleep anxiety tip I really want you to practice is compassion. Be really gentle with yourself, particularly as you start to practice these behavioral changes, and clean up your sleep hygiene. It takes time. The other thing with compassion is also be kind to yourself when you’re tired because a lot of us are exhausted. You have an anxiety disorder. Maybe it’s making it even harder for you to fall asleep. Then you’re tired, so now you’ve got two problems. Be as gentle and kind as you can. Again, when it comes to self-compassion, check in with yourself. Am I doing and engaging in behaviors that are kind towards me and my long-term goal? I’ll tell you what I used to do. When I had young toddlers, by two o’clock I’d be exhausted because I hadn’t gotten enough sleep, so I’d have a coffee or a tea. But the tea and the coffee then prolonged how much I could get to bed, and it was made later and later. Again, reducing coffee, tea, some energy drinks is another important piece of sleep hygiene and behavioral changes that will benefit you if you struggle with sleep anxiety or insomnia.  We have mindfulness, we have compassion. These are really important sleep anxiety tools or tips. Another piece here is, as I’ve said before, engage in things that soothe you. If you’re doing exposures, if you’re doing ERP, try not to do them before bed unless you’ve been instructed by your therapist. Sometimes that’s not helpful. Now, that being said, if you have really severe anxiety around sleep, you may need to do exposures around bedtime as the exposure. That is an actual part of CBT-I. Sometimes they even have you set alarms to wake up at 2:14 in the morning and 4:45 in the morning so that you have to practice these skills over and over. That is okay and that is, again, where this can be very paradoxical, but that will be up to you to decide what’s best for you.  WHAT ABOUT SLEEP ANXIETY MEDICATION?  Another thing to remember is that there is sleep anxiety medicine. You can talk with your doctor about medicines that can help with sleep, help staying asleep, help you regulate what time. Some people take medication a few half an hour before they go to bed so that it helps ease them into sleep. Please do speak with a psychiatrist or a medical doctor about that because I’m not a doctor, so I’m not going to be giving you medical advice about that.  Now, before I wrap up, there’s a couple of specific groups of people I also don’t want to miss here. First, I want to address sleep anxiety in association with depression. Sometimes a symptom of depression is insomnia. If that is the case, you could use some of these skills and I encourage you to, but we don’t want to miss the fact that if depression is what’s causing your insomnia or your sleep anxiety, please seek out a CBT therapist because it’s very important that you address that depression. One of the side effects of having depression can be sleepless nights, so I don’t want to miss that.  Another thing is, a lot of folks with OCD experience obsessions about sleep. Again, as I was mentioning before, it may mean that you do have to do some exposure around sleep and that would be advised to you because the best treatment for OCD is exposure and response prevention. We actually wrote an entire article about this on the website. If you want to go to KimberleyQuinlan-LMFT.com and then type in OCD and insomnia, it will be there. We did a whole article on that just a couple of weeks ago.  >>>OCD AND INSOMNIA ARTICLE IS HERE That’s it, guys. That’s what I want you to be really looking at. Please remember, and this is the most important part, the biggest message that our sleep specialist gave my daughter was stop putting so much pressure on yourself to fall asleep because the pressure creates anxiety and the anxiety stops you from sleeping. The best sleep anxiety tip I can give you at the outset of this podcast episode is try to take the pressure off. The truth is, even if you’re not sleeping as long as you’re resting, that is enough. You can’t force yourself to fall asleep. It usually creates more frustration, more anxiety. It just creates a lot of irritability.  Try to take the pressure off. Give yourself many weeks to get this down. It may take tweaks, it may take some reworking. You may require some help from people and assistance from a medical doctor if you need to. You can also reach out to a sleep anxiety specialist or an insomnia specialist who specialize in sleep deprivation anxiety or sleep deprivation in general. If you need sleep anxiety treatment, there are specific treatments out there for sleep anxiety in adults, children, and teens.  If you’re wanting to come and work with us again, you can go to our website and we have some amazing therapists who can also help. My hope is, soon I will be bringing out some sleep anxiety-guided meditations for you as well. That’s coming down the pipeline here very soon.  Please take the pressure off. Please be gentle. Just tweak little things. Again, as we always say, it’s a beautiful day to do hard, repetitive things where we practice and we practice.  I hope that’s been helpful. I hope you do go on to have a good night’s rest here very soon. I will see you next week.

Welcome back, everybody. Today we are talking about Acceptance Scripts with Dr Jon Grayson.  So happy to be here with you as we tie together our series on imaginals and scripts. Today, we have the amazing Dr. Jon Grayson and he is going to talk about acceptance scripts and the real importance of making sure we use acceptance when we’re talking about scripts and imaginals. I’m so excited to share this episode with you. I think it really does, again, tie together the two other guests that we’ve had on the show in this series.  For those of you who are listening to this and haven’t listened to the other two episodes of the series, go back two weeks. We’ve got the first one with Krista Reed and she’s talking about scripts and the way she uses them. Then we have Shala Nicely and she talks about her own specific way of using scripts. Again, the reason that I didn’t just have one person and leave it at that is I do think for each person, we have to find specific ways in which we do these skills and tools so we can make it specific to your obsessions and your intrusive thoughts. One explanation or one version or variety of this is probably not enough. I want to really deep dive in this series so that you feel, number one, you have a good understanding of what an imaginal and a script is. Number two, you know how to use them, you know the little nuanced pieces of information that you need to help make sure OCD and your OCD-related disorder doesn’t make it a compulsion because it can. I really wanted to get some groundwork so that you feel confident using imaginal and scripts in your own treatment and your own recovery. Again, for those of you who are a little lost and feel like you need a better understanding of OCD, of how OCD works, how it keeps you stuck, the cycle of OCD and you want to make your own individual OCD and ERP plan, you can go to CBTSchool.com. We have a full seven-hour course that will walk you through exactly how I do it with my patients, and you can do that at your own pace. It’s an on-demand course. It is not therapy, but it will help you if you don’t have access to therapy or if you’re really just wanting to understand and do a deep dive and understand what ERP is and how you can use it. That is there for you. But if you are someone who is just wanting to get to the good stuff, let’s go over to the episode with Dr. Jon Grayson. Thank you, Dr. Jon Grayson, for coming on the show again. Always a pleasure to have such amazing people who really know their stuff. I’ll enjoy this episode with you. Let’s go. Kimberley: Welcome, Dr. Jon Grayson. I’m so happy to have you back. Jon: It is always fun to be with you. Kimberley: Okay. It’s funny that you are number three, because I probably need you to be number one. Almost all of the scripting I ever learned was from your book. I think that even Shala Nicely came on and spoke about how a lot of what she does is through your book as well. Let’s just talk about the way in which you walk people through an imaginal or a script. Now do you call it imaginal or script? Do you think they’re synonymous? Do you have a different way of explaining it? Jon: I think jargon-wise, they’re synonymous. I think by definition-- I feel weird saying that by definition because we made it up. I came up with the name “script” because originally, imaginal exposure suggested I’m just dealing with all the horrors and person’s just going to think about it. I changed the name to “script” because I was including both. What are you being exposed to? What might happen and why would you take this risk? Because I feel like the script is not only to get used to the material, but we remind the person, why am I doing this? What am I getting out of taking this horrible risk? Why would I want to live with that?  WHAT IS AN ACCEPTANCE SCRIPTS/IMAGINALS?  Integral to the Acceptance Script is the whole idea of learning acceptance. Because too often, I think the biggest problem I see in most therapists is they just jump into doing exposure without making sure the person has done level 1 acceptance, which is “I want to live with uncertainty,” because to say “I want to live with uncertainty” is to say, “I am willing to cope if the worst things happen.” It’s not just this general idea, it’s like going to the extreme. “I’m willing to live, even if this happens. I’m willing to drive a car knowing that I might get paralyzed and disfigured in a car crash.” I think that’s acceptance because if you’re telling me you’re never going to crash in a car and you know that’s true, I guess that’s a nice comforting thought that you might be in for a shock. We’re willing to take that risk. I think across the board, it’s always willing to live with the worst possible.  Scripts try to encapsulate that. They’re trying to help bring the person not only to confront their fear but remind them of all the ways they want to cope with it. It is not a reassurance thing because let’s face it, the worst thing happening, saying “I’ll cope with the worst” is not really reassuring in a sense because it’s something you really don’t want to happen. But I guess the goal is, first of all, if it happens, you will do something that’s coping or not.  I think non-acceptance-- God bless you. I’m glad we’re live so people can see you were sneezing. I just didn’t go into a religious ecstasy. I think we see non-acceptance insidiously all over the place without realizing it. In the beginning of the pandemic, so many people were going like, “Well, this can’t last all summer. I can’t deal with that.” That is a statement of avoidance and non-acceptance. I was listening to that and in the back of my mind, it’s like, “Let’s see. Everything they’ve told us makes it seem like this is going on for two years because they’re not finding a vaccine.” Seriously, you can’t take it. You’re not going to do it. What are you going to do? In retrospect, everybody would have to admit, “Well, yeah, it was not fun, it was awful, but I lived through it.” Acceptance would’ve been, “Well, how am I going to try to make the best of this?” Making the best of it isn’t wonderful, which I guess brings us to the first point about acceptance because I think in the Western world, we make everything glossy and pretty and beautiful. Acceptance is just this wonderful land of zen happiness. It’s like I’m accepting everything is so good and, in reality, the best way to describe acceptance is that it sucks in the short run. In the short run, acceptance means “I’m going to be willing to embrace what seems to me the second-best life. This is what I want, I can have it, I will embrace this.”  WHY DO WE NEED TO PRACTICE ACCEPTANCE?  The prime reason to do acceptance is you don’t have a choice. The other world doesn’t exist. In the beginning of the pandemic, Kathy and I were doing our pandemic walk, my wife Kathy. We were doing our pandemic walk. I remember because you’re terrified of everybody and you’re walking looking around. Kathy says to me, “God, this would be such a great day if all this wasn’t happening.” I said to her, “You’re wrong, Kathy,” which for all the listeners should immediately cue them into the idea that being married to a psychologist is not necessarily fun. I said to her, “It is a beautiful day. We’re with each other. Here we are. We’re holding hands, taking a walk. It’s really pretty. We’re going to be spending the whole day together.” The truth is, it is a great day AND it’s horrible that all of this is happening. I think acceptance is always AND. We always talk about letting stuff be there as if it’s very passively like, “Oh, I can just let it be there and not bother me.” No, it’s really horrible. Let me tell this really horrible story, which I can’t remember if I’ve told on here, but it’s a more graphic description of what acceptance looks like, if I may. A young girl was brought to me, 17, was really in terrible shape. I mean, she had been hospitalized, she had suicide attempts. So anxious, she couldn’t tolerate being in a counsel’s office for more than one hour when she first came in. Her meds were a mess. Over the next three months, we got her meds in line and she really worked incredibly hard considering where she was. And then in December, they asked, could she be in my support group? I said, “Well, it’s not really for kids.” They talked me into things, “We think she’s mature.” First of all, whenever she spoke up in the group, whatever she said would be brilliantly insightful that would just knock everybody out. She did not look old, but nobody could believe she was only 17.  As the year went on, we were tapering off sessions. The last time I saw her in June, her parents, her and her brother were driving out to the desert outside of LA looking for a vacation getaway place. On their way there, a drunk driver in her third DUI rammed the car and killed my patient Ruby and her 14-year-old brother. I don’t have to tell you how devastated the parents were. I could talk a lot of stories that are amazing about them because I saw them starting about three weeks after their loss. At which point they said, “We want to be more than the parents of dead kids, but we can’t imagine anything else.” I said, “Well, I can tell you what treatment will be like, but it just seems like words.” They agreed it’ll be just words, but it’s just nice to hear there’s something. They coped amazingly well. But the only good thing about coping, in this case, is it’s better than not coping. Maybe that’s true a lot of the time. After a year and a half, they did buy the place where they were going to that they were looking for that day. They bought it because it made them feel closer to the kids. They didn’t push that away at all. After a year and a half, they were at the place. It was one night where there was a meteor shower. They go, “Oh, we’re going to go out and watch the meteor shower.” They go out at midnight, lay down on their backs and both immediately burst into tears because this 17-year-old, 14-year-old were actually the kind of kids they would’ve happily gone out there with their parents and enjoyed the whole time. I said to the dad, “Was it a pretty meteor shower?” He said, “Yeah.”  “Are you sorry you saw it?” “No.” I said the truth, “It was a beautiful meteor shower AND it’s horrible that your kids were murdered.” It’s a dark sense of humor and said, “Well, I thought we’d have at least a few moments. I said, “Yeah, that wasn’t happening.” That’s acceptance. They were living in the present. They could enjoy things and there was a hole in their heart. The alternative to that is comparing life to every second of life to how much better it would be. Whenever I compare life to a fantasy, I ruin the present. I have nothing.  I think the reason for acceptance is to make the best of whatever we can have. I think one of the wonderful things sometimes is that a lot of what we avoid is not something so devastating. It’s maybe more in our head what we’re trying to avoid. But a low probability event is not a no probability event. If that’s what I’m scared of, low odds are comforting because I want no odds. Am I answering your question? Kimberley: You are. I think it’s a really great opportunity for us to segue. You’ve talked about the first step being to familiarize yourself with uncertainty before doing scripts and acceptance. You’ve beautifully explained this idea. For the listeners, you can also go back. Dr. Grayson has been on the show before. You can listen to it. We’ve talked a lot about that, which is so beautiful and I think very much compliments what you’re saying. Let’s talk about the script that you’re speaking of. Once you’ve done that work of acceptance, how would you-- Jon: I may have to call you Ms. Quinlan since you referred to me as Dr. Grayson.  Kimberley: No, call me Kimberley.  HOW CAN WE ACCEPT UNCERTAINTY USING SCRIPTS/IMAGINALS?  Credit: https://www.instagram.com/p/CmZUliJKhQB/ Jon: When considering how to accept uncertainty, that first step, are you willing to learn to live with uncertainty? That step is variable of talking in therapy for the first session. I’ve had some people take three months before they agree like, it’s not like I really have a choice, and that’s really what we’re getting. What are you losing to that? I can’t remember if I just said this before, but one of the biggest things that I end up teaching therapists who have been around the field for years is do not start exposure until the person has actually agreed that they’re willing to learn to do this because obviously, they can just accept uncertainty. Then we’re done with session 1. It takes one session to three months. The loose measure is to accept uncertainty to say if the worst happens, I will try to live with it and I will try to cope with it. If somebody says to me, “If that happens, I’ll kill myself.” No, no. That’s an avoidance. In this scenario, you are condemned to life. You’re going to have to figure out how to cope no matter how awful.  In scripting, the idea of a script is not only to provide the imaginal exposure, which is like this terrible thing might happen. Because a lot of times, people go, if you say X might happen, “I don’t want to think about it.” As I said to you in the beginning of the show, I can get any parent into an immediate statement of denial by saying, “What if your kids die,” the response of almost every parent is, “I don’t want to deal with that. I don’t want to think it through.” But if you’re being tortured by the thought, that normal level of denial, which I don’t think is the ideal way to handle it, but you already can’t do it because you keep going into, “What about no, what about no, what about, no?”  How to write an Acceptance Script The very first step of how to write an  acceptance script is essentially asking the question, “why would I take this risk?” Because within that statement is part of your answer of why I’m going to pursue acceptance. It is not the same as acceptance, but it’s why I’m being motivated to go after this.  Kimberley: What would that look like? How would you word that? Jon: As to why would I take this risk?  Kimberley: Uh-hmm. Jon: I’m trying to think of how horrible to go.  Kimberley: Let’s pick an example because I think examples are helpful. Let’s say someone has relationship OCD and they’re afraid they’re making the wrong choice in their partner. Jon: You picked one, I think, that’s not necessarily the most horribly devastating consequences on one hand compared to like, am I an old child molester?  Kimberley: You go there. Jon: I have a really wonderful acceptance thing I do with that, so we will go there. But with the ROCD, I want to know, am I making this terrible mistake with my spouse? What we’re asking them to accept is never knowing. Kimberley: You’d just say that in the script?  Jon: No, because we’ll talk to them and we’ll talk about why like, why am I willing to never know for sure? Because some of it is like they’re looking into a relationship with the thermometer and taking the measure every minute. What’s the temperature now? What’s the temperature now? There’s this fantasy that I should have no questions. I mean, depending on how deep they’re in, I should find no one else attractive, but every moment should be great and I should have no complaints. Well, that is a fantasy marriage.  Kathy and I took a trip to France and it was an incredible trip. Of course, when you say going to Paris, everybody’s eyes glaze over. We ate at a patisserie every morning, but let’s face it, it’s just a damn croissant. One place had the best café au lait. We were there for two days, but it was great. We saw the Catacombs where we had to wait in line for three hours in the hot sun. Went to a really fine restaurant, but we’re not super foodies, so we’re not necessarily going to like it. The experience can’t just depend on, “This was great food,” or “This is terrible, we just spent a lot of money for what.” We go in knowing that. It was a great vacation. A great vacation. It’s not like every second is great. Three hours in a hot sun, five-hour bus ride to go see the site, but it was still a great vacation. I think a relationship is like that, so I can’t look at that now.  I think for the person with ROCD, we’re going to say they are not perfect. Like any relationship, we want a hundred things and we’re only getting 70 of them. It should be more than 20, but we’re only getting 70. Are you making a mistake? Now, most people with ROCD can say they don’t want to leave right now or sometimes they want to leave because of the anxiety. It’s like, then you have to stay. I don’t want you talking about all your fears and confessing because if you are wrong, you’re just making this person feel bad for no reason.  My thought is, you can leave this relationship when you know for two weeks solid you want to leave with no question. No question. You know it is, sure, as you know you’re sitting there because they generally accept that. We have to point out what are the realities of a relationship. Everyone on their wedding day thinks they’re going to be married forever, but that’s wrong 50% of the time. Whomever we marry, my spouse being an exception, 40 years later, they don’t look as good as you did the day you married them. Technically, you were accepting second best in looks 40 years later. Kimberley: Did you know the rate of divorce is higher in therapists? Jon: Wow. So, Kathy and I are really against the odds. This is a little scary to you probably. We started dating in 1970 and this year, it’ll be our 50th anniversary.  Kimberley: Wow. Congratulations. Jon: Having met at the age of two and started dating then, we don’t really have much significant history before that. You will get angry and there are going to be things they don’t want to do. Yes, you’re going to have to learn to live not knowing that. That’s going to be part of the script, that you don’t get to know. What if you’re making a mistake? Even if you fell wildly happily in love now and you had no question, really nice feeling. If the relationship seems good, no reason to question it. Now of course, if you have ROCD, you’re checking all these reasons. It’s like you’re not ready to leave yet. Yes, when you’re answering your questions, it’s maybe. Even if I feel wonderfully in love with you, it might be that next year or after 20 years ago, I discover you’ve been having a seven-year illicit affair. I discover, “Oh hey, guess what? You’re leaving me.” There are all kinds of things that could go wrong. Or I’ll ask the person in this relationship, if this relationship was good and you felt constant passion affair and next year your spouse suddenly gets a dread disease that’s going to make them really messed up and crippled and sick for the next years, I guess you’re leaving them. Of course, everybody goes like, “No.” But the bottom line is, that’s good, but that’s not going to be what you signed up for.  How do we make the best of it? I did this one thing with one couple that worked like magic. I’m saying that worked like magic because I’d do it with everyone across the board, but usually, it doesn’t work like this. This was the low probability. Oh my god, this was the killer intervention as opposed to, this is a start for most people. It was such a cute couple, but I’d given him the thing. “This weekend, when you’re spending time with her, I want you to notice whenever you’re having fun, and although part of you wants to compare it to what it should be, I want you to consciously just notice whatever it is, like if it’s 5%.” Because a lot of times, you’re comparing your current feeling to what it should be. There could be good things happening and you don’t even notice because it’s like, “I was just thinking about this, I was just thinking about this.” He had that assignment to notice it, whatever. He came back and he was like, “We had a great weekend. I still don’t know if I love her or not, but if it could be like this forever, I’m good.” Now, that was a rarity, but that was the beginning of acceptance for most people, just noticing, oh, I’m not miserable every second. I agree a two-minute 20% joy isn’t like, oh wow, that makes it all worth it. But it’s stuff that you don’t notice all along. We’re trying to notice the good and the other stuff. Acceptance is not a decision; trying to learn it is. But when I talk about that couple who lost two kids, when I say it was more than a year for them to get to acceptance and what acceptance means for them is they didn’t compare every moment to what it would be like if their kids were still alive. In fact, I didn’t know this at the time when I told them that everything goes well after a year. You’ll still have a hole in your heart, but you’ll stop comparing every moment to if they were still alive. They just listened. But the dad wrote a book about mourning and he also did a one-man show called Grief, which I wish I could show everyone. But in one of those places, he said that when I told them that, in his mind, he was saying, “F you! I am never going to stop wishing my kids were alive.” And then he wrote that two years later, he’s come to realize it doesn’t do him or his kids any good to wish they were alive.” He’s in acceptance. He still misses them greatly. He can still cry at them, but he’s no longer making that comparison. I’m mentioning it because that takes time. No one expects a couple, three weeks after their kids are murdered, to be in acceptance. The same with anything I have to accept.  The person with OCD, they have this goal, but getting to that great state where “I’m living with this and it’s okay, I embrace this life” is hard. Luckily, most of the time what they have to accept isn’t devastating in the sense that nobody dies of AIDS. Am I with the wrong person forever? Well, maybe it’s the second-best life, but that’s the life I’m asking you to live for now, because all of us have no choice. Kimberley: Right. Let’s break it down.  Jon: I’m sorry. Kimberley: No, you’re great.  Jon: Okay. You’re good at being back on target. Kimberley: I’m a real visual person too. I don’t know if you know that about me, like if I need to see it visually-- Jon: By the way, that’s fantastic because to say something and show it visually just makes it easier for everyone else around you that you’re talking to. I appreciate what you’re going to do. Kimberley: Okay. Walk me through the visual here. The first step is what?  Jon: Why would you take this risk? Kimberley: Okay, what’s the second? THE SECOND STEP OF ACCEPTANCE SCRIPTS Jon: The second step of acceptance scripts is, if I do X, here’s a list of the things I’m actually scared might happen. I say actually scared because I want to go, what’s their fear? I can always go beyond even more horrible things, but I need to know what is their actual worst fear. Kimberley: Right. Let’s say for two if it was relationship OCD, it would be, “I find out I’m in a terrible relationship and I’m stuck with them.” Or if they were having harm obsessions, it would be, “I harm and kill my wife or my grandparent or so forth.” You would write that down. Jon: Yeah. “Here’s what might happen.” Kimberley: Okay. What’s step number three? Jon: If this happens, how would I try to cope with this in a positive way? Kimberley: That’s key, isn’t it? How would I cope in a positive way? Jon: Right. And that will often be second best. Kimberley: Which is acceptance. Jon: Well, it’s the road to acceptance. Remember, acceptance is not just this logical thing; it’s this emotional thing. I have clients and they appreciate it. It’s like, if we were just doing a therapy test, like say all the right stuff, they could ace therapy right away. They know how to say everything, they can do it. But feeling it takes time and behavior. I not only have to know it; I have to do the work of getting there. I have to go through all this pain. Now, I say, I think going through ERP is as painful as doing rituals. One is just an end of rituals versus endless rituals. I hate to keep going back to this couple, but what I said initially, the only good thing about coping is it was better than not coping. I had told them how well they were coping somewhere in the middle. Again, the dad said, “Wow, I hate to see the other poor bastards,” which was cute. I said, “Yes, but you’ve been in support groups, you’ve seen them.” He suddenly realized, “Whoa, we are coping even though this really sucks.” Kimberley: In this script—and maybe I’m wrong here, please tell me—I always think of the research around athletes and when they have an injury, there’s research to show that while they’re in the hospital bed with their new hip replacement and whatnot, the sports psychologists are coaching them through visual, imaginal, imagery of them doing the layup again and dunking the ball or turning the corner of the sprinting track or whatever. They’re doing that imagery work to help them play out how they would cope, how they would handle the pain, how they would return. Is that what this process is in step 3?  Jon: No. Well, that guy or a woman who’s imagining that, does their injury permit that possibility? Kimberley: Tell me more. Jon: Are they so injured that they will never be able to do a layup? Kimberley: No. In this example-- Jon: Or maybe somebody could say the odds are against them, so here’s what you can try to do, and here’s what to expect of how horrible it is to try.” But they might have to say, “You might not get there.” In a marriage, I don’t care how good the marriage is, I cannot say it will definitely work out. I can’t say you will definitely work out your problems. If I’m married for 20 great years, and then we have these three years at hell and I find out that you’ve been cheating on me the last two years, did I make a mistake? Or should I have left you four years ago, how would I know four years ago and should I have not tried, and all these questions that don’t have an answer. All I know is where I am now.  THE THIRD STEP OF ACCEPTANCE SCRIPTS  I like to say success is not making the right decision. It’s coping with the consequences of whatever decision you have made. I feel regret is cheating because regret is, again, I’m going into denial as soon as I have a regret. I should have done X. X would’ve been different. I don’t know if it would’ve been better. This failed. X being better is one possibility, but there are a whole lot of other ones where maybe it wouldn’t have been as good. All I can ever do is, what is next? That person in the relationship with ROCD, what do I need to do next? What have I learned? Somebody with ROCD did get divorced and gets into a relationship where they have the ROCD, but it’s such a better relationship. It’s not like you should have gotten out sooner because you know what, maybe if you didn’t go into that other relationship, maybe you wouldn’t have been ready for this one. Maybe you needed to go through your ROCD and go through all the crap to have this good one. Dumping that person sooner and getting into another relationship might have been better, or maybe you would’ve picked worse. We don’t get to know. All we know is what is from this moment on.  Part of the exposure is, okay, X might happen. What are the possibilities of coping? Again, I think I said, in my scenarios, the person can’t do suicide. They’re condemned to life and say, why I kill myself? That’s just a way of not thinking in the present. I want you to be stuck thinking about how you would try to cope with this. A lot of times, people have been so distant from it that it just seems like a screaming wall. It is like getting a phone call that somebody you love died. The whole world stops, and that’s where people stop thinking. But in the real world, something happens after you get that information.  Part of the exposure is to go through what happened next, what are some possibilities? I always say to somebody, “I don’t know if I can cope with the worst things that could happen to me, but I know that there are brave people who have. I don’t know if I can be like them, but they’re a model that I hope I will do that.” What if you don’t cope? Well, then I’ll be in deep trouble. My current plan is, the best I can do is I hope I will cope. I don’t want to be paralyzed and disfigured in a car crash. I hope I would cope. I don’t have to know that I’d cope because I’m going to wait till I get there to try to find out. But I might try to imagine it.  We’re going to imagine what would you actually do. In this relationship, how will I live never knowing? I’m taking the ROCD, how will I live? What if this is wrong? It might be wrong. What’s decent right now? What do you like? Because again, no person is perfect. How do I get into the state of that? Do I ever send people to marital counseling? If I see actual problems, I will, but I am not sending them to marital counseling to get rid of the ROCD. I’m sending them to get rid of actual problems. With or without those problems, they still have ROCD. I’m just eliminating, okay, here’s some definite reasons to get out. But once they’re resolved, then you’re still stuck with the ROCD. THE FORTH STEP OF ACCEPTANCE SCRIPTS  Kimberley: Is there a fourth step of acceptance scripts?  Jon: Kind of. It’s embedded in it, which is part of why I would take this risk, is what’s resulting from not taking this risk? What are the graphic horrible things that keep happening to you because you keep avoiding, including the torture you feel, the hours loss, humiliation from doing things? How are you actually hurting the people you think you love? Because a lot of times in ROCD, they can say they care about the person. I’ll always ask somebody, do you love your kids or love your spouse?” They’ll say, “Yeah.” “Will you do anything for them?” They’ll say yes. I’ll say, “I’m sorry, you’re a liar.” How do you hurt your family and loved ones with your ROCD? Not being present, yelling at them because they didn’t do something, and all the other ways that one might, asking for reassurance endlessly being in pain in the neck. I will point out, you have a choice in your relationship. I’m going beyond ROCD. But you get to pick between, are you going to serve your fear or your love? You keep choosing fear over love.  Part of acceptance does have to do with what my values are. Who is the person I want to be? Here’s another reason I need to do acceptance, because here’s life without acceptance. Most people who we see, we can say, the idea of trying to not accept and do avoid, I think you’ve done an amazing experiment of checking out that method. I think the results are clear, it sucks, so it’s time to try this other method. It’s like, why am I doing acceptance? Because I think, again, in our society we just make acceptance sounds so wonderful. But that’s just an idea. Why would acceptance actually be worth it? I have to think about why would it actually be worth it. I have to be motivated to do it. And then I’m stuck with this in-between thing that a lot of the time I’m doing a separate, recognizing I am not there yet, which by the way, there’s this great book that this wonderful person wrote on self-compassion, because I need self-compassion during treatment because I’m not where I want to be. It’s like I’m doing this really hard work and it’s not there yet. The best I get to say is, I’m working hard, I see some improvement, but yes, I’m not there yet and mourning.  Learning to live the second-best life takes time. I keep saying second-best life. I don’t actually mean it in some sense, but that is the feeling that when I’m working towards acceptance, that it is. I think in some cases, it’s not really a second-best life. I think a lot of times, if I overcome a fear, it’s like, this is great. Other times it is. I’ve had some people with a moral OCD about something they’ve done in the past and they’re going through all these contortions to try to convince themself that it’s not really bad even though they actually think it’s bad, but maybe here’s why it’s not bad. Part of the acceptance is, oh yeah, that was a bad shitty thing. You feel guilty about that. What is forgiving yourself mean? Shockingly, almost nobody knows what forgiving yourself means. How are you going to get to that point? But I have to accept, yeah, that was bad. That hurt people or whatever it is by whatever standards. Again, depending on who we’re talking about, it’s like, “Oh, I guess we have to have you accept being as bad as everyone else.” In some other cases, no, that was really bad. WHAT HAPPENS IF I REFUSE TO ACCEPT?  Kimberley: It’s great. The last part of the question is, what happens when I refuse to accept? What is the result of not taking this risk or even not accepting this, which is you have additional pain, right? The pain just keeps going and going and going. Jon: Right. That’s right. End of pain. Endless pain. Kimberley: Yeah. If they’ve used these somewhat prompts and people can go to your book and work through a lot of them, I know on your website there are a lot of worksheets as well. Once they’re writing these prompts, is there anything else you feel is important for them to know about this process or to be aware of or be prepared for in this process? Jon: I am pausing. The next revision of the book might be your inspiration. Well, because I know that it is way, way, way, way easier said than done. The core treatment for all OCD is the same. However, I have a completely different set of things I say depending on the presentation, because they each have their own set of things that the individual has to be focused on working to accept and live with. Although I think in my book I attempt. When I talk about each presentation, I do try to go over those and I’ve seen that for many people as helpful. But I also see for many people who’ve read the book, and even though they’ve read it, it ends up different for them to actually have to discuss it out loud. Sometimes it’s because they haven’t been able to think about it without realizing they avoid thinking about it. Sometimes because I think not all the connections are obvious, which I know is a really vague statement. I think I can go on, but I have to wait for you to ask a question.  Kimberley: Okay. We’re running out of time, so I want to make sure I’m respecting your time. Jon: Don’t respect my time, by the way. I set aside way extra time. This is on you if we end. Kimberley: Once you do those questions, you would then walk them through the four steps that you went through with scripting as well.  Jon: Yes, and some other horrible things because the horrible show, that should have been illegal. Actually, it’s not on anymore. I think you can still find that on YouTube. Toddlers & Tiaras and the crazy mothers who make their little girls try to be in beauty pageants. You know what, if you look at the pictures of the kids, it’s like, oh my God, they’re sexualizing this eight-year-old. But when you say that word, that means you can see what they have done. You recognize the sexual aspect. You know what, if I go and take this picture apart, this horrifies people when I say it. It’s like, if you look at their legs, it’s like, yeah, they have good legs. Now, nobody wants to say that, and it’s like, “Oh.” That’s our first response. But if I have POCD, I see that, “Oh my god, what’s wrong with me?” It’s an acceptance that we can see something and recognize a piece of it.  I think the most difficult POCD is the people who “I don’t want to be attracted to a 15-year-old.” I can say, if I show you this picture and tell you they’re 18, oh, that’s okay. If I show you the same picture and tell you they’re 15, no, that’s okay. It’s like somehow magically, I find that the picture, the attractive is the picture is right or wrong if I tell you the age, which of course makes no sense. The picture is attractive or not independent of that. It’s accepting, yes, I might find a whole lot of things. Again, what we think makes us accept or not do we act on it.  Kimberley: It’s interesting because as you know, we just got a new puppy. It’s taking over all of the Quinlan family and our lives. I had a moment where our puppy loves his belly to be scratched and right there is his genitals. I can see the projection of my mind of like, “What if you just touched that? Or what if you pulled that back?” The imagery, I could see myself doing it. Thankfully I have all these skills where I’m able to go, “Oh, there’s a thought.” I did feel that hot, sticky anxiety flow going through. Jon: If you don’t change diapers regularly, I’m sorry, it’s a weird experience and I don’t care who you are, you’re going to think about that. If you’re changing a little person and there you are, you’re pumping their genitals because you got to clean it up and wipe it, you know what you’re doing and the healthy thing is like, “Okay, weird thoughts. This is normal.” If I have OCD, it’s like, “Why would I even think that?” Well, it’s normal. Kimberley: It’s funny because I was noticing myself going through some of these imaginal scripting steps myself. Instead of going, “No, no, no, no, no, you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t, you couldn’t. That’s terrible.” It was like, “All right.” This is the last question I want because you’ve given some great examples. As I was having this thought, I noticed the choice—I used the word “choice” on purpose—to get really edgy with it and try not to have it. My body language is all tight and I was gritting my teeth, or I was like, “Kimberley, just let it flow. Let the thoughts come.” As you’re doing this with your patients, is there any piece of you where you are bringing their attention to whether their shoulders are all tight and their jaw is all tight and their hands are all tight, or does that not matter? Jon: Nothing not matters, maybe, but that’s not always true. I thought you’d enjoy that. I think it depends on how much that’s part of their conscious fear response. I mean, I think if they’re doing their dog and it’s like, “Oh my God, am I excited by this,” the answer I would be working on is, “I’m not really sure. Maybe I am in some deep way. I’m not going to play with the genitals now and that’s the best I get to know.” Kimberley: Yeah. Agreed. I love this. Thank you. Again, I want you to say, where are the resources that people can go to get your concrete workbooks and your worksheets? Jon: I love how you make me have so many more books and worksheets. All the paperwork that appears in my book appears for free for anybody on the site FreedomFromOCD.com. In the Kindle and audio version, they couldn’t have those, so I was obsessed to have the Kindle version so I made that available. My book has most of my repertoire except about 20 minutes. Those are the main places. I hate to do this, but most of the time, when it comes to OCD books, I will say to people, there are a bunch of books that I would recommend, I think, that are roughly equal. But I think the one that most agrees with me happens to be mine, so I mention a few of the other good books. There is only one other book seriously that I tell people to get because I think it’s different, and that is your book, which is amazing because generally, I hate books that label themselves “self-compassion” because it’s just a version of be nice to yourself in a lot of words. I feel your book gives these not easy-to-do steps that make it work. Although as I said to you last time, it is just you used too many exclamation points. Kimberley: I will forever decline your opinion on my exclamation points and my emojis. If you ever text with me, you’ll know that I over emoji and I over exclamation points. Jon: I’m okay with that in text.  Kimberley: Thank you for that wonderful compliment. I do agree, yes, I have been blamed for the exclamation mark issue before, but I stand up and I stand with it. Jon: I like to warn people because I want them to know, oh no, don’t worry. This isn’t as you would put it all flowers and unicorns. It’s a great book with too many exclamation points. Kimberley: No, it’s funny because my mom helped me edit it while I was in a 14-day quarantine in a Sydney hotel for COVID. She would go through and she would add exclamation marks. She was adding e emojis and hearts and smiley faces and I was like, “Oh, we are going crazy here.” Jon: Now I know where you got it from. Kimberley: We’re all love. Thank you for that. It’s a very huge compliment. Thank you so much for being here and talking about this. Again, I love having you on talking just a little deeper into the topic and a bit more abstract, which I think is helpful too. Is there anything else you want to conclude on here? Jon: I would love to have some really cool, all-summarizing conclusion. The truth is, I can just talk endlessly. I’m just going to thank you for having me on and I am always willing to come talk with you. Kimberley: I would say, the point that I love that you made today, which I will add for you, is the word AND. The word AND is so important in this conversation. Jon: That’s a great summary because I think so many of our ideas, it’s not like they’re new, they get refined with time. In a way, something we’ve been saying all along and suddenly there’s this very slightly different way of saying it, but it summarizes it in a way that makes it more understandable, and AND I think does that for a lot of understanding mindfulness and acceptance. Kimberley: Yeah. Thank you so much.Jon: You take care.

Today we are talking all about ERP Scripting with Shala Nicely. Welcome back, everybody. We are on Week 2 of the Imaginals and Script Series. This week, we have the amazing Shala Nicely on the show. She’s been on before. She’s one of my closest friends and I’m so honored to have her on.  For those of you who are listening to this and haven’t listened to any of the previous episodes, I do encourage you to go back to last week’s episode because that is where we introduce the incredible Krista Reed and she talks about how to use scripts and imaginals. I give a more detailed intro to what we’re here talking about if this is new for you. This will be a little bit of a steep learning curve if you’re new to exposure and response prevention. Let me just quickly explain. I myself, I’m an ERP-trained therapist, I am an OCD Specialist, and a part of the treatment of OCD and OCD-related disorders involve exposing yourself to your fear and then practicing response prevention, which is reducing any of the safety behaviors or compulsions you do in effort to reduce or remove whatever discomfort or uncertainty that you feel. Now, often when we go to expose ourselves to certain things, we can’t because they’re not something we can face on a daily basis or they’re often very creative things in our mind. This is where imaginals and scripts can come in and can be incredibly helpful.  If you want a more detailed understanding of the steps that we take regarding ERP, you can go to CBTSchool.com, which is where we have all our online courses. There is a course called ERP School that will really do a lot of the back work in you really understanding today’s session. You don’t have to have taken the course to get the benefits of today’s session because a lot of you I know already have had ERP or are in ERP as we speak, or your clinicians learning about ERP and I love that you’re here. Honestly, it brings me so much joy. But that is there for you if you’re completely lost on what’s going on today, and that will help fill you in on the gold standard treatment for OCD and the evidence-based treatment for OCD and OCD-related disorders.  That being said, let’s get on with the good stuff. We have the amazing Shala Nicely. I am so honored again to have you on. You are going to love how applicable and useful her skills and tools are. Let’s just get straight over to Shala.  Kimberley: Welcome, Shala. I am so happy to have you back. I know we have a pretty direct agenda today to talk about imaginals versus scripting in your way in which you do it. I’d love to hear a little bit about, first, do you call it imaginals or do you call it scripting? Can you give me an example or a definition of what you consider them to be? SHALA’S STORY OF ERP SCRIPTING  Shala: Sure. Well, thank you very much for having me on. Love to be here as always. I’ll go back to how I learned about exposure when I first became a therapist. I learned about exposure being two different things. It was either in vivo exposure, so in life. Meaning, you go out and do the thing that your OCD is afraid of that you want to do, or it was imaginals where you imagine doing the thing that you want to do that your OCD is afraid to do. Research shows us that the in vivo is more effective, but sometimes imaginals is necessary because you can’t go do the thing for whatever reason. But I don’t think about it like that anymore. That’s how I learned it, but it’s not how I practice it.  To help describe what I do, I’ll take you back to when I had untreated OCD or when I was just learning how to do ERP for myself because I think that would help it make sense what I do. When I was doing ERP, I would obviously go out and do all the things that I wanted to do and my OCD didn’t want me to do. What I found was that I could do those things, but my OCD was still in my head, getting me to have a conversation about what we were doing in my mind. I might go pick up a discarded Coke can on the side of the road because it’s “contaminated,” and I would then go either put it in the trash, which would be another exposure because that would be not recycling. There are layers of exposures here. But my OCD could be in my head going, “Well, I don’t think that one is contaminated. It doesn’t look all that contaminated because it’s pretty clean and this looks like a clean area so I’m sure it’s not contaminated. What do you think, Shala?”  “Oh, I agree with you.” “Well, we threw it away, but I bet you, these people, they’re going to get wherever we threw it. They’re actually going to sort it out and it’s going to get recycled anyway.” There was this carnival in my head of information about what was going on.  I determined what I was doing because I was doing the exposure, but I wasn’t really getting all that much better. I was getting somewhat better but not all that much better. What I realized I was doing is that I’m having these conversations in my head, which are compulsive. In my recovery journey, what I was doing was I was going to a lot of trainings, I was reading a ton of books, and I talk about this in Is Fred in the Refrigerator?, my memoir, because this was a pretty pivotal moment for me when I read Dr. Jonathan Grayson’s book, Freedom from Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. I know you’re having him on this series as well. I read his book and he talks so much in there about writing scripts to deal with the OCD—writing scripts about what might happen, the worst-case scenario, living with uncertainty, and all that kind of stuff. That really resonated with me and I thought, “Aha, this is what I need to be doing. I need to be doing ERP scripting instead of having that conversation in my head with the OCD. Because when I’m doing exposure and I’m having a conversation with OCD in my head, I’m doing exposure and partial response prevention. I am preventing the physical response, but I’m not at all preventing the mental response, and this was slowing down my recovery.” The way I like to think of imaginals—you think about imagine like imagination—is that the way I do imaginal exposures, which I just call ERP scripting, is that I’m dealing with OCD’s imagination. People with OCD are exceptionally creative. If you’re listening to this and you think, “Well, not me,” for proof, all you have to do is look at what your OCD comes up with and look how creative it is. You guys share the same brain, therefore, you are creative too. All that creativity. When you have untreated OCD, it goes into coming up with these monstrous scenarios of how you’re harming others or harming yourself. You’re not ever going to be able to handle this anxiety or uncertainty or icky feeling or whatever, and it builds these scary stories that get us stuck.  WHAT IS ERP SCRIPTING?  What I’m trying to do with imaginal exposure or scripting is I’m trying to deal with OCD’s imagination because in the example I gave, I was picking up the Coke can and my OCD was using its imagination to try to reassure me all the ways this Coke can was going to be okay or all the ways this Coke can was going to eventually get recycled. I needed to deal with that. Really, the way I do ERP Scripting for myself and for my clients is I’m helping people deal with OCD’s imagination in a non-compulsive way. For me, it is not a choice of in vivo or imaginal; it is in vivo with imaginal, almost always, because most people that I see anyway are doing what I did. They are doing physical compulsions or avoidance and they’re up in their head having a conversation with their OCD about it. I’m almost always doing in vivo and imaginals together because I’m having people approach the thing that they want to do that OCD doesn’t want them to do, and I’m having them do scripts. The Coke can may or may not be contaminated. The fact that it’s sitting here and it looks pretty clean may or may not mean that it’s got invisible germs on it. I don’t know. The Coke can may or may not get recycled, it may or may not end up in recycling, but somehow contaminate the whole recycling thing that has to throw all that other recycling away because it touched it. I’m trying to use my imagination to make it even worse for the OCD so that we’re really facing these fears.  That’s how I conceptualize imaginal exposure. It’s not an AND/OR it’s an AND for me. Some people don’t need it and if they don’t need it, fine. But I find it’s very helpful to make sure that people are doing full response prevention in that they’re permitting both the physical and the mental compulsive response. DOES EVERYONE NEED ERP SCRIPTING?  Kimberley: Does everyone need ERP scripting? When you say some people don’t need it, what would the presentation of those people be? Shala: That for whatever reason, they are good at not having the conversation with OCD in their heads. This is the minority of people anyway that I work with. Most people are pretty good at having compulsive conversations with OCD because the longer you have untreated OCD, the more you end up taking your physical compulsions and pulling them inward and making the mental compulsion so that you can survive. If you can’t really do all that physical checking at your office because people are going to see you, you do mental checking. That’s certainly what I did. People become good at doing this stuff in their head and it becomes second nature. It can be going on. I talk about this a lot in Fred, I could do compulsions while I was doing anything else because I could do them in my head. Most people are doing that and most people have been doing that for long enough by the time they see somebody like me that if I just say, “Well, stop doing that,” I mean I’m never going to see them again. They’re not going to come back because they can’t stop doing that. That’s the whole reason they called me.  I’m giving them something else to do instead. It’s a competing response to the mental compulsions because they don’t know how to stop that. They’re not aware of what they’re doing, they don’t know how to stop the process, so I’m giving them something to do instead of that until they build the mental muscles to be able to recognize OCD trying to get them to have a conversation and just not answer that question in their head. But it takes a long time to develop that skill. It took me a long time anyway.  Some people, for whatever reason though, are good at that. If they don’t need to do the scripting, great. I think that’s wonderful. They don’t have to do it. The strongest response you can ever have to OCD is to ignore it completely, both physically and mentally. If you can truly ignore it in your head, you don’t even need to do the scripting. It’s a stronger response to just do what you want to do that upsets OCD and just go on with your day. HOW TO DO ERP SCRIPTING?  Kimberley: Amazing. So How do you do ERP Scripting? If you’re not one of those people and OCD loves to come up with creative ideas of all the things, what would be your approach? You talked about imaginals versus scripting. Can you play out and show us how you do it? Shala: I mean, I guess imaginals in the traditional way that it is defined versus scripting. The way I would do it is we would design the client and I would design whatever their first exposure is going to be. Let’s say that it would be touching doorknobs. They’re going to be in their location and I’m going to be in my location. They’re going to be wherever we’ve decided they’re going to touch the doorknobs. Maybe it’s to the outside of their house, for instance. I’m there on video with them and we have them touch the doorknob.  And then I asked them, “Well, what is OCD saying about that?”  “Well, OCD says that I need to go wash my hands.”  I will say, “Well, are you going to go do that?”  “No.”  I’m like, “Well, let’s tell OCD that.”  “Okay, OCD, I’m not going to wash my hands.”  “Now what’s OCD saying?”  “Well, OCD is saying that I’m contaminated.”  “Well, let’s say I may or may not be contaminated.”  So far, we’ve got, “I’m not washing my hands and I may or may not be contaminated.” Okay, now I’ll ask them their anxiety level. When they say, “Gosh, I’m at a four,” I’ll say, “Is that good?” They’ll often say, “No, I wish it were zero.” I’ll be like, “I’m sorry, what? What did you say? You want your anxiety to be zero? I must have misheard that. Is four good?” Finally, they understand, “Oh, well, four is not good because we could be higher.”  “What would be better than four?”  “Anything above a four.”  I’m working with them on that. We might start to throw some things in the script. I want to be anxious because this is how I beat my OCD, so bring it on.  I’ll ask again, “What’s your OCD saying?”  “Well, it’s saying that I’m going to get some terrible disease.”  “Well, you may not get a terrible disease.” I’m questioning back and forth the client as we’re working on this, until we’ve got enough of a dialogue about what’s going on in their head that we can then create a script. A script might look something like, “Well, I may or may not be contaminated. I may or may not get a dread disease, but I’m not washing my hands and I’m going to do this because I want my life back. It makes me anxious and I may or may not get a dread disease.” And then we’ll focus in on what’s bothering OCD most. Maybe it’s, at the beginning, the dread disease. “Well, I may or may not get a drug disease. I may or may not get a dread disease. I may or may not get a dread disease. I may or may not get a dread disease.” We might sing it, we say it over and over and over and over and over again, and look for what the reaction from the OCD is. If the OCD is still upset, then we still go after that. If it starts moving, “Well, what’s OCD saying now?” “Well, OCD is saying now that if I get a dread disease, then I won’t be able to do this thing that I have coming up that I really want to do.” “Well, okay, I may or may not get a dread disease and I may or may not miss this important event as a result.” We add that in.  We do that and do that and do that and do that for whatever the period is that we’ve decided is going to be our exposure period. And then we stop and then we talk about it. What did we learn? What was that like and what did you learn? Really focusing on how we did more than we thought we could do. We withstood more anxiety than we thought we could withstand. What did we learn about what the OCD is doing? I’m not so concerned about what the anxiety is doing. I mean, I want it to go up. That’s my concern. I’m not all that concerned about whether it comes down or not. I do want it to go up. We talk about what we learned about the anxiety that gosh, you can push it up enough and you can handle a lot more than you thought you did. That would be our exposure.  And then we would plan homework and then they would do that daily, hopefully. I have forms on my website that people can then send me their daily experience doing these exposures and I send them feedback on it, and that’s what we’re working on. We’re working on doing the thing that OCD doesn’t want you to do that you want to do, and then working on getting better and better at addressing all of the mental gymnastics in your head.  Now, if somebody touches the doorknob and they’re like, “Okay, I can do this,” and then their anxiety comes up and comes back down and they can do it without saying anything, great, go touch doorknobs. You don’t need to do scripting. Often, I don’t know if somebody needs to do that until we start working on it. If they don’t need to do the scripting, great. We don’t do the scripting. Makes things easier. But often people do need to. That’s generally how I do it. Obviously, lots of variations on that based on what the client is experiencing.  Kimberley: This is all thing, you’re not writing it down. Again, when you go back to our original training, for me, it was a worksheet and you print it out, you’d fill out the prompts. Are you doing any of this written or is this a counter to the mental compulsions in your head? Shala: None of this is written. The only time I would write it out is after that first session. When you’re really anxious, your prefrontal cortex isn’t working all that well, so you may have trouble remembering what we did, remembering the specific things that we said, or pulling it up for yourself. When you’re doing your exposure, you’re so anxious. I might type out some of what we said, the main things, send it to the clients, and have that. But really to me, scripting is an interactive exercise and I want my clients to be listening to what the OCD is saying for the sole purpose of knowing what we’re going to say. Because when we start doing exposure, what we’re often trying to do is keep pace with the OCD because it’s got a little imagination engine running and it’s going to go crazy with all the things that it’s going to come up with. We’re trying to stay on that level and make sure we’re meeting all its imagination with our own imagination. As we get better and better at this, then I’m teaching people how to one-up the OCD and how to get better than the OCD as it goes along. But it’s a dynamic process. I don’t have people read scripts because the script that we wrote was for what was going on whenever we wrote the script. Different things might be going on this time. What we’re trying to do is listen to the OCD in a different way. I don’t want people listening to it in a compulsive way. I want people listening to it in a, “I’ve got to understand my foe here and what my foe is upset about so I can use it against it.” That’s what we’re doing. There might be key things, little pieces we write down, but I’m not having people write and read it over and over. Now, there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s just not what I do. Everybody has a different way to approach this. This is just my way.  Kimberley: Right. I was thinking as you were talking, in ERP School, I talk about the game of one-up and I actually do that game with clients before I do any scripting or imaginals or exposures too. They tell me what their fear is, I try and make it worse. And then I ask them to make it even worse, then I make it even worse, because I’m trying to model to them like, we’re going here. We’re going to go all the way and even beyond. If we can get ahead of OCD and get even more creative, that’s better.  Let’s play it back and forward. You talked about touching a doorknob and all of the catastrophic things that can happen there. What about if someone were to say their thoughts are about harming somebody and they have this feeling of like, I’ve been trained, society has trained me not to have thoughts about harming people or sexual thoughts and so forth? There’s this societal OCD stigmatizing like we don’t think those things. We should be practicing not thinking those things. What would you give as advice to somebody in that situation?  Shala: I would talk a lot about the science about our thoughts, that the more that you try to push a thought away, the more it’s going to be there. Because every time you push a thought away, your brain puts a post-it note on it that says, “Ooh, she pushed this thought away. This must be dangerous. Therefore, I need to bring it up again to make sure we solve it.” Because humans’ competitive advantage—we don’t have fur, we don’t have fangs, we don’t have claws, we don’t run very fast—our competitive advantage is problem-solving. The way we stay alive is for cave people looking out onto savannah and we can see that there are berries here, there, and yawn. But that one berry patch over there, gosh, you saw something waving in the grass by it and you’re like, “I’m going to notice that and I’m going to remember that because that was different, but I also don’t want to go over there.” Your brain is going to remember that like, “Hmm, there was something about that berry patch over there. Grass waving could be a tiger. We need to remember that. Remember that thing, we’re not going to go over there.” We’re interacting with thoughts in that way because that’s what kept us alive.  When we get an intrusive thought nowadays and we go, “Ooh, that was a bad thought. I don’t know. I should stay away from that,” our brain is like, “Oh, post a note on that one. That one is like the scary tiger thought. We’re going to bring that up again just to make sure.” Every time we try to push a thought away, we’re going to make it come back. We talk a lot about that. We talk a lot about society’s norms are whatever they are, but a lot of society’s norms are great in principle, not that awesome in practice. We don’t have any control over what we think about. The TV is filled with sex and gore, and violence. Of course, you’re thinking those things. You can’t get away from those images. I think society has very paradoxically conflicting rules about this stuff. Don’t think about it but also watch our TV show about it.  I would talk about that to try to help people recognize that these standards and rules that we put on ourselves as humans are often unrealistic and shame-inducing and to help people recognize that everybody has these thoughts. We have 40, 60, 80,000 thoughts a day. I got that number at some conference somewhere years ago. We don’t have control over those. I would really help them understand the process of what’s going on in their brain to destigmatize it by helping them understand really thoughts are chemical, neuronal, whatever impulses in our brain. We don’t have a lot of control over that and we need to deal with them in a way that our brain understands and recognizes. We need to have those thoughts be present and have a different reaction to those thoughts so your brain eventually takes the post-it note off of them and just lets them cycle through like all the other thoughts because it recognizes it’s not dangerous.  HOW FAR CAN YOU GO IN ER SCRIPTING?  Kimberley: Right. I agree. But how far can you go in ERP Scripting? Let’s push a little harder then. This just happened recently actually. I was doing a session with a client and he was having some sexual pedophilia OCD obsessions playing up, “I’ll do this to this person,” as you were doing like I may or may not statements and so forth. And then we played with the idea of doing one up. I actually went to use some very graphic words and his face dropped. It wasn’t a drop of shock in terms of like, “Oh my gosh, Kimberley used that naughty word.” It was more of like, “Oh, you are in my brain, you know what I’m thinking.” And then I had to slow down and ask him, “Are there any thoughts you actually aren’t admitting to having?” Because I could see he was going at 80% of where OCD took him, but he was really holding back with the really graphic, very sexual words—words that societally we may actually encourage our children and our men and women not to say. Do you encourage them to be using the graphic language that their OCD is coming up with? Shala: Absolutely. I’m personally a big swearer.  That’s another thing I talk about in-- Kimberley: Potty mouth. Shala: I’ll ask clients, “What’s your favorite swear word? Let’s throw swear words in here.” I want to use the language that their OCD is using. If I can tell that’s the language their OCD is using, well, let’s use that language. Let’s not be afraid of it.  The other thing I do before I start ERP with anyone is I go through what I consider the three risks of ERP so they understand that what happens during our experience together is normal. I explain that it’s likely we’re going to make their anxiety worse in the weeks following exposure because we’re taking away the compulsions bit by bit, and the compulsions are artificially holding back the anxiety. I explained that their OCD is not going to roll over because they’re doing ERP therapy now. Nobody’s OCD is going to go, “Oh gosh, Shala is in ERP. I think I’ll just leave her alone now.” No, the OCD is going to ratchet it up. You’re not doing what you’re supposed to do, you’re not doing your compulsions, so let’s make things scarier. Let’s make things more compelling. Let me be louder. Your OCD can get quite a bit worse once you start doing ERP because it’s trying to get you back in line. When somebody is in an exposure session and their OCD is actually going places, they never even expected them to go, and I’ll say that’s what we’re talking about, “That’s just the OCD getting worse, that’s what we wanted. This is what we knew was going to happen.” We’re going to use that against the OCD to help normalize it. Then I also explain to people that people with OCD don’t like negative emotions more than your average bear, and we tend to press all the negative emotions down under the anxiety. When you start letting the anxiety out and not doing compulsions, then you can also get a lot more emotions than you’re used to experiencing so that people recognize if they cry during the exposures, if it’s a lot scarier than they thought, if they have regret or guilt or other feelings, that’s just a normal part of it. I explain all that. When things inevitably go places where the client isn’t anticipating they’re going to go like in a first exposure, then they feel this is just part of the process. I think it makes it so that it’s easier to go those graphic places because you’re like, “Yeah, we expected OCD to go the graphic place because it’s mad at you.” Kimberley: It normalizes it, doesn’t it?  Shala: Yeah. Then we go to the graphic place too. I tell clients that specifically because this is a game and I really want them to understand this is what your opponent is likely to do so that they feel empowered so we can go there too and trying some to take the shame out of it. When you said the graphic word and your client had a look on their face and it was because how did you even know that was in my head, because you were validating that it’s okay to have this thought because you knew it was going to be there. I think that’s a really important part of exposure too. HOW LONG DO YOU USE ERP SCRIPTING FOR?  Kimberley: So, how long do you do ERP Scripting for? Let’s say they’re doing this in your session or they’re at home doing their assigned homework. Let’s say they do it for a certain amount of time and then they have to get back to work or they’re going to do something. But those voices, the OCD comes back with a vengeance. What would you have them do after that period of time? Would they continue with this action or is there a transition action or activity you would have them do? Shala: That’s a great question. It depends a lot on really the stage of therapy that somebody is in and what is available to them based on what they’re going to be doing. Oftentimes, what I will ask people to do is to try to do the exposure for long enough that you’ve done enough response prevention that you can then leave the exposure environment and not be up in your head compulsively ruminating. Because if you were doing exposure for 20 minutes, you’ve done a great job, but then you leave that exposure and you are at a high enough anxiety level where it feels compelling. Now you have to fix the problem in your head even though you just did this great exposure. Then we’re just going to undo the work you just did. I try to help people plan as much as they can to not get themselves in a situation where they’re going to end up compulsively ruminating or doing other compulsions after they finish. But obviously, we can’t be perfect. Life happens.  I think some of the ways you can deal with that, if you know it’s going to happen, sometimes they’ll ask people to make recordings on their phone and they just put in their earpieces or their earbuds or whatever and they can just listen to a script while they’re doing whatever they’re doing. Nobody has to know what they’re doing because so many people walk around with EarPods in their ears all the time anyway. That’s one way to deal with it.  Another way to deal with it is to try to do the murmuring out in your head as best as you can. That’s really hard because they’re likely to just get mixed up with compulsive thoughts. You can try to focus your attention as much as you possibly can on what you’re doing. That’s going to be the strongest response. It’s hard for people though when they get started to do that. But if you can do that, I think that’s fine, and I think just being compassionate with yourself. “Okay, so I am now sitting here doing some rituals in my head. I’m doing the best I can.” If you’re not in a situation where you can fully implement response prevention in your head because you’re in a meeting and you got to do other stuff and you’ve got this compulsive stuff running in the background, just do the best you can. And then when you’re at a place where you can do some scripting, some more exposure to get yourself back on top of the OCD, then do that. But be really compassionate.  I try to stress this to all my clients. We are not trying to do ERP perfectly because if you try to do it perfectly, you’re doing ERP in an OCD way, which isn’t going to work. Just be kind to yourself and recognize this is hard and nobody is going to do it perfectly. If you end up in a situation where you end up doing some compulsions afterwards, well, that’s good information for us. We’ll try to do it differently or better next time, but don’t beat yourself up.   Kimberley: It’s funny you brought that up because I was just about to ask you that question. Often clients will do their scripting or their imaginal and then they have an obsession, “What if I keep doing compulsions and it’s not good to do compulsions?” Would you do scripting for that? Shala: Oh yeah. I may or may not do more compulsions than I used to be doing. I may or may not get really worse doing this. I may or may not have double the OCD that I had when I started seeing trauma. This may or may not become so bad that they have to create a hospital just to help me all by myself. We try to just create stuff to deal with that. But also, I’m injecting one up in the OCD, I’m injecting some humor, how outlandish can we make these things? I try to have “fun” with it. Now I say “fun” in quotes because I know it’s not necessarily fun when you’re trying to do this, but we’re trying to make this content that OCD is turning into a scary story. We’re trying to make it into a weapon to use against the OCD and to make this into a game as much as we can. Kimberley: I love it. I’m so grateful for you coming on. Is there anything that you want the listeners to know as a final piece for this work that you’re doing? Shala: Sure. I think that there are so many different ways to do exposure therapy. This is the way that I do it. It’s not the only way, it’s not necessarily the right way; it’s just the way I do it and it’s changed over the years. If we were to record this podcast in five years or 10 years, I probably will be doing something slightly different. If your therapist is doing something differently or you’re doing something differently, it’s totally fine. I think that finding ERP in a way that works for you, like finding how it works for you and what works best for you is the most important thing. It’s not going to be the same for everybody. Everybody has a slightly different approach and that’s okay.  One thing that people with OCD can get stuck on, and I know this because I have OCD too, is we can be black and white and say there’s one right way. Well, she does it this way and he does it that way and this is wrong and this is right. No, if you’re doing ERP, there are all sorts of ways to do it, so don’t let your OCD get into the, “Well, I don’t think you’re doing this right because you’re not doing this, that, or the other.” Just work with your therapist to find out what works best for you. If what I’ve described works well for you, great. And if it doesn’t, you don’t have to do it. These are just ideas. Being really kind and being really open to figuring out what works best for you and being very kind to yourself I think is most important. Kimberley: Amazing. Tell us where people can get more information about you. Tell us about your book. I know you’ve been on the podcast before, but tell us where they can get hold of you. Shala: Sure. They can get a hold of me on my website, ShalaNicely.com. I have a newsletter I send out once a month that they can sign up for called Shoulders Back! Tips & Resources for Taming OCD. In it, I feature blogs that I write or podcast episodes, other things that I’m doing. It’s all free where I’m talking about tips and resources for taming OCD. I have two books: Everyday Mindfulness for OCD that I co-wrote with Jon Hershfield and Is Fred in the Refrigerator? Taming OCD and Reclaiming My Life, which is my memoir. It is written somewhat like a suspense novel because as all of you know who have OCD, living with untreated OCD is a bit like living in a suspense novel. My OCD is actually a character in the book. It is the villain, so to speak. The whole book is about me trying to understand exactly what is this villain I’m working against. Then once I figure out what it is, well, how am I going to beat it? And then how am I going to live with it long term? Because it’s not like you’re going to kill the villain in this book. The OCD is going to be there. How do I learn to live in a world of uncertainty and be happy anyway, which is something that I stole from Jon Grayson years ago. I stole a lot from him. That’s what the book is about. Kimberley: It’s a beautiful book and it’s so inspiring. It’s a handbook as much as it is a memoir, so I’m so grateful that you wrote it. It’s such a great resource for people with OCD and for family members I think who don’t really get what it’s like to be in the head of someone with OCD. A lot of my client’s family members said how it was actually the first time it clicked for them of like, “Oh, I get it now. That’s what they’re going through.” I just wanted to share that. Thank you so much for being on the show. I’m so grateful to have you on again. Shala: Thank you so much for having me. It was fun.

Welcome back, everybody. Thank you for joining me again this week. I’m actually really excited to dive into another topic that I really felt was important that we address. For those of you who are new, this actually might be a very steep learning curve because we are specifically talking about a treatment skill or a tool that we commonly use in CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) and even more specifically, Exposure and Response Prevention. And that is the use of imaginals or what we otherwise call scripts. Some people also use flooding.  We are going to talk about this because there are a couple of reasons. Number one, for those of you who don’t know, I have an online course called ERP School. In ERP School, it’s for people with OCD, and we talk about how to really get an ERP plan for yourself. It’s not therapy; it’s a course that I created for those who don’t have access to therapy or are not yet ready to dive into therapy, where they can really learn how to understand the cycle of OCD, how to get themselves out of it, and gives you a bunch of skills that you can go and try. Very commonly, we have questions about how to use imaginals and scripts, when to use them, how often to use them, when to stop using them, when they become compulsive and so forth.  In addition to that, as many of you may not know, I have nine highly skilled licensed therapists who work for me in the state of California and Arizona, where we treat face-to-face clients. We’re actually in Los Angeles. We treat patients with anxiety disorders. I also notice that during my supervision when I’m with my staff, they have questions about how to use imaginals and scripts with the specific clients. Instead of just teaching them and teaching my students, I thought this was another wonderful opportunity to help teach you as well how to use imaginals and why some people misuse imaginals or how they misuse it. I think even in the OCD community, there has been a little bit of a bad rap on using scripts and imaginals, and I have found using scripts and imaginals to be one of the most helpful tools for clients and give them really great success with their anxiety and uncertainty and their intrusive thoughts.  Here we are today, it is again a start of another very short series. This is just a three-week series, talking about different ways we can approach imaginals and scripts and how you can use it to help manage your intrusive thoughts, and how you can use it to reduce your compulsions.  It is going to be three weeks, as I said. Today, we are starting off with the amazing Krista Reed. She’s been on the show before and she was actually the one who inspired this after we did the last episode together. She said, “I would love to talk more about imaginals and scripts.” I was like, “Actually, I would too, and I actually would love to get some different perspectives.” Today, we’re talking with Krista Reed. Next week, we have the amazing Shala Nicely. You guys already know about Shala Nicely. I’m so happy to have her very individual approach, which I use all the time as well. And then finally, we have Dr. Jon Grayson coming in, talking about acceptance with imaginals and scripts. He does a lot of work with imaginals and scripts using acceptance, and I wanted to make sure we rounded it out with his perspective.  One thing I want you to think about as we move into this series or three-part episode of the podcast is these are approaches that you should try and experiment with and take what you need. I have found that some scripts work really well with some clients and others don’t work so well with other clients. I have found that some scripts do really well with one specific obsession, and that doesn’t do a lot of impact on another obsession that they may have. I want you just to be curious and open and be ready to learn and take what works for you because I think all of these approaches are incredibly powerful.  Again, in ERP School, we have specific training on how to do three different types of scripts. One is an uncertainty script, one is a worst-case scenario script, and the last is an acceptance script. If you’re really wanting to learn a very structured way of doing these, head on over to CBTSchool.com and you can sign up for ERP School there. But I hope this gets you familiar with it and helps really answer any questions that you may have.  Alright, let’s get over to the show. Here is Krista Reed. Kimberley: Welcome back, Krista Reed. I am so happy to have you back on the show. Krista: Thank you. I am elated to be able to chat with you again. This is going to be great. Kimberley: Yeah. The cool thing is you are the inspiration for this series. Krista: Which is so flattering. Thank you.  IMAGINAL OR SCRIPT? Kimberley: After our last episode, Krista and I were having a whole conversation and you were saying how much you love this topic. I was like, “Light bulb, this is what we need to do,” because I think the beautiful piece of this is there are different ways in which you can do imaginals, and I wanted to have some people come on and just share how they’re doing it. You can compare and contrast and see what works for you. That being said, number one, do you call it an imaginal, do you call it a script, do you think they’re the same thing, or do you consider them different? Krista: I do consider them differently because when I think about script, I mean, just the word script is it’s writing, it’s handwriting in my opinion. I mean, scripture is spoken. That’s something a little bit different, but scripting is writing. When I think of an imaginal, that is your imagination. I know that I already shared with you how much I love imaginals because in reality, humans communicate through stories. When we can, using our own imagination, create a story to combat something as challenging as OCD, what a powerful concept. That’s exactly why I just simply love imaginals. Kimberley: I can feel it and I do too. There’s such an important piece of ERP or OCD recovery or anxiety recovery where it fills in some gaps, right? Krista: Yes, because imaginals, the whole point, as we know, it’s to imagine the feared object or situation. It could evoke distress, anxiety, disgust. Yet, by us telling those stories, we’re poking the bear of OCD. We’re getting to some of that nitty gritty. Of course, as we know that, not every obsession we can have a real-life or an in vivo exposure. We just simply can’t because of the laws of science, or let’s be real, it might be illegal. But imaginals are also nice for some people that the real-life exposure maybe is too intense and they need a little bit of a warmup or a buy-in to be able to do the in vivo exposure. Imaginal, man, I freaking love them. They’re great.  Kimberley: They’re the bomb.  Krista: They really are.  HOW TO DO IMAGINALS FOR OCD Kimberley: You inspired this. You had said, “I love to walk your listeners through how to do them effectively. I think I remember you saying, but correct me if I’m wrong, that you had seen some people do them very incorrectly. That you were very passionate because of the fact that some people weren’t being trained well in this. Is that true or did I get that wrong? Krista: No, you absolutely got it right. Correct and incorrect, I think maybe that is opinion. I’ll say that in my way, I don’t do it that way. That’s a preference. But this is an inception. We’re not putting stories into our clients’ minds. The OCD is putting these stories into our clients’ minds. If you already have a written-out idea of a script, of like fill in the blanks, you are working on some kind of inception, in my opinion. You are saying that this is how your story is supposed to be. That’s so silly. I’m not going to tell you how your story is supposed to be. I don’t know how your imagination works. When we think of just imagination, there’s so many different levels of imagination.  Let’s say for instance, if I have somebody who comes into my office who is by trade a creative writer, that imaginal is probably going to be very descriptive, have a lot of heavy adjectives. Just the way it’s going to be put together is going to be probably like an art in itself because this is what that person does. If you have somebody who comes in and creativity is not something that is part of a personality trait, and then I have a written fill-in-the-blank thing for them, it’s not going to be authentic for their experience. They’re going to potentially want to do what I, the therapist, might want them to do. It’s not for me to decide how creative or how deep that person is to go. They need to recognize within themselves, is this the most challenging? Is this the best way that you could actually describe that situation? If that answer is yes, it’s my job as a therapist to just say okay. Kimberley: How would one know if it’s the most descriptive they could be? Is it by just listening to what OCD has to say and letting OCD write the story, but not in a compulsive way? Share with me your thoughts.  Krista: I think that that’s almost like a double-edged sword because that of itself can almost go meta. How do I know that my story is intense enough? Well, on the surface we can say, “Is it a hard thing to say.” They might say yes, and then we can work through. But if I’m really assessing like, “Is it hard enough, is it hard enough,” and almost begging for them to provide some type of self-reassurance, they might get stuck in that cycle of, is this good enough? Is this good enough? Can it be even more challenging?  Another thing I love about imaginals is the limit doesn’t exist, because the limit is just however far your imagination can take you. Let’s say that I have a session with a client today and they’re creating an imaginal. I’m just going to give a totally random obsession. Maybe their obsession is, “I am afraid that I’m going to murder my husband in his sleep,” harm OCD type stuff, pretty common stuff that we do with imaginals. They do the imaginal and they’re able in session to work through it. It sounds like it was good. In the session, what they provided was satisfactory to treatment. And then they come back and say, “I got bored with the story,” which a lot of people think that that’s a bad thing. That’s actually a good thing because that’s letting you know that you’re not in OCD’s control of that feared response and you’re actually doing the work. However, they might still have the obsession. I was like, “Okay, so you were able to work through this habituate or get bored of that. Now, let’s create another imaginal with this obsession.” Because it’s all imagination, the stories, you can create as many as you possibly can or as you possibly want to.  I’m actually going to give you a quote. He’s a current professor right now at Harvard. He is a professor of Cognitive and Educational Studies. If you look this guy up, his name is Dr. Howard Gardner—his work is brilliant. He has this fantastic quote that I think is just a bomb when it comes to imaginal stuff. His quote is: “Stories constitute the single most powerful weapon in a leader’s arsenal.” Think about that. What a powerful statement that is. Isn’t that just fantastic? Because we can hear that as the stories OCD tells us as being hard. Okay, cool story, bro, that is your weapon OCD, but guess what? I’m smarter than you and I brought a way bigger gun and this gun isn’t imaginal and I’m going to go ahead and one up you. If I come back that next week in my therapist’s office and I’m able to get bored with that, I can make a bigger gun. Kimberley: I love that. It’s true, isn’t it? I often will say, “That’s a good story. Let me show you what I’ve got.” It is so powerful. Oh my gosh. Let’s actually do it. Can you walk us through how you would do an imaginal? Krista: This is actually something that I created on my own taken from just multiple trainings and ERP learning about imaginals, because one of the things that I was realizing that a lot of clients were really struggling with is almost over-preparing just to do the imaginal. Sometimes they would write out the imaginal and then we would work through that. But what I was finding is sometimes clients were almost too fixated on words, reading it right, being perfect, that they were almost missing out on the fact that these are supposed to be movies in our mind. Kimberley: Yeah. They intellectualize it. Krista: Exactly. I created a super simple format. I mean, we really don’t have a lot of setup here. It’s basically along the lines of the Five Ws. What is your obsession and what is your compulsion? Who is going to be in your story? Who is involved? Where is your story taking place? When is your story taking place? And when is already one of those that’s already set because I tell people we can’t do anything in the past; the past has already existed. You really need to be as present as possible. But the thing is that you can also think. For instance, if my obsession is I’m going to murder my husband in his sleep tonight, part of that might be tonight, but part of that might also be, what is going to be my consequence? What is that bad thing that’s going to happen? Because maybe the bad thing isn’t necessarily right now. Maybe that bad thing is going to be I’m not going to have a relationship with my children and what if they have grandchildren? Or what if I’m going to go to hell? That might not necessarily exist in the here and now, but you’re able to incorporate that in the story. When is an interesting thing, but again, never in the past, needs to start in the present, and then move forward.  And then also, I ask how. How is where I want people to be as descriptive as possible. For instance, if I say, and this is going to sound gritty, you’re fearful that you’re going to murder your husband tonight. Be specific. How are you going to murder your husband? Because that’s one of the things that OCD might want us to do. Maybe it is just hard enough to say, “I’m going to murder my husband.” But again, we’re packing an arsenal here. Do you want to just say that? Because I can almost guarantee you OCD is already telling you multiple different ways that it might happen. Which one of those seems like it might be the hardest? Well, the hardest one for me is smothering my husband with a pillow. Okay, that’s going to be it. That’s literally my setup. That’s literally my setup, is I say that. Actually, I have one more thing that I have to include. I have all that as a setup and then I say, “Okay, at the very end, you are going to say this line, and it’s, ‘All of this happened because I did not do the compulsion.’” If I were going along with the story of I murdered my husband, I suffocated him with a pillow, and in my mind, the worst thing to happen is I don’t have a relationship with my kids and grandchildren, and the compulsion might be to pray—I’ll just throw that out—the last line might be, “And now, I don’t have a relationship with my children or grandchildren all because I decided to not pray when the thought of murdering my husband came up in my mind.” That is the entire setup.  And then I have my clients get their phones out and push record. They don’t have to do a video, just an audio is perfectly fine. I know some therapists that’ll do it just once, but I actually do it over and over again. Sometimes it could be a five-minute recording, it could be a 20-minute recording, it could be a 40-minute recording. The reason for that being is if we stop just after one, we might be creating accommodation for that client, because I want my clients to be in that experience. That first time they tell that story after that very brief setup, they’re still piecing together the story. Honestly, it’s really not until about the third or fourth time that they’ve repeated that exact same story that they’re really in it. I am just there and every time they finish—I’ll know they finish because they say, “And this happened all because da da da da da”—I say, “Okay, what’s your number?” That means what’s your SUDS? And they tell me they’re SUDS. I might make a little bit, very, very minimal recommendations. For instance, if they say, “I murdered my husband,” I say, “Okay, so this time I want you to tell me how you murdered your husband.” Again, they say the exact same story, closing their eyes all over again, this time adding in the little bit that I asked for. We do that over and over and over again until we reach 50% habituation. Then they stop recording. That is what they use throughout the week as their homework, and you can add it in so many different ways.  Again, keeping along with this obsession of “I’m afraid I’m going to kill my husband tonight,” I want you to listen to that with, as you probably have heard this as well, just one AirPod in, earbud, whatever, keep your other ear outside to the world. This is its way to talk back to OCD. Just something along the lines of that. I want you to the “while you’re getting ready for bed.” Because if the fear exists at night and your compulsions exist at night, I want you to listen to that story before you go to bed. It’s already on your mind. You’re already in it, you’re already poking the bear of OCD. It’s like, “Okay, OCD, you’re going to tell me I’m going to kill my husband tonight? Well, I’m going to hear a story about me killing my husband tonight.” Guess what? The bad thing’s going to happen over and over and over again.  It’s such a powerful, powerful, powerful thing. Because it’s recorded, you can literally listen to it in your car. You can listen to it on a plane. You can listen to it in a waiting room. I mean, there’s no limit.  Kimberley: It’s funny because, for those of you who are on social media, there was this really big trend not long ago where they’re like what they think I’m listening to versus what I’m actually listening to, and they have this audio of like, “And then she stabbed her with the knife.” It’s exactly that. Everyone thinks you’re just listening to Britney Spears, but you’re listening to your exposure and it’s so effective. It’s so, so effective. I love this. Okay, let’s do it again because I want this to be as powerful as possible. You did a harm exposure. In other episodes, we’ve done a relationship one, we’ve done a pedophile one. Let’s pick another one. Do you have any ideas?  Krista: What about scrupulosity? Kimberley: I was just going to say, what about scrupulosity? Krista: That one is such a common one for imaginals. We hear it very frequently, “I’m going to go to hell,” or even thinking about different other religions like, “Maybe I’m not going to be reincarnated into something that has meaning,” or “It’s going to be a bad thing. Maybe I’m insulting my ancestors,” or just whatever that might be. Let’s say the obsession is—I already mentioned praying—maybe if I don’t read the Bible correctly, I’m going to go to hell. I don’t know. Something along the lines of that. If that’s their obsession, chances are, there’s probably somebody that maybe they have a time where they’re reading the Bible or maybe that we have to add in an in vivo where they’re going to be reading or something like that. A setup could potentially be, what is your obsession? “I’m afraid that any time I read my Bible, I’m not reading it correctly and I’m going to go to hell.” What is your compulsion? “Well, my compulsion is I read it over and over and over again and I reassure myself that I understand it, I’m reading it correctly.” Who’s going to be in your story? This one you might hear just, “Oh, it’s just me.” Really, OCD doesn’t necessarily care too much if anybody else is in this story. Where are you? “I’m in my living room. It’s nighttime. That’s when I read my Bible.” When is this taking place? “Oh, we can do it tonight.” Let’s say it’s tonight.  Interestingly enough, when you have stuff that’s going to go to hell, that means, well, how are you getting to hell to begin with? Because that’s not just something that can happen. Sometimes in these imaginals, the person has to die in order to get there, or they have to create some type of fantastical way of them getting to hell.  I actually had a situation, this was several years ago, where the person was like, “Well, death doesn’t scare me, but going to hell scares me,” because, in some cultures and some religions, it’s believed that there are demons living amongst us and so forth. “It’s really scary to think about, what if a demon approaches me and takes me immediately to hell and I don’t get to say goodbye to my family, my family doesn’t know.” Just even like that thought. We were able to incorporate something very similar to that.  Just to make up an imaginal on the spot, it could be, I’m reading my Bible. I’m in my living room, I’m reading my Bible, and the thought pops up in my brain of, did you read that last verse correctly? I decide to just move on and not worry about reading my Bible correctly. Well then, all of a sudden, I get a knock at the door and there’s these strange men that I’ve never seen in my life, and they tell me that they’re all demons, and that because I didn’t review the Bible correctly, I’m going to go to hell. I would go on and on and probably describe a little bit more about my family not missing me, I don’t get to see my kids grow up, I don’t get to experience life, the travel, and the stuff that’s really important to me, incorporate some of those values. I don’t get to live my value-based life. And then at the very end, I was summoned and taken to hell by demons, all because I had the thought of reading my bible correctly and I decided not to.” Kimberley: I love it, and I love what I will point out. I think you use the same model as me. We use a lot of “I” statements like “I did this and I did that, and then this happened and then I died,” and so forth. The other thing that we do is always have it in present tense. Instead of going, “And then this happens, and then that happens,” you’re saying as if it’s happening. Krista: Yeah. Because you want it to feel real to the person. In all honesty, and I wonder what your experience has been, I find some of the most difficult people to do imaginals with our children. Even though you would think, “Oh, they’re so imaginative anyways,” one of the biggest things I really have to remind kids is, I want you to be literally imagining yourself in that moment. Again, I see this with kids more than adults, but I think it just depends on context and perspective. We’ll say, “Well, I know that I’m in my living room,” or “I know that I’m in your office, so this isn’t actually happening to me in this moment.” You almost have to really work them up and figure out, what’s the barrier here? What are you resisting? Kimberley: That’s a good question. I would say 10 to 20% of clients of mine will report, “I don’t feel anything.” I’ll do a Q and A at the end of this series with common questions, but I’m curious to know what your response is to a client who reads like, “I kill my baby,” or “I hurt my mom,” or “I go to hell,” or “I cheat on my husband,” or whatever it is, but it doesn’t land. What are your thoughts on what to do then? Krista: A couple of things pop up. One, it makes me wonder what mental compulsions they’re doing. And then it also makes me wonder, are we going in the right direction with the story? Because again, like I mentioned before, if a client comes back and they’ve habituated to one thing, but they’re still having the obsession, well, guess what? We’re just telling stories. Because the OCD narrative is typically not just laser-focused—I mean, it can be laser-focused, but usually, it has branches—you can pick and choose. I’m going to go ahead and guarantee, that person who is terrified of killing their husband ensure they’re not going to see their grandchildren and children. I’m going to go ahead and waiver that there’s probably other things that they’re afraid of missing.  Kimberley: Yes. That’s what I find too, is maybe we haven’t gotten to the actual consequence that bothers them. I know when I’ve written these for myself, we tend to fall into normal traps of subtypes, like the fear that you’ll harm somebody or so forth. But often clients will reveal like, “I’m actually not so afraid that I’ll harm somebody. I’m really afraid of what my colleagues and family would think of me if I did.” So, we have to include that. Or “I’m afraid of having to make the call to my mom if I did the one thing.” I think that that’s a really important piece to it, is to really double down on the consequence. Do you agree? Krista: Oh, I agree a hundred percent. You got to figure out what is that core fear. What are you really, really trying to avoid? With harming somebody, is it the consequences that might happen afterwards? Is it the feeling of potentially snapping or losing control? Or is it just knowing that you just flat out, took the life of somebody and that that was something that you were capable of? I mean, there’s so many different themes, looking at what does that feared self like, what does that look like, and maybe we didn’t hit it last time. Kimberley: Right. Krista: I know this is going to sound silly and I tell my clients this every once in a while, is I’m not a mind reader. What I’m asking you, is that the most challenging you can go and you’re telling me yes, I’m going to trust you. I tell them, if you are not pushing yourself in therapy to where you can grow, I’m still going to go to bed home and sleep tonight just fine. But I want you to also go home and go to bed and sleep just fine. But if you are not pushing yourself, because we know sleep gets affected super bad, not just sleep, but other areas, you’re probably going to struggle and you might even come back next week with a little bit more guilt or even some shame. I don’t want anybody to have that. I want people to win. I want people to do well in this. I know this stuff is scary, but I’m going to quote somebody. You might know her. Her name is Kimberley Quinlan. She says, “It’s a beautiful day to do hard things.” I like to quote her in my practice every once in a while.  Kimberley: I love her. Yes, I agree with this. The way you explained it is so beautiful and it’s logical the way you’re explaining it too. It makes sense. I have one more question for you. Recently, I was doing some imaginals with a client and they were very embarrassed about the content of their thoughts. Ashamed and guilty, and horrified by their thoughts. I could see that they were having a hard time, so I gave them a little inch and I went first. I was like, “Alright, I’m going to make an assumption about what yours is just to break the ice.” They were like, “Oh yeah, that’s exactly what it is.” There was a relief on their face in that I had covered the bases. We did all of the imaginal and we recorded it and it was all set. And then at the end I said, “Is there anything that we didn’t include?” They reported, “Yeah, my OCD actually uses much more graphic words than what you use.” I think what was so interesting to me in that moment was, okay, I did them the favor by starting the conversation, but I think they felt that that’s as far as we could go. How far do you go? Krista: As far as we need.  Kimberley: Tell me what that means. Krista: Like I mentioned before, the limit does not exist and I mean, the limit does not exist. This is going to sound so silly. I want you to be like a young Stephen King before he wrote his first novel and push it. Push it and then go there. Guess what? If that novel just doesn’t quite hit it, write another one, and then another one, and let’s see how far you can go. Because OCD is essentially a disorder of the imagination, and you get to take back your imagination by creating the stories that OCD is telling us and twisting it. I mean, what an amazing and powerful thing to be able to do. I’m sure you’re the same in that you know that there’s a lot of specialists that don’t believe in imaginals, don’t like imaginals, especially when it comes to issues with pedophilia OCD. I think we also need to not remind our clients because that would be reassurance, but to tell these specialists, we’re not putting anything into our client’s heads that aren’t there to begin with. Just like you said, if your client is thinking like real sick, nasty core, whatever, guess what? We’re going to be going there. Are you cutting off the heads of babies in your head? Well, we’re going to be talking about stories where you’re cutting off the heads of babies. If that’s what’s going on, we’re going to go there. Kimberley: What’s really interesting, and this was the example, is we were talking about genitals and sexual organs and so forth. We’re using the politically correct term for them in the imaginal. Great. Such a great exposure. Vagina and penis, great. Until again, they were like, “But my OCD uses much more graphic words for them.” I’m like, “Well, we need to include those words.” Would you agree your imaginals don’t need to be PC? Krista: I hope my clients watch this, and matter of fact, I’m going to send this to them, just to be like, no, no. Krista’s imaginals with her clients. Well, not my imaginals. Imaginals that are with my clients. Woah, sometimes I’m saying bye to my client. I’m like, “I think I need a shower.” Kimberley: Again, when people say they don’t like imaginals or they think that it’s not a good practice, I feel like, like you said, if OCD is going to come up with it, it gives an opportunity to empower them, to get ahead of the game, to go there before it gets there so that you can go, “Okay, I can handle it.” I would often say to my clients, “Let’s go as far as we can go, as far as you can go, so that you know that there’s nothing it can come up with that you can’t handle.” Krista: I think that where it gets even more complex is when we’re hitting some of the taboo stuff. Not only pedophilia, but something like right now that I’m seeing a lot more of in my office is stuff relating to cancel culture. This fear that what if I don’t use somebody’s pronouns correctly? What if I accidentally say an inappropriate racial slur? I will ask in session and I’ll be super real. It’s hard for me to hear this stuff because this goes outside of my values. Of course, it goes outside of their values. OCD knows that. That’s why it’s messing with them. I’ll say, “Okay, so what is the racial slur?” My clients are always like, “You really want me to say it?” I said, “We’re going to say it in the imaginal.” I realized how hard that is to stomach for therapists. But in my brain, the narrative that OCD is pushing, whether it is what society views as OCD or taboo OCD, it doesn’t matter. We still have to get it out. It is still hard for that client. If that’s hard for that client to think of an imaginal or a racial slur, it is almost the exact same amount of distress for somebody maybe with an imaginal that I’m afraid I’m getting food poisoning.  We, as clinicians, just because we’re very caring and loving people, sometimes we can unintentionally put a hierarchy of distress upon our clients like, okay, I can do this imaginal because this falls with my values, but I don’t know if I can do this imaginal because pedophilia is something that’s hard for me to do and I don’t want to put my client through that. Well, guess what? Your client is already being put through that, whether you like it or not. It’s called OCD. Kimberley: Right. Suppressing it makes it come on stronger anyway. Love that. I think that the beauty of that is there is a respectful value-based way of doing this work, but still getting ahead of OCD. Is that what you’re saying? Krista: Absolutely. OCD tries to mess with us and think, what if you could be this person? Well, like I mentioned before, if a story is like a weapon, well, I’m going to tell a story to attack OCD because it’s already doing it to me. Kimberley: Yeah. Tell us where people can hear more from you, get your resources because this is such great stuff. Krista: Thank you. I’d say probably the best way to find me and my silly videos would be on my Instagram @anxiouslybalance. Kimberley: Amazing. And your private practice? Krista: My private practice, it’s A Peaceful Balance in Wichita, Kansas. The website is apbwichita.com. Kimberley: Thank you so much. I’m very grateful for you for inspiring this whole series and for also being here as a big piece of the puzzle. Krista: Thank you. I’m grateful for you that you don’t mind me just like this. I’m grateful for you for letting me talk even though clearly, I’m not very good at it right now. You’re amazing. Kimberley: No, you’re amazing. Thank you. Really, these are hard topics. Just the fact that you can talk about it with such respect and grace and compassion and education and experience is gold.  Krista: Thank you. At the end of the day, I really truly want people to get better. I know you truly want people to get better. Isn’t that just the goal? Kimberley: Yeah. It’s beautiful. Krista: Thank you. 

Welcome back, everybody. Today, we are going to have a discussion, and yes, I understand that I am here recording on my own in my room by myself, so it’s not really a discussion. But I wanted to give you an inside look into a discussion I had, and include you hopefully, on Instagram about a post I made about being busy.  Now, let me tell you a little bit of the backstory here. What we’re really looking at here is, is being busy a compulsion or an effective behavior? Here’s the backstory. I am an anxious person. Nice to meet you. Everybody knows it, I’m an anxious person. That’s what my natural default is. I have all the tools and practice using all the tools and continue to work on this as a process in my life. Not an end goal, but just a process that I’m always on, and I do feel like I handle it really, really well. In the grand scheme of things, of course, everyone makes mistakes and recovery is an up-and-down climb. We all know that. But one thing I have found over and over and over and over again is my inclination to rely on busyness to manage my anxiety.  The reason I tell you this over and over is it’s a default to me. When I’m struggling with anything, I tend to busy myself. Even when I had the beginning of an eating disorder, that quickly became a compulsive exercise activity because trying to manage my eating disorder created a lot of anxiety, and one way I could avoid that anxiety and check the eating disorder box was to exercise, move my body. Even though I fully recovered from that, and even though I consider myself to be doing really well mentally overall, I still catch myself relying on work and busyness as a compulsion, as a safety behavior to reduce or remove or avoid my anxiety.  I made a post on this and it had overwhelming positive responses. Meaning, I agree, there was a lot of like, “Oh, I feel called out or hashtag truth.” A lot of people were resonating with this idea that being busy can be a very sneaky compulsion that we do to run away from fear or uncertainty or discomfort or sadness and so forth. But then some of my followers, my wonderful followers came in hot—when I say “hot,” like really well—with this beautiful perspective on this topic and I really feel like it was valid and important for us to discuss here today. Let’s talk about that, because I love a good discussion and I love seeing it from both sides. I love getting into the nitty gritty and determining what is what. Let’s talk about me just because it’s easy for me to use an example. Let’s say I have a thought or a feeling of anxiety. Something is bothering me. I’m having anticipatory anxiety or uncertainty about something. My brain wants to solve it, but because I have all these mindfulness tools and CBT tools, I know there’s no point in me trying to solve it. I know there’s no point in me ruminating on it. I’m not going to change it or figure it out. I have that awareness, so I go, “Okay, now I’m going to get back to life,” which is a really wonderful tool. But what I find that I do is I don’t just get back to life. I, with a sense of urgency, will start typing, cleaning, folding laundry, whatever it is, even reading. I will notice this shift in me to do it fast, to do it urgently, to try and get the discomfort to be masked, to be reduced.  And then, of course, I want to share with you, what I then do is when I catch that is I go, “Okay.” I feel the rev inside me and then I ease up on it. I pump the brakes and I try to return back to that activity without that urgency, without that resistance to the anxiety, or without that hustle mentality. But it is a default that I go to that often I don’t catch until later on down the track. It’s usually until I start to feel a little dizzy, I feel a little lost, a little bit overwhelmed. And then I’m like, “Oh, okay, I’m overusing busyness to manage my anxiety.” The perspective that I loved was people saying, and one in particular said, “I want us to be really careful around that message because I think that some people can hear this idea that being busy is a compulsion and then start to question their own normal busyness throughout the day.” I’ll use the exact terms because I thought it was so beautifully said. They said, “You have to be pretty careful with how you explain this to some people with OCD because we’re told to lean into our values or live a ‘value-based’ life, and that does require us to be busy,” and I wholeheartedly agree.  I think that’s where I’m coming from. I want to offer to you guys that I want you to just check in and see if you’re using busyness, this urgent, rushing movement, or frantic experience in your body to avoid discomfort. And if so, that’s good to know. Let’s not judge that. Let’s not beat you up. Let’s not be unkind. Let’s just acknowledge that that is a normal response to having anxiety. In fact, it’s a big part of what’s kept us alive for all these years. That’s true. And we can return back. Once we catch that we’re doing those behaviors, we can return back to staying effective in our skills. But I don’t want you guys to worry that you are overusing busyness.  I think that the discussion I had online was to say, isn’t this a wonderful opportunity for us to see how anxiety or OCD or any anxiety disorder can make a really healthy behavior into a compulsive behavior? You might flip between the two, it mightn’t be all or nothing. An example of that might be prayer. Prayer is a beautiful practice for those who are spiritual. However, we can sometimes overuse prayer in a compulsive manner in this urgent, frantic, trying to get anxiety to go away manner, and then it’s being misused.  There may be sometimes you use prayer in this beautiful non-compulsive way and there’ll be other times when you’re absolutely using it as a safety behavior. Same goes for cleaning, same goes for thinking through your problems. There will be times when thinking through problems and solutions is a very effective behavior. However, there will be other times if you’re doing it with a sense of urgency to make the discomfort go away or you’re doing it to try and figure out something that you know you won’t figure out because there’s really no solution to it—that’s something for us to keep an eye out for. There are so many ways in which this can get blurred. Asking for help and reassurance. It’s not a problem to go to your loved ones and say, “I have this really huge presentation at work, would you let me rehearse it to you and you can give me feedback?” That’s an effective behavior. However, if we are doing that repetitively and we are doing it coming from this desperate place of urgency to get certainty and removal of discomfort, that’s how we may determine whether the behavior is a safety behavior that we want to start to reduce. I want to just offer this to you. If we’re being honest, this episode isn’t really about just the busyness. It’s being able to, again, for yourself, determine are the behaviors you’re doing being done because they line up with your values? Are they being done with a degree of willingness to also bring anxiety with you? I think that’s a huge piece of the work that I have to catch, which is, okay, I’m rushing, I’m hustling, I’m engaging in busyness just for the sake of trying to get rid of that discomfort. Can I pause and return back to that behavior? Because it might be a behavior or an activity I need to get done. But can I do it with an increased sense of willingness to bring anxiety along for the ride? Can I do it with a sense where I’m not trying to train my brain that anxiety is bad? Can I just say, “Yeah, it’s cool. Anxiety is here, let’s bring it along”?  I want to, again, reinforce to you guys, it’s okay that you haven’t figured this out because it’s probably ever-changing. There will be times when you are engaging in compulsive busyness and there’ll be other many times in which you’re not. What I would encourage you to do is not to spend too much time trying to figure out which is which, because that can become a compulsion as well. A lot of this is just accepting that nothing is perfect and just moving one step at a time moving forward as you can kindly and compassionately.  The only other thing I want to address here is this idea of a good distraction and a bad distraction. I think that this has been an argument or a complex discussion in the anxiety field for a long time. When I first was trained as an anxiety specialist, there were all these articles that talked about bad distraction, that distraction is bad and we shouldn’t do it, and we should just have our anxiety and let it be there and then focus on it and so forth. I actually don’t agree with that. In fact, I would go as far as to say, a real mindful practice would be taking the judgment out of destruction in general and saying that distraction is neither good nor bad. What distraction is, is up to you to decide whether it’s helping you and is helpful behavior that brings you closer to your recovery goals or not. I don’t want you to spend too much time trying to figure it out either, again, because I think it gets us caught in this mental loop of, am I doing recovery right? Am I doing my treatment right? Am I using the skills perfectly?  I think when we get to that point, we’re too far in the weeds and we have to pause and let it be imperfect and let it be uncertain and do our best not to try and solve that one, because often how would we know? There isn’t actually an answer to what’s bad and what’s good. I wouldn’t encourage you to place good and bad labels on those kinds of things because that usually will just keep you in a loop of anxiety anyway.  That’s just a few ideas on this idea of being overly busy being a compulsion. I really want to make sure I say one more time. I think there is absolutely an opportunity for us to consider that busyness is also neither good nor bad. It just is, and that you for yourself can determine whether it’s helpful for you to stay busy or not. What I will say—and I will use this as an example, I think I actually did a podcast episode on this—not long ago, my parents were voyaging across the Drake Passage, which is a very dangerous body of water that takes you from South America to Antarctica. It’s usually very, very calm or it can be incredibly dangerous to pass the Drake Passage. For the 18 hours that they were passing that, I engaged in a lot of busyness. I would say it wasn’t compulsive either. It was, I knew they were doing something scary. I knew that it would be probably fine, but it was still uncertain. I knew that there was nothing I would do to make my anxiety go down during that 18 hours. I knew I probably wouldn’t get a good sleep because I love them dearly and I want them to have a safe trip. I just said to myself, “I’m going to mindfully go from one activity to another. Because I don’t want to engage in a bunch of mental rumination, I’m just going to gently stay busy.” I think that’s fine. I think that that is effective. In fact, I was very proud of how I handled that. I was able to resist the urge to text them at two in the morning and be like, “Take a photo of the waves. I want to see that you’re okay.” You know what I mean?  I want to just offer to you that to check in whether your busyness is compulsive, be gentle with yourself either way to discuss with your mental health provider on what is a great way for you to engage in this kind of behaviors and for you to come up with your own protocol on how to determine when you’ve crossed over from being busy into compulsive busyness. That’s it. I think that from there, you can be gentle with yourself and practice being uncertain about what’s right and wrong.  I hope that was helpful. I’m very much just chatting to you. I didn’t do a whole ton of prep for this. I just wanted to include you in the conversation on “Is being overly busy a compulsion?” I wanted to give you some ideas and things to look out for and I hope that it helps you move forward towards the recovery that you’re looking for. Have a wonderful, wonderful day. If you guys want additional resources from me, you can head over to CBTSchool.com. We have all kinds of online options there for you. If you’re looking for one-on-one therapy, if you live in the state of California or Arizona, you can go to www.kimberleyquinlan-lmft.com and I look forward to chatting with you next week.

Hello and welcome back, everybody. We have an amazing guest today. This is actually somebody I have followed, sort of half known for a long time through a very, very close friend, Shala Nicely, who’s been on the show quite a few times, and she connected me with Dr. Ashley Smith. Today, we are talking about happiness and what makes a “good life” regardless of anxiety or of challenges you may be going through.  Dr. Ashley Smith is a Licensed Clinical Psychologist. She’s the co-founder of Peak Mind, which is The Center for Psychological Strength. She’s a speaker, author, and entrepreneur. She has her own TED Talk, which I think really shows how epic and skilled she is.  Today, we talk about how to be happy. What is happiness? How do you get there? Is it even attainable? What is the definition of happiness? Do we actually want it or is it the goal or is it not the goal? I think that this is an episode I needed to hear so much. In fact, since hearing this episode as we recorded it, I basically changed quite a few things. I will be honest with you, I didn’t actually change things related to me, but I changed things in relation to how I parented my children. I realized midway through this episode that I was pushing them into the hamster wheel of life. Ashley really helped me to acknowledge and understand that it’s not about success, it’s not about winning things, it’s not about achievement so much, while they are very important. She talks about these specific things that science and research have shown to actually improve happiness.  I’m going to leave it at that. I’m going to go right over to the show. Thank you, Dr. Ashley Smith, for coming on. For those who want to know more about her, click the links in the show notes, and I cannot wait to listen back to this with you all. Have a great day, everybody.  Kimberley: Welcome, Dr. Ashley Smith. I’m so happy to have you here. Dr. Ashley: I am excited to be here today. I’ve wanted to be on your podcast for years, so thank you for this. Kimberley: Same. Actually, we have joint friends and it’s so good when you meet people through people that you trust. I have actually followed you for a very long time. I’m very excited to have you on, particularly talking about what we’re talking about. It’s a topic we probably should visit more regularly here on the show. We had discussed the idea of happiness and what makes a good life. Can you give me a brief understanding of what that means or what your idea about that is? Dr. Ashley: Yeah. Oh, this is a topic that I love to talk about. When I think about it, I have a little bit of a soapbox, which is that I think our approach to mental health is broken. I say that as someone who is a mental health practitioner, and I really love my job and I love working with people and helping. But what I mean by that is our traditional approach has been, “Let’s reduce symptoms. Let’s correct the stuff that’s ‘wrong’ with someone.” When it comes to anxiety or depression, it’s how do we reduce that? And that’s great. Those are really important skills, but we’ve got this whole other side that I think we need to be focusing on. And that is the question of how do we get more of the good stuff. More happiness, more well-being. How do we create lives that are worth living? That’s not the same as how do we get rid or reduce anxiety and depression. In the field of psychology, there’s this branch of it called Positive Psychology. I stumbled on that 20 years ago as a grad student and thought, “This is amazing. People are actually studying happiness. There’s a science to this.” I looked at happiness and optimism and social anxiety and depression and how those were all connected. Fast forward, 15 years or so, I really hit a point with my professional life and my personal life where I was recognizing, “Wait a minute, I need more. I need more as an individual. The clients I work with need more. How do we get more of this good stuff?” This is the longest preamble to say, I did a deep dive into the science of happiness and learned a lot over the years, and I want to be really clear about a couple of things. When we talk about happiness, a lot of people think pleasure. “I want good experiences, I want to enjoy this.” That’s a part of it, this positive emotion that we all call happiness or joy. But that’s only a piece of it. There’s actually this whole backfiring process that can happen when we chase that. If I’m just chasing the next pleasant event, what that actually does is set me up to not have a happy life. Think about it. I mean, I love chocolate, and if I eat that unchecked because it brings me pleasure, at some point, it’s going to take a toll on my health. What does that actually do to my well-being and happiness?  What was really interesting getting into this area was, it’s not just this transient state of pleasure or enjoyment, but they’re the other factors that contribute to a good life. It’s things like relationships. It’s things like meaning and purpose. It’s engagement. It’s achievement even. It’s these things that are not always pleasant in the moment, but that really contribute to this sense of satisfaction with life or contentment with life. I think it’s really important that we need to be looking at what are the ingredients that really make a good life.  WHAT IS CONSIDERED A GOOD LIFE?  Kimberley: I love this, and I love a good recipe too. I like following recipes and ingredients. It’s funny, I’m actually in the process of getting good at cooking and I’m realizing for the first time in my life that following instructions and ingredients is actually a really important thing, because I’m not that person. First of all, what is a good life? When I looked at that, I actually put it in quote marks. What is a good life? What do you think? You explained it; it’s not chasing pleasure. We know that doesn’t work, otherwise, you just buy a bunch of stuff you don’t want and behave in ways that aren’t helpful. Not to also villainize pleasure, it’s a great thing, but what would you describe as a good life? Dr. Ashley: On the one hand, it’s the million-dollar question. Philosophers and scientists and religious leaders and all kinds of people have been trying to answer that question for eons. I don’t know that I have it nailed down. I think I’m humble enough to say I have my own ideas about it. To me, what makes a good life, it’s really when the way we spend our time lines up with what’s important to us, when we’re living in accordance with our values to use some psych buzzwords, but when we’re doing the things that really matter. I think also part of a good life is having daily rhythms and lifestyle habits that support us as biological creatures. I want to contrast that with the demands of modern life, which are that we should be productive 24/7, that we should be multitasking. People sacrifice sleep and movement and leisure time and stillness. I think all of that compromises us. It impacts us on a neurological level. Our brains are part of our system. If we’re not taking care of our system, they’re not going to function optimally. That gets in the way of a good life.  When we’re sacrificing relationships, when I look at all of the research, when I look at my own experience, a huge component of a good life is having quality relationships. Not quantity, quality. Trusting ones that are full of belonging and acceptance that are two-way support streets, those are really important. I think a lot of times, modern life compromises that. We get pulled in all of these other directions. Kimberley: Yeah. Oh my gosh, there’s so many things. I also think that anxiety and depression pull us away from those things too. You are anxious or you’re depressed and so, therefore, you don’t go to the party or the family event or the church service. That’s an interesting idea. I love this. Tell us about this idea of meaning. How do we find meaning? I’ll just share with you a little bit of my own personal experience. I remember when I was actually going through a very difficult time with my chronic illness and I know I was depressed at the time. It was the first time in my life where I started to have thoughts like, “What’s the point?” Not that I was saying I was suicidal, but I was more like, “I just don’t understand why am I doing all this.” I think that that’s common. What are your thoughts on this idea of the meaning behind in life? Dr. Ashley: That’s a fantastic question. I have a vision impairment, so I’m legally blind. It’s a really rare thing and it’s unpredictable. I don’t know how much sight I will lose. Ultimately, the doctors can’t tell me there’s no treatment options. It’s just I go along and every so often, there’s a shift and I see less. For me, I hit that same point you were talking about back in 2014 when I had to stop driving. I was anxious and I would say depressed and really wallowing in this, “What does this mean for my life? I can’t be independent. People aren’t going to associate with me personally or professionally when they see this flaw.” It was a dark point. For me, that’s when I went back to the science of happiness when I finally got tired of being stuck and I realized my anxiety skills and my depression skills. They’re helpful and I practice what I preach, but it wasn’t enough. And that’s really what propelled me back into this science of happiness where I figured, you know what, someone has to have done this.  I did come across this theory of well-being called the PERMA factors. These are like the ingredients that we need. I’m getting back to that because the M in this is meaning. With this, the PERMA factors, P is positive emotion. That’s the pleasure, the joy, the happiness. Cool. I know some strategies for boosting that. E is engagement. Are you really involved and engaged in what you’re doing? Are you present? Are you hitting that state of flow? R is the relationships, A (skipping ahead) is achievement, but M is this meaning, and it’s a hard one to figure out.  I remember then, this started what I was calling my blind quest for happiness where I started to think about, what do I need to do? How do I experiment? How do I live a happy life despite these cards I’ve been dealt? We don’t get to choose them. You’ve got a chronic illness, I have a vision impairment, listeners have anxiety and depression, and we get these cards. I think of it like if life is a poker game, we don’t get to choose the cards we’re dealt, but by golly, we get to choose how to play them, and that’s important. I think a lot of times people can turn adversity into meaning. For me, I’m now at a point where it’s not that I don’t care about my vision, it’s just I really accepted it. It is what it is, it’s going to do what it’s going to do, and I’m focusing on the things I can control. That has given me a sense of meaning. I want to help other people live better lives. I want to help other people crack the code of how our brains work against us and how do we play our cards well. If we go to all of this, “meaning” is really just finding something that’s bigger than you are, finding something to pursue or contribute to that’s bigger than you. I think when we look at anxiety and depression, the nature of those experiences is that they make us very self-involved. I mean, people with anxiety and depression, in my experience, have giant hearts, tons of empathy, but it locks our thinking into our experience and what’s going on in these unhelpful thoughts.  When we can connect with something bigger than us, it gets us outside of that.  If I go back to grad school, writing my dissertation was decidedly not a fun experience. Would I do it again? Yes. Because it was worth it on this path to my reason for being—helping people live better lives. Sometimes I think when we have this meaning, this purpose, this greater good, it helps us endure the things that I want to say suck. Kimberley: You can say suck. Dr. Ashley: Yeah. That’s where it’s not just about how do I get rid of anxiety or depression. Sometimes we can’t. Chronic health conditions, anxiety is chronic. My vision is chronic. I’m not getting rid of this, but how do I live a good life despite that? I think there are a ton of examples throughout history and currently of people doing amazing things despite some hardship.  Kimberley: Yeah. I love this idea. It’s funny, you talk about being outside yourself. When I’m having a bad day, I usually go, there’s like a 10 minutes’ drive from us that looks over Los Angeles. If let’s say I’m having a day where I’m in my head only looking at my problems, and then I see LA, I’m like, “Oh honey, there is a whole world out there that you haven’t thought about.” I’m not saying that in a critical way, just like it gives me perspective. Dr. Ashley: I think that’s so important, to realize there’s so much more. When it does shrink our problems, all of a sudden, it’s manageable. Kimberley: Right. Let’s talk about just one more question about meaning. I’m guessing more about people finding what’s your why and so forth. What would you encourage for people who are very unhappy, have been chasing this idea of reducing anxiety, reducing depression, chasing pleasure, and feeling very stuck between those? Let’s say I really have no idea what my meaning is. What would be your advice to start that process?  Dr. Ashley: Experimentation. I think experimenting is a lifestyle that I wish everyone would adopt, because what happens is we want to think. We are thinkers. That’s what our minds were designed to do. That’s awesome and sometimes it’s really helpful, but I don’t think we’re going to think our way into passion or meaning or a good life. I think we have to start trying things. What will happen, if you notice, is your mind is going to have a lot of commentary. It’s going to say, “That’s dumb. That’s not going to work. Who are you to try that? You can’t do that.” It’s all just noise that if we look at what is it doing, it’s keeping you stuck. With the experimentation, I’m just a big fan of go try it. Whether you think it’s going to work or not, you don’t know. We want to trust our experience, not what our mind tells us. Trust your actual experience.  For me, I remember getting my first self-help book. It was actually called Go Find Your Passion and Purpose. Because I was at this crossroads, I had been doing anxiety work for a long time, had plateaued, and was feeling a little bored, and that coincided with the stopping driving. My whole personal world was just in disarray and I was like, “I’m going to go hike part of the Appalachian Trail while I can. While I do that, I’m going to find my purpose in life.” I did not find it, but it was an experiment. I go and I get this experience and I can say, “Okay, I’m not going to be someone who does a six-month hike. I made it four days. Awesome.” But go and experiment with things. I never thought that I would really want to write and I started a blog, and that has turned out to be such a positive experience. Prior to that, my writing experience had been very academic where it was a chore. Now, this is something I really enjoy, or talking to people.  I would say experiment and continue to seek out those new experiences. One, seeking out new experiences helps on the anxiety side because you’re continually putting yourself into uncertain and new, so your confidence level is going to grow, your tolerance for not knowing grows, and your tolerance for awkward grows. That’s my plug for go try new things, period. Somewhere along the way, you’re going to find something that sparks an interest or that sparks this sense of, “Yeah, this is me.” Notice that. I know you talk a lot about mindfulness, we need to notice what was my actual experience, not what did my head tell me. What did I actually feel? And keep experimenting until you find something. I think that’s really the key. Kimberley: I love that you said your tolerance for awkwardness. I think that is a big piece of the work because it is a big piece. We talk about tolerating discomfort, tolerating uncertainty, but I think that’s a very key point, especially when it comes to relationships, which I know is one of the factors. Tolerate the awkwardness is key. Dr. Ashley: Yeah. I think it’s huge. I’ve been seeking out new experiences since 2017. This is going to be my New Year’s resolution. It was such a transformational experience over the course of the year that I’ve just continued it, and I’m trying to get everybody to join me because it’s such an expansive practice. I think it’s great for anxiety and depression, it’s great for humans, it’s been great for me on this quest for a good life. But with this, it means I have put myself into some awkward situations on purpose. Sometimes I know going into it, sometimes I don’t.  I went to this one, it was called Nia. I practice yoga. That’s cool. That’s very much in my comfort zone. This was yoga adjacent, but it was also an interpretive dance with sound effects. You had to make eye contact with people and dance in these weird ways. I distinctly remember having this conversation with myself when I showed up, “What did you just get yourself into?” And then it was immediately, “Okay, you have two choices here. You can grit your teeth and hate the next hour, or you can embrace the awkward and dance at a three. Because she said, you can dance at a one, itty bitty, at a two or at a three and really go for it.” That for me was my, “All right, let’s just do this.” I embrace the awkward, and that was a turning point. That was amazing. And then now, when I think about good life, I feel like so many doors are opened because I’m not afraid of, “This is going to be awkward.” It’s going to be and you’re going to be okay or it’s going to make a hilarious story. I said, “Go for it.” Kimberley: You’re here to tell the story. I love it. You didn’t die from awkwardness. Dr. Ashley: No. Kimberley: Can you tell me about the P? Can you go through them and just give us a little bit more information? Because I think that’s really important. Dr. Ashley: Yeah. I love this theory because you can think about it as like, how are my PERMA factors doing? When you’re low, raise them. You know that those are the ingredients for a good life. The P is positive emotion. That is, we do need to spend time in positive emotional states. The more time we’re in the positive emotional states, the better compared to the negative ones like anxiety or sadness, or anger. Now that said, we know if we try to only pursue pleasure, it’s going to backfire. If I’m trying to avoid anxiety, I’m actually going to get more anxiety. But this is where behavioral activation comes in. Do things that are theoretically enjoyable and see if it puts you in a positive state. Again, theoretically enjoyable, because if you’re in the throes of depression, nothing feels enjoyable, do it anyways. And then notice, did it bring on a pleasurable emotional state? Cool. We want to do those things.  E is engagement. This is when people talk about finding flow or being in the zone. These are the activities that you’re fully engaged in it. Self-consciousness goes away. You lose track of time because you’re just in it. We know that the more consistently we are able to put ourselves in states of flow, the higher our well-being tends to be. Athletes will talk about this a lot. When they’re on the field, they’re in the zone. Musicians, artists. But there are other ways to do this. This is a place for me personally, I didn’t know. I was like, “Well, okay, great. I need E, I need engagement. What puts me in a state of flow?” It took experimentation and noticing. For me, writing does it. Web design, I’m not techy, but when I start to do design projects, I get in that state of flow. It has to be this perfect apex, this perfect joining of skill and pleasure, like enjoyment. If it’s too easy, you will not go into a state of flow. That’s just the P. If it’s too hard, we go into a state of stress or anxiety, so that’s not flow. We have to be right on the cusp of our skillset. It’s hard work, but we’re into it. That’s the E. R is relationships. We need quality relationships where we are being open, where we are being vulnerable, we’re really connecting with other people. That is huge. I mean, if we look at what’s the best predictor of life satisfaction, it’s quality relationships. This also is doing things for other people. Altruism, ugh, I love this side note. The act of kindness thing hits on three different factors. It feels good to do something good for other people. If you want a mood boost, go do an act of kindness. That reliably boosts our mood. It also improves relationships and it can tap into that meaning. I love that as just a practice.  The M we talked about, that’s meaning. And then the A, that’s achievement for achievement’s sake. As humans, it feels good to conquer goals. It feels good to accomplish things. And that contributes to our well-being independently of the positive feelings that we get from it, or the meaning in the relationships or the engagement. I’m also a really big fan of set goals and then crush them. It can be silly little things like, I’m going to hold my breath for two minutes. Okay, cool. That’s a silly little thing, but then it feels good to do it. Or it could be something huge like crossing those bucket list things off your list. Kimberley: You know what’s funny around achievement? I’ve got a couple of questions, but first I want to tell you your stories. Last year, I was struggling to do a couple of things that were really important to me for my medical health. I found an app called Streaks. Have you heard of Streaks? It’s a $5 app. But when you do the action, and for me it was taking my medicine, it does this little spiral and then it’s like, “You’ve done this for three days in a row.” And then tomorrow you click it and then it says, “You’ve done it for four days in a row.” You would think that the benefits of taking my medicine would be enough. But for me, it’s actually knowing I get that little positive reinforcement of like, “Look at me, I’ve taken my medicine for 47 days in a row, or now are like 300 days in a row.” I don’t think I deserve a medal for being able to take my medicine. But for me, that little bit of reward center on the achievement was a huge shift for me. And then it became, how many days did you practice your Spanish in a row? Even like, how many days did you do your Kegels? I’ve got all of the streaks happening and it’s really incredible how that little achievement piece does boost your mood. Dr. Ashley: Yeah. But what I love about this is you’re also talking about how to hack the system. We’re talking about our brains and this is the stuff that just lights me up, because oftentimes our minds will say, “Well, you should just take your medication. You should just do these things.” Well, that’s not how it works. There’s a million reasons why we don’t do the things we know we should do. But can we figure out how to hack the system? Yeah. Our brains love streaks. They love streaks.  it taps our reward centers, like you’re saying, and so let’s use the tools that work. That got you if your goal is to take your medication consistently. Using our brain’s glitchy wiring to our own advantage is something that’s huge. That did it. And then it does feel good. And then you get some momentum going and then you create a habit around that and it’s fantastic. Kimberley: Yeah. What about those who are overachieving to the point that it’s bringing their happiness down? What would we do there?  Dr. Ashley: Yeah. I think that’s a great question and it’s something that comes up a lot, especially when we look at anxiety and perfectionism. At least the way I think about it is coming back to what’s driving this. Is this being driven by fear? Is this being driven by values? For me, I almost think of it as—I’m going to try to make sense with it—is it the -ing or the -ed? Meaning, the doING (I-N-G) or the -ed as in I did this past tense. What I mean by this is, I notice for me when I’m approaching something, say a big goal, like I want to write a book this year. If I can approach that from a place of, “I am doing this because this is important to me, I feel driven to get this message out into the world,” the -ing, the process of doing it, that feels like it’s going to boost my wellbeing when I start to get pulled into the thoughts of the outcome. I’m going to write this book and how many people are going to read it and is it going to sell? I’m really looking at all of this, and underneath that is fear. What if it doesn’t sell? What if people judge it? What if they think it’s stupid? Then I’m focusing on the outcome, kind of when it’s done. That I think is actually going to detract from my well-being because it’s not coming from a valued place; it’s coming from this feared place.  A lot of times with overachieving, we’re chasing this other people’s expectations or we’re chasing this promise of happiness. When you do this, then you’ll be happy. It’s not going to work like that. It may be for a moment and then the bar just changes again. Now you’ve got another target. We have to come back to this, I think the process or the journey. Are you doing this because it matters to you, or are you doing this because some sort of fear is compelling you?  Kimberley: Right. I’m just asking questions based on the questions I would’ve had when I was struggling the most. I remember hearing something that blew my mind and I actually want your honest opinion about it. I remember I used to chase happiness, like you talked about, even though I was doing all these things. I was doing all these things, but there was that anxious drive behind it. I remember hearing somebody saying life is 50/50. Even though you’re doing all these things, you’re still going to have 50% great and 50% hard. For me, that was actually very relieving. I think I was caught in and I think a lot of people experienced this like, “Okay, I’m at 50%, how can I get to 55? How can I get to 56?” What are your thoughts on also accepting that you won’t be happy all the time, or what are your thoughts on balancing this goal for happiness or this lifelong playfulness around happiness?  Dr. Ashley: I agree with you completely. I think we have this cultural myth that we should be happy all the time. If you’re not happy, there must be something wrong. You’re doing something wrong. It sets up even this idea that being happy all the time is possible. It isn’t. If we look at, again, happiness, what people mean by that is a pleasurable or enjoyable state, an emotion that we like. Humans are wired. Two-thirds of our emotions would be under that negative category. Just by the way we’re wired, we’re more likely to have negative emotions, and they’re just messengers. They’re just designed to give us information about a situation. Some of them are going to be dangerous, so we’re going to feel anxious. Or we’re going to lose something we care about, so we’re going to be sad. We’re going to mess up, so we’re going to feel guilty. It’s unrealistic to expect to not have those emotions. I think that is a hundred percent something that we need to work on, just accepting happiness all the time is not possible and pursuing it is like playing a rigged game.  The other thing, you know how on the anxiety side we talk about facing fears because then you habituate or you get used to them. But that habituation process happens on the pleasurable side too. This is why when we chase happiness, we end up on this hedonic treadmill where it’s, “Oh, I’m going to go buy this thing. And then I’m going to feel really happy,” and you are. And then you’re going to habituate. Your body goes back to baseline so that happiness fades. If you’re looking to an external source, you’re going to get caught up in this always chasing something bigger and better, not sustainable.  I like to look at happiness as the side effect of living a good life. Do the things that we know matter. Take care of your health and wellbeing. Sleep, eat well, move your body, practice mindfulness, the PERMA factors that we talked about, and live in line with your values. If you’re doing those things, happiness is the side effect of that. Kimberley: To make that the goal, not happiness the goal.  Dr. Ashley: Yeah.  Kimberley: I think that’s very, very true. Again, for me, it was a massive relief. I remember this weight falling off of like, “Oh,” because I think social media makes it so easy to assume that everyone is just happy, happy, happy content, to feel all the things. It was delightful to be like, “Oh no, everyone’s got a 50/50.” Dr. Ashley: Exactly. When we know that’s normal, then all of a sudden, you can accept it. Like, I’m anxious for now, I’m sad for now. To do that, it does keep us from piling on extra. I have this saying that I love, “Just because life gives you a cactus doesn’t mean you have to sit on it.” A lot of times, we sit on it because we’re ruminating or I don’t want to feel this way and we’re fighting it. And that’s just amplifying it and making it a lot harder. When we can say, “Oh, this is where I’m at today. I’m still going to choose to do the things that I know are good for me, that are part of me, living a good life by my standards or my terms,” that’s going to be the side effect, is I’m going to end up with more happiness down the road, but not chasing it in that moment. Kimberley: I love this. Thank you for coming on and talking about this. I think this has been enlightening and so joyful to have these conversations. I feel a little lighter, even myself, after chatting with you, so thank you. Tell me how people can hear from you, get in touch with you, learn about your work. Dr. Ashley: Yeah, absolutely. I have a blog that I publish every week, so if you’re interested in that, you can subscribe at PeakMindPsychology.com/subscribe, o you can just check out all of the blog posts. That’s probably the best way to follow me and follow my work. I also have a TEDx Talk that came out pretty recently and you can watch that as well. It’s called Is Your Brain Deceiving You, and talk a little bit about learning to play my cards well. Kimberley: I love the TED Talk. Congratulations on that. It was so cool.  Dr. Ashley: Thank you.  Kimberley: Thank you again for coming on. This has been just delightful. Really it has. Dr. Ashley: I appreciate you having me.

Hello and welcome back, everybody. I’m so happy to be here with you. This is not the normal format in which we do Your Anxiety Toolkit podcast, but I wanted to really address a question that came up in ERP School about how to manage 10 out of 10 anxiety.  For those of you who don’t know, over at CBTSchool.com, we have a whole array of courses—courses for depression, generalized anxiety, panic, OCD, hair pulling, time management, mindfulness. We have a whole vault of courses. In fact, we have a new one coming out in just a couple of weeks, which is a meditation vault. It will have over 30 different meditations. The whole point of this is, often people say to me that the meditations that they listen to online can become very compulsive. It’s things like, “Oh, just let go of your fear or make your fear go. Cleanse away and dissolve,” and all the things. That’s all good. It’s just, it’s hard for people with severe anxiety to conceptualize that. That whole vault will be coming out very, very soon.  But this is actually a question directly from ERP School. Under each video of all the courses, there is always a place you can ask questions, and I do my best to respond to them as soon as I can. But I did say to this student, I will actually do an entire podcast on your question because I think it’s so important.  Here is what they said: “Hi Kimberley, I love all the information you give us. I get so much more out of this than I do with a therapy session for one hour once a week. That being said, I’m feeling a little bit overwhelmed. There is just so much information and so many tools.”  Yes guys, I admit to that. I do tend to heavy-dose all of my courses with all the science. I can bring in as many tools as I can with the point being that I want you to feel like you have a tool belt of tools, in which you can then choose which one you want to use, so I totally get what they’re saying here.  They said: “When I’m at a 10 out of 10, I’m hardly able to function and it all seems to go out the window. It either seems that noticing works as I run through my list of tools or I can’t even think straight enough to check in with myself or even think about the tools I could use. So, where do I even start in those terrible moments?” This is a really good question, and I think every single one of my clients in my history of being a therapist has asked this question. I know I have asked this question to my therapist because even as a therapist who has all the tools in those moments, it can feel overwhelming. What I did here is I pulled all of my followers on Instagram and asked them to give me their tools that they find helpful, and then I’m going to weigh in myself, and then I’m going to encourage you to just practice any of them. Now, often what happens—and this is the case for what obviously someone’s bought a course from me—is when you have all of these options, we fall into the trap of thinking there is a “right” tool to use, and I want to reframe that. In addition, there’s another myth that that one tool will make all your discomfort go away or that will be the tool of all tools for recovery. I want to really normalize that there is no one tool.  The whole reason that I do Your Anxiety Toolkit is to remind you that you’re going to have to practice multiple different things, you can’t put all your eggs in one basket, and it’s okay if it’s not a 10 out of 10 win. Meaning, it’s okay if it’s not perfect. Often I’ll say to clients, use the tools, even if it’s 50% effective. That’s still 50% effective more than what it would be in the past, which might be 0% effective or 1% effective. We take any wins we can take and we use it not as a fact that you’re a failure if it didn’t work, but more as just data on what to use for the next time. At the end of the day, the goals are: Did it give me a 1 or 2% improvement on how I handled it the last time? 1 or 2%, folks. That’s all I’m goaling for here. Was I kind as I practiced it? And, did it move me towards the five-year you, or the three-year you, or the one-month you? The you who’s in one month, does it move you towards that person that you’re trying to be? I often will think about me through the terms of, what would the five-year me do in this situation? What would the three-year me do? What would the three-month me do? It might be different, and then I just pick one. Knowing it’s probably not perfect, but that’s okay.  I have polled a whole bunch of people on Instagram because I honestly feel like folks who were in the thick of it actually are better at giving tools than even I am as a trained clinician who’s been through it. Of all of the different responses we got, I’ve actually broken it down into two separate sections per se. We’ve got mindset shifts and tools and actions. Again, these may actually feel again like, “Oh my gosh, now I have even more tools,” which is not a bad problem.  TAKE ONE MOMENT AT A TIME  But I want you in the moment that you’re at a 10 out of 10 to just pick one and be curious about it. I’m going to say here that the one I loved the most—I’m going to just actually give you one of the tools and actions first—is somebody (multiple people wrote this, in fact) said, just take one moment at a time. I have to say at a 10 out of 10 anxiety, that has been the most helpful for myself and for my clients. That when you slow down and you make it really simple, that’s actually the best way to respond.  We have these bigger concepts like ERP and habit reversal training and mindfulness and all these big concepts. What’s the saying? The rubber hits the road or something like that. When it gets really hard, simplify things, go back to basics, slow down, and just go, “Okay, all I have to do is get through this minute. What can I do in this one minute?” Slow it down. That’s one of the tools and actions.  BE AN OBSERVER  The second tool and action is somebody says, “I notice my five senses,” which is a more tactical skill of being present (be an observer) and in the moment, which is your mindfulness skill. For them it might be: What do you see? What do you smell, what do you taste? Some people play games with this. A lot of my clients have said, “When I’m at a 10 out of 10 and I’ve just faced my biggest fear, or I’ve been triggered, I find six different colors.” You’re not doing that to suppress your thoughts or make the fear go away. You’re doing it because that’s response prevention. You’re not engaging in catastrophization and mental rumination. Instead, you’re just being an observer of what’s in your present moment.  BREATHE A lot of you folks said, “Breathe, that the only thing I do is breathe.” Again, I love this because it’s simple. Now, does that mean we have to breathe a certain way? A lot of people said three breath-in and four counts out, or box breathing. It doesn’t matter. Please don’t put pressure on yourself. For me, I just really put attention on my breath in and my breath out. I say to myself, “I’m breathing in knowing that I’m breathing in and I breathe out knowing I’m breathing out.” Very, very simple.  DO NOTHING! ACCEPT IT IS HERE A next person said, “It feels awful, but I do nothing more than just talk to it, accept that it’s here, and breathe.” Again. These are really simple things. What I’m going to encourage you guys to do is just pick one of these things and play with it for a day or a couple of days, whatever it feels good. And then check in and be like, “How did that work? Was that successful at helping me stay present and reduce behaviors that actually create more problems?”  FEEL YOUR FEET ON THE FLOOR Someone says, “I just feel my feet on the floor.” Again, these are so basic, but almost everybody’s response wasn’t like, “I practice these very complex skills.” They’re just talking about simple, really basic things. “I put my feet on the floor.” USE TEMPERATURE Someone says, “I splash cold water on my face.” Again, simple. They’re just bringing their attention to sensations in the present.  CONNECT WITH YOUR SPIRITUALITY Someone said, “I pray.” I love that some of you bring your religion into it or your faith. “I pray and I be quiet.” Some of you might call that a form of meditation.  FEEL YOUR EMOTIONS & CRY This one I really love. Someone said, “I cry. I embrace crying. It’s such a good emotional release.” This one’s really hard for me, you guys. I’m a crier, but when I’m at a high level of anxiety, I feel like there are no tear ducts in my eyes, like I can’t get myself to cry. But really when I do allow myself to cry, it is such a cathartic experience, especially if I do it kindly.  EXERCISE Someone says they work out. I think that there’s some interesting piece to that. Let me just bring a little nuance to that. When we work out, really what I think we’re doing is we’re putting our attention on something that is very strategic, like 15 bicep curls. Or you get on the treadmill, you listen to some music, and so forth. I love this tool.  SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT (IF YOU ARE PRONE TO EATING DISORDERS) One thing to think about, and the only reason I’m telling you this is just because I myself used to use working out as a skill and it was very helpful. But if you are someone who’s prone to an eating disorder or compulsive exercise, just keep an eye out for that because, for me, my healthy practice of working out ended up becoming a compulsive eating disorder compulsion. Now, for most of you, that’s probably not the case, but I think with any of these things, like any time we overdo it or we do it to make the fear go away or to avoid the fear, we can get ourselves a little bit into trouble there. So just keep an eye out for that. For me, when I heard that, I was like, “Oh gosh, no, I couldn’t do that.” But I think for most of you and many of you, that is a really effective tool. We do have research that exercise is a very, very helpful way of managing anxiety. I do still work out for that exact reason, but we have to be careful of becoming compulsive VALIDATE YOURSELF Now, of the last of the tools, P.S. It’s actually mine. I did weigh in on the end. My tool and action that I would weigh in, in addition to all of these great ideas, is validate, validate, validate. One of the things I think we miss is when we’re at a 10 out of 10, whether that be anxiety, sadness, depression, stress, panic, whatever it may be, we forget to validate ourself by going, “This is really hard.” It makes complete sense that you can’t think about what tools. You’re at A 10 out of 10. It makes complete sense that this is something that is rocking your world. You could say, “Anybody in this position would struggle to find tools.”  Validate, validate, validate. That’s a self-validation, guys. A self-validation. It might be simply as much as you saying, “It’s okay that you’re struggling, I got you,” which moves me to the mindset shifts. There’s only four of them, but I thought they were beautiful. The reason I separated them is sometimes when we are in the 10 out of 10, naturally, our brain will send us to get away from here, fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. How can we make the fear go away and get out of this “dangerous” situation? If you can, often you won’t be able to. Again, there is some research that when you’re at a 10 out of 10, it’s very hard to actually have a mindset shift. But on the lower 6s, 7s, and 8s out of 10s, if you practice it, I think it gets a little easier.  Here are some of the things that a lot of the folks did weigh in on and say.  MINDSET SHIFTS TO CONSIDER Number one mindset shift is, “I remind myself that I don’t have to solve the thoughts I’m having.” Great mindset shift because in those moments, we’re like, “What is the answer? What is the answer? We need to figure it out,” and so forth. I love that.  The second one is, “I remind myself that I’m resilient and strong.” Total shift, away from, “I can’t handle this, what do I do” to “I’m resilient and strong.” For me—I’ll weigh in here—I often say, “Everything is figureoutable. I’ll figure this one out.” That sentence has changed my life because it takes away the pressure of having to find solutions right now and says, “I’m in a process now. I’ll figure it out. We’ll get to the end of it. It might take some bounces and bumps.” The third one is of course my all-time favorite, which is, “I can do hard things.” Today is a beautiful day to do hard things. So good. It can remind you that this is a moment to lean into.  I think this last one here is really important. someone weighed in and said, “I remind myself that being uncomfortable doesn’t mean dangerous.” This is gold, you guys.  There are some ideas of the people who weighed in and the most common responses. Let me also say, to be honest, a lot of people wrote, “I totally can’t handle it and I just fall apart.” A lot of people were making jokes like, “I throw a tantrum on the floor.” They were basically saying, “I haven’t figured it out yet.” I want to just really emphasize again the importance that it’s okay if you don’t have the 10 out of 10s figured out. We are not here to win all of the challenges.  I have been thinking about this a lot lately and I’ll actually use this as the final point. In our society and even in the community that I have built here, I have to also acknowledge that we can sometimes overdo the “Face your fears, use the tools, fix yourself, get better.” That message can be very, very helpful but also sometimes a little overachieving, a little condescending, a little pressured.  I want to just conclude here, if you are early in your recovery and you’re working on the 4s, 5s, and 6s out of 10, you’re doing enough. If you’re in the middle of your recovery or you’re accelerating in your recovery and you’re doing the 7s, 8s, and 9s, it’s okay that you don’t yet have the skills to do the 10s. Don’t focus too much on that. Just keep the expectations realistic. I don’t want you to leave today thinking, “Okay, now I have to go do those tools and I have to handle 10 out of 10s well.” That’s a lot to ask. I don’t handle the 10 out of 10s perfectly. Nobody does. I know so many anxiety specialists who also don’t handle the 10 out of 10s perfectly. Let’s not fantasize that or let’s not make that a thing so that you are constantly feeling like you have to be doing this perfectly.  Again, do what you can. Practice. This is trial and error. If it does work, great. If it doesn’t work, well good to know. Let’s just try again next time. It mightn’t work next time, that’s fine. Just good to know. We’re not here to always win every battle, but the fact that you asked this question, the fact that your inquiring shows me how much you value your recovery and how much you want to overcome this problem. For that, I applaud you. I applaud everyone listening. I hope that today was helpful for you.  Again, for those of you who are interested, go to CBTSchool.com. We have a whole vault of different courses you can take. We do have some new ones coming out here this year, which I’m super excited about. We’ve got courses for depression, all the things. You can go and listen to those. They are on demand. You have unlimited access. You can watch them as many times as you want. Take notes. Just listen, whatever you want to do, and I hope that you find them helpful.  Have a wonderful day, everybody, and I will see you next week.

Welcome back, everyone. I am so happy to do the final episode of our Sexual Health and Anxiety Series. It has been so rewarding. Not only has it been so rewarding, I actually have learned more in these last five weeks than I have learned in a long time. I have found that this series has opened me up to really understanding the depth of the struggles that happen for people with anxiety and how it does impact our sexual health, our reproductive health, our overall well-being. I just have so much gratitude for everyone who came on as guests and for you guys, how amazing you’ve been at giving me feedback on what was helpful, how it was helpful, what you learn, and so forth.  Today, we are talking about PMS and anxiety, and it is so hopeful to know that there are people out there who are specifically researching PMS and anxiety and depression, and really taking into consideration how it’s impacting us, how it’s affecting treatment, how it’s changing treatment, how we need to consider it in regards to how we look at the whole person. Today, we have the amazing Crystal Edler Schiller on. She is a Psychologist, Assistant Professor, and Associate Director of Behavioral Health for the University of North Carolina Center for Women’s Mood Disorders. She provides therapy for women who experience mood and anxiety symptoms across the lifespan. She talks about her specific research and expertise in reproductive-related mood disorders. She was literally the perfect person for the show, so I’m so excited.  In today’s episode, we talked about PMS, PMDD, the treatments for these two struggles. We also just talked about those who tend to have an increase in symptoms of their own anxiety disorder or mood disorder when at different stages of their menstrual cycle. I found this to be so interesting and I didn’t realize there were so many treatment options. We talked about how we can implement them and how we may adjust that depending on where you are in terms of your own recovery already.  I’m going to leave it there and get straight over to the show. Thank you again to Crystal Schiller for coming on, and I hope you guys enjoy it just as much as I did. Kimberley: Thank you so much for being here, Crystal. This is a delight. Can you just share quickly anything about you that you want to share and what you do? Crystal: Sure. I’m a clinical psychologist at UNC Chapel Hill. I’m an Associate Director of the UNC Center for Women’s Mood Disorders, where we provide treatment to people with reproductive hormones across the lifespan—starting in adolescence, going through pregnancy, postpartum, and all the way up through the transition to menopause. We also do research. My research focuses on how hormones trigger depression and anxiety symptoms in women. I do that by administering hormones, so actually giving women hormones and looking at the impact on their brain using brain imaging and then also studying specific symptoms that they have with that treatment. We’ve given hormones that mimic pregnancy and postpartum, and we also use hormones to treat symptoms as women transition through menopause and look at, like I said, how that impacts how their brain is responding to certain kinds of things in the environment and also how they report that changes their mood.  WHAT IS PMS?  AND WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PMS AND PMDD? Kimberley: Wow. You couldn’t be more perfect for this episode. You’ve just confirmed it right there. Thank you for being here. Before we get started, mostly we’re talking about what we call PMS, but I know that’s actually maybe not even a very good clinical term and so forth. Can you share with us what is PMS and What is the difference btween PMS and PMDD?  Crystal: Yeah. PMS stands for premenstrual syndrome. It actually is a medical diagnosis and it includes a host or a range of physical symptoms as well as some mild psychological symptoms. It can be things like breast tenderness or swelling, bloating, cramps, menstrual pain, as well as some anxiety, low mood, mood fluctuations. But those tend to be mild in a PMS diagnosis. PMS is really common in the general population. Some studies estimate 30, 40, 50% of women experience these symptoms. Very, very common. On the other hand, premenstrual dysphoric disorder is a condition that is associated with more severe depression and anxiety symptoms. The mood symptoms are more at the forefront, although those physiologic symptoms like the breast tenderness, swelling, pain, cramps can certainly be a part of it.  HOW CAN WOMEN DISTINGUISH BETWEEN NORMAL PREMENSTRUAL SYMPTOMS AND THOSE ASSOCIATED WITH PMS OR PMDD? Most women with PMDD do have those physical symptoms as well. Pain is a commonly reported symptom in folks with PMDD, but the mood fluctuations are more severe. People spend about half their menstrual cycle usually with pretty severe symptoms. And then once the period starts, those symptoms go away in PMDD. That’s actually part of the criteria for the disorder that the symptoms have to what we call clear out or remit soon after menstrual bleeding starts. So, that’s for the formal diagnosis of PMDD.  But then all sorts of people with anxiety or depression have what we call a premenstrual exacerbation of symptoms, so it’s also possible to have, let’s say generalized anxiety disorder or panic disorder, OCD, and have those symptoms get worse during certain periods of the menstrual cycle. We wouldn’t say that that person has PMDD; they just have a premenstrual worsening of symptoms. For some women, that occurs during that time, the week or two leading up to a period, but others have symptoms that are more around ovulation. Other women have symptoms that persist through the period. That’s the interesting thing. But also, the really complicated thing about this space is that there’s so many individual differences where some people have symptoms that sometimes, but not others. And then if you look at symptoms across the menstrual cycle and the next person, it may show a totally different pattern. But then over time, that pattern is maintained. It is clearly a pattern and a function of hormone change, but it can look different between different people. PMS SYMPTOMS VS PMDD SYMPTOMS? Kimberley: Why is it so different for different people? Do we understand that yet, or do we not have enough research? Crystal: We don’t have enough research. This is a relatively new area that one of my colleagues, Dr. Tory Eisenlohr, has been working on at the University of Illinois at Chicago. What she has been finding is that there are different subgroups or subtypes of people with this premenstrual worsening where, like I said, some people have it right before their period; others more around ovulation. Some people seem to have worsening symptoms when their hormone levels are going up. Other people have worsening symptoms when their hormone levels are going down. Some people have worsening symptoms anytime there’s a fluctuation or change. That’s what we see in my research as well. When I start administering hormones in some women, they almost immediately start experiencing anxiety and irritability. And then as soon as I take the hormone away, they feel better. Whereas other women feel terrible until their hormones even out again, and I’ve stopped messing with them so much. It’s really individualized and it probably has something to do with genetic predisposition as well as early environment. It’s this combination of factors. DOES ANXIETY INCREASE DURING PMS? Kimberley: Right. I could be so off base here, and please just tell me if I am. While we know it’s chemical, hormonal, biological, and genetic, is there also a small percentage of people who have these shifts from a cognitive component to where they’ve maybe had some depressive symptoms in the past, and so that when it comes on, they’re anxious about the symptoms coming on? Does anxiety increase during PMS? Is it as cognitive as well, or are you more looking at just the physiological piece? Crystal: Both, for sure. First of all, you’re not way off base. That’s totally what I see in the clinic, that as folks have had these experiences with hormonal shifts and they had some anxiety or symptoms of depression during those times, it raises concern as they go through those similar hormonal shifts in the future. It becomes, in some ways, a self-fulfilling prophecy. Like, “Oh my gosh, this time is going to be so horrible, I must prepare for it. Oh no, here it comes.” And then it is terrible because you’re expecting it to be terrible on some level.  TREATMENT OPTIONS FOR PMS AND PMDD Crystal: There are great treatment options for PMS and PMDD. That’s what we do in cognitive behavioral therapy for these very symptoms, is working through some of those expectations about how things are going to be and what we can actually do to prepare for it so that it doesn’t end up being bad just because we think it’s going to be bad. But that’s not to say that there isn’t also a hormonal driver because for some people, there clearly is. Again, that’s what makes this work so interesting and complicated, is that it’s both for so many people. And that’s what makes treatment somewhat complicated. CBT can go a long way toward helping with these symptoms. Not everybody, of course, can afford to access CBT. There are medication options as well, but the combination of these treatments seems to work the best for that reason. Kimberley: Yeah. CBT is good for so many things, isn’t it?  Crystal: Yeah.  Kimberley: This is a perfect segue into questions I commonly get. I’m not a medical professional, everybody knows that. I’m a therapist. But people will often report to me that their doctor said, “There’s nothing you can do. It’s your hormones, it’s your cycle. You have to ride it out and ride the PMDD or ride out your OCD or ride out your anxiety or your panic and just wait.” Would you agree with that? If so, or if not, what treatments would you encourage people to consider? Crystal: Okay, I want people to know that that is absolutely not true. If a medical provider tells you that, go see someone else because it’s just not true. I actually hear the same thing all the time from my own patients and from our research participants too. They raised this concern with their physician; it wasn’t taken seriously. That’s why I do this work because I think it’s really important. We do have good treatments that work. There are a whole bunch of different things that people can try.  MEDICATIONS FOR PMDD + PMS Crystal: Because I mentioned there are different ways in which hormones influence mood symptoms across individuals, the unfortunate news is that we have certainly different medication for pmdd + pms treatments that work for a lot of people, but you have to work with a physician that you like to find the combination or the exact right treatment for you. It’s not like a one-and-done where you would go in and say, “Okay, great, you’re going to put me on this low-dose antidepressant and I will feel better and it will completely take care of this.” The thing that I would really encourage people to do is find a physician who’s willing to work with them and see them regularly in the beginning, once every few weeks, or even more often as they try these different treatments to see what’s going to work. I already mentioned cognitive behavioral therapy. That’s a first-line treatment option for PMDD as well as for this premenstrual exacerbation or cyclic exacerbation of underlying anxiety or depression.  The other thing that works well for PMDD is selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. SSRIs that are used to treat depression and anxiety work well for PMDD but the mechanism is different, which is really interesting. A lot of people I hear from are reluctant to take SSRIs because they’ve heard that they’re difficult to come off of eventually if they wanted to, that you can become dependent on them. The good news for PMDD, for people who are worried about those studies, is actually, you don’t have any dependence on it because you only take it during that period of the menstrual cycle that’s problematic for you. You can take it just those two weeks leading up to the beginning of your period and then stop taking it once the period starts. That has been shown to fully prevent PMDD symptoms in some women. And then some other people take it all the time, like around the whole menstrual cycle just because it’s hard to remember to start it, or because they’re not exactly sure when their period is going to start. If you’re not super regular, it’s hard to know and you might miss that window of opportunity to start it before the mood symptoms. That’s another option. But SSRIs are another first-line treatment option.  And then some women have really good success with oral contraceptives. Low-dose combined estrogen-progestin contraceptives are what’s recommended. Yaz is the only one that’s FDA-approved to treat PMDD, but it’s not all that dissimilar from any other low-dose combined oral contraceptive. Sometimes it isn’t covered by all insurances. If that one is not covered, I tell people to ask their doctor about what are the other alternatives because you shouldn’t be paying tons and tons of money for your oral contraceptive.  And then the other thing that often helps, for women who have some symptom relief with Yaz or other oral contraceptives, is to take it continuously because, as I mentioned, it is often that hormone change that seems to provoke symptoms in folks. If you don’t have a period, then you don’t have any hormone change. It’s those placebo pills that cause a period, it’s the switching from a low-dose hormone to then having that withdrawal of progestin that causes a period. But you don’t medically need one. You can ask your doctor to prescribe the hormone continuously and not have a period at all. And that works well for a lot of folks with PMDD as well. And then you can combine all these different treatments.  LIFESTYLE CHANGES TO HELP PMS ANXIETY + PMDD  And then, in addition, some other non-pharmacologic lifestyle changes to help PMS anxiety and PMDD. Exercise has been shown to help. Regular exercise I think enhances all of our moods. It has the same effect within PMDD. There’s some studies showing that taking calcium seems to reduce symptoms as well. For most of our patients, I just have them start taking a multivitamin and try to boost up that calcium a little bit. But like I said, a lot of people need a combination of treatments. Different SSRIs work in slightly different ways and may be more effective for some people than others. Just because the first SSRI doesn’t work doesn’t mean that you couldn’t try another one. Again, it’s just a matter of finding a physician that’s willing to work with you to find the right combination and dose of these various treatments. Also possible for some people that none of these things work and those cyclic mood symptoms persist. And then there are other more invasive options for folks who don’t have good success with any of these. Kimberley: Right. I have a couple of questions about that. You’ve just given us an amazing treatment plan, or treatment options for someone who is experiencing PMDD or they’re having more onset of anxiety not to maybe that degree. I just want to clarify, for those who also have a chronic anxiety disorder, I’m assuming, but please again correct me, that they wouldn’t be one of the people who should be coming off of their SSRIs; they should stay on them if you’ve got an additional psychiatric or a mental illness on the side. Crystal: Correct. I would never advise someone to come off of their SSRI if they’re still having some breakthrough cyclicity in their symptom exacerbation. What I would suggest instead is to try adding on some of these other options. If you’re already on an SSRI and not doing CBT, that’s maybe where I would start, is to first track your mood symptoms relative to your period. This is a step that many people skip. The only way to diagnose PMDD, but also an important indicator for this cyclic exacerbation of symptoms, is to track every day your mood symptoms. You can just do this really easily on a calendar, even in the Notes app on your phone. I just have my patients make a mood rating of 0 to 10. 0 is feeling terrible, awful, worst I’ve ever felt; 10 is the best I’ve ever felt. It can be as simple as that. Or you can even use a smiley face symptom like, okay, feeling happy, feeling terrible. It doesn’t have to be anything special. There are apps and things you can use as well to do this. But what we’re looking for is a regular pattern of mood change relative to the menstrual cycle. Once you’ve established there is a regular pattern, then a CBT therapist can help you, like I said, prepare for those times and use some coping skills or strategies to manage those mood symptoms.  But I think the treatments are largely the same for people with PMDD versus other anxiety and depressive disorders. But if you have more of a chronic picture that just has some change in symptoms around the menstrual cycle, then you wouldn’t come off your SSRI. That’s just for people with pure PMDD.  CBT FOR PMDD and PMS ANXIETY Kimberley: I’m thinking about questions I’m assuming people will ask, and what comes to mind is, as myself as an OCD Specialist and as an anxiety specialist, we use CBT, but there are different types of CBT. We do a lot of exposure and response prevention for OCD and so forth. When we are talking about CBT, I want us to really be clear about what that looks like compared to all these other forms. What would that look like specific to somebody who has these symptoms, particularly around their menstrual cycle? Would it be more focused on the cognitive component or would it be an equal balance between managing cognitive distortions and behavioral activation? If we did behavioral activations, what would that look like? Crystal: I’m just going to lay my bias out on the table that I tend to lean more on the B side of CBT. I tend to be a behaviorist, and I do a lot of behavioral activation because, in my experience, it tends to work well in this space and for this population of folks. We do some behavioral planning. We track behaviors and mood symptoms. What did you do or not do when you were having that feeling of frustration or irritability and how did that work out for you? We get pretty in the weeds of like, what did you say, and then what happened next, and that sort of thing, and then we figure out like, okay, how do we prevent this kind of exchange from happening in the future when you’re feeling really frustrated or irritable, if it caused problems, because sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes anger, frustration, or irritability serves as fuel to make a behavior change that needs to be made. It’s a signal that something isn’t working well. I don’t want to pathologize all negative emotions because they’re not always bad.  Anyways, we look at what happened and where are the points at which we could have intervened and we rewind back in time to say, “Okay, how did you sleep the night before that thing happened that didn’t go so well? Were you eating that day? What was that like? Were you already pretty depleted going into this negative interaction with your boss?” How do we prepare for the next cycle to make sure that you are allotting enough time to sleep and protecting that sleep time, not staying up super late, getting emails done or something, but really taking good care of yourself, eating well, drinking enough water, taking care of yourself the way you would take care of a child? And then from there, we talk about, “Okay, let’s say this frustrating thing happens again and you’re noticing yourself getting anxious or frustrated in that moment. What are some tools or skills we could use to respond?” Here, we might use something like taking a break, like, “All right, I noticed I’m getting really upset. I need to take a break from this interaction so that I don’t say something that I might regret.” We might practice a skill like, “Thank you for that feedback. I’m feeling myself just getting flustered. I’m going to take five minutes and then I’d like to come back and have this conversation with you later, or an hour,” or “Can we come back and have this conversation next week,” depending on what it is and how out of sorts the person is feeling. And then using some skills to calm down. These might be mindfulness skills or any kind of self-care, emotion regulation skill that a person could use.  We tend to start with skills that folks have already had good success with. I’m not teaching Buddhist meditation on the first day of treatment, but instead, it might be simple things like, “Oh, I feel better when I get some sunshine and take a walk outside,” so that might be a good skill we could just use right off the bat. It’s pretty skill-based. And then we create a behavioral plan around that time of the month that tends to be more problematic so that we can keep people feeling well and well supported. A lot of times, that’s all it takes. It doesn’t require much more than that.  Kimberley: I love that. I love that you’re bringing in the mindfulness piece and a lot of self-care. This is really more of a question of curiosity, but I remember as a young teen, having a lot of PMS, being told you have to drink a lot of water. Is that like an old wives’ tale? Because now I’m telling my daughter. I’m curious, is that an old wives’ tale or is that actually a treatment or a part of the work? Crystal: I don’t know. I mean, I think Americans probably go a little overboard on water consumption, but I think it’s a good part of self-care to stay well-hydrated as well as well-fed and well-rested. You do lose some water through menstruation, and so it’s probably good practice in general just to keep yourself well hydrated. That doesn’t mean drinking a certain amount of water every day, but just noticing when you’re thirsty and drinking something when you are. Kimberley: Okay, I’ll be better about that because, like I said, as I tell my daughter, I’m always like, “This is probably an old wives’ tale.” Maybe we could talk this one through together. Let’s say I’m treating somebody. They’ve got severe OCD, severe panic disorder or severe health anxiety, severe social anxiety. They know and they’ve tracked using an app or, as you said, the notes on their phone or on paper, they’ve tracked it. They know around approximately that such and such day of the month, they’re going to probably have an onset of treatment. How prepared should they be in terms of what would that preparation time look like? Is there a strategy you would give people? I know for us, on the clinical side, I’m amping up homework skills for them to manage the actual disorder, but is there something they could be doing on the PMS side that we should remember to do? Crystal: I think it’s in my mind really specific to the individual and the symptoms that they’re having that they find tend to get worse as well as the physical symptoms. If they’re having a lot of pain around that time, then we want to also work on some pain management. Because when you’re feeling a lot of pain, that can make your anxiety worse. That would be something I would think about in addition to the standardized ramping up of homework that you would ordinarily be doing. Pain management can again look more like mindfulness, some meditative practice, or it can mean talking with one’s doctor about how to manage pain because there are non-addictive ways of managing pain as well. Kimberley: Right. You mentioned before talking to your doctor. Are you speaking specifically about just a GP or should they be going more to a reproductive doctor, OB-GYN? What kind of medical professional would you encourage people to reach out to?  Crystal: I think if you have a doctor that you trust, whether it’s a GP, OB-GYN, or even a psychiatrist, all of those are good options. Any of them can help treat these symptoms. Sometimes if the symptoms are really severe, then going to a specialist in reproductive mental health—that person would be a psychiatrist—can be helpful. There aren’t that many of us out there though. I have a number of really wonderful colleagues that I work alongside in our clinic and we treat patients together. I provide the psychotherapy and then they provide the pharmacotherapy and then I also have an OB-GYN on the team who provides the hormonal treatment. Not everyone can access this highly skilled team, however, and I do recognize that. I think starting with a GP or your OB-GYN is a good place to start. Again, if they’re not as knowledgeable as they need to be and they’re telling you, you just have to suck it up and deal with it, that’s not the right person.  Kimberley: I appreciate you saying that because I do think—I’ll be transparent—even to get somebody as skilled as yourself on the show for this was a really difficult thing. I was surprised how few people really understand it and are knowledgeable about the treatment options. It was harder than I thought and I’m so grateful for you to be here and talk about it with us. Crystal: I’m really sorry to hear that. I think there are a growing number of people interested in this, and I have a number of wonderful colleagues. But like you mentioned, there aren’t that many of us out there. The bright spot, I would say, is that we have a training program at UNC Chapel Hill with lots and lots of applicants every year. We’re training clinical psychologists and social workers and psychiatrists to do this work. Kimberley: Amazing. Thank you. Last question: Any final advice you would give someone who is experiencing symptoms of PMS and PMDD in regards to getting better or seeking treatment and help? LAST PIECE OF ADVICE FROM CRYSTAL Crystal: You’re not alone. It’s not all in your head. You deserve access to treatments that work. There are lots of treatments that work. Unfortunately, our medical system is really complex and sometimes you have to really advocate for yourself in this space. But if you are persistent and know what you’re looking for in a provider, you, I hope, will be able to find one that can be a good advocate and supporter of you to recovery because you don’t have to experience these symptoms by yourself or forever. Kimberley: Thank you so much for saying that. I think a lot of people feel like they’re crazy or they’ve been told they’re being crazy, which doesn’t help. Crystal: Yeah. I mean, the word “hysteria” came from studying or psychiatrists working with women who they felt were hysterical and their uterus was traveling around their bodies. The roots of all of this are in this really misogynistic place where many of us are working really hard to overcome that unfortunate history, but there’s often still a lot of stigma and misinformation out there. Kimberley: I remember in my master’s degree, that was the first part of the history of Psychology, that women who were just having PMS were being totally hyper-pathologized. Horrible. Crystal: Yeah. Really horrible. I hope that the work that we do makes a difference. I’m so glad that you’re tackling this topic on your podcast. I think this will, I hope, reach a lot of people. Kimberley: Thank you. Can you tell us where people can get ahold of you, where they might learn about you and the work that you’re doing? Crystal: Yeah. I have a website, it’s CrystalSchiller.com. C-R-Y-S-T-A-L S-C-H-I-L-L-E-R.com. I’m actually starting to write a book on this topic, so I really appreciate you reaching out and to know that people have questions about this because that’s what I see where I’m at too. And then the UNC Center for Women’s Mood Disorders, if you just Google that, you’ll find our website and you can read more about the different research studies that we’re doing and about our treatment program as well. Kimberley: Thank you so much and congratulations on writing a book. It’s a big challenge and a big accomplishment. Crystal: Thanks. Kimberley: Thank you so much for coming on. It’s been an absolute pleasure.Crystal: It was wonderful being with you today. Thank you so much. Take care.

In this week's podcast episode, we talked with Dr. Katherine Unverferth on Menopause, anxiety, and mental health. We covered the below topics: How do we define peri-menopause and menopause?  What causes menopause?  Why do some have more menopausal symptoms than others?  Why do some people report rapid rises in anxiety (and even panic disorder) during menopause.  Is the increase in anxiety with menopause biological, physiological, or psychological?  Why do some people experience mood differences or report the onset of depression during menopause?  What treatments are avaialble to help those who are suffering from menopause (or perimenopause) and anxiety and depression? Welcome back, everybody. I am so happy to have you here. We are doing another deep dive into sexual health and anxiety as a part of our Sexual Health and Anxiety Series. We first did an episode on sexual anxiety or sexual performance anxiety. Then we did an episode on arousal and anxiety. That was by me. Then we did an amazing episode on sexual side effects of antidepressants with Dr. Aziz. And then last week, we did another episode by me basically going through all of the sexual intrusive thoughts that often people will have, particularly those who have OCD.  This week, we are deep diving into menopause and anxiety. This is an incredibly important episode specifically for those who are going through menopause or want to be trained to understand what it is like to go through menopause and how menopause impacts our mental health in terms of sometimes people will have an increase in anxiety or depression. This week, we have an amazing guest coming on because this is not my specialty. I try not to speak on things that I don’t feel confident talking about. This week, we have the amazing Dr. Katherine Unverferth. She is an Assistant Clinical Professor at The David Geffen School of Medicine and she also serves as the Director of the Women’s Life Center and Medical Director of the Maternal Mental Health Program. She is an expert in reproductive psychiatry, which is why we got her on the show. She specializes in treating women during periods of hormonal transitions in her private practice in Santa Monica. She lectures and researches and studies areas on postpartum depression, antenatal depression, postpartum psychosis, premenstrual dysphoric disorder—which we will cover next week, I promise; we have an amazing guest talking about that—and perimenopausal mood and anxiety disorders. I am so excited to have Dr. Unverferth on the show to talk about menopause and the collision between menopause and anxiety. You are going to get so much amazing information on this show, so I’m just going to head straight over there. Again, thank you so much to our guest. Let’s get over to the show. Kimberley: Welcome. I am so honored to have Dr. Katherine Unverferth with us talking today about menopause and anxiety. Thank you for coming on the show. Dr. Katie: Of course. Thanks for having me. HOW DO WE DEFINE PERI-MENOPAUSE AND MENOPAUSE?  Kimberley: Okay. I have a ton of questions for you. A lot of these questions were asked from the community, from our crew of people who are really wanting more information about this. We’ve titled it Menopause and Anxiety, but I want to get really clear, first of all, in terms of the terms and whether we’re using them correctly. Can you first define what is menopause, and then we can go from there? Dr. Katie: Definitely. I think when you’re talking about menopause, you also have to think about perimenopause. Menopause is defined as the time after the final menstrual period. Meaning, the last menstrual period somebody has. It can only be defined retrospectively, so you typically only know you’re in menopause a year after you’ve had your final menstrual period. But that’s the technical definition—after the final menstrual period, it’s usually defined one year after. Perimenopause is the time leading up to that where people have hormonal changes. Sometimes they have vasomotor symptoms, they can have mood changes, and that period typically lasts about four years but varies. I think that people often know that they’re getting close to menopause because of the perimenopausal symptoms they might be experiencing. Kimberley: Okay. How might somebody know they’re going into perimenopause? I think that’s how you would say you go into it. Is that right?  Dr. Katie: Yeah. You start experiencing it there. I don’t know if there’s a specific term.  Kimberley: Sure. How would one know they’re moving in that direction?  Dr. Katie: Typically, we look for a few different things. One of the earliest signs is menstrual cycle changes. As someone enters perimenopause, their menstrual cycle starts to lengthen, whereas before, it might have been a normal 28-day cycle. Once it lengthens to greater than seven days, over 35 days, we would start to think of someone might be in perimenopause because it’s lengthened significantly from their baseline before.  Other symptoms that are really consistent with perimenopause are vasomotor symptoms. Most women who go through perimenopause will have these. These are hot flashes or hot flushes—those are synonyms for the same experience—and night sweats. Hot flashes, as the name describes what it is, they last about two to four minutes. It’s a feeling of warmth that typically begins in the chest or the head and spreads outward, often associated with flushing, with sweating that’s followed by a period of chills and sometimes anxiety. The night sweats are hot flashes but in the middle of the night when someone is sleeping, so it can be very disruptive to sleep. That combination of the menstrual cycle changes plus these vasomotor symptoms is typically how we define perimenopause or how we diagnose perimenopause. Once someone is later in perimenopause, when they’re getting closer to their final menstrual period, often they’ll skip menstrual cycles altogether, so it might be 60 days in between having bleeding. Whereas before, it was a more regular period of time. I think one of the defining features too is hormonal fluctuations during those times. But interestingly, there’s not much clinical utility to getting the blood test to check hormone levels because they can vary wildly from cycle to cycle. Overall, what we do see is that certain hormones increase, others decrease, and that probably contributes to some of the symptoms that we see around that time as well. Kimberley: Right, which is so interesting because I think that’s why a lot of people come to me and I try to only answer questions I’m skilled to answer. Those symptoms can very much mimic anxiety. I know we’ll get into that very soon, but that’s really interesting—this idea of hot flashes. I always remember coming home to my mom from school and she was actually in the freezer, except for her feet. It was one of those door freezers. So, I understand the heat that they’re feeling, this hot flash, it’s a full body hot flash stimulant like someone may have if they’re having a panic attack maybe.  Dr. Katie: Exactly. There are lots of interesting studies really looking at the overlap of menopausal panic attacks and hot flashes too. There’s a lot of this research that’s really trying to suss out what comes first in perimenopause because we know that anxiety predisposes someone to hot flashes and it can predispose someone to panic attacks, which is interesting. It seems like there’s this common denominator there. But I think that that’s a really interesting thing that hopefully we’ll get into this overlap between the two. WHAT AGE DOES SOMEONE GET PERIMENOPAUSE AND MENOPAUSE? Kimberley: I’m guessing this is something I’m moving towards as well. What age groups, what ages does this usually start? What’s the demographics for someone going into perimenopause and menopause? Dr. Katie: The average age of menopause is 51, and then people spend about four years in perimenopause. Late 40s would be a typical time to start perimenopause. Basically, any age after 40, when someone’s having these symptoms, they’re likely in perimenopause. If it happens before the age of 40 where someone’s having menstrual cycle abnormalities and they’re having these vasomotor symptoms, that might be a sign of primary ovarian insufficiency. It used to be called premature ovarian failure, but that would be a sign that they should probably go see a doctor and get checked out. If it’s after 40, it’s very likely that they’re having perimenopausal symptoms. Kimberley: Okay. What causes this to happen? What are the shifts that happen in people’s bodies that lead someone into this period of their life? Dr. Katie: I think there are a lot of things that are going on. I think it’s really important to emphasize that menopause is a natural part of aging. That this isn’t some abnormal process. Nothing is wrong. It’s a natural part of aging. It can still be very uncomfortable, I think. But basically, over time, a woman’s eggs decline and the follicles that help these eggs develop also develop less. There’s this decline in the functioning of the ovaries. There are a few reasons this might be. There are some studies that show that blood flow to the ovaries is reduced as a result of aging, so maybe that makes them function a little bit less. The follicles that remain in the ovaries are probably aging, and then the follicles, which are still there, also might not be the healthiest of follicles, which is why they weren’t used earlier.  There’s this combination of things that leads to these very significant hormonal changes that start around perimenopause. The first of these is an increase in follicle-stimulating hormone. Follicle-stimulating hormone is released by the pituitary and encourages the ovaries to develop follicles. That increases over time because the follicles aren’t developing in the same way. It’s like the pituitary is trying harder and harder to get them to work. At the same time as these, as the follicles and ovaries are aging, what we see is that the ovaries produce less estrogen and progesterone overall. But there’s still these wild fluctuations that are happening. FSH is going up, but it’s fluctuating up; estrogen and progesterone are going down, but they’re fluctuating down. It’s these really big shifts that seem to cause a lot of the symptoms that we associate with this time. WHY DO SOME HAVE MORE MENOPAUSAL SYMPTOMS THAN OTHERS?  Kimberley: Is there a reason why some people have more symptoms than others? Is it your genetic component or is there a hormonal component? What’s your experience? Dr. Katie: I think there are lots of different reasons and we probably need more research in this area. There are definitely genetic components that influence it. For example, we know that women who have family members who went through menopause earlier are likely to go through menopause themselves earlier. There’s some genetic thing that’s influencing the interplay of factors. I think we know that there are certain lifestyles. There are certain behaviors, like certain behaviors in someone’s life that can influence, I think, their symptoms. We know that smoking, obesity, having a more sedentary lifestyle can impact vasomotor symptoms. I think some really interesting research looks at the psychological influences here. We know that women who have higher levels of neuroticism, when they go through perimenopause, have more anxiety and mood changes associated with it. People who have higher levels of somatic anxiety, coming into this perimenopausal transition, can also have a tougher time. I think that makes sense when we think about someone with somatic anxiety. They’re going to be very, very attuned to these small changes in their body. During perimenopause, there are these huge changes that are happening in your body. That can trigger, I think, a lot of anxiety and a focus on the symptoms.  I think with vasomotor symptoms specifically, like hot flashes and hot flashes specifically, night sweats, not quite as much, we know that there are these psychological characteristics that probably perpetuate and worsen hot flashes. When someone has a hot flash, it’s certainly uncomfortable for most people. But the level of distress can be very different. They’ve looked at the cognitions that occur when people have hot flashes and at some point, people believe like, “Oh, this is very embarrassing, this is very shameful.” That doesn’t help them process it. They might believe, “This is never going to go away. I can’t cope with it.” That’s also not going to help. I think that’s really a target for cognitive behavioral therapy to help people during this time. Kimberley: It just makes me think too, as somebody who has friends going through this, and you can please correct me, what I’ve noticed is there’s also a grief process that goes along with it too, like it’s another flag in terms of being flown, in terms of I’m aging. I’ve also heard, but maybe you have more to say about people feeling like it makes them less feminine. Is that your experience too, or is that just my experience of what I’ve heard? Dr. Katie: No, I agree. I think in my clinical experience, people go through it in a lot of different ways. I think that there is this grief. I think it can bring out a lot of existential anxiety. It is a sign that you are getting older. This can bring up a lot of these questions like, who am I? What’s my purpose? Where am I going? But I think it’s really important to remind women that we’re not defined by our reproductive functioning. I think that that’s something that people forget. Were you less of a woman when you were 15 or when you were 10 maybe and you hadn’t gone through puberty? You’re still the same person. But I do think that there’s a lot of cultural stress around this, and I think there are a lot of complexities around the way society sees aging women. I think that those are cultural issues that need to be fixed, but not necessarily a problem within the woman themselves. WHAT CAUSES MENOPAUSE AND ANXIETY SYMPTOMS?  Kimberley: That’s really helpful to know and understand. Okay, let’s talk about if I could get a little more understanding of this relationship with anxiety. Maybe you can be clearer with me so that I understand it. Is it more of what we’re saying in terms of like, it’s the chicken and the egg? Is that what you mean in terms of people who have anxiety tend to have more symptoms, but then those symptoms can create more anxiety and it’s like a snowball? Or is that not true for everybody? Can you explain how that works? Dr. Katie: With regard to the perimenopausal period, what I think researchers are trying to figure out is, do vasomotor symptoms, like hot flashes, lead to anxiety and panic, or do anxiety and panic worsen the vasomotor symptoms? We don’t have a lot of information there. Part of it is because it’s difficult to study. Because when you’re doing symptom checklists, there’s a lot of overlap between a hot flash and a panic attack. It’s just been difficult, I think, to suss out in research. I think what we do know is there was one study that showed that people who have higher levels of anxiety are five times more likely to report hot flashes than women with anxiety in the normal range. Whether or not the anxiety is necessarily causing it, I do think that there’s probably some perpetuation of like, I think that the anxiety is perpetuating the hot flashes, which perpetuates the anxiety. We just don’t know exactly where it starts.  MENOPAUSE & PANIC ATTACKS  But I mean, if we just think about it for a second, if we think about what’s common between them, I think that both panic attacks and hot flashes have a quick onset. They have a spontaneous onset, a rapid peak, they can be provoked by anxiety, they can include changes in temperature, like feelings of heat and sweating. They can have these palpitations, they can have this shortness of breath, nausea. And then it’s very common that panic is reported during hot flashes, and hot flashes can be reported during panic. I think there’s this interplay that we’re trying to figure out. I think what’s interesting too is that common antidepressants can treat both panic and hot flashes, which is not something that probably everybody knows. There are probably different reasons that they’re treating each of them, but it is still just this other place where there is this overlap.  Kimberley: Okay. That’s really interesting. One thing that really strikes me is I actually have a medical condition called postural orthostatic tachycardic syndrome (POTS), and you get really dizzy. I’m an Anxiety Specialist, so I can be good at pulling apart what is what, but it is very hard. You have to really be mindful to know the difference in the moment because let’s say I have this whoosh of dizziness. My mind immediately first says I’m having a panic attack, which makes you panic. I’m assuming someone with that whoosh of maybe a hot flash has that same thing where your amygdala, I’m guessing, is immediately going to be like, “Yeah, we’re having a panic attack. This is where we’re going.” That makes a lot of sense to me. Now, some people also have reported to me that their anxiety has made them-- and again we have to understand what causes what, and we don’t understand it, but how does that spread into their daily life? What I’ve heard is people say, “I don’t feel like I can leave the house because what if I have a hot flash, which creates then a panic attack,” or “It’s embarrassing to have a hot flash. You sweat and your clothes are all wet and so forth.” Do you have a common example of how that also shows up for people?  Dr. Katie: Yeah. I think that what you were alluding to is this behavioral avoidance that can happen. We can see that with panic attacks where people sometimes develop agoraphobia, fear of being in certain places. Sometimes they don’t want to leave their home. I think with hot flashes, we do also see this behavioral avoidance when people especially tend to find them very distressing. They catastrophize it when they happen. They worry about social shaming. That avoidance, I think, the way that we understand anxiety is that if you have an anxiety and then you change your behaviors as a result of that anxiety, that tends to perpetuate the anxiety. That’s one of the targets of cognitive behavioral therapy for hot flashes, is really trying to unwind some of this behavioral avoidance. Also, we know that temperature changes can trigger hot flashes. Unfortunately, it looks like strong positive and strong negative emotion can trigger hot flashes, just feeling any end of the spectrum. There are certain other triggers that can trigger hot flashes. I think that it’s just this discomfort and this fear of having a hot flash that I think really generalizes the anxiety during this time.  HORMONES, ANXIETY, & MENOPAUSE There’s also this interesting hormonal component too that’s being studied as well. We’ve talked a little bit about progesterone. But in reproductive psychiatry, we really focus on this metabolite of progesterone called allopregnanolone. I think this is interesting because allopregnanolone is a metabolite of progesterone. We know that progesterone is going like this, up and up and down during this time. Allopregnanolone works on this receptor that tends to have very calming effects. Other things that work at this receptor are benzodiazepines like Xanax and Ativan or alcohol. It has this calming effect. But when it’s going like this, it’s calming and then it’s not, and then it’s calming and then it’s not, up and down rollercoaster. There’s some thought that that specifically might contribute to anxiety during this time. It can be more generalized. It’s not always just related to hot flashes, even though we’ve been more specific on that. It can be the same as anxiety at any point in anyone else’s life, like ruminative thoughts, worry, intrusive thoughts, just this general discomfort. I think this is a really exciting area of research where we’re looking at ways to modulate this pathway to help women cope better. There are studies looking at progesterone metabolites to see if they can be helpful with mood changes during this time. Kimberley: Interesting. Let’s work through it. As a clinician, if someone presents with anxiety, what I would usually do is do an inventory of the behaviors that they do in effort to reduce or remove that anxiety or uncertainty that they feel. And then we practice purposely returning to those behaviors. Exposure and so forth. From what you understand, would you be doing the same with the hot flashes or is there a balance between, there will be sometimes where you will go in purposely or go out and live your life whether you have a hot flash or not? How do we balance that from a clinical standpoint? Even as a clinician, I’m curious to know. As a clinician, what would I encourage my client to do? Would it be like our normal response of, “Come on, let’s just do it, let’s face all of our fears,” or is there a bit of a balance here that we move towards? Dr. Katie: It’s more of a balance. I think one of the important things is that what you want to do-- I think the focus is on the cognition here a little bit. I’m not familiar and I don’t think that exposure to hot flashes is intentionally triggering hot flashes repeatedly, like sometimes we do in panic disorders is part of this. What I understand from the protocol is that it’s really looking at the unhelpful cognitions that relate to menopause, aging, and vasomotor symptoms. This idea of like, everybody is looking at me when I’m having a hot flash, this is so shameful. Or maybe it goes further, like no one will like me anymore. Who knows exactly where it can go? We know that when people have cognitive distortions, it’s not really based on rational thinking. I think other part is you work on monitoring and modifying hot flash triggers, so it feels more in your control like temperature changes and doing those things. I think other things that you do is there’s some evidence for diaphragmatic breathing to help with the management of hot flashes. You teach someone those skills. I think your idea is you want to get them back out there and living their life despite the hot flashes, and also just education. This isn’t going to last forever. Yes, this is uncomfortable, but everybody goes through this. This is a normal part of aging. Also encouraging them to seek treatment if they need it. In addition to therapy, we know that there are medications that can help with this. If the hot flashes are impacting their life in a significant way or very distressing to them, go see a reproductive psychiatrist or go see an OB-GYN who can talk to you about the different options to really treat what’s coming up. Kimberley: Right. That’s helpful. I want to quickly just add on to that with your advice. I think what you’re saying is when we come from an anxiety treatment model, we are looking at exposure, but when it comes to someone who’s going through this real life, like their actual symptoms aren’t imagined, they’re there, it’s okay for them to modify to not be going to hot saunas and so forth that we know that they’re going to be triggered, but just to do the things that get them back to their daily functioning, but it is still okay for them. I think what I’m trying to say is it’s still okay for them to be doing some accommodation of the symptoms of perimenopause, but not accommodation of the anxiety. Is that where we draw the line? Dr. Katie: I think that’s a really good way of explaining it. DEPRESSION AND MENOPAUSE Kimberley: All right. The other piece of this is as important, which is how depression impacted here. Can you share a little bit how mood changes can be impacted by perimenopause?  Dr. Katie: Definitely. We know that there’s a significant increase in not only the onset of a new depression, but also recurrence of prior depressive episodes during perimenopause. It’s probably related to the changing levels of hormones, but also, I think what we’ve alluded to and what we have to acknowledge is there are big life changes that are happening around this time as well. I think cultural views of aging, I think a lot of times people have changes in their relationships, their partners. Their libido can change. There’s so many moving parts that they think that also contributes to it.  But specifically with regard to perimenopausal depression, we categorize this in the reproductive subtype of depression. At these different periods of hormonal transition, certain women are prone to have a depressive episode. We know that that’s true during normal cycling. For example, premenstrual dysphoric disorder or PMDD is a reproductive subtype of depression. People sometimes get depressed in those two weeks before their period and then feel fine during the week of their period or the week after. During the luteal phase, they experience depression. We know that that group of women also is at increased risk for perinatal depression, so depression during pregnancy and postpartum. And then that same group is also at risk for perimenopausal depression. What we know is that a subset of women is probably sensitive to normal levels of changing hormones, and that for them, it triggers a depressive episode.  One of the biggest risk factors for depression during perimenopause is a prior history of depression. Unfortunately, the way depression works is that once you have it, you’re more likely to have it in the future. For people who have had depression in their life or have specifically had depression around these times of hormonal transition, it’s probably just important to keep an eye on how they’re doing, make sure they have appropriate support, whether that’s from a therapist or a psychiatrist, and monitor themselves closely. Kimberley: Okay. This is really helpful to know. We know that people with anxiety tend to have depression as well. Have you found those who’ve had previous depression or previous anxiety also have coexisting in terms of having those panic attacks and depression at the same time? Dr. Katie: That’s interesting. I haven’t read any research on that. It wouldn’t surprise me. But I think at least for research purposes, they’re separating it. I think clinically, of course, we can see it being all mixed together. But for research, it’s depression or panic and they keep those separate. Kimberley: Right. One thing that just came to me in terms of just clarifying too is, I’m assuming a lot of people who have health anxiety are incredibly triggered during perimenopause as well, these symptoms that are unexplained but explained. But I’m wondering, is that also something that you commonly see in terms of they’re having these symptoms and questioning whether it means something serious is happening? Has that been something that you see a lot of? Dr. Katie: Definitely. I think the first time someone has a hot flash, it can be extremely distressing. It’s a very uncomfortable sensation. I think there are other changes that happen during perimenopause that, of course, I think, raise concern. We know that in addition to night sweats, people can just have general aches and pains. They can have headaches. Cognitive complaints can be very common during this time. Just this feeling of brain fog, not feeling as sharp as one used to be. They can have sleep disturbances, which can of course worsen the anxiety and the cognitive complaints, and the depression. I think there can be a myriad of symptoms. Other distressing symptoms, I’m not sure if they necessarily-- I think if you know what’s going on, it’s not quite as distressing, but there can be these urogenital symptoms, like vaginal dryness, vaginal burning. There can be recurrent UTIs, there can be difficulty with urination. There are this constellation of symptoms that I’m sure could trigger health anxiety in people, especially if they have preexisting health anxiety. WHAT TREATMENTS ARE AVAIALBLE TO HELP THOSE WHO ARE SUFFERING FROM MENOPAUSE (OR PERIMENOPAUSE) AND ANXIETY AND DEPRESSION?  Kimberley: Yeah, absolutely. Someone’s listened to this episode so they’re at least informed, which is wonderful. They start to see enough evidence that this may be what is going on for them. What would be the steps following that? Is it something that you just go through and like a fever, you just ride it out kind of thing? Or are there medications or treatments? What would you suggest someone do in the order as they go through it? Dr. Katie: I think it depends on what’s going on and how they’re experiencing it. If this is distressing, life interfering, if they’re having trouble functioning, they should absolutely seek treatment. I think there are a few different things they can do depending on what’s going on. For depression and anxiety, medications are the first line. Antidepressants would still be the first-line therapy there. There’s some evidence for menopausal hormone therapy, but there’s not really enough. There is evidence for menopausal hormone therapy, but it’s not currently first line for depression or anxiety. If someone had treatment-resistant depression that came up in the perimenopausal transition, I think it’s reasonable to consider menopausal hormone therapy. But currently, menopausal hormone therapy isn’t really recommended for that.  If someone is having distressing vasomotor symptoms with night sweats and recurrent hot flashes or hot flushes during the day, menopausal hormone therapy is a very good option. That is something to consider. They could go talk to their OB-GYN about it. Certain people will be candidates for it and other people might not. If you think it might be something you’re interested in, I recommend going and speaking to your OB-GYN sooner rather than later.  Antidepressants themselves can also help with vasomotor symptoms as well. They can specifically help with hot flashes and night sweats. If someone has depression and anxiety and hot flashes and night sweats, antidepressant can be a really good choice because it can help with both of those. There was a really interesting study that compared Lexapro to menopausal hormone therapy for hot flashes, for quality of life, for sleep, and for depression. Essentially, both of them helped sleep quality of life in vasomotor symptoms, but only the Lexapro helped the depression. It really just depends on what’s going on.  I think another thing that we’ve also talked about is therapy. This can be a big life transition. I think really no woman going through menopause is the same. Some people have toddlers. Some people have grown children who have just left their home. Some people are just starting their career. Some people are about to retire. Relationships can change. I think that it’s really important to take what’s going on in the context of a woman’s life. I think therapy can be really helpful to help them process and understand what they’re going through. Kimberley: Right. You had mentioned before, and I just wanted to touch on this, vaginal drying and stuff like that, which I’m sure, again, a reason for this series is just how much sexual intimacy and so forth can impact somebody’s satisfaction in life or functioning or in relationships. Is that something that is also treatable with these different treatment models or is there a different treatment for that?  Dr. Katie: With menopausal hormone therapy, when someone has hot flashes or these other symptoms that we were talking about, not the urogenital ones, they need to take systemic menopausal hormone therapy. They basically need estrogen and progesterone to go throughout their body. When someone is just having these urogenital symptoms, they can often use topical vaginal estrogen. It’s applied vaginally. That can be really helpful for those symptoms as well. I think if that’s something that someone is struggling with that they want treatment for, it’s very reasonable to go talk to their OB-GYN about it because there are therapies that can be-- Kimberley: Right, that’s like a cream or lotion kind of thing.  Dr. Katie: Exactly.  Kimberley: Interesting. Oh wow. All right. That is so helpful. We’ve talked about the medical piece, the medication piece. A lot of people also I see on social media mostly talk about these more-- I don’t want to use the word “natural” because I don’t like that word “natural.” I don’t even know what word I would use, but non-medical-- Dr. Katie: Like supplements or-- Kimberley: Yeah. I know it’s different for everyone and everyone listening should please seek a doctor for medical advice, but is that something that you talk about with patients or do you stick more just to the things that have been researched? What are your thoughts? Dr. Katie: I think that supplements can be helpful for some people. I don’t always find that they’re as effective as medications. If someone is really struggling on a day-to-day basis, I do think that using treatments that have more evidence behind them is better. I think that there are some supplements that have a little bit of evidence, but I do think that they come with their own risks. Because supplements aren’t regulated by the FDA and things like that, I don’t typically recommend them. I think if someone is interested in finding a more naturopathic doctor who might be able to talk to them about those things is reasonable.  Kimberley: Super helpful. Is there anything that you feel like we haven’t covered or that would be important for us to really drill home and make sure we point out here at the end before we finish up? Dr. Katie: I think we’ve covered a lot. I think that the most important thing that I really want to stress is this is a normal part of aging. This is not a disease; this is not a disease state. Also, there are treatments that can be so effective. You don’t have to struggle in silence. It is not something shameful. There are clinicians who are trained, who are able to help if these symptoms are coming up. Just not being afraid to go and talk about it and go reach out for help. I think that that can be so helpful and really life-changing for some people when they get the right treatment. Kimberley: Right. Thank you. Where can we hear about you, get in touch with you, maybe seek out your services? Dr. Katie: You can find me online. I have a website. It’s just www.drkatiemd.com. It’s D-R-K-A-T-I-E-M-D.com. You can follow me on Instagram on the same. If you’re interested to see more of my talks and lectures, I often post those on my LinkedIn page. You can follow me on LinkedIn. I think if you are personally interested in learning more about menopause, there’s a really great book by an OB-GYN, her name is Dr. Jen Gunter, and it’s called The Menopause Manifesto. For anybody who really wants to educate themselves about menopause and understand more about what’s going on in their body and their treatments, I really recommend that book. Kimberley: Amazing. That’s so good to have that resource as well. Thank you. I’m really, really honored. I know you’re doing so many amazing things and running so many amazing programs. I’m so grateful for your time and your expertise on this. Dr. Katie: Of course. I’m so glad that you’re doing a podcast on this. I think this is a topic that we really need more information and education out there. Kimberley: Yeah. Thank you.

Welcome. This is Week 4 of the Sexual Health and Anxiety Series. I have loved your feedback about this so far. I have loved hearing what is right for you, what is not right for you, getting your perspective on what can be so helpful. A lot of people are saying that they really are grateful that we are covering sexual health and anxiety because it’s a topic that we really don’t talk enough about. I think there’s so much shame in it, and I think that that’s something we hopefully can break through today by bringing it into the sunlight and bringing it out into the open and just talking about it as it is, which is just all good and all neutral, and we don’t need to judge. Let’s go through the series so far. In Episode 1 of the series, we did sexual anxiety or sexual performance anxiety with Lauren Fogel Mersy. Number two, we did understanding arousal and anxiety. A lot of you loved that episode, talking a lot about understanding arousal and anxiety. Then last week, we talked about the sexual side effects of anxiety and depression medication or antidepressants with Dr. Sepehr Aziz. That was such a great episode. This week, we’re talking about sexual intrusive thoughts.  The way that I structured this is I wanted to first address the common concerns people have about sexual health and intimacy and so forth. Now I want to talk about some of the medical pieces and the human pieces that can really complicate things. In this case, it’s your thoughts. The thoughts we have can make a huge impact on how we see ourselves, how we judge ourselves, the meaning we make of it, the identity we give it, and it can be incredibly distressing. My hope today is just to go through and normalize all of these experiences and thoughts and presentations and give you some direction on where you can go from there. Because we do know that your thoughts, as we discussed in the second episode, can impact arousal and your thoughts can impact your sexual anxiety.  SEXUAL OCD OBSESSIONS Let’s talk a little bit today about specific sexual intrusive thoughts. Now, sexual intrusive thoughts is also known as sexual obsessions. A sexual obsession is like any other obsession, which is, it is a repetitive, UNWANTED—and let’s emphasize the unwanted piece—sexual thought. There are all different kinds of sexual intrusive thoughts that you can have. For many of you listening, you may have sexual intrusive thoughts and OCD that get together and make a really big mess in your mind and confuse you and bring on doubt and uncertainty, and like I said before, make you question your identity and all of those things.  In addition to these intrusive thoughts, they often can feel very real. Often when people have these sexual intrusive thoughts, again, we all have intrusive thoughts, but if they’re sexual in nature, when they’re accompanied by anxiety, they can sometimes feel incredibly real, so much so that you start to question everything.  SEXUAL SENSATIONS Now, in addition to having sexual intrusive thoughts, some of you have sexual sensations, and we talked a little bit about this in previous episodes. But what I’m really speaking about there is sensations that you would often feel upon arousal. The most common is what we call in the OCD field a groinal response. Some people call it the groinal in and of itself, which is, we know again from previous episodes that when we have sexual thoughts or thoughts that are sexual in nature, we often will feel certain sensations of arousal, whether that be lubrication, swelling, tingling, throbbing. You might simply call it arousal or being turned on. And that is where a lot of people, again, get really confused because they’re having these thoughts that they hate, they’re unwanted, they’re repetitive, they’re impacting their life, they’re associated with a lot of anxiety and uncertainty, and doubt. And then, now you’re having this reaction in your body too, and that groinal response can create a heightened need to engage in compulsions.  As we know—we talk about this in ERP School, our online course for OCD; we go through this extensively—when someone has an obsession, a thought, an intrusive thought, it creates uncertainty and anxiety. And then naturally what we do is we engage in a compulsion to reduce or remove that discomfort to give them a short-term sense of relief. But then what ends up happening is that short-term relief ends up reinforcing the original obsession, which means you have it more, and then you go back through the cycle. You cycle on that cycle over and over again. It gets so big. It ends up impacting your life so, so much. INTRUSIVE SEXUAL URGES Now, let’s also address while we’re here that a lot of you may have intrusive sexual urges. These are also obsessions that we have when you have OCD or OCD-related disorders where you feel like your body is pulling you towards an action to harm someone, to do a sexual act, to some fantasy. You’re having this urge that feels like your body is pulling you like a magnet towards that behavior. Even if you don’t want to do that behavior, or even if that behavior disgusts you and it doesn’t line up with your values, you may still experience these sexual OCD urges that really make you feel like you’re on the cusp of losing control, that you may snap and do that behavior. This is how impactful these sexual intrusive thoughts can be. This is how powerful they can be in that they can create these layers upon layers. You have the thoughts, then you have the feelings, then you have the sensations, you also have the urges. Often there’s a lot of sexual intrusive images as well, like you see in front of you, like a projector, the image happening or the movie scene playing out that really scares you, concerns you, and so forth. And then all of those layers together make you feel absolutely horrible, terrified, so afraid, so unsure of what’s happening in and of yourself.  TYPES OF SEXUAL OCD OBSESSIONS Let’s talk about some specific OCD obsessions and ways in which this plays out. Now, in the OCD field, we call them subtypes. Subtypes are different categories we have of obsessions. They don’t collect all of them. There are people who have a lot of obsessions that don’t fall under these categories, but these subtypes usually include groups of people who experience these subtypes. The reason we do that is, number one, it can be very validating to know that other people are in that subgroup. Number two, it can also really help inform treatment when we have a specific subtype that we know what’s happening, and that can be very helpful and reduce the shame of the person experiencing them.  1. SEXUAL ORIENTATION OBSESSIONS OR SEXUAL ORIENTATION OCD It used to be called homosexual OCD. That was because predominantly people who were heterosexual were reporting having thoughts or sexual intrusive thoughts about their sexual orientation—am I gay, am I straight—and really struggling with having certainty about this. Again, now that we’re more inclusive and that I think a lot more people are talking about sexuality, that we have a lot less shame, a lot more education, we scrapped the homosexual OCD or homosexual obsessions or subtype category. Now we have a more inclusive category, which is called sexual orientation OCD. That can include any body of any sexual orientation who has doubt and uncertainty about that.  Now remember when we started, we talked about the fact that sexual intrusive thoughts are usually unwanted, they’re repetitive and they don’t line up with our values. What we are not talking about here is someone who is actually questioning their sexual orientation. I know a lot of people are. They’re really exploring and being curious about different orientations that appeal to them. That’s way different to the people who have sexual orientation OCD or sexual orientation obsessions. People with OCD are absolutely terrified of this unknown answer, and they feel an incredible sense of urgency to solve it.  If you experience this, you may actually want to listen back. We’ve got a couple of episodes on this in the past. But it’s really important to understand and we have to understand the nuance here that as you’re doing treatment, we are very careful not to just sweep people under the rug and say, “This is your OCD,” because we want to be informed in knowing that, okay, you also do get to question your sexual orientation. But if it is a presentation of sexual orientation OCD, we will treat it like that and we will be very specific in reducing the compulsions that you’re engaging in so that you can get some relief. That is the first one.  2. SEXUAL INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS ABOUT FAMILY OR SEXUAL INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS ABOUT INCEST Incest sexual OCD or that type of subtype is another very common one. But often, again, one that is not talked about enough in fear of being judged, in fear of having too much shame, in fear of being reported. When people have these types of obsessions, they often will have a thought like, “What if I’m attracted to my dad?” Or maybe they’re with their sibling and they experience some arousal for reasons they don’t know. Again, we talked about this in the arousal and anxiety episode, so go back and listen to that if you didn’t. They may experience that, and that is where they will often say, “My brain broke. I feel like I had to solve that answer. I had to figure it out. I need to get complete certainty that that is not the case, and I need to know for sure.”  The important thing to remember here is a lot of my patients, I will see and they may have some of these sexual intrusive thoughts, but their partners will say, “Yeah, I’ve had the same thoughts.” It’s just that for the person without OCD, they don’t experience that same degree of distress. They blow it off. It doesn’t really land in their brain. It’s just like a fleeting thought. Whereas people with OCD, it’s like the record got stuck and it’s just repeating, repeating, repeating. The distress gets higher. The doubt and uncertainty get higher. Therefore, because of all of this bubbling kettle happening, there’s this really strong urgency to relieve it with compulsions.  3. SEXUAL INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS ABOUT GOD OR ABOUT A RELIGIOUS LEADER This is one that’s less common, or should I say less commonly reported. We actually don’t have evidence of how common it is. I think a lot of people have so much shame and are so afraid of sinning and what that means that they may even not report it. But again, this is no different to having thoughts of incest, but this one is particularly focused on having sexual thoughts about God and needing to know what that means and trying to cleanse themselves of their perceived sin, of having that intrusive thought. It can make them question their religion. It can make them feel like they have to stop going to church. They may do a ton of compulsive prayer. They may do a ton of reassurance with certain religious leaders to make sure that they’re not sinning or to relieve them of that uncertainty and that distaste and distress. These are all very common symptoms of people who have sexual intrusive thoughts about God. 4. BESTIALITY OBSESSIONS These are thoughts about pets and animals, and it’s very common. It’s funny, as we speak, I am recording this with a three-pound puppy sitting on my lap. We just got a three-pound puppy. It is a Malti-Poo puppy dog, and he’s the cutest thing you’ve ever seen. But it’s true that when you have a dog, you’re having to take care of its genitals and wipe it up and its feces and its urine and clean and all the things, and it’s common to have sexual intrusive thoughts about your pet or about your dog or your cat. Some people, again, with bestiality obsessions or bestiality OCD, have a tremendous repetitive degree of these thoughts. They’re very distressing because they love their dog. They would never do anything to hurt their dog, but they can’t stop having these thoughts or these feelings or these sensations, or even these urges. Again, all these presentations are the same, it’s just that the content is different. We treat them the same when we’re discussing it, but we’re very careful with addressing the high level of shame and embarrassment, humiliation, guilt that they have for these thoughts. Guilt is a huge one with these sexual obsessions. People often feel incredibly guilty as if they’ve done something wrong for having these obsessions. These are a few.  5. PEDOPHILIA OBSESSIONS Now, for someone who has intrusive sexual thoughts and feelings and sensations and urges about children (POCD), they tend to be, in my experience, the most distressed. They tend to be, when I see them, the ones who come in absolutely completely taken over with guilt and shame. A lot of the time, they will have completely removed themselves from their child. They feel they’re not responsible. They won’t go near the parks. They won’t go to family’s birthday parties. They’re so insistent on trying to never have these thoughts. Again, I understand. I don’t blame them. But as we know, the more you try not to have a thought, what happens? The more you have it. The more you try and suppress a thought, the more you have it. That can get people in a very stuck cycle.  SEXUAL OCD  COMPULSIONS Let’s move on now to really address different sexual OCD compulsions.  Now, for all sexual obsessions, or what I should say is, for all obsessions in general, there are specific categories of compulsions and these are things again that we do to reduce or remove the discomfort and certainty, dread, doubt, and so forth.  1. Trigger Avoidance This is where you avoid the thing that may trigger your obsession or thought. Avoiding your dog, avoiding your child, avoiding your family member, avoiding people of the sexual orientation that you’re having uncertainty about.  2. Actual Sex Avoidance We talked about that in the first episode. We talked a lot about how people avoid sex because of the anxiety that being intimate and sexual causes.  3. Mental Rumination This is a really common one for sexual intrusive thoughts because you just want to solve like why am I having it? What does it mean? You might be ruminating, what could that mean? And going over and over and over that a many, many time.  4. Mental Checking What you can also be doing here is checking for arousal. Next time you’re around, let’s say, a dog and you have bestiality obsessions, you might check to see if you’re aroused. But just checking to see if you’re aroused means that you get aroused. Now that you’re aroused, you’re now checking to see what that means and trying to figure that out and you’re very distressed.  We can see how often the compulsion that the person does actually triggers more and more and more distress. It may provide you a moment or a fleeting moment of relief, but then you actually have more distress. It usually brings on more uncertainty. We know that the more we try and control life, the more out of control we feel. That’s a general rule. That’s very much the case for these types of obsessive thoughts.  5. Pornography Use A lot of people who have sexual orientation OCD in particular, but any of these, they may actually use pornography as a way to get reassurance that they are of a certain sexual orientation, that they are not attracted to the orientation that they’re having uncertainty about, or they’re not attracted to animals or God or a family member because they were aroused watching pornography. That becomes a form of self-reassurance.  There’s two types of reassurance. One is reassurance where we go to somebody else and say, “Are you sure I wouldn’t do that thing? Are you sure that thing isn’t true? Are you sure I don’t have that? I’m not that bad a person?” The other one is really giving reassurance to yourself, and that’s a very common one with pornography use.  SEXUAL INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS PTSD  There are some sexual intrusive thought examples, including specific obsessions and subtypes, and also compulsions. But one sexual intrusive thought example I also wanted to address is not OCD-related; it’s actually related to a different diagnosis, which is called PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder). Often for people who have been sexually assaulted or molested, they too may experience sexual intrusive thoughts in the form of memories or images of what happened to them or what could have happened to them. Maybe it’s often some version of what happened to them, and that is a common presentation for PTSD. If you are experiencing PTSD, usually, there is a traumatic event that is related to the obsession or the thoughts. They usually are in association or accompanied by flashbacks. There are many other symptoms. I’m not a PTSD specialist, but there’s a high level of distress, many nightmares. You may have flashbacks, as I’ve said. Panic is a huge part of PTSD as well. That is common. If you have had a traumatic event, I would go and see a specialist and help them to make sure that they’ve diagnosed you correctly so that you can get the correct care.  SEXUAL INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS TREATMENT If you have OCD and you’re having some of these sexual intrusive thoughts, the best treatment for you to go and get immediately is Exposure and Response Prevention. This is a particular type of cognitive behavioral therapy where you can learn to change your reaction, break yourself out of that cycle of obsessions, anxiety, compulsions, and then feed yourself back into the loop around and around. You can break that cycle and return back to doing the things you want and have a different reaction to the thoughts that you have. PEOPLE ASK HOW TO STOP SEXUAL INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS?  Often people will come to me and say, “How do I stop these sexual intrusive thoughts?” I will quickly say to them, “You don’t. The more you try and stop them, the more you’re going to have. But what we can do is we can act very skillfully in intervening, not by preventing the thoughts, but by changing how we relate and respond to those thoughts.” For those of you who don’t know, I have a whole course on this called ERP School. ERP is for Exposure and Response Prevention. I’ll show you how you can do this on your own, or you can reach out to me and we can talk about whether if you’re in the states where we’re licensed, one of my associates can help you one-on-one. If you’re not in a state where I belong, reach out to the IOCDF and see if you can find someone who treats OCD using ERP in your area. Because the truth is, you don’t have to suffer having these thoughts. There is a treatment to help you manage these thoughts and help you be much more comfortable in response to those thoughts. Of course, the truth here is you’re never going to like them. Nobody likes these thoughts. The goal isn’t to like them. The goal isn’t to make them go away. The goal isn’t to prove them wrong even; it’s just to change your reaction to one that doesn’t keep that cycle going. That is the key component when it comes to sexual intrusive thoughts treatment or OCD treatment. That’s true for any subtype of OCD because there are many other subtypes as well.  That’s it, guys. I could go on and on and on and on about this, but I want to be respectful of your time. The main goal again is just to normalize that these thoughts happen. For some people, it happens more than others. The goal, if you can take one thing away from today, it would be, try not to assign meaning to the duration and frequency of which you have these thoughts. Often people will say, “I have them all day. That has to mean something.” I’m here to say, “Let’s not assign meaning to these thoughts at all. Thoughts are thoughts. They come and they go. They don’t have meaning and we want to practice not assigning meaning to them so we don’t strengthen that cycle.”  I hope that was helpful for you guys. I know it was a ton of information. I hope it was super, super helpful. I am so excited to continue with this.  Next week, we are talking about menopause and anxiety, which we have an amazing doctor again. I want to talk about things with people who are really skilled in this area. We have a medical doctor coming on talking about menopause and the impact of anxiety. And then we’re going to talk about PMS and anxiety, and that will hopefully conclude our sexual health and anxiety series.  Thank you so much for being here. I love you guys so much. Thank you from me and from Theo, our beautiful little baby puppy. I will see you next week.

Hello and welcome back everybody. We are on Week 3 of the Sexual Health and Anxiety Series. At first, we talked with the amazing Lauren Fogel Mersy about sexual anxiety or sexual performance anxiety. And then last week, I went into depth about really understanding arousal and anxiety, how certain things will increase arousal, certain things will decrease it, and teaching you how to get to know what is what so that you can have a rich, intimate, fulfilling life.  We are now on Week 3. I have to admit, this is an episode that I so have wanted to do for quite a while, mainly because I get asked these questions so often and I actually don’t know the answers. It’s actually out of my scope. In clinical terms, we call it “out of my scope of practice,” meaning the topic we’re talking about today is out of my skill set. It’s out of my pay grade. It’s out of my level of training.  What we’re talking about this week is the sexual side effects of antidepressants or anxiety medications, the common ones that people have when they are anxious or depressed. Now, as I said to you, this is a medical topic, one in which I am not trained to talk about, so I invited Dr. Sepehr Aziz onto the episode, and he does such a beautiful job, a respectful, kind, compassionate approach to addressing sexual side effects of anxiety medication, sexual side effects of depression medication. It’s just beautiful. It’s just so beautiful. I feel like I want to almost hand this episode off to every patient when I first start treating them, because I think so often when we’re either on medication or we’re considering medication, this is a really common concern, one in which people often aren’t game to discuss. So, here we are. I’m actually going to leave it right to the doctor, leave it to the pro to talk all about sexual side effects and what you can do, and how you may discuss this with your medical provider. Let’s do it. Kimberley: Welcome. I have been wanting to do this interview for so long. I am so excited to have with us Dr. Sepehr Aziz. Thank you so much for being here with us today. Dr. Aziz: Thanks for having me. Kimberley: Okay. I have so many questions we’re going to get through as much as we can. Before we get started, just tell us a little about you and your background, and tell us what you want to tell us. Dr. Aziz: Sure. Again, I’m Dr. Sepehr Aziz. I go by “Shepherd,” so you can go ahead and call me Shep if you’d like. I’m a psychiatrist. I’m board certified in general adult psychiatry as well as child and adolescent psychiatry by the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology. I completed medical school and did my residency in UMass where they originally developed mindfulness-based CBT and MBSR. And then I completed my Child and Adolescent training at UCSF. I’ve been working since then at USC as a Clinical Assistant Professor of Psychiatry there. I see a lot of OCD patients. I do specialize in anxiety disorders and ADHD as well. Kimberley: Which is why you’re the perfect person for this job today. Dr. Aziz: Thank you.  WHAT ARE THE BEST MEDICATIONS FOR PEOPLE WITH ANXIETY & OCD (IN GENERAL)? Kimberley: I thank you so much for being here. I want to get straight into the big questions that I get asked so regularly and I don’t feel qualified to answer myself. What are the best medications for people with anxiety and OCD? Is there a general go-to? Can you give me some explanation on that? Dr. Aziz: As part of my practice, I first and foremost always try to let patients know that the best treatment is always a combination of therapy as well as medications. It’s really important to pursue therapy because medications can treat things and they can make it easier to tolerate your anxiety, but ultimately, in order to have sustained change, you really want to have therapy as well. Now, the first-line medications for anxiety and OCD are the same, and that’s SSRIs or selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. SNRIs, which are selective norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors, also work generally, but the best research that we have in the literature is on SSRIs, and that’s why they’re usually preferred first. There are other medications that also might work, but these are usually first-line, as we call it. There are no specific SSRIs that might work better. We’ve tried some head-to-head trials sometimes, but there’s no one medication that works better than others. It’s just tailored depending on the patient and the different side effects of the medication. SSRI’S VS ANTIDEPRESSANTS DEFINITION Kimberley: Right. Just so people are clear in SSRI, a lot of people, and I notice, use the term antidepressant. Are they synonymous or are they different? Dr. Aziz: Originally, they were called antidepressants when they first were released because that was the indication. There was an epidemic of depression and we were really badly looking for medications that would work. Started out with tricyclic antidepressants and then we had MAOIs, and then eventually, we developed SSRIs. These all fall under antidepressant treatments. However, later on, we realized that they work very well for anxiety in addition to depression. Actually, in my opinion, they work better for anxiety than they do for depression. I generally shy away from referring to them as antidepressants just to reduce the stigma around them a little bit and also to be more accurate in the way that I talk about them. But yes, they’re synonymous, you could say.  BEST MEDICATION FOR DEPRESSION Kimberley: Sure. Thank you for clearing that up because that’s a question I often get. I know I led you in a direction away but you answered. What is the best medication for people with depression then? Is it those SSRIs or would you go-- Dr. Aziz: Again, these are first-line medications, which means it’s the first medication we would try if we’re starting medication, which is SSRIs. Other medications might also work like SNRIs again. For depression specifically, there are medications called serotonin modulators that are also effective such as vortioxetine or nefazodone, or vilazodone. But SSRIs are generally what people reach for first just because they’ve been around for a long time, they’re available generic, they work, and there’s no evidence that the newer medications or modulators work better. They’re usually first line. Kimberley: Fantastic. Now you brought up the term “generic” and I think that that’s an important topic because the cost of therapy is high. A lot of people may be wondering, is the generic as good as the non-generic options? Dr. Aziz: It really depends on the medication and it also depends on which country you’re in. In the US, we have pretty strict laws as to how closely a generic has to be to a regular medication, a brand name medication, and there’s a margin of error that they allow. The margin of error for generics is, I believe, a little bit higher than for the brand name. However, most of the time, it’s pretty close. For something like Lexapro, I usually don’t have any pressure on myself to prescribe the brand name over the generic. For something like other medications we use in psychiatry that might have a specific way that the brand name is released, a non-anxiety example is Concerta, which is for ADHD. This medication uses an osmotic release mechanism and that’s proprietary. They license it out to one generic company, but that license is expiring. All those patients who are on that generic in the next month or two are going to notice a difference in the way that the medication is released. Unless you’re a physician privy to that information, you might not even know that that’s going to happen. That’s where you see a big change. Otherwise, for most of the antidepressants, I haven’t noticed a big difference between generic and brand names.   Kimberley: Right. Super helpful. Now you mentioned it depends on the person. How might one decide or who does decide what medication they would go on? Dr. Aziz: It’s really something that needs to be discussed between the person and their psychiatrist. There are a number of variables that go into that, such as what’s worked in a family member in the past, because there are genetic factors in hepatic metabolism and things like that that give us some clue as to what might work. Or sometimes if I have a patient with co-occurring ADHD and I know they’re going to be missing their medications a lot, I’m more likely to prescribe them Prozac because it has a longer half-life, so it’ll last longer. If they miss a dose or two, it’s not as big of a deal. If I have a patient who’s very nervous about getting off of the medication when they get pregnant, I would avoid Prozac because it has a long half-life and it would take longer to come off of the medication. Some medications like Prozac and Zoloft are more likely to cause insomnia or agitation in younger people, so I’ll take that into consideration. Some medications have a higher likelihood of causing weight loss versus weight gain. These are all things that would take into consideration in order to tailor it to the specific patient. Kimberley: Right. I think that’s been my experience too. They will usually ask, do you have a sibling or a parent that tried a certain medication, and was that helpful? I love that question. I think it informs a lot of decisions. We’re here really. The main goal of today is really to talk about one particular set of side effects, which is the sexual side effects of medication. In fact, I think most commonly with clients of mine, that tends to be the first thing they’re afraid of having to happen. How common are sexual side effects? Is it in fact all hype or is it something that is actually a concern? How would you explain the prevalence of the side effects? Dr. Aziz: This is a really important topic, I just want to say, because it is something that I feel is neglected when patients are talking to physicians, and that’s just because it can be uncomfortable to talk about these things sometimes, both for physicians and for patients. Oftentimes, it’s avoided almost. But because of that, we don’t know for sure exactly what the incidence rate is. The literature on this and the research on this is not very accurate for a number of reasons. There are limitations. The range is somewhere between 15 to 80% and the best estimate is about 50%. But I don’t even like saying that because it really depends on age, gender, what other co-occurring disorders they have such as depression. Unipolar depression can also cause sexual dysfunction. They don’t always take that into account in these studies. A lot of the studies don’t ask baseline sexual function before asking if there’s dysfunction after starting a medication, so it’s hard to tell. What I can say for sure, and this is what I tell my patients, is that this sexual dysfunction is the number one reason why people stop taking the medication, because of adverse effects.  WHAT MEDICATIONS ARE MORE PRONE TO SEXUAL SIDE EFFECTS?  Kimberley: Right. It’s interesting you say that we actually don’t know, and it is true. I’ve had clients say having anxiety has sexual side effects too, having depression has sexual side effects too, and they’re weighing the pros and cons of going on medication comparative to when you’re depressed, you may not have any sexual drive as well. Are some medications more prone to these sexual side effects? Does that help inform your decision on what you prescribe because of certain meds? Dr. Aziz: Yeah. I mean, the SSRIs specifically are the ones that are most likely to cause sexual side effects. Technically, it’s the tricyclics, but no one really prescribes those in high doses anymore. It’s very rare. They’re the number one. But in terms of the more commonly prescribed antidepressants and anti-anxiety medications among the SSRIs and the SNRIs and the things like bupropion and the serotonin modulators we talked about, the SSRIs are most likely to cause sexual dysfunction. Kimberley: Right. Forgive me for my lack of knowledge here, I just want to make sure I’m understanding this. What about the medications like Xanax and the more panic-related medications? Is that underneath this category? Can you just explain that to me? Dr. Aziz: I don’t usually include those in this category. Those medications work for anxiety technically, but in current standard practice, we don’t start them as an initial medication for anxiety disorders because there’s a physical dependency that can occur and then it becomes hard to come off of the medication. They’re used more for panic as an episodic abortive medication when someone is in the middle of a panic attack, or in certain cases of anxiety that’s not responding well to more conventional treatment, we’ll start it. We’ll start it on top of or instead of those medications. They can cause sexual side effects, but it’s not the same and it’s much less likely.  SEXUAL SIDE EFFECTS OF MEDICATION FOR MEN VS WOMEN  Kimberley: Okay. Very helpful. Is it the same? I know you said we don’t have a lot of data, and I think that’s true because of the stigma around reporting sexual side effects, or even just talking about sex in general. Do we have any data on whether it impacts men more than women? Dr. Aziz: The data shows that women report more sexual side effects, but we believe that’s because women are more likely to be treated with SSRIs. When we’re looking at the per capita, we don’t have good numbers in terms of that. In my own practice, I’d say it’s pretty equal. I feel like men might complain about it more, but again, I’m a man and so it might just be a comfort thing of reporting it to me versus not reporting. Although I try to be good about asking before and after I start medication, which is very important to do. But again, it doesn’t happen all the time. Kimberley: Yeah, it’s interesting, isn’t it? Because from my experience as a clinician, not a psychiatrist, and this is very anecdotal, I’ve heard men because of not the stigma, but the pressure to have a full erection and to be very hard, that there’s a certain masculinity that’s very much vulnerable when they have sexual side effects—I’ve heard that to be very distressing. In my experience. I’ve had women be really disappointed in the sexual side effects, but I didn’t feel that... I mean, that’s not really entirely true because I think there’s shame on both ends. Do you notice that the expectations on gender impacts how much people report or the distress that they have about the sexual side effects?  Dr. Aziz: Definitely. I think, like you said, men feel more shame when it comes to sexual side effects. For women, it’s more annoyance. We haven’t really talked about what the sexual side effects are, but that also differs between the sexes. Something that’s the same between sexes, it takes longer to achieve orgasm or climax. In some cases, you can’t. For men, it can cause erectile dysfunction or low libido. For women, it can also cause low libido or lack of lubrication, which can also lead to pain on penetration or pain when you’re having sex. These are differences between the sexes that can cause different reporting and different feelings, really. Kimberley: Right. That’s interesting that it’s showing up in that. It really sounds like it impacts all the areas of sexual playfulness and sexual activity, the arousal, the lubrication. That’s true for men too, by the sounds of it. Is that correct?  Dr. Aziz: Yeah.  Kimberley: We’ve already done one episode about the sexual performance anxiety, and I’m sure it probably adds to performance anxiety when that’s not going well as well, correct? Dr. Aziz: It’s interesting because in my practice, when I identify that someone is having sexual performance anxiety or I feel like somebody, especially people with anxiety disorders, if I feel like they have vulvodynia, which means pain on penetration—if I see they have vulvodynia and I feel that this is because of the anxiety, oftentimes the SSRI might improve that and cause greater satisfaction from sex. It’s a double-edged sword here. COMMON SEXUAL SIDE EFFECTS OF ANTIDEPRESSANTS Kimberley: Yeah. Can you tell me a little more about What symptoms are they having? The pain? What was it called again? Dr. Aziz: Vulvodynia. Kimberley: Is that for men and women? Just for women, I’m assuming. Dr. Aziz: Just from vulva, it is referring to the outside of the female genitalia. Especially when you have a lack of lubrication or sometimes the muscles, everyone with anxiety knows sometimes you have muscle tension and there are a lot of complex muscles in the pelvic floor. Sometimes this can cause pain when you’re having sex. There are different ways to address that, but SSRIs sometimes can improve that.  Kimberley: Wow. It can improve it, and sometimes it can create a side effect as well, and it’s just a matter of trial and error, would you say? Dr. Aziz: It’s a delicate balance because these side effects are also dose-dependent. It’s not like black or white. I start someone on 5 milligrams, which is a child’s dose of Lexapro. Either they have sexual side effects or don’t. They might not have it on 5, and then they might have it a little bit on 10, and then they get to 20 and they’re like, “Doctor, I can’t have orgasms anymore.” We try to find the balance between improving the anxiety and avoiding side effects. SEXUAL SIDE EFFECTS TREATMENT Kimberley: You’re going right into the big question, which is, when someone does have side effects, is it the first line of response to look at the dose? Or how would you handle a case if someone came to you first and said, “I’m having sexual side effects, what can we do?”  Dr. Aziz: Again, I’m really thorough personally. Before I even seem to start a medication, I’ll ask about libido and erectile dysfunction and ability to climax and things like that, so I have a baseline. That’s important when you are thinking about making a change to someone’s medications. The other thing that’s important is, is the medication working for them? If they haven’t seen a big difference since they started the medication, I might change the medication. If they’ve seen an improvement, now there’s a pressure on me to keep the medication on because it’s working and helping. I might augment it with a second medication that’ll help reverse the sexual side effects or I might think about reducing the dose a little bit while maintaining somewhere in the therapeutic zone of doses or I might recommend, and I always recommend non-pharmacological ways of addressing sexual side effects. You always do that at baseline. Kimberley: What would that be? Dr. Aziz: There’s watchful waiting. Sometimes if you just wait and give it some time, these symptoms can get better. I’m a little more active than that. I’ll say it’s not just waiting, but it’s waiting and practicing, whether that’s solo practice or with your partner. Sometimes planning sex helps, especially if you have low libido. There’s something about the anticipation that can make someone more excited. The use of different aids for sex such as toys, vibrators, or pornography, whether that’s pornographic novels or imagery, can sometimes help with the libido issues and also improve satisfaction for both partners. The other thing which doesn’t have great research, but there is a small research study on this, and not a lot of people know about this, but if you exercise about an hour before sex, you’re more likely to achieve climax. This was specifically studied in people with SSRI-related anorgasmia. Kimberley: Interesting. I’m assuming too, like lubricants, oils, and things like that as well, or? Dr. Aziz: For lubrication issues, yes. Lubricants, oils, and again, you really have to give people psychoeducation on which ones they have to use, which ones they have to avoid, which ones interact with condoms, and which ones don’t. But you would recommend those as well. Kimberley: Is it a normal practice to also refer for sex therapy? If the medication is helping their symptoms, depression, anxiety, OCD, would you ever refer to sex therapy to help with that? Is that a standard practice or is that for specific diagnoses, like you said, with the pain around the vulva and so forth? Dr. Aziz: Absolutely. A lot of the things I just talked about are part of sex therapy and they’re part of the sexual education that you would receive when you go to a sex therapist. I happen to be comfortable talking about these things, and I’ve experienced talking about it. When I write my notes, that would fall under me doing therapy. But a lot of psychiatrists would refer to a sex therapist. Hopefully, there are some in the town nearby where someone is. It’s sometimes hard to find someone that specializes in that. Kimberley: Is there some pushback with that? I mean, I know when I’ve had patients and they’re having some sexual dysfunction and they do have some pushback that they feel a lot of shame around using vibrators or toys. Do you notice a more willingness to try that because they want to stay on the meds? Or is it still very difficult for them to consider trying these additional things? Are they more likely to just say, “No, the meds are the problem, I want to go off the medication”? Dr. Aziz: It really depends on the patient. In my population that I see, I work at USC on campus, so I only see university students in my USC practice. My age group is like 18 to 40. Generally, people are pretty receptive. Obviously, it’s very delicate to speak to some people who have undergone sexual trauma in the past. Again, since I’m a man, sometimes speaking to a woman who’s had sexual trauma can be triggering. It’s a very delicate way that you have to speak and sometimes there’s some pushback or resistance. It can really be bad for the patient because they’re having a problem and they’re uncomfortable talking about it. There might be a shortage of female psychiatrists for me to refer to. We see that. There’s also a portion of the population that’s just generally uncomfortable with this, especially people who are more religious might be uncomfortable talking about this and you have to approach that from a certain angle. I happen to also be specialized in cultural psychiatry, so I deal with these things a lot, approaching things from a very specific cultural approach, culturally informative approach. Definitely, you see resistance in many populations. Kimberley: I think that that’s so true. One thing I want to ask you, which I probably should have asked you before, is what would you say to the person who wants to try meds but is afraid of the potential of side effects? Is there a certain spiel or way in which you educate them to help them understand the risks or the benefits? How do you go about that for those who there’s no sexual side effects, they’re just afraid of the possibility? Dr. Aziz: As part of my practice, I give as much informed consent to my patients as I can. I let them know what might happen and how that’s going to look afterwards. Once it happens, what would we do about it if it happened? A lot of times, especially patients with anxiety, you catastrophize and you feel this fear of some potential bad thing happening, and you never go past that. You never ask yourself, okay, well now let’s imagine that happens. What happens next? I tell my patients, “Yeah, you might have sexual dysfunction, but if that happens, we can reduce the medications or stop them and they’ll go away.” I also have to tell my patients that if they search the internet, there are many people who have sexual side effects, which didn’t go away, and who are very upset about it. This is something that is talked about on Reddit, on Twitter. When my patients go to Dr. Google and do their research, they often get really scared. “Doctor, what if this happens and it doesn’t go away?” I always try to explain to them, I have hundreds of patients that I’ve treated with these medications. In my practice, that’s never happened. As far as I know from the literature, there are no studies that show that there are permanent dysfunctions sexually because of SSRIs.  Now, like I said, the research is not complete, but everything that I’ve read has been anecdotal. My feeling is that if you address these things in the beginning and you’re diligent in asking about the side effects of baseline sexual function beforehand and you are comfortable talking with your patients about it, you can avoid this completely. That’s been my experience. When I explain that to my patients, they feel like I have their back, like they’re protected, like I’m not just going to let them fall through the cracks. That has worked for me very well. Kimberley: Right. It sounds like you give them some hope too, that this can be a positive experience, that this could be a great next step. Dr. Aziz: Yeah, absolutely. Kimberley: Thank you for bringing up Dr. Google, because referring to Reddit for anything psychologically related is not a great idea, I will say. Definitely, when it comes to medications, I think another thing that I see a lot that’s interesting on social media is I often will get dozens of questions saying, “I heard such and such works. Have your clients taken this medication? I heard this medication doesn’t work. What’s your experience?” Or if I’ve told them about my own personal experience, they want to know all about it because that will help inform their decision. Would you agree, do not get your information from social media or online at all? Dr. Aziz: I have patients who come to me and they’re like, “My friend took Lexapro and said it was the worst thing in the world, and it may or not feel any emotions.” I’m explaining to them, I literally have hundreds of patients, hundreds that I prescribe this to, and I go up and down on the dose. I talk to them about their intimate lives all day. But for some reason, and it makes sense, the word of their friend or someone close to them, really, carries a lot of weight. Also, I don’t want to discount Reddit either, because I feel like it’s as a support system and as a support group. I find other people who have gone through what you’ve gone through. It’s very strong. Even pages like-- I don’t want to say the page, but there’s a page that’s against psychiatry, and I peruse this page a lot because I have my own qualms about psychiatry sometimes. I know the pharmaceutical companies have a certain pressure on themselves financially, and I know hospitals have a certain pressure on themselves. I get it. I go on the page and there’s a lot of people who have been hurt in the past, and it’s useful for patients to see other people who share that feeling and to get support. But at the same time, it’s important to find providers that you can trust and to have strong critical thinking skills, and be able to advocate for yourself while still listening to somebody who might have more information than you. Kimberley: I’m so grateful you mentioned that. I do think that that is true. I think it’s also what I try to remember when I am online. The people who haven’t had a bad experience aren’t posting on Reddit. They’re out having a great time because it helped, the medication helped them, and they just want to move on. I really respect those who have a bad experience. They feel the need to educate. But I don’t think it’s that 50% who gave a great experience are on Reddit either. Would you agree? Dr. Aziz: Right. Yeah. The people who are having great outcomes are not creating a Reddit page to go talk about it, right? Kimberley: Yeah. Thank you so much for answering all my questions. Is there a general message that you want to give? Maybe it’s even saying it once over on something you’ve said before. What would be your final message for people who are listening? WHEN SSRIs IMPACTS YOUR SEX LIFE: ADVICE FROM DR AZIZ Dr. Aziz: I just want to say that when SSRI’s impact your sex life, it’s really important for psychiatry, and especially in therapy, that you feel comfortable sharing your experiences in that room. It should be a safe space where you feel comfortable talking about your feelings at home and what’s going on in your intimate life and how things are affecting you. Your feelings, positive or negative towards your therapist or your psychiatrist, whether things they said made you uncomfortable, whether you feel they’re avoiding something, that room should be a safe space for you to be as open as possible. When you are as open as possible, that’s when you’re going to get the best care because your provider, especially in mental health, needs to know the whole picture of what’s going on in your life. Oftentimes, we are just as uncomfortable as you. And so, again, a lot of providers might avoid it because they’re afraid of offending you by asking about your orgasms. As a patient, you take the initiative and you bring it up. It’s going to improve your care. Try not to be afraid of bringing these things up. If you do feel uncomfortable for any reason, always let your provider know.  I always tell my patients, I have a therapist. I pay a lot of money to see my therapist, and sometimes I tell him things I hate about him. He’s a great therapist. He’s psychoanalytic. Every time I bring something up, he brings it back to something about my dad. He’s way older than me. But he’s a great therapist. Every time I’ve brought something like that up, it’s been a breakthrough for me because that feeling means something. That would be my main message to everyone listening. Kimberley: Thank you. I’m so grateful for your time and your expertise. Really, thank you. Can you tell us where people can get in touch with you, seek out your services, read more about you? Dr. Aziz: Sure. I work for OCD SoCal. I’m on the executive board, and that’s the main way I like to communicate with people who see me on programs like this. You can always email me at S, like my first name, Aziz, that’s A-Z-I-Z, @OCDSoCal.org. If you’re a USC student, you can call Student Health and request to see me at the PBHS clinic. That’s the Psychiatry and Behavioral Health Services clinic on campus at USC. Kimberley: They’re lucky to have you. Dr. Aziz: Thank you. Kimberley: Yes. I love that you’re there. Thank you so much for all of your expertise. I am so grateful. This has been so helpful.

Welcome back, everybody. We are on Episode 2 of the Sexual Health and Anxiety Series. Today, I will be the main host and main speaker for the episode, talking about arousal and anxiety. This is a topic that goes widely misunderstood, particularly in the OCD and anxiety field where people are having arousal that they can’t make sense of. It’s also very true of people with PTSD. They’re having arousal that makes no sense to them, that confuses them, that increases anxiety, increases shame, increases guilt, and from there, it all becomes like a huge mess to them. It becomes incredibly painful, and it’s just so messy they can’t make sense of it.  My hope with this episode is to help you understand the science behind arousal and the science behind arousal and anxiety so that you can move forward and manage your anxiety around arousal and manage your shame and guilt and sadness and grief around arousal, and have a better relationship with your body and with yourself and your soul. Now, these are more difficult conversations. I have talked about them in the past, and so I want you just to go into this really, really gentle, really open with con compassion and kindness, and curiosity. Your curiosity is going to help you immensely as you move through this series, as you move through some of the difficult conversations we’re going to have, maybe a little bit embarrassing, humiliating, and so forth. Even me telling my kids that I’m so excited, I’m doing a series on sexual health, they’re like, “Mom, you can’t talk about that to other people.” I’m like, “Yes, I can. We’re going to talk about it. Hopefully, when you’re old enough, you’ll be able to listen to this and you’ll be so glad that we’re having conversations around this and taking the shame and stigma, and misinformation out of it.” I’m going to go straight into the episode. This is our episode on understanding arousal and anxiety. We are going to come on next week talking about an entirely different subject about sexual health and intimacy, sex and anxiety, and arousal and anxiety. I am so excited. Stick around. Enjoy every bit of it. Take as many notes as you can, but please, please be kind to yourself. Let’s get to the show. ANXIETY AND AROUSAL Let’s get into the episode. Let me preface the episode by, we’re talking about anxiety and arousal. If I could have one person on the podcast, it would be Emily Nagoski. I have been trying to get her on the podcast for a while. We will get her on eventually. However, she’s off doing amazing things—Netflix specials, podcasts, vet documentaries. She’s doing amazing things. Hopefully one day. But until then, I want to really highlight her as the genius behind a lot of these concepts.  Emily Nagoski is a doctor, a psychology doctor. She is a sex educator. She’s written two amazing books. Well, actually three or four, but the ones I’m referring to today is Come As You Are. It’s an amazing book, but I’m actually in my hand holding The Come As You Are Workbook. I strongly encourage you after you listen to this podcast episode to go and order that book. It is amazing. It’s got tons of activities. It might feel weird to have the book. You can get it on Kindle if you want to have it be hidden, but it’s so filled with amazing information and I’m going to try and give you the pieces that I really want you to take away. If you want more, by all means, go and get the workbook. The workbook is called The Come As You Are Workbook: A Practical Guide to The Science of Sex. The reason I love it is because it’s so helpful for those who have anxiety. It’s like she’s speaking directly to us. She’s like, “It’s so helpful to have this context.” Here’s the thing I want you to consider starting off. A lot of people who have anxiety report struggles with arousal. We’re going to talk about two different struggles that are the highlight of today. Either you have no arousal because of your anxiety, or you’re having arousal at particular times that concern you and confuse you, and alarm you. You could be one or both of those camps. Let’s first talk about those who are struggling with arousal in terms of getting aroused.  The thing I want you to think about is, commonly, this is true for any mental health issue too. It’s true for depression, anxiety disorders, eating disorders, dissociative disorders—all of them really. But the thing I want you to remember, no matter who you are and what your experience is, even if you have a really healthy experience of your own sexual arousal and you’re feeling fine about it, we all have what’s called inhibitors and exciters. Here is an example: An inhibitor is something that inhibits your arousal. An exciter is something that excites your arousal.  Now, you’re probably already feeling a ton of judgment here like, “I shouldn’t be aroused by this, and I should be aroused by this. What if I’m aroused by this and I shouldn’t be,” and so forth. I want us to take all the judgment out of this and just look at the content of what inhibits our arousal or excites our arousal. Because sometimes, and I’ll talk about this more, it’s for reasons that don’t make a lot of sense, and that’s okay. SEXUAL INHIBITORS AND SEXUAL EXCITERS Let’s talk about a sexual inhibitor—something that pumps the brakes on arousal or pleasure. It could be either. There’s exciters, which are the things that are really like the gas pedal. They just really bring on arousal, bring on pleasure, and so forth.  We have the content. The content may be, first, mental or physical, and this includes your health, your physical health. For me, I know when I am struggling with POTS, arousal is just barely a thing. You’re just so wiped out and you’re so exhausted and your brain is foggy, and it’s just like nothing. That would be, in my case, an inhibitor. I’m not going to talk about myself a lot here, but I was just using that as an example. You might say your anxiety or your obsession is an inhibitor. It pumps the brakes on arousal. It makes it go away. Worry is one. It could also be other physical health like headaches or tummy aches or, as we said before, depression. It could be hormone imbalances, things like that. It’s all as important. Go and speak with your doctor. That’s super important. Make sure medically everything checks out if you’re noticing a dip or change in arousal, that’s concerning you.  The next one in terms of content that may either excite you or inhibit you is your relationship. If your relationship is going well, you may or may not have an increase in arousal depending on what turns you on. If your partner smells of a certain smell or stench that you don’t like, that may pump the brakes. But if they smell a certain way that you do really like, and really is arousing to you, that may excite your arousal. It could also be the vibe of the relationship. A lot of people said, at the beginning of COVID, there was a lot of fear. That was really, really strong on the brakes. But then all of a sudden, no one had anything to do, and there was all this spare time. All of a sudden, the vibe is like, that’s what’s happening. Now, this could be true for people who are in any partnership, or it could be just you on your own too. There are things that will excite you and inhibit your arousal if you’re not in a relationship as well, and that’s totally fine. This is for all relationships. There’s no specific kind.  Setting is another thing that may pump the brakes or hit the gas for arousal, meaning certain places, certain rooms, certain events. Did your partner do something that turned you on? Going back to physical, it could also depend on your menstrual cycle. People have different levels of arousal depending on different stages of their menstrual cycle. I think the same is true for men, but I don’t actually have a lot of research on that. But I’m sure there are some hormonal impacts for men as well. There’s also ludic factors, which are like fantasy, whether you have a really strong imagination that either pumps the brakes or puts the gas pedal in terms of arousal. It could be like where you’re being touched. Sometimes there’s certain areas of your body that will set off either the gas pedal or the brakes. It could be a certain foreplay. Again, really what I’m trying to get at here isn’t breaking it down according to the workbook, but there’s so many factors that may influence your arousal.  SHAME AND SEXUAL AROUSAL Another one is environmental and cultural and shame. If arousal and the whole concept of sex was shamed or booked down on, or people have a certain opinion about your sexual orientation, that too can impact your gas pedal and your brakes pedal. I want you to explore this not from a place of pulling it apart really aggressively and critically, but really curiously, and check in for yourself. What arouses me? What presses my brakes? What presses my gas? And just start to get to know that. Again, in the workbook, there’s tons of worksheets for this, but you could also just consider this on your own. Write it down on your own. Be aware over the next several days or weeks, just jot down in a journal what you’re noticing. Now, before we move on, we’ve talked about a lot of people who are struggling with arousal and they’ve got a lot of inhibitors and brake pushing. There are the other camps who have a lot of gas pedal pushing. I speak here directly to the folks who have sexual obsessions, because often if you have sexual obsessions, the fact that your sexual obsession is sexual in nature may be what sets the gas pedal off, and all of a sudden, you have arousal for reasons that you don’t understand, that don’t make sense to you or maybe go against your values. I’ve got a quote that I took from the book and from the workbook of Emily Nagoski. Again, none of this is my personal stuff. I’m quoting her and citing her throughout this whole podcast. She says: “Bodies do not say yes or no; they say sex-related or not sex-related.” Let me say it again. “Bodies do not say yes or no; they say sex-related or not sex-related.” This is where I want you to consider, and I’ve experienced this myself. Just because something arouses you doesn’t mean it brings you pleasure—main point. We’ve got to pull them apart. SEXUAL OBSESSIONS & AROUSAL Culture has led us to believe that if you feel some groinal response to something, you must love it and want more of it. An example of this is, for people with sexual obsessions, maybe they have OCD or some other anxiety disorder and they have an intrusive thought about a baby or an animal. Bestiality is another very common obsession with OCD, or could be just about a person. It could be just about a person that you see in the grocery store. When you have a thought that is sex-related, sometimes, because the context of it is that it’s sex-related, your body may get aroused. Our job, particularly if you have OCD, is not to try and figure out what that means, is not to try and resolve like, does that mean I like it? Does that mean I’m a terrible person? What does that mean? I want you to understand the science here to help you understand your arousal, to help you understand how you can now shift your perspective towards your body and your mind and the pleasure that you experience in the area of sexuality. THE GROINAL RESPONSE Let’s talk about the groial resopsne. Again, the body doesn’t say yes or no; they say either sex-related or not sex-related. Here’s the funny thing, and I’ve done this experiment with my patients before, if you look at a lamp post or it could be anything. You could look at the pencil you’re holding, and you think about, and then you bring to mind a sexual experience, you may notice arousal (or the groinal response). Again, it doesn’t mean that you’re now aroused by pencils or pens; it’s that it was labeled as sex-related. Often your brain will naturally press the accelerator. That’s often how I educate people, particularly those who are having arousal that concern it. It’s the same for a lot of people who have sexual trauma. They maybe are really concerned about the fact that they do have arousal around a memory or something, and then that concerns them, what does that mean about me?  The thing to remember too is it’s not your body saying yes or no; it’s your body saying sex-related or not sex-related. It’s important to just help remind yourself of that so that you’re not responding to the content so much and getting caught up in compulsive behaviors.  A lot of my patients in the past have reported, particularly during times when they’re stressed, their anxiety is really high, life is difficult, any of this content we went through, they may actually have a hard time being aroused at all. Some people have reported not getting an erection and then it completely going for reasons they don’t understand. I think here, we want to practice, again, non-judgment. Instead, move to curiosity. There’s probably some content that impacted that, which is, again, very, very normal.  BETTER SEX THROUGH MINDFULNESS I’m talking with patients. I’ve done episodes on this in the past and we’ve in fact had sex therapists on the podcast in the past. They’ve said, if you’ve lost arousal, it doesn’t mean you give up. It doesn’t mean you say, “Oh, well, that’s that.” What you do is you move your attention to the content that pumps the gas. When I mean content, it’s like touch, smell, the relationship, the vibe, being in touch with your body, bringing your attention to the dance that you’re doing, whether it’s with a partner or by yourself or whatever means that works for you. You can bring that back. Another amazing book is called Better Sex Through Mindfulness. It talks a lot about bringing your attention to one or two sensations. Touch and smell being two really, really great ones.  Again, if your goal is to be aroused, you might find it’s very hard to be aroused because the context of that is pressure. I don’t know about you, but I don’t really find pressure arousing. Some may, and again, this is where I want this to be completely judgment free. There is literally no right and wrong. But pressure is usually not that arousing. Pressure is not that pleasurable in many cases, particularly when it’s forceful and it feels like you have to perform a certain way. Again, some people are at their best in performance mode, but I want to just remind you, the more pressure you put on yourself on this idea of ending it well, it’s probably going to make some anxiety. Same with test anxiety. The more pressure you put on yourself to get an A, the more you’re likely to spin out with anxiety. It’s really no different.  Here is where I want you to catch and ask yourself, is the pressure I put on myself or is the agenda I put on myself actually pumping the brakes for me when it comes to arousal? Is me trying not to have a thought, actually in the context of that, does that actually pump the brakes? Because I know you’re trying not to have the thought so that you can be intimate in that moment and engaged in pleasure. But the act of trying not to have the thought can actually pump the brakes. I hope that makes sense. I want you to get really close to understanding what’s going on for you. Everyone is different. Some things will pump the brakes, some things will pump the accelerator. A lot of the times, thought suppression pumps the brakes. A lot of the times, beating yourself up pumps the brakes. A lot of the time, they’re more like goal, like I have to do it this way. That often pumps the brakes. Keep an eye out for that. Engage in the exciters and get really mindful and present.  A couple of things here. We’ve talked about erections. That’s for people who struggle with that. It’s also true for women and men with lubrication. Some people get really upset about the fact that there may or may not be a ton of lubrication. Again, we’ve been misled to believe that if you’re not lubricated, you mustn’t be aroused or that you mustn’t want this thing, or that there must be something wrong with you, and that is entirely not true. A lot of women, when we study them, may be really engaged and their gas pedal is going for it, but there may be no lubrication. It doesn’t mean something is wrong in those cases. Often a sex therapist or a sex educator will encourage you to use lubrication, a lubricant. I’ve talked to clients and they’re so ashamed of that. But I think it’s important to recognize that that’s just because somebody taught us that, and sadly, it’s a lot to do with patriarchy and that it was pushed on women in particular, that that meant they’re like a good woman if they’re really lubricated. That’s not true. That’s just fake, false, no science, has no basis in reality.  Now we’ve talked about lubrication, we’ve talked about erection. Same for orgasm. Some people get really frustrated and disheartened that they can’t reach orgasm. If for any reason you’re struggling with this, please, I urge you, go and see a sex therapist. They are like the most highly trained therapists. They are so sensitive and compassionate. They can talk with you about this and you can target the specific things you want to work on. But orgasm is another one. If you put pressure on yourself to get there, that pumps the brakes often.  What I want you to do, and this is your homework, is don’t focus on arousal; focus on pleasure. Again, it’s really about being in connection with your partner or yourself. As soon as you put a list of to-dos with it is often when things go wrong. Just focus on being present as much as you can and in the moment being aware of, ooh. Move towards the exciters, the gas pedal things. Move away from the inhibitors. Be careful there. Again, for those of you who have anxiety, that doesn’t mean thought suppress, that doesn’t mean judge your thoughts because that in and of itself is an inhibitor often. I want to leave you with that. I’m going to, in the future, do a whole nother episode about talking more about this idea of arousal non-concordance, which is that quote I used: “The bodies don’t say yes or no; they say sex-related or not sex-related.” I’ll do more of that in the future, but for right now, I want it to be around you exploring your relationship with arousal, understanding it, but then putting your attention on pleasure. Being aware of both, being mindful of both.  I’m not a sex therapist. Again, I’m getting all of this directly from the workbook, but most of the clients I’ve talked to about this, and we’ve used some worksheets and so forth, they’ve said, “When I put all the expectations away and I just focus on this touch and this body part and this smell and this kiss or this fantasy, or being really in touch with your own body, when I just make it as simple as that and I bring it down to just engaging in what feels good, use it as a north star. You just keep following, that feels good. Okay, that feels good. That doesn’t feel so great. I’ll move towards what feels good”—moving in that direction non-judgmentally and curiously, they’ve had the time of their lives. I really just want to give you that gift. Focus on pleasure. Focus non-judgmentally and curiously, being aware of what’s current and present in your senses. That’s all I got for you for today. I think it’s enough. Do we agree? I think it’s enough. I could talk about this all day. To be honest, and I’ve said this so many times, if I had enough time, I would go back and I would become a sex therapist. It is a huge training. Sex therapists have the most intensive, extensive training and requirements. I would love to do it. But one day, I’ll probably do it when I’m like 70. That will be awesome. I’ll be down for that for sure.  I just love this content. Again, I want to be really clear, I’m not a sex therapist and so I still have tons to learn. I still have. Even with what we’ve covered today, there’s probably nuanced things that I could probably explain better, which is why I’m going to stress to you, go and check out the book. I was thinking about this. Remember I just recently did the episode on the three-day silent retreat and I was sitting in meditation. I remember this so clearly. I’m just going to tell you this quick story. For some reason, my mind was a little scattered this day and something came over with me where I was like, “Wouldn’t it be wonderful if I didn’t just treat anxiety disorders but I treated the person and the many problems that are associated with the anxiety disorder? Isn’t that a beautiful goal? Isn’t that so? Because it’s not just the anxiety; it’s the little tiny areas in our lives that it impacts.” As soon as I finished the meditation, I went on to my organization board that I use online and it was like, “Arousal. Let’s talk about pee and poop,” which is one episode we recently did. “Let’s talk about all the things because anxiety affects it all.” We can make little changes in all these areas, and slowly, you get your life back. So, I hope this gives you a little bit of your sexual expression back, if I could put it into words. Maybe not expression, but just your relationship with your body and pleasure.  I love you. Thank you for staying with me for this. This was brave work you’re doing. You probably had cringey moments. Hopefully not. Again, none of this is weird, wrong, bad. This is all human stuff. So, finish up. Again, go check out the book. Her name is Emily Nagoski. I’ll leave a link in the show notes. One day we’ll get her on. But in the meantime, I’ll hopefully just give you the science that she’s so beautifully given us.

You guys, I am literally giggling with excitement over what we are about to do together.  Last year, we did a series, the first series on Your Anxiety Toolkit where we talked about mental compulsions. It was a six-part series. We had some of the best therapists and best doctors in the world talking about mental compulsions. It was such a hit. So many people got so much benefit out of it. I loved it so much, and I thought that was fun, let’s get back to regular programming. But for the entire of last year after that series, it kept bugging me that I needed to do a series on sexual health and anxiety. It seems like we’re not talking about it enough. It seems like everyone has questions, even people on social media. The algorithm actually works against those who are trying to educate people around sex and sexual side effects and arousal and how anxiety impacts it. And so here I am. No one can stop us. Let’s do it.  This is going to be a six-part sexual health and anxiety series, and today we have a return guest, the amazing Lauren Fogel Mersy. She is the best. She is a sex therapist. She talks all about amazing stuff around sexual desire, sexual arousal, sexual anxiety. She’s going to share with you, she has a book coming out, but she is going to kick this series off talking about sexual anxiety, or we actually also compare and contrast sexual performance anxiety because that tends to better explain what some of the people’s symptoms are.  Once we go through this episode, we’re then going to meet me next week where I’m going to go back over. I’ve done an episode on it before, but we’re going to go back over understanding arousal and anxiety. And then we’re going to have some amazing doctors talking about medications and sexual side effects. We have an episode on sexual intrusive thoughts. We have an episode on premenstrual anxiety. We also have an episode on menopause and anxiety. My hope is that we can drop down into the topics that aren’t being covered enough so that you feel like you’ve got one series, a place to go that will help you with the many ways in which anxiety can impact us when it comes to our sexual health, our sexual arousal, our sexual intimacy. I am so, so, so excited. Let’s get straight to it.  This is Episode 1 of the Sexual Health and Anxiety Series with Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy. Lauren is a licensed psychologist. She’s a certified sex therapist, she’s an author, and she is going to share with us and we’re going to talk in-depth about sexual anxiety. I hope you enjoy the show. I hope you enjoy all of the episodes in this series. I cannot wait to listen to these amazing speakers—Lauren, being the first one. Thank you, Lauren. What Is Sexual Anxiety Or Sexual Performance Anxiety? Are They The Same Thing? Kimberley: Welcome. I am so happy to have you back, Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy. Welcome. Dr. Lauren: Thank you so much for having me back. I’m glad to be here. Kimberley: I really wanted to deep dive with you. We’ve already done an episode together. I’m such a joy to have you on. For those of you who want to go back, it’s Episode 140 and we really talked there about how anxiety impacts sex. I think that that is really the big conversation. Today, I wanted to deep dive a little deeper into talking specifically about sexual anxiety, or as I did a little bit of research, what some people call sexual performance anxiety. My first question for you is, what is sexual anxiety or what is sexual performance anxiety? Are they the same thing or are they a little different? Dr. Lauren: I think people will use those words interchangeably. It’s funny, as you say that, I think that performance anxiety, that word ‘performance’ in particular, I hear that more among men than I do among women. I think that that might be attributed to so many people’s definition of sex is penetration. In order for penetration to be possible, if there’s a partner who has a penis involved that that requires an erection. I often hear that word ‘performance’ attributed to essentially erection anxiety or something to do with, will the erection stay? Will it last? Basically, will penetration be possible and work out? I think I often hear it attributed to that. And then sexual anxiety is a maybe broader term for a whole host of things, I would say, beyond just erection anxiety, which can involve anxiety about being penetrated. It could be anxiety about certain sexual acts like oral sex giving, receiving. It could be about whether your body will respond in the way that you want and hope it to. I think that word, sexual anxiety, that phrasing can encompass a lot of different things. WHAT ARE SOME SEXUAL ANXIETY SYMPTOMS? Kimberley: Yeah. I always think of it as, for me, when I talk with my patients about the anticipatory anxiety of sex as well. Like you said, what’s going to happen? Will I orgasm? Will I not? Will they like my body? Will they not? I think that it can be so broad. I love how you define that, how they can be different. That performance piece I think is really important. You spoke to it just a little, but I’d like to go a little deeper. What are some symptoms of sexual anxiety that a man or a woman may experience?  Dr. Lauren: I think this can be many different things. For some people, it’s the inability to get aroused, which sifting through the many things that can contribute to that, knowing maybe that I’m getting into my head and that’s what’s maybe tripping me up and making it difficult to get aroused. It could be a racing heartbeat as you’re starting to get close to your partner, knowing that sex may be on the table. I’ve had some people describe it can get as severe as getting nauseated, feeling like you might be sick because you’re so worked up over the experience. Some of that maybe comes from trauma or negative experiences from the past, or some of it could be around a first experience with a partner really hoping and wanting it to go well. Sometimes we can get really nervous and those nerves can come out in our bodies, and then they can also manifest in all of the thoughts that we have in the moment, really getting distracted and not being able to focus and just be present. It can look like a lot of different things. SEXUAL AVOIDANCE Kimberley: That’s so interesting to hear in terms of how it impacts and shows up. What about people who avoid sex entirely because of that? I’m guessing for me, I’m often hearing about people who are avoiding. I’m guessing for you, people are coming for the same reason. You’re a sex therapist. How does that show up in your practice? Dr. Lauren: One of the things that can cause avoidance-- there’s actually an avoidance cycle that people can experience either on their own or within a partnership, and that avoidance is a way of managing anxiety or managing the distress that can come with challenging sexual experiences and trying to either protect ourselves or protect our relationships from having those outcomes as a possibility. There used to be a diagnosis called sexual aversion. It was called a sexual aversion disorder. We don’t have that in our language anymore. We don’t use that disorder because I think it’s a really protective, sensible thing that we might do at times when we get overwhelmed or when we’re outside of what we call a window of tolerance. It can show up as complete avoidance of sexual activity. It could show up as recoiling from physical touch as a way to not indicate a desire for that to progress any further. It could be avoidance of dating because you don’t want the inevitable conversation about sexuality or the eventuality that maybe will come up. Depending on whether you’re partnered or single and how that manifests in the relationship, it can come out in different ways through the avoidance of maybe different parts of the sexual experience, everything from dampening desire to avoiding touch altogether.  Kimberley: That’s really interesting. They used to have it be a diagnosis and then now, did they give it a different name or did they just wipe it off of the DSM completely? What would you do diagnostically now?  Dr. Lauren: It’s a great question. I think it was wiped out completely. I haven’t looked at a DSM in a long time. I think it was swiped out completely. Just personally as a sex therapist and the clinician I am today, I don’t use many of the sexual health diagnoses from the DSM because I think that they are pathologizing to the variation in the human sexual experience. I’m not so fond of them myself. What I usually do is I would frame that as an anxiety-related concern or just more of a sexual therapy or sex counseling concern. Because I think as we have a growing understanding of our nervous system and the ways in which our system steps in to protect us when something feels overwhelming or frightening or uncertain, I think it starts to make a lot of sense as to why we might avoid something or respond in the ways that we do. Once we have some understanding of maybe there’s some good sense behind this move that you’re making, whether that’s to avoid or protect or to hesitate or to get in your head, then we can have some power over adjusting how we’re experiencing the event once we understand that there’s usually a good reason why something’s there. Kimberley: That is so beautiful. I love that you frame it that way. It’s actually a good lesson for me because I am always in the mindset of like, we’ve got to get rid of avoidance. That’s the anxiety work that I do. I think that you bring up a beautiful point that I hadn’t even considered, which is, we always look at avoidance as something we have to fix as soon as possible. I think what you’re saying is you don’t conceptualize it that way at all and we can talk more about what you could do to help if someone is having avoidance and they want to fix that. But what I think you’re saying is we’re not here to pathologize that as a problem here. Dr. Lauren: Yeah. I see it, I’m trained less in the specifics. I think that makes a lot of sense when you’re working with specific anxiety disorders and OCD and the like. I’ve, as of late, been training in more and more emotionally focused therapy. I’m coming at it from an attachment perspective, and I’m coming at it from somewhat of a systemic perspective and saying, what is the avoidance doing? What is it trying to tell us? There’s usually some good reason somewhere along the way that we got where we are. Can I validate that that makes sense? That when something is scary or uncertain or you were never given good information or you really want something to go well and you’re not sure about it, and it means a lot to you, there’s all kinds of good reasons why that might hit as overwhelming. When we’re talking about performance anxiety or sexual anxiety, really the number one strategy I’m looking for is, how can we work with what we call your window of tolerance? If your current comfort zone encompasses a certain amount of things, whatever that might be, certain sexual acts with maybe a certain person, maybe by yourself, I want to help you break down where you want to get to and break that into the smallest, manageable, tolerable steps so that what we’re doing is we’ve got one foot in your current window of what you can tolerate and maybe just a toe at a time out, and breaking that up into manageable pieces so that we don’t keep overwhelming your system. That is essentially what my job is with a lot of folks, is helping them take those steps and often what our nervous system needs to register, that it’s okay, that it’s safe, that we can move towards our goals. Cognitively, we think it’s too slow or it’s too small. It’s not. We have to really break that down.  If there’s something about the sexual experience that you’re avoiding, that is overwhelming, that you’re afraid of, what I do is validate that, makes sense that that maybe is just too much and too big all at once. And then let’s figure out a way to work ourselves up to that goal over time. Usually, slower is faster.  WHY DO PEOPLE HAVE SEXUAL ANXIETY?  Kimberley: I love that. I really do. Why do people have sexual anxiety? Is that even an important question? Do you explore that with your patients? I think a lot of people, when I see them in my office or online, we know there’s a concern that they want to fix, but they’re really quite distressed by the feeling that something is wrong with them and they want to figure out what’s wrong with them. Do you have some feedback on why people have sexual anxiety?  Dr. Lauren: I do. I think it can stem from a number of experiences or lack thereof in our lives. There are some trends and themes that come up again and again that I’ve seen over the years in sex therapy. Even though we’re taping here in the US, we’re in a culture that has a lot of sexuality embedded within the media, there is still a lot of taboo and a lot of misinformation about sex or a lack of information that people are given. I mean, we still have to fight for comprehensive sex education. Some people have gotten explicitly negative messages about sex growing up. Some people have been given very little to know information about sex growing up. Both of those environments can create anxiety about sex. We also live in a world where we’re talking openly about sex with friends, parents teaching their children more than just abstinence, and going into a little bit more depth about what healthy sexuality looks like between adults. A lot of that is still not happening. What you get is a very little frame of reference for what’s ‘normal’ and what’s considered concerning versus what is par for the course with a lifetime of being a sexual person. So, a lot of people are just left in the dark, and that can create anxiety for a good portion of those folks, whether it’s having misinformation or just no information about what to expect. And then the best thing that most of us have to draw on is the Hollywood version of a very brief sex scene. Kimberley: Yes. I was just thinking about that. Dr. Lauren: And it’s just so wildly different than your actual reality. Kimberley: Yeah. That’s exactly what I was thinking about, is the expectation is getting higher and higher, especially as we’re more accessible to pornography online, for the young folks as well, just what they expect themselves to do. Dr. Lauren: That’s right. We have young people being exposed to that on the internet. We’ve got adults viewing that. With proper porn literacy and ethical porn consumption, that can be a really healthy way to enjoy erotic content and to engage in sexuality. The troubling thing is when we’re not media literate, when we don’t have some of the critical thinking to really remember and retain the idea that this entertainment, this is for arousal purposes, that it’s really not giving an accurate or even close depiction of what really goes on between partners. I think it’s easier for us to maintain that level of awareness when we’re consuming general movies and television. But there’s something about that sexuality when you see it depicted in the media that so many people are still grappling with trying to mimic what they see. I think that’s because there’s such an absence of a frame of reference other than those media depictions. SEXUAL ANXIETY IN MALES VS SEXUAL ANXIETY IN FEMALES  Kimberley: Right. So good. Is there a difference between sexual anxiety in males and sexual anxiety in females? Dr. Lauren: I think it can show up differently, certainly depending on what role you play in the sexual dynamic, what positions you’re looking to or what sexual acts you’re looking to explore. There’s a different level or a different flavor of anxiety, managing erection anxiety, managing anxiety around premature ejaculation. They’re all similar, but there’s some unique pieces to each one. All of the types of anxiety that I’ve seen related to sex have some common threads, which is getting up into our heads and dampening the experience of pleasure not being as present in the moment, not being as embodied in the moment, because we get too focused on what will or won’t happen just moments from now.  While that makes so much sense, you’re trying to foretell whether it’s going to be a positive experience, there is a-- I hate to say like a self-fulfilling prophecy, but there’s a reaction in our bodies to some of those anxious thoughts. If I get into my head and I start thinking to myself, “This may not go well. This might hurt. I might lose my arousal. I might not be able to orgasm. My partner may not think I’m good in bed,” whatever those anxious thoughts are, the thoughts themselves can become a trigger for a physical reaction. That physical reaction is that it can turn on our sympathetic nervous system, and that is the part of our body that says, “Hey, something in the environment might be dangerous here, and it’s time to mobilize and get ready to run.” What happens in those moments once our sympathetic system is online, a lot of that blood flow goes out of our genital region, out of our chest and into our extremities, to your arms, to your legs. Your body is acting as if there was a bear right there in front of you and your heart rate goes up and all of these things. Now, some of those can also be signs of arousal. That’s where it can get really tricky because panting or increased heart rate or sweating can also be arousal. It’s really confusing for some people because there can be a parallel process in your physiology. Is this arousal or is this anxiety?  CAN ANXIETY IMPACT AROUSAL? CAN ANXIETY IMPACT SEX DRIVE?  Kimberley: It’s funny that you mentioned that because as I was researching and doing a little bit of Googling about these topics, one of the questions which I don’t get asked very often is, can anxiety cause arousal? Because I know last time, we talked about how anxiety can reduce arousal. Is that something that people will often report to you that having anxiety causes them to have sexual arousal, not fight and flight arousal? Dr. Lauren: Yeah. I mean, what I see more than anything is that it links to desire, and here’s how that tends to work for some people because then the desire links to the arousal and it becomes a chain. For many people out in the world, they engage in sexual activity to impart self-soothe and manage stress. It becomes a strategy or an activity that you might lean on when you’re feeling increased stress or distress. That could be several different emotions that include anxiety. If over my lifetime or throughout the years as I’ve grown, maybe I turn to masturbation, maybe I turn to partnered sex when I’m feeling anxious, stressed, or distressed, over time, that’s going to create a wiring of some of that emotion, and then my go-to strategy for decreasing that emotion or working through that emotion. That pairing over time can definitely work out so that as soon as I start feeling anxious, I might quickly come to feelings of arousal or a desire to be sexual. Kimberley: Very interesting. Thank you. That was not a question I had, but it was interesting that it came up when I was researching. Very, very cool. This is like a wild card question. Again, when I was researching here, one of the things that I got went down a little rabbit hole, a Google rabbit hole, how you go down those... Dr. Lauren: That’s never happened to me. WHAT IS POST-SEX ANXIETY?  Kimberley: ...is, what about post-sex anxiety? A lot of what we are talking about today, what I would assume is anticipatory anxiety or during-sex anxiety. What about post-sex anxiety? What is post-sex anxiety? Dr. Lauren: I’ve come across more-- I don’t know if it’s research or articles that have been written about something called postcoital dysphoria, which is like after-sex blues. Some people get tearful, some get sad, some feel like they want to pull away from their partner and they need a little bit of space. That’s certainly a thing that people report. I think either coexisting with that or sometimes in its place can be maybe feelings of anxiety that ramp up. I think that can be for a variety of things. Some of it could be, again, getting into your head and then doing a replay like, was that good? Are they satisfied? We get into this thinking that it’s like a good or bad experience and which one was it. Also, there’s many people who look to sex, especially when we have more anxiety, and particularly if we have a more predominantly anxious attachment where we look to sex as a way to validate the relationship, to feel comforted, to feel secure, to feel steady. There’s a process that happens where it’s like seeking out sex for comfort and steadiness, having sex in the moment, feeling more grounded. And then some of that anxiety may just return right on the other end once sex is over, and then you’re back to maybe feeling some insecurity or unsteadiness again. When that happens, that’s usually a sign that it’s not just about sex. It’s not just a sexual thing. It’s actually more of an attachment and an insecurity element that needs and warrants may be a greater conversation.  The other thing is your hormones and chemicals change throughout the experience. You get this increase of bonding maybe with a partner, oxytocin, and feel-good chemicals, and then they can sometimes drop off after an orgasm, after the experience. For some people, they might just experience that as depressed mood anxiety, or just a feeling of being unsettled. Kimberley: That’s so interesting. It makes total sense about the attachment piece and the relational piece, and that rumination, that more self-criticism that people may do once they’ve reviewed their performance per se. That’s really helpful to hear. Actually, several people have mentioned to me when I do lives on Instagram the postcoital dysphoria. Maybe you could help me with the way to word it, but is that because of a hormone shift, or is that, again, because of a psychological shift that happens after orgasm? Dr. Lauren: My understanding is that we’re still learning about it, that we’ve noticed that it’s a phenomenon. We’re aware of it, we have a name for it, but I don’t know that we have enough research to fully understand it just yet. Right now, if I’m not misquoting the research, I believe our understanding is more anecdotal at this point. I would say, many different things could be possible, anything from chemical changes to attachment insecurities, and there’s probably things that are beyond that I’m also missing in that equation. I think it’s something we’re still studying. HOW TO OVERCOME SEX ANXIETY, AND HOW CAN WE COPE WITH SEX ANXIETY?   Kimberley: Very interesting. Let’s talk now about solutions. When should someone reach out to either a medical professional, a mental health professional? What would you advise them to do if they’re experiencing sexual anxiety or performance anxiety when it comes to sex? Dr. Lauren: That makes a lot of sense. That’s a great question. What I like to tell people is I want you to think of your sexual experiences like a bell curve. For those who were not very science or math-minded like myself, just a quick refresher, a bell curve basically says that the majority of your experiences in sex are going to be good, or that’s what we’re hoping for and aiming for. And then there’s going to be a few on one tail, there’s going to be some of those, not the majority, that are amazing, that are excellent, that really stand out. Yes, mind-blowing, fabulous. And then there’s the other side of that curve, that pole. The other end is going to be, something didn’t work out, disappointing, frustrating. There is no 100% sexual function across a lifetime with zero hiccups. That’s not going to be a realistic goal or expectation for us.  I always like to start off by reminding people that you’re going to have some variation and experience. What we’d like is for at least a good chunk of them to be what Barry McCarthy calls good enough sex. It doesn’t have to be mind-blowing every time, but we want it to be satisfying, of good quality. If you find that once or twice you can’t get aroused, you don’t orgasm, you’re not as into it, one of the liabilities for us anxious folks, and I consider myself one of them having generalized anxiety disorder my whole life—one of the things that we can do sometimes is get catastrophic with one or two events where it doesn’t go well and start to jump to the conclusion that this is a really bad thing that’s happening and it’s going to happen again, and it’s life-altering sort of thing. One thing is just keeping this in mind that sometimes that’s going to happen, and that doesn’t necessarily mean that the next time you go to be sexual that it’ll happen again. But if you start to notice a pattern, a trend over several encounters, then you might consider reaching out to someone like a general therapist, a sex therapist to help you figure out what’s going on.  Sometimes there’s a medical component to some of these concerns, like a pattern of difficulty with arousal. That’s not a bad idea to get that checked out by a medical provider because sometimes there could be blood flow concerns or hormone concerns. Again, I think we’re looking for patterns. If there’s a pattern, if it’s something that’s happening more than a handful of times, and certainly if it’s distressing to you, that might be a reason to reach out and see a professional. Kimberley: I think you’re right. I love the bell curve idea and actually, that sounds very true because often I’ll have clients who have never mentioned sex to me. We’re working on their anxiety disorder, and then they have one time where they were unable to become aroused or have an erection or have an orgasm. And then like you said, that catastrophic thought of like, “What happens if this happens again? What if it keeps happening?” And then as you said, they start to ruminate and then they start to avoid and they seek reassurance and all those things. And then we’re in that kind of, as you said, self-fulfilling, now we’re in that pattern. That rings very, very true. What about, is there any piece of this? I know I’m disclosing and maybe from my listeners, you’re probably thinking it’s TMI, but I remember after having children that everything was different and it did require me to go and speak to a doctor and check that out. So, my concerns were valid in that point. Would it be go to the therapist first, go to the doctor first? What would you recommend? Dr. Lauren: Yeah. I mean, you’re not alone in that. The concerns are always valid, whether they’re medical, whether they’re psychological, wherever it’s stemming from. If after once or twice you get freaked out and you want to just go get checked out, I don’t want to discourage anybody from doing that either. We’re more than happy to see you, even if it’s happened once or twice, just to help walk you through that so you’re not alone. But the patterns are what we’re looking for overall.  I think it depends. Here’s some of the signs that I look for. If sex is painful, particularly for people with vaginas, if it’s painful and it’s consistently painful, that’s something that I would recommend seeing a sexual medicine specialist for. There are some websites you can go to to look up a sexual medicine specialist, someone in particular who has received specialized training to treat painful sex and pelvic pain. That would be an indicator. If your body is doing a lot of bracing and tensing with sex so your pelvic floor muscles are getting really tight, your thighs are clenching up, those might be some moments where maybe you want to see a medical provider because from there, they may or may not recommend, depending on whether it’s a fit for you, something called pelvic floor therapy. That’s something that people can do at various stages of life for various reasons but is doing some work specifically with the body.  Other things would be for folks with penises. If you’re waking up consistently over time where you’re having difficulty getting erections for sexual activity and you’re not waking up with erections anymore, that morning wood—if that’s consistent over time, that could be an indicator to go get something checked out, maybe get some blood work, talk to your primary care just to make sure that there’s nothing in addition to maybe if we think anxiety is a part of it, make sure there’s nothing else that could be going on as well. HOW TO COPE WITH SEX ANXIETY Kimberley: Right. I love this. This is so good. Thank you again. Let’s quickly just round it out with, how may we overcome this sex anxiety, or how could we cope with sex anxiety? Dr. Lauren: It’s the million-dollar question, and I’ve got a pretty, I’ll say, simple but not easy answer. It’s a very basic answer. Kimberley: The good answers are always simple but hard to apply. Dr. Lauren: Simple, it’s a simple theory or idea. It’s very hard in practice. One of, I’d say, the main things I do as a sex therapist is help people really diversify what sex is. The more rigid of a definition we have for sex and the more rigidly we adhere to a very particular set of things that have to happen in a particular order, in a very specific way, the more trouble we’re going to have throughout our lifetime making that specific thing happen. The work is really in broadening and expanding our definition of sex and having maybe a handful of different pathways to be sexual or to be intimate with a partner so that, hey, if today I have a little bit more anxiety and I’m not so sure that I get aroused that we can do path A or B. If penetration is not possible today because of whatever reason that we can take path C. When we have more energy or less energy, more time, less time, that the more flexibility we have and expansiveness we have to being intimate and sexual, the more sexual you’ll be. Kimberley: Just because I want to make sure I can get what you’re saying, when you say this inflexible idea of what this narrow you’re talking about, I’m assuming, I’m putting words in your mouth and maybe what you’re thinking because I’m sure everybody’s different, but would I be right in assuming that the general population think that sex is just intercourse and what you’re saying is that it’s broader in terms of oral sex and other? Is that the A, B, and C you’re talking about?  Dr. Lauren: Yeah. There’s this standard sexual script that most people follow. It’s the one that we see in Hollywood, in erotic videos. It centers mostly heterosexual vaginal penetration, so penis and vagina sex. It centers sex as culminating in orgasm mainly for the man, and then nice if it happens for the woman as well in these heterosexual scenarios. It follows a very linear progression from start to finish. It looks something like—tell me if this doesn’t sound familiar—a little bit of kissing and some light touching and then some heavier touching, groping, caressing, and then maybe oral sex and then penetration as the main event, orgasm as the finish line. That would be an example of when I say path A or B or C. I’m thinking like that in particular what I just described.  Let’s call that path A for not that it’s the gold standard, but it’s the one we draw on. Let’s say that’s one option for having a sexual encounter. But I also want people to think about there’s going to be times where that is not on the table for a variety of reasons, because if you think about it, that requires a certain energy, time. There might be certain conditions that you feel need to be present in order for that to be possible. For some people, it automatically goes to the wayside the moment something happens like, “Well, I don’t feel like I have enough time,” or “I’m tired,” or “I’m menstruating,” or whatever it is. Something comes up as a barrier and then that goes out the door. That can include things like anxiety and feeling like we have to adhere to this progression in this particular way. Let’s call that path A. Path B might be, we select a couple of things from that that we like. Let’s say we do a little kissing and we do oral sex and we say goodnight. Let’s say path C is we take a shower together and we kiss and we soap each other’s backs and we hug. That’s path C. Path D is massaging each other, full body. You’ve got all these different pathways to being erotic or sensual or intimate or sexual. The more that you have different pathways to being intimate, the more intimate you’ll be. Kimberley: That is so relieving is the word I feel. I feel a sense of relief in terms of like, you’re right. I think that that is a huge answer, as you said. Actually, I think it’s a good answer. I don’t think that’s a hard answer. I like that. For me, it feels like this wonderful relief of pressure or change of story and narrative. I love that. I know in the last episode you did, you talked a lot about mindfulness and stuff like that, which I will have in this series. People can go and listen to it as well. I’m sure that’s a piece of the pie. I want to be respectful of your time. Where can people hear more about you and the work that you’re doing? I know that you have an exciting book coming out, so tell us a little bit about all that. Dr. Lauren: Thank you. I do. I co-authored a book called Desire. It’s an inclusive guide to managing libido differences in relationships. I co-authored that with my colleague Dr. Jennifer Vencill. That comes out August 22nd, 2023 of this year. We’ll be talking in that book mainly about desire. There are some chapters or some sections in the book that do intersect with things like anxiety. There’s some particular instructions and exercises that help walk people through some things that they can do with a partner or on their own to work through anxiety. We’ve got an anxiety hierarchy in there where whatever your goal might be, how to break that up into smaller pieces. We’re really excited about that. I think that might be helpful for some people in your audience. And then in general, I am most active on Instagram. My handle is my full name. It’s @drlaurenfogelmersy. I’m also on Facebook and TikTok. My website is drlaurenfogel.com. Kimberley: Thank you. Once again, so much pleasure having you on the show. Thank you for your beautiful expertise. You bring a gentle, respectful warmth to these more difficult conversations, so thank you. Dr. Lauren: Oh, I appreciate it. Thanks for having me back.

Welcome back, everybody. I had a whole other topic planned to talk with you about today and I’ve had to basically bench it because I feel so compelled to talk to you about this topic, which is the topic of having fun. Now, you might be having a strong reaction to this and maybe there’s a bunch of people who didn’t listen because the idea of having fun feels so silly when you are anxious and depressed. It feels like a stupid idea, a ridiculous idea. But the last few weeks have taught me such valuable lessons about mental health. I talk about mental health all the time. That’s what I live and breathe pretty much. Sometimes when you have an experience—I keep saying it changes your DNA—I feel to a degree my DNA has been changed these last few weeks and let me share with you why.  For those of you who follow me on social media, you will know that in the last couple of weeks, I made a very last-minute trip to the United Kingdom. What happened was pre-COVID, I had booked tickets to visit London for a work event, and COVID happened. I had a certain amount of time to use these tickets, and I actually had thought that those tickets had expired on December 30th of last year. And then one Friday morning, I woke up and checked my email and it said, “You have 18 days until you depart.” I’m thinking, 18 days to depart, where? I haven’t booked any tickets. Only to find out that my tickets were put on what’s called an “open hold,” which meant they had just put a date to a trip knowing that I would log in and reschedule it when I was ready. It turned out to be three years later. And then I logged on and saw I have 19 days to use my ticket.  I went upstairs, I talked to my husband, and I said, “I have this ticket to the United Kingdom I’ve never been to. I would really love to go.” He said, “You should go. I think it would be really good for you. I’ll stay home with the kids. You go.” That was the plan. I was going to go, I was going to keep working, I was going to see my clients, but when I wasn’t working, I would go out and have British food and maybe go walk around London and maybe visit a castle or two. That was the plan. I was so excited.  I happened to mention it to my sister-in-law who I love, and I said, “Ha-ha, you should come.” She said, “Oh! No, there’s no way I could come and I didn’t think anything of it.” And then the next morning I woke up, she had messaged me and said, “I’ve changed my mind. I’m coming.” Now, there is a point to this story, which is, my first thought was, “Oh my gosh, that’s so exciting.” My second thought was, “Oh my gosh, that is scary,” because my sister-in-law is the most wonderful human being and she loves to have fun. What was shocking to me is I started to notice I was going to pump the brakes on fun. No, no, no, no, no, no. Oh my gosh. Now quickly, of course, I said, “Come, I’m so excited.” We went, but that response was so interesting to me. What it was, was my anxiety did not like the idea that we were going to go and let loose. My anxiety did not like that inhibitory piece, that amygdala deep in my brain was like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, pump the brakes. This is going way too fast for me.”  The reason I’m doing today’s episode is I bet you that’s what your brain does too. It wants to pump the brakes on fun and pleasure because it creates uncertainty and it creates vulnerability and it creates where things aren’t in control anymore. Letting go and having fun is hard when you have anxiety. Letting go and having fun is hard when you have depression.  “Yes” Week We went and we called the week “YES week.” Actually, I called it “YES week” because I knew this was an exposure I needed to do. We made an agreement that if one person wanted to do something, both of us had to say yes. If someone wanted to try a food, and my sister-in-law loves to try all the different foods, we both had to say yes. It was such a deep exposure experience for me. A deep, oh my gosh, pleasurable. I don’t want you to think it was all hard because the truth is, it was all pleasurable and I was so surprised at how my brain kept making problems out of having fun.  I’ll give you another example. We’re sitting at this Indian restaurant. We kept saying to the maitre d’ or the people at the front desk, “Tell us the best Indian restaurant. Tell us the best high tea. Tell us the best place to go and have drinks. Tell us the best place to get scotch eggs. Tell us the best place to have Scottish pie. Tell us the best.” We kept saying that. We were sitting at this Indian restaurant and my sister-in-law was like, “We’ll have one of those and one of those and one of those and one of those.” She’s a foodie. I could even feel my body going like, “No, no, no, no, that’s too much fun.” It’s so interesting to me how my brain was pumping the breaks on fun and how when you have fun, again, after doing this for one week, I felt like my DNA was changed. I realized how-- I don’t want to use the word controlling because I don’t consider myself a controlling person, but how much my brain wants to monitor the amount of fun that happens and how much my brain’s anxiety wants to raise alerts about the simplest things. We went to a million abbeys and I realized that I have this deep love for visiting churches and abbeys. Oh my gosh, I feel like my whole heart just shines bright. I’m not particularly a religious person at all, but just visiting these abbeys in these gorgeous places. And then she’ll come up and she’ll pull on my sleeve and she’ll say, “Let’s go do this extra tour.” My mind wants to be like, “No, no, no, no. We’ve done enough fun for one day.” She’s like, “Let’s go.” I’d be like, “Yes,” because we have to say yes.  There’s this place called Duck & Waffle, which is a ‘70s nightclub restaurant. It was fabulous. She’s like, “We should try that.” My brain kept going, “No, no. We just had some food before.” It was all these things and it was just keep saying yes to fun. Keep saying yes, keep saying yes. Yes week, that’s what it was. I realized after a week of doing this how little power my anxiety had. I’m thinking about it. I’m just dropping down into it. You can see I’m slowing down. Now, number one, I want to acknowledge, you can’t live like that forever. That was a vacation. I would never do that on a day-to-day basis because it’s not realistic, it’s not reasonable. We have to live a reasonable life. But I made a deal with myself as I was going back over Greenland. I was flying over Greenland looking at this huge snowy country and I was thinking, wow, I wish I lived in a country this beautiful. And then I was like, “Wait, I do.” You could start to practice being in the beauty of your country more. And then I started thinking, what would happen if I went home and I deeply enjoyed the food? Like I slowed down to actually take in the pleasure of the food. I mean, I think I do an okay job at this, but on vacation, like I said, we were practicing going, “Ooh, I love the flavor of this. Ooh, that’s so soft and that’s so sweet and that’s so tender,” and all the things.  What if I actually really allowed pleasure and fun to tickle my senses here in my daily life? What if instead of making dinner like a serious mom, which I often do because I don’t want to embarrass my children—what if instead I let myself dance more? What if I goofed off more? What if I enjoyed laughing more? What if I practiced and made a habit of implementing fun into my life on the daily? This is what I was thinking about, what’s the ratio of work to fun in your life? I mean, I’m guessing you have either school or work or family or a mental health issue that you’re managing or a medical health issue that you’re managing. That’s work. What’s the ratio of work to fun? It made me really think like I have a wonderful life and I’m so grateful for my wonderful life, but the ratio of work to fun is not ideal. It’s not where I want it to be. Once I had spent a week of just saying yes, yes, yes, and not letting fear ever say no, it was so cool because I had this accountability buddy right next to me. I realized like once I’d done that for a week, I wanted to keep it going. I didn’t want to go back to pumping the brakes anymore. It’s been such a beautiful gift that I had.  The Fun Habit Now, I’m going to encourage you to create a yes week or a yes day, or a yes hour. I just finished a book called The Fun Habit: How the Pursuit of Joy and Wonder Can Change Your Life. It’s by Mike Rucker. A friend of mine encouraged me to read it after I had told her like I literally just had this date with fun. I had this exposure of fun. I had a yes week where we said yes to. If we wanted to sleep in, we slept in. If we wanted to read, we read. It was really beautiful. Again, I understand the privilege of having that experience, but I worked my butt off too. I needed that. I really, really needed that. My mental health really needed it and so forth. But the book is talking about how we have talked about and trained ourselves to be afraid of fun. We’ve demonized fun as if it’s irresponsible or unnecessary or ridiculous or lazy.  I want to leave you today with the idea to plant a seed where you go and have more fun. I was thinking about it. For those of you who have anxiety disorders or depressive disorder, this is the biggest FU to anxiety. It’s the biggest FU to depression. It’s the biggest “Don’t tell me what to do” when it comes to recovering from anxiety and depression. Is it going to fix it completely? No. I don’t want to oversell it here. But is it a major game changer? Does it change the way we see the world? Does it increase the dopamine that gets released into your body? Does it make the hard work worth it? Yes.  I was thinking like, I was so excited to go back to work because I had a week of fun. If I had have done my original plan, which is where I worked while I was in London, and I just visited a little on the side, I wouldn’t have been that excited to come back to work. But I was so excited to come back to work and I was so excited to sit down and talk to you on this podcast. I don’t think that would’ve been the case if I had have pumped the brakes like I was planning to for that week. Have More Fun! There you have it. I’m going to ask you, please give you permission. Go and have more fun. Increase the percentage a few percent or 100% or 50% or 10%, whatever you can do. But do your best to implement pieces of fun into your daily life. It will literally change your DNA. Not literally, that’s scientifically not true. Don’t take that as literal. But for me, I felt like my DNA had been changed. I kept saying it. I’m like, “I feel like my DNA has something shifted in me.” It’s because I realized even though I have so much joy in my life, I do still pump the brakes on fun and I want there to be more and I’m dedicating more time to fun and savoring pleasure.  So that’s all I want to say. Go and have some fun, please. I’d love to hear about the fun that you’re having. When fear shows up, try to confuse it by saying, “You know what, fear? You can be here and I’m going to go choose fun anyway.” Fun can be whatever it is for you. There’s no right way of having fun and it doesn’t have to be expensive here either. Like I said, a lot of the things that my sister-in-law and I did cost no money. It’s just that we were saying yes to silly things. Some of it was even like cartwheeling in the underground train station or giggling at stupid things that are so silly and so immature, but having fun with it. Just have some fun. I love you. I hope you’re having a wonderful day. It is a beautiful day to have fun is all I’m going to say to you today. I will see you next week. We have a very cool series coming up, which you are going to love, so stick around. I’ll see you next week.

Today, we’re going to talk about the 15 depression symptoms you may not know about. My hope is that it will help you, number one, understand your symptoms, and number two, get help faster. Let’s do this. Let’s get started.  I hope you are well. I hope you are kind and gentle to yourself today. I hope you are taking moments to notice that the trees are changing, the leaves are changing, and spring is here. If you’re in the Northern Hemisphere, maybe the weather is changing. Also, if you’re in the southern hemisphere, my lovely friends in Australia, I just want to remind you to stop and take note of the weather. It can be one of the most mindful activities we engage in, and it can help us be grounded in the present instead of thinking forward, thinking backward, and ruminating on the past and the future.  I hope you can take a minute. We can take a breath right here... and you can actually take in this present moment before we get started.  Today, we’re talking about 15 depression symptoms you may not know about. As I said in the intro, my hope is that these symptoms help you understand what’s going on for you if you’re depressed or help you get help faster.  Mnemonic For Depression Symptoms Now, some of you may really have a good understanding of depression symptoms. Some of you may know the common ways that it shows up, so I will first address those just to make sure you’ve got a basic understanding of common depression symptoms. I’m going to actually give you a mnemonic for depression symptoms. I find it’s very helpful to have this on hand when I’m assessing my clients and my patients. It’s a really good check-in even for myself like, what’s going on? Could this be depression? Let’s go through this mnemonic for depression.  D is for depressed mood. I think we all know about that one. That’s a very common Hollywood way of understanding people who are sad, feeling very down, and so forth. We mostly all know the D for depression.  E is for energy loss and fatigue. In fact, I did a poll on Instagram. For those of you who don’t follow me, go ahead and follow me @youranxietytoolkit. I did a poll and I asked, what are the most painful parts of depression, and the most common response was complete fatigue, complete exhaustion, just overwhelming tiredness and energy loss. I think that that’s a really common one. It can be confusing because you’re like, “What’s going on?” It makes you feel like maybe there’s a medical condition going on, but often it is depression. The P is for pleasure loss. Now, this is an important one that we look for in clinical work as we’re looking for. Is the person with depression completely at a loss and they’re not enjoying the things they used to? Are they struggling to get joy out of even the most joyful things that they used to find joyful? That’s a very common one.  The R is for retardation or excitation. What we’re talking about there is moving very slowly, like a sloth pace or even just sitting there and staring and unable to move your body completely, inability to get motivated to move. Excitation is the other one, which is like you feel very jittery and you feel very on edge and so forth.  The E is for eating changes such as appetite increase or decrease, or weight increase or decrease. Again, common symptoms for depression.  The S is for sleep changes. It is very common for people with depression to either want to sleep or need to sleep all day, again, because of that energy loss. Or they lay awake for hours at night staring at the roof, unable to sleep, experiencing sleep anxiety, which can often then impact their sleep rhythm. They’re sleeping all day, staying awake all night, or vice versa, but in a very lethargic way.  The next S is for suicidal thoughts or what we call suicidal ideation. These are thoughts of death, thoughts of dying, and sometimes plans to die. If that is you, please do go and see a mental health professional immediately or go to your ER or call the emergency in whatever country you are. For America, it’s 911. Suicidal thoughts are very, very common with depression. We have two types of suicidal thoughts in depression, and that’s usually passive suicidal thoughts and then active suicidal thoughts. Passive is thoughts of death, but you just want to crawl under a rock and just go to sleep and never wake up. Active suicidal thoughts is where you’re actually wishing to die. It’s important to differentiate, and clinically, we do make some changes depending on which is which.  The I for depression is “I am a failure.” This has a lot to do with shame or loss of confidence and self-esteem issues. “I am a failure” is a big one that often doesn’t get disclosed until the person is in therapy. We even did an episode a couple of weeks ago. Depression Is A Liar was the title. Depression tells you all these lies. It tells you you’re a failure and you start to believe it. It tells you there’s something wrong with you and you start to believe it. That is a very common part of having depression.  The O is “only me to blame,” and this is what we call guilt. With depression, often people will feel guilty for everything, feel guilt & regret all day, every day. “I’m not a good mom,” “I’m not a good friend,” “I’m not a good talk daughter,” “I’m not a good employee,” “I’m not a good boss,” whatever it may be. And then they blame themselves, punish themselves, and a lot.  The N is for no concentration. Again, when I did the poll on Instagram, so many people posted that they just cannot think, they can’t plan, they can’t concentrate, they can’t learn if they’re in school, they can’t stay focused on a conversation. These are all very common symptoms of depression that may be impacting you either a little bit or, in many cases, an immense amount. They’re the most common. That’s a mnemonic for depression symptoms. They’re the most common that we assess for. But now I want to go into the 15 depression symptoms you may not know about.  The way that I’m structuring this podcast episode is I’ve broken it down into different categories of people. But what I want you to recognize before we go down is these are not specific to only these categories of people because it depends on the person. We have to be very person-centered when it comes to looking at depression and diagnosing depression and treating depression because there’s no one way to have depression. I don’t want to miscategorize any of this. I’m just talking very generally, so I want to give a disclaimer as I go through these different categories or groups of people. Please note that it’s probably true for everybody. It’s just more common in these groups.  Before we get started, I want to remind you. I know I did an announcement. I want to remind you, the Overcoming Depression Course is going live on March 11th. This is very exciting. This is a live online course that I am teaching live on Zoom. I will be teaching you over the course of three different weekends on Saturday mornings from 9:00 to 10:30 on March 11th, March 18th, and March 25th, 2023. If you want to sign up and come and learn from me, I’ll be going through five major areas in which you can make changes related to depression. I will be giving you all of this psychoeducation upfront. There will be a workbook that you can use on your own to really put the skills and tools and strategies into place. If you’re interested in joining us, may I say again live, head on over to CBTSchool.com/Depression. It’ll take you to the page. You can sign up there and then I will send you via email all of the information you need to be there for our live conversations. You can ask questions in the chat box. My hope is to double down with motivating you, inspiring you, educating you, and getting you feeling a little more confident on what to do if you’re struggling with these symptoms. My hope is to help you see that depression is a liar and you can break free!  Here we go.  Depression Symptoms In Men Again, I’m speaking generally here, and I really want to be careful here because it’s definitely not just men who experienced this, but I did a lot of research for this episode and these were the statistics that I found to be most common in these areas.  Anger, irritability, or aggressiveness That’s not in the mnemonic for depression that we went over. A lot of times people miss this core symptom, which is anger, irritability, or aggressiveness. Now, is it only men? Absolutely not. I want to be really clear here, that is absolutely not the case, but I think because of the stigma for men around showing sadness or showing depression, they have shown that men tend to express it in a different way, because sometimes men don’t feel comfortable crying in public with their friends or loved ones. Not always true. Again, I’m going to keep saying not always, but I think that’s a cultural expectation put on men and therefore it does come out when in the form of anger, irritability, or aggressiveness. Irritability is a huge one when it comes to depression that I have seen clinically.  Problems with sexual desire and performance This is, again, not just for men, but common in the research for men is common problems with sexual desire and performance. A lot of men and women, but again, I don’t want to be excluding anyone here, have found that they either have a massive lack of sexual desire or struggle to reach arousal, struggle to reach orgasm. We are going to be addressing this in-depth here in the next couple of months and I’m going to put a lot of energy into making sure we address how much it impacts people and sex. Stick around for that. I’m super excited. But there is another common depression symptom you may not know about. Sometimes we think it’s anxiety that causes that, but it’s not just anxiety; it can be depression too.  Engaging in high-risk activities Again, not just for men, but it has been shown to be more prevalent in men. High-risk activities, spending a lot of money, driving fast in cars, gambling, drug use, and so forth. Again, not just in men, but this is another common depression symptom you may not know about and maybe diagnosed and put in a different category when really the person is deeply depressed and trying to feel pleasure. Remember we talked about the mnemonic P is for pleasure loss. Often we engage in these high-risk activities because we’re just desperate to feel that sense of pleasure and exhilaration again.  A need for alcohol or drugs Again, not just men and I will discuss this in other categories as well, but it is common that an increased use of alcohol and drugs could be a sign that you are getting an increased level of depression. Then what happens is when you’re using a lot of alcohol and drugs, you usually have a hangover or some kind of side effect to that which makes you feel more depressed, which then makes you feel more like you need to have more alcohol and drugs. Again, it’s a cycle that can really cause a lot of chaos in people’s life and could be simply the first symptom or way to cope with depression.  Depression Symptoms In Women Women are twice as likely to develop depression than men. That’s a statistic I didn’t know. Up to 1 in 4 women are likely to have major depressive disorder or major depression at some point in their life. 1 in 4, that is so high. We have to make sure we’re catching people and helping people with this massive issue.  Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder Prementstrual Dysphoric Disorder involves a massive influx of depressive symptoms right before your period or at specific stages of your menstrual cycle. Very common. In fact, again, we’re going to be addressing this very soon on the podcast as well. These are some areas I feel like I have completely missed as your podcast host, so I want to really make sure we’re targeting and addressing these issues as we move forward.  Perinatal Depression Perinatal depression occurs around pregnancy before or after pregnancy starts.  Perimenopausal Depression Perimenopausal depression is around the menopausal period for people going into menopause.  These are common symptoms of depression that get missed all the time or get misdiagnosed or underdiagnosed when the person is really suffering.  A lot of people who follow me have said they’ve gone to their doctor to share how they get this massive influx of depression before their period or in their cycle, and the doctor has blown them off and said, “Eat more celery juice,” or “Exercise more.” While, yes, exercising can be helpful for depression, we are missing a major depression symptom, and I want you to be informed about those. Depression Symptoms In Kids Oh, the kiddos. It’s so hard on the kiddos. In fact, one of the reasons I have been so hyped on talking about depression was, in August of last year, my daughter went in for her yearly checkup with her pediatrician and the pediatrician insisted on doing all of these mental checklists with her. I was saying to her, “Is this really necessary? She’s doing fine. To what degree are you scaring her?” She said, “Oh, you have no idea the degree of depression in children since COVID.” “I had no idea and I’m a mental health professional. How did I not know this?” She said, “Yeah, it’s everywhere in kids, and kids are really good at hiding it.” I literally sank in my chair like, “How did I miss this? How did I not know this?” We talked about it a lot and I think it’s really important that we understand that depression symptoms in kids often look like what we call in some societies like naughty kids. Again, let’s go through them.  Big emotional outbursts  When we see kids on the playground having big outbursts, big anger responses, again, we talked about that before, sometimes they get labeled as the naughty kids. Well, guess what? We’ve got to make sure we check to make sure they’re not depressed. Because that is a symptom of depression.  Difficulty initiating and maintaining social relationships Again, after COVID, a lot of parents I’ve heard have said, “Oh, I think they just lost their ability to make friends during COVID,” which I totally get. We had to train my son after COVID to follow basic social cues because he hadn’t seen people in so long. But again, we have to keep an eye on whether this is a symptom of depression in children.  Extreme sensitivity to rejection or failure This one is so important not just for kids, but for teens, adults, everyone. With depression, we all have sensitivity to rejection of failure. No one wants that. But often a symptom of depression is extreme sensitivity and absolute devastation about getting rejected for, let’s say, a school play or to be picked in soccer or they had a big issue with a test or so forth. They have a strong, strong reaction to that.  Frequent absences from school and/or a sudden decline in grades If kids got a massive decline in grades or they started refusing to go to school, my instinct is to always say, “Oh, there’s some anxiety going on. They’re anxious. They don’t want to go to school, they must be ‘avoiding school’ because of anxiety as a compulsion.” Well, guess what? It could be depression, and let’s make sure we assess these kiddos correctly. This is true for adults as well. If we’re depressed, we don’t want to go out, we don’t want to go to the show on Friday night, we don’t want to hang out with friends. That makes sense as well.  Depression With Somatic Symptoms This is probably the most important one. Very common symptoms of depression include headaches, stomach ache, muscle pain, sore back. These are very common physical symptoms of depression and ones that we have to make sure that we aren’t ignoring to make sure that they get the care. A lot of people go into the medical system complaining of physical symptoms only to find out that nothing is wrong and they can’t understand it, and it could be depression. Not always—please always go and get a medical checkup—but it could be.  Depression Symptoms In Teens All of the symptoms I’ve shared above could be present in teens as well. Like I said, these are not categories that are only just for these categorical lots of people.  General overwhelming sense of apathy Commonly with teens is this general overwhelming sense of apathy like, “I don’t care. I don’t care about you, I don’t care about me, I don’t care about school.” Often parents can interpret this as like, “Oh my god, my kid is horrible.” But again, we have to make sure we’re assessing for depression first. Excessive guilt I did have that as the mnemonic under O (only me to blame), but this shows up a lot in kids and teens—excessive saying I’m sorry, excessive apologizing, feeling hyper-responsible for everything that happens, feeling hyper-responsible for the social issues and drama that’s happening at school, ruminating a lot about that. Again, this is common for anybody, very common for anybody with depression as well, but with teens, it really does start to spike.  Preoccupation with death or on death Again, this could be true for other categories or any human being, but we do see it show up a lot in teens—a preoccupation on death regarding movies, music, shows, or books they’re reading. Just really a heavy focus on things related to death or very dark, dark topics, aggressive topics. This can play out in many ways. Again, it could also be very normal behavior and that could be something that brings them great pleasure. But again, I’m only bringing it up because these are common unknown depression symptoms that you don’t possibly know could be a symptom of depression. I think it’s better to be educated than to ignore it and not know.  That’s the 15 depression symptoms you may not know about. One thing to consider, and I did touch on this during the episode, is commonly we have to look at depression symptoms versus anxiety symptoms. The truth is, many of these are also symptoms of anxiety. Let’s go through some of them. Anger, irritability, aggressiveness—true for anxiety. Sexual desire—true for anxiety, engaging in high-risk activities—true for anxiety. A need for alcohol and drugs—true for anxiety. We do notice some perinatal symptoms and perimenopausal symptoms impact anxiety as well, but we’re specifically weren’t speaking to those today. But if we move into the kids category: outbursts, difficulty maintaining relationships, sensitivity to failure, frequent absences, somatic symptoms, guilt, apathy, preoccupation—these are also very common in anxiety.  What I want you to leave with today is this: Take everything you learnt today. I hope that this didn’t create more anxiety for you. Just take it as knowledge. Take it as something you now know so that you can be an informed consumer, an informed patient, an informed client with your therapist so that you can know. I will say, if I’m speaking completely vulnerably, reading all the research I did made me very anxious because I have a close to teen child and I was thinking, oh my gosh, what happens if this starts to go down this track and looking at the statistics of suicide and so forth. It is anxiety provoking. But what I did in that moment—and if this helps you, I hope it does—is I said to myself, “Kimberley, you’re better to be informed and practice not ruminating and doing mental compulsions about this and catastrophizing than you are to not know at all.” Here I have an opportunity to practice all of the response prevention skills, the mindfulness skills, the self-compassion skills that I have in my tool belt and that you hopefully have in your tool belt if you’ve been a long-term listener here on Your Anxiety Toolkit. We’re going to use those tools to help us manage this, but we’re going to practice being an informed consumer here. I hope this has been helpful. They are the 15 depression symptoms you may not know about and now you know.  Thank you, guys. I’m so happy to be here with you today. Stick around because some pretty exciting things are coming up. A lot of you know we had the mental compulsion series last year. This year, we are having a full sexual health related to mental health series that is just around the corner. It is going to be so incredible. I have some amazing doctors, psychiatrists, sex therapists, educators coming on to talk specifically with you around specific issues, around sexual health related to anxiety and depression. I’m so, so excited, so proud, and so honored to get to do this work with you.  All right, I’m going to hit the road. Have a wonderful day. It is a beautiful day to do hard things, and I’ll see you next week.

In this episode, we are talking about the emotional toll of OCD.  Kim: Welcome back, everybody. This week is going to include three of some of my most favorite people on this entire planet. We have the amazing Chris Trondsen, Alegra Kastens, and Jessica Serber—all dear friends of mine—on the podcast. This is the first time I’ve done an episode with more than one guest.  Now, this was actually a presentation that the four of us did at multiple IOCDF conferences. It was a highly requested topic. We were talking a lot about trauma and OCD, shame and OCD, the stigma of OCD, guilt and OCD, and the depression and grief that goes with OCD. After we presented it, it actually got accepted to multiple different conferences, so we all agreed, after doing it multiple times and having such an amazing turnout, that we should re-record the entire conversation and have it on the podcast. I’m so grateful for the three of them. They all actually join me on Super Bowl Sunday—I might add—to record this episode. I am going to really encourage you to drop down into your vulnerable self and listen to what they have to say, and note the validation and acknowledgment that they give throughout the episode. It is a deep breath. That’s what this episode is.  Before we get into this show, let me just remind you again that we are recording live the Overcoming Depression course this weekend. On March 11th, March 18th, and March 25th, at 9:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, I will be recording the Overcoming Depression course. I am doing it live this time. If you’re interested in coming on live as I record it, you can ask your questions, you can work along with me. There’ll be workbooks. I’ll be giving you a lot of strategies and a lot of tools to help you overcome depression.  If you’re interested, go to CBTSchool.com/depression. We will be meeting again, three dates in March, starting tomorrow, the 11th of March, at 9:00 AM Pacific Time. You will need to sign up ahead of time. But if for any reason you miss one of them, you can watch the replay. The replays will be uploaded. You’ll have unlimited on-demand access to any of them. You’ll get to hear me answering people’s questions. This is the first time I’ve ever recorded a course live. I really felt it was so important to do it live because I knew people would have questions and I wanted to address them step by step in a manageable, bite-sized way. Again, CBTSchool.com/depression, and I will see you there. Let’s get over to this incredible episode.  Again, thank you, Chris Trondsen. Thank you, Alegra Kastens. Thank you, Jessica Serber. It is an honor to call you my friend and my colleague. Enjoy everybody.  Kim: Welcome. This has been long, long. I’ve been waiting so long to do this and I’m so thrilled. This is my first time having multiple guests at once. I have three amazing guests. I’m going to let them introduce themselves. Jessica, would you like to go first? Jessica: I’m Jessica Serber. I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I have a practice specializing in the treatment of OCD and related anxiety and obsessive-compulsive spectrum disorders in Los Angeles. I’m super passionate about working with OCD because my sister has OCD and I saw her get her life back through treatment. So, I have so much hope for everyone in this treatment process. Kim: Fantastic. So happy to have you. Chris? Chris: Hi everyone. My name is Chris Trondsen. I am also a licensed marriage family therapist here in Orange County, California at a private group practice. Besides being a therapist, I also have OCD myself and body dysmorphic disorder, both of which I specialize in treatment. Because of that, I’m passionate about advocacy. I am one of the lead advocates for the International OCD Foundation, as well as on their board and the board of OCD Southern California, as well as some leadership on some of their special interest groups. Kind of full circle for me, have OCD and now treat it. Kim: Amazing. Alegra? Alegra: My name is Alegra Kastens and I am a licensed therapist in the states of California and New York. I’m the founder of the Center for OCD, Anxiety and Eating Disorders. Like Chris, I have lived experience with OCD, anxiety, eating disorders, and basically everything, so I’m very passionate. We got a lot going on up here. I’m really passionate about treating OCD, educating, advocating for the disorder, and that is what propelled me to pursue a career as a therapist and then also to build my online platform, @obsessivelyeverafter on Instagram. GRIEF AND OCD Kim: Amazing. We have done this presentation before, actually, multiple times over the years. I feel like an area that I want to drop into as deeply as we can today to really look at the emotional toll of having and experiencing and recovering from OCD. We’re going to have a real conversation style here. But first, we’ll follow the format that we’ve used in the past. Let’s first talk about grief and OCD because I think that that seems to be a lot of the reason we all came together to present on this. Alegra, would you talk specifically about some of the losses that result from having OCD? I know this actually was inspired by an Instagram post that you had put out on Instagram, so do you want to share a little bit about what those emotional losses are?  Alegra: For sure. I think that number one, what a lot of people with OCD experience is what feels like a loss of identity. When OCD really attacks your values, attacks your core as a human being, whether it’s pedophile obsession, sexual orientation obsessions, harm obsessions, you really start to grieve the person that you once thought you were. Of course, nothing has actually changed about you, but because of OCD, it really feels like it has. In addition to identity, there’s lost relationships, there’s lost time, lost experiences. For me, I dropped out of my bachelor’s degree and I didn’t get the four years of undergrad that a lot of people experienced. I mean, living with OCD is one of the most debilitating, difficult things to do. And that means, if you’re fighting this battle and trying to survive, you probably are missing out on life and developmental milestones. Kim: Right. Was that the case for you too, Chris? Chris: Yeah. I actually host a free support group for families and one of the persons with OCD was speaking yesterday talking about how having OCD was single-handedly the most negatively impactful experience in his life. He is dealt with a lot of loss. I feel the same way. It’s just not something you could shake off and recover from in the sense of just pretending nothing happened. I know for me, the grief was hard. I mean, I had mapped out what I thought my life was going to look like. I think my first stage of grief, because I think it became two stages, my first, like Alegra said, was about the loss. I always wanted to go to college and be around people in my senior year, like make friends and things like that. It’s just my life became smaller and smaller. I became housebound. I missed out on normal activities, and six years of my life were pretty much spent alone.  I think what Alegra also alluded to, which was the second layer of grief, was less about the things that I lost, but who I became. I didn’t recognize myself in those years with OCD. I think it’s hard to explain to somebody else what it’s like to literally not live as yourself. I let things happen to me or I did things that I would never do in the mind state that I am in now. I was always such a brave and go-for-it kind of person and confident and I just became a shell of myself. I grieve a lot of the years lost, a lot of the things I always wanted to do, and places I wanted to go. And then I grieve the person I became because it was nothing I ever thought I could become. Kim: Jessica, will you speak also to just the events that people miss out on? I don’t know if you want to speak about what you see with your clients or even with your sibling, like just the milestones that they missed and the events they missed. Jessica: Yeah, absolutely. My sister was really struggling the most with her OCD during middle school and high school. Those are such formative years, to begin with. I would say, she was on the fortunate end of the spectrum of being diagnosed relatively early on in her life. I mean, she definitely had symptoms from a very, very young age, but still, getting that diagnosis in middle school is so much before a lot of people get that. I mean, I work with people who aren’t diagnosed until their twenties, thirties, and sometimes even later. Different things that most adolescents would go through she didn’t.  Speaking to the identity piece that Alegra brought up, a big part of her identity was being a sports fan. She was a diehard Clippers fan, and that’s how everyone knew her. It was like her claim to fame. She didn’t even want to go to Clippers games. My dad was trying to get tickets to try to get her excited about something to get out of the house. She missed certain events in high school because it was too anxiety-provoking to go and it was more comforting to know she could stay in the safety of the home. Their experiences all throughout the lifespan, I think that can be impacted. Even if you’re not missing out on them entirely, a lot of people talk about remembering those experiences as tainted by the memories of OCD, even if they got to go experience them. Kim: Right. For me, as a clinician, I often hear two things. One is the client will say something to the likes of, “I’ve lost my way. I was going in this direction and I’ve completely lost the path I was supposed to go on.” I think that is a full grief process. I think we’ve associated grief with the death of people, but it’s not. It’s deeper than that and it’s about like you’re talking about, identity and events and occasions.  The other thing that I hear is—actually, we can go totally off script here in terms of we’ve talked about this in the past separately—people think that once they’re recovered, they will live a really happy life and that they’ll feel happy now. Like, “Oh, the relief is here, I’ve recovered.”  But I think there is a whole stage of grief that follows during recovery and then after recovery. Do you have any thoughts on that, anybody?  Alegra: Well, yeah. I think it reminds me a lot of even my own experience, but my client’s experiences of when you recover, there tends to be grief about life before OCD. If I’m being perfectly honest, my life will just never be what it was before OCD, and it’s different and wonderful in so many ways that maybe it wouldn’t be if I didn’t have OCD. But I’m laughing because when you were like, “I’m going to mark my calendar in July because you’re probably going to have a relapse,” then I have to deal with it every six months. My brain just goes off for like two weeks. I don’t know why it happens. It’s just my OCD brain, and there’s grief associated with that. I can go for six months and I have some intrusive thoughts, but it doesn’t really do anything to me to write back in it for two weeks. That’s something I have to deal with and I have to get to that acceptance place in the grieving process. I’m not going to have the brain that I did before OCD when I didn’t have a single unwanted sexual thought. That just isn’t happening. I think we think that we’re going to get to this place after recovery, and it’s like game over, I forget everything that happened in the past, but we have to remember that OCD can be traumatizing for people. Trauma is stored in the body. The brain is impacted and I think that we can carry that with us afterwards. Kim: Right. Chris: Yeah. I mean, everything that Alegra was saying—I’ll never forget. I always joke, but I thought when treatment was done, rainbows were going to shoot out and butterflies. I was going to jump on my very own unicorn and ride off to the sunset. But it was like a bomb had gone off and I had survived the blast, but everything around me was completely pulverized. I just remember thinking, what do I do now? I remember going on social media to look up some of my friends from high school because my OCD got really, really bad after high school. I just remember everybody was starting to date or marry or travel and move on and I’m like, “Great, I live in my grandma’s basement. I don’t have anything on my calendar. I’m not dating, I don’t have any friends. What do I do?” I was just completely like, “Okay, I don’t even know where to begin.” I felt so lost. Anything I did just didn’t feel right. Like Alegra said, there was so much aftermath that I had to deal with. I had to deal with the fact that I was lost and confused and I was angry and I had all these emotions. I had these memories of just driving around.  As part of my OCD, I had multiple subtypes—sexual intrusive thoughts, harm thoughts. I remember contamination, stores around me would get dirty, so I’d be driving hours to buy products from non-dirty stores at 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning, crying outside of a store because they were closed or didn’t have the product I need, getting home and then my checking would kick in. You left something at the store, driving back. You just put yourself through all these different things that are just not what you would ever experience.  I see it with my clients. One client sticks in mind who was in his eighties and after treatment, getting better. He wasn’t happy and he is like, “I’m so happy, Chris. You helped me put OCD in remission. But I now realize that I never got married because I was scared of change. I never left the house that I hated in the city I didn’t really like because I was afraid of what would happen if I moved.” He’s like, “I basically lived my OCD according to OCD’S rules and I’m just really depressed about that.” I know we’re going to talk about the positive sides and how to heal in the second half, but this is just really what OCD can ravish on our lives. Kim: Right.  Jessica: If I can add one thing too really quickly, something I really think is a common experience too is that once healing happens, even if people do get certain parts of their lives back and feel like they can function again in the ways that they want to, there’s always this sense of foreboding joy, that it feels good and I’m happy, but I’m just waiting for the other shoe to drop all the time. Or what if I go back to how I was and I lose all my progress? Even when there are those periods of joy and happiness and fulfillment, they might also be accompanied with some anxiety and some what-ifs. Of course, we can work on that and should work on that in treatment too because we want to maximize those periods of joy as much as we can. But that’s something that I commonly see, that the anxiety sticks around just in different ways. OCD, SHAME, & GUILT Kim: Yeah, for sure. I see that very commonly too. Let’s talk now about OCD, shame, and guilt. I’ll actually go straight to you, Jessica, because I remember you speaking about this beautifully. Can you explain the difference between shame and guilt specifically related to how it may show up with OCD?  Jessica: Yeah. I mean, they’re definitely related feelings but they are different. I think the simplest way to define the difference is guilt says, “I did something bad,” whereas shame says, “I am bad.” Shame is really an identity-based emotion and we see a lot of shame with any theme of OCD. It can show up in lots of different ways, but definitely with some of the themes that are typically classified as Pure O—the sexual intrusive thoughts or unwanted harm thoughts, scrupulosity, blasphemous thoughts. There can be a lot of shame around a person really identifying with their thoughts and what it means about them. Attaching that, meaning about what it means about them. And then of course, there can also be guilt, which I think feels terrible as well, but it’s like a shame light where it’s like, “I did something wrong by having this thought,” or just guilt for maybe something that they’ve thought or a compulsion that they’ve done because of their OCD.  Kim: Yeah. I’ve actually also experienced a lot of clients saying they feel guilty because of the impact their OCD has had on their loved ones too. They’re suffering to the biggest degree, but they’re also carrying the guilt of like, “I’ve caused suffering to my family,” or “I’m a financial burden to my parents with the therapy and the psychiatrist.” I think that there’s that secondary guilt that shows up for a lot of people as well, which we can clump in as an outcome or a consequence or an experience of having OCD. Chris: Yeah. I mean, right before you said this, Kim, I was thinking for me personally, that was literally what I was going to say. I have a younger sister. She’s a couple of years younger than me and I just put her through hell. She was one of the first people that just felt the OCD’s wrath because I was so stressed out. She and I shared a lot of the same spaces in the home, so we’d have a lot of fights. Also, when I was younger, because she looks nothing like me—she actually looks more like you, Kim, blonde hair, blue eyes—people didn’t know we were related. People would always say things like, “Oh, is that your girlfriend?” So then I’d have a lot of ancestral intrusive thoughts that caused a lot of harm to me, so I’d get mad at her. Because I was young, I didn’t know better. And then just the hell I put my mom through.  I always think about just like, wow, once again, that’s not who Chris is. I would jump in front of eight bullets for both my mom and my sister. I remember one time I needed something because I felt dirty, and my mom hit our spending money so that if there was an emergency. My sister knew where it was and she wouldn’t give it to me. I remember taking a lighter and lighting it and being like, “I’ll burn your hair if you don’t give me the money,” because I was so desperate to buy it because that’s how intense the OCD was. I remember she and I talking about that and it just feels like a different human. Once again, it’s more than just guilt. It’s shame of who I had become because of it and not even recognizing the boy I was now compared to the man I am now, way than man now. OCD AND ANGER Kim: One thing we haven’t talked a lot about, but Chris, you just spoke to it, and I’ve actually been thinking about this a lot. Let’s talk about OCD and anger because I think that is another emotional toll of OCD. A lot of clients I’ve had—even just recently, I’ve been thinking about this a lot—sometimes instead of doing compulsions, they have an anger outburst or maybe as well as compulsions. Does anyone want to speak to those waves of frustration and anger that go around these thoughts that we have or intrusive whatever obsessions in any way, but in addition, the compulsions you feel you have to do when you have OCD? Alegra: I feel like sometimes there can be maybe a deeper, more painful emotion that’s underneath that anger, which can be shame or it can be guilt, but it feels like anger is maybe easier to express. But also, there just is inherent anger that comes up with having to live with this. I remember one time in my own personal therapy, my therapist was trying to relate and she pulled out this picture that she had like an, I don’t know, eight-year-old client with OCD and was like, “She taps herself a lot.” I screamed at her at that moment. I was like, “Put that fucking picture away, and don’t ever show that to me again. I do not want to be compared to an eight-year-old who taps himself, like I will tap myself all day fucking long, so long as I don’t have these sexually unwanted thoughts about children.” I was so angry at that moment because it just felt like what I was dealing with was so much more taboo and shameful. I was angry a lot of the time. I don’t think we can answer the question of, why? Why did I have to experience this? Why did someone else not have to experience this? And that anger is valid.  The other thing that I want to add is that anger does not necessarily mean that we are now going to act on our obsessions because I think clients get very afraid of that. I remember one time I was so fucking pissed at my coworker. He was obnoxious when I worked in PR, and I was so mad at him, I had to walk outside and regulate. And then instantly, of course, my brain went, “You want his kid to die?” or whatever it was. I felt like, oh my God, I must really want this to happen because I’m mad at him. In terms of anger, we can both feel angry and not align with unwanted thoughts that arise. CAN OCD CAUSE ANGER ISSUES?  Kim: Right. OCD can attack the emotions that you experience, like turn it back on you. It’s funny, I was doing a little bit of research for this and I typed in ‘OCD in anger.’ I was looking to see what was out there. What was so fascinating to me is, you know when you type something in on Google, it shows all of the other things that are commonly typed in. At the very top was ‘Can OCD cause anger issues?’ I was like, that is so interesting, that obviously, loved ones or people with OCD are searching for this because it’s so normal, I think, to have a large degree of just absolute rage over what you’ve been through, how much you’ve suffered, just the torment and what’s been lost, as we’ve already talked about. I just thought that was really fascinating to see, that that’s obviously something that people are struggling with.  Chris: When you think about it, when we’re struggling with OCD, the parts of our brain that are trying to protect us are on fire or on high alert. If you always think about that, I always think of a feral dog. If you’re trying to get him help, then he starts to bite. That’s how I honestly felt. My anger was mostly before I was diagnosed, and once again, like I said, breaking things at home, screaming, yelling at my family, intimidating them, and stuff. I know that once again, that wasn’t who I am at the course. When I finally got a diagnosis, I know for me, the anger dissipated. I was still angry, but the outbursts and the rage, and I think the saddest thing I hear from a lot of my clients is they tell me, I think people think I’m this selfish and spoiled and bratty and angry person. I’m not. I just cannot get a break.  I always remind parents that as your loved one or spouses, et cetera—as your loved one gets better, that anger will subside. It won’t vanish, it won’t disappear, it may change into different emotions, like Alegra was saying, to guilt and to shame and loss of identity. But that rage a lot of times is because we just don’t know what to do and we feel attacked constantly with OCD.  Kim: Yeah. Jessica: I also want to validate the piece that anger is a really natural and normal stage of grief. I like that you’re differentiating, Chris, between the rage that a lot of people experience in it versus maybe just a different type of anger that can show up after when you recognize how—I think, Alegra, you brought up—we can’t answer the question of, why did this happen to me? Or “I missed out on all these times or years of my life that I can’t get back.” Anger is not a problem. It’s not an issue when it shows up like that. It’s actually a very healthy natural part of grief. We want to obviously process it in ways that really honor that feeling and tend to that feeling in a helpful way. I just wanted to point out that part as well. DO YOU CONSIDER HAVING OCD A TRAUMATIC EVENT?    Kim: Yeah, very, very helpful. This is for everybody and you can chime in, but I wanted to just get a poll even. Alegra spoke on this a little bit already. Do you consider having OCD a traumatic event? Alegra: A hundred thousand percent. I’m obviously not going to trauma dump on all of you all, but boy, would I love to. I have had quite a few of what’s classified as big T traumas, which I even hate the differentiation of big T, sexual assault, abuse, whatever. I have had quite a bit of big T traumas and I have to say that OCD has been the most traumatizing thing I have been through and I think we’ll ever go through. It bothers me how much I think gatekeeping can happen in our community. Like, no, it’s only trauma if you’ve been assaulted, it’s only trauma if X, Y, and Z. I have a lot of big T trauma and I’m here to say that OCD hands down, like I would go through all of that big T trauma 15 times over to not have OCD, 100%. I think Chris can just add cherries to the cake, whatever that phrase is. Chris: Yeah. This is actually how the title, the Emotional Toll of OCD, came about. We had really talked about this. I was really inspired mainly by Alegra talking about the trauma of OCD and I was like, finally, someone put the right word because I always felt that other words didn’t really speak to my personal experience and the experience I see with clients. We had submitted it for a talk and it got denied. I remember they liked it so much that they literally had a meeting with you and I, Kim, and we’re like, “We actually really love this. We just got to figure out a way to change it.” Like Alegra was saying, a lot of the people that were part of a trauma special interest group just said, “Look, we can’t be using the word ‘trauma’ like this.” But we had a good talk about it. It’s like, I do believe it’s trauma. I always feel weird talking about him because sometimes he listens to my stuff, but still, I’ll say it anyways. But my dad will hopefully be the first to admit it. But there were a lot of physical altercations between he and I that were inappropriate—physical abuse, emotional abuse, yelling, screaming. Like Alegra said, I would relive that tenfold than go through the depths of my OCD again where I attempted suicide, where I isolated, where I didn’t even recognize myself.  If ‘trauma’ isn’t the correct word, we only watered it down to emotional toll just to make DSM-5 folks happy. But if ‘trauma’ isn’t the word, I don’t know what is, because like I said, trauma was okay to describe the pain I went through childhood, but in my personal experience, it failed in comparison to the trauma that I went through with OCD.  Alegra: I also want to add something. Maybe I’m wrong, but if I’m thinking about the DSM definition, I think it’s defining post-traumatic stress disorder. I don’t think it’s describing trauma specifically. Maybe I’m wrong, but it’s criteria for PTSD. I will be the first to say and none of you have to agree. I think that you can have PTSD from living with OCD. DSM-wise diagnostically, you can’t. But I think when people are like, “Well, that’s not the definition of trauma in the DSM,” no, they’re defining PTSD. It’s like, yeah, some people have anxiety and don’t have an anxiety disorder. You can experience trauma and not have full-blown PTSD. That’s my understanding of it. Kim: Yeah. It’s funny because I don’t have OCD, so I am an observer to it. What I think is really interesting is I can be an observer to someone who’s been through, like you’ve talked about, a physical assault or a sexual assault and so forth, and they may report I’m having memories of the event and wake up with the physiology of my heart beating and thoughts racing. But then I’ll have clients with OCD who will have these vivid memories of having to wash their hands and the absolute chaos of, “I can’t touch this. Oh my God, please don’t splash the water on me,” Memories of that and nightmares of that and those physiological experiences. They’re remembering the events that they felt so controlled and so stuck in. That’s where for me, I was, with Chris, really advocating for. These moments imprint our brain right in such a deep way. Alegra: Yeah. I’m reading this book, not to tell everyone to buy this book, but it’s by Dr. Bruce Perry and he does a bunch of research on trauma and the brain. Basically, the way that he describes it is like when we experience something and it gets associated. Let’s say, for instance, there are stores that I could go to and I could still feel that very visceral feeling that I did when I was suffering. Part of that is how trauma is stored in the brain. Even if you logically know I’m not in that experience now, I’m not in the war zone or I’m not in the depths of my OCD suffering, just the store, let’s say, being processed through the lower part of your brain can bring up all of those associations. So, it does do something to the brain. Kim: Right.  Chris: Absolutely. I was part of a documentary and it was the first time I went back to the home that I had attempted suicide, and the police got called the hospital and all that. It was a bad choice. They didn’t push me into it. It was my idea because I haven’t gone back there, had no clue how I’d react and I broke down. I mean, broke down in a dry heaving way that I never knew I could and we had to stop filming and we left. Where I was at my worst of OCD was there and also at my grandma’s house because that’s where I moved right after the suicide attempt. I’d have people around me, and still going down to the basement area that I lived in. It is very hard. I rarely do it. So, I have a reaction. To me, it was like, if that isn’t once again trauma, I don’t know what is. Alegra: It is.  Chris: Exactly. I’ll never forget there was a woman that was part of a support group I ran. She was in her seventies and she had gone through cancer twice. I remember her telling the group that she’s like, “I’ll go through cancer a third time before I’ll ever go back to my worst of OCD.” Obviously, we’re not downplaying these other experiences—PTSD, trauma, cancer, horrible things, abuse, et cetera. What we’re saying is that OCD takes a lasting imprint and it’s something that I have not been able to shake. I’ve done so much advocacy, so much therapy, so much as a therapist and I don’t still struggle, but the havoc it has on my life, that’s something I think is going to be imprinted for life. Alegra: Forever. Jessica: Also, part of the definition of trauma is having a life-threatening experience. What you’re speaking to, Chris, you had a suicide attempt during that time. Suicidality is common with OCD. Suicidal ideation, it’s changing your life. I think Alegra, you said, “I’ll never have the life or the brain that I had before OCD.” These things that maybe it’s not, well, some of them are actually about real confrontation with death, but these real life-changing, life-altering experiences that potentially also drive some people to have thoughts or feelings about wanting to not be alive anymore. I just think that element is there. Alegra: That’s so brilliant, Jessica, because that is so true. If we’re thinking about it being life-threatening and life-altering, it was life-threatening for me. I got to the point where I was like, “If something doesn’t change, I will kill myself. I will.” That is life-threatening to a person. I would be driving on the freeway like, “Do I just turn the car? Do I just turn it now? Because I was so just fucking done with what was happening in my brain.” Kim: It feels crisis. Alegra: Yeah. Kim: It’s like you’re experiencing a crisis in that moment, and I think that that’s absolutely valid. Alegra: It’s an extended crisis. For me, it was a crisis of three to four years. I never had a break. Not when I was sleeping. I mean, never. Chris: I was just going to add that I hear in session almost daily, people are like, “If I just don’t wake up tomorrow, I’m fine. I’d never do anything, but if I just don’t wake up tomorrow, I’m fine.” We know this is the norm. The DSM talks about 50% of individuals with OCD have suicidal ideation, 25% will attempt. This is what people are going through as they enter treatment or before treatment. They just feel like, “If I just don’t wake up or if something were to happen to me, I’d actually be at peace with it.” It’s a really alarming number. THE EMOTIONAL TOLL OF OCD TREATMENT Kim: Right. Let’s move. I love everything that you guys are saying and I feel like we’ve really acknowledged the emotional toll really, the many ways that it universally impacts a person emotionally and in all areas of their lives. I’m wondering if you guys could each, one at a time or bounce it off each other, share what you believe are some core ways in which we can manage these emotional tolls, bruises left, or scars left from having OCD? Jessica, do you want to go first?  Jessica: Sure. I guess the first thing that comes to mind is—I’ll speak from the therapist perspective—if you’re a therapist specializing in treating OCD, make sure you leave room to talk about these feelings that we’re bringing up. Of course, doing ERP and doing all of the things to treat OCD is paramount and we want to do that first and foremost if possible. But if you’re not also leaving room for your client to process this grief, process through and challenge their shame, just hold space for the anger and maybe talk about it. Let your client have that anger experience in a safe space. We’re missing a huge, huge part of that person’s healing if we’re leaving that out. Maybe I’ll piggyback on what you two say, but that’s just the baseline that I wanted to put out there. Chris: I could go next. I would say the first thing is what Jess said. We have to treat the whole person. I think it’s great when a client’s Y-BOCS score has gone down and symptomology is not a daily impact. However, all the things that we talked about, we aren’t unicorns. This is what many of our clients are going through and there has to be space for the therapist to validate, to address, and to help heal. I would say the biggest thing that I believe moves you past where we’ve been talking about is re-identity formation. We just don’t recognize until you get better how nearly every single decision we make is based off of our OCD fears, that some way or another, what we listen to, how we speak, what direction we drive, what we buy. I mean, everything we do is, will the OCD be okay with this? Will this harm me, et cetera?  One of the things I do with all my clients before I complete treatment is I start to help them figure out who they are. I say, “Let’s knock everything we know. What are the parts of yourself that you organically feel are you and you love? Let’s flourish those. Let’s water those. Let’s help those grow. What are some other things that you would be doing if OCD hadn’t completely ransacked your life? Do you spend time with family? Are you somebody that wants to give back to communities? What things do you like to do when you’re alone?” I help clients and it was something I did after my own treatment, like re-fall in love and be impressed with yourself and start to rebuild. I tell clients, one of the things that helped me flip it and I try to do it with them is instead of looking at it like, “This is hard, this is tough,” look at it as an opportunity. We get to take that pause, reconnect with ourselves and start to go in a direction that is absolutely going to move as far away from the OCD selves as possible, but also to go to the direction of who we are. Obviously, for me, becoming a therapist and advocate is what’s helped me heal, and not everybody will go that route. But when they’re five months, six months, a year after the hard part of their treatment and they’re doing the things they always picture they could do and reconnecting with the people that they love, I start to see their light grow again and the OCD starts to fade. That’s really the goal.  Alegra: I think something that I’ll add—again, I don’t want to be the controversial one, but maybe I will be—is there might be, yes. Can I get canceled after this in the community? There might be some kind of trauma work that somebody might need to do after OCD treatment, after symptoms are managed, and this is where we need to find nuance. Obviously, treatments like EMDR are not evidence-based for OCD, but if somebody has been really traumatized by OCD, maybe there is some kind of somatic experience, some kind of EMDR, or some kind of whatever it might be to really help work on that emotional impact that might still be affecting the person. It’s important of course to find a therapist who understands OCD, who isn’t reassuring you and you’re falling back into your symptoms. But I have had clients successfully go through trauma therapy for the emotional impact OCD had and said it was tremendously helpful. That might be something to consider as well. If you do all the behavioral work and you still feel like, “I am really in the trenches emotionally,” we might need to add something else in. Chris: I actually don’t think that’s controversial, Alegra. I think that what you’re speaking-- Alegra: I don’t either, but a lot of clinicians do. Jessica: No, I agree. I think a lot of people will, and it’s been a part of my recovery. I don’t talk about a lot for that very reason. But after I was done with treatment, I didn’t feel like I needed an OCD therapist anymore. I was doing extremely well, but all the emotions we’d been talking about, I was still experiencing. I found a clinician nearby because I was going on a four-hour round trip for treatment. I just couldn’t go back to my therapist because of that. She actually worked with a lot of people that lost their lifestyle because of gambling. I went to her and I said, “What really spoke to me is how you help people rebuild their lives. I don’t need to talk about OCD. If I need to, I’ll go back to my old therapist. I need to figure out how to rebuild my life.” That’s really what she did. She helped me work through a lot of the trauma with my dad and even got my dad to come to a session and work through that. We worked through living in the closet for my sexual orientation for so long and how hard coming out was because I came out while I was in the midst of OCD. It was a pretty horrible coming out experience. She helped me really work through that, work through the time lost and feeling behind my peers and I felt like a whole person leaving. I decided, as a clinician, I have to do that for my clients. I can’t let my clients leave like I felt I left. It was no foul to my therapist. We just didn’t talk about these other things.  Now what I’ll say as a clinician is, if I’m working with a client and I feel like I could be the one to help them, I’ll keep them with me. I also know my limitations. Like Alegra was saying, if they had the OCD went down so other traumas came to surface and they’ve dealt with molestation or something like that, I know my limitations, but what I will make sure to do is refer to a clinician that I think can help them because once again, I think treating the whole client is so important.  Kim: Yeah. There’s two things I’ll bring up in addition because I agree with everything you’re saying. I don’t think it’s controversial. In fact, I often will say to my staff who see a lot of my clients, we want to either be doing, like Jessica said, some of the processing as we go or really offer after ERPs. “Do you need more support in this process of going back to the person you want?” That’s a second level of treatment that I think can be super beautiful. As you’re going too with exposures and so forth, you’re asking yourself those questions like, what do I value? Take away OCD, what would I do? A lot of times, people are like, “I have no idea. I have really no idea,” like Chris then. I think that you can do it during treatment. You can also do it after, whichever feels best for you and your clinician.  The other thing that I find shows up for my patients the most is they’ll bring up the shame and the guilt, or they’ll bring up the anger, they’ll bring up the grief. And then there’s this heavy layer of some judgment for having it. There’s this heavy layer as if they don’t deserve to have these emotions. Probably, the thing I say the most is, “It makes complete sense that you feel that way.” I think that we have to remember that. That every emotion that is so strong and almost dysregulating, it makes complete sense that you feel that way given what you’re going through.  I would just additionally say, be super compassionate and non-judgmental for these emotional waves that you’re going to have to ride. I mean, think about the grief. This is the other thing. We don’t go in and then process the grief and then often you’re running. It’s a wave. It’s a process. It’s a journey. It’s going to keep coming and going. I think it’s this readjustment on our thinking, like this is the life goal, the long-term practice now. It’s not a one-and-done. Do you guys have thoughts? Jessica: I think as clinicians, validating that these are absolutely normal experiences and you deserve to be feeling this way is important because I think that sometimes, I don’t think there’s ill intent, but clinicians might gaslight their clients in a certain way by saying, “This isn’t traumatic. This is not trauma. You can feel sad, but it is absolutely not a trauma,” and not validating that for a person can be really painful. I think as clinicians, we need to be open to the emotional impact that OCD has on a person and validate that so we’re not sitting there saying, “Sorry, you can’t use that word. This is not your experience. You can be sad, you can be whatever, but it’s not trauma,” because I have seen that happen. Kim: Or a clinician saying, “It’s not grief because no one died.” Jessica: Yeah. It was just hard. That was it. Get over it.  Kim: Or look at how far you’ve come. Even that, it’s a positive thing to say. It’s a positive thing to say, but I think what we’re all saying is, very much, it makes complete sense. What were you going to say, Jessica? Sorry. Jessica: No. I just wanted to point out this one nuance that I see come up and that I think is important to catch, which is that sometimes there can be grief or shame or all these emotions that we’re talking about, but sometimes those emotions can also become the compulsion themselves at times. Shala Nicely has a really, really good article about this, about how depression itself can become a compulsion, or I’ve seen clients engage in what I refer to as stewing in guilt or excessive guilt or self-punishment. What we want to differentiate is, punishing yourself by stewing in guilt is actually providing some form of covert reassurance about the obsessions. Sometimes we need to process the true emotional experiences that are happening as a result of OCD, but we also want to make sure that we’re on the lookout for self-punishment compulsions and things like that that can mask, or I don’t know. That can come out in response to those feelings, but ultimately are feeding the OCD still. I just wanted to point out that nuance, that if someone feels like, “I’m doing all this processing of my feelings with my therapist, but I’m not getting any better or I’m actually feeling worse,” we want to look at, is there a sneaky compulsion happening there?  Chris: I was just going to quickly add two things. One, I think what you were saying, Kim, with your clients, I see all the time. “I shouldn’t feel this way. It’s not okay for me to feel this way. There’s people out there that are going through bigger traumas.” For some reason, I feel society gives a hierarchy of like, “Oh, if you’re going through this you can grieve for this much, but we’re going to grief police you if you’re going through this. That’s much down here.” So, my clients will feel guilty. My brother lost an arm when he was younger. How dare I feel bad about the time lost with OCD? I always tell my clients, there’s no such thing as grief police and your experience is yours. We don’t need to compare or contrast it to others because society already does that. And then second, I’m going to throw in a little plug for Kim. I feel as a clinician, it’s my responsibility to keep absorbing things that I think will help my client. Your book that really talks about the self-compassion component, I read that from cover to cover. One thing that I’ve used when we’re dealing with this with my clients is saying like, “We got to change our internal voice. Your internal voice has been one that’s been frightened, small, scared, angry for so long. We got to change that internal voice to one that roots for you that has you get up each day and tackle the day.” If a client is sitting there saying that they shouldn’t feel okay, I always ask them, “What kind of voice would you use to your younger brother or sister that you feel protective about? Would you knock down their experience? No, you would hold that space for them. What if we did that for you? It may feel odd, but this is something that I feel you need at this time.” Typically, when they start using a more self-compassionate tone, they start to feel like they’re healing. So, that’s something that we got to make sure they’re doing as well. OCD AND DEPRESSION Kim: Yeah. Thank you for saying that. One thing we haven’t touched on, and I will just quickly bring it up too, is I think secondary depression is a normal part of having OCD as well and is a part of the emotional toll. Sometimes either that depression can impact your ability to recover, or once you’ve gone through treatment, you’re still not hopeful about the future. You’re still feeling hopeless and helpless about the way the world is and the way that your brain functions in certain stresses. I would say if that is the case, also don’t be afraid to bring up to your clinician. Like, I actually am concerned. I might have some depression if they haven’t picked up on it. Because as clinicians, we know there’s an emotional toll, we forget to assess for depression. That’s something else just to consider. Chris: Yeah. I’m a stats nerd and I think it’s 68% of the DSM, people with OCD have a depressive disorder, and 76% have an anxiety disorder. I always wonder, how can you have OCD and not be depressed? I was extremely depressed when my OCD was going on, and I think it’s because of how it ravishes your life and takes you away from the things you care about the most. And then the things that would make you happy to get you out of the depression, obviously, you can’t do. I will say the nice thing is, typically, what I see, whether it’s through medication or not medication, but the treatment itself—what I see is that as people get better from OCD, if their depression did come from having OCD, a lot of it lifts, especially as they start to re-engage in life. Kim: All right. I’m looking at the time and I am loving everything you say. I’d love if you could each go around, tell us where we can hear more about you. If there’s any final word that you want to say, I’m more than happy for you to take the mic. Jessica? Jessica: I’ll start. I think I said in the introduction, but I have a private practice in Los Angeles. It’s called Mindful CBT California. My website is MindfulCBTCalifornia.com. You can find some blogs and a contact page for me there. I hope to see a lot of you at the IOCDF conference this year. I love attending those, so I’ll be there. That’s it for me. Kim: Chris? Alegra: Like I said, if you’re in the Southern California area, make sure to check out OCD SoCal. I am on the board of that or the International OCD Foundation, I’m on the board. I’m always connected at events through that. You can find me on my social media, which is just my name, @ChrisTrondsen. I currently work at the Gateway Institute in Orange County, California, so you can definitely find me there. My email is just my name, [email protected]. I would say the final thought that I want to leave, first and foremost, is just what I hope you got from this podcast is that all those other mixed bags of emotions that you’re experiencing are normal. We just want to normalize that for you, and make sure as you’re going through your recovery journey that you and your clinician address them, because I feel much more like a whole person because I was able to address those. You’re not alone. Hopefully, you got from that you’re not alone. Kim: Alegra? Alegra: You can find me @obsessivelyeverafter on Instagram. I also have a website, AlegraKastens.com, where you can find my contact info. You can find my Ask Alegra workshop series that I do once a month. I also just started a podcast called Sad Girls Who Read, so you can find me there with my co-host Erin Kommor, who also has OCD. My final words would probably be, I know we talked about a lot of really dark stuff today and how painful OCD can be, but it absolutely can get so much better. I would say that I am 95% better than I was when I first started suffering. It’s brilliant and it’s beautiful, and I never thought that would be the case. Yes, you’ll hear from me in July, Kim, but other than that, I feel like I do have a very-- Kim’s like, “Oh, will I?” Kim: I’ve scheduled you in. Alegra: She’s like, “I have seven months to prep for this.” But other than that, I would say that my life is like, I never would’ve dreamed that I could be here, so it is really possible. Kim: Yeah. Chris: Amen. Of that. Kim: Yeah. Thank you all so much. This has been so meaningful for me to have you guys on. I’m really grateful for your time and your advocacy. Thank you. Chris: Thanks, Kim. Thanks for having us.  Alegra: Thanks, Kim.

I can barely hold in my excitement! We have a three-day live event where I will teach a new course called Overcoming Depression.  I have had all of this passion show up in my body after seeing loved ones and clients struggle and after you guys repeatedly asking for a course on depression.   Our new online course called Overcoming Depression is finally here.  I will record it live on March 11th, 18th and 25th from 9:00 a.m. to 10:30 a.m.  If you are interested, please join me, and I will teach you LIVE, and you can ask all your questions. NOTE: This course will not be considered therapy. Just like all of our courses, it will be educational.  Overcoming Depression will be me teaching you the skills I teach my clients when it comes to Psychoeducation and strategies and tools to overcome depression.    Head over to CBTSCHOOLcom/depression to sign up!   I am so excited to have you guys join me live.  Ask your questions in the question box.  We will tackle not only your negative thinking but also your behaviors your motivation Self-compassion Long-term recovery techniques   I'm so excited and hope to see you there. SIGN UP at CBTschool.com/depression

OCD TREATMENT OPTIONS  Today, we have Elizabeth McIngvale and we are talking all about different OCD treatment options.  Elizabeth (Liz) McIngvale is the Director of the McLean OCDI Houston. She has an active clinical and research and leadership role there. McLean OCDI is a treatment center for people with OCD and she talks extensively about different OCD treatment options in this episode. She’s the perfect one to talk to in this episode about knowing when you need a higher level of care, particularly related to OCD.  In this episode, we walk through the different levels of care from self-help all the way through to inpatient facilities. Elizabeth spoke so beautifully about how to know when you’re ready for the next step of care, what to look out for, what you should be interested in, and questions you should ask. This is such an important episode. I’m actually blown away that I haven’t addressed it yet, but I’m so grateful we got to talk about it today. Elizabeth McIngvale is also a lecturer at Harvard Medical School. She treats obsessive-compulsive disorders, anxiety disorders. She’s got a special interest in mental health stigma and access to mental health care. It was actually such an educational episode and I felt like it actually made me a better supervisor to my staff and a better educator as well. You’re going to love this episode if you’re really wanting to understand and take the stigma out of increasing your care if that’s something that you need.  That being said, I’m going to let you listen to Elizabeth’s amazing words, and I hope you enjoy this episode just as much as I did. Have a great day, everybody. Kimberley Quinlan:  Well, welcome, Liz McIngvale. I'm so excited to have you on for two reasons. Number one, I really want to talk about giving people information about OCD treatment options, but I also understand that you can also bring in a personal experience here. Anytime, someone can share their personal experience, just lights me up. So thank you for being here. Elizabeth McIngvale: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here and yeah, I hope that both my personal but also professional kind of background in this arena might help guide. Some individuals who are kind of wondering what treatment do they need right now and and what does treatment for them look like Kimberley Quinlan: Wonderful. Do you want to share a little bit about your history with OCD and your story as much as you want to share? Elizabeth McIngvale: For sure. Yeah, I'll try to not take up too much time but you know, basically, I grew up here in Houston, Texas, where I'm from, and was diagnosed with OCD right around 12. I started showing lots of different symptoms prior on and off, but nothing that was disruptive nothing. That really would have warranted a diagnosis. I would do things like track the weather, or every time I read a book, I would start at page one because I didn't like the feeling if I picked up in between and things like that… Elizabeth McIngvale: but nothing was really out of the norm normal in the sense that I was still doing okay. And academically you know, Relationship-wise and I was functioning well until I wasn't, you know, until my intrusive thoughts, got louder and the disruption became more and more severe. Here in Houston, we have the largest medical center in the world and we are known for our healthcare and so you would think access to good care would be really accessible, but unfortunately, it just wasn't and granted, this was a long time ago, almost 20 years ago but we really started searching for treatment here in Houston and, you know, I was lucky enough that pretty early on I got  a diagnosis and for most of us in the OCD world, we know that that's rare for it to happen that soon. So that was great. That was a huge blessing for me, however we couldn't find good treatment. Every provider would say things like we've never seen a case like this. We don't know how to treat this and there's not help available. You guys should assume that Liz live in a mental health hospital, the rest of her life. And so my parents were just really struggling with What do I do and How do I help my child. And so they kept researching and kept trying to figure it out and actually they got lucky enough that they stumbled across the newspaper article and in that newspaper article talked about an inpatient treatment center at the time which was called the Meninger Clinic and how they had an OCD program. There was a little bitty excerpt and immediately my dad, called my mom, they ended up calling Meninger and learning more and I ended up going to the Meninger clinic when I was 15. I went three days after my 15th birthday, I'll never forget and I talk about this a lot because my treatment stay at Meninger was the first step to my life being changed. It was the first step to me getting appropriate treatment. It didn't cure me, you know, I want to be honest about that. I think sometimes we think, okay, we go do that. We either like get cured or We don't. And, for those of us who live with OCD, we understand that management of our illnesses different than a cure, right? It was a lot of work, but it was also the beginning of a journey where I had to learn to do my own treatment and I had to learn to become my own therapist. And as much as the treatment was super successful for me, I was there for three months and my life changed. I went from being suicidal being hopeless, and not being able to function at all six to eight hour showers and completely, homebound completely riddled by rituals, to being a kid who could fully function. I was able to go back to school. Take five minute showers, do things I never thought I could do again. At the same time, I didn't realize that I had to still take ownership of my illness, I think I thought Oh like the ownership is, I did treatment and that's what it meant. Not that I needed to keep engaging in treatment. And I talk about that because I did relapse later, I ended up going… I ended up doing some outpatient in between and then back to impatient again. And for me, I had to kind of learn what level of care works for me? What does that look like? And how do I manage my illness? And to this day, I still go to outpatient therapy. It's still a big part of my life. Am I actively doing OCD work every week? No I'm doing other stuff right? Family system and boundary setting and things that are important in my life that are tough. But it's been a journey even for myself personally, to know what level of care do I need and at what point. And I think what's really interesting is that when I was 15 I would have told you I'm not going to treatment. My parents had to take me involuntarily and it was a pretty awful day the day they took me to treatment. And, you know, I say this because a lot of times when people hear my story they think Oh, well, y'all did everything right and like, it was just this, like, beautiful path to recovery. That's like, no. It was really messy and it is messy and that's okay. There is no perfect way for us to get treatment in a way that can change our life. And so I really want us to think more about the outcome and what treatment might mean to us versus being super close-minded about the process,… 00:05:00 Kimberley Quinlan:  Right. Elizabeth McIngvale: because I think a lot of times we have so much anxiety around I want to go to intensive treatment. I don't want to leave my life. I don't want to put things on hold I don't want to go to this hospital like setting if that's where I'm going and really, it's not about that. It's about what might it give us in the long run,  right? Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Elizabeth McIngvale: And just that chance at freedom that maybe outpatient care can no longer do. Kimberley Quinlan: Right? So for the folks who are new here and if just new to us let's sort of just because I feel like I really want to cover this as as much as we can. When you went to Meninger what was the correct OCD treatment in which you received like was it,… Elizabeth McIngvale: Yeah. Totally. Kimberley Quinlan: can you kind of give us a little bit of a view of what that looks like? Elizabeth McIngvale: Yeah. So before Meninger I had gone to outpatient providers and… Elizabeth McIngvale: I remember playing the  board game life with a therapist once and I crossed the bridge and I remember her saying Liz, how does that feel? And I was like Well I don't know. Like How does it feel to you? Like what? I remember going to my mom and I was young, right? I was adolescent. I said Mom like this isn't working like we're playing the  board game life, I'm not getting better, like this is not therapy and my mom was just like, well, I don't know, she didn't know, she didn't know what she should be doing or not. And so I got to Meninger and I remember there were three things that really put things in perspective for me upon arriving. The first was I met someone else like myself. I met a young girl named Amy who struggled with an eating disorder and OCD and I remember I was crying. I was vomiting. I was so sick. That was so anxious about being there and all she said to me is it's okay. I cried too. And it was the first time in my life. I met someone else like me. And for those of you who know, you know, the the value I believe advocacy has in the OCD world is because we need to feel part of a community, even when we're struggling, And so I got that but it was the first time in my life. I remember, I sat down with my therapists in this conference room and you know, I didn't believe in therapy, candidly. I had gotten really bad therapy for a long time and I just continued to get worse. So I didn't think therapy could help me. I didn't think I could get better and I really was starting to accept that I would just live a life with bad OCD forever and then I would just live in this basically, in the state of misery. And I remember I sat down and for the first time My provider starts asking me all these questions, and he doesn't seem scared. He's like, Oh yeah, no problem. Okay, tell me about this. Tell me about that. And there was this like, not egotistical like this, very humble confidence that. Oh, yeah. Like I know how to treat you, and I was just like, what? And I remember, He said, Yeah, we're gonna do Exposure & Response Prevention (ERP)  I've done this before. You're not the worst case. I've seen, you know, I know how to treat this. I've done all in, It was the first time I realized, Oh my gosh, someone actually knows how to help me. Elizabeth McIngvale:  And so my entire treatment was based on exposure and response prevention and you know I think ERPs come a long way as somebody who now works in this field and runs a program doing, you know, runs at the same program. We don't do ERP the same way we did when I did it. Right. When I did ERP, it was an older school model. It was a very habituation model. I remember holding contaminated sweaters and just sitting there for an hour or two, right? We don't do that anymore, but there's something about the basis, right? The core of the treatment hasn't changed and it's it's what changed my life and it's it's really important that I will say, I can't imagine what it had been like if I would have gone to an impatient or a residential setting that wasn't OCD specific and that wasn't doing evidence-based care. I would have believed in treatment even last and I would have been even more helpless. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, there is so much beauty to being with someone who's like, Oh yeah, I've had a worst case than you like. I've had so many clients say like that is the best thing anyone has ever said to me. Elizabeth McIngvale: Yeah. Yeah. Like okay not like Oh like I mean literally providers would say to me in Houston like we've never seen a case of severe. We don't know how to help you and it's like, Well what? So like What do I do? Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Elizabeth McIngvale: You know, Can you try and they're like, we don't know, we don't know how to try. Kimberley Quinlan: Right, right? I'm so grateful that you had that experience. This amazing. So, Let's sort of fast forward to now. You of course are an OCD specialist, we know this an amazing one. I first want to look at the term outpatient For some people, they don't know what that means. So what does OCD outpatient treatment look like? Elizabeth McIngvale: Yeah. OCD TREATMENT ONLINE Kimberley Quinlan: And would you also speak to now since covid? We also have like an online version of that so you want to elaborate on OCD treatment online?  Elizabeth McIngvale: Yeah, there's so many. So actually, let's have you start first by describing self-help because I think it's. So I think it's really important When we think about levels of care to think about the continuum, right? I look at it as like,… Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Yep. OCD SELF HELP Elizabeth McIngvale: there's self-help options, there's outpatient options and then there's intensive option. Elizabeth McIngvale:  Yeah. 00:10:00 Kimberley Quinlan: Beautiful, yeah. Like thats the epitome of me, like even with this podcast, right? How can we provide free or not one one one treat metn for people or in the case of CBT School, how can we  help you to do it on your own?  RIght, so there are sort of self lead courses  or we have the self-compassion workbook for OCD, which is ultimately me as a clinician saying, If I was with a client, this is the steps I would take. So, that's the first step and we offer that all the time. And and I think I don't really actually think we've got that much research on it yet. I think we're in the early stages of that, but that is being really helpful for people who sort of want to become educated, want to understand what's going on and they feel motivated and able to do that on their own. So that's that's the self-help model, then what would we use? Elizabeth McIngvale: Well in one of the things, I want to back up for a second to just and I know you've done so many podcasts on this but for those who've skipped over this one, right, what's really most important is that you're engaging in evidence-based treatment and what we mean by that is that we want to make sure you're getting access to treatment that's been researched and that we know works for OCD. And so there's self-help that is not evidence-based for OCD and they're self-help that is evidence-based for OCD. And one of the beauties of self-help is that you don't have to look at it as a soul intervention, right? Do it while you can, you can do these workbooks, you can do these self-help, you know, in different modalities while you're going to an outpatient therapist. And then one of the things that's really beautiful is that if you live in an area where there isn't OCD providers or OCD specialists your clinicians can actually also use it as a guiding tool in treatment, right? And so again it's allows there to be this rubric of good treatment, all right? This kind of like guide book to,… Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Elizabeth McIngvale: you know, or handbook to say. And so Always think of that as kind of our least, invasive level of care and… Kimberley Quinlan:  Right. Elizabeth McIngvale: it's a level of care. That's my goal that everyone ends up at right that you're able to get to a place… Kimberley Quinlan:  Yeah. Elizabeth McIngvale: where like, yes, you're still actively engaged in a treatment community whether that's through self-help workbooks or podcasts or different ways that you connect because that's really helpful, but that you may not need one-to-one anymore, right? I go to one-to-one therapy because it's important for my soul. I don't need it and… Kimberley Quinlan:  Right. Elizabeth McIngvale: that's very different, right? I'm at a place where I can engage the tools inependently, using some resources with and when I need them. And so then the next level is outpatient therapy and traditional outpatient therapy would be oftentimes once a week 45 to 50 minutes session with an OCD specialist in person, one to one in the past three years, that's totally shifted right actually, I would say more commonly it's virtual than it is in person and you know, there's pros and cons. I think most of us Most of us still think in person is better,  right? That just if it's feasible, But from a scheduling perspective and feasibilities perspective online is so much easier, right? So most of us, myself included, I do my therapy online because it's, I don't have to schedule the time to drive and get to my clinician and drive back. And so, that's really important. The second piece that's really important to think about is, I would rather you 100 times over be doing virtual sessions with someone who specializes in OCD and knows how to treat OCD then do in person with someone who doesn't. Elizabeth McIngvale: Right, so really, when we think about therapy and interventions, we want to make sure and this is important because a lot of times people will say, Oh well I've tried out patient therapy, It doesn't work for me but they haven't necessarily tried it with an OCD specialist and they haven't been appropriate evidence-based treatment and really we want you to do that first before you start thinking about next level of care or you know some people will want to do like a medication trial and it's like Well you don't get in the research study in a trial if we haven't tried evidence based stuff first, right? So that's really important. With that being said, outpatient can be a continuum, Some outpatient providers can offer two to three sessions a week for 45 minutes, you know? So they can do kind of what we would call like intensive outpatient and that they may make in their own program, but traditionally most clinicians who carry an outpatient case. Load would see someone once a week for 45 minutes session. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah and I think that's for our center as well once maybe twice if there's more of a crisis but that's the level of care that we that's the kind of clients that we have and that's the level of care that we do provide. So I think and I will say going back to your online is quite a few of the people who take ERP school have therapists, right? It's like 55% of the people who take ERP School are therapist. So therapists are, you know, even though that might be their specialty, Let's say they're the only person in their neighborhood. That is what they're doing, right? They're just doing the best, they can learning whatever skills they can. So that's very positive in my mind. Elizabeth McIngvale: That's right. Yeah, and want people to have a good sound background in ERP but have to mean that they only treat OCD,… Kimberley Quinlan:  Right. Elizabeth McIngvale: you know, and I think it's important that you can get really great progress right on an outpatient basis with someone who's knowledgeable and ERP. If you are at a place where outpatient level of care is warranted and important to think about, 00:15:00 Kimberley Quinlan:  Right, and that brings me to my next question, how would someone know if they needed a higher level of care for OCD? What would be some symptoms or signs that would be showing up for them? Elizabeth McIngvale: And so the first thing I want you to think about is, Are you seeing somebody who does evidence-based care and are you not getting better, right? That's really the first like thing we need to look at is, Are you going to therapy and have you given in a good therapeutic dose, right? So we're talking, you know, at least a couple months. You don't expect that in two sessions, right? We're like better. Because often it may get worse than better. But at least, you know, maybe a couple weeks to a month or two. Are you on your own saying, I'm not seeing the results that I want, right? That this is, this is not getting me where I want to be. The second question is what level of functioning has your OCD impacted? Elizabeth McIngvale: Traditionally most of our patients in residential care are not working full-time. So their OCD is really impacting their functioning on a level that's disruptive so whether that's either their family life or their job or their school or their career, right? Something is pretty significantly disrupted from their OCD. That once a week may not be enough, right? It again the level of disruption is a little bit too high and then the third thing to really think about is what your provider telling you A good OCD clinician should not be trying to make some sort of a program for you that they don't typically do to keep you on their caseload. Kimberley Quinlan: Right. OCD INTENSIVE TREATMENT Elizabeth McIngvale: They should willing to say to you, You know I think I think you need more right now. And this is what more might look like. And the reality is that you're going to get to go back to them, right? As long as they're doing good ERP and evidence based care, right? You're gonna be encouragedto go back to that outpatient provider but it's about stepping up the level of intensity, right? If we have a medical diagnosis and we're going to our doctor but it starts to warrant the level of hospitalization or certain you know more intensive treatment, we don't want our outpatient doctor to keep seeing us in their private practice, right? We want them to send us to the hospital so that it can get managed and we can get more intensive treatment until we can return back to an outpatient level of management. We cannot treat the brain differently. Elizabeth McIngvale: You know, and I hear people all the time. Well Liz, you know, I don't really want to go to treatment for four six weeks and my answer is like, well, what's 4 6? 12 18. However, many weeks you're at a treatment center if it gives you the rest of your life. Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Elizabeth McIngvale: Right? When we are talking about meeting this level of care, the disruption is not minimal the disruption is significant, right? We know that for patients with OCD, OCD impacts all aspects of your quality of life, right? All facets of it. I'm looking at our data yesterday and all like our 2022 outcomes data. We see significant statistically, significant decrease in OCD scores in phq-9. Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Elizabeth McIngvale: But then also in disability scores, right? Because we want you to be able to get back to functioning and get back to the life, you love, or you deserve, or you're excited about that OCD is taking away from you and so, I always want, I always want you to think about that and often with that means is that you typically can't do the homework, you're being assigned,… Kimberley Quinlan:  Yeah. Elizabeth McIngvale: you know, being assigned homework, and you're trying to do it, you're trying to engage in it, but you're struggling and you find that you're you're not able to do that homework independently. And so often times patients in our level of care, need extra support. They need support in the evenings. They need support outside of their behavioral therapy sessions to be able to do this ERP They need extra coaching, they need extra support. They need extra motivation. Kimberley Quinlan: Right. And and recently, we had Micah Howe on the podcast. I was sharing with you before and he was really saying… He said, I went to inpatient thinking that it would be like a new kind of therapy and he's like, it was actually good to see, it's the same therapy, but more, right? Like just so much more. Elizabeth McIngvale:  That's right. Yeah, if you're with a good therapist, right? It's same, if you're with someone who's doing evidence-based care, it's the same therapy but more and maybe maybe it's implemented a little bit differently, right? I do believe that we use some different language. We try to get things to stick in different ways, right? That sort of thing, but the model of treatment shouldn't change. OCD INPATIENT TREATMENT  Kimberley Quinlan: Okay, so this is all beautiful and I think it all of those points that you made are so important. The homework piece the therapist feeling like that's what they're recommendation is. What would be the next step up from outpatient? OCD treatment, in your opinion? Elizabeth McIngvale: Yeah. So you know I can't speak for all the programs but what I can tell you is that here at the OCD Institute in Houston, Right? Houston Ocdi. We really focus on a super detailed admission process. And so what I mean by that is Kim,… 00:20:00 Elizabeth McIngvale: if you call tomorrow and said Hey I have sever OCD, I need to come to your program. We don't say great, here's our next opening,  that's not how it works at all. So for us we require a provider referral form a family referral form. You have to complete intake forms and then we do a one hour zoom session with you And during that zoom session we want to gather information. We want to understand your current symptoms. We want to make sure two things A: You're a good fit for our program and B: that we think this level of cares appropriate for you, you know, just because sometimes people have really bad OCD but they're actually not right yet for this level here. I run my program with this super strong whatever we want to call it…but deep rooted ethical means because it's happened to me in different ways and I'll never do it is I want to make sure that if someone is coming here and using certain resources that aren't you know, They run out. I want to make sure they're having the best chance of Elizabeth McIngvale:  Managing their symptoms being able to return and live return to their life or live their life. And so, what I mean by that is that I don't take a patient if they want to come here, but we don't think they're good fit and ethically, I'm never gonna do that, right? I want you to get the right treatment and go to the right providers and the same thing happens when you come here. I think a lot of times people think, Oh, if I go to intensive treatment, I just, you know, they're gonna take my money and hopefully I get better. Absolutely not. You should run from a program that you feel like that programs should be reassessing every week. We have team meeting every day, we have rounds and we're talking about, Is this the right fit? Are we helping move the needle? Is the patient getting better? And so just because you start, somewhere, doesn't always mean you're gonna end somewhere. Sometimes we learn a lot about a patient. And example might be You come here with strong with with really high level OCD. But as you start doing intensive, work we realize. Wow you you're really struggling with emotion regulation and we actually think you need to go get some DBT work first before you're going to be able to effectively engage in ERP. And so we may encourage a patient to discharge,… Elizabeth McIngvale: go do DBT and come back to us so that there's a chance at us being successful. I never want to patient to stay in my level of care and not be successful because it wasn't the right time or they needed to do something else first because then guess what they think treatment doesn't work for them and they think they can't get better when that's not the case. I talked about this with John Abramowitz the other day on a webinar with Chris Johnson and then we were talking about ERP and I said Guys for all intents and purposes there's years if not decades a decade in my life where I could have said to you ERP doesn't work for me. But it's not that ERP didn't work for me. Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm. Elizabeth McIngvale: It's that I wasn't accepting ERP and I wasn't engaging in ERP. I was doing it with one foot in one foot out. And the good news with intensive treatment is, we're going to try to help you get both feet in, right? We're gonna try to increase your motivation, increase your willingness, and we can support you 24 hours a day in that process, which is what outpatient therapy cannot do. An outpatient therapist does not have the capacity to offer that level of support… Elizabeth McIngvale: where we can and we do. At the same time, If we're trying and you're not able to do that right now, we're not going to keep trying the same thing. We're not gonna keep saying Well let's just keep doing ERP because guess what ERP isn't gonna work for you right now, but it's not that ERP doesn't work. It's because we need to get you ready to do ERP even at an intensive level. And so we should be thinking about that as well. And so my point is that it's not a one size fits all model. And if you're looking for intensive or residential programs, be cautious of that, be cautious of programs that, you know, require you to stay a certain amount of time and take all your money up front and they're not going to, you know, customize a plan, you know, that sort of thing. Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm. I love that. I love that. So, just for the sake of people understanding and I actually will even admit, like, I really want to know this too because I've only ever been an outpatient provider. I've never been an inpatient or a residential provider. So could you share Maybe the differences between OCD intensive, outpatient therapy, right? With OCD inpatient treatment or residential treatment. What, what would the day look like? And how would that be different for the person with OCD? Elizabeth McIngvale: Yeah, it's a great question and let's actually walk through. There's a couple levels of care, so there's IOP, which is intensive outpatient, which is often three to five hours a day. Three to five days a week. There's PHP, which is partial hospitalization, which is often five days a week about eight hours a day. And then there's residential level of care, which is 24 hours, a day, 7 days a week. And then there's inpatient level of care, which is also 24 hours a day, seven days a week, but impatient is a little bit different than like what we have here at the Houston OCDI where we're residential. Inpatient can take patients with a higher level of acuity. So impatient is often a locked unit. That's a hospital setting. So they may be able to take patients that are active safety risk, you know, harm of hurting themselves that sort of thing, where residential program like ours, we don't, we don't accept those patients because we can't maintain that level of acuity for them. We are not a facility that can help keep patients safe. And what I mean by that is that while our program operates 24 hours a day. We are a non-locked unit. We have a full kitchen, we've got washer dryers, we get for all intents and purposes, like You're living in a beautiful residential home and you have access to knives, you can leave whenever you want. You can go off site, you can go to the Astros game if you're here in Houston. And we want you to do that. Actually, we want you to start to reintegrate into life, while you're in treatment with us. 00:25:00 Elizabeth McIngvale: And so, the reality is that, we need patients to be at a certain level of acuity right? So they have to be safe, and they have to not be a risk or harm to themselves for us to feel comfortable that they can engage in our level of care safely. And so, the difference between let's say IOP is that often times, we're talking about three to five hours a day, three days a week and so you're doing intensive sessions together, right? Imagine you're going to your therapist and for three hours a day, you're doing some, you know, individual or even group stuff, but you're working together, you're doing exposures and you're getting three hours of support versus 45 minutes. Elizabeth McIngvale: Residential however, is 24 hours a day. And so, for our residential patients, there's programming from 8:45 to 4 pm Monday through Friday, 8:45 to 3 pm on weekends. But there's residential counselors here 24 hours a day, which means that when we do outings with our patients, Wednesday and Saturday night our RCs are going with you. They're encouraging you. They're helping you. They're supporting you. Because for all all of our patients actually with OCD, there's exposures built into outings you know, to going off, site to going and doing enjoyable things. And so you have that support 24 hours. If you need support in the shower, you have that support. If you need support cooking a meal, you have that support doing your laundry, you have that support in a residential setting. So really, if you need extra support around activities of daily living, we want you to be thinking about a residential level of care, compared to more of an outpatient level of care. Even if it's intensive outpatient or PHP, you're gonna go home in the evenings and you're gonna be expected to be able to engage in those activities on your own. Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Right. So just because I'm thinking of the listeners and I'm wondering if they're wondering, Does that mean that when they come into your Houston residential program that, let's say, if they're someone who showers for, let's say, two or three hours, that you're immediately, your therapist on staff are going to be cutting them dance for like down right away. Or What does that look like? Is it gradual? Like How would that like, That's just an example… Elizabeth McIngvale: Oh yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: But what would that look like in the residential format? Elizabeth McIngvale:  It's a great question, right? So I can tell you up front, if someone is coming with contamination OCD and they have, Let's just say a two to three hour shower. My goal is definitely gonna be that we're cutting that down, right? And the goal is that you're not going to be engaging in that long of a shower, by the time you leave and that's not your goal, right? Or you wouldn't be coming, but everything is done slowly and systematically and it's done effectively. So, what I mean by that is that we're not gonna push you to do exposures, if you can't engage in response prevention yet. We know, that's not useful. And so, what you would expect really weeks one and two are getting to know our model. You're starting to, you know, engage in readings and videos. And, you know, you have some small exposures. We're starting to do and you're building trust and repor, but you're starting where you want to start. Some of our patients might show up with the two-hour shower, but that's actually not their most distressing compulsion, something else is and that's what they want to work on first and that's where we're gonna meet them, right? We're not gonna start with a place you don't want to start and so we slowly work up to things and we get there together and we do like monitors in the shower and in our staff room so that we can have coached showers. So we might say things. Like If you set a goal of you know I want to be done with shampooing my hair within a five minute period or this, right? We're telling you the time we're communicating with you throughout we're asking you if you need a different level of support, we're talking to you about the amount of supplies you take into the shower prior. So we're doing a lot of planning, a lot of prepping. But I have a lot of rules. For exposures as an OCD clinician and certainly as the program director here. Number one is exposure should never be a surprise? We never throw exposures on someone, right? We talk about it with you. We're all on board. It's not an unplanned exposure by just, you know, say Hey today you're doing this or I just purposely contaminate you. The second is exposures should be agreed upon mutually right? You should be wanting to do it. You should be agreeing to do it. It shouldn't be something that I think makes sense. It should be what you think makes sense. And of course the last is that it should always be something I'm willing to do, right? I'm never ask someone to do an exposure that I'm not willing to do and so that doesn't shift in the residential process, right? Yes. In a residential program, I might be able to push patients a little bit more because I, I know they're gonna have support. I know that we can help them or you're with four hours of activity or people blocks a day compared to you know, 20 minutes within my 45 minute outpatient session. So sure we may be able to push a little bit more or a vote higher levels of distress when we're doing er, 00:30:00 Elizabeth McIngvale:  Than what would be comfortable with on an outpatient level but across the board motivation. Willingness that's on the patient, not on us, and it shouldn't be Kimberley Quinlan: And I'm just curious because I don't, this is so wonderful and thank you for sharing all that. Because I think that's true for outpatient and… Elizabeth McIngvale:  forced, or Kimberley Quinlan: for residential, but I think is so beautiful in that setting and I'm mainly just curious because I haven't been able to visit your center is,… Elizabeth McIngvale:  Yes. Kimberley Quinlan: are they as everyone bunked in rooms together? Like, What does that look like? I know that in and of itself may be scary for people going in, right? Like, Do I have to sleep with somebody because I have compulsions around sleep and I'm afraid I won't sleep like, so, what does that look like? Elizabeth McIngvale: I know it's a great question and it's it's interesting because when I so I actually went to the Meninger clinic when I went impatient at 15 and it was a locked unit, it was a much, lover, level higher, level of acuity. And so it was this like, sterile hospital, like setting, you know, and I remember feeling super upset and anxious and away from my home and One of the things that I don't love about those sort of settings for OCD treatment perspective, is that like, we had a housekeeper there, for example, like there was an access to a washer dryer to a kitchen. So like meals were prepared for you and what laundry was done. And while that's fine or good, actually, for some of us with OCD. It's not good for OCD, right? Because we want patients to actually practice those skills. And so, However, before I jump into what our programs like I do want to say, I still got better. Elizabeth McIngvale: And I will tell you that, if the cost is being in an uncomfortable, sterile hospital setting, but it was me getting my life back. I do it all over again and so I really want us to think about that. Kimberley Quinlan: That's really interesting. Elizabeth McIngvale: You know that I think sometimes we we get so hung up on like, am I gonna be comfortable? What does it look like? What if I have a roommate and at the end of the day, you're getting your life back? So those sort of things are not what's more important, that should not override if it's an OCD specialty program, if you're going to be with other patients with anxiety or OCD, that's more important to me. I want When you're, if you're looking for a higher level of care, you need to be asking questions, like Are all the patients Patients with anxiety OCD are related disorders, is the treatment program specific to that, right? You don't want to be at a program with, you know, people with 20 diagnoses and there's just generalist modalities for groups or generalists, you know, groups and whatnot. You want there to be effective evidence-based care, being taught to you for anxiety and OCD. Elizabeth McIngvale:  And so our program is actually so different. So our program is, in a beautiful Mediterranean, you know, 6,000 square foot, beautiful home and with the brand new kitchen, and it's got, you know, two washers too. Dryers and we have 11 beds total. So, six of our I'm sorry, we have six bedrooms, five of the bedrooms, have double beds. So, two queens and those rooms and then one has a single bed, that's our ada room, all of our bedrooms have their own bathroom and it's a really a home like home like experience. I think all of our patients would tell you, I hear this, I do it. Check out with every patient that comes through a program, I run groups and with them all the time, they always say that the entire experience was completely different than what they expected. You know, they were thinking this hospital setting this kind of rigid treatment where it was really instead it's like, hey, you come here and we help together create a supportive environment to get you back to the things you want to be doing in your life. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, I love it. I mean, when I used to work in the eating disorder community, it's like a big family. Like and and I think for me from my experience of clients, going through residential programs is, I think they had this idea of What the other people would be like only to find out. Like, these are my people, like, these are my people and and I want to encourage people listening. I know it's scary, the idea of increasing your, at the level of care. But usually, when you increase the level of care, you meet more of your people which is like the silver lining, I don't know, that was just being my experience of people and… Elizabeth McIngvale: I couldn't agree more,… Kimberley Quinlan: what they've said, Elizabeth McIngvale: you know, and we we see our patients and they leave. And we do this mentor support group where they can come back and run them into our group to the newer patients, or the patients currently in the program and it's so great to see. But I cannot tell you how many of our patients are great friends now and they go to the conference together and… Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Elizabeth McIngvale: they, you know, connect together and they run a support group for each other outside of when they leave here to keep and hold each other accountable. But you know one of the beauties is that in our home like setting you get to truly practice everything, right? And so you practice, the things you're gonna have to be doing at home, from cooking a meal doing your laundry, cleaning your room, right? All these sort of things that are important skills. We don't want to isolate and create this sterile environment. We want it to feel and to mimic your home. And so, there is so many memories and so much connection that's made when you're cooking together with your residence or when you're sitting in the living room together and watching them a movie, or going out to dinner in the community together and those are some of the most Important impactful and meaningful experiences and treatment, right? Not only because you make peers and connections, but you also get to encourage each other in the treatment process together. 00:35:00 Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm, I love that. Okay. So we've worked our way to the higher level of care. You've done the higher level of care. Let's make sure we finish this story. Well, right? It's like, it's like a movie plot to, the right is, How do we come down the level of care, right? So what does it look like for somebody who's done higher levels of care? What what is like you said at the beginning? It's not just like a one and done, you can sort of dust yourself off and maybe you can, I don't know. What is your experience? What's your suggestions in terms of reducing the level of care, Elizabeth McIngvale: Yeah. So our goal from treatment is that anytime someone discharges from our program, their discharging to an outpatient level of care and at some times for some of our patients, they're going to discharge back to their outpatient provider and they may see them two or three days a week, a first couple weeks and then two days a week and then, you know, to kind of taper back down to traditional outpatient or whatever, their therapist has available. And so that's the goal. But getting there looks different for everyone. So some of our patients will do residential the whole time, they're with us 12 to 16 weeks. However, long, they're in treatment and go straight back to their outpatient level of care, especially if they live out of state, different things that may make the most sense for them, but some of our patients may actually discharge to our day program. So they may, you know, spend eight weeks with us in the residential. And then discharge to our day program, for the last four weeks, especially if they're local, but even if they're not, they may get an airbnb and discharge to that level of care because it might actually be recommended and warranted for them to really practice independent things outside of the treatment day without 24 hours support Elizabeth McIngvale:  And then again be able to tailor or taper back down to an outpatient level of care. So for us that is always our goal. One of the questions I get a lot is like Well when will I know if I'm ready to leave Liz and What will that look like? And my response is always the same is that I don't expect or actually want patients to leave here without any OCD. If you're leaving here without any triggers or any anxiety or OCD, then we probably kept you too long, right? Because it's important to remember that. You only should be in this level of care for as long as it's warranted. We should not be keeping you and charging you and having you stay. If you're ready to go to an outpatient level of care at that point. And so, my response is always, I'm, I, I want people to discharge when they're at a place where the treatment team and the patient feels confident that they're going to be able to maintain their progress on an outpatient level. And so the goal is that you've gotten all the tools, you've got the skills, you understand the concepts, you know, the difference between feeding your OCD and fighting your OCD and what that looks Elizabeth McIngvale:  Like, you've changed your relationship with anxiety and OCD and now you're ready to keep doing that on your own. And so for a lot of our patients, we recommend and have them do what's called a therapeutic absence. This is typically about three fourths through treatment. We'll ask you to go home for about three to five days. Practice your skills. See how you do, see where you got stuck? Come back. We'll tweak things will help kind of read those final things before you leave, but the goal is that you're gonna discharge to outpatient care and you're gonna discharge to a functioning structured schedule. So this is really important, right? I want you at discharge to have a clear plan for what you're going to be doing, we don't want you to go home without a plan and to, you know, potentially revert back to sleeping in staying in your room, right? Those sort of things we want you to go back to a schedule because one of the benefits of being in our program is how scheduled and structured. It is Kimberley Quinlan: And I love this because as a treatment provider, anytime a client of mine has come back from residential or some kind of intensive treatment, the therapist that they were working with gives me this plan right? Or the The client brings me the plan and so I'm I hit the, what's The saying? Hit the ground running. Like I know what the plan is that we already have it. Elizabeth McIngvale: Yep. Kimberley Quinlan: It's not like we have to go and create a whole nother treatment plan. It's usually coming handed off really beautifully, which makes that process like so easy. Elizabeth McIngvale:  that's, Kimberley Quinlan: For an outpatient provider to to take that client back. Elizabeth McIngvale: Our goal, right? Our goal is that if you referred someone to meet him, I'm gonna be talking to you before I start working with them and I'm certainly going to be talking to you as we're getting close to discharge and around the time of discharge to transition that care. Right? Seamless,… Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Elizabeth McIngvale: we want it to be smooth and we want the patient to feel like there's not an interruption in their treatment. Kimberley Quinlan:  Right. Oh my gosh. So, good. Is there anything we've missed? Do you feel? Elizabeth McIngvale: Not really, you know, I think I get this question a lot, you know, across the board everything we've talked about just because I've personally experienced this, I do this myself professionally and Here's what I'll tell you guys. Treatment is fair is scary No matter what. It doesn't matter if we're doing on outpatient level or an intensive level, right? We're being asked to face our fears or being asked to do things that terrify us I know and many of our listeners know that treatment can and will save your life. And so if you're questioning if you're ready, if it makes sense, you may not ever feel ready and it may not ever make sense. But what I can promise you is that if you put forth the work,… 00:40:00 Kimberley Quinlan: If? Elizabeth McIngvale: the outcome is incredible. And I am someone who sits right here as Elizabeth McIngvale: Someone who really believes in full circle moments. Because the program that I attended when I was 15 is the program. I now get to run every day. Kimberley Quinlan:  It makes me want to cry. Elizabeth McIngvale: And it is, it is I can tell you. I I love my job and every person at our team here at the Houston OCD Institute. We are driven by the opportunity to help individuals change their own life through treatment and it works. I wouldn't you know Kim those of us with lived experiences even if it's different we wouldn't be doing the work that we do. If we didn't know it worked What a friend,… Kimberley Quinlan:  All right. Elizabeth McIngvale: what a horrible life if I had to be a fraud every day pretending for didn't, you know, I couldn't but we do this, we make a career out of it and and we get to keep changing lives and keep hopefully doing for others. What some people did for us when we really needed it. And I'm very grateful that I have the opportunity to be at a… Kimberley Quinlan: So beautiful. Elizabeth McIngvale: where I can now help other people. And what I can promise you is that with the right treatment, you can be at a place where you can be doing, whatever it is. You're meant to be doing not what OCD wants you to be doing. Kimberley Quinlan: So beautiful. My curiosity is killing me here. So I'm just gonna have to ask you one more question, is it the same location? Elizabeth McIngvale: It is not. So when I was a patient it was impatient actually at the Meninger clinic. So it was in that hospital setting and they closed their program in 2008 and then it became an offset. And so it's now we're our own facility and a beautiful house. And we're in a beautiful neighborhood in the Heights that you can walk around in Houston. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Elizabeth McIngvale: So it is not a hospital setting but it is the same program for all intensive purposes. Kimberley Quinlan:  Right? That is so cool. I am so grateful for you. Thank you so much now um I know you've shared a little bit but do you want to tell us where people can get a hold of you, any social media websites, and so forth. Elizabeth McIngvale: Yes. Yes, please feel free to reach out anytime y'all want my instagram and handle is Dr. Liz OCD. So you can always reach out there or find resources and support but for our website you can go to Houston OCDI.ORG or you can give us a call at 713-526-5055. And what I'll tell you is that I'm always available to help answer questions offer support and that doesn't mean you have to choose our program, but I would love to give good insight into what you should look for. And what I will say is, I know, can you talk about us all the time? You want to make sure the program that you're attending engages in evidence-based care so for OCD that's going to be ERP and often a combination of medication and that they really specialize in treating solely anxiety and OCD and OCD related disorders at the intens Or you want to be cautious? Not to go to a program. That's a really mixed program that says, they can also treat OCD. I don't think that'll be the same experience. Kimberley Quinlan: Agreed agreed, So grateful for you. This I feel like this has been so beautifully. Put like in terms of like explaining the whole step, their questions. I will be I'll be referring patients to this episode all the time because these are common questions we get asked. So thank you so much for coming on.Elizabeth McIngvale:  Well, thank you for having me. Anything I can never offer. Please never hesitate to reach out, and thank you for all that you do in the awareness and education you spread in our field.

Depression is a liar. If you have depression, the chances are, it’s lying to you too.  Depression is a very, very common mental health disorder, and it tends to be a very effective liar. My hope today is to get you to see the ways that it lies to you—the ways in which depression lies to you, and gets you to believe things that are not true.  I believe that this part of depression, this component of managing depression is so important because the way in which depression lies to us, impacts how we see ourselves in the world, how we see the future, how we see other people, how we see our lives playing out. And that in and of itself can be devastating.  Today, I want to talk about, number one, the ways in which depression lies to us and what we can do to manage that. Let’s get going.  THEMES OF DEPRESSION Before we start, let’s talk about the themes of depression. Now, the way it was trained to me is that there are three core themes of depression. The first one being hopelessness, the second one being helplessness, and the third being worthlessness. It will often target one, some, or all of these themes. Let’s go through those here and break it down.  DEPRESSION LIES ABOUT THE FUTURE This is where it can really make us feel very hopeless. Depression says your future won’t be good. You won’t amount to anything. You won’t be successful. You won’t have a relationship if that’s important to you. You won’t have kids if that’s important to you. It often will target the things that we deeply value and it’ll tell us you won’t get those things or you’ll be doing those things wrong. Or in some ways, something bad will happen. When it targets the future, that is often when we begin to feel very hopeless. When we think about the way the human brain works, our brain does things right now, even things it doesn’t want to do, knowing that it’ll get a benefit or a payoff or a wonderful, joyful result. But if your brain is telling you that the result is always going to be bad, that’s going to create an experience where you feel like there’s no point. What’s the point of doing this hard thing if my depression is telling me the future is going to be crummy anyway? What we want to do is get very skilled at catching it in its lies about the future.  DEPRESSION LIES ABOUT THE PAST Depression will tell you, you did something wrong. You’re terrible. That thing you did really ruined your life or ruined somebody else’s life, or is proof that you’re a bad person. Depression loves to ruminate on that specific event or an array of events. What we end up doing is cycling and gathering evidence. This is what depression does. It gathers evidence to back its point. What we end up doing is instead of seeing the event for what it is, which is both probably positive and negative, depression likes to magnify all of the things that you did wrong or that didn’t go well. And then it wants to disqualify the positive. Often patients of mine with depression will say, “Oh, I’m a terrible person. I did this terrible thing,” or “I made this terrible mistake or accident.” I’ll look and say, “Okay, but what about the other times where maybe you didn’t make a mistake and so forth?” They will disqualify that as if it means nothing to them. It does mean something to them, but often the way in fact depression functions is it keeps you looking at the negative. And that’s how you get stuck in that cycle of rumination on the negative—feeling worse and worse, feeling more shame, feeling more guilt, feeling more dread, feeling often numb because the depression is so, so strong.  Now, this is where I’m going to offer to you to reframe things a little bit and look at helplessness. Depression will also tell us: “There is no one who can help you. There is no amount of support that can help you. You’re helpless.” Often when people come to me for their first time in session, they will say, “I’m here. I understand you can help me. But at the end of the day, I don’t even think you can help me.” Maybe they’ve read one of my articles on the internet or they’ve listened to a podcast and they go, “You’re speaking to exactly what I’m going through, but I still don’t even believe you can help me.” This is where I can give them all the science and show them that I can help them and that there’s treatment for depression, and it’s very science-based. The depression will still lie to them and say, “There’s no point. You’re helpless.” Now, the last piece here is about worth, and I’ll touch on that here in just a little bit. Before we move into that, I want to share with you that the reason I was so excited to talk about this with you today is I’m in the process of creating a course for OCD. I’m contributing this to a bigger company and I will be creating it. You guys can have access to it too here very soon. As I was creating it, I was really starting to see and talk to a lot of people with depression and talk to people on social media. The biggest message people were saying is, “OCD lies to me. It tells me these things. My friends, my loved ones tell me that that can’t possibly be true. They don’t see any of these negative things, but to me, it feels so true.” I wanted to let you know that we do have an online course for depression. You can go to CBTSchool.com/depression to hear more about it.  DEPRESSION LIES ABOUT YOUR WORTH.  Remember, one of the themes of depression is worthlessness. What it does there is it tells you, you are bad. Now, we know this can be the voice of shame, but depression and shame go very well together. In fact, they can have a whole party together if we let it go on for too long, telling you, you are bad, there is something innately wrong with you. This is a lie depression will tell you over and over again. When I say it’s a lie, believe me, it is a lie. This is what I always will say with my patients—if we went to a court, we put it up with the jury and we said, “This person would like to claim that they are worthless.” Then the jury is going to say, “Where is your evidence?” We’re not really going to put you up in front of a jury. I don’t want that to frighten you. But if we were, they would say, “Show me the evidence.” Then the attorney would bring in all of the evidence of the facts that you’re a wonderful person, that you’re innately worthy, that you do these kind things, that you deeply care about other people, that you’re a human being, and just being a human being means you’re worthy. We would have all these people come in and bring evidence, but the person with depression, their OCD will gently or very meanly whisper in their ear, “That’s not true,” despite all the evidence.  Now we know if this was an actual court case, the judge would throw this case out. They’d go, “There is a profound degree of evidence that this person is worthy. There is a profound degree of evidence that this person can rebuild their life and get their life back on track even if they’re really struggling and functioning with depression.” We know this to be true. I’ve seen it every day in my practice. I’ve seen people with depression manage it and go on to live wonderfully fulfilling lives.  For you, I want you to keep that imagery in your mind, of that jury throwing your case out and that judge throwing your case out because the evidence does not support depression’s case. It wouldn’t last a second in court. Again, a lot of the points I made there are really important if you’re struggling with worthlessness. You being a human being makes you innately worthy. You’re not worthy one day because you did well on an exam but not worthy the next day because you crashed your car. It doesn’t work like that. We’re all worthy. So we have to remember that and keep that in the front of our mind, even if depression has a lot to say about that.  DEPRESSION LIES ABOUT WHO YOU ARE  Depression—not only does it lie about your future, not only does it lie about your past, not only does it lie about your worth, it lies about you in general. Your job and my job as a therapist is to help our minds. My job as a human, I should say, is to help our minds by being able to observe and be aware of our thoughts and catch when it’s in the trend of these areas—worthlessness, hopelessness, and helplessness. If it’s got any theme of those and it’s very strong and very black and white, chances are, it’s depression. We can then work and get tools to manage that.  OVERCOMING DEPRESSION Now, as I said, I do have an online course because a lot of you will not be able to have therapy with me. First of all, I’m always going to encourage you, go and see a therapist if you can if you have depression. Over any course I could ever offer you, I would always encourage you to first see if you can get access to a mental health therapist. However, if you don’t have access to that, you can go to the course to get some tools, strategies, and depression tips that you could be practicing. We go through and look at changing your thoughts. We go through changing your behaviors, looking at your activity schedule, looking at motivation. We look at a lot of that, but that is not therapy. The course is not therapy. It is not a specific depression treatment. But I will teach you everything that I tell my patients in my office. DEPRESSION TIPS & DEPRESSION TOOLS  Now, before we end this, I want to first go through some depression tips & depression tools that I want to send you off with today so that you can get started right away. I really believe Your Anxiety Toolkit is all about giving as many anxiety and depression tips, tools and helpful skills as we can, so I want to send you away with some bite-size ideas on that you can start immediately.  Tip #1: Start a self-compassion practice The biggest thing that depression does is it bullies us. It says horrible, mean things that you would never say to not only a loved one, even someone you hate. You probably wouldn’t say as many mean things as depression has to say. Number one, start with a self-compassion and mindfulness practice. A part of your self-compassion practice is talking back to depression. Now remember, self-compassion is nurturing, it’s kind, but it also doesn’t set back and let people push you around. Self-compassion would never have you be bullied. If you were in a compassionate place and you saw someone else being bullied, chances are, you’d step in and say, “Hey, this isn’t right,” or you’d call someone who could come and assist them. Now, this goes for depression as well.  Here I want you to remember, if depression is bullying you and telling you lies, you’re going to have to talk back to it. I will say, I do not mind if you swear. I do not mind if you have to get a little aggressive with it. I will share with you personally the most common depressive thought that I have, and I have it a lot—you cannot handle this. I hear it many times in the day. In fact, now it almost makes me laugh a little bit because it’s very boring. Depression needs to come up with some new jokes because this is the one it uses with me all the time. Often when it says that, no longer do I believe it and agree with it and go ahead and listen to what it has to say. Now, I come back with evidence and say, “You know what? I can handle it because I’ve handled it before. In fact, I’ve handled much worse than this. So depression, you can go and do whatever it is that you need to do, but you don’t get to bully me anymore.” Some people find that it’s better to absolutely swear the biggest profanity and say, “FU, depression. Back off! You know nothing about me and you know nothing about my future and know nothing about my past, and I’m going to politely ask you to sit down because I got this.” You can talk to depression in whatever way is helpful to you as long as you’re talking to it as separate, not to you in the way where you’re saying and swearing at yourself.  Now we also know there is some evidence that you can use your name by saying, “No, Kimberley can handle this. Thank you, depression.” Using the third person, we’ve got research and science to show that that is very empowering. I could say to depression, “Thank you, depression, but Kimberley has got this. She is going to do her best. She’s going to put one foot forward and please sit down because you don’t get to tell her what to do today.” That is how we can talk back to depression.  Tip #2: Keep your expectations small I know when you’re suffering and you’re starting to lose your functioning and depression is taking a lot from you. It’s taken your friendships, your time, taking you away from events. It’s made you miss being present with your children or your family or your loved ones. I know what it can feel like in that you feel like you have to catch up somehow. What I want to offer to you is, yes, I know you want to catch up, but the only way to catch up is to do baby steps. Please don’t try and push yourself with pressure to catch up at a rate where it doesn’t help you. In fact, when we put a lot of pressure on ourselves, we actually create a lot more depression because it feels scary, it feels more overwhelming, which your depression is already done to you. What I want you to do is make small, realistic expectations for the day and work at keeping the expectations small and then build on them. As you do something that was just baby steps, your depression is going to say, “See, what a loser? You’re doing only small steps? You should be doing big steps.” This is where you’re going to go back and talk to depression and say, “Back off! I’m doing what I need to do today to take you over. I’m taking you down, depression, and I’m going to do it slowly and compassionately. It will work because I’m building habit upon habit, not just pushing myself out of self-punishment and self-judgment, and self-criticism.” We know that those behaviors make depression worse, so we’re actually going to cheer ourselves on.  Tip #3 Celebrate your wins That is the big piece that we need to remember. The best way to change the mindset over depression is to be kind and to cheer ourselves on, to motivate ourselves, to celebrate when you make a baby step. I celebrate you if you’re making baby steps. Even listening to this right now, I celebrate you. You’re investing in your well-being. We want to make sure we’re cheering you on. I call it the kind coach. It’s the voice that says, “You can do it. Just a little more. Keep going. I believe in you. Just a little more. What would be right for you? What do you need?” It takes into consideration that, of course, you’re going to have challenges. But when you have challenges, it’s there to say, “What can we do to strategize? Maybe we need to rethink this. How can we rethink this in a way that makes it possible for you just to get back on track?” Baby steps at a time. I hope that was helpful. I really wanted to go over and really reinforce to you and hopefully get you to see that depression is a wire and depression is lying to you. A big part of that is you recognizing and being aware and observing and catching when it lies to you and having skills so that you can talk back to it, change the way you respond so that you’re not contributing and making the depression stronger.  Have a wonderful day. You guys always know, I’m always going to say it is a beautiful day to do hard things. I hope that this was helpful and I hope you have a wonderful day.

Transcript Kimberley Quinlan: Well welcome, I cannot believe this is so exciting. I've been looking forward to this episode all week. We have the amazing. Reverend Katie O’Dunne with us to talk all about scrupulosity and religious obsessions. So welcome, Katie. Katie O'Dunne: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here and to chat about all things Faith and OCD. So thanks for having me. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, so let me just quickly share in ERP school we have these underneath every training, every video. There's a little question and answer and I'm very confident in answering them, but when it comes to the specifics of religion, I always try to refer to someone who is, like an expert. And so this is so timely because I feel like you are perfect to answer some of these questions. Some of the questions we have here are from, ERP school. A lot of them are from social media and so I'm so excited to chat with you.  Katie O'Dunne: Thank you. Kimberley Quinlan: So tell us before we get into the questions, a little about your story and you know why you are here today? Katie O'Dunne:  Yeah. So I've navigated OCD since before I can remember, but just like maybe a lot of folks listening. I was very private about that for a very long time. I had a lot of shame around, intrusive thoughts. I had a lot of shame around religious obsessions that I had, moral related obsessions, harm obsessions. And this shame particularly came because I was pursuing ministry and OCD really spiked in the midst of me going to graduate school, going to seminary. And when I was in seminary and I started really struggling, I wanted to seek treatment for the first time and was told really by a mentor that it would not help me to do that. In my ministry that I wouldn't pass my psych evaluations and that I shouldn't pursue treatment that I needed to keep that on the down low. So as many of us know, that might not get that effective evidence-based treatment I continued to get sicker Katie O'Dunne: And had a really pretty full-blown OCD episode in my first role in ministry. Katie O'Dunne: So I ended up in school chaplaincy working, with lots of students from different faith backgrounds, some of what we'll be talking about today, through an OCD lens. And I was trying to keep my OCD a secret, but in the midst of navigating, some difficult tragedies and traumas with students, my OCD latched on to every aspect of what I was navigating. And particularly in the midst of that, I was experiencing losses and mental health crises with students from different faith backgrounds. And when I came out of my own treatment, where exposure and response prevention, very much saved my life. I felt like, I had an obligation to those students that I worked with to let them know that their chaplain, that their faith leader had gone through mental health treatment and that there was no shame around doing that. And I went from the space, in seminary of being told that I shouldn't seek treatment to a space of having families call me for the first time and say, Oh now we can actually talk to you about what's going on in our life. Can you help us talk with our rabbi or our imam, or our priest about my child's diagnosis? How can we reconcile faith with treatment and that opened the door for me to continue this work in a full-time way. Where moving from those students that I love so much and  now work in the area of faith and OCD full-time helping folks, navigate religious scrupulosity and very much lean into evidence-based treatment while also reconnecting with their faith in ways that are value driven to them and not dictated by OCD. Kimberley Quinlan: Hmm, it makes me teary. Just to hear you say  that folks were saying, Well, now, I can share with you. That is so interesting to me. You know, I think of a reverend, as like, you can go to them with anything, you know, and for them to say that you're disclosing has open some doors, that's incredible. Katie O'Dunne: And particularly, I worked really heavily with my Hindu and Muslim students. And we had the chance to do some really awesome mental health initiatives for the South Asian community, where students started then doing projects actually in their own faith communities, and opening up about their own journeys, and then giving other space to do the same. And I really, I think about the work I do now, which is very much across faith traditions around OCD. And every person I work with, I think of those awesomely brave students, who started to come to me after my disclosure and say, Okay, we want help and also we want to share our stories and continues to inspire me. DOES RELIGIOUS OCD/SCRUPULOSITY SHOW UP BEYOND THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION?  Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, so cool!  It leads me to my first question which is, does this for OCD religious scrupulosity, have you found, and I  definitely have,  that It goes outside of just the Christian religion. I know we hear a lot about just the Christian religion, but can you kind of give me your experience with some other religions you've had to work with? 00:05:00 Katie O'Dunne: Yeah. And so I always tell folks OCD is OCD, is OCD. And it always loves to latch on to those things that are the most significant and important to us. So it makes a lot of sense, that, that would happen with our faith tradition, whether you're Christian or Muslim or Buddhist or Sheik, or beyond or even atheist or agnostic can really transform into anything, particularly from what, you might be hearing from faith leaders and I always go back to this idea that OCD is just really gross ice cream with a lot of different gross flavors and those flavors might be in the form of the Christian faith or in the Jewish faith or in the Muslim faith. But the really big commonalities is the fact that it's not about what a person actually believes just like, with everything else with OCD. This is very much egoistonic. It's taking their beliefs. It's twisting them and it's actually pushing them further away from the tradition. So, it's just some examples. Katie O'Dunne:  That we see, of course, in Christianity, you all might be familiar with obsessions around committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, or fear of going to hell or fear of sinning in some way. But we also see lots of different things in Islam, whether that's around not being fully focused during Friday prayers or not doing ritual washing in the appropriate way. In Judaism we see so many different things around dietary restrictions or breaking religious law. What if I'm not praying correctly? Hinduism, even what if I'm pronouncing shlokas or mantras incorrectly? What if I have done something to impact my karma or my dharma? What if I'm focusing too heavily on a particular deity or not engaging in puja correctly. or in Buddhism I see a lot of folks, really focusing on what if I never stop suffering, What if I've impacted my karma in some way? What if I don't have pure intention, alongside that action and… Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Katie O'Dunne: then all the way on the other side. We can see with any type of non-theism or atheism, agnosticism humanism What if I believe the wrong thing? What if I'm supposed to believe in God, what if I'll be punished for for not? So there are all different forms and then with any faith, tradition. I mean any form possible. That OCD could latch onto Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, absolutely I think there's just some amazing examples I had once a client who felt his frustrations weren't correct. Katie O'Dunne:  Yes. Kimberley Quinlan: And got stuck really continue and trying to perfect it so I think it can fall into any of those religions for sure. So you've already touched on this a little bit, but this was one of the questions that came from Instagram. Just basically there was saying like OCD makes me doubt my faith. Like why does it do that? Do you have any thoughts, on a specifically why OCD can make us doubt our faith? Katie O'Dunne: Yeah. I mean OCD is the doubting disorder and we always say the content is irrelevant, but it definitely doesn't feel like it. I think for anybody navigating OCD, you're most likely in a space of saying I could accept uncertainty about any theme except the one that I have right now and that's very much true with faith. If your faith is something that's significant to you and at the center of your life, it makes sense that OCD would latch on to that and that OCD would twist that particularly… Kimberley Quinlan:  Right. Katie O'Dunne: because we really don't have a whole lot of certainty around faith to begin with and where there's a disorder that surrounds uncertainty and and doubt. That makes a lot of sense. And yet it's so so challenging, um, because we want to be able to answer all of these questions without OCD making us question every single thing we believe, WHEN OCD DOUBTS MY FAITH Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm. It's sort of like religious obsession. I mean relationship obsessions too in that and you're probably looking at people across the your religious faith hall or wherever going, but they are certain like why can't I get that certainty? Right. But it's like they've accepted a degree of uncertainty for them to feel certain in it. But when you have OCD, it's so hard to accept that uncertainty piece of it. Katie O'Dunne: I'm so glad you said that I actually get this question a lot. And this, this might be a strange answer for folks to hear from a minister. But I always tell folks, I'm not certain I Have devoted my life to faith traditions. I'm ordained. I'm not certain about anything including about the divine. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Katie O'Dunne: I have really strong beliefs, I have strong things that I lead lean into and practices that are meaningful to me. But it doesn't mean that I have certainty. And often, when you hear someone in a faith tradition, say that there are certain, I don't think it means the same thing as what we're thinking, it means from. 00:10:00 Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. it's Yeah,… Katie O'Dunne: a different context. They are accepting some level of uncertainty. Kimberley Quinlan: that's why I compared it to relationship OCD, You're like, but I'm not sure if I love my partner enough and everybody else is really certain but when you really ask them, they're like, No I'm not completely certain,… Katie O'Dunne: Yeah. WILL GOD PUNISH ME FOR MY INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS? Kimberley Quinlan: like I'm just certain for today or whatever it may be. So I think that that is very much a typical trade of OCD in that, it requires 100%, okay? So, so, This is actually really one of the first common questions we get when we're doing psychoeducation with clients. Which is why do I have a fear that God will punish me for my intrusive thoughts? You want to share a little about that. Katie O'Dunne: Yeah, I mean there are so many, there are so many layers with this and again, latching on to what's the most important but also latching on to particular teachings. Whether it's in a church or a mosque or a synagogue where I always say there are particular scriptures, particular, teachings, particular sermons, where you might hear things that relate to punishment in some way, or relate to rigidity, but I think folks, with OCD hear those, through a very different lens than maybe someone else in that congregation and we might hear something once at age, five or six and for the rest of our lives latch on to this idea that we're doing something wrong or that God is going to punish us, we tend to always see everything through that really, really negative lens and maybe miss all of the other things that we hear about compassion and about love and forgiveness. And I think there's also this layer for individuals with OCD often holding themselves to a higher standard than everyone else and that includes the way that they see God as viewing them. So I'll often ask folks. How do you think, how do you imagine God, viewing a friend in the situation? Just like we might do a self compassion work and they're like, Well, I believe God would be really forgiving of my friend and that they might not be perfect but that they were created to live this beautiful life. And then when asking the same thing about themselves, It's but God called me to be perfect and I have to do all of these things right. I'll ask often ask folks, What does it look like to see yourself through the same loving eyes through which God sees you or which you imagine that God sees those around you which is something we don't often do with OCD. Kimberley Quinlan: And what would they often say? Katie O'Dunne: Ah well it's so I'll actually use self-compassion practices to to turn things around. And I'll say I'll ask someone to name three kind things about themselves and then to put their hand over their heart and actually say it through the lens of God saying that to them. So I'll have them say something like The Divine created me to be compassionate, the Divine believes that I am a kind person, the Divine wants me to have this beautiful life and to be a good runner or a good baseball player or whatever that is. And it's always really difficult at the beginning just like any self-compassion practice. And then I'll watch folks start to smile and say Well maybe God does see me in that way. Kimberley Quinlan: That's lovely. Katie O'Dunne: Maybe create me in a beautiful way. DO NOT FEAR…SHOULD I TURN MY FEARS OVER TO GOD? Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm. That's what it's bringing them. Back to their religion and their faith when they do that, which is so beautiful, isn't it? Mmm. Okay, This question is very similar but I really think it was important to to address is there are some scriptures where people here that they aren't allowed to fear or that they must turn their fears over to God. Do you have any thoughts or you know, responses that you would typically use for that concern? Katie O'Dunne: Mm-hmm. Katie O'Dunne:  Yeah, I think, you know, it looks very different across faith traditions and across scriptures and individuals, of course, view Scripture and in very different ways but depending on their denomination, or depending on their sect, but I think sometimes, unfortunately, those scriptures are used out of context. We see this often where there might be a particular verse that's pulled that from a translation perspective isn't necessarily really about anxiety in the same way that we're defining anxiety through an OCD lens or isn't really about intrusive thoughts, in the way that we're defining it through the lens of OCD. And I think it's really unfortunate when we hear religious leaders or folks in communities say, Well, you aren't allowed to fear or if you just prayed a little bit harder, your anxieties would be able to be turned over to God. And I think we're hearing that or they're using that and maybe a different way than the passage was intended. And then we're hearing this through a whole nother another layer where it actually could be flipped. And instead, when you're you're saying, Don't fear. I always tell folks. So what does it look like instead to not fear treatment or to do it  even if you're afraid. To ask God, to give you strength in the midst of that fear  and to approach that in a different way. But I think sometimes those who are taking particular passages out of context, might not fully understand the weight of OCD, or what comes with that condition. 00:15:00 HOW DO I KNOW IF IT IS OCD OR IN LINE WITH THE RULES OF MY FAITH? Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Right. I love that. Thank you for sharing. That was actually the most common question, I think. So like four or five people off the same question. So I know that's a such an important question that we addressed. Quite a few people also asked how to differentiate like, you know with OCD treatment, it's about sort of understanding and being aware of when OCD is present and how it plays its games, and it's tricks in its tools that it uses. How would people know whether something is OCD or actually in line with the rules of their faith? Do you have any sort of suggestions for people who are struggling with that? Katie O'Dunne:  Yeah, so I'll actually often show folks a chart when we start to work together and we'll put things in different buckets of what are things that you're doing, because they are meaningful because they bring you hope because they bring you comfort because they bring you joy. And then on the other hand, What are things that you're doing out of fear? Out of anxiety things, that feel urgent things that are really uncomfortable. And of course, there is never any certainty around anything, which is very much one of the tricky parts with with treatment, right? We want to have certainty but I invite folks to really make the assumption that probably those things that bring joy and meaning and hope and passion and connection are the authentic versions of their faith. Versus the things that we're doing out of fear or anxiety. And, you know, I was doing a training, a couple months ago for clinicians in this area and I was, I was talking about how, you know, we don't necessarily want folks to pray out a fear and someone had a really great question. They said. Okay. But if a plane is going down and someone's praying because they're afraid like that's not because it's OCD, I'm like No that's that's very true. But in that situation they are praying because they're afraid to bring meaning and hope they're not praying because they're afraid of not praying and… Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Katie O'Dunne: there's a very big distinction there. Are you doing the practice? Because you're afraid of not doing it or not or you're afraid of not doing it perfectly, or are you engaging in that practice even in moments that are tough in order to bring you peace and meaning and joy and comfort. WHEN PRAYER BECOMES A COMPULSION  Kimberley Quinlan:  And that if that, maybe I've got this wrong so please check me on this, but it feels like too, when people often ask me that similar question but not around compulsive praying of like, but if there is a problem, shouldn't I actually do something about it? And I'm like, Well, this that's a difference between doing something about something when there is an actual problem compared to doing something because maybe something might happen in the future, right? It's such a trick that OCD plays. Is it gets you to do things just in case. So would that be true of that as well? Katie O'Dunne: Okay. Yeah. And I often tell folks just again because it's just another form of OCD that's latching on to something that significant very similar. I tell folks, if it's really a problem that you need to address, most likely you would do it without asking the question to begin with. But it's I think the unfortunate thing that the other example I give is well, if we think most traditions we think of God as a parent figure and I ask folks, who are our parents to imagine their relationship with their own child, and do you want your child to connect with you throughout the day out of meaning and out of hope and out of genuine, a genuine desire for love or because they're afraid of not talking to you and… Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Katie O'Dunne: those are two. Those are two very, very different things. Kimberley Quinlan:  Right. As it's like a disciplinarian figure. Yeah, that's a really great example. I love that. Yeah. Okay. This is, this was one of the questions that I got, but it's actually one of the cases that I have had in my career, as well, which is around the belief that thoughts are equal to deeds, right? Like that. If I think it, it must mean, I love it, I like it, or I want it or I've done it. Can you give some perspective to that from from specifically related to religious obsessions? Katie O'Dunne:  00:20:00 Katie O'DunneYeah this can be really hard for folks and of course with OCD thought actions fusion can be really challenging anyway and there is often, for folks in a faith context this belief that because I had this though, because I had what might be perceived as a sinful thought, I must be committing blasphemy, or I must be committing this particular sin and that can make it really really tought to do diffusion work with you clinician because its like I had this thought it must actually mean that I have done this thing that is in opposition to God and I always tell folks that of course I am not going to reassure you fully that those things are completely separate but I would invite you to lean into the possibility that a thought is just a thought. Just like any other aspect of OCD we have a jillion different thoughts a day that pass into and out of our minds and I actually think from a faith perspective that it is pretty cool that our brains produce alot of different thoughts, that we see things and make different associations. Ill tell folks way to do God we see things and make all sorts of connections. But, having thought doesn't equate to having a particular action even if we are looking on the form of most scriptures. It is really referencing things that we are doing, ways that we are actually engaging with those thoughts and taking that into our actions. And again from the pulpit, you might hear someone talk about thoughts or intrusive thoughts in ways that are not equivalent to how we're talking about them through an OCD lens,… Kimberley Quinlan:  Mm-hmm. Katie O'Dunne: something very different and they're really talking about more of an intentional act, in something that you're you're doing, as opposed to what we're thinking about. It's just a biological process of thoughts, moving through your mind. ARE THOUGHTS EQUAL TO DEEDS? Kimberley Quinlan:  Right. And and what I be right in clarifying here, is it important to differentiate between a thought you had compared to a thought that's intrusive, is that an important piece or do we not need to go to that level? Katie O'Dunne: Do you mean, in the religious context? I, I don't know. I mean, I, I'm curious what you think from a clinical I go back to thoughts or thoughts or thoughts and… Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Katie O'Dunne: they are intrusive because we're labeling them as intrusive. Unfortunately, sometimes in religious context, and I hear this a lot, someone might go to… I hear actually from sermons all the time, where someone is saying that intrusive thoughts or in some way sinful and really what they're thinking are just regular thoughts that people are giving value to and… Kimberley Quinlan:  Yeah. Yeah. Katie O'Dunne: it makes it makes it really challenging for folks where they're giving more value to their thoughts and then thinking, well my preacher said that if I have a thought that's quote unquote bad that it means something about me. EXPOSURE & RESPONSE PREVENTION (ERP) FOR RELIGIOUS OBSESSIONS/SCRUPULOSITY Kimberley Quinlan:  I think you just hit the nail on the head,  when we apply judgment to a thought as good or bad, then we're in trouble, right. That's when things start to go sticky. Yeah. Okay, excellent. Okay. Let's talk about specific treatment for religious obsessions and exposure examples. I know for those listening we have done an episode with Jud  Steve,  I will link that in the show notes. He did go over some but I just love for you to go over like what are some examples of exposures? And how might we approach exposure and response prevention, specifically related to these religious obsessions? Katie O'Dunne: Yeah, so his health folks, I'm not I'm not a clinician, but I work alongside a lot of really amazing clinicians in religious scrupulosity to develop exposure hierarchies. And one of the big fears when I'm working with someone is often, how could I possibly engage in exposure and response prevention because what if someone asked me to do something that's in opposition to my faith? And I want to go ahead and just put that on the table right now… I know that's a big fear and I want you to know that a good OCD specialist or an ERP therapist is really gonna work with you not to go against or to oppose your faith. But to do some things that are a little bit uncomfortable in service of you, being able to get back to your faith in a value-driven way. Katie O'Dunne: I really believe we are never going to be incredibly excited about exposures. When I was on my own exposure and response, prevention journey, I never once walked into the office and said, Yes, I get to do this really scary exposure today. It's gonna be so fun. Well, I guess I did say that because my therapist made me pretend to be excited about exposures, but that's different. That's a different conversation was not necessarily genuine. And so i’ll often ask folks, I know that this isn't something that you want to do, but why don't you want to do it? And if the answer is well, I'm afraid that it might upset God or I'm afraid something bad might happen. That’s probably a good exposure. If the immediate response is Well, no, I'm not gonna do that. No one else in my tradition would do that. That's completely in opposition to everything we believe, probably not something that that we would ask you to do and often clinicians will use the 80/20 rule of what would 80% of the folks within your congregation be willing to do and that can be really helpful working with a faith leader as well or with other folks within your particular sect or denomination to establish that. 00:25:00 Katie O'Dunne:  The same time there. Oh my goodness, so many different exposures that we can go into. But a lot of things that I see folks commonly working on are things like praying imperfectly maybe speaking or speaking of blasphemous thought aloud or thinking through that in an intentional way, writing an aspect of that, not completing ritual washing again and again only doing it once and even thinking through the fact that it might not have been perfect that time or maybe even intentionally diverting your attention in the midst of a prayer. Sometimes for folks who are avoiding Scripture that is intentionally reading that aspect of Scripture and then maybe thinking intentionally about something that they've thought as a bad thought or that they've defined in that way. But again it very much depends for each person and I really want folks to know that it doesn't mean that you are going to be asked to eat something that goes against your dietary restrictions or to deface a religious text. Those are the two things I hear folks, very fearful of and that isn't something that you need to do in order to get better. It's about having conversation and handing over the keys to your clinician to do some uncomfortable stuff in favor of getting back to your faith in a value-driven way. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, I love that. I'll tell a quick story, when I was a new intern treating OCD having no clue really what I was doing. I'm very happy to disclose that was the facts, but I had amazing supervisors and I grew up in an Episcopalian denomination and I had a client who was of similar denomination in the Christian faith. And my supervisor said, Well, okay, you're gonna have him go and say the blasphemous words and in my mind, this being my first case going like are we allowed, like side eye.And he said Okay this is your first go around. I want you to ask your client to go and speak with their religious leader and say, This is what I'm struggling with. AndI have this diagnosis and this is the treatment, it's the gold standard and Kimberley's gonna go with you and do we have permission to proceed and the minister was so wonderful. He said, If that is what's gonna bring you closer to your faith, go as hard as you can. And for me, it was just such a beautiful experience as a new clinician to have. He knew nothing about OCD but he was like if that's what you need to do to get closer, go. Like he had so much Faith himself in, I know it'll bring you to the right place and so it's so beautiful for me and that kind of helped me guide my clients to this day. Like go and get permission speak to your minister if that helps you to move forward, do you have any thoughts on that? Katie O'Dunne: Oh yes, and this is really my favorite thing that I get to do with folks in addition to working with clinicians and clients and developing exposures, also in faith traditions that are not my own, but then I might have studied make connections to other faith leaders so we can talk about what makes the most sense in this particular set so that someone can fully live into their faith tradition while well, maybe being a little uncomfortable in this moment or doing something tough and I deeply believe whatever that looks like for you, even if the exposure seems a little bit scary, that God can handle our exposures. Across faith traditions. We see the divine as this big, wonderful powerful all knowing force and with everything going on in the world, I deeply believe theologically that the exposure that we're doing over here, which might seem really hard for us, that God can handle that as a way for us to get back to doing the things that we were actually created to do. And in that way, similar to the minister that you talked with that said, Hey, go for it. I'll even tell folks, I see ERP as a spiritual practice because a spiritual practice is defined as anything that helps you to reconnect or get closer with the divine and in that way, doing ERP really does that because it's breaking down the OCD so that you almost stop worshiping OCD and actually reconnect with God in a way that's value driven for you. That's actually what I'm getting ready to start. My doctoral research on is actually redefining ERP as a spiritual practice across faith traditions in ways that are accessible for a diverse population. Kimberley Quinlan: And that's so beautiful, I love that. Okay, let's see. Okay, This is actually the last question, but this is actually the one I'm most excited to ask. This is actually from someone I deeply care about. They have written in and said, When I get anxious, I try to submit it to God knowing of his love and power. So, by writing a script, which is an ERP practice, for those of you who don't know, it seems I'm in conflict with my religious belief. Do you have any like points, final points, you want to make about that? 00:30:00 Katie O'Dunne: Yeah. So two big things, one going off of what I was just sharing a second ago. I would encourage you to know, or maybe not to know, for sure but, we can lean into uncertainty around this right? But to accept all of the uncertainty, while also leaning in and believing that God can handle this difficult script that you're writing or this difficult exposure that you're doing in favor of you getting to live the life that you were created to live. Not defined by OCD and that you still can pray and ask for God's support as a part of that. I would never ask someone not to continue to connect with God during some of sometimes, the most difficult process of their life which treatment can be, I know it was for me, it was incredibly scary. But rather than asking for reassurance, or asking for God, to undo any of that exposure work we're doing or or saying, oof, disregard this script I just did. We're not, we're not going to do any of those things, but rather, I would invite you to say, in whatever way makes sense to you, Dear God, please help me to lean into the uncertainty, please help me to sit with this discomfort associated with this exposure, on the way to getting back to this big, beautiful, awesome life that you've created me to live. It's really hard right now. This is really tough, but please walk with me as I sit with all of it, helping me not to push away that anxiety, but rather to be with it as I reclaim my life. Amen. Or something of that nature. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan:  Yeah, that's beautiful. So thank you, really. I get teary again, this is such a beautiful conversation. Okay, so number one, thank you so much for coming on, really, it's a blessing to have you here and you know, I think this will help so many folks. Is there something that we didn't cover that you you know that point that you just made alone, I feel like it's like mic drop. But is there anything else you want to add before we finish up? Katie O'Dunne: Yeah, um, and just, and this is a little bit more Christocentric, but I think it goes across faith traditions, I often talk about the recovery Trinity and just to leave folks with this as well. That I deeply believe that it's possible to have faith in yourself, faith in the divine and faith in your treatment all at the same time and that those three pieces coming together, allowing those to be together, actually can be a huge key with religious scrupulosity, and taking a step towards your life during treatment. Kimberley Quinlan: That's beautiful. And I've never heard that before. That is so beautiful. I'll be sure to get my staff all trained up in that as well. Thank you. oh, Katie,… Katie O'Dunne: Oh sorry, one more thing. Sorry, as I say that and I know we're closing out. I also always want folks to know that ERP. This is, this really is my last thing. I promise. Kimberley Quinlan:  Oh no, no. Go for it. You've got the mic go. Katie O'Dunne:  No. Um that I've worked with a lot of folks across traditions with religious scroup and I would say um a majority of the folks that I've worked with have moved through ERP and at the other side actually have a deeper relationship with their faith then maybe they did before and I would encourage you to hear that that actually leaning into that uncertainty translates far beyond OCD sometimes into a closer relationship with God. And I've worked with folks who have moved through ERP that end up going into ministry because that's meaningful to them in a way that isn't driven by OCD. So just knowing that it doesn't ever mean, you're stepping away from your faith, you're taking actually this leap of faith to reconnect with it in a way that's actually authentic to you. Kimberley Quinlan: Mmhm. I'm so grateful that you added that. Isn't that some of the truth, with OCD in general, like the more you want certainty, the less of it you have. And the more you let go of it, the more you can kind of have that value driven life. I love it. Okay, I can't thank you enough, really, this has been such a beautiful conversation. I probably nearly cried like four times and I don't, I don't often get to that. It's just so, so beautiful and deep. And I think it's, it's wonderful. Thank you. Where will people hear about, you get to know you reach out to you and so forth. Katie O'Dunne: Yeah, so folks are more than welcome to reach out to me via Instagram at @RevkRunsBeyondOCD or on my website at RevKatieO'dunne.com. I do lots of work again with clinicians and faith, leaders and clients but also have free weekly faith and OCD support groups along with interfaith prayer services for folks navigating what it means to lean into their faith traditions from a space of uncertainty and an inclusive environment. And then I would also encourage folks to check out our upcoming Faith and OCD conference with the Iocdf in May along with a really awesome resource page that we were so proud to put out last year. I had the chance to work with a really great team of clinicians and faith leaders to create a resource page for all of you to see what scrupulosity might look like in your faith tradition along with resources. So check out all of those wonderful things. 00:35:00 Kimberley Quinlan: Amazing. We will have all that linked in the show notes. Thank you, Katie, really! It's such an honor to have you on the show.Katie O'Dunne: Thank you. This was lovely. Thank you so much.

5 TIPS FOR HEALTH ANXIETY DURING A DRS VISIT If you want my five tips for health anxiety during a Drs visit, especially if you have a medical condition that concerns you, this is the episode for you. Hello and welcome back everybody. Today, I’m going to share some updates about a recent medical issue I have had, and I’m going to share specific tips for dealing with health anxiety (also known as hypochondria).  A lot of you who have been here with me before know I have postural orthostatic tachycardic syndrome. I also have a lesion on my left cerebellum and many other ups and downs in my medical history where I’ve had to get really good at managing my health anxiety. I wanted to share with you some real-time tips that I am practicing as I deal with another medical illness or another medical concern that I wanted to share with you.  Here I’m going to share with you five specific tips, but I think in total, there’s 20-something tips all woven in here. I’ve done my best to put them into just five. But do make sure you listen to the end of the podcast episode because I’m also going to give some health anxiety journal prompts or questions that you can ask yourself so that you can know how to deal with health anxiety if you’re experiencing that at this time.  Before we get into it, let me give you a little bit of a backstory. Several months ago, I did share that I’ve been having these what I call surges. They’re like adrenaline surges. They wake me up. My heart isn’t racing. It’s not like it’s racing fast, but the only way I can explain it is I feel like I have like a racehorse’s heart in my chest, like this huge heart that’s beating really heavily. Of course, that creates anxiety. And so then I would question like, is it the heartbeat or is it just my anxiety? You go back and you go forward trying to figure out which is which. But because this was a symptom that was persisting and was also showing up when I wasn’t experiencing a lot of stress or anxiety, I thought the right thing to do is to go and see the doctor.  WHAT HEALTH ANXIETY FEELS LIKE Before we get started, be sure to make sure you’re not avoiding doctors. Make sure you’re not dismissing symptoms. We do have to find a very, very wise balance between avoiding doctors but also not overdoing it with doctors. We’ll talk about that a little bit here in a minute. But first, I wanted to just share with you what health anxiety feels like for me. Because for me, I’m very, very skilled at identifying what is anxiety and what is not. I’ve become very good at catching that by experience, folks. It’s not something that comes naturally, but by experience, I can identify what is health anxiety and what is a real medical condition or what is something worthy of me getting checked out.  For me, for the health anxiety piece, it’s really this sort of anxiety that is a sense of catastrophization and it’s usually in the form of thoughts like, what if this is cancer? What if this is a stroke? All the worst-case scenarios. What if this is life-threatening? What if I miss this and you are responsible, you should have picked it up. These are very common health anxiety intrusive thoughts or health anxiety thoughts that I think you really need to be able to catch and be aware and mindful of. First of all, that is the biggest symptom for me.  The other thing is when you have health anxiety, you do tend to hyper-fixate on the symptom and all of the surrounding symptoms that are going with that. And then you can really catastrophize those like, “Well, my heart’s beating really heavily and I feel dizzy. Oh my gosh. And I’ve been having a headache. Yeah, you’re right, I’ve been having a headache. Oh my gosh.” I call it ‘gathering.’ That’s not an actual clinical term, but I do use it with my clients. We gather data that is catastrophic to make it seem like, yeah, we actually have a really big point, and this is actually a catastrophe.  Some other health anxiety symptom that I experience is panic. When you notice a symptom, it is very common to start panicking. And then again, you go back to this chicken or the egg or is it the horse or the carriage in terms of I’m panicking, and now the panic has all these symptoms. Are these symptoms an actual medical condition or are they actually just anxiety and panic? You could spend a lot of time stuck in that cycle trying to figure that out.  Let’s now talk about how to manage these symptoms and some tips and tools that you can use.  Tip #1: No Googling Let me tell you what has recently happened to me. I’ve been having these symptoms. I made an appointment to see my cardiologist. It was two months out and I was like, “It’s not a big deal. I can handle these symptoms.” I’m feeling super confident about my ability now to just ride out some pretty uncomfortable sensations and not catastrophize. I go in for my checkup, they do an echocardiogram, and it’s taking a long time. She’s asking me these strange questions like, “Why are you here again,” as she’s doing it. She’s checking, she’s looking, she’s squinting at the screen. “Why are you here again? What are your symptoms?” Click, click, click, looking at the heart, whatever. Again, I’m in my mind going, “Kimberley, let your brain have whatever thoughts it wants. We’re not going to catastrophize.” I was doing really, really well. I got up and I answered her questions. I did the whole appointment. She cleaned me off when I was done and said, “Great, you’ve got 24 hours and then the doctor will email you with your results.” And then yesterday afternoon, I get a call from the nurse saying, “We need to book you a video appointment with the doctor to discuss your results.” As you can imagine, my brain went berserk. My health anxiety thoughts were saying, “This is really bad. Why would he need to make a video appointment? This can only end badly. This must be cancer. This must be heart problems. Am I going to have a heart attack and so forth?” Of course, my brain did that. I’m grateful my brain does that because that’s my brain being highly functioning and aware.  But the number one rule I made with myself in that exact moment, even though that was very anxiety-producing, is no Googling. Kimberley, you are not allowed to pick up the computer or the iPhone and Google anything about this. That is tip #1 for you. I’ll tell you why. A lot of my patients say, “But why? It’s no harm. I’m not doing any harm.” And I’ll say, “Yes.” I’ve actually just seen my cardiologist. But now that I’ve had my appointment, he encouraged me to do a little research. What was hilarious to me is every single website is different and some catastrophize and some don’t. Some go, “This could be very normal.” Other ones say, “This could be cancer, cancer, cancer, cancer.” This is why I’m telling my patients all the time, don’t Google because what you read is different. It’s not like this is going to be a factual thing. Most of the time people who have articles that rank high on Google searches are the ones who have optimized their website to be very easy to Google. The reason they have become number one on the Google algorithm is because they’ve included keywords like cancer for blah, blah, blah, and all of these health issues and health names. The ones that are at the top, some of them are very reasonable, helpful, and accurate, but a lot of them are not. They’ve just really done a great job of putting in lots and lots of keywords that makes them highly searchable and come up high on the algorithm. Please, number one, do not Google. Go to your doctor for questions if you have any. Unless they’ve encouraged you to do research, do not Google. TIP #2: FOLLOW IMPORTANT HEALTH ANXIETY CBT TECHNIQUES I’ve actually categorized this in a bigger category and I’ve called it important health anxiety CBT techniques, because there are some important CBT tools that you’re going to need here and here we go.  While I was in getting my echocardiogram, I was laying and I was having some anxiety because she was squinting and asking some strange questions, not in the normal of what I’d experienced. I could feel the pull to check her face for reassurance like, does she look concerned? Does she look relaxed? What’s going on with her? I wonder what she meant.  What I want to encourage you to do is acknowledge and catch when you’re checking their face to try to decipher what the nurse or the assistant or the doctor is doing and saying. Because really, all I’m doing there is mind reading because I have no idea what she’s thinking. I was laughing at myself because she was squinting and looking concerned. I was like, “I wonder if she’s trying not to pass gas.” We could mind read that she thinks I have cancer and that there’s a big problem, or maybe she’s just trying not to pass gas right now. Maybe she’s thinking about a fight she just had with her partner. My attempt to analyze her facial expression is a complete waste of my time. You could use that tip anytime you want.  The next tip for you is no reassurance seeking with nurses or doctors. Now, I actually felt almost into this trap. If I’m being completely honest, I did fall into this trap, but I caught myself really quickly. As she was finishing up, she took off her gloves and got ready to discharge me, and I said, “So, you’d let me know if there was...” I paused because what I was going to say is, “You’ll let me know if there’s something wrong, right?” I was going to say that. And then I was like, “No, no, no.” I stopped myself and said, “You know what? I know the deal. I’ve done these enough times. I know I have to wait for the doctor.” But I caught myself wanting to get confirmation from the nurse and I already know that nurses are not allowed to give me any diagnosis anyway. I caught myself wanting to get some expression of relief from her like, “No, you’re fine. Everything looks good,” or whatever. Sometimes they accidentally give you that reassurance. But I caught myself seeking reassurance from her.  In addition to that—let me talk to you a little later about how we do that with doctors as well—often if you’re in the office with a doctor, you may find yourself at the end of the session going, “I’ll be fine, right? It’s not bad, right?” It’s okay, we’re all going to ask some of those questions. I’m not going to be the reassurance-seeking police with you. But what I want you to do is really drop down into catching when we’re engaging in reassurance seeking and using it too much to reduce our own anxiety about it, to take away our own anxiety or fear. Now, another CBT technique or sort of rule that we often set in clinical work when I’m talking with my clients who have health anxiety is also not swaying the doctor or the nurse to answer things in the way that you want. A lot of people fall into this trap. For me, I just had my doctor’s appointment. We are working through and there are some little problems that we will work out. But I caught myself there wanting to sway him to be very positive. We had talked about it ultimately. He had said, “There are some issues. It could be this, it could be that, it could be this.” He listed off three or four options. Some were very, very small, and of course, the third one is always like, it could be cancer. They always say at the end, like whatever. When they give you these three or four or five options on what the problem might be, it’s very important that you be mindful and aware of how you’re trying to sway the doctor to give you certainty. This is what my doctor said, and I’m going to be brief. I’m not going to bore you with my medical stuff, but he’ll say, “It could be that you recently had COVID or an illness or a virus. It could also be this other condition, which is common, and if it’s so, we’ll treat that. It could also be that there could be some rheumatoid arthritis and that’s a longer treatment. And then the final thing, which we don’t think so, but it also could be cancer. “Let’s say he lists off these four options.  Now, this is very common. Doctors will do this often because their job is to educate us on all of the possibilities so that we can create a treatment plan that doesn’t ignore big issues, but we have to be careful that we don’t spend their time and our time going, “You think it’s the first one, right? It’s probably just the first one. I probably just had a virus, right?” I’m really swaying him towards giving an answer when he’s already told us that he or she doesn’t know yet. He’s already said, “I don’t know yet. We’re going to need to do extra tests.” Catch yourself trying to get them to reassure you and confirm that it’s definitely not the C word. The cancer word is what I’m saying there. Catch yourself when you’re doing those behaviors in the office with either the nurses or the technician or the doctors. Very, very important.  Now, one other thing I want you to also catch is if you’re coming to them with something, let’s say you are coming to them with a concern that you’ve pretty much know is your health anxiety, but you want reassurance that it’s not, also be careful that you don’t overly list things to convince them that something is wrong. A lot of you don’t do this, I know, but I have had a lot of clients who’ve come back to me after seeing the doctor and said, “Do you have any other symptoms,” and they would list even minor symptoms that they had a month ago that they knew had nothing to do with it. But they felt like if they didn’t say it all, if they didn’t include every symptom, every stomach ache, every headache, everything, they could miss something. So also keep an eye out for that. That’s some sort of overall general CBT techniques we use for health anxiety that help guide people into not engaging in those health anxiety compulsions. TIP #3: HEALTH ANXIETY HELP DURING YOUR DOCTOR’S VISIT This is a really important part of it. From the minute that I got the call from the nurse that he wanted a video call with me, my mind went to, again, the worst-case scenario. It just does. It just does. I think that that is actually really, really normal. I really do. I think that is what happens naturally for anybody. First of all, I don’t want to even go too over in terms of pathologizing that. I think that’s a normal thing for anybody to experience.  The first thing I want you to practice is validating your anxiety. It’s a part of self-compassion practice. It’s going, “It makes complete sense, Kimberley, that this is concerning you.” That’s one of the most important self-compassionate statements you could make for yourself. “It makes complete sense that this is hard, this is scary. Of course, it’s making you uncomfortable.” It’s validating.  You might even move to a common humanity, going, “Anybody in this situation would have anxiety.” Then you can also move into mindfulness skills, which is—this was one that I hold very true—just because I feel anxious doesn’t mean there’s danger or there’s a catastrophe. It’s my body’s natural response to create anxiety when it feels threatened. That keeps me alive. That’s a good thing. But just because I’m anxious and having thoughts about scary things doesn’t mean they’re facts. Remember, thoughts are not facts. The next thing here is also being able to just observe them, again, while you’re sitting in the waiting room. They were playing the movie, what’s it called? Moana. And I love Moana. I remember watching it as a child. I’m sitting in the seat and my mind is offering me all of these health anxiety intrusive thoughts, and my mind really wants me to pay attention to them.  A part of my mindfulness practice was to go, “I am noticing I’m having these catastrophic thoughts, but I’m also noticing Moana, and I’m going to choose which one I give my attention to.” I’m not going to push them away. I’m not going to make the thoughts go away because they’re naturally going to be there. I basically knew from yesterday afternoon until 9:00 AM this morning that the thoughts were going to be there and I accepted them there. I didn’t go in saying, “Oh gosh, I hope the next 24 hours aren’t filled with thoughts.” I was like, they’re going to be, “Hello thoughts, welcome. I know you’re going to be here,” and I’m going to train my brain to put attention on what matters to me. In this case, I’m not going to make these thoughts important. I’m going to watch Moana. I’m going to look at the colors, I’m going to listen to the sounds, I’m going to notice whatever it is that I notice. I’m going to notice the fabric of the seat underneath me as I’m waiting in the room. Last night as I went to bed, I’m just going to notice the feeling of the cushions underneath me. This is mindfulness and this is so important—being present and paying attention to what is currently happening instead of the worst-case scenario. There’s one important point here, which is my mind kept saying, “By nine o’clock tomorrow, your life might change.” You guys know what? If you’re listening, I’m guessing you know what that’s like. You’re like, “After this appointment, this appointment may change your life for the worse.” My job was to go, “Maybe, maybe not. It could be that he just wants to tell me everything’s okay.” It is what it is. It will be what it will be. I will work through it and solve it when it happens. I’m not going to live the next 24 hours or the next 12 hours coming from a place of the worst-case scenario until I have actual evidence of that. So we are not going to live your life as you wait for your appointment. We’re not going to live your life through the lens of the worst case. We’re going to live through it through being uncertain and accepting that in this moment, nothing is wrong. Until we know, we don’t know.  MEDITATION FOR HEALTH ANXIETY Now, other options for you, I’m just going to add a couple here, is I have found meditation for health anxiety to be very, very helpful, particularly when health anxiety is taking over. That has been very beneficial for me—to find a meditation that can actually sometimes give me some concrete skills to use in the moment to stay present. We are not going towards staying calm because maybe you’re going to have some anxiety. That’s okay. Really what we want to do is we want to be working in the most skillful fashion as we can.  And then the last one, this one’s a little controversial. Some people don’t agree with this piece of advice, so take what you need and leave what doesn’t help. But for me, when I’m anxious, I tend to shallow breathe a lot. I hold my breath a lot. For me, it was just reminding myself just to breathe. Not breathe in any particular fashion or deep breathing, but just be like, “Take a breath, Kimberley, when you need. Take a breath when you need.” TIP #4: WHAT TO DO WHEN HEALTH ANXIETY TAKES OVER? Tip #4 is what to do when anxiety takes over in the biggest way, and that ultimately means, what can you do when your brain is setting on the full alarm. Now in this case, I’m just going to say it’s basically what to do if you’re panicking and the advice goes the same as it is whether there’s a health anxiety panic attack or a regular non-health anxiety panic attack, which is do not try to push the anxiety away. Let’s break it down. If you’re having anxiety, and you are saying, “This is bad, I don’t want it, it shouldn’t be here,” you’re actually telling your brain that the anxiety is dangerous. Not just the health issue, but also the presence of anxiety is dangerous, which means it’s going to pump out more and more anxiety because you’ve told it that anxiety is dangerous. Your job here is to let the anxiety be there. Try not to push it away. What we know is what you try to push away comes stronger.  You can talk to your anxiety. There’s actually research to show that when you talk to your anxiety and you talk to yourself in the third person, it can actually empower you and feel more of a sense of empowerment and mastery over that experience. For me, unfortunately, I’ve had quite the 24 hours. We actually had a very large earthquake last night here in southern California, which woke me up, so I had some anxiety related to that. And then of course, my brain was like, “Oh yeah, and by the way, you might have cancer. Ha-ha-ha!” You know what I mean? Of course, your brain’s going to tell you that.  In that moment, I used the skill and the research around talking to myself in the third person. I said, “Kimberley, there’s nothing you can do right now. It makes total sense that you have anxiety. Let’s not push it away. Let’s bring your attention to what you can control, which is how kind you are to yourself, whether you’re clenching your body up, whether you’re breathing, whether what you’re putting your attention on. You can’t control anything. You can’t control this earthquake. You can’t control what’s happening tomorrow. All you can do is be here now.” Using a third person, using your name as the third person like, “Kimberley...” and saying what you need to do. Coaching yourself has been incredibly helpful for me and I know for a lot of people because that’s actually science-based.  TIP #5: ENGAGE IN VALUE-BASED BEHAVIORS The next thing I want you to do, and this is the final one before we go through some questions that I want you to ask yourself, is to engage in value-based behaviors. Now what that means is when we’re anxious, when we have health anxiety, it’s very normal for us to want to engage in safety behaviors. One for me was every morning, I drop my daughter off and my husband drops my son off at school and I could feel my anxiety wanting to stay home. I don’t want to go out. And so I almost was starting to say, “Maybe I’ll ask my husband to drop off my daughter and my son so I can stay home.” I recognize that would be me doing a fear-based behavior. I would be doing that only because I don’t want to face fear today. I just want to make it small.  Number one, it’s okay. If you need to do that, that’s totally okay. But for me personally, I caught myself and I said, “No, you value being someone who drops off your daughter and shows up and doesn’t let anxiety win. You love dropping off your daughter. If you stayed home, you’d only be doing the dishes, circling around, maybe catastrophizing, just trying to get past time. You love taking your daughter to drop off.” And so engage in that.  Another value-based behavior for me personally is humor. I’m texting friends and I’m telling them jokes about what I’m going to do to my doctor if he says something wrong or something, or I’m making jokes about some of the questions and statements that the nurses made. I’m making jokes about it, not to catastrophize, not to put them down, not to minimize my own discomfort, but humor is a very big part of my values. I’m making jokes about what we’ll do if it’s cancer and will you come to my funeral and silly things. Again, I really want to make sure you understand, I’m not doing that as depressed bad things are going to happen. I’m doing it because I’m literally saying, it will be what it will be. Let’s just move forward and let’s actually bring some light and joy and some laughter to this.  Now you might not like that. If that’s not your values, don’t do it, but identify, what would the non-anxious me do right now? What would I do if this fear wasn’t here? And then do those behaviors. It’s really, really important that you make sure you hit this in as many ways as you can because fear can cause us just to clam up and sit still and ruminate. It’s very important that you practice not just ruminating and cycling and going over and over and over and over all of the worst-case scenarios because your brain will take you to some very dark places. HEALTH ANXIETY JOURNAL PROMPTS This is really important. I know I’ve given you the top five, but that’s more like 20 points. Let’s talk about some hypochondria or health anxiety journal prompts or questions you can ask yourself to stay as skilled as you can.  What is in my control right now?  What is in my control? My behaviors, my reactions. That’s ultimately what is in your control. What’s not in your control is how much anxiety you have and what thoughts you have about them.  What is not in my control?  You can be very specific here. In my case, it’s like, what’s not in my control is what the doctor says. What’s not in my control is what my health condition is. What’s not in my control is when he calls. You know what I mean? What’s not in my control is the treatment plan. I’m going to have to wait for him to do that. I’m identifying what is in my control and what is not.  How am I going to gain a sense of control that is helpful to both my long-term health anxiety recovery goals and my health anxiety treatment plan?  For me, I know that Googling is going to be a full sense of control and doesn’t help my long-term recovery, so I’m not going to do it. I know that me ruminating and doing tons of mental compulsions is going to give me a sense of control, but it’s not helpful. It’s not helpful. It doesn’t help my long-term recovery, it doesn’t help my long-term mental health, so I’m not going to do it.  What will help my long-time health anxiety goals, it’s going to be all the tips that we covered today—no Googling, no checking faces, no reassurance seeking, no swaying the doctor, practicing my mindfulness, being as compassionate as I can, maybe taking some breaths. All of those are going to make me stronger in my health anxiety recovery instead of weaker the ones which would be ruminating and doing all of these. Not very helpful safety behaviors.  How willing am I to be uncertain right now?  You guys are going to have to tolerate a lot of uncertainty. That’s what this is all about. From the minute I got the call from that nurse saying that I needed to have this video appointment, from the minute he got onto the video appointment, all I had to focus on is, am I willing to be uncomfortable? Am I willing to be uncertain? Because the only reason I would’ve Googled was because I wanted certainty. Really, really important.  What would the non-anxious me do right now?  She’d get up and she’d go and drop her daughter off, and then she’d call your friend because that’s what you do every Wednesday morning. She’d respond to emails, she’d call. Do whatever it is that you’re doing. What would the non-anxious you do? How can I be kind and gentle towards myself as I navigate this experience?  Another code question for that is, what do I need right now that is skillful? What do you need? The most beautiful thing about this is my husband. He is the most gorgeous man. He sits down. He doesn’t reassure me, he just says, “I got you.” If your partner is giving you a lot of reassurance, you might want to mention to them, “That actually doesn’t help my long-term health anxiety. I just need you to be next to me and support me.” And so it’s very important that we make sure our partners aren’t giving us a whole bunch of reassurance and a whole bunch of certainty-seeking behaviors that keep us stuck.  That’s it guys. There are my five tips for health anxiety which turned out to be more like 20, I know, but I try to always overdeliver. I really wanted to jam in as many skills as I could. I hope you have a wonderful day. Please do not worry about me. I am actually fine. There’s a joke between my best friend and I. We say, “Are you fine number one or fine number two?” Fine number one is you actually are fine and fine number two is you’re not fine, but you’re saying you are, and I am fine number one. I actually have a lot of faith in my doctors. I have a lot of faith in my ability to handle these things and these are just another bump on the road in terms of being someone who has postural orthostatic tachycardic syndrome. So all is well. All is well. I am fine number one and I hope you are fine number one as well.  I am sending you so much love. Do not forget, it is a beautiful day to do all the hard things, and I’ll see you next week.

Today, we’re talking about the Top 5 Relationship Rules I have that have changed my life. This episode was inspired by a letter I wrote to all of you. For those of you who signed up for my newsletter, I give you tools and tips, and stories, and I tell you funny jokes sometimes. But I was writing the newsletter while I was in Australia just before I left when I was there in December, and I was reflecting on how beautiful my relationships are with my family now. And I was reflecting on why. Why are they so beautiful? Well, number one, they’re beautiful people. But number two, more importantly, I have learned these relationship rules, which have allowed me to have the most beautiful relationship with my family and the most beautiful relationship with my husband, my kids, my friends, and you guys. Now, that doesn’t mean there are no bumps. That doesn’t mean there are no arguments. A few weeks ago, I wrote in the newsletter about how I had an argument with my husband. Of course, I was joking about how wrong he was and how right I was. But it doesn’t mean we don’t have conflict, but we get to coexist because of these relationship rules, and I want to share them with you.  Before we proceed, I want to say, these mightn’t work for you. I think they work well, but I don’t want you to feel guilty, ashamed, embarrassed, angry, or whatever the feelings are if you feel like these don’t match you. So take what you need here. Leave what isn’t helpful for you; if it’s useful for you, wonderful. If it doesn’t sit right, one of them doesn’t sit right, that is not a problem. It’s totally okay to use what helps you. When I’m talking on this podcast, I’m giving you ideas, so be curious and consider them, but it doesn’t mean that I’m always right, I think I’m right, or I know what’s right for you.  All right, here we go. I’m going to go through them quickly and then elaborate a little later once we get through, okay? But I want to remind you that these relationship rules help me stay solid in my relationships, and they’ve gotten me through some of the hardest periods and seasons of my life. So, let’s see if they’re helpful for you.  1. It is not your job or my job to manage our family’s emotions.  Their emotions are their responsibility, and it is their job to regulate their emotions when they’re upset with us. And it’s our job to regulate and manage our emotions when we are upset. Now, what does regulate mean? It means you’re allowed to have them. We’re not saying that no one’s allowed to be upset, but we have to communicate and share with them and regulate by not throwing things, lashing out, saying unkind things, saying things that aren’t true, saying ‘you’ statements like, “You’re so blah, blah, blah.” We want to use ‘I’ statements like, “I feel this way about that,” or “I would like this thing to happen.” So, we want to regulate as best as we can. Our job is to regulate what shows up for us, and their job is to regulate what shows up for them.  2. It is not your job to please the people you are in relationship with. Now, they get to have expectations and they get to communicate with you on what their expectations are, and you get to have expectations and you get to communicate their expectations. Now, this is so important, then we can have a respectful conversation. A lot of the time these days, I see people in relationships or even online where somebody disagrees and they’re so hurt. They’re like, “You’ve harmed me by saying that. I’m so hurt by what you said.” But the person gets to have their thoughts and their feelings. It’s not our job to manage it, and it’s not our job to please them either. So you get to have your beliefs and thoughts and ideas, and you get to disagree with other people as well. It’s as long as we’re able to do it respectfully. And when I say respectful, I’m not saying it in a people-pleasing way either. It is not our job to please people. It’s just not.  Here’s a deeper one. Let me just jump into this a little: I’m still working on this and I get therapy. I have a lot of practice and I’ve read about the idea of my happiness. That’s my job. My happiness is my job. And I easily get caught up in, “No, if my partner would just do A, B, and C, then I can be happy,” or “If my kids just do A, B, and C, then I can be happy.” And that is true to a degree. But the problem with that rule, if you want to keep that rule, is you have no empowerment and no responsibility. It’s all up to them. Your life is in their hands. Your happiness is in their hands.  And so, I like to think about, yeah, people can’t always please me, like I just said, and people are going to upset me. And then it’s my job to decide what I want to do with that, and it’s my job to determine how I’m going to cope today with the fact that they may not be living up to the way I want them to. So that’s really important.  3. They are allowed to have their feelings about our choices.  This is a big one for my husband and I. We say this to each other all the time. It’s like, “You’re allowed to have your feelings about that and so am I.” This one is so hard for me, especially in my marriage because if I upset him, I’d be like, “You shouldn’t be upset.” And he’s like, “I’m allowed to be upset. I’m allowed to have my feelings about it.” And I’m like, “No, but you shouldn’t.” And he’s like, “Yeah, but I am. I do.” It is okay if they don’t like everything about us and if they disagree. It is our job to live according to our values, which doesn’t always align with their expectations of us. Our job is to go and live our lives and let them have their feelings about it. Then, we can communicate respectfully about our misalignment. “But that has been so beautiful for me.” To say, “You’re allowed to have your feelings about me, specifically me as a public person.” When I used to speak at a conference, or online or on Instagram, and someone would say something negative, I used to be like, “Oh, how dare they say something so mean? How could they disagree with me or not like me?” It was so painful because I had made this rule that they should only have good feelings about me.  And now I’m okay. You can have all your feelings about me. You might like me, or you might hate me. You might like me one day and not like me the next. You might agree or not agree, and you get to have your feelings about me. I give you permission. It is so freeing to say, “I’m going to let everyone have permission to have their feelings about me.” That’s okay. I’m not for everyone. That sentence literally has healed me on the deepest level, probably more than any sentence. You’re allowed to have your feelings about me. So important. 4. It is okay if they struggle to understand us.  In fact, I encourage you to accept that they will not always understand us. Sometimes people won’t have the capacity to understand us, and that doesn’t make us wrong. And it also doesn’t mean that you won’t be able to find a way to coexist and still love each other unconditionally. That’s so true.  I always tell my patients, let’s say I come in and I’m wearing my favorite boots, which are a bit sassy, and you come in, and you’re like, “I hate your boots. They’re the ugliest boots ever.” I could even say, “Ah, you’re supposed to love my boots.” Or I could say, “That’s cool. You don’t have to love my boots. You get to have your feelings about them. And it’s okay if you don’t understand how rocking my boots are.”  Now, this also goes for who you are. They get to have their feelings about who you are. They get to not like who we are, as long as they’re respectful, they don’t cross any boundaries, and they’re not abusive. They get to be upset, and it’s okay that they don’t understand us. As I said, some people can’t understand us. So important. 5. You get to (and they get to) change their mind or change, period.  Again, this one was so hard for me. Now, for those of you who don’t know me, I’ve been married almost 20 years. It will be 20 years this year, which means my husband’s done a ton of changing, and so have my family, my friends, and so have you guys. There’s a lot of change. But they get to change. If somebody changes, we can’t go, “Wait, that’s not fair. I didn’t go into this relationship with you being this new version of you. You have to be the old version of you.” That’s not a real relationship. That’s saying you must stay the same and can’t express and be who you are.  We could say, “You’ve changed, and these are my feelings about it,” as long as I’m doing it, not in a judgmental way or not in a way that’s trying to change them back because people get to change. They get to change their mind. So that’s another big one for me, is if someone says, “I like this,” and then they come back and say, “I actually really don’t,” I have to remind myself they’re allowed to change their mind because they’re allowed to have their feelings. And it’s okay that they don’t understand us, and they’re going to manage their own emotions, and I’m going to manage mine.  We can’t hold ourselves to the expectation that will never change. As we go through different seasons in our life, we will change. And that might feel scary. But we can try using our mindfulness skills and our regulation skills to navigate the change and the emotions you have to feel.  So those are the five relationship rules that have changed my life. Now, here’s the kicker. None of it is fun. None of it. This is some hard work. I nearly said that S word, which is fine. I’m allowed to swear, but it’s some hard shit. This is some terrible stuff to work through, but with it comes stronger and more unconditionally loving relationships.  When I gave my husband permission to have his feelings about me, he was happier, and he loved me more because it meant that he didn’t have to pretend to be somebody else or he didn’t have to pretend to like something and get resentful because he actually didn’t like it. When I allowed myself to be different from my family, and I accepted that they might have feelings about that, and I gave them permission to have feelings about that, there wasn’t a problem anymore.  The biggest problem, the biggest pain, the most suffering came when I was like, “No, they shouldn’t feel this way about me. That’s not fair”! But, it is fair. They get to have their feelings based on their own personal and their upbringing and their own incapacities and their own limitations. They get to have their feelings. It mightn’t be perfect, but I’m not perfect.  You guys, I could add a fifth or sixth one here. I didn’t write this one in the email, but  I’m not perfect, and neither are they, and that’s okay. Sometimes I would say, “No, but they need to be this way because that’s the right way. This is the right way to be.” And I get it. Yeah, there is sometimes real right and wrong, like you shouldn’t harm people or say horrible things or critical things or racist things or misogynist things. We get that, and I agree with all that. But at the end of the day, the people in our lives will be imperfect, and we have to get better about not being black and white and cutting them off because they did a “bad” thing.  I think cancel culture has taught us a lot in this idea of like, “You’re dead to me. You’re done. You’re canceled.”  Relationships don’t work like that. We’re human beings. We make mistakes. I’ve made a million mistakes. I’ve actually-- okay, now I’m going on and on. But we also have to learn to accept that we make mistakes and be willing to apologize for it. It’s a humble thing to do. It’s not fun, not fun at all, but we can also say we’re sorry too.  So that’s it, you guys. There’s a humbling; there’s a humanity that we connect with when we can allow everyone to have their feelings, when we can allow ourselves to have our feelings when we can have limits and boundaries and clearly communicate that with our loved ones, but then also understand that sometimes they may not get it.  Now there will be situations if you say, “I don’t like that,” and they will not respect you. You may need to make a limit and a boundary with them where they don’t have as much access to you. That’s 100% valid. And again, I’m not here telling you to accept other people’s bad behavior. Absolutely not. But we can accept that they have some feelings about it, as long as they’re communicating respectfully, kindly, compassionately, or at least they’re trying. At least they’re trying.  So that’s it, folks. The five relationship rules that have literally changed my life and my relationships. I hope it’s helpful. It is a beautiful day to do hard things, and I will see you next week.

One of the most common questions I get asked is what do I do during or after an exposure?  Number One, it’s so scary to do an exposure, and number two, there’s so many things that people have brought up as things to do, even me, this being Your Anxiety Toolkit. Maybe you get overwhelmed with the opportunity and options for tools that it gets too complicated. So, I want to make this super easy for you, and I want to go through step by step, like what you’re supposed to do during or after an exposure. Now, I think it’s important that we first look at, there is no right. You get to choose, and I’m going to say that all the way through here, but I’m going to give you some really definitive goals to be going forward with as you do an exposure, as you face your fear. Now, make sure you stick around to the end because I will also address some of the biggest roadblocks I hear people have with the skills that I’m going to share.  Now, a lot of you know, I have ERP School if you have OCD and I have Overcoming Anxiety and Panic if you have panic, and I have BFRB School if you have hair pulling and skin picking. These are all basically courses of me teaching you exactly what I teach my patients. So, if you want a deeper in-depth study of that, you can, by all means, get the steps there of how to build an exposure plan, how to build a response prevention plan. Today, I’m going to complement that work and talk about what to do during and after an exposure. So here we go.  Let’s say you already know what you’re going to face. Like I said, you’ve already created an exposure plan. You understand the cycle of the disorder or the struggle that you are handling, and you’ve really identified how you’re going to break that cycle and you’ve identified the fear that you’re going to face. Or just by the fact of nature being the nature, you’ve been spontaneously exposed to your fear. What do you do? Now, let’s recap the core concepts that we talk about here all the time on Your Anxiety Toolkit, which is, number one, what we want to do is practice tolerating whatever discomfort you experience. What does that mean? It means being open and compassionate and vulnerable as you experience discomfort in your body. A lot of people will say, “But what am I supposed to do?” And this is where I’m going to say, this is very similar to me trying to teach you how to ride a bike on this podcast. Or I’ll tell you a story. My 11-year-old daughter was sassing me the other day and I was telling her I wanted her to unpack the dishwasher, and she said, “How?” She was just giving me sass, joking with me. And I was saying to her, “Well, you raise your hand up and you open your fist and you put your hand over the top of the dishwasher and you pull with your muscles down towards your--” I’m trying giving her like silly-- we’re joking with each other, like step by step. Now, it’s very hard to learn how to do that by just words. Usually—let’s go back to the bike example—you have to get on the bike and feel the sensation of falling to know what to do to counter the fall as you start to lean to the left or lean to the right. And so, when it comes to willingly tolerating your discomfort, it actually just requires you practicing it, and if I’m going to be quite honest with you, sucking at it, because you will suck at it. We all suck at being uncomfortable. But then working at knowing how to counter that discomfort. Again, you’re on the bike, you’re starting to feel yourself move to the right and learning to lean to the left a little to balance it out. And that’s what learning how to be uncomfortable is about too. It’s having the discomfort, noticing in your body it’s tightening, and learning to do the opposite of that tightening. It is very similar to learning how to ride a bike. And it’s very similar in that it’s not just a cognitive behavior, it’s a physical thing. It’s noticing, “Oh, I’m tight.” For me, as I get anxious, I always bring my shoulders up and it’s learning to counter that by dropping them down. So, it’s tolerating discomfort.  Now, often beyond that-- I’m going to give you some more strategy here in a second. But beyond that, it’s actually quite simple in that you go and do whatever it is that you would be doing if you hadn’t faced this hard thing.  Here is an example. The other week during the holidays, one of my family members-- I’ll tell you the story. My mom and dad took a trip to Antarctica. This is a dream trip for them. They’re very well-traveled and they were going through what’s called the Drake Passage, which is this very scary passage of water. It took them 36 hours to sail through it and it can be very dangerous. And I noticed that the anxiety I was feeling in my body about the uncertainty of where they are and how far they’ve got to go and are they safe and all these things is I was sitting on the couch and I wasn’t engaging in anything. My kids were trying to talk to me and I was blowing them off. And I was scrolling on my phone instead of doing the things I needed to do. I was stuck and I was holding myself in this stuckness because I didn’t want to let go of the fear, but I did want to let go of the fear. It was this really weird thing where I was just stuck in a sense of freeze mode. And I had to remind myself, “Kimberley, they’re sailing through the Drake Passage. There’s nothing you can do. Go and live your life. Holding yourself on this couch is not going to change any outcome. You thinking about it is not going to change any outcome. Just go ahead with your life.” And so, what I want to offer to you is—I’ve said this to my patients as well when they say, “What am I supposed to do now? I’ve done the exposure. What am I supposed to do?”—I say, do nothing at all. Just go about your day. What would you do if anxiety wasn’t here? What would you be doing if you didn’t do this exposure? What would the non-anxious you go and do? And as you do that-- so let’s say you’re like, “Well, I need to do the dishes or I need to unpack the dishwasher,” as you do that, you will notice discomfort rise and fall. And just like riding a bike, you are going to practice not contracting to it. Just like if you were riding a bike and you started to lean to the right, you would be practicing gently leading to the left. And if you go too far to the left, you would practice gently leading to the right. And that’s the work of being uncomfortable. Now, you’re not here to make the discomfort go away. You’re here to practice willingly allowing it and not tensing up against it while you go and live your life. And I literally could leave the podcast there. I could sign off right now and be like, “That’s all I need you to know,” because that is all I need you to know, is practice not contracting. Meaning not tensing your muscles, not trying to think it away, fight it away, push it away. What you’re really doing is allowing there to be uncertainty in your life or discomfort or anxiety in your life and just go and do what you love to do.  To be honest, the biggest finger, like the bird, I don’t know what you call it. Like the biggest in-your-face to anxiety, whatever anxiety you’re suffering, is to go and live your life. And so, I could leave it at that, but because I want to be as thorough as I can, I want to just check in here with a couple of things that you need to know. Often when, and we go through this extensively in ERP School and in Overcoming Anxiety and Panic, is when you are uncomfortable, there are a set of general behaviors that humans engage in that you need to get good at recognizing and create a plan for. And these are the things we usually do to make our discomfort go away. So, the first one is a physical compulsion. “I’m uncomfortable. How can I get it to go away? I’ll engage in a behavior.”  So, remember here that exposures are really only as good as the response prevention. Now for those of you who don’t know what response prevention is, it’s ultimately not doing a behavior to reduce or remove the discomfort you feel that’s resulted from the exposure. So, you do an exposure, you’re uncomfortable, what behaviors would you usually do to make that discomfort go away? Response prevention is not doing those behaviors.  So, the first one is physical compulsions. So, if you notice that you’re doing these physical repetitive behaviors, chances are, you’re doing a compulsion of what we call a safety behavior and you’re doing them to make the discomfort go away. So, we want to catch and be aware of those.  We also want to be aware of avoidance. Often people will say, “Okay, I faced the scary thing, but I don’t want to make it any worse so I’m going to avoid these other things until this discomfort goes away.” Now, first of all, I’m going to say, good job. That’s a really good start. But we want to work at not doing that avoidant behavior during or after the exposure as well. In addition, we want to work at not doing reassurance-seeking behaviors during or after an exposure.  So, an example that that might be, let’s say you’re facing your fear of going to the doctor. But as you’re facing your fear of going to the doctor, you’re sitting there going through WebMD or any other health Google search engine and you’re trying to take away your discomfort by searching and researching and getting reassurance or texting a friend going, “Are you sure I’m going to be okay? Are you sure bad things aren’t going to happen?” Now, one of the things that are the most hardest to stop when you’ve done an exposure or during an exposure is mental compulsions. So, I want to slow down here for you and I want to say, this is a work in progress. We’re going to take any win that we can and celebrate it, but also acknowledge that we can slowly work to reduce these mental compulsions. Now a mental compulsion is rumination, problem-solving, thinking, thinking, thinking. Like I said to you, when I was on the couch, I was just sitting there going over all the scenarios going, “I wonder if they’re going up or down or what they’re doing. And I hope they’re avoiding the big waves and I hope they’re not stuck and I hope they’re not scared and I hope they’re okay.” All the things. All that I hope they are was me doing mental compulsions.  And so, you won’t be able to prevent these all the time. But for me, it was observing again, when I’m contracting. The contraction in this case was mental rumination. And then again, just like a bike, noticing, I’m focusing in, very, very zoomed in on this one thing. How can I zoom out, just like it would be leaning from left to right if I was riding a bike—zoom out into what’s actually happening, which is my son’s right in front of me asking me to play Minecraft or play Pokemon or whatever it is that he was asking, and the dishes need doing. And I would really love to read some poetry right now because that’s what I love to do.  So, it’s catching that and being aware of that. And again, it’s not something I can teach you, it’s something you have to practice and learn for yourself in that awareness of, “Ooh, I’m contracting. Ooh, I’m zooming in. I need to zoom out and look at the big picture here. I need to look at what my values are, engage in what I want to be doing right now.” The last way that we contract is self-punishment. We start to just beat ourselves up. So, you did the exposure, you’re feeling uncertain, you might be feeling other emotions like guilt and shame and embarrassment and all the emotions. And so, in effort to avoid that, we just beat ourselves up.  I have a client who does amazing exposures, but once they’ve done the exposure, they beat themselves up for not having done the exposure earlier. It’s like, ouch. Wow. So, you’re doing this amazing thing, facing this amazing fear, practicing not contracting, doing actually a pretty good job, but then engaging in punishing themselves. “Why didn’t I do this earlier? I should have done this years ago. I could have saved myself so much suffering. I could have recovered earlier. I could have gotten to college earlier. I could have succeeded more.” Again, that’s a contraction that we do during exposure to fight or react to the fact that you have discomfort in your body.  And what I really want to offer you, again, let’s go back to basics—this is just about you learning to be a safe place while you have discomfort. So, you’re having discomfort, you’re riding the bike. Please don’t just use this podcast as a way to fill your brain with all the tools and not implement it. I will not be able to teach you to metaphorically ride a bike until you put your little tush on the bike seat and you give it a go and you fail a bunch of times.  And so again, this is you learning to sit on the bike metaphorically, doing an exposure, noticing you’re falling to the right and learning to be aware of that and learning what the skill you need to use in that moment and then learn how to adjust in that moment. And that’s the work. That’s the work—gently, kindly, compassionately, tending to what shows up to you as if you really matter because you really, really matter.  Let me say that again. You’re going to tend to yourself. I’m saying it twice because I need you to hear me. You’re going to tend to yourself compassionately because you matter. This matters. You are doing some pretty brave things. Right now, I’m wearing my “It’s a beautiful day to do hard thing” t-shirt. It’s what I wear every Wednesday because it’s my favorite day to record podcasts and to do this with you. So yeah, that’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to sit together, we’re going to do the hard thing, we’re going to do it kindly.  But again, let me come back to the real simplicity of this, is just go do you and let it be imperfect. Exposures are not going to be perfect. You’re not going to do them perfect. Just like if I learn to ride a bike for the first time, probably going to crash, but the crashes will teach me what to do next time I’m almost about to crash. Now, as I promised you, there are some common roadblocks, I would say, that get in the way and they usually are thoughts. Now if you have OCD, we go through this extensively in ERP School because it does tend to show up there the most, but it does show up with panic as well a lot, is there are roadblocks or thoughts that pull us back into contraction because when we think them, we think they’re real. An example would be, what if I lose control and go crazy? That’s a really common one. A lot of times, that thought alone can make us go, “Nope, I refuse to tolerate that risk,” and we contract, and we end up doing compulsions. And the compulsion or the safety behavior takes away the benefit of that initial exposure.  Another one is, what if I push myself too hard, like have a heart attack or my body can’t take it and I implode? As ridiculous as it sounds, I can’t tell you how many of my patients and clients in the 10-plus years I’ve been practicing—way more, close to 15 years—I’ve been practicing as a therapist, clients have said, “I’ve completely ejected from the exposure because of the fear I will implode,” even though they know that that’s, as far as we know, not possible. Again, I’ve never heard of it before, I’ve never seen it before, except on cartoons.  So, again, it’s being able to identify, I call them roadblocks, but there are things that come up that make us eject out of the exposure like you’re in Top Gun. I loved that movie, by the way. But that whole idea of like, you pull a little lever and you just boom, eject out of the exposure like you’re ejecting out of an airplane or a flight, fast jet, because of a thought they had. And so, your job, if you can, again, is to be aware of how you contract around thoughts that are catastrophic. A lot of people, depending on the content of their obsessions, every little subtype of anxiety, every different disorder have their own little content that keep us stuck. Your job is to get really good at being aware of, specifically, I call them allowing thoughts. They’re thoughts that we have that give us permission to do, to pull the eject handle. I call them allowing thoughts. So, it might be, “No, you’ve done enough. You probably will lose control if you do that. So, you can do the safety behavior or the compulsion.” That’s an allowing thought. Your job is to get used to yours and know yours and be familiar with them so that you can learn to, again, have good skills at countering that and responding. Again, think of the bike. That allowing thought is you tilting to the right a little bit when you’re like, “Oops, nope, I’m going to fall if I keep tilting. I’m going to have to work at going against that common behavior I use that is continually contracting against tolerating discomfort.”  Other bigger roadblocks are fear of panic, which is a common one. Again, mostly, people’s thoughts around “I can’t handle this.” You’re going to have specific ones. Again, I don’t want to put everyone in the same category. Everyone’s going to have different ones. But please get used to your roadblocks or become aware of them, okay?  And that’s it, you guys. I feel silly saying it, but that is it. Your job is to lean in.  One other thing I would say, and I often give my patients the option, is I’ll say to them, “Here are your choices. You’ve done an exposure. You ultimately have three choices.”  So, let’s pretend—we’ll do a role-play—we’re in the room together or we’re on Zoom, and the client has willingly done the exposure and then they start to freak out, let’s say, in one specific situation. And I’ll say, okay, you got three choices. You could go and do a compulsion and get rid of it. Go and make this discomfort go away if that’s in fact possible for you. The other option is you could practice this response prevention and practice not contracting. That’s another option for you. You get to choose. And there is this very sneaky third option, and I will offer this to you as well. The third option is, you could go and make it worse. And I have hats off to you if you want to choose that option. So, the go and make it worse would be to find something else to expose yourself to in that moment. Make it worse. Bring it on. How can we have more? What thoughts can I have that would make this even more scary? How could I do flooding? How could I find ways to literally say to your fear, “Come on fear, let’s do this. I have so much more fear facing to do and I am not afraid and I’m going to do it.”  So you have three options. Please be compassionate about all three because you may find that you’re choosing the first or the second or the third depending on the day, but they’re yours to choose. There is no right. There is more ideal and effective. Of course, the latter two options are the most effective options. But again, when we learn to ride a bike, no one does it perfectly. We fall a lot. Sometimes if you’ve ridden a bike for a very long time and you are a skilled bike rider-- in fact, we have evidence that even bike riders who do the Tour de France still fall off their bike sometimes for ridiculous reasons, and we are going to offer them compassion. And if you are one of those who are skilled at this, but fall off your bike sometimes, that’s not because anything’s wrong with you. That’s because you’re a human being. Okay?  So that is what I’m going to offer you. The question, what do I do after and during I’ve done an exposure, is be aware of your contractions in whatever form they may be. Be kind. And if all else fails, just go and live your life. Go and do the thing you would do if you hadn’t have that, didn’t have that fear. It doesn’t matter if you’re shaking, doesn’t matter if you’re panicking, doesn’t matter if you’re having tightness of breath, you’re dizzy, all the things. Be gentle, be kind, keep going. Do what you can in that moment, and you get to choose. You get to choose.  So, that is what I want you to hear from me today. I hope it has been helpful. I feel so good about making an episode just about this. Number one, I get asked a lot, so I really want to have a place to send them. And number two, I admit to making the mistake of sometimes saying go do an exposure and not actually dropping down into these very common questions that people have.  For those of you who are interested, we do have ERP School, Overcoming Anxiety and Panic, BFRB School. We’ve got time management courses, all kinds of courses that you can get. The link will be in the show notes. I do encourage you to go check them out if you’re wanting step by step structural trainings to help you put together a plan. If you’ve got a therapist already or you’re just doing this on your own, that’s fine too. Hopefully, this will help lead you in the direction that’s right for you.  All right. You know I’m going to say it. It’s a beautiful day to do hard things. And so, I hope that’s what you’re doing. I am sending you so much love and so much well wishes and loving-kindness. Have a wonderful day and I’ll see you next week with a very exciting piece of news.

MINDFULLY TENDING TO ANGER & RESENTMENT Welcome back. I am so happy to have you here with me today to talk about mindfully tending to feelings of anger and resentment.  Sometimes when we have relentless anxiety and intrusive thoughts, anger can feel like the only emotion we can access.   For those of you who don’t know me, well, you might be surprised to hear maybe not to know that I actually have quite a hot temper. I get hot really quick emotionally, and I don’t know if it’s because as a child I didn’t really allow myself to feel anger. I think societally, I was told I shouldn’t be angry. And so, when it comes up inside me, it heats up really quick to a boiling point. And my goal for this year is not—let me be very clear—is not to say I am going to stop being angry because that is actually the problem. It is not to say I can’t feel angry and I shouldn’t feel angry. It’s actually to tend to my anger and start to listen to what anger is trying to communicate to me. My goal with you today is to walk you through how you can do that. And I’d love if you would stay with me for a short meditation where we mindfully tend to anger and resentment.  IS ANGER & RESENTMENT HEALTHY? I think the first thing I want to mention here is that anger and resentment are actually really normal healthy emotions. Nothing to be guilty of, ashamed of, annoyed by, nothing to judge, that the anger and resentment are actually healthy emotions. They come from a place of wishing things could be better or improved, and they usually show up when we experience some kind of injustice in the world or in our daily life. Maybe someone hurt your feelings or they acted in a way that made you feel unsafe. Maybe someone stopped you from succeeding. Maybe somebody judged you and you experienced that as a threat. WHY DO I FEEL SO ANGRY?  Anger can show up for many reasons. Maybe it’s because you’re noticing the injustices in the world and that makes you angry. That political things can really make people show up in anger. And again, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong, but expressing it in a healthy way can be really useful because bottling it up, it usually numbs other feelings, it can wear down your mental health, and it can mean—and I have learnt this the hard way—is that we then explode and end up saying things we don’t mean, or doing things we don’t want to do that don’t align up with our values or showing up the way that we want. And for me, that’s a big part of my goal this year.  Now, the reason I actually am doing this, this is not a scheduled podcast, is yesterday my husband and I were having a disagreement. And sometimes I have to remind myself like, disagreements aren’t a problem. Because in my mind, disagreement is like, “Oh my gosh, terrible things are about to happen and I’m very scared. Please love me forever.” You know what I mean? And my husband has to keep gently saying like it’s okay that we don’t agree on everything.  We were having a disagreement and I could feel the anger showing up in my body. And I was trying to really focus on just being mindful of that experience, because when I don’t do that, my immediate response is, “Fight. Let’s go to war. Let me show you how you are wrong. Let me be very clear in my boundary that you cannot cross,” which is all fine. Again, none of that’s wrong, but I could feel myself heating to a boiling point in a very, very short amount of time. I’ve been really trying to instead of acting on anger in certain situations-- again, there’s nothing wrong if you need to act on anger. WHEN IS ANGER APPROPRIATE?  Sometimes if you’re in a dangerous position, you need to act on anger. But I’m really working on allowing anger, befriending and tending to anger. Anger can be our friend. Like, what’s the problem? Let’s actually have it, Kimberley. Let’s actually feel it. Let’s actually feel it go through my body. Let’s allow it to burn itself off. And let’s do that, not because we got to make our point and make sure they know we’re right, but because you actually felt it. You allowed it, you rode the wave of it, it burnt off. And it always burns off. That’s the thing. That’s mindfulness—to recognize that everything is temporary.  If you say-- I’m talking to myself here. If you say what you say when you’re angry, you mightn’t have said it in a way that is effective as if you had said that thing a few moments later when you’ve let a little bit of that anger burn off. Again, I’m not saying here that there’s anything wrong with just saying what you need to say, but for me personally, I’m really trying this year. One of my biggest goals is respect through my words. Respect through my words. Really pausing and being really intentional with my words. And I know that when I’m angry, that is absolutely not happening.  So, we know that expressing anger is fine. We know that bottling it in is usually problematic. Pretending you’re not mad is also inauthentic. Sometimes my husband’s like, “You’re so clearly mad.” And I’m like, “No, I’m not.” And he’s like, “Yeah, it’s all over your face, my friend.” People can sense it. And then they’re questioning like, “Why isn’t she being honest with me?”  WHY DOES ANGER FEEL DANGEROUS?  But I want to acknowledge that anger can feel like an emotional rollercoaster. It does stress out the body. Anger can feel very dangerous sometimes. It can feel very scary to some people, particularly if you have anxiety about it. Some people are really afraid of what they’ll do if they get angry and so they avoid anger and they avoid confrontation and they avoid setting boundaries in fear that anger will come up.  Now, there are a few ways you can bring mindfulness to anger, and that is, first, to recognize it, to observe it. Another way you can diffuse anger is to use your body. This is a big one for me because when I’m angry, I have so much adrenaline pumping through my body, which is a healthy response. We need that. Like if there was a burglar at my door, anger would show up and my brain would send out adrenaline and that would allow me to either fight or run away or wrestle him or whatever it may be. So, I feel a lot of that adrenaline in my body and it does take time to burn off. And so, sometimes moving my body can be really helpful—stretching, taking a walk, taking some breaths, which we’re going to do today. Some people want to journal, chat with a friend. That irritation and frustration that we feel in our body, it’s okay to move your body and tend to it in that way.  The last thing I would add is often when we are angry or if we haven’t been mindful in the emotion and sensations and experiences that lead up to anger, we can actually notice that our thoughts are very distorted. Here is an example.  My husband and I are having a disagreement about a very normal thing. It was a very pretty non-issue issue. But in my mind I could. Once I was really being mindful, I could notice thoughts like, we should agree, we’re going to always fight if we don’t agree. It’s like, okay, that doesn’t have to be the case. I was also having thoughts like if he doesn’t agree, well then, I won’t get my way and then I’ll be held down. I’m having this very catastrophic thought—I’ll be held down and ruled by my husband. It’s like, well, that’s not true either. He’s never going to do that. I’m noticing all these thoughts. If he disagrees with me, that means he’s judging me and thinking I’m bad. Can we actually look at that distortion as well? Because maybe that’s me mind reading. I’m just giving you some examples. I’m not saying these are all ways happening, but these are some examples. Sometimes we have thoughts like, no, you should not think that way. You need to think my way. My way is the only way. PS, I do that a lot sometimes. I’m just telling you the truth here. But again, that doesn’t mean we have to act on those thoughts. If we can just acknowledge them and be like, “Okay, let’s be in choir.” Is that in fact true? Do we all have to agree? How wonderful is it that my husband and I don’t agree on some things because he has actually taught me how to change the way I think about some things that have benefited me. It just took a lot of stubbornness on my part to be flexible enough to see his side of the story.  And so, if we can observe the distortions of our thinking, sometimes that can be really helpful. But let’s also reserve some space here for the situations where you don’t have any distortions and the person is being very unkind and they are hurting you. That’s different. Then, what we can do is we can use that anger as information so that we know what we need to do to protect ourselves. Sometimes it’s setting a boundary. “You can’t speak to me like that.” Sometimes it’s saying, “You can’t come into my house and do these things to me.” Sometimes it’s saying, “I’m going to not follow you on Instagram if it makes me angry.” Or if you’re seeing a bunch of things that’s not helpful to your mental health and is making you compare and get angry, maybe you might want to not follow that person anymore.  And so, anger, again, if you can see it for what it is, is an opportunity to listen to what is going on and be mindful and just acknowledge, and then if need be, make some changes gently that line up with your values. And so, that’s really important for us to recognize.  IS ANGER MASKING ANOTHER EMOTION?  Now there’s one-- again, I keep saying that. There’s one other thing I want you to think about, which is, sometimes underneath anger is another emotion—fear, shame, guilt. For me, I actually realized about a month ago, and I’ll just share this with you, sorry, is I was noticing a lot of resentment showing up, particularly—if I’m being completely honest with you all, which I always want to be—a lot of resentment around the fact that I live in America. And I was noticing it showing up and going, “This is really weird. Why is resentment showing up? I chose to live here. I knew that was my choice, but a lot of resentment was showing up.” And through talking with a dear friend underneath this anger and resentment, and I felt myself having a tantrum over it, I realized I was deeply grieving and missing my family. Usually, I just feel miss like I’m missing them and I feel sad, but the anger and resentment was masking me from it. And when I acknowledged that, I realized I’m staying in anger because the sadness was “too painful.” In my mind, it felt unbearable. And so, my brain presented to me an opportunity to stay in resentment and anger and really cycle and ruminate on that instead of dropping down into the sadness that I felt.  So, again, anger is complex but also quite simple if we talk about it, like two opposing things at the same time. But what I want to offer to you is, all of these feelings are completely normal. If we can just simply acknowledge them with a sense of kindness, if we can stay with the sensation, if we can stay in compassion for ourselves, we can actually write out these emotions and they can be, what I say to myself, it’s not a problem. That’s my new thing. I keep saying to myself like, “Oh, I’m noticing anger. That’s not a problem. It’s totally okay for you to feel this, Kimberley.” “Oh, I’m noticing anxiety. That’s totally not a problem, Kimberley. Let’s stay with it. Let’s feel it.” ANGER AND RESENTMENT MEDITATION And so, let’s begin with a short meditation to where you may practice that. Now, if you’re driving, number one, please do not close your eyes. Number two, if you’re feeling an urge to turn off this podcast now and be like, “I got what I needed,” please just listen. You don’t even have to practice. I just want you to listen to what I’m saying and see if anything lands. Here we go. We’re going to mindfully tend to feelings of anger and resentment.  Bring your awareness to whatever is going on for you right now... and allow your body to rest as you feel the pool of gravity down on the chair or the bed or whatever it is that you’re resting on.  And as you are aware of your weight sinking down to that point of contact between you and the floor, the chair, or the bed, I want you to notice what sensations are you noticing right now. Where does anger show up for you? Where does resentment show up for you? Are they the same or are they different? And just take some time to notice any resistance towards noticing anger and resentment.  And if you notice any tension or resistance, gently turn towards them. Maybe you offer a gentle hello to them. Good morning. Good evening.  And as you notice them rise and fall in your body, offer some acceptance as best as you can that they’re there. If you notice that you’re tensing up around them with each outbreath, see if you can let go or release any tension in your muscles or in your mind. Again, not trying to get rid of them, but also not holding on to them. Soften your body as best as you can, bringing acceptance to those sensations. Continuing to breathe in no particular fashion at all, except whatever feels easy for you.  Notice any thoughts as they arise and they pass through your mind. Notice if there’s any thoughts of blame or shame or guilt or aggression. And notice them for what they are, which is emotions, sensations. See if you can let them come and go, rise and fall without over-identifying with the content of those thoughts, without engaging with the content. Just note them. “Oh, I’m noticing blame. I’m noticing the urge to punish that person. I’m noticing the urge to create justice. I’m noticing the experience or urge to neutralize the pain they’ve caused me by punishing them.” And see if you can just notice them, maybe as clouds in the sky just floating by. No need to rip them out of the sky. Just notice them. And as you notice they’re floating by, can you let go of them? Can you let go of needing to control them or make them go away? And we want to do this kindly and gently. Sometimes it’s helpful to gently bring the sides of your mouth up and gently smile. Not to make the feelings again go away, but to let your brain know that you’re here, that you’re not going to judge it for what it’s experiencing, and that you’ve got your back here.  And now, allow your awareness to broaden and gather the whole experience of breathing into your body with ease. As you breathe in, knowing that you’re breathing in, and breathing out, knowing that you’re breathing out.  Can you feel an awareness that flows through you as you breathe? And can your breath be an anchor in this present moment? Noticing each breath as you inhale and exhale. Noticing any judgment you have for yourself as you have these sensations, any self-criticism. Again, just note them, acknowledge them. Try to remind yourself that anger is a normal and healthy emotion.  You may also want to congratulate yourself for tending to your anger in this moment, instead of internalizing it or displacing it onto other people. And every time you notice your mind has wandered, gently bring your mind back to the breath or the awareness of these sensations in your body.  Now again, expand your awareness back to feeling gravity pull you down as it sits and stands or lies. If there’s anything left behind here, some pain, some discomfort, let’s set the intention to keep this practice going where we’re going to be non-judgmental and compassionate towards this experience. We’re going to cultivate acceptance and acknowledgment of this and your entire experience.  Gently allow the breath to bring you back to the present.  I want to thank you for having the courage to do this exercise with me. The more you offer this practice to your mind, the more the mind will start to see anger again as nothing but an emotion that is knowledge and information for us to make decisions about how we want to move forward. It’s a healthy action towards decision-making, boundary-setting, self-compassion, acceptance. And you’re doing this for the benefit of yourself and for the benefit of others.  Slowly come back. Open your eyes. Notice what’s around you. And I’m going to offer to you to keep going into the day with this practice.  Okay. Thank you for practicing with me today. I wish you nothing but a beautiful day of joy and kindness and warmth and love. Please also remember, it is a beautiful day to do hard things. I will look forward to seeing you next week. Thank you for spending your very valuable time with me today. I hope this was helpful.

In this week's podcast, I talked with Lynn Lyons about her new book, The Anxiety Audit (7 Sneaky Ways Anxiety Takes Hold and How to Escape Them). We discuss:  How repetitive negative thinking disguises itself as problem-solving  How catastrophic thinking makes the world a dangerous place and demands you react accordingly  How big conclusions and an all-or-nothing approach make the world smaller and harder to navigate.  How a fear of judgment isolates and disconnects us from people  How being busy and overscheduled both adds and masquerade anxiety and stress  How we blame others when we are irritable How self-care becomes not self-care at all Transcript This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it is created. Kimberley Quinlan: Okay, good. Well, welcome, Lynn Lyons. I am so thrilled to have you on the show today. Okay, so very exciting. Lynn Lyons: Oh well, thanks for having me. Kimberley Quinlan: You just wrote another book. I will say another book. It's amazing. Please tell me before we get started. Why did you choose that as the title? Lynn Lyons:  Well, what happened was we have a podcast called flusterclux. And I do that with my sister-in-law Robin; she's married to my brother. And during the pandemic, one of the courses we created together, she called it the anxiety on it because we wanted to go through the patterns that maybe people were experiencing and they didn't, they didn't have words to them, they didn't know what was going on. And so we did this course, and we put it out there, and then my publisher said, Do you want to write a book? And I said, “Oh, okay”. And Robin and I said, Well, why don't you just make the course we did into a book? It'll be easy because she's never written a book before. Um, so that sort of was the genesis of it. So the publisher like the title, the anxiety on it. So the book ended up being much more expanded than the original course, but the title was from Robin. And the course we did for the podcast. Kimberley Quinlan: Right. And I loved it because there is a degree of going through your book. We're going to talk today about the seven sneaky ways anxiety takes hold and how to escape that, but I love how it is. It feels like an audit, right? You're kind of auditing through these sneaky ways anxiety can take hold. So, I love that. So, let's go through today's those seven points, and then we will go deeper if we have time. Can you tell me a little about this first main concept of how repetitive thinking disguises itself as the problem? Lynn Lyons: Yeah, it disguises itself as problem-solving. So when you are doing repetitive negative thinking,… Kimberley Quinlan:  Aha. Lynn Lyons is just the lingo we use to describe worrying and ruminating. We generally distinguish between worrying and ruminating in which direction and time they head. So if you are a worrier, you tend to worry about things that haven't happened yet. And if you're a ruminator, you're going back over things, which tends to be both. It can feel pretty obsessive. A ruminator will go back over things and ask those questions. And did I say the right thing? Did I do the right thing? Did I buy the right refrigerator? Did I make the right decision? Lynn Lyons:  Repetitive Negative thinking. The problem with it is that the thinking feels like the solution. Remember, anxiety seeks that certainty.  If I just go over it, if I just think about it, if I just talk about it, if I just ask people about it, if I just get more information about it, that will lead me to a solution. But what we know is that the thinking is actually the problem because when you overthink, Lynn Lyons: You're caught in that repetitive cycle. You're seeking that certainty. So you don't move forward, and you don't take action. It just feels like you're doing something productive. But unfortunately, you're when people go to therapy, if they have this kind of obsessive thinking and they get caught in it, is that the therapist will unknowingly say, Well, let's think about this, or Let's talk about this, some more. Let's explore this. Or What could that mean and the anxieties? Like, Yeah, I love this lady. Now we get to do our thing.  Lynn Lyons:  What we know about people that tend to overthink and get into this repetitive negative thinking is that they are less likely to act on a solution if they come across one in their thinking. So they're saying, “Oh, I'm thinking to figure this out,” but then they never take the necessary action. Yeah. So it's a way to trick you into thinking you're doing the right thing. When you're just feeding your rumination feeding your worry, Kimberley Quinlan: I love it, and you mentioned in your book Chewing the mental card, which I thought was just classic and… Lynn Lyons: Mmm. M. Kimberley Quinlan: hilarious. I grew up on a farm, so that was very appropriate. I love it. Let's go to number two, how catastrophic thinking makes a world, the world a dangerous place and demands. You react accordingly,… Lynn Lyons: Sure. So catastrophic thinking this is like the meat of the anxiety sandwich… Kimberley Quinlan: do you want to share about that? Lynn Lyons: You're always wondering, worrying about, or vividly imagining the worst thing that could happen. And again, this feels like a solution. So if you are a parent and you have this catastrophic way of thinking, you're thinking, all right, so if I can imagine every bad thing that could happen to my child, then I can be ready for it. I can prepare for it; I can prevent it. But what we know is that the more catastrophic you are, the more you think about the bad things that could happen. 00:05:00 Lynn Lyons: The more fearful you are, doesn't mean that you're better prepared to manage things; it means that you start to avoid and remove things from your life. So, Yeah. So it just becomes again. It becomes this way of the anxiety dictating what you do and don't do. Kimberley Quinlan: Right? You talked in this chapter about the pain. The Pain Catastrophizing Scale and… Lynn Lyons:  Mmm. Kimberley Quinlan: that's something that I didn't know a lot about, which I found. Very fascinating. Do you want to share your little thoughts on that? Lynn Lyons: Sure. So what we know from pain and pain is such an interesting phenomenon, isn't it? It's such a rich place for research and study. If you could testify about your pain. So if you anticipate that your pain is going to be terrible, You will respond as if the pain is worse than it is. And one of the things that's interesting is I work a lot with kids and a lot with families and parents. One of the fascinating things is that, say, you've got a child in pain, and you ask the parent to rate the child's pain. Say the child rates their pain as a four. The parent weighs the child's pain as an eight. Lynn Lyons: The parent's rating of the pain is a predictor of impairment in the child. Kimberley Quinlan: Huh. Lynn Lyons: Completely independent of, you know, maybe the child says Oh my pain is a two and the parent says, Oh the truck might try. I'm so worried about my child. I think their pain is an eight that parents catastrophizing about the pain. Predicts whether or not that child goes to school whether or not they predict an activities how much of their life is impaired by the pain. Even though the child is saying, Well like that, my mom thinks the pain is a lot worse than it is. It's the parents' catastrophizing that actually has the impact. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: That is so interesting. And so what what really showed up for me was is that also true of like the pain of the suffering of anxiety, right? Like is if we are catastrophizing how painful the anxiety will be does that? That still the same concept scientifically Lynn Lyons: Well, I don't know about the research in terms of the way they lay it out, so clearly with with pain but here's what we do know. Catastrophic parents being a catastrophic parent about anything. Is a high risk factor for developing anxiety as a chart for children. So, if you have a catastrophic parent, it increases your risk of creating an anxious child. We also know that parents who are anxious have a six to seven times greater risk of having an anxious child. We've got some genetics in there… Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Lynn Lyons: but there's an awful lot of modeling. So when we when we look at how parents talk about the world. one of the things that when parents talk about the world as a dangerous place, when they talk about their child as being incapable of functioning, Lynn Lyons: When they step in so that their child doesn't have the opportunity to get to the other side, doesn't have the opportunity to independently problem solve, all of those things increased anxiety. And because we know that anxiety, untreated is one of the top predictors of depression, by the time you hit adolescence and young adulthood, we know that that that's that cycle is just going to continue. So when I am,… Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm. Lynn Lyons: when I am working with families and I am trying to interrupt this cycle, one of the things just as you said, one of the things I want to really target is, Is this parent catastrophizing? Lynn Lyons:  About their child's ability to function and it may be catastrophizing about their mood catastrophizing about them, being upset or being nervous, right? So so my child is so anxious about this. There's no way I can send them off on this field trip or there's no way I can send them off to this summer camp because look they're so anxious. It absolutely is contagious for sure. 00:10:00 Kimberley Quinlan: And that's true of ourselves too. So if we're catastrophizing, when less likely to go on the field trip, ourselves is correct. Yeah. Lynn Lyons: That's right. Yeah, well, so say, say you're gonna get on an airplane. And you're thinking, Oh gosh I'm going go on this airplane and you start catastrophizing and imagining bad things happening on the plane or the plane crashing and you activate your whole system. So you're having these symptoms and your your stomach feels weird and your heart is pounding. You say to yourself, Oh my gosh, if I feel this bad just thinking about getting on the airplane, it's going to be horrible. When I actually get on the airplane, I better not do it. Right. So we're just watching this scary movie and… Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Lynn Lyons: it makes sense if you're sitting there watching a terrible movie with a horrible outcome, Of course you want to avoid that thing but we have to recognize that that catastrophic thinking is a pattern of thinking not an actual predictor of outcome. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan:  Right. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, and you talked about that about sleep as well. Lynn Lyons:  Oh, yeah, well, the thing that most the thing, that people who are have difficulty sleeping people with insomnia, the number one thing they worry about is sleeping, right? So you can't sleep. And then you start worrying about not being able to sleep and off off the cycle goes. Yep. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Yeah of for me actually I remember when I had my newborn baby. It was the fear of being tired. Lynn Lyons:  Mmm. Kimberley Quinlan: So I would I would pressure myself to sleep because I'd catastrophized, what tiredness was gonna feel like,… Lynn Lyons: Yes. Yes,… Kimberley Quinlan: right. Yeah. Lynn Lyons: I've certainly many people have that. I interestingly had this client long ago who catastrophized the feeling of being hungry. That she couldn't tolerate feeling hungry so you can you can grab onto anything in catastrophize about it for sure. Kimberley Quinlan:  Right. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Fantastic. I agree. Yeah. Okay. Now this is cool and we've talked a little bit about this in the show before but let's just go over it really quick. How big conclusions and all or nothing approach make the world smaller and harder to navigate. Lynn Lyons:  Mm-hmm. Kimberley Quinlan: You talk about going global. Do you want to share a little bit about that? Lynn Lyons:  Yeah. So so global thinking, so if you have a global attributional style or a global cognitive style it means that you come to big conclusions. Usually about yourself or other people, right? So oh I never get what I want or I always screw up or nobody understands me. These are these big huge words that then if you believe that well nobody likes me. Well then you're not gonna you're not gonna step out there and take any kind of risks or reach out to people because you've already come to the conclusion. So when people are global in their thinking, they're much more likely to one break things down into parts, so they can recognize, well, there's a sequence to making friends or there's a sequence to getting a new job, or there's a sequence to cleaning out my basement. So they, they get into this place of like, Well, it's a disaster. I, you know, I can't do it and then they also begin to believe that about other people. So when you're global about other people, it shuts, Lynn Lyons:  Off. Right. Well, that group of people could never like me. Or that group of people is this or that group of people, is that So, the opposite of global and we know that global thinking huge risk factor for anxiety and depression. When we're confronted with that, or when we notice that we're doing with doing that, we want to back up from it and say, Okay, so I just heard myself using that global language, right? I just heard myself say, Oh, I'll never get this done. Oh, there it was right now. Why am I saying that? Well, I'm feeling a little overwhelmed. It does look like a big project in front of me. Maybe it is a big project in front of me. So now I'm gonna break it down and I'm gonna recognize there's the beginning and a middle and an end, there's a sequence, right? And that moves us out of that big global way of thinking that's just absolutely paralyzing. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm. Yeah, I love that. Okay. How anxieties fear of judgment isolates, and disconnects us from the from people, right? And I, I will, if you could speak to where you also touched on the disconnection, happens on the inside. You won't share a little about that. Lynn Lyons: Yeah. So so interestingly when when when people are lonely It can be in two categories, one is that it's situational. So you've just moved to a new city. You don't know anybody. You're starting college and you're there by yourself or it can be more of a pattern of the way you interact with the world. And again the conclusions that you come to, so you look at the way that the world is connecting and interacting and you conclude that one is that everybody does it better than you,… Kimberley Quinlan: If? Lynn Lyons: right? That it's easy for everybody that it comes naturally to everybody and that it's not gonna work for you. Lynn Lyons:  And you go inside and I always say, You know, you have a meeting with your anxiety inside you're having meeting and and during the meeting, you say, You know that. Well there's this is, this is terrible. I don't have the skills. Nobody wants to connect with me and also you fear the judgment of other people. So one of the mistakes that we often make with somebody who's feeling this way who's feeling isolated, who doesn't feel like they can connect is we try and talk them out of it. 00:15:00 Lynn Lyons:  By saying things like, Well people don't judge or, um, you know, nobody's paying attention to you or, Oh, people aren't thinking that, right? That's just not true. People do judge, they judge all the time, and we notice people. And if I'm, if I'm on an airplane and somebody has this really crazy hairdo, I'm gonna be like, Wow, look at that hairdo. Or if I, you know, got an airplane and somebody has this really funky tattoo on their face, I'm gonna say, like, well I wonder how they decided to put that tattoo on their face. We do it all the time. And so what we have to develop is the ability to tolerate being vulnerable and we can do it in small steps, you know, you don't have to, you know, you don't want to share your life story with the person you met two minutes ago. Lynn Lyons: But recognizing that when our anxiety shows up and says, I can't take a risk, I can't be vulnerable, everybody can connect, but me, you go inside and you convince yourself, not based on what's happening on the outside, but what's happening on the inside that you aren't capable of connecting? And then boy,… Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Right? Lynn Lyons: it just snowballs Kimberley Quinlan: I love it and so true of the pandemic and where we're at in the World,… Lynn Lyons:  You yeah, yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: Right? Yeah. Okay. The next two chapters were my favorite. okay, and… Lynn Lyons:  Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: so I wanted to talk about this a little bit, you talked about how being busy and over scheduled, Which like I raised my hand to ads and… Lynn Lyons: Mm-hmm. Awesome. Kimberley Quinlan: masquerades anxiety and stress. Lynn Lyons:  Yeah, so the interesting thing about busy and I raise my hand too. I'm you know so I get it. Um, We love the idea of being busy it because it's, it's this currency now, right? We can't, we can't really brag about how money, how much money we make. We can't say to, you know, if you ran into a friend on the street you and they said, Oh, how are you doing? Kimberley you and say, like, Oh, I'm doing great. I am making so much money this year, it's fabulous because they say, Oh my gosh, that's so tasteless. Why is she saying that? But you can say, Oh I am so busy. My life is so crazy. That's become sort of our currency of importance. Lynn Lyons: Of how busy we are. So the more busy we are the more we feel like we're worthy and the more busy we are the more we don't have time to feel things that we're going to feel so we keep ourselves busy as a way to just keep that that brain of ours in motion and we have difficulties sort of settling back in but it is interesting. It you know, when I was doing the research for this chapter it a few things were really we're really kind of amusing to me and true you read this. They say of course of course is it a life of leisure that used to be something to brag about right back in the old days… Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Lynn Lyons: because the farmers and the labors and the coal miners, right? But if you, if you could sit back and and relax and drink a mint julep, right? That meant you had social status, well, sort of flip. Now, we don't really admire people that sit back and… Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Lynn Lyons: don't work. So, that's an interesting thing I found and then the other Lynn Lyons: Interesting thing I found is that people who brag a lot and sometimes it's that humble brag, right? Oh I wish I weren't so busy. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Um people who brag a lot about how much they work are very inaccurate about the hours that they work and the more hours that you say you work oftentimes the more you're off. So people say Oh I work a hundred hour week and I always think to myself No you don't right? Because Even if you worked 12 hours a day, seven days a week, that's not even a hundred hours a week. Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Lynn Lyons: And so what what they found is those people who say Oh I work 70 hours a week really are working about 40 But it's just it's just indicative of how much we want to keep ourselves busy. Lynn Lyons: And how how often times it's it sounds kind of backwards in paradoxical but it's true that we really like that feeling of chaos that we create because it means that we don't have to sit back and sort of look at how things are really going. And we do it. Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Lynn Lyons: We do it with our kids, for sure. And a lot of kids right now, believe that the way that life is supposed to be in the way that we measure our success is, how busy we are. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, I always think of like I I remember moments where I in early in my own anxiety recovery where I could feel and I've talked about this on the podcast like feel myself, typing really fast and it's funny when you're so focused on what you're doing. You do tend to have less anxiety so it feels like a relief. Almost it's a compulsion, right? It's a relief to your anxiety. 00:20:00 Lynn Lyons: It is, yeah. Yeah. Well. Kimberley Quinlan: Like I don't have to be up here if I'm typing like crazy or I'm focusing. Lynn Lyons:  That's right. Kimberley Quinlan: And I think that that you use the word masquerade down, anxiety, and stress. I think that, that is right on the money, right, that where we are. Busying as an avoidant compulsion. Lynn Lyons: Mmm. That's right. Kimberley Quinlan: Do you agree with that? Lynn Lyons: Yeah. Well because if you're, you know, if you're if you're if you've got a lot going on in your head, And maybe your thoughts are saying, You know, you're not good enough, you're not busy enough, you should be doing this right? You're shooting on yourself, you're doing all this stuff and if you can keep your brain in your body busy and occupied, And almost as if like, you can't keep up and you've got, you've got this little feeling of of urgency or emergency. Oh, I've got to do this, I've got to do this, it really distracts and sort of satisfies. Those thoughts in your head of, I, you know, what's gonna happen next. And it allows you to not really experience the worry and the anxiety because you're just busy, busy, busy busy. Well yeah,… Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Lynn Lyons: one of the things it's interesting. We did a podcast episode on this a little while ago, this this term high functioning anxiety. Kimberley Quinlan:  Yeah. Lynn Lyons: Which is sort of amusing to me, right? Because it's the city right, everybody wants to have these new categories, right? It's not this. It's this high functioning anxiety and they had this list of The list of symptoms this checklist, I saw in this article which was just silly like you know you chew your lip or you chew gum or you don't make eye contact, you know it's just silly but but when we look at it, high functioning anxiety is no different than any other kind of anxiety. It's just that you're getting the job done and… Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Lynn Lyons: then people are giving you a lot of positive feedback for that,… Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Right. Lynn Lyons: right? So yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: Right. A busyness is another form of like, avoidance of the fear, right? Yeah. Yeah. Lynn Lyons: That's right, that's right. And it because of the way our culture works It, it feels good in the moment and you get the payoff of somebody saying,… Kimberley Quinlan:  Yeah. Lynn Lyons: Oh my gosh, you are so busy. How do you do all that you do? Oh gosh, I've never met anybody. You know what? If we want a job done, we got to give it to Kimberley, she's gonna get it done and… Kimberley Quinlan:  Right. Right. Lynn Lyons: all of that feels so good, but it totally burns you out, if you, if you keep it up for sure. Kimberley Quinlan: They'd like No, I'm just over here doing a bunch of avoidant compulsions. Lynn Lyons: Yeah, right. Kimberley Quinlan: That's why Right. Lynn Lyons: We don't say that. Right? Oh my gosh. You're doing so much Kimberley. Oh no, I'm just avoiding compulsing. Yeah, no. We don't say that. Yeah. Yeah, they would. They would they be like, Oh okay. So maybe we won't give her that next assignment then. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Well, and that brings me to the next part of this which again these were my two favorite pots and concepts mainly, I think because it's I still like, ooh, there's some truth there. I need to be listening. And I think it links so well together with the last one about being over scheduled and busy talking about irritability, right? Because And you had said here and I'll use your your terms exactly how irritability likes to blame others but can be a red flag for you. Do you want to share that? Because I feel like they go hand in hand with that over scheduling. Lynn Lyons: Yes. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: Do you tell me your thoughts? Lynn Lyons: No, I agree. And in fact, like all of these patterns, sort of overlap, don't they? Kimberley Quinlan:  You know. Lynn Lyons: Because we can be catastrophic and over scheduled at the same time. Yeah, irritability is, is a red flag. So irritability. I talk about all these patterns and irritability is a sign that perhaps you're really not addressing what you need to address. One of the, the definitions of irritability that I talk about in the book is that it's described as blocked goal attainment. Okay, so that's it. A research term is that you can't get… Kimberley Quinlan:  Yeah. Lynn Lyons: what you want and something is in the way the other term that I read, and it's in the book, is they defined irritability as feeling angry and the ability to sustain that anger? Kimberley Quinlan:  and, Lynn Lyons: So it's this constant sense of not getting what you want, not being able to feel satisfied. And what happens is you start looking outside to find out why you're so irritable. It must be because my kids aren't doing what I told them to do. It must be because my partner is not fulfilling the agreement that we made. It must be because my boss is such a jerk, it must be because of the traffic, it must be because of the weather, it must be because of this and what we really want to step back and look at is How is this constant level of irritability? Kimberley Quinlan: You. 00:25:00 Lynn Lyons: How are you sustaining it? What are you doing? Is it your perfectionism is it the fact that you want to compuls and people are getting in the way of your compulsing because you're in your mind if I can only compulsa and I'll feel better but people aren't letting you do what you want to do. Lynn Lyons:  Is it because inside there is a constant conversation with you about how you're not meeting your own expectations. How are you creating this level of Sort of low-grade simmering this low-grade dissatisfaction that is just eating away both at you and and your your relationships. It's hard to hang out with somebody who's irritable all the time. Kimberley Quinlan: And what would you suggest somebody do? If they've caught this red flag of irritability, how would you encourage them to navigate that? Lynn Lyons: So, the first thing you want to do, and I think I say this about a lot of the patterns in the book. Is you just want to talk about it? Openly with the people you live with, because one of the things that's enormously helpful is for you to own your own stuff, right? So if you know that you're struggling with irritability or even just on a busy day you come home and you're feeling particularly irritable to say to the people that you love the people who are in your orbit. Hey you know what, I had a rough day. I'm feeling irritable, it is not you, it's me it's not your fault. So you're really gonna pay attention to that blaming and you can even say to the people around. You give me a few moments, right? I've got to go for a walk or I'm gonna listen to some music or man. I just need to eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Lynn Lyons: And then give yourself permission and, and more than permissions, sort of give yourself a little kick in the hello. That says, I'm gonna, I'm gonna work on releasing this irritability without going after other people. And that diffuses it very quickly and… Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm. Lynn Lyons: then if you're a parent, you're modeling that for your kids, which is a wonderful thing and… Kimberley Quinlan:  Yeah. Lynn Lyons: then you really have to look and see if it's a chronic thing. What do you keep doing over and over and over again? That's making you irritable. Lynn Lyons:  How are you going to recognize that and accept that? Because a lot of times people say, Well I don't know why I'm so irritable and then we talk about it. And it's pretty obvious why they're so irritable. Now that means you have to adjust or adapt and it might be your schedule. Maybe you're not getting enough sleep. Maybe you're saying yes, too often. When you want to say, no, maybe you are ruminating in your head about how other people have, let you down all the time, maybe you're catastrophizing. So those horrible stories about what the world is going to look like are really making you irritable. So it's it's a way for you to to step back and say What am I doing? That's resulting in this state that I'm in. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: And yeah, yeah. And I'll just for being transparent. I have found as soon as I'm irritable, it's because I'm refusing to feel some feeling like that is for me. I'm like, I don't want to feel this feeling. Lynn Lyons: You. Kimberley Quinlan: So I'm gonna be like Real shop and all edgy around everything. So I think that's just such a great point. It's like, I don't want to feel the anxiety. I'm feeling so I'm just like,… Lynn Lyons:  Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: frightened reactionary. So I think that that is such a common. I see it a lot with my patients as well. Just a deep sense of frustration of like you said, they won't let me compuls and… Lynn Lyons:  and, Kimberley Quinlan: that. Okay, that's means that you're gonna have to feel some anxiety,… Lynn Lyons:  Right. Right. Now. Kimberley Quinlan: right? So I you're on the money there. I love. Okay. This was an interesting one and the last point how self-care is hijacked and becomes not self-care at all. Lynn Lyons:  If well, and I think that you you sort of teed this up for me very well because oftentimes what we call self-care is really means of avoidance. Right trying to eliminate. So I'm trying to get rid of some feeling. I'm trying to avoid something that I need to address. I don't want to feel this way. We, I talk a lot about our elimination culture and how we're really focused on trying to get rid of things like feelings or discomfort or right. So we take on these practices that we call self care, that are really about getting rid of something or avoiding something and so that can be Lynn Lyons: Anything from drinking or using other substances to spending money, you don't have to binging on Netflix and not getting the sleep. You need, because you feel like you want to escape, what's going on? When you are doing something that in the moment you're saying, you know what? This is really for me. And then the next day you feel regret about it, probably not self care. Right self-care. Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm. Lynn Lyons: If you do it consistently. After after I do something that is truly, you know, one of my good self-care things. I don't say to myself. Oh, I can't believe I did. I can't believe I got eight hours of sleep last night like, Oh, what a loser. I can't believe I went for a walk with my friend. Oh, right. But if I 00:30:00 Lynn Lyons: Spend too much money, or if I stay up too late, or if I skip my exercise, that helps me so much, or if I eat half the chocolate cake. The next day, I'm probably gonna say, Oh honey, like do that, You know,… Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm. Lynn Lyons: I should. So that's one of the easy ways to sort of determine for yourself whether or not you're engaged in self-care or self medication, but self care isn't a one hit wonder, right? It's not, it's not a quick fix. It's a consistent pattern. Moving. Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Right. Yeah, I talk I wrote a book about self compassion and I talk about the same thing as people say. Well this is the self compassionate thing to do to not face my fear or… Lynn Lyons:  You. Kimberley Quinlan: to not, you know, to not get out of bed and yes, I understand some days we have to be gentle but I think we also rely on self compassion. Sometimes as a, as a way to avoid our feelings and… Lynn Lyons:  That's right. Kimberley Quinlan: wade fear as well. I think that really, you know, is so true. You did talk about self-medicating, and then you would said that, When you're able to identify these seven points, that's a form of self-care. Lynn Lyons: That's right. Lynn Lyons: That's right. Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Do you want to share a little about that and… Kimberley Quinlan: what that looks like? Lynn Lyons:  Well, so if you are reading this book, or if you're listening to me now and you're beginning to recognize that you have a few of these patterns that really take over and then and you begin to own them. Just like I was talking about with irritability and you begin to see the pattern. It takes courage to change the pattern. It takes courage to say, Oh gosh, I look catastrophizer or boy, do I get caught up in a ruminating about things, as a way to solve problems? Or you know what? I have been saying that my two or three glasses of wine. Every night is self-care and I'm really noticing that I feel worse the next day, or I don't sleep very well. So once you begin to own them and once you begin to, you know, you can talk about them openly with the people you care about. Lynn Lyons:  Things start to shift the biggest thing and I'm sure you see this with your patients as well. Kimberley The biggest roadblock that I run up to run up against is when people deny that they're doing the things that I know are causing them to stress. and then, when they blame other people, You know, I I say this all the time, I have this client, The daughter was struggling with OCD, Dad had OCD, he was highly perfectionistic. Things had to be perfect in the house. He would miss his kids, recitals, or their soccer games, because he had to come home after work. And make sure that everything in the house was perfect. And I was trying to explain this to him, this rigidity and his OCD. And he said to me, What's wrong with a neat and tidy house. Lynn Lyons:  Now nothing except that, that's not what was going on here. But his denial of his patterns and his inability to own them and to talk to his family about them because you can imagine what his daughter did when he said that, right? She like threw herself back on the couch and rolled her eyes got in the way of him, being able to move forward. so, When you know people talk about it, say you say, you're phobic of something, we talk about the courage to face your fears, right? So if you're afraid of bridges, you have to have the courage to go across the bridge. Or if you're afraid of germs, you have to have the courage to touch germs. I feel like the courage is much more, the courage on the inside. Lynn Lyons:  To acknowledge what's going on and then to work to do the opposite and to really be to really be honest. And vulnerable with yourself. The courage comes not on the bridge or with the germs, but the courage comes from saying, I'm really struggling with this pattern, with this issue with this compulsion, and it feels scary. I'm gonna face what's going on inside of me. And that's gonna help me face. What's going on outside of me? Lynn Lyons:  Yeah. Yeah. Lynn Lyons:  Mmm. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: Awareness is the first step but that accountability. That's a hard one. Like it's it,… Lynn Lyons:  It is a hard one. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: it's a good one, but I had one and I think Do you have like I know where we're close to being finished? I want to be respectful of your time. But do you have any thoughts on how to work towards that accountability, particularly if you're someone who's rigid and doesn't like that, Lynn Lyons: Well, I mean, one of the, one of the things that I think is really helpful is for people to recognize that these patterns and OCD and anxiety is really common, and people don't talk about it. But gosh,… 00:35:00 Kimberley Quinlan:  If? Lynn Lyons: how many people have OCD in this world? How many people struggle with the things that we talk about on a daily basis? So I'm I say to people, you know, you're not unique. Your problem isn't special. It's it's, it feels big to you because it's your problem, but there are really a lot of things that we can do to help this. We know a lot about it, it's not mysterious the content of what your worried about or the content of your OCD is meaningless. This is a process. This is a thought process issue and let's just get over this idea that it's so special and that you're unique and that there's nothing anybody can do because you're worse than everybody else, right? So that's one of the things I do. Lynn Lyons:  And then also really helping people. Learn about Other People's Stories. I think there are some wonderful books and resources where you read about other people's struggles. And you begin to realize gosh, This is so much of what I've experienced it is. It's a matter of being vulnerable in a matter of moving away from this idea that the perfect world that other people are presenting is not so perfect, after all. Yeah, Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, so true. So true. Lynn, I have loved getting all your wisdom. Thank you so much. Do you want to tell us where people can learn about you and about your book and all the things? Lynn Lyons: Sure, sure. So my website is just Lynn Lyons.com. I'm on Instagram at Lynn Lyons anxiety. I'm fairly new to Instagram. My younger son is my is my Instagram helper, and then I'm on Facebook. If you go on Lynn Lyons, and just put in anxiety or psychotherapist, we've got the podcast fluster clocks with an X that comes out every Friday. Um, By the time, this comes out, by the time that people are hearing this, the audible book for the anxiety audit. Hopefully we'll be released because they told me it will be out in January. I just recorded it right before our Thanksgiving in November. So I'm excited to welcome that into the world. So yeah there's there's you know, all sorts of videos and things on my website and resources and things you can check out. Kimberley Quinlan: Fantastic and I'll link all those in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on. Lynn Lyons:  Thank you. Kimberley Quinlan: It's a delight to me meet with you. Lynn Lyons:  Thank you for having me and thank you for all of your wonderful questions you made it so easy, which is nice. Kimberley Quinlan:  Wonderful, thank you. Lynn Lyons:  All right. Yeah, that was great. You are you are super easy to talk to so thank you. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: Oh, I'm so glad I didn't tell you. I beforehand, you've written a book with Read Wilson. Lynn Lyons: Yeah. He is. Kimberley Quinlan: He's a very dear friend of mine. Yeah. Yeah,… Lynn Lyons: Yeah. All right. Kimberley Quinlan: so I'm Lynn Lyons: Well, I'll tell you say hello. Yeah. We wrote two books together, I am. Kimberley Quinlan:  yeah. Lynn Lyons: I was just talking to him the other day. Yeah, that's how did you, how did you meet him just through working on OCD stuff. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, through ICD. He's been on the show a bunch of times and… Lynn Lyons:  Oh, that's awesome. Kimberley Quinlan: and I consider him such a, I know a helpful resource and and support. So I just wanted, I want to mention that at the end. Lynn Lyons: Oh yeah,… Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Yeah,… Lynn Lyons: that's awesome. Kimberley Quinlan: I don't often usually we don't take guess… Lynn Lyons: That's awesome. Kimberley Quinlan: unless I'm sort of developed a relationship but your name went underneath the,… Lynn Lyons:  Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: the read seal of approval. Lynn Lyons: If? Well,… Kimberley Quinlan: I was so glad to meet with you. And have you on the show? Yeah, you guys trained together. Lynn Lyons: thank you. Thanks for having me. Kimberley Quinlan: Is that what it was? Lynn Lyons: Oh no, he we wrote the books together so I'd never I'd never met him before and we were presenting it. I was we were both presenting at a brief therapy conference. I think when was it like Like, 15 years ago, maybe. And so he just,… Kimberley Quinlan:  Yeah. Lynn Lyons: he just popped in and listened to my talk and then he emailed me a little while later and said, I want to write a book on kids, but I don't work with kids, and I need a co-author,… Kimberley Quinlan:  Sure. Lynn Lyons: would you want to write a book with me? So I was like, Yeah. So so we wrote the two books together. It was a period of four and a half years of writing. And, you know, the two books and I think God. I mean, I talked to him every day. Probably for, you know, three and a half years. So yeah, we've become, we've become good friends. Yeah, he is a good guy. Super helpful to me,… Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Lynn Lyons: too. I just, I just love what he's offered me. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, and and my clients and… Lynn Lyons:  Mmm. Kimberley Quinlan: my stuff to be honest. Like so often when I'm consulting with my staff, they'll like bring up a read Wilson comment. Lynn Lyons:  Yeah, yeah, and his new OCD program is just amazing. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: And it's really wonderful. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: Amazing. Yeah. Really amazing. That the six the six-part plan is so cool. Yeah. I love the work that you're both doing. Lynn Lyons:  Yeah. 00:40:00 Kimberley Quinlan: Thank you for all your work. I'm like a learner of your work, right? I'm yeah,… Lynn Lyons:  Oh thanks. Thanks thanks. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: it's really wonderful. Yeah, yeah, well, thank you so much. I it will be out on the 24th of February,… Lynn Lyons:  Okay. Kimberley Quinlan: and we usually link to Instagram. I'm really active on Instagram and… Lynn Lyons:  Okay. Kimberley Quinlan: it comes out on Friday, as well. I'll probably please come out and Friday. And so, if you want to have your assistant or a publisher, I'm not sure email me. All of the links to anything you want me to add in the show notes. That's usually an easy way to make sure I get it correct. Lynn Lyons: Okay, okay. Kimberley Quinlan: And I think that's it. Yeah. Lynn Lyons:  All right. Great. Shoot. Me an email. Just to remind me before it comes out, so I can start to promote it on my stuff too. Okay. Kimberley Quinlan:  Yeah, wonderful. Yeah, and it's really great to meet with you and chat. Alright. Take a have a good day.Lynn Lyons:  Okay, thank you very much. Bye.

This is Your Anxiety Toolkit - Episode 318, and welcome 2023.  Welcome back, guys. Happy 2023. Happy New Year. I want you to imagine you and I are sitting down at a table and we both have the most wonderful, warm tea or coffee or water or whatever it is that you enjoy, and we are going to have a talk. You’re not getting a talking too, I’m not saying that. But I want you to imagine that I’m standing in front of you or sitting in front of you and we’ve got eyes locked, and I am dead serious in what I’m talking to you about because I believe it to be the most important thing you need for 2023. I really, really do.  So, let’s talk. Okay, you’ve got your tea. I’ve got my tea. Let’s do this. Okay. So, I want you to imagine that you have a suffering in your life. We all have suffering. It’s a part of being a human. Life is 50/50. It’s 50% easy and 50% hard. We all are going to have suffering this year. But I want you to imagine this scenario. It could be something that’s hard for you that you’re already going through or could be imagined. And I want you to think about that there’s a circumstance or a situation that happened that is out of your control and it’s causing you suffering. Maybe it’s a thought that’s intrusive, maybe it’s anxiety, maybe it’s depression. Maybe you have a hole in your tire, maybe you-- if you hear some people walking, it’s because my whole family are upstairs playing. But maybe you have some financial stresses, relationship stresses. Maybe you feel very alone. Whatever you’re suffering is, I want you to acknowledge that you’re having this suffering. And then I want you to think about, who could I call to help me manage this pain in my life? Is it someone who could support me and nurture me during that suffering? Is it someone who has the solution to that problem? Is it somebody who’s been through it before and they can guide you on what to do?  So what we do when we have suffering is we gather hopefully a list of people who we can help and we reach out to them. That’s good coping, right? But what I want you to do differently, or maybe you’re already doing this and I want you to do more of in 2023, is I want you to move you to the top of that list. I want you to be the first person you call to offer yourself the support and wisdom and guidance, right?  I’m not here to say there’s anything wrong with calling the other people. In fact, I am a huge believer in gathering your peeps when things are hard, calling your speed-dial people, right? That’s cool. I want you to be doing that. But I want for this year for you to move yourself to the top of the list and ask yourself, what is it that you need while you suffer? How can I support you while you suffer? What do you need to hear as you suffer? How can I tend to this suffering in a kind, compassionate, non-abandoning way? How can we be that for ourselves? We have to be at the top of the list. And I don’t mean that in any preachy way. I mean it because let’s look at the problems when we’re not, when we don’t show up at the top of the list. We build this belief that we need other people and we don’t have what it takes to get through it, right? When we put ourselves at the top of the list, we develop and grow muscles in our brain that have us start to see that we can cope really well by ourselves. That we have everything that we need, right? That is so, so beautiful.  And the reason I’m sharing this with you in this hopefully not preachy way is I was journaling the other day and I was really asking myself like, what is it that I want to talk about? What is it that I’m so passionate about? What is it that lights a fire inside me? And while, yes, I love talking about anxiety and yes, I love talking about OCD and I love talking about mental health and all the things, this one thing I believe is the biggest game changer above and beyond all the tools that I give you in my toolkit.  Oh, PS, I have to tell you, I was looking for-- I was doing a Google search on Your Anxiety Toolkit because I just had to pull up something and it’s easier for me just to Google it. And when I wrote it in, this teeny tiny wooden kids toolkit showed up, like this little toolbox. And I couldn’t help myself, but I had to buy it because I was like, that’s exactly it, right? This is all about me giving you an array of tools and tools that are super effective and tools that you know when to use them. Because imagine if you had a saw but you were using it for the wrong thing, that would be very ineffective. So, that’s the whole premise of this podcast. But I was thinking about, of all the tools in the toolkit, this might be the most important one, which is the one that teaches you how strong you are. That you are the most unconditional friend for yourself, the most unconditional friend. You are there non-stop, no matter what. No matter what happens, you have the capacity to sit with yourself in compassion while you suffer.  So, that’s it, you guys. That’s all I have to say. That’s the goal I have for you this year. And I would love to hear and to know what outcomes you get from that. So, as you practice it, don’t be afraid to, if you signed up for our newsletter, reply and let me know. How’s that going for you? How’s that helping?  Again, I want to really be clear here. We are not showing up for ourselves first because we don’t deserve other people’s help. We’re still going to ask for their help, but we are moving ourselves to the front of the line. We’re moving ourselves to the first person we speed dial, right? And we’re showing up for ourselves as much as possible so that if the person that’s second in line doesn’t have the capacity for us today, that’s all right because we already know that the first-speed dial person, which is us, is there ready to pick up whatever is left over. Okay?  So that is my hope for 2023. That is my hope for you for the rest of the decade as well. And this is something I feel again so incredibly strong about. Sorry, that didn’t make sense. It’s something I feel so deeply about. Okay?  All right. I am sending you the biggest love. I have got some super exciting, big things happening in the new year. Big for me, hopefully, helpful for you. Hopefully, that will, again, give you more tools, more effective tools, make you more clear on which ones to use and when. It will mean that the structure of the podcast will change just a little but hopefully for the better. Okay?  All right. I’ll see you guys next week and we will go from there.  Have a wonderful day and it is a beautiful day to move yourself to the top of the list. Have a good one, everyone.

Welcome back, everybody. I am thrilled, thrilled, thrilled to have you here again, finishing out the year so strong. In this episode, we planned perfectly for this week because my guess is that you’re starting to make New Year’s resolutions or make New Year’s goals, and we wanted to talk, myself and the amazing guests that we have this week, about how you can change your habits in the most compassionate and effective way..  We have back this week with us Monica Packer. She’s been on the show before. To be honest, she’s like a warm hug to me. I just feel like it’s just sitting down and having a chat with a dear long friend, like an old friend. I love speaking with Monica. She’s just got such deep wisdom to her. And so, today, we got together and talked about how to change your habits compassionately and effectively. Because when people set resolutions or New Year’s goals, they’re just talking about creating new habits, like how can I create new habits in my life? How can I make a change in my life? And sometimes, we tend to do that in a very aggressive, critical way. And so, we wanted to sit down and talk about how we can do that in a compassionate, effective way. Kimberley: Okay. Welcome, Monica. I’m so happy to have you here.  Monica: Oh, it really is a joy. I just love everything you do and who you are, more importantly. So, I’m excited to be here again. HOW TO CHANGE YOUR HABITS  Kimberley: Thank you. Thank you. Okay, so you and I were chatting, and I love this idea of preparing for the hard day, but particularly emphasizing how to change your habits that prepare you for your dark day or your hard day. Tell me a little about why that is so important to you or even how you’ve implemented this in your life. Monica: When I think back on my history with habit formation, it was clouded for a long time with these all-or-nothing models that taught me to have good habits, they needed to look this way, and it needed to be formed in this way. It needed to be consistent in this way. And a big part of that was not only were we supposed to have an ideal, we were supposed to start with the ideal. You just decide what the habit is and then you do it for 28 days, or whatever number we all have in our heads. You get to that magical number and it’s a habit. And that never worked for me. And so, for a really long time-- well, it worked for me when I was the type A, very overachieving perfectionist. But that came at a big cost in my life. And we talked about that I think in our past interview we did together. And that cost was not one I was willing to make for a long time. I wasn’t willing to sacrifice my mental and physical and spiritual health and my relationships anymore to be so performing.  And so, because of that, I thought that was the only way to, one, progress in your life and have goals, but also trickle down to habits. I just thought I can do the habits that are required of me for my work and for my family, home management kind of things. But for myself, that was a different story because I thought, no, these are the habits I want, and they’re so beautiful and amazing and would be so helpful in my life. But in order to get there, I can’t do what that requires. I can’t, so I just didn’t.  But then when I got back into habit formation a few years ago, which was not a plan of mine, but it just happened naturally as I was really working on identity and fulfillment in my life, I realized those two areas had to be supported with habits to just even give me the time and the energy to carve out what I needed to for those two areas of my life. And as part of that, I had to figure out habits in a new way.  I know this is a really long answer to your question, but the nutshell version of this is that a lot of us, if not all of us, are set up to fail with habit formation in the way that we’ve been taught since we were little kids. I mean, even that number thing I said alone, like how many days does it take to form a habit – we all have a number because we’ve been taught a number. But that number is not realistic for most people, especially if you’re in a caretaking role or in any kind of position or season of life where you have to be more reactive in nature to your responsibilities. Every day is different. Every season is different too. There’s that kind of flexibility that makes it so you have to do habits differently.  And so, what I’ve learned over the past few years is that, instead of starting with an ideal version of a habit, and that being “This is my habit,” those are only ideal. Those are only possible for those best of days kind of days. When you get really good sleep, your routine is really set. It’s more predictable. And that didn’t work for me, didn’t work for most of the women I work with. I work with primarily women. So, instead, what we want to do is both start with what I call a baseline habit and always have that be the foundational habit we come back to on our worst of days.  The baseline habit to me is, the ideal is the highline. We definitely want to have the ideal in mind, like this is what I want ultimately. But the baseline is your foundational way to get there. It’s the form of the habit that you can do on your worst of day, when you’re really tired, when you’re going through a depressive episode, when a kid feels really sick during the night, whatever it is. And having that baseline version isn’t you lazying or-- what’s the word? It’s not you being lazy, it’s not yourself saying, “Oh, I’m just going to get my permission to not do the habit.” It’s no. This is my best-of-day version today on this worst-of-day. This is the best I can do on this day. And because I have this version of it, not only am I able to create a habit faster, like I don’t have to wait for a perfect 28 days, I also have something to always fall back onto on those days where I’m not having an ideal day. And that gives me the consistency I need to not only have that habit and what it’s going to provide for me, but also have the foundation to build on, so it gets higher and higher. And boy, I don’t even know how long I just talked HOW SOCIETY IMPACT OUR HABIT FORMATION  Kimberley: No, no, no, no. I have lots of questions. So, what does this look like? I love this idea – the baseline habit first. Let’s go way back. So, I think you’re referring to-- and let’s talk about what society tells us habits should look like. Now, I don’t actually have this correct, I think, but I think there’s a really famous book about habits that’s like one of the top Amazon selling that says, is it 60 days? What is the book actually saying? Monica: Well, I’ve read every book and habit formation, so I’m trying to think of which one it is. They probably say 21, 28, or 100 days. Sometimes they say more than that. But yes. Kimberley: Okay. So, listeners have probably read one or more of those as well, which is cool. So, let’s just acknowledge that that’s being said as the standard, but would you agree that that’s the standard for maybe people who don’t have a mental illness or people who have a kid who’s suffering? Would we agree that that’s for those incredibly lucky people or privileged people, or what would we say? Monica: That was exactly the word I was going to use. It is a great standard and it’s a privileged standard. And it doesn’t even have to be about demographics. We can look at privileges that way in terms of gender, socioeconomic and race, and all of that. Those are all factors of course. But I would just even think about, if you’ve read those books and you learned so much like I did years ago, and then you tried to implement them and then you failed, whether it’s sooner or later, then you qualify. You qualify as, that doesn’t work for me Now, consistency does still matter and we can talk about that, but it’s also not in the way we’ve been taught. So, there are seeds of truth that can apply to everyone in these methods that we’ve learned from and that have been so popular the past few years, but not so broadly prescribed to the general population. It’s not fair. It’s just, that’s the biggest place I actually start when I talk about habit formation, is helping people understand you’re not bad at habit formation, you’re not broken, these methods are broken for you. Kimberley: Okay. So, that’s really helpful. And I’ll tell a story about that. I actually want to hear examples for you. I like this. I’m a pretty highly functioning person personally, but I think what’s-- but I also have a chronic illness. And by default, I think I’m actually doing what you’re talking about, but you can actually correct me maybe. I’m actually here to learn here. I’m definitely loving it. So, I have the things I want to get done on the days I don’t feel well and that looks a whole lot different to the things that I expect myself to get done on the days where I do feel well. The base, you called it a baseline habit. It’s more about expectations, I think maybe. My expectations on when the days I don’t feel well are like the basics. Is that what you talk about? Is that what you’re meaning when you say baseline? HABITS SHOULD BE SUPPORTIVE  Monica: So, let’s break this down just a little bit. One, starting with the idea that habits should be supportive. That’s their purpose. They’re not balls and chains to our lives. They shouldn’t be about the prescriptions. Kimberley: It’s not a checklist. Monica: The checklist, no. That’s the shift I can see you’ve already made, is these habits are there to support me. They’re to support me on my best of days and my worst of days. So, with that first breakdown, then baselines come in to any to-me supportive habit, personally supportive habit, whether that’s exercise, meditation, journaling, even getting up early, deep breathing, stretching, whatever those are to you. These grounding stabilizing habits, having those baseline versions is what helps you have the consistency you need to show up on those days where your expectations need to match your reality better. Kimberley: Right. Well, that’s the point, isn’t it? Okay, so let’s talk about they have to be attached to the reality. So, what does that look like? Okay. We’ll call them-- well, how will we say it? “Hard days” and “easy days” or how will we-- Monica: I always say “best of days” and “worst of days,” but that’s really extreme language and I always preach against extremes, so maybe I shouldn’t be using that. But whatever you’re comfortable with. Kimberley: Hard days and not hard days. Let’s do that.  Monica: That sounds great. Because it doesn’t have to be like, you can only do the baseline if it’s the worst day ever. It’s just less-than-ideal day.  Kimberley: Okay. So, what does that look like?  Monica: Okay. So, let me give you a real-life example of a seasonal shift where my reality shifted, had to shift my expectations and the way I was showing up to the supportive habits. And this is more of a personal example. This summer, I was really sick with morning sickness, like really, really, really sick. And it went on for four months straight. And I’m still sick, but I’m better, way better. But during that time, I was still able to keep up my supportive habits, my most important ones, of exercise, of meditation, of journaling for my children, and of reading. But those supportive habits looked way different than my spring version of them before I got pregnant and my fall version now where I’m feeling better. I’ll take one of those examples.  My exercise was I used to go for an hour-long walk and then do a strength training exercise video or something like that. It just turned into-- my baseline version of that was 20 minutes of slowly walking around my block. I didn’t even go far in case I needed to go home sooner. But that still was supportive enough for me to have the time alone that I needed to be able to show up to other things.  Another example of this is, journaling for me typically looks like I have this journal for my kids that takes just a few minutes, and then I have a journal for myself that also just usually takes about five minutes. I decided journaling for myself could wait. So, I only had the two-minute version of journaling. And that still meant I would journal throughout all that time. And now what’s great about having those baselines is once the fall came around and I began to feel better, I was able to pick up my habits more in ways that match my reality.  So, baselines, like I said, they are our less of ideal, less than ideal versions of the habits that can-- they give you the flexibility you need day to day, but season to season. So, as part of that, an important thing for women and men who are listening to know-- sorry, I’m used to talking to women, so I apologize for that. But an important thing to know is that your baselines can grow.  Now my baselines even are different than the summer. They’re just a little bit more time intense or energy intensive than they were. Your highs get higher and your lows get higher too. Your baselines even grow. So, the less-than-ideal versions can grow too, and they have. Kimberley: That’s awesome. And it’s funny as you’re talking about that I’m thinking of my patients. If we can keep the black-and-white view of it, like you either do it perfectly or you don’t do it, there’s often this shift. It’s like, “Oh no, Kimberley, I did really great. I did all my exposures this week,” or “I didn’t do any of my exposures this week. It’s been a ‘hard week.’” But then there can be a shift to, “Oh, I had such a hard day, so instead of doing all my exposures, I just did six minutes.” And I think that’s what you’re saying in terms of it being a baseline habit of like, they gave themselves permission for it to not be perfect so that even on their “worst day,” they were still able to get in that treatment that they know is going to help them for that supportive work. Is that what you would think of it as? Monica: Mm-hmm. And I have a daughter who has generalized anxiety disorder. She’s on the spectrum as well. So, we have a lot of different things we need to keep up on in order for her to feel supported in her life. And even for her, we have baseline versions of these things. So, that way, in a day where she’s really struggling, we still have a way for her to feel supported without that all-or-nothing model, just taking off the table altogether. Kimberley: Right. So, what kind of shifts would one have to make to create a baseline habit plan? Would we call it a “baseline habit plan”?  Monica: Oh, yes. Kimberley: Is this an intentional plan? Tell me. SMALL, INTENTIONAL HABIT CHANGES Monica: So, first, you need to start with some small, internal habit changes, and that’s something we alluded to. Just pay attention to what your own habit story is. How did you grow up thinking habits should be formed? How do you currently think they should be formed? How do you view your capacity to form habits? And how are all of those things actually connected to you being taught habits in ways that actually are not right for you and that’s okay? Having that internal shift to one own, “Oh, I’ve been following the wrong model. So, I’m not broken and I’m capable of forming habits.” And also, the second shift there is just the supportive one. That’s the shift. It’s not about the shoulds and prescriptions.  Now the external shifts is, I mean, that’s where we could break down. I could talk to you for an hour and a half about that, but you mentioned a plan, and that is what I help people do, is you do need a plan. And what that looks like is actually way simpler than maybe Pinterest would show you about a habit plan. You start with casting a vision of an ideal habit that matches a need you have. So, you can think more generally first like, what’s the supportive habit I need? I need to wind down at night, so what does that look like for me? And you cast a vision of what could that entail. And then what you do is you take that version and you make sure, one, it’s supportive. So, it’s not about a should. You make sure it’s really small. So, it needs to be-- well, we talked about the baseline version of that, but small is like broken down. So, not a full routine yet. We’re just starting with the first step. Simple is your baseline version. That’s like, what is the simplest version of even the small habit that I can start with?  MEDITATION HABITS  For an example, meditation habits, maybe you have a whole nighttime routine ideally that you would like and you know what that looks like. But you’re going to start small with just the habit of meditation at night. And then from there, you’re going to start by making it simple, and that means what’s the baseline version of that? The easiest version of this habit is one deep breath. That’s my baseline for meditation. And that actually was one of my habits during the summer. I still meditated all summer, but it was usually just a deep breath or 10 at night as I was falling asleep and just trying to clear my mind.  So, we have supportive, small, simple. And the last thing here is specific, and specific means you don’t just say, “I’m going to have this new habit and I’m starting it tomorrow.” That’s not specific. You need to have it tied to an already existing habit and form what I call a when-then pairing. So, get clear about, okay, what already happens at nighttime that I can attach this new habit to? And they might be things-- actually, not even might. Most of the time, the existing habits are things you don’t know are habits because they are habits. Kimberley: Like brushing your teeth.  Monica: Yes. Dress in the bathroom, brushing your teeth, getting ready for bed. Or mine at night, honestly, a lot is just starting the dishwasher. Who knew? Oh, that’s a habit. I do that every night. So, it’s something like identifying what’s an existing habit around that time and attaching that supportive, small, simple habit to. That’s your habit plan. Kimberley: Interesting. So, for those who-- let’s say, I’m going to offer the listeners. Let’s say, most of the people who listen, their goal is to face a fear. That’s my crowd. That’s my people. We face our fears.  Monica: Love it.  Kimberley: So, let’s say we’re trying to increase our ability to face a fear every day. So, what you’re saying is, find a habit you already do and attach it to the time in which you do that. So, let’s say if your goal is to do an exposure – that’s often the biggest form of facing fear – in order to get it to be a daily thing that you’re consistent with, you would find a time of the day that you would be already doing something. Often I’ll say, as you drive to work, you could do it while you’re driving to work. Is that what you’re saying? Monica: Yeah. You’re nailing this. Exactly. Kimberley: Okay. What if you don’t want to do the habit, but you know you should because it’s supportive? Monica: So, this is going to-- you just did the biggest disclaimer there. If you truly love the result and the result is what you need in your life, shoulds can still be chosen. We don’t have to totally take shoulds off the table. And there’s a lot of that kind of talk, I think, out in the personal development world like, “No shoulds.” But honestly, I don’t feel like doing a lot of the things I need to do most days responsibility-wise. They are shoulds. But they are chosen because of the results or because of the benefit or what I know my responsibilities need me to do.  Shoulds can be chosen. So, if you’ve deeply truly chosen the should, which is the first step, then you have to get clear about your baseline. And ask yourself, is this actually a baseline? Because it needs to be so small and simple that you can do it even when you don’t want to. That’s how small and simple it needs to be. And once you do that, you get the momentum, which is a whole other topic. And you might organically be like, “Oh, I can do another deep breath, or I can spend another minute on this exposure,” and ride that wave if you feel like it. Kimberley: Right. And so, what I would offer to people if I’m going off of your example is, on your baseline day, on your hottest day, you could purposely have a thought you don’t want to have, and that’s it. That could be your baseline. Or another would be, let’s say there’s something you avoid. You could just do it for one minute, be around that thing you avoid for one minute. Is that what we’re looking for? Like one minute?  Monica: Exactly.  Kimberley: Good. Baby steps. Monica: Yes. And don’t underestimate the power of these baselines. One of the biggest powers is momentum that I mentioned, but the other biggest one that honestly to me might even be more weighty than the momentum is the confidence. It’s the identity shift and how you view your capacity to form habits, and your capacity to follow through with the things you say you’re going to do for yourself. Kimberley: Right. Isn’t that such a big piece of it? Like how many times have I-- let’s say a client has panic disorder and getting on the elevator is so painful because they’re so afraid of having a panic attack on an elevator, for example. And they’re standing at the doors and they’re saying, “I can’t. I just can’t do it.” That’s that confidence piece, right? Because we know we can. We could actually argue like, “No, you just take one foot and you put your foot on the elevator and then you put the other foot on the elevator and you’re in the elevator.” I think that that’s an interesting piece. And I talk a lot about motivation, but what you are bringing to the table, and correct me if I’m wrong, is there are many ways in which we could get motivation and momentum and confidence, but habits is another way. Monica: Yes. And for me, these baseline versions are, go to a bigger picture concept that I teach in my community of creating momentum instead of waiting for motivation. And it’s just physics. It really is just using physics here. But like you said, it’s the confidence piece. It’s the identity piece of being someone who can face fears, of someone who can show up for themselves, even on the hard days, on all these levels that we’ve talked about. It really helps. The identity piece too is really important. CHANGING HABITS WITH CHRONIC ILLNESS  Kimberley: Right. Okay. So, you’re having a hard day. You originally, when we were chatting, were talking about the dark days. We call them a dark day, a hard day, the worst day and all the things. On the days where that’s the hardest of days, the darkest of days, we usually have a lot of thoughts about our capacity to do hard things on the dark day. I know we touched on this, but what is the mindset shift to allowing yourself to be in a baseline day? I’ll give you a personal example. When I have POTS, when I’ve massively relapsed, the day before I could walk three miles, no problem. And on my relapse days, I am lucky if I can get around the block. Lucky. That is lucky. And so, what needs to happen there to give ourselves permission to-- because I’ve actually been the person who goes, “Nope, I refuse this to be a bad day. I am going for that damn three-mile walk,” and then all hell gets broken. It’s horrible. There’s consequences to be paid for pushing myself. So, is there a piece here about the permission? That’s the main last piece I want to ask. Monica: Oh yes. This alone takes a tremendous amount of courage. People, they think, “Oh, what? Habit probation takes courage?” Yeah, it does, especially if you’re doing it differently than the way that you’ve been taught. And this is where I would go back to something about proving yourself wrong. Doing something in a different way as a way to bolster your confidence and also your know-how, but to say like, “Maybe I can just try to see, I can just prove my old self wrong here. Does this still help? Is it still a way to show myself I care about myself?” on your really bad days where you’re recovering. Is this stretch still giving to your body? Is it still saying “I see you” and “I love you and I’m trying to help you and I know you’re trying to help me”? Maybe you can’t even do that block, but you can do a sense salutation or sorry, that’s the movement I keep doing over here, like what is she doing? That’s the movement I keep doing.  What I would help people do who are stuck in that all-or-nothing mindset, it’s so hard to let go of. Believe me, I know. Adopt the mindset of curiosity of what would it look like to try this out? Can I prove myself wrong? And I would also get a little logical and look back on your past and say, “Overall, how has this all-or-nothing model served me? Has it helped me more or hurt me?” For the high majority of people, high majority, it hurts more than helps.  Pay attention to the price you have paid in the past for the all and just acknowledge it takes real strength to do this. That’s one thing-- I had a client say this years ago. She said it takes the greatest of courage to do the smallest of things. And that’s where I would end. Just dare to have that courage to try the smallest of things and to try them again and again and again and see over time. You’ve got to give yourself that time to see how it can prove yourself wrong overall. And that these small ways we invest in ourselves, not only add up, but they count in the moment too. CREATING A HABIT PLAN  Kimberley: Right. So beautiful. I have one more tactical question before I let you go. So, would you have people have a breakdown of all the steps to create a habit plan? Meaning, let’s say the goal is to get-- a lot of people here are working at developing a good exposure plan. Let’s say we’re goaling towards 30 minutes a day. Would you say, “Okay, on the dark hard days, we do two minutes. So, that’s reserved for the dark hard days. And then from there, we’re going to work at two minutes, three minutes, four minutes, five minutes, six minutes. And then by the end of the month, we want to be at nine minutes.”? Would you break it down like that or is that actually the opposite of the plan here that you’re trying to go for in terms of a supportive plan? Monica: So, the bigger question I believe you’re asking is, how do we build, do it strategically or what does that look like? I would say that depends on what the habit is and the purpose of the habit. So, if this is more of like a therapy-based habit that you’ve been working on with clients, I would say it might be helpful to have that game plan. Perhaps not based on a certain time, but more about how consistently they’re able to perform the baseline version, and from there have the foundation they need to build.  In general, though, for most habits, it goes two ways. You can either maximize or add. You can do longer amounts of the habit or more intensity, that’s maximizing, or you can add. That means you add another step to the bigger routine you want. And I find that can go two directions. One, strategically, you can think like, okay, this is my game plan. Maybe I don’t have an exact deadline, like in two weeks. It’s more organic feeling. It’s more intuitive. I feel strong enough. I feel like I’m in momentum. I feel like I have the structure I need to add or to maximize. But yeah, it still can be done strategically. But most of the time, it just happens organically. You just are able to-- that baseline rises, like we talked about. And as a baseline rises, that means you tend to have more like normal days in between days where you can do a step or two above naturally and organically.  So, that depends. But ultimately, I think, have trust in yourself to know what you need for a specific habit. Do I need this to be strategic or am I okay to do this more intuitively and organically? But no matter what, starting with the ideal in mind is what gives you the target that you are headed towards. Kimberley: Right. And that you can, any day, even if you’re on your way up to the strategic plan, you can rely on your base plan if needed. That’s your backup. Monica: Always, always. And even over time, as your baselines rise, you still have that under baseline you can always fall back to. If seasons change, your life change, circumstances change, your health changes, those are always there for you. Kimberley: Right. Love it. All right. Tell us where we can hear more about you. Monica: Well, I am a podcaster on About Progress. We’re a personal development show. We don’t just talk about habits there. We talk about a lot of things. And I’d love for them to come and listen. And I do have a course on habit formation and it’s for women. I know there are men listening here, but it’s primarily for those who identify as women because of the bigger thing I have to teach about why habits spell in particular for women. So, it’s called the Sticky Habit Method, and they can go check that out at aboutprogress.com/stickyhabitmethod. And it says sticky habit because you form habits that stick. Kimberley: Nice. I love it. Oh my gosh, it’s so wonderful to have you. Like I said, your episode about perfectionism that we’ve done is a really high-rated episode. If you want to go back and listen to that, that would be cool too. Yeah, absolutely.  Monica: That’s really the heart of all my work, including habit formation. Who knew I would even get into habits, but we’re here. Kimberley: I love it. I love it. Thank you so much for coming on. I’ve loved listening. I’ve been the student today as well, so that was awesome.  Monica: I love that. Thank you. Kimberley: My pleasure. Thank you so much. LINKS:  PODCAST http://aboutprogress.com/podcast STICKY HABIT METHOD https://www.workinprogressacademy.co/sticky-habit-method FREE HABIT CLASS FOR WOMEN https://workinprogressacademy.mykajabi.com/women-habits-class

In this podcast: Laura Ryan tells her story of overcoming superstitious Obsessions  How to manage Whack-a-mole obsessions How her family helped to support her as she overcame Superstitious OCD  How to get through the hard OCD days Perfectionism and Exposure & Response Prevention Links To Things We Talk About: ERP School: https://www.cbtschool.com/erp-school-lp Episode Sponsor: This episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit is brought to you by CBTschool.com.  CBTschool.com is a psychoeducation platform that provides courses and other online resources for people with anxiety, OCD, and Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors.  Go to cbtschool.com to learn more. Spread the love! Everyone needs tools for anxiety...If you like Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast, visit YOUR ANXIETY TOOLKIT PODCAST to subscribe free and you'll never miss an episode. And if you really like Your Anxiety Toolkit, I'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two). EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION Kimberley Quinlan: Well, welcome, Laura. I am so excited to hear your story today about Overcoming Superstitious Obsessions. Thank you for coming on the show. Laura Ryan: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Kimberley Quinlan:  Yeah, so it's wonderful. I love the stories when I accidentally meet people online, and then we have this cool story that's together, but we're not like not together at all. So I love hearing your story for the first time today, and I love that. I've been a small small part of that journey for you.  Tell me a little about you and your backstory in, you know, the area of recovery. Laura Ryan:  Yeah. So I definitely would have had OCD my whole life, but it wasn't until I was about 17 or 18 years old that I just stumbled across something on the Internet where I was like Oh yeah, that sounds like me. I've got OCD, but it didn't. It wasn't stopping me from doing anything at that point. So I just ignored it and went on. I had three Uni degrees under my belt. I was working at a publisher and freelancing as a book editor, and then Laura Ryan:  my family had some health issues, and my sister as well, had some relationship issues, and I don't think I knew what to do with the stress. Um, and OCD crept up. So gradually, it was undetectable, and then sudd,  I found myself at age 22 with crippling compulsions. OVERCOMING SUPERSTITIOUS OBSESSIONS AND BREATH-HOLDING COMPULSIONS Laura Ryan:  It was nothing short of torture. It was horrific. I was so ill with OCD that I would come home from a day at work, and I wouldn't even remember the day because I'd spent the whole day in fight or flight. And I had mental sort of thought replacement and breath-holding compulsions. So it was completely invisible to people around me, but it was able to kind of have control over me for the whole day. Like from the second, I woke up to the second. I went to sleep. When I eventually saw a doctor, the psychiatrist was like, Oh, and how often are you affected by these thoughts? And I just didn't understand the question because I was like, Well, every few seconds, I guess. Laura Ryan:  Yeah, so they were weird. Compulsions, like a lot of Shame around them as well because they were all kind of magical thinking superstitious. Like there was no logical link. They were all like, I'm holding my breath because I think I will magically give someone a disease if I breathe out while looking at them, or Yeah, just weird. We had rules that made absolutely no sense. Laura Ryan:  which, Also. yeah, it impacted my self-esteem because I've always thought of myself as a Logical person, but these just made no sense. Laura Ryan:  yeah, I also became stick thin because if I, and it wasn't even anything to do with the food, it was just if you eat this food, the intrusive thought will come true. And I, it just wasn't worth their Stress of eating. and then, there was a point where Laura Ryan:  I would have conflicting compulsions, so OCD would kind of be like if you do this thing or if you don't do this thing, the intrusive thought will come true, and then I would just stand there paralyzed Like unable to do anything. I don't like to think how long I've spent just standing still, like the pervasive slowness, I think it's called was just Yes, stopped me from. Doing anything? Some nights it would have taken more than an hour to get to bed. It was just I had to touch wood or Rearrange things for so long before I was able to get to sleep. yeah, so I'd been a really 00:05:00 Laura Ryan:  Pleasant child and teenager big people pleaser perfectionist type person, and then all of a sudden I was this irritable, distracted young adult, and I didn't like who I was, and no one in my family knew what was going on with me. Um, and yeah, I was eventually unable to work, and I quit my job. And I was too anxious to Google things. So I looked up OCD on my podcast app, and that was when I found you were a guest on the mental illness happy hour, I think, and you played this game of one-up together, and it was like, It was incredible. It was like it was. Yeah, it was the first time I had Laura Ryan:  heard of ERP and OCD. Laura Ryan: Yeah. Sorry, it was the first time I'd heard of ERP and Anxiety treatment that wasn't just meditation or gratitude, which are helpful. But sometimes, when you're in that dark place, the only thing that can get to you. It is something dark itself but also brings that humor as well. I think it is just the most powerful tool you can have when you're there. Then I started looking up Absolutely everything Kimberley Quinlan. I was absolutely your number one fan. You say you had a small part in my story. You had a huge, huge part in my story. Because I was way too unwell to drive. There was no way I would go to my GP and get a mental health care referral. I was not going anywhere near Medical Center. And barely making it out of the house. So, when I found your ERP school to do online, it was nothing short of life-saving. I was able to get enough to go to the GP then and get a referral to see a psychologist. Laura Ryan:  Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: It makes me want to cry, it does. And when can I ask a couple of questions about that when you said There's no way you would have gone to the GP because of the obsessions that held you back or just the shame of it? What was there? Another reason that that was such a huge step for you? SUPERSTITIOUS OBSESSIONS & SYMPTOMS Laura Ryan:  It was mainly the superstitious obsessions. If I go there, I'll contract a disease or give someone a disease. Not even in a contaminated way. Just like a magical way. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm, yeah, yeah, it's funny. I don't know when I'm helping people because you just don't know what you know. Just for those who are listening, the Mental illness happy hour is an amazing podcast, and then the host had no idea what OCD was. And so, we did play a game of one up, which is where we kind of, he said something scary. And then I went up. It was something even scarier and even more gruesome and horrible. Was that something that you started practicing on your own just from that episode? Or did you take up his school to follow the whole process? Laura Ryan: A bit of both. I kind of took the one up and… Kimberley Quinlan:  Inflecting. Laura Ryan: I ran because I think it just helped me. so much immediately, and then ERP school was able to lead me through in a more systematic way. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: Okay. Amazing. Oh, I'm so happy that I could be there. It's not so cool. Laura Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. Kimberley Quinlan: It's so cool. Kimberley Quinlan: Especially you're my Aussie friend too. That just brings me so much joy. So as you and I emailed in preparation for this,  you beautifully and eloquently shared some of the pieces. I would love to hear from you if you spoke briefly about how your OCD evolved. Would you be willing to share a little bit about what that looked like for you? Laura Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. Laura Ryan: I had every kind of OCD, so as soon as I started doing ERP, OCD came back with a vengeance with some new topic and… 00:10:00 Laura Ryan: as I think a lot of OCD sufferers know, it can be especially difficult, when a new topic shows up because you don't know what's happening you are unfamiliar with. the sorts of thoughts it's going to throw you, and you don't know how to fight back yet. I remember when it initially switched from this sort of magical thinking superstition to moral OCD.  Laura Ryan: Hit and run OCD, and I've heard stories about OCD sufferers turning themselves in for crimes they didn't commit, and that was absolutely the kind of thing I felt like doing at that point. I was like Laura Ryan:   Although usually, I would panic when I was driving, I would constantly be checking in my rearview mirror, recycling, back driving around, again and again, to make sure I hadn't hidden anyone and then, Laura Ryan:  Yeah, I think it just Really. OCD will fight back. Laura Ryan:  Yeah, absolutely. MANAGING WHACK-A-MOLE OBSESSIONS Kimberley Quinlan: that must have been pretty terrifying for you, though, or demoralizing for you for it to be sort of wack-a-moleing. Whack-a-mole obsessions are when your obsessions are changing from one obsession to another.  Your obsessions will be one up and one down. Switching between obsessions each day or even hour. How did you handle that? Laura Ryan:  um, Laura Ryan:  I think, just I think the main thing was staying in touch with the online community and because Every thought you've had, no matter how crazy it is. Someone else has had it, and someone else has probably done a compulsion. That's Like as, or more embarrassing, is something you've done. Laura Ryan:  Yeah, I always think when I have a thought I met someone else's had this, and then I'll go on like OCD Reddit and find that they have. Kimberley Quinlan:  Right. Absolutely. So so, that's how it evolved. Wait, you shared. Also, Where are you now? Like what does life look like for you now? Having gone through and know, you'd said You'd moved on to getting treatment. What's life like for you Now? What does recovery look like for you? Laura Ryan: So, yeah, I spent the better part of two years just really taking the time to get better. I was doing bits of freelance work, but it shouldn't have been because it was taking me way too long. I wish I'd just given myself permission to rest properly. and I don't know whether this was a part of moral OCD or whether I like to think it's just part of who I am. Still, I didn't want to go back into publishing because I Um felt like I wanted to do a job helping other people, and I especially wanted to give back to the healthcare world. Kimberley Quinlan: It. Laura Ryan: That helped me so much. When I went, I went to the hospital to do an inpatient OCD program. And the people working in the program were obviously psychologists, psychiatrists, and occupational therapists. And so, I wanted to do a course in OT. But Laura Ryan:  Then I saw speech-language, pathology, and I've been doing that course for the last two years, and I'm just about to graduate. So, Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan:  Wow, that's so cool. Does OCD have something to say about you returning to school for that? Like, how did it How did your OCD handle that decision? Laura Ryan: Oh my gosh, it was so. mad at me for picking something that I needed to do hospital placements to complete. Especially being speech-language. I think they called in America speech-language therapists, in hospitals, at least in Australia, there, they see the people with the Like worst neurodegenerative or the scariest diseases, or they've just had a stroke. Like, really, the most triggering things I could have thought of at the start of my journey. And yeah, and like, you have to like to touch them and would never ever have thought that I could have done this a couple of years ago. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. In ERP school, we talk about your hierarchy, right? Like it would have been a 10 out of 10. I'm guessing you're like doing 10 out of 10… Laura Ryan: Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: it's incredible of all the careers; you picked like your 10 out of 10. That's incredible. Right. Yeah. So was that like a decision? Like I'm doing it as an exposure, or is it just like your values led you there to get to that place? Laura Ryan:  It was definitely my values and took me. And my therapist, a lot of coaching to get me through. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan:  Wow, it's so cool. It's so cool. It's like perfect, right? Because it's so often, I hear of people who have the career that they wanted, and their OCB gets in the way, right? You know, there he'll have health anxiety in there, and us or they have their teacher, but they have thoughts of, or pedophilia obsessions and impacts their work. Like you, you went the other direction where you moved into the career after your treatment which is just so cool. I love that you did that. So one thing you shared, Was what you find hard, and I love that you included that piece in what you find hard. So, would you be willing to share, What do you find hard? We talk about It's a beautiful day to do hard things, but What is it? It's okay that things are still hard. What do you find still hard? Laura Ryan: Yeah, I find it now that I have so much functionality back compared to where I was not leaving the house to pretty much do everything that I want and need to, I find it hard to find the motivation to do ERP to kick those last mental compulsions, and those things that kind of still follow me around all day. Yeah, I think. I think now it's less about functionality and now more about doing it to get back that quality of life. Laura Ryan:  which, yeah, I think I often find really hard to  it's much easier to. When you're doing ERP to reason with yourself, oh, I deserve to be able to leave the house and go to the shops. And so that's why I'm doing this thing that feels so awful. But when you're just saying, “Oh, I'm doing this now just because I want to be happy.” It's a lot harder to reason with myself Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, it's like you said at the beginning and I've heard that many times that if it's not impeding in your functioning, it is easier to sweep it under the rug and cope and not address the problem. And I've heard that many times. So I think that's a really valid point of, you know, a lot of people will say like there's a really strong. Why are they doing the exposures? There's not a strong why it's hard to do it. How are you learning or starting to practice tools to manage what's worked for you? And what hasn't Laura Ryan:  'm getting a lot better at being less of a people pleaser and getting better at not putting everyone else before myself filling up my own cup so that I have some to give to everyone else. Yeah, I'm it is hard, but I'm definitely getting better at doing things because Laura Ryan:  Yeah, if I give myself that, Quality of life. I can be. Even at least I can be if not for me, I can be there better for my family and friends. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Yeah. Is there you know, if you were to work? I mean, I'm assuming people listening are having similar struggles. Can you walk me through moment to moment how you muster up motivation? Or maybe it's a different experience to get yourself to do. Those exposures? Like, what do their steps involve? Or how do you get to that place? MOTIVATION FOR ERP 00:20:00 Laura Ryan: Yeah, one of my favorite tools is just before I do anything. So if I'm if I've just driven in the car to go somewhere, I will take one minute before I get out of the car, I will take one minute. and just Kind of have a word with myself and OCD, and I'll be like, right, what's OCD? You're going to throw at me. It's going to say this, and then what will I do? I'm going to do this, and then how's OCD going to push back? And then what am I going to do? Like just having a game plan before you do. Kimberley Quinlan: If? Laura Ryan: Functional things for those mental compulsions. Laura Ryan:  I find it's a really Laura Ryan:  it's really helpful for me because I don't have to kind of set aside time and find that motivation to do it. I can just kind of plan and make ERP tasks out of, going to the shops or seeing a friend or  things like that. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, that's cool. It's, I think of it, like Olympians or, you know, high-performance athletes as they, they do that same thing. They're high performing, you know, the high performers there, they're rehearsing. You know the strategy to get through that really hard moment. It sounds like you're doing something similar there, which is really cool. I'm fascinated by that, sports psychology piece of it, right? I think that's so cool. All right, you had mentioned, which I thought was fascinating, what OCD gave you. Now, this is sort of a controversial topic… Kimberley Quinlan:  Okay. So one of the things that you wrote as we were emailing was what OCD gave you right, which I thought was so fascinating because usually, we hear stories are like, I hate OCD, and it's the worst thing ever. And I hate everything about it, and we even know there's some controversy of some people who have sort of misused OCD. I loved what you had to say. So, would you share it? What were your thoughts regarding what OCD gave you? Laura Ryan:  Yeah, I definitely don't get me wrong. I think OCD is a very unique form of torture, I don't think it's. Yeah, it's horrible. It's absolutely. Yeah, I think. When you said it was one of their Top 10 Most debilitating disorders, you can have either physical or mental. Absolutely. I think it's just Awful. But I think going through treatment gave me this really, really, Laura Ryan:  I was able to see these incredible sides to my family and friends. they were just so, Incredible at every turn and so accepting of something that's really hard to understand. Laura Ryan:  and, Yeah, it's also just constant reminders to follow my values. Like if, if you're having a hard day with OCD, the only thing you can use is to get yourself out of that. is to be like, okay, well, What am I doing? What am I valuing? And the treatment is kind of mindfulness and coming back to Laura Ryan:  What's important? So yeah, I think I'm I'm quite lucky to have those. those treatment principles kind of under my belt because, I think everyone can use them because they're just 00:25:00 Laura Ryan:  Yeah, that's how you have a better life. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, that's true. It's so true. And you, you talked about your you had sort of a shift in motivation to sort of take care of your health. Was there a shift in that for you? Once you started going through OCD treatment? That was when further beyond just your mental health, Laura Ryan:  yeah, it was it kind of turned into adding in. Meditation moving my body a lot. Laura Ryan:  Yeah, I I remember going down this because I had access to my uni like academic journal database, and I am early on. I went into a lot of obvious research about ERP and OCD. But also SSRIs and exercise. Laura Ryan:  and I think people found Or some people. And at least for me, I find Like, I'm staying on the SSRIs, but exercise is. As effective for me as those. So if I Do them both. It's like supercharges it so good. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. The research backs that doesn't it? So that's so good. Laura Ryan:  Yeah. HOW TO GET THROUGH THE HARD OCD DAYS Kimberley Quinlan: That's so good. All right, the last thing I question I have for you it's just makes me giggle and smile and feel all good. Inside is tell me a little bit about what gets you through the hard things because that's what this is all about, right? That's what our whole message is. What are some of the things that get you through the hard things and the hard days? Laura Ryan:  And definitely remembering my sense of humor. And Kind of encouraging the people around you. Because I'm not as. I'm not super comfortable yet telling my family and friends to You know, help me with exposure tasks, but if you can tell them, they help me laugh about these things. They'll They can people can do that, people know how to, and they want to, and it's really good. Kimberley Quinlan:  Yeah. Laura Ryan:  Yeah, also, if you go on the go on Reddit and look up Reddit OCD memes,  it's the best. It's so good. It's like and John Hershfield's means they're so good, and they Laura Ryan: Again they like they get into these really dark awful themes but then we're laughing at them and I think that's just the fastest way to get power over OCD. Kimberley Quinlan:  Yeah. Laura Ryan: um, Yeah,… Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Changes the game. Laura Ryan: it's really cool. Definitely. Kimberley Quinlan: Doesn't it right when you find? Yeah, it really really does. And you did talk about the game plan Already. Laura Ryan:  Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: You mentioned something called a panic inventory. Do you want to share a little bit about what that is? Laura Ryan:  Yeah, so I hope it's not a kind of reassurance knowing that I can go back and check it, but I never do. And so when I have an intrusive thought, I just write it down in the notes of my phone and it's stops me from doing things like, checking the police news or asking for reassurance, or like, if I have the thought written down, and it's there, and I can think Laura, you can come back to it like it's there. It's not going anywhere. You can come back to it tomorrow or next week, or even just if you can hold off on doing this compulsion for an hour, the thought will still be there. You can still Laura Ryan:  Address it. If it still feels urgent, then and yeah, some of them only last a few minutes, some of them last a few days. But I've never come back to a thought a week later still panicking. Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm, that's cool. It's funny, it makes me think about as With young children, when we're treating young children with OCD, we talk about their OCD box, and they imagine putting their thought up in the box and they leave the box there, not to kind of make the thoughts go away. But just like it's there, you can bring it with you. The box is always with you and… Laura Ryan: Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: we're just not going to let it be there, and we're gonna go about our lives. Anyway, so does it sound like that for you? Is that kind of mindset there? yeah, so that I love that… 00:30:00 Laura Ryan:  Yeah, absolutely. Kimberley Quinlan: because what you're really doing is you're saying I'm willing to let the thought come with me. And I'm gonna be uncertain about it and sort of staying very present. Like, we'll worry about it later, kind of like not that you're planning to worry about it later but she'll deal with it when it needs to be dealt with which is sounds like never Really okay. Laura Ryan: Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: I love that. I love that. Yeah, okay, cool. Kimberley Quinlan:  Anything else that you found to be helpful in getting you to where you are today in this really cool story? PERFECTIONISM AND EXPOSURE & RESPONSE PREVENTION (ERP) Laura Ryan: Yeah, definitely. I think the Perfectionistic side of me thought that every ERP exposure had to be. 10 out of 10. Full-blown panic attack level, but it's At least for me it's only gonna work for insofar as I'm willing to actually feel what it brings up. So Laura Ryan: I think they the best exposures for me are the ones that just feel mildly uncomfortable and even to the point where I'm sitting there and I'm like, Oh, am I, Even bothered by this. Like, it's sometimes I feel like I'm lying or… Kimberley Quinlan:  Mmm. Laura Ryan: Or I don't have OCD or yeah, I think those tiny. Yeah. Like a hundred. Many exposures are way way better than one, one giant one, at least for me. Kimberley Quinlan: Wow. That's cool. I'm so glad you brought that up, and because that is actually, interestingly, I'll share with you when I'm supervising my staff. That's probably one of the biggest questions that my staff come with of like, my client seems to be wanting to do these crazy high hard explosions and it feels like it's sort of compulsive in that they're doing these exposures. Laura Ryan:  Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: And I think you're speaking to this really important topic, which is the exposure should Simulate the fear and the uncertainty And so you're saying, I think. But correct me if I'm wrong Doing a small exposure actually simulates in brings on other obsessions and fears along the way. So that's how you're doing your exposures. That's so cool. Is that correct? Laura Ryan: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Kimberley Quinlan:  Yeah, wow. And we say Any happy school. We talk about doing a b minus effort, right? Like not doing it perfectly and sometimes perfect. You know, purposely making an exposure imperfect has, was that a trigger for you? As you went through this process of trying to make the exposures perfect? Yeah. Laura Ryan: Yeah. Absolutely. I remember, I came to my first session with my psychologists, like, with a printed out, hierarchy of like this. Yeah. Everything was scored perfectly and I was ready to work from. Yeah. Number one, to number 10 in and cool. According to the research, we should be done in 12 weeks and then I'll say See you later. That was really… Kimberley Quinlan: You like my schedule,… Laura Ryan: no, it works. Kimberley Quinlan: It says right here. This is how dispersed to go. Right, right. Okay. And it didn't work out that way. No, no that would have been hard to take. Laura Ryan:  Yeah. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Yeah, I have loved hearing your story. I'm so grateful that we got to meet in person and connect. You know, it's sort of a full circle moment for me and I hope you know that you should be so proud of the work you've done and how far you've come. Laura Ryan: Thank you so much. Yeah, I can't believe I'm talking to you. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. I know,… Laura Ryan: Yeah, it's awesome. Kimberley Quinlan: I'm so happy to have you on the show, I really? And that's again, I say it all the time, like it just to know that. That. People can make small but very mighty steps on their own. Is the whole mission here,… Laura Ryan:  Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: right? Is that just even if it's the first step, I'm so happy if that's the step that people take. So I'm so grateful for you for sharing your story.Laura Ryan:  Thank you so much for having me.

SUMMARY:  How to include family members in ocd treatment Supporting siblings during ocd treatment  How to apply the “be seen” model Ocd family therapy: including siblings as “assistant coaches”  Developing empathy during ocd treatment Links To Things I Talk About: ERP School https://peaceofmind.com/for-siblings/ OCD Stories (with Jessica Serber) https://theocdstories.com/episode/dr-michelle-witkin-siblings-and-ocd/ https://www.amazon.com/When-Family-Member-Has-Obsessive-Compulsive/dp/1626252467 When a Family Member has OCD https://www.anxioustoddlers.com/psp-050-explaining-ocd/#.Y2Lc2S1h2Tc Krista’s webpage Instagram: @anxiouslybalanced Episode Sponsor:This episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit is brought to you by CBTschool.com.  CBTschool.com is a psychoeducation platform that provides courses and other online resources for people with anxiety, OCD, and Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors.  Go to cbtschool.com to learn more. Spread the love! Everyone needs tools for anxiety...If you like Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast, visit YOUR ANXIETY TOOLKIT PODCAST to subscribe free and you'll never miss an episode. And if you really like Your Anxiety Toolkit, I'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two). EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION Kimberley Quinlan: Well, welcome Krista Reid. I am so excited to number one connect with you, but to talk about a topic that I don't talk a lot about which is something that I'm excited to really talk about with you today. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Yes, thank you so much for having me. Kimberley Quinlan: So welcome. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: I'm excited. Kimberley Quinlan:  Yeah. Look at you. You're all the people who don't see, you're like everything's bright and it's so happy. It makes me so joyful just to see you. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Thank you, anybody. That has met me. Will get it. I'm a very colorful person. Thank you. Kimberley Quinlan: I love that that we need more of you in the world. Kimberley Quinlan: I really feel Yeah, good thing. I made children that sort of created more of me, right? That's the best I can do. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: I we need more of you. A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  You go. There you go. Kimberley Quinlan: All right, let's talk about supportive siblings. Let's talk about… A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  Yeah. SIBLINGS AND OCD Kimberley Quinlan: how the family can play a role in recovery. I kind of want you to take the lead here and tell me everything, you know. So tell me a little bit about why this subject is important to you and how you used it in clinical and in the field of OCD. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Yeah, absolutely. And so I'll give you just a little bit of background. I always have been interested in sibling dynamics, and in fact, when I was in grad school completing my thesis, I even consulted the director of the program. I said, Are there any theories about siblings? And he's like, well, you know, there's the one by Alf or Alfred Adler on birth order. But really outside of that, no and that has just always been so entirely profound. Because when we think about family work, if you're looking at family theories, if you're looking at different types of family interventions and models, a lot of them really focus on parent child. And when you're dealing specifically with a child who has an, I'll go into the physical medical side as well, because I don't think this is exclusively just OCD or just mental illness. Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: when we're seeing that a lot of times, the model is fixated on the child with the medical issue and the parent And what I was finding was that siblings. They kind of get othered In this. It's full process and the definition of other. It is essentially, you know, being excluded from meetings being excluded from family sessions being excluded in some way, shape or form. Now I could see how potential listeners will say, Well, isn't it that child with the OCD the child with the medical issues othered Yes, I'm not debating that at all, I'm saying, primarily within the family unit, that the sibling themselves can get very other and siblings struggle when their sibling has a disorder. You… Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: they can struggle emotionally, they can struggle behaviorally. You know, just looking at the construct of OCD, they could struggle with the with the grief. Of their sibling having OCD, the moods that may come with the disorder. And oftentimes, this can lead to resentment within the sibling relationship, or even guilt or shame. And I I have siblings, and I think this potentially might be even where a lot of my work is very important because I am very close to my siblings. I am super close. Like I I feel like I'm very fortunate. I have, I have amazing relationships with my siblings and so it absolutely breaks my heart when you see a child. A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  Who who has this? Some type of distance within their sibling relationship either because they themselves have the disorder or their sibling has the disorder. And so, I started finding different ways to incorporate siblings and to the therapeutic model. I'm really big into family work. I don't understand how special when you're working pediatrics pediatrics. And that's primarily what I'm going to focus on today is a pediatric work. I don't understand how when you're working with pediatrics? How you you can't have the family involved? To me, that doesn't make any sense because we're seeing, especially in the outpatient world, we're seeing these kids an hour a week, so tops four hours a month. Pretty sure there with their families, a lot more than just four hours a month. and then thinking about, A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  The siblings. What can we do to make them feel like they're not being other? How can they also not be parentified? Because that's sometimes happens within the disorder. World is the siblings may feel that they have to have some type of responsibility for their siblings medical issues. And that is Absolutely. I don't want any sibling to have that. I want them to have a childhood. I want them to be kids, but how can we incorporate them without parentifying them and without othering them and also bringing in the family as a whole and tackling this beast together whether that's OCD or whatever? That beast might be. 00:05:00 Kimberley Quinlan: That's so interesting because as someone who treats OCD but also treats eating disorders, I have found that, you know, you'll treat the one child who has the primary disorder. We get them better. And then a year or two later, the other kid that didn't have the the diagnosis starts to suffer and all this emotion comes out and they start to really acknowledge how painful it was for them and and it all comes out later. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Okay. Kimberley Quinlan: But I know that there are other cases where it comes out during and you've got multiple things happening at once. So, that is why I think this is so important is Kimberley Quinlan: In my early days of treating you would be like, no, that the siblings. Fine. Look at how well they're doing. They're they're doing well in school and it's quite a miracle,… A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  Yeah. INCLUDING THE WHOLE FAMILY IN OCD TREATMENT Kimberley Quinlan: isn't it? But then Yeah, it all comes out, right? It all comes out. So I love that you're talking about this, right? So you you And number number one, before we move on. Is this true of not just siblings, Would we say? This is true of partners of OCD or eating disorders or depression as well. Like Does this spread to that or… A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Yeah. I I agree a hundred percent,… Kimberley Quinlan: What are your thoughts? A Peaceful Balance Wichita: you know, this, I hate to call it curriculum because that makes it sound so sterile. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Process I guess I'll call it and I feel that this process is and as as you know aforementioned it's not just about OCD. I can see this being across the board for any medical issue. Absolutely. It could be for Let's a roommate. Let's not even like let's let's take out the family part. Kimberley Quinlan: um, And here. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: You know what, working with a college. I college student, who has a roommate that, maybe they're pretty close with. Absolutely. I if they're willing to bring that person in, How can we incorporate them? Because doesn't that client win? That's what we're wanting… Kimberley Quinlan:  Yeah. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: because we know that no matter what your medical diagnosis might be relationships, struggle, and… Kimberley Quinlan:  Mm-hmm. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: that absolute last thing I would wish upon anybody. Kimberley Quinlan: yeah, I'm even thinking of me as someone with a chronic illness On how I think it even like you said it stretches to medical to like that. You know, I know I look back until tell a quick story. I look back to when I was really sick and really sick. And I even remember seeing my children, Starting to play a parental role on me. Like, What do you need today? Mom, instead of like, No, I'm supposed to be asking you that Hun. Like, I think that it's,… A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: it can spread. So I I think that this is that's again why? I think this is so important. So I'm gonna skip to my main sort of questions here. Now, it's like you talk about what is called a coach Like an OCD coach. I know I've watched one of your presentations like Do you want to share with us What this model may look like? BE SEEN MODEL A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Yeah. Absolutely. So before I even talk about the OCD coach, because that's not like, I'm not reinventing the wheel, this isn't something that I think a lot of your listeners are going to say, Oh like that's that's a new thing. No, it's not a new thing especially when working pediatrics. That's a pretty common term because that's what we really want these parents, or caretakers to be of these kids. As we want them, to be able to learn how to do what we are doing with their kids. So they don't have to be in therapy forever. So, I developed this process and I call it BE SEEN  seen as an acronym, because why not us medical professionals. We love our acronyms. So let's make another acronym. And also it's really easy to just to remember Kimberley Quinlan:  Right. A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  And I chose this specific, acronym one. It fits the letters, really nicely of what I was hoping to explain throughout this process but also for a couple different reasons. One I have OCD and I struggled as a child and adolescent and one of the primary factors in my own recovery, that was so A profound was I realized I did not want to be seen. I did not want people to note because I felt I felt bad, You know that shame just smothers you like a blanket and it just it it was embarrassing. And then I was thinking about it from the other side of siblings. 00:10:00 A Peaceful Balance Wichita: When you have a child who has a chronic illness, you think about how often, are they going into doctors appointments? How often are they going into whatever type of treatment facility? They may they may be utilizing. The sibling is often and they can get hidden. They can get hidden. And if I in fact, I think it was Chris Baer who did unstuck who actually called the sibling, the forgotten child. and I,… Kimberley Quinlan: Such a crisp, man. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: I absolutely, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get to how that whole thing. Actually, kind of birthed this idea here in a bit. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: But thinking about just how profound it could be for the sibling to be seen. And as I mentioned before,… Kimberley Quinlan:  Hmm. SUPPORTING SIBLINGS DURING OCD TREATMENT  A Peaceful Balance Wichita: I don't want them to be responsible for their siblings treatment. That is so incredibly inappropriate. And I want them to have a childhood, but I also want them to participate and have a relationship with their sibling. So when I think of an OCD coach essentially, how I define an OCD coach, is going to be that's going to be the adult figure. So that is going to be the person that is going to take the the child to therapy to treatments. That's going to be the main one, utilizing, exposure and response prevention therapy. They're going to be kind of the one overhead and I like using the word coach. A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  Because one, I really like sports and I just think that there's something kind of neat about a coach because a coach is going to be, they're gonna be tough. They're gonna be fair. And at the end of the day, all they want is for you to win. I just think that's such a cool concept and when you tell that to a parent, a parent, a lot of times can say, Okay, so I get that because I could say, I want you to be the parent to the kid but also think about a coach because when you have your child on a team, OCD FAMILY THERAPY: INCLUDING SIBLINGS AS “ASSISTANT COACHES”  A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  In OCD Family Therapy, that coach is going to be tough. And I'm not trying to take the emotions out at all because we know coaches can be incredibly empathetic. The coaches are probably going to push your child a little bit more than you would put child. And so putting yourself into that role and thinking about this is for a win, I know my child might be hurting, I know my child because they're doing the exposures because you're not allowing them to have the OCD accommodated, you're pushing them to grow. So, Putting yourself into the coaches role versus only solely. The parents' role can be such a powerful metaphor for parents and I just really, really love that. So when I'm looking at the siblings, I call those the assistant coaches, those are the ones that can assist and help out. The players. A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  So the child that is in OCD  therapy or in treatment or whatever necessarily it might be and so be seen. So each letter of scene represents something s is supportive. How can you support the child? And I've actually created Worksheets, that are age appropriate for the sibling and the child with OCD, which again, it really could be any kind of medical thing because the acronym really doesn't exclusively cover OCD. They can do this together and so s is supportive finding different ways to support and A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  With the worksheets that I've developed with ages five to 10. I just love this. It's it's an art activity and the kids together get to draw them slaying. I mean I'm using quotation marks slaying the OCD monster or making a can of like OCD away spray and so it's just a really, really cute. A activity to do and again because it's ages five to ten, that's such a level of mastery and explorative and, you know, they, they like to draw in color and play at that time. So, even if their sibling with OCD, it's a lot older. Think about what an amazing bonding experience that could be, you have a five year old sibling, and a 12 year old with OCD, that's a pretty cool, a situation able to put those two together to talk about it. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Because then that five year old. I mean, how empowering and beautiful that is is like, okay, so you know, sibling older sibling, I'm going to draw a can of a way spray, and this is what it's going to do, and it's gonna get it's gonna help get rid of this and this. And we know that children think so highly a metaphors. That, that could be such a really cool way for them to interpret that. And to be able to understand that because we also don't want little kids to well, it's not, we don't want to, it's they just simply don't have the cognitive abilities to understand OCD comprehensively So let's find age appropriate manners to be able to do that. 00:15:00 Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. DEVELOPING EMPATHY DURING OCD TREATMENT A Peaceful Balance Wichita: And then the next one is developing empathy during OCD treatment. I'm not gonna lie doing an empathy exercise with kids can be a little bit challenging and I think I think that because the Emotions are so complex. In situations are so complex. And so I was trying to find a way to be able to put this in a manner that A five-year-old is going to comprehend and yet also like a 15 year old is not going to think is to babyish. Kimberley Quinlan:  Yeah. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Per se. So it's a it's another worksheet because they're all worksheets it's another worksheet where the siblings can work alongside each other and it really can go either way. It usually works better if the child with OCD goes first. And so the child with OCD can share a so, for instance, I feel disgusted. When I'm around a bad food, I'm just gonna say something super blanketed and then the child the sibling with who does not have OCD could say, Okay? So let's talk about disgust. When do you feel disgusted? And they might say I feel disgusted when my parents make me eat broccoli. And so that's just a really cool and simple way for them to see that this is, you know, we can we can relate on emotions. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: And we don't have to agree on your, on your emotional reaction, but we can all we can realize that we all have these emotions and this is how we can bond. And for a young young child,… Kimberley Quinlan:  Hmm. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: This could also be a really cool lesson in emotional intelligence, because they may not necessarily understand or comprehend. All these different kinds of emotions I'm not gonna lie. I think this might be my favorite one because I think this really encompasses a lot of different things. I love empathy exercises, I'm sure you like being big. Kimberley Quinlan: Well, I think it builds on that common humanity, doesn't it? A Peaceful Balance Wichita: But it really does. And that's the whole point is, you know, going back to what I mentioned about being seen, we're all humans and we're flawed and we don't want anybody to feel like they have to be perfect in this process and we don't want anybody to feel like they have to be all knowing, because there's such a beautiful way to which is actually Um, I was gonna go back to support. I've already talked about supportive, but it's a really cool way to support each other. and also not feel like you have to be an expert or Creating them per say,… Kimberley Quinlan:  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: all right. So then the next one. The next E is encourage this one and the worksheets is make a sign. So like if you were at because again, these are assistant coaches and I'm kind of using the metaphor of sports or games or like, if you're running along a marathon, what sign would you hold for your sibling? And so, then they get to make a sign for older kids. It could be a Post-it notes, have Post-it notes, and then put it like in your siblings lunch or on the bathroom mirror, draw a picture of them, make a card for them, You know, finding different ways to encourage your sibling with out feeding and to the OCD. That could be a really big part of it. Because let's say, for instance, you have a sibling. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Who their OCD attaches on to the color? Black black is death. Black is some. Well, you know what, we're just not going to draw with the color black because it's not the siblings responsibility to do the exposures. Unless that is something that has been discussed actually in the therapy session, because, again, I can't say it enough that I do not want the sibling, to ever be in charge of treatment, or exposures or anything along the lines of that, of course, without actually working with a therapist beforehand. Kimberley Quinlan: Right, right? Can I ask you a question really quite just to clarify Tim? A Peaceful Balance Wichita: And yeah. Absolutely. Kimberley Quinlan: So that parent is the coach. Right? And… A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  Yes. Yes. Kimberley Quinlan: then the child is the assistant coach, you mentioned. Do they get assigned that or… A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  Correct. Kimberley Quinlan: Do we just call them that? Do they know they're the coach? Do we use those words? Do we assign them? That? What are your thoughts? A Peaceful Balance Wichita: I think that could really be up to a parent. Those are just terms that I've used you. 00:20:00 Kimberley Quinlan: They're like,… Kimberley Quinlan: conceptualizations. Okay. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Exactly it… A Peaceful Balance Wichita: because children work, so highly with metaphors and they can use whatever, I had a child. Once say, a lot of want to be a coach, I want to be a cheerleader. Cool. Then you could cheerlead we really kind of whatever it's like… Kimberley Quinlan:  Okay. Kimberley Quinlan:  Right. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: if they want to be the waterboy, I mean I don't care as long as they whatever they can conceptualize it as and we can still kind of follow this supportive method fine. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. Okay, thank… Kimberley Quinlan: I just want to clarify that. So okay,… A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Yep. Right. Kimberley Quinlan: we're up to we're up to N. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: That's just great. I say in is non-judgment. And this is the part that we really, really, really like to push that OCD is not your siblings fault. Absolutely did not ask to have OCD. They're not doing this on purpose to despise you or for whatever reason. And also realizing that as the sibling, the way the sibling with OCD behaves is not the siblings fault. This can be a part where you have some psycho education and learning more about what OCD is and what OCD is not. And finding different ways to be able to talk about that. Because that itself can be very difficult and… Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm. Right. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: I have, I do a lot of OCD psychoeducation when I work with families. And this is where I was going to bring unstuck back. I think that even before going through this process with families unstuck in my opinion I I'm sure other professionals you know, have their own ways of doing it but I find it to be one of the most profound psycho education methods to use for families. Because, and I'm, I do you work with kids as well. Okay, I'm sure you can, you can relate that when you're having that Psychoed session with a kid, it gets lost. They're done. They're bored. They're just like, well can I just do something else? When you have a which I love that, it's like 20 minutes, it was so made for kids the unstuck documentaries. It was beautiful. And kids talking about OCD to kids. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: I mean I I don't know how it it is more impactful than that. Because a long treatment, it's funny enough, my clients will actually refer to the kids in the movie. Like oh, okay. Well, that one boy. Um, he was able to wear Hulk mask or that one, that one girl was able to hug a tree. Oh, that one. She ripped out pages of the Bible and they'll actually refer to that and they see that as being incredibly empowering. what that also does is it lets the parents know that here are some kids… Kimberley Quinlan: You. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: who I mean, you hear their stories, you know that those were pretty severe cases These are kids who came out the other side and are in recovery. and they're talking about these challenges, they're talking about How difficult it was for them. And so when parents are learning about ERP for the first time, it's it's very scary, it's very and so I think it's not only powerful for the children with OCD and their siblings but also their parents to be able to see this documentary, I can't speak highly enough about it, but that's not why we're here. Kim, we're not here to talk about this documentary. Kimberley Quinlan: No, but I think I mean that's the beauty of the community, right? Is we all bring little pieces to what's so important. As you're talking, I'm thinking like A Peaceful Balance Wichita: That. Kimberley Quinlan: He sees that movie because that's the impact it's having. I mean I've seen it and I loved it it's so it's when we can't miss the siblings, right? Like that's some important piece. So I love that you're talking about that and I do think you're right. Question totally off topic. A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: But on topic is, when you're with a client, do you? Encourage them to watch on stock. Do you bring the family in and do this training with them? What kind how do you apply these concepts in session or Are you know, for someone who doesn't have therapy, what might they do? A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Oh, okay, I'm gonna answer that. Someone who doesn't have therapy. Might what they do. I'll go. The therapeutic route to begin with, of course, after you solidify the diagnosis? Which again, for kids can be boy, that can be a challenge that can be such a challenge. So, this is after diagnosis, This is just part of the therapy. I do I, I will say, Okay, so bring in the family and I would say, I would love to have siblings here and they'll say, Well, the sibling is five or six, is that? Okay, absolutely, because you will be surprised at how aware the young sibling is going to be their older sibling. 00:25:00 A Peaceful Balance Wichita: And all time, you will also be surprised at how much accommodation the young child might be doing because they might see that as being. Well, that's just my older sibling. My only can't cut food. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, right. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: My older sibling doesn't walk down this one hallway. That's just how they are. Well, we also want to teach them that, you know, this is this, This has a name and here's some ways that you can be encouraging for your sibling. And so I have an entire session where I invite the entire family in and we watch the movie and then we process it together. and from there,… Kimberley Quinlan:  Right. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: We go on to. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Week, We go on to just write right away going on into the bc model and figuring out different ways how the sibling can be involved. Not other not excluded and then we'll go into more of kind of like, the clinical stuff, the Y box, exposure, higher and… Kimberley Quinlan:  Yeah. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: and so forth. But you ask, how can people that don't have therapy being able to utilize this. Honestly, it's on silly. I I'm probably the. Okay, there's two ways. I'm very competitive but I'm not competitive. When it comes to This this work, I post these worksheets for free on my website because this is something that I'm not here to make a profit off of it. I'm not here to, I'm not even gonna copyright it because at the end of the day, if we can help one sibling feel heard, Cool. That's it. That's that's amazing. No, no amount of money or… Kimberley Quinlan:  Right. And A Peaceful Balance Wichita: anything could ever be better than that? Kimberley Quinlan: We can link the links to these worksheets in the show notes. You're comfortable with that. That would be amazing. Yeah. Okay,… A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  Absolutely. Kimberley Quinlan: that is so cool and so people can kind of work through them on their own. Okay. A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  Mm-hmm. And in fact, there there was a family that I worked with whose younger sibling had had some special needs. And what I did with the parents, is I just kind of briefly explained this to them and because they know their kid better than, I know, their child and they know How how their child is going to be able to kind of understand process. This, they were able to take the information they did and that they needed to be able to help out the sibling who now helps out. That the sibling with OCD. Kimberley Quinlan:  Yeah, yeah. Okay. So a couple of quick questions that I want to ask is so and it's a sort of going off of some past cases that I had. So what about the the sibling, Who's just really angry. Kimberley Quinlan: the situation at how the, you know OCD has made their family, very For treatment before they were getting resources. Do, do they There's those children who have a lot of resistance to this idea of being a coach. You work with that. Is it through the empathy? Do you have any thoughts? A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Door. And that's a fantastic question. Because we can't, we can't force. We can't force anybody to do anything. And I kind of view it like the child with OCD, If the child with OCD does not want to do the treatment. Well, then my job as a clinician is to meet that child while they're at and… Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: that very much with the sibling, you know, of the child with Ocds, I'm gonna have to meet that sibling where they're at, if they don't want anything to do with this, if they want nothing to do with any of this process at all. I'll do one of a couple things one. I, I might refer the sibling on to a therapist who doesn't necessarily like they don't necessarily have to treat OCD but they can understand OCD comprehend OCD. Well enough to be able to have a conversation. And sometimes the sibling is like, Well, I'm not the one with the problem. I don't need to go into therapy, so I'll do my best. I can to coach the parents and help them to support that sibling as well. Kimberley Quinlan: Right. Right, so. Okay and just conceptually. So the parents are using the parent. Coaches are using the bc model the children. A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: If they're ready and willing, they're using the bc model. And the person with the disorder or the medical condition is also using the bc model. Be seen model for the sibling and the family correct. A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  Yeah, I mean this this doesn't have to just be with OCD, In fact, you know, as as I'm looking at just the the acronym of seeing, I don't know if you just has to just reach the medical stuff. Because at the end of the day, don't we generally want to be supportive and empathetic and encouraging and non-judgmental humans. I think just kind of a neat model just to teach our children in general. 00:30:00 Kimberley Quinlan: Mmm. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan:  That's what I was thinking. business sort of, like, 101 Training to be a nice. and like, A Peaceful Balance Wichita: It really is it really? Like I said, I'm not reinventing the wheel, you know, I was able to use some different strategies that I've learned with. So originally as a therapist, I was on the way to becoming a play therapist. And a lot and also dealing with Dr. Bruce Perry's neurossequential model of. Oh My Gosh. Oh my gosh. Why can't I think what it is? It's his nurse sequential model for trauma. That's what it is. Oh wow. And then just just pulling different plate therapy, text me techniques. And I kind of just establish this thick this and… Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: you're right. This is basically just Yeah, I like how you said 101. Be a nice person. Kimberley Quinlan: Yeah, but the truth is and that's why I think it's so important is we all are nice people. We all want to be but when we get hit by a disorder, It's easy to go into reactivity as a parent. I know for myself or as I've seen, you know, siblings it's easy to go reactive. So these are sort of basic tools to come back to the basics and and recalibrate,… A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  Exact. Kimberley Quinlan: which is why I love it. Okay. So no,… A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  Ly. Yeah. Kimberley Quinlan: I love this so much is before we finish up. Is there anything that we haven't touched on that? You want to make sure we address here and we're talking about Supporting the siblings, but supporting the person with the disorder, any I've missed. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Um, can I list some resources? Oh, okay. Kimberley Quinlan:  And please. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: There's really not a ton of information out there about how can the sibling be involved with any medical treatment to be honest with you and I'll focus specifically on the OCD portion. Of course, John Hirschfield's amazing book in regards to family at the,… Kimberley Quinlan: On a family,… A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Yes at the very tail,… Kimberley Quinlan: I see. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: and he talks about different ways, family members can can be helpful. Natasha Daniels on her YouTube channel, she's so great. They're all great everybody. I'm listing is like All Stars. She specifically has a video about how to talk about OCD with young children and I think there's actually even more specific video about how to talk with siblings. Dr. Areeen Wagner on the Peace of Mind Foundation website. There is a whole slew of stuff about how to talk with siblings and I think the Bear Family is even involved in some of those presentations as well. And then this is gonna sound silly because I'm gonna shout out another podcast. Is that okay? A Peaceful Balance Wichita: Okay, there's a couple on the OCD stories that they talk about siblings. Jessica, Surber rested. Kimberley Quinlan:  Yes. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: One about her own experiences being a sibling. And then, this is an older one. Maybe two, three years ago. Dr. Michelle Witkins. She does a lot of advocacy for siblings and so she has an amazing podcast on there where she talks about that work. Kimberley Quinlan: Right? No, I will link to Eyes and you know I'm a massive stew fan so don't wait. Don't worry about it. No, I he's been on our show. I've been on his show a bunch of times. We are very much in Communic. A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  I figured, I don't think there was a feud going on. Kimberley Quinlan: Around food at all. No, that's that's so good that you have those and I will list those in the show notes for All as resources to use. I love. Thank you so much for sharing all those and we will have links to your sheets as well. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: ah, Kimberley Quinlan: You can An excellent resources. A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  oh, you're sweet. Thank you. Kimberley Quinlan:  Well, I am so grateful for you to come on and talk about this. I think it's really, really important that we talk about siblings, you know, address the whole family because it is a family condition, right? Thank you. I'm so just overjoyed to have you on the show. A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  Well, thank you. I'm overjoyed to be here. Kimberley Quinlan: Where can people hear from you or get information about you? A Peaceful Balance Wichita: So my website, so my practice name is a peaceful balance, Wichita Kansas, and my website is a PB wichita.com. and really, to be honest with you, probably the easiest way to To contact me is on Instagram. I'm probably on their way more often than I'd like to admit and… Kimberley Quinlan:  Yeah. 00:35:00 A Peaceful Balance Wichita: my handle is at anxiously balanced. Kimberley Quinlan: Love it and you put some amazing exposure lists and movies. It's so good. You but no it's so it's such a huge resource. A Peaceful Balance Wichita: I think I have way too much fun with those. Kimberley Quinlan: If you're looking for specific movies, documentaries songs, I think you do a great job of listing exposures. A Peaceful Balance Wichita:  Thank you.Kimberley Quinlan: Thank you so much.