Today’s episode is one that originally aired on June 14, 2019, as part of an 8-part series I called “All the Biases” which took hundreds of biases and sorted them into different categories. Because our brains are complex interconnected webs, this could have been done in many ways and the biases mentioned could belong in multiple areas. I selected groupings based on what I thought would make the most sense to this audience and applying the information about our biased brains into business.  This episode goes through a lot of concepts at a very high level. Unlike the foundations episodes of the podcast, which sometimes have a full hour dedicated to a full concept, many of these will get a sentence or only a few points. This episode is more about bringing your attention to the concepts, what is out there, and to scratch the surface of the complexity of our brains. I chose this episode as the refresh for this week because it mentions ambiguity and uncertainty aversion, which is the topic for this coming Friday’s brand new foundations episode, so it felt like a nice way to set the stage for that. Ready to dig in on all the biases? Let’s go… Show Notes: [00:39] Today’s episode is one that originally aired on June 14, 2019, as part of an 8-part series I did called “All the Biases” which sorted hundreds of biases into different categories. [03:14] Our brains are lazy and they like to take the path of least resistance to get to what they believe to be a good enough answer as quickly as possible.   [04:51] Because we are particularly lazy with math, we rely on the source of whatever is thrown our way. The brain would rather risk being wrong than take the time to do the numbers in everyday interactions.  [07:17] It is important to know what people care about when you set up your messaging.  [08:25] Due to “the less is better effect”, our preference changes when we evaluate things alone versus comparing them against others.  [10:23] Due to the money illusion we tend to concentrate on the nominal or face value of our money instead of thinking of it in terms of how much it can get for us.  We are more likely to spend money in smaller denominations.   [13:09] Due to the IKEA effect people will value things more that they made themselves or partially assembled than things they did not. The endowment effect is where we value things we own more than things we do not.  [15:45] Playing to win is not the same as playing not to lose (game theory).  [15:58] We have all sorts of bad habits when it comes to placing a value on time.  [18:20] If you have something people will be excited about you can make the wait a little more enjoyable to increase the experience. With a mundane task, reducing the wait as much as possible is key (or, often even better as discussed with Dilip Soman in episode 241, is to look at the opportunity within the wait).  [20:44] “Hot hands” are not real (hot hands fallacy) but our brains like to think this is true due to the clustering illusion. Our brains like to look for patterns. [22:27] People are more likely to prefer the things they know to things that are unknown. We are much more likely to choose an option that we know the odds for even if they are terrible because we are so afraid of the unknown (ambiguity / uncertainty aversion). [24:36] Consider the known and know that the unknown doesn’t negate everything else when making a decision.  [25:59] When we want something today, we value it differently than tomorrow (time discounting). When we look at tomorrow or things we don’t know about we expect the worst even when there is nothing to make us feel that way other than our own natures. [26:55] Most of us don’t properly understand how averages impact our lives every day and this can impact the decisions we make in business.  [27:15] Melina shares a story from Thinking Fast and Slow about regressive bias. [29:47] The instructor has attached a causal interpretation to the inevitable fluctuations of a random process.  [32:00] Everything we know to be true is not necessarily true. It is easy to find the right answer to the wrong question.  [33:25] The lesson is to know that our brains like to tell us stories. They write their own rules and details that serve what the subconscious thinks is best. Taking a little extra time and being a little more open can change your view and your success rate.  [34:00] Melina’s closing thoughts [35:02] Adapting your lenses and looking from multiple angles and depths is really important to make that possible, which is why an episode like this is so valuable. Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and Support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You, by Melina Palmer Behavioral Science in the Wild, by Dilip Soman & Nina Mazar Thinking Fast and Slow, by Daniel Kahneman Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein Freakonomics, by Steven Levitt & Stephen Dubner Top Recommended Next Episode: Behavioral Science in the Wild with Dilip Soman (episode 241) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Overview of Personal Biases (ep 45) Biases Toward Others – Including Groups (ep 46) An Overview of Memory Biases (ep 48) Present Versus Future Biases (ep 49) Selective Attention Biases (ep 50) Biases Toward Novelty and Stories (ep 54) Anchoring & Adjustment  (ep 11) Loss Aversion (ep 9) IKEA Effect (ep 112) Time Discounting (ep 51) Booms, Bubbles, and Busts (ep 30) Mental Accounting (ep 56) Endowment Effect (ep 139) Negativity Bias (ep 223) The Cobra Effect (ep 220) Game Theory (ep 228) Duration Neglect and the Peak End Rule (ep 97) Planning Fallacy (ep 114) Status Quo Bias (ep 142) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Less Is Better: When Low-value Options Are Valued More Highly than High-value Options The Disposition to Sell Winners Too Early and Ride Losers Too Long: Theory and Evidence Treatment Decisions Under Ambiguity Ambiguity and Nonparticipation: The Role of Regulation Risk, Ambiguity, and the Savage Axioms Statistics How To How to Feel Like You Have All the Time in the World (even If You Don’t)

In today's conversation, I am joined by Dr. Dilip Soman, coauthor of Behavioral Science in the Wild. Dilip is a Canada Research Chair in Behavioural Science and Economics and serves as a Director of the Behavioural Economics in Action Research Centre at Rotman [BEAR]. His research is in the area of behavioral science and its applications to consumer well-being, marketing, and policy. He has written multiple books including The Last Mile, The Behaviorally Informed Organization, and Behavioral Science in the Wild (all of which we will discuss a bit today) and he also teaches a massive open online course called "BE101X: Behavioural Economics in Action" on EdX. That is actually how he and I first got introduced years ago when someone who was taking BE101X tagged us both on Twitter suggesting my podcast as a resource for students taking his class. We had connected a bit then but didn't end up making it the "last mile" to getting a meeting in the books (see what I did there?). So when this new book, Behavioral Science in the Wild came out, I knew it was the perfect time for us to have this first chat and it was so much fun! Listen in to hear about the pain of paying (and some interesting thoughts and research about dental work), the duration heuristic, the importance of virtual progress and supposedly irrelevant factors (SIFs) and so much more! Show Notes: [00:43] In today's conversation, I am joined by Dr. Dilip Soman, coauthor of Behavioral Science in the Wild. [03:31] Much of his early research was about how memory from pain depreciates. [05:01] Memories of factual things remain. Memories of experiences tend to depreciate.  [06:30] Melina shares a recent experience at the dentist where her hygienist said that 40% of people don’t want novocaine because they don’t like feeling numb after the appointment.  [07:40] Dilip shares a story about his neighbor getting a snow blower.  [09:35] Often people don’t want to pay more to get something done sooner. People learn in some domains that the longer the service the better. [12:10] You would think that your overall evaluation of an experience depends on the sum of all of your experiences. Sometimes experiences feel better if you feel like you are making progress as opposed to actual progress. [13:49] We are actually happier when we are driving than sitting in traffic (even if the trip takes longer).  [16:25] Waiting time is an opportunity. It is an opportunity to educate, amuse, and engage people.   [18:09] Dilip shares his background and the work that he does. He is a mechanical engineer by training. [20:10] His entire motivation for coming to academia was to understand why people think and how we can help people lead happier lives. He has tried many ways to take science to the field.  [23:06] Medical sciences actually have a science for how to implement stuff called implementation science – behavioral science should have this too.  [23:41] The first book in his series, The Behaviorally Informed Organization talks about what an organization should do to embed behavioral science.  [25:15] Behavioral Science in the Wild was written to tackle the challenge that the results are not as formidable as we would like them to be.  [26:58] SIFs are supposedly irrelevant factors, things that we think should not influence decisions but do.  [29:04] Every intervention could have multiple interpretations and pathways.  [31:11] Successfully scaling an intervention doesn’t mean that intervention has to be homogenous. You don’t have to do the same thing for everyone. Often you actually need to customize it.  [32:23] There are two sources of differences in situations that might cause the effect of our interventions to change.  [34:47] Oftentimes we explain failures by just saying it is a different context (don’t let this be your excuse and stop there).  [37:34] The moment you change the lens to try and understand the friction, you start seeing things.   [37:44] Think small. The success of big ideas gets tripped up by small things. [39:22] Sometimes it is the little stuff that trips people up.  [41:02] Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best ones.  [43:16] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Behavioral Science in the Wild, by Dilip Soman & Nina Mazar The Behaviorally Informed Organization, by Dilip Soman Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein The Last Mile, by Dilip Soman Misbehaving, by Richard Thaler Connect with Dilip:  Behavioural Economics in Action at Rotman (BEAR) Dilip on LinkedIn Dilip on Twitter Top Recommended Next Episode: Do Nudges Work? with Michael Hallsworth (episode 218) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Pain of Paying (episode 240) Confirmation Bias (episode 102) Peak-End Rule (episode 97) IKEA Effect (episode 112) Surprise and Delight (episode 60) Framing (episode 16) Defaults: The "D" in NUDGES (episode 38) How To Change, an interview Dr. Katy Milkman (episode 51) Hawthorne Effect (episode 117) How to Finally Change Your Behavior (So it Sticks) (episode 81) How To Set Up Your Own Experiments (episode 63) Friction - What It Is And How To Reduce It, with Roger Dooley (episode 72) Precommitment (episode 120) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  The Duration Heuristic Virtual Progress A Megastudy of Text-Based Nudges Encouraging Patients to Get Vaccinated at an Upcoming Doctor’s Appointment Behaviourally Informed Organizations Go to basecamp.com/brainy and try Basecamp for free. 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Today’s episode is all about the pain of paying. This episode originally aired as number 59 in August of 2019. It was formed from a paper I had found and researched before I started doing interviews on the show. I had never met or really considered connecting with the author of the main paper I reference in the episode, Ofer Zellermayer (this paper was his doctoral dissertation). In addition to having an episode on this, I included a full chapter on the pain of paying in my first book, What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You which came out in May 2021.  Well, funny enough, in October of that same year, he reached out to me! He said that he had gone to search something related to his paper and found the podcast episode so he dropped everything to listen! He approved of it (phew!) and reached out to connect, which is such an awesome thing. I’m always amazed at the power of the podcast and all the relationships and connections that have come from it over the years. Remember what I said last week in episode 238 about reciprocity? Business is a long game, give freely and you will be amazed at how great things can be.  Anyway, you may be wondering why I chose this episode for today’s refresh. For one, with the holidays upon us and just finishing up Black Friday, Small Business Saturday, and Cyber Monday here in the states, it felt like a great time to talk about the pain of paying. Buying things can feel like physical pain, and it is important to know that, but not go too over the top to compensate for it. Deals and discounts abound this time of year, and people buy differently when they are shopping for gifts. It is all interesting stuff to keep in mind as you consider your own buying this holiday, and any sales you may be running for your business. It felt like the perfect time to refresh this episode for you. Show Notes: [00:38] Today’s episode is all about the pain of paying. [02:57] Buying things can feel like physical pain, and it is important to know that, but not go too over the top to compensate for it. Deals and discounts abound this time of year, and people buy differently when they are shopping for gifts. [04:21] Buying things isn’t all fun and games and the process of paying for things can actually cause pain for many people.  [06:14] Everyone experiences some level of pain of payment in various scenarios and those conditions tend to be pretty universal. Context is incredibly important when it comes to the pain felt making a payment.  [07:09] Melina shares the reasons and continuums that impact the pain felt in a payment. [09:30] The brain loves a story. This story can impact the pain felt by paying. [12:28] Price is not about price. Everything that comes before the price matters much more than the price itself.  [13:57] When the pain of paying is too much, people who don’t buy things that they need or want because it is too difficult to give up money are called tightwads. Those who spend too much too easily and do not feel an appropriate amount of pain before or during the spending process are called spendthrifts.  [16:58] Being a tightwad is different than being frugal. Frugality is rooted in joy when saying money.  [19:16] 60% of people are unconflicted, 25% are tightwads, and 15% are spendthrifts. Your biggest challenge is overcoming the 25% who are tightwads.  [20:08] Tightwads are most sensitive to framing adjustments so that is where you can make a difference. Tightwads can have a difficult time paying for things with cash so make it easy to pay with a credit card. [22:17] The pain was found to have less of an impact when buying what is considered virtue products than vice products. It is important to know what category your product falls into when you are looking at how to frame your message.  [23:46] One of the big issues for spendthrifts is that they do not account for or intuitively understand the opportunity cost at the moment when they are getting ready to buy or they want to buy things.  [25:52] Everyone will feel some sort of pain when paying. It is your job as the person selling to figure out what the buyer needs, what would benefit them the most, and then present it to them in a way that will have the last pain felt so they can actually enjoy spending the money.  [27:39] For your business, think about how people interpret what they are getting. If it was not their choice are there some other areas where you can help them feel like they did make a choice so there is less pain felt in the experience?   [31:26] When the pain of paying isn’t felt as much it doesn’t impact the experience as negatively.  [33:51] In some ways, you are making the loss and pain much more prevalent, reducing usage by consumers, and impacting the overall experience.   [35:29] The payment that is triggering pain doesn’t have to be from money, it can be time as well.  [37:36] When consumption and payment are coupled together, you experience pain as you consume, it has a certain level of pain and joy associated. When you uncouple them, you experience each item separately which can increase each unless you implement them properly.  [40:03] The pain of payment can be removed when the payment is taken care of before consumption.  [42:12] “Strong buffering and hence reduced the pain of paying occurs when the consumer can directly connect the costs in terms of money with the benefits in terms of product or service. The ability to associate costs and benefits is just as important in physical pain.” [44:26] The pain of paying was potentially completely eliminated when it was given as a gift. [45:06] Melina’s closing thoughts [45:26] The fact that we think about gifts differently than something we need — and that we want to spend LESS on the things we functionally NEED is so interesting. Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and Support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You, by Melina Palmer How Customers Think, by Gerald Zaltman Alchemy, by Rory Sutherland Engaged, by Amy Bucher Marketing to Mindstrates, by Will Leach Top Recommended Next Episode: Get Your D.O.S.E. of Brain Chemicals (episode 123) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Framing (episode 16) Priming (episode 18) What is Value? (episode 234) Mental Accounting: How To Make Your Money Math Work For You (episode 56) Partitioning How to Raise Your Prices (episode 77) The Truth About Pricing (episode 5) Focusing Illusion (episode 89) Decision Fatigue (episode 132) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/280711796_The_Pain_of_Paying The Red and the Black: Mental Accounting of Savings and Debt The Pain of Paying Tightwads and Spendthrifts: An Interdisciplinary Review

In today's conversation, I am joined by Luke Freeman, who is the executive director of Giving What We Can, an organization dedicated to creating a culture where people are inspired to give to the world’s most effective charities. Giving What We Can was one of the first organizations in the world focused on effective altruism: the project of using evidence and reason to figure out how to best help others, and taking action on that basis. I specifically asked Luke to be on the show today to discuss behavioral science concepts and how they line up with nonprofits. Sometimes, concepts perform exactly as they would in a traditional customer/company relationship when there is money being exchanged…but in other cases, research has found this isn't the case. When people are volunteering or donating some tactics that would show you are grateful or appreciative of a customer (like giving a gift) may backfire and feel…off. Knowing this is a time of year when people who work in nonprofits or volunteer on boards are gearing up for year-end asks or doing strategic planning for next year and people may be thinking of their annual donations, it seemed like the perfect time for this episode to help everyone be more effective with their support of others now and into the future. Show Notes: [00:45] In today's conversation, I am joined by Luke Freeman, who is the executive director of Giving What We Can. [03:08] Luke shares his background and the work that he does. His background is in marketing and he has recently moved to the nonprofit sector. [05:14] When Giving What We Can was looking for an executive director, it was a perfect opportunity to do work that was really important to him.  [06:18] Typically, when people are giving to charity they are giving to something right in front of them or things that they have had some experience with.  [07:39] When people think about charity effectiveness generally the two things that they think of are overheads or administrative costs and impact.  [09:48] The first bar is trying to get people to look outside of themselves and try to improve the lives of others. Once you are there then you narrow in on where you can make the most impact.  [12:27] We can take time to think about what we care about, whose life/lives we are looking to impact, and what is going to be the best use of money to help.   [13:16] We often look at neglectivness because popular problems are often getting a lot of resources already. A lot of stuff is neglected because it fits in the prevention space. [14:44] People are often willing to give right away out of pity or guilt, but that isn’t sustainable giving.   [16:32] Sometimes behavioral science concepts that work in traditional buying relationships don’t necessarily go the same way when looking at nonprofits and charities.  [18:45] Donors want to feel confident in their donations. Showing other humans giving and why they give is also quite motivating.  [22:29] If your company gets the right story it can really work for the company in terms of their own sales as well. People prefer that there be a logical story that is told of why that charity makes sense for the company they are partnering with.  [24:55] With any brand messaging when you can be specific and narrow the story down or follow the story of someone it has a bigger impact. [27:33] Donation matching is also popular but there isn’t a lot of strong evidence of its effect.   [28:52] Recurring donations make more sense for many donors and are much more sustainable.   [30:30] The door in the face technique and artificial surveillance cues don’t tend to be as effective with donations. Explanation about context from Melina and why this might be happening – don’t generalize results!  [33:25] Recognizing volunteer contributions and having a more human connection can be very helpful for keeping and increasing volunteers. Volunteering strategies are going to be very specific to the organization's context.  [35:00] Some volunteer opportunities are also donor nurturing programs in disguise (in a good way). It showcases the work that the charity does and even if they cost more to run, they are worth it because they create new donors.  [37:51] Don’t give people reasons not to do the thing you want them to do. Also, after the fact appreciate it.   [39:10] If you do nothing else this month, what does Luke recommend? You really need to get in the head of your user and in this case that is a donor. Your existing donor base is the biggest asset you have.  [40:15] People really care that they are able to help others and they want their money to go as far as possible. A game of “hot or not” with Luke’s rapid-fire tips. [43:41] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [43:51] I love the idea of being more thoughtful before supporting the most popular organization you might see or hear about the most. Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: The Speed of Trust, by Stephen M.R. Covey Influence, by Robert Cialdini Predictably Irrational, by Dan Ariely You Have More Influence Than You Think, by Vanessa Bohns How Minds Change, by David McRaney Connect with Luke:  Giving What We Can Website Luke on LinkedIn Luke on Twitter Giving What We Can on Twitter Top Recommended Next Episode: Reciprocity: The Amazing Power of Giving (episode 238) Already Heard That One? Try These:  What is Value? (episode 234) Precommitment (episode 120) Availability Bias (episode 15) Framing (episode 16) Time Discounting (episode 51) Biases Toward Novelty and Stories (episode 54) Reciprocity (episode 23) Loss Aversion (episode 9) Social Proof (episode 87) The Speed and Economics of Trust, an Interview with Stephen M.R. Covey (episode 148) Dr. Robert Cialdini and the (Now!) 7 Principles of Persuasion (episode 157) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Member Motivations: Why people pledged to give 10% of their income to effective charities Marketing Messages Trial for GWWC Giving Guide Campaign Can money buy happiness? A review of new data What Works to Increase Charitable Donations? A Meta-Review with Meta-Meta-Analysis

Today’s episode is all about reciprocity, one of my very favorite concepts and approaches to life and business. For me, it is natural to give first and I enjoy being generous. I don’t recall the specific names of the love languages, but nurturing relationships is something that matters a lot to me (or whatever they call it) and would definitely be one of mine.  I have seen time and time again how this comes back so much bigger when you give first and don’t just do it to get stuff in return.  Life and business are a long game. It is so much better to be giving and generous up front and know that things will work out and take care of you eventually. This is also why I had last week’s refreshed episode about the brainy benefits of gratitude and why I always talk about reciprocity around the holidays and why this episode, which originally aired as number 23 of the podcast, was an obvious choice for me to refresh for you today. This is also leading into Friday’s brand new episode which will look at nonprofits and how generosity and giving and behavioral economics are the same and different when we step outside the typical customer/company relationship and into charitable giving. Now…let’s dig in on reciprocity (which is much more than just free gifts). Show Notes: [00:39] Today’s episode is all about reciprocity, one of my very favorite concepts and approaches to life and business. [01:21] Life and business are a long game. It is so much better to be giving and generous up front and know that things will work out and take care of you eventually. [02:49] Reciprocity is what happens when someone gives you something (whether you want it or not, whether you value it or not) and you feel obligated to give them something in return.  [04:03] Melina shares one of her favorite examples of reciprocity from The Big Bang Theory.   [05:44] Our brains tend to overvalue the gifts we are given and compensate in a way that exceeds the value of the original gift.  [08:42] The gift of kindness and a little effort goes a long way.  [09:20] Reciprocity presents itself in many ways but there are three categories: the free gift, the small ask on the path to something bigger, and the big ask to get something more realistic.   [09:44] The free gift is a little something that is given freely and helps make you a little more endearing in the eyes of the recipient.   [12:37] Another way to give out free gifts is with samples.   [15:17] Reciprocity and free gifts are often used when asking for donations. [17:44] Other examples of free gifts are sales or discounts.   [19:05] Discounts will often cost you more so use them sparingly and with a lot of strategy.  [22:16] Be of service to other people; reciprocity is a key reason why.    [22:55] The next category of reciprocity is a small ask to get something bigger.   [25:56] What is the gift you can give that can encourage businesses to donate later? What you want to do is ask for them to perform a small and simple task they are unlikely to refuse. Then when you come back for a donation they are more likely to say yes.  [28:47] Getting someone to say yes once to something small increases the likelihood that they will say yes again.   [30:06] In the last category you start with a big, ridiculous, or even unreasonable ask to make the thing you actually want to ask for seem more reasonable and appealing by comparison.  [30:57] Melina shares about a study on a university campus asking for volunteers.  [34:38] If you are going to use the big-then-small tactic it should be the same person both times and you should do them really close together. One obvious place to use this tactic is in negotiations of any kind.  [36:06] Melina shares a story about setting rates and pricing.  [39:02] Melina’s closing thoughts Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and Support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Influence, by Robert Cialdini Stumbling on Happiness, by Dan Gilbert What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You, by Melina Palmer Happier Hour, by Cassie Holmes You’re Invited, by Jon Levy Top Recommended Next Episode: Gratitude or Happiness: Which Comes First? (episode 236) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Framing (episode 16) Priming (episode 18) How to Set, Achieve & Exceed Brainy Goals (episode 70) How to Have Difficult Conversations About Race & Inequality: Interview with Kwame Christian (episode 107) Anchoring & Adjustment  (episode 11) Relativity (episode 12) Dr. Robert Cialdini and the (Now!) 7 Principles of Persuasion (episode 157) Do Lead Magnets Work and Do You Need One? (episode 3) How To Revisit & Update Your Lead Magnets, Freebies & Opt-Ins (episode 103) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  The power of yard signs II: Escalation of commitment Compliance Without Pressure: the Foot-in-the-door Technique Need to Set Rates? Find Your “Resentment Number” Reciprocal Concessions Procedure for Inducing Compliance:The Door-in-the-Face Technique A Fresh Wave of Marketing: An Intentional Approach to Marketing for Visionary CEOsSweetening the Till: The Use of Candy to Increase Restaurant Tipping Poll Reveals Who Are the Best, Worst Tippers

In today's conversation, I am joined by Dr. Douglas Kenrick and David Lundberg-Kenrick to talk about their new book, Solving Modern Problems with a Stone-Age Brain. As you will hear about in the episode, they are a father and son team with very different backgrounds, so it is incredibly interesting to see how they came together to write this really incredibly interesting book. I became acquainted with Doug and Dave through Bob Cialdini, who emailed me saying that this team from ASU had a new book out that he found to be fascinating and thought I would too. That was, of course, enough endorsement for me, and after some due diligence, I quickly confirmed that this was a book that was a great fit for the podcast. Doug and Dave have stories of a young Bob Cialdini as well as "Danny Kahneman" in their book as they share examples of how our brains have adapted (or not) while the world around us has changed dramatically and how that matters to all of us in life, and of course in business. You don’t want to miss this!  Show Notes: [00:46] In today's conversation, I am joined by Dr. Douglas Kenrick and David Lundberg-Kenrick to talk about their new book, Solving Modern Problems with a Stone-Age Brain.  [03:06] Dave and Doug share their backgrounds and how they found themselves writing a book together. Dave’s background is in film production. [04:20] Doug is a social psychologist.  [05:59] Social motives are actually primary. We have basic needs like hunger and thirst and as we get a little older we start to become concerned with protecting ourselves.  [07:58] Organisms are designed to reproduce. So human beings go through the same basic phases as other animals. You develop your body, develop your social relationships, and then you find mates.  [10:25] The seven motives are basic resources (food and shelter), self-protection, affiliations or friendship, gaining status, finding and choosing a mate, maintaining romantic relationships, and kin care.  [12:04] There are some places in which our ancestral motives serve us well and there are others in which they serve us really badly.  [14:20] Melina recommends Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond and  Evolutionary Ideas by Sam Tatam (previous guest on The Brainy Business).  [16:06] Stimulus control is incredibly important and you can control your environment to support what you want to do.  [18:00] You should never strive for perfection because you are always going to feel disappointed. It is really hard for us to balance all seven motives.  [21:11] We can only prioritize 1-2 of the motives at any given time.  [23:34] We can take small steps and do a little in each of these categories and when we do them they tend to make us feel healthier.  [25:25] Their book-writing process was to go for a walk in the morning and talk about the ideas they were going to write that day. After working and writing alone during the day when they took an evening walk they almost always came up with solutions to the problems they had found in the morning.  [28:05] They really enjoyed the process and learned a lot.  [29:58] Figuring out ways to present things in a way that is ethical is really important too.  [32:22] There is something really interesting about ideas that come from dialogue.  [33:11] What about applying this in business? Start by asking how your business can fill the seven fundamental motives for your customers and employees. [35:07] The thing you might think your brand is about might not actually be the only way to convey your message. Think about what your brand conveys and what you really want it to convey.  [37:48] You can ask yourself, “How can this job satisfy my motives?” You will do better on the job if you walk in and regularly consider, “How can I satisfy the motives of my co-workers and bosses?”  [39:38] Public compliments are one of the best things leaders and coworkers can do and it is a really effective thing.  [40:59] Learning people’s names is one of the classic ways to give a little bit of affiliation and status.  [43:45] Work-life balance is a big thing for both finding, keeping a mate, and parenting.  [45:04] Stick to lifting people up and always giving them more status. Give them more autonomy and time also.  [48:40] Human beings are designed to not be selfish, but to help other people. The best thing you can do for yourself is to help others.  [50:49] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [51:24] Often, a simple reframing of your message can make all the difference in the world, and understanding the things that will motivate our stone-age minds to act -- even in this modern world -- is so, so useful in finding messaging that sticks. Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Solving Modern Problems With a Stone-Age Brain, by David Lundberg-Kenrick and Douglas Kenrick Influence, by Robert Cialdini Guns, Germs, and Steel, by Jared Diamond Evolutionary Ideas, by Sam Tatam What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You, by Melina Palmer Connect with Tessa:  Dave on LinkedIn Doug on LinkedIn Dave on Twitter Doug on Twitter Top Recommended Next Episode: Dr. Robert Cialdini and the (Now!) 7 Principles of Persuasion (episode 157) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Anchoring & Adjustment (episode 11) Evolutionary Ideas with Sam Tatam, Ogilvy’s Global Head of Behavioural Science (episode 204) Precommitment (episode 120) The Overwhelmed Brain & Its Impact on Decision Making (episode 32) Time Discounting (episode 51) Framing (episode 16) Priming (episode 18) Peloton: A Behavioral Economics Analysis (episode 86) Herding (episode 19) Unity (episode 216) Social Proof (episode 87) Apple Card: A Behavioral Economics Analysis (episode 42) Do Lead Magnets Work and Do You Need One? (episode 3) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Solving Modern Problems Website Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs Pick Three Zombified Podcast

Today’s episode is all about the brainy benefits of gratitude. At the end of the year, I always like to do episodes about reciprocity, gratefulness, happiness, and planning…and this year is no different. One thing that is new this year, is that we have two episodes a week including our Tuesday refreshes so this episode from November 2019 on the brainy benefits of gratitude gets another day in the sun. I really enjoy this episode as it looks at the difference between happiness and gratitude and how they might not work the way we think they should (which you will of course learn all about in the episode today).  Here’s something to think about as we start the episode: Do you have to get what you want to be happy? Is synthesized (or manufactured) happiness the same as natural happiness? What is best for your overall psyche and those around you? Keep that in mind as you listen, and share your thoughts with me on social media! Show Notes: [00:39] Today’s episode is all about the brainy benefits of gratitude. [01:55] Gratefulness and reciprocity have an important thing in common, a tie that can bond them together which is a feeling of happiness and joy. Doing things for others or giving things away can make you feel happier.  [04:09] Our brains systematically misjudge what will make us happy.  [05:36] Dan Gilbert tells about how people don’t know what will make them happy. One of the most important things the human brain does is allow to synthesize the future, imagine what is to come, and predict how we should act for the best possible outcome.  [06:29] Natural happiness is a product of getting exactly what you want.  [06:41] Synthetic happiness is what we get when we don’t get what we wanted. Synthetic happiness, not getting what you want but still being happy about where you are is just as enduring and every bit as real to the brain as if you got exactly what you wanted or thought you wanted.  [09:36] A fascinating example using Monet paintings to show how our preferences change. You can be grateful, appreciate things, and have them make you happier even if you don’t remember going through the process before.  [10:09] We think we will be happier if we have more options or choices but there is such a thing as too much choice. Freedom to choose is the opposite of happiness.  [11:20] Those who were stuck and had no room for deliberation after the fact were much happier than those that had the option to ruminate. Those who were stuck had no reason to ruminate and counterfactualize and were considerably happier. [13:00] Not getting what you want can make you just as happy or happier than if you had gotten what you set out for. Synthesized happiness is the same as natural happiness. Lots of choices and opportunities to ruminate are a recipe for unhappiness.  [14:23] Gratefulness goes first.  [15:07] The benefits of gratitude filtering can impact all areas of your life in a positive way. When you are filtering for gratitude you are resetting the way your subconscious is looking at the world around you.  [16:50] It is important to write gratitude by hand when you can. Writing things by hand has tons of benefits.  [17:41] One reason writing by hand does all these things is because it forces you to slow down and be thoughtful. Your brain pays more attention to things you write down.  [18:38] Gratitude can also improve relationships. Sharing the good makes it easier to share the bad allowing for growth and progress together.  [20:08] It is time to filter for gratitude and start writing what you are grateful for. [20:12] Melina’s closing thoughts Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and Support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Stumbling on Happiness, by Dan Gilbert The Paradox of Choice, by Barry Schwartz The Happier Hour, by Cassie Holmers Tiny Habits, by BJ Fogg Good Habits, Bad Habits, by Wendy Wood Top Recommended Next Episode: Paradox of Choice: Why More is Less (episode 171) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Reciprocity (episode 23) Get Your D.O.S.E. of Brain Chemicals (episode 123) The Littery - Interview with CEO Michael Manniche (episode 75) Counterfactual Thinking (episode 68) Prefactual Thinking (episode 71) Expect Error: The "E" in NUDGES (episode 39) Priming (episode 18) How to Set, Achieve & Exceed Brainy Goals (episode 70) The Power of Habit (episode 22) Framing (episode 16) Confirmation Bias (episode 102) Focusing Illusion (episode 89) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  The Surprising Science of Happiness Dan Gilbert TED2004 What Does It Take To Be Grateful? In Praise of Gratitude 5 Reasons Writing by Hand Is Good for the Brain and for Well-Being Three Ways That Handwriting With A Pen Positively Affects Your Brain 9 Incredible Ways Writing By Hand Benefits Our Bodies And Brains How Arianna Huffington, Tony Robbins and Oprah Winfrey Use Gratitude as a Strategy for Success

In today's conversation, I am joined by Dr. Tessa Misiaszek, coauthor of Branding That Means Business. Tessa is an instructor with Harvard Professional Development Programs, as well as a Professor at Hult International Business School. She brings extensive experience developing human capital strategies to improve business communications. Previously she served as CEO of Empathetics, Inc. – a company that developed empathic communications training for healthcare professionals, and she is currently the Head of Research for Korn Ferry. She is also one of the hosts of The Happy At Work Podcast, which I was honored to be a guest on recently discussing my book, What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You. Today, Tessa is here discussing her new book, Branding that Means Business, which she co-authored with Matt Johnson, who was on the show two weeks ago talking about the customer side of branding. Today, Tessa and I look a little more on the employee side of things and how much that matters for brands. Listen in to learn more. Show Notes: [00:43] In today's conversation, I am joined by Dr. Tessa Misiaszek, coauthor of Branding That Means Business. [02:41] Tessa shares about herself and the work she does.  [04:06] Tessa met Matt in England and they had an argument about empathy. [06:06] Her debate with Matt was if empathy had a scaling issue and if empathy can deplete you as a person.  [08:13] Tips for working with a co-author? If you go into business or create a start-up with a partner it is like a marriage. If it goes bad, it can go really bad. You want to make sure you have the right partner at the onset.  [11:04] Today we are going to talk about the internal functioning of marketing, branding, and culture.  [11:45] The function of marketing is value creation.      [13:45] A brand is not marketing. A brand is an asset to your marketing strategy. [16:17] Authenticity needs to tie through everything and the outward messaging to customers matters.   [18:41] At the end of the day it is the transparency that builds trust and once consumers have trust that you are doing what you say you are they are more likely to be loyal and forgiving if something happens.  [22:05] The more empathy you can have for the way that your consumers live their lives and think about how your product and service are integrated into the way they live their lives that will allow you to build a more authentic brand connected to them.  [23:42] Brand is really the great differentiator today.   [26:42] Empathizing with the customers is crucial.  [29:00] As a brand you can’t be all things to all people so don’t try to be.  [29:49] Companies are only as good as the people that run them. Being able to really connect that purpose to the employee organization and culture that you develop within the company is very important.   [31:50] Mission and values are just the beginning. Next, you have to think about the infrastructure and operations.  [33:54] Zappos worked on creating and building a culture that really engaged the employees and then delivered on that and drive everything about the company.  [35:28] Melina shares Zappos' ten core values. Tessa recommends that start-ups start with five unique authentic values. [37:14] If we all say we have the best service then nobody has the best service unless you are really living that. It is not enough to just say it, you have to show it.  [40:09] Values are not just words on a board. You have to think about how these values will evolve over time. To stay true to that as a company you have to continue to innovate based on those values.  [42:50] There should be an inventory once a year of company values.   [44:35] Tessa’s podcast Happy At Work talks about organizational culture, employee engagement, and how to create a positive workplace environment.   [45:09] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [46:03] Your brand promise may not be the same as your core values...and even if you don't have something written out anywhere (yet) or aren't really living those days in and day out (yet) consider this an opportunity to look at those and see how you can be doing better. Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Branding That Means Business, by Matt Johnson and Tessa Misiaszek Blindsight, by Matt Johnson and Prince Ghuman What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You, by Melina Palmer The Speed of Trust, by Stephen M.R. Covey Delivering Happiness, by Tony Hsieh Connect with Tessa:  Tessa on LinkedIn Tessa on Twitter The Happy At Work Podcast Top Recommended Next Episode: Branding That Means Business with Matt Johnson (episode 231) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Neuroscience and Psychology in the Business World, An Interview with Matt Johnson  (episode 160) Why We Like the Things We Like, with Prince Ghuman, coauthor of Blindsight (episode 172) Introducing Kwame Christian and How to Use the Compassionate Curiosity Framework for Difficult Conversations (episode 107) What is Value? (episode 234) How to create a brainy brand (episode 230) That Time I Went Viral… with Dr. Daniel Crosby (episode 212) Reciprocity (episode 23) The Speed and Economics of Trust, an Interview with Stephen M.R. Covey (episode 148) IKEA Effect (episode 112) The Power of Us with Dr. Dominic Packer (episode 178) Bikeshedding (episode 99) Time Discounting (episode 51) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Korn Ferry Empathy Company Zappos 10 Core Values Embracing Change: Melina’s Episode on The Happy At Work Podcast Automatic Effects of Brand Exposure on Motivated Behavior: How Apple Makes You “Think Different”

Today’s episode is all about value — what it is, what it isn’t, and why it matters for businesses. Value is something you hear about a lot, but it isn’t necessarily something that we intuitively get or what drives our motivation to buy things. In today’s episode, (which originally aired as number 8 of the podcast way back in August 2018), I get into the difference between value, price, worth, and cost and how they all matter in business.  I chose this episode for you today for a couple of reasons. First, Leigh Caldwell, the guest on last Friday’s episode, wrote a book called The Psychology of Price, which of course, brings value to the table. Whenever we talk about price, value is a key aspect. Also, in the episode this coming Friday, featuring Tessa Misiaszek, coauthor of Branding That Means Business, she will talk a lot about value vs. values, and what they mean in an organization and for its employees. That got me thinking about this episode.  It is one I really love but don’t end up talking about all that much, so it felt like it would be fun to bring it back to the forefront for a little moment in the sun. As you listen today, think about the value you create in your work. Of course, there is the obvious in your products and services, but also think about the less obvious side of value for your employees and teams working within your business. And tune in to learn some crazy stories of what people are willing to pay for things – from kidney stones to grilled cheese sandwiches… Show Notes: [00:38] Today’s episode is all about value — what it is, what it isn’t, and why it matters for businesses. [02:41] What are your values as a company, and how is that different from the value you create? How can your values be informing value? And how does that tie into worth — both of the organization and the self-worth of everyone that is involved with the company? [03:51] People tend to use the words value, price, and worth interchangeably, but they are not the same thing. They work together but they are actually quite different.  [05:08] Price is what someone is willing to pay for a good or service.   [06:12] Worth is the expected selling price of something. Things have worth even if they don’t have a selling price.  [08:59] Value is the usefulness or desirability of a good or service, how much you love it, or what it is worth to you. Value is not a number, it is based on how much you love it. Value is subjective and personal.  [11:11] Often items we value can be replaced, but we don’t usually value them the same even though it is worth the same.   [12:35] Getting people to be realistic about their worth, price, and value is very important when you are trying to convince them to sell an item, especially one as sentimental as a home.  [14:28] Herding, value, perceived ownership, and loss aversion work together in things like bidding wars. When you add scarcity into the mix…watch out!  [16:00] Your brain might say, “If others are willing to pay for it now, it will likely rise in value over time and there might never be another one…I better jump on this and buy before it goes really crazy!”  [18:41] The herd will catch on and people assume the value that was paid is a new value.  [21:28] Brands are what give companies value. Brands give you loyal followers which creates herds.   [22:21] Brands are a big reason why it is not about the price or the item itself. Brands bring value to companies.  [24:33] Our brains get what they expect. If they are set up to believe something is amazing, they will often interpret the thing as amazing.   [27:15] It is important to establish value and make people feel like your product or service is worth paying for.  [28:08] Exclusivity is the celebrity factor and it has a large impact on value and price.  [29:53] How much did the owner's explanation and framing of the making of the sandwich and the high-quality ingredients have to do with the perceived value? He was confident in his explanation and said the price without hesitation which is also key to establishing value and justifying the price. [32:54] Stories are memorable. Stories make brands. [36:21] Our brains are trained to believe what they learned first until proven otherwise. Our brains believe what they are told and hold those things as facts – especially when it sounds really convincing or appealing.  [38:46] No matter what you are selling, brand value matters. In business, establishing brand value is the key to loyal customers who are willing to pay premium prices. People get more value when they pay more.  [40:12] Price and perceived value are linked in the human brain. A higher price means it must be better and have more value.  [41:56] Value is subjective. Value is in our heads. Value changes. Value can be created and built up. To get the herd to accept the value, you only need a few passionate people who are willing to pay what you (or they!) think the item is worth.    [42:45] Melina’s closing thoughts Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and Support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: The Psychology of Price, by Leigh Caldwell Predictably Irrational, by Dan Ariely Branding That Means Business, by Matt Johnson and Tessa Misiaszek The Behavioral Investor, by Daniel Crosby What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You, by Melina Palmer Top Recommended Next Episode: Endowment Effect (episode 139) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Herding (episode 19) Loss Aversion (episode 9) The Truth About Pricing (episode 5) Branding That Means Business with Matt Johnson (episode 231) Wait…There’s a System 3? featuring Leigh Caldwell (episode 233) Familiarity Bias (episode 149) Status Quo Bias (episode 142) Change Management: It’s Still Not About the Cookie (episode 226) How to Create a Brainy Brand (episode 230) Scarcity (episode 14) The Power of Story, with Michelle Auerbach Our Bias for Novelty and Story Anchoring & Adjustment Relativity  That Time I Went Viral… with Dr. Daniel Crosby (episode 212) Framing (episode 16) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Cost vs Price vs Worth vs Value This Simple Framework Can Help You Sell More of Anything Anomalies The Endowment Effect, Loss Aversion, and Status Quo Bias Human Herding: How People are Like Guppies Brother, Can You Spare An Organ? Basquiat painting smashes record with $110m sale People Try World’s Most Expensive Grilled Cheese How Your Brain Keeps You Believing Crap That Isn’t True

In today's conversation, I am joined by Leigh Caldwell, the founding partner of Irrational Agency. He is a behavioral economist and pricing expert with more than 10 years of experience in applying behavioral science commercially. He is the creator of the System 3 Methodology (which we will talk about a lot in today's episode) as well as being the author of The Psychology of Price, and a frequent speaker at academic and industry conferences. That is actually how Leigh and I met in person -- while we were both speaking at IIEX Europe in Amsterdam this past summer. We had been connected on LinkedIn prior to that, and it was so great to chat in person a bit, and then follow up after for a virtual coffee, which of course led to this episode. My conversations with Leigh really got me thinking about what I believe, what I'm familiar with, and what it might mean to open up and consider how...things might not be exactly as they seem. So, what I encourage you to do as you listen to today's episode, especially if you have been familiar with behavioral economics and behavioral science for a long time, is to be open to this idea. Be open to something that goes against what you believe to be true and wonder, "What might that look like?" I think if you allow it to be, this is one of those ideas and episodes that will really stick with you for a long time -- and I love that! Show Notes: [00:39] In today's conversation, I am joined by Leigh Caldwell, the founding partner of Irrational Agency.  [03:02] Leigh shares his background and more about who he is. He describes himself as a mathematician above anything else.  [04:29] He realized there was something in the world about how people were buying and it wasn’t logical or rational.   [06:20] There were two directions he went after learning about behavioral science. One was pricing because he felt there was a gap in the market with helping businesses set their pricing.   [08:15] Second was that world of what is going on inside the head and what our imagination is made of. This really fascinated him.  [09:27] When it comes to pricing, first understand the value that you are providing as perceived by the customers. Then look at the alternative routes to solve the same problem and how much those cost.  [11:43] What is it worth to the customer to solve this problem and how can you capture as much as possible of that value?   [14:49] You are not your ideal client or customer, so how much you would pay for the thing is not how much the person who needs your services would pay. You often undervalue it.  [16:26] One thing that attracted Leigh to economics was the idea of being able to use math to model human behavior.  [19:12] When you are using a linear path to predict something complex, you are going to end up in a difficult spot.   [21:44] We have to be building, growing, and changing as the field of behavioral science is moving forward.   [24:19] System 1 thinking is fast, automatic, and unconscious - things that really are a gut reaction. System 2, the deliberate mind, is meant to be logical and calculating.  [25:05] There is another kind of thinking that is not captured by either one, and that is the thinking we typically do when we are daydreaming or watching a movie. It is the activity of imagination.   [27:12] Leigh calls this other type of thinking System 3.    [29:25] Melina reads the story from a paper he wrote to help us better understand System 3. In the story, what we are experiencing doesn’t have the logic of System 2 and it is not a learned reaction in System 1.  [31:34] We as humans can generate imaginary emotions and imaginary sensory feelings.   [34:20] If you want to understand people’s real experiences, you have to allow them to bring in all of the accidental influences that occur in real life and the different places that their minds can wander to.  [36:02] There can be real value in how the imaginative process can be useful to brands.  [38:11] Choices are important, but narratives are just as important.   [40:48] By uncovering the existing connections in people’s heads we can show brands how to tap into those stories and play their own part in that customer’s narrative.  [43:07] By uncovering how people really perceived their client’s product they were able to help them tell the right story in their marketing that was consistent with the story that the people already had and wanted.  [44:45] You have to understand who you are talking to and what it is you want them to do.  [47:41] People need to find ways and the right stories to help them through this challenging period, but brands also need to be able to find how they can play a part in customers' stories even in these challenging times.  [48:35] Melina shares her closing thoughts. [49:30] I don't know if there is a System 3 for sure, and what the field might adapt to in the coming years, but it is so cool to realize that we are on the forefront of something amazing. Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: The Psychology of Price, by Leigh Caldwell Branding That Means Business, by Matt Johnson and Tessa Misiaszek Blindsight, by Matt Johnson and Prince Ghuman Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein Predictably Irrational, by Dan Ariely Connect with Leigh:  Leigh’s Website Leigh on Twitter Leigh on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: Leveraging the Power of Prefactual Thinking (episode 232) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Status Quo Bias (episode 142) Questionstorming at KIND/Mars with Beatrix Daros (episode 215) Nudging for Good at Walmart with Sarah Wilson (episode 206) Behavioral Bartending with Maker's Mark, featuring Greta Harper (episode 207) Anthropology, Market Research & Behavioral Economics with Priscilla McKinney (episode 196) Anchoring & Adjustment  (episode 11) Relativity (episode 12) The Truth About Pricing (episode 5) Neuroscience and Psychology in the Business World, An Interview with Matt Johnson  (episode 160) Employee Engagement and Branding, with Tessa Misiaszek (episode 235) What is Value? (episode 8) Time Discounting (episode 51) Do Nudges Work? with Michael Hallsworth (episode 218) Counterfactual Thinking  (episode 68) Disney (episode 144) The Power of Story, an Interview with Dr. Michelle Auerbach (episode 145) The Power of Metaphors for Brands with Olson Zaltman’s Malcolm and Hannibal Brooks (episode 181) Defaults: The "D" in NUDGES (episode 38) Priming (episode 18) Confirmation Bias (episode 102) Familiarity Bias (episode 149) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter

Today’s episode is all about prefactual thinking. Prefactual thinking is closely related to counterfactual thinking, which was episode 68 of the podcast, and this episode originally aired as number 71. In its simplest form, counterfactual thinking is our “what ifs” and “if onlys” where we look back and wonder what might have been if only something had been different. This can be from outside factors or things within ourselves that might have changed an outcome, and our brains are really good at coming up with idealized scenarios where things would have been amazing and perfect “if only” this one thing had been different.  Prefactual thinking is when we do something very similar but are looking into the future. Why did I hand pick this episode for you to listen to and reflect upon today? This coming Friday, my guest in episode 233 is Leigh Caldwell. He will talk about why he believes there is actually a System 3. You’ve heard me talk about System 1 and 2 (or rather, the subconscious and conscious processing of the brain...our elephant and rider) and Leigh says there is something else in there that should be its own category altogether. It has to do with imagining and thinking into the future, so it felt like a good idea for you to have a nice refresher on prefactual thinking today so you are all set and ready to be thinking about this possible System 3 question on Friday. So, as you listen today, think about the possibilities and what might come, and be ready to reflect on this when you tune in for episode 233. (And, if you haven’t already, now is a great time to subscribe to the podcast to be sure you don’t miss it!) Show Notes: [00:38] Today’s episode is all about prefactual thinking. Prefactual thinking is closely related to counterfactual thinking. [01:25] While counterfactual thinking is looking back at how things in the past might have been different “if only”...prefactual does something similar, but looking into the future. [03:39] Goals are so important. As the year is ending you are looking back at what you did, and what you could have done, and also looking forward to what you can do in the future.   [04:33] Counterfactuals are looking back at something that has already happened and essentially undoing it in some way in your mind. Prefactuals are when you look to the future and think about what could be.   [05:54] When you think about what could happen or how you might succeed in the future, studies show you can actually have great benefits in all sorts of tasks.    [07:06] Your brain is driven by its desire to get these chemicals and there are different rewards with each.  [08:15] The treat for the brain is in the build-up, the prefactual, so it wants to think through scenarios over and over and it isn’t always wired to do this in a positive way unless you put in some interventions.    [09:26] Melina shares a real-world email example.  [12:05] There are countless examples because our brains dwell on stuff all the time – they are wired for it. And they don’t happen in isolation; it is easy to jump from counterfactual to prefactual and back again.  [13:18] To use prefactuals for positive behavior change you want to look at the “if / then” and future outcome action ties.   [14:04] The specifics give your brain something to process and remember in the future.  [16:12] After she received an email letting her know about the error, Melina was able to take some time to think about what could happen (prefactual) and because she didn’t dwell too much on what might have been (counterfactual) she could take steps to make it better.   [17:38] One key to using counterfactuals and prefactuals for your benefit is to look for the learning opportunity. [20:56] Knowing the true impact is really important before you send anything out. Your brain is going to blow anything out of proportion with the tools it has in its arsenal.  [22:25] Breathe, assess, question, action, and reflection.  [23:19] Studies have found that people perform better on a task after doing prefactual thinking even if they have no prior experience. This is why role playing and visualization techniques are so important.  [25:34] Moving out of the negative counterfactuals and prefactuals into the positive space is such a useful and versatile skill for everyone.   [26:35] There is always something to learn and always a way through to the other side. You will get there faster and easier if you structure your counterfactuals and prefactuals to the positive.   [26:49] Melina’s closing thoughts Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and Support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: The Psychology of Price, by Leigh Caldwell Get it Done, by Ayelet Fishbach How to Change, by Katy Milkman Thinking, Fast and Slow, by Daniel Kahneman Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein Top Recommended Next Episode: Counterfactual Thinking  (episode 68) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Get Your D.O.S.E. of Brain Chemicals (ep 123) Expect Error: The "E" in NUDGES (ep 39) The Overwhelmed Brain & Its Impact on Decision Making (ep 32) Peak-End Rule (ep 97) Priming (ep 18) How to Set, Achieve & Exceed Brainy Goals (ep 70) The Power of Habit (ep 22) Availability Bias (ep 15) Framing (ep 16) How To Set Up Your Own Experiments (ep 63) The Top 5 Wording Mistakes Businesses Make (ep 2) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  How to Break the Negative Cycle of 'What If' Thinking Correction: Improving Physical Task Performance with Counterfactual and Prefactual Thinking When Thinking It Means Doing It: Prefactual Thought In Self-handicapping Behavior Fixing Your Brain: A Guide to Balancing Neurotransmitters

Today I am very excited to have Dr. Matt Johnson back on the show to talk about Branding That Means Business, a new book he has co-authored with Dr. Tessa Misiaszek (who will be on the show in a few weeks talking about her background and the aspects she brings to this fascinating project). Matt was on the show in 2021 talking about his other book, Blindsight (which he co-authored with Prince Guhman, who was also on the show last year.) Matt is a professor, researcher, and writer, who received his Ph.D. in Cognitive Psychology/Neuroscience from Princeton University in 2013. His focus now is on bridging the gap between science and business; to accomplish this, he works across several fields including behavioral economics, consumer neuroscience, and experiential marketing. A contributor to major news outlets including Forbes, Entrepreneur, Business Insider, and VICE, and a writer for Psychology Today, he regularly provides expert opinion and thought leadership on a range of topics related to the human side of business. He advises both start-ups and large brands and has served as an expert-in-residence to Nike’s Innovation Team in Portland, Oregon. Matt is so much fun and a wealth of fascinating information. We are going to talk about so many awesome things today so you don’t want to miss it.  Show Notes: [00:42] Today I am very excited to have Dr. Matt Johnson back on the show to talk about Branding That Means Business, a new book he has co-authored with Dr. Tessa Misiaszek. [02:48] Melina and Matt share the similarities in their lives.  [04:08] Matt shares his background and how he found himself in the world of neuro and behavioral science.  [05:53] His second book, Branding That Means Business is written for the business practitioner on how to build brands and how companies can create enduring brands with consumers and markets.  [08:49] One of his goals when writing a book is to write for as broad of an audience as possible within popular science, but also for very niche behavioral science readers.  [11:11] Every experience you have consuming content is potentially going to be featured in some sort of written word.  [12:22] Twitter can be an amazing resource. Incredible business minds and academics are sharing on Twitter.    [15:15] The rule of the brand is to create trust. Trust is an absolute game changer when it comes to consumer dynamics.      [17:55] When information or an advertising claim comes from a brand you trust it is much more System 1 oriented and it changes the decision-making process to be much easier and free-flowing.  [19:59] Building a brand is like building a house. The goal isn’t to just build the house and structure, but ultimately to build a home that creates a positive emotional experience and a sense of warmth and belonging.   [22:39] Interactions within the brain and how you feel about it — those associations are so key.  [23:16] A brand is an element of the company. It is a tool of the company that adds unique value above and beyond the products themselves and it helps the company differentiate itself from industry competitors.   [26:36] We need to know what our brand associations are so we can change them or embrace them.   [27:46] How the brand is sculpted at the level of the brain and the consumer and how that is aggregated over the entire market can be very different.    [30:36] After research, KitKat completely changed its marketing in Japan and it had a huge impact.  [31:50] So often companies and people end up really making things so much harder for us than they have to be. If you let go and have the current take you then you can get somewhere more meaningful.  [34:28] Our job as the brand manager is not to be the guardians of the brand image but as the caretaker of it.  [36:20] Micro and nano influencers have smaller audiences, but because they are very engaged followers that can be very effective.  [38:14] Many people are willing to partner with brands that mean something to them.   [40:26] Among younger consumers there is a “learned allergy” to top-down advertising. This is one of the reasons why TikTok has been so huge with product advertising.  [43:22] Organic marketing and integrated content are becoming more and more attractive.   [46:14] If it is perceived to be a small brand the expectations are that it is going to be a brand that you really know, you could directly interact with it, and you could possibly co-create with the brand. This differs from big brands who should adopt this different strategy.  [47:59] Differentiation and consumer perception are important. It really matters to consider consumer perceptions in terms of those expectations.   [50:31] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [52:20] Knowing what is going on in the world and finding how you can relate your brand to the current conversation is so key to using branding effectively in your business. Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Branding That Means Business, by Matt Johnson and Tessa Misiaszek Blindsight, by Matt Johnson and Prince Ghuman Semiotics in Retail, by Rachel Lawes The Speed of Trust, by Stephen M.R. Covey What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You, by Melina Palmer Connect with Matt:  Matt’s Website Matt on Twitter Matt on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: Neuroscience and Psychology in the Business World, An Interview with Matt Johnson  (episode 160) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Why We Like the Things We Like, with Prince Ghuman, coauthor of Blindsight (episode 172) The Power of Story, an Interview with Dr. Michelle Auerbach (episode 145) The Speed and Economics of Trust, an Interview with Stephen M.R. Covey (episode 148) Using Semiotics in Retail with Rachel Lawes (episode 191) Priming (episode 18) Novelty and Stories (episode 54) Framing (episode 16) How to create a brainy brand (episode 230) Social Proof (episode 87) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  The Atlantic Annie’s Newsletter

Today’s episode is all about branding — and specifically, my insights for how to incorporate brain science and behavioral economics insights so you can have a brainy brand that resonates better with your potential customers, clients, members, etc., and is one of those coveted “favorite brands” in the mind of your consumer.  When your brand is thinking about becoming a beloved “favorite” it is important to consider the experience people have with you. Becoming a favorite is a lot like dating and marriage. On a first date, you are looking for all sorts of data to help categorize someone as a hero or a zero — you want to be able to cut your losses before you invest too much. It’s the same with brands. It is important to not make mistakes. You especially want to be on your best behavior early on in the customer relationship to build up that “favorite” status. The tips in this episode will help you leverage behavioral economics to do just that (including what your brand needs to learn from your favorite actors). Now is a great time to be thinking about your brand and goals for the next year. What changes can your brand make and where is it worth the investment in becoming a more brainy and beloved brand? Keep that in mind as you listen today. Show Notes: [00:41] Today’s episode is all about branding — and specifically, on my insights for how to incorporate brain science and behavioral economics insights so you can have a brainy brand that resonates better with your potential customers, clients, members, etc., and is one of those coveted “favorite brands” in the mind of your consumer. [01:26] When your brand is thinking about becoming a beloved “favorite” it is important to think about the experience people have with you, and becoming a favorite is a lot like dating and marriage. [04:14] A brand can take a generic item and turn it into something more.  [05:37] Marketing and branding are not the same things. Marketing is all the one-off things that you do to get your name out there.  [07:45] A brainy brand knows what it is trying to achieve and builds quantitative and qualitative research projects to test, learn, and grow.  [08:26] Truly great marketers (like great scientists) are great questioners. [10:55] Our brain makes associations whether we ask it to or not.  [12:35] Priming is really related if you want to make sure you have a brainy brand. You want to make sure you are associating your brand properly with the right things.  [15:01] It is important to be strategic and thoughtful about what it is you are doing for your company.   [16:51] You need to use the associations of the brain to make it as easy as possible on the customer. Be strategic. Think about how you can make it easy, as well as where they might make an error so you can help them avoid missteps and make the right choice.  [18:31] Above all, a brainy brand knows that everything matters.   [19:47] Brands have personalities just like people and for good reasons. Known personalities create expectations in our brains.   [21:09] Smart brands know the work is never done.   [24:04] Method acting is a lot like business branding because they both require a lot of preparation and understanding of things that may never be brought up. [25:16] Brainy brands know everything about who their brand is as if it were a person or a character.  [26:31] The other important thing to remember if you want a brainy brand is that perception is reality.   [27:28] Brainy brands need to have everyone on board rowing the boat in the right direction.   [28:35] Behavioral economics and other studies of the brain look into why people do the things they do and how to use insight to predict what they might do in the future.   [29:14] Melina’s closing thoughts Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and Support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Branding that Means Business, by Matt Johnson & Tessa Misiaszek What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You, by Melina Palmer Blindsight, by Matt Johnson & Prince Ghuman Contagious, by Jonah Berger How Brands Grow, by Byron Sharp Top Recommended Next Episode: Matt Johnson (episode 227) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Why We Like the Things We Like, with Prince Ghuman, coauthor of Blindsight (episode 172) Peak-End Rule (episode 97) Priming (episode 18) How to Set, Achieve & Exceed Brainy Goals (episode 70) The Power of Habit (episode 22) Availability Bias (episode 15)) Framing (episode 16) Surprise and Delight (episode 60) Reciprocity (episode 23) Disney: A Behavioral Economics Analysis (episode 144) Apple Card: A Behavioral Economics Analysis (episode 42) Starbucks: A Behavioral Economics Analysis (episode 73) Questionstorming at KIND / Mars with Beatrix Daros  (episode 215) The Overwhelmed Brain and Its Impact on Decision Making (episode 32) Get Your D.O.S.E. of Brain Chemicals (episode 123) Expect Error: The "E" in NUDGES (episode 39) How To Set Up Your Own Experiments (episode 63) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Unconventional Wisdom How to Make Your Content Go Viral Dogs on the Street, Pumas on Your Feet: How Cues in the Environment Influence Product Evaluation and Choice 15 Actors Who Went to Seriously Extreme Measures for a Role HR and Marketing: A Natural Partnership

Many companies and managers have prided themselves on being strong, always showing confidence in the face of any crisis, and ensuring that people never show weakness or vulnerability. But is this the best approach? Does unwavering strength make a team stronger? Does exposing your weakness increase the likelihood that people will use that against you? What is the best path for a company and how should it encourage its teams to act? That answer is coming to you as we dig into the episode and learn all about vulnerability loops and why they are so critical for fostering strong teams.  Show Notes: [00:40] Today is a very exciting episode talking about something really critical for fostering strong teams – the vulnerability loop [02:46] Before we get into the model and what a vulnerability loop is, I want you to take a moment and think about the people you are most closely linked to – those you have a really strong bond with. The people you trust wholeheartedly. Those who you know have got your back no matter what. [05:05] A shared experience where the participants were vulnerable creates a trust bond that is hard to break, even after decades and otherwise drifting apart. [06:57] There are five simple steps in the vulnerability loop, a concept that is attributed to Jeff Polzer, Harvard professor in the department of organizational behavior, but was really popularized by Daniel Coyle when he included it in his book, The Culture Code. Even though they may seem random, every vulnerability loop follows the same five steps. [08:47] To make it a LOOP you can’t just acknowledge their vulnerability, it isn’t enough to say, “Oh? Why is that?” or something…you can do that too, but you need to reveal something vulnerable about yourself. [09:51] And you don’t have to share the exact same thing, but instead it needs to be something that makes you feel a little anxious or nervous to share, you need to feel vulnerable. I get that you want to be able to get trust and closeness without exposing yourself or having that discomfort, but it doesn’t work that way. [11:08] You want to hear their vulnerability and then you share a little something to let them know they are not out on the ledge alone and that you are not going to let them fall. You want to show them that you are there to support them to create that ongoing loop of trust.  [13:57] The listeners feel more connected to me because I am willing to share those moments of vulnerability. It is a little uncomfortable but a really important part to be connected to all of YOU!  [15:05] Well, while we don’t have to share our deepest, darkest secrets with our teams or be weepy, fragile messes, being strong, silent, unwavering, and confident all the time isn’t going to build real trust and bond a team. We need to be willing to get vulnerable. [15:54] As Polzer said, “People tend to think of vulnerability in a touchy-feely way, but that’s not what’s happening.” “It’s about sending a really clear signal that you have weaknesses, that you could use help. And if that behavior becomes a model for others, then you can set the insecurities aside and get to work, start to trust each other, and help each other. If you never have that vulnerable moment, on the other hand, then people will try to cover up their weaknesses, and every little microtask becomes a place where insecurities manifest themselves.” [17:01] The first person has to go out on the limb, to make the vulnerable leap to start the conversation – to trust that the other person will reciprocate and catch them…and to keep the moment from stopping and falling flat. The second person is key to keeping the loop going, to opening up a little more to show that they can be vulnerable too – and while it doesn’t have to be only vulnerability all the time, this is something that needs a little boost back in – a continual jolt of vulnerability – to keep the loop going. [17:57] Our eyes scan the world around us constantly for potential threats and are perpetually bringing in and processing information – 3 times per second on average. So, if you have a blurred background on (or a really bad virtual one) it is, essentially, sharing continually that you don’t trust people enough to let them see the real room you are in. I know that isn’t your intention but that doesn’t really matter as the brain is going to make its own association. [20:29] One more piece of good news is that you don’t need to be vulnerable all the time! This isn’t a constant state of uncertainty and stress, but a few key moments that can be paying trust dividends over time are really important.  [21:22] When there is increased trust, things take less time and cost less money. When there is decreased trust. or a lack of trust, they take more time and cost more money. Trust until people give you a reason not to and learn from it (don’t be a doormat) but also have a short memory, especially for little stuff. [22:20] Trust is key to getting things done in business, and one of the best ways to build trust is with the vulnerability loop. [23:30] In this climate of people feeling undervalued at work, like they aren’t appreciated and they don’t matter, this is such an affordable way to help them to know that they do matter. You don’t have to invest in expensive programs or wellness packages but if you don’t have the budget for them it doesn’t mean you can’t do anything. You can encourage a little bonding and vulnerability and it can go a long way. [26:05] Coyle’s questions are a good place to start as you think about question prompts for your team. But asking these types of questions were found to make people feel 24 percent closer to the strangers they went through the questions with than those who had the easier types of questions like in the first set.  [26:52] Melina shares some of the questions she really likes from the list of 36, especially for teams.  [29:59] You don’t have to have the same exact item that you share with someone else, but the flip of that is that it is really important to not judge someone else’s vulnerability. [30:28] Being the second person in the loop is key to it being able to form. Make an attempt to be more attentive to the way someone is sharing their message with you. [31:21] One other important thing to remember, is to trust first. Be ready and leap and know that the right people will catch you. Don’t get discouraged if someone shuts you down – try again. Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Influence (new and expanded), by Robert Cialdini The Speed of Trust, by Stephen M.R. Covey You’re Invited, by Jon Levy What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer Daring Greatly, by Brene Brown Top Recommended Next Episode: Using Behavioral Science to Build Connections, with Jon Levy, author of You’re Invited (episode 150) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Unity (episode 216) Dr. Robert Cialdini and the (Now!) 7 Principles of Persuasion (episode 157) The Speed of Trust, with Stephen M.R. Covey (episode 148) Change Management: It’s Still Not About the Cookie (episode 226) Reciprocity (episode 23) Biases Toward Others – Including Groups (episode 46) What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You (episode 225) Game Theory (episode 62) Herding (episode 19) Social Proof (episode 87) Time Pressure (episode 74) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  How showing vulnerability helps build a stronger team Activating Teams to Fight Burnout and Create Joy in Work

Today’s episode is all about the fascinating world of game theory. This episode originally aired on August 23, 2019, and was episode 62 of the podcast. There are a couple of reasons I’ve selected this to be our refreshed episode this week. For one, with last Friday’s episode featuring Annie Duke talking about her new book Quit…you can’t think about Annie without thinking about poker, and game theory is so related to that.  One of my favorite insights from game theory, which you’ll hear me talk about more during the episode, is the difference between playing to win and playing not to lose. As you will hear today, these two things may seem similar, but they are actually very different. And as you reflect upon the episode today (whether it is your first time or something you’re revisiting) consider your own life and work and let’s build upon the lessons from Friday’s episode with Annie about quitting, and how winners need to quit in order to win. Tip: understanding the rules and what it will take to win (so your emotions don’t get the better of you) will help you to win any game you are playing. Show Notes: [00:37] Today’s episode is all about the fascinating world of game theory.  [01:46] You need to know when to be gritty and when to quit.  [03:31] Humans aren’t rational. Humans don’t always make choices that are fully rational. We try to game the system or play the odds and choose routes that are not in our best interest – especially when we think someone may be treating us unfairly.  [05:19] In behavioral game theory we need to consider how revenge, fairness, and personal gain all play to the outcomes. The 3 main games in game theory are the ultimatum game, the prisoner's dilemma, and the dictator game. [06:37] In purely rational economic terms it is best to keep the full $10 for yourself. There is no consequence for keeping it and no one will know. In reality, people would give away an average of $3.  [08:19] You are playing the odds of being seen, feeling guilty, or whether or not that person will resent you. Whether or not you see each other or will see them again play a big part in your behavior.  [10:18] History has a lot to play in the actions people take. Existing relationships help determine actions.  [12:39] It is important to understand who has what power in each situation when you determine what to offer and think about how they might react.  [14:0312] You can make an extra gesture (surprise & delight) to make a big impact. That first interaction lays a foundation for what people expect and how they feel about you in all your future interactions. [15:58 It is important to understand all the options and variables before taking an action or making an offer.    [17:02] In the prisoner’s dilemma, as a group they are better to both not say anything and take the one-year's sentence. If they look at their individual personal gain or personal loss they are of course better off with no prison time motivating them to say something.  [19:50] As it turns out, a tit-for-tat strategy consistently did best overall. In this way, you cooperate until someone deflects.   [20:31] A quick response and a short memory was the best strategy.    [21:19] In most real-life scenarios most of us are likely to choose to play fair until given a reason not to.  [22:40] As much as we wish it would be, dealing with people is never black and white. There is so much gray impacting every situation and decision.   [23:54] Always have written contracts and agreements. Document to ensure clarity.  [26:23] Game theory is truly around us all of the time.  Pretty much any time you interact with another person, business, or entity game theory comes into play. We play the odds whether we realize it or not.  [29:23] Companies used to be able to take advantage of customers much more if they wanted to. There wasn’t an easy mechanism for them to be punished. Often the punishment hurts much more than if you did the right thing in the first place. [29:52] Melina shares a story about United playing the odds and losing big time.  [32:17] When emotions take hold it can cause people to make bad decisions that they may regret in the long run so try and get some distance and perspective before acting especially if you feel really betrayed and angry.   [33:19] When it comes to games many people are playing not to lose instead of playing to win. Winning is a long game. [36:02] Winners quit a lot of stuff because they know what winning looks like. They know the rules, they know the game, and they can see what is helping them reach their goals and what is a hindrance. Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer Quit, by Annie Duke Thinking in Bets, by Annie Duke How to Decide, by Annie Duke The Speed of Trust, by Stephen M.R. Covey Top Recommended Next Episode: Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away, with Annie Duke (episode 227) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Color Theory (episode 61) Anchoring & Adjustment  (episode 11) Change Management: It’s Still Not About the Cookie (episode 226) The Truth About Pricing (episode 5) What is Value? (episode 8) Framing (episode 16) Surprise and Delight (episode 60) Reciprocity (episode 23) Biases Toward Novelty and Stories (episode 54) Biases Toward Others – Including Groups (episode 46) What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You (episode 225) The Speed of Trust, with Stephen M.R. Covey (episode 148) You Have More Influence Than You Think, Vanessa Bohns (episode 197) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  United Breaks Guitars The Iterated Prisoner’s Dilemma and The Evolution of Cooperation Behavioral Game Theory The Ultimatum Game - Are people rational? The Dictator Game The Psychology of Revenge (and Vengeful People) An Experimental Analysis of Ultimatum Bargaining Behavioral Game Theory: Plausible Formal Models That Predict Accurately (Behavioral) Game theory

In today's conversation, I am joined by Annie Duke, a former professional poker player (widely known as one of the best female players in the world) who also has an impressive and fascinating background in psychology, which she will talk about on the show today. I've been wanting to have Annie on for ages, she has two other fantastic books called Thinking in Bets and How to Decide, and I am so delighted that she wrote this additional book, Quit, which we are talking about today (and really, she talks about all three books in our conversation). I am so honored and delighted that Annie took the time to chat with me for this interview. We had a great conversation and ended up chatting for over 90 minutes (with about 80 of those recorded). Here on the show today, we are cutting that conversation down to fit in under an hour but if you want to hear the full conversation in detail, come on over to the BE Thoughtful Revolution membership group -- it's our free community of behavioral economics enthusiasts from around the world, and you can check out the full video interview and conversation. Annie is a wealth of knowledge and insights, so you will want to glean every extra moment just like I did, I'm sure – be sure to stick around for monkeys and pedestals! Show Notes: [00:40] In today's conversation, I am joined by Annie Duke, a former professional poker player who also has an impressive and fascinating background in psychology. [03:07] Annie shares her background and how she found herself in the world of behavioral science.  [04:41] Her brother was the one who suggested she play poker and she ended up playing poker for 18 years as her profession.  [06:05] After eight years as a poker player she started getting asked to give talks. The first talk she gave was to a group of options traders and she talked about how poker might inform your thinking about cognitive bias. From there she started getting referrals and spending more time speaking than playing poker.  [07:11] In 2012, she retired from poker to spend more time on the business side of things and started consulting and speaking full-time.  [09:13] If you look at anything on Annie’s journey from the time she entered graduate school, it is all decision-making under uncertainty.    [11:09] The more ways that you are thinking about problems and the different frames that you have to ponder these issues you end up bringing something different to the table.  [12:54] Premortems can be very effective if you combine them with other good decision-making tools.  [15:14] If you use prospective hindsight instead of just forward planning, research shows you will generate 30% more reasons for failure or success if you didn’t do prospective hindsight.  [17:14] Self-serving bias is that when bad things happen to us as individuals we tend to blame them on things that are outside of our control.   [19:49] Other researchers suggest that premortems need to be done in groups to be successful.  [22:42] Thinking in Bets was a book that she had really wanted to write for many years, which is about making decisions under uncertainty.  [25:27] One of the things she really talks about in Thinking in Bets is resulting. Resulting is when we look at other people and assume if they have a bad outcome then they made a bad decision and a good outcome is from luck (whereas when we have a bad outcome it is luck and a good outcome is from our good decision making – this is very similar to fundamental attribution error).   [26:55] She wrote How to Decide as a companion, which had more practical tools for making decisions.  [28:23] Annie shares about writing her new book Quit.   [30:44] Most of the decisions you make you can actually probably make faster. The way to decide if you can go faster is by looking at the consequences of getting the decision wrong.  [33:01] We are really bad at exercising the option to quit when the time comes. The option to quit is very valuable.  [35:02] She shares the many Zoom conversations with influential behavioral scientists she had prior to writing her new book about quitting.   [36:36] Science shows that when we quit, we are usually doing it too late.  [38:45] One of the problems we have is that once we set a goal we are immediately in the losses.  [39:20] Annie shares about the California Bullet Train.  [41:51] After getting the project approved once starting the project they realize they have two big problems… (Why didn’t they “see” them before?)  [44:22] Instead of stopping the project, they approved two pieces of track that don’t address the gigantic engineering problems. [46:13] Monkeys and pedestals is an incredibly helpful framework for trying to figure out how you approach projects to find out the information you need to find out the fastest so you can figure out if it is something you want to stick to.  [47:26] She shares the monkeys and pedestal's story. You have to start with the monkey (the hard part) of the problem first.  [49:11] When you do but up against hard things you tend to turn to pedestal building rather than to quit (similar to bikeshedding).   [50:28] You should definitely tackle the monkeys first. [51:51] You follow the premortem by looking at the monkeys and pedestals. You figure out what the monkeys are and then you change your plans according to that.  [53:20] Kill criteria are what you could see or find out in the future that would tell you that you ought to quit.  [55:01] There is no point in tackling any low-hanging fruit if you can’t train the monkey. Figure out the hard problem first.  [57:34] Winners quit a lot. That is how they win. Winners sample a lot of stuff, settle on a course of action, tackle the monkeys first, and if the world gives them another signal they switch. [58:41] Winners pick the right things to stick to and they abandon everything else.  [60:52] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [61:08] Thoughtful quitting, stopping doing things that aren't serving you anymore isn't a failure -- that is a win. That is a sign of doing great big amazing things! If you never quit, you can never win because you will be spread too thin. Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Thinking in Bets, by Annie Duke How to Decide, by Annie Duke Quit, by Annie Duke Superforecasting, by Dan Gardner and Philip E. Tetlock How to Change, by Katy Milkman Power of Regret, by Daniel Pink Connect with Annie:  Annie’s Website Annie on Twitter Annie on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: Game Theory (episode 62) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Loss Aversion (episode 9) Framing (episode 16) The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem (episode 126) 3 Steps to Better Decision Making, An Interview with Matthew Confer (episode 158) Counterfactual Thinking  (episode 68) How To Change, an interview Dr. Katy Milkman (episode 51) Fundamental Attribution Error (episode 92) Planning Fallacy (episode 114) Precommitment (episode 120) Hindsight Bias (episode 167) Bikeshedding (episode 99) Status Quo Bias (episode 142) Endowment Effect (episode 139) Survivorship Bias (episode 110) Mental Accounting (episode 56) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  A Slight Change of Plans Podcast with Maya Shankar Annie’s Newsletter

Today’s episode is a very special one, it is our first-ever edition from the vault. What does that mean? Well, for one thing, we now have TWO episodes of The Brainy Business coming to you each week, starting with this one. It is an episode from the back catalog that I think is super relevant and timely for you right now, so it got a little refresh.  Why this one and why today? Firstly, it is because change is ever-present in our lives and businesses, and in this age of The Great Resignation, quiet quitting, returning to work, hybrid offices and so much more. Managing and leading through change is something everyone seems to be talking about these days, so this episode is one I think will help a lot of people. As you will hear in this episode, change is “not about the cookie” it is more about the way a change is presented than anything else, so you have the power to influence how others react to whatever information you are presenting.  Remember change is in the micro-moments, so it doesn’t have to be anything big. Look for those small tweaks that could make a huge difference.  Show Notes: [00:38] Today’s episode is a very special one. It is our first-ever Tuesday episode (double the brainy!!) and our first edition from the vault.  [02:14] Change is in the micro-moments, so it doesn’t have to be anything big. Look for those small tweaks that could make a huge difference. [03:41] Melina shares the cookie story. I want you to imagine that we are walking down the street... [05:56] It’s not about the cookie, the change, or the price. It is about the way the information is presented.  [08:28] Change management is leading through change.   [09:02] Change and getting people to change is all about selling them on your perspective and getting them to buy in and commit even when money is not being exchanged.  [12:02] Our subconscious brain is like a small child. We would all like to think we have grown past this point, but much of our decision-making is still done on this level.  [14:25] Consider the ripples. One small decision or word on an advertising campaign or a change conversation can have a different impact on different people and it is based on their perspectives.  [16:30] The overall brand and campaign message needs to be consistent. You also need to identify what an individual in each of these groups is supposed to do when they see the message and what they need to hear to get them to take the next step.   [18:46] We often run a message for consistency's sake across everything without thinking about what those people need to hear, where they are coming from, and what matters to them. We think about the group as a whole instead of considering the individuals and what they need in that moment to take the best course of action.  [20:41] When confronted with change our brains are trained to revert to a place of fear and they are very good at dwelling on small items.  [21:56] The endowment effect: our brains favor things they own over other things.  [23:55] Studies show it takes double the joy felt by a gain to outweigh the pain felt by a loss.  [26:07] When given the choice people tend to go with the status quo and favor it very heavily…especially when there are many options presented.  [28:45] Change management conversations are more likely to have the brain flagged and on high alert.  [31:32] Be thoughtful of the way the meeting or discussion is framed or called together. If you are delivering bad news or presenting a change you want them to buy in on, you don’t want to oversell the meeting.  [33:58] You want to make sure the document is outlined in a way that helps them come to the best conclusion themselves so their brain takes ownership of the change you are going to propose to them.  [34:46] When you are proposing a big change you need to do your homework. When the stakes are high your prep work needs to be significant as well. [37:09] Putting in the groundwork allows you to have advocates. Having advocates is so key in branding.  [38:57] When people are on edge and likely to get a fight or flight response, triggering on scarcity could work against you if not done properly.  [42:49] Framing is everything when it comes to change management. It isn’t what you say, it is how you say it.  [43:49] You need to know why you want them to take the step, why it matters, and get them invested in the proposed outcome. [46:20] Framing the benefits and talking about the good stuff instead of helping them dwell on the bad is how you get changes to move forward.  [47:49] You want them to feel comfortable coming back to you with questions. You are allies in this.  [49:24] What tiny moments of change do you see around you for your next initiative in the way you will be presenting change? Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer Nudge, by Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein Thinking Fast and Slow, by Daniel Kahneman Quit, by Annie Duke How Minds Change, by David McRaney Top Recommended Next Episode: What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You (episode 225) Already Heard That One? Try These:  The Truth About Pricing  (episode 5) Loss Aversion (episode 9) Endowment Effect (episode 139) Status Quo Bias (episode 142) How to Sell From the Stage (episode 6) Herding (episode 19) Social Proof (episode 87) Reciprocity (episode 23) Framing (episode 16) Priming (episode 18) Scarcity (episode 14) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  The Endowment Effect, Loss Aversion, and Status Quo Bias

Today is a very exciting day, as it is the last episode before I’m officially a multi-book author, because my second book, What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You will officially be out and hitting mailboxes on Tuesday, October 11! There is something else very, very exciting kicking off on Tuesday as well, so be sure to stay to the end to hear all about that…  In this episode, we are going to do a deep dive into the book. I talk about what you can expect to find within it, why I wrote it, who it is for, and (because this is quite possibly one of the things I get asked about the most these days) some fun insights into the writing process and my tips for you in creating your own content (whether it is a book or something else). Show Notes: [00:39] Today is a very exciting day, as it is the last episode before I’m officially a multi-book author, because my second book, What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You will officially be out and hitting mailboxes on Tuesday, October 11! [02:34] This book has been in the works for a long time, really since episode seven came out of the podcast way back on August 3, 2018. My framework for change has grown and adapted a bit over the years, but even through: creating a 10-week course I teach virtually via the Human Behavior Lab at Texas A&M University, countless speaking engagements and corporate training, and the full process of writing this book…it has really kept its bones. [04:29] What are my secrets for book writing? The first secret is that I’m naturally a good writer and I’ve spent a lot of time writing and editing all sorts of content from 3-word ads to 70,000 word books and everything in between. I also dedicate the time I need to be able to write. [06:14] My writing is made possible by a very supportive family, especially my husband Aaron. I have dedicated both of my books to him because truly, The Brainy Business and all its content would not be possible without him. [07:38] It isn’t all writing every moment of every day, the brain needs breaks. I was able to go on a few jogs by the ocean which was nice and I also had some mindless crafty entertainment. [08:47] Taking the time to let your mind exist and make connections is so so so important when working on content. Building those contemplative moments into your day is really useful. [11:30] You may have heard this one already, but you need to just get stuff out of your head and onto the paper (virtual or otherwise). My process starts with some sort of an outline. I usually do this with software that allows for virtual cards or sticky notes that I can move around. [13:07] Once you have your initial outline I recommend starting with whatever feels the easiest. In my experience, this is NOT the beginning. Whatever that easiest thing is, start there and write anything you can to get it out of your brain. [15:41] I wrote the first book in three months. For book two, I was able to start writing in December of 2021 and the full manuscript was due at the first of February; so only two months this time. [17:27] My process allows for strict priorities and focus in short bursts. This lets me give each thing my all until it is done and then move on to the next. [18:09] Done is better than perfect. Sometimes you have to let things speak to you in the moment and go with where you end up even if it is different than you intended.  [21:34] I wrote the book because I could see that this concept of change and understanding biased brains and how they impact our workplace was on the uptick in businesses. I could see that this was going to be critical for businesses moving forward and if I wanted to be on the front end of that wave. [23:39] The book is for people who want to have more influence at work and to make it so change is easier for themselves and everyone around them. [25:01] This book is also set up to help teams of people work together within an organization to get a shared common language and be able to grow together to be better managers that help move a company forward. [26:01] According to Gallup, four out of five current managers do not have the talent required to excel in the job in a way that will help the company and its employees to thrive. [28:16] What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You is here to help every manager—whether they have the natural talent for the role or not—to be excellent at leading their teams through change. If you want to put in the work to be a great manager and are willing to learn and adapt based on the science I present to you in this book, I truly believe you can achieve that goal. [30:11] This book is also segmented into three parts. [31:08] Part 1 is called Big Plans and Micro-Moments and it has four chapters within it. This part is really about understanding our brains, understanding how change works within the brain, understanding what it means to be a great manager, and how to think about change overall.  [31:36] Part 2 is called Biases and Concepts.  [33:18] We are all biased. We are never going to eliminate that from our lives or organizations. Instead of looking to eliminate bias, companies need to look to understand and leverage it.  [36:15] A chapter in this section has one of my favorite openings of the entire book with details of the Challenger disaster and what we can all learn from it.  [37:54] The last section of Part 2 is called Us vs. Them and it digs in on all the ways our brains are biased to look at people who are different from us.  [38:37] The final part of the book is called Change Framework. This last part of the book brings it all together.  [41:30] You can read the first chapter of the book now for free to see if it is a fit for you.  [42:52] BIG ANNOUNCEMENT: We are going to be having episodes coming out twice a week starting this Tuesday, October 11th!  Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You, by Melina Palmer The Voltage Effect, by John List How Minds Change, by David McRaney   How to Change, by Katy Milkman   Top Recommended Next Episode: Temptation Bundling (episode 136) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Bikeshedding (episode 99) What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You: All About Melina’s First Book (episode 147) What is Behavioral Baking (episode 155) How to Organize Your Brain with Behavioral Economics (episode 83) The Voltage Effect with John List (episode 190) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  20 Podcasting Insights and Tips After 200 Episodes of The Brainy Business

Today we are digging in on inequity aversion – which is featured in chapter 12 of my new book, What Your Employees Need And Can’t Tell You, titled “That’s Not Fair!”  Fairness is a fascinating topic and one that is really important in business. We strive to have fair standards in our business practices, in how we pay our employees, and in the offers we provide to customers…but should everything always be perfectly “fair”?  Does it have to be fair? And…what the heck is “fair” anyway? Who decides what is fair? (and is that fair?) Tune in to hear all about it. You will also get to hear why fairness is like air, and what a bunch of capuchins can teach us about work (and why your employees might be ready to throw cucumbers). Listen in to learn all about inequity aversion, why it matters to business, and some tips for how to keep this from being a big problem in your work. Show Notes: [00:40] Today we are digging in on inequity aversion – which is featured in chapter 12 of my new book, What Your Employees Need And Can’t Tell You, titled “That’s Not Fair!” [02:32] Inequity aversion is a pretty easy concept on the surface. We want things to be equal (unless we are the ones getting the benefits…then we tend to be a little more lax in our demands for equality, right?) [03:19] I want to point out that fair and equal are not the same, and furthermore, equality is not the same as equity – remember this is inequity aversion, not inequality aversion. Equality means that everyone is given the same resources and opportunities. Equity recognizes that not everyone has the same circumstances and therefore provides resources in a way that can help receive an equal outcome. [06:02] What is “fair” and who gets to decide? One of my favorite quotes on this is from Mathew Liebermann who said, “Fairness seems a bit like air—its absence is a lot more noticeable than its presence.” [08:22] When we realize we aren’t being treated or paid fairly – or even if we just suspect that something isn’t fair everything else can come to a grinding halt. [11:25] According to a Bloomberg article and research by Joblist of 15,000 workers who quit during this time, 40% said the job market was more difficult than they expected, 20% miss people at their old company (and many of them didn’t think that was going to impact them as much as it did), 17% said their new job is not what they hoped for, 16% realized their old job was better than they realized, and 9% have found themselves in a company with bad culture and management. 14% of those surveyed who had quit their jobs said they regretted it. [14:01] One thing we do know is that we pretty universally dislike and reject things that are unfair, the problem (as you are seeing here) is that what is fair is relative. [16:54] This brings up another interesting facet of inequity aversion – because we hate the inequitable, unfair and unequal, we will sometimes put ourselves in harm's way or give ourselves a worse outcome to keep someone else from getting an even better one. [19:07] A perceived slight from years back could combine with confirmation bias and the focusing illusion so one employee is sabotaging themselves and your team to keep someone in their or another department from “winning” anything. [21:00] Whenever there is a question of fairness, motivation will tank. We become distracted and disengaged regardless of whether we are intrinsically or extrinsically motivated. Incentives and motivation are so important when we think about job performance. [22:01] When it comes to our aversion to inequity, the best thing to do is to make sure your practices and policies (whether it is pay or anything else) are, of course, fair, and equitable to begin with. [23:37] Remember, of course, that something may not be equal and still be fair and equitable. [24:52] Start by asking what you are trying to achieve. [26:12] Next, what are your priorities? [28:04] Understanding the why behind the decision is really important. Some people might still feel slighted, but that is ok you just need to align that with your priorities and the different groups you are working with. [29:18] You have to be looking for the worst way this could be interpreted and what you might have missed. Who aren’t you thinking about? What aren’t you thinking about? Do not skip this step. [30:01] Don’t rush something out and expect people will give you the benefit of the doubt–it doesn’t often work that way. [30:50] Be as open, clear and transparent as you can be with as much as you can. This doesn’t mean you need to publicize how much everyone makes, but you can explain what the wage bands are for each role and why, or if there is an algorithm to determine who gets a bonus or what their base level salary will be or where the cap is, make that publicly known. [32:06] Once you can make it equitable, explainable, AND transparent, it allows the focus to come off of the external motivations and incentives (those grapes and cucumbers) and focus instead on the purpose of their work and hopefully doing a job they love. Everything becomes easier when people aren’t concerned about fairness, inequality, or inequity. Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Drive, by Dan Pink Power of Regret, by Dan Pink What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer How to Have Difficult Conversations About Race, by Kwame Christian Top Recommended Next Episode: Game Theory (episode 62) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Availability Bias (episode 15)) Herding (episode 19) Social Proof (episode 87) Confirmation Bias (episode 75) Focusing Illusion (episode 89) Optimism Bias (episode 34) Cobra Effect (episode 220) Counterfactual Thinking  (episode 68) Prefactual Thinking (episode 71) How to Have Difficult Conversations About Race, with Kwame Christian (episode 221) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Monkey’s Reject Unequal Pay Why Monkeys (and Humans) are Wired for Fairness Millions of Americans Regret the Great Resignation Anomalies: The Ultimatum Game

Today we are digging in on negativity bias, which is featured in chapter 9 of my book, What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You. I also talked about this when Adam Hansen was on the show back in episode 176 and have planned to give it a dedicated episode for a long time, yet it has continued to hang out waiting for its moment in the sunshine – until today! It’s funny, because I think it really says something about my personality that optimism bias was episode 34 and we aren’t getting to negativity bias until nearly 200 weeks later. I’m ok with that, and, I’m so glad that this is finally becoming an episode because it really is a fascinating concept and super important for everyone in life and business. As with all the biases and heuristics you hear about on this show, I’m confident this will be one of those things that really changes your whole life and perspective once you realize it is there and impacting you. It’s shocking how rampant this can be running in our lives and businesses. Today we will cover the four aspects of negativity bias (plus a “bonus” one) as well as ways to think about this in your life and work. Show Notes: [00:41] Today we are digging in on negativity bias, which is featured in chapter 9 of my book, What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You. [03:13] In its most basic form, negativity bias is our tendency to put more emphasis on negative information than positive. [03:57] Negativity bias, putting more weight on the bad than the good. Being on high alert and paying attention to potential threats was key for our survival. This is a good thing and it still serves us well a lot in our life. Sometimes, the negativity bias goes a bit far and can result in phobias or other avoidances that don’t serve us well. [06:20] This is one aspect of negativity bias, where we put way, way, way more weight on the negative input than the positive. Our being a herding species is part of this as well. Being on the outskirts with the herd was something else that greatly threatened our survival back in the day. [06:53] In today’s world, this overweighting of negatives can be problematic and cause a real negative spiral that keeps you stuck; focused on the bad in a way that causes you to ignore all the good stuff. You can choose to focus on the good stuff and, while still learning from the bad, don’t let it have so much more impact on you than the good. [07:46] There are four aspects of negativity bias (as outlined in the original paper). The first is negative potency. It says that even if the two incidents were of the same type and size, they won’t necessarily be felt or remembered the same way. We tend to have longer memories of these negative items than the positive ones and feel them more strongly when they occur. [08:09] The second aspect is of steeper negative gradients. This says that as we get closer to a negative event, its felt more and more – and at an intensity that is more than a positive event. [10:10] Negativity bias is definitely related to loss aversion and they are similar (but not the same). Negativity bias is when people pay more attention to bad news than good news. Loss aversion is when people are more worried about losing something they have than getting something new. [10:42] Now, we move on to negativity dominance. This was sort of covered in the negative potency section, but it is more about how when there is an event, the negative events will make it so our whole impression skews toward the negative. [11:35] It is important to think about the overall experience people are having with you. Even one negative element can drag an otherwise good thing down. [14:22] Knowing that people are going to have this negativity bias – both those presenting the change and those receiving it – is important as you consider how you introduce anything to anyone. [16:42] Our final aspect is negative differentiation, which is about the effort it takes to process an event. The negative stuff is more difficult to process, so it uses up more energy and cognitive resources. That makes us remember it more and for longer. [18:54] Knowing that the negativity bias exists and taking a step back to get out of your own way is important as you look at your own behaviors and actions. [19:54] We are also biased to give people like us the benefit of the doubt and not give that to people who are outside our circle of empathy. [22:02] Contagion is such an important piece and it has one of my all-time favorite examples and lines because it is very memorable and you instantly get the problem and how this can be applied in other areas. “A single cockroach can ruin a bowl of cherries, but an individual cherry will do nothing for a bowl of cockroaches.” [23:53] When you think of reputation, that one negative can contaminate everything else and color your entire perspective of them and everything they touch. [24:35] It is important to realize when negativity bias, and specifically contagion, could be coloring a lot more than it should. [26:44] As we wrap up today’s episode, I want you to think about the negativity bias and how it is impacting you in your life and at work. [28:30] Learn from the negatives and let them sink in, but don’t let them control you and take over everything. [30:25] Make sure to clear out the cockroaches before you work on finding better cherries.  [32:02] Because of the negativity bias, we really love avoiding bad things. If we avoid all the things that have risks associated with them, we will not grow and change, and for both people and companies, that is a problem. [33:58] Pointing out flaws in ideas isn’t always saving you from a mistake. It might be saving you from the thing that could change everything for the better if you gave it a chance. What can you take a chance on today? Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Outsmart Your Instincts, by Adam Hansen Power of Regret, by Dan Pink What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer A More Beautiful Question, by Warren Berger Evolutionary Ideas, by Sam Tatam Top Recommended Next Episode: Optimism Bias (episode 34) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Reframing Annoying Disruptions to Support Innovation, with Adam Hansen, coauthor of Outsmart Your Instincts (episode 176) Priming (episode 18) Reciprocity (episode 23) Loss Aversion (episode 9) Herding (episode 19) Focusing Illusion (episode 89) Confirmation Bias (episode 75) Fundamental Attribution Error (episode 92) Counterfactual Thinking  (episode 68) Peak-End Rule (episode 97) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  The Negativity Bias in User Experience Negativity Bias, Negativity Dominance, and Contagion Why is the news always so depressing? What Is Negativity Bias and How Can It Be Overcome?

In today's conversation, I am joined by Phill Agnew, host of the Nudge podcast. Phill and I have gotten to be friends over the last couple of years and I've been honored to have been a guest on his podcast before, but this is the first time he is joining me here on The Brainy Business. So, you may be wondering…why now? As you'll hear me share in our conversation, one main reason is that Phill has been EVERYWHERE on my social media recently. He is doing some amazing, relatable, applicable work. I love how he is showcasing the simple tests he is conducting to really practice what he preaches in the incorporation of behavioral economics into a business application. In today’s episode, he explains some of his top tips and insights – in a way you can absolutely go through and try yourself. Listen in and then get out there and create your own test to get started! (And share it with us using the social links below.) Small changes can make a big impact.  Show Notes: [00:40] In today's conversation, I am joined by Phill Agnew, host of the Nudge podcast.  [01:15] Phill is doing some amazing work. I love how he is showcasing the simple tests he is doing and really practicing what he preaches in incorporating behavioral economics into business applications.  [03:23] Phill shares about himself, his background, and what he does in the world of behavioral science.  [04:34] In 2019 he launched the Nudge podcast. He launched the podcast to learn more, interview experts, and pick their brains to learn even more. He has been growing the show for the last three years. It is really important to him that everything on the show is applicable.  [06:15] Small changes can make a big difference.  [07:27] Phil shares about his tests on TikTok using the curiosity gap.  [09:25] He found that his curiosity gap-inspired videos made people far more likely to watch the full video and become a follower of his channel.  [11:38] Before launching The Brainy Business podcast Melina went live on Facebook for 30 days to increase excitement.  [13:34] VIDEO TIP: Pack in as much curiosity as you can in the first 10 seconds.  [14:49] He spends a lot of time advertising and testing things out on Reddit.  [16:27] Phill shares about testing social proof. Social proof is the idea that we follow the actions of others.  [17:32] 75% of the time people will give the answer they know is wrong to go with the group. Showcasing an action that other people are doing can be really smart.  [19:08] Applying these small nudges to the way you communicate can make your communications more effective.  [20:14] When testing, your variant and control should be very similar. The only thing that is different is the thing you are trying to test. He uses Google surveys a lot.  [21:17] Fresh start effects can be really powerful. Phill shares about his tests using the fresh start effect.  [23:56] Classic commitment devices can definitely have an effect as well.  [25:38] Phill shares another Google survey he did about podcast cover art and what he learned from the test.  [28:01] Check out Phill’s podcast Nudge. [28:41] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [31:32] As you move forward with the insights from the episode, it is time to overcome your own time discount tendencies and optimism bias. Take a moment now to do something to start applying what you learned in the show today. Now is the time to do one thing. Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: The Choice Factory, by Richard Shotton How to Change, by Katy Milkman When, by Dan Pink Power of Regret, by Dan Pink Sludge, by Cass Sunstein Connect with Phill:  Nudge Podcast Phill on Twitter Phill on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: How To Set Up Your Own Experiments (episode 63) Already Heard That One? Try These:  NUDGES & Choice Architecture: Introducing Nobel-Winning Concepts (episode 35) Creating Content People Can’t Help But Engage With featuring Katelyn Bourgoin (episode 201) Do Nudges Work? with Michael Hallsworth (episode 218) Reciprocity (episode 23) Using Behavioral Science to Build Connections, an interview with Jon Levy, author of You’re Invited (episode 150) IKEA (episode 112) Social Proof (episode 87) How to Finally Change Your Behavior (So it Sticks) (episode 81) How To Change, an interview Dr. Katy Milkman (episode 51) The Power of Regret with Daniel Pink (episode 214) Precommitment (episode 120) Sludge (episode 179) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  The Coca-Cola Experiment Only 2% of People Will Return A Christmas Card From A Stranger Solomon Asch - Conformity Experiment

In today's conversation, I am joined by Kwame Christian, who I believe is our first 3-peat guest! (Though Dr. Marco Palma from the Human Behavior Lab at Texas A&M has technically been on the show three times, once was part of a panel when we launched the certificate program so I am going to say that Kwame is in a class all his own (for so many reasons)). Kwame was also my first guest on the first-ever live show of The Brainy Business on Fireside earlier this week. If you haven't heard of Fireside yet or checked out the show there, and if you don't yet have enough Kwame (I know I never will!) check out the replay within these show notes. Fireside is a new platform co-founded by Mark Cuban where I was recently invited to do a show. It lets the audience come up on stage to participate and ask questions. It is really cool and I’m going to be testing it out for a bit to see if this is a good permanent addition to the content you get from The Brainy Business. So if you want to stay around and have a chance to come behind the scenes and be part of the show, please come join us there. And of course, listen in on this episode as Kwame and I talk all about his new book, How to Have Difficult Conversations about Race.  Show Notes: [00:40] In today's conversation, I am joined by Kwame Christian, who I believe is the first guest to be here on the show three times AND my first ever guest on the live show on Fireside.  [01:42] Fireside is a new platform co-founded by Mark Cuban where I was recently invited to do a show. It lets the audience come up on stage to participate and ask questions. [03:20] Today we are talking all about Kwame’s new book, How to Have Difficult Conversations about Race, which officially comes out on September 13th.  [05:18] Kwame shares about himself and his background. Kwame is an attorney, does work in negotiation, and has a background in psychology.  [07:27] Kwame shares his journey in writing his new book. He wants to be where the toughest conversations are.  [08:47] He is not here to teach people how to think about race. He is here to offer guidance on how to talk about race.  [11:11] We are all biased in different types of ways and we need to think more broadly about bias. People need to have a more empowered stance when it comes to bias.  [12:32] Bias is real and it is going to play a role so why don’t we take the time to calibrate and manage the role of bias in our favor? It is a strategic tool we can leverage to our advantage.  [14:22] We are biased against bias.  [15:18] Let’s live with the fact that we have biases and learn to manage them.  [17:22] If we are not making any mistakes that might be an indication of us not interacting with people that see the world differently than us.  [18:11] We have to be outcome-oriented in our conversations. We need to know our goal and then reverse engineer a strategy for that goal.  [20:04] We need to recognize that we need to be aware of the biases but not fear them. Biases make us human.  [23:07] Kwame shares a true story from his book about a man named Daryl that tries to convert KKK members. He has converted over 200 members.  [25:51] We have more persuasive power than we realize.   [28:27] In these conversations we are not going to try to win.  [30:02] His new book can be used by anybody that has any goal in a difficult conversation.  [31:54] Anything that does not violate a physical law is negotiable. We can negotiate anything, we just need the right mindset.  [34:05] Conflict is an opportunity. These difficult conversations provide us with opportunities. We just need to be curious and listen.  [36:26] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [37:29] Not every battle is yours to fight. Choose where you can have or want impact and go full force, one strategic decision at a time. Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Finding Confidence in Conflict, by Kwame Christian How to Have Difficult Conversations About Race, by Kwame Christian What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer How Minds Change, by David McRaney What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer Connect with Kwame:  American Negotiation Institute website Kwame on Twitter Kwame on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: Introducing Kwame Christian and How to Use the Compassionate Curiosity Framework for Difficult Conversations (episode 107) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Using Anchoring in Negotiations, an Interview with Kwame Christian (episode 146) Confirmation Bias (episode 102) Anchoring (episode 11) Focusing Illusion (episode 89) Fundamental Attribution Error (episode 92) Familiarity Bias (episode 149) How Minds Change with David McRaney (episode 210) Status Quo Bias (episode 142) Framing (episode 16) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  The Brainy Business LIVE on Fireside Article Melina Wrote About NASA’s Leadership Strategies That Enabled the Moon Landing for Inc Magazine

Today, we get to talk about a very fun concept known as the cobra effect or the cobra problem. It is something I included in my upcoming book, What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You, and I was very surprised at some of the early readers who work in the field and wrote comments like “WOW!” or called out this concept by name in their endorsement blurbs for the book. As I have said on the show before, there are hundreds of concepts, biases and heuristics in behavioral economics and behavioral science that are impacting our actions every day – it is near impossible to keep up with all of them, and sometimes you find a little golden nugget like this one which can be a new discovery for people even when they are experts in the field. I’m definitely not saying that I am the first person to talk about it or that no one knows about it. Rather, when I realized that it might be a little more obscure than I thought, it became a clear contender for its own dedicated episode sooner than later – plus it is awesome and the story of how it got that name is really interesting. Wanna hear that story and how you can use the cobra effect in business? Listen in… Show Notes: [00:41] Today, we get to talk about a very fun concept known as the cobra effect or the cobra problem. It is something I included in my upcoming book, What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You. [03:18] It all started way back when the British ruled India and the city of Delhi was infested with cobras. In order to help with the problem, the British set up a bounty and would pay anyone who brought in a cobra skin to help clean up the streets and keep people safe…but things didn’t work out quite as intended. [04:45] And while the effect got its namesake from this cobra incident, it is by no means an isolated problem. Apparently, there was a very similar problem in Hanoi in 1902 when the French put in their sewer system, which essentially became a rat superhighway. [06:21] Just like the cobras, when the French got wise of the scheme, they did away with the bounty and everyone let their rats go free creating an even worse (quickly multiplying) problem. [07:49] Our next example comes from Bogota, Colombia, which tried to cut down on pollution and congestion on the roads in 2008 by limiting how often you could drive. [09:42] In my research I also found a story where the government of Quebec gave considerably more money to mental health programs than to orphanages from 1940-1960. So, to try and help those orphaned children who otherwise would have had nowhere to go, the Catholic Church of Quebec reportedly misdiagnosed many children with mental illnesses to get more funding. [11:10] The main lesson from the cobra effect is that “no loophole goes unexploited.” Incentives are great and they can absolutely work, but you need to be really thoughtful about what someone might do to benefit from whatever you are proposing.  [12:16] It is always so important to look beyond the surface solution and consider the problem you are really solving before you move forward with a course of action. When you think about the problem, it is important to get out of your own perspective and understand what someone really needs and what is practical for them. [13:58] You need to consider the problem you are trying to solve AND how it lines up with the real behavior of other people, as well as what they have control over and what you have control over in the new world you are proposing. Nudges and other tactics can only get you so far. You also have to really get out of your own way and think about how someone might see this differently than you. [15:41] There are lots of valid and useful incentives and not everyone is going to take advantage of the loophole or even see it…but if the loophole is big enough and there are enough people willing to jump through it that can be a time where your solution makes the problem worse. [17:42] Every decision has an impact – even the decision to do nothing – and changing one thing can change many things that are related even if you don’t think about them (and it isn’t always in a positive way). [19:11] It is important to spend some more time thinking about those possible loopholes, and it is important to get into the mindset of the person who would be in the situation. [19:49] The ability to be “in the moment” with someone else, to empathize and imagine we are part of that experience and show “How might we?” is so valuable and such an amazing skill. When you put yourself in that space, you can think differently, and that is really helpful when you are looking for exploitable loopholes. [21:03] Melina shares questions you should ask if you are considering implementing a payout (use your free worksheet to follow along).  [22:19] Even small incentives can cause people to look for loopholes and to find opportunities for their own benefit. [25:38] Rules need to be put in place to adjust for possible loopholes. Maybe there are restrictions that need to go in place, but if there are too many restrictions, take a moment to consider if the plan is a good one or if it is time to go back to the drawing board. [27:54] It is better to be thoughtful about these loopholes and restrictions up front instead of looking back after the fact and regretting the choices you could have made differently once you have the power of hindsight. [29:02] If you haven’t already, will you consider pre-ordering a copy of my upcoming book, What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You? In it, I talk about the cobra effect, and so many other important concepts from behavioral science and how they can be applied to business to help teams work and communicate better together. Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! Learn and support The Brainy Business: Check out and get your copies of Melina’s Books.  Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Choice Hacking, by Jennifer Clinehens Freakonomics, by Stephen Dubner & Steven Levitt Behavioral Insights, by Michael Hallsworth Drive, by Dan Pink What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer Top Recommended Next Episode: Nudging for Good at Walmart with Sarah Wilson (episode 206) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Do Nudges Work? with Michael Hallsworth (episode 218) Counterfactual Thinking  (episode 68) Secrets of Motivation and Incentives, Tim Houlihan Interview (episode 109) Motivation and Incentives at Work with Kurt Nelson (episode 187) Where CX and Behavioral Science Meet, interview with Jennifer Clinehens, author of Choice Hacking (episode 141) The Power of Regret with Daniel Pink (episode 214) The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem (episode 126) Incentives - The "N" In NUDGES (episode 36) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  The Cobra Effect: No Loophole Goes Unexploited What is the Cobra Effect The Cobra Effect The Most Ironic Examples Of The Cobra Effect Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Nancy Harhut, cofounder and chief creative officer of HBT Marketing. She loves getting people to take action and specializes in blending best-of-breed creative techniques with behavioral science to prompt response – online, offline, and in-person. She has spoken around the world, including numerous appearances at SXSW, and has been named one of the 10 Most Fascinating People in B2B Marketing, a Social Top 50 Email Marketing Leader, and a Top 40 Digital Strategist. Her articles and work have appeared in Admap, US Ad Review, Target Marketing, DM News, Graphis Magazine, B@B Magazine, Who’s Mailing What, Copywriting Insider, and “Open Me Now” by H.G. Lewis. Prior to co-founding HBT Marketing, Nancy held senior creative management positions with Hill Holliday, Mullen, and Digitas. She’s helped some of the world’s biggest brands create successful campaigns. Nancy and her teams have won over 200 awards for digital and direct marketing effectiveness, for clients such as AT&T, H&R Block, the GM Card, Dish Networks, and Nationwide. Today, we get to talk about her first book, Using Behavioral Science in Marketing, which just came out this week here in the U.S. Dive into the conversation and get ready to take action.  Show Notes: [00:44] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Nancy Harhut, cofounder and chief creative officer of HBT Marketing. [02:05] Her first book, Using Behavioral Science in Marketing just came out this week.  [04:20] Nancy shares about herself, her background, and how she found herself in the world of behavioral science.  [06:01] She took principles and research from behavioral science and applied/tested them in marketing.  [07:37] Anything she could find that might give her clients an advantage or extra edge was something she wanted to explore.  [10:20] It is important to test so we know what is working and what doesn’t work.  [11:10] Nancy’s examples in the book are very tangible, clear, easy, thorough, and thoughtful.  [13:49] Social proof is incredibly powerful. Nancy shares examples of using social proof with her clients and the results. [16:31] Nancy shares why she wrote her new book. People were often asking if she had a book, including her now publisher Kogan Page.  [16:54] Behavioral science and marketing absolutely work. Writing a book helps many more people to benefit from it.  [19:19] She wanted to create a book that was short on science and long on applicability. She wanted it to be practical, easy to read, and actionable. (“Mission accomplished!” says Melina.)  [21:30] She started her book with emotional and rational thinking because it was a good foundational factor and from there she started to talk about behavioral science principles that are strongly linked to emotion.  [23:24] Having more good books in the world is always a positive thing.  [25:44] If you present somebody with a couple of options as opposed to just one thing, they are much more likely to make a buying decision at the moment. If there are two options the question automatically changes to “Which of these two do I want?”  [28:29] When saying “You have to make a choice and if you don't, someone else is going to make it for you” leverages autonomy bias. There was a bigger response because people didn’t want someone making choices for them.  [30:04] Behavioral science is not just for marketing. It is applicable across so many areas and professions.  [33:04] Nancy shares an example of using choice architecture with a client that sold voluntary benefits.  [34:47] They made accepting the meeting the easy choice and the path with the least resistance.  [35:57] Melina shares an example of a blood drive on a college campus. [39:22] Melina shares her closing thoughts. [39:42] You are constantly communicating with people and there are small tweaks to your messaging that can make all the difference. [40:13] Melina’s new book, What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You is coming out on October 11th, 2022.  [42:04] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Using Behavioral Science in Marketing, by Nancy Harhut What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer Influence (Expanded), by Robert Cialdini Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein Connect with Nancy:  HBT Marketing Nancy on Twitter Nancy on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: What is Behavioral Baking? (episode 155) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Dr. Robert Cialdini and the (Now!) 7 Principles of Persuasion (episode 157) Dan Ariely Interview: Discussing Shapa, the Numberless Scale (episode 101) NUDGES & Choice Architecture: Introducing Nobel-Winning Concepts (episode 35) Sludge (episode 179) Relativity (episode 12) How To Set Up Your Own Experiments (episode 63) Herding (episode 19) Social Proof (episode 87) Loss Aversion (episode 9) Reciprocity (episode 23) Framing (episode 16) How To Change, an interview Dr. Katy Milkman (episode 51) Defaults: Why The Pre-Selected Choice Wins More Often Than Not (episode 20) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  A megastudy of text-based nudges encouraging patients to get vaccinated at an upcoming doctor’s appointment Behavior Change for Good Initiative Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

In today's conversation, I am joined by Michael Hallsworth, managing director for the Americas division of the Behavioral Insights Team, or BIT. Michael was on the show nearly two years ago in episode 125 when he was sharing about his book which is aptly named Behavioral Insights. The reason he is here today is to talk about a debate that has been going on across the behavioral science community for the bulk of this year: "Do nudges work?" Michael wrote an article recently in Behavioral Scientist which laid out all the points in a very clear way and talked about the real question we should be asking (as well as the next steps for the field in the future). I knew he was the perfect guest to come on and speak about this. He does a great job summarizing everything here and I hope you get value from this conversation. It can be hard to look at ourselves, the fields we are in, or ourselves personally, and embrace opportunities for improvement. But, it is so necessary in order to grow, change and thrive. The field is built on solid science, and we have an opportunity to do even more going forward. Listen in to hear all of our thoughts on this hot topic. Show Notes: [00:42] In today's conversation, I am joined by Dr. Michael Hallsworth, managing director for the Americas division of the Behavioral Insights Team. He was on the show nearly two years ago.  [02:37] It can be hard to look at ourselves, the fields we are in, or ourselves personally, and embrace opportunities for improvement. But, it is so necessary in order to grow, change and thrive. [05:00] Michael shares about himself and his background in behavioral science.  [06:56] Nudges guide people to decide while maintaining their freedom of choice.  [08:26] Publication bias is a problem that affects many disciplines (not just behavioral science) in the scientific literature. [11:19] Singular data points are not generalizable in other contexts. Context and testing are key.  [13:22] First we need to understand what is a realistic effect size for some of these interventions and can we get a better understanding of how context affects results.  [15:42] A missing piece of this debate around if nudges do or don’t work is looking at some work that is not affected by publication bias.  [16:59] We do have evidence for the real-world effects of nudging that are not affected by publication bias. Those effects are smaller than the ones in the original study but they are still meaningful.  [19:06] Human behavior is complex. Results vary by context and group.  [21:21] There are factors going into a result that are meaningful which may mean that something doesn’t work in a different situation.  [22:56] Instead of making overall claims we should be talking about some of these ideas a bit like scientists have talked about incentives.  [23:53] We don’t need to oversimplify or oversell because the results are there but they vary in ways we don’t understand (yet).  [25:34] Moving forward we can run multi-size studies so we can explore these differences more systematically.  [27:42] When you take your results together, you should be able to see which idea is more supported.  [29:49] They found that if you thought something was more context-dependent those studies were less likely to replicate success.  [31:35] It’s not about what you know. It is about how you match it to context to produce a result.  [33:56] Behavioral Science “in the wild” is different from behavioral science in the lab. [35:07] Within organizations it can be really hard to start tracing the threads between studies and looking into the connections.  [37:11] Michael shares about his upcoming manifesto.  [39:20] The overriding question he discusses in the manifesto is “How do we help behavioral science tackle some of those bigger questions?” [40:14] “Do nudges work?” is the wrong debate. There are ways we can take behavioral science forward.  [42:02] Anything that has happened so far isn’t bad or wrong. We are learning from what has happened and now we are moving forward.  [44:47] You may not be able to predict in advance all the potential outcomes, particularly if you are intervening in a complex environment with lots of things going on (i.e., the real world with human people). [46:11] Melina shares her closing thoughts. [47:21] The summary of what you heard from Michael is that, yes, nudges do work. And, as I have always said on this show, nothing is perfectly generalizable. [48:44] This idea of looking into the possibilities of more complex systems and being able to be even better at predicting what will happen when and why is fascinating, and something I look forward to being part of researching into the future. Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Behavioral Insights, by Michael Hallsworth Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein How to Change, by Katy Milkman Behavioral Science in the Wild, by Nina Mazar & Dilip Soman Power of Us, by Jay Van Bavel & Dominic Packer Connect with Michael:  Michael’s Website  Michael on Twitter Michael on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem (episode 126) Already Heard That One? Try These:  NUDGES & Choice Architecture: Introducing Nobel-Winning Concepts (episode 35) Incentives - The "N" In NUDGES (episode 36) Understanding Mapping: The "U" in NUDGES (episode 37) Defaults: The "D" in NUDGES (episode 38) Expect Error: The "E" in NUDGES (episode 39) Give Feedback: The "G" in NUDGES (episode 40) Structuring Complex Choices: The "S" in NUDGES (episode 41) How To Use Behavioral Economics to Create Thriving Cities, an interview with Colu (episode 113) The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem (episode 126) How To Change, an interview Dr. Katy Milkman (episode 51) The Power of Us with Dr. Dominic Packer (episode 178) How to Approach Negative Reviews Using Behavioral Economics (episode 163) Common Errors in Financial Decision Making with Dr. Chuck Howard (episode 213) Time Discounting (episode 51) The Power of Us with Dr. Dominic Packer (episode 178) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Making Sense of the “Do Nudges Work?” Debate The effectiveness of nudging: A meta-analysis of choice architecture interventions across behavioral domains No evidence for nudging after adjusting for publication bias Behavior Change for Good Initiative Behavioral Insights Team Website Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I’m joined by Scott Schutte and Dr. Janine Stichter, co-founders of the Healthy Behavior Institute. Scott is a personal trainer, weight loss behavior coach, gym owner, and fitness educator who has successfully guided thousands of people on their fitness journey. Janine (whom he calls “Dr. J”) has been in the field of behavior change for over 20 years as a researcher, author, educator, and practitioner.  Her career has focused on understanding the “why” behind behavior and identifying clear practices that are practical and result in sustained change. As part of her research, she has procured over 14M in federal grants, published over 100 peer-reviewed articles and three books. (As well as chairing 40+ doctoral dissertations and masters committees, providing over 150 international and national presentations, and over 80 workshops.)  Together, they co-founded the Healthy Behavior Institute, an educational platform for fitness professionals and gym owners that specialize in behavior modification. I was particularly interested in having on the show because they are changing an industry where everyone has just sort of accepted that people don't do what they “should,” yet where everyone keeps doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results instead of trying something new. Thankfully, they have, and so I have asked them to enlighten us on the work they do and the advice they would give to others looking to do something similar – in any industry.  Show Notes: [00:44] In today's conversation, I am joined by Scott Schutte and Dr. Janine Stichter (Dr. J), co-founders of the Healthy Behavior Institute. [02:21] The Healthy Behavior Institute is an educational platform for fitness professionals and gym owners that specialize in behavior modification. [05:14] Scott shares about himself, his background, and how his work is related to behavioral science.  [06:06] Dr. J shares about herself, her background, and how her work is related to behavioral science. She has a doctorate in behavioral analysis. [08:22] The case for the need for behavioral science often comes from a health or wellness example because it is an area where everyone knows what they “should” do…but behavior rarely changes.  [09:50] Many times fitness trainers or the industry have misinformation because they are looking at things through their own lens.  [11:50] A lot of us can do something for a period of time that is extreme but we don’t maintain it.  [12:15] Behavior does not persist unless it is being reinforced and serving a purpose.  [12:56] When they talk about the root causes they use the EATS Model - Escape, Attention, Tangible, and Sensory.  [14:21] If we can figure out and help people figure out what the root cause of the behavior is then we can find a replacement that matches that.  [16:09] Your eating behaviors and reasoning can flow throughout the day.  [19:01] Having a guide through these changes is the fast track and going to keep you on point.  [19:55] People go through different stages of life so they have different wants and desires. This is an ongoing process that we need to reevaluate and reconfigure along the way.  [23:16] We need to focus on the minimum we need to do to trend in the direction of our goals. Tracking or journaling can be a short term learning tool but it is not something everyone has to do long term.  [24:26] Your clients are coming with different personalities and different ways they are naturally wired – you need to meet them where they are at.  [25:45] Using tracking or journaling at certain points can be helpful when necessary to educate or just give a better picture.  [28:03] The EATS Model gives you a place to start to try to understand the behavior.  [30:37] We don’t have to adjust everything every day. We could make adjustments a few days a week and still see an impact.  [32:56] Understanding the problem and the behavior shift you are trying to make is so important.  [34:32] Be cognizant of not trying to address the symptom but actually look at the why. [35:55] Behavior is a manifestation of what is going on in our heads. It is just an outward expression and we often need to get past that symptom.  [38:39] In behavior analysis and research the EATS Model is called the four functions of behavior and it applies to all industries.  [39:48] Any one thing can be all of those things (escape, attention, tangible, and sensory) at any given time.  [41:46] Melina shares her closing thoughts. [43:26] Taking the time to explore and explain how every behavior could be a source of Escape, a way to get Attention, getting something Tangible, or being Sensory is a great way to better understand (and potentially shift) that behavior. [45:08] Thank you to Andrew Gavigan for recommending this week’s guest! If you have a recommendation for someone you think should be a guest on the show or a concept or topic you want to be sure I cover please reach out to me through email or social media.  Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Fitness Redefined, by Scott Schutte & Janine Stichter Power of Us, by Jay Van Bavel & Dominic Packer Influence, by Robert Cialdini Good Habits, Bad Habits, by Wendy Wood Tiny Habits, by BJ Fogg Connect with Healthy Behavior Institute:  Healthy Behavior Institute  Dr. J on Instagram Scott on Instagram Top Recommended Next Episode: The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem (episode 126) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Habits (episode 21) Announcing! Certificate in Applied Behavioral Economics from the Texas A&M Human Behavior Laboratory (episode 115) Using Behavioral Science in Healthcare, Interview with Aline Holzwarth (episode 135) Dan Ariely Interview: Discussing Shapa, the Numberless Scale (episode 101) The Power of Habit (episode 22) Good Habits, Bad Habits: An Interview with Wendy Wood (episode 127) Optimism Bias (episode 34) Behavior Change at WW and Beyond, an Interview with Dr. Julie O’Brien (episode 98) Get Your D.O.S.E. of Brain Chemicals (episode 123) Get It Done: Surprising Lessons from the Science of Motivation with Ayelet Fishbach (episode 186) Framing (episode 16) Unity: Cialdini’s 7th Principle of Persuasion (episode 216) Using Behavioral Science to Tackle Addiction (and the Lessons for any Business), Interview with Richard Chataway (episode 134) Common Errors in Financial Decision Making with Dr. Chuck Howard (episode 213) Time Discounting (episode 51) The Power of Us with Dr. Dominic Packer (episode 178) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  EATS Model Become A Certified Behavior Change Coach Andrew Gavigan Fitness Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

A little over a year ago, in episode 157 of The Brainy Business, I was honored to have Dr. Robert Cialdini join me on the show to talk about the new and expanded version of his book Influence, which has sold many, many millions of copies around the world, and it is so impactful even nearly 40 years after its original publishing date. The new version added 220 (pure gold!) pages and a whole new seventh principle of persuasion – unity – which is of course the focus of today’s episode.  The six original principles of persuasion include reciprocity, liking, authority, scarcity, social proof, and commitment/consistency. Most of those already have their own episodes of the podcast, which are linked for you in the show notes along with my interview with Bob when he was on the show. So, why unity? As I said, while I’ve dedicated episodes to several of the initial six principles, including scarcity, social proof, reciprocity, and precommitment…I haven’t done them all yet…so why jump to the end with Unity before “completing the set” so to speak? Listen in to find out why and learn more about the amazing principle of unity.  Show Notes: [00:07] Today’s behavioral economics foundations episode is all about Cialdini's new 7th principle of persuasion: unity. [00:48] In episode 157 of The Brainy Business, I was honored to have Dr. Robert Cialdini join me on the show to talk about the new and expanded version of his book Influence, which has sold multi multi multi million copies and it is so impactful even nearly 40 years after its original publishing date. [03:36] Unity is an underlying principle that runs through all the others. If you have unity, everything else can come easier, so understanding this technique can be impactful in most any approach. (A great reason to jump here first! It also has less info on it when you search since it is new, so I wanted to contribute there, and it has a big feature in my new book, What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You).  [04:54] Melina shares an overview of the first six principles. Reciprocity: when given a gift, even something incredibly small, people feel compelled to give back to the gifter. [05:51] People are more likely to do business with people they like. We are also influenced by people in authority even when they don’t have any expertise in the area we may be asking about. [06:28] Because we are a herding species, we are very influenced by social proof. We also are very influenced by items that are scarce. We find them more valuable, our FOMO and loss aversion are triggered.  [07:04] People like to be consistent and do what they have said they will do.  They also like to do business with people who do what they say they will do. Showing that you have done this is powerful. [08:02] If people aren’t buying what you have to sell, whether it is an idea or a physical product or service or anything else, it doesn’t necessarily mean the idea is wrong or bad. You can often change the way you are presenting the information and enjoy a different result. [08:35] Unity goes beyond liking or social proof and is in the space of how we are the same. It’s not just that I like you, but we are (as they say) cut from the same cloth. When you are part of my tribe, when we are a WE, I become more compelled toward whatever it is you are asking for or offering up. [09:36] We all have a lot of identities that we flow between throughout the day; they don’t have to be weighty to create that connection.  [10:54] It is pretty easy for people to come up with 20 self-defining things pretty quickly off the top of their head.  [12:32] The way we identify with a group can shape the way we see the world around us and the decisions we make. [14:31] A key to unity is finding what is central, core, or defining to both people. [16:25] When you find something that you like about someone else, it creates a connection that makes them, in turn, like you more. [18:03] Ask good questions and know there will be some commonality that will help you to find them more interesting and engaging, and give you something to talk about, and that it is possible they will think of you more fondly as well. [18:22] Know that when you need to ask people for things, your own affinity groups or people who you would say are part of your “I am” group are a great place to start because they are the most likely to say yes to you. [21:11] Bringing one particular aspect of your shared identity to the front of their mind at the right time – making that particular identity you share salient at the right moment – is key for using unity in your life and work communication. [22:17] People are busy and their brains are even busier. Reminding someone of that important detail at the right moment can have a massive impact. [23:32] We form an idea of who we are, what we are about, and the brain is really good at explaining why every action supports the way we see ourselves. [26:30] The main point I want to make is that our busy brains have a lot going on and when you are asking or offering something to someone, the way you present that information matters because the brain will assume that whatever you bring up is being brought up for some reason and it has a lot of weight on the decision the person makes in that moment. [28:46] Unity is an amazing concept that can help you relate better to those around you and have a higher likelihood that things will just flow better and be easier for you. [29:05] Take Melina’s Unity Challenge. Do the 20 statement challenge Dominic talked about in the snip from his episode on The Power of Us. Next, pick three people whom you can practice on finding a new opportunity for unity with. Use your freebie worksheet in these notes to help! [31:23] The second challenge you could take on would be to look at the short term, and if there is someone you need to ask for a favor from or to pitch something to. [32:31] Try out one or both of these challenges and share it with Melina on social media. Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Influence (New and Expanded), by Robert Cialdini The Power of Us, by Jay Van Bavel & Dominic Packer The Power of Regret, by Dan Pink The Influencer, by Brian Ahearn What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer Top Recommended Next Episode: Dr. Robert Cialdini and the (Now!) 7 Principles of Persuasion (episode 157) Already Heard That One? Try These:  The Power of Us with Dr. Dominic Packer (episode 178) Brainy Tips for Ethical Influence with Brian Ahearn (episode 199) Priming (episode 18) Reciprocity (episode 23) Loss Aversion (episode 9) Scarcity (episode 14) Fundamental Attribution Error (episode 92) Social Proof (episode 87) Herding (episode 19) Focusing Illusion (episode 89) Precommitment (episode 120) Peak-End Rule (episode 97) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  How To Ethically Influence People: Interview with Author Brian Ahearn (episode 104) Texas A&M Certificate Program Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

In today's conversation, I am joined by Beatrix Daros, Global Consumer Intelligence Director for Mars, and today we are talking mostly about a project we worked on together for KIND snack bars around healthy snacking and checkout/impulse buying in grocery stores. Beatrix also shares about some technology they used during the pandemic and her advice for others looking to incorporate similar work at their companies. This conversation is a revisit of the session we did together at IIEX Europe in Amsterdam a few weeks back, which was an awesome event -- thank you to Greenbook for having us out for that!  Beatrix is so awesome and I'm delighted that she is joining me on the podcast. The event space in Amsterdam didn't allow for the same easy replay on the podcast, so she was kind enough (pun intended) to do another recording with me here -- so even those who watched the session live in Amsterdam will get something a little different in the episode. We talk about the questionstorming session we did in 2019, the studies they implemented based on that work, her plans for future research, and so much more. Show Notes: [00:43] In today's conversation, I am joined by Beatrix Daros, Global Consumer Intelligence Director for Mars. [01:45] Melina) will be speaking at another upcoming Greenbook event IIEX Behavior in Chicago September 13th-14th. [03:35] The event space in Amsterdam didn't allow for the same easy replay on the podcast, so Beatrix was kind enough (pun intended) to do another recording with me here.  [06:02] Beatrix shares about herself and the work she does.  [07:07] KIND is a healthy snack bar with very low sugar levels, high content of nuts, and very little processing. It is called KIND because we need more kindness in the world.  [08:06] Beatrix shares her history and background.  [10:16] Research tip: the most important thing is really to connect with people from the segments you are working with. (In their case, it was countries.) [12:02] In some countries snacking is very established; it is considered part of the normal routine and part of their culture.  [13:18] How people make decisions related to health is very different across countries. They researched what is affecting these decisions. [15:11] They are doing research in the US, including looking at new products. In the rest of the world, they are looking to establish the brand like it is in the US.  [18:00] Impulse buys matter a lot for the Mars legacy brands. Bars, whether they are indulgent or healthy, are very often bought impulsively.  [20:43] Their expectation is that in the next five years other governments will likely follow what the UK is doing with their health regulations.  [23:18] They started by really trying to understand what goes on in the brain of the consumers and what influences their decisions. They also looked at behavioral science and how they could apply it.  [25:05] Melina worked with their team at a full-day workshop. They started off the day with Melina sharing about behavioral economics, how the brain works, and some specific concepts, and then they went to questionstorming.   [27:26] It is important for everyone to be part of the process even if their idea doesn’t ultimately get selected (this helps with the IKEA effect).  [29:45] Questionstorming was much more inclusive and improved engagement because every question found a space even if it wasn’t part of the first phase. It opened up and really brought people together.  [31:08] Technology was wonderful for their project (especially with the pandemic) because they could learn very fast and get super clear on the outcomes.  [33:19] They decided they would not go back to the way they did research before (in-person) because it was much more time-consuming. Technology can help you speed up and get results in 1-2 weeks. They may then test in stores for 4-6 weeks for validation, but it is still often faster than the old way of testing.  [34:29] Beatrix tip: rely on technology, it is very reliable and we should take advantage of it.  [36:25] The “deep human connection” goes back to the roots of the KIND brand. They were always in touch with the brand-consumer in a natural way.  [37:13] There are three layers where they try to create deep human connections with their consumers. The first layer is to be kind to the body. The second layer is to be kind to the community, and the third layer is to be kind to the planet.  [39:27] They launched a consumer closeness program. The first stream of the program was technology.  [41:19] The second stream of the consumer closeness program is a consumer and associate connect. Every team member is connecting directly with consumers and trying to understand what matters to them.  [44:26] Beatrix shares what she is excited about coming up in the future.  [45:52] There needs to be a healthy balance between using technology and keeping human connections.  [46:51] Since the pandemic, a lot of people became more conscious and we see the relationship between food and eating really changed in a positive way.  [48:09] Melina shares her closing thoughts. [49:58] Even when we have a small part in creating the project, and believe we were truly valued and part of the outcome, it can make a huge difference on whether or not people want to be part of and embrace that change initiative or recoil against it [50:59] The way change is presented is within your control and can help keep this from ever being a problem. This is the focus of my new book, What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You which is on presale now and hits shelves on October 11, 2022. [51:38] Could your team benefit from a questionstorming session? What projects do you have coming up in the next 6-12 months that are too important to fail? I would love to have a conversation with you and see if there is an opportunity for us to work together.  Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer A More Beautiful Question, by Warren Berger Start at the End, by Matt Wallaert Blindsight, by Matt Johnson & Prince Ghuman The Book of Beautiful Questions, by Warren Berger Connect with Beatrix:  Mars Wrigley Website Kind Website Beatrix on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: Nudging for Good at Walmart with Sarah Wilson (episode 206) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Anthropology, Market Research & Behavioral Economics with Priscilla McKinney (episode 196) Behavioral Bartending with Maker's Mark, featuring Greta Harper (episode 207) Why You Actually Taste With Your Nose - On The Sense Of Taste (episode 26) Why We Like the Things We Like, with Prince Ghuman, coauthor of Blindsight (episode 172) Using Ethnography to Understand Your Customers and Staff, an interview with Felicity Heathcote-Marcz (episode 137) Relativity (episode 12) Anchoring (episode 11) Questions or Answers (episode 4) Priming (episode 18) Loss Aversion (episode 9) IKEA (episode 112) NUDGES & Choice Architecture (episode 35) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  The Adventures of Johnny Bunko: The Last Career Guide You'll Ever Need Free Agent Nation: The Future of Working for Yourself Exploit & Explore: Two Ways of Categorizing Innovation Research Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

In today's conversation, I am joined by Daniel Pink; author of five New York Times bestsellers, including his latest, The Power of Regret: How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward (which is the focus of our conversation today). His other books include When, A Whole New Mind, Drive, and To Sell is Human. Dan’s books have won multiple awards, have been translated into 42 languages, and have sold millions of copies around the world. I reached out to Dan while I was writing my new book, What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You (which is now on presale and coming out on October 11, 2022) because I reference his book Drive a few times and wanted him to have a chance to weigh in and make sure I attributed everything correctly (something I do for every mention in my books). I was so deep in writing mode that I didn't realize he had a new book coming out at that time, so I asked him to come join me on the podcast to talk about his newest book, The Power of Regret. You will hear all about it in our conversation of course, but let me tell you, this book did not disappoint. It is full of great examples and extensive research -- it will change the way you think about regret and what it means to be human. You don’t want to miss this conversation where we talk all about it. Show Notes: [00:40] In today's conversation, I am joined by Dan Pink. He is the author of five New York Times bestsellers. [01:51] In this episode we talk about his newest book, The Power of Regret. [03:41] Dan shares about himself and his background. [05:49] He realized in his early thirties what he was doing on the side (writing) should be what he was doing full-time.  [07:12] He shares about the manga comic book he wrote called The Adventures of Johnny Bunko: The Last Career Guide You'll Ever Need. It is a 180-page graphic novel written in the Japanese comic form of manga.   [09:41] The book received a number of awards, including one from the American Library Association.  [12:06] In the first week the book came out he got an offer for the movie rights, which he declined, and he never got another one. (Per the theme of today’s episode…Does he regret it?)   [14:43] Dan’s tips for writing books: When it comes to writing and content creation there is a lot to be said for getting the reps. Start small and work up to writing a book. Listen to the feedback you get. [15:59] When writing a book you have to have a very high bar for whether something is worth writing a book about. Many ideas don’t have shoulders broad enough to carry a full book and they would be better as an article or essay.  [17:20] Writing a book is hard so if you don’t pick a topic that you are deeply interested in it is going to be a profoundly miserable experience.  [19:50] Does your book deserve 9 hours and 300 pages of someone else’s time? And, do you want to live with this for the rest of your life? [21:13] His early book Free Agent Nation was about the rise of people who were working for themselves.  [22:41] At any point in our lives we want to have some exploration but at a certain point, we have to execute.  [25:15] Dan loves sharing what he is working on along the way and getting feedback from others.   [27:14] Not only is regret normal and exceedingly common. Everybody has regrets.  [28:15] We want to use our regrets as information for understanding what our value is and learning to do better.  [29:21] He did two pieces of original research, one was The American Regret Project. It was a very large public opinion survey of the US population.  [30:59] He also did a piece of qualitative research called The World Regret Survey where he invited people around the world to submit their regrets (over 20,000 of them!).  [31:55] He found that people around the world had the same four core underlying regrets over and over again.  [33:42] One of the core regrets is foundation regrets. These are regrets people have about small bad decisions early in life that accumulate and have negative consequences later in life.  [34:23] Boldness regrets are if only I had taken the chance regrets. Moral regrets are if only I had done the right thing. Connection regrets are regrets about relationships.  [36:37] We need to process our regrets and use them as a force going forward. A starting point is looking at our regrets and deciding if they are regrets of action or regrets of inaction.  [38:15] Regret is one of the most common emotions that we have. Everybody has regrets.  [38:30] We have a massive amount of evidence that when we confront and think about our regrets we can use them to make better decisions, solve problems faster and better, avoid cognitive biases, become better negotiators and strategists, and find more meaning in life.  [39:59] Feelings are for thinking. They are signals, data, and information. When you have negative feelings even when it is unpleasant we need to figure out what it is teaching us to use them as a force of progress.  [41:35] You want to have way more positive emotions than negative emotions but a life well lived is not a life of only positive emotions. Negative emotions serve a role and are part of life. [43:43] Discomfort is a sign of growth so you want a little discomfort because that is how we learn and grow.  [46:00] Melina shares her closing thoughts. [48:15] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: The Power of Regret, by Daniel Pink Drive, by Daniel Pink When, by Daniel Pink To Sell is Human, by Daniel Pink A Whole New Mind, by Daniel Pink Connect with Dan:  Dan Website Dan on Twitter Dan on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: Counterfactual Thinking  (episode 68) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Unleash Your Primal Brain, An Interview with Tim Ash (episode 124) Motivation and Incentives at Work with Kurt Nelson (episode 187) Prefactual Thinking (episode 71) Framing (episode 16) How Minds Change with David McRaney (episode 210) Dr. Robert Cialdini and the (Now!) 7 Principles of Persuasion (episode 157) Focusing Illusion (episode 89) Common Errors in Financial Decision Making with Dr. Chuck Howard (episode 213) A More Beautiful Question with Warren Berger (episode 200) Get Your D.O.S.E. of Brain Chemicals (episode 123) Status Quo Bias (episode 142) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  The Adventures of Johnny Bunko: The Last Career Guide You'll Ever Need Free Agent Nation: The Future of Working for Yourself Exploit & Explore: Two Ways of Categorizing Innovation Research Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Dr. Chuck Howard, an Assistant Professor of Marketing in the Mays Business School at Texas A&M University. In his research, Chuck asks questions like, “Why do consumers so often underpredict their future expenses?” and “Why do people who work in the gig economy over-predict their future income?” He then designs simple solutions for these problems that help people improve their financial well-being. Chuck’s research has earned awards from the Society for Consumer Psychology, the Society for Judgment and Decision Making, and the Behavioral Insights Group at Harvard University. Chuck earned his Ph.D. in Marketing and Behavioral Science from the University of British Columbia, and his BA in Economics and Finance from Ryerson University. I met Chuck on a recent trip to College Station and we have had a few conversations since then. Upon hearing about some of his recent research I thought it would be something that you would find interesting (I sure did!) and while it is more on personal financial decision-making, we definitely talk about this from a business aspect, and the insights are relevant to everyone -- especially all the people in the financial industry who I know listen to the show. Show Notes: [00:41] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Dr. Chuck Howard, an Assistant Professor of Marketing in the Mays Business School at Texas A&M University. [03:36] Chuck and Melina didn’t meet in the same way as most guests of the show.  [04:04] Chuck shares about himself, his background (including a “gap decade”), and how he found himself in this space. [06:30] He was able to combine his passion and knowledge of psychology and economics to land on studying consumer financial decision-making. [07:38] Making ridiculously optimistic budgets or underpredicting your future expenses can help a lot of people spend less money. They often spend more than they budget (but still spend less than they used to) as long as they track their spending.  [10:12] Melina and Chuck talk about some weird common sayings and how they don’t always translate around the world. [10:51] There are a number of situations in which you need to have an accurate view of how much you are going to spend in the future.  [13:14] He was motivated to understand why people underpredict expenses and how we can improve their predictions and accuracy. He wanted to help people make better financial decisions to improve their financial well-being.  [14:25] People’s predictions of expenses are deeply grounded in their past experiences. The problem is they are only thinking of the very typical things they have endured.  [16:18] In their research, they never found that the tendency to underpredict expenses or over-predict income is tied to being an optimist. It is simply about what comes to mind most easily when you are making the prediction.  [18:23] Chuck shares about a study they did where they asked people over several weeks to tell how much they spent the week prior, how typical their spending was that week, and how much they think they will spend the following week.  [19:25] Atypical expenses are common in the sense that they happen a lot of the time, but then they are uncommon because it is not the same thing repeated over time so people don’t think they will happen again.  [22:20] If the person you are thinking of is similar to you then it could be helpful to think of their spending. It could help you gain perspective on your spending.  [24:59] To make more accurate expense predictions they prompt people to consider a handful of reasons why their expenses will be different than usual. This helps them think of those atypical expenses and increases prediction accuracy.  [26:23] So far, they have people type out the reason that their budget could be atypical. Writing it down may help because it takes a load off your working memory. [29:00] They were motivated to do budgeting research because there was a debate about whether or not budgets actually work.  [30:08] Even though peoples’ budgets are wildly optimistic and they never end up spending as little as they have budgeted, they still end up spending substantially less than they used to.  [32:23] You have to be tracking your spending against your budget. Once a week is ideal. [34:58] At the end of the day it is typically about understanding why. [36:53] Be very conscious of what information you are giving to people and when.  [38:55] Even if you haven’t hit your budget (because most people don’t), you are still spending less than you used to.  [41:40] They found that budgets are an effective way to decrease spending across a number of different personality traits.  [42:11] Tracking and monitoring your behavior against a goal can be very powerful. [45:21] Melina shares her closing thoughts. [47:40] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Nudge, by Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein Marketing to Mindstates, by Will Leach Sludge, by Cass Sunstein Friction, by Roger Dooley What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer Connect with Chuck:  Chuck on Texas A&M Website Chuck on LinkedIn Mays Business School on Twitter Top Recommended Next Episode: Checking in with Dr. Marco Palma (episode 202) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Inside the Texas A&M Human Behavior Lab (episode 33) Brainy Health Benefits of Nature, with Dr. Jay Maddock (episode 203) Behavioral Bartending with Maker's Mark, featuring Greta Harper (episode 207) NUDGES & Choice Architecture (episode 35) Planning Fallacy (episode 114) Behavioural Science Club: Interview with Co-Founder Louise Ward (episode 118) Optimism Bias (episode 34) How To Change, an interview Dr. Katy Milkman (episode 51) How to Finally Change Your Behavior (So it Sticks) (episode 81) Anchoring(episode 11) Pain of Paying: Why The First Item In A Purchase Is The Hardest: A Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode (episode 59) Using Biosensors to Unpack Human Behavior, with iMotions’ Jessica Wilson (episode 182) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Understanding and Neutralizing the Expense Prediction Bias: The Role of Accessibility, Typicality, and Skewness The Influence of Budgets on Consumer Spending Income Prediction Bias in the Gig Economy Can Behavioral Economics Increase Savings and Member Loyalty? Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Before I introduce you to this week's guest, I want to take a moment to celebrate a very special anniversary...two days before this episode airs, on July 6, 2022, we celebrated the four-year anniversary of The Brainy Business Podcast! Four years, 212 episodes (including this one, of course) and we are also dangerously close to 600,000 downloads of the podcast from over 170 countries, which is so awesome! (Pretty confident this episode will push us over that threshold…) I am so excited to introduce you to Dr. Daniel Crosby. In this episode, we talk a little about his books and the work he does in behavioral science around investing, which is very cool and so relevant. Investing is a time when we tend to throw logic out the window and the subconscious runs a bit rampant. But the main reason he is here today is that he recently had a tweet go viral. It had nothing to do with his work, and seemed like a fascinating opportunity to hear what it was like to create a tweet like that and live in the space of something everyone says they want -- to go viral -- and see what it has done for him personally, for his business, outlook...and any insights on what this says about human behavior that we can keep in mind for all the application in business. As I'm sure you can appreciate, this is so relevant to his work in investing and how people will randomly jump on one bandwagon over another and invest because the herd is doing so even when they haven't done their own research. Check out the episode to hear him tell you all about his viral tweet! Show Notes: [00:48] Two days before this episode airs, on July 6, 2022, we celebrated the four-year anniversary of The Brainy Business Podcast! [02:35] In the episode today, we talk a little about Daniel’s books and the work he does in behavioral science around investing, which is very cool and so relevant. [05:40] Daniel shares about himself, his background, and the work he does. [07:31] He loves studying human behavior and thinking deeply about why people do the things that they do but he didn’t want to do it in a clinical context.  [08:57] He has two popular books: The Behavioral Investor and the Laws of Wealth.  [11:03] The Laws of Wealth is his “ten commandments of investor behavior” and it talks about the power of behavioral principles.  [12:50] The Behavioral Investor is a deeper dive into externalities that are incredibly important but often overlooked.  [14:40] Dr. Crosby’s top investment tips: automate, have a financial process, and get a third-party opinion on decisions.  [16:02] One of the reasons folks have such a hard time investing is because it is so counterintuitive.  [17:40] Our herding instinct does not serve us well in investing.  [20:38] Daniel’s went viral with a tweet.  [22:17] When he figured out what was causing his tooth pain he decided he needed to make better health decisions and gave up Diet Coke.  [23:44] He snarkily tweeted that he had given up Diet Coke over a month ago and he didn’t have any of the joys people told him he would receive.  [24:39] Elon Musk responded to his tweet and it went crazy with over 32 million views and over half a million likes and retweets.  [26:34] Part of what made his tweet go so viral was that there were at least two camps chiming in the comments, especially Diet Coke addicts. It also went viral on TikTok and Instagram.  [28:12] It struck something powerful in two very different groups of people.  [28:39] The most fascinating piece to him was follower count because he initially lost thousands of followers and then he ended up about where he started.  [29:55] His analytics showed that he gained 87 followers from a tweet that 32 million people saw in one day. It shows that going viral in an off-brand way doesn’t do much for you.  [32:28] We spend so much time thinking about going viral and then it often doesn’t help much.  [33:42] It was uncomfortable for him to have the heat turned up that high and know that many people were looking at him.  [35:40] He decided not to use the viral tweet for self-promotion or business because the content was very different.  [36:32] Melina shares an article that she recently wrote for Inc. about Brand Lessons from the Michelob Ultra Guy.  [39:18] Daniel shares about the Ocean Spray guy and his interaction with an intern at Diet Coke. He got a 24-pack and 2 six-packs of free soda.  [42:08] Usually we expect viral posts to be over the top. His tweet was surprising, it was funny and still vanilla.  [44:53] There is nothing so low stakes on the internet that people can’t make a big deal about it. It gave him the sense of the power of a crowd so it actually made him go into his shell a bit.  [47:24] Melina shares her closing thoughts. [47:52] Melina shares Daniel’s full viral tweet. [49:02] We as humans feel this need to strive for that silver bullet...the one thing that will change everything, but in reality, it is a lot of little things that add up to a life and business that makes a difference. [50:45] Don't sit around hoping and lamenting over that one thing that could change everything. Instead, focus on one thing you can do each day to get a little bit closer to your goals and show up where it counts, so people can rely on you and your content. [51:44] Whenever you are listening, will you pay it forward and share an episode with a friend? If you love the Brainy Business, let's share it with more people from around the world who would love to be a little more brainy. None of this would be possible without you, so thank you again for listening, subscribing, sharing, rating, and leaving reviews. I appreciate you! Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: The Behavioral Investor, by Daniel Crosby Laws of Wealth,  by Daniel Crosby Using Semiotics in Retail, by Rachel Lawes The Hype Handbook, by Michael F. Schein What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer Connect with Daniel:  Daniel on LinkedIn Daniel on Twitter Top Recommended Next Episode: Booms, Bubbles and Busts (episode 30) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Precommitment (episode 120) Herding (episode 19) Prefactual Thinking  (episode 71) Counterfactual Thinking  (episode 68) Social Proof (episode 87) What is Value? (episode 8) Status Quo Bias (episode 142) Optimism Bias (episode 34) The Science of Opinions, with Dr. Andy Luttrell (episode 173) Using Semiotics in Retail with Rachel Lawes (episode 191) Designing for Behavior Change, Interview with Dr. Steve Wendel (episode 116) Time Discounting (episode 51) The Hype Handbook, an Interview with Author Michael F. Schein (episode 143) Get Your D.O.S.E. of Brain Chemicals, a Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode (epiosde 123) Creating Content People Can’t Help But Engage With featuring Katelyn Bourgoin (episode 201) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Daniel’s Viral Tweet 3 Brand Lessons From The Michelob Ultra Guy Standard Deviations Podcast Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Wiam Hasanain. Wiam is a seasoned social impact consultant, with 20 years of experience operating at the intersection of policy reform, societal development, behavior change, and civic engagement. She is a problem solver, utilizing data-driven insights to create practical approaches to resolving pressing social challenges on a range of projects and industries. She built her foundation at Unilever, and over the last decade, she has spearheaded nationwide programs in the areas of unemployment, health, financial literacy, sports, and career planning. She has established the structure and strategy for nudge units, set their national agendas, and designed behavioral interventions to serve public policy.  After consulting with Bain and Company Middle East she moved onto a senior role in her native Saudi Arabia; leading the Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) function at a Mckinsey subsidiary and creating nationwide community programs. From there, she spent a decade as a partner at the foremost boutique consultancies in the GCC, leading social impact and behavior change efforts. Her passion is advising on behaviorally informed policies across sectors. Wiam believes strongly in spreading knowledge about the implementation of behavioral change across industries and has published a variety of articles on the practical application of behavioral science and has an MBA from UC Berkeley as well as a master's from the London School of Economics and Political Science. In continuing to have a more global view of the representation here on The Brainy Business, Wiam is our first guest from Saudi Arabia. I'm excited to share some of her work with you on a specific CSR project on the show today. Show Notes: [00:40] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Wiam Hasanain. Wiam is a seasoned social impact consultant, with 20 years of experience operating at the intersection of policy reform, societal development, behavior change, and civic engagement. [01:58] Her passion is advising on behaviorally informed policies across sectors. [04:27] Wiam shares about herself, her background, and how she found herself in this space.  [07:30] She is from Saudi Arabia and has spent the majority of her life there.  [08:16] She worked with a client on a corporate responsibility program that focused on helping the youth in Saudi Arabia find their career path.  [10:41] They agreed that they could help open the youths’ eyes to other careers that were out there as opposed to the traditional STEM careers.  [12:04] Their project was such a success that it ran for three years in a row and kept growing each year.  [14:29] It is really nice for her to see how the social norm has changed and know that they were part of this change.  [16:31] The parents along with the career counselors had to work together to really help the students bridge the intention to action gap. It was also important for the parents to see that these other jobs were acceptable as well.  [18:20] The parents had a different hang-up than the youth. (Know all your audiences and plan accordingly!) [19:55] Wiam shares how they reduced sludge and friction in their project and made things easier.  [21:41] They had over double-digit changes in their perceptions of certain careers. The short-term response was very promising.  [22:27] An RCT is a randomized control trial.   [24:03] You are always adding sludge and removing sludge in various ways. [24:54] Wiam shares how they added some sludge to help with the problem they were trying to solve. They made it difficult for students to leave without going through all the exhibits (to help increase exposure to careers that wouldn’t have been a focus previously).  [26:57] They utilized augmented reality in some of the exhibits so that would be where the majority of the students were drawn (and these were typically for the non-traditional careers to broaden horizons). The most desired careers were also at the end, so you had to have some exposure to the other careers no matter what.  [28:08] There are times when customer experience, behavioral science, and corporate responsibility all come together so be more concerned with your end objective.  [30:18] Whether you think about it or not you are influencing the decisions that people make with the way you put the booths in the space even – so you should definitely think about it! [31:43] Don’t think anything is too small to be considered a small step towards behavioral change. Be thoughtful and intentional.  [32:52] Melina’s three tips for setting up your own experiment are to keep it small, be thoughtful, and test often.  [34:29] Melina shares her closing thoughts. [35:41] My upcoming book, What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, is now on presale and will be in a bookstore near you on October 11, 2022. [36:21] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer A More Beautiful Question,  by Warren Berger Sludge, by Cass Sunstein Friction, by Roger Dooley Nudge, by Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein Connect with Wiam:  Wiam on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: A More Beautiful Question with Warren Berger (episode 200) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Change Management (episode 7) Questions or Answers (episode 4) The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem (episode 126) Social Proof (episode 87) Availability Bias (episode 15) Sludge (episode 179) Friction - What It Is And How To Reduce It, with Roger Dooley (episode 72) NUDGES & Choice Architecture (episode 35) IKEA Effect (episode 112) Herding (episode 19) Checking in with Dr. Marco Palma (episode 202) How To Set Up Your Own Experiments (episode 63) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to introduce you to David McRaney, you may have heard of his first book You Are Not So Smart which is an international bestseller that is now available in 17 languages. He went on to create an awesome podcast of the same name and wrote a second book You Are Now Less Dumb. I highly recommend both of those and his podcast…and today we are talking about his new book, which just came out this week, called How Minds Change. As you will hear us talk about in the interview, this book is a fascinating journey we take along with David as he seeks to answer the question, "How do minds change?" The book is filled with interesting stories, lots of science, and fun anecdotes. I really enjoyed it and learned so much along the way, some of which you can hear about in today's episode. Join us to hear all about it! Show Notes: [00:43] Today I am very excited to introduce you to David McRaney. You may have heard of his first book You Are Not So Smart which is an international bestseller that is now available in 17 languages. He has a phenomenal podcast of the same name. [03:35] David shares about himself, his background, and how he found himself in this space.  [05:30] When his second book came out, he started a podcast. His podcast has been the centerpiece of his world for the last twelve years.  [07:55] David found something that he was interested in and wanted to find the answer to and he started to dig.  [09:01] Don’t jump into anything because you are trying to get rich quickly or because it is the hot new thing.  [10:27] Don’t follow the trends. Take the content you are skilled at and marry it to the thing you are obsessed with. Then plug away at it.  [13:39] Everything that you do builds a skill set that you can laterally apply to other stuff later.  [15:56] He writes his books by taking the reader along with him on the journey so they are able to learn with him.  [16:40] David shares about the cookie segment that he had on his podcast for 100 episodes. He and Melina bond over baking and business. [19:41] He started the cookie segment because of several cookie studies he read and he knew there was a way to put it into his show.  [22:26] He has gotten access to many different people in interviews for the book, podcast, and other work – how can you do the same?  [24:27] You can email anyone and at least they will tell you no, but 75% of the time people say yes.  [25:34] He explains in his emails that he is reaching out because he needs them and it would be a better show/book/project if they are part of it.  [27:33] When people realize that you genuinely care and are interested they are more likely to say yes.  [28:13] One of the biggest parts of How Minds Change is the exploration of “The Dress” and the neuroscience behind it.  [30:37] Reaching out to his connections often led to other connections and allowed him to create even more connections. [33:14] He shares about “The Dress.” The dress is an image that appeared on the internet where people could not agree on what they saw.  [35:23] With the dress, truly you saw it either one color (black and blue) or the other (white and gold) and you couldn’t see it any other way.  [37:32] When we see something that is overexposed we have no choice, the brain lowers the overexposure a bit to try to help us see what the image actually is.  [39:43] Everything you experience is only happening in your brain. Every color you see is an illusion. Colors are things the brain makes.  [42:23] There are two humongous populations of human beings that have had different life experiences, and because of those different life experiences they disambiguate an ambiguous image with a different kind of disambiguation than the other side and this leads to different conclusions. [43:57] When we try to prove that we are right, we miss out on getting to the deeper truth of the matter.  [45:04] Pascal’s team recreated the dress image using Crocs. They used Crocs and paired them with socks because it was an inanimate object with no default color.  [46:49] It seems like older people see white socks version because they have more experience in their lives with socks that weren’t colored.  [48:28] David shares about his new book, How Minds Change. [51:41] His book is an explanation of how people do and do not change their minds, understanding the nature of the resistance, and discovering what you have to do to overcome that resistance.  [54:54] Melina shares her closing thoughts. [55:55] One of my favorite things that David said in our conversation was that you need to "listen your way into changing somebody's mind" -- it isn't about force or proving someone that they are wrong, there is so much interesting work showcased in the book about how people can actually change their own minds when they are asked the right thoughtful questions and someone takes the time to listen. [57:18] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: How Minds Change, by David McRaney You Are Not So Smart,  by David McRaney You Are Now Less Dumb, by David McRaney Indistractable, by Nir Eyal Power of Us, by Jay Van Bavel and Dominic Packer Connect with David:  David’s Website David on Twitter David on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: Confirmation Bias(episode 75) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Dr. Robert Cialdini and the (Now!) 7 Principles of Persuasion (episode 157) Influence Is Your Superpower with Yale’s Dr. Zoe Chance (episode 189) A More Beautiful Question with Warren Berger (episode 200) How to Become Indistractible, Interview With Author Nir Eyal (episode 78) Survivorship Bias (episode 110) Focusing Illusion (episode 89) Priming (episode 18) What is Behavioral Baking? (episode 155) Partitioning (episode 58) You Have More Influence Than You Think with Vanessa Bohns (episode 197) The Power of Us with Dr. Dominic Packer (episode 178) Reciprocity (episode 23) Why Burnt Popcorn Has Derailed So Many Meetings - On The Sense Of Smell (episode 25) Vision Does Not Happen In The Eyes, But In The Brain - On The Sense of Sight (episode 24) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  You Are Not So Smart Website The Dress Strawberry Illusion Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Agnis Stibe, a 4x TEDx speaker, MIT alum, YouTube creator, globally recognized corporate consultant, and scientific advisor. He is the Artificial Intelligence Program Director and Professor of Transformation at EM Normandie Business School, and the creator of the STIBE Method, which we will of course talk about in today's episode. He is also the Adjunct Professor of Human-City Interaction at the University of Oulu, Paris Lead of Silicon Valley founded Transformative Technology community.  While at the renowned Massachusetts Institute of Technology, he established research on persuasive cities for sustainable wellbeing. We talk about his research, how social proof can change behavior when it is made more visible, the importance of testing, why you need to try different approaches for any concept, and so much more. Listen in! Show Notes: [00:43] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Dr. Agnis Stibe, a 4x TEDx speaker, MIT alum, YouTube creator, globally recognized corporate consultant, and scientific advisor. [03:19] Agnis shares about himself, his background, and the really fascinating work he does. He is passionate about helping people, teams, organizations, and societies to get where they want to get.  [04:17] It is our counterproductive psychology that is oftentimes our roadblock to our own success and happiness.  [07:22] Awareness is number one. Once awareness is there, then there has to be a degree of willingness.  [09:33] Not everything is worth coming up the “Slope of Enlightenment.”  [10:23] We have access to the same curiosity throughout our lives. The question is do we allow ourselves to be using it? [12:31] He encourages people to take away unnecessary bias before they start a conversation about AI. [14:13] Together we are on a journey and the only obstacles are our human biases. [15:32] Agnis shares some success stories.  [17:15] After five meetings using their transparent system, everyone was on time.  [18:18] Melina’s second book What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You comes out in October 2022.   [20:11] Many people don’t want to see themselves in comparison with others on the same screen, but that is their resistance speaking.   [22:02] Technology takes away the bias. It is a more reliable perspective that it makes existing patterns more transparent and visible.  [23:51] Agnis shares about The Littery and his role with it.  [26:32] They amplified the effects of that solution by adding a social layer. Technology also played a role in making things more transparent.  [28:28] Humans over our evolution have gained a lot and we have lost some essential awareness of who we are.  [30:42] Thanks to technology we get a deeper and clearer perspective of who we are.  [33:19] Technology has huge impacts. There is bias towards technology.  [34:34] Agnis’ hypothesis: technology is perceived by an average human being the same way an average human being perceives another human being. [36:28] Everything we experience with technology is giving us an opportunity to look at ourselves - the more technology the closer and deeper we see ourselves.   [38:24] The STIBE Method has ten tools split among three major stages. [39:55] Most of the time the problem with failed solutions is that there is not enough awareness of the problem.  [41:33] The final and crucial phase is to make assurance for long-term success. [45:33] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [45:45] The impact of social proof can change when it is made more visible and there is a record. [50:04] Thank you again to everyone who has subscribed, rated, and left those five-star reviews of the podcast. I appreciate you and please keep them coming. Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: A More Beautiful Question, by Warren Berger How to Change, by Katy Milkman What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You, by Melina Palmer The Speed of Trust, by Stephen M.R. Covey Influence, by Robert Cialdini Connect with Agnis:  Agnis on YouTube Agnis on LinkedIn Agnis on Twitter Top Recommended Next Episode: The Littery - Interview with CEO Michael Manniche (episode 75) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Dunning-Kruger Effect (episode 198) A More Beautiful Question with Warren Berger (episode 200) Social Proof (episode 87) Worxogo: The AI-Powered Nudge Coach with Anant Sood (episode 208) AI, Blockchain, Machine Learning, & Behavioral Economics with Manuj Aggarwal (episode 192) How To Change, an interview Dr. Katy Milkman (episode 151) How to Get (and Stay) Motivated (episode 67) Fundamental Attribution Error (episode 192) Get Your D.O.S.E. of Brain Chemicals (episode 123) Optimism Bias (episode 34) Dr. Robert Cialdini and the (Now!) 7 Principles of Persuasion (episode 157) The Speed and Economics of Trust, an Interview with Stephen M.R. Covey (episode 148) The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem (episode 126) Give Feedback: The "G" in NUDGES (episode 40) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Agnis’ Website Agnis’ Research Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Anant Sood, one of the co-founders of the nudge coach Worxogo. What the heck is a nudge coach you ask? It is, by my own definition, an awesome amalgamation of behavioral science and AI to help people be better managers, improve employee performance, and so much more.  Anant is going to share a lot more about it in the conversation, but just know that when I heard about this I absolutely had to profile it in my new book, What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, which is currently on presale to come out October 11, 2022, and to follow that up with this episode. You are going to love this, trust me! Show Notes: [00:41] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Anant Sood, one of the co-founders of the nudge coach Worxogo. [03:54] Anant shares about himself and the really fascinating work he does. For the last 22 years he has largely worked in the area of transformation and organization. [06:05] Before starting Worxogo, one common thing they heard from their customers was that the first 3-6 months after a change things were excellent, but after 6-9 months the change started to taper off. After a chance meeting with Baba Shiv they realized it was not a technology or process problem, but a behavioral problem.  [07:37] Customers wanted to change, but the change didn’t stick and it would just go back to the way it was.   [08:28] Melina’s new book, What Your Employees Need and Can't Tell You, is currently on presale to come out October 11, 2022. (Hooray!)  [10:37] Worxogo uses AI to customize to each individual in a unique way.  [11:35] There are reasons why we don’t follow through on things even when we have the intent and ability to improve.  [14:04] Some people are motivated by competing against themselves and others are motivated by not letting the team down and others are more motivated by beating someone else on the team. Those are all proper ways to motivate people and if you don’t know how someone is going to react you can try one but it might not hit them right. What could be very difficult for a manager is quickly discovered by Worxogo. [15:12] Who we perceive ourselves to be is not always what we exhibit as a behavior.  [17:38] The engine assumes that nobody is motivated by the same thing every day.  [20:13] The system allows each person to be themselves and figure out the right way to help you get, reach, achieve, and exceed your goals even if you work differently from others on your team.  [22:17] As a manager, it gives you the situational advantage for every individual on your team.  [25:53] If managers look at the lead indicators and the activities that their team is doing and you build the habit to talk to your team about those, it builds you as a manager as well.  [27:40] Often organizations have a system, but it just isn’t being used and the nudge coach is very helpful to make sure the tools start getting used.  [29:38] By nature, if you ask more you will get more.  [30:53] Any team where you have a set process, you have some basic CRM in place, and you are looking to increase productivity a nudge coach will deliver the outcome for you.  [31:34] Case studies and their newsletter can be found on their website.  [32:09] Behavioral science can make an impact and this is the future of work. The ways of working are completely changing and the current tools are not enough.  [34:23] Melina shares her closing thoughts. Do you want to hire Melina to do work with your company? Email [email protected] [34:40] A study Melina found in her research said that over 80 percent of people currently in management roles don't have the talent to be a great manager. It also said that 1 in 10 is a natural-born manager, two more can be taught, and the other seven out of 10 are not suited for the job, and using past methods can never be. [37:27] Everyone deserves a great manager. Worxogo can help make that a reality. [39:09] Thank you again to everyone who has subscribed, rated, and left those five-star reviews of the podcast. I appreciate you and please keep them coming. Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Nudge, by Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You, by Melina Palmer How to Change, by Katy Milkman The Behavior Business, by Richard Chataway You Have More Influence Than You Think, by Vanessa Bohns Connect with Anant:  Worxogo Website Anant on LinkedIn Anant on Twitter Top Recommended Next Episode: Introduction to Nudges and Choice Architecture  (episode 35) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Anchoring (episode 11) Habits (episode 21) Motivation and Incentives at Work with Kurt Nelson (episode 187) Optimism Bias (episode 34) Loss Aversion (episode 9) Survivorship Bias (episode 110) AI, Blockchain, Machine Learning, & Behavioral Economics with Manuj Aggarwal (episode 192) Using Behavioral Science to Tackle Addiction (and the Lessons for any Business), Interview with Richard Chataway (episode 134) Combining Artificial Intelligence and Behavioral Economics, with Sam Albert of Behaviorally (episode 166) You Have More Influence Than You Think with Vanessa Bohns (episode 197) When Machine Learning Meets Neuroscience, with Ingrid Nieuwenhuis of Alpha.One (episode 170) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Greta Harper, a Maker’s Mark diplomat. Everyone that has already heard last week’s episode with Sarah Wilson, knows that this week’s episode is resharing a podcast that was recorded while I was a speaker on the live podcast stage at Greenbook’s IIEX North America conference in Austin a couple of weeks ago. It was such a great event!  While at IIEX North America I had the honor of interviewing Greta about the amazing shifts that Maker’s Mark made during the pandemic to support restaurants and their workers when they were under no obligation to do so. Their focus on support and advocacy turned into some amazing programs that made a really big impact (including some work with myself and the Texas A&M Human Behavior Lab). What can your business learn from their approach? Listen in to find out… Show Notes: [00:42] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Greta Harper, a Maker’s Mark diplomat.  [01:52] While at IIEX North America I had the honor of interviewing Greta Harper at Maker’s Mark about the amazing shifts that their company made during the pandemic to support restaurants and their workers when they were under no obligation to do so. [04:50] Greta shares about herself, her background, and what she does at Maker’s Mark.  [06:07] In 2014, she went to Kentucky for the first time, she got to meet distillers, and absolutely fell in love with the business.  [07:19] Learning wasn’t always easy in the supplier world and she vowed that if she ever got to a place of “power” she would make learning easier for everyone that came behind her.  [08:06] Bars and restaurants are that traditional third space in society. This space isn’t work or home. It is that other space where you get away from those things to connect with something different than yourself.  [10:36] The first time she went to Texas A&M was in January of 2020 and she was very excited to start doing lots of research.  [11:54] Humans make on average 35,000 decisions every day and most of those are done on a subconscious level.  [13:20] Greta works in the advocacy sector of Beam Suntory, which is the parent company of Maker’s Mark.  [15:50] When our habits are shifted we only have so much cognitive bandwidth that we are able to give up every single day.  [17:49] Greta and her team were able to focus on other people because they didn’t have to focus on survival. One way their company showed support was to buy food from a struggling restaurant and feed their employees.  [20:22] Consumers were changing their buying habits because they couldn’t go to bars and restaurants. The Maker’s Mark team started partnering with bars and restaurants by doing virtual cocktail classes.  [22:13] They knew that on-premise was always a focus and they wanted to be there for them when they needed support (not just when it was convenient for their company).  [23:37] Maker’s Mark was leaning in at a time when they were truly not getting anything out of it.  [26:07] Helping, advocating for the trade, and educating the trade have always been at the heart of everything that Greta wants to do. This is one reason why it was so exciting to bring in Melina and Jeff from the Human Behavior Lab to do a series of trainings for the restaurant teams – and it has been amazing to see their results in the months that followed. [29:01] The pandemic opened up so many different avenues for them to think differently. They learned so many things.  [31:15] As humans we feel compelled to give back when people give to us.  [33:30] Greta shares what is on the horizon. They are all about sustainability at Maker’s Mark.  [35:51] There is a huge difference between age and maturation. It all affects the end product. Taste and flavor are at the heart of everything they do.  [37:13] Thinking about how you can be doing the right thing in a way that leverages reciprocity.  [38:09] Melina shares her closing thoughts. Do you want to hire Melina to do work with your company? Email [email protected] [40:01] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Marketing to Mindstates, by Will Leach What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer What Your Employees Need and Can’t Tell You, by Melina Palmer Good Habits, Bad Habits, by Wendy Wood The Experience Maker, by Dan Gingiss Connect with Greta:  Greta on LinkedIn Maker’s Mark on Instagram Maker’s Mark on Twitter Top Recommended Next Episode: Nudging for Good at Walmart with Sarah Wilson (episode 206) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Anthropology, Market Research & Behavioral Economics with Priscilla McKinney (episode 196) Marketing to Mindstates: A Discussion With Author, Will Leach (episode 88) Checking in with Dr. Marco Palma (episode 202) Announcing! Certificate in Applied Behavioral Economics from the Texas A&M Human Behavior Laboratory (episode 115) Brainy Health Benefits of Nature, with Dr. Jay Maddock (episode 203) What is Behavioral Baking? (episode 155) Habits (episode 21) Good Habits, Bad Habits: An Interview with Wendy Wood (episode 127) Reciprocity (episode 23) How to Create Remarkable Experiences with Dan Gingiss (episode 185) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Maker’s Mark Website Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Sarah Wilson, Director of Human Experience Research at Walmart. This is a fun episode because we are sharing a live podcast that was recorded while I was a speaker on the live podcast stage at Greenbook’s IIEX North America Conference in Austin, TX a couple of weeks ago.  At IIEX North America I had the honor of interviewing Walmart’s Sarah Wilson about some of the work they are doing in behavioral science including a project we have been working on together around sustainability. Listen in to learn about Walmart’s important sustainability goals, how asking the wrong question can make things worse, and how they are nudging for good.  Show Notes: [00:44] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Sarah Wilson, Director of Human Experience Research at Walmart.  [02:02] At IIEX North America I had the honor of interviewing Sarah Wilson from Walmart about some of the work they are doing in behavioral science. [04:46] Sarah shares about herself and the work that she does at Walmart.  [05:44] Walmart has made a commitment to becoming a regenerative company. They believe in making a healthy planet that has prosperity for everyone.  [06:21] Small changes can make a really big impact when you have a large footprint like Walmart.  [07:10] It takes a thousand years for a plastic bag to degrade. 14 plastic shopping bags is equivalent to a gallon of gas.  [08:35] Research has shown that 95% of the decisions that people make are done on a subconscious level and that includes buying decisions.  [10:05] Being able to send the right message at the right time to get someone to change their behavior can actually be a difficult thing if you are working on the wrong problem.  [12:42] Sometimes the easy answer is not always the right answer.  [15:21] They started with the problem of reducing plastic but also didn’t want to impact the customer experience.  [17:34] We like to think that we are logical and rational people making logical choices in everything we do, but humans aren’t really that way.  [18:18] Often we know that we should do something but we don’t always change the habit.  [20:09] With bag usage we have to find those nugdable spots to help shift the behavior.  [21:27] They started by making sure everyone was on the same page with the problem to solve.  [23:30] It is really easy to find the right answer to the wrong question.  [25:40] Walmart brought in Melina for a workshop to help with their plastic reduction project. They started with the idea of just letting people explore. They focused on the experience journey of the customer and associate separately because their experience journeys with the bags are very different.  [28:29] Sarah shares her favorite insights that came up from the workshop.  [31:18] Really small problems can add up, so they looked at how they could solve the small problems to turn those into big gains.  [32:58] It is really hard to test and experiment in certain environments.  [35:46] When you are trying to do too much, it ends up being too much and you don’t get good results.  [36:41] Look at doing small ongoing experiments instead of too much at one time.  [38:20] Having thoughtfulness about the problem upfront is important. One benefit is being able to be shape the project around what you can test.  [40:37] Customer experience matters. We can add in small nudges that still maintain a good customer experience.  [42:40] Melina shares her closing thoughts. Do you want to hire Melina to do work with your company like at Walmart? Email [email protected] [43:35] Finding new opportunities to incorporate behavioral science nudges into the habits of the associates and customers while maintaining great customer service in the process of reducing plastic is a long-term endeavor. [44:52] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: The Voltage Effect, by John List Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein Engaged, by Amy Bucher Designing for Behavior Change, by Steve Wendell A More Beautiful Question, by Warren Berger Connect with Sarah: Sarah on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem (episode 126) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Framing (episode 16) NUDGES & Choice Architecture (episode 35) Checking in with Dr. Marco Palma (episode 202) Brainy Health Benefits of Nature, with Dr. Jay Maddock (episode 203) Inside the Texas A&M Human Behavior Lab (episode 33) Using Biosensors to Unpack Human Behavior, with iMotions’ Jessica Wilson (episode 182) Habits (episode 21) Sludge (episode 179) The Voltage Effect with John List (episode 190) A More Beautiful Question with Warren Berger (episode 200) Social Proof (episode 87) IKEA Effect (episode 112) The Littery - Interview with CEO Michael Manniche (episode 75) How To Set Up Your Own Experiments (episode 63) Bikeshedding (episode 99) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Texas A&M Certificate Program Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Emily Cadiz, founder, and CEO of Finnegan the Dragon. What is Finnegan the Dragon, you ask? Of course, Emily will tell you all about that during our conversation, but here is the short, teaser version. Finnegan the Dragon is a new company I've had the honor of being an advisor for. This is an organization that is all about improving brain development and language learning for kids using inclusive music.  When I was given the opportunity to be part of the advisory team for this company, I knew it was something I had to do. There are so many amazing things on the horizon for Finnegan the Dragon and I am so excited to finally be able to share what Emily and her team are up to so you can learn all about it! Emily will be sharing about all the great work they are doing, exciting milestones coming up (including your opportunity to be a beta tester for the upcoming game launch), and how to get their free Ebook that came out this week. Listen in!  Show Notes: [00:44] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Emily Cadiz, founder, and CEO of Finnegan the Dragon. [03:40] Emily shares about herself and how she got connected to Melina.  [05:12] She has always been a service provider, teacher, musician, and public servant before starting her own business.  [06:48] She suffered a traumatic brain injury in the classroom, which turned her world upside down.  [07:37] During her recovery she found herself going back to music. She started studying how her own brain was recovering through sound and music.  [09:01] In her research she stumbled upon inclusive music which is how we use music to strengthen the brain multiple times throughout our lives to either cope, acquire, or realign ourselves with language.  [10:29] Going to traditional therapy never helped Emily because it was a reminder to her that she was disabled. Medical interventions can sometimes serve as a consistent reminder that you’re different and that your access point to the world is not the same as everyone else. This was a spark for creating something new with Finnegan the Dragon.  [11:51] If we make this work part of the entire curriculum from a very young age everyone can benefit so you don’t have to make anyone feel different.  [12:31] Developmentally speaking, stages happen at different rates for different children. Finnegan the Dragon wants to make things accessible for everyone.  [14:23] The process of making her brain tired and then letting it repair was the process that music had — it helped her to “sweat” her brain.  [16:35] Melina shares her experience taking college music classes during high school.  [19:43] There are 1.5 billion people that speak tonal-based languages.  [20:56] We can see in a lot of countries where tonal-based languages are dominant or even with people that are studying tonal-based languages, their brains are cognitively able to do things that other brains aren’t.  [21:36] The standards for developmental milestones have gone down. We have 33-34% of kindergarteners needing special education interventions coming into the 2022-2023 school year.  [23:53] If your child is spending more than 30 minutes a day in front of a screen per day with passive engagement their chances of having ADHD or a mood disorder are increased by 50%.  [25:37] Passive screen time is the root cause of a lot of this.  [26:54] Passive screen time is silent participation with the screen. Using your finger doesn’t fully activate your brain for learning either.  [28:02] There needs to be sound, noise, singing, motion, and movement going on for little ones to really understand how their world works.  [30:23] We know it is unreasonable to expect zero screen time (or even less than 30 minutes) so Finnegan the Dragon is an optimized game and accompanying classroom curriculum.  [33:10] Little kids have trouble with r’s at that age, we shouldn’t correct them. We can often encourage inappropriate sounds that are very hard to correct down the road.  [35:55] Tone is equally important at this age to all of your academic subjects. Tone and language develop at the same rate. If we ignore tone we are not strengthening the brain as much as we should or need to be.  [38:20] Music (at home and in schools) are so important for development in all areas of life.    [39:41] Meet Finnegan and learn his story in their free ebook, Finnegan the Singing Dragon. He uses music to help him overcome some things he is facing. Get your free ebook.  [41:38] It is so important to help our generation of little learners be able to have a fighting chance and help all the children be on a level playing field. Will you support them and Finnegan? [42:35] The Finnegan beta game will be coming out in the fall. Sign up for the newsletter to be first to know when it’s available. [44:24] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [47:00] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Finnegan the Singing Dragon, by Emily Cadiz Unleash Your Primal Brain, by Tim Ash Beautiful Questions in the Classroom, by Warren Berger Evolutionary Ideas, by Sam Tatam What Your Customer Wants and Can't Tell You, by Melina Palmer Connect with Emily:  Finnegan the Dragon Website Finnegan the Dragon on Instagram Emily on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: Did You Hear That? - On The Sense of Hearing (episode 27) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Unleash Your Primal Brain, An Interview with Tim Ash (episode 124) Priming (episode 18) A More Beautiful Question with Warren Berger (episode 200) Evolutionary Ideas with Sam Tatam, Ogilvy’s Global Head of Behavioural Science (episode 204) The Power of Story, an Interview with Dr. Michelle Auerbach (episode 145) Disney: A Behavioral Economics Analysis (episode 144) Temptation Bundling (episode 136) Get Your D.O.S.E. of Brain Chemicals, a Behavioral Economics Foundations Episode (episode 123) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Finnegan the Dragon Newsletter Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am so excited to introduce you to Sam Tatam to talk about his fantastic new book Evolutionary Ideas. I got my first peek at this book so many months ago and I have been eagerly awaiting the moment when I can finally share it with everyone. I’m delighted that that day is finally here!  Sam Tatam is the Global Head of Behavioural Science at Ogilvy. He has a passion for understanding human behavior, and his experience comes from a mix of organizational/industrial psychology and advertising strategy. Sam has led behavior change projects across virtually every category and continent. Today, he leads a global team of talented psychologists and behavioral economists to develop interventions and shape the communications of some of the world's most influential brands and organizations. You’re in for a treat! I truly loved Evolutionary Ideas and think you will too! Show Notes: [00:42] Today I am so excited to introduce you to Sam Tatam to talk about his fantastic new book Evolutionary Ideas. [03:27] Sam shares his background and how he got into behavioral science. He is an organizational psychologist by training.  [05:47] Virtual doesn’t have to be worse. Nudgestock looked at what they had available and reframed the idea of what this event could be (without being anchored to what they had done before).  [06:38] He shares their internal conversations about how they approached Nudgestock differently to make that transition (and have amazing results!) in 2020. [07:45] They decided if they were going to do it digitally they wanted to do it big (transitioning from the “Woodstock” of behavioral science to the “Live Aid”).  [09:27] They “followed the sun” and presented through LinkedIn live (with over 128,000 attendees!).  [11:32] Look at challenges that come your way like opportunities.  [12:21] Sam’s new book is called Evolutionary Ideas.  [13:21] The beginnings of his book actually started in 2014 when he did a keynote in Sidney.    [15:03] Six years later a video about biomimicry continued to spark his interest.  [17:13] We are not distinct.  [19:10] It helps us to be more open and see psychological solutions in a slightly different way.  [20:49] Language is so immensely powerful. It helps us to see things in the world and categorically differentiates between concepts.   [21:53] Once you have a language for something, you see it more frequently and easily, and you can apply it more systematically.   [23:27] Context and individual differences still play a role.  [26:10] We don’t always need to be revolutionary. It is not true that big problems need big solutions. (Innovation Myth #1 in the book!) [26:58] Small ideas can have big impacts. We have a series of shared problems that we face. We have also adapted to have shared solutions.  [29:31] Innovation is the revolution of the contradiction.  [31:05] If you understand what connects us (across species and other developments) then you can borrow from each other and learn together.  [33:36] There is a rich and vast resource of inspiration in the world around us.  [35:12] The brain makes decisions the same way regardless.  [36:58] If you can reframe in more human terms, solutions are all around us to help us solve our problems. You are probably not as unique in facing your challenges as you think you are.  [38:38] Questions can be really helpful for us to have a bit more of a checklist approach to creativity.  [41:50] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [42:37] Take comfort in knowing that any problem you have has already been solved before. [45:09] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Evolutionary Ideas, by Sam Tatam Alchemy, by Rory Sutherland Speed of Trust, by Stephen M.R. Covey A More Beautiful Question, by Warren Berger Ripple, by Jez Groom & April Vellacott Connect with Sam:  Evolutionary Ideas Sam on Twitter Sam on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: Unleash Your Primal Brain, with Tim Ash (episode 124) Already Heard That One? Try These:  A More Beautiful Question with Warren Berger (episode 200) Using Behavioral Science to Build Connections, with Jon Levy (episode 150) Framing (episode 16) Anchoring (episode 11) Priming (episode 18) Bikeshedding (episode 99) The BIG Effects of Small Behavior Changes in Business, with Jez Groom and April Vellacott (episode 131) Behavioural Science Club, with Co-Founder Louise Ward (episode 118) The Power of Fast-Choice & Implicit Testing with CloudArmy’s Keith Ewart (episode 183) Herding (episode 19) Reciprocity (episode 23) The Speed and Economics of Trust, with Stephen M.R. Covey (episode 148) Change Management (episode 7) Loss Aversion (episode 9) Scarcity (episode 14) Relativity (episode 12) Time Discounting – I’ll Start Monday Effect (episode 51)  Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Nudgestock Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

While I was recently in College Station visiting the Human Behavior Lab, I had the joy of meeting Dr. Maddock when he came by to chat with us for a bit. I hadn’t met him before, but in learning about his work and research it was clear that we had to do an interview. Thankfully, I had my equipment with me and he had some spare time to talk about some of the incredibly cool stuff he and his team are doing.  Dr. Maddock is a professor in the department of environmental and occupational health at the school of public health at Texas A&M University and is also the co-director of the Center for Health and Nature. He serves on the Brazos County Board of Health. Not to mention he is editor in chief of the Journal of Healthy Eating and Active Living. He has authored more than 130 scientific articles which have been cited more than 5000 times, plus his research has been featured on/in The Today Show, BBC, CNN, Eating Well, Prevention and Good Housekeeping and he has given lectures around the world. This isn’t even all of his bio, but I wanted to let you know a little bit about this awesomeness before you hear about the cool stuff he is doing. Listen in to hear all about the connection between nature and our health. It is really amazing! Show Notes: [01:16] Dr. Maddock is a professor in the department of environmental and occupational health at the School of Public Health at Texas A&M University and is also the co-director of the Center for Health and Nature. [03:47] Jay shares about his background and what he does. [05:16] They are really looking at how natural environments change health. Spending time in nature really changes your health. [05:59] They are now trying to understand what is the perfect dose of nature and how they can use some of the models to get more people into nature. [07:46] Virtual reality lets us break the senses up. They can do a study experimenting with only one sense.  [08:40] They are trying to figure out the essential pieces of nature that we need for healthy benefits. [09:47] People like different types of nature.  [10:49] The more that we feel we are in the environment, the more effect it has on our physiology.  [11:29] There are so many questions we can answer in virtual reality that would be difficult to do in person.   [12:48] Making environments immersive and interesting is important for people. Being in real nature is always best for us, but since that isn’t always possible, it will be great to have other options.  [14:49] How we can integrate nature into our surrounding and environment is important.  [15:55] They have been looking at the effect of travel and nature. So many times when we go on vacation we want to go to some beautiful natural spot, but we also have an effect on the environment.  [17:34] The ability to virtually tour places that are untouched would be really cool.  [18:11] The biggest thing with health and nature is it doesn’t work without conservation.  [18:45] One of the other things they have been working on is looking at some of the behavioral theories that we use and how we adopt these to increase people’s time in nature.  [21:27] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [23:53] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: The Behaviour Business, by Richard Chataway Never Go With Your Gut, by Gleb Tsipursky What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You, by Melina Palmer Evolutionary Ideas, by Sam Tatam How to Change, by Katy Milkman Connect with Jay:  Texas A&M University School of Public Health Jay on Twitter Jay on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: Checking in with Dr. Marco Palma (episode 202) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Inside the Texas A&M Human Behavior Lab (episode 33) Announcing! Certificate in Applied Behavioral Economics from the Texas A&M Human Behavior Laboratory (episode 115) Using Biosensors to Unpack Human Behavior, with iMotions’ Jessica Wilson (episode 182) The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem (episode 126) Vision Does Not Happen In The Eyes, But In The Brain - On The Sense of Sight (episode 24) Why Burnt Popcorn Has Derailed So Many Meetings - On The Sense Of Smell (episode 25) Why You Actually Taste With Your Nose - On The Sense Of Taste (episode 26) Did You Hear That? - On The Sense of Hearing (episode 27) Why Picking Something Up Makes People More Likely To Buy - On The Sense Of Touch (episode 28) NUDGES & Choice Architecture (episode 35) Priming (episode 18) You Have More Influence Than You Think with Vanessa Bohns (episode 197) Using Behavioral Science to Tackle Addiction (and the Lessons for any Business), Interview with Richard Chataway (episode 134) How to Avoid Disasters When Returning to the Office, with Dr. Gleb Tsipursky (episode 175) Adjusting Your Mindset: Tips To Overcome Imposter Syndrome And More (episode 13) AI, Blockchain, Machine Learning, & Behavioral Economics with Manuj Aggarwal (episode 192) The Overwhelmed Brain and Its Impact on Decision Making (episode 32) How to Set, Achieve & Exceed Brainy Goals (episode 70) How To Set Up Your Own Experiments (episode 63) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Texas A&M Certificate Program Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today’s episode is an update on all the exciting stuff going on at the Human Behavior Laboratory at Texas A&M University. Last week I was able to spend two full days in the Human Behavior Lab (one of my favorite places in the world if I’m honest) and today’s episode is featuring the director of the lab, Dr. Marco Palma.  This is actually his third time being on The Brainy Business podcast. (He might be the first one to do that…?) Since the first time he was on the show (way back in episode 33 when I visited the lab for the first time) we have done so much together, including creating the certificate in Applied Behavioral Economics. I am honored to teach so many amazing courses for that program which has led to relationships and conversations with wonderful people around the world. (Sneak peek! Some of those projects are going to be featured in the coming weeks, and I am very excited to showcase more of my own work in the podcast.) The lab has done tons of experiments since I was there in January 2019 for that first interview, and about 40 of them have been published in the last few years. Don’t worry, we won’t try to cover all of them today. Instead, Dr. Palma and I selected a choice few that really resonate and can be applicable for listeners like you. Show Notes: [00:52] I spent two full days last week in the Human Behavior Lab at Texas A&M University.  [01:33] Dr. Palma has been on the show before (this is actually his third time – I think he might be the first to do that).  [05:29] There have been many changes since the last time I featured the lab on the show: in terms of the infrastructure, they are hiring new people, and students have graduated and started their own labs.  [06:43] ] One of the fascinating parts about studying human behavior is that we are all, to a certain degree, experts.  [08:26] Marco’s tips for choosing between a PhD, masters or a certificate program like the one we have at Texas A&M.  [10:04] It is an exciting time to be at Texas A&M because of all of the different dimensions of human behavior that are being studied from different angles.  [12:05] The lab has done tons of experiments since I (Melina) was there in January of 2019 and about 40 of them have been published. [13:05] Dr. Palma shares about their charitable donations experiment.   [14:20] In the paper they concentrate on matching 1-to-1 versus giving seed money with charitable donations. The matching scheme is supposed to motivate people to give because then their money can go further.  [17:04] The general idea is that matching funds are always a good idea because they encourage others to donate, but as Dr. Palma shows, there could be a negative behavioral message being shared underneath the surface that actually decreases donations in this type of approach.  [19:10] Being able to communicate that a percentage of your money goes directly to the charity goes a long way and is a way to differentiate yourself. You want to be able to stand out and be a high-quality charity.  [20:10] Next Dr. Palma shares about their calorie labeling experiment. In this paper, they are looking at the policies requiring large restaurant chains to display the calorie content of food on food menus. The intention of the policy was for people to realize the number of calories in food and act accordingly in trying to reduce calorie consumption. [22:57] Some studies have shown this works, some show that people don’t change their consumption, and others show that they eat more calories when the numbers are shown on the menu. How can all three things be true at one time? Dr. Palma shares about their research and why relativity matters. [24:32] You’re not going to change how you eat in response to the calories if you expect something to have a lot of calories because you didn’t really learn anything new.   [25:43] It’s dependent on the menu you see, your expectations, and realization of reality. In this context you can have scenarios where you increase calorie consumption, you make no changes in calorie consumption, and in which you actually have a reduction which is the intention of the law. [28:32] In another paper they were looking at decision-making under time pressure.  [29:49] Once you have a set (number of choices) we are very good at optimizing the thing that we like the most.  [31:04] However, generating a choice set is very difficult for us to do (businesses should focus on this!). If someone else constructs the choice set for us and gives us a choice among 3-5 options, we are actually pretty good at choosing something that we would probably like. We tend to choose things we value a lot.  [32:15] The less cost we have to invest in making a decision will lead to an increase in satisfaction. Not only is the business going to gain, but the customer is also going to be happier.  [33:00] Making decisions when you are hungry or emotional tends to change the way that we act.  [34:58] In another paper looks at how hunger might change our cognitive capacity.  [36:22] They found there was no difference in the cognitive performance of normal-weight individuals whether they had the option to order food or not. Obese individuals had a lower performance relative to the normal weight individuals so they were more affected by being hungry – unless they were able to pre-order their snack. Why?  [37:51] The obese individuals anticipated the food and the anticipation was enough to increase their cognitive capacity. (It essentially eliminated the negative impacts of feeling hungry.) [39:37] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [41:44] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Influence is Your Superpower, by Zoe Chance You Have More Influence Than You Think, by Vanessa Bohns What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You, by Melina Palmer The Voltage Effect, by John List The Elements of Choice, by Eric Johnson Connect with Human Behavior Lab:  Human Behavior Lab Website HBL on Twitter HBL on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: Announcing! Certificate in Applied Behavioral Economics from the Texas A&M Human Behavior Laboratory (episode 115) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Inside the Texas A&M Human Behavior Lab (episode 33) Using Biosensors to Unpack Human Behavior, with iMotions’ Jessica Wilson (episode 182) The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem (episode 126) Influence Is Your Superpower with Yale’s Dr. Zoe Chance (episode 189) You Have More Influence Than You Think with Vanessa Bohns (episode 197) Anchoring (episode 11) Relativity (episode 12) Herding (episode 19) Framing (episode 16) NUDGES & Choice Architecture (episode 35) Time Pressure (episode 74) The Overwhelmed Brain and Its Impact on Decision Making (episode 32) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Texas A&M Certificate Program Human Behavior Lab Research Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Katelyn Bourgoin. As you will hear during our conversation, I met Katelyn via Twitter where she has been kind enough to tag me many times when people ask for recommendations for people who are using psychology in marketing or for business as well as for podcast recommendations, books, or just for someone to follow. Katelyn also has a phenomenal newsletter that is so engaging — I just love how well she understands her audience. We will be talking about that a lot more during the conversation today.   Katelyn uses reciprocity so well by shining the light on others and it comes back in a really great way. Before any non-marketers tune out and say this episode is not for you, know that creating engaging content that people want to respond to matters for everyone whatever your industry, whoever you are communicating with, and whatever you want to achieve. People like to work with those they like. Framing your messages with the recipient in mind is never a bad idea. Katelyn is a marketer and market researcher so that is the lens of her statements throughout the episode, but I challenge you to consider all the ways this can be useful to you in your life and business. For anyone with a newsletter or striving to have one, and who has ever been mystified by Twitter and especially Twitter threads, get ready for some awesome tips and free resources.  Show Notes: [00:41] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Katelyn Bourgoin.  [02:13] Katelyn is a marketer and market researcher so that is the lens of her statements throughout the episode, but the tips are for everyone! [04:24] Katelyn shares about herself and how she found herself in the behavioral sciences.  [05:50] She ended up working with a bunch of companies and seeing the same problem over and over: they just didn’t know who their best customers were or why they bought. That led her to launch the company she has today called Customer Camp. [08:18] When she decided that she wanted to help people overcome that problem she discovered an innovation framework known as Jobs to Be Done.  [09:56] Jobs to Be Done is really important for understanding the context of the customer situation and what would cause them to seek out and choose a new solution.  [11:44] Their company exists to help people build a better understanding of their buyers through educating them on why people buy, training, and products. [12:39] It was thinking beyond the research and what they do to what would be engaging for potential customers.  [14:54] Having a functionally better product is important but there are all these other factors that you also need to consider when you think about the job holistically.  [16:00] You have to not just look at the functionality of a product but you have to consider the social and emotional aspects too.  [18:45] In having these conversations about the buyers' journey, pulling out the details, and mapping them, that is what leads to being able to design better marketing.  [20:14] Talk to buyers who have bought to try and understand their buying journey — that’s a step a lot of marketers are missing.  [23:00] The trigger technique is a good solution for pulling out the bits that you can make most actionable and share with your team to back up your strategy. (Freebie in the links below!) [25:47] When they designed the newsletter, they thought about what was the job of the newsletter. They wanted to create a newsletter to make people feel like it was food for their brains. [26:58] It has to be something really quick to consume and it has to be something where you walk away feeling like you have ideas for applying them to your own work. [29:55] People need to feel like they are getting something back to open and read a newsletter.  It can be inspiration, validation, or something to forward.  [32:02] They realized it was better to have consistency with their newsletter even in the subject line.  [34:44] Testing and seeing what works is very helpful.   [37:54] Choose the social media platform where you think you can be consistent.  [39:21] Make a big effort to follow the right people. She follows people who inspire her and she can learn from.  [40:57] Leverage the opportunity to highlight work that other people are doing. [42:54] Melina shares about one of Katelyn’s Twitter threads. [44:32] When it comes to writing a thread, the first tweet is the most important one.  [47:34] Understanding your customers when it comes to figuring out demand is everything. Clarity of what works doesn’t come from sitting around in a boardroom and thinking about it. It comes from actually engaging with customers. [49:05] If you want to market better, really be obsessed about understanding customers.  [50:28] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [52:31] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10! Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: The Innovator's Dilemma, by Clayton Christensen Atomic Habits, by James Clear The Experience Maker, by Dan Gingiss The Jobs to Be Down Playbook, by Jim Kalbach Marketing to Mindstates, by Will Leach Connect with Katelyn:  Katelyn’s Website Katelyn on Twitter Katelyn on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem (episode 126) Already Heard That One? Try These:  The Truth About Pricing  (episode 5) Functional Fixedness (episode 194) NUDGES & Choice Architecture (episode 35) Habits (episode 21) Scarcity (episode 14) Framing (episode 16) How to Create Remarkable Experiences with Dan Gingiss (episode 185) The Speed and Economics of Trust, an Interview with Stephen M.R. Covey (episode 148) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Know Your Customers’ “Jobs to Be Done” Customer Camp Newsletter Trigger Technique: Turn Buyer Stories into Smart Marketing Ideas Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Warren Berger. If you know me at all, you probably know what a big deal this is for me. Warren wrote my very favorite book, A More Beautiful Question. I reference it all the time on the show when I am being interviewed, when I am teaching… I even referenced it in my own book. I love questions and a huge part of that infatuation came from Warren’s book.  When the milestone of the 200th episode of The Brainy Business was on the horizon I decided to go out on a limb and asked Warren if he would be my guest for this special episode. He kindly agreed and here we are! Warren has a history as a journalist for the New York Times before writing or co-authoring ten books including A More Beautiful Question, The Book of Beautiful Questions, Beautiful Questions in the Classroom, and more. Today we are talking about questions (of course!) as well as design thinking and so much other goodness. You definitely don’t want to miss this one! Thank you so much for 200 amazing episodes together! What do you want to hear more of in the next 200?  Show Notes: [00:45] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Warren Berger.  [01:44] Warren has a history as a journalist for The New York Times before writing or co-authoring ten books including A More Beautiful Question, The Book of Beautiful Questions, Beautiful Questions in the Classroom, and more. [03:35] Warren shares who he is and his background. He is a long-time journalist. [05:54] This idea of asking questions, trying to get to the right questions, and figuring out how to ask a good question is a really important concept that has been underappreciated and not talked about enough.  [07:20] Questioning is basic and comes naturally to us…but at the same time, it is very complex. There are so many ways you can get better at questioning and understand it better.  [09:16] Warren looks for whatever has been published and he also talks to people and interviews them about how they use questions. He has interviewed a hostage negotiator, FB agent, therapists, coaches, and more.  [11:31] It is very common to see books have a chapter on questioning, but it doesn’t go that deep into it. There needs to be more. Warren advocates for Questionology departments in schools (sounds good to Melina!) [12:46] The more you learn about something, the more you realize there is to learn and that is certainly true with questioning. (Intrigued by this idea? Listen to episode 198 on the Dunning-Kruger effect to learn more about this!) [14:28] Warren has three books on questioning, A More Beautiful Question, The Book of Beautiful Questions, and Beautiful Questions in the Classroom. [15:27] There is this underappreciated tool called questioning. You know how to do it in a way, but there is so much more to it that you can learn. Questioning leads to innovations, changes, and breakthroughs.  [16:25] Everybody comes at questioning from a different angle.  [19:02] His third book on questioning was adapted for education and teachers.  [20:58] You have to model the behavior of being a curious questioner that doesn’t have all the answers. Be a person that is wondering, growing, and learning. [23:27] You have to have a balance of confidence and humility to be a questioner. [24:39] The model for great leaders is to have that ability to learn consistently and be learning in front of the people you are leading.  [25:36] The smartest people are aware of how much they don’t know. Being aware of your ignorance is an indication of how smart you are. (Dunning-Kruger effect again!) [27:28] We have to realize there is a lot we don’t know and keep learning with our teams.  [29:48] Questioning involves getting comfortable with uncertainty.  [31:17] If you use why, what if, and how questions together they tend to go in a cycle that pushes you forward.  [33:27] Questioning has to be actionable and it has to be moving forward.  [35:07] The problem is that people want to rush to practical “How” questions. It is in our nature, but it is not enough. [36:53] You could give yourself a deadline when working through the questions or just trust your gut that you will know when you have spent enough time on that stage of questioning. Melina’s tip – ask way more questions than you think you need to. [37:39] Sometimes the purpose of a question is to help you get to the next question. [38:48] The questioning muscle is a different muscle than your idea-generating muscle. When you use the questioning muscle you start to see things differently.  [41:11] Warren says design thinking is how a designer would go about approaching a problem, what can we learn from the way designers approach problems, and how we can apply that. [43:27] We can all use this mindset and process that designers use as we try to take on problems.  [44:18] If you want to create your own beautiful question and take ownership of it, consider framing it as: “How might I…?” Warren shares his beautiful question(!) [46:21] Forget the mission statement. What is your company’s mission question? [48:33] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [50:28] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thank you for 200 episodes! What do you want to hear in the next 200? Share it with me on social media (links below). Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: A More Beautiful Question, by Warren Berger The Book of Beautiful Questions, by Warren Berger Beautiful Questions in the Classroom, by Warren Berger Advertising Today, by Warren Berger Glimmer: How Design Thinking Can Transform Your World, by Warren Berger Connect with Warren:  Warren’s Website Warren on Twitter Warren on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: The Dunning-Kruger Effect (episode 198) Already Heard That One? Try These:  The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem (episode 126) Framing (episode 16) Questions or Answers (episode 4) Bikeshedding (episode 99) Priming (episode 18) Influence Is Your Superpower with Yale’s Dr. Zoe Chance (episode 189) How Businesses Can Design for Behavior Change, with Dr. Amy Bucher (episode 164) 150. Using Behavioral Science to Build Connections, an interview with Jon Levy, author of You’re Invited (episode 150) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Warren Berger TED Talk: Nurturing the Ability to Question Right Question Institute The Questionologist, Psychology Today Warren Berger Articles, Harvard Business Review Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am so happy to have my friend (and a great friend of The Brainy Business) Brian Ahearn back on the show. Brian is a wealth of information and is the Chief Influence Officer at Influence People. It has been almost 100 weeks since Brian was on the show – which is kind of crazy to think about. He was here in episode 104 talking about how to ethically influence people and his first book, Influence PEOPLE. Now he is here talking about his third book, called The Influencer, which came out a couple of months ago. Today, Brian gives tips about Cialdini’s 7 Principles of Persuasion, including some things to do as well as common pitfalls to avoid. He also talks about how he approached writing a business parable for this third book, and how that was different from a traditional business book. Lots of great insights await in this brainy episode! Show Notes: [00:41] Today I am so happy to have my friend Brian Ahearn back on the show.  [01:36] He is a Ted X presenter who has more than 30 years of experience in the insurance industry. [03:39] Brian shares his background and what he does in this world of behavioral sciences.  [05:33] Changing how people think or feel about something isn’t usually enough–you need to get them to change their behavior.  [06:46] It is not about what we think and how we feel. It is about how they think and feel.   [09:16] Don’t tell, ask. Also, say “Because…” and give a valid reason. That simple restructure is going to get you what you need far more often.  [11:46] The Principle of Liking was something he learned the importance of through Cialdini.  [12:37] It is not about us getting someone to like us, it is about us utilizing those same approaches to come to know and like them. [14:13] A lot of times, we don’t know how thirsty we are until we take that first sip. (Giving compliments to people who don’t get them often is like giving a thirsty person water, it makes a huge impact.) [16:32] Life is a lot happier when we are looking for the good in people and they are responding positively to us.  [17:41] Brian shares about his three books and how they differ from each other.  [19:09] His most recent book is called The Influencer: Secrets to Success and Happiness. [21:11] He shares that his approach for his most recent book is much like his approach to parenting.  [23:14] He shares how his first two books were different from his most recent book. [25:49] Authority is really important for speaking and training and a book helps create that authority.  [27:53] Brian summarizes Cialdini’s 7 Principles of Persuasion: liking, reciprocity, unity, authority, social proof, consistency, and scarcity. [30:14] Liking Tip: Don’t go into a situation trying to get people to like you.  Have the mindset that you want to come to like the people you are with. [32:32] Scarcity Tip: Instead of talking about all the positive reasons for doing business with you, talk about what people give up for not doing business with you.  [35:17] The value of ending with a question can have a huge impact. (reframing!) [37:06] All of life and sales is a long game. It is good to put the goodness out into the world and in some way it will come back to you.  [39:23] Brian shares the things he is excited about and what he is working on.  [42:17] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [43:45] Melina’s top takeaways: Don’t ask how you can get people to like you, instead find ways that you can like other people. When you genuinely like people and find things in common with them everything gets better.  [44:46] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Influence PEOPLE, by Brian Ahearn Persuasive Selling for Relationship Driven Insurance Agents, by Brian Ahearn The Influencer, by Brian Ahearn Influence, by Robert Cialdini Presuasion, by Robert Cialdini Connect with Brian:  Brian’s Website Brian on LinkedIn Brian on Twitter Top Recommended Next Episode: How To Ethically Influence People: Interview with Author Brian Ahearn (episode 104) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Dr. Robert Cialdini and the (Now!) 7 Principles of Persuasion (episode 157) How to Have Difficult Conversations About Race & Inequality: Interview with Kwame Christian (episode 107) Using Anchoring in Negotiations, an Interview with Kwame Christian (episode 146) Avoiding Everyday Work Disasters, an Interview with Dr. Gleb Tsipursky (episode 111) How to Avoid Disasters When Returning to the Office, with Dr. Gleb Tsipursky (episode 175) How Simple Nudges Can Save Hundreds of Millions, interview with Dectech’s Dr. Benny Cheung (episode 140) Scarcity (episode 14) Reciprocity (episode 23) Social Proof (episode 87) Focusing Illusion (episode 89) Confirmation Bias (episode 102) Precommitment (episode 120) Loss Aversion (episode 9) Framing (episode 16) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  The Power of the Word "Because" to Get People to Do Stuff Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

In today’s episode, we are talking about one of my all-time favorite concepts, the Dunning-Kruger effect.  In its simplest form, the Dunning-Kruger effect essentially says that people who are unskilled will tend to overestimate their abilities and those who are very skilled experts will underestimate theirs. Someone who undersells their skills could be more qualified than that person who seems very confident. In this episode I explain what the Dunning-Kruger effect is, how understanding it can help you be more effective, how to leverage it in business, and some top tips for navigating this natural tendency of the brain. Show Notes: [00:41] In today’s episode, we are talking about one of my all-time favorite concepts: the Dunning-Kruger effect. [03:48] To put the Dunning-Kruger effect into its simplest form, it would say essentially that people who are unskilled will tend to overestimate their abilities and those who are very skilled experts will underestimate theirs. [04:34] Think about a kid who graduates from high school and believes they know everything. [05:23] When someone graduates from high school, they are at a point that has come to be known as the “Peak of Mount Stupid.” At the peak of mount stupid, someone has lots of confidence, but it isn’t built on much competence. They have no idea how much they don’t know so they are blissfully unaware of their precarious position and how close they are to falling right off the cliff. When this kid gets to college and realizes they don’t know nearly as much as they thought they did, they fall into the “Valley of Despair.” [07:21] This is an opportunity to look at the things you don’t yet know and begin to research them. This gradual climb is called the “Slope of Enlightenment.” You slowly gain confidence as you grow your competence…though you might never get back up to the level of confidence you had way back at the peak of mount stupid. [08:14] If you take a moment now to reflect upon your own life, I am guessing you could pretty easily come up with at least half a dozen examples where the Dunning-Kruger effect reared its ugly overconfident head. [09:43] While you are an expert in one thing, you are way overconfident in something else, where you don’t have any idea of the ocean of stuff you don’t know. [11:29] How the effort heuristic relates.  [12:43] I can live in blissful unawareness of my inadequacies forever and never have it be an issue until I try the thing enough to realize that I should have been a little less confident. [13:56] Have some awareness and don’t assume you know better than everyone else. [14:54] There is a flip to this as well. (It isn’t all about mount stupid). Remember, there is a point where you become an expert and then grossly underestimate your own abilities. [16:11] You can’t do this for everything, but on the things that matter it is worth doing a little Dunning-Kruger evaluation every so often to discover if you are underestimating or overestimating your confidence and competence at this point. [17:11] Look at your own moments where you have high confidence and low competence (or high competence with not enough confidence) to determine if you are showing up in the best way possible. Also, look at others to determine where they are on that Dunning-Kruger scale. [18:37] Another place where the Dunning-Kruger effect is really critical to keep in mind is when you look at coaching or giving advice to members of your team. [20:10] Giving them too many things to change while they are feeling the stress in the “valley” is going to make the problem worse, so you need to be selective on what advice to give them. [21:23] Know that when people have low competence in something, they are likely to be overconfident in their own abilities. Those who are very competent have a tendency to underestimate their own skill or ability. [22:02] There is an interesting point when there is an increase in knowledge where you realize all of what you don’t know—that increased competence results in a drastic drop in confidence. [22:46] As you build knowledge, know that you will gradually underestimate your abilities, skills, and all the effort and training that went into what you now know and can do. Just because it is easy for you doesn’t mean it isn’t of value to someone else. Especially when someone is new, overshare information to help with where you both are on the Dunning-Kruger scale. [23:33] Don’t take your spot on the Dunning-Kruger scale as a fixed point. The context is always changing, there are new discoveries and technologies and experts every day. [26:07] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You, by Melina Palmer Outsmart Your Instincts, by Adam Hansen A More Beautiful Question, by Warren Berger Sludge, by Cass Sunstein Top Recommended Next Episode: Confirmation Bias (episode 102) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Focusing Illusion (episode 89) Priming (episode 18) Optimism Bias (episode 34) Planning Fallacy (episode 114) Expect Error (episode 39) Give Feedback (episode 40) Counterfactual Thinking (episode 68) Framing (episode 16) IKEA Effect (episode 112) Reframing Annoying Disruptions to Support Innovation, with Adam Hansen, coauthor of Outsmart Your Instincts (episode 176) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Dunning-Kruger Original Research Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Dr. Vanessa Bohns, author of You Have More Influence Than You Think: How We Underestimate Our Power of Persuasion and Why It Matters. She got her Ph.D. in Social Psychology from Columbia University and her AB in Psychology from Brown University. Her research looks at social influence and the psychology of compliance and consent.  She has been published in Psychological Science, the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, Organization Science, the Yale Law Journal, and more. She and her work have also been featured in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Atlantic, The Economist, Harvard Business Review, and NPR. She is an associate editor at the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, was previously editor of the social influence section of Social and Personality Psychology Compass, and sits on the editorial boards of the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology and Social Cognition. In this episode, we talk about influence, building relationships, Vanessa’s book, and so much more. If you have been loving all the conversations about influence this episode is a must-listen.  Show Notes: [00:43] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Dr. Vanessa Bohns, author of You Have More Influence Than You Think: How We Underestimate Our Power of Persuasion, and Why It Matters.   [03:32] Vanessa shares about herself and her background. She is an experimental social psychologist.  [05:04] She started on this journey of exploring influence in a different way than many other people have. They look at what their intuitions are to influence and how they match or don’t match reality.  [06:39] In general, we get focused on one negative thing and we are so focused on that one thing that we don’t pay attention to all of the other things that other people are paying attention to.  [07:07] Vanessa shares about the “weird shirt” study. [09:51] Good news! People are not paying attention to the things you hope they are not paying attention to and the things that you are really insecure about.  [10:17] The invisibility cloak illusion is the idea that we often feel like we walk through the world wrapped up in an invisibility cloak; you feel invisible to the world, but are not. People are noticing you and more than you tend to think. [11:44] People are actually paying attention to us as a whole, but they are not noticing the tiny embarrassing flaws that are the things we worry that people are noticing. In the end, we are having more influence than we think in a more positive way often than we think. [13:54] Influence works both ways. It is not just the person standing in front of the room, it is also the people they are speaking to that can have influence.  [15:26] The audience sitting there without saying a word can really shape the beliefs of that person at the front of the room.  [17:15] One thing that was difficult for a lot of people is doing presentations over a virtual format where you lose audience feedback.  [20:09] There is so much feedback you get from nonverbals that you take for granted. Vanessa wove in polls and chat questions to maintain engagement virtually. [21:51] She found that going around the room in Zoom and having everyone share what they think about a particular topic has really helped in her virtual presentations.  [23:18] Breakout rooms in online platforms are a great way to re-energize participants.  [26:16] We have lost so much of the interpersonal aspects of influence by moving to a virtual environment.  [28:39] People really just get the gist of what we say.  [30:07] In general, people only speak up about things that they really care about.  [31:57] The online chat feature is an outlet for people who feel less comfortable actually speaking aloud.  [33:28] So often when we do something we are so focused on how people are going to judge us for that thing instead of thinking about how that thing we said or did impact other people.  [35:05] Any time we are holding back and not asking for something, we may be missing opportunities.  [37:16] You want to be aware that every conversation and interaction is leaving an aftertaste, aftermath, or afterglow.  [38:58] We are too hard on ourselves when it comes to people judging us.  [39:43] It is so important for us to be mindful of the impacts our words and actions are having on other people.  [42:02] Shouting is born of underconfidence. We shout when we think nobody is listening.  [44:08] We don’t see the ways we are impacting people all the time.  [45:58] If you can find ways to get out of your own head and reflect on the things that you’re doing, you can be more accurate and aware of your influence.  [47:02] People like you more than you think they do.  [49:43] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [53:03] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: You Have More Influence Than You Think, by Vanessa Bohns The Power of Us, by Jay Van Bavel & Dominic Packer Reinforcements, by Heidi Grant Fierce Conversations, by Susan Scott The All or Nothing Marriage, by Eli Finkle Connect with Vanessa:  Vanessa’s Website Vanessa on Twitter Vanessa on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: Dr. Robert Cialdini and the (Now!) 7 Principles of Persuasion (episode 157) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Focusing Illusion (episode 89) Influence Is Your Superpower with Yale’s Dr. Zoe Chance (episode 189) Fundamental Attribution Error (episode 92) Hate Being on Camera? Understand Your Brain’s Biases To Change Your Mind (episode 95) How To Sell From The Stage (episode 6) Sense of Sight (episode 24) Partitioning (episode 58) The Power of Us with Dr. Dominic Packer (episode 178) Framing (episode 16) Herding (episode 19) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Dove Real Beauty Campaign Devil Wears Prada Clip Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Priscilla McKinney, CEO of Little Bird Marketing and host of the Ponderings from the Perch podcast. As you will hear in our conversation today, I love how thoughtful Priscilla and her team are about those brain associations and little play on word moments, like calling the podcast "Ponderings From the Perch" when the company is "Little Bird" Marketing, which is, of course, an extension of the benefits of word of mouth and the saying that "a little birdie" told you something. (Did you see how I extended that in the art for this episode…?) This builds upon Dan Gingiss' insights on creating remarkable experiences that people can't wait to share and his WISER framework. It is witty and engaging to have little easter eggs like this. It helps people feel like they know you and want to connect more. Priscilla and I talk about this, her background in anthropology, how that helps her bring the “human factor” back into brands, and so much more during our conversation today. You don’t want to miss it! Show Notes: [00:41] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Priscilla McKinney, CEO of Little Bird Marketing and host of Ponderings from the Perch podcast.  [03:35] Priscilla shares about herself and her background. She studied cultural anthropology and is now a CEO of a digital marketing agency. [04:27] Every company should have a clear and effective marketing plan. Forget what everyone else is doing and think about what you need to do to drive revenue.  [06:51] Priscilla found herself in marketing after naturally doing it on the side.  [09:50] Quit marketing to everybody and think of who the most ideal person is. [10:51] Observe people in their natural habitat and understand what is convenient, natural, and helpful for them. What delights and engages them?  Once you understand this, start building a plan to attract those people.   [13:43] When your best and brightest clients start talking, listen and figure out what is frustrating to them.  [15:58] Too many people are not social on social media.  [18:46] That amplification of your thought leadership is where you can’t help but see things a little differently.  [19:40] 92% of people who are engaged online want to deal with the person who is acknowledged or perceived as the thought leader in their industry.  [22:58] You have to be willing to be a little bit different than everybody else.  [25:43] Priscilla shares the background behind her business name and brand: Little Bird Marketing.  [26:52] Fidelity to your brand is something that really takes effort.  [28:27] Melina shares her favorite ad campaign of all time.  [30:25] Priscilla shares her favorite ad campaign of all time. [31:55] Fun is such an important part of engaging with other people.  [32:47] Priscilla shares examples of how she used personas in the past.  [35:26] Speaking to the real heart of the problem is the one thing in persona work that can overcome any other obstacle. (And what most brands get wrong.) [37:51] Pricing is not about the price. Oftentimes we haven’t done a good enough job making them feel like they need this and you.  [39:40] Creating personas isn’t enough–you need to use them. Keep them central to everything you do. [41:52] People are going to get to your 404 page but you don’t want it to be a bad experience. (Check ours out for inspiration.) [43:45] Priscilla is going to be MCing Greenbook’s IIEX North America in Austin this year.  [45:28] Melina is going to be speaking at IIEX North America in Austin and IIEX Europe in Amsterdam. Come join us! [48:31] Priscilla has lots of great resources to polish your marketing.  [49:45] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [52:00] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: The Experience Maker, by Dan Gingiss Choice Hacking, by Jennifer Clinehens The Life Saving Skill of Story, by Michelle Auerbach The Hype Handbook, by Michael F. Schein Marketing Mess to Brand Success, by Scott Miller Connect with Priscilla:  Little Bird Marketing Website Priscilla on LinkedIn Priscilla on Twitter Top Recommended Next Episode: How to Create Remarkable Experiences with Dan Gingiss (episode 185) Already Heard That One? Try These:  The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem  (episode 126) Surprise & Delight (episode 60) The Power of Story, an Interview with Dr. Michelle Auerbach (episode 145) Reciprocity (episode 23) Peak-End Rule (episode 97) The Power of Metaphors for Brands with Olson Zaltman’s Malcolm and Hannibal Brooks (episode 181) How to Successfully Pitch Your Business Using Behavioral Economics (episode 177) Where CX and Behavioral Science Meet, interview with Jennifer Clinehens, author of Choice Hacking (episode 141) Scarcity (episode 14) When Machine Learning Meets Neuroscience, with Ingrid Nieuwenhuis of Alpha.One (episode 170) Herding (episode 19) A Guide for You to Create a Brainy Brand (episode 43) Sludge (episode 179) Priming  (episode 18) The Truth About Pricing (episode 5) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  Resources from Little Bird Marketing Greenbook’s IIEX North America A Non-Boring Behavioral Economic Lesson with Melina Palmer (Melina’s Episode on Ponderings from the Perch Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia

Today I am very excited to introduce you to Karina Montes and Mario Drago to discuss their work with BE OEFA in Peru. These are the first guests on the show from South  America, and I am so excited to start having a more international presence in the guests coming up this year. Thank you to Carlos Hoyos, a listener of the show and LinkedIn connection for the suggestion and introduction. If you or someone you know is doing some cool work in behavioral economics in a country that isn't yet well represented in the space, reach out to me on LinkedIn or through email. I would love to see if it is a fit to feature on the show just like Karina and Mario's work with BE OEFA.  OEFA is the environmental regulatory agency in Peru, sort of like the EPA here in the United States, and BE OEFA is a (now award-winning!) team Karina started a few years ago to help incorporate behavioral economics into their work with some amazing results, as you will hear about in today's show. Show Notes: [00:42] Today I am very excited to introduce you to Karina Montes and Mario Drago working with BE OEFA in Peru. These are the first guests on the show from South America.  [01:42] OEFA is the environmental regulatory agency in Peru. BE OEFA is a team Karina started a few years ago to help include behavioral economics into their work with some amazing results. [04:23] Karina shares about herself and her background. She is an economist at OEFA.  [04:51] Mario shares about himself and his background. He is an external consultant and lawyer.  [06:03] Karina shares the story of reforms that started in 2016.  [08:26] When people weren’t doing what they “should” even though it was the law, they realized they needed to know more about the irrational part of the brain. [10:16] Mario’s relationship with behavioral economics was kind of an accident.  [11:21] Mario’s team was trying to investigate why the public policies were not working. They discovered all the rational measures and economic incentives were not working.  [14:08] Mario was the coach for Karina’s team. Each group worked with one problem, analyzed the behavior of interest groups, set objectives, and assigned the nudges.  [16:27] Sometimes you have to think in another way to promote compliance.  [17:42] They identified five projects they thought could be solved with behavioral science.  [20:18] The five projects seemed very irrational because they thought that the way to solve the problem was easy.  [21:02] BE OEFA was created to be an experimental nudge unit. [23:42] They formed a group with people that were very motivated and already knew about the topic. Hundreds of people completed the test and 30 people were selected for the first group.  [25:01] Mario shares the process he went through to design the projects.  [26:09] The first step was to determine who they wanted to nudge. Then, after identifying the true problems they began the experiments, which lasted 3-12 months.  [29:05] They found something similar in every case. It is always best to understand the problem before investigating the best nudges to use. [30:54] The best nudges are incredibly simple (in hindsight) and obviously work, but they often take a long time to figure out in practice.  [32:17] So much time has to be spent on developing and thinking about who you are talking to, what they are doing, and what mindset they are in. [34:09] In the experiment about liability acknowledgment, the problem was that there was a very low rate of companies that acknowledged liability responsibility after the analysis process began.  [36:55] In the academic research you can find, a 3-4% increase is often a beautiful outcome. Their applied research had a much more significant impact – from 1.4% compliance to over 30%!  [37:49] You don’t only have to provide the information. You have to make sure they understand it, internalize it and get part of their mental process in the right moment with the right incentive.  [39:28] Karina’s tip: having lots of good data is key.  [42:12] It is important to be sure of the problem that needs to be solved.  [43:54] If you are interested in behavioral sciences, there is a lot of space to work in the public sector. If you want to have a career in behavioral economics you can also have public agencies as a client.  [45:28] You have to have information and data. [44:48] Melina shares her closing thoughts.  [46:30] There is a whole community of people who love behavioral economics from around the world waiting to network and connect with you. It is great to have like-minded people to connect with. [47:41] If you enjoy the experience I’ve provided here for you, will you share about it? That could mean leaving a rating/review or sharing the episode with a friend (or 10!) Thanks for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Android. If you like what you heard, please leave a review on iTunes and share what you liked about the show.  I hope you love everything recommended via The Brainy Business! Everything was independently reviewed and selected by me, Melina Palmer. So you know, as an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. That means if you decide to shop from the links on this page (via Amazon or others), The Brainy Business may collect a share of sales or other compensation. Let’s connect: [email protected] The Brainy Business® on Facebook The Brainy Business on Twitter The Brainy Business on Instagram The Brainy Business on LinkedIn Melina on LinkedIn The Brainy Business on Youtube Join the BE Thoughtful Revolution – our free behavioral economics community, and keep the conversation going! More from The Brainy Business: 🎉🎉🎉 Buy Melina’s award-winning book, What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia 🎉🎉🎉 Get the Books Mentioned on (or related to) this Episode: Predictably Irrational, by Dan Ariely Nudge, by Richard Thaler & Cass Sunstein Sludge, by Cass Sunstein Never Go with Your Gut, by Gleb Tsipursky Finding Confidence in Conflict, by Kwame Christian Connect with BE OEFA:  BE OEFA on Twitter Karina on LinkedIn Mario on LinkedIn Top Recommended Next Episode: The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem  (episode 126) Already Heard That One? Try These:  Incentives - The "N" In NUDGES (episode 36) Motivation and Incentives at Work with Kurt Nelson (episode 187) Secrets of Motivation and Incentives, Tim Houlihan Interview (episode 109) The Most Important Step in Applying Behavioral Economics: Understanding the Problem  (episode 126) How Businesses Can Design for Behavior Change, with Dr. Amy Bucher (episode 164) NUDGES & Choice Architecture (episode 35) IKEA Effect (episode 112) Time Discounting (episode 51) Framing (episode 16) Loss Aversion (episode 9) Status Quo Bias (episode 142) Sludge (episode 179) The Littery - Interview with CEO Michael Manniche  (episode 75) Dan Ariely Interview: Discussing Shapa, the Numberless Scale (episode 101) The Truth About Pricing (episode 5) Other Important Links:  Brainy Bites - Melina’s LinkedIn Newsletter  BE OEFA website in English BE OEFA website in Spanish Behavioral Economics Applied to Environmental Enforcement (English) La Economía Del Comportamiento Aplicada a la Fiscalización Ambiental (Spanish) Check out What Your Customer Wants and Can’t Tell You on Amazon, Bookshop, Barnes & Noble, Book Depository, and Booktopia