Welcome to the RAG podcast, the weekly show where I interview recruitment owners who are prepared to tell their unique story of growth.This is all in aid of helping future and existing recruitment businesses who are looking to do similar things.
Now, growth means different things to different people.So by tuning in every week, you're no doubt going to find information that's relevant to you. On this week's episode of the RAG podcast, I'm joined by Kate Cross.
Kate is the founder or co-founder of Harvey Jacob, a specialist construction recruitment business that does 100% contract and has been running for over 17 years.They've done 500,000 pounds in contract revenue a year consistently since inception.
And she started the business alongside her husband, who is the main biller, and he's done 25 years of half a million every single year.That's 12, just over 12 million. in contract revenue.
Now being a founder of a business with your husband for 17 years presents some of the most crazy stories.
The highs, the lows, the burnout, the rehab and in this episode Kate talks about that journey and how she's managed to maintain her marriage, the contract business and everything in between.
And then we talk about her new venture, which is called Coral Coached, which is going to help other recruitment businesses build sustainable long-term contract revenue.If you are interested in a crazy story, then you want to listen to this.
And if you're also interested in building contract revenue into your business, you might be a perm leader, then this is definitely an episode for you.So let's get into it without further ado. Kate, welcome to The Rag Podcast.Thank you for having me.
Pleasure.Thanks for coming in our newly Season 8 physical studio in Sheffield.You've enjoyed your journey and your initial experience?
I did.I crossed the border.
You did?I did.We had a laugh about this.
We had to find where the North-South divide was.
I've moved up to Oxford.Oxford?
Bloody hell.So anyone north of Oxford is a northerner in your eyes?That is bonkers.The history of this chat is we met in Birmingham recently and you said you were up north and for me Birmingham is not being up north.
No, you said that someone that lived in Ipswich was down south.
It's still South East, isn't it?
We've been talking about this for a while, yeah, I think.
Well, Kate, we've got loads to talk about.You're a bit worried about the time frame, but I promise you we'll talk for an hour.We'll get through it.
Well, before we get into the story and you and everything in between, just do us a quick introduction of you, who you are and what you do.
So I'm co-founder of a company called Harvey Jacob.We're a white collar construction consultancy.We have just had our 17th year.Wow.Yeah.
And co-founding and launching a new company called Coral Coached, which is all about helping other recruiters replicate what we've been doing for the last 17 years.
Contract recruitment.Because there's so many perm billers out there who have no idea. Well, I obviously, I'm involved in this.I'm excited.I've been helping you with it.So I want to get underneath the bonnet of it.But before, let's go back.
So tell us your story of getting into recruitment.How did that happen?
Oh gosh, I was a typical felon, so I spent seven years in corporate banking and finance.
Where'd you grow up, actually?Let's go further back.South.Where?
South?I thought you got the word South in it.You're from Southampton?
I'm not from Southampton, New Forest, but Southampton, yeah, South Coast.
Right, so you are from the bloody South.I am, people in the South. I always want to know, were you from an entrepreneurial background?Did you have family that were business owners or anything like that?
Did any of that start early in your line of sight?
Yeah, well I didn't perhaps realise it because my mum and dad not.My mum was a stay at home housewife, dad was in a corporate career but my grandpa was a true entrepreneur so he had a haulage firm
latterly a building firm right so obviously it had filtered through both of my brothers now run their own businesses as well so it was obviously in there something in there yeah and just I was one of those kids that didn't fit the mould once I got to sixth form.
Far too much fun to be had.
And I just didn't fit, sitting down to study wasn't for me and I just wanted to get out into the world.So that typical entrepreneur.
Did you go into banking without a degree or whatever?
Yeah, I sort of taught myself into it so I had great fun clubbing around the UK in the 90s and at some point went I probably need a proper job and got myself an interview at a big investment bank and somehow found myself.
I can't remember.It was really boring.We were like in reconciliations or something, really not meant for someone who likes to be out in the world and talking.
But it was really good, because it gave me a foundation in business that I wouldn't have got otherwise.And so I then went into very front office roles, settling trades on trading desks and then relationship management for a big investment bank.
So I ended up very much in a front office role. But when we set our own business up, having that back office experience, as tedious as it was at the time, at least gave me an understanding of what happened behind.
So I left the bank in London, I can't remember the year. and fell into recruitment.It basically went, how am I going to earn my city salary working in Southampton?And I went to a rector who happened to be my flatmate at the time.
And she said, you'll be brilliant at recruitment.There's a really cool company.They do construction.
How did you take to recruitment?
For the first six months, honestly, I missed every single budget and I was the biggest whinge bag in the office because I was pulling perm vacancies left, right and centre and it was, I'm not cut out for contract, I'm not cut out for contract.
Just asking a million questions and being a real pain in the ass to my manager and he was like, you're fine, you've got everything you need.
And then at month seven, because my activity was so high and I was prepared to be coached and the pace was right, took off.
I remember driving down the motorway on a Thursday afternoon and just putting about 10 contractors out in one day, which is just the best feeling in the world.And then my personality went, I like the feeling of that.I love a bit more of that.
So it took you, what, seven, eight months?
Yeah.I'll tell you, I did contract recruitment in Australia, but I was on like, I've talked about this before, there was no commission structure at all.So I got to like 20 runners out on commercial, well, it was on a government
government contract, so the rates were low.And I got like a couple of little bonuses.So when I joined the London Business Vanquish, and I spent probably the best part of seven months similar to get my first few runners out.
And then I was like, I nearly gave up so many times.This is just not for me.
But then once you feel it, I don't know about you, but I used to sit there on the way back from meetings, like calculating my commissions of when things go in and when it drops.And I'd be like, this is mental.
So those are the days when you could still do 50p margins, because a lot of the white collar's on day rates now.So we used to wait on a Friday, it'd be like margin reports come out on a Friday.
And I never worried about how many contractors out I had specifically, I was only interested
Is that based on the amount of days they'd work, or hours they'd work?Hours, yeah.Mine was more daily, it was all daily rate, and it was, they used to work 18 to 20 days a month, typically, so you didn't have to worry too much about that.
When your tent works the weekend.
Oh wow, yeah.So you'd get a report on a Friday, and then you'd build it over the month and get paid the following month, is that how it would work?
God, that's taken me back.
So after I was in the Southampton office, I went to work in the London office, and that was when it got really competitive, because you think you've seen it all until you work in a high-volume recruitment business in the middle of London, and everyone's standing up and shouting, but it was really competitive.
So on a Friday, you'd be waiting.You used to get paper copy reports, and you'd open them up, and what you'd want to know is what margin you did in that week. I think you used to add up over the month and you got paid.
What was a good week for you back then when you were doing well?
20k was the benchmark.20k was a benchmark.It was one of those offices that you needed to be doing 5k a week if you were even allowed on the board.I can't even remember what I did.I was doing about
temps out, I peaked out in that office and then, well that's another story, we're probably going to get to that in a bit, but I went really quickly in both desks and I paid the price for that later.
So why did you go back to London?
Because I met Simon, my husband.
Right, was he working in the London office?
He was running the freelance division in London.
Oh wow, so how did that come about?
Well we kept it a secret for about, I can't remember, three months.He used to ring up because my patch boarded London and he'd phone up and say, oh I've got a lead,
and it happened to be on my patch and eventually it got to the point where I was in London for some friend's birthday or something and I went, I was some corny, you've passed me loads of leads, should we meet for a drink?
Oh wow, you opened the door?
He was just like, that is when you.
Was he a successful, he was one of them guys as well that was doing well and you were like.
Well, it was a bit awkward, he'd gone from trainee to sector manager in record time and I was breaking my own records and we just didn't want it to,
Essentially, I was never a trainee because of my banking experience, but I joined as a new consultant.We'd got together when I was in Southampton.It was quite cool, it was quite fun.
So when you moved to London, everyone knew you were together?
Yeah, yeah, because I was then moving into his team and at that point I was moving into the London office so I could move in with him.
So you were moving in with him and into his team?
Yeah.How was that?Well, I didn't work for him, I worked for the team leader.
I wouldn't recommend it if I'm honest because I was performing way above what I should have been but it was like having your kids in your class at school or something when you can't give them the recognition.It just wasn't ideal and it was a lot.
Where in London were you living with him?
We were working on the Strand and living in Shoreditch.
Well, hang on a minute, it wasn't actually Shoreditch, it was Bethnal Green.
I had an office there as well.
Yeah, so central line.That was why it was easy, yeah, central line.
The office where we had our set up before the pandemic was in Bethnal Green, opposite the park.So you come out, it's called the Pillbox.
So we probably shouldn't share that, but we don't live there anymore, so it's fine.And the Sunlight Soap Factory development, that was where we were.
Yeah, it was.Not now with the family, but it was cool at the time.
How did your relationship and career evolve?Because you started a business together, right?So how did this all unfold?
So we literally, we got together in the February.Six months later, I moved to London and into his team.We went on holiday to South Africa and flew back into a really miserable, rainy London.
And that's basically where, I don't know if this is what we want to do anymore.Just before I'd left the bank, I was looking at transferring out to Sydney.
And just before we'd met, Simon was going to go out to Australia and set the contract division up for the company we were working for.So it had always been there, and we'd been out in SA, we flew in and went, shall we do it?
Shall we go to Sydney in true Kate style?Six months later, we were in Sydney.Did he stay with the same company?Well, no.No, he went out with a different company.
We decided at that point, because we were working together, we wanted to work in separate offices, separate businesses.So we went out to Sydney and Simon set a contract division up for a UK recruiter that had invested over there.
And I did a thing that, again, was interesting and it wasn't fit for my profile, but in hindsight, when you look back at your journey, it was absolutely the right thing.I ended up running an RPO for Asia Pacific
for a big finance company, corporate company, and it just... Recruitment.Well, I was working for a big recruiter on site, running there on site for Asia Pacific, and it was the most tedious job for a contract recruiter to be doing.
I just wanted to get my hands on the vacancies and fill them myself.But what it did, again, was give me that back office knowledge of what a high volume amount of contractors going through a system requires.
So we did that for 18 months and then we got engaged.I wanted to come back to the UK to get married.It took us about... 10 years of marriage counselling for Simon to get over that one.He did not want to come home.Where in Sydney were you based?
Mossman, so lower North Shore.I was in central business, he was in North Sydney.
It's a pretty amazing city though when you settle in.
It took us ages to settle down but... Why did you want to come back?Because I knew we were going to have kids and it's a bloody long way from the grandparents, babysitters.And actually my dad had... I lost my dad
really young at 64, 2000, and it was 10 years, nearly 10 years ago.And had we still been in Australia, it would have torn me apart.
You wouldn't have seen him.Yeah.And where's Simon from?Everywhere.
He's not a Southerner, is he?Well, no, but he's not a true, he's not a, well, basically, I think he grew up in Herefordshire, then the family went to Kenya, then they moved back. and he was schooled, so that's why he identifies as a northerner.
I don't know about all that.
Just so everyone knows, I identify as a northerner as well.Okay, just to allow that.
He went to school in the north, so in the northwest, so that's why he's a Liverpool norther.
He's got a little bit of an accent though, a northern accent when I spoke to him.
And it comes out depending on who he's with.So he was, yeah, up north, his parents then went out to UAE.He followed them out to UAE for a few years. Came back to London, then we went out to Sydney.So he's a bit of a mixed bag.
So moving back to the UK, was it to be closer to your parents?
Basically, yeah.And we were South Coast or Manchester, and I just, well, we know my thoughts on where he should be.So he actually has spent the most part of his life now down south.
So how many years ago was that when you landed from Sydney back in the UK? 2007. Right, and is that when you started your business?Yeah, it basically... Which is probably one of the worst times ever to have started a business, isn't it?
Or not, because we didn't know any different.I mean, there's two schools of thought.
But the next year was when it really hit, wasn't it, 2008?
Yeah, again, no, we've never... Because we were 100% contract at that time, so it never... None of the downturns, or economic or political, to date, touch wood, has affected us because we're contract.
And we've had better years and slower years, but we came back, we were really naive.So I think being really stupid and naive and young helps.
We probably wouldn't have done it if we, so we got, we literally, we got back and so we flew back from Sydney in March, 2007 via Thailand, we had a bit of time in Thailand.And I said to Simon, what are we going to do?And he said, I sort of
I said, should we set a business up?And he was like, mm, yeah, mm.
And you'd had a period of time working apart now, hadn't you?
Yeah, yeah.And what it had proved to me is that construction recruitment contract was my passion, and that's what I should have been doing in Sydney, and shouldn't have worried about the fact that my boyfriend was going to be a competitor.
But we sat down, and we had, this was the extent of our philosophical strategy conversation.Do you want to go board? in a large organisation, Simon.No, I'm not a political animal.Do you want to go L&D, Kate, because we're going to have a family?
No, I can't.That's just not my thing.So what happened was Simon was going to set up a UK or a southern branch of the company he'd been in Australia with, and I had accepted a role. as a consultant with a construction recruiter.
And we literally sat down and looked at each other and went, and I think, you know, as we look now at how many 360 recruiters do this, we were sort of those really early adopters in the early 2000s.Why do we want to give away?
At that point, commission is, you know, the commission structure is a lot more generous and kinder to consultants.So at that time, why do we want to do this for someone else?Like we have no desire
to run large organizations, we want to be really cool.
And you were going to have to build something anyway.Yeah, exactly.
You weren't going to be given something.No, we'd been away in Australia for two years.We'd literally, I mean, Simon was never going out.
I mean, this is in the days when you had those business card holders, and we'd ripped the whole lot up, just in true, you know.And so we just, we'd sat there and thought, we've literally got, why would we build something for someone else?
We've successfully done it in different locations for ourself. We don't want to give away control and autonomy and that was it.So we set the business up.
Where did the name come from?
We were Southern Cross to start with because we were down south and our surname was Goodbrier.
You've got a real thing about this North South of Ikea.It comes out in all the comments.
Oh right, surname was Cross and we were originally Southern Cross and then so we set this up from a shoebox in my mum and dad's dining room and literally it went right you
take getting the tents out, I'll sort out the back office and the wedding and buy a house.
Yeah.I had no idea what we were doing.I was doing our VAT returns on Excel spreadsheets.Literally no clue.
Did you both recruit then?
I was running, I was setting the business up because we were also getting married and we were buying a house.So it's quite a lot going on at this point.So the plan was get it all set up and after the wedding I'll start recruiting.
I remember the first tent we put out.It literally took us a whole day to raise the contract.In the car, we had this little Audi.Sat outside the house that we were going to do.And me on the phone to Bridesmaids.It was just bonkers.
I don't know what we were thinking, but we'd got the wedding date set for the 8th of September.We'd set the business up.We had to buy a house.And then we'd done all this, and we bought this little townhouse, and the middle floor was our offices.
all open plan downstairs.It was all cream fabric and glass and open larder.The whole lot was like, we're gonna have kids in a few years, so let's just have a townhouse.We could walk to all the bars and restaurants.In Southampton?In Southampton.
And the plan was, we'll do that for three years, and Kate will recruit, we'll move into offices, we'll get a team.And what actually happened was, is I fell pregnant two weeks after our honeymoon.Wow.So we, all of a sudden,
in the space of between March and September, had a new business, a new home, a baby on the way, and then the credit crunch.Wow.Yeah, it was a lot.Yeah, it was a lot.
So what happened was, it became clear very obviously that I wasn't going to be able to build a contract desk, I just had a baby.
So we rebranded and we had a business partner at that time whose son, it was a really, really ingenious and creative name creation, his name is called Harvey, our son's Jacob, we did that thing that a lot of recruitment companies do.
Why rebranded though?Because of the crap name.
Basically it was a crap name and it didn't feel on brand for who we really were.
So while you were raising Jacob, were you involved in the business at this point?
Yeah, very much so.So operationally running the whole back end of the business, so payroll, credit control, risk. All of it, and literally learning it as I went.
And allowing Simon just to do what he does?
Yeah.Yeah, and it wasn't... The years were mental.We were very fortunate that we had a lot of guys out on the Olympic project, and that big St Pancras build, but it was bonkers.
I mean, he... I think we topped out at... It was more than 60 tenths out for one villa at that time, with me supporting it with the baby.
Wow.So what are we talking, like, gross margin a year on that?What were you doing then?
Half a million, something like that.
We've been really static.In fact, he had his biggest month in his career last month.
I think you told me about half a million a year.Yes, but we've been really static.
So what happened to the business partner that came in and hired him?So basically we shared a brand, the marketplace, but behind the brand there was two separate limited companies.
He didn't want to work for himself anymore and he just went back to work for someone.And we just absorbed.
There was always a written agreement that if someone wanted to leave the brand they could, but who was left retained the name and that's who we've, yeah.
Obviously, there's a long period of time now, probably about 10 years or so of you then running this business.Yeah.
I think if we look at the business first, then we can look at the non-business stuff, because there's some really interesting things to talk about.But if we look at the business, how is your personal role alongside Simon's?
Because a husband and wife partnership, like you say, Chris and Amanda Redmond, I know there's a few of these out there, not many.So did you ever go back into full recruitment?
Yeah.So what happened was when Jacob started school,
So he went into, he was four and a half, he went into kindy, and I said, right, I'm coming back to the business, but I'm not coming back to recruit, we're coming back to grow a proper, in inverse commas, proper agency.
And I said, so we got full-time help at home, and which allowed me, I always wanted stability, so I wanted to work full-time and grow the business, but I always wanted to know there was a line of stability for Jacob.So we did that, and
We grew the team, and I was responsible for that, and running the business, and Simon was a principal biller within the business, and it was interesting.
Jacob was born 2008, 12, 2012, 13.Right, that was when I landed in London for the Olympics.
So, you say it was interesting?
Unpack that, what do you mean?
We were running a 100% contract business based on the South Coast, and our clients were all in London.So we had an immediate cultural thing to figure out.We wanted our consultants to act, think, and behave like London recruiters.
But having a regional business, that was tricky.We overcame that.The trickiest bit was managing a principal biller that happens to be your husband.That was... What was the biggest challenge with that?He just wouldn't do what he was told.
So how many people did you have around?
I would do what he was told.There was eight of us.So there was me, we had an ops manager, there was Simon, there was a couple of resources, and there were three consultants.
But you're trying to create a culture and habits, and then you've got this guy who's just not doing it.
So I'd be calling board meetings.I'd be doing Monday morning meets, and we'd be doing Friday afternoon meetings, and the only person not in the boardroom was him.And he's a business leader and owner.
Was he out working, or was he taking the piss?
No, he was always on the phone.He was always working. He was just, I mean, we've all been around them.Pain in the arse to manage.
And we were married and it came to a, we'd gone through, we'd got some really good coaches in and we just hit a point where the leadership team was at loggerheads, quite literally.There was a Friday afternoon.We were in the back.
We had this, we'd fitted out these beautiful offices.The team were all on the desks.There was a boardroom and then there was a training room that we had at the back and we were having, it's really embarrassing, a massive,
Massive row and the whole team must well, there's no way they couldn't hear it and someone launched iPhone and we create we Invented the iPhone curve before it was built and at that point I went I Need to take a breather on this.
My dad was really poorly.
There was a lot going so were you Arguing in front of people in the office.
Oh, yeah, that's not good.It's not good And actually there's a way your husband or push your buttons.
We just didn't we were young we were young naive business owners and We hadn't done enough work on ourselves as business leaders to be mature enough to handle a team.And I'm not too ashamed to admit that we needed to.And we would have worked on it.
And then I took a breather.We scaled the team to a nucleus.It wasn't just for this year.
Yeah, there was stuff that we needed to work on.And that was fully the intention, that we were going to take all our learnings and really embed
learning and coaching culture in the business and Simon and I he was coaching I was coaching we were coaching independently on our relationship so a lot of work going on and then my dad got diagnosed with terminal cancer and I just he was only supposed to live for six months God love him and I was sat in the boardroom with Simon and I said we can grow another business I can't I'm not gonna get this opportunity back I can't grow another dad yeah I'm gonna take a six-month breather and I'm gonna just
be with my dad, which is what I did.And he then held on for 18 months and he was a really strong guy.And at the end of that 18 months, I then had a child going into year six who needed me.I'd been absent with work more than I thought I had been.
I'd been absent looking after my dad. second baby had never materialized and I just went... Who was looking after Jacob then?Our nanny, yeah.She's still part of our family, she's still with us.
Yeah, she's our Labrador's nanny now.Yeah.But she's gorgeous.And she just, I mean, but she was then part of our family, she sat with me and held my hand.
Did she live with you?No.No?No, she's not that crazy.So how would it work though?Would she come in the morning?
She'd come in at like nine till six, yeah.
You'd go back and she'd go home?
Yeah.So I'd drop Jacob off at school and she would then come in, clean up the carnage that had happened in the house, getting a young family out the door and she was just there for us and that, I went on
So, yeah, Jacob was in year six, and I just went, second baby's never appeared, like, I'm not gonna get this opportunity.I'm gonna be a full-time mum for another couple of years, and I'm gonna join the PA.
The PA, didn't know what hit them when I joined the PA.
What do you mean, the PA?
You've got all this to come.And they do fundraising and charity events.
Parents and Teachers Association.I'm an ex-teacher, so I've been on one side.But let's go back a sec.Yeah, yeah. What the common theme I've noticed here is your life keeps changing.He's not changing much.Who's Simon?No, he's just Principal Biller.
You're like, everything's changing.You've driven the move back to the UK, you've took time off for this, you took time off for that. Let's just go back outside of that.How did you stay husband and wife throughout all this change?
And other people being, like the business, your dad, your son, there's so many other people that require your attention and his attention.So how did you keep, or not, how did the relationship?
I knew that we could afford to get divorced because we owned the business together.That was the common joke.
Were you not getting along though, was it?
No, we were getting along.So we'd had a really painful point And that was one of the reasons that I stepped away properly and took a breather from the business because it was causing too much conflict and the marriage was always going to come first.
First and foremost with Jacob's mum and dad, I had a lot going on.So we were moving out, chaotic would have been the word.So I had a lot to work on personally, which I did.
Who did the back office job when you stepped out?
We employ someone.So we've never, I mean, it's never just been Simon.
So when I stepped out, I handed over to an ops director who came in and did an interim project who got support staff and trained them and then slowly exited himself and then gave it to me so I could very remotely keep my eyes on it and support the staff around Simon.
I know it's not the content, but there's a lot of stories around big billers.Big billers never just sit in their office and do it all by themselves.There's normally a team around them.So that team's always remained that I've always had my eyes on.
So, what was the relationship like at its lowest point?
It's like I moved out and moved into a flat.
Yeah.It was, I took my wedding rings off.
What was going on to make you get to that point?
I just couldn't, I wasn't, didn't feel heard.I was trying to, it's a lot, you know, you've just had, you know, it's like you're a new parent.And I've been divorced.
Yeah, I was trying to be a business owner, I was trying to be a mum, I was trying to be a wife, I was trying to work on my own.Mental health and illness that I was going through, and I just, I needed space.
I just needed to go, this is just something, we've got to just create breathing space in this.But yeah, it was hard.And we both committed at that point to coaching, independently and together.
And we started to watch the patterns, so that always the low point, and we've only literally just got past this in our marriage, we've been married 17 years in September, that every April, we would fly on holiday, and at some point in that holiday, one massive row would go down, because we'd just come through the quietest part of contract recruitment in construction.
He's in a spin, because he thinks this is going to be the year that we're going to go bust, which is just ridiculous, because we feel, as I said, the same.And we would get out to wherever we were going.
And for the first week, he'd be trying to do everything in a week and it would just end up in this big... So you were pissed off that he was trying to work on the holiday and you weren't there.
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It takes a long time, it takes a lot of confidence in yourself as a business owner to watch the trends, trust the process and know you can go through it.
100%, I mean even now, we're what, seven and a half years in. we've got a great balance sheet and a strong, and I've got data to back up all my data stats from a sales and market perspective for the last five years is rock solid.
But we still have a bad month.
And you think, or you see even two weeks into, I have this experience every month, right?So the first two weeks, I start off really relieved and stress-free.I normally take the first of the month off or don't do a lot of work.
I'm just like, breathe out.First two weeks, I'm tracking what's going on.And then the final two weeks is normally... depending on how the first two weeks went.If the first two weeks went well, I'm pretty chilled.If it didn't, I'm pretty stressed.
And my wife says it every month.She says, you have the same chat every month.You go on about this target every month.
Hit it over a glass of wine.
It's like you always hit it, or you don't hit it, and it don't make any difference anyway.
Do you think it is a recruiter thing?Yeah, I do.I mean, it's an emotion thing.I mean, bear in mind, we're 10th.All these years, we're not now.We do some pound, but it's by, we don't chase it.
But we have had genuine experiences in the business where we've had to let go of a third of our temper.
We have had experience in life when you think your dad's got a slightly sore neck, has arthritis, and it's terminal prostate cancer, you get to avoid neck.Yeah, it was prostate that had gone to his spine.It was horrendous.
So you do know that you can't ever, as a business owner, just sit down.
It's never... I think as a recruiter, though, in the businesses we've worked for, you have this weird ticking clock, especially in contracts.
So every time you get a vacancy on, you're told there's teams in other businesses now working harder than you.So you've got to get on the phone.So there's always this imaginary clock.
And I just think, in a way, it's probably what's made us successful, but it's also the downfall.I still feel it now.I still feel it, like something's ticking.And it's like trying to trying to balance that.
We're doing it now because I said to you we're on a call in the week and I said I don't know where this speed thing's come from and I was like it must have been because we've agreed but it is that I'm always working on a 30-day.
It's like the world's going to end.It's internal work.
It's energy, I've got it and I don't know where it comes from but in a way I think it is healthy but also you've got to imagine on a Friday that's what it is like shit can't be that my my core thing in in life it's not I've worked really hard and it was never about it's never about the money
It was about being seen to be accepted and the thought of like, slipping down the leadership board and not being it.It's that caveman thing, being kicked out.
Well after a while, money is money you've earned.So it's like, what is it after that?And it's about, yeah, perception, it's about self-worth.There's so many different things attached to it.
So- Mine's keeping me out of trouble, basically.I have to go work, I'm in all sorts of trouble.
So when you get to a point where, like say, you're working on your marriage, you stepped away, Is your dad alive at this point or is it after your dad passed?
It was during that time that I'd stepped away that he passed, yeah.
So you're dealing with so much.How did you get back to a place of, like, being at least just you and Simon being in a relationship?
Well, what happened was when he moved, I'd had a massive, massive breakdown because there was no grounding force at home whatsoever.So I ended up in the Priory.
eating disorder and booze and substance.
So a glass of booze and substance.
Yeah, but food and booze predominantly.And I'd had a major breakdown.And it was when I came out of the Priory that I'd bizarrely enough said, right, let's come back into the business.I'm fit and healthy.
So when the marriage reached again that leadership squabble, We just knew enough that I just knew innately to take a breather and it'll all be alright.
And we just... When did you realise the scale thing wasn't actually that important?It was more about making half a million and having a good life?
When you're sat in the office and you're sat in your head going, oh God, and you're looking at these faces thinking, I just don't want to be here.Give me the phone.One of the best things I ever heard was, I don't know, I like being on the phone.
And in my head I'm going, just fuck off, home. And hats off to anybody who has the resilience as a human to grow a large sales organisation because you do need to KPI staff.
They don't meet their targets and it doesn't matter how well you performance manage when you have to tell that individual, I'm sorry, but it's not working.The look on their face.
And I just, we sat down, we just looked at each other, we're not the people to do this.
But that's amazingly refreshing too, right, to understand that.I know, you know, there's 14, 15 people at Hoxho.I would never see us going down much smaller, but I don't see us getting much bigger.
Yeah, and I don't have any desire, like my, you know, across our business, I probably work really closely with three or four people. maybe five, manage no one.Like directly management of sitting down at no one.Like I'm just not that person.
I've been it and I've done an all right job at it, but it's just, I've realized now that I'm not, that is not where I'm meant to be.I'm supposed to be doing this and meeting people and inspiring and setting targets and growth.
but get me in like the nitty-gritty conversation of day-to-day performance it's just not where I'm I'm not good at it but some people are and like you say take hats off to those that do it but it's also hats off to you for realizing that it doesn't have to be that way no it doesn't and the first I you know I do make decisions quickly and I do move quickly and I think you nearly fell off your chair when I just decided to announce that but the minute we knew the coaching was going to be something I hired in
director of people because I know that that was what was missing in the last time because there are people that are utterly brilliant at coaching and developing and nurturing people and there are other people that are just not.
I can do it but I don't enjoy it and I think when you get to a point in life and business you should be doing what you enjoy and bringing that energy to your business not doing stuff you think you should.
So you've then Obviously, your dad's passed away.You've realised that I no longer need staff.What's been the last few years?How have you got to where you are now?And then we'll talk about where you are now.
Yeah, so I fully, as I say, threw myself into being a mum.I did join the PA and that was a really good learning curve, because I treated it like it's a charity, it's a job, it's a business.It's got a Christmas fair, let's get an ice rink.
And the member of the headmaster's going, what?How are we going to do that?It's all in Illinois, but that will get funny.But the way that you deal with people in a charitable organization that are peers is really different to how you run a business.
So it was a really good learning for me.Again, not my ideal comfort zone or zone of genius.So I did that, trained as a wellness coach,
after dad had got poorly I wanted to, so I trained as a wellness coach, trained in... Is that physical or mental or both?Both, yeah, life coach and a holistic health coach and set up a small coaching practice doing that.
I wasn't brilliant at it, I was good at doing speaking events and stuff and I've just It's a full-time job, being a mum.
And really, really one of the most rewarding things I've done to date is when I had a really under-confident young man who we recognised had a learning profile.He had undiagnosed ADHD, the unattentive type.What does that mean, the unattentive type?
It's just so if you've got overactive ADHD, you'll shout and be disruptive.
It's pretty obvious.Pretty obvious.
If you've got inattentive ADHD, you stare out the window and zone out. no one knew that he wasn't paying attention and his grades weren't there.So he was quiet and not causing any problems.
Yeah, and he was a watcher, he was described as a watcher and I was like, oh it's not really, I mean you've met me, you've met Simon, it's not, it's not.It's not in your DNA.No, so he wasn't playing team sports and there was all this anyway going on.
I mean he went from this really quiet, underconfident young man to a really outgoing, smashed all his GCSEs recently. That's been the most rewarding part of my career to date.And that is why we're approaching this next thing differently.
What have you done with your son to get him there?
Recognising it.Again, we got him growth mindset coaching.Advocacy was the biggest thing at school.I'm having to advocate.It's hard work.I mean, he's in inverted commas.You can't see this if you're listening.
a high-functioning neurodivergent, which is, I really hate that term.So I had to really advocate for him because neurodivergent kids are really good at masking, especially intelligent ones.That's really bad, I'm not suggesting that.
So advocating, like this is his profile, he needs extra time and exams.
How did you do that, talk to the staff?
I was really annoying, really annoying, just constantly emailing and I had to We did all of it outside the school process, all of the EP reports.And just being a champion for them at home, but never telling.
There's a really brilliant book, Brian Tracy's Maximum Achievement, and there's a chapter in it about how you shouldn't focus and tell them how to be better.You should focus on what they're already good at.And then there's another brilliant book,
I can't remember the name of it.It was for how you parent teenagers.You don't parent them, you don't tell them, you coach them.
So it's always about providing a safe space for kids and letting them... Because coaching is about letting people come to their own conclusions, right?
It's not mentorship.Mentorship is... do this, do that, we've done it, it works.Coaching is more, what do you think?And he's asking the right questions.
Yeah, letting him lead and giving him a voice.And he's an only child, so inadvertently only children do get a seat at the table.And I think had I had three, I wouldn't have noticed what was going on with him.So he's brilliant now, he's thriving.
I'm very underpaid.Taxi service, which brought me back to Harvey Jacob.
again i think i genuinely think this is the theme i'm noticing and i've known you for a while now i didn't know all this so it's been brilliant hearing it like you've you know you've got simon is pretty consistently doing one job yeah and you're doing all these different things yeah and there's quite a similar theme with everything it's like
You feel like you need to get involved in something, or you need to step away from something.And then you're healing, you're curing, you're supporting, you're changing.All of these things.None of them are just like, I wanted to take up artwork.
They're always something that you physically need.You feel like a compelling need to do.So, what's been the next step?Tell us about coming back to Harvey Jacob.
So, it was a couple of years later than planned. Talking of changing plans and moving around, I'd made some pretty chaotic life decisions.
Moved to Somerset on a whim.
So you left Southampton to go to Somerset?
It's only a couple of counties over.Jacob was going to a school.
Yeah, a couple of hours.Jacob was going to a school there.He'd got a scholarship into a really cool school.And I couldn't bear the thought of my only child being away.
So rather than rent the house out, our beautiful house that we'd spent 10 years doing up, and just sold it. in the middle of the worst, trickiest, volatile housing market that there was.
So you didn't make what you wanted?
I know we made loads of money on the house, we sold, but it was just chaotic because everyone was, it was post-Covid, you know, in that whole housing boom.So we moved to Somerset, it was a complete disaster, but it was a good... What was a disaster?
I had nothing to do.It's a quiet place.
It's cold, it's muddy, and it's just... It's not nice weather down there?
It's like in this big dip.We were literally in, um, we were, you could see Glastonbury Tor from the bottom of our, this sounds really ridiculous, bought this farmhouse with a paddock.
I thought we were going to go and live the good life and then realize, yeah, and realize I don't like changing beds in Airbnbs.I don't like not having loads of people around me.Um, and it was basically, Yeah, anyway, we moved back.
So did you take him out of the school?
So you brought him to his school and brought him back to the school?
Yeah, he was utterly miserable.Simon, at this point, was working out of an office in Wimbledon because it makes sense for work.Business was going brilliantly, as it always does.He's completely consistent.
In Somerset, he had a very miserable, lonely wife and a kid that was just not transitioning into school, who wanted to be back with his mates in the New Forest.
So he wanted to go back, even though the school sounded... Yeah, and basically it got to his GCSE options and he'd been bunking off school.It's just not him.It wasn't him.
And we all sat on the bed in this Grade 2 listed, flipping thatched cottage thing that was just so not us. And we just had this moment as a family, Jacob said, I just want to move back to the New Forest.And I went, I just want to go home too.
And Simon said, well, I never went to move in the first place.
So it's like someone, wow.
And he just literally, we had had this half term.I had taken what I now realize is probably my last wake up call from
and I had a nasty form, banged my head and literally got a wake-up call and I, May half-term, said, that's it, I'm moving back to the forest and we put the whole family down, resettled them.
How did you do it, though?Did you have to then wait to sell and buy?
Yeah, just literally packed the car up and went... So you just rented a house or something?
Yeah.And then just sold yours in the background?
Yeah.And then moved into what, you know, our home.
Are you renting now, then?No.
No, we bought... We're never moving.I'm moving out.All the chaos and change is over.I'm going out of that house in a box. or into a bungalow care home.
It is weird though, you go through these periods don't you?
We're done with that and so the final part of that was me coming back into the business in a full-time capacity.
And he no longer in Wimbledon now, he's back in New Forest.
And the plan was we will pick up where we left off with all the learnings we've got, we'll grow the team out, and we will... Why did you want to grow a team out again?Well... What's wrong with you?
What have you not learned?
Well, we did, and literally, so we'd gone through a whole tech stack upgrade that we were all good to go, we'd opened the facility to recruit into the States, like it is the on-trend thing to do, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, and we literally went to hire
And I went, oh my god, what am I doing?
What does Simon say in this?Is he telling you he wants to do it?Or is he just like, I'm not bothered.
What do you think Simon's doing in all this?Just on the phone.
So this is all your ideas.And he's just going, well, I'll keep billing so you can do what you want to do.
I've just got this massive energy that needs to be directed.And when it's directed, it's brilliant.And when it's not directed, it is disruptive.And if there's no chaos to fix, I'll create something to fix. Yeah, and that's what we were going to do.
And I literally, the thought then of, I don't, I just sat there and envisaged 2018 or whenever it was, and these faces looking at me, me thinking, oh God, I don't want to do that again.And actually, Simon's just turned, he'd just turned 50.
I'm, I'm just turned 46.And I went, we've been doing this for a long time, actually.And we've learned a lot and we've been on really good personal journeys and we've,
learnt how to be married, we've learnt how to be humans, we've learnt how to be good parents, we've learnt how to run a business from a shoebox that is still turning over the same money it has done for the last 10 years.
Maybe it's time we didn't have babies in our business, maybe we worked with others and treated them like grandchildren and love them, enjoy them, hand them back at the end of the day.That's basically how the conversation went.
I can't remember, it was like May, maybe?April?
Yeah, so I knew that I wanted, I knew in deep down that I always wanted to help other people in some capacity.
But your first reason for joining the bootcamp, wasn't it to help market Harvey Jacob though?
Yeah, it wasn't about your coaching business.
No, no, no, we were, it was about, I knew we needed a personal brand, I had the Instagram influence and stuff that I'd been done, I knew we needed it, didn't know enough about LinkedIn,
seen what you guys are doing and I went like this is awesome, they know exactly what personal branding is, they know how to do that on LinkedIn, and they're ex-recruited, so it was just a no-brainer for us.
Can I ask how you found that experience with us?Awesome.Because it was a big investment, right, for you at that time, to go, I've not done this, don't know these guys that well, seen them online.
Hang on, you've listened to the history of this, do I sound like someone who took a lot of... Nah, you probably just took about a two-minute decision.
Yeah, and then I met Bav at the expo, and just went, they're really cool people.I just got a gut feel that You're a cool company that we wanted to work with.
And how did you find the actual bootcamp?
Awesome.Yeah, awesome.It's just really, the system's easy to follow.The customer success piece and the handholdings, yeah, it's been a really, really
That's the one thing we've invested the most in.Because if I go back two, three years ago, the nuts and bolts of the product hasn't changed in terms of what I'm saying.It's evolved with LinkedIn.But what we realized was I can't get around everyone.
And I'm actually not that good at it.I'm not the right person.
So when you put the right people around someone like me, like Simon's got the right people around him, you get doing the right things and actually getting under the bonnet of every business individually, getting to know them.
I would have given up with the content had I not had the customer success team to, because I'm, if something's not going well and I can't control it and throw my energy at it, I don't get immediate results.
Yeah, which is what 90% of our industry is like.Yeah.
So having that, what do you think of this pose?
Was it Bav?You've worked with Bav right?Yeah.
Yeah, I love him.He's the opposite energy.
Yeah, he's the calmest guy in the world.
When he told me he was an ex-contract worker, I was like, what?
The thing is, Bav works harder than anyone.He's the first in and the last out every day.He's a good guy.Yeah, he's got his own way of doing things.He's not a natural extrovert, but he's incredible.
No, but he gets you done.Every time I speak to him, I end up spending money with you.
I've got an invoice now.So the first thing you do is you come and join our bootcamp to come and brand yourself as the front face of Harvey Jacobs, but then you realize quite quickly that actually that wasn't what you were going to do.
You wanted to work with other businesses in our industry.So where did this evolve from?
All these other life projects have been going on, but as far as LinkedIn and the business world was concerned, the only ever consistent in my life was my LinkedIn profile, actually, at this point.
And the minute I started becoming active on LinkedIn, there were peers from industry saying, aren't you a coach?Can you come and coach our staff?We know you personally.We know what you've been through. Can you come and talk to these individuals?
And I ended up having more conversations on LinkedIn with recruiters than I did construction.And then Bav and I were having a conversation and I said that I'm actually a qualified coach and I'd love to be able to help.
Initially, I was going to help people with mindset and what it takes to be a recruiter and be around for these years.And then it's just... We've evolved it, haven't we?
I've been involved in this.So, how would you describe it now?Coral coached is what?How would you describe it?
So, coral coached is... Simon and I have sat down because we were having a conversation.So, where can we add most value to the sector
that has given us the lifestyle that we've enjoyed, that basically we met, we've got so many good friends, like what is our give back?We are now going into the next phase of our life and career.
Let's think about what that looks like and what do we have that is the most valuable?And we had a conversation, it was like, well, what do we know best?Well, contract recruitment.And it just seemed to us
so easy because we've been doing it for so long, in a time where you didn't set up a 100% contract agency as a lifestyle, that just wasn't something that you could do.
Also, in the madness of everything you've just said on the story, the one consistent was your contract book.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.So, I mean, we literally, they've been through our journey with this.We've still got guys working on our books that we have known.They sent us presents for our weddings, they were at our wedding, we've been,
to their wedding, so we've got this incredible legacy of having been around doing contract forever.
But also, if we look at that crazy journey you've been through, you wouldn't have been able to take those risks without the contract.You couldn't have said, I'm going to take six months or a year and a half out.I'm going to go and do the PTA.
I'm going to do this and do that.You can't do it because you're staring down the barrel of donut months.
You can't make business decisions in the way that we did.So when, you know, full disclosure, our permanent revenue was all over the shop when we came to Hoxsay.
And when we, so we went through the personal brand bootcamp, we knew that we wanted to launch some type of coaching business.
And there's no way that we would have said yes to the investment with the boardroom had we not been able to go, listen, if all else fails, we're just not gonna put as much cash in the bank this year.
It's not gonna be as fun for us personally, but it's not gonna break us.
Because you got that book.Yeah, 100%.So, let's talk about
the product, because again, you've evolved it, because when you first came in, you were the coach, and now you're not the coach, you've hired a coach, and I think that's really clever, I think that's really clever, because you're not, you're really open about the fact that you're not probably the perfect person to deal with people all the time, so.
And it's not my job as founder of this business, or CEO, or director, I mean this is whatever we choose to call ourselves, It's not my job to do everything.It's my job to get the best people in, to add the most value, and to let it do its thing.
So what is the nuts and bolts of the business, and who's in the team, and what are you gonna do?
So what we did is we realized that what we've got in Simon is this consistent guy that has, for 25 years, ran a tent book of half a million quid in the UK, for someone else, for ourselves, and if he was going,
to do it all again, and we moved back to Sydney, or we moved to UAE, like, what's his process from day one?Yeah, and he just talked me through it, and I wrote it all down, and then I went, right, how would I operationally set a business up?
And we wrote it all down.Then we had this great amount of content that we went, it's a real tell, and we can sit here and tell people, but that's not how you get the best out of people.That's not the coach-client relationship.
And what would happen if someone said, can you run some extra training? You know, how do we, I need someone who can, we need to run it through a coach filter.
And I phoned up Alice Carroll, who had been head of L&D at the company that we were working for.She trained Simon, she wrote the training program that trained me.
She instilled in that company this amazing training and coaching culture that they then, they went from 18 mil to 100 mil and sold to Randstad. And Simon had been saying to me, phone Alice.Phone Alice.
I'm like, she's not going to want to work for us, with us.Phone Alice.No, she's busy.She's got her own phoner.Phoner.
But she was doing, like, freelance work across the industry.
Yeah, and she's always been training in other businesses.And I just said, she loves what she's doing.She's not going to want to work for us.And he kept persistent.Normally I'm the gut feel, just do it.And it was him that kept saying, phone Alice.
So I phoned Alice. And I literally phoned her and she said, I can't believe you phoned.I was gonna put a call in to you and one other.I really wanna come and work with people within an organisation again.And I went, do you want a job?She said yes.
And that was that.So Alice is, so we then ran all our content through a coach's filter and created.So what is the offer then?
Let's get back to basics.If someone's listening going, I'm kind of piecing together roughly what it is, but what's the offer?What can people expect?
So what we will do is work, alongside inside your business.So we're not trainers, we're not coaches, we're not advisors.
We work with you over a quarter to help you get everything you need within your leadership team to implement and grow a contract desk.And ideally what we want to be able to do is get you to a point where your operating costs are covered.
by your contract revenue, so all of your perm.
What an amazing feeling that is.
Yeah, I mean, I don't know how people run businesses without that.I just, it, for me.
Well, you know, it takes a level of energy, I think, a different type of energy.
And I think the beauty is if you can get to a point where you come in on day one and you know you're not gonna lose money, and every penny you make is profit, I mean, it's a different game completely.
And it's a bit of a, for some we've worked in a recurring revenue model, that's quite normal for a lot. It's too good to be true.It's like, is this real?
Yeah, and it's really easy.And most perm businesses don't realize that they've got everything that they need.
For us, the greatest challenge when we set up a contract business 100% was we didn't have those permanent relationships in place to be able to leverage.So a permanent business that's already got it, it's like,
it's easy for us, but we're gonna, you know, we can go through that.
Yeah, we're gonna, again, we spoke about this the other day, it's not necessarily about doing loads of new stuff, it's refocusing what you're already doing to pick it up, to actually get access to it, and positioning yourself so you know exactly what to do.
Amazing.So they're gonna get access to you, they get access to Simon, they get access to Alice?
Yeah, so they get access to Alice, we'll be live coaching with them, and Simon is available real time, on a live coach, I mean that is the gold, I mean getting that guy off his desk to give you his knowledge is gold.So he's available, I'm available.
If we look at it, he's done 25 years of half, that's 12 million in revenue.
Yeah, I worked that out, I don't know where it's all gone.
Kate is paying for today's production, just so you know.
I worked that out, yeah, school fees, yeah, a lot.
But anyway, I know I worked that out, it's a big number and to be able to get a smaller business to, you know, 10, 20 temps is a massive deal.
So, yeah, and then they were 24 hour access to us and, you know, just because we really get, you know, because the other thing that you put is he's running a desk, I'm still running a recruitment business, we really understand that in a recruitment is reactive.
And if you're having a challenge in real time, you just paying us a message and we'll be back to you.
And hopefully you've learnt from ours that Simon's knowledge alone ain't going to be enough.People are going to need the support.And that's where you and Alice come in.
He's a great inspirator.Inspirator?Is that a word?Inspiration?Source of inspiration.But he's not a coach.I mean Alice is just so talented at getting the best out of people. operationally for mine.
I mean that's some horror stories but we could probably do another whole hour on that.
And how can people get involved?Do they just message you online?Is there any other way?
Yeah, they can message me on LinkedIn or you can email me kate at coralcoached.com.Happy.
Kate at Coral Coach.Kate, This has been incredible.I knew we'd have... And an hour's gone pretty quick, right?
I was worried.What was I going to talk about?
What were you going to talk about?One thing I'm doing this season, which is I'm taking previous guests, I'm asking them questions to ask my new guests so that I get a slightly different opinion on good questions to ask.
And one of the ones that I've been given by a previous guest is... What is the one thing you wish you'd known earlier in your career that would have the biggest impact?
So what do you know now that you wish you'd have known earlier to have a big impact?
When we set the business up, set it up and get the fuck out of the way.It's not about you.That is the biggest learning I've taken.
Even if you don't want a huge business, even if you want a lifestyle business?
Yeah, it's not you.The business isn't you.The business is the business.You are you.Treat it as a business.And have boundaries around it.
Wow.Give me an example of a boundary.
How you manage the finances in the business.It's not, you know, business isn't your private bank account that you take out of.You've got to treat it with respect.Working hours, you know, the phone.
And I think, you know, when we set the business up, there was no iPhones or no... LinkedIn wasn't as busy as it is now, but there are times in the day where you're just not on your phone.
And as a husband and wife team, again, we were so personally invested in it, and it was us. that we could have lost ourselves in it.
Too much blurred lines.So it's almost like removing the emotion a bit and trying to create and treat it like a business.
You make much better decisions when you're not making decisions based on emotion.
And that's what I reckon a lot of the people you'll work with in the choral coach will be emotionally driven because of the way that they've run their businesses and they've lived and died by the month performance.
And I think it's easy to say it and hard to do it because I'm one that, you know, even now, Sometimes I think I've come off her.
come off a call that's gone bad, whether it be an internal call, an external call, and then I've gone in to say dinner with my family, and I'm not the same guy that I would have been an hour earlier.
But I'm aware of it, and I'm always trying to improve it.And I think that's half the battle.One of the things I want from this season of the show is it's not all recruitment, recruitment, recruitment stories.
It's about people and humans and life, because what's the fucking point?I don't see any point in growing a successful recruitment business if you're not happy as a person, if you're not where you want to be.
Some people would argue against that but I think success is measured and grace is measured not by your balance sheet or your headcount, it's measured by the time that you get with your family and your loved ones and
If that's what you want.Some people love getting the fuck away from the family for a week.They absolutely love it and that makes them happy.I quite love my husband.
Same, my wife's just been away for three days as you know and I've been well excited about coming home.But some people like being in the office five days a week, coming home two days a week, whatever.I just think it's about you
authentically living in your way.So you're like, this does align with my values.And I think that's much easier when you've got consistent revenue.
Because if money's not the main thing in your mind all the time, you can then be a bit more relaxed with your decision making.You can sit there more objectively.
But when you're sat there thinking, I need to pay the fuck you've built, that's when people do anything.That would be stressful.That's when people do anything to me, and they make bad decisions.That's not for me.Kate, thanks so much.Thank you.
I wish you the best of luck.Obviously, I'm involved in this business.I think it's an amazing idea that needs to come to the sector. If anyone wants to ask me my opinion, they can.
If anyone wants to just ask you any questions, even if they're not going to buy anything right now, reach out to you and we'll get you back on in the future and get an update.
Pleasure.Thank you as always for listening to today's show.I truly hope that you got value from it.
Honestly, it's the only reason I take time every week to ensure that my audience, you guys, future and existing recruitment owners, you're learning from each other to make this industry that I love so much stronger.
And today's episode is brought to you by my business, Hoxho.I'm the CEO and founder, and we're on a mission to help brand recruitment agencies and their people better.
I want to help people have the tools to stand out in the most competitive markets in the world.So I'll see you again next week with another episode.Catch you soon.
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