Welcome to the RAG podcast, the weekly show where I interview recruitment owners who are prepared to tell their unique story of growth.This is all in aid of helping future and existing recruitment businesses who are looking to do similar things.
Now, growth means different things to different people.So by tuning in every week, you're no doubt gonna find information that's relevant to you. On today's show, I'm joined by Paul De Rosario.
Paul is the founder of Fusion Search, a recruitment business which he's operated for 20 years, loosely recruited into change and transformation across FinTech, but it's been a generalist business, a business that Paul set up with no experience.
He'd never done a day in recruitment, and he's been building multiple hundreds of thousands.In some years, he's done over seven figures a year on his own without any training, any experience whatsoever.
But he's now launching a business called Beyond the Founder, which is something I've been involved helping him with because I've worked with him for the last 12 months.
Beyond the Founder is a business where he's going to be working with high growth, ambitious recruitment companies all over the world to basically learn from his mistakes and build a business set of scale and growth.
In this episode, I want to talk about how Paul entered the industry with no experience, why he did that, how he got to building seven figures a year, and why
he's decided to change his direction based on a lack of fulfillment, based on wanting to be excited again and get that fire back in his belly.
So, there's so much for you to learn here, not only how to build a business, how to grow, but also how to check in with yourself and ensure that you're happy on the way.Without further ado.Paul, welcome to The Rag Podcast.
Sure, and thank you so much for having me.
It's absolutely brilliant to be here.
Absolutely, sun is shining.
Sun is shining in my Well, not my hometown growing up, but where I'm stationed now.
I don't know if I'll ever leave Sheffield now.Beautiful setting here.
Good spot, innit?Yeah, beautiful setting.
Very green.All about the green.Cool.Look, thanks so much for coming, mate.It's a pleasure to have you.Obviously, I know you pretty well. I know your story, which is why I'm so excited to have you on the show, but people probably don't know you.
So before we get into the story, do me a favor, just tell us who you are and what you do.
Paul Rosario, founder of Fusion Search, primarily.Fusion Search is a permanent search agency focusing on mid to senior level hires across FinTech, across change and transformation projects mainly.
In FinTech, covering HR, risk and compliance, and delivery mainly. But I'm also just about to launch, in fact I think by the time this goes out it may well have launched, Beyond the Founder.
Beyond the Founder, and we work with ambitious recruitment agencies globally, putting their senior leadership teams in.So all the non-sales-focused, critical senior hires into growing and ambitious agencies.And I cannot wait to get them going.
I'm excited about this one.
We've been planning this for a while.
We have indeed, yeah.As you can see, I've got a big smile on my face.
So me and you met, we'll tell the whole story.So me and Paul met about Probably, what was it?It was about a year ago.
I think it was autumn time and I remember it was autumn time because I was walking my dog, two dogs, and you'd had a conversation with one of my team and then you were like, I think I need a call with Sean just to fully understand.
this solution of what we're going to do together.And I remember when you phoned me, I was picking up dog poop.Literally.I was like, give me a second mate.I'm picking up my dog's poop.
And, uh, and I remember having two of them and I had poo bags and I was pulled pillar to post.But then we had the most incredible 20 minute conversation.And I remember, I remember understanding you like that.
It was like, I got where you were coming from.I knew exactly where where you, like the pain you were experiencing and the things you'd been through.And that was that, and that was it.Like I say, I can't believe it was a year ago.
Yeah, it was a year ago, and it was absolutely spot on.You know, I'd decided I wanted to make some changes, which we'll come on to later.I spoke to a number of people, really good people, you know.I'd done my research, I'd done my due diligence.
We'd never spoken, but I knew who you were from the branding, and I knew exactly what I wanted to talk to you. But I also knew that I wasn't a typical recruiter.My story is not typical.
And so it was painful, and what I wanted was very different from what most people would want.And we got on the phone, and within five minutes, I was like, yeah, this guy gets me.This is it.I'm done.I'm happy.
And then I set you quite a big challenge from there, which we'll come on to.
So let's go back.How did you get into recruiting?
What's the story? Yeah, my entry into recruitment was slightly different.So I worked for a family business.I graduated.I lived in Liverpool.I graduated.Where did you grow up?I grew up in London, near Wembley.Really?
Yeah, so I could hear all the concerts and the matches from my garden at Wembley Stadium.
So your accent's now a bit more Midlands, like you live near Birmingham?
15 years.My wife is from the Midlands, so I went from London to Liverpool. Went to uni there and graduated.You didn't pick up the scowl then?Do you know what?Depending on who I was, sometimes there's a bit of a twang that comes out.
But I think because I've been in the Midlands, it's centralised a little bit more, which is fine.When I talk to people from home, it goes really cockney.And then when I'm up in Liverpool, I get a little scowl.I don't try, it just naturally happens.
I graduated and I was going to do a Masters. At the time my dad had a business, it was doing well.It wasn't massive, it was about 30 people.They manufactured radiator cabinets.He created and designed them.
them, set up a little unit, started manufacturing, got some customers, and was growing the business.So I wanted to do a master's, because I didn't have a clue what I wanted to do.
And I was on the steps about the sign up, and my dad had said, if you want to do it, I'll pay you digs and we can support you.But why do you want to do it?And I said, well, I want to get into business.I want to learn.He said, right, well, stop that.
Come and work for me.You'll have to work hard. and you'll be merchandising, go around to all the stores, all the, his clients were global major retailers, Wix Home Base B&Q.
He said, you know, one of them accounts, you'll go around all the stores merchandising it, make sure the displays look all right.
But the deal is, you will come down and be at every single board meeting, every supplier meeting, every client meeting, and I want you to come into them and you keep your mouth shut and your ears open.
And afterwards, you'll ask me whatever questions you want, but that's how you'll learn about a grand business.
So he sold that to you as opposed to you going, Dad, can I have a job?
Absolutely.I didn't want to work for him.I see my brother work for him and he's a nightmare.
So what did he see in you, do you think?
I think he just thought, you can go and do a masters and have another year up in Liverpool and what are you going to get from that?
Or if you're serious about learning how a business runs and working that way, because I was always a bit entrepreneurial, I was one of that guy that in college ran the school discos and... So I did, yeah.
Yeah, a lot of work that was, not a lot of reward, but I was always that guy, I always wanted to do something for myself. And I thought, you know what, that's an opportunity.
But I'd also seen that people think when you work for a family business, you get the rubber, the green.You don't.It's the other way around.They make an example of you.Well, my dad made an example.I went to work hard.
You can always be too non-biased, right?I mean, you can always make your life harder.
It did.It did make my life harder.And so I had to work harder than everyone else.And my opinion had to be validated.And I had to back everything up.But it was brilliant.And very cleverly, what he did was, I was in Liverpool.The factory was in Dorset.
And so he said, right, board meetings every Monday morning, nine o'clock. So I had to drive.So you stayed in Liverpool?
You didn't move back to London?
Yeah, we had paid a year's rent up there for the Masters, so I had no choice.He said, I've paid the rent, you're staying there.But I had to leave at four o'clock every Sunday morning, drive to Dorset, have the board meeting, go and do my bits around.
But I was driving around the country anyway, so.And then I'd have to go back down there on a Thursday morning.He typically did his client and supply meetings on a Thursday, Friday if he could.And then I'd have time with him and drive back up.
I was doing about 80,000, 90,000 miles a year. It was brilliant, loving it and learning.
At that age, there's probably not many better jobs than being out and about.
On the road, it was brilliant.Freedom to do it.But then you're backing that up with you actually learning something tangible, you're understanding how it works.And then I'd stay with my dad and I'd ask him questions.
But at the same time, it was scaling.The business was growing.It went from 30 people to 200 people in a matter of a couple of years.Across two geographies, he set up a factory in Eastern Europe as well as in the UK.
And I noticed that we were spending a fortune with agencies.And when I'd speak to my brother, who was running the operations, he was running the factory, his biggest headache was staff, was recruiting.And we were spending fortunes.
So my little brain started ticking into gear.And I thought, we can do this better.There's got to be a way of doing it better.
So I went away and spoke to a couple of the suppliers and went and seen the visits when they were on factory visits and talked to them. and I put a plan together to take our recruitment in-house.
Sounds really naive when you say it now, but at the time I thought this was going to be my future.
So I put it all together and just when I was going to present to the board to do it and ask for the funding and whatnot, my dad announced he was shutting the UK operation and moving all to Eastern Europe.Because he wanted to save cost.
Cost of production.I mean, they had a factory fully functioning out there.There was no need for both.And the clients were on board with it.Everything was fine.And the supply was working.
So it meant that not only was I not going to be the in-house recruiter, I was also redundant. Why?Because I didn't want to move to Eastern Europe, effectively, because... But surely the clients were here, weren't they?
The clients were here, yeah, but... Was your job not more client-facing?The landscape changed.It was.The landscape changed in terms of how you merchandise and people coming into store and how it was changed.
So I'd moved on from being a merchandiser at that point to an account manager.Right.So it was fine.I had a choice, effectively.I could either
So I could either take some redundancy and do something myself, or I could effectively be out in Lithuania much more, which is what my dad wanted, really.
You would have been his successor, right?Effectively.
Well, both of us would have been.But Mark didn't want to.He had two kids, so he didn't want to go out to Lithuania at that point, and that influenced my decision.So I just said, you know what, Mark?I'm going to start an agency.
He said, are you going to do that?I said, I'm just going to do it. So, I literally picked up... What year is this?So... And how old are you at this point?24.So, you've been working for your Dad since you were 21?
So, you only did three years?
Yeah. But what I've seen in that three years was phenomenal.
What's your life like at this point?
Are you with your current wife?
I'd met Lucy whilst working for my dad.So I was 22.She was working for RBS in insurance claims and whatnot.So she was starting to build a career.She'd just graduated. And life was good.It was hard.I'd been doing well.I'd bought a flat.I was doing OK.
But I wanted more.I was ambitious.I thought, let me take what I'd learned and experienced and create something for myself.So I set up an agency. And at the time I didn't have a clue what I was doing.
I'd never been trained, never been taught, never worked for an agency.But I just felt I can do this better from what I've seen.So I literally picked up the yellow pages at the time and my phone.
We hired an office in the middle of Liverpool City Centre in the Corn Exchange.And I remember I needed to get insured in the office.And Jardine Lloyd-Thompson came in to insure us and he looked around.
And he said to me, have you ever done this before?I said, no, but I'll be all right.He said, I can't insure you. I said, why?He said, you'd be bust in six months.And he said, I can't do that to you.I said, I won't.He said, you will.
I said, I bloody won't, mate.
What was your plan at the time?So what did you set out to recruit for?Was it the staff that were in the businesses like you'd worked?
Yeah, so it was SMEs.It wasn't necessarily manufacturing, but it was SMEs who were looking to grow.So our target, obviously you look at your contact lists and your data and you start targeting certain businesses.And it worked because
Even though I hadn't recruited per se, I understood what they needed.So my attitude was very much... Right, I need to understand exactly what you need here.
Why, who the business is, what they're going to be doing, what the opportunities are, what the ownership is like because the DNA of an SME comes from the ownership typically and filters through.
So I had to make sure I understood everything about the type of person they wanted and then go out into the market and find the best people.It was pure, the purest form of recruitment.
So where were you based at the time, Liverpool?
So you had a little office. And what, just bashing the phone?
Bashing the phone, bashing the phone.And it was a chicken and egg scenario because, you know, you couldn't get candidates without having a role.
And we did things like we set up in the Chamber of Commerce and we advertised in the Chamber of Commerce diary, which was brilliant, by the way, because SMEs all in the Chamber of Commerce.And I was quite honest with people.
And when I'd get work in, I couldn't lie and say I had this big background in recruitment.But what I could say was, I understand what you want.
You had a story within business that some recruiters don't have.
And I came from that angle.So I came out from, look, I can find you the people as long as I know exactly what you want and who you want and why.
And I had to then be better than everyone else because I was competing against people with databases and reputations, with networks, with a brand. And so it was a harder way of doing it, but it worked.
And it didn't, I said it worked, I said that's not true.The first role I ever placed was a travel agent.So I was working for a travel agency and they were looking for a salesperson.And it was a real niche specific, it was high end luxury travel.
And we found someone after about three days.I had two really good candidates, and I placed it.And the hardest thing I've ever had to do was tell the girl that she wasn't successful.One of them and the other one.
Yeah, because she was a lovely, really strong candidate.And the guy who got the job, I was buzzing.And I made one of my first errors in recruitment.I told the girl first, right?Because I thought, get the bad news out of the way.
I still remember the guy's name.He got the job.He counter-offered and pulled out about three days later.And I was like, you're joking me.Is this what actually happens in this game?
But no one had taught you any of this?No, no, no.You've not had any agency experience?
No, no.I know.I just literally, I just thought he was finding the best people for the job, which I suppose in its truest form.
In a way, the naivety I suppose of that is probably what's worked for you, people have like bought into you, you're not like, you've not got that, what's the word?You're not being trodden on by like agency processes and you just authentically did it.
Yeah and I had to learn from my mistakes and you learn very quickly because you can't make the same mistakes twice.
What happened with that?Did you get that woman in or not?The one when you said no to her?
No and that was my mistake.You had to go back and find someone else?Yeah effectively but it just took time and you, What you don't realise is the lead time.So when we set up the business, I remortgaged my flat.We had a runway of about six months.
And I thought, plenty of time.
So that's the year I came to Sheffield for uni. I thought, I'll back myself here.Six months, I'll get this done.
You don't factor in the amount of time it takes, the notice periods, then you've got to invoice, then you've got to pay, and your time's getting cashed.I'm paying bills here.So that six-month runway disappeared like that.
And then you're taking a couple of people on, so you're then trying to train them, even though you train them in your way, not the typical way. Cash goes, you're burning cash.So you're thinking, shit, what do I do with you?
And so you're forced, you've got no choice but to go out, hit the phones, make it work, and deliver what you need to deliver.
Did you go and get any kind of like, runway loans or?
No, personally, so I was paying people, and I was paying myself on a credit card.
And it got to a couple of years in, when my brother was doing it with me at the time, and it was like, this isn't sustainable.You know, about 18 months in, this isn't sustainable, we've got to make some changes here.
So your brother left when you left your dad's business?
Yeah, he left to come and work with me. And then about 18 months in, he had two kids, so I was basically funding it.
I think the first six months we did virtually nothing, and it was about 70, 80 grand a year for the next 18 months, which was all right.In Liverpool, the salaries were lower and the fees were lower.
So I had something that I knew was sustainable for one person, it wasn't sustainable for both.So my brother went and worked back, working with my dad, and I carried on.It was a struggle, Sean, I'm not going to lie.
And you were recruiting mainly in Liverpool?
In Liverpool, local businesses, in Liverpool.And what would happen is I would literally, it got to the point where I needed to earn cash.
So my ideas of growing SMEs and whatnot went out the window and I would just then literally be referred into someone, take whatever work I could.
And my philosophy was, I will not take something on if I don't believe I can fill it and fill it properly because I don't have time.I need to earn money.And that was great. I started on my own.But you're burning cash.I got into debt.
Being honest with you, I got into a shitload of debt.How much were you talking?At the time, about £35,000, £40,000, which... Kicks you up at night, that kind of money, at that age as well, if you're 26 or something.
I remember, this is going to sound stupid, but there was a bit of an epiphany.I was watching Deal or No Deal one day. I could go on and I could get for 50 grand and what's it going to get me?
And I know it sounds really stupid, but as a 25, 26 year old, the magnitude of that debt really impacts you and your way of thinking, it sort of swallows you up a little bit.
So I was doing things, I went consulting back with my dad for a little period to try and get some cash in whilst working in recruitment.And I thought, I've got to change something here.
Are you living with your wife at this point?
We're caught in, so we've just moved in together.
So again, you've got that in the back of your mind that there's a responsibility coming.You probably don't think too much, but if you're going to live with your partner and it's a long-term person, bills just start to add up.
Voltages come into the conversation.
You're limited by your time in terms of what you can do.So I realised something had to change.
So I started looking at a network, I started looking at Liverpool, I started looking at higher salaries in different roles and making calls to roles that I knew I could fill in manufacturing or industrial or whatever.
with bigger salaries and outside of Liverpool.And it worked to the point where I realised I could do this without having to meet every candidate, without having to, I could put a process in place where I could deliver outside of that.
And I just literally hit the phones and it got to the point in 2007, when I was actually, okay, this is working now.I'm still in debt, but I'm on a more of a level playing field.I can understand what I need to do.
And it was a meeting with a guy that I'd worked with previously.He was a regional HR advisor, giving me some roles.I'd done well.And he had moved to a large firm at FinTech in London.
And I just called him one day and said, I haven't spoken to you for a little while, I know you've moved.He said, well, I'm in charge of recruitment now, come and see me.
And that was like a tinderbox, when I went and met him, opened up a whole new world.
And that wasn't in Liverpool?
It wasn't in Liverpool, it was in London.Right.
And I realised, actually, and he'd given me a role, a really tough role to fill, and I was competing with three other agencies, and he said, I'm not going to tell the business we've worked together previously, you're on your own.
and you need to prove yourself here because ultimately that's how you're going to get in.And I smashed it.And the girl I placed, I still work.So she's now a global HR director and I work with her closely still.
And so all of a sudden you've got this guy who's not niched at all.I've done, I'm following the money.I'm following the roles, right?And I'm getting referred in everywhere.I've never had to look for work.
After that first three, two years on the phones, I've never had to look for work.It always just came to me.And if I could do the role and believe I could fill it, I was chasing the money.
Were you open to telling people no?All the time.
If I can't fill it, I'm not going to waste my time.
I think that is genuinely the difference.I think what we're going to evolve and talk about is the fact that your business has got to a point where it was a product of its own success.
So you've gone in, you've done such a good job for someone, you've then been given something else, and you've been given something else, and you've got this high benchmark where you say, unless I'm going to fill it, I'm not taking it.
So what you've created is a very non-niche down business.Profitable, successful, but you can't recycle anything, it's always starting from scratch.And that was the symptom, but at least you've had the backbone to say no to things.
Where people have gone down that route and failed is because they've said yes to everything.And then they're wasting it, they're pissing in the wind, they're wasting their time, they're not filling jobs.
And yeah, you're better off quitting and going and getting a job somewhere else.
My clients were my biggest source of help, right?Because they would actually, because you're doing a good job for them.And what would happen is, it's very rare to get a resource.The roles I get are really niche roles, really hard to fill ones.
It was a case of throat of Paul, he'll do that.Throat of Fusion, they will fill that.Most of the time, they don't even know what they want.And I will talk with them and work it through.But bear in mind, I only seen recruitment from one lens, right?
You fill roles.That's how you make your money.Not interested in temporary.Not interested in that side.I will fill a plan roles.I can know, I can control my time and I back myself to do it.Um, I didn't know if recycling candidates was a thing.
I didn't know about specking.What do you mean specking candidates?I've got to find you a job, mate.I'm busy. I'm really sorry, I've got five roles here to fill, I can't get you a job.
I can't take that risk, I can't control what you're gonna do, whereas I can control three brilliant candidates for that role.And I know one of them will likely get it.So I'd only seen it from one side, and that was, to this day, still how I work.
Never been taught, never been trained.
You never even used a CRM either, did you?No, never used a CRM.So how do you log anything, where do you put it?Don't tell me it's in the back of the old...
Handwritten books is funny actually.In my garage I've got a wardrobe and it's about 180. binders and written books.
And do you know what you're doing in them?Are they all there?
Yeah, there's a system.It's just handwritten.So I know exactly what I'm doing.
Going back to 1999, yeah.
It is going back to 1999, but it works for me, right?And to try and change that, I was always that busy with what I was doing to try and make a change, and it was working for me.It was filling roles, the business was profitable.
I paid off my debt in six months once I got this running.
If we fast forward a bit, so you go 2004 to 7 is a really difficult, you're just figuring shit out, you're not making money, you're in debt.
Then, that one role in London opened up a world where you've realised, I don't need to focus on Liverpool, I just need to focus on quality business wherever, and do the same form of work.
Which worked, because we got married and moved back to Birmingham.Right.And my intention was go back to Birmingham, set up another office.
Were you then going to focus on Birmingham, or were you going to keep it?No, no, no.So just nationwide?Nationwide.Right. How was the next few years on a high level? revenue, what sort of numbers did you do, and did you enjoy it?
Talk us through what life was like, because you're then building a family, you're a bit older, what was it like?
Well, bear in mind, right, I'd seen, for the first four or five years, it was mainly SMEs, and I was doing, worked through their business, so board level down, so I was recruiting senior level.I'd also seen how businesses grow.
I'd watched my dad do it over the years a number of times.He was never there, right?He was always away working, or business took priority.We had a great life, don't get me wrong. But my mum effectively raised me and my two brothers.
And I remember looking at it thinking, you can be turning over 15 million, 20 million quid if you're only making 100 grand, what's the point, right?So I'm looking at it, I don't want to be that guy.I want to be there for my children.
I want a stable relationship.I know so many successful people whose marriages have suffered, whose kids have suffered, whose health has suffered.For what at the end of the day?
some kind of monetary number and legacy that... Yeah, legacy.
And listen, don't get me wrong if that's what someone wants to do.But people have this misconception that to be successful, you have to grow and have 15 people.You don't.No.You don't.It's what you want.How do you define success?
And I was earning very, very good money.You're building three, four, five hundred grand from your bedroom with no overhead.
So let's talk about that.How does that change you?So you've come from a decent background, so growing up you must have been in a nice enough environment, so you had a bit of money in the house and you weren't... We weren't destitute, no.
So you know what money's like, but you've obviously... My fear, I'll be honest, my fear now is the situation I'm in, my kids are going to grow up, or they are growing up in a completely different world than I grew up.
I grew up with nothing and now I've got, you know, I'm taking them on holidays to Dubai twice a year and all these things.My fear is, will they have drive and ambition?
Whereas you've, your dad's somehow installed that you've got drive and ambition, you know?So he's done well.How did it change you when the money started rolling in and you started to hit a different level?
Do you know what?It didn't.I had a very different view on it in terms of I never want to go back to that place.Selling DVDs on eBay and paying the mortgage.Do you know what I mean?It was bad.Really bad.For quite a while.So it was that fear almost.
When you were in recruitment you were selling DVDs on eBay?
At times, yeah.Because I was paying other people.I was paying myself on a credit card.Mate, I've been Yeah, it's been tough.
I think the funny thing is selling DVDs.Imagine doing that now.They're like antiques now.
I had a great collection.It went down well.Although pulling up in a car park in Liverpool with a bag of DVDs isn't probably the most... Get a fiver for that one.So it didn't, but what does happen is you get yourself on a sure foot.
I was always cautious going back to that place.I always made sure the business was really sound financially.
Did you have some kind of rules around what you did with each?
I had to have a certain amount of runway at all times.Which is how much?12 months, 17 months, yeah, at all times.
To you, what's that, like 150k or something?A bit more than that, yeah.
But a minimum, absolute minimum, because I know if anything happens to me or anything happens that there's... you're going to be all right.It's a lifestyle business, right?So it didn't change.
But what happens, though, is your lifestyle adapts to what you're earning.You know, when you earn more, you start spending more, typically.Well, I did anyway.Most people, I think.
What did you do?What was simple?
You buy a bigger house, you buy nicer cars, you go on nicer holidays, you buy nicer clothes, you go to different bars, different restaurants, whatever.Your lifestyle just adapts accordingly because you can.
I was never overextending myself, never stretched.I always made sure I had
comfort zone but your lifestyle does adapt accordingly and you start getting to a point where you enjoy that yeah you really enjoy it you can see your kids assemblies you can go to sports day.
What you've done here is what I think people Some people know they want, others don't realise how powerful this is.Some people, and there'll be people on the show that'll talk about their journey and want to grow headcount and that's cool.
This show is not about one way or the other, it's about building growth in your own direction, right?But what you've done is similar to what I want to do, is making significant profit whilst not killing yourself.
Still having the opportunity to go, I will go to that assembly.I've just took yesterday off to have my kids off school.I didn't have to ask anyone.I didn't have to think about it.
I'm like, yeah, I won't be on Monday because I'm going to take the kids. If I had a hundred staff now who desperately needed me and there was fires burning everywhere, I wouldn't have been present with my daughter yesterday.
No, and that's exactly right and that's why I do this and I made the decision that I want to be there.I want to be there for my children growing up.I want a fantastic relationship with them.
I'm close to my dad but it's different to my mum, the bond, because he wasn't there as much, right?Even though I love them to pieces. And so I didn't want that.I wanted to pick my kids up from school.I'd never compromise on the morning school run.
Always do it.The afternoon you can't do it.Always go to assembly sports days.My daughter involved in her football.And that for me is what really drives me on.
now they're getting a little bit older, and we'll come on to this in a bit, I'm ready for a slightly different challenge, which is taking me to here.
But the other problem with it, Sean, being totally honest with you, you can become a slave to that as well.
Into the business, because you're used to earning a certain level of money, right?Your lifestyle's adapted accordingly.You sort of lose sense of the why.And because it's all on you, and because that pressure's all on you,
You can struggle to be present as well.You go into overdrive, you're running quarters off, you're doing everything.Tell us about that, what have you been through?Oh mate, I'm all or nothing, as I think you know.
It might take me five seconds to make a decision, it might take me five months, but if I'm doing it, I'm doing it.And I take things really personally. Now, bear in mind, I've got no benchmark, right?I've never worked in a recruitment agency.
I don't know what good profit is.I don't know what I should be billing.I don't know what a good fee is.I don't care.I just want to bill and earn that to give my family the lifestyle I want to give them.You can become consumed by that.
And when you take things personally, I'm a classic.I mean, I've had counseling for it.I'll talk about that.But I'm an imposter syndrome.I'm a people pleaser.I like to know that I'm valued and wanted.It's all the classic traits.
When I take a role on or I work with a client or an assignment or a project, I take it really personally.It's not just about filling the role, it's about my self-worth attached to what I do.
Even though there's things that are so much out of your control, but I need to make sure if I'm going to either not fill something, which is exceptionally rare, or not do it,
I've done everything I possibly can in my power to make sure that if it doesn't work, it's not through any fault of mine. And that comes with consuming because you don't want to walk away a lot of the time.
So what would be the symptoms of that in your day to day?So how would that affect you?
If the things are, until I know I've completed everything I need to do to find the best, I can have three brilliant candidates after an hour.I will still go and go and go to make sure they are the best ones I can find.
And the symptoms of that are it becomes a bit consuming.So I find myself getting up at six in the morning, getting on the laptop, finding, and then I can go till nine, 10 o'clock at night.And I don't wear that with a badge of honor, by the way.No.
So how would you, how would you do that?So you get up six, stop when the kids get up, do the breakfast, do a school run, back on it.And then what time, how would you manage the evenings?
I'd go to the office or I'd be at home and then I would have an hour with the kids. But if you're not careful, that hour, you're not there.
Yeah, you're physically there.
You're physically there, but you're not there.And my kids notice it.Because your wife noticed it.Massively.She's a saint.My wife is a saint.Had to put up with me.Lucy is, I couldn't do what I do without her.It's as simple as that.
Even though she's not involved in the day-to-day recruitment, she runs everything I do mentally.She runs it because I could be a nightmare at times and have these crazy ideas and things run away with me.
And because I'm on my own in that way, you don't have someone to, you've got Am I Right, you can bounce off, you've got, I don't have that.
No, I don't know if I could have handled being a solo producer.I just don't know if I'm capable.
It's tough, it's tough and you lose, you can lose sight of it.And again, because you've not got that benchmark, it's very, it can be very lonely.So you've got to be careful if you're going to do that, that you have your switch-offs.
that you have your ability to be present.So in other words, the things that you're doing it for, you're actually doing.You're not a slave to your own business.Does that make sense?Yeah.
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If we fast forward then to like a year ago,
I was never niched down because I was mushroomed in.I would go and I would be given roles across different functions, different areas, senior hires, and I was filling them and it was great.
So effectively, I was just referred into different areas and different businesses.I did semi niche down to industry and certain types of roles. but I could never guarantee where my next role was coming from.
Try to take people on, it's too much for them.They like being in a niche, knowing what they're doing and focusing on that area, especially in recruitment.So I struggled to take people on, but there was one guy who I ended up, I knew his parents.
His mum was in recruitment for 20 years.I thought he could do this.He was working in construction in Birmingham, ripping it up, doing really, really well for a large reconstruction agency.White collar construction. I thought he could do this.
So I made him an offer to come and join me.And the plan was he would eventually become an equal partner and take over Fusion.I was going to give him banking.I was going to give him the banks to work.I made him the offer.He agreed to join me.
And it was counter-offered massively.So the one person I thought, I've got this.It was upstair where he was.So I carried on what I was doing, tried to recruit again. whilst I was doing what I was doing, struggled.
And six months later, he phoned me and said, look, I made a mistake.Can I meet?So I'm thinking, great, brilliant.My plan's back on.And he sat down and said, look, I don't want to work for you.I want to work with you.
Will you set me up in construction group?And we'll split the business 50-50.So if you keep doing Fusion, do what you want with it, but just help me to get running, to be able to grow.
I thought, brilliant.But his plan was to grow that.He wanted to scale it.So I thought, okay, this is brilliant.This gives me the ability to niche down and scale something.But keep what you've got.But keep what I've got.
And it was working really well.And the first six months he had non-compete clauses, we opened up new doors, opened up new avenues, business was doing well.And we were scaling, we were taking people on.It was enjoyable.It was great.
I was learning in terms of that industry as well, while still working Fusion. And the plan was eventually to join the two businesses together and have different divisions.Then COVID hit.And it was like, shit, you know, construction stopped.
Well, temp construction didn't because people still, because in terms of projects that are ongoing, permanent hiring stopped. Fusion stopped as well.
But luckily we had run the business, both of them in such a way that... How long had he been running before COVID?
Three years.So he had a decent run.
I've made sure there was cash in the business.So he was fine.I mean, he didn't have to worry.He literally could just take the time and whatnot.But again, that stopped that growth.
But to be fair, it was one of those whereby the plan with Alex was always very much, he said, I want to learn what you know.So the first 12, 18 months was about that.Put some money in the bank.Let's make this secure.
And then we look to do what we want to do.And you decide, I'll help you and back you, but you decide how you want it to grow.He said, fine.Obviously, Covid then launched right in the middle of that.
And that kind of brings me a bit more up to speed to a year ago, because what happened was, about 18 months ago, Alex got married.Fusion was doing really well.
And he got married and he got to the point where that business was always going to be a scalable business.I had a lifestyle business.I wanted one that was going to scale.And when he got married, I knew what was coming.He wanted a family.
So we sat down and he's 15 years younger than me.We're at very different places in our lives.We had a meeting and he said, look, I think I want a lifestyle business, Paul.I don't want to scale this.
So I'm thinking, I get that, mate, but I don't want two lifestyle businesses.It's absolutely pointless. I could just do it for myself.I'm going to do that.So we agreed that he would buy me out.And we agreed that over a 12-month period.
And what happened was, that was almost like my future, the growth. gone.And, you know, I got pittance to the value of what I should have got from him, but I wanted to set him up.
How do you structure the deal to sell it?Because that's what people would like to know.
Well, you get the business value, which is fine.But then I knew that if he had to buy me out at that valuation, he would be able to grow. He'd struggled to survive.He shut him down.So I didn't do that.
I just said, right, this is what I probably would have earned out of it over the next 12 months.Give me half that, effectively.And you just take it and just go and run with it.Because you can make money, you can't make friends.
And Alice became one of my best friends in that time.
Why wouldn't you have just kept hold of it and supported him and just got a revenue stream out of it?
Because you know what?He's a young guy doing really, really well.He's got a family on the way.He's just got married.I've been there.And he didn't need... You don't want a mill around your neck.He didn't need 50% from you.No, 50%.He looked at it.
I said, no, just go and do your thing.Your friendship is much more important to me.
That says everything about you though.So many people want to do that.
His dad actually said, what are you doing?Did your dad?No, my dad doesn't, but he does now.But his dad, Alex's dad said, look, because he's very, very successful.Alex's dad has done well for himself.He said, look, are you sure?
I said, look, Simon, he needs to go and fly and I'll back him and I'll support him and I'll make sure I'll still give him what he wants, but I'm going to enjoy his journey.And he's doing really well.They're growing again now.
But what happened was when that hit, I realised that I'd been running on quarters off in years.I'd been running on empty.Fusion was flying.The post-COVID boom was phenomenal.I was on my own and did exceptionally well for that period.
Supporting Alex, he was growing and doing really well.And you don't have time to stop and think.So for the last two, three years, I'd been running on just adrenaline.So when that stops, you just, you burn out.
You burn out and you're like, shit, I need to do something here because I can't keep functioning the way I've been doing.Think with a clear head.The market started to change a little bit.I could see it dropping off.
So I thought, you know what, rather than go and chase work now, we've got money.I don't need to worry about financing for years.I'm all right. What do I want now?
I don't want to be just that guy filling roles for Fusion Search, even though I love my clients and I enjoy it.I'm not wedded to FinTech.I'm not wedded to anything.I'm just filling roles for people I like working with, right?
But so you're basically given work from previous relationships and their friends and contacts and it's random work, it's valuable work.Like say, what level are we talking, like roles?
C level down to, so I tend to work C level, C minus one, so VP, director, head of, so you're talking minimum salary's 100, I'd do 80 plus on a project basis if there's a number of roles, but 100 to 250, 300.And you're taking 20%?
So you're getting paid well, like you say, why change it?
Because it's all on you. everything's on you in terms of, where does it end, Sean?I'm not building tangible value.I'm not sharing the love.I'm not sharing my knowledge and my experience.I'm just a really bloody well-paid recruiter.
When you break it down.I'm running a business and all that goes with it, but I'm just a really well-paid recruiter.And I've got so much more to offer than that.So I looked at, I took four months off.Well, a bit more than that, actually.
This was last summer with the kids, wasn't it?
Last summer, and I remember reaching out. So I thought to myself, do you know what?
The first time we spoke, you were like, I've spoken to you about a month's time off with the kids now, and I was like, I think it was Euros, I don't know what it was, there was something on about cricket or something, and I was thinking, he must love his sport, I was thinking, but then when we spoke, I was like, no, he just genuinely needed a break.
Yeah, it was the July and I said, you know what?I need to do something.I need a break.We've got the money.I said to Lucy, this is the first time in my 20 years that I can take a conscious decision to take a break.
What about work that would come in?
tired of when I wasn't working for four months.You said I'm having a break.I'm having a break.Is that all right?And they said, yeah, we'll contact you if something comes in.But I said that I'm having a break.
One of my clients... Per recruitment, you can do that as well.
Yeah, you can.You haven't got any like... It was fine.
And I had built up enough goodwill to realise that I was secure in my client base.You might miss a role or two, but that's fine.When you're ready to come back on, you come back on and switch it on again.
But then whether I wanted to switch on in that way, I didn't know. And that was the conversation we had.I went and got therapy.The reason you came into it is because I started getting therapy.ACT therapy, acceptance therapy, which is brilliant.
It's like a different form of NLP for people like me who are all or nothing and need some love.It was brilliant and it really helped me to rationalize.I used to do a lot of future planning.I was controlled by the future.
So trying to work out and control and make things, it's impossible.You can't do that.So you're never really in the present.
You're never in the moment.No, that's really.
And what acted was just really grounded me.And it stopped me in thinking, what do I actually want here?Right, we got financially, we're okay.So I wanted to enjoy what I do.And I thought, do I just leave recruitment altogether?
Do I just start something new?I've got my runway.I can take a long time to get good at it.But if it's what I enjoy, I enjoy. But you know what, before I do that, let me try and, is it the recruitment I'm doing that I don't like?
Is it the way I'm doing it I don't like?So let's flip that on its head, right?I've never put myself out on LinkedIn.I've never done any personal branding.I've never niched out.You've never met any other recruiters.
I've never met any other recruiters.
I've never really met any other founders.So I only know one sliver of recruitment. My counselor was like, look, if you're going to go out and put yourself out there, that for you is massive because it goes against everything.
You know, the thought of being called out on something or negative vibes or whatever freaked me the hell out.I just didn't think I'd be able to cope with it.
She said, that will be the best thing for you because you will realize you either got to deal with it or you won't.And when you do, you realize it isn't as bad as you think it's going to be. So, that's when I started contacting people like you.
But my goal with Hoxo was never, I want to come to you and make a fortune.It was, I want to transform what I'm doing, and I need help to do that.
I want to work in niche that I'm really happy in and enjoyable, and I want to make the next 10 years of my career in recruitment enjoyable. So how am I going to do that?And that was the bit I had absolutely no clue.
And I remember the conversation.And look, it's a little bit like what we're doing right now.I've run this podcast since, if people have listened to The Rag for long enough, pre-pandemic was like this.It was in London.
It wasn't as well set up as this, I don't think.Credit to the guys who are production team.But I remember we got, we went into the pandemic.We got all our shit stolen. And I just literally bought a microphone and went remote, right?
And I've been doing that ever since.And the show's climbed, and we've got listeners.And so I sat down about a month ago.I took a break this summer for the first time.I've done 50 episodes in season seven, and I'm like, I've had enough.
I was fatigued with it, and I wasn't excited by it.And I sat down in this hotel where we are today with Lauren and my team, and we were like, I don't want to do it that way.
I don't even think, this isn't going to make commercially, it's going to cost me more money to produce it this way.It might not make me any more money, I don't know, but by God I'm excited by it.
I want to meet people again, I want to sit with my clients and sit with people I don't know, I want to listen to amazing stories, I want to take them out the next morning, put them in a hotel and create an experience and there's literally
It's just a thing that got me excited.
But that's in your gift to do it, right?Yeah.But then commercially, people would say you shouldn't be doing it that way.But I don't care.
But it's your choice.I mean, obviously, when you're in a position of... I'm in a position of choice.I wasn't... Look, when I first started this off, I spent three and a half grand and built a studio in this warehouse I was working in and got going.
I put everything I had into it.But now, yeah, like, and I think when I spoke to you, obviously, it was before I came to this conclusion, but
I could just sense that, yeah, you're in a good position, financially set, you've got a great family, you know what you want in life, but you'd lost that spark.You'd lost the fire.And what's the fucking point?
There is no point, and that's what I mean.I looked at it and thought, can I do this for another five, 10 years?Can I?I'm 44.I train every day, I eat well, I don't really drink, and so I shouldn't be feeling like this.It's all in there.It's mental.
And so I set you a challenge.I remember talking to you, and you invited me into the boardroom, which at the time I was like, well, what are you doing that for?I've not even got a niche, mate, and I'm a part of it.
But I think you could see some- I knew there was something big for you, yeah.Yeah, and you could see there was something more in there, which was great for my imposter syndrome, by the way, surrounded by all these people.
The challenge I set was, I need you to help me to niche down.And we looked at various different avenues and different ways to do it.And we'd settled on, right, let's look at growing out the Finsex place and how we do it.
And I remember we had a meeting, and you looked, and I was going through the motion, and your words were, you don't want to do this, do you?
I could see your eyes were glazing.Not really.You were saying the right things.
I can do it.Yeah, you could do it.I can, and I'd make it work. it's not floating me boat, it's not setting me passion on fire.So we then had different conversations, tried different things in different avenues.
And I thought, right, fusion is too valuable.I can't just let that go, right?And I've loved my clients, I've got a longstanding relationship, there's so much potential with that.But how I grow that, I'm not quite sure yet.
Let's park that for now, that's just gonna run as B&U.And we set about talking about what is now beyond the founder.
Well, we looked at the fact that every industry you'd recruit for was different.Every industry was, they weren't connected.
The only thing that connected them was that you knew someone who knew someone and you'd done a good job, and then you were able to fill it.And the bit that you wanted to find was an industry you could hang your hat on.
I remember we talked about FinTech.Didn't float your boat.We could have announced whatever we wanted, but for me, what kept coming back was you were loving the recruiters you were meeting.
You were in my boardroom, you're hanging around with all these people that you were learning from and you were networking with, By the way, I'm not just saying this, you were incredibly impressive as well.
People in our group have been like, he fucking knows his stuff.So you weren't coming in here as a shrinking violet, you were adding so much value straight away.
And I remember sitting down with you in a hotel in London, I went, I think you should serve this industry.Because you reminded me of me.I recruited into the insurance market, I was fucking good.
700 grand biller, there's nothing wrong with what I was doing.I was making a fortune, I would have done it, I'd have carried on doing it. but I didn't get excited by it.
And towards the end, when I knew I was launching a company, I was like, there's something missing here.And the second I had this brainwave of working with recruiters, I was like, I knew.
I was like, I'm gonna go and I could see internationally how I could help businesses that I understood.People that I'd sat next to, you know, I could visualize in seconds what they were saying and put, you know,
put solutions together, like when you were talking to me, I could just see it.And I'm not sure I could have that with other industries.And then we were like, you know, even though you've done it for yourself, you've spent 20 years doing this.
So much value in that.So much value.
And a lot of what I was doing is it's all been senior level critical hires.It's always people who are running their own business units and needing a senior leadership team to run that.It's SMEs who are high growth and putting that in place.
The only thing I had around the recruitment industry was I didn't want to be seen as a wreck to wreck or search to search.There's fantastic people in our industry that do that, right?That wasn't where I wanted to be.
So for me, I had to find a way and look at a way that would excite me, add real value, play to my strengths, and mean that I could add real value to the people I was working with.
And that's when we looked at the non-sales-related leadership team, senior hires, your MDs, your GMs, your finance, your HR, your marketing, your operations, your legal, all those senior board-level non-sales hires that our industry needs.
And for me, there's a change.The industry's changing, yet sales are the lifeblood of any business, right?But there's a realisation that you need to underpin that with an infrastructure. And the infrastructure needs to be really solid.
And if you haven't got those cornerstones, if you haven't got a solid financial footing, it's all about marketing and personal brand now.And that's often the first hire people are making, marketing.
If you haven't got your operations and your compliance and your legal nailed down, and your culture, your people, the DNA of a high growth business is typically the founder, right?And that will take you to a point.
But when you reach that point, you need a proper infrastructure underpinning it, because if you let a founder run off with it, they're going to go in the direction.
Well, look, the word and the name Beyond the Founder is perfect because it's taking the business beyond the founder, right?Exactly.And when it comes to, we talked about this, I think there's stages to it.
Based on my experience, all the companies I've recruited for, sorry, I've helped marketing and all the interviews I've done. There's two types of founders, really.There's the ones that get out of their own way, and there's the ones that don't.
And the ones that don't typically stay small. And they actually, again, if they're consciously doing it, like probably you have, and even me, and it's about making profit and a lifestyle, I think that's cool.There's no issue with that.
But the biggest issue in our industry is people wanna scale, they wanna grow, they wanna have headcount, they wanna have big multiple values, but they don't wanna change their behaviors to associate to it.
So they have the vision and the goals of being a 50 million pound business, but they act like a one million pound business. And usually, it's one person that unlocks the key.
And it's not someone who's gonna manage, like most founders are amazing at going out and winning relationships, but it's the delivery part that they don't like managing.
They don't wanna sit there and build a robust team of delivery consultants or whatever the model they go down.And we spoke about this, didn't we?It's like, because the vision idea came from,
One hire can allow a founder to be more free and you get like a managing director type person who's probably worked for a slightly bigger organization, has structure, has processes and sets your company up to go to the next phase.
Sometimes it's marketing, sometimes it's ops, sometimes they're a combination. You're now about to launch this.What's been the initial feedback you found from people?Fantastic.
Yeah, I mean, it's the typical feedback I get was, wow, this is needed.I mean, there is obviously people that will do it and do similar.That's great.But in terms of dedicated with the background and my experience, and I've been there.
Don't forget, you know, I understand.
what goes on in the founder's minds in terms of how do you scale, in terms of what do I need to do, in terms of what happens to me when I bring that person in and what does it need to look like, it's scary, it can be overwhelming, intimidating almost in terms of how you're going to do it.
And so the joy for me comes in looking and understanding and talking to people, understanding what they want, why, how, and giving them the advice needed to enable them to grow.And I've spoken to people, I've turned down work
because I've said, you don't need that person.What you actually need is this.And I don't do that, but there's great people that do.
But when you've got that person in place and you've got it to that size, then come back to me and what we'll do is we'll look at how we need to structure this to get you that leadership too.
And so it's, I love them conversations and that's a part of this.It's not, if I was all about the money, Sean, I'd just have done Fusion, right?I believe this is massively scalable if I want it to be.
But I also believe it's going to be really enjoyable. And it gets me going.I'm smiling and I love the conversations.
And when you're having conversations with people that you can relate to, that you understand, you understand what they're going through.I've done it for 20 years, right?A lot of these people are really early into their journey.
A lot of them just see the fact they've got to bring on four great recruiters to earn good money.But what do you do then?That doesn't work.
You need to have the right infrastructure, the plan, the strategy in place and the vision to be able to execute it.
And that's where... So what's, I guess, to wrap this up, what would be happening in someone listening now?What different things might they be experiencing which would mean they should probably reach out to someone like you?
Typical founder issues.So a lot of the time people go into this, they'll either be a really big biller who is wanting to go on their own, typically, and they feel they can do it better for themselves.
So they start that way, they have some clients, they have some work coming, and it self-perpetuates because they're them filling the work, they're the relationship man, they're the biller.
It's that peaks and troughs piece where you become sales and delivery.It's very, very difficult to achieve, so you get to that ceiling where it's all about your time. So these people will typically be doing really well in terms of billings.
They might have a small team around them that have gone through that pain of outsourcing and they'll want to execute to get to the next level.They will want to now take it to a serious business where they're willing to invest in non-sales roles.
They understand the value in investing in strategic hires because revenue is not the only way you grow.You need the strategy, you need the ideas, you need the people around you to be able to implement it and execute it.
So these people will be at that point where yes they're bidding, yes they've got clients, yes they're growing out a great sales team but they now need the back office infrastructure to enable them to truly scale.
So is there a size based business that you would look at or is there something that means that yeah you should probably talk, like if someone's on their own you know, a billion, a hundred K a year, probably not going to be at the right level.
So what would you think is the minimum entry point to start talking to people?
Typically the transition from 10 to 20 people is one, but it's just a little bit post that when you've got 20 people, so you don't want to outsource your finance anymore.You don't want to outsource your marketing anymore.
You need these key cornerstones in your business in the house.
We've been through that.I've been from up to 40 and I'm actually back down to 14 now.We've got everything in-house.I don't want to scale my heads.I want to scale my revenue with a rock-solid foundation with a few heads.
I've got a completely different model and mindset. What I've learned this year is that my life is miles better with the right people around me.
Like now, I'm sat here with you, I'm gonna spend all day doing this today, without the thought of, I should be on the phone or I should be selling, because I've got people doing all the right things.
And I'm able to do the bits that get me excited, which actually add the most value to the business based on my skills and strengths.And other people are then stepping up, they're growing their careers, it's becoming, It's becoming more fun.
I could probably strip more revenue out of it or cash out of it in other ways, but like I've got a couple of hires that some people would say, you could probably amalgamate that role and save that salary, but I'm like, but it's better.
Yeah, it's the key strategic hire, isn't it?It's whatever that might be for that business, be it an MD, be it a marketing director, it might be an FD.
It's finding that key that unlocks the door to enable the founder to then go and do what they really want to do.They don't want to be filling roles forever.
They want to be going and strategically growing their business, being typically marketing themselves or building a brand or however they want to do it.But you need the right people in post.And it might just be one key hire.
It might be two or three they need over a period of time.But what I will do is work with them to understand what that looks like and then deliver it for them.
So they're able to go and move on to the next phase of their evolution and grow the business and enjoy what they want and reap the benefit of doing that.
Yeah, amazing.Paul, what I want to end every episode with this season is a question from a previous guest or a listener.
So I've gone out and I've asked loads of people questions and I've got a load of random ones, but the question I've picked for you, I've written it down. And it is random, right?The person who wrote this did not know it was gonna be you.
So the question is, what habit or routine have you instilled in your leadership founder journey that you think has had the most impact to your success?So what one thing have you been doing consistently to contribute to success, would you say?
Oh, that's a really good question.
It's all about, I have a consistent process that I follow for every hire I make.So every role you work.Every role.And recruitment's a process.People overcomplicate it.But if you look at it in its purest form, it's a process.
And if you follow that process and execute it exceptionally well and don't deviate from that.And that process will change from people to people. But if you are very consistent in your approach, and you follow that process, your results will be there.
And it can be hard, and it can be boring, and it can be a ball lake.But follow the steps.Don't miss anything.There's no shortcuts.You've got to execute and you've got to deliver.
And when you follow that, you'll find at 95, 96% of the time, it will work out.
And actually, we're an industry full of mavericks.And a lot of founders don't follow any process.
Very hard to do.It's what keeps you there.But it also reins you back in when you want to become a bit of a maverick.And it keeps you focused and grounded on what you're actually here to do.
And you've probably seen times where you've made mistakes and you've thought, I've cut a corner.
I've cut a corner somewhere.And you kick yourself and say, why did I do that? So follow your process, define it, and execute every single time.Amazing.
So my final question for you is, where do you see Beyond the Founder?Where is it going?
Mate, you know what?For me, it's so exciting in terms of I will nail down the recruiting industry.Absolutely.And that's global.I'm already hiring a marketing person.I'm my own marketing person.
We're in the process of recruiting a recruiter for Fusion Search as well.Start taking the day off.
because you're still going to get work from that.
Yeah, and I have a small team running Fusion.
What I love about Fusion is you've built that without all this, so as long as whoever you bring in does a good job, which is ultimately on you, that should be self-fulfilling, it should keep coming back.
And now I'm actually stepping, now I'm doing, I've worked out Beyond the Founder, I can see how I need to do that.
So I can take on two or three people to look at the different areas we recruit and help them to grow and establish and ultimately take it over maybe.Beyond the Founder has got so much potential, Sean.
I mean, I could go into whatever industry, high growth SMEs, senior board level highs.It's what I've done forever.
already off different industries, will you do that for us?And I'm like, not at the moment, but just give me time.I want to, I'm passionate about recruitment industry.I want to absolutely now, I want to be the go-to person for board level.
But how does it, how is it different from Fusion if you go outside of this industry?
I won't go outside this industry.I'm passionate about it.It can do, it can scale.
But isn't Fusion beyond the founder now? If it's senior level roles, isn't it a bit like that, but just agnostic?
No, no, it's high growth SMEs, board level hires.The key cornerstone of enabling them to scale.And so, maybe I won't, but I can.I can.For me, I'm passionate about the recruitment industry.
But what I'm saying is, how is Fusion different to Beyond the Founder if it went out into FinTech?What's the difference there?Is Fusion just a, you'll fill anything, basically, that you're given?
No, no, Fusion will be focusing on HR, change and transfer, delivery, project program and risk and compliance.So I can have them three pillars is I can rather than go out to anything I need to niche it down for whatever comes in.
So I focused on them three pillars and it'd be primarily into FinTech, high growth, SMEs are corporate, whereas Beyond the Founder is focusing on high-growth SMEs effectively, businesses that are ambitious.
It's that pure top-level leadership team, those pillars.Yeah, those pillars.
It's the pure top-level leadership team, people that come in, key strategic hires that will enable the founder to do what they need to do.
Paul, thanks so much.Hope you enjoyed it.You know what, I'm so excited.Obviously I'm a part of this.I've been behind it with you and designing it.But I wouldn't be putting you here now if I didn't believe in it.
And I know you're the right person for this.I can't wait to see it.I hope people reach out and have conversations off the back of this.And we'll get you on again in the future.It's just amazing to see your energy 12 months long.
we've not even done it yet, it's just starting now.So the energy has been built, we're gonna get you back on in a year or so and see where you are and hopefully you'll still be smiling.
It's a passion project, it's done, it's not out of necessity, I'm doing it because I want to do it and I believe in it and I know it will be exceptionally successful.So yeah, thank you very much for having me, it's been a pleasure.
And we'll have you on in the future.100%, good luck, cheers mate.
Thank you as always for listening to today's show.I truly hope that you got value from it.
Honestly, it's the only reason I take time every week to ensure that my audience, you guys, future and existing recruitment owners, you're learning from each other to make this industry that I love so much stronger.
And today's episode is brought to you by my business, Hoxho.I'm the CEO and founder, and we're on a mission to help brand recruitment agencies and their people better.
I want to help people have the tools to stand out in the most competitive markets in the world.So I'll see you again next week with another episode.Catch you soon.
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