Welcome to the RAG podcast, the weekly show where I interview recruitment owners who are prepared to tell their unique story of growth.This is all in aid of helping future and existing recruitment businesses who are looking to do similar things.
Now, growth means different things to different people.So by tuning in every week, you're no doubt gonna find information that's relevant to you.
On the first episode of the new season, I've brought back one of, if not the most talked about guests I've ever had, Tom Glanfield.
Tom, the founder of LHI Group, Lawrence Harvey was the original brand, was on the show in early 2020 where he told the story of his growth and how he was looking to exit in the future.Since then, Tom has successfully exited the business.
He got an eight times multiplier on a huge EBITDA of over 10 million, so you can imagine how big the exit was.And in this episode, we talk about his life.What was it like exiting a business for such a huge amount of money?
What has he done with the money? How does he now spend his time?What has he enjoyed?What hasn't he enjoyed?
We talk about his approach to living healthfully, his balance with enjoying life, his approach to being a father, and the things he's missed out on while he was building the business, but now how he's dedicated and he's not gonna do it again.
And we give some words of wisdom to you, founders of current and future recruitment companies.Tom is charismatic, he's interesting, he's living the life that so many of us work so hard to get.So, I hope you enjoy this.
I hope you feel inspired and entertained at the same time.Without further ado, Tom, welcome back to the WRAG Podcast.Hey Sean, good to be back.
I know, I haven't seen you since the last one.I know, I think it's about the fourth time I've actually been north of London as well.
Yeah, I actually panicked on the way here because Lowen said, how far away is it?80 minutes because I'm looking at waves and I had that slight panic where you just type so into your sound out.Don't actually look where it is in the map, just go.
I could actually be like 10 miles in one direction.No, like 10 hours in one direction.
Well, thanks for coming to Sheffield and you know, this season is all about.This is the first episode of the season.Since I recorded with you in 2019, so a bit of what happened to us is, I think you were like one of the last 10 episodes I did.
Sorry, 2020.January 2020, I think it was. That was when the pandemic hit and then we basically, our office in London was broken into, our kit is stolen.
Off the back of the pandemic, everyone shut their offices and people went out and started stealing shit.So they stole all of our equipment.
I just went remote with it because I was at home and then I've literally never gone back to recording face-to-face since.So this is the first day, first episode, and you're the guy I wanted to get back.In a random hotel in, where are we, Sheffield?
This is my town, mate.He's literally just been in the car.
Like, nah, just take it.Well, look, mate, I'm pleased you made it.It's a good t-shirt.I like the hair look as well.Thanks, man.I had a flat cap on.
I'm thinking do I grow it back actually, but I don't know, I've had it for about five months, it's so aero down now.Yeah, yeah, keep it.
Because it's grey from behind, I think from the front because of the hairline, and these guys are watching me, the video guys, it looks quite a young, cool guy's cut, but from the back, I just look like an old man.
Yeah, no, it's a young grey, because you've got the hairline.Yeah, but you can't see that at the back, so sometimes I see photos at the back, I'm like, that's just an old, old shape of me.
I just keep mine long, because I'm just starting to get some recessed hair.No, no, no, no.
So, look, I'm pretty sure most people listening know who you are, but if they don't, just give us a quick, like, 30-second who-are-you, like, bird's-eye view of you and your story, and then we're going to go back and tell the story from our last interview.
Yeah, well, in a nutshell, I'm Tom Banfield.I started a company called Lawrence Harvey with a graduate loan when I was 23, 22, 23, I think.I grew it into a group of companies with no external funding, so purely organically grown.
to Lawrence Harvey, Harbour House, and Piper Maddox and Sideway under a group called LHR Group.Grew it to, I think, on sale, all the way through to sale, 450 staff, nine offices globally across America, Germany, and UK.
And then we went for a sale, actually, pretty well two or three years after we last met.So I think I was just stepping away from it at that point.And yeah, and now I'm a founder, I've stepped away from the business.
I do one day for a month doing a board meeting and catch ups.And that's about my involvement in that.
So going back to early 2020.Yeah.The reason I was so interested in bringing you in was because If you listen back to that episode, you know, you were pretty much about to step away.
I remember offline, you were like, yeah, I'm not doing that much anymore.And you were already talking about your Ironmans and your life outside of it.But then the next time that we spoke was I quickly phoned you like fucking second week of March.
It was like, mate, what's going on here?I was ringing everyone I knew and you were like, Sean, I can't really speak because I'm back on the tools, like fixing shit.And we didn't even have laptops for everyone.
So the COVID actually, I've got the sense, pulled you back into a role or a business that you were mentally checking out of.So can you take us back to that time that you can remember?
Yeah, kind of and not.So just when I saw you, COVID was literally, in fact, I think I actually remember, because when you interviewed me, I was just coming back from a holiday from, I think, the Canary Islands.And I'd first started seeing people
Yeah, you mentioned it.Yeah, with face masks on the plane.It's a bit like World War Z and first seeing a zombie running around the back.I think, what's that?But it was just starting to kick off.
And so we didn't really know, obviously, the scale of what was about to happen.And I just really stepped away.I promoted Jim at that time.I think I just promoted him to CEO.And I stepped away as founder.
I think COVID happened and I think we all kind of panicked a bit in terms of like, yeah, what's going on here?
And I felt like I was kind of going back in, but in a kind of way, I was the one that actually kind of stopped myself and let Jim, I mean, it's his time to actually really shine as a CEO is like one of our biggest challenges.
I didn't want to take anything away from him, like try and overrule him in any decisions.And Jim made some fantastic decisions over COVID.We, as a company, we were one of the few companies that didn't lose any staff, didn't let go of anyone.
We retained the whole workforce, basically.And even bonuses, instead of cutting salaries or cutting bonuses, we held them back to help cash flow, but we kind of like,
It's like Dumb and Dumber giving all an IOU saying we will pay these back as we grow again after this pandemic's gone through.
So anything that we held back I think is about 30% of bonuses to then repay them back on top of bonuses that they got to make sure they never lost a penny over that period.And I think that's where, as a business, It was a really good decision.
We got a lot of staff loyalty and trust on the back, which we already had abundance of anyway, I think.I think Jim handled it fantastically and the whole board.
What about for you though? There was an exit plan, revenue number, everything's probably on track.It turned out, I imagine, because of the hockey stick, it probably turned out quite good for you.
We had a real plan as we were heading towards an event on the kind of eBit numbers we wanted to hit.We were targeting at 5-6 million eBits. and it took a dip during COVID.
But we knew that if we maintain the GP and the headcount that it would just be a dip with a bigger hockey stick.Yeah, it was a mega hockey stick, wasn't it?So yeah, and then like I say, I think we were one of the few firms that
I mean, I think every firm jumped up after COVID, but then what happened is the firms that let go of a lot of their staff couldn't cope with the... As you know, it's difficult to find good recruits.
It takes a long time to nurture people, find them, and we had everyone just ready to go, and then we could grow even further. So, we actually went from a set of 3 million eBay just during COVID to 10 million just after COVID.
And that's where I did the event.
How did you feel, though, personally sat there, like I say, mentally checking out, now you've seen, did you fear that perhaps all the work that you've done was about to come crashing down?
I think there was that slight fear.I've always been a very positive thinker, and I always believe it's going to be a dip.We're going to come through it.You've just got to hold your nerve.
And yeah, even I was nervous of it, because when you're coming so close to an event, you're like, oh my god, like I don't want to just deread it right now, all that work, and not just let go of the reins as well.
I think in emails to me before this podcast, you asked about your values and the business and things like that.And I think one of the biggest things that we've done at LHI is a real sense of trust in the team.
And even in a situation like that, I've put Jim in charge. And I've got to trust him.If I interfere too much or take power away from him, that's going to create distrust and that's going to cascade down the business.
So I really trusted my indecision and identified him as the best person to take over.Now he's going to make the best decision. But yeah, but then it's all come good and yeah, we did the event.
So you did the event at a 10 million EBIT rather than a 40 million EBIT.Yeah, 10 million EBIT.
So that for you meant much bigger.
Yeah, it was a big number.We did an employee ownership trust, which not many have done in the industry, which is a fantastically tax efficient way of doing it.And I'd actually given out 50% of the business to staff.
And it was kind of a weird day, because I think when I got that first lump sum in the bank, I think in your head, you're always thinking, this is going to be one of the best days of my life.I always want to know, yeah, what's it actually like?
I mean, it's more of a relief that the money's gone there. But this is going to sound so cheesy, and everyone's going to listen to this and roll their eyes going, oh my God, you're just saying this for votes, blah, blah, blah.
But the best feeling, without doubt, was all the messages I got from staff.Yeah.And I also got loads saved in my phone, all in a little folder, and photos of them all. This money has changed my life.
I got divorced and this has allowed me to get my, you know, thank you so much.And like, thank you for what you've done and thanks for your generosity and giving me equity.All these amazing team messages.As a business, like we all did it as a team.
And I think, yeah, I gave out 50% of the business. We got an 8 plus multiple on sale and so everyone got a significant amount of money.How does a trust work?Because isn't that a different way of it?
So that's selling to a trust which is effectively based in Jersey and then it becomes owned by the staff. Effectively, I sold the business to the staff.We all retained 10% in the company.
And our money is, we got a third up front, lent the rest back as loan notes, and then that gets paid out over time.So effectively, it's like an MBA, the company kind of bought it off me.But what I love about that is when I was looking at
selling, we're looking at private equity firms, we're looking at all different ways of selling and things like that.Even like potential floats in the future or whatever.But I've never come across the Employee Ownership Trust.
The more I looked into it, the more I liked it.Because, again, the trust thing, I didn't trust a private equity firm, particularly a firm and I've always being very protective of staff and had their backs and things like that.
I think priority funds tend to be numbers guys who just make cold, callous decisions.Whilst the staff effectively inheriting the business and getting a payout.Where does the money come from though?Effectively the bank.
So it's like re-mortgaging your property.So it's effectively HSBC funded it and we took the money, paid it out to me and staff and everyone and then used some for working capital.And how do you get an interest based on?
And on the loan notes, everyone got a really good interest base in that.So anything I haven't got yet, they're accruing interest in my company.So it's like having a big piggy bank as well.
But it's kind of like, I mean, I've got young kids, but I haven't even graduated yet.And hopefully, I get to university.But hopefully, yeah, they get to that
It's like the feeling I would imagine as seeing your kids graduate from university and then get a trust fund at the end of it.And yeah, without sounding arrogant in any way, it all kind of went exactly as planned, perfectly.
When I spoke to you last, it was that perfect time where I was stepping away, but that was all part of the plan to demonstrate the company's running without me.Yeah, to get the value.
To get the value, but also for the staff to believe they can run it without me.And it turns out that the team did a really good job.
Recently, I think I've spoken to a lot of firms since those couple of years after COVID, and it has been a tough couple of years in the industry.But we're still looking to growing by about 30% in EBIT since that sale.
So yeah, we're still kind of trending up towards 30 million EBIT.So as a business, I think, you know, we've always outperformed the market, been strong and steady.We've got a really good workforce.We're multi-branded, multinational.
And yeah, she's got a great team.
So you've got the loan notes paying you back now.So it's almost like a salary from that.Yeah.You loaned some, you get the loan notes and then you've still got equity as well as accrual.Yeah.It's just an amazing deal really, isn't it?Yeah.
Even though you've got the money, you've also got income.Yeah.
And it feels like a family, the business. We're still very well-connected.People did different things with their money, like bought boats or houses or whatever, and we're still visiting each other.
I'm going to a wedding next year for my American MD next year, and I've been to weddings of all my directors.Yeah, it's great.It's a great feeling.When I hopefully get married again one day, they'll be there too.
What has gone on then?I know you've step back and you, like I say, do one day a month.So yeah. What's driving you to get up in the morning?I see your Instagram, right?It looks so action-packed.I got a vibe of it.
I know you've always had good cash and you've been doing fun things.In fact, let me rephrase the question to be clearer.Has selling the business actually made a big difference?Because you already look like living a bit of a dream.
You're already flying around, doing Ironmans, going to festivals.Has it made any difference?
It's a very good question.I'm going to say a few things which go against the grey.Sure.Cool.Always welcome.Just to start off with, when I started the business, I've always loved life.
I've got quite a keen sense of adventure, like new things, pushing boundaries a bit and having freedom to be creative. But I come from a family where my parents went to private school.
I've got a lot of friends who went to private school and their kids all go to private schools.But my parents went down the route of, my dad's a social worker, my mom's a nurse.They didn't have much cash themselves.
I didn't go to private school myself. When I left school, I got given a thousand pounds and that was it.I said, go out to the wild and do your thing.So I didn't have a kind of family nest egg that I was going to fall back on.
But yeah, all my friends who I hung out with my parents side were kind of skiing and sailing and doing these different things, which I really wanted to do.And it quickly dawned on me that
I'm only going to be able to get that one day by making it myself.I have to make it happen.And there's almost a fear of failure as well.So yeah, it's probably driving me to then open my own thing and take a risk.
So when I opened LHI, it quickly dawned on me that in recruitment, you've got two modes You've got two ways of going.You can be a lone recruiter where you can make good money, probably not much different if you are working in a business.
But you've got good money, you can be in charge of your own time and what you do and have some great flexibility.But it's quite a lonely existence.You don't really have a lot of stress.
Yeah, I've got friends who have done that and they've been loan recruiters for several years and they kind of laughed at me when I started at Ajax.
I had all the stress of managing and taking on staff and taking officers and debt and everything that goes with scaling a business. But you can't really go on holiday and relax.You're always on.
If you get ill or get an injury, there's no one to cover you.Without sounding too old, there's no kind of future retirement plan.You can't really sell a business.So it's just you.So you've got that option.Or the other option is to scale.
And if you're going to scale the business, take a big deep breath and go for it.It's going to be full on.And I love life, but I made a mental decision that I'm going to be, if I'm scaling this, I'm going to be full tilt for the next 10 years or so.
And I was for 15 years.Well, I didn't do everything you said.I didn't do IMS, I didn't do triathlons, I didn't do any exercise.I had very little work-life balance.And people say to me about work-life balance.
And I see some firms where someone runs a firm and they have that work-life balance. But it's quite hard to really excel and grow something in such a competitive field if you're not full tilt.
But you can't be, when I say full tilt, this is a podcast of the young Marines, the Marines say, you have three modes, either flat-footed, on your heels, or on your toes, full tilt.And I'm like,
If I'm going to be full tilt, which is full on in the business, live and breathe it day in, day out, seven days a week, getting up at 5am, getting back at 10pm every day, I need an end goal.So don't burn out over that time.
And my end goal was to grow a an awesome business, see people flourish and then to eventually sell.I think my definite success and recruitment in a business is
If you sell, you've proven you've got a business that you've grown, you've created something that's now running without you and someone else wants to buy it, which is my definition of a successful business.
I think it's very hard to be, I don't want to be that guy that I had a terrific work-life balance.I wasn't that inspired.It's quite hard to retain staff and expand.
You queue that game until you're like 60 maybe, and then you sell for some small amount.I was like, I'm going to get it full on as hard as I can. for the next 10 years and hit this goal.
And then when I start flagging, I'm going to give my Olympic torch to the next runner, which is Jim.He can then take it on.And it was definitely towards, yeah.
The sacrifices to that, isn't it?I mean, like you say, you're not exercising.Yeah.You're not seeing your family enough.Yeah.We talked about in the last episode, like, you know, there's a sacrifice to that relationship.
Yeah.So, yeah, along that way, I got divorced. health pre did start taking a decline at some point where I think it was one point I had eight officers all reporting to me.I was fully stretched trying to get to each office all the time.
I think, yeah, I'm on my way. I remember one week I did summer conferences and I used to, it was more cost efficient for me to go to each office in the summer instead of getting all the offices together.
So just my cost is much better than just doing those one flights.So I think it was a Wednesday, I went to the UK office, London office, did a presentation there. Went out with the London team until midnight or whatever the next day.
Woke up early, hungover, flew to Germany, Munich.Did the whole presentation again.Went out with the German office until midnight again.I think even Chris, my German director at the time said, I've got us a table booked at Basia.
Yeah, I'm like, oh my God.I heard that.Right now it's like 2 or 3 AM. got up again at 6am to go to Paris on Friday, did the presentation again, went out of the Paris office, like wake up again Saturday morning.
By this time, I'm just like... You're giving everyone the same effort.Yeah, yeah.But I'm like absolutely spent.I think there's only a limited time you can kind of do that.
And then I did obviously start once a week to get bigger cash reserves, put in place senior management teams and stuff like that. But yeah, and then so then I got to the position where I could then step away and people said...
Is it difficult stepping away, you know, in terms of like, you go from that to, for me, without sounding like a massive cliche, it is a massive cliche.I'm all or nothing.I'm either fully in or fully out.Like, I can't do an in-between.
And I do think an in-between is good because you're doing an in-between, you're not really trusting someone to run it for you.So for me, it was like fully getting out and then stepping away and then,
Like I do with anything in life, I'm probably a bit full-tilt now into life with my kids.I've got big projects in sandbanks.
Seems to be getting... Didn't you buy the most expensive house in the world?
I mean, I saw the sunset.I am actually, yeah, I'm actually in lab bylaws buying the most expensive house in the world, which is clearly a mistake.But I bought Again, what the Sun Clangor's bungalow actually does have a top floor.
But I bought an amazing plot in Sandbanks.It was a lot of money, but it's got so much potential.It's a massive project.Per square meter, most expensive.
Yeah, something like that, I think is the most, past Grammys, the most expensive house in the world.And you're going to revamp it.Probably means I got conned.Yeah, I've been there.But yeah, so at the moment I'm looking to redevelop it.
It's a big project of mine.So it's something that I can get my teeth into, you know, and gives a bit of purpose kind of doing that.I bought a place in the Alps. And yeah, I've done a couple of business investments.
And yeah, and now I'm just enjoying doing challenges.I've done a lot of charity work.It's good to give back a bit.I spend a lot of time with my kids.So I take them to the lifeguarding and rugby and school and... So how do you set your week up then?
Give us an example of what a normal week would look like. A normal week.Maybe there isn't such thing.Let's say you're at home in the UK.Yeah.What's a week like?
Well, I tend to make up for the fitness I lost, I guess, when I was running a company.So, I am quite into fitness.I'll do probably like an hour and a half fitness every day.So, I'll plan out into the day.
But generally, every other weekend, I've got my kids. Tuesday nights, Wednesday nights, got the kids.So I'm taking them to school.
At 12 in the morning.Yeah.So, I mean, by the time I've actually taken them to school, got back, and then gone to pick them up again.Yeah, there's a time.Almost like a single dad mode in that respect.Then got the hour and a half exercise in.
I'm doing some consulting work to three different clients.So quite enjoying that.And I'm quite often on the phone to them.I probably get overly involved with that.
Sandbanks is just constant back and forth for the council planners, architects, stuff like that.It's a proper job, managing this development?Yes, all the time.I've got a place in the house, so working on that.You're building that as well?
No, I've done some bits to it, but even then, it's just maintaining it all is a full-time job in itself.Do you not pay people to manage it?I do a bit. end up being involved.I have a new partner, girlfriend, so you're getting time with her.
And yeah, just enjoying life.
It's crazy.It's not many people can do this in their 40s, right?It's normally the later.And I did a post last week about longevity.Yeah.So I'm approaching 40, 38.And I don't think I've ever really thought about longevity.
It never really went into my mind.It was like, just get on with what I'm doing.I stopped drinking in December last year.I didn't have a big relationship with it.It wasn't like I was out drinking every week.I just thought my life was pretty good.
What's it going to be like without that one thing that pisses me off?My headaches, my hangovers, my mood.I'll just get rid of it and see how I feel.It wasn't an intention to quit forever.I still don't have a will, but one month was pretty cool.
Then I just carried on.I've absolutely loved this year.It's amazing. Both alive. I don't know if it's approaching 40 or what, but it's becoming something I'm really passionate about.Yeah.
Thinking how can I feel better, look better, but also carry on for longer.
Yeah.So, on the longevity, I also am very much into that as well.I mean, I love life and probably like you, I want to stay as fit and healthy as long as possible.It's not like,
you know if you're going to live to say you're going to live to 150 it's not like being It's not being decrepit for the next 70 years of life, but it's like hopefully extending your 40s to your 60s, your 50s to your 70s and so forth.
So I study a guy called David Sinclair.He's like Harper's expert in longevity.So I follow his supplements, I do a monthly IV drip on that subject as well.What does that do? I'm not sure if it does anything.
It's an NAD, which is a supplement described by Davis and Clare, which is supposed to, again, reduce ageing, like slow it down effectively.The trouble is, it's one of those things you can't measure.So I didn't know it was making a difference.
It costs a lot of money and I get a needle for my arm each month, which is not great. Do you feel good though?Do you feel any different than you did?I feel good.I feel great.
Like I say, I would hate to be that guy who's still doing a 9 to 5 job but squeezing in an hour or two of yeah, of life balance.
For me, it was all about hit work as hard as you can, get out, you know, create something amazing, which we have in the team are amazing.They're going to do amazing things.
And, you know, Jim, we've got real succession, I guess now again, and that mentality of succession.Yeah.With Jim now, you know, you start to think about the next CEO after him and that next CEO could be,
in a couple of years time running a thousand people company, billion or billion top turnover business.So we all kind of feel like you've created this animal that's now... And you can live your life how you want to live it.
Yeah, I'm saying like a, yeah, I feel like I'm saying like a toasted ballet answer.No, you're not.
Everything's great.This is your life, right?And this is what I think I've seen from the outside on your Insta and I'm like, is it as good as it looks?
Like, I guess it's not bad.I mean, it's taken a lot of work and even my ex-wife is an amazing person.You know, obviously getting divorced, people always end up falling out and but we're always their best friends now and yeah it's taken a lot of work.
You've got kids though right?We've got kids.That's the key.If you didn't have kids you wouldn't need to be. Even when I was single, I used to go around and sit there with her and her husband, hung over, saying about the date I'd just been on.
And it was like my mom and dad.They came out with their son for Christmas for me and the kids last year in the Alps.Wow.So I think for me, I think the biggest thing for me has always been about harmonious relationships.I really kind of push that.
Don't bridge it.And again, without sounding completely cliche, it's not it's not just the money.The money enables you to have a life and it's worth working for.But if you can have enough money, it allows you to be generous to other people, give away.
I think a lot of happiness comes from that.And when I sold, it helped out my family, gave them a lot of sums.And I felt really good and the staff pay out as well, obviously.But I'm also just doing a lot for charity now.
I do a lot for a charity called Julia's House and I'll do some more in the future as well.Along with challenges I enjoy doing, so I did Everest and the Alps as well.
It's learning new skills, so it's learning how to ski tour and then it was climbing the height of Everest in Verbier, so mountain huts, skiing down, climbing up until you've done Everest and the heights.It was about four or five days.
A really cool experience. I live with a couple of friends and things like that.I just would never have had time to do all the money.To be honest, until I sold, I was always pretty broke because everything I got just kept going back in.
I didn't think you can really scale a recruitment business where you're paying yourself a lot of money. and taking a piss and not leaving from the front.
Because as soon as you do that, everyone is going to look at you and think, either I don't want to work for this guy, or he's doing it for the top.Yeah, he's not being very inspiring.
We'll end up leaving potentially from doing the same thing or joining a competitor or whatever.I think it's got to be full sense all the time.And it's hard.But I think anyone who says,
Yeah, scaling a business with a work-life balance is really difficult.I think it's about making a decision.
My business now is just under 15 staff and I don't actually want it to be any bigger.I'm not interested.I think when I met you, I was really excited about growth.We got to like 40 people and I was like, It actually didn't serve the life I want.
So I've got, you know, I've got a wife, I've got a baby, I've got two stepkids.I've now relocated up here.I left London.My business is remote.
We're able to create a really well, very valuable business, but without, it doesn't need to be massive for me.But I've accepted that.
I think the challenge is when people think they still want the big growth, but they're not prepared to behave that way.I think it's about acceptance.
I think in recruitment, one of the biggest threats that we pay attention to is staff leaving and staying out of their own business.When we started, we had 450 staff.If 450 staff had all left and settled their own businesses,
that each business would be worth nothing, but collectively it's worth a lot.So the key to recruitment is holding it together.
And I always get, unlike your business here, your business is based a lot on connections and that's what you bring to the table. a staff member, if we can leave and just open a business in the competition, it wouldn't have your connections.
But in recruitment, people can start their own business quite relatively easily.It's always going to be difficult scaling it. So you've got to incentivise them enough to stick around.
I'm not that into football, but I look a lot at football teams and how they manage.It reminds me a lot of recruitment.The team I was always really inspired by was Alex Ferguson's Manchester United.
and he had a team that seemed to always be striving to get better and had that thirst for excellence and everyone wanted to be a part of it.
But as soon as you get a team that's kind of like taking their foot off the gas or going down, everyone starts jumping ship.So I always had that paranoia that everyone's going to jump ship.
So for me, I had this constant drive that I wanted to be pushing it forward.Do you think Ferrafelli was as big, if not bigger than the... Ambition.I think the failure was a part of it.
But a constant pressure on myself to make sure everyone's happy, everyone's got a clear career path.I'm creating opportunities for everyone.Because if I didn't create those opportunities, they would leave me.And that was your job.
And it's still very much a mentality in the company. To push people internally, to grow internally, we have more of a mentality of taking on our own talent and nurturing them and bringing them through.
I think too many companies always think, for some reason, external talent can be better than what they've got.So it's more about giving opportunities and the jobs to people within the company and pushing them through.
Looking at the clients you're working with and what's happened over the last couple of years, because you are right, the hockey stick was mental after the pandemic, but then the last 18 months to two years has not been.It's been very difficult.
Yeah, a lot of businesses have gone bust.A lot of businesses.The one thing I'm hearing the most is, LinkedIn licenses, when you're on the way up, are easy to acquire.They're not very easy to shed when you're on the way down.
So people are shedding headcount, still paying for licenses with bullhorns.And LinkedIn's the one where, like I know a client who went from 60 to 60 employees, and they're paying for 60 LinkedIn recruitment licenses.
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So I guess you're not necessarily investing in everyone's businesses, but you've got a few clients you've still got.What have you seen and what challenges have people faced that you've been dealing with?
I think challenges have always been the same.It's holding on to your top talent and recruiting good talent. Is it as bad as people think?I think everyone had it easy after Covid and I think as a result of a good market it can create bad habits.
So I think sometimes it's just going back to basics in terms of I've never really been in a situation where we've gone significantly back in headcount.I've always had this mentality of one person needs to try to replace them with two people.
So you're always pushing it forward.So I can't really advise or know of the stories here on LinkedIn.And that does sound like a nightmare.But I remember always thinking we're getting to a big office.
A big fear of mine is if we shrink, then say the costs per head are going to go up and up and up.
And then as a result, it turns into a cyclical cycle because then you can't afford them to take on staff because your cost per head is going to be up so much.So for me, it's always about trying to maintain that headcount.
But working harder on your internal recruitment, replacing weaker performers, so keeping that pressure on their performance and their high-performing culture. And just knowing that, yeah, it's a big industry out there.
So there's still loads of business out there.It's about just stealing it off the competition and driving that mentality, that positive mentality and stuff.I think too many people start playing bad markets and... Government.Well, just anything, yeah.
there's always opportunity and there's always new markets as well.You're always pushing new markets and trying new markets and new territories.And we've got great growth by even during the last couple of years where people have shrunk.
We've opened a Berlin office, we've opened a Miami office, got some big growth out of that.So I think it's, I would say it's more mentality-based than anything else.
Moving into mentality then. your kids and as a father, I've been speaking a lot about this recently, being a stepdad of two kids at 11 and 9 and I've got a baby now. I mean, I'm nowhere near your age.Congratulations on the baby.Thank you, mate.
Yeah, but how old is her?She's a year old and two weeks.Amazing.I've just had the first weekend with her.So I spent the last three days, my wife is in Budapest and our girls do.Yeah.Daddy daycare on my own.I mean, I'm with her every day.
I live around the corner and I work at home most of the time.
So I'm always there, but my wife is very, she's an amazing woman who takes over and, you know, she's breastfeeding and she's just like, her friends call her like Mother Earth, like she's proper into it.
I didn't realize what I didn't do until this week.I haven't done any of these things, but I loved it.She's amazing.She's called Aries.She's a little girl.She's beautiful.Amazing.It's made me really think.
I know the background I had was from no, we didn't have any money.I don't even know where my drive came from, but I know it's always been to get away from previous experiences and to try and create something new.
And then now that I've got kids, I'm like, and again, I'm not at your level, but I am providing them a life where they've spent a month in Dubai this year.We've been to Greece, we've been to Peru, we've been to Miami.
We've been doing these cool things.I'm trying to take them on this journey with me.But I'm fearful that I'm going to create kids that are entitled, that are like soft and just think that things are easy.
Because I didn't get a plane until I was like 10 years old.My nine-year-old stepson's been on like 50 flights in the last three years.So I'm like, Because you now are providing a life that looks insane, right?
So how are you going to keep these kids grounded?And do you think about that?
Yeah, I do actually.It's a tough one. Because they've had a good life and then came to Costa Rica surfing.
Greece, windsurfing, 13, 11.So they're good ages because you can just do stuff.
And two lads who seem to like the similar sort of things that you like, right?
Yeah, re-skiing and channel time.So yeah, it does worry me slightly.But I think it's just that constant messaging to the kids that that how lucky they are to just give them basic controls, things like that.It's telling them constantly that.
you're not going to leave them anything that I can spend every pound that I've made.Have you read the book Diary of Zero?No, but I always believe if he dies the most girls wins.
I'm literally reading a book now called Diary of Zero and you should read it, it's incredible and it basically talks about that.I think inheritance, I'm not through the book yet but it implies that inheritance is kind of put to one side.
If you die and then just leave a load of money in your bank for people to take, you've basically just wasted life experience.Whereas, putting money away for people is a sensible move but that should be to one side.
So, you're letting them know that they're going to have to do it.Yeah.
So, I think it's like you've got this amazing life but you're going to have to pay for this yourself in the future if you want it and you have to work for it.And I totally believe that.I really don't think happiness comes from being given money.
It's about making it yourself.I agree.That's again cheesy.The reward is The reward wasn't so much getting the paycheck at the end of selling LHI, the reward was in the journey, the journey there.
It's the same, if you imagine the World Cup, if he kicked off the World Cup day one and gave England the World Cup without paying any team, it's like a bargain. Well, that was easy.Yeah, where was the memories?
The highs, the lows and everything it gave you.So I think I'm pushing them on that.One thing I've done with them a couple of times, I think this is a great thing and you're probably a way better fuzz than me trying to say you should do this.
Do you want me to start? I've taken quite a few times to car boot sales where we do a car boot sale.So we go, we take everything that we think about the house, we put it out.And they have to sell the stuff.
And then with the profit they make, let's say it's £5 each, you give them £5 and say, right, you got £5, no more.Go around and see what we can get and come back and show me.
And it's them going around and teaching them to barter with people and the value of money and stuff like that.I think that's been something that actually has a really cool effect on them.
Weirdly, I mean, the last time I did was a couple of years ago, so they were 11 and 9.They came back with two swords, like proper swords. What are we going to do with that?A. How do you get a sword with a fiver?B. Who the fuck sold you a sword?
But yeah, really cool skills I need to learn, like to study your money, business skills, like passwords and stuff like that.
Do they always say to you what they want to do?Like, do you identify any jobs?
No, not really.But my eldest, again, he seems to have, from that, he's got this kind of entrepreneurial side.When he's got this sword, again, I don't know whether to reprimand him or celebrate with that.
I picked him up from school and he'd just got a mobile phone.He'd just gone to senior school and just got a mobile phone, which I'm a bit against, but that's another subject.
And he said, Daddy, can we go to Winchester on Saturday because I'm meeting a guy who's going to buy the sword of me.And I was like, How the hell have you got this?What company?
He said, don't tell mummy, but a flyer came through her door for an antique dealer.So I took it and I took it into school.And at lunchtime, I phoned the antique dealer.I described the sword and I negotiated a thousand pounds for my sword.
That is brilliant, you've got to commend that.And like, A, you should never take anything from Mummy's house, I'm telling you.Don't be dishonest.But B, you should give me some structure.
But also part of me is like, proud, you know, like, at 11 years old, I would not have had the confidence to find someone and be bartering with that mother.And see, I'm like, mate, it's not worth £1,000.
So whatever this guy told you is complete, it's complete bullshit.So what happened?Did you go with it?I didn't.I didn't.I didn't actually take it.I said, like, yeah, we're not doing this.But maybe I should.
But yeah, so he seems to be intent to do that.
What's the, I guess I've got an 11-year-old and a nine-year-old, so what's that jump like, 12 and 13, what have you noticed changed?
I would just definitely say it's now wanting parties.I think about girls and, you know, becoming a bit less cuddly, a bit cooler, you know, so make girls look forward to.I actually showed him the Bible the other day.I showed him Van Wilder.
I was in Miami the other week and we were, the TV, I don't know, honestly the US is like going back in time I think, like you think about it, it's like this modern country but actually
fucking really dated in this hotel like Hilton and like doesn't got Netflix.I'm like, who doesn't got fucking Netflix?Airbnb in Peru had Netflix.Yeah.And like, you know, that hasn't even got a bloody running water tap.
And this one, anyway, so we go on like the US TV and they've got Deadpool and Wolverine, the new film.So the kids were like, can we watch it?And I was like, yeah.And then I put it on and within five minutes, I realized this is not a kid's film.
This is like an 18.And I was like, I was good.I actually wanted to watch it.I was like, I'm really looking forward to it.We've watched some films that are like borderline 15s and stuff.Have you seen Daddy's Home?Will Ferrell and Mark Wahlberg.
epic and it's like obviously because i'm the stepdad and they've got their dad's on the scene and we're like pretty close now me and the dad well um well both the cool dad like their dad the real dad and i'm the stepdad like will ferrell so uh we've worked out about 100 times it's very funny well i think we're going through a stage now where
Because when I met them, they were six and eight.They were babies.They wanted to do everything with us.And every night, they just wanted to be around.And it's quite overwhelming for me.
Because I've gone from when I spoke to you, I was married in London, got divorced, reconnected with an old flame.Within six months of properly dating her, I met these kids.
And I've gone from living in a flat in Manchester with my dog to living in Sheffield with two dogs, two kids.Amazing.It was unbelievable, but at the same time, overwhelming.
And I don't think I really appreciated how amazing two kids at that age were at the time.It was almost a bit like clingy.I didn't really know what to do.Yeah.Whereas, I can see it's changing now.Yeah.Oh, I can see so much.
But they're starting to not, like you say, they're starting to go to their rooms more and play on devices, computers.Well, I'm a little girl yesterday.My wife's in Budapest.My parents were around.I'm doing a barbecue because the weather's still nice.
And the kids were just like in their room, not bothered.Little girls running up and down on a little walker.And they're in their room and I was like, it gives you so much more depth.
It's a life, I think, having kids around and that family feel, you know, and I think, yeah, having a family is, yeah, it's amazing.And I highly recommend it to anyone.
Well, yeah, I mean, your life, I remember we spoke, was like, you said, I've got everything in some ways, but in other ways, I'm still single.It's like a crazy lifestyle.How do you feel about that relationship now?How do you feel about that balance?
I think at the time you said you're successful, I'm successful, I'm divorced and So arguably, I would say I was in that time.But I think since then, I kind of got life back on track.I feel successful in terms of I've got strong relationships now.
I've got an amazing partner.I'm excited to see where things go with her.And an amazing relationship with my ex-wife.Amazing relationship with kids.And I have more.And now, if I have more kids, I kind of feel like
I did have something to prove as well when I did the business, maybe there was an ego thing there as well, that I feel like I feel very comfortable wearing a skirt.
So I feel like I could be a stay-at-home dad, wear a pinnie, and cook pancakes for the kids every morning to take to school.And I'd be super happy just doing that.I don't think I can try to prove anything.
But that's because you've achieved what you've achieved, though, isn't it? Yeah, maybe, so maybe I say that with, yeah, if I hadn't achieved that, then I wouldn't be in this position.
I think by doing that, that has enabled me to be successful, feeling a lot more successful than when I last saw you.Yeah, I last saw you, I'd say I was running at a 5 out of 10 success, no, more like an 8 to 9.
But you showed that money wasn't the, money actually wasn't the whole piece.For some people, it is.But actually, when you unlock, what do people say, like, when people are dying, like,
They don't sit there and count their bank account or talk about their... Yeah, no, I know.
Steve Jobs always famously said it.It always came down to actually his health and relationships, which I think is totally true.
What I would say though is if you're an active person and you enjoy that, which I do, money does enable you to do the things you enjoy.And it also enables you to give back more, I think, which I think is... is a form of happiness, yeah.
Dopamine, yeah.We all do things that, yeah, the dopamine hit and that's been giving back as well.
We spoke before about, you literally barely slept last night.You were at Michael Jackson and you were in London and doing all these cool things.You were up in Sandbanks doing a run and then you came back.
For the record, I'm not really into theatre, but Michael Jackson musical.It's like getting a concert.I mean, it's bloody amazing.Yeah.
Well, the girl I used to work for me in recruitment, her son played the mini Michael.He's old now, but they actually replace it every year, don't they?
And he changes his colour and race after about eight, so you can't even keep the same kit.
But what my question was like, How are you managing that?Because I did get a sense that you were burning the candle at both ends even when we met last time.And you enjoyed that, but there's an element of fatigue with that.I still do.
I've always had high energy.I seem to be able to cope with a little sleep.And I am always ambitious in my time.So I tend to just naturally pack a lot in.Everyone always jokes that I'm always a little bit late.
You just made it within like two minutes.I had lunch. I'll be panically texting Ray and saying, you are coming?Yeah, I'll be there.But yeah, last night, I took my kids to the Michael Jackson musical.
I got home at 2 AM in the morning, but I'd arranged for the mates to go for a run at 7.I don't want to bail on him, because I was like, it's important to get the exercise in.
And I was thinking then, I've got to do that, and then go kind of straight up here, basically, to make this.So I do tend to pack it in. But I will give myself the other lion, and like I say, I'm very much into supplements.
Sleep is a big connector though, isn't it?
I've got what have you seen, the Whoop.I've got the Whoop.I've got it in January, I've got the Voodoo, I thought I'm going to get something else. And obviously, I've had my baby since October.
So, it's been tracking my sleep with a baby in the room every night.And actually, she's in the bed now.We've got sleep coach time with us on the end of the month.
She's been in the bed for the last... Since she grew out of her next to me crib, she's been right between us.And actually, elbows me in the head and head puts me in all sorts.It's crazy.
But I've not had really more than six hours sleep once this year.I've hit it twice.I've hit 100% sleep once in Peru when I went to bed at like 7 p.m.and 7 a.m.
I don't know, I think I'm used to it, but I'm also a bit fearful that sleep is one of them factors to longevity that is maybe the one I'm neglecting the most.Does that go through your mind?
I'm aware of it.And again, I've kind of, again, in my spare time, I just sort of hook up, you know, and sleep.And I do a lot of things now that help me.I've never been in great sleep, but I kind of tend to have an active mind.
I think, I tend to find when everything quietens down, my mind always gets more active.So I've always struggled to sleep.So I really worked at looking at how to get a good night's sleep, as stupid as it sounds.Because again,
time is precious and you can't get more time.So if you're trying to get more in a day, you just want better quality sleep.So having magnesium supplements, cold room, dimming all the lights down before you go to bed,
um uh getting off phones and things like that um and working your breathing as as you can get into bed um the massive advocate for all that for you it's the quality rather than the amount of time yeah yeah and then as soon as you wake up it's trying to get
natural light in the room as soon as possible.That kind of wakes you up.You're a fan of cold plungers?I am, I would say.So, I actually have a cold dip in my front.I've recently got it.
My wife got me one of them.Lubey.Yeah, 55 quid.But I've got one in the garden.I've been going in it.Not every day, but I've been trying.And there's one just down the road as a place where you can do sauna and cold therapy.Yeah.
And it's like two degrees, proper cold.
So, they do say, again, that's a huge thing for longevity.In fact, They say aging is the aggressive pursuits of comfort.
I've literally heard that.I was going to say it.I've heard that quote this week.
Yeah, I've heard the same guy.I think it's Gary Brekker.I listen to Gary Brekker stuff a lot.You should listen to David Stavridson.Yeah, I know, I know.
I've come across him.I probably recognise him.Gary Brekker's podcast is awesome.
So I try to do three minutes in the cold dip as much as possible.And I use that way more than a hot dip or sauna.I mean, it is hard.But you kind of feel really good after.
Yeah, so I've tried meditation.My brother's really into it.I've never really got to a point with it.I've probably not done it enough.But I feel like this kind of hijacks you into a state of silence in the mind because you can't think about anything.
You just can't.You're impossible.And I thought my cold plunge was cold at like 15 degrees.And then I went to Peru and I'm staying in this amazing Airbnb complex with like eight places and a pool in the middle.And my brother said, look,
the climate in the valley of Peru where he lives, she's like, it's cold at night, it's hot in the day and cold at night.And yeah, the water never gets hot.So he said, your pool will be cold.So I was like, I just got my cold punch.
I was like, I'm going to see.Anyway, jumped in first day.I was like, wow. fucking freezing and I lasted a minute.Yeah, and then over a nine-day period, I got to five minutes on the last day.But then I thought that was cold.
So, then I go to the coldest plunge center here.First one was eight degrees but I was like, that's Peru.Yeah.So, I did a couple of minutes easily.I was like, yeah, that's Peru temperature.And then I went and sat in a two degrees one.Two degrees?Yeah.
And I lasted a minute.I should try that.I mean, mine says seven degrees. Yeah, I find that hard.I do three minutes.
Two minutes.My feet, like, instantly, it was being just stabbed.And I was like, well, apparently, like, you know, it's going to be like that soon, isn't it?Yeah.Where are we, Little Pea?
I mean, by December, your cold plunge will have an icy lid on it, naturally.Yeah, I mean, I'm in Sandbank, so I either get snowed down there or I'll get snowed.How much different is it down there, climate-wise?
I think it is quite.I mean, again, I haven't been up, I haven't been north of London.I've only been north of London about three times in my life. Yeah, it never snows, you never get ice because it's just the salt water, the salt air.
Harry Redknapp lives down there, right?He's two doors away from me.Really?Yeah, two doors down.Do you speak to him?No, I mean, the weird thing is when I bought sandbags, he was one of the people bidding against me for the property.
So yeah, it was Harry Redknapp.
I'll stick that, love that.
Is there anyone else down there that you've met, worked with, that are interested?There's some really interesting guys.There's actually... I mean, I don't know if you're into outdoor pursuits at all, or... Did you get Osprey bags?No.
So, you'll see them everywhere now, Osprey.But the founder of Osprey... Is that the ramp? Yeah, that's great.Well, he lives just a few doors down as well.There's the owner of LearnDirect, which is a big learning platform.
A couple of doors down from me again is is a guy, really good guy called Simon.He sold his business to Facebook, like an AI kind of intelligent software.How would you get to know all these people out there?Is there anything like networking?
It was actually the King's Coronation when I moved in, literally a week after I moved in.So I just got to meet the whole neighborhood.Now I was always a bit skeptical on Sandbanks.I was a bit like, yeah, Sandbanks, yeah, it's a bit kind of like
And it's really bad because even I think it's like, I don't know why, but sometimes I think you think successful people, they're going to be wankers and I don't know why, but it's such a ridiculous thought process.
Well, most people get to success by being good people.Which is one of the, I mean, it would be a whole different argument here, but yeah, one of the massive
one of the upsides of capitalism and private sector is you have to run a good business and you have to be a good guy for people to want to work for you.Yeah.Otherwise, if you don't, you're going to die.Yeah.
So, I actually find generally like people being very successful, like a lot of people have on sound mic, so a little bit less expensive place to live.They've all got really good stories and really interesting people.So, I've actually met some
fascinating people and they're really good neighbors.It's opened my eyes to a lot of things and connections and stuff like that.Do they have any networking events or is it just bars and people meet?
It's bars, but yeah, just solving numbers when we met at that event and staying in touch.But yeah, doing cool things and even instructions from that into business ventures that they're doing or different things.So it does definitely
kind of raise the bar in terms of your networking and things like that.
What is your approach to alcohol?I'm interested.Obviously, I'm not drinking, but no judgment.But how do you approach it?
It's difficult.I love wine.I love a glass of wine with dinner.But I wouldn't say I didn't drink every night.And I always try to at least have at least three nights in a row during the week to not drink.That should be really easy.
But just make sure you have three in a row.Apparently, if you have three days off in a row, your liver starts healing itself.
So I would say, but I still do have the odd wild night where I drink quite a lot and socialize and I tend to go to... I do find it hard, I think alcoholism, you've got to be almost completely off it or completely in it.
Yeah, like you go to a party and you say, I'm just having one.People are like, oh, come on, you know.But if you say... That's what I find.If you say I don't drink or I'm not drinking for October or whatever, it's a lot easier.
Yeah, I genuinely think the feeling I have is like, I don't have to think about whether I'm going to have that drink tonight.I don't have to think about it.It's like, it's gone.And it used to be a thing that played in my mind a lot.
I mean, we have that I'm gonna have three or four.How's it gonna affect me tomorrow?I used to play a lot on my mind.
But I don't know how I'd feel if I was in your position where I've got to get up the next day for work right now.I've got a young family.It's very dependent.It could come crashing down.Yours is a little bit more stable, a bit more firm.
I can see how if people were lonely or had no hobbies or they were maybe stricken to alcoholism or whatever.But again, I think because I do triathlons and I've got a sports side, I'm very wary of that and the longevity as well.
Does it affect you mentally though the next day? Yeah, definitely if I drink, I would definitely fit it the next day.I think you need to sleep, you kind of like wake up quite a lot, forget for like three peas on the night.
Do you get that negative slant though, or are you still able to stay?My business partner, he knows it's like part of the process.He's like, it's a chemical, it'll go.It doesn't affect him as it would me.
I start questioning things a bit too much and it's like a slump I get myself in.
I think you can always feel a little bit down.It's almost like a dopamine high when you're drinking but I think people quite often say when you're using chemicals you get dopamine high.
That is depleting your reserves and you're going to make up for it a day or so later. I didn't do drugs, but people say, I think people who do on a Saturday night get suicide Tuesday, where they get really low a couple of days later.
So I think everything is in balance.And for me, Yeah, I do it in moderation.I have drinks with friends.It's quite a social thing.I enjoy it.So I would give it up.
I've never actually given it up for more than a couple of weeks, which I probably should try.
That's the crazy thing with alcohol.It's like most people start at such a young age and then it just becomes part of the furniture.Yeah. Final question before, I've got one question that I've took from a previous guest.
So every time a previous guest gives me new questions for the future.My question for you would be just what is the future then?So for you personally now, what's, well, obviously you've got projects, you've got your keen father.
Is there anything you want to achieve?Anything grand you want to do?
I think I just want to be a stay-at-home dad. Like, as uninspiring as that sounds.Do you think more kids is on the cards?Yeah, I think, I mean, I love kids.
I think one thing that I feel robbed off was I, yeah, from the age of 24 to pretty well 40, I was full send at work.And a big part of that was
I'd say to have a lifestyle I have now, but part of that lifestyle is also to give my kids opportunities and security.I feel proud that they get to private school.You said earlier, hygiene, not terms of practice, but they are quite lucky.
While I was building that company, they went to state school, so they appreciate the privacy.So for me, I feel a bit robbed of the time probably when they're three, five, six, seven, eight, you know, these cuddly ages and cute ages.
Quite often I was leaving the house when I was married, kissing my kids on the head when they're asleep and coming back and kissing them on the head when they're still asleep because they've gone back to bed.
And yeah, I generally feel like I've been robbed of that and now I've got enough opportunity to get that back.So for me, it's nice.
That's a really good question.No.Yeah, that is a good question, because I would say no, because then I didn't get that time with the kids.But then if I had, I didn't think I would be able to grow the business, give them security.
You wouldn't be you either.Yes, I don't think I would.But I do regret not getting the time that I have left.And also a big part of me is I really want to see LHI become a billion pounds.
I want to see Jim Ham that the flame to the next guy comes through and to see that progress.I would hate it. If once all our payouts done, the company starts nosediving, or I'm sure it will, it feels like it's in a good place.
For me, even if I got all my money out and I saw the company nosedive, that'd be a massive failure for me.I want to see it do really well.
Yeah, but the work you did, at the time, which again, there's sacrifices which we've identified.I think you've set the foundation that it shouldn't go that way.Yeah, I hope so.Yeah, it's got a legacy that's going to grow up.
This is a question given to me by somebody else, right?And it's back to more a recruitment question.I remember some of the stories you told us about like, you know, the changing of the house, the playing of noise in the background, the offices.Yeah.
From a BD perspective, what's the most out of the box tactic you ever deployed to win a customer, to open up a door?
This is going to sound off the wall.One of the best BD things I ever did, which was a catastrophic mistake, was I sent a huge bulk mail merge.BD is mail merges on CRM systems.
1,000 customers and the first sentence was deer and it should have had XXX and it will take their first name.So it parses each message.
I somehow overwritten the first one, because the first one was going to a woman called Sarah, and I put Sarah over there, so it's sent to everyone, to every single person.
This message is going, Dear Sarah, like to Bruce, to Mike, to Ian, to, yeah, anyone.So the moment I do a send out of that, the response rate would be... Yeah, two or three percent or whatever.Be very little.Most people ignore it.Blah, blah, blah.
On this mail match, I think I got something like a 30% return with everyone going, I'm not fair.Fucking dick.Like, yeah, you can't get my name right, let alone what else.I was like, oh my god.
But because they got in touch, I think a nice guy, a genuine engagement going, I am so sorry, you know, it won't happen again.How are you?Yeah.And I started all these conversations. So, I mean... You didn't try and pretend you did it on purpose, no?
No.You didn't say that this is a... No.
I mean, but weirdly, I didn't get any of my other companies... I think it's good to get a reputation for like constantly doing backward mail badges.
But on the back of that, I've got multiple, multiple, multiple calls and meetings from doing that one thing.It's probably not a good... But that's a mistake, isn't it? That's a mistake, it worked.
It's probably not a good answer to say to people like, oh my God, I was going to start sending like dodgy mailshots out now.But I think the big thing in that is just any kind of communication is good communication.
And I think, you know, again, it's having a positive mentality.Even when someone complains, it's an opportunity to speak to them.It's an opportunity to turn it around and to create a relationship.
I think as long as you're a good guy, you're looking at a good service. Half of it is a bit like the film Hitch.Shock and awe.The only thing he really did was make introductions to people.That introduction is the hardest part of any BD.
It's then you've got to be a good BDO to then take on to the next level and offer a good service.So they want to use you and they'll recommend you.That initial call, that initial meeting is the hardest part.
So I think it's anything you can do to get that initial meeting or that initial call.Is that a film you enjoy?Hitch.Love that film.Yeah, I love that film.
I think we like similar films.I'm Wilder and Hitch.There you go.And Gary Brekker. Tom, thanks so much for making the trip to somewhere you didn't even know.The sat-nav got you here.Thanks to the sat-nav in your vehicle.Thank you so much.
Like I said, I've been waiting for this episode because... I'm not just saying it, like, honestly, the amount of references I get to our first episode and it was, I think, a pivotal time because it was just before COVID, people were like on the buzz.
If you remember the start of 2020, it was a really good start to a year and then everything else was just doomsday.I feel like all my episodes after you were probably pretty doomsday, like, fuck, how are we going to survive?
Well, I think, yeah, like I said, I think it was good timing because I think I just stepped away, I just promoted Jim to CEA.
we were trying to do for that sale but then COVID hit and then we kind of come through it now and we've made that sale and it's been good.At least I'm sitting here saying it all went crashing down.
I'm not saying it all went crashing down and went the other way, but it's been a good story.
Thank you so much.Thanks so much for coming.It's been a pleasure.If anyone wants to reach out to you, I'm sure they will. Are you interested in any more NED gigs at the moment?
Yeah, I love working with people that I enjoy and have fun with and are ambitious and driven.And I always feel like I can add a huge amount of value but I'm limited in time with my kids and everything else.
So someone's got to send you a good shock and awe email if they want you to work.A good shock and awe email.I mean, I work with three clients and I try to minimize it to that because I just don't want to show myself too thinly.
I think someone's going to get in. So yeah, if anyone's listening, someone's going to get into a shock and awe message.Mate, I wish you the best of luck and I'm sure we'll get you on again in a few years and see how things go.Yeah, perfect.Top man.
Cheers Sean.Cheers mate.Thank you as always for listening to today's show.I truly hope that you got value from it.
Honestly, it's the only reason I take time every week to ensure that my audience, you guys, future and existing recruitment owners, you're learning from each other to make this industry that I love so much stronger.
And today's episode is brought to you by my business, Hoxho.I'm the CEO and founder, and we're on a mission to help brand recruitment agencies and their people better.
I want to help people have the tools to stand out in the most competitive markets in the world.So I'll see you again next week with another episode.Catch you soon.
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