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Business
Davina Frederick
What if you could hang out with successful women lawyers, ask them about growing their firms, managing resources like time, team and systems, mastering money issues, and more; then take an insight or two to help you build a wealth-generating law firm? That’s what we do each week on the Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast. Hosted by Davina Frederick, founder and CEO of Wealthy Woman Lawyer –– every episode is an in-depth look at how to think like a CEO, attract clients who you love to serve (and will pay you on time), and create a profitable, sustainable firm you love. The goal is to give you the information you need to scale your law firm business from 6 to 7 figures in gross annual revenue so you can fully fund, and still have time to enjoy, the lifestyle of your dreams.
Total 273 episodes
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Victoria Collier | 7 Steps To Selling Your Law Firm

Victoria Collier | 7 Steps To Selling Your Law Firm

On this week’s Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we welcome Victoria Collier. Victoria is a certified elder law attorney who built a firm with a $1.5 million dollar value. After taking her law firm to great heights, she realized it was no longer serving her passion and wasn’t getting her to where she wanted to be from a personal standpoint, so she sold it for six times her net revenue. Today, she coaches attorneys on positioning their firms for sale so they can step into their true purpose or pursue another passion. Listen as she shares with us:The 7 most important steps to take when preparing your firm for sale What buyers want to see—the assets that make your firm highly marketableEgo, imposter syndrome, insecurities...how to step around the hurdles that keep you from getting to your next place of passion, once you sell your firm And much more...
54:2620/10/2021
Rewind: Lourdes Fuentes Slater - Systems Set-Up for a ‘Lean’ Law Firm

Rewind: Lourdes Fuentes Slater - Systems Set-Up for a ‘Lean’ Law Firm

This week, on the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® podcast, we are replaying this classic episode because it was in our top three most popular with listeners.Lourdes Fuentes Slater is the CEO of Karta Legal, a legal operations and law firm management consulting firm. Karta Legal provides independent advice to both law firms and legal departments on how to innovate using technology. Lourdes is a Black Belt in Lean Six Sigma, a process improvement methodology.“When you’re starting your business, or when you have a small firm and you want to compete with the bigger fish, I think technology is the great equalizer,” says Lourdes.She also reveals how to play bigger by leveraging technology...How adjusting your processes can bring in more clients (and more profits)Thinking beyond the laptop—A holistic approach to innovating your technologyHow small firms can embrace technology to compete with the “big boys”Why digital transformation is the key to a profitable businessAnd much more
51:3113/10/2021
Kristy Cook | How Transparency and Authenticity Skyrocketed One Firm’s Success

Kristy Cook | How Transparency and Authenticity Skyrocketed One Firm’s Success

On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we welcome Kristy Cook, the founder of Mod Law Firm. Mod Law Firm is a bi-coastal, completely virtual firm focused on serving purpose driven businesses. Kristy has spent the last decade assisting for profit and not-for-profit businesses achieve their heart centered goals.When Kristy opened her own law firm, her goal was to be completely transparent about everything—including her fees, and it’s paying off for her (and her clients) big-time. Listen to discover how she made the transition, her best advice if you’re considering the same, plus…Her bulletproof marketing strategy (hint: she used this with much success after moving her firm to a new state)Networking for more than just growing your firmThe controversial tactic she implemented to prescreen her prospects that her clients love (visit her website to see for yourself)How to provide value-added services for your clients (and keep them coming back again and again)And much more...
37:4606/10/2021
Rewind: Ruby Bolton - Guilt: The Working Mom’s Dilemma

Rewind: Ruby Bolton - Guilt: The Working Mom’s Dilemma

This week, I’m bringing back my conversation with Ruby Bolton on the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® podcast because of more than 100 episodes, this was, by far, the most popular.Ruby’s story is like that of many working mothers. For years she was caught up in the “women in the workplace double standard” and filled with working-mom guilt even as she excelled in her career. Ruby says, “The biggest factor ... in my being successful was making the decision that it was okay. That it was not something that I needed to feel guilty about.”Discover how she shifted from feeling constrained by traditional social expectations to thriving in all areas of her life, plus...Why how you see yourself is the key to determining your future successThe number one hallmark of being “successful”Why high-achieving women have a hard time delegatingHow to be a successful business owner and a professionalAnd much more...
42:0629/09/2021
Rewind: Regina Edwards - From Big Firm to Big Life

Rewind: Regina Edwards - From Big Firm to Big Life

This week, I’m bringing back one of my favorite conversations from the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® podcast......my conversation with Regina Edwards, of Edwards Family Law, one of the most unique, dynamic and revolutionary family law firms in the state of Georgia.Regina’s story stands out because it wasn't that long ago that she thought she was FINISHED with practicing law, even escaping to Scottsdale, Arizona in a “mini-retirement.” But, instead, she chose to completely reinvent her practice and her life…Now she’s no longer chained to her desk, she travels at will while still providing great service to satisfied clients…and she’s healthier and HAPPIER than ever.How’d she do it?Here’s what you’ll discover in this special “rewind” episode of the podcast…Key strategies for finding clarity about the kind of practice YOU wantHow to live in one state while practicing in another (Hint: It’s 100% doable)How to stop micromanaging and seamlessly work with your team (even if they’re virtual)The critical element often missing in the client vetting processAnd much more
59:1422/09/2021
My Must-Have 2-Part Client Management System

My Must-Have 2-Part Client Management System

Today, I read yet another post from a woman law firm owner “venting” about a “bad” client. Certainly, some people will never be easy to work with. Most “bad” client stories I read and hear, though, could have different outcomes if the law firm had a better client control or client management system. In this episode, I share one that was taught to me when I started my practice years ago, and one I’ve shared with many of my women law firm owner clients with tremendous success.You’ll discover…Why you need to stop “building rapport” and focus on client confidence insteadOne simple tactic to determine if your client is truly “invested” in their case (before you engage with them)Where 99% of attorneys fail in client management (and why you don’t have to be one of them)How to stop clients in their tracks when they try to take control of things (while still being kind and polite)And much, much more...
20:5315/09/2021
5 Strategies To Hire A+ Team Members Even When Good Help Feels Hard to Find

5 Strategies To Hire A+ Team Members Even When Good Help Feels Hard to Find

Are you suffering from the “success dilemma” in your firm?It’s one many women law firm owners seem to be struggling with right now... they are so successful that they are turning away work and yet, they can’t hire the talented A+ associates, paralegals and admins they need to meet the demand.If you are feeling the hiring pinch, know it’s not just you, and it’s not an illusion. Daily media reports are filled with stories of the “Great Resignation” and the U.S. labor shortage. Apparently, law firms are not exempt.Today, on the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® podcast, I share five strategies to help you cultivate the team you need to grow your firm and work fewer hours—even though, right now, good help is hard to find:Why “Think Different” will be the hiring mantra of growing firms for the next decadeHow to use the factor of “specificity” to find hidden talent in your network, eager for a new opportunity  The employment ad secret that pre-screens for top candidates before they ever applyAnd more...
16:5508/09/2021
5 Steps to Five-Star Law Firm Reviews

5 Steps to Five-Star Law Firm Reviews

Online reviews can either be a magnet for new clients to your firm, or a ghost town that looks abandoned. Having a healthy review profile for your law firm is no longer optional.The problem is happy clients don’t always stop to leave reviews, and unhappy ones (or their friends and relatives) can’t get to the keyboard fast enough.In this episode I share with you five specific strategies to get more 5-star client reviews from satisfied clients. Listen and you’ll discover...How to give your clients the red-carpet treatment from day one (and virtually guarantee they’ll fall over themselves to leave a 5-star review)The number one way to garner helpful (timely) feedbackThe most important aspect of winning that 5-star reviewAnd much more...
19:2701/09/2021
The 4-Step Framework to Shift Your Negative Money Stories

The 4-Step Framework to Shift Your Negative Money Stories

According to experts, many of your deeply held beliefs are established by age 7. This includes our “money stories”—those stories we tell ourselves about money, hard work and wealth. Depending on what you’ve been taught and internalized, you may have created a subconscious limit to what you believe you can achieve financially.On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® podcast, I’m talking about our money stories because it’s the place where so many of my clients—women law firm owners like you—get stuck when they set out to scale their law firm businesses to $1M or more. Today I’ll share with you my four-step framework to help you shatter your internal glass ceiling, shift any negative beliefs around money, and finally achieve your biggest wealth goals.Discover:Why the way you think about money keeps you brokeHow to spot the money myths in your subconscious mindPlus, detailed strategies to help you change your money story starting nowAnd even more...
19:2925/08/2021
3 Questions That Shatter Limiting Beliefs and Increase Impact

3 Questions That Shatter Limiting Beliefs and Increase Impact

On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® podcast, I want to introduce you to 3 questions you can ask yourself when you are feeling overwhelmed and exhausted by all the items on your “to do” list, or when you feel out of control.I remember the first time someone asked me to ponder these questions in relation to my business. At the time, my ideas about time and money were very fixed, but through this process of discovery, my beliefs changed, and with them, so did my ability to shift my thinking. Along with that shift came breakthroughs for me and my clients that I previously did not think were possible.Today, I want to invite you to journey with me through these 3 questions so the next time you are feeling stuck, frustrated, sad, or even just confused about what to do next, you'll have some tools in your toolbox to help you step into what’s possible.We hope you enjoy this episode as we discuss:The one question to ask that will shatter your limiting beliefsThe secret to ending negative thoughtsHow taking off your sarcasm-colored glasses can change your lifeAnd much more...
15:5418/08/2021
7 Foundational Systems of Successful Law Firms

7 Foundational Systems of Successful Law Firms

On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® podcast, we focus on 7 foundational systems to put in place for a successful law firm. When I’m talking with law firm owners who want to scale and create a profitable, sustainable law firm, it’s common to hear “I need systems.” But finding the time to set up those systems seems impossible, and even if you did, who knows where to start. My purpose today is to help you get some clarity on the types of systems you need to augment your firm so you can make the best—most profitable—use of your time. We hope you enjoy this episode as we discuss:The 4 external systems for managing the “buyer’s journey” The 3 internal systems—or the key to getting your life backHow to boost client confidence and referralsThe move that could put an extra $300,000 in your pocketAnd even more.
19:2111/08/2021
Joan Wilson | The Secret to Finding the Perfect Target Market for Your Law Firm

Joan Wilson | The Secret to Finding the Perfect Target Market for Your Law Firm

On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we welcome attorney Joan Wilson, Managing Partner of the all female firm of RWC, LLC. Joan received her law degree from Boston University School of Law. She is the President Elect of the Connecticut Chapter of the National Academy of Elder Law Attorneys (NAELA), and is one of 15 attorneys chosen by the Connecticut Attorneys Title Insurance Company (CATIC) to serve on its advisory committee.Today, we sit down with Joan to talk about the twists and turns in her journey to law school, the strategies she employs to help her achieve her goals, as well as:  The no compromises “real” way to set your firm apartThe big leap of faith that led to her success The 3 hidden benefits of networking (you might be missing these)And more...
43:2304/08/2021
Ashley Kirkwood | How to Be a Law Firm Owner and a Paid Speaker

Ashley Kirkwood | How to Be a Law Firm Owner and a Paid Speaker

We’re excited to welcome Ashley Kirkwood to this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast. After graduating with honors from the Northwestern University Pritzker School of Law, Ashley began her career at one of the largest and most profitable law firms in the world, Kirkland & Ellis.Ashley was living the dream as a well paid corporate lawyer but when she changed firms based on an offer she couldn't refuse, the dream soured quickly. She knew there had to be a better way than stuck in a firm that didn't fit. In our interview, we discuss the big shifts she made, and secrets to her success. Plus, How to play to your strengths to increase your impactHow to get paid top dollar as a speakerThe secret to scaling your own law firm so you are no longer needed for the day-to-day operationsHer important message to other women law firm ownersAnd more.
48:2628/07/2021
Lindsey Egan | What Peloton Taught Lindsey Egan About Running Her Law Practice

Lindsey Egan | What Peloton Taught Lindsey Egan About Running Her Law Practice

On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we welcome Lindsey Egan.  Lindsey attended Massachusetts School of Law where she graduated Cum Laude and in the top 10 percent of her class. Prior to starting her own practice in 2018, she provided litigation support for a Fortune 500 company.Now, she runs Egan Law Center, a boutique client-centered family law and estate planning law office in beautiful Manchester-by-the-Sea.Lindsay sits down with us today to tell us the story of her transition from her first great love to family law, the rare and life-threatening obstacle she surmounted to get to where she is today, as well as:Why “showing your salad” is the key to building client trust How Peloton helped her make her practice uniqueThe 5 keys to her marketing success   Her advice to other female attorneysAnd more...
39:4521/07/2021
Amanda Abella | Avoid These Top 3 Mistakes Many Women Make in Sales

Amanda Abella | Avoid These Top 3 Mistakes Many Women Make in Sales

Our guest on this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast is Amanda Abella. Amanda is an award-winning content creator, business coach, and the founder and CEO of Make Money Your Honey, a marketing and sales training company that specializes in creating world-class business programs for women.  She’s also a recovering under earner, people pleaser, and over giver who spent years afraid of becoming a sell-out. She’ll tell us what helped her step out of all of those roles and onto a stage where she could help more people with her gifts. Now her clients go from hating sales to huge close rates. We’ll talk to her about the quarter-life crisis that changed the trajectory of her career, her book, “Make Money Your Honey,” as well as: The mindset transition that will help you finally earn the money you deserveWhy undercharging for your services leads to failureThe top 3 mistakes she sees women make in salesHow to change your outlook in one easy stepAnd more
51:3614/07/2021
Anna Byrne | Secrets to Building a Profitable Firm Using Your Life Experiences

Anna Byrne | Secrets to Building a Profitable Firm Using Your Life Experiences

On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we welcome attorney Anna Byrne. Anna has over 25 years of estate planning experience and is the founding partner at Eckert Byrne LLC. Lawyers Weekly selected her as a Top Woman of Law in Massachusetts in 2014, and she was named SuperLawyer™ by Thomson Reuters from 2015 to present.But it was her life experience as a young widow that inspired her practice. In 2016, she published the book, “A Widow’s Guide” to help women who have lost a spouse through their first year. Recently she published her second book, called, “The Inheritor’s Guide: A Legal, Financial, and Emotional Guide for Adult Children Managing Their Parent’s Legacy.” We chat with Anna about her new book, the life experiences that led to the vision that sets her practice apart, as well as:The estate planning conversation everyone overlooks (you’ll be able to use this one strategy for yourself and to help your clients)The single best gift you can leave your loved onesOne decision she wishes she’d made sooner Her mantra for growing her law firmAnd more...
52:3907/07/2021
Jennifer Abelaj | One Simple Tactic to Protect the Value of Your Time

Jennifer Abelaj | One Simple Tactic to Protect the Value of Your Time

On this week’s Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we speak with attorney Jennifer Abelaj. A first generation American, Jennifer’s career has a unique trajectory. She started out as a Certified Public Accountant with Ernst and Young before going to law school, and eventually starting her own firm, Jennifer V. Abelaj Law Firm in New York.Today we sit down with Jennifer to learn more about her and what she’s discovered on her journey including:The #1 surprise she found when starting her solo practice (and how you can avoid it)One little-known secret to getting more referralsHow Jennifer protects her time, and the big lesson you can learn from it And much more.
36:1930/06/2021
Jessica Medina | Big Law Breakout: Follow Your Calling and Build Wealth (Even with Debt)

Jessica Medina | Big Law Breakout: Follow Your Calling and Build Wealth (Even with Debt)

On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer®️ Podcast, we are joined by Jessica Medina, a former Big Law attorney who gave up the velvet handcuffs in favor of following her dreams. The decision was not an easy one, says the Columbia Law grad, because at the time, she also was shackled with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. And, she was a single mother of twin babies.Jessica shares with us how she made it work, and why she chose to become an Accredited Financial Counselor (hint: she wants to teach other lawyers how to free themselves from the Big Law grind and live the life of their dreams).Jessica shares with us her journey, where it led her, and…The importance of finding what you love and following that pathWhat she wishes she had known before she pursued a law degreeA plan for building wealth without worrying about student loan debtWhy your “why” is so importantAnd more 
48:2023/06/2021
Sarah Poriss | How Niching Down Can Skyrocket Your Success

Sarah Poriss | How Niching Down Can Skyrocket Your Success

On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we speak with attorney Sarah Poriss. From the beginning of her career at Consumer Law Group in Rocky Hill, Connecticut, Sarah was focused on representing consumers who were experiencing a personal financial crisis. Sarah was a member of Connecticut’s Bench-Bar Foreclosure Committee for its first seven years, helping draft the foreclosure mediation rules and procedures to involve more homeowners in saving their homes.She’s taken the heart of that work to the next level, representing only consumers with money issues through her firm Sarah Poriss, Attorney at Law, LLC, the largest woman-owned foreclosure defense law firm in Connecticut.She is the author of the book Got Debt? Dispatches from the Front Lines of America’s Financial Crisis, a collection of stories about working with people in debt over the last ten years. We chat with Sarah about her career, as well as:How she became the media’s go-to for her area of expertiseWhy she chose her nicheThe benefits of working with her ideal clientHer new bookAnd much more.
52:2816/06/2021
3 Must-Have Elements of Your Law Firm’s Lead-Generating Sales Funnel

3 Must-Have Elements of Your Law Firm’s Lead-Generating Sales Funnel

In the third and final episode of our series focused on The Wealthy Woman Lawyer’s Guide to Law Firm Marketing in the Virtual Age: 10 Bold Actions to Take Now to Attract Your Ideal Clients with Total Ease, we cover:Understanding sales funnelsCreating a website that convertsHow to select your distribution channelThe number one secret to effective marketingAnd much more.
17:5809/06/2021
How to Develop and Communicate Your Law Firm’s Brand Message

How to Develop and Communicate Your Law Firm’s Brand Message

In the second of our three-part series focused on The Wealthy Woman Lawyer’s Guide to Law Firm Marketing in the Virtual Age: 10 Bold Actions to Take Now to Attract Your Ideal Clients with Total Ease, we discuss developing your law firm’s brand message including:How to articulate your valueCrafting your messageCreating a content plan with easeAnd much more!
11:3902/06/2021
Three Actions to Take to Attract Clients You LOVE

Three Actions to Take to Attract Clients You LOVE

On the first of three episodes focusing on how to effectively market your law firm business and attract ideal clients, we share with you excerpts from The Wealthy Woman Lawyer’s Guide to Law Firm Marketing in the Virtual Age: 10 Bold Actions to Take Now to Attract Your Ideal Clients with Total Ease.In this episode we cover getting to know your prospects including:How to identify your ideal client Clarifying the problem you solveLocating your ideal clients (figuring out where they hang out)And much more
13:4426/05/2021
Sheereen Middleton | Virtual Law Firm Success Secrets

Sheereen Middleton | Virtual Law Firm Success Secrets

On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer®️ Podcast, we sit down with Sheereen Middleton. Sheereen is the Founder of Middleton Legal, a boutique, virtual law firm that focuses on bankruptcy, real estate, and estate planning in the state of Maryland. She has successfully created and operated her firm, growing it to include a team of 9, most of whom are distributed, remote workers. Based on her qualifications and successes, in 2020, Sheereen was invited to membership in the prestigious National Black Lawyers Top 40 Under 40.“I felt like my purpose on this planet was to do something beneficial to others, and in law school, I learned how impactful we [attorneys] can be,” says Sheereen.We chat with her about her love of the law, her successful business model and: Facing fears and overcoming barriers of starting in law Balancing practices in different states Marketing strategies to build a businessBuilding a company culture in a virtual world The keys to managing virtual assistantsAnd much more.
38:5019/05/2021
Jenna Zebrowski | Strategies for Building a Network and Wealth

Jenna Zebrowski | Strategies for Building a Network and Wealth

On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we sit down with Jenna Zebrowski. Jenna has over a decade’s worth of experience as an attorney working with leasing, franchise, mortgages, and more, and she is a landlord, investor, and property manager herself. Jenna knows better than anyone that the key to building wealth is in investing and networking. “The point is to meet this one key person who can elevate your game, elevate your networking, take you where you need to go and get you to that next level, and networking and connecting with these people on a personal level,” says Jenna. Jenna tells us about how she found real estate as the law sector that spoke most to her talents, desires, and lifestyle, as well as:Strategies to build a base of ideal clientsNetworking in a virtual world Investment lessons to learn from real estate crises Advice for getting started within the real estate marketGetting help to reach successAnd much more.
43:2312/05/2021
Michelle Dellino | How and Why to Grow Your Law Firm Team Now—and Without Fear

Michelle Dellino | How and Why to Grow Your Law Firm Team Now—and Without Fear

On this week’s Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we speak with Michelle Dellino. Michelle is the Managing Attorney of Dellino Law Group. Seattle-based Dellino Law Group focuses on family law matters, including intimate relationships, asset dissolution, domestic violence, and prenuptial and postnuptial agreements; criminal defense; and estate planning.Michelle, who was forced to face her own mortality when she was diagnosed with cancer at the tender age of 24, fears little now. That fearlessness and knowing that life can be cut short in an instant, has led her to take risks with much greater ease than she might have otherwise. Leaving job security to start her own law firm. Check. Taking her paralegal with her. Check. Quickly expanding and growing her firm to include a team of 10. Check. Check.We chat with Michelle about not only her life experiences that led her down this path, but also her growth secrets including:Her decision to hire and grow a team quickly so she could impact more people in need of legal servicesFinding confidence and battling imposter syndrome as a woman in the law fieldThe qualities of a strong and successful leaderIncorporating wellness into professional spaces (and offering a one-of-a-kind employee benefit)Advice for cultivating a team of shared core valuesAnd more.
47:4405/05/2021
Elizabeth Franklin-Best | A New Kind of Advocacy: Federal Criminal Defense and Appeals

Elizabeth Franklin-Best | A New Kind of Advocacy: Federal Criminal Defense and Appeals

On this week’s Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we speak with Elizabeth Franklin-Best, Founder of Elizabeth Franklin-Best P.C. in Columbia, South Carolina. A former career public defender and death penalty defense attorney, Elizabeth focuses her private practice on federal criminal defense; state and federal direct appeals; federal post-conviction; and habeas proceedings. Elizabeth’s goal has been to create a new kind of law firm--one that aspires to provide the highest forms of advocacy and professionalism for all clients.We chat with Elizabeth about her career as a woman in the criminal defense and appeals space, as well as:How her core values inform her workThe need for gender diversity in criminal defense and appellate work Advice for women entering the criminal defense spaceWhat keeps her going in tough casesAnd more.
49:2228/04/2021
Iffy Ibekwe | Break Thru “Nontraditional” and Establish Generational Wealth

Iffy Ibekwe | Break Thru “Nontraditional” and Establish Generational Wealth

On this week’s Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we speak with Iffy Ibekwe, an Estate Planning Attorney and Founder of Ibekwe Law. Ibekwe Law is dedicated to giving women and families that don’t fall under the “traditional” wealth umbrella a chance at building wealth and setting their families up for success. She also runs the We Read Her book club, a book club committed to reading works written by women of color. A graduate of the University of Texas at Austin, Iffy’s journey winded from art to pre-med to law, and now she’s dedicated to social justice and helping women establish their own legacies. She has been featured on Austin’s NPR affiliate and as an Austin Monthly Magazine’s Top Attorney.We chat with Iffy about the ways women can empower themselves and build agency over financial decisions, as well as: Recontextualizing the “doom and gloom” of estate planningThe values of establishing intergenerational wealth Building cultural competency to broaden your audienceGiving a spotlight to people of color and women in financial and written spacesJuggling maternity leave and a family while building a successful businessAnd more!
50:4321/04/2021
Brooke Lively | Tips on Running Your Law Firm Business from a Financial Analyst

Brooke Lively | Tips on Running Your Law Firm Business from a Financial Analyst

On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we speak with Brooke Lively, Founder and CEO of Cathedral Capital. As a Chartered Financial Analyst, Brooke specializes in helping entrepreneurs turn their companies into profitable businesses by working with closely held companies with revenues up to 10 million dollars. She is the author of the 6 Key Numbers book series, which includes From Panic to Profit: How 6 Key Numbers Can Make a 6 Figure Difference in Your Law Firm.Brooke laments the fact that most law schools don’t actually teach aspiring attorneys how to run a business. “You’d think law school would prepare you better,” she says, “knowing that an attorney is going to open their own firm. But they don’t and it’s such a shame.”We chat with Brooke about her top tips on laying a solid foundation for your business as a new attorney, as well as:Your ideal first hireVanity numbers and what you should be looking at insteadWhat “cash is king” actually means in practiceHow and why to run a law firm on the “Rule of Thirds”Percentage of your budget you should spend on marketingAnd more.
54:5314/04/2021
Jacquette M. Timmons | Overcoming the Emotional and Behavioral Limitations Around Money

Jacquette M. Timmons | Overcoming the Emotional and Behavioral Limitations Around Money

On this week’s Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we speak with Jacquette M. Timmons, the President and CEO of Sterling Investment Management. Jacquette is a Financial Behaviorist who is committed to helping others manage their choices around money more effectively. She is also the author of Financial Intimacy: How to Create Healthy Relationships with Your Money and Your Mate. Her work has been featured on Sirius XM, Good Morning America, CNN, NPR, and The Wall Street Journal.We chat with Jacquette about the four ways to best utilize your money, as well as:The habits that differentiate being rich from sustainable wealthThe three pathways to achieve lasting financial wealthThe various dimensions of wealth to consider in order to seek fulfillmentThe reluctance of reverse-engineering the number you want to see savedBeing careful about assumptions— roles and responsibilities in relationshipsAnd more.
52:0307/04/2021
Alexandra Davis | Attorneys Writing for Attorneys: Done-for-You Content Creation

Alexandra Davis | Attorneys Writing for Attorneys: Done-for-You Content Creation

On this week’s Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we speak with Alexandra Davis. Alexandra is a litigation attorney based in North Carolina and the founder of Davis Legal Media. Davis Legal Media provides attorney-written content for lawyers and law firms in need of high-quality, ghostwritten thought leadership pieces. Alexandra is a graduate of Campbell Law School where she served on the Board of Editors of Campbell's Law Review, and has written for the ABA Journal, Legal Tech News, Above the Law, Legal Business World and many more. “Everything you do as a professional, whether you do a lot of speaking engagements or you attend a lot of conferences, is making yourself known, making yourself searchable, and showing up where people are looking for you. And, that all contributes to building that sort of social trust that's necessary for someone to make a hire,” says Alexandra.We chat about the current demand for content writing and copywriting for attorneys, as well as:How to successfully work with a ghostwriter and why attorneys benefit from their serviceDelivering an authentic voice with website copyThe differences to consider when developing content for different platformsThe importance of being visible on multiple social media locationsInbound vs. outbound marketing and where you should devote your attention for maximum ROIAnd more
49:2431/03/2021
Rho Thomas | Shifting Your Mindset towards Financial Independence

Rho Thomas | Shifting Your Mindset towards Financial Independence

On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we speak with Rho Thomas, an Associate Attorney at an Am Law 100 Firm, mindset strategist, and personal finance coach who believes true wealth is having control of your time. Her message is also broadcasted through her podcast, Wealthyesque, where she continues to help lawyers and other professionals reframe their mindset and manage their money in order to reach financial independence and create more control in their lives. We chat about her family’s ongoing journey out of $670,000 in debt towards financial independence, as well as:Getting out of debt using the FIRE movementShifting from no-money-management education to financial independenceCommon money mythsIdentifying the need for real self-careMaking purchasing decisions that align with your core valuesAnd more.
45:4124/03/2021
Shreya Ley | Why Lawyers and Law Firm Owners Should Consider Asset Protection

Shreya Ley | Why Lawyers and Law Firm Owners Should Consider Asset Protection

On this week’s Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we speak with Shreya Ley, the President of LayRoots, co-founded with her husband Colin in Seattle, Washington. LayRoots is an asset protection and business planning law firm serving national and international clients using a combination of trust business entities, and both on and offshore accounts.LayRoots helps their clients, other professionals, entrepreneurs, and business owners (including other attorneys) structure and organize their personal and business assets, so they are prepared in the event that they need to defend themselves against loss and minimize damage.We also discuss Prep Trust™, a product they created to offer the strength of asset protection of a foreign trust, but with the simple maintenance of a US domestic trust.We chat about what led the Leys to focus on asset protection, as well as:Why you might want to think about asset protection to protect not only your personal assets but your law firmHow to ensure you retain privacy by making better registration decisionsDesirable layers of protection when making real estate investmentsThe reasons many business owners use offshore accounts and why to consider themAnd more.
42:4717/03/2021
Christina Lael | Tax Strategies to Stop Overpaying on Taxes

Christina Lael | Tax Strategies to Stop Overpaying on Taxes

On this week’s Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we speak with Christina Lael, a CPA and attorney who specializes in helping other attorneys save money by legally and significantly reducing their tax liability. Following her 10 years of experience in the tax department of a fortune 500 company, Christina started her own company to pursue her passion for helping clients reduce their taxes. Today, she is one of only 60 planners certified by the American Institute of Certified Tax Planners.“I'm an attorney, I study the tax code, and I continually study. I've learned how to use the strategies and the tax code for the greatest benefit of my client,” says Christina.We chat with Christina about how she implements her tax planning strategies, as well as:Unwittingly paying more than what’s necessary by using traditional accounting servicesHow effective tax planning can help save you moneyExplaining tax strategies to clients in their simplest termsThe real-world results of using effective tax strategiesSubstantiating your personal income and deductionsAnd more.
44:4210/03/2021
Starlett Massey | Building a Community-Oriented and Value-Integrated Law Firm Business

Starlett Massey | Building a Community-Oriented and Value-Integrated Law Firm Business

On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we’re joined by Starlett Massey, the Founder of Massey Law Group in St. Petersburg, Florida. Her firm offers commercial litigation and corporate transaction, real estate, and construction law services. We enjoyed speaking with Starlett about her firm’s unique business model— one that incentivizes attorneys not with billable hours, but for creative solutions and rapid resolution of client disputes. We also discussed:Her journey from non-equity partner in a big law firm to opening her own firm with employees and a full client roster from day oneThe best way to plan for, and accurately predict growthHow she found her secret success weapon—her law firm administratorHow a mix of contract and full-time employees helps her scale her business up or down quickly as neededThe importance of building trusting relationships within the small business and nonprofit communities in her hometownAnd much more.
42:5803/03/2021
Nakia Gray | Lawyer Life Beyond Big Law: Create What Works for You

Nakia Gray | Lawyer Life Beyond Big Law: Create What Works for You

Our guest on this week’s Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast is attorney and business consultant, Nakia Gray, the CEO and Founder of Nakia Gray Legal P.C., a modern and virtual law firm helping creative entrepreneurs and artists establish a brand and build a profitable business by protecting and leveraging their creative work. Nakia is also the Founder of Beyond the Bar Institute, a personal branding and online marketing consultancy for attorneys who are ready to leverage the internet to build their own brand, attract more clients and create a freedom-based law firm.We chat about why she left the fashion industry to become a lawyer and, ultimately, an online entrepreneur, as well as:Why she left Big Law to start her own businessHow she built a business model that worked for her familyBest practices for (and challenges of) hiring remote workersTips for taking your law firm 100% virtual The power of business coachingAnd more.
52:0824/02/2021
Sara Jones | Fighting for Justice for Her Clients and Her Hometown

Sara Jones | Fighting for Justice for Her Clients and Her Hometown

On this week’s Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we speak with Attorney Sara Jones, the Founder and CEO of Sara Jones Law in Lake Wales, Florida, one of the fastest growing firms in Polk County, about her fight for justice both for her clients and her community.The attorneys and staff of Sara Jones Law serve individuals and families with criminal defense, personal injury, and family law matters. In addition to leading her team to serve the citizens of Polk County, Sara also is a passionate social justice activist and community leader. Currently, she is the President of the Lincoln Community Development Corporation, the Secretary for the Green and Gold Foundation, and the Vice Chair of the Circle of Friends Board of Directors. She also sits on the City of Lake Wales Code Enforcement Board and has been instrumental in the implementation of the city's Lake Wales redevelopment plan.Sara says, “The law touches every part of people's lives, whether they realize it or not. My practice area was an extension of that desire to help people, because the people who come to me are either very emotionally hurt by their issues with criminal defense or family law or they're physically injured with their personal injury issues, and it brings me a certain amount of pleasure to be able to help people through difficult circumstances and get back on track to having the life that they want.”We chat about her decision to return to Lake Wales after law school so that she could serve her hometown community, plus: How fate led her to open her own law firmThe cascading events that guided Sara to a path of social justiceThe importance of community leadershipSome of the challenges she’s faced in her success journeyHow she maintained a standard of excellence while growing her team and firmAnd more.
58:2817/02/2021
Alexis Austin | The Right Choice is the Choice that Suits Your Vision

Alexis Austin | The Right Choice is the Choice that Suits Your Vision

On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we speak with Alexis Austin, CEO of Right Law Group, a Colorado Springs Criminal Defense Law Firm founded in June 2018. Since its inception, RLG has grown from one to nine full-time employees and is emerging as a sleek, technology-savvy firm. Alexis says, “It has been very, very interesting to see that the more people I bring on, the more quickly we generate revenue. And, it's not just attorneys, it's anyone. So, I think taking the leap and knowing that the more you grow, the more you can provide that service to your clients, which means handling more clients in a better way, is really the key to our quick success.”Alexis discusses her path as a continuous seeker of knowledge, as well as:Stepping into where you want to be, not where you areStaying true to your unique path, regardless of others’ adviceThe importance of branding your firm outside of yourselfApproaching client questions as a team to maximize attorney timeRight Law Group’s fixed fee strategyAnd more.
48:1210/02/2021
Ivy Grey | How Scotch, Swing Dancing, and WordRake Can Improve Your Career and Your Life

Ivy Grey | How Scotch, Swing Dancing, and WordRake Can Improve Your Career and Your Life

On this week’s Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we speak with Ivy Grey, the Vice President of Strategy & Business Development for WordRake, legal document editing software. Prior to joining the team at WordRake and delving into the legal technology world, Ivy practiced bankruptcy law for 10 years. She was recently named a 2020 Influential Woman in Legal Tech by the International Legal Technology Association. Ivy has also been recognized as a Fastcase 50 honoree and has been included on the Women of Legal Tech list by the ABA Legal Technology Resource Center.We chat about Ivy’s path to becoming an attorney and then leaving practice to pursue a career in legal tech. We also discuss:How Scotch and Swing Dancing played a significant role in her career development (and how it can help you)How WordRake improves legal writing and other law firm writing like employee handbooks, blog articles, and moreWhy WordRake might be right not only for the lawyers in the firm, but staff as wellThe importance of tech security when selecting tech toolsAnd much more.
48:4103/02/2021
Katy Goshtasbi | Get Clear on Your Personal Brand to Grow Your Law Practice

Katy Goshtasbi | Get Clear on Your Personal Brand to Grow Your Law Practice

On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we speak with Katy Goshtasbi, the Founder and CEO of Puris Consulting. For 14 years, Katy enjoyed her career as a securities lawyer, a federal lobbyist on Capitol Hill, and an attorney for the Securities and Exchange Commission. Twelve years ago she decided on a career change and now trains executives, entrepreneurs, and attorneys to define and communicate their personal brands with ease.Katy says, “No one can know you, except for you; that is what really is the essence of the brand development work. Your power lies within your own understanding of who you are. That's why you need to figure it out.”We discuss the power of silence, as well as:The big “aha” moment that prompted her career change Developing a holistic brand that’s true to you and aligns with your ideal clientsEstablishing and effectively communicating your personal brand The incredible effects of tuning into your unique and individual storyWhat to carefully consider before picking a practice areaAnd more.
48:2827/01/2021
Alycia Kinchloe | Advocating for Families and Building Stronger Communities

Alycia Kinchloe | Advocating for Families and Building Stronger Communities

Our guest on this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast is Alycia Kinchloe, Founder and CEO of Kinchloe Law in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Prior to starting her own firm, Alycia managed a midsize firm for several years, hiring and training attorneys and staff and helping to expand the firm from 1 to 140 team members. She currently practices family law, leads A House Divided Podcast to provide resources for the community to help create stronger families, and provides business expertise with other entrepreneurs on the Growth Goal Podcast. Alycia says, “Our goal is to build stronger communities and families through the way that we choose our clients, the way that we advocate for cases, and also the way that we provide community engagement.”We chat about Alycia finding her calling in the legal field and staying steadfast on her path, as well as:Building a broad perspective of every role in a firm to manage more effectivelyWhat to do when you realize you’ve been working for someone else’s dreamBest ways to approach the challenges of switching practice areas of lawIdentifying a need in her community and defying traditional gender rolesEmpowering parents and building stronger families through education of their rightsAnd more.
45:2120/01/2021
Melissa Emery | Expand Your Business to Serve More (and Better) Clients

Melissa Emery | Expand Your Business to Serve More (and Better) Clients

On this week’s Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we speak with Melissa Emery, Owner of Emery Law Office in Louisville, Kentucky. Melissa was an atypical law student, attending school two states away every weekend as a mother of four, yet still finishing in the top 10% of her class in just over two years. She opened her practice in 2017 and focuses on helping people who have been injured in motor vehicle collisions.Melissa says, “I think when you've got people in your life that help you, you want to give back and help other people. That's the thread that I feel runs through my life and through my business: I want to help other people. Not just clients, but other lawyers and their staff. And, the more I can expand my business, the more people we can help.”We discuss business development practices to reclaim your time, as well as:Overcoming hiring fearsAiding staff with personal goals to empower employees and your businessBuilding a comprehensive referral network with other trusted attorneysApproachable and personal marketing to connect with clientsThe mindset needed to attract aligned and ideal clients And more
42:4513/01/2021
Heidi Gardner | Why Smart Collaboration is the Success Tool Everyone is Talking About

Heidi Gardner | Why Smart Collaboration is the Success Tool Everyone is Talking About

On this week’s Wealthy Woman Lawyer ® Podcast, we speak with Heidi Gardner, PhD. Dr. Gardner is a Distinguished Fellow at Harvard Law School Center on the Legal Profession, Faculty Chair of the school's Accelerated Leadership Program, and co-founder of the Gardner & Co. Research and Advisory Firm. She's also the author of more than 70 books, chapters, case studies and articles, including: Smart Collaboration: How Professionals and Their Firms Succeed by Breaking Down Silos, published in 2017, and Leadership for Lawyers: Essential Strategies for Law Firm Success, published in 2019.Previously, Dr. Gardner was a Professor at Harvard Business School and has been named a Next Generation Business Guru by Thinkers50. She's also lived and worked on four continents, including as a Fulbright Fellow, and for both McKinsey & Company and Procter & Gamble.We discuss smart collaboration and its tangible outcomes, as well as: Best practices for working remotelyHow and why women solve problems differentlyProjections for future legal modelsEfficiently dividing time between leadership and managementAnd more
46:1706/01/2021
Shawn Karol Sandy | Improve Your Sales Skills to Increase Your Revenue

Shawn Karol Sandy | Improve Your Sales Skills to Increase Your Revenue

On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we speak with Shawn Karol Sandy, Founder and CRO of The Selling Agency. The Selling Agency helps businesses build sales skills, training entire teams, from receptionists to CEOs, on how to create a sales organization. The goal is to ensure that everyone in the organization has the sales skills they need to support the company’s growth.Shawn says, “I built The Selling Agency to help companies build smarter go-to-market strategies. Then, we teach the business owner or the sales team how to execute that strategy, and we build skills around that.”We chat about how lawyers can improve their sales skills and create a selling organization, as well as:The power of shifting your mindset to “service” to increase your conversion rateHow to leverage your team’s individual skills to create great customer experiencesBest practices when conducting legal consultationsHow asking the right pre-qualification questions can maximize your time and revenueAnd more
01:28:5630/12/2020
3 Planning Pitfalls to Avoid in the New Year

3 Planning Pitfalls to Avoid in the New Year

On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® podcast, we focus on three ways to avoid the planning pitfalls too often made when engaging in goal setting, and how to successfully implement strategies for success in the new year.Like many of you, we are excited to close out 2020 and welcome in a new year and a new chapter. Our mission in 2021 is to continue providing you with more tips, teachings, and trainings to support you in your law firm growth and wealth-creation journey.We hope you enjoy this episode as we discuss:How to assess your strengths so you can lead with them going forwardOne thing you must have before you write your new planWhy KPIs are so important and which ones I recommend you start tracking nowThe surefire method to use if you actually want to get things doneWhy success is not a solo project—even if you are a soloAnd much more.
26:4623/12/2020
Billie Tarascio | Keys to Law Firm Growth Success: Audacity, Optimism and Pushing Boundaries

Billie Tarascio | Keys to Law Firm Growth Success: Audacity, Optimism and Pushing Boundaries

Our guest on this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast is Billie Tarascio. She is the founder and owner of Modern Law and Access Legal. As a family law and divorce attorney, Billie sought to develop a certified legal document preparation and technology company dedicated to increasing access to justice. She is also a national speaker and author of the books Decode Your Divorce and Tiger Tactics: Winning Strategies for Building Law Firms. Billie says, “I wanted to be able to offer low-cost legal services and forward-facing legal documents that could be automated and customized. So, the sister company, I Do Over, is run by certified legal document preparers, which are paralegals that help people do their documents and get everything filed. It was a workaround, I had to open up two companies and set up walls and have the right contracts in order to offer this business model (in addition to the more traditional law practice).”We chat about Billie’s experience in opening a law firm in Arizona almost as soon as she moved there, the challenges she’s faced in growing her practice and starting its sister company, plus:The mistakes and lessons she’s learned hiring and managing a team of employees How delegating tasks and empowering others was the best decision in her growth journeyWhy her “law firm constitution” has been such a powerful toolHow learning and adopting the Net Promoter Score catapulted her firm to success (and provided tremendous insight into her clients)And much more
48:0016/12/2020
Lourdes Fuentes Slater | Systems Set-Up for a ‘Lean’ Law Firm

Lourdes Fuentes Slater | Systems Set-Up for a ‘Lean’ Law Firm

On this week’s Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we speak with Lourdes Fuentes Slater, the CEO of Karta Legal, a legal operations and law firm management consulting firm. She has been named Trailblazer by the New York bar journal for being an agent of change, a thought leader, and an innovator. Lourdes provides independent advice to both law firms and legal departments on how to innovate not only by using technology, but also examining the way they do things and improving legal processes.  Lourdes says, “What I advocate for is to look at how to eliminate waste by automating processes. When you automate certain processes, your need for the human workforce is reduced, and the money that you save more than pays for the technology itself. It provides opportunities for people that want to create their own businesses to be able to do so with the comfort and the understanding that there is a technology out there that will assist them in doing so without a huge capital investment.”We discuss her innovative approach to litigation, as well as:Setting up processes to improve efficiency, increase caseloads and drive profitsIntro to Lean Six Sigma and Agile systems thinking and toolsNecessity of maximizing systems and technology regardless of size of firmHow systems can help attorneys meet ethical obligation to offer the best representationOvercoming resistance to technology and systemsAnd more
51:3109/12/2020
Janet Falk | How PR Can Help Position Your Firm as the Go-To Resource in the Community

Janet Falk | How PR Can Help Position Your Firm as the Go-To Resource in the Community

On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we speak with Janet Falk, a Wall Street securities analyst turned PR professional, and the founder of Falk Communications and Research. Falk Communications and Research provides media relations, public relations, and marketing strategy for revenue growth for attorneys, as well as other professional consultants.  Janet says, “If you want to be seen, you want to be in the venue, or on the platform, or in the publication where your target market is looking for resources and information. That may be on social media, but recognize that you have to tag it and re-promote it repeatedly in order to get the attention of the people who are looking there. The reason why you want to be in print media is because print lives in print and online, so it's like you're getting two for the price of one.” We chat about why media relations is relevant, even in today’s “social” world, and the importance of leveraging PR to promote your firm, as well as:Positioning yourself as an expert thru third-party publicationsThe advantages of outsourcing your PRThe benefits of e-newsletters as a means of self-promotionAdvice for attorneys who are seeking more visibilityAnd more
52:5602/12/2020
Heinan Landa | How Tech Has Transformed Law Firm Life

Heinan Landa | How Tech Has Transformed Law Firm Life

On this week’s Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, we’re joined by Heinan Landa, Founder, and CEO of Optimal Networks, Inc., a globally ranked IT services firm. After earning his BS and MS in electrical engineering from Johns Hopkins University, Heinan went on to receive his MBA from the Wharton School of Business. Featured in Legal Management, Legal Times, Chief Executive Inc. Magazine, Forbes, CIO, and with regular appearances on WJLA-TV, WTTG-TV, and WUSA9, Heinan is a trusted leader in the legal technology and business spaces.We chatted with Heinan about all things tech for the legal industry, particularly the changes in law firm tech he has been observing since the global pandemic began. Heinan says, “During the first month or two of the lock-down, we had a lot of very quick implementations of Teams, Slack, and Zoom. Following that was a lot of discussion on taking a firm’s culture into the digital world to make people feel connected to their co-workers because that's what people were missing the most. Operationally, they were good: they were able to work on documents, they could call clients, they could do whatever they needed to do. But, it was all of a sudden this feeling of being disconnected from their teammates that they needed. That became the big topic of discussion.”We also discussed:Heinan’s book, The Modern Law Firm: How to Thrive in an Era of Rapid Technological ChangeTransitioning the culture of your firm into a digital spaceThe security issues that arise from distributed team members working from homeThe importance of a reliable IT team to your firmAnd more
44:4825/11/2020
Meagan Landress | From a Six Figure Student Loan Debt to a Six Figure Net Worth

Meagan Landress | From a Six Figure Student Loan Debt to a Six Figure Net Worth

On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® Podcast, we speak with Meagan Landress, an advisor with Student Loan Planner, to discuss how to shift from being six figures in student loan debt to having a six figure net worth. Since 2016, Student Loan Planner has consulted on over $1.1 billion of student loan debt and found over $214 million in projected savings for the professionals they’ve worked with.Meagan says, “I first started my career working at a personal financial planning firm, and a problem we consistently ran into was that with highly educated individuals, there typically came a lot of student loan debt. I continued to be surprised with the amount of debt we were starting to see, so I started diving deeper into the federal system of student loans and I found that there was a lot you can leverage. The federal system is very complicated, but we can find ways to leverage it in someone's favor.”We chat about dealing with student loan debts, as well as:Leveraging income-driven plans and forgiveness opportunitiesDetermining financial prioritiesFinding an optimal repayment plan that will allow you to achieve financial independence later in lifeWorking with a financial plannerAnd more
37:4318/11/2020
Melanie Lippman | What Your Personal Style Says About You and Your Brand

Melanie Lippman | What Your Personal Style Says About You and Your Brand

On this week’s episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, we speak with style consultant, Melanie Lippman. Melanie works with ambitious women who are letting limiting beliefs and overwhelm about clothing and personal style hold them back from who they are really meant to be. “From a young age, I realized the power of confidence and the power of just you, yourself feeling good. If you feel good and you just feel confident in the way that you look, as opposed to not loving the body you’re in right now, it can really flip the switch on any situation. That's kind of where I really realized that I loved giving women the power to feel great in their own skin,” says Melanie.We chat about looking beyond the surface level of personal style, as well as:Dressing for successBringing positivity to your internalized view of yourselfIdentifying your body type and dressing for the body you’re inEmbracing colour in your wardrobeLooking presentable and professional on videoAnd more
59:5211/11/2020