Michelle’s first birth began with an induction via an artificial rupture of membranes at 42 weeks per the recommendation of her midwives. Looking back, Michelle realizes that many factors contributed to what may have been a preventable Cesarean. Right after the first trimester of her second pregnancy and at the height of COVID, Michelle’s husband deployed. Knowing he wouldn’t be home for her birth, Michelle did everything in her power to fight for the redemptive VBAC she deserved. We are in awe of Michelle’s strength, resilience, and all of her impressive victories along the way!PLUS…as a certified professional midwife, educator, and a monitrice/labor/bereavement doula with a wealth of knowledge and experience, our guest cohost, Katrina, shares her top five tips on how to have your most empowering birth experience. Additional linksReal Food for Pregnancy by Lily NicholsKatrina’s WebsiteKatrina's InstagramHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Welcome, everybody. You are listening to The VBAC Link Podcast. This is your host, Meagan and we have a cohost today. This actually is someone I know personally too. She is one of our VBAC doulas and she’s even a midwife now. This is Katrina. Katrina: Hello. Meagan: Thank you so much for being with us today. Katrina: Thanks for having me. Meagan: It’s so fun to have you. She used to live here in Utah and then she moved far away. Not really that far, but you feel so far now. Katrina: Yes, yes. I know, I miss everybody.Meagan: But you are doing amazing things where you are at. You are in California, right?Katrina: I am, yes, here on the central coast, so San Luis Obispo county. Meagan: Perfect. Do you want to tell everyone what you are up to these days? Katrina: Sure, yeah. A lot is going on for me. I am a licensed midwife– a certified professional midwife. I’m an educator. I do placenta encapsulation. I’m a labor and bereavement doula. I have a small and intimate practice here on the central coast in Templeton, California where I offer midwifery services, clinical sneak peek, gender draw, monitrice and doula services, encapsulation, and well-woman care. Meagan: Holy smokes. Katrina: A little bit of everything, but I love it all. Meagan: I don’t know if you have enough fingers and toes for all of the things you are dipped into, but that is incredible. Holy cow. Katrina: Thank you. Meagan: We’re going to make sure everybody if you’re in her area, we’re going to make sure to have all of her information so you can find her here in the show notes. So don’t hesitate to check those out and go find her. She’s incredible, you guys. Katrina: Thank you. Meagan: No, thank you. I’m going to turn the time over to you to read a review and then we are going to jump into the incredible story that we have today. Review of the WeekKatrina: Yes, so I have a review to read today that was sent in by Elizabeth Herrera. She says, “Wishing I had Apple Podcasts right now to leave a review. I hope this does the trick. Thank you so much for creating this whole community. After my emergency Cesarean in 2019, I looked up everything possible about being able to VBAC. This led me to your wonderful podcast and blog. I devoured everything. I owe much of my knowledge to you all and to my doula. I’m happy to say that I had my VBAC on March 31st and it was a magical experience. Thank you all so much for all of the materials you have provided which helped me succeed. I hope one day to share my story on your podcast. Many, many thanks.”Meagan: Oh, I love that. We want to keep reminding you guys, we are always taking submissions for podcast recording and I am going to be recording– we are kind of backed up, so if you want to share your story on the podcast or if you want to share your story on social media which we are also doing, please email us or go to our website, thevbaclink.com/share and you can submit your story. Because we don’t have as many podcasts as we do posts on social media, feel free to post your information there and we are happy to post your story and share. Every single day, people are searching our Instagram looking for stories to read because they want to hear them. They want to read. They want all of them. I’m sure if you are preparing, you know what I’m talking about. You want it all. You want to digest it all. So if you want to read or share, head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. Michelle’s Story Meagan: Okay. Michelle from Iowa. So excited for you to share your story. As I was reading through a little bit about your summary of everything, one of the things that stood out to me and connected was the feeling of not wanting to be recovering from a Cesarean with a second child, with a little one already around. Even though you have lots of support around, not wanting to have to recover and do that alone because your husband was deployed.My husband wasn’t deployed, but he didn’t have a lot of time off and had to go right back to work so I was like, “Oh my gosh. I don’t if I’m going to recover.” I did have to recover with that because I did have a repeat Cesarean, but I was like, “Oh, I understand that want so badly to not have to have that second Cesarean to recover and raise two kiddos without that support, right?”Michelle: Yes, yes. Meagan: I connected with that so much. But okay. And I also connected with your baby turning breech a couple of times. That’s so stressful. Michelle: Yes, I was so scared. Meagan: Oh my gosh. With my VBAC, my little guy kept flipping. I’m like, “No. I am not going to have a repeat Cesarean because this guy cannot keep his head down.” Okay. We would love to turn the time over to you and share your story. Michelle: Yes. Jumping in with my first pregnancy, I thought it was a pretty healthy pregnancy. It seemed pretty normal and everything. I didn’t have any gestational diabetes. I did end up with quite a bit of fluid retention starting pretty early on, but my blood pressure is always really low, so my midwives weren’t really worried about it at all. I had hospital-based midwives for that birth. Looking back, my diet was not good at all. I remember I would read about if you have a craving, just have a little bit of it even if it’s something that’s not super healthy. So I’d have a tiny little bowl of ice cream, then I’m like, “Well, that’s not enough. I have to have a giant bowl of ice cream too.” Meagan: Uh-huh. That’s the thing is that sometimes those little tastes can be eating the whole gallon of ice cream.Michelle: Yes, and then when I stopped working at 39 weeks, I didn’t feel like cooking myself lunch, so I would just have a microwaved s’more for lunch. Just in general, I was not very good, but I thought I felt okay for being pregnant. Like I said, I didn’t have any gestational diabetes, but I was measuring a little bit big around 33 weeks, so they ended up wanting to do a growth scan. That came back just fine. He was in the 50th percentile, around that area, except for his head. His head was in the 98th percentile. I do have big heads in my family, so I wasn’t too worried about that. My midwives, most of them, weren’t too worried about that, but there was one that kept bringing it up when I would see her. She’d be like, “Oh. Maybe he’s having a hard time–” we didn’t know it was a “he.” “Maybe the baby’s having a hard time engaging because he has a big head, whereas some of the others were more encouraging. It was like, “Maybe he had a growth spurt in his head and the rest of his body will catch up later.” But this one midwife just kept mentioning that. That same midwife, I also noticed, where some of the others would spend several minutes feeling around my belly to make sure they knew what position he was in, I had one check where she felt for his head, “Oh, his head’s down,” so she just listed him as OA and didn’t check anything else. Yeah. I didn’t think too much of it at the time. I got along with her personally and everything. We’re going along and I’m trying to do everything naturally, so I just kept waiting to go into labor and it didn’t happen. We get to 42 weeks and I’m not ready to wait anymore. I’m comfortable waiting anymore. My midwives are not comfortable waiting anymore, so I went in for an induction. Because I wanted to do everything naturally, what they suggested and what I agreed to was to have them break my water to have my body go into labor on its own. The midwife that was on that day was this midwife who kept doubting that I would be able to. She never said, “I don’t think you’ll be able to push out the baby with a big head,” but she kept mentioning his big head even when I went in for the induction. So I had them break my water. I think I was probably, I want to say 2-3 centimeters before they broke it and I think I must have been 4 centimeters because she must have stretched me to 4 centimeters because she said, “You’re now in active labor,” which didn’t make sense to me. Meagan: Yeah. Michelle: I was having some contractions that morning, but I didn’t think that I was in active labor.Meagan: Nothing substantial to be in active labor. Michelle: Yeah. But yeah, she must have thought, “Oh. You’re in 4 centimeters so you’re in active labor.” Anyway, so I was walking the halls and I was in the tub. Things were going okay. I eventually ended up with the epidural and everything and Pitocin. I kept dilating. Everything was going fine. But 12 hours later– and I had multiple, multiple cervical checks. I get to about 12 hours later. I’m basically fully dilated. I’m 9.5 centimeters and I’ve got an interior lip. She keeps telling me, “He hasn’t descended at all.” And then she did say, “He descended a little bit, but it’s just the molding of the head. He’s not actually descending.” His heart started getting a little bit elevated, so they started worrying about an infection. I was a little bit confused about it at the time, but I wasn’t able to think too much of it because my epidural had fallen out. So I’d had all of this build up into transition and everything plus Pitocin without being able to feel it, and now I’m feeling everything. So I wasn’t able to think too much of it, but they just took me back for a C-section. We agreed to it, but we didn’t ask any questions. My question that to this day I have not had answered is, “Why didn’t they have me at least try to push? I was basically dilated.” But in my head at the time, I was just like, “Well, she must just know that he is stuck, so he needs to come out.” Like I said, she didn’t really believe in me. I guess she just didn’t think he was going to come out. Plus, it was probably 10:30 at that point, so I don’t know what time shift ends, but I just felt like she didn’t really try. She wasn’t in the room that much. She didn’t really give me that many suggestions, just was there and gone. Meagan: Kind of left you feeling hanging. Michelle: Mhmm, and unsupported. Yes, yes. So they took me back for the C-section and everything went pretty well. I had a pretty good recovery, but even from the day after my C-section, I was planning for a VBAC.So at my 6-week follow-up appointment, a different midwife from the same practice looked at my chart and she was like, “Yeah you can probably have a VBAC no problem with a smaller baby, just 7-8 pounds.” she looked at my chart and say I gained 55 pounds with my pregnancy and she was like, “Next pregnancy, just eat popcorn and salad and you’ll grow a smaller baby and be just fine.” Meagan: Oh! Oh. Well…Michelle: Yeah. So I started looking around after that trying to find out what my other options were for the next baby. At about 7 months postpartum, I was able to find a home birth midwife who said she would be able to see me for a VBAC. She would do nutritional counseling because she was like, “Yeah, that swelling was probably because you didn’t have enough protein in your diet.” I’m like, “Yeah, that probably makes sense.” So she said that she would see me for a VBAC whenever that would happen. She would do nutritional counseling and be able to do a home birth at least out of the hospital because I did live kind of far away from a hospital. I wasn’t necessarily comfortable doing an actual home birth.Also, about 1-2 months, somewhere in there, after our son was born, we did find out that my husband was going to be deployed. He’s with the National Guard, so we didn’t know when it was going to happen. We knew it was going to happen, but thankfully, we had quite a bit of warning. I know some people in the regular Army are living far away from family and deployments can happen at a moment’s notice. Thankfully, that was not the case for us. Since he’s National Guard, we were able to live where we live. We were able to live close to family. Meagan: Yeah. Michelle: So I’m very thankful for that. And again, we knew that the deployment was going to be coming. We had lots of notice instead of not very much notice. But that did make it very difficult because we didn’t know exactly when it was going to be. We wanted to try to plan for another baby and that made it difficult to do because we didn’t know how to time it. Obviously, things don’t always work according to plan anyway. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Michelle: But we ended up getting pregnant when my son was 19 months old. Basically how it ended up working out was I was right at the end of my first trimester when my husband left. I was thankful he was there for at least the first trimester. That helped so much. Meagan: Absolutely. Michelle: And that was the beginning of COVID, so he was actually home quite a bit. He took a few extra weeks off of his job to quarantine and stuff, but also just to be home which was so nice. But when I got pregnant, I started looking around for out-of-hospital options because that’s what I really wanted this whole time. No one in my area wanted to see me for a VBAC because I hadn’t had any vaginal births before. I didn’t have a proven pelvis. Even the home birth midwife who had said she would see me for a VBAC wanted me to have a vaginal birth in the hospital before seeing me for a VBAC later. But she did agree to see me for nutritional counseling and to be my doula in the hospital with this particular midwife practice. Meagan: Great. Michelle: Yeah, that seemed agreeable to me. I had come to the point where I believed in my body’s ability to birth a big baby, but at the same time, I was ready to commit to a much healthier diet in order to be able to hopefully grow a smaller baby so that I wouldn’t have to fight with any providers about it to have them not try to use scare tactics or anything. I read the book Real Food for Pregnancy by Lily Nichols. Such a good book. Meagan: I love that book, yes. Michelle: I felt so much better through my whole pregnancy even in the first trimester just focusing on eating protein with every snack, trying to go for more complex carbs, keep my blood sugar helped so much with morning sickness and I just felt so much better. Meagan: Good, that’s awesome. Katrina: No, I was just going to say that nutrition– we don’t really often put too much time or thought into it but it can make such a difference in terms of how we feel, how we carry our babies, and even just our mental capacity and caseload when we’re well-nourished. Meagan: Mhmm. Michelle: Yes. Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say that it’s crazy how just switching it up ever so slightly can truly impact, like you said, the way you felt and then even outcomes as well. And recovery. Katrina: Absolutely and kudos to that midwife who stepped up and helped you with that nutritional component because I do feel like oftentimes, that’s one of the pieces and elements that is left out of prenatal care.  Michelle: Yes. Katrina: We talk about, “Are you exercising?” We weigh you. We say, “Oh, you’re gaining too much or not enough,” but that piece of, “Okay, well what are you eating? What are you taking in? Is it processed foods? What are you eating?” I think sometimes, is just really overlooked even though it can have such a monumental impact on you, your body, and your baby. Michelle: Yes. And like I said, after my first, they would be like– the only nutritional guidance I got was, “Oh, you can eat popcorn and salad.” That’s just not really helpful. Meagan: No. Katrina: No, it’s not. Meagan: Not necessarily the tips that you had been wanting with you. Michelle: Yeah, so then the midwife practice that I was seeing close to where I lived– like I said, another hospital-based midwife practice. Again, I felt like I could get along with the midwives personally, but just every now and again, some less-helpful pieces were sprinkled in. For instance, I mentioned that one of the reasons I really wanted a VBAC was because we wanted to have a big family and I didn’t want the size of my family determined by the way I give birth. So she was just like, “Yeah, I understand that, but you know, you might get to four kids and not really want anymore anyway.” I’m like, “Okay, but that’s still not how I want my family size to be determined.”Katrina: Right. Michelle: I just felt like there was a lack of trust from the beginning. I just felt like I wasn’t able to make my own choices. They used a VBAC calculator to determine whether I was even eligible to be in their practice. They had a 41-week deadline where I had to have the baby or be induced. I was like, “I went to 42 weeks last time and I’m okay with doing that again. I’m all set to do that again.” But if I didn’t agree to be induced by 41 weeks, I would risk out of their care and I’d have to be seen by the OBs who are not as VBAC friendly. I also felt like I didn’t have any choices with the glucose test. I asked about alternatives and they didn’t allow any of that. I asked about if I was to agree to be induced, how would I be induced? Their preferred method of induction was the artificial rupture of membranes which I was absolutely deadset against. I feel like that’s the number one reason I ended up with a C-section with my son because I felt like–Meagan: Mmm, too early? Because then with the decels and all of that? Michelle: Yeah, the infection risk as well as my feeling that since it was so early and he was kind of high beforehand, I just felt like it had him settle in a bad position and he couldn’t get out of it. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Totally. Michelle: So I was deadset against artificial rupture of membranes, especially artificial rupture of membranes as the induction method. And then they would do Pitocin after that. But they wouldn’t do a Foley bulb or anything because apparently somehow, they said that it increases rupture risk. I was like, “That doesn’t sound right to me.” Even when I went in for my anatomy scan, because it was COVID like I said, and I had heard so many other people be like, “Yeah, I was able to do a video call with my husband because he wasn’t able to be in the room for the anatomy scan.” I thought I would be able to do the same. They were absolutely like, “No way. You can’t have any sort of video recording device.”I had a total breakdown at that point. I was like, “This is one of the very, very few parts of my pregnancy that my husband can be a part of because he’s gone. He’s never going to be able to feel her kick because she was too small before he left and she is going to be born by the time he gets back. He can’t feel her kick inside me. There’s no other part that he can be a part of.” Finally, they at least let me have him on an audio call. Meagan: Oh my gosh. I’m just over here shaking my head. Katrina: I know. Well, and how disempowering for them to pull everything away from you like that. Especially during COVID. Michelle: Yes. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. And unfortunately, we know you’re not the only one that had similar situations like this. I was so frustrated and I’m still frustrated just listening to you. Oh, I’m sorry. Michelle: So yeah. Again, just a lot of things where I just felt like I didn’t have choices and didn’t have a lot of trust. Finally, my breaking point was when I got to my glucose test. I felt great afterward. I was just like, “I’m so excited to get my results. I feel good that I passed. I want to get my results and get on with my life and not worry about it anymore.” I waited for the call with my results and I didn’t get one. It just kept not coming and finally, I don’t remember if it was a day later. It was far after I was supposed to get my results. I finally got a call and they were like, “Our lab lost your sample. We weren’t able to test it.” Katrina: Oh no. Michelle: I had to go back in and do a second one-hour glucose test and I felt horrible afterward. I had such a bad headache, heartburn, and stomachache. You name it. I got my results back and it was pretty high. I was like, “I don’t even trust that this is actually my result because they lost my sample last time.” That’s when I realized that I just didn’t trust this practice. I know it’s a good practice. I even heard a story on this podcast from someone who went to the same practice and had a great experience. It’s a good practice. It just, in my situation, I didn’t feel like I had the choices that I wanted. Meagan: Yeah. Well, just when you hear, “Oh, this VBAC-supportive provider was super amazing,” that’s great for them, but it may not be the right supportive provider for you. Katrina: Right. Meagan: It’s the same thing with location and everything like that. Even though there are some people who have had amazing experiences, that doesn’t mean that it’s the right place or you are feeling the support that someone else may have felt. Michelle: Yeah. So at that point when I finally realized that I don’t trust this practice, I called the midwife who was going to be my doula and she was like, “Yeah, I’ve been kind of holding onto this, but if you feel like you don’t trust them, maybe you should just go to Iowa City.” I had been thinking that too, so I was like, “Yeah. I think it’s time.” So I switched to Iowa City, but because she is a home birth midwife as well, she wasn’t able to make the trip with me because she had her own clients for home birth. So I had to find a new doula. I switched practices around 29 weeks, so then I was 31, 32, 33 weeks looking for a doula and all of the doulas in my area were booked. I finally found one and even though I was traveling to Iowa City which is about a 2-hour drive for me, I wanted to choose one from my own area just in case something happened. I was due in December so if there was a snowstorm or if I was having a really fast labor and I couldn’t make it all the way, I still wanted to have my doula with me. I chose one from my own area. I was finally able to find one, and then now that I was traveling for two hours, I’m like, “There’s no way that I’m going to take a 3-hour glucose test because that’s now a 7-hour ordeal trying to drive two hours while starving and then three hours there, then two hours back while having a glucose hangover.” I just decided that I was going to test my glucose every day. I thought at first that they were going to let me do it just for a week, but then they said that since my one-hour test was already elevated, they wanted me to do it for the rest of my pregnancy. I’m like, “You know what? That is still worth it.” I started doing the 4-hour round trip every two weeks and then every week. It was a lot, but it was totally worth the peace of mind just knowing that if for whatever reason I do end up with a C-section, it’s going to be because I actually needed it and not because I was scared into it, because they didn’t have enough patience or anything like that. And plus, I was able to listen to The VBAC Link podcast on the way. That was my companion for the drive there. I started doing all of the things for prep– eating the dates, drinking the tea, doing the walks, and going to the chiropractor. Apparently, I created too much space for my baby because then at 37 weeks, I found out that my baby was breech.  That particular day, my midwife made it a little bit scarier like, “Oh, you can try the ECV. These are the things that you can do, but if your baby’s breech, then you’re going to have to have a C-section.” That was a stressful day and a long drive home. That same day, I found out that I had been exposed to COVID. I ended up testing positive for that. I didn’t end up having any symptoms beyond regular pregnancy symptoms. My nose was already stuffy every day. I was tired because I was 37-38 weeks pregnant trying to chase around a 2-year-old by myself, but everyone thought I was going to die. It was just like, “I’m fine. Just leave me alone.” But within the next couple of days, I was doing the Miles Circuit every night. One night I fell asleep doing it and when I woke up, everything was different. All of her movements were different. I was like, “All right. She’s head down again. We can keep going along.”We were able to confirm at my next appointment that she was, in fact, head down. I finished my quarantine. I was able to start going back to the chiropractor. I got to 40 weeks and my little gymnast keeps doing flips and she was breech again. Meagan: Oh, so stressful. Katrina: Yes. Michelle: Yes, but a little bit less stressful this time just because my midwife was so much calmer about it. She was like, “If baby is still flipping around at this point, she can do it again.” That helped so much just having her calm presence with the whole thing. We went ahead and scheduled the ECV just in case. She was like, “Well, if we have the ECV and it’s successful, we will just go ahead and induce you because you are already 40 weeks, and that way she doesn’t have a chance to come out of your pelvis and flip again.”I was able to flip her again with the Miles Circuit. At that point, I started belly binding because I think I had a pendulous belly probably, looking back. I just think that my uterus was a little tipped forward so she couldn’t settle in my pelvis and had all of that room to be free-floating and flipping around. So then we get to 40 weeks and 6 days. I started feeling some contractions. It was 12:30 in the afternoon. I was like, “This feels a little bit different.” I hadn’t had any Braxton Hicks contractions that would be a little bit uncomfortable. Mostly, it was just tightening like, “Hmm. This one actually is a little bit uncomfortable.” But it didn’t really feel like too much yet so I just went about my day. I was scared to lie down because I didn’t want it to stop. I didn’t want to rest. My mom came in that evening because I was supposed to have an appointment the next morning, but the contractions kept going. Toward the evening, I finally started contacting my doula, the hospital, and then my sister-in-law who was going to drive me to the hospital. I tried doing some resting. I took a bath and then I was able to put my son to bed as an only child for the last time. I was glad that I was able to do that. Just one last moment of normalcy. Yeah, so we made the 2-hour drive. We made it to the hospital at about midnight. I was about 4 centimeters. They were able to confirm on the ultrasound that she was head down still. I did make a point to wear my own gown for laboring because I didn’t want to get into that patient mentality. One thing I did not do that I wish I would have is I did not wear my belly binder, so I think she was still kind of floating around a little bit. I got to my room. They were able to have me on the wireless monitor so I could keep moving around. My belly was so round that they had a hard time keeping it on her. This whole time, I still didn’t really even feel like I was fully in labor. I was able to have a conversation and I definitely wouldn’t have gone yet if I didn’t have a 2-hour drive. My doula kept encouraging me to rest which I did not want to do. I wanted to be up and moving during the contractions. I felt like if I was on the bed and a contraction hit, then I couldn’t get up to move and it just made it so much worse. Probably at 5:30-6:00 in the morning, she fell off the monitor which I didn’t think too much of. The nurse came in to adjust it. She’s moving it all around and she finally finds the heartbeat way up high on my abdomen which is where they had always found her heartbeat when she was breech. Meagan: I was going to say, I bet your heart was thinking, “Breech!”Michelle: Yeah, I was in total panic. I was like, yeah. I was panicking. I couldn’t stay calm during contractions. I couldn’t relax during contractions anymore. I was just in total panic. My doula and my nurse and everything kept trying to keep me calm. I was just like, “Just let me panic for a minute. This is scary. I don’t want to be calm right now.” Meagan: Yeah. That’s a valid feeling. It’s okay to get it out and process it versus having to hold it in and deal with it until later. Just let it be for a second. Michelle: Yeah. It was around 7:00 a.m. when they made it in. The ultrasound confirmed that she was still head down. My thought now was probably that she was descending into my pelvis and where they were able to find it changed. She was still head down, so we were good to go. At that point, I still couldn’t calm down. I was still in that panic mode. I wasn’t able to cope anymore. So I was like, “As long as she comes out vaginally, I don’t care. I wanted to go all-natural, but now I don’t care. Just give me the epidural. Get her out.” My doula was like, “Yeah, you can have the epidural if you want, but let’s try the shower first.” The shower was awesome. Instant relief. Immediately, I was like, “I can think clearly again. I can relax during contractions.” But then almost immediately after that, I started wanting to push. I told my doula, I was like, “I feel like I’m going to push her out really fast.” My doula was like, “Well, you still will need to probably pace yourself. The first time pushing, it’s probably going to be a while.”I got out of the shower. She encouraged me to labor down on the toilet. That’s when I started actively, involuntarily pushing. My water broke almost right away and it was kind of funny because I immediately hopped off of the toilet. I thought I had accidentally pushed out my baby in the toilet, but it was just my water breaking.” Meagan: It’s crazy how sometimes, that water right? Michelle: Yeah. Meagan: We never know how it’s going to happen or what it’s going to feel like, Michelle: Yeah, and again, it hadn’t happened naturally for my first either. I wasn’t ready for it even though I had been in labor for 19 hours. I just wasn’t ready for it. But yeah. They got me off the toilet. They could see, obviously, that I was pushing so they were like, “We’d better go check and see if you’re complete.” They tried to get me back to the bed and someone told me that they wanted me on my back for a cervical check. I wanted to go on the bed and go on my hands and knees, but I was told that I had to get on my back. I made it on the bed. I made it on my side and I was like, “I’m not moving anymore. I’m done. I’m not moving anywhere.” So then I was complete. They were letting me push. I was like, “Well, that’s good because there is no way I’m going to be able to stop even if you tell me that I can’t.”Katrina: Yeah, once your body takes over control, that’s it. Michelle: Yeah. I felt really good having my legs closed trying to push, but they had me keep opening my legs. In retrospect, I can’t help but wonder if they would have let me have my knees together and my feel apart if that would have felt better for me, but that’s not what happened. The funny thing is what I remember most is what I could hear throughout this whole thing. When they were trying to open my legs for me or getting things ready and I didn’t like it, I just remember saying, “No, no, no.” I just remember thinking even at that moment, I just feel like I sounded like my son. I feel like I sounded like my two-year-old, but that was all I could say at the time. And then I just remember the sound of myself grunting while I was pushing. I remember the sound of everyone in the room really loudly saying, “Yes, yes, yes! Push!” They weren’t coaching, but really loudly encouraging. Behind all of that, what I really remember and what really stands out to me is that I was able to have my husband on FaceTime and his voice being the calm voice, just the calm, steady encouragement. That was so helpful. Yeah, that’s what I remember most, and being on my side. What I did really like about it was being able to completely and totally relax my whole body in between contractions. If I had been on my hands and knees, I would still have to hold myself up. But being on my side was total rest during contractions which was really nice. Meagan: Really lovely, I’m sure. Michelle: Yeah. So then she was born at 8:14 a.m., so I had been in the hospital for 8 hours. She was born OP. I only pushed for 11 minutes. Meagan: Whew!Katrina: Wow, that’s amazing. Michelle: Yeah. My first thought is, “Yeah, I probably could have–” She was a lot smaller than my son, but if he was in a good position and she was OP. If I could push her out in 11 minutes, I probably could have pushed him out if he had been in a good position. To everyone who doubted me, I’m pretty sure I could have done that. But I was able to announce the gender because we didn’t know beforehand, so I got to do that. I got to cut the cord which was great and very special. I did end up having a third degree tear and definitely some sacral bruising which makes sense because she came out really fast and she was OP. She was just over 2.5 pounds smaller than her brother. It kind of makes sense where she got all of that extra room to be flipping around. But even with some of the bigger injuries of the third-degree tear, I still felt like what most people describe as a second-degree tear, so I had a pretty easy recovery. It was still easier than a C-section even though I had an easy recovery from my C-section. I will say that I did also have a little bit of a lack of immediate connection just being completely unmedicated and not quite expecting her to come that fast. My first thought when they pulled her out and put her on me was, “Where did this baby come from? This is not my baby.” But of course, it was because no one else brought a baby in from another room. This is my baby that I just pushed out. Meagan: Just magically appeared right here. “I did do something before this.” That’s so cute. Michelle: But yeah, she was the first vaginal birth out of all the grandkids on both sides of the family. They’ve all been born by C-sections for various reasons. Meagan: Oh, really? Michelle: Yeah.Meagan: Interesting. Michelle: My parents have six kids. The first two were born vaginally, but then they had some pretty adverse birth injuries, so they had her have C-sections for the last four of us, so on my side of the family, she is the first baby born vaginally in 40 years. Katrina: Whoa. Michelle: So that was pretty cool being able to break the traditions and set my own standards and goalposts. Meagan: Yeah. Katrina: Yeah. Meagan: That’s fun, so what did everybody think when you were like, “Hey, I want to go for this VBAC” in your family?Michelle: Well, my mom definitely understood but didn’t understand. I mean, for the most part, my family was pretty supportive. My husband was very supportive. His mom has eight kids. They were all natural. The last one was a home birth, so they are all on board with all-natural. So yeah. They were supportive for the most part. Like I said, my mom understood but didn’t understand. She didn’t understand not wanting to be induced.Meagan: Didn’t fully understand. Michelle: Yeah, she didn’t understand me wanting to make my own decisions rather than just following whatever the provider says. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense. Well, congratulations. Michelle: Thank you. Katrina: Yeah. Michelle: It’s been a little while now. She’ll be two in December and it’s great too because I never was able to decide where to start on writing down a birth story or anything, so it’s nice being able to fully get it out all in order and everything. Meagan: Mhmm, I love it. Awesome. Well, Ms. Katrina has a little bit of our end-of-topic. You know how at the end of episodes, we like to share an extra topic? I’m so excited to hear what she is going to bring to you. Katrina’s 5 TipsKatrina: Yes, yeah. I have a few tips that I’d like to share and then I have a little bit of a piece of home birth after Cesarean that I wanted to share that I attended. The beliefs that you hold in the abilities of your mind and your body are hugely influential in preparing for your birth. The following are some tips that I’ve put together to support an empowering birth experience. The first is to cultivate your physical, mental, and spiritual strength, stamina, and endurance. The second is to love yourself. Be mindful of your nutrition and your hydration. Manage your stress. Make yourself a priority when it comes to self-care in both emotional and physical elements and prioritize your rest and sleep. Number three: build the best birth team you can and one that will support you in all components of your pregnancy, labor, birth, and postpartum periods including emotional, mental, and physical support. Don’t forget that this birth team works for you and you can replace team members at any point if they no longer align with your values and your goals. Number four: arm your toolbelt with knowledge. Practice physical positioning and utilization of your comfort tools. And lastly, number five: move, move, move. Your mind, body, and baby need movement and motion throughout your pregnancy, labor, birth, and beyond. In closing, I just wanted to share that I trust birth fully. I believe in personal autonomy, informed decision-making and consent, and birth options for all birthing people. I wanted to share– like I said earlier, I had the honor and privilege of attending a beautiful home birth after a Cesarean just over a year ago. This family was amazingly strong and determined. They birthed their baby in the comfort of their home at 42 weeks on the dot and had a beautiful baby boy who was 11 pounds and 15 ounces. Meagan: Whew! I love it. That just gave me chills because it’s like, yes. This is possible. This is possible. Katrina: It is. It’s possible. Women and birthing people are amazing and incredible. I truly believe following your intuition and seeking the support that you feel that you need and desire is just monumental in terms of the entire birth experience. Meagan: It goes back to even proven pelvis and all of that, right? Why, why, why do we have to prove ourselves? Why do we have to do that? Because I feel like, when someone says, “I can’t do this because you have to prove to me,” and then if we don’t “prove” in the way that they see it, then we feel like we failed. This failure word, this word fail comes up way too often and I don’t like it. I don’t like it. Katrina: Right, and ultimately, everyone should have the opportunity to have a trial of labor. There’s no reason to not let people do that. Meagan: Absolutely. I agree. Absolutely. I love it. Thank you both for being with me today. So happy that you were both with me. Katrina: Thank you and congratulations, Michelle. I love your story. Michelle: Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me on. It’s an honor to be able to finally share my story. It’s great to be on after listening throughout my pregnancy and everything. Meagan: Yes, yes. I love it. Well, thank you both for your time, and again, congratulations, Michelle. Katrina, I’m blown away by all of the amazing things that you are doing. You always have been amazing, but it’s like you just keep adding to this amazing resume. I’m so happy for you. Katrina: Thank you. Thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

You will NOT want to miss today’s episode!With her first pregnancy, Taylor was committed to having an unmedicated, vaginal birth. But after a 5-day induction at 37 weeks due to cholestasis and no cervical change or dilation, she knew it was time to consent to a C-section. Taylor knew she would fight for her VBAC even before she became pregnant again. 18 hours after her water broke, Taylor was barely 1 centimeter dilated. Labor continued for hours with transition-like symptoms. She knew she was close. Taylor agreed to a cervical check. She was 2 centimeters dilated. Find out how Taylor’s resilience helped her overcome that HUGE discouragement we feel when labor isn’t progressing the way we think it is.Additional linksHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Welcome, everybody. You are listening to The VBAC Link podcast. This is your host, Meagan. Guys, I am so excited about this story today. This is Taylor.Taylor, we are so excited to have you on today. I am going to share a little bit about our course. Normally, we dive into reviews before we start the story, but I want to share a little bit more about our course. I wanted to let you guys know. We have a VBAC Prep Course. This prep course is for anybody wanting to explore their options for birth after Cesarean. You may or may not know if VBAC is right for you. This course is going to help you learn the pros and the cons of both VBAC and repeat Cesarean. We are going to dive into the history. We are going to give you tools. We are going to give you things to help you take with you to your provider to help establish a better relationship and help find out if that provider truly is supportive of you. Of course, there are some more stories in there and so much more information. This course is created for any birthing parent looking to know their options. And also, any birth worker wanting to expand their knowledge of VBAC and the history of VBAC and how to support future clients, especially if you are a doula on VBAC. Taylor is a labor and delivery nurse which is super exciting so we are going to talk a little bit more about that. I want to ask her some questions but even labor and delivery nurses, midwives, and birth workers, this course is going to be great for you. Learn more about our course at thevbaclink.com.Taylor’s StoryMeagan: Okay, Taylor. I cannot wait for you to share your story. I was telling you in the beginning, when I saw your face pop up on our Zoom when we were getting ready to record, I just knew exactly who you were from your image. I just remember seeing it and having all of the feels so I can’t wait to hear from you. Right from your voice, so thank you so much for being here with us today. Taylor: Yes, thank you for having me. I am so excited. Meagan: Seriously, I’m so excited. I would love to turn the time over to you. Share away. Share this wonderful story with the world.Taylor: Okay well, gosh. There are so many things. My first pregnancy was in 2020. July 2020 was when I had my first baby. That pregnancy was very uneventful. It was great. I didn’t have any issues. I strongly desired an unmedicated, vaginal birth. I got my husband to read The Bradley Method twice. Yeah. I just was chugging along. I actually wasn’t working labor and delivery yet. I was working in the mother/baby unit. That will kind of come into play later because I didn’t know what I didn’t know at the time. So just chugging along and then I got to about 36 weeks and I just felt like my feet were really itchy at night. I ended up telling a friend and she said that in her first pregnancy, that happened to her and she ended up having cholestasis. Meagan: Mhmm. I was going to say, cholestasis. Taylor: Yes, and so of course, I was just like, “Oh wow.” I went down the Google hole and I was like, “Oh, I have to tell my doctor. This sounds so scary.” I know y’all have talked about cholestasis on your podcast before, but basically, it’s a random issue with your liver during pregnancy. The worst-case result is a stillbirth or arrhythmias in the baby and things like that. My mind was just going straight to that. I told my doctor and she was of course like, “Oh yeah. We need to draw some labs.” They ended up drawing some labs and sent me on my way. They take about a week to come back, so I just was going on with life. Meagan: Which is so crazy to me. Can I just say that? This is a potentially serious thing and it takes a week. Taylor: Right, yep. So yeah. She gave me some medicine that was supposed to help with the itching and things like that. Meagan: I think it helps lower your liver enzyme levels right? Taylor: Yeah. It really is supposed to slow things down. I took it and I didn’t really feel like it helped, but I took it. Of course, I wanted the best thing for my baby. So I get to a little over 37 weeks at this point. I think I was 37 + 3. I was just at home. We had this really bad storm. My husband was normally off this day. It was a Monday. He was working late. The power went out. After the storm, I went outside to try and send him a text. He was calling me and said, “Hey. Have you talked to (one of my best friends who works at the hospital with me)? She’s been calling me. She’s been trying to get a hold of you.”I just was like, “No. I haven’t had service. We lost power so the Wi-Fi went out.” So I called her and she was at work. She just said, “Taylor. The doctor’s been trying to call you. Your labs came back and you have cholestasis. They want you to come in tonight.” I was just like, “What? What? Hold on.” You know, I just was—Meagan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You’ve got to wrap your mind around it for a sec. Taylor: Yeah. I could tell that she was really sad to be the one to call me because she knew that I just really wanted this Bradley Method birth. So my husband came home and I just was like, “No. This is not what I wanted at all. Ugh.” I just was so sad. We ended up going in, of course, because I thought that was my only– they didn’t give me any other options. I just thought, “Okay, well I need to do what they say.”So I went in and yeah. I was a little over 37 weeks. They got me admitted. I ended up having a Cervadil that night and I was closed by the way. My cervix was closed, thick, and high. So I had a Cervadil just thinking, “Oh great. I’m going to have my baby probably tomorrow.” The next day rolls around. It’s still closed, thick, and high. I had another Cervadil which, if anyone has not had a Cervadil, it’s like a sandpaper tampon. It is horrible. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Taylor: It’s really horrible. So I had a second one with those and by the end of that day, still closed. I went in Monday night and between Monday night and Friday, I had had three Cervadils, Cytotec orally and vaginally, and a whole day of Pitocin. They tried to put a Cook Catheter through because, at some point, the furthest I got was a fingertip basically. The midwife was really, she was just trying so hard because I worked there and she knew I really wanted a vaginal delivery. So she was actually really awesome. But they tried to put a Cook catheter through my fingertip cervix. It was horrible. And yeah. So Friday morning rolls around and they came in. They were just like, “Yeah. There is really nothing else we can do at this point. I don’t know why nothing is working.” The doctors had already been trying to have a C-section on Wednesday and this was Friday. I just remember feeling so exhausted, so tired, and honestly, just in so much pain from all of the things. I looked at my husband and I was just like, “I guess I just know. I know that I’m going to have to have a C-section.” They were just like, “Yeah. That’s kind of your only option.” I ended up asking, “Can I go home? Can I go to antepartum? Can I just have some more time?” They just said, “No. We’ve done so much. You have cholestasis already. If it was going to work, it probably would have worked already.”I ended up having a pretty good C-section. It wasn’t bad. It wasn’t rushed. Nothing was wrong with my baby. He wasn’t in distress or anything. We actually didn’t know it was a he. We didn’t find out what he was until he was born. But yeah, I just was pretty devastated. My husband was pretty devastated for me. We both were crying in the labor room all day until my C-section and then we just came to terms with it and it was fine. I had my C-section. I had my healthy little baby boy, Mason. And yeah. I had an easy recovery. I went home and I just knew that I was never going to have another C-section. That was my mindset when I went home because even though it was smooth and nothing was an emergency or anything, I just felt pretty devastated. I just remember even months after he was born, I would just cry in the shower thinking about it. I was like, “Why am I feeling like this?” I just never knew that your birth experience was just– now I know. It’s just truly one of the most important things that you’ll ever go through in life. Yeah. So I was determined that if I was going to get pregnant again, I was going to have my VBAC. So fast forward, my little Mason turned one. That was in July and I ended up finding out I was pregnant in September, so he was a little over one. I was ready. I was going to do all of my research and yeah. I started reading all of these books on VBACs. I went to the doctor and I knew– at this point, I was a labor and delivery nurse. My hospital is actually a community hospital and we don’t have in-house anesthesia, so we technically don’t do VBACs there. I went to see my doctor for my new appointment. She said, “Okay, well, we can put you down for a repeat C-section since you’ve had one.” I said, “No. I really want to have a VBAC.” She was great. She said, “Okay well, we, unfortunately, don’t do them here. The hospital that does is 2 hours away.” I said, “Okay,” because I already knew that. I knew she was going to say that. I was like, “ I am doing this.” Of course, then comes the VBAC calculator. The biggest thing that everyone kept saying was, “Well, your cervix never dilated with your first pregnancy, so that’s kind of a concern. We don’t know why that happened.” But anyways, I just knew that I still had a chance. They did the VBAC calculator, and yeah. I just planned on having my VBAC. I went through my pregnancy and all of my appointments just knowing that that was what I wanted. I found The VBAC Link podcast and listened to y’all every day. Meagan: Aww. Taylor: Yeah. I listened to VBAC birth stories. Yeah. It was just the best. I was listening to all of those and I remember I was 20-something weeks pregnant and I was at work one day. Someone I worked with was just like, “You know, I am totally for VBACs. I think they’re awesome, but I just don’t know if you’re a good candidate. There was a reason why you never dilated. I just remember I went in the bathroom and I just cried. I was devastated. She was not mean at all. It was like an honest conversation, but I texted my friend who had a VBAC after two C-sections. She ended up being my doula with my VBAC. I will tell you more about her. But I texted her and I was just so devastated. She was like, “Taylor. That is just not even true. You can do this.” I went forward and later in pregnancy, I went to the chiropractor, ate all of the dates, and drank the red raspberry leaf tea. I walked every day. I was chasing my toddler. I felt like I was healthier during this pregnancy, and yeah. I ended up being referred to that hospital that is two hours away when I was at 36 weeks. It’s a big teaching hospital, and so of course, they were like, “We prefer probably to be induced around 39 weeks.” I said, “Nope. I am not going to be induced. I don’t want that.”“Okay, well, we definitely want you to deliver by the time you are at 40 weeks.” I said, “Nope”. Meagan: “Thanks, but no thanks.”Taylor: I said, “Nope. I don’t want to be induced.” The doctor was just like, “Okay. Well, then what we will do is every week we will check your cervix and do a membrane sweep and see if we can get things moving. After 40 weeks, you’ll just have to come back for NSTs and things.” I said, “Nope.” I was like–Meagan: Way to advocate for yourself. Taylor: Yes. I, oh my gosh. That was just comical looking back. In the moment though, it was really scary because it is scary to tell a doctor, “No,” especially because we just assume that they know everything. Even being a labor and delivery nurse, sometimes it’s hard for me and I have to advocate for my patients and things. In the moment, it was scary, but now, I’m just so glad I did. I ended up having an appointment at 39 weeks at my local OB here. She was like, “Can I just check you, and maybe can I do a sweep?” I was just like, “Okay,” but telling myself, “Okay. This is not going to change anything whether I’m closed.” I just knew that it could be a trigger for me because the whole week of being induced with my son, everyone was just like, “Oh, you’re still closed. You’re still closed. Closed, closed, closed.” This time, I was like, “Okay. I am not going to let it be a trigger. It doesn’t mean anything.” I let her check me and of course, I was closed. But honestly, it didn’t bother me. Of course, the doctor was like, “We’ll have to talk to the other hospital and they’re probably going to want you to be induced. If you’re not dilated by 40 weeks, then I feel like they’re going to want you to have a C-section.” I just left there and I was really just like, “Seriously, no. No. I have come so far,” because I had my other baby so early. It ended up being 38 weeks because I was there for so long. I was like, “No.” I did not schedule another appointment. I was like, “I am not going back until I have my baby,” which probably was not that smart, but I just knew I was going to pay attention to my body, pay attention to baby moving, and if I went too far past, I definitely would make an appointment, but I was like, “I’m not right now. I can’t think about that because I don’t want them to check me again. I don’t want to have a weak moment and be induced.” So anyways, I went on my way. The day before my due date, I ended up drinking some midwife’s brew castor oil. I drank that the day before my due date and I ended up within a couple of hours just having intense contractions every 1-3 minutes. This lasted for a few hours. My husband was like, “Okay. Is this labor? Do we need to go?” Because we have a two-hour drive. He ended up calling my friend, Cami, who was going to go as my doula. She, like I said, had a VBAC herself at the same hospital two hours away. So he calls Cami. She comes over and I was just really into these contractions. She said, “Yeah. We have a long drive. Let’s just go.” These contractions continued the whole way down there. We get there. At this point, it had been past midnight, so I’m 40 weeks on the dot. They checked me and I was closed. Closed, thick, and high. Meagan: Oh, I bet that was hard. Taylor: Yeah, it was. I had actually had some bloody show on the way there, so I just knew I was going to be dilated. Meagan: Yeah. Taylor: I was like, “Okay, I am not dilated. This isn’t real. This is just from the castor oil. I’m going home.” The resident was just like, “Oh yeah. I don’t think that’s going to happen. You’re 40 weeks. You have a previous uterine scar and I just don’t think we can discharge you.” I just said, “Yes, you can actually.”Meagan: “I don’t think we can discharge you.” Huh. “Hello, I’m leaving.” Taylor: I just remember that my husband was like, “No, no, no,” because we had already been through so much with my first birth, and so I was like, “Yeah. Actually, can you go talk to someone else? Your attending or someone? I’m leaving. I know if I sleep, my contractions will stop. I’m not worried. I know all of the risks.” They tried to tell me the risks so many times. I was like, “Yeah. I know all of the risks and I still want to go home.”Anyways, they came back in, and actually, they made me sign out AMA. I was like, “Oh my gosh. I’m a nurse and I’m signing out against medical advice.” Meagan: AMA. So against medical advice is AMA, everybody. They’ll say scary things like, “If you sign this AMA, you might not be welcomed back,” or “If you sign this AMA, insurance won’t cover you when you do come back,” or “If you sign this AMA, no one is going to help you.” They scare you.Taylor: Yes. Yep, definitely. And honestly, if I hadn’t just listened to so many people’s birth stories and done so much research and I didn’t know everything I knew, I probably would have been scared into staying which makes me sad for a lot of people because I know I would not have had my baby vaginally if I would have stayed. So I signed out AMA. I went home, slept the whole car ride home and sure enough, my contractions stopped. I was 40 weeks at this point and slept most of the day. I woke up in the middle of the night with these intense-seeming, regular contractions. I was like, “Oh wow. Maybe it’s starting for real.” It happened for a couple of hours and ended up stopping. I was like, “Oh wow. Okay. Well, I guess that wasn’t real.” So fast forward a few more days and that happened every night. It was horrible. I had some nice prodromal labor. Yeah. It was horrible because I just felt like, “Is labor ever actually going to start? What in the world? What is this?” I just remember my friend, Cami, who was my doula, she was just like, “Taylor, with every contraction, your body is just getting ready. Okay? It’s doing what it’s supposed to do. Don’t be discouraged. You can do it.” She was just so encouraging. I just have to stop and say that a good doula is so key. Oh my gosh. I never even realized. Even as a labor and delivery nurse, I never realized how important. Meagan: It’s so true. It’s so true, yeah. Taylor: Yes, yes. My husband was so great too. He was awesome. It was the day before I was 41 weeks, so I was 40 + 6. It was my birthday, so my husband and I just went to a quick dinner out and we ended up stopping at the grocery store. I kind of had some random contractions that afternoon every 15 minutes, but again, I had this prodromal labor for a week, so I didn’t believe anything was real. We go to the grocery store after dinner and I felt just like, “Maybe I peed my pants.” I went to the bathroom and I was like, “Maybe I did,” because there wasn’t much of anything. I was like, “Caleb, I think maybe I accidentally peed my pants or something. I don’t know, but we need to go home.” We go home and I just laid down. When I stood up, I felt a big gush. I was like, “No. No, my water’s not breaking right now,” because I definitely was not in labor and that was kind of my worst nightmare was my water breaking and not being in labor. Yeah. I definitely knew my water broke. I was like, “Okay. I still feel baby moving. Everything feels fine. I am laying down. I’m just going to try to wait it out and see if maybe contractions will start.” I texted Cami and told her, “I think my water broke, but I’m going to lay down and see if maybe some contractions will start up.” They did. They ended up being every 4-5 minutes for two hours, but I ended up noticing some meconium in my fluid. I just knew, “Okay. Well, I guess we do have a two-hour drive.” I wanted to just stay home so badly just because of the last time driving down there and still being closed. But then I just knew, “Okay. There’s meconium and I have been contracting for about two hours. Maybe we’ll just go head down.” On the way down there in the drive, I could totally tell that the contractions were spacing out. I just kept trying not to think about it. I had my AirPods in. I was just listening to music trying to be comfortable, trying just to relax as much as possible. We get down to the hospital and get checked in. Basically, they remembered me from the week before. It was actually the same nurse. Meagan: They remembered me.Taylor: They did. They remembered me and basically, instead of a triage room, they took me straight to a labor room. They were not going to let me go home this time which, of course, I didn’t. I go in and there were just so many doctors because like I said, it is a teaching hospital. There were so many people in the room. They were just telling me all of the risks again of having a uterine scar and, “Are you sure you don’t want a C-section?” I was just like, “No. I don’t want one. I’ve said this so many times.”“Okay. Well–” And I was super uncomfortable because all of these people were there. Bright lights were on and at this point, no contractions whatsoever. Of course, they checked me and I was closed. I was just like, “No. This is not real. This is my worst nightmare. I can’t believe this is happening,” because immediately–Meagan: So frustrating. Taylor: Yeah. Immediately, it was, “Okay. Well, you need to sign this form saying you don’t want a C-section and then we really want to start Pitocin.” I just said, “Yeah, no. I just need everyone to please leave me alone for a little bit. Can I just be alone in here?” I was so overwhelmed and it was the middle of the night. They were like, “Uhh, sure. We don’t have much time because your water has been broken for a few hours and you’re not having any contractions, so just know that we are going to come back and talk to you about Pitocin.” I said, “Okay. That’s fine. I just, please, want to be left alone. I just want to sleep.” So we ended up being able to sleep for a couple of hours. The next morning came around because it was already 5:00 a.m. when we were there. I wake up and the day shift nurse comes on. She said, “Yeah, they’re going to want to come in and talk to you.” I said, “Okay. I just want one person coming in.” I was determined because I tend to be a people pleaser and so I was just like, “No. I am not going to do that again because last night was so uncomfortable with all of those people here. Labor totally sucked. I just want one doctor coming in.” She said, “Okay.” A couple of hours later, a midwife walks in. I’m sure they were like, “This girl’s crazy. Who wants her?” A midwife walked in and she was just so awesome and so calm. She asked me what I wanted. I said, “I just really don’t want Pitocin. I want a VBAC so badly.” She was like, “Okay” and basically just said, “Well, how about you pump for a little bit, try and do some nipple stimulation to get some contractions started.” She’s like, “I really wish that I could tell you to take some midwife’s brew.” I guess she had worked at a birth center for 12 years before this teaching hospital. I said, “I have all of the ingredients. Don’t worry.” She said, “Okay. Well, if you take it, don’t tell me. It could take a few hours, so I’m just going to leave you alone for a while and we’ll see if your contractions start up.” I was just so thankful. That just kept the momentum going because I kind of felt at a loss before that like, “Oh, I’m going to have to have Pitocin.” Anyways, I take the midwife’s brew, pump, and that afternoon, it was a few hours later, and I did start having contractions. At this point, it was 18 hours after my water had broken, so yeah. I started having contractions and the midwife went off. A new doctor came on and they checked me and I was 1. I was 1 centimeter. I was just like, “Oh my gosh. My cervix dilated. Oh my gosh. I can’t believe this is happening.” Even though I was just 1, I remember high-fiving the resident. I was like, “Yes. This is happening.” Little did I know, I still had a long way to go. But yeah. So they were like, “All right. We really want to start Pitocin. You’re just really not progressing very much, but 1 is good. But we want to start Pit.” I said, “Okay. I want the absolute lowest dose and I want it as low as you can go basically.” They said, “Okay. We can do that. We’ll start low.” My night shift nurse was amazing. They started Pitocin. Literally, after an hour, they had to shut it off. I just started contracting so much. It was really intense. It was, I mean, every two minutes at least. Every 1-2 minutes. They had to shut it off because I was contracting too much. I was in and out of the shower, just throwing up. It felt like I was in transition. It was that intense for hours. I think maybe 4 hours of just sleeping between contractions, again, up to the shower, just walking around the room, not being able to focus on anything but the contractions, my husband and my doula were like, “Man, we really feel like she’s been acting like transition for hours. Maybe, Taylor, do you want to be re-checked?”So at 2:00 a.m., they came back in and I was 2. After all of that, legitimately thought the baby was coming and I was 2. The doctor was actually very happy about that. She was like, “You’re 2. That’s awesome.” I just really actually loved this doctor that was on. But of course, my husband, my doula, and I were like, “Seriously? A 2?” It just felt like all of the air was sucked out of the room because we were all exhausted and I just truly didn’t know what I was going to do. They really wanted to start the Pitocin back up because they were like, “Maybe these contractions just aren’t strong enough.” I was like, “I can’t. I just don’t think I can do this plus more Pitocin. This is just so intense.” So they were talking to me. I’m still having these really intense contractions while we are talking. They leave the room. My husband goes out because he just wants to know how he can continue to be positive for me because he basically just wanted to know if something was wrong. So he leaves the room. My doula and I, I was just telling her. I was like, “Is something wrong with me?” I’m crying and I’m just like, “Maybe my body wasn’t meant for this. Maybe I really can’t do it.” We all were sitting there and she was just trying to be encouraging. The doctor comes back in and she was like, “Taylor, I just really think you need to rest.” Because at this point, I did not have any pain medicine. I didn’t have an epidural. I was still determined that I was going to have my unmedicated birth. I ended up going back and forth for a while. “No, I don’t want an epidural.” I agreed to some pain medicine. I got to sleep for a little bit. I did end up getting an epidural around 5:30 in the morning and we all got to sleep for a little while. I woke up the next day. My day shift nurse came on and she was like, “Okay. We are going to change your position. We are going to get on this. We are going to have a baby.” I still hadn’t had much Pitocin because I was still just contracting so much on my own. My nurse was just amazing. We did a whole circuit of all of these positions which actually, I already knew from being a nurse but a lot of people don’t do them. I had actually taken a class that she had taken too. It was kind of like a Spinning Babies class. So I was just like, “Oh my gosh. What are the odds that I get this girl?” I just was so happy. So we did all of the stuff and I started feeling all of the contractions again. I was like, “Okay. Well, maybe the baby is in a weird position or whatnot.” They came in to check me and the doctor was in there for a while. I was like, “Great. She’s trying to find my cervix. Can’t find it. Oh wow. Still a 2 probably.” Meagan: Or it’s gone. Taylor: Yeah, or it’s gone.She was like, “Okay. Well, you are a 9.” Meagan: Oh! Really, actually, it was gone. Taylor: Yeah. I was like, “Oh my gosh! What? Are you serious? I’m 9? Because all of this emotion just came flooding because everyone had said, “You probably won’t dilate again” or all of these things. I was just like, “I’m 9. Oh my gosh.”Anyway, so I ended up just having a super smooth delivery. I was complete. I just felt like the baby was coming out. I told my doula. She was like, “Yep. Baby is coming out.” I went and got my nurse and I pushed a few times and boom. She came out. I didn’t know it was a girl until she came out. Yeah. I just remember being like, “Y’all. I did this. I cannot believe this.” I just was in so much shock. I didn’t cry or anything. I just was like, “Yes to everyone who told me I couldn’t do it.” It was just amazing. Yeah. I just couldn’t believe that I did it. I still can’t believe that I did it. Meagan: Yeah. Well, when so many people place doubt, even though we believe that we can do it, we start believing that we can’t. We start believing that doubt, right? Taylor: Yes. Meagan: Then having to go through all of what you had to go through and sign an AMA then return at the same stage. All of these things, yeah. That could be a time when you would let self-doubt get you. But you did it. Taylor: Yeah, it was amazing. I did. Oh, I still can’t believe it. Meagan: You did it. Oh, that’s awesome. Congratulations. I kind of love the doubt stories. I know it sounds really bad, but I have this weird thing. I love proving things wrong because I did the same thing. My doctor doubted me and was like, “Yeah. No one is going to want you there.” I was like, “Yeah. You watch me. You watch me.” It drove me even further, so I love it. I love that you stuck with it. You advocated for you and your husband together. Just so awesome and then having that total shift of positivity and “Let’s do this. We’re going to have a baby.”It’s so important. I want to talk a little bit about labor and delivery nurses as you are a labor and delivery nurse. What tips or suggestions would you give to people that are on the other side like you were? Giving birth and wanting certain things and maybe having a labor and delivery nurse that maybe isn’t as supportive of your wishes or pushing hard whether it be them or the provider pushing hard against them. What would you suggest? Taylor: Yes. So my number one thing is to try so hard to research and just educate yourself before you go in. But the biggest thing is asking questions. If you’re not sure about something or if you– let’s say they want to come in and break your water. You’re just like, “Okay. I don’t know anything about that, but I don’t actually know that I want to do that,” and you don’t feel good about it, you don’t have to do it. You can say, “No.” I think people don’t realize that they can say, “No” or at least ask more questions about it. That is what even as a nurse, I always tell my patients. If a doctor comes in and wants to do something, I say, “Okay. Are you okay with that? Do you have any questions?” Just really advocate, advocate, advocate for yourself because luckily I had an awesome doula. And get a doula!I had an awesome doula and my husband who could bring me back down to Earth and say, “Taylor, no. You don’t want this” or “Are you sure about that? Why don’t we ask some questions?” But definitely just advocate, advocate, advocate. Ask questions. If they want you to be induced, why? Is there an actual reason? What other options do you have? Ask for options. When I had cholestasis, I didn’t know that I could have had another option. My value was not high, my bio acids. It was only 16. Meagan: Ohh. Taylor: Yes. I didn’t know. Maybe I could have asked. Could you trend that? Do I have to come in tonight? Meagan: Yeah. Taylor: Yeah. I didn’t know and I didn’t know then. I think a lot of people probably are like that. You don’t know. Meagan: You don’t even know that there are different numbers that could make it seem like you don’t need to go in right then. Taylor: Right, yes. So advocate for yourself. Ask questions. You know yourself better than anybody. Meagan: Yes. Oh, I love that. I love that so much. Thank you so much again for being with us today. I love your story. It’s just so hard coming in. There are so many times where you were like, “It’s not going to happen. It’s not going to happen. It’s not going to happen. It’s not going to happen.” But look at what patience and time did for you, and making choices like getting an epidural and getting some rest. Your body was able to rest and get the rest it needed to progress and the relaxation that it needed. A lot of people say that you can’t have a VBAC without an epidural. Some people say that you have to have a VBAC with an epidural. It just is dependent on that person and that situation. You make the decisions that are best for you. It looks like you nailed it. Taylor: Yes. Thank you so much for having me on here. I still. Thank you so much, Meagan.Meagan: Oh, thank you. Okay, I can’t wait for everyone to hear your story. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

After infertility and an initial C-section due to breech presentation, Julia knew that a VBAC was the redemption she needed. During her VBAC prep, she truly did it all.Julia labored hard, completely dilated, and pushed like a warrior. She was calling the shots and was fully supported every step of the way. But as she pushed, the radiating shoulder pain became hard to ignore. Baby’s heart was decelerating. Yellow-tinged amniotic fluid suggested meconium.Julia wanted to keep pushing, but she also knew something wasn’t right. Julia proved her true strength by listening. She put her body and her baby above her own birth dreams. We are SO proud of Julia’s courage and know you will be inspired by her many victories!Additional linksBloom NutritionTVL Blog: Understanding Uterine RuptureTVL Blog: How To Cope When You Don’t Get Your VBACTVL CBAC Facebook CommunityHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Happy Wednesday, everybody. This is Meagan with The VBAC Link and we have our friend, Julia, with us today. Julia’s story is going to be a CBAC. I love CBAC stories. I know that here at The VBAC Link, you think, “Oh, it should be all VBAC,” because that’s what we talk about which yes, it is a main focus of VBAC, but we don’t want to forget about our CBAC mamas. I was a CBAC mama myself and it is so important to talk about that as well because just like every first birth may unexpectedly go into a Cesarean, so are those VBAC births. Sometimes those are unexpected. Sometimes they are desired, and so we really like to talk about everything here and share all of the pros and the cons of everything. I am excited about Julia’s story. I feel like in so many ways, even though I have had a VBAC, I can connect to CBACs so deeply as well because I have had a CBAC. That CBAC wasn’t actually something that I desired necessarily, but that CBAC was something that I found a lot of healing through. So I’m excited to go into this story. Review of the WeekMeagan: But of course, you know we have a Review of the Week. We are always looking for more reviews so if you haven’t yet, feel free to jump over on Apple or wherever you are listening or email us. Google and send us a review. We would love to know how you feel about The VBAC Link podcast and how the stories of all of these incredible people are changing the way you’re viewing and the things that you are learning along your journey. This review is actually on our VBAC course for our Ultimate Parents’ VBAC Course. This is from Dani and it says, “This course gave me the knowledge and confidence I needed to move forward with my plan to have an HBAC.” If you didn’t know, HBAC is home birth after Cesarean. “When you realize that VBAC is just birth and hear the studies and insights that eliminate the mess and evoke a lot of the fear in many C-section mamas, you realize you’ve got this. I was empowered to find a provider that truly supported me and realize how much my gut was telling me my previous provider was not the way to go. I can’t wait to share my HBAC story when the time comes. Thank you so much for all you do.”And thank you, Dani. That is amazing. That is what we want to do here at The VBAC Link. We want to share all of the pros, the cons, and prepare you the way you need to be prepared whether that is for a vaginal birth after a Cesarean or a Cesarean birth after a Cesarean or home birth. Whatever that may be, we want to empower you and put the tools in your pocket for you to use. So if you have any other questions about our online course, we actually have them for birth workers as well. We have certified doulas, which, also, if you are looking for a doula, check out our website. We have so many incredible doulas all over the world. Seriously, all over the world. You can go to thevbaclink.com and click “courses” or “find a doula” to learn more about our online self-paced course. Julia’s StoryMeagan: Okay, Julia. I am so excited to talk with you today. Thank you so much for being here with us, for taking the time out of your day, and for being someone to share a very vulnerable space because I know sometimes CBAC is vulnerable. It is vulnerable, but I’m looking at your picture of you holding your baby after your C-section and it is beautiful. You are glowing. You are absolutely glowing. I mean, your smile is amazing. So I will turn the time over to you to share your experience with a CBAC. Julia: Okay, thank you so much. I’m so honored to be here at The VBAC Link. I had the goal of sharing a VBAC story, but I am proud of myself for coming back and sharing my CBAC story regardless even though it didn’t turn out the way I had planned it to. I hope that my story can help at least one other person as your stories have helped me.  Meagan: Yes. Yeah. It will. It definitely will. I remember having that feeling of that too of wanting so badly to share my VBAC story on The Birth Hour actually if you guys know The Birth Hour podcast. Julia: Yep. Yep, I’m very familiar. Meagan: I was like, “I am going to be a VBAC. I’m going to share on The Birth Hour.” It was not a VBAC and then I was like, “Oh.” And I did. I kind of was like, “Oh. I won’t submit it.” But I regret that. I totally regret that. I actually did submit my VBAC story as well. They get so many submissions as well, but I am so glad that you are here and that you are proud of yourself because you should be. Julia: Mhmm, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. So I’ll start out by tracing back to my first pregnancy because it paves the way for my second pregnancy and birth if that’s okay. Meagan: Right. Right. Yeah, absolutely. Julia: Going back, starting in October 2018, my husband and I had just gotten married and we were ready to start a family. My story has a bit of infertility in it, so I’ll touch on that if that’s okay. Yeah. I started trying to get pregnant in October 2018 and wasn’t getting my period. I decided to take matters into my own hands very quickly and go see an OB. They started me on medicated cycles with them, and I did three of those. Those were unsuccessful. In September 2019, I went to a reproductive endocrinologist, and in November, so two months later, we did our first IUI and it was successful. That’s how my first daughter was conceived. Just wanted to touch on infertility. It’s over now, but it was quite a big part of my story too because just another– I thought my body could do something that is always talked about happening very easily and it didn’t, so that was crushing at the time. It still is part of who I am and also dictated my feelings with my C-sections. I’ll fast forward to finding out that I would need a C-section with my daughter, Charlotte. My pregnancy with her was uncomplicated aside from happening during COVID and just not having a lot of support during that time. I just did an online birth class through my hospital that was just very cookie-cutter. I didn’t really get the opportunity to explore. I did interview some doulas in April 2020 and then it never really came to fruition. When I was 37 weeks, I found out that Charlotte was breech. There had been no indications of it up until that point. My OB does a check at 36 weeks to see if baby is head down and I was a little late for that. That appointment was a little further down. Meagan: Delayed. Julia: Yeah. Delayed. I didn’t get seen until 37 weeks and then at that point, it’s kind of a lot to find out that your baby is breech then because efforts to try and turn them are not as easy. It happens, I’m sure, but not for me. I had the opportunity to try an ECV, an external cephalic version, but I opted not to. I just didn’t have a good feeling about it. They scheduled my C-section for August 6th. I will say that this was hard for me to cope with. I did have a period of grieving. During my whole pregnancy, people would ask me what my birth plan was and I said, “Anything but a C-section.” When that happened to me, I felt that I had jinxed myself, but I know that’s not necessarily true. Her birth was on August 6th of 2020. I went in at noon. They gave me a COVID test. They hooked me up to the machines. There was a little delay because my OB was dealing with a vaginal birth. I remember at the time, even then, I was like, “That hurts,” that the person having a vaginal birth is getting precedence over me. It just was one last dig that I wasn’t getting the vaginal birth that I had hoped for because I had been hoping for a vaginal birth.But anyways, they took me back at 3:00 and my daughter was born shortly after. I had no problems with breastfeeding. She latched quickly. I was only in the hospital for 36 hours just, especially during COVID, they were encouraging people to leave as quickly as possible as long as things were okay. That was my story, so I do think I went home a little too early post-C-section. I remember taking that first trip up my stairs because I live in a two-story home and it was brutal. Meagan: Yeah. I had stairs with my second C-section. We had a breezeway that you had to pull down and then you had to climb upstairs to get to the first level and then climb up the stairs to get to the second level. There were 16-17 stairs in each set. I was just crawling, crawling up them. I was like, “I’m not coming downstairs. Everyone can bring me food. I’m not coming back down.” Julia: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I had dinner in bed that night or the next few nights. Yeah. Same story. I was like, “I’m not going back down for a while. So I dealt with that. Overall, my feelings around it were I was disappointed that I didn’t get my vaginal birth, but as the weeks went by, my experience as I looked back, was okay. It was straightforward. No complications and my recovery went well. It was hard though as we just talked about it. It’s easy to glaze over that. I had started to read already about pregnancy number two and how it’s extra hard to care for your first child while recovering from a C-section so that was a big motivator for me for my next birth. But yeah. Pretty soon after, I remember sitting in the rocking chair with my daughter while I was nap-trapped and getting on forums researching about C-sections and having weird, sad feelings about having a C-section after a birth. I think that was new to me. I felt a lot of feelings of inadequacy or just disappointment around it. I didn’t quite know that that was normal and then I think researching that led me to find out that a VBAC was an option. It’s interesting to think back to a time when I didn’t know what a VBAC was really. Meagan: Right? Julia: I could talk about it for hours now. But yeah, that term VBAC kept coming up, so I knew that in my next pregnancy that that was what I wanted to aim for in my next birth. After my daughter turned one in August 2021, I pretty quickly wanted to start trying for number two. One, I was genuinely excited to try and start working towards a VBAC, and given my history of infertility, I wanted to get started sooner rather than later. We had to get help with getting pregnant again. We did an IUI and we were lucky enough that it was successful on the first try again. That was in September 2021. I pretty quickly started forming my birth team just having already done so much research on VBAC and knowing that was essential to success. I did go to my first OB appointment at my old OB’s office and just wanted to pick their brains about what their policy was on VBAC. They told me that they don’t induce VBACs or don’t induce with a previous Cesarean delivery. They would give me up until 40 weeks up until my due date to go into labor naturally but if I didn’t, they would schedule a C-section. I heard that and I was like, “Yeah, I’m out of here.” I, in the meantime, joined some local mom groups and my local ICAN chapter Facebook group. I stumbled upon this group of midwives in the Michigan area that was close to me that was very VBAC friendly. I read a lot of success stories with that group of midwives. There was one in particular whose name kept coming up. I reached out to them and got set up with their group. I had to switch complete hospital systems. It was a little complicated but it was worth it. I switched providers and I also hired a doula very early on or signed on with her very early on, maybe at 9-10 weeks into my pregnancy. She also offered Hypnobirthing classes so my husband and I did those virtually. That was really cool. Like I said, with my first pregnancy, I really didn’t get much support to help me towards a vaginal birth although I ended up with my daughter being breech and if I had prepared, that wouldn’t have necessarily changed things much. But I felt really well supported during this pregnancy through those Hypnobirthing classes and exploring the more holistic way of prepping for birth. I got really into– I mean, I will say it was towards the end when I really started practicing my Hypnobirthing breathing and practicing the meditations. I did that and I also started seeing a chiropractor at 20 weeks. I went pretty much every week especially given my history of having a breech baby, I wanted to optimize my pelvic alignment for that. So that was another way that I felt supported just constantly getting really good, positive feedback from my providers like, “Oh yeah. You are such a good candidate for VBAC. You’re doing all of the right things.”I also did the Spinning Babies Daily Essentials. I was constantly thinking about my posture and my sitting position when I was sitting at night on my couch. I would sit forward again to promote good alignment with the baby’s head. I did all of the usual. At 34 weeks, I started red raspberry leaf tea. At 36 weeks, I started eating dates 3 times a day. I was walking. I was sitting on my birthing ball a lot more towards the end just to ideally promote labor to start naturally because as I got closer to the end of my pregnancy, the pressure to go into labor naturally started to build in my head just because I read that the best chance of success with a VBAC is going into labor naturally. That was heavy on my mind as it got closer and closer. I live in Michigan, but I’m originally from Massachusetts so my mom flew out the day before my due date which was June 17th of 2022. When she came out, I felt even more pressure. She was not pressuring me at all, but I just felt the pressure building like, “Okay. The spotlight’s on me to go into labor.” I just remember those few days until I did ultimately “go into labor” were very hard emotionally but they were also nice. I spent it walking with my mom and just doing activities with my daughter to pass the time. It was a time I was very much present just because I was very much aware as the days went by that I would inevitably be having this baby sooner than later. I went in at 39 weeks for my checkup and I knew I wanted to get checked then. I hadn’t been checked until then. I was tempted to but I didn’t just to avoid the mental gymnastics of dilation and all that. At 39 weeks, my midwife checked me and I was a fingertip dilated, but she said I was very soft. My cervix was very soft and my cervix was 80% effaced. She was very hopeful about that. I went home and Googled that. They said that was a good place to be for labor to start eventually. I wasn’t totally closed and high or anything like that. I had the next checkup at 40 weeks and 4 days. I was still the same, a fingertip. Soft cervix, 80% effaced so I was a little discouraged by that. In the meantime, I had started upping my attempts to induce labor naturally. I started pumping at night. I did a lot of curb walking and my doula encouraged me to buy some clary sage essential oil. I guess if you put some on your feet and I had my husband massage my feet with the clary sage oil and put it on some pressure points that it could help kickstart labor. Meagan: Spleen 6 can help. A lot of people go and get pedicures and then they go into labor and they’re like, “Oh what?” That’s what they’re doing. They’re massaging down there really well and it can totally help. Yeah. Julia: Yeah. Yeah, so I did that clary sage and the foot massage the night before I did actually technically go into labor. I don’t know if that helped or if that kickstarted things. At 40 weeks and 5 days, it was about 9:00 in the morning and I was sitting down for breakfast with my daughter. My mom was there and my husband was there, but he was working from home. I went to go stand up and I felt a warm gush of fluid. I was like, “Oh, that’s interesting.” I stopped and said, “Oh my god. I think I just peed myself.”Yeah. Of all the ways I thought my labor would start, I never thought it would be with my water breaking. I don’t know why. You always hear that women are like, “I’m just peeing myself. That’s not my water breaking.” It didn’t come out in a big gush, but it was small gushes throughout the morning. I put on a pad and I did notice even from the beginning that my pad was a little yellow-ish tinged. I didn’t think too much of it. Immediately, my mind went to meconium, but I thought that would be a little more green or brown, I think I was reading, so I wasn’t too concerned about that. I just went about my morning because I was still skeptical that I wasn’t peeing myself and that it was my water. Around noon, I texted my doula to let her know. She was excited that things were happening. I did tell her that the pad had a little bit of a yellowish tinge. She texted back that it was likely meconium but to not be too concerned. Once she confirmed that I got anxious just from what I had heard from birth stories. That’s not the best way to start labor is one, your water breaking first without really any cramping or contractions afterward. That was the other side of it. I didn’t really have a lot of cramping afterward that was indicating that labor was picking up. Once she told me that was meconium, I pretty much was like, “Okay. We need to go to the hospital.” I think in an ideal world given that I was trying to avoid intervention as long as I could that I would maybe hang out at home for a little while longer to see if labor progressed, but once I heard it could have been meconium, I was like, “Okay. We need to go.” So we did. I arrived around 1:00 p.m. that day. I went to triage and got checked. They confirmed that my water had broken and that there was some meconium staining as they called it. I got checked in. We went over my birth plan. The vibe was very positive and I had submitted a birth plan to my midwife. She submitted it to the hospital so it was very nice to know that they were on board with my birth plan. They had looked it over. The midwife that came in to check me said, “I know what your birth plan is and what you want.” That was really nice to hear already and to feel supported. They checked me in. I got into a room and they encouraged me to walk the halls to kickstart contractions and also tried nipple stimulation with pumping. They recommended pumping for 10 minutes on, 20 minutes off, and also going in the shower. All of the rooms at the hospital where I delivered had a tub and a shower. They encouraged me to go in there and use the showerhead for nipple stimulation as well to help kickstart contractions. I did that from 1:00 until about 8:00 p.m. Labor really didn’t start up. Around 8:30, the midwife came in and we decided to start Pitocin. I wasn’t too keen on it just because I knew that starting any intervention like that could decrease my chances of VBAC, but I was also at the same time excited to get contractions going and get things started just because I knew that I was on somewhat of a clock. My midwife group did not push the time between when my water broke and when I would have to deliver. They didn’t put that pressure on me which was very nice, but in my head, I knew that I personally didn’t want it if there was something going on, I didn’t want my baby to be in danger given that my water had been broken for 12 hours already. It broke at 9:00 a.m. and this was around 9:00 p.m. when we started Pitocin and there was some meconium staining in it. I was nervous for myself. I put faith in my midwives, but I knew that I was also concerned. Initially, she started at 2 units of Pitocin and then upped it every hour I believe. She upped it, I want to say, by 2 units every hour. Around 11:00, things picked up. I took a selfie of myself in the hospital bed at 10:45. I was looking back at my pictures. I was smiling and that was the last picture I took for the remainder of the birth up until my daughter was born. That’s how I know that at 11:00 things started to pick up because that’s when I went into labor land and full-on contractions. My husband and I started timing contractions. I was really excited to feel a contraction. I wanted to deliver vaginally of course, but one thing that I missed out on with my first birth was the labor experience because it was planned. I didn’t feel a single contraction with my first birth so I was excited to feel that and at least have that experience I did get that experience so that’s something that has helped me come to terms with it all. When the contractions started, I was happy although I was in pain. We were just trying different positions. I went into the tub and since I was a VBAC, I was on continuous monitoring so being in the tub was hard, but my nurse was great about making sure that the monitors stayed on my belly even when I was writhing around in pain in the tub. They had the band around my belly and then they put a pantyhose sleeve over it to secure the monitor, but it did keep moving around and all that. They never made me get out of the tub or anything to keep it more secure. That didn’t happen. They just worked hard to do their best. Around 5:00 a.m. on the next day, I was up to about 12 units of Pitocin. I was reading back through my notes and my midwife said I wasn’t tolerating those contractions very well, so she turned it down to 10 units. I will backtrack a little bit and say that around 3:00, my doula showed up just because I was in a lot of pain but I wasn’t ready for pain relief yet and just wanted her to come and help me along. My doula showed up around 3:00 a.m.She was very supportive and was helping me through contractions. She did encourage me to get in the tub another time even though I had gotten out. It just was not working for me. It was not giving me pain relief. The tub wasn’t very big. It was kind of like your classic tub, so it was hard to really get in a comfortable position. It even felt like the contractions were worse in the tub. I didn’t experience that relief that I thought the water might give me. Around 6:00 or so, we started talking about pain relief medication. They gave me the option for fentanyl which, they said, would be a short burst of relief, or the epidural. I was pretty well educated on both options, but I did take a little while to make the decision to ultimately go with the epidural just because I knew that again, it could slow down my labor and could lead to not achieving my goal of a VBAC. I was contracting every 2-4 minutes at that point. The surges, I guess I haven’t been calling them surges as we had been taught in Hypnobirthing. The surges were very intense. Around 7:00, I got the epidural and I felt some relief when they gave it to me. They pretty much encouraged me to take a nap. I was able to close my eyes for 40 minutes but didn’t sleep too long. I didn’t get that 3 or 4-hour nap that you sometimes get post-epidural. And then around 10:00, I said that I was feeling some pubic bone pressure. It was just very intense and I could not ignore it. It didn’t seem like the epidural was touching it much. I will say that I wasn’t using the epidural button too much to give me more medication. I don’t know why. I think that maybe I was just in labor land and didn’t think to use it. I did press it a couple of times and it didn’t really seem to touch the pubic bone pressure. I had the midwife come in. She checked me at that point around 10:00 a.m. I was 5 centimeters dilated which was exciting. Meagan: Yeah. That’s way awesome. That’s really awesome. Julia: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. The whole time, I was just in disbelief that I was living the story that I had heard so many times of actually having interventions and dilating and all that. But when she checked me, I was 5 centimeters, but she also said that the baby was malpositioned. Her chin wasn’t tucked as it should be. It was up, so that was likely causing the pubic bone pressure and also keeping me from dilating more. They hadn’t checked me much. I think that was the first time they had checked me since I went to triage the previous day just because my water had broken and they try to avoid that as much as they can to reduce the risk of infection. So from 10:00 until 3:00, we worked on getting the baby to move into a better position so that I could dilate more. I think a midwife checked me at another point between 10 and 3 and I hadn’t progressed at all. I think there was a little bit of pressure or just a little bit of tension with not dilating during that time, and given the “clock” that I was on with my water broken. We talked about options for what would happen if I didn’t progress more, but by 3:00, she did check me again and I was 7 centimeters dilated. I remember being like, “Oh my gosh. I’m going to have my VBAC. It’s happening.” I remember crying because I was really concerned that I wasn’t going to progress. Especially, I think I was blaming it on the epidural which made me nervous. So that was exciting. Right after that, from 3:00-5:00, I took a nap. It was a really nice time. While I was sleeping, my doula was reading me birth affirmations and up until that point, she had also been helping with different positions as we had tried to move the baby’s head down. I had my head up on the top of the bed facing down on the bed, my head on the top of the bed and she was just reading me birth affirmations and helping me through contractions. In hindsight, it was such a nice time. While I was in a lot of pain, I was enjoying it. I will say a lot of my pain was in my butt and back area. I think I was having back labor. My husband, I haven’t given him any credit yet, but he was amazing during birth and was really putting counterpressure on my back to help counteract the pain that I was feeling down there. It was just really, really, really good with how he worked with me and how he helped me to get through each contraction. That was most of the day. I woke up around 5:30 and I felt pubic pain again and then all of a sudden, it radiated up to the top of my abdomen under the top of my rib cage and it also radiated up into my clavicle. Immediately, I got on all fours and I was like, “I do not feel good.” It was interesting because earlier in the day when I felt that pubic pressure, I was questioning, “Oh, is this uterine rupture?” My doula said, “No. Usually, if you have a uterine rupture, one symptom is that you have pain up in your shoulders.” I was like, “Oh. I don’t have that” at the time when I first felt that pain, but they had attributed it to the malpositioning of the baby. Fast forward to when I said I was in a lot of pain and said, “I really don’t feel good,” I did have that pain in my shoulder. Immediately, I was like, “Oh my god. This is happening. This is rupture.” None of the midwives or nurses were saying that it was. I guess I learned during all of this that there aren’t a lot of easy ways to know if you have had a rupture. It was kind of up to me to communicate how I was feeling. Meagan: right. Julia: You know, because I could have gone along and ignored that pain or thought it was maybe related to contractions or the baby moving down, but it was a distinct pain. At that time, I also started throwing up, but it was at the time that could be transition. I think the nurses thought that was what it was. Meagan: Baby was doing okay at this point?Julia: Yeah. Baby was great up until this point. Yeah. In all my notes, it said, “Fetal heart tones great, in the 140s,” but after I had that episode or series of episodes of vomiting, the fetal heart rate dropped. That’s when things started to get a little dicey or they were dicey. It had been very chill and just letting me do my thing up until that point, but then they started saying, “Okay. We need to start making some decisions because we are having some decels.” That was happening at the same time that iI was dealing with the pain. I forgot some of what happened next, but I had pretty good notes from my doctors that helped refresh my memory and one of the OBs came in. I guess baby had flipped OP, so one of the OBs came in and actually turned her to be in the right position, so that was great. At that point, I was complete. They gave me permission to start pushing. Meanwhile, I was still dealing with this pain. I had become, I think I just stopped talking about the pain as much thinking, “Oh maybe if I don’t talk about it, it’ll go away” or that I could still carry on with pushing and get this all over with and get my vaginal birth. They gave me a chance to push. I pushed for about an hour. I always hear how it feels like it was five minutes, but it was a full hour of pushing and it felt like it went by really quickly. I think during this time, they had inserted an IUPC, the intrauterine pressure catheter just as a way to also monitor how baby was doing and also to backup the pain I was feeling to see if anything was off, maybe they would pick it up with that because that’s the only true way to measure the strength of uterine contractions I guess. I started pushing. It was a really exciting time. I had all my team around me. I had my doula put washcloths on my forehead. I had my husband on one side. My mom was actually there. She was just coming to visit because the rule was that I could have two people at my bedside during birth, two extra support people. My mom was able to come and go to the hospital as she wanted to, but she couldn’t be at my bedside. She walked in at the exact same time that my pain started. It was probably traumatic for her to walk into that. I was screaming and vomiting. Everyone was caught up in that, so I think people forgot about the rule and just ignored it. She was able to be at my bedside while I was pushing too which was really cool because having given birth back in August 2020, I just had my husband which I’m grateful for, but I didn’t have my mom there and I’m very close with her, so it was just like a dream come true to have my mom there while I was pushing, my husband there, my doula, all of the midwives there encouraging me and cheering me on. They brought over a mirror and I got to see the baby’s head. They even brought the pull-up bar or whatever and wrapped a sheet around it and had me pull on that to help me. Meagan: They call that tug-of-war. That’s what it’s called. Tug-of-war.Julia: Tug-of-war. Yeah. Yeah, so that was really great aside from the intense pain I was feeling. I really didn’t feel like I could push effectively. I was pushing, but I just couldn’t push how I thought I should because of this pain. I felt like if I pushed too hard, something was going to happen. Something was going to burst because I did have that in the back of my head that it was probably my uterus rupturing. Like I said, they trusted me to tell them to make the call if things weren’t feeling right. You know, of course, I had done all of this work, and yeah. I had done all of this work to prepare for a VBAC and I really, really wanted this to happen, so I had quieted down about the pain. They let me keep pushing, but then at some point, I was like, “What I’m doing is either putting my life and/or my daughter’s life at risk.” I felt kind of selfish continuing to push despite having this pain and despite pushing through what my body was telling me to do. I just knew something wasn’t right. They had, of course, brought up the concept of the C-section around this time, but they were giving me the chance to see if baby could progress further down. I was pushing and like I said, I didn’t feel effective enough and it was reflected because baby was not moving down that the rate that they would have hoped, and given that the baby was having heart decels, that was really concerning to them. I ultimately made the call for the C-section because I just couldn’t keep doing it. Like I said, I knew something wasn’t right and if I continued to push, I was probably putting myself or my daughter at risk. So that was around 6:30 and then once I made that call, everything was a flurry. I had a C-section before, so I know how things in the OR how busy it gets, and how quickly it gets busy, but I hadn’t had an emergency C-section yet, so that was just a new experience. It was a lot to go from pushing and everyone cheering me on to getting prepped for surgery, getting pulled this way and that way. I had said that my epidural wasn’t working very well. The OB that had since taken over now that it had taken a turn and it might be heading towards the surgery route, the midwives had to step back a little bit. The OBs were in the room and my OB had mentioned something about, “You might have to be put out.” I said, “I would go for the C-section, but I knew that if I had to go under general anesthesia, I was not going to be good mentally.” I did not want that. I did not want to be asleep when my daughter was born.So I did say that. I did advocate for that. I said, “Can’t the epidural be converted to a spinal?” The anesthesiologist was already in there. She was optimistic about that. I forget why it might not have happened and why it’s hard to convert one to the other, but I knew that was a thing that could be done, so I pushed for that. I said multiple times, “I do not want to be put to sleep,” so I’m happy about that at least. And then, yeah. I forget if I walked or was wheeled to the OR, but I was in so much pain at that point. I couldn’t wait for the spinal because I knew the relief that it gives. You feel nothing from the neck down, so I couldn’t wait for the spinal. At that point, my doula said that she was going to leave. I was just about to step into the OR and she said she was going to leave. I don’t know what the rules were, but I believe that just my husband or one support person could go into the OR with me. My mom was still there at that time, so she could be waiting in recovery for me, so my doula said that she was going to leave but that she would check in with me the next day. Yeah. So I remember going into the OR and I had just done this less than two years ago so I remember the whole story of how it goes. You know, getting the spinal, then laying me down quickly, and doing the time out, then the surgery started. I wasn’t sad at that time. My focus had shifted to, “Is the baby going to be okay?” During surgery, at one point, they said, “Yeah. You had a rupture,” so I knew. Meagan: So you did? Did they confirm a full rupture? Julia: My doctor said it depends on who you ask. What ended up happening was not a complete or catastrophic rupture. Meagan: A dehiscence?  Julia: Exactly, yeah. Meagan: Okay. Julia: A dehiscence. It was a 3-centimeter dehiscence that was not coming from my scar at all. It was in my uterine wall elsewhere down below, lower in my abdomen but not near my scar. There was amniotic fluid and meconium leaking out of it into my abdomen. Yeah. So all the while, I was still feeling this pain and this clavicle pain is what became my primary pain during all of it. During the surgery, I kept trying to move because I was in so much pain. The anesthesiologist kept saying, “You have to sit still. You have to sit still.” So that was very hard. So once I was in surgery, my focus shifted to my daughter. I had requested, as I was going into the OR, for a clear sheet. I was trying to fumble for ways that I could make it a gentle C-section as best as I could. I didn’t really prepare for that. I didn’t really put in my birth plan what to do in the chance of a C-section. So I asked for the clear drape, but I don’t think that my daughter was doing well enough when she came out to drop the drape. They never did and I’m assuming that’s why.I’ve also gone through and read her notes and her APGAR score at one minute was a 4. She wasn’t doing so great. She had to be resuscitated somewhat, then by five minutes, her APGAR was a 9. They did say that her cord gasses were concerning, so they did end up having to take her to the special care nursery. But as you saw in the picture, I was able to be with my daughter for some time. I got a picture with her. She was there for a while. Again, it felt like I was in there for five minutes, but I was in there for probably an hour and a half. I had my husband go with her to the special care nursery once they said they had to take her. I was just there and yeah. As they were sewing me back up, they pressed on my uterus. I forget what they were doing but they pushed on my uterus. Meagan: Probably Credé. Julia: Yeah, is that right? Yeah. Meagan: Yeah, they are checking for bleeding and clogs and those types of things. And probably fundal height. Julia: Yeah, they did something, but it made me scream from the pain that it caused. That was a little traumatic, but eventually, I was wheeled out to recovery and my mom was there. Luckily, my daughter only had to be in the special care nursery for two hours I believe. I was reunited with her in recovery and she latched right away and all that good stuff. I was very grateful for that. Shortly after, my OB who did the surgery came in and started talking to me about the rupture. She did call it dehiscence but she said in her book, any sort of tearing in the uterus is a rupture. She told me that I could get pregnant again, but I’d have to wait. I think at the time she said 18 months to conceive again and then she went on to say that a future pregnancy would be very closely monitored and that I would have to deliver between 36 and 37 weeks.That was pretty heavy for me. Meagan: Yeah. Julia: And still something that I am still working through. I guess I feel most sad about the repercussions of trying for the VBAC on future pregnancies just because I tell myself that if I had gone for a repeat C-section, none of this would have happened and I could have gone forward and tried for a VBA2C. Yeah, but as I’ve thought about it, if I hadn’t tried, I would have been very disappointed. I had to try at that point, so I’m glad I got the labor experience that I had hoped for. Like I said, I got to that point where I was pushing. Everyone was cheering around me. I had my doula. I was doing the position changes and getting in the tub, birth affirmations, and all of that but I didn’t end up getting to deliver vaginally which was a big part of my goal and still something that I am working through. But after the fact, I did realize that my daughter could have been– things could have turned out worse for sure. I’m very grateful for her health and my health. I did have some complications after the birth. I had to go to the ER twice in the week after her birth because I had this debilitating pain in my ribs and still on my clavicles. They ended up telling me that it was just trapped air which sounds silly because of how much pain I was in. Meagan: No. It’s not silly. I had that with my second C-section. Julia: Really? Meagan: It’s no joke. Julia: Yeah. Meagan: I’m like, “I just want to poke a hole right here in my shoulder.” It was so bad. Julia: Yeah. Yeah. Whenever I moved, it was debilitating pain. It was crazy. It was trapped air and then also as I had mentioned, the meconium and amniotic fluid had gone up into my abdomen, so that was causing a lot of irritation. Yeah, so the first week of my daughter’s life, I was in and out of the ER. I had to have a CAT scan at one point and drink the contrast. They recommend not breastfeeding and pumping and dumping for 1-2 days after that so I did have to give her formula for a day. At the time, I was like, “Whatever. Everything’s gone not how I had planned, so whatever. I guess I’ll give her formula for a day.” But it was just a day. It is what it is. Meagan: Yeah, but it impacted you too so try not to just cut it back. It’s like whenever everyone’s like, “Well, yeah but your baby’s okay and you’re okay.” You’re like, “Yeah and I’m happy about that, but it doesn’t mean I’m not upset about the other things.” Julia: Right. Meagan: that’s one of the biggest things. It’s okay to be grateful for a safe mom and a safe baby and that everyone was okay, but it’s totally okay to grieve and to feel upset or even mad or sad. You have those emotions. If you don’t allow yourself to have those emotions, we can’t start healing, right? Julia: Right, right. Yeah. Meagan: So I want to talk about a couple of things. One is dehiscence. It’s not a word that a lot of people hear. Like you said, it depends on the provider. It depends on who you’re talking to because most providers correct you. It’s like, “If you had dehiscence, it was a rupture.” There are three layers to the uterus. If the uterine scar opens up partially, but yours didn’t, stretching the scar out can cause that bottom layer to tear open. Yours was in a different place, but it means it’s not through all of the layers. That’s what they categorize as a dehiscence where it was starting. I’m very proud of you for following your heart and following your mind because you were like, “Something’s off.” It’s so hard because you were in that so close moment of, “I can do this. The baby’s right there. I can see my baby’s head.” Julia: Yeah. Meagan: I can’t imagine the banter that went through your mind of, “I’m so close to the birth I want, but something’s not feeling right,” so be proud of yourself for really following that intuition. We talk about that a lot here, this intuition and the intuition is strong. It doesn’t usually bring fear. It brings facts. It’s like, “Yep. This sucks. This isn’t what I wanted, but I have to make this decision.” So yeah.There’s a uterine window, uterine dehiscence, and then uterine rupture, a full rupture. Sometimes, even a window will be documented as a rupture on op reports. It’s really important to give it a look, but still, I mean, it happened and it sucks. It really sucks. It doesn’t happen often and we don’t know even why it happens, but it happens. I’m so glad that you guys are okay and I’m so glad that you were able to have your baby on your chest and be with your baby a little bit more. I also want to talk about how to cope when you don’t get your VBAC. It’s hard. It’s really hard. I can’t say that it’s easy. I can’t say that I didn’t cry my eyes out. Ugly cry. Sobbing. Even though my second C-section was a healing experience that I’m grateful for, I didn’t want that birth. That’s not the way that I wanted to give birth. I had to process it. Not getting your VBAC and processing it. What tips would you give? I’m sure you’re still healing and processing, but what tips would you give to our listeners who may not have ended in a VBAC or may not end in a VBAC for processing and working through that? Julia: Yeah. My biggest tip would go out to people who are trying for a VBAC right now would be just to definitely explore being okay with things not going to plan because I think that dictates how you can cope with things afterward. I think if I had gotten ahead of it a little bit and listened to more CBAC stories and written on my birth plan what I would want in the event of a C-section. It’s such a hard balance of wanting to stay positive and keeping those negative thoughts out of your mind but also not negating the fact that there is a chance because I definitely did not think I would have a uterine rupture. I just had a planned C-section for a breech baby, so I had no indication that I would have a rupture. I think just exploring that and not pushing away those feelings that come up when you see CBAC stories on the Facebook groups. I would even ignore those and just focus only on VBAC success stories. I think if I had surrounded myself with more of that and more of the alternative, I would have come out a little bit stronger. It still would have been hard and it is hard, but if I could go back in time, that’s what I would have done. For women who have had a CBAC and had their story about how things didn’t go according to plan, I would say to get help and not be afraid to get help. I’m lucky that the hospital I delivered at has a program to follow up with women who have had traumatic births and have a history of anxiety or other mental illness. I do have a history of anxiety so I was glad for a consult from a midwife who is also a therapist and works with therapists who will give you help to process your birth. It’s not just any old therapist. They are birth trauma specialists. That was really amazing.In hindsight, it still doesn’t fix anything, but having someone there to support you is important. You can talk to your family about it, talk to your spouse about it, but they are not in your head and they don’t know really how truly, truly invested you were in it. You do get a lot of, “You should be happy.” One tip with working with mom therapists is every time you go to a negative thought about, “Oh, this is all my fault or I did this wrong and that’s why I ended up not having a VBAC,” to replace it with a positive thought. If you are blaming your body for not doing such and such, replace it with something that your body did do. For me, that was, “My body gave me a very strong message that things were not right.” That likely saved my daughter and my life, so when I go to think of those negative thoughts about what I could have done differently, I tried to replace them with that thought or something similar to how my body did work with me during that process. That’s been really helpful. I think that could be helpful for other women listening too. Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, we say it all too often. We hear it all too often. Failed VBAC. Failed. The word “failed”. I’m sorry, but we did not bleepity bleepity bleepity bleep fail. There is no failure in birth. It sucks that we have even incorporated that word and we use it as “failure to progress”. We use it in medical terms. “Failure to progress”, that’s what the medical providers use it as and we do. We reference that. But holy cow. There is no failing. It’s important to know that. Yes. For me, my body didn’t make it past 3 centimeters the first time, 1 centimeter the second time. My doctor even told me, “Yeah. You won’t be able to.” But that’s not true. I love that you said, “Fill my mind with something positive.” Look what it did do. Look what it did achieve. Look at what I achieved. Look at how hard of a thing I did. Julia: Yep, absolutely. Meagan: I love that. I love that so much. We are going to have a uterine rupture blog and how to cope if you don’t get your VBAC in the show notes but something else I really want to include in the show notes is your website. I love what you do and we will make sure to of course tag you and everything in the post but I love what you are doing. You are a registered dietician. A lot of people write us and they say, “I already had my baby. I’m 6 months postpartum. I want to start really working on this prep early for my future VBAC.” They’re like, “What can I do?” One of the number one things– there are so many things. Education, finding a supportive provider, and all of those things, but truly, it’s working on our whole self. That means mentally, too. We’ve got to work through previous traumas and fears and work through that, but also nutrition. Nutrition and exercise are so important. You help with pregnancy and postpartum. You talk about intuitive eating. You even help with fertility. So before we go, I would love for you to share because you do online stuff, right? Julia: Yep, yep. I see clients virtually all over the country. I’m based in Michigan right now, so a lot of my clients are from Michigan, but I see clients in other states as well. I work from an intuitive eating mindset trying not to focus on dieting and numbers and all of that, but trying to just as we’ve talked about in this episode, learn to trust our bodies when it comes to our hunger cues, eating, and how we like to move our bodies, finding movement that we genuinely enjoy, not exercise that we dread. Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Julia: That’s especially important during pregnancy when you really have to listen to your body, truly, and what it’s telling you. So yeah, that’s what I do. Meagan: Awesome. You even help with snack and meal plans. I mean, just as a busy mom in general, it’s really hard and when you are prepping and you’re like, “I’m raising 1, 2, 3, 4, or however many kids. I’m doing all of the other things around the house. I’m trying to educate myself for this VBAC.” You do all of these things. We sometimes forget to serve ourselves with our food, so I love that. If I could just have that plan, it would be so nice to know that this is what I’m going to eat today instead of, “Oh, I’ll just grab a quick snack that’s maybe not so healthy for me because I’m so hungry.” I love that you do that. We will make sure. It’s Bloom Nutrition. Bloom Nutrition, is that correct?Julia: Yes, yes. Yep.Meagan: We will make sure to put that in the show notes and make sure to tag you. So if you are listening, go hang out. Check out the show notes or go hang out on her page. Check her out on Instagram and Facebook. We’ll have all of that listed because truly, it is important. It is really, really important. Thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you for sharing your story and for being vulnerable. Julia: Thank you so much. Meagan: I know that that had to have been hard in the moment, but I’m so proud of you and I really am so proud of you. I hope you know that you are a Woman of Strength. You are so strong and you are capable of so many things. Even though the birth didn’t happen the way you desired, I know that your daughter way down the road and any kids that you have in the future are going to love you and say, “Thank you for bringing me here today.” Julia: Yep, absolutely. Thank you so much. It’s been great to be here. An honor, truly. Thank you. Meagan: Thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We are honored to have Dr. Hazel Keedle join us today all the way from Australia! Hazel is the author of Birth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth. She has more than 25 years of experience as a clinician both in nursing and midwifery, an educator, and a published researcher. Her work remains rooted in her desire to strengthen and empower women.Hazel tells us how her own VBAC birth journey lit a fire that led to the completion of her doctorate degree and her book. Everything in her book is ESSENTIAL for VBAC-hopeful mamas and is all backed with evidence-based research.We know you will LOVE listening to Hazel. She is so gracious and such an invaluable asset to the birth world. This episode is a must-listen and her book is most definitely a must-read for all!Additional linksBirth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth by Hazel Keedle, PhDHazel’s Instagram: @hazelkeedleHazel’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/VBACmattersSarah’s Instagram: @sarah_marie_bilger or @entering_motherhoodHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: You guys are listening to The VBAC Link and I’m so excited for today’s episode. We have Hazel Keedle today. She’s in Australia and it’s 1:00 a.m. She stayed up all night just to be with us today on this podcast. So grateful for her. We’re going to be time sensitive so we can make sure to get her tucked into bed at a somewhat reasonable hour, but guess what? Today, we have a co-host. A co-host! I’m so excited to start bringing on some co-hosts here and there. Today, we have Sarah and she is one of our VBAC doulas. I’m so excited to have her with us today. Review of the WeekMeagan: Sarah is going to actually do the honors of reading you a review. So go ahead, Sarah. Sarah: Hi, yeah. I’m glad to be here. We have a review from Katelyn Bayless. This one is from google and it says, “I honestly can’t recommend The VBAC Link enough. I had my son via C-section in 2021 and even though I’m not pregnant with number two yet, I feel so ready and even excited for when that time comes because of all of the stories and education from The VBAC Link. I have been binging the podcast for the past couple of weeks and I have a note on my phone that is specifically for VBAC resources and education that has been mentioned on this podcast. “I am looking into providers and planning on starting interviewing some soon. I can’t tell y’all enough. Thank you for all that you do and I hope one day I can share my VBAC story.”Meagan: Oh, I love that. I love that. Well, today’s episode is going to have some more resources for you for sure. Hazel Keedle, PhDMeagan: We are coming to you from The VBAC Link. We have a guest from Australia. We’re so excited to have her. We’re so, so excited. We actually just connected here. We are connecting for the first time, I should say today, but Hazel, our guest today, just connected with us about a week or two ago. You guys, she is so amazing. It’s 1:00 a.m. and she is in Australia recording right now, so I just want to give her a huge shoutout and thank you for being with us at 1:00 a.m. Oh my goodness. I told her I probably would have been, “Nope. Let’s find another time,” but here she is. She is so dedicated at 1:00 a.m. recording with us and I cannot wait to share with you this wonderful, wonderful human being. We are going to jump right into it because again, it’s 1:00 a.m. I don’t want to take too much time but I wanted to introduce her quickly. This is Hazel Keedle. She is a lecturer of midwifery and completed her PhD in 2021 at Western Sydney University in Australia. Hazel has more than 25 years of experience as a clinician in nursing and midwifery, educator, and researcher. Her research is – it might as well be 1:00 here Hazel. Hazel: You’re doing great.Meagan: Her research is recognized internationally and focuses on midwifery practice, education, and women’s experience in maternity care. Hazel is passionate about improving support for women during pregnancy, birth, and early transition to mothering. She is amazing. Right here in my very hands, I am holding a book that she wrote. It’s called Birth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth by Hazel Keedle. I definitely am going to suggest this and we are going to talk more about her book here in just a minute, but again, I don’t want to take too much of her time so we are going to jump right into it and turn the time over to you to share all of your wonderful knowledge and of course, your story. Hazel: Sure, okay. Well, thank you for having me here. I really don’t mind waiting up for you. Okay, so yeah. My name is Hazel Keedle and I’m originally from the U.K., but I moved to Australia 20 years ago now with a backpack and I never left. I came over here as a nurse and then I trained to be a midwife while I was here. I was kind of destined. My granny was a midwife in England and she told me that I would be one, so I followed what she said and I became a midwife here. And then, I wasn’t particularly interested in vaginal birth after Cesarean at that point. I was just trying to get my head around what being a midwife was and what it meant. I quickly met my husband during my UgradG* as a midwife. We quite quickly got together and had a baby which was a planned home birth but ended up that he was being breech and I ended up having an emergency Cesarean because in my area at the time– this was 15 years ago– there wasn’t anyone who supported breech vaginal birth. I knew that I would have to have a Cesarean. I didn’t have a great experience and I didn’t do too well with my health afterward. But then, which was not planned at all, I got pregnant again very quickly. There were only 4 months between my Cesarean and getting pregnant. When I did find out, which was a few months after that, so I was breastfeeding, I had to think about what I was going to do and I really didn’t want to have a Cesarean. My whole first experience was the most hospitalized home birth you can have. I had pneumonia at 34 weeks with my first and then I had a Cesarean and I had mastitis and a childhood fever, so I was in the hospital three times. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Hazel: I was really sick and I really did not want to go through that again, but I also wasn’t sure if I would get support to have a VBAC because there would be 13 months between them or 14 months, I thought, at that point. I did lots of reading. I was a midwife by this point and I dug my head into the numbers. I read the only book that was out there which was The Silent Knife which as you know, is very old and it was very old then, but it was really good at getting me the statistics. I then dated my reading. For a whole weekend, I shut myself in a room and just read and read and read and read. I came out of it freaked out because a paper had come out that year that said if it was less than 6 months between a Cesarean and conception, then you had a 2.7% chance of uterine rupture compared to less than 1%. I got a bit freaked out by those numbers. I came up to my hubby who is a very rational numbers man and I said, “I can’t do it. I can’t do it. I can’t have a VBAC.” I told him the numbers and he said, “You’ve got over a 97% chance of everything being fine.” I was like, “Well, yeah.” It was more dangerous and get in a car and drive to the hospital. Why don’t you just go for a VBAC?I adopted his idea and I thought that it was a great idea. I became dedicated to having a VBAC at that point. I didn’t realize at the time it would shape my future career and life goals, but I stuck my head in the sand. I avoided antenatal care to be honest because I didn’t want to hear the negativity but I was a midwife, so I was able to get someone to listen to my baby and did my blood pressure every time I went to work. I did plan a home birth for my VBAC, but all of my team couldn’t be there at the time, so I transferred in. I had to fight during my labor. There was just lots of coercion, lots of “you must have your baby by 4:00 or you’re going into a Cesarean”, and I had to just keep fighting. It was so hard to keep fighting when you are in labor. They also knew I was a midwife. I trained there, so I couldn’t understand why I had to fight so hard. And then I actually pushed her out of my vagina at 4:00 on the dot. Meagan: Oh my gosh, no way. Hazel: Yeah. The time they were going to take me into theater was her birth time. It was amazing. I didn’t know I could feel that high after doing something that was so hard, but I did and it left me with a couple of questions when I looked back and reflected on how I felt. First of all, I wondered if there were any other women who felt as amazing as I did. I really was on cloud nine. I felt like I was healed and that all of the medical stuff I had after my first was gone. But with that came a question of how does any other woman in Australia manage to have a VBAC with that much drama and with that much negativity during labor?Meagan: Yeah and pressure. Hazel: Yeah and I was a midwife. I could see through it, but how did other women who didn’t have that knowledge? So I was left with those questions. I was at a community forum. We had a lot of access issues up here to our local maternity and there were lots of petitions and community action. I went over to one of the forums. I shared my VBAC story in that forum and there was a professor of midwifery there who said, who I’d never met before, “You know, you’re a midwife. I think you should research this.” I stayed in contact and then about a year later, I started doing research with her. She was my supervisor for both my Master’s Honors and then my PhD. Now, we work together on a lot of projects. So yeah. It was sharing my story in that location that started my research career. Well, I think having a VBAC started my research career but that started my formal research career. Now I’m here. She’s about to turn 14 and I have done a Master’s, a PhD, five or so papers on VBAC, maybe more, and written a book. So that’s my story in a nutshell. Meagan: Those are amazing things. And written a book. It’s so funny because you were like, “Yeah, it started,” but I think it had been with you for a while and then that inspired you and gave you the extra oomph. It was like, “Now I’ve gone through this and experienced this. How can I change this? How can I change this for everyone else?” I always had this desire for birth and a passion for babies. I would have wanted to be a labor and delivery nurse, and then I had my first C-section and was like, “Oh. That wasn’t really what I wanted or what I envisioned.” Hazel: Yeah. Meagan: And then after my second, learning more about doulas and birth, and really the options, then also going through that second Cesarean, although it was healing and everything, just having a different experience, I was like, “Yeah. This is what I’m doing. This is what I want to do.” It’s like it was always in you and it was always in me, but these experiences that we’ve had have lit the first. Hazel: Yeah, it became the drive. I’ve always been interested in research. I got an Honors degree when I was a nurse back in London, and so I had a bit of a passion for research and for reading research, but I think you have to have that real drive and reason for going on such a big path. And yeah, definitely. For me, it was not even how amazing I felt. It was just that question of, did other women feel that? Is it hard for everyone?There was one point when I had stayed overnight. I wish I hadn’t. I wish I had gone straight home, but I had been coerced to stay overnight in the hospital. Midwives would be coming in and saying, “Are you the VBAC woman?” I thought, “What is this? Is this a zoo and I’m a prized animal that they are coming in to stare at?” It made me think that it actually was quite rare then to have a VBAC here. It was really so rare that they had to come in and go, “Are you the VBAC woman?”Meagan: “Are you the VBAC woman?” Yes. Hazel: Yeah. But I hadn’t learned much about it in my training. I was working in the low-risk units, so we didn’t offer VBAC in the hospital I was working in, so it was quite a rarity for me as well. Meagan: Yes. So tell me more about VBAC in Australia. Tell me more about what it’s looking like, what it’s seeming like, and what you’ve learned through all of your education. I would love to know. We talked about this in the beginning. I’m just here in Utah. We are actually very fortunate. We have a high VBAC rate here. I mean, Cesarean rates are still through the roof in general in my own opinion, but we still have a higher VBAC rate and we still have to fight for it. It isn’t as uncommon, but I’d love to know more about your research and what you’re seeing there in Australia. Hazel: Yeah. So what is your VBAC rate, out of interest, in Utah?Meagan: I’m trying to remember the exact. I will look it up. Hazel: I’m trying to think that the US in general is about 12% isn’t it the last time I checked the numbers?Meagan: Yeah, that does sound right. Hazel: Interestingly, I do a lot of presentations on VBAC. When you look across the world, they really do vary from Finland with, I have a 50%, down to across to you guys at 12%. We match you. We actually don’t have the high European numbers. We have 12% as well. Meagan: It says 23.9%. Hazel: Okay, so that’s pretty good. I wish we had that. Meagan: Yeah, so it says in 2020, well, oh my gosh. 21.3% were Cesarean, but vaginal birth after Cesarean from 2017-2020 in Utah averages 23.9% overall. Hazel: Yeah. Meagan: And then it breaks it down within the cities here. Hazel: Which is pretty good. I mean, I know that’s not consistent across the U.S. because the national number comes right down. We do have varieties over here and those varieties are down to the model of care and access. So here in Australia, we have a public maternity system or a public hospital system that is paid through the taxpayer. In that system, where everyone gets free health care, they will be able to access a few different models depending on what’s available in their area. They might have a midwifery group practice where they could see the same midwife throughout and there would be a few of them that were on call for free. It’s part of the hospital service, but that is relatively new. That has really been rising in the last few years as the health services are increasing those models. We have the standard antenatal care which is where women see whichever midwife is on duty or whichever doctor is on duty and whoever is in the labor ward will look after them during labor and whoever is on the ward would look after them postnatally. We call it “standard care” but we also call it “fragmented care” because you see somebody different all of the time. Then we have– so outside of the hospital system, we have some smaller ones for first nations women, and for migrant women, there are some specific models as well. But then outside of the hospital system, we do have privately practicing midwives who are able to prescribe medications, get some money back from Medicare, and offer home birth services. Some of them also have visiting rights in hospitals. That is more state specific. We have more ** there than in any other state here in Australia for the visiting rights. Meagan: So then are you able to come over if a transfer were needed to happen and things like that, they could come over and perform their care? Hazel: Yeah, they could have an agreement with the local hospital, but that’s a growing thing and it’s more popular in some states than in others. Where I am, which is New South Wales, which is where Sydney is, there’s only really one hospital that offers that in such a very big state. Meagan: Yeah. Hazel: And then we also have the private hospital as well where you would be through a private obstetrician. You would get that continuity, but it’s obstetric care, not midwifery care. You may or may not see a midwife during your antenatal period and then you will have midwives along in the labor ward or in the private hospital, but with the private obstetrician you signed up for. So we’ve got a few different models of care and what we do know from the studies that have been done, the VBAC rates do vary across those models of care. They are higher with privately practicing midwives, so a lot of women who choose home birth are choosing it after a Cesarean and that’s what I did my first study on which was their experiences. Then we have good rates in midwifery models of care such as the midwifery group practices and then we have low rates in private hospitals. They have higher repeat Cesarean rates and a lower VBAC rate in private hospitals with continuity of obstetric care. That’s really how it looks. But obviously, we are a very big country with a lot of areas in between, so we will have hospitals that maybe don’t offer birthing services, but a lot of our remote communities are a bit like Canada where all of them, I say in areas of Canada, they have some birthing in-country services. We are still a bit behind on that, so it really is a variety of services, but in most metropolitan hospitals, you’d get a private model, a public model, and midwifery models within that. Meagan: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love it. I wish so badly that I had the capabilities or I guess I was in a time in my life where I didn’t have little, like little kids, where I could bounce around to not only different states but different countries and somehow observe birth and learn birth around the world. That is this dream of mine that I could understand birth from all areas other than just little Utah here. I have a doula partner who just came from Texas and birth is so different here in Utah than it is in Texas. What you’re describing is so different. Obviously, there are similarities all around. We hear all of these stories and there are definite similarities. It’s birth, but the way care is and everything, so yeah. One day. One day maybe I’ll be able to bounce around in life, but I love hearing that. Hazel: That’s right because only then you’re limited then to really what is published and so some other countries that have higher VBAC rates– just across from us is New Zealand where they have a midwifery model of care and the numbers we can get from them, they don’t have national data on this, they seem to have much higher VBAC rates to us, but then they aren’t published very much on it, so it’s really hard to know. Unless you’re there, it’s hard to get a sense of what’s going on. Meagan: What’s really going on, what they’re doing, and why do they have such a high rate? Hazel: Yeah, yeah. Meagan: Other than maybe midwifery care. Hazel: There are some studies out there, especially in Europe, there are some studies that looked into the culture and how different that is, but not enough. Not enough to really give us an idea. Meagan: Absolutely. So, Ms. Hazel, I would love for you to share more about your book too. You have so many amazing things in this book. I’m going to hurry and just flip over to the table of contents, but it reminds me a lot about our VBAC course. It covers so many incredible things, these topics. Obviously, your VBAC journey is in there, your research journey which I think is amazing, your PhD journey, birth trauma, and experiences and symptoms of birth trauma which are so important. We don’t talk about that enough. Seeking help and debriefing– again, something we don’t talk about enough. How to access debriefing. I don’t know if you want to cover any of that, but that’s so important right there. You have so many things in this book. Do you want to cover some of your highlights? Sarah and I are both here in the states, but we would love to know more about this amazing book. By the way, listeners, we’re going to have a link for this book if you want to purchase it and give it a read because it’s going to be amazing for you. I promise you. Hazel: Oh thank you. Well, my publishers are in the U.S., so when I was writing it I very much had the U.S. in mind, Australia, and the U.K., so even when I looked at any resources in the book, I tried to find U.S. ones as well. Meagan: Yeah, I noticed. YOu have some Lamaze and everything in here. You have tables of words broken down and it does have U.S. things. That is something, I think, that is so amazing because a lot of our listeners are in the U.S. so it’s super nice to be able to read something and have some resources for here where they are. Hazel: Yeah. The idea behind the book was I was towards the end of my Ph.D. journey and I used a methodology called feminist critical theory. Part of that is that you give back your research. You get your research. You get your data from women in the community, but you want to give back to transform that culture for the better. When I was really evaluating, “Well, how do I do that?” When I was writing my thesis, I was like, “Well, how am I giving back to my community?” I had research papers and I know people read research papers. You guys do and then you translate that evidence into your doula course. A lot of people do that. But I thought, “Maybe that’s not everyone.” When I did my Australian VBAC survey, I asked what kind of resources people used, and there was a real want to have more books out there. I wondered if I could have this crazy pipe dream of writing a book and then I had the opportunity to do that, so I submitted my thesis in the October and by the December, I had signed a book contract. I was really keen while it was all fresh in my head to get it all out and down on paper.I think lockdowns were in my favor because I had to take leave because it was building up. I couldn’t go anywhere so it was like, “Well, I will just sit and write this book then.” That’s really how I used my time to do it. I put it together as my findings of my PhD. One of the first papers I wrote on my PhD journey was looking at all of the evidence that was out there. The title of the paper was, “The journey from pain to power.”That was a thread that went through all of my PhD journey. When I was then looking at, “Well, how do I write this book?” The term “journey” was very high up there. I thought, “Well, I go on that journey from pain to power.” That first thing is that pain and that is that previous Cesarean. One of the things I found out from my studies was that usually in the community, we have about a third of women say “yes” to experiencing birth trauma. That’s the full state of birth trauma which includes psychological birth trauma. When I asked that question in my VBAC surveys– so all of these women have had at least one previous Cesarean– that was ⅔ of women that suggested birth trauma. We already know we have a highly traumatized group of women who have had a previous Cesarean, so that’s why I started with that. I think it’s really important. It certainly is. I was a home birth midwife for many years. I know you need to work that out and talk about it, and debrief about it before. You’ve got to work at that past to be able to look forward to the future. Meagan: Yeah. Well, and even recognizing it. Hazel: Yeah, that’s a great one. Meagan: Sometimes, it’s hard to recognize that you look at your experience as traumatic because I feel like so many times, we are mentally trained to tell ourselves, “Oh, we had a safe and healthy baby, so no. It’s fine.” They suppress their trauma down. They’re like, “No, I was fine. It’s fine.”Sarah: We’re led to believe that as well. Hazel: Yeah, absolutely. That’s why I really brought in quotes and what it can look like for women and quotes from the stories that had been shared with me for people to go, “Maybe that is what I experienced. Maybe those symptoms are what I am experiencing.” I start that chapter off with, “Go grab yourself, in pure English style, go grab yourself a cup of tea and a chocolate bar because this chapter will be tough,” just to recognize that this might not be the easiest one. It might not be where people want to start off with. They might go back to that. But yes. I started off with that pain and then I used what I found through my PhD and what I did in my qualitative. So in my PhD, I had qualitative and that moved into quantitative. So the qualitative is all of the feelings, experiences, and exploration, and then the quantitative is all of the stats and the numbers. When I did the qualitative, what I did was I had this crazy idea of designing an app. Women, after their appointments with their healthcare provider, would come home and record their experiences on the app. They would do that after every appointment and then I interviewed them afterward as well. I had some really rich data. I had 52 recordings. I’m so grateful to those women. I’ll be forever indebted to those women. Then I had all of these interviews as well, so I had these really rich stories. We use that term in qualitative is rich data. Sarah: These were appointments leading up to their birth or after in the postpartum period after their Cesarean? Hazel: Right, this is during their pregnancy. Sarah: Okay.Hazel: So they were planning to have a VBAC. That’s what their plan was and then they would go and see their healthcare providers and then they would do recordings for me. They were given some prompts and questions, but it became very organic like it was more like a journal. They would start going, “Hi, Hazel. I’m so many weeks now and this is what just happened.” It was a really novel way. The research hadn’t been done like that before, so it was really interesting. What I was able to do was a narrative analysis which was comparing all of their stories against each other to look for commonalities and differences. What I found is that there were these four factors that impacted how they felt after the birth because I interviewed them all after the birth as well. Those four factors, if they were really positive on those four factors across them and they had a cumulative effect. One had an impact on the other. They felt better about their birth experience regardless of the birth experience. If they felt lower on those four factors, they were more devastated after their birth experience.It didn’t mean that those who had a vaginal birth didn’t feel more positive than those that had a repeat Cesarean because it kind of was that as well, but there was a lot of resolution that could come when you had a repeat Cesarean, and felt higher in those factors. Those factors are then what I go into in the book. There’s a chapter dedicated to each one of those factors. They are having control, so having control over your choices, your wishes, and your birth outcomes. Then there’s having confidence, so having confidence in your ability to have a vaginal birth after a Cesarean, but also, having confidence in your healthcare providers’ belief in you. That was quite surprising for me how pertinent that was. Women really wanted that. It makes sense, doesn’t it? You really want that person to believe in you and believe that you can do what it is that you want to do. And then there’s having a relationship, so that was the relationship that you have with your healthcare provider whether that’s one that is developed such as continuity of care or whether it’s with a different person each time, and even then, not all continuity is the same and that really came out in the study. And then the last one is being active in labor. That seemed a bit of a strange one to add on, but women who felt they were really able to do everything that they wanted to do during labor and birth, being as active as they could, as upright as they could, felt better after their birth experience. If they then ended up with a repeat Cesarean, then they still felt very positive because they had done everything that they could compared to not having the opportunity to be upright and vocalizing that. Meagan: Yes, yes. We have found that. I have found that personally in my group of doulas. We have found that even if it doesn’t end the way they want, there are bumps and curves. It’s labor and birth, but along the way, if they felt like they were in charge and were able to be in the positions they wanted and call the shots a little bit more, overall after, they felt immensely more positive and happy about their experience. Hazel: Yeah, absolutely. That’s it. In the book then, I really go into what they all mean. The control chapter might take some people by surprise because I actually know a lot of women, especially when they are reflecting on their previous Cesarean which may have been, let’s just take probably the most common example these days. Induction, they’re having their first baby, they get close to the date, post dates, they get encouraged to have an induction. The induction doesn’t quite go to plan. They have a cascade of interventions and have a Cesarean. When they are then planning for the next birth before or during the pregnancy, one of the common themes is getting armed with knowledge. It’s like, “Okay. Now I need to know everything about labor, birth, and pregnancy. I really want to be able to call the shots.” There’s a bit of grieving in that time of, “Why did I say yes? Why didn’t I say no?” A bit of self-blame. I think as women, we are kind of hardwired to blame ourselves for everything, especially blaming our bodies because we are never quite right. The media never lets us think we are right because we are either too big or too small or our boobs are not quite right or whatever. Meagan: Right.Hazel: There’s nothing to make us feel better and then we blame ourselves for not being able to stand up against the patriarchal medical system. I actually start the control chapter looking at the impact of the patriarchy in medicine and especially in obstetrics and how the different waves of feminism have impacted that and also the impact of reproductive justice which is something that is obviously very important in the U.S., but also over here with our host nations’ women and migrant communities that have come to Australia. I look at all of that and really frame it to go, “You know, it’s actually not your fault. It’s actually really hard to stand up for yourself and say no when you are at the bottom of a really oppressive ladder.” Not to come and say, “Well, you can’t do anything,” because then I explore all of the ways of what you can do to help that and actually how you need all of those factors together to really build your position. But almost to take that guilt off and also understand where we’ve got to today with a hospital-based maternity system, why it is like it is, and the impact of all of those different changes in society that have got to where we are today. So yeah. Those are the different chapters. Some of them have activities that you can do. There are a few guess righters in there. And then one of my favorite parts, probably because I didn’t have to write it, but I put a Facebook post out and asked for women who had any VBAC stories that they wanted to print in the book. I wanted a VBAC with just something a little bit different or complicated risk or whatever. I have got 12 stories of women from around the world including the U.S. who’ve had VBAC with something a little bit different there. It might be after multiple Cesareans like your story or it might be at home or it might be with a larger body which, as we know, gets a lot of stigma in maternity care. There’s one that is a VBAC after a uterine rupture. There’s one after a classical scar. There are all of these different stories at the back of the book in full with pictures, but I also weaved them into some of the chapters earlier as well. I love those stories. Some are short. Some are in poem form and some are really long. I just kept them as they were and put them in the book. Just really so women can identify and go, “Maybe I’m not quite sure what Hazel is saying,” and then they get to that story and they are like, “Oh, actually I really relate to that person.”Meagan: Yeah. That’s one of the reasons why we’re here on The VBAC Link podcast, right? All of these stories, some of them you might not connect to as deeply, and then some you’re like, “Oh my gosh. That’s me. I felt that. I had that. That’s my story. It’s like they’re taking it out of my own mouth.”Hazel: Absolutely. It is so important. Meagan: We’ve had that many times where it’s like, “Whoa. That was almost creepy how similar those births were,” and then to be able to connect and be like, “But look. They went on and they did it. This is what they did.” It’s so empowering. Just flipping through these beautiful pictures is absolutely stunning. Absolutely stunning pictures. I’m sure these stories are going to, again, relate to so many people out there that may not even know that they’re going to relate to them until they read them. Hazel: Yeah. I do mention in the– oh my gosh. I’m testing myself on which chapter that one’s in now. I think it might be Confidence about really relating to stories and listening to podcasts. I mention that you really need to tap into your peers because we have very large social media groups now and pages to follow full of positive VBAC stories. That’s important in there. I do also add there, it does say that the title is Birth After Cesarean. I do throughout the book look at, you are choosing the best birth for you. You need to prepare for both, but you may either have or choose a gentle Cesarean. There is a chapter in there as well about what a gentle Cesarean is, what evidence says, and maybe some of the things you might think of if you have a repeat Cesarean. There is that part of it as well because I explore how important it is to really if you’re going to be in control of everything or have more control, then you have to be aware of all options that might happen and be able to still have the best birth for you regardless of that outcome. Meagan: Yeah. We just posted– we reposted I should say– from Dr. Natalie Elphinstone. I think that is how you say it. Hopefully, I’m not butchering her last name. She’s from Australia actually. She’s an OB and she posted this video of a gentle Cesarean where the mom was actively involved in giving birth to her baby with her own hands. Hazel: Yeah. Meagan: For me in my Cesareans, both of them, my arms were strapped down in a T and after my second daughter was born, they undid the one arm and I did have skin-to-skin. I was able to hold her with that one arm, but watching this video was captivating. It’s a 30-second thing, but I watched it probably 40 times because I’m like, “Oh my gosh.” I looked at the mom. I looked at the baby. I looked at everyone around her. There was no curtain. She was able to be totally a part of her birth. I’m like, “Yes. This is what we need.” I literally texted a midwife here in Utah. I’m like “I know I’m a really small fish in a big ocean, but let me know if there’s anything I can do from my end to start bringing this option to people.” We got so many messages after like, “Whoa. How can I get that? What do I need to do?” It looks like in Australia, there are multiple videos of this happening. Hazel: I will add that it’s not common and it really does depend on who your OB is. Meagan: Exactly. Hazel: But a few years ago, one of my dear friends did her PhD as a video ethnography of skin-to-skin in theater. She was videoing Cesareans and seeing really what happens to what enables skin-to-skin in theater and what doesn’t. It was really fascinating. She was one of my PhD buddies. One of the Cesareans she saw was a gentle Cesarean with the woman reaching down to grab her baby. She wrote this beautiful article, but it was actually in a midwifery college magazine that doesn’t exist anymore. I could say that she had written it, but I couldn’t find my copy of it. I emailed because we are friends. I emailed her and I said, “Look. Do you have a PDF copy because I really want to read it?”She sent it to me. I read it. I wrote about it in that chapter and then I sent the chapter to her. I said, “Could you just read it to make sure that I’ve said all the right things?” because that’s her expert area. She was happy with what I had written, so that was good. Yeah. It really is down to providers. But really, the more women that ask for it, the more pressure there will be to explore it. There are a lot of resources and videos out there now that can show people how to do it. Meagan: And how to do it and that it is possible. Hazel: Yeah. Meagan: I think sometimes it’s like, “No. That’s impossible. It’s a sterile environment. We can’t have extra bodies in the operating room.” But look. Hazel: The woman’s already there. There’s not going to be an extra body. Meagan: Right. Hazel: And really, the ones that I’ve seen really, they will do the surgical scope with their hands. They will have double gloves on so when they get to the point of needing to reach down, they can take that first pair of gloves off, and then you’ve got the sterile ones on underneath. There are lots that can be done. Even just lowering the screen. There’s often still a screen there, but it’s lowered so they can reach down and then take the baby, and then it can go back up while they do the suturing. Meagan: Absolutely, yeah. Hazel: There are ways it can be done, but it’s just having people understand why. I remember being in an OB’s office with a client, a woman I was caring for. She was exploring her options after having a Cesarean. She mentioned having a gentle Cesarean. His attitude was, “Well, if I offer that, then nobody will want to plan a VBAC.” I was like, “That’s actually not going to happen. Don’t worry. It’s just giving an option to women. Women still really want to have a vaginal birth after Cesarean. That’s not going to go down. Your rates are not even that high anyways so don’t stress. This is what you can do to support them.” But yeah. That was an excuse for not wanting to go there because it sounds a little bit too hard. Meagan: Mhmm. Sarah: Yeah. That just goes back to sharing our stories too because I feel like without sharing those experiences like we were saying, you’re not going to know what your options are if you’re not being informed about them. If others are doing this and more people are asking for it, then it’s going to open that door and allow other people to be in control of what they want for their birth. Meagan: Exactly. Hazel: And throughout the book, it really is based on evidence. I am a researcher with a very large library of articles and I did dive into them. Straight after the trauma chapter, I go into what the evidence is for the different choices. I have a really deep dive into uterine rupture and then what was meant to be part of a chapter actually ended up on its own which was Can I Have a VBAC If…? and then I look into different scenarios or issues that potentially people will say, “Can I have a VBAC if I’ve got this?”So that is all evidence-based with numbers and going through what current data is out there. Meagan: Right. There are a lot of percentages in your book. I love it. There are graphs. You may not think that this may impact care, but she has this, it’s Figure 2 in the book. It’s talking about the length of time for pregnancy appointments under different models of care. You may not right now think the length of an appointment matters, but I can tell you right now firsthand from experience that when I had with my VBAC kiddo, I switched care at 24 weeks. I had an OB and he was great. I seriously loved the guy. He’s wonderful and I still think he’s wonderful. But then I switched care to a midwifery model-based care. The difference between my visits and again, OBs will spend time, but for me, the difference between my visits was incredible. I actually looked forward, really looked forward to visits with my midwife. I was always greeted with a ginormous hug. She never walked in without giving me a big hug and saying, “How are you doing? Really, how are you?” and then would sit down. We would just have a discussion. She became my best friend. I could just open up to her. She spent quality time. For me, it really helped me as I was entering into this next stage of birth to feel confident in her. I was so comfortable because of all the time that she spent with me. Hazel: I love that. I do love that graph. That came out of my VBAC in Australia survey. We asked what model of care they had and then I asked, “What was the time spent at your appointments?” When we looked at the data, it was just so obvious that the shorter time frame, so maybe 5-15 minutes was certainly with obstetric-led care, and then the 20 minutes plus– certainly, with the privately practicing midwives it was more, and then an hour usually was with the midwifery models of care. That was important because relationships take time. In that relationship factor, you need to have someone by your side who understands your wishes and your trauma if you have some which, as I said, ⅔ of women did, and understands what you want, what you are planning for, and what you are hoping for. Just understanding you and how you tick. Certainly, in my years as a continuity of care midwife, in all models of care, you really, for me as a midwife, I really want to know the person that I’m caring for so that I can see those changes, those really subtle changes in behavior even during labor and also you can pick up when things really aren’t quite right and that you might need an extra hug at that time or an extra kind word. Meagan: Yeah. Hazel: That takes a lot of trust. Relationships in healthcare, I believe, should be based on trust and equity. That takes time. The very simple graph, there’s no way I could have done an appointment in ten minutes because I have to have a cup of tea at least. There’s no way I could drink a cup of tea in just five or ten minutes. So sit down, have a cup of tea, and learn about what’s going on.The physical part, feeling the baby, the blood pressure, that you do at some point, but that to me, finding out what’s going on for the woman and how she’s feeling and what’s going on with the family, that is far more important. That takes time. When we saw that in the graph format, it was like, “Oh perfect. That exactly shows what we are saying.” A relationship takes time. Most of us don’t usually marry someone that we haven’t really or get into a relationship with someone that we haven’t spent a fair bit of time with and figured out whether we like them or not. We understand that those relationships are important. I think that when you are only doing something a few times in your life, but you will remember it for the rest of your life, then you really want to choose the team and the support people there. That includes your healthcare provider who completely knows you and completely understands where you’ve come from and where you want to go.Meagan: Oh my gosh. I love it. I feel like I could talk to you until 4:00 a.m. in Australia. Hazel: I’m wide awake now. Meagan: My family and I are getting ready. We are going on a trip this weekend. Your book is going to be in my hand the entire airplane ride there and back because I just want to soak in every single word that you wrote in this book. I am so excited. I definitely encourage everyone. I haven’t even read it yet, but I’ve skimmed it I should say. I started, but I haven’t had time to just sit down and read. It’s going to be amazing I can already tell just by browsing through this and listening to you.Oh my gosh. There is something that you say here. It’s in the very beginning. This is where I have stopped reading, but it was something that impacts me personally because I feel emotional. It’s kind of funny. I felt like this. I felt like a failure and I feel like there are so many times in life when we can– like you said, we beat ourselves up. If it’s not about our body, it’s about something else, but failure is a word that comes in. I actually have recently, today actually, it’s going to be launching. I recently made a reel about failure and how there is no such thing as failure, but this is something if you don’t mind, I’m going to quote you reading this book. It’s page 10 everybody if you have the book. “In this book, I will talk about planning an elective Cesarean, planning a VBAC, having an elective Cesarean, having a VBAC, or having a repeat emergency Cesarean. There is no failure. You haven’t failed if you choose one birth mode but have another. You are amazing and your choices are valid. Be true to you.” That, to me, is so powerful. “Be true to you.” And no, you did not fail no matter what birth mode you chose or what birth mode ended up happening, right? Don’t you feel that, Sarah?Sarah: Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think it touches back into the trauma too that maybe you are not aware of that you’ve experienced and really fear-clearing and taking the time to process your previous birth knowing that whatever the outcome is for your next journey, you’re not that failure. You’re fine and perfect. You’re enough. Hazel: Absolutely. Meagan: Mhmm. You are enough. Yes. Hazel: The research, when you read it, is really full of emotive damaging words when it comes to VBAC. Saying that women are a trial of scar or a trial of labor, we are not criminals for wanting to have a vaginal birth and when we use that language in research, then it means OBs and clinicians and nurses and midwives will use that language as well and tell you that you’re on trial. What do you imagine when you think of that? You’re not thinking about, “Is this uterine scar going to survive?” You get a feeling that you’re a criminal and you’re not just because you want to have a vaginal birth. I even challenge researchers. Take that language out. You don’t need it. It’s unnecessary. I’ve been writing a paper with some OBs over here recently and just saying, “I won’t be on it if you use the term ‘trial.’ I won’t be on it if you use the term ‘failed’ or ‘succeeded’. Just take the emotive words out and call it what it is.”We have to show by example as well and not have that language in the papers that are influencing policy, guidelines, and practitioners. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah: There is such power in the language and the words that we use. Absolutely. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Well, Hazel. It has been such an honor to chat with you. Like I said, I feel like we could go on and on and on. Maybe we just need to have you back on. Maybe we need to do something even bigger and do a webinar with you because you have such a wealth of knowledge and we’re so grateful for you. Like I said everybody, we will have the link for her book Birth After Cesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth in our show notes. So Hazel, before we go, do you want to share where everyone can find you? I’m going to be sharing you all over our social media as well. We’re going to have everything in the show notes, but tell people where we can find you. Hazel: Yeah, sure. I’m on Instagram at @hazelkeedle. I’m on Facebook at VBAC Matters or Hazel Keedle, VBAC Researcher. That’s where I share my book information but also future research that I’m doing as well. I’d love to come on and do a webinar with you and talk further about this anytime even at 2:00 in the morning. Meagan: Even at 2:00 in the morning! You are amazing. We are so grateful to you. Seriously, thank you so much, Hazel. Yeah. I can’t wait to share this episode with the world. Hazel: Thank you for having me. Sarah: You know, a lot of what we talk about in the episode is so important and so true to how I feel too. I think calling out trauma has been something that’s really near and dear to my heart and something that I had to do to prepare for my own VBAC, so I definitely recommend anybody that is going through this journey to make sure that you are taking the time to really heal from that previous birth and taking time to process and doing some fear clearing and even physical healing from the scar and doing scar massage and such like that. Also, I really think it’s important to find that support and build that relationship like Hazel was talking about. Make sure you have somebody that you are able to build a relationship with and feel comfortable with because that’s going to matter so much when it comes to your birth. And also, finding a doula that you have a good relationship with, not just your provider. I think those are really main things that I really try to instill in anyone that’s going for a VBAC. Meagan: Absolutely. I 100% agree and Sarah, we are so happy to have you in our VBAC Link doula community. Can you tell everybody where they can find you as well? Sarah: Yeah, sure. I am in Simpsonville, South Carolina. It’s in upstate South Carolina. More commonly, I guess you’d be familiar with Greenville, South Carolina. I am in that area. You can find me, mostly I hang out on Instagram, so either @sarah_marie_bilger or Entering Motherhood. You can find me there on Instagram. We’re actually planning on starting up local VBAC support groups.Meagan: Oh, amazing. Sarah: So if anybody is around and in the area and interested in doing that, there’s going to be me and another doula in the area. We’re excited to start that and really provide in-person support for people either that have had Cesareans, may be thinking of a VBAC, or really just any realm of Cesarean/VBAC. If you’ve already had your VBAC and you want to come share your story of success to motivate and help women that are preparing for it as well, we’re going to include story sharing and different topics to cover. Meagan: Absolutely amazing. Awesome, awesome. When all of that information is available if you wouldn’t mind shooting that over to us, we will make sure that the world knows that. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for co-hosting with me today. It was such an honor to have you. Sarah: Thanks for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“Trauma is anything that overwhelms your nervous system’s ability to cope.” On paper, Camden’s first birth went really well. It was an elective, scheduled C-section. There was no emergency. Her physical recovery was smooth. Yet Camden was later able to realize and admit that she was actually carrying significant emotional trauma from her birth. She often felt powerless, helpless, overwhelmed, and robbed of the birth experience her heart truly wanted. EMDR therapy not only helped Camden heal from her first birth, but also gave her the tools to cope during her second delivery through over four hours of pushing, severe postpartum hemorrhaging, and a tough recovery. Though her VBAC was much more dramatic on paper than her C-section, Camden hasn’t felt any emotional trauma this time! Her hard work was all worth it.   Additional linksThe VBAC Link Blog: All About Third Trimester UltrasoundsFind an EMDR TherapistThe VBAC Link Facebook CommunityHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Hello Women of Strength Wednesday. It is Meagan with The VBAC Link and we have our friend, Camden, here with you today. She is from Tennessee. Camden is amazing. She is a wife and a mother of two. She had a C-section with her first one and then had a VBAC. We’re going to have her story shared today. I’m so excited to have her share her story. She’s got a couple of things that really happen often. One with her first is the third-trimester ultrasound. If you have ever been told, “Hey, we’re going to do a third-trimester ultrasound and see how big your baby is or see what’s going on,” stick with us because that is common and at the end, we are going to go over some information on that. She also has an awesome thing that I think is added to her story. She went through EMDR therapy. I am very fascinated with this, so I cannot wait for her to share more. She’s actually a licensed clinical psychologist. Is that correct Camden?Camden: That’s right. Meagan: Perfect, yes. She has a private practice and is a coach, a writer, and a speaker. She specializes in women’s issues and relationships and faith. She is just a wealth of knowledge. I am so honored to have her here today and to be sharing her story. Review of the WeekMeagan: Of course, we have a Review of the Week. I’m going to dive into that and then we will get into the nitty-gritty of these beautiful stories. Today’s review is from Katelyn and I’m hoping that we did not read this review already. It was given just two weeks ago on Google. If you didn’t know, you can Google The VBAC Link and leave us a review there. We love your reviews. We know we say it all the time. I know I say it all the time. I don’t know when “I” is ever going to come naturally. It’s always “we”. I just miss my Julie. But we love reviews and we need your reviews to read on the podcast. So if you wouldn’t mind, drop us a review on Google, Apple Podcasts, social media, or anywhere and we would love to read your review on the podcast. Katelyn says, “I honestly can’t recommend The VBAC Link enough. I had my son via C-section in 2021 and even though I’m not pregnant with number two yet, I feel so ready and even excited for when that time comes because of all of the stories and education from The VBAC Link. I have been binging the podcast for the past couple of weeks and I have a note on my phone that is specifically for VBAC resources and education that has been mentioned on this podcast. “I am looking into providers and planning on starting interviewing some soon. I can’t tell y’all enough. Thank you for all that you do and I hope one day I can share my VBAC story.”I love that Katelyn. I love that you’re starting your journey even before you’re pregnant. I also did that. For me, it felt right and everyone has a different time that it feels right to start their journey and start their prep and interview providers. But for me, unfortunately, it took a while. I’m glad that I started that journey before I fell pregnant because I was able to really decipher who and what I wanted as well as what answers were truly something that I believed to be supportive. So congratulations on starting your journey and I too hope that you are with us one day to share your VBAC story. Camden’s StoryMeagan: Okay, Camden. Are you ready to share your stories? Camden: Yes, I’m ready. Meagan: Well, I’m ready to hear them and share them with the world. Go ahead. Camden: Okay, well thank you for having me on here, Meagan. I do a lot of podcast interviews for my work as a therapist and a coach but not a lot about me personally, so this is a little bit different for me. Meagan: Yeah, that’s awesome. Camden: Yeah. I am a licensed clinical psychologist but I’m really going to talk about my own personal experience here as a mom. As you said, I had my first child which is my daughter from a C-section in 2018, and then I had my son this February 2022 as a successful VBAC which was so exciting and felt so empowering. It just was a great experience. I knew as soon as I had my daughter from a C-section that I wanted to try for a VBAC, so I did a lot of preparation to get me there. Mostly just educating myself about how her birth as a C-section was unnecessary. As you said, I went into that third-trimester growth ultrasound. I was 36 weeks. That’s where they estimated her size. The ultrasound estimated that she already was 8 pounds at 36 weeks and that she was going to be about 10.5 pounds by the time I had her. They said at over 10 pounds, they recommend a C-section. Meagan: Yeah, and that number alone just saying, “Your baby could be 10-10.5 pounds.” You’re like, “What?” You know, that’s overwhelming too to hear as a mom. Camden: Yeah and I didn’t realize how off those estimates could be at the time. They did tell me, “Oh, it could be off about a pound either way. She actually could be a pound bigger.”Meagan: Uh-huh. Camden: Yeah, and as a first-time mom, my husband and I were just freaked out. They told me, “You could get 3rd or 4th-degree tears. You could have shoulder dystocia. She could get stuck and not have oxygen to the brain.” Just all kinds of problems that they said could happen if I tried to have a vaginal birth with her. So from 36 weeks on, I was a basket case. I had a lot of anxiety. I went in at 39 weeks to have another ultrasound and that was when they said she was estimated to be about 10.5 pounds, so we went ahead and scheduled a C-section, but very begrudgingly. I don’t feel like they forced me to, but yet they had some really strong words to say. We spoke with several different doctors at our practice and one of them said, “At this point, the risks of having a vaginal birth are higher than the risk of a C-section with her.” One said, “If this were my wife, I would recommend that she would have a C-section.”Meagan: Ugh, I hate those comments. Camden: Yeah. One doctor said, “Maybe you could try for a vaginal birth and maybe she won’t be as big and it will be fine, but if something bad happens, you never forgive yourself.”Meagan: Mmm. Mmm. Camden: I was just thinking, “Yeah, I couldn’t live with myself if something bad did happen to her because I was stubborn and tried to have her vaginally.” And so we went ahead and scheduled the C-section on her due date. I did not go into labor at all. I didn’t have contractions or anything like that. The C-section went fine. She was healthy. She was 9 pounds, 2 ounces, so she was over a pound less than what they estimated, although still on the bigger side of things. She was healthy. I was healthy. They had thought I had gestational diabetes and I had been tested so many times. I did not have it, so there was really no explanation for why she was a little bit on the bigger side. Not a family history of it, nothing I did because I kept feeling like I did something wrong. I have PCOS, so that does make you a little bit more at risk for developing gestational diabetes, but they tested me many times and I did not have it. I was relieved when she was born healthy and everything went fine, but then I had breastfeeding difficulties. I had a low milk supply and they encouraged me to supplement in the hospital because she had lost weight. It was like, first the problem was that she was too big and now she is losing too much weight. It all really psychologically affected me. Even though everything was healthy and safe and there were no complications, and my recovery was also pretty good, I still felt psychologically traumatized from the experience. Meagan: Mhmm. Well, and then you felt as though, and this is what my perception of it is, you felt as though you must place blame on yourself for that. You were searching for this reason when like you said, it just happens. Sometimes babies grow bigger. It just happens. Camden: Yeah, and I also had this sense, “This is so unfair because I’ve done everything right.” I stayed active during my pregnancy. I watched what I ate in moderation. I took my medication for PCOS. I managed everything and stayed healthy and tried to do everything right, and still just didn’t get the birth experience I wanted. And then with the breastfeeding difficulties and low supply persisted, so we supplemented her with formula throughout her life. To keep breastfeeding and pumping with me going back to work and everything I managed to do for 8 or 9 months makes me proud that I kept up with it for that long with her, but all of that contributed to developing postpartum depression/anxiety. Like I said, I am a psychologist and therapist. I do therapy in private practice, so I was familiar with those signs and that that is a common occurrence, but as a first-time mom, I didn’t realize that it was more than the baby blues. I was crying every day for several weeks after her birth. I felt like a failure. I felt not good enough. I just really grieved my birth experience and also grieved my life before becoming a mom. Even though I loved her, it was just so much responsibility, such a huge life change, and an identity change. It was just a really tough transition. Meagan: You know, I feel like I can relate to that so much. It’s not that I didn’t love being a mom and having that role, but the identity change was weird. I was like, “Who am I? Am I mom? Am I Meagan? Am I the return-to-work coordinator at my work? Who am I?” It can really throw you. Camden: Yeah, my career had always been so important to me and that had always been where a lot of my identity and value came from, so being on maternity leave was really weird. I went back to work after 8 weeks which now, I wish I had taken more time, but I was almost relieved to go back to work and feel like, “I know what I’m doing here. I’m valuable here and I don’t feel like a failure all of the time,” like I did at home breastfeeding and being a new mom. So that was my first birth experience. Yeah. I struggled with postpartum depression and anxiety for quite a while. It took me almost a year before I started seeing a therapist myself who specialized in postpartum mental health. I also took antidepressant medication to help with my mood too. That helped a lot, but really just giving myself time to adjust to being a new mom too. Meagan: Good for you. Camden: Like I said, I knew I wanted to have a VBAC, so we waited quite a while to try getting pregnant with our second. Of course, the pandemic happened during all of that. I got laid off from the job I was at. I was a college professor when I had my daughter and I got laid off from that, then transitioned to private practice. So starting a new job, all of that led to us waiting a little bit longer than we had planned. But as soon as I got pregnant, we interviewed doulas and I switched practices to stay with the gynecologist who had been treating my PCOS for a long time, but who had left the practice I had been at for my first birth. I switched to that practice and I just did a lot of research. I’m somebody who likes to be really prepared. I listened to your podcast a lot which was really helpful. I read a lot of books and had my doula as support. Yeah, I listened to your podcast. I started seeing a Webster chiropractor and just really advocated for the birth experience I wanted. I was very clear with my OB that I wanted to try for a VBAC. That was my intention. Setting that goal for myself and putting in as much preparation as I could really helped me feel more empowered. I started going to EMDR therapy. I was still seeing my therapist who specializes in postpartum and maternal mental health, but she did not provide EMDR therapy and I actually do not either. It’s something that requires specialized training and certification. It stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing or EMDR. It’s really the most effective treatment for trauma and one of the most popular ones right now, one of the most requested ones. It’s in high demand. My regular therapist referred me to someone for EMDR and I started doing that, but I’m not knowing what to expect. It ended up being, I think, the number one key to my healing from my first birth experience and setting me up for success with my VBAC. Even more than having a doula, as wonderful as she was, and even more than– I took a HypnoBirthing class. Those things were all great, but I really attribute my mindset success to the EMDR. Meagan: What do you feel like a part of this program and this therapy, what do you feel impacted you the most? Was it processing? Accepting? Camden: Yeah, so EMDR is a unique treatment in that you really don’t verbally process your trauma experience a lot. You don’t have to talk about it a lot which is good for people who feel uncomfortable talking about it. It’s really working with brain science to help your brain process the trauma. When it feels stuck in a certain spot, it involves bilateral brain stimulation meaning both hemispheres of the brain, and so I wore these headphones that played sounds in each of my ears going back and forth while the therapist would prompt me to think about times during my birth or to think about statements I believed about myself like, “I am a failure,” and then replacing them with statements like, “I did everything the best that I could. I am the best mother for my baby.” Things like that. Yeah, so it’s really working the sides of your brain without a lot of verbal processing, but a big healing part of it for me was actually admitting that my birth was traumatic. I had a hard time just even admitting that because nobody was hurt. Nobody came close to death. She was fine. It wasn’t an emergency C-section. It was scheduled, so I thought, “There are people that have such worse experiences than me. I can’t call this a traumatic birth experience.”But for me, it was because it overwhelmed my ability to cope. That’s really what we now understand as trauma is anything that overwhelms your nervous system’s ability to cope. It left me with these feelings of powerlessness and helplessness and fear which is what trauma does. You have this sense of, “I’m helpless. I’m not in control.” I felt powerless and just a lot of fear. Owning that it was a traumatic experience for me helped put words to it, processing it in EMDR, and then coming up with new ways of how I wanted to cope in my VBAC was a key part of the therapy too. Meagan: I just love that. I actually don’t think I realized that it’s not talking it out. I thought it was finding the trigger and then working through that verbally, so I am learning. I’m learning. This is awesome. Camden: Yeah. Most therapy is talk therapy and that’s what I do myself as a therapist. It’s processing your memories, talking about them with a therapist, and looking at stuck points or thoughts that are keeping you stuck and replacing those with healthier thoughts. So EMDR does a little bit of that, but it’s really not as verbal. It’s really not telling all of the details of your trauma to the therapist, but thinking about them while you allow your brain to process them. Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say that I’m learning it’s a tool. Learning how to by yourself, solo, work through those, and then learning how to even find out what is triggering or what is affecting you. That’s awesome. Cool. Camden: Yeah. Toward the end of my treatment, before I was due, we worked on setting a future template. That’s what she called it. “How do I want to cope and what do I want to think and believe about myself in my future births?” The one that hadn’t happened yet. We did some, “What if I do need a C-section? How am I going to cope with that? What if there is an emergency situation and I’m separated from my husband and my doula? What do I want to believe in how I cope?” That ended up being really helpful in my birth experience. Meagan: Yeah, I think that’s good. I think sometimes we shy away from the what if’s or other scenarios because we don’t want to think of those. We don’t want to bring those into the atmosphere. We don’t want to bring those into our space, but sometimes it’s really good to plan for X, Y, and Z scenarios. Camden: Yeah, for me, I’m already a worst-case scenario type of thinker, so we didn’t go worst, worst case. We didn’t go death, but we did process like I said, if something does go off plan or if I’m separated from my husband, and yeah. That ended up helping because that did happen at my birth. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Camden: So bringing me up to my VBAC now. I went into it with three words of how I wanted to feel. I wanted to feel calm, empowered, and prepared. The preparation was all of the reading, courses, and therapy I did. The empowered– I wanted to speak up and advocate for myself and I wanted to feel calm. I did HypnoBirthing. I had tracks playing during it and I just wanted to really be focused and calm about everything. Meagan: I love that. Camden: I think I was able to. Meagan: I absolutely love that. So you just picked those three words and defined them. Camden: Yeah. Those were the three words for me. I was a few days overdue and I had listened to all of your episodes about due dates, so I was getting a little anxious about, “Oh no. If I’m induced, that’s going to lower my chances of success.” I was getting a little anxious and nervous about it, but I did agree to a membrane sweep when I was 40+3 days. That ended up, I think, doing the trick because the next day, I went into labor. I saw the doctor on a Wednesday and did the membrane sweep. On Thursday, I was in early labor all day at home. You know, it was every 30 minutes or so, and I was tracking and telling my doula what was going on, but I was still walking around the house and doing stuff. We decided to call my parents to come to spend the night with us in case something happened during the night and then the contractions definitely intensified Thursday night and all through the night. I did my HypnoBirthing breathing during the night during my contractions at home. And then Friday morning, I was in my bathtub at home and my water broke. Yeah. I was going through contractions at home. My water broke, and so at that point, we did go to the hospital. Of course, I wanted to wait as long as possible, but when that happened, we felt like it was time. We called my doula. We called my OB, so we went in then which was a Friday morning. Meagan: Were things picking up more actively or just went in because of that? Camden: Yeah, I would definitely say it was more active. I was having to concentrate and breathe more through them. They were a little bit closer together. They still weren’t probably as close as we had planned, but it seemed to progress fairly fast at that point. Yeah. We went to the doctor. I declined the cervical check because I did not want to know how many centimeters I was dilated. I knew that was just either going to frustrate me and discourage me later on or give me false hope. I don’t know. I just didn’t want to know. Meagan: Well, and it doesn’t really matter. It really doesn’t. You’re in labor. You’re going to have a baby. Your body will tell you when it’s time to have a baby. Camden: Yeah and I was not in a hurry. I just wanted to stay calm and let things come as they came, but the funny thing was when we checked in to the hospital, we had called ahead of time of course, so when we checked in, they said, “Oh, you’re here for the TOLAC” and I said, “No. We are here for a VBAC. We are VBACing.” Meagan: I know, right? We talk about this. We actually talk about this in our birth course about TOLAC versus VBAC and just the terminology. You’re like, “No. I’m here to VBAC.” Sometimes, that can really actually throw someone off. It can really throw them off because they are like, “Well, no,” because trying, right? I love that you were like, “No. I’m here to VBAC.” You pushed it aside. Push it aside and be like, “Okay, I get that that’s what you guys call it from a medical standpoint. A TOLAC, a trial of labor after a Cesarean, but I’m here to VBAC, so I’m just going to keep saying that.” Camden: Right, yeah. I was very determined and yeah. I labored with my husband, my doula, and a really supportive nurse by my side. She was assigned to us, the nurse, and it ended up being the same nurse who was there when I had my C-section with my daughter in 2018. That felt really redemptive to me because she had actually been really supportive during my C-section, and so kind, so being able to see her and be there with her and her being a part of that experience. She didn’t even remember us but my husband and I remembered her. That was just really cool being able to come–Meagan: Some familiarity too and it was a positive part of your last birth. Camden: It was, yeah. The hospital I was at had one room with a tub, so I requested that room. I got it which was so exciting, but then they saw meconium, is that what it’s called? Meagan: Yeah, in the water. Meconium is baby poop. It’s actually a very common thing. We actually had a mom the other day write us and say, “Hey, I had a C-section because when my water broke, there was light meconium.” I was like, “Oh, that’s actually pretty common.”Camden: Yeah, yeah. They saw that, so they would not let me get in the tub because of that. I guess because of the increased risk of infection. Meagan: Yeah. Every hospital has its different policies. Yeah. Camden: That was a bummer because I was really looking forward to that. I had used the tub weekly if not more than that at my home during the late weeks of my pregnancy when my back was really killing me and stuff, so that had been very common for me. I did use the shower a little bit. I tried laughing gas, the nitrous oxide. I tried that and I could just not get the hang of it really. The timing of when to breathe it in and the contractions and everything, I just didn’t quite get the hang of that. Meagan: Yeah. I used that for my VBAC as well and everyone was like, “Oh, it was working.” I just remember feeling sleepy in between the contractions, but now that I look back I’m like, “Oh yeah, I guess.” I think I should have started when I started feeling them versus when it started hurting. Camden: Right, yeah. I just couldn’t get the timing right and of course, at that point, you’re just frustrated in many ways and not thinking clearly, so I kind of gave up on that. I did get checked and I was 6.5 I think at that point, maybe 7 centimeters. Meagan: That’s great. Camden: Yeah. At that point, I did get an epidural. I had been open to it either way. I didn’t go in dead set on an unmedicated birth, but I didn’t go in dead set on one either. I was just kind of, “We’ll see.” I ended up getting one. I don’t regret it. With the epidural I got, I still had some feeling. I could still move around and get on all fours and move side to side, so I wasn’t just flat on my back. I was using the birthing bar on the bed and I could feel when a contraction was coming on, so I asked for uncoached pushing, so I pushed on my own. Yeah. I didn’t regret getting it. I think it ended up working out getting the epidural. Meagan: Yeah, a lot of people say, “I don’t feel like I can VBAC if I don’t get an epidural,” which, it’s just simply not true. People have VBACs with epidurals all the time. You just have to do what’s best for you. It’s a great tool if that’s a tool that you are needing or desiring. Just know it’s there and if you use it, great. If you don’t, great. It is what it is. Use it if you need to. There’s no judgment. There’s no failing. But with epidurals, we have this weird stigma of failing if we get an epidural. I’m like, “Can we please stop? Can we stop?” because it was a great decision it sounds like. Camden: Yeah, I think sometimes there is a badge of honor if you had a “natural” birth. I call it unmedicated, not natural. Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Camden: I didn’t feel that way. I was open either way. Yeah. At that point, I had been pushing for a really long time. The doctor who was on call– that was the bad thing about the OB practice was that whoever delivered you was whoever was on call. It wasn’t my regular OB that I knew and trusted. The one who was on-call said, “You’ve been pushing for a really long time. Your contractions have really slowed down, so we want to give you some Pitocin to pick them back up.”They did that and they did pick back up a little bit. I mean, I was really chill. I was doing my HypnoBirthing, my breathing baby down birthing, and uncoached pushing, and the doctor was like, “No. You need to let your nurse coach you. You need to hold your breath and push,” because, in HypnoBirthing, you don’t hold your breath, you breathe down. Meagan: Yeah. J breathing.Camden: Yes. Yes. Yeah, so they wanted me to switch it up and I was okay, but they were like, “You’ve been at this for a really long time.” It had been four hours at that point. I tried it just to see, doing a little bit of a more hold your breath pushing and then went back to my breathing pushing, so I just mixed it up. But yeah. So after four hours of pushing, he finally came out. It was so empowering to feel him come out. Even with the epidural, I could feel the head come out, and then I felt the rest of the body. They immediately put him on my chest and it was just the wonderful moment that I had been waiting for. That was the moment I felt like I had been robbed of my daughter with the C-section, just being able to hold him right away, and yeah. It just felt so gratifying to be able to do that, to have him on my chest right away, and to know he was safe and to know that I did it. Meagan: Absolutely. I can hear the emotion in your voice just right now. It really is. It’s an amazing moment and like you were saying too with an epidural, you can still feel things. There are still pressures. There are still sensations, so it’s really awesome that you got to feel that and redeem that moment that you didn’t get to have last time and have that redemption birth. Camden: Yes. Yeah. My husband and I had already decided that this was our last baby too. It was my first and my last vaginal birth experience, so I really wanted that moment. He was fine. After that, I started hemorrhaging. Meagan: Yes, from pushing for a while? Camden: They thought it could have been from pushing for a long time. I also had second-degree tears so they were stitching that up, but then, of course, the doctor was also concerned about uterine rupture because of all of the bleeding and couldn’t get it under control, so they said, “We’re going to move you to another room where they have better lighting and your husband and doula can’t come with you.” That’s why I said I’m glad I prepared for that moment with EMDR because I was able to try to stay calm and remind myself of the words and phrases we had practiced. “I’m safe. I am cared for. These people are all here to take care of me. I’m not alone.” I just kept repeating those to myself as I was not without my support team. Meagan: Did they take you to the OR?Camden: Yeah, I think so. They were stitching and trying to control the bleeding, so at that point, I would have had an epidural even if I hadn’t already had one, so that’s why I said that I didn’t regret it. That was one of the other reasons. I was back there, it felt like a long time to me, but my husband said maybe 30 minutes or so. They kept saying, “I don’t know. We might have to open her up. It might be a uterine rupture.” I literally said, “You guys aren’t going to tell me. I just had a healthy baby and you’re still going to open me up?” The whole goal of this was to not have surgery. Meagan: Yeah. Camden: I said, “Can’t you do an ultrasound? Can you look at it?” So they did. They did do an ultrasound. They did not have to open me up thankfully, but they did this thing where they put a balloon up inside. To control the bleeding, they had to put a balloon and I had to keep that in until the next day. Yeah, so that was really unpleasant. Meagan: Yeah. That is a hard way to end. Being taken away and having that issue. I also had some weird things. I had some weird bleeding after and it was frustrating to feel like, “I just had this amazing birth.” Camden: I know. Meagan: And then you had this weird ending that was maybe less than ideal, but I mean, look at all that you did before and what it did for you. It prepared you for that very moment and you were probably meant to go through that for some reason so you could help your patients down the road, connect with someone, or share here on this story so someone is like, “Oh, I had that moment too.” It’s okay to be bummed that that happened and to be happy for your VBAC. Sometimes things like that happen. Just like every C-section is not butterflies, sometimes every VBAC doesn’t have all of the warm, fuzzy butterflies, right? There are little things here and there that happened. I’m so sorry that you did have that happen, but I’m proud of you for staying strong and still carrying on your words. You advocated for yourself. “Can we just do an ultrasound instead?” You carried on those three words the whole time. Camden: Yeah. Meagan: That’s something hard to do when you’re alone, so you can be proud of yourself for sure for that. Camden: Yeah. I did. I stayed calm and I had prepared for that moment. You’re right. I did feel empowered still that I could speak up and advocate for myself and ask questions. Yeah. I don’t carry the same trauma over that moment even though maybe on paper it seems scarier than my C-section. Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say that. If you look at it then you’re like, “Okay, scheduled C-section, healthy baby, everything’s good,” but then with this one, “pulled away from her support team, by herself, had this procedure done,” it sounds bigger and scarier. Camden: Yeah, I think because my baby was right there and he was fine, that gave me a lot of reassurance and I think yeah. The preparation and those phrases of, “I am cared for. I’m not alone. All of these people here are taking care of me.” Just reminding myself of that as there are a dozen people all looking at your vagina. Meagan: I know, right? Camden: It just helps to remind yourself that they are all here to take care of me. Yeah, so the bleeding, they eventually got it under control. I was able to recover and didn’t have to have a blood transfusion or anything like that, but it did make my recovery more challenging. I think that was my biggest surprise with the VBAC. I had expected the recovery to be so much easier than a C-section recovery. That’s what I had always heard. For me, it wasn’t. It was probably smaller amounts of pain drawn out for a longer amount of time if that makes sense. Meagan: Yeah, totally. Camden: Yeah, my C-section was more intense pain but a shorter amount of time. The VBAC was, it was hard to sit. It was hard to stand because of the tearing and the swelling. I had a ton of swelling from pushing for four hours, and then I was just weak and low energy because of losing so much blood, so I had to take iron and rebuild that backup. It took a lot longer, I think, to physically heal myself again. But emotionally, I was so much better. I was not crying every day. I was not feeling like I don’t know who I am. The transition emotionally for me was so much easier even though I did have some breastfeeding challenges again. It was a low milk supply and I just did all of the things to try to help that. With my first baby, I did them all again with my second and then some. Nothing really seemed to make a difference, so I just had to come to peace with it and accept that, and grieve that my breastfeeding journey was not as I would have liked. But yeah. All in all, I would definitely not trade my VBAC for it. It was so worth it and so empowering. Yeah. Just how I was doing emotionally afterward was a world of difference from my first birth experience. Meagan: Yeah. Well, congratulations. So happy for you. So so happy for you. It’s crazy. It’s crazy how everything can just unfold and like you said, you would expect to bounce back with a VBAC and sometimes you don’t. Camden: Yeah, I think that’s helpful to know. I mentioned that in The VBAC Link Community Facebook group. I shared my story there and I’ve mentioned that to people. Don’t think that something is wrong with you if your recovery is harder or in a different way than your first birth. It’s okay. I’m doing pelvic floor PT again, so that’s definitely helped from some of the pain from the tears. I definitely recommend that. But yeah. It’s been such an empowering experience overall. Good. Well, I’m so happy for you. I want to talk a little bit about our blog that talks about the third trimester, all about baby weight prediction and third-trimester ultrasounds because you did have that. Like you said, it wasn’t like they said, “Baby is 8 pounds right now,” and then your baby came out 6 pounds. You know, baby was growing and it was somewhat accurate. That’s the hardest thing with these ultrasounds. They can be somewhat accurate, but they can also be really far off. I was just going to list a couple of reasons why a care provider may suggest a third-trimester ultrasound. One, because during the 20-week ultrasound which is the big anatomy one where a lot of people find out the gender although people are finding out the gender at 8, 9, and 10 weeks now, but at that one, sometimes the placenta is positioned low and covering the cervix, or called placenta previa. They are going to want to make sure that the placenta did in fact make its way up and get away from the opening of the cervix. That is a valid reason for an ultrasound. That’s a really good reason because if the placenta for some reason did stay and cover the cervix, it needs to be a C-section. We can’t have a baby vaginally for that reason. Confirming position. Maybe if we are unable to tell or we are suspecting baby is breech or transverse, that may be something to do. Or if maybe baby was breech and then they did a version and wanted to confirm that baby was head down, that would be a reason. Failed a non-stress test. If there was for some reason there was a non-stress test, which, I’m also learning that some people are getting a million non-stress tests during pregnancy for no real crazy reasons, but if your provider ordered a non-stress test for a medical reason and it was nonreassuring, sometimes they may do an ultrasound to check everything and check fluid and things like that. But yeah. They can be effective for monitoring baby’s weight and some medical concerns, but they can be super inaccurate and like you were saying, it can be up to 1-2 pounds plus or minus. So when we hear, “You’re baby is probably going to be 10 pounds,” and you’re like, “Wait, larger?” Because there was one time I went to an ultrasound with a client and they did say that her baby was 10 pounds. She was like, “Wait. My baby could be bigger than 10 pounds?” It’s very scary and very daunting. So yeah. If your provider is suggesting a third-trimester ultrasound, it’s okay to question. It’s okay to say, “Hey, I don’t want to,” or “Why are we doing this?” and then for them to just schedule a C-section even just without really inducing too, those are not great things. Those are not great reasons. You never even got to labor. Did they even say, “Hey, let’s try?” They didn’t say anything like that? Or was it that you opted for it because you were nervous about that?Camden: No, they really presented it as the best option because I asked, “Is an induction an option?” They said, “No. We wouldn’t induce a big baby.” Meagan: Mmm. Camden: I said, “Well, what if I just wait?” But at this point, it was a couple of days before my due date and they checked my cervix. I wasn’t dilated and of course, now I know that doesn’t necessarily mean anything, but at the time, I was thinking, “Oh my gosh. I could be a week away and she’s just going to get bigger.” Meagan: Right. Camden: Yeah, so it really was presented as the best option, but if I knew then what I know now, I think I would have just waited. Meagan: Yeah. Waiting it out or maybe opting for a slow gentle induction and just because the cervix isn’t dilated doesn’t mean they can’t do anything to help get baby here. Oh, man. Yeah. It’s a hard one. It’s a hard one, but like you said and the same thing for me, I wish I knew then what I know now, but I don’t and now I’ve grown and now I’ve got these journeys that I can share. I mean, that’s why I’m here. Right? That’s why I’m doing what I’m doing because I’ve been through that and I want to help people know so they don’t necessarily always say, “I wish I knew then what I know now.” Right? Camden: Right. Meagan: Let’s just know now. Let’s learn now. Yeah, well thank you so much for sharing your stories, and congratulations again. You got me all tingly in the eyes hearing your emotion. You are just amazing and I am so grateful for you being with us today. Camden: Thank you. I wanted to just share a resource if anyone wants to look for an EMDR therapist, you can go to emdria.org. It stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing International Association. Meagan: Whoa! Camden: They have a Find an EMDR Therapist link there. Meagan: That was a tongue twister. That’s amazing. I don’t even know how you just said that all. I mean, I can barely read a review on a podcast like that. That was amazing. Okay. Would you mind emailing us that and we will make sure that we will include that in the show notes? Camden: Sure. Meagan: That would be awesome. Well, thank you again, and have a wonderful day. Camden: Thank you, Meagan. Bye. Meagan: Bye. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

For her first three births, doctors refused to allow Rachel to go into labor and pushed for scheduled C-sections. Rachel knew the risks involved with being plus-sized and potentially having large babies, but she just wanted someone to give her a chance. With her fourth pregnancy, Rachel knew she needed to pursue birth on her own terms. She found a supportive community, prepared with extensive research, and hired a very experienced, VBAC-friendly home birth midwife. After weeks of prodromal labor, Rachel was able to deliver her baby girl at home without any complications. She finally felt safe and protected in her birthing space. Rachel found redemption, healing, and confidence both in her body and in herself.Additional linksThe VBAC Link Blog: Plus Size BirthThe VBAC Link Facebook CommunityHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Whatever time it is where you are listening, welcome to The VBAC Link. This is Meagan and I just can’t even begin to tell you about this episode that is coming your way. You guys are going to love it. Like, seriously love it. As we were talking a little bit before we started recording, I was dying. I was sitting here taking notes. Let me just tell you, our friend Rachel here has been through so much. Everything. I mean, seriously. There are all of the things. Plus-sized mama, a big baby, VBAC after three C-sections. I should say HBAC after three C-sections. Let’s see. A bait and switch. So many things, oh my gosh. So many things. I’m not going to take too much time right now because I really want to turn the time over to her. Just in the ten minutes that I was talking to her a little bit about her stories, I was dying. I was dying. I was like, “Okay. We have to start her recording because everyone needs to hear this.” Review of the WeekMeagan: We are going to dive into it, but of course, I have a Review of the Week. If you have not had a moment to leave us a review, we would love it. We would absolutely love it. You can leave a review on Apple Podcasts and Google Play. I think maybe Spotify. You can email us at [email protected]. You can just Google us. Send us a message on Instagram or Facebook. Wherever it may be, we would love your reviews and we would love to read them on the podcast. Today’s review is from Kim.Aboo and this is on Apple Podcasts. Her topic is “Prepping for My VBAC.” It says, “My first pregnancy, I elected for a C-section for my twins. In my second current pregnancy, I was very indecisive on whether I wanted to VBAC or not. My provider actually brought it up to me. Upon doing more research, I came across The VBAC Link’s Insta. At 22 weeks pregnant, I decided that I’m going to VBAC. In one of your episodes, the mom said, ‘I had to trust my body. Know you can do it and believe in yourself.’ That empowered me and I told myself, ‘I can do it.’“I have been listening to all of the episodes ever since, doing the research, prepping my body through exercise, squats, chiropractic care, and everything else I have heard. I am excited and I look forward to it. My baby is due in August and I will let you know how it goes. I have to say thank you, thank you, thank you for your podcast, Insta page, and the wealth of information you share.” Well, thank you, Kim. And guess what? It’s actually August right now as we are recording, so Kim, if you are still listening, we would love to know how the birth went either way. This is one thing I want to emphasize about this podcast. Yes, we are sharing stories about VBAC and we encourage VBAC. We want people to know their options about VBAC. However, we also know that CBACs happen and that is okay too. Sometimes, we also know that they are desired and that is also okay too. I just want you to know that if you have a CBAC, we still want to share your story. We still want to hear your story and we want you to know that you are a woman of strength. We are so happy for you and proud of you. Rachel’s StoryMeagan: Okay, Rachel. I am so excited. I’m not kidding you. I saw your post. It kind of went viral on all sorts of pages and I was like, “She has to. She has to be on the podcast.” I got chills reading and like I was telling you before we started recording, I can’t wait to hear it from your, from your voice, and from yourself because I feel like when you are reading it, you put your own emotion and emphasis and tone into it, but I can’t wait to hear yours. And then like I said, just before we were recording, listening to all of the things you’ve been through. You are flipping incredible. I just want you to know that I am so honored that you are here with us today to share your stories. So without further ado, I’m going to turn the time over for you to blow everyone’s minds. Rachel: All righty. So a little introduction of myself, my name is Rachel Richard. I currently live in Oklahoma. I was born and raised here. I’ve been married to my husband, Dennis, now for going on 8 and a half years. We’ve known each other for about ten and we just had our fourth little baby on August 6th. I should say, big baby, not little. Meagan: A perfect, perfect-sized baby. Rachel: Yes. So a little back story on how I came to my fourth home birth after 3 C-sections. My very first one, I was 20 years old. It was my first pregnancy. I had a great pregnancy. It was very normal with no complications at all. But come 40 weeks and 2 days, I had my routine weekly checkup with my OB and they started noticing that my blood pressure was slightly elevated. Nothing concerning, but they did test my urine and I did have protein in my urine. The fear-mongering started. He brings me into his office which is outside of regular exam rooms. It was just his office. We sat down, my husband and I, and he basically says that with my weight and the fact that I wasn’t dilated at 40 weeks and 2 days that it would more or less be an uphill battle for labor. Our induction methods, I guess, would be limited based on what he was telling me because I wasn’t dilated. By then, I was over being pregnant. It was my first pregnancy. I didn’t really know that having one C-section would lead to the cascade of issues I’ve had since then so, unfortunately, I was like, “Yeah. Let’s have a baby!” Two and a half hours later after my appointment, he quote-on-quote “fit me in after the twins”, so I literally drove directly from the doctor’s office to the hospital and they started prepping me, essentially, for the delivery. Completely no complications. It was a great delivery. I had no negative feelings toward it. I was happy I had a baby. I had a great recovery. I was up and doing everything normal after baby. Probably within two weeks, I felt like it was great. I do have an apron belly, so I did have some discomfort. I couldn’t lay on my side and things like that. I basically lived in the recliner for the first few weeks which is fine, but a great baby. She was only 6 pounds, 9 ounces. Meagan: Oh, teeny. Rachel: She was tiny. I was a 10-pound baby. All my mom’s babies were 10 pounds, so we were expecting a larger baby, but all of her ultrasounds were in the office by my OB, so I never had an actual tech do any of those, so all of his measurements were not accurate. He stopped measuring her at 34 weeks or whatever because she was just in weird positions. We don’t really know when she stopped growing or if she really tracked to be that small. Not really sure. It is possible that I did have preeclampsia and she did have some delayed growth there, but who’s to say? Maybe she’s just a small baby. But anyways, other than her size, it was a great pregnancy. She was healthy. We had some breastfeeding issues, but otherwise, she was great. Fast forward to my second pregnancy, they are 2 years and 10 days apart, so I waited for a little over 15 months and got pregnant with my second. Great pregnancy. I was actually researching midwives and got turned away from several midwife groups due to my BMI which I understood. It wasn’t a big deal. They have regulations they have to follow. It’s whatever, but they did refer me to a VBAC-friendly, size-friendly provider. I had a great experience with her. I still like her to this day. I just have some issues with the end of my pregnancy because I was bait and switched, unfortunately. I was one of those people that had a great experience, was told I was going to have this most amazing VBAC ever, and then come 38 weeks, she pulls out her VBAC Calculator online. Just that, “Your chances of a VBAC are less than 25%.” Blah, blah, blah all because of my weight, I would need a C-section.Meagan: You’re 38 weeks. At 38 weeks. Rachel: Yeah, and then she was like, “Well, and I like my VBAC moms to deliver by 39 weeks and you haven’t started dilating yet.” Basically the same spiel as the first one that my chances are a lot lower because my body isn’t ready, blah blah blah. He was also larger. I was seeing a perinatologist the entire time because of my suspected preeclampsia that happened two hours before my first child’s delivery. That is tracked on all of my records, so they had me see that doctor just to make sure I didn’t have it again. I didn’t. I had to take a lot of their testing more than once because I feel like they were looking for an issue based on my weight, that I was going to have gestational diabetes or preeclampsia or whatever and I never had any of that. It was a perfect pregnancy, a perfect baby, and never had any issues. I did have a lot of NSTs and a lot of ultrasounds with that pregnancy. All of that was normal. Meagan: Do you feel like looking back that those were maybe some red flags or do you feel like they were all warranted? Rachel: Going from my third pregnancy, honestly, that was the reason. They were unwarranted. I felt like they were excessive and unnecessary. Meagan: Yes. That’s a lot. Rachel: I get it that you are wanting to do that, but once you start to see that there’s nothing wrong, I feel like they should have stopped and I felt like they got more frequent. In several of the appointments, I intentionally didn’t go because I was just like, “I literally had one a week before and everything was fine. I feel fine and nothing has changed,” kind of things. It was really more annoying to me because I wasn’t working at the time, but I had another child at home who was less than two years old and I had to find childcare because my husband was working or bringing her with me which is chaos. That was very annoying and that’s kind of what led me to my fourth being unassisted was the delivery of my second. Basically, at 38 weeks, she was like, “You are not dilated. I’ll have you come in again and we’ll check you at 38.5.” It was a Monday at 38 weeks, and then on Friday, she checked me again. Of course, nothing had changed magically in 5 days. So she was like, “I like to deliver by 39 weeks.” Blah, blah, blah. I was just like, “Are you serious? I don't have a chance?” I cried in her office and I was very upset because I felt like I was bait and switched.I didn’t know that terminology at the time, but I was like, “You’ve been telling me all of these rainbows and butterflies for the last 38 weeks and now the whole script has changed.” I was just very blindsided by it. There was a term I used to use and I can’t remember what I used to say. It will probably come to me in a little bit, but I was devastated basically because I researched this lady. I had gone through and I was like, “I’m getting my vaginal birth. I’m getting it. That’s what is going to happen this time.” And unfortunately, I felt like all of my options were stripped from me and that the only option I had at that point was another C-section. I was so devastated. At 38.5, she basically said, “We’re going to schedule you for a C-section on Monday.” We got home and that appointment was early afternoon. When I got home, we started talking with my husband and I was like, “You know what? Why delay the inevitable? If you’re saying I can’t do anything. Nothing is going to change between 39 and 39 and a day because I think she scheduled me for Monday. I called back and I was like, “If you guys aren’t just going to let me have a vaginal birth, why don’t you just take him at 39 weeks?”I called them back and they scheduled me for first thing Sunday morning because I was like, “I’m not going to wait for two more days or for one more day for a C-section when you already said you wanted to take him.” I was just like, “You know what? Take him Sunday morning.” He was born. He was 9 pounds, 3 ounces at 39 weeks exactly. He would have easily been close to what my fourth was if he kept baking until he was ready, but perfect baby. Perfect delivery. I had a rough recovery. Rough. My incision didn’t close for about 4 weeks and after it did close, I had multiple rounds of antibiotics because it just oozed and oozed. Once it did close, I had several seromas that developed and we were concerned that they were abscesses, so I had several ultrasounds to rule that out. I was afraid that I was going to have to be cut back open. It was rough and with having two babies, my daughter had just turned two and my daughter is delayed. Delayed I say. Developmentally she wasn’t, but in speech she was. I didn’t really have any communication with her. They were both still in diapers. It was like having two babies. I was also breastfeeding both of them because my daughter was still nursing full-time, so I was tandem feeding all day long. Horrible pain, it was a rough recovery. I knew after that one that I did not want another C-section ever. Unfortunately, I did end up having a third. With that recovery, it took about 7 total weeks until I was back to normal and not in any pain. My incision was healed, but it was the polar opposite of my first, and I was not expecting it, so I didn’t have anything in place other than the fact that I had a recliner that I lived in basically for a month. Fast forward again a little over, so they are two and a half years apart, it was April. I had waited almost 2 years to get pregnant with my third. At that point, I knew that I did not want another C-section. I was going a different route. I was like, “I’m just going to have a home birth because obviously, the hospital is not going to let me do what I want to do.” I contacted a midwife who was actually the midwife I used this time with my fourth, but I was going the free birth, unassisted route with my third because I just felt like I could do it on my own. I was like, “You know what?” I hated everything about my second’s prenatal care. I felt like it was all unnecessary, and so I was just like, “You know what? I’ll just go unassisted. I’ll have the baby unassisted and I can do this. It’s totally fine.” I went 42 weeks and a day completely unassisted. I did have one ultrasound at 26 weeks when we found out that he was a boy. Everything was normal. I really did that for two things: to know the placental placement and make sure that there wasn’t any kind of Previa. Meagan: Yeah, especially with what you were planning. Rachel: I didn’t want anything to be interfering with that. Everything was perfect. He was fine. Measuring fine. Everything developmentally was great. There weren’t any red flags on his health or mine, so I felt comfortable with that. It was the only ultrasound and the only prenatal care I had up until the day before he was born. Everything was great. I had friends over. I had several weeks of random days of prodromal labor that would last 14-17 hours. Knowing what I know now after my fourth if I would have known because I didn’t know what a contraction felt like. I never had contractions with my first two, so going into my third, prodromal labor felt like labor to me because I hadn’t felt what a real contraction was. So every time I started having consistent contractions, I would call my doula over, call my friends over, call the birth photographer over, expecting it to go anywhere, but unfortunately, it went nowhere. It really wasn’t painful, so that’s another red flag for me knowing what I know now. If I would have had somebody there, I mean, yes. My doula was there, but she couldn’t feel what I was feeling and it was just one of those things. I just kept getting my hopes and kept getting my hopes up and kept getting my hopes up for several days and it led nowhere. My best friend at the time and the photographer both go out of town for the weekend of 42 weeks. I turned 42 weeks on Friday. They both leave town, and so I’m just feeling abandoned basically. Meagan: Yeah. I was going to say, feeling alone. Rachel: Yeah, alone and not necessarily scared, but the unknown was there and I was just like, “Can I do this fully alone?” And knowing that my husband– he’s a great guy and all, but he’s not very supportive when I’m in pain or anything like that, so I knew I couldn’t count on him during the birth. Any kind of trauma, my son cut his finger this past week and he was freaking out. He’s not one of those people that can keep calm, so I knew he was going to cause more of a problem for me if it was just me and him. I knew I needed somebody else. I did have my doula. She’s a great girl and I went to school with her in elementary school, but we didn’t reconnect until my pregnancy. So there’s a big gap in our lives that we didn’t really have time to catch up on. She was a friend of mine, but it wasn’t that close relationship that I would have needed to feel confident in my own abilities. I knew I needed somebody to support me. I don’t know why, but I expected to get support from nurses and staff at a hospital. Little did I know, that wasn’t going to happen. At 40 weeks on my due date, I also had family and stuff barking down my neck because I’d had two C-sections. Meagan: You hadn’t had a baby yet. Rachel: Yeah, and that. It was 42 weeks. I had two C-sections previously. Everybody was like, “What are you doing?” And so at 42 weeks exactly, I went to the hospital by myself which I should have never done. I went by myself. I walked in and was like, “I just need to have an ultrasound to check baby’s position.” Blah, blah, blah. They sent me up to triage in labor and delivery. Everybody is looking at me like I have five heads because they are asking me who my OB is and I tell them that I don’t have one and I don’t have any prenatal care at 42 weeks with two previous C-sections. They think I’m a nut job and I can hear them whispering behind the sheets and stuff because it was just a triage room. I didn’t even get a room. They did an NST. Everything was fine. They did an ultrasound. Everything was fine aside from their wanting to scare me with calcification on the placenta which is normal. Everything was fine. He was still head down. He was in a great position. Then, I was just like, “Okay cool. I’ll just go home.” I should have just gone home and gone to bed, but I didn’t. They basically cornered me in the room with two nurses and the OB there and were like, “We don’t want you to leave without having a C-section. You should have a C-section today.” I was there by myself. I was like, “You know what? Let me call my husband because I don’t feel comfortable right now. I can’t make a decision basically.” I ended up signing an AMA. I told them that I was going to go to another hospital where I delivered my second. I signed that and so I was like, “You know what? I’m just going to go there. They’re going to allow me to have a VBAC. Everything will be fine.” No. I get to the hospital. Checked in. I’m in a labor and delivery room. They check me. I’m a 3.5 which is the most I’ve ever been dilated and I was so happy. Meagan: Yeah, that’s a great starting point.Rachel: Right. Right, I thought so. The nurse was even like, “That’s good.” Her eyes perked up a little and she went to go get the OB. He still said, “We’re not going to induce you. We’re not going to give you anything.” I didn’t want Pitocin because of the additional risk of uterine rupture. I was 42 weeks. I had two C-sections. That wasn’t something that I wanted, but I was like, “Give me a Foley bulb or give me something. Or just give me time.” I felt that because I hadn’t had prenatal care, I didn’t want to sign an AMA a second time, just because I didn’t want any DHS or anybody else trying to get involved just because of my choice of how I wanted to do things. In my head, I was in this battle of, “I don’t want a C-section. That’s the last thing I want, but I also don’t feel comfortable going home.” I felt the need to stay, but at the same time, I was getting brick-walled by these providers that were saying, “No. There’s no option.” Even with my doula there asking them hundreds of questions of, “Can I do this? What about this?”I was having contractions, but they weren’t consistent at the time. I wasn’t in active labor, and so they couldn’t really do anything besides give me time which they weren’t going to do because I was 42 weeks and I’d had two C-sections. I needed to be delivered now in their heads. Meagan: Yeah, even though nothing was saying that. Rachel: Nothing was wrong. Baby and I were fine. There were no issues, but this provider was just stone-walled. He was not changing his mind even after finding out what I was dilated to. Didn’t change anything. I just was again, devastated. Like, “What do you mean I have no option? You’re totally ripping it away basically.” In my head, I still felt like I was able to. There was nothing dire that was happening that would prevent me, but I was still being told, “No. It’s not an option.” I, unfortunately, went along with it and signed the documents to have another C-section. It happened the morning after because they needed more OBs on staff. I ended up having a total of four surgeons during my C-section, my third C-section which probably was a great idea because I had a lot of scar tissue with all of the seromas and the rough recovery from my second. There was a lot of scar tissue that was in the way and whatnot that they had to cut away. It took about 40 minutes to get to my son during that delivery. He did have to be intubated in the OR, but by the time they get down the hall going to the NICU, he had already pulled out the tube. It didn’t last long and he was fine. He had to be, based on their protocol, on oxygen for a certain amount of time, and then they were able to pull him off and whatnot. I didn’t get to hold him until a little after he was 24 hours old. That was rough. After he got out and they cut away all of the scar tissue, they put me back together and everything was fine. I healed amazingly and I had a great recovery with that one. He was 9 pounds, 9 ounces at 42 weeks and a day. He was technically smaller than my second son who was 9 pounds, 3 ounces at 39 weeks. We were expecting him to be bigger honestly but he wasn’t. He was a great chunky baby and healthy. Everything was great with him after the initial shock of it all. His issues with breathing initially very well could have been from those four surgeons putting all of that weight on me during delivery and getting him out. After all of that, I decided that enough was enough. I told my midwife when I first contacted her that I will never step foot in a hospital again unless there is a true emergency because I just don’t ever want to be in that position where I feel like somebody is revoking an option that is still a valid option. Meagan: Yeah. Rachel: That feeling of your brain telling you, “You can do it. What are you talking about? You can do it,” but then everybody else in the room is saying, “No. You can’t.” It’s like I was forced in a way and unfortunately, that’s just the way that it was. After that, I just knew that if I were to have a fourth, it would be a redeeming, healing birth and I wasn’t allowing anyone or anything to get involved. It was November of last year, I found out I was pregnant. I was actually going through a weight-loss program because I was planning on having weight-loss surgery and I found out I was pregnant, so we put all of that on hold. I contacted my midwife immediately and she said basically that there was nothing that was going to get in the way. She was totally on board. She tells me now that even though I didn’t hire her for my third, as a midwife, she felt like she failed me in that birth because she wasn’t involved in the end. If she would have known that I was in that position, she would have stepped in. I wish I would have reached out to her, but I didn’t unfortunately. But with my fourth, I had her involved the entire pregnancy. I had prenatals with her. I was actually going to an OB just so that insurance could cover the initial ultrasounds because I did want with it being my third, again, I wanted to make sure that everything was fine. Everything was fine. At 22 or 23 weeks, I just ghosted that OB because as soon as they started saying, “We’re going to do this at the next appointment for the baby,” I’m just like, “Nope. You’re not telling me to do nothing.” I did their blood tests, but I never did anything else. I never did the glucose. I never did any of the other testing or vaccines or anything that they were pushing on me. I just wasn’t going to have that. So I ghosted them and we continued our prenatal visits with the midwife. Everything was great. I actually wasn’t going to find out what we were having. I did get the blood test results at 12 weeks and I told my closest friends, but my husband and I didn’t know. I was in this position where I was going to tell all of them because I had a girl and then two boys. So I was like, “If it’s a boy,” and in my head, I was convinced that it was a boy.I was like, “I’m just going to have another boy. I have everything for the boys. It’s fine.” I kept everything, but then in my head, I’m like, “If it’s a girl, I’m screwed. I’ve got to start over from scratch.” I was like, “Well, if I find out now,” in my head, it was already a boy, so I was just in this battle. I was like, “Do I wait or do I not? It would be the greatest surprise of life if I wait until birth.” But at the same time, I knew that if it was going to be a girl, which, in my head, it wasn’t going to be, I was going to have to start over. I was going to panic. I want to be prepared for a girl if it is a girl because I want to buy all of the things. So I tell my friends. They all find out. Nobody spills the beans to me, and then I started getting these little inklings in the weeks. I waited four months before I found out after we had the results. I could have known by the click of a button, but I didn’t. I refrained, but I started getting these inklings of, “It might just be a girl.” I found a massive amount of clearance girls' stuff for a dollar each at Walmart. Little things. I’m like, “Mmm, it might just be a girl,” and I bought all of it. I was like, “It’s probably a boy, but I’ll buy it all just in case.”Meagan: Just in case, yeah. Rachel: All of my friends are trying not to give it away because I told them all. You know, if it’s a boy, it’s fine. I’ll still use them. Most of it was towels and things like that. I didn’t know anybody who was having a girl. I just thought I would donate it if it was a girl. My friend took me out to lunch. I decided, “Do a reveal to me somehow because that way it is still a surprise and I won’t be disappointed if it is one way or another.” I was going to love the baby the same. I’ve had two boys and a girl, so I had the experience of both. So I was like, “Whatever it is, it is. Nothing is going to change whether I find out today or in two or three months when he or she is born.” In my head, it was still a boy. We went out to lunch and my friend called the bartender over to make a virgin drink in the color that it was going to be. Meagan: Aww, that’s cute. Rachel: We went to lunch and she took a picture of me when I found out. I bawled. I looked at her because I thought she ordered it for herself. She orders drinks for herself. She just starts looking at me and staring at me as soon as the bartender set the drink down. She was like, “Do you know what this means?” I was like, “What? What kind of drink did you get?” She was like, “Do you know what this means?” I was like, “Wait. Is it a girl?” And I just started bawling. I was like, “No it’s not. It’s not a girl. There’s no way.” We wanted a girl so bad. Having two of each would perfectly end everything. I was convinced that it wasn’t. I was like, “This has to be wrong,” and immediately, before we even left that little diner, I called and had a same-day ultrasound scheduled with a private ultrasound place to confirm that it was a girl. We went straight over there and sure enough, it was a girl. I was like, “I still don’t believe it. I really don’t.” In my head, it was so clear as day that it was going to be a boy. I think, in my head, I was doing that to make myself feel better because I knew I wanted a girl so badly. That was exciting. We got a girl. Our fourth is a girl. I had a great pregnancy. I did start prodromal labor again, unfortunately, probably around 37 weeks. I knew I had started to drop because she started to “disappear” every time I took a picture. I had no belly anymore. People were like, “Did you have the baby already?” I’m like, “No, still pregnant. She’s just hiding.” Even my midwife was hopeful that it was an indication that I was going to go early. Unfortunately, that didn’t happen. I actually tested positive for COVID the week of my due date. Meagan: Of course. Rachel: And the AC in our house went out. This is the middle of July. We were out of our house. We were in a hotel for three nights and then four more nights at my in-laws’ house. This was the week of my delivery or the week of my due date. So I was like, “Uh-uh.” I was very upset by the fact that I could possibly have a random hotel or my in-laws' address on the birth certificate and that was wigging me out. I was like, “No. I built this house that we live in. I want the address on the birth certificate to be our home. I want to deliver at home.” The thought of having my first delivery at some random location, I think, put me off. I didn’t really have any prodromal labor, thank God, during the week that we were away from home and nothing really happened. We get back home the week of 41 weeks. That Tuesday after we got back, I mowed my lawn with my zero-return mower and the bumpiness of it started more prodromal labor. Really, it’s like it never went away, though. My prodromal labor was really like early labor but took forever. It started that night. The next day, I was 40 weeks and 4 days on a Wednesday. I had a little baby shower with my office at my real estate office because I’m a real estate agent here locally. We had a little baby shower that week and I lost my mucus plug before I left the office, part of it. Every day after that, I would lose more of it, and then that Sunday after, I was 41 and 2 days. I lost some bloody show. Meagan: You started having bloody show, yeah. Rachel: Yeah, but every day I was having these contractions usually at night. They were painful. It wasn’t until I started losing my bloody show that they started to wrap around my back. That last week was pretty miserable. I wasn’t sleeping. I couldn’t lie down. The last few days, I couldn’t lie down on my side anymore because every time I would lay on my side, it was very frequent which was great that it was progressing, but I just needed relief. I was changing positions. My favorite position, which was kind of silly, was the only position I could find. I have a picture of me sitting on my ball leaning up to the end of my bed with a pillow behind my head. I was sitting, it was almost like I was in a recliner which, I wish we had a recliner here but we don’t. I was sitting on the birth ball with my feet on the ground and leaning back onto my bed. I was able to get 20-30 minute breaks between contractions. That’s the only time I slept for the last four days in that position because it just never ended.Any time I was up and awake and doing stuff throughout the day, I was still getting the kids ready. I have three other kids here and was still doing daily activities, but the last couple of days, I was so exhausted and miserable that I just was reclused in my room. I didn’t open my door. I didn’t want to do anything besides have a baby. I was miserable, tired, uncomfortable, and in pain. I was in and out of the bath. I took several baths a day, but when the contractions would get going, I wasn’t comfortable there anymore. It wasn’t until, I’d have to look back at my text messages with my midwife, but two days before I actually had her, I really thought I was going to go into labor because I just had this shift in feeling where I was having a lot of back labor, a lot. It was only happening in my back in a way. I could handle my front cramping, but my back was uncontrollable. I just wanted to cry. No position was comfortable. The same thing, I couldn’t sleep. I get through it. I get breaks here and there. The night before I had her, I literally didn’t sleep at all. I didn’t have any breaks between contractions. I stayed awake. I was pretty miserable. I was laid up in the morning and all afternoon. I didn’t leave my bed. I put on those little diaper things. I didn’t even care. I was going to pee on myself. I didn’t care. I didn’t want to move. I just sat on my bed and leaned up against some pillows and this rubber dinosaur thing that my kids had. It was kind of in the shape of a peanut ball. It’s about the same size. I would lean up against that on the wall of my bed. I basically sat there for hours. I basically laid there watching TV and just contracting the entire time. I was moaning through some of them, but it wasn’t until I got up to go to the bathroom that I felt something. I was like, “Mmm, that’s weird.” I got up. It was probably about 1:00. I go to the bathroom and I wipe and I feel my bag bulging. I feel it. Meagan: Ooh. Oh. Rachel: Yeah, feel it bulging. It wasn’t all the way out, but I could feel it there. I was like, “Oop.” I texted the midwife and I was like, “You probably should come over because the bag is bulging.” That was my first sure sign that it was happening soon. That was the first time that I was like, “Okay. The end is near. I can start to feel excited again,” because I was just in this dread of in-between contractions of just no relief and annoyed that it was taking so long. It was 42 weeks and a day, finally felt some progress. My bag starts bulging at 1:00 and I’m excited, telling everybody, updating everyone, and then probably about an hour and a half later, the midwife gets there. She’s trying to get me into a good mental state, getting all of the kids out of the house. My dad ended up taking the kids and my other three. My roommate here took her two boys and they went fishing and did some other stuff, and got out of the house, so that really helped with the chaos. I was able to relax a little bit more. It got quiet. I turned on some music. I was in and out of the bath. I just couldn’t get comfortable. I really wanted a water birth, but I was really just trying to focus on following my body, listening to what I needed, and getting comfortable where I was. Meagan: However you could. Rachel: Yeah, really. The only place, again, that I could get comfortable was on my birth ball. I spent pretty much the entire time there. My midwife did leave and sat in the driveway for a little bit because she feels like in a way, that birth is to be undisturbed as far as her presence. She sometimes feels like she doesn’t need to be there. So she did sit in the driveway for a little while just to give me time alone. I didn’t mind that, but I was texting her and she was like, “Anytime you want me to come back, just let me know.” I was like, “I enjoy the company.” My husband was in the other room playing a game. Like I said, anytime I’m in pain and whatnot, he’s just not good. In fact, he still hasn’t watched the birth videos. He won’t. I’m going to get him to one of these days just to have him see it all. He was there when it happened, but he didn’t want to see anything. So around 3:45, I get in the bath while the midwife was in the driveway and I noticed and felt that my water bag was out further. It was sticking out. I could feel it from the outside. I was curious about it. I kept telling my midwife, “It’s still bulging and I can feel it.” At that time, she was kind of skeptical. She was like, “Are you sure it’s the bag? Or whatever.” I was like, “No, I’m pretty sure. It feels like a water balloon to me.” It was squeaky-rubbery. In my head, that’s how I felt like it was. I get my phone to take a picture and I took a video because I couldn’t reach the button, so I have a video of my bags bulging. As soon as I get the phone down there, it pops and bursts, so I have a video of my bags bursting. Meagan: That’s amazing. Rachel: Yeah, so I have a quick video of that. I was shocked, but yeah. I posted that before the baby was even born on our unassisted group on Facebook and everybody was like, “Oh my god, I’ve never seen that before.” A lot of people haven’t ever even seen a bag. Most bags break when they are still inside or it will be when the head is right there. There was nothing there, but it was pretty cool. My midwife said that she was googling, “How dilated do you have to be to have your bags so far out?” We had no idea. We didn’t do any cervical checks or anything like that. It was all just a guessing game, but that was probably about 3:45-4:00 when my bags officially burst. And then after that, it was just kind of like, “Okay. Now it’s really going to happen today.” Again, I wasn’t really crying or in a lot of pain. I mean, it was uncomfortable, but I had a very– to me, in my head, vaginal delivery, I guess because of the media and all of the videos and stuff I’ve seen, I thought I was going to be more vocal and in a lot more pain. I thought it was going to be more exaggerated than it was. To me, it felt like it was just going to keep going. I was expecting it to increase or intensify, but I think also that the days and days and days of prodromal labor numbed me to it all maybe. I don’t know. In my head, I was like, “I’ve got a long way to go. This is not that bad,” but my midwife started to notice certain cues as I was laboring like different sounds I was making and things like that that she knew that we were getting close. But again, to me, it was all the same. It was no different. I couldn’t distinguish one contraction that was more intense than the other or anything like that. I just sat on my birth ball and leaned onto the wooden vanity that I had in my bathroom. The crease in the wood on the shelf was hitting me in the palm, kind of like how people use the comb technique. That’s kind of how I used it in a way to counter any kind of pain I was feeling. My midwife was sitting in front of me. She actually had a folding chair we got her and she was sitting in the shower. We have a curb-less shower. She was facing me and taking notes. Her assistant was texting her and she was just giving her updates. I have all of those screenshots. It’s really cute to see, “She’s a warrior.” They were just hyping me up through text. It was so cool. I didn’t get to see any of those until after the birth and she sent me everything. She was taking pictures of me during contractions and little videos and stuff because she knew I was going to want that, but also, it was helping her little intern learn through my experience too. We get through– it was probably 8:00ish by the time I just couldn’t get comfortable. I felt like I needed to get off of the ball. I was going to get in the bath. That lasted all of three seconds and I drained the water. I was like, “Not going to happen.” I couldn’t sit. I couldn’t lean. I couldn’t do anything in the water. I was not comfortable so I immediately got out. I tried to sit on the toilet and the contractions were way too intense. I couldn’t do it. I wanted to crawl up the wall. I had my husband lean in front of me and I couldn’t even get up off the toilet because every time– that’s when I knew that things were progressing really fast. I needed to get comfortable as soon as I could. I tried to sit back on my ball and I was comfortable, but I felt like the pressure– I needed to get off my butt. I moved onto my bed and as soon as I got on my knees and pillows in front of me, I just started feeling the urge to push. It all started probably at about 9:00-9:15.I only pushed for about 15 minutes. In the last five minutes or so, her head was out, but we were trying to get her shoulders out. My midwife reached in just to check to see if there was a cord around the neck or anything like that. There wasn’t a cord, but as soon as she stuck a couple of fingers in to check for the cord, her shoulder popped out and she just shot out. It was at 9:31 when she was born. Immediately following her, my midwife says, was three gallons of water. It came in waves. Unfortunately, I didn’t have a mattress protector on my mattress, so that was a regret, but it’s fine. They used literally every towel in the house and every chux pad that we had left and it was still seeping through my bed. They tried. As soon as they got her out, she was fine. She was crying right away, but when I went to turn over from my knees to my back, I turned over without them realizing that I was turning over and my midwife was holding the baby. When I turned over, her cord snapped, so it was kind of this quick, frantic, “Get the cord clamp!” My husband was standing in the corner and I just remember looking at him. He was panicked. He was like, “Oh my god.” He was traumatized by the last three C-sections.With my third, when he followed the baby to the NICU, he turned to me and said, “Please don’t die.” He was traumatized. I think, after my third, I knew that not only could I not have another C-section, I couldn’t put my husband through it. I felt bad the moment after my fourth was born that I was now traumatizing him again. But this time was all under control. They just got the clamp. It was fine. As soon as I got turned over, they moved the baby to me. Within five to ten minutes, the placenta came out. Everything was fine. Everything went great. I didn’t have any bleeding really. I barely tore. Probably about 30 minutes after she was born, we weighed her. We all took our guesses. I was guessing 9,7 only because my birthday is September 7th and I was like, “My boys were 9. I’ll just do it in the middle.” And no. From the moment she came out, my midwife was like, “This is an 11-pound baby.” I said, “No way. Absolutely no way, an 11-pound baby.” Everybody else in the room was guessing in the 9’s, low 10’s. We get out the scale and sure enough, she’s 11,1. My midwife was like, “I told you.” I didn’t believe it. After the midwife left, I had my husband hold her and weigh her on the scale, then put her down and weigh on the scale again and sure enough, she was 11 pounds. I was like, “What!” I was like, “Did I really just do that and didn’t even really tear?” Within a few days, I didn’t even feel the tear anymore. It was already healed. And so, yeah. Honestly, it took me several days. It still doesn’t really hit me now, but I had the birth that I’ve always wanted. I feel like I was expecting it to be worse. I know that it sounds weird, but I was expecting to have to scream, cry, or be in excruciating pain. I was expecting there to be more going on, but it was like this, not an out-of-body experience, but I felt like I was living through someone– maybe it was out-of-body. I was expecting more of it. After it was done, I was like, “That’s it?” You know? Like, “That’s all?”Meagan: That’s all? Wait. Rachel: Yeah. I just was expecting more. I don’t know why. Maybe it’s just because in my head, I’ve worked it up for so many years expecting this and I watched so many birth videos and things like that. I just wanted to so badly, but in my head, it was going to go such a different way. I mean, it was great, but I was expecting more as in it to be worse. Meagan: Yeah, right. Rachel: But, no. I had an amazing delivery. The entire time, I was supported by my loved ones and my midwife. My midwife’s assistant got there 30 minutes before she was born, right when we were getting on the bed and getting comfortable with the pillows and stuff. She came in and it was the perfect time because that apprentice assistant had also had three C-sections and a home birth with my midwife. It was almost like I got to experience what she did and she got to see it through another person. Meagan: Yeah, I love it. Rachel: Yeah, and I think my midwife put it this way. She got to give me what she experienced herself with my midwife. The same midwife delivered her baby at home. Meagan: So awesome. So awesome. Rachel: We both got to get that experience and it was healing for me, but I think it was also healing for her especially because she had those preconceived beliefs about weight that would interfere with my birth and it went fine. She had some fears lingering with that and for her to witness it and see that women like myself have just as much strength as anyone else. I’ve shared my birth videos with people and they are shocked that I am quiet and I seem calm. I really felt that way. I didn’t have any pain. I don’t remember feeling any pain. I just remember feeling it burn during pushing, but it wasn’t me pushing. The only push that I forced out was at the very end because we were concerned about her shoulders being stuck because we knew that she was big by the time her head came out. She didn’t have any molding or anything like that. It came out round as all could be. By that time, we realized that there was a possibility of her shoulders getting stuck, but no. They just came right out. She was fine. It was just a very healing experience. Redeeming in a way. I love that word. It was redemption. Meagan: Absolutely. Rachel: People keep saying, “Don’t you just want to rub it in all of your providers’ faces?” And honestly, I do. I wish more women like myself could experience this because I feel like the option is taken away even though it shouldn’t be. I have friends that have felt the very same thing as myself, that bait and switch. Even personally, locally, they feel like they never got the option. It just makes me, I don’t want to say angry, but it is angering for sure. I just wish that more women would try to push to experience this or find a provider like my own that refused to believe that I couldn’t do it until something was shown that was truly indicative that something was interfering. But because this option is taken away from so many women, it’s even harder for those of us that push for it to get it. Even fewer midwives are willing to take on plus-size women. I was over 415 pounds on the day of delivery. When people think of that, I mean, I carry it well. I’m 5’8”. I’m very proportioned. I have no mobility issues. I have no pain or any issues with my joints or anything like that. I’m very healthy and strong, but my weight is my weight and my BMI is what it is. That’s what providers see. They don’t see my body. They don’t see my abilities, my physical strength. They don’t see any of that. Unfortunately, for many women, it’s the same. Even with mobility issues or things like that, it doesn’t interfere with your cervix. It doesn’t interfere with your uterus or the biology of birth itself. I wish that wouldn’t hold people back. Yes, there are risks associated with your weight and being bigger, but there should be more than just the number that predetermines how you should birth. Meagan: Yes. Rachel: And unfortunately, with a lot of providers, even midwives, it is about the number on the paper. I’m grateful that my midwife refused to just see the number because she knew what I weighed. I told her. I was honest. She knows me and my ability. I have three kids. I am active with them. I can squat for days. I will squat competition you and beat you. I just have strength in my body. Regardless of my weight, I have the ability to do more than a number on a scale. Meagan: Yeah. I love that. I love that you said that because there is a slightly increased risk for BMI over 30, but that doesn’t mean you can’t do it. Even with those risks being increased, it should be noted that ACOG, RCOG, and SCOG still don’t say that it means that you have to have an automatic Cesarean. It doesn’t mean that you can’t do it. We actually have a blog all about it. We talk about it. We have a plus-sized blog and we will make sure that it is in the show notes. It is possible. Stand up for yourself. You were saying, “I’ll take you on.” Don’t judge a book by its cover. Just because someone is plus-sized doesn’t mean they don’t have the ability to do what some people think is unachievable. Rachel: Right. I mean, yeah. Not that I think their ability shouldn’t be tested–Meagan: Right, exactly. True, yes. Rachel: My body was tested over and over and over with my third being with my size, but I feel like there should be an obvious distinction between somebody that physically can’t, that may have some biological issues that may interfere with– maybe their pelvis was broken at one point and things like that that are seriously considered. But just because of my weight, just because of this, which is all an assumption and unfortunately, those assumptions somehow become fact, and that just because of a number or my size or whatever automatically means that my cervix doesn’t work or that my uterus is incompetent or something. In my brain, it doesn’t make sense. Yeah. That’s what I refuse to allow medical providers or people in general, even family that had doubts about my abilities which is all out of fear. Meagan: Yeah, and uneducated.Rachel: Yeah or just been misguided, or told certain things about it. Everybody that I have talked to is like, “Oh, I thought you always had to have a C-section after you had one.” That whole “once a C-section always a C-section”, is like no. My midwife herself has delivered a home birth after 7 C-sections. It happens. Her body didn’t forget how to birth. It just was not given the chance. Meagan: Doubted, yeah. Rachel: My midwife does more VBACs or home births, she’ll even go to the hospital if you want to go the hospital, but she does more HBACs than regular first-time moms or repeat vaginal births. She takes on people that nobody else will take on because she wants to be that outlet and she has this heritage midwife training that she’s doing to extend her knowledge and her outreach to more midwives so that they will start taking on. She educates on the true risks of VBACs and things like that and that they aren’t to be feared. A lot of people have a lot of fear somehow that every time a woman births after a C-section that her uterus is just going to explode or something. That’s just not how it works. Meagan: Right. Rachel: She has a lot of insight and experience with VBACs. She is a wealth of knowledge and I appreciate her so much for advocating for those like myself and giving us a chance when nobody else will. Big huge props to my midwife for that.Meagan: Absolutely. Rachel: It’s just been an amazing experience. Sitting here with my baby who is three weeks old now which, to me, it’s gone by way too fast. I can see maybe a week, but three is– no. She’s still little. She had slow gaining after I had her because my milk came in about four days after she was born. I mean, she was a big girl. She was pretty chunky. She had a lot to lose. She did lose a little over a pound, but she’s back up there now and eating like crazy. She’s healthy and great. Nothing wrong with her or myself. I feel amazing. I’ve been out and about since day three after I had her. I was taking my kids to school. I had the meet-the-teacher night four days after she was born, so we all went together. Even the day before that, I went out to lunch with just the baby and me. I wasn’t in any pain and it was a whole different experience having a vaginal birth than a C-section because I wasn’t cut open. I didn’t have an open sore. Meagan: Right. Recovery was better. Rachel: Yeah. I didn’t feel like– I mean, yes. I had pain but it was only when I nursed. It was just the initial pains the first few days and then obviously when I went pee, it burned. But I got some numbing spray that helped with that. I tell people every time I’m out. “How are you out? I was still on the couch.” I’m like, “Don’t let it fool you. I’m still wearing a diaper.” But physically, I feel amazing.Meagan: Good. Rachel: It’s the polar opposite and I wish I could have had this experience for every one of them, but in a way, it makes this one that much more special because I didn’t get that with the first three. I’ve learned so much more about myself and I’ve gained a lot more strength and confidence in myself after my second, and then with the third unassisted pregnancy and then a third repeat C-section, I think that really just put me over the edge where I just had this empowerment in a way that I knew I was going to get the birth that I wanted and nothing was going to get in the way. I just had this peace about it. It was really hard the last few days especially, just because I had such a long prodromal journey in the end. It lasted over two weeks and I was just miserable. But that last day, I really started just to get that peace back. Meagan: Good. Yeah, I love that. Rachel: It was going to happen. It was going to happen. It was going to happen the way it was meant to happen and it just went. I got happy again once my bag started bulging. I was like, “All right. We’re going.”Meagan: We’ve got this. Rachel: I was happy because before, it was a dreadful journey the last few weeks. Every time I thought it was going to happen, it didn’t. I got amped up and got let down over and over. But I knew that my body needed that time. It really helped, I think, with the pain. Even though it lasted forever and I was uncomfortable and whatnot, I think in the very end, I think that really helped with the management of the pain just because I was expecting it to get worse and it never did. I had that peace and calm through the whole end of my active labor. Even through transition, which looking back now, I can see when that happened, but yeah. I really think the long prodromal journey played a huge part. Maybe my body just needed extra time to mold and transition and expand and whatnot because it had never done it before. Meagan: Yep. We’ve just got to allow our bodies time and peace. Well, you’re amazing. Rachel: Even if I had gone into labor with my first or my second, it’s very possible that I could have wound right back up as a C-section because my body just naturally needs more time. Looking back, I feel like I don’t think anything would have changed. Meagan: Yeah. Rachel: I think that if I would have gone through labor before and it ended up in a C-section, I feel like maybe that would make me doubt myself more looking back. Just reflecting on it, I just feel like maybe if I had done it and then ended up in a C-section, maybe I would have doubted myself more and this is just the way that my journey has had to come to have that confidence in myself. I’m very much that person where it’s like, if you tell me I can’t do something, I’ll do it and stare you down in the face and laugh at you afterward kind of thing. Like, “Oh. Do you think I can’t? Watch me.”Meagan: Right.Rachel: I feel like maybe that was just the way my journey was supposed to be and this way, I have a little bit more of an impact on my experience for people. I’ve had three Cesarean births and I had a home birth of an 11-pound baby on my bed in my house. Meagan: Yes. Oh, so amazing. So amazing. Rachel: Yeah. I just think it couldn’t have happened any better and I’m more than happy with how it ended up. I would do it over and over again, but my husband is pretty adamant that he is getting a vasectomy and he is done. Meagan: Oh well, hey. That happened to me too. Rachel: It hasn’t been scheduled and it hasn’t happened so you know, you never know. There might be a fifth. Meagan: Well, if another one comes, you just let us know. I really appreciate you so much for coming. I seriously loved it and it’s going to be amazing. Rachel: Aww, well thank you guys for having me and letting me share my story because I definitely want it to help others like myself.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

When Ana found The VBAC Link podcast, it was Meagan’s VBA2C that inspired Ana to go for her own! Though VBA2C is thought to be possible only without medical interventions, Ana had a nice, gentle induction, an epidural, and only pushed for 20 minutes! Meagan and Ana discuss different VBA2C induction methods including some non-traditional ways that could be just what you will need. Make sure to listen closely because providers are not likely to offer them unless you ask!Additional linksThe VBAC Link Blog: VBAC Induction MethodsThe VBAC Link Blog: VBA2CThe VBAC Link Facebook CommunityHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Whatever time it is where you are listening, welcome to The VBAC Link. This is Meagan Heaton and as always, I’m excited to be with you today and share another story. A couple of months ago when my kids went back to school in August, I asked out on The VBAC Link Facebook and Instagram page what people wanted more of. What that was was vaginal birth after two Cesarean specifically stories. I am going to deliver that to you today. Actually, Ana is going to deliver that to you today. We have a guest sharing her VBA2C story with an induction which is also something that a lot of people don’t know. A VBAC after two C-sections can also be induced. We are excited about her story and so grateful for her for being with us today. She even wants to be a doula here in the future, so I’m so excited to talk with her more about her journey, her story, and her desire to be a doula. Review of the WeekMeagan: But of course, we have a review of the week so I don’t want to miss that. Today, we have EmilyRessman and this is from Apple Podcasts. She posted it back in June, so not too long ago. She says, “Prepping for my VBAC in August.” Oh, that’s actually right now when we are recording, guys. “I found this podcast and it is so inspiring. Hearing facts from experienced doulas and successful VBAC mamas has given me the confidence I didn’t know was possible. I now feel comfortable talking to my OBs as well as my family and friends about why I want to VBAC and feel informed about the risks. I also love hearing about the CBAC stories as well so I will be able to find healing however my next birth plays out. Thank you for all you do.”Well, thank you, Ms. Emily. There was another review. Hopefully, I didn’t just reread this review, but there was another review that was also talking about loving hearing the CBAC stories and I love that. I love that you guys love that. It’s something that can be triggering and hard to hear, but it is really good to listen to because sometimes birth ends in a Cesarean birth. It may not be desired, but it can still be healing and beautiful. My second C-section, although not desired to be a C-section, I really found it healing and it was nice. It was peaceful to be a part of my birth and to know those options. These CBAC stories are beautiful and I’m so grateful for all of you guys who have shared them. We welcome all stories here. VBAC, even uterine rupture, CBAC, VBAC after multiple Cesareans, you are welcome here. So if you haven’t and you want to share your story, feel free to apply. We are sharing both on podcasts and social media because we have so many wonderful submissions. We want to try to share all of your stories. So if you haven’t had a chance, head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story today. Also, if you haven’t had a chance, we would love your reviews. We are in need of more reviews. So if you wouldn’t mind pressing pause right now before we get into Ana’s beautiful story and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, or wherever you are, you can just Google The VBAC Link and leave a review there as well. Or on Facebook, or send us a message at [email protected]. We would love, love, love to read your review on the podcast. Ana’s StoryMeagan: Okay, Ana. I am so excited for you to share this story. So excited because I think the induction is something that makes me really excited because we don’t have a ton of induction VBAC after multiple Cesarean stories, and so I’m excited to hear about how your induction went and how you navigated through that, where you were, and all of the fun things. So if you wouldn’t mind, I’m going to turn the time right over to you. Ana: I have to say that I can’t stop smiling because it feels surreal. I’m such a big fan of the podcast. Meagan: Oh! That makes me so happy. Seriously, we are so grateful for you and all of the listeners and all of the stories shared because we wouldn’t have this. We would not have this without you. When Julie and I were together, we could sit and probably talk VBAC until we were blue in the face because we love VBAC. We are passionate about VBAC, but the stories. These stories are what make this podcast, so we are so grateful to you today for being here.Ana: Yeah, so I guess I’ll start with my first birth. I was 18. It was a long time ago. I was very, I would say, uneducated about birth. It was also an induction at 41 weeks. Meagan: Okay.Ana: That’s important to know because it’s the same as my VBAC story, how it started. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Ana: I went in for my induction. I was 1 centimeter, 50% effaced. Again, same as my VBAC. Meagan: That’s kind of funny, same stats. Same stats. Ana: Yeah. Yeah, so that was a battle in my mind, actually, for my VBAC because I was so nervous. But everything went well up until a certain point. They started with Cervadil which I hated. It was super intense with super painful contractions as soon as they started it. I got an epidural because of the Cervadil before even Pitocin or anything. I stalled at 5 centimeters for about 12 hours. There was no change. I don’t know. I was super upset. I remember when my doctor was like, “Okay. Well, you haven’t made any progress. It’s been 12 hours.” It was just so devastating to me. I did not want to have a C-section at all. During that first C-section, I was really young. I was 18. It was traumatizing for me. I felt so scared and I didn’t have, I had my boyfriend but he was also 18, so we had no idea what to expect or anything. The worst part of that one was that they actually had my boyfriend leave with my baby, so they left me alone in the OR to be stitched up. I’ll never forget that. It was horrible. I wanted to see my baby and they left with him. It was terrible. Meagan: Yeah, you can feel abandoned sometimes. Ana: I did. Meagan: And you don’t know anyone around you. I’m so sorry. Ana: Yeah, it was definitely something hard. So fast forward to my second birth. Originally, I planned for a TOLAC for this birth as well. That was with my current partner now. I should have said. I had a boy and then another boy. So this is my second son. Yes, anyway backtracking all over the place. I wrote notes and everything and I’m still all over the place. Meagan: That’s okay. Ana: So my second birth, I planned to TOLAC, but I did not really prepare as I should have. I think I went into it just like, “It didn’t work the first time. What are the odds it’s not going to work the second time? I’m going to be fine. I’m just going to wing it.” That did not go well. I think I had prodromal labor. Meagan: Oh yeah. Ana: Yeah. I didn’t know what it was at the time though. I just had really intense contractions. They started at 39 weeks and 4 days with him. They didn’t cause any cervical change at all because I went to the hospital two nights in a row because they were so intense. I’m like, “What is happening?” And I couldn’t get any sleep. So they did medicate sleep for me which was nice. Meagan: Oh, really? Ana: Yeah, so I could get a little bit of sleep. But when they told me that nothing had changed after that, I just felt ready to meet my baby. I was tired of being in pain and nothing was happening. I had no idea what prodromal labor was and I had no idea that it could have been the positioning of the baby or The Miles Circuit. I didn’t know what any of that was. I just was like, “I’m done. I want to meet my baby. Sign me up for a C-section.” It was actually healing. It was much more peaceful. They never separated us. I got skin-to-skin in the OR. That experience was healing for me because I did get a much more peaceful and better experience, but it was not a VBAC. Meagan: Right. It’s not that it wasn’t the birth you desired, but it was still great. Ana: Yeah. Meagan: That’s how it was for me too. I didn’t desire another C-section, but I still was able to make it healing and positive for the birth that it was. Ana: Right, exactly. Meagan: Yeah. Ana: So my VBAC after two C-sections. Honestly, when we were trying to get pregnant, I was still thinking about options, but I really was considering a repeat C-section actually because of the prodromal labor. I didn’t know what prodromal labor was still at this point. I was just very ignorant of it all, I guess. To me, I was like, “Oh, well. You know.” I didn’t even know that VBAC after two C-sections was an option. So actually, what happened was that I looked up VBAC on the podcast and this VBAC Link came up. Meagan: Aww. Ana: Meagan, I heard your story and I was like, “Oh my gosh. This is a thing. I can do that too.” Meagan: Yes. I love it. Ana: And then I think I listened to every story probably a million times my whole pregnancy. Meagan: There’s something about having those stories when you are prepping that heals you. Ana: Oh yeah. It’s huge. It is for sure. And then I feel like you learn so much too from other people’s stories. Meagan: Mhmm, absolutely. Ana: So thankfully, the hospital I deliver at is very VBAC friendly. I didn’t even have to fight for a chance to TOLAC at all. It was so supportive which is so great because battling with yourself mentally, at least for me, was a huge part of my journey, so I’m happy I didn’t have to fight with somebody else to get what I want. At my first doctor’s appointment, my midwife asked me, “Do you want a TOLAC or do you want a C-section?” I was like, “Oh wow. I want a TOLAC.” I originally told her that my plan was to, if I went into spontaneous labor, I would TOLAC but I didn’t want to be induced again because of how the first experience went which is ironic. I was like, “Before 41 weeks, I’ll try and if I get to 41 and I don’t go into labor, I’ll just have a scheduled C-section.”The whole time until the last month, that’s what I thought, but obviously, that changed. To prepare this time, I just completely absorbed everything I could find about birth and VBAC. I took The VBAC Link course actually, too, which was super helpful. I read Ina May. I think I read all of her books. I read, I think it was, How to Heal a Bad Birth. Meagan: Such a good book. Ana: Yes. Yes, it was huge. I just realized from my second birth that I had a lot of things that I needed to work on to be able to believe in myself. Also, a huge part of my story too before I get into my birth story was that my mom had all C-sections and then my older sister had four C-sections herself. So to me, there was a huge belief with my mom and my sister that, “Oh, we just can’t do it. We just can’t give vaginal birth. None of us can. That’s just how it is.” So when I told them that I wanted to have a VBAC after two C-sections, they were a little taken aback like, “What? Why do you want to do that? You’ve tried twice. Why do you want to do it again?” Especially my mom, I would say. I was actually a TOLAC, so she was trying to have a VBAC with me. Meagan: Oh really? Ana: Yeah, and this was the ‘90s so that’s when it took off. It was in the ’90s. She was induced though. She didn’t progress and she had another C-section. She really believed that “My body doesn’t work. It’s broken,” and then she thought that it was genetic. We got into some arguments actually. I love my mother, but it was hard to work through. That was another thing I had to shut out with my mom and my sister. I was kind of like, “I know. I understand and respect your concerns, but I don’t want to talk about this with you,” because it was that negative voice that was like, I know when I’m going into labor that’s what I’m going to think about. I had to really tone that down. Meagan: Yeah. Ana: Coming into my birth story, I hit 40 weeks, and then it just kept dragging once I hit my due date. I’m like, “I really thought I’d go into labor by now.” I actually decided– I think it was my 39-week appointment– that all of a sudden, I did want an induction at 41 weeks. That was actually because of The VBAC Link Facebook Community. There are a lot of stories there too that I thought were super helpful. When I was looking up VBAC after two C-section stories, I came across quite a few that were induced. I talked with a midwife and I decided that was something that I wanted to do. So 41 weeks came and I was scheduled for my induction. My partner and I got there and they completed all the intake. It took a while. We started with the Cooks catheter. That started at about 1:30 in the afternoon. They placed it. That went well. A little bit after, I started contracting. It was manageable and then it got really uncomfortable, so that’s when I was looking for relief. I got into the shower which was amazing. Hot water is amazing for contractions. That went on for a few hours. I tried the TENS machine. I did not like that. I tried the nitrous. That made me nauseous. I was like, “Nope.” Those were the three things I wanted to try were water, nitrous, and the TENS machine. I was like, “Okay, now I want an epidural.” I was like, “I can’t do it anymore.” I was just so tired because obviously I have two kids at home and then I was there all day. This was probably at 8:00 or 9:00 p.m. at this point.I was just really ready to get rest. I knew I had a long way ahead of me. At around 9:30-10:00, I got the epidural placed and I felt amazing at that point. I immediately got some sleep and then the Cooks Catheter didn’t come out on its own actually. But when they took it out, I was a 3 or a 4. Meagan: That’s great. Ana: Yeah, so that helped a lot. They started Pitocin at around 3:30 a.m. and then my water broke on its own with one contraction which I was really proud of because it never happened before. Then I started feeling, I think after my water broke, that was at about 6:00 a.m. I think. I started to feel more pressure and the contractions were coming back. I got more medicine for my epidural. The nurses were amazing. I have to say that was the best thing about the hospital I delivered at. It was just amazing and all of the nurses were great. My nurse was coming in switching sides. I had the peanut ball which I think helped so much in making the difference between my first experience with induction and this experience. Around 3:30 in the afternoon, that’s when I was experiencing a lot of pressure that I’d never experienced before. It wasn’t pain. It was just pressure. Meagan: Was it vaginally or rectally? Ana: Everywhere. Meagan: Everywhere. Ana: Yeah, it was really intense pressure. My midwife came in. She checked me and said, “You are 8 centimeters.” I was like, “What?!” I stalled at 5 centimeters with my first so right there, I felt that feeling of, “Okay, my body is not broken. It made it past 5.” That was the big moment where I was like, “Oh my god. It’s happening.” At that point, it was the waiting game. Waiting to be complete because she was at 0 station, so she was coming lower. That’s what all the pressure was. She was starting to come down. I remember that this was such an out-of-body experience from this point on. My epidural just stopped working that well. I started to feel everything again. I was at 8 centimeters hitting transition. I didn’t know what to do to cope. I remember my partner and the nurse were just like, “Just breathe. Just breathe.” I got the sweats. I was like, “I can’t breathe.”Meagan: It’s hard. Yeah. Ana: I was trying to stay calm, but I was like, “Oh my goodness.” That was another moment in my head when I was like, “Why did I sign up for this? Why am I doing this to myself?” Even though it was what I wanted, it was such a mental battle every step of the way. My partner was such a huge help in bringing me back to reality. He was like, “You can do this. You can do this. I believe in you.” He was great. At about, I remember I was complaining about more pressure, so actually, at this point, it was probably at 5:00 p.m. Every time I had a contraction, I was actually bearing down. Unless you’ve had the feeling of the fetal ejection reflex, it’s hard to explain. It was an uncontrollable bearing down just like when you poop which, the nurse was telling me–Meagan: I always tell my clients that it’s the cutest poop you’re ever going to take. Just embrace it. Embrace the feeling.Ana: Yeah. I was right. I was like, “Oh shoot.” I had that feeling. I was complete when the midwife came in. They got everything ready for me to push. Baby was having a couple of late decels that they had been monitoring. They were monitoring the whole time. It was starting to get, I think, to the point where they didn’t really like it as much. I felt the pressure in the room change. They were telling me to push, teaching me how to push, but after a couple of times, the OB that was there explained to me what was happening. She said, “If you can’t get her out in the next couple of contractions, you have an option. We can do a vacuum delivery or a C-section.” She said, “A vacuum delivery is going to be much faster to get her out.” But her heart rate was not what they wanted. So that part was intense. It got a little scary there for a minute, but I only pushed for 20 minutes. When she told me that, I just gave it all I had. I pushed her out and it was the most intense thing I ever felt, but also as soon as she was out, it was all worth it. They put her on me for the first time and I never experienced that before. It was amazing to be the first person to hold your baby. She came out perfectly healthy, so that was good. I will never forget it. After they put her on my chest and I looked over at my boyfriend, I literally was just like, “Why did I even want to do this more than once?” My nurses started to laugh. They were like, “Because you forget it all.” I felt like I just could not, I couldn’t believe it. I just couldn’t believe I did it. I just kept saying over and over again that I did it. I did it. I did end up having a second-degree tear which was not fun, but I’m actually kind of grateful. I felt like it could have been worse with how hard I did have to push to get her out because of the heart rate decels that were happening. I mean, my first vaginal delivery and only pushing for 20 minutes is really good. It was pretty fast. Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say for stalling, not progressing and all of these things, it was pretty quick. It makes me think that with your first, “Oh, it’s been 12 hours.” But the same thing with me. My first was also 12 hours where he was like, “Yeah, it’s been 12 hours.” We’re first-time moms. My body had never done this before. It just seems like the first time, we weren’t given a chance. And look, it took time. This induction took time, but amazing. You just needed someone to trust your body and its ability and your ability to do this. It is hard when it comes down to it and they are like, “Hey, we’re talking about all of these inductions. We’ve got to get this baby out fast.” That’s a lot of pressure on you. It can be scary, but you went it and you did it. You totally did it. Oh, I love it. For the Cook’s catheter, in some places, they call it a Foley. In some places, they call it a Cook. That is such a great way to induce. A lot of people say that it’s contraindicated, but we see it happen all the time. It does have success. Ana: Yeah, definitely. My first birth, I should add, was at a different hospital. That’s why I did not go back there because I felt like the team you have around you plays a huge role in your birth outcome. The experience was night and day at the hospital I delivered at this time. Actually, I had my second and third birth at the current hospital. They both were amazing experiences. Meagan: They really sound supportive, loving, and encouraging. It really helps when they educate and tell you their options like, “Hey, we’re going to do this. These are some options, but we don’t want to do that. Let’s just get this baby out.” Ana: Right. They never did anything without talking to me which is huge. Because sometimes, I know in my first birth, I definitely felt that things were just happening to me. I didn’t have a say. It was very like, “Oh, we’re going to break your water now. We’re going to do this to you now.” This time, it was not like that at all. I was a part of my care which I think is really important.Meagan: Mhmm, absolutely. That’s one of the things. Even if the birth doesn’t end up exactly how you wanted or envisioned, I feel like being a part of your care and being an advocate in your space and having someone talk to you as though you are someone making these decisions because you should be. It really makes a difference in the overall view of birth. I’m not saying that it totally takes away from any sad feelings or anything like that, but it makes a big deal when you are a part of your birth and you are helping to call the shots in making the decisions versus having people just say, “We’re doing this. We’re doing this,” or “We did this.” Not even like, “We’re going to do this.” It’s, “We’ve done this. This is what we did.” That happens too.Ana: Right. I didn’t realize how much it did happen until I went on this journey of reading everything I could and reading stories and watching documentaries. I’m happy that a lot more women are educating themselves so now I feel like we are taking back our power with birth. Meagan: Absolutely. We are taking back our power with birth. I love that. Oh my gosh. I love that. Okay, let’s talk a little bit about– so you kind of mentioned a few of them. How were you induced with your first? Ana: They did Cervadil and then Pitocin. Meagan: Cervadil and Pitocin, okay. We know that Cytotec, Cervadil, and those types of things are usually not used with VBAC because they are contraindicated and there’s a whole history with that. That’s probably why they didn’t do that with this baby. But sometimes, the cervix isn’t soft enough, open enough for a Foley or a Cook. They can’t get it in. That’s where a lot of people feel stuck. They feel like they don’t have any other option other than scheduling a C-section. I also just want to say on a side note that scheduling a C-section is okay too. That is not a bad thing. If that’s something that someone desires, that is okay and we encourage everyone to follow their heart. If they are like, “Okay. In my mind, I’m going to do everything I possibly can on my mind and if my baby doesn’t come by this date, I’ll schedule a C-section.” That’s similar to what you were thinking. That’s fine. That is totally okay. But there are other ways to induce. Like I was saying, sometimes the cervix isn’t in a prime state for those balloons. There are other things that they can do. They can actually start Pitocin on a really low, slow drip. The thing about Pitocin is that it’s not something that is going to open your cervix. It’s got to cause contractions and do its work. But it can get your cervix just enough where you can get a Foley or a Cook catheter.A long time ago, Julie had a personal client who was a VBAC after three C-section mom. In fact, I think she’s on the podcast. It was kind of that way where nothing was happening with her cervix at all. They were like, “No. We really suggest a C-section.” She was like, “No. Just start me on Pit.” She was on Pit for a really long time, but it got her open. It got her a catheter and went from there. You can start and you can do that where you get a low dose of Pit. These aren’t things that are normal. They are not as common, I should say. These are things that you are going to have to request and really talk to your provider to see if they are on board with doing this and if they can help you in that way. Sweeping membranes is a softer VBAC induction method. Sometimes scraping the membranes can stimulate, evening primrose oil, or nipple stimulation. Quite frankly, sex is a great, great tip to start softening that cervix. But if you’re past that point, yeah. Slow-dose Pit before a catheter is really wonderful. Sometimes providers are like, “Oh, we’ll just break your water right off the bat.” That’s fine too. It’s called artificial rupture of membranes, but it’s not necessarily as ideal because if you have a high baby or baby is in a wonky position or labor is not ready to start, then we still have Pitocin and things to come after that. I love how you were like, “My water broke on its own this time and I was so proud of my body.” It’s awesome. It’s more ideal for us to wait for our water to break spontaneously, but sometimes, artificial is the answer. Doing what is best for you and what is the most comfortable thing for you in that state. Going through this now, having had an induced VBAC after two C-sections, are there any tips that you would give to the listeners out there walking into that space? Ana: I would definitely say that an induction can take a long time. Do not feel pressure because even this time, it was 28 hours from start to finish. That’s a long time but everything was going fine. I mean, it doesn’t matter how long it takes as long as you are healthy and your baby is healthy. It can take days to be induced. Meagan: Mhmm, exactly. Ana: Don’t go in with the expectation, “I have to have a baby in 12 hours or 24 hours,” because that’s often not the case especially if it’s your first vaginal delivery. Pushing, usually, the second stage in your first delivery can take longer as well. I also would say to educate yourself on every method of induction even for VBAC specifically just so when every step you get to, you are educated and you can make whatever choice is best for you. Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. Again, whatever choice is best for you. Exactly what you were saying, that is how you find what choice is best for you. You get the education. You learn about VBAC. Learn about CBAC. You learn about induction. Learn about all of the things and then you are able to take charge and make the choice that is best for you, your family, your baby, and your experience. I love that so much. I’m so proud of you for going in and going for it and taking charge of your care and learning, listening, watching the stories, and all of the things so you could feel prepared. I’m so glad that you had a beautiful experience. Ana: Thank you. When I think about it, I’m still like, “I can’t believe I did that. I did that.” I’m like, “If I can do that, I can do anything.”Meagan: Right? Don’t you feel untouchable?Ana: Yeah, it’s so empowering. Meagan: Yes, it really is. That’s amazing. Birth should be empowering. Birth should be empowering. This is a big deal in our life. You might have little details fade, but you will never forget the day. I will never forget the day that each one of my kids was born. Our family was growing. Our family was transforming into this beautiful family of two, three, four, and five. It’s just something that I won’t ever forget. I want those memories to be happy and positive. Like I said, I didn’t desire either of my two C-sections, but I still can find the positive in them and have found healing. I’m so grateful for them because I wouldn’t be here probably today. I honestly wonder. I always wanted to be a labor and delivery nurse but I even wonder if I didn’t have those two C-sections if I would be here with you today and be so passionate about VBAC and understand VBAC the way I do. I don’t know if I would or if I wanted to be a doula. I don’t know. I wonder. I know you mentioned maybe wanted to be a doula one day. Do you feel like these births have inspired you from that or have you always wanted to be a birth worker?Ana: It’s actually kind of funny because when I was a little kid, I had a million baby dolls and I always would pretend to be a mom. I think that I was always drawn to being a mom and motherhood. Through my birth experiences and discovering all of the different aspects of the birth world, I think that came from my desire to just be with women. I’m so passionate about women and being empowered. Every woman should be educated and should never feel like they had no options or no choice. I think that’s the part that makes me so passionate. Definitely, experiences like my first experience in birth were traumatic and that definitely lit a fire in me to seek out all of the education and other women with like minds who had gone through similar things. I stay at home now, but I was a nail tech, so I would talk to women all of the time, all of my clients, and held their hands through them getting married and having babies. I’m always the person when they get pregnant, I tell them everything. I’m like, “You need to get this book. You should do that. Oh, do this.” They always say, “You would be so good at that. You would be a good doula. You would be a good nurse. You would be so good at that.” Meagan: It’s coming your way. It’s coming. You’re going to do it. You’ve got the passion. Oh, well thank you so much again for being with us today. Thank you for sharing your beautiful story. I know that just like everybody else you’re going to touch someone out there. There is going to be someone that connects to your story so much and listens to it on repeat because they are trying to do the exact same thing that you did. So thank you so much. We will have the induction blog in the show notes if you want to learn more about those methods of induction. Feel free to check that out and then we will also have a link for more about VBAC after two C-sections as well.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“I decided to start listening to my body instead of the doctor…”In preparation for her VBAC, Zoei found a wonderful midwife and a VBAC Link-trained doula. She did her research and stayed patient as her pregnancy carried on past 41 weeks. Once labor started, she was in it for the long haul. Unfortunately, a hospital shift change brought a new, unsupportive doctor who Zoei had never met. She felt the energy change. She recognized the fear tactics, but stood her ground.  You will find yourself both gasping and cheering with Zoei as you listen to her inspiring VBAC story! Zoei ends with her best tips on how to navigate labor when you unexpectedly find yourself under the care of an unsupportive provider. Additional linksThe VBAC Link Doula DirectoryThe VBAC Link Blog: How to Find a Truly Supportive ProviderThe VBAC Link Blog: Family-Centered CesareansHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. We are so excited to be with you today. I am hoping that it is Wednesday or maybe you’re just listening all over and it’s a Tuesday or a Saturday, but this is Wednesday and we are so excited to be back with you with another amazing story as usual. We have our friend, Zoei, today. She is from Washington and she is going to share her VBAC story with you. We’re going to talk a little bit about unsupportive providers, so if you are finding yourself stuck in that spot of not having a supportive provider, stick around because we are going to be sharing some tips. She’s even got a name to give you if you are in Washington, so hang tight and listen up for that. Review of the WeekMeagan: Before we dive into her amazing story, we are going to do, of course, a Review of the Week. This review is on Apple Podcasts and it says, “I got my VBAC. I am four days out from my VBAC. I told my husband today it was the greatest accomplishment of my life thus far. Thank you Julie and Meagan and all of the women of strength who have shared their stories. I cried so many times on my daily walks while listening to this podcast including the day before my TOLAC started. It was truly inspiring and one of my main resources in preparing for my VBAC and I will continue to listen to every new episode.”Well, this is from jmclane04, and thank you for your review. Congrats on your VBAC and I hope that you are still sticking around so you can hear your review today.Zoei’s story Meagan: Okay, Zoei. Thank you so much for being here with us today. I can’t wait to hear your story and how you navigated through working with a not-so-supportive provider.Zoei: Yeah, absolutely. I’m really excited to be here. Meagan: Well welcome, welcome. Dive right in. Zoei: All right. So when I had my son, he was ten days past due when I had him. He had been breech up until he was about 35 weeks. I had been really concerned about it actually because I know that breech can’t run in the family, but my brother was breech, my mother was breech, her mom was breech and I didn’t even know that that could happen. They were all breech so I was really concerned about it. I talked to my midwife and fortunately, my son flipped at about 39.5 weeks right before that cutoff where we would have to do something. Meagan: Oh yeah and kind of nerve-wracking. Zoei: Incredibly nerve-wracking because COVID was happening and we weren’t sure what the hospital policies were. They were changing nonstop so I was really anxious about it. But thankfully, he did flip at 39.5 weeks. It was crazy because when he flipped, I actually got this feeling of dread. I was so worried that something bad was going to happen to him or me during birth. I just couldn’t shake it. Whenever anything bad is going through my head, I usually just try to write it down to get it out, but every time I wrote it down, it would almost be a goodbye letter to my husband. Meagan: Oh. Zoei: I just could not shake it for the life of me which is crazy because I had complete faith in my body. I truly believe that our bodies are made to birth and that my body could do it, but I was just really afraid for the first time and it was the instant I found out he had flipped. So at 9 days past my due date, I woke up at 5:30 in the morning and I was getting this lower back pain pretty consistently and I was starting to go into labor. My husband hung out with me all day and we just were really chill for the whole day. By about 10:00 p.m., the midwife said that I was good to go into the birth center. My contractions were about two minutes apart, a minute each. But the thing was that even though I had been in labor that long and my contractions were so close together, I didn’t feel like anything was changing or adjusting in my body if that makes sense. Meagan: Yeah. No, yeah. Totally. I mean, that’s something that we talk about with our doula clients is that sometimes that pattern reflects really close to go-time, but that doesn’t always mean that physically inside things are changing the way that you would think the pattern would show. Zoei: Yes. I had watched my best friend give an all-natural, unmedicated birth to her daughter and what I saw happening with her was not physically happening to me. I could think through each contraction and it just felt like the contractions were all that was happening. My son was still moving. He was doing good, but nothing was changing in my body which was kind of adding to my feeling that something was wrong. We get to the birth center at about midnight and my midwife checks me. I’m barely a centimeter dilated if that. Meagan: Mmm. Zoei: Yes. She’s about to send me home. She’s like, “You’re a first-time mom. It happens. It’s just one of those things.” She sits and watches me for a few contractions and she was like, “You know, I think I’m going to have you stay for a little bit if you’re okay.” Absolutely. She has me lying in bed. My husband is behind me so I lay into him through each contraction. My midwife gave me these pills. I’m not quite sure what they were, but it was to ease any anxiety between each contraction. Meagan: Oh, I can see it because I have had a client that has been given them. Did you put it under your tongue?Zoei: Yes. Meagan: Yeah. Oh, what is it? I’m going to think about it. We’ll come back, but I have had clients that have had that and it did help them. Zoei: Perfect. Yes. Yes, and it did. I was laying into my husband between each contraction and relaxed and then went through the next one. My midwife was telling me to vocalize between each contraction, but I didn’t have an urge to do that. I didn’t really need to which was another thing that just felt a little odd for birth.So it was midnight when that happened. At about 5:00 a.m., my midwife woke me up because I had actually fallen asleep. My contractions had basically stopped. So 24 hours after they started, they stopped all on their own. She asked if she could do a cervical check because she wanted to know what was going on. I agreed and she does a cervical check. The first thing she says is, “Wow, you’re handling this really well,” because I guess some people get pain with cervical checks. But the instant she did it, I felt almost a relief of pressure inside.She finishes. I still haven’t really dilated. She tells me that she thinks that my son is stuck behind my pelvis and she would like to transfer me to the hospital. As soon as she said that, I had this wave of relief like maybe I haven’t been crazy this whole time. Meagan: Yeah. Zoei: We go to the hospital. We check-in. It’s COVID, so there’s not really anyone in the labor and delivery other than those needed. We honestly just had the best experience from there. My midwife met us at the hospital and she was like, “These are the options that we have for you. We’re pretty sure he’s stuck behind your pelvis.” We didn’t know the gender at the time, so she was just saying, “The baby”. We had the option to do Pitocin to possibly jumpstart my contractions. She said, “It could push the baby into where he needs to be, but you can be in labor for up to three days or we can do a C-section.” I took a moment to talk to my husband. Hearing that Pitocin could push my baby into where he needed to be sounded so scary to me. I’m like, “I don’t like to be pushed as an adult. I don’t want to push my newborn and possibly hurt him.”So we decided to do a C-section. It was really amazing because I had a really hard time coming to that conclusion. The midwife came in and she asked how we were feeling. I started asking all of these questions about C-sections because I was stalling. I didn’t want to say that I wanted a C-section because it felt like giving up.My midwife looks at me and says, “You have permission to have a C-section. It is okay if that is what you need to do. You’ve done everything you can.” I just started crying. It was just exactly what I needed to hear. Meagan: Because you felt relief? Yeah.Zoei: Yes. Yes. I needed to know that it was okay for me to do that. We were so lucky. I hadn’t done any research on C-sections at all. Every single person that was going to be in my birth room took the time to come in and introduce themselves. They told me exactly what they were doing, and asked me what I wanted out of this birth. They offered me the clear drape. I didn’t even know that was a thing, so I was incredibly fortunate. We get into the room for the C-section. They do the spinal tap. They bring my husband in afterward. I get really nauseous. The anesthesiologist is on top of it. He gives me medication to help with it. At this point, I was just so exhausted and everything felt fuzzy, but I was still there which was nice.They started to lift my son out of me and we didn’t know the gender. They lifted him up and I just remember the umbilical cord was in the way, so we still didn’t know if it was a boy or a girl. They moved the umbilical cord. We found out it was a boy and we were so excited. All of a sudden, everyone in the room was taking bets on how much he was going to way. They were like, “Oh my gosh, he’s huge.” It was just such a lighthearted, wonderful thing. My son was 10 pounds, 1 ounce and it was just great. We were so excited. They put him on my chest and something that I’ll never really forget though is that they put him on my chest and I couldn’t even feel excited. I was just so exhausted and I had so many drugs running through my system. I looked at my husband and I asked him to take our son. I was like, “I’m just so tired.” My husband scooped him up on me. They finished sewing me up and they wheeled me back. I was sweating so much that they couldn’t even stick anything on me. Everything was sliding off. I remember all of those small things. When it was time for me to get to bond with my son, I felt really protective of him but I wouldn’t say that I had that immediate love for him. I would do anything for him. I would make sure he was okay. But everyone always talks about this overwhelming sense of love you have as soon as your baby is born. I just felt really protective over him and it took a little bit for that love to come in. But it did. I was able to breastfeed him and we had an amazing breastfeeding journey for about 20 months. When my son was about a year and a half, my husband and I decided to try for another baby. We got pregnant right away. At this point, we had moved to Wenatchee, Washington. As soon as we found out we were pregnant, my husband actually started calling the midwives and the birth centers. That’s how we found out that they don’t do VBACs here in Washington.I started doing a lot of research and I found an amazing provider. Her name is Bridget Kamen and she was the most amazing provider I could have found. Something else I wanted to add is that after I had my son, my midwife had come in and she was like, “You would be an amazing candidate for a VBAC.” My husband was like, “What’s a VBAC?” He looked at me and asked. I thought it was a vacuum birth. I didn’t know. That’s how little I knew. Meagan: Vacuum, VBAC. I mean, V. Vacuum. Zoei: Yes. I just assumed that because my son was stuck, she was saying that in case the next one is, it could be a vacuum birth. Meagan: I could totally see how you would have related that. I really do. Zoei: I just had no idea. It’s crazy that once you have a C-section, it’s like a stamp. You are forever a VBAC or another C-section. I had no idea. But you don’t know what you don’t know. So back to being pregnant with my second, I found the most amazing provider and I knew right away that I would need support. I was so worried about a hospital because you hear those horror stories about how you just get pushed around and bullied in a hospital sometimes. Meagan: It can happen. Zoei: Yes. I don’t think that’s normal, but I know that it can happen and I didn’t want to have to feel like I was fighting. So I messaged a couple of doulas. I met up with them and they weren’t the right fit for me. Then I remembered that The VBAC Link has a full list of doulas that are certified through you guys and I really wanted someone that knew about VBAC. I went and looked at your list. There was a small handful in Washington, but one of them was in Wenatchee. I reached out. Her name is Christine Potter and she was amazing. The instant I met her, I knew that she was perfect. She was so warm and kind and supportive. I remember my son was just running around everywhere at this cafe where we met. She looks at me and she goes, “There’s a park down the street. Do you want to walk there?” We started walking to the park and it was icy. I’m holding my son and I almost slip. She didn’t even hesitate. She reached over, picked up my son out of my arms, and started walking with him instead. I knew right away that she was perfect. She preemptively helped with everything before I even realized that I needed help. Meagan: That’s how it should be though. Zoei: Yes, yes. It was amazing. She saw my needs before even I realized that I needed them. She was like that throughout the entire pregnancy. I had a really normal pregnancy. With my first, I gained about 70 pounds, and then with this one, I gained about 50. I was walking. I was a lot more active. You can’t sit around as much when you have a toddler. Around 36 weeks, my doctor and I sat down and were talking about what I’m looking for with my birth. She’s like, “I know you said you don’t want to be induced. What is that looking like for you?” I was like, “Well, I would really prefer not to be induced. I don’t want Pitocin. I don’t want an epidural. I’d really like for my body to do things as naturally as possible.” She was like, “Okay. If you change your mind, just let me know.” That was the whole conversation. It was amazing. Meagan: Yeah. Zoei: She knew that my son was 10 pounds, 1 ounce. Every now and then, she’d ask if this baby felt any larger. I was like, “I really couldn’t even tell you. It’s such a different pregnancy. I wouldn’t know.” At about 36 weeks, every time I went in, the nurse that would check me in would ask me if I was ready for my cervical check. Each time, I would say, “No, thank you. No, thank you. No, thank you.” At 38 weeks, I decided to ask my doctor, “Hey. I’ve done my research, but is there really any reason for a cervical check that I should know about?” It was really nice because she was just really upfront and really honest. She was like, “No. There is honestly no reason for a cervical check unless you want a membrane sweep or if you are just interested in where your body is at. It doesn’t make a difference and it doesn’t do anything,” which was perfect. When I hit 39 weeks, my older sister came to stay with us. We don’t have any family in the area, so she was here to be here until we had the baby to be able to watch our son. Over the next week up until my due date, we were walking every day. We were being really active and just trying to get the baby out. I hit 40 weeks and my husband and I sit down. We decided that at my next doctor’s appointment, I would ask for a membrane sweep. I would do a cervical check, get the membrane sweep, and go from there. Because my son was so late, I just had it in my head that if I went past 41 weeks, it would hit that spot for me of starting to be more afraid of a VBAC and the reality of it. I didn’t want to be thinking about a C-section while I was working so hard for this VBAC. At 41 weeks and 3 days, I go to my doctor’s appointment to do a membrane sweep. I get there and the nurse is– it was really crazy because the nurse who had been asking if I wanted the cervical check each time was like, “I can’t believe you’re still pregnant. Are we planning your induction today? What are we doing?” I was like, “No, no, no. We’re just going to do a cervical check. I don’t want an induction.” So it’s 2:00 in the afternoon. I’m three days past my due date. My doctor comes in. She does the cervical check and I’m not dilated at all. So they can’t do the membrane sweep. At this point, it was almost again, a release like it was out of my hands. I felt conflicted about it. I wanted my body to do things naturally and on its own, but I was so worried about going past 41 weeks that we had decided to do a membrane sweep if it was possible, but because I wasn’t dilated at all, it wasn’t possible. It was just like, “Okay. It’s out of my hands. I’ve done everything I can. Whatever happens at this point happens.” We leave the doctor’s appointment and we go to the park with my son and my best friend and her kiddo, my sister, my husband, and we just spent the rest of the day really just enjoying the moment and getting to be outside and getting to be together. Between 5:00 and 6:00, I realized that I was getting a lot of Braxton Hicks. They were just still going and going. Usually, they taper off and die down. Around 7:00, I realized that they were still going. So I decided to start casually looking at my watch and seeing how far apart they are. They were about 5-7 minutes apart. After I realized that, I started timing them in between. They were about an hour, excuse me. They were about a minute each. So they were 5-7 minutes apart, a minute each, but they just felt like Braxton Hicks so I’m like, “Oh, my body is just doing its thing.” At about 10:00, it was still going. I stand up and my sister looks at me. My husband looks at me and I look down and my stomach has dropped. It is the lowest it has ever been because my son didn’t drop. We were like, “Whoa. That’s crazy.” I’m still thinking that this is just prodromal labor, Braxton Hicks. At about 10:00, I decided that I was going to go lay down. I lay down in bed and all of a sudden, they get so much stronger. I can’t sleep through them. I’m really uncomfortable. At midnight, I decided to draw a bath. I’m like, “If this is prodromal labor, a bath should help it stop so I can get some sleep tonight.” As I’m drawing my bath, it wakes up my husband and he comes in. He sits next to me and I try and convince him to go back to sleep. I’m like, “This is nothing. It’s just prodromal labor and if it’s not, then you should still get some sleep before anything happens.”He’s like, “No. I’m not leaving.” So he sat next to me and I have him text my doula and tell her that they are 5 minutes apart, about a minute each, but I am still not quite convinced that anything is happening. Probably within 15 minutes of being in the bath, my contractions go from 5-7 minutes down to 2 minutes apart, a minute each. I’m someone who always thought I would want this natural, beautiful water birth and I hated being in the water. I hated it. I wanted to move. I felt so trapped and I needed to be moving. Meagan: Isn’t that funny how that works? You have this whole vision. I always envisioned giving birth in the tub and I gave birth on the bathroom floor. Zoei: It is. No, I just was like, “I need to move. I can’t just sit in this water anymore.” My contractions within an hour went from 5 minutes apart down to 2 minutes apart, still a minute each, and it’s all in my back. It was just really strong. My doula messages me and she is like, “Your contractions are pretty close together. Are you ready for some more support?” I say yes, so she comes over. At this point, my husband and I are in the living room. I’m on the birth ball. I’m moving. I’m using hip support during each contraction. I go and I wake up my sister. I’m like, “Hey, I think I’m actually in labor and I just want you to know that you are going to be here alone with our son soon.” So she comes out into the living room also to be a big support. My sister is almost like my mom. She is 9 years older, so she was always really great about being there for whatever I needed as well. My doula gets there probably at about 1:30. She starts doing some rebozo on me and starts having my husband do some rebozo on me. They try and do some counterpressure and again, I hate it. I’m like, “Don’t touch me. I know you’re trying to help me. Don’t touch me.” At this point, they are still 2 minutes apart, a minute each and I’m getting really vocal. I didn’t feel the need to get vocal with my son at all, but this one, I understood what my midwife was asking me to do the first time. I couldn’t help it. They were these deep moans. I was getting really worried about waking up my son in the other room, so we decided to go to the hospital at 3:00 a.m. It’s a little over 12 hours since I had been at the doctor and I hadn’t been dilated at all. We get to the hospital. They check me in and I am maybe a centimeter dilated. I’m like, “Okay, well, almost exactly like what happened with my son, right?”Meagan: Yeah, but you were feeling further this time, right?Zoei: Yes, definitely. I could feel the changes in my body this time and I didn’t feel the changes at all with my son. So I was like, “Things are happening now. I understand now. I see what was missing the first time.”We go ahead and they decide to check me in because my contractions are still so close together. They are consistently 2 minutes apart. The nurses look at my doula and they were like, “Hey, has it been back labor the whole time?” She says, “Yes.” So again, she knew right away what was happening and I wasn’t sure, but my baby was OP. Her spine was to my spine. It was miserable. I had planned for unmedicated. I wanted to be able to move around. I wanted to be able to experience this birth, but more than anything, I wanted to be able to enjoy it. I told my husband, “I am not going to be able to enjoy this as long as I have this back labor. I need an epidural.” He was really supportive. He’s like, “I want to make sure that you actually want this because you’ve talked so much about not wanting an epidural.” I was like, “It’s so important for me to be able to look back and be excited about this birth and not look back and cringe about how much pain I was in the whole time.” It gets to be about 6:00 a.m. and I ask the nurse when I can have an epidural. They didn’t check me again, so as far as they know, I’m still at 1 centimeter. They were like, “We will order one for you right now.” They were like, “The only thing we ask is that while you can still be up and moving around, have your doula do some more rebozo on you to try and flip the baby around.” I go and I sit on the toilet backward. Christine starts doing some rebozo trying to help flip the baby. Baby is just not having it. By 6:30, I have the epidural. It starts working immediately and I can feel my legs which was fantastic. It just numbed the pain which was great, but I could still move around in the bed with no issues at all. At 7:00 a.m., it was a shift change and that is when I met my new doctor. I hadn’t had another cervical check since I had first been checked in and this doctor walks in at 7:30 and he introduces himself. He sits down, leans forward, and looks at me. At this point, I think he’s only read my chart. The first thing he says is, “Do you want more kids?”Meagan: What?Zoei: Yeah. I was like, “We talk about having a third sometimes,” and he’s just sitting there silent. I’m like, “Are you asking because of the C-section?” because he didn't say anything after that. He was like, “Yes I am.” I was like, “Okay, why are you asking that?” He was like, “Well, at this point, our fear is that the same exact thing is happening that happened with your first. You had such a large baby the first time and shoulder dystocia is such a tragic thing when it happens. With a VBAC, you can rupture and although it might not happen when it does, it is absolutely awful and tragic.” He’s really laying it on. Meagan: So lots of fear. Lots of fear was poured out onto you. You are in a very vulnerable state already. Zoei: Yes. Yes. I was like, “I understand. I have done the research, but I really am looking forward to doing this VBAC.” He was like, “Okay, but why? Why do you even want to have birth naturally?” Meagan: Oh my gosh. Zoei: Right? At this point, my doula has also left. After I got the epidural, she asked if it was okay if she went home to sleep. I was like, “Absolutely. Go for it.” She had her phone on loud, so at this point, it was the doctor, me, and my husband. I’m like, “I want a VBAC because I have a two-year-old at home that I need to be able to go home and play with. It’s really important to me because I wasn’t mentally present when my son was born. I just felt really out of it and I really want to be mentally present for this baby.”He’s like, “Okay, but I don’t even think that your body is going to be able to progress past what it already is. You haven’t done it before.” I was like, “Okay. I’m not concerned about what my body is able to do. If you would like to do a cervical check to see where I am, that is completely fine, but I am not worried about it.” He actually word-for-word says, “Okay. Well, I would like to see if your bony pelvis is even capable of birthing a child.” Meagan: Oh boy. And he has never touched you before? Or even seen you? Yeah.Zoei: No. First time meeting him. No. I have this huge blanket over me. He can’t even see my pelvis for starters. Meagan: He’s already diagnosing your pelvis as a bony pelvis. Zoei: Yes. Correct. Meagan: Okay. Zoei: He keeps trying to tell me about how he doesn’t think I’m going to progress at all. It goes on for about 20 minutes before he has even checked me still and it gets to the point where I tell him, “Can you please do the cervical check? If I’m not dilated past the 1, we can keep talking about what you are talking about, but unless I or baby is in danger, I am planning on this VBAC.” He lets me know right then that baby being in danger is really subjective to what the doctor views as danger. Meagan: Oh! Okay. Zoei: I just said, “Can we please do the cervical check?” We do the cervical check and lo and behold, I’m 4 centimeters. Meagan: Woohoo!Zoei: Yes. It was funny because he was like, “That’s interesting. When I started the cervical check, you were at a 1, but now you are at a 4. So he was saying that while he did it, I went from a 1 to a 4. I’m like, “I don’t even know if that’s possible, but whatever. You can see that my body is progressing.” Meagan: Yeah. Zoei: He gives the okay for me to continue. Or I guess he gives me his blessing to continue the VBAC because I was doing it one way or another. He leaves the room and my husband and I just sleep. We sleep until about noon which was when our doula came back. Around 2:00, the nurse comes in and asked if she could do a cervical check. I’m still only at a 4. Nothing has changed at all. But my contractions were still really consistently every 2 minutes apart because you could see it on the monitor. Baby’s heart rate was great. They weren’t worried. They just let me keep doing what my body wanted to. Oh, also, because I could move, every hour, I was changing positions with the peanut ball. I would be on my right side for an hour, then my left side for an hour, and I just kept going back and forth. So probably about 4:00, I decide that I want to see if gravity can help at all. My doula and my husband helped me get onto all fours on the bed and they start doing some rebozo work for me. She does it for a little bit, and then she shows my husband how to do it and he does it. I’m in that position for about an hour and then after that, we do the throne position for an hour. By then, I’m exhausted again. With an epidural, it’s really easy to forget that your body is running a marathon. So while you’re getting exhausted and you think that you’re just sitting there–Meagan: You’re not. Zoei: No. Your body is doing so much work. Meagan: Yep. Yep. Zoei: I’m exhausted and I decide to lie down for a little bit. The doctor comes in at about 6:00 and he checks me. I’m at a 7. After that, about every hour, the nurse would ask me if I wanted a cervical check. I kept declining because I could start to feel pressure in my pelvis and so I knew that we were getting closer, but I didn’t want to do a cervical check and have them see that I was at a 10 and try and get me to start pushing because I really learned a lot listening to your podcast that just because you’re at a 10 doesn’t mean that you’re ready to have the baby. I kept declining until I was feeling a lot of pressure between my bottom and my pelvis. I felt just a lot of pressure had built. At about 10:15, my nurse checks me and she says that I am at least at a 9, but she didn’t want to check further than that because my water was bulging. It hadn’t broken yet. I’m like, “Okay great. I’m going to go nap some more.” And then, I woke up at 11:15 to the doctor coming in. He has two other nurses with him. They walk in and the doctor wakes me up. He has me lay on my back and he says that we are about to get going. What I didn’t know at this point was that my daughter’s heart rate had been having these small drops. So at 11:15, they get everything all set up. It was funny because we had actually planned to have my husband catch the baby, so my doctor walks my husband through what that was going to look like. I’m on my back and he’s like, “With this next contraction, I want you to bear down.” I did and my water broke. The doctor, at this point, looks at me. It’s the same doctor as in the beginning and he says, “Okay. You can’t feel your contractions so I’m going to tell you when to push.” I let him know that I actually can feel my contractions so I will be pushing on my own. Meagan: I was going to say, did he ask?Zoei: No, he kept telling me what was happening with my body. He kept not asking me. Meagan: Oh man. Zoei: I was like, “I will be doing this, thank you.” He was like, “Well, you can try.” This man has the audacity to turn around and start talking to a nurse during my next three contractions. Each one, I’m pushing. I’m not making any sounds, but I’m pushing. Meagan: Yeah. Zoei: He turns back to me and he’s like, “Are you going to start pushing?” The nurse who was with me was like, “She’s been pushing each time.” He looks at me. Again, hasn’t even watched me through a contraction. He was like, “You are going to have to push a lot harder with each contraction if you want this baby out.” He continues with, “This baby is OP which means it’s going to be a lot harder and a lot more work. It’s going to be a lot more difficult. You’re going to be pushing for hours so you are going to need to be prepared for that.” Oh, I was just completely just tuning him out at this point. He’s not helping me. He’s not mentally encouraging me. He’s just telling me how hard it’s going to be over and over again. He finally watches me push on the next one and he’s like, “Oh, that wasn’t bad.” Thank you. I’m aware. I’m still on my back and it feels so uncomfortable. I know I have the epidural and I’m feeling all of the pressure, but I do not want to be on my back. I look at him and I’m like, “Hey. I would like to move on to all fours. Is that okay?” He stops and looks at me. He says, “Well, I guess you can, but you’re going to make it a lot harder for me and the nurse if you do that.” Meagan: Okay, well thank you for letting me know. Yeah. Sorry I am making it harder on you. Zoei: Yes. This is not your birth. This is my birth. Meagan: I’m pushing a baby out of my vagina right now. Zoei: Yep. So it’s 11:15 and he sends the two nurses that he brought in away. It’s me, my husband, my doula, the doctor, and the nurse that is assigned to me. I switch onto all fours and my baby’s heart rate evens out. He’s like, “Oh, it looks like the baby actually really likes that position.” So I’m pushing with each contraction, but again, I don’t feel this need to push. I’m almost getting frustrated that I’m pushing because I don’t want to be. Nothing in me is saying “push”. I know I’ve had the epidural and I know it can numb you, but at this point, it felt like my body had told me everything to do, so I don’t know why I wasn’t listening to it. I decided to start listening to my body instead of the doctors and I stop pushing. I’m on all fours and I just start swaying my hips back and forth. I do that for about three contractions and the nurse really kindly and really gently is like, “Hey, you’re having a contraction.” I was like, “I know. I’m taking a break.”At midnight, the doctor walks over to the nurse, doesn’t look at me, doesn’t say anything and he says to the nurse, “Baby is still OP. This is going to take a while. I’m going to go do other things,” and he walks out. My first thought is, “Why am I pushing if he doesn’t even think I’m going to have this baby anytime soon?”I turn and I say that to the nurse. She’s like, “Well, it can just take a lot of time.” I was like, “I don’t think I should be pushing, so I would like to just labor longer.” The nurse and my doula start talking about the best position to get me in to sit there and labor more. I’m still on all fours and I’m swaying my hips. I keep going into the resting child position and I can’t stop moving. I feel so much pressure. I don’t feel the need to push, but I can’t stop moving. It feels almost like this tingling is happening. At 12:08, I go into the resting child position and I feel my daughter flip and go directly into my pelvis. Immediately, I knew I needed to push. Meagan: Whoa, that’s amazing. Zoei: Yes, it was 8 minutes after the doctor left the room. She dropped so far down that I actually reached my hand down to see if I could feel her head because it was just so quick and sudden. I came back up and all I had was just some blood on my hand, but I was like, “It’s about to happen.” I’m on all fours and all of a sudden, I start pooping. The nurse goes to clean me up and she sees the head start coming out. She runs over and presses a button and she calls anyone that is in the hallway. She runs back up to me and she is like, “You need to slow down.” The only thought I had was, “I’m not slowing down for anyone.” My doctor chose to leave. I am doing this. I go and it was absolutely amazing because I felt everything. It felt so natural and so right. Within two or three pushes, she was completely out. A nurse had run in and caught her. She was, as they put it, a little floppy when she was born, so they had to cut the umbilical cord pretty quick and bring her over to their little warming area and help her out for a minute. She didn’t get immediately placed on my chest or anything, but that was totally fine. I was just so excited and so proud that I had done it. The doctor walks in five minutes later. And he’s just like, “Wow, that happened really fast.” I had a second-degree tear. Again, you would think at this point that he would start asking me questions, but he was like, “You can’t feel anything so I’m going to start stitching you.”I tell him again, “I can feel everything.” So he gives me a little bit of numbing but not enough to numb everything. But he finishes stitching me up. One of my really big fears was actually that I would feel an immediate love and connection to this baby when I didn’t with my first. I was really worried about the guilt that would come with that. But for me, it was almost cool because I didn’t feel that immediate love for this baby either. Not in a bad way, I felt so protective and I knew that she was mine, but you give birth to a little stranger, you know? That’s not wrong. There’s no issue with that because I still knew that I would do anything for her, super protective, but just like with my son, it just took a little bit for those love hormones to really hit me hard. That was my VBAC. It was amazing and I got to come home. I got to play with my son and I got to hold him. It was just exactly what I wanted it to be. Meagan: I love that. I love that. I hate when providers doubt, but I love when people prove providers wrong. It’s so bad. Zoei: It was my favorite part. I’m not going to lie to you. Meagan: You know, that was one of the things right after I had my baby. I was like, “Yeah. I did that.” I said his name. I was like, “Yep. I did that.” In fact, I actually said, “Screw you.” Zoei: It was so funny. My doula took notes. Yes, exactly. My doula took notes through the entire birthing process to be able to give to me later and when the doctor left the room, she actually wrote a specific note saying, “So glad he left. He was not bringing any good energy.” And then after I gave birth to my daughter, she wrote a note saying, “Gave birth. Doing amazing. Felt good to just almost give a giant ‘screw you’ to the doctor.”Meagan: I know and I don’t want to feel that way. I really don’t, but man. Zoei: But it feels kinda good. Meagan: It does feel good and there was no reason to doubt when nothing was telling anybody anything but positive. Zoei: Yes, exactly.Meagan: He brought this negative feeling into this space that was undesired and placed fear, and doubt. It’s so hard. It’s so hard. You had started with a shift change and here you meet your new doctor who is already telling you that your pelvis is probably bony and things like that. I would say, what would be one of your tips to our listeners because unfortunately, this happens all of the time when we are with our supportive provider, yet that supportive provider is unable to specialize. I call it “specialize” meaning to only see and catch your baby. They are in shifts, which, I understand why these providers out there work shifts. It’s hard work. They are long shifts. They get tired. They get burned out. We are grateful for all of the providers out there. But what tips would you personally give to anyone that one, maybe going into it with an unsupportive provider because they are unable to find a supportive provider in their area, and two, dealing with that shift and that doubt and that fear that was placed? Zoei: I think that the biggest thing to remember is that you and the doctor have the same exact goal. You both want a healthy baby and a healthy mom. But you guys might have two different routes on how to get there. That doesn’t mean that either is wrong, but I think that just knowing that you have the final say is. It’s not up to the doctor. Really, anything that they are saying is a suggestion. It’s up to you. It’s your body. It’s your baby and it’s your birth. They’re not going to look back on your birth and be like, “Oh wow, such a great job.” If it’s a C-section, they might look back and be like, “Wow, that was some great stitch work,” right? If it’s vaginal, “Wow, that went really smoothly,” but it’s your birth. You have to live with it. Meagan: Mmhmm. I love that. Zoei: Yes. You’re not going to forget it. You’re going to look back on it. It’s your birth story, not their birth story. Meagan: Yeah, and that is something even when I was debating on changing providers. In the end, I loved that provider, but in the end, this is an experience that I am going to live with for the rest of my life, that I am going to hold onto. Although, I agree. Our providers are there to have a safe mom and a safe baby with everyone healthy and happy. That is true. However, they are not going to live with this experience for the rest of their life more than likely. Some providers may hold onto it. I’m sure they have births that they hold onto, but yeah. It’s more unlikely that they are going to remember your birth forever. Zoei: People aren’t going to go up to them and be like, “Hey, how was that birth today?” like how people will go up to you, “How was the birth?”Meagan: Right. Or, “Do you remember that birth four years ago?” And they would be like, “Uhh, kinda.”Zoei: “Which one? I had five that day.” Meagan: Exactly. So it’s your birth. It’s your baby. It’s your experience and it’s okay for you to stand up. We do have a blog on VBAC-friendly care providers and all of the different types of providers because we have got midwives. We have family doctors. We have OBGYNs. We have MFMs which are maternal-fetal medicine doctors. We have a love of people that can help with VBAC. It’s just finding the right provider for you. This blog talks all about that. How to find out whether they are truly supportive or not, questions, we have some questions in there. If you are looking to start interviewing VBAC providers, check out our blog at thevbaclink.com/blog. It’s all about finding a supportive provider. We’ve got lots of questions in there that you can take with you while you are interviewing providers. Even if you’re not interviewing providers, feel free to take the questions with you to your prenatals. They always say, “Do you have any questions?” Well, usually, in prenatal visits, and a lot of the times, we don’t really have any questions or we don’t really know what questions to ask. But a lot of these questions are really great to do a little check-in and see if your provider is truly supportive of your desires of the way you want to birth. Sometimes that’s in regards to a VBAC and sometimes that’s maybe through your research and you are learning that you are not comfortable or you are not desiring a VBAC. Talk about a CBAC or talk about having a scheduled Cesarean. Ask those questions as well. We also have a blog on CBAC if you are not wanting to VBAC and how to do a family-centered Cesarean as well. We will provide those in the show notes for you and definitely suggest taking these with you along with your provider because it can help. And if you’re like Zoei and you run into a situation where a nonsupportive provider comes in, like she said, stand your ground. This is your birth. It’s okay to be strong. It’s okay to advocate for yourself. So I’m proud of you. So happy for you. Huge congrats and thank you so much for being with us today. Zoei: Thank you so much. I’m so glad to be here and just have one more thing to add. If any doctor is trying to use fear tactics, the last thing you want to do is make a decision out of fear. Meagan: Yes.Zoei: That is not going to give you the results that you want.Meagan: Yes. Zoei: Do what your heart is telling you but don’t do it because you are afraid.Meagan: Yeah. Earlier before we started talking, you were talking about, “Don’t make a decision that is fueled by fear.” That can happen. Sometimes, when you’ve got scary things coming in and being said, you feel like you have to make a quick decision. Zoei: Mhmm. Meagan: Because those scary things seem urgent. Sometimes it might be. Sometimes it’s like, “We have to go down for a C-section,” and you have to make those decisions really quickly, but a lot of the time, you can stop. Wait. Discuss. Look at the pros, the cons, and the alternatives, and really go through things. Do not make a decision that is fueled by fear, but fueled by education, peace, knowledge, and following your intuition. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We polled our social media followers asking what more you’d like to see from The VBAC Link. You asked for more stories about vaginal births after multiple Cesareans. Well, today is that day. We LOVE our VBAMC mamas!Sarah-Ann joins us from Canada to share her beautiful journey of healing and empowerment through her two Cesarean birth experiences, lots of research, a supportive community, and The VBAC Link podcast. She gives so many great ideas on how to prepare physically, spiritually, and mentally for a VBA2C. Sarah-Ann defied the doctors who told her that her pelvis was too small and that a VBAC after two C-sections was literally impossible. Sarah-Ann, we applaud your courage and are so proud of you!Additional linksThe VBAC Link Facebook CommunityThe VBAC Link Blog: Why Failure to Progress is Usually Failure to WaitFive Minute Fear Release VideoHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Hello, hello. This is Meagan with The VBAC Link. I still don’t know when it’s going to be normal for me to not have Julie on here with me. It’s still so weird to not say this is Julie and Meagan, but this is Meagan and I’m so excited to be with you guys today. Back when school was starting, I posted on social media and asked people what they would like to see from The VBAC Link now that all of my kids are in school full time. I’m really going to be diving in on The VBAC Link. A lot of people said that they want more stories of vaginal birth after two Cesareans. Today is that day. We have a VBA2C story with you today. We have our friend, Sarah-Ann, and she is going to talk about her journey through her two C-sections and then her VBAC. Before we started recording, we talked about a lot of similarities between her and my history with Cesarean and how crazy it is that if you go through so many people’s journeys, and if you go through all of these episodes, you’re going to find a lot of similarities with misconceptions. Some of those misconceptions are a small pelvis, a big baby, your body can’t dilate, failure to progress, and all of these things. She has similar things like I did in my story, so I’m excited to hear more about what she went through and how she navigated through into a vaginal birth after two C-sections. At the end, we are going to talk a little bit more about those misconceptions and what we can do to avoid them and educate ourselves so that if they do come up, we know how to navigate that. Review of the WeekMeagan: Of course, I have a Review of the Week, so I’m going to jump right into that, and then we will get into this wonderful story. This is from Renee. It’s from Apple Podcasts. Her tag is, Re-nee-nee, but I’m thinking it’s Renee. It says, “Best Podcast Ever. I am so happy I found this podcast. I had a C-section in early 2019 after two days of failed induction. It really caused a lot of stress on me and even though recovery was fine, my emotions were all over the place. I knew the minute we started trying for our second, I wanted to try for a VBAC. Listening to these stories helped me become so educated and confident in my body. I did have my successful VBAC last month and couldn’t be happier. I’ve learned that believing in yourself and having a provider in your corner really makes all the difference. Julie and Meagan are inspirational, positive, and so easy to listen to.”Aww, that makes me so happy. Thank you, Renee, or Re-nee-nee. Congrats on your VBAC and thank you for sharing with us. Just like she said, there are so many factors that come into play when going for a VBAC and not even just for a VBAC, just having a baby in general. You really want to have that supportive provider who supports the desires of the way you want to birth. You want to have a supportive community feel whether it be a doula, family member, of course, birth partner, you want everyone in your space to be in your corner. It really does make a difference. If you haven’t already, please leave us a review. I love seeing the emails come in and adding them to this queue so we can read them here on the podcast. You can leave them on Apple Podcasts, Google, and Facebook. You can email us. You can Instagram message us. You can Facebook message us. Google review, wherever you are, you can leave a review. We would love it and we may just be reading your review on the next podcast. Sarah-Ann’s storyMeagan: Okay, Ms. Sarah-Ann. Sarah-Ann: Hello! Meagan: Are you excited? I’m so excited. Sarah-Ann: I’m very excited, yes. Meagan: I really appreciate you being here today and like I said, so many of our followers are wanting more vaginal birth after multiple Cesarean stories because sadly, in today’s world, it’s harder to not even achieve but to find a provider to support you in vaginal birth after multiple Cesareans. So thank you for being here today and I’m so excited about your story. Do you have anything that you’d like to tell our audience before you’d like to dive into your story?Sarah-Ann: You know, I think I’m just really excited to share my story and like you said, the provider thing is huge which I will touch on, and then yeah. I’m very, very excited. I applied two years ago to be on the podcast, and so when I got that email, I pretty much jumped for joy. Meagan: I know. We took our big, long break and everything. It’s so good to be back. I’m loving all of the stories and it is so fun. We have seriously so many podcast submissions. It was so fun to go back to some of the old ones and send out those emails and see. Because yeah, we sent out a lot of emails and it was like, boom. Scheduled! We are so grateful for you. I would love to turn the time over to you to share these beautiful stories of yours. Sarah-Ann: Okay, wonderful. Thank you so much for that. I think the way that I want to kick things off is that I want to touch a little bit on prebaby because it kind of tells the full story. But before I do, I just want to mention a trigger warning. I will touch on the topic of miscarriage. When my husband and I finally decided that we were going to start trying for a baby, I was very, very naive when it came to anything regarding planning for a baby, the conception process, and just the overall pregnancy journey. So when I did get pregnant after three or four months of trying, I was absolutely elated. I immediately began planning everything, but what actually ended up happening was that I had a miscarriage. I found out at about the 9-week mark just at a routine ultrasound that the baby had stopped growing around 5-6 weeks. I felt very, very betrayed by my body and very angry that I had lost this opportunity to enjoy any sort of, in my mind at the time, it was being able to enjoy any future pregnancies. That ignorant bliss, I guess, for a lack of a better word. But what ended up happening was that I was actually pregnant within one cycle after the miscarriage. To put it into perspective, I had a D&C on April 11th, and then by June 10th, I had a positive pregnancy test in my hand. I really didn’t allow myself a lot of time to grieve or go through the process of all the emotions from the miscarriage which, subsequently, also carried into my second pregnancy. With my first baby, I was pregnant with my firstborn and I quite literally was a complete puddle of emotion the entire pregnancy. Anything that I felt or I didn’t feel created extreme anxiety for me. I literally worried about everything. Because of that experience of going through the miscarriage, I let fear play a large role in how my pregnancy played out. I think that parts of it actually contributed to my C-section. For example, I stopped moving in any way. I stopped exercising. I was quite an active person before getting pregnant, but I had all of these fears in my mind that can sometimes spiral. I let that fear eat away at me, so I stopped exercising. I really indulged in that whole eating-for-two mentality. Outside of staying away from the recommended foods to avoid, I didn’t really eat healthy which actually led to quite a bit of weight gain. So aside from that, going back to this whole theme of being very naive because I feel like the topic of pregnancy and preparing for childbirth is not a widely discussed conversation at least in the OB world. I did have an OB and pretty much, I listened to anything and everything that he told me. I really did not know that I had a choice in anything at all or if I had the ability to have questions. I remember being close to full term and being told at one point, “Okay, we’re going to do a sweep today at this appointment.” I had no idea what that was. I actually didn’t even know that I had the option to decline. For other examples, I remember my doctor talking to me about pain management and being told that I needed to get an epidural.  He said that it’s completely unnecessary for women to try to do childbirth without any pain intervention and upon reflection, I was really only educated on the things that the practice I was at wanted me to know or had opinions on, so I really didn’t know that I had alternative choices offered. Meagan: And he wasn’t making it sound like there were any either. Sarah-Ann: No, no. Pretty much was just like, “This is the way it is. This is what you need to do.”Meagan: Yeah. Sarah-Ann: Yeah, and so when I finally did go into labor, they were actually very, very inconsistent and all over the place for over 24 hours. I actually didn’t know what was going on. I was like, “Why isn’t labor picking up? It’s been over 24 hours.” But what I didn’t realize at the time was that this could possibly be a sign of a poorly positioned baby. I also had an anterior placenta. I think it’s important to note that I reclined for most of my pregnancy. For those who follow the Spinning Babies, for example, my belly button was always straight up in the air for most of my pregnancy. Even though I didn’t know it at the time, my baby was actually OP. I think it was sometime around 2 centimeters that I went into the hospital. I was immediately admitted within the hour even though I was still in very, very early labor. In hindsight, I wish I had actually been sent home to continue moving and trying to get labor to pick up a little bit more on its own. They requested the epidural even though I wasn’t really in a whole lot of pain. But again, going back to that conditioning that I had been told by my doctor, “Just get the epidural right away.” So again, I’m only at about 2-3 centimeters. I’ve now had the epidural. I’m completely laid up in bed on my back. Nobody has offered for me to be turned. Nobody has offered me a peanut ball, for example. My doctor comes in around 4 centimeters. He says, “Let’s just get things moving. I’m going to break your water and we’ll get you on Pitocin. Let’s get things moving along.” Baby was completely fine at this point. There were really no contradictions to anything that was happening. It was more or less just him saying, “Let’s pick things up.” I lay in bed for the next five hours. Again, not moving, just completely on my back and unsurprisingly, the doctor came in five hours later, I was still at 4 centimeters and had not progressed at all. He just basically said, “You know what? We need to do a C-section.” Because of the miscarriage that I had gone through and all of the things leading up to that point, I pretty much just agreed. So that was my firstborn. It was a little girl. She came in weighing 7 pounds and 15 ounces. Meagan: Which is a perfect size. Sarah-Ann: Yeah, yeah. I really didn’t have a whole lot of ill feelings towards that labor and delivery. I honestly just thought it was a one-off. Again, not being educated and being very naive, I just figured that was just what happened that time around and the next time would be totally different and I would just have a VBAC. I got pregnant with my second 10 months later, so 10 months after my C-section. My oldest two are about 20 months apart. I was more relaxed this time around, but I still didn’t take the opportunity to educate myself. I did switch providers and go with more of a primary network of care providers here in Edmonton. I had this one doctor. She was my one doctor for all of the prenatal care, but the doctors who delivered the babies were on a rotational basis. There was an opportunity to do a meet and greet, but it was kind of like a you-get-who-you-get when you go into labor kind of thing. And so again, as I was reflecting and going through my notes for this session, it’s funny how some of those red flags actually come up with some of the things that were told to me by my provider. I wanted to share some examples. One of the things that was said to me was, “You know, if you’re feeling really anxious in any way about this delivery because you’ve already had a C-section, you could literally walk into a hospital right now and they have to give you a C-section.” So no talk or encouragement about a VBAC at this point. It was just like, “Go get your C-section.”Another thing that was said was, “Please know if things don’t work out the way that you want them to, you will never again have the opportunity to try for a VBAC.” So again, all of this conditioning was going into my mind. It just adds a lot of pressure, so in my mind at the time, I’m thinking, “Oh my goodness. If I don’t have a VBAC this time around, I’ll never get the opportunity to do it again.”And then the third quote I wanted to share was, I had asked my provider, “Does this impact fertility and future children if I have to have a C-section this time around?” She was like, “No, no, no, no, no. You can have as many C-sections as you want. It doesn’t affect anything in any way. I once saw a woman who had ten C-sections.” She actually said this in a very admirable tone and so it was almost like it was very glamorized. Again, reflecting I’m like, “Why did I not recognize these red flags?”If I’m comparing it to my first as well, I think I had a very similar pregnancy. Again, I did not engage in the healthiest of lifestyles, did not exercise, and didn’t eat properly. I gained a considerable amount of weight, reclined my entire pregnancy, and when I started to get close to term, I started to stress a crazy amount. I stressed and stressed and stressed. I was like, “Why am I not going into labor? I need to go into labor early. This baby is just getting bigger,” and so it just compounded on top of everything else that I was going through from a mental perspective knowing in my mind, thinking at the time, “You’ll never get the chance to do this again if you don’t have your VBAC.” So just very, very stressed. I opted for two or three sweeps a week. I tossed and turned every night just desperately waiting for any sign of labor to come. Labor actually did start on its own eventually. I was about a week past due and it was a very identical pattern to my first. Very inconsistent, irregular contractions all over the place, would not pick up, just stop-start. Again, not realizing at the time that my baby was an OP baby. I did have an anterior placenta this time around as well. I went to the hospital again too early in very, very early labor but because I was a past C-section mom, I was immediately admitted. You start to get those individuals who start to come to talk. They share their views and perceptions on C-sections and VBACs as well. I remember being tracked down in the hall at one point when I was walking through my contractions and the nurse said, “Oh, I just talked to your doctor. She wants to break your water. It’s not going to do anything other than picking things up. What do you say?”I honestly didn’t know at the time that if you break your water too early and baby is in a poor position that this can make them more or less be further stuck, right?Meagan: Right, yeah. Which, in your first birth, I’m like, “Okay, OP baby. 4 centimeters. Water breaks. Baby comes down OP. It’s going to take longer to dilate.”Sarah-Ann: Yeah, exactly. Meagan: Right? Mhmm. Sarah-Ann: Pretty much the exact same thing was happening with this second baby. So now that my water was broken, I needed the epidural because the contractions were so strong. I made it to about 6 centimeters this time around. I was so frozen, though, from the epidural. I couldn’t even wiggle my toes. It was just cranked to the max. Baby went into distress at this point. They called for a second opinion. I was actually very, very devastated at this point around that I knew things were starting to look like a C-section. A seasoned doctor came in and something happened to me that was actually very, very profound and played a very, very large role in my third pregnancy which was my VBAC after 2 C-sections. He did a check on me and he said, “Your baby is sunny-side up and your pelvis is shaped like a V.” He held his index finger and his middle finger up in a V shape. He said, “Baby is not going to come.”I’ll touch on that when I go into my third pregnancy, but just that single moment right there of him telling me that I had this V-shaped pelvis which later on, in my mind, I thought was an Android-shaped pelvis. It really played a large mental game for me. So baby was born. He was born stunned and very unresponsive. It was quite traumatic and I do recall a lot of Code Pink being shouted over and over. It was pretty much a whirlwind of a birth and very, very traumatic. He was my second born, a little boy. He weighed 9 pounds and 5 ounces. He was quite a bit bigger. But in hindsight, nothing that I think I would have had trouble with if the baby had been better positioned.He actually ended up having to be in the NICU for a few days. While he was in the NICU, I was recovering in my room. This one nurse came in and she was so kind. I remember her so vividly in my mind. I actually only ever saw her once. She never came back after that. She said something to me. She said, I was telling her how disappointed and sad I was that I didn’t get my VBAC. She said in the most casual tone ever, “Well, maybe your next one will be your VBAC.” It was so profound for me. I was like, “How could this experienced labor nurse be telling me something that apparently all of these doctors had been telling me that I could never have a VBAC after 2 C-sections?”I was like, “Wait a minute. What are you telling me? This is an actual thing?” This actually opened up a whole new door because, at this point, I was starting to realize in my mind that there was not a consistent form of care or approach to C-sections and VBACs as I had originally thought. I just thought that this was the rule and this was the way it was and that’s the way it had to be. But obviously, it’s not the truth. Meagan: Well, and you are not alone out there. A lot of people do. A lot of people will have conversations with me. I talk about what I do all the time and they will say, “What do you do?” I say that I talk about birth after Cesarean options and they are like, “Well, there aren’t any options so what do you talk about?” And I’m like, “There actually are options.” Then we talk about my story and they are like, “No you didn’t.” Yeah, I did. Sarah-Ann: Yeah, yeah. It’s just crazy. So it was actually as I reflect on everything as a whole, that was a very distinct moment in my memory that really changed the course of things for me for my future pregnancy. So at my 6-week follow-up appointment after having my second C-section, I actually went and saw this doctor who had delivered my son. I asked him about a VBAC the next time around. He was so hesitant. He shook his head. He was so reluctant. He said, “Your baby would need to be less than 7 pounds for you to even be able to do it. No doctor in their right mind will induce you.”So again with the misinformation, right? These doctors had different opinions as far as the way things should be done and how things should be done. They say it to you as a matter of fact as opposed to their opinion. So it really plays on you having to try and decipher what is truth in this, what is maybe not necessarily the truth, but at that point, I had already had a sudden thirst for the truth. I remember going home and putting out this post. In Canada here, we have this Canada-wide baby forum where you can ask all of these anonymous questions for all of these different groups. So in the VBAC group, I had asked this question. I said, “Is this true what this doctor told me?” This one woman responded to me and she was like, “It’s not like they can tie you down to a table and force you to have a C-section.” I was like, “Whoa.” This was just like all of this light opening up in front of me. I was like, “Okay. Things are going to be different the next time around.”I knew going into my third pregnancy because we wanted to have three children, I knew things would be different this time around. I actually got pregnant with my third. My youngest two are exactly two years apart, so when I got pregnant with her, I actually started my preparations well in advance of being pregnant with her because I was very determined to do everything differently from the start. Even before I was pregnant, for that year leading up to me even trying to conceive with my husband, I began preparing my body before I was even pregnant. I brought my BMI down to, I think it was about a 23. I exercised regularly. I enrolled in hot yoga because I wanted to learn how to loosen my body and take a little bit more of a holistic approach to taking care of myself. I actually started going to, this was pre-COVID, we had a VBAC support group here in Edmonton that I had come across, so I started attending some of those meetings before COVID happened. Really, any information that I could find on VBACs after two Cesareans, I literally devoured immediately. I think this was at this point that I came across The VBAC Link which quite honestly changed my life both from an information perspective and also a community perspective because as you know, the community there is huge, huge, huge. Meagan: Yeah. Sarah-Ann: Everyone is so supportive, so it was really quite literally life-changing. Meagan: I know. I love the Facebook community and our little private group. Everyone is so sweet in there. There is so much love. Sarah-Ann: Yes, yeah. Regardless of the outcome, like you said, there is just so much love and support.  Meagan: Mhmm. Sarah-Ann: So yeah. I actually did some research on placentas because I had read that there is an increased chance of OP babies when you have an anterior placenta. It’s funny. I’m by nature a stomach sleeper. I always have been. I have read that when you’re trying to conceive that if you sleep on your back, you have a higher chance of a posterior placenta. I don’t really know if there is any truth to that, but I will say that I changed from being a stomach sleeper to a back sleeper while I was trying to conceive my third baby. Meagan: Interesting. Sarah-Ann: Yes and I ended up having a posterior placenta. Meagan: Really? Oh my goodness. I’m actually a back sleeper too and I always worried about having an anterior placenta. I always ended up having a posterior placenta, but wow. Sarah-Ann: Yeah. I can’t even remember where I came across that information, but I told my midwife that too and she had the same reaction. She’s like, “That makes sense.” I was like, “Yeah.” Meagan: Yeah, gravity. Sarah-Ann: Exactly, just the natural law of gravity. Meagan: Interesting, okay. Sarah-Ann: Yeah. Some of the other things I did, I had seen I think it was Julie who did a 5-minute fear release video on YouTube. Meagan: Oh yes, she did. Sarah-Ann: Yep, yep. I started to recognize the importance of not only physical preparation like healing my body but also the mental component as well. So healing your mind for it, working through all of those fears, working through the trauma. I saw a birth trauma therapist to work through some of the trauma from my second birth. I wanted to touch on this as well. I did this emotion code therapy as well. I’m not sure how many people are too familiar with it. It’s kind of like a form of Reiki but basically, it was developed by this chiropractor actually. Basically, what it is, it works on releasing trapped emotional energy in certain parts of your body to try and release the negative energy that is being housed there from past trauma. Meagan: Love that. Sarah-Ann: Yeah. I guess it’s a profound thing that happened to me during one of the sessions. I was working with this woman and we were going through the session. She was working on releasing this energy with me. I had never told her ever, never discussed really with anyone that I had a miscarriage. While she was working on my pelvis, she stopped so suddenly and looked at me. She said, “I’m so sorry to ask this, but have you ever had a miscarriage before?” I was so taken aback. I was like, “Um, yes I have.” I was really caught off guard. She said, “I’m so sorry to be abrasive and ask this question so frank to you, but your baby just told me that it was the baby from the miscarriage and that it’s come back to you.” And she started crying. Meagan: Whoa. Sarah-Ann: Even I get choked up thinking about it. Obviously, tears were flowing down my face. For those who are active in the spiritual community or have the belief in a higher faith or a higher belief and have that faith, this was really profound for me. It was really a full-circle experience that I was going through. I did want to mention that as well because it was something that was really special that I experienced during the pregnancy. Meagan: That’s pretty unique too. It’s a unique thing to hear and be told and to have her feel that. That’s pretty cool.  Sarah-Ann: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and to hear her cry. To see the emotion, because I feel like people can just say that here and there, but just to see the emotion in her face and to see the overwhelm that she was going through, I was like, “Wow. This is intense.” But yeah, so it was pretty profound. And then just some of the other things that I did differently this time around, when I did eventually find out I was pregnant, I was like, “Okay.” I applied for a midwife. I hired a doula. I enrolled in Hypnobabies classes. There were so many things that I did differently this time around. I was very, very active. I did cardio 4-5 times a week. I saw a chiropractor. I saw an acupuncturist. I really just did everything that I thought was within my power to do. I worked on food. I saw a dietician to help me make healthier food choices and I found Spinning Babies, for example, and did forward leaning inversions for 45 seconds every day. And then just really worked on all of those different pain management techniques with my doula. I really felt that I had done as much as I possibly could within my power to prepare for this labor regardless of what the outcome was. So for me, in those final weeks, the biggest thing for me was that mental game, just accepting that whatever was meant to be will be, that it’s going to be okay either way, just trying to relax and work on that mental component, and not stressing. I guess in my final week leading up to the delivery, I really was relaxed. I pampered myself. I stopped working out. I really just wanted to breathe and make sure I was having a very positive experience. I also never had a single sweep the entire pregnancy nor did I have a check. My midwife was completely fine with that. She was like, “Literally, your cervix isn’t going to tell me anything until you are in labor. I’m totally on board with you.” Meagan: I love that personally because it really doesn’t. It doesn’t tell us anything. Even in early labor, when we’re in early labor, it’s not telling us much besides the fact that we’re in early labor, right? Sarah-Ann: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I really didn’t actually have my first check until I was in the hospital with her because our midwives here have hospital access. I’m not sure if it’s like that everywhere. I went into labor with my third baby on Canadian Thanksgiving, Sunday morning. It was such a beautiful experience. I woke up. I was calm. My husband was calm. We just relaxed the whole day. At about 8:00-9:00 at night was when things really started to hit me hard and fast. This was again, a very new experience to me because as I mentioned in my first two labors, it was that stop-start. I couldn’t figure out what was going on. There was no rhyme or reason to the labor pattern, but once I hit a more active stage, it was like, “Wow. This is super, super intense.”They were coming at me very consistently. I think I threw up a couple of times, but my doula assured me that it was totally normal. She seemed totally okay with it even though I was like, “Oh my gosh. I can’t believe that I’m throwing up in front of her.” Meagan: Listen. Burps, toots, and pukes. Burps, toots, and pukes. Those things are good signs. That’s what I always tell my clients. When they’re like, “I’m so sorry I’m burping.” I’m like, “This is a good thing. Baby is moving down. Air is moving.” Sarah-Ann: Yep, exactly. A new experience for me, but like I said, she was totally cool with it. But the intensity did overwhelm me. Contrary to what some others feel, I actually felt a lot safer being in the hospital. I never really felt like it was an unsafe space for me. Because our midwives have hospital access, we just get our room, and then, for the most part, we’re supposed to be left alone. Now, because I was going for a VBAC after two Cesareans, there were some doctors at the hospital who were a little uptight about what was happening. I remember my midwife saying to me that she got cornered in the hallway being like, “Why are you doing this?” But she was like, “Listen. We’re doing this.” During my first check after I got into the hospital, my midwife was like, “You know what? Let’s just do a check so we have a baseline.” So this was my first time. My doula was like, “Whatever it is, don’t worry. It’s just a baseline.” I was 2 centimeters and I will have to admit that I was very surprised that I was only 2 centimeters after the intensity of what I was experiencing because again, it was so new to me. But again, it really didn’t mean anything at that point. I labored on the toilet and in the shower. I did some hypnosis and I had a bit of help from some morphine. At one point, one of the doctors came in. He was quite rude. He had said that he had looked up all of my last reports and one of the reports had shown that I had a T-incision for my last C-section. Meagan: Oh really?Sarah-Ann: Yeah. This was complete news to me and complete news to my midwife because she had obviously gone through all of my histories so I had no idea where this came from. I had never heard it in any of my past reports or follow-up appointments. It was literally the first time I had ever heard it. So he had said that it actually increases the risk by 5% or more. I don’t know the stats. I don’t know if that’s true, but that’s just what he said to me. He was quite aggressive about it. I literally looked him in the eye. I said, “Unless I or my baby are in danger, I’m not consenting to anything.” I actually didn’t see him again after that, so I think he just wanted to come in and make his point, then he left after that. Meagan: Interesting. Have you since gone back and looked through any of your op reports to see if you do, in fact, have a special scar? Sarah-Ann: No, I should though. The way he positioned it was that during the second C-section, there was a tear while they were doing it and I think that’s what led to the T-incision, but I’m not quite sure. Meagan: So you had a vaginal birth after two C-sections with a special scar potentially. Sarah-Ann: Yes, yes. Meagan: Wow, okay. Well, that just adds a little spin to your story. Sarah-Ann: Yeah. Meagan: All right, keep going. I’m excited. Keep going. He leaves the room. He leaves the room. Sarah-Ann: He leaves the room and doesn’t come back. I’m quite glad that he doesn’t come back because he brought negative energy to the room. Quite frankly, I think that he wanted to come in and assert his authority or whatever they want to do at that point. Everything was fine. Baby was doing beautifully. I was totally good. Like I was saying, I was laboring in the bathroom. I lost my mucous plug. I think it was about 9:30 in the morning at this point. I was about 4 centimeters dilated. Contractions were still coming very consistently on their own. It was about 11:00 and I finally, I didn’t want to but I felt that at this point, I had been laboring for over 24 hours and I wanted the epidural. My doula and my husband were like, “Wait a second. Are you sure? You’ve literally spent the last 9 months telling us that you would be super upset if you get the epidural.” I was like, “No. I’ve made peace with whatever will happen. I definitely want the epidural.”And so while I was waiting for that, my water actually broke naturally and on its own. Meagan: Okay. Sarah-Ann: Yeah, so things were still progressing very, very nicely. I got the epidural and I don’t know if the stars were just aligned for me at this point, but the epidural took effect just enough to take the edge off. I still had quite a bit of pain, but it was manageable and it was almost like a walking epidural. Even though my midwife was saying that there is no such thing because I had asked her about it, I could fully move. I could move my legs. I was changing positions on my own. I was on all fours at one point. I didn’t actually try to walk. I’m sure I could have if I wanted to though. But like I said, it just took the edge off, so it wasn’t a full-blast epidural. I think that really helped me with all of the position changes. Meagan: Right. Right. I think with the walking epidural thing, it’s that they don’t really exist meaning that you can’t really get up and walk the halls, but you can move your body. You can even have an assisted squat and things like that. I feel like they need to change it from a walking epidural to a light epidural. Sarah-Ann: Yes. Yes, exactly. Meagan: Or minimal. I don’t even know. Or half epidural. You know, something because people think they can get up and walk around and usually they can’t. Sarah-Ann: No, yeah. But quite a bit of difference like I was saying. Meagan: Oh yeah. Sarah-Ann: Like I was saying with my second, I was so frozen. I couldn’t even move my toes to just being fully mobile. Meagan: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah.Sarah-Ann: Yeah, so very, very helpful in that sense. And again, how come– I guess these are all of my questions. Why doesn’t anybody ask you, “Do you want the full blast epidural or do you want just a little bit?” Nobody talks about this and nobody asks you. Meagan: Right. I know. Sarah-Ann: I wish that they did. But yeah, so I think that it was around 3:00 in the afternoon. I was around 6 centimeters. The head was coming down nicely. Baby was managing well. We were rotating positions every 30 minutes. I was using the peanut ball. About two and a half hours later, I was 7 centimeters. There was another midwife that came in to relieve my current midwife but they all were within the same practice, so they were very, very supportive. At this point, because I had been in labor for quite some time, I actually started to get a little bit of a fever. It’s funny. This doctor came in to prescribe the antibiotics that were recommended by my midwives, they were preparing me. They were like, “Okay. He’s going to come in. He has a history of telling women who are trying for VBACs that their babies are going to die and that they’re going to die. So whatever he tells you, just ignore him and tell him that you want the antibiotics.” I was like, “Okay. I’m ready for whatever he tells me.” He comes in. He’s like, “Yeah, let’s just do some antibiotics. Sounds good,” and just walks out. The midwives look at each other in disbelief like, “I can’t believe this just happened.” They were like, “This doctor does not do this.” They were like, “Who is this guy?” So that did help me a bit out with the fever, but again, we were starting to get around the 7:00 timeframe. Baby’s heart rate baseline is now 155, but contractions are every two minutes. Now I’m about an 8, stretched to a 9 as far as progress goes. Baby was actually starting to move down nicely. I think it was at this point where I was like, “Oh my gosh. Is this really going to happen? I think this is going to happen.” I was in disbelief because it’s kind of like one of those moments that you have dreamt about for so long and it’s starting to come to fruition. You’re like, “Wow. This is going to happen for me.” The midwife did the check and I was almost fully dilated. There was a little bit of a lip present. She was like, “I think you’re going to do it.” I had goosebumps at that moment. I was like, “Oh my gosh. My midwife thinks that I’m going to do it.” So that was a pretty impactful thing for her to say to me. I think right before I started pushing, one other thing that happened was that I said to her, I’m like, “Do I have an Android pelvis?” Again, that fear came back into my mind coming back from that second birth that I had where he said that I have a small pelvis and that I would never do it with a baby that is bigger than 7 pounds. She shook her head so aggressively. She was like, “Your pelvis is fine. You are going to birth this baby no problem.” After that, it was go-time. I started pushing. I pushed for about an hour. Baby was born via forceps, but it was only because she had that elevated heart rate. Meagan: It was more of a time thing. Sarah-Ann: It was more of a time thing, yeah. My midwife was like, “I literally had no doubt in my mind that she would have come naturally on her own,” but we thought it was best to get her out at that point. So yeah, and then they put her on my chest and she was a surprise baby. She was a girl. There were lots of tears. Everybody was cheering because I had this big birth team that had been working with me for so long. Even my midwife, I was her first VBAC after two Cesareans. It was a very, very, very special moment. Meagan: That’s amazing. Sarah-Ann: Yeah. Meagan: Congratulations. Sarah-Ann: Thank you. Meagan: So happy for you. I love it when she was like, “Your pelvis is fine.”Sarah-Ann: She was like, “There’s nothing wrong with it.” Meagan: Oh man, that should be one of our next shirts. We sometimes will make– well, Julie would totally do it. She would make bonfire shirts based on quotes said in the podcast. “Your pelvis is fine.”Sarah-Ann: Yeah, exactly. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Well, huge congrats. That’s so amazing, so amazing. And look at that, your pelvis was fine and your body could do it. Sarah-Ann: I should note that she was 8 pounds. She was over the 7-pound mark. Meagan: Bigger, yep. Because 7,15 was your first? Sarah-Ann: Yep: Meagan: And then what was your second again? Sarah-Ann: 9,5. 9,5. Meagan: 9,5. Sarah-Ann: Yep. Meagan: But it was OP. Sarah-Ann: Yep. Yeah. Meagan: Oh, that’s so amazing. That’s so amazing. Well, yeah. I’d love to talk about-- so we hate this word. We hate the word “failure”. It’s really poor. When we say it, we’re referring to it in the way that medical professionals use it as a “failure to progress”. Now, my little tidbit on this. If you see “failure”, try your hardest to know that you are not a failure if you don’t give birth vaginally. You’re not a failure if you decide to get an epidural. There is no failing in birth. You are birthing a human being. That is pretty stinking incredible. It doesn’t really matter how you do it. It’s remarkable. It’s amazing. It’s so many words. You guys are amazing. You are full of strength. Do we talk about a failure to progress or is it a failure to wait? We believe that a lot of times, it’s a failure to wait. There’s an ACOG study that shows that before, they would deem “failure to progress” more at that 4-centimeter stage, which is kind of where you mentioned with your births where you got to 4 centimeters, they broke your water which, I will touch on the way he said that then they would wait for 4 hours and it’s done. Now, active labor isn’t really accurately considered super active until 6 centimeters. So even at 4 centimeters, we shouldn’t be deemed or given the term failure to progress. I was also given the term “failure to progress” and I was at 3 centimeters. Sarah-Ann: Yeah. Meagan: Yeah, and there’s no cervical change meaning no effacement, no station change, nothing happening, and that’s within a long time. So we have a blog about “Is it Failure to Progress or Failure to Wait?” and the things that may lead to failure to progress. One of them is breaking water prematurely. For my doula clients, they will always say, “Should I break my water?” That’s a hard question because sometimes breaking your water can totally do the trick and get your baby here pretty quickly and smoothly and it’s beautiful. Sometimes, it doesn’t. It brings baby down. Baby’s in a poor position. They start having heart rate issues and it’s just a downward spiral from there. But breaking your water prematurely and the way your provider did it was like, “Hey, I’m here. We’re going to get things going and I’m going to break your water.” I wanted to note to all of our listeners that a lot of providers do that. I don’t think it’s because they necessarily have any ill intent to say, “I’m doing this. You have no choice.” But the way they say it sometimes makes people feel like they have no choice. A lot of the time we go along with it kind of like you did. My water had already broken, but now I was just like, “Okay, they are telling me what they are going to do and they are just doing it.” I didn’t really play a part in my birth in that way. Know it’s okay to say, “Hold on. I’m not ready to break my water yet. Let’s talk about it. Let’s look at the factors.” I always tell my clients that with breaking your water, if it doesn’t happen spontaneously or naturally and they are wanting to do it artificially, it’s kind of a wildcard. We have to look at a lot of things like how high is baby? What is my baby’s position? Do we know? How is my labor pattern? Is it strong and effective or is it early on and is that why we are breaking my water is to get things to try and go? There are so many little factors so definitely check out the blog. We will make sure it’s in the show notes and then we will also include in the show notes the video that Sarah-Ann talked about that Julie did about the fear release because it’s amazing. And then, yeah. Anything else that you would like to say about misconceptions and the whole shebang? Sarah-Ann: I think the best recommendation I could give is just to really, truly believe in yourself and just surround yourself with people who believe in you because that makes such a huge difference. I hear so many and read so many stories on The VBAC Link Community of people who don’t have their group who are supportive and that’s probably why they are at the Facebook group for that support, but it makes such a huge difference. I was very, very assertive with people in my circle saying, “If you have any sort of negative thoughts or opinions, I don’t want to hear them. I mean this in the nicest way possible, but you will not see me until after I have this baby if that is the case.” Meagan: Mhmm, mhmm. Sarah-Ann: So having that group is really, really important. Meagan: It really is. We did that. I can’t remember what they call it, a mother’s blessing, but we did a little circle thing and we all did this yarn thing. It was really cool and we connected. So each time, we would wrap a piece of yarn around our circle. It was based on a positive affirmation and that piece of yarn was a strong affirmation. It stuck with me and I wore it all through labor and my birth. I just think it’s so important to have those people who weren’t all with me physically, but every time I looked down, I remembered my circle. I remembered their words. It touched me, made me stronger, and it encouraged me to keep going. So get your circle and hold onto them tight. Don’t be scared to tell people that you love them and you are grateful for them, but they are not invited into your circle. It’s okay to not have people in your circle. My mom wasn’t initially one of the people in my circle. She wasn’t super supportive. She didn’t really understand why I wanted to have a vaginal birth. She thought it was scary. She didn’t know some of the risks. All of these things. She told me that I was crazy. Lots of things, right? It was really hard for me not to have my mom in my circle, but at the same time, that’s what I needed at the time to keep my circle positive. So yeah. I would definitely, definitely agree with that. Okay. Well, thank you so much again for being with us today. Sarah-Ann: Thank you. Yeah. I so appreciate it. I so enjoyed it, so thank you so much for the opportunity. Meagan: Absolutely.  ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 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“It was the most amazing moment of my life. I still get emotional just thinking about that feeling of pushing that baby out of me and being able to have that immediate skin-to-skin that I had wanted so badly and wasn’t able to have with my daughter. I had waited and waited so long to be able to have a brand new, fresh baby boy on my chest.”Kayana is a strong powerhouse with such a sweet, beautiful heart. Her stories are filled with so many wild twists and turns including infertility, IVF, premature birth at 31 weeks, NICU time, a miscarriage, a cerclage, progesterone shots, being abandoned by a doula, a low and slow Pitocin induction, scary postpartum hemorrhaging, and the blissful, magical VBAC moment she was dreaming of.  We know you will learn so much from Kayana’s many experiences and leave feeling inspired by her strength and positivity!Additional linksThe VBAC Link Blog: VBAC After Preterm C-sectionFind a VBAC Link DoulaHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Happy Wednesday, everybody. It is Meagan with The VBAC Link and we have another VBAC story for you today. Our storyteller today is on a road trip, so we are going to have maybe some kiddos along the way, maybe my dogs. My dog likes to bark too, so it’s going to be a fun one. We are going to bring everyone along with this birth story today.We are going to be talking about a lot, you guys. She has so many things that really are relevant in her story. She has infertility, IVF, premature birth, miscarriage, cerclage, was actually abandoned by a doula so we are going to talk about that, induction, and postpartum hemorrhage. It’s heavy. We’ve got a lot of yummy things to go into, so I won’t take up too much time so we can definitely get into her story, but I want to do a Review of the Week and then we’ll jump right in. Review of the WeekMeagan: Today’s review is from Amylynn Seider. Amylynn, I typed it wrong. Amylynn Seider and this is on Apple Podcasts. She says, “I really can’t express how informative and empowering this podcast has been for me following my traumatic birth in 2019. In the 16 weeks I’ve been pregnant and a listener, I feel deeply strengthened by the stories of women from across the globe and more informed thanks to the education provided by Meagan and Julie. I look forward to my VBAC in October knowing that I will be fueled by the women in this community. So very grateful.”That was in April, so she’s coming right up on this VBAC. It’s August right now during this time that we are recording, so this is going to be fun. So Amylynn, if you wouldn’t mind, write us and tell us how things went. Kayana’s storyMeagan: Okay, are you excited? I am so excited. So okay, is it Kayana? Is that how you say your name?Kayana: It’s Kay-anna.Meagan: Kay-anna, okay. Kayana: Yes. It’s a hard one.Meagan: I’ve been calling you Kay-ahna in my mind.Kayana: No, you’re good. It’s a hard one. Even my husband said it wrong for the first three or four months of dating, so don’t feel bad. Meagan: Okay, and she’s in Idaho, so we are excited to hear about her journey with her two babies. If you haven’t seen her image, it’s on Instagram and Facebook. You guys, this family is beautiful so go give her a shout of love today on the post or go find it. But okay, we’ll turn the time over to you to share whatever you feel is going to be wonderful for these listeners. Kayana: Okay, so I guess we’ll just start from the beginning. Before we ever got pregnant with our little girl who is our first, we struggled with infertility for about four years. We don't really know the cause of it. I have been diagnosed with PCOS and so the doctors have said that that’s the reason for infertility, but there were years within that trying phase where I was on different medications and things to induce ovulation. That ovulation was confirmed. That was for months and months at a time and I still didn’t get pregnant. I don’t know if there’s maybe more to it than just the PCOS or what. We don’t really know. It’s kind of a question mark up in the air. Meagan: Yeah. That’s the hardest thing when it’s a mystery like that.Kayana: Yeah, it is because it’s just frustrating. Infertility is so hard. It’s excruciating, but yeah. We struggled for about four years with that. We tried, like I said, a bunch of rounds of medication. We tried, oh gosh, I think we did four or five IUIs, and eventually, we moved on and went ahead with IVF. We did an IVF round and we were so, so blessed that it worked on the first try, which, I know not everyone has that situation and I feel for that. It’s so hard. We were able to have it work the first time and we got pregnant with our sweet little baby girl. The pregnancy with her went pretty smoothly. I was very, very, very sick, like, throwing up 15 times a day every day. Meagan: Oh. Kayana: Yeah. Meagan: That does not sound pleasant. Kayana: No, it was awful. From week 5 until probably week 28, it was just never-ending. But other than that, it was a pretty uneventful pregnancy. She was due in August of 2018. The doctor I was seeing with her at the beginning of my pregnancy, we love him so much. He’s here in Idaho and he was with us through all of our infertility stuff. He helped us through a lot of that. He did some of our IUIs and stuff. He obviously had to hand me off to an infertility doctor for IVF, but he was with us through everything before that. He actually, he and his wife experienced infertility as well. So he kind of–Meagan: Connected. Kayana: –just really was there for us and understood a lot of it. Yeah, and so when we went to him for our first pregnancy appointment after doing IVF, he just sat in the room and cried with us. He just, it was just so sweet. We just love him to pieces. We planned on him being our doctor through delivery with our baby girl, but plans changed. Out of nowhere, around 27 weeks– I think I was 27 weeks– we ended up moving out of state super last minute. It was very unexpected. We ended up leaving Idaho and moving to Washington. Obviously, I was devastated to leave my doctor who I loved so much. We moved up to Washington and we were in a frazzle trying to find a new doctor and things because I was 27 weeks. I was getting further along and needed more appointments at that point, but we didn’t know anything would go wrong yet. We got up there and I had one appointment with a doctor up there who we found. It was one of those clinics where they just cycle you through all the doctors and have you see everybody throughout your pregnancy. They had nine different doctors there at that clinic. I saw one, just whatever one they placed me with. I had one appointment with that doctor and then a couple of weeks later, I went into labor at 31 weeks. Yeah. Out of nowhere, totally unexpectedly, I went into labor at 31 weeks. I want to say a Saturday is where I really started feeling some contractions that were stopping me in my tracks a little bit. I feel a little silly now looking back because I didn’t really realize that that’s what it was. I was only 31 weeks, so it’s not like I was expecting to go into labor. I had heard from so many people, “Oh yeah, you start to get contractions here and there towards the end of your pregnancy and some cramping is normal.” You hear all sorts of things, so when I started having what I thought were just cramps, I didn’t think much of it. So that was Saturday. That continued Sunday and by Monday, it had gotten pretty dang intense. They started to get closer together and more intense. My husband and I started to think, “Okay. This is not right. I don’t think this is a normal thing to be happening at 31 weeks.” We started timing it. We realized just how close together they were and started to panic a little bit. We looked at each other and said, “Okay, we need to go to the hospital.” I stood up to go get my shoes on and I went to the bathroom before we left, sat on the toilet, and just gushed blood everywhere. Just so much blood. Our hearts dropped. We were freaked out. We’re like, “What is going on?”My husband picked me up, carried me out to his truck, threw me in, and I don’t think he’s ever driven so fast in his entire life. I’m pretty sure he was going 90 mph through 35 mph speed zones. He was booking it to the hospital. We lived about 15 minutes away from the hospital. At one point actually, while we were on the freeway, a police officer ended up behind us while he was speeding so fast and followed us until he saw us turn into the hospital. He kind of backed off and left us alone. I’m sure he realized what was going on. Meagan: What was going on, yeah? Kayana: So that was kind of funny. Yeah, seriously, so he didn’t pull us over. That was Monday. We got to the hospital and sure enough, I was in full-on labor. I was between a 4 and a 5 dilated when we got there. They were able to stop the labor with medications, but they did say that “Because of how dilated you are, you are not leaving this hospital until the baby is here.” Of course, I’m all geared up. I’m like, “Okay. I’m going to lay in this hospital bed for another 9 weeks until my due date. That’s totally fine. I’m ready for anything. We’re going to keep this baby in. We’ll just watch shows. This is totally fine. It’s going to be fine.”That was my mindset. I’m like, “We’ll just keep this baby in. We’ve got this.” So that was Monday. Tuesday and Wednesday passed. We were just hanging out at the hospital. My in-laws had flown in to come to see us. We’re really close with my in-laws, so they flew in to see us and spend time with us in the hospital. It was all good and then Thursday came along and they said, “Okay, one of these medications that you’re on,” I can’t remember what it was, but they said that there was one of them that you can’t be on for long periods of time without a break. They said that you could only do it for about two days at a time, then your body needs a break from it. So they were like, “We’re going to take you off of this and you’re just going to stay in this bed. We’re going to hope for the best. I think you’re going to be fine still, so we’re going to take you off and just see what happens.” I’m like, “Okay. Sounds good.” So that was Thursday mid-morningish. My husband and my father-in-law left to go get some lunch. My husband had not left my side for two and a half days and he was like, “I need to get out. Let’s go get some lunch.”So they left. My mother-in-law and my sister-in-law stayed there with me. She was only like, how old was my sister-in-law at the time? She’s 16 now. My girl is 4. So she was probably 12. Am I doing that math right? Yeah, 12. Anyway, so they were there with me and after they took me off the medication, my contractions got really strong and really close again really fast. I called my husband and I said, “Hey, I don’t know what’s going on, but you might want to get back here. I’m not sure what’s happening.” I told my nurse a couple of different times, “Hey, things are getting more intense. It’s getting close together. Can you go get the doctor and have him check me?” She kept saying, “Oh no, you’re fine. You’re not going to progress as fast after being on all of those meds for a couple of days. It’s fine. It’s fine. It’s fine.” Well, I knew it wasn’t fine. Finally, I got pushy enough and said, “Please go get the doctor.” So finally, she went and got the doctor. He came in and mind you, I didn’t have any pain medication or anything at this point because we didn’t know what was going on. Meagan: Right, right. Kayana: So I’m just laboring through all of this unmedicated. He comes in and he checks me. He says, “Oh my gosh. You’re at a 9. I see your baby’s bum.” Meagan: Oh, oh. Kayana: She was bum down. She was bum down, so he said, “You’re at a 9. I see your baby’s bum. This baby’s coming.” He looked at the nurse and said, “Prepare the OR now.” It felt like seconds. Everybody ran in and I got whisked away to the OR. Luckily, my husband was back by then. They brought me in there and as they were wheeling me to the OR, I got hit with the biggest panic attack. That was my first time ever experiencing something like that. I don’t think that I have, I don’t know, diagnosed anxiety. I’ve never had a panic attack before. I’ve never had one since, but something about the way it was all going down and the way it was happening so quickly, and I was in pain from laboring, just everything all together was the perfect storm and I had a panic attack. I could not breathe. I thought I was suffocating. I thought that the world was just crashing down on me. I just, yeah. It was bad. I couldn’t breathe. They got me into the OR and they put me on the table to try to get the spinal block in for my C-section. I could not get in the correct position for that spinal block because of course like I said, I’m laboring through these contractions.Meagan: 9 centimeters. Kayana: At a 9 and trying to get in this very, very specific crouched position all while literally feeling like I could not breathe. Nothing I was doing– I couldn’t breathe. I couldn’t get air, so I just couldn’t get in the position. Obviously, it was a pretty intense situation. Everybody in the room was feeling it. The anesthesiologist was yelling at me, “I need you to do this! I need you to do this! Come on!” trying to show me, and I couldn’t do it. All of a sudden, this nurse walks over to me, and still to this day, I think she is one of my angels. She was so sweet. I’m sure that she will never hear this. I don’t know if she listens to this podcast, but Sheena, shout out to Sheena if you ever hear this. You are my angel. She came right up to me. She put her hands on my shoulders. She put her forehead to mine and looked me in the eyes. She said, “Just breathe with me. We’re just going to sit here and we’re going to breathe. I’m going to help you through this.” We just stared into each other’s eyes. She helped me get some deep breaths. She helped me calm down. She helped me stop shaking and they were able to get the spinal block in me. There were so many tender mercies and miracles along the way, but that was definitely one of them. They got that spinal block in and literally what felt, I’m sure was more than ten seconds, but what felt like ten seconds later, I heard my baby girl crying and she was here. She did well. She actually scored very well on the, is it called APGAR?Meagan: Mhmm, APGAR, mhmm. Kayana: Yeah, so she actually scored pretty well on that especially for being 9 weeks early, but obviously, they still had to whisk her away to the NICU. There was a whole team in the room just for her and a whole team in the room for me. They pulled her out of me and brought her around to my head. I didn’t get to hold her, didn’t get to touch her. All I got was to see her. I got one quick, little glance. They said, “Here’s your baby,” and they took her away. Meagan: They just didn’t say anything about anything or they just took her?Kayana: No, I knew nothing.Meagan: That’s so hard. Kayana: They took her. They whisked her off to the NICU. That was absolutely excruciating. To not know after all of that I mean, I heard her cry. Meagan: I’m assuming because she was early. Kayana: Yes, yes. So I knew she was at least alive at that point, but I didn’t know if she would be breathing because preemies lungs aren’t great. I didn’t know anything. I had told my husband before any of this happened, I said, “No matter what happens with me, I want you to go with the baby. You go. You go be in the NICU. You go be with her. Make sure she’s okay and I’ll be fine.” He listened to me. He respected that and he went with her to the NICU. So I knew that she would be watched over and taken care of by him at least, but it was so hard not to be able to, you know, I wanted that skin-to-skin and after trying so hard for so long to get her, she was finally here, but she wasn’t here with me. That was really, really hard to swallow. They finished with my C-section, took me to recovery, and if I remember correctly, it wasn’t until that next day that they allowed me to go into the NICU and go see her. So that was really, really hard. I had talked to my husband since. I had talked to him throughout the night and stuff. He was back and forth between my room and the NICU checking in on both of us, so he was giving me updates. I at least knew everything was okay, but it was so hard not to be able to actually go in, see her, and be with her until that next day. So yeah. That was it with my C-section story. She ended up being in the NICU for 5 weeks which was actually amazing because they told us to plan on her being there at least until her due date if not longer. That would have been 9 weeks or longer and she was only there for 5 weeks. That was such a miracle. She progressed really well and she did great in the NICU. She was able to go home about a month before her due date, so it was kind of special. I just got her for a little longer than I would have otherwise, so that was great. Meagan: Yeah. It’s just a journey. It’s a long time hanging out in the hospital doing all of those things, and then boom. It’s crazy that they didn’t know baby was breech before too. Kayana: Well, I think they did. I think they did because they had done an ultrasound and stuff when I had come in. They did know that she was breech, but I think it just all happened so fast and everything was crazy. Meagan: Gotcha, gotcha. Kayana: If I remember correctly, and obviously it’s all a blur especially now that it’s been a while, but I feel like I remember them trying to flip her and stuff too for those couple of days while I was in there. They did, what is that called where they use their hands? Meagan: Oh, maybe I missed that. Okay.Kayana: But it didn’t work. She was still bum down. Meagan: Still bum down, yeah. Kayana: Yep, yep. So anyway. Yeah, that was kind of the reasoning for the C-section. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah.Kayana: I didn’t really know at that point. I was just along for the ride. I wasn’t as educated in birth or different things, so I didn’t really do much to, “Oh, maybe we could try Spinning Babies,” or all of the things that I know now from listening to your podcast, thank you very much. But yeah, so I kind of just went with it. I was like, “Okay, it’s a C-section. I guess there’s nothing we can do.”Meagan: Yeah, mhmm. Kayana: Just naive. So then when my daughter was 18 months old, we ended up moving back to Idaho, woot woot! So happy. We love our Idaho. Meagan: And your supportive provider that you loved. Kayana: Yes, exactly. I was back to that doctor and right after she turned 2, we decided to try again with IVF. That summer, the summer she turned 2, we did IVF again. We got pregnant with that and ended up miscarrying with that baby which was super, super hard. Miscarriage is its own– it’s super hard. Such a difficult thing to go through. We’re very religious so that obviously helped to know and have the testimonies that we do about families, but it’s still hard. It’s hard regardless and especially, too, after going through IVF to get that baby and spending all of that money, all of that energy, all of that physical strain that that is, and then to have that literally just go down the toilet very literally, that was really hard. So after that happened, we planned on waiting a little while and taking a break just for the financial strain as well as the emotion. I felt like I needed to heal emotionally, heal physically, and give my body some time before going through the whole process of IVF again because it’s a lot to go through. We felt like we wanted to wait a little bit. We felt very strongly one day that we needed to just go for it again, not wait, and just dive right back into another round of IVF. We figured out how to make it work financially. We pulled up our boots and just went for it again. We ended up transferring another embryo in very, very early November of 2020. Yeah, November 2020. It was Election Day. Meagan: I was going to say, right before the craziness started happening or I guess at the end. It was already crazy and then it was getting really crazy. Kayana: Yeah, exactly. It was November 3rd, 2020 when we transferred our sweet little baby boy. That obviously resulted in a pregnancy and would result in our sweet baby boy that just turned one. So with this pregnancy, we decided to take some precautions due to my history of preterm birth. We were back to my doctor in Idaho which we were so happy about because we just love him. He was supportive of a VBAC from the very beginning. Actually, I think before we even did IVF again and got pregnant, we had talked to him. I had asked him, “Hey, can I have a vaginal birth after this happened?” He said, “Absolutely.” He was confident in my ability to do it. He was confident in his ability to help. He said, “If that’s what you want and if that’s what you feel like you can do and you want to do, then let’s do it. What’s stopping us?” He’s like, “We’ll watch things carefully. We’ll make sure you’re safe and that the baby’s safe. Obviously, if things don’t go as planned, we can reevaluate and be open-minded.” But he was like, “Let’s go for it. Why not?”Meagan: I love that. Kayana: And I love him. I love him for that. He’s just the best. We love him so much. So yeah. He was supportive of it from the beginning. Meagan: Do you feel like you could share his name?Kayana: Yeah, sure. He’s in Idaho Falls. His name is Dr. Leavitt, Dr. Glenn Leavitt at Leavitt Women’s Healthcare. He has other providers at his clinic and all of the ones I have seen are all really, really good but I obviously have a special place in my heart for him. Meagan: Awesome. I’ll nail him down. Kayana: Yeah, he’s really good. He has midwives there as well. They were always very kind and very supportive as well. So yeah, he’s great. He’s in Idaho Falls and he’s a little bit of a drive for us. We had to drive about 40 minutes for each appointment with him, but it was so worth it to us. So yes. We decided to do some precautions. Since we didn’t really know what had caused the preterm labor with my daughter, we didn’t know if it was an incompetent cervix or if it was just random labor. We didn’t know what it was, so we decided to do a cerclage as well as progesterone shots just to cover all of our bases and that’s what my doctor felt good about as well. At 14 weeks, I went in for a cerclage and that went really smoothly, no complaints there. I don’t feel like it was even any sort of recovery. He told me that it would probably be a couple of days that I would be down and need to rest, but I felt great. I don’t know. I know that’s probably not everyone’s experience, but the cerclage was very uneventful for me. Meagan: That’s awesome. Kayana: Yeah, it was good. But then at 20 weeks, I started having very strong contractions that were consistent and did not feel right. I ended up zooming down to his office that day. We had originally planned to start the progesterone shots around 28 weeks, but because I was having contractions at 20 which obviously is not good at all, he had me start the progesterone shots at that point. So I started them at 20 weeks. That was just weekly. Just once a week, which is not too bad honestly. You have to do progesterone and stuff up until about 12 weeks with IVF, so I got a little break for a little while before I started again at 20 weeks so that was great. The IVF ones are daily, so once a week was not bad at all. It was just in my back right on the back of my love handle above my hip. We started that. Everything else was pretty uneventful. I stayed on the shots and things went well. I hit 35 weeks and the cerclage came out and the shots stopped at that point. We had no idea what was going to happen after that. Obviously, since I had gone into labor so early before, we didn’t know if we should expect that I would go into labor that day that the cerclage came out if it would be another 5 weeks, or another however long. We just didn’t know. But I did know that I wanted an unmedicated VBAC with no interventions. That’s what I wanted. I wanted to go into labor on my own with no interventions, unmedicated, and push that baby out of my vagina. That’s what I wanted. We just played the waiting game at that point. I had gotten my heart set on maybe having baby at 37 or 36 weeks just because I had the girl so early. Meagan: Right. Kayana: But it didn’t happen and it didn’t happen. I went in for my appointment at 39 weeks on the day that I turned 39 weeks and had the ultrasound. My fluid was very, very low. It was below the safe range that it should be. That was obviously a concern. My doctor recommended, “Hey, maybe we should induce you. I know that you don’t want to do that. I know you are trying to avoid interventions and do everything as naturally as possible.” But he said, “This could be dangerous where the fluid is so low.” This was a Thursday, so he said, “We have some options.” He said, “We can induce you today if that’s what you decide that’s what you want to do,” or he said, “We can wait through the weekend and have you come in first thing Monday morning and check again and see how things are going.” He’s like, “Honestly, you could go into labor over the weekend or you could come on Monday and we will see what happens and reevaluate then.”He said, “Basically, just go home. Pray about it. Talk to your husband. Make a decision and call me and let me know what you want to do.” So I said, “Okay.” I left his office obviously very flustered, upset, worried, and stressed trying to decide what was going to be the best decision to do because like I said, I wanted to avoid induction because I knew just from listening to you guys and from the research that I had done that the fewer interventions you do, the more likely you are to be able to accomplish that VBAC and avoid another Cesarean. I was kind of a wreck on that 40-minute drive home trying to decide. I was praying and like I mentioned earlier, we are very religious. We believe in personal revelation from God and that He’ll help you make big decisions like that. I called my husband. We talked about it. I was crying. I hung up with him and prayed some more. I just felt very, very strongly that we needed to go ahead and get induced that day. Even though that wasn’t what I wanted, I knew that was what we needed to do and that’s what was going to be the best decision for us, for me, and for my baby. So I got home. My husband and I confirmed with each other that he had gotten that answer as well through his prayers. We called my doctor and said, “Okay. We will see you tonight.” We made the arrangements. We got our daughter all situated with my amazing mother-in-law that watched her for us while we were there at the hospital. We made sure that everything was ready to go with our bags and headed to the hospital. Oh yeah. So another thing was that we had the hospital that we wanted to go to for the birth. It was a smaller hospital, a little bit newer. It was more naturally minded which was the kind of thing that I like and prefer. So we wanted to go there, but it turned out that they were full. There were a lot of babies being born that day, so we weren’t able to go to that hospital. We went to the other one, the bigger hospital across the street. Luckily, they were really close. They were able to get us in. They got us all checked in. That was at about 7:00 p.m. that we got there. We got us checked in, got me changed. I was only dilated to a 1 when I got to the hospital. Meagan: I was just going to ask what you were dilated to because the cerclage had been out, so I was curious if you had started dilating. Kayana: Yeah. The cerclage had been out for what was that? Four weeks at that point?Meagan: Yeah, quite a while. Kayana: It came out at 35 and it was the day I turned 39, so it had been out for 4 weeks. Like I said, we expected to go early again, as I had before, once it was out, but my body just had different plans. I was only at a 1 when I got there. They started me on Pitocin around 8:00 p.m. I walked laps around the labor and delivery floor for hours. My husband and I just walked around and around and around trying to get contractions going, but nothing was happening. I wasn’t feeling any contractions. My monitor was showing that some were happening, but they were really light. I wasn’t feeling them. So it felt a little bit discouraging and frustrating that it seemed that no progress was being made.From 8:00 up until about midnight, there was nothing. We just walked and walked trying to get things going, tried different positions and nothing was working. So at midnight, my doctor came into the room and he asked if I wanted him to go ahead and break my water manually to help things move along. I told him, “Yes. Let’s go ahead and do that. Let’s get things going. I don’t want to be here for three days.”He went ahead and broke my water. He used the crochet-hook-looking thing. Contractions started almost immediately after that. They were strong and they were progressive. They were doing their thing and they were there. Meagan: Awesome. Kayana: Yeah. They started going. That was at midnight that he broke the water and everything started moving along. I labored through the night just to try different positions and different natural coping mechanisms that I had read about and learned about beforehand. I had my husband do the hip counterpressure on me. I ended up laboring in a hot shower for a little while with the water running on my back which felt amazing, just lots of walking, changing positions, bouncing on the ball, you know, all of that fun jazz. Obviously, it got more and more intense as the night went on. We’ll talk about my doula at the end, but my doula didn’t show– spoiler alert. She did not show up, but luckily my nurse that I had was a little bit older and she was very naturally minded which was such a blessing. She knew a lot of tips and tricks for helping with labor and different positioning. She was all for it, so that was a big blessing to be able to have her show me things and try different things with me to help with the pain management because I really, really wanted to go unmediated and not get an epidural. So it was a blessing that she had that naturally minded attitude and was able to help me with things. So midnight, broke water, and things started. By 6:00 a.m., I was fully dilated. I did have a little bit of a lip. They said that I was good to go to start pushing which, looking back, I think, was a little premature. I wish that I would have waited until I had the urge myself and felt that need. Lesson learned for next time but in the moment, sometimes you’re just going for it. You’re just in your own world and it didn’t even cross my mind. I knew beforehand that I should wait for the urge to push. I had read, done the research, and listened to so many episodes from you guys. I knew that I should wait, but in the moment, I guess I kind of just forgot. I was just trying to get done, get through it, be done with the pain, and get my baby here. It just kind of went over my head. I should have waited, but I started pushing when they told me to. I did have a little bit of a lip. It ended up that I had to push for about two hours. The baby kept getting, not getting stuck necessarily, but it kept hitting against my pelvic bone and he was just having a hard time getting out. I was having a hard time pushing. I was just so exhausted from labor and everything. So I pushed for two hours which was so hard. Honestly, having that being my first time ever pushing a baby out, I was shocked at how hard the pushing part was. It was amazing, but it was hard. I felt like it was harder than the pain of labor and getting to that point. Not more painful, it wasn’t painful for me, it was just hard. It was not something I was expecting. I pushed for two hours and ended up needing a small episiotomy which, again, my doctor was so respectful and so good about everything. He did ask before it, “Hey, is it okay if I give you just a little episiotomy just to help get this baby out?” So he did that and baby pushed out at exactly 8:00 a.m.Meagan: Oh my goodness. Kayana: It was the most amazing moment of my life. I still get emotional just thinking about it, just that feeling of pushing that baby out of me and being able to have that immediate skin-to-skin that I had wanted so badly and wasn’t able to have with my daughter. I just waited and waited so long, it felt like, to be able to have a brand new, fresh baby boy on my chest. Sorry. Meagan: You’re fine. Kayana: It was the most amazing feeling. He was so perfect and so beautiful. It was the most incredible thing I’ve ever felt. I felt so whole and just so healed from that previous experience. I couldn’t stop crying. I felt like I was crying and smiling and laughing all at the same time. I just couldn’t stop. My husband was there, obviously, by my side and he was so happy too. I just kept saying over and over again– all I could think to say was, “We did it. He’s here. He’s here. We did it. I can’t believe we did it. He’s here.” Just over and over, “He’s here. We did it. We did it.” It was just amazing. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Kayana: Yeah, he was here. He was safe. He was healthy. I had my baby boy with me. I had accomplished my VBAC and I was so proud. Meagan: You should be. Kayana: I was. I was so proud. I still am. We enjoyed a few blissful moments of that before I noticed the energy in the room completely shifted. My doctor is very, very confident. He’s very experienced and I’ve never really seen him worry too much, but I could tell by his face that he was a little bit worried and something was going on. Everyone started rushing around me. Nurses were putting all of their weight on my stomach trying to push on it. It turned out I was hemorrhaging really, really badly. I think at least the explanation I remember getting, was just that my body was super worn out from pushing for so long to try to get the baby out that it kind of just exhausted itself and had a hard time delivering the placenta. The doctor ended up elbow deep inside of me trying to pull things out. That didn’t help. I was still bleeding, so I ended up with an emergency D&C while laying on the bed completely unmedicated. Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say whoa. I’m sure that was intense. Kayana: Had the little metal scraper and everything, you know, casually performing a D&C on me. He ended up having to do that twice, so I ended up having a double emergency D&C laying there unmedicated. It was absolutely excruciating. Literally, the only thing keeping me calm through all of this was that sweet baby boy on my chest. I just held onto him and just tried to stay as calm as I could while I was going through all of this pain and these D&Cs and everything going on. My husband was obviously very, very freaked out, nervous, and didn’t know what to think. He was obviously very worried about what was going to happen to me, but that baby kept me calm. I was able to get through that. They finally, after the second D&C, were able to get the bleeding to stop, and get the placenta fully delivered. But through all that, I lost about twice the amount of blood as you would in a normal vaginal delivery is what they said. I believe, if I remember right, it was about 1 liter of blood that I lost. Meagan: Wow, that’s a lot. Kayana: Yeah, kind of scary. I was exhausted for quite a while after that. I didn’t really realize. I was out of it a little bit. I was naive thinking, “Oh yeah, I just pushed a baby out. That’s why I feel like crap,” but I think that a lot of it was the fact that I had lost so much blood and didn’t really realize in the moment how big of a deal it had really been until after the fact and after my husband was telling me everything that had happened days later, going through everything with me, and telling me how scary it really was. I did end up having to get some bags of blood and have a transfusion. I had to stay in the hospital an extra day just to make sure that things were good. Meagan: You were okay, yeah. Kayana: Yeah, but we came home two days later. My induction was Thursday night, baby boy was born Friday morning, and we brought him home Sunday afternoon. And yeah. That’s my story. My recovery from my VBAC was absolutely incredible. Obviously, I was sore down there for a while which is to be expected and I did have some stitches from the episiotomy that had to heal, but overall, I felt like the recovery went really smoothly and I felt really great. I was just on cloud 9 through it all and didn’t really think much of the soreness and the pain that was going on because at least it wasn’t a C-section I was recovering from again. Meagan: Right. Kayana: So yeah. Anyway, that’s it. Meagan: Oh, that’s beautiful. I’m so happy for you. I get tingles in my nose when I get emotional. Have you ever felt that? Kayana: Yes. Meagan: I get a little tingle in my nose and I was like, “Don’t do it. Don’t do it.” You can just tell. You should be so proud of yourself and so happy for yourself. I’m sorry that you did have a postpartum hemorrhage and it does happen sometimes after long deliveries or long births. You were contracting even early on, so your uterus could have just been like you said, tired. So I’m just so happy for you. Kayana: Yeah. Meagan: I want to talk about two things before I let you go. I know you’re on your road trip and your family probably needs you back, but one of the things that we have a lot of people be told is that they cannot have a VBAC or that they do not qualify because their C-section baby was preterm. Kayana: Really? Meagan: Yes, yes. We actually have some of our stories on the podcast who have been told, “No, because you had a preterm C-section.” Kayana: Why would that even correlate? I don’t know know why that would mean anything. Meagan: Well, the uterus wasn’t as stretched out as it would have been full-term. I mean, there are reasons. It’s so hard. When you hear that, you’re like, “I don’t want to do something that’s bad.” But I do have a study to share here and it says that out of 131 women that had previous pregnancies, 93 of them went on to have a TOLAC or a trial of labor, and 80 of them actually did achieve a VBAC. That’s still a pretty great percentage. Kayana: That’s amazing. Meagan: 86% of people who went for the trial of labor to have a VBAC ended up with a VBAC, but there are so many times where people are told that they cannot or it is absolutely unreasonable to even consider it when it is technically possible. So I would say to definitely follow up with your provider of course. Know your options. Learn more. Everyone has a unique situation, but your provider didn’t even question it. It was like, “No, we’re good. Why would we not?”We do have a blog. It’s a shorter blog, but VBAC After Preterm C-section, so if you’re in that category, go check that out. Last but not least, I know you mentioned your doula, unfortunately, didn’t show up which breaks my heart. Doulas are incredible and we love doulas. Obviously, we have a whole bunch of VBAC doulas but here in our own directory on thevbaclink.com/findadoula. They are amazing and we advocate for them. However, I wanted to just point out that as seen here, it is still possible to VBAC without a doula. Yes, we encourage them. We think they are amazing and they bring a lot of powerful education, but this is still possible. So what happened? I’m so sorry that did happen. Kayana: Oh, I hate to end it on a negative note after all of that high and beautiful VBAC story. Meagan: We don’t even have to. We don’t even have to. Kayana: I guess the gist of it– pretty early on in my pregnancy, I did decide to hire a doula. I really felt that it would be a beneficial thing. Like I had mentioned multiple times while I’ve been talking, I had listened to your podcast so much and heard so many wonderful positive, beautiful stories about doulas and how amazing they are, and then of course you and Julie. I felt like, “Oh, doulas are so amazing. I want one so badly.” I felt like I did some really good research and found one in my area. I did interview her before hiring her. We met up and went to lunch. It really seemed like we vibed. It felt like she was the right match and a good choice for me. I ended up hiring her and the closer we got to my delivery, we stayed in contact and had our plans. She checked in with me occasionally and checked how things were going. The day that we ended up having the induction, she was involved a little bit in that decision. I had called her. She was one of the phone calls I had made when I was trying to decide, and praying, and had talked to my husband about it. She knew that it was going to be a very likely possibility that I was going to be induced that day. She had planned on leaving on a vacation two or three days later after. That was her plan. She had been transparent with me about that and told me that. That was fine, but then after I told her my decision that I had decided that I needed to go in and get induced that day, she went ahead and let me know that she had decided to leave three days early for her vacation, that she was leaving that day, and that she would not be there at my birth. Meagan: Oh no. Did she not have a backup or anything? Kayana: She said, “I have a backup. I’m going to send my backup,” which, okay. That makes sense but also was kind of thrown on me. I had never met this backup because I wasn’t really expecting her to just up and leave on the day of my induction. I hadn’t ever met this doula. I was not as comfortable with her and just didn’t know her. I didn’t know what to expect. I did end up calling her, the backup doula, while I was on my way to the hospital. She said, “Okay. You go get checked in. Get everything going. I’m going to take just a small little nap and then I will come when I wake up.” I said, “Okay, sounds good.” I let her know what hospital I was in and I figured she would take maybe a one or two-hour nap. I don’t know. She said she was going to take a little nap and come to the hospital, and she never came. Meagan: Aww. Kayana: I labored all through the night and kept expecting her to show up and be there, and she just never came. It ended up that I still had to pay my original doula in full for her services that I did not receive. I don’t know. I just felt very betrayed, very sad, and upset about that whole situation. I don’t know what happened and I don’t know. Just not a great experience and I’m sad because I feel like I hear so many positive, beautiful experiences about having such wonderful doulas and it just wasn’t mine, but that’s okay. Like I said, I’m still grateful that I was still able to have my VBAC despite that happening and that I had a very supportive nurse who was very knowledgeable in probably a lot of the same things that a doula would be. She stepped in and acted as that for me. Things were good still. It still worked out, so I’m just grateful for that. Meagan: Good. I’m so glad. I’m sorry that happened for sure. Kayana: But anyway. Yeah, kind of crazy. Meagan: Well, if you are listening and you are looking for a VBAC doula like I said before, we do have VBAC doulas. They are amazing. I love them so much. You can find them at thevbaclink.com/findadoula. I’m so sorry that you had that experience, but I’m so happy and proud of you for having the beautiful birth that you desired despite all of the crazy things along the way, all the shots, and the cerclage, and the contractions early on, everything. You powerhoused through it and I just wanted to say congrats. Kayana: Aww, thank you so much, Meagan. You are so sweet. This has been fun. I’ve been so excited. You have no idea how honored I feel that you asked me to share my story. I’m so happy and I hope that at least one small aspect of it may help some other moms on their journey. That’s all I can ask for. I just hope that it lifts someone up and helps someone else along the way. Meagan: It absolutely will. All of these stories are just amazing. I really appreciate all of you who submit your stories to share content. We actually are sharing content now both on our podcast and on social media because people want more stories, more and more stories. Hopefully, we’ll be able to bring some more podcasts in a week but now we’re one a week. So if you’re out there listening and you really want to share your story, please email us your story or email us what to do and we will get that in, or you can just go online and submit your story both via social media and podcast. We will get those shared because really, there are so many people out there just like you were, I’m sure, wanting to hear these incredible stories. Now here you are, one of them, sharing with all of the listeners all over the world and I know you’re going to inspire. Kayana: Thank you so much. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to share. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“It was just the most amazing experience. I have never felt so strong.”Meet Katie, the newest member of The VBAC Link team! You will be in awe after hearing about her 39-hour HBAC journey (not including a week of prodromal labor!). Find out how Katie was able to bounce back after being told she was complete, pushed for hours, then learned she was actually only at 7 centimeters. You will also hear what chiropractic care did for her after 30+ hours of active labor. Katie followed her intuition to pursue her HBAC and worked hard during pregnancy to make sure that she was mentally strong during labor. Little did she know about the sheer exhaustion she would have to endure, but that preparation made all the difference.Additional linksHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsThe VBAC Link Blog: Home Birth After C-SectionThe VBAC Link Blog: Chiropractic CareFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Happy Wednesday, Women of Strength. We are so excited to be back with you today. This is Meagan with The VBAC Link and we have a special story for you. Obviously, all of our stories are amazing and special, but if you haven’t seen on our social media yet, we have a new team member on The VBAC Link team and she is Katie. Her name is Katie and she is going to be sharing her HBAC story with you today. If you didn’t know, she started in August and has been killing it. So grateful for her. She has been helping me with emails, social media, and all the things so you may run into her if you are writing on Instagram or anything like that. You may run into her messaging. Just tell her hello and give her a squeeze because you guys, she is amazing. Head over to her post on the Instagram page. Learn more about her and say hello that way as well. So yeah, we are going to dive into this story. Review of the WeekBut of course, we have a review. You guys, we are running down on reviews, so we need your reviews. If you would not mind, send us your reviews. You can give them to us on Apple Podcasts. You can do it on Google or Spotify. I think just google.com. On Facebook, you can message us and you can Instagram us. We love your reviews and we would love to read them. We have so many amazing stories coming up to finish out 2022 which is crazy to even think about that. It’s August right now at the time that I’m recording and we have almost everybody booked up for 2022. We have amazing stories, I will promise you that. But send us a review and maybe your review will just be read next on the podcast. This review says, “Must have for all pregnant women.” I love that because definitely, this is something we want to portray out there. Yes, VBAC is specific to vaginal birth after Cesarean, however, this podcast really applies to so many people out there who are just wanting to have a baby. Ways to avoid a Cesarean, ways to find good care, good providers, all of the things. So I would 100% agree with that. Must have for all pregnant women. It says, “Prepping for my VBAC in August” which is right now. “I found this podcast and it has been so inspiring. Hearing facts from experienced doulas and successful VBAC mamas has given me the confidence I didn’t know was possible. I now feel comfortable talking to my OB as well as my family and friends about why I want to VBAC and feel informed of all the risks. I also love hearing the CBAC stories so I will be ready to find healing however my next birth plays out. Thank you for all you do.” This is from Emily and that just gave me the chills because exactly. We want to prep for all things, all scenarios, all situations. So definitely listen to the CBAC stories. You guys, they are still so beautiful. A vaginal birth doesn’t always have to be for everyone too. Some people just choose a scheduled CBAC and that is okay too. So we love, Emily, that you are listening to all of the stories and that you are loving it. So it’s August, and if you haven’t had your baby yet, we are sending you the love and if you have and you are listening, send us a message. We’d love to know how it went. Katie’s storyMeagan: All right, Katie. How are you doing? Are you excited? I’m excited. Katie: I’m so excited. So happy to be here, Meagan. Thanks for having me on the show. Meagan: Oh my gosh, absolutely. We couldn’t not have you on the show. Thanks for being with us and with The VBAC Link. I’m not kidding. You are a saving grace. Every day, I feel so confident that everything is just going to be okay because you are in my life. Katie: Oh my gosh, you are so sweet. Thank you. But seriously, I love Meagan. I love The VBAC Link, so it’s such an honor for me to work with you and work with The VBAC Link. It’s so special. Meagan: Well, thank you. Thank you, thank you. I would love to turn the time over to you to share your journeys. Katie: Yes, I would love to. I just want to say that this is a special story for me especially because Meagan was such a big part of my journey. And all of you listeners, I just have to say that Meagan is as amazing as she seems. She is so wonderful. When we were living in Utah, I met with several different doulas and I loved them all. I knew them personally because I’m a doula as well and for some reason, I just felt like Meagan was my girl. She just helped me so much in my journey, so I am so grateful for you and it’s fun that you were there with me. So you can remember everything I don’t. Meagan: I will never forget it. I will never forget your birth. It was absolutely incredible and I’m so excited to hear you tell the full story in your words because obviously, I experienced it from my point of view, but I’m so excited to hear it from you. Katie: Oh thanks. I’m excited too. So I’ll just start off with my C-section. My first son, whose name is Ellison, was born in 2019. He was born via C-section. I ended up having low amniotic fluid. I went in. I think I was 38 + 5 days or something for my appointment. He had low amniotic fluid. I was with a midwife group in Utah, a midwife hospital group, and she was just saying, “Oh, that’s super low.” I was measuring low and she had me go in for an ultrasound. They saw. They checked the pockets of amniotic fluid and I can’t remember what mine was but it was actually really low. It was probably 2 or 3 or something and so she was like, “Oh man. You have to have your baby right now.” I was a doula and so I did know things like this could come up. I felt like I knew how to counteract things like this because I really was hoping not to get induced and have to go that whole route, but it was really hard being the mom in this situation. I didn’t have a doula. I hadn’t hired a doula. So being the mom, I was feeling really scared and like, “Oh my gosh. This is my first baby. What should I do?” I was trying to research it and it just kind of felt like we needed to go in for the induction. So anyway, we had an induction. My baby wasn’t tolerating the induction and I think it was probably 18 hours into labor or something. Actually, pretty much right when we started the induction, it seemed like things were going downhill. He just wasn’t ready. His heart rate kept decreasing. We were having some scary signs. We did end up having a C-section and that was really devastating for me. Especially looking back, I feel like the induction was not necessary at all. I feel like the C-section maybe was necessary, but it was caused because of the induction. Meagan: Mhmm. Katie: Learning more about it and talking to the midwife that I had for my second baby, she was like, “Yeah, it seems like there are some things that you could have tried first or some things you could have done.” It’s hard looking back and knowing that there were some things that were maybe still in my power that I could have changed for my experience, but it’s okay. I’ve processed it and it was unfortunate, but it ended up being okay. I’ve healed from that. But then it was really stressful and just anxiety-inducing for me knowing that I would have to have a VBAC. I just didn’t even imagine that that would be in the cards for me. I got all of the VBAC resources and I joined The VBAC Link. I knew Meagan and Julie just in passing, networking as doulas and stuff. Yeah, so I was planning for a VBAC and I did all of the things to prep for it. I would say that I mostly prepped mentally for my VBAC. I know how hard it can be to give birth generally, but especially with a VBAC, it just plays with your mind so much more. I was originally planning on doing a birthing center and I think it was maybe my first trimester, maybe into my second, when I decided to do a home birth. My husband and I hired Meagan. We felt really good about Meagan. We felt really great about our midwife that we decided to go with, so we were feeling really, really excited for my HBAC. I had prodromal labor for about, I think it was six days before I went into actual labor. That was just a nightmare. Anyone who has experienced prodromal labor knows how horrible it is. I just kept thinking, “This is the night. This is the night,” but it wasn’t. It was just going on all night long. I was exhausted. I couldn’t sleep. One of the days, my midwife suggested that I pump a little bit on and off during the day to see if that would kickstart my body into labor. That didn’t work. It just made it worse. So anyway, I was already exhausted, but I was also hoping. I’ve heard so many women say that when they have prodromal labor, their labor goes quickly. So in my mind, I was like, “You know what? This is going to be okay. I’m laboring a lot right now and maybe I won’t have to do it later.” In my mind, I had an idea that my labor would be kind of fast. I felt prepped and I was just giving myself that affirmation that it was just going to be quick and that it was going to be a strong, powerful, quick labor. That was not the case at all. I went into labor. I started having consistent contractions on my due date which was kind of fun. It was probably around 10:00 or 11:00 p.m. that night. They started out milder, but I definitely noticed them. My husband and I went to dinner. We dropped our son off at my parents’ house. We were just going to go on a due-date date. We went out to dinner and I remember I was just so exhausted. I was having mild contractions, I really didn’t think anything of it at this point because it had just been so regular. It had been happening so much. We got home and I got into bed and I remember thinking, “Okay. This feels different. I think this might be it,” because I hadn’t started my prodromal. It usually started around 2:00 a.m., but this was around 11:00 p.m., so I was like, “Oh, maybe this is it.”I did start having stronger contractions. I think it was 11:00 p.m. that night. I labored through the night. I couldn’t sleep because they were so strong. I was laboring on my birth ball. I got in the tub. I did different positions and stuff, but I couldn’t be in bed because they were painful enough for me not to be in bed. The next morning, my husband woke up and I was like, “Hey, I think this is it. I’ve been up all night and they’ve been–” They were mild to strong. I think that night, they started getting around 4-5 minutes apart and they were staying like that. So then I woke up and I was doing all of the things. I called my midwife and I was like, “Hey, this is what’s happening.”  I think I had told Meagan the night before, “Hey, I’m having contractions like this, so get some sleep if you can.” So I called my midwife and she was like, “Just let me know how it goes. I’ll come by this afternoon,” kind of thing. It seemed like it was still early labor-ish. They did feel strong, but it seemed like they were going from 4-5 minutes apart to 6-7 minutes apart, so we were just trying to keep it going. My midwife ended up coming over. I think it was around– my midwife came over around 4:00 p.m. to check me because I was telling her, “They are getting a lot stronger, more consistent. I think I’m ready to get checked and see where I’m at.” So she came over and I was dilated to 3 centimeters, 0 station. I remember being so excited because, with my first baby, I hadn’t been dilated at all. I mean, he was a little bit early and I was being induced, so I was dilated to a 0. I didn’t have many expectations or hopes, but 3 felt very exciting to me. I was like, “That’s okay. We can work with a 3. We can keep going with a 3.”So I felt very excited. I kept switching between rest positions and upright positions. We would go on a walk and bounce on the birth ball, and then I would try to do some side-lying or laying in the bath or something like that and switched back and forth. I was pretty tired at that point. Then my contractions started getting stronger and closer together. I called Meagan and she came over. I think that was around 10:00 p.m. or 11:00 p.m. They felt really strong at that point. As a doula, I was like, “You know what? I’ve been laboring for so long. I know the process of what labor normally looks like.” So in my mind, I was like, “I probably don’t have too much longer. I’ve probably been in active labor for a couple of hours or something.” So I set in my mind, “I can do this for a little bit longer. I’m okay.” But I was really tired and they had been getting really strong. Meagan was there and I remember she did a bunch of rebozo stuff on me. My contractions were weirdly really strong, and then I would randomly have a couple of smaller contractions. We were wondering if baby was in a wonky position or something. That night, it was 2:00 or 3:00 a.m. probably and I was having so much pelvic pressure. I was shaking. I was throwing up. I remember just being in bed and it was so intense. I had Meagan and my husband doing counterpressure.The funny this is that my husband had surgery on his pec. Meagan: Oh gosh, I know. Katie: A week and a half before my due date or something, he tore his pec at the gym and then had surgery. I was like, “You’ve got to be kidding me. Why did this happen right before our HBAC that we planned?” That was stressful to me and I felt so bad for Meagan because I knew she would have to pick up a lot of the slack because he was in a full sling and a cast. Meagan: He was. Katie: He was hardly even moving. He wasn’t supposed to lift anything, so that was a rough situation for us. Meagan was doing so much with the counterpressure and the physical labor. So we were all tired. Anyway, they were doing counterpressure and I was side-lying. I was throwing up. In my mind, I was like, “Yes. This is awesome. I’m throwing up.” I think I had around that point, I had someone call my mom and my sister. I had three sisters who were coming over and were hanging out in the front room. My mom was there. I was wanting them to be a part of it as much as they were wanting to be. We were all waiting. I don’t know about you, Meagan. I don’t know if I’ve actually ever talked to you about it, but I think around that time, I was convinced that I was in transition because I was showing so many of the signs. Meagan: You were. Katie: So in my mind, I was like, “This is awesome. I’ve been laboring for long enough. I’m shaking. I’m throwing up,” and it was getting me kind of excited thinking about it. I was thinking that I was getting really close. So yeah, then I was just like, “Okay, let’s wait it out and let things keep progressing.” An hour later, things still hadn’t been progressing. It seemed like it was still the same. I was completely exhausted at this point. I had been in labor for a really long time. A full day, a full night. It had been 24 hours at that point. We were just trying to decide, “Should I rest right now? How far along am I? Should I just rest and conserve my energy because I still have a while to go or should I get up and move and try to keep this thing going?”I decided to have my midwife check me and I told her I did not want to know. It felt so important to me that I did not know what progress I made or what my dilation was just because it is such a mind game. Especially for me, I knew it would mess with me so much to know the dilation and to do the math that doesn’t really add up between dilating, so I really didn’t want to know. She checked me and I remember her being pretty stoic. She didn’t really say anything, kind of walked out. But then it was the worst feeling ever because she went into the other room and was talking to my mom and my sisters. My mom and my sisters were planning on being in the long haul until I had the baby, but I think everyone was assuming it would be sooner rather than later. But then my mom and my sisters were like, “Okay, Katie. We are going to head home and go to sleep. We will be back in a little bit.” I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I didn’t know what I was at, but I knew that it was bad enough that people were leaving the house. I remember just being so devastated. Meagan: They went to go get lunch, right?Katie: No, it was 2:00 a.m.Meagan: Oh, she went out to sleep. She went out to sleep. Katie: Yes. So Melissa, my midwife, went to her van to sleep. My mom and my sisters went back home. They live close.Meagan: Yep, yep. Katie: Meagan and my husband were with me and I was just like, “Are you kidding me? Everyone knows that I’m not going to have my baby soon?” So I didn’t know it at that point, but I later found out that I was still a 3. Still 0 station. I was a little bit more effaced. I barely made any progress and it had been almost 12 hours since she checked me the first time the day before. I’m so glad that I did not find out because I don’t even know what that would have done to me and to my mental game. I don’t know if I could have come back from something like that. I was so upset by it already and I remember I was just crying and just like, “Oh my gosh. I can tell that it’s bad.”Meagan came up and hugged me and was being so nice. She was like, “Katie, it’s okay to cry. It’s okay. You are so strong. You can get through this.” It was exactly what I needed to hear, so I just had the little pity party for a second and it was just probably the lowest moment for me in my labor. I had a pity party for a little bit and I was like, “Okay, well I guess I’m just going to try to sleep as much as I can and keep resting because I probably have a long way to go.” I labored in bed and I was in the shower and on the birth ball. My midwife came back in and she was being so nice. She was massaging me and Meagan was doing counterpressure because my poor husband couldn’t do anything. They were working really hard and my husband was standing next to me and sleeping next to me. He was there with me the entire time which was so special.That entire night was rough. I can’t even remember it honestly. It was so exhausting. I was so tired, my contractions were so strong, and I still had a lot of pelvic pressure. I just couldn’t believe that I was not very far in my mind, so that was really upsetting. I think it was the next morning, I think, around 9:00 a.m. I was going to have my midwife check me again because again, we were just like, “What’s our plan? Do we need to keep sleeping? Should we get up and move around?” It was morning. I remember I had been laboring in the bath for a while and the sun was coming up and I was just out of it. I was so tired and everyone was like, “Okay Katie. It’s morning. It’s best to get up and live your life during the day. We’re not going to be sleeping anymore. We need to have a baby soon,” kind of thing. Not that they were pressuring me but they were just like, “Let’s keep this going. We can’t just keep laying in the bath this whole time.” She checked me at 9:00 a.m. She checked me not during a contraction, I believe, so she was like, “Oh my gosh. I can stretch you to a 10. You are +1 station.” We were just over the moon so excited. My husband and I went into our bedroom and we just cried and cried. My midwife was like, “Hey Katie, I think it’s time to start pushing. Let’s give you a minute to gather your strength. We’re going to start pushing.” We were so excited. I started pushing on the birthing stool. That was going on for maybe an hour, an hour and a half, or something like that. We started pumping just because weirdly, my contractions just didn’t get– they were strong, but it was just on and off. They were 3-4 minutes apart, and then 5-6 minutes apart. They never really made a clear pattern which was kind of weird. I was pumping and trying to stimulate my nipples so my contractions would get stronger and I’d be able to push the baby out quickly. We were doing that for a while. I wasn’t making progress. We could tell that baby wasn’t really coming or that nothing was really changing. We were kind of like, “Hmm, what’s happening?” My midwife checked me during a contraction and she was like, “Shoot, Katie. You don’t want to hear this right now.” She was like, “I think you’re going to kick me actually, but I think you’re only at a 7.” I don’t really even know. I’m not sure what happened. I think it had something to do with how she checked me not during a contraction so things were a little more loose and open, and then she checked me the second time during the contraction, so it was tighter and baby wasn’t ready to come and I wasn’t open. Is that right, Meagan?Meagan: Yeah, and I’m wondering too exhaustion-wise. Your body was needing rest. Katie: Yes. Totally. I had been in labor for probably 32 hours at that point.Meagan: Forever. Katie: Or something.Meagan: Yeah and not even just that, but prodromal before too. I’m trying to remember if it was more that your body just needed rest. And also, the position of the pelvis. Katie: Yes. Meagan: But yeah. It was such a bummer. It was a bummer. Katie: Yeah, it was just the worst news ever. It was so hard to go from 10 and pushing, I did it, I can do this for a couple more hours, and then she was like, “You’re at a 7.” I was like, “No.”Meagan: Yeah, and we weren’t sure if it was any swelling maybe. Maybe you were pushing prematurely. It felt like 10, then with the swelling. I don’t know. Yeah.Katie: It was a strange, unfortunate situation. Meagan: I know. I wanted to cry for you because I was watching you kill it and then to hear that, that’s just hard. That’s just hard. Katie: Yes. It was pretty devastating. For some reason, I felt strong mentally at that point. I was just like, “Okay, a 7. We can work with that. That’s great. I’ve seen people go from a 7 to a 10 in 20 minutes. I’ve seen them go from 7 to 10 in an hour. I’m getting closer than I was.” So we kind of had a pow-wow. We talked about it. My midwife was like, “How are you feeling? Are you doing okay? Are you coping? I don’t want to push you into anything.” She was super nice and gave me the autonomy to decide what I wanted to do. She was like, “We can break your water if you are wanting to move things along.” I decided, it just felt in my mind that I still had more to give. I was just like, “I think I’ll know when I’m maxed out and I’m not there yet. I think I can make it. I’m going to keep going until I just can’t keep going any longer.” I went on a walk. Meagan and my mom and my husband came on a walk with me. Meagan was making me do curb walks and these squat jump lunge things.She was like, “I know you hate me.” I was like, “Yes. This is horrible.”Meagan: You were like, “Yes. This is stupid. What are we doing?”Katie: It was the worst. I was just in so much pain and laboring. So we were doing that. I was trying to get baby to move, and then Meagan had the best idea ever to go to the chiropractor and get adjusted. For some reason, I don’t know why we didn’t think of that before. I had been going to the chiropractor my entire pregnancy for that reason. Because I was having an HBAC, I wanted to opportunity to go to the chiropractor if I needed to. For some reason, I was just in labor land or something. I just didn’t think about it. Meagan: Well, and it was nighttime. Katie: Yeah, that’s true. Meagan: And at this point, it was early. Not early, early. It was 11:00 maybe. I’m trying to think of what time it was. A little bit before lunch, maybe right after lunch, so I was like, “Hey, is your chiropractor's office open?” Did Matt call?Katie: I think it was Matt or my mom. Meagan: Someone called and was like, “Can you come?”Katie: Yeah. Someone called because I was like, “Have him come to my house,” because I had talked to my chiropractor about it and he said that he did home visits and stuff, so I was like, “Have him come over. I need to be adjusted.” The receptionist on the phone was like, “Yes, he can totally come over. It’ll be an hour, an hour and a half or something.” I was like, “No. I am not waiting that long for the chiropractor to get here.”Luckily, the chiropractor is really close, so my mom, Matt, and I jumped in the car and my mom drove us to the chiropractor's office. The car ride was horrible and I was just in the back seat moaning, vocalizing, and just having strong, strong contractions. We get to the chiropractor’s office and I’ll just always remember. It was the funniest thing. Even though I was out of it, I can still remember so clearly what was happening. I was a mess. I had been in labor, I think, for 36 hours at that point. I was a complete mess. I looked exhausted. My belly was sticking out. I was not wearing shoes or something. It was crazy. These two receptionists were teenagers or in their early twenties or something like that. You could just tell that they were shook. I was in there at the office and I was making my sounds every four minutes or whatever and they were just like, “What the heck?”Meagan: What are you doing here? Yeah. Katie: They’ve probably never seen a woman in actual labor who was not at the hospital.  Meagan: Right.Katie: They were just like, “What is happening?” It was so funny and I was just past the point of being embarrassed. I just couldn’t care less at that point. The chiropractor adjusted me and I remember him being like, “Okay, how long have you been in labor? Okay, 36 hours.” He’s like, “Yeah, totally. Hopefully, after I adjust you, you’ll go home and have your baby in half an hour or an hour or something.” I was like, “Are you kidding me? I hate you so much. It’s not that easy. No. It’s not just going to happen in an hour.” I was so bugged that he said that. Meagan: Like, “Don’t tell me that.”Katie: Yeah, exactly. It was well-intentioned of course, but I was just like, “I’m in labor. I’ve been in labor forever.” I feel like I can say that because that’s actually pretty much what happened. So I left the chiropractor’s office and seriously, the second I walked out, my next contraction after being adjusted, I felt the difference in my contractions. I was like, “Oh man. That did it. Baby is coming. I’m ready to go,” kind of thing. So we drove back home and I feel like everyone could tell, “Oh wow. This is different. These contractions are different than they have been.” I was excited, but I was just so focused. I labored on the toilet. I labored in an upright position in bed a little bit. I probably did that for an hour and a half or two hours or something like that. Then I started making grunting noises. Everyone was like, “Yep, sounds great. That’s exactly what you should be sounding like right now.” Those contractions were so intense. I remember one of my biggest affirmations was, “These waves or these contractions are not harmful to you.” I remember just feeling an out-of-body experience almost where I just got in my mind, “This is not harmful. This is helpful. This is natural,” so I could disconnect from my body almost and just have my body do its thing and have my mind be in la-la-land. “Everything’s fine. We’re doing it. Don’t worry about it.”That was crazy. I experienced that for a couple of hours of just total disconnection from my body almost. So then I pushed on the birthing stool for a little bit. I probably pushed for 40-45 minutes or so.Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say close to an hour.Katie: Yeah. Meagan: You pushed hard too, really hard.Katie: I was just like, “I am done. Let’s get the baby out.” It was so weird. I had never pushed a baby out through my vagina because I had my C-section, so I kept being like, “Is this right? I’m not sure. Am I doing it the right way? I can’t tell.” I kept asking for a lot of affirmations and stuff. That was really helpful. I just remember that Meagan was right there. My midwife was right there. My mom and my husband had been physically holding me up the whole time. I was leaning against him on the birth stool and he was just right there the whole time. I just felt so loved and so supported in a way that I’ve never felt before. It was incredible and so amazing. I was getting close. We could tell that he was getting closer and I was about to deliver him, so then we moved to the bed to help tearing-wise so he didn’t shoot out in that upright position. We moved to the bed and I remember that the ring of fire was so real to me. I was like, “Oh wow. Yeah. That’s it. I know what everyone’s talking about.” I remember I just kept asking, “Guys, can I do this? Can I do this?” It just felt so intense and it was just a crazy moment in my life. Everyone was like, “You can do this Katie.” People were giving me water. My husband was holding me and people were brushing my forehead and stuff. It was just so sweet and so tender. I kept pushing and then my baby was born that day. It was the best feeling in the whole world. Every time I look back, I just think about that moment and think, “I am so strong.” I can’t believe that I went through all of those challenges and the ups and downs. I just felt like the strongest woman in the world that I was able to accomplish that. I kept saying, “I got my VBAC! I got my VBAC! I’m so excited!” I was a mess, just crying. I was just exhausted, completely exhausted. I remember even feeling like I couldn’t even really hold my baby because I couldn’t even move my body or do anything. I was needing support to hold the baby. My husband was holding him and stuff. It was just the best moment ever. I had been in labor from the beginning of the contractions to the end for 39 hours which is just crazy. I just can’t even believe that that is a thing. How is that even possible? How did I go through that? I just think it’s so cool because I don’t know if people remember your story, Meagan, but you were labor for– was it 42 hours?Meagan: Yeah, 42. Mhmm. Katie: I just thought it was so amazing that Meagan was there with me the whole time and knew exactly what I was going through because she went through it too with her VBAC. She knew exactly what to say and it was just wonderful that I had the support and the team because I wouldn’t have been able to labor for that long in the hospital. There’s no way. I just really needed that time and the space and the patience. Everyone gave that to me. It was the most beautiful experience for me and my husband. We think about it all of the time. Meagan: Yeah, oh my gosh. It’s funny because that’s where I was too where I’m like, “I feel this for her so much. I understand this in so many ways.” We both had differentparts of our stories and everything. When you pulled that baby out when that baby came out, I mean, I wish that I could create this image for our listeners because you were in bed and everyone was surrounding you. Your family had returned. Katie: My sisters were there, yep. My mom.Meagan: Everyone had returned and the energy and the power in this room, oh. It was so incredible. It just gave me the chills. It was a whole level up of strong. Katie: I know. It was so powerful. My midwife and her assistant and I were just surrounded by women. And then my sweet husband who was by my side the entire time. So I started labor and I labored that night. It was just early labor and stuff and he slept, but he just didn’t even sleep the rest of the time. He was there with me the whole time supporting me emotionally. He still did a lot physically as much as he could, but he was there and so strong. It was just the most amazing experience. I have never felt so strong. I always look back and it makes me feel so confident knowing that I was able to do something like that. My body did that with me. Meagan: Absolutely. There were a lot of parts along the way where you could have just said, “I can’t do this.” The doubt could have taken over. And even if you had a moment, which is fine, those crying moments are healthy. Get it out. Cry. Let’s vent. Let’s yell. Whatever you need to do, and then you honed back in and got to work. Oh, it paid off and it was just remarkable. Leaving that birth, you would never have known that we were up all night because I was so high on life and happy and energized. I literally left energized. Katie: Oh my gosh. That’s so sweet. That’s so nice. I just felt so grateful. I had been preparing so hard for my HBAC. The second I found out I was pregnant with my VBAC baby, I started preparing. I feel like somehow, I don’t know. I knew that I would need all of that mental preparation for what was coming. Meagan: Yeah. Katie: It just paid off. I wouldn’t have been able to do it if I hadn’t been so strong mentally. Meagan: Yeah, yeah. And sometimes we prepare as much as we can before mentally and physically, and then at the moment, we still have some work to do. That’s okay too, right? Katie: Absolutely. Meagan: We still have processing. We hear these stories and I was triggered. I mean, I was in my driveway stomping around, throwing my arms, throwing a fit and all of the neighbors were probably like, “What is happening with her?” because I was like, “If my water didn’t just break, I would be able to do this.” I was just such a mess. Yeah, you know, we just have these things that we need to work through. It really is. Mental and physical prep is so important. Deciding where to hold that space and give birth. You did it in your home which is amazing and Julie did hers in her home. I did a birth center. I wanted a home, but my midwife didn’t do home births, and then we know that amazing births happen at the hospital too. I think that finding your space, finding your support, prepping your mind, all of these things are going to benefit you. Even in the review, even if it doesn’t end up in the exact way that you want it to, through this preparation, you will be able to feel better about the situation, hopefully. That’s what we hope. Katie: Absolutely, yeah. Meagan: That’s one of the things that we talk about in our VBAC class, in our parents’ class, is that here are the tools and the information. We are letting you decide what is best for you whether that be the hospital, home, birth center, CBAC, induction, whatever it may be, right? Here are the stats. Here are the facts. Here’s the information and here are the tools, and then we support you and love you no matter how you birth. Yeah. I will cherish your birth forever. I’m so honored and grateful that I got to be in that beautiful space and witness such power. Really, I can’t explain the power that came from that room. People were standing on the bed. We were standing on the floor. We were all over. I remember when I looked at Melissa, I was like, “Try closed-knee.” She looked at me and was like, “What? You must be intoxicated.”All of these things, we just come up with ideas and that’s one of the best things about having that team is that you have all of the brains instead of just one entire brain. Katie: Yeah, for sure. Meagan: And when you’re in the moment, you can’t think about those things personally like, “I should do this. I should go to chiropractic care.” Right? I didn’t think that we should do rebozo at my birth. We didn’t do rebozo. I’m like, “Duh. Why didn’t we do that?” I don’t know. Okay, so I want to share a little bit of a stat that we have on our website. We have a blog about home birth after Cesarean and how to decide if HBAC is right for you or if the hospital is right for you. But it says, “Home births are becoming more common, especially home birth after Cesarean or HBAC. Laboring at home is common, but even more and more parents plan to stay home for the delivery itself. In 2017, almost 1.4% of births in the U.S. happened at home or a birth center, up to 50% since 2004.” Isn’t that crazy?Katie: So crazy. Meagan: Up 50%. So we have the study here and we talk about how to plan for a home birth if you are wanting a home birth, the risks of home birth, the benefits of home birth, and then same thing, how to choose if the hospital is right for you, how to plan, all of the things. And so definitely check out that blog. We will have it in the show notes, and then we also love chiropractic care. We have seen powerful things with chiropractic care, and so we will also link our Benefits of Chiropractic Care in the show notes as well. I encourage if you can or if you are comfortable with it to check out a chiropractor near you who specializes, if you can, in Webster-trained or in pregnancy. Not every chiropractor is going to suit a pregnant person well because there are different types of chiropractors out there. Try to find one that knows how to correctly adjust a pregnant person and is able to really work with the pelvic dynamics while pregnant as well. Anything else that you would like to share, Ms. Katie?Katie: I just want to share that I, like so many women, am so grateful for The VBAC Link and for you Meagan, and when Julie was doing it, just so much for sharing these stories. I listened to the podcast so frequently when I was pregnant with my second and getting prepped for my VBAC. I’m so grateful to you guys for creating the community around VBAC, helping us find resources, and giving me the encouragement and confidence to do a VBAC for my second. Meagan: Aww. That makes me so happy. That’s really our goal here– giving you the education, the confidence, and feeling better while you are going through your journey. Thank you again so much. I seriously am not kidding. I am so grateful to you. I am so happy that you are back in my life even though you are not here in Utah anymore. Seriously, I just know that you are going to do amazing things here at The VBAC Link and you are going to continue to touch people all over the world. Katie: Aww, thank you, Meagan. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Big babies can come out of vaginas! During her first pregnancy, Lucy was told that she had a macrosomic baby. She was pressured into an induction which ultimately led to a C-section. Her baby was just over 8 pounds. Lucy later learned she was closed up with internal staples and only glue on the outside. Her incision popped open not long after surgery, she developed an infection, and she spent her first few weeks of motherhood traveling to the hospital to get her incision packed. The second time around, Lucy refused to take no for an answer. Though she stayed with the same hospital practice, Lucy equipped herself with an amazing VBAC doula and lots of VBAC Link education. She trusted the birth process and her team, safely delivering a 10-pound, 2-ounce baby!Additional linksAussie Doula5 Tips to Deliver a Large Baby Vaginally BlogBaby Weight Prediction and Third Trimester Ultrasound Blog5 Steps to Get Your Partner on Board with VBAC BlogHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Hello, everybody. Guess what? We are doing an impromptu episode today. This is our friend, Lucy. You’re listening to The VBAC Link and we can’t wait to hear her story. We are going to talk about big babies. We hear it all the time. Big babies. “I can’t have a vaginal birth because I have big babies” or “My pelvis is too small.” But she is here to share her story with you today and let you know that big babies can come out of vaginas. That is the big statement today. Big babies can come out of vaginas. Review of the WeekMeagan: I’m going to hurry and read a review, and then we will jump into her story. This is from bjmg104 on Apple Podcasts. It says, “This podcast is empowering and positive. As a home birth transfer turned Cesarean, this podcast has been so instrumental in helping me shed the shame and sense of failure I have been feeling since my son’s birth. Armed with the knowledge gained in this podcast, I now feel more confident than ever in my next pregnancy. VBAC is possible for me. Thank you for this podcast.” Well, thank you, bjmg104 for sharing your review. Lucy’s StoryMeagan: Okay, Lucy. We are jumping right in. I am going to turn the time over so you can have all of the time to share your story about big babies. Tell us about it. Tell us about your experience. Lucy: Oh my goodness. You know, I see all the time “big babies, big babies” and from 18 weeks pregnant, the second pregnancy now, I was told all the time. They would measure my belly and they would say, “You know, he’s measuring two weeks ahead. He’s measuring two weeks ahead.” Part of me was like, “Well hopefully, he’s big like one of his Uncle Nicks,” because I have an Uncle Nick, my brother-in-law,  and an Uncle Nick, my brother, and I was like, “Maybe he’ll just be a big dude.” It’s okay. My mom had 10-pound babies so I was like, “I think we’ll be okay.” But obviously, I was really, really hopeful for my VBAC and I left my previous practice after my first birth because my first birth was something that was just really, really traumatic to me. It didn’t go at all the way that I had planned. It really came down to me just even talking to myself and my husband and us looking at ourselves and saying, “Being educated is just such a big thing.”I remember from the day that I found out I got pregnant, I would go on walks every day with my daughter and I would listen to The VBAC Link. I would say, “These women know what the deal is.” They are educated. They understand what’s going on. They’re empowering themselves. I was like, “You know? I’ve heard so much about doulas.” I didn’t really know if a doula would be for me. I talked to a couple of different companies and I found Aussie Doula here in Charlotte. I spoke to Helen and she said, “You have to meet Raquel. She’s my VBAC queen.” I was totally swept away after meeting Raquel. My husband and I joke because Raquel has that spiritual vibe to it where she really centered me, but then she also had a voice for me. From the beginning, Raquel helped me make that decision and stand up for myself from those appointments where maybe you don’t want a cervical check right in the beginning because anything can happen. That’s kind of what I’m going to share. I don’t know if I need to touch at all on my first experience with my firstborn. Meagan: Yeah, feel free. Feel free.Lucy: So with my first, I was pregnant. I had a really healthy pregnancy, with not one issue whatsoever. I was the girl that people didn’t really want to talk to when they asked me how my pregnancy was. I was like, “It’s really rainbows and butterflies. That’s how it is. It’s great.” People were like, “Ugh. Not even morning sickness?” I was like, “Literally nothing.” So I was told that I had a macrosomia baby. I really trusted my doctor. I had been with that practice for five years. He was like, “Listen, if you don’t do an induction, you’re basically asking for a C-section.” I didn’t know who to ask. I wasn’t part of the different groups online, so I just trusted. At 39 weeks and 2 days, I went in on a Thursday and I got induced with Cervadil and Cytotec for two days. I was completely zero dilated. Nothing was happening. On Saturday, they hit me with Pitocin, then about 30 minutes later, my water exploded. I still wasn’t dilated.Then, I got an epidural at 6 centimeters and I just plateaued. During that time, I got a fever and an amniotic fluid infection. Everything that could go wrong was going wrong. I remember from the first night on Thursday, a doctor walked in and said, “You know, we don’t have to do this.” He goes, “You could just have a C-section and you don’t have to go through this pain.”At the time, I laughed it off, but in hindsight, I was like, “He was so not supportive and that should have been my red flag from that moment.”Meagan: Yeah. Lucy: But I really trusted the process. He was someone at the practice I didn’t know and I had never met. Turned out that he was the guy who did my C-section on Sunday. So that Sunday when I had my C-section, I started to feel a lot of things and a lot of pressure down there. I don’t really do great medically when it comes to– everything grosses me out. Towards the end of my C-section, I was hollering. Josephine came out, my daughter, and she wasn’t really crying or doing anything. That’s another sign to me that she wasn’t ready, you know? She didn’t have her full time to be ready and do what she needed to do and my body needed to do for her to have the birth that also she deserved. I was closed up in a way that really wasn’t grand to me. I had internal staples and outside, I had only glue. I say this because I’ve empowered so many of my friends already to just know, “How are you closed up in the case that maybe you do have a C-section?” It’s something that many of us don’t talk about or think about because we are like, “Well, a C-section won’t happen to me.”Well, after a three-day filled induction, you can only imagine how swollen I was. By the time we got home on Tuesday, I popped my incision open. My top layer. I ended up back in the ER. Meagan: Oh man. Lucy: It was awful. We got home Tuesday. Thursday, that happened. So in the hospital, they swabbed me for COVID. I’m positive for COVID, so now I’m like, “Well, the world’s ending, surely.” So then I have an infection in my uterus. I need antibiotics. They want to admit me for three days and I’m just like, “I can’t.” If you want to put a woman into postpartum depression who is surviving it and getting through it, take her away from her baby for three days and put her in the hospital. I was like, “I can’t physically do that. Not mentally.” I just had this sweet little girl that I want to be next to. I want to have my moments with her and my husband so I was like, “There’s just no way.”Thankfully enough, I was given antibiotics, but I did have to drive all the way to uptown which is 30 minutes from where I live in Fort Mill, South Carolina, and have my incision packed every two days by the doctors because it needed to close up. It was just such a nightmare. For five good weeks, I looked at my husband and I was like, “Maybe we’re only child kind of people.” We come from big, Greek and Italian background families and I always thought I wanted four kids. I was like, “I just don’t think I could ever go through that again.”The time passed and like all women, we forget our trauma. So then the time came when we were like, “Let’s add to the mix.” I’m more educated. I’ve been reading a lot on this. Things are possible. Just because I had a C-section doesn’t mean that I am now married to that. I had family that still lives in Greece and even my aunt was like, “Well, now that you had that, that’s all you can ever have.” I was like, “No, that’s not true. I’m going to show the world that that’s not true.”So when I got pregnant, I looked for a practice that was supportive. I went on The VBAC Link and I just got on Facebook and I read about different doctors. I went to this one practice in Charlotte at around my 18-week appointment. I was told that at 40 weeks to the day that I would have a C-section. I asked, “Why?” He said, “That’s what we do with all women.” I said, “Well, I’m not all women. My name’s Lucy and I have a unique medical history. I’m me and my own pregnancy.” He said, “That’s just not the risk that this practice takes.” I said, “Well, I’ve heard that Pitocin is safe. Foley bulb if necessary. There are other mechanisms and other things that we can do.” He said, “That’s just not something that we are willing to do.” I said, “Well, going back to our first visit and our other conversations, you’re not VBAC supportive then. You’re barely VBAC tolerant.” He said to me, “Well, I’ll give you my suggestion, and then worst case scenario, you just don’t come to the hospital.” I said, “Well, I’m not here for that worst-case scenario. I’m here to fully trust in my doctors and my provider.” I said, “So that’s just not the option that I’m looking for.” He responded with, “Well, we’re going to part ways. Better sooner than later.” So that was my hint. I came home, looked at my husband, and said, “The one appointment you didn’t come to.” I was like, “Everything hit the fan.” I was like, “No way.”So I reached out to my old doctor, Dr. Graham, who had left the OB part of the practice and stuff. She had gone on her own to a different practice and I said, “Who do you recommend?” She said to me, “There’s a great doctor at Midview OB/GYN. His name is Dr. Gibbons.” So my husband and I made an appointment. We went out there and we spoke with him. From the first second that I sat there, he said, “Macrosomia baby? Why is this on your chart? She was 8 pounds, 4 ounces.” He said, “This is irrelevant.”Meagan: Ahh!Lucy: He said, “There is no practical reason that you had a C-section.” I said to him, “Thank you. That’s exactly what I’m saying.” I said, “I’m just here for a fair chance.” He talked to me and he said, “If it does end up in a C-section, I don’t want you to think that you failed.” I said to him, “By no means if that’s how the ending happens and I have a healthy baby and a healthy mama, that’s not how I’m going to feel.” I said, “However, I do want the full experience, the full opportunity to be able to have a trial of labor and achieve my VBAC.” From there on, every time we met, he would talk about the size but he never told me that the size meant that I needed to get that baby out. So as things progressed in my pregnancy, I would hear a lot that he was large. Around 40 weeks, I had an ultrasound. I also had one at 36 and they said that he was big. And then I had one right at 40 weeks to the day which was two Thursdays ago. The ultrasound tech was the sweetest. I loved seeing her at this one location. She measured him and he measured in the 97th percentile. Then she did one whole measure again, everything, and she goes, “I’m getting the same exact number.” She’s like, “I just feel so confident that he’s 97%.” I said, “Okay, great. Thank you.” She said, “He looks healthy. The amniotic fluid is healthy.” I was like, “Great.” So then, Friday, I went in to the doctor– so I guess earlier in the week on Monday, I just decided that I would have a membrane sweep, but I was only 1 centimeter dilated. I was 50% effaced. I didn’t really know if doing that was for me. I hadn’t had one check my entire pregnancy and every time I said, “No,” it was a question when I went to the doctor. It was, “Would you like to be checked?” I said, “No, thank you.” And then that was the end of the conversation which was perfect to me. I will stop and just say one day I was having some pain. I want to say that I was early 30 weeks pregnant. I went to an urgent care OB here in Charlotte and it just so happened that my doula was in the area so she went with me. When I got there, I was having some pain. That’s why I went. The nurse practitioner opened the door and she said, “Go ahead and undress from the waist down. You’re in labor.” As she closed the door, my doula went, “Is that what you would like?” The lady opened the door and just looked at me. I said, “No, that’s not what I would like and frankly, you don’t even know the color of my hair. How would you even know that I’m in labor?” I said, “What I would love is for you to come in and have a conversation with me and if we feel the need to do something, we will be on the same page.” She goes, “Well, I am going to have to mark your chart that you declined it.” I said to her, “Do what you’ve got to do.” At this point, I said, “But I would appreciate it if you could come in and you could feel my belly. We could just talk through it.” She just had the worst attitude the whole time and then when the ultrasound tech came in, she did a scan and she was so sweet. She was showing me the baby and she was like, “Look, everything looks great here,” and blah blah blah. I was just so thankful that she brought me back down. I’m not one to leave a review, but I made sure. I was like, “I want the world to know that if you are going to come here, you’re going to have to have a voice,” and then I realized there was a theme at that urgent care that you really didn’t have a voice when you went in. I was so thankful that Raquel was with me, my doula, to help me have that first experience of standing up for what I wanted in my birth plan and in my pregnancy. That’s why I thought it was such a big deal when I would go to a Midview OB/GYN that it was just a question of, “Would you like this?” So around 39 weeks when I had my first sweep, 39 and a few days, I had that ultrasound and I saw Dr. Gibbons on Friday prior to going into labor. At that point, I was 1.5 centimeters and he did a sweep. I had actually lost a lot of my mucus plug during that sweep. He just said to me, “Well, the goal is to go into labor naturally. That’s what we’re going to keep saying.” That was really it. He didn’t tell me my baby was big or I needed to get him out. That night, I started having contractions all night every eight minutes for hours. The next day, they were gone. I was like, “Oh no, was that not real? What’s going to happen now?”Of course, the later you get in your pregnancy, you’re like, “I really want to go into labor. Is this going to happen for me?” So on Sunday, I was 40 weeks and 3 days. Around 6:00, contractions started happening again every ten minutes. I hung out on my yoga ball. I walked around. We went for a walk in my neighborhood. Around 9:00 p.m., I was like, “Okay, it’s time to lay down and relax.” I lay in bed and they kept getting closer and closer and closer, but they were still more than five minutes apart, and then around 12:25 a.m., I felt a pop. I was like, “That’s got to be my water.” So I stood up and sure enough, it was my water. I called Raquel and she said, “I’m going to come by the house first” because the goal was not to get to the hospital too early as well. Although I had trust in the process and the doctors, I was still really nervous that someone would try to force an epidural on me or even just a catheter in case I needed a C-section so we were trying to really get to the hospital at the right time. I started to get ready though and Raquel was on her way to my house. My husband was packing the car. Something didn’t feel right. I felt a little bit of extra pain and I’m very high pain tolerant. I called Raquel and I said, “I just want to go to the hospital.” My contractions at that point were five minutes apart and she said, “Absolutely.” She had just pulled up to the house, so we left. We went to the hospital. We got there. The nurse came into triage and she checked me. She didn’t say anything. I said, “Well, good news? How dilated am I?” She looked at me in a sad little voice and she said, “Have you ever been checked?” I said, “Yeah, I was checked on Friday. I’m 1.5.” She said, “You’re still 1.5.” I was like, “Oh no.” She goes, “That was your water and your baby has meconium.” The monitors were reading a really high heart rate for him. All of a sudden, my world crashed down. I was like, “That’s it. This is it. I’m going to have a C-section.” Raquel looked at me. It makes me all sad and I just want to cry as we talk about it. Raquel looked at me and she said, “It’s a marathon. It takes time.” She goes, “You have to remember to release and allow your body to do what it needs to do and surrender.” She goes, “The beginning is going to be slow. It’s going to happen so fast once it gets going. You’re not going to expect it.” I believed. I believed at that moment that Raquel was telling me exactly what I needed to hear and know for my body. We hung out in triage for maybe an hour and by the time we got to a room, I was 3.5. I was like, “Okay, progress.” Thirty minutes later, I was 6 centimeters. I was like, “Okay.” We got to the hospital at 1:45 at night. By 4:45 a.m., I was 8.5. I was 8 centimeters dilated. Raquel had been constantly moving me. She would not let me stay in one position. I was just like, “Is this really happening? Everything is happening so fast. These contractions are so hardcore.” But she recommended nitrous for me because we were trying to stay away from the epidural at least in the beginning. At that point, I was begging for it. She said, “If you make it to 5, we will get an epidural, but just try the nitrous for me.” I tried the nitrous and while it didn’t remove the pain, it took the edge off. I don’t know if you’ve heard of other women using it, but I will say that it definitely was a great tool to have in your belt in the delivery room. Meagan: Yeah, I used it as well. It was great. Lucy: Yeah, I had no clue. If you had told me, I would have had no idea. So by that point, when I got to 8 centimeters, Raquel was like, “Listen.” She goes, “We’ve got this.” She goes, “I’m going to have you get up. You’re going to sit on the yoga ball. We’re just going to keep moving.” I was still asking for the epidural. She said, “Can you try asking for the epidural when you’re not in the middle of a contraction so I can believe you?”I was like, “That’s not fair.” The nurse comes over and she hangs a bag of liquids. She says to me, “When this bag is finished, I’ll get you an epidural.” I said, “Y’all are so setting me up right now.” There’s no way there is going to be time to get an epidural. Everybody is looking at each other and not looking at me like, “She ain’t not getting an epidural.” So by the time I got up and sat on the yoga ball, I was like, “Oh my god, I have to push.”They get me right back on the bed. They check me and I’m 10 centimeters dilated, but he’s not perfectly face down. He’s not all the way sunny-side up, but he’s not all the way down either. Raquel manhandled me. She totally flipped me on my side. It was Spinning Babies to the max in the middle of contractions that are happening every couple of seconds. I just relaxed into what she was doing. It was the flying cowgirl and he just flipped right back to where he needed to be, the perfect position. I pushed for an hour. So at 5:00 a.m., I started pushing. By 6:06, he was here. I just can’t say enough for a hospital that I went to and didn’t have a great experience with my first, I had the most phenomenal redemption birth that I could have dreamed of. The nurses, even the NICU team that was in there just in case. The doctor from the practice that I had never met, Dr. Rogers was at the end of my bed for the entire hour that I pushed stretching me, helping me to the point where I only have a midline of a vaginal tear. I didn’t tear any other way with a 10-pound, 2-ounce baby. It’s just so unreal to me that you’re told all the time, “Big babies. You can’t get them out.” I’ve been reading these posts online for days since I had my little one on the 18th of the month and I feel the need every single time a woman posts in distress to respond and be like, “You have this. You’ve got this.” Meagan: The 18th of this month?!Lucy: I just had him!Meagan: Like not even 10 days ago?Lucy: Not at all. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Lucy: Yeah, he’s so fresh. That’s why I’m so in all my feels about it. But I did. I looked at Raquel and I don’t know if I’m allowed to say bad words here, but I looked at her and I said, “I got my f-in VBAC.” And we high-fived in the room.I was like, “Yeah.” We high-fived. I was like, “This happened.” I was like, “I need the world to know.” Meagan: Yes! And here you are. You’re sharing it with the world. You’re sharing it. Lucy: Yeah, absolutely. Meagan: And it is. It is possible. We’ve seen big babies come out of vaginas. We have seen it. We really, really have. Lucy: Yes. I think that we just need the opportunity to allow our bodies to do what they need to do. I mean, he was born at what? 40 weeks and 4 days? Meagan: Yeah. Lucy: A healthy, happy boy. Meagan: Yes. Well, you know what? In the show notes, we are going to include a couple of blogs about getting big babies out. So five tips to avoid a C-section and delivering a large baby. We are going to post that in the show notes. So if you want to read more about big babies and how possible it actually is, check out the show notes. If you don’t believe this story alone because a 10-pound baby, that’s a good size baby. It’s possible. You’re not a big person. Lucy: I’m 5’5”. Meagan: Yes. You’re 5’5”. It’s not like you’re 6 feet, super, super tall because a lot of the time, taller people, when I say big, I mean tall torso and stuff like that, but 5’5” is still pretty small. Lucy: He was 23 inches long too. So he’s a long, tall boy. Meagan: Way long, yes. Lucy: Yeah. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Well, congratulations. I cannot believe it was seriously less than 10 days ago, but we are so happy that you shared your story with us. I know that you are going to inspire so many out there. You know, also too, there’s a lot of times where providers will say, “Oh, you’ve got a big baby in there,” and then the baby’s not that big. Seriously, we’ve had clients that were told that their babies were 12 pounds and they had to have a C-section and then they had a C-section and their baby was 7 pounds. Lucy: That’s why I feel like I’m here on The VBAC Link because I was told that with my first. Meagan: Yep, exactly. Lucy: That’s my story. Meagan: And it was. And your baby was 8 pounds. It’s so hard. You’ve got to follow your intuition. Good for you for sticking with it and fighting through everybody even when there was some tension. You were fighting through, so congratulations and thank you so much. Lucy: Thank you. Thanks, Meagan. This VBAC Link just has empowered me through this whole process.Meagan: Oh, that makes my heart so happy. Lucy: Mine too. My husband, too. He was so on board with everything. I can’t ask for a more supportive partner. Meagan: We are going to drop that one too, talking about supportive partners and how to get yours on board because that truly makes a big difference when you have that support, especially if there’s not a ton of support coming from the provider or they’re not as gung-ho if you can have that support from your partner, oh my gosh. It makes a world of difference. Lucy: Absolutely. Thank you so much. Thanks for all that you do and all of our voices that are heard. Meagan: Absolutely, thank you.  ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Meagan welcomes Julie back today to celebrate 200 episodes of The VBAC Link podcast! They celebrate this milestone with a special live Q&A podcast recording session joined by followers of The VBAC Link Facebook community. Topics include: how to talk to your provider, all about Spinning Babies, adhesions, managing sciatica pain, induction, nipple stimulation to induce labor, VBAMC, C-section consent forms, and much, much more.We can’t wait to continue sharing new episodes with you as we stay committed to our mission of making birth after Cesarean better!Additional linksSpinning Babies websiteThe VBAC Link Blog: Pumping to Induce LaborFear Release YouTube VideoEpisode 18 Leslie’s HBAC + Special ScarsJulie’s InstagramThe VBAC Link Community on FacebookHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Julie: Welcome to The VBAC Link podcast. This is our 200th episode and yes, you are listening to Julie. I’m back just for this episode and probably some more in the future at some point, but we are so excited, Meagan and I, because this is the 200th episode. We are now live in our Facebook group. Not now when you are listening to it, but right now in this moment in our timeline. It took us way too long to get in here live, but we are doing a Facebook Live podcast episode. We have never done that before and we probably will never do it again because this was kind of traumatic.Meagan: Yeah, this was a little rough, but that’s okay. Now that we know, now that we know, we are good. We’re good. Julie: Now we know.Meagan: It just took 34 minutes to figure it out. Review of the WeekJulie: Oh my gosh. Cool. So, let’s get started first. There is a Review of the Week. Meagan, are you ready? Do you have one?Meagan: Yep, I do. This is from blpinto and it’s from Apple Podcasts. It says, “Wonderful resources for ALL moms, not just VBACs.” It says, “I didn’t have a C-section for my first birth, but I had a traumatic experience with a forceps delivery and an induction that was not at all what I was looking for. I started listening to the podcast before I even got pregnant a second time to prepare for a better experience. Julie and Meagan were a huge part of my process and journey. I ultimately had a beautiful home birth and a 10-pound, 6-ounce baby. I felt this podcast helped me overcome my fear that I couldn’t push my baby out without help because many VBAC moms had the same feeling.”I love that. I don’t know many first-time or second-time moms who haven’t had previous C-sections that have listened and left a review. So that was awesome. We truly believe that this is also a podcast for everybody. Just like wonderful Brian says at the beginning of this podcast, it’s for all expectant parents who want to avoid a Cesarean and want to learn their options and learn what’s happening out there. So that is so exciting that we had someone who hadn’t even had a C-section before. If you know someone who is expecting and has fear or maybe a first-time mom who has some doubts and problems and traumatic experiences in birth, definitely share the podcast. These stories are amazing for all to listen to. I would 100% agree with her.Julie: I love that. Do you remember years ago when we first started and we were trying to figure out how we could make something, maybe not separate, for first-time parents? We were like, “How do we get first-time parents to understand that these are things they need to know?” Because you didn’t. I didn’t. As a first-time mom, I didn’t even think about a C-section until the doctor said, “We need to do a C-section,” and we never really got very far with that because the focus of The VBAC Link is a vaginal birth after Cesarean. Yeah, so we love that. We, I say “we”. I will always say “we” talking about The VBAC Link. Meagan: Literally, just earlier today, I was recording a podcast and I was like, “we”. I mean, “I”, but Julie is just over here. Julie: My spirit and presence exist in the VBAC realm.Meagan: Yes. But it’s so much fun. It’s so fun to be here and I’m excited. If you guys haven’t had a chance or if you are watching live right now, we would love your reviews. Love, love, love your reviews. You can send us an email. You can write right here and I will copy it over and put it in the reviews. We are excited to dive in today on episode 200!Q&AJulie: Yeah. All right, all eight people who are watching. I guess one of those is me and maybe you, so six. Six people. Drop your questions. Nothing is off-limits. We are going to talk about everything you want to know. Everything you want to hear. We are going to get down and dirty with everything VBAC, wives, and kids. If you want to know what Meagan’s kid is doing right now in the background, we will talk about it. Meagan: Yeah, drop your questions. I’m posting here letting people know that we actually are live now. Julie: Oh heavens. VBAC: Where do I start?Meagan: Yes. It’s so funny. I keep looking on the wrong forum. Okay, who do we have in here? Who do we have? Kathryn, Jen, and AJ thank you so much for being here. Let us know your questions. I want to maybe start off just on VBAC options. We had someone write in yesterday and was like, “One, I didn’t know VBAC was an option. I didn’t even know what it was.” So that’s wonderful that they’re starting to find out that VBAC is an option, but let’s talk about how we can have a conversation about VBAC being an option with a provider. That’s just random, I know. But what would you think, Julie, if you’re starting to discover VBAC, learning what it is, feeling like you want to feel it out, maybe you want to learn more about it and do it, how would you suggest approaching your provider?Julie: Oh man, that’s a great question. First of all, we’ve got some good questions coming in too so I’m excited to answer these. Provider, honestly, I would just ask where their thought process is. I would approach them and say, “Hey. this is what I’m considering. What are your thoughts about it?” And I will tell you what. No matter what their response is and no matter what ultimately your birth plan is, you’re going to get a really good feeling for how your provider feels about body autonomy, informed consent, and birth in general because if they answer and say, “Oh, well I don’t think you are a great candidate. I don’t do VBAC. I don’t support them,” or anything that’s very sounds set in stone, so, “I don’t do this. We won’t let you do that. We would have to look at this and make sure your percentage is high,” or whatever. Anything that is set in stone shows you that your provider is not as supportive of other options or your provider has a very set way of doing things and may not be a good choice for you. But if they answer and say, “Yeah. We can consider VBAC as an option. Let’s talk about some things about what your goals are. I do VBACs a lot. I love VBACs” or anything like that with a more open or a more fluid answer is going to let you know that your provider is going to not only be good with whatever outcomes that you choose but is also very open to having the parent or the mother be part of the birth process and be involved in the decisions regarding their care. That’s really what you want to have on your side no matter what type of birth you’re having or where you are giving birth. You want to have a provider that is going to be open to your input, be a little flexible, a lot flexible based on what your needs are and the type of birth you want, and is able to accommodate that. Meagan: Yeah, and just that’s willing to have that conversation because a lot of providers don’t honestly come out and say, “Hey, do you want to have a TOLAC?” which is a trial of labor after a Cesarean. That may be something that you have to take charge of and say, “Hey. I’m learning about this. What are your thoughts? How do you feel about it? Tell me about some experiences.” We always talk about open-ended questions but really, truly if you can ask an open-ended question, you’re going to be able to get more information than a “yes” or a “no” or an, “Oh yeah. Sure,” versus, “Yeah. I feel really comfortable with that. We do that all of the time. This is why.” So I love that. I know it was a random question, but a lot of people are asking, “How do I even approach this topic with my provider?”Okay, are you ready? I’m going to read some questions. We’ll bounce back and forth. Julie: Yes, let’s do it.What is Spinning Babies?Meagan: So Ms. Kathryn says, “I just found your podcast last night.” Yay! And now you’re here on the first live one. It says, “Bingeing ever since. What is Spinning Babies? I’ve heard it talked about a lot on the podcast.” Spinning Babies is a wonderful resource. They have all sorts of circuits and tips and tricks on ways to navigate babies through the pelvis. Breech positions, so if you have a breech baby, they have positions and exercises to do that. We’ve got posterior. We talk and they also do baby mapping to help figure out where your baby is. Julie: Belly mapping. Meagan: What did I say? Julie: You said “baby mapping.”Meagan: Baby mapping. I meant belly mapping. Julie: They’re the same thing.Meagan: That’s what I meant. Baby mapping. I almost said it again. Belly mapping to help you figure out where your baby is. They can educate on if a baby is posterior, what types of things to do and what to do if a baby is asynclitic or comes over the pelvis, and what tips and tricks you can do. A lot of doulas are really educated in Spinning Babies. It is so awesome. So awesome when the client, don’t you think, is educated in this and they are familiar with it. Julie: Yeah. Meagan: So obviously, we talk about it a lot in the podcast, but we really encourage people to check out their website. They have updated their website and it’s really quite great now. It’s really friendly to navigate, so check it out. It can be a game changer. I have had positions in labor where things were just hanging out, stalling, not really going anywhere, and then we have done a Spinning Babies technique and boom, that baby rotates and labor is speeding along. Julie: Yeah, I love that. I think one thing that I really like about Spinning Babies too is that it puts less emphasis on babies being in this specific position and it creates more emphasis on creating room and space in the pelvis.Meagan: Balance. Julie: And with the connective tissues and yes, balance and all of those things because sometimes, babies need to enter into the pelvis in a little bit what you would call “less than optimal.”Meagan: “Less than ideal”, yeah. Julie: But as long as baby has enough space and room to wiggle and progress through the pelvis in the way it needs to, then you’re going to have a great, not a great, that’s a bad promise. You’re not going to have a great labor necessarily, but you’re going to be able to encounter less problems that are created by a poorly positioned baby or tissues that might be more difficult to move and things like that. So yes, balance, space, and flexibility. Do adhesions impact fertility?Meagan: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, let’s see. AJ Hastings. “Do adhesions really impact fertility? Currently trying to conceive for seven months and was told by acupuncture that I need 12 months of weekly treatments. I definitely want another opinion.” So the short answer is yes it can. It can affect things. In fact, we have an episode and I will go find it here. I’m going to go find it. I’m going to drop it. It’s so weird because we are on Zoom, but we are on Facebook over here. I’m going to drop it in the Facebook group right here because it definitely impacted her. It impacted her and adhesions, depending on how dense and how thick and everything, it can impact fertility. 12 months of treatment? I don’t know. I mean, I’m not a specialist in how intense that needs to be. I have adhesions as well, but I don’t know how dense they are. I was fortunate enough to become pregnant, but it can impact it and it’s something to look into. I don’t think it’s bad to get a second opinion for a whole year of treatments, but I also wonder if scar massage, starting with scar massage by yourself, or going to a pelvic floor specialist and starting there might be beneficial. Julie, what would you think?Julie: Yeah, right along with what you said, it can. That’s the thing. It doesn’t always, but it might. Adhesions, especially ones that are denser or thicker can tug and pull things in the wrong way. They can make it harder for eggs to implant and can cause a whole slew of problems for your overall health depending on the relation to different organs that they might be adhered to. All sorts of things, but it doesn’t always, right? One thing that I would ask my provider that’s recommending that is what other options are available, what other things might be impacting my fertility? Have you seen any other types of providers? Have you seen an OB/GYN or maybe a fertility specialist in that regard or gotten a second opinion from them? Sorry, I think she said. Yep. I’m trying to see that it was told by acupuncture. Yeah, so I would maybe consult another type of provider. But trying to conceive for seven months is kind of a long time, but it also could take up to a year without there being any problems at all for just any random average to get pregnant too. That is just what was going through my mind. Is that the only thing that you are treating and addressing or is it part of an overall care plan? Are you seeing anybody else? That type of thing. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. And like she was saying, maybe a different provider, maybe a pelvic floor specialist to even just dig into what those adhesions look like or a care provider, but yeah. It can. I’m going to go find it. I was just scrolling, but I’m going to go find it. Do you remember, Julie, do you remember her name? Julie: You’re asking me if I remember anybody’s name?Meagan: I’m the name person. I keep thinking it starts with a J. I’m going to find it though and I’m going to drop it in for you, AJ. Okay, “I just had a VBAC a few months ago and,” awww. “I’m so thankful for both of you.” Thank you, Allison. That’s so sweet. So, so sweet. Julie: Thank you. How to manage sciatica painMeagan: Congratulations! Okay, Jenn. “I’m 39 weeks. My sciatica only allows me to walk for about 20 minutes without cramping. I see a chiropractor twice a week, but other than that, what can I do to help keep my baby in a good position and get labor going?” I would suggest the Miles Circuit right off the bat. Miles Circuit is wonderful. You can do it multiple times a day. There are three circuits and you want to try to do it for a minimum of 30 minutes but sometimes you have to lead up to that. That would be something that I would suggest. Maybe giving it a try. Also, Spinning Babies is very much a balance factor in creating balance.It sounds like your sciatica is not loving you right now and that is hard. That is hard, so being mindful also of being symmetrical and getting out of the car. I know that sounds really weird, but not stepping out with your left. Stepping out with your right. Trying to move out together because that separation with relaxin and things like that can cause the pelvic to shift, which then causes sciatica issues and all of those things. But I would suggest Miles Circuit. I would also suggest a massage. Getting things relaxed and soft because sometimes when things are tense, we’ve got that sciatica issue. Julie, what else would you suggest on that?Julie: Yeah. First of all, I would say that if you are in pain, then don’t do anything. It’s okay to stop. You don’t want to hurt yourself and cause pain, tension, and stress in your body because that could interfere with your natural labor hormones. But honestly, I would think going to a chiropractor twice a week and walking 20 minutes a day is great. I think that’s great to do. If that’s all you can do, then I don’t think you need to do anything else. 39 weeks could still be early based on when your baby wants to come, so don’t feel like you urgently have to do anything. If your provider is pushing you a little bit, then it might be time to have a conversation about what your boundaries are and where you are willing to go as far as how far along gestationally before you interfere. But yeah, what Meagan says for sure. The Miles Circuit, absolutely. Two positions in the Miles Circuit are that you are resting pretty much and just creating more space in the pelvis. I would say maybe if you want to try changing it up from walking, one of my favorite things is going up and down the stairs sideways two at a time. It’s kind of like walking, but you are really opening up that pelvis. So you go up with the right foot first, down with the right foot first, then switch to the left foot first, up and down. That’s creating a nice, flexible, open space and lots of equal balance like Meagan said. Meagan: And listening to your body on that. Listening to your body. If it’s too much, stop or just do three sets of stairs, three stairs. Just don’t push your body. Yeah. But I like that one. I actually did that with a client at a birth center where there were some stairs. We did that to get labor going and it totally helped. It was amazing. Julie: Yeah, I love that. That’s my favorite or curb walking. You just walk right foot on the curb and left foot off the curb and then switch with the other foot to keep that balance and stretch both sides of the pelvis. But yeah, change it up a little bit. I think you are doing great, personally.Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Going to the chiropractor that often is amazing. Realigning. But yeah, 20 minutes, maybe cut it down to 15 minutes. Just a little less before you are in too much agony. Yeah, yeah. Julie: It’s okay to take a rest. It’s okay to not do it one day too, or a few days, or every other day or twice a week. Meagan: Yeah. I would also say shaking the apples which is a Spinning Babies thing, but that actually really relaxes and softens down there and can help with sciatica pain. That’s just where you put the rebozo around your bottom and have someone sift, so you’re kind of doing this.Julie: It’s so fun. Meagan: This is so hard to be on a Live because I talk a lot with my hands. If you can see this in this video, Julie is very much here and I’m dancing.Julie: I even brushed my hair today. Meagan: You kind of get sifted and it really is nice for that sciatica. Okay, oh let’s see. Just listened to all,” oh my gosh, “all 198 episodes of you guys.” Oh yes, yes. I just can’t believe that we are at 200 episodes. I was telling my husband today and he was like, “Whoa. That’s a lot.” Yeah, that’s awesome. So awesome. Okay, do you guys have any other questions coming in on here? What else would you like to talk about, Julie, while we are waiting on any other questions? It’s been a minute. It’s been a minute since you’ve been on here. Julie: I know. It was 15 minutes before it was about to start. I was editing photos all day, so I was like, “Oh shoot, I should brush my hair and change my shirt,” because I had this frumpy little shirt on. I’m like, “We’re going to be on video today. We never usually do that.” Meagan: Yeah. You don’t have to be induced at 39 or 40 weeks!Julie: So it’s just interesting. Let me think. I was just trying to think what has been bugging me from The VBAC Link Community lately. Not bugging me, but you know when you just want to grab ahold of people’s shoulders sometimes and say, “This doesn’t have to be this way. You don’t have to do this!” Or just like, “It’s okay to stand up for yourself.”I think a lot of the things I have been seeing lately a little bit is when people talk about induction or their doctor not letting them go past a certain amount of weeks. Meagan: Yeah. Julie: That’s really kind of heartbreaking because, in America, we have a really frustrating maternal health care system. It’s really easy to get trapped in that if you’re not comfortable standing up for yourself if you don’t know that it’s okay to stand up to you’re provider, and if you don’t have an opinion about everything that you possibly can in birth. It’s hard when I see people going in and getting induced. We’ll see posts all of the time where people will be like, “Oh my gosh, I’m 6 centimeters. I’ve been soft for 8 hours. I was induced at 39 weeks. My provider said this and that and the other.” I just want you to know, everybody. You do not have to be induced at 39 or 40 weeks in order to get a VBAC.Meagan: You don’t. You don’t. I also wanted to talk about the opposite. On the flip side of that, I want to say that you can have a VBAC if you are induced. Julie: Yes. Nipple stimulation to induce laborMeagan: So there are both sides where it’s like you have to be induced or you can’t go for a VBAC or it’s, “I will not induce you.” And so anyway, it’s so hard. I was just looking. We have a group member that posted a couple of hours ago and she said, “I have a question about nipple stimulation to induce labor. I’ve been trying since yesterday and I do get contractions although they might just be Braxton Hicks because they are not really painful. But as soon as I stop, the contractions also stop. Any advice?”I just want to talk about this. In fact, I think Julie wrote a blog about this. I think, didn’t you write a blog about nipple stimulation and pumping to induce labor? I’m pretty sure you did. Julie: I’m pretty sure that was you.Meagan: It might have been. I don’t remember. Julie: That doesn’t sound like anything I would write. Meagan: Well, yes. So this is something that I actually did when I was in early labor. I wanted to talk about that, but my midwife kept saying, “Hook up to the pump. Hook up to the pump.” I hated that thing. That thing was not my friend, but it worked. It helped, I should say. But sometimes it doesn’t. And so kind of similar to what this group member is saying is that it sounds like it is releasing oxytocin in your body and it’s stimulating something. Something enough to cause your body to contract or have some sort of spasms in your uterus, right? Which is a contraction whether or not it is strong.But when you stop, it stops and so that is– this is what I tell my clients too. That is a sign that your body is not quite ready or it’s not going to respond to this type of method right now. Pumping is a really great option, but if it’s not going, I would say to pause. Maybe just give it a break and see what happens. You can try again later or follow the advice of your provider. I would say that it’s not bad that your body is not responding and it doesn’t mean anything like it’s not going to work ever, but it just sounds like your body may not be ready. So my advice is to maybe give it a break, try it a little bit more, try it a little bit longer and see, or maybe go have sex instead and try to release oxytocin in a different way in your body. So anyway, I just saw that. Are there other questions that have come in? Do you see any?Julie: Yes, there is. Meagan: Okay.Julie: Hi Paige, by the way! Hi Paige. Paige commented on the pumping to induce labor blog. Meagan: Oh yeah. Julie: Okay, so Tiffany, nope. Not Tiffany. It’s before that one. Tiffany, I’m going to get there. Angel said that if we want to read her post in the group that she would love some thoughts. So I found Angel’s post and I will read it. I love this. I have lots of thoughts, so Angel, if you are still watching, could you drop your location in the comments so I know? Oh, you’re in New Zealand. You already said that. VBA3CJulie: She said, “I would love your opinions. I have contacted 15 midwives in New Zealand and all have said ‘no’ to a VBAC after 3 C-sections. The main reason why I don’t want a fourth Cesarean is because fentanyl is in a spinal block.” P.S. a lot of people don’t know that. When you have an epidural or when you have a spinal block, the epidural is not the medicine. It is the method of giving it into your body. An epidural has lots of different medications in it. Fentanyl is one of them. Tramadol is another one. Sometimes there are antibiotics in there with them. But a lot of people don’t know that fentanyl is in an epidural and a spinal block. Okay, so she says, “Tramadol is the pain relief afterward.” Tramadol is a form of morphine. That will be present in the milk which is one of the reasons why she doesn’t want it. Antibiotics afterward, milk again, and all of her children have had severe colic and reflux to the point of sleeping four scattered hours overnight until they are 16 months old. All day naps are held upright. This is physically and mentally shattering. Could there be a link between colic, reflux, and antibiotics? It may be a possibility. “I live a 100% organic, tox-free lifestyle. I don’t even take pain relief for headaches. Cesareans go against my holistic lifestyle.”“That being said, the first two Cesareans, I believe, were medically necessary.” Cord wrapped very tightly around necks, very thin and short. Babies were wrapped up by their necks tightly and couldn’t move down, couldn’t descend. Fetal distress straightaway for the first baby, second repeat Cesarean for the same issue. The third, the cord was fine, loosely on my tummy, but the amniotic fluid was a 4. It should have been a 7. She was pressured into a repeat Cesarean in case there was the same issue as the first two. She said, “I just need tough love, realistic answers.” Should she just have a fourth Cesarean and do everything else holistically? Meagan: That’s tough. Julie: Yes. Meagan: We had a message come in earlier. I’m wondering if it’s the same person because it sounds strangely familiar. New Zealand. I can’t speak. But wow, that’s tough. That’s tough because you have good, solid reasons, beliefs, and feelings. Yeah. You know, it sounds like you are getting a lot of pushback in your area. A lot. That’s a lot. There may be somewhere underground there that would allow it, but yeah. I don’t know. It seems like you have enough reason to not do certain things. I don’t know. I would maybe. I would maybe, actually. What would you do, Julie?Julie: Well, she says she wants tough love and I love tough love. So when I get permission for it, I will fork it out. Meagan: Yeah. Julie: So here’s the thing. First of all, vaginal birth after three Cesareans, I love, love, love that we are seeing more stories come out about VBAC after 3 C-sections. Meagan: Me too. Julie: There’s not a lot of data to support its safety or not. We have a few studies if you want to google VBAMC. We have a whole blog about the information that is available, but there’s just not a lot out there. The way we get a lot of information out there is for more people to do it, right? That might not be a risk that a lot of people are willing to take. Personally, I would probably try it because I kind of know all of the information and everything, but I don’t know because I haven’t been there.So here’s my tough love, okay? It sounds like you have talked to a lot of providers. This sounds like the providers you have talked to do not want to support you in your choice. And so when that happens, and this is for anybody who can’t find a supportive provider not necessarily just directed at you, Angel, you have a few options. First is to go into labor and wait as long as you can and go to the hospital and fight and fight and fight. Out-of-hospital probably wouldn’t take you on as a patient. But depending on, I don’t know how the healthcare system is set up exactly out there. So go to the hospital, show up pushing, which I would never recommend that ideally if you could, but that’s an option for you, okay? Go into labor. Go into the hospital. Maybe get a doula. Have your partner on board or somebody there who can really heavily advocate for you and be fighting the whole time. Or you can birth unassisted at home, which I also don’t necessarily recommend, but there are a lot of people that can do it and do it smartly. Meagan: They have a lot of solid resources.Julie: A lot of resources, have a really solid backup plan, know everything that you need to look for as far as warning signs in labor, maybe labor close to the hospital or in the hospital parking lot or something like that. Neither of those might be good options for you, but it sounds like there’s not really a good option anyway. I think also, sometimes I appreciate and envy, to some degree, the holistic lifestyle that you have. Sometimes, if you don’t feel comfortable fighting in the hospital or having a baby unassisted, your third option is to have a repeat Cesarean. Meagan: Make it really special. Julie: Maybe you won’t have a holistic lifestyle at that moment. ** You’re going to have to get some medications that you don’t love, right? You’re going to risk having those things *** began with the colic and maybe the upset digestive tract from the antibiotics and things like that, but that also might not be the worst thing to have ***. The only thing that you are going to be able to know is what the best choice is even though there is not a good choice. I don’t know if that makes sense or not, but yeah. I mean, you can create a nice, beautiful space like Meagan just said. You can ask for the spinal block and see if there are any alternatives to the fentanyl or other kinds of medication that they can put in there. You can ask for a shorter hospital stay. You can look into ways to heal your baby’s gut after the C-section. You can look into vaginal seeding which can get the baby’s gut populated with your flora from the vaginal canal which is really helpful for the baby’s microbiome and things like that. I feel really angry for you a little bit. Meagan: I know. Julie: –that the system is set up to work against you in such ways. But I feel like this is something that you are really going to have to sit with and tune into your intuition hardcore and figure out what risks you want to accept, right? Because it sounds like you are going to have to accept some whether it’s birthing with a C-section and not having the birth you want and introducing those different things to your baby, birthing unassisted without a provider present, or fighting as hard as you can in the hospital for your VBAC. Meagan: It infuriates me that people even have to be in this space at all.Julie: Yeah. Meagan: The providers are so worried about supporting people doing vaginal birth after multiple Cesareans, yet they’re pushing people and making people feel like they have no choice other than to birth with no provider. I am not saying that someone who births without a provider– I’m not shaming anybody for sure, but I think it’s nice to have that supportive provider behind you, that trained, skilled provider. A lot of people that do go unassisted, I’m not kidding you guys, they dive in deep. They are prepared and that’s awesome. Good for them. Absolutely good for them. But it just makes me so mad that someone even feels like they are stuck in making that option. Julie: Yeah, I agree. Angel also asked a follow-up question if she could decline antibiotics. Here’s the thing. You can decline anything you want to decline. It’s just going to depend on what’s going to make your providers nervous and if they’re willing to provide care or not. I don’t know. I don’t know if your provider will be comfortable doing a C-section without having antibiotics available during and after the C-section or not, but that’s something that you can talk with your provider about ahead of time and see what that looks like. Or have a minimum dose or only one round or something like that. Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. I love that. Sorry, my little boy, this was also part of our technical difficulties. Look at his head. Show everybody your head. Julie: He got konked. Meagan: And your arms, huh. Yeah, he fell today at recess. Julie: All right, let’s move on to the next question. Angel, I give you all of my love and support. Meagan: I wish you luck. Julie: Yeah, I do. Please keep us updated. Us, again. You guys, this is killing me. Meagan, you have to let me know when Angel updates you because I’m invested now. Gentle induction plansJulie: Okay, what’s next? We have– oh, yes. Let’s get to Tiffany. Hi Tiffany. Tiffany M. Okay, so she said that her doctors told her that they will not allow her to go past 39-40 weeks. She was able to control her blood pressure thus far and she had hypertension in her last two pregnancies. Her doctor doesn’t want to induce because it allegedly increases the risk of rupture. Meagan: Your voice. Julie: Sorry. “They’ve been insanely supportive of VBAC but this contradicts what I’ve been seeing.” Yes. This is what we were talking about before, right? Induction. You can have a VBAC after being induced, but also you don’t want to have to be induced at some arbitrary deadline to have a VBAC. Induction does increase the risk of rupture slightly, but when it’s managed appropriately, the risk is very minimal. So definitely look into that. Poke your provider. I say “poke your provider”. Don’t poke the bear, right? Don’t poke the bear. Ask your provider. Talk with them and see because that might not be a provider that is that supportive. It is sad that when you have a provider that you absolutely love and there’s this one thing. There’s one thing and it sounds like this is the one thing.Meagan: But that’s a big deal. Julie: It is a big deal, yeah. Meagan: A big deal, yeah. Julie: And people won’t allow you to go past 39-40 weeks. I would bust out the ACOG bulletins on VBAC and the late-term management of pregnancies or something. Meagan: Yeah, and induction. Yes. I was just going to say. Bring them, even if it sounds over the top because I’m going to tell you, print it all off and take it to them. Julie: Do it. Meagan: And say, “But this is what this says. This is who you are under and this is what they are saying, so why can’t we discuss a gentle induction plan?” Or, “Let’s observe and do more monitoring with all of these things and take it day by day. Take it every other day. I’ll do an NST. Let’s break it down so you’re comfortable. I’m comfortable. We’re all doing what is safe for me and baby of course.” Sometimes it sounds extreme, but it might take bringing it in and saying, “Hey. This is what I have found. Let’s talk about it. Let’s break it down.”Are you going and getting that for her? Is that what you’re doing?Julie: I’m responding to whatever comments. Meagan: Oh okay.Julie: Obviously now, I’ll just do it verbally. So she said, “Managed how? Through a slow administration of induction medicine?” Yes, absolutely. Yes, so this is the thing. Sometimes you’ll hear the phrase “Pit to distress” where nurses will, this is a real thing. It’s sad but it is, where nurses will up the Pitocin so aggressively that it literally forces the baby to go into distress so they just do a C-section. It’s a very aggressive way to administer Pitocin. You don’t want that. You want to do a nice, slow dose. Increase it by 1 or 2 every 45 minutes to an hour. Give your body a chance to respond before upping it even more. I’ve seen VBAC inductions where they konk out the Pitocin by 4 every 30 minutes and before two hours happens, you’re up at the max dose of Pitocin and then the baby gets so stressed out and you have a C-section.Meagan: And the body isn’t responding fast enough. Julie: The body’s not responding at all because it doesn’t know what the crap is going on. It’s being slammed with Pitocin, this artificial hormone. That is not an induction that is managed well. A managed well induction is nice and slow. Start with a Foley bulb. Start with a nice, slow dose of Pitocin. Rest during the beginning of it. Give your body time to catch up. While being monitored, that’s a nice compromise and making sure everything is being tolerated well. If your body is responding, stop turning the Pitocin up at all or even turn it off after your body kicks into labor. Meagan: Yes. I was also going to say there is something called a “Pit holiday” where sometimes our uterine receptors get too full and overstimulated with Pitocin. It’s okay to do a “Pit holiday” and cut it in half. So say you’re at 20, let’s cut it down to 10 and see how our body responds because sometimes we can be overstimulated and our body is like, “This is too much too fast. I don’t know what’s happening.” It’s not responding and then we cut it in half, our uterine receptors empty, our body kicks into that natural labor, and then boom. We’re in labor and we don’t even need 20 mL of Pitocin, right? Or like Julie said, we get into this active phase and we feel like we have to keep upping the Pitocin, but if we’re getting into the active phase and we’re making progress, we don’t need to keep pushing Pitocin. And yeah, slow dose. Sometimes, some people, we recorded a story just now and talked about this. It’s coming out in October, so let’s talk about it right now. Sometimes we get in a space where induction is what’s needed this time, but we’re not cervically progressed enough to just put in a Foley or a Cook, right? So sometimes, we have to start a low dose Pit, maybe 2, 4, 6 mL max and just let it be for hours. It could take hours, you guys. I’m not kidding. Not three hours, not four, but ten plus hours it can take sitting at that slow, low dose to get the uterus stimulated enough to open just enough to get a Foley or a Cook catheter in comfortably. And then, we start from there. We work with the Foley and the Cook. Maybe you leave Pit right there or maybe they start increasing it or they just do the Pit at 6 or 8 or 10, and then just let the Foley do its thing until it falls out and then we start from there. There are so many ways that we can manage and take things slowly. Walking in, breaking someone’s bag of waters is not necessarily slow, managed, and controlled but that’s what a lot of providers will do also. They say, “Oh, I’ll just bring you in. We’ll just bring you in and break your water.” Sometimes, the body doesn’t respond to that and it takes hours, and then we’ve got Pitocin coming into play anyway. But then sometimes, that’s the perfect way, right? So we have to take it slowly. We have to decide what’s best for us and where we are at cervically can make a big difference of where we start. Julie: Where we are at cervically, I love that. Meagan: Yeah, where we are at cervically. Julie: Cervically, cool. All right. Thank you, thank you. All right, let’s move on. Christine, Christina. She says, oh I think it’s maybe more of a review. Thank you. Okay, so she says, “Listening in from South Africa.” We have lots of people from South Africa lately by the way. Meagan: Yay. Julie: I say “we” like I’m, anyways. “Been listening to the podcast, binge listening all the time and so amazed at how much I’m learning in each story and from you both. I also love how listening to everyone’s stories, especially the C-section stories have helped me process mine and helped me feel much more peace going into my VBAC at the end of this year. Thank you so much for the podcast and everything you guys are doing. I keep sharing relevant episodes with friends that are currently pregnant with their first. Things I wish I had known despite having done a lot to prepare for my first birth.”Meagan: I love that. Thank you. Julie: Aww. I love that. Thank you. Yes, Meagan. Grab this and drop it into the review spreadsheet. Meagan: I know, will you copy and paste it for me? I’m going to read this. I pulled into the group and found a question that just was posted. We actually got a lot of recent questions here in the group and so I figured I’d throw this one in. Julie: Wait, but there are more in these comments, though. Meagan: Oh, keep going. Julie: Do you want me to do the comments first?Meagan: Yes, sorry. I didn’t see it. What happens if you don’t sign a C-section consent form?Julie: No, you’re totally fine. There’s AJ, Juleea, and maybe more. Okay so AJ said, “Hypothetically, what happens if you don’t sign a C-section consent form? I know they can’t just make you take you back, but how would you handle this if they were being forceful?”Meagan: Now that one’s super hard because you have to be strong. You have to be really strong. But how I would handle it, I would break it down. I would ask them to break it down and talk about why. “Why are you asking me to sign this form? Am I in danger? Is my baby in danger? Are we facing death?” Julie: Facing death. “Will I die?” Meagan: Yeah, complications by dying. “Are you telling me that my baby and I are going to die right now? Because if we are having this conversation then that probably means that it’s not the case.” But yeah, break it down and say, “No. I don’t consent to this. I don’t feel comfortable with this. If this is not life threatening right now, and this is not emergent, then I want to continue on the path that I’m going.” This sounds really bad and it’s so hard because everyone can be– we’ve got people all over the world, right?Sometimes it’s saying, “Okay. I’m going to leave. I’m going to go somewhere else.” We’ve had that. Julie and I personally have had clients say, “Okay, I’m leaving then. If we’re not going to do this, if this is not what’s going to happen, then I’m going somewhere else.” And sometimes they change their tune right there because they don’t want you to leave. They usually don’t want you to leave, so they change their tune and say, “Okay, hold on.” But sometimes, it takes leaving and going to somewhere else that is supportive. But that’s not what you really want to do in labor. Julie: Yeah, this is why you want to figure it out before labor starts. Meagan: Yeah, it’s not the space that you deserve to be in during this labor journey, but sometimes it’s fighting. It’s fighting and it’s hard. It goes back to what we were talking about with Angel. It makes me so mad that there’s not the support that everyone really deserves. We deserve the support, you guys. We’re just going in to have babies. That’s all. We’re just going in to have a baby just like everybody else, but sometimes we’re not viewed as that. So yeah. Any other tips, Julie? I mean, yeah. I would say breaking it down and having that conversation, but what would you say?Julie: I mean, I would kind of say the same thing. A lot of the times, I feel like, they just have you sign all of the forms that you might possibly ever need while you are in labor at the beginning of labor because it saves on admin time and it saves on things you have to do later on and things like that. But what I would ask about the C-section form, when they’re going through that whole process is, “Do you make first-time moms sign this form?” Because I bet you, I know their answer because they don’t make every laboring person sign a C-section form, but they will if they are getting you ready for a C-section or they think that you are at an increased risk for one.And so, we all know what the numbers are surrounding VBAC and what your chance of success is and how, if given the option to try, you are very likely to succeed. So I would just ask that. And if they say, “No,” or whatever their answer is, I would change my next question or next statement. My next statement after they answered would be that, “I will sign it if it is looking like that is going to be an option, but for now, I am planning on a vaginal delivery. Until a C-section becomes imminent, I will refrain from signing the form.” And then if they raise a big fuss after that, I might go to more extremes like what Meagan talked about. But I mean, this is the thing. If it’s a life or death situation and you’re not looking great or baby is not looking great and I’m not talking about, “Oh, we have some concerns.” I’m talking about, “We need to do something now.” They’re not going to care whether the consent form is signed or not, they’re going to wheel you to the operating room and save your life or save your baby’s life. And so I think that waiting and asking to wait until it looks like a C-section is needed or necessary is a perfectly reasonable option. Meagan: Yeah, I agree. Okay, so I realized that I didn’t see because I only saw one last comment from Tiffany saying that she is anti-Pitocin over there.Releasing fear around childbirthJulie: Yeah. Julie has one. And this is a great one for you, Meagan, too. It’s how do you release fear around childbirth? I’m 40 weeks today and I’m anxious for labor. My first arrived via C-section at 37 weeks due to high blood pressure and being breech. I never experienced any part of labor and I’m just fearing the unknown. Fearing uterine rupture, not progressing, tearing, all of it. Meagan: Yeah. You know, fear release is so important. So important and I think I’ve talked about this maybe on my story or maybe in other things, talking about how I thought I released everything, and then I was in labor and there were still stuff that I was processing and working through and having to go through. But a few tips that I have are actually Julie’s fear release that she did a long time ago on our YouTube and it’s a smokeless or flameless. Julie: Smokeless fear release except that’s used very loosely because we did create smoke at a fear release once. Meagan: We did. We did. We did. Julie: There were a lot of people releasing their fears, but yes. Meagan: Yes, I actually remember. That was really crazy. We did that in a VBAC class actually. Julie: Yeah, at my house. Meagan: Yeah, so I actually really, really, really love that activity and suggest it all of the time. I’ve actually done it with my own clients in labor. We’ve done it in living rooms on the floor. Obviously, it’s hard to do if you’re in a hospital at this place, you can’t just break that out. Julie: Light a fire, yeah. Meagan: But doing it, and even if it’s every night because for me, when I was preparing, I had different thoughts and being on social media didn’t help me quite honestly in that very end. And so some of the tips would be the fear release activity, going through, writing them down, burning them, and truly burning them. Burning your fears. Letting them go. Letting them go and accepting whatever is coming your way. Know that you have done all that you can to prepare for whatever does come your way. So that and I also suggest doing that with partners because sometimes partners’ fears will trickle in and create fear. Not that they’re meaning to do it, but they have fears and then they say things and our minds are like, “Oh, I didn't think about that.” And we have to process that. Another thing would be a social media break. Sometimes social media in the end is wonderful and motivating and positive and keeps us in a great place, and sometimes, it just starts creating more fear. So sometimes we think that taking a total social media break is really healthy and helps process because you can just be with your own thoughts and not with all of the other hundreds and thousands of people on social media’s thoughts because everyone is going to have an opinion. Everyone is going to have an experience. You love hearing those just like we love hearing this podcast and these stories, right? But sometimes, those feelings and those experiences can rub off on us, sometimes in a negative way. So if you’re noticing that some of your fears and things you’ve seen and heard on Facebook or social media, any social media platform, maybe take a break from that. I would say journaling is one of the best things I did for myself in processing fear. I was told by my OB that I was for sure going to rupture. He told me that. As I was on the table, he was so glad I didn’t have a VBAC because I for sure would have ruptured. For sure. When I heard the words “for sure”, that was very dominant in my mind and it hung with me. So when I’m laboring with my third, I was feeling that in my head. “What if I rupture? What am I doing? Am I doing the right thing?”I knew in my heart that I was doing the right thing but I had self doubt. And so if that starts creeping in, voice it. I would say that my suggestion would be to get it out. Get it out. I’m sure that Julie has seen it, but as a doula, sometimes we can see our clients are thinking really hard in here and they’re maybe having self-doubt and things like that. It’s just so good to get it out. Get it out. Processing. Getting it out, talking, saying it out loud, hearing yourself say it is the first step to processing it as well. So if you’re doing a fear release, don’t just write it down. Write it down. Say it out loud and then burn it. That would be some of my suggestions. And then keep educating yourself. Keep educating yourself. You said tearing, rupture, and these are all valid feelings and fears. I want you to know that. These are all valid and you’re not alone. But yeah. Fearing not progressing, that’s a big fear. I know that. But again, setting yourself up with a great supportive provider who’s going to give you time, trust, and giving you the things you need to progress. That will help. Anything you’d like to add? Julie: No, I love that. I want to get a little bit sciency and nerdy on here. I don’t know. It’s not a secret or anything but I’ve been doing a butt load of therapy over the last year and a half and part of the things that, at some point, I learned this in therapy, but your brain, I think we all know that your emotional brain and your logical brain are in separate parts. They do not touch each other. They do not talk to each other. They do not know what each other has going on, right? Your emotional brain is very reactive and responsive. It’s where a lot of this anxiety comes from. It’s where your fear comes from. It’s where all of your negative feelings live, well, all of your emotions live. All of your big things. Your logical brain doesn’t know what’s going on in your emotional brain. They do not communicate with each other or else we would probably all be a lot more reasonable about our entire lives. In order to process your emotions and reconcile them and get rid of your fears, the best thing you can do like Meagan just said, in lots of different ways, is to get them out there. Get them out. Verbally talking about them, writing them down, talking to a therapist, talking to whoever is a nice, safe space for you. Any safe way that you can get them out of your emotional brain, then your logical brain can say, “Oh. That’s what’s going on over here.” It gives your logical mind a chance to take over and reconcile a lot of these things that are going on and put this emotional brain at ease so they’re not fighting and conflicting. They’re able to reconcile with each other. I don’t know if that makes sense. That’s a big thing for me which is like, “Oh yes. I need to get these things out.” Don’t stuff your emotions down or stuff your feelings down. Get them out and it helps your brain process and work through them together so that you’re not so isolated and your feelings are not so isolated from the other parts of your body that are a lot more logical. Meagan: Yes. Oh my gosh. I love that. Thank you, Julie. Julie: You’re welcome. Meagan: Okay, let’s see. She has been thinking about taking a social media break, actually. It’s really refreshing. Worried about tearing more than uterine rupture. And yeah, tearing is scary. It is scary to think about. Lots of people do tear and it is repairable, but I would say my tip for that would be to really follow your body when it comes time to push whether it be unmedicated or medicated, really listen to your body and when that baby is crowning, just little, little nudges, assuming all is going well and that will help. And then really, baby position, right? We want to work on baby’s position because the more the baby is in an ideal position, the better it is for baby to come out. But sometimes we have these little things where we have babies doing this and sometimes we have babies doing this. Julie: Or doing this. Meagan: Or doing this or they come out like this and they do funny things. Tears happen, but try your hardest and let gravity help. Squatting on your side, positions that may reduce tearing and may focus on centered gravity versus a perfect spot, I don’t know the word that I’m looking for. A specific spot of gravity. Does that make sense? On your back, the bottom of your perineum has more direct pressure than when you’re squatting. It’s more central. So working on positions and even if you have an epidural, you can push on your side. You can push squatting assisted. It’s totally possible. But yeah, anyway. Tearing is scary. Julie: Tearing happens. I love that you said that. Meagan: Tearing happens. It does. I mean, I’m going to be honest. Julie: Most of the time, it’s not that bad. Most of the time. Meagan: No. Julie: I had a first degree with my first VBAC. I didn’t tear with my other two. I heard somebody say once, maybe it was on social media or something recently, but the biggest impact on whether you tear or not and how bad is your provider. Meagan: Yeah. We’ve got providers that just are a little rough. Julie: They force you to push on your back or stretch your perineum out so much. A lot of people think that helps, but it can actually increase your chance of tearing too. I don’t know. But yeah, give that a chance too, and talk to your provider seriously about not pushing on your back. Even with an epidural, you can push on your side. Meagan: Yeah. Totally. Totally. Love it, love it, love it. Okay, any other questions that you are seeing coming in? I love that she was like, “Yeah. People say this and then we just nod and assume they’re scheduling a C-section.” They just nod like, uh-huh. We have a ton of questions coming in on social media, so are you okay if we do a couple more?Julie: Yeah, I just have to grab my kids in 25 minutes, so I’ve got some time. And then I want to wrap up and do a little short catch-up on how I’ve been doing since The VBAC Link. That would be fun, right? Do you think? Meagan: Yeah. Yes. Julie: Okay. Labor expectations Meagan: Okay, so this is from an Instagram follower and she says, “VBAC after a scheduled C-section. Should I expect labor as long as a first-time mom?” Julie: Can you say that again? You broke up just a little bit. Did she say what should I expect as a first-time mom? Meagan: “After a scheduled C-section, should I expect,” assuming she’s going to VBAC, “Should I expect just as long of labor as a first-time mom?” So meaning that she’s scheduled the C-section, never went into labor, never dilated, things like that. In short, yes possibly. Julie: Yes. Meagan: Yes, right? So my VBAC was my third baby, my first real labor. It was kind of freaking long. It was long. But then, we sometimes have moms that had a breech baby and it was a scheduled C-section. They go in, right? Yes. Julie: Pick me, pick me. I’ve got some stories. Meagan: Don’t share her story. Julie: Did she talk to you?Meagan: No, but I’m going to talk to her. Julie: Okay, good. Meagan: So anyway, but sometimes it just goes really fast and we don’t know. So just like a first-time mom, not everyone goes long. Some people are precipitous. Some people can go really long. That can happen too and so yes, maybe is my answer. Okay, let’s see. Julie: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Before you go on. Meagan: Oh, you really wanted me to pick you. I pick you, Julie. Julie: Pick me. Pick me. Pick me. Okay, so I just want to let you know that yeah like Meagan said, you are more likely to labor for longer identical to a first-time mom, but man, sometimes this baby is going to fly out and it’s going to catch you off guard. And I have two stories, I’m not going to tell them, but I have two stories where the labors were super short. Moms got their VBACs at home on their bathroom floors because the labor just catches you off guard so much. Meagan: It can happen. Julie: Plan on going to 42 weeks. Plan on a 24-hour labor because it’s probably not going to be that long, but the more you can, if you expect that, then anything shorter is just going to be encouraging rather than planning on a shorter amount of time and having a longer thing being discouraging. That’s my advice. Double-layer suture versus single-layerMeagan: Yeah, for sure. For sure. Okay, this next question is, “Does the type of suture matter much? I had a single-layer but read that double was better.” Julie: Oh, pick me again. Meagan: Yeah. Julie: Sorry, you’re looking at me. Meagan: I’m looking at you. Julie: All right, so here’s the thing. There used to be a belief that a double-layer suture is, because there are several layers of the uterus, right? The single-layer versus double-layer. A single-layer closure means they sew all of the layers up with one stitch, one suture. Double-layer is where they close it in two separate layers, right? So there used to be a belief that a double-layer suture was safer and would decrease your risk of uterine rupture if you go through vaginal birth, or I guess, overall because you don’t have to go for a vaginal birth to have a rupture. But since then, there have been several studies come out that show that there’s no significant difference in rupture rates between single-layer versus double-layer closures. So, no. It doesn’t make that big of an impact. Now, there has been one recent study that shows that a double-layer closure is optimal, but that one study isn’t very big. It’s not very credible. It’s not as big and not as inclusive as a Cochrane review and things that show that there are not really big differences. So sometimes, people will say, “There’s this one study in 2021 that shows this.” See, probably not in that voice, but anyways. But the majority of information that we have shows that it does not matter. However, ten years ago, people used to think that it would make a big impact. Things have shifted since then. Meagan: Yeah, we still have many providers that say it actually determines eligibility based on that. Like, tons. We get emails all of the time. It’s like, “Hey, I really want a VBAC but I found out that I only have a single-layer suture, so I can’t. Is this true?” So yeah. Okay, ready for the next one? Julie: Yeah. Special scarsMeagan: Low, transverse uterine incision that extends one side vaginally. Vaginally? Can I VBAC? Vaginally? Julie: Vaginally? I wonder if it’s a J? Meagan: That’s what I’m wondering. Julie: Except she said, “Vaginally.”Meagan: I’ve actually never heard of a uterine incision extending all the way. Julie: I don’t think it can. It can go down into the cervix. Meagan: Yeah, the uterus is up and then it has the cervix. It goes like this. Julie: Yeah. Meagan: Yeah, and then that comes down into the vagina, but they’re separate.Julie: I wonder if there’s some word confusion there. Meagan: Maybe. I will ask her, but I’m wondering if this is meaning a special scar. Julie: Well, yeah. Meagan: I’m wondering if maybe there is some confusion about a special scar and yeah. People still VBAC with special scars. They do. We have special scars on the podcast. Julie: Leslie’s is my favorite birth story. She goes into such detail about the data and everything about that. Meagan: Yes, Leslie did a home birth, right? Julie: Yeah, I think it’s episode 18 or something in the teens I think.Meagan: She was really early on. So yes you can. It’s still possible. You still want to educate yourself. Just because you can doesn’t mean you are going to choose to or that you’re going to want to. Julie: Or that you’re going to find a provider that’s going to support you. Meagan: Or that you’re going to find a provider that’s going to support you, and so we encourage everybody to do the research, look at the education. We have some blogs. We talk about special scars in our parent’s course. We have some episodes, so there is information out there for you guys. Julie: Yeah, the risk of rupture is a little bit higher with special scars, so that’s something to consider too, but what an acceptable risk is to you is going to be different for everybody. So I think it goes from about half a percent to maybe 1.2% or something in that range. It’s less than 2% overall, and so is a less than 2% risk of rupture acceptable for you? You’re going to be the only one to answer that. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Julie: Does that make sense? I feel like I didn’t understand the words coming out of my mouth. Meagan: Yeah, no. No, it made sense. Julie: Okay, do you ever do that? Anyways. Warning signs and symptoms for uterine ruptureMeagan: Yes. Okay, next question was, “Warning signs and symptoms for uterine rupture?” This is a really great question because we were talking about that, the fear of uterine rupture, and there are signs. There are, I should say, symptoms. Some of the signs and symptoms may be one, pain. Pain down there and if there’s an epidural in place, it might radiate up. The uterine rupture that I attended a long time ago, she had an epidural and they kept calling it a hot spot, but it was way, can you guys see me? Way up here in her ribs where it was hurting which is kind of an interesting spot, but it was just radiating where she wasn’t numb, where she could feel. So yeah, pain. And also pain that doesn’t go away. Pain and discomfort during a contraction or surge comes and is there, and then it goes away, that may be different than the pain that is there, increases with contractions, doesn’t go away, and is still very intense. Bleeding, lots of bleeding, lots of bleeding. Stall of labor, where your labor is just not progressing. Baby going up, so moving stations, but dramatically. Like your baby was +2 and now your baby is -2. Stations can be subjective, they say their baby is a 0 but now it’s a -1, and they’re saying that maybe it’s a 0 to +1. It’s kind of subjective. Julie: Yeah, they’re just centimeters that we’re talking about with baby’s station. It can vary from provider to provider. Meagan: If you think about my hand to Julie’s hand, right? Our hands are very different. They look different. I have long skinny bony dumb fingers that I can’t stand. Julie: Not dumb. Meagan: Really wide palms, so my long, skinny fingers versus someone with shorter fingers may be different. One of the number one things that providers look for, although I will say that this isn’t always the number one first symptom is fetal heart tones. Fetal heart tones that are just tanking and not recovering, that is a concern. That is a concern and that is a sign. Let’s see, what else am I missing? Julie: I’m trying to think. I think that’s it. Meagan: I think that might be all. Julie: Yeah, and that’s the biggest reason why they’re really particular about continuous fetal monitoring for a VBAC. But yes, if you can feel the head on top of your pubic bone, it’s kind of weird to really describe that, but I’m not going to show you. Meagan: You can usually see it. There’s a bulge. Baby’s not in the right spot.Julie: Yeah. Meagan: We also have a blog on that. So, okay. Are there any other questions in the Facebook group that I’m missing, Julie? Because I’m on Instagram right now. Julie: Let me check. Meagan: This one is, “My C-section was because of failure to descend. Do I still have a chance to VBAC?” Absolutely. Failure to descend means that baby just didn’t come down. A lot of the time, that’s due to positioning, that’s due to more failure to wait and let the baby have time to come down. Just because you’ve reached 10 centimeters doesn’t mean it’s time to have a baby necessarily. Sometimes baby needs to have time to rest and descend and come down, but yes. Absolutely. You guys, on Instagram, if you’re not there, we did pull over. So if you’re over here, yay. If not, then I’m going to try and get these answered on Instagram as well. Do we have any other questions?Julie: I didn’t see any. Yep, nope. Still no. Meagan: Okay, any other final questions for the eight of you that are left? We’d love to finish up, but yeah. While we are waiting for any other final questions, Julie, did you want to update everybody on how the last couple of months have been for you? Julie’s updateJulie: Yeah, I think it was a little bit of a hard transition for both of us. Meagan is doing amazing trucking along, keeping everything going and I’m super excited to see all of the changes and stuff that are going on over on social media and the website and everything like that. I’m really proud of you. You’re doing amazing. Meagan: Thank you. Julie: And welcome the new admin, Katie, helping. She’s doing an amazing job too, it seems like so that is really great. Yeah, I mean, I’ve been trucking along with the birth photography thing. I think we talked about that on the podcast episode where I made the announcement that I was leaving, but it’s been going really good. I’ve been to several, many births since then. Meagan: Tons of births. Julie: Yeah, the last two weeks, I did five and it was actually ten days. It was five in ten days. Two of them, I was a backup for somebody, so it kind of doesn’t really count, but it kind of does. Several of them have been VBACs which have been amazing because I love still being able to be in that space and supporting people. Things are going well and I’m really excited. I do have, it’s a hard and separate feeling. I don’t know how to describe it because I know it was the right choice for me, but it’s also kind of sad at the same time. And so, yeah. I’m excited. I’m glad to still be kind of part of the community and being here in and out with Meagan every once in a while. I’ll pop back in to give an update and talk more. Yeah, I would love it if anybody wants to keep in touch. You can find me on Instagram, I’m just @juliefrancombirth. All one word, you can give me a follow or ask me questions. I’d be happy to talk or answer questions about anything, but I’m just so excited to see The VBAC Link thriving as it is. It makes me happy. I still talk about it. I still say “we” whenever I talk about The VBAC Link. I think it’s going to be a long time before that goes away. But yeah. I’m just proud of you for doing a great job. I’m excited. Life is just busy with other things. Meagan: Just other things, yeah. Julie: I’m able to manage all of my priorities right now instead of having everything halfway. Meagan: Yes, which is important. Julie: Yeah, it is important. What other questions do we have?Meagan: Let’s see. “I had second-degree tears with my VBAC. Unmedicated, no coached pushing. It is still–” Oh, this is probably to comfort. “It was still worlds better than my C-section recovery was.” So yeah, like we were saying, tears happen, but it is a lot less invasive, usually those tears aren’t full tears cutting through all of the layers and things for a C-section. But yeah, I would agree. I didn’t end up tearing necessarily, but it was really tender down there. I just pushed a baby out of my vagina. Julie: A vaginal tear heals up way easier and faster, yeah. Certain parts of your body are more inclined to heal faster. Meagan: Yeah. Julie: But then, Tiffany asked, what’s the podcast name, and your Instagram? So obviously people listening and you replied there, but I want to say it for people listening. Obviously, if you’re listening to the podcast, you already know what the podcast name is, but it’s just The VBAC Link podcast just like our Facebook group. See? There I go again with “our.” We’re on Instagram and everywhere. The VBAC Link on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube. There’s a Twitter. I don’t think we’ve tweeted in a really long time, but anywhere you want to find The VBAC Link, you just search. They are on so many platforms. Same with all of the podcast hosts, any major podcast platform or you can listen on thevbaclink.com/podcast. Meagan: Yeah, we’re everywhere. Instagram, all of the places. Yeah, and then like Julie said, Julie Francom Birth if you want to still follow Julie and her journey. We’re all supportive. I have a doula business. It’s Tiny Blessings Doula Services. You can see what we’re up to on the other side. But we really appreciate everybody. I think that’s all of the questions. We really appreciate everybody for coming on today, and dealing with our 34-minute delay. Julie: That sucked. Meagan: Because we knew there was one setting. We knew it had to be in the group, but we figured it out. Julie: But we figured it out. Meagan: That’s what matters. Julie: That’s what matters. Meagan: This has been really fun. So let us know if you really like this, this live podcasting, because that might be something fun that we can do here in the future in this amazing group. So yeah. As always, we love you. We thank you. Love any other reviews that you want to leave. You can email us if you have any other further questions at [email protected]. Instagram, Facebook, you can drop it still down in this, it’s going to be I think it will be in there. So yeah. We love you. Thank you so much. And Julie, I’ve missed you. Julie: I know. Gosh, it’s been so weird. Meagan: It is. Julie: So weird, and yeah. All of the feelings. Meagan: Yeah, but I’m really happy for you and we’re having fun over here at The VBAC Link still. We’ve got Katie helping out, so you guys will probably see Katie’s husband flipping around on Facebook. Julie: That was fun. Meagan: Or her cute face. She’s a cute little blonde so you’ll see her and you’ll see more of me as well. We’re really excited. Thank you so much for being with us today and mwah. We love you a lot.   ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“I hope I give you some hope.”All around, Lauren’s stories are different. Her birthing journey includes Asherman’s syndrome, infertility for over 10 years, two rounds of IVF treatments (each with only one viable embryo), a miscarriage, placenta accreta, and significant hemorrhaging after her first Cesarean delivery. Lauren miraculously got pregnant naturally with her second son. She was committed to having a VBAC even with her complicated medical history. When her water broke at 32 weeks, Lauren made her desires known loud and clear to every person who entered her birthing space that a Cesarean was not an option. Sure enough, Lauren was able to successfully VBAC with no signs of placenta accreta or hemorrhaging. After years of so much heartache and holding onto hope, Lauren was finally able to see one miracle unfold after another.Additional linksThe VBAC Link Community on FacebookHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, whatever time it is where you are at, welcome. You are listening to The VBAC Link podcast. This is Meagan and we have our friend, Lauren, today. You guys, she is currently in Vietnam and it is 4:10 a.m. where she is recording. I cannot believe that she is up and ready to record an episode. We are so grateful for her for being with us today. She has a lot of great things in her story, a lot of great things that sometimes we don’t talk about or know of. There’s a certain thing in her story where I hadn’t even ever heard the word before until I saw it in her story. So I can’t wait to dive into her story and have her tell more about all of the things about her story.Review of the WeekMeagan: Of course, we have a Review of the Week so I will read that and we will dive right in. This is from saraalbinger and she says, “One month ago, I had a successful VBAC induction just 18 months after a Cesarean section. I almost called to schedule a repeat on my due date because I was so scared. Then I found your podcast and listened to it for two days straight. It gave me the courage to go through with the induction and I am so glad I did. I hope more people find this as a resource.”She actually emailed us, which is awesome. Congratulations, Sara, on your VBAC. So happy for you. Like I said, she emailed. You can email us your reviews if you would like or if you have a moment, maybe push “pause” really quickly and jump onto your podcast whether it be Apple or Google Play, and leave us a review. We would really appreciate it and again, we always read one on the episodes, so your review might be next. Lauren’s storyMeagan: Okay. Lauren, I’m so excited to have you. Seriously, I cannot believe that you are up. I don’t know if I could get my tushy out of bed at 4:00 a.m. to record a podcast. I’m so grateful. Lauren: It is early. Meagan: Yes, it is so early. Oh my gosh. We just talked about it. You just had a baby not long ago, so you’re not only up at 4:00 a.m. but probably sleep-deprived within those few hours that you did get to sleep. So seriously, thank you so much for being with us today.  Lauren: No problem, I’m excited to share my story. Meagan: Well, I’m excited to hear it. I would love to turn the time over to you. Share all of the amazing things. You have had such a journey that has led you here today. Lauren: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for having me. This is a wonderful opportunity for me to go back and remember what has happened to me over the last couple of years. My story started, I feel like, way back when. I was a Montessori teacher and at that point, I knew exactly what I wanted out of my birth at the age of 18 or 19 years old. I wanted a water birth. I wanted all-natural and I wanted to have all my kids by the time I was 25. Anyways, that didn’t happen. I got married. I got married when I had just turned 23. Kids did not happen right away. My 25th birthday was the most depressing birthday I’ve ever had. It turns out I was struggling with some infertility there. At that time, I had sought some, I don’t know. I will tell you that I pondered on it and it just didn’t feel right. The time to take care of our infertility didn’t feel right, so we ended up moving our family abroad. My husband and I taught English abroad, then we came back to America. We just so happened to live in Boston. We had some contacts there, but we felt, I don’t know the right word, we felt very inspired to move to Boston. We didn’t start working on the family thing right away because you have to have insurance for that but on the east coast, they pay for infertility treatment. If you have insurance, it’s covered. I didn’t know that at the time. Meagan: That’s amazing. For real?Lauren: Yes, for real.  Meagan: I need to tell my sister who just moved to Boston and is having fertility issues. Lauren: Oh my goodness. Yes, the insurance coverage is amazing. So then I started finding out about other people who had moved there just to get the insurance just to seek infertility treatment. Meagan: Wow, cool. Lauren: Yeah, it was amazing. Exactly. I feel like the right people were put in our path at the right time. They shared the doctors and I was like, “Okay, let me go to your doctor. Okay.” So then pieces started to fall into place to figure out, “What the heck is wrong with me?” I think it had been thirteen years at that point in time of not stopping from having children. Everything was the way it is. So I go and they do this huge check-up on me. My doctors just couldn’t believe the long list of all the crap that was wrong with me especially because I was in my thirties.I ended up having what was called Asherman syndrome. It’s adhesive. It’s scar tissue and they can exist in the cervix or in the uterus. Mine was everywhere. I was 100% scarred over through my cervix and my uterus. It took multiple surgeries to try to remove it. It’s called hysteroscopies. Here’s the miracle here. Asherman syndrome is not well known. It’s still, “Oh, hush-hush.” A lot of women hear the word “adhesive” and that’s exactly what it is. It’s the scar tissue that’s in the uterus and it usually happens after D&C or if you’ve had a miscarriage, there’s a percentage of women who scar over. There are specific doctors out there that will take care of it. One is in Boston and the other one lives in California. I got to see that very specialized doctor and that was just a huge miracle. I felt like I was being taken care of. So we went there and my scar tissue was just so severe. I’m pretty sure I still have it. It’s something that doesn’t really go away, but it was blocking my tubes. That, and we had a diminished ovarian reserve, so my eggs were like I was a 44-year-old woman. I think I was 32 at this time and going through all this. I’m like, “My eggs are old. I’m old.”Then they did a biopsy of my uterus. It showed that it was inactive.Meagan: What?Lauren: It was menopausal. I was like, “So I’ve gone through menopause and here I am.” It turns out that if you don’t have a period for over a year, you’re considered in menopause. I didn’t realize that because I hadn’t had one in seven years at this point. Meagan: Wow. I didn’t even know that either. I mean, I didn’t have a period but I have an IUD, so I’m guessing that’s a little different, right? Lauren: Mhmm, yeah. Meagan: I didn’t know that. Lauren: Yeah, I had no idea. I was learning so much so quickly. There were a lot of emotions. I cried and cried because I felt like my journey of having children was completely over. I had a very slim chance of having a baby and so I was like, “Okay. We’re doing this. I’m jumping head-in.” So I jumped and with IVF, I had only one good embryo out of my first round. It ended up in a miscarriage. It was nonviable and it ended up that it had something wrong with the chromosomes in it. They did some testing. This is where I feel like, “Oh, I had this journey.” Here it comes now. With IVF, they watch you and so after my two-week wait, I had a positive test. Okay. Then, they watch it grow. Mine wasn’t growing, so then I had my ultrasound. They were like, “Oh, this isn’t right. There is no heartbeat. This doesn’t even look right. Whatever.” I’m bawling my eyes out because it’s really hard.They waited an extra week until I was seven weeks when I went in for my D&E. The doctor told me it was because of my Asherman’s that it was going to cause a huge, big problem. So he goes in. He scoops it out. That’s the way I like to think of it. He just scoops it out and he’s done. Lo and behold, my HCG levels were still the same, if not going up. I was still feeling very sick. The next two or three days later, I’m like, “Something is really wrong. Something is really wrong.” I went back and they drew my blood. Come to find out, my levels are still going up. I’m like, “Something is wrong.” I went back to my Asherman syndrome doctor. They did an ultrasound and then they did an in-office, I was wide awake, hysteroscopy. They took little scissors and they tried to go in and take out what they could see. Meagan: What?! This is giving me chills right now thinking about going through that. Lauren: Uh-uh. It was so painful. Meagan: Oh my goodness.Lauren: It was so bad. I’m just bawling my eyes out on this table and they were like, “This is too much.” I was like, “Yeah. This is too much.” I was scheduled for surgery the next day and that’s when I was told about my accreta. That teeny, tiny little sac had grown into my lining. Again, my Asherman’s syndrome was worse than the first time I went, which is saying something. I had a few more surgeries after that one just to clean it up. It took a long time, a lot of hormone therapy, and a ton of estrogen to try to get my uterus back up and running. They called it “jump starting” because I was still not having periods. They were forcing them through medication. Anyway, it was just a crazy time of my life. The second round of IVF was maybe six to nine months later. Again, I only had one little embryo. It turned out to be my son. At the time, we didn’t know the sex of our child until he was born, so it was a really fun surprise. I was so excited. Well, and surely hesitant because you are like, “Oh my goodness, is this going to stick? What’s going to happen?” He stuck and he continued to grow. His percentile growths every ultrasound were still 13% and 15%, so I had a small baby. It always worried me. We got flagged for genetic testing. We got flagged and we got called. It was like, “You’ve got to come in right now. We’ve got to do this ultrasound.” The worry that comes over your face is like, “Oh my gosh.” You just start breaking down and immediately crying. We drove straight to the hospital to do a two-hour-long ultrasound of just laying on the table. They don’t talk to you, by the way, in this clinic. They just look. They look. They look. They look, and then at the very end, they may say something or you have to go to your doctor and your doctor will tell you but the ultrasound tech does not say anything to you.So it’s just nerve-wracking. We ended up seeing a genetic counselor right after who then gave us the results of, “Oh, it’s not anything. You’re fine.” You had a little bit of leakage that could have caused this. It’s not Down syndrome. You’re okay. I was like, “Whew.” So other than that, my pregnancy was pretty normal. We got a doula right away, super grateful for her, and then my baby just wouldn’t turn. He wanted to be feet down. I don’t know how to explain it. He just wanted to be breech. We were doing our birthing classes. I just remember the doula who was doing them was like, “Well,” I don’t know I was probably at 30 weeks. She was like, “Oh, he should really be head down.” I’m like, “Really? At this point, he should really be?” She was like, “Yeah. You really need to get on it more.” I was like, “Okay, I need to get on it.” At that point, I was like, “Okay.” So my doula and I worked on Spinning Babies. I spent so much time upside down every day. I was on an ironing board. I was doing all of these things for Spinning Babies. You buy the stuff. All of the stuff, I bought it. It wasn’t working, so then someone was like, “Okay, you should go to the acupuncturist and do this epoxy–”. I was like, “Okay.” So then I’m burning this thing on the outside of my pinky toe on my right foot for 20 minutes. Meagan: Mhmm. Bladder 06.Lauren: Yeah, but I’m very pregnant, so to bend over for 20 minutes to do one toe and to do 20 minutes on the other toe was excruciating. I did it every morning and every night. I was like, “Okay. This is a lot. I am very dedicated to spinning this baby.” That didn’t work, so I started chiropractic. I started seeing a chiropractor during my last month of pregnancy. I saw her every other day, and then I started seeing her every day. Again, nothing, and then I just got this gut feeling. It was, “Your baby’s going to be born the way he needs to be born. You just need to accept that and you need to go with it.” When that happened, it just clicked in my brain. I was like, “Okay. I can still have a birth plan for a Cesarean. I can still do this and that’s okay.” But that switch when you have planned something and you believe in something so hard– to make that switch in your brain, it’s so difficult. I still was holding hope that somehow this baby is going to flip. They wanted to try an inversion at 37 weeks. I was like, “No,” because they were like, “If you spin the baby in the hospital and it works, then you are having a baby. If it doesn’t work, you are still having a baby.” I was like, “Oh, then I’m waiting.” I’m very grateful. So we went in on my scheduled day with my big, long list of everything I wanted for my Cesarean which was wonderful. My doctor was very supportive and she made sure everything on my list got crossed off. I got to completely watch my baby being born, the surgery, and everything which was really unique for me. I didn’t realize I was going to get emotional about my little Oden. Anyway, I just remember laying there and having my surgery. My husband was right beside me and my doula was also in the room with her essential oils. He comes out and it was announced that he was a little boy. He gets cleaned up. My husband goes over. My husband gets to do skin-to-skin with him. It was such a beautiful birth. It’s like, I don’t regret it at all. I’m just like, “I did everything I could.” Once you see that little baby, he was just, oh wow. He was on my husband’s chest and he was rooting and making rooting noises. My doctor and everyone in the room just stopped. They were like, “We’ve never seen this before.” We’ve never seen a baby come out Cesarean and literally be banging his head on a chest wanting the breast. I knew right away. I was like, “That’s my baby. He’s hungry. He knows where it’s at.” My doula was really excited. So anyways, I remember at this point that my doctor mentioned something about blood. “Oh, there’s a lot of blood,” but I was dismissive because I had this cute baby over here rooting. It wasn’t even until after I was in recovery and I started breastfeeding that my doctor came in and told me that I had hemorrhaged. I had an MFM who specialized in accreta and percreta and all of these things because I was just so worried that if I had a seven-week sac that stuck to my uterus, then what is it going to look like at full-term? I had done all of this research and I was prepared to lose my uterus with this birth. It didn’t happen. I just felt so blessed. I felt so blessed that I got to keep it and that my child was born at full term. I just remember, “I can’t wait for baby number two.” Anyway, I enjoyed this birth so much and him so much. The hemorrhage only added to my list. I had forgotten about it until baby number two and then it starts adding on, right?Okay, miscarriage, baby number one, baby number two comes and I really wanted my VBAC. I don’t necessarily– my pregnancy was baby number two. I had accepted a job that paid for my insurance and I was going to go back to my doctors, but I ended up getting pregnant before. I mentioned before that I stopped having periods sometime in my twenties and went through menopause. I had gotten the COVID vaccine and gotten both shots. After my second shot, 17 days later, I started the first period I had in years and years and years and years and years and years. I was so shocked. I had no idea what was happening to my body. I was like, “This can’t be happening to me. This is so weird and so foreign to me.” I remember just calling my doctor like “What is going on?” She was like, “You are not the only woman to report this. It’s okay, just go with it. Track it. Let’s see if we can have a natural pregnancy. Let’s see if you can get pregnant naturally.” I’m like, “Wow. This is insane.” So, in the third month, I was pregnant. I just couldn’t believe it. Meagan: Wow. Lauren: I’m like, “But my eggs are crap.”Meagan: Wow, wow. Lauren: Yeah! I’m like, “My eggs are crap. Everything is crap, right?” She’s like, “Lauren, we are just going to go with it.” I’m just like, “Okay. Just going with it.” So yeah. Third month, boom, and I was pregnant. And yeah, wow. But it started off–Meagan: I’m sure. Yeah. Lauren: You just don’t believe it. After you’ve been through everything, you don’t believe it. So I just couldn’t believe it. I started having a lot of pain and this is where I was like, “I’m going to lose this baby.” I just had this gut feeling like something was really wrong. I ended up going to the emergency room the day I took a pregnancy test. I was going. I was like, “It had better not be ectopic. I need to make sure this is in the right place. There’s something going on.” They’re like, “You’re not pregnant.” That’s what they told me. I was like, “Okay.” This little, dinky hospital. They did a urine test and they told me I wasn’t pregnant. I literally had to tell them, “Listen. I’ve been through infertility treatment and I know that you could do a blood test to tell me if I’m pregnant or not. Come on.” And so then they do a blood test but in the meantime, it’s been an hour and I’m a mess. I am crying. I am just an emotional, crazy mess. They come back and they’re like, “Oh yeah, your levels are 100, so most likely, you’re going to lose this baby. It’s very early.” They already put this on me. So then they gave me a doctor because I am new to this facility because, sorry. I had moved from Boston to Connecticut to work and buy a house during the pandemic. So I am in little Podunkville with Podunk doctors. There’s nothing wrong with Podunk doctors, sorry! But it’s just different when you go from downtown Boston, top-notch to country, okay?So we were there and he kept telling me that my levels weren’t rising. They weren’t doubling. They are supposed to double and they weren’t. Baby wasn’t growing and nothing was happening for two weeks. So they did an ultrasound, but no heartbeat, nothing. There was something there, but they were like, “Lauren, we will give you another week before we do something.” I’m just a mess. I’m a complete mess. They drew my blood again and my progesterone levels were decent, but my pregnancy hormone was just not growing.And so a week or two weeks went by, I can’t remember. I had a heartbeat. I just remember feeling so relieved. I looked at the doctor. I was like, “I’m never going to see you again. I’m so sorry, but I’m never going to see you again. I’m going to go to the best of the best.” So I jumped right back to my MFM up in Boston. The first thing out of my mouth was, “Okay, I’m pregnant. Will you support me with a VBAC?” And she said, “Yes.” She said, “Yes, 100%.” This was the kicker. She was like, “But Lauren, you have to know that because of all your issues, we are aiming for a vaginal birth. You can’t sit there and go, ‘I want it to be unmedicated.’” She was like, “What we are aiming for is a vaginal birth.”I was like, “Okay.” And then I go home, I’m like, “I want an unmedicated birth!” I’m like, “I don’t care.”Meagan: You’re like, “Joke’s on you guys, I’m going to do that anyway.”Lauren: Yes, exactly. So my pregnancy is progressing. Baby is head down the whole entire time. I’m super excited. I remember at 28 weeks, I had this very distinct feeling come over me that I was going to have this baby early. I didn’t know what that meant. So I was like, “Okay.” So around week 30, I started prepping my house. I bought all of the baby things, got baby things out, just little things like that. In the meantime, I’m teaching kindergarten, I’m still working full time. I still have a toddler now and I’m just resuming life.This is when I really started hitting hard on The VBAC Link. I was listening to every podcast every chance I got. I was listening on my lunch break just to prepare myself. I did a class with you guys. There was an OB that was there. I had a ton of questions that I got answered, so that was really wonderful. I just really appreciate this podcast being there. I feel like that’s why I really want to share because it was just so helpful, but no one had anything like what I had gone through. I’m like, “Maybe that means something.” I’m like, “Am I crazy? Can I do this?” sort of a thing. Anyway, so I didn’t feel very prepared. My 32-week doctor’s appointment was on a Friday. I drove to Boston which was an hour and a half away from where I live. It was a devastating doctor’s visit. My sweet little baby boy was not growing. I had what is called, I have it in here because I’m like, “What? I forget everything.” It was fetal growth restriction.Meagan: Was it IUGR? Intrauterine growth restriction?Lauren: Yeah, but they called it FGR here. It was like fetal growth restriction, yes. Meagan: FGR, fetal growth restriction, yeah. Lauren: Thank you for that. I forget all of the things. And so then I was like, “Okay. Tell me exactly what that means.” My baby was measuring in the 1st percentile. So then she goes back and she was like, “Well, he’s barely been over a 10th percentile this whole time. He’s always been very, very small.” He was in the 10th and the 13th. I was like, “Where do we need to be to get out of this?” She was like, “You have to be at 10% to not have this label.” I was like, “That’s not going to happen, is it?” She was like, “No, I’m sorry.” And I’m like, “Oh man.”So at this point in time, I was like, “Okay.” I was visiting her every week. I had her visit plus I had a blood draw, plus I had an ultrasound, so now it was moving up to three visits a week and I was having to drive an hour and a half. I’m like, “This is not going to be sustainable. I cannot work full time and do this.” I had made all of my appointments for that next week. I go home that Friday and then Saturday morning at 3:00, my toddler wakes up and I go in to tend to him. A big thing about FGR was that I had to count my movements. I wasn’t feeling my baby move because he was so small that there were times that I didn’t feel pregnant. I was like, “This is really weird.” It was one of those times when I was up at 3:00 a.m. and I noticed that there were zero movements. I’m like, “Okay, maybe he’s asleep.” So I spent time with my toddler, put him back to bed, go back to my room and I’m starting to feel him move. So then I start kick counting, kick counting, kick counting, and then my toddler gets up again. I’m like, “Oh my goodness, you’ve got to be kidding me.” He comes into my room. He wants to snuggle, so I let him in my bed and he’s holding me. I’m holding him and my husband gets out of bed. He doesn’t do that. Anyway, next thing I know, I just feel this gush between my legs and I’m like, “What the heck? I am not prepared for this. This is not okay.” We have Google in my home, so I was like, “Okay, Google. Broadcast.” I’m screaming at the top of my lungs, “My water just broke! You have to come right now!” My husband runs in and he’s freaking out. I don’t know. It was a really wacky picture in my mind. He has his arms and legs sprawled out like, “What’s going on?” I’m like, “Take our son. Take our son and get me a cup because this is gushing out and I don’t know what to do.” It was crazy. I started contracting, but they weren’t painful at all. They were like Braxton Hicks. My belly was tightening and then it was just gushes of water. I was like, “This is so crazy.”So I immediately called my doctor. This was the part that made me nervous because here I am preparing for a VBAC and the doctor immediately said, “You need to get to the hospital right now. You will have a repeat Cesarean and we will get this baby out. Something is wrong.” Meagan: Whoa. Lauren: I immediately started crying. Yes. Meagan: Scary. So scary. Lauren: Oh, 100%. The good thing is that I had 40 minutes for someone to drive to be with my son to ponder, sit down, and try to process this. Meanwhile, I’m walking around the house with a cup between my legs trying to catch all the water that is coming out of me. My husband and I were talking back and forth like, “This is not anything I had ever ever ever thought of.” I’m like, “Okay. I’m going to go in. I’m going to have a VBAC.” And so we both agreed that we were going to be open to what the doctors were saying. “This a bunch of learning. We are on a learning curve now. This is not on our terms. It’s on this baby’s terms. We are now open-minded and learning.” It took us an hour and nine minutes to get to the hospital. We passed five policemen. One actually passed us. We were way speeding. We were easily doing 90-100 the whole way. No one pulled us over, thank goodness. It turned out to not be that much of an emergency. We got there and the first thing that they did was they took me back to confirm that I broke my water. I was like, “You guys can’t see the stuff gushing out of me?” I’m like, “Is this not water?” They’re like, “Well, it could be urine.” I was like, “No, no, no, no, no.” I know what urine is. This is not urine. They were laughing because I was like, “This is not pee, or else I have been continually peeing on myself for two and a half hours now.”And so anyway, I’m like, “Okay, whatever.” And then they were like, “Yes. Okay. This is the fluid.” They came to my room and they talked to me about everything. PPROM is what it’s called. It’s a premature rupture of membranes. Now, I was a PPROM. Meagan: Yeah. PROM is just premature rupture of membranes but PPROM is premature meaning that the baby is before 37 weeks. Lauren: Exactly. Meagan: Premature premature rupture of membranes. Lauren: It was happening way too early. And because I was 32 weeks, they weren’t going to stop it, so I did not receive any magnesium or anything like that to stop it which I was kind of grateful for because after I read, I was like, “Oh, I don’t want that in my body.” It burns like fire. But they did start me on penicillin and steroids and all of these things because they wanted the steroids for the baby’s lungs. The penicillin was because the risk of infection goes significantly higher when you have PPROMd or when you have PROM’d early because now I’m just sitting there with open stuff and it’s easier to get an infection.They refused to check me, which was nice. They would not check my cervix to see how dilated I was or anything like that, but I do remember at the very beginning, she guesstimated that I was about a 1, so it was nothing. And so I sat there. They were like, “You’re being admitted to the hospital. You will be here until you have your baby. Since you are 32 weeks, we will induce you. If you get to 34 weeks, you will be induced and you will have your baby.” The reality was that they go through my chart and this is where my past kicked me in the butt. They were like, “Okay, you have a chance of accreta. You have hemorrhaged with your previous Cesarean. You have to put in your mind that most likely you are going to have another Cesarean.” I was like, “No, I’m not.” This whole entire time, I was like, “No, I’m not.” I was like, “No, I’m not. I’m having a VBAC and that’s it.” I kept telling every doctor that came into my room. I was like, “Listen, I’m having a VBAC.” I was like, “I’m having a VBAC. It’s happening, so I don’t even want to discuss another Cesarean unless it really gets to that point. I don’t want to discuss it.” I was like, “I want to discuss how I can have this baby vaginally. That’s what I want.” They were very supportive. I’m just so grateful and they were just like, “Yeah. Okay. This is awesome. This woman has opinions.” And so every new resident– I was at Brigham and Women’s Hospital. Sorry, I don’t know if I’m allowed to say that.Meagan: You can totally share. You can totally share. Lauren: Okay. Okay, so it’s a learning hospital. You have a lot of residents and interns. I don’t know exactly what you call them all. Every morning, there were ten doctors that would visit my room a few times a day. It was a lot of doctors. Anyway, so Wednesday comes and before that, they were like, “Okay, listen. You’re either going to have this baby within 48 hours or it’s going to be a week or two. It’s either one or the other. We don’t really have people in the middle.”Guess what? I was in the middle, so whatever. Meagan: Way to be different.Lauren: Right? All around, I’m different. The thing that really worried me is that I was like, “Okay, I want a VBAC,” but at the same time, I had these NICU doctors who were right there on my case like, “Okay. Here are the chances of this. Here are the chances of this. Your baby might be dealing with all of these different things.” Anyway, they were updating me every day on where my baby’s development was for that day and what could be possibly wrong with him when he was born. “Oh, by the way, our NICU is full. We don’t have any beds. So if you go into labor, we will be transferring you to a different hospital with your child,” or however it works. I’m like, “What? Are you serious?” They’re like, “Yep. We’re full and so is the hospital next to us, so it will be the hospital down the street.” I’m like, “Oh wow. This is incredible.” Anyway, so right then and there, I started praying, “Okay. Listen to me. If I’m going to go into labor, it better be the day that someone gets sent home.” It’s got to work out. It’s got to work out. It did, by the way. It worked out. On Wednesday, I started to have more pain. It was like, “Okay. I’m still contracting by the way. I keep having what I call Braxton Hicks contractions because they were not painful. It was just that my whole belly would tighten and my water would continue to spew out. That’s the best way I can say it. I remember distinctly that I woke up at 1:00 in the morning on Wednesday and I started having pain. I called my nurse right away and I was like “Listen, they shifted. My contractions have shifted now, but they are still 10-14 minutes apart.” We just kept an eye on it. In the meantime, every time I have a contraction, my baby’s heart disappears. They can’t find him. I’m like, “Okay. Baby, cut this out.” So when that happens, guess what they start talking about? They talk about a Cesarean. They’re like, “Oh, Lauren. His heart rate is really dipping really low. We are going to end up. You need to prepare.” I’m like, “Nope. I’m not preparing.” And so I finally get up out of my bed. I’ve been in a bed this whole entire time. A friend came and visited me. It was 1:00 in the afternoon at this point. I was standing up during the whole visit which was the most I had stood in two or three days. I’m starting to have regular contractions. They were easy, 4-6 minutes apart, somewhere around there. They started being really painful and I had to breathe through them. I’m this way. I’m like, “Listen. I’m not going to call my nurse in here because she’s just going to prepare me for a Cesarean.” So I go for an hour with my friend and my friend is like, “Lauren, you really need to call your nurse.” I’m like, “Fine. You leave. I’ll call my nurse.” So I called my nurse and, sorry I’m laughing. She’s freaking out because she is like, “Why didn’t you call me?” I was like, “Listen, I didn’t call you because I don’t want to have a Cesarean.” They called the doctor. He guesstimates and he says I’m about a 1 or a 2. I haven’t changed much. Now, they have increased and they’re back to back. I could not. I was like, “What? A natural birth? I wanted that? That’s crazy.” They wouldn’t let me out of my bed because of the heart rate and everything that was going on with the baby, so I was stuck and confined to my bed. I was just holding the railing and turned to my side. Every contraction was worsened by a million because my nurse was like, “Listen, if you don’t want a Cesarean, I have to find the heart rate of this baby.” And so she is literally, in the middle of my contractions, I’m screaming and she has got that monitor and she is searching for the baby’s heart rate to prove that he is okay. This continues and she calls the doctor back in here because my contractions were literally on top of each other for 2-3 minutes. It was so intense. I really didn’t feel like I had time to breathe. I was like, “Listen. I am having this baby. I am going to have this baby.” My doctor– he’s not really my doctor. He’s the resident of my doctor. He walks back in and he basically tells me to suck it up and that lots of moms go through this. I’m not having this baby. He will check me for real this time. So he goes in and I’m about 3 centimeters dilated, but I’m 90% effaced. He was like, “Oh. Hmm. This could change. We’re going to send you to labor and delivery, but don’t put it in your mind that you’re having a baby today because this could stall.” He was like, “I’ve seen this stall so many times.” I was like, “How would this stall? I’m in so much pain.” He was like, “No. This could still stall.” I’m like, “Okay, whatever. I’ve PPROMd. I have no idea what I’m talking about. This is all new to me. Okay, fine. This can stall. This labor can stall, sure. Okay.”I am put in labor and delivery and my labor nurse looks at me. She was like, “You’re going to be having this baby in a couple of hours. I don’t know what your doctor is talking about.” She is bad-mouthing him so hard. She’s like, “I don’t know what he’s talking about. This is insane.” She was like, “Listen, I know. I don’t want you to be infected,” but she was like, “I am going to check you right now. There is no way that with the amount of pain you are in and your contractions are on top of each other.” She was like, “I’m going to check you. I’m going to call the anesthesiologist. We’re going to get him in here. We’re going to get you an epidural,” because I was in so much pain. Anyway, I can’t believe it. This is where I’m like, “I wanted a natural birth?” So my anesthesiologist comes in right after my doctor had come in again to check me. He was like, “It’s only been 30 minutes. Stop paging me.” Those were his exact words. “Stop paging me. It’s only been 30 minutes.” And now, I’ve progressed to a 5. His eyes got really wide because before that, he yelled at my anesthesiologist, “You’re not needed here. You need to leave. This is not happening,” like that. My nurse was like, “What?!”And then he checked me and he was like, “Umm, this is happening. I’m so sorry. Anesthesiologist, please come back in the room.” He’s yelling, “Please come back into the room. Help her! This is happening and it’s happening very, very fast.” They were like, “Where’s your husband?” I was like, “Oh my gosh, my husband’s not with me.” At this point, I’m panicking. He’s not even with me.Meagan: Oh no!Lauren: Yeah and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, I’ve got to call him right now.” They were like, “Call him.” So I call him. I was like, “Listen, I know I called you an hour ago and things were progressing slowly, but you have to be here now.” He was like, “Lauren, I’ve got an hour and a half.” I was like, “Permission to speed. Permission to put your cute little sports car to work. Go fast.” He was there in 45 minutes. He showed up. They were like, “Hold the baby.” There are the funniest things that you remember. It’s like, “Okay.” My epidural half-worked. I was still having pain, but it was this weird floating area of, “I can feel pain on my left side, but not on my right side,” and so it was this weird state of where I was. I’m actually kind of grateful for it because I still got that natural birth feeling that I wanted. I still very much felt the ring of fire and the birth and at the same time, I feel like the hard contractions were taken away.So it was a nice in-between that I felt. But as soon as my husband got there, my labor nurse was like, “Listen, Lauren. I just need to tell you that because of your long list,” here it comes again, “because of this long list, you might end up with a Cesarean. I want you to know that they are preparing for it.” This time now, I’m uncontrollably crying because this is not what I wanted. She was like, “I need to also tell you something else.” I was like, “What?” She was like, “There are going to be probably 12-15 people in this room as you give birth.” I was like, “What? How many people?”Meagan: Why? Why so many people?Lauren: Exactly, because it was a learning hospital. Meagan: Oh, okay. Lauren: My doctor had his two doctors and my labor nurse had three assistants, and then I had the NICU team for the baby, and that’s what it was. So I had the NICU doctor plus his three assistants or residents, and then they brought people in to watch me have this VBAC after accreta and after hemorrhaging. I wanted to be fully present for this birth. I told the nurse, “I want to grab my baby and I want to pull my baby out. That’s what I want. I want to pull him out. I want him out on my chest.” They were like, “Lauren, the realization of that happening– if he cries, sure. If he doesn’t cry, we are so sorry. We have to take him. We have to.” I’m praying. Long story short, the baby comes straight out. I mean, he’s 4 pounds. They estimated him to be 3 pounds, but he was 4 pounds. He comes out. I got to watch the whole thing with the mirror. I had one of those resident people taking pictures the whole time, so I got really good pictures of my birth and here he is. He’s screaming, so he has healthy lungs. I was just so happy that he had healthy lungs. I was like, “Okay. We’re good.” Anyway, I got to hold him for about one minute while we did delayed cord clamping, and then I had to hand him over. I didn’t get to see him again for hours and hours which was really hard, but I had done it. I had done it and I had my VBAC. It was successful. I’m just so grateful through my whole entire story that it had gone the way I really wanted it to go. I feel like I was prepared for so many things. Right after he was born, they were like, “Okay, the placenta is not stuck, Lauren. There’s no accreta. Check. Lauren, you’re not hemorrhaging. Check. Now, we just have to stitch you up.” I remember him taking way too long to stitch me up, but I just remember what I always wanted. I was able to jump out of my bed. The epidural got turned off and I was able to get up and start walking within an hour and a half. That’s the whole reason for me. I want this vaginal birth, but I want to be present whereas, for my Cesarean, it took me almost a full 12-24 hours before I could really get out of my bed. It’s just very different and I’m very grateful. I’m very grateful for the information that I received through this podcast to help me get the birth story that I wanted. I’m hoping that my story can help some of you out there that are listening that maybe struggle with infertility and any of the same things I did. I hope I give you some hope. Meagan: Yes. Oh my gosh. So many miracles in your story. So many miracles.Lauren: So many. Meagan: From moving to Boston and finding the doctor that you did find because that in itself, there are so few doctors out there who even know much about this, and then to go through all that you did to get pregnant and then trusting that, “Okay. This baby is just wanting to be this way and this is the journey.” And then again, not getting pregnant and what a crazy thing that all of a sudden, you are pregnant after months and then years!Lauren: Mhmm. They did a pathology. They did testing on my placenta to see why this all happened and why I PPROMd. It was because, I don’t even know what they are called, but the placenta has the phalanges that attach to the uterus and it pumps the vitamins and nutrients in. Mine were scarred over and adhesive. They had adhesives and they were swollen. He wasn’t getting the proper nutrition that he needed, which was why he came early. I can’t help but think, “Oh, maybe that’s my Asherman’s.” They tell me it’s because of COVID because I had COVID.Meagan: That’s another question I was going to ask. Have you had COVID? From what I have heard, even the vaccine, which is interesting how yours is linked to the opposite with starting your period. They are saying that COVID vaccines are related to changing cycles and things like that. But sometimes, if they get the vaccine, then they go into premature labor. We’ve been seeing a lot of people get COVID and then their placentas are just like, “Hey, I’m done,” and they send the message to the body that they need to have a baby. I’m curious. Maybe it’s a little bit of all of it. I don’t know. COVID stuff is all a mystery. It’s all very a fascinating thing.Lauren: Well, I’ll tell you that the NICUs are definitely full. The doctors are definitely telling people that it’s because of COVID that so many of these women are having early, premature births. Meagan: So interesting. How long before did you have COVID?Lauren: I had COVID at Christmas and I PPROM’d in late February. He was born on February 23rd. Meagan: Crazy, so a couple of months. Lauren: A month and a half-ish. Meagan: Yeah. Interesting. So interesting. Well, I am so grateful for you for getting up at not even dawn, for getting up in the middle of the night to share your beautiful stories with us. We are so happy for you and grateful for you. I will promise you this. You are going to touch someone out there. I know you will. Lauren: Thanks. I really appreciate that and again, thank you so much for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“Being pregnant in general is the biggest musculoskeletal change of your entire life.”Having a baby changes your life in the best ways. It also takes a huge toll on your body.Pelvic Floor Physical Therapist, Dr. Betty DeLass, tells us how her treatments help women resolve issues like leaking, prolapse, movement restriction, adhesions, endometriosis, fertility, hemorrhoids, pelvic pain, and so much more. She helps clients not only get back to their previous activity level but also far surpass it!Run to your local pelvic floor PT or take advantage of Dr. Betty’s out-of-state options to get the personalized care YOU need. It may take time, but we promise that you don’t have to feel the way you’re feeling forever. Additional linksReborn Pelvic Health & Wellness WebsitePelvic Rehab Practitioner DirectoryPelvic Guru - Pelvic Health ResourceHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Hello, this is Meagan with The VBAC Link and we have a wonderful episode for you today. We have a great friend. Her name is Betty. She is actually local here to Salt Lake City, Utah and she is a pelvic floor specialist. Seriously, you guys. It’s going to be a good one. Just hearing her speak, I feel like she’s reading from a book. There’s so much education in her mind. I feel like she is just reciting this book because she uses all of the right words and just makes sense. I can’t wait for you guys to hear more about the pelvic floor and all of the things that go into prepping for a VBAC, how we can help things after a VBAC, and even we are going to talk a little bit about infertility. Review of the WeekMeagan: Of course, we have a Review of the Week, so I’m going to read that, and then we are going to jump right in. This review is from jmclane04 and it’s on Apple Podcasts. The review title is, “I got my VBAC.” It says, “I am four days out from my VBAC. I told my husband today it was the greatest accomplishment of my life thus far. Thank you, Julie and Meagan, and all of the wonderful women of strength who shared their stories. I cried so many times on my daily walks while listening to this podcast including the day before my TOLAC started. It was truly inspiring and one of my main resources in preparing for a VBAC. I will continue to listen to every new episode.”Well, jmclane04, I hope that you are listening to this wonderful review of yours. Thank you so much for leaving that. If you haven’t left a review and have a moment, please press “pause”, and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play. You can head over to Google and type in “The VBAC Link” and leave us a review there or you simply send us an email on Instagram, Facebook, or our personal email at [email protected]. Dr. Betty DeLass with Reborn Health & WellnessMeagan: Okay, Betty. Oh my gosh. Seriously, I love you so much. Betty: I love you too, Meagan. Meagan: Oh my gosh, seriously though. Actually, I have been one of Betty’s patients. She is amazing. She does pelvic work, in my opinion, in a very unique way. I just feel like you do things a little differently and I love that. I love that you do internal. I love that you do dry needling. I love that you’re talking about balancing the pelvis and all of those amazing things. So, let’s get into this. I think one of the very first questions I have for you is, what does pelvic floor therapy mean? What does it even mean when you say “pelvic floor therapy”?Definition of pelvic floor therapyBetty: Yeah, I think most people right out of the gates think, “Oh, you do your Kegels.” I just want to myth-bust that right out of the gate. It’s way, way, not Kegels and way, way more comprehensive and holistic than that. My definition might be a little bit different than some people's, but this is my definition of pelvic floor therapy. We are physical therapists, then we are orthopedic therapists, then we are pelvic floor therapists. We are kind of the nerdiest nerds of nerds and just couldn’t stop learning, so we dove down the rabbit hole of pelvic floor therapy, and then we were like, “Oh, here is the missing piece, the pelvis. It’s kind of important.” So that’s kind of what it encompasses in a nutshell. We do an evaluation. We do a full body movement analysis on you. We look at you from head to toe. We will have you bend all different directions, squat, balance, lunge, run, whatever you are coming in for, and then we will dive into each area specifically. We will look at your rib cage, your spine, your breathing patterns, your abdomen, and how your organs move. We’ll check out scar tissue, your hips, your pelvis, SI joints, pubic bone, tailbone, all the way down to your feet, and then we switch gears and do an internal exam as well. We are looking through the lens of a PT. We are not a midwife or an OB, but it is a pelvic internal exam similar to that. We are looking at a range of motion, strength, coordination, trigger points, prolapse, pressure management, and all sorts of things like that, and then piecing all of those things together to figure out why you are leaking. Why are you having pain during sex? Why are you having tailbone pain? Why do you have low back pain? Why do you have SPD or pubic symphysis dysfunction or all sorts of hosts of things like that regarding the pelvic floor and why you are coming in because a lot of times, it’s a combination of things inside the pelvis and outside of the pelvis. We want to make sure we are addressing and getting to the root cause of why you are having symptoms because honestly, ten people could walk in with the same complaint of, “I pee my pants when I sneeze,” and it could be for ten different reasons. We want to make sure we are addressing the reason why you have the issue you are having. Meagan: That is interesting because many of us think, “Oh, I pee when I sneeze.” And then they’re like, “Oh, it’s because I pushed for five hours.” It’s maybe not. I think that is fascinating. I want to go a little bit into C-sections specifically and how maybe a C-section parent could utilize pelvic floor therapy because I think sometimes, even for me, back in the day before I had my vaginal birth, I always thought that my pelvic floor wasn’t touched and wasn’t damaged. Nothing bad happened to my pelvic floor because I was cut open, right? Betty: Sure, sure. Meagan: But I feel like the more I have learned, the more I’ve realized that I really needed, really needed you back in the day when I was preparing for both my VBACs and really, for my first one because I feel like, over time, I’ve had more issues stem because I didn’t get care earlier on. Betty: Yeah. I think a really common misconception, too, is, “Oh, I had a C-section. My pelvic floor was spared,” and really, that’s not the case. You still grow a human being on top of your pelvic floor. Your pelvic floor still changed. Your weight shifted and all that stuff like that. Being pregnant in general is the biggest musculoskeletal change of your entire life more than having surgery or anything like a knee surgery or a shoulder surgery, and then you put on top of being pregnant and then having a C-section. It’s like, “Oh man. Those people really need some pelvic floor rehab because they also had a major abdominal surgery too.”And so it’s just important to think about if you were to have just a simple knee surgery, you would do rehab for months to get back to activities, but we don’t do anything for pregnancy and postpartum as a standard of care. That’s really what I’m about is changing that narrative and empowering other people to speak up for themselves and seek out that care because it’s really necessary. We could avoid a lot of the other surgeries or low back pain or other issues and get people back to being active and wanting to do the things they want to do. Literally, the world changes one vagina at a time. That’s really important to know. If you’ve had a C-section, you most definitely need pelvic floor rehab just because it’s not solely pelvic floor dependent. We are working on the abdomen, the C-section scar, any restrictions or adhesions that have happened, turning your core back on, mom butt, and all that stuff. So it’s all included in pelvic floor rehab. We’re making sure that the whole system works. Also, we’re bringing down the rib cage after being expanded from baby, so there’s just so much that can be done. Especially getting that mobility back in the C-section scar. They cut through seven layers of fascia and that’s really important to know because if we don’t mobilize that, low back pain is super, super common post-C-section, so we want to make sure the mobility happens in the front side of the abdomen so that you don’t tork and pull through your low back as much as you do because it’s restricted from the C-section scar. So, important pieces to know there. Meagan: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So, okay. That’s for parents that have had a C-section. What about first-time parents? How can we use you and your services to avoid a C-section?Betty: Totally. We love it when people come in proactively whether they have things going on or not. When they find out that they are pregnant, typically we see most people around their second trimester just simply because one, they don’t know that they are pregnant, and then two, they’re finally well enough to leave the house. They are not too tired or too sick and things like that. That’s a great time to come in. Even if you are having pain with intercourse or leaking before you even get pregnant, know that none of those things are normal. There are things that we can do to address that to even help with getting pregnant. And then when you are pregnant, prepping for labor and delivery, a lot of things that we will look at are just your movement patterns. We make sure your hips move off or your spine and your hip flexors are in good mobility. We can help with the round ligament pain. We can help lengthen the pelvic floor, make sure you are coordinated, and make sure you know when you are pushing, pushing correctly, and then also making sure that you’re– I’m going to get a little bit nerdy here. The deep frontal fascia line is a fascia line from your head to your toes and it incorporates the pelvic floor, the inner thighs, the adductors, and then the hip flexors. We really work a lot on the balance of that and making sure your adductors, your inner thighs, have a good length so that you can get into a deep squat to get those hips wide and pelvic floor open, and just making sure that you are in a good position from a musculoskeletal standpoint for baby to drop down in that pelvis. We make sure that you are able to open up the pelvis and get the pelvic floor out of the way so that you can have a vaginal delivery whether that’s the first time or a VBAC.  Also related, we’ve had a lot of really cool patients come in who are seeking VBACs. They are doing everything they can. They’re going to a chiropractor, acupuncture, pelvic PT, and doing all of the things. They have beautiful, beautiful outcomes. It’s just really cool to see. Meagan: Oh yeah, I love that. I would say that’s another misconception. “Oh, I haven’t had a baby yet. I don’t need pelvic floor rehab at all.” I’m just listening to you and there are so many things you can do and prepare to really have a beautiful experience and save us so much damage in the long run because not everyone has severe damage, right? But we could learn all of the tools to minimize anything. Betty: Totally, totally. Absolutely. I’m a big fan of prevention health and wellness and actually having true health care versus our sick care model that we currently live in. Meagan: Mhmm, absolutely. You mentioned a little bit about back and even ribs and stuff, what other symptoms, other than sneezing and peeing or pain during sex, would someone maybe have that would alarm them to say, “Hmm. Maybe I need to just seek out an opinion for a pelvic floor rehab person”?Betty: Yeah. Anything related to the low back, SI, and tailbone would be a great spot to start including, like you said, the leaking, and anything with the bowels. So constipation, hemorrhoids, painful periods, endometriosis, diastasis recti, prolapse or heaviness, pressure down in the pelvic floor whether it feels like your organs are falling out or your vagina is falling out– those are all things that we treat daily. Most of the time, people come in for one thing and then we dive deeper into their history and they’re like, “Oh yeah, this and this,” and then all of a sudden, they’re like, “Oh my gosh. All of these things that I thought were just part of who I am aren’t even things anymore.” So really, all of the things that we can address because we are that comprehensive PT, orthopedic PT, and pelvic PT. We treat it all and make sure that you are literally living your life to the fullest and walk out of here being like, “Wow, I never thought that I could feel this good.” That’s where we put our pride and joy in helping make that happen for people. Finding a pelvic floor PTMeagan: Oh my gosh. I love it. You have so many therapists all over Utah. How can we find even more people like you, for our listeners who are not here in Utah, that have the same qualifications? Because you have other– I’m going to talk about it in a second. I mean, it’s not other things but she does other things. She has this thing called dry needling and it’s my favorite so I have to talk about it. But anyway, how can people really find someone with qualifications like you?Betty: Yeah, absolutely. So there are a couple of websites that I’ll send people to. It’s called www.pelvicrehab.com and that’s a great resource. You can just type in your zip code and they’ll pull up a bunch of practitioners that all have a little bio and potentially a picture if they pay for a subscription and whatnot. Then also www.pelvicguru.com and the same thing. You type in your zip code and it pulls up practitioners around you. You can look at them. I would treat it similarly to seeking out a hair stylist or an OB, midwife, or doula. You want to make sure. You can have a chat with them, see if you’re a good fit, and see if they fit your philosophy of what you are wanting from your care perspective because there is definitely a dynamic shift that’s happened in pelvic rehab itself.A lot of us are being very much more holistic but there are still some people who sit there in the biofeedback and kegel world. That’s what their treatment is, so just make sure that you’re matching well with the person that you’re finding when you do look on those directories. Otherwise, just a simple Google search too of “pelvic floor therapy near me”. Another key piece through that is to know that most of us are PTs, but there are also OTs as well that do pelvic rehab. Meagan: Okay, good to know. I don’t even know if I realized that OTs can do pelvic rehab. Betty: Yep. Dry needlingMeagan: Awesome. Okay, let’s talk a little bit about dry needling or a lot of it, whatever you decide. All I know is, okay. A little bit of storytime. So Betty rides. She cycles and so do I. We did a little, it’s not a race, but a ride across Utah essentially. She was telling us about dry needling and everyone went to bed. I should have been exhausted, but I just had to learn more about dry needling, so I started YouTubing it and Googling “dry needling”. I was like, “Oh my gosh. This looks crazy.” It kind of reminded me of acupuncture a little bit. But anyway, when we got home, I scheduled Betty, got in, and she did this dry needling. I will say it can be a little intense, but so amazing. So talk about what dry needling is, maybe how it differentiates between acupuncture, and how it can benefit people out there. Also, I know that you’ve been doing it on C-section scars now, right? Betty: Yes!Meagan: Let’s talk about that too. What does dry needling do to a C-section scar? I haven’t had that done yet but let’s talk about those things. Betty: Yeah, yeah. Okay, I’m going to start but if I get distracted because I like to talk forever, then totally redirect me. You can be like, “Don’t forget to talk about this.”Meagan: Okay.Betty: So dry needling is a tool that we use to help communicate with the nervous system and so if you think, most people know what acupuncture is. Acupuncture and dry needling use the same needle but have totally different philosophies on the treatment and intervention of what it is there for. Acupuncture is very eastern medicine, Chinese medicine, acupuncture points, Chi energy, meridian lines, all of the stuff like that. Dry needling is all about the trigger point in a muscle, so a knot. When you’re like, “Ooh, I have a knot,” that’s the trigger point. That’s what we’re after. We use that needle to do dry needling in a trigger point in a muscle. What happens when you have a trigger point in a muscle is there’s decreased blood flow which leads to decreased oxygen, which drops the pH in the muscle, which then, neuropeptide chemicals sit there and signal to the brain, “Pain, sharp, dull, stabbing,” or whatever your brain’s perception of that is. We take a dry needle into the trigger point which creates a local twitch response. Like when your eyelid twitches, it has a little twitch trigger to it. It feels like that plus some spicy spark electricity when a muscle twitches from a dry needle. Then, what happens from that twitch is blood flow comes back in, oxygen comes back in, the pH gets restored, and then those neuropeptide chemical toxins release into the bloodstream and wash up, kind of like a lactic acid burn. The post-needle soreness that you feel feels very much like a workout sore only very specifically located to where that needle twitched. That can last anywhere from a couple of hours to a couple of days. Immediately after dry needling, it’s such a cool clinical game changer both for the clinician and the patient because it’s super effective and efficient. You immediately have a better range of motion, less pain, and better activation of muscles. It just does this whole host of things chemically locally, and then also through the nervous system locally in the spinal cord, and then up into the brain from an essential system side too. It’s an amazing modality for you. So that was dry needling. What was the next part that you wanted me to answer? Meagan: I’m trying to remember now. Betty: Something about a C-section scar—Meagan: C-section scars, yeah. What I was thinking is how, and maybe even why. Betty: Yeah. Meagan: I mean, you kind of just even talked about it. My left part of my C-section scar– I think that’s where maybe my provider was stitching, my left side specifically. It seems like it’s tighter on that side. Betty: Yes, totally. Meagan: Tighter, maybe tougher. I don’t know exactly. Betty: Yeah, more restricted. Meagan: More restricted. And so, I don’t know. It sounds like maybe that would benefit. But yeah, let’s talk about dry needling a C-section scar and how that can help and why you would benefit. Betty: Absolutely. First, I want to touch on the tightness of one side of the scar versus the other. Typically, it depends on where your surgeon stood and where they tied their last knots. So if your surgeon was standing on the left, it will be tighter on the left and if they were standing on the right, it will probably be tighter on the right. So just keep that as a side note of, “Where was my surgeon at?”Meagan: He was on the left. That’s what I was thinking. He was on the left. Betty: Yeah, most people are on the right because the surgeon is right-handed so they will stand on the right, but if you had a left-handed surgeon, they would stand on the left so that should make sense. And then as far as dry needling scars, it can be done on any scar, really. It doesn’t have to be a C-section scar, but that’s the one we most commonly see. We are pelvic floor PTs, so we see a lot of C-sections. We take a dry needle into that tissue where the scar is superficially and then once it’s in there, instead of the trigger point twitching that I just described, we spin the needle and wind up the fascia around the needle. So fascia, if you don’t know what that is, is the spider webbing material all over you. It basically holds you all together. You’d be a blob on the floor without it. If you think about chicken, if you peel chicken apart, you can see the fascial spider-webby stuff. You basically stick the needle in the tissue and twist it up. It usually doesn’t hurt at all when we are twisting it up. It sounds gnarly but it’s not that bad. It’s all superficial. Once it’s twisted up, we really can’t even pull the needle out because all of the fasciae wraps around it. And then we sit there and breathe a little bit, talk about something else, and then once that tissue has relaxed and the nervous system has decided, “Oh, okay. I can let go of this holding pattern here,” then we can pull that needle out. We can always untwist it too and pull it out, but it’s really great. We’ve had tons of really great success with that with people who say like, “Oh my gosh, that burning symptom is gone,” or “I can touch my C-section scar now.” Pretty immediately, big, big changes can happen with that. That just brings up mobility and movement. Another thing that we commonly do with that is often times if that C-section is tapped down, we’ll also needle the rectus abdominis which is the six-pack muscles both above and below that and then where it attaches into the pubic bone too. That can release a lot of things. A lot of times, people might have urinary urgency frequency and burning, almost UTI-like symptoms after a C-section just because that fascia is pulled tight and that fascia from that abdominal wall goes into your pelvic floor. That can cause issues in the pelvic floor too if that C-section scar doesn’t move well in creating those UTI-like symptoms even though you maybe test negative on all of those. That’s another good sign of, “Hmm, I should go to pelvic PT because I have negative cultures when I test for a UTI.” Meagan: Yeah, that is interesting because I had that. They kept saying, “No, you don’t have a UTI.” That was after my second C-section. I was like, “I’ve got to.” I grew up with UTIs so I just figured, “Oh, I had a catheter in. I probably do because I’m more susceptible to it since I have a history of them.” They kept saying, “No, no, no, no, no you don’t.” I was like, “Okay.” But now it makes me wonder. It just makes me wonder if that had anything to do with it. It honestly happened for weeks, though. Like, weeks after birth. Betty: Yeah, yeah. So definitely something to do with pelvic PT for sure. We might need to get you back in to needle that C-section scar. AdhesionsMeagan: I know. I definitely don’t have that UTI feeling anymore, but I know that I have tightness on that left side. I know that I have adhesions in there. That’s another thing I wanted to talk about with having two C-sections myself. Having a C-section or just a scar in general, anytime our body is cut open, our body creates adhesions and scar tissue, right? So two questions. One, can it affect the outcome of a vaginal versus Cesarean birth if we have dense adhesions and scar tissue in there, and can you as a pelvic PT rehab provider help with that? Can you do that? Betty: Yeah. Well, so we can definitely help with scar tissue, mobility, things like that. Now, true adhesions. You can’t really break adhesions up from endometriosis or really heavy scar tissue, but we can definitely move the tissue around it and we can get that scar as mobile as possible. Sometimes, there are the extremes where it’s like, “You do need surgical intervention to remove adhesions depending on the severity of it.” I just want to put that out there. Not all things can be managed with conservative care, but most things can. And so just figuring out where is your sealing on that and figuring that out. As far as tears, whether it’s vaginal tears or C-section tears, having the mobility through that just allows your body to function the way it’s supposed to so your pelvic floor can move out of the way. Baby may be able to better drop in the pelvis if all of that is mobile the way it should be. When you have restrictions and things like that, things tighten and bind in. It’s hard to even– like having a breech baby and having them flipped. If things are really tight, you can’t even move them no matter what you do unless things are loosened up. If the scar tissue is really tense and not moving, you might tear again on a vaginal delivery if you don’t have that mobile and moving. So just making sure that all aspects, I mean, that’s our job too, is to evaluate you and make sure, “Okay. What’s moving? What’s not moving? What do you have good activation on? What do you not have good activation on?” and then fine-tune those things so that you can be symptom-free and be able to move your body the way it needs to move. Meagan: Oh my gosh, yeah. That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. How would a provider even be able to diagnose those really dense adhesions that are causing big problems? Could a provider say, “Your baby could be breech due to this? Maybe you could go do this.” Do you know what I mean? Does that happen? Are providers in the know?Betty: Yeah, I think that’s just a hard topic. I can speak for us as pelvic PTs. We’re like, “Well, that just makes sense. Let’s balance out the pelvis. Let’s get the adductors moving. Let’s get scar tissue moving. Let’s get the hip flexors out of the way and the round ligaments,” all of those things. Those are the day-to-day things of what we are doing. I think that the rest of the world and most providers, not all, there are some amazing other providers that are great advocates for pelvic rehab, but a lot of them don’t even know what we do or how we can help people. They still think we do Kegels and biofeedback. It’s like, “Oh, just go if you have issues later.” There’s still a lot of, “Oh, you have pain with sex? Just have a glass of wine. Don’t worry about it. You’ll be fine. Just give it some more time.” It’s like, “No, no, no, no. You don’t understand. It shouldn’t be painful at all and you don’t have to live with that kind of stuff.” So I think it just depends on the provider that you talk to, what their scope is, and what they do. I’ve even had good relationships with OBs and midwives and stuff like that. They’re fabulous clinicians and they’re really good at what they do. I’ll even ask them a question about something related to pelvic PT and they’re like, “I don’t know what you’re talking about. You can do something for that?” That’s, unfortunately, more common than not, but that’s really where my passion is too. That’s why I’m so thankful you invited me on the podcast here to share the knowledge of what pelvic floor therapy is, what we can do, what we do help with, and know it’s not something you just have to live with or have surgery or medication. There are better ways. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Oh my gosh. There are so many other better ways. I am just so grateful that you are here. Is there anything else that you would like to touch on or anything that you think our listeners could really find valuable? I mean, obviously, all of the things you have said are valuable, but is there anything else that maybe I’m not asking because I don’t know the question? It’s like when you go to a provider and the provider is like, “Do you have any questions for me?” And you’re like, “Umm, should I? Maybe?” I have questions, but I don’t know what questions to ask.Betty: Sure. Returning to activitiesMeagan: It’s not even that I don’t know. It’s just like, there is so much that you do that I probably don’t even know that you do still. But yeah, especially for our VBAC parents, anything else that you would like to cover?Betty: I would just say in general, be an advocate for yourself. I know that you can echo that a lot. “This isn’t normal. I know that this isn’t normal. I should be able to do something about this.” Listen to your gut on that because most likely you can. And then, just finding those providers that are a safe space, are going to listen to your story, and be able to guide you in the steps that you need to be able to take is just an overall, general good thing to know. Something else that we do too is a lot of return to activity whether that’s walking around the block pushing a stroller, being an ultra trail runner, doing a marathon, or CrossFit. We get people back to those activities after baby whether that’s C-section or vaginal and make sure that they are fundamentally loading their body correctly and have those foundations laid so that they know they are activating their core correctly and they are using their glutes correctly. We have a lot of people who, when they do work with us, go above and beyond what they were even pre-pregnancy because they have that foundation laid. I’m a big fan of the idea that postpartum is such an opportunity to really find out some of those things that were there that you didn’t know were there because you basically get stripped down to nothing, right? I can say that from experience. “Oh my gosh. What happened to my body? How am I going to get back to running a marathon?” As an opportunity, you can really work on those fundamental skill sets and build a really solid foundation of movement patterns, and then just go crush it. So we really enjoy that too of getting people back to the activity they want to be doing, and then high-level activity too.Meagan: Yeah. Get back to normal life. I have had doula clients who were like, “Yeah, back in the day when I could lift” or “Back in the day when I could run” and it’s not even like they’re always leaking. It’s causing pain or they feel a lot of pelvic pressure and things like that. I just want to say that you can still do that. You can. You can get there again. If you enjoy those things and you want to, you can do it again. So know that you don’t have to feel the way you are feeling forever. Betty: Totally. Meagan: There’s help out there. It might take time. It might take time and it might take effort and patience. Give your body grace and allow it to recover, but it can happen. It really can. Dr. Betty’s virtual and out-of-state resources Betty: Awesome, yeah. If anyone is interested too, we also have some free resources on our website as PDF downloads to help with just a couple of the things we touched on. Online programs and in-person sessions are available for you guys. That’s why we are here. Meagan: Yeah. I was just going to ask you to share all of that. I know you have a course. You have freebies. Are you guys doing virtual? Is it possible to do virtual or is it super recommended for people to find providers in their area? Betty: Yeah. We definitely do virtual. We call that a remote consultation. We don’t classify it as pelvic floor therapy because we honestly can’t evaluate you over the internet, but we can be kind of like a coach navigator and play an educational role through that. So that’s definitely an option from an online standpoint. And then from there, we definitely encourage people to find someone local to them. But if they are unable to find a provider that is really resonating with them and getting them the care that they need, we do offer an out-of-town program. People fly in for a week. They come and see us in the clinic for anywhere from an hour and a half to two hours a day. We see them five days a week or for however long they are here. It is a very intensive program, then send them on their way with things to work on once they leave, then follow up with them remotely as well. We have done a few of those as well which is really fun for me when people fly in to see us. I’m like, “That’s pretty cool.” Meagan: That’s awesome. So awesome. Such a good feeling, I’m sure. Betty: Yeah, but obviously no online program, and I have online programs and they are there for education, but no online program, no “get fit after six weeks postpartum”, any of that stuff is actually going to truly get to the root of things. I firmly believe that in-person, one on one, hands-on, manual therapy with a skilled practitioner is the gold standard. I always say that if that’s what your options are, choose that first but there are other options from an access standpoint to make sure that you are getting the care that you need and helping get you in the direction that you need to go. Like I said, you can always fly to Utah and see us. Meagan: Absolutely. That is such a cool option. So if you are looking to check out Betty and her amazing team, can you tell them where they can find you? Obviously, you are in Utah, but you’re all over. Betty: Yeah. Our website is called www.rebornphw.com for pelvic health and wellness. We are on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, all of the things @rebornpelvichealthandwellness. That’s where you can find us all over the place. Meagan: Absolutely. We are going to be listing all of those things in the show notes. We will make sure to be tagging you on social media. So if you are not on our Instagram or didn’t know we had an Instagram, head over to Instagram @thevbaclink and see today’s post. We’ll have her post right there. You can click on it and go like her page. There is so much that you post that so many people from out of state really can still benefit from. It’s definitely one of those pages that I would suggest following. Well, thank you so much for being with us.Betty: Thanks, Meagan. Meagan: Seriously, you are awesome. I just think you are incredible and I know all of the people out there do as well because I see them. I see the comments all over our Utah birth forums. So keep it up and thank you so much for sharing today all of your wealth and knowledge. Betty: Awesome. Thanks for having me, Meagan. I really appreciate it.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“Your story is 50% yours and 50% your baby’s.” After having a crash C-section under general anesthesia, Jennifer planned to have a peaceful and redemptive vaginal birth at home. Jennifer shares how she still found peace and redemption through her VBAC, even though things didn’t go exactly as planned. If for some reason, your home or birth center birth is transferred to the hospital, know that it’s okay. Know that you didn’t do anything wrong. Nothing failed, the story is just changing. You’re turning the page and it’s going to a new place. It’s okay to change!Additional linksJennifer’s Instagram and Photography WebsiteThe VBAC Link Blog: Deciding Between HBAC and Hospital BirthThe VBAC Link Facebook CommunityHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Good morning, everybody. This is The VBAC Link and we are excited to bring you another VBAC story today. We have our friend, Jennifer, who is in California, and guess what? She is also a birth doula. I love when birth doulas share their stories because I feel like sometimes as birth doulas, while we are in labor, we forget all of the doula things. I always like to hear sometimes how we as birthing doulas will labor because for me, when I was in labor, there were some things that I knew I probably should have done but I wasn’t in that doula mindset. I couldn’t think, “Oh, I should do Rebozo apples right now.” And so I love hearing what doulas do and don’t do. I love that because it’s just a reminder that even we as doulas can benefit from having a doula in the room. So I’m excited to hear your story, my love. Review of the WeekBut of course, we have a Review of the Week which is from RosiP87 and she says, “This podcast is empowering and healing.” she says, “The VBAC Link has been exactly what I needed but I didn’t know it. Listening to the podcast has been healing and helpful in processing my C-section after my first baby. Julie and Meagan are informative and engaging to listen to. I know that I will have a different birth experience with my second baby because of the information and confidence that I have gained through listening to this podcast. Thank you so much, ladies.”Thank you, RosiP. That was back in March, so definitely write us when you have your baby and let us know how things went. Thank you so much for writing a review. If you haven’t written a review yet, we would love your review. You can head over to Apple Podcasts or Google Play. You can go over to Facebook. You can leave us an actual Google review on our website or if you would like, send us an email with the subject “Review.” We would love to add your review and possibly read it on the next podcast. Jennifer’s StoryMeagan: Okay, Jennifer. We are going to turn the time over to you. We were just talking a little bit about you becoming a doula. I would love to hear why you became a doula, what inspired you, and maybe how being a doula helped you during your birth as well. Jennifer: Hi, thank you for having me. I appreciate it so much. Meagan: Yes, thank you for being with us. Jennifer: You guys were a huge part of my journey through this, so I’m really excited to be here.Meagan: I love that because we can’t physically be with everybody but I love that we can just be with people on their journey, even if it’s just a sliver. If it’s following our Instagram, following our blogs, or listening to the podcast, it just makes me feel so special. I feel like I have attended so many births through listening to all of these birth stories and then kind of being a doula on the side on this podcast. Jennifer: Yes, absolutely. You guys have definitely helped thousands of women, I’m sure. Meagan: Well, awesome. Well, share your stories with us. Jennifer: Yeah, so I know you just asked how I became a doula and I’m still fairly new to it. I’m going slowly because I have two little kids. Meagan: Yep, being a doula with children is hard. Jennifer: It’s really hard. Yeah, it’s definitely tricky to navigate, but it’s so rewarding. I think even just doing a little bit here and there–Meagan: Yep. One or two is so great, yeah. Jennifer: Yeah and really, it was just my original C-section that inspired me to become a doula because I was always interested in birth, but after I went through a really scary situation that I wasn’t prepared for, I just wanted to make up for it by helping other women go through their journeys and hoping to help them avoid going through some of the more traumatic stuff if they’re educated and advocated for, and stuff like that. Meagan: I love it. I love it, love it, love it. Well, welcome to your journey. I’m excited to see you grow. Jennifer: Thank you. Thank you so much. I’m excited too. Meagan: Do you have an Instagram for your doula work? Jennifer: You know what? I don’t. I just use my personal one, but I’d be happy to give you that. Meagan: Yeah, if you want anyone to go follow you, feel free to share it. Jennifer: Yeah, I can just send it to you because my last name is kind of confusing. Meagan: Perfect. Send it and we will add it to the show notes. Jennifer: Perfect. Awesome, thank you. Meagan: Okay. Well, feel free to share your stories. I’m so excited to hear them. Jennifer: Sure. So I guess no VBAC is a VBAC without a C-section, so that’s where I’ll start. I was 24 when I had my first baby. I had always wanted to become a mom. I was always super interested in birth even when I was a teenager. I’d always watch all of the birth stories and all of that stuff on TV and all of the things that make birth sound really scary. I was still interested in it. I guess I’ll just jump right in. I was 40 weeks exactly on the dot. I was laying in bed at night and I was feeling super uncomfortable. I got up to go pee and my water broke. I had taken a Bradley class and I was just preparing to labor at home for as long as I could, but I was confused when my water broke because, in Bradley, they would teach, “10% of people have their water break first. It’s probably not going to happen to you. Here’s what to do if it doesn’t, basically.”So when my water broke, I woke up my husband and I was like, “Dude. My water broke. I think we should just go to the hospital. Isn’t that what you’re supposed to do?” And he was like, “I don’t know. Are you sure?” So I called them and they said, “Well, we have to tell you to come in,” and I was like, “Okay, I guess I’ll go in then.” So I took a shower and went in. I got there and I was 1 centimeter dilated, of course. I was having contractions and everything. I kind of expected to be barely dilated, but I just–Meagan: That’s where I was, too. Jennifer: Your water broke first?Meagan: My water broke, and then I walked in there and they were like, “You’re maybe a 1.”Jennifer: It’s like, “Oh my god.” Hearing that is just like, “Okay, we have a long road ahead of us.”Meagan: Uh-huh. Jennifer: Yeah, but they said, “We’re going to keep you because your water broke,” and blah blah blah blah, all the things they normally tell you. So we were in triage for a couple of hours and then they got me a room. That’s when the contractions really started kicking in. I was planning an unmedicated birth, but I was pretty surprised from the get-go how intense it was. My husband was just rubbing my back and everything. I was doing fine. I was just leaning forward through all of the contractions and breathing. I think around 5:00 or 6:00 a.m., we called our parents and they came. It just started getting so intense at that point and I just wasn’t as prepared as I thought I was for the sensations. My mom and my husband were rubbing my back and everything was just getting so intense so fast, on top of each other. They checked me and I was 4 centimeters. I was just like, “Oh my god, dude. What? How?” I kept going, though. I labored for, I don’t know, maybe another four hours. They checked me again and I was at a 6. At that point, I was just like, “I can’t do this anymore. If this is going to get more painful, I can’t do it.” I asked them for something at that point, but not for an epidural. I did not want to get an epidural, so they were like, “Okay, well let’s try the laughing gas.” I tried that and I don’t know about anyone else, but I could not keep that thing on my face at all. I just couldn’t.Meagan: I had it too and I was like, “I need something to hold it for me,” because while holding it, too, I would get kind of like, not sleepy-sleepy, but drowsy. Jennifer: Yes. Like, out of it. Meagan: Out of it a little bit. I couldn’t apply the pressure that I needed for it to be on my face, and then I’d forget, and then my hands would drop, and then it would fall. I was like, “Can someone just hold this for me? Because I can’t.”Jennifer: Oh my gosh, I know. It’s like, the thing that you have to hold your own. Meagan: Yeah. You can’t have anyone else touch it. That’s the rule.Jennifer: Exactly. Meagan: Yeah. Jennifer: Oh I know. Yeah, that was terrible because I was like, “Okay, if I could just get this thing to work properly, maybe I could keep going,” but it didn’t work like that. Everyone was, not yelling at me, but just like, “Hold it on your face. Just hold it there.” I was like, “I can’t.” It was horrible. So I was like, “Screw this. Let’s forget about this.” So they were like, “Do you want to try fentanyl?” I was like, “I really don’t want fentanyl,” because my whole take on the situation was like, “How is it that I’m not allowed to take Advil but I can take fentanyl?” It just didn’t make sense to me. Meagan: Right? Jennifer: So I was like, “Okay, let’s just do the epidural then.” They were like, “Well, that has fentanyl in it too.” So I was like, “Okay, whatever. I’m not going to get through this without it,” or so I thought. I ended up getting the epidural. I was 8 centimeters at that point and it worked right away, but then immediately after I had got it, his heart rate dropped really low to 70. Immediately, they were just like, “Okay. We are taking you to the OR. We’ve got to get this baby out right now.” So they rolled me to the OR and I was freaking out the whole time, of course. My parents were in there and they were just talking. They had no idea what was going on. They threw my husband some scrubs and they rolled me in there. Everyone was just like, “What? What happened?” No one else was paying attention, but by the time they got me in there, his heart rate stabilized. They were like, “Oh, never mind.”Meagan: It’s actually really common for babies' heart rates to drop after an epidural. Jennifer: Yeah, which at the time, I didn’t know that. The nurses were telling me, “We have never seen this before.” Meagan: What?!Jennifer: Yes, and since then, I’ve been like, that’s either a huge lie or this is their first time being a nurse. Meagan: Yeah, that’s interesting because I see it all of the time as a doula. Jennifer: Yeah. Meagan: Sometimes, it’s getting more fluid. Sometimes, it’s stabilizing mom’s blood pressure. Sometimes, it’s just changing the position because they sit you up, you curl over, and then they lay you flat on your back. Between those three positions, baby’s like, “Whoa, what the heck?” And sometimes, it’s just slightly moving to the right or the left and it can recover. Jennifer: Yes, yes. And since then, I’ve learned that. I also know that my blood pressure is naturally really low so that probably has something to do with it. Meagan: Yep, yep. Jennifer: Yeah, so they rolled me back in and they were like, “Just kidding, you can have a vaginal birth,” and I was like, “Okay.” So they checked me again. I had a million cervical checks and they were like, “Okay, you are at a 9.5. The baby is coming soon,” and I was like, “Okay cool.” So they were like, “You just have a little cervical lip.” They put a peanut ball in between my legs and I lay there for two hours. Nothing was happening. I was feeling a lot of pressure, but I wasn’t feeling the urge to push. It was just a lot of pressure if that makes sense. The nurse next to me– I remember just laying there and I was like, “Oh my gosh. When is something going to happen?” I was just over it at that point. And the nurse was sitting next to me on her computer and she was like, “You know, I know you don’t want medication, but the doctor and I really think that the lowest dose possible of Pitocin might get this baby out right now.” I was like, “I don’t know. I don’t feel comfortable with that.” She was like, “We can just do a 2, the absolute lowest dose, and we really think it will help.”I was like, “Uh, okay.” So they did that and once again, immediately, his heart rate dropped really low. Everyone came rushing into the room again and I was just laying there freaking out. It just got so frantic so fast. This nurse started saying, “Okay, it’s been three minutes without a heart rate. Three minutes, four minutes, five minutes,” just counting it like that. The doctor was right there and she was like, “Okay, push. Just push.” I tried once and she was like, “Not like that. No, no, no. You’re doing it wrong. Just push.” I was just so flustered. Meagan: Oh my goodness, yeah. Jennifer: Yeah. It was crazy. The nurse next to me just continued saying, “Seven minutes, eight minutes, nine minutes,” and eventually, the doctor was just like, “Okay, we’ve got to get this baby out.” So once again, they rolled me back into the OR. I’m a first-time mom. I’ve never given birth before and I’m like, “Is he alive? I don’t know.” So they rolled me back there and they moved me onto the table. The nurse put the doppler on my belly and she could not find his heartbeat. She was just moving it all around my stomach and couldn’t find it. I was screaming and crying. I was like, “Is he okay?” And they were just like, “It’s going to be okay. It’s going to be okay. Stop screaming.” I just felt so unsupported at that moment. No one could understand how I was feeling. The anesthesiologist came in and he was like, “Look, we are just going to have to put you under. We have to get him out now.” I just burst into tears and I was like, “I’m not going to be awake for the birth of my son? Is there any other way to do this?” He eventually agreed. He gave me all kinds of stuff and he was like, “Okay, let’s just try this when you’re awake.” So he gave me all kinds of stuff. I was feeling fairly numb, but not all the way numb. I could feel them doing everything they were doing, but it wasn’t severely painful. I was still screaming. I think I was just so scared. My husband wasn’t in there the whole time. They wouldn’t let him in until maybe halfway through the surgery.Meagan: What?!Jennifer: Yeah. He came in eventually. Meagan: Jeez. That’s scary for him and super scary for you too. Jennifer: It was. It was really scary. I just felt so alone laying there on this cold table not knowing if my baby was okay. So he came in and he was freaking out worse than me the whole time. I just have to say that at the beginning of my labor when I was laboring without pain medications, he was puking in a bag in the corner because he was so freaked out. Meagan: Oh no. Jennifer: And I was getting mad at him. I was like, “I should be the one puking right now, not you.” Yeah, it was sad. But anyway, he came into the room and he was holding my hand. He didn’t say a word. He was just looking into my eyes, crying. I was screaming back at him. Eventually, I felt them lift something out of me and it was him. He was crying and it was the best moment of relief. I couldn’t believe he was okay. They put him over the drape and they took him back immediately. My husband went back there and they were weighing him and stuff. I was just asking my husband, “What does he look like? What color is his hair?” I kept asking, “Can I have my baby? Can I have my baby? Can you put him on my chest?” They were like, “No, you can’t see him yet.” It ended up being 45 minutes before I got to see him. I was just so sad to have to be asking what he looked like. It just felt so wrong. Meanwhile, they were stitching me back up and that’s when everything started kicking in, all of the numbing stuff they gave me. I started feeling like I couldn’t breathe or swallow. It was numb up to my throat. My husband came back and I was just like, “I can’t breathe. Something is wrong.” The anesthesiologist was standing above my head talking on the phone. I was just like, “Excuse me, help. Help!” and he just kept talking on the phone. I so vividly remember that moment of feeling like I was going to die and no one–Meagan: Not being acknowledged?Jennifer: Yes. Yes. I look back at it now and I’m like, “I probably wasn’t going to die, obviously.” But when you’re feeling that way–Meagan: Yeah, but when you’re feeling that way your mind’s not like, “I’m going to be okay.” It’s like, “I don’t feel like I can breathe.” Jennifer: Yes. Yes. Meagan: That’s where your mind is and it’s not able to really go anywhere else.Jennifer: Exactly. It was a scary moment and my husband had to be like, “Hey, help her. Please help her.” So anyways, he gave me more stuff. I don’t know what any of the stuff was. I do have my records, but I mean, it’s all scientific talk, all the stuff I never planned on having. Anyway, they eventually rolled me into the recovery room and when we were on our way there, that’s when they put him on my chest. His name’s August. They put August on my chest and I just remember thinking, “Are you sure this is my baby?” I remember everyone talking about this moment of bliss and love. I didn’t feel anything. I just felt like there was a baby on my chest. It was really sad. Meagan: Yeah, disconnect a little bit. Jennifer: Definitely disconnect. I think I was just so traumatized by the day. Meagan: Oh yeah, and medicated. Jennifer: Yes, and so heavily medicated that I just couldn’t think at all. You know, once we got back to the room and I started breastfeeding him, that connection started slowly building. I was puking all night because of the anesthesia. It was just hard. The next day, I started feeling so in love with him. I started feeling how most moms feel, but I really struggled after that because I just felt like my body was broken. I didn’t give birth to this baby. This baby was cut out of me. Maybe I couldn’t have done it. I’m not a real woman, you know? I struggled with those feelings for a really long time. I also felt like something was missing. I loved him so much the first year of his life, but I was just like, “Why am I not happy? Why am I trying to escape motherhood somehow?” I don’t know. I wanted to be with him, but I just felt like there was just some overwhelming sense of sadness over my life during the first year. I had severe anxiety. I was so scared to leave him anywhere. I couldn’t sleep at all because I just wanted to stare at him. It was just not how I pictured motherhood. That’s when I started thinking about VBAC and being a doula and everything. I started going on these long walks every day with my son because that’s when COVID hit. I couldn’t go to the gym or anything, so I just went on walks every day and I would listen to your guys’ podcast for at least an hour, at least an episode a day. It just brought me so much relief at that moment hearing other women who have also gone through the same thing and other women talking about how they felt broken too. I knew I wasn’t alone. So thank you for your podcast. It helped me so much. Meagan: Aw, that makes me feel so happy.Jennifer: Yes, you should. Meagan: And thank you for all of those who have shared their stories leading up to yours to help you and just like you are doing right now. Every story pays it forward.Jennifer: Absolutely. I think there is so much magic in women sharing their stories together. It just makes them feel so much more united. Meagan: Absolutely, yep. Jennifer: Definitely. So fast forward, my son was– how old was he? 22 months or something? I got pregnant again. It was our first try. We really wanted that age gap, so it was awesome. This whole time, I had been living, breathing, and eating VBAC. All I wanted in life was to have a VBAC. I knew it was going to be different. I was going to go a different route. I was so freaked out about the hospital at that point. I knew I didn’t want to go back. I sought midwifery care and I had this beautiful, amazing midwife. Her name was LaMonica. She was so laid back, so calm, and so trusting of my body. Anytime I had concerns, she would just be like, “You’re fine. You’re going to do fine.” She just never made a big deal about anything. It just felt normal. That was exactly what I needed. I spent so much of my pregnancy journaling, meditating, and talking to the baby. I knew that I was capable. I just wanted to cut everything else out from my life that wasn’t serving me, I guess. I didn’t watch any TV or listen to any negative birth stories or anything. I didn’t talk to anyone about my plans who weren’t going to be supportive of them. I just didn’t want anything negative in my head. We were planning a home birth and I was really excited about it. I was 40 weeks and 6 days, I think, or 40 weeks and 5 days. I was starting to get a little bit nervous about the time limits and stuff that California has on home birth. For anyone who doesn’t know, you can’t be 42 weeks or over. They would have to transfer care. I was still a week away, but we were talking about it a little bit about what happened if– I was just so freaked out about the hospital. It was starting to stress me out really badly. She was like, “Well, I could sweep your membranes if you want me to.” I was like, “Sure. I guess the worst that could happen is nothing.” You know? So I got my membranes swept and then not the next day, but the day after– I was having a lot of prodromal labor that whole week. I had nights where I would have sensations that were ten or fifteen minutes apart or closer all night, and then I would wake up and they would go away. This night, in particular, I was having the same sensations all night. I woke up and they didn’t go away. I had a feeling like, “Maybe this is it. We’ll see.” I got my membranes swept, so I knew that it was a possibility. I was just doing my daily things, hanging out with my friends, and taking care of my son. My husband, around 1:00 or so, put my son down for a nap. I’m a photographer too, so I was sitting at my computer editing on my birth ball and I was noticing, “Okay. These are still here and they are getting a little stronger and closer together.” I went to the bathroom and my mucus plug came out. I was like, “Yes. Sweet. That means things are happening.” My dad had invited us over for dinner that night and I was like, “Let’s still go. I might be in early labor, but who cares? Let’s still go.” He lives about two miles away from my house. I was like, “Huh, maybe I should walk.” Oh, and just to preface, I had been so weird the whole pregnancy about the baby’s position because I just wanted him or her, we didn’t know the sex, in a good position to come out the right way. We went to Disneyland at around 35 weeks pregnant and I sat in a car reclined the whole time, then I sat in this massage chair reclined and I was like, “This one time won’t hurt,” but it was so weird because after that weekend, he– turned out to be a boy– was OP and he stayed OP. I did everything in my power to turn him occiput anterior, but he just wanted to stay sunny-side-up. I decided to walk to my dad’s house because I thought it might help kick things into gear and it might help with his position. I put my son in his stroller and I started walking there. I was having the waves every five to seven minutes. They were definitely getting to the point where I had to breathe a little bit through them, but they were fine. So I walked the two miles, and then I got to my dad’s house. My husband and my dad were talking, my son was playing, and we ordered pizza and stuff. I was just standing in the corner swaying my hips. My dad was like, “So is baby might be coming soon?” I was playing it cool. I didn’t want to make a big deal. By the time the pizza got there, I was not hungry. I ordered this healthy pizza with cauliflower crust and stuff and I was like, “I should probably eat something because I have a feeling this will be the last time I want to eat.” We were all sitting at the counter and everyone was eating their pizza. I was standing, leaning over the counter, swaying my hips, and eating my pizza. A couple of minutes after that, my husband was like, “You look like you need to go home.” And I was like, “Yeah, I think so.” It was starting to get to the point where I couldn’t keep it on the down low anymore. My dad, once again, was like, “Do you think the baby is coming this week?” We were about to leave and I was like, “I’m pretty sure I’m in labor right now.” He was like, “Really?” I was like, “Yeah, I think so.” So we went home and we put my son to bed. I was brushing my teeth and swaying. I went to go lay down with him and I was just thinking, maybe I can go to sleep for a little bit. I definitely couldn’t, but I was able to lay for maybe 30 or 45 minutes. My husband was still out in the living room feeding the cats or something. I texted him from the room and I was like, “I think it’s time to set up the birth tub and everything else.” He set up our living room so beautifully. He hung up all of these lights and put up the birth tub. It was just exactly how I wanted it. It was so peaceful and beautiful. He went to bed and I really wanted, throughout my pregnancy, to labor by myself for a while. I just think it’s so amazing how powerful women’s bodies are and I just wanted to experience that without distraction. So I came into the living room and the kitchen. I was laboring alone and just listening to music, swaying, setting up some last-minute stuff, hanging up my affirmations, and everything like that. The contractions started getting closer and closer. By the time they were four minutes apart, I called my doula and I had her come over. It was probably 11:00 or 11:30 p.m. at this point. I probably started active labor around 7:30 or 8:00. So she got there and by the time she got there, I could hardly answer the door. It just seemed that it was progressing so fast. I was handling them really well. I was just on my hands and knees basically the whole time. By the time she got there, they were three minutes apart, so we called my midwife and she came over around midnight. I was just like, “Can I get in the tub? I want the tub so badly.” Originally, I didn’t want any cervical checks, but she was like, “Would you want one just to make sure you are far enough along to where it would be a good idea to get into the tub?” I consented to that and she said I was 8-9 centimeters. We were all stoked and all celebrating. We thought that it was going to be sometime soon. So I got into the tub and was vocalizing through the contractions and everything. Everyone was being super supportive. I didn’t want anyone to touch me, but it was really, really awesome having the support just in the room. I learned a lot as a doula through that experience because I was like, “Gosh, I don’t always need to always be doing something. I don’t need to always be touching someone or doing anything. I can just be there holding space and it means so much.”Meagan: Yes. I was going to say that holding space is sometimes one of the most powerful tools as a doula that we can have and bring to the space. Jennifer: Absolutely. Just having that feminine energy in the room, knowing that these people are here for me and they believe in me, made it feel just so amazing. So I was in the tub and they were bringing me water and stuff. I felt fine. It was intense, but it’s just crazy looking back at both birth stories and how I wrote out the birth stories. The first one was all about pain and, “I can’t do this,” “This is so hard,” and “I’m dying.” I thought I was going to die. This time, all of my words were just, “It was so amazing.” it just flowed. It was intense, but I didn’t think it was painful, at least at this point. So I was laboring all night in that tub. Mind you, I was at 8-9 centimeters at midnight. So at 10:00 in the morning, my midwife asked to check me again, and I hadn’t progressed at all. I was just like, “Oh my god. This is crazy. I haven’t slept. Nothing’s happening.” I wasn’t feeling the urge to push and my contractions, I did notice at the moment, were spacing out. I was just like, “What is the deal?” I couldn’t pee by myself. I eventually peed a little bit. It was just so hard for me. I felt like I couldn’t do it and my midwife was like, “You know, nothing is wrong. We could stay here as long as you want to, but do you want to? I don’t want to force you. You’re doing great, but do you feel like you’re suffering?” Because she could tell. The energy was shifting at that point. She was like, “Why don’t we go do some side-lying releases on the bed and we will see if that helps?”There are so many things that I wish I could have done, but you know, when you are laboring, you can’t doula yourself. Meagan: No, exactly. That’s what I was talking about earlier. Even as a doula, you can’t doula yourself. It’s so weird. Jennifer: Yes. Meagan: There was a time where I should have been like, “I should get up on hands and knees and do shaking the apples with the rebozo.” It wasn’t in my mind. I didn’t think about it and I didn’t have my doulas there quite yet. I had my cousin and I could have had her do that, but I just wasn’t in that space. Jennifer: Yes, yeah. When you are in labor land, you can’t think logically. You are just thinking of what’s happening now. Meagan: Mhmm, yep. Exactly. Jennifer: So that was a bummer, but we did the side-lying releases and that’s when things became painful. I did ten contractions on each side and I was just like, “Nope. Nope. I’m going to go take a nap. This is what’s happening. I need a nap.” So I had this in my head that I was going to go to the hospital and take a nap there, even though I was fully dilated and that clearly wasn’t going to happen, but that’s what I wanted to do. So they packed up all of my things for me and got in the car. Wyatt, my husband, had the windows down and I was roaring through these contractions. We were at these red lights and I was like, “Oh my god, these people. I don’t even know what they are thinking right now,” but I didn’t care. We pulled up to the hospital and I walked in. We weren’t supposed to be there. They called ahead of time, but I was just walking through the entrance, leaning over on things and making all of these crazy noises. Everyone was staring and trying to get me to sign papers. I was just like, “Dude, no.” We got into triage and stayed there for what felt like forever, but it turned out to be, I think, two hours altogether before I got this epidural that I thought would save my life and let me sleep. My head space was thinking, “I’m not going to get a vaginal birth if I don’t get rest,” because I had been up all night doing this. I had been dilated almost fully all night. It was just so tiring. So I got this epidural and it failed. 100%, it failed. I was just so bummed out because I was like, “What about my nap? I was going to take a nap. I need this nap!”They were just like, “No. That’s not going to happen.” The doctor there broke my water. My water hadn’t broken yet. Not something I wanted, but at this point, I was like, “Do whatever.” He was like, “Well, it looks like we are going to have a baby. Start pushing.” I didn’t feel the urge to push, but I had been dilated for so long. I just went along with what they said. I pushed and at this point, my legs were getting numb, but I still felt that the contractions were getting more intense. It numbed my legs, so I got stuck on my back, but I could still feel everything. It just made everything painful. I couldn’t be in my positions anymore. I couldn’t move. At this point, I’m screaming my lungs out, telling my husband, “I am not doing this for one more second. Just cut this baby out of me. I can’t do this.” He was just so supportive and amazing and looking at me straight in the eyes. He had tears in his eyes and he was just like, “You are doing this. You are going to do this. You can. You can do this.”The nurse next to me was like, “I’m not letting you go into a section. You’re way too close. You are going to do this.”Meagan: Aww. Jennifer: The doctor as well. I was like, “No. Just get him out. Can you just pull him out?” Him, but I didn’t know it was a boy. He was like, “Nope. Nope. You’re going to do this all by yourself. You’re going to get this baby out.” I pushed for two hours forcefully which was definitely not something I wanted to do, but it happened and eventually, he started crowning with the doctor’s manual manipulation. He was having to reach his hands in because my son was OP and his head was kinked to one side. That explains why he didn’t want to come out. But eventually, he came out. My husband got to announce, “It’s a boy.” We were just bawling. We couldn’t believe that it happened. It was the best moment of my whole life. It was the sweetest thing ever. I just couldn’t believe it. Everything made sense once he came out. I got that moment that I missed with my other son. It was really awesome because this doctor was so amazing. He was asking as I was crowning, “Everything is really tight. You’re going to tear. Can I cut you?” I was like, “Can you not cut me?” I was like, “Can you not?” He was like, “Okay.” No pushback at all. I tore naturally and my husband was like, “Hey, please don’t wipe him down at all,” and they didn’t. They didn’t wipe him down. They didn’t touch him. He was screaming and he was on my chest. The placenta came out right away. It must have been three minutes because someone said the word “Pitocin” and I was like, “No, thank you. I don’t want Pitocin.” We just skipped that part and they were like, “You know, usually we do it for hemorrhage management.” I was like, “Yeah, but I’m not hemorrhaging, so can we skip it?”Meagan: Yeah. Jennifer: They were like, “Sure, yeah. That’s fine.” They were like, “Is it okay if we cut the cord?” I was like, “Can you just put the whole placenta on my stomach?” And they did that. They didn’t cut the cord at all. They just left the placenta attached to the baby on my belly for 30 minutes. It was so awesome. I got to see everything in its glory. Everything I missed the first time was happening. They were like, “Well, I’m assuming you don’t want any of these newborn procedures, right?” I was like, “No,” and they were like, “Okay, fine.” They didn’t give me any pushback. I was GBS+. I chose with a lot of thought. I decided not to get antibiotics and we didn’t do any of the newborn procedures after. No one gave us any trouble at all. We were just so respected and it felt like family around us. No one made us feel bad for our decisions at all and I profusely thanked the team. I was like, “Thank you so much for letting me still be in charge of this.” Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Jennifer: The doctor was like, “I wish more that doctors let women have their stories the way they want them to. I wish that more women were respected.” I just don’t think he’ll ever know what kind of impact he made on me and my husband. It was just something we never thought we would get in a hospital. The last thing I wanted to add was that even though I was horrified about ending up at a hospital, every dream I had about this baby– I had so many dreams that I was having this beautiful, vaginal birth. The weird thing was that they were all in the hospital. Every single dream, he was born so peacefully in a hospital. I was just thinking, “Why can’t I picture this happening at home?” But I feel like, in the end, it was just the way it was meant to be. I’m grateful for the whole experience. Meagan: That’s so awesome. So awesome. Jennifer: Yeah, it was so amazing. Thank you. Meagan: I love that, especially going from having a transfer, that even though you were in a new environment, they really tried to keep the same feel and desires in place, and they listened. They weren’t like, “Nope. We have to do this. Nope. We’re going to do this. It’s policy.” It was like, “Okay, you don’t want this? We don’t have to do this.”Jennifer: Exactly.Meagan: That’s really how it is, but it’s not how it happens a lot of the time. Jennifer: Yes. Meagan: It’s okay to say, “No, I don’t want that.” Whether you are planning a home birth or not, you don’t have to have these things happen just because you’re in the hospital. You don’t.Jennifer: Yes. Meagan: And so that’s something I wanted to also send a reminder about because you can advocate for yourself. You really can. Jennifer: Yes. Yeah, and I thought that it was going to be a fight. The best surprise was that it was a respectful, “Okay,” instead of, “You know, you really should do this. Your baby could die.” Blah blah blah blah. I know the risks. I came in knowing the risks and benefits to everything and no one pushed back on it. They let me do what I wanted to do as his mom. Meagan: Mhmm, mhmm. I love that. I love, love, love that. Congratulations. Jennifer: Thank you. Meagan: Yeah. We have a blog all about how to choose where to birth. I want to talk about how even if you choose to birth at home or a birth center or out of the hospital, and then it happens to go back to the hospital, that’s okay. It’s hard because so many times in our world, we think, “Oh, we failed. We didn’t get to do this.” I even worried about that. I was in labor for 42 hours and things were just moving really slowly. I was stalling out and hanging out there. I was at a 4 and I think at a 6. They were doing NSTs on me at the birth center. I was thinking, “They’re going to transfer me. This is it. I’m going to transfer.”At that moment, my doula looked at me and said, “Yeah, that’s something that’s being discussed but nothing is happening yet.” In my mind, I said, “Okay. If this happens, you have to be okay with it. That’s okay. You’re just going to change locations. That’s it.” And that’s okay. It’s okay to change locations, so I want to remind anyone out there if for some reason, a home birth or a birth center transfers to the hospital, know that it’s okay and you didn’t do anything wrong. Nothing failed. It’s just that the story is changing. You’re changing the page and it’s going to a new place. It’s okay to have changed. Jennifer: Yeah, and I think it’s also important to remember that your story is 50% yours and 50% your baby’s. Meagan: Yeah. Jennifer: Your baby might need something different than you need or something different than you want. You can’t control someone else’s destiny.Meagan: Absolutely, yes. Yes. I love that. 50% yours and 50% your baby’s. I love that so much. So yeah, if you want to read more about home birth after Cesarean options or HBAC options, we have a blog about it in deciding what’s best, hospital or home. It’s different for everybody. We encourage all people to follow their hearts, their minds, their guts, and what resonates with them. If a home birth doesn’t resonate and a hospital does, great, and if a hospital birth doesn’t and a home birth does, great. This is your birth. Your birth. You get to choose. So congratulations again and thank you so much for sharing your story with us. Jennifer: Thank you so much for having me.ClosingInterested in sharing your VBAC story on the podcast? Submit your story at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“Once I knew what it was, that helped. It’s a physiological thing. There’s nothing actually wrong with me. My experience with it was pretty extreme. Our bodies are so amazing and they serve us so well, but there are differences for everybody.”Brenda’s six births include a medicated hospital birth, a crash Cesarean, an unmedicated VBAC, an HBAC, an emergency C-section, and a gentle, planned Cesarean. Her stories are wildly different but all inspiring in their own ways!Brenda also gets raw and vulnerable with us as she shares her intense postpartum experiences with Dysphoric Milk Ejection Reflex (D-MER). Her choice to fight for healing in a positive way has helped her come out of the fog every time.Have you experienced D-MER?Additional linksThe VBAC Link Blog: How to Plan for a Natural Family-Centered CesareanThe VBAC Link Facebook CommunityHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Hello, hello everybody. Welcome to The VBAC Link podcast. This is Meagan, your host, which is so weird to say that it’s just me by myself. I don’t know how long it’s going to take to get used to that, but here I am and I’m still so excited to be with you. We have an awesome episode today. We have our friend, Brenda, and she has a lot of stories to tell you. I am so excited to learn more about all of her birth journeys. She is a mom of six and has had a mixture of vaginal, unmedicated, medicated, home birth, VBAC, and planned Cesarean. All of the things, so we are so excited to dive into her stories today. Review of the WeekMeagan: As usual, we always have a Review of the Week and I am going to be reading that for you today. This is from a mama in Australia. I don’t even know how to actually how to say her username. It’s awesomebarbie. Sorry if I’m botching that, love. Her topic says, “Two angels sent from above.” It says, “Hey, ladies. I’m from Sydney, Australia and I’ve been a silent fan for months now. Ever since having my C-section on November 19th, I have been obsessed with achieving a vaginal birth. Luckily for me, I fell pregnant on July 20th and I’m currently 33 weeks.”“Listening to your podcast has encouraged me to be strong-minded and educated me so much. It has taught me how to self-advocate and stand up for my body. Thank you, guys. I am going for my VBAC in late March. You guys won’t need to stalk me because I will write you guys either way.”I love that because we do. We stalk you guys. “I hope to be on your show soon. Love, Wendy. Sydney, Australia.” It’s so funny because when we read reviews from the past, we do. We love to go back into The VBAC Link Community on our Facebook group and see if they have posted and what the outcome was. So thank you so much, Wendy. We love you back and we are so glad that you have been with us. Brenda’s StoryMeagan: Okay. We are going to turn the time over to Brenda. Before we do, I want to just give you a little sneak peek of what we’ve got for the little bit in the end. There’s my son in the background. So like I said in the beginning, she’s had six kiddos and something that we want to talk about at the end is gentle Cesareans. This is something that I personally had as well with my second C-section and it made all the world of a difference in my experience. And then we also wanted to talk about D-Mer. Hang in and listen to this amazing story and at the end, hang in there because we want to talk about D-Mer a little more. Okay, cute Brenda, are you ready for this? Brenda: I’m ready. Meagan: All right. Well, I will turn the time over to you. Brenda: Okay. So yeah. I’m super excited to talk. I mean, who doesn’t love talking about their children’s births? And so I guess I’m just going to run through. Like you said, I have six kids and each birth has been totally different. My first was over the estimated due date. I kind of went into labor, but I was not progressing very quickly. I basically was induced because they gave me Pitocin. So that one–Meagan: Spontaneous, but induced. Brenda: Yeah and I was a first-time mom. I had been in early labor for two days. I was exhausted. So yeah. 3 centimeters and I was pretty much panicking with the pain. I got an epidural which actually, I think, helped me relax. There were some complications with him. He had aspirated meconium so he had to leave for– I don’t know. I don’t remember how long, but it was fairly uneventful. For my second birth, there are 18 months between the two boys. I went in to be induced because I was worried about him being over and aspirating meconium, so I was like, “Okay, from this experience, I’m going to do this with the next one.” I was still not super informed really about anything. So I went in to be induced. Everything was going really well. I think right around 6 centimeters, his heart rate started crashing. That happened multiple times, so they took me back and put me under general which was really scary. It was really, really scary. I remember looking up at the nurse who was next to me. I just remember looking at her just like, “Can you please pray for me? I am so scared right now.” And yeah. Then I woke up. My first memory was that I was holding this baby. We didn’t know the gender so I was like, “Oh, is this a boy or a girl?” It was just that you are thankful for it and you are thankful for everything turning out okay, but after that experience, I was really disappointed with it. I was really disappointed that I had this experience. It was traumatic and I had mild postpartum depression after I had my son, Lincoln.And so after that, I was like, “Okay. There has to be something better than this.” I did not like that. And so I started down the road of, “How can I have a better birth?” I completely nerded out on everything. I got pregnant with my third and was just, I mean, I read all of the books. Ina May, I watched all of the movies. I was just like, “I really, really want to have a VBAC.” I got a doula. I started doing all of the things I could do to prepare for that. I went into labor. I think it was five days after my estimated due date. I tried to stay at home as long as possible. I went to the hospital and I was already 8 centimeters. Meagan: Oh!Brenda: I remember tears streaming down my face because I was like, “I think it’s going to happen. I think it’s going to happen.” And an hour and a half later, I had my third son. It was seriously the best day of my life. It was my birthday. Meagan: Aww. Brenda: Yeah. The sun was shining through the window. It was so cool and peaceful in the room. The doctor came in and he just sat at the end of the bed. I just had my baby. It was perfect. It was amazing. It was the best day of my life, one of the best days of my life. Obviously, the satisfaction of having a natural childbirth and just, “Okay. I did it.” It was empowering. Also, just the recovery, everything was so much easier, and yeah. I mean, it was awesome. I was super thankful for that. And so then when I got pregnant with my fourth son, I really was like, “You know what? That went so well.” We lived right across the street from the hospital where I had all of my kids. So I was telling my husband at the time, “Maybe we should just have a home birth.” And so I started looking into that. We had some really difficult things going on at that time and just really liked the idea of having more privacy in our home too. So I found a midwife and I went into labor. I think I was nine days over. It was kind of funny because she would check on me and I just was totally not communicating. She would be like, “How are you doing?” Because I had told her that I had started having contractions. She ended up showing up at my house and was like, “We just felt like we needed to come to check on you.” And so I ended up being 6 centimeters when she came. At that point, it was just really chill. We just hung out. I was washing my dishes and making them coffee. It was very relaxing and just, I don’t know. It was like, “I just don’t even feel like I’m in labor because this is so chill.”Meagan: So chill. That’s awesome. Brenda: Yeah. I wasn’t even in a lot of pain and it was just really awesome. I really wanted to have him in my tub, so I did go in the tub for a little bit and at that point, my contractions were getting quite a bit stronger. I was pretty tired. There was a lot of emotional stuff going on in my life at that time and I was just kind of checked out. My midwife came into the bathroom because, at that point, she kind of just stood back and let me do my thing. She checked me and I was 9.5 with a lip. She was like, “All right. Well, you have a little bit of a lip left. You can try to push a little bit, but if it doesn’t take care of it, you can stop and wait it out.” So I tried to do that for a little while and I got to the point where I was just like, “I’m done. What other option do we have?”I ended up getting out and going into my bedroom. She manually stretched my cervix while I was pushing which was extremely painful. It was probably the most difficult thing I had experienced during childbirth and very different from my VBAC in the hospital. It was obviously a really great experience and it ended up being fine. The delivery was fairly easy, I guess. I never had any tearing during any of my births. Two of my kids were over 9 pounds, and so my recovery and just the pushing had been really pretty easy for me which I am thankful for. So overall, besides the cervix stretching, it was a really good experience. So then fast forward five years. During that five years, I had gotten divorced and remarried. I had four boys and I then was pregnant with my first child, Ruby, with my husband. I was super excited to be having a girl after four boys. I was planning to VBAC. I mean, I had just assumed that’s what would happen. My provider was really supportive. I did have a little bit of hesitation because I knew that I had scarring on my cervix. It had torn when I had my son with the HBAC, and so I was feeling a little bit like, “Is that going to create issues with the delivery?” because I was reading into that and trying to learn all of the things about breaking down scar tissue. But I figured, “Well, I’ll just try, and whatever happens happens.” I think I was about four days past due. I had been having contractions for a few days. I remember being in the kitchen a couple of days before I had her and I had to stop doing what I was doing because of my abdomen. I had a contraction and it just was really painful which was really bizarre to me because it came out of nowhere. I just kept going and they went away. For the next couple of days, I had really low energy. I’m like, “Well, yeah. I’m having a baby. This is common. You can get flu-like symptoms and clean out and all of this stuff.” And so, yeah. Four days after my estimated due date, I just didn’t feel good. I felt flu-like symptoms but again, I thought, “Well, I am having a baby.” My husband and my parents were over and they were telling me, “You don’t look very well. Do you not feel good?” And I’m like, “Well no, but I’m super tired. I’m not sleeping.” I forgot to mention that I also was very sick with the majority of my pregnancies, so horrible indigestion. Throwing up all of the time, just coming out of both ends all of the time, so I wasn’t in the healthiest spot, but I was like, “Yeah. I’m really tired and I don’t feel good, but whatever.” So I lay down and the only time I’ve ever taken a nap in all of my pregnancies was this time. I fell asleep on my bed for over an hour and a half which was so crazy. I woke up and my husband was like, “I really think that we should take your temperature because you are acting funny,” which is another thing. I hallucinate when I have a fever and get super weird. I was like, “Okay, whatever.” So he took my temperature and I was running a fever. I was like, “Well, I’m fine. I’m just really tired.” He was like, “No. I really think that we should go to the hospital.” And at that point, my sisters were involved. They don’t live in the area, but they were involved and they were all side-texting him like, “Brenda needs to go to the hospital. Brenda needs to go to the hospital. This is making us nervous.” I definitely was declining rapidly. I did not feel well at well. I couldn’t really walk. My abdomen just hurt really, really bad. Meagan: That’s so scary. Brenda: It was really weird, but I still was just like, “Whatever. I just am really tired.” They finally convinced me to go to the hospital so I’m like, “Fine. I’ll just go there and get some medicine and then I need to get better so I can have a baby.” So it’s thirty minutes from our house to the hospital. From the time we left to the time we got to the hospital, I was a complete mess. Any time my husband would go over any bump or anything, I just was in so much pain. My abdomen hurt so bad. I can’t really even describe the feeling, but it was so painful. I remember getting there and I was so mad at him because I was thinking, “Why are you going over these potholes? This is so painful.” And I was thinking like, “I’ve had four children. What is going on? This is really weird. I should be able to handle this and I’m not handling this.” So we get into the emergency room and by this time, I’m shivering. It’s summer in Minnesota, so it was probably 90 degrees and humid. I was in black leggings and a sweatshirt and I was freezing. So we get in there and the ER lady was like, “Are you here for labor and delivery?” And I was like, “No. I’m not.” I’m here. I need to see a doctor because I need some medicine. I was super belligerent. I’m not that way. I’m a very passive, quiet person, but I was basically almost yelling at anyone I came into contact with, which, I don’t really remember any of this. They wanted to put me in a wheelchair and I refused. I wanted to walk up the stairs. I was just being really weird and totally out of character. And so we got up to labor and delivery and they said, “Yeah. You’re running a fever and we are going to give you some fluids. We’ll admit you because eventually, you’ll have your baby, but we know you want to have a VBAC so we will just take it slow.” Over the course of, I think it was maybe twenty minutes, they were trying to put an IV in which was not working, I guess. It was another thing I don’t really remember. It made me realize how out of it I was because I guess they had multiple people come in and try to put my IV in. There was blood everywhere and I don’t remember any of it. And so they came in and they were like, “We are going to do a rectal just to get a more accurate read,” and my internal temperature was pushing 107. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Brenda: Yeah. I was exhibiting other signs of sepsis. The doctor came in. I was going into septic shock, so they brought me back and did a C-section. It was a really crazy thing. She ended up being– they did come in. I don’t remember this either, but they told my husband, “We don’t really know what the outcome could be because this is really serious.”It was scary for him, but he did great. He was awesome. I was completely out of it and saying really weird things because of all of the medication I was given. He was just really great and everything turned out fine. She was healthy and as soon as I was cleaned out– my uterus was completely full of green fluid which makes sense about the pain. It was completely infected. Everything was just infected. And so they actually washed me out which was really weird, but as soon as I got back to the room, within probably several hours, I was completely back as far as temperature-wise. My color had returned. When the doctor came in, he was like, “I don’t even recognize you from the person that came in.”It just was really crazy how one, how quickly things can change, and then two, just how little control we have in those circumstances. I had no control over anything and it was completely different than my previous experiences. I was not expecting to have a C-section because I was septic. I had never even heard of that before. I felt like my recovery with that was fine. I don’t think anyone enjoys recovering from a C-section, but I had a really great support system and my husband is really helpful and hands-on, so I felt like it went well. I felt like the postpartum period was good. I don’t know. It just seemed like she entered our family and it was awesome. It was super awesome. I didn’t feel like I was impacted much by her birth as far as being traumatized or anything so that was great. So then I got pregnant again. There are about two years in between Ruby and her sister. Her younger sister, Bridget. And so I always thought, I hadn’t heard too much about a VBAC after two Cesareans but it was definitely something I was interested in. As I started looking around and trying to find a provider that would support that, it was pretty much like hitting dead ends everywhere. Oh, and it was during COVID. There was a birth center in Minneapolis that would normally do it but because of COVID, they weren’t able to do any VBACs. If you were a VBAC, you would have to go to the hospital that they worked with. COVID had put a ton of restrictions on that, so that was out. And so I ended up finding a provider who was an hour and a half away and she was amazing. She was so reassuring and so positive that this was something I could do. And so from probably four months to eight months, I was seeing her and making the drive. I would go to the appointments and feel really positive about it. I felt really positive. I felt, “Yes, I can do this. This is amazing. I’m going to have a–” my plan was to have the VBAC and I could do a water birth at their center. I could basically deliver my own baby. I was thinking, “I’m going to have a VBAC after two Cesareans and it’s going to be amazing and this is going to be the grand finale of all of my birthing experiences.” I thought, “Well, why not? Because I have had VBACs. I know I can do it.”And then I would leave and just start feeling uneasy again which I know can happen and I’ve heard other stories, listening to other birth stories like, yeah, you doubt and then you go back and you feel like, “Okay. I can do this. I can do this.” So I basically was on that rollercoaster my whole pregnancy and wasn’t really seeing her very much because of COVID, like, minimal visits or whatever. And so I think it was 35 weeks, 36 weeks. I went to an appointment. It was fine. I left and I just had this horrible, uneasy feeling in my chest. I looked at my husband and I’m like, “I shouldn’t do this.” He’s like, “What do you mean?” I’m like, “This is not the right choice for this baby.” And he was like, “What are you talking about? This is what you want. We’re doing this. You can do it.” And I just was like, “No. This is not the right choice and we need to change our plan.” I just started crying and he was trying to be helpful like, “Okay, are these hormones? Is this where we need to have another pep talk with our midwife? What’s going on? How can I help you?” But it was just this feeling, that mom instinct like, “I need to do something different.” And so I called the OBGYN that I had with Ruby and I just asked if I could come in. So I went in and I just told her everything I was feeling. She was so amazing and so supportive and just tried to even still give me options on having a VBAC after two Cesareans. She couldn’t do it, but she could try to find other options. But at that point, I just felt so strongly that I needed to have a scheduled Cesarean that I just was like, “You know what? No. I appreciate you and advocating for me, but this is what I want to do. I know that this is the right choice,” which was very weird to get to the place of accepting that, but I felt total peace about it. She actually started talking to me about the gentle Cesarean and basically said, “These are the things that I can do,” so that was really cool to be able to have a say in that. She was awesome. She pulled Bridget out very gently to help mimic coming out of the birth canal and to try to squeeze the fluids out. She delayed the clamping as long as she could. They put Bridget on my chest right away and so overall, it was a completely different experience than what I had with my other C-sections, obviously. Obviously, I would have wanted to have a VBAC, but it just was very peaceful. I felt respected and I just felt very peaceful knowing it was the right choice for that. And so, yeah. Those were all of my births. I guess the next thing would be postpartum. D-MER and PostpartumMeagan: Yeah. I want to just say, way to go following that intuition. We talk about it all the time here on this podcast and it’s something that is so hard to sometimes understand and decipher whether it’s just fear or if it’s truly intuition. Your husband was like, “Wait. No, no, no, no. This is not what you want.” And you were like, “No. It’s not necessarily what I want. It’s what I feel is right.” And it’s so hard. I think it was Julie or somebody who told me a long time ago and I swear by this because I’ve tuned in. It’s something that’s this weird thing. This intuition will not place fear. I don’t know how to explain it. Intuition will not be fearful. It’s just factual, right? It’s, “This is what I should do,” but it’s not fear.Brenda: Yeah, yeah. Meagan: It’s hard to decipher through that, but yeah. So let’s talk about postpartum. Let’s talk more about your postpartum journey. Brenda: Yeah, so after I had Bridget, I definitely struggled more and basically went through this period of spiraling into this what I now understand as postpartum psychosis which was really scary because I had no idea what was going on, but I essentially became unsafe. I couldn’t drive because I would want to run into traffic or I couldn’t be left alone with my kids. I couldn’t shower. I was completely debilitated and it was really, really scary. And so I had that happen. Thankfully, I have a really amazing support system that rallied around me and I was able to get help, counseling, medication, and family support fairly quickly which helped me get out of that initial psychosis but then shortly after that, my dad passed away from COVID. He had actually come out to help me. He and my mom had come out to help me with my postpartum and then he got COVID and died. So that was really, really hard and threw a wrench in everything because then it was like, “Okay. Well, now I’m grieving, but also, I’m not really stable.” And so that’s been my journey for the last year is trying to come out of that. It was a combination of help, asking for help, counseling, and changing medication which is another thing. I’ve never been on medication. I don’t take stuff. I’m very pretty naturally minded, so that was a really humbling experience like, “I need help,” and “Why doesn’t anyone talk about this? What is going on with me?” So I feel like now, I am coming out of the fog but it’s been a really, really long journey that can be connected with the D-MER which, if you people don’t know, it’s Dysphoric Milk Ejection Reflex. I’ve had it with all of my kids starting with my first. My family doctor was the one who first introduced me to D-MER because I told them about the feelings that I was having. He had told me, “Yeah. It’s this condition not talked about, but it’s basically the dopamine is inaccurate. Whatever is being released, there is a glitch.” D-MER can vary for women, but in my case, it was 15 seconds before my milk let down, I had this horrible, horrible feeling where I just wanted to die. It’s this all-encompassing feeling. It lasts for probably a minute and then goes away. Every single time I would nurse and with every single one of my babies, it has happened. It’s just a crazy, crazy thing and the only thing that I’ve found to help is once I knew what it was, that helped knowing what it was. It’s a physiological thing. There’s nothing actually wrong with me. My experience with it, I would say, was pretty extreme. I think just realizing that our bodies are so amazing and they serve us so well, but there are differences for everybody. My body clearly has some hormonal glitches just with the C-section and the D-MER and all of these different hormonal chemical things. It was like a perfect storm for the psychosis. I’ve come to that conclusion. But yeah. The D-MER is really interesting to me because it can also vary with women. I mean, everybody has some. It goes away. For some, it’s only with a couple of the kids and for mine, it’s just been a consistent thing with each of my kids. Meagan: Yeah and like you said, it’s something that not a lot of people talk about, but we have a lot of clients, right? I’ve been a doula for a while and it’s like, “I don’t like breastfeeding. It makes me anxious.” They explain these feelings and it’s just not really talked about. I don’t even feel like a lot of these doctors are saying, “Hey, this is a thing,” either. So when I saw that, I just was like, “Oh, I want to talk about that a little bit. I want her to talk about that,” because it’s unique and it’s something that does happen. What would you say is one of the things that really has helped you through all of that? How long did you nurse your babies?Brenda: I self-led weaned all of my kids so it ranged from 2-2.5 years maybe. Meagan: Wow. Brenda: My daughter is almost two and we are still weaning. Meagan: Yeah, so do you still have those feelings, or as baby gets bigger and you do it more, does it fade away? Brenda: Yeah. It’s definitely more extreme in the beginning when you are producing so much more milk. Yeah. Now that she’s older, it would be less, but I still have the feeling like, “Oh, I feel like crap. Okay, my milk is going to come in.” It’s so weird. That is one of my coping mechanisms is that I would think of it as, “Okay, I can look at this as a positive thing. I can look at this as a warning that my milk is coming in,” especially in those first few months when you are constantly leaking so I’d be like, “Okay, where is my baby? I need to nurse before I leak all over.” I tried to make this game out of it because there was literally nothing I could do about it unless I wanted to stop nursing. Meagan: Yeah, yeah. So wild. I also just want to talk really quickly before we end about family-centered Cesareans. With my second, I wasn’t necessarily wanting another Cesarean. I really wanted to VBAC, but that’s just not how the story went. Something that I loved so much was my husband remembered me saying, “If I’m going to have another C-section, I really want to be a part of it.” And so my provider did very similar things and really made me want to be a part of it, and not even to the extent that yours did. I think it’s just important for you to know, listeners, that it is okay for you to ask for a different, non-traditional experience in the OR. It’s okay to say, “Hey, do you have a clear drape for a delivery? Is it okay for me to pull my own baby out?” Some moms scrub and sterilize their own hands. “It is okay? Let’s play music. I want music by my head.” Bring a speaker.I watched it in a mirror and not everybody wants to watch their C-section. I’m kind of weirdly one of those people. I’m weird and I did. I really enjoyed watching it. It felt like I was more a part of my birth watching it. Letting an extra birthing person, a doula, or a photographer be present, cord clamping, or at least milking the cord as long as you possibly can, keeping the vernix on the baby, not trying to wipe them off. There are so many things. There’s vaginal seeding and breastfeeding in the OR. I’m going to put this in the show notes. It’s our blog about family-centered Cesareans. That will be in the show notes. So if you want to know about more options for family-centered Cesareans, check out the show notes and give it a click because there are a lot of options. Even if C-section is desired and it’s like, “Hey, I want this planned C-section,” that’s okay too, but there are definitely more ways to make your C-section even more special and gentle, so definitely check it out. Thank you so much for sharing all of your beautiful stories. I think they are amazing. I think they are each unique and I love that through all of them– you were sick. It was more your family. They were like, “You are not normal right now.” But you were following your intuition. You were following your gut and you were like, “Okay, something is different. I need something different.” I just want to say congratulations on all of your births and thank you so much for being with us today. Brenda: Yeah. Thank you for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“Every baby, every delivery, and every birth is so different.” Rebecca’s first birth was a smooth, textbook experience. Less than 12 months later, Rebecca arrived at the hospital ready to deliver her second baby girl. However, after four hours of pushing, unmedicated manual rotation, and scary heart rate readings, Rebecca knew she needed to consent to a C-section. In surgery, Rebecca was told her pelvis was too small to ever birth a baby vaginally even though she already had a prior vaginal birth! She also experienced a cervical laceration. Rebecca was left traumatized after such a drastically different birth experience. With her next baby, Rebecca fought for healing and for her TOLAC. Her third delivery was quite unlike either of the two previous deliveries. We can’t wait for you to hear about her wild ride and to learn from her particularly unique experiences!Additional linksIntrapartum Cervical Lacerations PubMed ArticleThe VBAC Link Blog: Special ScarsSpecial Scars, Special Hope Facebook GroupHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Good morning, everybody. You are listening to The VBAC Link. Today is the first episode without Julie and let me tell you, I am already missing her so much. It’s going to be a little different not having this podcast with her. I was just telling our guest today how weird– I don’t even know what episode number we are on right now because Julie was such the backbone. She did all of the technical, little-detail things and I am going to have to get used to that.So bear with me as I am weaning into doing all of the podcast stuff by myself. Today, we have our friend, Rebecca, and she is going to share her story. You guys, she has a special scar, or a cervical extension I should say, that ended up turning into special scar. We don't have a ton of these episodes on the podcast. They are not as common and one of the reasons why I am personally excited for her to share her story is because they are not as common but they are still possible. We really want to get the word out there to do your research and do what’s comfortable for you, but know that it is possible.Something that’s also a little different about her story is that it was from the cervical extension. I can’t wait for her to share a little bit about this. We are going to talk about what a cervical extension even means, what that looks like, and what it could mean for future vaginal births. But of course, we have a Review of the Week. Normally I would turn the time over to Julie, but we don’t have Julie, so I am going to read you a Review of the Week. Review of the WeekMeagan: Today’s review is by Sarah and she said, “One month ago, I had a successful VBAC induction just 18 months after my Cesarean section. I almost called to schedule a repeat on my due date because I was so scared. I found your podcast and listened to it for two days straight. It gave me the courage to go through with induction and I am so glad I did. I’m hoping more people find this as a resource.”Oh, that’s awesome. It looks like she emailed us that. We love reviews. As you know, we have Apple Podcasts. We have Spotify. We have Google play. We have just Google. You can leave us a review on Google. But just like Sarah did, you can email us a review. So if you’ve had a good experience or something that you would like to share with the world, please email us. Feel free and we will slot this into the review and maybe read it on the next podcast. Rebecca’s StoryMeagan: Okay, Ms. Rebecca. We are so excited to have you. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to share the stories of your three kiddos, right? Do you have three?Rebecca: Yep, three girls. Meagan: Three girls! You’re a girl mama. That is so awesome. And remind me, they are all pretty close like 4, 3, and 1?Rebecca: Yep. Yep, that’s right. Meagan: Yes. 4, 3, and 1. That is so awesome. So you are really busy in your life.Rebecca: Yeah, just a little bit. Meagan: Yes. Oh my goodness. Are you guys planning on having more? Do you have any idea if you are wanting any more?Rebecca: I’ve always liked even numbers, so I’ll probably have one more but we joke that each one gets spaced out further and further apart. So not anytime soon at least. Meagan: Yes. But hey, you know what? Julie had this too where all of her kids are really, really close. It might be chaotic right now when they are little, but then they are the best of friends and they are all in the same time. My sister and I are three years apart. It’s still not that very far, but I love that when they are really close, you are always going to school together, you are in the same friend zones and in the same types of things. It might be chaotic when they are little but it will be so fun I bet.Rebecca: It will be worth it hopefully.Meagan: It will be so awesome. So awesome. Well, cool. Well, thank you for joining us today and I would love to turn the time over to you to tell us about these beautiful girls’ births. Rebecca: Okay. Well, my first birth was very uncomplicated. Pretty much the only strange thing that happened was that my water broke at 37 weeks in the middle of the night. I was totally unprepared because everyone says that first-time moms go until 42 weeks, and so I just wasn’t even in my mind thinking that was possible. But it was a great birth. It lasted about 10 hours, labor did. It was unmedicated. I didn’t have any tearing and it was just kind of textbook, I guess, in that way. Then, when my daughter was about 4 months old, I started coming down with what I thought was the flu, and then I also started having some food aversions which was weird. And so I asked my doula. I was like, “Is this normal postpartum? Are my hormones regulating or what’s going on?” And she was like, “Rebecca, you need to go take a pregnancy test.”Meagan: You’re like, “Uhhh.”Rebecca: It was positive. I was in denial. She said she knew for a week before I did what was happening. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Rebecca: Yeah. I was just in denial. So that put their due dates within 12 months of one another. So both October and it was just a very difficult pregnancy emotionally and physically. I had to give up nursing because I’m one of those who dry up when I’m pregnant. I just felt a lot of guilt. My husband seemed to be completely unaware of how hard it was going to be where I was like, “Do you understand having two kids 12 months apart? This is going to be very hard.” Anyway, so with her, I was expecting to go into labor early. 37 weeks came, rolled around, and no baby. 38 weeks came. 39 and finally, after my due date, I went into labor which already felt like I was three weeks overdue just because my first daughter came three weeks early. It was just so mental at that point. We got to the hospital and I was already 9 centimeters so we thought this baby was coming. I pushed for four hours and she would not come out. They called in the senior midwife and she was like, “The baby is OP.” And so they were having me do all of the things. What’s it called? The Walchers?Meagan: Oh yeah. That’s intense. Rebecca: Oh, it was terrible. It was really painful, but they could just not get her to turn into a favorable position. They tried manually turning her and I still didn’t have the epidural at that point. Finally, the midwife was wanting to call it and I said, “What are my options?” She was like, “A C-section.” I was like, “Well, how about we do an epidural and see if that relaxes me, and then see if you can try turning the baby?”At that point, I was just willing to try whatever so they agreed. They let me sleep for a few hours and then came back in. It was the middle of the night and they started manually turning. She was responding to it, but then all of a sudden, she just started having heart decels down to the thirties and they freaked out. They were like, “Okay, we are not doing that. We will let you try to push her out sunny-side up essentially.”And so I pushed and she started descending, but then her heart did the same thing down to the thirties.Meagan: Wow, that is scary. That is scary.Rebecca: Yes. It still, I mean, I’ve worked through it in therapy now, but yeah. Just the room, you could just tell the mood changed. They were just staring at the monitor with her heart rate. It was at that point where I was like, “Okay. We’ve done it. We’ve given it our all. This is the right call.” So they prepped me for a C-section. Overall, it wasn’t terrible. They didn’t strap my arms down or anything. She had descended so far down, so they had to come back through and push her back up. During that, my cervix tore.She came out screaming. My husband told me it was a girl because we don’t like to find out beforehand. Then, they were taking out my placenta and I heard the midwife and the OB. They were both like, “That’s weird. I’ve never seen anything like that.” They were just talking back and forth about something going on.Meagan: And you’re listening to them. Rebecca: Yes. I know my baby’s okay because I can hear her and I think I asked, “What’s going on?” The midwife was like, “Oh, I’ll come and show you once you’re in recovery. I’ll show you your placenta.” So they started stitching me back up and I’ll get back to the placenta, but they started stitching me back up and the OB said– he was one of those where he’s a great surgeon but he doesn’t have bedside manner. He made some comment like, “Yeah, you shouldn’t waste your time trying to VBAC. Your pelvis is way too small.” I got so angry. I’m on the operating table and I said, “I’ve already had a vaginal birth.” You could tell he was caught off guard. Obviously, you didn’t read anything about me before you gave me the surgery. Meagan: And this diagnosis of, “You will never have a vaginal birth.” That happens so often! Rebecca: I know. It makes me so angry when I see that because yeah, obviously, my body has pushed out a baby. Meagan: Well, yeah. Even mine hadn’t and he was like, “Your pelvis is too small.” The thing is that I easily could have believed him, right? Rebecca: Yeah.Meagan: When you’re laying there, cut open, vulnerable, and you’re told, “Don’t ever do this. Your pelvis is too small,” you want to naturally just believe these providers. I’m not saying that these providers are ever totally wrong or anything, but they give these diagnoses and we just believe it. Rebecca: Yeah. Meagan: So it’s hard.Rebecca: I mean, yeah. I don’t know what he was using to make that judgment, but it was obviously wrong as we are going to see. My body had already done it, too. Meagan: Yeah. Rebecca: I think that when I said that, he tried to recover it by saying, “Well, how much did your last baby weigh?” I told him and he said, “Well, I guess your magic number is somewhere between your first baby’s weight and your second baby’s weight.” I was just thinking, “I don’t think that’s how it works.” Meagan: Uh-uh. No. Sorry, dude. Rebecca: Yeah, exactly. So yeah. He got reprimanded, I think, for that one by the midwives. It made me so angry. But anyway, in recovery, the midwives brought my placenta to show me. It was wild. She said that she had never seen anything like it. It was a bivalve placenta and there was a velamentous cord insertion in between the connecting tissue. So it was just very exposed and apparently, I had vasa previa too. Their assumption was that when my baby was turning, it was compressing the cord and causing the heart decels essentially.And so they said it could have ruptured during surgery, or sorry, if I had actually pushed her out, it could have been pretty bad. So it was really crazy. She took pictures of it and texted it to all the people. She thought it was two placentas. The OB disagreed so the jury, I guess, is still out on what it was, but I had had a lot of bleeding during the pregnancy and they had assumed a vanishing twin or something along those lines early on. They couldn’t quite figure it out. It just kind of stopped. So they don’t know what exactly was going on with the placenta if it was just, yep. It was crazy. But that was my second birth and it just was very traumatic. After having such a smooth, textbook first birth and feeling so empowered to have this 12 months later was just devastating. Thankfully, my doula recommended therapy. I got into a therapist and really was just able to work through that birth trauma which is one of my big recommendations to people who have unexpected C-sections is to work through your birth story. There is so much healing in that. I am now able to look back at the birth and it’s not necessarily the happiest day to look back on, but I’m able to see it and not cry whenever I talk about it. Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Rebecca: Yeah. So that was my second birth, and then now leading into my third, I was determined to have a VBAC. One, to prove it to that OB who told me my pelvis was too small, but just for myself. I knew how much I loved my first birth and I just really wanted that again. After we got pregnant, in one of my first appointments, I was just chatting with the midwife and I said, “Oh yeah. The OB mentioned something about a cervical tear during the C-section. Does that affect anything?”Her face changed and she goes, “I’m going to get your OP report and read it. I’ll be back in a few minutes.” She came back in and said that I had a low-lying, transverse scar, but I had a midline cervical extension. So essentially, my cervix had torn and it had torn up to where my C-section scar was, so it was in the shape of a T.Meagan: So did that cervical scar tear up into your uterus?Rebecca: Yes. Meagan: Okay.Rebecca: But not into the contracting part. Meagan: Gotcha. Rebecca: So it was still low. But it was, yeah. It was very hard for me to figure out what exactly it was because I was trying to Google all of these words like, “What does this mean?” And then they were finally able to explain it to me. It was shaped like a T essentially. And she said that she seemed very confident that I was going to risk out of having a trial of labor and I was devastated. I was really upset, but she ultimately left it up to one of the OBs in the practice to sign off on. I knew I was going to see him at my next appointment, so I just spent a ton of time researching. I was texting all of my friends that are doctors. Nobody knew what it meant. I was searching for research articles. I joined the Special Scars Facebook group trying to find some more stories. I eventually found a PubMed study that was on cervical lacerations and how they affected subsequent pregnancies. It wasn’t really an apples-to-apples comparison. I was like, “You know what? These women had cervical tears and went on to have vaginal births afterward. I’m going to take this to the OB.” I was armed and ready. And then I went to the appointment and he was like, “Yeah. There’s not really any data or studies on how this impacts your risk of rupture.” I told him about the study and it was weird. He was just like, “Okay, yeah. You can have a trial of labor.” And I was shocked because I was just expecting to have all this pushback. I don’t know if he was more comfortable because it was lower and not in the contracting part of my uterus or if he could tell I was very determined and had done my research and was willing to take that risk, but he essentially gave the green light and then I never heard anything about it the rest of the pregnancy. So that was really exciting and I just continued. During the pregnancy, I went to the chiropractor. I ate dates. I drank red raspberry leaf tea. I was doing Spinning Babies, HypnoBirthing, and meditations. I was just trying to get in the right head space and get my body ready. And then near the end, I started psyching myself out. In one of my last appointments, I was obsessing about the baby’s position because the baby wasn’t– what is the ideal? It’s like, LOT?Meagan: LOA. LOA, but OA. We want the baby looking down towards the mom’s back so as the baby comes down on your pelvis, the neck can flex underneath the pubic bone, then they rotate and make room for the shoulders. But LOA is kind of like a great spot to start because the uterus will naturally rotate the baby away. Rebecca: Yeah. So I think the baby was ROT, where the baby typically turns posterior during labor.Meagan: Yeah. They start on that side because they rotate back, to the left, then to the front. And so if you’ve got a baby that’s on the right but looking sideways, which is ROT, it means the baby’s back is on the right side but sideways in the middle if that makes sense. I’m using my hand, but people can’t see me. And then the baby rotates. But then you know, most labors have a high chance at some point of a baby going in a posterior position. Whether they stay there or not, yeah. ROT for sure. Usually, you are going to have a baby there. Rebecca: Yeah. I was paranoid, I think, from my previous birth. I said something to the midwife when she confirmed that the baby– I think it was ROT. I was just like, “I can’t birth an OP baby.” She just looked at me in the eyes and was just like, “No. You couldn’t vaginally birth the last one, but this is a different baby and this is a different birth. The majority of these babies turn and are going to get in the right position.” So that set me at ease. I started having prodromal labor starting around 38 weeks and then the day after my due date, I started having lower back cramping and aches. It felt like period cramps, super mild. I said to my husband, “You know, lower back pain can be an early sign of labor.” At this point, he just looked at me and was like, “What isn’t an early sign of labor?” And I think if looks could kill, I was so annoyed at that point. Which, in all fairness, I had been telling him every single day for two weeks that I thought I was in early labor and it was all just prodromal labor. Meagan: Hey, you were still having laboring signs and prodromal labor is still labor. It’s just not progressive labor. Rebecca: Right, exactly. So I didn’t appreciate his smart-alec remark. But I did try timing them. There was no peak. They just fizzled out. That evening, I lost my mucus plug again. I told my husband and my mother-in-law, “I think tonight might be the night.” But I didn’t want to jinx it, so I didn’t send my older kids home with her because I had done that the last time and I had to do the walk of shame where she had to bring our kid back to us because I didn’t go into labor. So I was like, “Okay. We are just going to go to bed.”I went to bed at 10:30 that night downstairs in our guest bedroom because the struggle was real with the pillows, getting comfortable, and that whole third-trimester routine. One hour later, after I had gone to sleep, I woke up to a contraction. I stood up and immediately heard a pop and my water broke. I went to the bathroom to check the color and make sure it was clear, and the contractions were coming. This was real. And so I just knew that we needed to leave for the hospital as soon as possible. The problem was that my husband was upstairs asleep and I literally could not walk past our kitchen. In our kitchen, I fell down to my hands and knees. I thought I was screaming his name, but he told me later that I was just actually whisper-screaming and he doesn’t even know how he woke up. He heard a weird noise and apparently I was whispering, but it was weird. He came downstairs and in my mind, I’m on my kitchen floor and I’m like, “I’m totally getting the epidural. I have nothing left to prove. I’m getting that epidural as soon as we get there,” which, hindsight is 20/20. I was obviously in transition at this point, but he called his sister. Thankfully, she only lived two streets away so she was at our house in five minutes. I told him, “You need to call the on-call midwife and let them know we’re coming.” He hadn’t packed a bag yet. He did not have a hospital bag packed. He’s like, “I can’t call.” So he put it on speaker phone, dialed it, and set it down on the floor while I’m on my hands and knees working through contractions and he was running around packing a bag. So the midwife, she’s like, “How far apart are your contractions?” And I’m just like, “They’re back to back. They’re double peaking. I can’t get off the floor.” And she’s like, “Okay. You need to come in soon.” “That’s the plan. We’re heading in soon.” So somehow, they get me to the car and before we get to the car, I told my husband, I’m like, “Hey, grab one of those puppy pads that we never used in the closet,” because we had just gotten a new car two months before and obviously, my water was leaking. So I was in the back seat riding on my knees holding the back of the headrest and we get in the car. We start driving and all of a sudden, my contractions started spacing out again. I was like, “Oh, this is so nice. I’m getting a break finally,” which, once again, hindsight is 20/20. Contractions start typically spacing out right when you’re supposed to start pushing. We’re halfway to the hospital and my body just starts bearing down. We’re in the car and I’m like, “Oh my gosh. I’m pushing and we’re in a car.” My husband was like, “Do I need to pull over?” But at this point, we’re on a bridge. We drove from Louisville over to Indiana to give birth. We’re on the bridge over the Ohio River in between the two states and I was like, “No. You cannot pull over right now.” I said, “You need to call the hospital and tell them to be waiting for us. This is an emergency situation.” Meagan: I might have a baby on the side of the road.Rebecca: Yeah. At that point, I’m like, “There’s no way by the time an ambulance gets there.” Meagan: Oh yeah. No, it was probably best to just keep going. Rebecca: It was just like, “Keep going.”Meagan: Yeah. Rebecca: He calls the hospital and it’s this lady. She’s like, “Sure. Just come in and you can go up to labor and delivery.” He’s like, “No. You don’t understand. My wife is having a baby,” and she’s just giving him the runaround. I was like, “Tell her that I’m a third-time mom and I’m pushing.” He told her that and she was like, “One moment,” and immediately transferred him to the emergency room department. They said they would be waiting for us and we were like, “Okay good. That’s what we like to hear.” We were almost there. My body’s bearing down. I pulled down my pants and stick my hand down to make sure I don’t feel a head because I am pushing hard. Actually, I pooped in the car and it landed on the puppy pad thankfully. Meagan: Hey!Rebecca: I was mortified. Well, I think I was more– it’s so silly. I was like, “It’s a new car and I just pooped in our new car!” But you know. Meagan: But we all know that pooping is a sure sign that a baby is coming, so it’s not like it was a bad thing. Rebecca: No. I just, you know. It would have been nice to–Meagan: What did your husband say about that?Rebecca: Later, he actually left the hospital to go clean out the car a couple of hours after. Meagan: “I’m going to go clean that up.”Rebecca: Yeah. You would not want that sitting in the car. But he said it wasn’t bad because it all was on the puppy pad. Meagan: So you just fold it up and put it in the garbage. Rebecca: Yeah, it wasn’t bad. So that’s my tip for all you listeners. Have a puppy pad in your car just in case. Meagan: Yes. Puppy pad and a bag or something for vomit. No matter how far along you are in labor, something to do that because you never know. Sorry, my dog’s toy is squeaking in the background. You never know when you are going to poop or puke. Rebecca: Yep, very fair. I definitely puked in my first labor. So anyway, we get to the hospital and they’re waiting. I can see the team outside. They come up to the door on the side that I’m on. She checks to make sure that there’s not a head and she’s like, “You defecated, but that is normal.” She’s trying to reassure me. I’m like, “I know it’s normal to poop. It’s okay.”They’re trying to convince me to get on the gurney and I’m like, “I’m not laying down on that. I will crawl onto my hands and knees.” This entire time, I pretty much have not been off of my hands and knees. So they get a sheet and cover me because my pants were off at this point and they wheel me up to labor and delivery on this gurney with me on my hands and knees. They get up. I have my eyes closed the whole time. They get up to labor and delivery and somebody whispers in my ear and says, “Hey Rebecca, this is Sarah. You’re going to be okay.” It was my favorite nurse who was there with my traumatic birth and stayed the entire time. She was actually a student midwife too, so I was just immediately put at ease. They get me up. They know they’re not going to be able to COVID test me so they put me in the COVID positive room because they’re obviously not going to stick a Q-tip up my nose at this point. The ER people just had no idea what to do. They were like, “Do we need to run a line? Should we run an IV?” Sarah, the nurse, was just like, “There’s no time for that. You’re not running an IV on her right now.” They’re trying to convince me to get over into the labor and delivery bed, but I don’t want to move. They’re like, “We promise you that it’s much more comfortable than the gurney. Please.” So they finally scoot them side by side and I crawl over. I stay on my hands and knees and they get the monitors on me. She checks me and she’s like, “Oh yeah. You’re complete.” I was like, “What station is the baby?” She just laughs because, in my head, I was complete with my last pregnancy and still pushed for four hours, but she goes, “The baby’s right there. You’re +3. This baby’s coming.” In the background, I can just hear that they’re on the phone. There are no midwives on the premises and there’s no OB. They’re kind of panicking because the first call midwife is over across the street with a birth center patient and so she can’t leave, so then they had one driving from 20 minutes away, and then the OB that I do not like from my C-section, they called him and he was on his way. He was not the person that I wanted to see either. But everybody’s like 20 minutes away. I said, “I have to push.” And she’s like, “Okay, you’re fine. You can push.” I literally pushed. Baby came out in that first push fully. No head molding or anything and I just lay down. I was so exhausted. Then I turned around. They handed her to me and told me it was a girl, which, I was shocked because I thought it was going to be a boy. It was such a different pregnancy. So yeah. The nurse ended up catching her. I think it was 15 minutes after we got to the hospital. She was born at 12:26 a.m. and I had woken up to that first contraction at 11:30 p.m. Meagan: Oh!Rebecca: So it was pretty much exactly an hour and it was just wild. Meagan: Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Rebecca: I could not believe it. So yeah. That’s the story. It was just a whirlwind. Meagan: Yeah, yeah!Rebecca: Yeah. I’m kind of scared to have another kid honestly because I’m like, “What happens if you don’t get to the hospital?”Meagan: I know. Well, I mean, it happens and people usually call EMTs and things like that, but yeah. You might have to plan first sign of anything maybe going. I don’t know. It’s totally what you want more.Rebecca: Yeah.Meagan: Another thing, too, is sometimes with a history of pretty solid prodromal labor, as a doula, if I have a client that has had a week of prodromal labor, in my mind, I kind of anticipate potentially a precipitous birth. It doesn’t always happen. It doesn’t always happen, but especially for a mom that has had a baby before and her cervix has dilated and effaced and everything, prodromal labor can sometimes be a sign that labor could, not always, but could go quickly.Rebecca: Well, I think I remember reading that, or what I at least told myself was that every contraction I had then in the moment was, “This is one less that I’ll have later.”Meagan: Yeah. Rebecca: I don’t know how accurate that is but it seemed true at least in my case that I had very few, yeah. I mean, it was just so fast but it was interesting. My body, looking back, did not get off of my hands and knees. I delivered on my hands and knees. I think the baby was turning. That’s what my body knew because it felt crazy in my body. I don’t know. I felt like she was banging around. I don’t know if that’s right. She was obviously rotating or something but my body knew that this was the position I needed to be in and I did not get out of it for anyone. That was it. Hands and knees, the whole time.Meagan: Intuitive. Your body was intuitively going into that position which I think is amazing. I think it’s amazing that our bodies can communicate to us that way where you get into a position and you’re like, “Nope. This is not working,” and then you get in a position and you’re like, “I’m not leaving. This is where I’m staying.”Yeah. That is so awesome though. I love that your provider– I love that one, you did research and you spoke with your provider and were able to have that conversation of, “Okay, yeah.” And then I also love, this is not in regards to the laceration, but I also love when your baby was in a less ideal– as what the world says is less than ideal– not LOA but ROT, she’s like, “Yeah. You’re baby’s going to rotate. It’s going to be fine.”Rebecca: Yeah. Yeah.Meagan: You kind of needed that. Rebecca: Oh yeah. I think mentally, I had hit a wall even though the whole time I had been listening to affirmations and getting in the right headspace, but then right there at the end, it was suddenly just this mental game of, “Can I do this? I don’t know if I can do this.” I was so thankful because I feel like it really put me over that hump for sure. Meagan: Yeah, for sure. Well, awesome. Well, if you guys do end up having more children, hopefully, you make it to the hospital or wherever you decide to birth. Hopefully, it goes well. Rebecca: Well, yeah. Somebody suggested a home birth and I’m like, “A home birth midwife would not have gotten there in time and my husband would have been catching that baby.”Meagan: Yeah. That happened to a friend of mine who had the same thing. It was very precipitous. The midwife was not even that far, but she also said, “I probably waited too long to tell her to come.” She was in denial. She was like, “I just don’t. I don’t really know. I’m okay. I’m doing okay.” And then it shifted so fast and I’m like, “Yeah. You probably should have called her.” She even said that. She was like, “Yeah, I probably should have called her sooner.” Her husband caught the baby.Rebecca: Oh wow. Meagan: The midwife was there to catch the placenta. Rebecca: See? Yeah. That’s essentially, I think, what happened. The midwife got there in time for me to deliver the placenta at the hospital at least. But yeah. Yep. Nobody was there for the actual baby. Meagan: Nobody was there, yep. And that happens. That happens. Sometimes these babies– and like you said, there was no shaping of the head. Baby dropped, rotated, and came out. Rebecca: Yep.Meagan: Yep. Your body did some awesome work. I love that. So with your cervical laceration, obviously, it didn’t necessarily stop you from dilating. Rebecca: No, not at all. Meagan: There wasn’t any scar tissue or anything like that. Have you, in your research, found that sometimes where there are lacerations to the cervix, it can delay dilation or cause issues with dilating? Rebecca: Well, yeah. There was an article also on cervical scar tissue. I was concerned about that. I remember bringing it up to my midwives and they’re like, “We won’t really know until you’re in labor if you have a lot of scar tissue and if you do, we might try to just break it up or your body will eventually.” They said, “A lot of times, there’s a big jump in dilation.” So you’re showing all of the signs that you’re not very dilated and then all of a sudden, you jump from a 3 to an 8 and that scar tissue breaks up essentially.So I mean, I guess presumably there could have been scar tissue and it was just–Meagan: It just broke on its own.Rebecca: It broke open an hour before the baby was born. I don’t really know but there wasn’t any by the time I got to the hospital that was causing issues.Meagan: Which is great, yeah. Have you had any problems monthly with pain or anything like that?Rebecca: No. I need to probably go back to a physical pelvic floor therapist. I did go with my third pregnancy because halfway through, I started feeling some pressure and whatnot. It was really helpful, so I’m all about that soapbox too about pelvic floor therapy. Meagan: Oh, I know. Rebecca: I have not prioritized it but I was telling a friend the other day, I’m like, “I don’t think things are back to normal after that really fast labor and pushing.” Thankfully, I only had a first-degree superficial tear that they didn’t stitch, but it’s still after three pregnancies. Things are feeling not painful, it’s just that I feel like some therapy could be helpful for me maybe. Meagan: Yeah, for sure. We’re going to be recording another episode with a pelvic floor specialist here in the next couple of weeks. Rebecca: Awesome. Meagan: Yeah, stay tuned everybody for that because it’s going to be really great. She has a lot of really, really, really great info on that. She has, oh my gosh, so many amazing things just on her Instagram. So that will be good. But you know, I think that vaginal or non-vaginal, pelvic floor stuff is really good to do to just tune in, learn how to strengthen and release, and all of that jazz down there. So yeah. I mean, I’ve only had one vaginal birth with two C-sections and I feel like I probably need some more pelvic floor love. I’ve gone, but I probably need more too. Well, that’s awesome. So I was trying to find the PubMed article that you were referencing. Do you know the title of it? Is it the Intrapartum cervical lacerations? Rebecca: Yes. It’s that one. Meagan: Okay. That’s the one I found. Perfect. Yeah. They did quite a significant study. There were just over 81,000 deliveries in this study and it said that 131 or .16% were complicated by cervical lacerations. It doesn’t happen a lot, but it happens. It says that a lot of the time they get cervical cerclages, so I was wondering if anyone ever talked to you about cervical cerclage.Rebecca: Nope, they never mentioned it. Meagan: That’s awesome. Yeah. I have a friend that has a cervical cerclage. When she gets pregnant, she starts dilating really, really, really early. Like, really early. Like, 18 weeks. So they had to do a cerclage. But anyway, it says, “Regression and cervical cerclage precipitous labor.”Rebecca: Really? I totally didn’t even know that. Meagan: Oh, so I saw precipitous labor and I thought, “Oh, that’s really interesting.” But I think that’s probably because it happens so fast and baby just comes out really, really fast, but you had precipitous labor the second time and didn’t have any further complications so that’s really awesome.Rebecca: Yeah, yeah. Meagan: So anyway, I’m going to link this article to the show notes and you can check it out if you guys want to learn more about cervical lacerations and how they could impact future vaginal deliveries. But yeah, I mean, it still looks like many people go on and have uncomplicated vaginal deliveries. Rebecca: Right. The way it was explained to me is that it could happen a lot more than they realize where they knew because of the C-section, but you could tear your cervix during birth and if you’re not hemorrhaging or bleeding a lot, then they might not even catch it. It might just heal on its own. That could lead to scar tissue so I am curious if it is more common and we just have no idea. Meagan: Right. And that’s another thing, even talking about uterine rupture, right? There are different types of uterine rupture. There’s dehiscence and stuff and yeah, obviously, with uterine rupture we usually know, but there are probably many times that people have dehiscences where it’s really thin or windows. We see windows but we see them because you are cut open and you see the uterus. But if you don’t have a C-section, we could still have windows, but we don’t see them so we might have more uterine windows than we know but we are just not seeing them. So yeah. It’s interesting that if things aren’t coming forth in concern or bleeding and things like that, then we may not ever know. Rebecca: Yeah, exactly. Meagan: But yeah. In this conclusion, it says, “Intrapartum cervical lacerations do not appear to affect the outcome of subsequent pregnancies.” So that’s pretty awesome. And obviously, it went up a little bit. We are going to link the Special Scars Group. We’ll do our Special Scars Blog, and then I’m also going to link this PubMed article in the show notes. So if you guys want to go check that out, click on the show notes below and have fun reading. Well, it was wonderful to have you and hear your beautiful stories. I mean, they are all so different in so many ways. It’s really crazy to think about how you’re the same person, but you’ve had three very different deliveries. I think that is birth and that’s how it can always be. I think especially when we are going into a VBAC, it’s important for us to remember that just because one birth was one way doesn’t mean it’s going to be the next birth. That’s not going to be our story for every birth because I know it’s easy to do. We know what we know. We know what we’ve lived through and even you said, yeah. It’s easy to reflect back or maybe be triggered and things, but just know that every delivery is different even though you are the same person. Every baby, every delivery, and every birth is so different. Try to remember that as you are going through things. There may be similarities, but it doesn’t mean it’s the same. Rebecca: Right, absolutely. Meagan: Yes. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. I can’t wait for the world to hear you. Rebecca: Well, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

This episode is exclusively with Meagan and Julie, here to answer your burning questions! Topics include due dates, induction, membrane sweeping, diastasis recti, scar tissue, pelvis size, and head size.We also have a sad announcement to share. Thank you, VBAC Link Community, for being with us through all of our seasons of change and growth. We feel that you are there for us as much as we love being there for you!Additional linksACOG Practice Bulletin 146: “Management of Late-Term and Postterm Pregnancies”Julie Francom Birth PhotographyHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Julie: Welcome to The VBAC Link podcast. This is Episode 194 and this is Julie. I’m here with Meagan today. We have a not-as-fun of an episode. It’s fun because we are going to do some FAQ’s. We are going to talk about questions that we get all of the time. We had you guys submit questions on our social media pages, questions that we have been getting through our email, so we are so happy to answer your questions as usual. We also have an announcement to make that is not as fun. But before we do any of those things, Meagan has a Review of the Week for us. Review of the WeekMeagan: Yes, I do. This is from Ashley. She says, “This podcast is a gold mine of knowledge when it comes to VBACs. I have been bingeing these episodes ever since I got pregnant with my second. I have learned so much and gained a lot of confidence on how to find a truly supportive provider. I have enjoyed the birth stories so much. I mostly listen on my commute and can also say that these ladies are my car doulas.”That’s fun. Julie: Yay!Meagan: I have cried tears of happiness and/or tears of pain and understanding during so many of these stories. No matter what happens in my birth in August, which I hope will be a VBAC, this podcast has prepared me for it. P.S. I am now caught up on all of the episodes and I am sad that I have to wait for just one weekly episode.” That is so hard. You know what? I have listened to podcasts like that. I am a big– Julie: You just binge.Meagan: I am a big crime podcast listener. I will wait and wait and wait, and then I will catch up really fast, then I’m like, “No. I need to listen any time I want. All day every day if I need to.” It’s so hard to wait for the next week’s episode. So Ashley, you actually posted this in April. It doesn’t say the year. It just says April 27th, so if it was this year and your VBAC is coming really soon–Julie: I think if you double-click the cell, it brings up the year. Meagan: 2021. So Ashley, you– Julie: Already had her baby. Meagan: No, she’s due in August. Julie: Girl, it’s 2022 right now. Meagan: Oh duh. It’s 2022. So Ashley, tell us how your birth went. Julie: We may need to– our admin, Sarah, has left and she was so good at putting all of the new reviews in our spreadsheet. I don’t think either of us has done that for a long time. Meagan: I have not. We need some more, so drop us some reviews. Go to Apple Podcasts, Google, or wherever and drop us some reviews. We would love it and very much appreciate it. And Ashley, if you are still listening, we would love to know how things went and we are sending you congrats right now.The VBAC Link’s AnnouncementJulie: Aww. Meagan: Okay. Julie: Oh my gosh.Meagan: Ms. Julie, I am turning the time over to you. Julie: No, the time is for you. I don’t want to tell them. I don’t want to say it. I feel like I am doing something wrong. It’s the first time I feel like I’m doing something wrong. Meagan: So, we do. We have some news and the news is pretty crummy in my opinion. Julie is leaving us. She is leaving us. She is no longer going to be with The VBAC Link, although, let’s be honest, I’ll probably be bringing her back here and there. Julie: Will I ever really be gone? Meagan: Yeah, will you ever really, really be gone? I don’t know if I’m going to be able to allow that to happen. But that is the truth. So, Julie, I don’t know if you want to share a little bit. Julie: Yeah. Meagan: I don’t know if you want to share a little bit. I am just so sad. Julie: Oh my gosh. Yeah. It’s sad, but it’s the right choice for me. Oh my gosh. I don’t know how much I should share or how much is appropriate to share. First of all, there’s nothing wrong. Meagan and I are 110% good. I love Meagan. She loves me, at least I hope she still loves me. She hasn’t told me otherwise.  Meagan: I adore you. Julie: There’s nothing wrong with The VBAC Link or with any– there’s no controversy or drama or anything like that. It’s just that there are things in my life that have lined up in a way that it doesn’t make a lot of sense for me to continue with The VBAC Link anymore. But I am so grateful to Meagan for keeping it forward and I know that she is going to do an amazing job doing that. I’m still in half of the course. I’m still on half the blogs. There are going to be remnants of me.  But yeah. I guess we can just talk a little bit about how I came to this decision. I think a lot of people would appreciate some vulnerability and some honesty here. Maybe a lot of people here just don’t care very much and that’s totally fine. If you want to know, then definitely stick around, and then we are going to get to answering some VBAC FAQ’s. I don’t know if it’s FAQ. Meagan: Just Q&A’s. Julie: Yeah, Q&A’s. Those are the right letters. I don’t know how much you really know about this, but I had a pretty traumatic childhood with a lot of trauma involved growing up. I have recently been diagnosed with PTSD related to that childhood. I know that a lot of people here can relate to that. Trauma is trauma, right? Whether it happens in childhood, whether it happens in adulthood, whether it happens because of this thing, that thing, or childbirth, or whatever, trauma is trauma. Trauma responses are the same no matter what. Everyone’s trauma stories are different, but trauma responses are the same. I have pretty complicated trauma from my childhood that happened for many, many, many years. I thought I was doing fine and coping well through life, and I was because I was really good at stuffing things down, not feeling things, just trucking on, moving forward, and pushing through. That was my identity and then I started having kids because kids bring up– you guys can probably relate to this– all of the emotions, all of the feelings, all of the hormone shifts, and everything like that. Having kids started bringing up all of these things that I have been stuffing down and moving fine and doing comfortably not addressing and ignoring throughout my entire life. And so slowly but surely, I started having a lot of mental health issues. I was doing pretty well but the depression and the anxiety came. My different triggers with PTSD started showing up. It came to a point last year at the beginning of 2021 where I knew that something had to change. Something had to change. I was so anxious. I felt like everything was out of control and was kind of spiraling. I was not doing very good in life and I knew that I needed to be better for myself, better for my kids, better for my husband, better in all of my relationships, better in my partnership with Meagan, a better doula for my doula clients and now, I’m turning into a birth photographer. I started taking charge of my mental health and I went into a pretty big program that took a lot of time which is one of the reasons why we decided to take a break from the podcast because I was investing so much time in my mental health, healing my past, and healing the traumas that I had dealt with so long ago, that we needed a break from the podcast. And so anyway, it’s been a little while since things have settled down. I am doing a lot better now, but I am also trying to figure out how to exist. I don’t know if that’s the right word. How to find the right balance between me while I am still healing– it’s probably going to be a lifelong thing. As all people do, we all have our things. We all have our issues to work on, right? I’m just trying to find my balance and what feels right to me. I used to be the person that gets a lot of things thrown at her. I get a lot of things done. I knock stuff out. I accomplish so many things and everybody says, “Oh my gosh, I don’t know how you do so much.” Well, I’ll tell you how I do so much. I do so much by completely ignoring my self-care, by having a really unhealthy relationship with work and no boundaries with people and things. I’m rediscovering how to find a balance in all of those things. And so I have a lot of priorities right now. First of all, of course, is my family– my husband and my kids. Second of all is myself. My therapist gets mad at me all of the time for not making myself a priority in my life. But I am working on that and that self-care but also, healing and making better and improving constantly those important, eternal relationships to me which are my family and myself. Also, my business is now birth photography so if you are in Utah, I know a girl who can take your birth pictures for you. I’m reidentifying that and giving more to my usual clients as a birth photographer and doula. I am still a doula as well, a doula and photographer together which is called a doula-tog if you didn’t know. Doula-togs are a thing now. It’s pretty exciting. I’ve really invested a lot of myself into those areas. I’m improving myself, my relationships, and my other business which has been very fulfilling. Unfortunately, The VBAC Link is the next priority. I say “unfortunately” because after I put all of my time and energy into these other priorities of mine, there’s just not a lot left to give to The VBAC Link and it makes me sad to say. I am so sad to say it. I can’t continue with the unhealthy relationship with everything that I have had going on in my life. And so this is me setting my healthy boundaries. It has taken a really long time. I think I started really considering it in January and now it’s July. It has taken a really long time to get comfortable with that because The VBAC Link has been such a big part of my identity and who I am as a birth worker for so long. It’s taken a long time for me to get comfortable with the need to let it go so that I free up myself to put the energy into my higher priorities and the things that matter more and that are more significant in my life. I guess that is the best way to say it but t’s hard because The VBAC Link has been so significant. My priorities are kids, the husband, birth photography, and VBAC Link, and then maybe myself, right? So probably that’s not a good thing, right? So I need to, yeah. I don’t know. I’m just rambling now, but I love The VBAC Link. I love The VBAC Link. I still will always be a founder of The VBAC Link. I still will always have so much love for Meagan, The VBAC Link, and all of you on your journeys. I’ll still listen to your stories and keep up with everything that’s going on. I’ll pop in probably for a podcast here and there with Meagan. But yeah. There’s been a huge need for a big personal shift in my life and unfortunately, this is the thing. I don’t know what to say.Meagan: This is the thing. It’s just one of the things that need to be eliminated. It sucks. It sucks. Julie: It totally sucks. Meagan: It sucks really bad, but I just want you to know how proud of you I am because I know it wasn’t an easy choice or decision at all. I know that. I know that it was not easy. I’m not going to let you go too far. Julie: Yeah, we’ll see each other. We’ll be around. Meagan: Yes. Julie: At births together, probably. Meagan: I’m excited that you’re still doing photography and still being in the birth world a little bit and finding your place there, but yeah. I’m going to miss you but don’t worry, listeners. You’ll still hear her every once in a while.Julie: Yeah, and shoot me a message. You can follow me on, I don’t know. Can I do a shameless plug for my business? You can check me out on Facebook or Instagram. Just search for Julie Francom Birth and you can find my Instagram and Facebook.Meagan: Yeah, go find her. Julie: You can reach out to me. I would love to hear from you still because as of now, I am not involved anymore in the day-to-day operations and the messaging, the emails, and all of the intricate things that we do. Meagan: I know, all the things, yeah. Julie: It will be sad, but yeah. Come say “hi”. I would love to hear from you. Meagan: Yes. Let her know that you are still with her. Julie: Yeah. All right, let’s get past the sappy stuff. I don’t do well with it. Meagan: I know. I’m like, “Can we just not talk about this right now?” I’m not accepting this right now. Q&A’sMeagan: We do. We have questions that some of our followers have asked and it’s interesting. One of the questions that we saw come up is truly one of the most common questions that we get, I think. I think it’s one of the most common things. It’s about due dates. I shouldn’t say it’s one of the most common, but we had a question asking about a provider who is wanting her to have her baby immediately because they want to avoid a big baby. They want to know how far or if it’s even okay to go past your due date. Gosh, Julie. I struggle with this one a little bit because don’t you feel like it’s ever since the ARRIVE study? Julie: Yeah. Gosh. You know, I feel like it is. I feel like it’s more so. There’s more pressure on due dates. There always has been, but I feel like everyone wants to induce. Everyone wants to put a lot of pressure on you. Not everybody, but there are a lot of places and a lot of places I wouldn’t have expected to do that. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know. It just seems like this due date is such a thing. You know, with due dates, it’s one of those things that you have to do what’s best for you and follow your heart but these providers are wanting to induce. And so I’m actually going to steer away– because there were two kinds of questions in regards to due dates. One was “How far past my due date am I okay to go?” But there was another one saying that they want to. I’m trying to look for it right here. Julie: I have something about what ACOG says in our files somewhere. I’m going to find it about due dates. Meagan: Oh, it was stripping the membranes. It was stripping the membranes because the doctor– and this is at 38 weeks. The doctor was wanting her to go into labor immediately, like ASAP, and wanted her baby to be smaller. It was a big baby versus a small one. It is a small part of VBAC stats. I just want to talk about membrane sweeping, inducing, and due dates. I’m going to talk about three of those things. Julie: All of it. Meagan: All at the same time because they kind of all go into play with one another, right? So let’s talk about stripping membranes. Sweeping a membrane or stripping a membrane is where your provider will go in and separate the membrane. They go into the cervix, separate the membrane, and sweep around. It releases prostaglandins and hormones to help labor start. However, it doesn’t always happen like that. It doesn’t just start all the time. I wanted to talk about what it looks like. I don’t know if there are actually any stats. Julie, you guys, this is going to be really hard because Julie is such a stat person. I’m going to be writing to her all the time and be like, “Are there any stats that you know about this?” I don’t know about the stats or the actual percentage of if it’s going to work or not, but this is just a good rule of thumb for considering membrane sweeping that a midwife a long time ago gave me. I’ll tell you and you can take it with what you want. So if the cervix is “primed”, and I am doing primed with quotations. If the cervix is looking ready, this is the rule of thumb she gave me. It’s 2-3 centimeters dilated, 70-80+% effaced, and the cervix has come at least midline meaning your cervix is not really posterior. It’s not really hard to reach. It’s lining up more with the birth canal. It’s mid. If those things are happening, a sweep is usually something or could be something that may be more effective and bring on labor with a sweep. However, if we are 1 centimeter dilated, 50% effaced, the cervix is really far back there and really not showing signs of readiness, then the chances of a sweep working are a lot lower. And so at 38 weeks, a provider stripping membranes already at 38 weeks, there is a good chance that the cervix will not be “primed” or in an ideal position for a sweep to bring labor on. Some of the pros of sweeping membranes are that it can completely skip an induction because it can work. It can work and people can go into spontaneous labor with that. It’s great, right? We don’t have to use Pitocin and do those types of things. However, if your cervix isn’t super ready and we do a sweep, it could cause something called prodromal labor. Julie knows what prodromal labor is really well because she had, did you say weeks, Julie?Julie: Yeah, it was three weeks. Meagan: Yeah. Three weeks of prodromal labor which is where your body is contracting and acting as though it is trying to go into labor, but it never really turns the curve or the point actually to begin labor. That can leave for very, very, very exhausted mamas, so when labor does kick in, we are tired and do not want to labor, right? So it can bring on prodromal labor because it stimulates the cervix and the uterus just enough to think that we are going to try but because our body’s not ready, it can just contract, contract, contract with no real end result of a baby for a long period of time. So those are some cons and pros. Also, the more sweeping and the more things we have in there, the more we are introducing potential bacteria and things like that. Back in the day when I was expecting, my midwife actually offered to sweep my membranes and because I have a history of PROM, premature rupture of membranes, with labor not beginning, I was a little nervous because I was worried that it might weaken my sac or introduce bacteria because I had a provider a long time ago, while I was preparing, say something like, “Your membranes may have been weakened and broke,” so I don’t know. There aren’t any stats on that that I know of necessarily, but I just didn’t want anything extra introduced. So you’ve just got to take that into consideration as well that you are putting bacteria in and introducing potential bacteria if you are doing a membrane sweep. But it can be something to help avoid induction and if you’ve got a provider that is saying, “Hey, we are going to schedule a C-section because we are not having a baby,” then maybe that is going to be a good alternative. Julie, I’ve heard your mouse clicking. Did you find the stat that you wanted?Julie: Yes. It’s ACOG’s guidelines for postterm pregnancies and induction. This is Practice Bulletin 146. It’s called “Management of Late-Term and Postterm Pregnancies”. What I think is really interesting is that this opinion hasn’t changed after the ARRIVE trial. They actually reaffirmed their stats on postterm pregnancies after the ARRIVE trial was published. So I really like it. There are two things that I wanted to talk about in relation to the induction of labor. First of all, they say at the very last page, it’s the very last section of the bulletin, they talk about TOLAC, vaginal birth after Cesarean, and management of postterm pregnancies. They say right here that– actually, I’ll just read it. Well, I don’t want to read all of it because it’s really long. Okay. “For women who desire TOLAC and who have not had a prior vaginal delivery, awaiting spontaneous labor as opposed to undergoing labor induction most likely avoids further additional increased risk of uterine rupture. Thus, TOLAC remains an option for women with postterm pregnancies who have not had a prior vaginal delivery, but these women should be counseled regarding these unusual risks** such as failure of TOLAC and uterine rupture.”So it says in their bulletin right there that basically these guidelines that they are talking about apply to women even if they have had a prior Cesarean delivery and desire a TOLAC or a VBAC. The second one, or actually there are two other things I want to say. There is a Cochrane review that they site. A Cochrane review is a meta-analysis of several studies. I love Cochrane reviews. They are my favorite types of studies and data because they are usually very, very reliable. They talk about the different outcomes between expectant management and induction of labor. Now, this is before the ARRIVE trial, and remember, the ARRIVE trial is just one single study. Cochrane reviews look at many, many studies and gather the outcomes of all of the studies. I love this because a lot of times, you’ll hear providers say, “Oh, your risk of rupture increases after 40 weeks. Your risk of stillbirth doubles.” They’re talking about relative risk versus absolute risk. The risks for those are very, very, very small still. We are talking about .002% of stillbirth to .004% of stillbirth. And yes, that technically doubles, but it is still a very small risk. Knowing the numbers and knowing what risk you are assuming is very important when you are making decisions for your birth. I like this because it says, “The number of inductions of labor needed to prevent one perinatal death (or one stillbirth) is 410.” So you would need 410 inductions to eliminate one perinatal death. It says, “There are no incidents in the rates of neonatal intensive care admission in this study”, so your baby is not necessarily more likely to need NICU time for induction. That was a review of 10 trials, so over 6,000 infants. Basically, they summarize at the end. They say, “In summary, based on available evidence, induction of labor between 41 weeks and 0 days and 42 weeks and 0 days can be considered** and an induction of labor after 42 weeks and 0 days is recommended given evidence of increased perinatal morbidity and mortality.” So here, ACOG itself says that looking at all of the evidence, it’s safe to go to 42 weeks of pregnancy before recommending a routine induction of labor due to postterm pregnancies. But we have this sudden influx of people rushing to induce at 39 and 40 and even 41 weeks. A lot of people, even my clients will say, “I’m not comfortable inducing before 41 weeks, but if I get to 41 weeks, I’ll probably induce.“All of the evidence out there says you may be safe to go on a little bit longer. But of course, we always advocate for you using your intuition, taking all of the evidence, and making a plan that feels best for you and your baby. But yeah, that’s what ACOG says. Evidence applies. And I love how after, they say, “Sure, yeah. Going between 42 weeks and 0 days and 42 weeks and 6 days, that’s when we are going to recommend it.” And then afterward, they go on and affirm and say, “Yeah. This is even for VBAC too. It’s for people who want a trial of labor after a Cesarean. Meagan: Yeah. What’s interesting is that for this follower, the doctor is wanting to start inducing-type processes at 38 weeks. And I’m like, “Why at 38 weeks? Why are we starting so early?” But it’s because we are seeing this shift. It seems like the 41-week mark is just going away. It’s like 39 is 40 and 40 weeks is 41. It’s like 41 is nonexistent. It’s too far. I don’t know. That’s just how it feels to me. Julie: Yeah. I see that too. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so another question is “First child was breech, so the C-section delivery took place. Currently pregnant with number two and my doctor moved my due date up one week versus last missed period calculation. Due to baby’s size on ultrasound, from what you know, how much past my due date, whichever one is still safe?” Look, I’m reading the same question. So yeah, we just talked about that. Okay, let’s see. “I have had an emergency C-section as my baby had their cord wrapped around their neck three times and their heart rate was dropping. I was not able to go into labor at all, so what is the likelihood of that happening again? I really want a VBAC but am worried as I never went into labor.”Julie: Hey, I never went into labor. Meagan: Exactly. I never was able to have a chance to go into labor either. Just because you didn’t go into labor once does not necessarily mean you are never going to go into labor again. I am a true believer that people’s bodies don’t just hold on to babies for life. I do believe that we will all go into labor eventually. I’m sure there are those random cases somewhere out there that maybe babies were carried longer or something, but yeah. The likelihood of your body not going into labor is low. The likelihood or the chance of your body going into labor before a provider may want you to go into labor– does that make sense what I am saying?Julie: Yeah your provider might want you to go into labor before your body is going to be ready. Meagan: Before your body is ready, yes. And there is a chance that your body will not go into labor by the time your provider is wanting you to go into labor, but that doesn’t mean you are not going to go into labor. You are likely going to go into labor and it’s just a matter of trusting and waiting for your body to get there. So yeah, that would be my answer to that. Julie, anything that you would add?Julie: Sorry, I forgot the actual question. I was just following along with you. Meagan: The chances of her not going into labor. Julie: Oh my gosh, yeah. Meagan: She had a C-section baby. Heart rate was dropping. It looks like the cord was wrapped around their neck. She is wondering what the chances are of her not going into labor.Julie: Yeah, no. Honestly, I don’t know if there is a statistic for that. I remember one case a really, really old long time ago where there was a woman that had, oh my gosh. I don’t even remember. I can’t even speak educated about this. Meagan: Pregnant for a long time. Julie: She was pregnant and the baby had passed around the 20th or 30th week and she didn’t know. The baby was in there for decades. Meagan: Oh. Oh, I think I remember that I have heard a story about that. Julie: Do you remember that? There was one. There was one time that that happened. There might be more, but we are talking about one-offs here. The odds that your body is just not ever going to go into labor are highly unlikely. This is also speculation, but I have a couple of my IVF moms who have had to get pregnant through IVF and needed a lot of help getting pregnant say that their fertility providers, and I am not an expert in fertility anything, but I’ve had a couple of my clients that have gone through IVF say that if their body has problems producing the hormones to get you pregnant, it might have problems with the hormones needed to go into labor. Meagan: Yeah, I’ve heard IVF and things like that might need–Julie: They might need Pitocin. They might need a little nudge or higher doses of Pitocin.Meagan: Yeah, they are suggested to be induced due to other things. Julie: Yeah. Meagan: yeah. Julie: But even that is a little bit like maybe, like maybe, but I don’t know. I don’t think there is anything inclusive to say one way or the other in that regard. If there is, definitely let us know or let Meagan know. Message me too, I guess. Let The VBAC Link know.Meagan: Let The VBAC Link know and I will make sure that Julie knows. Julie: Yes. I want to be educated still. Meagan: Yes. Okay, so another question is “What role does diastasis recti play when it comes to a successful VBAC?”So if you don’t know what diastasis recti–Julie: Diastasis?Meagan: Diastasis. I always say diastasis. Julie: I don’t even know how to say it right. You may be right. I don’t know.Meagan: I bet it’s diastasis. That sounds more medical. Julie: You know what we’re talking about, right people? Meagan: Yes. That is the separation of the abdominal wall.  Julie: The abdominal muscles, yeah. Meagan: Yeah. I don’t know if it necessarily plays any role specifically as far as having a VBAC. Have you ever heard of anything like that? I mean, I had a diastasis recti and I had a VBAC after two C-sections. You might have more pelvic pain because mine caused pelvic pain. This is actually a really good question for Gina or our pelvic floor specialists. I’m actually going to write that down. We are going to have a pelvic floor specialist on. I’m going to write that down and ask that question, so come back to that. Julie: Yeah. Meagan: Yeah because I don’t actually know if it does. I don’t think it does. Julie: I don’t think it does either. I haven’t heard of anything like that. Meagan: Yeah. Julie: To me, the abdominal muscles and the uterine muscles are completely separate from each other, but it might impact your pelvic alignment. You might need to take extra care to go to a chiropractor and see a pelvic floor specialist to make sure all of your connective tissues are nice and loose to go into labor. That’s just where my mind goes. Meagan: Yeah, yeah. It might cause more discomfort but not necessarily make your chances go down of having a VBAC is what’s in my head. I will try and get that confirmed. Okay, let’s see. What other questions? I don’t know if you’re on it. Oh, “what happens to Cesarean scar tissue after you’ve had a VBAC? Do the intense stretching and shrinking help remove adhesions or does it re-adhere?”Personally, I have dense adhesions and they just continue to come. If I don’t actively work out my adhesions and my scar, I just continue to get adhesions and I can feel them. It’s weird but I can feel them. So once you’ve had a VBAC, I mean, I’ve had a VBAC and mine are still coming. I would say that you still probably need to seek pelvic floor specialists or learn how to properly massage your scar. It says, “Do the intense stretching and shrinking help remove adhesions?” I mean, it could maybe stretch it out, but I don’t think it removes.Julie: Yeah. Yeah. Meagan: Yeah, but again, I’m going to throw that one into our pelvic floor specialist episode that’s going to be coming up because I don’t know the exact answer on that. I just don’t know. But from my experience of being seen, the answer is no, it doesn’t necessarily shrink or remove adhesions. Julie: Mhmm, yeah. There’s a way to make them more flexible. Everything you say, yes. I’m just going to echo everything. Meagan: You can work them out. Julie: Yeah and make them more flexible and pliable, but there’s no real way to get rid of them unless you go in and surgically remove them, but then surgically removing them causes more of them so it’s kind of a double-edged sword there. Meagan: Yeah, that’s a hard thing. Once you’ve got that scar there, you’ve got it. And adhesions come with any type of scar. It doesn’t just mean C-section either. It’s really any type of scar. Okay, so it says, “My first pregnancy was last June and that baby was a C-section. I’m now expecting in November. The reason I needed an emergency was because my son wouldn’t come down due to my pelvis being too small. When I spoke to my new OB about a VBAC, she told me that I wouldn’t be–” Can you hear my thoughts as I am reading this?“When I spoke to my new OB about VBAC, she told me I wouldn’t be a good candidate due to my pelvis being small,** that the size will never change, and I will have the same issue as I did with my second child. I just wanted to know if this is true.”Meagan: Um, no. Julie: No. Not true. Meagan: Not true. Not true. Not true, not true, not true. I was also told that my pelvis was too small and I would never get a baby out of it. Julie: So was I. A 4lb, 10 oz C-section baby. My VBAC baby was 8lb, 9 oz with a 99th percentile head. How is my pelvis too small for a baby that size?Meagan: Yes. Let’s talk about heads. There was a question talking about head size. Oh my gosh, I want to see if I can find it. Let me see if I can find it. I’m scrolling through. Julie: We need to get wrapping up, actually. Meagan: I know we do. Oh my gosh. Julie: Unfortunately. Meagan: So no, no, no. You still have a chance. I’m so sorry. I’m going to be blunt, but your provider’s just not being supportive. It’s really, really, really hard to diagnose a small pelvis and it’s really rare, so I would say it was more likely due to position or maybe just not enough time or something like that versus the fact that your pelvis was actually too small. And oh my gosh, there was a head question and I can’t find it, but I want you to also know because I swear it was something about babies with big heads not fitting out. My baby and Julie just mentioned it, but my babies all have ginormous heads. My VBAC baby had a 99th percentile head. I always say that it’s because they are brilliant. He still has a big head and a tiny body. It’s kind of funny. He’s just small but he came out just fine. No tearing, totally fine. It’s a lot of the time positioning. Julie: Yep.Meagan: We have lots of questions that we still didn’t get to, but don’t worry.Julie: I’ll have to come back sometime for another Q&A.Meagan: Yes. I will be doing more of these and Julie is just going to have to come back. Julie: And seriously, come and say “hi”. I would still love to talk to and connect to people. Especially if you are in Utah and local, come see me at the ICAN meetings, the ICAN of Utah County. Follow my Instagram and Facebook pages and Julie Francom Birth. I still am going to be a major VBAC advocate and a big part of helping women just a little more locally here. Meagan: Yes. Julie: I’ll come and say “hi”, I promise. Meagan: Yes, okay. Well, Julie, I don’t know what it’s going to be like without you. I really don’t. Julie: It’s going to be strange. I don’t know what my life is going to be like either. I’m going to have, I don’t know. I’ll spend time with my kids and be able to actually enroll them in sports again. Meagan: Yeah, no. I’m not loving it. Not loving the thought of it, but I am proud of you.Julie: You are sweet. Meagan: And I want you to know how much I love you. I’ve enjoyed this journey with you and I just hope that I can keep this afloat without you. Julie: You will. I’m 110% confident in you and you know I’ll always help you out if you need it. Meagan: Well, thank you. Julie: Goodbye, signing off. I don’t know. Bye! I don’t know what to say.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We are so happy to be joined by Lindsay on the podcast today who is sharing her birth stories and her chiropractic expertise. Lindsay is a beautiful example of how to create a healing birth experience after a traumatic one. We discuss how making empowered decisions can help you feel more in control in the birth room. Also, as the owner of her own chiropractic practice, Lindsay explains the benefits of the Webster Technique during pregnancy, as well as why every woman and baby should seek chiropractic care during the postpartum stage too. Additional linksLindsay’s Practice: Bluebird ChiropracticThe VBAC Link Blog: How to Plan for a Family Centered CesareanThe VBAC Link CommunityHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Happy Women of Strength Wednesday. It is Meagan and Julie. Julie: Hello! Meagan: And we are so excited to bring you another story. Today is actually a CBAC story and we were just talking about this before the episode. We are going to call it an elective CBAC. Is that what we decided? Julie: I don’t know. I think we will just leave it at CBAC because she labored. Her plans changed during labor. So I think we are going to keep it at CBAC. Meagan: She did, yeah. Okay, a CBAC story. It was definitely something that she chose and that’s one of the reasons why I love the story so much is that she stood her ground, advocated for herself, and chose something that not even her provider wanted her to choose. I am not going to give away too much, but we have a Review of the Week and then we are going to go into this lovely episode with our friend Lindsay.Review of the Week Julie: Yes, a Review of the Week. I like this review. I picked the longest one I could find on our spreadsheet. Meagan: Oh good because I can’t read and you know that. Julie: Meagan can read, everybody. Meagan can read. She just has a hard time reading and speaking. But you have actually gotten quite a bit better since we first started The VBAC Link four years ago. You have improved leaps and bounds. I’m actually quite impressed with your skills now. Meagan: Well, thank you. Julie: You’re welcome. But this review is a little mini VBAC story in one. I just think it’s really cool. This is from Abby from, oh my gosh, an email. It’s an email. She said– oh my gosh, we love emails. Guys, email us. Talk to us. We love talking to you and connecting with you guys. We got this in an email which is why it is longer. That makes sense now.  And so she says, “Hi. I’ve been wanting to send you a message for months now to let you know how you have encouraged me. Your podcast was referred to me near the end of my pregnancy and I listened often while cleaning. The facts and stories shared absolutely solidified my confidence in what my body is capable of despite the exaggeration surrounding uterine rupture. It was by far the most important stuff I learned from you gals, so thank you.” Just a side note, we have a podcast episode and a blog about uterine rupture talking about all of the myths and stuff surrounding there. Anyway, I love that. Sorry, where was I? Oh, there we go. “Thank you for doing the work to learn this stuff and sharing it. My first four children are two sets of twins, naturally conceived.” Wow, two sets of twins. I’m going to have a commentary on the story while I am reading it. Okay, I’m going to get back on track now. “I had two C-sections without issue. In the first one, I barely knew anything. For the second, I was pressured by my doctor just doing all of the textbook things to get me to believe that surgery was the only real option. Both were scheduled, but the second time around, I had gained a lot of knowledge about all things natural birth.  “With this third pregnancy and a new doctor, I knew she was giving me all of the typical fear-mongering, ill-informed information that she could. She did not like that I refused to schedule a C-section. I was planning to wait for labor to happen on its own, even if that meant going two weeks beyond “due”. All indicators pointed to her not allowing me a true trial of labor. She waved all the red flags in her words.  “I had planned to labor at home as long as possible and my dear friend who used to work as a doula offered her friendly and experienced support to get me through the home laboring. My husband couldn’t get down with hiring a midwife while we had health insurance to cover hospital birth, so sadly I accepted that we would ultimately not birth at home. Well, I labored at home all day and when the intense contractions hit around the time that our kids were going to bed, my mindset was, ‘These are probably going to be intense for the next four or so hours.’  “I had bloody show around 9:00 p.m. or so and wasn’t checking the timing of contractions. None of us even thought about that. Someone called another friend to come and stay with the kids and in what seemed like ten minutes' time, something changed. I told my friend that I guess it was transition. I wasn’t going anywhere in the car. My baby boy, Schallom, was born at 10:40 p.m. on the bathroom floor assisted by my friend and my husband. Healthy! That wasn’t the plan but was the original hope with a midwife. Knowing we wouldn’t have a midwife, having a baby at home was out of the question. “At one point during labor on the bathroom floor, I asked, “Is there someone else we can call?” But I knew that even EMTs would just deliver right there and my husband is a first responder, although he has not delivered nor assisted a birth. Thank you for your encouragement and knowledge that absolutely helped and enabled my mind to be at peace enough to smoothly deliver my baby at home, a VBAC after two C-sections. There are so many other details but I really wanted to let you know how grateful I am for your podcast and the integral part that played in my third birth.” We need this girl on the podcast! Who is she? Abby. Meagan: That is an awesome, awesome story. Julie: Oh my gosh. Well, she is in an email. We have got to find the email. It came in on February 2nd, so I’m going to go scoping through emails. We are going to find Abby and we’re going to share her story on the podcast because I was on the edge of my seat just reading the review. I can’t even imagine. Oh my gosh. Meagan: Yes.Lindsay’s StoryMeagan: Okay. Well, expect a podcast sometime from Miss Abby, but today we are going to share Lindsay’s story. So Miss beautiful Lindsay, let’s turn the time over to you. Lindsay: Thank you, guys. Meagan: Thank you.Lindsay: Okay, so for my first C-section, I was induced and then had every induction method/intervention under the sun and nothing was working. I wouldn’t progress and every time contractions came, they tried to up Pitocin to up my contractions, then my son’s heart rate started dropping. At one point they couldn’t get it up, so it turned into an emergency C-section after that.For my second birth, I was definitely planning a VBAC. I tried to prepare myself. I read all of the natural things, did lots of chiropractic care, and was mentally prepared. My son was 11 days late and then I got to the point where I was almost 10 days late, I believe. My midwife kept pushing, “Hey, we need to induce you,” but everything was looking good with baby and I knew I just go late with babies. I kept saying, “No,” but my husband and I had talked and we decided that if I didn’t go into labor naturally or anything like that, then we just wanted to elect for a C-section. With my son, my first baby, everything was so out of control and very traumatic that we just wanted something in our control. We were just not ready to go down the intervention route. We knew that didn’t work for us the first time and who knows? Maybe it would work the second time, but we just didn’t want that. Luckily this time, I went into labor on my own. I labored hard for about 12 hours and it got to the point where it was so intent that we figured we should probably head to the hospital. Meagan: Yeah, you even sounded pushy and grunty at some points. Lindsay: My whole pregnancy, I really wanted a home birth and I just didn’t like the idea of going to the hospital. I still wasn’t fully satisfied with my midwife. I bet I was probably further along when I was at home, but then when we got to the hospital, I think they said I was a 1.5, but 90% effaced. Still, very intense contractions and some were even like, what is it called? Coupling– where they are one on top of the other and no break in between. And so they decided to let me labor a little bit longer. Since I was past due, they weren’t going to send me home by any means because, at this point, I believe I was 12 days past due. So I labored for a little bit longer in the hospital. They checked me again and I still hadn’t progressed at all. And so my husband and I decided, “Let’s just do the C-section.” There was no point to push it off, getting an epidural, trying more interventions, or anything like that. We were very happy with the decision even though it wasn’t what we exactly wanted. This felt in control for us. My midwife did not like that. Meagan: She really didn’t. Lindsay: She didn’t. Meagan: She was not happy. In fact, tell them about how we were waiting. Lindsay: Yeah.Meagan: We were waiting for her, anyway–Lindsay: Yeah, so she wasn’t the one on call. They finally called her in and it felt like it took forever. Also, I don’t know if she was mad at me, but she gave me her number too to text her at the end of my pregnancy. I told her I was in labor and she didn’t respond, so it was just one thing after another. But I think I came out of the bathroom and she was standing against a cabinet or the wall or something with her arms crossed and was like, “Are you sure you want to do this?” And my husband and I were like, “We already made the decision. This is what we wanted.”And so it was just sad that we didn’t have the support from her, but with Meagan and my husband, I had plenty of support otherwise. I mean, all of the nurses were super supportive and I just wanted to make sure we were making the decision we wanted for us. We believed it was the right decision and honestly, it was the best decision. If I wasn’t going to go into labor or progress through labor on my own, then this was what worked for us because the C-section was so healing. I know not many people can say that but it made me and my husband feel like we were in control and we got to talk about what we wanted in the C-section. It wasn’t an emergency and it was just a different experience. My husband feels as well just healed from our first traumatic experience and the recovery was better. It was easier. I’m not saying C-section recovery is easy by any means, but it was easier than my first just because mentally, we were prepared. I got to hold my baby girl as soon as they cleaned her off. They put her on me and I got to hold her the whole time they were stitching me up. I never let go of her which was so fantastic compared to my first where he was swept away to the NICU. I didn’t get to see him for six hours after birth, so it definitely was a healing C-section. Meagan: Absolutely. You came back and even though you were so tired and everything, you came back and you looked so bright. Lindsay: Oh yeah. Meagan: And free. It was so good. It was so good to see you that way. Lindsay: Yes. Meagan: Because I was with you after the first and it wasn’t necessarily– I don’t want to say you looked bad.Lindsay: No, I looked bad. Meagan: You looked different. You looked different. The first time was really rough and it was a lot and this time, it wasn’t. We don’t know exactly why things didn’t progress. Maybe it was a mixture of feeling stressed when you got to the hospital because I swear to you that you were seeming very progressed at home. Even the labor pattern changed once we got there, but I just was so proud of you. Your midwife, yeah. She was like, “Are you sure though? I could just check you right now.” And you were like, “No.”Lindsay: Right. I was like, “I don’t want to be checked again.”Meagan: “I’m good. I am good.” And even after, she was like, “Ahhh.” Lindsay: Yeah. I mean she never even came back and saw us. She said she was going to and she never came back and checked on us to meet my daughter or anything like that. Meagan: Yeah, which is just so crazy. I just don’t get it. I don’t know. Maybe she had a chip on her shoulder. I don’t know. Lindsay: I don’t know. Meagan: I don’t know but I was proud of you for making the decision that you felt was best for you and doing it. I love hearing that it was so healing for you because that is how birth should be, you guys. No matter the outcome of what you want, even if it’s not what you desired, I would love for birth to be healing for everyone. I know it doesn’t happen to everyone like this, but I would love for it to be a healing experience. My repeat Cesarean wasn’t what I wanted at all, but I felt more a part of it and it was healing for me because I felt more a part of it. But I just wanted to drop that message out there to everyone who is listening that it’s okay to make these hard choices and do what you can to make your experience a healing one even if it’s not what you want. We talk about gentle Cesareans and family-centered Cesareans. We have blogs on it. But really, Cesareans can be healing. They really can. Lindsay: Yes. Meagan: I’m so happy for you. So, so happy for you. Lindsay: Thank you. I mean, I definitely couldn’t have gone through it without you and my husband as well. There were definitely hard decisions. I remember laboring in the tub and we went over everything a million times about how this could go. My daughter was also a surprise gender so we got to the point where we were like, “Let’s just figure out what this baby is,” after being 12 days late and everything. So that helped too but I know that with labor and delivery and all of pregnancy, you can’t be in control. That baby isn’t controlled by you, but it just felt nice to be able to make a decision that was something we wanted. Chiropractic CareMeagan: Absolutely. Yep. So we are going to make a little shift. This is a part-birth, part-education episode, but I would love to talk a little bit about what you do as a profession. Lindsay: Yes.Meagan: So for anybody who does not know, Lindsay is a chiropractor. She is amazing. I would love to talk about chiropractic care and anything you would like to share. Maybe discuss why you feel chiropractic care is important, especially in labor and delivery and why it may be important in the postpartum stage. Lindsay: Yes, yes. Meagan: I feel like in all senses, sometimes, we forget about postpartum. We just forget about it and we forget that there is definitely something that happens after. We still have to take care of ourselves and we still have to prepare for that, so is there anything you want to share or would like to talk about with any of that? Lindsay: Yes, thank you. I am a Webster-certified chiropractor which basically means I specialize in pregnant mamas. The Webster name gets thrown out all the time and definitely, if you are pregnant, look for a Webster-certified chiropractor in your area. We’ve taken extra education and seminars to prepare us to help take care of pregnant mamas, but that technique, basically, is very gentle on mom and baby. First, I’d like to say that I never adjust baby. I’m only adjusting mom, but in turn, to have less tension in the pelvis and motion in your joints and in your spine, you take the tension out of the uterus which then helps baby go head down or just have optimal space. If they have trouble going head down, the Webster technique helps babies go head down. But just in general, it’s very safe for mom and baby. We are not adjusting baby. We are just adjusting mom, but it’s the one thing that you can really do for yourself that can take away some pregnancy aches and pains, discomforts, anything from round ligament pain, some SI pain or low back pain, pubic symphysis pain, SPD, but then also, that bra line, midback pain just because of the changes that pregnancy does to you. It puts a lot of tension in that midback. Getting adjusted while you are pregnant is– I don’t know how I would have survived pregnancy without getting adjusted myself. It brings so much relief when you are growing a human and you can’t do much about it. You can’t take pain medications or anything like that even if you wanted to. It definitely relieves some pain but is also taking care of yourself during pregnancy. Chiropractic care has been seen to reduce labor times, help with labor, and definitely get baby head down and in a good position so it definitely makes labor a lot easier. But also, get yourself checked postpartum because your pelvis went through a huge shift and change to get that baby out. Even if you had a C-section, once you feel up to it, start getting some bodywork because as moms– I definitely feel like we don’t take care of ourselves postpartum. We always get adjusted or get massages or anything like that during pregnancy, and then we just kind of get forgotten about afterward. Chiropractic care, especially some chiropractors can really help postpartum moms as well.I work on moms during pregnancy and during postpartum. I really push that in my office to come to see me afterward because you are always hunched over breastfeeding. Get your pelvis realigned and feel good so that you can take care of baby and be present because you feel good for your family. But also, get checked for diastasis recti and stuff like that. Some chiropractors, including myself, can check for things like that, so that’s really good. Meagan: Question on diastasis recti– we had a question from a follower asking about how diastasis recti could impede delivery. Do you know? Julie: Actually, it is on next week’s episode too, so you are getting a little sneak peek. Yeah, so that’s okay. I love it. Ask, ask. Meagan: Yeah. I’m just curious if that is a thing because I didn’t think that it did, but I don’t know. Does it? Do you know? Lindsay: Well, from a chiropractic standpoint, I would say that it is pressure management. Your belly, from your diaphragm, your abdominals, your low back, and then your pelvic floor is like a canister. It is pressure management. If you have that separation in your abs, the pressure has to escape somewhere. Instead of down through your pelvis, it is probably going to escape out. Sometimes when it escapes, it is pressed into your SI joints, so a lot of moms have low back pain. But I would say during labor that you wouldn’t have good pressure management. You just can’t get that good pushing technique that you need to get the baby out. Meagan: Mhmm, okay. Okay good to know. Sorry to interrupt that. I was like, “Oh my gosh, we just read that on another podcast,” so okay. Keep going. Keep going. Sorry. Lindsay: No, that’s fine. The other thing I was going to say is also baby adjusting which seems crazy if you ever see an adult getting adjusted, all of the pops and cracks and stuff like that, but baby adjusting is also really important as well. Even if you have the most perfect birth and it’s non-traumatic or anything like that, it’s still very traumatic to the baby because they go from this nice warm womb to the outside world. Get them checked because chiropractic care, also, is related to the nervous system. We adjust the spine which, in turn, can affect the nervous system. A baby’s nervous system is basically on fire when they come out. We have moms that have babies with colic or they have constipation. Anything like that is usually because their nervous systems are going crazy. It’s in that fight or flight mode because it was traumatic. And then if you have a traumatic birth, that also goes on to the baby too. They are going to feel that stress and everything. And getting their spines checked helps calm the nervous system. It can help with colic. Like I said, it can help with constipation, but then also latching difficulties. Always check with your lactation consultant, but I always ask my moms if they are sore on one side compared to the other when they are nursing or anything because it could indicate that the baby can’t turn their heads enough so they can’t get their latch proper and so then, moms get sorer. It could be a combination of some other things too, but it is just one part that you can also check. Like I said, baby adjusting is super safe and super gentle. There is no popping or cracking. It’s as much pressure as you put on your own eyeball and it looks like I’m barely doing anything to the baby, but it does so much for their nervous systems and for their little spines. Even though they don’t have solid bones, they still have bones. They are just a little bit softer than adult bones. It’s still much needed. But then also, if you had a traumatic birth and maybe their shoulder got stuck or they were pulled out, you’ve just got to get them checked to see if they have a head tilt or anything along those lines. Meagan: Yeah. My second daughter had torticollis and the doctor was like, “Yeah, you need to go to PT.” Nothing against PT, but I did PT forever and it wasn’t changing anything. It was actually a fight every day to force her into positions and stretches. We ended up going to chiropractic care. We only went a couple of times and it totally fixed everything. Lindsay: That’s awesome. Meagan: And so, yeah. It was so awesome. And I also, my son hadn’t pooped forever. Lindsay: Oh yeah. Meagan: He was having constipation issues and my husband’s buddy, my friend is a chiropractor and it was 9:30 at night. He was like, “Just come. Just come” Because we were crying, just so desperate. Lindsay: It’s so stressful. Meagan: Yes, and so we went, and oh my gosh, biggest poop ever. Lindsay: Yes. Meagan: And then he passed out for hours and hours because it took so much energy to get it out. But yeah, chiropractic can be so big, especially for these babies and like you said, they go through so much. They really do and some births are really, really, really hard on them physically. Lindsay: Right. Yes, absolutely. Love it. Meagan: Love it. Love it, love it. Yeah. We love chiropractic care. We obviously feel that everyone should see a chiropractor if they can. We just love the information. We love what you do. We love that you work on my own personal clients. Lindsay: Thank you for sending them to me. I love them all. Meagan: Absolutely. Lindsay: I get so excited. Meagan: I know. I do too. I’m like, “Okay, great. We’ve got chiropractic care going on right now.” So it does matter. Even for births that aren’t VBAC, chiropractic care still matters. It is a big deal and a big component. Lindsay: Yeah. I just feel like moms don’t have to live with discomfort. Some discomforts just don't go away. It just happens, but for the most part, round ligament pain, your mid back pain, your low back pain– you don’t have to deal with that. You are growing a human. You should feel good. Not everyone loves pregnancy, but love it as much as you can. Feeling your best and not being in pain is definitely a huge plus. Meagan: Mhmm, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. Lindsay: No, thank you. Meagan: And your advice.Julie: It was great to see you again. Lindsay: Yes, you too. I love you guys so much. Julie: Aww, thank you. We have a great community of birth workers here. Chiropractors, midwives, doulas, birth photographers, out-of-hospital, and in-hospital obstetricians. We really do have a great community here. I just love it, especially when we have local people on that we get to love on a little bit. So thank you. Lindsay: No, thank you. Julie: And how can people find you if they are local to the Salt Lake Valley?Lindsay: Yeah, so my clinic is called Bluebird Chiropractic. You can go to bluebirdchiro.com It’s c-h-i-r-o and you can find me there. Look at my website and make an appointment online. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Show notes“Whenever I see someone that I know who has had a C-section, I’m like, ‘Did you know you don’t have to have another C-section? You can do something else!’”Mama, you have options! Carolyn shares her Cesarean and VBAC stories with us today about how she explored all the birth options available to her and made informed decisions along the way. Carolyn especially took advantage of optimal fetal positioning resources. She went from pushing for hours with no progress during her first labor to one great push and a successful VBAC with her second. Carolyn’s dream birth experience came true and she cannot stop reliving that sweet moment of catching her baby.Additional linksThe VBAC Link CommunityHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Julie: Welcome, welcome. You are listening to The VBAC Link podcast. This is Julie. I am here with Meagan and we are so excited to be with you on another Wednesday. It is kind of fun rocking and rolling again with the podcast and hearing all sorts of people's stories. Today, we will have interviewed somebody in each time zone in the United States. I am pretty sure. We are in one and our guest today is from Kansas City. We are really excited. I love the Midwest. Everyone thinks I’m crazy. Maybe it is because I haven’t been there for any winter, but I really love the Midwest, especially in springtime. It is just perfect to me. I love it. One day, I don’t know. If I ever get to be rich and get to have multiple houses, I might own a house in the Midwest so that I can have a nice springtime there. But anyway, we are talking with Carolyn who is an incredible woman. She has a three-year-old and a one-year-old and she lives, like I said, in Kansas City. She’s a senior marketing manager and we are so excited to hear from her today. Before we do that, Meagan has a Review of the Week for us. Meagan, do you want to go ahead and share?Review of the WeekMeagan: Yes, I do. This is from holmclaugh90. It says, “I listen every single day. After a traumatic Cesarean with my first baby five years ago and multiple miscarriages in between, this is a breath of fresh air as I await my chance to have a VBAC this October with my second, I love every story I hear on this podcast and it makes me feel so much stronger in knowing that I can do this.”And I want you to know that this is, let’s see. She posted this actually last July, so I was going to say, “Yes. You are strong enough,” but holmclaugh90, if you’re still listening, we want to know how things went last October. Please, please follow up with us.Julie: Yeah. We love hearing updates. I love it when people come around full circle. Oh my gosh, Meagan, this week it is mid-June and I had a Facebook memory show up. Our very first podcast episode was published years ago last week. It was the second week of June and it is so crazy to be at four years. Some people have been listening to our podcast and have had one or two babies after listening to our podcast. It is so crazy to think that we have so many incredible stories coming full circle now and it’s just fun to have been on this journey with you guys for so long. I love it.Carolyn’s StoryJulie: Okay, we are going to get to Carolyn's story and I just love it. I was just reading through some of her show notes here and I just absolutely love how she talks about asking for what you need. Ask for the tub or the nurse who is more VBAC friendly. The last thing you want is to be surprised in the hospital room. And yes, ask for everything. I can’t wait to hear all of the incredible things that she asked for that helped her get her VBAC. So Carolyn, do you want to take it over and share your story with us?Carolyn: Yeah, absolutely. I’m so excited.Julie: Thanks.Carolyn: All right well, yeah. So really for me, it seems like forever ago, but in July 2018 when I got pregnant for the first time, luckily I had a very easy time getting pregnant. A really easy pregnancy and actually, my sister-in-law was pregnant at the same time. I will probably reference her a couple of times. That was super helpful to me. She had previously been pregnant and her pregnancy actually ended up in an unplanned C-section and not her ideal labor, so I feel like I thought I had a lot of lessons from her. Spoiler alert, she ended up getting her VBAC with her second pregnancy. She actually had a home birth. She is super amazing. So I feel like going into my first pregnancy, I was like, “I’ve got it. I know what to do. I have a leg up even.” And so I did all of the things. I ate the dates. I drank the tea. I did prenatal yoga, all the good stuff and I was interested in doing an unmedicated birth. I wasn’t super anti-epidural, but I hoped. I just wanted it to be normal. You see movies and you see TV shows. That’s what you expect, right?For me, the day after my due date, my water broke. I think I actually laughed out loud because it just seemed so ridiculous that that would happen. I even made my husband come look at the fluid on the floor which is gross, but I needed to show somebody. I had an OB appointment that day, so we actually just went in. It was at eight in the morning so it was really fast from when that happened. She confirmed that yep, it was amniotic fluid.I was only 1 centimeter dilated and she was essentially like, “Go home. Get labor going. Keep me updated." So we went back home and I couldn’t believe this when I was writing this up. I was at home for 10 hours before we even made a move to the hospital. Those contractions were just on and off. We went on a walk. We made cupcakes. We watched a movie.At some point, I was getting frustrated. My water broke. I didn’t want to be in a situation where it had been a really long time, so actually, I went to my chiropractor who I had been seeing throughout pregnancy. She also does acupuncture, so I went to her during labor which is kind of wild and got that acupuncture which was bizarre. I had never done that before and that was the first time I had ever had it. I sat on the birthing ball in her office with all of the needles and everything and sure enough, I went home and my contractions were consistently five minutes apart, four minutes apart. Around 10, my doula came over. I should have picked up her vibe. She was very relaxed, very like, “I see what’s going on here,” but I was very antsy to start going to the hospital. Of course, there was a huge thunderstorm right when we left. We live really close to the hospital. We got there and I was only 3 or 4 centimeters dilated, so I was feeling “meh” about that. I wish I would’ve been more, but it is what it is. I labored in the room for pretty much most of the night. I eventually got in the tub and that was amazing. It was really relaxing and continued to help me progress. I got out at about five in the morning when my OB came in there. I was 9 centimeters and 100% effaced so that was super awesome. She did let me know that I actually had– I didn’t even know this was a thing– a fore bag of waters. Even though my water had broken, there was still more. She asked for my consent to break it. She is amazing, by the way. I will say that a hundred times. I said, “yes”, so she basically broke my water. I think I peed in the hospital bed five times consecutively. I don’t know if that was just the warm water or whatever, so I’m just profusely apologizing to the nurses. Sure enough, that did the trick and I was at 10 centimeters. I was so excited. I was unmedicated. I was feeling really positive about labor and everything despite painful contractions. She did let me know that he was still pretty high up and wanted to have me breathe through the contractions for another while before I started pushing, so I then spent several hours in all types of positions. Around noon, I started pushing. I actually did try nitrous oxide which put me in a good mood, but it didn’t really help me that much. I think at around 2:00 p.m., I looked at the clock and I just started saying, “This isn’t right. What is going on? How could this be? I’ve been at 10 centimeters since eight in the morning and it is 2:00 p.m.” I just did not understand. It’s not that no one was sharing with me information. It was just stalled and I was starting to act a little bit crazy. Each contraction would come and I was bracing the hospital bed saying, “Don’t make me do it,” just kind of getting crazy, so I talked about the epidural. My husband and I had actually made a safe word so that he knew I really meant, “No, this is real. I really want the epidural.” So I did get that and yes, absolutely. It helped me rest. I took a two-hour nap. I was able to also let my husband and doula rest as well. So now, it’s 4:00 p.m. My doctor came in. I believe I told her, “I could do this for hours. I am renewed. Let’s rock it.” They turned the epidural down and I pushed for another two hours. My doctor is really straightforward but extremely empathetic. She basically said, “He is not coming down.” I think she said that he was barely at +1 and I didn’t fully know what that meant, but I knew in my heart that it was not happening. I asked her about forceps. I said, “What about the vacuum?” All of these things I am just asking her like, “Is there anything left to do?” She was not pushy at all about a C-section. We started to have that conversation of, “Is this direction we are going to go?” For us, the baby was not in distress. I was not in distress. It was not an emergency, but we talked about it for another little bit and finally decided that this was the right thing to do. It was 8:30 p.m., almost two days after my water broke and as they do, they moved really quickly. One bright star in the C-section process was that the anesthesiologist was super nice. I think that sometimes I hear a lot of stories where people don’t have friendly anesthesiologists, but he was really friendly. We had to negotiate to have both my husband and the doula in the room. I felt really strongly about that because I wanted someone with me but also someone with the baby, so after the baby came out, my husband went with the baby and my doula stayed up with me holding my hands and everything. Also, the anesthesiologist actually asked me if I wanted any music and played a particular song that I was very into at the moment, and so I always remember that as a good moment. Once they started the C-section, I was really uncomfortable and really, really not feeling it. I wouldn’t say I was screaming, but I was making noise to the point where my doctor kept asking me, “Are you okay?” And I just said, “I don’t like it. I don’t like this feeling, the tugging, the pressure, and all of it.” I even asked one of the nurses, I was like, “Am I a little out of the norm?” She said, “Yeah. It was a little hard to concentrate.” Oh well. But my son came out that evening at 9:20. He was healthy. Everything was great with him. I was so anxious and shaky. I knew it wasn’t a good idea to hold him and honestly, I was just mentally feeling so out of it. I actually asked the anesthesiologist to calm me down, fully knowing that it meant to just basically give me a little something in there to make me fall asleep, and I did for about 20 minutes.At the end of the night, I was able to hold my son. I hated missing out on that magic hour right there, but I knew it also wasn’t feeling right for me to take him until I was a little calmer and less shaky, less manic, and all of that. So that was my C-section story.I was pretty upset about it afterward. I actually even remember watching an episode of Grey’s Anatomy three or four days postpartum. There was an episode where someone doesn’t know she is pregnant and gives birth in an emergency–  just a vaginal, unmedicated birth. I was so upset. I had to turn off the TV. So I knew right away that I did want to try for a VBAC and luckily, someone had recommended the Facebook group and The VBAC Link podcast. I feel like so many people say this on here, and now I am saying it too. I listened to every single episode on my daily walks. I was just obsessed with VBACs in my second pregnancy.With that, when I got pregnant again, my doctor again reiterated, “You are a good candidate,” and I actually didn’t change anything. I had my same OB, same doula, and same hospital and I feel like that is pretty uncommon. I feel like a lot of people who don’t have the experience they desire with a C-section, maybe it’s because they didn’t have a supportive doctor. Maybe it’s because they didn’t like the environment. For me, that wasn’t the issue. He was just stuck, so I stayed with all of my providers. I did make a couple of changes. I still did all the same things– the dates, the yoga, the tea. Probably the biggest change I made, thankfully or unthankfully due to the pandemic, was that I was working from home, so I went on a walk every single day. I was active during my first pregnancy, but I feel like the walks were really intentional for me. They were really a good grounding place for me to be in my pregnancy. When you are working, when you have another child, it’s hard to be like, “Hey, I am pregnant right now.”Meagan: Yeah. Yeah or even just focus on it. Yeah.Carolyn: Yeah. Whether I was listening to The VBAC Link, music, or whatever it is, it gave me that little 20 or 30 minutes a day of just, “Yep. This is for me.” Something else that I got tipped off from I think one of your podcast episodes was something super specific within Spinning Babies. I know a lot of people love Spinning Babies but for me, because my son with my C-section was just in such a bad position, I got hyperfocused on that. One of the things they talk about in Spinning Babies is to rest smart or the flashlight test which sounds kind of weird, but it makes sense when you hear it explained. Basically, your belly button either should be pointing out or down, not ever up. So when you think about sleeping or sitting on the couch or working, I was super obsessed with this. I was watching TV on the ball throughout my whole pregnancy. I was not laying down. I was not leaning back. I wasn’t reclining or anything and as silly as it may seem, who knows if that made a difference or not, but the baby certainly ended up in a good position. So that was one thing that was probably a little abnormal that I hung on to.Meagan: Well, I will just tell you that you are not alone because I did the same thing with my son. In fact, I didn’t even sit on a couch for nine months.Carolyn: Oh my god.Meagan: Like legitimately, I wouldn’t sit on the couch. I sat on the floor cross-legged, pelvis tilted up. That was totally me and driving very properly. That was totally me.Carolyn: Yep. Yep. Yes, yes. We went on a road trip at one point when I was pregnant and I think I stuffed two or three coats behind me so I was almost leaning forward in the car. I was like, “This is ridiculous, but not if it works.” It’s only weird if it doesn’t work as I say.Meagan: Oh and if you don’t do it and there is a thing, then you are sitting there questioning, “Well, what if I would’ve done it?” At least that’s where my mind went, anyway.Carolyn: Oh no I know. No, I’m the same way. At that point, it was not like it was causing me pain. I wasn’t frustrated by it. I was just like, “This is what I do now. This is how I am.”Meagan: Right. Yeah, yeah.Carolyn: There was an end in sight, so I didn’t mind it too much. Other things I did towards the end, I did do the curb walking which actually was just sort of funny. In my neighborhood, all of the streets are sloped so there are actually no curbs really, so I had to either drive or walk a pretty solid distance to get somewhere that had real curbs. I always ended up in a parking lot of some office park or somewhere weird where people were like, “What is this really pregnant lady doing walking around?” But I loved the curb walking. I did the forward-leaning inversions. During the last week of my pregnancy, I was starting to get really anxious. My doctor was not pushy about induction at all. I don’t even think the word came up. She was not concerned about me going over. I was a day late with my first. I didn’t know, obviously, what was going to happen with my second, but I started to get into a bad rabbit hole of negative thoughts. It’s one of the things I actually did– no hate to Facebook and all of the good things that you find in your Facebook groups– but I actually muted or left all of the pregnancy, birth, mom, all of the things that I followed on Facebook and on Instagram. I did stop listening to the podcast for the last week. It was just too much information at that point and I was starting to get so anxious about things not ending the way I wanted.Meagan: You know what? That’s not a bad thing to unplug. I actually encourage that to my clients. I’m like, “Unplug from social media and from people who may not be providing you support. Just unplug. It’s okay to just be with you, your body, and your baby.Carolyn: Yeah. So actually it was really helpful and it also let me enjoy the last couple of weeks with my son. It was the last time he was going to be our only baby. Your whole world is going to change when you bring home the second one. So that was really nice. I’m laughing thinking back on that phase because he was just turning. He’s three and a half now almost and a very different child at three and a half than he was at two. At two, he was a little, sweet, big brother. Now he is solid and in the toddler phase. I did go a week late this time and again, I tried to just tune everything out. What’s funny is that again, with working from home, I didn’t have a reason to really stop working because I wasn’t commuting to work. I wasn’t going to end up in a situation where you are at the office going into labor. I wasn’t home. So every day, I just logged off being like, “Maybe this is the last day.”On the day that I had the baby, I woke up to a pretty strong contraction. I had been having some, but obviously, none that ever came to anything. This one did feel a little bit different. I did say to my husband, I was like, “I don’t know, but I am feeling this one.” I kept intending that morning to go upstairs to my computer and start my workday. I just kept having that subconscious nesting feeling I guess. I kept, “Oh, I need to tidy this room. I need to do the dishes.” I don’t even know what I was doing and then I would be constantly interrupted by these contractions. My husband was working from home as well and I didn’t even really notice it at the time, but I had already started to vocalize through my contractions, making a fair amount of noise. He is wrapping up his last meeting of the day. Meanwhile, I am downstairs making scary birthday noises so I apologize to anybody who was on that call. But similarly, actually, I had a scheduled appointment that day but we called to go in sooner. We went into my OB‘s office around 10. I probably scared half of the people in her waiting room because I was fully in labor, pacing around and making noise. I was not a pleasant person to be around.Even when we left the house, I told my husband, Isaac, “Oh, well you are grabbing the bags?” And he was like, “Yeah. We are grabbing the bags. We’re not coming home. We are having a baby.” I just was in disbelief and when I got to her office, she was joking with me. She was like, “Okay, are we having a baby today?” She checked me and this was actually my first check all pregnancy. Again, this OB is so amazing. She does not push checks. When I started listening to your podcast, I didn’t even know there were OBs who push for checks that are not necessarily wanted by the patient. I didn’t know that was a thing because my OB never did that. She never even brought it up, so I feel lucky that I never ended up in that situation. Again, if it is something that people want, then you want it. But for me, I don’t want to be checked unless I am being asked to and it is necessary. So she checked me and I was already 7 centimeters dilated. I was in complete shock. I was so happy. And she confirmed, “Okay. You are definitely in active labor. I will meet you at the hospital.” I was like, “Oh. Oh, okay. We are going right now.” One thing she did was that she called ahead to the hospital so I got to be directly admitted. I got to skip triage which was amazing. At least at this hospital, which is a great hospital with great nurses and staff and everything, their triage situation was so unpleasant for me with my first son. It is a tiny, tiny little room. You are just getting poked and prodded, and it is really unpleasant. So I just got wheeled all the way to my room. I actually got the last room that was available. It was a busy labor day I guess.Meagan: I was going to say a busy night or a busy day.Carolyn: Yes. Yeah. I was given the last room and actually when we got there, I realized it was the same room in the hospital where I had my son. I was like, “Okay, I don’t know if that is a bad sign because he ended up in a C-section or a good sign that this is the same room I was in.” I haven’t confirmed this with my doctor actually, but she must have told the nurses when she called in that I was a patient who was wanting an unmedicated VBAC because no one mentioned the word “epidural”, no one mentioned any interventions, any drugs or anything and it was so amazing. I feel like I was really worried about having to fight or having to push back on nurses who don’t know me, but she must have told them because that was just too good to be true.Something else that was kind of funny about the room– on the whiteboard, the nurses had put up this standard, “Goal number one: healthy baby. Goal number two: healthy mom.” My husband actually erased it and he wrote, “Goal one: healthy baby, healthy mom. Goal two: baby out of vagina.” We died laughing. We took a picture of it. I think I posted in the Facebook group because I was just like, “Yep, mhmm. That is the goal.”Julie: I love that.Carolyn: My doula came in. This is now at 11:00 a.m. This time, I got to use their wireless monitor which was super cool and much less uncomfortable than the other type. The same kind of deal, my doula drew the bath for me. It was really relaxing for me. But these contractions I could tell were getting stronger faster. It was just progressing much more quickly and at about 1:00 p.m., that wireless monitor was being a little iffy. They also wanted me to get out to pee, so I got out at 1:07. They checked me and there were like, “Okay. You are pretty much fully dilated,” but my water was in the way because this time my water hadn’t broken. So again, my OB asked if it was okay to break my water. She did and I gave them a warning. I said, “Okay, warning. There might be a lot of fluid just based on how I was last time,” and sure enough, the same thing. An absurd amount of fluid came out. The nurse was calling for more towels and I peed both on the bed and on the ground. I am just a pee machine, I don’t know. So after that, she confirmed, “Yep. You are fully dilated.” I tried to go to the actual bathroom to go pee, but as soon as I sat down on the toilet, I was like, “This is what that feels like, that fetal ejection reflex. This is it.” And the panic on the nurses’ faces when I said, “Yeah. I am not trying to push but I am pushing.” They were like, “Get out of the bathroom right now!” I was relieved to feel that because I never really got to that point with my son. This whole time, I kept wanting to say to my OB, “Can you just tell me there’s no going back now and I am getting a VBAC?” But I was too scared to jinx it. And like I said before, she was really straightforward so I didn’t want to put her in a situation to have to tell me, “No. It’s not looking good actually.” So I came out of the bathroom and started pushing. I tried a couple of different positions and eventually switched to a sitting-up-throne position. I don’t know if that is really what it was called. It was a lot more comfortable for me. They had all of these handlebars and little props for my feet to go in. To me, I felt like it was taking a long time, but I could tell from the reactions of the nurses and my doctor that things were progressing in a good way. The reactions were really excited and everyone was encouraging me. I was nervous, but I was so excited. From what it sounded like, I was pretty much holding my breath while I was pushing. I could see them getting oxygen ready. That freaked me out because that was not something I went through with my first labor. I feel like actually maybe from listening to my podcast, I know that in some cases, that is something that they do when the baby is in distress, so when she came with the oxygen, I was like, “Oh my gosh. Is the baby okay?” And they were like, “No, no, no. You just literally need oxygen.” I’m telling you before I knew it, everyone was screaming, “Grab her!” And I’m like, “What do you mean, ‘Grab her?!’”Sure enough, there she was. I pulled her out and up onto my chest and I was in absolute disbelief. We have a video and I’m saying “I can’t believe it. I can’t believe it. I can’t believe it.” I just really pictured it being a lot slower of just one push, and then another push, and then another push but really it was– at least to me, it felt like one big push and she was perfectly healthy. I held her almost for an hour before they even took her to go give her the full check-up. I did have some pretty severe tearing which was not ideal, but I will take it. I feel like I had nurses and other people be like, “Oh my gosh. I am so sorry about the tear,” and I was like, “Literally, what are you talking about? I do not care about that. I got my VBAC. My baby is perfect. Everything is great as it should be.” That night, I did not even sleep a wink. Not because of the baby, but I was just so happy. I just kept reliving the day. I mean truly, it was everything I wanted it to be and it just made me so happy. I feel like it made me become a VBAC spokesperson because whenever I see someone that I know who has had a C-section, I’m like, “Did you know you don’t have to have another C-section? You can do something else!”Meagan: You have options!Carolyn: Yes, I know. I’m like, “I need little cards to pass out.” But yeah, that is the whole thing. Yeah. So grateful to the podcast, and to the Facebook group, and friends and family, and my husband, and doula, and OB, and everybody, but just an amazing experience and something, obviously, that I will never forget.Meagan: Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know it is funny because one of the other episodes that we were just talking about, I am like, yeah this is Sili texting, like talking about it and you just said the word against you but I’m like it is so crazy how some of these babies just come out like that.Carolyn: Yes.Meagan: Other moms, they push for hours and hours. It’s just so crazy how different our bodies and pelvises are, but they all still usually come out. That’s what we want in the end– a baby.Yes. But huge congrats though. Seriously, so awesome. So happy for you and we are so grateful that you were with us today.Carolyn: Yeah, thank you so much.Julie: Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing.ClosingInterested in sharing your VBAC story on the podcast? Submit your story at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Thinking there was no way she would go into labor with her VBAC baby at 37 weeks, Emily and her husband traveled to a family wedding. It was only a four-hour drive away from her birthing place. It was just for one night. She’d be laboring for the first time. Even if labor started, she’d have plenty of time to get back home. Right? Thanks to her physical, mental, and emotional birth preparation, Emily was able to stay calm and present when her birth took a wild turn. She rode each wave gracefully and allowed her body to take over when it needed to. You are sure to be left feeling inspired by Emily’s impressive strength!Additional linksGentle Birth App Meditation and Contraction TimerThe VBAC Link CommunityHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Happy Wednesday, everybody. This is Meagan and Julie with The VBAC Link and we are so excited, as always, to share with you another amazing story. We have our friend, Emily, today and she is going to share her VBAC story. She’s actually in New York if I remember correctly and has quite the story to share, you guys. I kind of feel like we have a celebrity right now on the podcast because her story has seriously been featured everywhere. Like, seriously everywhere. People, USAToday, Inside Edition, Good Morning America, and yours truly, The VBAC Link here now. Julie: Almost right up there with them. Meagan: If we were as all of those platforms, then that would be really cool, but yeah. We are so excited to bring this story to you today. We are going to dive into her story really soon, but Julie has a Review of the Week, so we will hurry and do that, and then we’ll dive right in. Review of the WeekJulie: Yeah, absolutely. I love it. I am so excited to hear this story. I love a good– type of story that this is. I almost gave a spoiler alert. This is my favorite type of birth story, so I can’t wait to hear it. But yes, our review this week is from Kaytjtvgml on Apple Podcasts.Meagan: Alphabet soup there. Julie: It’s called, “Thankful for the timing of this preparation tool! I have been listening to this podcast as well as following along with the Facebook group ‘The VBAC Link Community.’” Plug-in for the Facebook group.“I desired a VBAC right after having my elective Cesarean but just started off with a little hope and faith. Having tools and knowledge helps me sooo much mentally. I have learned and continue to learn from every episode. Each one makes me feel closer and closer to that victorious moment when my second baby is born vaginally. Even if things don’t work in my favor, I still wouldn’t trade this knowledge for anything. Hoping for a late June (or early July!)” Oh, that’s like right now! “vaginal birth and to be able to share my story.”Well, we are so excited about your upcoming delivery, and definitely let us know how things go. If you are listening and you haven’t had a chance to leave a review yet, drop us a review on Apple Podcasts, Facebook, or on Google. We just got a couple of Google reviews last week and that made my heart really, really happy. So if we have helped you in any way, please let us know. You can shoot us a message on Instagram or Facebook. I don’t know. You can contact us in all the ways. We love hearing from you and we love knowing how we have helped you along your journey. So thanks so much “Kaytjtvgml” on Apple Podcasts and everyone else who has taken their time to leave us a sweet review.  Emily’s StoryMeagan: Awesome. All right well, let’s get into this story. I’m so excited about this story. Julie: All right, Emily. Do you want to take it over?Emily: Sure. Thanks for having me. I just want to say that I listened to The VBAC Link podcast a lot while I was pregnant and I am also a part of the Facebook group and all of that stuff. I actually bought the course as well. I had the book and all of that, so thanks for that. Julie: Yay. Absolutely. Emily: I think the best place to start is with my first birth because I won’t go into too much detail with it, but I think because of that birth– obviously, I had the VBAC, but I think because of that birth, I don’t know if I would have had the kind of experience I had if that makes sense. I think I had such a positive experience because it really lit a fire under me. I did so much more research and really prepared myself to the point where I just wanted this VBAC more than anything, so I really ended up having a positive experience.With my first, I was with midwives. I had a doula. I was planning unmedicated at a birthing center. I felt pretty educated and looking back, I honestly was. I did a lot of research. My doula was fabulous. We had a bunch of prenatal appointments. I was reading all of the books, watching documentaries, and listening to a ton of podcasts, so I felt really good about it, and then it turns out that my son was breech. For me, I desperately wanted to deliver vaginally. I was very comfortable assessing the risks and benefits of vaginal breech birth and I wanted to do vaginal. But unfortunately, when I found out and when I was due, which was right around Labor Day, anyone who was trained in vaginal breech birth was either on vacation, or they weren’t accepting any more clients, or the hospital put a ban on breech births. At the time of my first birth, I didn’t feel comfortable traveling more than four hours away at that point. So the best decision at the time was a planned C-section. I’d also like to mention that I did everything under the sun to try to get my son to turn including an ECV and it was not happening. I was seeing a chiropractor. I did lots of moxibustion. I was doing Spinning Babies and actually, even during the ECV, the doctor was able to turn my son head-down actually pretty easy. As soon as the doctor took his hands away, my son scurried back to head-up, butt-down. And then we tried it the other way. Counterclockwise, same thing. He just went right back into the same position. I am not sure why, but that did happen. With the planned C-section, I decided, “Okay, if I’m going to have a C-section, I want it to be the absolute most gentle, best family-centered C-section that I could possibly have. So I did advocate for myself quite a bit. I did have my choice of music playing and my husband had lavender oil that I was smelling. I was basically completely naked because I wanted my son to be on my chest as soon as he was born. They took him out pretty slowly because I wanted to try to have as much of a vaginal squeeze-type experience for him. We did delay cord clamping for about 90 seconds. They wrapped him in a warm towel during that and then put him on my chest so while they were sewing me up, he was on my chest the whole time which was great. I also did vaginal seeding with him and I had some expressed colostrum with me that I brought to the hospital that I used a little bit but he pretty much latched right when we were in the recovery room. My doula was able to come with me to the recovery room before I got to my main room. So all in all, a really great C-section.It was still an incredibly devastating experience which I think mentally was very isolating for me because to everyone else, it looked like a great experience. I healed really well. I had instant skin-to-skin and breastfeeding was going well. On paper, it looked like everything was fine. It was a planned C-section so I had a good night’s sleep. We woke up, but I did miss all of the rushes of hormones. I missed the experience of giving birth vaginally which I desperately wanted. So it really was not the experience that I was planning on. Everyone’s situation is different, but I think for a lot of people, a very common story is they didn’t really do a lot of research. They didn’t know. They just trusted their doctor. They walked into the hospital. There was a cascade of interventions, and then they ended up with an unplanned C-section. That’s unfortunately very common for me. I was like, “I am at a birthing center. I have a doula. I know what I am doing.” So when I did have the C-section, it felt incredibly devastating. I don’t know how to describe it, but it just felt like I did all of the work, and also, what I think made it really difficult was that I wanted to deliver him vaginally breach. I wasn’t like, “Oh well, he is breech so that sucks. C-section is the safest route.” That’s not how I felt. It may have been. There is no way to know. More than likely, it would have been fine to deliver him vaginally, so I just felt like I didn’t have that experience. So I very much wanted a VBAC. So much so that when the surgeon was sewing me up, one of the nurses was taking pictures of my uterus and I was like, “Do a double-layer closure.” Even as she was closing me up, she was like, “You are going to get your VBAC. Don’t worry. I’m doing great stitching. You’re going to be great.” Because everyone in the room, including my midwife who was actually in the room with me during the surgery, all knew how badly I wanted a vaginal birth. So anyway, fast forward. I got pregnant when my son was two. We were team green this time because part of that was that I felt like it was no surprise to us with my first birth. I found out the gender and it was a planned C-section, and I felt that because I didn’t have any of the hormones of labor, I just kind of went in for brunch or something or just an appointment, and then all of a sudden they were like, “Your baby is here,” and I wasn’t feeling anything. I did want some element of surprise, so I thought, “Okay. Even if I don’t get my VBAC and I have to do another C-section, at least I will have the element of surprise of finding out the gender.” In hindsight, my birth was plenty exciting and I did not need to find out the gender of my child.Moving forward, my pregnancy was totally fine. I had the same midwives and the same doulas, and I didn’t get to really use them in labor the first time. They are great. I really like them. And from this pregnancy, some things that I was doing differently: I was very concerned about the positioning of the baby. I was seeing a Webster-certified chiropractor even before I was pregnant. She was doing (inaudible) and dry needling on my C-section scar, and really just making sure that I was in the best alignment and had the most space possible to have this baby get into the best position. Certainly, I don’t want a breech baby, but even if the baby is head down, I wanted the baby in an optimal position for the easiest labor which ended up working. That worked really well for me. One other thing that I actually haven’t mentioned when talking about this birth is that I was born with hip dysplasia and dislocated hips when I was born. It was discovered late, so I was put in a cast and then a brace, and then when I was in my twenties, I had something called a Periacetabular osteotomy which was a pretty intense surgery on my hips. So also, in the back of my mind, there is some asymmetry in my hips and I wasn’t sure of the way my pelvis would move and flex during labor. So that was another reason why I really wanted chiropractic work during it. I also was doing Spinning Babies religiously. It’s something that my doula mentioned the first time and I was like, “Yay. Okay, cool.” I didn’t really do it too much. I was wearing heels all of the time. This time, I was very careful with all of the Spinning Babies stuff, never leaning back, and getting into the right position. So anyway, all of that is to say the pregnancy went super well and smoothly. I had a C-section with my son when I was 39 weeks and 1 day. Obviously, this was during the pandemic and I wasn’t seeing a lot of people during the pregnancy. My husband‘s cousin was getting married in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. We hadn’t seen our family in a long time, so I thought, “Let’s go out and go to the wedding. It’s fine.” I live in Westchester, New York, so it’s about a 3-3 1/2 hour drive from our house. The hospital where I was planning on having a VBAC with the midwives was in Connecticut, so from the wedding to the hospital is about fourish hours away. I thought, “First of all, I am only 37 1/2 weeks at the time of this wedding. The chances of me going into labor– it’s possible, but it’s not likely. I’m not super far along.” Especially since I was only 39+1 with my son and there were no real signs of labor. So I drove out to the wedding. I figured, “Okay. If I happen to go into labor on this one day, I will just be in early labor. We will just drive back and we will go to the hospital, or I will go home, labor at home for a little bit, call the doula, and then we will head over to the hospital when things are progressing.It seemed like a very reasonable plan because who has a baby in less than three or four hours for their first-time labor? That just seems like yes it’s possible, but again, I was just trying to look at the statistics as well. How long is first-time labor? I’m thinking, “Okay, somewhere in the realm of 16-24 hours. Something in that kind of range.” Anyway, so we went to the wedding. It was great and super fun. We left. There was a hotel where we were where the wedding was, so we went back to the hotel probably around 11-ish at night and we were in bed in our hotel room at 11:30, so it was close to midnight. I maybe had fallen asleep for a minute. I felt like I had to pee which happens when you’re pregnant, but I had just peed at 11:30 so I’m like, “How is it that I have to pee again?” But whatever. I stood up to go pee and I just felt all of this warm liquid rush out of me.My first thought, like a lot of people's first thought is, “Am I peeing?” But it wasn’t stopping so then I felt like, “Okay. This might be my water.” I went to the bathroom, changed, tried to go back to bed and the water was still leaking. At that point, I was like, “Okay. My water has broken. This is definitely a thing.” The liquid was clear. I was GBS negative. There was no odor. Everything was good. Obviously at that point, no one had checked how dilated I was or anything, so I was not concerned about any kind of infection. Obviously, I was pretty much at term and I had good prenatal care with no concerns. There was no kind of panicking.So I woke up my husband around midnight. He was just sleeping for a second and I was like, “Hey, my water broke. I’m not really concerned. I’m not really having any kind of contractions. If contractions start, let’s pack it up and head back, but this could be a day or two before contractions even begin and then once that happens, it could be another 16 to 24 hours.” So correct me if I’m wrong, but that seems like how it is when the water breaks and you are not going into labor immediately.Meagan: It happened with me, three for three.Emily: Yeah.Meagan: Every single time. I mean, with the third, I didn’t really go into labor for over 24 hours.Emily: Yeah. That’s kind of what I thought. Obviously, sometimes your water breaks and you’re in labor, but I was thinking, “Okay. If my water breaks and then I am in labor, will just leave.”Meagan: Right.Emily: And then also, I’m in the middle-of-nowhere Pennsylvania. I’m not going to go find an Amish midwife and run into her house or run to a random hospital where they know nothing about me other than I had a previous C-section and just be like, “I am not in labor, but my water broke.” That just seems insane.Meagan: I know. Yeah. A lot of the times, it’s better to just chill and hang out and monitor your symptoms.Emily: Yeah and wait for labor to start.Meagan: For things to start, yeah.Emily: Granted, hindsight is 20/20. I should have just left, but I figured, “Okay. If this is going to be–” My water broke and I said, “Okay. Here we go. Contractions haven’t started, but I have to get ready. I have to get my head in the game. This is going to be an adventure and I need to save my energy. I need to eat something. I need to try to sleep and just relax because this is going to be a wild ride. This is not the time for me to be awake and freaking out and all that.” So I told my husband basically all of that and I said, “Let’s just try to get some sleep and we will wake up at 5:00 or 6:00 a.m.. We will just try to get a couple of hours and then we will drive early in the morning. There won’t be any traffic and we will just head back when we are close or when it is a reasonable time in the morning like 7:00 or 8:00 a.m.. I can let our doula and our midwife know what’s up and they can come in the morning if I am not in labor to see the midwives or whatever they want to do. My husband is half asleep and he was like, “Okay. I mean, I guess that sounds good. If the fluid was clear, let’s just try to get some sleep.” All of the midwives and doulas that I have spoken to have been like, “Yes. That sounds very reasonable.” All of the general public is– you know my story went viral. I’ve had some comments here and there of people being like, “Why didn’t you immediately scream and run into a hospital?” I just don’t think that would have been the right decision for me. So anyways, I tried to go back to sleep but I couldn’t understandably.Meagan: Well, when your mind knows what’s happening, you are like, “I can’t go to sleep.”Emily: Yeah. So I was trying to fall asleep but I kept leaking fluid. It wouldn’t stop and I didn’t have diapers or anything with me, so the fluid is just leaking, and leaking, and leaking. I’m actually texting with one of my friends who has had two home births and she knows how badly I wanted this. She was like, “Girl, you need to pack up your stuff and get out of there. What are you doing? You are going to have this baby in the car.” I am like, “No. I am fine. It’s fine.” I have all of these text messages of our conversation now with her. It is hilarious.Meagan: So funny, yeah.Emily: But again, I was just like, “I’m fine.” I also really understood the pain-fear cycle and I just was so committed to being “chill”-- I’m putting that in quotes– during labor and just being focused, and staying positive, and breathing, and not letting fear sneak in. I feel like that almost pushed me so much that I was in denial a little bit about what was going on.So anyway at some point, I think it was probably around 2:30 a.m.,, I am up and down every two seconds. My poor hotel room was covered in amniotic fluid. I went to the bathroom and there was the bloody show. I am like, “Okay. Here we go.” Still, no contractions but things are picking up. At some point, I am pooping a lot, TMI, and I am like, “Okay. Here we go. Another sign. We are getting ready.”Meagan: Yeah. Your body is preparing to begin labor.Emily: Yes and I was like, “All of these signs are good.” 3:00 a.m. hit, so this is three hours after my water broke and contractions hit. They hit hard, and fast, and heavy and it completely took my breath away. I woke up my husband and I said, “Hey, contractions started. We should go.”I had maybe two or three contractions at that point and he was like, “Okay. I am going to run to the drugstore. I will pick up some adult diapers because you are still leaking or whatever just to protect the car,” which again, in hindsight, is very funny. So he goes to get the adult diapers and I do have a thought in my mind. I remember panicking for a second and thinking in my mind, “Don’t leave. Don’t leave me.” But I was just like, “Okay.” He left and he was like, “You pack up the room,” and I was like, “Okay. I looked over at my make-up, because we had just gone to a wedding, so I had my bra, and my dress, and my fake eyelashes, and my makeup and clothes are everywhere. It was a disaster. Meanwhile, these contractions are coming every four minutes, every three minutes and they are lasting a minute or more.Meagan: And strong.Emily: And strong. I am completely bent over on the bed having to breathe and I remember that one of the thoughts I was having was, “Oh my gosh. Is this early labor? If this is early labor, I can’t do this.” I was like, “No.” I shooed that thought away. I was like, “Nope. We are doing this. It’s happening, so get on board. We are doing this.” At on point as I am throwing everything into my suitcase, I stumble into the bathroom because I was jumping out of my skin and I felt like I needed some relief, and so I turned on the tub. I was like, “Oh, I will just get in the shower or the tub for a minute just for a second,” and then the other side of my brain was like, “Emily, you cannot take a bath. Get your crap and go. You don’t have time for a luxurious bath in this hotel. You have to get going.” So I had those two sides of my brain chatting with each other the whole time.I will say one of the things that I found incredibly helpful–  I mentioned a Webster certified chiropractor and having a very supportive team. I had my midwife, my doula and really educated myself so I didn’t have fear. Not necessarily in advocating for myself which of course, education is good for that, but also, I feel like the more you know about birth, the more normalized it is. I think if you don’t know anything about it, there is a certain level of fear of the unknown. I was very much in that world. A lot of my friends have had home births so I’m kind of in the universe, so birth did seem very normal to me. I don’t know if normal is the right word, but borderline uneventful. It is a very natural process most of the time.Meagan: Right.Emily: Where things most of the time go well. So that was kind of my mindset but the other thing I think that is incredibly important that I would like to mention is that I was using the Gentle Birth App for meditations during my pregnancy. I really doubled down on it the last couple of weeks. I was doing meditations and then about a week before this wedding, I downloaded their contraction timer which just came out. It was a new app. It was the same woman talking through the meditations, but it is with a contraction timer so you press the button when a contraction starts and it’s a woman’s voice. I couldn’t tell you what she said now, but it was all sorts of calming, wonderful things, and you turn it off and you rate the contraction. I forget how they label it, but it’s mild, medium and I forget. Intense might be the wrong word but it is three different levels. I just kept rating them as the lowest level because I was like, “It’s fine. This is fine. We are good. Everything is good,” and I kept rating them as mild even though I am completely doubled over. I am having to breathe through them and can’t talk.So my husband comes back. We are in the car at 4:00 a.m.. So at this point, it was an hour from when my contractions started. My water broke at midnight. So I was in labor for an hour at that point. We get in in the car. I am texting my sister-in-law. The other huge part of this– I feel like, with a lot of the headlines of my birth story, it’s hard. I want to share my story because I feel like I had such a wonderful, and powerful, and empowering experience. I want to hopefully help people, and educate people, and make people feel confident that they can do this, but with sharing something so personal, you do put a target on your back and there are some other comments from people about different things. I had to deal with people just reading a headline and not knowing any of the details of why did I make the decisions I made.I was at this wedding. I was supposed to drive my sister-in-law back in the morning. There was a brunch in the morning for everyone and we were supposed to drive her back to New York with us. So in my mind, I felt like, “Well, this baby isn’t coming for a day or two at least. I don’t want to abandon my sister-in-law in Amish country. I will wait a couple of hours and then maybe we will wake her up at 5:00 or 6:00 a.m. and then we go.” That seemed very reasonable to me. So as I am doubled over, I’m trying to get into my husband‘s car. I have a Jeep that is bigger. He has a Honda Accord which is pretty roomy, but not roomy enough for labor. I don’t know what car would be roomy enough for labor. But I was texting her and I was like, “Hey. Contractions started,” or something. “Everything is fine,” and then later, at 4:00 a.m. when I was in the car, I said something like, “This is getting really intense. We have to go. Sorry.” And then a half an hour later, I think she saw the text message. She starts calling me. She starts calling my husband. She was texting us and she was like, “What’s going on? Are you guys okay? What’s going on?” I couldn’t text back or answer and my husband just kept ignoring the call. This whole time, I am using the contraction timer not so much to time the contractions, but more for the meditation that went along with it. I was in the car in the front seat for a little bit, and then at some point, I moved to the backseat. But I ended up laboring in the car. We were driving for an hour and 45 minutes. That is the other part of the story that I think—Meagan: That sounds miserable.Emily: It was miserable. Yes. It’s so funny because when I listen to these podcasts with any kind of birth story and people talk about how, “I had to go into the car to get to the hospital.” They say that the first intervention is moving spaces when you are laboring and they are like, “That car ride was the worst.” I am like, “Oh yeah? How about almost 2 hours of it?” I mean, not that it’s a competition of whose labor sucks, but it’s very different– spoiler alert– having a baby in the car versus laboring in the car for hours. So anyway, I was in the front seat for a little bit. At some point, I was like, “I have to get out. Pull over. Pull over.” I sat up for a little bit and went to the backseat but this whole time, I was listening to the app. Also, I am not sponsored at all. This is just for a reference. I was just breathing and I was really focusing on everything that I learned. I was relaxing my jaw. I was doing low moans, nothing high-pitched. I was doing lip trills, like horse lips, when things were getting more intense. For some reason actually, keeping my eyes opened was better for me. At the time I felt like, “Oh, let me close my eyes and go inward,” but that almost made it more intense for me, so keeping my eyes open was helpful. However, I will say that at one point, I think it was probably right before transition or during transition, it was incredibly intense. I had those two sides of my brain talking. It was so intense and still, I was never screaming. I was never really loud. In my husband's defense, it just seemed like I was hanging out in the backseat just going, “Ohhhh,” for two hours. So I remember that it got really intense and one side of my brain was saying, “Okay. Your options are, you can open the door and throw yourself into traffic or you can just ride these waves and this is just what it is.” And I just thought, “Okay. This is just what it is. Obviously, I am not throwing myself into traffic, so I just have to breathe. I just have to breathe. I don’t have to do anything. My body is doing it for me. I just have to breathe. This isn’t going to last forever.” I think that at one point I said out loud to my husband, “Remind me that there is a baby at the end of this,” because I was so in it. I couldn’t even really remember that I was in labor and there was a baby. It was just a tornado that was happening. Also sorry, the story is jumping around, but again in hindsight, I was having prodromal labor for about a week or two before this night.Meagan: So plug-in, sometimes a history of prolonged prodromal labor can result in a precipitous birth. I’m going to throw that out there.Emily: Ah, good to know.Meagan: When our doula clients have prodromal labor for weeks or even for a week, it is like, “Okay. When things seem to turn, we need to be on full alert.”Julie: That was how mine was.Emily: That is so interesting.Julie: By the time I realized it was real and by the time things actually shifted, it was less than three hours before she was born. My prodromal labor was 22 days. It was awful.Meagan: Anyway, keep going. So you had prodromal labor–Emily: I was having prodromal labor and again, I was in denial. At one point, I actually took a Pepto-Bismol. That’s how strong of denial I was in. However, at one point it was happening so much, especially at night. The waves were coming every 15 minutes. I could time it, like set my watch to it, and then they were coming consistently every 10 minutes. I was having a contraction about every 10 minutes but it was only lasting 30-45 seconds. That was happening not every single night but every couple of nights for two weeks before this. I just kept ignoring it because it just felt like period cramps.Meagan: Kind of stagnant and never really progressed in a forward motion.Emily: Yeah. It was never at a point where I was like, “Here we go.”Meagan: “Here we go,” yeah.Emily: It was kind of just like Braxton Hicks but more intense.Meagan: I don’t know though. Even when things are seeming, “Here we go,” you didn’t respond like, “Here we go.”Emily: No.Meagan: I totally get what you are saying, but I am just joking. You have a really strong pain tolerance or discomfort tolerance.Emily: Yes. Even in the throes of labor, again in my defense, I still thought I was in early labor because labor started at 3:00 a.m., and here I am and it is 5:00 a.m. in the car.Meagan: Right, yeah.Emily: That baby isn’t coming out of me now. That is insane. Of course, you hear of stories like that on podcasts once in a while. You are like, “Well, that is a crazy story. Obviously, statistically that will not happen to me. I’m going to have the normal, long labor that stalls that I need to do curb walking for. That is going to be me because that is the majority or at least that is what it the majority seems like. I did not think I was going to have a precipitous birth. Again, sorry. I am ruining this whole story but I am sure if there is a title on this episode, people already know.Meagan: I don’t think you are ruining it at all.Emily: Thank you. Long story short, there was another point. Oh and it’s contraction timer, but you also get it saved in your phone so I actually have a printout and a saved PDF of all of my contractions, and the times of them, and how long they were, and how I rated them. I was timing my contractions up until five minutes before my daughter was born, so that is how much of in denial I was that I was still timing my contractions when I’m literally pushing.Meagan: Still thinking it’s early, yes.Emily: Yes, yes. I texted my doula at some point because I knew that she kept her phone off and that if we needed her to answer in the middle of the night, we call her from this other number. But in general, she kept her phone off so I figured, “Okay. I will text her and if she happened to be up, she will see it.” I just let her know what was happening. She called us and I couldn’t talk at that point but my husband was talking to her. At that point, it was maybe 5:00 a.m., 5:15 a.m., maybe two hours into labor and we were still somewhere out of Pennsylvania or maybe somewhere in New Jersey. We were chatting. Well, I wasn’t chatting but he was chatting, “Okay, maybe we will meet at the house. Maybe we will meet at the hospital. Maybe we should meet at the house and pick up the bag, and labor a little bit there and see how we feel.” That’s where my mind was. I thought we had time to get from where we were in New Jersey all the way back to Westchester, New York, labor and hang out, grab my bag, maybe eat something, and then go to the hospital and labor there. So that’s where I was.Meagan: I keep giggling, but that’s where you were. That’s where your mind was. You believed that’s where you were.Emily: Yes.Meagan: As a doula, that’s like, “Pedal to the metal! Let’s have a line of cops to follow. Let’s get there.”Emily: Yes and in hindsight, looking at my contraction timer, it was every three minutes or less for like a minute, a minute and a half long the whole time. At one point, I was rating the contractions moderately which were at a middle zone when they were incredibly intense. I was like, “Oh. These are a little stronger,” during the time, but I wasn’t going to throw myself into traffic. At one point, I think it was 5:15 AM. I have the exact timeline because of that PDF from the timer, but somewhere around there I was like, “I have to get out. I have to get out of the car and pull over.” So my husband pulled over and I stood up as soon as I stood up, it felt so nice to just stand and move because remember, I’m in the back of a Honda Accord with a gigantic toddler car seat next to me Also, my toddler was with my parents in New York. He was not in the car. But it was a huge, empty car seat, so I really did not have a luxurious amount of room. Also, mentioning the position that I was in– so I was behind the driver's side. I had my right leg on the floor. My left leg up on the seat. I don’t know how you would describe the position, and then I had my left arm holding the dry cleaning bar. So I was holding myself up and I was consciously thinking, “Get off your tailbone. Get off your tailbone. Let your pelvis open. You need flexibility here. Don’t sit on anything.” So I was up on my side, my right hip whole time. At some point, my thinking brain was turning on and I was like, “Okay, why don’t you lean over the car seat, and get on all fours, and lean your arms over the car seat so your hips can really open up,” but every time I tried to move it all, I just couldn’t. It was too much. It was too intense. I was basically just frozen and stuck in that position the entire time. So around 5:15, I get up out of the car. I’m moving around. I put my wrist on the top of the car and I had to remember that being a very nice moment because the car was cold. I was sweating and disgusting and it felt so nice to have the cool car on my wrists. I will also say at that point, I took off my adult diaper just instinctually. I think I just needed to take it off and I was pushing. This is, I don’t know, like 5:20-5:30, something in there. I felt myself pushing and I felt like, “Oh my gosh. Why are you pushing if you are in early labor? And even if it is not early labor, there is no way you are at a 10.” So I just thought, “No Emily. You cannot push. Stop pushing.” I just thought that maybe it was so intense that my body was just tightening up because it was so much and I just need to relaxed. I felt like the answer was just to relax and don’t push. Relax. Breathe through it, so I was just relaxing my jaw by doing lip trills and low moans as I’m trying to push and just relax through it.Which again, in hindsight, just opened me up more. I was concerned about whether I was going to be pushing too early and be swollen. I was thinking like, “Oh my gosh. I’m going to get to the hospital and I’m going to be so swollen,” because I would have been pushing before 10 centimeters, and they were going to try to give me Benadryl, and I was going to be going backward in dilation and I was like, “Okay. I have to not push. Don’t push. Don’t push.” But of course, my body was just pushing for me at that point. I had no control over pushing or not pushing or anything. All I was doing was breathing and in heavy denial at that point. My husband didn’t realize that I was pushing either. So that point, I willed myself to get back into the backseat because I thought like, “Okay. Things are really ramping up in this early labor. I have to get back to my house and/or the hospital with my midwives, and my support team, and my doula, and everyone. Also for reference, we did call the midwives at some point. I think it was around when we got back in the car. I didn’t want to call in the middle of the night. I didn’t want to wake them up. I just figured, “Okay. We will call them when we are close to Connecticut. When we are close to the hospital, we will give them a heads up and say, ‘Hey. We are an hour away’ or ‘Hey, we are 45 minutes away. Just want to let you know.’” That seemed very reasonable to me. It didn’t really make sense in my mind to call them in the middle of the night to be like, “Hi. We are four hours away.” I don’t really know what they would have told me.So again in hindsight, with my water broke, I should have called them and they probably would have said, “Hey, because you are so far away, you should leave now.” But at the time I didn’t wanna wake them up. So I just figured, “I’ve got this. It’s fine. I will call them when something is happening.”Meagan: When something is happening.Emily: Yes. So anyway, I am in the backseat and I am, in hindsight, definitely pushing and all of a sudden– this is a little before 5:45 a.m.. So I got into the car at 3:00 a.m. and this is a little less than two hours and 45 minutes after labor started and about an hour and 45 minutes in the car. I suddenly just say, “Pull over. Pull over.” My husband was like, “There’s nowhere to pull over. We are on the highway. There’s no shoulder. I will pull over at the next exit.” I reached down and I said, “There is a head,” because I felt the top of a baby's head. He was like, “Okay.” So he just immediately pulled over, or he was trying to pull over, and then a couple of seconds later, her entire body just shot out of me. I caught her and I was holding her onto my chest. I just said, “There is a baby!” My husband looked in the rearview mirror and I am just holding this squishy, little baby. It just happened incredibly fast. It went from, “Pull over,” “There is a head,” “There is a baby,” in less than a minute. I mean really, my body was pushing for me. I was not doing anything.Meagan: True fetal ejection.Emily: Yes. I knew that it was a thing, so it was really cool to feel it and to get into it. Also, I am laboring at night so it was a dark environment. I was by myself. I felt as comfortable as you can in a car and I was watching the sunrise, so that was kind of nice. Just to jump back, one of the things when I was saying I was going to throw myself into traffic, not to scare anyone, it’s not that bad. It’s very doable. But at the time, I had that momentary transition, looking back, of that “I can’t do it” moment, but I did rally pretty quickly until like, “No. You have to. You don’t have a choice.” I do remember looking at the GPS on the screen because where I was leaning over, I could see the screen. It said I had two more hours or some ridiculous number like that and I remember thinking, “No. No, no, no. I can’t. There cannot be two more hours of this. I absolutely cannot do this for two more hours. There’s no way.” And then I thought, “Okay.” Again denial, I was like, “I’m going to pretend like I didn’t see that,” and then I just looked out the window and watched the sunrise. I was like, “That GPS doesn’t exist.” I kind of had my eyes like those magic eye books. I don’t know their name. Do you know what I’m talking about?Meagan: Yeah I do, but I don’t remember the name of them either. Like iSpy but not.Emily: Yeah. Not iSpy, but the magnifying glass where you put—Meagan: Yeah, not iSpy but that is coming to my mind.Emily: You put your nose to the page, and you slowly move it, and your eyes kind of fuzz, and then you see a different image? I was doing that with my eyeballs with the screen. I was like, “Nope. Can’t see that screen two hours ahead.” So anyway, I caught my daughter and eventually my husband pulled over. I mean, I did it but it was crazy. I remember thinking, “Oh my god. What even happened?” I don’t even know what I was thinking. It was like, “What even just happened? That was insane.” So I think we called 911 because after the fact with the birth story, Inside Edition was one of the news outlets that reached out. They were able to obtain the 911 audio, so we actually have that.Meagan: That’s awesome.Emily: I am happy to send it your way. But we have the 911 audio and you just hear me in the background saying, “Hi. Hi baby. Hi baby. Can you cry for me? Can you cry? Hi,” and I am trying to get her to cry because she wasn’t. So I am rubbing her back and I somehow had the wherewithal to grab a towel from the hotel room and wrap her. She was skin-to-skin with me but I put a towel over her over us. I am rubbing her and trying to get her to cry, and it probably took a minute or two minutes for her to cry. She was breathing. Her body was moving. I could see her lungs expanding, but it took a little while for her to cry.One of the things that happened that I didn’t– I am careful with where I share this because the birth was so wonderful and I have such fond, wonderful memories of it so I don’t want to add any kind of fear into the story. However, I do want to be authentic and truthful about it so one thing that actually did happen was when she was born– and I don’t know when this happened in the process– but I am holding her and I look to see the gender of the baby. At some point, I looked and I said that it was a girl, but who cares? Because at that point it was, “What even just happened?” But I looked down and the umbilical cord had snapped. So on her, there were maybe three inches and then the rest of the umbilical cord was somewhere inside of me.Meagan: Attached to the placenta still?Emily: Yes.Meagan: Okay, yeah. But still. It still snapped and was not clamped.Emily: Not clamped but it wasn’t bleeding.Meagan: Bleeding out, yeah.Emily: It instantly clotted on both sides so I wasn’t hemorrhaging at all. That was something I was checking. I looked down. “Am I losing blood? Am I good?” And I actually didn’t. I barely lost any blood.Meagan: Great. That’s good.Emily: So I was fine. She was breathing. I’m not a doctor, but she was breathing. She was pinking up. She started crying. The umbilical cord wasn’t bleeding but that is– I was a little in shock but looking back, that isn’t ideal for sure. And unfortunately, the 911 operator, although very sweet, had no idea what to say or do which is what I felt at the moment but then afterward I was like, “I don’t know. Maybe I was just out of it,” but then now that I have the 911 audio, I was listening back and I had no idea what was happening. He was literally like, “Oh. Okay. Well, I guess you already had the baby so congratulations. I guess you did that part. Let me get my sheet. Why does my sheet say to do? Okay. Can you clamp the cord?” And I am like, “The cord snapped.” He was like, “Okay. I don’t know.” You just hear me saying, “Is someone coming? Is someone coming to get us?” I know. It was wild. And basically a minute into that incompetent conversation, my husband was like, “Okay. We’re going to call our midwives now.” He was like, “Okay. Congratulations. Help is on the way.” Because we’re not gonna hang out on the phone with someone who literally has no idea what he was talking about, although very sweet.Meagan: Yeah. Yeah.Emily: So we called the midwives but someone was going to call us back. I don’t know. I think it went to an answering service and I’m not really sure what happened there, but we called our doula and she was like, “Okay. Crank up the heat. Get the blanket. Warm her up.” You know, giving us all these directions. I think we gave her a heart attack for sure because we talked to her twenty minutes before then and we were like, “Maybe we will meet at the house and eat a meal together.” And then we were like, “Hi. The baby is born.” And she was like, “What? What is happening?” So yeah. That is basically the story but she is all good. My daughter is all good. She was fine. I was fine.Meagan: You were okay?Emily: Yep. I was doing great. She breastfed like a champ. We rode in the ambulance together and she was on my chest the whole time. Me and the ambulance workers– I was taking selfies with them and they were taking videos for me. I birthed my placenta in the ambulance and I have a video of that. One of the female EMS workers was like, “Yay!” So it was really chill. They wanted to give me an IV in the ambulance and I said, “Why? I am done.” They were like, “Well, the hospital wants it.”Meagan: Yeah.Emily: I just said, “Yeah.” I declined that part and they were like, “Okay.” So I didn’t get one. We just went to the hospital and I left 24 hours later and went home.Meagan: Oh my gosh. That’s amazing. What a rush. Totally not expected and like you said, not out of the ordinary in a lot of things. You were like, “Yeah I’m taking my time,” and then boom bang bam, you have a baby. That is so awesome and so exciting. So exciting. I can’t imagine being in that position but I am sure it would be quite the whirlwind.Emily: Yeah, and then looking back, I think it was about 15 minutes of pushing maybe?Meagan: Wow, yikes.Emily: Her whole body flew out and actually surprisingly, I didn’t tear at all.Meagan: That’s awesome. So awesome. Well, congratulations again. I know everyone has probably said, “Congratulations.”Emily: Thank you.Meagan: That’s so awesome. So awesome to have you on the podcast and excited for the world to continue to hear your story.Emily: Thank you. I’m super passionate about birth and all of that stuff. So if anyone ever wants to reach out to me, they are more than welcome to.ClosingInterested in sharing your VBAC story on the podcast? Submit your story at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Today on the podcast we have one of Meagan’s local doula clients, Aubree. Aubree’s unexpected HBAC story is one of overcoming fears and digging deep when birth moves much faster than planned!We also discuss the risks and benefits surrounding home birth. Julie mentions criteria you can use to help you decide if HBAC is right for you. However and wherever you choose to birth, our mission is to help you feel empowered, peaceful, and safe in that choice. Additional linksThe VBAC Link Blog: HBACMamasteFitJulie’s Fear Release VideoHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Happy Wednesday, everybody. It is Julie and Meagan and we are so excited for you to hear this story today. We have our friend, Aubree, on and she has got a really cool story to share. And kind of a little side note or a little teaser, I was actually one of her doulas. It was me and my partner, Melinda, and I sadly didn’t get to make it to the birth. Melinda went, but I seriously can’t even believe how awesome this story is. I’m actually excited to hear her share it. We actually had scheduled to go to lunch and hear her story, and we never got to have that happen. So I’m so excited today to hear along with you guys her version of the story. As usual, we have a Review of the Week and our amazing Julie is going to share that with you before we dive right in. Review of the WeekJulie: Hello, I am so excited to hear this story too. Meagan was just telling me a titch about it before we started recording and it is always fun to have somebody local share their story with us. I do have a Review of the Week. This is from Apple Podcasts and it is from libbywilger. The title is “My Safe Space”. That makes me really happy– “My Safe Space.”Meagan: And I love her name, Libby. Julie: Libby. I know, that’s cute. Okay, so she says, “I have been listening to The VBAC Link from the very beginning and it has carried me through my own VBAC journey (and beyond)! I had an emergency C-section with my first baby in 2017 and knew immediately I wanted to pursue a VBAC with future pregnancies. I tried listening to birth stories on other podcasts, but initially, it was too difficult for me to hear from first-time moms whose stories ended with peaceful, unmedicated, vaginal births. The VBAC Link became my safe space to hear from women who had been through what I had and had come out empowered, triumphant, and healed, even if they weren’t able to have a VBAC. “This podcast helped me to heal emotionally from my first birth experience and to surround myself with the research, support, and POSITIVITY that I needed to prepare for my next birth. These stories allowed me to believe in birth again, and they carried me through my beautiful, healing VBAC during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic in April 2020. “Julie, Meagan, and all the women of strength who bravely share their stories are changing the world with this podcast. Thank you for giving so many mamas the gift of education, empowerment, and JOY while they bring their babies Earthside. God bless!”Meagan: Aww, that gave me the chills. Julie: I know, me too. Meagan: That is amazing. I love it so much. Thank you so much for sharing your review, Libby. Julie: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. I love it when people are with us from the beginning. We’ve been doing this for four years now. Meagan: I know. So crazy. Julie: It’s been a really long time and really fun to see people come around full circle. I was at our local ICAN meeting last night. They are starting up ICAN meetings again here. Meagan: Oh yay! That’s awesome.Julie: Yeah. So if you’re in Utah, look up ICAN of Utah County. There are meetings on the 3rd Monday of every month in Lehi and I will probably come to every single one of them because I just– you know me. I love talking about birth and VBAC and everything. It was fun because a lot of the people there– it’s been a while since we’ve had ICAN meetings– and everybody there knew who I was. It was kind of strange walking into a room where everyone knows you but you don’t know them. It was just a little strange. I don’t know. It’s been a while since we’ve been in front of real-life people instead of talking on Zoom. So it was just fun to be able to see and connect with people. I’m excited to hear the stories of when people found The VBAC Link. There are people who have found us at the beginning and they had their C-sections, then their VBACs, and VBAC after two C-sections. There was a mom there last night who is preparing for a VBAC after three C-sections and I love that VBAC after three C-sections is becoming more common. We are hearing more stories in our community and more on our podcast. I think it’s incredible. Aubree’s StoryMeagan: Okay, Ms. Aubree. We are so, so excited to hear your story. We are so grateful that you’re here with us today. We are going to turn the time over to you to share this beautiful birth story. Aubree: Oh, yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Meagan: Absolutely. Aubree: I actually was going to say that I’ve almost been with you since the beginning. My daughter is three and a half. She’s my C-section and that’s how this all got started. Meagan: Mhmm, that’s awesome. We really do. We get emails all the time where it’s like, “Oh, I’ve been with you from the very beginning,” and we are like, “Thank you. Thank you for sticking with us this whole time.”Aubree: I love it. Thank you for allowing me to share my story. I’m super pumped, actually. Meagan: Absolutely. Aubree: I’ll just start with my daughter’s birth first. She’s the C-section one. Right off the bat, I went and actually had an IUI which is intrauterine insemination. It worked on the first round. I’m infertile, so that’s why we had to see a fertility specialist but it worked and I had a pretty normal pregnancy with her. Nothing out of the blue or anything. I did find out, though, about two weeks before birth that my doctor told me, “Oh, I’m going to be going out of town.” That was a big surprise to me.Meagan: Shocker, yeah. Aubree: I had never even thought of that being a possibility, so I just assumed. She had told me, “Everybody there that will be there will be awesome. You don’t need to worry.” I did not think about it. Fast forward– it actually gets to two days after 40 weeks, so 40+2, and that’s when my contractions started. I was visiting the gravesite of my father and it was really special that my contractions started while I was visiting him.It was exciting because I had taken a HypnoBirthing class. I had done a lot of work– what I thought work was– mentally to prepare for it, and so it just felt super exciting at first. The whole car ride back– it was about an hour away and every five minutes, or not five minutes at first. It was about every 7-10 minutes apart. We got to our apartment. I decided to do a little bath and that’s when it slowed down and stopped, my labor. I just got bummed. I was super bummed. I was like, “You have got to be kidding me. I have been waiting 40 weeks for this.” So I hopped out of the bath.  I shouldn’t have. I should have rested. But I hopped out of the bath and I was like, “Let’s get this ramped up again.” So I just started cleaning the apartment, vacuuming, everything like that, and lo and behold, my contractions started right up again. They slowly got closer and closer together. Even though I was working on breathing through them, I was managing them so well. About an hour later, I was like, “These are clockwork. Five minutes apart and they are lasting,” I can’t even remember, but they seemed textbook and I was like, “Let’s go to the hospital.”I didn’t want to wait for them to get even closer. It started to get to the point where I was like, “I’m needing a little bit of help, too.” So we get to the hospital and that’s when my anxiety kicked in. It felt really real. We got up to the tower or whatever where we get checked in and the nurse was like, “Why are you here?” I’m like, “Can you not tell? I’m in labor.” I had to do that little bit even though I had pre-done everything. She still asked me a few questions. We finally got our way back and they said, “Okay, we’ll check you in triage.” I was like, “Joke’s on them because I’m five minutes apart and I’m going to be super far along.” But come to find out, I was only 3 centimeters. They said, “Well, we’ll keep you for an hour and then we’ll see,” but an hour later, still no progress which makes sense, but the contractions were just so intense for me. I was asking, I’m like, “Can you do something for me? I need something to help with this” and I had forgotten everything, literally, from my HypnoBirthing class. I just remember being in so much fear. So finally, I think they did administer– I can’t even remember what it was– a little shot to my bum. It kind of took the edge off, but not really. Meagan: Maybe morphine?Aubree: Yeah. Meagan: Was allotted or something? Sometimes in that earlier stage, if it’s really intense, they’ll give you a little morphine shot in the bum while you are awake just to take it away a little bit. Aubree: Yeah, that’s probably it then. They said, “We’ll allow you that, but since you are not admitted, we can’t even start an epidural or anything.” I was like, “Why isn’t this on-call doctor allowing me to be admitted?” Because they kept saying, “Well, the on-call doctor thinks this,” and “The on-call doctor thinks that.” Already, I’m not liking this on-call doctor very much. And so they said, “We are going to come back in one more hour. I manage through that one hour. I think I progressed to a four. Because I had made some progress, they said, “Okay, we’ll go ahead and admit you now.” That’s when my mom had gotten to the hospital. My husband was with me in the room and I still was just very fearful. I couldn’t find a position that was comfortable for me. And so I basically asked for the epidural right as I got to my room. I just was like, “I need rest.” Meagan: And relief. Aubree: And relief, yeah. I call him a nice, old anesthesiologist because he was pretty old. He actually helped me relax. He administered it and it was actually smooth sailing from there but my body– even though I hated not feeling my legs, I had that relaxation. By I think, so sorry. I should have said. I checked in at about 8:00 p.m. and by 5:00 or 6:00 in the morning, they told me, “You are 10. You are complete.” It actually helped me relax so much that it allowed me to dilate which was awesome. They said, “For an hour, we are going to let you rest and descend.” I had no idea what that meant. I was like, “Okay.” And then around 6:00 or 7:00, we started practice pushing. I think I knew from the beginning, “That is a lie. This is not practice. They really want me to start pushing.” It was the coached pushing because they had me push, push, push for ten whole counts. I had to hold my breath and it just was awful. I had heard and I had told them. I had my whole birth plan and I said, “I prefer not to have coached pushing,” but I don’t think anyone cared too much to look at it. I definitely didn’t remind them because I was just in the moment. So I am in the middle of quite a few practice pushes and this is the first time I saw the face of my on-call doctor. He comes into the room and he goes, “Push, push, push, push, push, push, push, push!” He sounded like a barking football coach.Meagan: I was going to say, “What are we doing?”Aubree: I am like, “What are we doing?”Meagan: Are we sprinting up a hill right now?Aubree: So shocked. My husband said he wanted to (inaudible), but he was trying to help me, so I just dealt with it. I dealt with all of the coaching. I did not like the coached pushing. In fact, I was holding my breath and they were like, “Oh, she needs more oxygen. Let’s put an oxygen mask on her.” That made it even worse. I just felt claustrophobic with that on, and then they would try to rotate me. They were like, “Let’s rotate her to her other side,” because I had been on my left. Every time they tried to rotate me, they were like, “We lost baby’s heartbeat,” or it had deceled, and so I couldn’t move. I had to stay on my left side. I had to keep the oxygen mask on and it just did not feel good. In fact, I knew I was pushing because I am one of those people that pooped on the table. It was like, “Come on. You know I am working!” It was so embarrassing.Meagan: Listen, poop is a good sign. It means you are doing things really well.Aubree: Okay good. I pushed for an hour and a half and that’s when the doctor said, “Okay. I need to probably give you the C-section talk,” because she had not descended. She engaged but she had not decided one bit, not even with pushing. There was nothing from her. He said, “You look exhausted. I actually see a little bit of blood in your urine output and we can’t get you to move on the other side for your baby's heart rate.” He was like, “I could let you go for another hour and a half,” but he said, “I think the best option for you is just to have a C-section because this will just get even more exhausting.I consented honestly because well, I took a minute with my husband. We talked about it because I did not want a C-section although I had no idea what it entailed anyway. We decided it was the best for the baby and for myself, and we wanted to go through with it. It did go really well. The C-section went fine. I just did not like that right after the procedure, I was so shaky. Literally, so much to the point I couldn’t even hold her when they finally brought her back from the NICU for her breathing. I couldn’t even hold her. I was violently shaking.Man, I don’t want to get emotional, but that was the hardest part. I couldn’t even bond with her. I was able to still learn and work through everything and enjoy her afterward. I just feel like I had a rough start, especially being a first-time parent, and especially because two weeks later, we came to find out she had colic. I kept blaming the C-section for her colic because I was like, “She never got the microbiomes from my vaginal canal.” I just knew at the end of all of that and the rough recovery of not being able to lift much or walk around as easily at first. My friend is who introduced me to you guys. That’s when I just knew things had to be different the next time. So yeah. That’s my C-section story.Meagan: Yeah, thank you.Aubree: Yeah. My son’s story is completely still baffling to me because I did not expect it. We had to go back to the fertility center. He took five or six rounds of intrauterine insemination and we were actually close to them saying, “Hey. You probably need to go to IVF after this.” But anyway, we were so lucky and blessed to get him in the fifth round. We had a pretty good pregnancy with him. The only thing that I had fear about was the birth and choosing the right care team.And so at first, I knew for sure, I think I contacted Meagan to be my doula right out of the gate. I think I was only five weeks along.Meagan: Yeah, early.Aubree: Early, yeah. I wanted to secure you and I wanted to secure my provider. I initially went to a hospital here with a midwife because I wanted things a little bit more natural, but when I went to my first meeting with her– I had given her my whole story and she had said, “I don’t see a reason to not let you try, but I do want you to consider having an induction at 39 weeks and I would like to monitor you as we get closer.” Things didn’t sound VBAC-friendly. It just sounded tolerant and I got that feeling of, “Is this who I really want?” because I don’t do well having to fight for myself during labor. I don’t want to have that as an additional thing to worry about.I had been keeping this other clinic in the back of my mind and I went and did a couple of interviews with the midwives at a freestanding birth center. They are an amazing team. The thing that made me feel so safe with her was that she said, “The odds are in your favor if you come to be with us.” That sounded really awesome, but I also decided to do one other thing which was that I wanted to go physically stand out in front of each place to see if I could get a feeling. You know, like, “Does this feel right for me?” I stood out in front of the hospital and then I stood out in front of the birth center and I did not feel pulled to either one. I was super shocked. I kind of figured out why later because he didn’t get delivered at either. Yeah. I will keep telling my story, but I think that’s the reason why my prayers went unanswered because he did not decide to come to either place. I did not make it. I would not have made it. So I decided, “Okay.” Around 20 weeks, you know when you have your anatomy scan, we found out he was not only breech, but that my placenta was anterior and it was also covering my C-section scar at that point. And so they said, “Okay.” This is with the birth center because I had decided to go with them. They said, “We are just going to need to keep an eye on that because we can’t have your placenta covering your C-section scar or sticking right there. It needs to move up and away from it,” as well as, breech, right? I did not want to deal with a breech baby. And so I did quite a few things and this is actually something I pulled from your guys’ previous podcast which is why they are so amazing. A previous person had said she started talking to her baby throughout the pregnancy and how she created a bond with them, so I was like, “I need to start talking to him.” That’s when I started having conversations. I was like, “Hey, honey. You are breech. We need you to turn.” I started to keep him informed along the way, even learning things from MamasteFit, or Gina. I kept telling him at night. I kept saying, “Okay. Remember when it is birth day, you have to tuck your chin in. You have to have the pointiest part of your head face down.”Meagan: Those things work.Aubree: They do. They just do. It did work. I had to have another scan later because we had to check both his position and my placenta at around 30 or 35 weeks. I can’t remember, but he did end up flipping. So I went and saw a chiropractor because I wanted to do everything to get him to not be breech. I went and saw a chiropractor here. I did the Spinning Babies Daily Essentials most days. Not every day, but I did that. I had the red raspberry leaf tea and dates. I just wanted to do all of the things I could to make this possible for myself. About one week before, I actually went into labor. My contractions started in the car when we were on our way back from the lantern festival. I was so fearful. I actually was like, “It can’t happen now. It can’t happen now.” It was a week before my due date. Mentally, I wasn’t prepared. The fear came back. Feeling those contractions put me right back in the hospital remembering how scared I was and it was surprising to me because I just kept saying out loud, “I am not ready. I am not ready. You’ve got to stop. We need to wait.” They fizzled out by the time I got home. That whole week, I worked with, and even throughout my pregnancy, I worked with a life coach about my fears. I did your guys’ fear release from your course. I worked through it. I wrote out everything and then I burned it. I burned my piece of paper with my fears and it felt so good.Meagan: Mhmm. Listen, that is such an amazing thing too. In fact, Julie has a whole recording on our YouTube channel about that and how to do that. It’s so amazing. It really is.Aubree: Yeah, for sure. I think that’s partially what helped me get to be okay with whatever could happen because I was so afraid of things like shoulder dystocia, needing to transfer, all of those things, and so it just needed to get out, be said, and be burned because, at that point, I did all that I could and had to let the pieces play out.Meagan: Just let it go.Aubree: Yep. Just let it go. So a week later, it was still two days before my due date. I had been feeling kind of nauseous all day and I was like, “I feel off. Let’s go to bed early tonight.” And by early, I didn’t get to bed until 11:00, but it’s fine. I said, “Let’s go to bed early.” At 11:17, I kid you not. I was not even in bed for seven minutes when the first contraction came. It made me go, “Oh no. Did I dream that?” And then five minutes later, the next one came. I shot up out of bed and I said, “This is it!”Meagan: You can tell a difference.Aubree: Yes. I told him. I was like, “You have got to stay asleep.” I did not expect to be fast. Knowing my C-section and whatnot, I was like, “We have got at least six hours. I want to labor here as long as possible.” I went and started a shower bath for myself with Epsom salts. It was so great. I let myself go for a whole 45 minutes. I was alone and it was awesome until it kind of really started picking up. They were consistently already five minutes apart. The intensity just grew and grew with each one. So 45 minutes later, I was saying, “Justin, can you get out of bed? I am needing help squeezes. Help me.”That’s when he was like, “Okay. Let’s text the midwives,” so I sent a sweet text like, “I’ve been pushing for an hour. I’m just going to check–”Meagan: Contracting, yeah. Contracting—Aubree: Oh sorry, not pushing. Yeah, contracting for an hour and things are going well. I said, “Just keep us informed.” Seven minutes later though, I had a freak out because they just were ramping up so much. It’s not like the part you want to see in a movie because I was frantic. I was on my knees in my bedroom. I was like, “I can’t move. I can’t go anywhere.” I was like, “I picked the wrong thing. I need the epidural now. Get me somewhere. Fix it.”Meagan: It was a lot happening really fast.Aubree: Yeah. So my husband, bless him because he knew how much I wanted the VBAC and he said, “We need to remember what we want to try.” He was like, “What can you remember that you want me to help you with?” I said, “All I can think about is how funny it was that Gina said you can turn around on the toilet and sit there while you are in labor.” He was like, “Okay. Let’s go try it.” And so I made it there and it actually felt so good to sit there backward. For every contraction, I do not recommend this. But with every contraction, I pushed my forehead into the wall because it gave me some more counterpressure. He was giving counterpressure behind, but it gave me a counterpressure on my head too. It’s just what I did to cope. That’s when my husband was like, “We need to get places.” So that’s when– let’s see. I think it was at 12:21, he was like, “Call your mom.” I finally called you guys, my doulas. My mom quickly came and so did–Meagan: Melinda.Aubree: Melinda, yeah.Meagan: She was really close to you so I was like, “It sounds like it is going fast,” and so she was like, “I’m going.” “Yeah. You’ve got to get to her.”Aubree: I’m so appreciative of her because I don’t know if you would have made it, Meagan.Meagan: I don’t think I would have. I mean, I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t have because I’m not that far, but still, with the way things were going, I was far. Do you know?Aubree: All right. You were far enough, yeah. So my mom arrived and she was kind of like, “Wow. Don’t you guys have to get going?” Justin was like, “Yes. Yes, we know. We are trying to get everything.” I couldn’t really talk. I just was in the zone and saw my mom arrive. The doula arrived and then he called Adrienne. Adrienne heard me grunting over the phone and said, “Is she pushing?” Adrienne is my midwife and I didn’t think I was pushing. Honestly, I was just, it’s how I was like, “I am just getting through the contractions I am making a grunting noise.” I actually was like, “I think we can make it if you guys just let me go poo really quick.”She goes, “Oh no. I am on my way right now,” because she knew what that meant and I had no idea. I was like, “Guys. Jokes on you. I really have to just go to the bathroom real quick,” but she knew. Anyway, I’m so glad she was on her way. She called us not too long after saying, “Hey. If you need to, call the paramedics. This is going to be quick.” But she luckily made it. So she made it and when she got there, she set up a birthing stool right next to me in my bathroom. It took a little coaxing to get me off the toilet because I did not want to move, but we ended up getting on the birth stool. I was hugging Melinda because I needed to hunch over and hug her. Justin was giving me the counterpressure still on my hips. They just switched back-and-forth so neither one got burnt out, but at one point, and apparently this is when I realized, “Oh, I really am pushing.” At one point during this pushing, I felt my baby boy. I felt him use his legs to push up into my ribs and turn. I felt him twist and turn and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, he’s doing it! He’s doing what I told him to do.”Meagan: Exactly, yes.Aubree: I told him to get in the position. I was like, “You do whatever you need to, baby. It’s fine.” I felt him do that and at first– I should back up a little bit before I felt that. They put a mirror underneath me and at first, I couldn’t see anything. I was like, “What if he gets stuck? What if he gets stuck?” I couldn’t see anything, so I decided. I was like, “Stop looking in the mirror to check your progress and just let it happen.” After I felt that push, I was like, “Maybe I will check now.” I looked down and that’s when I could finally see his head crowning. I was like, “Oh my gosh. This is it. He really is doing it.” And oh man, the ring of fire. Yes. I felt that so much. In fact, every time I would contract, I would probably push a little too hard to push him out because it was just so intense. I should have eased up. I should have probably eased up on it, but it was just so intense. I can’t tell you how many pushes it took, but man. He made it out and he did that slippery slide out. My midwife prepped my husband to catch him and that was super shocking because he is not the type of person that was like, “I want to catch the baby or cut the cord or do any of this,” but he was just right there raw and real with me.We were just going through it doing what we had to do with what was presented. I don’t want to share the pictures with you, but if you saw the pictures of my face, I was just exhausted. I looked exhausted because it just was a wham, bam, boom. Two hours, I calculated it. It was two hours and 40 minutes from start to finish. It just blew me away. I did not think that it could be that quick.But I should say that after he was delivered, they got my bed all set up and put all of this protection down. After I delivered the placenta, I did hemorrhage, and so I was so grateful for my midwife. She administered IV fluids to me. She stitched me up right there. It was such a turnaround, immediate bonding experience that I missed out on so much with my daughter even though I was purely exhausted. I just was so much empowered. Yeah. I’m trying to think if there is anything else. The recovery– I should say this. One thing that I have learned going through the C-section and a vaginal, it wasn’t like one recovery was amazingly better than the other. They just each had their pros and cons. Right? I’m not saying, “Don’t have a C-section” or “Don’t have a home birth”, but they just have pros and cons. Everybody is different and it just is okay no matter how birth happens. That’s the biggest thing, especially through my life coach that was helping me, my friend. She is now a certified life coach. She is the best. I really think that is what helped me. She helped me push through all of the fears I had and that is what started me on my own journey. I actually signed up now. I want to become a doula and I am going to sign up to be a life coach as well because I want to handle not only the birth, but I want to help people through their mental– it’s such a mind game for birth. So that’s my story.Meagan: Yay. Absolutely. Oh, I love it so much. We have a client that we just recently were talking to and she had a fast birth the first time. Not fast-fast, but it was a 24-hour first-time birth. She is scared of that happening and it just being so fast. I’m like, “There are pros and cons to fast birth,” but when it’s fast, it’s usually really, really intense. Aubree: Yeah. Meagan: Yeah, and then you’re exhausted because it was so intense so fast, but yeah. As I said, there are pros and cons. I don’t even know if I would prefer fast and intense or if I would prefer what I had– 42-hour long labor. I”m like, “I don’t think I would prefer the 42-hour-long labor.”Julie: A nice, happy medium for me. Meagan: Yeah, just a nice, happy medium. Even just 8-10 hours. Aubree: Yeah. Meagan: Oh man, it can get intense. You are amazing. I remember Melinda was like, “Dude. That was insane!” I'm like, “Yeah. That sounded insane.” But so amazing, too. Like, so amazing. You are just incredible and you just let your body and your baby do exactly what they needed to. I also do. We love Gina. Everyone knows we love Gina so much. Julie: Gina is amazing. Meagan: Talking to your baby, connecting to your baby. There is something to be said about that. It’s so real. I feel like I did that so much with Webster and people probably would be like, “What? You’re just talking to your stomach?” I’m like, “Yeah.” And feeling your stomach and feeling him and saying like, “Okay, buddy. It’s you and me. Let’s do this. I’ll be okay with however you come, but this is how I would love for you to come.”Aubree: Exactly. Meagan: And that happened and it was amazing. I’m so, so grateful forever. I will be forever. But yeah, I just adore you and I am so grateful for you and your story. I am so excited that you are going the doula route and life coach route. There is so much goodness in life coaching as well. I think it’s going to benefit your mamas in the future. You’ve had it, but probably more than you even know, you are going to change people’s lives. Aubree: Aww, thanks. Yes, that’s my goal. There are so many friends that I even have that have had C-sections and at first, you don’t believe in yourself because you put a lot of stock in what a professional doctor will tell you. They told me, “You have such a small pelvis” and I’ve been told I’m small my whole life, so I didn’t really doubt them at first. I was like, “Well, they’re probably right. This is just another curse of the smallness.” But you know what? There’s also something to be said for educating yourself with other professionals as well and getting second opinions. Like you are saying, trust your body because when I learned, when I took your course, The VBAC Link course, and I followed people like Gina, you empower yourself with more knowledge. Even though it might not work out how you want, the fact that you empowered yourself to know no matter what way it goes, I think that’s what I hope any future client would want. “No matter how it goes, I’ll be okay.” Julie: Yeah, absolutely. Meagan: I love that. HBAC Statistics and CriteriaJulie: Should we talk a little bit about home birth? Meagan: Sure. Aubree: Yeah, sure. Julie: Have a little educational piece about home birth? First of all, if you are interested in our VBAC Prep Course for Parents, we also have a VBAC Doula Certification course, you can find all the information for those courses on our website at thevbaclink.com and we also have a blog about home birth after Cesarean. Surprise, surprise. I’m actually looking at it right now so I can go over some of the data because sometimes it will get all smushed around in my head. But it’s interesting because we have all of this data about home birth and its safety and things like that, but during the COVID pandemic in 2020 and 2021, preliminary numbers show an increase in out-of-hospital births because I feel like a lot of people were being forced to choose between having their supportive birth team or being really restricted with who they could and could not have in hospitals. So I love that home birth is an option in most parts of the country. You’re not going to face much of a kickback. There are a few Southern states that really restrict home birth options there and out in Nebraska. My best friend is getting ready to have a baby in Nebraska and home birth is just illegal there. It’s illegal for midwives to attend home births. They really don’t have any options out there in Nebraska, so you’ve got to work hard to create advocacy and change if you’re in that state.  In 2019, there was a peer-reviewed meta-analysis. A meta-analysis is a study that looks at a whole bunch of studies together so it’s really a more comprehensive view than an individual study would be. In 2019, there was a peer-reviewed meta-analysis of 20 years worth of studies on home birth that contained roughly 500,000 parents. So it is a pretty good size study. The study showed that low-risk parents who have a hospital birth have no difference in the overall birth outcomes than low-risk parents who have a planned home birth. Now, it’s really interesting because a lot of times, we’ll see and hear a lot, even now. Even last night at the ICAN meeting I was at, people were saying, “Oh my gosh. Home birth scares me. It scares me so much” or “Out of hospital birth scares me.” When you really look down at the difference in mortality rates and birth outcomes, they are very, very similar between birthing and home or birthing in a hospital. So there’s that if you are a statistic junkie like me. That is really interesting for you to see. But also, you have got to understand there are different risks associated. Sometimes your risk is a little bit different. Of course, if you’re having a home birth, we highly recommend that you have a midwife that has attended many, many home births and that has a solid transfer plan in case of an emergency or if you go the unassisted route that you have a solid transfer plan in case an emergency happens so that you can get to the hospital quickly if it is needed. But it’s really cool because this analysis also showed that birthing at home had fewer medical interventions and fewer Cesareans. Meagan, maybe you have a better idea of this than I do, but I know that in some of our birth centers around here and for our out-of-hospital midwives, their Cesarean rate is 5%. Like, 95% vaginal births. 95% successful home births. They go on to have hospital transfers and some clients will eventually need a Cesarean, but we have really, really high VBAC success rates at birth centers and with home birth midwives. Meagan, do you see that?Meagan: Yeah. I don’t know the exact percentage by any means because I am not good with numbers, but yeah. Yeah, for sure.Julie: It’s incredible. I love that. Home birth is not for everybody but there are four things, four criteria that you need in order for home birth to be a safe option for you. The first one is that you have to have a low-risk pregnancy. Here is a little plug-in: having a prior Cesarean does not automatically make you a high-risk pregnancy. I’m going to say that again. Having a prior Cesarean or going for a VBAC does not automatically make you high risk in your pregnancy. Now, you are at a higher risk for uterine rupture. That is true, but the risk is still fairly low. It doesn’t put you in a high-risk category. You don’t need to see maternal-fetal medicine. You don’t need to see a high-risk doctor or anything like that to manage your pregnancy.The second criterion is chosen, planned, and prepared for. A home birth that is planned and prepared for has better outcomes than accidental homebirths do. The care provider involved is qualified and experienced in homebirth so you don’t just have your next-door neighbor come and help deliver your baby. Unless your next-door neighbor happens to be an experienced homebirth midwife, then that’s okay.The fourth birth criterion is that your home birth plan includes a backup transfer plan in case of an emergency, as I talked about before. We know that it is relatively safe and most birth is a natural process but every once in a while, things happen where you are going to need more emergent care and you’re going to need an expert involved so having a backup transfer plan in place is important in that regard.We have a blog about it. It’s at thevbaclink.com/blog. You can just type HBAC in the search bar and it’s going to put up right there or you can just go to Google and I think it’s the second search result on Google. Meagan, what would you add?Meagan: I love it. Nothing, you’re just amazing. I guess I should say when I was preparing to have my VBAC after two C-sections, people told me that I was crazy and that I was going to kill my baby. Really, really awful things, and yeah. It can be scary, but if you prepare it can be just as great. I mean, Aubree was planning on going out of hospital but not at home, but she still had her team equipped and ready to help her and it was still really great. And so yeah. I just think that doing what you feel is best for you and being at the place where you feel safest is going to be the best place too. All right, well Ms. Aubrey, we are so grateful for you. Thank you so much again. We really love your story and are excited to share it with the world.Aubree: Yeah, thank you guys so much. Seriously, I’m so glad you guys have done The VBAC Link and keep doing it because it is so helpful for all of us out there.ClosingInterested in sharing your VBAC story on the podcast? Submit your story at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“I don’t have anybody that I can use as a resource or as a reference, but I know that I am not an anomaly. I also know that I am not asking for too much. I am not asking for a vaginal birth. I’m asking for support. I’m asking you to hear me. I’m asking you to give me time. I’m asking you to let my body do the work. Let my body do the work instead of you dictating what you think my body should do.”Mabel is a trailblazer. She walked the lonely road of fighting for her vaginal birth after a myomectomy with very limited resources, support, and anecdotal evidence. Mabel knew her risks. All she wanted from a provider was true support and the chance to try. This episode is a must-listen. Sit back and soak in all of the incredible advice Mabel offers to both VBAC and VBAM hopeful women. We were honored to have such a powerful woman of strength on our podcast today!Additional linksMabel’s Website: Within Her Birth ServicesSpecial Scars WebsiteThe VBAC Link CommunityHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Hello, how are you guys? This is The VBAC Link podcast and we are with you today with our friend, Mabel. We are so excited to hear her stories today. We encourage you to pause and listen up because this is going to be an amazing one. She is from northern Virginia and did you say DMC? Is that what you called it?Julie: Washington DC.Mabel: DMV.Meagan: DMZ. Julie: Everybody’s confused. Mabel: Yeah. I’m from Northern Virginia. In the city and state, I’m from Bristow, Virginia, but it is technically part of northern Virginia. We call it the DMV– DC, Maryland, Virginia.Meagan: DMV like where you go get your license.Julie: Oh my gosh.Meagan: Okay, the DMV area. So if you are in her area, this is definitely one to listen to. But of course, we have a Review of the Week, so I’m going to turn the time over to cute Julie, and then we will dive into this story.Review of the WeekJulie: Okay. You know I can’t just go right into the review. I have to say something. That’s really funny that you said “cute Julie”. That’s really funny because I have a longtime friend from when we were in the military. We hardly ever see each other but when we do, she is one of those friends that you just pick up right where you left off. It doesn’t matter if it has been a year since we talked to each other. Her name is Kelly and I would always call her “cute Kelly”. It’s “cute Kelly” and then she started calling me “cute Julie” and I am like, “Nobody calls me ‘cute Julie’ except for her.”Meagan: Oh that’s funny.Julie: So when you said “cute Julie”, I was like, “Aww. I miss my friend. I need to go call her after this.” Oh my gosh. Anyways, yes. Mabel from DMV, we are so excited to hear your story, but yes. I am going to read a review. OK. I really actually like this review. I read it on a previous podcast, but then I had forgotten to record that podcast and we had to get back on and start over, and I had to pick a shorter review. But I really like this one and I want to tell you why afterward. This is from Informed Mama on Apple Podcasts and she says, “I love listening to the inspirational stories of women of strength trusting their bodies and doing what they were created to do. As a mama who has had a C-section, it’s incredibly encouraging to hear that my feelings about my child’s birth are valid and also exciting to me that this could be our story someday, too.“With this in mind, as a labor and delivery nurse, it hurts my heart to hear of women not consenting to interventions and of the overall mistrust of birth in a hospital setting. I do want to encourage all women that L&D nurses and OBGYNs are not evil, and we are not pushing for every woman to give birth in the OR. There are times when interventions are necessary for the safety of you and your child. We do have good intentions for you and your baby, and the safety of both of you is our utmost priority.“If you are a pregnant woman listening to this podcast and find yourself anxious about your upcoming birth, please remember that the majority of us are honored to be there for this special day for you and want to honor your birth preferences as best we can. Please keep focusing on how strong you are, trust the process, and surround yourself with a birth team that will advocate for you!”I love that review because first of all, I love it when we have OBs, hospital midwives, and labor and delivery nurses listening to our podcast and following along with The VBAC Link because I feel like change has to come from all sides in order for there to be an improvement in maternal health, our outcomes, and the birth privileges and birth rights that we all want. We all want to improve birth in the United States especially, but all over the world so I love that perspective.My three VBACs were at home so just keep in mind my perspective, but I think it is really easy, sometimes, for us to get really defensive with the hospital systems and interventions. Yes obviously, Cesareans are heavily overused. That’s why we are here. We know that interventions are also overused and sometimes the hospital system feels like it is created to sabotage the birth process a little bit, but I like this reminder because it helps us remember that most people in the hospital system really do want to be there. They really do want to help you and want to see you have the safest and best birth that you possibly can.I do want to add a little caveat in there that I know that there are some hospital staff, nurses, OBGYNs, and maybe even hospital midwives that do operate in a poor manner and can seem like they don’t have your best care at heart. I just think it’s important to remember that most of the time, people are willing to be accommodating, helpful, and supportive. I also don’t want to just discredit anybody that has had a traumatic birth experience. We are how many episodes in? I think 189 or something? We certainly have heard quite a few of those stories too. But I have found that especially being a doula here, most people are willing to accommodate and be supportive of your birth preferences as long as you make them known and as long as it is within their scope of practice as well. Anyways, I’ve been talking for a long time. Meagan, what would you add or should we just kick it off?Meagan: No, yeah. I think that is great.Mabel’s StoryMeagan: I am just so ready to dive into this story. So Mabel, without further ado, we welcome you to The VBAC Link to share your story. Mabel: Thank you. Thank you, ladies. I thought that review was a very helpful reminder, so it was nice to hear that. I will start by saying that a lot of my story is actually a lot of the things that happened before I even got pregnant, so I think the bulk of this story might weigh heavily on my pregnancy and trying to conceive journey which therefore helped me be successful with having a vaginal birth after my myomectomy. I don’t know if you know much about fibroids and myomectomies or if that is something that you have heard of or have encountered with clients or other VBAC stories.Meagan: Especially fibroids specifically, we get messages about fibroids all the time like, “Hey, do you have any stories with people that have fibroids and had a VBAC?” or “Hey, do you know my risks?” I don’t know a ton, so I am excited to learn more. Mabel: Awesome. So I’ll start with that. A fibroid is a benign uterine growth that occurs in the uterus. They are benign so they’re not cancerous, but they can propose a lot of issues for women. Women can experience pelvic pain and excessive bleeding during their menstrual cycle. They may even appear pregnant because the mass is so big and it is projecting out of her uterus, causing her belly to swell.Fibroids are actually a very common occurrence for women not just in the US but in the world. I think the statistics say that about 70% of women will experience fibroids at one point or another in their life. The statistic is quite disproportionate to black women. Black women have a higher risk of getting fibroids. I think the statistic says 8 out of 10 black women have fibroids whether they are symptomatic or not. So no matter your racial background, fibroids are very much a part of the female experience I have come to find out. Depending on where you are in life, you may decide to do something about them or not. In fact, most women don’t realize that they have a fibroid until they become pregnant or they are trying to become pregnant because one of the best ways to identify fibroids is through ultrasound. I have had friends and clients who have said, “I didn’t know I had fibroids until my 6-week confirmation pregnancy appointment.”What happened to me was that actually, I was trying to conceive. I got married at 26. We waited a year before we were serious about trying and then the year we were trying to conceive, nothing was happening. Through a series of tests, I found out that I had fibroids. I had multiple fibroids. It was a wake-up call because, for years, I had been experiencing extremely heavy periods. I wasn’t the girl who got cramps, but I was the girl who literally hemorrhaged every month. And so I was very grateful to find out that I had the fibroids because I had an answer to the issues that I was facing. After some time, I decided that I was going to surgically remove them. Granted, every woman who has fibroids may treat them differently, but one of the more common ways of dealing with fibroids is to do surgery, which is called a myomectomy. Another way that someone may deal with fibroids is to do a hysterectomy, but most women who opt for a myomectomy are trying to preserve their fertility. That’s what I wanted to do, obviously. I was still young and was still hoping to get pregnant. Thankfully, I was a pretty good candidate for a laparoscopic myomectomy. I don’t want to get into the weeds but there are different types of myomectomies that you can do. The laparoscopic myomectomy is known to be minimally invasive whereas others such as an abdominal myomectomy are where they cut your uterus very much like a C-section and they remove the fibroids. Instead of removing a baby, they are removing the fibroid. Thankfully, I didn’t have to have such an extensive surgery as the abdominal myomectomy. Meagan: That’s actually what my tax lady just had– that exact surgery. Mabel: Really? Yeah. Yeah. Meagan: Uh-huh. Mabel: Yeah. Julie: Our tax lady, thank you very much. Meagan: Sorry, yes. Our tax lady. Yes. And you know, she is worried that she will never be able to have a vaginal birth because the doctor said, “Just to let you know if you do get pregnant in the future, it’s C-sections from here on out.”Mabel: That is very, very and I wouldn’t even say very common. That is the feedback that every woman who goes through a myomectomy will receive. It doesn’t matter how invasive her procedure was. It doesn’t matter how many fibroids they removed. It doesn’t matter how well her recovery was. Usually for a woman who goes through a myomectomy, if she ends up getting pregnant thereafter, she will be counseled to have a C-section at 37 weeks. The concern for that is uterine rupture, very much like a C-section. Their concern is that because we have gone into your uterus and we have tampered with it more or less if you are doing an abdominal myomectomy, that’s one big incision. If you are doing a laparoscopic myomectomy like mine, there are these tiny little cuts into the uterus. They cut into the uterus and they take pieces of the fibroid out bit by bit. There are different ways to remove fibroids; however, it is a uterine procedure and every woman is different. Every woman’s experience is different. Some women have multiple fibroids. Some women have one. Some women have fibroids inside the uterine cavities. Some women have it within the wall or outside the wall. It really varies. And so I think a blanket response to avoid uterine rupture is to just go on and have a planned C-section at 37 weeks. Like I said, I was happy I was getting the laparoscopic myomectomy because when I was doing my research beforehand, all the research that I found said that women who had a laparoscopic myomectomy were good candidates for having a vaginal birth thereafter if they were treated as if they were a VBAC patient. In my head at that time, I was like, “Well, this is great. I am going to have this surgery and I am going to have my vaginal birth.” But when I went to one of my post-op appointments to talk about the procedure, my surgeon at the time told me that I had to have a C-section at 37 weeks. Something told me not to push it with her because I felt that, “Okay. She is my surgeon who did the surgery. She doesn’t necessarily have to be the OB that delivers my babies.”So when she told me, I just took it in but in the back of my mind I thought, “I have a lot of work to do.” That was in the sense of finding a supportive provider. Mind you, I was not pregnant at this time, but I knew that when the time came for me to be pregnant, I wanted someone who was confident and supportive of me having this type of delivery. Also at that time, because I had gone through so much with the fibroids, I was young and I realized that I didn’t know much about women’s health. I didn’t know much about pregnancy and childbirth. I didn’t know anything outside of what I was experiencing currently, so I took it upon myself to learn everything that I could. I actually trained as a doula at that time because everything I was learning was fascinating to me, and then also I realized that what I was going through was quite unique and it was not going to be easy. I felt that I had to be confident with my understanding of birth and pregnancy so that I could advocate for myself better. Also at that time, I felt that because nobody that I knew and nothing on the internet pointed me to anybody else who had a vaginal birth after a myomectomy, I just took it upon myself to be the one. So I just was like, “Okay. If ever I get pregnant and I have a vaginal birth, I am going to shout it from the mountain tops and tell everybody what I did, how I did it–”Julie: Yeah!Mabel: Yeah, so if anyone is listening to this and they have heard my story on another birth podcast, it’s not that I’m boasting, it’s that I believe that education and anecdotal evidence is just as valuable as evidence-based information. And so I learned about VBAC. I actually started learning about childbirth by researching VBAC because I looked at myself as pretty much a VBAC patient or individual. I wasn’t pregnant, but I just felt that when the time came, I had to look at myself like a VBAC person. I read a lot of research and I will share a lot of that at the end, but from what I have gathered over the past five years is that the risk of rupture for a woman who pursues a vaginal birth after a myomectomy is anywhere between .4% to 1.7%. You can imagine that with such a low risk of rupture, you would think doctors would be comfortable or okay with supporting women to have a vaginal birth, but what I found out during that time was that most doctors are not supportive of VBAC, so it was going to be quite impossible for me to find another provider who would be supportive of a VBAM. I went on the ICAN website and at the time, they had a list of providers in this DMV area, and they had a list of all the providers and their C-section rates. They don’t have that anymore, but at that time they did. And so what I did is I went down the list and I chose providers who had a rate of 20% or lower and I just wrote it down in a notebook. I was making phone calls, then I would make appointments and I would go to the offices. And one after one, all of them barely gave me two minutes to even get the words out of my mouth. Once they heard what I was talking about and saw my report, they were like, “No.” I went to a dozen providers within a one-year span. Again, I wasn’t pregnant but I knew that when the time came, I needed support and they all told me, “No.”I was extremely defeated, but I had a mentor. She was my doula trainer and she gave me the name of one provider. She said, “Just go to him. He is really cool. He has a pretty low C-section rate. I know him personally. Maybe he will support you.” And I went. I had an appointment with him and he did. He said, “I have never done this before, but I looked at your report and I feel like it’s worth a try.”Meagan: Wow, that’s awesome. Mabel: Yeah. It was amazing after getting all of those “No’s” to finally have someone listen and hear me. Meagan: Yeah. I totally get it. That happened to me. I went to 12 doctors also and everyone was like, “You can try. I wouldn’t.” To find that doctor to say, “You know what? Yeah. I’ll support you in this. Let’s do it.” It is so amazing.Mabel: It really is. It’s a turning point and I know we talk a lot about supportive providers. I’ll circle back on that, but the freedom you feel when you have a doctor that you respect and it’s reciprocated goes so far. Meagan: Mhmm.Mabel: I always say that appointment was the turning point in my trying to conceive journey because I got pregnant the month after. This is for someone who had been trying to get pregnant for five years. It was like God was like, “Okay. This is your doctor. Now it’s time.”Julie: Yes. Mabel: I just think it was very serendipitous. I am just so grateful for him. Julie: It was meant to be. Mabel: But I did. I got pregnant. Yeah, it was. I got pregnant and y’all, I had a great pregnancy. I was happy. I felt beautiful. I felt sexy. I was my strongest. I just loved being pregnant. It was probably one of the best times of my life. At around 26 weeks though, my doctor whom I love so much died. Meagan: Oh my gosh!Julie: Oh my gosh!Mabel: He did. He had a heart attack and he died. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Mabel: It was a huge blow for me not just because this was someone that I really leaned on for my dream delivery, but he was also a very, very well-respected and well-known OBGYN in this area. And so it was a huge blow for the community. Not just me, but everyone else and every woman who just wanted great, quality care. We lost a giant in the birth world. Meagan: Oh yeah. Mabel: So it was a blow for me because I didn’t know what to do. Meagan: Right. Mabel: I decided to just forge on. At that point, once I knew that he supported me, there was nothing anyone else could say. So even if the other doctors in the practice started to show any type of hesitancy, it went over my head because I was like, “Dr. Gonzalez said he was going to support me. I don’t care what y’all say.” I was very stubborn. However, they weren’t pushy. They didn’t ever talk about a C-section or anything, but the vibe was very different in the office. I decided to switch over to a midwife and OB practice. My doula suggested it and I gave it a shot. I had heard about midwives and obviously, I was trained as a doula so I was familiar with midwifery care, but because of my unique history of having a myomectomy, I just didn’t see myself as eligible to be with a midwife if I could put it that way. Meagan: No yeah, that totally makes sense though because there are a lot of people who rule themselves out of midwifery care. They are totally qualified for midwifery care, but they don’t think so. Mabel: Yeah, it’s so true. Even at that time, I don’t think I realized that there were hospital-based midwives. I had learned and known about birth centers and home birth, but I had never interacted with a hospital-based midwife. I would say it all aligned up accordingly because when I did switch over to that practice, I was 36 weeks. I was very far along in my pregnancy. They also told me, they were like, “Hey, look. We usually wouldn’t do this. We are only doing this because we respect your doctor, Dr. Gonzalez.” So I had a feeling that if it was the other way around– if it wasn’t for him, I don’t think I would have found anybody in this area. So they took me in as a late transfer and at that point in my pregnancy, I was so firm on having a vaginal birth that I called the shots. I went to my appointment with all of the research that I had and I was like, “If you have any questions, you can read these articles. I am not going to talk about this.”Meagan: Good for you. Mabel: I was very, not annoying, but I just felt like at that point in my pregnancy, I didn’t have time for any negative energy. Not from my inner circle and not from my medical team. They weren’t pushy but they had their opinions on things. Long story short, the agreement we came upon was that I refused to be induced because I didn’t want anything to lead to a higher risk of rupture. I was also diagnosed with gestational diabetes during my pregnancy and I had done my research. I had done my own risk assessment and I felt that if my diabetes was well controlled, I should be able to go past my due date. That was a big thing for me, having the freedom and having the respect to go past my due date without any pressure from my birth team. And they agreed. I made it to 40 weeks and eventually, at 40 weeks and 6 days, I went into labor.I will honestly say that it was a very straightforward labor. I went into labor in the middle of the night. I labored at home with my doula for hours. I think my first contraction was at 4:00 a.m. and I was finally ready to go to the hospital at 4:00 p.m. When I got admitted, I was 5 centimeters and I just continued to labor in our labor and delivery room. I did all the things. I was on the peanut ball and on the birth ball and doing all the positions. I was able to negotiate to have intermittent monitoring. They let me on and off the monitors every 40 minutes or so. And so I really, I am just really grateful I had a team that gave me the space to do things my way, despite how unique my uterine history was.At around 9 centimeters, by this time– I got admitted to the hospital at 4:00 p.m– I decided to get the epidural at around 1:30 a.m. the next day. I had labored for a long, long time and I was just so exhausted. They checked me. They said I was 9 and baby hadn’t descended much and so I opted for the epidural to rest. It was the best decision for me. I took a nap maybe for a few hours and when I woke up, it was time to push. I pushed for about two hours and my son was born. I tell you, the minute he came out, I felt like my brain just exploded. We always say, “My mind was blown.” Literally, my mind was blown. I could not believe that for so long, I was told that vaginal birth was never an option for me, that my uterus was going to be destroyed and that I couldn’t do it and that I shouldn’t do it, and then finally, here comes this child out of me. I was like, “I can’t believe I almost missed out on this opportunity. I can’t believe that someone almost took this from me because they had never done it before.” Right? We call myomectomy a special scar. There are other special scars, right? Like classical, T-inverted, J-incision, and a myomectomy is one of them as well. I’m not here on this podcast to tell every person who has had a special scar that they should go and run out and have a vaginal birth. That’s not what I’m saying. But what I am saying is that because many times the literature is– there’s not a lot of it, right? So because there is very minimal research done on this topic, a lot of us are just categorized as extremely high-risk and it’s not even worth it for us to go on to even pursue a vaginal birth.  I feel like the whole process of leading me to the birth of my first son was really a lesson on self-education and self-advocacy. I know that I am supposed to be sharing my birth story, but this is really just about the work that it took for me to have this vaginal birth because, to be honest, my birth story is not any more special than the next woman who has had a vaginal birth. But what it is, is understanding and believing in physiological birth with the hopes that your body will do the work that it is intended to do despite the fact that it has gone through surgery. And so at that moment when my son was born, I was just like, “There is nothing anyone can tell me that I can’t do.”The fact that I had this child after a myomectomy, after multiple fibroids, after such a hard trying to conceive journey, and it was pretty much a seamless delivery, I was so, so, so proud of myself and I truly felt empowered at that moment. He was born and he was beautiful, and he was big. He was 9 pounds, 6 ounces and I am just so happy that I gave myself that chance to have the opportunity to experience a vaginal birth. I will say that birth is not without risk. VBAC is not without risk and the same thing for vaginal birth after myomectomy. After I had delivered him and my body was ready to deliver the placenta, I experienced a hemorrhage and it was quite a severe hemorrhage. It was something that personally blindsided me. After all the research I was doing, I had never really read about things like that. So it was scary. But it was handled swiftly and it was handled very well. I believe I was in the right place and in the right environment to help my body recover immediately after. And so I did have a hemorrhage and I personally will say that I can’t attest it to the myomectomy. It could have been a number of factors as to why I hemorrhaged. Thankfully, through a variety of tools, they were able to manage the hemorrhage and I was able to tend to my baby and breastfeed as soon as possible. I went home within the usual time frame for a vaginal birth. After that delivery and that experience, I was so thrilled and empowered by that experience that I told my husband that if I had the opportunity to do it again that I would love to do it at home or at a birth center. So for my second, I had my second son last year. I pursued a birth center delivery. Again, I had a beautiful and wonderful pregnancy, very straightforward. We did talk about my risk of hemorrhage, and so we came up with a plan as to how to actively manage a hemorrhage, but for my second, again, my body went into labor at 39 weeks. I labored for a couple of days, and then finally it was go-time. I think I had about three hours of active labor and he was born at the birthing center. With him, I had a water birth.And so just looking at the whole scheme, the whole experience of being pregnant twice, having two vaginal births after a myomectomy, it makes me feel that for anyone who is seeking a vaginal birth after any uterine procedure whether it is a C-section or a myomectomy, there is a lot of work that has to be done emotionally and mentally, but it is very possible. I am so sorry when I hear other women who have had a myomectomy be told immediately that they have to have a C-section because we know what that language does, that terminology of “have to”. It makes us feel that we are incapable, that birth is absolutely dangerous for us and it’s not true. There is a difference between absolute and relative risk and for me, I leaned on the relative risk and I succeeded. For my second born, even though I did not hemorrhage with him, I did have issues with delivering my placenta, and so even though his birth was beautiful and perfect, I did have to get transferred to the hospital to remove my placenta which actually came out quite easily when I got there. But it took some time when I was at the birth center, so we transferred over to the hospital to deliver the placenta.Both deliveries were quite traumatic to my body. Not to me emotionally, but for my body, it was a very traumatic experience. But I like to talk about these things because I think transparency is important, and then I also say this with the understanding that just because it happened to me doesn’t mean it’s going to happen to you. I don’t think that just because we hear other women go through some unique experience that it should deter you from pursuing your goal. I think we are all capable of assessing our own risks and making the right decisions that are important to us. I could go on and on about this.Meagan: No, I love it.Julie: We are just sitting here soaking it all in.Meagan: But it really is, it’s such an important thing to remember that just because someone says this, it doesn’t mean it’s not right for you, and then just because someone had a really good, positive experience doesn’t mean it’s going to be your experience either. It’s so hard. It’s just how we have to go through life in all things because everyone is different. Everyone has a different circumstance. Everyone has a different body, everything. Even though one pregnancy goes one way doesn’t mean the next pregnancy is going to go the other. And so it’s just so important to remember that. But I just love how you fought for what you felt was right for you because that is a really, really, really hard thing to do. Like, a really hard thing to do.Mabel: Oh yeah. It is.Meagan: Yes, and then to have such a traumatic experience like, “What the heck just happened? I just lost my doctor and the support that I was getting after looking for so long.” That had to just have shaken you.Mabel: Oh gosh.Meagan: So I am just so proud of you.Mabel: Thank you. You two are doulas. I am a doula too, so this is kind of going into the doula speak.Julie: Yep.Mabel: As doulas, especially for our VBAC clients, we stress so heavily finding a supportive provider. We do. We make it almost seem as though if you don’t have one, good luck to you, which, actually for me over the years, not just with my experience but with others and my clients, I have come to realize that not every VBAC hopeful is going to find a supportive provider. You have to come to terms and accept the fact that your doctor just may not support you. They may say or do things to deter you from making that decision, but despite that, you must press on anyway. And for me, especially when Dr. Gonzales died, at that point, I could’ve just been like, “Well, you know. I tried.” But at that point, I was like, “I’m going to have this baby whether he is alive or not. I’m going to have this a baby whether he is on call or not,” because we know that happens too. You can get somebody else and everything seems like a chaotic event. That’s something that I really feel personally about is that even if you don’t have a supportive provider, you still have the personal responsibility to know your rights and to know your options for your VBAC birth. You can’t lean on your doctor for the decisions that are only for you to make. That’s how I pursued my birth experience. That’s almost how I lead with my clients in the sense that we are just going to gather all of the information that we can get and use that as a decision as a means to make a decision. Of course, your doctor may say or do certain things and you may agree or disagree, but at the end of the day, this is about you. This is about you and your baby and your body and it’s going to be up to you to make up your mind to press on or to allow all of the negative energy or all of the conflicting information to haze your view.I feel that for me, I am no more special than the next person. I’m not. It’s not like I got lucky. It’s not that I am super smart, it’s just that I made up my mind. I made up my mind and I hope that for anyone listening to this that if you are ever unsure or if you feel like, “Oh, my partner doesn’t support me” or “My mother-in-law says this” or “My doctor doesn’t tolerate me,” you need to make up your mind and then from there, you move forward. If you need to hire a doula, if you need to take 20 different birth classes, if you need to read all of the books, if you need to pray, if you need to replay all of the podcasts, you do what it takes to get to where you need to be. Even if the outcome varies from what you were hoping for, at least you can say you did everything you could. And that’s how I forged on for this delivery experience because I didn’t have– there’s nobody on YouTube. There’s nobody on Google. There’s nobody in all of the birth clubs on Baby Sector. There’s no podcast of anybody who has had a vaginal birth after a myomectomy. However, I know it’s been done. There’s no way that they could have done all of that research. There were women that had to be a part of that research. So even if you don’t know anybody in your life or your inner circle who is pursuing a VBAC or a VBAM, it doesn’t mean that it can’t be done. I think that’s how I looked at it like, “Okay. I don’t have anybody that I can use as a resource or as a reference, but I know that I am not an anomaly and I also know that I am not asking for too much. I am not asking for a vaginal birth. I’m asking for support. I’m asking you to hear me. I’m asking you to give me time. I’m asking you to let my body do the work. Let my body do the work instead of you dictating what you think my body should do.”I don’t think it’s too much to say that if I don’t want another surgery, I don’t want another surgery. I think that’s the part that blew my mind when I started learning about advocating for myself. The fact that my pursuit was not about what my body was able to do. It wasn’t about my body’s ability. At the core of it, it came down to liability. What are these hospitals and doctors liable to? It’s easier and “safer” for them to do a C-section than to let my body have a trial of labor, but nobody was telling me about the risk of a C-section. Nobody told me the risk of having a C-section at 37 weeks. They just told me I had to have one. If I hemorrhaged with vaginal birth, God knows what could have happened with a C-section, but nobody told me about that.So a lot of these things boiled down to pulling what you understand about birth and what you have read as the evidence but then also believing in anecdotal evidence. I believe that a woman’s experience is just as viable as evidence and as something that I have found on a Google search. This is just how I approached my birth. And I mean, I’m sorry. I feel like I am on a soapbox or something. Julie: No, are you kidding me? I am sitting here listening to you and I am just like, “Yes!” I have had goosebumps for days over here. Oh my gosh. I am just like, “Do you want a job?” Because I would love to just sit and listen to you go on and on about all of the things you are talking about. About how you’re not asking for a vaginal birth, you’re just asking to be supported and you are just asking for somebody to listen to you and let you have things the way you want to experience them. Obviously, there are caveats that go in there that we want your safety and we want you to be healthy and everything like that but you just want somebody to support you and believe in you. That just gave me so many chills. I just loved it. Mabel: Yeah. There’s no reason why we should have such a low VBAC rate in this country. Absolutely not. Knowing how successful the majority of women should be, there is no reason why we should have a 9-10% VBAC rate in this country. Learning about VBAC helped me to realize that this is not about the vaginal aspect. This is about women’s rights if we really wanted to get to the core of it. This is about a woman’s right to make an informed decision or to make an informed refusal. And unfortunately, we are looked down upon if we refuse what our doctors or midwives or whatever the medical team says. And so for me, of course, I was like, “No,” and I was looked at like I was crazy. How dare you want to go against our hospital’s protocol. But when it comes down to it, I had the right to do that. It’s almost like if a woman has breast cancer and you tell that woman, “Hey. These are all of your options. You can go do this surgery. You can take this medication or you can do nothing.” If that woman said, “I don’t want to do anything,” it is not that doctor’s place to do and say everything to coerce her or to scare her into changing her mind. It’s not the doctor’s place to do that because you have given her the information. You have given her the risks and the benefits of her options for treatment and if she decides to do something contrary to what you have decided for her, then you have to respect that and the same thing goes for VBAC. If you tell this woman, “Hey, these are all of your risks and benefits. These are all the things,” and she says, “You know what? I still want to pursue a VBAC,” it is wrong to apply every fear tactic and every coercion and every barrier to make that woman comply with what you want. That’s what is going on in America today and that’s why we have such terrible outcomes. I am speaking this as a black woman, right? A black woman who is highly susceptible to fibroids, a black woman who is highly susceptible to maternal mortality, a black woman where in America, black women have the highest rate of C-section. We do. We also have the highest rate of poor outcomes, not just maternal mortality but even neonatal mortality. So this is bigger than what anybody can think about. This is really coming down to the core of what type of care are we giving women? Are we just giving everyone the run-of-the-mill care or are we individualizing it according to this woman’s needs? Obviously, it’s not the latter. If we were individualizing maternal healthcare, we would see better outcomes. We would see more VBACs. We would see fewer hemorrhages. We would see less death. But until that day comes, you as a woman can’t go into birth blindly. You can’t go into VBAC blindly. You can’t go into your first birth blindly. You have to have your eyes, ears, heart, and mind open because a lot of things can be unpredictable, but I’ll tell you, it’s not birth. Birth isn’t as unpredictable as everyone says. Usually, what makes it unpredictable are a lot of the factors that our medical system imposes on us. So I don’t know. I’m going to stop talking because I’m getting hot, but I had to say this. Julie: No, I love it. Mabel: I do say this by saying that vaginal birth after myomectomy is possible. It is. I had one. I know many women have had one. I am a part of a special scars group and our rate of vaginal birth after myomectomy is quite high. For the women who did not have a vaginal birth, it was not due to uterine rupture. So I’m saying that for the small number of women who have pursued vaginal birth after myomectomy, they either had the vaginal birth or they had a C-section but it was not related to rupture. I had even counseled other women who reached out to me and a number of those women have gone on to have vaginal births. I have had three clients who hired me. They had a myomectomy and they went on to have a vaginal birth. A couple of them have even had unmedicated vaginal births for their first child. So I feel like anything is possible if you have the support and the heart to go for it. Julie: I absolutely love that. You are 100% right. You had a lot of things working against you. You had the myomectomy. You had provider switching. You had to change providers near the end of your pregnancy and you’re dealing with a unique type of a special scar which, yes, plug in for the Special Scars Facebook Group page, and the website is specialscars.org. Like you said, as a black woman birthing in America, your Cesarean rate is four times as high. You are two to three times more likely to die in childbirth. Those are things that are inherently wrong, frankly, just wrong with our medical system right now. I absolutely love that you kept saying in your story that there’s nothing special about you, but I disagree 110%. I think that everything about you is special and I am just so grateful. I know Meagan is going to talk in just a minute, but I just wanted to thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story today because you are an incredible woman. Are you still practicing as a doula? Mabel: I am, but this is my last year practicing because yes, I am going back to school to be a midwife. Meagan: Yay!Julie: Yes. We need more. Meagan: I was going to say, “To be a midwife!”Julie: Yeah, yeah. Meagan: Oh, that makes me so happy. Seriously though, you are going to change your birth community. You are going to completely change your birth community. Julie: Absolutely. Meagan: You are mind-blowing. I got the chills listening to you. Like Julie said, you could go on and on and on. Julie: We would just eat you all up. Meagan: Yeah. Julie: We are eating all of your words up. Meagan: There’s not one second that I would be like, “Oh my gosh, this chick is talking forever.” Nope. I’d be like, “Give me more. Keep talking.” You are amazing. Mabel: Oh my gosh, no.  Meagan: You are so awesome. So awesome. And same as Julie, I am so grateful that you could be on the podcast and share this story because like I said, we have people writing us asking and saying, “We want a vaginal birth. Is this possible? Is this possible at all?”Seriously, so, so happy for you.Mabel: Yeah. This is not your typical birth story podcast. I guess the flow of this conversation isn’t like the others but I do hope for anyone who’s listening if ever they had a question or inquiry or if they even just wanted to chat, I do offer consultations. Even though I won’t be practicing as a doula for a while, I am still available in different ways. Julie: Absolutely. How can people contact you? Mabel: Yeah. You can reach out to me. I am very active on Instagram. The name of my business is Within Her Birth Services. You can find me on Instagram @withinherbirthservices and through that platform, you can find my email address or DM me. Also, you can check me out at www.withinherbirthservices.com. So yeah, that’s how you can find me. Julie: Perfect. Meagan: Oh my gosh, amazing. Thank you so much, seriously. Seriously. Julie: Yeah, thank you. ClosingInterested in sharing your VBAC story on the podcast? Submit your story at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Lindsay’s first birth was a planned home birth which ultimately resulted in a hospital transfer and emergency C-section. She was left feeling unprepared, unheard, and committed to fighting for a VBAC next time. Lindsay worked for months preparing for a VBAC both physically and emotionally. Once labor started, she was coping extremely well with her intense contractions. She arrived at the hospital at 10 centimeters, ready to have her baby!Until…her contractions completely stopped. Lindsay shares with us how she overcame ultimate doubt when pushing continued for over four hours. Doubt can creep in at any time on your VBAC journey. Trust yourself and your preparation. Lean into your supportive birth team. We know you can do this!Additional linksThe VBAC Link CommunityHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Julie: Welcome, welcome. This is Women of Strength Wednesday and you are tuned in to The VBAC Link podcast with Julie and Meagan and our special guest, Lindsay, today. We were actually just chitchatting a little bit before we pressed record about different providers and how they influence birth outcomes. Sometimes you will have a provider who is surprisingly more supportive than you would expect them to be and vice versa, right? So we are going to talk about that and all the different parts of Lindsay’s story in a little bit. Before we do that though, Meagan has a Review of the Week for us.Review of the WeekMeagan: Yes I do. This is from RokFray and it says “Getting VBAC Ready. This podcast has been inspiring and motivational to me as I prepare for a VBAC with my fourth baby. Listening to each of these stories and realizing that through listening I have learned how to advocate for myself and my family has been a true blessing. Thank you!”And I just want to say thank you to RokFray for sharing your review. Julie and I say it all the time. We love your reviews. We truly mean it. And honestly, we are running out of some reviews because we haven’t been recording for so long. We haven’t had a ton of reviews here coming in and so we would love some new, fresh reviews so we can read them on future podcasts.Julie: You never know. Maybe next week, we will read yours.Meagan: Yep.Julie: I love it. I always remember that time when somebody was Review of the Week and they posted on their Instagram. Well, I guess it has happened a couple of times, but it just makes me happy. Getting reviews, reading them, and everyone letting us know how we have been helping you so thank you, thank you. It means a lot to us.Lindsay’s StoryJulie: All right. Let’s get to it. We have Lindsay with us today. Lindsay is an Advertising Account Director and a mom of two. She loves being a mom and thinks bringing babies earthside is one of the most surreal experiences that we have as mothers. “Childbirth is the best lesson a mother can experience,” she says. “A lot is out of our control, so plan for the worst and hope for the best.” Do you know what that reminds me of? That reminds me of when I was in the military. Plan for the worst and hope for the best because I don’t know if anybody out there listening is in the military, or a military spouse, or has ever been in the military, but you know that whenever things can go wrong if there is a possibility, then it probably will go wrong. So you have got to just kind of expect not very much, but hope for great things. That just reminded me of that when I was just reading your bio. Lindsay. But I like that sentiment because you can prepare for all of the things, right? You can prepare for all of the outcomes, but always hope for and even expect the best outcomes as well. So I love that.But Lindsay, why don’t you go ahead and tell us a little bit more and share your story with us?Lindsay: awesome. Thanks so much, Julie. So I will start with my pregnancy and the birth of my son which was my first C-section. It took us a while to get pregnant with my son. We thought that it was going to be quite simple and it turns out it wasn’t. So with a little bit of help from a fertility specialist, we successfully got pregnant. We were so excited and he recommended that we be handed over to the care of midwives. I had a low-risk pregnancy. I was in great shape, healthy, and a strong BMI, so he felt like this would be the best care provider for what I needed. And then also with my style, he loved that and recommended that we have someone who would be really guiding throughout.He also recommended that I ask them about homebirth, which was probably unexpected for most coming from more of the traditional Western medicine perspective. So we started on with the midwives. We loved them instantly and homebirth was brought up pretty early on. And so we had planned for a homebirth and in this, my biggest learning was that we really focused on the homebirth and the realities of a homebirth. We didn’t necessarily talk about labor preparation.So I had read Ina May Gaskin’s Guide to Childbirth and I had chatted with friends who had gone through labor, especially in natural labor and delivery, and so I felt like I was prepared enough until I was 40 weeks pregnant– 40 weeks, 4 days exactly– and my water broke. It was the slow leak. We confirmed that the amniotic sac ruptured. I was slowly leaking fluid, but I wasn’t under stress and baby’s heart rate was fine, so we made a little bit of a plan. If I hadn’t gone into labor in 24 hours, then I would go in to the hospital and we would do an induction. If I did go into labor naturally, then I would continue on with a planned homebirth.So we went home with the instruction to just enjoy each other‘s company and try to wind down. It was really hitting home that this was our last moment where we would have just the two of us and our dog in this house. And so we were anxious, excited, nervous and that was when I started feeling the, “Oh my god. I wonder what labor feels like.” At 9:30 p.m., I had my first contraction. It was a very traditional wave. I felt the build. I felt the release. I went through the motions of like, “Okay. I can handle this,” and then quickly let my husband know that, “Okay, so labor is starting.” My mom was coming over and we were prepared for what was about to come. I gave both of them the call sheet for the midwives and we went over the birth plan and were feeling good.Within an hour, I had all back labor, no break between contractions, was really nauseous, and something just didn’t feel right. I kept saying to my husband and my mom like, “We need to call the midwife. We need to call the midwife,” and they were just calm and steady like, “Lindsay, you are doing great. It’s okay.” And at that point, my mom said, “I think you are having back labor–”Meagan: MhmmLindsay: “–based on the fact that you don’t have any breaks and it’s just back-to-back.” I had been given the instructions to not go in the water, and so for me, that meant I shouldn’t even be standing in the shower. I was a very cautious first-time laborer and after some pretty frantic, “Call the midwife! Call the midwives!”, my mom and husband in fact called the midwives and we agreed to do a home visit. They were going to come and check on me and likely transfer me to the hospital just because I was having a hard time managing the pain.And so my midwives came over and checked me. I was only about 5 centimeters dilated. I was having a really hard time managing the pain. It just goes back to total unpreparedness. I had read one book and had some conversations, but I don’t think I necessarily understood the different ways that labor can feel. The thought of it being exclusively in my back was such a foreign concept to me and really unbearable.We drove to the hospital which was less than five minutes away. My husband was asking me on the way there like, “You are going to do up your seatbelt right?” I could barely sit down. I am not concerned about my seatbelt. And so we get to the hospital in the wee hours of the morning. It’s about 3:00 a.m. and we were waiting now for an epidural.I am laboring, very vocal, have a lot of discomfort, and am still a little bit unsure if this is normal, where I am feeling it, and not being provided with a lot of reassurance that I am doing great and that this is normal. And so now at this point, I am like a little bit panicked like, “This is a foreign feeling. I don’t know what’s going on. I feel totally unheard and I also feel voiceless. I’m asking questions and I just feel like I am not really being given reassurance and direction.”Of course, my husband being a first-time dad and first time witnessing labor is also a little bit of a deer in the headlights like, “What is happening? Is my wife okay and is this normal?” And so an hour in, we start asking, “Where is the epidural? Where is the anesthesiologist? We need some sort of pain meds.” My approach was an epidural or bust.I didn’t want to take fentanyl or laughing gas unnecessarily. I would rather just go for the good stuff and get the epidural. I don’t tolerate pain medication well, and so I was apprehensive about the effects that it would have on me but also recognized that I was feeling like it was an out-of-body experience and like I just couldn’t handle this. I did not have confidence in myself.So around 4:30, it was like one of those lightbulb moments where I was like, “My massage therapist said if I feel back labor, ask for the bee stings,” which is sterile water injections in my low back.Meagan: Oh yes.Lindsay: It was the first time I was able to really advocate for myself in labor. I was like, “Can I get a sterile water injection? I will take the bee stings,” which are definitely a little bit more aggressive than a bee sting. I must have just been stung by really a really lightweight bee in the past.But I got the sterile water injection and instantly felt relief. At that moment, I was like, “Man, I can handle this. I feel really good about now.” I started to feel proper contractions and a proper wave inching closer to 5:00 and so at that point, I am like, “Okay. I am handling this well.” I suddenly felt the urge to bear down. And so I went to the washroom and as I am sitting I am like, “It feels like I have to poop.” And so my midwife– I am vocalizing this and she is like, “Okay. Let’s give you a quick check,” and so at that point, she was like, “Listen. The anesthesiologist is about to walk in.” She gave me a check and I was 8 centimeters.Meagan: Wow.Lindsay: And so she said, “You are at the cusp and so you either get the epidural now or you don’t get it at all.” I was just blindly looking at her for advice and guidance and I was like, “I guess I think I should get it,” and she was like, “I think that is a good decision.” I got the epidural and I felt relief. But going back to preparedness and not feeling heard, at that point, being prepared– I was not prepared for an epidural. And so as I am leaning over my husband, he, in turn, was also not prepared. He was like, “I may pass out. That is a very large needle.” I was just like, “Just stick it in me. I need to feel some sort of relief.” As soon as the effects of the epidural kicked in, suddenly I felt like, “There is no turning back. I have just made a horrible decision.” Maybe I was handling labor okay and I was starting to feel some relief. I was just on the cusp of transition because as soon as I had the epidural, I had the hormone shakes and the sweats, and so I was transitioning naturally anyways. The feeling of defeat was really stinking in.At 5:30 and the direction was, “Rest. You need to sleep and we are just going to flip you on a peanut ball side to side.” So every 30 minutes, my husband and my midwife would wake me up and flip me. It was just side to side with the peanut ball until about 7:00 a.m. At that point, I was 10 centimeters dilated and they decided to just let me continue resting. I felt nothing, so I didn’t feel the urge to push. They said, “Around 10:00-11:00, we will check in and you can start pushing at that point.”So at that point, they come in and say, “Okay. You need to start pushing.” The piece I missed in this was that my mom and dad had come to the hospital to give my husband some relief so that he could go and have a coffee and a bite to eat because keep in mind, we weren’t planning for a hospital birth, so we were really not prepared. We had a small hospital bag packed and that was about it. My dad is asking my midwife, “What if she can’t push this baby out?” and he is kind of leading the horse like, “What is going on? Is there something happening with her or with the baby? What’s the next step?” They were like, “No, no. She has had an epidural. Even if this baby is in a bad position, she can push it out.” And this was the first moment where I heard the baby was in a bad position.Meagan: Yeah. No one said anything.Lindsay: No one said anything and I didn’t realize that my water breaking early was likely due to an OP baby. And again, it was just a lack of communication or something that I wasn’t aware of. My dad keeps asking, “What if the baby is turned a little bit?” or “What if the baby is OP?” Like, “Nope. Nope. She’s had an epidural. She can push this baby out okay.”So we have now gone from homebirth to hospital to feeling really in the dark and really unclear about what’s happening. I had this epidural that I am deeply regretting at this point, but there’s no turning back and it’s time to start pushing and I feel absolutely nothing. And so I push for a couple of hours. No headway is being made. At this point, there is a change in the midwife team so I am with a different midwife and she said, “I’m just going to step out of the room,” looking to my husband and I. “When you see a contraction on the monitor, continue to push. Continue to breathe through it and I will be back.”About 15-20 minutes later, which felt like a lot longer, she came back with the OBGYN on call. He, in a very flat and direct way, said, “You are spiking a fever. The baby’s heart rate is dipping and your heart rate is dropping.” I have incredibly low blood pressure to begin with. So he said, “These three factors, coupled with the likelihood that your baby is OP– we are bringing you in for a C-section.” I was absolutely gutted.Meagan: Was it like, “Hey, this is why I think a C-section is needed” or it was it like, “This is what we are doing.” Did you feel like you had an option? Do you know what I meanLindsay: Yeah. So like, yeah. Totally, totally. So I’m sure you can see two first-time parents who have from a homebirth to now being a hospital to suddenly being told they are having a C-section, which we know absolutely nothing about other than it was a major abdominal surgery.Meagan: Yeah.Lindsay: And so I’m sobbing saying, “Can we turn off the epidural? Can we bring down the epidural even a little bit? Rip it out of my vein,” beause I have no concept of how it works, right? My husband is saying, “Can she just push for another 30 minutes?” And very flat, he was just like, “No. The difference in time is five minutes to talk about it now and to open you up in here versus bringing you into the OR.”Meagan: Whoa.Lindsay: And so again, my husband and I were just looking at him. There was really no other option that was presented to us at least. We were grasping at straws. He just again reiterated very calmly, “I understand that this is not what you wanted, but we need to get this baby out now.” And so they bring us to the OR. My husband is a wreck. We haven’t been prepped for this procedure, so he is waiting as I am signing forms. This amazing nurse is wiping my tears so that I can somewhat sign blindly. It’s about 2:00ish in the afternoon. We get into the OR. We had gone from a dark room with no windows and little candles everywhere to this stark, sterile, bright light environment. A different anesthesiologist came in. The energy was so nonchalant in comparison to the fear and grief that my husband and I were feeling. The anesthesiologist was phenomenal. He spoke to us throughout the entire C-section at every stage. He reassured us off the top by saying, “My wife has had two C-sections beyond seeing this through my job on a day-to-day basis. I know exactly what’s going to happen. I will talk to you through this.”And so he talked us through it. He held my shoulder. My husband held my hand. By this point, I am maxed out on my epidural. I can feel my left side. It was really traumatic beyond just the flow of how the birth went, but also being in this very sterile environment and feeling a lot of what was happening.But again, the anesthesiologist just was so wonderful, coaching us through it and really, I’m sure he could sense our fear. My sweet little boy came out and was put to my face. I turned and I was like, “I think I’m going to throw up. I am super nauseous.” I am out of it at this point. I wanted to name my son Benjamin, which was not a name that my husband and I had discussed. The anesthesiologist said, “This is no longer something that you have to feel.” He gave me a good shot of fentanyl to really knock me out.And so, three hours later, I woke up to my husband doing skin-to-skin with my son Miles, not Benjamin and from there, I was confused, disoriented and in a lot of pain and discomfort, wanting to nurse. Breastfeeding was really important to me, really wanting to bring him in for our first latch and even from there, trying to latch my son but not being able to sit up and bring him to my chest, and just having a midwife take my breast and shove it in my baby’s face. I felt like I didn’t matter which, I think, was the furthest thing from the intention. It was rather, “We need to get this done.”Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, but still. I feel like there was such a lack of including you in everything. It was just like things were being done to you versus with you, and so I could see how you were feeling that.Lindsay: Thank you. Yeah, exactly. So we ended up having two days in the hospital and really focused on nursing and controlling what I could control. So making sure that I was walking as quickly as I possibly could. We were really focused on breastfeeding and getting my son on an every two hours nursing schedule on top of on-demand while focusing on letting him get that long stretch of sleep at night. So that’s why I started to excel as a mom and really stepped into my own, but I carried a lot of trauma and grief from that birth. I remember the first night being at home laying in bed, my son was fussing and my husband was walking at the end of the bed back-and-forth with him on his chest. I was just sobbing saying, “You don’t realize how lucky you are. All I want to do is get up and walk my son back-and-forth. This is what I’ve dreamed of and I can’t.”And so the first few weeks, also feeling like I was pretty helpless in terms of my lack of mobility and how sore I was, and it was just a much longer recovery then I had anticipated and was prepared for. And so at my last discharge appointment, my question was, “Can I do a VBAC? Can I deliver vaginally after a Cesarean?” It was a very clear, “Absolutely. Your baby was OP.” So my son Miles was full OP and he also was 9 pounds, 2 ounces.Meagan: Hmm, a bigger baby.Lindsay: So he was pretty big. A bigger baby and at the point of the C-section, he had descended so far down the birth canal that he was just stuck. And so the message was, “You can absolutely do a VBAC. In your next pregnancy, we will focus on a lot of bodywork, chiropractic care, and massage,” so some of the things that I was doing before. The big one was diet. I had gained a lot of weight in my pregnancy with my son. I definitely was carrying a bigger baby and that showed, but I was an all belly pregnancy and very active. We are talking hiked 15 kilometers at 38 weeks active. I felt, at that point, pretty defeated. Like, “Okay. I must carry big babies, but for my next pregnancy and birth, I am going to do everything within my control to have a VBAC and whatever else is passed over to the higher powers.”And so I continued on raising my little boy, really loved being a first-time mom. We were keen to expand our family, and so we ended up getting pregnant a lot sooner than expected. We got pregnant when my son was about nine months and we just made it in on the cusp of when they would endorse and support a VBAC versus mandate or strongly recommend a C-section. Where I am, 18 months is the standard and my babies were exactly 18 months apart. So I really, really just snuck in there.Julie: Nice, nice.Lindsay: So I’m pregnant with my second and I just started to consume a ton of literature and content all around VBACs. If something was recommended to me, I did it without hesitation. I went for chiropractic care and massage very early on. I saw an acupuncturist. I did Spinning Babies religiously. I hired a doula and I followed her lead and guidance. I used her as a sounding board and I focused on what I could control which was finding my voice and using it, and learning about birth and labor so that I could be undeniably prepared for what was about to happen.I also was really keen to have a homebirth just knowing statistically that homebirths for VBACs statistically are more successful in terms of a vaginal delivery. Unfortunately, my midwife team couldn’t endorse that. It was just out of their scope of practice, and so I did have to deliver in hospital. I just focused on really getting over those mental hurdles so that when it came time to being in labor, all I would focus on was just my labor and what was happening within my body.So at about 37 weeks, I started to actively try to induce labor. I wouldn’t say I was doing anything like drinking a midwives’ cocktail, for example. It was more so just focusing on ensuring that my body was prepared for labor and when my body was ready to go into labor, I was ready right there with it.I started doing acupuncture weekly. I was drinking my red raspberry leaf tea. I was doing my Spinning Babies, really focusing on inversions and bodywork for strong baby positioning. My baby was head down but not engaged in my pelvis yet, and so I was like, “I just want to make sure that this baby stays where he or she is supposed to be.”At 40 weeks exactly– she is a due date baby– I went into labor. The piece before this is, I had started pre-labor at about 38 weeks. So for two weeks I was in prodromal labor. Am I saying that correctly?Meagan: Prodromal labor, mhmm.Lindsay: Thank you. And so I was consistently feeling strong Braxton Hicks and it was manageable, something that I wasn’t even really noticing because I was so busy with a 17-18 month old, but it was something I was noticing– the feeling and shift in my body. For the four nights leading up to my birth, every night from 11:00 p.m. to 5:00 a.m., I would have consistent contractions. It was this feeling of the wave, the build, and the release, but by 5:00 a.m., they would just go away. So on a Monday night, we had called our doula thinking, “I am for sure in labor.” My contractions were getting closer together. They were getting stronger and they were definitely more consistent than the previous waves.As soon as she entered our house, they stopped. And so I am like, “Yeah. We have just been up for hours tracking this.” Now it was to the point where I was uncomfortable and couldn’t stay in bed. And so we started talking about what I was feeling and I was like, “It just feels like something is tickling my bladder.” She was like, “That, my friend, is a hand. I think your baby has his or her hand in front of her face, so often you will see that start-stop labor pattern because the baby isn’t in a position where you can actively go into labor.”This was really the start of feeling so heard, being able to talk through what was happening and have a solution provided and also the validation of, “You’re not going crazy. You are feeling something real within your body and it is going to be okay.”And so she gave me some exercises and very strict direction like, “Do these exercises. Rest today and let’s see what happens that night. Let’s touch base before you go to bed and let see what happens.” So we get my son in bed. We call my doula and she said, “Okay. Here is the plan. You are going to go in the bath. You are going to do this exercise–” where I lay on the pillow and kind of let my leg hang and float.Meagan: Side-lying. Mhmm. Side-lying probably.Lindsay: No like, laying face first in the bath.Meagan: Oh, in the bath. Wow!Lindsay: In the bath. Yeah.Meagan: Okay, cool.Lindsay: Yeah. “You get in the bath. You are going to relax. You are going to lay on your belly and you are going to let it just hang.” My tub was just big enough to do this comfortably. And she was like, “And then from there, you are going to go to bed and you are going to try to get as much sleep as possible. If at 5:00 a.m., your contractions are still strong and consistent, I am coming over and we are going to kickstart this labor.” Let’s do it. I felt like we had a plan in place. And so I am laying in the tub and I am just going over my mental mantras like, “You are strong. You are healthy.” I definitely watched my diet in this pregnancy. Not that I was unhealthy with my son, but I was really strict with the sugar that I consumed and what I put inside my body.I was like, “Your body was made to birth this baby. You can do this.” And so I just had my mantras that I said over and over. I got ready for bed. I tucked in. My husband and I were lying there. At 9:30, I have my first contraction and it feels just like my son.Meagan: In the back?Lindsay: All in my back and I am instantly like, “This is–”Meagan: Triggering, probably.Lindsay: Triggering, yeah. It’s happening again. And so I’m turning to my husband and I am like, “You need to call the midwives. You need to call the doula. I need to go to the hospital now.” My husband was just such a calm, strong voice of reason. He was like, “Okay Linds. We are going to crank up the bath. We’re going to crank up the bath to a hot, hot heat and get you in it for some comfort and relief and I am going to call the doula.” And so I get in the bath and I am sitting facing the long side of the bathtub wall, kind of pressing against it with my knees up, and we are running the water hot. He is pressing on my pressure points and my low back. He calls the doula and he is like. “This is it. She is in labor. This is happening.” And she was like, “Okay. Well, talk to me. What is happening?” And he is now kind of frantic like, “No, no. There is no time for me to tell you what is happening. She is in labor.”And so he quickly says, “She is in the bath. It is as hot as we can get it. I am pressing on her back and if you don’t come here, we are going to the hospital.” Keep in mind, I was pregnant during COVID, so our doula couldn’t come with us to the hospital. She could only be with us at home.Julie: Oh man.Meagan: Yeah, aww. Oh no.Lindsay: So she gets to the house and it’s now like 10:00ish. She takes over for my husband, pressing on my low back and she is like, “Okay. You’ve got this.” She is like, “You are doing so great, Linds.” She’s asking me how I am feeling. She’s asking me about the sensation and I am like, “It is in my back, but I do get relief when you are pressing on the pressure points. It is just that it’s now in my back and my hips.” I could just feel everything moving down.And so at 11:00, and an hour where I am in this bathwater, she’s like, “Okay. Let’s get you out and let’s make a plan on what we are going to do.” We knew I had to transfer to hospital because I didn’t feel comfortable birthing a baby without medical support in my home. And so we are standing in my living room, slowly getting me dressed. She transitions to doing these exercises where every contraction, I press up against the wall with loose knees and she lifts my belly up as I lean over her. The whole intention was just ensuring that we were working with my body and baby to get my baby in the best position.Meagan: Yeah, like an abdominal lift.Lindsay: I think that’s what it’s called. Don’t quote me on that, but I am going to guess.Meagan: Yeah, that’s awesome. It’s intense too, for you.Lindsay: Super intense, but we are in such a good rhythm. We are like, “Now we have a plan for every contraction.” I have the rhythm. I’m feeling really good. She calls the midwives and she’s like, “Okay. Lindsay’s contractions are two minutes apart and consistently a minute long,” and the midwife was like, “Meet me at the hospital now.” I had been in labor for an hour and a half and I knew things were moving quickly.And so we hang up in my doula was like, “Listen. You are in charge here. We will go to the hospital when you want to go to the hospital. 30 minutes, an hour, we get there when we get there. So what feels good for you?” Again, it was just that validation of feeling a part of what was happening and feeling like I was steering the ship. We decided that my husband was going to pack the car and in the next 30-ish minutes to an hour, I would be at the hospital. She was like, “Let’s just continue to focus on this really good rhythm.” So at 11:15, I looked to her and I was like, “I am in transition.” She’s like, “Okay. Tell me what you are feeling. I was like, “I am shaking. My contractions are back-to-back. I am cold and hot at the exact same time. I’m sweating from pores I didn’t even know existed.” She was like, “Yep. You’re definitely in transition,” and very, very calm.Meagan: Positive things, positive things.Lindsay: Positive things, yeah. She was like, “We should probably get you into the car.” Just as we were getting downstairs, I had that little pause in contractions and she was like, “Okay. So when you get to the hospital–” reminding me of all of the things to ask for like how many centimeters dilated I am, what station I am at, so on and so forth. And so I am feeling good about going and we are kind of waiting. I was still like, “Let’s have one more contraction, and then get me in the car and we will go straight to the hospital. So that’s the plan.”There was like a little break. I am enjoying the relief and all of a sudden, there was a contraction. I get on the wall and she lifts my belly. I am leaning over her and my husband, and just as she lifts my belly, baby drops and I used some very foul language directing everybody to get their hands off of me. My doula drops to the floor. She just looks up and she is like, “Are you okay?” “I think so.” She was like, “Okay. Are we doing this here or are you going to the hospital? We need to go to hospital now.”So she helps me out to the car, which, I am sure at 11:30p.m. was quite the sight for any of my neighbors because she is behind me but also cautiously ready to drop to the ground at any second. My husband is now panicked in the car honking the horn like, “We need to go!” So I get in the car– quickest ride I have ever had to our hospital. We pull into the labor and delivery ward, do the COVID screen and get in. I go in first, but my husband hast to stay back and wait. And so I go into the first section of the labor and delivery ward and my midwife does my check. She is kind of scolding me like, “You said you would be here in 30 minutes to under an hour and it has been an hour.” I am just calm, cool and collected like, “How many centimeters am I dilated?” I am prepped for an 8. She was like, “All right. So you’re 10 centimeters dilated. The next step is to break your water and push the baby out.” So she tells me to go to the end of the hall to labor and delivery room and she was like, “I’m going to go get your husband because it is go time.” We get into the room and everything stopped. My contractions were nonexistent. My energy was different. I no longer felt in the zone. I felt edgy and amped up a little bit. I was totally experiencing fight or flight. And so they were like, “Okay.” We get my doula on the iPad. She is FaceTimed in now. I am excited and nervous, but my body has now totally stopped.That’s where the doubt starts to creep and like, “I don’t know if I can do this.” All of the literature about feeling not comfortable in your space and all of that, I am like, “I just don’t know. I am out of my labor zone.” So they break my water and I feel the pressure of the baby bearing down. I just keep asking, “So when do I start pushing?” I am like, “There are not really any contractions.” This is a very different feeling now. They were like, “Oh, you will feel it. On your next contraction, if you feel the urge to push, you can absolutely bear down.”And so about an hour and a half into being at the hospital, I finally start having consistent contractions again. Because I am a VBAC, I have consistent fetal monitoring. The baby is not in distress and my heart rate is great, so we just carry on. My contractions now are existent but just noneffective. And so between every fourth contraction, my midwives and my doula were getting me into a different position to try to get this baby out. Within the first push they were like, “The baby is right there,” and I just wasn’t able to push.I am pushing and my midwife is directing me, so now she is inside me pressing down like, “Push here.” She is like, “You are pushing really effectively,” and so it becomes a little bit of this puzzle. I am fully dilated. My waters are broken. I do have contractions and we are trying different positions, but this baby is just not coming.And so it’s about two hours in. I am getting pretty tired because it’s the middle of the night and feeling super defeated. The same narrative of, “You can’t do this,” is echoed by a member of the care team. At this point, I am like, “Get this baby out of me.” Like, “We are going to need some medical intervention for this baby to arrive Earthside. I cannot do this anymore.”Meagan: Aww yeah. Just total doubt.Lindsay: Total doubt despite being very prepared and having such a strong voice. My husband was like, “Linds, you can do this. You have worked so hard for this.” He was like, “I can literally see the baby. You’ve got this. It’s okay. You can do this.” And then there was a student midwife and a very new midwife– I think she had graduated a year or six months prior– and they were incredibly encouraging. They were like, “Lindsay, we are working with you. You’ve got this, girl. You’ve got this.” Every contraction cheering me on, so the energy was so positive, but it was just like, the combination of myself and another provider that lacked confidence that really took the scheme out of the labor.And so now it’s 4:00 in the morning, four hours into pushing and they say, “We are going to bring an OB consult.” I am pretty distraught at this point. I have no medication. I am really leaned in to like, “I am going to do this naturally one way or another.” My husband is advocating for me and such a big support system. I have two relatively junior midwives who are like, “You are doing this.” We decide despite all that that we are going to call in an OB consult. By chance, it was one of my most favorite OBGYNs on call that night. She was there to do another emergency C-section.And so she walked in and we went over the chart. She was like, “Man.” She had done my consult for if I was a VBAC candidate, and so she was like, “Linds, you can do this.” She was like, “You are so close.” She said, “Here’s the thing. I have another emergency C-section. You are not in distress. Your baby is not in distress. You’re both doing well, so while I do this other C-section, your job is to lay on your side with the peanut ball, knees together for the 30-45 minutes it takes me to do my other C-section. I will come back and if you are not progressing and you are still struggling to push out this baby, then we will do a C-section.”And so I felt at that point, “If it goes to a C-section, I am okay with that. I feel like I have really done everything in my power.” Pushing for that long was physically exhausting and not rewarding. So I’m like, “That’s cool. I’ll lay on my side on the peanut ball as uncomfortable as it is. I will bear down and it’s going to be what it’s going to be.”And so she leaves the room. I am on my side and because my midwife had kept checking they were like, “The baby is not OP. It just keeps rotating from left to right.” It was my body. I just wasn’t working in the right position to have the baby tuck under my pubic bone and out.When the OBGYN checked me she was like, “Absolutely. This baby just keeps rotating right to left,  and so we just need to get it in the best birthing position. Let’s have you lay on this side as a last ditch effort.” She walks out and comes back in 45 minutes later and she is like, “Oh my god. We’re about to have this baby. Like right now, we are about to have this baby.” She is in full scrubs and walks back out of the delivery room. At this point, I am like, “Where is she going? I need her in here.”Meagan: You’re like, “Wait, I thought you said we were going to have this baby.”Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah.Meagan: “And you leave?!”Lindsay: Yeah. I’m like, “Am I doing this solo? What’s happening here?” My midwives laugh and they’re like, “No, no. She just has to release the OR team because everyone is on standby to see if they are doing a section on me.” And so she walks in 30 seconds later and after about four pushes, my sweet little baby girl was born.Meagan: Aww. That is quite, I mean, gosh. That is quite the journey during the pushing stage. A lot of people would have totally been told like, “You have no option. You are going to a C-section,” after it had been just a couple of hours of pushing. They kept giving you more time and I just think it is awesome. I mean, it is really awesome that you guys had those providers in there to advocate for you.Overcoming DoubtBut I wanted to talk a little bit about that doubt that you talked about was creeping in. It doesn’t always just creep in at the end. It can creep in during all periods of labor and even before labor begins. I think it’s awesome that you had your team there. I mean, your husband obviously is amazing and was like, “You have worked so hard for this. You can do this.” He built you up, but what’s a little piece of advice that you would give to our listeners? Because I think that is something that happens all the time. It happened for me. I mean, I think everyone who has heard my story– I think I shared it. I was throwing a fit in the driveway because my water broke and it triggered me. It was like, “No, it’s not going to happen.” I just had this total doubt. What would you say really, really helped you? Do you think it was your team? What did you do physically and mentally to just be like, “Okay, yes,” and snap back into it, water splashed back into your face?Lindsay: It was a combination of having the toolbox and building my own toolbox. So doing the reading, and The VBAC Link was on every morning and every night. I consumed podcasts and good news stories like they were liquid gold. I read the books. If someone made a suggestion, I did it blindly, and so I felt like the toolbox of confidence and support was built and that was me. That wasn’t anyone else. That was me wanting to know, wanting to be educated, and wanting to feel empowered and confident going into labor. And then that married with building the team that I knew would support me so that when I had a question and labor, when something came up, I was able to not only go into my toolbox, but also to my support team and know that they had my back.To your point, when that doubt creeped in it didn’t creep in on its own. There was an external voice in the room that supported that. It was the moment of my husband saying, “You can do this.” But I was like, “Yeah. He is right. I can do this.” And also, “I don’t have to listen to her.” I can listen to everyone else in the room that is validating me, supporting me, and believes in me. And so hat was my two-prong approach to building up my confidence and empowerment. If something doesn’t feel right, just continue to ask and lean into that until it feels like you’ve been heard and it feels like you understand what’s happening.Meagan: Yes. I love that. Such great tips because it does. It really does happen and yeah. Like you said, it didn’t just happen. It was placed there, and then it got worse. So I love that so, so much. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I loved it. I am so proud of you and I’m so happy that you were able to have your doula there for a little while and all of that. These COVID births, man. They are all so interesting to hear how they went down. But we are so grateful that you had your team. Julie, is there anything you want to add or anything?Julie: Nope. I think that sounds great. It’s a great story. I love all of the preparation that you did. I was kind of like that too with my first VBAC. I just did everything. Somebody told me about a resource, I sucked it all up. I went to all of the birthing groups. I soaked in of all of the stories, just all of it. I absolutely love that. I think it’s so important.Meagan: Mhmm.Lindsay: My close network of moms that had C-sections either hadn’t had a VBAC yet, weren’t interested in doing a VBAC, or had just gone straight to a repeat section. So I felt like my personal network was really limited in terms of the resources and questions that I could ask and lean on. And so I just turned on to an online community. So The VBAC Link Community being such a good example. If I don’t have someone to ask, where can I find that information from other real-life humans, not necessarily just a book right?So yeah. So that’s kind of where I landed and it’s so funny because I left the hospital fairly quickly. So I gave birth at 6:13 and I was home by two. And so it was partially due to Covid and partially due to the natural delivery, like let’s get her back home and comfortable and that night, my Julie came over to check in and see how we were doing and meet our little baby and the first thing I said was, I can’t wait to do it again. Do you know? Our family isn’t complete yet and yeah, I can’t wait to do it again. And so July 31, we are doing it again.Meagan: No! This year?Lindsay: Yeah. This year.Meagan: Oh my gosh. That’s so awesome.Julie: Yay.Meagan: Oh, congratulations. That is so awesome. So, so awesome.Julie: Yeah.Lindsay: Yeah. It’s a very similar approach, you know? I went in and went with the midwife team that supports me that I felt heard by and that I feel like the most comfortable with in our monthly appointments. I reached out to my doula right away and she typically doesn’t take summer clients, but I snuck in there which was awesome. And yeah. We are just doing everything again that we can. We have the confidence of success, of course, in our back pocket, but it is the same approach. Control what you can control.Meagan: Mhmm. Yeah.Julie: Yeah.Meagan: Oh, I love it. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and we really, really do appreciate you.Lindsay: Thank you.ClosingInterested in sharing your VBAC story on the podcast? Submit your story at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

The only predictable thing about birth is its unpredictability! When Carly felt the urge to push at home, she realized that there wasn’t enough time to make it to her hospital of choice. She would have to have to fight for her VBAC at the closest hospital– the same hospital where she had her traumatic C-section.Though she wasn’t treated with the respect she deserved yet again, this time, Carly held her ground. This time, Carly was in control. This time, Carly birthed her baby how she knew she could.“The first time I became my mom was literally a once-in-a-lifetime experience for me and I felt like that had been stepped on for so many different reasons. The second time around, I was like, ‘I am going to fight for this.’”Additional linksThe VBAC Link Blog: How to Find a Truly Supportive ProviderMamastefit How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: You guys, it is The VBAC Link. We are back. We are so happy. We are four weeks into this and seriously, it is just making me smile every single time we record with another guest. It is Meagan and Julie with The VBAC Link and we have a guest today. Her name is Carly and she will be sharing her VBAC story. You guys, she is pretty stinking amazing. She does all the things. She does cloth diapers, co-sleeps– all the things. I am reading through her bio and I am like, “She is amazing.” You are so amazing. Cloth diapering is a hard thing to do and the fact that you even do it part-time is amazing. So I am excited to get to know you even better and learn more about you.Right before we dive into your amazing story, we have Julie, of course, with the Review of the Week.Review of the WeekJulie: Okay. So we already know that I have this weird thing where sometimes I feel like I need to be a singer on the podcast this season. This season, I don’t know what you even call it. In this next review, I am not going to sing, but I really want to just sing because Carly is from Philadelphia. If you know what song is triggering in my mind right now from Philadelphia, I will not sing it. I have been trying to not because I think it is a little bit weird. I don’t want to be weird.I’m really weird. Oh my gosh. I’m weird. Oh my gosh. I’m so weird, you guys. Okay. But anyway, I am just going to read the Review of the Week while you guys can sing the song I am thinking about from Will Smith, and Philadelphia, and all that playground stuff where he spent most of his days. All right, so this review is from Kiley MoMy from Apple Podcasts and it is titled, “Listen If You Are Considering a VBAC.” She said, “My first child was born via emergency C-section and I felt very discouraged and afraid that my next birth could end up being a C-section again. I started listening to this podcast for information and what I got was so much more. The stories shared are so raw, emotional, and amazing. They helped me prioritize a supportive VBAC team, gave me the right questions to ask my providers, and filled me with confidence and knowledge to do what was best for me and my baby. My second child was born via VBAC and I am so grateful to The VBAC Link for helping me overcome the fears I had with my previous birth and helping me to prepare emotionally for my second birth however it turned out.”I love that review. Thank you so much, Kiley. Oh my gosh. All these warm and fuzzies are kind of making me tear up a little bit. I don’t realize, I think, how much I have missed that.Meagan: I know. I know. Yeah.Julie: If you are loving the podcast and you love having it back, we would love to hear from you. So please drop us a review on whatever podcast platform you are listening to. Actually, I think not very many of them you can leave reviews on, but you can leave one on Apple Podcasts for sure. You can go to Google. Just Google The VBAC Link and drop us a review there or you could leave us a review on Facebook because not a lot of people do that anymore.Meagan: That’s true.Julie: It’s so strange. We used to have a ton of Facebook reviews and then all of them kind of tapered off. But I feel like Facebook might be not prioritizing businesses in your newsfeed anymore. Maybe that’s a little bit why. But if you want to show us a little bit of love and show us how grateful you are for having the podcast back if you are, we would love to have a review in either one of these places. It definitely makes our day. My cheeks kind of hurt a little bit from smiling right now from all of this. So thanks so much again, Kiley MoMy, and thank you to everybody that has taken time out of their day to put a smile on our faces.Carly’s StoryMeagan: Okay. Let’s dive into Carly‘s story about her two beautiful girls. I am excited to hear both stories. We always say we are excited to hear the VBAC story, but we are also excited to hear your C-section stories too. We are excited to hear about those births because they matter just as much. So Carly, let us s turn the time over to you and talk about that. I’ll just turn the time over.Carly: Okay awesome. Thank you so much for having me. This is amazing. So I will start with my C-section story. I found out that I was pregnant in April 2018. I was finishing up student teaching. I was about to finish graduate school. I was applying for jobs, going on interviews, and putting together my portfolio and demo lessons, so it was a really chaotic time for me. It was stressful, but it was also really exciting. I was wrapping up one period of my life and starting another both in my personal life and my professional life.So I went into the following school year as a first-year teacher and a first-time mom. I was about five and a half months pregnant when I started a new job which was a little overwhelming.Julie: Yeah.Carly: Teaching can be overwhelming as it is, so it was a stressful couple of months. It was an exhausting couple of months for me. I had a normal, healthy pregnancy. I went into labor naturally with my first daughter. It was about nine days before my due date. I was at school and my water broke in the middle of the day. It wasn’t a huge rush. It was kind of like slow gushes throughout the day and I wasn’t having any contractions. I wasn’t even sure at first if it was my water that had broken. So I finished out the school day. I stayed after school for a couple of hours to put some things together for my substitute for the following week and then by the time I got home around 5:00- 5:30, the contractions had started.When they started, they were coming every couple of minutes, so I was having regular contractions once they started. I took a shower. My husband got home and I was like, “Listen, I think I am in labor. We should head to the hospital.” We stopped on the way for him to pick up something for dinner and then by that point, I had called my mom to tell her, “I am in labor. Come whenever you are done.” She was working. “Come whenever you are done with work.” I wanted her in the delivery room with me.At that point, on the way to the hospital, I was timing them. They were coming every three minutes. So I was like, “All right. I am in labor. This is good.” When we arrived at the hospital, that’s when things got a little crazy. We arrived at the hospital during a shift change and they didn’t know what to do with me, so they left me in a wheelchair in the waiting room. When I say they left me, I mean I was out there for about 40 minutes and no one ever really came to get me.Julie: Oh my gosh.Meagan: Good heavens.Carly: My husband had to go in twice. The first time, I thought I was going to be sick, so he went to see if someone could get me a bag or a trash can. The second time, it was like, “Hey. It’s been so much time. We are still out there. Is anyone going to come and get my wife?” They finally came and got me. They took me back to triage. They checked me. I was 6 centimeters. They admitted me. At that point, they gave me an ultrasound to make sure my baby was head down. I just remember my husband being like, “Look! There are her eye sockets. I can see her eye sockets. And I was so out of it that I didn’t see, but I remember him saying that. So at that point– it was a doctor who gave me the ultrasound– we knew that she was posterior. No one ever told me she was posterior. I didn’t really know that was a thing at that point, but you could see her eyesockets. She was face up.So the nurse was like, “All right. We will get you to your room. We will get you your epidural.” I was like, “Hang on a second. I don’t know if I want an epidural.” I had wanted to try to go unmedicated. During my labor class at the hospital, they told me that there were multiple methods of pain relief. They had a shower. You could use the gas or the birthing ball. What I didn’t know was that you had to ask for those things and not even just ask, you would have to fight to get those things. No one offered me any other options. It was like, “Get your epidural and stay in bed.” So that’s exactly what I did. I got my epidural. The anesthesiologist who gave me the epidural was a butt head to put it very nicely. He was really a whole series of expletives that I probably can’t say on your show, so I won’t. He yelled at me at one point. First, he came into the room. He didn’t even introduce himself. He yelled at me after as he was inserting the epidural because I was hunched over in the middle of a contraction. He yelled at me to lie down and when I didn’t, he grabbed me from behind both of my shoulders, / threw me on the bed, and then yelled at me again and was like, “I told you. You need to lay down.”Meagan: What?!!!Carly: And then he left the room.Julie: Whoa.Carly: And that was like—Julie: Expletive, expletive, expletive.Carly: Yeah, exactly.Julie: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh!Meagan: Oh my gosh.Carly: So it was at that point that I began to feel out of control of what was happening to me. I began to feel like, “This is not what I expected. This is not what I wanted for myself and my baby.” I felt like birth was happening to me. I wasn’t really a part of it. So I labored on my back with an epidural for a while. They brought me a peanut ball eventually. My nurse was amazing. It was freezing in the room. She brought me a couple of extra blankets and we found out later on that the thermostat in my room was set to probably about 44°. It was very cold and no one realized it. No one adjusted the thermostat. We just assumed it was normal.The doctor working was a doctor from my practice who I had never met. She was the only one I had never met and of course, she was the one who was on. So I labored. I dilated to 10 centimeters. I pushed for three hours. At one point in the middle of pushing, I was having really bad heartburn and I had asked a couple of different nurses, I had asked the doctor if I could have an antacid and no one acknowledged really that they had heard me. No one answered me. No one told me, “No. You are not allowed to,” or “We can’t give you that now.” No one came back with an antacid and at one point, they laid me flat on my back, and all the acid in my stomach came up, and I got sick all over the place.The doctor tried to use a vacuum. It didn’t work and at that point, she was like, “It’s been three hours. Nothing is happening.” My baby was still tolerating labor well, so I don’t really know. I guess it was just like, I was on the clock. Time is up. C-section. So they took me back for a C-section. The anesthesiologist there was much nicer and I let him know he was a lot nicer than the first one. They strapped down my arms. I got sick again and I was shaking just so hard. I couldn’t even hold my baby afterward.I remember just feeling totally out of control and just hating the fact that I felt totally out of control. No one explained to me what was going on. And afterward, I asked my doctor, “Hey, what happened? Was baby stuck?” She was like, “Yes. Baby was sunny-side-up and stuck in your pelvis.” I was kind of like, “We knew she was sunny-side-up. You didn’t know that?” I feel like looking back now, even if they had thought she was rotating during labor, at some point when I couldn’t get her out, it might have, I don’t know. This was my own personal– it might have helped for someone to be like, “Hey. Oh yeah. She’s posterior. Maybe we should try a different position where it is easier to get a posterior baby out.”Meagan: Yeah. Sometimes a provider can actually help turn a baby.Carly: Yes, yeah.Meagan: Like actually, manually from the inside. I know it sounds invasive and it is. It is, but they can actually help turn. There is a doctor here in Utah. It’s amazing. He will be like, “Okay, the baby is going to rotate this way.” And during pushing, he will rotate and baby will just be head down and come right underneath the pubic bone.Carly: Yeah. So it felt like there was no communication from when we came into the hospital to my doctor.Meagan: Yeah.Carly: So it felt afterward like I was devastated. I felt like I had been unheard during my stay at the hospital. I felt misled about needing a C-section. I felt like I wasn’t really an active participant in my birth. I wanted to know whether or not I could still have a vaginal birth after that, so I did some googling, and I had talked to my husband‘s cousin who had a C-section and was planning on having a VBAC for her next. She did, actually, five months after I had my C-section. So she was a really great resource to talk to. When I went for my six-week check-up, I had asked my doctor about it and she was like, “Yeah. If there are 18 months between deliveries, it’s no problem.” But a couple of months later, she left the practice, and then I wasn’t sure whether other doctors would still be supportive of that.So fast forward to a little over a year later, my husband and I started trying for baby number two in February 2020. I got pregnant in March 2020 about two weeks into our quarantine for COVID and I immediately began doing research. That’s when I discovered you guys and I listened to you every chance I got. My husband was still working at the time. He is a teacher so he was still working, but he was on a modified schedule. This was the first time they had ever tried to do virtual learning and he is in the city teaching, so a lot of the kids don’t have a computer. They don’t have access to the Internet. So he was available to help me around the house with the little one when I was in the first-trimester exhaustion and nausea.We had a lot of family time during quarantine which was really cool. I still had to go to all of my doctor's appointments alone and as a second-time mom, it was hard so I can’t even imagine first-time moms and what that was like to do that over COVID. I had this fear of COVID, but also still wanted to be social with friends and family after our quarantine had ended, so that was a conflicting time for me as far as trying to balance what was healthy for me and my baby while still wanting to celebrate my pregnancy with my family and my friends. That was a continual thing throughout the rest of my pregnancy. I was healthy. I had a healthy pregnancy. At my 20-week anatomy scan, they had said that my baby’s head had a lemon sign, which is when baby’s head looks like it is shaped like a lemon. It is characteristic of Spina Bifida. So they said they recommended that I go for a level II ultrasound. I was trying not to Google too much and trying to be positive about it. I was also concerned that my dreams of a VBAC might not be able to happen.I went to maternal-fetal medicine to get a level II ultrasound and I went by myself because I wasn’t allowed to have anybody else come with me.Meagan: Yeah.Carly: –which was super stressful. You know, there were other women who were there too and it was kind of like, “Hey. We are alone and in this together.”Meagan: We are in this together, yeah.Carly: My baby ended up being okay which was awesome and I became more determined to get my VBAC after that. I talked to my husband about switching to a midwife because I wasn’t totally sure that my provider was VBAC friendly. He wasn’t necessarily on board at first. I tried to show him a lot of research that I had done. Women all over the world every day give birth with midwives and I feel like we are one of the only, if not the only, countries where it has become so medicalized where the doctors are the ones primarily delivering babies.We talked to one of his former coworkers who had two home births with a midwife and I think she was really the one who helped convince him like, “Hey. Not only is it safe. It might be safer and you get that level of individualized care that you don’t necessarily get with an OBGYN.” So I went to my 24-week appointment with my OB with a list of questions to ask then I was like, “If they answer them the way I think they are going to answer them, they are not really VBAC-friendly.” I have you guys to thank for this because I think this is on one of your blog posts. This has been on your podcast and I have listened to about how to tell if your provider is VBAC tolerant versus VBAC supportive.Julie: Yeah. Yep. We talk about it all day.Carly: Yes. So my doctor answered questions like I thought she would. She started saying, “Well, if your baby isn’t too big,” and I was like, “Well, what qualifies as a big baby?” My first baby was a little over 8 pounds and she was like, “Yeah. Well, she was pretty big. So probably if baby is around the same size, we would recommend a repeat C-section.”Now, my sister and I were both over 11 pounds when we were born. My mother birthed us naturally, vaginally. So to me, 8 pounds is not a big baby. So that threw a red flag for me. There were a couple of other questions I asked that I was like, “That’s a red flag too.” So I went home and I emailed two groups of midwives that week. I had a couple of virtual interviews with them and I picked one that I really liked and I went to see them for my 28-week appointment. I also switched hospitals at that time, the hospital where I would birth that.My appointments went from about five minutes with my OB to 45 minutes with my midwife which was a huge change and I really felt that level of individualized care with them. I was still feeling a little unsure about whether I had made the right decision and I think it was the week I decided to make the change, I had watched the show Call the Midwife on Netflix. It is about a group of nuns who ran the Saint Raymond Nonnatus house.If you don’t know, I am Catholic. If you don’t know, Saint Raymond Nonnatus is the patron saint of midwives and women in labor. My husband had gotten me this daily reflection book for Catholic moms. Later that day, I picked up this book before I went to bed. I hadn’t read it in months and I opened to the day. It was August 31st and it just happened to be the feast day of Saint Raymond Nonnatus. That, for me, was confirmation that I was making the right choice. I had no doubts after that. I had made the right choice.Julie: That’s amazing.Carly: It was amazing. I also, at this time, started seeing a chiropractor. I started Hypnobirthing. I wanted to go fully unmedicated. I was doing Spinning Babies. I was walking every week. I was doing lots of squats. I had made affirmation cards. I read different books. I watched movies. I had a motivational birth song that I listened to which helped pump me up and get excited like, “I can do this. I can do this.” I did a lot of research on the labor process, labor positions, and different stations. I followed this woman on Instagram. Her Instagram account is Mamastefit and I think I found her on your podcast. I’m pretty sure you guys had her on your podcast.Meagan: Yes, Gina!Julie: We love her.Meagan: Gina, we love her. Carly: Yes. She’s amazing.Julie: She is amazing.Carly: I screenshotted a whole bunch of her labor stations, positions for labor if you know where baby is as baby comes through the pelvis, I had screenshotted all of these and printed them out and put them together in this birth binder I had where I had everything I would need to take to the hospital with me. I had my birth affirmations. I had ultrasound pictures. It was motivational but also informational. I didn’t know whether necessarily I would be able to use it during labor, but I thought at least for my husband, maybe, if he needed some help along the way. So during this time, I was looking forward to this pregnancy, my second pregnancy, being a lot less stressful than my first. I was a stay-at-home mom now. I wasn’t teaching anymore. We were living in the city in a duplex. With our neighbors upstairs, the living situation had gone from bad to worse. So we were like, “Let’s look for a house.” So we started househunting at the time. My husband was back to school in the fall, fully virtual. At this point, they had a set schedule, but he was working probably from sun up to sun down for months on end trying to adjust all of his lesson plans to be fully virtual, putting together things on the computer which is totally different than in-person teaching.I was taking care of our toddler. I was pregnant. I was doing all of the mortgage paperwork and looking at houses, and it was not any less stressful than my first pregnancy. We found a house in October. I was hoping to make settlement and move in before baby came. Baby was due in the middle of December. We made settlement the week before Thanksgiving and we found out that we weren’t going to be able to move until after Christmas. So I was really disappointed about that and unsure about moving with a newborn or potentially moving while having baby at the same time. Leading up to birth, I was having prodromal labor off and on all week. My contractions would start at night, run for a couple of hours, and then fizzle out. I went into labor actually the night before my due date. It was about 11:00 at night. I wasn’t sure whether this was real labor or not.So I started timing my contractions. They were about three to four minutes apart. I texted my midwife at maybe 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning and I was like, “Hey. My contractions are about four minutes apart. They texted me back and were like, “Okay. Just try to relax. Try to get some sleep if you can. Lay in the bath. Try not to think about it too much.” I couldn’t get comfortable laying down. I went out to the living room. We were decorated for Christmas, so I put on our Christmas lights. It was quiet. I had put on some music and I just focused on breathing and breathing and breathing. At some point, I got up and I had put on my tens unit which was amazing and really helped, and I went back to just breathing. The hours just flew by and before I knew it, it was about 5:00 in the morning. I remember checking the time and thinking to myself. I had read somewhere along the way that second labors average about six hours and I was like, “It’s been about six hours for me. Maybe I should wake my husband up and let him know that this isn’t false labor. This is really labor. Maybe we should head to the hospital.”The hospital where I was going to deliver was about 40 minutes away. I had to account for that and I wasn’t really sure when I should be leaving for the hospital. I hadn’t been in contact with my midwives since it was the middle of the night, so I wasn’t really sure how far apart my contractions should be or what they should feel like. Around this point, my husband got to the bathroom. He came out and he was like, “Okay. You’re in labor.” I was like, “Yes.” And he was like, “All right. I am going to email my principal. I am going to call your sister.” She was going to come and watch our toddler. I said, “All right. I’m going to jump in the shower real quick.” So I got into the shower. The water just felt so good and then all of a sudden, I felt the urge to push and I was like, “Oh boy. Okay. I was not expecting that.” But I just couldn’t move. The water felt so good. I just wanted to lay in it. Finally, I managed to crawl out of the tub. I was laying on the bathroom floor trying to call for him and he comes running. I am like, “I am pushing! We’ve got to go.” So he runs to get dressed. My poor sister– he called my sister in a panic and he was like, “Yeah. You need to get over here now.” She tried to start the car. There’s ice on the windshield. It was a whole process for her to get to our house.By the time I finally got dressed and had brushed my hair and made it to the front door, she was just coming into the house. And I guess by this point, it was probably around 7:00 in the morning. We’re getting ready to go. My husband calls my midwife and is like, “Hey. Carly is pushing. I don’t think we are going to make it to the hospital. It is 40 minutes away and with rush-hour traffic, it is probably going to be about maybe an hour and a half.” My midwife was like, “Okay. I can come to you guys. Do you want to try to go to a different hospital?” And my husband was like, “I am just going to take her to the closest hospital,” which I knew was the hospital where I had my C-section and I did not want to go there. I was like, “No. I don’t want to go there.” He was like, “We don’t really have a choice. We are not having this baby in the car on the highway on the way to the hospital.”So we got in the car. I ran out the door in between contractions. I ran out the door without my phone. I ran out the door without shoes. I had my hairbrush and my glasses in my hand which were the two things I chose to bring to the hospital with me. My husband had already packed the car. We got there. I jumped out and they took me to the hospital. At the hospital where I was originally supposed to give birth, COVID restrictions for the winter were that when you go into the hospital, you bring everything in with you because you weren’t allowed to leave once you were in including baby‘s car seat. So my husband starts trying to grab everything out of the car to come in and they told him, “Oh no, no, no, no. You are not allowed up yet. They will call down when they are ready for you.” So they took me up by myself and I didn’t have my phone. He had my phone and he was like, “How is she going to call me?” He had my phone. So they took me up. I had about five people ask me on the way. I go in and I am like, “Hey, I am pushing. Baby is coming.” “Have you given birth?” “Yes. I was here. I had a C-section.” “Okay. So you’re having another C-section?” I was like, “No. I am pushing. Baby is coming out.” I had about five different people ask me if I was having another C-section which I thought was ridiculous. And I was all alone in there by myself trying to tell them that, “No. Baby is coming. I am not consenting to a C-section. I am having a VBAC.”Julie: My gosh.Carly: “--and I’m going to push this baby out.” I felt like as soon as I walked in, they put me on the clock. It was like, “You know, we will give you so much time until you have a C-section.”Meagan: Right.Carly: They checked me. I was at a zero station which at this point, I knew what that meant. One of the doctors asked me if I was having an epidural. She said, “Were you planning on having an epidural?” I was like, “No.” And then she laughed at me and she was like, “Good because you are too late.” I was like, “Thank you. Why did you ask me?”Meagan: Then why did you even ask?Julie: Okay. Thank you. Carly: Exactly. Exactly. They finally let my husband up after I was in the delivery room. One of the nurses was talking about a C-section and it felt so good to finally have him because then he could advocate for me. He was like, “No. We are not doing that. She’s having a VBAC.” I had wanted to push in certain positions and I wasn’t making faster progress for them, so of course, I ended up on my back, but I had learned from Gina that if you do push on your back, roll up a towel and put it under your lower back. So I asked them at some point, “Hey, can you put a rolled-up towel under my lower back?” They did and I felt like that gave me more room to get the baby out. They gave me a mirror. I remember looking and seeing the top of her head and being like, “I think she might be face-up,” but I wasn’t sure. When I did push her out, I found out that she was born sunny-side-up.Julie: Wow.Carly: Which for me, I feel totally vindicated because that was the issue I had with my first one. She was sunny-side-up and I couldn’t get her out. So to actually push this baby out felt so amazing to me. I got my skin-to-skin. I had asked the doctor if we could wait to cut the cord. She said to my husband, “Do you want to cut the cord?” And I said, “Hey, can we wait a little bit?” And she just looked at me and she was like, “It’s been two minutes. How long do you want to wait?”Julie: Oh my gosh. What a peach.Carly: Right? And then at that point, the placenta had found its way out. My husband cut the cord. I was just so happy that none of that stuff even mattered to me anymore. I let it all go. So that’s pretty much it. To add to all of that craziness, we moved two weeks later when my baby was just born. To be finally in our house, in our own space, and to get settled in has just been amazing. We have been here for a little over a year. If it’s up to me, I will never give birth at the hospital again. If I have another baby, I will absolutely pursue a homebirth. I won’t give birth in a hospital again unless I absolutely have to. I have heard horror stories that are way worse than anything I have gone through.Meagan: But still, from being thrown on beds, being harassed and asked multiple times if you are doing something that you are clearly not—Carly: Exactly.Meagan: Being like, “Well, isn’t that long enough?” I can understand why where you would be coming from because you haven’t been treated the best. You haven’t had the best experience personally.Carly: No. Yeah, no. Not at all.Meagan: Yeah.Julie: Absolutely. I understand that. That’s why I had home births. It’s really interesting. I was going to read a review on this episode but I couldn’t find it, so I read a different one. I think I am going to read it on the next episode that we do because it is really interesting. It’s actually from a labor and delivery nurse. It talks about how sometimes people who have had a previous Cesarean have an overall mistrust of hospitals, doctors, the system, interventions, and everything like that. She has a really good point because a lot of OBs and nurses really want what is best for you, but then there are experiences like this when there’s just complete lack of respect. Clearly, there is a big reason why a lot of parents are learning and being taught to distrust the system. They are being pushed out of the hospital and feel like they have no other option to be respected except for having a homebirth.Now, we know that homebirth is a safe and reasonable option for low-risk parents. There have been lots of studies that have come out in recent years showing that there is no increase in safety for parents and babies for low-risk parents. Of course, there are times when it is medically necessary for both mom and baby‘s health for babies to be born in a hospital, but the overall mortality rates and health issues for low-risk women and their babies born out-of-hospital are similar between hospital and home birth. I use the word “pushed” out of a hospital system to homebirth, but a lot of parents feel that they don’t have a choice to be respected except for giving birth at home. That’s not good. That’s not good at all. I obviously am a huge advocate for a homebirth, but I want people to feel supported where ever they choose to birth and a hospital birth should be a great option. Homebirth should be a great option too. It is a great option. Both are great as long as you have a trusted space that you feel safe in. You should absolutely feel safe wherever you give birth.The reality of our days is that a lot of women are not feeling respected and safe in a hospital birth. Now there are a lot of really incredible hospitals and really incredible providers and nurses all over the country that are working to make the space safer for birthing families, but we still have a long ways to go.Meagan: We do. We are coming there. We are slowly coming. But I also can relate. After my two C-sections, I chose a birth center birth with a midwife and I don’t think I would have had the same experience the whole time, but I also think it really was a big part of my provider. My provider was someone that could be there for me all the time and I didn’t have all of those different people coming in, asking me different things, and trying to do different things. It was really nice because honestly, I could hardly focus on even getting the baby out let alone anything else going on. So yeah. It’s just important to have a good plan and know who you want to go to. I don’t blame you at all for wanting to experience a home birth. Plus it sounds like–Julie: It sounds like you are a great candidate. I’m all for that.Meagan: Yeah. Trying to get in the icy car, traveling–Carly: All too much work.Meagan: All of that work when you probably could have just honed in and probably had a baby pretty quickly, yeah.Carly: Yeah.Meagan: Yeah. Well, thank you so much. I am so proud of you. We did. We talked about advocacy last week and everything, but I mean really, it sucks. I am sorry that you had to experience it like that, being alone. COVID just sucked. It just sucked. I hate it. I hate what it has done to so many people. We have so many emails in our inbox from people who have experienced trauma and things like that from being left alone. It was a disservice to mental health in so many ways.Carly: Yes.Meagan: I’m sorry that you had to be in that place, but I’m also really happy for you.Carly: But you know what? Thanks to you guys, you kept me informed about options and my rights so that I had the confidence to stand up for myself and be like, “No. This is what I want and I’m going to get it.”Meagan: Yeah. Yeah.Julie: We are proud of you. We are proud of you for taking the time to gain that knowledge and confidence and putting in the work because it clearly paid off. There were still a lot of things that did not go the way you wanted, but I am proud of you for taking that time and getting that confidence, and doing the work because not everybody does that. Not everybody does that.Carly: No, thank you. I feel like for most doctors and nurses in the hospital, it’s routine for them. They see birth every day. They do C-sections every day. But for us, the first time I became my mom was literally a once-in-a-lifetime experience for me and I felt like that had been stepped on for so many different reasons. The second time around, I was like, “I am going to fight for this.” I had a determination. I had a fire in my belly about it. I was informed. I felt confident. I felt confident enough to walk in there and be like, “I know I have the right to say no to you,” instead of just agreeing to whatever they recommended for me. And to have that confidence was pretty empowering. I went in there feeling pretty empowered to be able to stand up for myself. And I am a people pleaser by nature. I am not one to try to ruffle any feathers or rock the boat. So for me, it was huge. It was huge to be like, “I can go in there and I can advocate for myself and my baby and not care what anybody has to say to me about it.”Julie: Yeah. Get it, girl. That’s what I like to hear. We love that. I love that. That’s speaking my language all day long.Meagan: Mhmm.Julie: Oh, awesome. Well again, we are really proud of you and we know that you are going to inspire a lot of people because sometimes, you just need to hear that other people do this too and that it’s okay. It kind of gives you permission to do it for yourself.Carly: Mhmm, yeah. Yeah.Julie: Not that you need permission, but it feels good to know that you are not alone.Carly: Sure.Julie: You’re not the first one to do this and you’re not going to be the last one to do it.Carly: For sure.Julie: So we are again super grateful for you for coming on and sharing your experience with us and with everybody else who is listening right now.Carly: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. This has been amazing. You guys are amazing. The work you do changes lives. It really does, so we appreciate what you do.Julie: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much.ClosingInterested in sharing your VBAC story on the podcast? Submit your story at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Did you know that in South African private hospitals, where patients are better cared for, the C-section rate is 76%?! Joining us today all the way from South Africa is our friend, Danielle. She shares how she became part of that C-section statistic with her first birth, but also how she refused to let those numbers define her second birth. Though she fought an uphill battle, Danielle’s successful VBAC was an achievement that changed the course of her life. Her strength has paved the way for others in her area to no longer become a statistic and to no longer fear natural birth. Additional linksNatural Birth With Great Expectations MidwivesHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Julie: Welcome, welcome. You are listening to The VBAC Link podcast with Julie and Meagan and we have a really special guest for you today. This is episode number 186. We have Danielle with us and Danielle is from South Africa. She had her C-section and her VBAC in South Africa. We were just chitchatting before we started recording the podcast. There are private and public hospitals and in the private hospitals, which is where you get the best care, the C-section rate is 76%. 76%!Meagan: It’s so crazy to me. The crazy thing is that it’s where you get better care, but then–Julie: –where you are treated better, I know.Meagan: Yeah.Julie: In public hospitals, the C-section rate is 24%. When you combine those two together– I mean, I guess it just depends on the population density that is giving birth in each of the hospitals and so I guess I can’t really come up with an overall rate there for the country. Maybe Danielle knows when she will share her story with us. But that is very, very large. Danielle had quite the battle to fight during her pregnancies, births, and deliveries, but we are going to go ahead and let her share that with you after Meagan reads a Review of the Week for us.Review of the WeekMeagan: Okay. This is from Brittany and it was actually on Instagram. She sent us a message on Instagram. It says, “Meagan and Julie, I just wanted to thank you for your amazing podcast. I just had the VBAC of my dreams a few days ago and honestly could not have done it without the encouragement of you guys and the women who share their stories. I was hesitant in wanting a VBAC going into my second pregnancy, but you guys gave me the confidence to do it.”Crazy enough, we just got a message today from someone saying, “I am super hesitant. I had a C-section with my first. I didn’t progress past a 3, so my provider is telling me I am not a good match for a VBAC. I don’t know what to do. Is that possible? What do I do?” And that is exactly what this podcast does. It does. It empowers you. It encourages you. It educates you to make the best decision whether it be a repeat C-section or a vaginal birth. So congratulations, Brittany, on your VBAC. We are so happy that this amazing podcast and we could help you. If you guys have had an experience or anything like that with the podcast, we would love to hear it. Feel free to do Apple Podcasts or like I said, Instagram, or Facebook. Send us a message. We would love to read your review on the podcast someday.Julie: I love that so much. I just want to say that whenever people say, “Oh yeah. Your podcast empowered me” or whatever, I will be like, “Well, you had the empowerment in you all along. We may have helped you discover it and open it up a little bit, but you need to own that. You were empowered. You did it You took charge. We might have helped you discover that along the way, but give yourself some credit too because you are pretty awesome.” That’s what I think every time I hear that. It’s pretty cool. I love all of our listeners and I love everybody that takes the time to leave a review, especially. So like Meagan said, if you have felt like the podcast has helped you on your journey, please drop us a review on Apple Podcasts, Google, or on Facebook. We would love to hear from you.Danielle’s StoryJulie: All right. All right. All right. I am really excited and we know that Danielle is really excited to share her story with us as well. So Danielle from South Africa, we are really excited to have you on. Danielle is a busy mom of two little boys and she is an English teacher. She teaches English to foreign learners all over the world online. I think that is a really fun thing to do. I bet you have a lot of stories on that side of things too. But why don’t you come on and share your stories with us about your births?Danielle: Hi. Yes, thank you. Thank you so much for having me here. Okay well, I guess I will jump right in and share a little bit about my first birth. I had a really healthy pregnancy. I carried to about 40+5 weeks, so quite a long pregnancy there. The first sign of labor was my waters breaking. In a flurry, we rushed immediately to the hospital. I had lost my bloody show. I was pretty much hooked up immediately to monitors. They confirmed I was having mild contractions. I was in early labor. This was in the night and I kind of went to sleep and thought I’d be woken up by excruciating contractions, but I wasn’t. So by the morning, labor hadn’t progressed at all. I was given antibiotics because of the membranes rupturing, and then taken to the labor ward basically and given Pitocin to open the labor. The contractions got stronger, but they were pretty manageable. When they did an internal, they saw that I wasn’t dilating. I was 2 centimeters.The baby went into fetal distress and I ended up in an emergency C-section. It’s not an uncommon thing, this story. But yeah. It left me feeling rather upset and I definitely just did not want it to go down that way. So almost immediately after I gave birth– this was probably two months after the birth– I came across the option of a VBAC. You know, when you are on maternity leave with a baby laying on your chest all day long, you discover these things. I found an amazing Facebook group and started following along, picking up all of the terms, some advice, and key providers, and I got really into it. I knew this was what I wanted to do for the next baby. When I got pregnant a few years later, it wasn’t exactly a planned pregnancy. It was a little bit of a surprise, being COVID and locked up is not really an ideal situation for a pregnancy, but nevertheless, it was a happy surprise. I knew immediately that I had a lot of preparation to do. Not just physically, but mentally and emotionally because I had this dream of a VBAC that was now a reality and I knew it was time to go to work.The first thing I did was I contacted a doula who was recommended by a friend of mine. She was pretty shocked because I called her when I was only seven weeks pregnant. She said to me, “What are you doing calling me so early?” But she was amazing and she gave me some recommendations. I immediately started interviewing OBs and very quickly started to distinguish between a VBAC-friendly and VBAC-tolerant OB. I realized that unless the stars were going to perfectly align, I just wasn’t going to get my VBAC in a hospital. I just knew that.So I met with Sarah and Elrika who are the midwives of Great Expectations. They are the VBAC dream team. As it is in South Africa, there is quite a stigma around natural birth. Going the midwife birthing center route is considered a little bit reckless and kind of like, “The hippies do it”. It is not really a common thing. So I was a little bit hesitant, but yeah. I went to meet with them. I also met with an OB who is very well known for being VBAC supportive. But still, I had some reservations. I was still very much afraid because we really are conditioned here to believe that natural birth is a scary thing. It’s not a safe thing here. That’s what we are taught.But I knew this time it was different because I knew if I wasn’t happy with my caregivers that I would change the setup. But after every appointment with this team and with these people, I just felt more and more confident and definitely more at ease with my decision. I knew that I was surrounding myself with a really supportive VBAC team.And then I was referred by my midwives to a really wonderful woman called Sally. She is a birth counselor and just an all-around wonderful therapist. I still have session with her today just to deal with all of the struggles of motherhood. We spent about nine months working together because from the outside looking in, everything seemed fine in my first birth and it was okay physically, but emotionally, I was traumatized. I really, really was. So working with Sally was such a big part of the preparation for me. It was so empowering for me because I had to face a lot of heavy stuff. It was a lot of internal work. I really am so grateful that I was able to do that and have that resource because I know there are not a lot of women who do have that available to them. So we made really huge leaps forward, her and I. And of course, there were lots of speed bumps along the way. Even right until the end of the pregnancy, there were some speed bumps, but it was really important for me to get over this trauma. Apart from that in terms of the VBAC preparation, like I said, I was all in. I left no stone unturned. I went to an osteopath regularly. I did pelvic floor physio. Spinning Babies, I did that. I read birthing books. I read The Mama Bamba Way of Childbirth. I don’t know if it’s available in the states, but my doula recommended that one, and a bit of Spiritual Midwifery.I was listening to Solfeggio Frequencies on pain relief and did Epsom salt baths by candlelight. I was also even thinking of intentional things like, “Let me choose a candle that has a beautiful scent that I’m going to use in my birth,” and just holding up those resources that I could use in the birth. And then, educating myself. I was reading Evidence Based Birth articles. I watched the documentaries like The Business of Giving Birth.And then of course, at two months in, I came across your podcast. That, for me, also became such a huge part of my therapy. For about seven months, I would walk three to four times a week listening to the podcast, laughing and crying. I resonated so much with these stories because these women, what they were saying and the things they were feeling, they were my feelings too, so it was really such an important part of this journey for me.So I guess then fast forward to the VBAC itself. This pregnancy was no different. It was very healthy, thank goodness, and I carried quite late. I was about 40+6 when he arrived. We went into isolation about two weeks before the due date because this was the COVID protocol, and then for a few days, I was starting to lose my mucus plug a little bit. Then one night, I started having some contractions late at night. They were not that strong. I could sleep through them. But I remember it was a Monday morning at 6:00 a.m. when I woke up and they were still there. You just know in your body like, “Okay, something is really happening now.”So I told my husband, Dane, and he took our son Max to school. He came home and we got ready because we actually had an appointment with our midwives, just a routine checkup. They knew what was going down. They said, “Come through. Let’s just have them look.” We went there. They were happy with how everything was going and they said, “Well, there is no need for you to check into the birth center right now. Go home and let labor take its course.” And I really wasn’t sure. I mean, “Should I be walking up and down the halls trying to get this going?” Both of them and my doula said, “It’s going to happen how it’s going to happen. The best thing you can actually do is just rest and chill.” And so that’s what I did. I lay in bed all day. I watched movies. I ate. I drank. I slept and the contractions were steadily there keeping me company all throughout the day. And I was just excited, really, because it felt so different than the first labor already. My husband was around. I told him to let the family know that things were going down. I was very specific about this though because I didn’t really want anyone sending me messages or calling me because as it is, I am such a highly strung, anxious person. I am always in my head and I just knew that the pressure and those questions were going to derail me. It was almost like that big match temperament. I needed to go inside this bubble and just get my head right. So that’s what I did. I stayed in this bubble all day radio silent basically.My mom came over around lunchtime. She was going to stay with Max when we were going to the birth center. By the evening, things were definitely intensifying. I went home and we were going downstairs and having some dinner with the family. I will never forget that it was chicken soup. I always think to myself, “What a fantastic pre-birth meal that was.” And then the midwives told me to get into the bath for about an hour and time contractions. So that’s what I did. Again, using the same candles, the same music, the same space, and just resourcing on that safe space that I created throughout my whole pregnancy was really, really helpful I think.So my husband was putting Max to bed and my mom was with me while I was in the bath. We spoke a little bit just about random things, and we just sat beside each other. I squeezed her hand through all of the contractions. I have to say because I think it’s a rule of thumb that you don’t really have your mom around when you’re in labor for various reasons, but I do have to say that it was such an unplanned thing, and it was such a lovely moment that we were able to have together for her to just be with me during this part of the labor. It was really, really special.And then, yes. The contractions were really strong at this point. Definitely, I was in active labor. So we called the midwives and told them that we were ready to come. We were on the way. And at this point, I could really barely get down the stairs. It was really tough to even walk. So my mom helped us get loaded in the car. I was in the backseat and I just remember feeling that shift. My moans and groans were getting louder. Dane was playing my VBAC playlist that I had created with all my feel-good songs and he was trying to amp me up, and I don’t think I heard any of it. I was just in another zone.When we got there, we were checked into our room. It was so beautiful and so different than the bright lights of a hospital room. It’s crazy. I had to do an internal upon arrival. I really told my midwives that I didn’t want any unnecessary interventions or internals, but that’s when I knew I had to do it, so I was prepared for it. It was really painful by the way. I couldn’t actually believe how painful it was. We also had agreed that I didn’t want to know how far along I was or how many centimeters I was dilating in case it would also derail me or discourage me. When Sarah, my midwife, finished the internal, she said, “Do you want to know how many centimeters?” And that, for me, was just everything because it was like she was really talking to me, not at me, which was what I had experienced before. I have so much respect for her for that. Really, I do. I said, “I only want to know if it’s good news.” She smiled and said, “You are 6 centimeters.” I was so pumped.Julie: Yay!Danielle: It was so electrifying. It was really wonderful. And this was about 9:00 in the evening more or less at this time. So I lay there. My doula was there. Dane was setting up the room so beautifully getting the candles and the same music. Everything was familiar which was really, for me, what I needed. I lay on my side. That was the position I was most comfortable in, my left side. He read the birth affirmations to me that I prepared. They were filling the birthing bath as things were intensifying because I definitely needed something to help with the pain. The whole time, Dane was quite hesitant at the beginning of this whole process to have a doula in the first place and I am so glad that we did, and I think he was so glad we did because she drew him in in such a way that made him such a special part of this. She showed him things that I think he wouldn’t have known and wouldn’t have noticed. I mean, how could you? He’d never been to a birth before. Things like when I was leaning over the bed and I don’t know what it’s called, but there’s a little bulge that appears in the lower back where you almost see the baby descending in the mom‘s pelvis. Just amazing things like that that she was able to show him which was really, really amazing.So yeah. I was told to empty my bladder before I got in the birthing bath. Again, it was so painful to even walk to the toilet and walk into the birthing bath. But I got in there and my doula just helped me through all of those contractions. I’ll never forget, she kept telling me to open up my palms and not to clench them. It’s quite an interesting thing going through these contractions and just remembering to keep my palms open. It was there that I really felt that transcendence. The one thing I didn’t do was a Hypnobirthing course, but I read about it. It wasn’t something I was aiming for, but I went into this really trance-like state. I really did. There were moments when Dane said to me– my eyes were closed pretty much the entire time– but there were moments when I would look at him and he said that it was like I was looking at him but I couldn’t see him. My eyes were glazed over. That was such an added bonus for me because again, being such an anxious person, to be able to achieve that level of trance state was amazing and wonderful.I couldn’t get it right in the birthing bath. I couldn’t get into a good position. The contractions were coming hard and fast at this point. I even remember saying to Sarah, the midwife, “Can you give me something for the pain? Or is there anything you can give me?” and I think she said, “Darling, I want to do another internal before I give you anything.” I think I just scoffed at her because the thought of having another internal, I was like, “Uh no. No way. I will just deal with it.”So we continued with no medication at all. She couldn’t really get a good reading of the baby at this stage, so I think they wanted me out of the birthing tub. It was just before I went out that the urge to push just hit me. Like, oh my goodness. It roared out of me and it was just this force that there was no stopping it. I just could not even believe how strong this urge was. But I got out of the birthing bath. I got onto the bed on my side again. I remember my doula whispering in my ear, “Okay. Just listen very carefully to everything Sarah is going to tell you and follow her instructions, okay?” I said, “Okay. I’m going to try.” I was in so much pain at this point. That urge to push just kept coming and coming and my midwife, her procedure or her method is quite slow and controlled. She tries to do it in such a way that is a bit slower but my goodness, that force was like it was bigger than me. I remember also that my doula, Liz, was saying, “Okay. Don’t worry about keeping your palms open now. You clench. You bite. You do whatever you have to do to bear down.” My poor husband got the brunt of it. I was clenching his neck, poor guy.I remember that my hands were flailing above my head and both Sarah and Liz said to me, “Grab the inside of your thigh” or “Grab the back of your knee and pull your head down. Pull that energy downwards,” and my goodness, that made such a difference. I pushed. I think it was about 40 minutes of pushing.Meagan: That’s not very long.Danielle: Not long at all. I know women in hospitals are sometimes told, “Don’t push yet. Let’s wait for the doctor,” and that was impossible.Meagan: Yes.Danielle: I could not have stopped it even if I tried. I really couldn’t. He came out and I was so excited that I reached down and I grabbed him. The midwife was grabbing him and I was grabbing him, and I pulled him out and obviously wanted to put him on my chest. He had quite a short umbilical cord, so I think he only got to my stomach. But yeah. Then he lay there. Thank goodness, he didn’t need any extra medical attention. The energy in the room was just so incredible. As I was getting cleaned up, we were all just talking, laughing, and crying. I think when you go through an experience like that with people– we’d been building this relationship throughout the pregnancy, but once you go through that moment, there’s just this unspeakable connection that’s created between you, the midwife, and the doula. It’s really, really special.Meagan: Absolutely.Danielle: I remember once they had weighed him and I had a little rinse in the shower, I was lying skin-to-skin with him and Dane grabbed my face. I remember he kissed me and he said to me, “You did it. You did it.”Meagan: Aww.Danielle: He said, “I just want you to remember this moment right now. If ever there is something difficult or something you feel like you can’t do, I just want you to remember that you did this.” I don’t think he realizes how impactful that’s been for me because it was such a huge hurdle to get through and I do. I think about how over the past year because it’s almost been a year since the VBAC, and going through any tough time when I have this uphill battle, I do. I think back on those words, and what he said, and that experience and I let it fill me up, that feeling, because it’s truly one of the most incredible experiences I have ever had, really.Meagan: That is so amazing. I love it so much and I love that he could say that. Like, “I want you to think about this and remember,” because it is. It’s such an incredible moment. When you say that you go through all these experiences leading up to having the baby and then you have the baby and it’s so much deeper. For me, my team, and the people that were with me that day, there are no words that describe how grateful I am for them and how much I love them and cherish them. I’m sure you will feel the same way forever. It’s so special and it’s so awesome to hear that you had such a great experience.Danielle: Thank you.Julie: Yes.Meagan: Yes.Danielle: It was amazing.Cesarean Rates in South AfricaMeagan: So I wanted to talk about a little bit at the beginning where we talked about how high Cesarean rates are. When you described your experience, I feel like you said this or maybe I said it in my head, but you were like, “This was not abnormal. This wasn’t uncommon.” It’s hard to hear that because it sucks. It sucks that it’s not that uncommon. I hope that over time we cannot just be The VBAC Link, but that the world can make these experiences better because obviously, your body was very, very capable of having a vaginal birth.But yeah. I wanted to talk about some of the main reasons why a Cesarean should happen. Sometimes, Cesareans are very valid. They are very valid and we are grateful for Cesareans. But there are a lot of times when there are things that are said or done and it leaves questions.But I wanted to talk about some of the biggest reasons why a Cesarean may happen. One of them is failure to progress. The cervix isn’t changing, the baby is not coming down, those types of things. It could be for a whole bunch of different reasons– being induced too early, overwhelming the body and not responding, scar tissue on the cervix, baby, and waters breaking early and maybe not coming down, those types of things. And then there are fetal heart problems where our babies’ heart rates aren’t in a safe zone anymore, so the best case is to have a Cesarean. Malpresentation or breech, meaning baby is not in the best position. On a podcast that we did just a week or so ago, she talked about how they confirmed right when they got there that the baby was OP, but then no one ever said anything about it the entire time, and then she pushed for three hours and they were like, “Oh, you have to have a C-section. Your baby is posterior.” And I am curious. I wish I could observe. I wished I could have come there and observed some of this birth to see what their reasons were and where they fit into these.Based off of friends, what are some of the biggest reasons why people are having C-sections in your area?Danielle: Yeah. Well, I am so glad you brought this up. This is such a big thing that I wanted to discuss because it’s happening so much here in South Africa. Even moms that I know have reached out to me because they know that I had a VBAC and they recently had emergency C-sections. They didn’t want them. They were led to believe it was the safer and better option and they were like, “Why has this happened to me?” So this is such a big part of why I want to share my story too. I really hope I can reach some people.So maybe just to give you a bit more background about what is going on in South Africa, you mentioned the C-section rates. A lot of women are actually having elective C-sections in South Africa. A lot of it is due to planning. They want to control the delivery date and a lot of this is based on fear and fearmongering by care providers. I mean honestly, we are led to believe C-sections are safer and better than natural birth. I mean, I heard on a couple of occasions women saying, “Oh, if you have a natural birth, you could really cause some brain damage to your child.”Meagan: Oh!Danielle: Honestly, this is our culture and I’m not even kidding. These are the conversations that I have been hearing and there’s just so much misinformation about natural birth. Because we have perpetuated this culture of fear, it’s taking over. It’s being overused. It’s been overprescribed for sure. Elective C-sections are even often routine to women, to mothers in their OB appointments. A lot of this has got to do especially with the insurance environment that OBs are working in and I am referring to the medical-legal costs which are extremely high in South Africa if you’re in the private sector. This is definitely having a big influence on intrapartum decision making. There are even so many OBs who are going out of practice and only offering gynecological services, not even deliveries. Another big problem is there is such a lack of properly trained staff. There is a huge shortage of trained and qualified midwives in South Africa. Laboring patients in the hospital are often cared for by general nursing staff, not qualified midwives. OBs are getting so scared because of the high level of litigation that they are covering every base. They are covering every base. They are doing every test. Just to give you an idea, in my first pregnancy that was led by an OB, I had about 12 to 14 ultrasounds. 12 to 14.Meagan: Woah.Danielle: With the midwife, I had about 5 or 6. Just to give you an idea of how they are just putting everything on record. They don’t want to miss a thing or miss a beat. I mean, it’s standard now to have a test for gestational diabetes without any history of diabetes. So it’s really, really interesting what is going on, I have to say. And a lot of the gynies– I know you call them OBs, sorry– we call them gynies.Meagan: It’s okay. They’re gynecologists too.Danielle: There we go. A lot of them, even though they themselves are pro-natural birth, they are operating in hospitals that have stringent protocols in place that are saying– in the hospital that I gave birth in the first time, I heard through the grapevine they are no longer doing natural births. They will not. They will not. They’re only doing C-sections. I don’t know how, but this is what I heard. I was digging around.So what’s happening is, you know we talk a lot about interventions during birth and this cascade of interventions, but there are also a lot of interventions that are happening during pregnancy leading up to the birth. I’m talking about the kind of things that start to play on your emotions, like almost playing mind games with you. They really are. I mean, I know that I am, like I said, a typical case. My gynie was so pro-natural. Everything was cool. Nothing was wrong the whole pregnancy, and then the bait-and-switch started. That’s what we call it, the bait-and-switch. You know, you start hearing things like, “The placenta is calcifying. Baby is not moving or descending. There are no signs of labor.” Again, routinely now, women are having internals done at 37 weeks pregnant. Something I didn’t know at the time.Meagan: Is that an internal ultrasound?Danielle: No, just an—Meagan: Oh, a cervical exam.Danielle: Cervical exam, yeah.Meagan: Okay.Danielle: And of course, at that stage, do you expect any cervical changes at 37 weeks? Not really. You are not full term, you know? You are not full term. So those things start to discourage you like, “Oh no. Nothing is happening. Oh, maybe I am not going to go into labor or things are not right.” We’ve seen it. I have heard this in so many different forms where they say that giving birth is like making love for a woman. It’s the feeling that she has to feel, the state of being she has to be in physiologically, mind, body, and soul to relax, give in, and let her body just be. And when your mind is being played in such a way, you can’t get there. You cannot get there. That’s exactly what happened to me. My body, I know, didn’t do what it needed to do because it didn’t feel safe to do so. It didn’t feel safe. I was very afraid and I know that this is happening to so many women. It’s quite a thing I have to say that’s going on here. It’s really, really quite a thing.Meagan: It’s so interesting. It reminds me so much of Brazil. I mean, in different ways. They have different reasons why they do C-sections there because that’s actually a sign of wealth which is crazy, right? It’s a sign of wealth to have a C-section in Brazil from what we have been told.Danielle: That’s crazy.Meagan: It’s so crazy.Julie: Yeah, of privilege and being like you have enough money for people to take care of you, so you don’t need to bother by–Meagan: –having a vaginal birth.Julie: –going through all of the trouble of having a vaginal birth. It’s just a cultural mindset shift.Meagan: Yeah. It’s fascinating to me. It really is. Like you said, I wonder how these docs are getting away with just scheduling C-sections, especially for first-time moms that have no previous C-sections. It’s disheartening to hear and hopefully like I said, they will come around and one day here we will see a shift in the medical system.Danielle: I really hope so. And you know, I think that is why– I mean, a VBAC is not a common thing in South Africa because as you said in the beginning, you are working against the system. You really are working against it. But you know, as with any system, there are cracks in the system. You have got to find them, you have got to work around them, and you have got to fight to get the birth experience that you want because the odds are not in your favor, unfortunately. But I think the more women who push for it and fight for it, then the more we can normalize natural birth in this country.Meagan: Yep. Yeah. Well, it sounds like you are going to be a bigger impact than you even know in your community and I am so grateful that all of the people in your community have you. We are so grateful for your story and I am hopeful that people will listen to this and feel like they can find the tools that they need to get a birth that they deserve and that they want.Julie: Yeah. I absolutely love that. We appreciate you for sharing your story. It was incredible. We love the journey and my goodness, all the way around the world in South Africa. It’s incredible. We appreciate you for being here with us today.Danielle: Thank you so much. This was great.ClosingInterested in sharing your VBAC story on the podcast? Submit your story at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

You’ve researched, prepared, and achieved your VBAC, but now what? We are diving deep into all things postpartum today with New Boss Mom, Kallista Anderson. Kallista shares her expertise with us on how to thrive during the postpartum period.Topics include:Strengthening your relationshipsKallista’s number one postpartum tipInvesting in yourselfWarning signs and resources for postpartum depression Continue advocating for your needs even after your baby is born. You deserve to enjoy this season and your baby deserves to have the best version of yourself!  Additional linksNew Mom Boss Kallista AndersonPrepping For Postpartum WorkshopMeal Train WebsiteEdinburgh Postnatal Depression ScalePostpartum Support InternationalHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Happy Wednesday, everybody. I am so excited today to talk about postpartum. Julie and I have partnered up with Kallista Anderson who, if you don’t already know, you should know. She has her podcast, The New Mom Boss Podcast, and she is amazing. She is helping mamas get through all the things by preparing, self-care, creating a good space, learning about postpartum, and coaching all the things. So today, we are going to be talking with her about postpartum and a few different types of things about postpartum: navigating through relationships in postpartum and then also prepping for after and being prepared. Before we do that, I am going to turn over the time to Julie, and then we are going to dive right in because I think this is such an important topic that honestly isn’t talked about enough.Review of the WeekJulie: Yeah. I’m excited too. Postpartum, my goodness. We don’t talk about that enough here and society doesn’t talk about it as much just generally. So we are glad to have Kallista here with us today. Our review today comes from Apple Podcasts and it is from jenh415. She says, “I don’t feel alone in this journey anymore.” Her review says, “I started planning my VBAC two years ago right after I had my son. My Cesarean left me with lots of negative feelings and thoughts about myself and birth in general. I just knew that I needed to have a chance to have my dream birth. I found your podcast at almost 14 weeks pregnant–” and she is now 18 weeks. Oh, this was left in July. Let’s see. “--and immediately dove in headfirst. When I first started listening, I couldn’t make it through five minutes of an episode without bawling my eyes out. With the help of my midwife and your empowering podcast, I now feel like I am headed in the right direction. Being able to hear so many different stories lets me know that I am not alone in this journey. No matter how my second birth story ends, I know that I will be in control and the experience is going to be completely different. I am forever grateful to the two of you for creating such a positive space for us mamas.”Oh, I love that so much. That makes me happy. It really is good reviews like this that help keeps us going. So thank you so much for leaving this review, jenh415. If you haven’t already, please, we would love to hear what you think about the podcast or anything else about The VBAC Link that has helped you on your journey. You can leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Facebook, Google, or anywhere that you can leave a review.New Mom Boss Kallista AndersonMeagan: All right. Okay. We are so excited, you guys. So again, Kallista Anderson with New Mom Boss. You can find her on Instagram and thenewmomboss.com. We are so excited to hear what she has to say today. But I have to give a little plug-in before we even begin and I am probably going to remind you after because I would highly suggest taking her workshop. She has got a four-day– you said four-day, right? I think?Kallista: Yes.Meagan: Okay, yes. A four-day workshop is kicking off on June 3rd. So we will make sure in the show notes right here to be posting the link to register. It’s a postpartum workshop and I think it is such a valuable tool. We were talking about it before we pressed record for the podcast, but I feel like in the VBAC community, especially– I mean, definitely all around the world– but in the VBAC world specifically, we are so focused on the birth, on how to get the birth of our dreams, the birth that we want, how to change the experience from what we had last time, how to heal from trauma. We are working so hard on all of that and when it comes to postpartum, I feel like sometimes, we tend to forget about it, and then postpartum comes and we are like, “Woah.” We are in this space that we haven’t really prepared with and then we are kind of rolling with it. I would love to hear, I am so excited to hear all of the tools and things that we can learn to help make the postpartum experience just as great as the birth experience.So without further ado, we are going to turn the time over to Kallista and hear what she has to say. I think the first topic we are talking about is strengthening our relationship during the postpartum period.Strengthening RelationshipsKallista: Yes. Hey ladies. Thank you again so much for having me on your show. I’ve been looking to come on your podcast and yes, I believe what you guys are providing is so valuable also. But yes, the postpartum part is my passion. Like you mentioned, a lot of times we are focused on the birth. For me, most of my audience are first-time moms who are focused on the first time having the baby and all the preparation for the baby, which is wonderful and so needed, but then we kind of cut our planning short up to when the baby is born. Then we enter the postpartum period or the fourth trimester, which we sometimes call the time for the afterbirth period. The baby, but also Mama goes through her own fourth trimester. That basically is the first three months after having the baby. As you probably know very well, it’s kind of the messy middle before you get settled into new motherhood. And so that is what I teach about and what I coach on. I have courses on that. I try to catch my mamas while they are pregnant so that we can prepare for the postpartum period.So that workshop coming up is exactly that. It’s called Prepping For Postpartum. But it’s open to postpartum mamas as well because it’s the same ideas, concepts, and preparation that we are doing whether you are pregnant or already have your baby. The only advantage of doing it while you are pregnant is that it does make that transition a little easier when you’ve already planned these things out. The relationship piece is one of the biggest pieces in that postpartum period which I am excited to talk about.Meagan: Yeah. We are excited to hear about it because like you said, totally. We have clients that thought after having a baby and then hiring a doula, they talked about, “I didn’t know. I didn’t even know about the fourth trimester. I didn’t even know.” And you hear about it and it’s like, okay. We need to do better. We need to do better because I know that there are other countries out there that are so trained in focusing on that postpartum so much that they have crews come in, and families are supported, and tribes that take care of these moms and these babies for months even after birth and it’s just not like that here. In the US, we have moms going back to work within weeks, just a few weeks after birth. Like you said, we are still transitioning and we are going through so much and so, yeah. I am excited. What tips would you give to someone listening, especially someone so heavily preparing for birth, on navigating through and preparing for this postpartum period and maybe even understanding the postpartum period a little bit better?Kallista: Great. And maybe a lot of your listeners aren’t first-time moms, but they already know how hard it is the first time around. It does get easier with each round of having babies, but if you are not thinking about some of these things that I will talk about, you may get— you know that saying, “You don’t know what you don’t know,” and you just kind of keep doing things the way you did it before. If you had a difficult time the first time around and you are not taking the time to figure things out for the second time, you may just have another difficult time.For me, just a quick backstory of how I started this is I had always wanted to be a mom. You know, the dolls, and I just knew I wanted to be a mom, a young mom. Although it took a little while, I was so ready. I did all of the things, bought all of the stuff, had a beautiful Pinterest nursery, and washed all of the clothes. The baby came and I had such difficulty with breastfeeding, and my relationship with my husband felt strange and strained at the same time in the first few weeks. That was a shock on top of the sleep deprivation, trying to get breastfeeding right, and all that stuff. And so I was trying to feel my way into it and do just one day at a time, but it was really hard. And then at four months, I found out I was pregnant again.Meagan: Oh.Kallista: Well, do the math and don’t judge, but–Meagan: No, that’s just shocking, right?Kallista: Right!Meagan: Julie actually had her babies close together too.Julie: Yeah, I just say, “Don’t do the math,” too.Kallista: They’re not quite Irish twins, but they’re 13 months apart. Yeah. It was hard enough for me the first time around that I was like, “This isn’t going to happen again.” And so I did a whole inventory of what I did and what I didn’t do, and how I could make things better, and so I had a beautiful second-time experience. That’s when I started sharing it with my friends and then slowly, it became a business where I am helping more than just the people around me, like, people all over the world– the Internet, you know?For most people, maybe that isn’t their thing where they are going to sit down and think of all the things they can do better, or just make things easier for themselves for the next time around, because if that’s not where your focus is, you are just going to do it again, right?So that’s how I got into this and because of my difficulties breastfeeding, I became a Certified Lactation Counselor. Also, the other thing is that I am a registered nurse and my husband is a doctor.Meagan: Yes. Yes. I was going to say, I didn’t even mention that you are an RN, so we have a medical professional too.Kallista: I think both of us coming from a medical background had a little bit of medical arrogance like, “We’ve got this.” You know? And it’s not even the medical stuff that matters. I mean, it matters, but for the most part, our babies were healthy. There was nothing medically needed. It was that practical setting up of your life and the day-to-day things, and the communication, and all of these things that you don’t think about when you are preparing your registry, or when you are having your baby shower, or at your OB visits, or midwife visits. Well, maybe midwives. I love midwives and I feel like they take a little more time to talk to you, but nobody checks in and says, “Oh, how is your household going to be?” or “How is your relationship going to be? Have you talked about that?”Meagan: Yeah, or even just, “What is your plan after for sleeping, and meals, and all of these things?”Kallista: Mhmm, yeah. The things we take for granted before, the easiest things before having a baby like showering, eating a meal, doing all these little things, changing out of your clothes. They are like big projects in the first few weeks because you are recovering from birth, you’re lacking sleep, and you’re still trying to get a handle on breastfeeding, especially your first time around. And so you’re juggling all of these things and everything gets put on the back burner. You put yourself on the back burner, you put your partner on the back burner, and your household.And so preparing for all of these different parts of your life ahead of time is going to allow you to just be more present with your baby. You get to recover and heal without the stress of juggling everything else around you. Like I mentioned, doing it during pregnancy is great, but if you’re in your postpartum already, it’s still very doable. It just takes a little time to think about what you need, and then to talk to your partner.So today, we want to talk about preparing the relationship, right? I don’t know about you ladies, but that was definitely not something we talked about ahead of time.Meagan: No. Not at all.Kallista: No, right? The conversations are about what names we are going to have and just the fun stuff which is wonderful and I’m not saying to throw that out at all. But we have to talk about the real-life stuff. The dynamics of the relationship are going to change especially with your first baby because you don’t know what you’re getting into yet. And then of course with each baby, it does change the family dynamics with every child.So that would be my first tip. Preparing your relationship for the arrival of the baby is talking about how your relationship is going to change. Even that single question can just open a whole bunch of other questions like, “What do you think is going to change? What would you like to keep?” because it’s not going to be the same. Date nights aren’t going to be as easy to do, especially for the first little while. Carving out the time is not as easily done.Meagan: Mhmm.Kallista: Not forgetting each other. The baby is taken care of. Mamas know how to take care of babies and then the concentric circles that go out– your family, your friends, or whoever is helping you, the caregivers, so I am usually not worried about the baby. Even first-time moms are worried about doing newborn care. So much of that is instinctive, but it’s the paying attention to your relationship with your partner and with yourself that is not very much in our orbit, or the top of mine, you know?Meagan: Mhmm. You know, when I was preparing for birth, and I am kind of going to really all of it, like, first baby, second baby, everything. I just feel like I was in my own world. I would talk to my husband. Like, “I was studying this” or “I read this” or “Oh, it’s fine. This is the size of the baby. This is what is going on,” but I was so in my own world that I don’t even know just looking back, right? My youngest kid is almost 6, but I don’t even know if I even included my husband. Not purposely like, “I don’t want to include him,” but in my thoughts, and in my preparation, or anything. I don’t know. I don’t think I really consciously, I don’t know. I just didn’t. Is that weird? Is that common? Do we, as women preparing for birth, just think, “Oh, this is happening to my body, so I am preparing and this is what is going on,” but I don’t really talk about it, you know? Yeah.Kallista: I think so. I can relate to that. I remember especially during my first pregnancy, I was glued to that app. I think it was the Pampers app and another birth app where–Meagan: Baby Bump?Kallista: The updates where it has turned into a different fruit–Meagan: Yep. Yep. Yep, I think it was like Baby Bump or something like that. “Your baby is a mango” or whatever, you know? I am like, “Oh. That is so cool,” thinking about it and then I totally just probably ignored him. So much of that, you know?Kallista: Yeah. I think that the thing with husbands and partners is that they have a totally different experience. They know that it’s mostly about Mama and they kind of just accept that they are not going to be the focus of attention. It’s so funny because a few weeks ago– two of my friends had babies recently and we all went to go see the babies. I asked the dads, “So how are you? How is it going with the new addition?” I asked them separately and they were each caught off guard. “You are asking about me?” They didn’t even know how to answer. They were like, “I don’t know. She is doing all the breastfeeding. I’m okay.” You know? They are having an experience, but they are not in tune. We are just wired differently, but what I like to encourage is to be more connected and to be thought of. That is one of the things I coach new moms or pregnant moms. The biggest tool I like to use is the love language.Meagan: Mhmm.Kallista: Knowing what your love language is and what your partner‘s love language is allows you to communicate your love at any time, but especially in the postpartum when you are each focused on different things. The baby, for sure, and for a lot of men, it’s providing, so they get more focused on work. They feel helpless that they can’t breastfeed the baby or the baby just wants mom. So there is a lot. They feel very helpless. I read a study that shows that men also experience postpartum depression, but it’s just never looked at. They don’t seek help. They just kind of white-knuckle it and just stay on the ride until it’s over, but that is not helpful to the relationship, right?Meagan: Yeah, totally. Totally and as a doula, something that I really want to focus on in my prenatals is Dad too. Like you said, they kind of accept that they are not the ones giving birth and all these things, but they do. They play a really important role in this day and they go through a lot themselves. And so I like to, as a doula, try to focus on, “Okay, how do you feel? What do you want for this birth? What are your personal goals to get out of birth and this experience?”We do talk about postpartum and say like, “What are your plans? What helps you? What do you need when you are tired?” Because dads are tired too. So anyway, yeah. I love it. That’s awesome.Kallista: Yeah. And most women, we are just more naturally, I don’t know, in tune with our community. We like community and we like to tell our friends how we are feeling. Men don’t do that for the most part. Right? So they don’t have a postpartum dad community. I mean, we barely have one for the moms, so it’s almost nonexistent for the dads.So I like to reel the dads in a little bit and have them be a part of the conversation as they are preparing for the baby. And then in the postpartum period, using those tools like the love language and how to carve time out for each other even when you don’t have a babysitter. Things like that, and setting a date night. This is one of the things I tell my clients to do is to set a date night. Whatever your due date is, add maybe three, four, or five weeks after that, and just put it in the calendar as a date night so that you don’t forget about it. You can always readjust as that day comes, but I am the type of person that if it’s not in the calendar, weeks and weeks or months and months might go by and I will be like, “Oh my gosh. I haven’t done X or Y or Z.”And so that is one way to stay connected and have something to look forward to in the postpartum period or in that fourth trimester.Meagan: Yeah. I love that. I love that so much. Also, maybe we can help them find their community before because sometimes we are going to be tired and maybe even a little checked out, and it will be great if we can help them find a solid community or even just someone to chat with when they are tired and frustrated because of whatever that is happening. So I love that.What are some number one tips for postpartum in general? If you were like, “If you don’t have time for anything, make time for these things.”Number One TipKallista: My number one tip is to have a meal train in the postpartum period.Meagan: Yes.Kallista: A lot of women, not just women, people, our culture in general– we want to be self-sufficient. We want to be superwomen and we want to take how we are in our careers a lot of the time like, “I did this” and accomplishments, and take that into motherhood where motherhood shouldn’t be done alone. It’s a transition of learning how to ask for help and receive help. And so I have found when I tell new moms or pregnant moms about the meal train, they feel like, “Oh. I don’t know. I don’t want to really ask my friends for that.”Meagan: Yes. I know! Yes.Kallista: Right?Meagan: Like, “Oh, I don’t want to put people out.”Kallista: Yeah. And so in my packages, I offer to do that for them because they don’t want it to come from them and so that takes a little bit of the guilt off of them. But you can also just ask a friend to organize it for you. I use mealtrain.com. All you do is collect your friends’ and families' emails and whoever is organizing it for you can just input all of that, and then you just pick dates.I recommend having a meal train for at least a month. The first two weeks, I would say, you are on a high with just a lot of adrenaline and you don’t feel the sleep deprivation, and then after that, it’s cumulative like, “Oh my god.” All those several or two weeks or longer worth of only two to three hours of sleep just come down like a ton of bricks. And so I like to set it up for at least four weeks.And nowadays, it’s never been easier, right? There is this platform where people don’t even have to go to your house. They can either order delivery or they can send a gift card, like a GrubHub card. The other beautiful thing about that platform is that if you do have friends and family nearby and you have some tasks in your household that you could use some help with, like walking your dogs, or taking out the trash cans if your partner isn’t able to for whatever reason, just anything that can alleviate and take things off your plate for a few weeks– this is a temporary time. So I guess the biggest message around that is, don’t be afraid to ask because it’s not like you are going to rely on them forever. You truly do need that help for the first several weeks and Meal Train allows you to do that. You can set scheduled tasks there and people can assign themselves the different tasks that you need help with.Meagan: Yeah. I love that so, so much. The thing is that these people are asking. It’s hard because I also wish we could change how our culture asks. Like, “Oh, if you need anything, let me know. I am here for you.” Sometimes it makes it kind of like, “Well, I don’t really know what I could ask for and I feel bad asking.” Instead, it’s just like, do it. And so even telling our community about these things, like this website, this platform, where it’s like, “This is what I need.” Don’t be scared to ask people for help because they honestly want to. People really do want to.Kallista: Yes. Right after the baby is born, everybody loves it when a baby is born. Everyone is so excited for you and so happy that I say to milk that time because it’s not forever. I think it’s because we are naturally wired that way. We are supposed to live in villages and help each other. It’s just not how we live anymore, but I think the instincts are there. We just have to remember that we are social animals and we are supposed to help each other. We weren’t actually made to live in single-family homes. We are supposed to live with our family. I love living this life, don’t get me wrong. I love having our own home, just my own little family, but when it comes to raising a child, especially right after birth and having a new baby, definitely lean on your community. The more you lean on them, the better you will be as a mom because you cannot do it alone. It’s not that you cannot do it alone because you can, but you won’t be as happy because if you are too tired, you are not going to be the kind of mom that you want to be for your baby. You want to reserve that energy for your baby, so let other people lift you up and carry you for the next 12 weeks, that fourth trimester, that postpartum period.Allow people to help you. Sometimes, the biggest barrier is just allowing people to help you.Meagan: Yes. I love what you just said. You are like, “Lean into this. Allow this to happen. Allow people to love you and serve you,” because like I said, they really want to. It reminded me of one time, I went to a client’s postpartum. So as a doula, we do a couple of prenatals. We go to the birth and then after, I love to– sorry. My dog is deciding to have a conversation as well over here.So we like to go and serve them and take that hour and a half while we are there to do whatever that means. If that is housecleaning, if that is nursing help, if that is cleaning toilets because family is coming in town and you don’t feel like cleaning toilets, great. We want to serve you during that time. But there was one time when I went over to do that visit and there was a list on the door. She had a screen door and so it was kind of just on her door. I was reading it as I was waiting for her to come to the door and I thought it was brilliant. It said something to the effect of, “Hi, everybody! We are so happy you are here to see us and meet Baby so and so. While you are here if you would not mind, these are things that would benefit and help us tremendously.” She had a little checklist like, “take out the trash, sweep my floor” and all of these little things. She was just like, yeah. My people come in and we visit, and it’s so great, and they leave, and my floor is now clean, and I don’t feel like I have to hold the baby and vacuum. My husband doesn’t feel like he has to tackle the kids and get them to bed and then now vacuuming is too late because the kids are sleeping. He doesn’t want the kids to wake up. And I was just like, “Wow. Good for her. That is what we need to lean into and not be scared of doing and saying, “These things would be greatly appreciated. I love that you are here. I am so grateful to you if you wouldn’t mind helping me with these things.”Kallista: Yes. Yes, I love that. I love that idea as well. I also recommend that to new moms. The other thing I like to add on that note is especially in the early, early weeks, the first few weeks when you have visitors, you actually need a lot of rest those first few weeks, right? I know from myself that once I get chitchatting with my girlfriend, I love it so much that we will be talking for two hours or three hours later after she arrives when I really planned for an hour visit. And so that’s another thing I like to add to that door note is, “I am going to want to talk to you forever, but remind me that I need to rest after an hour because I can go on and on.” We crave that adult conversation, but then we forget like, “Oh yeah, I forgot. Tonight, I am not going to sleep, actually, once the baby wakes up in the middle of the night.”Meagan: Exactly like, “I love hanging out with you, but I probably should be sleeping while I am holding my sleeping baby.” Yeah. I love that. Please keep the visits limited and that is okay to do. It really, really is okay to do. It’s also okay to say, “Hey, will you hold my baby and love on my baby for a second while I go take a quick nap?”Kallista: Mhmm, yes.Meagan: It’s okay to say that.Kallista: You want a nap. You want a shower.Meagan: Shower, yeah.Kallista: Those three things I was like– I am very lucky that my mom lives two blocks away.Meagan: That is lucky.Kallista: I would call her, “Can you come over so I can shower? Can you come over and hold the baby so I can eat really quick?” And she would. She did that for the first couple of months. It was so great.Meagan: That is so, so awesome. I don’t know how much you talk about postpartum doulas, but there are doulas who are specifically there for postpartum help. They come in and they do the cleaning, and they can bring baby in the middle of the night to you so you don’t have to even exert your energy to get up and go into the other room, right? They can take the other kids. They can take the other kids to the zoo, or to the park, or for a walk, or go out on their bikes, so you and baby can nap. These are all services. It is so hard because there are so many things in life right now, especially these days, right? Money and things are so expensive and it’s hard. It’s hard to spend the money, or feel like that might be valuable, or to even justify it, but if you look at the long term and you say, “Okay. I can hire this postpartum help or I can sign up for this postpartum workshop to get the tools,” is going to seriously help you in the end. It will all be worth it, and then two years down the road, you will be like, “Yeah. It was totally worth whatever amount of money I spent because I had a really awesome experience and I was really able to bond with my baby, be present with my kids, and be the person I know I am– not super, super exhausted and so spent because I was able to lean in on this help.”Invest in YourselfKallista: Yes. You bring up a really good point. That is the other thing. A lot of us, in the beginning, have trouble accepting help even if it’s free help. The other thing is investing in ourselves. My husband and don’t take big family vacations. We actually love investing in things in our family. So we do have a lot of support as far as nannies go and things to make things easier for us like having someone else garden for us or whatever. That’s just how we choose to invest. An investment isn’t always a return on investment as far as money and financial returns. We think about our mental health, our joy, and our comfort. And so I think it’s good to remember, especially in the postpartum period, that it is the perfect time to invest in yourself because for the mamas who already have babies, you already know how hard the fourth trimester is, right? What would you give to be yourself to make it easier the next time so that would be the best mama you want to be for your baby and the best partner for your husband? I believe the mom sets the tone in the home. When the mom is down, it affects everything, right? We are the queens of our castles and when we are not at our best, it affects how we care for our baby, how we are when our partners are around, or when they come home, and so on and so forth.Meagan: Yep. Definitely. Definitely. Oh my goodness. Now my dog is barking. I love that though. Invest in yourselves and love yourselves.Kallista: Mhmm. Definitely. We get so focused on loving the baby which is so natural. You don’t even have to worry. That is there already. It’s the focus on self-care, healing, and getting the support and the love for yourself from your community and the people around you who can help you. That’s what, if you have time to gather that and to put those resources in place, that will definitely make your transition into motherhood, whether it’s your first baby, second baby, third baby, whatever, you will just have a better experience and bond with yourself, your baby, and your partner.Postpartum Depression: Warning Signs and ResourcesJulie: That’s great advice. I love it. One thing that I am passionate about, or maybe sensitive to about, during the postpartum stage is– my gosh. After my second, I had pretty bad postpartum depression and anxiety. Can we talk a little bit about what some of the warning signs are for parents or for even birth partners to look out for in their partners so that people can know when it might be appropriate to get a little more help outside of their community, their friends, or their support system? I know that it’s not something we talk about very often, but it is something that a lot of women face– some sort of postpartum mood disorder in that fourth trimester. What are some things you should be looking out for? When should we seek additional help like reaching out to a therapist or maybe a family care provider to get on medication or things like that?Kallista: Yeah, I’m so glad you asked that question. There is a really short quiz called the Edinburgh Postnatal Depression Scale and I can shoot you guys the link later to share with your audience.Julie: Yeah. We will put it in our show notes.Kallista: Yes. So this scale is recommended to be taken during pregnancy around somewhere in the third trimester, so 28-32 weeks. Around there, or just any time you hear about this if you’re pregnant. And then you take it again 6-8 weeks postpartum. That way, you have a baseline and see where you lie on the scale before you have the baby, and then you retake it and you see if there is a change. If it’s the same, then you’re probably okay. But I would still look out for signs of a lot of crying and sadness when you don’t really know what you are sad about. Those are some telltale signs.It is very common. There are postpartum blues, which are even more common. It’s just that sad feeling that usually goes away on its own, but a more severe feeling of that is going to be the postpartum depression and that scale is going to help you determine that. I encourage partners to take it as well because it is on the rise. Maybe it was always there, but we are just now learning about it or putting our attention on it.Julie: Yeah. I am really glad that you brought that up because we often think about postpartum depression and mood disorders in relation to the mother, but a lot of times it can affect the dad and other birth partners as well, and it’s something that we don’t even notice or talk about. So I’m glad that more awareness is being brought to that. I know that sometimes, the first person to notice that something is out of whack with their partner is the partner. My husband noticed it in me before I started noticing these things in myself.And so I always like to talk about that in my postpartum visits like Meagan was saying. Going over some of those things and going over some of those signs that you need to be watching out for so you can be aware because help is out there. Sometimes it’s a little bit harder to find, but I think reaching out and just acknowledging that you may need a little bit more help, that’s okay.There’s always help out there for you. If you can’t find help, then there’s this great group called Postpartum Support International as well. Also, all of the great resources that Kallista offers. That’s another great resource that’s available for parents as well.Kallista: Right. I had a very similar experience, actually. I had postpartum depression after my third which was a shock to me because I didn’t have it the first two times and I don’t have a history of depression, not that you need it, but I just don’t normally have those kinds of feelings. It was also my husband who noticed that I was just so down and crying. He was like, “I think you are depressed,” and I was like, “Oh my god.” I was such in a fog still because it was three to four weeks after the baby. My recovery with the third one was the hardest because he was almost 10 pounds and it was just a different experience than the first two.And so yeah. I went to go see my OB and I just told her, “I think I have postpartum depression” and she was like, “Oh, okay. Do you want something for that?” I don’t have anything against taking medication, but she didn’t even try to ask me. That was the straight solution and I said, “I want to wait,” and I went to my therapist. We have this therapist that we used to use as a couple, which I highly recommend too for any couple. I think it can only add to your marriage or your relationship when you have a third party who is skilled in communicating.Anyhow, I went back to her. We talked it out and everything, and I felt better. But also, that was also the same time when I was sleep training my baby and just getting more sleep immediately helped that, and then the talk therapy and just doing all of the self-care stuff. It got me out of that postpartum depression. But I know for some people, you definitely need above and beyond that. That’s why it’s good to go to somebody who is skilled in not just medication, but also therapy because I think you need it all. You want the options of it all.Julie: Yes, absolutely. I agree. Therapy plus medication can be a great combination. Some people just need one or the other, but if your provider is offering you medication only, that’s not inherently a bad option, but I would advise you to seek out therapy on your own because medication has proven to be a lot more effective when it is combined with therapy as well and vice versa too sometimes. So yeah. Great options are available out there.Meagan: Yeah. I actually had a similar experience, but my postpartum stuff, I would say, started kicking in probably around month nine, actually, but I didn’t really feel it. I didn’t really recognize or accept it until 12 months. It was so late and so I just didn’t think of baby blues or postpartum depression. I was like, “Yeah, I’m not postpartum anymore. I am almost a year out. This isn’t postpartum.” My husband was like, “You are not okay.” And I was like, “Yeah. I’m fine. It’s fine.” He was like, “No. You’re not okay.” And so I also went to my doctor and he was like, “Oh, here’s some medication,” and I was just like, “But what’s happening?” You know? I don’t know. He didn’t really talk to me or anything. He was just like, “Here. Here are some pills. You can start taking them.” And again, nothing against pills, like absolutely fine, but I just wanted more. “This is what I believe you are experiencing. These are some options that we could try.”And so I went home and I just was crying and I was like, “Am I really experiencing this?” My husband was like, “Yeah. It sounds like it.” I was like, “Oh.” He was like, “Why don’t we figure this out? What can we do?” We found out that I was losing myself. I didn’t know where I belonged anymore. I was suddenly a mom which was amazing, don’t get me wrong. I love being a mom. But I went from being this big social butterfly, I had a job 9-5, I did what I wanted when I wanted and then all of a sudden, I was being run, in my head, by this baby on the schedule of this baby, and then I quit my job so I could be with my baby, which I am so grateful for, but at the same time, I lost my social outlet.So I was just really, really struggling and I found a barre class, an exercise barre class and I realized that I needed me time. Circling back to what we were talking about in the beginning, I also needed my husband time because I no longer felt like we were a married couple. I felt like we were roommates who shared a baby in the house. It was the weirdest feeling. And so I feel like it is so important along the way to tap into it and not be scared to say, “I am not okay and I need to talk to someone,” whether that’s an OB, whether that’s a midwife, whether that’s a therapist, whether that’s whoever, it’s okay. It’s okay to again, lean in, talk, let it out, and work through it because like I said, it was around nine months, but then nine, ten, eleven, twelve. I went for months and it just got worse, and worse, and worse. I hate that in this world, we feel like we have to suppress it or we have to feel alone because we don’t. We can get help and there are people out there for us.Kallista: Mhmm and kudos to our husbands for catching it.Meagan: Seriously though, yeah.Julie: Bless their hearts.Meagan: Like Julie said, yes. And then what I didn’t even realize until I was preparing for my VBAC was that my husband had trauma himself and issues that he was still holding onto from my first baby’s birth years and years ago. And so it’s just, yeah. It’s important to talk with our partners and really let it out. Sometimes, we don’t know why we are crying and that’s okay if we don’t know why we are crying or we don’t know why we are upset, but let it out and get it out. And use our resources because like you said, that world makes it so easy. It does really make it so easy. I mean, there are even therapists that help online. You don’t even have to go out of your house.Kallista: Everything is at our fingertips.Meagan: It really is, but for some reason, we don’t like to use the resources that we have sometimes. We are hesitant. And so, yeah. I think it’s just so important that we use them, accept them, and we love ourselves enough. Love yourself enough to not only prepare for your birth, and to prepare during your pregnancy, and treat yourself and your baby great during pregnancy, but also treat yourself great in the postpartum because that will make you a better parent, too. There’s a saying, “Happy wife, happy life”. It’s the same. A happy, healthy mom is going to be the best you. You are going to be the best you if you can take care of yourself.Kallista: Right. Right. And we can start modeling that now. I mean, I know babies don’t know that we are taking care of ourselves right away, but if we start practicing that and doing the self-care and just making that a habit, then it’s just going to make your experience as a mom even more beautiful because you’re not running yourself ragged. You know what they say on the plane, “Put the oxygen mask on yourself before you put the oxygen mask on anybody else,” right? We need our cups to be filled first so that they can run over.Meagan: Absolutely. And honestly, we are setting an example to our children, like you said. The babies don’t really recognize it right away, but in the long run, they are going to see because if we can set this mentality and carry it through our lives as we are raising our children, they are going to see how important that is and they are going to do the same thing.Kallista: Yeah. And actually, my kids love that my husband and I have a good relationship. They clap and they tell us to kiss because whenever we do, I guess it makes them feel secure. And so when you give a little more attention to your relationship and your kids see that, it gives them more comfort and security as a family. That can start right from the beginning.I think maybe that’s why they do feel that way because we’ve done a pretty good job. We’ve had our bumps and that’s why we went to therapy early on. Having kids back-to-back was a little straining on our relationship, but we figured it out and I am grateful we are just open to the outside help and that we don’t have to figure it out all alone. Of course, it starts with us too and we both have to be on the same page, but then using the resources that we have access to has been so great for our family. And really, it did start at the beginning.New Mom Boss WorkshopMeagan: Yes. Oh my gosh. I loved this. This has been so great and I truly do believe that it’s going to be valuable to all of our listeners. So I wanted to remind them that kicking off on June 3rd, 2022, you have a four-day workshop and they can register. You can find the link in our show notes or do you want to give them the information that they can register at on your website?Kallista: Yeah. It’s going to be on https://www.newmomboss.com/pfp-workshop.Meagan: Workshop. Okay. Right now there is a waitlist, but you are opening up when? So we can start telling all of our people?Kallista: Sure. So the registration will open on May 16th and if you are listening to this after, then it’s probably open already. Yeah. So it’s opening on May 16th and then we get to work. We will have a little pre-party on June 3rd and then go into the workshop over the weekend because I have found there are a lot of working mamas and the weekend works best. So we are going to do it starting on June 3rd, and then it’s going to be a four-day workshop after that. We will prepare as much as we can before the baby arrives, but like I said before, if you are already in postpartum, a lot of the same things will apply to the postpartum period if you are already in it and it will just make your experience in the postpartum period that much better.Meagan: Awesome. Thank you so much for being with us today and sharing your wealth of knowledge. Again, like I said, if you haven’t followed her yet, go follow her right now. You can find her on Instagram, @newmomboss, and I am sure she has got all of the things that you are going to love.Kallista: Thank you so much, Julie and Meagan. I have been looking forward to coming on your show and I appreciate you guys taking the time to chat with me.Meagan: Thank you.ClosingInterested in sharing your VBAC story on the podcast? Submit your story at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“When she saw that I couldn’t speak, she spoke up for me.”Though her first birth felt wildly out of control, Daniela learned her first lessons in how to speak up in the birth space by pushing for pain relief during her Cesarean even when she wasn’t initially believed. During her VBAC preparation, Daniela’s confidence just kept growing. Yet though she was confident, she knew she couldn’t only rely on herself. So with her husband and a trusted doula by her side, Daniela was able to keep her focus on laboring and achieve the VBAC she envisioned.Advocating for yourself in the birth space can feel scary, but Meagan and Julie discuss how to help you feel strong enough in your desires and courageous enough to make sure they are honored during your VBAC.Additional linksBenefits of a Doula for Pregnancy, Birth, & BeyondVBAC Friendly Doctors: How to Find a Truly Supportive ProviderHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFind a VBAC DoulaFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Julie: Welcome to The VBAC Link podcast. This is Julie and Meagan with you today. We are so excited. Oh my gosh, we are just getting back into the groove of podcast recording and I’m just over here with a big ol’ smile on my face. I’m sure Meagan is the same. We just shut off our videos. We record on Zoom. So we just shut off our videos and it is always fun to get to see each other because Meagan and I hardly ever see each other anymore. It’s really funny. But it’s fun to see our guest, and just chit-chat a little bit first, and get back into it. But we have a really, really exciting guest for you today. It is Daniela and she’s going to share her story about her VBAC. We’re going to talk about advocating for your rights during childbirth because that’s a really hard thing to do and sometimes you don’t exactly know how to do it. So Daniela’s story is going to go into that a little bit, and then we’re going to talk a little bit more at the end. But before we get started, Meagan has a Review of the Week for us. Review of the WeekMeagan: Yes, I do. This is from Jen7363728. Julie: “867-5309”. Okay sorry, go on. Meagan: The title is, “So inspiring.” She says, “Thank you for providing this important resource to women. I am preparing for my VBAC coming any day now (40 weeks, 5 days today). Your podcast has been so informative and inspirational! Your work is truly making a difference. Thank you for empowering me and so many others to follow this journey.”And I love that. I am excited to know if she had her VBAC or how her birth went. That was back in June, you guys. June of 2021? 2021. No, 2020. I bet this was in 2020. So that was a long time ago. We love our reviews. If we ever read your review on the podcast, we’d love to know the follow-up. Let us know how things went and of course, we’re always looking for new and fun reviews. So if you have a second, drop us a review. You can do it on Apple Podcasts. You can do it on Google, pretty much wherever.Julie: Facebook. Meagan: Facebook. Wherever we are, you can leave us a review. We love them. They mean the world to us and we love reading them on the podcast. So thank you so much to Jen– all the numbers– 7363728.Daniela’s StoryJulie: I love it. Oh my gosh, this is so exciting. Okay. We are here today with Daniela. She is a wife, a mama of two boys, and she is currently expecting baby number three in the fall of 2022. So we’re so excited for her and her upcoming birth as well. But before we get talking too much or singing, because apparently singing is something I do now on the podcast, I don’t even know. The first episode, I don’t know, this is weird. Before I start being weird again, Daniela, welcome. We are so excited to have you and we would love for you to share your stories with us. Daniela: Thank you. It is an honor to be here. Every time I listened to the podcast, I was like, “Oh, one day I’m going to be on it and tell my story.” So this is a dream come true for me. Julie: Yay! Daniela: Yeah, so I got pregnant back in 2018 and it was the same year that I had a miscarriage, so my C-section was my rainbow baby. It was pretty, kind of like– mixed emotions. Julie: Yeah. Daniela: Anyway. So I thought I wanted this natural, unmedicated birth from the beginning. I went with the midwives because I thought they were going to be a huge part of my birth process in not wanting to have a medicated birth. So anyway, my whole pregnancy was normal, healthy, you know, no concerns or anything. So I thought, “Why not? The birth is going to be just as wonderful as the pregnancy was.” So it was about 39 weeks and my contractions started Saturday morning, like 3:00 a.m., but they were 10 minutes apart, 20 minutes apart. They were very random. So I was like, “Well I’m just going to keep resting and sleeping.” And then by noon, 1:00-2:00 p.m., they were getting more in a rhythm. So I started checking them and they were pretty consistent, but they were not very intense. It was the first time, so I didn’t know what to expect. I didn’t even know how the pain level was going to be. And I remembered in the classes that I took, they told me, “Just 4-1-1. Every 4 minutes, for 1 minute, every minute, for an hour.”Meagan: At least an hour, yeah. Daniela: So I said, “Okay.” So I timed it and they were pretty consistent, but they were not very intense. So I called the midwife and I said, “They are 4-1-1, but they are not very intense.” And she’s like, “Well, you can just come in.” So I said, “Okay.”And then they checked me, and I was at 4. They were like, “No, you still need to go home. You’re starting to labor more.” And I remember they told me, “When you need to punch someone or punch something and you start crying, that’s when you need to come in.” I said, “Okay.”So I called my mom and I said, “You know what? I think it’s time. The time is getting sooner, so why don’t you come over?” She came over, so it was my mom, my husband, and myself. I started laboring and stuff and by that time, I hadn’t eaten anything because I just didn’t want to eat anything. I wasn’t feeling like it. Anyway, and then by 7:00 p.m. or 8:00 p.m., they got really intense and I was punching the wall, and I was crying, and I remember I was fighting every single contraction. I would just fight it to not feel the pain. And my mom was a little bit stressed. So I don’t know if that got into my head, that ambiance of her not being calm and relaxed, that it got to me. And then she told my husband, “We need to go to the hospital. We need to go to the hospital right now. She’s crying and she’s punching the walls.” Anyway, so we got to the hospital. They checked me and I was 5. I did not want to get the epidural in the back of my mind, but I was in so much pain. I looked at my husband and I said, “I’m sorry, babe. I need to have an epidural.” And he looked at me and he was like, “Okay. If that’s what you want to do, that’s fine. But you said–,” And I said, “I know, but I’m so sorry.” I was in so much pain. He was supportive in that way, but he didn’t want to speak up, like, “You told me that you didn’t want an epidural.” Anyway, he was trying to be supportive. I think we got to the hospital around 11:00. by that time. They gave me the epidural right in my room after triage, and I progressed from 5-8 centimeters in three hours. It was really quick and I was like, “Okay, this is going well.” I think they gave me Pitocin. To be honest, I don’t remember. So I progressed really well in three hours and I was like, “Oh, this is going really well. I’m progressing well.” But from 8 centimeters to 9, it took forever, like, maybe ten hours. It took a long time.Meagan: Wow.Daniela: It took a long time.Meagan: Wow.Daniela: I was doing fine. The baby was doing fine, nothing to worry about like, “Oh, we need to go into a C-section.” But then it was Sunday afternoon by that time, so I was in the hospital for a really long time. No eating because you are not allowed, so I had nothing to eat. I was tired, all of that, and then by 2:00, they were like, “Okay. Even though you are not 10,” I was like 9 1/2, “We are going to start pushing.” I said, “Okay.”We started pushing, and pushing, and pushing, and pushing for four hours. For four hours, I pushed. By the time I was done pushing or before the four-hour mark, the heart rate was decreasing– the baby's heart rate. They were like, “Well, the baby is not tolerating the contractions well, so we might as well just do a C-section,” just to have that in the back of my mind.I think as soon as I heard that “C-section” word, I just shut down. Like, my brain shut down, my body shut down. I don’t know, just a completely different vibe that I felt. And then I remember when I was pushing, my husband was like, “Okay. You need to keep going. Come on, we don’t want to do a C-section. Come on. You can do it.” He was really trying to be supportive. I pushed and nothing. They told me that the heart rate was really low and they were like, “Okay. I am so sorry. We just have to do a C-section.” By the time they told me that, I was tired. I was so afraid. The whole ambiance just changed in seconds. There were three people in the room– my husband, my mom, and the midwife– and then in two seconds, there were 12 people in the room. You know, scattering, like, “You need to sign this paper,” and this, and this, and that, and I was like, “What just happened? What is happening right now?” So they let me sign the forms, and I have no idea what I signed. I was in out-of-it mode by that point. So I signed and I was sobbing. I was crying. I was so scared that something would happen to my baby, that something would happen to me, so I felt defeated. Like, I did my work. I thought I researched. I thought I prepared myself, but I guess not. So anyway, we went to the OR. I was there and my husband was there at the back of my head, and I just remember feeling every single little bone pulling out of my body. I remember there was a doctor right behind me and she said, “You are not supposed to feel pain. You are supposed to feel just pressure.” And I was like, “This does not feel like pressure.” I felt everything. And she was like, “Is it painful?” And I said, “Yes!” So I guess they gave me more pain medication and as soon as she did that, the pressure was still there, but the pain was gone. So thankfully, I spoke and I said something.Julie and Meagan: Yeah.Daniela: Because otherwise, I would have felt them stitching me. Oh my gosh. It was horrible.So the whole thing was 15 minutes that I was there. I was crying, and I was shaking, and I was in pain, and I was screaming for the whole 15 minutes. My husband told me this. So after that, the baby was born, and then they showed it to me. They showed him to me through the curtains. At that point, I was so defeated and I was so overwhelmed that I remember I did not want to take a look at my baby.Like, what just happened? I just had a baby and I felt horrible. You are supposed to take care of your baby and want to hold your baby. I did not want anything to do with the baby. Like, nothing. I did not want to take a look at him, nothing for like, 10 minutes. After they had given him to my husband, my husband carried him and showed him to me, and then by that time I was like, “Oh, I had a baby!”Meagan: Kind of a disconnect. There was a disconnect, yeah.Daniela: Yes. Very disconnected. And then after that, I started shaking. They told me that it was normal. They said, “If you start shaking, that’s normal,” but I was nonstop shaking and I was like, “This is not normal.” So I started shaking and they gave me more medicine, I guess, to stop shaking. I remember that they asked me in the room, they were like, “Do you want to hold your baby?” And I said, “No. I am afraid that I’m going to drop him,” because I was so shaky.Meagan: Shaking so bad, yeah.Daniela: I think it took about an hour and a half and after that, I was like, “Okay. I just had the baby. I stopped shaking. Okay. I can finally hold my baby.” So I didn’t get the golden hour that I was craving. So yeah. That was my traumatic experience with my C-section. The recovery was awful. We had to stay with my mom for about two months because back then, I was living in an apartment with stairs, so I couldn’t go up the stairs or down the stairs. So I stayed with my mom. You can just imagine how living with your mom after having a baby and a husband, it’s just like, “Okay. This is not what I planned.”Meagan: I cannot only personally imagine. I’ve done it. My mom lived with me, but yes. A lot of people would think that it’s super ideal because Mom is there to help and that’s nice, but it’s just not. You need your space.Daniela: Exactly.Meagan: You need your space. Yeah.Daniela: Exactly, especially after having a baby and a traumatic experience.Julie: Yeah.Daniela: So anyway, after that, I was determined that there was no way I was going to have another birth with the same experience. Like, no way. I was going to do everything in my power and everything that I could so I didn’t experience this again. I started researching birth after Cesarean and I learned the term “VBAC”. I had never heard of it. So I learned about it. I learned about the Facebook group and the podcast. I just started listening to stories, reading stories, and just getting information. I just pretty much saturated myself. That’s all I thought about. That’s all I talked about with friends and family. I guess they were pretty tired of me talking about it.And just the people– they think that just because you have a C-section, then you’re going to have a C-section with all of your births. I remember people looking at me like, “You are crazy.” Like, “Oh, you had a C-section, so you’re going to have another C-section?” And I was like, “No. I am going to have a VBAC.” And they were like, “What is that?” So you know, it gave me the chance to give knowledge to other people about VBAC and all of that, so I felt pretty powerful knowing something and telling people about it. So that was pretty cool. So anyway, and then after that, I took this pregnancy differently. I tried to eat healthier. I was more active. I was exercising, walking, just doing all of the movements, and bouncing on my ball. I did everything they told me to do to have a successful VBAC. I did the dates and the raspberry tea. Everything, I did. I hired a doula. I hired a doula at late 37 weeks or 36 weeks. I took so long because we couldn’t afford it and I really did talk to my husband. I said, “I really think we need this.” And he was like, “Okay.” We prayed about it and God showed us, “Okay. Yes. This is what it takes for you to have a VBAC, then just go for it.” So we felt at peace.So we hired a doula. Time went and I was almost 38 weeks. It was my baby shower and I woke up with contractions that day. It was early morning, but they were 10 minutes apart, 15 minutes apart. So I texted my doula and I said, “I don’t know if this is the real thing, but I am having contractions. They are very random,” and she was like, “Just take a shower. Relax and just let me know how you feel.” And I said, “Okay.”So I did that and I think that relaxed my body. They were farther apart, like 30 minutes apart, 40, and then 20, and 15, so very random. And then after that, my husband was like, “Are you going to your baby shower?” And I said, “Yes!” And he was like, “But you are in labor.” I’m like, “I might be. I might be not. Who knows?”So I went to my baby shower and I guess I just forgot about the contractions talking with the people and all that. This was during COVID, so we actually did a drive-through baby shower. I did not want to tell anyone but my sister and my sister-in-law. I did not want to tell my mom because of the past experience that I had with her that she just gets really stressed very quickly and she was not feeling good. We had thought that she might have had COVID, so I said, “I am not going to worry her with that either,” so I didn’t tell her. I went to my baby shower and by the middle of the baby shower, I was feeling the contractions very soon and I was like, “Okay. I think this is the real deal.” The baby shower ended around 7:00 p.m. and I went home. I needed to stop to breathe through my contractions and when my husband saw me, he was like, “Oh. Oh my gosh. I think we are having a baby.” I didn’t even pack. I didn’t even have the hospital bag ready. He didn’t even have the bag ready either. It was two weeks early. We never thought that he was going to come two weeks early.Julie: That is so funny. With my third baby, my second VBAC, I went to a baby shower for myself on her birthday as well and she was born at 37 weeks. It’s so funny. There are so many parts where I’m just laughing along because I am just right there with you.Daniela: So anyway, I said, “You and I just pack some things. Put some things in the bag.” So I got very, very, very intense with my breathing and I think that helped me through– the whole contractions, and how to breathe, and how to stay calm, and all of that. I was very focused on my breathing and I did not let anything distract me. Not even my toddler, my husband, my thoughts, anything. I just kept breathing. After an hour, I said, “I think you need to call my doula.” So my husband called my doula. I hadn’t even met my doula. The day after, on Sunday, we were supposed to meet directly meet in person. So I actually met my doula during my labor.Meagan: When you started labor.Julie: I had a birth like that.Meagan: I have done that too. I was at a birth one time where they called me and they were like, “We have been in labor for two days. Please come over.”Julie: Oh my gosh, I love it.Meagan: So I was meeting them in between contractions. Like, “Okay, so what do you do for a living? How long have you been together?”Julie: “What’s your birth plan?”Meagan: Yeah. “What would you like for this birth?” Yeah.Julie: Oh, okay. Okay, okay. Go on.Daniela: Yes. I mean, we talked on the phone about what was my birth plan and all that. But it’s just that we were going to practice breathing techniques and pain– none of that happened.Julie: I love it.Daniela: So anyway, she came over. She was listening on the phone and I was making those sounds and she was like, “Oh yeah. She’s in labor. Okay, just give me an hour and I will be right there.” So she came in an hour and I labored for another hour for a while in my home– dim lights, the toddler was asleep, I had my worship music on. It was just so different from my first birth. I was very calm and very focused on my breathing and she helped me through movement and stuff like that. And then at around 10:00, 10:30, my water broke. I said, “I think my water broke,” because I never experienced that and she was like, “Okay. Let me check.” So we checked and she was like, “Yep. That was your water. Okay, so how are you feeling? Do you want to go to the hospital now?” I was like, “I don’t know. Should I?” I had no idea what to do. I was like, “Maybe.” I said, “Can I just wait a little bit longer and see how I feel?” She was like, “Just letting you know, the contractions are going to get more intense and the hospital is about 30-35 minutes away.” I said, “Let me just do one more contraction.” She was like, “Okay. Let’s just do it.” But they were so back to back and I was like, “Oh no. I think I need to go to the hospital right now.” I told her, I said, “I have the urge to push.” She was like, “Oh my gosh.” So she pulled my husband and she was like, “Just letting you know, if you think that she is going to have the baby in the car, just pull over and call 9-1-1.” My husband was like, “Oh my gosh. No. Let’s just not do that.”Meagan: He’s like, “Uh, no. Let’s not do that at all. Someone else can drive. Someone else can drive.”Daniela: Yes. So we rushed to the hospital and we got there. They checked me and they were like, “Okay. You are an 8,” and I was like, “Okay. Yes. I can do this,” because I had learned that transition is the quickest– the most painful one, but the quickest one. I said, “Okay. If I am an 8, I know I can do this.” So yeah. They checked me and by that time they were asking me questions and in the second that I had to breathe, I answered them. I would not answer them when I was having a contraction. I was like, “I don’t care about them. I just care about my breathing and if something is going to throw me off, then I am not going to do it.”They turned me from triage to a room and they were like, “Okay. She is going quickly. We are going to have this baby really quickly. We got to the room and they were like, “Can we do this?” And I said, “No.” “Can we do an IV?” And I said, “No.” That was one of the things that I advocated for myself and I didn’t know before. I didn’t know that I could deny any intervention that they wanted to do.The funny part is when I walked in the room, there were the nurses and there was the doctor and they were like, “Oh, this is Dr. such-and-such.” It was the same doctor that did my C-section and I remembered his name clearly. I was like, “Oh my gosh.” So I thought, “Okay. He might want to push to have a C-section because he did it with me.” So I was like, “No. I am not going to go there with my thoughts. No. Let’s just keep focused on breathing.” He was like, “Okay. How are you doing?” I was trying not to breathe and I was like, “Oh, I am good. They were trying to put in the IV and I was like, “No. I don’t need to,” and they were like, “Can I check you?” And I said, “Hold on. I am breathing. I am having a contraction.” And then I was feeling the urge to push. I don’t know how, but I just knew. I just knew that I was ready to push. They were like, “Don’t push. I need to check you. I need to check you.” I was like, “Do you have to check inside of me?” I was yelling, “You don’t need to check me. I just need to have this baby right now,” but I did not say anything because I didn’t want to lose my strength in telling them what to do. I was like, “No.” So they were like, “Can I please check you?” And I said, “Okay.” I put the position of all fours. I didn’t lay on my back because I knew that would not go well. So I put myself in the bed on all fours and they were like, they weren’t sure, “Are you going to roll over?” And I said, “No. I’m going to keep it like that.” She was like, “Okay.” So she checked me and she was like, “Oh yeah. She is ready.” Inside of me, I was like, “Of course, I am ready. I knew that.”So anyway, I was still in that position and the nurse asked the doctor, she was like, “I think she wants to push in that position. Is that okay?” She was asking the doctor and I was like, “Yes. Of course, it’s okay.” I want to push however I want to push. This is my baby and this is my birth! And the doula was very helpful. She didn’t speak to the staff on my behalf, but when she saw that I couldn’t speak, she spoke up for me.Julie: Good for her.Daniela: She spoke with my husband and then my husband spoke for me, so she didn’t take my place, but she helped me through that. And the nurses asked, “What is her birth plan?” My husband was like, “No clue.” My doula had to dim lights and this, and that, and that, so all of that. So she was helpful in the end. Very helpful. So anyway, and then after that, I started pushing. I pushed for 30 minutes and he was out. When I felt the whole body out of my body, I switched right over to my back and they were like, “Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. You are going to crush the baby!” because I was so excited to hold my baby. So I leaned over and they were like, “Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. We need to unwrap him.” I said, “Okay.” They unwrapped him from the umbilical cord and they were like, “Okay. Now you can move over.” So I moved and went on my back. They just handed him to me right away and I just started sobbing, and crying, and I was just in awe. Like, “I cannot believe that I did that.” It was just an amazing feeling and I never thought that I was going to be able to do an unmedicated birth at all. So yeah. That’s my story.Julie: That’s really exciting. I love it. I love that everything went so quickly that you barely knew what to do. I love those parts of that. Sometimes, things are definitely a little more challenging that way, but sometimes it works out a little bit easier because there’s not a lot of time to try and interfere with the birth process if that makes sense.Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, I love that too because they want to help you, but like you said, there’s no time to be like, “Well, we are going to do this. We are going to do this. We are going to do this.” Even like you said, the few things that they did want to do that you didn’t feel comfortable with, you were like, “No. I don’t want to. I don’t want that.” And that’s a hard thing to do in that situation. There’s a lot of people like, “Hey, we need this IV. We need this. We need this.” And it’s like, “Okay, okay, okay,” because you’re not in a state of mind that you just can be like, “Oh wait. Hold on. I don’t want that. I don’t want this.” A lot of times, people just go in and are like, “Okay. Yeah, whatever,” because they are so focused on laboring. You kept your focus on laboring and then also kept your focus on what was important to you. I applaud you for that because that’s really, really hard to do.Daniela: Thank you.Julie: Yeah. I think it’s so funny when you said that the staff asked what was in your birth plan and your husband was like, “I have no idea.”Meagan: “I don’t know.”Julie: And the doula was there to help guide you—Meagan: Yes.Julie: –and remind your husband maybe a little bit about what was needed because you certainly weren’t in a place to stand up for yourself and explain everything because labor is just really hard like that. Nobody is in a spot to really be able to do that, but your doula was. Your doula was able to do that for you and I really like how you said that when you weren’t able to communicate for yourself, she would communicate for you, or she would help your husband communicate for you, because that’s something that I really think is important as a doula as well. It’s something that I try to do. It’s hard, sometimes, to find the balancing act between really advocating in the birth room and helping the parents learn how to or remind them of what they want to advocate for, right? And so, I like that you mentioned that she was able to do that because sometimes it’s harder for husbands or other birth partners to be able to remember what you wanted in the moment, and sometimes, just a little nudge from the doula to be like, “Hey, by the way, she didn’t want to push on her back, so let’s just be ready because this provider looks like he might want to make her do that.” And then the husband is like, “Oh yeah. That’s right. I am ready. Let’s do this.” And so it just takes a little gentle nudge and reminder and that’s exactly what doulas are there to help you with as well.Daniela: Yes. That is for sure. I think she was a crucial part of my birth. With this baby that we are going to have in the fall, I told my husband, “Even though it is my third, it’s going to be my second VBAC. You don’t know what birth is going to be like.” You know? My second was very easy, but I don’t know how the third will be. So I said, “We are going to hire her again.” And he was like, “Okay,” because he knew the difference that she made.Meagan: Oh yeah. Yeah. That’s something that my husband said too. We had no doula for my first two C-sections and then we had the doula for my third and my husband was like, “Okay. We are totally done having kids, but I would never do that again without a doula because that was incredible.”Julie: Yeah.Meagan: It brought so much peace for him too.Julie: Yeah. Having someone that knows and is familiar with the birth space, and the birth process, and what is going on really is helpful especially when you already know what is going on in the birth process. You can’t doula yourself. We have been doulas– Meagan was a doula during her VBAC after two C-sections. I was a doula for my second two VBACs, but having somebody that is levelheaded that knows what is going on, that knows what is not an emergency, that everything is normal, and then if things do become a little more urgent, they can help guide you, and steer you, and help you know what options there are, and how to ask questions, and how to communicate with the staff, and all of those sorts of things. So yeah. Lots of great information there about doulas.We have lots of information available about doulas on our blog as well. We will drop some links to evidence for doulas that we have blogs about. There is actually statistical evidence that is documented showing that having a doula in your room present for you can– does, not can. It does reduce your chance of having a C-section by 39% which is huge deal. So don’t take my word for it, go check out our blog. We have links to all of the studies there cited for you so you can go and see them for yourself.Birth AdvocacyJulie: Well, let’s talk a little bit more about birth advocacy for a second and standing up for yourself. I think we kind of already touched on how having somebody like a doula for you that knows what you want, and understands the birth process, and is familiar with it is a really important piece of being able to advocate for yourself and stand up for having a birth that you want, but I really liked during your story, Daniela, how there were a couple of little parts that stuck out to me. Like, during your surgery when you were having your C-section, you kept bringing up that it hurt. I almost got a little bit frustrated when you said the nurse kept asking you, “Does it hurt or do you just feel pressure?” And you were like, “Yeah, it hurts.” Like, how many times did you have to tell them that? But by continuing to speak up for yourself and say that, they were able to resolve it, and get you some medication, and pain relief so that you could actually have that relief and have it resolved later on.It’s really hard to stand up for yourself, sometimes, in the birth space, especially during such an emotional event that is giving birth and being able to do that can be really intimidating for people. I think it is a really important thing and another thing that you can use to attest to the importance of having a birth team that you really trust because imagine how much harder it is with a provider who you don’t like, or you don’t trust, or you don’t believe is going to even believe you. Standing up and advocating for yourself in an environment that is not supportive and that you don’t feel is supportive of your needs and your care is a lot harder to do than standing up for yourself in an environment where you feel supported, believed, and trusted. So I think that’s a really important part of your story that you shared. I also really like how at the end of your story, you talked about you hired your doula. I think you said at 37 weeks, was it?Daniela: Yeah, 37. Yes.Julie: Yeah. I’ve been hired that late before and that’s totally fine. But I liked it because first of all, it shows that it is never too late to hire a doula, but I liked the conversation you had with your husband because I had conversations like that with my husband as well about, “Hey, I know that we can’t really afford this, but this keeps coming back to me as something that is really important and we need to figure out how to make it work.” We’ve had lots of conversations like that throughout our marriage and throughout our relationship, but it’s especially important for something like this your birth experience. If something keeps coming back to you– maybe it’s not hiring a doula. Maybe you don’t hire a doula and it’s okay. You can have a VBAC without a doula. Lots of people do it. But doulas are definitely beneficial during all births, especially for VBAC. But it kept coming up, and it kept coming back to you, and you talked to your husband about it. We were talking about birth advocacy and standing up for yourself in your space, but also, you also had enough confidence obviously, like we hope you do in your relationship with your husband, that you were like, “Okay, listen. This is what needs to happen. This keeps coming back to you” and he supported you in that.Like when you said– I am super paraphrasing right now. I am sure it’s way more complicated than this. But he was like, “Okay. Let’s figure out how to make this work,” and you guys figured it out. I think that that’s a great testament to first of all your determination, and second of all your relationship, and third of all just really honoring that intuition, and following, and trust yourself, and believing in that. All of those things are really important in order to have a birth experience you can look back on and not question your decisions and your choices. “Oh, what if? What if I did this? What if I did that?” So that’s really important. I am proud of you for doing that because I mean, finances are a big reason and a big influencer for a lot of decisions. And a lot of doulas are willing to work out trades, and payment plans, and all sorts of things. I know I certainly am and I have heard a lot of doulas certainly are. You might be surprised as you ask around and figure out whether you can make it work. I don’t know. Meagan, I feel like I’ve been talking forever. What do you have to say about advocacy, or doula work, or all of it, or anything?Meagan: No, yeah. You’re fine. I think I would say exactly what you were saying. So yeah. It’s a hard thing to do, but it is so important. It’s really crucial. Something, I think, during pregnancy, whether you have a doula or not, also don’t 100% rely on that doula to do that either. You have got to prepare yourself and I think really having the education behind VBAC and what you’re wanting to do is going to be important. And then, really in those prenatals, having deep conversations with your provider because if you have these discussions with your provider, it is going to strengthen your relationship so in those moments of, “Oh my gosh, this is hard,” you should hopefully feel like you have that established relationship. And it’s hard when you go in and you don’t even know who’s on call. That’s a difficult thing. But through the practice of advocating for yourself and saying, “This is what I want. This is what I want,” through your prenatal care, it could just truly help you in the birth scenario if that makes sense. Does that make sense? Julie: Yeah. Absolutely. Meagan: Prepare by talking to your provider and all of those things. In our course, we give tons of questions for providers, but just, yeah. Having deep conversations and learning really what matters to you, like, what you want to fight for. Julie: Yeah. I like that. Knowing what’s most important to you. I know birth plans, birth preferences, birth goals, there’s a lot of talk and dialogue about that right now in the birth community and things are shifting a little bit too about that. Don’t go in with a 10-page birth plan with bullet points about every single little detail that you want to happen exactly the way that you want it to because birth just doesn’t go like that. Everything about it is unpredictable, but having some main goals about the most important things to you is what is really going to be able to center your care with your provider and be able to allow that relationship to develop in a natural and organic way so that your provider will be able to best support you to align with those specific goals, and then all of the details will sort themselves out along the way during your birth. Meagan: I just think it’s wonderful. I love your story. I’m so grateful for your sharing it. I am wanting to wish you all the love and luck with baby number three. I’m sure it will just be amazing.Julie: Yeah, absolutely. Fall 2022. You have to let us know how it goes. We’re curious. We’re excited for you. Daniela: I will, for sure. Meagan: Yes. Please, please, please. Okay. Julie: All right, and if you listening now and are interested in how you can prepare with all of the knowledge and information that you need for your own VBAC, we are excited to share this information with you. We have a VBAC preparation course made specifically for you that will teach you everything you never knew you needed to know about VBAC, and VBAC birth, and how to prepare for it. You can find that at thevbaclink.com/shop. Learn everything about the course there and get signed up today. We also have a whole bunch of VBAC-trained and certified doulas on our website as well. You can find them at thevbaclink.com/findadoula. So it’s a twofer for you. We’ve got this course and we’ve got some doulas to help you along on your journey. So head on over to our website, give them a– check them out. Give them a checkout. What was I going to say? Give them a checkout? That makes no sense. Give them a checkout!Meagan: Give them a checkout. Check them out!Julie: And let us know how you like the course, how you’re loving our doulas, and we are excited to hear about your VBAC birth experience. ClosingInterested in sharing your VBAC story on the podcast? Submit your story at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Moana’s first birth left her feeling traumatized, confused, and like a failure. With her next pregnancy, she was determined to find redemption. She became educated on all of the risks and benefits surrounding VBAC, hired a highly supportive birth team, and affirmed to herself that she could do this.Thanks to her preparation, Moana was able to adapt and utilize the birth tools she needed to achieve the beautiful VBAC she desired. We talk about how to build your own “birth toolbox” and why it’s important to allow yourself to use those tools as you need them. And as always, we fully support you in whatever tools you choose to use to have your positive birth experience!Additional linksThe Swiss Army Knife of LaborThe VBAC Link Blog: Natural Birth versus EpiduralFind a VBAC DoulaHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Hello, hello everybody. It’s Meagan and Julie. We are back with you today for episode number two of our return and episode number 183. We have Moana today and we cannot wait to get into her story. A little funny thing— I’m totally going to admit what just happened. We went through everything, and we were getting into the story, and guess what? We forgot to push “Record”. So darn it!Julie: My bad.Meagan: We are restarting, but that’s okay. We are excited. We have Moana with you today. She is from Hawai’i and she is one amazing mama. You guys, she had a 72 hour labor. I’m just going to say that. How stinking amazing! She is a military wife. She is in the Reserves. They have two kiddos. They love being in the sun, and surfing, and living life up in Hawai’i. We can’t wait to hear her stories in just a second. Review of the Week Meagan: We’re going to hurry and turn over the time to Julie because as usual, we are going to have that Review of the Week. We really love your reviews and now that we’re kicking the podcast off again, we’re going to need some more. So feel free to drop us a review on Google or send us a review, whatever it may be. We would love, love, love to read your review on the podcast. Alright, Julie.Julie: Oh my gosh. I am such a nerd. I cannot believe it. I am going to have to put a sticky note in the middle of the computer again and be like, “Push ‘Record’!” so I don’t forget.Second of all, Meagan, you say Hawai’i like, “Ha-WHY. She’s from Ha-WHY.”Meagan: Ha-waii. I don’t say, “Hawai’i.”Julie: Oh, so funny.Meagan: I know. I don’t say it correctly. I don’t even know.Julie: It’s funny. Okay. Oh my gosh. I need to stop talking, so I’ll just read this review and then we can have Moana start her story again. Oh my gosh. So, so sorry. Alright.Okay, so this review is from hnp1213 on Apple Podcasts and she says “So thankful. As I prepare for my HBAC this coming September, this podcast has helped me heal so much from my previous C-section. I’ve laughed, I’ve cried, and I’ve celebrated with so many of their stories. Thank you for creating an uplifting and empowering podcast for those of us looking for our redemption birth.”No thank you, hnp1213, and thank you, Meagan and Moana, for being patient with me while we have to restart this over. Alright.Moana’s storyMeagan: Okay, Moana. We want to dive back into your story because it’s a great one.Moana: Alright. So my husband and I got married in 2016. I was 22 and he was 23. We waited about three years to have a baby and I didn’t realize I was pregnant for a while. I was just kind of feeling sick at work and this guy actually told me, “Hey, I think you’re pregnant.” I was like, “No, no. There’s no way.” So I went and took a test and sure enough, two lines came up right away. It was super dark and I was like, “Oh, wow. I must not be early.”So I scheduled an appointment with my provider and sure enough, I was eight weeks along already. That was pretty exciting. My husband actually wasn’t even home at the time. I had to video call him. He was in the Middle East. I was like, “Hey, are you ready to be a dad?” And he was like, “Yeah, I guess.” I’m like, “No, I mean right now.” I showed him my test and he was like, “What?” Yeah.Meagan: “No, I mean right now!” That is awesome. “No, I mean you’re gonna be a dad so let me rephrase that.”Moana: Right, yep.Meagan: I love it. That’s awesome.Moana: Yeah. So yeah. He was super excited. I was just chugging along, had to keep going to work and I was super sick– puking all of the time, day and night. I was like, “Oh, I guess I know the baby is okay because my hormones are strong.”Meagan: Yeah.Moana: Up until the first and second trimester. Finally in the third trimester, I had just started to feel better, but then I just started to feel big, so one traded off for the other.Meagan: Mhmm.Moana: Yep. I made it all the way to 40 weeks and my provider was like, “Hey, I want to do an induction today.” I was like, “No. I don’t think I want to do that,” and she was pretty pushy about it. I told her, “Hey, the baby is fine and it’s just an estimated due date, you know? Maybe they didn’t even get it right.” She wasn’t too happy about that, so she said she was going to schedule an induction for 41 weeks. I told her, “Okay, but I am probably not going to go to the hospital and do it that day either.” So 41 weeks came and yeah. I told her, “No. I really don’t want to induce,” and she wasn’t too happy about it, but I just went home anyway. About three days later, I finally went into labor.I went to work that day. I just had contractions on and off. I tried to walk around a lot. I went home that night and they started getting stronger, but then they stayed about five minutes apart for a few hours. So I called my doctor and told her, “Hey. My progression doesn’t feel normal. What do you think?” She told me to go into the hospital. We got there at about 11:00 p.m. and I was only a centimeter and a half dilated, but she said she didn’t want me to leave because I was so far along in my pregnancy, which I didn’t really understand because I know from most people that if you are not about 5-6 centimeters, they usually turn you away.So we just labored, my husband and I, together in the hospital and no one really helped us out, or gave us any tips, or anything. We had no idea what we were doing. We were just like, “Oh, you know, everyone has babies. It just happens. Whatever.” Meagan: That’s kind of how I approached my birth too. I was like, “Well, I don’t know. People have babies every day, so I’m just going to go have a baby, right?”Moana: Right. Exactly. So yeah. We just kind of walked around prayed. We tried to use the birth ball. It is a teaching hospital too, so they were like, “Oh, can students come in?” And I was like, “Sure, I guess. I don’t know if they just want to see me in pain or whatever.” And so I kept laboring until the next day. I only got to about 5 centimeters and my contractions had gotten a little bit closer together, but I was just really in a lot of pain and it was really getting hard for me to cope. I would come to find out later it was because he was turning from sunny-side up back over and apparently, that’s pretty painful– almost like transition type level of pain when you are going through that.But at the time, I had no idea. I was just like, “Oh man. This is getting crazy.” I got an epidural and then about an hour later, it failed. My baby’s heart rate was crashing every time I had a contraction– really, really low and then it would come back up, but they were getting really worried. They called my doctor on the phone and she was like, “Okay. I am going to come in. We are going to do a C-section.” I was like, “No, no. I don’t want that if I don’t need it.” I really didn’t understand what was going on. They didn’t really explain if it was really dangerous for the baby or for me or anything like that. About thirty minutes to an hour went by and then his heart rate just crashed completely, so they just ripped us out of the room. They rushed us to the OR. I had no idea what was going on. I was looking at my husband who was just kind of standing there because they didn’t tell him to come or anything. They were just moving super fast. I think from the time his heart crashed to them getting him out was about 12 minutes.It was just so shocking. I could feel the hands inside of me. I remember I kept asking, “Is my baby okay? Is my baby okay?” and they wouldn’t answer me. I was crying and it was just this huge mess. I was just in so much shock. Thankfully, I heard him cry when they took him out and they had let my husband come in. I remember looking at him and looking at the baby. I was happy in my heart, but outwardly, I was in so much pain, and shock, and all of this stuff, that all I could do was just kind of moan and cry, and then I ended up passing out for a little bit.My husband got to help cut the rest of his cord off since they had to cut it right there at the table. I woke up a few hours later and I was just so upset that I didn’t get to hold my baby right away, and feed him, and do all of the stuff. I was so out of it still that I couldn’t really speak for a while, but I was able to hold him. So they handed him to me and I didn’t actually know he was a boy. We waited to find out, so that was a nice surprise after all this trauma went down.Julie: Oh, how fun.Moana: Yeah. And he was really good. He nursed right away and our postpartum was really great. I couldn’t have asked for a better baby. He was super calm and he nursed really well. We were just so happy. He was finally here.My doctor, though, was telling me, “Oh, do you guys want to leave today? You are taking a room for other patients,” but when we had walked around the wing, there were plenty of other open rooms. I don’t know why she was really pushy to get me out of the hospital, but I told her, I was like, “Oh, no. I don’t feel all that ready. I am still in a lot of pain. I can barely walk.” She was like, “Well, why don’t you just take the narcotics?” I told her, “No. I don’t want to do that. I will take Tylenol and Motrin, but I really don’t want to take anything stronger because of the way I reacted to the anesthesia.” So I told her, I was like, “Hey, just give us another day.” And so actually, the baby‘s pediatrician wrote up something on his chart so that we had a reason to stay one more day. But yeah, my doctor was fairly pushy and she made us feel bad. She was like, “Are you scared to go home or something like that?” That made my husband pretty mad too.Julie: Interesting.Moana: We were like, “No. I’m just not physically recovered enough yet,” because it was pretty violent when they had to pull him out. He had already descended a bit, so they actually had to pull him back out first and then get him up and out. So yeah. But anyway, so that was our first birth. Like I said, thankfully, postpartum was really great, but I knew I never, ever wanted to have a C-section again after that. So I was like, “Okay. I am going to get informed this time. I am going to read all of this stuff.” I found your guys’ podcast and it was really awesome listening to everyone’s birth stories, and just really getting educated on your options, and body, and all this stuff. I actually hired a midwife to go over my chart with me because I needed closure on my first birth because I really still didn’t understand what happened and why I had a C-section, so she went over everything with me. She actually told me, “Hey. You had a placental abruption.” My doctor never even talked to me about that or said that that had happened. I always thought I did something wrong and that was why it happened. But she said, “Oh, no. You can’t really prevent these or predict it and you were hemorrhaging, so the crash C-section had to happen.” So that gave me a lot of closure on that and she said, “You know, you are a really good candidate for a VBAC.”That really made me super excited. I just was like, “Okay. I want to do this.” I ended up getting pregnant again at 14 months postpartum which was great because I knew right away. I was so excited, like, “Okay. I am going to really get prepared for my VBAC this time.” I was sick again for the first two trimesters, but then in the third trimester, I felt really good and I was working out all the time. I hired a doula from Best Birth Hawaii and she was really great. She just gave me so much comfort and extra knowledge, and it was just so nice to feel like I had someone on my side who could speak up for me. I also had changed providers at this time too and he had done hundreds of VBACs before, so I just went into this birth super confident. I just knew, “Hey, I am going to do this and I know I can do it.”I went into labor at 39 weeks and 3 days and I was super excited for that too because I was like, “Man, I really don’t want to go past 40 weeks. I hope this baby can come early.” So yeah. It was a Wednesday and I started early labor. It was kind of slow at first, so I just tried to take the time to relax and maybe get a nap in. It really became hard to sleep that night though, and so I just kept trying to do what I could– walking around, kept moving and resting on Thursday. Then Friday, my doula finally came to the house and she helped me through a lot of active labor. At about 3:00 p.m. that Friday, we were like, “Okay. I think it’s time to go to the hospital.” So we were super excited. My husband and I made it to the hospital. We labored some more, but eventually, I was in so much pain and I hadn’t slept, so I just needed to get some rest. I said, “Okay. Let’s try an epidural.” I got it and then it was really weird. I felt a click in my back and I got really scared that they did something wrong because my leg twitched too and it didn’t really work. It took the edge off, but I could still move. They were like, “Oh, what happened?” I was like, “Oh, I am not really sure,” but I finally got a nap in. I kept moving around and I was like, “Oh, I think it failed,” and then all the pain came back. I labored a few more hours like that and then we tried a second one. Now I was about 8 centimeters dilated. That one only worked for about an hour and it failed too. We were pressing the button and I’m like, “I don’t know why it’s not working.”Julie: Oh my gosh.Moana: Yeah. So that was pretty crazy. I was really confused and I was so tired. I was like, “Man, I am so jealous of women who have two-hour labors or even eight-hour labors,” You know? I was like, “Oh.” My doula was like, “Don’t think about that.” And I’m like, “Okay. I guess I am getting the natural delivery that I wanted,” because, in my heart, I was like, “Man. I just want to be able to do it without interventions and without pain relief,” so I guess that ended up happening in the end. So I started having them help me move around a little bit, lay on my side with the peanut ball, and then I got the squat bar, and we were just doing all the things that we could with the limitation from having the epidural even though it wasn’t working anymore. By the time it came to push, I was like, “Man, I am in so much pain. I am just going to get this baby out.” In less than seven minutes of pushing, he came out. Again, we didn’t know it was a boy, actually. So that was another nice surprise.I pushed, pushed, and pushed as hard as I could, and then I got him out. I just felt so much relief and excitement. I was bawling and I cried so hard. My husband was like, “It’s a boy! It’s a boy!” I reached down to grab him up and he made a few little cries and nursed right away, and we had the skin-to-skin contact. It was just so redeeming and beautiful. Oh, I just want to cry thinking about it. But yeah. I was just so amazed that I was able to do it and now I know that my body can do it. And yeah. I couldn’t believe that it actually happened. And so now, I’m about 11 months postpartum and still breastfeeding. Actually, my first baby never stopped breastfeeding, so I’m trying to wean him right now because he’s almost three. I plan to wean the second one by no later than two years old. But we are hoping to have more kids so I’m just excited to be able to hopefully have another VBAC and just continue our journey, and keep being informed, and telling other people too like my friends who are having babies now and stuff like, “You can do it. You don’t have to be afraid of anything.” There’s so much information out there. I think even the medical world is changing too. VBACs are becoming more okay. They’re not turning away from it. More people are saying now, “Hey. This is good. It’s less risk for a mom in most cases.” So that’s just our crazy, traumatic story followed by a long, long labor and thankfully, we ended with a successful VBAC. Julie: Yeah. I love that. Oh my gosh. Such a great story. I love how patient you were in not finding out the gender of your babies! Oh my gosh. Like, I tried. I tried. Or I guess I didn’t really try at all. I am a sucker and I’m impatient. And so I’m not very good at waiting to know. I wanted to wait for my last, but I could not hold out. I didn’t even make it to 20 weeks before I had to run and make it to my gender scan. Let’s be honest. But I think that is so, so fun.To Epidural or Not to Epidural?I want to talk a little bit about epidurals and why I think sometimes it’s really easy for people to think– especially when you’re going in and planning for a VBAC, and you want to do everything you can in order to set yourself up for success, and everybody’s telling you, “Oh my gosh. Hire a doula. Have an unmedicated birth. Make sure you don’t go to the hospital until you’re pushing. Make sure you don’t get induced. Make sure you don’t do this. Don’t do that. Don’t do this. Don’t do that. And this.” Right?There are so many things telling you what not to do. It’s really important to remember that nothing is inherently good or inherently bad. All interventions have an appropriate time and place and even having no interventions can turn out to not be a good thing. And so I want to talk a little bit about epidurals. I think, oh my gosh. I don’t even know how long ago, but it was a while ago in our Facebook group. I did a video or a Facebook Live in our Facebook group about– I called it, “The Swiss Army Knife of Birth.” Maybe you can go to our Facebook group. It’s called The VBAC Link Community and you could do a search for it. I think it’s maybe just referred to as “The Swiss Army Knife of Birth” or something like that. “Coping Tools for Labor”, I’m not sure exactly. Maybe I’ll link it in the show notes. I’m probably going to have to link it in the show notes as I’ve been talking about it. But it talks about having a little tool kit of just a bunch of different random things that you might need to have available for you when you’re in labor. An epidural might be one of the things you want to have available for you in your toolkit for coping with the discomforts of labor and it’s neither inherently good nor inherently bad. Being able to have something available for you to make a decision like the acronym, “B.R.A.I.N.”-- so using the Benefits, the Risks, Alternatives, your Intuition, and what happens if you do Nothing– to go through at the time to make a decision.Meagan: Hey, can you help me clean up your room? Sorry, guys. Sorry. Sorry.Julie: Meagan! You are not on mute! Meagan: I’m sorry! No, I’m not. I didn’t know. I was like, “Hey. Clean up your room!” I’m even whispering. Okay, sorry. Julie: Mute yourself, girl. Meagan: I’m muted. Well, now I am. Julie: No, you’re not. Now you are. Okay. Oh my gosh, what was I saying? So epidural has risks and benefits like every other coping tool in labor. Benefits of an epidural– I’m sure Meagan has seen the same as me. Sometimes, we see epidurals relax mom enough to where she progresses, and is able to dilate further, and push her baby out relatively quickly. Sometimes, not quickly. Sometimes, it takes a little while longer.Meagan: Yeah. Julie: But it’s exactly what the laboring person needs in order for the body to progress further because let’s be honest. If you’ve been laboring for a really long time, your body’s completely exhausted. It’s not going to labor effectively. Meagan: Well, and something else, too, I was going to mention, Julie. Sorry to cut you off–Julie: Yeah. No, go ahead. Megan: Not only physically, but sometimes when we get an epidural, it’s also so our mind can emotionally be present because sometimes when we’re laboring, especially for a long time, it’s like, “I don’t know how much longer I can do this. If this is hard now, is it going to get harder?” Our minds keep going to the future and things like that. It’s so great to get that epidural sometimes and just let your mind shut off and be present, and then your body can just do its job. Julie: Yeah, that’s a really good point. That's a very good point. I’ve seen that before as well myself. We’ve also seen epidurals really limit how much a parent is able to move while they’re in labor and also how much, sometimes, hospital staff is willing to be able to let the parent move. Sometimes, it can change the entire mood of the room at that point. Also, I’ve seen it affect the mind negatively. If a parent is really, really set on having an unmedicated birth without an epidural, it can give them the feeling of, “Oh no. I gave up. I didn’t achieve this goal that I had in mind.” And so being able to go into birth instead of with a specific set of things you want to accomplish, but having it be a little more fluid and flexible, and being willing to adjust your goals as necessary, I think, is really important as well. One little thing that might not go to your expectations has the possibility to shift your entire mindset and mood. It is so important to be able to keep your hormones balanced and everything to go well as well. So I don't know. Meagan, what would you add about epidurals? Meagan: I feel like there’s so much shame in epidural and also like, “Oh, if I get an epidural, I’m giving up. I’m failing.” There’s just so much and I don’t like it. I don’t like it at all. I think that epidurals have a bad rap and yes, are there some serious pros to going unmedicated? Yeah, there are. There are some great pros. But there are also some serious pros of having an epidural, and enjoying the experience, and getting the rest, and also letting your body progress the way it may not be able to at that moment unmedicated. So I hope that if you are preparing for a VBAC or for birth in general, try not to put so much negative–Julie: PressureMeagan: Negative pressure, yeah, when it comes to an epidural because it is okay. It is okay to have an epidural. Like we said, it can be the magic tool in your toolbox. We have lots of tools in our toolbox. Whether we use them or not, they’re there and it’s okay to use them.There’s never been a time where I’ve tried to use a screwdriver when I need an Allen wrench on my bike, right? I need to raise my seat up and I need an Allen wrench. I don’t need a screwdriver. There are different tools for different situations and for birth, an epidural is a great tool that is in the toolbox and it’s okay to use it. Julie: Absolutely. Absolutely, yep. And of course, we have a blog all about natural birth and epidural, and comparing both of those things. Like Moana said, her epidural had a hard time getting it to work and that is one of the risks that can come along with an epidural. Sometimes, it doesn’t work all the way or right off the bat. You might need to have an anesthesiologist come and make some adjustments, so you might need to be careful with that. But let me tell you, when I first started out as a doula, I was kind of like, really gungho, 100%, unmedicated birth all the way, that’s the only way to do this, but man, life has a way of teaching you lessons. And every once in a while, I’ll have a client look at me in the eyes and look at me and be like, “I think I need an epidural. I feel, like–” Oh my gosh. They almost feel like they need permission to get one. Does that make sense? Meagan, do you know what I’m talking about?Meagan: Totally. Totally. Yes, it does. They ask. Julie: Like, letting me down if they get one?Meagan: Yeah. There was actually a birth that I was at and the epidural came into my mind. It kind of went from–Julie: But you don’t also want to be the first one to bring it up either, right?Meagan: I know, but I did. I did. It was suffering. It went to suffering. She was suffering and one of the biggest things she said when we talked about her goals was to have a positive experience. And when you are past that point, you’re not going to have a positive experience. You’re just not. Julie: Yeah. It could lead to more birth trauma and that could introduce that. Meagan: Totally. Totally. So I just said, “Hey. Why don’t we talk about some options right now?” And we went over it and I did say epidural. She said, “I’ve been wanting someone to say that for the last four hours.” She said, “I didn’t feel I could. I didn’t feel I could.” And the fact that you just said that makes me think, “Okay. It’s okay.” And I’m like, “No. It’s totally okay.” You know? It’s totally okay, but she didn’t feel that that was okay because her goal was to not. Julie: Mhmm. Meagan: It was to not, but it’s okay. Julie: It’s okay to change plans. Meagan: It’s okay to change plans. It’s okay to adapt. Julie: And it’s okay to just go into your birth wanting an epidural from the start. It is okay to do that too. Meagan: Yes. Yeah. So, I love Moana’s story. I can’t say enough about, “Hey. It’s okay. Don't let it get you down if you get an epidural and you didn't want one.”Julie: But it’s also okay to want a completely unmedicated birth and it’s also okay to have one. I mean, both Meagan and I have had unmedicated VBACs, but we’ve also seen the beauty in all types of birth stories no matter how they unfold and no matter what the outcome is. We support you in however you want to birth. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Moana. Thank you so much. Moana: Yeah. Thank you, guys. I appreciate the opportunity to tell my story. Thanks for all you guys do. I mean, if I didn’t find this podcast, I don’t know if I would have been as confident going in. And like you guys said, knowing that it’s okay to want an epidural because I really did feel like that during my first birth. Even my husband kind of made me feel guilty about it and some of our family, and I really felt like I failed at that point. And just knowing that it was okay going into my second birth, I’m like, “Okay. If it gets to that point, I’m not going to feel bad about that. I’m just going to do it.” That just took one element of stress away from the birthing process. Meagan. Yeah. Yeah. Moana’s VBAC Prep TipJulie: Yeah. I love that. Moana, you know we can’t let you leave without us asking you one question. What is your best tip for somebody as they are preparing to birth after a Cesarean?Moana: I would say definitely get educated and hire a doula if you can because she just instilled so much confidence in me. Even though maybe I didn’t need her there or maybe I did, just emotionally for me, it was so necessary. I told her right afterward when I had my second one that, “I could not have done this without you. You just gave me something that I would have never been able to do myself.” Especially because of my trauma from my first birth, even though I had coped with it, I still just didn’t have the confidence that I had when she was there with me. Julie: I love that. Get educated and hire a doula, and wouldn’t you know? We have opportunities to do both on our website, thevbaclink.com. We have a VBAC preparation course that is designed to help you gain the full confidence that you need in order to have all of the tools in your toolkit on your birthing day. We also have a directory of VBAC doulas that we have educated on all of the things that you never nuded?Meagan: –that you’d never know you’d need.Julie: We have a directory of VBAC doulas fully trained and educated to perfectly support you on your birthing day. You can find our VBAC doulas at thevbaclink.com/findadoula. Everything you need you can find right on our website, thevbaclink.com. We’ll see you there. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience on thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

After a LONG break, The VBAC Link podcast is back again! We have missed hearing your stories and feeling inspired by your strength. We promise that you will smile, cry, and celebrate with Francis as she shares her beautiful heart with us today. While pregnant with her hopeful VBA2C baby, Francis created these birth goals:“I wish for a healthy mother and baby, both physically and emotionally. For my intuition to guide me and to be trusted by those around me. For labor to begin and continue as hands-off as possible and to feel heard, empowered, and respected.”She strived for an empowering birth experience no matter what the outcome was, which only made her successful VBA2C that much sweeter. We also discuss why you shouldn’t be afraid to birth a big baby and how your intuition can be your greatest asset in the birth room.   Additional linksThe VBAC Link Blog: Get That Big Baby OutThe VBAC Link Shirt ShopThe VBAC Link on Apple PodcastsHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words.  Julie: Welcome to The VBAC Link podcast. We have Francis with us today. And my gosh! I did not sing. I was going to sing a song, “Guess who’s back, back again?” Oh, yes. I was going to sing it. I was going to sing it, but I did not sing it. Meagan: Guess who’s back? Julie: Back again. Meagan: Oh, I love it. Julie: Julie’s back. And Meagan! Meagan: Yeah! Julie: Dang it. I sang it. Gosh. The only other time I have sang on the podcast was when I sang myself “Happy Birthday” for me in Korean on my birthday episode. That was fun. Do you remember that? Meagan: Yeah, that was forever ago. Julie: That was super fun. Julie: Oh my gosh. We are back! Meagan: We’re back! Julie: It’s been a while. Meagan: Yes it has. Julie: Holy cow. Meagan: We have had a lot going on, but it feels good. It feels really good. It feels a little weird and out of sync, but I am excited to be back. I’m sitting here. I’m so excited to have guests again. I’m excited to be with you. It’s going to be great. Julie: Wow. So much has happened since we aired our last episode. Do you want to just kind of give a couple little things about what you have been up to and I’ll do the same, and then we will get into our story? Meagan: Yeah. My life is always crazy with children. What have I been up to? Gymnastics meets, soccer games, working on children’s mental health. COVID impacted my kids more than I ever even realized. And so, working with kids and their mental health, getting ready to move– a sporadic, spontaneous move. Yeah. Working with my husband, just letting him work, doing doula stuff for my doula business, hiring new doulas. It’s been a lot but it’s been great. Julie: Yeah. Holy cow. I know all that already and I am starting to feel a little bit overwhelmed for you. Kind of the same for me, keeping up with kids. My oldest has had some mental and physical health struggles as well, and so lots of things going on for him, and soccer, and gymnastics. My oldest two boys are doing bouldering classes, so learning how to climb big rocks. Meagan: That’s awesome. Julie: I know. It’s super fun. Super fun for them. And I actually have shifted in my role in the birth work field and I am a birth photographer now. So still a little bit of doula-ing, but birth photography mostly and that’s been really fun. I really love it a lot. Meagan: And you’re great. You’re so great at it too. Julie: Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Yeah. It’s been really fun. Really interesting, but it’s also kind of like starting a whole new business while restarting everything with The VBAC Link so it’s kind of been a lot. We have been up to a lot recently. So thanks everybody for hanging in there with us while we took a little bit of a break to catch up, and maintain, and restart some things in our busy lives. We appreciate everybody for supporting us while we were hanging out in the background for just a little bit, but we’re back. Meagan: We’re back. Julie: We’re back. Review of the Week Alright, as always, we have to start the episode with a review of the week. Thank you so much, everybody, for leaving reviews. We love them so much and Meagan is going to share one with us right now. Meagan: Yes. We have a review from holmclaugh90 and the title is “I listen every single day.” It says, “After a traumatic cesarean with my first baby five years ago and multiple miscarriages in between, this is a breath of fresh air as I await my chance to have a VBAC this October with my second. Love every story I hear on this podcast and it makes me feel so much stronger in knowing that I can do this.” I love it. Julie: I love it too. I love it. Meagan: That was in July of last year, so she definitely has had a baby. So holmclaugh90, if you are still listening, email us at [email protected]. We would love to know how your birth went. Julie: Yeah. Or tag us in your birth story on Instagram or Facebook and we can share it. Meagan: Yeah. Francis’ Story Meagan: Alright. Julie: Alright. Meagan: I can’t wait for this new story. Julie: I know. We are really excited. We are bringing it back with a classic story about– can you guess? Drumroll please. Big babies! Meagan: I was gonna say, VBAC with a big baby. Julie: VBAC with a big baby, and we are also going to sprinkle in some talk about maternal mental health, and the importance of trauma processing, and working through prior births, and some cholestasis there for a little bit of variety. But before we do that, I want to introduce our guest, Francis. Francis is a married mother of three from Raleigh, North Carolina. She balances motherhood with a full-time job in international business. Wow. Really need to hear more about that. She enjoys swimming, CrossFit, outdoor adventuring, and traveling. So Francis, welcome. Thank you so much for being with us. We cannot wait to hear more about your story. Why don’t you go ahead and tell us a little bit more? Francis: Sure. Well first of all, it’s so good to be with you guys. I am so glad that you’re back doing this. Julie: Thank you. Francis: It was just such a resource that I used in my pregnancy, and so I am so glad that there are more episodes for women to listen to, and hopefully be inspired by, and learn from. You guys are just amazing and congratulations on all that you guys have been up to. And Julie, I think that’s awesome that you are doing birth photography. We had a birth photographer at all three of our births and it’s just something that I hold so precious and dear to my heart. So I think it’s incredible that you are doing that and giving that back to moms as well. Julie: Aw, thank you. Meagan: I would totally agree with you. It’s actually one of my biggest regrets not having one at my birth. I wish so badly that I had someone there to take more pictures and videos so I could experience it from a different perspective too. Francis: Yeah. Meagan: Because when you are in the thick of it, it’s hard to even comprehend what is happening. I wish I could have just seen, I don’t know. I wish I could’ve seen it from a different angle. But yeah. She’s awesome. Francis: Yeah. And you know, it’s funny. I didn’t even think about this as part of my birth story when I was thinking about it, but we did have a birth photographer with all three of my births and as you’ll hear, my first two births did not go as planned, but I still have the photographs from that and it actually really did help in my healing when I had the courage to go through them to look back and see, you know what? Even though this didn’t go as I thought it might, there is still a lot of beauty in my births. Meagan: Absolutely. Yeah. Francis: So I think it is for any woman. To have that moment captured is special, no matter how the birth turns out. You know? Julie: Yeah, I love that. Thank you. Francis: Yeah. Julie: Nice plug-in. Francis: Yeah I know, right? So speaking of– my first pregnancy was in 2012 and prior to getting pregnant, I had been introduced to homebirth by my sister who had a really beautiful homebirth for herself. Prior to her having a homebirth, I honestly didn’t really know that that was a thing that people were doing. I just assumed everyone had hospital births and that was just the way it was. And so when I saw her experience and I educated myself on what a homebirth was, I decided I really wanted that for myself. So after I got pregnant, I looked into having a homebirth, but unfortunately in the state where I am at, it’s not real easy for midwives to operate in a homebirth setting. So it wasn’t in the cards for me, but I did find a freestanding birth center that was about 30 minutes from my home staffed by midwives and then backed up by physicians where I could give birth. I hired a really amazing doula and took a Birthing From Within class with her, and then I hired the birth photographer. We had everything lined up. My pregnancy was super easy and very normal up until I got to about 40 weeks and started stressing out, like a lot of moms do. I knew it was normal and natural to go past 40 weeks, but I don’t know. I guess I just thought it would never happen to me. I don’t know. But I started to get really stressed out. I hit 41 weeks and my provider wanted to do an ultrasound to check the fluid and check in on baby. Everything was healthy, but they did end up measuring my baby and they estimated that my baby was over 12 pounds. So as you can imagine, I really started to freak out. My provider was still supportive and supportive of me trying for a natural birth at the birth center if I could go into labor on my own, but I do know that it planted some seeds of doubt both with them and honestly within myself. But I do know that women birth big babies all the time and that ultrasounds can be wrong.  So we moved forward. I luckily ended up going into labor on my own right before I hit 42 weeks. I had a long labor, but it was steady. I was at the birth center and everything was normal, kind of until it wasn’t. I didn’t know this at the time, but I ended up basically stalling at 8 centimeters for a number of hours and then my labor basically stopped. And so we decided to go to the hospital which was really devastating to transfer, but I knew it was necessary at that point. So we transferred. I did get an epidural and some Pitocin to try to pick things back up. But at this point, it had been 36 hours and I was just kind of ready to be over it. There was this question mark of how big my baby was and maybe my baby really wasn’t going to fit. So I consented to a Cesarean and my baby did end up being really big. He was a surprise gender. He was a boy and he was 11 lbs. 2 oz. So not quite 12, but still really big. Meagan: Wow. Julie: Really big baby. Meagan: Yeah. Julie: That’s a big, chunky baby. Francis: Yeah, exactly. So my Cesarean was fine. You know, physically I was fine. My recovery wasn’t bad. But I mentally struggled as I know a lot of Cesarean moms do. I was just really disappointed in the outcome. I went from really wanting a homebirth, to then being at the birth center, to then transferring to the hospital, and then having a Cesarean. I felt like a failure. And I know looking back now that I wasn’t, but it felt that way at the time. I’ve been a physically active person my whole life, and so I think for the first time ever, I really felt like my body failed me. That was really hard. I had a hard time swallowing that. I also felt guilt. I felt like it was my fault, like maybe I ate too much pie and that’s why I had an 11 pound baby. Or maybe I should have kept trying at the birth center and not gone to the hospital. But either way, you know, it worked out the way it did. We were healthy, and that, of course, is the most important thing. But I was really– I did struggle for a while with that birth and just processing everything that I went through. Fast forward a couple of years later, my husband and I decided that we were ready for another. I had regained some confidence in myself and in my body, and decided that I did want to go for a VBAC. I was able to go back to the birth center midwives from my prior pregnancy, but in my state, you can’t do VBAC out of the hospital, so they have admitting privileges in the hospital. So I knew it meant an automatic hospital birth which was disappointing because again, I really didn’t want to be in a hospital environment, but I didn’t have much of a choice. But I found the midwives were really supportive and I was ready to go. We had the same doula and the same photographer, and everything was really great. And then at right about 40 weeks, I got cholestasis, which, I know you guys have covered on the podcast before, but it causes insane itching and it can be harmful to the baby. So at that point, we decided I really needed to be induced. That was, again, really devastating, I had hoped to be able to go into labor on my own and labor at home as long as possible before going to the hospital, but having an induction that I knew in my heart was really medically necessary, I had to be at the hospital.  I am super grateful our midwife group– I didn’t know a whole lot about VBAC protocol at the time with induction, but what I know now, I know that they really followed it to a T. We did a low and slow induction. We did a Foley and very gentle Pitocin. I was honestly kind of on and off Pitocin for about three days trying to get this baby to come out. At the end of the third day, I think I had gotten to 3 centimeters. I got a cervical check and they felt my baby‘s ear instead of the top of her head, so she was almost completely sideways. Julie: Oh wow. Francis: Yeah. So that was obviously quite unexpected. We spent a little bit of time with the doula and the midwife trying to sort of shimmy and shake and get her to move, but after some time, it just wasn’t happening. I had already been there over three days. We had a toddler that was being shuffled around between family at home. I just knew in my heart at that point it was time to consent to another Cesarean. That was a super difficult decision, but honestly, I came to it really feeling genuinely supported and that I had been involved in the decision making every step of the way, so it wasn’t a bad experience. Rght about that time, the concept of family-centered Cesareans was coming to the forefront, and so I was able to have a really gentle Cesarean. I did have a clear drape. I think I was the second person at this hospital to have a clear drape and it was fine.  Again, I did end up having another really big baby. This was also a surprise gender. It was a girl. She was 10 lbs. 10 oz. So at that point, I realized I just grow really giant babies. Again, processing the Cesarean was difficult, but probably not as difficult as the first time just because I had been so well supported by everybody. You know? So after that, life moved on. My husband and I weren’t entirely sure that we were done having kids, but pretty sure we were done having kids, and so I just fell into life. You know, work, being a mom. I unfortunately had a couple of really difficult personal situations that came about during the couple of years after my daughter was born. The biggest one being my mother was diagnosed with cancer and then passed away. That was really difficult. Meagan: Yeah. That’s heavy. Heavy, heavy. Francis: Yes. Yeah, very. Meagan: I’m sorry. Francis: Thank you. I decided I really needed to take some time to work on myself. You know? So I found an amazing counselor who I went and saw very frequently. We just spent a lot of time processing everything. Some of that, of course, was my births, and processing the trauma of my births, and just those feelings of failure, and disappointment, and guilt. And then, we just spent a lot of time processing everything else that life throws at you. Through that, one of the things, and probably the most important thing, that I learned was that I have really good instincts. I think that honestly, most of us do, especially mothers. We have really good instincts, but it takes some time, and some practice, and some patience to learn how to trust them and how to follow them. Going through all of the counseling really helped teach me how to lean in to my intuition and how to trust my gut. That was an experience that just has obviously helped me in every area of life. Julie: That’s such a valuable thing to learn. Francis: Yeah. Julie: It’s a hard way to learn it, but it’s such a good skill to have and a good thing that came out of that. Francis: Yeah, exactly. Yep. So I was in a really good place and then 2020 happened, right? The pandemic and then in July 2020, I found myself surprised pregnant. Obviously, my husband and I had not closed the door on having children, but we weren’t really planning on it. So when I found out I was pregnant, it was a bit of a shock. Honestly, it took us a little bit of time to really get excited about it. It was just such a surprise that we weren’t really sure how to feel about it, but eventually, we did come to be very surprised. To be honest, I didn’t know right away whether I wanted to try for a VBAC again. And honestly, I didn’t know whether it was an option for me, like whether the hospital would allow me to or whether my personal circumstances were right for a VBAC. So I started doing a little bit of research and then seeking out some opinions and taking into consideration my personal circumstances. And I do have, like I’ve mentioned, I have a history of big babies. I had cholestasis in my last pregnancy. I had this “failed VBAC”. I was almost 40 years old and was just like, “I don’t know. Is this a good idea for me to try for a VBAC? What happens if I fail again? What does that mean?” So I really spent some time thinking about it and I did briefly check out a different healthcare provider just to see if maybe a change in my provider would be helpful. Also, this one was a bit closer to my house. I’ll never forget at that first appointment, I was just trying to feel out what my options would be and they said to me, verbatim, “No doctor at this hospital will ever support you in a VBAC.” I just remember thinking like– I didn’t know a lot at that time about a VBAC after two Cesareans, but I knew that that didn’t feel right. Meagan: Yeah. Francis: Yeah. That like, “Wait. I don’t have a decision in what happens to my body?” I knew that didn’t feel right. And so I decided. I was like, “Okay. I’m not going to stay with this practice. Let me do more research and let me seek out additional opinions.” So I ended up going back to the midwives with the birth center that I had been with before for my prior two pregnancies. And again, they only do VBAC in the hospital. I inquired with them whether they would take me on and they said, “Yes.” They did share some of the same concerns as me, but ultimately they did support me in being a part of the process and making a decision of what happens with me and my baby. So at that point, that’s when I found you guys. Meagan: That’s really how it should be, by the way. When you said that, it reminded me of my conversation with my old doctor. I went to go get my medical records and he said, “Good luck. No one is going to want you out there.” And it was like, “Okay.” And it wasn’t even like, “Yeah. Let’s talk about it,” or “Let me tell you why I don’t feel comfortable with it.” You know? Francis: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Well, anyways. Yeah. I felt that someone shouldn’t be making that choice for me. If I choose not to try for a VBAC, that’s my choice. But for someone else to just say, “No. You must have major surgery.” It just didn’t feel right and it didn’t sit well with me. Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Francis: But luckily, I was able to go back to my previous provider and find support. I know a lot of women don’t find that, so I was really lucky in that regard. At that point, that’s when I really, really start a diving deep into VBAC research and that’s when I found you guys. I looked at all of the research you put out. I started listening to your podcasts and all of the other stories, and it really gave me strength and confidence.  One of, perhaps, I think the most important things is in listening to other women’s stories, it opened my eyes to this possibility of this perfect “birth” that I had in my head before. It didn’t have to be like that. I could accept a hospital birth or I could accept interventions and that could still be a beautiful birth. It doesn’t have to be this like, I don’t know, what you see in a movie or just that perfect, serene birth. I realized and I accepted that I could open up my mind. Things might turn out not precisely like I hope they do, but that could still be okay. You know? Julie: Yes. I love that. Francis: I really shifted my mindset and in this pregnancy, I didn’t worry about all the things that sometimes people do. I really just focused on taking care of my mind and taking care of my body. I did do chiropractic care, and I also did– I don’t know if you guys have heard of the Arvigo abdominal massage? I did that. Meagan: No. What is that? Francis: Oh. Yeah, so it’s really interesting. It’s a Mayan technique and it’s an abdominal massage. It’s actually really great after a Cesarean. It really helps with scar tissue. But even during pregnancy, it just– I actually don’t know all of the benefits of it other than for one, it feels really great. I think it can help with the round ligaments and stuff. It just helps the positioning of your baby and I don’t know. I found it really relaxing and comforting, so I did do that. I also did go to an acupuncturist and overall, just stayed active and well. But I did all those things not for some arbitrary reason, but because it made me feel good. So I really just focused on that. With this different approach to this pregnancy and accepting that things might turn out differently than what I had initially hoped, I shared all of this with my provider. I think that was super helpful because I think that they realized that I was in this mental space where I knew I could trust myself and I could trust my instincts and make the right decisions. In turn, they really trusted me. So it really helped in that and having support from them. One of the things, though, that did bring up some concern was that I did do a maternal fetal medicine consult about halfway through just to talk about my prior Cesareans and go over my operative history. One thing that came up that was a bit unexpected was in my second Cesarean, the surgeon had noted that I had really dense adhesions from my first Cesarean. He put almost a note in there to say, “A note to future surgeons, you might experience a prolonged surgery because of all of this dense scar tissue that was in there.” Julie: Interesting. Meagan: Well, and I actually wonder if the dense scar tissue extended– because you said you made it to 8, and you stalled, and you made it to 3. We just had a client that, same thing. She only made it to 3.5 and her body was in active labor. Her cervix just wasn’t going and she had super dense adhesions. Francis: Yeah. I mean, for sure. I don’t really know, obviously, all of the ways that it can affect you, but I am sure, it’s not natural to have all of that scar tissue in your abdomen, right? It’s there because you’ve had this major surgery. So the one thing, though, that they did mention and why it concerned them is they said that if I attempted and it ended up in an emergent situation, it might not turn out well for me because they wouldn’t be able to get through all of that scar tissue super quickly either to save my baby or me, right? That was a little bit scary to hear, but my first thought was like, “Well, if I have got all of the scar tissue and it’s going to be super hard to open me up, don’t you guys just not want to have to open me up? Wouldn’t the best case scenario be to just not have another surgery?” Julie: Right? Meagan: And avoid that completely? Yeah. Francis: Right. And add more scar tissue. I know when you have these adhesions, they can accidentally cut into your bladder or things like that. So I was like, “Well, isn’t it best case scenario just to not have surgery?” And they were like, “Oh, yeah I guess so.” It was kind of funny, almost like they hadn’t really thought of that option, but they wanted me to schedule a repeat Cesarean before I went into labor so they could do it on their own time so they wouldn’t have to rush. Which on the one hand, I understand, but the other hand I was like, “Well, let’s just try to not cut me open at all.” Right? The other thing too with that was again, I really trusted myself to be able to make the right decision and I trusted that if I were to attempt a VBAC and get to the point where a Cesarean was necessary, that I was capable of making the decision to head to the OR before it was an emergency. I had done that twice before, you know? The other thing too was I had done the research. I know you guys have talked about this before how rare uterine rupture really is and that’s kind of like the big deal with VBAC’s, right? Also, not only how rare it is, but then when there is rupture, how few of them are really catastrophic. You know? It seemed a little bit silly to go in for a Cesarean just because there was a one in 1000 chance that I might have a catastrophic rupture.  Julie: Yeah, exactly. Francis: Yeah. So ultimately, I respectfully appreciated their professional opinion, but decided I still wanted to go for a VBAC. So anyways, I went for it again. Basically, the rest of my pregnancy proceeded as normal. As far as I know, I did not get the cholestasis again. I did take some herbals that maybe played a role, but I didn’t get itchy, so I was super happy about that. Although, I was in my head in it a lot about it. If you think about being itchy, you can find an itch on your body right now. You know? So it was hard not to be paranoid about it.  But ultimately, I avoided getting it which was great. So I didn’t have to be induced, because I was worried about that. My pregnancy continued to progress and I did again go past 40 weeks. There were times when I was mentally struggling, but my husband, and my doula, and photographer were super supportive. I was able to lean in on them for support. I did start having a little bit of prodromal labor about 40 weeks and that was really exhausting, but it was reassuring that something was happening. I was taking the wins where I could find them. As I approached 41 weeks, I started to feel a little bit of pressure about how late I was going to go again. I did agree and scheduled an ultrasound to check on the fluid and check on the baby, but I made it very clear that I would not consent to them measuring my baby because I just thought, “What good does it do to talk about the size of my baby at this point? I know I grow big babies. It’s got to come out one way or the other.” Julie: Yes! Francis: Let’s just not even talk about it. Julie: Absolutely. Francis: There were a couple of the midwives that would make comments about it that rubbed me the wrong way, but I did my best to just brush it off. Because again, this baby is coming out, so what good does it to really think too much about how big it’s gonna be? As luck would have it though, I didn’t even get to that ultrasound. I didn’t have to put my foot down, but I was prepared to, to not have them measure my baby. So I ended up going into labor on my own. It was about 41 weeks. I happened to have an appointment with my favorite midwife and she just put me into this really peaceful place. Sure enough, that night, I went into labor. It started overnight and was kind of slow. My husband was in the other room, so I was up by myself for a bit and about 5:30 in the morning, I realized I was struggling to cope on my own. So I woke him up and he came into the room with me. About an hour later, he ended up calling our doula. Actually this time, we were only allowed one support person in the hospital other than my husband, so our photographer who had been with us before was double dutying as my doula. Julie: Nice. That’s called a doula-tog. A doula photographer. I do that sometimes. Francis: Yeah. She’s been with us in all of our births and she’s had birth experiences of her own that she can really relate to, so she was really great filling both rolls. She came over because my husband, and we laugh about this now, but he was like, “You were making noises that I was really scared of.” So he called her over to help me and my labor did slow down a bit, when things kind of picked up. Some people came over to pick up my other children. I think that’s pretty normal.  But then once everyone left and my birth space was undisturbed, my labor really picked up really quickly. I was contracting about every 3 to 4 minutes I think. A solid minute contraction and after a little bit, I started throwing up. In my labor with my son, I started throwing up when I was pretty far along, so I was like, oh my gosh. Maybe this is really happening quickly. Like, we should go to the hospital. We headed over to the hospital which was about 30 minutes and not really a fun drive, but we made it. We got checked in and I knew I wanted to labor in the tub for a little bit. They just have hospital, small tubs but I was allowed to get in and they had the wireless monitors. I wanted to get checked just to know where I was starting from and I was only a 2. I was so defeated. Julie: Oh, that is so discouraging. Oh my gosh. Francis: Yeah. Yeah, I know. There’s part of me that regrets finding out but it is what it is, right? But I knew at that point, I was like, “Okay. I am going to switch my mindset.” I already saw drugs in my future which I had decided I was totally okay with, but I wanted to see how much farther I could get. So I got in the tub and it really slowed down my labor, so my doula made me get out. I think I fussed and complained at her. I got out and I tried nitrous, but it did nothing for me. I’m honestly not even sure if that thing was actually working.  I decided at that point, I was like, “Just give me the epidural.” The other thing too is, maybe this is coming from a little bit of an athletic background, I was really having trouble holding tension in my pelvic floor and in my bum. I just couldn’t release, and so I knew that the epidural would help with that. That’s one of the things that I have learned on this podcast and listening to other women’s stories is that sometimes you can use these interventions to your advantage. Getting an epidural doesn’t mean that that’s the end of it for you. You can use it as a tool in your tool kit. Julie: Absolutely. It’s available if you need it. Francis: Exactly. I knew at that point I did need it. So I got the epidural. I was only 3 centimeters and that really scared me because I really wanted to be farther along, but I did it anyway. I labored for a bit and then I got checked again and I was– I probably had been at the hospital about 12 hours at this point. I’m still only 3 cm and I was like, “What am I doing? Like why am I doing this?” The midwife that happened to be on call was such a saint. I look back and I’m like, “I couldn’t have landed with a better midwife for me.” She looked me in the eyes. She said, “I will not recommend anything that will put you and your baby in harms way, but I will do everything in my power to help you achieve a vaginal birth.” It was just so reassuring to really know that she had my back. We did start Pitocin at that point, which I know can be a little bit controversial in a VBAC or a VBAC after more than one Cesarean, but we did a really slow Pitocin and I could tell it was working. I did have an epidural, but I could feel it working. I continued to labor throughout the night into the early morning. I tried to catch some rest, but there were definitely times I was looking around and like, my husband was trying to sleep on the floor and our doula photographer was there with us this whole time and I was just like, “Gosh.” I felt almost guilty, like I was putting them through the ringer with me. I just kept having these feelings like, “Will I end up in another Cesarean? I’m doing all this for nothing.” But I tried to quiet those doubts as much as I could and at one point in the middle of the night, I felt a pop and a gush of fluid. I called the nurse and I was like, “Hey, either I’ve just peed myself or my water broke.” She came in and confirmed it was my waters, so that was exciting. Julie: Yay! Francis: I was like, “Okay. Something’s happening, right?” And then, as I was laying there trying to catch some rest, I could feel that I was having some pressure in my bum and my sacrum, but I didn’t want to get too excited, so I kept it to myself. It was probably about 3 o’clock in the morning. My midwife had been tending to a couple of other women and she was going to try to catch some rest, so she was like, “Well, let me just check you really quick.” When she was doing it, I knew that it was a do or die moment for me. If I hadn’t progressed anymore at that point, I felt like that was going to be it. So I was really, really nervous. She went to check me. She didn’t say a word and she had this poker face. She checked me. She went to the sink and washed up. My heart is pounding, right? Like, “Oh my gosh.” She walks over to my bedside and then she looks at me and she said, “Francis? You’re more dilated than you’ve ever been in your life.” Julie: Yay! Francis: And I just– yeah. I let out this scream and everybody in the room was cheering. I think the nurse might have even shed a tear. That was the first moment where I was like, “Oh my god. This might actually happen.” So I did labor down a little bit longer and at one point, the nurse rushed in. She had me change positions and got me on my hands and knees and I knew. She wasn’t saying anything, but I knew that that meant they were having some sort of concern about baby. I tried not to panic, but I was really scared. The midwife got called in. She gave me another check and she was like, “You’re at 10 centimeters. Let’s just get this baby out.” So I was like, “Let’s do it.” Julie: “Let’s do it.” I love it. Francis: So my doula was like, “Hey, do you want the squat bar?” I was like, “Yes. Give me the squat bar.” Coming from an athletic background, I was so excited to feel useful. I was like, “Alright. Let’s go.” I had never pushed before, so I didn’t know what that was like. I was being coached. I was using the squat bar, basically squatting on the bed using the bar and apparently, according to the midwife, was really doing a good job. After about 45 minutes, my baby was right there. She was like, “Come down. Touch your baby’s head.” I touched his head, and then she had me lean back a little bit. We did some of those slow, panty pushes to do it pretty slowly. I felt my baby’s head come out, and then she had me push again for the shoulders. I could tell when I did that that she had a little bit of trouble, but he ended up coming out really without a problem. I really wanted to catch my baby. My husband was amazing support throughout all of it, but he had zero interest in being part of that process. And so I was like, “Well, I want to catch my baby then.” So my midwife was like, “Well, reach down and catch your baby!” So I reached down and she helped me, and I brought him up to my chest. He was beautiful and perfect, and it was that moment that I know we all dream about. Our photographer caught that moment and I have shared it on your Facebook page before. It’s a little bit graphic. Not too much so, but it was just– you can see it in my face. I was just in heaven. My baby was on my chest for all of the nurse checks and everything. I remember when he was laying there, I was like, “Oh, I think he’s my smallest baby. He’s so small.” And then finally, they came and took him to do the weight and the measurements, and he ended up being 10 lbs. 12 oz. and 22.5 inches. Julie: Wow! Francis: He was not my biggest baby, but my second biggest and I just couldn’t believe it. You know? Like, “Oh my gosh. I pushed that baby out of my body!” Meagan: Yeah! Francis: I did have some tearing. It was a third-degree tear and my midwife said it was from his shoulders. She did say he didn’t have dystocia, but she had to give some traction, I think, is what she said. But I was repaired right there in labor and delivery and honestly, I didn’t care because I had my baby with me and I was just in euphoria. The recovery was not a walk in the park, but so much better than a Cesarean. I avoided major abdominal surgery.  One of the things in my birth plan– I had this long birth plan– but at the very beginning, I said that I had birth goals. These were my goals. This is where I’ll get emotional. Sorry. I said, “I wish for a healthy mother and baby, both physically and emotionally. For my intuition to guide me and to be trusted by those around me. For labor to begin and continue as hands off as possible and to feel heard, empowered, and respected.”  At the end of the day, my birth checked all those boxes. I couldn’t have asked for more. I have no doubt that your podcast played a huge role in my success. If me sharing my story can help just one other woman achieve her own birth goals, then I am just overjoyed. So thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to share my story. Julie: Aww. Meagan: Wow. I have tears in my eyes right now. Francis: Aww. You guys are so sweet. Meagan: I just felt that. When you were talking about when you reached down and grabbed your baby, it was like I was flashing back to my son‘s birth. I just remember that feeling and I was feeling it for you. It’s such an incredible feeling to reach down there and feel the baby’s head, and pull him out, and have that support, and what your midwife said too. I am so happy for you and so proud of you. Francis: Well, thank you. I appreciate it. Like I said, I really, truly feel like I could not have done it without you guys. I really mean that. I know you’ve heard that before, but it’s the truth. Julie: Well, I just don’t think– I can safely speak for Meagan when I say we probably won’t ever get tired of hearing that. We love it! Meagan: I don’t think we will because this is what we are here for. This is what we want to do. We want to help. We want to empower. We want to inspire. We want to guide. We want to educate. We want to create that community where it’s not even just us, right? It’s you guys helping others and feeling that support all around the world. You have people rooting for you and you don’t even know where they are at. That’s what we want. That’s what we want. We want our mission here too be better and make birth after Cesarean better. Sometimes, that means a repeat Cesarean and that’s okay. Listen to how healing it can be. Francis: Yeah. Meagan: Especially coming back for the first podcast after taking so much time, it’s so refreshing to hear, “Hey, this is still what people love and this is what people want. They want to hear the stories. They want to see all the stories.” The emotion I just felt with you sharing your story, and I’m not even pregnant or having anymore kids and I’m feeling it. I’m just imagining being in that room with you guys and cheering as you’re the furthest dilated that you’ve ever been. That’s such a huge moment. Just so many fun things. I am so glad to be back. Julie: Yeah. I love it. I think it’s so incredible. I just think back– I know Meagan, maybe you are doing the same thing, just all the births I have attended as a doula and now I get to do that as a birth photographer– of parents who have had these babies over 10 pounds. I feel like sometimes maybe the big ones come out a little bit easier because they have gravity working on their side, right? Gravity gets to pull on them a little bit easier. Francis: True. Julie: I am on call right now for a threepeat doula client, my third time being her doula. The babies that I was with for her last two, one was over 9 pounds and one was over 10. It’s not a VBAC birth, but her babies– She’s 5’1” by the way. She’s 5’1” and very petite. She births these ginormous, sumo wrestler babies. It’s just so fun to watch her labor and birth because she just doesn’t hold still. She’s constantly moving. There’s a lot to say about giving the birthing person time, and freedom, and space, and ability to let their body do what it needs to do instead of jumping to conclusions about the babies size and the ability of whether it will or will not work. I think that that’s really cool that your midwife supported you in that way. It’s really just neat when you hear about providers wanting the type of birth you wanna just as much as you do and it really kind of felt like that’s what happened there for you. So it’s really cool. Francis: Yeah. It did. It’s kind of funny because when I was seeking out opinions about whether I should go for a VBAC or not, and then of course just checking myself, honestly, the fact that I grow really big babies was almost not even brought up. It was all of the other things that were more concerning. Like the scar tissue, or my age, or potentially having cholestasis and maybe having to get induced or just go for a repeat Cesarean. So it was interesting to me. One of the things I think I was most fearful of when I was thinking about having a VBAC was whether my baby would be too big, but my provider almost didn’t even care. Do you know? Julie: I love that. Francis: That surprised me. Five Tips for Birthing Big Babies Julie: I love that. I love it a lot. Alright well, we are going to wrap it up but before we do, we have a blog all about big babies and how we can have the best chance at gettingg that big baby out vaginally. We are going to link it for you in the show notes. I am going to go over five tips for you right now. The first one is knowing the facts about macrosomia, which just means “big baby”. Macrosomia– it’s really interesting because different organizations define what makes a baby big differently. Some places define it as a baby that’s larger than 8 lbs. 13 oz. and some places define it as bigger than 9 lbs. 4 oz. I mean, your babies checked both of those boxes. So that’s okay. So either way, 8 lbs. 13 oz. or 9 lbs. 4 oz.  So sometimes, there is a little bit of flexibility about what really makes s baby big. And also know that estimated fetal weight– the only way to actually know the actual size of your baby is birthing the baby and getting the measurements after it’s born. Ultrasound scans are notoriously inaccurate about measuring gestational weight. They can be off by a pound or two difference like yours. Your first was still really big, but about a pound different than what they measured it, right? Francis: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Julie: Yeah. The second thing you can do to help get a big baby out is hire a doula. Studies show that having a doula improves just about every single aspect of your birth and delivering a large baby is no exception about that. A skilled doula will help you communicate your needs and your perceptions to help realize your dream of having a healthy, positive birthing experience.  There are actually a lot of statistics that prove how doulas improve birth outcomes. They actually reduce your chances of having a C-section by 39% which is really cool for my data-junkie brain.  The third thing you can do is move as much as possible, even with an epidural. Moving, switching sides, even just moving your legs a little bit every few contractions is going to help keep your pelvis being flexible and help create that space for your baby to move down.  We say in our blog, “ditch the epidural”, but you don’t actually have to to have an unmedicated birth in order to birth or to have a VBAC or to have any vaginal delivery. Go as long as you can without getting it, but it’s okay if that’s a lower number than you want. As we talked about earlier, an epidural is a great tool to have in your toolbox if you need it. Knowing how to use an epidural and how to move, and a doula is a great way to help you utilize this tool properly. As long as you are not laying down and staying still in one spot for too long, that’s the biggest thing you need to take away from that. And the fifth one, we say, “believe in your body.” I know I’m probably going to get a lot of eye rolls for this. “Believe in your body. Woosah. You can’t always manifest your baby your out.” Yes. That is very true. Sometimes things happen, and interventions are needed, and Cesareans are life-saving. We definitely believe that and we have seen it. But there is a lot to be said in believing in yourself, and believing in your baby, your body that knows that it can do this and that it is designed for the birth process, and having that confidence going into it and having the confidence in yourself, and your birth team, and your support environment. If you don’t have that confidence, do whatever you need to do or change whatever you need to change in order to create that confidence and that belief in your environment because where doubt exists, that brings in the uncertainty that can shift your entire birth experience. I’m going to end that with a period and an exclamation point. Meagan, what would you add in there? I’ve been talking for a few minutes. Meagan: No, you’re just fine. I mean, I feel like we have talked about the intuition and mama’s gut the whole time. But I love that during your pregnancy and everything, you were able to hone in on that and not only learn what intuition necessarily is, but how to really tune into it because especially for birth and especially for a VBAC– I want to say it’s for anyone. It really is, but with VBAC, there is so much coming at us with all the things. For instance, when you went to that different provider and they were like, “Yeah, no. Not one person in this hospital is going to touch you. Like, no.” A lot of people would be like, “Oh, okay. There’s that many doctors that won’t even see me. I better just have a C-section,” which is totally fine if that’s what their intuition is how they feel.  But a lot of the time, I feel like it’s hard to tune into that intuition and to be like, “Wait. I still feel like I should probably still get some other opinions.” Right? Versus just being told what I said to you. I think that if we can, in life in general, just learn how to tune in to that intuition and really how to follow it, I think it’s going to help us in so many things in life in general. That’s one of the highlights of your story that I got because I had to personally work through a lot of that during my pregnancy because I was told that I would rupture if VBAC’d and I didn’t realize how much that impacted me, but it impacted me. But my intuition was telling me otherwise, right? Anyway. That was one of the biggest things I took away. One of the biggest takeaways from your story is learning how to hone in on your intuition, following it, and trusting it. Trusting your gut. Francis: Yeah, precisely. Hit it on the nose. Julie: Alight. Meagan: I– yeah. Julie: Oh, go ahead. Meagan: I was just going to say, I love it. I loved everything about your story. So thank you so much for kicking us off with such a great empowering story. Julie: Yes. It was the perfect story for our welcome back. Francis, it was such a joy to have you on and share your story today. But before we leave, we want to ask you– I think I might know what the answer is– but I am going to ask anyways. What is your best tip for somebody preparing for birth after Cesarean? Francis: Well first, I thought you were going to ask whether I was going to have more children. And I am like, “Hard no.” Julie: I’m right there with you. Francis: That door has been closed. Yeah. I think it is, it’s what I think– Meagan, what you just talked about is learning, taking the time to focus on yourself and your mental health. I think ideally before you get pregnant, but you can obviously do that while you’re pregnant if you’re already pregnant. But taking the time to really focus on your mental health and learn how to trust yourself because we all have good instincts. We just have to know where to find them sometimes. Julie: Oh I love that. “We all have good instincts. We have to know where to find them sometimes.” I’m going to make a social media post about that. Just one second while I write it down. Francis: You guys are too sweet. I appreciate it. Julie: Maybe it will go on a shirt. I don’t know. I need to start making shirts again. Meagan: I know. Francis: Do I need to trademark that real quick? Julie: Yes, you need to. Meagan: She’s like, “Wait a second.” Yeah. Trademark that for sure. Julie: I will credit you. What’s your social media? Should I tag you? Francis: No no, not necessary. Thank you though. Julie: Okay. Speaking of shirts, we do have a bunch of VBAC shirts available for you to purchase if you want to rock, and represent, and support the podcast. You can find them at thevbaclink.com/bonfire if you want to head over there and rock some swag from the VBAC shop.  So, Francis. You’re amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us today and everybody else, good luck on your journey. We are so excited to be back along for the ride with you.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

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Today we are joined by our dear friend, April, who is sharing her second VBAC birth story with us after three previous Cesarean births.April had two traumatic, emergency Cesareans for her first two births and a scheduled Cesarean for her third. Her first VBAC was a very heartbreaking yet tender birth to a stillborn at 36 weeks. She shares the many miracles and sweet experiences that led her to her most recent birth-- her second VBAC to a perfectly healthy, beautiful baby girl.Education, great support, trusting her intuition, finding the courage to be unconventional, and asking questions are all big parts of her story. She is a woman of strength in every way. We know her story will inspire you as much as it inspires us! Additional linksThe VBAC Link on Apple PodcastsHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Julie: Welcome, welcome. It is Wednesday and it is podcast Wednesday. I am really excited for today’s story because our interview today is with April. April is actually one of my doula clients and she has-- oh my gosh. We could probably take three or four hours to share the whole story and all of the intricacies of how everything played out in her birth. But we are not. We are going to try to keep it super short. It’s probably going to be a little bit hard for us. So bear with us while we try and keep this story to under an hour and get on there with it. But April has had three C-sections, and then she had a VBAC after three C-sections that was a 36-week stillborn, and then she went on to have another VBAC after three C-sections with a healthy baby girl. That’s when I supported her as a doula for her second VBAC after three C-sections.I really admire April a lot. I am going to talk a little bit, maybe at the end if we have time, about her relationship with her provider and how she created this really cool, mutual respect and dynamic between them. If not, we are going to have to just have another podcast episode about me just telling about the cool things I experienced there. She is just fresh off the VBAC, like just over a month fresh off of her VBAC. It is such an incredible story, but I don’t want to take up too much time sharing about it because I want her to be able to share as much as she can. Review of the WeekJulie: But before we do that, Meagan has a Review of the Week for us.Meagan: Yes I do. This is from holmclaugh90. This is on Apple Podcasts and the title is, “I listen every single day.” It says, “After a traumatic Cesarean with my first baby five years ago and multiple miscarriages in between, this is a breath of fresh air as I await my chance to have a VBAC this October with my second! Love every story I hear on this podcast and it makes me feel so much stronger in knowing I can do this!”And October has passed. This was last July, so if you are still listening, holmclaugh90, send us a message. We would love to hear how it turned out.Julie: Absolutely.April’s storyJulie: All right. We are going to get right into April’s story. Education, good support, listening to your intuition, trusting yourself, being grateful, giving yourself lots of grace, knowing that it’s okay to say “no” and ask questions, these are all big parts of her story. We are just going to let her take it off and then see where this story flows. All right, April. Are you ready?April: I hope so. Yeah. Well, I just want to thank you for the opportunity to be on the podcast and share my story. I hope it will be helpful to at least one person out there. I know that when I found The VBAC Link this past fall actually, at the beginning of this last pregnancy, it was a tremendous resource and I have been telling everybody about it ever since. I’m sure Julie is totally okay with that.Julie: I am totally okay with it.April: But I just can’t even tell you how grateful I am that this resource is out there. I am not paid to say this by any means or anything like that. I ended up hiring Julie as a result of listening to the podcast and actually going to your website. I think I actually did a lot of that through your emails and your blogs probably more than even the podcast, just looking at it and finding specific information for the things that I needed at the time because it can be very overwhelming for those of you that are already on a VBAC journey or wanting to pursue that. Sometimes it’s just a lot of information and depending on what your circumstances are and maybe what your past history and trauma is, there could just be so much and you can go in so many directions. If you’re like me, my brain is really creative and does that on its own anyway, so I was just really grateful for Meagan and Julie and the whole VBAC Link community and team for putting together more bullet-point information where I could find exactly what I needed when I wanted it. So thank you for having me on.Okay. So to get into my story, I already invited Julie and Meagan to interrupt and to help ask questions to keep me on track, but I am going to go over it like a summary first, and then maybe we will just dive into stuff after that. When I was 18, I was pregnant for the first time. I and my husband were expecting our daughter. I really didn’t know. You just don’t know what you don’t know, right? As an 18-year-old who was entering motherhood and really excited and grateful for it but also terrified, it was a big transition in my life at the time too. I just didn’t know a lot about birth in general.I really had a lot of trust in providers who I think are really great people, but I just didn’t know what to ask and I didn’t know how to really prepare for birth other than watching birth story shows and random information like that. Probably not the best resources, guys. Anyway, after a pretty smooth pregnancy, I ended up having an emergency Cesarean with her. Hers was due to a cord being wrapped around her neck which we didn’t know until I got to the pushing phase and her heart rate kept dropping and went so low, and didn’t want to come back up after the third time. And so we were rushed immediately to an emergency Cesarean.During that Cesarean, I am not sure. I actually only found out when we had our stillbirth later. I was actually given extra insight as to what exactly happened during that first birth but apparently, I had possibly some amniotic fluid or something get into my bloodstream and it caused-- I am still not sure if it was a pulmonary embolism or it was some type of embolism. I still need to go and actually find out exactly what happened. But it was a life-threatening situation as a result of that Cesarean. And so not only was it not the birth story I wanted, my daughter thankfully was healthy and okay after being monitored in the NICU for a little bit because she had meconium in her fluid when she was born, but on top of that, I barely got to see her. I got to say “hi” to her and give her a kiss as my husband brought her around from the drape to me. I looked over at my anesthesiologist who was on my other side and I don’t know why but I couldn’t move anything other than my head. I looked at him and was just pleading with my eyes because I, for some reason, couldn’t even do any type of motion or sound or anything.Thankfully, he realized something was wrong and told me that he was going to put me out and I would be okay. The next thing I knew, I woke up and it was six hours later. She was being brought to me in the recovery area, the mother and baby, and I had missed it. I had missed the first six hours of her life and that was really hard for me. That was really traumatic for me. I did not love that. I was grateful at the time and still am that we had the ability to deliver her by Cesarean and whereas that was probably truly necessary for her to be born that way, it was still really traumatic and it was really sad. I was really hoping when I got pregnant with my second that we wouldn’t have to do that again and I would be able to be the first one to hold her-- or to hold him this time. It was my boy. And be able to have those moments together peacefully without the drama around it. I prepared what I thought was preparing for a VBAC. I went and found a different provider and I asked them. That was one of the first things when they ask you, “What do you want and what are your questions and concerns with this pregnancy?” It was, “I would really like to have a VBAC and I will do whatever. Whatever you tell me to do to prepare for that and to hopefully make that successful.” I really wasn’t given any information. It was just kind of like, “Oh, okay. Yeah. Sure. We will just plan on that. Just do what you did before and nothing different.” No further information or education. And again, I just trusted that the providers knew best and didn’t really seek out any extra information on my own.So I went through that whole pregnancy and again, it wasn’t too eventful, and then we got to birth. I went into the hospital and didn’t know, but I know now that it wasn’t the most friendly for VBACs in general. But again, I didn’t know. I was put on an epidural right away even though I didn’t really need one, but they were like, “Well, this is mandatory because you’re a VBAC.” There were a lot of interventions that were given right upfront that I wasn’t really told I had a choice with and I didn’t realize it was okay to say, “I don’t want to do that,” or to ask more questions, or just get more information about it. I just went with the flow because like I said, I just trusted the providers. I knew that I wasn’t a nurse or a doctor and I just figured because they knew that I wanted to have a successful VBAC and was vocal about that, that I assumed everybody was telling me the best advice to get that outcome.So I went and had been laboring really well and progressing really well, and then as soon as I actually got into the hospital and was admitted, with the inventions that they did, my labor started to slow down significantly. It still was progressing but just a lot slower, and then after 17 hours-- so my daughter was 26 hours of labor before a Cesarean and my son was 17 hours. When we got to delivery at the 17-hour mark, we had the opposite happen with his heart rate. So whereas my daughter, when we started to push, her heart rate dropped, my son, they were like, “Okay. He is at a +1 now. Why don’t we--” because I was at a +1, but he had been there for an hour and so they were like, “Maybe we should consider starting to push,” and then just before I actually started to push, his heart rate skyrocketed for no reason that we actually could see.And so they immediately were like, “Baby’s in distress. Something is wrong.” After-- I don’t even know exactly how many minutes because it happened really fast-- they were like, “Okay. We are going in for another Cesarean. We need to get him out right now.” They unhooked me from the epidural and brought me back to the operating room. Before I knew it, he was actually delivered. I wasn’t even numbed because they couldn’t get the epidural going fast enough. It was just really traumatic and really not what I wanted. But again, I was really grateful that my baby was healthy and here, and I survived it, and we still had, eventually, an outcome where both of us were okay and here. But the getting there part was not fun. So anyway. That was my VBAC experience. It was not great and it obviously had failed. So I just thought, “Okay. That’s it.” And then they had made me sign all this paperwork saying, “If it does fail, this is it. You get one chance and then it is Cesareans going forward with any other kids you have.”And so three years later, we decided to have another baby again. I was with a different provider again and I asked them first thing, “Is that still the same rule or can I try for a VBAC” because I had learned more between now and then and I thought maybe I wasn’t given the best option. Now, I know I definitely wasn’t. And so I thought, “You know, maybe I still could do it.” Maybe we could have a better first moment with baby because my son had been taken into the NICU for monitoring as well and because I had not been numbed during the Cesarean, they knocked me out because I went into shock and I was on narcotic medicine for the first little bit, and so I was very in and out of it at the beginning of his life too.I just really again missed that birth story that I was really hoping for, and those bonding moments at the beginning and everything, minus trauma for them and for me. And so I asked this provider with my baby number three, my second son, if we were still looking at the same thing or if we had to just plan on a Cesarean and they told me, “Absolutely not.” There was no choice for me, just because of the emergency Cesareans beforehand, and that I for sure had to schedule a Cesarean. That was it. We weren’t even going to have a discussion about it. I took that for what it was worth and I thought that was it and so I said, “Okay.” I didn’t know anybody that had had any VBACs after more than one Cesarean and so I really thought that that was the end-all and didn’t know any better. And so we had a planned Cesarean with him. It was the weirdest thing going into the hospital and delivering without being in labor. It was actually a beautiful experience. No drama, no unexpected events. I delivered him and they did take him away to give him his first bath right away, so I didn’t quite get the family-centered Cesarean that I think you can do now, but it was still better than it had been. It was very different but it was good. Both of us were safe and healthy and we were good.And then years later, we decided to have our caboose baby, was what we termed it. We got pregnant with our fourth and there was a ten-year gap. The pregnancy went well up until the 20-week mark when we went in for our anatomy scan and we found out that she had a pleural effusion, which I had never heard of before, but it meant that there was fluid in between her chest wall cavity and her lungs. It was on one side. It wasn’t multiple pockets which would have been worse, but there was this pocket of fluid that they didn’t know what it was. They didn’t know what it came from. Of course, I went home and looked up statistics right away. 80% can be lots of scary things and often, not often I should say, but a lot of them don’t end up with good outcomes for babies. And then there is 20% that just magically show up and they magically go away, as the specialist put it.And so it was really scary and stressful from 20 weeks on. We had extra ultrasounds to monitor it and we were just hoping and praying that it went away. They did extra bloodwork tests and stuff. We couldn’t indicate that it meant anything more than just possibly that 20% that just they don’t know why it was there and they don’t know why it goes away, but there wasn’t anything else that showed that it was going to be anything more than that. But we did have to monitor it to just hope that it went away. They were like, “If it’s present at birth, then we can possibly help or leave it then after birth, but in the meantime, we just have to watch it.” So that’s what we were doing. We had a lot of extra eyes on baby and me during the pregnancy. She was due in October 2019. Actually, she was due November 5, 2019. Sorry. She was born in October. So we got to our 32-week mark and had another ultrasound at that point. We had felt really lucky and we discovered that the pleural effusion had completely gone away at that point, so we thought we were the 20% that just got really lucky, and it was gone and it wasn’t a problem anymore. The specialist at that appointment said, “If we didn’t know this had existed in the first place, we wouldn’t be able to see any signs that it ever was there in the first place. So you are safe. You’re in the clear. You are good.” That was 32 weeks and so if baby does come early, we just thought we were “safe”.And so then we went to our 36-week check-up thinking that, we had a month in between that appointment and that one, thinking that all was well and we were finally out of the woods. We were going to have this baby anytime now, and we were all ready, and had the nursery ready, and had all of the things, and we are really excited to be welcoming our little caboose baby to our family. My kids were, the older kids were 10 and-- gosh, I guess they were 10 and 13 and 15. No, probably 14 actually at the time. Oh no, sorry. Just barely 15.Anyway, oh gosh. Now I am messing it up. Something like that, but teenagers basically. Anyway, it was very much a family affair. I went into the 36-week appointment. My husband had been able to go to most of them, but that one he had to work that morning, and so he went 45 minutes away from where I was to go to a job. I went to that appointment thinking that everything was great and we discovered that there was no heartbeat right at the very beginning. It was devastating to say the least. I don’t want to speed over too much but I know in favor of time I need to. So I am just going to sum up with, it was horrible. Child loss is, yeah. I don’t know. I can’t imagine anything worse than it. So yeah. It was crushing. There were no explanations when we found out and then later, at our six-week follow-up appointment, after they had done lots of testing on her and me, we never got any answers so I don’t know what happened or why, but her heart just stopped. It was just crushing in every way. We are religious and spiritual people and none of it flowed with anything that we had felt like we received as far as personal revelation and thinking certain things. It was all just a very confusing and really, really difficult time for all of us. And so that happened and there were miracles that happened out of the tragedy, but it was also hard because it is hard when you’re going through something so tough to say that anything good could come out of it because if given the chance you wouldn’t do the hard part at any moment. You know?But there were some miracles that came out of it immediately and following in the days, and weeks, and months following. One of them was that our doctor was, I am just so grateful for him, our OB. During that appointment, after the initial shock and discussions about what to do next and everything, he did give me the surprise option of attempting to do a VBAC again. That’s where this unexpected VBAC came from with my fourth because he said that really for me, the risks were-- obviously, there was still that uterine rupture risk, but he was like, “The concern is to try and save both of you, and especially the baby if that happens.” So he was like, “I feel comfortable and as the provider--” There was a group of them and so as part of those actually going to be at the hospital if he wasn’t there, he wasn’t going to be there, so the providers at the hospital were comfortable allowing me to try for a VBAC and just doing it very, very slow, and just hoping that it went well. If it didn’t, we would end up doing an emergency Cesarean again, and then the alternative was just to do a Cesarean.My husband wanted, “Let’s just go for a Cesarean again and get the baby out. We have waited this long,” and he was really afraid because of the traumatic birth trying for a VBAC before. He was afraid of what could happen, so he was like, “Let’s just do that and save ourselves any more drama.” And I don’t know-- well, I do know why. The only reason I can say why I felt peace and calm in that moment and why I knew to try for a VBAC again because it was the only option that felt good at the time and felt peaceful. I didn’t have any fear about it which was not like me because I usually overthink everything and have anxiety. So I decided when everything else felt so out of control and not my plan anyway, that if that one felt like the first step in something that didn’t just seem wrong when my world was upside down, then I was going to trust it and just go with what felt right.And so we ended up going into the hospital and they mechanically induced me with a Foley bulb and a Pitocin drip. They were doing it in increments of 2. I’m not sure what they started me on.Meagan: Usually, they do 2 every thirty minutes. A 2 is considered a low dose. 4 is still low but higher. 2 milliliters an hour every thirty minutes.April: Yeah. That’s probably what it was then. I know it was 2 and so if it was every thirty minutes. Yeah, that sounds right. So we did that and then I got an epidural earlier on because my friends were like, “Why?” I had two friends come to visit us there in the hospital and they were just like-- at first, I wasn’t getting the epidural and they were just like, “You’re already going through so much pain. Why put yourself in any more physical pain on top of that? Let yourself take the edge off with an epidural and let yourself really focus on preparing to meet your baby and for the very few hours that you will have together.” You know, in preparation of that, and everything that was happening, and the loss, and everything.So I did. I got the epidural and it was fine. We ended up after 43 hours, several days, we got our miracle. She was born vaginally and I only pushed for 15 minutes. It was beautiful and crazy. I did stall for quite a bit which was why it was 43 hours just because it was really slow progress from the entire second day, basically. But we had a lot of people praying for us, and we had priesthood blessings and other things, and finally, I actually took a nap which, I wasn’t really getting much sleep even at night because of the circumstances. It was difficult to sleep or to do anything really other than cry. And right before I delivered her, I actually was finally able to take a nap. I got a one-hour rest and when I woke up, my body had finally dilated fully. I was already fully effaced the whole time. But I finally dilated to a 10 and they were able to start pushing. And like I said, we pushed for 15 minutes and she was born. It was amazing. I literally had zero prep for a VBAC other than what I had done the 12-13 years before when I actually tried for a VBAC. And so it was truly, in my opinion, by the grace of God that it happened. And here we found ourselves in that terrible circumstance but also a miracle because we didn’t ever think we would have that experience. It was really awful and really beautiful at the same time because we were able to have what we never thought we would be able to and we were able to share those moments with our kids and with our newborn daughter who, even though was deceased, we were able to really spend a lot of time with her immediately after. It was all very sacred. There’s a lot of words that just don’t describe it, but just really sacred.So that was our fourth birth and then this last time, we actually knew before we even went in to deliver that our fourth baby, our stillbirth baby at 36 weeks-- after the appointment, my husband, I called him because like I said, he had been at a job that was 45 minutes away from where we were and had to tell him the news over the phone. He raced to where I was and met us there because we were there for a couple of hours before we went home to prepare to go to the hospital to deliver. And when he met me there, we were talking things over with the doctor and our doctor told us, he was like, “I know that you’re not even thinking--” because I was supposed to actually be done.We were planning the fourth and then I was supposed to have my tubes tied and everything because it was supposed to be another planned Cesarean, and so we were totally done and very mentally and emotionally content and prepared to be done having kids. And then when that curveball happened, everything was upside down. There was no discussion or forethought into any decisions past that. And so our doctor told us, “I know you haven’t even thought about this and you don’t have to make any decision or think about this right now per se, but I just want you to know that I would be willing to do a fifth Cesarean on you if you would like to try again for another child,” because before that, we had discussed that four was really the safest number for me for Cesareans, and so I really should be done after four. That was part of that decision to be done.So anyway, the last thing on my mind during birth for our stillbirth daughter was to get pregnant again and to go through that again. Obviously, now with fear of, “What if this happens again?” and not even knowing why and everything, but after we lost her and spent a lot of time really, really getting close to God about a lot of things, we really felt strongly by the time that we even gave birth to her that we probably would try again. It didn’t make any logical sense other than it just was like I said. When so much of my world felt wrong, it was only one thing, and sometimes here and there, just something that would feel right and peaceful. That was one thing that did.And so after we delivered her and we had our funeral and everything, we started having really strong feelings that-- this is going to sound really cray cray, at least it did to me, but my husband and I both started to have really strong feelings that the same little girl that we had lost really still wanted to be a part of our family and that if we were to get pregnant again, that she would come back to us.Meagan: Oh, that just gave me the chills.April: Yeah. It’s something that honestly, my husband and I had never, ever considered. We have had friends that have lost babies. Miscarriage and infant loss is not talked about as often as it probably really needs to be and should be, but one out of four women experience loss and that’s something that I didn’t know before. It’s really prominent. I don’t know how often this part of our story happens to others. I have no idea why it did for us other than I am just really grateful. I don’t think it has anything to do with-- I don’t know.I laugh and I am like, “There are so much better people that, I think, probably deserve a miracle like that.” But it did for us. And the farther in after our loss, it was really hard too because we had a lot of support with the people that-- we didn’t just share it with anybody. It was really sacred and personal to us and when we did share it, we had-- most people were actually very open and supportive of it, and then occasionally, we would get somebody who was just really worried about us because you know, you love somebody and you don’t want them to suppress their grief.They were really worried, I think, that we were going to go off the deep end, and in our grief, we were thinking that our dead daughter was going to come back in another body, and we wouldn’t grieve that baby, and we would think the new baby was the other baby. Something like that and there was just concern, right? It was really such a, just a crazy-- in a good way. I don’t mean that in a negative way, but a really wild experience.During all of this time, we did decide to go ahead and get pregnant. I actually did this whole detox with the doctor to physically try to prepare as well as I could and do all these things in preparation for it, and at the same time, we were doing a lot of spiritual digging just personally, and as a couple, and as a family. We really got good at really getting comfortable with being uncomfortable, with letting other people being uncomfortable if they had-- I don’t know how to put this. Like, if somebody didn’t necessarily understand or support what we really felt and knew to be right for us, that it was okay.It wasn’t our job to make ourselves uncomfortable or to tell a lie to make them feel comfortable. Does that make sense? And if so, we were like, “Okay.” And for me, I just tried to see everybody as coming from a place of love. You know, just like with our loss. Sometimes, people don’t say the most helpful things to you after you have lost because they want so badly to help you but they don’t know how and sometimes, what they say can be really hurtful and not helpful.And so I started labeling things from that experience as not “good or bad”, but just “helpful and unhelpful”. I used that as I was preparing for this pregnancy and knowing that I wanted to try to do a VBAC again because we had been able to successfully do it, and now I knew that my body could do it and having that experience, I just knew that that was what we wanted and we could do it again. I felt really good about it again, for no necessarily logical explanation, I just knew that it was possible and that I should look into it more, and not just take everything that was given to me information-wise from a provider or whatever at just surface value. I should just ask questions, and look into it, and follow that intuition.We were getting really good at that on every level, including spiritual, with what we felt was happening with our daughter coming back and in preparing for that. And so we decided to stay with our same provider because he had been there. Even though he wasn’t there at the delivery, he had been there through the whole pregnancy and on the day of finding out the news and everything. He had been really awesome. And so we just felt like there were a lot of miracles during the whole time between our provider, and with the hospital, and where we delivered which we loved. Shout out to Timpanogos hospital.But we really just felt okay. God was really there in so many tiny, tiny details. Things that were really personal to us that you couldn’t overlook. A lot of it, for me-- I know Julie is kind of the same way. We talked about this. But in the past, I tended to find comfort in statistics and in concrete evidence, case studies. The nerd in me loves to comfort myself with the-- things that would make me more anxious about stuff, I would go and look for numbers. I would look for concrete evidence. I would look for the other in my favor. You know, that kind of stuff. My logic brain would turn on and that’s where I would find my comfort.When we lost our daughter, I couldn’t go there anymore because we were the less than 1% of stillbirths and when I looked to statistics, the statistics were painful to see that stillbirths hadn’t really improved over the last many, many years. Just to see all of these statistics not only didn’t bring me comfort, but we’re hurtful. They didn’t give me any kind of logic. They actually made me more upset and, I hate using the word crazy, but that’s what they did. They drove me nuts because nothing about it was logical. It all was just in one, giant, lightning-bolt fluke.And so that was, for me, more upsetting than anything. So I was walking this very personal, you could call it spiritual. You could call it learning to really be one with your own intuition, your gut instincts. You can call it a lot of things, but that’s what I had to do this entire last pregnancy. I couldn’t look to the numbers anymore just for comfort. I still would look at them, and then I would look to God and I would look to myself, and I would say, “Okay. Does it feel good? Does it feel right? Or does it feel like something is wrong? Do I feel like maybe I need to ask more questions or maybe there is more to that or maybe that is actually not correct information?” And so every doctor’s appointment, my OB was aware of what I wanted to do in getting pregnant again and trying for a VBAC. From appointment number one, we discussed it and we were vocal about what we wanted. We tried to get as much support as we could from a really great provider and group, but not the most VBAC supportive as we didn’t really know that upfront, but as we got toward the end of the pregnancy, and preparing for delivery, and during delivery actually, as Julie can attest. There was a lot of discussion about uterine rupture and everything. Basically, they talked about it leading up to delivery and our choices with that were put on the line again during delivery. We had to have all those discussions again while I was actually in labor. But it was really neat because it was all just practice to be ready and to be able to say, “Okay. This is what feels right and that doesn’t feel right.” It’s okay to say “yes” when it does and it’s okay to say “no” when it doesn’t. You know? Or to ask more questions, and have discussions, and to respectfully disagree with a provider but still have that love and care for each other and realize that we all want the same thing, but we just may not agree on how to get there.Julie: Yeah.April: And so we went into labor this last time, and they were really getting pushy, I will say, the entire last month of my weekly appointments and actually at the weekly appointments, but I also had NSTs, so I was actually getting it double because my NST tech would sometimes discuss, “Have they talked about your induction date yet? Are you doing a Cesarean this time?” And all of the stuff anyway.  It was actually funny, but Julie can tell you because we ended up hiring Julie actually very late in the game. Julie can say. I can’t remember exactly how far along I was. I want to say I was 30--Julie: I think it was around 32 weeks. 30, 32.April: Yeah. 32 or 34 weeks or something. Thirty-something like that and I had wanted to earlier on but I wasn’t sure with COVID and everything if she would be allowed in the room and with our loss before, I was like, “If I only get one person in that room with me, it’s going to be my husband.” And so when I found out I could have two people there physically with me, I was like, “Okay. I really think we need that other person so that when I am laboring, I don’t have to have all the discussions again and if they try to railroad me, I don’t have to exactly be 100% with all my facts and logic.” Do you know what I mean? Or having these long conversations, but I can focus on what I need to do and I can let my husband and my doula assist me in birthing positions and all the things that I need to help make it successful as well as having those educated conversations on the side with me and with providers.I just felt like I really needed that extra person in our corner. I had really never even known what a doula was until this pregnancy. So it was really a lot of new stuff for us, but I had been reading a lot of birthing books this time. I had done so much research with your guys’ website and with other resources out there on what had even happened to my past births and, in preparation for this birth, just options, and learning to ask all the questions and not be afraid to find out the answers, and then to ask more questions. And so anyway, we did. We had Julie with us and I am so grateful. I don’t think we actually would have been a successful VBAC had Julie not been there. And not just Julie, but Meagan, I know you behind the scenes and others from The VBAC Link community--Julie: Yeah. There were a lot of people cheering you on.April: I know that we had a lot of people cheering us on and helping when we needed to. We stalled during labor. I know that we had a lot of help with suggestions of different positions to try to help her progress because she got stuck. We almost did the failure-to-progress at six hours when we thought we were about ready to push. I was 95% effaced and we were just before lunch. It was 11:15 or something like that. Julie, do you remember?Julie: Yeah. You were at 9 centimeters for six hours.April: Yeah. yeah.Julie: It was at the six-hour check. Baby moved down just one station. Just enough for them to let you keep going. Just enough.April: Yeah, just enough. It was so awesome. Just enough which was awesome. And so anyway, we did that and I’ve got to say again, God showed up big time because we literally sent out a text to friends and that entire last 45 minutes, Julie had felt really inspired to change up our plan of what positions we were going to do for this special circuit that worked out perfectly timing-wise. My husband gave me a priesthood blessing and literally during that blessing, which it’s, just to say for those who don’t know, it is a very personal, specific prayer with added authority. And anyway, during that, we heard her on the monitor totally move which, we hadn’t heard movement like that for a long time.Julie: You could literally hear her moving down and into position on the monitor during the blessing.April: It was so cool.Julie: It was the coolest.April: It was amazing. We knew that there were tons of people praying for us at that moment. So it’s just so cool and I swear that’s how we were successful last time too amongst all the other things. But yeah. And so we got to that part and sure enough, the doctor came in, and it was a doctor who had just got back on shift for the night shift again. We had actually gotten into the hospital the night before, and so it was the same doctor that we had the first conversation with when we went in. Julie and I think he was just the right doctor and she was waiting for him to get there because as soon as he got there, she moved and he checked again, and we were finally ready.He was like, “Okay.” First, he said he was going to help move her. How did he phrase it?Julie: He said he was going to try to turn her head because she was coming down a little asynclitic.April: Yeah. He was like, “I won’t use forceps or anything. If you are okay with it, I will just reach up there and try to assist her because she is mid-spin. But I think if I can assist her with this little leftover cervical lip--” which was just a tiny bit. He said, “If I can help her get past that, then I think she will be ready and then we can start pushing.” And just before he did that, Julie was shocked. She told me this has never happened, but he got this look on his face and he said, “You know? Actually, would you be willing to push? Let’s just see what happens. Could you just give me a push and we will see?”Julie: Like, push through the lip. No providers ever say that. They don’t say like, “Just start to push a little.” As doulas we are like, “Can she just push a little bit? It will probably push it away.” Meagan, do you hear that? It was just so crazy to me.Meagan: Yeah. I hear it. The hard thing is, sometimes it is so stretchy that a little extra oomph will have the cervix slip over and then sometimes it goes the opposite way and it actually swells because you are pushing against a cervix that is not ready to stretch.Julie: Yeah. That’s true. Yeah.Meagan: And so once in a while, a provider will say, “Hey, can you just give me a little push, and then I will feel it. And then I will be like, ‘Oh it reduced and it stayed,’” but if it reduces and then it comes back, the cervix is not ready. So continuing to push isn’t usually the best idea. But for you, it worked. Yeah.Julie: Yeah.April: Wow, interesting. Yeah. It totally worked. And so yeah. He literally said that and we were like, “Okay. Yeah. We tried it and then he was like-- what did he say? “Oh yeah. We are ready. Okay.”Julie: Oh yep. Cervix is gone. Keep pushing.April: Okay. We need to push. We’re going to start pushing. And then they had already pretty much prepped the room hours before. But yeah. Then there was a little bit of extra commotion and he was like, “Okay, let’s start pushing-pushing. It’s time.” We only pushed for about 20 minutes and then he gave her a good pull at the end there. I was really hoping he wouldn’t pull on her and that did cause a little bit-- she had a tiny bit of shoulder dystocia right at the very end. It almost wasn’t even enough to call it shoulder dystocia but enough that he did give her a little bit of a pull at the end which was not part of my birth plan, but I don’t know that he read it even though I did. I had it all printed out and everything, but I don’t know if he saw that. But he did pull on her and we had to have a little bit of bodywork done on her afterward because it did injure a muscle in between her neck and her shoulder. But she is okay now. It’s all good. But yeah. We pushed for 20 minutes. He assisted in pulling her out, and she was born and was healthy, and it was great. And for the first time ever, other than with my stillbirth, we didn’t have to have her whisked away. Actually, even with our stillbirth, they did still have to take her, and clean up, and do some things before we got to spend time with her directly.This time, she was born and they brought her right up to me, and my husband cut the cord, and I bawled like a baby. You’ll see that in the picture that I picked for my story. We both did. It was just awesome. Yeah. It was just a really beautiful experience and the recovery for both of us has been so much better. She, like I said, had a little bit of bodywork that needed to be done, but that was still pretty minor considering all things, and yeah. She’s been thriving. Our breastfeeding experience post-birth has been actually amazing. I’ve always had issues with that afterward.I talked to the lactation specialist we hired. Gosh, I can’t even remember the abbreviation. It’s like, IBCLC or something like that, right?Julie: Yeah.April: Anyway, we hired one of those to come and actually help us in that first week after birth and I was talking about everything with her and the other births. I’ve always had problems with drying up at five weeks, my milk, for just no reason. I did this crazy feeding and pumping, and that’s all I would do, a routine and everything but no matter what, I would always dry up around five weeks. I am happy to say that I am at five weeks now and we have tons-- well, not tons of milk. We are still working on getting more, but we have way more milk than I have ever had before.I was just talking to her about the difference and if Cesareans affect that. She had worked in a hospital for a long, long time before she actually decided to go solo and do her consulting individually, and she said that there was totally a correlation with that in her opinion from what she had seen professionally and really had helped. So I just thought that was a really cool added benefit that I was like, “No. I don’t know if that was part of why we needed to do a VBAC this time too.” I’m not sure what all the reasons are. I feel like they just keep coming, but I feel like that’s what this baby needed. It was a really beautiful experience for us and recovery afterward has been night-and-day different I will say.Some people will say a Cesarean recovery isn’t that bad. I will not say that it is the worst thing ever but I will beg to differ. Between a VBAC recovery, and a Cesarean, or vaginal birth, I would definitely go with a VBAC for moms. I did get one stitch this time. I am proud of my one stitch.Meagan: That’s really good.April: That’s nothing. I know. Yeah. I know that there are people that have it way, way worse. So anyway. Every birth is beautiful. I totally think it’s just really amazing and always very grateful for everybody’s happy outcome. But I do think it’s important to go with what you feel is right for you and your baby, and sometimes that’s going to look different for each baby. Each pregnancy is not the same. But for us, I’m really glad that we finally did say “yes” to the things like hiring a doula, finding out what a doula was, finding The VBAC Link.Julie: Yay.April: Hiring Julie and really felt a strong-- even picking Julie out actually was an awesome spiritual thing for us too because here was this stranger that I didn’t even know was in my state let alone not too far for me doing this VBAC Link that I just randomly found when I was looking up VBAC stuff. I had even emailed her which I didn’t even realize that I forgot I had done. When I did go to hire her, she was like, “Oh yeah. You emailed me months ago.” I was like, “I did?” I just knew that Julie was the doula that I needed because not every doula is the same. I think they probably are all amazing but you have got to find the people that are the right fit for you for your team and for your journey, and we did. We are just really grateful that it all worked out.Julie: Yeah. It was a beautiful birth. Beautiful story.Meagan: So, so happy for you.Julie: So many spiritual and amazing experiences happened with the providers and just everything. It was just a really sacred thing and it was an honor to be a part of it. I appreciate you letting me into that space and I appreciate you sharing your story with all of us today.April: Yeah. Thanks for having me on.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Dads are constantly flooded with messages to be helpful and supportive to their birthing partner, but where are those specific tips on how to do just that?Cue David Arrell. David has developed a passion for everything surrounding birth with his main focus centered around helping dads learn the things he wished he knew when he became a dad for the first time. According to his own words, “I am just a dude who has been through this journey.”With his very specific dad tips as well as big ideas, David’s advice will take your birth support partner from feeling clueless, guilty, and overwhelmed to feeling hopeful, empowered, and inspired. When both partners learn to be a strong team during pregnancy, their bond during labor and throughout parenting will thrive even more.And the tip that gets 100% of his recommendation? “Dude, Hire a Doula.”Additional linksThe VBAC Link on Apple PodcastsDavid's website: Welcome to FatherhoodWelcome to Fatherhood: The Modern Man's Guide to Pregnancy, Childbirth, and FatherhoodFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Happy, happy Wednesday everybody. This is Meagan and Julie. You are listening to The VBAC Link. You are going to be excited just like we are for this episode today, so make sure you are somewhere where you can hear all the words, and honestly, you probably want your birth partners to list them as well. We have David Arrell. He is an author, entrepreneur, consultant, and men’s coach currently in Colorado. We have actually had quite a few special guests in Colorado which is really fun. He is passionate about coaching men on how to more fully embrace and embody help, masculinity, and especially through the powerful modalities of partnership. His most recent work-- now I can’t speak.Julie: Sorry.Meagan: You’re fine. --in this area is a book and we have the book. We are so excited. It’s called Welcome to Fatherhood and I really like it because it is like “WTF”.Julie: WTF.Meagan: Through the whole thing, it’s the modern man’s guide to pregnancy, childbirth, and fatherhood better known as WTF. So this is really a big deal because in so many ways, and I even talk about this with my doula clients. There are so many things in pregnancy that are so woman-focused or birther-focused, right? We kind of forget sometimes about dad and his role. That’s, as the doula, so important for me not to forget that and make sure that dad doesn’t feel that because I remember the day in my second labor. I remember my husband had to sleep on the couch in the corner and everyone coming in not addressing him, not talking to him, not saying anything that’s happening, not asking him has an opinion on anything, and it only revolves around me, and so I just think this is so awesome. A lot of dads enter childbirth clueless not because they don’t want to know, but because people don’t include them, right?And then fatherhood. I also know that as a mom and my husband, we’ve had times where I’m like, “No. I am doing it right and he is doing it wrong.” I remember someone saying, “You are both doing it right. You are doing it your way,” and I loved that. So I am really excited to talk to him today and get to know more about his book, and the role, and the fourth trimester coming back home, and how to give these tips to these dads because they need them.Julie: I was just going to jump in and say, “I love this,” because David, our guest today, literally wrote the book for dads about the fourth trimester, what to do when you get home with baby, well, I mean, it is for pregnancy, and childbirth, and fourth trimester, right? So that’s the first three months after the baby is born. It’s from a dad‘s perspective. He gets it. He has been there. That’s what me and Meagan really like about it because, at The VBAC Link, we are doulas, but we have also had VBACs. We have been there. We get you. I feel like he is right on our level, but talking to the dads because yes, like Meagan said, dads, a lot of time, get forgotten. I wish my husband would’ve had something like this back when we started into parenting because he was completely oblivious about pregnancy, and birth, and everything. I dragged him to a HypnoBirthing class but that’s about it, and now he knows way more about birth than he ever thought he would ever have dreamed to know about, but this is going to be really helpful. So we are excited. We have asked our social media followers questions. We have some questions for him. Review of the WeekJulie: But anyway, before I keep talking, holy cow. Let me read a Review of the Week.This is from Natalie in San Diego. It is on Apple Podcasts and she says, “I am SO thankful I found this podcast. I’ve always wanted a vaginal birth and felt like I could never get one after my C-section in 2018. I started listening to this podcast when I got pregnant (currently 28 weeks) and then I asked my provider if I was a good candidate and she said, ‘No.’”Dang it. Oh my gosh. Sorry. That kind of caught me off guard. That was probably a little bit of an inappropriate laugh. That’s what I do when I get caught off guard. I laugh inappropriately. All right, let’s see.“She said, ‘No,’ so I resigned to the fact that I would need a RCS with this pregnancy and stopped listening for about a month but the nagging feeling that I could ask more questions and advocate for myself more just never went away. I started listening again and realized that so many women switch providers late in the game so why couldn’t I? After requesting my post-op report and asking my OB more questions, I realized that I am a good candidate and that she just wasn’t supportive, so at 26 weeks I switched to an amazingly supportive provider here in San Diego, hired a doula, and signed up for HypnoBirthing!” Hey, speaking of HypnoBirthing…“I’m doing everything I can to educate myself and am so hopeful for a VBAC this April or early May.”Oh my gosh, maybe like right now.“I wouldn’t have had the courage to do any of this without the stories from the women on this podcast so thank you!!!”Do you like my commentary? I don’t think I can read a review without jumping in and putting my own thoughts into the review. Anyway, talk about being long-winded. Okay so, thank you for the review. We love reviews. You already know that if you haven’t had a chance yet, please go leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google or Facebook. Wherever you leave us a review, it will help us reach other people, so if you enjoy the podcast and think everybody should have a listen, definitely go ahead and give us a review in whichever is in the easiest place for you to do so.Q&A with David ArrellMeagan: Okay, David. We are excited to dive in with you. We have questions and all these things that we want to ask you, but I would love to invite you to share a little bit more about your book because I know I just went right through it. But tell us more. What inspired you to do this?David: Sure. Thanks for having me on, ladies. I really appreciate it. I think part of my inspiration was the gap that I experienced as a guy who has really committed to trying to be that “helpful and supportive partner” and I thought I was doing all the things. As our first pregnancy, and then ultimately the labor and delivery, and then that first experience for us of that fourth trimester, I have looked back and I realized there are so many opportunities where I wish I had done some things a little bit differently, but I realized I didn’t get the information, or the education or the encouragement that I felt would have helped me be that much more helpful and supportive for my wife during her pregnancy, and childbirth, and coming back home. So I looked around and even the birth classes I took, the amazing doula we worked with, which I will circle back to later, and some of the books I read, there just wasn’t that sort of succinct, clear sort of discussion of some of the things that are really important for us guys to really get a better sense of. And also, just some specific things like, “Hey, guys. Really think about doing this,” or “If you did this one thing a little bit differently, you might have more success.” So that was my main inspiration. It was to pave the path a little easier for the guys coming after me who are going to be going through their own sort of pregnancy adventure.Meagan: Love it. Love it. You know, I have a client, a husband, who started a podcast. Kind of the same thing. He was just like, “After the first birth experience, I just realized there was so much more that dads needed to know,” so I love what you guys are doing. This is going to be awesome. So are you ready for the list of questions? Julie, I don’t know if you want to go back and forth, but we have a list of questions that some of our followers have asked. Julie: Yeah.Meagan: if you don’t mind, I would love to jump into those.Julie: Let’s do it.David: Sure. Let’s jump right in.Meagan: Perfect. Okay, so number one is: Best advice for husbands to support wife in labor? I know you talk about pregnancy a lot in your book too. You talk about all of it, all the trimesters, but we are going to jump right into labor. Best advice for husbands to support their wives in labor?David: Sure. The way I describe that journey though, going into labor, is if the pregnancy is a rollercoaster going up the hill, slowly working its way to the top, once you realize, “Oh wow. We are really in labor,” that’s when that rollercoaster crests the hill and goes zooming down the other side. It’s a very different sort of immediacy for all parties concerned.The main thing I tell the guys out there is Big Idea #10 in the book. The book has Big Ideas and Dad Tips. But Big Idea #10 is that your new mantra is to be attentive, be calm, and be competent. At the end of the day, regardless of all the other things going on, if you as the dad, the partner, perhaps the most important support partner in the room here, if you can maintain that mantra and really be attentive to mama and all of the things that are happening for her whether it’s holding a hand, or rubbing a brow, or adjusting a position for more comfort, or be calm.There are definitely times I know in my wife’s childbirth and some of the guys I talk to also where things get a little active, but still, for us guys, we have to be calm. We have to be that rock in the storm of the emotions and feelings for our partners to connect to. And then being competent. This comes down to feeling like you have done the work ahead of time with the education and the practice where you feel pretty good about what your role is, what it’s not, and how to really show up as that competent person throughout this process. So that’s the mantra. Be attentive, be calm, and be competent.Meagan: Yes. I love that. You know, something that happened in one of my labors-- I have had three babies and my third baby, my labor was 40--Julie: Are you going to tell the story about the pillow? You should tell the pillow story.Meagan: Oh no, but I should. 42-hour long laborDavid: Wow.Meagan: My husband had a not-so-supportive moment where I was doing my thing in my zone. Sometimes we moan. That’s what we do. Our uterus is the strongest muscle in our body and it’s contracting around a baby really hard. It doesn’t feel awesome so you have to work through it, right? He totally shoved a pillow in my face and told me to muffle myself because he and the other kids were trying to sleep.Julie: I think that Rick needs a copy of your book.Meagan: I know. But there was a moment in my labor and I had been laboring for a really, really really, long time, and what had happened that I just still to this day will remember the feeling that came over me. All he did was touch my back and lean into me, kind of just grazed around my head and my shoulders, and it was a complete moment of, “I am not alone in this,” even though I knew I wasn’t alone. I had a great team. Just that touch was exactly what I needed and like you said, it could be a touch of a brow, or an adjustment, or just being there. It was just amazing. So I would not disagree at all with that.David: I’m glad he bounced back. That’s good. That’s good.Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Between that and then when he looked at me and was like, “Remember, this is what you wanted.” I was like, “This is not what you say to me right now.”David: Well, that’s the trick. So many of us guys get these-- the general vibe is we are told to be helpful and supportive.Meagan: But you don’t know how.David: But we are not given explicit instruction beyond that and so we guess, and then we guess wrong, and we get frustrated, and so that’s exactly it. It’s the different challenges that we go through and the learning curves that can be really steep sometimes.Meagan: Absolutely.Julie: Yeah. I get that. Do you know what’s so funny? While you were just talking, we are actually going to make the link to where you can go and buy David’s book Welcome to Fatherhood and the link, I just had to say this because it is so funny. The link is going to be thevbaclink.com/wtf. So we will make it super easy for you to go and find his book.Meagan: I love it.David: Exactly. That sentiment is very popular.Julie: I mean, yes. You started at Tip #10, right? So I am just like, “Yeah. It’s really good stuff.” I haven’t read all of it, but I have skimmed through it and I have had my husband skim as well and there is some really good stuff here. So we are going to put it in the show notes. This is normally what we would do at the end of the episode, but I just had to say it. I am making the link right now. So anyway. Great stuff.I remember my husband felt helpless too. For my Cesarean birth, he still says it was the scariest moment in his life. Watching me on the operating room table, not knowing if I was okay, not knowing if baby was okay and I’m sure he would have really appreciated this type of advice to help him because men instinctively have this nature to support their partners and fix the problem, right? They want to be strong and they want to be able to comfort them, and childbirth is such a foreign concept that it can really-- what are the words I’m looking for? It can really just, it’s not familiar to you. So you don’t really know what to do and it can cause birth partners sometimes to feel a little hung up, and uncertain, and unsure, so just giving them these tools, like you talked about, and telling them what to do-- yeah. You are supposed to be supportive of your wife during labor, but this is how you do that. I think it’s so valuable. It’s so valuable. So I really appreciate that.Oh, next question. I guess that’s on me.David: Well, let me jump in with one quick thing here.Meagan: Sure.David: One of the challenges as guys I have seen happen in my experience and some of my buddies is that we get into the labor and delivery and like you mentioned, it’s overwhelming, it’s a novel experience, but then also, that sort of fix-it vibe just doesn’t work. There’s nothing for us to fix. Our partners are maybe going through some pretty intense experiences and sensations, and we are just sort of supposed to be-- you know, we feel very helpless sometimes. I remember at one point, my wife was squeezing my head really hard and she was really having a challenging series of contractions there and I just felt so helpless. And so that’s where I think this mantra comes in, but I definitely wanted to touch base on one other thing. I think it’s one of the Dad Tips that I am very strong on. Most of them are recommendations, but this one, I am very strong on and that’s Dad Tip #7: “Dude, Hire a Doula.”Julie: Yes.David: That would get 100% of my recommendation energy. Some of them are 60, 70, does this work for you? But dude, hire a doula. That doula is going to be your wingman too. Not just your partner’s, but your wingman to really help you. They can give you some tips. They can give you some direction. They can help normalize some of the beeping and some of the other things that are going on. Again, I can circle back to this a little bit later, but that’s definitely what will help you focus on your job which is to be that supportive partner. Most dads out there are not birth professionals, so you can just focus on your partner and your mantra, and let your doula really help adjust you as necessary. So I didn’t want to skip over that Dad Tip #7: “Dude. Hire a Doula.” Please.Julie: I love that you said that. It reminds me of an article I read a long time ago. I think it was called, Just Hire the Damn Doula. It was a blog.David: Perfect.Julie: it was a dad‘s perspective and he was just like, “This is why you need a doula. Do you know what to do when she is at 4 centimeters and she’s only been there for three hours? No, you don’t. Do you know how much blood is normal? No, you don’t. Do you know what positions to do to help or what labor positions to help encourage baby to descend? No, you don’t know that.” He was just like, “You just need a doula.” Anyway, that was a really broad explanation of the article, but I love that. As a doula myself, I make my clients’ partners be present at their prenatal visits because it’s really important to me to not only get to know the dynamic of their relationship so I can better strengthen that during the labor process, but also so I can get to know the dad and how to support him because doulas are also for dads. I know a lot of times they think, “Oh yeah, doulas are just for the mom, but we are here just as much for you guys to help you know how to best support your partner. The best feeling in the whole world is right after the baby is born and then the dad comes over and gives me a great big hug and I am totally not a hugger. Like as I doula, I can put my hug face on and I can hug if people want touch and stuff, but by nature, I am not a hugger. But when a dad comes and grabs me off my feet-- I just remember this one particular moment. He spins me around and he is like, “Thank you so much.” This was after a VBAC birth and I was just like, “Wow. This is really cool.” It is just really extra special when the dads say those kinds of things.Every dad is a little bit different, but I really appreciate that you say that. I think it’s important because a lot of times, dads think that doulas will replace them, but really, a good doula will really work on enhancing your relationship in knowing how to better support your wife. Okay, ready for the next question?David: Sure.Julie: All right. So I don’t know. We kind of have already talked about this. I think there might be some overlap a little bit in some of these things, but you have got lots of great tips and advice in your book, so I am sure that we are not even going to scratch the surface into that, but the question is: What do you tell men to do to support women during pregnancy?David: The subtitle of the book is “Better connected, better prepared.” And so I think that focus really helps shape some of the suggestions that follow in that envelope and that’s what is so important. I think some of the dads out there-- I know for me, that connecting bit was tricky because my experience of pregnancy is sort of like it’s happening over there whereas, for my wife and every other person who has been pregnant, it’s literally the biggest deal ever. It’s like, “No. This is now. I am already a mom. I am monitoring my vitamins, and sushi, and which cheese I should eat,” and all of these different things. That sense of motherhood is very real but whereas for us dads, a lot of times, we don’t think we are dads until the baby gets here.So one of the things I think that’s important to remember is that both of those truths are true for each person, but for us dads, there is plenty of opportunity for us to reach over and really try to better connect with mama and her experiences, and just knowing how real and important that is, is a great first step to putting that as a top-tier priority rather than just sort of like, “Oh yeah. We are pregnant and the baby will be here in a couple of months,” kind of thing.So there are so many things you can do as the dad to really get in there. I mentioned hiring a doula is a great thing, a birth class where are you are excited and you want to take on that. You’re just as excited about the birth class as mama is. That’s a great way to really foster that connection where you are going through that together and learning about it together. Another thing I like are some of these pregnancy tracking apps where-- I know my wife and I really enjoyed each week, as the pregnancy progressed, sitting down and watching the five or ten-minute little video about what’s happening this week. Some of them are pretty funny. They compare the size of a growing baby to French pastries or random, exotic animals, and so we would laugh about how baby is the size of a hedgehog this week or the size of a croissant, a big one.So those things where you’re really connecting with mama and really doing your part to get really on the inside of her journey as well, all of those things are great ideas because at the end of the day, the goal is to really have that relationship be really strong and vibrant as you are going through the delivery, and then you come home for that fourth trimester because now you’re parents together. Now is not the time to figure out how to be a team. Being a team starts during that pregnancy.Meagan: Yes, yes. Love that. I love that. If you can walk in as a team, into parenthood, it’s just going to set yourself up so much better.Julie: And can I just say, dad? Even if you don’t love the whole “baby is the size of a kumquat” thing, just pretend you do.David: Exactly.Julie: Just pretend.David: Exactly.Julie: Just fake it until you make it.Meagan: Or if the class that you are taking is HypnoBabies or HypnoBirthing and you’re like, “Oh, this is really weird,” try your hardest to get in there. I know sometimes it is far-fetched or far out there and it’s like, “This is so strange,” but this is something that she may have picked that resonated with her to help her cope through this labor journey, and crazy enough, it will connect. Like when you said, “Take childbirth education classes,” it will connect you two together so much more and help you in all stages.Julie: I love it.David: Exactly. It’s funny, I’ve heard some dad say, “Well, I am not having a baby, you are.” Like, discussing this with their partners about these different things and you know, not that they are adamant about it, but that’s their reality and I’m like, “Yeah dads. I get it.” Having a baby is a huge deal. I mean, it’s easy for some guys to think, “Well, that’s how all of us got here. There may be one or two test-tube babies running around, but we all got here this way,” and it’s like, well, this is the first-time experience or second-time experience for your partner. This is a very huge deal. Don’t look at it in the abstract. Look at it in the concrete. Your partner is excited and enthusiastic, as are you. It’s meaningful. It’s a little bit scary. There’s a lot of uncertainty. Really get in there to be that supportive partner by connecting with her and her journey rather than sort feeling like you need to stay on your side of the fence in your journey. So that connection piece is so important.Julie: Great life advice too.Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, seriously. You know what? Are you going to write the next one on marriage? Because all of these tips-- this is also how to have a really great date. Julie: We’re taking notes. I’ll give it to my husband. I’ll be like, “Read this. Just kidding.”David: That all becomes so much more pressing once baby gets here. I am a terrible illustrator but if I had any skill, I would have drawn a little series of two stick figures: mama, dada, and then a little small tiny baby stick figure. This is what you think it’s going to be, and then the second one would have been the same size mama, dada, and then this giant Michelin Manbaby illustration like, this is the impact of a new baby on your lives. It is not this third thing that joins you.Meagan: It’s not tiny.David: No. It’s just the middle and the center of everything.Meagan: Yes.David: So now is the time to forge those teammate bonds.Meagan: Love that.Julie: Yes, absolutely.Meagan: Love that. Okay, so this is a hard one because sometimes I know it can be daunting when you are in the birth room and in labor and stuff, but it says: Do you encourage men to stand up for their wives’ wishes during labor and birth? And I’m going to add on to that one and say: If you do, what do you feel like is the best way for a dad to say, “Okay. I know she didn’t want this. I am going to try to make sure that we go about this a different way”?David: Well, my first answer is yes, absolutely. Dad is the main support person looking out for the bigger picture. I know there were times in my wife’s-- especially with our first baby where she couldn’t hear anybody else in the room. She couldn’t see anybody else, hear anybody else. It was sort of that fugue state that some women go through and she needed me to basically repeat everything that the doula was asking or our OB was asking.So yes, you need to be fully connected there. This circles back to-- I mentioned a doula already, but having that really trusted birth team where both mama and dada can really feel like their birth team is on the same page with you. They are looking out for your best interest and baby’s best interest obviously as well. But that birth team coming in, as I mentioned before, most dads aren’t going to be birth professionals, but that’s where that birth team comes in.So to whatever degree you can start with that team, really be all on the same page. We have gone over the birth preferences. We understand where we want to go with this whether it’s what types of pain management we want to use, with breathing, or massage, or etc. But there are times where things might get a little tricky.Like for example, during our first birth, we had a very low intervention birth, no pain medications, and at one point, my wife was struggling a little bit. They wanted to put an oxygen mask on her face and she did not want that. She was trying to swat it away and I felt like I needed to go with her wishes rather than whatever the nurse was trying to do. And so I gently removed the oxygen mask from her face. I looked at both our doula as well as the OB and I am like, “if she doesn’t absolutely need this right now, then it’s only going to cause her more duress and anxiety to be fighting off this mask which is not what we are looking for.” And they both agreed. But that was on me to not just sort of automatically go with whatever is happening, but to remind them of what our plan was.So again, absolutely stand up for those wishes during the labor and birth. The more you are on the same page with both your wife or your partner and that birth team ahead of time, the easier it is for you to do that because you are not worrying about somebody coming in and trying to change the birth plan, or there is a shift change and a new OB comes in and they have a different idea or they haven’t read your birth preferences, so the more you’re clear about that as a team, I think the easier it is for us guys to be less focused on being an intervention blocker and more focused on being that supportive teammate with our mantra of being attentive, and calm, and competent, focusing on our birthing partner and being supportive for her.Meagan: Yes. I love that. So tell me, I am trying to think how to ask this. What tips would you give for those dads who are very medical-minded? and trust-- I don’t want this to sound negative. My husband is very much like, “What the doctor says, we do because the doctor is the professional. He went to school. He knows it.” But then there are also times where I am like, “But that’s really not what I want and I have researched differently.”He told me that he felt like I put him in a really hard place because he was like, “I feel like I was against you and the doctor because I believed what the doctor was saying but you wanted something more. I wanted to make you happy, but I wanted to do what he said because I was worried.” Do you know what I mean? What tip, if you have any, specifically for that type of situation where we have got a dad who doesn’t know how to navigate that feeling that they have?David: I think you hit a really, that’s a really perfect space because that’s where it can be so tricky for us guys. Especially if we have had some experiences in the past where doctors have been helpful or if we have had experiences in the past where they have been unhelpful. We are bringing our own stuff into this equation also. And I think, I know doulas are explicitly focused on the non-medical aspects of all of that birth, but having a doula with you where you can at least have a consultant. It’s okay in about 98% of the circumstances to say, “You know what? I need to think about this for a minute.”Julie: Yes.David: I mean, if it’s not an emergency, emergency, then you can always ask for a few minutes. You can try to speak with your partner depending on her level of awareness, and consciousness, and interest in the topic, and your doula as well, or even phone a friend. But you usually have time.Sometimes I find that those circumstances relax a little bit when you create some time around them to really sit with it and check-in with your partner. “I know our birth preferences. We wanted to do A. They are really recommending B. What should we, can we wait a few minutes? Do we need to decide now?” Because things can change pretty quickly in a birth and sometimes waiting, things sort of tend to clarify both whether it’s the circumstances shift, or the answer that you are working with shifts, or your agreement around the answer shifts.So I would say, look for more time to let things settle or simmer a little bit more before you make a decision. If you don’t need to make it right that second, then look for some time. That will usually help the consensus clarify where you’re not feeling like you’re being pushed into making a decision because nobody likes that sense of being rushed into a decision especially if it doesn’t need to be made right that second.Julie: Yeah.Meagan: Love it. Love it, love it, love it. Time. Okay.Julie: Absolutely. Great advice.Meagan: All right, Julie. You are on the next question.Julie: All right. These last two made me chuckle. Okay.How do you convince your husband to read this book and be a better support?Meagan: Yeah.David: You know, that’s a great question. I joke sometimes that-- this material, I started offering in a workshop format, an in-person workshop.Julie: That’s cool.David: The challenge was that the guys who most needed the workshop were the ones that were actually the most oblivious to the fact that they needed the workshop.Julie: Yeah.David: So well, I think there are a couple things I will mention. One, this book is not like many of the other books out there. Some of the books out there are 500 pages. They are very encyclopedic which is great for the guys that really want to get into those details of the changes mama is going through, the developmental trajectory of baby, but for guys who aren’t interested in that, it’s just all starts to sound like Charlie Brown’s teacher. It’s like, “Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah.” And they’re like, “God, what am I supposed to do? Where is the part where it says, ‘do this?’”Julie: Yeah.David: So that’s the book I wrote. These are some specific things you can do at various times in the pregnancy, and labor, and even the fourth trimester. All the dad tips. There are 28 of them in there, but each of them are very specific for that time period. Dad Tip #, randomly, #2 is knowing the baby’s age in weeks. The baby is not four months. You probably wouldn’t know it at five weeks, but they are 12 weeks, or 15 weeks, or 17 weeks. That is relevant early on, but that falls away once you are in labor and delivery. It doesn’t matter how many weeks you are at this point. So those are very specific things. That’s what the book is built on. It is built on these very specific dad tips as well as these big ideas that helps shape your understanding.I joked with you earlier that one of the early subtitles I was playing around was, “All the things I wish I did better the first time.”Julie: Yeah. I know. We could all write a book like that.David: Right. Right. But that’s kind of the goal is like, I want the guys out there to have a chance to read this and their list, which, there will be a list of things they wished they did better the first time, or even the second time, or third time. I want that list to be shorter than mine.So that’s where it is coming from. It’s not another, “You are doing it wrong” kind of book and it’s not super encyclopedic. It’s short. It’s sweet. It’s pretty much to the point. It’s written by, I am just a dude who has been through this journey. I talk a little bit. It’s straight talk. I have done a great job in not cursing on the podcast, but there are some curse words mixed in there, a little salt and pepper, because when us guys get joking around, sometimes our language flows a little bit more freely.That’s how the book is written. It’s not preachy. It’s not, again, like I mentioned, not a “You are doing it wrong” book. It’s like, “Hey man. Yeah. This is challenging. It’s tough and sometimes it’s really hard.” One of the early big ideas is what I call the “Dude Zone to Dad Zone and Avoiding the Dud Zones”.Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say I saw that in there. “Avoiding the Dud Zones”. Yes.David: Yeah. The two dud zones I talk about-- I talk about the journey you are on. I tell the guys, “You don’t know it, but right now you’re on this journey from the dude zone to the dad zone. The dude zone is when you’re hanging out. You have your relationship. You have your job and all these other hobbies and cool things that are priorities for you, and now that you are going to be, you are a dad, but you’re going to be a dad when the baby gets here, as these expectant fathers are thinking, but you need to move into that dad zone,” which is shifting some things around, looking at things a little bit differently, re-prioritizing a couple things and during that pregnancy journey, things are really tricky for us guys because we know we are supposed to be helpful and supportive. We don’t know what that means and we bump into doing it wrong a lot.We are guessing. We are sort of like, “Well, I don’t know.” We are trying to figure it out, and so the two dud zones I talk about are Wimpy Town on the left and Jerkville on the right. Wimpy Town are the guys that just gave up on trying to figure it out and they basically say something to the effect of, “Just tell me what to do and I will do that.” They are defeated. They have given up on trying to figure out because they’re just tired. They are just frustrated with guessing wrong but that’s not really a good place to be. No expectant mama wants to have to tell her partner what to do, and when to do it, and all of that kind of stuff. That’s not a good teammate or good teamwork there.And on the other side is Jerkville. Those are the guys that occasionally will be like, “You know what? I don’t know what to do. I’m guessing. You do it. I saw a zebra pop out a baby last night on a nature show and the zebra was running around five minutes later. I don’t quite understand what’s going on here.” They get a little testy and defiant. That journey to the dad zone, you can bump into those dud zones a lot.There were many times I felt like I had one foot in Wimpy Town and one foot in Jerkville and I was like, “I don’t know what to do. I really want to be great and to be an awesome partner, but last night this worked and then tonight, the same thing is the worst idea ever. I am trying to remain connected but it is just really tricky.” So that’s where I am coming from. A lot of what I am trying to offer here is specific tips to help these guys make that journey from the dude zone to the dad zone with fewer slips into those dud zones. So that’s another reason I would say, give it a shot out there.Julie: Love it.Meagan: That’s awesome.Julie: That’s great. Yeah. I am going to add in a little question before Meagan asks the last one and we wrap it up. What about the dads who are less assertive? I know for some dads, it’s harder for them to stand up for their partner in the birth room. It’s harder for them to tell the doctor that they want to do something different even if they agree that they should do something different. Everybody’s personalities are different, but what advice would you give for those dads who are less confrontational but who want to be a solid, strong support for their wife?David: That’s a really good question.Meagan: Yeah. Would time still be the suggestion or do you feel like there is a different approach for those guys?David: I think time is always a great first place to start because then you have a chance to marinate a little bit and think about what the question is that is being asked of you or the suggestion. You have a chance to speak it over, talk it over a little bit with you. Ideally again, this gets back to that doula and having a great doula as your wingman. This is a great resource for us guys to discuss some of these things and also to check in with our partner and see how they’re feeling. Sometimes, something that is very clear in the birth plan or the birth preferences, as things progress, your partner may change her mind also and you don’t want to be adamantly holding the ground against something that your partner has now shifted her opinion on too.So that’s where having those conversations-- but it’s tricky. I am not an OB. I am not a midwife. I am not an auto mechanic. I am not going to argue against these people too strongly when they are specifically trained to do these things and I am not. So it’s really hard because most of us guys who aren’t birth professionals don’t really feel like we have too strong of a leg to stand on when push comes to shove.Julie: Yeah.David: We want our partners to be safe. We want our babies to be safe and that’s what the experts are there for ideally. That’s what their focus is too. So I still think time is your best first resource to ask for, and then to just confer with your partner and confer with other people on your birth team. “What would you do if this was your partner? What would you do if this was your baby?” could be some good questions to ask back or “What are some other options?” But at the end of the day, sometimes you have to make a decision and you just have to make the best one you can at the time with what information you have.Julie: Yeah. Totally. Yeah, I guess that was kind of a bad question. It had already been answered, but I think maybe you gave a different perspective from it and we learn by repetition, right? All right, Meagan, you are up. Last question.Meagan: Yeah. So one of the questions is: Are men actually reading your book? And I can almost guarantee that the answer is, “Yes”. But yeah, do you feel like you have had a good turnout from your book?David: Yeah. So far, it’s been pretty exciting. The book just came out in the fall of last year and one of the funny things about this is, assuming that they purchased a book somewhat early in the pregnancy, they are just now getting into the actual experience of having labor and delivery, and that fourth trimester. The sales have really been taking off recently which is great, but I have been starting to get some feedback from some of the guys out there and from some of the mamas too. I’ve gotten a couple thank you emails recently.Meagan: Awesome.David: I have gotten a couple more that said, “I probably should have taken you more seriously earlier in the journey.”Julie: Aw snap.Meagan: That’s awesome feedback though. You are like, “Yeah, okay. I am writing something really good here.” Yeah.Julie: You’re like, “Heck yeah. I’m so legit.”David: I got one. It was like, “It’s 3:00 a.m. I am working at one of your Dad Tips. My baby was crying. They are finally asleep in my arm and I am typing this on my phone with one hand, but thank you so much for this tip. This was great, some of the suggestions. I have looked back at the book also in some of the earlier chapters and I was thinking, ‘Yep. Should have done that. Yep. That would have been better.’”So ultimately, at the end of the day, it’s the guys out there who have had a chance to go through the pregnancy journey and now their buddies are going through their own pregnancy journey and their friends are asking them, “Hey, what kind of tips or advice do you have for me?” A couple of guys have said, “My first step is going to be to read this book and I am going to give them my copy.” And I am like, “That’s great. Pass it on.” Let the information get out there and make these birth experiences for all parties-- mama, dad, and baby too. Anything any of us can do to make that a little bit smoother and easier is great.So yes. Thankfully, they are reading it out there. Some of the mamas too. I got one email from a mama recently who, she had glanced through the book in preparation whether she should recommend it to her husband or not and she said she learned a lot about how he was looking at the pregnancy that she was able to be more, I don’t wanna say compassionate, but--Meagan: Understanding.David: Understanding, yeah. Like, “This is hard for him too. He is not only over there or not connecting with me, but he has got his own journey and a lot of this is new.” You can’t hold somebody accountable for something they haven’t been trained to do or informed about. So she was able to be a lot more understanding and workable in connecting with him and his journey too which I thought was awesome. I thought, “That was unexpected but great.” Teamwork makes the dream work.Meagan: Seriously though. That’s what I’m saying though. So many people are focused on what mom is doing. Mom is carrying baby. Mom is growing. Mom is doing this. Her boobs are getting big. You know, all these things, but it’s not like, you know what? Dad is struggling seeing her in pain. Dad is struggling seeing her not sleep very well. Dad is struggling with the fact that soon there’s going to be a child to take care of. You know? There is so much. And so I love that, that she was like, “I was able to understand his point of view too.” That is really cool. That is really, really cool.David: Yeah, that was neat. I really liked that one because, at the end of the day, the parenting partnership is what’s really going to be coming into play here, and whatever we can do to strengthen those bonds coming from both the mom’s side and the dad‘s side, that just makes that family unit so much stronger to work with those fourth trimester challenges, of which there can be many.Julie: Yeah.Meagan: Yes.David: So build those bonds now.Meagan: Well, and I just want to touch back on what you said, there is so much in your book that talks about things before baby even comes. And so Father’s Day is in June? When does this air?Julie: This is airing on June 2. When is Father’s Day?David: Awesome.Meagan: Okay, see? Father’s Day is not June 2. It is after. This is a great Father’s Day present. So I am just going to quickly go over a couple of the chapter titles. “The Dad Instinct” which, in my opinion, is awesome that you are calling it that. It seriously made me so happy when I saw that because we always talk about mama’s instinct, mom instinct knows best. Guess what? Dad’s instinct knows best too. So “Dad’s Instinct”, “We Are Pregnant: Through the First Trimester”, “The Second Trimester: Setting the Table”, “Third Trimester: Giddyup Cowboy”. Oh yeah. That’s when all of the complaining happens. “Labor and Delivery: The Time is Now”. “Welcome to Fatherhood: The Fourth Trimester”.And then he’s got tips and gift tracker spreadsheets, oh my gosh, go-bag essentials, birth plan topics, big ideas. I mean, there is so much in this amazing book. So ladies, grab this book for your husband. Read it together. Read it together.Julie: thevbaclink.com/wtfMeagan: WTF, yes.Julie: Alive and active. I just tested it on my browser. It is on Amazon, both paperback and audio versions.Meagan: Which is awesome. Are you the person reading it?David: The Kindle is available, but the audio version is not yet available.Julie: Oh sorry. I saw Kindle. Yeah.David: That’s okay.Julie: No, sorry.David: Yeah, Kindle is there. I did do the audio and I am waiting for that to get a little bit more polished up with some of my coughing and whatnot taken out, but that will be available soon too. So we are almost there.Julie: We can relate.Meagan: Awesome.Julie: Yay.Meagan: Okay ladies, Father’s Day is coming up. Definitely go grab this.Julie: Perfect. All right. Was there anything else you wanted to add before we cut you loose?David: No, this was great. I really enjoyed coming on here chatting with you ladies. Everything around birth is something I am super passionate about and like I said, anything out there that is helping people have a little bit easier, smoother journey is fantastic. So thanks again for having me on. I really appreciate it.Meagan: Thank you for joining us.Julie: Yeah, absolutely. It was fun having you on. All right, ladies, we are going to drop the link to his book in our bio, so go ahead and click on it there.Meagan: Do you have social media, David?David: I have a Facebook page that is pretty not active. I have been getting a lot of requests to get on Instagram and do some fun live videos, but I am a little bit behind the curve on that. So hopefully I can get that soon. But the website has tons of great resources on there. It’s just www.welcometofatherhood.com.Julie: Perfect.David: Like you mentioned, the birth plan, the gift tracker spreadsheet, and all kinds of cool stuff. So you can always reach me through there too and send me emails. I love emails. I love questions and comments so please send them on in.Meagan: Awesome.Julie: Perfect.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“There are a million paths to motherhood and there is no right way or wrong way. It is just your way.”Jesse Truelove with @movewithtruelove joins us on the podcast today and drops some serious truth bombs about birth, fitness, social media, and motherhood. We couldn’t be happier to have her with us and for you to hear the important messages she has to share! Our mission at The VBAC Link is to empower ALL women in their birthing choices, whatever they may be. We applaud all women for choosing the birth path that is best for THEM. There is no right or wrong way to give birth! Additional linksInstagram Live with Jesse and TVLBirth Words: Language For a Better Birth PodcastVBAC vs Repeat C-Section BlogMove with Truelove: Jesse’s websiteAB Rehab courseMove Your BumpFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Happy Wednesday, everybody. You are listening to The VBAC Link. This is Meagan. Julie is on with us and we have a special guest. Her name is Jesse Truelove. We are excited to talk about her episode today because this is something that is actually a first for The VBAC Link. We were just chatting a little bit before. We were like, “Why haven’t we had this happen?” because this is totally what we talk about, what we teach about in our courses, and this episode is where she had an emergency C-section, ended up recovering from a really difficult delivery and had very little support. And really, for her next child, when all was said and done, she decided to have a repeat C-section.And I love this. I love this because as The VBAC Link, as Meagan and Julie-- yes, I am talking for you, Julie. We are all about everybody making the best choice for them. That may not be a VBAC. Some people may not choose to have a VBAC. One of my best friends has had three C-sections. The first one was unexpected, two were scheduled. I love and support her in that even though that is not what I chose to do. I chose to VBAC. I support her in that and I am so grateful that she had that opportunity.So we are really excited to dive into this episode today and hear her story. She has done so much good in the world. After her births, she decided to dedicate her focus to helping moms recover fully from their pregnancy and delivery. We are going to talk all about that in the end because she has got some pretty cool stuff that she is in charge of.Review of the WeekMeagan: But of course, we have a Review of the Week before we dive right into it.Julie: All right, yes. The Review of the Week. This is kind of a long one, but I really feel like it goes in line with this episode. I’m going to tell you about how I shamelessly stalked Jesse after this. But this review was actually an email. We got an email from Christina T. We really love getting emails from people who we have helped along the way, and so if you want to reach out to us through Messenger, or email, or Instagram Messages, or leave a review on Apple Podcasts, or Google, or Facebook, or wherever you want. We reply to all of the email messages and DM’s that we do get. We love talking to people and hearing their stories. This is a long one, so bear with me, but I really like it. She says: “I wanted to tell you about my repeat C-section. On the podcast, I have heard that term so many times. ‘Hold space.’ For me, that’s what you ladies have been preparing me for these nine months without me knowing it. For holding space. “For nine months, I prepped for the VBAC of my dreams. I listened to every podcast, was a member of the Facebook group, did ‘all of the things to prepare for the birth I thought I so desperately needed. I was ready to have an unmedicated birth and to roar my baby into this world. At 32 weeks, we found out baby was breech. I had been going to the chiropractor twice a week and felt confident he would flip. He did not flip. I then started to kick on my Spinning Babies®, got acupuncture, did everything online I could come up with and he still would not flip. “Around this time was the week you guys had your repeat C-section podcast and for me, it was a sign to start mentally preparing for what might not be. I spent the next few weeks switching my mindset from feeling sorry for myself and switching it to feeling strong. It was during those weeks I thought to myself, ‘What am I missing? All of this education and research can’t have been for nothing.’ “That’s when it clicked for me. I had been preparing to hold space for what won’t be and I have the tools to do that. We scheduled my C-section and when March 8th came, I was as ready as I was going to be. The anesthesiologist came to the room and I knew it was going to be a wonderful experience. Prior to this baby, we had suffered two losses in a row. We needed to have a D&C for the second loss and all day, different staff members asked me to state in my own words what procedure I was having. Each time I would break into tears as it was a very difficult thing.“My doctor came into pre-op and instead of asking the same questions, he simply said, ‘I am sorry you are here for this procedure. Are you doing okay?’ The same kind, genuine man was going to be my anesthesiologist now. When I first walked into the OR, my stomach dropped. It was bright, cold, and sterile just like last time. My doctor must have sensed my heightened awareness and said, ‘Your baby is coming.’ And with that, I was ready. “We were able to drop the drapes, watch our son come into the world, and have skin-to-skin right away. It was night-and-day from our first experience. It was joyful and blissful, and I left a feeling like a mom and not a patient. I left feeling confident and like a bad-ass. I left holding space for my experience and for our story, and I will be forever grateful for that gift from you ladies. “Birth doesn’t always go as planned. Sometimes it is better.”And now, that gives me chills at the end. “Birth doesn’t always go as planned. Sometimes it’s better.”Meagan: I love that. Sometimes it’s better.Julie: I’m going to make that into an image.Meagan: Yes. Let’s make that an image and quote her because that same thing. I just got the chills.Julie: I know. I have goosebumps.Meagan: I was like, “Yes.” Sometimes it doesn’t go as planned, but it’s better. Yeah. I feel like I can connect to that even with my second C-section. I didn’t want that second C-section, but guess what? It was such an amazing experience and it healed my first birth experience.Julie: Yeah. I love that.Meagan: I love it. Awesome.Julie: All right. Well, let me tell a little bit of a funny story and then I promise I won’t take up much more time. Jesse, we did an Instagram Live with her on her Instagram page.Jesse: It’s still there.Julie: Yeah, @movewithtruelove, right? That’s what it’s called? It was really fun. This was a long time ago. We followed her and I just love her content. She has great content. Super fun. Her reels are amazing. I just love seeing her bright, beautiful face as I scroll through our feed and everything. I just have really enjoyed following along with her Instagram. I knew that she had a Cesarean and that she was pregnant again. I don’t even know this whole story, but at some point along the way, Jesse decided that she was going to have a repeat Cesarean instead of attempting a VBAC. I was like, “Oh my gosh. Okay, this is really cool. I need to follow along and see how this all ends up,” because we haven’t ever had a story on our podcast about somebody who had decided to have a repeat Cesarean.Meagan: Even though there are tons of people out there.Julie: Even though there are lots of people that do all the time.Meagan: Tons, yeah.Julie: All of our C-section stories--Meagan: In fact, a large chunk of people, the majority do.Julie: Yes. Yes, and we have had three VBAC stories where people have tried for a TOLAC and then ended in a repeat Cesarean, but we have never had somebody that has decided during their pregnancy that a Cesarean was the right way for them to go. And so I was so excited. I am like, “Oh my gosh. I need to follow up with this. I need to make sure she’s on my radar,” and then she announced her cute little birth story was on a little reel on her Instagram page. You need to go find it. It is the cutest thing ever. I knew that she had her baby and she had a C-section, and then I was like, “Oh my gosh. I want her to share her story on the podcast, but I don’t know if she will be open to it,” because I know, from what I picked up from the reels, it wasn’t an easy decision to make. I didn’t want to overstep my boundaries. She is super cool and way bigger than us on Instagram. I feel so small and tiny, but one day, I am like, “Okay. I’m just going to reach out, and I’m just going to say how much I love her, and how excited I am that she had a really good birth experience and that I would love to share her story on the podcast if she would like to.” And she said, “Yes.”Jesse: Oh my gosh. I only got good vibes from our last conversation and I literally wanted you guys to do my VBAC. That’s what I wanted.Julie: Yeah.Jesse: It was a big change for me. It was definitely a mind shift, but it wasn’t as big of a deal as I realized it was once I put it out there on social media.Julie: Well, and I’m sure you got a lot of support. I don’t know. Maybe there were some people, but I mean social media. As we are getting bigger, there are people that argue with us and disagree with us all the time. But I just love that you were confident in your decision. You just radiated that security and that confidence. I think that that’s what we all want going to birth is just being confident and feeling supported. That’s the vibe I got from you when you were talking about it and sharing your birth story and things like that.Julie: Without taking up too much more time, first of all, thank you so much. I’m so excited to have you share your story and to listen to you share about that decision that you made. Then we are going to talk a little bit afterwards about when it might be a good idea to choose a repeat C-section, and then Jesse is going to share some of her really awesome resources.Meagan: Awesome stuff. Yeah.Jesse’s storyJulie: Yes. She has lots of really cool stuff. So hang in there with us because this is a really really good story and you want to hear what she has to say at the end. All right, Jesse, you’ve got it.Jesse: Okay, thanks so much, guys, for having me. I am actually really, really honored to be on your podcast. I had such a good experience chatting with you guys. It felt so, so natural the first time we did it, so it was a very easy “yes” for me.So I guess I will start out with my first C-section which really has paved the way for everything that I am doing now. Really, everything about motherhood has shaped everything that I do now. With my first pregnancy, I was working out really hard. I have been a personal trainer since 2014 specializing in women’s fitness. I have taught in multiple states boot camp, and circuit classes, and personal training for abs, and all kinds of stuff, but it wasn’t until my own delivery really, because I had a fairly easy pregnancy in respects to working out. I was very active, and so I thought in my head, I had this very clear picture of what my birth story was going to look like. It just seemed really, really easy to picture what it was going to be. I thought if anybody could, this is a really weird thought to have, but if anybody could have a natural birth and if anybody could do it successfully-- it didn’t even cross my mind that a C-section could be in my future. Meanwhile, I am the oldest of six kids and my mom has had four kids via C-section. So pretty interesting that I never thought it was going to cross my path.I went Into my delivery, like I said, with a very clear picture of what my birth story was going to look like and it quite literally went the exact opposite. I was in labor for 26 hours. I was bleeding. I got a uterine infection. I had a fever. My placenta was failing. Heart rate was dropping for the baby. They broke my water. I got Pitocin. It was literally my worst nightmare and I was so, so exhausted by the time that my doctor-- well, I couldn’t have my midwife anymore who had been with me the entire time. By the end of the 26 hours, I had the OB come in. He was checking me for dilation and I just wasn’t dilating. They gave me Pitocin and they broke my water. I think I got to maybe an 8 or a 9 and it just wasn’t happening. And then contractions slowed down and I really was so exhausted. He came in. He was checking me for dilation and he asked me to push. I was just so out of it. I didn’t even know how to push. I feel like if it’s such a medical experience, you go in and you are hooked up to these monitors, it just doesn’t feel natural. It feels really really medical.Julie: Yeah.Jesse: Especially when doctors are coming in and nurses are coming in checking your blood pressure, and you’ve got those monitors, and beeping, and honking, and all of the stuff going on. You don’t even know what’s actually happening with your own body and then I had an epidural by that point as well, and so you know how an epidural feels. You could kind of feel the contractions coming and going but it’s not even close. So your doctor asks you to push and you have no idea what he’s talking about. Push what? Most women don’t even know what the pelvic floor is and I was one of those women. Before my pregnancy, I was lifting and pushing some heavy weight. I was deadlifting 255. I am a five-foot person. That is a lot of weight for a tiny person and I didn’t have the mindset of function.I had one picture of what fit looked like, one picture of what strength looked like, and it was not anything of what strength really is. Motherhood taught me that. He asked me to push and I didn’t know what he was talking about. He goes, “Oh. You can’t do this. You are going to need a C-section.”Julie: What?Jesse: “It’s going to be C-sections from now on.”Meagan: Whoa.Jesse: I laid there completely drugged out of my mind. I look at my husband and tears are just welling up in my face. I could cry just thinking about it. My husband is-- you know, we think that we are the strongest people we know. We love each other so much. He wanted to take that whole experience on himself and it was killing him that he couldn’t. He put on a brave face. It is hard for husbands too. They go through this with you and it is so much. He looked at me and he was like, “It’s going to be okay. We just have to do what we have to do.” In my head, I am already thinking of the future. I’m like, “What do you mean? All my next pregnancies are going to be a C-section?” I feel like it was the worst possible time to lay that on me and it’s just the standard of care. It’s just not there for moms. So the OR doctor left. He was assembling his team and the anesthesiologist had to be called in. We are in the middle of nowhere out here in the Oklahoma Panhandle so they have to call the team in. They’re not just there waiting for you if something goes wrong. So we are waiting for the team. I am laying there and all I could think was, “I have totally and completely failed before I even got to start. My body has totally failed me and I don’t even know. I am supposed to be able to do this. This is what I was made to do and he just told me I can’t now and I’m never going to be able to.”That stuck with me forever. And then, we are getting ready for the C-section. I have never had any kind of surgery ever. Never, ever, ever, and so I am terrified. I was already terrified to give birth and now I am terrified to go be cut open. And so they had me hunched over-- oh no, this was after I had my epidural. So they changed it over to where they just have to keep pumping the epidural in, so it wasn’t a spinal tap. They put me onto the new table. They strapped me down to the table, which was another thing I didn’t expect to happen either. It is all such a mental hurdle to get over. You’re like, “Wait. They don’t tell you any of this going in.”Julie: Yeah.Jesse: But that just all adds to the mental trauma of, “You have no control in this. We are strapping you down. You are numb. You can’t have your baby the way you wanted to. You are getting wheeled out of the room you just got comfortable in. Your husband has to wait out here.” It was hard. It was so hard.And so, anyways. We get rolled into the OR room. Just like your mama said previously in that story you were sharing, it was cold. It was sterile. A bunch of people that you don’t know are in there. Your husband is not in there. You get placed onto the table. You get strapped down. You get the blue sheet at your neck and it’s an emergency situation because the heart rate is dropping. I had a fever of 103 because they had checked me so many times.Meagan: Wow. Wow.Jesse: I had gotten an infection literally while I was there within 24 hours in my uterus and that’s why I was on antibiotics for probably-- I was in the hospital for five days. I was on antibiotics the whole time which, you know. Antibiotics, just the additional medicine. I’m not one to even pop an Advil for a headache, so it was just a lot.So they are doing the surgery. It was all very fast. It was a ton of pressure. A ton of pressure, relief when they took the baby out. They sewed me up pretty quick. Again, I had no idea what was happening afterwards, so they took Radley out and I could hear her screaming. In that moment, it is all totally worth it. It is all worth it because even at the end of your emergency, traumatic, C-section, you still get a baby. The baby that you have been dreaming about for nine months, the baby I’ve been dreaming about-- for me, it was since I was a teenager. Me and my husband have been together for 12 years, since high school, and we had been talking about our kids forever. So in that moment, I am like, “Oh. I could do it again. I could do it 1000 times the same exact way. I would go through everything the same because at the end of your really shitty experience if it is shitty-- which mine was-- it’s still worth it.So they brought the baby over to Shane. Shane just put her on my face because that’s the only skin I had accessible. They didn’t tell me about skin-to-skin. They didn’t drop the curtain. I didn’t get to see anything and I felt like I missed out. I felt like I got gypped in my birthing experience, which I did. I think that’s okay for moms to feel. I feel like there’s so much judgment around feeling what you feel about your birth. I feel like a lot of moms, and myself included-- I didn’t talk about my first C-section for a long time and I didn’t feel comfortable in sharing the fact that I wasn’t just grateful for my baby being alive, but I was really pissed. I was mad about my C-section. I was mad about how I was spoken to. I was mad that I felt like my body had failed me.Nobody made that feel valid for me. Nobody asked how I was really doing. Because after pregnancy, I feel like a lot of moms can attest to this, it stops being about you and it goes all to the baby. You get one check-up postpartum and then that’s it. At my six-week check-up, they didn’t even check me internally. I got the magic check at six weeks like, “You are good to go to back to whatever you were doing before you got pregnant,” and so I went back to doing those things. I realized quickly that my idea of strength and my idea of being fit was so terribly wrong.I had never felt like more of a stranger in my own body. I got home with this new baby that was beautiful and perfect and I had a brutal recovery from being in labor for so long, and the infection, and all of that, and then recovering from a C-section and major surgery. They don’t really explain that to you in the respects that you should be getting rehab postpartum to be rebuilding connections with those muscles, and movement patterns, and muscle recruitment patterns, and all of those things. And so I went into my recovery pretty blind. I realized quickly that moms don’t get much support at all through anything postpartum.And then I got really educated and I built courses for moms to rehab their own bodies postpartum, everything that they need. I realized that moms don’t need a six-pack, even though if you want one, it’s totally possible. What we need to be able to do is sneeze without peeing our pants and nobody could have told me how to do that. There wasn’t that information really out there. It was really just Kegels and if Kegels don’t work, get a surgery. Another surgery. There’s just a lot of room for improvement out there for the standard of care for moms and that’s what I get to do now. And so I love that.And then in my interim between my next pregnancy, I had a lot of focus in my mind and talking with my family, and talking to you guys that I wanted to have a VBAC, that I was confident that was just a one-off thing, and that I was going to be able to have a VBAC, and it was going to be successful, and that’s what I was going to try for, and all of those things. And then once I actually got pregnant, we did experience one loss after my first baby and we had a miscarriage. I got pregnant pretty quickly afterwards. I was discussing with my husband what we are going to do because you just don’t know what you’re going to do until you are there.So once I was pregnant and thinking about where we were going to deliver, who was going to do the surgery because the OB that did my C-section the first time didn’t live here anymore, which probably was better because this doctor that I got this time is just amazing. And then after I met him, I felt a lot more comfortable with choosing another C-section. After going over my options with him-- which I think is super important. If you want to choose a C-section just because you want to choose one, you have those reasons in your mind about why that is a better choice for you and that should be okay. Those should be valid reasons. But I did ask him some things trying to get his medical opinion on what was the best choice for me even though in my head after I was sitting in the hospital, I was like, “I really don’t want to be stuck in the same position that I was last time. I don’t want to be in labor for 26 hours to get stuck again and to have to go through another labor, the C-section, and a surgery, and then have to go home and take care of two babies.” And that, in my head, was really important to me to still be able to do everything I needed to do and not have such a tough recovery because I remember my recovery being so, so hard from basically going through two deliveries. The 26 hours of labor and feeling all of that, and then going through my emergency C-section.So when I was talking to him, he basically gave me some options. He did mention uterine rupture. I know the odds are very low, but like I said, we are in the middle of nowhere. He personally had seen some uterine ruptures happen and you just don’t know that they are happening until baby’s heart rate is dropping and for us, that risk of not having a team on staff because the hospital is so small, that risk of having to call a team just wasn’t worth it to me. I had to weigh the options and weigh the risks between a repeat Cesarean, which there are risks and the risks of trying to labor and then ending up in the same position that I was in last time.And so we ended up choosing a repeat Cesarean and I felt really comfortable with that knowing that I was going to be scheduled, knowing that my mom was going to be in town, and being able to watch my other daughter. That was really important to me. My daughter’s experience through us being gone because we have never left her with anybody before. I just had a ton of stress surrounding that. Not to say that the second C-section didn’t bring me a lot of stress too. I don’t know why I had this irrational fear, and moms are really good at this, that I was going to die. I had this irrational fear that I was going to go into surgery and not come out for my toddler.You don’t have that fear going into the first one of not getting back to somebody, so that was really hard for me. I was shaking like a leaf laying on the table going in for our scheduled C-section for River, my second daughter. It’s funny because just like the mom that you mentioned earlier in the beginning of this show, you can get really lucky with the staff that you have for your experience and I totally lucked out. My anesthesiologist felt like family. It’s funny to say because you meet them, and they come in and tell you the risks and stuff for the spinal block and all that, and they talk to you, and you are like, “Gosh, I am so scared but for some reason, you just are calming those nerves.” I think it is so important to have that type of support team. You can just tell this guy had daughters. I went into the OR room. They were in there. I’m leaning over my nurse’s shoulder and she is just holding me. They are putting in the spinal tap and they laid me down. Again, you’re in there without your husband. The lights are all on, cold, sterile, they are strapping you down, and I just had this fear that I was going to die.They are working and they get her out. I hear her screaming and again, it was the most beautiful noise and sound I had ever heard. They bring her over and in that moment, it was just peace. It was so much peace and again, it was just all worth it. They clean her up and they sewed me up. My doctor was really, really careful with my C-section scar which was really important to me too for adhesions and making sure that everything was sewed up very carefully. They took dad and baby out. I went to recovery and it was probably 30 minutes. I feel like that’s something they don’t tell moms either that you are going to be in recovery by yourself which is always a little bit sad. It was for me. I had both situations where I was in the recovery room by myself, but the feelings that I had surrounding my second C-section were not failure, were not that my body had failed. I had so much power in the choice that I had to be able to know my outcome and it did heal me from my first experience as well because I mourned that delivery. I mourned that experience that I felt like I missed out on. Even though I didn’t get to have a vaginal delivery, I didn’t get to have that experience, I still got to experience something beautiful and everybody came out okay.Birth words matterThat’s not always the most important thing to bring up to a mom too. She is proud of her baby. She is proud that her baby is happy and healthy, but it is also really, really important to let her feel everything else. I feel like that’s what this world needs more of. Instead of-- well, I didn’t realize how much judgment there was around choosing a repeat C-section until I put it out there. And I was, oh my gosh. I got shamed so hard by a doula. She told me that I was saying I was too good for labor.Julie: Oh my gosh.Jesse: That labor was beneath me.Meagan: Whoa.Jesse: I thought that this was such a dangerous position for that lady to be in as a women’s birth support person and her personal feelings around C-sections to a person that she does not know. She is a mother herself and to shame a mom-- I literally was trying to rationalize in my head during my own time of choosing a C-section that this was really the best thing for me and for my family. We don’t have family here in town that can come and take care of our house and our baby, so we needed our family to fly in. That was a really big thing for us. We needed to make sure our toddler was taken care of. That alone could have been my only reason to choose a C-section and it should be okay because I do have other kids to take care of.Regardless, I have my own mental health to take care of and my first experience was crippling. There’s nothing like looking at your body after you have this beautiful baby in your arms and thinking, “Gosh. I feel like a failure. I feel like my body failed. I feel like I can’t do the one thing a woman is supposed to be able to do. I don’t recognize the body that I am in.” I am supposed to be this strong fitness person. I put all this pressure on myself to bounce back. I didn’t know how to do that. There’s so much pressure. It is so much pressure from not only ourselves because moms do that. Women do that. But especially with social media, it can be a blessing, but it can definitely be a curse with how easy it is to access people and access very vulnerable parts of people’s lives. This whole C-section conversation that I have become so passionate about talking about really stemmed from that doula’s comment to me because I didn’t realize that women were getting so much shame from this. It wasn’t until I put my own experience out there that women were like, “You know, yes. That is me. I got shamed by my own mom. I got shamed by my best friend.” People telling me that I didn’t really birth my baby. That stings as a mom. Our words quite literally carry weight to the people that we say them to whether it’s a stranger, or a friend, or somebody on social media, or somebody in your family, sister-in-law, mother-in-law, all the things. There just has to be more support all around because at the end of the day, we are just moms trying to get home with our healthy baby.Julie: Yes.Jesse: And there’s no shame in that no matter how you do it.Meagan: Right. We are honestly-- yeah. A healthy baby and we are wanting to stay healthy, but we are also wanting a good experience for us.Jesse: Yeah.Meagan: When I was choosing to do VBAC, I also got the backlash of, “Just schedule a C-section. Why would you do that? Why would you chance it?” I mean, it goes both ways.Jesse: You just can’t win.Meagan: Literally, it doesn’t have to be about birth. Vaccines, masks, no masks for COVID--Jesse: Totally.Meagan: No matter what it is, it is this battle. I wish so badly to this day that people could just take a step back, take a deep breath and say, “Okay. I know where I stand. I support where you stand whether it is the same or not.”Jesse: Yeah, totally.Meagan: Because if we could just be validated in our own choice and not be questioned and put down for making the choice that we feel is best, this world would be so much happier and less battley and snarky, right? I chose to VBAC. You chose not to VBAC. Do I think you are any less of a person? Do I think you birthed your baby any less? Hell no. That’s the answer.Julie: Meagan just said “hell” on the podcast. It’s the first time.Jesse: I was going to say something worse, but I didn’t know if that was acceptable.Meagan: I know.Jesse: Yeah, I know. It can get a little raw in motherhood, okay guys? It’s pretty crazy. There are a million paths to motherhood and there is no right way or wrong way. It is just your way.Meagan: Exactly.Julie: I love that. There are a million paths to motherhood. Hold on. I need to make some notes for some social media posts later. Hold on.Jesse: Write it down, Julie. It’s pretty crazy. We are the largest population. There are so much more that connects us than what divides us. We let those, they are really just subtle and big differences, but we let them divide us. If moms would just come together, like you said, it would just be so much nicer because there is already so much pressure from other moms. We say that we want to support. We said we want to be validated, but it is usually moms that are so vicious to other moms and it’s mind-blowing to me.Meagan: Which breaks my heart.Jesse: Yeah. It really is heartbreaking because we have all got the same goal and that is to raise these little people with love. Everybody has a different way to either get to motherhood, because that is a journey all in itself and one to be very cognizant of, again, with the comments. When you are going to have another baby, you really don’t know the lengths that either a couple is going to be having to have a second baby or even to have their first baby.Meagan: Exactly, yeah.Jesse: Even a birth experience can really change the way if you want to have another baby or not, and recovery. If you don’t feel supported for the first one, it’s going to be really hard to feel supported in the second one unless something changes. I think that’s what we in this field are trying to do. We are trying to change that. We are trying to change and raise the standard of care for moms because we are the population that raises the next generation, that keeps the world going. If you help moms, you help the future and that’s what we are trying to do. That’s what every mom deserves.Meagan: Wow. Yeah. I’m going to roll back even to what your provider said. He was like, “Oh, you’re going to have to have a C-section because you’re not doing this and you’re always going to have to have a C-section.” My doctor said, “You were going to for sure rupture. I’m glad you didn’t do it.” Right? Those things stick with us and they impact us, and they do impact the decisions that we make and the ways that we view things. This is totally not a sponsor of ours, but Sarah Pixton has a podcast called Birth Words. It is called Birth Words: Language For a Better Birth and just like you have been talking about, these words stick with us. Even though you, as a person, may be sharing something with someone based off of how you feel or whatever, remember that that might stick with them and impact them substantially in either a positive or a negative way. And so when we as people are speaking, we need to be aware of what we are saying, how we are saying it, who we are saying it to and be respectful of everybody’s decisions, and choices, and views, and like you said, what they have been through. There are a lot of people with infertility stuff who don’t even talk about it because they don’t feel like they can.Jesse: Yeah. Everything pretty much about motherhood, I feel like, if you don’t feel like you’re going to be supported, you’re not going to share, and then that creates a situation where you are not going to reach out to the right people and get the support that you need--Meagan: Right.Jesse: -- which creates more unsupported moms, which creates more chances of not getting the experience you wanted because you didn’t have the knowledge, and the information, and the support that you needed to possibly have the situation that you wanted to happen actually happen for you. I feel like like you said with the words that he said to me, that pushed me into this prideful position of, “Okay. I am for sure having a VBAC next time.” You know? Like, “I’m going to show you I can have a VBAC.” And then once I got there, I was like, “I don’t know.”Meagan: That’s actually not what I want.Jesse: That’s not actually-- I don’t really want to try this again because of this, this, and this. Part of that was the mental space it put me in, the mental position that I put my husband in. It’s just, and now we have another baby to take care of, so that was something else to take into consideration. So yeah. Your words carry weight, so be mindful of them even if you are a stranger.Meagan: Yeah. And remember there doesn’t always have to be a “because”.Jesse: Yeah.Julie: Yes.Meagan: You don’t always have to say, “Well, because this.“Julie: And you don’t have to justify it.Meagan: “Well, because I want it because this or I don’t want to because of this.” There doesn’t have to be a “because”. Because is because. Do you know what I mean?Jesse: Right.Meagan: That is the reason and it’s okay and you’re confident in that. So yeah. I feel like a lot of people feel like they have to defend their reasons and it’s like, no. You shouldn’t have to defend your reason. If you’re making a choice that is best for you, that’s all that matters. That’s all that matters.Jesse: Yeah. If you make a mom question her decisions, question her parenthood, question her ability or reasons as a mom, that’s not support. That’s not advice. It’s just mean. It’s just mean and it’s unwanted, unsolicited, not advice, but just unsolicited speaking.Meagan: I love it.Jesse: Yeah. Moms need support.Maternal mental healthJulie: Yeah. It’s important. Well and not only that, but I want to take it off on a little tangent. We have a serious maternal mental health crisis in our country, especially for women one to two years postpartum. When we create this environment where women are scared to share their feelings because they feel judged and they see these comments flying around on social media or wherever about which way is the right way to give birth or all those different things, it makes them more afraid to show their feelings. It also makes them feel like their feelings are wrong. When you are in a mental state where you feel guilty about your thoughts and you feel like you can’t share them without being judged, then they are going to sit inside your head and your mind, and fester, and grow.It can lead to really long-term complications. I think we all know that mental health affects our physical health as well, and so we are having moms that are literally getting sick because they are not supported in their decisions. I am sure you have seen this too, Jesse. You have a big social media presence. Our social media presence is getting bigger all the time. I find the bigger that we get the more we get these people that seem like they just want to argue with whatever we say, or they take one little thing and pick it apart, right? I know I have texted Meagan a couple of times because I have anxiety over here. I’m working on it, but sometimes some things really upset me. I will text Meagan and I will be like, “What do you think about this?” Meagan calms me down and lets me know that there are 500 positive comments and one negative one.Jesse: Right.Julie: But I really still even get worked up about those types of things. It’s something that I have to actively work on and I’m still learning coping strategies and stuff for, but my anxiety did not start until after I had my VBAC baby which is really interesting because I had what I would describe as a perfect, textbook VBAC. It was a perfect birth and everything was as I wanted it to be, and I had really severe postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety. It was my worst mental health after any of my pregnancies. I had this beautiful birth, but I had all of these expectations I set myself up as a mother based on what other people thought and what I perceived to be the right way to be a mom. And because I could not fit this mold that I had set for myself and because I felt like I didn’t have a group of people I could talk to because all of my people were in this little mold, or so I thought, right? I kept it inside and it really did a lot of damage to my mental health. I know I’m not the only one that feels like that. That’s why we share stories from all different types of people in all different types of births, in all different types of decisions, from all over the world even, because we want people to know that they are not alone. It’s always okay to share your feelings. It is always okay to get help and it’s never okay to judge somebody else based on their decision. It’s never okay.Jesse: Yeah. I can totally relate to the comment stuff. I honestly can’t even go to my comments. I’ve got a really strong group of moms here and, like you said, it’s usually not even from people that are following you. They’re not even coming to your page because they like your content.Julie: Oh yeah. They see one post.Jesse: Yeah. They’re not coming because they like you. They’re coming because you’re triggering them. Because the people that I do see, I end up blocking them because I don’t want anything negative that they say to affect a mom on my page.Julie: We do that too.Jesse: Or to read the comments or see it, so I will block them. But they are not even following me and I find it so intriguing, like, “Why are you here?”Julie: Yes.Jesse: Why are you here? What are you looking to get? It’s usually because just they don’t feel supported in their choices in their life, so they are attacking you for your choices or whatever. But yeah. The comment section is a dangerous place to be especially if the post has been up for a while. So every once in a while, I will go back and then I’m like, “Why did I do that?” Because you know? It’s just toxic. But I think if I had one piece of advice for a new mom, it would be just to not read every book,  not ask everybody what they did because moms have an intuition and they just need to feed into that a little bit more. Just trust your gut. If you have got a stomachache about something, it’s your second brain trying to be like, “Your first brain is not listening to you. I am going to make you throw up over it and I’m telling you, something is wrong here. Something is not right.” If it doesn’t sit well with you, the mom, you get to be the deciding factor and if somebody is giving you advice and it doesn’t feel quite right, it’s not good advice for you.Meagan: For you. Yes, exactly.Jesse: For you, yeah. And that’s exactly it. Just because you’re getting advice from your mom, just because you’re getting advice from your best friend who also has a kid, you’re probably also going to get advice from your friend that doesn’t have a kid that’s imagining how they would be as a parent-- which that always is great-- just because you’re getting all that advice, it doesn’t mean it is the right advice for you, and your situation, and your kids, and you as a mom. So my advice is to take what you need and ditch what you don’t. If you like something that somebody is doing if you like something that your mom told you, or your friend, or your grandma, or whoever, take it. And if the other parts of it don’t align with your vision of how you see yourself being a mom, or how you plan on birthing kids or all of the things, just ditch that. It is going to feel so much better if you have that confidence to just put your foot down and be like, “No. I am the mom. This is how it’s going to be.” I feel like we need to support moms in those decisions also. Because for some reason, we feel like, “I don’t want to be rude, so I’m just going to let this happen.” But it’s either your feelings or their feelings and I don’t think the mom should have to sacrifice her feelings around her kids, around her birth experience, around everything else because, at the end of the day, it’s your experience. It’s your journey. It looks a little bit different for everybody else.Julie: And if you see some content on social media that you don’t agree with, just scroll along. It’s okay.Jesse: You do not have to comment. You don’t. I promise. I promise you don’t have to leave your opinion.Julie: Well, we hate to cut it off short. I feel like this is something we could talk about forever. But I did want to say that sometimes it is a hard thing to decide whether to try for a vaginal birth after a Cesarean or to schedule a repeat Cesarean. Neither choice is a bad choice, but we did write a blog about how to decide if an elective C-section is best for you and your baby. Jesse, you said, “Don’t read all the books,” but you can read this one blog. We are going to drop a link for that blog in our bio or you can just go to our website, to thevbaclink.com, and just search for “elective C-section” and it will be a link there. It will list medical reasons for repeat C-sections and also reasons why people might choose to have an elective Cesarean. There is no right answer for you and like Jesse said, there are a million ways to motherhood.Meagan: There’s no wrong answer.Move with TrueloveJulie: There’s no wrong answer. But before we go, we do want Jesse to share a little bit more about some of the stuff that she does and how you can find and follow her, because we know you love her by now just as much as we do.Jesse: Aw, thanks, guys.Meagan: Well, and I think that this information that you are going to share is so powerful because it really isn’t paid attention to enough. So tell us all about what you have got your toes and hands dipped into.Jesse: Okay, perfect. Yeah, so I have got my own page. It’s Move with Truelove. You guys got plugged into that at the beginning of this, but I am also very deeply connected to Nancy Anderson and if you are in the prenatal/postpartum field or realm or if you are a mom, you need to know what we are doing over here. So I am the Program Director and Head Coach for the Move Your Bump app and that is our prenatal and postnatal fitness and nutrition app. We’ve got over 400 on-demand coached follow-along workouts of every style, every fitness level. We have got multiple, multiple expert coaches that always have your bump in mind. We focus on minimizing excessive diastasis which is the ab separation, which became this really hot topic on social media, but there are about a thousand ways you can get it. We really focus on the prevention of that during pregnancy to help you have a more comfortable pregnancy, but more importantly, we are training you for labor because it is the hardest workout of your life. Whether you are a vaginal delivery mom or a C-section mom, it is going to be a fight and you want to make sure that you are training properly.We also prepare you for a faster recovery and we do that through the Move Your Bump app through workouts, through breathwork routines, through focusing on posture, troubleshooting issues that we see most commonly in prenatal mamas. We also have challenges throughout our app with private Facebook group communities, with thousands of other moms throughout the world that are connected through their sharing bump pics and checking in for progress, and then also the ability to win prizes there. So it is super fun.Meagan: And there’s something starting on the third, right? You guys are doing a challenge starting on the third. Is that right?Jesse: Yes. Yeah. We have a bump challenge.Julie: The third of what?Meagan: It’s the third of May.Jesse: Of May.Julie: Well, this episode isn’t going to air until June.Meagan: But do you do those often?Jesse: We do. We do them every single month, the first Monday of every month. We do multiple challenges. We have a Before Your Bump challenge, which is our trying-to-conceive challenge and we have got all kinds of information on stress management, fertility, hormones, nutrition to optimize your fertility, as well as fitness. We want to make sure that we are staying nice and strong and focusing on the things that are most important to not only support a pregnancy but also recover from your delivery.We also do through the Birth Recovery Center, which is our umbrella company that is going to be having multiple courses including things like sleep support, lactation consultants, mental health, all kinds of stuff that moms are going to need through their journey. So the hero product there is the AB Rehab course. That’s our 12-week postpartum recovery course. It helps you to recover and heal fully from your delivery whether you are a C-section mom or a vaginal mom, whether you delivered 10 weeks, 10 months, or 10 years ago. This program is basically for everybody with a pelvic floor, so that’s everybody.We focus on the foundational work, on the reasons why diastasis happens in the first place. Pregnancy is definitely something to recover from as well as your delivery because so much is changing in such a short amount of time. Birth is basically a lot of trauma to the body which takes a lot of rehab and a lot of specific coaching, specific protocols to make sure that we are addressing everything that happens during pregnancy and during delivery. So we will focus on postural imbalances, posture habits that happen during pregnancy, and then even pre-pregnancy, probably a lot of these muscle imbalances you have had before you were even pregnant. Pregnancy just has a really good job of showing us where our weaknesses are because we are trying to support a big bump growing out in front of us and our balance changes. Pressure changes, so imbalance, and muscle weaknesses, and compensations tend to really present themselves in the forefront during pregnancy and then stick around postpartum if we are not actively working to correct them. So through the 12-week course, we focus on posture. We focus on breathing patterns which are huge. We focus on the pelvic floor, not only function but the ability to connect with the pelvic floor and lower abs, which we really don’t have a lot of access to during pregnancy if you are not actively working to keep that connection. That’s why a lot of moms are left with a lower belly pooch or feeling like you can never really turn on your lower abs. That’s muscle dysfunction.We have thousands of moms. We probably have about 5-8000 moms join our course every single month, every single challenge. We coach all of them through video communication, through our course, through video assessments. We have a whole entire team of course specialists that help customize the 12-week course to specific needs because like we said, there are a million roads to motherhood, there are a million roads to recovery too and that can’t be done with a one-size-fits-all course, which is why we are so passionate about the ability to customize this course with troubleshooting videos if you have a hypertonic or hypotonic pelvic floor or whether you have developed prolapse. There’s a lot of things that are happening postpartum and we address a lot of them. We also have an in-house DPT on our staff who can work to coach you through some more difficult things that need a higher level of expertise. So we really are just helping to raise the standard of care for moms postpartum. Moms deserve all of the support and it really does take a village to do that, and so that is why we have got our hands in all the cookie jars with lactation, and sleep, and birth path, and mental health, and of course, our 12-week AB Rehab, as well as nutrition. We have a little bit of everything and we are working to be the top providers for that since we are already doing that with AB Rehab.Meagan: Love it.Jesse: Yeah. We are really proud of it.Meagan: Oh my gosh. So much goodness in there. So awesome. Oh, well thank you so much for sharing your story, and your wisdom, and, obviously, that awesome course, courses. So we really appreciate you. We love your face and we just can’t wait to continue our relationship.Jesse: Right back at ya. Thank you so much for having me.Julie: Absolutely. Thank you.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We can’t wait for you to hear Nicole’s incredible VBAC story! She is a successful, driven mama of two and owner of The Polished Playhouse. You will feel her resiliency over and over during this episode. Nicole shares with us her firsthand experiences with racial bias during her first birth and along her journey to VBAC. You will also be inspired by how Nicole overcame challenge after challenge giving birth at the height of the COVID-19 pandemic. We talk about the reality of racial bias in the birth world, why you shouldn’t trust the VBAC calculator and a way that anyone can advocate for change. Have the courage to set yourself up to feel safe with your birth team and get that supportive birth experience you deserve!Additional linksNicole’s Instagram: @polishedplayhouse Black Maternal Health Momnibus Act of 2020The VBAC Link on Apple PodcastsHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Julie: All right. Good morning Women of Strength. We are so excited to be here with you today as we always are. I think every guest that we have brings this different kind of excitement with them. Today we have Nicole with us who is amazing in 360°, just all-around. We were just chitchatting with her before we started the episode today and she is an incredible, incredible, incredible woman. I cannot wait to share all of those interesting details and information about her with you. But before we do that, Meagan is going to read a Review of the Week for us.Review of the WeekMeagan: Okay, so this is from holmclaugh90. It says “I listen every day. After a traumatic Cesarean with my first baby five years ago and multiple miscarriages in between, this is a breath of fresh air as I await my chance to have a VBAC this October with my second! Love every story I hear on this podcast and it makes me feel so much stronger in knowing I can do this!”That was put in last July, so that means last October she would have had her baby. So holmclaugh90, if you are still listening, shoot us a message. We would love to know how things ended up.Julie: Absolutely. Oh my gosh, thank you so much for the review. You know we always love them. They are near and dear to our hearts.Nicole’s storyJulie: We are so excited today to have Nicole with us. Nicole is really exciting. I just pulled up her bio. We have a form that we have our guests fill out before they come on our show so that we know a little bit about them. The more I read about Nicole, the more I am just like, “Oh my gosh. I need to know more about this. I need to know more about this. I need to know more about this.” The first one that caught my attention was she is a social media content creator. She has a really awesome Instagram page called Polished Playhouse. It’s all one word, @polishedplayhouse. You can see the link to that in our bio. We are going to drop it there for you, so you can give her a follow. But she-- oh my gosh. There are so many amazing things. She creates curated boxes for children ages three to five years old with books and all sorts of educational things in them for your toddlers. I am sitting here, I am like, “Okay. I need to order these boxes. I need to sign up for the subscription box when it comes out,” because there are some really amazing things. I think that what really stuck out to me the most is she is including things with diverse backgrounds and diverse cultures. So her books have black children in them as main characters. She is a black woman living in Maryland. I’m excited to talk to her because I want to talk about black birth in America and how bias influences how people of color are treated in the birth space. We can talk about numbers all day how black women are two to three times more likely to have a Cesarean and three to four times more likely to die in childbirth just due to race. Guys, this is straight across the board. It is not influenced by socioeconomic status, education levels, income, any part of the country, there is this bias against people that exist in the birth room and I’m really excited that we are going to talk about that today. One of the things that Nicole said is that having a black provider to support her in a VBAC was very important for her because of that bias that exists. And so I’m excited that we are going to be able to hear about it from somebody who has lived through it, who is living through it, and who has come out on the other side having a hopefully-- I am making some assumptions now. Hopefully, having a very supportive experience for her VBAC. And so I am just going to sit here and geek out over her on her Instagram page while she is sharing her story.But she is incredible and I just can’t wait to hear from her. And so instead of keep talking about it, I am just going to go ahead and turn the time over to her so that you can hear amazing Nicole’s VBAC story.Nicole: All right. Thank you so much for this generous and kind introduction. I was a member of y’all’s Facebook group and then also listened to the podcast all the time, so it is a huge honor to be on your show today.Julie: Aw, thanks.Nicole: As you mentioned, I am Nicole. I have two sons now. I have one who is four years old and then I have the second one who is seven months. I had my first son in 2016 and then had the second one in 2020. For my first son, I started care with a gynecologist that I had seen since college in the DC area. We had a pretty good relationship, so when I got pregnant, I just decided I would continue on with her. I had a pretty healthy pregnancy. There weren’t any issues that came up. I was doing prenatal swim classes. I did a lot of walking. I was able to manage my diet pretty well. I didn’t have any challenges. The doctor that I was going to was very cautious, so at the time, I had a number of different tests that she was running on me. She never told me why. Just a lot of different things that I wish I would have asked about that I didn’t being a first-time mom. I didn’t know what to ask. But one of the things that I did ask her-- because she was a very popular doctor in this area. So sometimes, my husband and I would go to appointments and it would be standing room only. There was usually space for all the pregnant people to sit, but if you had a partner with you, they would likely have to stand.One of the things that I asked her is, “If you’re not able to deliver my baby, then what happens?” And she just brushed it off and she was like, “Oh, well that never happens.” Looking back, there was no way physically that she could have delivered all of the babies. So that just what is something that was lingering for me. If she wasn’t able to be there, what would support look like?So the night that I went into labor, I went walking. I was bouncing on a ball and I started having contractions. I went and sat in the bathtub. I didn’t wake my husband up. Usually, if I was having Braxton Hicks contractions, I would go sit in the bathtub and they would go away. These did not go away so I started to feel like, “Well, maybe this is it.”I woke him up and he freaked out. He was like, “Oh my gosh. The contractions are too close. We have to go.” We lived about 40 minutes away from the hospital and I chose the hospital simply because it was where my doctor delivered. I didn’t know to do any research into the Cesarean rate or anything like that. So the hospital was about 40 minutes away. We got into the car. My mom was staying with us at that time as well. At this time, it is clear I am in full-on labor. We roll the windows down. My husband is barreling down the highway trying to get me to the hospital. We get there. As soon as I get into triage, I come off the elevator. I get there. My water breaks. I get back and one of the nurses asks one of the other nurses to check me. They check and she quickly starts calling for them to send me back. Then, one of the other nurses said, “Well, how far along is she?” I saw her mouth to the other one to say, “Seven.” Once I got to the hospital, my water broke immediately. I was at 7 centimeters. They took me back. My husband had left our car in the middle of the hospital driveway, so he had to go back and move the car. When he went to move the car, I saw my doctor for the first and only time throughout my entire stay at the hospital. She came in and she said, “You know, I know you’re at 7 centimeters, but that was the easy part. I really suggest you get an epidural so that you can calm down so that you won’t be in pain.”Leading up to that point, I had really wanted a natural birth, but I was obviously in a lot of pain. But she also really pushed the epidural in a way, looking back, in a way where I wish I would have pushed back. My husband was down moving the car so I’m in there by myself and I’m just like, “Okay. I want this epidural.” So I get the epidural. It took over an hour for them to get it. They poked me several times. They just couldn’t get it right. So once they finally got it in, I took a really brief nap, and then they woke me up and told me it was time to push.So I pushed, and pushed, and pushed. The nurses were somewhat supportive. Now that I have had a new experience, I really know what a really supportive team looks like, but I ended up trying to push my son out for about two hours. He never went into distress. I was exhausted, but he was fine the entire time. So as I am pushing, I am starting to feel really discouraged. I don’t feel like I’m making any progress. My sister was there and they kept telling me, “Well, we can see his hair, so I think he is close. We can see his hair. We can see his hair.” A doctor comes in that I had never, never, ever met before. I had never seen him before and he walks into the room. He put his hand down. He looks at me and he says, “You are not going to get this baby out. We need to have a C-section.”He didn’t say anything else. He didn’t introduce himself. My husband said, “Well, I need to talk to you outside.”Julie: Oh my gosh.Nicole: Yes. The only reason I can remember what he even looks like is because my sister has a picture of him.Julie: Wow.Nicole: He didn’t tell us his name. Nothing. He was like, “There is no way you will push this baby out. You need to have a C-section.” So at this point, I am just hysterically crying. My husband goes out and talks to him. He told my husband that my son was just too big. There was no way he was going to get out, if it was a risk of him being paralyzed, just all of these things. So I cried, and cried, and cried, and then agreed to the C-section. I went back. First, I had to go back alone and I just remember shaking so bad. I couldn’t tell if I was shaking because of the medicine, or if it was because I was afraid, or what. Finally, my husband came back. They let my husband come in and then I had a C-section. He was 9 pounds, so he was a big boy. He was a big boy, but we didn’t get any information aside from the fact that “He is too big. You won’t be able to push him out. You have to have a C-section.”So afterward-- when I tell the story, I talk a lot about the parts where I was separated from my husband because I think that’s where I felt the least supported because I didn’t have him there.Julie: Yeah. He was your voice.Nicole: Yes. They separated me from my husband. I went into a separate room and they were checking me, doing all of these things afterward, and they let my husband go with the doctor and the baby, and then a nurse came in. I heard her talking to the doctor that delivered my son and she said, “But she is allergic to this,” and I heard him say, “It’s fine.” The nurse said it again, “No, but she is allergic to this,” and he said, again, in this very direct tone to her, “She’s fine.” What happened was, they gave me something that I was allergic to. After I had my son, I broke out in hives all over my body.Julie: Oh my gosh.Nicole: I was literally digging into my skin. People say, “Oh, well after you have the epidural, you itch.” I’m just like, “No. I’ve never had a baby, but I can’t imagine you are supposed to itch like this.” So they just kept giving me allergy medicine after the fact, and then they put an allergy bracelet on me. This was after I had already had a C-section, after I heard the nurse tell the doctor twice that I was allergic, they put an allergy bracelet on me. And then after that, I see pictures of myself and I am so tired. It’s because I am literally just pumped full of allergy medicine because I had this horrible reaction.So after that, we had a decent stay in the hospital, didn’t really have any complications from the C-section, but one thing that always stood out to me even now is until I went to my follow-up appointment, I never saw my doctor again. I never heard from her again. Her shift ended while I was having my son and I literally never saw or heard from her again until I went to the appointment. Ahead of the appointment, she sent a review from her office, so she wanted me to review her. And so I think it was out of four stars. I was very generous and gave her three just because I felt like she abandoned me.Julie: Yeah.Nicole: The entire appointment, my first six-week check-up after my C-section, all we talked about was why I gave her three stars instead of four.Julie: No. No, really?Nicole: She never asked. Yes. Yes. She never asked how I was doing. She never asked anything about the baby. She was just so hurt and upset that I gave her three stars instead of four.Julie: Wow.Nicole: So needless to say, I didn’t go back.Julie: You should have gone back and changed the review to one star. That’s what I would have done.Nicole: I know. Yes.Julie: Oh my gosh.Nicole: So I was good because I had a really positive healing experience. I didn’t have any complications. I really was just like, “Oh, well I am one of the lucky ones. This is okay,” but not until much later did I start to think about the emotional impact of having the birth that I wanted to be changed in really such an insensitive way. So when we started thinking about having a second baby, I knew that obviously, I was not going back to her. I had started researching about VBAC, started listening to y’all’s podcast, joined the Facebook group, and really started looking for a provider. I learned a lot about black maternal health which I didn’t know before. I learned a lot about biases and a lot of it of just not being listened to, not being heard from black women mirrored my experience.Julie: Yeah, absolutely.Nicole: I really wanted to have a black provider. I found out that I was pregnant in late October 2019. We lived in DC when I had my first son. We had moved to Maryland right outside of DC and I found a practice, all midwives. There were only four. It was a small practice. Two of them were black and then two were white, but they were really, really experienced and from everything I read, it was a really pro-VBAC practice.I went there for care. I had a completely different experience just from the very beginning. With my first doctor, I always felt like I was very sick. With them, I never feel like I was sick. They were just so positive. They kept reassuring me, “You can do this. We think you can do it. We know you can do it.” Never did any type of VBAC calculator, anything like that. They were just really positive.So I was going there. I went there all the way through March, so up until I was about 20 weeks, I went there. I had such a positive experience, always left really happy. March 11th of last year, I went for my 20-week scan. This was right when COVID was just starting. It was just starting to be talks of, “This is a thing. This might change everything for us.” So I went at the 20-week. It was one of the appointments where they were just starting to limit people who could go into offices. So I went to the 20-week scan, everything was great. The next day is when we got an email from work, from my job, that we were going 100% remote. That’s when my son‘s daycare closed. It all happened in that same week.And then I was home on my very first day of remote work and I got an email from the midwives that said, “We are so sorry, but after 20 years, we just cannot continue the practice. It’s just not financially viable for us, so we will be closing.”Julie: Oh my gosh. This is so much all at once. Oh my gosh.Nicole: Yes. It was the day that the world shut down and I’m sitting here like, “Well, this is the new normal. I work from home. My son is here,” and they sent an email and they said, “This is it.” They would be doing births through May and my due date was July. I could stay on with them until May or I could switch then. I was just completely devastated because I had grown so fond of all of the midwives. I had met with all of them.I knew there was another practice in the same area, so I just thought, “People have positive births with midwives, so I’ll just switch to that one.” I continued to get care from them up until around the time that they closed, but I had been researching where I would go. So they closed. I went to my last appointment with them and at that time, I started really looking into also getting a doula. The hospital where I would be delivering had, in maybe April or May when COVID was really bad, they said, “No additional support people,” so, at that time, I couldn’t have a doula. I would only be able to have virtual support. I was bummed about that. So I’m looking into the possibility of not being able to have a doula or having a virtual doula and then also finding someone completely new to deliver my baby. I went to one appointment at the new practice. This was, again, the only appointment that I had during my entire pregnancy where my husband was not allowed to come with me. I went to this practice. I went in and immediately it was, I don’t know. The energy of the place just did not feel right to me. I went in. I was sitting. I was waiting and then the midwife came in and she said, “I need to do this calculator on you.” And I had heard about the calculator. I heard a lot about the limitations, a lot of the biases that are built into the calculator.Julie: Yes.Nicole: Again, this is someone who did not introduce herself to me. She didn’t ask me anything about my--Julie: All she wanted was a number.Nicole: She wanted the calculator. She did the calculator and the calculator said that I had a 30% chance of a successful vaginal birth. She was like, “You know, I mean, I can let you try, but just look at this. Your chances are not good. I’m telling you now.” She said it in a very matter-of-fact way. “Well, I mean, what have you been doing with yourself?” And at this-- I was so sick during my first trimester.Julie: Wait a minute. She said, “What have you been doing with yourself?”Nicole: Yes. She said that because--Julie: Oh my gosh.Nicole: Because I had a big baby before that there was a chance that I would have another big baby and she linked big baby essentially to me eating too much. So, I know.Julie: Oh my gosh.Nicole: Yes. At this point I was--Julie: And this is a midwife.Nicole: Yep. This was May, so--Julie: Was it a white midwife?Nicole: Yes. This was May.Julie: I think this is where bias is coming into play as well for sure.Nicole: Yeah. Yep. Mhmm.Julie: Sorry, I’m going to let you keep telling your story. Sorry.Nicole: That’s all right. She made a lot of assumptions. At that point, I had literally gained nine pounds because I was so sick during my first trimester. I didn’t gain a lot of weight at all. And even with my son who was 9 pounds, I gained 27 pounds for my entire pregnancy. And then for my entire pregnancy with my son, I gained 27 pounds and he ended up still being a 9-pound baby.Julie: That’s still a perfectly average weight gain.Nicole: And so she asked me, “Well, what have you been doing with yourself?” I am like, “I have been walking. I’ve been eating hardly. I haven’t gained a lot of weight.” She said, “Well, I am telling you now. You will have to get a weight scan close to your due date and at that point, we will decide whether or not we can try for the VBAC.” She said, “But based on this calculator, I don’t think you have a good chance.”I said, “Well, I have heard that the calculator is inaccurate.” She said, “Well, we have been having some conversations at the hospital about it, but we still think it is the best tool.” I said, “Okay.” I left there. I literally held myself together just to get to the car and I was so frustrated. I called my husband. I am like, “This is not it. I am not doing this with them, so we have to find someone else.” This was right in the middle of the worst of COVID, so a lot of places were not seeing people in person. They were doing a lot of telehealth visits, especially for someone as far along as me. So I don’t know what to do. With the first practice where I was, I had to go to an OB/GYN to get essentially cleared for the VBAC, and the one that I went to, I really liked her. I decided that I would transfer to them. I am like, “Okay. I will just move on from midwives and I will transfer to this OB/GYN.” She was also a black woman. I started the process of transferring to that practice. I looked online at the reviews and the reviews were either a one-star or a five-star. So then I looked further and the practice actually was about 30 doctors and you didn’t get to decide. It was whoever was on call, so that reminded me a lot of my first birth where it was just this doctor that I had never met that I didn’t have a relationship with, so I quickly got over going there. I got over that and I had no idea like, “What am I going to do?”So my husband has a really good friend that was a doula. She is taking a break right now. He called her and she told us about the hospital where I ended up delivering in DC. She said, “If you want to have a VBAC in this area, that’s where you have your very best chance.” So the midwife practice in DC, they are very, very popular. They have all of these rules you have to follow. There’s a specific diet and they have different groups that meet, so I just was convinced it was too late. I was about 32 weeks at this point. That was so late. It’s the middle of COVID. There’s no way they will let me join. They wouldn’t let me make an appointment with midwives, but they did let me make an appointment with the OBs. So I went and I saw the first OB. I was very nervous. I am 32 weeks at this point. This is my last shot. So she came in and she was asking me about the birth and she is like, “Yeah, I see that the first baby was really big.” And I just was like, “Oh my gosh. Here we go again.” She is like, “Well, that really shouldn’t hinder you.” So I just was like, “Oh my goodness. I think I found my people.”Julie: What a relief to hear.Nicole: Yes, I think I found my people.Julie: Yes.Nicole: So she was really great and that was a white provider. She was really great. She was like, “Well, I don’t think that will be a hindrance. We deliver 12, 10, 11-pound babies here all the time.” She obviously gave me the risks for the uterine scar tearing, all of those things, but just in a very informative way, but still very supportive and saying, “We think you can do this.” So because they made my initial appointment with the OB’s, I just was convinced, “Okay. This is it. I have to go to the OB‘s.” I went to another appointment. I met another one of the OB’s. She was also great and then about 35, I think it was 35 weeks, that hospital, in particular, said, “We will allow doula support again.” I was seeing a prenatal massage therapist and she had been watching the hospitals, like, updates for me really closely. She texted me in the middle of the night, “You can have doulas again at the hospital, so make sure you find one.” At this point, I needed a doula within a week’s notice. So I went on Instagram, was reading, scrolling, looking for a doula. I found one doula, a woman of color that I reached out to. I sent her an email and I am like, “I know it’s completely late. I am delivering here. I’m having a VBAC. Please, will you take me?” She said, “Well, you know, I really don’t come to that part of Maryland. I really don’t come to your area, but can I think about it? And then I’ll let you know.”We had a quick chat and later, she told me she just was making sure, feeling me out. We had a quick chat and then we signed the contract. She was my doula at about 36 weeks. I met her in person only one time and she suggested to me, she said, “I know you have had these two appointments with the OB’s and feel comfortable, but I really think you should switch to the midwives.” I am like, “I am 36 weeks. There’s no way they will let me do this.”So when I went to an appointment at about 36 weeks or 37 weeks, I asked one of the OB’s, I said, “Do you think they would let me switch to the midwives?” She said, “I don’t know. We really don’t do transfers this late, but I will ask.” So she sent an email to the midwives and she said, “We have a mom here who really wants to be seen by a midwife. She is a VBAC. She seems like a good candidate. Please, will you do this for her? She really wants it.”For some reason, they said, “Yes.” I went to an appointment at 38 weeks. I went to my last appointment with them and my very first appointment with the midwife. I was 38 weeks. I think it was a Tuesday and I met a black midwife that I had heard about. Everybody talked about how amazing she was and she was just this fierce advocate for black birthing people and she is just amazing. And so my first and only appointment with the midwives was with her and it was just so great. I am like, “Yeah, they did the calculator on me.” She’s like, “Oh no. We don’t use that calculator.” She talked so badly about it.Julie: Yeah. That’s what I like to hear.Nicole: Yes. She was like, “We don’t do that. Blah blah blah.” So I told my husband, I’m like, “Oh, I really hope we just get the luck of the draw.” It was, I think, six or eight midwives and I’m like, “This is it. This is it. I really, really want her. I think I will have a great experience with her.” So I went home. I was praying, “I want this midwife to deliver my baby.”I started having contractions the very next day after I met her and I am like, “I don’t think this is it.” So I actually went and I did some shopping. I went to FedEx and mailed some packages and my contractions started really picking up. I texted my doula and she was like, “Well if they get a little closer, let me know. But I think this might be it, so you should go home. Take a nap. Lay down.”I laid down for a little bit and the contractions just kept picking up, kept picking up and I knew like, “This is it.” So my husband called the doula. She said, “I won’t make it to your house. Just hurry and go to the hospital.” On the way to the hospital, I had to roll the windows down and get air. We were playing meditation on the Bluetooth in the car. We get to the hospital. I say all the time that literally every good person that was available in DC was there at that moment in time from the guy who just literally let us leave our car in the middle of the street and asked if I need a wheelchair if I needed anything. My doula was literally standing right there as soon as we got there. We went up and at this point, I am in full-on labor. I am trying to practice my breathing, doing everything. I get checked in. As I am getting checked in, they say, “Can you call the midwife who is on call?” And then one of the nurses said to the other one, “Which one is it?” and she said the name of the midwife that I had met literally just hours before, this black midwife that I told my husband, I am like, “That’s her. She is going to deliver the baby.” And she was on call. At this point, I am bawling because I just cannot believe that all of this has worked out in this way. So she comes back. She checks me and I was 9 centimeters. They had to give me a COVID test. They gave me the COVID test. I didn’t even get the results.Julie: Yeah, I was going to say.Nicole: They took me right back. My husband went down to move the car and I’m like, “Oh no. This is déjà vu. This is what happened last time.” But I had a doula with me and she was there and she was advocating for me. I honestly didn’t even need any advocacy anyway because they were just so great. So I’m like, “I don’t know what’s happening. I think I have to push.” I remember the nurse said, “Well, push,” just so casually. So I was sitting there and I’m like, “Okay. Maybe I will try to push or just try to breathe into it.” My doula talked me through some breathing. I was on my back. They called the midwife. They said, “You have to come in here. We think this baby is coming.” My husband got back right just in time. I am literally still fully clothed. At one point, I was on all fours and I heard the midwife say, “Okay, his heart rate is dropping.” And I said, “Oh no.” They all slapped me back into reality and they were like, “No. You turn over and you push this baby out.” So I turned over. I did three massive pushes and he came flying out with his perfectly round head, which was the first thing I noticed about him, and a head full of hair. I just could not believe it. My doula was able to get a really great video of it and I said, “Did I do it?” And they all said, “Yes, yes, yes. You did it! You did it!” It was just such an amazing experience the way everything worked out, just the support from all of the nurses. It was such a healing, liberating, amazing, amazing experience. At no point did I ever feel like I would need a second Cesarean. They didn’t even mention it. Everyone was just committed to helping me have the VBAC that I really wanted.I was able to do skin-to-skin with him right away, which I wasn’t able to do the first time. I had such a different healing experience. It was just a really, really great experience for us.Julie: That’s amazing. If everybody would feel so supported in their labor-- you went through a lot of negativity until you found your people. Like you said, “These are my people.” And to feel so supported during your labor and to know the midwife that was going to be delivering your baby, that had to be such a weight off of your shoulders. That alone probably shifted your entire feeling going into the hospital.Nicole: Yeah. It was such a great experience and the midwife, after I had been with her, she had to leave really quickly because somebody else was having a baby, but when she came back in, I just kept thanking her over and over. She was telling me, “No. You did it. You did it.” And I just kept thanking her over and over because I just felt so grateful that she was there and that she listened to me. I am just forever grateful to her.The VBAC calculatorJulie: That’s amazing. There are so many things I want to talk about. Holy cow. We just don’t have time to talk about it. First of all, the VBAC calculator is awful.Nicole: Yes.Julie: Let’s just talk for two minutes about the VBAC calculator and then I want to get into some current legislation to improve maternal health outcomes for everybody, but specifically with a specific focus on reducing the mortality rates for black people and minority populations. The VBAC calculator, we actually created a bit.ly for it. So if you go to bit.ly/vbaccalc, it will bring up the VBAC calculator. Put in all of your information and calculate it and you will get a percentage, right? First of all, if you’re preparing for a VBAC, this calculator is not evidence-based. ACOG discourages even using it and if you have a predicted success chance of less than 50%, it doesn’t really mean anything. My first client ever as a doula, my very first client was a VBAC. She was an islander and her VBAC success calculator told her she had a 4% chance. Like, a four. F-O-U-R. She pushed her baby out in 20 minutes, guys. She totally nailed it, right? And so don’t let that number discourage you, but what I want you to do is go in there, put your in your information, and calculate your number.And then, change your ethnicity. Change it from white to black and calculate it. Just change only that one thing and when you input black as your race, it drops your chances by 20%, roughly.Nicole: Yep. Exactly.Julie: It’s always right around 20% just because you are black.Nicole: I did that. Yep. I did that and I had about a 30% chance when I was black. I didn’t change anything else, my weight, my height, anything, and when I took out black, it went up to a low 50%. Yep. It went up a little bit over 20%. Exactly.Julie: And my VBAC, just for comparison, so my VBAC calculator was 62% was for my first VBAC and then when I changed it to black, it dropped it down to 48%. Now that I have a way higher BMI when I calculate it now and keep in mind I’ve had three VBACs, it takes me being white to 42.7% and when I’m black, it drops me down to the mid-20’s.The VBAC calculator is based on a sample size of 7,000 people. They just tried to use all of this data to collect to tell what kind of chances people could have because in healthcare, they love data. They love to see the numbers. They like to know what’s going on. They like to predict things. But what they didn’t consider in that calculator is the bias that comes in the birth room for black women specifically because our black parents are dying at 3 to 4 times higher rates than white women of the same socioeconomic status, education level, income level, and same parts of the country, and Hispanic people are dying at twice the rate. And so we have this big healthcare disparity, but oh my gosh. It is so hard. I am so grateful for the last year. COVID has totally sucked, but I think there have been a lot of good things that have come about, lots of stirrings, and lots of noise, and riots, and challenges, and things come up where black voices are being amplified and we are hearing them more in our healthcare system. We are hearing them more. I think that’s a really good thing, but if you are just some white doula from Utah like I am, what are we supposed to do? How can we influence the healthcare disparity in our local communities? I have an answer, something you can do if you want. I don’t know, Nicole, have you heard of the Momnibus legislation?Black Maternal Health Momnibus Act of 2020Nicole: No. I need to look into that.Julie: Yeah. So Representative Underwood is a black female representative in Congress and she introduced the Momnibus Act. It’s spelled just like it sounds. It’s M-O-M-N-I-B-U-S. It’s designed to address the overall-- we are one of the greatest nations in the world, but we have one of the highest maternal mortality rates and that’s really sad. But what is even sadder is the disparity of those mortality rates between white people and people of color, and black people are in a separate class. They are even more likely to have Cesareans and more likely to die during childbirth. And so this act addresses the overall maternal healthcare system in improving and decreasing that overall maternal mortality rate but also decreasing the bias that exists in our healthcare system. I’m just going to go over-- you can just Google “Momnibus Act”. They introduced it in 2020. They’re making some changes to it and they are introducing it again in 2021.I mean, a lot of some good changes have started to be implemented in 2020 just coming from this, but the bill has 12 key points in it. I am going to try and just go through these super quick.The first one is, “Make critical investments and social determinants of health that influence maternal health outcomes.” So housing, access to healthcare, transportation, and nutrition. “Provide funding to community-based organizations.” So community healthcare in underserved populations, community-based maternal health care, rather. They are studying the risks facing pregnant/postpartum veterans, which, I am a veteran. I served in the military for five years, and so I think that’s actually a really cool thing that they put in this bill in addition to everything else. But they want to put effort and money into diversifying the perinatal workforce because Nicole, you said it was really important to you to have a black provider to reduce the risk of bias against you. So this bill has a goal to increase the number of black providers and providers of other color that we have access to in our healthcare system because that’s another part of the problem.Nicole: Yeah. Mhmm.Julie: “Data collection processes” so we can better understand the maternal healthcare crisis. “Support moms with maternal mental health” because that’s a big thing as well. “Improve mental healthcare and support for incarcerated moms.” “Invest in digital tools to help monitor maternal health overall.” It has lots of other things. I’m not going to keep going on, but one of the things I really like is that it talks here about educating providers about these biases that exist in their space because I know that a lot of the time, we are not aware of our own inherent biases that exist around us.Nicole: Yep.Julie: And I think as white people, it’s easy to kind of brush off, “Oh, well I am not racist. I don’t treat black people any differently than I treat white people,” but then doing that dismisses the idea. Even if that’s true, it closes you off to see what other things you might be doing or what other things exist in our healthcare system that are biases against people of color. And so I think that’s a big thing for me right now is just being more aware. I have had, I know me and Meagan have both had clients-- other nations, Asian clients.My biggest one I had was a Hispanic client and man, there was such a bias against her. I can’t even tell you the amount of crap we had to deal with in the birth room and this is just here in Utah. And so we have seen and experienced it ourselves, but I think when you say, “This is not a problem because I am not a problem,” really closes you off to help fix the problem. So what I want you to do right now if you’re listening and you want to help change this big gap in maternal health care for black women and other women of color is I want you to go look up your local state representatives and senate members and send them an email, or just Google “Momnibus Utah” or “Momnibus” in your state because each state has their own ways of introducing the stuff. I know Utah, maybe not all the states do, but most of the states have their own versions of the Momnibus Act they’re integrating at the state level as well. Google your state representatives. Google your state Momnibus Act and send a letter to your representative, to your local legislator, and tell them that you support this, that this is important to you, and you want them to vote to move this forward and start implementing this across the country because that is the biggest way to get things to change from the top is letting your state representatives know that this is a big issue for you. When they hear the voice of the people that vote for them, that’s the biggest way to get them to change things. Even get a community petition started, or something to where you can bring this up to your local leaders in our country, but also focus on your state as well because there is-- gosh, I wish I had the information in front of me. There are ways to reach out and I don’t know. There’s somebody here in Utah that was in charge of introducing a Utah version of the Momnibus Act. Gosh, it is just missing from my brain right now, the information. But giving feedback to our leaders, giving feedback to our leaders is what’s really, really important and then being aware. Don’t say, “Hey, I am not a problem because I don’t treat black people differently.” You say, “Hey, this is a problem. Let me be more aware of it,” and just observe. Even observing and being more aware of the actual problems and what they look like is going to help you be more cognizant of things you can do to help change them. And then as birthing people, stand up for yourself. Change providers. Find your voice. I know it’s not as easy as I make it sound. It’s easy for me to say that, right? But getting educated about your options. Knowing like you knew, Nicole, that the VBAC calculator is crap. It is just crap. But you knew that. But somebody that doesn’t know that and doesn’t know that it is biased against black people is going to say, “Oh my gosh. I only have a 30% chance of success. Maybe I just shouldn’t do this at all,” and then they have a repeat Cesarean which increases your chance of maternal death anyways-- a very small amount, but then, I mean, it’s just a huge escalation. So being aware of the racial disparity in our healthcare system, and then observing it, and seeing what it looks like practically in your local area, and then speaking up and emailing your state representatives and your state government leaders about the Momnibus Act are things that you can do right now, today in order to help improve this change, and being aware of it, and stepping up for people. If you witness people of color, whether you are white, black, Asian, Hispanic, whatever your ethnicity or your background of your color is, speak up if you’re witnessing this. If you’re seeing this happening, speak up and say, “Wait, this is wrong.” I guess it could just be regardless of whether it’s due to race or not, but you should always speak up if you see somebody being mistreated in the birth room. But also, don’t be afraid to file complaints against the hospital or against the provider because that’s another thing that is just going to bring more awareness of what is going on in our local communities. Sorry. I feel like I’ve been talking for just a really long time. Nicole, what would you add to that?Nicole: I think everything that you said is important, but I really want black women, women of color to know it’s okay for you to advocate for yourself. It can be very tiring and very exhausting on top of what should be a very happy and positive experience but don’t be afraid to advocate for yourself and don’t be afraid to switch providers. If you go see someone and you get a feeling just in your interaction with them that you will not have a positive experience with them, don’t be afraid to switch. I switched three times in the middle of a pandemic and it was honestly the best decision that I ever made. I would also suggest if you can, get support from a doula, or a partner, or a trusted family member so you always have someone else there to give voice to what you’re saying, what your needs are, what you are experiencing, but just really advocate for yourself. Don’t be afraid. Don’t think you’re being too much, or you’re asking too many questions, or you are being too aggressive, this is your life. It’s the life of you. It’s the life of your baby. Advocate for yourself and don’t be afraid to do that.Julie: Absolutely. I think that’s so, so, so important. I love that you switched providers twice. But I’ve had clients, and I know we’ve had several people on our podcast, switch providers until they find the right fit. If somebody is treating you wrong, you have the right to leave providers and go to a different birthing location, even if it’s in the middle of your labor. I know that sounds really hard and scary, but people have done it. It’s been done. All right, Nicole. Thank you so much for being on our podcast today. I am seriously fangirling over here on your Instagram. I love your subscription boxes. Seriously, we are going to be doing something with that I think. Like, your monthly subscription. I want to get my hands on these diverse books for my kids. I really do. It’s a really important thing for me. I’m happy that we found you, and that we connected, and that you shared your story, and especially for allowing us to talk more about the healthcare disparity with black people in our country. So thank you. Thank you for spending that time with us today.Meagan: Yeah. Thank you so much.Nicole: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We are joined today by our friend, Kalie, from Illinois. You will be captivated listening to her two wildly different birth stories! Kalie’s first birth was a crash Cesarean after a brutal labor experience with a difficult recovery. Kalie’s VBAC was an unexpectedly fast and furious birth in an emergency room. While her VBAC was a whirlwind experience, she was still able to be a strong advocate for herself and her birth wishes. We also talk about precipitous labor and how to make empowered decisions instead of fear-based ones. Trust your body, listen to your intuition, and use your voice. You’ll know just what to do if your baby decides to come ASAP.Additional linksEpisode 18 Leslie’s HBAC + Special ScarsThe VBAC Link on Apple PodcastsHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Happy Wednesday, everybody. This is The VBAC Link podcast. We are excited that you are here with us. We have an awesome story. I mean, seriously though, every story is awesome, right? This is our friend Kalie. She is actually from Illinois, so we are excited to hear her amazingly fast VBAC. We are also going to talk about precipitous birth and what that looks like, and how to know what to do, and all the fun things like that. Before we get going into that, we have Julie with us who is going to read a review.Review of the WeekJulie: Yeah, absolutely. Before I read a review, I want to tell you something funny. I have a friend, Leslie. She is on Episode 18 as a special scars episode, the very first one that we did on special scars. It was funny because we were preparing for our VBACs together. Our babies were born one month apart, so she was due a month before me. It was really funny because in both of our VBACs, the one thing we did not prepare for is the one thing that happened that was really big for us. For me, I was not prepared for my water breaking before labor or to actually go into labor before 40 weeks. I had my baby on my sister-in-law‘s wedding day. I woke up to my water breaking. I was not prepared for that. I was prepared for everything else, but not that. And then my friend Leslie, her thing was she was prepared for everything and she was expecting to have a super long labor because her first birth, it was a Cesarean. It was 40-something hours. It was so long and the one thing she was not prepared for was to have a baby in two hours and that’s what happened with her. She had her baby in two hours.And so I think it is so interesting because people think, “Oh my gosh, long labors are so hard,” but let me tell you, these fast labors come with their own set of challenges. So it has been a while since we have had super quick labor on the show and it’s going to be fun to talk about that today. But as Meagan said, I am supposed to be doing my job right now and reading a review of the week. You know me. I can’t help but talk.Okay, so this review is from Apple Podcasts. It is from ejennd. It’s like initials enough, but not quite to where we can go stalk her on Facebook and see if she has had her VBAC or not. Right? Like, don’t tease me ejennd. I need answers. Okay. Her review says, “I found this podcast while I was preparing for a VBAC after two Cesareans.”Her first was an inverted T. Holy cow. I did not even read that part of the review, which is really interesting because the friend that I was just talking about, Leslie, had an inverted T. Isn’t that something? Okay. I’m sorry. Let me start over.“I found this podcast while I was preparing for a VBAC after two C-sections, first one being an inverted T. I listened to the episodes while I went for my five-kilometer walk a few times a week. The encouragement and knowledge that I gained from listening was a huge factor in giving me confidence to go forward to have a VBAC. I’m happy to share that we welcomed a baby girl via an unmedicated vaginal birth last week. It was harder than I thought but more beautiful than I could have imagined. Thank you for your continued work in empowering and educating women to make informed decisions for their own bodies that are not shame or fear-based. I am eternally grateful for the network of support that was around me. Thank you for being a part of that. Much love from Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.”Oh, Canada. I feel like we have so many people from Canada. Like Ontario, specifically.Meagan: Yeah, we do.Julie: We have a lot of VBAC doulas out in Ontario, our business manager website guy is in Ontario. My husband actually served a mission for our church to Ontario, Canada. So I wonder if that’s where we are getting the Canada vibes from.Meagan: I don’t know.Julie: I feel like we are getting pretty popular in Canada with these Canadians. Makes me happy. One thing on the review that I wanted to point out-- empowering and educating women to make informed decisions that are not fear-based. It just reminded me of what Mari Vega said. “Fear-based decisions do not belong in your birth.” Fear-based decisions do not belong in your birth. They don’t. It is educated and informed decisions. Those are the kinds that should be in your birth, and ones that are followed by your intuition, and ones that you feel comfortable with, not ones that are based on fear. And so I really like that she said that in that review. It made me happy. And, I have closure with that review because she told us already that she had her VBAC baby. So I don’t have to go try and stalk ejennd. Hey, it’s kind of like agenda. All right. I’m going to stop talking now.Kalie’s storyJulie: Go ahead, Meagan.Meagan: All right. All right. Let’s get into this amazing story. We will officially turn the time over to you, my love.Kalie: All right, cool. Well, thank you guys so much for having me. This is pretty cool. I listened to your podcast so much, so it’s cool to be on it. So I guess I will just get started. I wouldn’t have had a VBAC story if I didn’t have a C-section story, so I definitely just want to talk about that first because it is a big part of my VBAC. So for my first birth, when I got pregnant, I was so set on having an unmedicated birth. I feel like I prepared pretty well to do that, but maybe just not with picking my provider. I just went with the gynecologist that I was seeing. I was like, “Oh, she is nice. This will work.” But I did a lot of reading. I listened to a ton of podcasts. I was so excited to have an unmedicated hospital birth.So I had a good pregnancy and everything, and then when I went into labor. I was in denial that I was in labor. I stayed home all morning, all afternoon, tried to labor at home as much as I could. I think around 1:00, so this was back in December 2018 was when I had my first son. So when I actually got where I was like, “Okay. I think I actually am in labor,” my husband called our doctor or the OB, and she was like, “Yeah. You should probably go into the hospital.” So when I actually left and went to the hospital, I got checked when we got there and I was already at 6 centimeters. I was so convinced that they were going to be like, “You are not even dilated,” because that’s what I had heard in so many stories. Your first time, you get there, and then they’re like, “Oh, you have to go home. You are only at a centimeter.” So I got to the hospital, I was at 6 centimeters. I was so excited. I’m like, “Okay. This is going to happen.” We got admitted to a room and it was probably around 6:00 p.m. I just labored in the room with my husband. They had asked me in the beginning when I got there if I wanted to get an epidural. I said, “No.” They didn’t bug me about it at all. They just would check on us and everything was going really well with my laboring. I used the yoga ball a ton. I was so confident that it was going to end up how I wanted it to end up and what I had planned for. I think it was around, the timeframe of that birth is so blurry, but I think it was around 7:00 p.m. I want to say. So I got into the hospital around 4:00 p.m. and then around 7:00 is when I think I was around 8 centimeters. At one point, it was when I was at 9 centimeters actually, is when they said, “Maybe we should break your water. You don’t have to do it, but maybe it will help you progress,” or get ready to push. So I was like, “Okay, I agree to that,” and they broke my water. Up until that point, I totally had everything under control. I felt like I was doing such a good job coping with the contractions. I just felt good and then once they broke my water, I just went onto a whole other level. I was stuck in the bed at that point and I mean, it felt like it was insane, but I think it was an hour had passed and that’s when I started getting the urge to push.So I was screaming to my husband, “I need to push. I need to push.” He gets the nurses and then all of a sudden, the room is filled with people. It was just us and then all these nurses come in. They get the doctor. Whoever else was there. I mean, I couldn’t tell you. But they get everything ready for me to push, even though I was already pushing as it was because you can’t really control it once you get that feeling. It’s just happens. They brought in the doctor and I started doing the actual guided pushing and, I don’t know. It was just so hard. So much harder than I was thinking especially having the whole labor-- everything was going so well, I thought. I was like, “Man. This part is not what I was expecting.” So I keep pushing. They were doing the typical my legs back as far as they can go, telling me to hold my breath. You know, the “1, 2, 3”. I was basically half-there listening to them, but it was like the yelling-at-you type thing where they were like, “Push, push, push!” We were doing that for a couple of rounds, I guess. I am not really sure, exactly. But at one point, she was like, “Okay.” She either said, “This isn’t working” or “He’s not coming out” or something, so they suggested that we try the vacuum. My birth plan, my husband knew everything that I was like, “No” to and I did not want to have a C-section. That was my biggest thing. I did not want to have a C-section. I was so scared of it. That’s actually the main reason why I didn’t get an epidural because I thought that would cause me-- for some reason, I thought that would turn into me getting a C-section. So then when she said to try the vacuum I am like, “That’s fine” because I would rather try that than have to get a C-section. So they tried the vacuum which, in order to do the vacuum, they have to do an episiotomy. It’s hard for me to tell you how everything went down because this is mostly secondhand from my husband telling me what was happening. I don’t remember them cutting me or anything, but this whole time I do not have any pain meds or anything. So I get an episiotomy, which I don’t feel like I remember feeling, but I had a lot of pain going on already. And then, they attempted to use the vacuum and the same-- I really don’t remember the pain. It was more just like-- it was just a crazy experience.So they try that and it doesn’t work. So they were like, “Okay, let’s keep pushing.” I continue to try pushing and they were basically just saying, “He is not coming down and we need to get him out fast. We need to get him out fast. He’s not coming out.” At this point, the room is completely filled with even more people. They call in this other doctor who, I don’t know who he is, but he comes in the room and he is like, “What is her epidural level at?” My doctor was like, “She doesn’t have one. She is trying to do this unmedicated.” Because he was like, “We are going to try forceps.” They don’t usually do that when you don’t have an epidural. So I think, I don’t know what made them decide just to do it. I honestly don’t know. I know they were using shots of the Novocaine or whatever they put on just with a shot. So I think they tried that.He attempted to use forceps. That pain I do remember because it was a pain from my leg all the way up to my arm that I felt. It was a horrible, horrible feeling. That didn’t work. I think the whole time they were trying to get it around his head and it just wouldn’t get around his head, so it didn’t work and then they were like, “We are going to try one more time with the vacuum, but if it doesn’t work, we need to get him out. We need to have a C-section.” They tried again with the vacuum and it kept popping off. It didn’t work. So at that point, it was a mad rush to get me to the OR to get him out.Meagan: Was baby’s heart rate down this whole time? What was the reason why they needed to get baby out? Sorry to question, I’m just wondering.Kalie: I don’t remember them specifically saying anything about his heart rate. I just assume that’s what the case was, but he was so close. When I was pushing, they would see his head and then it would go back in, and see his head, and it would go back in. So it was like he was in the canal, but he just wouldn’t come out. Maybe, yeah. Like I said, I was half there because I was just out of it.Meagan: Oh yeah. I can imagine.Kalie: So I am sure that is part of why they needed him out so fast because when they did rush me to the OR, they threw a blanket on me and rushed me down the hallway. At one point, they literally ran into a wall and then got me into the OR. I had all my jewelry on still, so they were trying to get out my earrings, get out my jewelry, and then they put me on-- and at this whole point still, I am still having, he is still coming out. You can’t control that pushing. He was just pushing.Julie: Yeah, you are still pushing. Oh my goodness.Kalie: So I’m put on the operating table and I am like, “I don’t have an epidural. I don’t have an epidural,” because I thought they were just going to cut me open because it was just so urgent and rushed, and then they finally put a mask on me. That’s when I went to sleep and I don’t remember the rest. Yeah. It was just so frantic. So after that, my son was born at-- this was December 12th at 12:00 a.m., so at midnight. That’s when he was born. I woke up probably around, I want to say it was 4:00 a.m. or 3:00 a.m. and I was just completely confused. I had no idea where my baby was. I didn’t even, to be honest, know if he was even alive because everything was just so crazy. I woke up in a recovery room. My husband was there, but he also didn’t know anything that was going on with our son because he didn’t even get to go in the operating room because, I think it’s something when you are under general anesthesia, they don’t let other people in there. They just pushed him aside and were like, “Get out of the way. We have got to get this baby out.”So once we finally-- I woke up and had the shakes, all of the terrible aftermath of a C-section. The way I met my son was, it was probably not until 5:00 a.m. that they rolled me. I was on the bed thing and they rolled me into the NICU to meet him. The first time I meet him, he is strapped to all of these tubes and it was terrible. It was a terrible, terrible experience from the birth to meeting my son, and then he ended up having to stay in the NICU for, it was just a week. They basically were making sure he didn’t have brain damage or wanted to prevent him from having brain damage from the labor or from the birth because, like I said, how he was in the canal. I think it’s called something like HIE or HE, some condition that they were trying to make sure they prevented. So he was put on this cooling mat for 72 hours basically bringing his body temperature down so that he didn’t, to prevent swelling.Julie: Yeah, like brain swelling. HIE is correct. It’s swelling of the brain, brain damage increased that it sounds like with the cooling. It sounds like you had a crash Cesarean. Something was wrong and they had to get baby out right away. So yeah, that sounds a lot like what one of my clients had happen.Kalie: Yeah. It was so terrifying and then I mean, also just him being in the NICU and on the cooling mat. You can’t hold him. We didn’t get to hold him until, I think it was, three or four days after he was born. Luckily every day, he got better. He didn’t have any brain damage. He’s a completely perfectly healthy two-year-old, but just the worst experience ever. It sucked. So it was a hard recovery. I had an episiotomy with a third-degree tear, plus I had a C-section. So I had both fun things going on that I had to, like, I couldn’t, both. Yeah, it sucked.After that fun experience, I was like, “I probably am not going to want to have any more kids for a while.” So once I got pregnant again, which was when my son was 13 months, so at that point, I was recovered. I still had so much fear from that experience. Just fear of having-- I know I wanted to have more kids, but I was just like, “How are they going to come out?” Because I didn’t want to have a planned Cesarean for another child because still, even just the thought of a C-section freaked me out. I just didn’t want to have to do that. I figured since I had a C-section, that’s what was going to end up happening. I would just have to get a planned one for the next time, but I knew that there were VBACs. I knew that was a thing.Literally, the second that I got pregnant, or found out I was pregnant the second time, I started listening to your podcast. I just nonstop was listening to all the stories. It was one of the reasons why I was like, “Okay. I can totally do this.” I was still so scared to even try just because of that fear of that happening again. I was like, “Maybe,” because one of the things they mentioned was, “Oh, your pelvis is probably just too small to give birth, actually.” So I always had that in my head like, “Oh, I can’t do it. My body can’t do it.” It really made me doubt myself for the next time.So I was just like, “I am going to go for it, but I am just going to have to do things differently.” So when I got pregnant, it was the start of coronavirus stuff, so it was really weird in the beginning because I didn’t really have many doctor’s appointments. Everything was on the phone and then with restrictions at hospitals, they weren’t really sure they were going to be allowing doulas. I knew if I wanted to do a VBAC, I should hire a doula because that’s not something I did the first time, so I know it was something I wanted to try this time, but they were so unsure if it was even going to be possible to have that. When I got my provider, I obviously did not use the same provider as my first time because I wanted to find someone who was one, VBAC supportive, and I just wanted to go to a different hospital altogether. I wanted to try something completely different, so I found a midwife. She was out of a different hospital and she was not known for VBACs, but she was supportive. It was a VBAC-supportive hospital, so I was excited about that. I was confident in my provider. I was still doubting my body, basically. I was just scared. But around the time I was 36 weeks pregnant or so, everything was fine. My pregnancy was good. I want to say I was 36 weeks pregnant. I had a little spotting and I ended up going to labor and delivery because I had never had that before with my first son. I was like, “What does this mean?” Because they always put that fear of uterine rupture in your head. You have to be careful with anything like that just to make sure that’s not the case or that that’s what’s happening. So I went to labor and delivery around 36 weeks and had to get monitored for spotting. They checked me and I was a centimeter dilated, but I wasn’t in labor or anything. So other than that, my pregnancy was fine.Around the same time was when my midwife was saying it would be okay that I hired a doula, that I would be able to have them with me when I deliver. So I didn’t hire her until around 36 weeks. I only had, I think I met her-- my doula’s name is Georgina. She came over twice before I actually had the baby, but she was super awesome. She was excited for me to have a VBAC. She basically was, we had a plan for what would happen. I was still going to plan to stay at home as long as I could and everything.So onto my birth, because it all happened pretty quick. I was actually due October 1st and I had my son on September 28th. So it was a Sunday and in the morning, I, my husband, and my other son went to the park. My doula had told me something about curb walking which, I don’t know about if you guys have heard about that, but she was like, “Yeah. You can try that.”Meagan: I love curb walking. I have done curb walking to help my clients get into more of an active pattern.Kalie: Yeah. I am honestly convinced it’s one of the reasons why-- I don’t know. You can’t really-- you don’t know.Meagan: But you know it helped.Kalie: But I feel like it was definitely something, yeah. It did something for sure because we were at the park and I did some around the park because we were at the park. My son was at the slide and I was just walking around, walking around, and then we went home. It was a Sunday, pretty uneventful, but my doula was planning to come that day to have a meeting. She came around 12:30, noon and we talked for a little bit. She showed me some videos and then she was going to do this fear release with me, kind of like a meditation thing. She had me lay on the couch and relax and she read me this thing about letting go of your fear because she knew how I had so much trauma from my first birth and so much fear with this next one. She wanted me to be more confident that I could do it. So I basically laid on the couch and listened to her talk. It was funny because she was done, and I sit up and I am like, “Something feels a little weird,” because I had so, so, so many Braxton Hicks contractions my whole pregnancy from when I was 20 weeks pregnant on and at the end there they were just constant.So I am like, “Oh, you know,” it was just another Braxton Hicks, but it felt a little bit different. So she was like, “Oh, maybe you will call me tonight,” as a joke. Totally as a joke and she went home. So I think she left around 2:00 or so from my house and I was just hanging around. I think I don’t know. My husband and my son were outside playing. I was just doing stuff around the house and then I started getting that crampy feeling. Even with the first time around, I was in denial when I started getting contractions that they were contractions. I always was just like, “I have a stomachache.”So this same thing happened where it was around, I would say, 3:30. I started getting what I was calling stomach pains, but what were actually contractions. I told my husband, I am like, “I don’t know. I feel like-- I don’t know. I kind of feel crampy.” So I tried to time them and they were coming on super fast, only five minutes apart. And I was like, “It’s probably just a stomachache,” because then-- TMI, but then I went to the bathroom and I had to poop. I was like, “Oh, okay. Maybe I just had to poop.”Julie: That’s a sign.Kalie: Exactly. And then after I pooped, it continued, so I was like, “Okay. Maybe they are contractions.” I literally vacuumed upstairs. Anyone who knows me is like, “Wow. That is not surprising.” I was just in denial that they were contractions, but then I was like, “Okay.” These are really hurting me now. So I was like, “I’m going to take a shower and maybe that will help calm them down,” because my mom lives in Tennessee and the last birth, she had to leave in the middle of the night. It takes her nine hours to get to us and she had to leave and rush to get to our house when my first son was born. I didn’t want her to do that this time around because I felt so bad. She was like, “You have to let me know.” I am like, “Okay well, there’s only so much I can know for sure.” So I told her, “I am having cramps. I think they’re contractions.” I told her I was going to call my doula, and take a shower, and I will keep her posted. I had texted my doula and she wasn’t responding, so I took a shower. It felt good to have the hot water on my back, and then I got out and they were starting to get really intense.So I was laying in my bed. I called my mom and I was like, “Okay. She is not answering, but I really do think these are contractions.” She was like, “Okay. I am just going to wait until she responds to you,” like she would know for sure that’s what it was. I was like, “Okay well, I’m just telling you.” So I went downstairs and I got the yoga ball because I used that so much the first time and I was thinking it was going to help this time. I sat on it and I was trying to balance. I was in the living room and I remember I called my husband because they were outside. My husband was with my son outside. I called them and I was like, “You need to come in the house because these are starting to really hurt.”So he came in. He was trying to rub my back and do counterpressure and stuff and my son was trying to help too which was really cute. It started getting really intense where I was really vocal and it was freaking out my son because I wasn’t crying, but I was on the verge of that. I was like, “Okay. I am going to try to take another shower because I don’t want to freak him out.” So I went back and I tried to take another shower. While I’m in the shower, I am really, really in pain and my husband was trying to make my son dinner. Yeah, I think it was dinner at that point. He is in the kitchen and I am screaming from the shower, “You need to call my mom and tell her to leave. I think we need to go to the hospital.” And so he is like, “Okay, okay, okay.” Luckily, my aunt lives five minutes away. She was our plan to watch my son. So he had called her too and let her know to come over. So luckily, she got there really fast. But I was in the shower and I had that urge again where I was like, “I think I have to poop again, but I am not going to try.” I was too scared that something was going to happen because it was so, so intense. So I was just trying to stay in there as much as I could because the heat was helping, but it was way, way, way too hard. I couldn’t even really control myself at this point. I was just in so much pain. My husband was trying to get the bag and trying to get my son his dinner. I am screaming. I get out of the shower and I’m trying to get dressed. I can’t even get dressed. I’m trying to sit in the bed. Being on my hands and knees helped a little. I was doing that on the bed trying to get dressed. I’m like, “We need our toothbrush.” I’m like, “We need that. We need that.” I had our hospital bag packed, but not everything, so I’m just half there trying to tell him what to do and get stuff. We finally are almost ready to get going, but I am in so much pain at this point. I make my way down to the living room. Our garage door is right there to get out to the car. I am on the ball again just like, “Get my shoes. Let’s go.” My husband is like, “Okay. Let’s get in the car.” I am like, “I can’t get in the car right now. I literally cannot get in the car. If I get in the car, we are going to have a baby in the car.” That’s how I felt because I just felt that I wasn’t getting the urge to push yet but it was just, it was so close to that feeling. So because the hospital that we were going to is about a 25-minute drive from our house, I just knew I would not be able to stand the pain in the car. Plus, we had just bought a new car. I’m like, “I am not having a baby in our new car.” But I just was in so much pain. I’m like, “I can’t even get in the car. It’s just going to hurt too bad.”So he was like, “We can call 911.” I was like, “No we can’t. We can’t call 911 for this.” For some reason, I’m like, “You don’t do that to have a baby.” So he is like, “Yes. We have to call 911 because you won’t get in the car.” And I was like, “Okay. If you think that, then we can do that.” So he called 911 and at this point is when my doula finally decides to call back. So she’s calling my phone. He is on the phone with 911 and she was like, “Kalie, what’s wrong? What’s going on? What’s going on?” because I had texted her and then Kevin-- my husband’s name is Kevin. He had called her too to be like, “Hello. This is what’s happening.” She calls and I am yelling in the phone because I am in my contractions still and I am like, “I need to go to the hospital. I am about to have this baby,” and she is like, “What? What? What? What is going on? Put Kevin on the phone. Put Kevin on the phone.” I am like, “Kevin is on the phone with 911,” or whatever.So finally it felt like, I don’t know. It probably wasn’t even that long, but all of a sudden, the 911 people get there-- the paramedics and the fire department. You can hear them pulling up and they walk through our garage into our living room. All of these men. I actually sent you guys a picture. I don’t know if you got it of this. It is kind of hilarious because it is me in our garage with eight firemen and paramedics. They were like, “Okay, what’s going on? What is going on?” I am like, “I need to get to the hospital.”Julie: You’re like, “I can’t get in the car!”Meagan: Yeah.Kalie: Yeah. I was like, “You guys are doing way too much talking and not enough driving. We need to get to the hospital.” We have three hospitals nearby us and the one I was going to was not the closest one. They were asking me what was going on. They checked my vitals and everything was fine, but they were like, “Okay. We are going to get you to Palos,” which is the hospital that is right by our house. I was like, “No. We’re not going to the hospital. We are going to (this little company). This is the hospital that my midwife is out of.”And at this point, my midwife probably isn’t even working. I don’t know why I thought she would-- I don’t know. It was happening so fast. So they were telling me they can’t take me to this hospital that I need to go to and I’m like, “Okay well, I’m not going with you then because I am not going to this hospital. I am going to the other hospital.” So we did a little talking back-and-forth and then basically we were going to get back in our car and my husband was going to drive because they weren’t going to take me to the hospital I wanted to go to.And then, another guy comes in and he is like, “Oh, the chief said it is okay. We will take you to the other hospital.” So whatever. After all this, finally, we got into the thing and I’m like, “Okay. You guys need to go fast.” So I am in the ambulance and I am still having the intense contractions. I am squeezing this paramedic’s hand. He had said he just had a baby too, so he was like, “Oh. I know if I were to tell my wife this at this point, she would kill me, but if you get the urge to push, don’t push.” I am like, “Dude. Can you just let me hold your hand and scream?” Because that’s how it was at that point.So they were driving in the ambulance and they were calling into the hospital to say, “Hey, we have this person. She is coming. She’s in labor.” Oh, and my water didn’t break or anything at this point either. And then, the hospital told them that they couldn’t go there for some reason because they were going to be bypassing these other hospitals and it was apparently against the law, or against the rules, to pass.Julie: Oh my gosh. What is going on?Kalie: I know. I am like, just get me somewhere at this point because I did not want to be on a stretcher. They just weren’t moving fast enough for me. But they ended up taking me to a different hospital which is actually the hospital that I gave birth at the first time around, which is a really good hospital. I just didn’t want to go to that hospital. But as they’re taking me out of the ambulance on the stretcher and rolling me Into the ER, is when I am getting the urge to push. So I am like, “Okay. This is happening now.” The whole time I kept telling them, “I need to get to the hospital so I can get an epidural,” because I had this thing in my head that if I didn’t get an epidural that I would have a C-section, and basically that everything would happen again. So I was like, “I need to get my epidural. I need to get my epidural.” They roll me into the ER and they basically put you in the ER. I had never been to the ER and it’s a stall.There were just a million people. There were sick people on stretchers and I am like, “Oh. I don’t think I should be in this place right now, especially when the coronavirus is going on too.” You know? But obviously, I just needed to get this baby out. So they put me in a stall and there are a million people asking me questions like, “How old are you? How many weeks pregnant?” I was 38+3 weeks pregnant and I am repeating myself over and over. I am answering the same questions over and over and then I am like, “Give me my epidural. I need my epidural because I don’t want a C-section.” I didn’t say that part but I am like, “I need an epidural.” And this doctor comes and he was like, “I’m going to check you,” and he was like, “Okay. We can’t give you an epidural. You need to push this baby out right now.” I am like, “Okay, whatever.” And so they get me ready to push. They basically take my clothes off and pull my legs back, and he started doing a thing where he pulls down on your perineum before I was doing the actual pushing and it was hurting me so bad. I was like, “Stop it! What are you doing?” Because it was hurting me and I was just like, “Whatever you are doing, you need to stop.” He was like, “I need to do this.”Julie: That’s my biggest pet peeve.Kalie: Oh my god. It was more painful than actual pushing, so I kept screaming at him. I am like, “Stop doing that. Stop doing that. You are hurting me.”Meagan: That’s why we created the shirt. “Get up out of my perineum.”Julie: Yeah. We have a shirt that says, “Don’t be all up in my perineum.”Meagan: Because it’s not comfortable and it’s not needed. It’s really not.Julie: Not evidence-based.Kalie: It hurts. Actually, yeah. I talked about it to my midwife after the fact and she was like, “I know. I need to tell people to stop doing that.” But yeah. I kept yelling at this man. I was like, “You’re hurting me.” And he actually stopped doing it. He did it when I pushed, but not in between pushes because that was when it really hurt. So I start pushing and I am just in my head having flashbacks of, “Oh my god. He is not coming. He is not coming.” I was just a little freaked out, but I pushed with all my might and after I think it was two or three pushes, he came out. I just turned from pain to so happy. I was on cloud nine. I was like, “Oh my god. Oh my god. He is out.” I am like, “Give him to me. Give him to me.” I wanted him to be on my chest. Since we were in the ER, they don’t deliver babies every day so they were like, “No, we need to take him. We need to make sure he is okay.” And he was fine. He was crying. He wasn’t under any stress or anything, but they were like, “Okay, fine. You can have him.” They put him on my chest for a second and I was like, “Aww.” I was so happy, and then they took him. As the guy was going to cut the cord, I am like, “No, don’t cut it,” because I wanted to have-- everything that I wanted, I wanted still, like the delayed cord clamping. I wanted to have him on my chest. I wanted to have all that experience that I missed out on the first time too, but they didn’t listen to me. They just cut it and they took him. They checked everything and he was fine. He was healthy. So eventually, at that point this whole time, which I totally forgot to mention, my husband is driving to the hospital because they didn’t let him go on the ambulance with me, so I didn’t even know where my husband was. The nurse called him on my phone and she was like, “Yes. We have your wife. She is fine. The baby is healthy,” and he was like, “What? The baby is here already?” I think he was in the waiting room waiting to get into the ER.Julie: Oh my gosh.Kalie: I know. He missed both births of our children. I know. But honestly, I didn’t care because I was so happy I had my VBAC. I was so happy.Julie: You’re like, “I’ll catch him up later.”Kalie: Yeah. I mean, obviously, he missed out on seeing it too which sucks. So eventually, we got reunited. They took me up to a labor room or whatever and that’s where I had to push out the placenta which, I was actually really excited for some reason to see the placenta because I didn’t get to see that too before. Then, that’s when my husband was with me, so he got to see that part. And then I got the baby on me and it was just crazy because my son was born at 6:47. My labor started around 3:30, so all of that happened in that amount of time and it was insane. I just remember sitting in the room and I was just like, “How do we have a baby right now? How did this happen?” I mean, I was so happy. I also felt so good. I didn’t have a tear or anything, so I just felt good. I was on a whole other level, but it happened so quickly that it was also just like, “Is this real? I can’t believe that we have a baby.” But after everything, I was up and peeing an hour later. And yeah. Everything was good. It was awesome. My doula also missed the birth because after she called, she drove up to the hospital, but she was also stuck in the waiting room and they didn’t let her in. But she would have missed it anyway, so it was just me. But I did it, and I was super proud of myself, and I felt awesome.Meagan: As you should be. You should be very proud of yourself. That’s awesome. You have been on two really wild journeys.Kalie: Seriously. Complete opposites.Meagan: Yeah, and both very wild.Kalie: Very wild.Meagan: You know, just wow. So crazy.Kalie: Yeah.Precipitous LaborMeagan: It’s interesting. As a birth worker, sometimes people will be like, “Oh, this is what I am feeling. This is what I’m thinking.” And sometimes with birth workers, we are like, “Maybe.” You know? But this is something that I have learned. Julie, I am sure you would agree. Don’t ever discredit a mama saying, “This is labor.” Do you know what I mean? Because sometimes it is so hard, and you go so fast, and you can’t get in the car. Do you know what I mean? It’s just so hard.Kalie: It’s so funny because I remember hearing similar stories. I think there was one recently where a woman gave birth in a parking lot and I was like, “That would be awesome to have an experience like that,” and I never honestly ever thought I would ever have. I didn’t even think I was going to be able to have a vaginal birth, let alone something like that, so it was crazy. That’s for sure.Julie: Yeah. Well, and then another thing too is on the flipside, Meagan, having clients be like, “Well, I really don’t think this is it,” because that’s totally me with my first VBAC.Meagan: Oh, I know.Julie: I was like, “Wow. That was a really weird Braxton Hicks from an irregular pattern to ten minutes apart, but I’m not having a baby.” Granted, mine was not that fast, but my midwife and doula were teasing me. They were like, “Just rest and put your feet up,” because I was 38.5 weeks. Nobody was expecting me to have baby that early, right? And so sometimes as doulas, it is not our job to give medical advice, but we just stand at the ready. We are like, “Okay.” And so if you would’ve told me or texted me-- I tell my clients, I am like, “If you ever just have really loose stools or are pooping all day, I want to know about that. Tell me because that is a sign that your relaxin hormones are really amping up for labor and it’s a sign that it’s pretty close.” And so as soon as you told me that, I’m like, “Yep. Baby’s coming.” That was interesting.Meagan: But yeah. That’s so true. It’s like, “Oh, I don’t think this is labor,” but they are 9 centimeters. It’s just crazy. Oh, what a fun journey for you. That’s crazy, but fun. We are very proud of you and you should be shouting to the rooftops, “I did it and I feel good about this.”Kalie: Yeah, it definitely felt really good. I just don’t know if we were to have another kid how fast it would come, so I don’t even know, I kind of just want to end on a good note. It works out.Julie: Or have a home birth with a home birth midwife.Kalie: I almost did I feel like, but at least I didn’t have an ambulance birth because that would have been--Julie: Oh my goodness.Meagan: Yeah that would have been-- yeah.Julie: Nope, you’re fine.Meagan: I was just talking about precipitous labor. I know we talk too about it a lot, “Follow your intuition,” but truly follow your intuition. If something is telling you, “This is it. This is time,” Speak loud and share it. If you’re not at the place you are needing and planning to birth, definitely tell people. It’s really hard like she said, you don’t feel like you can move. You don’t. I had one client that had precipitous labor. Things were going slow at first. Like, “I think this is maybe contractions,” and then it was like, boom. Bang. Like, wow.Julie: Boom. Bang.Meagan: Baby out really fast, right?Julie: I remember that birth.Meagan: We almost had to literally, her husband and I, pick her up and literally put her shoulders, or her arms, over our shoulders and picked her up and walked out. I jumped in the backseat of their car and we were rushing and I’m calling labor and delivery. Meet us on the corner. We are going to have a baby. Like, I mean, it it just was crazy. It can happen. Our bodies are incredible. So, yeah. It’s hard. It’s hard to know what’s going to happen.Kalie: For sure.Julie: Expect the unexpected. What was it? I think Sarah made a post the other day. “The only predictable thing about birth is that it’s unpredictable.”Meagan: Yeah, so true.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Kay’s story is a must-listen for everyone! Hopeful VBAC moms, CBAC moms, first-time moms,  and birth workers will be inspired by Kay’s wisdom, beauty, and strength. Kay was Julie’s first cross-country virtual doula client. She shares her journey of thoroughly preparing for a VBAC (complete with a color-coded binder!), having 100% confidence in her intuition, and ultimately having a euphoric CBAC. Yes, euphoric! Julie also shares a special lesson learned from Kay that she will never forget.“My biggest piece of advice to anyone would be to have that plan C. Have A, B, and C and be so at peace with all of them. Love every part of them because that made all the difference in the world.“I think it’s just as important to listen to all of those beautiful VBAC stories as it is to listen to beautiful CBAC stories because it does not have to be the trauma that most of us have experienced in our first C-section. It can be different.” Additional linksThe VBAC Link on Apple PodcastsHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsThe VBAC Link Community on FacebookFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Happy Wednesday, everyone. This is Meagan and Julie. You are listening to The VBAC Link. I am currently driving in the car and Julie is her usual, very organized self sitting in front of the computer. We are excited to record today’s episode. This is Kay. She is actually a virtual client of Julie’s, so I’m excited to hear this story from her because I heard the story from Julie. So yeah. We are excited to get into this story. Review of the WeekAnd of course, we have a review of the week. Since I am driving, we are going to turn the time over to Julie, since I cannot read and drive, and then we will jump back into her story.Julie: Yes. We are quite a dynamic duo. We record in the dentist’s parking lot, on the road, in our home.Meagan: That’s true, yeah.Julie: I remember the early days. Oh my gosh, the episode with Dr. Cormano (Episode 15).Meagan: Oh man. I was in the car going to a prenatal.Julie: I was in my garage in the car and it was 80° outside. I was sweating, but I didn’t dare turn the car on because of the AC noise. Oh my goodness.Meagan: Mhmm.Julie: That was so crazy. Oh my gosh. We have come a long way, and then we have regressed a little bit because of COVID. But one day, we are going to be in a studio again and our kids’ schedules won’t be as crazy, or they will be crazier. When they are all in school during the day, that will just be nice because we won’t have to worry about all the preschool shuffling around and all of the things. But for now, this is what you get. We are real-life moms just like you. So, so excited to share Kay’s story today, but before we do, like Meagan said, I have a review. This review is from Apple Podcasts and the reviewer‘s name is Matthias.Band. The review title is, “So much love for this podcast.” She says, “I am a mom who has had two VBACs following the Cesarean birth of my firstborn. If I could give a gift to my post-Cesarean self while preparing for my VBACs, it would have been this podcast. I did not discover this podcast until after my last birth, but I have fallen in love with the hosts and the women who come here to share their stories. “Listening to Julie and Meagan feels so often like sitting down with friends due to their candor and obvious passion they bring to this facet of childbirth and early motherhood. I love this community they have created that genuinely understands the emotional impact of birth and the many reasons, both physical and psychological, why women pursue VBAC. Julie and Meagan are so knowledgeable, kindhearted, and obviously hardworking.“Keep up the good work. You are making an impact.”That is so sweet. I love that. Doesn’t that just make you feel so good, Meagan?Meagan: I know.Julie: Not going to lie, sometimes business is a little hard and sometimes things get a little bit rough. We love getting reviews like this because it really, really does keep us going. It lifts our spirits when times are more difficult than others and really these kind words just-- I just can’t even tell you how many times they have lifted me up when I have just been really struggling with life generally, but specifically some business stuff. So thank you. Thank you, Matthias.Band on Apple Podcasts. We appreciate your review so much.Kay’s storyMeagan: Okay, you guys. So, so excited to get into this story. Kay, if you’re okay with it, we would love to turn the time over to you.Julie: Wait, can I talk first for a minute?Kay: Sure. Please.Meagan: It would be out of character for you not to say something.Julie: Yes. So I’ve just got to-- you know how I am. I am going to try to not take up too much time because I want to give Kay plenty of time to tell her story. But Kay was my first virtual client that did not live in Utah. We all know that during COVID-19 and all of the hospital restrictions, and the lockdowns, and the difficult policies, and restrictions that were being placed under the families, most parts of the country don’t allow doulas in. There was a time when all of this started that they weren’t even allowing birth partners and husbands to be able to be there for these women’s birth. It has been a journey. We are out of the part where they don’t allow husbands or birth partners into the hospital, but in some areas, most areas are still restricting doulas. We are really lucky here in Utah that most hospitals are allowing one support person plus a doula right now, but in a lot of other parts of the country, it’s not like that. So something that has become more emergent in the birth world, in the doula world, is virtual doula support. What most people think of when they hear “virtual doula support” is, “I don’t want to be on Zoom or FaceTime with my doula the whole time. That just sounds weird. She is staring at us in the room and being like, ‘good job’ on the phone.” Let me tell you, virtual support looks so different than what you would think or would imagine. I have supported a couple of clients locally, virtual support just by force, because of a hospital switching policies the day before they had their baby and things like that. I’m sure, Meagan, you have dealt with the same thing, but it was really neat to have Kay reach out to me from across the country wanting doula support initially because the hospital that she was birthing at wasn’t allowing doulas and she was like, “Heck, if I’m going to have a virtual doula, I might as well have The VBAC Link as my virtual doula.”Kay: Right.Julie: So luckily, I had an opening. Let me tell you, it was such a beautiful experience. I am so glad that we connected. The hardest part about virtual support is just not being there when the baby is born. I was literally in tears when Kay was having her baby because I wasn’t there with them. But it’s pretty amazing. And so I am sure Kay is going to share part of that in her story with you as far as how she prepared and things, but without further ado, I am going to turn it over to my wonderful, digital client who I feel just as close to as if it was an in-person client, Kay.Kay: Thank you. Yes, it was quite a journey. This is my fourth child. So to go through, the first one was a vaginal birth. It took me 38 hours to birth that child and recovery was fine. I had my second birth and with this one, I opted to get an epidural right away. I dilated to 10 cm and everything was going great. I pushed for five and a half hours only to have a C-section after that. It turns out my little guy was wedged diagonally into my hip pocket. When the doctor pulled him out, she goes, “He’s sunbathing” because he had his hands behind his head and his legs crossed like he was just lounging at the pool. And then, my third baby was actually adopted in March. We had been trying for about two and a half years and thought adoption was our way to go for the rest of the children that we were going to have in our family. God had other plans. So we adopted my daughter in March and found out, I think it was in April or May, that I was pregnant.It was quite a surprise for both of us. So while I was having my newborn, I started researching VBAC. I came across The VBAC Link and when everything went virtual, I thought, “Hey, what the heck? I’m going to reach out to them and see if there is any chance that you would take a virtual client.” Lo and behold, Julie got back to me and we started our journey together. So once I started to learn everything, I did HypnoBirthing, I did Julie and Meagan’s class on The VBAC Link which was absolutely amazing. I did Spinning Babies®. I was doing my exercises. I had practiced how my birthing room was going to look. I had gotten tea lights and my essential oils. It was really important to me because I was planning to birth at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore and I knew that they were a very big hospital and I wasn’t sure what type of doctor I was going to get. So I stayed with my provider the whole time because you can see so many different providers at that location. I had just expressed my wants and my needs to have the birth that I desired and everyone was very supportive. But I was still a little iffy on the whole situation. I knew that if I was going to have the birth that I desired, I had to keep training and keep learning. So I am a bit OCD in that I had a color-coded binder with all of the different exercises and all of my notes that I had learned from Julie, and from HypnoBirthing and Spinning Babies®.Julie: I loved that binder. It made me so happy. You are just like me. I feel like we are soul sisters or whatever you want to call it because you are exactly like me.Kay: Yeah. It was great. But that’s why I wanted us to have you there so much because I knew as much as I planned and trained, when it came down to labor, sometimes you forget everything all at once. That’s why it was so nice to have you there. When the labor actually hit, that was another story. I hit my due date and nothing. I hit week 41 and nothing and girls, I was doing everything. Julie knows. I was doing my Miles Circuit. I was walking. I was doing curb walking and this child just said, “Nope. I just want to stay in you for as long as I possibly can.”At week 41 and, I think it was, five days, they did schedule an induction. I was so nervous. I almost left the hospital twice. I just didn’t feel like my body was ready and I think because of all the nerves, I just felt the baby pulling upwards instead of being in that nice, down position he had felt like he was in for the previous week. So after many conversations with Julie and then speaking with the doctors, I thought, “Okay.” We started the process. After talking to Julie, I came up with the idea of, “Hey, can you try to do a membrane sweep first and give me a few hours?” So that was nice. They did the membrane sweep. They did give me a few hours. Nothing really happened. With my previous birth, my water broke after my membrane sweep and things started to progress a little bit, but with this one, it didn’t happen.So the next step was the Foley bulb. That went well. I dilated to 4 centimeters fairly quickly, and then I pounced on the ball like crazy and I just wasn’t progressing any further, so they said, “Hey, we want to do a slow Pitocin.” So again, during all this time, I had Julie on text with my husband and I was texting with her. I think we did some phone calls too and I kept saying, “What is the best way to do Pitocin?” I couldn’t remember even though I had this beautiful binder in front of me about what the best way to do it was and Julie said, “Hey, this is what I recommend if you can do it,” and luckily, the hospital was very accommodating to that. So I think I did two units every hour I think it was.At that point, things were going well. The contractions were getting intense. It had gotten up to a level 8 of the Pitocin and I was going through a pretty intense contraction. Once it clicked up to level 10 of the Pitocin, I was in a lot of pain. I was having a hard time breathing. My husband was texting Julie and she was saying, “Hey, try this position. Try this position.” I labored on the toilet and I labored in the shower. I labored on all fours. I did everything that I could and it was just getting so intense to the point where I was having a hard time breathing in. I could breathe out beautifully, but I couldn’t breathe in and that’s the point when I said, I needed to get an epidural because it was taking so much out of me that I was a little nervous I was going to pass out or just not have the energy to push when the time came.So that point, I did get the epidural which was a godsend. I don’t know if you guys had felt like this if you had an epidural, but once I had it, I felt a little bit out of it. I had oxygen on my face and I felt like I was watching everything from above as I was trying the different positions to get baby to descend. All of a sudden, they asked if they could check me. As soon as I turned onto my back, the baby’s heart rate dropped and it wasn’t anything super scary. It was kind of a quick drop, and then they were able to stabilize baby and it was okay. They checked me and I was at 7 centimeters, so I thought, “Oh gosh, this is good. This is going really, really well.” But the baby was really high in my belly and after sitting in bizarre positions with the epidural, I didn’t feel like I could get him low. So thankfully again, if you have the choice to get a virtual doula or no doula, get the virtual doula because again, I was texting Julie saying, “Okay. What should I try now? How should I do this?”Thankfully, I also had a nurse that was trained in Spinning Babies®, so she suggested some positions. We were going to try the side-lying release. So we got me on my side and we started to do it. I probably was there for about a minute and baby’s heart rate dropped again. This time, it was pretty scary. His heart rate went down for what I thought was two minutes and later found out it was five minutes. My husband‘s face was absolutely white as a ghost as they kept saying, “We are not getting his heart rate back up. We are not getting his heart rate up.” There was definite panic in the room. Finally, I switched sides again and his heart rate did come up and they were like, “Just don’t move.” So I stayed in exactly the same position until baby was “happy again” and thankfully, he was.But it was every time I even tried to roll a tiny bit into a different position, the heart rate would drop again. I was definitely getting a little scared. So my husband looked at me and said, “I am getting a really bad feeling about this.” My heart dropped a little bit because I had wanted so bad to have a VBAC, but we are very religious people and I kept thinking, “If he’s getting this thought, there’s something to it.” So we stopped and we prayed the Rosary and we just really thought about what should be the best decision. In the middle, as we were praying the rosary, my husband kept saying, “I feel like somebody is holding the baby’s hand and not letting him descend.” I knew as soon as he said that, there was a gut instinct that said, “This is probably not our best solution to go ahead and try to push once I get to 10 centimeters, that it might be better to have a C-section.” I was nervous about this because I know the recovery of having a C-section and I have a 10-month-old baby at home. I didn’t want to not be able to pick her up or hold her, but at the same time, I wanted to get through this labor with a healthy baby and a healthy mama. He just kept saying, if we get into the pushing stage and he gets stuck, we are going to be in an emergency and I had that feeling too. I didn’t want to voice it because I had trained so hard. I did everything I needed to do and I mean, I ate, I think, six pineapples that week trying to get myself in labor. I ate it every single day. I did the exercises religiously, but you know when you get that gut feeling. and the one thing that I love about The VBAC Link course is that they tell you if you get that feeling, you need to trust your instincts. That’s one of the hardest things to do when you want a VBAC so bad.So I was scared. The doctor came in and I told her. I said, “Listen. I am not actually scared of the surgery. I’m scared of the recovery. I am afraid that something catastrophic could happen afterward like a blood clot or something crazy like that.” And because I had that VBAC Link training, I was able to say to the doctor, “Listen. You might think this is silly, but this is what’s bothering me and this is why I’m scared.” I literally said to her, “I am scared I’m going to get up and have a blood clot. I am scared you are going to try to get me to walk and I could have an aneurysm or something like that.” She was shocked that I asked those questions and said, “How did you even hear about that stuff?” I said, “Well, I do a lot of research and I have had a C-section before and you hear stories-- horror stories with vaginal birth, and horror stories with a C-section, but I need to know that you are going to look out for these things and be on my side and take care of me after the surgery.” She was really kind. She went through all of the risks, which were so minuscule. When she said the statistics of having something like a blood clot, or an aneurysm, or something like that afterward, it eased my mind big time.I think also having The VBAC Link training because you go over the risk of uterine rupture and then once you hear that the statistics are lower, your mind rests a little bit and it eases your mind. So once I heard the statistics for things that I was probably a little irrationally afraid of, it eased my mind and I don’t think I would have been able to do that if I didn’t have that training. Once I did get that training, it gave me the confidence to speak with the doctor about that stuff. So we went on and I went to my plan C. I told the doctor, “Listen.” I was not expecting to have a C-section, but because I made a plan A, a Plan B and I didn’t want to make a plan C but decided to make a plan C after I took your class, I knew if I had to have a C-section, these were the things that I wanted. The things that I wanted were, I wanted to have a clear curtain so that I could see my son. I wanted to have the cord pulse out for as long as humanly possible in a safe manner and I wanted to listen to music. I didn’t want to be in an environment that I was scared of. I also didn’t want my hands to be tied down. I don’t know if that happened with either of you guys, but in my first C-section, they had Velcro that strapped your arms down and that was traumatic.Julie: Yeah, me too.Kay: It was just a horrible feeling. I felt like I had no control over what was happening and I did not want to experience that again. I have done a lot of work to heal from that, and then I just was adamant about it. They were like, “Yeah. Absolutely.” They were very accommodating. So when we went into the surgery room, the atmosphere of the nurses, and the anesthesiologist, and my surgeon was so light. I mean, my surgeon was literally dancing as she dressed in her gown and stuff like that. Everyone was coming to talk to me and they had my Jesus music on. God bless their souls because I played-- have you guys heard the song Stand in your Love? It says over and over, “My fear doesn’t stand a chance when I’m standing in your love” and I played that song on repeat the entire surgery because it was the only thing that kept my mind grounded. My husband talked to me the entire time. The anesthesiologist talked to me the entire time. They were all joking and I was just so relaxed. My hands weren’t tied down. I had little straps I could hold onto it if I chose to. I had my Rosary in my hands and everything was just really light. And then they kept pressing down on my belly to try to get the baby out. They were pressing on my rib cage, actually. I kept saying, “You’re going to break my ribs.” It didn’t hurt that bad, but I could feel the pressure and that baby was so high up in my belly that it took a while to get him out, but once they did, they dropped the curtain. My son locked eyes with me the entire time while his cord pulsed out. They just held him there. That woman’s arms must have been so strong because my baby was 8 pounds and 11 ounces and she held him there the entire time. I think we were there for three or four minutes while the cord pulsed. And then as soon as I was done, they let my husband cut the cord and they brought the baby right to me. They didn’t do anything else. He came right and was right on my chest and sat there for a long time. They actually did finish the rest of the surgery and close me up and he was on my chest the entire time. In fact, my husband didn’t even get to hold him. And then when they were done, they did everything they needed to do. They measured him. They weighed him. My husband got to hold him as they were wheeling me back and it was beautiful. It was the most amazing experience. I was on cloud nine. I had just a calm sense that the peace that was in the operating room and the bubble that me and my husband were in is something I have never experienced before. It was just, it was a miracle. It was quite frankly probably one of the most beautiful births and situations I have ever been in. I attest it all to being prepared beforehand because I am definitely a people pleaser and I would have never went and said, “Hey. This is what I want.” You know? When they gave me, “No, I’m not sure about the clear curtain,” I said, “That is very important to me. Please, can you try to make that happen?” And they did. It was amazing. It was absolutely amazing. So I am so thrilled and so grateful for everything that you guys have bestowed upon me in terms of training and all that good stuff and for Julie being there virtually the entire time.Plan A, plan B, plan CJulie: Yeah. I love that. Before I get into a valuable lesson that you actually taught me during your birth, I want to have you talk more about having backup plans. Plan A, plan B, plan C. Do you want to talk more about that?Kay: Sure, sure. So plan A, for me, was going into spontaneous labor, not using any medications, and having my beautiful vaginal birth that I envisioned. I had a couple of other different ones in there, but that was the gist of my plan A. Plan B was if I have to get induced, to not use the epidural, and to stay as long as possible without the epidural. I had been in a 38-hour labor before with no epidural until hour 28, so I am very well aware of how painful contractions can be with Pitocin, but I was determined to just-- my goal was, okay. Plan B, if they have to induce me and do Pitocin, do two units every hour, and then have them turn it off so that my body could take over. That was my plan B. I also wanted to be able to birth the baby and catch him in my arms and bring him right to my chest. I just love that image. So that was part of my plan A and plan B. I did not want to plan plan C. I was just like, “I am not doing it. I don’t want to.” It wasn’t until I took your course that I said, “Okay. I probably should do this. It is the responsible thing to do. So I thought about it for a long time, “Okay. If I have to do a C-section, what would make me feel a lot more comfortable?” One of the things was listening to the different podcasts on The VBAC Link of people who had Cesareans that they thought were beautiful and that they enjoyed the process, and then doing my own research of just hearing people’s stories, so I came up with little things. Things like music made the hugest, biggest difference in the entire world. It just kept my mind calm and having the sheet-- I didn’t even know that there was a sheet before starting to research the stuff about having a clear sheet so you can see everything after they are doing the surgery. They don’t let you see it during surgery. But I would say my biggest piece of advice to anyone would be to have that plan C. Have A, B, and C and be so at peace with all of them. Love every part of them because that made all the difference in the world.Julie: Yeah. I really liked that about you. Most people, I mean we have talked about it before in the podcast, but most people are like, “Oh, good vibes only. Positive stories only. I don’t want to even think about a C-section because I don’t want to manifest something wonky out to the universe.” Something that I really like is your eagerness to learn and get educated, but also your faith.So Kay and I are from different secular backgrounds, but we both believe in God. No matter what you believe in, whether you believe in divine power or you don’t believe in anything at all, we all have our intuition that can guide us and trust us. It was really admirable when I was working with you, Kay. Through the whole way, all the way, through our prenatals, through your birth, even post-birth when we had our little visit, you always trusted in God, and you trusted in yourself, and you trusted that you knew what would be the right thing to do if plans ever had to change. And plans did change. That’s why having a plan A, B, or C-- I always call them, A is your perfect plan if everything goes perfectly, and then B is the backup plan, and then C is your Cesarean plan. I’d like to encourage all of my clients to have that, but not everybody wants to talk about it. That’s one thing we do go over in detail in our course, like you said, about the importance of having one of those. You can make it and know it’s available to you, and then just fold it up, tuck it in your pocket and never even think about it again. But if you need it, guess what? You pull it out and it’s there. You are prepared and you can enter into your birth in a really more confident way. I really like how you said that you were talking with your providers about your concerns. You were asking questions. They were talking with you. This is the thing, I think, that is hard for us to remember as people when we are working with providers and when we are working with people who do birth all the time is that they have a system. We all know that. You go into the system. You check-in. You labor. If you need an epidural, you need an epidural. If you need a Cesarean, you get a Cesarean, right?All of what they do is very routine and they are used to all of it, so they go through the steps and they go through the motions, but I think what we don’t give providers credit for is their willingness to deviate from the standard of normal. Not all of them. Keep in mind, I’m not talking about all of them. But I think most providers have that heart and mindset that if you just talk to them and ask questions about your concerns or about your options or be really insistent. Like for you, it was the clear drape. They were like, “We don’t normally do that,” and you were like, “No. I need that.” And they were like, “Okay well, let’s figure out how to make it work.” I think most providers if given the chance and if asked questions would respond in a similar way. And so I think that’s really great that you were able to stand up for yourself and the things that you knew based on what we had talked about and what you learned in our VBAC prep course for parents is that it gave you the confidence to ask that when you had to pull out your plan C.Kay: Yeah and you know what? I totally forgot to mention this. But before I got pregnant with my son, I went through two and a half years of fertility issues. Unexplained infertility and just went through the gamut of issues. I knew that I couldn’t handle it mentally with IVF and all that sort of stuff, so I stayed on more of a holistic path of trying to get pregnant and just do that type of thing. They were always pushing me to get surgery and said, “You know, something is probably going on. You should probably get surgery to look at your ovaries, look at your uterus, look at your tubes to see if anything is going on.” So you know what? When I was on the operating table, I said, “You know, I saw (the doctor’s name),” and I said, “Hey, can you do me a favor? I went through two and a half years of fertility issues and they were always pushing me to get surgery to see if everything was healthy on my female parts. Can you take a look for me while you’re in there?” It was as if she was in the grocery store and I was like, “Hey, can you grab some milk for me?” She was like, “Yeah, sure. No problem. Let me get through this part and then I will check them for you.” And she did. She went through and she goes, “There are two beautiful ovaries. Your tubes look great.” I said, “What about my intestines? They always mentioned something about my intestines like maybe there was scar tissue?” And then she was like, “Okay, give me a couple of seconds.” And then a minute later she goes, “Oh, your bowels look beautiful.”Meagan: What a weird compliment to have, huh?Kay: Right?Meagan: “Oh, your bowels-- they look beautiful.” You’re like, “Thank you. I am glad that my bowels are in good shape.”Kay: It’s so true because--Meagan: But it’s a really good thing.Kay: Yeah, and after having people question that something is wrong for so long, it starts to get in your head and you think, “Oh my gosh, is there something wrong? Should I have gone through with the surgery?” But I would have never in a million years asked that question if I have not gained the confidence through the parent prep course. There is no way I would’ve ever done that. But now, they closed me up and I go, “Hey, I know my insides are all healthy too.” It’s like a bonus.Julie: Well and I just imagine you sitting there on the operating table. You are literally open and having these conversations with a provider. Oh my gosh, to be a fly on the wall. I mean, hopefully, there are no flies in the operating room. You know what I mean. But just how actively involved in your birth you were throughout the whole process. There are so many more details that I know that I feel like we can talk about your birth for two hours, but I want to share a lesson that I learned from your birth.Julie’s lesson So during this process, I was just at home and as Kay said, sending text messages, and taking phone calls from them, and helping them through labor with different position ideas, and different things to do and try, and how to help them through the induction process, and all those things. And so I’m just hanging out, waiting, and checking in if I haven’t heard after so long. And then the last I had heard, her husband had sent me a text message asking about a different position because baby wasn’t engaging. I am super cool about that. I know all these positions. I sent them a couple of ideas and I am like, “Okay. If this doesn’t work, then call me. I know a be-all-end-all to baby engagement that I’ve only seen not work one time in my entire doula career.”And so I was just waiting, expecting them to say, “Oh yeah! Baby is engaged,” or “Okay, we need to try the one more thing.” But I get a text message from her husband saying, “Baby’s heart rate is not doing so great. We are going into a Cesarean. We are at peace with it.” It completely caught me off guard. I was like, “Oh my gosh. What is going on? I started crying to my husband.” I am like, “Oh my gosh. These poor clients. Their birth ended in a Cesarean” because I just made all these assumptions that you were not okay with it because most of the time when people try for a VBAC, they feel at least some degree of sadness at the loss of that birth experience. And so I text back and I’m like, “Okay. If you are confident in that decision, I support you. Let me know if you have any questions,” and then her husband was like, “All right. Pictures are coming next.” SoI could see a picture of the baby and I am like, “Okay well, I guess that’s it. It’s settled.” And so I was with my husband just watching shows. It was in the middle of the night. We were watching shows waiting to hear the word and I wanted to be able to chat with her for a little bit afterward while she was in the recovery room. I remember when I finally got the call, my doula-self was ready. I was ready to help her cope through the loss of this birth experience that she wanted so badly because that’s what we do as doulas. We help people cope through hard things sometimes. Kay, you called me and we were talking. I could hear a little baby cooing in the background and there was hustle and bustle in the room. After you had talked to me for a little while, I was like, “Okay well, I will let you go for tonight. We will talk more tomorrow, but I just want you to know that it’s okay to be so excited that you have a happy, healthy baby right now, but also, it’s okay to feel sad about the loss of that VBAC experience that you wanted and worked so hard for,” because that is what I usually tell people if they end up in a repeat Cesarean. I am like, “It’s okay to feel both of those feelings,” trying to bring this peace to her and say, “It’s okay to feel all of the things. We need to feel them.” I will never forget the words that you said to me. You said, “Okay. I will keep that in mind for later, but right now, I am just on cloud nine.”You could tell you were smiling. You were so happy. God was with you through your whole journey. You were prepared. You made all the right decisions and knowing more about what happened now, it’s easier for me to look back and see that. Maybe I would have said different things if I was actually there with you in person, but it took me off guard for a little bit. I am like, “Oh my gosh.” Even as doulas-- Meagan, I am sure you are still learning too. Every birth, we take something with us and it helps us be a little bit better of a doula for the next person that we support. That’s one thing I’m never going to forget is that, and you’re probably the first client I’ve ever had that’s actually said that to me fresh out of the Cesarean. Baby was less than an hour old and you were so confident that you were supported, that you tried your best, and that you were educated, and you made all the right choices that all you were was on cloud nine and that you could look back at your birth so instantly with such happiness. I mean, the conversation has been the same since we have chatted ever since then. It was just a really good thing for you to say that to me because sometimes we just make assumptions about how people feel about their births or how they respond based on other people that we have seen in similar situations.Meagan: Well, and I think that sometimes as a doula, especially doulas who have had Cesareans and then gone on to VBAC or haven’t gone and know the passion behind wanting to go on and have a VBAC sometimes can reflect a little bit more in their own experience of how they feel as a doula because they knew that you wanted that, right? So the hardest thing, and this is maybe a message for birth workers. As Julie was saying, you gave this lesson to her. For birth workers, we have to remember not to assume that someone else is going to feel the way we felt about our own birth because I feel like there are sometimes too where I have had a client go in for an induction and I was super bummed for them, but at the same time, they were completely content with it because again, in the end, they look back and they were like, “I did everything and this is the way it happened. I chose this and I feel good about this. I feel confident about this.” And as birth workers, we have to be okay to be confident with them as well and be okay with their outcome.Julie: Yeah. I think that’s maybe one of the hardest parts about being a doula is we get so emotionally invested when working with all of our clients, and then when we see clients go through the process of an unplanned Cesarean, no matter if it’s a VBAC or a CBAC or just a first initial Cesarean, I think we always start mourning the loss for them-- and not always, maybe, but at least for me, I have to really check my headspace to make sure that I don’t start making assumptions about how they feel about their birth before they tell me how they feel about their birth. I totally did that with you, Kay. I totally just had my speech all ready to go. I was getting ready for when you were going to call me and it was just like-- you know, we all learn lessons along the way, and sometimes we have to re-learn these lessons and re-learn these lessons. That was just very valuable to me that you said that. I will never forget it and the happiness in your voice. I hung up the phone after talking with you and I looked at my husband. I was still crying a little bit because I was so sad for you. But why was I sad for you when you were so happy? I told my husband-- he was like, “How did the call go?” I was like, “Well, she’s really excited and happy. So I guess I am really excited and happy too for her.”It was just such an interesting change of feelings. Maybe that’s just the thing that comes with virtual doula support is that we help, and support, and send information, and call, and answer questions just as if you were to do it in person, but because we are not there sensing the emotions and feelings of things, I pulled in my own emotions. I will remember that conversation after your birth for the rest of my life probably.Kay: But it’s interesting too because I have been on both sides of it. I have had a vaginal birth and I had a C-section after not expecting to have a C-section in any way, shape, or form, and then with that C-section, I had all those feelings that you are referring to. I had the disappointment and the “what if.” What if I tried this? What if I tried this? And then having this C-section, because it was my own because I dictated it, the nurses and the doctors, not the doctors, the nurses-- I think they were disappointed when I decided for a C-section, but I knew it was the right decision. We had those instincts. We prayed about it. We had that gut intuition and that is completely why I felt so in control because I know if I kept going that I could have been in a dangerous situation. My gut was just telling me, “This is not the right choice.” And because I had that, my husband had it, it was my plan. It was nobody else’s plan except mine, where the first one, I was not in control. So I think it is so normal, but I feel like there should also be a, “your Cesareans can be beautiful too” because this was such a beautiful, beautiful experience. Even though you train for it, it can still be so peaceful, and so I will look back on this birth with nothing but happy memories because I did my best. I trained. I tried everything and this was the path that I was meant to take. I am totally, so at peace with it and I absolutely love it. I feel that Cesarean pride.Julie: I love that you said that. I love how you said that this was your plan. This was not anybody else’s plan. Even though it wasn’t plan A, it was still your plan because you had taken the time to make a plan C and you had taken the time to get educated and trust your intuition. You really trusted and honored that instinct and what you needed to do. So I just love that, that this was your plan. It was nobody else’s plan and I think that’s really important.Q&AWell, I think we have a couple of questions to ask you. We have been forgetting to ask questions, Meagan. Last week when we recorded five episodes, I don’t think we asked questions in a single one.Meagan: Oh, I know.Julie: So it’s been a while.Meagan: I know. I know.Julie: But I remembered this time. Do you want to ask them?Meagan: Yes, sure. So what is your best tip for someone preparing for a VBAC?Kay: Preparing for a VBAC, I would say to make plans A, B, and C. I know it is something we said over and over again, but to have all of those plans, and know that each one of them can be absolutely beautiful, and to kind of revel in each of those plans. If A happens, awesome. Euphoric. If B happens, it’s also euphoric and if C happens, it can also be euphoric if you have this, this, and this in place. And to figure out what is going to be important for you. So I think it’s just as important to listen to all of those beautiful VBAC stories as it is to listen to beautiful CBAC stories because it does not have to be the trauma that most of us have experienced in our first C-section. It can be different. That would be my advice.Meagan: I love that.Julie: Love it.Meagan: I love it. I also know listening to CBAC stories, or uterine rupture stories, some of the harder stories that we share on here can be hard to hear because it can be something that you are like, “Wait, no. That is not what I want to hear because I don’t even want to imagine myself going there.”Kay: Right.Meagan: But there’s so much you can learn with those stories. So I try to encourage people to find a space for that. That might take time, but find a space for it because I think you will be pleasantly surprised when you listen. You learn more and you will feel more in control at the end.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Who is behind the voice of our podcast introduction? Who edits The VBAC Link podcast episodes? Meet Brian Albers, The VBAC Link’s secret weapon! Listen to this episode to find out why Brian has earned this title time and time again. We also learn some fun secrets and ask him some of your burning questions. But in all seriousness, we are SO grateful for all Brian does for us. He is a quality, genuine guy that they just don’t make these days anymore!   Additional linksThe VBAC Link on Apple PodcastsHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsThe VBAC Link Community on FacebookThe VBAC Link ShopFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: All right, you guys. Guess what? This is an episode that I know you guys have all been waiting for since we posted a picture of our secret weapon wearing, “Don’t be all up in my perineum.” If you haven’t seen the post, go scroll back in our Instagram. We have Brian, who is our secret weapon. Julie started calling him that, I don’t know, forever ago.Julie: Because he is.Meagan: He really is. He has proven it. So we today are going to be recording an episode about Brian. Brian is the voice of our intro on our podcast. Review of the WeekMeagan: We have a review, and Julie is the best review reader. We all know this. I can’t read.Julie: Oh my gosh.Meagan: She can. So Julie, go ahead and read your review. I hope you picked a big one. I think strategically, you probably pick the big ones knowing that I can’t read them.Julie: Yeah. That’s exactly what I do, actually. I pick the bigger ones and leave the smaller ones for you.Meagan: I always hope. I always hope.Julie: We have so many. I don’t even think we are going to get through them all, so I am trying to pick more recent ones because I know that you pick older ones and so I feel like maybe we have a little bit of both worlds in our review reading. All right. This review is from Apple Podcasts and it’s from carrie.vic so we can totally Facebook stalk her if necessary.Her title is, “OMG, the best VBAC resource out there” and then she says, “Thank you so much to Julie and Meagan for this podcast! I began listening to it right after my C-section in August 2018. Then, when I found out I was pregnant in June 2020, I re-listened to every episode. So. Much. Information. So much positivity and hope. I had my VBAC on 02/11”That was just this year.“and I don’t think I could have done it without The VBAC Link. This podcast helped me ensure I had the most supportive birth team and provider, provided so much useful information, and all of these mamas made me truly believe in my capability to do this!“Thank you, thank you, thank you a million! Sending so much love to all you mamas out there! ❤️”I love the heart emojis. I love the reviews. I love carrie.vic from Apple Podcasts. Thank you so much and congratulations on your VBAC.Meagan: Yay. Congrats, congrats. I love when we hear the reviews and we don’t have to go stalk them. So if you leave a review or if you have left us a review and then gone on to have your baby, let us know how things are going because we kind of stalk you on Facebook, not on Facebook Facebook but on our Facebook community to see because we love following up and hearing about the stories. So leave us a review and if you have already had your baby, drop us an email or tag us on Facebook and let us know.Julie: Yeah, because we really need closure on these things. Like the ones from last year that you read, I’m like, “Oh my gosh, they had their baby eight months ago. I don’t know what happened.” Closure is always good.Meagan: Okay, without further ado, we are going to have Brian give us the intro.Brian: All right, here comes the music. You are tuned into The VBAC Link podcast with Julie Francom and Meagan Heaton, VBAC moms, doulas, and educators here to help you get inspired for birth after having had a C-section. Together they have created a robust VBAC preparation course, along with this uplifting podcast, for women who are preparing for their VBAC. Although these episodes are VBAC specific, they encourage expectant moms to listen and educate themselves on how to avoid a Cesarean from the get-go. The purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. It is not meant to replace advice from any other qualified medical professional. Here are your hosts, Julie and Meagan after we hear from today’s sponsor.Julie: “Here are your hosts, Julie and Meagan”Meagan: Yay. I love it.Julie: I love it. Brian is amazing. I call him “our secret weapon” because he is our very first person that we ever paid to do anything from The VBAC Link. He literally saved my life because when we first started, I was editing our podcast episodes using a free program that I downloaded, and every Tuesday night I would be in a rush trying to get-- I’d spend two hours editing, and trying to crop out “um’s” everywhere, and putting the intro and the exit there, and get it in the right spot, and get it uploaded, and get everything posted in time for our Wednesday podcast runs, and then Meagan connected us with Brian.Meagan, you’re going to have to tell the story because I don’t even remember how you guys met. But then he literally saved two hours of my week and that’s why he is our secret weapon. But not only that, he is our video guy. He records the videos for our courses and we also give him a whole bunch of random audio/video stuff to do here and there for us. So he is called “our secret weapon” because he saved our lives and we want to keep him nice, quietly tucked away in our own little package so nobody else can use him because he is ours.Meagan: Brian, you belong to us.Brian: Yep.Julie: We will lock you in a dungeon with a computer and some audio equipment just in case you ever decide you want to stop editing.Brian: And honestly Julie, what you described Julie, just cutting out the um’s-- that’s pretty much what I do. That’s the bulk of it because there are so many, really.Julie: Yeah, because me and Meagan don’t know how to not say “um.”Brian: Well, I mean, everybody says “um”.Julie: I know.Brian: It’s just a natural, normal part of speaking, but when you’re trying to present it as a podcast, you want to sound as pro as you can. And cutting out those “um’s” is working towards that goal.Meagan: Yes.Julie: Yeah, and then not saying “um” is another step.Brian: Yeah.Meagan: Yeah.Julie: Maybe when we are grown up we will stop saying “um”.Meagan: It’s seriously one of the most, it’s one of the hardest things for me. What’s funny though is I don’t recognize myself saying “um” or “uhh” but I totally recognize anybody else saying “um”. I’m like, “Oh my gosh that person says--” like I recognize “um’s” more, but in myself, I don’t. I don’t know why that’s a problem.Julie: Until Brian sends us a message that says, “You guys are saying ‘um’ a lot more than usual. Just pay attention.”Meagan: “Can you guys drop the ‘um’s?”Julie: And then we are texting each other during podcast episodes and saying, “Oh my gosh I am saying ‘um’ so much.” No, but I have learned that I replace that with “so”.Brian: Uh-huh, or “and”.Julie: Yeah. And “and”. Yeah, and “so”. That’s awesome.Brian: And that’s okay. That’s okay too.Julie: Yeah. So let’s get going. Um, we-- see? There I did. Oh my gosh, I just said it.Brian: Yep.Julie: You’ll probably have to edit that out.Brian: I’ll leave that one in.Julie: Yeah, you can leave that one in because, um-- oh my gosh. Now I am going to be so hyperaware. Oh, this is not going to go well.Meagan: Oh my gosh. Okay, so I was just reflecting back on how I got a hold of Brian and I feel like-- okay. So I had a client who, crazy enough, yeah. Anyway. So I had a client and he does video and then his wife does sound. I asked her, I sent her a text or something. I was like, “Hey, do you know about anybody or do you know anybody?” And she was like, “Yeah.” I can’t remember if she sent Brian to me directly or if she sent me to someone else, but I’m pretty sure she sent--Brian: You’re talking about Michaela, right?Meagan: Michaela, yeah.Brian: Yeah.Meagan: Michaela knew you, right? I thought she sent me directly to you. She was like, “Yeah. I know someone.”Brian: Yeah, because I work at the NPR station here in Salt Lake City and Michaela does as well. She is a weekender and that’s how I know her. She still does work there and I still do work there so we still do know each other.Meagan: Yes, yes.Brian: And so she approached me and she asked me if I was interested in helping out some friends of hers start a podcast or do a podcast or something. I don’t know if she just didn’t have the details or just didn’t give me the details, but I had no idea what anything was about. I just knew it was something about audio editing and a podcast and I said, “Yeah, sure.” I love doing audio and I love helping people if I can pursue what they want to pursue. If I can help out, I will help out. Especially when it comes out to audio stuff because I’ve been doing audio forever. And so I said, “Yeah. Throw them at me. Give them my email. Whatever happens, happens.” And that just got the ball rolling.Julie: And then you became our secret weapon.Meagan: Yeah. She sent me your email. That’s right. I was like, “I was pretty sure it was direct.” And then I sent it to you. I remember emailing you and it was such a big step for Julie and I because Julie was our editor before and she did a wonderful job, but she was tired of it. And we are not professional. We are not professional. It’s not easy.Julie: It was so much work. Oh, well and Brian can edit a podcast episode in 30 minutes that takes me two hours to do.Meagan: Unless we say “um” all the time and then it’s two hours. But yeah. But no, it was just such, I don’t know. The stars aligned so perfectly. I will forever be grateful for her and we are forever grateful for you, Brian, and we are so excited that you are with us.Brian: And that was when? That was the fall of 2018?Meagan: Two years, mhmm.Julie: Yeah. Right about that.Brian: And you hadn’t done too many episodes before I came on board, right?Julie: I think we were 30 episodes in.Meagan: I was going to say, I think it was 30 or 40.Brian: Wow.Julie: Yeah.Meagan: We really hadn’t done that many and they were a mess.Julie: Brian was like, “You guys really need to find a studio and I actually know one that might be available.”Meagan: Yeah. He’s like, “You need to have better audio.” So it’s just been so awesome and then we were like, “Oh, we are going to do this online course. Hey Brian, do you know how-to video?” “Yeah.”Brian: “Yeah.”Meagan: And you guys, he spent an entire Sunday--Julie: It was like, 10 hours.Meagan: Yeah. With us in an empty duplex sitting there as we were just talking about-- like seriously, yeah. It was amazing and yeah. I am so grateful for you.Brian: And actually, videoing is the easy part. It’s all the editing and post-production that takes forever.Julie: And so you know so much about birth, and Cesareans, and VBAC--Brian: And do you want to know? The funny thing is when I started editing the podcast, I, first of all, didn’t know it was a birth thing.(Meagan and Julie laughing)It was just a podcast. Seriously, I had no idea--Meagan: He didn’t know.Brian: --what it was about until I heard the first audio. I had no idea what a VBAC was. I had no idea what a VBAC was. I had no idea what a doula was. I had to look that stuff up.Julie: And now you know way more than you ever thought you would know about birth.Brian: Oh, I know way more than I thought I would ever know.Julie: Probably way more than you would ever care to know.Meagan: You could be a doula, Brian.Julie: I want to read your bio really fast.Brian: Oh, go for it.Julie: You wrote out a really well-thought-out bio and I want to read it because I think it is transitioning to what we are talking about right now, but I want you guys to know a little bit more about Brian and then we can talk some more, and share some really embarrassing stories, and all that fun stuff.But Brian is a SoCal native which-- I did not know that about you. Meagan probably did. Meagan is a bigger people person than I am. But you moved to Salt Lake City in the summer of 2015. You are a lifelong musician and we have seen some of your stuff on YouTube. It’s pretty amazing. You have been an audio engineer since the early 90s. You worked in radio, big-time nationally syndicated stuff as well as small-time local stuff as an engineer and on-air host since the mid-90s. He is currently an on-air host at 90.1 KUER NPR Utah, headquartered in Salt Lake City, heard throughout Utah, and video editor in marketing at Salt Lake community college. I did not know that either.You run Humorless Productions. That’s his business name. Remote audio, video recording, and post-production, primarily concert recordings, primarily noisy undergroundy, aggressive, electronic music. Obviously, not recording too many concerts these days. You are an avid skier. I did know that. Avid road bicyclist-- also knew that, and hard-core introvert. Also knew that.And let me tell you, people, Brian‘s never married and has no kids. Brian is such-- this is why I call him “our secret weapon”, right? He literally edits a birth podcast. He has never had kids. He has never seen somebody or helped somebody have a baby, but he is sitting over here being the biggest trooper for us. He came to our first birthday party and took pictures with us in our little made-up photo booth. He is just always so willing to help out and is just so-- I don’t know. I just think you are a good-quality, genuine guy. They just don’t make people like you anymore. I don’t know if that makes sense.Brian: Well, if you think about it though, if you put yourself in my position, I mean, I don’t really have to know anything about birth specifically. I’m just doing the audio.Julie: That’s true.Brian: You know? I just pull it up on my computer and put it in my editing program and start editing. At that point it’s not about birth, it’s about audio and it’s about making the people sound good.Julie: Which you do a great job of.Brian: So the podcast could be about anything and I’m still going to do the same process.Meagan: Right.Julie: Yes.Meagan: But at the same time, you are so willing to go the extra mile to do so many other things. In fact, even wearing your “Don’t get all up in my perineum” shirt.Julie: “Don’t be all up in my perineum.”Brian: The perineum shirt.Julie: Actually, can we talk about that shirt? I’m going to have that available in our VBAC Link shop. So if you go to thevbaclink.com/shop, you can see exactly what we are talking about and buy your own. “Don’t be all up in my perineum” shirt straight from our VBAC shop. So by the time this episode airs, I will have it up there and live for you. I am pretty sure we can include a picture of Brian rocking it. In fact, that might just be our main product image.Meagan: Yes. Yes. I love it. Okay so, Brian. What got you into-- I mean, you’ve been doing this for such a long time. What sparked your interest in this? Like as a kid, what did you do as a kid? Did you want to do stuff like this as a kid? Like in editing and audio and video and all that?Brian: No, I mean, as a kid, like as a teenager, I would ride my bike around the neighborhood or ride my bike just as much as I could, so that’s always been a lifelong thing. I started playing guitar at 12 or 13 years old and that pretty much instantly became my main focus forever. I wasn’t good at it instantly. I wasn’t a prodigy, but I got fairly good at it in some short amount of time. I was sort of a natural musician. It was just a language that I understood.Meagan: Yeah, it just came to you.Brian: It just kept going and going from there. I was in bands back in the 80s which-- we didn’t go anywhere. We didn’t record anything. But I was always playing and I was always getting better. Eventually, the first thing I did out of high school was, I went to a guitar school in Hollywood. It’s the premier West Coast guitar school via Musicians Institute and the Guitar Institute of Technology. I graduated in 1990 and from there, that’s what got me interested in audio. In playing guitar, and playing with bands, and playing with other people and recording as well, I was interested to know how exactly. You know, you mic up a guitar and why does it sound different if you put the mic here or if you put the mic here? Or if you use this microphone or that microphone? I was interested in that sort of stuff. I just dove into it headfirst while all along being a musician, but also being interested in audio.Once I eventually went to proper college, I was a music major at first, but then I switched to audio engineering and graduated as an audio engineering major. That was in the mid-90s. That’s when I started in radio. I eventually did my own music shows in LA and I was an engineer for some big radio shows in LA. It all just came together and that’s how it’s been since then.Meagan: That’s awesome. I didn’t know that about you.Julie: Yeah. You’re pretty good at it. You’ve got a natural talent.Meagan: Yeah. Oh my gosh.Julie: Alright.Brian: Isn’t that what they say about kids? Because I’m a middle kid. I have an older brother and a younger brother.Julie: Aw, that makes sense too.Brian: Isn’t the middle kid supposed to be the artsy one?Meagan: You know, my middle kid is. She is very artsy. I mean she seriously, she was 18 months old and I remember we were in this group of people and there were some coloring books. She sat down and started coloring and this lady was like, “Oh my gosh” because she was color blending and coloring in the lines so perfectly. She was like, “What in the deal?” And then now, she can just look at something and she just draws it. And she’s like, “Look, this is--”. The other day, she brought home-- it was Cat in the Hat, Dr. Seuss’s birthday, or whatever, and she brings me this Cat in the Hat picture. I am like, “Oh my gosh.” She is so good that way, and then she is really good in the arts like dance, and music, and things like that. She is really good at the piano and she is six. So, yeah. I would say my middle kid is good at it.Brian: Cool.Julie: I have two middle kids and I would say my third is definitely the more artsy one. But again, they are three, four, six, and seven. My seven-year-old has really mild cerebral palsy so he has always hated handwriting. He’s always hated coloring because it’s hard for him because of his right hand. It’s his right side that is affected. He’s not severely disabled or anything. It’s really, really mild cerebral palsy, but it affects his right extremities and so he is forced to be left-handed when his brain operates in a right-handed way. He’s never been good at that type of thing. I wonder if that’s true. I don’t know. We will see. We will see as my kids get older I suppose.Meagan: So tell us something else unique that no one would know about you that we don’t even know.Julie: Yeah. Behind the scenes.Brian: About me?Meagan: Yeah, because you are. Like we said, you are just like this secret weapon. You just have all of these hidden talents. What is something that you-- I don’t know. What is something secret?Brian: Well, I have a good one. I don’t know if I have told you before, but I lived-- so I am from Southern California. That’s what I say. That is the short answer. But the long answer is I was born in San Diego and I grew up in San Diego. But I lived all of my adult life in LA and so LA feels more like my home, which sounds sort of weird than San Diego, but if you press me, if you asked me where my home city is, I will say LA. But then, I also moved to Austria twice.Julie: What?Brian: Yeah. I lived there for most of 2005 and then I moved back to LA, and then I moved back to Austria from late 2009 to late 2010, so another year there for no reason. It wasn’t a work thing. It wasn’t for anything, I just wanted to live there. So twice, I sold all my stuff and quit all my jobs, and moved.Meagan: Oh my gosh.Julie: Oh, to be free.Meagan: That’s amazing. That’s amazing.Brian: Yeah. I didn’t really know the language too much. I mean, I took some classes beforehand just so I was a little bit familiar, but I went over there and that’s actually where Humorless Productions started my mobile audio/video recording system. That’s where I really cut my teeth because there were so many more shows over there at that time that I could record as opposed to LA, at least for the music that I was interested in recording. And so I went over there, and I brought some equipment, and I would record all sorts of shows every month. It wasn’t easy, but I worked out a system. It’s evolved over the years and now I have a really good system.Actually, the first time I lived in Austria was in Vienna. The second time I lived there was Linz, which is a smaller town about an hour and a half west of Vienna. But if you really asked me if there’s anywhere in the world that feels more like home than anything else, I would say it’s Austria.Meagan: Really?Brian: Yeah. I have five more friends even today in Austria than I do in the States.Meagan: Wow.Julie: That is super cool.Brian: Yeah.Julie: Gosh, I used to travel so much when I was single. I guess maybe it was because I was in the military. I lived in a couple of different places and then once or twice a year before I got married, I would just travel somewhere on a plane. I was just talking to Nick the other night about this and I just miss that so much. You know, you get married, and you have kids, and you’re just stuck forever until your kids get old enough to travel with you. I love that.Brian: And actually when I was over there, I wasn’t really intent on traveling or going around, but that just ended up where the shows were that I would record. Vienna is fairly centrally located, so I would hop on a train and go up to Prague, or Budapest, or to Venice, or to Zurich, or to Munich, or to Berlin, or wherever. So it was all sorts of fun.Meagan: That’s awesome. So cool. Yep. I did not know that.Julie: Yeah. I did not know that either.Q&AMeagan: So I posted on our Instagram what questions people have for you and a couple have come in. Can I ask them to you?Julie: Yeah.Brian: Yeah.Meagan: One, what is the most interesting thing you have learned from this podcast?Brian: I’ve learned all sorts of stuff. What’s the most interesting thing? I don’t know the most interesting thing.Meagan: What’s something that stands out to you that you’ve learned? Obviously, you learned what a VBAC is in general.Brian: Yes, in general.Julie: Maybe if somebody asked you, what is The VBAC Link? What would you say?Brian: Well, here’s the thing. For anybody listening, Julie and Meagan don’t necessarily want you to have a VBAC. They want you to have the birth that you want. If you want a Cesarean, that’s super great. More power to you. The thing is, you’re going to learn stuff. Even if you do a Cesarean, you will learn stuff for your pregnancy that will benefit you if you listen to this podcast. If you are a first-time mother, you will benefit. You will learn stuff from this podcast. It doesn’t matter if you have never had a Cesarean, doesn’t matter if you have never had a vaginal birth. There is just so much good information that you will learn in this podcast.Meagan: I would agree. So another question is, do you share what you have learned with any expectant parents in your life?Julie: Wait, wait, wait. Hold on a minute. Hold on a minute. Thanks for that Brian. That was really nice of you to say. I really like that.Brian: Yeah.Meagan: That really was.Julie: Thank you.Meagan: So to me, Brian, you just answered it a little bit, right? Because that’s one of the most interesting things you have maybe learned, right? We’re pro VBAC, obviously. That’s why we are here and that’s why we created the course, and the podcast, and the blogs, and all of that jazz, but you nailed it. It’s not that we want you to have your VBAC. It’s that we want you to have the birth experience that you want, whether that be a VBAC or not. So I totally love that so much and that seems like the answer to me too. Maybe it’s not the most interesting, but it is something that you have definitely taken away and realized that through editing our podcast, that’s what we are here for. That is exactly what we are here for is to help these people get the birth that they desire no matter what that may look like to them.Brian: And one other thing, it might sound like not the best way to say this, but a lot of these women who come on the podcast have learned lessons the hard way. They want to share their experiences of learning things the hard way so that other women don’t have to learn the hard way themselves. You know? You never ever want to say, “Well, I told you so I told you so,” but I think that’s one of the best things about this show is that women don’t have to go through all the trauma and all the pain that these other women have gone through, not unnecessarily. You know how birth goes. You never can plan it out 100%.Julie: You know how birth goes now.Brian: Yeah, more than I used to.Meagan: Yeah, and I love that. Yeah. I don’t think it was saying it like that or anything. It’s true. We have all learned things in hard ways a lot of the time and that for sure was me with my second provider. I didn’t switch and I learned the hard way to follow my gut. I didn’t follow it the first time. I had to follow it the second time. I am glad that I did so I had the outcome and the experience that I had. So, yeah. I love that.Do you share what you have learned through this podcast with expectant parents in your life? Do you have many expectant parents in your life?Brian: Yeah, I would in a heartbeat. I have only had one friend who had a kid last year sometime in 2020 and I definitely recommended it to her when she was pregnant. I said, “Hey if you want to learn some stuff, listen to this podcast.” I don’t know what her plans were as far as her birth plans, but yeah. I said, “There is all sorts of stuff that you will learn listening to this podcast.”Meagan: That’s awesome.Brian: And she was a first-time mom.Meagan: Yeah. I know, I think that’s something that is so interesting. A lot of the times it’s like, “Oh, I have had a VBAC so I don’t need to listen to that,” but really like you said, the first-time parents can almost learn just as much, if not more, than the people who have had Cesareans. Right?Brian: I mean, how many episodes do you have on the pelvic floor? That is something that every first-time mother can use.Julie: Yeah. At least four I think.Meagan: Exactly. Mhmm. Yeah. And chiropractic care and working through your fear.Brian: Yep.Julie: And big babies.Meagan: Oh yeah and big babies. Things like that and learning what is evidence-based. You know, we really focus on a lot of evidence-based. So yeah. I love that. I love that you referred us. Thank you for referring us. Do you know how her birth turned out?Brian: I don’t know.Meagan: Did she talk to you about that? Most people, probably not.Brian: She hasn’t talked to me about it. I’ve seen pictures of the baby on Facebook and everything looks like it’s rolling just perfectly.Meagan: Going really well. That’s awesome.Brian: Yep.Meagan: So you said you have two siblings. You are the middle child. Did you say, two brothers?Brian: Yes.Meagan: Are they married?Brian: Both of them are. Older brother has no kids. Younger brother has two kids.Meagan: Oh awesome. Do you know how his wife’s experiences went?Brian: I don’t know. I haven’t asked her.Meagan: Right. It’s not really something you probably would. I was just so curious if now--Brian: I mean, I don’t think she’d hesitate to tell me if I asked because she’s an adult. I’m an adult. Yeah. But I just haven’t asked.Meagan: Yeah. Okay, what other questions do you have, Julie? Or what else do you want to tell us, Brian?Julie: I mean, I guess unless you want to embarrass us or roast us, I am so disappointed that there is not going to be any roasting. Throw us under the bus. What kind of dirt do you got on us? Tell the whole world.Brian: I don’t have anything embarrassing about you. I have something embarrassing about me.Julie: Okay sure.Meagan: That’s the thing is, I want to know more about you. I want this episode to be about you. So tell everyone about you.Brian: Well, here’s one thing. First of all, I said in my bio there that I am a hard-core introvert and that’s 100% true. This story sort of reflects that a little bit. It was when I first started the podcast. I think I had met Julie and I had met Meagan maybe once. I forget. Maybe not at all at this point, but one of you called me. I forget who it was. One of you called me on some afternoon and just wanted to say, “Hi. I just wanted to chat on the phone for a little bit.”Julie: That was definitely Meagan. I don’t do things like that.Meagan: Probably me.Brian: I felt so bad because when you called me, I was at the main library and I couldn’t really take a call. I couldn’t really talk but I was totally whispering. I felt bad because I wanted to talk. I wanted to say “hi” but I was just not in a position where I could do any of that because there were people all around, and I was in the middle of something, and you can’t make a whole lot of noise in the library. And so the call ended up being 30 seconds. It was like, “Yeah, hi. Thanks. Okay. That’s cool. Okay, bye.” That was more impersonal than I usually am. You know, in the first place, I really am not the most personable person. I am not friendly at first.Meagan: Really? I think you were. You were friendly.Brian: But I felt bad about that call. But now we all hang out and we are all cool.Meagan: Yes. Now it’s like, “Brian!”Julie: COVID has put a serious cramp in our style. We don’t get to see you anymore.Meagan: I know.Brian: Yeah.Julie: One day. One day, maybe.Meagan: I know. COVID. Darn COVID. How’ve you been during COVID Brian? What have you been up to during it?Brian: It’s been pretty great for me. I call it “working from home”, but at the same time I have been an essential worker at both of my jobs, and so I have really not changed my schedule at all too much. But it’s been great for me as an introvert because everybody else in the office doesn’t show up. They are all working from home.Julie: So you get to be all alone and enjoy being an introvert.Brian: So at both of my jobs, I pretty much have the whole building to myself. I can work at my own pace and I can play music as loud as I want. So it’s been okay.Meagan: That’s good. Have you taken on any side projects or anything other than everything that we send you?Julie: Everything that we send you?Brian: Everything you throw at me? No, not really. I mean, I have all my regular stuff. I have about a dozen blogs and a dozen side projects. I have always a thousand music projects at home which don’t really have a deadline, so I have a mountain of stuff I can always work on. Sometimes I get to it. Sometimes I don’t. Right now it is ski season, so I am skiing every Saturday and every Sunday for months on end. I am working both my jobs quite a lot these days so I don’t have much time to do much of anything.Meagan: Where do you like to ski, Brian?Brian: Well, living here in Salt Lake City is pretty much the center of the universe. We have all sorts of good skiing here. I have one of those multi-resort passes so I have gone to Big Sky Montana this year. I’ve gone to Steamboat Springs this year. I actually have weekends coming up for both of those coming up shortly. I don’t think I will hit Jackson Hole this year. I don’t think I will hit Sun Valley this year. I don’t think I will hit Aspen this year, but I have skied all over the West Coast.Meagan: What’s your favorite resort here in Utah? What resort would you suggest of someone to come to Utah and try out?Julie: Megan is our skier. She probably wants to go catch you on the slopes one day.Meagan: Yeah.Brian: It’s probably not the one that most people would come up with as the number one resort here in Salt Lake City at least, but I go to Snow Basin.Meagan: Snow Basin is awesome.Julie: I like Snow Basin.Meagan: That’s the first place I go.Brian: At least for me. I was going to say, Snow Basin is better than any of the four here close to town. We have Snowbird, Alta, Brighton, Solitude. But Snow Basin is the one I prefer. Just got the best terrain for me. I am an advanced skier. I’ve been skiing my whole life.↔Julie: You got a lot of that in SoCal huh? Just kidding. I’m sure the slopes were amazing in Austria.Brian: Yeah. Yeah. I went skiing at St, Anton in the alps for a week. I skied Kitzbühel.Julie: Aw, what a dream.Brian: I skied the racecourse. The Hahnenkamm racecourse at Kitzbühel a week before the race. It was the day before they actually shut down the course for the race, which was totally cool. So I skied the Hahnenkamm in Austria.Julie: That’s pretty cool.Meagan: That’s super cool. I just started skiing this year.Brian: Really?Julie: Did you? For some reason, I thought you’ve been skiing for a while. I used to snowboard back in the day when I was cool and now I’m just a boring mom. I still have my snowboarding boots. I used to go to Brighton because it was the cheapest one. You could buy a half-day pass for only three of the lifts and it was only $40 instead of having to pay $90 for a full resort pass and so me and my friend would go up almost every weekend. We would go boarding and then we would go to the Porcupine Grill at the face of the canyon afterward and have nachos and hot chocolate which you wouldn’t think go together but after you go snowboarding, they definitely do go together.Meagan: Oh wow. That’s in my neighborhood. Yeah. No, I actually begged to snowboard as a kid. I begged my mom every year. “Mom, I want to snowboard. I want to snowboard” and she was like, “Nope, nope, nope. Too dangerous. Too dangerous” and refused. And so this year for Christmas, my husband surprised us with also a multi-pass and said, “We are--” because you guys probably know I hate winter. I hate it. I hate it. I hate being cold. I like being at the pool feeling the sun and going outside on hikes, and sports, and obviously, as of last year I really took up cycling, and so I just like to be on my bike. So yeah. “We are going to make your winter better.” I will just tell you right now, if you haven’t ever skied before and you have snow In your area and you are listening, go skiing. It has changed my winter life completely. So I love that you ski, Brian. I always remember we would always try to get the podcast recorded at the end of December, or really November, so we weren’t driving in the winter and we would try to get enough through February because we were like, “We don’t want to drive to the studio in winter.”Julie: The studio is an hour away from my house. In some of the snowstorms, it took me two hours to get home, and then there was that one time Meagan made me run out of gas on the freeway.Meagan: Yes.Julie: That was at midnight. It was awful.Meagan: Yeah. We were recording with Brian. This is how much of a champ Brian is. He would literally stay with us at the studio until 11:30 PM. It’s insane what this man does for us. So we just are overly grateful for you. But I always remember he was telling me-- I swear there was two years or something that you were like, “Yeah. I’m going to Jackson this week.” And you would go and ski in Jackson. It’s one of my dreams to go and ski because we have a cabin there and now that I ski, I want to go skiing there because I have heard it’s amazing. I’ve also heard it’s pretty steep though. Is it steep?Brian: Great one. Yeah. They have something for everybody.Meagan: Good, because I am still not as advanced or confident. My husband says I am a really really good skier. I just lack confidence.Julie: We need to get your confidence for skiing just like we want people to have their confidence for birth.Meagan: I know. Okay, one last thing. What advice would you give to parents listening to the podcast? What do you feel is one of the most important takeaways from listening to all of the stories?Brian: The biggest takeaway, and it’s the most obvious thing in the world. Birth is not easy. It is a monumental challenge. You can only be as prepared as you can. You could write down every single thing that you think is going to be a part of your birth plan and both Julie and Meagan will tell you there is not a single birth plan in the existence of the history of the universe that didn’t go 100% according to that birth plan. There’s always going to be some curveball in there that you were not prepared for. It’s impossible to prepare. You can’t prepare for absolutely everything. You can make a birth plan. You can make a backup plan. You can make a backup backup plan. The best thing you can do is just learn, research as much as you can, listen to the podcast, I don’t know what else to tell you. You can’t be prepared for everything but you can just try.Julie: And trust your intuition.Brian: Yeah. And the other thing is that-- I’m sure you’ve said this Meagan or Julie in the past on one of your episodes and I know it’s easy for me to say, “Well, keep this in mind.” But keep in mind that you are the mother. You are in charge. All the nurses, doctors, the providers-- they can tell you, “Okay. We need to do this,” and if that doesn’t line up with your birth plan, you say, “No, wait a second. I am doing it this way.”Julie: Boom.Brian: “I’m doing it this way.” You say it twice. You say it loud if you need to. “I’m doing it this way.” And if they say, “Okay. We’ll work with this.” It might get to a point where they say, “You know what? This is medically unsafe or medically unwise.” At that point, you say, “Okay. I will listen to what you have to say.” Otherwise, you are saying, “I’m doing it this way. I’m doing it my way.”Meagan: Yeah. And it’s okay to say, “Why is this medically unwise?” It’s okay to question that.Brian: Yeah. You are in charge. Not them.Julie: Love it.Meagan: Okay. You’re awesome, Brian. We love you. We love you so much.Julie: Yep. Don’t ever go anywhere. We are going to keep you forever as our secret weapon. Our not-so-secret weapon anymore but I am still going to call you our secret weapon.Brian: Awesome. Okay.Meagan: If you ever decide to go back to Austria, are you still going to stay with us, or are you going to be like, “Peace out Meagan and Julie?”Brian: Well I mean, we haven’t actually ever been in the same building for a year now.Julie: Yeah, so I’m pretty sure it doesn’t matter where he lives.Brian: And we’re still making a podcast, so whether I’m in Salt Lake City or in Vienna, we can still work it out.Julie: Boom.Meagan: Perfect. All right, okay. Well, if you guys want to know more about Brian after this episode, message us and we will get your answers. And Brian, seriously, you are just a miracle in our lives. So, we love you. We appreciate you. Thanks for joining us today and telling us more that we didn’t know about you. And for the ski trips.Brian: Totally awesome.Julie: Wonderful.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Katherine’s unassisted VBA3C was truly redemptive in every way. After three unwanted Cesareans and a traumatic VBA3C, she decided that her fifth birth had to be different. When Katherine’s intuition told her that she was not getting the support she deserved, she knew that birthing unassisted was the path for her. Katherine worked hard to research, plan, and prepare as safely as possible. Her birth was intense, healing, and just what she needed. We talk about the risks and benefits of unassisted births and what things you can do to make sure you are making the best (and safest!) choice for your situation. While we will always advise birthing with a VBAC supportive provider over birthing unassisted, we also ALWAYS applaud women for following their intuition!  Additional linksThe VBAC Link on Apple PodcastsHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Julie: Good morning, Women of Strength. It is Women of Strength Wednesday and let me tell you, I couldn’t be happier to say that. I love that alliteration, Women of Strength Wednesday. I don’t know if that’s exactly an alliteration, but it feels really cool to me. Women of Strength Wednesday. No matter what day you are listening to this on, this podcast was released on Wednesday and so you can proudly be a part of Women of Strength Wednesday.We have a really, really, cool, cool, cool story to share with you today. We have Katherine with us. She has five kids. She had three Cesareans and then two VBACs. Her first VBAC was a traumatic and really hard experience for her and her second VBAC after three Cesareans was a planned, unassisted birth. And so, we are going to talk about all those things. We’re going to talk about when you might need to consider an unassisted birth and how to do that safely, although we always recommend first if you can possibly find a supportive provider to support you in your VBAC, we always are going to recommend that first. But we realize that that’s not possible in every area and so we want to talk about it instead of going into an unassisted birth irresponsibly, let’s talk about options. We’ll go over the risks. We will talk about how to do it responsibly if you find yourself in that position. Review of the WeekKatherine’s going to share her story with us, but before we share her story and before we get to meet sweet Katherine, Meagan has a Review of the Week for us.Meagan: Yes I do. I was scrolling through reading and I was like, “Oh, I totally want to show this one, and then we like to show who it is from. I scrolled over and guess who it’s from? It’s from Paige.Julie: Our Paige?Meagan: Yeah.Julie: Aww.Meagan: Yeah. I’m excited to read this. So the subject is “Best birth podcast in all the land.”Julie: She’s so sweet.Meagan: And I love that. I was like, “That is the cutest.” It says, “The VBAC Link is THE most empowering space on the internet. The birth prep content combined with the safe, beautiful sisterhood and support is truly unmatched anywhere else. I have prepped twice for a VBAC-- once before The VBAC Link existed and the other having podcasts in my ear multiple times a day every day during my pregnancy. The transformation I was able to have physically from doing the bodywork they recommend and in my heart and soul has changed me forever.“Julie and Meagan become your virtual doulas. They hold space for YOUR story and stay with you every step of the way. I can’t express enough what a catalyst their podcast was for me to find my strength, find my voice, listen to my intuition, and have the confidence to completely throw myself into a journey without a guaranteed outcome. I didn’t get my VBAC or my VBA2C, but The VBAC Link gave me so much more than the natural birth I hoped for. Forever and ever grateful for these two women. For their hearts. For their mission. For this safe and uplifting community in a world that has never needed it more.”That gave me chills.Julie: Oh my gosh, Paige. You’re the best.Meagan: Seriously.Julie: She’s going to be transcribing this.Meagan: As you transcribe, can you say, “I am the best”?Julie: Give yourself a high-five from us because we love that review. I just wish I could be a fly on the wall when you are transcribing this episode so I can see your reaction to us reading your review on the podcast and how much we loved it.Meagan: I know. It’s beautiful. Yes and we love reviews so if you haven’t yet, please drop a review. We have tons of podcasts that we have to record and we love to read reviews of the podcast on each recording. So leave us a review. No matter where it is, just drop it even if it is just a message. Message us and say, “Put this on your review.” We would love it.Julie: We just read one of those the other day.Meagan: Yes we did.Julie: An email review. We never share email, instant messenger, or direct messages without asking permission first, but if you leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Podcasts or Google, just regular old Google, it’s free game. So you’re probably going to get your review read on the podcast one day. We are really excited about that. The warm and fuzzies really keep us going and we are grateful for our sweet Paige for giving us that wonderful review.Katherine’s storyJulie: All right, all right. Now it is time for Katherine. We are really, really, really excited for her to share her experiences with us. She lives in Georgia. In Georgia and other states in the south like Florida, Louisiana, and Alabama, the Cesarean rates are really high. The VBAC rates are really, really low and it’s hard to find a truly supportive VBAC provider. There are a few gems here and there, but you’re a lot more limited in your options there than you would be in some other parts of the areas just because of legal guidelines, VBAC policies, and de facto VBAC bans where the hospital will allow VBAC, but no providers will support you through a VBAC or they are really barely tolerant best. And so, Katherine is going to share her journey with us navigating through all of that in the south and then she’s going to talk about her to VBAC after three Cesareans, one in hospital and one unassisted. Before I just start rambling on anymore, I’m going to turn it over to Katherine.Katherine: Okay. I do want to add something. So I am in Georgia currently, but I was born in Virginia where I had my first two kids and my husband is military, so we moved to California and we had our third, and then our last two were in Georgia. So it’s going to be kind of all over the place.Julie: You’ll fit right in.Katherine: Yeah. My first two, I was 17 turning 18 with my first and like a lot of people on The VBAC Link podcast talk about, at that age, you don’t know a lot. No one tells you anything. You just think about the movies and you think, “It’s just going to happen like this,” and you don’t realize that there is so much that goes into it. So where my story goes is, I didn’t actually see a provider until I was 19 weeks. I found out instantly we were having a girl and had my first obstetric abuse type thing where a doctor called me “stupid” because I didn’t want to get the genetic testing done.Julie: Oh my gosh.Katherine: Fast forward towards Christmastime when I was 36 weeks, I ended up moving back home because I was in college at the time. I moved back home and I switched to a practice that was well known around us and everyone heard good things. I was born at the hospital, all the classic stuff. I wanted to see as many providers as I could, but they kept scheduling me with the same lady. My daughter was breech all the time, essentially. Every appointment she was, but I kept telling them that she would flip at night. I felt it. I knew she was flipping every night and then for some reason in my morning appointment, she would be butt down again. And so, at my 38-week appointment, I remember talking with the doctor and I really didn’t like this lady, but that’s all put aside. She told me that I could have an ECV, but I asked her what was her honest opinion on it, and, of course, she gave me her honest opinion which is that it is really risky and it might end up in a C-section anyways.So with that being said, my mom had three C-sections, I am her VBAC baby, but because of her traumatic experience, she ended up having more C-sections. All I was told is, “Oh well, just have the C-section. It is okay.” I showed up at 39+4 to the hospital. You know, a scheduled Cesarean. They didn’t check her position. We had a C-section and one of the things I can clearly remember is the doctor saying, “This baby isn’t breech.” And so, there’s that. I had an unnecessary C-section. I didn’t know I could ask for an ultrasound. Didn’t know it was supposed to be done. I just thought, “They know what they’re doing.” Recovery for that was really easy, nothing traumatic. I didn’t even really think about the trauma of it until years later.My second C-section was when I was 20 right before I turned 21. It was with my son. Normal pregnancy, everything was great. I wanted a VBAC but didn’t know a lot. My mom was constantly in my ear about how traumatic her VBAC was. I still wanted it. I got to my 39-week appointment and I was still high and closed. I still didn’t know a lot about birth and I remember asking if I could go another weekend. They were perfectly fine with it and then for some reason, they ended up calling me that night with C-section dates for that week.My then-boyfriend, now-husband was going back to school and I didn’t want to do it by myself, so at 40 weeks exactly, we had another C-section. Probably the best C-section I’ve ever had. They made me feel like a person and not like someone just laying there on a table. The anesthesiologist got awesome pictures of my son. It was just a really good experience. Recovery was rough. But I feel like I guess, I don’t know. It just came and went. You know? It was normal, kind of rough. I remember getting shots that were in my shoulders, I don’t know how they did it. It just made my shoulders really stiff, so the first week of my son’s life was rough because I couldn’t really pick him up.But going past that, my next C-section was when I was 23. It was 2016. No, 22. I don’t know. But with him, I really wanted a VBAC after two Cesareans. I was dead set on it. It was going to happen. I traveled 45 minutes to a provider who backed me up, didn’t talk about C-sections until well, you know. She wasn’t supposed to talk about C-sections until 42 weeks, but we ended up hitting a speed bump at 40 weeks. But before that at 37 weeks, he flipped to breech. 38 he flipped back on his own and then at 40 weeks he had severe decreased fetal movement. Our appointment came and we tried to do a non-stress test and he was really non-reactive on it. We had a serious talk about what we should do and how we should proceed. I was really scared because even though he had a heartbeat and he was doing fine, he wasn’t moving like he was supposed to and I just decided that a C-section would probably be best.We had it the next day at 12. He was born perfectly fine. He had a double nuchal cord which sounds scary, but knowing that it happens in 30% of births, they said, makes it seem not as bad and that it is normal. So yeah, that happened. I had a really bad recovery, postpartum depression. I remember in my six-week check-up, my doctor who did my C-section was really supportive of me and she told me that the day before she had a VBAC after three Cesareans. She assisted one. I thought that was really cool because she was essentially telling me, “There is still hope.” Now, we were in California this time and where we’re about to move to Georgia. I met a lady who was a doula who had a home birth after three Cesareans. We had met out of coincidence and she told me in Georgia about a well-known doctor there. So I was really excited to find out we would only be two hours away from him. We move and unexpectedly get pregnant almost immediately as we move. So thus, the panic set in. I decided that I was tired of being ignorant to birth, and what can happen, and how it works, and things like that, so I took a birth class. It was a really good one. It was The Bradley Method birth class. That ended up being probably one of the best decisions I ever made. I learned a lot. I learned coping techniques and then I spent a lot of my time healing my past traumas. So, working on the fact that I have to forgive myself for things I didn’t know and for things that were always said to me and that I just kept believing. You know better, you do better. So I had my provider, had really good support. We were on top of things. I had a really healthy pregnancy until 35 weeks. At 35 weeks, I ended up having high blood pressure and my swelling was out of control. We had to have a serious talk about how we were going to proceed because he couldn’t induce me because the hospital, even though it was a medical thing. We decided on a 24-hour protein.We did that and it came back that it was just above the line for what is diagnosed as pre-e. From there, we chose to do weekly monitoring, so BPP, NST, and at 39 weeks, my son flipped to breech. That was the biggest shocker of my life. I cried, and cried, and cried and got through the weekend, and then just decided, “It’s going to happen as it’s going to,” because my provider wasn’t pushing me. He was breech supportive. It was like, everything was there and even when we were talking about our options, ECV was still an option, even though I was 39 weeks and I had semi-on the lower end of fluid.I declined that. I just knew he would flip back on his own. So I decided to wait and at 40 weeks he was back head down, to everyone’s amazement. And then after that essentially, 41 weeks came and went, 42 weeks came and we had to have another serious talk about, “How are we going to proceed? Did I want to just settle for a C-section?” Because nothing was happening. I didn’t do cervical checks at all for this pregnancy because, in past pregnancies, they just made me feel really defeated because nothing was happening. No effacement, nothing. He asked if I wanted one and I told him, “No.” He asked if I wanted the membrane sweep and I told him, “No,” because that goes with having a cervical check too. And so we decided no more appointments because at that point, it was sort of like I was meeting a goal each week. Every single week, I was just meeting a goal. So I said, “No more appointments.” On that day I had my NST, I swore I was having contractions, but none of them were picked up on the NST.I drove home. I woke up the next morning. I was 42+1 at that point, and I cried my eyes out because nothing was happening. I remember telling myself, “I should just do the C-section. On Monday, I’m just going to call. I am just going to get it over with. I can’t do this anymore.” I remember I ate a pint of ice cream. I folded some clothes. This is at four in the morning. And you know, me and my husband did our thing. I took a nap and I woke up in labor. So from there, I did 19 hours out of the hospital. We labored at home for 11 or 12 hours and then, we moved to Atlanta, so we had to drive for two hours. Made one pit stop because I had to go to the bathroom and then, we got to the hotel. Spent 5 to 7 hours there. That’s where our doula met us. I remember that deciding moment for us going to the hospital was my husband. I had just woken up from a nap. I guess I had passed out in the bathroom sitting on the toilet, best place to labor ever, and my husband and doula, I can hear them talking. He was like, “When do we go to the hospital?” She was like, “Oh, I guess it’s whenever she wants to.” I really didn’t want to. I honestly didn’t even want to go to Atlanta. I wanted to stay home. I really didn’t-- I don’t know. I guess I was afraid, or I was just comfortable, or something.We go to the hospital. When I get there, I was 7 centimeters, -2 station and my water was bulging. I remember being in so much shock because I didn’t think anything was going on. I was totally in denial that I was in labor even though it was really hard to get through. We ran into a couple of bad nurses. The first ones that we met were awesome, but the nurses that when shift change came were rough, but I’m not going to go into that too much.Yeah. Essentially from there, it took us five hours to go from 7 to 10 because I assume he was posterior. No one ever actually said that, but I was on my back a lot because I was really tired. This was going to 25 hours of labor. I remember the nurse looked at me and she asked if I wanted fentanyl. Mind you, I had no idea what that was. The way it was advertised to me was, “Oh, it will just take the edge off.” And you know, that could mean anything, but my tired self took it. From there, I remember passing out multiple times because I was so exhausted. That was part of where a lot of my trauma came from because I felt like I was really out of control. I could still feel all of the pain, but I couldn’t control or focus on anything anymore. It was like the room was spinning and I would pass out, wake up to pushing. It was bad.So I had a cervical lip. We pushed that over the baby’s head and then we did two more rounds of pushes. It was coached pushing. Not really my favorite thing, but I guess I needed it because I couldn’t really control anything anyways. I think by the third set-- it was like, the first push did nothing, the second push got his head out, and the third push got him out. I suffered a second-degree tear. Recovery wasn’t terrible. It was definitely way better than a C-section, but it took me a good eight weeks to feel anywhere close to back to normal. And then after that, I sat with myself and had to figure out how to process everything that had just happened. I noticed that the more I talked about it, the more I cried because it was just hard to deal with everything that happened. So we ended up getting pregnant again, Father’s Day of 2019. We ended up losing that baby and then we immediately got pregnant with our son Logan. That pregnancy, I tried to stay with people closer to the area because I didn’t want to travel again. I guess from my experience, I just couldn’t do it again. I didn’t want to go back there. It wasn’t even the provider. It was the hospital. And so I didn’t want to go back there, but I tried to look around. Essentially, I already knew most of the places around here were going to tell me, “No.” I knew that for a fact. I even looked into a midwife, but the backup that she wanted doesn’t support VBAC for herself. I just decided that wasn’t for me and I didn’t want to go with that midwife. So I ended up at a teaching hospital and they had midwives there. They were just starting it and I was really excited. I kept hitting dead ends with them because they follow ACOG guidelines and ACOG doesn’t have a stance on VBAC after three Cesareans So they kept saying, “No” even though I had already had one. Then from there, I decided reluctantly to go back to the old place. I was like, “Maybe it will be different this time.” So I went back and I met a new midwife who, in my first appointment with her, shamed me for everything that I had gone through with my son. Like the fact that we chose weekly monitoring instead of just getting a C-section and she was like, “Well, that’s really dangerous. You shouldn’t have done that because it could have changed any second,” to which we planned for that. I would’ve just gone to a hospital near me and just gotten a C-section. It wasn’t like I was all or nothing.I didn’t really feel comfortable anymore. When I finally got to see the doctor for the first time, the one that was so supportive, I didn’t really like the answer he gave me when I talked to him about how to help myself from the nurse side when going to the hospital because obviously you can fire and nurses, sure, but it doesn’t mean that your next nurse is going to be someone that supports your decision either.In that moment where I was so panicky and I needed someone to be calm, it was like I felt like they were yelling at me because I couldn’t-- I don’t know. I was really panicky and I just felt like they were yelling at me instead of going, “Hey, calm down,” and talking me through what was going on. So when he had said to me that, “Well, you just need to use your voice more,” I was like, “Oh. Well, that is not what I wanted from you.” I want you to tell me like, “Okay, we can try this this time,” or give me actual ways to try to work on what was going on. It sat with me for a while. I remember going to my ICAN meeting and talking to the leader there. She was really someone that helped me with my first VBAC after three. This time around, I just told her that I couldn’t do it and I was really leaning towards unassisted. It was calling to me. I felt in my heart that I had to do it. Everything with my first VBAC after three Cesarean and wanting to stay home was the right choice. I should have done it the first time around.So from there, I joined a Facebook group that was recommended to me. I looked around for a little bit and I thought stuff out, and then I started doing my research on unassisted birth stuff going beyond what you learn in a birth class. My husband was on board the whole time. He actually was telling me today that if I hadn’t known my stuff and made him feel comfortable, he wouldn’t have been comfortable. So he trusted me explicitly to make this decision and know how safe that was. And that’s okay. Because it really was my body, my birth, so I’m just happy that he was really supportive of me. And really, everything went great. I remember doing Brewer’s diet for my last birth also because I wanted to make sure that pre-e wouldn’t be a thing again and if it did, I would have gone to the nearest doctor and gotten stuff sorted out. But everything went well. No swelling, no BP issues. I just kind of sat through it and my doula was behind me also.So it was really nice to have all that support for something that is so, I guess, I don’t know the word to use for it. Like, man. I don’t know. I don’t want to say risky because it’s not risky. I mean, you determine your level of risk and for me, it didn’t--Julie: It’s just not common. It’s just not common.Katherine: Yes, uncommon. I don’t know. So essentially going past that, like I said, everything was great. I was wondering how far I was going to go this time because the last time was 42 weeks and I was getting really antsy. I was so hoping I would go into labor sooner, which I did, but it wasn’t by much. It was only by like a week. So I went into labor at 41+1 weeks. This was after two days of spotting. Oh man, I feel like things went so differently because I chose to do the Miles Circuit and I chose to do Spinning Babies actively. I went into labor at nine at night and had him at 5:18 in the morning. It picked up so quickly and I think it was just because I tried to keep off my back and keep myself moving. I remember that I wanted to do a water birth and so we had our tub and everything set up. My husband was filling it and everything and I remember getting that feeling like something was between my legs, like that bowling ball feeling that I had never felt before, and I was like, “Oh, I have to get in the tub.” So I got in the tub and I think within 30 minutes, he was born.That was interesting to me because it’s so night-and-day to the experience I had the first time around. One of the things that I always found so interesting too is with my first one, I remember feeling nauseous, but I never puked and I feel like that’s something that’s hardly talked about in birth, but then with this one, even though I hadn’t eaten anything, I remember puking at least two or three times before he was actually born. And that was so uncomfortable, but you don’t even think about it once they are born. It’s just like, “Oh my God, you’re here.” He was perfect. Honestly. It was so nice to finally be able to have that time with my baby. No one is messing with you. No one is touching you. He was just so perfect. I can’t even tell you how beautiful that moment was for me because it’s hard to even explain. For such a night-and-day experience, it was just the best thing that has ever happened to me to be surrounded by love, and support, and people that aren’t doubting you or putting unnecessary pressure on you to stay in bed. No one is offering medicine to you. I actually just had my experience. It was me, the labor, and the baby. We were together and we were one. It was just so nice.But yeah. I have been doing, I guess, as much support as I can on the VBAC side for other moms since then because I feel like after my first VBAC I didn’t feel that, not responsibility, but I didn’t feel like I was ready to because I still had a lot to process and to deal with from my first VBAC. So the fact that my second VBAC went so well, it’s like, okay. There is a redeeming factor for some people. Just because you had one bad VBAC doesn’t mean that your next one has to be horrific also. So, yeah. I think that’s it. I am sorry if I rushed through anything. I just didn’t want to get into too much.Meagan: No, you didn’t rush.Preparing for an unassisted birthJulie: No, you did great. Yeah, I want you to talk a little bit more about things you did to really prepare for that unassisted birth and what you would recommend people do if that is an option that they are considering.Katherine: Okay. That’s a fun one. Okay. So first I would start with-- I think when you're first considering that, you should really sit with yourself and evaluate your own risks for your births. Like past births and even possibilities for a current birth. Once you sit with yourself and if you feel in your soul and in your heart, however, you want to explain it, your gut, if you feel like that’s a good feeling and that it’s possible, then from there, it’s finding the right outlet. So for me, it was asking people who have had an unassisted birth what groups they went to for support. There is one group on Facebook that I really loved. It’s not like something where they sit there and tell you how to do everything. It’s more of how you should look at this resource or if you really have a question that you can’t find the answer to, they point you in the direction of resources you can use. It was also really nice to see so many like-minded women talking about herbs and tinctures, delayed cord clamping, or even just going full-on lotus birth. It was so nice to see that and experience that environment. And then from there, you just do your own independent research on birth emergencies, and how often they happen, and how to handle them if you can handle them because sometimes you can’t and that’s just a fact of life. There are certain things that you can’t handle and you do need to get medical attention for. And then from there, so specific to me, one of things I really looked up was breech birth because I’ve had three breech babies. I have no idea if my fifth ever flipped to breech because I wasn’t seen by anyone. I did all of my own prenatal care. I didn’t really feel like he ever flipped, but it’s possible that he did.So I needed to look that up for myself and to say, “Okay. How is breech birth handled?” And you know, a lot of the time you’ll see it’s hands-off. And so doing that research about hands-off and what to look for in an emergency with a breech birth, I am very thankful I didn’t have to do that because I feel like my husband would have freaked. And then I think after you do your research, then comes making sure you know how to handle prenatal care and learning about how to take your blood pressure, what urine test strips you look for, and what everything on it means. And then from there, I took my weight religiously. I took my blood pressure religiously. I had my own Doppler. Lots of unassisted birthers use fetoscopes instead, but I had not even heard of that until after he was born. So I used a Doppler and we tracked his heart tones. During his birth, I wanted to check it more, but it ended up being something where we tracked it in the beginning and how I was feeling. If something felt wrong, I would have asked, but we only checked my blood pressure and his heart rate one time throughout the eight hours because I didn’t feel like anything was wrong. I feel like a lot of unassisted birth, that’s what it is. It’s going off your intuition and how you feel. You have to feel secure in yourself when you’re going for an unassisted birth because if you don’t feel secure, that’s where the problem lies. You can’t go into it not knowing what’s going on with yourself and your baby. I don’t know. I think that’s where I would cut that off because it goes, I feel, so much deeper than that too.Meagan: Yeah. It’s a big decision. It’s a very big decision and you have to be prepared. You have to be prepared on all aspects. You have to be prepared for a great outcome, a not-so-great outcome, and a bad outcome. And yeah, it’s hard for some. You know? But then there are some people that are like, “Nope. I’ve got it.” And then they do. They dive in and they do. They just sponge it all up and they are ready.Katherine: Yeah. I love those types. I love those women. I am so serious. I have met a few of them and they are just beautiful people. I love how they’re just so solid in themselves. And I understand. You can be a mom and not be solid in yourself and that is perfectly fine because I mean, it took me what? Four births to even feel that way about myself? So, you do. You have to understand, and really trust yourself, and trust your baby, and you have to trust that things are going to work out how you want them to and if they don’t, how to handle those outcomes.Meagan: Yeah, but it happens. There’s seriously some areas where there’s not even a provider if they wanted a provider.Katherine: Yep.Meagan: They can’t even get where-- like the times right now that we live in, it’s wild. It’s just wild. And it’s scary sometimes when you’re like, “I don’t know what to do.” So the only thing you can do is educate yourself and prepare yourself.Katherine: Speaking specifically towards a VBAC after three or more Cesareans, the ICAN leader I had hosted a really beautiful seminar on what to do when you are going for a VBAC after three Cesareans and you keep hitting dead ends. That largely lies in knowing your rights. So if you are in a place where they are telling you, “No, you can’t do this. Hospital policy won’t let you do this. Yada, yada, yada,” it’s then knowing your rights and that they can’t deny you care if you are in labor. They can’t force a Cesarean on you, but coercion is a thing. They will say and do very scary things to make you submit to what they want. It’s knowing that you have to fight for the right. That’s terrible to say, but you have to fight for that. You have to fight for the birth that you want. I think that’s interesting how unassisted birth and that ties together because it’s, I don’t know. I don’t know how to explain it. It’s just interesting. If you’re not going unassisted, that’s what you’re doing essentially is, you’re telling doctors, “No. I am doing this,” and it’s being okay with that. That’s interesting to me.Megan: Oh, thank you so much. Julie, is there anything else that you want to say? I know you were wanting to close it up?Julie: No I just want to say, we always encourage you to do your best to find a provider that is going to support you and your VBAC journey, but here’s the thing. You need to be able to trust your provider, but if you can sense that your provider doesn’t trust you back, there is a big disconnect there and it’s going to cause a lot of problems. We know like I said earlier in the episode, that there are some states and some parts of the world where it’s not easy or even possible to find a VBAC supportive provider. Especially now, in the COVID area where hospitals are forcing parents to birth alone. Now, husbands are allowed at least, or birth partners, or baby’s fathers, or the other parent, whatever you want to call it, are allowed in the hospital now, but at the beginning of this coronavirus, women were birthing alone and providers were coming into the room in hazmat suits. Women were being forced to choose and not always making responsible decisions about their care. And so I think the thing that we really want to hit home here is, we don’t necessarily say, “Hey, if you can’t find a supportive provider, go have your baby by yourself,” but what we do want to encourage is finding that provider that you can trust. Interview as many providers as you need to, but if you feel like you are forced in this position between birthing in an environment that you feel is hostile, or that does not support you, or give you the autonomy over your own body and birthing unassisted, you need to get busy. Get educated and learn all of the things and then there’s going to be more and more to learn. The more you learn, the more there is to learn about all of these things. You have to be diligent. You have to know all about different types of emergencies and how to handle them, and how to react in different types of situations, and really trusting your intuition and your gut instincts about what’s right and what’s not right, and learning how to follow that really really well. And then, there you go. If it feels like that’s the right thing for you, then trust that. We always encourage people to trust their intuition. If your intuition is telling you to go down that route, do it, but do it in a very prepared, and educated, and smart way. All right. Well, Katherine. We are so grateful to you for sharing your story with us today and being an inspiration for people who might choose to birth a little bit outside of the box. We always want to make sure that we are covering all types of birth scenarios and all types of birth outcomes on our podcast. We are happy you shared your story with us here today and we hope that those listening learn something from you. I think that everybody should.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

After her first labor stalled and ended in a C-section, Carlee remembers leaving the hospital so grateful for her healthy newborn, but also confused, exhausted, and longing for a “birth redo.” When she became pregnant again, Carlee planned mentally, physically, and emotionally for a dreamy HBAC. She also prepared thoroughly with a super supportive team at a nearby hospital if needed. At the end of her pregnancy, Carlee presented a severe case of cholestasis and her plans suddenly changed. Carlee began her low and slow induction at 37 weeks with no signs of labor and an unfavorable cervix. But the patience of her birth team, the support of her doula, and her ability to make decisions regarding her care all set her up for a nice, healthy VBAC. When plans changed, Carlee’s preparation still set her up for success and empowerment. Carlee is proof that a medically necessary induction doesn’t mean you have to go right to a C-section. When working with an early induction, patience is the key. With the right mindset and a patient birth team, you have a good chance of having a great birth experience and an even better chance of having a VBAC. Additional linksThe VBAC Link on Apple PodcastsHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Happy Women of Strength Wednesday. You are listening to The VBAC Link and this is Meagan and Julie and our friend Carlee. She is from Arizona and she is going to be sharing her VBAC story today. There’s something interesting about her VBAC story. If you have never heard of cholestasis, then you want to listen up because we’re going to talk a little bit about it, and what it is, and why it’s important to actually get the baby here sooner rather than later when it is present. We are going to dive into her story. As always though, we have a Review of the Week and Julie will be sharing that with us.Review of the WeekJulie: Yeah. I’m going to share a review. But before I share a review, I’m going to congratulate Meagan for saying “cholestasis” right.Meagan: I know. I always call, in my head, I’m like, “Choleo--”Julie: Cholestasis.Meagan: Yes. And I just, it says it all the time. I’m like, “Choleostasis.”Julie: You didn’t even stutter. It was just nice and smooth off the tongue, so I was very proud of you. I had to let you know.Meagan: Perfect. I am growing up.Julie: The things we mature on by running a podcast. All right, so this review is from Apple Podcasts and it was left by “natashahoff”. This is one we can Facebook stalk, except it was just left a couple of weeks ago. But I am going to read it. The title is, “So empowering.” She said, “I found this podcast after I had a Cesarean birth with my daughter almost two years ago. I knew I wanted a VBAC and I wanted to hear birth stories from women who have had ‘success’. Little did I know all of the incredible, evidence-based information that Julie and Meagan share on each episode and on their blog! I now feel like I have a wealth of information to help me achieve my goal of a VBAC, from choosing supportive providers to preparing my body for birth, all the way to what to do if my plans don’t go the way I would like. I’m so excited now that I am pregnant with my second baby to be able to put these plans into action and begin my journey to a beautiful VBAC in October 2021!Meagan: That’s coming up.Julie: First trimester. I know.“Thank you, Julie and Meagan, and all of the wonderful moms who have shared their stories!Sincerely, Natasha Hoffstater”I love that she signed her name. Gosh, we should have waited to read this until October so we could go to Facebook stalk her and see if she had her VBAC. Oh well, we will come back to you Natasha. I promise.Meagan: Yes, I was going to say. Natasha, keep us posted along the journey because we love hearing. We love it. We truly love when we get the messages and we are like, “Oh wait, you were the one we talked to way back when.”Julie: We are getting old enough now, and I mean mature, not old, although we are old as well. Well, not Meagan. I’m just the old one. But where we are coming full circle with a lot of the stories and it’s really, really fun. It’s really cool because I love when people share that the podcast educated them and helped them have lots of information. Can I do a little shameless plug-in here for our VBAC prep course?Meagan: Yeah.Julie: Because the podcasts are definitely lots and lots of information, but you have to listen to-- what are we at now? 170-something episodes in? That’s 170 hours of information that you have to listen to. That’s why we created our VBAC prep course because it is condensed. It’s just the nitty-gritty, need to know, absolutely everything covered that you need for your VBAC, but hyper-focused in this six-hour course in easily digestible video segments with corresponding text and set up all really nice and easy, so you don’t have to listen to all 170 podcasts. You can just go and instead watch a six-hour course. It’s set up so you can stop and go, and stop and go, and stop and go. It can take you a while or you can do it all in one day. That way, you don’t have to sit and listen through every single podcast. It’s just a nice sweet, Saturday afternoon with your husband and your little toddler running around, and then you can get empowered and educated in one day.Meagan: Yay.Julie: So, I love that. Either way, we’ve got your back. Something for everyone here at The VBAC Link.Carlee’s storyMeagan and Julie: Alright.Julie: Ope, jinx.Meagan: Are you ready to get into this story? I know, right? We are so excited for Carlee’s story and oh my gosh. Okay, Carlee. We are not going to take any more time. This is your time. Let’s turn the time over to you.Carlee: Okay, awesome. Thanks, ladies. I am super excited to share my story and hope that someone can learn something or take something away. Starting from the beginning I guess, growing up, I was never really afraid of birth. My mom had four natural births at the hospital, but nice, smooth, easy birth,s and both of my sisters had natural births at the hospital as well. So I just thought, you know, my grandma, everybody just all had easy, nice, easy, natural births, so I was like, “It’s going to be okay whatever happens to me when the time comes. I will read a couple of books and I will be good.”It turns out it was a little trickier than that. I got pregnant about after seven months of trying. My husband and I started trying after a year and a half of marriage. I was diagnosed with PCOS when I was 16. Doctors always said, “You’ll get pregnant, but most likely with help, with Clomid,” or whatever types of fertility treatment. So after seven months and getting pregnant naturally, I was super excited and super grateful. I remember that first call to the first doctor, “Um, I think I am pregnant. I got the positive on the pee stick. What do I do now?” I don’t know if anyone else has ever done that. But I was just like, “Oh, what do I do?”With that doctor, I had an ultrasound with them, but I didn’t really vibe with the doctor and so I was like, “I think I’m going to switch to someone else,” which I’m super glad I did. I went to a group of midwives that deliver at a more natural hospital here in the area. My sister had used them for her first birth and so I was like, “Okay. They are going to be great.”Throughout the pregnancy, I met all seven of the midwives. I found two that I enjoyed more and felt more connected to and so I had always hoped that they would be on-call when the time came. For the most part, pregnancy went really well. I went to all of the regular appointments. I turned out to be GBS positive, which I hadn’t really looked into, so I was like, “Okay. I guess antibiotics is my fate.”Towards the end of my pregnancy, I was due in September and during the summer, we lived in Boston for my husband’s work. We left out of town and then came home in August to start student teaching at 36 weeks. It was my senior year of college and I didn’t drop out. I just decided to do it. So I student taught from 36 weeks up until I went into labor, and then the plan was to have four weeks off and go back into student teaching. So it was a hectic time of my life for sure. Birth wasn’t quite the forefront of my mind and I do think that definitely played a part.When I was 40 weeks and 1 day, I made it all the way to the end. I started feeling period cramps around 4:00 p.m. and I was like, “What? Am I starting my period? This can’t be.” I don’t feel like anyone ever told me that period cramps are the start of contractions, so that was shocking to me.Around 8:00 p.m., they kicked up again, so I was like, “I am going to go to bed.” At 11:30, I woke up and got in the tub. I was just like, “I am just going to try and relax through this.” 20 minutes later or so, my water broke and that was the craziest sensation. I just remember feeling this “pop” and then a gush of water. I was like, “Uh, I think my water broke.”So, I got back in bed. I knew I shouldn’t rush anything, so I put the blanket down on the bed and laid down and tried to rest, but I was really just on the app counting contractions. Don’t do that, anyone, in the future. It’s not worth it. I just felt like I should have really--Meagan: It’s like watching the pot boil.Carlee: Yes.Meagan: If you just sit and watch it, it never boils. The second you walk away, you’re like, “Oh. What’s that noise? Oh. It’s boiling.” I agree, “Rest. Just rest.”Carlee: Right. So. I wasn’t. I was so giddy and excited. I called the midwife and it was one of my favorite ones. I was so excited and she said, “Take some time.” Contractions were 5-7 minutes apart, which I feel like is kind of close, but I think I was probably counting them wrong. I don’t know. I was all confused right then.So she said, “Take some time, but we do you want to come in to get on the antibiotics so you can get your two doses,” and so, we got in. We went to the hospital around 3:00 a.m. and contractions were pretty good. They were coming. I got to triage, which I think is the worst place ever. I do not like triage. I got checked there and I was 1.5 centimeters. I was just like, “Oh, you have got to be kidding me.” I got into a room. They took my blood. The guy came in to give me an IV and I asked them, I was like, “Hey, I really don’t like needles. Could you be nice to me?” And he was like, “Oh, deal with it,” basically. I was like, “Oh, okay.” So I think right from the get-go, I just did not feel comfortable in the hospital. I felt out of place. I don’t like hospitals to begin with. Just from the get-go, I was like, “Oh, I don’t like this. I don’t feel comfortable.” I think I shut down a little bit. They had tubs there though, in the hospital, that you could labor in, not deliver, but labor. And so, I spent a lot of time in the tub. I didn’t have a doula, so it was just me, and my husband, and the information I had read from Ina May. I just tried to work with what I knew to do, so I would be in the tub, try different positions, change around. The nurses would come in and check baby’s heart rate. The midwife would come in and see how I was doing, but then contractions really just spaced out and after about 15 hours of my waters being ruptured, they suggested Pitocin. I just really wanted to do natural and so I was like, “Maybe not yet.”They decided to give me half of a pill. I don’t remember what it was called.Meagan: Probably Cytotec?Carlee: Yeah, something to help the contractions, I think. Is that what it is?Meagan: Cytotec, yeah. It’s like your cervix wasn’t super primed and ready. It’s, yeah. Something that can help effacement and dilation. The contractions usually kick in a little bit with that as well.Carlee: Okay. I took it orally. Is that the same thing?Meagan: Uh-huh, yeah. They do it vaginally and orally.Carlee: Okay, because I have heard of the vaginal one. But, okay. So that got contractions a little bit closer together, but they still weren’t-- they were 7 to 10 minutes apart. Just not ideal. And then, they checked me and I was 4 centimeters. So still, not really-- progress, but not as much as they wanted, you know? And so, we decided to go ahead and start the Pitocin. Oh my goodness. Wow. Those really amped up. And so, I wanted something, I needed something to help me relax, but I was so against the epidural. So they gave me something. They said, “It will last two hours. It may make you hallucinate. I don’t know what it was called, but it did exactly that.”Meagan: Maybe fentanyl?Julie: Fentanyl?Carlee: Yeah, probably. Okay.Meagan: It makes you feel, a lot of people are like, “I feel high.” And like, “Whoa.” Like out-of-body and sometimes nauseous.Julie: Loopy or drunk.Carlee: Yeah. I was definitely, at one point, I was running down the street in The Lego Movie. I have never seen The Lego Movie, but I was a Lego person running. It was so weird.Julie: Oh my gosh, that’s awesome.Meagan: That’s the cutest.Carlee: It was crazy. So it was the middle of the night. My husband was trying to sleep and I’m trying to get some rest, but you could still feel the contractions. And so, I was getting out of bed every seven minutes and asking my husband, “Come hold my hips. Squeeze them.” So, making him get out of bed and just a rollercoaster of just-- it was awful. Once I woke up out of that hallucination, weird, daydream stuff, the nurse came in and said, “Baby’s heart rate kept dropping while you were on that, so we had to stop the Pitocin, but we want to try it again.”So we tried it again and then baby’s heart rate dropped again. You know, that whole stop and go, stop and go. At this point, I am 7 centimeters. I had stalled at 7 centimeters for a while. I think this was hour 30 and so, that was the first time I really considered a C-section and realizing that this was probably what might get my baby here. I still wanted to wait and they did let me wait. My midwife, I just have this vivid memory of her standing, like leaning against these cupboards, her arms crossed around her chest, her feet, ankles crossed over. She is standing up, leaning against this, and just so leaned back and not even caring. Just kind of like, “Yeah. I mean, we can do this, or we can do this.” Right? I’m just sitting in this bed like, “Oh my gosh, help me.” You know? I’m trying everything I possibly can, but I just don’t know what to do. Me and my husband are just confused, not sure what to do. She was just like, “Yeah.” I was like, “Well, should we try the epidural before a C-section?” She was like, “Yeah, you could, but you’ll probably just end up in a C-section.” I am like, “What? You guys are these natural-minded midwives. What?” I don’t know. So that’s why I was just like, “I guess the epidural won’t really work.” And then, they started saying like, “What if something is wrong with your baby? What if something is stopping your baby from coming like the cord or something like that?” And so at that point, I was like, “Well, I probably shouldn’t keep going. Maybe it just would be better to get her or baby, here safely.” We didn’t know she was a girl yet. Get baby here safely rather than potentially having a crash Cesarean and maybe NICU time or whatever.So we did. We decided to call around 5:30 in the morning and it ended up being about 35 hours from my water breaking to go into the OR. Everything in the OR was great. Everyone was really kind and understanding. The anesthesiologist was super nice and the nurse held me while I got the needle in my back, which I was terrified of. I think probably the lowest point though, was lying naked on that table with the lights. For sure. Like, awful. But my husband came up and he got to be there. The surgeon let us know when baby was coming. We didn’t know the gender, and so we wanted my husband to call out the gender. The surgeon held up the baby and he was like, “It’s a boy, I think.” Everyone just laughed and helped him out. It had been a really long time, so we had to give him some slack. He was exhausted. But it was a girl and my heart was just bursting. I just wanted to hold her so bad. I was like, “That baby needs to be over here right now. They did once they did all their stuff over at the baby station.”They brought her to me and I got to hold her in the OR, and then they got me back to our room pretty quick and I got to breastfeed. Everything honestly did turn out pretty good. I still have happy feelings driving by that hospital. It’s not an awful place or anything, just kind of disappointing. I remember asking my midwife before the C-section began, I was like, “Can I have a VBAC? I know my body can do this and I want to do this. I want more children.” I wasn’t sure if C-sections for life were going to be my fate. But she did say, “Yes. You totally can.” I just remember driving away from that hospital with my little baby right next to me in her car seat and just thinking, “What just happened? I want a re-do. I need a redemption on this birth.” That’s what propelled me into trying for a VBAC. I had all of the thoughts of, “Why is it so easy for other women? I thought I had done everything. I didn’t get an epidural. Usually, it’s an epidural, right, that causes a C-section? But, no.” This experience just had taught me a lot.After I had graduated from college and once my baby was a year old, we started trying for another one. I just wanted to make sure I had reached that 18 months of like, “You want your babies to be 18 months apart for an ideal VBAC chance.” I started reading books and listening to podcasts. I found this podcast which I absolutely loved. At the end of my pregnancy, I would just listen to it every night. My husband knows your guys’ voices and all of that.I started to envision what I really wanted and that was ultimately no interventions. I just wanted a natural birth and I realized that the first intervention really is leaving your house, and so I really wanted an HBAC. I wanted to have a home birth. I got pregnant about four months after we started trying and I started interviewing some midwives here in the area. I interviewed one-- I just knew I needed a supportive provider.If The VBAC Link has taught me anything, it’s that a supportive provider is key. And so, I interviewed one and got super excited at how supportive she was with her VBAC, or with HBAC, and thought, “Oh my goodness. This can actually happen. People actually do this.” But we didn’t super connect and my husband-- we got out of the interview and he was like, “Well, that was kind of weird, but if you feel comfortable, I am comfortable.”And so, I decided to interview with another midwife here. We were playing phone tag and she called me back and said, the first thing she said when she answered the phone was like, “I cannot wait for you to push your baby out.” I don’t think she could’ve said anything better to me at that point. I was just like, “Oh my goodness. That is exactly what I want.” That was the support that I needed and wanted. And so, we built a relationship super quick. I just felt so loved by her and trusting of her. Pregnancy went really well. Nothing too crazy, except COVID. At 20 weeks, everything shut down. It was pretty crazy, but everything was mostly at my home. She did home visits with me and then her office. Nothing had really shut down for my care, except the 20-week ultrasound kept getting pushed back. I had it at 24 weeks.But everything looked good and I was just preparing for my home birth. I made a birth goal sheet in case I did end up having to transfer. I tried to envision all different types of scenarios. I think the biggest scenario that I was envisioning of having to transfer was if I was just stalling out, labor was taking forever again, and that I would go to the hospital and get an epidural. That was fine with me. I was like, “I will do the epidural this time. No big deal if I need to. I am fine with that.” So I had all of these, just prepping for this home birth. My midwife actually works with an OB in Phoenix and transfers to him. They have a really good connection. She had suggested, “Maybe do a phone consultation with him just to get to know him and just in case you have to transfer that you will have a record with him. He will know you and you will know him.” So I did. I did that and I loved him right away. He was for super informed consent. He told me, right at the first phone call, he said, “I will never check you. I will never tell you that you need to be checked because that’s assault. I will only check you if you want me to check you.” I was like, “Wow.” So that made me feel really comfortable.Meagan: That’s awesome. Yeah.Carlee: Yeah. Isn’t it awesome?Meagan: It is awesome. Yeah.Carlee: And so, I was just like, “Oh yes. I can vibe with him and if I do have to transfer, I will feel comfortable going to him.” Pregnancy went good. At 36 weeks, I started to feel really nauseous, especially at night, and just no appetite. You know, you’re growing a baby, so there’s no room. That’s what I chalked it up to be. I was really achy and really tired, like, super tired. But you know, I am 36 weeks pregnant and that’s pretty typical. And so, I just chalked it up to be the end of pregnancy.It turns out that those are all symptoms of cholestasis that I didn’t connect until the end. So 36+6, I was laying down relaxing at the end of the night and I asked my husband, I was like, “Is there a mosquito in here?” Because whenever there is a mosquito, I always get eaten alive and he doesn’t get bit at all. And so, I am like, “There’s got to be a mosquito in here because I am just itchy all over.” And just frustrated. I was like, “Ugh, I hate being itchy.” You know? And so, I go to bed and I am just itching like crazy. This is no mosquito. This is more than any mosquito could ever do. I’m not sleeping at all.I start googling. You know, the worst idea to do in the middle of the night. I start googling everything, itchiness at the end of pregnancy and it comes up with cholestasis of pregnancy. I am just like, “Oh no,” seeing that I would have to be induced potentially or all of these different things. I just started having really negative thoughts and I tried to get some sleep but I cannot. So once it was more of a decent time in the morning, which, I guess there is no decent time for a midwife or a doula, I called my midwife. Oh, and I had a doula as well, I forgot to mention, but I did hire an amazing doula who was super great during my pregnancy. So, I called my midwife and doula and just let them know, “I am itching really bad. What should I do? I read that it could be cholestasis.” My midwife was like, “Yes. It could be cholestasis. You’d better get it checked out. Why don’t you go to the hospital where the OB is? I will let him know that you are coming. Let’s just get it checked out just to make sure. Let’s do it for baby. Let’s make sure that we get keep baby safe.” And so, I was like, “Okay, let’s do that.” She was confident, “You’re probably just going to get the test results and come back home, but maybe text us just in case you do stay and do get induced,” because that morning, I was 37 weeks. That’s the day that typically they induce moms with cholestasis.So, I was just a basket full of emotions, but my midwife and doula were so reassuring and just kept saying that, “This is the best thing for your baby,” and that’s what I wanted was, I wanted my baby to be safe and be healthy. I knew I could do this for baby. We decided to go to the hospital where the OB was. It was about 30 minutes away and with COVID and everything, I decided to pack up everything just in case we did stay. I wanted my baby to be in a cute outfit when he or she was born. We didn’t know the gender again. We said goodbye to my daughter as if we were going to have a baby which was so weird and so hard. I was not prepared for that. Everything just seemed so rushed and so quick, that I really had to start shifting my mentality to not focusing on how the hospital was the last place I wanted to go right now and I do not want to have my baby in a hospital, but you know what? God is in control. He led me and He taught me so much with my first birth, that He can teach me so much right now and He will lead me now. And so, I just tried to give it over to God and just trust. I was so, so nervous though especially knowing that induction with VBAC is just not ideal.Meagan: Less ideal, but not impossible.Carlee: Right. Right.Meagan: Yes.Carlee: Exactly. That’s what my doula and my midwife-- they were so encouraging. Like, “You can still do this. You can still have your VBAC. This is not a one-and-done, end-all, be-all. And so, I was just trying to say very positive. So, I got to triage and it was just me allowed. Husbands weren’t allowed because of COVID. I got there around 11:00 a.m. I just thought it would be an NST and blood draw. The OB came in and explained to me my options, and what could happen once I got the results, and just very much informed consent. I got my numbers back and they were some of the highest he had seen. He would have let me leave. He would have let me go home and try to get labor going on my own, but I just felt like it was best to stay and to get induced because I wasn’t sure what this was, you know? And because it can be scary with losing your baby. I definitely did not want that. And so, I just felt like it would be best to stay.I was there basically all day. They were really busy that day. I was just in triage and the little curtain you can’t go around because of COVID, so I’m just staying there trying to stay up. I was doing squats in the little curtained area. I’m trying to do all these positions. It was very weird. But my nurse in triage was so comforting when I told her I was trying for a VBAC. She got so excited and said, “Oh my goodness. The hospital has a 95% VBAC rate.” All this great stuff. I was like, “What? Oh my goodness.” Super exciting.She actually ended up visiting me every night in the hospital after that. After her shift, she would come by and say, “How are you doing? Where are you at? How’s the day been?” Because I was there for multiple days. She was really comforting at a time that I was so, so confused and unsure and just scared, you know? That was very nice.I didn’t get back to my room until 7-7:30 because they were so busy with cases more severe in mine and so they were like, “Oh she gets the next room. Sorry. She gets the next room,” which I was grateful for, but it was also just like, “I am so sick of being here and my husband couldn’t be with me.” Anyway, trying to remain positive and grateful, but I finally got back to my room. My nurse, her name was Beth. I still remember her. She came back to my room. She was an old lady and she looked a little like, I don’t know, a little scared. I am like, “Okay, this is not going to go well,” but she ended up being the most confident in my induced VBAC. She was like, “Oh honey, you’ve got this. You’re going to be so great.” I was trying to go natural. She was all for me trying nipple stimulation first. We got a little breast pump set up and she was like, “Do you want a show? You guys just enjoy your time here.” Super sweet. Super nice. So we turned on The Office and watched a couple of shows or whatever and got some contractions going, but nothing serious and nothing to write home about. We decided at that time to start Pitocin. And at that point, I hadn’t had an IV yet. I hadn’t gotten checked. So the OB came in and he checked me. I was 0 centimeters and 0% effaced and very high up which, I mean--Julie: Oh my gosh. How frustrating. If you’re 37 weeks, you kind of expect that, but when you’re trying to have a baby now, it’s just gotta be hard.Carlee: I was like, “Wait. My baby needs to come.” But yeah. My doula was like, “Carlee, you are 37 weeks. That’s exactly what you should be.” I was like, “Oh yeah.” No one was concerned about that. They were like, “Yep, that’s fine.”Meagan: That’s such a good point. Such a good point right there. That’s exactly what you should be. I love that.Carlee: Right.Meagan: Because you wouldn’t expect to be 4 centimeters at that point, right?Carlee: Right. I didn’t want to be.Meagan: Like, you’re really early. Yeah.Carlee: And so, it was a good-- like, “You’re exactly where you should be.” And I was like, “You know what? That’s right. That’s good.” So, I got the IV in, which I hated again, but it was better and started at the lowest low of Pitocin which I made sure, because of what I have learned here, that you start at a 2 and move up 2 every 30 minutes, right? On Pitocin?Julie: Yeah, or longer. You know, 45 minutes to an hour. Yeah.Meagan: I like to say an hour. I like to suggest to my clients, to encourage an hour because it really takes 30 minutes for the uterine receptors to receive it and start acting. And so, it’s hard to know what it’s actually going to do at 30 minutes because we haven’t given it time to actually do it. Does that make sense?Julie: Yeah, it actually starts responding within minutes, but it takes 45 minutes for the full strength to hit the uterus. So you’re not contracting to the level you adjusted it to until it has been 45 minutes. So if you’re adjusting every 30 minutes, you’re contracting based on the dose you got two times ago instead of the last dose. I don’t know if that makes a lot of sense.Carlee: Yeah. I think they were doing every hour. I can’t remember. I was like, you know, and it hurts. I’m pretty sure they said every hour because they were very VBAC friendly and everything. So I think they were doing that, but I am not sure. But it ended up working out. So that night, on and off throughout the night, and then at the shift change the next morning, the OB checked me and said that I was 2 centimeters and 50% effaced, which, I was bummed because that just seemed like my fate in birth is just going so slow. But everybody else was so excited about that. They were like, “You made so much progress over the night.” I was like, “What? Okay. I guess so.”They were just so happy because, at that point, we could try and get the Cook’s catheter in, which, I have always heard about the Foley bulb, but my OB wanted to do the Cook’s catheter. I don’t know if you want to try and explain that.Meagan: I mean, it’s pretty similar. Cook’s catheter actually has better results. But I mean, it’s similar. It’s a catheter that goes into the cervix and is inflated like a balloon on the other side with the saline. It puts pressure on the cervix which is like a manual dilation, then it eventually, once the cervix is open, it just falls out. So people all around the world, you know, it just depends. It’s honestly a doctor’s preference and sometimes it’s what the hospital has. It’s either a Foley or a Cook. But essentially they are the same.Julie: Yeah. The Cook’s just puts pressure on both ends of the cervix and the Foley bulb just pulls from the outside, or from the inside, towards the out.Meagan: It pushes pressure down. Yes. It pushes down.Julie: From the inside of the cervix to the outwards, yes. It pushes down on the cervix. That’s right.Carlee: Gotcha. Okay. So, yes. So he tried to get that in twice and it was not working. I was like, “No, no, no. I have to do this. This is the only way.” You know? I am just having all these negative thoughts, but he was like, “You know what? Try and relax. We’re going to take a break.” And then his wife who is actually a certified nurse-midwife, they own a practice together and work in the hospital together and everything. He was like, “I will have my wife come in and try. She’s got smaller hands,” or something. And so, she came in two hours later and she got it in the first try which was exciting. So she took over my care from then on. I don’t know, but it was great because I loved her too. So we continued with Pitocin, moving around. We would go up to the full amount of Pitocin and then take an hour break, then get back on. Eventually, so the catheter was put in at 9:30 and then the catheter fell out at 9:15 when I was on the toilet. It was the most exciting moment ever because my body was actually working and I just couldn’t believe it. I thought they were going to have to deflate the fluid and take it out manually or something.So my body was working and they checked me that night at 7:00 and said I was a 6. So I was just super excited. I was a 6. Contractions honestly, were pretty consistent, but I was able to breathe through them, no big deal. And through the night again, I labored with Pitocin. Lots and lots of Pitocin trying to give birth. But it was nice. That night, the nurse was there. She was amazing and she was talking sports with my husband which, I think, super helped for him. He had just been in this birth world for going on 24+ hours, and so just having the sports talk with her was super exciting and super nice for him. It gave him a nice big mental shift and excitement.The next morning, Ellie came back to check me. I was still a 6, but kind of 7 centimeters and 80% effaced. So again, it was easy to feel discouraged. That was a whole other night of laboring and Pitocin. My doula decided to make her way over because she couldn’t leave once she got there. And she had four other births going on at the same time, so I felt really bad, but she was a saint and came in. She and my nurse gave me some new positions to try to help baby labor down and it was a huge help. The positions just helped me a ton. Hands and knees, ball, toilet, side-lying, all of the things. I couldn’t walk the halls but was just trying to stay active. Also, trying to remind myself to rest because it had been so long and just to be okay with slow because sometimes that is okay and my baby was, her heart rate was amazing. Sorry, it was a girl again. I blew it again. But it was a surprise for us. So she was amazing and probably what let me keep going this long.At the end of the night, Ellie, the nurse-midwife, was in the office all day and she didn’t like having other people check me or do anything. And so, we waited until she got back to do anything else. But around 4:20 that afternoon, I was laboring on the toilet and trying to stay positive knowing that 7 centimeters was where I got stuck with my daughter. I knew that there is usually a wall when most women are trying to VBAC and was trying to get over that. As I’m sitting on the toilet, I feel my baby drop. I had never experienced that before, and so to feel her drop down and get into my pelvis, I broke down. I lost it. I started crying and saying, “I can do this. My body isn’t broken. I can get past the 7-centimeter hump.” And just the biggest motivation for me. My doula actually got a picture of me on the toilet and it’s one that I will cherish forever. It’s amazing just seeing the confidence in me that knowing that I could do this.I got checked again and I was 7 centimeters still, but 90% effaced and at 0 station. I made some big progress. We decided to have my water broken, which I thought a lot about but decided we need to get this going and it will be the next best step. And so, I got my water broken and then contractions amped up a ton. I asked to turn off the Pitocin. I was doing it on my own now. I got in the shower, but I had to get out of the shower because they wanted to keep checking with the monitors. Those portable ones weren’t staying on. I just really wanted the birth tub like I had envisioned during transition to be totally in the tub, and relaxing there, and breathing through, but I was not there. I was in a hospital where I did not want to be. I came to realize that I should probably get the epidural to give me the biggest shot at this. It was around 7:30 at night. I got the epidural and it worked pretty good. Yeah, it worked pretty good. That’s about it.We were able to rest until about 11:30 and I got checked. So, four hours later, and I was complete and at +2 station. We were all so, so, so excited. I got to labor baby down for about another hour and then I started pushing. And pushing with the epidural was not my dream. I couldn’t really feel what I was doing. I felt pretty ineffective, but soon I got to reach down and feel my baby which was super cool. Even at this point I still was like, “I could have a C-section at any point.” Like, they could still wheel me back. I was not positive. Although, I guess when I touched the baby’s head, I was pretty close. I don’t know if-- I doubt you can have a C-section at that point.I don’t know, but it was really exciting. And so, towards the very end, I started feeling really nauseous and as I was pushing, I started to throw up. It was really glorious having my husband hold a throw-up bag as I am pushing. Everyone was coaching me, like, “Come on. You can do it. Push harder.” And I am puking my guts out. I think that happened through four contractions. I definitely-- I threw up pushed my baby up which was so weird, but pretty cool I guess. I guess that’s pretty common, being nauseous and throwing up at the end.Julie: Yeah.Meagan: It definitely is because a lot of things are shifting, too. As baby is moving down, our organs and all those things that have been pressed up and jumbled around to make room, they’re moving and shifting, and so sometimes it can make us nauseous.Julie: They are starting to let loose.Meagan: Plus, we are holding our breath during pushing and that in itself can make us nauseous, and then we get hot and that can make us nauseous. So it’s all just--Julie: A hot mess.Meagan: Yeah.Carlee: That was me. That was me at the end. Yeah. I threw up and she came out, but I got to pull her up on my chest which was the most amazing moment ever. Something that I wished with my first baby I could have done. But it was amazing. So I got to pull her up, do skin-to-skin with her for two hours or whatever, and then, yeah. That was my birth, basically.Julie: That’s exciting.Meagan: Aww. Congratulations.Carlee: Thank you.Meagan: I know. It is such an awesome feeling. So, question. After you had your baby, did you feel much better and feel less like you had cholestasis? Did you feel better?Carlee: Yeah. It was interesting. Once I got to the hospital and started the whole labor process, I really didn’t feel itchy again which was weird, but I don’t know. I guess I just needed to get to the hospital and then my body could relax. I don’t know. Yeah. I didn’t really have any more itching after getting there and then after having the baby, yeah. My nausea went down. My achiness, you know, all of those things. So yeah, it left right away, which, I know sometimes it can stay on for a couple of days or so, but--CholestasisJulie: Yeah, usually it resolves pretty quickly after the baby is born. It is so interesting. I just want to talk a little bit about cholestasis. It’s actually not that complicated of a thing to understand. But it is something that you usually don’t really hear about until you have it. Right? So cholestasis is actually a problem with the liver. It affects the liver. It either slows down or stops the normal flow of bile from the gallbladder. So it can cause itching, which is the first symptom of cholestasis, and then it can turn into jaundice-type symptoms like the yellowing of your skin, eyes, and mucous membranes. Essentially, it starts deteriorating your liver. And then, if you have problems with your liver, then it can also cause problems for your baby which is why they recommend inducing cholestasis around 37 weeks if things aren’t looking too bad. Sometimes they even recommend it at 36 weeks. Usually, it develops later on pregnancy, but sometimes it can show up in early pregnancy, which would mean you would need to transfer to a maternal-fetal medicine or a high-risk provider pretty quickly in order to manage that.So, pretty simple right? It affects the liver and it affects its ability, it stops the normal flow of bile, which kind of sounds really disgusting, but it is just a normal body function. Yeah. And the cool thing is, I really love this story because we were talking about cholestasis, which, I don’t know that we have had somebody with cholestasis on, have we?Carlee: You had one.Julie: Did we?Carlee: I listened to it, yeah.Julie: Oh, so we did have one. But it has been 170 episodes. You guys, I can’t even remember. I wish I could remember every single topic that we have talked about. But also, with the cholestasis, and then you had an induction at 36 weeks with a cervix that was not showing any signs of being favorable and a nice, patient birth team that let her go low and slow on the induction, and she had a long labor, which is kind of expected when you are 37 weeks pregnant. But with the patience of her birth team, and the support of her doula, and her ability to make decisions regarding her care, all set her up for a nice healthy VBAC. Now, I’m not saying that every time you have this scenario, sometimes it is not going to go that way, and sometimes a repeat Cesarean will be needed because if your body is not responding to labor, it’s just that a whole bunch of things come into play.But I really like hearing stories of an early induction or preterm induction. I guess you were right on the brink of the early term category at 37 weeks. But I love hearing those stories of success because it gives people hope when they do have things that are mesically-- I just combined medically and necessary into one word. Medically necessary for the baby to come out, you don’t have to go right to a C-section, although in some circumstances it might be the best choice. But where induction is an option still, you can have that induction and be patient, and be prepared for the long-haul because honestly, a 37-week induction is probably not one of those ones that is going to take two hours, and then you have a baby. It is probably going to take a couple of days. As long as you are set up with the right mindset for that and you have a patient team, then you are going to have a really good chance of having a good birth experience and an even better chance of having a VBAC because patience is the key when we are working with earlier inductions.Meagan: We said earlier that obviously, induction is not the most ideal. It is just not, but it’s not impossible. When you have providers like Carlee did, it is so possible. It is extra possible because they have got patience, they understand the physics of birth, and what the cervix does, and what the cervix needs. A lot of the time, it just needs time, like Julie said. Usually, you don’t go in, unless you’ve totally had a baby before, I wouldn’t say that it is impossible to have a baby within 24 hours. A lot of the times, you go in in the morning and have a baby by 3:00 p.m., but when you haven’t had a baby vaginally before and your cervix hasn’t gotten all the way there yet and things are different, it just takes time. It takes a lot of time and the biggest thing, one of the biggest things that we talk about in our VBAC course a lot is finding a good provider that you trust and that trusts you because if your provider doesn’t trust you, that could be a problem.Julie: Yeah. You need trust both ways.Meagan: Because that means your opinion, yeah. Your opinion won’t matter as much because they don’t trust you, right? So you need to trust them. They need to trust you. And all of us need to trust birth. We need to trust birth. We need to trust our bodies, that our bodies can do it. It just needs time. You know, from my birth, I likely would have ended in a C-section if I were in a different place because it was 42 hours and I was stuck. I was a certain centimeter for a really long time and I was exhausted. It was rough. And it’s just, yeah. I can’t stress a good provider enough. So, so proud of you, love and congratulations again. Thank you so much for sharing your story.Carlee: Thank you guys so much.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Have YOU heard of little c antibodies? Sarah gives us information and inspiration as she shares her story with this rare condition. She fought for the redemptive home birth of her dreams while caring for herself and taking the highest precautions for her baby. Sarah built the supportive birth team she didn’t have the first time around and made birthing choices that helped her feel the most in control. Her HBAC with a nuchal hand was a whirlwind and a story we know you’ll love!Additional linksThe VBAC Link on InstagramHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsMamasteFit Childbirth EducationFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Julie: Welcome to The VBAC Link podcast. This is Julie and Meagan here with you today and we are really excited about our guest today. I was just reading her bio, and then I was reading a little bit about her and her births, and then I had this “Aha!” moment. I am like, “Wait a minute. Are you the one that we were talking to before you had your baby?” And she was like, “Yes, I was.”And so, we have this really fun story, kind of a little established relationship I guess, before the birth and after the birth. It is always fun to be able to talk to people that have reached out to us before they have their baby and then hear from them after they have their baby. I am so excited to hear the full story.But before I tell you what made her story stand out to me, I’m going to read a little bit of her bio that I thought was really cute. If you can hear my three-year-old in the background, she escaped from quarantine upstairs. My husband will come down soon and rescue me from her.But Sarah‘s bio is really, really cute. She said she is a working mom of two tiny humans and two not-so-tiny cats. She has a quirky sense of humor and an affinity for superhero movies. That’s where I was like, “Okay.” We have got to talk about this because superhero movies-- I really love superhero movies now, but before I got married, I didn’t even know the difference between Batman and Superman. Now I know and I have a very strong opinion about Batman. We won’t go into that though. But I married a geek and he is all about the superheroes, and the comic books, and everything. And so, I’ve come to really love the superhero movies and all of those things. It’s a sentimental part of my life. So that made me really happy. She’s part of the American Sign Language community. Her oldest is hard of hearing, so everybody in her family is learning American Sign Language. That is really neat. When I was younger, I was obsessed with sign language. I went to a class and I had a book I was learning and teaching my brother and sister how to do all the signs and stuff like that, but I haven’t done any of that for-- oh my gosh, it has been way more than 20 years which really makes me feel old to say that. But anyway, the part of her story that-- actually, before we do that, should we do a Review of the Week, Meagan?Review of the WeekMeagan: Sure. Sure.Julie: Yeah. Let’s do a Review of the Week and then we will talk about the part of her story that made me excited. Yeah, go ahead.Meagan: OK. This is from Jacqueline Lee and she was on Instagram. She said, “Just found you and will be keeping you. Hoping to VBAC with our second babe whenever they come along. I would love to share my stories when that time comes. I have been listening to your podcast and love how informative and diverse they are. Our first was born in Paraguay when we were teaching. She was breech and so I had a C-section. Hoping for a vertex baby to be able to have a VBAC, but I did labor with our first until an 8. It was a wild story full of funny cultural differences and language barriers.”I love that. I remember when she wrote us that we were like, “Oh, you’re so sweet. Can we put you on our review?” And she was like, “Yes, please do.” We are so excited that she was able to share her review and we hope that when the time comes, she will be able to rock her VBAC and have an amazing story and then hopefully, one day, be on the podcast as well.Julie: That’s awesome. I am excited. It just makes me happy when people come full circle and share they were listening to the podcast and then share their stories on the podcast. That is fun because we have been doing this VBAC Link thing for-- oh my gosh, it will be three years in May. It’s really fun because when we first started out, I was literally stalking hashtags on Instagram to find people who had a VBAC to share their stories on the podcast. Now we have way more submissions than we can even record. And to have people who started out with us before they even got pregnant and listening to the podcast, and taking our courses, and sharing their story, it all is just really exciting to me.Sarah’s storyJulie: All right. Let me tell you. This is the thing that you have all been waiting for. I know you have been holding your breath for the last few minutes just waiting to see what could possibly get me so excited about her story. And it’s little c antibodies. If you don’t know what that means, you are not the only one because Sarah reached out to us on Instagram Messenger, I think it was, asking if we had heard of any VBAC stories or VBAC information about how to VBAC with little c antibodies and Maegan and I were like, “What are little c antibodies?”Meagan: Yeah. I remember because I thought, “Isn’t there a big C?”Julie: Yeah. Big C and little c. Meagan: But I’ve only heard of big.Julie: And we are like, “Is that a capital? Is that like a capitalized? What is a big C? What is a little c?” So we dug in and we found some research on it. It’s really an interesting thing because it’s not something that you hear about very often, but we are going to learn a lot about it in this episode. And before I go any more into telling how excited I am to hear the story, we should probably actually hear the story. So Sarah, why don’t you go ahead and share your stories with us?Sarah: Hello. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. So obviously, being a VBAC mom, I had a first child that was born via Cesarean. She was supposed to be a birth center baby and I was just having all kinds of trouble with back labor and not being able to cope with everything. I don’t think I did as well preparing for her birth and it was a lot. I felt very overwhelmed and I think my husband was doing the best he could, but looking back, I keep saying, I really wish I would’ve had some doula support there. I think that’s one of my biggest regrets. I actually ended up transferring to the birth center about halfway through my pregnancy because I knew I wanted something that was a little bit less hospital-y. Hospitals make me nervous and it’s just kind of how I am. Unfortunately, I did make that call. I think it was one of those 2:00 a.m., overwhelmed, not dilating any, and then going to the hospital. It was a lot.So I labored pretty much all day. I got an epidural and then I didn’t have a very great supportive doctor. He just came in and he was like, “Oh, this is what we are going to do” and “Oh, I broke your water by the way. It already happened.” So just not a lot of consent. Things like that that I know now that I want and need as a mom, and as a mom in labor for sure. Once it came down to it, I think I pushed for about three hours and the doctor was like, “Well, baby is stuck. We are going to do a C-section now.” I didn’t get a whole lot of information about what that meant or what that would mean for me moving forward. It was just kind of happening in that moment.I even remember the anesthesiologist. God bless her. She was amazing. She was the only person that was walking me through what was going on, helping me stay calm, and she goes, “Well, the doc is going to put some pressure to make sure you are numb.” And the doc goes, “Oh, I’ve already started cutting.” So like I said, I just didn’t have a really great experience with my first being born. And then on top of that coming home, I didn’t know how to care for myself postpartum. We had a lot of family stuff going on so I didn’t have any family support, and then I ended up developing both postpartum anxiety and postpartum depression that went undiagnosed for probably about three months before I realized that I needed to start reaching out and getting help.As a result of that, I started looking around-- so that was about five years ago. I started looking around to the birth community as a whole to see what information was out there. I found out what a VBAC was and that’s how I found you guys. It was just in the process of finding out what my resources were. Moving forward to the start of the pandemic last year. I found out I was pregnant and then a few days after that, my work went to remote, so I was working from home in my first trimester with a four-year-old. It was nonsense. It was about as fun as it sounds. I always say, “I love my kid and I love my job, but I do not like it when they go together.”So I knew I wanted to find a different kind of provider. I started looking around in my area and I found a midwife that would support a home birth. One of my first questions to her was, “Do you support VBACs?” She said, “Absolutely.” And she said it just like that. “Absolutely.” We had a wonderful conversation just talking me through how many VBACs she has been a part of through the years. A lot of my first visits were on the phone and everything was weird and everybody was working remote. I told her I was concerned because I had a couple of miscarriages and she was like, “No problem. We can be proactive and let’s monitor your blood levels.” During one of those first rounds of bloodwork, we found out about the little c antibodies. I almost immediately called her and I am like, “What is this? Does this mean I can’t have my home birth? Am I going to have to go back to the hospital?” Honestly, I was kind of freaking out and she said, “Listen. Let me do some homework and we are going to see what that means.”She decided that we wanted to make sure we were checking on this very well. So I drove-- I am down in Fort Myers. I drove up to Tampa General and that is about a 3-3.5 hour drive and I talked to a specialist. So she is a geneticist. I don’t know. She does stuff with blood work. So I sat down with this lady and she is going through it. The best way that I can describe what she was trying to tell me is, “Your blood cells have different facets on them kind of like a diamond. It’s similar to the Rh. Normally when we hear about blood stuff and a pregnant mama, it is that Rh factor. So that, we have heard of. That is fine, but this is a different part of that same cell, but a different facet.”It was very confusing to be quite honest. But she explained that when they test my blood, they are looking for those antibodies because my husband has an antigen. So he has got something on one of his blood cells that my blood cells don’t like and as a result, my body creates these antibodies to try to attack it and the really crazy thing is it’s almost exclusive to VBAC moms or second-time moms, but more commonly VBAC moms because when they were doing the incision, some of baby’s blood, some of my blood may have crossed over and that would cause my body to start reacting even way back five years ago when my first daughter was born. It was crazy. Just the thought that that’s been in my body this whole time and I didn’t know about it. So that was kind of cool but kind of scary.She said that the levels that they found were very low. And it’s just-- you know, “you have got a very low level of this kind of antibody that is freaking out on your baby, so we are going to keep an eye on it and as your pregnancy progresses, if it starts to rise, if that level starts to get more concentrated in your blood, then we are going to have to have a deeper discussion about getting baby out sooner and maybe not going to full-term. Are we going to have to have baby before 40 weeks? I don’t know. We will keep an eye on it.” That sort of thing.So every time I went to a visit with my midwife, we had to do a blood draw. It was annoying, but ultimately, throughout my entire pregnancy, that level never changed for me. So thankfully it wasn’t anything that I had to really do anything about, but it was always that little worry in the back of my mind. It was just frustrating because I had such an uneventful pregnancy before and I just wanted that again especially in the middle of a pandemic. Everything is freaking out in the world, why can’t I just have an easy pregnancy? Then, we go in for the midway through ultrasound. I went back up to Tampa General. My wife here recommended it because she always says, “If there’s anything to find, they’re really good. They are going to be the ones to catch it.” Tampa General is one of the best hospitals in the state and their maternal-fetal medicine is top-notch, so I felt good about going up there. I’ve got family up there anyway, so we just made a visit out of it. While we were there for the ultrasound, obviously, I have to go in by myself because COVID. And so, my poor husband is out in the parking lot with the one bar of Wi-Fi signal trying to do a Zoom meeting with me to be able to see or hear anything. He’s got a few minutes to see or talk to me and then they had a rule about how we can’t record and we can’t have the phone or a video through the whole visit. It was kind of crazy.So for the most part, I am in there by myself. I am trying to communicate with my husband on a weird connection and it was frustrating. But anyway, so during the first 20-week ultrasound, they go, “Well, we are looking and we are not seeing that other kidney on baby,” and I go, “Okay.” The doctor was very reassuring and he said, “Well, it could be in a weird spot. It could be that we are just not seeing it because baby is in a weird position, so we are going to have you come back in a month.” I was, again, just frustrated because we are in this crazy thing and just-- really? Why me? Why my baby? Why all the stuff? So we made plans to come back in a month. But I definitely know at that point I needed two things. Number one, I needed to check in with my mental health counselor. She specializes in mom stuff, birth-related things, mom-related things. She is awesome. And so, I was able to talk to her and talk through some of the things that were going on. And then number two, I knew that I needed a doula. Why on earth I waited so long, I have no idea, but I did find my doula around the 20-week mark. She was able to start checking in with me every week because I knew that if I was going into a birth that potentially had any kind of complications, I needed all the support that I could get. I followed up with them as much as I could as much as I needed to and tried to identify in myself if I felt like I was stressing out too much or if I was letting things overtake my mind too much just to know to check in with my doula, check in with my counselor, and I think that made a big difference trying to manage things throughout pregnancy. We even got a plan in place so if we did have to transfer to a hospital, having a backpack that I could keep in my closet. We talked about, “If it is in your closet, you don’t even have to look at it, but that piece in the back of your mind that knows it is there will feel good about that and you won’t be so stressed.” I am very glad that I did that. It really helped and I was able to have that calm reassurance. So as I am going through, I get to the end of pregnancy. We are still monitoring this little c blood thing, and we still can’t find a kidney on baby, and on top of that, now I am measuring ahead. At 36 weeks, I was measuring around 42 or 43 weeks, so I went on a low-carb, low-sugar diet. It may have been before 36 weeks. It felt like a lifetime of no sugar and no carbs. When you’re pregnant, all you want is pizza and you can’t have it and props to all the mamas that do have gestational diabetes because that is so hard and thankfully, I didn’t have gestational diabetes. I just had to eat like I did. Baby kept growing and growing and growing, and we were worried that if baby was going to be too big if there was going to be a sugar thing on top of everything else, that could be a problem. We wanted to make sure that the fluid levels in my uterus were good because that could mean that the kidney is working or not working depending upon what’s going on there. So my midwife and I really started having some conversations about, “Do we want to go past that due date?” Legally, it’s maybe measuring a certain size, like in the state of Florida if the baby is too big, she is not able to do a home birth for me. So I was freaking out, calling my therapist, doing all of the things. I spent the week of Thanksgiving in acupuncture, pumping, doing my Spinning Babies®, walking the curb, doing the whole list of things. I must have spent at least a good hour of my pregnancy upside down on my couch, I think.Meagan: Oh my gosh. How much did the baby have to measure up before they disqualified you? Do you remember?Sarah: I don’t remember. I want to say it was 10 pounds.Meagan: Wow.Sarah: But I think that’s if they measured on an ultrasound and she tries to do as few ultrasounds as she can because she very firmly believes your body is not going to make a baby that is too big for you, you know?Meagan: Yeah, Mhmm.Sarah: She supported me as much as she could, but because we had to monitor all of these other things, it was like, “Oh great. Now, we are finding out too much.”Meagan: I know, yeah.Sarah: Yeah. So Thanksgiving, we are doing all the things. That put me at 39 weeks. We had talked about doing the famous midwives brew. I took that on, I think it was Monday night of that first week after Thanksgiving and I started having contractions, getting all excited, and then everything completely fizzled out. I was like, “No!” But at least my body was doing something which felt good because before, with my older daughter, we went two weeks beyond. Nothing was happening. I thought I was going to be pregnant forever. You know, all that stuff. So I was like, “All right. Well, at least my body is gearing up for something.” Later that week, I started noticing I was leaking a little bit and I wasn’t, you know, is it pee? Is it amniotic fluid? The world may never know, but thankfully, my midwife has a way to find out with that little stick thing. And so, she was like, “Check the stick. See if it is amniotic fluid. We talked about doing a lift and tuck. Apparently, in addition to everything else, I have a weird-shaped uterus that has a forward tilt which is probably why my first daughter was in such a terrible position, and I had back labor because she wasn’t able to move into a good position. But I know that now. So one more chiropractor visit, one more visit to the acupuncturist, and the midwife said, “Let’s see what is going on, but if you have more leaking, let me know.” That was Thursday. Yeah. So Thursday, I had my visit with my midwife. We talked about all of that and then that night, I had a little bit more leaking and she said, “Okay. Is it a little? Is it a lot?” I was like, “It is just a little.” And she goes, “Okay. We are going to have you try the brew one more time. Definitely call me because now that we have confirmed that your waters have started rupturing, we are on a time clock in terms of having the best chance for a VBAC. We don’t want to have a long leak and drain out all the fluid, and then get you into a bad spot where baby can’t maneuver.” So we did our last-minute chores, made sure my daughter had a bag packed. I went to bed as soon as I could. That night, around 11:30 or so, I woke up with contractions. I’m excited, trying to stay calm, use the bathroom, got my heating pad out. I was trying really hard to hold off on all of my pain management stuff just because before, I didn’t have anything and now I didn’t want to waste it all at the very beginning because I had a 30-hour labor the first time around and that’s what I was gearing up for. My brain was telling me, “You are going to have a 30-hour labor. It’s going to be long. Hold off as long as you can.” So I went back to sleep and I woke up a few hours later, around 2:00, and I felt a pop and a gush. My water definitely had broken. That was weird because I didn’t have that the first time. Like I said, the doctor broke my water the first time around. So I was like, “All right. I’ve got to clean this up.” I’m trying to let my husband sleep and be quiet, but I am stumbling around because I’m having contractions and it is dark. I’m tripping on things. And so, I get to the bathroom and I’m trying to get settled, and then I’m like, “Oh yeah, the lift and tuck.” So I am having to lift on my belly and tuck my pelvis through every contraction. Normally, I think they recommend that you have someone else do that. It is very uncomfortable. It hurts, but I knew after those conversations with my midwife after talking to my chiropractor, they were like, “This is going to be what you need to do to help.” So I had that in mind and I felt the minute she shifted, the second that she shifted into position. It was crazy. I am like, “Okay. Now we are going.” It was around that time that things really picked up and I yelled out to my husband, I am like, “Get up.” And so, he wakes up and he was fumbling around in the dark. I think he knocked something over. But he calls the doula and she was like, “All right. I am on my way.”And then, he called the midwife. Because my contractions were not, I think-- what is the formula? It is 4-1-1. So four minutes apart, one minute long, one minute-- I don’t remember. Whatever her thing was. It wasn’t quite to that point. She said, “Keep me posted, but we are going to observe her for a little longer and keep me posted. I’ve got my stuff ready. I can be on my way.” She’s on standby. So he is coming over and he’s like, “All right. You have to get out of the bathroom,” because our bathroom is this narrow tunnel. There is a wall on one side and I think I’m stuck on the other side. It’s just long, so no one could have gone behind me really well or anything. He was like, “You have got to get out of here,” and I was like, “I don’t want to.” So he is trying to push me out of the bathroom a little bit and I was able to crawl out in between contractions. I made it to the foot of our bed and I just camped out there. I was like, “This is as far as I can make it.” He was like, “You’re fine.”So then, my doula arrived. At this point, I have no clue what the actual timeline is, but I know she got there pretty quickly, my doula did. She starts helping put up the birth pool and get the hose set up. She’s checking on me and he’s checking on me. I remember she came in and she’s doing hip compressions and I’m trying to move around a little bit. I think mostly I was on all fours and I was just swaying my hips. I tried getting up where my forearms were resting on the bed and I am like, “Nope. I can’t do that.”I just was doing my best to keep on keeping on and using that low breath, or the low “ahhhh”-- the voice thing that they tell you to do. That was super helpful because just doing that, I knew-- and after taking, because I took three classes all in all. I did The VBAC Link course, I did another one with Mamastefit. She was on here at some point, I think, last year and she was talking about the physiology of birth. Her class is really good.Meagan: Mhmm. We love Gina. We love her.Julie: Yes. We love her.Sarah: Gina, her stuff is really good. Anybody who wants to know the physiology of what your body is doing, her course really nails that. And then, I did another course in-person with my doula service. Theirs was Birthing From Within based. She talked about the vocalizations, and movements, and things like that, but one of the things that really stuck with me was contractions are going to be a minute. It’s not going to be five minutes. It’s not going to be ten minutes. You can get through a minute. You can do that. We practiced holding the ice in your hand for a minute. Being able to practice that and having it in my head was so realistic. I think it really helped me mentally as I’m in the moment trying to go through. I remember I was trying so hard to talk to my doula because I don’t think I wanted her-- she was rubbing my back or something and I don’t even think I could tell her, “I don’t like that.” I was so in the zone. At one point, I did manage to tell her, “I feel like pushing.” I was so scared because, with my daughter, my oldest, I felt like pushing, but I was not anywhere near ready to push which apparently, again, was a sign of being in the wrong position. I was scared that that was happening again.She said, “Okay. Well, where is the midwife? Hubby was like, “She told me to follow up and that was an hour ago.” So we call the midwife, she’s on the phone, and then in the middle of that phone call, I go, “I think there is something in between my legs.” Tara, my doula, Tara comes over and she goes, “Yep. There is baby’s head.”Julie: Oh my gosh!Meagan: Oh my heck!Sarah: Yeah.Julie: What?!Sarah: And so, I am like, “Okay.” She puts the midwife on speakerphone. My midwife is literally in her van coming my way and she goes, “Okay, so what is Sarah doing? What position is she in? What do you see?” And so, my doula takes over as the unofficial person in charge. I remember my husband telling me later, he was like, “I wanted to catch the baby, but Tara said ‘No.’”Meagan: Oh really?Sarah: Because she has been to several births. She ended up-- I think two weeks before that, one of the other moms that she supported, the same thing happened where the baby was born before the same midwife got there, so she caught that baby too.Meagan: Oh my gosh.Julie: Oh my gosh.Sarah: She is amazing. I love her. She’s just an amazing person and she took over so well. But she comes over and my husband at least thought to turn on his camera on his phone so we have this very dark video, but she coached me through it. I hear my midwife on the phone going, “All right. She can push.” And so then, Tara’s like, “Well, push, push, push, push and my baby shot out like a little torpedo. She was so fast. Her hand was up by her face, so I had an unassisted VBAC, HBAC because I was at home, with a nuchal hand. I just roared her out like a fierce lion mama. It was great. I remember the first thing I said was, “I eff-ing did it.”Julie: That is awesome. Sarah: The feeling of such relief after so much worry, and so much planning, and so much, just all of it coming to fruition in this weird moment at 5:30 in the morning and my poor midwife wasn’t even there. There she was. I turned around and I started to look at her and I go, “Wait. What is it? It’s a girl!” And so, I got to be the one this time to say that she was a girl and that was so important to me, but I didn’t know it was until that moment. You know?Julie: Yeah. Aww.Meagan: I love it.Sarah: Yeah. After that, they tried to get me up on the bed and we are trying to get my placenta out. It kind of got stuck. So my midwife is trying to tell my doula, “All right. Give her some traction. Let’s try nipple stimulation. What’s going on here?” I was losing a lot of blood. It was probably 45 minutes later, so I had lost a significant amount of blood. I have a couple of pictures of me and baby and I am looking pasty in those pictures. When my midwife got there, she started going to work really quickly and she had her team. It was like a whirlwind of people doing stuff. It was awesome. I know at one point they were trying to figure out where they could hang an IV bag and I’m like, “There is a hanger right there and there’s a flashlight behind the TV.” Like, I am directing things that are happening in my house. How I was so with it, I have no idea. They quickly decided that I needed some more support than they could give just because of how much time had passed, so they did end up calling an ambulance which, prior to all of the prep work that I had done with my therapist, I will tell you that that very well would have given me some major anxiety attack before. But I was able to roll with it. EMS got me up, got me downstairs, got me outside. They asked me questions. I somehow remembered my husband‘s telephone number at some point during all of that which I don’t think I know that right now. So the fact that I knew that after I had lost half my blood volume was kind of a miracle. The hospital did have to go in and manually remove my placenta which was awful. I think that was worse than giving birth. I remember in all of that, I looked over at a nurse and I said, “I need you to tell me what’s going on because that’s going to keep me calm.” The fact that I was with it enough to be able to ask for that was pretty cool, but the fact that I knew that I needed that, again, because of all the prep work that I had done with my therapist mentally and emotionally. Knowing that I had somebody that could walk me through what was going on just helped so incredibly much. They got me patched up. They got some blood in me and I was able to tell them, “Hey, I have this little c thing. You might want to know about that when you are matching my blood type.” The doctor was able to verify all of that with my medical records and make sure that I got the most specified blood for my needs to help me get back up to speed. So that was really cool because I knew that having that information and being able to provide that to the doctor on a whim, I know that made a difference in me being able to recover quickly because it was just going to help. You know? Whether it made a huge difference physically to me, I don’t know, but I think mentally it was like, “I am empowered and I have information about my body and about myself.” That was cool.So, second-degree tear. Three units of blood. I stayed at the hospital for a few days. But she came like a little whirlwind and she is the coolest kid let me tell ya.Homebirth midwivesJulie: I love that so much. There are so many things I want to highlight in your story besides the cool little c antibody educational piece. But I want to speak a little bit about home birth because people are afraid of home birth. It’s definitely not for everybody, but there’s a misunderstanding that midwives don’t have as much medical knowledge and there’s a higher chance that your baby will die, or you will die, or hemorrhage like in your case, right? You were hemorrhaging and I just want you to know that as a doula, and it sounds like your midwife and doula did the same thing, but as a doula, I have seen home birth transfers. These midwives that have attended hundreds and hundreds, and sometimes thousands of home births, are very in tune, and very on point, and very, very particular about all of the details around birth. It was really funny because when you were telling your story with the nuchal hand and then after birth, you were losing a lot of blood and they called the ambulance and everything, I attended a birth just like that, except the midwife got there before the baby was born, a couple of years ago. It wasn’t even two or three minutes after the baby was born, the midwife was like, “Let’s get EMS on the phone.” She was putting pressure inside and outside of the mom’s uterus to stop the bleeding and then the ambulance got there. I was arranging for her son to go another way and then her husband was arranging things. It was just so seamless, and the midwife was so calm, and we transferred care. It was the same thing. The doctor had to go inside and manually remove the placenta, and then she had to have two D&Cs, actually two more in the coming weeks to get the rest of her placenta out. I guess the best way to describe it from my point of view is beautiful chaos. It was an emergency, but man, this midwife was just so skilled and trained. They don’t take chances. They are highly educated. They have, depending on if they are a CPM, a Certified Professional Midwife, or a licensed midwife, and you can be both in some states, they carry the same drugs like Methergine and Pitocin to stop bleeding. They carry antibiotics to administer if you are GBS positive. They have IV fluids that they can do. They are so trained and skilled that if an emergency happens, they are going to be able to transfer your care to the hospital. They’re going to know the things that they need to do to help you before you get to the hospital. Guess what else? There’s this really cool system, I forget what the acronym is, but as a student midwife, I am familiar with all these things. But there’s this information database where midwives can share their information with the hospital they are transferring to while they are en route to the hospital. They’re on the phone with the hospital so that when you get there, the hospital is ready to receive you and they don’t have to ask any questions. They just pick up where the homebirth midwife left off. I think that’s just something that people don’t really realize happens. They think, “Oh my gosh. If there is an emergency, we are going to die when we’re at home.” Granted, in extremely rare cases, things like that do happen just like they happen in the hospital, but at no higher rate as far as maternal and infant death goes. So I think that’s really important to note. I wanted to spotlight that because, well, nobody wants a home birth transfer whether before or after the baby is born. When there are emergencies these homebirth midwives are amazing. They are amazing.Sarah: Yes. That was something that I had talked to her in-depth about before because I had such anxiety with the hospital. I remember at one point, I think it was when she came for my home check-up visit at however far along in the pregnancy and I said, “Hey. I am really nervous about if we have to transfer to the hospital, but I know that if I need to, I trust you on that. I am not going to ask to go to the hospital,” because I had asked when I was at the birth center with my oldest daughter. I transferred because I wanted to because I was having trouble and I wanted an epidural. So I wanted to make it clear to her to say, “If I’m going to transfer it is because I know that you need me to transfer.” I am putting that trust in her and she said all the same things that you just said. She was like, “Well, we have this and we have that, but if we need to transfer, I have that on speed dial,” kind of thing. I am sure no matter what state you’re in, there are all kinds of rules and regulations and whatnot, but just being able to trust your provider whether it is a home birth midwife or a doctor in a hospital. If you can trust the person that you are literally placing your life in their hands to have them make sure that you are okay, I think that’s key too.Julie: Yeah. I agree. I think most importantly is birthing with a provider In a location where you feel comfortable with and having the trust in them and having conversations like that with your midwife or your doctor whether you are in or out of the hospital. I think that those are all important conversations. Meagan, you have just been letting me ramble on over here. Do you want to jump in?Meagan: No. I am in agreeance with everything. Something for me is like, I really wanted a home birth, but my husband didn’t feel comfortable with the idea of home birth. I think that can be a hard thing too. The mom feels comfortable birthing at one place, but the partner doesn’t feel comfortable with them birthing at the other place. I think, sometimes, that can make it a hard situation, right? And so, I just loved so much that you didn’t-- one, that you didn’t have to feel that way, but even with my situation, in the end, we really just came down to it. I gave him all the education and facts on it and he was like, “Oh okay. Yeah. I think that would be fine.” And then after we had a VBAC, I had a similar situation. We didn’t find my blood.Sarah: Hmm.Meagan: Yeah. Neither externally nor internally, weirdly enough. But I lost half of my body’s blood after my birth. I passed out a couple of times. It was really interesting.Sarah: It’s a weird feeling.Meagan: It is a really strange feeling. I remember waking up, I am like, “Why am I on the floor again?” And everyone is like, “Well, it’s because you passed out again.” But even after all of that is said and done, my husband was like, “You know, if we are having another one,” which we are not, “I wouldn’t do it any other way and we would totally do it at home.” And so, it is just so interesting to see how that experience changed his perspective on where we birth, you know? So, I don’t know. I just love that you had an educated doula and that you had the midwife on the phone. I loved all of it. And you know what? I actually don’t think I knew that Cesarean moms were at higher risk for the c.Sarah: I think it’s just because there’s a higher chance of the blood passing through into-- cross-contamination they said.Meagan: Yeah, which totally makes sense.Sarah: Yeah. It can totally happen with a vaginal delivery as well if there is a tear or something like that, but it’s a lot more common for a—Meagan: -- a Cesarean.Sarah: Not that it is common, to begin with, let’s be real. I have a weird blood thing to go with my weird unicorn kid that only has one kidney, and my other weird unicorn kid that can’t hear well, and my husband who has weird blood. So, yeah. We’re a family of unicorns.Julie: Unique. You’re not weird. You’re unique. I like it.Sarah: Unicorns. I have two girls. There are unicorns everywhere.Julie: Oh yes. Yes, yes, yes.Sarah: Everywhere.Meagan: I love it.Julie: That is amazing. Well, wow. We are so grateful that you shared your story with us today. It was so fun to come full circle from our admin texting us. She was like, “Have you heard of little c?” I was like, “A little c? Is that like Big C?” But like, being kind of sarcastic because sometimes we hear some crazy things and she was like, “No, really. Little C antibodies?” And Meagan was like, “I’ve heard of Big C.” I was major impressed with Meagan because I hadn’t even heard of that. And so, it was just so fun to have that conversation in our memory and then have you come on the podcast and share. Yeah. It was just really neat to have you. Thank you so much.Meagan: Yes.Sarah: Definitely. Hopefully, if there’s another mom out there that has something like that, she’ll feel less alone.Julie: Yes. We are putting it in our title so that if anyone searches for it, they will find it.Sarah: There we go. Perfect.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“It’s not that birth is painful. It’s that women are strong.”Due to her bicornuate uterus, Jess was told that she could only ever have Cesarean births. When her first birth experience involved a rough surgery and brutal recovery, Jess was tempted to wonder if she even wanted to get pregnant again in the future. Then, she made a choice. Jess decided to trust in her intuition, in a supportive birth team, and in the natural process of birth. She chose to believe in her body and chose to take a risk. Jess’ VBAC story is fast, furious, and magical. She found the mental strength to fully commit and the physical strength to achieve the unmedicated VBAC she was told she’d never have. Jess is truly a woman of strength and so are you. Additional linksThe VBAC Link Facebook CommunityHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsJessandBabe YouTube ChannelFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar and to eliminate false starts and filler words. Julie: Welcome, welcome. This is The VBAC Link podcast and we are really excited to be here with you today. I feel like it’s been a while since we have been recording. I guess it hasn’t really been that long, but it just feels like a long time since we have been talking to people. We have a really fun guest with us today. Her name is Jess. She is a full-time mom. She has two girls and she has a bicornuate-- however you say it-- uterus where it’s a heart-shape, right?Jess: Mhmm, yep.Julie: That can sometimes cause problems conceiving. It can cause problems with baby’s positioning. She has a really, really cool story about her VBAC with a heart-shaped uterus. I am just not going to try and pronounce it anymore. But I am really excited to talk with Jess today because we actually had her scheduled to record a couple of weeks ago, but they had an ice storm. She lives in Oregon and they had an ice storm in Oregon that shut down power and internet for days. At that time, we hadn’t had any more recording sessions planned, but then all of a sudden we decided to open this huge day. We are recording a ton of podcasts today and Jess, you are our very first one. We are so excited that you are not iced in anymore--Jess: Me too.Julie: -- and that your power is back on and you can share your story with us. But before we do that, as always, we have a Review of the Week and Meagan is going to read that for us.Review of the WeekMeagan: Thank you. Okay. So this is a review that is actually from a listener from Ireland which is super awesome. The title is, “So informative.” It says, “Hoping to have a VBAC in July. Listening to all the podcast episodes in preparation for my VBAC. Really positive and informative. I feel the more stories I hear, the more prepared I am for every eventuality. Fingers crossed. Thank you, Julie and Meagan.”And that was in May of last year, so I am assuming she has had her baby by now. So, “duffipe”Julie: Duffy-pee, duffy-pay, duh-fee-pay?Meagan: I don’t know, yeah.Jess: I like duh-fee-pay.Meagan: Yes. If you are still listening, we would love you to message us and let us know how things are going and how things went.Julie: I feel like if people tell us in their review that they are pregnant, they need to put their name so we can go and stalk them in our Facebook community because I just don’t like not having closure for these types of things. I can’t handle it.Meagan: Yeah. I know, right? I know. Okay well, I’m going to turn the time back over to you, Julie, so we can hear this awesome story from Jess.Jess’s storyJulie: Awesome story. Okay. Jess, Jess, Jess. I am so excited. Let me just tell you guys a little bit about Jess. She came on here and she was so happy and so smiley, and her voice is just-- as soon as she started talking, I started smiling. I don’t think I’m going to stop smiling this whole entire episode. I think my cheeks will hurt by the end. She just is so fun and so cute. She is going to tell her stories about her Cesarean and then her magical, unmedicated VBAC. So Jess, without further ado, I’m just going to go ahead and turn it over to you.Jess: Okay. So my first pregnancy, I actually had a really smooth pregnancy. Very uneventful. The only thing was that after one of my earlier ultrasounds, we had found out that I had a bicornuate uterus. The midwife that I was seeing at the time, her main concern was me either not being able to carry to term and that there was always a chance that I could miscarry. Obviously, it freaked me out the beginning, but honestly, after taking some time to think about it, I just knew deep down that I was meant to have a baby and that everything was going to be okay.The midwife that I started off with only saw women up until we were about 20 weeks and then we automatically got transferred over to a different practice that was with a group of midwives. I think there were probably about five or six midwives that were working there at the time and whenever I transferred over there, they didn’t really seem that concerned about me having a bicornuate uterus. They said that there wasn’t any reason why I shouldn’t be able to deliver vaginally. We will just keep an eye on it and everything should be okay. So I took their word for it and I didn’t think anything of it. Throughout my entire pregnancy, I had this really hard bulge up on the right-hand side of my ribcage. Every time that I went in, we would see a different midwife. It was very rare that we would see the same one back-to-back, so every midwife that we saw would check the baby’s position manually. Every single one told me that baby felt head down and that everything was great, and I had nothing to worry about. Again, I didn’t have any reason to disagree with them. You know, first-time mom, I didn’t know. I didn’t know what it felt like at all. So we got up to our 38-week appointment and my husband had come with me that day. We were curious about belly mapping. We were chatting with the midwife about belly mapping and wanted to know how to do it and all that stuff because we were super interested in it. And so, the midwife checked my belly again. She feels that hard spot that has been there the entire time and she goes, “You know, I’m pretty sure that that is the baby’s bum, but it’s a really slow day today in the office. We have a portable ultrasound machine. Let me go and grab that real quick. We will take a look and see where baby is hanging out.”Gabe and I were obviously super excited because we hadn’t been able to see her since our anatomy scan. And so, she came in, and as soon as she put that doppler on the hard spot on my stomach, you could see on the screen the outline of a perfectly round head. Right whenever she saw that, the mood in the room definitely took a shift. Things got very serious very quickly and she was like, “Oh, okay. So that is definitely the baby’s head.” Immediately she was like, “Okay. We are going to send you in for an official ultrasound tomorrow to get it confirmed. If it is, then you’re going to have a scheduled C-section next week.”Honestly, as a first-time mom hearing that I was going to be having a C-section, I do have to say that in a way I did feel a little bit of relief at the time because I, you know, first-time mom, I didn’t know how to deliver vaginally. You can take all the birthing classes you want and I personally still didn’t feel prepared. And so, just knowing that a C-section I would know exactly the time, day, when, and how-- all of that stuff was going to be covered. That, in a way, brought a sense of relief. But anyway, we went in. We got the ultrasound. I don’t know if there is a specific name, but she was definitely breech. She was on the right-hand side of my uterus since I have the septum going down the middle. Her feet-- she was completely bent in half, basically. Her feet were all the way up to her back behind her head. So she had no room at all. There always was the option of having an inversion, but because I had a bicornuate uterus, they weren’t willing to even attempt it because they said that it would put too much stress on me and the baby. Obviously, I didn’t want to do anything that would put either of us at risk, so we ended up having a C-section the following week.The C-section itself was not the smoothest. It was actually a very rough procedure. I got a spinal block and I had to end up getting two because the first one didn’t work. The babe was actually stuck up at my ribcage, so my incision ended up having to be twice as long, so that way the surgeon could reach his hand up there to wiggle his finger into baby’s mouth to pull her head down a certain way in order to get her to be delivered.So because of that, she came out with a bruised tongue, really tight TMJ muscles and she was not breathing whenever she came out. Immediately, she was taken over to the warming cart. Nobody was talking. It was pure silence. There were probably about five or six nurses that were over there trying to get her going and at that point, I didn’t feel very good. I was, obviously, still laying flat on my back and I just wasn’t feeling very well. I didn’t trust myself to have her on my chest and to do the immediate skin-to-skin because I didn’t want to drop her, so she actually got to have the first skin-to-skin moment with Gabe. I am very grateful and very glad that they were able to have that special moment, but I do think that looking back, that is one of my biggest regrets is not doing the immediate skin-to-skin because the connection just wasn’t there. The connection wasn’t as immediate as I thought it would be. I wasn’t able to hold her until we got back into our room, which, I don’t know how long it was-- maybe a half an hour or so after she was born. It just lead to a whole bunch of other tough stuff. I had a really tough recovery. We had a horrible time breastfeeding. I had a really hard time with the connection and a couple of times in specific while we were there. This all happened while I was still numb from the surgery. I hadn’t even gotten up and taken my first steps yet, but I had the surgeon and a couple of other doctors come in and tell me that I am always going to be a C-section mom. There is no other way around it. One of the baby’s pediatricians came in and told me that if I ever wanted to have kids again, I would have to have surgery to have the septum removed from my bicornuate uterus, or else I would miscarry.Meagan: Whoa. That’s heavy.Jess: Yeah. So, yeah. That definitely left a sour taste in my mouth. In the end, I ended up struggling really hard with some pretty severe postpartum anxiety, and depression, and mom rage, and all that stuff. But, yeah. That’s basically how the first baby got here. So then moving onto my second one, by the time that I had gotten done with my recovery with the first baby, I still had the thoughts in the back of my head of always being a C-section mom and remembering how hard both mentally and physically the recovery was. There honestly was a really short time where I didn’t know if I wanted to have more kids because I just didn’t think that I could go through that recovery again.And so, I ended up getting pregnant with my second shortly after my first’s first birthday. I didn’t decide that I wanted to shoot for a VBAC until I was about 20-some weeks of my pregnancy. The practice that I delivered with, the midwife clinic, they were all very VBAC-friendly. They were the ones that kept bringing it up and saying, “Hey, do you want to try and have a VBAC? You’re a really good candidate. I think you would have a success,” and all of that. I was the one that was on the fence because I had it in the back of my mind that I couldn’t deliver vaginally because of my uterus, and just that my body was broken and that I wasn’t able to do this vaginally.So one of the main driving factors for me wanting to try and have a VBAC was because I remembered how difficult the recovery was and I just kept thinking to myself, if I had that hard of a recovery with just a baby, I couldn’t even imagine having to do it again with a newborn and a not even two-year-old at home. That was the main reason why I wanted to try and have a VBAC. Once I made the decision to have the VBAC, I dove in headfirst and did absolutely everything under the sun that I could to prepare. First and foremost, I found this amazing podcast, The VBAC Link, and I took your Parent’s Prep VBAC Course which I cannot recommend enough.Julie: Holla. Shoutout to the course.Jess: Yeah. If I had to recommend anything to anyone that wanted to try and have a VBAC, it would definitely be to listen to this podcast and take the class because like I said, I am the type of person where the more prepared and everything that I can be, the better for me. Literally, everything that I needed to know about how to have a VBAC, and all the medical terminology, and the statistics, and all that stuff was literally in that book. All the questions that I ever had were answered. So I did that. I started doing the Spinning Babies® daily essential stretches video every day. I was going on walks. I decided to do HypnoBirthing as my form of, I don’t know what you call it, but the way to cope through the contractions I guess I should say. Because one of the things that I had learned in your class was to go as long as I could without having any sort of medical intervention, that being an epidural.So those are all of the things that I did. There actually was one short moment whenever I thought that the baby was going to be head up again. I went in and I requested a couple of ultrasounds because I had to actually tell them, “This is what happened to me last time. I do not want it to happen again and I need to have some ultrasounds so that where we can clearly confirm that baby is in the right position.”Baby thankfully was in the right position. There was one midwife there that I really enjoyed. And she-- I don’t even know what it was called, but if I had to describe it, it was the perfect line between chiropractic care and prenatal massage where she would go through from head to toe and she would feel all up and down my body, baby included, to feel any points of tension in my body, and then she would hold just the slightest bit of pressure until the tension naturally released. I just knew that was another thing that was going to help my VBAC success because my body was in alignment, which meant that the baby was going to have an easier time getting into the proper position.As I got further along in my pregnancy, at the time were they start doing the checks to see how far you are dilated, I chose not to get checked very often. I think I only ended up getting checked twice throughout my entire pregnancy and it wasn’t because they wanted me to get checked, it was just out of pure curiosity. I wanted to see what was going on and if my body was doing anything yet. The first time that I got checked, I can’t even remember how far along I was in my pregnancy at this point, but I was already dilated to a 1. Now, I was super excited to be dilated to a 1 because with my first baby, I remember as part of the pre-op stuff, I had to get checked. I was 38.5 weeks and I was all zeros across-the-board. So the fact that I was already at 1, I thought that was a huge accomplishment for me because I knew that my body was actually doing what it was literally made to do.The midwife that I was seeing that day in particular, I didn’t exactly vibe with that much. She was nice, but she wasn’t my favorite and she didn’t seem to think that being dilated to a 1 was good enough. She thought that at this point, that my body should have been progressed more and that’s when she had started pushing more of doing all the things like the evening primrose oil, eating the dates, doing all the things to your body to get it ready for birth before your body is actually ready. And then, she just really got into my head. She started saying how if I didn’t do this stuff that they don’t do the Foley bulb, so that’s not an option. If I wanted a Foley bulb, I would have to transfer to a completely different hospital an hour away. She jumped off the deep end a little bit and I’ve got to say, she really got into my head. After I went home, cried to Gabe a little bit, I pulled myself together and I advocated for myself. I called the midwife clinic and I said, “I need to schedule out the rest of my appointments and I cannot see that midwife,” because I just knew that mentally, I didn’t need to have that negative energy in my space as I was preparing for birth.I did not do any of the induction techniques. I didn’t eat the dates. I didn’t take the evening primrose oil. I didn’t get membrane sweeps. I didn’t do any of that. I just completely and fully sat back, relaxed, trusted in my body, and knew that whenever it was ready to deliver this baby, that it would do what it was meant to do. That’s what actually happened.So the day that I actually went into labor, it was July 29th at 5:00 in the morning. My husband had just gotten home from work. He got stuck at work late, so he had only been asleep-- it was maybe only half an hour. I remember I was sleeping and I got woken up by some really light, deep cramps. My eyes shot open and I remember thinking, “My midwife said that this would happen whenever I was going into labor,” but it wasn’t super intense. I brushed it off and I went back to sleep because I was like, “Oh, it is probably just round ligament pain. I’m only 39 and 1 day. This isn’t happening. Not even five minutes later, I felt this really faint pop. It’s so hard to describe, but it’s almost like a water balloon inside of you is popping. I was like, “Wow, okay. That’s weird. I’ve never felt anything like that before.” I was like, “Oh my gosh. My midwife said that if my water broke, that this is what it could feel like. So I woke Gabe up, who had just fallen asleep, and I was like, “I don’t know for certain, but I am pretty sure that something might be happening.” I walked to the bathroom to go and scope things out. As I am pulling down my pants to sit on the toilet, my waters fall out. I just stopped completely in my tracks and I am like, “Oh my gosh. My water just broke on its own. We are doing this thing.”I am texting Gabe back-and-forth from the bathroom being like, “Oh my gosh. My water broke. We need to call the midwife. We need to call my mom to come and stay with Audrey.” I was just going down all of the lists of things that I had to do because I just knew it was go time.So we called the midwife. She had wanted me to go ahead and get ready to come into the hospital because I had tested positive for-- I think, is it Group B? Something like that. She wanted to get medication started.Meagan: Yeah. Group B Strep.Jess: Yes. So I had tested positive for that and she wanted me to come in so that way we could get the medication started. But we ended up calling her back because I really wanted to labor at home for as long as I could so that way the chances of intervention were smaller. Thinking back, I don’t know why I thought I had more time than I actually did. But right off the bat, my contractions were probably 2 to 3 minutes apart, 30 seconds long and it was just back-to-back-to-back. I guess I thought that I had more time than I actually did because they weren’t as intense as I thought they would be yet. I was still able to shower and all of that stuff, and get my stuff ready, and talk, and breathe through them, and all that. I guess I thought that I had more time than I did. I definitely did not. It was a very close call.The contractions immediately got really intense and at this point, we are just waiting for my mom to come. She lives about half an hour away from us, so we are waiting for her to get to the house so she could stay with Audrey. By the time my mom had gotten-- I mean, she said that she could hear me. She was standing outside and she could hear me laboring in the bathroom. It was super intense and I don’t even remember looking at her or talking to her. I just passed by her to get into the car. I told Gabe, I was like, “We have got to get to the hospital. I don’t think we are going to make it.” So, I had a couple more contractions before I was able to get myself into the car. I was afraid to get into the car because I didn’t want to sit. Sitting was extremely, extremely uncomfortable for me. When I tell you that that was the longest car ride of my entire life, I cannot even tell you how hard of a car ride that was.Meagan: It’s hard to sit there.Jess: Oh my gosh. It was so hard. The hospital we were delivering at was half an hour away, so Gabe was booking it. I was contracting so, so hard, but thankfully we made it. The hospital that we delivered at is actually pretty small, so there are only two entrances. There is the maternity entrance and then there is an emergency room entrance, and it’s just on either side of the parking lot. So obviously, we had pulled into the maternity entrance. After we got out of the car and walked up to the door, we see that because of COVID, everyone has to check-in through the emergency room entrance. I was like, “Oh my gosh. This literally cannot be happening to me right now. Gabe was like, “Okay well, do you want to walk over there or do you want to get in the car and do you want to drive over there?” You can see the other entrance, like I said, from the door where we were standing and I was like, “I am not sitting down again. Let’s just walk.” Thinking of that, it would have been much faster if we just zoomed right over there really quick, but for whatever reason, I wanted to walk. I was laboring so, so hard throughout the entire parking lot. Whenever people say that whenever you are in the middle of delivering your baby that you go into a completely different world, that is 100% true. At that point, I didn’t care who saw me. I don’t care what I was doing. I didn’t care how loud I was. There were people walking out to their cars. There were nurses and doctors everywhere and I was just in the zone trying to breathe through these tough contractions. So of course with COVID, before we were actually able to go to the maternity entrance, we had to go through this checkpoint and questionnaire for all of this COVID screening. I had to get my temperature taken. I had to get a badge. I had to answer all of these questions. Again, while not even really being able to talk. The nurse was very persistent. I know everyone has got their job to do, but I was like, “Come on, lady. I’m about to pop this baby out right now. I can’t.”Anyway, after we got done with all of the questions she was like, “Okay. Do you want to walk or do you want to go in a wheelchair?” I was like, “I do not care. Just whatever gets me there faster.” I ended up sitting in the wheelchair. Gabe pushed me and we sprinted down the really long hallway before we had to go through another checkpoint. They were like, “Are you the VBAC patient? Everyone is waiting for you.” At that point, after I heard that, I just felt a sense of relief like, “Okay. We are going to be okay. We are going to do this.” Because they were prepared for me and as soon as the big doors opened, my entire birth team was there. My midwife was there. The nurses, there were other doctors. Everybody was just there and they were waiting for me.Julie: Aw. That probably feels really good.Jess: Yeah. Yeah. I just-- I was like, “Okay. I’m not going to do this by myself. I am in good hands here.” As soon as I lay eyes on my midwife, the first words out of my mouth were, “I need an epidural.” She goes, “Okay,” super calm and collected. “Okay well, let’s go and get you back to your room. We will check and see how far along you are. Now, if you are pretty progressed, do you still want to have an epidural?”I was like, “I don’t know, but I have got to have something.” Giving birth is such an athletic event. It is so athletic. So at this point, I am so tired and I am sweating to death. I am like, “Holy crap. This is so much.” And so, we got into the room and there were so many people in that room. It was me, Gabe, the midwife, and there were honestly probably three other nurses and then eventually, I call him the epidural guy, the anesthesiologist. I don’t know. He was in there at one point. And so, I’m at the foot of my bed. I ripped off my pants. The midwife was already down behind me and she was checking and she goes, “Okay well, you are 8 centimeters dilated.” And I was like, “Okay.”So she is down behind me the entire time. I have another nurse who is in front of me who has a doppler on the tummy to keep an eye on baby. Gabe is sitting down in a chair being a great support for me, and then I am gripping onto the foot of the bed railing going through the contractions, and up in front of me are all of the nurses, plus the anesthesiologist, who are trying to get an IV in me and all that stuff in case I needed it. I was extremely dehydrated come to find out, so they had a very difficult time getting an IV started. I think I ended up getting poked probably, I don’t know, maybe eight times honestly. Every time they are like, “I am so sorry we have to do this. I am so sorry we have to do this.” In between contractions, I looked at them and I was like, “Literally, I do not care what you are doing to me right now because I don’t feel it.”Eventually, they got one started, but it took forever. The biggest thing that I was saying throughout the contractions was, “I feel like I am going to poop my pants. I feel like I’m going to poop,” and my midwife kept telling me, she’s like, “That’s good. That’s good. That means your baby is coming.” I was like, “Oh my gosh. I am literally about to poop myself right now. I can feel it.” She brought over a chair and I was still standing in front of the bed. She had me put one foot up on a chair. She checked again and she goes, “Okay. You are now a full 10, so baby is going to be here in just a second.” This was probably in the span of maybe half an hour.One of the things I remember is that I had a heart monitor, the finger heart monitor thing, on and I kept flicking it off my finger during contractions because I couldn’t fully grip onto the bed railings, so the nurse had to stick one on my pinky toe so that way she could keep an eye on me. After one of my last contractions, my midwife was telling me that she felt like I was clenching like I was holding my baby in a little bit. I was like, “Okay.” She was like, “How about next contraction, after that one is over, we have you crawl up on the bed on all fours and we will see if that helps?” I was like, “I don’t think I can crawl up on that bed right now. I don’t.” She is like, “It’s okay. We will bring the bed down. It will be easy peasy. You can just crawl right up.” So I crawled up on all fours.She was definitely coaching me. She was telling me how to breathe because obviously, I had to get very vocal throughout the contractions. She was telling me to really breathe and dig deep with the contractions and use the contractions as a way to push the baby out. I did that. I pushed one more time and out came the baby. It was the most magical, healing experience for me of my entire life. I was able to do the immediate skin-to-skin. We were able to do that delayed cord clamping. I actually cut the cord myself. I was able to see my placenta. It was just the most magical experience that I have ever had because I completely, 100% trusted my body to do what I knew it could do and it worked. So, yeah. Those are my stories.VBAC prep and planningMeagan: I love that. I love that you say, “I 100% trusted in my body and knew that I was able to do it,” because this is something that I even found so hard.Jess: Yeah.Meagan: Because I’d be like, “Okay. I know I can do it, but can I?”Jess: Exactly.Meagan: “Okay, no. I can. But really, can I?” You know? Even during the birth, I am like, “Wait. Okay. I can do this. I can keep going.”Jess: “Can I do this?” Yeah.Meagan: Unfortunately, I did not have a fast, intense experience. I had a slow, turtle-paced labor. There were times where I am like, “No. No,” and then my husband would look at me and be like, “Remember, this is what you wanted. You can do this.” I am like, “Oh yeah. Okay, okay, okay. I can do it.” You know? We have to believe in ourselves and even in the moments that we doubt, we have our teams. That’s why I think having a team is so important and I loved that when the big doors opened, your team was there and waiting for you because I truly can only imagine how that felt for you.Jess: Oh yeah. It was such a huge sigh of relief because like I said, I didn’t know what I was doing. I didn’t have a choice except to just work through it and I was like, “I need a professional here that actually knows what’s going on to help me.” So, yeah. It was great seeing them there.Meagan: I love that.Julie: How comforting. That part of your story warmed my heart so much. You get there. You’re in active labor. You are really excited. Your whole entire team welcomes you and then you’re 8 centimeters dilated. What a high to keep going on.Meagan: I know.Jess: I know. Gabe and I would go, “Oh my gosh. What if there was a car accident or r road work?” Or it was during the summer, so we’d always have a bunch of farming equipment on the road. We were like, “Oh my gosh. I would have had my baby in the car if we showed up a minute later.” It was just crazy.Meagan: Yup. Oh my gosh. I love it. Something I love too is how you said in the beginning, “My provider is like, ‘Yeah, you are a great candidate for a VBAC,’” and you were like, “No.” You weren’t super on board and you weren’t for it at that time. We find that that is the case sometimes. It’s okay when those cases stay the same or they’re like, “Yeah, no. VBAC just really isn’t for me.” But I think something that Julie and I like to encourage people to do is, educate yourself on both sides so you truly know what the best route is for you. If it is the VBAC, awesome. And if it’s not a VBAC and if it’s a CBAC, yes. Great. Do what’s best for you. So, I love that you found out your options, and then eventually you were like, “Oh, this is totally what I want to do,” and you went with it. Because it is. There is something to say when you feel empowered for making the choice for you. When you are being told, “Okay so, you always have to have a C-section and you’re going to have to have surgery,” that’s daunting and scary. You’re like, “Whoa. That’s overwhelming.”Jess: Yeah. For sure. For sure. Yeah. I think something that’s really important is just because you can have a VBAC doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s the best option for you. And same goals with a C-section. I think that every woman is different and it’s just important for you to take a step back, go through all of your options, like you said, and pick what’s best for you. That’s why I honestly, truly cannot thank your VBAC prep course enough because it laid out all of the options for me. I knew how to have a C-section for my first time and I felt way prepared and more after going through your VBAC prep course.Meagan: Yeah. I love it.Julie: Well, thank you so much. Yeah. That’s one of the things we go over in the course is-- I don’t know. I am going to mush our course and what I go over with my clients in our prenatal visits for my doula work. Have a plan A, a plan B, and a plan C. Plan A is your perfect plan. If everything goes the way you want, what does that look like? Plan B is your backup plan. So if you’re planning to go unmedicated, what if you need an epidural? What if you need to be induced? Things like that, your backup plan. And plan C is your Cesarean plan. So it’s really funny-- funny is probably not the right word, but it is interesting as I talk to people because I don’t make them create a Cesarean plan. We always have a backup plan, but I ask them, “If you need a Cesarean--” whether it’s first-time moms or birth after a Cesarean or whatever. “If you need a Cesarean, do you want to know what options are available for you, and do you want to have information about that?” Some people are like, “Oh no, no, no, no, no. I don’t want to say the C-word. I only want good vibes. We are only projecting vaginal birth. I feel like if I talk about it and create that, it’s setting myself up for a Cesarean.” For some people, I think that maybe they just don’t have the mental space to go there, but it’s probably a sign that you need to do some kind of processing work in order to get your mind in a better spot because when you fear something and then it happens to you, it makes a possibility of trauma way more likely. But having a backup Cesarean plan, like you said, if your birth ends up that way, you can enter into all the different changes of labor and birth with confidence because you already know about them. You don’t have to tell your doctor to explain the risks and benefits of things to you, which you should still do because maybe there is something you don’t know about. But learning about all of the different options can help you be more confident. As Meagan and I work with our doula clients and every one of you at The VBAC Link, that is the number one thing that people say they wish they had more of going into their VBAC. It’s confidence. Confidence in themselves, confidence in their provider, and confidence that they will know how to make the right decisions if something doesn’t go as expected.Jess: Yeah.Meagan: Mhmm.Jess: I think that’s why it shows that it takes just as much physical prep as it does mental prep because you can do everything that you can under the sun to prep your body physically for birth, but birth is such a mental game. If you don’t have the preparation that you need and you haven’t processed the things that you need, it can be difficult.Julie: Absolutely. That’s why we go over all of that in our course, too. In fact, we start out with the mental prep just because it’s probably the most important part. Entering the rest of the course with a free mind can really open you up to more learning. Now, Meagan and I were texting while you were talking and we are like, “Wait. Her voice sounds so familiar.”Meagan: Yeah. I was like, “I know her.”Julie: We know you.Meagan: Well, I was like, “I know her.” When you popped up, I was like, “I know her face.” And I am like, “Wait.” So then 10 minutes in, I am like, “Julie. This is the YouTube girl that shared about our course on YouTube.” She is like, “Oh my gosh.” So we are like, “Oh my heavens.” I just love you. I am like, “I know I know her face and her voice.” Julie is like, “Yeah, I know. I remember.”Julie: I am like, “I think it’s that girl that made the cute YouTube video.” But Jess, why don’t you tell people where to find your YouTube channel because I am pretty sure everyone should watch it because she talks all about all of the things that she did to prepare for her VBAC both mentally and emotionally and on the educational side. So, yeah. Share it with everybody because everyone needs to go and watch this video. It is so fun.Jess: Yeah so, my YouTube channel is called JessandBabe. It is all one word. I actually started it whenever I was postpartum with my first baby. Like I said, I got diagnosed with pretty bad mom rage and postpartum anxiety. I just found that creating videos that I wished I would have seen whenever I was postpartum would have helped me if that makes sense. I wanted to make the videos that I wish I would’ve seen. It was just a really great form of therapy I have to say, knowing that I am helping people. It’s not a huge YouTube channel yet by any means. It’s very small, but I know that the videos that I make are helping people. I talk about all things. The VBAC video is the one that I just recently had posted, but I’ve talked about sleep training, breastfeeding, we have got some vlogs if you want to see my adorable babies and all of that stuff.Julie: Yeah. It’s so much fun. So much fun. Oh my gosh. I am so glad that we have come full circle. But you talked about coming full circle before we started recording about how you were listening to the podcast and you were like, “Oh my gosh. What if I could be on the podcast one day?” You are full circle here and I feel like we are full circle now because we saw your YouTube video, and now we get to hear your story again on The VBAC Link podcast, and everyone else is going to hear your story, and you are just so uplifting. You are a great light and you’re going to inspire so many women. It makes my heart so happy.Jess: Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Before I say goodbye, I have something to share that I think would actually fit your whole vision for The VBAC Link and everything. It’s actually a quote that I saw yesterday and it says, “It’s not that birth is painful. It’s that women are strong.”Julie: Yes.Meagan: Oh, I love that.Jess: I saw that and I was like, “I have got to share that tomorrow on The VBAC Link,” because that is exactly what you guys are sharing. I even had your “We are Women of Strength” card that came in your class. I had that set as my screensaver throughout my entire pregnancy.Julie: Awesome. Oh, I love it.Jess: I just thought it was fitting.Julie: That is really neat.Meagan: That makes me so happy.Jess: Yeah.Meagan: I just love you. We need to be friends when I come to Oregon someday.Jess: I would love to be your friend!Julie: Yes. Let’s be friends.Meagan: Oh my gosh. I know. I am like, “Can we go to Oregon just to come see you?” Oh my gosh. That would be so awesome.Julie: Oh my gosh. I just was really bummed because 2020 ruined plans for everybody, but we had these big plans. We were scheduled to go to three or four different cities in the country to teach in-person classes for parents and doulas.Jess: That would have been amazing.Julie: All of that got canceled because of COVID.Jess: Thanks COVID.Julie: I know. As soon as travel restrictions are more clear and we can have more people in a course at a time, then we are going to start traveling again. And Meagan, gosh. There are so many places that we need to go. How are we going to choose? There are so many amazing people, but I definitely think Oregon should be on our destination list.Meagan: Totally. I would love it. I have never been. I would love to go.Jess: You totally should. It’s great.Julie: Well, I hear it’s very beautiful. I got jealous from one of my friends posting pictures of going up there to the Pacific Northwest and I am thinking we need to make a little road trip up there. Or fly.Meagan: Back in the day when I did Worker’s Comp., I serviced Washington and Oregon. It was always so fun to talk to them about the weather and everything that was going on, so one day. One day I am going to make it back up there.Julie: One day. All right. Well, Jess. Thank you so much for sharing your story with everybody. We truly just absolutely adore you and are so grateful for you for sharing your story.Jess: Thank you.Julie: That YouTube video is so much fun and anyone that wants more information about our VBAC parents prep course, you can just go to thevbaclink.com/shop and it will have the course right there for you so you can take it. Get enrolled. Get educated so that you can safely and confidently navigate all the twists and turns birth might take.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Come listen, learn, and laugh with Meagan and Julie today in our ode to the cervix. We discuss the role of the cervix in birth, cervical checks, cervical changes, and how to navigate policies to make choices that are best for YOU. The cervix is an amazing, powerful muscle that we love talking about!Additional linksHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsAdvanced VBAC Doula Certification ProgramEmpowering Gynecologic Exams: Speculum Care Without StirrupsLenihan et al. (1984). ” Relationship of antepartum pelvic examinations to premature rupture of the membranes.” Obstetrics & Gynecology 63: 33-37Full transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar and to eliminate false starts and filler words. Meagan: Hey hey, this is Meagan and Julie. Today we have an episode with us. We don’t have a VBAC story today, but that’s okay. We are excited to be sharing an episode with us because we haven’t done one for a while and so we were like, “Oh, let’s get on and talk about the cervix.”This is something that obviously, the cervix has a big role in our deliveries, and so we want to talk about what it means, what it looks like, what it means if we are not dilating or if we are dilating, what it means to be checked during labor or before labor even begins, and all of the crazy things that we hear about these amazing cervixes of ours. Julie has a Review of the Week, and so we are going to turn the time over to her to read that, and then we will dive right in.Review of the WeekJulie: Yes, yes. So excited to do a whole episode all about the amazing cervix. I’m going to read a review that was just left a couple of weeks ago. Get a fresh new one in here. This is from Karen. Karen says, “Thank you,” is the title. Actually, this was an email. Oh my gosh! It’s not even a podcast review. I just read that it is an email that she sent us. So, Karen, we are going to read your email. This is really fun. Okay, so she says, “I have written this email in my head so many times in the past year. It has been a bit over a year since my little girl was born and I am still thinking about how helpful your podcast was. She was my eighth baby and was born by VBAC after two Cesareans. While I was blessed to have a very supportive doctor and birth team, something that would be more common in Canada where we are not dealing with insurance companies calling the shots--”That’s something to think about later when my mind will go off on a tangent.“I still feel like your podcast helped me to be informed about the benefits and risks of VBAC after two C-sections and empowered me to take an active role in the decision-making before and during labor and birth. I was induced and able to recognize and slow down the cascade of interventions that hospital staff assumed was going to happen. It helps to know my options for induction, a catheter, a Cook’s catheter instead of a Foley. Two balloons, so double the pressure—“Double the pressure, double the fun. That’s what just came to my mind. So, oh my gosh. Let me get back on track.“And after a while, a very slow and low Pitocin drip was the way we went. In the end, after a very calm labor with as little interference as possible, my sweet little daughter was born and I enjoyed the peaceful natural labor and birth, plus the easy recovery that I had been so hoping and praying for. My OB was so excited too. Thanks again for this wonderful work that you’re doing.”And thank you, Karen. That just touches our hearts and makes us so happy when we get reviews on our podcast, when we get emails, Instagram messages, Facebook messages. I am pretty sure we are really good at responding to all of them still. It might just take us a few days. So if you ever feel so inclined, we would love for you to reach out and tell us how we are helping you or things that we could do better to better help you and better serve you. That’s the whole reason why we created The VBAC Link-- to serve and help parents and birth workers just like you listening right now.Meagan: Yes.Julie: Yes. Another thing I wanted to talk about before we get into the magical cervix is our podcast sponsors. We have started implementing ads and sponsorships into our podcast and we have been really particular about who we invite into our space so that we make sure the sponsors that we are bringing onto our podcast will really benefit you and your family in whatever stage of parenthood, and birth, and pregnancy that you are in. Our sponsors allow us to keep bringing you this amazing podcast, so we really appreciate it when our listeners go and visit our podcast sponsor’s website and see if what they have to offer is a good fit for them. So, we want to thank you for checking out our podcast sponsors because, in the end, it all makes the world go around. We get podcast sponsors, and then when you support the sponsors, you are supporting us and allows us to keep bringing you this wonderful podcast. Right, Meagan?Meagan: Right. I love you. It’s like a little merry-go-round. Everyone is merry.Julie: Everyone is merry. I love it.Meagan: Oh my goodness. Okay, well we got a good laugh this morning. We are on podcast three of podcast five of the day. So, yeah. I think when this happens, we get a little bit more giggly. It’s just so funny.Julie: And we are not under the influence. I want to clear that up.Meagan: We are not.Julie: Except for maybe a little bit of caffeine here and there.Meagan: Wait, I thought you let caffeine go.Julie: Oh my gosh, I haven’t even told our podcast listeners yet. Yes. I have had to give up caffeine for health reasons that I won’t get into, but it makes me feel really, really old. But yeah, I have given up caffeine. I feel like I have lost my identity a little bit because I am the “always caffeinated computer geek”. That’s in my bio and now, I am not always caffeinated. I am really grumpy about it, but I have stopped caffeine six weeks ago. I started drinking homemade bone broth. Guys, I am making homemade bone broth.Meagan: Okay!Julie: I drink two to three cups of it every single day to help my gut health and overall health like that, but in line with that, I had to cut out caffeine. But now that it has been six weeks since I cut out caffeine completely, I occasionally allow myself a caffeinated beverage when I am feeling particularly stressed out because the caffeine really does calm me down and that’s because I have anxiety. So if you have anxiety, you can totally relate to what I’m saying. So, yeah. Just occasional caffeine.Meagan: Good for you. Good for you.Julie: I’m going to have to rewrite my bio. I am going to have to do that.Meagan: I know.Julie: Because now, I am just a “computer geek” and that’s not as exciting as an “always caffeinated computer geek”, right?Meagan: Yeah, no. You are a very exciting person.Julie: Oh, thanks.Cervical ChecksMeagan: We are so excited. This is actually something that Julie has been wanting to talk about for a long time and it’s the cervix. Let me just start off by saying a cervical exam is where-- just in case you don’t know. You might be a first-time mom listening, I don’t know. A cervical exam is where a skilled provider will insert their fingers into the vagina and check the cervix. When they are checking the cervix, what they are checking is how soft, how forward, how thin, and how much it opens, the cervix is. So right now, grab your lips and squeeze them together in a kissy face. Are you doing it? Are you doing it, Julie?Julie: Oh my gosh. Squeeze them together with my fingers? Like, squeeze them? People are going to think we’re nuts. If you are a first-time listener, I promise we are legit. Okay. I am grabbing my lips and squeezing them together.Meagan: This is what a midwife a long time ago told me. (Laughing) I am just laughing so hard, you guys.Julie: I am squishing my lips.Meagan: So if you squish your lips, not with your fingers. With your lips.Julie: Oh. Oh. (Laughing)Meagan: Like in a kissy face.Julie: Okay, okay. Starting over. Starting over. I am pursing my lips.Meagan: Mhmm. So if you feel that, now with your finger. Feel the tip. Can you feel how it is thick because of your lips? Maybe if you have thin lips, it’s thinner.Julie: I do kind of have thin lips.Meagan: But it’s kind of thick and harder. Does that make sense? Do you feel it? That’s kind of the way--Julie: I always say push on your forehead, and your nose, and your chin, and that kind of gives you the firmness of your cervix. On your forehead, it’s more firm. Your nose is a little softer and your chin is a little squishier.Meagan: Uh-huh. Yeah. I had a client that was texting their midwife and asking what they should be feeling for and it was that. She was like, “Pinch your lips together, like tight with your lips.”Julie: Like, pucker them?Meagan: Yep. Pucker them up like a kiss, tight, and then feel what that feels like with your finger. That’s what you are looking for if you are checking yourself. That’s why she suggested that. So anyway, that gets really hard and high. It might be far back and not open. It’s closed. It’s tight. You can’t get into your mouth.Anyway, the cervix can sometimes be like that, and then as labor becomes closer, it will start thinning, and opening, and softening. I love what Julie just said. Your forehead-- it’s hard. Your nose-- okay, it’s softer, still hard. And then, your lips. So that’s something that they are looking for. Now, in order to deliver-- I hate saying that all of the time. Rebecca Decker, you have got me. I love it. She has got me thinking all of the time. In order to give birth, you have to reach 10 centimeters, which means your cervix is all the way open and goes away.When a provider is checking a cervix, they are checking to see how dilated you are, how effaced you are, which means how thin you are, because that could be an indicator on how close you are to giving birth. However, it is not always. It is not always a great indicator and this is something that usually starts around 36 weeks. So when you reach 36 weeks, they typically will check for something called group B strep and then they will check the cervix. Julie is that when you-- I mean, you delivered early. It was before 36, but do you feel like at 36 weeks is typical for your clients? Like, “Oh, 36 weeks. I’m going to do my GBS test.”Julie: Yeah. They‘ll go in and they’ll be like, “Yeah, they are doing my GBS test. The doctor wants to do a cervical check. What should I say?”Meagan: “Should I do this?” Yes.Julie: Well, do you want to know what I always tell my clients? It’s scripted perfectly. I always tell them the risks and benefits, obviously, of a cervical check is a higher risk of introducing infection or bacteria into your vagina that is not already there, so it could increase your chance of infection. But what I say is that “If you decide to get a cervical check, it is a very personal choice. Nobody can decide for you, right? But if you decide to get a cervical check before labor starts, expect your cervix to be hard, closed, tight, and tilted backwards, and expect them to have to dig around for it, and it might be a little bit uncomfortable. If you go into your cervical check expecting that, your cervix is doing exactly what it needs to be doing at 36 weeks, which is keeping your baby in until it is time to deliver.” And then my clients always say, “Well then, what is the benefit of getting a cervical check if it is just to make sure my cervix is still closed and high?” And I’m like, “Well, exactly.”Meagan: Well, exactly.Julie: If you are concerned that you are in labor, or you are worried or whatever, then that might be something helpful. If you are 36 weeks and you’re dilated to 4 centimeters, that might be a problem, but also, I mean, there are some unique circumstances where it might be a normal thing, but the cervical check will only tell you what your cervix is doing at that exact moment in time. And at 36 weeks, and 37 weeks, and 38 weeks, and 39 weeks even, when you are getting cervical checks, expect it to be hard, low, closed, tight, and backwards.Even at 41 weeks sometimes, I have had clients going to get a cervical check. Their cervix is doing nothing. Their provider says that and then they get sad, and then emotions affect how labor starts, right?Meagan: Yes.Julie: But I have also had clients be completely low, closed, tight, hard, and then go into labor the next day and have their baby.Meagan: Exactly. That is something that I wanted to focus on is this is the crazy thing about cervical exams. One, they can be uncomfortable. They most likely will be especially if you’re a first-time mom and have never had any dilation, right? And if it is far back, then they are reaching back and around to try and check that cervix, so it is uncomfortable both physically and emotionally. And if you are a survivor of sexual abuse, or any trauma, or anything like that, it can be traumatizing and downright scary to have that happen because it is scary. It is scary.Julie: Yeah, triggering.Meagan: It is not someplace that you want people to be. Right? And so, to put yourself through that when you are potentially finding out really nothing that matters, then that is hard. I always tell my clients this when they ask me because it is a typical question, “Hey, I am 36 weeks. I am getting my GBS test today and they want to check my cervix. What would you do?” You know? I always tell people this, “A cervical exam means nothing, not even when you’re in labor because even when you are in labor, your body will tell you where you are at.” I have gone to home births where there has never been a cervical exam ever. I have never seen--Julie: Yeah. I didn’t have any with my last three births. My home births. I didn’t have any.Meagan: Yeah. I’ve seen it where this midwife never put her hands inside of this mom and she was like, “Oh, she is probably about this. Oh, she’s probably about this.” And then, the mom was ready to push and she was like, “Yep, okay.” This is following and trusting birth.So anyway, it doesn’t really mean much. I tell my clients, “If you feel you need to know, if it is going to hang over your head because you don’t know what you are, go ahead and get a cervical exam. But if it is something that is going to upset you when you hear a result that isn’t exactly what you are hoping, do not do it because it is not worth it.” Because like Julie just said, you can be high, closed, tight, posterior, and go into labor and be 10 centimeters in less than 24 hours later. Or guess what? You could be 6 centimeters for weeks. For weeks!Julie: Yeah, Meagan just had a client like that.Meagan: Yes I did. It was crazy.Julie: And do you know what though? On the other end of that too though, if you go and get a cervical check and they are like, “You are at 4 centimeters. Your body is going to have your baby soon,” and then it takes five days before you go into labor, that is equally just as discouraging.Meagan: Yes, absolutely.Julie: You’re like, “I am 4 centimeters. Why the heck is nothing happening now?” And guess what? Your mind can affect your hormones and prevent labor from starting when everything is all out of whack.Meagan: Mhmm, exactly. Yeah. And something else-- when I was preparing for my VBAC journey with Webster, I wasn’t even pregnant yet and starting my interviewing process of all the providers, and one of the providers that I spoke to said-- so, something I got was kidney stones when I was pregnant. I’m just one of those lucky people. It’s awesome. And my water breaks early on, so I have PROM, premature rupture of membranes. Not PPROM, just PROM. It breaks first before labor starts.Julie: Can kidney stones affect that? Does having kidney stones increase your chances of premature rupture of membranes?Meagan: So that’s what he was thinking. He was thinking--Julie: Interesting. I haven’t looked into that.Meagan: Yes. He said because my body-- I haven’t even looked into it since then. I just took his note and I was like, “Oh. That is something to note.” So my body was working to fight infection. So all the stuff on my kidneys, that weakened my amniotic sac, which, I have no idea, again. I have not found any proof. However, coincidentally enough with my first two, it was two days after a cervical exam that my water broke. And so, I just wondered--Julie: Oh yeah, because it does increase your chances of premature rupture of membranes.Meagan: Or infection, right? And so, anytime you put your hands in someone’s vagina, it increases infection of some sort. And so anyways, I was like, “Oh, I wonder. I wonder.” I don’t know. It was interesting to me, you know? So, yeah. It’s just-- it’s hard. Cervical checks can also be done for different reasons, not just to check if you are dilated or effaced, but it can check fetal positions. A provider can go in and be like, “Oh, yep. I am feeling an ear right here. We have got a transverse baby.” Or, “Oh, I am feeling the wrong occiput. We have got an OP baby.”Julie: But that’s not if you are low, hard, closed, and tight. That’s during labor.Meagan: Exactly. That’s usually if you are in labor, right? Yeah. That’s usually when you’re in labor. And even then, we can test with palpitations on the outside to figure, “Oh, I feel like we have got a back here,” or “I feel like they’ve got an OA baby.” Maybe baby’s looking transverse based off of a pattern or something like that, but it’s not necessary. It’s really not necessary and so, I just have to say that first of all. But I always tell my clients, “If it’s going to drive you crazy-- literally, if it’s going to drive you crazy because you have to know where you are at, then do it. That’s fine.” It’s not like it’s the end of the world to get a cervical exam either. You know?Julie: Yeah. I think that that’s just the most important thing is it can just be such a mental block and that’s why I chose not to be checked at all for my first VBAC. Obviously, you know I already have had home births and I chose not to get cervical checks at all because I knew if I was doing all that hard work and I was only 4 centimeters dilated, I would feel so defeated. I would. And I knew that because I knew myself. I knew my personality. I knew that I would not be able to reason with myself at all, even though I know cervixes can change in an instant and all of those things, but I know that it would totally mess with my mind.And so, I chose not to. I chose to just go with the natural progress of labor and like Maegan said, my midwife trusted in the natural processes of labor. Everything was progressing smoothly. There was no need for it, but if there was a cause for concern or if I was having some type of bleeding or, I don’t know, they saw a foot coming out or something, maybe a cervical check would have been necessary or beneficial. But as long as labor was going smoothly, I knew eventually a baby was going to come out and my body was going to start pushing. You can also tell by labor patterns, and how contractions are coming, and the space between contractions about baby positioning because typically, not always, but typically if there is a posterior baby or a baby whose head is a little bit turned sideways, or frontwards, or backwards, then the contractions will couple. They will be back to back, or there will be a lot of really intense contractions and then a long space without any contractions. It will be a really irregular contraction pattern and in that case, you can just do some positional work while you are in labor and usually get that position fixed. But again, sometimes that brings peace of mind like Meagan said. When you are in labor, if you want to know if you’re progressing or you just need to know if anything is changing, then that could be very beneficial. Another thing when cervical checks are beneficial is if you are being induced with Pitocin, they need to know if the strength of the Pitocin is doing enough to cause cervical change if it’s making your uterus contract enough to cause cervical change, and the only way they can do that is by doing a cervical check. You don’t want to be maxed out on Pitocin. Pitocin is more often than not described as having contractions that are more intense than contractions without Pitocin. And so, it’s hard to gauge labor by how the mother is acting based on Pitocin contractions. And in a hospital, I mean, let’s just call it like it is. Doctors like data. They like to see things and they like to know numbers. They like to know how things are progressing. They don’t like to just sit, watch, and observe, and they can’t because they are delivering a dozen other babies that day. I don’t know, probably not 12 babies in a day. And there are nurses in and out and everything like that. That’s the way to get your continuity of care and to make everybody happy is by looking at the charts and that’s how they see that everything is going normally unless you have somebody that is constantly by your side, like a midwife at a home birth, that can monitor and knows what the natural, normal flow of labor looks like without Pitocin or other interventions, then a cervical check is a pretty useful tool to make sure that induction, or Pitocin, or whatever is doing enough to cause cervical change.Meagan: Right. I wanted to add a number, a study about PROM. We were talking a little bit about it, but there were some studies. There weren’t a ton of people enrolled in this study, so you have to take it with a grain of salt, but at the same time it was still a study done, and so you can just look at it. What they did was, there were groups, and the one, they didn’t get checked until 40 to 41 weeks, and then the other one started getting their routine checks starting at 37 weeks. When they compared the rate of PROM in both groups, the rate of PROM was 6% in the group without vaginal exams. Sorry, yeah. So, 6% versus 18% of the women who had weekly exams had PROM.Julie: That’s three times the amount.Meagan: Yeah so, exactly. Yeah. Isn’t that crazy?Julie: Wow.Meagan: I remember when my water broke with Lainey, my nurse was like, “Only 10% of people have PROM,” and then it happened with number two, with Lyla, and then it happened with Web and I’m like, “Well, frick.”Julie: You’re like, “Sure feels like 100% to me.”Meagan: I feel like 100%, yeah. But that’s interesting to me, 6% versus 18%. Seriously, that’s pretty crazy. That’s a pretty big number. So something to think about especially if you are someone who has had PROM in the past. You may want to avoid cervical exams for that reason. I know for me, I wanted to avoid cervical exams and I wanted to avoid stripping of my membranes. Those two things were very important to me that I avoided. I started contracting and then my water broke early on still with Webster, but at the same time, I had a whole different experience with Webster and someone who trusted birth more and gave me the time that I needed. But to me, 6% versus 18%, that to me was pretty substantial.Julie: Yeah, that is pretty crazy. So, my second and third babies actually started with PROM. PROM is, I don’t know if we have said this or not, premature rupture of membranes. That’s basically just a fancy way of saying your water breaks before labor starts. So two out of my three VBACs, which were my spontaneous labors, started with PROM. But then again, I don’t know if it was really PROM or not because with my VBAC baby, I was in early labor at the wedding night before I went to bed.I woke up to my water breaking both times. I very well could have been in labor, but I labored for a long time afterwards. But then with my last baby, my third VBAC which is my fourth child, my water didn’t break until two minutes before she was born. So it’s really interesting. Yeah. That’s really good information, Meagan, to consider about cervical checks. The reason why they are forced so much and offered so much is because doctors like data. It’s just, it’s not a good way, but it’s a way for them to feel like there is some kind of control or that they have some kind of information that they can use to base the rest of your care on. And so, what I would always say if your provider is getting really pushy about a cervical check, one thing I tell my clients to do is say, “Okay, so we do my cervical check, then what will change in my care based on what we find in the cervical check? What are we going to do with this information that you get from the cervical check?” Your provider might say, “Well, we just want to make sure that your cervix is getting ready for labor.” Then you can say, “Well--” Sorry. That was said in a dumb voice. I’m sure that most providers-- I didn’t want to portray providers in that way. But if they just tell you, “Well, we want to make sure your cervix is getting ready for labor,” then you can say, “Okay, but what if it’s not getting ready for labor? What if it’s hard and closed, then what would you do?” And then they’ll say, “Well, we will probably just watch and want to do another cervical check next week to see if there has been any change.” Then you can say, “Okay. Well then, in that case, I think I would rather just wait.” You know? Or to say, “No. I’m going to decline.” I have never had clients, at least in pregnancy, get any kickback when they say, “No. I don’t want to do a cervical check.” Usually, the provider is like, “Okay, cool.” Because you know why? It’s because most parents-- I don’t think that anyone likes to get a cervical check, but it has become such a standard thing, most parents agree to it. They think, “My provider says I should get a cervical check. I guess I should get a cervical check.” Right? But then what happens is, if you’re 40 weeks or 41 weeks and your cervix is still hard and closed, and tight, and your provider takes their hand out of your vagina and says, “Well, your cervix is still posterior and pretty hard. There hasn’t been much change since last week. It doesn’t really look like your body is going to go into labor, so we should probably schedule a Cesarean.”Meagan: Yes, or an induction.Julie: Yeah, or an induction. But if the cervix isn’t opening, or I guess they could do a Foley bulb, but some providers won’t do a Foley with a VBAC which is not evidence-based either.Meagan: It depends on the place. Yeah. It’s so interesting. I have seen some pressure and kickback for people that are like, “You know, I am going to avoid doing that,” or “I am going to decline that.” It’s like, “Well, we really need to do it next week then because we need to know.”Julie: Yeah, and then next week just say, “No” again.Meagan: Yeah. “Because we need to know.” It’s like, no. They don’t need to know, you guys.Julie: Why do you need to know?Meagan: They don’t need to know. No one needs to know because your body will go into labor. It just will.Julie: Babies just don’t stay in forever. They just don’t.Meagan: I know. I know. So there is this website called feministmidwife.com and I love it because she has got a lot of awesome stuff on there. She has a blog. It’s kind of older, but I think it’s awesome. It’s called Empowering Gynecologic Exams: Speculum Care Without Stirrups. You guys should go read about it because she talks about how you don’t have to have your feet up in these crazy big stirrups to get vaginal exams and things like that. You just, you don’t. I also have seen that in labor where my clients are like, “Oh yeah. Hey, we need to do a cervical exam.” “Okay, that’s fine. Can you do that right here?” Because they are laboring comfortably and they are in their zone. They found it on their side, or on their hands and knees, or whatever, and providers are like, “No. We have to have you on your back,” and you are crisscross applesauce and I’m like, “No, you don’t.”So give that website a look for sure because sometimes even just the way you are checked can bring on the pain and discomfort, right? But yeah. It’s just hard. Cervical exams-- they kill me a little bit. They just kill me a little bit, I’ll be honest. But sometimes, it’s really nice to know when you want to know, and it’s for a convenience for you for your mind. You’re like, “Okay. I want to labor at home as long as possible, and so I would like to know where I am starting so when I am in labor, I know I am already 6 centimeters, so if things are intense, I probably need to go because I’m in transition,” or things like that. I understand that, too. You just have to go with what is best for you and what you feel that you need, but don’t let anyone pressure you or force you into something that you are not comfortable with. If you are presented with a provider that is like, “No. We are doing a cervical exam. That is what we do. You are 37 weeks today. We do it.” You know? You don’t have to. If that’s not what you want, say, “I decline. I am not going to do that.”Julie: Just walk out. Say “No.” Say, “I’ll sign a waiver saying I am refusing treatment and you document in my records that I declined a cervical check,” and then bam. Then it’s documented.Meagan: No one needs to be in your vagina. They just don’t.Julie: Just say “No”.Meagan: Just say “No”. Again, unless you want to. Unless you want to and if you do, that’s fine. So, yeah. Do you have any other--Cervical ChangesJulie: Yeah. Should we talk about the different changes that the cervix does go through?Meagan: Yeah, Mhmm.Julie: Because sometimes just hearing a number, the centimeter number can be pretty frustrating. I wish I had a video. We go over this in-depth in our How to VBAC Prep Course for Parents and also for our doulas in our Doula Course. The cervix-- most of the time when people say “cervical change”, they’re like, “Oh, 4 centimeters, 5 centimeters, 6 centimeters, 7 centimeters”. But what they don’t think about is all the other changes that the cervix is making on its way to 10 centimeters. A cervix, at the very beginning, during your whole entire pregnancy, we talked about it at the very beginning of this podcast, your cervix’s job is to be hard, tight, closed, thick, and pointed backwards. It is Fort Knox. It is keeping that baby in. That baby is not coming out and by the time your baby is born, it has to be wide open and create all of the space and room for baby. In order to do that, it does more than just open, which is when you say, “Oh, 5 centimeters dilated.” That’s what we are talking about when we say your cervix is opening. Okay?Now, one of the first things that your cervix will do is start to straighten out, which will move from a posterior position to anterior position. Not to be confused with baby’s position. Sometimes, I have my clients who will come back to me and they will be like, “They said my baby was posterior during the cervical check” and I am like, “Well, I think they might have meant that your cervix is posterior.” Posterior just means to the back, so your cervix is pointing backwards. It straightens out to become more anterior. It moves forward. It also softens. So like we talked about before, your forehead, your nose, and then your chin, and then your lips. It goes through those softening phases. By the time it’s all the way soft, it will be really squishy like your lips are, and then it thins. Which, if you think about it, it starts pretty thick. I don’t know. How long is a cervix? An inch or something long? And then it thins out until it is paper-thin, and then eventually it pulls all the way over the baby’s head and you can’t feel it anymore. So that is called effacement which means thinning. Effacement. And then it also--Oh no, wait. I got it mixed up. The softening is different from effacement. It softens until it gets soft and squishy like your lips and then it thins out. The thinning part is called effacement. And then also, your baby descends. How high your baby is in your pelvis is also part of cervical change because a baby whose head is pressing against the cervix is going to cause the cervix to change more. So it goes through those changes of moving forward, becoming softer, thinning, and then opening is actually one of the last things that it does.Now, it doesn’t do these things in order, but usually, they do them simultaneously. But I will tell you, a cervix that is forward, and softer, and thinner opens a lot easier than a cervix that is harder and thicker. Right? Can you envision what I am explaining here?Meagan: Yeah.Julie: So if you get checked when you are in labor and you are 4 centimeters and 50% effaced, which means halfway effaced, right? You would need to go from about 1 inch thick-- I think, I’m just guessing. I don’t know if it is 1 inch, so don’t really quote me on that. I just am thinking in my head based on the visuals I have seen. Which means, now you are half an inch thick, so 50% effaced and 4 centimeters dilated, and then you get checked again two hours later and your nurse is like, “Well, you are 4 centimeters dilated.” Then you are automatically going to think, “Oh my gosh. I’m still 4 centimeters dilated. My cervix hasn’t made any change at all.” Then I always want to you ask, “Okay. Well, how effaced am I?” And then, the nurse will usually say, “Oh. Well look, you are 80% effaced.” Going from 50% effaced to 80% effaced is a huge deal because that means your cervix is thinner, and thinner cervixes open more easily. So even though you might still be 4 centimeters, going from 50% effaced to 80% effaced is a lot of cervical change.Meagan: Mhmm, yeah.Julie: And also, where is baby in the pelvis? What station is baby? I know we-- oh my gosh. There is so much. I feel like I am teaching our course now. We go way in-depth into all of this in our VBAC Parents Course which you can find at thevbaclink.com/shop, but how low baby is into the pelvis can also make a big impact on cervical change. If your baby goes from a -2 station or a -3 station to a -1 station, the baby has gotten a lot lower and again, a baby that is lower in the pelvis also can create cervical change quicker. So don’t get discouraged if you are 4 centimeters. 4 centimeters is a really commonplace for your body to hang out for a little while. Getting to 6 centimeters is always the longest part. Getting from 1 to 6 usually progresses slower than getting from 7 to 10, right? 7 to 10 usually goes relatively quick compared to 1 to 6. But it’s also kind of common to hang out at 6 centimeters for a little while as your baby is descending and your cervix is thinning out more and getting softer. Those are two really common centimeter dilations to hang out at while your cervix finishes getting ready for the next stage of labor.So, always ask. If you’re still 4 centimeters, or 5, or whatever, ask about your effacement. Ask where baby is. Ask if your cervix is feeling any softer or if it is still pretty firm because all of those things contribute to cervical change and all those things will help your cervix dilate faster as they progress.Meagan: Nice. That was awesome. Good job.Julie: I am trying to go through it fast without teaching on our entire course for, you know, time’s sake.Meagan: Yeah. Moral of the story, don’t get defeated if your cervix hasn’t made the amount of change that you hoped for or thought your provider said you had to make. Sometimes it takes longer.Julie: Yeah. And before labor starts, if you feel like a cervical check has the possibility of making you feel really down and discouraged, then it’s okay to say no and not get checked. Just assume that your cervix is doing exactly what needs to do by keeping the baby in until it is ready to come out.Meagan: Yep.Julie: Ode to the cervix. The cervix is a pretty powerful thing, you guys.Meagan: It’s an amazing thing. It’s an amazing thing. We are grateful for our cervix, and our uterus, and all of the amazing things our bodies do, really. So, okay. If you have any other questions on the cervix, give us an email. We love to talk about the cervix.Julie: Really, we love to talk about anything.Meagan: Anything, yeah.Julie: We just love to talk. That’s why we have a podcast. All right. Well, yes. Let us know what your other questions are and now, hopefully, you’re walking away from this episode knowing a little bit more about cervixes and cervical checks.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Breana’s first birth was not only an emergency Cesarean at 24 weeks due to severe preeclampsia, but she was also given a classical incision and told that under no circumstances would her body be able to tolerate labor in the future. The news broke Breana’s heart as she longed deeply for a natural, unmedicated birth. Breana researched extensively and found a community of women who also had special scars. When birthing unassisted seemed like her only option, Breana found Amish midwives who were willing to attend her birth. Her VBAC was triumphant, restorative, and wonderful in every way.When our bodies are properly fueled and nourished, our birth outcomes are better and our babies are healthier. Breana is a perfect example.We’ve always been told that preeclampsia has no known cause, but what if there WAS something we could do to prevent it? Additional linksSpecial Scars, Special HopeSilent Knife: Cesarean Prevention and Vaginal Birth after Cesarean (VBAC)My Homebirth after Preterm Classical Cesarean - Issue 47, Natural Mother MagazineThe Brewer Pregnancy DietBlue Ribbon Baby PagesThe VBAC Link Blog: Birth After Premature CesareanC-Section Incision Types: Learn More About Special ScarsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar and to eliminate false starts and filler words. Julie: Welcome, welcome. It is Women of Strength Wednesday and you are listening to The VBAC Link podcast. This is Julie and Meagan is here with me today. We have a really neat story for you today. It’s been a while since we have had somebody on our podcast with a special scar, which is a scar that is different than the low, vertical incision or the bikini cut scar that most parents have when they get a Cesarean.Meagan: More horizontal, you mean?Julie: Yeah. Did I say vertical?Meagan: Yeah.Julie. Oh, well.Meagan: That’s okay.Julie: Different than the low, horizontal incision that most parents get when they have a C-section. There are lots of different types of special scars. This type that we are talking about today is a classical incision which means it’s over the top of the uterus and it goes vertical down the belly, or down the uterus rather. Sometimes it’s vertical on the belly and sometimes it’s not It just depends. But I’m really excited because Breana, our guest today, is from Pennsylvania. I’m actually just going to read her bio and what she wrote.Before I go into that and introduce her, I want to have Meagan share a Review of the week with us.Review of the WeekMeagan: Okay. This is from Gaby and she is on Apple Podcasts and her subject is “Hopeful for a VBAC.” She says, “I feel so lucky to have the time and space each evening (after my littlest has gone to bed) to listen to the meaningful and beautiful birth stories on The VBAC Link. I am hopeful for a VBAC in early September after having a traumatic birth story with my first child. Whatever this new story holds, I will be able to handle it better because I educated myself with this podcast. Thank you for sharing these stories with us all.”I am assuming that was-- let’s see. That was July 4th of last year, so she has had her baby by now.Julie: Are we going to stalk people?Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say. We are either going to have to stalk her on The VBAC Link Community on our Facebook. If you are not on that, definitely tune in to that on Facebook. Just search The VBAC Link Community, answer the questions, and we will make sure to get you in there. It’s an amazing community and yeah, Gaby. If you are still listening, email us. We would love to hear how things went and yeah. I’m going to turn the time back over to you, Julie.Breana’s storyJulie: All right. Here we go. Breana is really, really incredible. Her story is really awesome and I am just going to read her little bio for you because I don’t think I could say it better myself. She says, “My name is Breana and I am a wife and stay-at-home mom of two girls. In April 2018, my first daughter was delivered at just 24 weeks due to severe preeclampsia via a classical Cesarean.”I’m just going to do a little pause there for a minute. She had a preterm Cesarean and it’s a classical incision with a special scar. This is kind of a big deal. We have a blog about birth after premature Cesarean and also about special scars, but she has both of these.So she says, “I was told I would never be allowed to carry past 36 weeks and that I would need repeat Cesareans for all future babies or I would have a uterine rupture due to the classical incision I have been given. After much searching, I discovered the Brewer diet for preeclampsia and the Special Scar Organization, both of which were answers to my prayers. In August 2020, after a healthy, full-term pregnancy, I had a lovely home birth after classical Cesarean with wonderful, Amish midwives.”Okay. I want to pick apart all of these things and talk about them. But instead of doing that and taking up the whole time, I am going to turn the time over to Breana and let her share her wonderful story because this is a must-listen, I think, for everybody because it covers so many things. And then after she is done sharing her story, we are going to pick something to talk about.Breana: Okay, thank you so much. Yeah. My name is Breana. I have been married to my husband, Michael, for almost four years. I am a stay-at-home mom of two beautiful girls and we live near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. In November 2017, I got pregnant with my first baby. I was seeing midwives at a birth center in Pittsburgh for prenatal care and was planning to have an unmedicated birth at the center, but I had a really difficult pregnancy from the start and was dealing with severe morning sickness, like, vomiting every day several times a day. It was really hard for me to eat due to that and I think that my empty stomach was only making me sicker, but I didn’t realize it at the time.As a result, I wasn’t being well-nourished. That was a really bad start. When morning sickness didn’t go away by the second trimester, I expressed to the midwives my symptoms, which were severe nausea, persistent, debilitating migraines, and swelling. The midwives just dismissed my symptoms as common side effects of pregnancy and they blamed my migraines on hormonal changes.They told me to take Tylenol along with caffeinated coffee for the migraine and they assured me that the nausea would probably ease up soon. But by mid-April, I had a prenatal visit which included routine testing for which I was instructed to fast. When I got to that appointment, I was feeling really hungry, tired, and weak. When the midwife took my blood pressure, she looked shocked and asked if I was feeling all right. I remember being sort of frustrated and saying, “No. I really don’t feel well, which is what I have been trying to tell you for weeks.” But they had acted like it was all normal and no big deal. I just thought, “Okay, I guess this is how pregnancy is for everyone.”It was my first pregnancy, so after taking my blood pressure a few times, it was still super high and was what they considered to be within the hypertensive crisis zone. It was 180/110. After a quick urine dip test, they concluded that I needed to go immediately to the hospital for some additional tests and monitoring.That’s how it was put to me, so I really didn’t understand the fullness of the situation or realize how it serious it was. I imagined that I would just go in for a quick ultrasound, or blood test, or something and be home by that evening. But obviously, that wasn’t the case. When I arrived at the hospital, they told me they were surprised I hadn’t already had a stroke and said I needed to go to the ICU immediately.Meagan: Whoa, scary.Breana: Yeah. They told me I had to be prepared for an emergency C-section at any moment and that I would not be leaving that hospital pregnant. So it was extremely scary to have all of that thrown at me out of the blue. They told me that I had severe preeclampsia for which there was no known cause or cure and that the only possible way to save mine and the baby’s life was to deliver as soon as possible. They said there was this fine balance between giving my baby as much time to develop as possible and also not holding off so long that my body would begin to shut down from the preeclampsia.I was admitted to the hospital on a Tuesday and my daughter was born on the Friday afternoon. We spent four days in the hospital leading up to the C-section. By Friday afternoon, we were told that delivery could no longer be held off and that my daughter’s best chance was for me to have a C-section immediately. I expressed to them my wish to give birth vaginally, but I was told that she may not survive a vaginal birth. So it was a recommendation that we proceed with a C-section. They explained to me that given the extreme prematurity of my pregnancy, they would probably have to do a classical C-section so as not to risk cutting the major uterine arteries on my under-developed lower segment.They said that would mean a vertical incision on the upper portion of my uterus, which came with more risk and will make it impossible for me to ever deliver vaginally for future pregnancies. Obviously, the idea was pretty horrifying to me not only because surgery was my worst fear, but also because I had really wanted an unmedicated, natural birth and I was crushed at the prospect of never, ever getting to experience that.I was super hesitant after hearing that and my mind was reeling. Then, they told me that if I didn’t consent to the C-section right then and there, they would have to do one anyway, but in that case, there would be no time to give me an epidural, so I would be put under general, which I was terrified of, and also that they would definitely have to give me a classical, but that if I consented now, we would have more time to take it slow and maybe do the low transverse after all.Looking back, there was definitely a lot of pressure and I wasn’t really in my right mind because of all the drugs they had me on. It was honestly a struggle even to keep my eyes open. I asked that my husband and I be left alone so that we can think about what to do. I was a young 20-year-old, first-time mom and was trusting that the experts knew best. Obviously, I mean, I would have cut off my limbs if they told me it was necessary to save my baby’s life, so I was willing to do anything they said.Our daughter, Aurora, was born at 24 weeks weighing just 1 pound, 8 ounces, and measuring 12 inches from head to heel. We only got to see her for a brief moment before she was whisked off to the NICU, so there was no immediate skin-to-skin whatsoever. I couldn’t see her for probably the first 12 hours and they didn’t let me hold her for over two weeks. Even after that, it was often a fight with the NICU. So I often felt really alone trying to be an advocate during that time. She had a lot to overcome in the NICU and we ultimately spent 104 days there.She was born in April and we didn’t get to take her home until August. When we finally did leave, a respiratory therapist who had been there at the beginning told me he hadn’t thought she was going to live more than a few days. But she is two now and has absolutely no health problems at all which is really remarkable for a baby born so premature.Meagan: That’s awesome. Yeah.Breana: She’s so smart, and beautiful, and healthy and we are so, so proud of her and just so thankful to God for getting us through such a challenging time. I was also able to exclusively breastfeed her which I had been told wouldn’t be possible with a micro-preemie and I was actually laughed at when I let the NICU know I was staying full-time so that I could be with her and breastfeed her. So I just want to encourage other NICU moms to fight for and advocate for their babies in the NICU.I want to mention that during the four days leading up to the C-section, I was confined to a bed with IVs and constant monitoring. I was denied all food and drink during that time. I was absolutely starving and so thirsty but was told that it was too dangerous for me to eat in case we needed to suddenly rush in and do a C-section, in which case my stomach would need to be empty.Of course, it was really frustrating to try and go along with that reasoning when the days kept ticking by and a C-section just wasn’t happening, and all the while I was starving and just feeling weaker and weaker. I was also given magnesium sulfate through my IVs to prevent convulsions and diuretics to flush fluid out of my lungs.Julie: Oh my gosh, that is the worst.Meagan: Yucky.Julie: So awful.Breana: Yeah. I’ve since learned that diuretics are contraindicated during pregnancy due to their ability to deplete blood volume expansion and preeclampsia, which, of course, was the entire reason I was there in the first place. But essentially, they gave me a drug that accelerated the problem and it was within just hours of receiving the diuretic that they told me the C-section could no longer be put off and it was the only way to save my baby’s life.Julie: That makes so much sense. I had preeclampsia with my first and I had the magnesium sulfate drip during labor and my preeclampsia got way worse the first week after he was born than it had been my entire pregnancy. I was swollen up like the Michelin Man, or whatever you call it. All the way up from my feet to my legs were swollen up like a balloon and listen to that. I am just reading about the Brewer’s diet and I am super intrigued. So we are going to talk about that when you are done, but I am not going to keep interrupting I am going to let you go on with your story right now.Breana: Thank you. I am trying to pack it all in and not be a chatterbox the whole time, but thank you for giving me the time.Yeah, so that was terrible and again, I was a first-time mom and I was just like, “Okay, I am at the hospital. They are supposed to help me. They obviously know more than I do, so I’m just going to trust them.” When I’m asked if I think my C-section was unnecessary, I hesitate to answer because the C-section itself may have been necessary at that point, but only because of the improper care I received leading up to it.I was admitted into the hospital for preeclampsia symptoms, given high doses of magnesium sulfate, of which a side effect is breathing difficulties. Then, I was given a diuretic for problems rel to breathing difficulties and I was then given a C-section for severe preeclampsia symptoms, which the diuretic is known to exasperate.So this is a quote, I am going to read it real quick, from the documentary “The Business of Being Born”, which I think is a really great thing. Everyone should watch. It sums up how I feel about my experience. It says, “Step-by-step, one intervention leads to a series of interventions and then that result is the mother finally ends up with a Cesarean and everybody says, ‘Thank God we were able to do all the interventions to save your baby.’ But the fact of the matter is, if they hadn’t started the cascade of interventions in the first place, none of that would have been necessary.” So obviously, I was extremely sick when I arrived at the hospital and something needed to be done for me, but based on the studying I’ve since done regarding the decades of research on preeclampsia, I believe that ensuring I received proper nutrition should have been the first order of business that day instead of what did happen, which, unfortunately, was the opposite. My C-section recovery was pretty brutal. I had never experienced pain like that and I haven’t since. The hours immediately after the surgery consisted of me going into shock and having persistent vomiting and dry heaving that I couldn’t get under control which was pretty excruciating since I had just been freshly stitched up. It took a while, probably weeks, for me to be able to stand and walk without wincing in pain. It was not an easy recovery.When I was counseled in the ICU after the C-section, I was told that I had indeed been given and a classical incision after all which meant I would now need repeat C-section’s at 36 weeks for all future deliveries and that under no circumstances will I ever be able to labor because the risk of uterine rupture was just too great for me. I was told this by doctors who claimed to be very VBAC supportive. They told me that I was not a candidate because I had a classical scar.The way they talked made me feel like I had been given this crazy, outdated procedure and was now forever damaged, so that was really hard to work through. But it also got me thinking about how if this procedure was, in fact, so outdated, then what about the women who had a VBAC in the early 1900s? I thought they had to have existed and wouldn’t that mean that someone somewhere must have done it?Another thing they told me upon discharge was that it was likely that I would get preeclampsia again and there was nothing that could be done since there was no known cause or cure other than delivery.So now, I was pretty terrified of getting pregnant again, but at that time, I just had to focus on my daughter who was in critical condition in the NICU. When we got home from the NICU, I looked everywhere and I couldn’t find any stories of anyone who had had a VBAC with a classical scar, so that was pretty discouraging. Everyone has the low transverse scar and everything I came across just said what I had been told before which was that classical scars could never, ever VBAC. Basically, it seemed to be a unanimous consensus that VBACs can and do happen, however, I was just that one exception.Eventually, I think after searching the keyword “classical VBAC”, I came across the book online called Silent Knife. I hadn’t even read it yet and I didn’t know what it had to say about classical scars, but I thought, “What the heck? I will see if I can find this author on Facebook.” I did find her and she ended up being a practicing midwife in Boston, actually, the midwife who coined the term “VBAC”. I ended up sending a message to her asking if she had ever known anyone to have a VBAC with a classical scar. She got back to me and told me that yes, many women with my kind of scar go on to have a lovely, normal, natural birth and I had to reread her message a couple of times. I was in shock. I actually cried because it was the first time I ever heard a “yes” from a birth worker like that. I was like, “Did she understand my question? Is this really what she is saying to me?”She was so wonderful and was willing to speak with me over the phone. She connected me to a couple of underground or non-traditional midwives over the country who were maybe closer to me or maybe willing to travel to me when I did decide to get pregnant again. This was around the time I also found the Special Scars Special Hope organization which was extremely helpful to me. I no longer felt like this freak who was the only person since 1950 to have been given this scar. I now could connect with thousands of other women all over the world who were like me and had all been told the same thing, that we couldn’t VBAC, yet many of them had gone on to have their VBACs, so I was just so thrilled and so encouraged to get to talk with him and hear their stories.Of course, it was around that time I also stumbled upon The VBAC Link, which was just another amazing resource for me and I was so encouraged by these other women’s stories. I couldn’t believe how much I was able to relate to them. I listened to it every day as I made dinner or folded laundry, so being on the other side of it like this is just really so surreal. I especially enjoyed the special scars episodes and was so grateful to your guys for including special scars and not leaving us out due to the negative stigma that surrounds it. I want to take a brief moment to hopefully sum up what I was referring to earlier when I spoke of the decades of research on preeclampsia.One of the things I came across when searching for answers about preeclampsia was the Brewer diet. I don’t like to refer to it as a diet because really, it’s just a nutritional outline to ensure your body is well-supported for pregnancy. The creator of the diet, Dr. Tom Brewer, was an obstetrician who, in the late 1960s and early 70s, formulated a nutritional guideline based on his findings as well as decades of research from other doctors. Of some 7000 pregnant women whose care Dr. Brewer oversaw, only 0.5% ever presented with mild symptoms of preeclampsia. He eradicated preeclampsia in populations where it had previously been upwards of 40%, which is really remarkable.I strongly encourage everyone to look into the diet. Once you understand the science behind the physiology of pregnancy, it becomes obvious why the Brewer diet has been so successful. I’ve run into a few people who have insisted that preeclampsia can’t be prevented or reversed with diet since it hasn’t been accepted by mainstream medicine. This is largely due to the fact that Dr. Brewer found it unethical to conduct a placebo study. He was also a champion for racial equality which, sadly, I believe played a part in his work being snubbed and overlooked, particularly because of the social climate of his day.I’ve always been puzzled by those who claim that diet has nothing to do with preeclampsia. Why would anyone argue the fact that a healthy diet promotes health? Why would you be so eager to dismiss the theory when the alternative is basically just accepting defeat? What I mean by that is that currently mainstream medicine has no answers and says there is no cure for preeclampsia, yet it is among the most common complications of pregnancy, affecting thousands of mothers annually.The unfortunate truth is, no one makes money from a healthy person which I, unfortunately, personally believe is one of the driving factors why the Brewer diet is ignored. But nevertheless, I encourage everyone to, at the very least, look into it and see what it’s about. Dr. Brewer wrote several books and there is a free website and Facebook group called Dr. Brewer Pregnancy Nutrition that was incredibly helpful to me. Without the Brewer diet and the support I received from the ladies in that group, my VBAC would not have been possible. So it was really important to me to just take a minute to talk about that.After I had studied so much and been blessed with all the support and information surrounding preeclampsia and VBACs, I began to get to the source of my fears regarding another pregnancy. I realized I was letting this fear dictate my life since my husband and I knew we wanted a family and we believe children are a blessing and a reward from God. So after a lot of prayer, my husband and I felt convicted to just entrust our family planning to God.At that point, I felt like I at least had a rough game plan as to how a second pregnancy would look going forward. I happened to get pregnant again in November 2019, so my due date was within days of when my first son had been. It was incredibly healing for me to be able to continue to carry that pregnancy full-term and pass those year marks from two years before.I planned to follow the Brewer diet, which I did, and I fully believe it is the reason I was able to have a successful, full-term second pregnancy completely free of preeclampsia. I did have some brutal morning sickness again, but this time, I knew how to manage it much better by eating small, healthy snacks and not really allowing my stomach to get empty. I think that helped me a lot.I initially thought I would have an unassisted birth because no hospital was willing to let me VBAC on a classical scar and I honestly felt pretty let down by those I had put my trust in the first time, so I didn’t really want to give birth in a hospital anyway. I did have contacts with midwives in other states that I mentioned before, but honestly, I knew I wanted to labor alone and undisturbed for the most part, so it felt silly for me to hire a midwife from a few states away and go through the whole process of having her stay with us just to make her wait in the other room while I labored. So ultimately, I decided to contact the Amish.I have gone to Amish country for festivals and stuff since I was a kid and I thought, “Okay. The Amish must be having home births. So, who is helping them?” I had this crazy idea to ask my friend if she could give me the address for one of the Amish guys that worked on her house. I thought, “What do I really have to lose by writing a letter to his wife and asking her who her midwife is?” So that’s what I did. This Amish family, they were just so kind and went out of their way to connect me with the Amish midwife who had been a midwife for 40 some years and attended hundreds of birth a year, upwards of 100 births a year. So she had a lot of experience.She was a gem and I was so fortunate. That midwife works with a non-Amish doula who is also a midwife learning and working with the Amish community. The Amish family told me that yes, the midwives were willing to assist a Yankee woman. That’s what they call us non-Amish and they gave me the doula’s phone number. I gave her a call and I remember hearing it ringing and thinking, “This is so dumb. She’s going to hang up on me when I tell her I have a classical scar. Why am I even bothering?” But to my surprise, she didn’t hang up on me. She actually asked, “When would be good for us to meet in person?” She also let me know that there was an Amish woman in their community who had had three home births after an inverted T incision and would be willing to meet with me as well after some encouragement and support. That was the first time I actually met another person in real life, not online, who had a special scar. That meant a lot to me. It was really just crazy how it worked out. It felt really meant to be. I felt so secure and comforted with them whenever I met them.Meagan: I love that.Breana: They were so respectful of my wishes throughout the whole pregnancy as well as the birth. They were hands-off when I wanted them to be and hands-on when I needed them to be. I didn’t want any ultrasounds or testing at all and they were okay with that. I took my own blood pressure and weight, and our prenatal visits were super laid-back just in my living room. It was amazing. I really couldn’t have asked for anything better. So when I was 38 weeks and 2 days, I went into labor at about noon on a Saturday. You know what they say about a full moon and it actually was a full moon that weekend. My birth was one of four or five that my midwives attended that weekend.Anyway, I didn’t recognize that it was real labor at first. I just thought Braxton Hicks or something, but I didn’t take it too seriously until the time when I was literally on my bed moaning and I acknowledged, “Okay, maybe this is real.” About that time, I went to the bathroom and realized I was losing my mucus plug.I let my doula know what was going on and it was the middle of the night at that point. I told her I wanted to labor undisturbed anyway, so they didn’t have to bother coming just yet. My contractions were mainly felt in my lower back and wrapped around, so what I really had, for the most part, was back labor. At this time, I was having contractions three to four minutes apart. I was just laying on my bed trying to relax my body as much as possible and even sleep in between contractions when I could. At that point, everything I had learned from HypnoBirthing became really valuable and helpful to me. My husband pressed the heating pad into my lower back each time I had a contraction and that counterpressure was really what got me through. I also alternated from the bed to the shower and would run the hot water on my back.So that was how I spent most of the night and my contractions were three to four minutes apart most of the time. Eventually, I could tell I was entering transition because I was getting chills and shaky legs and it was getting so much harder for me to work through my contractions. So I told my doula that I would like for them to come at that point.I think it was about 5:00 a.m. by the time they ran to my house and there were three of them. I had the older, Amish midwife who I had first mentioned, the non-Amish doula and midwife, and the Amish woman who had had three homebirths on her inverted T scar because she had offered to come to my birth and I was really happy to take her up on it. Her additional support and encouragement just meant so much to me and I knew that she really got it. She knew what it was like because she herself had done it and she is also my sister in Christ. They all are. So the whole thing was just such a blessing.When they arrived, they offered to check my cervix to see how far dilated I was which I didn’t want. I was also nervous that I would get discouraged if it was a lower number, I would have a hard time, so I told her I wanted her to check, but not to tell me the number. She checked and told me she really didn’t think I was going to be disappointed, so would I like her to tell me? And I said, “Yes.” She told me I was 9 centimeters and that my cervix was paper-thin.She told me that she could feel the baby’s head under the bag of waters and she offered to break my waters if that’s what I wanted because the pressure of the waters had made me feel a little more pushy than I was. I just really didn’t want any interventions at all though, so I opted to labor somewhere and let my body do its own thing. I sent them downstairs and it was just my husband and me again since our two-year-old had been sleeping this whole time. My midwives did my dishes and made breakfast. It’s funny because that’s what I love about home births, just how laid-back and normal it is.So eventually after laboring in bed somewhere, I was laying on my side, my husband was doing the counterpressure with a heating pad and I was working through a contraction, and I heard a loud pop and a splash because my waters had broken. I did swell up right after that just because of the rush of hormones, but after that, I felt so much better. I was just really glad that I had waited for it to happen on its own because that’s the way that I wanted.At that point, I was feeling like I could push and I ultimately pushed for a good two hours. I pushed on the bed and the shower, leaning on my husband, leaning on my doula, and the yoga ball, and the toilet, and everything.Eventually, I was just so exhausted that I crawled back into bed and I was kind of on my side, kind of on my back and one of them suggested I try using a towel to play tug-of-war to help direct my pushes. I was just so tired from being up all night and pushing for so long. I had been laboring for 21 hours at that point, so the tug-of-war trick really worked for me. It was probably within minutes that she was born. We named her Athena and she weighed 9 pounds, 4 ounces, and was 21 inches long. Her size was such a lovely surprise, especially considering that she was born at 38+3. My midwife said, “Just imagine how much more she might have weighed had she come out any later.”But ultimately, it was just a really amazing experience. She was born on a Sunday morning and we just checked the time on my husband‘s watch. It was just so laid-back and exactly how I hoped it would be, but probably better than I hoped it would be. After it happened, I just laid there thinking, “I can’t believe this actually happened. I can’t believe I really did it.” You know, after you have been told you can’t do something how many times, that moment was just-- I felt amazing. I was able to pull her up to my chest for skin-to-skin immediately. I was able to breastfeed right away and they left us alone. We put off the weighing and the measuring and everything for a little while because I just really wanted that golden hour to be undisturbed and I wanted to do delayed cord clamping. My older daughter was able to come to meet her right away because she happened to wake up right after she was born which was perfect timing. I didn’t have any tears, which I was pretty grateful for with an over 9-pound baby. I was pretty sore from all of that pushing, but honestly, my postpartum was a breeze, and just a couple of days later, I was walking her down the street to show her off to my neighbors, so I felt pretty good. It was just an amazing experience. I am so grateful for the support I had and the opportunity to have such a restorative experience.I told myself that if I ever got to have a VBAC, I was going to make a big deal about it so no one else would have such a hard time finding answers like I did. So I just really appreciate this opportunity to share more than you know and I thank you guys for all you do. It really does make a difference. It definitely, definitely did with all those episodes. I’m almost done, but I did write down some key takeaways that I wanted to sum up for the listeners if that’s okay.The first one is, your body was carefully designed by a creator who loves you. He didn’t forget anything or leave anything out. Bodies heal and a scar on your uterus does not mean you are any less capable than the next woman in doing what your body was designed to do. Along those lines, something that I think maybe subconsciously made an impact on me was that when I was a teenager, I got to witness one of my younger brothers be born in the car on the way to the birth center. I think that that experience showed me how when left alone, birth really is, for the most part, simple and straightforward. I think what I took from one of your older episodes was the idea that if I were to do nothing and not schedule a repeat C-section like they were telling me I had to do, then my body would instinctively know what to do and would give birth vaginally. Obviously, uterine rupture does happen it should be taken seriously, but so should the risk of multiple Cesareans.That should always be an individual choice, not one for your doctors to make for you. The other thing that I had was to know what you want and fight for it. Find a provider who will meet your needs and respect your authority and choices even if it means thinking outside the box, like writing a letter to the Amish. You don’t need anyone’s permission to use your own vagina. I also wrote an article that’s in Issue 47 of Natural Mother magazine if anyone is interested in reading some things I may not have covered on this episode. But that was all the bullet points I had written down to share, so thank you for letting me ramble on that entire time.The Brewer DietJulie: No, we love it. You have lots of good information in that episode. I feel like we almost don’t have to do any educational piece, but I want to talk about something that we don’t talk about a lot on our podcast. But before I get into that, I want to let you know that we have a blog about VBAC after premature Cesarean and about special scars that you can find by going to our website thevbaclink.com/blog and just in the search bar, typing those terms in, and it will pull the blogs right up. It will give you all the information you want to know.But I want to talk about diet during pregnancy. We have one podcast about pregnancy nutrition. We have a blog about pregnancy nutrition. Normally Meagan is the nutrition/exercise guru of the bunch, but I am going to kind of take over this time on that topic because I was reading some really interesting things about the Brewer diet while Breana was sharing her story with us. So I wanted to go through and just talk about a few fun little statistics that I found and we will cite these in the show notes. The first one is from the website drbrewerpregnancydiet.com. There is a tab called “Preeclampsia” on the left-hand side. Click on that tab and it talks all about the Brewer diet in relation to preeclampsia. There’s a lot of content taken from books on the subject, and studies, and things like that. A lot of the information is outdated, but nutritional needs are still pretty consistent, I think, across-the-board. There’s also a lot of up-to-date information in there as well. But I wanted to point out a couple of things. So first of all, we know that the medical system is more likely to recommend prescription medications and medical treatments to prevent and treat things than they are to recommend food to treat things.But on this website, drbrewerpregnancydiet.com, on the left-hand side, click “Preeclampsia”. It’s really, really interesting because like I was saying before, the medical system will recommend prescription drugs. They will recommend early delivery. They will recommend all sorts of medicalized things to take care of whatever it is that we are dealing with, but the medical system is not designed in a way to set up proper nutrition to help heal your body with food and to help you learn how to eat better and do better so that your pregnancy can avoid these things in the first place. It’s just not the same that way. It would kind of hurt itself by preventing the things that it is being paid to treat. Not that I’m against the medical system because I am very grateful for when it is needed, but I think there needs to be a really good balance between treating your body naturally and then using the medical system we need to.It’s really funny because the medical system, or scientists, or doctors generally claim that we don’t know what causes preeclampsia. We think it might have something to do with when the placenta is developing, but we can’t really pinpoint a cause. But Dr. Tom Brewer, the obstetrician, has pretty good logic about what causes preeclampsia. I’m just going to read a quote here from him on that website I was just telling you about. He says, “Low blood volume, which is the inevitable result of dehydration and the use of diuretics contributes directly to eclampsia, premature birth, and low birth weight. And now, there is a whole group of hypertension drugs that have come out in the last 10 to 15 years. These drugs just ravage women. They cause direct damage to all of the cells in the mother’s body, particularly to the liver, a little to the kidneys, and then to the placenta and fetus.”It’s really interesting because like you were saying earlier, diuretics, excessive doses of magnesium and things like that prevent the body from being efficient in the blood flow and it inhibits the blood from getting to the fetus, to the placenta, and to the uterus, which all are really critical for helping baby grow, right?It’s really interesting in here because he says-- I’m just reading on his website and then, let’s see. Where did it go? “The cause of preeclampsia was discovered in the 1950s and 1960s,” and I read that I was like, “Wait a minute. Doctors don’t know what causes preeclampsia, right?” But, listen to this. “Preeclampsia is caused by abnormal blood volume, which is caused by malnutrition or food deficiency.”Now listen, it might seem strange to you. Like with me, I’m like, “I was definitely not starving myself when I was pregnant with my first baby,” because I had preeclampsia with my first and I was definitely eating lots of food, but I was working really hard and I would eat a salad for lunch thinking I was being healthy, right? But when you deprive your body of the critical nutrients that it needs, it doesn’t matter what you are eating, but if you’re not eating foods that are rich and nutrient-dense, then you are malnourished. And when you’re not drinking enough water, your blood volume can’t increase in the way that it needs to in order to effectively and healthily support you, a healthy placenta, and a healthy baby. So it’s really interesting because it talks about how this particular diet that he recommends following really helps the blood volume expansion. I mean, there is a whole bunch of sciencey stuff in here that I could go on, but basically eating a high protein diet with lots of salt helps the body create the blood volume that it needs to sustain the pregnancy which essentially prevents preeclampsia and other blood-related issues.I definitely need to learn more about it and I encourage you to read more about it too, but it shows some really interesting statistics here, where normally we think like, “Oh, salt is bad. Salt is bad. Salt is bad.” But in pregnancy, salt is necessary for us to remain hydrated and again, for our circulatory system, and for our overall well-being. They compare studies of people that were on a high salt diet versus a low salt diet and the outcomes are way better on the high salt diet. Instances of preeclampsia were 37 per 1000 in the high salt diet versus a low salt diet had 97 in 1000 cases. So, three times more likely to get preeclampsia according to this study when you eat a low salt diet. Isn’t that interesting?It also goes on to compare perinatal deaths, C-sections, and placenta abruption which are all significantly higher in the low salt diet group. But the Brewer’s diet is not just about drinking lots of water, and eating protein, and increasing your salt intake, but there are some really cool things that they recommend eating including eggs, milk, meat, and fish every day. Dark, green, leafy vegetables, lots of vitamin C sources, nice, healthy grains, servings of healthy fats and oils, and vitamin A are all things that he recommends in the Brewer’s diet. Now, Dr. Brewer‘s website is called the Blue Ribbon Baby Pages, but that website has been archived now so it’s not an active website, but you can still find it if you search “Blue Ribbon Baby Pages”. That website is directly authored by him. There are lots of spreadsheets and checklists and things like that if you want to follow that diet because what that diet does is, it helps your body increase the blood volume that it needs to sustain a healthy pregnancy. Now my mind is spinning in all of these different ways because there were things I did in my second pregnancy to avoid getting preeclampsia and a lot of it-- I didn’t follow the Brewer diet as described here, but a lot of it was following these recommendations. Plenty of water, making sure I am staying hydrated, not limiting my salt intake, and eat lots of protein, especially eggs. I ate eggs like crazy when I was pregnant with my second. It is just really, really interesting. I know that-- trust me. I was just sitting here eating a pint of Ben & Jerry’s ice cream when we were recording our last episode, so I am definitely not the epitome of health. And so, it can feel overwhelming. I know especially when you’re pregnant you’re like, “Oh my gosh. Do I really have to make all these diet changes? Am I going to ruin my baby if I don’t follow this very strict diet? Or how much water do I need to drink or how much protein do I need to eat?” It is so easy to get overwhelmed, right? Because I know that I do and I am not even pregnant right now. But this is the thing. The Brewer diet is a nice, healthy diet. It goes right along with the guidelines that are recommended to just maintain health overall. It follows what ACOG’s recommendations are for a healthy pregnancy. It just expands on that a little bit more and there is some really solid evidence to support following this diet drastically improves birth outcomes. But you don’t have to go making all these big changes. You don’t have to go from eating a pint of Ben & Jerry’s a day-- no, I don’t eat a pint a day. Eating Ben & Jerry’s ice cream and to a complete 180 never eating anything with sugar in it ever again.Just making small changes in your diet, incorporating more nutrient-rich foods like healthy meat, healthy fats, lots of green, leafy vegetables, and vitamin A, and vitamin C supplements are going to do better. So focus on adding things into your diet more than you focus on taking things out would be my advice from a not-so-healthy mom to maybe other not-so-healthy moms right now. Meagan, what would you add? Are you completely embarrassed by my nutritional advice?Meagan: No, no. I think it is so important. This is not in conjunction with preeclampsia. It is in conjunction with how we as women in the world sometimes, our minds just go because being skinny, and not gaining too much weight, and bouncing back, and being back in our jeans and-- you know what I mean? There’s so much pressure in a lot of things. So when it comes to VBAC, I have personally had clients be like, “Well, my baby was so big last time and I was overweight, so I had better not eat.” I had a client specifically, one client that literally starved herself her entire pregnancy because she said, “I can’t have a big baby because if I have a big baby, I won’t have a VBAC, and then they won’t let me, and if they think my baby is big, then I won’t, and if I gain too much weight, then they will just tell me I am fat, and then I can’t have my VBAC,” and I am just like--Julie: Did she have high blood pressure or preeclampsia or gestational diabetes?Meagan: So the crazy thing, she actually did have a repeat Cesarean. Her body tapped out because it wasn’t fueled. And so, it’s just in general. We need to fuel our bodies. But in life, because there’s so much pressure to be skinny and all of these things, right? And not gain too much weight, we cut, like you were saying, we cut out our nutrients that are insanely needed. And so, if we are cutting it out before we even get pregnant, because a lot of people are like, “Oh, I want to lose this weight before I get pregnant,” and then they get pregnant, and then they were cutting out these things and not adding those necessary things like the Brewer diet talks about, it is important to understand how it can truly impact you, your baby, your outcome, etc. We don’t know the exact cause of preeclampsia, but there are things that we were going over and were shared in this story. There are things that we can do to help that have been proven to help. And so, why not do these things and pay attention to these things? I just think it is so important in general. Pregnancy, not pregnant, preeclampsia, diabetes, anything. Fuel your body because your body gives you so much and we are asking so much of our bodies every day to perform. If we cut what it needs, it is not fair to ask that. Does that make sense? Is that silly to say?Julie: Yeah. I just think like-- I have anxiety. Everybody knows that by now. I have a very anxious mind. I just think of when my mind gets anxious, it is because there are things going on that are influencing it, right? I liken that to not feeding your body. It’s like those outside things influencing my anxious mind.Not fueling your body does not allow your body to perform well. It doesn’t allow it to function effectively, just like your mind. With my mind, with my anxiety, when my anxiety is high, the whole world is falling apart. It doesn’t even matter if nothing is a big deal, but everything feels like a big deal. And so, when you are depriving your body of those nutrients, even the smallest thing your body is working hard to do will feel like a big deal to it. It can exhaust it and it can make it harder for it to do normal things when it's most important thing to do is growing your baby.Meagan: Yeah. I love everything that Breana was talking about. It doesn’t matter who you are. Check it out. Just check it out. It doesn’t do you any harm to check it out.Julie: Yeah, you can just Google “The Brewer Diet.” It is Brewer. I know we say Brewer’s because I like it to be possessive, but it is by Tom Brewer.Meagan: It’s because, in my head, I think Brewer’s Yeast, so I say Brewer’s. It is Brewer.Julie: Brewer. B-R-E-W-E-R. Take a look at that. It looks like a really good, healthy diet. So, good thing to do. Take care of your body. Keep nourishing those babies and improve your chances of lots of different birth outcomes.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC LinkSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Alysa is a prime example of how every birth is its own unique story. With her first birth, Alysa had a very medicalized vaginal birth. During her second pregnancy, Alysa unexpectedly developed placenta previa, resulting in weeks of hospital bed rest and a very necessary Cesarean. After knowing firsthand how unpredictable birth can be, Alysa’s third birth was exactly the empowering, unmedicated VBAC she had envisioned. We also talk about placenta previa and accreta-- what it is, how severe it can be, and what the chances are that it will happen to you based on the most current research. Additional linksHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for ParentsEpisode 124: Elyssa’s CBAC + Birthing in a PandemicExpecting and Empowered Fitness GuidesNational Accreta Foundation Full transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar and to eliminate false starts and filler words. Meagan: Happy Wednesday. It is The VBAC Link with you today, Meagan and Julie, and of course, we have another amazing story to share with you today. We have our friend, Alyssa, on the line. She actually-- we just were talking about this. She has actually been with us from the beginning, which is so fun to have someone that we recognize and we know. She posts and everything, so thank you, Alyssa, for being so amazing on our social media outlets. We are so excited to have you here today. She did have a VBAC and it was after a situation that was unexpected. It is placenta previa. We are going to talk about that as well after she shares her story because this is something that is really necessary to have a Cesarean. It truly is. And so, we want to talk a little bit more about that, what it means, what it looks like, and also touch on placenta accreta and talk about the two differences.Review of the WeekMeagan: Before we jump into the story, of course, we have a Review of the Week. Julie will be sharing that with you today.Julie: Hey, hey. I am so excited. I really get excited when we interview people that have been with us from the very beginning.Meagan: It is so fun.Julie: I recognize Alysa’s Instagram handle and I am like, “I know who you are.” It’s so exciting. But do you know what is also really funny? The review I picked to read for this episode is from-- remember back when we shared my client Elyssa’’s story? Elyssa’s VBAC story? This review from Apple Podcasts is about Elyssa’s story and now, after we read the review about Elyssa’s story, we are going to hear Alysa‘s story.Meagan: Elyssa, we have Alysa.Alysa: Perfect.Julie: So don’t be confused. But this is from Cristin Anna on Apple Podcasts and the title is “Thank you for sharing Elyssa’s story.” She says, “Today I listened to the episode when Elyssa shared her story and I found myself identifying with her story so much, and I cried multiple times as she described how she felt, as it was word-for-word the feelings I felt after my first birth. I planned for a home birth, ended up going two weeks late, and ended up having to have a C-section at the hospital after finally going into labor, but my son’s heartbeat started dropping during contractions.”“Thank you for allowing Elyssa to share her story. The fact that she was able to share her second Cesarean and the fact that it wasn’t like the first one gives me hope that even if for some reason my VBAC is not successful, I can still have a better experience than my first birth.I struggled with feeling like a failure after my first birth and hearing from her, (and from you guys) that she did what she needed to do for her baby, and she is not a failure, but was still able to exercise her own power during her labor, was all so encouraging. I think reminding women who are trying for a VBAC that they aren’t a failure because they weren’t able to have a vaginal birth the first time around is so important and so healing for them. Thank you for empowering women and also encouraging them to do what is needed for their baby.”And I love that. I love that. We have talked about before how important it is for us to share all of the stories about VBAC with you including VBAC attempts-- I don’t know, for lack of a better word-- that don’t end in a vaginal birth, repeat Cesarean stories, and we even have a couple of uterine rupture stories. We want you to be prepared for all of the different outcomes that your birth could take. And so, we really appreciate that review from Cristin and we obviously appreciate Alysa for sharing her story with us. And now, we are going to hear from Alysa.Alysa’s storyAlysa: All right. I just have to say I am so grateful to be with you both. I said before we started that it is just surreal to be talking to you both since I have listened to all of the birth stories. It has meant so much to me through my pregnancy and leading up to this third birth of mine. I guess I will start with just a little bit about my first, and obviously second birth, and mostly my third birth, but my first I just wanted to touch on. I did have a vaginal birth with my son, but I was a very typical first-time mom and I just was like, “I will go with the flow and see what happens.” I think for some people that can be okay, but looking back, I wish I knew more. I wish I had a podcast like this that I had listened to or something to just know that--I knew there was something inside of me that wanted something different for my birth, but I was too afraid to go against the norm or to not be a good patient, which is so silly. It’s funny because I myself am a healthcare provider, but I struggle with that sometimes of not wanting to disappoint my providers. I realize now more than ever that that’s not why they’re there. I wouldn’t want my patients to feel that way. So anyway, I had a vaginal birth, but it was very medicalized. I was induced starting at 0 centimeters at 37 weeks for not really great reasons. I ended up getting an epidural and I pushed for almost three hours. He was born. He was healthy and it was great, but it just wasn’t what I wanted. So fast forward with my daughter, my second birth. I was so gung-ho. I was going to have a natural birth. I was going to have an unmedicated hospital birth, and I was reading all of the books, and doing all the things, and I got the absolute surprise of my life with that pregnancy. At 20 weeks we did the anatomy ultrasound and they said my placenta was low-lying, which is actually very, very common at the 20-week mark.So my doctor said, “Don’t worry about it at all. 90% of the time it moves out of the way by the time you deliver, so don’t even stress.” I looked up all of the research on it and it matched what she said so I was like, “Yep. I’m not going to even worry about this.” I exercised. I went on a vacation. We did all of the normal things not worrying about it.But then at 28 weeks, I was actually at work. Right in the middle of standing up to examine a patient of mine, I felt a gush and then a subsequent gush. I excused myself from the room and I thought initially it was going to be my water, but I looked down and I saw blood pretty much down to mid-thigh.Meagan: Wow. Scary.Alysa: Yeah. It was terrifying. The only saving grace was that because I was 28 weeks, I could feel her move so much. I am a relatively petite person, and so I could see her move and I could feel her move, so I got that comfort right away of knowing like, “Okay. She is still doing okay.” But it was a lot of blood. And so, we obviously rushed right to the hospital right up to OB and I was admitted for five days. I lost about a unit of blood, but it stopped and it slowed. I got the steroids. I got the whole thing. NICU came in and talked about delivering, but they were able to keep her in there and she did okay. Eventually, I went home with the direction that I could only be within a 20-minute radius of the hospital and, yeah. So we just kind of laid low and then eventually at just shy of 34 weeks, I had my second bleed and my doctor said, “If that happens, this is where you stay now.” So then I stayed in the hospital, had another bleed in the hospital, but eventually did make it to 36 weeks which was the goal, and delivered her by Cesarean. And so like you said, it was a very necessary Cesarean, but it doesn’t certainly mean it was easy by any means.Meagan: Right.Alysa: I mean, I had a vision of what my birth was going to be like and it was obviously-- I went from wanting a very hands-off birth to having one of the most hands-on experiences you can have. Being in the hospital for a total of about four weeks over that pregnancy was incredibly hard emotionally, but also just being constantly in the world that things are being done to you was really hard. It was super hard. It made me not want to be anywhere close to that situation again. And so, I knew right away that if I was going to have another birth, I had to have a VBAC and I had to do everything in my power to make sure that was going to happen.I really thought for me, that was going to be out-of-hospital. That was confirmed when I had an annual physical about a year later and I talked to one of the providers about having a VBAC. I started asking some of the questions really that you guys layout and your resources about how to see if your provider is VBAC tolerant or VBAC friendly. I very quickly found out they were tolerant. I mean, I asked about going past 39 weeks and they were like, “Oh no, no, no, no. But yeah, yeah. We can let you try.” And induction, they just didn’t even really-- yeah.Meagan: They weren’t following evidence-based practices.Alysa: No. No, and it was very clear to me that if I attempted to have a VBAC with them, it was not going to happen. So that day I had that appointment, I called-- there is a wonderful, wonderful birth center in my area called Authentic Birth Center, and so I called them and said, “Hey, do you guys even take VBAC people?” They were like, “Yeah, of course.” So I was like, “This is what it is going to be.”So I got pregnant and started seeing the midwives and they were absolutely wonderful. As you know and you have talked about in other podcasts, this third baby, I had my son and it was COVID, so COVID was part of this journey as well. But I was so, so, so, so grateful that prior to COVID I had already started care with them because during that time with all of the restrictions that were happening in hospitals, there were so many women who were trying to switch it up and change to an out-of-hospital birth. The fact that I was already with them was amazing because they were really struggling to keep up with the amount of women who wanted to switch out of the hospital.Julie: We saw that a lot here too. A ton of our clients switched. It was just nuts.Alysa: Mhmm. I can’t imagine. Those midwives were probably just so busy. They have to try to care, they want to care for everyone well, so it’s not like they can take every single person. I just have to say too, and I told my midwives this, but I am so, so grateful that while COVID was going on during my pregnancy and birth, it was never a huge part of my story. I am just so grateful for that-- that they still focused on my healthy pregnancy, my healthy body, this healthy baby and continued to make every appointment about that, about us, and about our care, and about that well-rounded care that midwives are so well-known for. It was so empowering and it was everything I hoped it would be. So I’m just-- I am so grateful.I did have a lot of anxiety through the pregnancy of feeling like I had all these hurdles to get over in order to make it to my VBAC, which I am sure a lot of women feel with any VBAC, but at the ultrasound, here I am thinking, “Okay, I just have to-- the placenta. Please, please let the placenta not be in the way,” because I knew that there was no changing that and thank God at 20 weeks it wasn’t. It was seven whole centimeters away and I was so, so, so grateful.Julie: A great distance.Alysa: Yes, exactly. Every step of the pregnancy was just another hurdle to overcome in my mind. I got to do the glucose tolerance and that was good. My blood pressure kept being good. Baby was head down, and so everything was just lining up.I guess that brings me towards the end of the pregnancy. I can honestly say that the difference between this pregnancy and my previous two is, I just did so much to prepare between listening to you guys, and general mindfulness, and staying educated on what was true, and then also, I was so physically active. There is a wonderful exercise program called Expecting and Empowered that I absolutely adore and they have a postpartum program too. That helped a ton.I reread all the typical birth books that were just so helpful too, but definitely towards the end, just lots of mindfulness and lots of visualizing. Visualizing my birth and lots of really just digging into God’s word and his faithfulness. As a Christian, that was a big part of my journey too of trusting in His plan and His amazing way He created women to give birth. So, yeah. I guess that leads me to birth. I think I stayed pretty patient. I think the main reason for that too was I was just so grateful to have a really normal pregnancy. I got to all these points in pregnancy where I was like, “Wow. I was in the hospital at this point,” or “I had already had my daughter at this point.” It was just so amazing to be past those dates. So I had my son-- I was induced at 37 weeks and my daughter at 36. So once I got past that 37 weeks, I was like, “I have never been this pregnant.” It was also exciting for me in a way. Of course I, like every woman, was ready at the end physically and emotionally, but I was overall just very grateful.But, yeah. I guess that brings us to the week. The week of my due date, I had days on and off where I would get contractions. I would get contractions, they would be 10 minutes apart, and then 8 minutes, and 10 minutes, and I am like, “Oh, maybe this is turning into something,” and then, of course, I would fizzle out. Then on the Monday prior to my due date, my due date was on a Wednesday, I had an appointment and I was getting a lot of contractions during the appointment. When they were listening to baby, his heart rate was going down during some of the contractions and they didn’t love that. They were like, “How much have you eaten and drank today?” And I hadn’t. I was super slammed at work. Obviously, with COVID, I am a PA. I am a healthcare provider, so COVID was just so stressful for many reasons, but just mentally stressful of everything was going on.So they said, “Why don’t you come back later so we can just take a listen again?” And so, I drank a bunch, and ate a bunch, and came back later and they were reassured by that. I got to my due date and I was just doing all the things. I was exercising and going on walks, doing squats. I was drinking red raspberry leaf tea. I had been doing dates for weeks in advance. And again, just really trying to prep my mind more than anything. I kept thinking, “If I am so stressed at work, baby is not going to come when I’m stressed. So I need to do everything possible to reduce stress.”And so, I had decided that week that no matter what, this week was going to be my last week of work. The following week, I was going to be 41 weeks and I’m like, “I just need to not have so much stress.” And so again, that week I had a couple days where I would get some contractions and they would fizzle out. I thought, “Okay. It’s going to happen. Everything that my body is doing, is doing something.” I just need to be happy that it’s doing something. My last day of work was Thursday and while I was at work, I was, again, having some of those contractions, but I did not think anything of it. This was the day past my due date. I was 40+1. I was having some contractions on and off, but obviously, I was working, so it wasn’t a big deal. It wasn’t enough to make me stop or really even think that much about it. I literally joked with my coworker like, “I bet since this is my last day of work, when I leave today, I’m going to have this baby.”I got home at around 6:00 p.m. that night. I walked in the door and I had a contraction that was different. I was like, “That was different.” I sat down at dinner with my husband and my kids. I was noticing, but I didn’t want to say anything quite yet. But I knew it was different. We got the kids to bed and I told my husband, “I think this is it, so let’s start gathering some things.” He’s like, “Don’t you want to actually know if this is it?” I am like, “No. I really think this is it.” He did not understand how you can just know.Meagan: I swear they never believe. You’re like, “Are you sure?” I am like, “Yeah. I am positive.”Alysa: Exactly. So right after, I called my midwife and she is like, “Great. Just let things get longer, stronger, closer together. Keep doing your thing.” I went to the bathroom and definitely had more of that bloody show, so I was really encouraged that this was it. So I was like full-on, just packing, getting everything ready, getting all this, and, like I said, this was probably 7:30, 8:00 p.m. Around 8, I finally got everything I wanted together, so I decided, “I’m going to rest.” I laid down on the couch and I told my husband, “Use this contraction timer app. I will tap you,” just so we’d know what was going on.As soon as I attempted to lay my head on the pillow on my couch, pop. Like, just a major pop. Water gush. I hopped off the couch like a ninja because I did not want to get my couch all messy.Meagan: You wanted to save it. I would have done the same thing.Alysa: Yes, exactly. I went into the bathroom and jumped in the tub. It was definitely a lot of water. But the water was-- it did have some meconium in it. It was kind of yellowish. And so, that was the first time I was stressed. Prior to that, I was like, “Everything is exactly how it should be going,” and I felt like I was really handling things well, but then I felt stressed.I called my midwife right away and I told her what was going on and I was like, “Honestly, I am just really stressed out.” All she said to me was, “Okay. I am not stressed out.” It was just perfect. Her response was perfect.Meagan: Exactly what you needed.Alysa: Yes. Yes. And you know, she has had a couple of lines like that through my pregnancy. One other time, I broke down to her about how I felt like there was no way everything was going to go right. I felt like there was no way. Was I being irresponsible with having an out-of-hospital birth after the last birth I had? You know, all these things. All these fears we all have. She just said, “I wouldn’t absolutely love my job, I wouldn’t love doing what I do every single day if I had fear. I have no fear when it comes to you and I love doing my job. And so, we wouldn’t be here and we wouldn’t have you as a patient if anything about you made us afraid.” It was just wonderful. So, she is wonderful.But back to that night. So since my water broke, we decided to call over a friend so that if we needed to leave quickly, we could. My parents were on their way down too. They live about a couple of hours away. They came over and I was just swaying through the contractions. I was handling things really well. I felt really good. It was really great to be able to. I had really wanted to experience that because I really didn’t get that with my other births.And so, yeah. I would rock and sway through the contractions. I remember right before we left I went upstairs and my kids were sleeping, and I just checked on both of them and then had a contraction right in their bedroom. It was just, yeah. It was great. I walked outside just to get some fresh air. It was the most beautiful night. It was probably 75°, stars in the sky. It was beautiful. We went through some contractions outside too and then we decided, I decided, “I want to go.” I think at that point, contractions were probably three to four minutes apart and getting close to that one minute but I am like, “I don’t-- I have heard horror stories about the car and so, the sooner we can get there, I think I will feel better.”Everyone is right about the car. The car was so tough because there’s just no way to get comfortable, but like, again from your podcast, it was so helpful to hear from different people what they had done and I did just that. I got on my knees and I faced backward in the passenger seat because being on your bottom is not fun when you’re having a contraction.Meagan: No.Alysa: We got to the birth center and we walked outside for just a little bit more before even going in. I think that was my biggest thing is I just didn’t want to pull everyone together too quickly or something. I didn’t want to waste our time or something. Again, that goes back to me not wanting to be a needy patient or something, which is silly in hindsight. But, I wanted it to be right when we got there. So we walked outside before we actually went in for a little while and then a few more, and then I thought, “Okay. I really need to pee. We have got to get in there. Let’s do this.”We got in there. My midwife was there. A student-midwife was there and then I had a birth photographer who is also a doula. She wasn’t technically acting as my doula, but she also said, “I am a doula, so anything I can help with along the way if you would like me to, I will.” And so, that was wonderful. So I didn’t really need someone to be super hands-on. My husband was really good about that. Plus, I didn’t really need that a lot in labor and in birth, but she was just wonderful support in other ways.So, yeah. We got to the birth center. They checked baby and everything was good. This was a surprise, also. I did not know if “he” was “he” at the time. So we got into the birth center-- let me look at my notes here. I think that was at 10, 10:30, yeah. We got in at 10:30. Everything was good and they just let you be, which was again, so incredibly different than, obviously, my other experiences in the hospital. They were just like, “You’re doing great. You keep doing your thing. Everything is looking really great.” And so, we just continued to labor.We walked around the birth center. I would squat with contractions and sway with contractions and overall, I felt like I was coping really, really well. There was that one point where I knew based on the way I was feeling and where the contractions were at, I knew I had to be pretty far along, but I also doubted myself for a second. I thought, “There’s no way that I can be doing this well. I am not strong enough. There’s no way. There is no way. I am probably 3 centimeters. I don’t know.” They didn’t check me. They didn’t say they needed to check me and I didn’t want to be checked at that time, so we just didn’t. We decided to forego that. But then I am like, “No. I really do think this is going exactly the way it should go.”I talked to my doula a little bit about what I should be doing, like if I should be trying to push things along and doing a bunch of squats, or lunges, or different things, or if I should try to rest and she was like, “If you feel like you can rest, you should rest.” So I laid down for maybe five minutes and then I wasn’t loving that. But she just really reminded me too, during contractions, just to really relax my pelvic floor as much as possible, so during contractions then, that was exactly what I would do, which is a really odd feeling because most of us as women are used to holding that in. You know, like with coughing, or sneezing, or things like that, or keeping that tight for different reasons.Yeah, so truly just letting the floor feel loose was crazy. But it was also-- this is another thing that I can totally speak for the exercise program that I referred to before, Expecting and Empowered, is every single one of their-- you do three different exercises a week, or days a week that you were supposed to do their program, and they always have pelvic floor exercises. They helped me so much be able to actually target those muscles during birth which was awesome.I did that a lot and I had music playing. You know, just some Christian music that I love, worship music playing, which was really wonderful. I remember things were getting pretty intense and I had these cards that just had different scripture on them. I remember reading through those right before things got really intense. It was just what I needed at that time to really feel like, “No. You can do this.” One of my favorite ones about, “Pain may endure for the night, but joy comes in the morning” and I just remember thinking like, “That’s where I am in right now and so soon I’m going to meet this baby and there’s going to be so much joy.”My midwife came back in. They watched me have a couple of contractions where I was definitely vocalizing through the contractions and they were definitely intense. They said, “I think it would be a good time to get into the tub.” My husband tells me later that he literally thought they were crazy. He was like, “Why are we getting in the tub? We have like 6 to 12 more hours of this.” He, of course, is thinking of our first birth and again, also thinks there’s no way this can go as fast as it’s going.So I get into the tub and that was-- I got into the tub and I was only in the tub for about 20 minutes until he was born, actually. But I got into the tub. Everyone asks me if the tub was helpful and I think it was. The hard part to tell-- the reason I say I think it was is because it was hard to sometimes tell if the water was super helpful because at the same time they were by far the most intense contractions. I mean, transition is. And so, while I was in the tub, I very much felt out of control. It was very much the first time where I was like, “I could crawl out of my skin.”Meagan: Some people say if you are in there before the transition hits, it is more manageable, but man, I would be with you. I was in the tub and I was like, “I just need to move.”Julie: And I loved the tub. I loved it. My whole labor was in the tub. Birthed in the tub, all of it. It’s so funny how it’s so different for everybody.Alysa: Yeah. Well, and I think if I had another, I would probably get into the tub sooner. I think I didn’t want to use it too soon and then it wouldn’t help me or something, but I think I would get into the tub sooner, like you said, Julie. But you know, it was that moment where I said, “I can’t do this.” I was like, I told my husband, I am like, “Joe, I don’t think I can do this.” He was like, “You’re doing this.” I remember having a very vivid thought in my head like, “Alysa, the only way is through. This is it. There’s no going back. There’s no changing where I’m at right now and so, just try to lean into that.” My doula, like I said, was also taking pictures, but she saw me again have a very intense contraction. My midwives had left. I mean, they were literally outside the door, but they were like, “You know what? I am going to go grab the midwives,” my doula said. Of course, they just know. They have done this so many times. They have seen so much unmedicated birth that they just-- they know. They came back in and my midwife was like, “You’re going to meet your baby so soon,” and seriously, I still was in complete disbelief that this was actually happening and the way everything had gone.I did get pretty nauseous at one point and I thought I was going to throw up. I did that with my son with my first birth, but I didn’t throw up. They had peppermint oil and I was able to work through that. I’m glad I didn’t throw up, but that’s a pretty normal feeling, I think. And then, the craziest feeling I’ve ever had in my entire life is when my body started pushing. I say that I had no part, zero part in pushing my baby out. My body completely took over. All I can say, like the way I have described it to people is that it literally felt like a vice had a hold of my insides and was rocketing something out of my vagina. It was the craziest feeling I have ever felt and it was both an intense-amazing, but also a scary, out-of-control feeling. But yes, the fetal-ejection reflex was insane. When my body started pushing, I was like, “I am pushing,” and I screamed louder than I have ever screamed. My throat was literally sore from just like letting out this unbelievable roar. I remember I pushed. I had a little bit of a break and I was like, “I’m sorry for being so loud.”My midwife was like, “Don’t ever be sorry. Just think about tennis players like Serena Williams, Venus Williams, they roar when they are doing their sport. You roar.”Meagan: I love that.Alysa: I was grateful for her, yeah. But yes, two big pushes, like I said, which were completely my body pushing in two minutes. I started pushing at 12:29 a.m. I was 40+3 and at 12:31, he was born. His head came out and I said, “Come and get him out. Get him out. Get him out. Get him out,” and then the rest of his body came out and he came right up on my chest. It was incredible. My husband was right there next to me. I looked over at him and I just kept saying, “I can’t believe I just did that.” I had visualized my birth so much over the previous 10 months, but especially in the last month leading up to my birth, and the fact that it had gone so much of the way I had visualized was-- I mean, I felt so grateful. But also, I think it was telling that that was helpful. Not that that happens for everyone, obviously. I know full well things don’t always go as planned or as you want them to, but in this case, it really did. I was just overwhelmed. Overwhelmed with joy and gratefulness.We were just hanging out a little bit and my husband again later tells me that he was like, “Are we going to find out if it’s a boy or a girl?” because I was just so wrapped up in what had happened, and snuggling this new baby, and I didn’t even care. I was like, “I don’t even care.” I didn’t even think of whether he was a boy or a girl. But yes, we took a look and he was a little boy. 6 pounds 1 ounce which also, I was like, “What in the world? He is so tiny.” He was smaller than my other two and I had carried him three weeks longer than any of my other kids.Meagan: Crazy.Alysa: It just shows how crazy that is. But my little peanut, Silas Cecil was born on August 14th. It was just so cool. The birth center experience was just so amazing, being able to chill there and truly have that golden hour of hanging out with him, and looking him over, and then getting out and just snuggling in bed, and then they just let us be for a while. Then, they came back and did all of the checks and measurements right there, right on the bed. It literally felt like family was around me and it was so wonderful. So much so that I-- you know, I still follow the social media pages of the birth center that I was at, and whenever I see women who are close to their due date, or in labor, or whatever, I almost have this like-- I am jealous of them in a way. I know that sounds crazy, but just because I know they are about to experience something, yes, hard, but really amazing.I felt like after my first, and not that either of my first births were horrible or traumatic. I am so grateful for, especially with my second birth, the medicine that was there that really, truly in years past-- well, decades, centuries past, we could have not lived through, so I am grateful for those advances. But just to be able to experience the beauty of truly no interventions was so awesome and I am just so grateful.Julie: That’s incredible. There are parts of your stories that I can really relate to. I really love when you said when you got past the point of your longest pregnancy, you were so excited to be pregnant that long because you had never made it to that point. With my first VBAC baby, I was like that. My first was born via Cesarean at 36 weeks on the dot and when I got to 36 weeks and 1 day, I almost let out a breath, like, released air. Like, “Okay. I made it. We can do this. I am good now.” I am like, “I have never been this pregnant before. This is so cool.” People would ask me, “How are you feeling? Are you just so miserable?” And I am 39 weeks pregnant-- well, I didn’t quite make it to 39 that time, but I was 38 weeks pregnant, waddling around, and I’d be like, “No. I am just so happy to still be pregnant,” and people just looked at me so strange.Alysa: Yep.Julie: It’s just really funny what perspective you have when you have dealt with or been through a birth with complications. Every single milestone you hit, like you said, gives you another release of air.Alysa: It does.Julie: Until all of the things are gone and you can just enter into your birth space worry-free and without any other type of concerns. So I was totally right there with you when you were talking about that.Alysa: Yeah, it was. I feel the exact same way.Placenta Previa and AccretaMeagan: So Alyssa had placenta previa. Placenta previa is-- I don’t know if anyone has ever had this, too. I am going to backtrack even more. At the 20-week ultrasound, one of the things they look at is where the placenta is lying. If you have ever heard about a low-lying placenta, it’s likely that they are looking at where it is in conjunction with your cervix. Sometimes the placenta attaches low by the cervix and sometimes it even attaches over the cervix. Which, the cervix has to open, and dilate, and efface in order to get a baby out vaginally. So if you can understand what that means if it’s covering the cervix, you know, this is our baby’s home, and how they breathe and eat, and everything. And so, if it is covering the cervix, it is a true need for a Cesarean because they cannot deliver a baby through a cervix that is covered with a placenta. Sometimes when it is low, it’s low, but it’s not covering the cervix quite yet or it’s really, really close. But then as pregnancy continues, and the uterus grows and stretches, and the baby grows, it goes up with the uterus. That happens a lot of the time, in fact, most of the time, but once in a while, like Alysa‘s case, it did not. She had accreta.She mentioned bleeding and that’s one of the number-one signs that there are accreta issues. If you have ever experienced anything where you are experiencing blood like that or things like that, don’t hesitate to go in immediately and get things checked out. I’m so proud of you, Alysa, that you were able to keep that baby in nice, safe, and sound until your goal because that is hard work and it’s amazing. So, congrats on that.And then, so there is previa and then there is accreta. Julie, you may have to help me out because you are the statistic guru. But accreta is when it is actually, it is partially in and grown into the scar of the uterus--Julie: The uterus. It doesn’t have anything to do with the scar.Meagan: That’s true. It’s not the scar. It is just in the uterus. It has grown in, sorry. Cesarean moms have a higher risk of it because we have had cuts. So that is where my mind is going.But, yeah. It grows into it. That can be very, very dangerous as well. Do you know the stats, Julie, on how many people get accreta? Just stats?Julie: Yeah, I actually have some information up right here on my computer right now. I want to direct you guys to a really good foundation called The National Accreta Foundation and its website is preventaccreta.org. It’s spelled a-c-c-r-e-t-a, accreta. Preventaccreta.org and their whole mission is to reduce the Cesarean rate, which in turn, reduces the chance of having accreta.And so, it goes over a lot about the statistics about Cesareans. 87% of women that had a Cesarean will go on and have a repeat Cesarean which increases the risks for placenta accreta in future pregnancies. Now, 1 in 272 births will develop placenta accreta. Placenta accreta ranges in severity. It can be just barely growing into the uterine lining and in the most severe cases, it actually can grow through the uterus, and outside of the uterus, and start attaching to other organs, which is when it is very, very dangerous. The cases of a placenta accreta have actually quadrupled since the 1980s, which is really interesting because you can see the rates of accreta increase right along with the Cesarean rate as the Cesarean rate rises.Meagan: Cesarean rates, mhmm.Julie: Right. In 1980, it was 1 in 1200 pregnancies that had accreta, and in 2016, 1 in 272. So quite a big difference.Alysa: I know that the risk of previa after a Cesarean is 1 to 6 times higher and the reason, like you said, is exactly right, Maegan. Because of that scar, no matter where the scar is, almost all Cesarean scars are lower or closer to the cervix.Meagan: Right, the cervix.Alysa: And so, when the placenta first wants to place itself somewhere in the uterus, it tends to want to go to that spot where that scar is. Normally the placenta, the best place is to be far away from the cervix because that’s where the best blood supply is. And so, when it’s down there, it’s not a great place for the placenta to be in general, but also yes, like you said, as the cervix changes and stretches throughout pregnancy, that’s where that risk of bleeds goes up, too.Julie: Well, and I have a source from ICAN right here. We have a little graphic that we made on the risks of C-section with each Cesarean. Your risk of placenta accreta after your first C-section is .24%, so 1 in 417. Just listen to these numbers. They increase exponentially. Instead of saying one-in-so-many, I’m just going to say percentage, okay? Just for full transparency. After your first C-section, your risk of accreta is .24%. After your second C-section, your risk of accreta is .31%. Not too big of a jump there, .24% to .31%. Your third C-section, it doubles to .57%, so half a percent, which is actually bigger than your chance of rupture I will say there. But by the time you have your fourth Cesarean, your risk of having placenta accreta is 2.13%. 1 in 41 people who have four or more Cesareans will have placenta accreta.Meagan: Pretty wild.Julie: Which it obviously necessitates, makes necessary-- it is necessary to have another C-section because it is not safe to deliver vaginally at that point. It is not safe for you just to contract at that point, so you are at a higher risk because of that, just because of having that major surgery. But also, it’s a big risk for the mom and the baby. A big increase in postpartum hemorrhage for mother, higher instances of loss of life for mother and loss of infant life as well with those.And so, when you are considering VBAC versus repeat Cesarean, look into the complications that come with each subsequent Cesareans. Now, some providers will say, “Oh, I don’t do VBAC, but I am only going to let you have four Cesareans because it is dangerous to have more than that.” But then there are some providers-- I know one in our state who told a friend of mine, “Oh yeah, I am not worried about your family size. I have done eight Cesareans on someone before.” I am like, “Eight Cesareans?” My jaw hit the floor. I just can’t even imagine. I can’t even imagine.Meagan: Well, and something too that I just want to point out to you is, a lot of the times providers won’t do VBAC because of the “risks”, right? But when you say, “Well, what are the risks of Cesareans?” They’re, “Oh, there are no risks.” Just this right here alone with each pregnancy, because this can happen with pregnancy, right? And so, then it can cause issues. I mean, look at what was happening with Alysa. She had to fight to keep her baby in. Just keep in mind that it happens and there are risks. If a provider-- (dog growling) oh my gosh. My dog really wants the mailman driving around out there. There really are risks associated with both. And so, f you ever have a provider that says there are no risks for a VBAC and there are no risks for a Cesarean, then maybe question them a little bit.Julie: Well, and I think a big part of that is the biggest risks that providers will see with a Cesarean is when they are doing the Cesarean which is your increased risk of blood loss, right? You will need a blood transfusion. But they see the immediate consequences of a Cesarean which aren’t as significant as the long-term effects of having multiple Cesareans.Alysa: Correct, yeah.Julie: And so, you have a provider that sees you and he does your Cesarean, but then you might have another provider for your next pregnancy that you get accreta and your provider that did your C-section might never even know you developed accreta. And so, why would they not be afraid to do eight Cesareans? Because they don’t see the long-term consequences that come with that. I’m sure they’re educated in that. I am sure they learned it in OB school, but when it’s not right in front of your face, it’s harder to keep that in the forefront of your mind.Alysa: Absolutely.Meagan: Well, thank you so much for sharing your story with us and letting us talk about this topic on your story because it’s important to know the differences. It’s important to know the risks. We are so happy for you that you got the birth that you wanted and you deserved. I mean really, you had a very medicalized, and then you had a necessary Cesarean, and then you had an unmedicated VBAC, and so you have a little bit of everything. It’s fun to hear your story and hear that not every birth is alike. This is one thing that I mention to my clients. People are like, “Oh, I really want to deliver at home, but because it’s my first, I want to see how things go.” I always just think to myself, “Go where you feel most comfortable.”Julie: “Just in case”Meagan: Go where you feel most comfortable and where you can picture that birth because just because it’s your first birth doesn’t mean it will likely be different for your second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, eighth, you know?Alysa: Yes. Yes.Meagan: Your story right there is a prime example of how different each birth can go.Alysa: Yes. I want to say to that too, like, I would encourage anyone who wants something, don’t be afraid if you want something. I have had friends who were like, “I could never do that. I could never have an unmedicated birth,” and I am like, “You know, you could, but you have to want to.”Meagan: Exactly.Alysa: That’s the only difference between me and you. I am not anyone special. But if you want to and you feel like you want to, then do it. I think, maybe it was you guys who said it or I heard it somewhere else, you would never walk up to the start of a marathon having never trained and just being like, “Let’s see how this goes.”Meagan: Let’s do it, yeah.Alysa: And if you think it’s something you might want to do, you can do it. Just surround yourself with the people, and the knowledge, and the resources, like you guys, to accomplish those goals. I mean, it’s okay to want that and that doesn’t make you-- yeah. It’s okay to want that.Meagan: It doesn’t make you crazy. It doesn’t make you unrealistic. It doesn’t make you selfish to desire something different. It does not. So, I love it. I love that you went out and you got that something different and I love that it was all the good things, so thank you again.Julie: Absolutely.Alysa: Thank you guys so much.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We are SO excited to be joined today by our friend, Ali Levine. You will instantly feel her bright energy as she shares her awesome VBAC story with us.As a celebrity stylist and TV personality, Ali is no stranger to being in the limelight. With her first pregnancy, she had glamorous photoshoots, went to flashy events, and made a dreamy birth plan. When the natural water birth of her dreams quickly turned into a traumatic and invasive C-section, Ali was left confused, disappointed, and depressed. Ali drastically changed her approach to birth with her second pregnancy. Once she began researching VBAC, Ali was determined, intentional, and never looked back.Ali’s VBAC journey is one of a life-changing, spiritual awakening that we absolutely love and know you will love too. Additional linksHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for ParentsAli’s Podcast: Everything with Ali Levine Ali’s Instagram: @alilevinedesignEpisode sponsorThis episode is sponsored by our signature course, How to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for Parents. It is the most comprehensive VBAC preparation course in the world, perfectly packaged in an online, self-paced, video course. Together, Meagan and Julie have helped over 800 parents get the birth that they wanted, and we are ready to help you too. Head over to thevbaclink.com to find out more and sign up today.Sponsorship inquiriesInterested in sponsoring a The VBAC Link podcast? Find out more information here at advertisecast.com/TheVBACLink or email us at [email protected]. Full transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar and to eliminate false starts and filler words. Julie: You are listening to The VBAC Link podcast and we are so excited. We have been chitchatting with Ali today and she has a really amazing birth story to tell. We cannot wait for you to hear it. I am sitting here in my dentist’s parking lot. I literally just got done getting a filling. I had to rush out so that I could be on the call to listen to Ali’s story today. And so before we do that, Meagan is going to go ahead and give us a Review of the Week.Review of the WeekMeagan: Yes, I am. Oh my gosh, you guys are in for a treat. Ali is so fun. We have just been talking to her for like, five minutes and I am just already giddy to hear her story. She has got such a fun, live personality to her. It’s going to be awesome. This review is from jovannaf1 and in parentheses, it says “Germany.” So, I am wondering if she is either in Germany or her name is German.Julie: Ooh, that would be fun.Meagan: I know, right? Her title is “Love it.” This is from Apple Podcasts. It says, “Thank you so much for spreading such an important message, ladies. I am currently pregnant with my third child and your podcast has given me so much help and resources to know that VBA2C is possible. I find women’s stories so inspiring. Thank you.”And we want to thank you for leaving that awesome review and thank all of you who are listening and support us along this journey. This podcast has been absolutely so much fun. We are so excited to be able to continue offering all of the stories and continue to get submissions. We get submissions all the time and it is always just so awesome to read them even if they are not all shared. We read every single one. They are all incredible. So, thank you, thank you, thank you and if you haven’t already, please drop us a review. It means the world to us and we will read it on a podcast one day.Julie: Do you know what is so funny? My mom, I don’t even think she knows what a podcast is still. It is so funny because sometimes when we are chatting, I will say, “You know, Mom? Look. Look at these reviews. See? I am actually helping people with what I do. I am really making a difference.” She looks at me and she smiles and she is like, “I know you are.” I am like, “No but really, Mom. Look at all my reviews!”It’s just so fun. We really do love them and thank you guys for helping my mom know that I am actually helping people.Ali’s storyMeagan: Okay, so we are going to jump into this episode because like I said, you guys are in for a treat. You’re going to notice right off the bat, Ali is just such a fun person to listen to. She has had a VBAC and we just need to give her a little introduction if you would not mind, Ali. First of all, can I just tell you? Maybe you’ve heard this before. This is not VBAC-related. This is in regards to your Instagram page. I don’t know why. So, it is Ali Levine and I always read it like “Avril Lavigne” every single time. When you started to contact us, I was like, “Avril Lavigne is contacting us?!”Julie: “He was a skater boy. She said, ‘See you later boy.’”Meagan: I was like, “Oh my gosh.” So, it is not Avril Lavigne. It is Allie Levine and, is it LaVINE or LaVEEN?Ali: No, it’s LaVEEN. It is so funny because I have had this said to me several times. People will be like, “So, do you know her?” I am like, “I think she is a distant cousin.” Same with Adam. You know what I mean? It’s so funny. I have actually styled Adam back in the day when I was styling different celebrities. It is just so funny when people say that to me because I crack up. So, yes, no. I am not Avril Lavigne, but I bring the same kind of flavor, I think, as she does.Meagan: You are so awesome. Yeah, it is just so funny. It is just how it reads. It just automatically goes to Avril Lavigne in my mind, but you are so awesome. We think you are awesome. And, yeah. As you were saying, you are a celebrity stylist, which, how cool is that? Motherhood, fashion, lifestyle expert, and TV personality. I mean, you are going to hear it coming out right here. You are going to see it on her Instagram page. If you haven’t, go right now. It is @alilevinedesign. So, it is @alilevinedesign. Go check her out. It is super fun. I think you actually have a couple, like Everything with Ali Levine, right? Like, you have a couple of pages.Ali: Yes, that’s my podcast.Meagan: That’s your podcast.Ali: Everything with Ali Levine is my podcast, yes.Meagan: Yes. Ali Levine. So, go listen to her. It is just so fun. So, okay. I am just going to read your bio. Is that okay?Ali: Whatever you want.Meagan: Whatever I want, all right. So it says, “Ali Levine believes that no matter where you roam, from the laundry room to the red carpet, authenticity is your superpower and confidence is your best accessory.”I love that. The week your podcast goes on, we need to make a little word blurb and put that and put your name in that. It’s amazing.Julie: I can make a shirt. I want to make a shirt.Meagan: Do it. Let’s do it. “The New York-hotshot-turned-Hollywood style maven delivers a real, raw look at her own motherhood journey amid the treasures she’s uncovered in the universal search for authenticity, spiritual wholeness, and happiness.”Seriously, so excited to have you. I know that you have two beautiful daughters. We are excited to hear about both of their births. So, before I take up all the time ranting and raving about how awesome you are, let’s let everyone hear about how awesome you are from you and your awesome story.Ali: Aw. Well, thank you so much for having me. I was telling you before we started recording-- truly, I am so honored to be here tonight. I listen to you guys literally every day still, now. I was listening my entire pregnancy. My doula, Stacey, has given your podcast to so many different clients when she is like, “Hey, this client is struggling. What should I have them listen to?” And I am like, “Have them listen to The VBAC Link.” You guys have been such a godsend, truly. Especially during the pandemic, and everything that was going on with my birth, and plans changing every day, the only solid piece I had was with you guys. I literally had you in my ear as much as humanly possible to keep putting the intention that I was going to get my VBAC and I did with my second daughter. It was so freaking magical and healing. It makes me cry still.Meagan: Well, I love it because one of the things that I feel sometimes weird about even though it’s my own podcast is, I still go back and listen to all the stories. I am not having babies anymore. I am not preparing for a VBAC, but all of these stories are just so inspiring. And honestly, they help me because I can send these to my clients. So many of these are powerful and educational for my own clients, so I am excited to hear that both you and your doula are still with us. You’re still hanging out with us even though you rocked your VBAC and, yeah. We are just so excited that you are with us.Ali: Well, thank you. I agree with you completely and if there is anything I have learned from my social media and my own podcast, it is that beautiful authenticity, that sharing of that real and rawness, and being able to be vulnerable and share all of that. Not only is it so healing and beautiful for the individual, but it is so empowering for the other women listening and for the moms that are going through it. It is like, we are all there for each other and in that sense, we are all really going for our VBAC and when you get to hear these other stories-- like, during my pregnancy, I remember finding you guys randomly when I was searching for VBAC support and I was listening. I just started falling in love with the stories and I was like, “Oh my gosh. I could picture myself in that position. Oh my gosh.” And to feel like I could do it, it was such an empowering feeling. So, kudos to you guys, truly, for this show.Meagan: Oh, thank you so much. Thank you. It has been so rewarding. It truly has.Ali: That’s amazing.Julie: Yeah, thank you. It is fun to come full circle, where we have people that were listening to the podcast and are on the podcast. I just feel like it is really cool when you were listening to the stories, and you were getting inspired by the stories, and then you get to share your story now and inspire other people. Then, we have this domino effect where people are listening to the podcast, and then sharing their stories, and then others are listening to their stories and then sharing their stories. It is just this really cool community and platform that we have built. It just makes me really happy.Ali: No, I love it. And you can hear that with you guys. Like, truly. Every time you listen, you hear that happiness and how much you guys celebrate everyone who is on and their stories and it is like-- something that I have learned with my second daughter is, birth is truly beautiful. It is something that I honestly with my first, especially after having quite a traumatic C-section, I really was in a fear-based place. I am so grateful that I switched from that fear to that love, and that transformation, and all that because it really is. As intense as it can be, the more you can be intentional, the more you can empower yourself, no matter what the circumstance, it is transformational and it is life-changing and so many ways. Not just in, of course, the fact that you give birth, but in my opinion, you are reborn. There is a spiritual awakening, at least for myself. It has just been so magical for me to get to really, really dive into it. And so, I am excited to share it with you guys.Meagan: Well, we are excited to hear it.Ali: All right, so going back to Amelia. When I got pregnant-- we talked about the fact that I am a celebrity stylist and I do a lot with television and Hollywood and all of that. And so, when I got pregnant, I had just come off of being on a show on Bravo, so people nationally knew my pregnancy. A lot more eyeballs were watching my pregnancy than I expected them to be and watching my journey, which was really amazing and cool, but also a lot of pressure at the same time.I really didn’t realize how much it played into my actual pregnancy and birth. When I was in the midst of thinking about what I wanted to have for a birth plan, I was of course very much in the mindset of like, “I really want to have a natural birth, and I want to have a tub birth, and I want it to be beautiful, and I want flowers, and I want this, and I want that.” I am a more natural person in general in how I like to do things. I like to seek out natural options before I go to something else. And so for me, it felt like it really aligned and it was what I wanted to do.I honestly didn’t really do my research or homework into what that looked like. I got a midwife. I got a doula, but I didn’t do research beyond that. I didn’t really look into what it potentially could be. It was more just like I made sure I had my team and I made sure I had a back-up doctor with that team in case things didn’t go that way just to make sure I was safe, and that was it. I didn’t really do much research I guess I would say.And so, once it came time for me when I went into labor-- First off, I will share that I was getting really fed up with everybody asking me when I was going to pop when I was going to have the baby. My parents were sitting and looking at me like this balloon that was going to pop and I am like, “Oh my gosh. It is okay. I am fine. They checked. The baby is fine. I am fine.” But every two seconds it was like, “Why haven’t you gone into labor? How come she hasn’t come yet?” I was like, “I don’t know.” It was a lot of pressure, honestly. I got so fed up at around-- I think it was at 40 weeks and I said to my husband, “I can’t deal anymore. If one more person asks me, I am going to lose it.” So, I took castor oil, which I don’t advise.Meagan: I did that with my first birth too.Ali: Did you? Okay.Meagan: Yes, and everyone was asking me the same questions. I had one coworker who was like, “Do I need to get you a wheelbarrow to wheel you around the office?” I am like, “Shut up.”Ali: Right. Nobody wants to hear that. It is funny for a minute and then you are like, “Please, just let me be because clearly, I am uncomfortable, and I am trying to be at peace with this, and I am trying to allow my baby to come when they are supposed to come,” which, you know. It is easier said than done. And then you’re sitting there and they are like, “Well, you haven’t popped yet.” My mom was like, “Well, I had you and they had to induce me. Well, what if that is what you need? What is going on?” And I was like, “Oh my gosh. Let’s just leave all of the pressures off of me please and let my body do its thing.” I couldn’t deal.So, I took castor oil. It did definitely jumpstart something because all of a sudden, five hours later, my water broke and I was going into labor. But I went into pre-labor and pre-contractions because of the castor oil. And so, we think that now, obviously in hindsight, that it probably pushed her too fast and she wasn’t ready. Because first off, it made me feel really uncomfortable. I went into my birth center to my midwife and I wasn’t really dilated past even a 3, and so she sent me home and was like, “You know, go home and go to sleep. Try to do this and try to do that.” Of course, I couldn’t do any of those things. I was losing it at home trying to stay calm and wait for her to come. We went back to my birth center and then I was finally progressing a little bit more. I still wasn’t active, but she took me because I think she felt bad that I was struggling.And so, we go to my midwife’s birth center and we are there. Hours of really hardcore, manual, full-blown natural labor, really doing the work. Squatting, on the toilet, on the ball, in the shower, in the bed, on all fours, just constant, constant, and it was a good day of full-blown movement trying to get my body to do what I needed to do, and progress, and make things happen.I finally started getting too active and she was like, “All right. Let’s transition you to the tub so that we can get you ready and get you comfortable if that’s where you want to be. I got in the tub and I immediately felt super sick, and super overwhelmed, and dehydrated, and also nauseous. I threw up. She was like, “All right. Let’s get you out.” So, I got back on the ball. I got back on the toilet and I felt awful.So then, they lowered the water in the tub and everything. My doula was putting a washcloth on me, and essential oils, and trying to calm me. I could feel that I just felt off. We went back into the tub because I told her that I really wanted to give birth there and so she was like, “All right. Let’s breathe, and take our time, and see where we are.” At that point, I was in the tub and I was almost at 30 hours of being in labor. She was like, “You know, you are only at the beginning of active labor. I think I was technically at 6-6.5, something like that. I wasn’t fully progressing. She was getting concerned that things weren’t really fully progressing and I was really losing my stamina and my strength because I had been pushing and moving for so long.She was like, “Let’s talk about interventions.” Of course, being someone who did want natural and had a “birth plan” and all that, I wanted nothing to do with that. I was like, “No, no, no. I want to just stay here. Let me just progress. Leave it alone.” She stepped out of the room, my midwife, and made a phone call to the back-up doctor at the hospital to let him know what she was thinking. I guess, of course, they advised each other that I should go in. And so, they got me out of the tub. That was a whole scene in itself. That could have been on a freaking reality show. It was like, getting me out, my parents are in the waiting room, we asked them not to be there and they’re pacing, and they’re flipping, and everything is a mess. Everyone is flipping out. “Am I okay? What is happening?” It was just so much pressure.I get into my husband’s truck. I am fine. I am in active labor, but I am totally fine. Baby is safe and I am fine. We drive over to the hospital. I get there and they check me in and I get to my room. They check me and they were like, “All right. You progressed a little bit more, but she is stuck in the birth canal at this point. So we are going to give you some Pitocin to ramp things up and try to move her.” They put me on-- I think it was 15, I think, is the highest you can be? I didn’t go from a small amount. It was like literally, they cranked me up and I went from full-blown natural-- it was awful. I went from full-blown natural at the birth center in the dark with my music, with my oils, all of that to bright lights, fluorescent, hospital, screaming, panic, everybody in your shit if you will. It was just crazy and then it was like oh, and then this Pitocin that was cranked to no end. I couldn’t handle it. I immediately was like, “Oh my gosh. I can’t breathe. I feel uncomfortable.” I’m like, crying. I was really struggling. So then they were like, “All right. Well, let’s give her an epidural.” They cranked that all the way up. I went from feeling like I couldn’t handle it to I couldn’t feel anything and then I felt super sick.I threw up again. I just felt awful. I just remember in that moment feeling so down and feeling like I failed at what I was trying to do. I remember even now, that heavy moment of, “What just happened? Why am I here? What is all of this? This is nothing of what I wanted. I was so overwhelmed.” And so fast forward, I got to 40 hours. We spent 10 more hours at the hospital. We got to 40 hours. My doctor came in and was like, “All right. Well, at least you have progressed now to basically complete. We are going to give this a go and have you really push and make this happen.” I am like, “Okay.” And so I am pushing, but I really couldn’t feel it to be honest. The epidural, they said, was supposed to wear off, but it was like I really could not-- I just could not feel it.They were like, “Push. Push. Push.” I am pushing. I am pushing. They are like, “Push harder.” I am pushing as much as I could. She comes down. I obviously, really couldn’t see her, but everybody else could and they were like, “But then she shot back up in the back birth canal,” which I obviously didn’t even know was a thing. And so, she shot down, and then she shot back up. Then they were like, “All right. We are going to go again.” She shot down again. He went to grab her and she shot back up. I just remember my doctor looking at me and being like, “Okay. We are going to take a break and then I will be back.”He went and actually said to me, “I am going to go get dinner and then come back.” At first, I was like, “Oh, that is so rude,” but my doula and midwife advised me because they were still there with me. They advised me that the reason he did that was to buy me more time because if he wasn’t present technically there shouldn’t have had me had a baby without him unless it was an emergency.So they were like, “He is buying you time.” So I was like, “Okay.” I didn’t realize at that time that there were a lot of decisions that needed to be made. What are we going to do? What are we going to keep trying? Are we going to do something else? C-section hadn’t even been in my mind because I hadn’t even been talked to about a C-section, prepped around a C-section, like nothing. So I was not thinking that at all. I was just thinking, “We are just going to wait longer. I am going to rest and we are going to go again.” Everybody leaves the room. My husband sits with me and he turns to me. We were at almost 42 hours at this point. He looks at me and he goes, “Don’t you want to meet her now?” I started bawling. I am like, “Are you kidding me? Like, are you kidding me? Of course, I want to meet her now, but I have done so much work. I want things to go the way I want them to go. They weren’t already going the way I wanted them to go when we were at the birth center.”He’s like, “I know, but you are so tired. You have been such a warrior. Don’t you just want to meet her and let yourself rest? We will have her.” Of course, I burst into tears and I was just like, “Fine, I guess.” I just let go. I remember being so upset and feeling so defeated in that moment because I got to those 42 hours and I had gotten to basically complete. So much had played out and I was convinced that “Okay. At least I was going to have her vaginally in a hospital.” And then it was just like, “Nope.” I get rolled Into the OR and have my C-section. Thank God, it was so fast. It was probably not even 10 minutes. They were really, really quick and she was right there. I have to say that they did an amazing job and I was so grateful. But it was just so not obviously what I envisioned or imagined. I just remember after getting back in the room and the initial shock and then putting me with her and everything, I just remember feeling like, “Oh my god, I am so happy to have her in my arms,” but I just felt like I had failed and my body had failed.It was such a debilitating feeling. I felt so numb in me, even though I was so blissfully happy about her. It was like a wild rollercoaster of emotions, you know? Because I was so happy to have her and so excited to finally hold my baby, but at the same time, I was almost dead inside. Like, what happened? Why did things play out like that? What is that? Do you know?For those that have followed my story, you know shortly after having my first daughter, I had pretty heavy postpartum depression. I do believe a lot of my birth played into that. When I got pregnant again with Arley, I really made the intention of, “I really don’t want to go through that again if I don’t have to. I really want to be smart about doing my research this time around my birth. What can I do to prepare my body? How can I be more intentional internally and not externally?” Because I felt like with Amelia-- again, I was a new mom. I had no idea what I was getting into, so to me, it was like, “Oh, you just give birth. No big deal. Everybody does it.” I didn’t prep my body. I didn’t do anything. The only thing I did was take maternity photoshoots that were glamorous. I just did all of the checkboxes of the things in the external world and all the glam. With Arley, I was like, “No.” I am going to be so intentional about what I am going to do, what I need to do, and do my research and talk to my birth communities around me now that I know them from sharing my experience and everything with Amelia.Luckily, I had so many incredible people around me that advised me to get a chiropractor right when I got pregnant to get my body aligned. So I found a chiropractor that specialized in VBACs and aligned with her right at three weeks when I was pregnant. I stayed with her my entire pregnancy. I found people that could do labor stimulation massage for later in the game and a doula that had also been a part of VBACs. Just all of these different entities that I didn’t realize were so important. And then most importantly, when I got pregnant with Arley, I went to my regular prenatal doctor, and the first thing she says to me after “Congratulations” is, “Okay, now let’s schedule your C-section.” I looked at her and I said, “Whoa. First off, I am just swallowing the fact that I am pregnant again. Secondly, I don’t want to do a C-section.” She was like, “Well since you already had one, I am advising you to have one.”I was like, “Well, with all due respect, I know that I can have a VBAC.” She was like, “Well, I really don’t advise it. I really think you should have a C-section.”Julie: Wow.Ali: Isn’t that wild? That was my reaction. Julie: Like, right off the bat, even. Not even discussing anything.Ali: Nope. No discussion. It was like, “I know better. Here is this information.” Gave me a folder, the whole nine yards of my risks, the whole thing, the whole fear-mongering. Thank God I had so many people around me in the birth community from Amelia that they had all told me that just wasn’t true and that the success rate was way higher than people realize and discuss. It was funny because I actually learned about VBACs when I was on Berlin’s podcast. I’m spacing on his name. Dr. Berlin.Meagan: Elliot? Elliot Berlin?Ali: Yes, thank you. Yes. And so, I was on his podcast and he wanted to share my birth story with Amelia. After I was on it, he turned to me and he goes, “You know, you could still have another baby vaginally.” I was like, “No, I can’t.” He was like, “Yeah, you can.” I was like, “What do you mean?” He was like, “It’s called a VBAC. They happen all the time.” He was like, “It has nothing to do with the way--” and this and that. It was like this reality of what had been told to me and preached to me all of a sudden just burst in front of me. It was like, “Wait. Unlearn everything you were just told and pay attention. Zoom in to what you’re being told now and learn.” And so, I did. Once I got pregnant with Arley, I knew I wanted to at least attempt a VBAC and get myself aligned body-wise, intentionally, mind-wise, soul, everything to do that. Once that doctor said that to me, I was like, “Well, I am sorry but I am not going to stay with you because you are not for me if you are not going to at least try to let me have a VBAC.” And so, I parted ways with her. I was so grateful she showed me her true colors right from the beginning because I know some doctors can bait-and-switch from what I have heard. She let me know right from the beginning and so then I started reaching out to different doulas and people to give me references. I landed on Dr. Brock who is in Los Angeles who is literally known as “The VBAC King”. You guys will appreciate that.That’s literally what people call him. “The VBAC King”.Julie: I want to know more about The VBAC King, but it’s okay.Ali: Totally fine. It’s all good. So actually, it is funny that you guys bring up Elliot because Elliot and he have actually worked together in several births. Because a lot of people in LA go to him, if a baby is breech, they go to Dr. Brock because he is the only doctor known in Los Angeles to turn a breech baby. He is amazing. And so, I went to him. I asked for a referral to go see him because he is really hard to get into. I sit with him and I am twiddling my thumbs when he comes in. I am pregnant and he is like, “What is going on with you? Why are you so nervous?” I remember looking at him and I said quietly to him, “I want to discuss a VBAC.” He is like, “What?” “I want to discuss having a VBAC.” And he is like, “What is there to discuss?” He was like, “I did three this morning. What is the problem?”Meagan: Oh my gosh! Yeah.Julie: Best feeling ever.Ali: It was the best feeling ever. I looked at him and I was like, “Oh my gosh, that’s it?” Because I felt so shamed and wronged with that other doctor. And so, when he was so open to me and he was just like, “Yeah.” The nurse was so funny that was in there. She was taking my stats and she was like, “He does them literally every day and sometimes three times. It is not a big deal.” I was like, “Oh my gosh.”He was like, “Yeah. We will just monitor you. We are going to check your scar and make sure everything is together. As long as everything looks good, we will plan to do it, and if things down the road change, we will have a conversation.” He was like, “But I don’t see why not. You look like a great VBAC candidate.” He was all for it day one. I was so grateful that he was so supportive and his team and everything. And so fast forward, he checked my scars several times and everything looked good, thank God. Baby was growing great and everything was happening. We get to when pandemic hits. The world changes. I went from, “Okay, you can’t have your doula” to “Now, you can’t have your husband at the hospital.” It was becoming really intense for me because here I am, I really want to go for my VBAC and I want to have my support system, and now I’m not going to even have anybody. How is this going to work? Am I going to be able to have my VBAC? I am not going to lie, I was in a lot of fight-or-flight mode. I started researching home birth and HBACs at home. I started really doing research and talking to midwives and other people that were home doctors in case my husband couldn’t be with me. Because to me, it was one thing not to have Stacey, my doula, but it was another not to have my husband. I just felt like he had been through so much with me through Amelia that I couldn’t imagine not having him with Arley. Thank God, I think Arley knew. She held on because she literally came right at 42 weeks and they had just opened the hospitals back up a week before. And so, my husband was allowed to come and be with me. I really felt like she held out for him. But it was funny the week before, actually a week and a half probably before, Dr. Brock, as great as he was, he is still a doctor. Near the end, especially with the pandemic and everything, he was just like, “Well, you know, you’re getting close and you still haven’t gone into labor. Maybe we should just induce.”I was like, “No. I don’t want to. I really want to give my body a shot.” He kept pushing me. He was like, “Well, let’s do a sweep. Let’s do this. Let’s do that.” I finally got a sweep a week before. Nothing happened. It was just painful for me. He was like, “All right.” We did another sweep a few days later and nothing was happening. He was like, “Let me just induce you. Let me just--” and I was like, “Dr. Brock. With all due respect, you have been so supportive of me through this whole experience. Please, just let me get to the final mark, and if things don’t happen then, then fine. We will do it.” I think it was maybe four or five days before and he kind of, not went back on his word, but I think he had moments because all of this was going on with the pandemic. He was just like, “Look.” He was like, “I am going to schedule the induction. It is going to be tomorrow,” and this and that. I remember leaving there and I felt really powerless. I was really upset and I came home. It was my eight-year anniversary with my husband. I turned to him and I was like, “I don’t want to do it. I don’t want to go in tomorrow.” He was like, “All right. Let’s talk through it.”He is very logical and he was like, “Let’s talk through it. What’s going on? Why don’t you want to?” I just told him, I was like, “It just doesn’t feel right. I have worked so hard to be so intentional around this birth from my chiropractor, to finding a supportive doctor, to the right doula, to even different workouts, meditation, The VBAC Link podcast, just all kinds of things that I really surrounded myself with material-wise and tool-wise.” So I was like, “It just doesn’t feel right. It doesn’t align.”He was like, “All right. Well, if you feel that way, then don’t go.” I called my doula and she was like, “Look. At the end of the day, you would be your own advocate. Everything is good with you and the baby. They run tests. Everything is cool. So at this point, it is really just a waiting game. So if you really don’t want to, then you voice that. You call and you cancel and you cancel the induction.” I remember calling Cedars-Sinai and canceling. I called and they were like, “Oh, we don’t even have your name on the list.” I was like, “Oh.” They were like, “But we will let Dr. Brock know.” It was funny because it was such a build-up to call. I felt like I was being a bad kid in school. So I was so nervous to call and cancel. I was dancing in my room for hours to call. I finally called and they were like, “Oh, you’re not even on the schedule.” I was like, “Oh, okay. Well, just let them know I am not coming.”The next day, I got a call from my doctor and Dr. Brock is like, “Come in. I want to do a nonstress test on you.” So I go in, everything is cool. He was like, “All right, so you pushed against me.” He was like, “Message received. You’re not doing it.” I am like, “No. I am not.” And he is like, “All right.” He is like, “It is fine.” He is like, “Everything is good. Tests are good. I just thought you’d want to have her birthday. Don’t you want to have her already?” I am like, “I do want her here, but I want her here on her terms. If there is anything I learned from my first birth, it’s not about me. I don’t want to do it on my terms.” He was like, “Okay, fine. It is fair.” So then he was like, “If you don’t go--” because now, I was at the end of 41 weeks and 8 days or whatever. You know, when you get close to 42. He was like, “This weekend if you don’t go, on Monday, we are going to schedule the induction.” I was like, “Fine. That is fair.”So that weekend came and it was Friday. I wasn’t getting any kinds of signs of going into labor. I was getting a lot of that prodromal labor that you guys always talk about which is the start-and-go, and you actually contract, and you think you’re in labor, but then it stalls out. That was happening for weeks to me. I was like, “What is this?” It kept happening and happening. That happened again on Friday and it just like-- nothing. My doula sent me to get acupuncture. I did that to stimulate things. That actually, I think, really helped. I did that Friday and I did that on Saturday. I went back-to-back and it really stimulated things and moved things around, I think, from what I could feel. My husband was also doing acupressure with my points at home that she had shown me.At this point, my doula had said to me, “Okay. In my opinion, I feel like there is something more to this than your body.” It reminded me of one episode, well, many episodes I listened to with you guys, but there was one specifically where you guys really hone in on fear releasing. She was like, “I really feel like there’s something going on with you and we need to work through it.” So we did a recording of my birth story of Amelia‘s birth with her, just her and I recording everything, getting it out. She was like, “Okay. Now it is out. Let’s process it. Let’s release it. Wrap it up in a pretty bow and that’s it. We are going to move past it.” I was like, “Okay.” We did that on Friday. And then, we did some more rebozo and this and that. We met up outside at a park and everything and talked things through. Saturday came and she was like, “All right. I know you are getting close and you are getting concerned.” She was like, “What else can we do to help you release this?” I was like, “I don’t know. I am just so afraid of a C-section. I am so afraid of this. I am so afraid of that.” She was like, “All right.” She goes, “When you get home, you are going to write down--” And I remember learning this from you guys. She said, “You are going to write down what you told me you listened to on The VBAC Link, which was to write down your fears and release them.” She was like, “I want you to do that because I feel like there is more to this.” And so, I went back and listened to a bunch of your guys’ episodes and I wrote down on pieces of paper all of the different things I was afraid of. Getting an induction, stalling out, getting a C-section, getting stuck in the birth canal, all of the things. Being on Pitocin, getting an epidural, all of the things I was truly afraid of and I burned each and every one of them. There was such a relief when I burned them. I felt it in my energy and in my body. I started crying. I just felt so good.So then, my husband and I took a walk with our toddler, Amelia. We went around the block and we were just talking and he started talking me through stuff. He was like, “What do you think it is?” I was like, “I don’t know. I think I’m just afraid to wind up in another crazy, traumatic birth.” He was like, “Okay. And if God forbid, that happened, what is the worst thing? We come home. You heal. We have our second daughter. It is the four of us as a family. The overall things are fine and we have our girl.” This and that, you know, putting things into perspective for me. I was like, “Yeah, no. You are right.” He is a golfer, a really good golfer. And so, he was walking me through all the strategies for a big tournament and comparing it to getting ready for a birth of the mentality and this and that, but actually, it was really helpful for me. So we come home and we have dinner and he was like, “Let’s hang out, and just stay up late, and have a good time.” So we have a little dance party with Amelia. We are playing music videos and just having a good time, dancing and laughing. And then, I go to lay down in bed. I turned on my essential oils and I do a little more acupressure. I say a little prayer. I got in bed and I put meditation in my ears and get the room really dark. I am meditating. I am like, “I am going to go into labor. Things are going to happen. Things are going to happen.” I wake up a couple of times in the middle of the night, nothing is happening. I am getting a little crushed. But I am like, “No. I am going to let it go. Let it go.”I started getting hungry and I was like, “I’m going to go downstairs for a snack.” It was probably around 1:30, maybe 2:00. I start walking down my stairs and I feel this cramp and I am like, “Ooh,” and then I feel it again. I am like, “Ooh.” I get down and I am like, “Ooh, ooh, ooh,” and I can’t. I get down on my knees and I can’t get up.Julie: I love that.Ali: I am like, “Oh, maybe I’m not going to have a snack.” And so, I crawled up my stairs and I’m like, “Oh, okay. Could this be?” I honestly didn’t believe it because I had had so much prodromal labor. I had had so much start-and-go that it was like, “Oh, here we go again.” So I am just like, “Okay. I am just going to go lay back down.” I am crawling, but as I am crawling, it is getting more and more intense. More tightening and I am barely able to crawl. And so, I get up my stairs. I get in my room. My husband is sleeping and snoring. I am like, “Okay. I’m not going to wake him because I have told him so many times that this could be it and nothing is happening.” So I am like, “I am just going to chill.”So I call my doula. I could barely get the words out because I am in quite a bit of squeezing pain, feeling the surges, and she was like, “All right. Do me a favor. Draw your bathtub. Get in the tub. Put in a little bit of your oils and call me back. Let me just hear your breathing.” So I turned the tub on and I had this overwhelming feeling while I was sitting there in my room, just talking to myself of going into Amelia‘s room. I didn’t know why. So I crawled into her room and I opened the door and crawl in. She is asleep. I crawl into her chair. I’m sitting there and I start bursting into tears. I am hysterical out of nowhere and I just start babbling and I am like, “I love you. I hope I can be a good mom when I am a mom of two. I have made such an amazing relationship between the two of us so far. I don’t want to fail you.” I am just pouring my heart out. She is passed out. I am just crying and crying, just sharing my heart with her and my fear of being a mom of two. I don’t want to let her down.And then I remember I said to her, “Okay. I think your baby sister is coming. So the next time I see you, she is going to be here.” I was hysterical. Then I crawl back out, crawled into my tub. I think this was maybe 2:30 or 3:00 at this point. I get in my tub and I call my doula. I start breathing and she was like, “All right. Let’s do some meditation.” I had also done some HypnoBirthing between learning for Amelia’s birth and then for Arley’s birth. So I am doing HypnoBirthing in the tub. She is guiding me. My contractions were 11 minutes apart, so they weren’t that close. So she was like, “Okay. We are just going to let you stay in the tub. Meditate. Stay in your zone. Let’s see what happens.”Shortly after, not even an hour, she was like, “Okay. You are eight minutes. You’re seven. Oh, okay.” She was like, “Okay, Ali. You need to wake Justin up. You are getting to be close to six minutes apart. You have got to get ready to go.” I was like, “Wait, what?” You know, because I was so in the zone at that point. I wasn’t even listening to her count. I was so in my zone in the tub, in the darkness, meditating, really bringing the affirmations of having my VBAC and talking to Arley. I was just so in it, more so than I think I even realized I was. And so she was like, “You need to get out. You need to get up. You need to get to the hospital.” Justin, of course, doesn’t know. My husband doesn’t hear me. He is sleeping and snoring. I am screaming from the bathtub and he doesn’t hear me. I’m like, “Babe. Babe! I am in labor. We have to go to the hospital.” He doesn’t hear me, so my doula calls him and wakes him up. He is like, “What is going on?” She is like, “Ali is in labor. You have got to get ready to go.” He goes into the bathroom and of course, he is making fun of me as he usually does and his sarcasm. He is like, “Oh, I hear a ghost or something.” I am like, “Oh my god.” He literally is like, “Oooh. Ooooh. What is that noise? Ooooh.” I am like, “Ha, ha. That is so you.” I am like, “Come over here and squeeze my hands. I am losing my shit.” That is his personality, by the way. He gets me out. We are getting everything ready to go and getting everything in the truck to leave. My doula ended up coming down to make sure I was okay, but also because my friend was supposed to be here for Amelia had I gone into labor in the middle of the night, but wasn’t picking up her phone because they probably just thought, “Oh, I am going to hear my phone go off.” And so, my doula came rushing out so that we could leave so that somebody could watch her since we couldn’t bring her, especially with COVID and everything.She comes and she sees me off. I get in the truck and I am in full-blown active labor. I am transitioning. I am shaking. I’m convulsing. I am screaming. I’m trying to stay zen. I am screaming while I am meditating. This whole thing in his truck. We arrive there. I am screaming when we get out of his truck. They pull up. They bring the wheelchair. I won’t forget. They put me in a wheelchair and they were shoving this mask in my face. I am screaming through the mask. I am trying to rip the mask off because I’m screaming. It was a whole thing.I get into the room. They get me in and my doula was immediately on my FaceTime. Stacey was like, “Okay.” Thank God for her. She was like, “Turn the lights down. Let’s get it to be zen for her again. Get her out of the bright lights. Let’s calm things down. Justin put out her crystals. Let’s get her intention cards up. Get the little lights up.” Stacey is orchestrating everything from FaceTime. Justin is getting everything together and I am sitting there and breathing through. I am still natural at this point. I am just breathing through my contractions as much as I can and screaming at all of that. They checked me and I am 6.5. They’re like, “All right. Well, you’re definitely active and ready to go. You are progressing, so we are going to let you progress.” I think I got to almost a 7, or out of 7, and I really was having a hard time. I was really having a hard time breathing. It was getting really intense. Stacey was like, “Look. If you want to get an epidural, just get the epidural.”But, I had so much fear around getting an epidural because of Amelia‘s birth. I was like, “I don’t want to. I am too afraid. I don’t want to get stuck. Let me just keep going.” But I wasn’t fully progressing because I was struggling. I was like, “Okay. I’m going to get an epidural.” Luckily at Cedars-- I know some hospitals don’t have this, but Cedars does. I had been advised by a couple of other doulas to get a walking epidural if I could, even though I wouldn’t be walking anywhere, obviously, because of the world, but I could walk in my room. And so, I got a walking epidural and for me, that was just enough to take the edge off, but not enough to numb where I could walk around and I could be on the ball. I could do hip exercises on the side of the bed. I could get on all fours. I could keep switching positions. Even when I was in the bed, I had a peanut ball being switched between my legs. I was moving constantly. I was never still. I think that was a really big game changer and helpful for me when it came to progressing because shortly after, I was at complete.We arrived at the hospital around 6:00 a.m. and by noon, I was complete. It was pretty fast for me compared to Amelia. It was like, “Oh, wow. This is happening. I have got to complete.” The doctor comes in. Dr. Brock is like, “All right. You are complete, but you are not--” I forget the stations when you are at the last station, but you’re not fully there where the baby can come out. What is that called?Julie: Yeah, like +2 or +3 station.Meagan: Yeah, or even +4.Ali: Yes. Yeah, whatever it was, like the lowest one. I was almost there, but I wasn’t there yet. He had said that. I was like, “Oh, okay.” He was like, “But don’t worry. We are going to figure out getting her down. Let’s get you to move more. Let’s do some more pushing. Let’s do this.” You know, I didn’t realize that because of Amelia‘s birth, even though the labor was so intense with her, my body remembered that, which is wild. The muscle memory of that.I hadn’t really fully pushed with Amelia, so it was pushing like a new mom, which I didn’t expect to go through. I pushed for 2.5 hours after we had been told I was ready to go and was complete. I was really working, working. I had the squat bar. I was pushing. I was on the ground. I was on all fours. I was doing everything possible to move her, and keep going, and move her down and everything.She was just right there, but just wasn’t happening and then I spiked a fever. Dr. Brock came in and he was like, “Okay. I was all for everything you were doing, but now you spiked a fever. I am concerned for you and the baby. I am sure everything is fine, but I don’t want to take any chances, so these are the last pushes and then we are going to have to figure something out because I am not going to let you go longer because of the fever.” Of course, they had given me medication at this point to bring the fever down.And so, he had turned to me and he was like, “All right. We are going to do a vacuum to try and help you get her out. Once I get the vacuum, you are going to have to push with all your might. It is just going to be to assist and then you’re going to have to push her out.” He was like, “When I tell you to push, I mean you’d better push with every single thing in you and push until you can’t breathe.” I was like “Oh, okay.” I remember being in the bed, and looking at Justin, and even reflecting on it myself, and being like, “Oh my gosh. I cannot believe I got this far and here we are again. I am freaking going to have a C-section.” I was really starting to go into fight-or-flight. I was getting really, really upset. My doula was trying to calm me over FaceTime. She was like, “It’s okay. We are still in control. It’s okay. Breathe. Just allow things to play,” and I am in total panic at this point. I looked at Justin and I said, “Can I have my earbuds please?” I put them in my ear. I turned on one of my fear-releasing meditations. I shut my eyes. I remember praying really, really hard and just being really intentional. Like, “I can make this happen. This is going to happen. I can do this. Come on, Ali. You can do this.”Before I knew it, it was like, “Push.” I pushed so hard and the next thing I knew, there she was on my chest, screaming. I was hysterically crying. I couldn’t even believe that she was there. I honestly didn’t even feel her fully come out because everything was happening. It was so wild. I remember them putting her on my chest and I was bawling because I was like, “Oh my god, I did it. Oh my god. Oh my god. She’s here. Oh my god.” It was the most surreal experience and so healing in that moment for me of just being like, “Holy crap. I did it. My body did it.” Even now, I get choked up because I still can’t believe it happened.Meagan: I’m sure in that whole moment there was just such that rush.Julie: Yeah, wild.Meagan: Yeah, okay. I have to do this right now. And then, boom. You did it.Julie: Yeah. It sounds like she came so fast when it was time.Ali: Yeah, well once he put the vacuum on and was like, “Okay, push.” He gave me that bar--Meagan: The assistance, yes.Ali: Yeah, the assistance and gave me that bar and was like, “Push down.” I just remember I pushed with everything in me. I pushed and holy crap. She was here. She was 9 pounds, 3 ounces, by the way.Meagan: Yeah, girl!Ali: Amelia was 8 pounds, 7 ounces and I thought that was big. Arley was 23.5 inches long so it was like, oh my gosh. I couldn’t believe that I got her out. It was truly amazing to me. It was so empowering. It was like, “Holy crap. My body did it.” It was so amazing. After having her on my chest and holding her, I was just bawling. I just couldn’t even believe it happened.Meagan: Yeah. I’m sure it was just such an amazing moment. It sounds like she just needed to come into that pubic bone and then she was there. Oh, well congratulations.Ali: Thank you.Meagan: So awesome.Ali: It was so magical. It really was. I just felt so much support around me through my whole pregnancy. It’s funny you say the pubic bone too because my chiropractor-- she kept adjusting me. Even the day before I went into labor, she adjusted me. She kept adjusting me and adjusting my hips and doing this, and my sciatica and everything to make sure I was as aligned as possible. But I think in a way it was kind of like me being tested, like how bad do you want this thing? Because when you guys were saying “the rush”, I felt like I could have either gone into fight-or-flight and I could have been like, “Oh my gosh,” in panic and allowed myself to not have that release that you guys talk about all the time, but I think because I did release, and I did allow her to come, and I got really intentional and listened to the fear releasing in my ears, I think it was all divine. And there she was.Julie: Yeah. It’s incredible what can happen when you have that release of emotions. Fear in the birth space is real and it can really hold you up if you let it.Ali: Mhmm, yeah. You’re right.Meagan: So awesome. Now, she is just crawling around and being such a big girl.Julie: Oh, such a fun age.Ali: It is wild how fast. I feel like I just had her and I am like, “Oh my gosh, she is already crawling everywhere.” I literally turn around and she is down the hallway and I am like, “Oh, hey girlfriend.” It is crazy.Julie: Wow.Ali: You know, but in a wild way, this whole thing with the pandemic and 2020, for me, is such a blessing because it has been such a healing time for me between my VBAC, and having the family time, and having my husband home to be there with me with my girls, and truly not experience postpartum depression. I am just so grateful for it.Julie: That’s awesome. That is really cool. We are living in a really crazy world right now and whenever we hear incredible birth stories coming out of this pandemic, it warms my heart. I don’t know. I could go off on five or six different tangents right now, but Meagan, what should we talk about? What should we talk about for an educational piece?Fear release and self-advocacyMeagan: Well, I love that she talked about fear releasing and self-advocacy. One of the things that I love that your doula did-- so birth workers, listen up if you are listening. They sat and they recorded. I love that she was like, “We are going to wrap it up, and seal it with a bow, and send it off.” That is so cool. It is such a powerful way, just talking about it, and getting it out there, and hearing yourself say it, and then maybe even watching it, and then saying, “Okay. That is how I felt and this is how I feel. This is why I am moving on from this fear because of this.” And then of course moving on and doing the other activities. It is so powerful.I know I probably have talked about this until I’m blue in the face, but it really came down for me-- like, I had worked through so much and there was still stuff that I found in the very moment of labor that I didn’t realize that I had worked through. It’s just so, I don’t know. It is just so crazy how you think you have worked through it, and then it comes up, and you are like, “Oh, wait. That didn’t come up during my pregnancy,” and you have to work through it again. But if you have practiced and worked really, really hard processing during your pregnancy, then it won’t be so foreign. That’s the word that is coming to my mind and maybe that’s the wrong word.Julie: Unfamiliar, maybe?Meagan: Yeah. It just won’t be so unfamiliar and foreign in the moment to process. I know it would make processing during that time easier.Julie: Yeah. I agree, 100%. Gosh, I mean, Meagan and I have both seen the same thing with our individual doula clients and working with parents through our VBAC preparation course. I actually just had a one-on-one consult with somebody preparing for VBAC a couple of weeks ago. Most of the time when we get hung up, and when there are things holding us back, and we feel like something’s not quite right, it is stemming from fear. When you can take out that fear, and write it out, and tear it up, and break it apart, and figure out where it is coming from, that is when you can really move past it in order to create a really, really clear birth space that is conducive to a nice, peaceful birth that is just happy and that you can look back on with really fond memories.Ali: Yeah. I love that. I think it is so well beautifully said and so true. You know, it is so crazy because again, when we were talking at the beginning of this podcast, with Amelia, it was obviously a normal world. I was at events and doing all of this glamorous stuff. I was doing maternity photoshoots and all of these things. And you know, fast forward to Arley and it was like, stuck at home and especially in California, very much locked down. You know, everything. It was so wild how different in that sense the world was, but yet, even in such a chaotic world, it really was such a peaceful birth. And then in such a normal world, Amelia was such a chaotic birth. So I just find that, like you were just saying, so telling when it comes to that fear and that processing of all of that and the actual intention around it. It really does, in my opinion, make such a difference. I have seen it in my own birth.Julie: Yeah. It absolutely does. Well, Ali, not Avril. It was so great to talk to you. Oh my gosh, I feel like we could just sit here and chat about everything for hours. I feel like we are friends. I just love at the end of the episode, all these podcast episodes that we do where sometimes, it’s really hard to say goodbye. It’s like, “No, you hang up.” “No, you hang up.” “No, you hang up.”Meagan: I know. It is so true. So true. We are like, “Wait. Can we hang out, like, tomorrow?”Ali: Right?Julie: Let’s go to lunch. Where do you live again?Meagan: California.Ali: Yes, please. When we are open and normal, please do. I mean, I am so honored to be here. I truly love everything you guys are doing with your show and everything at The VBAC Link. I truly, like I said, still listen. I tell everyone to listen. I just think it is such an amazing space for women that need that kind of support. Especially women that really do want to have a VBAC and don’t have those kinds of resources. I think that too many times we are told so much in birth, but especially with VBAC, “No,” and they put the fear around it from the beginning.I was so grateful that when that woman tried to really instill the fear in me that I knew better and that I was able to work past it because I feel for so many that just don’t have that. That’s why I was so grateful when I landed on The VBAC Link podcast because I was like, “Oh my gosh. Look at all of these amazing stories. I could be one of them too.” And like, holy crap. Here I am.Meagan: You are one of them.Julie: Full circle. I love it.Ali: Yes. Yes.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Today’s episode is vulnerable, raw, and beautifully courageous. In the first of a two-part episode series, we meet Lexus. Lexus shares the trauma of her first birth which ended in a crash Cesarean. She walks us through her anxiety, shock, the negligence of the hospital staff, and how she was stripped of the first birth experience she had envisioned.Lexus is currently pregnant with her second baby and is preparing for a VBAC. She shows us how she is finding healing even before her redemptive birth outcome. We can’t wait for Lexus to come back and share her second birth story!We wish birth trauma didn’t exist. We wish we could wave a magic wand and make it all disappear. But here at The VBAC Link, we also know how resilient you are. We see what you overcome. We know what victories you are capable of. We love you and continue to be inspired by you, Women of Strength.Trigger Warning: We know that unfortunately, many of our listeners can relate to the trauma Lexus shares. This episode may bring up unresolved feelings from a previous birth. Please give yourself grace and use discretion when listening. Additional linksHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for ParentsAlexis Joy Center for Perinatal Mental Health Episode sponsorThis episode is sponsored by our signature course, How to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for Parents. It is the most comprehensive VBAC preparation course in the world, perfectly packaged in an online, self-paced, video course. Together, Meagan and Julie have helped over 800 parents get the birth that they wanted, and we are ready to help you too. Head over to thevbaclink.com to find out more and sign up today.Sponsorship inquiriesInterested in sponsoring a The VBAC Link podcast? Find out more information here at advertisecast.com/TheVBACLink or email us at [email protected]. Full transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar and to eliminate false starts and filler words. Trigger WarningMeagan: Hey everyone, this is Meagan. I wanted to drop a little trigger warning here for this awesome episode. This episode is about sharing birth trauma and how to process it leading up to this person‘s VBAC. We just wanted to let you know it may be traumatic listening to it and bring up past fears or feelings that you may have had from your previous birth. Dive right in though, she gets really raw and emotional and shares what she does to work through her trauma.Meagan: Hello, hello. It is Wednesday and we have another amazing podcast episode for you today. This is The VBAC Link podcast and you are with Meagan, myself, and our assistant, Sarah, today instead of Julie. Sarah, we are so excited that you are with us.Sarah: Oh, I am so excited to be here.Meagan: I am going to totally tattletale on Julie. She is normally by the book, on time, total scheduler, like awesome. I am the one that is scatterbrained. When we scheduled today’s podcast, she forgot she had a prior commitment. She is actually getting her teeth drilled right now, so probably not having as much fun as us. Poor Julie. Send her some love over there at the dentist. But we are excited today to be recording with our friend, Lexus. Today’s episode is going to be a little bit different than some of our other episodes. As you know if you have been listening with us, we tend to share VBAC or CBAC stories. Today, Lexus is going to be sharing her C-section story and she is actually pregnant right now, due this year, and hasn’t had her VBAC yet, but is preparing for her VBAC. And so, we want to share her story today and what she is doing to prepare for her VBAC. But of course, before we dive into her awesome story, we want to turn the time over to Sarah to share one of our awesome reviews from one of our listeners.Review of the WeekSarah: Yes. I have a review from Danielle Clady. She left the review on our Google podcast, which is exciting because we don’t get very many reviews on our Google podcast. She says, “I have been listening to this podcast for MONTHS while I drive for work as I prepare for my VBAC in July.  I recommend it to all expecting moms (including first-time moms) because I WISH I knew about it before my first birth. The podcast is the reason I have hired a doula. Fingers crossed restrictions are lifted and she can come to the hospital!”So exciting. It doesn’t say when. Let’s see, July. So she would’ve had her baby already because she left this review in May.Meagan: In May, okay. So if you are listening still, write us and let us know how your birth went. We always love to know the follow-ups. Maybe we should be like Julie and stalk her in our community to see if she is in there and has posted.Sarah: Yes.Meagan: Do you know what? I love that she said that she recommends it to all first-time moms. That is something that I think is awesome about this podcast. It really isn’t just targeted to people wanting to VBAC. It really is something that all birthers can listen to because we are learning in each episode ways to avoid Cesarean, ways to advocate for ourselves, education pieces on how to help our bodies be ready. It is just so awesome. So if you are someone or if you know someone who is pregnant, or expecting, or wanting to start trying, definitely send them this podcast because we would love to reach all the moms out there and help them achieve the birth of their dreams.Sarah: Oh, 100%. I recommend this podcast to everyone I know regardless of if they are first-time moms or if they have already had a baby and didn’t have a Cesarean because there is something in every episode that someone can relate to in their birth.Episode sponsorJulie: Do you want a VBAC but don’t know where to start? It’s easy to feel like we need to figure it all out on our own. That’s what we used to do, and it was the loneliest and most ineffective thing we have ever done. That’s why Meagan and I created our signature course, How to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for Parents, that you can find at thevbaclink.com. It is the most comprehensive VBAC preparation course in the world, perfectly packaged in an online, self-paced, video course.  Together, Meagan and I have helped over 800 parents get the birth that they wanted, and we are ready to help you too. Head on over to thevbaclink.com to find out more and sign up today. That’s thevbaclink.com. See you there. Lexus’ storyMeagan: Okay, we are so excited to dive into this episode. I definitely think that there is going to be some emotion in this because as I have been reading through Lexus‘ story, there were some hard points in her labor, and her journey, and her birth. We are excited for her to share them and to share the tips on how we can better prepare for the next birth. Lexus, we would like to turn the time over to you.Lexus: Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited. This is my very first podcast, so I am super eager, and yeah, like you said, pretty nervous about the emotions that might come up, but I am embracing them because that is part of the journey as well.Meagan: Yes.Lexus: Yeah, so I can just get started. Back in April, I was 40 weeks and 6 days pregnant with my son, Theodore. We were getting ready to go in. It was my induction day. It was a Monday. I went into the hospital at 8:00 a.m. My husband and I were like two kids going to the candy shop. We were so excited. We were smiling from ear to ear. We really just had no idea how fast things can change and flip. I definitely think-- see? The emotions have started already. I am sorry. I definitely think it is something that going forward, instead of saying that, “This is my plan.” I am having a lot of, “These are my goals,” for the next birth. That has really helped put it into perspective that things can go not according to plan.Meagan: Definitely. That’s such a great point. We talk about birth plans and stuff. I have over the years steered my clients away from calling it a birth plan or having a “plan” because we know things can change. And so, if we can know our preferences and try to achieve all of our goals in the process, sometimes if they do change, then that plan doesn’t seem to have failed.Lexus: Absolutely. Yeah. That was the biggest part for me. So, yeah. We went in and we started the very long and really difficult process of induction. When they first told me about going in for my induction, I really wasn’t anticipating everything that was going to happen. The first thing that they did when I got in there was the initial height, weight, etc. But then we had a doctor come in and say, “We are going to do the Foley catheter on you.” I really wasn’t thinking, but looking back on it in hindsight, that for me was so-- I mean, it was scary. It was painful. I never want to scare women or moms from the process because it is so different for everyone. But I think there is something to be said that when it comes to forcing your body to do something that it’s not yet ready to do, that can take a toll. It truly does.I first got the Foley catheter and instantly as soon as it was placed, the doctors were taking off their gloves and the nurse was trying to fix the monitor and put it back on my son’s heartbeat. She couldn’t get it onto his heart. She couldn’t find it. The doctors were about to just walk out of the room and leave and the nurse said, “Aren’t you guys going to stay here for a minute?” She was moving it around and I really wasn’t even thinking that it was a big deal in the moment, because I just kept thinking, “Oh, he flipped around. He is a super active baby in there. He’s always kicking. He is always moving.”And then, I started to see the doctors look more and more at the monitor and look more, not-- I honestly wouldn’t say concerned. It just looked like they were almost studying it. All of a sudden, she was moving it around and they call a Condition O and the bells start going off. My husband and I were sitting there like, “Well, we don’t really know what a Condition O is.” We were just kind of, you know, “They arere trying to find it. They needed some backup, whatever.”And then all of a sudden, 20 to 30 people come rushing into the room and they are telling me to get on my side, get on the other side, get on my hands and knees, get up and they threw an oxygen mask at me. That’s when I really knew, “Oh my goodness. Something is seriously wrong.” I just remember being on my hands and knees and thinking to myself, “I can’t support myself. My arms are shaking. My legs are shaking. I can’t support myself. I can’t do it.”I remember looking around the room, looking for someone that could be my focal point. My husband is great but he was just as scared. We had a swarm of people in the room and he was pushed to the back so other people can do what they have to do. That for us was a very heavy, emotional moment. I start crying. I start panicking. You know, shaking. It was really heavy. All of a sudden, I don’t know how, but the heartbeat of my son came back on and it was perfect. Looking back and when I asked, they had said that only two or three minutes had passed, but it felt like hours of that panic and not being able to comprehend what had happened in such a short amount of time.And so, they said, “His heart rate is back. It’s stabilized. He is great.” I rested myself back on the bed and I am still shaking. I am still-- you know, I was in shock. I was traumatized in that moment right there. They come in again and they say, “Wow. We know that was super scary. We just want to explain to you that was a Condition O. We were getting you prepped to go in for an emergency C-section. We had to get your son out right in that minute. It was serious.” We started to just look at each other and look around like, “Oh my gosh. How is this happening? What is happening?” And so they said, “Your anxiety caused your son to go into distress in that moment.” I remember going, “Oh my gosh. I haven’t even given birth yet and I’m already messing up.”Being told that your anxiety is causing your son to go into distress, I mean, how can you process that? Where is the evidence behind this? Where is-- you know? How can you blame that moment on me and on the nervousness I was feeling when it just didn’t make sense to me? I just remember sitting there and being told this but feeling still so numb from everything that had happened the last five minutes or however long it had been in that time.Meagan: You know, that is interesting too because your anxiety-- I mean, anxiety in general. I would have anxiety in that moment. That anxiety, you may have been anxious going into the situation, but then the anxiousness was created by what was happening. That is very interesting. I am sorry. I am sorry that you were blamed.Lexus: Yeah. That is exactly what it was. It felt like in that moment there wasn’t really an explanation for what had happened, so it was trying to placate or say, “Well, this is what caused it. It won’t happen again if we just keep this in line, etc.”That was definitely something that had already set me up for the feelings of going, “Oh my gosh. What is going on?” They told us over and over, “It was a fluke. There is absolutely no reason it should happen again. It was an incredibly rare circumstance that it would happen.” They suggested getting the epidural so that if something did happen, I could be awake for my C-section, but there was absolutely no reason to suspect that it would happen. I initially had said I didn’t want the epidural going into it just because it scared me-- the risks and the procedure of getting it scared me in general. It was a scary process to think about. But I said, “Okay, yeah. That is something that I need to do so that I can get the most out of this experience and I can be there for the birth of my son.”I signed all of the waivers and all of the information. They came in and they started to put the epidural in. As soon as it was placed, I knew something was wrong. I remember saying almost instantly, “Only half of me is going numb.” They kept saying, “Well, you have to lay on your other side because the epidural and the medication works by gravity.” I’ve done a lot of research since that time and I know that is not correct at all. Epidurals don’t work via gravity.They had kept telling me, “You have to lay on that side. Keep pushing the button. Keep medicating. Keep switching, but stay on that side if it is still not getting the medication.” So I said, “Okay. We will try it.” I kept laboring. Over the course of the next 10 hours that I labored, I requested, from my memory, four times for a provider to come in and check the placement of the epidural because I still didn’t think that it was correct. My husband remembers more-- more times that I asked, that is, and I remember four very vividly saying, “Something is not right. I have been on my left side this entire time. Something is going on.” Over the course of 10 hours, not a single person from the anesthesiology team came to check on the placement of my epidural. I briefly had providers come in. I shared my concern and it was, “All right, we will pass that along.”When the nurse came in, I said, “Listen, please. Can someone have someone come in and check the epidural? It is not right.” They said, “Well, are you pushing the button?” I said, “Yes. I am pushing the button.” They just said, “All right. We will go let them know. We will send someone in.”So, 10 hours passed. It is insane to think that 10 hours passed and I wasn’t properly-- the epidural was just in my back and not being monitored. They are supposed to be monitored. They are supposed to be checked for placement. When changeovers in staffing happen, there should be someone in there checking it and no one came.And so, I labored. The Foley catheter came out when-- jeez, I think I was 5 centimeters dilated? I can’t remember specifically. That’s when they said, “Okay, we will start the Pitocin. We will keep you going.” I continued to laboring. I believe it was about 9:30 at night that they had said to me, “All right. We are going to check you again.” I was 9 centimeters. I remember looking at my husband and being like, “Oh my gosh. We did it. We are almost there. I am doing great. We are doing great. Everything is great. Nothing scary is happening again. We are doing a good job.”They said, “All right. We are going to have someone come in. We will break your waters and--” Sorry. This is when it starts getting really heavy. “We will--” I’m sorry. “We will have someone come in and we will break your waters. We think that everything will start happening very quickly and you are going to meet your baby soon.” I remember the doctors left and I remember looking at my husband and saying, “We did it. We are here. We are going to see him soon.” We even talked about and joked like, “Where can we set up our phone in the room so that we can record everything and get everything on video so that we can watch it back and we can remember this forever?”I remember saying, “We’ve got to call in my OB. We have to call her. We have to tell her that I made it to 9 centimeters and I did it and we are ready.” And then everything starts to get very heavy to look back and to sort through those memories.My OB came in. She was like, “Oh my gosh, you are doing awesome. You are doing so well. You progressed so fast. Normally first labors can go longer, you are doing great.” My waters had already been ruptured by that point. And so, we were just taking in the moment. All of a sudden, my contractions were really, really close together. But I thought, “Well, I am 9 centimeters. That means I am probably just getting to 10 and I will be ready to go.”And then, those bells that I know I will hear for the rest of my life started going off again. This time my husband and I knew that there were going to be a lot of people coming in, but that it was a fluke and that everything was going to be fine in the next minute. I remember hearing over the loudspeaker, “Condition O. Labor and Delivery Room 11. Condition O.”Everyone came in and then they said, “Her contractions are too close. We have to stop the Pitocin.” And so, they stopped administering the Pitocin. They gave me medication to stop the contractions, but they were too strong. I was contracting about every two minutes at that point and they said, “The baby is in distress. We need to fill her sac up with water again so that he has room.”I remember just feeling like, all of these people were coming at me and pushing these things inside of me. I was just going, “What do I do? What do I do?” just sitting there and it wasn’t working. I don’t know if the water wasn’t retaining or what happened and so then they said, “We still can’t get him on the monitor. We need to attach a monitor to his head.” And so, they were grabbing a monitor and they were trying to attach it to his head. I just kept thinking to myself, “Please, please, please just find the heartbeat. Please, just-- everything is fine. He is going to be fine. Everything is okay.” They kept saying, “Get on your side. On the other side. Get on your hands and knees. Get up. Move.” I remember trying so hard to get myself moving as fast as I could, but I had the epidural and at nine months pregnant, I was a bigger girl.It was hard to get up in that moment and as fast as they wanted me to. I was trying to move, trying to listen to their requests and instructions as much as I could, as fast as I could, but I just felt like I wasn’t able to move fast enough. I remember they said, “Let’s get back on your back.” My OB looked at me and she said, “Lexus, I am so sorry. We are going to bring you right now. We have got to make sure he is okay. We are going to bring you in for a C-section now.” I remember saying, “No. No. That’s not how this was supposed to go. That is not what we had planned. This is not anything that we had planned for.” I just kept saying, “No. No.”I looked up at the new anesthesiologist who was in there and I said, “My epidural hasn’t been working. There’s something wrong with my epidural. I don’t know what’s going on, but only one half of me is numb.” He said, “Oh, we will fix that,” and he pushed another dose of medication. They unhooked me and I looked at my husband and I said, “Please, please come be with me,” because I was so afraid that he wasn’t going to be in the room with me.They were wheeling me down the halls and I just remember seeing again, “Condition O, Labor and Delivery Room 1”1 on the signs in the hallway and hearing the bells. They get me to the delivery room and a doctor I hadn’t met came up to me and said, “I am going to take care of your baby. I am going to make sure your baby is okay.” In that moment, I said, “I am going to die. I am dying. I know I am dying. I am never going to meet my son and my husband needs to be here. I don’t know where he is.” The last time I had seen him, he was putting on his scrubs and he was excited and he said, “I am going to be right there. They’re coming back for me.”And so, they wheeled me into the operating room and I remember some of the nurses were almost frustrated with me because they said, “Get up and get yourself on the bed.” I remember going, “How?” Do you know? How was I supposed to transfer myself over to their table with an epidural being nine months pregnant and being in a lying position, transfer myself over to another bed?Meagan: They actually thought you could move to the other bed by yourself?Lexus: Yes. Yes.Meagan: That’s wild.Lexus: Yes. They just said, “Get up and climb over.” I was like, “How? How can I do this?” I just remembered thinking, “How?” like again, “How am I supposed to do this?” And so, by the time that I finally got help to be moved over, I kept saying, “Where is Bo? I need Bo.” Bo is my husband.I kept saying, “I need Bo. Where is Bo?” I’m sorry. They kept saying, “He is on his way. We are going to get him. We just have to get you set up.” They put up the blue sheet and I looked at one of the nurses and I said, “Please, don’t let my baby die. Please, don’t let my baby die.” I remember they pushed more medication through the IV and they were poking my sides. They poked my right side and asked if I felt it and I said, “No.” And then, they poked my left side and asked if I felt it and I said, “Yes.” They said other things I don’t even remember and then they tried it again. They poked my right side. I didn’t feel anything. They poked my left side. I still felt it. And then they said, “All right,” and took something. I just remember it being so sharp. They pushed on my abdomen and they said, “Do you feel this?” I said, “Yes.” They said, “That’s it. Put her under.” I remember going, “What?” Like, not knowing what that even meant, and then a mask was over my face and that was it.That was the last thing that I heard and experienced in that moment.Meagan: And had Bo made it back in there, yet? No?Lexus: No. Nope. He was still waiting to be brought back. He was still in the room, waiting. I’m sorry. And so, my son was delivered a very, very healthy baby. Thank God. He was 8 pounds, 2 ounces. He was born at 10:28, but these are all things that I have had to be told about my son because I wasn’t there. I wasn’t. Physically I was there, but I was asleep. I wasn’t taking in those moments. I didn’t hear his cry. I didn’t experience anything like that. Instead, I woke up two hours after he was born and I was still so groggy and under the medication and disoriented that I couldn’t open my eyes, but I just kept hearing him crying. And so, instinctually, laying in the bed, and this is something that I will have with me until the day that I die. I was laying there and screaming for help because I couldn’t move my legs and get up to go get my baby. I couldn’t see him because I was so disoriented. I couldn’t open my eyes and look around to see what was going on. I just kept screaming for help. I hear my husband and my mom saying, “Everything is okay. He is okay. He is perfect. He is here. And, look. He is here. Open your eyes. He is right here.” And finally, when I could open my eyes, I remember being-- the first time that I could hold him and just looking at him, I was just so not present and still so confused. I can’t even think of an emotion that I felt other than just confusion.This is one of the beautiful things about that instinctual motherhood where I had had that C-section and I had just had a massive incision on my abdomen, but as soon as they placed him in my arms, I just started rocking back-and-forth. I remember my mom saying, “Lexus, you have got to stop. You have a huge incision on your stomach. You’ve got to stop. You’re going to hurt yourself.” But I just remember that instinctual needing to sway with him and needing to rock him and calm him down. So that was for me, something that was beautiful in that moment I guess I would say, just feeling like as soon as I had him, I could move. I could sway and I could be in touch with that part of me I was having that identity of being a mom.But there were still a lot of pieces that I wasn’t understanding or wasn’t picking up. I kept having to ask my husband, “You were there, right? You saw everything, right? You got to cut his umbilical cord, right?”At the time, he was like, “Yeah, I was there. It was crazy. It was so amazing. Such an experience.” And then, I felt good because I felt like that was one thing I had done right. I had advocated for myself to say, “My husband needs to be here. Where is Bo? Bo needs to be here.” It wasn’t until later-- I think I had asked him like 10 more times, he finally said, “Honey, I am so sorry. I didn’t want to tell you this in the moment because I didn’t want to upset you more. But, I couldn’t be there and the nurses came back to tell me that I had a baby boy and that everything was okay.” He said, “That was it. That was all my experience of that was.”And so, of course, the timing just added up to be the perfect storm. We were in the elevator moving to the maternity side of the hospital. I had just found this out and I was sobbing. Oh my goodness, I was so sad and just feeling like the one thing I thought I did right, I didn’t do right. I just robbed my husband of this experience. It was his first experience becoming a dad and I robbed him of that.So when we get to the maternity side though, what they see is a woman hysterically sobbing and the nurses say overtop to my husband, “Watch out for her, Dad. She is at a greater risk for postpartum depression. It will start with her not eating or not sleeping.” I just remember laying there and being like, “Am I not here right now?”Sarah: Are you kidding me?Lexus: Just say this over me like I was just a body.Meagan: “Watch out for her, Dad?”Lexus: Yeah.Meagan: Ugh, ugh. I have no words.Lexus: Yeah. I just remember looking at my husband and looking back at the nurse and going, “What? What?” You know, just not even being able to fully process it. And so, that was the extent of my birth experience with Teddy. Trauma is definitely a difficult thing because it has the ability to block out certain parts and then have it pop up at random moments. That was pretty much the key parts that I wanted to reiterate and talk about because throughout my time studying, and researching, and trying to learn more, and understand this through and through, I have heard of a lot of women talking about epidural issues, misplacements, asking for help and not getting it, and you know? That was something for me that I thought, “How is this happening?” How are so many women being ignored and not being listened to when they say and advocate for themselves in a very vulnerable, raw moment of giving birth, “Hey, this isn’t right.” They are not being taken seriously.Going forward planning for this VBAC, I have honestly done so, so much to educate myself, to grow in ways that I didn’t know were possible. I saw a provider’s mental health program professional that specialized in perinatal mental health and that was the most healing and therapeutic process that I could have ever-- I truly am so blessed to have found them, to have used them as a resource, and to go through so much treatment with them and grow. I graduated from my birth trauma course— cognitive processing therapy. I couldn’t believe how impactful and how meaningful the entire therapy was and how much it really-- for lack of a better phrase, it lit a fire under me to learn to advocate and then to talk about it.I filed a grievance with the hospital. That was part of my process that I decided was what I needed to do within my CPT. I filed a grievance. I had the grievance meeting with them and I said, “Listen. This isn’t right. What happened to me is not right and I can almost guarantee you that it is happening to other women.” For a moment, it even crossed my mind like, “Do I need to contact an attorney? Do I need to reach out to someone?” But it became that aspect of, if I were to contact an attorney, if I were to reach out for some type of medical negligence or medical malpractice, etc., I would be handed a piece of paper that said, “We will give you X amount if you don’t talk about this again and if you don’t tell anyone what happened.” I sat there for a minute and just went, “Nothing is going to come from this. Being silenced is going to do nothing.”Meagan: Oh my gosh.Lexus: That was with my consulting with many different professionals. It wasn’t anything directly from the hospital that said, “We’ll give you an NDA.” It was really looking at, how are medical malpractice suits handled? It is notoriously with, “We will give you some money if you just don’t talk about it again.” And so, I decided to take the route of talking about it, and researching, and telling my story because it happened to me. I know it happened to me and I know what is happening to other women. The only thing that will change from that moment or I guess I should say really, nothing is going to change what happened during my birth. But talking about it, and advocating, and pushing for trauma-informed care, and pushing for trauma-informed clinicians, and looking at the policies and how they are either being applied or not really just has been the best and most therapeutic way of moving forward from this.Meagan: Wow. Wow. What a heavy experience you have had so far.Lexus: Yeah. It was absolutely everything I never anticipated ever happening for sure. That has definitely led into why I am using a lot of goals for this pregnancy. A goal of mine is for a VBAC and to reach that goal. I am putting in the steps of studying, asking my doctor what their rate of VBAC is, reaching out to other moms, listening to podcasts, and really trying to take it all in, asking about hospital policies how they go about VBACs, how they go about emergencies, Condition O’s, really trying to educate myself and put as much information in my pocket as I can so that in that moment, it is almost muscle memory to know these things, and to push for them, and advocate for them, so I am not scrambling at the last minute.Meagan: Definitely. So, provider-wise now, what have you done to find the provider that is right for you now?Lexus: So actually, I am still going there.Meagan: Or have you found one?Lexus: It’s going to sound strange enough. I am still with the same provider that I was with for the birth of my son.Meagan: Oh really?Lexus: Yes. You know, my provider is incredible and I firmly believe that had they been there the entire duration of my labor experience, things would have absolutely been different. My provider listens, cares, knows me and has been there. I definitely think that things would have been different, but it also goes to say that there is a really strong trauma bond there. This was the provider that was there during those moments where everything went from 0 to 100, and performed the C-section, and made sure my husband got to at least meet my son and be included in the process as much as possible. So, it’s definitely something that I am still really working on. Is this a bond that-- I know it’s a trauma bond, but is it anything that is going to-- basically, I would be delivering in the same hospital.Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say that the place itself could be a trigger.Lexus: Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s something that I am really working on moving forward. That goes partly with my research and asking, talking to doctors, reading about doctors. “What are you doing to be trauma-informed? What education are you still pursuing to make sure that you are up-to-date on birth trauma and moving forward with the process of delivering another baby given such a heavy, heavy trauma that was experienced the first time?” And so, it’s a process. It’s really-- it’s still working and I am still trying to navigate everything and go through the motions of it all.Trauma has a very, very difficult way of manifesting itself with the trauma bond. It’s interesting, and it’s sad, and it’s heavy, and it’s emotional, and it’s all of these things. It’s a learning process and so, I am still reaching out. I am still in touch with my amazing psychologist and birth trauma therapist and working through all of these things trying to figure out what is the best course of action moving forward. But, yeah. It is a process. I have some time, thankfully.Meagan: Yeah, yes. You’ve got a few months.Lexus: Yeah.Meagan: I am so proud of you for doing all of this and working through this. It is a really hard experience to want to touch and go back on, you know? To reflect back on. I think a lot of the time we as human beings, we process our trauma by avoiding it.Lexus: Yes.Meagan: And pushing it away, and compressing it down, and you are bringing it back to light, and even walking through the same doors to fight through this trauma. And so, yeah. Kudos for sure to you. Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that story. I’m so sorry that you had to go through all of that. It definitely sounds like you were mistreated. It’s not fair and it’s not right. I hope that this next experience is very different and uplifting and healing in itself.What other tips, before we wrap up, would you feel that parents out there need to know that maybe have gone through trauma similar, or maybe you haven’t even had trauma, or haven’t even had a baby yet to avoid trauma? Or recognizing if your-- is it even possible to recognize if you are going to a traumatic state in the moment? I actually don’t know the answer to that.Lexus: Yeah, no. I think it’s definitely something that hindsight is always going to be 20/20. Hindsight is always going to show you in those moments when my arms are trembling and I couldn’t process what was going on, I was in a state of shock. I was going through that trauma. Moving forward, speaking to people that have not experienced trauma in any type of way or haven’t experienced it is just, have grace with yourself for not recognizing it in that moment because it is hard. When you are going through a traumatic experience, there are so many other things going on that it’s almost impossible to be able to say, “I think I am being traumatized right now.” So moving forward, if you find yourself not experiencing trauma and then all of a sudden you are in treatment for trauma or etc., just to have grace with yourself for not recognizing it in that moment.I am going to school for counseling psychology. I’m going to school for all of these things. I have been in school for years for this and I still-- in that moment, I had no idea what was going on or what was happening with me. So, it just is looking at-- be patient. Give yourself the grace moving forward and then really trying to figure out how to process it. I guess that’s my tip for having experienced birth trauma. I am very, very grateful for the resource that I had at my fingertips being here in Pittsburgh. The Alexis Joy clinic, absolutely. The Alexis Joy Center for Perinatal Mental Health is the full title. I am so, very blessed to have had professionals in perinatal mental health and professionals that have dedicated their careers to learning about birth trauma, experiences during birth, working through all of the emotions that really-- I knew I was in the right place as soon as I started seeing someone. It was exactly where I needed to be, but unfortunately, it is hard to find centers like that nationwide. Do you know what I mean? In America, we are definitely behind. We are not up-to-date on perinatal mental health. It is flabbergasting to me that we aren’t up-to-date on this and we aren’t as educated, but that is also why I talk. That is why I advocate because more people need to be specialized in this and know how to handle it properly and in a therapeutic manner. So, I think that would be my biggest tip going forward and to also encourage partners to seek out care and to seek out trauma counseling or perinatal resources for partners as well, because they are going through something at the same time as you are. It is different, yes. It is different being the person laying there and the person standing over there, but all the while it is still very-- trauma can impact and does impact everyone in different ways. So, just encouraging families and parents to reach out to specialized providers to do some research on where they can go and knowing that there is a resource for them, knowing that there is always and will be a place that they can go and get the help that they need.Meagan: I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that. I know that your words will inspire and empower people out there who are, like I said, maybe facing trauma, or wanting to avoid trauma, and wanting to know how to work through these avenues. So, thank you so much again for sharing your story. We hope to make this a two-segment episode, the second one being your second birth. We would love to share that, so definitely keep us posted. We are sending you all the love and luck for this next birth.Lexus: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Thank you for giving me this opportunity to find therapeutic healing in any and all ways that I can, and for listening. It means so much to me.Meagan: Absolutely.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. 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