The founder and CEO of The Trade Desk, Jeff Green, talks about the evolution of the premium internet, his obsession with the ad tech supply chain and why the connected TV (CTV) ecosystem is ready for an upgrade.Green explains why The Trade Desk is launching Ventura, a streaming TV operating system, named after the California beach town, to improve the CTV ecosystem for publishers, advertisers and consumers.__________The Current is owned and operated by The Trade Desk Inc.

Toby Espinosa, the VP of DoorDash ads, reflects on the tremendous growth of the delivery platform, saying the key to this is local businesses. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. Damian: [00:00:00] I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse LiffreingDamian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Toby Espinoza, the VP of DoorDash Ads.Damian: And Toby is responsible for connecting brands, local and national, to the more than 37 million customers who place orders on DoorDash marketplaces each month.Ilyse: At this point, DoorDash is a household name, no pun intended. It has more than 7 million couriers delivering orders for DoorDash from around 550, 000 merchants.Damian: Hard to believe that the company was founded just over 10 years ago in 2013. And Toby joined the company in 2015. So he's seen DoorDash go from strength to strength.Naturally, we start by asking him about how the company has changed over the last decade.Ilyse: So Toby, DoorDash celebrated its 10th anniversary last year. And I, I remember when you guys launched, I would just say, because I was like a hungry college student at the time.And it was like, perfect timing to get [00:01:00] anything delivered to my dormToby: And where were you?Ilyse: In San Francisco.Toby: Francisco? No way. Oh, awesome.Ilyse: was like, yeah, it was like I was in the right place at the right time for sure. Yes. And, so how would you say has the company evolved from a food delivery platform to the platform it is today?Toby: When I joined the company, we were in 4, 5 metros.And we were completely focused on one product in four or five markets. And back in 2015 when I joined the food delivery market, as you remember, seamless reigned supreme in New York. Grubhub was in Chicago and everywhere else food delivery was pizza: Domino's, Papa John's, Pizza Hut. And a few local restaurants that were able to afford having couriers. The market, everybody thought, was saturated. We entered, the company had a thesis that the market itself, given the advent of mobile technology, we believed that [00:03:00] if you took this device, this mobile device, where now a dasher had a mobile phone, a consumer had a mobile phone, and actually restaurants had access to this mobile superhighway, that if we connected all of them, there would be a larger opportunity for growth.Growth being the key word there, because as much as DoorDash has changed over the last 10 years, we have gone from a one product, one market business to a multiple product, multiple geography business, with 37 million monthly active users, over 15 million monthly active subscribers to our platform.If you go back to our founding story, Tony, Stanley and Andy, when they started DoorDash, walked down University Avenue in Palo Alto and they went from store to store asking every local business, how can I help you grow? That was the founding question. It wasn't can I build a logistics network, it wasn't, can I build an ad business? It was, “Hey, how can I help you grow?” And the opportunity they found was let's do a restaurant oriented delivery network for everybody across suburban markets. And that's what took off.Ilyse: How would you say that growth has like translated on the ads marketplace side of things? Toby: Yeah.The hard part about building something at the scale that DoorDash [00:05:00] operates is the consumer side. Building a consumer promise and then making that promise better and better and better every day, getting faster and cheaper, that is actually the harder part to find.Product market fit from a consumer perspective. Once we have that, and once we have that, we want to continue to compound that over and over and over againAbout four, four years ago, five years ago, our merchants and so stores within our ecosystem raised their hand and started to ask us, “Hey, do you have any tools to help me grow even faster?” That's how the ad business started. It was a it's very fundamental. It's a core to who we are. It's a growth business. We have customers who want to grow [00:06:00] faster. And what we then tried to figure out was how can we help serve this promise for these customers while also helping our marketplace continue to grow?So the best way to do that is to align incentives, uh, show us the incentive, and we'll show you the outcome that we're driving towards.Our AD team is incentivized both by driving incremental return from a spend perspective for advertisers, as well as driving incremental volume for our consumer marketplace, which is very different than most advertising platforms. Most advertising houses, you have product and tech on one side driving growth, and you have ads trying to monetize it on the other side. We wanted to bring those together to make sure we were able to continue to grow on both sides and serve our customers best. Damian: And cut to date to this rise of, spectacular rise of retail media, which of course is one of the hottest topics right now in our space. DoorDash of course has built its own retail media network in recent years. Could you talk a little bit about how you took some of those concepts you just talked about and built the network?Toby: Yeah, absolutely. So we, again we wanted to be completely aligned with the customer. So the first customer that we started to think about was the SMB owner operator restaurant that we all know, that's in our town.In San Francisco, it's Suvla. In New York, it's Electric Burrito. These places that, these brands [00:08:00] that we are absolutely in love with. What we quickly realize is that person, that customer, there's two fundamental things that are very difficult.The first is that they have to be an expert at 15 different things So, if we own a local restaurant, a local retailer, We have to be great at real estate. We have to be great at marketing. We have to be great at financials. We have to be great at accounting. We have to be great at customer service. We have to be great at creating a great product, which is food, right?And so when we look at this core customer, they're supposed to be an expert at 15 different things Our job is to go after one of those. And make sure that they don't have to think about that growth as [00:09:00] much as they used to by putting a little bit of the burden of that growth on our shoulders. What that means in practice when we launched the business for for SMB customers, we focused on building an economic model that worked for them. Last week, in San Francisco, I went and picked up a salad. at, at one of my favorite, favorite places. And there was a restaurant right next door that had just opened a month in. A month in, and nobody in his restaurant.Completely empty. Maybe three or four people in a, in, that could otherwise have a capacity of 50. And I went online and I looked. He was running advertising across a bunch of different channels that we all know. Snap, Google, Meta, etc.This person was in the red month day one of the month.It's one of the hardest things in this country. These small businesses that start [00:10:00] negative every single month. And on top of that, they also had to layer in more spend on Google and meta to try to get out of that hole.We took the premise of we want to be your growth assistant and we took the premise of it's really, really hard. for you to basically grow your business without having to also add more money into this negative cash cycle.And we said, let's build a product where you do not have to pay us unless you get an order.So unless we send you money, you do not have to pay us. And those two things together have helped us build one of the fastest growing retail media networks, particularly focused on a customer that was completely underserved. Damian: Could you talk about, a little bit more about how you [00:11:00] kind of expanded those relationships with both the national brands, tying that into the local, the business works at a local level fundamentally.Toby: So in the restaurant space. The vast, vast majority of restaurants on Main Street are local. Even if you are a McDonald's franchisee, so you have one of the largest brands, you're a, you're a small business owner.Really, the, the Starbucks, the Chipotles of the world that are corporately owned restaurants at scale are actually the smallest. They're the 10%, not the 90 percent in the U. S. And so our ad product designed on a CPA based level where we can be the growth assistant for all these owner operators is really for the 90.It's built for the majority. Um, that being said, we also just launched, uh, last week the our new product, which is our ad manager and our [00:12:00] ad manager for the enterprise restaurant segment is designed actually to help both the C. M. O. Of McDonald's and the owner operator franchisee within the system. And the way that we've done that is we've actually built the first of its kind way of buying or thinking about purchasing acrossA national media buyer, an agency at the national level, a district media buyer, most of these franchisees actually also have districts, or DMAs, where they have their own pools of funds that can be allocated for growth, and then also at the local level. Incremental to that, not only is if you're a franchisee and you own a couple McDonald's and a couple, uh, you know, a couple Subways and a couple other brands. Now you can also manage your business across brands. It's really the first of a kind product in its space, designed entirely to kind of work between local and national brand.We also, of course, support local. started to invest in larger CPGs. And there, you know, we really look at some of the other large retail media networks in the [00:13:00] space. You know, today I was reading the the amazing work that you all did with a woman who leads Kroger's retail media business and built it from scratch.We find a lot of inspiration from those folks learning, understanding how we can add an incremental service to folks that are already spending a lot of money at other retail media networks. And, um, and I think we found Uh, some very cool opportunities for us there, Ilyse: Very cool. You were saying how it's about 90 percent SMBs and 10 percent um, big business. Um, how does that play out within the DoorDash platform?Toby: yeah.yeah. So so it's really and when I meant that it's kind of think about where the dollars are coming from. So You might think of DoorDash Volume as large businesses. You know, a lot of people are ordering McDonald's. But the reality is the, the spender, the buyer of media could be a local franchisee.So the brand is national, but the spend is still local. That's kind of what I was saying there. On [00:14:00] the, as you know, also on the CPG side, uh, large brands like Pepsi and Coca Cola and P& G, those are large, national, entrenched franchises. Brands. Those are timeless, timeless brands that have been around for a very long time.And so the question there is, how do we build products that are timely to help the timeless? And that's been a very interesting journey for us over the last two and a half years. It's a, it's a new space for us again, as I said. Um, but it's going swimmingly well. And, and today we have the opportunity to sit on stage with, with Pernod Ricard, which is, of course, one of the storied alcohol manufacturers.Ilyse: Um, can you talk a little bit about the Partnerships and how you actually go about working with like those brands and retailers that are using your platform so much Toby: We, like I said, were founded as a growth helper. So built in our DNA is working with others to help them grow.We obviously have a [00:15:00] very large consumer marketplace that is that has helped those businesses grow. And so some of us think of in the same You know, uh, letters of other large consumer marketplaces like an Amazon, uh, like a Walmart e com.But we are fundamentally built in our DNA a partner oriented culture. What that means is first we get to partner with great local brands, mid market brands, national brands, add in the manufacturers, but that also means we get to do fun things like Add in Max, or add in Chase, or add in other folks where there are a lot of people, if given the opportunity, want to help local businesses grow.Our job is to help figure out a way to make that happen. Ilyse: would you say that is captured users I guess and they'reToby: It's a, no, it's a great question. The underlying thing is, how do we do it in a way that continues to compound our consumer promise, which is faster, better, cheaper. And, and, you know, we'll be the first to say there are some partnerships [00:16:00] where it doesn't necessarily help that much.And then there's other partnerships where it has been critical. Think about our Chase partnership and, and the depth in which we've built that partnership over time, where everybody that has a, you know, a Chase credit card has the opportunity to participate in one of the largest subscription, local subscription programs, uh, in the world.And so, some work quite well, others are challenging, and we're a first principled company that, that tries to get better every single day.Damian: Just to on that point are you very strategic about looking for new partnerships you know, that's an interesting one chase and of course there are many others but how do you think about it and go about building those different partnerships.Toby: Yeah it's a collaboration Internally within DoorDash, we have, uh, general managers that run different business units, just as myself. We have functional leaders like our incredible, uh, CMO Kofi, who has built one of the world's largest brands in a span of years, not decades, which is incredibly, incredibly amazing, and he is a celebrity. If you ever want to feel like a [00:17:00] celebrity, just walk with Kofi in Cannes for about 15 to 20 minutes and it'll be the coolest thing you'll ever experience.Um, next year, exactly, exactly. Um, but It's a collaboration across different functions, and then it's a collaboration with a partner. You know, one of the most interesting partnerships that we've launched in the last two years, from my vantage point, is we are a close partner with Amazon in Canada. Now, a lot of folks, when you think of DoorDash and Amazon would say, competitors, that, that doesn't work.Right. But we work really, really hard to try to figure out anywhere, if possible, with the largest businesses and brands that we look up to, is there a place that we can collaborate and again, help local businesses grow. That's the fundamental premise behind the whole thing Ilyse: very cool now what about when it comes to like an ad perspective. How are you working with these brands and partnering with them?Toby: Yeah, we are, I think in the ad ecosystem, you know, it's, it's, it's, there's a simple recipe that we're trying to follow. One is access. So can I [00:18:00] provide access for people to purchase? We, very early on, our first investment was in a self serve ad manager, so that local businesses could purchase our products, both promotions and our ad products, live themselves, without needing to talk to somebody.So that was first. So one is access. That's the news also from last week, where now we provide access to the largest restaurant brands, DMAs, and franchisees across the country. first of a kind product. Again, I know I keep saying that, but I'm very, very proud of it because not many people, not many technologists build for franchisees in this country.And they are one of the largest, um, one of the largest, most hardworking groups of individuals that that again, we look up to. Um, so one is access Two is providing the tools to get the best return possible. So that is, can I do better targeting? Can I? Are there new access points that I can, that I can get to?Along those lines, we've invested a lot in in better targeting again for those enterprise restaurants. [00:19:00] So today you can target new users, you can target lapsed users, you can do that if you're a brand, a small brand like a single owner operator, you can do it if you're a national restaurant, and you can also do it if you're one of the largest brands in the country.So one is better targeting tools and incrementality. And then the final is, is impressions. So, You know, DoorDash, again, we are humbly one of the favorite and largest marketplaces in the country. But we very well know there are other people that are hungry on a daily basis who are not eyes on DoorDash.And so, can we provide the ability for people, uh, for brands to reach those people using our data? And that was one of the announcements we made last week was as well.Ilyse: so one of the things I feel like DoorDash is almost known for in the advertising marketing space is it aligns itself to big occasions throughout the year.Ilyse: I know we saw [00:20:00] DoorDash for the Super Bowl, Mother's Day. Can you talk about how you plan for such occasions? And maybe what's your favorite one to work at on and be like presentToby: maybe what's Yeah We have learned over time that these occasions. Because we learned from our core customers, both the consumer and merchants that these occasions are important to them.So if you think of, if you think of Super Bowl, imagine you are a local owner operator of a wing restaurant in Tulsa. Super Bowl is your Super Bowl, right? It is the biggest day of the year where you sell out your entire inventory at the staff up, you have to build for it. We wanted to follow our customers into that moment.Mother's Day, huge moment.Both for folks where it's a special day to remember somebody or for folks that are trying to be a mother for the first time, right? So you have this both, both signs, [00:21:00] an incredible opportunity to reach consumersfrom an advertising perspective. Again, going back to partnerships, they're tricky.You have an advertiser who's excited to also follow you into that occasion. And what we try to do with these three way partnerships, we've done them with Wendy's, we've done them with Roku, we've done them with many others, trying to find three way alignment of incentives to, to again, drive local growth for our customers.Damian: I think one of the best gifts I ever got, was when my son was born somebody bought us a DoorDash gift card which was so helpful to have food delivered you know when you’re at home with this tiny little baby.Ilyse: Showing up at those occasions, but also, you know, just ongoing brand campaigns. How does that proximity, why is it important for brand building? How does this, like, enable you to extend into new categories?Toby: Yeah, have you? Um, Our Super Bowl commercial is a great example of this. This past year, uh, the words were a door to more DoorDash went from again being a single vertical single product company to a multi vertical multi product company in a very, very, very fast time frame. Now, consumers are incredible.They learn very quickly. Habits are harder to change and harder to adapt and move over [00:23:00] time. And so we are in the earliest innings of our consumers really understanding that now you could actually get a pair of sneakers delivered to you on DoorDash when you need a new pair, like I did this weekend in order to go for a run.And in that moment, being able to kind of jump on these large consumer moments help from our vantage point.Our 37 million monthly active users start to understand that really DoorDash is here as an assistant in your life across all of these categories and verticals whenever you need us. We aren't just Thai food, now we're also the ability to get something, uh, to get something when you're feeling sick.And, um, and we're very, very proud to do that and very humbled to do that for our customers. Damian: Yeah. that's uh, expanding the whole concept of, of of DoorDash. Um, speaking of expanding the concept, you know, you've also cultivated good partnerships with streaming partners, and you [00:24:00] mentioned Max a little bit earlier. Why is it that streaming and delivery seem to kind of work in synchrony? Toby: it's again, I think it goes back to the moment. There's a very happy moment in my household when we finish work. And we have some, we get a little, a door, a little ring on our door, and there's a package outside, and it's filled with two burritos. And we get to turn on Max and watch industry. There's a sliver of moment in time where we're just feeling absolute happiness and joy.Now, that is a moment that a lot of consumers around the country and around the world feel. We're trying to give everybody a little bit of time back. Again, this concept of putting the weight of other things on our shoulders as a company to help people, to help local economies grow, to help [00:25:00] save consumers time, to help Dashers make a little bit of extra money.That is what we are trying to do at Dash. And so, aligning ourselves in this moment of peace. This moment of just absolute happiness with a streaming service, which all of us experience,is a very nice moment to be right next to, uh, to be right next to these brands from a consumer perspective. And so they've been, they've been very, they've been great partnerships so far.We're very excited, uh, about, about thinking about finding more of those opportunities as time goes Damian: about door dashes as a way to get time back, you know, but of course it does doesIlyse: There's too many things to worry about outside of that. Damian: we're going to ask the inevitable question about AI and how, you know, obviously door dash must be integrated with AI technology. But how do you think about it as we look ahead?Toby: We, as a company were very [00:26:00] data driven company. We have been from our founding. Again, we are riding on the backs of one of the largest technological revolutions of our time, the Internet and then the Internet plus mobile. And so to say that we want to be and continue to be students about how this next revolution will change, both from.from our merchants, consumers and dashers lives. We are in the very earliest innings and we're trying to learn as fast as possible. Um, I think what's very exciting if you kind of take a step back and you again put on the mindset of the shoes of we are trying to be an assistant for all of our customers across a bunch of different ways.Dasher Make, uh, from a financial services perspective, helping them make more money, helping them find more opportunities to make money, consumers saving time, and merchants making more. If you kind of put yourselves in all those shoes, and we're trying to be an assistant, AI as a technology will only help accelerate our mission of doing that and then unlocking growth for local.I think we're going to [00:27:00] see one of the largest increases in, in growth that we desperately, desperately need for those. Places that are our favorite coffee shop, Thai food place, uh, and, and, um, you know, and place to go pick up your, your, your meds when you're a little sick. And so it's, it's a pretty cool future.We're very excited for it.Damian: in his 50 seatToby: I, we are absolutely, we, to be, to be clear, we DoorDash. He's now using our ad product. So if we can send them any incremental customers, it'll help them. It'll help them grow his business. Damian: There's one more question, I guess. And it's a sort of like a forward looking question. And it's are there any innovations that you're thinking about into 2025 that can help with this growth mindset that you've been talking about? Toby: we, We've done an okay job. We've done a great job of the access point, which is opening up an ad manager, [00:28:00] opening up a self serve sponsored listing, allowing CPG brands to access our consumers. We've done it. We've done a great job at that. We've done an okay job at the second two, which is.once you open up a lot of this inventory and help find ways to grow, it gets complex.I think we've added incremental complexity so far to our customers' lives for most of our customers, our advertisers, and so our team is extremely excited, looking forward to continue to take more of the complexity out of our customer's lives as we layer in more complexity. On the product and engineering platform that we've built internally, and that is a very hard problem to solve, but I have one of the best teams to help us go solve that, and we're very excited to take it on.

SiriusXM Media’s Lizzie Collins joins The Current Podcast to discuss artificial intelligence, omnichannel campaigns and how influencers should utilize podcasts. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. [00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler. [00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing [00:00:02] Damian: And welcome to this edition of the Current Podcast. [00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Lizzie Collins, the SVP of Ad Innovation and B2B Marketing at SiriusXM Media, the advertising arm of SiriusXM, which includes Pandora, the SiriusXM streaming network, as well as the podcast network. [00:00:21] Damian: There are likely very few people who know more about audio ad innovation than Lizzie, who was actually the very first salesperson at Pandora back in 2006.  [00:00:31] Ilyse: As a leader at SiriusXM Media, her focus is growing the largest digital audio ecosystem in North America. [00:00:39] Damian: So without further ado, we'll start by asking Lizzie about what advertisers need to know about the audio ad opportunity in 2024.   [00:00:47] Ilyse: So Lizzie, tell us, what is it that advertisers need to know about the opportunity to reach people on audio channels? [00:00:55] Lizzie: Yea, and thanks for having me. I love what you said about, I know everything about audio, but it's been quite a ride from 2006 until now. And I'd say that in this current moment in time, audio has such an important place in the consumer's life. 31, 32, whichever number you want to get hooked to percent of time spent with media is the audio format, and yet marketers are only allocating somewhere between 8, 9 under 10 percent of their media investment to this format. [00:01:21] So first and foremost, I want advertisers to know just the power of audio. It is an opportunity to reach customers in places where you can't reach them via display or video. It has the power to turn on their brain in a unique way because you have the theater of the mind that has to like fill in the pictures and the faces. [00:01:38] And so cognitively, it's just such a powerful way to message. And so when you match the power of the format with, Oh my gosh, there's all this incremental time that I'm not messaging to them. We just think there's a real opportunity in audio in general. [00:01:54] Ilyse: So looking at podcasting at least, podcasting isone of the fastest [00:02:00] growing digital channels. How have you been able to grow programmatic at Sirius XM and Pandora? [00:02:49] Lizzie: Well podcasting, I think we all love. We're here on a podcast. So this is very meta talking about podcasting on a podcast. I love that. I want to point that out for the listeners. podcasting is not [00:03:00] necessarily new, but the ability for advertisers to buy it at scale with maybe an audience based buying strategy with all of the tracking and targeting that they're used to in digital is what we've really foundationally been putting in place for the last two years. [00:03:13] So what many don't know is that SiriusXM Media, Pandora, SoundCloud, and all of our other partnerships operate on the AdsWiz platform. And we are an audio first technology company. We built all of our own audio, ad delivery, ad serving, tracking, and whatnot. The opportunity to modernize the podcast space is what's really been the key factor for us to drive revenue in that space. [00:03:35] And then specific to programmatic without those pipes, right? Without that ability to do dynamic ad insertion, to target audiences, to onboard data, and then digitally deliver those ads, you were going to have buyers doing what they were doing historically one show at a time. I can't tell you the stories, the horror stories of going into the clients and saying, here's our spreadsheet where we're tracking the [00:04:00] podcasts we think we should be buying based on Joe podcast guy in the corner who just happens to know the most about podcasts. [00:04:06] So It's, the first step was putting that foundational ad tech in place. And the second step has been taking all of what advertisers appreciate in terms of programmatic transaction and bringing it to podcasting. And that's where IAB and others are referencing this significant growth because it's this bringing the best of two worlds together into this medium. [00:04:26] Ilyse: What would you say are the advantages to programmatic ad buying on audio networks? How is it audience first? Well, [00:04:34] Lizzie: Well, I think overall you're seeing a big trend in advertisers. Brands, even within the client agencies, publishers wanting to reduce friction on the buy side and the transaction as a whole. So programmatic obviously has been that promise for, gosh, over a decade now, right? To Create just an effortless buying transaction. [00:04:57] And so when we think [00:05:00] about audio more specifically and audience based buying, like we have to be able to connect all of those pipes and be able to not be this hard to buy. Product. And so we've, you know, I spoke to that in my last example. that's been so much of the work we've done the last two years. [00:05:16] And then because of all of that, we're a little different than some other audio partners were open ecosystem. So we will work with any third party measurement vendor, transaction partners like the trade desk, um, targeting partners like Comscore and advertisers obviously have their own data and their own ways in which they want to measure. [00:05:34] And so that's also been, a huge breakthrough for us. For us in terms of allowing you said audience based buying. I mean, just allowing our clients to address their customers in this format in the most effortless way  [00:05:46] Damian: One of the things that's interesting about audio is how it's different from, TV, which has traditionally been a big brand building medium. Of course, that's changing too because of CTV, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts on how Pandora thinks about [00:06:00] his ad offerings in terms of the balance between big brand campaigns and performance.  [00:06:06] Lizzie: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I think what's hidden in this question is creative in general and trying to help brands understand the power of what audio creative can do. It can create. effortlessly travel cross device, right? It can reach customers where they're not seeing a video ad or they're not seeing a display ad. [00:06:27] It can get right literally into their ears. And I talked about, the power of that. And so we, I would say, do talk to our customers about different products, drive different results. Of course, you might want mass reach and super efficient for, some effort. That you're trying to push maybe top of funnel or you need something super geo targeted You want to move specific product off a store shelf? [00:06:50] Yeah, that can impact targeting and that can impact some of what we sell you based on price But we spend a lot more time through our in house agency studio resonate [00:07:00] Helping to educate our customers on the right way to bring the video message into the audio format. If they're a video first creative agency, and that starts with an audio brief, you'd be surprised how many agencies do a creative brief and it doesn't include audio as a way to interpret the brand or determine the call to action. [00:07:20] And so once we get going in that direction, then we can take all aspects of their KP eyes and build custom creative to meet the needs of whatever they're trying to get the consumer to do. I love [00:07:30] Damian: I love that, can I ask a follow up question about that? What would you say are some of the salient points about building a good audio brief? Well, [00:07:47] Lizzie: is the largest podcast network for women in the United States. We beat everyone else. And it's that type of insight and then the creators that are within our podcast network to say, look, [00:07:58] Lizzie: Ashley Flowers is here. [00:07:59] She's a [00:08:00] massive star in the podcast world. She really has a tempo to her shows. It's true crime. These listeners are so leaned in that you don't need a music bed. You don't need a scream at the listener in that example, which might be more of a sort of traditional upbeat 15 second audio spot that might live in a music station. [00:08:19] And so a lot of it is trying to understand the customer. Then. What is the, context in which we're targeting? And then of course we have a million best practices about, testing creative. And we use a lot of third parties to come in and actually pre test creative. of course we have all of our own technology, which I mentioned. [00:08:34] So we'll AB test creative. and again, what I love about audio is that it's pretty effortless to build an audio ad. you can go from brief to a spec spot, 30 minutes. Or less if we're talking about a I produced creative, which we can talk about, too. And so to be able to have all that optionality for an agency to play with actually helps inform a lot of landing the brief. [00:08:58] And then, of course, we have something to [00:09:00] live with throughout a campaign to reach back to [00:09:02] Damian: So it's getting a lot more nuanced now that you mentioned creativity, and that's very interesting. [00:09:07] Lizzie: It's getting more nuanced because, look, you said I was the first salesperson at Pandora and I was, and we were only ever inserting a 15 or a 30 second spot in between your favorite song. Now we're talking about spoken word content, podcast, it could be sports, it could be country music, you're talking about, and then in car. [00:09:26] at home mobile. So the good news is all of that signal capture we do on our end that we can understand where ultimately this ads running and then that informs how many creative options you need. But it's not like video where that would take months to do, right? This is copy to add is quick. [00:09:54] Ilyse: When it comes to being more nuanced, looking at podcasts for instance, there’s so many different types op podcasts like true crime you brought up. I like those ones as well. Like crime junkie, [00:10:00] for instance. What kind of audiences are they attracting? And what does that mean for advertisers? [00:10:06] Lizzie: So the Sirius XM podcast network is over 2500 shows. So you're talking about we're have the most shows in the top 50, but we also have great shows, middle and long tail. And so, it's as diverse as everybody's tastes. I mean, everything from vibe check, which is three African American gay, really outspoken guys that do the latest on news interpreted from their eyes and their ears all the way into crime junkie all the way into sports. [00:10:34] we have shows about car racing, right? So it's That's what's so special about podcasting. But what's unique about Sirius XM and our specific network is that you don't have to come in and buy one show at a time. You can come in and say, I want women over index and true crime. So that's going to be a nice part of your buy. [00:10:53] and that's something unique , to what we offer.  [00:11:00] Ilyse: It's surprising to me, women and true crime for some reason.  [00:11:01] Lizzie: I know. You know what? I think it's because so many women want to escape. They're day for a moment, all of our beloved housewives at home, like commuting kids around. And it's very cerebral. what's really cool about true crime that I don't think a lot of people understand if you don't listen, is it's problem solving. [00:11:21] It's like really detailed, trying to get to the bottom of what happened with the story. And I think it turns the brain on in a way that is invigorating.  [00:11:29] Ilyse: Yeah, on that note, is True Crime like one of the most popular or what are some of those popular genres [00:11:36] Lizzie: there's so many. Comedy is very popular. Team Coco with Conan O'Brien is within our network. Smartless is a really popular TV show. Sort of mixed in with almost pop culture and comedy. sports is growing fast and specifically, women's sports, which is great. And what, I think is fun about that is there's so much story to tell behind the scenes in sports. [00:11:58] And I think podcasts can do that in a [00:12:00] way that linear TV can't, news, true crime like we mentioned. And yeah, those would be like my tops. [00:12:07] Ilyse: Very cool. Why do you think women's sports is growing [00:12:09] Lizzie: I just think there's so much of a story to tell about a lot of the women athletes and it's all over the news, right? What's happening in women's basketball, women's soccer is now a professional sport where you can make a career at it. I think there's just so much growth in terms of audiences leaning in and there's a bunch of commercial opportunity there. [00:12:29] And so, women want to tell, women want to tell their story. And you can do that in podcasting in a way you cannot do in other media types. That's why we're here! [00:12:38] Damian: exactly. Yeah. Now, according to your research with Edison, 66 percent of Gen Z podcast listeners say they listen to or watch podcasts to stay up to date with the latest topics. But only 17 percent say they trust the info they read on social media, our podcast hosts, the new, more trusted social media influences. [00:12:58] Lizzie: I mean, yes, [00:13:00] short answer is yes, but I don't think it's just podcast. I think any influencer out there that is very invested in their craft and their trade and having a commercial opportunity and being an influencer understands the power of how podcasting and audio more specifically helps them reach their audience. [00:13:16] So Ashley flowers is a great example. She's on social all the time, whether she's talking about fashion or her famous lip color or what shows are coming up next, different cases that she's, researching. [00:13:28] And so you'll often see her listeners kind of go back and forth on social and that ultimately informs her show. And so this, ecosystem connection is what these influencers are after. And I think the power of the podcast format is they can just tell deeper stories and therefore tell deeper, you know, why to buys for the products that are integrated. [00:13:49] So some are probably more comfortable than others, but the audio influencer, and the other thing to add is just like they're connected to their audience in a way off social media and into the [00:14:00] podcast where they can just use more words. They can just describe something beyond the snippet based format that is social for all of us.. [00:14:12] Damian: And why is that effective for advertisers? Why is that helpful? [00:14:14] Lizzie: I just think they can riff. It's just it's out again outside of the 15 or 30 second window. They can riff about why they like the product. They can go deeper into the benefits of it or what is cool about it to them. so personal endorsement. I mean, that's what they're able to do in that space. [00:14:29] And it's a super powerful way for advertisers to drive, their KPIs.  [00:14:34] Damian: So, when it comes to that omni channel experience, podcasts are, and you mentioned that you're part of this open network. It's good for advertisers to be able to reach their audience on the podcast, but beyond that, it can obviously, drive an omni channel campaign. [00:14:51] Lizzie: Yeah. And I'm glad you brought that up. We were so curious about what is the true income mentality of a podcast listener. And [00:15:00] so for the last year, we've been analyzing campaigns. We actually analyzed over 2000 campaigns to determine when we add podcasting to a streaming plan, how much more incremental reach. [00:15:11] And it depends on the campaign. But the mean was 32%. Incremental audience was captured in the podcasting line, essentially being added to the order. And so without that, those customers would have never been messaged. And I think that's just a really good example of the power of what Sirius XM media brings to bear. [00:15:29] Even in the audio space, we have such a multi channel opportunity for our marketers. [00:15:34] Ilyse: So, I saw an interview with you last year talking about how advertisers can use AI to save costs. And that's seems like a very common refrain in the industry right now because things have moved very fast on the front. How are you thinking about a I in 2024 this year? Yeah, you [00:15:54] Lizzie: you know, there's a lot. [00:15:56] Lizzie: around AI, a lot of buzz and how does it ultimately [00:16:00] land for each of us to make our lives easier or to augment what we're already doing. And one of the things that we see with smaller brands and smaller buys is that sometimes they feel like there's a barrier of entry if they don't have audio creative. [00:16:17] And so we've done a lot of testing to leverage AI to be able to like. self service, the creative process. And so, that's where we're leveraging AI, which is just to take a company that, might be in media agency. That's of one person, right? That kind of like kitchen counter, digital marketer that might have a couple clients. [00:16:35] Maybe they have a couple car dealers or maybe they have a couple of doctor's offices. And so we have a really great product that they can use in our audio go, which is our self serve buying tool to just come in and quickly make an audio ad. and they're off to the races. And so that's where we've tried to bring it forth is just where can we make someone that might be stuck because they don't have the resources, how can we help them scale? [00:16:58] And so AI [00:17:00] helps us do that. I think there's also a future of where we'll see AI show up and how we're just crunching numbers for our clients and how we're processing data. It's just about speed and scale. It's not going to replace our creators. We're, there's no AI Conan coming anytime soon. [00:17:16] Ilyse: a particular sector of brand that have been, more friendly towards audio ads or have approached audio? More enthusiastically than others? Mm [00:17:29] Lizzie: years into this selling audio business. And I would say years ago, yes, it would be, entertainment really understood the power of it. And maybe someone like CPG was like, ah, if I don't show the girl shampooing her hair, how's anyone going to understand how this product works? [00:17:44] But we're so past that. There's no one vertical. I think just the one. Overwhelmingly, it's just an underspent problem and that audio and the consumer behavior and audio is outpaced the marketer's investment. So that's just most of what we spend time helping them to [00:18:00] understand. [00:18:02] Damian: Do you still think, given the big opportunity that audio represents, there's a lot more education to be done for marketers? And what does that look like? Yeah. [00:18:28] Lizzie: is last click attribution. Not to say that everyone's doing that now. [00:18:31] Many of our customers are going to more of a mixed media model. And so it's just helping them to figure out where do you put audio in your measurement plan? How do we work together to make sure you're understanding where you're delivering impressions against what customers and how ultimately that's driving your KPIs. [00:18:48] But it requires a conversation and education because they're not inherently, if they're not buying it, they don't know how to measure it and they could be undervaluing it or giving value to a different partner because they weren't capturing the right [00:19:00] data signal. [00:19:01] Ilyse: How do you guys measure it? [00:19:03] Lizzie: So it depends on what they're looking for. Of course, there's many amazing third parties out there that were integrated with to measure everything from store traffic to attitudinal intent. but again, back to the fact that we own all of our own ad tech, we sit on The right data in a very privacy safe place to be able to work with clean rooms or work with advertisers directly or partners to share impression level data or whatever is the right signal in order for them to recognize if that customer converted so it's not rocket science. [00:19:32] All of us that are in this space understand how it works, but because we sit on all of our own ad tech and we're open to working with anyone, we personalize it for whatever the customer wants.    [00:19:42] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:19:44] We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:19:47] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns. [00:19:55] I'm Damian. [00:19:55] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:19:56] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report. 

The reservation platform Resy centers itself around the communal experience that comes from dining, affirming and building connection between restaurants and diners, according to CMO Hannah Kelly. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler. [00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing [00:00:02] Damian: welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Hannah Kelly, the CMO of Resy. [00:00:09] Damian: Want to make a restaurant reservation? American Express owned Resy is there for you. With over 40 million global users, the app has driven over 600 million reservations. Now that's a lot of fine dining, I imagine. [00:00:23] Ilyse: With almost 14 years of working at American Express under her belt, Hannah leads marketing efforts to connect restaurants and tastemakers. [00:00:31] Damian: We start off by talking about the value of customer data and how insights inform Resy's marketing strategy.  [00:00:38] Damian: We work in an industry where, data is capital. You know, how does Resy rely on the customer data, especially from its parent company, American Express? [00:00:47] Hannah: Sure. So thank you so much for having me. And you could argue that the premise of the Resyacquisition was based on American Express's deep use of data. So when we look at spend at American Express, dining one [00:01:00] of our highest spend categories. We reached 100 billion in spend for the full year in 2023 for the first time ever. [00:01:06] So for us, being an American Express and in the business of membership, we are constantly looking for ways to engage and attract card members and deepen our relationships with merchants. Resy naturally presented that opportunity as a way for us to own an asset, own a brand, and build a community of being able to connect the world's best restaurants to the world's best diners on a proprietary basis. [00:01:28] Damian: That makes a lot of sense. I, as an Amex owner, do spend a lot in restaurants. I wonder if you have any interesting stories around turning those insights into action. [00:01:38] Hannah: Sure. So, We know that millennials and Gen Z's are worried about making the perfect reservation. In fact, we commissioned our own research and we found that 50 percent of the millennial and Gen Z population are worried about making the perfect reservation. [00:01:52] And so with that, that drove three sort of primary objectives and campaigns for us. So first is our brand platform. we launched a brand platform in [00:02:00] 2023 called Reservationships, which is really meant to highlight how that Resy is more than reservations, really being that trusted partner in crime when you don't know where to go. [00:02:09] You want to have that fine dining moment with your potential in laws to be with a new date. How can we really own the fact that Resy has served as that sort of curator, and role. I think the second piece has been, this past year we introduced our Resy shareable hit list. so what that function allows you to do in the iOS app is anyone can go in and create a list based on any title that you want. [00:02:31] Go to date nights. Kid friendly places. You name it. We have some very creative takes in there. and you can share them out with friends. So again, it's really meant to give users the confidence that they are selecting and making the best reservation possible for them. [00:02:48] Hannah: And we've extended that and really leaned into that a bit more with our third deliverable this year, which has been around the launch of our discover tab. [00:02:54] So now when you go into the Resy app, you not just only see a list of restaurants based [00:03:00] on your location or cities. We've always had collections, but now our discover tab actually brings in all of our editorial content into the app. And just for reference in Q one of 2024, we highlighted over 000 plus restaurants in all of our editorial across 300 stories. [00:03:17] So now all of that content is there in formats that can helpfully guide users on how they can connect with restaurants that they should love if they don't know them already and ones that they want to continue to celebrate their love for and be a patron of. [00:03:28] Ilyse: You know, retail data continues to have a moment among marketers. In your experience, how much do these insights influence your strategy? And what do you think is the future of this type of data? [00:03:42] Hannah: So I think for us, guest research is the number one place that we constantly look to. And for us, a lot of that is where are people notifying, where are people searching, where are people dining. And at American Express, we're able to see where our card members are spending. And with Resy, we're able to see where they're searching. [00:03:57] And we use that to inform our research. Anything from [00:04:00] the restaurants that we go after on our platform. So being really thoughtful around what are the types of cuisines that might be missing? What are the types of underrepresented cuisines or restaurants that we need to bring onto our platform? So what's not being searched for? [00:04:11] and then obviously our product offering. So as mentioned, really trying to tap into ways that we can not only help diners based on research that we've collected, but also By introducing the discover tab by introducing things like shareable hit list. Those give us new avenues to really discover. What are the trends and what are the capabilities and offerings that Resy can provide? [00:04:31] And even more importantly, what can we pass to our restaurants that they could learn about guests that they might not be able to get on their own? So we think about it not only as What type of research can we use to improve the experience around discoverability and in restaurant dining, but also think about how we can use that a differentiator for our partners and for our restaurants on our platform as well. [00:04:51] Ilyse: That's, that's made me curious. What is the, most popular cuisine that Resy users are, [00:05:00] are making reservations for? [00:05:01] Hannah: I don't know the exact cuisine type, but I can tell you we typically look at the types of cities that we see a lot of dining demand around, and we use that to really guide where we have a lot of our restaurant partners. We also really care about shining a light on underrepresented food types as well. [00:05:16] So, We did a ton of work during, COVID 19 around highlighting the importance of Chinatown and the love stories of Chinatown, knowing that there is xenophobia happening as a result of the pandemic. also in the spring of 2020, when we think back to the wake of George Floyd, looking at how we can really highlight black owners and operators and chefs in our community. [00:05:35] And that's something that we had always done. So, we again look at what's been searched, what hasn't been searched and really how we want to perpetuate the diversity, and future of the industry in the best way possible. [00:05:47] Damian: You mentioned the site is more than a reservations app, and you're basically building kind of editorial and curated content. that's fascinating. could you say a little bit more about that and how you target taste makers and [00:06:00] people in the know and those underrepresented kind of food types that you mentioned? [00:06:04] Hannah: So believe it or not, we get asked all the time if restaurants have to apply to be on Resy and what the selection process is. There is no selection process. Any restaurant can pay to be on Resy. But I think the reason why we get that is because of how we are able to surface and highlight the restaurants on our platform in a way that goes beyond just the menu and when their hours of operation are. [00:06:27] So for us, that's really thinking about the editorial stories, as mentioned, where we have, A whole entire editorial team that's dedicated to coming up with ongoing franchises, like the one who keeps the books, which is our most popular, where we see, our guests going in and figuring out of the top restaurants from the actual owners and operators, when they release inventory, how they release inventory, and how best to get seated, also longer form content as well. [00:06:52] Beyond our edit. We're really an experiential brand as well. We'll do around 200 events by the end of [00:07:00] 2024 with restaurant partners. Why? Because we know that our guests want to be able to experience restaurants and get that behind the scenes, behind the curtain look and feel. And our restaurant partners view us as a co conspirator and collaborator. [00:07:13] We meet with our top restaurant partners. Frequently and instead of saying, Hey, how is your performance with Rosie? How are you enjoying? We talk about what are your 5 10 year growth plans? What are you thinking about in the immediate future that's keeping you up? What story do you want to be able to tell? [00:07:27] What opening do you have? What new product? What front of house team member do you want to celebrate and really use that to help guide and inspire how we create a lot of our content, not just for edit, but in real life experiences. Yes. [00:07:48] Damian: I suppose that feeds into that in many ways. But, how do you strike a balance between telling those stories and your own story? It's [00:07:57] Hannah: not about us. people care about Resy because of the [00:08:00] restaurants on our platform. And I think Resy, when it was founded in 2014, really came out with a differentiated view, which is we want to be for restaurants by people from the restaurant community. And it's not about the dollar that Resy wants to spend. [00:08:13] It's to take or make from the restaurant partners. So we've really maintained that not only in our business offering but in our brand story. And when I look at the reservations platform that we developed last year, it's not about Resy and about how great Resy is. It's about the relationships. that we broker, broker between restaurants and the broader industry and the community. [00:08:33] So all of the B to B and industry support that we do, on the guest side, obviously building relationships and starting new ones between guests and hopefully restaurants that they want to become a regular with and between our diners as well, celebrating why people love going out. And when we look at our editorial, we're trying to curate around insights. [00:08:52] [00:09:00] Um, it's really about creating a platform and owning the fact that we are a network and that our restaurants are greater than us. And in doing that and having the right level of gravitas towards our partners. In turn, I think that's what has allowed Resy y to become a little bit more of a darling than maybe some of our competitors. [00:09:20] Damian: So interesting. And in terms of, like, the results that you're seeing from this kind of, integration of these different stories and balancing between restaurants and guests, are there any new innovations that you're looking at this year to kind of keep that in motion? Yeah, [00:09:35] Hannah: I think this year. So the discover tab and our shareable lists were really big launches for us this year. So it's really starting to think about what that ecosystem looks like and owning that as a platform for our guests in our restaurants to tell their story. [00:09:51] I think also leaning into our relationships with our partners. So this summer, what's really exciting in a prime example of this is the [00:10:00] Unapologetic experience that we push live with our partners at Unapologetic Foods. So, for context, Unapologetic Foods is a hospitality group, Indian hospitality group, based in New York. [00:10:11] Very, very highly sought after restaurants, such as SEMA. and in fact, the New York Times did an entire story on how you could get into SEMA. Um, it Yeah, [00:10:21] Ilyse: jealous of them all. [00:10:23] Hannah: Which, by the way, the Resy Notify does work for SEMA. I can't tell you how many friends have texted me to say, I got off the list at SEMA, the feature works. [00:10:31] I'm like, thank you so much for validating. Also, going early works as well, which you'll find in the one who keeps the books. But, a prime example of this year and how we've really kind of put all these insights to practice has been when we met with Ronnie, the owner of Unapologetic Foods. I think it's really important to note that, when I was in the United States last year, he had really expressed a deep desire to try and get the word out and spread the word and love of Indian food outside of the major cities in the United States. [00:10:58] so basically trying [00:11:00] to make Indian food as mainstream as American or as Italian and how it's pretty underrepresented. He was a crazy thought, but I just wanted to share that with you. That's what I'm really thinking about. He said, Absolutely not crazy. Let's actually sit and think about how we could create a tour, what that experience would look like, really taking a nod and inspiration from him. [00:11:20] His dream was to go on tour. We pulled on that thread, and this past summer we have gone live in three different cities, L. A., Chicago, and D. C., at different Southeastern Asian cuisine. [00:11:31] Ilyse: glad to [00:11:31] Hannah: Those chefs collaborated with Ronnie and his team on a custom menu. There's content around it. And again, our job there is greater than Resy. [00:11:39] It's greater than a reservation. It's really about. So we're here at the Anna Jack Thai restaurant, unlocking something that was important to our partners. We had an hour long wait at the Anna Jack Thai experience the first night, even some influencers who were not asked to go standing in line for over an hour, which, again, is a testament to, I think, tapping into a real trend, but that really coming from an authentic place [00:12:00] from the restaurants on our platform and treating them as collaborators. [00:12:03] Damian: I just want to say I'm glad to hear that about Indian food because, you know, I'm originally from Britain and, Indian food is our number one cuisine. So it was always amazing to me that it was never that big in the U. S. I certainly, I think maybe New York it has been because there's a special area to the city, but in general, it's good to hear [00:12:19] Hannah: It's not the same as Britain. it's really not. And I think with Ronnie, his staff and the front of house team, they take the time to really educate you. So if you go to SEMA, They'll give you the menu, they'll assess, what you're there for, why, but they have no problem demystifying and taking the lead on walking you through why each dish is special, why their biryani has a very special rice, which is different because of the region of India that the chef is from versus what you might see somewhere else and calling attention to things that diners might not pick up on other than like, Oh, I know I need to go here because it's a hot reservation. [00:12:54] They really take the time to use that as an opportunity to tell a bigger story and hopefully make a bigger impact. [00:13:00] Now you've spent [00:13:02] Ilyse: years working at American Express. That's like a tenure that's almost unheard of in today's working landscape, let alone marketing. And you've worn many hats at American Express. So we're going to talk a little bit about your experience along the way. How has this experience shaped your philosophy now as CMO? [00:13:17] Hannah: already shaped your philosophy now. At American Express, I had come from fashion PR, which was very much here's this asset. Here's this piece. Go pitch it, send out a sample, get it back, and it felt very transactional. I started on the open brand strategy team, which was our small business branded American Express at the time, and the number one thing the team was focused on was this new report that had come out around what is on the mind of a small business owner, and the number one [00:14:00] insight was help me get more customers. [00:14:02] And in that moment, I remember sitting in this conference room thinking, Oh, God, how is American Express going to tackle this? What do we do? And really, it was diving in and understanding they just need a day. They need a moment that's going to get people to go out and shop. So with the partnership of many agencies and teams internally, we came up the most simple idea possible, which was small business Saturday. [00:14:25] And here we are entering its 15th year. It launched with a Facebook page and really just anything possible to help get more business to small businesses was the premise. Since that time on, and now almost 14 years later, I've always tried to think about what is that deeper, higher order insight that we have the opportunity to serve and have translated that through all the many years and months of experience in American Express and now Resy and Resy, we acquired and closed Resy in July of 2019. [00:14:56] We're in the process of integrating the companies, making [00:15:00] sure that we're keeping Resy and figuring out how we bring the best to bear of American Express. And then a pandemic happens, which brought our industry to its knees. So again, pulling on that same tool, what's the number one thing we needed to do? [00:15:11] How do we keep our restaurants afloat? So at the other end of this pandemic, there are restaurants that we can serve on our platform. And with that, We met the chief medical officer of American Express, figured out that we have a chief medical officer in American Express, and looked at ways that we could create COVID safe dining behaviors. [00:15:28] And that led to sponsorship of outdoor experiences across 45 restaurants within the state. So again, just, I think, really listening and being obsessed with the customer. It has paid dividends. And [00:15:45] Damian: up, that's a tremendous legacy. 15 years of small business Saturday, yes, must be satisfying. And then as you think about Resy now and building out that future, do you have, um, do you have Goals that you want to achieve this year five years down the line [00:16:00] And maybe I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. [00:16:03] I'm sure you do [00:16:03] Hannah: Yeah. So this year is actually our 10 year anniversary at Resy. and it's amazing to see you to the point of all the growth that you cited at the beginning of the taping. Like what? What we've had in that short period of time, and I think for us, it's really been because we've been that co conspirator and partner to the industry. [00:16:22] So for us, The next sort of chapter of Resy is really going to be harnessing that even more, which is when you are a restaurant and you're trying to think of how you can grow your business, how you're trying to get your story out there. Who are you turning to? I want you to be thinking about Resy. [00:16:37] And I don't want you to be thinking about Resy just from the sake of a table management platform or a demand network. I want you to be thinking about us as a critical partner in helping you scale, grow your demand, tell that story of a cuisine type, build an experience that only we could be able to partner with. [00:16:55] And then from a guest side, when you have a dining occasion, I want [00:17:00] you to come to Resy, yes, of course, to think about that. But. But I also want to be the destination to help curate and really be the trendsetter that anytime you're trying to figure out what is happening in my city, a city that I'm traveling to in the broader food industry at large, what does that mean? [00:17:16] And I think a great example of how that is sort of coming to life now is, as part of American Express's relationship with Disney, they actually approached us to think about how we could do a deeper integration for the season three premiere of the bear. Why the bear? All about food. You have people at home now saying corner when they're cooking in their kitchen, and I didn't know what that meant prior to watching that show. [00:17:40] They came to American Express because of our ownership of Resy and what we mean to that industry. So we actually hosted a private screening for American Express card members for the first, and we're also doing episodes one and two of season three at Kusama, one of our L. A restaurants. and that's really because these brands are [00:18:00] looking to figure out how do we authentically play in food and they're thinking Resy. [00:18:03] So how do we continue to evolve on that? What does that mean? How are we meeting our customers? The industry where it needs to be and really being seen as that sort of foothold. Wow. [00:18:15] Damian: that's amazing. That's the bear the hulu connection. That's fantastic [00:18:20] Ilyse:  [00:18:20] Damian: I read Anthony Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential many years ago, but it seems like, people's interest in food and cuisine is hotter than ever. If I may say, what's your take on  [00:18:33] Hannah: Couldn't agree more. and I think that if anything positive coming out of COVID 19 was that it taught us all and showed us all the importance of restaurants and what they mean to us. [00:18:43] So I think coming out of COVID, the number one thing that we heard and we've seen, and even as, as personally, I felt is, Wanting to go out and congregate and to be with people that I love friends, coworkers, family and restaurants are the gathering place for that. [00:19:00] And when that was taken away, I think that was really indicative of what this culture is missing and the role that restaurants can play in that. [00:19:07] And what you've seen is, I think, a genuine interest from the average consumer or diner who is just wanting to understand, What the importance of those restaurants are is like how they operate how we can keep them in business Get that peek behind the curtain. You're seeing shows like the bear emerge and  [00:19:27] I think, really indicates that reservations are a form of cultural currency, which is something that we talk about, inside Terezi. So our job is to really harness that, that sort of cultural zeitgeist moment and really use that as a way to help prop up more restaurants, keep them in business, and drive more demand. [00:19:45] Hannah: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:19:47] Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:19:50] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns. [00:19:56] Damian: And remember, I'm Damian. [00:19:58] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:19:59] Damian: [00:20:00] And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Colgate-Palmolive’s Brigitte King breaks down steering a global giant through digital transformation. She explores the value of connected TV and its data-driven addressability, why she thinks the marketing funnel looks more like a seesaw and how she’s thinking about riding the retail media wave. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse Liffreing. [00:00:01] And I'm Damian Fowler. [00:00:06] Damian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. This week we're delighted to talk with Brigitte King, the Global Chief Digital Officer at Colgate [00:00:11] Ilyse: Brigitte King, the Global Chief Digital Officer of Colgate. [00:00:22] Damian: Of course, these days Colgate Palmolive is a thriving global company with an extensive portfolio of products and billions of customers worldwide. We [00:00:30] Ilyse: of customers worldwide. [00:00:33] Brigitte: global remit in a world awash with data. So Brigitte, [00:00:36] Damian: So Brigitte, let's start. Um, what are the main challenges and opportunities for CPG brands, right now in a world where the shelf is digital and it's extremely competitive? [00:00:46] Brigitte: first, thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. And I did love that, 1800s, date you threw in there. [00:00:52] Um, just for context, you know, we are, a company with a lot of legacy brands and a lot of longevity, and that's actually something great for [00:01:00] the company. but we've got dynamic change ahead of us. And what's fantastic is the company recognizes that. So they've embarked on a digital transformation, a data and analytics transformation, the kinds of things that we need to do to really modernize our brands in a digital first world. [00:01:17] So we do have challenges, like you said. I think that CPG brands have been, somewhat late to the party in terms of really, Getting to the digital and data transformations that we need to do. But by no means are they shy about it. I think everybody has embarked on that change management journey. And the great thing about Colgate is we started it, you know, many years ago and certainly with a lot of speed the last four years. [00:01:42] And the challenges are around modernizing how we reach consumers. the challenges are around making sure we care about the digital shelf as much as the physical shelf. And we sell toothpaste in cartons and tubes and it's on the shelf. But it's been pretty incredible, certainly post, the pandemic, [00:02:00] how quickly we had to master selling online. [00:02:03] And it is a very different skill. It's a very different capability. It requires content. It requires, mastery of the algorithm. It requires working with your retailers in many new and different ways. But I'm really proud to say that, with 15 percent econ penetration of our total sales, we're getting the job done. [00:02:20] Damian: So could you say a little bit more about the opportunity of digital transformation? What does it mean? [00:02:25] Brigitte: Sure. For us, what it means is, is strategically making sure that we can start outperforming in digital commerce. And that means whether it's last mile delivery, or whether it's with our e retailers, or whether it's with our D to C businesses, which we have skin care brands and our skin health division, PCA Skin, L to MD, Philorga, those are all online direct to consumer businesses. [00:02:51] So digital commerce runs the gamut, is my point. And strategically, it means we want to learn to do better. And I'll perform category and [00:03:00] market growth in that arena. The second big pillar of digital transformation is really making a step change in the way we plan, deploy, and use our digital media. So we are a business, as you said, grounded in many years of legacy, that has often been TV first and TV heavy, and that's no longer the case. [00:03:21] Colgate Palmolive globally is weighted over 65 percent in digital media at this point in time. So we have had to do a lot to upskill. Our teams and really make sure that our digital media is working every single dollar as best as we can. I'm very proud for the teams on the ground to say that the R. Y. S. [00:03:41] Have been very positive. And so that means we're really mastering how we do business in digital today. We want [00:03:46] Damian: We want to ask you a little bit about that upskilling later on in the podcast. But I wanted to have a quick question, you know, I'm talking about legacy brands. And I know that, just for instance, one of the toothpaste brands, Colgate's toothpaste [00:03:58] Brigitte: Yes. [00:03:59] Damian: it's about the most [00:04:00] famous toothpaste brand. [00:04:02] You get, how does better marketing or digital marketing even drive brand loyalty for say, those toothpaste customers? Aren't they already loyal? [00:04:11] Brigitte: Not all of them, right? So we have, of course, loyal Colgate users. We also have people who switch. and we have people to grow your brand that have to actually come in to the brand and to the category. [00:04:22] So if you think about, let's get pragmatic. You think about One of the, um, what we call need states of toothpaste is what do a lot of people want? Whiter teeth, right? So, they're looking for whitening products, whiter toothpaste that whiten. And what you see in search terms, is a lot around where the discovery journey begins. [00:04:43] And so you also can understand how they're searching. Well then, the job of a marketer today is not to only understand those trends and those keywords, but to develop the content. that is relevant to those search, behaviors that are going on. And then guess what? You have to then deploy the content [00:05:00] on all the right channels and in the right touch points to be present when the consumer is searching for information and researching about whitening, but then more importantly, how do you get into their consideration set, right? [00:05:12] Into the mental availability of, I'm interested, oh Colgate has something, let me go a little deeper here. And then the moment of truth online, right? Which is the moment of conversion. And I don't mind if they convert, and none of us do, right? On a physical shelf or a digital shelf. The point is to get their attention and to get into the consideration set. [00:05:33] to prove that you have great ratings and reviews, great product benefits that they're seeing on the PDP product detail pages, and you will move them to the point of conversion, be it physical or virtual. [00:05:44] Damian: I like that. [00:05:46] Brigitte: Yeah. Now, as [00:05:47] Ilyse: know, retail media is absolutely exploding and along with that retail data. How is retail data and the opportunity of RMNs helping you with more precise targeting of potential customers? So this [00:05:59] Brigitte: [00:06:00] So this is, you know, the, what I call the topic du jour, right? Retail media, networks and what's happening with the explosion of retail media. I'm very, pleased to say we're actually ahead of this curve. we are investing in retail media. [00:06:11] We are experimenting, with retail partners and it's an incredibly dynamic area. But you know, what's fascinating about it is it gives you closed loops. Sales, right? You can really go from attention to consideration to discovery, and you can basically close the loop and see, did what you do actually impact the bottom line or that final moment of truth? [00:06:34] So that's exciting. But I do want to say that even with the explosion of retail media, we are brand building for the long term, which means we have to think about how retail media works and plays in the larger holistic media planning process. So you really need to think about how you're growing your brand long term and not just on one person's retail media network. [00:06:56] Damian: That's interesting. [00:06:57] Ilyse: To what extent would you say it's like a [00:07:00] game changer for CPTs? I think it [00:07:02] Brigitte: I think it is. I think that it's got all this buzz for a reason, right? And I think it's because we can start to see closed loop sales attribution in ways that are much more difficult to track elsewhere. and you can really partner with retailers who are getting more and more sophisticated about their data sets and how they partner with brands and manufacturers to build businesses. [00:07:25] So in many ways, it can absolutely be a win win situation. but you also have to think about your brand long term and make sure you're not only looking to invest in one place or with one retailer. So we're learning a lot. We've got great partnerships with our retailers. They're leaning in. We're leaning in. [00:07:42] So it's an exciting time. [00:07:44] Ilyse: Is it helping to drive more, say, direct to consumer campaigns? And does Colgate Palmolive have any of those coming up or any successful ones under their belts as it is? [00:07:56] Brigitte: I think we've definitely, we're still in that experimenting stage. We're definitely [00:08:00] learning. but yeah, we have a strategic eye towards how we're going to do this and how we're going to make sure that we get to really drive traffic to our brands. and make sure that also our data gets smarter and more enriched as we go. [00:08:12] The whole point is to basically. Do for the consumer, meet their needs and meet them where they are and do what they need. And as you partner with your retailers, if you're both with that mindset, you generally make smarter decisions with your data. You mentioned, [00:08:25] Damian: you mentioned, you know, meeting the consumer where they are and also about the different nuances of brand building across all the different touch points.  [00:08:34] I know that e commerce is growing. There's a lot of talk about the importance of, commerce advertising, e commerce strategy, and how that engages the consumer. But that also impacts how creative rolls out in the end stage. is that something that's part of your consideration under your remit as a, as somebody who's transforming digital marketing for Colgate. [00:09:14] Brigitte: And the most fascinating thing about content today is it's truly being what I call atomized. You just need more of it faster all the time. You need to create it with velocity. and I always talk about the three V's volume, velocity and variety of content. You need that. So our team equally is trying to make sure we have the technology underpinnings and the infrastructure, to get content deployed at scale. [00:09:39] So that means using dams, digital asset management systems really well across our global organization. And that means, 200 countries and territories. It's no small project. And then really working on making sure it's content that is good. So first it's having it and deploying it correctly. [00:09:59] Then it's [00:10:00] making sure it's good content and good creative. So partners of ours that are really helping us score creative with AI and ML. So we really do know that it's tagged correctly, but that it's actually scored to win, and it's AB tested. [00:10:14] So all of those things are creating a sophistication now in our creative and content wheelhouse that allow us to get where we want to go. What you said, which sounds so easy. Content in the right place at the right time. Yeah, [00:10:25] Damian: how are you adapting your approaches across all these channels that you're talking about across, including the physical store? [00:10:33] Brigitte: So I think it's less about adapting. I think what we're doing is we're retrenching. We are making sure that we understand what is driving these categories. for consumers to begin with. So that means really good consumer decision journeys, studying those, making sure we have a very thorough grasp of the insights and the people centricity around those insights about why people are coming in, why people [00:11:00] are leaving, what they're looking for when they're there. [00:11:02] So if you think about it, you're retrenching into what I call good old fashioned consumer insights. And you're, but you're doing it in a new, way. You're doing quant data, qual data, you're doing digital data, you're doing social sentiment, you're getting an understanding of what's really happening. [00:11:17] And then you're looking to understand what your brand objectives are, or you're responsible for basically strategizing around those to meet the needs of the business. And then you plan your multi touchpoint channel strategy. So there's a lot of work. Diagnostic work that goes on before you ever get into which channel do you want to be on? [00:11:39] what are you trying to get done? it has to be thoughtful because as you know, there's never enough money to go around. and we need to make sure that every dollar we spend to build our brands now to meet both short term goals and long term goals is put in the right place with thoroughness and analytical skills and capabilities and insights. [00:12:00] Ilyse: Now, of ecommerce and retail data, we hear a lot of talk about the collapse of the marketing funnel, that merging, you know, of brand awareness and performance. [00:12:13] Do you have any good metaphors or perhaps models for the way marketing works or should work today? What was the good one that we've heard before, Damian? [00:12:23] Damian: infinity [00:12:24] Brigitte: Yes, the loop. I was going to talk about the loop and not the [00:12:28] Damian: Oh, I don't want to, you know, pre think. You say what comes to mind, what works for [00:12:33] Ilyse: I mean, we've heard, yeah, infinity loop or like black hole even. [00:12:39] Brigitte: So look, I, was trained as a classic brand marketer, and I've worked on digital, for most of the second half of my career, shall I say? So I'm very conscious of, there is a lot to say about the funnel and that it is true, right? The funnel exists for a reason. and it was. [00:12:57] Classified that way because [00:13:00] you have to start from a place of awareness to get to consideration of your brand, to get to purchase, and then to ideally get to loyalty, right? We call that ACPL at Colgate. But I think what's really unique now is you can't just care about awareness. You have to care about getting attention. [00:13:16] And you can't just care about being considered. You have to be in the consideration set. with a lot of different things that affect it now than before. Before it was manufacture a message out. Now, people are reading ratings and reviews. So, as I said earlier on whitening, if they don't read positive ratings and reviews on whitening, I'm going to fall out of the consideration set. [00:13:39] And purchase, used to be fundamentally, the zero moment of truth was at the physical shelf in the store. That's no longer just the case. So the moment of truth can happen anywhere, and on any platform. And, right, it's not just e comm. It's also checking out on, TikTok, and being able to [00:14:00] purchase on social channels. [00:14:02] And that has also changed the mix because a brand now has to exponentially be better and present in all of those places.  [00:14:09] but you raised a really good question around how do you think about brand and performance. And I think that they're very different and we, I've seen a lot of studies and I've read a lot about People talking about let's go back to just the basics of brand marketing. [00:14:24] and then there's a lot of people who are just diehards on performance marketing is where it's at, right? It's data driven, it's got KPIs, you can see things working in real time. I think you need a blend of both. I think that what you really have to be doing today, whether you're driving a digital transformation, marketing or a business transformation in general, you need to be balancing all the time. [00:14:46] And for me, it is striking the balance, I think about a seesaw. Really between brand on one side, performance, brand marketing on one side, performance marketing on the other, and instead of one tipping too far, [00:15:00] balancing the two. I think that's how you get to both short and long term brand building. [00:15:04] Damian: perfect. I love that. That's a new one. [00:15:06] Ilyse: Yeah, that's a good one. That's [00:15:06] Brigitte: right, it's not a loop, it's a seesaw. [00:15:10] Ilyse: now, speaking of like the marketing mix, to what extent are digital channels like connected TV and, of course, ad tiers on streaming platforms important to that marketing mix? I know even with like retail now and retail media, it's, as far as, identity and everything, retail and CTV are kind of merging together as well. [00:15:36] as channels that are almost uniquely suited for each other, in a sense, but curious what you have to say about that. Look, [00:15:44] Brigitte: I think media has changed so much and everyone is trying to keep up and make sure that we understand what I call where the eyeballs are going. And I think that CTV specifically is, as you know, um, Growing exponentially. A lot of investment going in that [00:16:00] area. And we are as well experimenting there, and we have a lot of brands who have invested in connected TV because it's more data driven. [00:16:09] It's addressable, it's targeted, and we can see how it performs. And generally, again, we measure our ROIs against all of our touch points and we have found it is very performant. So we will continue to invest there. It's bringing new people into our brands, Hills specifically, pet food for Colgate. We do a lot of CTV and it's, performing really well for them. [00:16:33] So we're really learning how to do what I would call data driven decision making, data driven targeting. and get the measurement that proves that cycles really working for us, and it's been terrific. I mean, Colgate as one of the classic CPGs. That's hundreds of years old. actually recently posted, 9. [00:16:52] 8 percent organic sales growth. So we really are driving the base business with a lot of these new strategies. [00:16:58] Damian: And from your point of view, [00:17:00] I'm assuming that measurement portion is better. Is just the accuracy of the measurement is getting better. The data signals are getting better. Yes, absolutely. But it's also giving [00:17:11] Brigitte: everyone a whole lot more data to have to handle, hygienate, stitch together and master. And that's the complexity in a lot of this as well. And these transformations always have what I call a lot of data exhaust, a lot of data spinoff, and you have to be equipped in your organization to start mastering and managing that kind of data. [00:17:33] Ilyse: What kind of data? Like, where does it go? it sounds like trash you just like have to take out.  [00:17:42] Brigitte: So, we are, definitely looking to make sure that we put our data in a data cloud. we are looking at consumer data platforms, CDPs, because we do understand that's a place where we can stitch data together to give us a better view of the consumer. [00:17:56] We're strategizing around, unknown and [00:18:00] known data sets. first party, second party, third party data. So all of those things are coming together, strategically for us to be able to drive data driven marketing. [00:18:14] Damian: upskilling your employees. And this comes at a time when there's a ton of emphasis on AI, you know, as a friend or a foe. So, why is that important to you to place that emphasis on the people who work, in the company? Why is digital upskilling such an important, job, I guess, for you? [00:18:33] Brigitte: So it's the beginning of the whole conversation. there is a need to make sure that all of our employees around the world have access to continuous improvement and upskilling and learning. And so as we drove a digital transformation, we needed to bring everybody along with the journey. But nobody can come along if they don't understand some of the basics and the principles, not just the why of what we're doing, but the what it means. [00:18:58] So Colgate Palmolive [00:19:00] invested a lot of time and money into upscaling its own employees. And then we did, fun stuff. We badged people who took X amount of courses. we allowed them to post that on LinkedIn, because they should be proud of upscaling themselves. And it's really good for their careers and their own self development. [00:19:17] But it's also a dynamic for creating change, right? Because as you learn more, you can actually make different decisions Transcribed Act differently. Ask the right questions. Push your teams to make sure we are competing and marketing in a digital age effectively for our brands. So upskilling was everything for us. [00:19:35] and it's really also about Colgate's belief that we should invest back in our employees. this is about raising all boats. So as I also drove a digital transformation, I recruited a lot of talent into Colgate Palmolive, but equally important to all of us was upskilling the teams that we had. [00:19:52] It's reassuring to hear at a time [00:19:54] Damian: a time when, you know, there's all this chat about AI, but it's nice to hear. [00:19:57] Damian: And [00:20:00] that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:20:04] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Cat Fessy and Sydney Cairns. [00:20:11] Damian:  And remember, I'm Damian. [00:20:13] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:20:14] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Josef Najm, director of programmatic and partnerships at Thomson Reuters, and Mibbie Plouvier, head of global programmatic strategy at SAS, join The Current Podcast to describe how their partnership has evolved and how trust plays an important part in that evolution.  Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. [00:00:00] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse Liffreing, and welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. This week, we're excited to be joined by two guests. Joseph Najim, Director of Programmatic and Partnerships at Reuters, And Mivi Plouvier, Head of Programmatic at software company SAS. [00:00:17] Ilyse: Together we'll explore the publisher and advertiser dynamic at a time when some advertisers remain cautious about appearing alongside certain types of news. The business model for news is under pressure and publishers are looking for better ways to monetize their journalism with effective ads. We'll dive into why things may be changing for the better. [00:00:36] Recent research indicates that it's safer for brands to advertise next to quality journalism, regardless of the news topic. Reuters, in 1851 and owned by Thomson Reuters, is one of the world's largest publishers, with journalists in over 200 locations writing in 16 different languages. SAS sits at the intersection of data [00:01:00] and AI. [00:01:01] Delivering analytical insights to brands. We kick off things with Joseph and Miby describing how they first met and how their partnership has evolved since then. [00:01:11] Ilyse: It's so great to have you here today. First off, how did you first meet and how would you describe how your partnership has evolved?  [00:01:20] Joseph: Great. Thank you so much for having us. It's a pleasure to be here. maybe and I met about five years ago when I joined Reuters coming from the buy side, I was just leaving a stint at Diageo and, coming in as the programmatic sales specialist at the time, maybe was working in Paris and she was, I believe, the global programmatic lead and everyone was just like, “Hey, programmatic guy, this is a programmatic person.” [00:01:41] I think you should connect with them. And at the time, we were doing some business with SAS, or maybe a little bit. And hearing that she was from Paris. and also knowing that I had worked at L'Oreal. I wanted to connect with her from like a French connection perspective and also knowing that she was American. [00:01:55] So I shot her an email reaching out and asking her some questions like how things were going.  [00:02:00] Mibbie: It was a fun connection. because I was new to Paris. And Joseph reached out and was telling me all these fun, French antidotes of how Parisians and French people are more like coconuts, and Americans are more like peaches. And it was a great analogy to start the intro, but we've had a great relationship [00:02:17] Joseph has been resilient and calling on our business and the more in trust we built up, the greater the partnership has become and we've been able to do some really great things together.  [00:02:27] Ilyse: guess it is like a pretty small world programmatic,  [00:02:33] Ilyse: so it's no secret that the publishing industry is under quite a lot of pressure along with the eventual death of cookies. One issue publishers continue to come across are brands avoiding advertising on news for concerns around brand safety. [00:02:49] Now, these concerns have been challenged as of a May study from Stagwell that found that even ads next to hot button topics performed as effectively as those appearing next to [00:03:00] news, like sports and entertainment. Can you give us some context around what you're seeing on this topic?  [00:03:07] Joseph: Yes, this is a very important topic, and being at Reuters now for five years, I've had the opportunity to see a lot of different brand briefs and questions that come in around [00:03:17] how can we partner together? And in 2020, this kind of all came to a head when COVID and the pandemic took place. So what we found was, a lot of advertisers turn to the solutions that they have around. Advertising, ad tech platform, blocking tools like keyword lists, pre bid filters, monitoring tags, blocking tags, blocking words like COVID, China, Wuhan. [00:03:38] And then it just precipitated after that. and almost The spiral effect because the news cycle and [00:03:42] the realities of that was happening continued. So, just in the year of 2020, so much happened. whether it was George Floyd's murder, the beginning of the Black Lives Matter. movement. the, the election, as well. A lot of people forget the election took place there, too. And now, four years later, history is continuing in this really [00:04:00] real time. Just to kind of put it into a global perspective, two thirds of the world's democratic populations are going to the polls. this year, not just the U S and a lot of people just think it's the U S, but really important countries like Taiwan, for example. and we're covering that. and we're also covering two global world conflicts. Israel and Gaza, as well as Russia and Ukraine. [00:04:18] when we're doing all this, it costs a lot of money and it's important to find brand partners that are willing, to support trusted journalism and at the same time understand that when they're partnering with news publishers, that audience that they're reaching is a really important audience, It's an attentive audience, an audience that's willing to engage. [00:04:37] I always like to think back, like, when the pandemic happened, where did we all turn? We turned to the news. And I'm really appreciative of a lot of these studies that are coming out with Stagwell, for example, but even going back to 2020, released this Trust HALO report, 84 percent of consumers had a positive or neutral impact when they saw an ad adjacent to a trusted source. And I fast forward to now and folks are talking about Gen z audience and trying to reach [00:05:00] that audience. Gen Z cares about the facts. They care about trust. So, finding partnership with SAS and being able to present this audience and showing that you can have ad adjacency next to the hard news and reach that audience has been leading to successful business outcomes for both of us. [00:05:14] And It's really been great partnering with Mibbie on those activations. [00:05:18] Mibbie: and then from our perspective, I'd say I think it's easy to find comfort in blocking certain words. but. What we like to do is partner with trusted news sources and award winning news sources because we know that no matter what news they're reporting upon, our brand is going to be safe around it. And we know that we're [00:05:35] going to be okay, no matter what the news is. And I think with the current news cycle and how constant it is, you could almost just go down a rabbit hole of blocking everything. So from our perspective, it was let's partner with key publishers, that we can trust and then we don't have to worry as much about trying to continue to block things or worry about. Being somewhere we don't want to be.  [00:05:55] Ilyse: and on that point though, even like the bad news, [00:05:59] I don't think it, [00:06:00] it doesn't hurt your brand as research has shown. and brands are still very fearful about that. Was that your original, like, hesitancy in advertising or? It Okay.  [00:06:12] Mibbie: it's, we take the security and knowing how, brands how we're going to be around the right kind of content and Reuters reports on the news in a very fair way. So for us, even if it's bad news, we're okay with being there. [00:06:26] it took a while to get there internally, but that was several years ago and I think it was around COVID when everybody was a little fearful of the news, but we're very confident with the partners we have. and for us, it was also how can we make these things happen programmatically. Because [00:06:43] we can buy things a lot easier. and more smoothly if it's through our platforms. So that was, Reuters was very good about helping us out in that sense too. Yeah,  [00:06:51] Joseph: I think, it goes back to the consultative approach. [00:06:53] when I first presented to SAS and to maybe, in team. It was always with the thinking of, okay, [00:07:00] culture. Just like Reuters. We have a history. They have a history of innovation too. And at the end of the day, as maybe said, the fairness of how we go to report that unbiased nature, it really creates, and fosters an environment for  [00:07:12] Trust with the audience, trust with the content. So when they have a trusted message, that they're really trying to deliver to that audience. we just knew that it was going to be a perfect synergy between the two. so I really never had. concerns, but I will say, and this is the importance of kind of stepping in and having that partnership with that publisher partner, that news publisher partner. [00:07:30] If the situation gets a little bit out of control, from a hard news perspective, it's important for the news publisher to step in and say, hey, maybe we don't run this campaign right now, but we will come back and we'll make sure that the creative message is appropriate to what's taking place, but also at the same time, hey, we're going to, we're going to protect your brand. [00:07:47] And I think in some cases, we're you know, it happened, for example, with Applebee's, running against the CNN, ad when, I think it was Russia and ukraine, combat was starting to happen. [00:07:57] And, what came from it was some rhetoric [00:08:00] around, you know, we don't want to be around that content. and why, could that have been shut off? And I don't know the full schema behind it, but I really do think it wasn't the intention for CNN to run an Applebee's ads there. [00:08:11] But that ad and went to supporting journalism and supporting that, that moment in time that if people a lot of people were looking at,  [00:08:16] And my hope is, like, a brand like Apple Lee's, we'll find a way to come back to running on news again and not say, Hey, we're gonna shut it down and continue not running there.  [00:08:25] Ilyse: saying, hey, we're to shut it down and continue. Yeah, I do think  [00:08:47] Joseph: Yeah, so I do think there's a little bit of foundation of a fear strategy here, and I think that strategy unfortunately comes from, the fear of the screenshot, [00:08:57] for example, and what that might lead to. [00:09:00] and, when it comes to exclusion lists, I think one of the funniest things I recently heard was a certain agency had an exclusion list Or their exclusion list, which kind of speaks to a problem in itself, where if you're applying words like people's beliefs, religions, communities, whole countries, et cetera, you really run into a situation where Is that appropriate? [00:09:21] For your media campaigns, and your paid campaigns? to me, understanding that brand, and like doing my research when I go to pitch, it's recognizing what is in your keywords doesn't really reflect what your brand is trying to promote from a communication style as well. but I think maybe he has some specifics if you want to share from your side. [00:09:38] we've been chatting about this a little bit, but they're pretty good. They're relevant to the French culture as well. [00:09:43] Mibbie: well. Yeah, I think it's, lose a lot of context when you block keywords. And at some point, when Notre Dame. you know, was on fire and burning. A lot of people were blocking Paris. [00:09:54] They were blocking fire. and now if you don't go back and revisit those lists and you continue to just have. [00:09:59] these long [00:10:00] lists of blocks, you're missing out on Olympics coverage. With the Olympic torch, with the flame, with even the Paris coverage. So there's a lot that if it's not completely maintained, I think it's a hard kind of road to continue to go down because you, there's a never ending way to go if you keep blocking and blocking. [00:10:17] So I think that's where you should go more, the curvation route. And that's the route we've gone is to. Curate our sites, curate who we're working with, and so then it's not as fearful, and you don't get that email to your CEO, which had happened, and it comes down to you, if you're at the screenshot, and then you have to say, that's a good point. [00:10:33] Why are we here? Why are we running there? [00:10:34] so it, sometimes it says hard lessons that make you rethink how you're blocking things. and the approach you're going to have [00:10:41] Joseph: want to bring up AI here because, in a sense, I feel like potentially it could help eventually with, something like keywords. Maybe with marketers, maybe it's a chance to like, actually use it to run through keywords really fast and see if it's, actually gonna [00:11:00] actually with terms that aren't like several years outdated or something like that. [00:11:05] Ilyse: what do you think?  [00:11:07] Mibbie: I think it's only going to help our business and help speed the process to your point of going through those massive lists and staying active with what's constantly changing like the news. So I only think it's going to benefit us, but I think AI in general across the programmatic landscape is going to be a benefit instead of more of a hindrance that some people might think it might be. [00:11:29] Joseph: Yeah, a AI is unique because there's generative AI and then there's AI. And I think in the programmatic space, we've been playing with AI a lot. like Machine learning, algorithms, the ability to, target the person, right place, right time, right message, [00:11:41] that's all AI. And I think the tools that publishers are now getting, that maybe they weren't always accustomed to having, or the ease of being able to, check things, or recategorize things or work with their product leads to say, Hey, what is happening here in the bid stream? That's going to come out more to make a cleaner path, [00:12:00] and make sure that the buy side is really saying, Okay, let's triage it, maybe. [00:12:03] Let's say, okay, if this is Reuters, and a trusted brand, and good to go. But okay, next word that pops up, Okay, maybe it's related to this, but because Reuters, still okay. I don't think those solutions exist. [00:12:14] They're A little bit more potential blankets, but with AI you have to understand the risks too. And I think in a gen AI world, working at a news publisher, it's also really important to understand like I sit on the commercial side. [00:12:25] So my uses of AI and generative AI are going to, be different than the editorial team. [00:12:30] And it's important to make sure this is anyone that's on the new side like what is your AI and gen AI policies because you don't want there to be conflict with your editorial team and commercial team. But you do want to promote. innovation at the same time.  [00:12:43] Ilyse: now I want to talk a little bit about the campaign that you actually ran, and that you pushed through all that hesitancy for, and then maybe if you could share some of the results you saw from that.  [00:12:56] Mibbie: so we've been doing a lot of great testing with Reuters, [00:13:00] so the baseball campaign was a great example because we owned all their coverage of the World Series, which was great for us as a brand to know that. We're there all the way through the end, and it was a good series. But then we've also been doing some testing with Reuters with linked in. So they've been contextually making videos for us around a I specifically in our ads are surrounding that, and we've seen, massive increase in our click through rate, exceeding benchmarks, great view through completion. So it's partnering, in very smart ways And being able to test together that I think we've seen. a lot of great success. and we're also running on their YouTube. channel. So another great way to keep our ads in a brand safe environment on Reuters YouTube instead of all over the place how YouTube can be. So that was a new strategy that we tested together as well. [00:13:45] And we also had audio with Alexa and Google Home. So, when you ask Google Home what the news is for the day. our ad would run before that. And that was a great, Great way of just getting our brand out there and getting some more awareness of who we are. And The great point of that too is [00:14:00] we were able to buy that programmatically. So a lot of these things that necessarily some publishers wouldn't let us buy programmatically. we were able to run with Reuters programmatically, so that made things a lot more smoother. [00:14:10] Joseph: Because of Miby's ad tech stack, we have the ability to front the costs via the impression delivery and the cost per day for an activation. And then, as a publisher, behind The scenes, you just have to work. through your finance team to how you're going to fund those projects and support the teams. But The LinkedIn Wire program. It's a really great success story of how you can combine really great content from a news publisher, and this is all editorial content. So nothing was created bespoke It was just around the same coverage that our editorial teams would be doing for AI. The message that maybe was trying to deliver and SAS team was trying to deliver plus the LinkedIn data that was tied to it as well And All of those things, and I think this also comes into Challenging your partner is It came to a pretty high CPM and costs, but It's the old adage, of kind of, what you get what you pay for And I think the return and what they [00:15:00] saw in the engagement And how it compared was really great. And What I also like about being at a publisher for five years but also having this ad tech background is the way I approach a partner like sass is, hey, we're omni channel. Like you think omni channel and, infinite places, but you could work with one partner in an omni channel approach, and this is very much that and some. So, it's been really great partnering with Vivian sass to really test these different things and be innovative. It's fun.  [00:15:24] Ilyse: finally, to both of you, are you optimistic that news publishers are on the right track to fund, oh, Are you optimistic that news publishers are on the right track to fund journalism at this moment? [00:15:42] Joseph: There's a lot That's being done in the right way in the smart way. But it's also [00:15:47] important to, take stock of all the different revenue streams. So, subscriptions is very big. Diversification for news publishers. is very big gamification, right? All these different platforms. whether it be integrating [00:16:00] new, Sports solutions. or Content that's, again, related to lifestyle. But not every news publisher is built And runs their business in the same way. So it's important to recognize even the local hub news publisher who's covering the beat of something that's taking place. They're at risk to their risk of funding. And there's like this slippery slope where when it hits them, those impacts might not be felt when I'm living in New York City or in [00:16:26] other places. But those local communities, So, I think the onus is on this industry of how we can get back out there. And There are definitely ad tech companies are trying to do that and funnel those dollars there. And You see even the promotion of like new technologies with that. Trade Desk and Adfuntus Media, which hopefully will drive those revenues to those smaller news publishers. [00:16:48] But, you know, at the same time, we're challenged. Whether it's ads, coming from brands, but then even certain algorithm changes that are impacting business lines that had seven figure revenue streams. You're seeing it across [00:17:00] the board. So, I think the stress is real. I think The stress is real for a lot of people. But it's important that, you know, we keep innovating and finding brand partners like SAS to come to the table to speak about how we can is good and you can find opportunity in hitting that audience and driving ROI and driving performance. [00:17:17] That will only help. and hopefully it trickles down to the small guys too.  [00:17:23] Ilyse: Joseph, what would you tell marketers who say it's not a brand issue? what would you tell marketers who say it's not a brand safety issue, but more that their audience just isn't there? [00:17:40] That's a lot of, young readers, Gen Z ears are finding their news on TikTok and only TikTok. what would you say to them? I know it like can lion, for instance, a few months ago, McDonald's CMO. for instance, said that,  [00:17:56] get our audience there and we'll bring [00:18:00] back the money. We'll put the money there.  [00:18:03] Joseph: No, it's a great question, and I don't think they're wrong. I do think, however, the communication is not there, and, the insight that the Gen Z audience, whether it be Gen Z adults or younger Gen Z, are getting their information. from TikTok is very accurate. we've done that same report, at the Reuters Institute, which partners with Oxford, released that same study last year, and the new results are going to come out soon, to see how those channels are resonating with younger audiences. [00:18:27] But, I asked a simple question, right? Like when the pandemic happened, where did people go? They went to news sites. They went to understand and get facts and information to inform the decisions that they were making, whether it be a mom who's worried about her children and going to school or the professional and the markets and how it's being affected. [00:18:45] Now, Gen Z, just because they go to TikTok first doesn't mean they stop there. I'm sure they have their trusted sources. And I think the challenge is Hey, brands. [00:18:53] You're only giving me 20 minutes to pitch, and it's very transactional right now when it comes to display ads [00:19:00] and video ads, audio ads, whatever it might be. Where's the opportunity to be consultative? Give us that platform. Let us have that. discourse. because Right now, the discourse that comes up is, we're just like, a no news. I don't think that's the case. If you ask any brand like, no, we support news. So how do we get them from saying, yes, we support news, but to, yes, we support news [00:19:19] and the end is that should be filled in by us. How are we going to do something that's a little bit more innovative more creative to get them back into supporting that platform, But we all have the data to show those audiences are there, do we have the platform, however, to share that insight with them? That's something that needs to be rebuilt a little bit. And I think it's coming. there, though. And I think the events that happened in Cannes and the different studies that came out and rolled out are only going to help. And I really do appreciate that, that feedback. But, sitting as a challenger in that room, it's important to challenge. [00:19:51] Joseph: It's very easy to say no, someone, no to someone who's like a friend. And getting that kind of feedback and going back and forth, that's good. That's where the discourse started. [00:19:59] Ilyse: [00:20:00] Now, when it comes to advertising on news, what is the approach when it comes to a B2B company like SAS versus B2C or even D2C? How is it different?  [00:20:12] Mibbie: I think we just have to look at what we're trying to advertise and get our, awareness out there about, and we're selling a very high end software and for us, that relationship of. premiumness with publishers. and having that there. We're not chasing cheap clicks because we have a very long sales cycle. So when it comes to B2C, that somebody's going to see those shoes and go buy them, it's very different than making a long term decision to purchase the software. [00:20:38] So for us, we want to have that consistency with the brands and longevity more so than being kind of all over the place searching those cheap clicks or cheap impressions. [00:20:47] so We pay a little more just to to get that consistency, consistency to get that frequency, but also, we have to think about sales cycles. And So ours is very long, nine months to a year. So long enough to have a baby. so we really have to have that consistency [00:21:00] right of being in the same place and having that consistent message. [00:21:04] Ilyse: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:21:06] Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:21:09] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns. [00:21:16] Damian: And remember, I'm Damian. [00:21:18] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:21:19] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

United recently launched Kinective Media, the airline industry’s first media network. Its first-party data could change the future of people’s travel experiences.  Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. [00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler and welcome to this edition of the current podcast this week we're delighted to talk with Mike Petrella, the managing director of partnerships at United airlines. In June, the airline launched a new initiative named connective media, which is the airline industry's first media network. [00:00:17] The network will use data from its customer profiles to create a personalized and immersive travel journey. This launch comes at a time when retail media networks have become one of the hottest topics in ad tech, allowing brand marketers to target consumers using retailers first party data. [00:00:35] We start by asking Mike about why United wanted to move in this direction.  [00:00:40] Damian: United's the first travel focused company to develop its own media network called Connective Media by United Airlines, and how is this a boon for the company and its flyers? [00:00:50] Mike: of course, so we consider ourselves a commerce media network, and we distinguish ourselves as a commerce media network. Given retail media, networks are typically point of [00:01:00] purchase, transaction based. The Commerce Media Network embraces the emotion, the journey, the feelings of all parts of the funnel. [00:01:08] So when you think about our users at time of planning, time of travel, [00:01:13] Damian: and signals [00:01:14] Mike: time of destination, even when they're not thinking about travel, we have 108 million profiles. And the beauty of our data is it's incredibly accurate. You have to be Damien to get on a plane. Your name has to be what it is, your address has to be correct, your phone number, and all the other information. [00:01:33] So the breadth of that information, coupled with the accuracy of it, gives us insights and signals that allow us to create these robust profiles of the user. And it's the user at all points. And the commerce nature of this isn't just a point of sale. We are not microtransactions on a consistent, on a constant basis. [00:01:54] Rather, we think about The interaction of the user at the time of [00:02:00] planning, top funnel. At the time of trip, or even time of purchase in an ancillary mindset. Purchase path typically generates a significant amount of revenue. Be it airline tickets, upgrades, any purchase path. [00:02:11] Regardless of whether it is airline ticket or if you're purchasing a ticket to an event, parking, whatever the case is. So for us, it's the ability to take that journey. To be able to identify when the right time to send the right message to the right user is. And that message could be an advertisement, it could be content, it could be nothing because it's not the right time. [00:02:35] But in each of these cases, you can make a use case for any and every brand based on the scale and depth of our data. [00:02:42] Damian: of our data. Fascinating. And you mentioned that long purchase journey, which is, sometimes it can be a long purchase journey, right? For air travel, or it could be short, but you do have a lot of scope within that context. [00:02:54] Mike: It is. I mean, very few people spontaneously book tickets to destinations, right? [00:02:59] And when [00:03:00] you're in that mindset, you're in a planning mindset, not only of the journey, but think about the insights and intelligence we can extract from the signals we receive to say, Well, this person happens to frequent a specific hotel chain, a car rental chain, a ride share company, when they land, they frequent a food delivery service. [00:03:21] Endemic, but then you think the non endemic piece. And this is the beauty of what we do. The lines of endemic and non endemic are completely blurred. To me at least. Because I think about, when you get on a plane, you may be traveling home to return to normality. Which takes you to food shopping, which takes you to the pharmacy, which takes you to the laundromat. [00:03:39] But my point is, I think the idea of always coupling a travel endemic brand or journey with the traveler is only a piece of it. be it on the road or at home. [00:03:50] I may go see a music event. I may go purchase music. I might play music. I may eat pizza. I will eat pizza just to be clear. But my point is, my behaviors [00:04:00] There are some that are going to be unique based on my journey, and others that are going to overlap with when I'm traveling for leisure, when I'm home. [00:04:08] And so, I love the fact that just, we can essentially meet the interests of the customer, which is the centric piece of this, and provide value to our partners as well. [00:04:21] Damian: It's a very clear example of how non endemic works in a retail media network, I think, because, you know, when you think about other retail media networks, often think about the retailer and what it sells, but, you know, with United, it's a different story. [00:04:34] Mike: Yeah, it's the breath of commerce, and that's what I enjoyed. That was like when I came here, it was eye opening. I had an idea, right? But just to see what we can do and really the validation of just how strong our data is and how valuable it is from a customer standpoint. When I say valuable to the customer, it is to spoon feed customers based on their interests. [00:04:57] Cafeteria style doesn't work. There are too many choices. [00:05:00] So if you're in a planning phase and we can bring about certain things that are of, normality to you, booking a restaurant, booking a golf reservation, simply as getting my ride share, it makes the journey easier. It makes it feel like it's Damien Fowler's journey, not just a customer who purchased a seat in one of our planes. [00:05:20] Damian: Yeah, I love that. And I just want to take that point a little bit further. Can you give some more examples of how, you work with brands, whether endemic or, when I say endemic, that would be travel related, right? Or not. and where that media might appear. [00:05:34] Mike: Sure. So today we are, our media network extends from our dot com, our in app, we have digital signage within the airports, be it in our clubs and lounges, gate information displays, on our planes we have in flight entertainment, or we call IFE, or personal device entertainment on your phone, and so as part of United Next, we made an investment to purchase north of [00:06:00] 800 planes. [00:06:01] And within each of those planes, they will be outfitted with the new IFE system. It's meant to be more of an OTT experience versus the current experience, which quite frankly is, it's legacy, it's the 1950s. It's a small screen with limited choices and it's not what we're used to. we envision this opportunity to have a very personalized experience in which you will have your interests displayed on that screen and every person's screen will be different. [00:06:28] Based on that individual. And so, for us, we will be retrofitting our current fleet, with the exception of a couple planes that will be retired over time. And so, over time, we will have screens in all planes on a, personalized basis. And so, for us too, it's, you extend past that, you have email and such. [00:06:47] It's a true omni channel offering, but most importantly, it's the engagement. We have an average of three and a half hour flight time. And so, when you're at home You can get up, use the restroom, go to the kitchen, whatever, if [00:07:00] a commercial comes on. You cannot do the same in a plane. At the same frequency. I mean, yes, you can get up, but the idea of having the ability to engage in an intimate and targeted manner with our users and to be able to show them things of their interest is huge. [00:07:16] Right? And then you think more, in lounges and clubs, It's not going to be personalized. If Damien walks in, if you walk into the club, you don't want to see. Hello, Damon. How are you? Do you need a new green shirt? That's creepy, right? Yes. So again, there's you can think about. the business traveler travels from Monday at 5 a. [00:07:35] m. to 11 a. m. and Thursdays from 4 to 7. So perhaps we put advertisers endemic to that audience. Families travel on weekends and these are generalities. But through research and through signals, we can begin to capture that. And again, the right message at the right time. [00:07:50] Damian: What customer insights will help connect brands with United Flyers? [00:07:54] Mike: So we capture over 120 targetable segments, or signals, I should say. And that [00:08:00] is, a mix of attitudinal, behavioral, lifestyle, and transactional. And today, our audience indexed to the highly affluent individual. Married, college educated, homeowner, household income of 250, 000 plus. And so you'll see in some of our launch partners, Bottega Veneta, which is a luxury brand, McAllen's, a higher end Scotch. [00:08:21] Very good for that audience, but at the same time, we are very diverse in terms of who is on our plane. We, our launch partner was Televisa Univision. 25 percent of the Chicago population is Hispanic. Is it 63 million, Spanish speaking, Americans in the U. S., right? So the idea of just focusing on one demographic doesn't do anyone justice. [00:08:45] very much. Right? Again, speaks to that scale of data. And so, we, there's a use case for every single brand, every single opportunity. We [00:08:56] Damian: that nuance that you can bring to it, to [00:09:00] advertising, is obviously key to this. what strategies is Connective employ to personalize ads and offer that to these different segments? [00:09:08] We are a very privacy centric, privacy [00:09:10] Mike: privacy safe, conservative approach to what we're doing. We sit atop GAM. we work with, a number of clean rooms. any and everything we do is meant to uphold the integrity of that customer's data. we will never sell the data as a stand alone. It'll always be wrapped with media on a managed basis. [00:09:31] And I say that because the sale of data opens up opportunity for bad actors. Then there are bad actors out there. So when it comes down to it You know, we want to ensure that we are keeping our customers, information, and privacy at the forefront. And then, any and everything we do is in a compliant way. [00:09:51] Data collaborations through clean rooms, proper encryption at all specific times, proper measurement and verification. it's a textbook [00:10:00] approach, knowing full well that,  [00:10:04] Mike: party data is currency, you have to protect it, and you have to use it in the right manner. [00:10:09] Damian: And it feels great, right? The work that we did is meaningful. [00:10:20] Mike: It's been overwhelming, honestly. I used to work, I helped startup advertising. com a long time ago, and all its brand names up through Yahoo. And I was always the one vying for a brand's business. To work on a brand site now has been an eye opening experience because you have the problem of choice. And the reception to what we've been doing has been incredibly positive. [00:10:44] and it feels great, right? The work that we did is meaningful. The work that we did is interesting. but we have to be smart in terms of who we work with. I would say the outreach from partners, we always want to maintain a very premium nature for any owned [00:11:00] and operated supply. I think it's important. [00:11:02] Again, the brand integrity for United is paramount. but at the same time, as I said earlier, there's a use case for all brands. And we're always open to exploration and conversations. And then making the right choice based on United brand, based on the value for our customers and for the overall business. [00:11:21] Damian: Now travel has skyrocketed since pandemic times, and that's been well reported. Can you describe the change United has seen more generally in people coming back to the skies? [00:11:32] Mike: the largest airline in the U. S. right now. and it's, it's a great position to be in because people fly United for the experience. [00:11:39] We do not compete with low cost carriers. That's not our model. People fly for the convenience, for the experience, for the opportunity to increase their loyalty status, for the journey in itself. Our app is the number one rated app in the, in, of all airlines, and if you, you know, I'm not sure if you're a flyer or not, Thank you. [00:11:58] If you are [00:12:00] so you see that app is very intuitive in terms of my baggage goes here. My gate is here. And so against personalization, right? It may not be specific. Damien. This is your journey. Rather, you are flying at this airport. Here is where your luggage is. Here's where your gate is. And it's just it's taking those steps to just again lessen the hassle of travel. [00:12:19] And then, as you get on the plane, our flight attendants, our ground crew, our pilots are just top caliber. it's the friendliness that you see. again, the experience extends beyond [00:12:29] Damian: a traveler's standpoint. [00:12:30] Mike: Connected media provides an opportunity for us to gather what we have from our three core pillars. Travel, loyalty, and media. [00:12:39] And it's that flywheel. we are able to ingest signals based on the profiles that we have. And in doing so, you begin to see the traveler profile as it begins to matriculate to an actual loyalty partner. [00:12:52] 39 million mileage plus loyalty partners. We have a co brand card through Chase. Right. We have our mileage plus [00:13:00] partnerships team, and we think about that from the Avis's, the Marriott's, from a travel endemic standpoint, non endemic, even like the away, I guess away luggage is not therabody, things to that effect. [00:13:10] And so, the ability to accrue and redeem miles as transaction. And then, with the credit card, the ability to redeem miles, or accrue miles, I should say, through transactions. As you go through the flywheel, you come to the media piece, which is the connective tissue. To understanding the middle and lower funnel of that transaction, purchase point, brand affinity, options for our users. [00:13:33] And then back to the first part, the emotion, and the journey, and the actual travel. And as we do this flywheel, we have more travelers, which means more signals, which means more opportunities for media, which means more, and it's a self fulfilling flywheel that essentially, again, with the customer in the middle, or the customer is the focus, it's Creates that opportunity to your point of why people are flying more with United.[00:14:00]  [00:14:00] Damian: What kind of feedback have you had from those customers? what are people's experience, what are people experiencing and how are they setting that back to you? [00:14:08] Mike: think the best part is, they've come up and said I'm so excited you're doing this. Never would have thought of this. like you, you're hearing it from the horse's mouth, right? So there's, in an unbiased manner, what I'm most proud of is the fact that we've come out with a legitimate business with a very, very focused North Star, that is focused solely around the customer. [00:14:31] that's unique. And to bring it to market at the speed that we did. With the help that we had from partners and the support that we've had from the industry has been just, has been amazing. Now the [00:14:43] Damian: the idea now seems like a very good one. And you're describing, you're telling me, Mike, how quickly you brought it to market. What, in under a year, really? I mean, it's a good idea. Do you expect that other airlines are going to want to emulate, what you've done here with your media network? [00:14:59] Mike: is [00:15:00] a very savvy airline. They're a great airline. they're doing certain things [00:15:07] with the connect, that we're connecting. streaming from a device to their, seatback screens. They've done partnerships with Walmart Plus and such. Whether they come out with a full scale media network, I'm not sure. but, United and Delta are the top two airlines in the U. S. [00:15:22] And they are a very savvy brand. So, if they come out, I would not be, surprised. I don't know about the others. You know, for me, it's not one's better than the other. It's just where I see the next. In [00:15:35] Damian: In general, while we're on the topic of predictions, when you look ahead to the rest of this year and to next, as you build this offering out, what are the kind of trends you're looking for in terms of that merging of travel and media that you just talked about? The year into next, what trends are you all looking for? [00:16:09] Mike: It's really, when you and I grew up, you had to pay for HBO, you had to pay for ESPN. it's a similar model, and you're seeing consolidation and M& A start in that sector. There's too many choices for consumers. Today, there's 273 retail media networks. That is not scalable, right? Marketers and agencies already have too many choices to make. [00:16:30] and at the same time, the uniqueness of that data, depending on the sectors. It may not be all that unique. I do think there's going to be consolidation. There has to be. And for me, I would expect that. I think we're in a very good position just given the unique position that we're in. And quite frankly, like the three pillars, right? [00:16:53] Scale, accuracy, and omni channel. And we can say we have that with confidence. I would say like, [00:17:00] to your point of expectations, there has to be consolidation. I think the introduction of AI, it wouldn't be a podcast without saying AI. I've already said flywheel, if there's another one I need to say. [00:17:11] But I do think, the introduction of AI into not only the purchase path, but more importantly, the analytics. Right? Humans know which questions to ask. AI will figure out what other questions to ask. And as we constantly feed these models, you're going to have, just from an analytics standpoint, the ability to extract new data, new intelligence, new insights, and we want to be on the forefront there to ensure that, we modernize our offering at a pace that is quicker, than what the industry is seeing. [00:17:44] Damian: Do you anticipate that your media network and what you're offering might have some kind of partnerships with some of those streaming platforms? I'm just thinking. Yeah, it's my job. So, [00:17:54] Mike: So, like, I do. I think there's opportunity for partnership. Yeah. it's the many versus the [00:18:00] power of one. [00:18:00] Damian: Yeah.  [00:18:01] Mike: You have to be selective, right? If you partner with everyone, you partner with no one. So, I think there's opportunities in the travel space. I do think there's opportunities in the non endemic space, too. We're at really early stages, so Honestly, platform side, I'm not used to this much attention. [00:18:21] and I love it. And we brought friends in to build this business. I'm working with my friends. I absolutely love it. And so together we're kind of sitting down and putting our heads together and say, okay, like we got to the starting line. We bust out our asses for nine months and we got to the starting line. How do we run this race and always be the leader? Because there's going to be people coming up after us. And that challenge with one another is great because we're pushing one another to be better. And it's not intense in the sense that like, any conversations with emotion are meant for constructive and collaboration. [00:18:57] And I think we're all being better because we're constantly pushing [00:19:00] one another. But more importantly, we're supporting one another. [00:19:02] Damian: Yeah. you do see some relationships with broadcasters, with in flight entertainment, but I imagine this is going to go. To a different level. [00:19:11] Mike: this is the early stage of the business. This is the exciting part. we're the bright, shiny object right now, and I think it's good to revel in that just to pat yourself on the back and say, Hey, we did it. [00:19:22] But realistically, like complacency doesn't get you anywhere, right? So everyone else has got has gotten to the starting line. There's been 273 other companies that got to the starting line, and some are running the race faster than others, and some are not even on the same course anymore. so for us, I think it's about heads down, and just constantly push. [00:19:42] And to be the best, [00:19:49] Damian: is highly competitive. Do you feel the pressure? [00:19:53] Mike: I don't feel the pressure from the industry. I feel the pressure to deliver. Like, me personally, I hold the bar very [00:20:00] high for myself, and I'm my worst critic. I know what it's like to be successful. I helped launch advertising. com and I can tell you those first five years were by far like the highlight of my life from a professional standpoint. [00:20:11] these last nine months are on par with that. And if I can make the next four years and three months the same or better, I'm going to do everything I can to do it. And if there's 23 years, 18 more years to follow that, great. I hope to retire at some point in my life. But, um, I'm just excited because. [00:20:30] This is real. And it's good. And, will be responsible for our success. So, yeah, I'm really excited about it.  [00:20:37] Damian: thank you so much for these insights. It's been great. [00:20:40] Mike: to speak with you, Damian. Thank you.  [00:20:42] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:20:44] We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:20:47] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns. [00:20:53] Damian: . And remember, I'm Damian. [00:20:55] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:20:56] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please [00:21:00] subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Wayfair Head of Brand Marketing Kara O’Brien joins The Current Podcast to discuss blending the in-store and digital shopping experience. Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian [00:00:00] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse Liffreing [00:00:02] Ilyse: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:00:05] Damian: This week, we're delighted to talk with Kara O'Brien, Head of Brand Marketing and Analytics at Wayfair. [00:00:11] Ilyse: For years, Wayfair has been an online one stop shop for people looking for everything from beds to couches to kitchen appliances. In fact, for those browsing home goods, the choices often seem endless. [00:00:23] Damian: I know, because I've spent many long hours looking for the perfect bathroom cabinet to fit into my tiny New York apartment. But seriously though, one of the big draws for Wayfair has always been its reasonable prices for its products. [00:00:35] Ilyse: Wayfair is famous as an e commerce platform, but now that's changing. In May, the company opened its first brick and mortar store. start by asking Kara about why the company made this move. [00:00:47] Ilyse: First, I believe congratulations are in order because Wayfair opened its first brick and mortar store back in May. [00:00:54] So, why don't you walk us through the decision to make the leap into a physical storefront?[00:01:00]  [00:01:00] Kara: Absolutely We are so excited about this milestone. It's something that's been a long time coming. I personally have been at Wayfair for 10 years, and it has been one of the peak moments of my time there to see our brand come to life physically. so why now? I mean, our ethos has always been to deliver the best possible experience for our customer, and now we want to really be able to do it however they shop and however they choose to shop. [00:01:24] And so to be able to bring the It's a product to the customer. Let them see it in person, help guide them through the purchasing process. It's it makes a ton of sense. And, consumer demand has shifted so much during and since the pandemic, there was, pretty strong move to buying these more considered purchases online when people had no option to go in store. [00:01:46] But, now we're seeing the pendulum swing back and the consumer preference is to have a mix, to have a balance, to be able to see things in person, but have the convenience of being able to shop and research from home.  [00:01:57] Ilyse: Yes, now I know I'm, I have an apartment in New York and i've spent too many hours on Wayfair, probably. [00:02:03] Kara: - love to hear that. [00:02:04] Ilyse: but why did you land on Wilmette, Illinois for this touch point? And how are you bringing the brand to life in store? [00:02:12] Kara: Yeah, to start with Wilmette, I think there's two big considerations that ended up there. one is convenience. And so we really want to make shopping for your home as easy as possible. It's a process. It's something that's so important to so many people. [00:02:25] And so we don't want the process itself to feel onerous. And so for us, we had found this wonderful space. It's in a revitalized shopping center. It's surrounded by suburbs with lots of young families who are really kind of our core customer. And then the access to the broader Chicagoland, uh, area was fantastic. [00:02:45] So that's always been a strong market for us. But more on the business side, it's, It's very well positioned within our logistics network, and to kind of come back to that idea of convenience, we can ship products to, directly to customers home instead of trying to fit something [00:03:00] large and bulky in the back of your trunk. [00:03:02] And so we're able to do that fast, free, easy, when they've seen something in store or if they've explored beyond. [00:03:10] Ilyse: mortars follow or? [00:03:12] Kara: I think that's the idea eventually, but I think one thing we're really trying to do is learn at being an e commerce company. First, there's so much one way conversation that you have with the customer through your marketing, through your site. This is an opportunity to have that two way conversation. [00:03:28] And, we recognize we're new to the space. We're going to learn a ton and hopefully be able to apply that [00:03:34] Ilyse: what  [00:03:34] Damian: to what extent does the physical store help build the brand perception? And I know you sort of touched on that, but what I'm interested in is, it's known as an e commerce platform, and here you are now building out a physical store. [00:03:46] So What does that do? How does that help? [00:03:49] Kara: Yeah, well, I think it's rooted in who we were as an e commerce company, right? We have so many different types of products. We have, tens of millions of products on site. [00:04:00] And so the challenge at hand was really how do you take that vast selection and put it into a box, right? You can only put a finite number of products in. [00:04:08] And so for us, what we were really trying to solve for is how do you at Google Demonstrate that breadth, but still assist people through that purchasing process so that they can find that thing they were looking for, even if they didn't even know they wanted it. And so a lot of our philosophy was we want to be able to give you departments that are specific to a space, but we also wanted to have a through line that We're specific to your style. [00:04:34] So the way you can shop the store, it's not, living room over here, bedroom over here, completely cordoned off. It's more of a choose your own adventure. So if I have multiple projects and I have a modern aesthetic with a little bit of a rustic twist. We have pathways to carry you through. [00:04:49] If you are mission driven and just need a new set of pots and pans, we can get you there quickly too. and so then the other thing that's a component to that, given how much we have, is the [00:05:00] support needed along the way. And so we have our associates trained to help you find the things you want, if you want a different color, we can show you that through our e commerce platform, but then you know that the size is perfect because you saw it in the store. [00:05:12] Damian: So you're connecting the in store experience to the digital experience. [00:05:16] Kara: closely. The technology enablement was so important to us. We wanted to make sure people could understand again that endless aisle, but make it a very shoppable experience in store. we also are going to be launching new services like design services to help customers complete that project with confidence. [00:05:31] and so very much want it to be an interplay. Now, [00:05:40] Ilyse: back in March, which included a full omni channel activation featuring celebrity spokespeople and an updated logo. What were the most successful lovers within this campaign, and are there any surprising insights so far? Yeah, well, we [00:05:54] Kara: Yeah, we were really excited to bring this to market. along with this campaign, we have a revised tagline [00:06:00] of every style, every home. And I think the whole goal in the campaign was to be able to show that, not just say that. And so by bringing in different personalities, some recognizable, some just relatable, we felt like we could showcase that breadth, but in ways that, a consumer looks at the ad, the campaign and says, Oh, I see myself in that. [00:06:17] I know that I can get what I'm looking for. as it comes to the winds, it's still early days, just launching in March. Not a ton of time. But we're seeing really positive response to the casting to the breadth of personalities were showing. It's quite memorable as a result. So we're seeing good spikes in attention metrics. [00:06:35] We know it's resonant, and we know that people are associating it with wayfair. So for us, that own ability was a really important goal in the campaign. [00:06:43] Ilyse: TV spots during the Oscars. Yes. What was the impact of those pretty high profile ads? [00:06:49] Kara: Oh, I think it was really nice as we went on this more of an evolution than a revolution of the brand. It was really nice to be able to showcase that in a big splashy way and have as many people [00:07:00] see it as possible. And then as you've seen and will continue to see over the course of the year, we're really building on that. [00:07:06] So we have a few different spots. They all exist in this world of the waverhood and, that sort of, The sort of universal experiences that people have in their communities are the things we're trying to show in all different ways. Now beyond those [00:07:19] Damian: Now beyond those big TV spots, are there other sort of digital channels that you're exploring? [00:07:24] Kara: lot of this campaign was not just about the what, but the where. And so we've definitely taken an expanded lens to how we show up for our customers, and really trying to make sure we understand where they're spending time. We show up there and then as a result are additive to their experience, too And you know some of the newer spaces were in definitely moving more into streaming video Moving more into audio which we hadn't done before home tends to be quite a visual category So that's been a really exciting experiment for us and then working with all sorts of creators I think that's an emerging area [00:08:00] for us but really important for thinking about home and showcasing style and self expression [00:08:06] Damian: a sort of Specific demographic. You mentioned young homeowners. That's interesting. And that perhaps predetermines which channels you might like to engage people in. [00:08:16] Kara: Absolutely. [00:08:17] we are a mass brand. We do have something for everyone. But at the same time, when you think about who's spending disproportionately on their home, who has more needs, it's definitely the folks who are going through these meaningful life events where their notion of home is changing. And so really the sort of bullseye of that are young families. [00:08:36] you're getting married, you're moving in together, you're trying to merge styles maybe successfully, maybe less successfully, you have parents who are now thinking about safety and designing a nursery all the way through durability as the kids get older. And then, moving on up through to empty nesters. [00:08:53] There's a very different set of needs. So we really want to start with that sort of nucleus of a starter family, a young family, [00:09:00] and grow the relationship from [00:09:01] Damian: That absolutely makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. [00:09:11] Ilyse: an e commerce company? That's [00:09:13] Kara: that's a fantastic question. for us, we're longtime digital marketers. Digital is a very direct path to our site. And so a lot of the challenges when you're, telling a story and you're trying to guide towards that less direct path to get to site, how do you do so? And, help the customer understand what they should expect when they show up. [00:09:31] And so for me, the things that I'm thinking about all the time are storytelling. Really trying to make sure that we are contextually relevant wherever we're showing up, again, something that we're tackling with the new distribution channels. and then really making sure that a company that has been so digitally minded is making that connection. [00:09:50] And so, now under my purview is our on site team. Marketing team and thinking about when you see us in a TV ad, and then you show up on our home page. How do we make that feel like a [00:10:00] continuous journey? so it's definitely been a journey. I think it's an exciting one. Again, as somebody who's been with this brand for a long time, it's really exciting to see us lean more into that storytelling. [00:10:09] Ilyse: So you've been with Wayfair now for over 10 years. In that time frame, How would you categorize and characterize the changes in the media landscape? [00:10:20] Kara: I really think how the consumer expects to discover content has changed dramatically. Where they go, Who they go to, how they think about sharing. It's just, it's changing so rapidly and continues to do so. So for us, as we think about a category that is quite emotive, quite personal. Quite unique to an individual. [00:10:43] We want to make sure that we can show up in a way that helps somebody discover what they're looking for or discover that perfect piece. And so, you know, insofar as the media landscape, it's not just turning to a single celebrity or a single friend. You actually have access to so much. And so, we want to be a [00:11:00] breakthrough voice. [00:11:00] We want to help people parse through that and find that perfect thing, which ends up being then this ultimate combination of content and commerce.  [00:11:09] Ilyse: How does Wayfair go about measuring the impact of the users on its sites?  [00:11:16] Kara: yeah. So I mean, picking up on that thread of bridging the offline and the online, I think what's been, you know, a challenge faced by many brands is that you have to think about that total ecosystem that a customer is interacting with and how you can understand how they're moving through it, what they're seeing, what they're reacting to. [00:11:34] And so for us, we've been on a little bit of a journey to expand how we think about measurement. we've Certainly done a lot of investment in multi touch attribution, especially being more digitally native. we're expanding to think about running different kinds of experiments, understanding, lift on brand metrics over the short term and over the long term. [00:11:54] and then adding to our based model arsenal. what's great about being e commerce [00:12:00] first, though, is we do get a lot of first party data on our customers. We can see how they move around our site. We know where they've come from, largely, and we can start to stitch that story together so that we can serve them better through personalized mediums as well as an aggregate understand, where they're gravitating towards. [00:12:17] Ilyse: What are some of the major KPIs that you try to hit or some of those analytics that you really strive for? [00:12:25] Kara: Yeah, for us, we always just want to build a notion of impact. And I think what's been growing us as marketers is that's not a singular definition. And so it depends on the campaign. It depends on the goal of the test. when we're thinking about offline marketing or brand marketing, we're looking for immediate recall. [00:12:44] We're looking for a lift in certain impression metrics. or, perception metrics, rather, depending on what we're trying to convey through the campaign, all the way through to more of the mid funnel and consideration, where are we driving visits? What share of those are from new customers versus prior customers?[00:13:00]  [00:13:00] And then how are those customers engaging on site? Are they purchasing right away? Did they come in because they saw a specific category or style? All the way through to how many visits does it take before you're comfortable making a large purchase? and so we follow them, you can call it a funnel, though it tends to not be quite so linear as a funnel. [00:13:18] Um, yeah. [00:13:19] Ilyse: in some cases, the funnel has kind of died with like e commerce. Yeah, [00:13:23] Kara: it's much more of, I said the word before, an ecosystem, right? Like things are moving together non linearly and it's about telling that story, that narrative internally and then playing it back to the customer to give them what they're looking for.  [00:13:37] Damian: as we, you know, look to 2025, what are the things that are sort of exciting you in terms of innovation when it comes to marketing? [00:13:44] Yeah, [00:13:48] Kara: and back again, I think we really want to create a total experience for customers, and that'll be through storytelling. That'll be through working with different types of [00:14:00] partners, really thinking about how consumers want to do discovery, and, that's going to be a big focus for us. [00:14:06] I think like many brands, we are exploring the right use cases for AI to power a lot of what we do. There's everything from the, the stuff behind the walls of how do you get more efficient in your processes all the way through, expanding the number of creatives you're able to put out in a given test. [00:14:24] so that's very much an area of investment and innovation for us. and then, you know, as we continue to learn through the store, going back to where we started and understanding how we can just make customers lives easier, you think about expanding that to the entire delivery experience, any type of follow on customer service that's needed. [00:14:44] There's a lot of places where we think we're quite differentiated and we always want to take a technology first approach to it. [00:14:51] Ilyse: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:14:53] Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:14:56] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current [00:15:00] team includes Cat Fessy and Sydney Cairns. And remember,  [00:15:03] I'm Damian. [00:15:04] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:15:05] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Parbinder Dhariwal, VP and GM of CVS Media Exchange, discusses CVS’s self-service advertising offering and the future of DEI initiatives in retail media. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse Liffreing. [00:00:01] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler. [00:00:02] Ilyse: welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:00:04] Damian: This week we're delighted to talk with Parbinder Dhariwal, or Parbs as he's known by friends and colleagues. He's the Vice President and General Manager at CVS Media Exchange. [00:00:14] Ilyse: Launched in 2020, the CVS Media Exchange, or CMX, helps brands and partners reach CVS Pharmacy customers and members of its Extra Care Loyalty Program through a variety of digital platforms, including social channels, programmatic display, and on cvs.com. [00:00:32] Damian: There's been a ton of advertiser interest in the retail media space. In fact, it's become one of the fastest growing digital media channels. [00:00:39] Ilyse: According to Group M, retail media networks are expected to grow revenues by 8. 3 percent in 2024. We start off by asking Parbs about this revolution. [00:00:50] Damian: So, Parbs, we keep reading about the retail media revolution from retail media networks exploding to self service and data portability. What do you think the next phase of this [00:01:00] revolution is? Well, the [00:01:01] Parbs: the retail media revolution is in full swing, isn't it? it's rockin and rollin right now. and, doesn't seem to be slowing down and letting up. [00:01:08] I think the, Group M stat and growth that they're forecasting for this year is an interesting one. we also know that it's gonna be the fastest growing channel, right the way through 2027. If you look at the market to stats, we're gonna outpace linear TV in the next couple of years. [00:01:23] So there is tremendous amount of growth. I think as we think about that revolution as we think about the way in which we operate as an organizer, as as an industry as a whole. measurement, transparency and clear campaign attribution are going to continue to be the driving force of the way in which we think about our business. [00:01:42] this has got to be central for brands. We have an opportunity as an industry to really change the game there and we're very much leaving in. the other piece is, is around how do we continue to advance in technology, how do we continue to advance in, using AI, [00:02:00] machine learning, a lot of the analytics tools that are going to be available to us and build our capabilities so we can really start to compete with some of those larger platforms, within the industry. [00:02:11] And then also, let's always not forget, retail media is nothing without the core brands that we are retail media networks, and a part of. So, in this instance, we're very much a retail media network. CMX is the retail media network for CVS, pharmacy. we operate under that guise, And what is most important to us within that capacity is for us to really understand and meet the needs of the consumer. [00:02:36] If we don't understand the consumer, we can't meet their needs. If we can't service the consumer and help understand, whether they're in a store environment and how could we create a level of discoverability in the in store environment? Or how do we create that discoverability in digital environments? [00:02:53] That's when we start to lose our gravitas. So thinking about the consumer first and then how do we add [00:03:00] to their experience as they're shopping through our stores, both, as I said, from a physical as well as digital and looking at it through the omni channel lens. [00:03:09] Damian: and just off the back of that, you do have tremendous scale. What kind of customer reach are you looking at? [00:03:15] Parbs: Yeah, it's a, great question. And you got to remember CVS, pharmacy is a national brand in the United States. And I'll give you some, this probably the moment for me to, throw a few stats at you, right? Like, let's do this. so first and foremost, CVS stores, there's 9, 000 locations in the U S. [00:03:32] we are, part of CVS health, which is, The largest health and wellness, business in the U. S.  [00:03:39] Parbs: As you think about our stores in particular, we have close to 5 million interactions with our stores every single day from consumers. So, vast amount of traffic that comes through our stores and for various need states as well. [00:03:52] from a digital perspective, we have almost 140 million, Users who are coming to the CVS. com site and again interacting with us [00:04:00] with various different need states. but shopping is a core component of that. And then the most important stats certainly from a CMX standpoint is we are predicated and built upon our loyalty program. [00:04:11] And it kind of differentiates us a little bit from other retail media networks. Our loyalty program is 74 million extra care consumers. substantial. at scale, but also gives us that really strong purview of that omnichannel experience. So hopefully that sort of just helps you give an understanding of the scale that we operate within. [00:04:33] Really? [00:04:33] Damian: yeah, I mean, it's massive and we want to talk a little bit more about the Extra Care Loyalty Program. [00:04:38] Parbs: Program. If there's anybody out [00:04:39] Damian: further on. but you know, I'm not sure if this question if there's anybody out there right now who doesn't actually, subscribe to retail media. the power of retail media. But what would you say to such a person, an advertiser who believes retail media doesn't fit into their media investment? [00:04:55] Parbs: Yeah, I say that to them that, you know, retail data, [00:05:00] the way in which we see the transactions within our stores, that level of wealth of proprietary data is an understanding of. Of behaviors and the way in which consumers are shopping between digital, physical environments when they're coming into store, the frequency by which they're purchasing product. [00:05:17] That is a highly effective tool. And as a brand, if you're not leveraging that, you're missing out on an enormous channel. This is the reason why. Brands are leaning in heavily. They're becoming much more sophisticated in how they use retail media. I think they're also really pushing retail media as well to become more sophisticated in the offerings, more sophisticated in the way that we measure more sophisticated in the way in which we provide that level of transparency across our businesses. [00:05:46] Closing the loop and building that attribution model is also really, really important. That sets us apart from any other platform. like that. There are some of the larger platforms that have continually [00:06:00] struggled to provide that level of closed loop attribution as I think about I saw an ad or I've engaged with an ad. [00:06:08] And what has that driven me to do? And what is the outcomes as a result of that? That again is something that retail media is very much in an exclusive camp. And we've got to make sure that brands truly understand how to use them. [00:06:21] Damian: that [00:06:22] Parbs: And the other thing that we should, make sure that we, that we understand is that there's retail media networks that have enormous amount of first party data. [00:06:33] And as a result of that first party data, [00:06:35] Damian: not [00:06:36] Parbs: it gives us the ability to leverage that consumer across the omni channel. But not just on our own owned and operated properties, but how do you leverage that data or that asset across the open web. Right when you're trading with, through be it through DSP environments or otherwise. [00:06:53] How do you leverage that CVS data, the extra care loyalty program to continually [00:07:00] enrich your programs, your marketing efforts to drive more performance to drive more product to drive more engagement with the consumer. So we're sitting on a we're sitting on a massive opportunity. And it's in our hands, right? [00:07:14] It's in our hands as the retailers to, To step up. It's in our hands to make sure that we continue to provide all of the things that brands are looking for and provide that level of transparency on how we're measuring our performance and more importantly, bringing brands in the industry along on this. [00:08:38] We're, it's got to be additive to their journey, not disruptive. we want to, we don't want to put things in the way of the consumer getting to the products that they need. But we, what we do is we want to enable a level of discoverability through the retail media networks that gives them access to products that they didn't realize that they could buy at CVS. [00:08:55] They didn't realize that they were, in the beauty counter. I think it's, I think those are really [00:09:00] important. [00:09:00] Ilyse: really important. Yeah. On that note, last year, CVS is extra care. It was named one of Newsweek's best loyalty programs. How has CVS cultivated such a strong relationship with its customers? [00:09:12] Parbs: Yeah, and look, extra care has been around for over two decades. The longitudinal latitudinal nature of the program gives us a really strong insight into the way that the consumers have been having and purchasing products with us. again, I'm sounding like a little bit of a broken record here. [00:09:30] It's not my intention, but the consumer is at the center of everything that we do. Understanding the way that the consumer purchases, it enables us to deliver message, personalized message to those consumers in the environments within which they operate. We can understand certain need states and how that consumer is wanting to go, and work with us in the, in our environment. [00:09:50] we will continue to build, that loyalty program for, with extra care. It's the foundation of CMX, we've talked about it at the top of this podcast. There's [00:10:00] 74 million of those consumers, they're swiping at really high levels. they're engaging with our, with our program as well. [00:10:06] And, yeah. that's where the opportunity comes on. I was providing a level of service back to them with the ads business as well. [00:10:12] Damian: self service. The [00:10:13] Ilyse: On that note, no, separate notes. but along the line of service, CVS Media Exchange introduced the self service option for advertisers that was announced this past CanLion. why is launching a self service important for increased transparency? I know that's a popular buzzword around, the industry, but it's also extremely important. [00:10:36] Yeah, [00:10:37] Damian: transparency [00:10:38] Parbs: Transparency is, it is a buzzword, but it's a it's an old. It's also an incredibly important foundational pillar for us as a business. and the way in which we operate. So I think that's the, I would say that. the, related to the self serve announcement, that we announced at CAN, it's actually more about, whilst the transparency is there, it's also about accessibility.[00:11:00]  [00:11:00] How do we provide a level of accessibility to our inventory, in, ways in which they can access that inventory through a DSP platform through a particular seat. So sell serve opens up how brands want to work with retail media. And we've only really been in market as a retail media network since 2020. [00:11:21] We're developing this business. We're bringing it to market. I think we're doing it at speed. I think we're doing it very thoughtfully on The partners that we work with, in this instance, we're working with a trade desk on this self service program. trade desk shared our values. [00:11:35] They share the way in which we want to innovate. They share the way in which we are looking at the consumer and driving that technology in order to continue to develop solutions for our advertisers. What I don't want us to forget is You know, as we think about that accessibility, as we think about transparency, how do we continue to iterate from here? [00:11:57] How do we continue to develop innovation with [00:12:00] other tech partners, with the trade desk to, to further enhance how we're, bringing new solutions to our advertisers? [00:12:07] Ilyse: Can you actually explain it a little bit more? Where, in using your self serve option, where can advertisers expect their ads to appear, or how are they accessing your data to, to drive [00:12:23] Parbs: Yep. So we're going into a closed beta, with the trade desk. That will allow a certain number of select advertisers to come and work with us and develop programs, within our closed self serve beta environment. we're building audiences within those environments. The way in which it will operate is that the brand will use their Trade Desk C in order to activate campaigns through the Trade Desk DSP into the open web. [00:12:52] So they have the ability to buy OpenWeb or CTV and all of the different products that are available through the Trade Desk [00:13:00] but accessibility to 74 million extra care consumers. It's the first time that we've made that available in a self serve capacity, with the Trade Desk. Now. , that's not always how brands wanna operate. [00:13:11] Some brands want to go into the self-serve world and others want to just cont continue down the managed service route. So we will continue to offer managed serve as an option. so that product will remain and we have a strong team to support that. But we also want to create, again, accessibility options for the way in which brands wanna engage with us. Very interesting. [00:13:34] Damian: Now, you wrote an op ed for The Current, this year, and in that op ed you said something, if I may quote you, creating a tailored customer experience across channels and pulling together data from various touchpoints, that being website visits, mobile apps, in store interactions, loyalty programs, and more. [00:13:53] It can be a challenge, and I know we often like to talk about, opportunities and hand in hand with challenges. I wonder if you [00:14:00] could talk a little bit about the challenge you're referencing there. [00:14:04] Parbs: Yeah, the challenge stems from, again, retail media is predicated on really closing the loop, so how do we attribute an action, right the way through to purchase. And if you think about, hyper personalization, for the consumer, to drive more engagement. That consumer is, it's, they're difficult to reach, but they're more importantly, they're difficult to make sure that we continually serve the right level of message to them in the right environments. Previously, retailers have struggled with, bringing that, the assets, the data components, and then how do you target personalized message to them within the channels that we want to talk to them as well. That's where, our first party data and the use of our first party data and as we're building our audiences really actually comes [00:14:59] Ilyse: [00:15:00] the [00:15:00] Parbs: its own. [00:15:01] That challenge of, Understanding the consumer and how you can actually leverage that consumer in different channels That's really the driver to building a performance business for our brands [00:15:15] Damian: a lot [00:15:16] Parbs: We're seeing a lot of work around, whether it's through customer data platforms or other technology, to bring our consumers to life. [00:15:23] We use data clean rooms to make sure that, we always drive the security of our, uh, consumer, that we're not passing any data, any information through to, consumers. [00:15:33] Ilyse: tech [00:15:34] Damian: to maintain [00:15:35] Parbs: or through to any other platforms. We're maintaining that level of privacy. These are all obviously challenges. but it's important to mention that, as we think about propriety data, we think about precision targeting, we think about that real time optimization and that also the attribution [00:15:51] Damian: attribution of [00:15:52] Parbs: of an end to end reporting. [00:15:54] That's where brands are really embracing retail media networks. That's where we've got to lean in as an [00:16:00] industry, and we've got to get better, we've got to get more transparent about how we're providing those solutions. because that, again, will grow the industry. And, look, we've seen the IAB come to the market with some clear guidelines on how we should be measuring, and what are the standardization of metrics. [00:16:17] There's got to be more of that. Then there's got to be more of that lean in from retail media networks, because we've all got to move together to build a better industry, to build a better way in which brands can use our platforms, and give them options in the way in which they're talking to consumers. [00:16:33] And, that's the exciting piece. It's phenomenal for retail media, right? Like It's a real moment. [00:16:39] Damian: Yeah, you're writing them on the front lines of it. one aspect of retail data is that, advertisers can connect their digital environment with the physical shopping environment. And as you mentioned, CVS Pharmacy has all of these environments, physical environments across the United States. [00:16:59] Why does it [00:17:00] matter that you connect those up? [00:17:01] Parbs: connect those up? because the connection of the digital and physical environments, it's crucial because consumer shops, How they want to shop, depending on that current need stay or this particular situation that they're in at any given time, right? [00:17:17] there's, if we think about that level of integration of data around online and offline buying behaviours, like advertisers are consistently trying to understand, first of all, how do you create a seamless experience between those two environments? But then more importantly how do you influence the consumer through that journey? [00:17:37] Like we, we talk, for a number of years within this industry we've talked about our traditional funnel approach and there's no funnel anymore. retail media has actually condensed the funnel and you're, Point of delivery of message to through to point of purchase has shortened so much. [00:17:55] it's it's almost an in. It's there's no awareness. There's no consider. It's just go [00:18:00] straight down to the bottom of the funnel and purchase from the moment that you see an ad. And so we've got to think about, how do we continue to add value in that process right the way through the digital and physical, experiences. [00:18:14] There are some challenges there as well, right? Like it's, when we think about showing a, an ad to a consumer in a digital environment and then whether they purchase that product in digital or they, It's, buy online, pick up in store and send it to a store or they, go into a store and purchase, we see 52 percent of our, web and app users who start their journey in the digital capacity and then finish it in a physical capacity as well within 48 hours, right? [00:18:43] Like that's the kind of thing. Yeah, and we've got to make sure that again, like working with the brands to to really surface those kind of insights so they can then be along that journey with that consumer as well through the experience. [00:19:00] Some of the in store activations when we got around about, we've got screens within our in store environments, at the pharmacy counter, we have digital audio, we have out shelf promotions and so on. [00:19:11] Some of those are a little bit more difficult to measure. I think one of the challenges that we will face as an industry is how do we bring a level of measurability to those components and, I, there's a lot of, different outfits that are driving that. but with that, I think personalization needs to be consistent. [00:19:27] Showing the value of connectivity between the digital and physical environments being with that consumer across that entire journey and every single touch point will also set you apart from the rest of the industry. ongoing. this is an evolution, right? As, as we continue to [00:19:44] Ilyse:  [00:19:44] Damian: That's [00:19:49] Ilyse: that in the retail media space as it stands today? And how do you think it can evolve since it's so new? [00:19:58] Parbs: Yeah, I am passionate [00:20:00] about it, and I'm passionate about it because I've been in this industry for 25 years, and I have I think we can do better, as it relates to D and I, and As we give opportunity across all different layers of an organization, these are really important for the growth of our industry. [00:20:26] And I'm not just talking about retail, I'm talking about the advertising industry, for us to build opportunity for more diverse voices within our business, for different ways of thinking, for the way in which we want to be change agents within the whole industry. And We've got to continue to do better. [00:20:48] Where retail media comes into play is that as we build this industry from the bottom up, it gives us an opportunity to think about D& I a little bit differently. we're building teams that are new teams. we might [00:21:00] already have a blueprint from different organizations that we work with on what's worked or what's not worked. [00:21:06] And as we've looked at CMX, we've built purposefully A level of diversity into our organization that gives us an understanding of not just the way in which we want to think as an organization, but it also gives us a relationship with how our consumers are. we have consumers shopping us from across the United States. [00:21:28] They're consumers from various walks of life. And if we understand the consumer and we can share it. an understanding of who they are and live in their shoes because we have, then that gives us an ability to think a little differently about our businesses. And then how does that relate to retail media? [00:21:47] I think we can do better. I would like us to do better. I do challenge the industry around there. but overall, I think, retail media can really pave the way for how we think about D and I initiatives and bringing more [00:22:00] diverse voices Into our industry, and we're definitely doing that in CMX. [00:22:03] We can stand behind that. [00:22:04] Parbs: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:22:06] Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:22:09] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns. [00:22:16] Damian: And remember, I'm Damian. [00:22:18] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:22:19] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Mark Penn, the chairman and CEO of Stagwell Inc., reflects on his extraordinary career, driven by his passion for politics and marketing, and offers insights on why this is a good year for marketers.  Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler. [00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. [00:00:02] Damian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:00:05] Ilyse: This week we're delighted to talk with Mark Penn, the Chairman and CEO of Stagwell. [00:00:10] Damian: Well, first, as a political pollster, who's advised names like Bill and Hillary Clinton and Tony Blair. [00:00:20] Later, he became Chief Strategist for Microsoft, before founding Stagwell, a digital first marketing and communications group. [00:00:28] Ilyse: Mark's political background no doubt brings a much needed perspective to marketing. He argues that in today's real time, data driven world, brands must have a constant finger on the pulse of the American consumer. [00:00:42] Damian: We start by asking him how these two worlds, politics and marketing, have always been bound together [00:00:48] mark, it's no secret that you've covered the waterfront from being a political strategist to a poster to businessman and author. You know, can you walk us through a little bit about how you went from polling to politics to media? [00:01:00] That's a big question, right? [00:01:01] Yes, I'm still trying to answer that question  [00:01:03] Mark: myself. How did I get here? Uh, you know, I kind of re strategize myself like every decade or so. And I said, well, okay, what is it that I really want to do? And, and so I, I kind of started actually out as I was going to be a lawyer. Uh, and then I detoured from law, law to polling. [00:01:22] And then I was going to be a pollster working for the president. And I got to do that. So then I kind of detoured from there. And then at a certain point, and I love technology. So I was then kind of went to Microsoft and became chief strategy officer. And then I, I had this idea to say, why can't I take all my experiences in polling and campaigns and running bursts in Marsteller. [00:01:45] And I ran Microsoft's advertising too. And I said, you know what? I could form a better holding company because it could be more digital first. It could be more freed from the legacy assets. It could be more innovative. And so I did exactly that. [00:02:00]  [00:02:00] Damian: Yeah, doing a little research on your background, it seems like your curiosity seems to have served you very well throughout life. [00:02:06] Is that part of the DNA of, of what drives you or what, what keeps, what motivates you to keep going?  [00:02:12] Mark: Well, you have to do what you're interested in. You know, I always think, it's so funny. You know, my partner and I were going to be corporate lawyers. And, and then we decided, you know what? We like this polling thing. [00:02:22] We have impact on campaigns and society. And we thought, oh, we're giving up this cushy life as corporate lawyers. And we, we did a lot better doing polling than we ever would have done as corporate lawyers. So, what I always tell people is, follow your passion. Don't worry so much. If you do something, do it. [00:02:38] Really interesting. Really? Well, you'll, you'll figure out how to, you know, how to manage the, the reward side of things, and that's much better than doing something you don't really like that you somehow think is going to be rewarding.  [00:02:51] Damian: Now, Stagwell, as you mentioned, offices, big marketing network, let's tech driven, you know, as a leader in digital, you know, uh, how have you seen the [00:03:00] two areas move together, you know, the idea of digital marketing performance and creative, how do those two things. [00:03:07] Mark: Well, I think they have to work together. I think that to the extent that you're creating a digital experience, that is a creative activity. That, that everyone remember, those of us who were not born digital, think of how we create a TV spot first. Those who were born digital don't think in that way. They think in how they're going to create a digital experience first. [00:03:35] Right? And, and that takes the same kind of creativity, if not more so. Right? Because TV spots eventually had like a, they had like a, they had rules. Right? And they had a boundary and they were 30 seconds. And, you know, and you can be like, it's actually more of an interesting open canvas when it comes to digital creation. [00:03:54] Ilyse: What would you say is one thing every brand or media buyer should be [00:04:00] thinking about today?  [00:04:01] Mark: Uh, every media buyer, I think, today is just thinking about how they get the, Find the right place for their brand. [00:04:10] I mean, I, I think, I think it's, it's kind of the basic of who's your real target audience and, and how, how are you going to find that audience? And I think they just have to be open minded that it's, that there are so many new ways to reach an audience that they have to spread their wings a little bit. [00:04:28] Right. I mean, I think we went from, it was just TV. to it was just TV and Google and Facebook. So now it's Google Tiktok and retail marketing and so many other things. And I think they just have to be open to experimenting to find where their target audience really is.  [00:04:43] Ilyse: Now it's no secret that the publishing industry is under a lot of pressure today. [00:04:48] And Stagwell recently published a study called the news advertising study with the Findings that showcase that it's safe for brands to advertise next to news, regardless [00:05:00] of the topic, and that adds next to those even like controversial topics performed just as effectively as those within more like positive news environments, maybe like sports or entertainment. [00:05:12] Now in your op ed for the current, you wrote that brands think there is less downside in those positive environments, but the opposite is true too. There is less upside. Can you tell us what you mean and why should advertisers care about these findings?  [00:05:27] Mark: Well, I think that I discovered, and I discovered this when I did the budgeting at Microsoft. [00:05:32] A lot of companies have a huge hole in their media buy. And that hole is news. Uh, that they will be advertising in sports and they will be advertising in entertainment. And they will be blocking out news, or they will be subscribing to a service that in effect blocks them out. And what maybe started out as some good idea, you know, that your, the ad for your, for Boeing shouldn't appear next to a plane crash, really [00:06:00] somehow devolved into something affecting 25 percent of news articles. [00:06:04] Seriously demonetizing journalism. And it's having unintended consequences far beyond that. And brand safety? Seriously? I mean, I've yet to see some brand lying in the curb because their advertisement appeared in the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal. It's a ludicrous notion to be blacking out legitimate journalistic publications for, quote, brand safety. [00:06:30] Damian: In general, the business model for news journalism is sort of evolving and changing. You know, what else is new? What do you think can advertisers and publishers do to work together to make sure that journalism is thriving even as newsrooms shutter?  [00:06:42] Mark: Well, I think that there has to be a little bit of re education here with the CMOs and the media buyers. [00:06:50] I think they're afraid that somehow they're going to trigger some backlash against their company. Yeah, certain, certain things have [00:07:00] triggered a backlash. But to go back to, I've never known that backlash to come from advertising in one of the major publications. And, and so consequently, I think that they can reduce some of their fear levels. [00:07:12] And then also they have to understand that news consumers, right, in about 25 percent of the country, maybe 23 percent of the country, are what I classify as news junkies, right, who, who go in and, and, And kind of get updated on the news five times a day. That is a great engaged audience. They read stuff. [00:07:32] Okay. That means they're more likely actually to kind of absorb your advertisement than someone who doesn't read stuff. Uh, and, and so I think they really have to rethink how some of their media planning and the audiences they're targeting and, and get out there and experiment with news. Cause I, again, I, I think, I think for the social problem here is that it's demonetizing news and putting journalists out, out of work. [00:07:57] But just be greedy. Just, just go, you know, just [00:08:00] think about your brand. I think it will benefit.  [00:08:02] Damian: They shouldn't be on the back foot so much. Speaking of news, of course, this year is a presidential election year in the U. S. and elections all around the world. Um, what do you think are the top channels in today's media landscape for this year's U. [00:08:13] S. presidential election?  [00:08:15] Mark: Well, I, I, I think that's, that's kind of interesting. Look, most campaigns spend most money on TV, right? So, but as I tell commercial advertisers, you know, if you have your customers in Ohio, well, Ohio is a less of a swing state than it was, but let's say Arizona or Nevada, Virginia. [00:08:34] Good luck. Good luck buying media, you know, in the last few months here, because it is going to be jammed because there's more money than ever in politics, right? And so then, then politics is, is, is then going to go over to, to social media. Right? And I think spend a lot of money on on social media, uh, all being right. [00:08:55] And you know, and you're going to find just from an age cohort, you're going to find people on X or [00:09:00] older and people on Tiktok or younger. And kind of, you have to kind of understand your audience and the medium. So it's interesting. You know, I came from a lot of old school TV advertising. Uh, I've yet to see how people as effectively drive a message. [00:09:16] Right on social media. I think they've got to do more work. As I always say, the best digital ads in either politics or commercial have yet to be invented,  [00:09:27] Ilyse: you know, to that. effort, um, especially when connecting with, like, Gen Zers, do you think technology will play more of a role? Is that, do we see candidates still, um, sticking true to, like, social media or are there other channels you think they're playing even more in this year? [00:09:44] Well, it's [00:09:44] Mark: interesting that, you know, what does Trump really do? Trump does events, so his event strategy is then geared to create content that then gets distributed primarily through social media, right? And, and so it's [00:10:00] very interesting because, because it's almost, you know, we look here, you know, I'm, we're, well, we're, we're at something called Sport Beach, and so, so events are back. [00:10:09] And events aren't a substitute for the media. They are, they generate the content that you really need. That's because people, people want content that's fresh, right? And they want to feel that they're in the moment. They don't want something that's old and that's canned. Uh, and so I think that's, that's really, really important. [00:10:28] But we are seeing, look, we know that about 70 percent of budgets now have really gone online. And that is, that is, you know, back, when I was at Microsoft a decade ago, it was probably 2%. So that has gone beyond anybody's expectations. Of course, that was one of the reasons that I founded Stagwell because we saw that and we wanted to be ahead of that curve. [00:10:51] And of course, that's one of the things that we, you know, work together closely with the trade desk on.  [00:10:56] Ilyse: Totally. Um, now personal politics aside, [00:11:00] what advice would you share with Biden's team and Trump's team? Where's the gap in each of their campaigns as, as it stands?  [00:11:07] Mark: Well, but I would really tell both of them the same thing. [00:11:10] Uh, you know, I try to explain to people the math of swing voting, that if an election is 5 5 and it switches, one person switches, it becomes 6 4. Now, it takes two people in turnout to equal one person who switches. So, getting switchers is really the most powerful thing in politics. And getting switchers means appealing to people who don't agree with you, right? [00:11:36] And so what I would say is get out of the politics of the base. Get into the politics of switchers. Reach out to the people who don't agree with you. Try to find compromises, uh, in policy that brings them in. And whoever does that most successfully will not only win, but we'll win in a landslide. And if alternatively they appeal only to their base, they may win. [00:11:57] They may lose, but they will not have changed the 50, [00:12:00] 50 nature of the, of the country.  [00:12:04] Damian: Now, You know, you're known as a sage advisor. What's the best advice you've ever received? Yeah,  [00:12:11] Mark: well the best advice I ever received was at an elevator In which in which In which a guy told me he was a he was he was a stock analyst And he said, buy Amazon. [00:12:33] He said, sell every other stock you have and buy Amazon because they will be the future of retailing. And this was like when Amazon was a peanut, I of course thought the guy was a nutcase. [00:12:48] And so I did not follow that advice. Uh, I would say that, that though, seriously, the, um, You know, I've worked for a lot of incredible people and, and, and [00:13:00] I always try to pick up kind of, kind of what they do best, right. And, and, you know, I worked with president Clinton and president Clinton was just amazing at, at synthesis. [00:13:10] You would, you would throw incredibly complex things at, at him and he would fit them all into, into pieces or, you know, or I worked, you know, with Steve Ballmer, who's a core investor. And I just thought he was like, I didn't understand how he had 110, 000 people and went home. Uh, and how his time management was so radically different than, than mine. [00:13:31] So I always try to pick up things from whomever, whomever I worked with. Uh, and to see like, what's the special thing, some of the special things that, that really work well. Fascinating. Now Stagwell is no stranger to growth or acquisitions. And  [00:13:47] Damian: what does the future hold for Stagwell?  [00:13:50] Mark: Well, you know, I always explain, we started Stagwell eight years ago, you know, at zero. [00:13:55] We're about two and a half billion in revenue now. We [00:14:00] continue to expand out, you know, globally and also globally. You know, building a series of tech, uh, of tech products. Uh, I feel that we're a teenager now, you know, we were a baby two or three years ago and, and, and we've got, we're, we're really now coming on as a challenger network, uh, and we're going to continue to challenge, but we think we have a lot of growth, a lot of growth ahead of us. [00:14:23] Ilyse: Now there's a lot of things affecting the industry. A lot of major topics that are being discussed nonstop. What is your prediction for the end of 2020? 2024 and into 2025.  [00:14:36] Mark: Look, I think this is going to be a good year for marketing. It's going to be 12 billion spent on politics. So that's always helpful, uh, to, to, you know, and, uh, and, you know, I think we have a, we have a good, you know, uh, We have several companies that are in the political space. [00:14:52] Uh, I think that, that advertising is growing, uh, generally. I think 20, I think tech companies [00:15:00] have a lot of work to do in terms of the competition now that's, uh, that's occurring on who's going to really dominate in AI, if anybody, or how are people going to have different flavors of AI. So I think there's a lot of exciting stuff going on. [00:15:14] I think 23 was a year I couldn't wait for it to finish. You know, it was not the year that we were hoping for. But 24, you know, sitting here in mid year, it's looking good. [00:15:23] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:15:26] We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:15:29] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Cat Fessy and Sydney Cairns. [00:15:35] Damian: Cairns. And remember,  [00:15:36] Mark: A lot of companies have a huge hole in their media buy. And that hole is news. [00:15:43] Damian: I'm Damian. [00:15:43] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:15:44] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report

Polaris’ Chief Customer Growth Officer talks with The Current Podcast about how many of the company’s customers are multicultural and have preferred style over performance. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:59] Damian: I'm [00:01:00] Damian ​Fowler.[00:01:05] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. And[00:01:07] Damian: welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.[00:01:09] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Pam Kermisch, the Chief Customer Growth Officer at Polaris. [00:01:15] Damian: Polaris was founded 70 years ago with the invention of the early snowmobile in 1954. Polaris takes its name after the North Star, and it's meant to reflect the location of the company's first headquarters in northern Minnesota. [00:01:34] Ilyse: These days, Polaris is the global industry leader in power sports. Offering everything from Indian motorcycles to its off road racers. And all the accessories that go with them.[00:01:44] Damian: During the pandemic, the brands saw a surge of interest in its vehicles as people embraced outdoor activity. Although it started out as a specialized brand, it continues to build on its popularity through its marketing campaign. Think outside. [00:02:03] Pam: Back in 1954, two brothers and a best friend decided they way, faster to get to their location. And they literally strapped a motor to the back of a sled and created the first snowmobile. It was ingenuity at its best. [00:02:20] And when I think about Polaris today, We have recreational vehicles. We have motorcycles. We have off road vehicles. We have boats. We also have utility vehicles that help people do work smarter. And at the end of the day, it's really about getting people outside and helping to have a better way to do things, whether it's working smarter or on the recreational side, having the most epic experiences with your friends and family.[00:02:47] Ilyse: Very nice. Now in 2019, the brand actually underwent a new rebranding with a new Think Outside campaign. [00:02:56] Ilyse: I read that there is a goal to basically grow the base [00:03:00] by 50 percent by tapping into your existing base and finding new customers as well. What was your strategy around that and how has it played out to this point?[00:03:11] Pam: Yes. So in 2019, We really took a look at talking to our existing customers, talking to potential intenders of our brands and talking to people we thought might be interested in what we offer. And we did some great consumer research. And what we learned is at the heart of it, we tapped into what they really care about.[00:03:35] And what we found is what our current existing owners care about. More people could care about. We just had to find the right people. We had to reach out to them. We had to show them how this could fit into their lives and introduce them to our brand. And it's really been a  huge effort the past few years. To find the right people and show them how this could fit in with what they  already do and make it better. And on top of bringing in more new customers, it's also bringing in new people that look a little different than our core customers.[00:04:11] Damian: Very interesting, because when you think what sell in a way, kind of very specialized, I don't know whether I'd it niche. [00:04:22] Pam: you know, I think when you look at household penetration off road vehicles, for example, household - So you're right. It's not something where it's 70, 80, 90 percent of the market has one of these. But what I will say is if you think about some of the audiences. We do attract people love outdoor recreation. love being outside. They love adventure. They might do camping, they might do hiking, they might do fishing. We also think about the people who do property maintenance They're farmers, they're ranchers, They're hunters. So, when you think about those populations, they are much more likely to buy our products. But if you look at the penetration even within those, We don't have 80 90 percent of hunters, so there's still so much penetration opportunity within people who do the activities where it seems like they would really benefit from something that we could offer them. [00:05:26] Damian: Was there a moment when you realized there was the potential to expand the audience? That's so interesting to me and I wonder how you found that opportunity.[00:05:40] Pam:  So I'm kind of a nerd, self admittedly kind of a nerd. And I really think that CRM and data and analytics played a huge role in this journey because prior to [00:06:00] having that type of capability, we actually didn't know how many customers we had. We had customers for decades, but we actually didn't know how many customers. We knew how many units we had sold, but units does not equal customers because you have people who have owned more than one over time. So going back a handful of years, we were able to Get CRM, take our data in, cleanse the data, de dupe our, people and, understand how many customers we had and set some goals and start measuring how many new customers came in each year.[00:06:35] And when I say new customers, some were brand new to the category. Some had owned competitive vehicles before, but never bought from Polaris.[00:06:45] Pam: some may have owned a used Polaris vehicle, but had never bought new from us. So It's not a flash in the pan sort of thing. This is a strategy that we really need to go after. And so it became very intentional to, of course, as the global leader, it's in our best interest to get existing customers and come back to buy again because we have the largest number of existing customers. But we also need to focus on bringing in new people and we've proven we can do it. So let's do it. [00:07:17] Ilyse: And that first party data is huge to any brand. How is Polaris is actually getting your first-party data from customers? Can you explain that shopper journey a little bit? And may how that journey may be different from a traditional auto dealer.[00:07:31] Pam: And Absolutely. So if you buy a car. It has to be warranty registered. So that manufacturer will know that you bought a car from them. So if anything should go wrong with warranty, that they are able to contact you. Very similar, when someone buys one of our vehicles and it gets warranty registered, we receive the customer information.[00:07:54] And we certainly can use third party data to append that, but we know who owns that vehicle. [00:08:00] We also do have people who visit our website. In our dealerships, the majority of them, we call them multi line dealerships. So, they do sell Polaris, but they also may sell Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Can Am. And so, you think of it very to being grocery store being in a cereal aisle, where you have all the competitors right there in the same you may think you're going to the cereal aisle to buy Frosted Flakes and Flip and buy multigrain cheerios. [00:08:32] Pam: A customer can come to our dealership thinking they're going to buy a Polaris Ranger and that salesperson can flip to a Can Am Defender. And so when you think about it, it is in our best interest with marketing to try to get that customer as committed to which brand and which product they want as early in the journey as possible to make sure that they can't get flipped at the last minute at the dealership. [00:08:59] Ilyse: You know, when it comes to digital marketing, because it's such a niche product, are there specific digital channels you've found to have more potential to reach the type of consumers you're trying to reach? [00:09:20] Pam: You know, I would say it's less about it being one particular channel because at the end of the day, our, our customers are, they're all over the place [00:09:31] in terms of their habits, their consumption habits, and whatnot. They're [00:09:34] regular people. But what's more important to us is understanding the people who buy our products. So we do have our owners. We know who our owners are. [00:09:44] And we can do third party data appending, we can do look alike modeling to understand. We can't afford to go after maybe everyone who loves the outdoors. That wouldn't make financial sense. We may not be able to afford to go after everyone who owns one or two or [00:10:00] five acres of property or more around the country or the world. But what we can do is do look alike modeling and use that data with our media partners to try to get more narrowed in on: Who are the right hunters that we should be going after? Who are the right type of landowners? And part of it is not only being able to find the right people but understanding which populations which segments came to our ones ended up buying, and using that info to continually optimize. But also, lot of really, smart things these days where using our current inventory and using that our media to be able to reach out to the right show them this sportsman that you looked at recently is available right now at this dealer down the block and trying to [00:11:00] drive urgency there or using other types of data that we might have.[00:11:04] whether they think they're shopping or not at that moment in time. [00:11:08] Damian: I wonder how you're connecting this because adventure tourism is a big deal right. And that's a growig market. Is that something you're growing into? [00:11:18] Pam: I, I Yes. So, several years ago we started something called Polaris Adventures. So certainly places rented off road vehicles in the past, but oftentimes they were the old ones kind of broken down and it was really important to us from a brand perspective. We're talking about if you're gonna do something from a brand perspective, build your brand. We wanted to make sure people were in the current vehicles, the most modern ones and the ones that we knew were going to give them the best experience. So we created something called Polaris Adventures. And you can go online and you can find Polaris Adventures and you can go to one of 270 locations. [00:12:00] 268 of them are in the United States.[00:12:01] One is in Mexico. One's in New Zealand. And you can rent a Polaris Side by Side Razor. You can rent a Polaris Slingshot, which is a three wheel roadster. Think of a Batmobile. It looks like a Batmobile. it rides on road. You can rent an Indian motorcycle if you ride motorcycles. And so you can do that in all of these different markets. And I'll tell you, even though I work at the company, I have used Polaris Adventures. I've ridden in the dunes in Oregon. I've ridden in the desert in Arizona and Mexico. I've ridden in the mud trails of West Virginia, and all, all kinds of other markets. In each one of those is a different experience because the terrain is very different. [00:12:42] Rock crawling in is completely different being in the and is completely different than being different than dunes in a [00:12:59] Pam: It's an [00:13:00] amazing way to people experience it. And you know what? Not all go buy one some will never buy one. Some may buy maybe at a time in life when it fits them better. And others may just put it in their Instagram feed. And guess what? I promise this. If you were to do this activity and you were to put it, in your Instagram feed, it is the best FOMO ever. All of your friends are, you know, texting. Where are you? What are you doing? and they want a piece of that. So I think it's highly relevant in today's world. And I think we're just playing a part of this growing travel market. [00:13:36] Ilyse: So, much fun. have fOMO right now. just even talking about and you know, it's [00:13:48] Ilyse: You described your family not as the stereotypical sports kind of family, and I would imagine there's a bunch of Polaris customers that wouldn't qualify as the stereotypical power sports types of people. Are there any types of segments that you wouldn't expect that are interested in power sports vehicles?[00:14:00][00:14:08] Pam: So it's interesting if you think about maybe what you would expect to think about from traditional power sports customers. You know, you might think older white male and historically, maybe that's how the category had been, particularly with ATVs and whatnot. Like I said, half of our customers now are younger women multicultural. So let's blow that up right now. But what I will say is going back a number of years ago, We created a product called the slingshot Polaris slingshot.[00:14:40] And like I said, it's a three wheeled vehicle. It rides on road. it's 5. 5 inches from the ground, open air cockpit. and it's very auto like, right? So now you can actually, get one that is automatic or manual. And, When we started with this vehicle, we assumed it was gonna be about performance because that's what a lot of power sports customers like.[00:14:59] [00:15:00] And if you look at it, it kind of looks aggressive, so it looks like it's gonna go super fast. We marketed it. We even did demos on racetracks because it was all about performance. And it was doing okay, not phenomenal. And we actually looked at the data, and the data showed we had a much higher percentage of multicultural customers who own this vehicle, and that was really not typical of the industry.[00:15:25] So we did consumer insights research to understand what brought them to Slingshot, why did they love it, and what we found was they weren't coming in because of performance. It was the style that really appealed to them and they loved that when they drove around in this slingshot heads turned.[00:15:42] And when we said there's something to this, let's start marketing that way. First of all, I think the brand is 40 plus percent multicultural customers today. But on top of that, the white customers that are buying this love style, [00:16:00] The personalization. They love the same what's interesting is when you go slingshot meetups, a lot local groups, clubs that have organized and they all get together. [00:16:10] When you at [00:16:13] Damian: has [00:16:14] Pam: diverse group of people you've ever seen. You multicultural, old, young, it might not be a group of people you ever would have imagined congregating, but they are loving each other and checking out each other's slingshots and talking about getting together and how much they love it.[00:16:32] And it's this common community that has brought these people together. And so I think we've learned some great lessons about. Sometimes you think you know, and one of the number one rules of marketing is, you know, you don't know, don't make assumptions. You need to actually listen to customers, learn from them and be willing to adapt. And that's been an awesome learning and really opened our eyes to opportunity within power sports. [00:16:57] Ilyse: that's a [00:16:57] good [00:16:58] Pam: the [00:17:00] things and to these there's of that look [00:17:11] Damian: vehicles. And then that goes out on social [00:17:13] Pam: is [00:17:13] Damian: that a whole [00:17:16] Pam: know, white Absolutely. You know what? You know what? Here's what I will tell you. Going back, I joined Polaris in 2015 and we had done some research on the Indian motorcycle brand and the path to purchase and[00:17:32] back then, the number one way that people came in on the brand was word of mouth. And that's been probably for centuries and for decades, it's word of mouth. [00:17:43] Pam: And in motorcycles, it might been, know, yes, your friends and family, but go to a truck stop and someone else there and you're checking out their bike you're asking they ask you how you like it. The beautiful thing today that definitely still happens a lot. But with digital[00:18:00][00:18:00] Ilyse: kind [00:18:00] Pam: learn from and share with. People they don't even know. And so you see people when they're shopping for a vehicle, they will ask, how do you like yours? What do you like? What don't you like? And it's authentic word of mouth. And so from a brand perspective, if you create something wonderful and people love it and you make them feel valued and appreciated as customers, then hopefully they're the ones out there selling for you. [00:18:28] Ilyse: You know, you mentioned social media, and typically, at least, the younger generation are on social media. Is it more difficult to inspire those younger generations. They're known for being tied to their technology, I know the pandemic at least many people looked to go outside more. Now that it's more safe, is it harder to inspire those generations to think outside?[00:19:03] Pam: I don't think so. what I will say is getting outside with friends and family and sharing experiences. is something people, especially our younger people love to do. I think a lot of our younger customers will tell you that if they're new to the workforce or if they're in school, you know, they feel handcuffed to their responsibilities. [00:19:26] Sometimes when you get outside, you put the phone in the glove box and you go out for a ride and you just you turn the tunes on. You have a great time. You'll get back to the phone later. No question. And you're going to stop and capture a lot of content and share with your friends on on Snapchat and whatnot.[00:19:42] But it is 100 percent about sharing experiences, and they love that. But I will tell you, going back in time, Innovation has always fueled our category. That's just the new news. People always want the newest, latest thing. And for a long time, it was power, horsepower. Is it more [00:20:00] CCs? Is it, you know, bigger, better, stronger, faster? I will tell you, technology is playing a very large role now in what people are choosing to shop for. [00:20:10] So, a couple proof are, we have something called Ride Command. So, I want you to think about it. If you were off roading or going on a snowmobile ride, you're not on roads. And a lot of times you lose cell service out there. One of the biggest fears people have is getting lost. You're out there in the middle of the woods and you get lost. You're out there in the middle of the desert dunes, you get lost. We have ride command technology that the maps will work even when your cell phone service doesn't work. And that's super helpful. It also has a, capability ride. So say I out with different,[00:20:46] Ilyse: probably [00:20:48] Pam: we want to ride together, but I don't want to ride so close that I'm inhaling your dust or your exhaust. So we out, but you might come to a fork in the road and take a left and I go to the right. Now we lose each other. [00:21:00] That's not fun either. The ride command has a group ride function where I can see all the other razors in my group. So we can ride together. I'm doing air quotes, but we can separate. And then I still know where everyone is. So technology, it's not technology for technology's sake. It's actually making the ride experience better. And I think that is extremely relevant to our younger customers.[00:21:29] called group go five [00:21:32] Ilyse: sales climb. as, as more [00:21:43] Pam: want to spread for sure. You know, well, at my house, you know, at least in the beginning, I was Clorox wiping the groceries. So I think we all kind of have vague memories of those days and. Life wasn't very fun because you were trapped inside unless you could go outside on a walk or do something. And we saw our [00:22:00] business really sore because on one hand, from a recreational standpoint, it was something that you could do safely outside and actually think about off road riding. You could be riding with a bunch of friends and you could each be in your own vehicle. So you were safe. You're wearing a helmet. I spent that first summer of 2020. A lot of weekends out on our boat and out there, the world felt normal. So for sure we saw sales surge. [00:22:27] And we were concerned, though, thinking, Okay, this is great. But when people have other options to spend their money on, are they gonna just trade in all these vehicles and flood the market? And suddenly we're not gonna have a sustainable, you know, healthy business that we've been having. It's not the case.[00:22:47] We actually look very much at our repurchase rates, and we look at short term one year. We look at three year. We look at five year. We look at 10 year. When you look at the one and three year repurchase rates, they are [00:23:00] very healthy and the five year repurchase rate is very, very strong, which tells you that the customers we brought in in 2020, 2021, they aren't just abandoning.[00:23:12] They actually have found something that really works for them and they're continuing to come back and buy again. [00:23:18] And by the way, they're going to tell their friends and family. So we believe that, It's a, good example of I always say never waste a crisis. pandemic was tough for a lot of reasons, but it certainly gave our business a boost and brought in a lot of new customers. And it seems like it's a very healthy population we in.[00:24:36] Damian: That's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:24:42] Ilyse: The current Podcast theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Kat Fessy and Sydney Cairns.[00:24:48] Damian: And remember,[00:24:49] Pam: find the right show them how this could fit in with what they already do and make it better.[00:24:56] Damian: I'm Damian. And[00:24:57] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse. And[00:24:58] Damian: we'll see you next time. And [00:25:00] if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report. 

Foxtel Media CEO Mark Frain dishes on how the customer and advertising experience are shifting amid the proliferation of streaming. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damien Fowler.[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.[00:00:02] Damian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week we're delighted to speak with Mark Fra, the CEO of Foxtail Media.[00:00:10] Damian: Foxtel Media is the advertising arm of the Foxtel Group, one of Australia's leading media companies, with more than 4. 7 million subscribers.[00:00:19] Ilyse: Like many legacy broadcasters, over the last decade, Foxtel has reinvented itself for the Netflix era, building on its pay TV subscription model by adding in streaming platforms such as Binge and Kayo. It supports streaming services.[00:00:35] Damian: And last year, Foxtel introduced an ad tier on the service, following in the footsteps of Netflix and Disney We started by asking Mark about the state of the television advertising model in Australia this year.[00:00:46] Mark: Yeah, I mean, I think like the rest of the world, the TV market here in Australia is, going through significant change with the growth of, all of the streaming platforms with many of the, add tiers and add capabilities starting [00:01:00] to, launch in the Australian marketplace. Probably what is pretty unique, in terms of the Australian marketplace is that there's currently three major freeware broadcasters that all have their own, digital, platforms as well.[00:01:14] so they're managing transition from linear to digital themselves, but at the same time you've just got this enormous groundswell of video inventory coming from the streaming player. So we're, certainly getting towards a tipping point in the trends in the Australian TV marketplace at the moment.[00:01:31] Damian: Mark, could you just, put into perspective the growth of streaming that you've seen at Foxtel?[00:01:41] Mark: Foxtel has been on an enormous transformation for last four or five years. And if I look, probably four or five years ago, just under 10 percent of our subscribers were streaming customers. And if I look at where we are today, that number is just under [00:02:00] 70%. So a quantum growth in the type of customer we've got.[00:02:04] And critically, what that has also meant is that in the last four or five years, the Foxtel customer base Has grown pretty much close to 100 percent from where it was previously, and that's all been down to, the growth of streaming. And secondly, if I look at it from a Foxtel Media, advertising perspective.[00:02:27] And probably only three years ago that seven or eight percent of our advertising revenue came from digital. As we go into the next financial year, that number will be just under 60%. So we're the beneficiary of that change in customer base from Foxtel, from traditional broadcast TV business to one now that is, is leading and driving streaming the Australian marketplace.[00:02:51] Damian: Yeah, in terms of Foxtel, could you talk us through your relationship between, your existing linear model and [00:03:00] your launching of an ad tier on Binge?[00:03:03] Mark: Yeah. So traditionally, Foxtel has been the, major pay TV provider. In the Australian marketplace, with numerous, linear channels from sport, entertainment, news, all the typical, pay TV channels you would have, coupled with, two digital platforms, Foxtel Now, that have really been the IP services of Foxtel.[00:03:26] And then over the last four to five years, the Foxtel Group. Has launched heavily into streaming. Firstly, it launched KO, a dedicated sports streaming platform with over 40 premium sports, including both the major codes locally in Australia and a lot of the global content like Formula One, as an example.[00:03:50] About 18 months, two years after launch of KO, we then launched Binge. which is K. O. 's sister if you like, entertainment [00:04:00] platform backed by a lot of HBO, NBCU, content. So, made a significant jump, into streaming in the last three to four years. And that has allowed the Foxtel group to pretty much double its subscriber count, from being a traditional pay TV company to now one that plays heavily in streaming.[00:04:19] Damian: You know, in the streaming ecosystem, which we all know is highly competitive, right now, everyone's looking for subscribers and numbers, what's the competitive advantage that Binge brings to the table?[00:04:32] Mark: Yeah. Yeah, you're right. I mean, number one, it's enormously competitive. I think table stakes now are a premium level of content. unfortunately from the global content producers that we work with, coupled with our local content, I think we've got a significant library of content that has debt. I think if you, scratch the surface on some of the content offerings, you don't get the depth of premium content.[00:04:59] On [00:05:00] Binge, we've been very strict on running Four to five minutes of ads an hour on very tight on frequency capping just to make sure that, we give those customers that are buying into the value equation of subscription and advertising a very good customer experience, which includes both the content they're watching and also the advertising experience.[00:05:22] Ilyse: would you say Binge competes with other streamers when it comes to like content acquisition, production, and then maybe like ad experience?[00:05:33] Mark: Yeah. I think we're fortunate enough, that the way that almost the origins of the Foxtel pay TV business has given us relationships and longstanding content relationships with the likes of NBCU, Warner Brothers, Discovery, the BBC group, et cetera. So many of the big globally renowned, media businesses.[00:05:59] [00:06:00] So that has allowed us to transition a lot of that content from the traditional pay TV channels. onto an on demand platform like Binge, and then we've been a significant investor in local content. So we've been able to both produce a number of Binge originals but at the same time leverage the existing local content we've already produced across the Foxtel group. Almost, I mean, we often describe it internally as one kitchen with many restaurants. and by that, I mean by the many different points of distribution, whether that be a linear paid TV channel, or whether that be a binge, on demand platform.[00:06:45] so we talk a lot about, watchability as a term in our business and making sure that every platform that we represent, that the ad experience stacks up to be the most watchable experience for customers.[00:06:59] Ilyse: And does the [00:07:00] content you have speak to specific audiences? Or are you finding that your audience is really across the board?[00:07:11] Mark: There's no question. I think that's the beauty of the streaming platforms that various elements of kind of content bringing a very different audience. And we're in the streamer landscape, you're we're in this very much pause play mentality from a customer perspective. So if that content is so appealing for customers, they may come in.[00:07:35] And binge on that content for X amount of weeks or months and then dip back out.[00:07:40] Particularly with the under younger end of the market that come in and out and then maybe into another streaming platform where they've cited another bit of world kind of renowned content that's got heaps of social buzz with it.[00:07:52] Ilyse: Mm hmm. Yeah, right? That's what I was gonna say.[00:07:56] Damian: I think. Not to malign as a Gen X er. As [00:08:00] a millennial, I'm not[00:08:03] Ilyse: anything. Um, and so, that's interesting when you talk about, content in that way. and that has a lot to do with, viewer retention, as you mentioned. Is there anything else that, Foxtail is envisioning or, strategizing? to really hold onto those viewers or attract new ones.[00:08:25] Mark: Yeah, I mean, I, I think from our perspective, we've gotta, we've gotta continue to evolve, the customer and product experience. There is, there's not a moment to stand still in this streaming environment. whether that be improving the. The viewer quality from HD to 4K to 8K. I think customer expectations are so high.[00:08:50] And whatever we do, in terms of the content experience and the ad experience, we just got to make sure that total value equation, stacks up.[00:09:00] Ilyse: Yeah, you know, in the U. S. at least, bundling is very popular. especially if you're a major network like Disney that's bundling like three different of its like streaming services. What about when it comes to like partnerships with you guys? Are you looking into any of those types of offerings when it comes to like bundling?[00:09:22] Mark: Or, or are you looking to like partner with any network or streamer? , is kind of partnership is embedded in our model. whether that be, as I mentioned before, that the content partners, the Warner Brothers, the NBC use, of this world. So we've had a long standing relationships and partners with them moving forward and going back to the earlier points upon the value equation.[00:09:49] even in the core, Foxtel set top box business over time, we've continued to add, all of the streaming platforms to that service, whether it be Netflix, whether it be [00:10:00] Amazon, whether it be Paramount. So, customers have felt they were getting more of their content choices, more of their streaming platforms in, in one place.[00:10:10] So there's been a level of partnership with the streamers right from the outset even, with the core set, top box business, and we've carried that on, to where we are. today, in the last, few weeks we launched, Hubble, which is our, new streaming ion business. and within that, platform we've got a stack and save, opportunity for customers where.[00:10:33] to your point on bundling, the more subscriptions they have they get a bottom line discount and I think there's so many customers out there I put myself in that bracket that you sign up to numerous streaming services and half the time You don't know exactly how many you've got and how much you're paying for.[00:10:50] Um, so we've actually centralized that into One platform, one invoice, with a stack and save, kind of discount position for customers that have multiple [00:11:00] streaming options. So partnership is embedded in our model, no question.[00:11:03] Damian: Yeah, that's[00:11:04] Ilyse: easy. I wish we had that here, honestly. Because there's not one, really.[00:11:08] Damian: Yeah, right.[00:11:09] Ilyse: Kind of have to look back on everything you're charging, and that's, your card, and that's, that's[00:11:16] Mark: it doesn't take long for months to pass and realize you're still paying for Yeah,[00:11:24] Mark: In terms of like your kind of customer research or, your audience first approach, what are you hearing from your customers vis a vis, ads, the ad, not the ad experience per se, but whether, ads are a game changer for them, you know, in this era of kind of subscription fatigue and all of that.[00:11:43] Damian:  Are customers receptive to that ad load you're talking about and is that basically a selling point for Binge and your streaming channels when it comes to advertisers and attracting advertisers to those platforms?[00:11:57] Mark: in everything we do from a, [00:12:00] an advertising perspective to, respect our customers. We've got a very, customer first mentality within the Foxtel group. It's one of our, it's one of our values. And to your point, we test, the various levels. As I mentioned earlier, engagement and attention to our customers.[00:12:17] in terms of their level of response to the content and the advertising. And we kind of, we've seen their perceptions of, the binge brand hold really strong as we've added advertising to that platform. And you've got to look at the economic backdrop here. disposable incomes are under significant kind of, pressure, the hike in interest rates globally over the last.[00:12:43] 12 to 18 months have put enormous pressure on household spending. So I think the introduction of the ad tiers, not just the binge, but for a lot of the global players has been a, another, kickstart to, subscriber [00:13:00] growth levels, across the industry. And it just gives customers optionality.[00:13:06] and probably what was interesting When we added advertising to the binge platform, clearly we've done some modeling on what might be the churn levels of customer out of that tier and what might be the spin up into the next tier without advertising. And in both kind of cases, number one, the actual churn level in terms of those customers pulling out the platform was well under expectations.[00:13:39] in the zero point something kind of percent and a handful of more customers of spun up. So net, we were left with a scalable audience, even probably bigger than we actually modeled for our advertisers. So it was a really good story. So I think the research got us in the right place in terms of the ad experience we put forward.[00:14:00] Ilyse: I know we've written quite a bit about how, like, streaming is democratizing, sports in a way for, maybe perhaps, smaller brands to get in on sports, versus in a linear environment where it's, More expensive, usually. is that what you're experiencing? Is there a difference in brands wanting to advertise on linear versus streaming? Or, and how is that like playing out?[00:14:25] Mark: it's a good question. A lot of our, premium brands have transitioned into streaming at the same time to ensure they've got. Yeah. Brand presence and share a voice across both live linear and into streaming, but you're right that there's no doubt it's given opportunities for smaller brands to get on board and be involved in live sport, which historically may have been, cost prohibitive.[00:14:52] and what I would say in almost summary of that trend, we've, on our, major [00:15:00] sporting, properties here in Australia, whether that be the cricket, whether that be the AFL or the NRL, which I've already mentioned, in the last couple of years, we've had a record number of advertising partners on all of those kind of codes.[00:15:12] And that's been the blend of those big premium advertisers that have always been involved in sport, that have had the financial bandwidth to do so. Plus, A multitude of new brands that have come on, streaming. So we've got more, if you like major sports partners than you've ever had before.[00:15:30] Ilyse: I feel like it's also pretty interesting because when it comes to live sports streaming kind of offers an environment where, I don't know you can watch them at any point. For one thing, and then two, we've, at least we've written about how some more like niche sports are appearing in streaming environments, versus linear, and I'm curious what you think about that. Pickleball.[00:16:01] Mark: Great example. very timely, actually. last night I was, fortunate enough to be out with, wheelchair rugby Australia. and as an example, we brought, their content onto the KO platform, probably four years ago now. And what that has done to that code in particular, it's allowed them to grow exponentially in the number of teams that now play wheelchair rugby in the Australian marketplace, the number of participants they've got.[00:16:36] the number of females that are now playing it, and across those three or four years, the quality of that team has meant that they've been able to, they've won the World Cup, they've won the World Championships, and they're off to, the Olympics, later this year.[00:16:53] So, outside of the big ticket, sports, It's also great to show the impact you could [00:17:00] have on other sports that wouldn't be kind of, that aren't out there of competing for sports rights. It's a very different model about how you support them and their corporate growth moving forward.[00:17:12] Ilyse: know, it, it seems, even in Australia, it's a very fragmented media ecosystem. How are you thinking about measuring audiences, especially now with the rise of, alternative currencies? what's, the Aussie gold standard,[00:17:31] Mark: it's a fascinating question and I, myself and my team spend a lot of time, observing, reading, going to the U. S., the U. K. and observing the trends. And over the last probably three to four years, I mean, there has been a An explosion of alternate currencies in the U. S. when you look at the likes of, video amp and others taking the challenge to Nielsen, we observed that.[00:17:56] And whilst I don't think we're going to get to the [00:18:00] same level of different currencies in the Australian marketplace, I think you will see, publishers Probably grab the accountability of measurement themselves. moving forward. in this market, we've got, post town, which is a kind of, Nielsen supported, service and from a Fox sale perspective, we're part of that.[00:18:24] Industry standard, but we also recognize that we've got, set up box data with IP return path. We've got multiple streaming platforms. So a there's a role for us to make sure We leverage, that data probably more than we ever have. and that's not just to use it, internally in terms of retention and everything else you use your own data for.[00:18:52] But how do we actually use that for not just targeted advertising? How do we use it as a currency [00:19:00] moving forward? Because the depth of that data is so strong.[00:19:05] Now, While you were stating some of the various partnerships that you do have. And I'm just curious because it sounds like so many. how do you possibly manage all the partnerships? Especially with Foxtail's, yearly roadmap. I[00:19:24] it's a great question. I think, fortunately, a lot of, the content deals that the Foxtel business has is, Number one, they're multi year agreements, and therefore, the actual, the start and renegotiation dates, a lot of, a lot of those content deals are spread out across multiple years, so that gives us an opportunity to probably manage the heavy lifting part of those deals, which is often the renegotiation, and the work to move forward to continue a deal.[00:19:58] [00:20:00] But I think, this is not just, on the content side, this is certainly on the advertising side. One piece of feedback that we continually we get and probably more so than ever right now is the importance of senior relationships in the industry. Never have we seen probably an influx of such scale in terms of global streaming competitors coming to the market, particularly on The advertising and add to your side.[00:20:35] And one thing that I think we can, that can continue to stand the same good state is the senior level of relationships that we hold in the industry. And that's not, that's not exclusive to Australia. I think that's in any market. and that's one part that. We take very seriously in terms of how we manage, our partnerships, whether they be content or advertiser [00:21:00] related.[00:21:00] Damian: I guess we'd like to get a perspective of your, year in view. what's exciting you about the next six months?[00:21:09] Mark: I think going back to the point of kind of competition, we'll have, Amazon Prime will launch, its, advertising service, from a streaming video perspective later this year. Um, Paramount Plus have just announced the launch of their, ad tier. So there's enormous activity and interest in the category.[00:21:29] So our focus is number one, to be part of that growth curve in streaming video, if not leading in many, many areas, and probably one of the areas that I'm being truly honest, I wouldn't have forecast that it. Thank you. our involvement as a business, whether that be Foxtel Media or me personally, in audiences and in measurement, I've never been as personally involved, in that area.[00:21:59] And [00:22:00] I think there's a, there's an opportunity to get that right. and most importantly, getting that stands us in great stead for future growth. So seeing an explosion in both currencies and measurement, attention, engagement, and new metrics. So that feels like the new battleground for us moving forward and one that from a Foxtel perspective, we want to make sure that we lead.[00:22:27] Mark: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.[00:22:33] Ilyse: The current podcast theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Cat Vessey and Sydney Cairns.[00:22:39] Damian: And remember I'm Damian.[00:22:41] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.[00:22:42] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review.[00:22:47] Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Chief Marketing Officer Kory Marchisotto joins The Current Podcast to discuss why the makeup brand e.l.f. Beauty decided to air a Super Bowl ad, and why other female-driven brands are missing out. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler.[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing[00:00:02] Damian: welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Kory Marchisotto, the Chief Marketing Officer at e.l.f. Beauty.[00:00:11] Damian: Now maybe I'm the only one here, but I didn't realize that the word elf stands for eyes, lips and face. The brand was launched in 2004 and it filled a gap in the marketplace for inexpensive, high quality cosmetics. [00:00:26] Ilyse: Twenty years later, and e.l.f. has become a powerhouse brand. It went public in 2016, and since then has seen spectacular growth. Its sales soared last year, driven by retail channels and some seriously buzzy marketing.[00:00:42] Damian: We started by asking Kory, what gives the e.l.f. brand the edge in this very competitive marketplace?[00:00:50] Damian: So Kory, how do you think of the e.l.f. brand in this very competitive field? And what's your competitive advantage as it were?[00:00:58] Kory: I like to think about [00:01:00] e.l.f. as a brand of the people, by the people, for the people, created with the people. And for that to be true, we need to be totally in tune and have our finger on the pulse of what the people want, what they like, what are their unique needs, wants, and desires. So we really think about ourselves as stewards of our community's vision of e.l.f.[00:01:22] And that's a very unique place to be standing. How much value and emphasis we put on that community. They're, citizens of the brand. They have a vote, they have a seat at every table, and that is by definition, a very unique competitive advantage.,[00:01:41] Damian: speaking of competitive advantage, you've had tremendous, stupendous growth over the last five years. And I'm just curious to hear from you, what is supercharging this?[00:01:51] Kory: Over the last five years, we've grown our stock price. 1, 567 percent to be exact, [00:02:00] making us the number one performing stock on the New York Stock Exchange out of 1, 600. and 15 companies. So I think that definitely deserves your tremendous stupendous.[00:02:11] Damian: Okay, that's good. That's good. And what do you think, if you had to put your finger on two or three factors, what is it that is driving this upward, curve, as it were?[00:02:24] Kory: There's quite a few things and in the essence of time, I'll distill it to the three I think are most important. But for your audience, I think it's really important to go back to the beginning to understand the ethos of the brand, because it's the ethos that powers the purpose that powers the people, That power the performance.[00:02:42] So if you go back to the origins of elf in 2004, let's remember at this time Facebook hadn't launched yet. iPhones don't exist. Imagine this. Can you wrap your heads around that?[00:02:56] And So so we're back in the dark ages folks [00:03:00] and our founders dreamt up the impossible and made it happen. So they had this crazy idea that they could create premium quality cosmetics And sell it for one dollar over the internet.[00:03:13] So everybody told them, first and foremost, you cannot create premium quality cosmetics and sell it for a dollar. That's impossible. Second, you certainly can't sell color cosmetics over the internet. And third, even if you figure it out how to do number one and number two, you'll never make this a profitable business.[00:03:30] And aren't we glad that our founders disrupted from day one. So they have this renegade spirit, this bias for action, this quest to do the impossible.[00:03:42] One is our core value proposition, our very unique ability to deliver premium quality cosmetics at a jaw dropping value. The second is our powerhouse innovation,[00:03:55] And then the third is our disruptive marketing engine.[00:03:58] So our core value, [00:04:00] proposition, our powerhouse innovation and our disruptive marketing engine are definitely the drivers of our last 20 consecutive quarters of growth.[00:04:08][00:04:09] Ilyse: I'm curious about your out of box marketing because you guys are known for that. You really are. how did you cultivate this approach when you came on board as cMO?[00:04:20] Kory: at that time, there were some major shifts happening in the company.[00:04:25] So, Every company goes through various stages of growth, especially in a 20 year history. And the stage that I had walked into was a transformation from investing in retail. into marketing. marketing and digital, so when I started the company in at the onset of 2019, we were investing 7%. Of net sales into marketing and digital. Fast forward. We are now up to 24%. So you can see that there's a big investment in the power of the brand and building brand equity and building Brand [00:05:00] evangelism and all the things that we've been able to do over time.[00:05:02] So we see that as an enormous responsibility to make their time worthwhile.[00:05:08] It's interesting you call yourself an entertainment company. Or you see yourself as an entertainment company. And I would assume like The new digital channels that you play in have really helped you become such a company in this day and age, especially if you're selling something to consumers online, in stores, etc. To extent would you say digital channels have really opened up these possibilities to you? And I guess, channels do you like playing in the best?[00:05:45] We love all our channels equally, right? It's like our children. We love all our products. We love all our channels. I see all of our channels as learning opportunities. And the most important thing to remember is that they're all there to teach you [00:06:00] something different. And even if it's the same person who's coming to see you on Instagram and TikTok, they're actually on each platform for a different reason. So it's critical that we understand what is unique about the platform itself and what is unique about the reason that the person is coming to the platform. And that gives us a unique set of experiences and learnings.[00:06:26] So I think you see the pattern here that every time. We enter into a new platform. We go in with a beginner's mindset. We ask ourselves, how do we create something that is going to add a tremendous amount of value to the people that are here on the platform at the intersection of what it is that we do great. So it's really always this trifecta of beauty, culture, and entertainment. And we're bringing the best of all three to the communities on each platform.[00:06:56] Obviously you're known for your social media strategy, like [00:07:00] with this partnership with Liquid Death, but this year you also ran a national Super Bowl ad for the first time, which is always exciting for the first time for a brand. this one featured Judge Judy and cast members from Suits. So a little nostalgic on one hand. Can you talk about the strategy here? You obviously went into the humor category. What was the thinking behind this Super Bowl ad?[00:07:27] So there's this big conversation in the beauty space about dupes and your audience can't see me, but I'm making quotes because that has really ignited this entire conversation about people talking to each other about judging for all sorts of things in, the beauty space. So we started to see this conversation really take off, especially around price and people judging each other for, paying for overpriced makeup. So then we looked at what was happening in culture and [00:08:00] entertainment, and there was courtroom drama taking off everywhere.[00:08:03] Suits had its best year of viewership. Judge Judy was the number one program on Amazon Freeview. You had all things happening with Ronald from jury duty. so it was just this incredible cultural moment of all this courtroom drama coming together. And we said, well, that's pretty outstanding.[00:08:23] There's a lot of drama about judging and makeup injustice happening in the beauty world, and there's this incredible moment of courtroom drama happening over here. So once we tuned into both of those things, then we said, Okay, now let's put our head in the[00:08:38] stars and dream what could be possible. And only e.l.f. could dream big enough to say, what if we actually got the cast of suits? What if we actually went and got them? Judge Judy, what if we actually went and got Ronald and put him in our jury box? And these are really big lofty dreams, and that's how we love to operate at e.l.f.[00:08:59] [00:09:00] So that was our first national spot, which we decided to do after we tested the year prior with a regional spot. And when we had done the regional spot the year prior, it had broken every record we could have ever imagined, which was the signal that we needed to tell us to lean in even harder.[00:09:23] Ilyse: And if I'm not mistaken, that one also had some star power in it with Jennifer Coolidge. One of my favorite actresses[00:09:31] Kory: major stars of that campaign, Jennifer Coolidge and Power Grip Primer.[00:09:36] Ilyse: Yeah. What did you guys learn from the regional ad, specifically, if there are any lessons?[00:09:41] Kory: So we had never done a TV spot before at that time. So to your earlier point, we grew up in digital or a digital native brand. When we started to invest larger dollars into marketing and digital, we expanded all of our digital platforms. [00:10:00] First, we learned all about creating short form, medium form and even longer form entertainment content. So we had been building that muscle over time, and we also saw that our awareness numbers were rising and we wanted to fuel the awareness and open the aperture to more audiences and expose more people to the magic of Elf. we decided to take Jennifer Coolidge and Power Grip Primer to the biggest stage that there is, which is the big game. And our hypothesis was on that particular stage, women were being underserved. you have at that time 115 million people viewing the big game, of which 75 percent said the number one thing that they like about Super Bowl Sunday is The commercials. So you have a highly engaged audience and 50% of that audience is women.[00:10:58] So by every metric, it [00:11:00] was massively successful.[00:11:02] Ilyse: That is very interesting. Especially because this year, women's sports, women's live sports, are definitely, on the upswing. And there's, it seems to be, like, more brands want to partake, more, networks want to show women's sports, more streaming, platforms want to show women's live sports.[00:11:24] curious. If you intend to partake in any like women's specific sports in the future and how might that impact the e. l. f. brand?[00:11:37] Kory: We're very excited about women in sports, and we've been in the arena for quite some time, and we believe very strongly in supporting This initiative and empowering young women to not only engage in sports, but also stay in sports. I don't remember the exact stat off the top of my head, but there is a large amount [00:12:00] of young girls who drop out of sports at a very young age, and we really want to work together with powerful.[00:12:07] Women in sports to change that. So we've actually been working together with Billie Jean King, who is an extraordinary legend not only in tennis, but in multiple sports as well as in women's equality at large and Working together with her has been incredible. We're supporting her women's National Hockey League And when you start to get around all of these young women and watch their, watch them unleash their incredible talents and support them along their journey, it's real fuel to want to go further and deeper.[00:12:45] We're also, we also worked last year with Catherine Legg, who's a female driver at the Indy 500. So there's a lot of bold. Disruptors like a Billie Jean King, like a Katherine Legg, that [00:13:00] we will continue to work with to empower women in sports.[00:13:05] Damian: One thing you said earlier that was really interesting to me is that you really listen in to your community. And, when you launch initiatives like this, is this, do you see this as part of a sort of feedback loop that you tap into? And I'd just be curious to hear more about that audience first approach and that whole concept of listening.[00:13:24] Because I haven't heard that from every marketer.[00:13:27] Kory: I think it's fundamental and it's a service approach. And as I said earlier, when you're a brand of the people, by the people, for the people, you have to create with the people. This is their brand, not mine. I'm here to steward it for them. I'm here to shape it with them. So the only way I can do that is by listening very intently.[00:13:47] And a lot of people in my position rely on reports. I've seen reports. I don't want to have a relationship with reports. I want to have a relationship with people. So as the CMO of the [00:14:00] company, I'm probably more connected to our audience than anybody in our company. And the reason I do that is to make sure that they're with me in every room I go into, whether it's the boardroom, or the C suite, or every meeting, I am there as a representative of them.[00:14:17] And again, I take this back to, they're citizens and I'm their representative. And I'm here to legislate on their behalf.[00:14:26] Another thing that I do is I go on TikTok lives And have direct conversations with them, especially if something surfaces. So for example, it was surfaced to us that our community was very unhappy that we had taken one of our limited edition collections off the market. And that was called Jelly Pop.[00:14:45] It was a watermelon infused. And I was really curious about that because we had replaced it with Power Grip Primer and the reason we did that is very similar formula. The reason we did that is because we heard a lot of people say that they [00:15:00] didn't want to have fragrance in it. So we're like, okay, well, why don't we make it unscented? They love the sticky texture. We'll create this thing called Power Grip Primer and, it was wildly successful. But we still had this undercurrent. No matter what post we did, people were like, bring back Jelly Peps. Primer and I'm like, I need to understand more about this. So I went on a TikTok live to understand what is it that you don't have that you want and We really got under the hood to understand that it was an obsession with the texture, the format, and the scent.[00:15:32] They wanted it pink and they wanted it watermelon. So, so once I found that out, I said, I, really appreciate you. Thank you for. Sharing your vote with me on what it is that you want next. Well, now you're going to need to come on a journey with me because it takes a lot to move a product through an organization.[00:15:50] So I took our head of innovation and he was the next tech talk live, then our head of operations, our CFO. And then if they were convincing enough, which they were, they finally [00:16:00] got to the CEO. So our CEO came on tech talk live for our community to convince him to bring back jelly pop primer. And he folded in like 60 seconds. he saw the exclamation points, the capital letters, the, the nonstop thread, there was like 5, 000 people and they were all like, bring back jelly beans. It's okay. I'll bring it back over into 60 seconds. Done. So I think you get, I tell you that story because I think it gives you a unique flavor of how committed our organization is to the people we serve.[00:16:31] Our CFO and our CEO are bringing our community to those Conversations because they're directly involved with them and they have their own stories to tell about the magic of that community.[00:16:42] So, they're basically recognizing that they are a citizen of our brand.[00:16:49] Damian: I love the, the way you talk about citizens of, the brand. it's a really interesting way of looking at the fan base, the customer base, or however you [00:17:00] would, [00:17:00] describe it[00:17:00] Kory: Yeah, I don't love the word customer or consumer, because it signifies that you're only here to buy from us versus being a part of the thing that we're doing. And what I love about Citizen Is it showcases that you have a vote, that you have a vested interest and a deciding power in the thing that we're actually doing.[00:17:23] And I don't find any other word that captures that in the same way. So they are citizens of e.l.f. and they do have a voice and they do contribute to everything that we do. [00:17:38] Ilyse: about that citizen journey, there is quite a relationship between e commerce and in store experiences for you guys. How do. you leverage? your online audiences and then follow those citizens from app to store.[00:17:56] Kory: What's really important for us is to recognize that it all [00:18:00] needs to be fluid. So if you think about all of the possible touch points, some people are on 100 touch points, some people are on 10, some people are on 1. The important part is for them, it's all one world. They're seamlessly going from Our Roblox game to the floor of Target to our app to our website.[00:18:25] So what we need to do is make sure that we have an organization that [00:18:29] reflects that level of fluidity and that we don't have any friction points between those zones. So everything that we do has to be fluidly integrated across every touch point. So if we think about corpse paint, for example, we light up everything 360.[00:18:47] It's going to go. Live on our website live on our app. We're going to make sure that there are, uh, you know, social across all of our social channels. We're going to light up our live stream and we had rooms [00:19:00] in Roblox. So we basically see this as every time we turn on an activation, we turn on every switch across our entire ecosystem so that wherever you're interacting with our brand, you're finding a consistent thread throughout.[00:19:18] what are your priorities for 2024? What would you say is your guiding principle?[00:19:24] We go where our community takes us. And if I just take you on a quick journey of that, we didn't end up on TikTok in 2019 by accident. There was a hashtag of cosmetics that we didn't create that we had nothing to do with that three and a half million people were showing up to every day, which was basically them calling for us to be there.[00:19:46] We're hearing a lot that they want more from us in that regard. We actually did a pep talk series where it was all about these mini confidence boosts that we could bring to women. So [00:20:00] what's most important for me is not me making a decision or our teams making a decision about where we should go next, but rather going where our community guides us.[00:20:11] So you're going to continue to see us. On that path?[00:20:15] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.[00:20:20] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.[00:20:26] Damian: And remember, I'm Damian.[00:20:28] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse.[00:20:30] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review.[00:20:35] Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

ADT’s EVP and CMO DeLu Jackson joins The Current Podcast to discuss how the company’s partnership with Major League Baseball’s Miami Marlins reinforces the impact of live sports. Jackson also touches on why the marketing funnel isn’t so much a funnel anymore as it is an “infinity loop.” Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler.[00:00:02] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffering. And[00:00:03] Damian: welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:00:06] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with DeLu Jackson, EVP and CMO of ADT. [00:00:12] Damian: The home security's brand synonymous with its blue octagon logo, seen on front lawns and in windows across the United States, is turning 150 years old this August.[00:00:28] In all those years, ADT has seen its customers needs fluctuate, technology has given more power to individuals, and the inconsistent housing market is turning out more renters than owners.[00:00:40] Damian: Delu starts out by telling us what messaging the brand is leaning into as it reaches a new milestone [00:00:49] Ilyse: DeLu, ADT is celebrating its 150th birthday in August. That little blue hexagon basically has been known for a long time and signs in front of front [00:01:00] yards and windows across America.[00:01:02] How has the brand continued to evolve and how is the brand leaning into new messaging?[00:01:15] DeLu: you know, monumental 150th birthday. And for us, that's a really great testament as much to all the things we've accomplished in that 150 years. But more importantly, what it means for the next 150 years, because all of that's been driven by a consistent commitment to innovation, insecurity, safety and now even smart home.[00:01:38] So it's been the evolution of the definition of what it means to be safe, protected and connected. and for all of our history, we've been focused on making sure that we're the leader and providing that to our, customers. [00:01:54] Ilyse: and I understand there's even like a new campaign coming out soon? [00:01:57] DeLu: Oh, yeah. So part of this [00:02:00] innovation and this even history of it is recognizing that from our consumers always that, every second counts, right? That when we think about what we're doing, there's this tension between, living your life to the fullest[00:02:14] and having the opportunity to travel and do amazing things because the things that you care about are protected.[00:02:21] And so this idea that when every second counts, you can count on ADT and really always have is really exciting for us,[00:02:29] internally And externally. [00:02:31] It's such a Great manifestation of what we've always been and what we aspire to provide, going forward. [00:02:40] Ilyse: On that note, I remember even like five years ago I wrote a piece for Ad Age about how the brand underwent a marketing transformation to drive the message home that ADT is much more than a home security provider. With your smart home integration and your mobile security options for small and large businesses.[00:03:00][00:03:00] How has that, moved the needle forward. [00:03:02] What would you say is the perception of the brand today? [00:03:05] DeLu: say the perceptions continue to evolve and I'd say that the one great thing is that the foundational relevance of safety and security are still  super high for so many consumers. It's what they need. And as the space has evolved to  be more smart home and connected devices and, video and cameras, we've continued to provide that and customers are programming and our messaging have continued to reinforce that. with partnerships and with our continued platform innovation to provide those capabilities. So it's been a big part of our continued innovation and commitment to innovation for safety and security. [00:03:46] Damian: One of the things that's really interesting to me is your approach to ads in the campaigns that you launch. and I know that in 2023 switched from sort of more fearful or scary approach to a humorous [00:04:00] one. And I'm just wondering, you mentioned that tension between living your life to the fullest and also looking after things that matter.[00:04:06] Could you talk a little bit about that tension and how it informs [00:04:10] your[00:04:10] campaigns. [00:04:11] DeLu: I think it's really a really important one that we called the FUD or fear, uncertainty and doubt. And the YOLO, you only live once, and that's always been the tension that we see that the things that we protect customers from versus the things we protect them for. And we saw the insight that, That people really, lean into and get emotional about the things we protect them for.[00:04:40] And it really shows the value we create [00:04:42] when we demonstrate that, and we don't have to scare people to do that. We just need to demonstrate that we are really [00:04:49] there to take care of those things. And if we're there and in place taking care of those[00:04:53] things, then you can do some amazing things and live your life to the fullest.[00:04:57] And that's really, what our customers,[00:05:00] celebrate. And that's really [00:05:01] neat for us to know that we play a critical role[00:05:04] Damian: That's, that's fascinating. And do you have any sort of specific examples of how, customers have shared those things that ADT has afforded them, insight into their best lives [00:05:17] as it were.[00:05:18] DeLu: Oh, really fascinating is, [00:05:21] one of our big partners, looked on, just did web search and we looked at all of these great images of what people were doing with our signs in the background. So celebrating birthdays, celebrating my, first new business as an [00:05:36] entrepreneur, Celebrating graduations.[00:05:40] we had a video of a customer putting an alligator in a trash can in his front yard.[00:05:45] And that sign is there. [00:05:47] Sometimes it's in the background, sometimes it's in the forefront. But it's, been a part of all these big moments. and that's really interesting because it's just there and alive, out in the world every[00:06:00][00:06:00] Damian: Yeah. It's amazing. The power of that logo, actually, it's not something As prominent as, say, the Golden Arches. and at the same time, when you. think about it, it is ubiquitous. you see it everywhere, once you start [00:06:11] noticing it. [00:06:13] DeLu: like you said, if you go through neighborhoods and you start to really pay attention to it, you see how many places it's there, on a window, in a yard, on a business. [00:06:23] it is so iconic, and so [00:06:26] ever present.[00:06:27] Damian: Eilidh just mentioned that five years ago she was writing about ADT. And one thing that just occurred to me when she said that is in the last five years we've seen tech, undergo especially ad tech, undergo a kind of boom. And I'm interested to know how that has influenced the way you[00:06:44] approach your marketing,[00:06:47] DeLu: it really speaks to the omni channel nature of marketing. It's not one or the other, where our sales motion historically had been,[00:06:57] very much in the home,[00:06:59] [00:07:00] physical interactions and interactions with customers. The digital capabilities in terms of information presentation, information gathering, research, And even purchasing online and being able to buy online and even install it yourself.[00:07:15] All of that has transformed,[00:07:18] consumers engage with us even purchase. So we're present in all those channels now and make sure that we provide the right information based on the context of those channels. So it's been exciting, in terms of the different ways to reach consumers and connect with, their, evolving needs for safety[00:07:41] Ilyse: Speaking about your marketing, ADT has shifted from having an in house agency to now going back to an external partner. What basically inspired that shift back? [00:07:54] DeLu: Yeah, I'd say it's an evolution, right? So a few years ago had an opportunity to [00:08:00] hire a lot of great talent and bring them in house.[00:08:03] of build internal capabilities time we're really, leading capabilities as that continued to involve and partners start to bring new ideas. We started to add them to the roster[00:08:14] and for initiatives and projects. And as we move forward, they start to [00:08:18] bring bigger ideas and just through evolution and growth, our teams have added more of those back to our roster and expanded the team size. So now when you look up. it's more of an evolution than a revolution. We look up and we have a great internal team that drives certain capabilities. And then we've supplemented that With some leading partners just so that we can continue to innovate and deliver, on our customer expectations. [00:08:43] Ilyse: That is interesting. are there any specific channels that you perhaps are just increasing spend and time and effort on?[00:08:54] DeLu: Yeah, probably the one that's growing most is connected TV and streaming, you know, as more people go there, [00:09:00] but social is increasing as people consume more information YouTube, right? Those are continuing to grow because when we think about some people, when they purchase these types of solutions, they need more information.[00:09:12] And sometimes advertising creates interest, but we have to go other places to find, to make the purchase decision or find all the collective information. So I would say is as much, [00:09:22] communicating effectively as it is advertising and marketing. It's really the expansion of communicating effectively across all of those channels. I think that's a really[00:09:31] important distinction for us because we think about it as part of our communication strategy or go to market strategy, not simply what we would call marketing. It's more comprehensive. [00:09:42] Yeah, it makes a lot of sense that is your go to market strategy, though, tied to, in some ways, the health of the housing market, because presumably, you're looking to reach people who are buying homes, setting up homes. absolutely. people move, relocate or, [00:10:00] remodel homes, the[00:10:02] self improvement craze, all of those things, those are, moments that are identified where people make the decision to upgrade a system, add a system, upgrade a system, or reactivate a system. So we definitely, are very present in those activities, online and in physical, channels.[00:10:18] we've also seen things like, the growth in renters. So we have a, DIY or ADT self set up product. We also work in the multifamily space, where, more users, or builders and, property [00:10:31] managers can support the, units and the, renters in those units. Again, Different needs, different need states, and leading brands like ADT are providing more options for consumers to protect[00:10:45] Damian: That's interesting what you said about renters and the Renters leaning into using the self setup. you say a little bit more about that? What's the potential for that market right now? [00:11:00][00:11:06] DeLu: DIY solutions gives people the opportunity to, you Create more affordable solutions as well as they're portable, right? We can take them with me. and so, it's just part of the evolution of the nature of security, how technology has changed it and made it more accessible and more available to more people.[00:11:26] So it's not just when you're in a home you own, it's in, The home that's yours, or what you call home, and that expanded portfolio has allowed us to provide protection to more families, small businesses, and again, more people.[00:11:43] Ilyse: Now, when it comes to generational differences between homeowners and renters, how do you look at those different subsets of consumers and target to them effectively across channels? [00:11:58] DeLu: Interesting, because we look at the need state [00:12:00] and the use cases. We call them demand spaces. And really, it's sort of life stage and there's some key things, right?[00:12:07] How often do I relocate? Younger audiences tend to move more, right? Some even current[00:12:12] generations just move more in general than historically. Then you have more stable where people buy a place and they stay in a place a long time. They have slightly different characteristics. But interesting thing When you're in the business for 150 years, we've been through so many generations [00:12:28] of families who have started with us, grown up with us, grown old with us and pass it on to the [00:12:34] next generation. So that's again, really interesting dynamic that we've seen over all those [00:12:40] decades of presence, that those, those behaviors are really about life stage, affordability, and then. Portability and mobility, relative to those, generations. And so we look at all of those signals to provide solutions that work for consumers across those need states. [00:12:59] Damian: it's very interesting [00:13:00] that there's a sort of generational handing down of the brand. And I hadn't even considered that in, the context of security. [00:13:08] DeLu: We have so many people who would tell us that I grew up with it. was always there. And it was that, thing that I needed when I needed something, I knew to push the button, or I knew to call, or I knew how to set it, and I remember some of my first memories of setting it, when I'm home, or I'm watching a little brother or a cousin, and so it's a really fascinating, role it's played in so many lives for so and there's just many of those, insights [00:13:37] Ilyse: Now, how do you go about measuring the impacts of the campaign investments that you are making? [00:13:44] DeLu: Yeah, we use a number of but I think what's really interesting for our team is because we're a direct seller, we have the ability to measure, our investments right down to not just the sale, but to the installation.[00:13:57] we can look in time at all of our investments in [00:14:00] our media mix and understand when we invest, have something in or out, or we change campaign or content, What's the impact through the entire funnel?[00:14:09] And I'm fortunate to have a great team from advanced analytics to performance measurement that works together every day with our teams to literally measure that and look at the things that are happening and changing by the day over time. So we have a really interesting, rich body of insight to help us understand, the impact of every investment. [00:14:30] Ilyse: one thing with omni channel environments is that a lot of marketers are saying, basically, that with, like, CTV and, commerce, almost like the funnel is collapsing in a sense. what would you say to that? [00:14:44] DeLu: I would say it's less of a funnel than a little bit of an infinity loop, right? People are gathering information.[00:14:52] Pre, during, post, even after they purchase, they continue to gather information, reaffirm, and right, [00:15:00] optimize their choices. So I think it's really, it's not a funnel that kind of goes to the bottom and people stop.[00:15:07] I think people just continue to, consume information and insights. so I think we kind of have to be always on and again, omnipresent to meet those[00:15:18] Damian: And speaking of omnipresent and this is a bit of a pivot, but I know you partnered last year with, Miami Marlins in a multi year deal. I'm curious to hear from you, On why sports sponsorships are part of your strategy. [00:15:32] DeLu: Yeah, this was a really exciting one for us. And part of it was, beyond just sports sponsorships. This was the first time that they were doing, branded, advertising on major league baseball uniforms. What we liked about it was the context. And if you go to the stadium, you'll see when you're around third base, it says, Safe at Home.[00:15:52] And when they score a run, it lights up and it says safe at home brought so really neat, right? Some people were thinking it was [00:16:00] really about impressions, right? How much visibility will the, brand visible? That's a really important one. But what we saw was this great context, safe at home.[00:16:10] It's also a great family venue. It's great for employees. It's great for, And by the way, they play 81 games at home and 81 games on the road. So the brand travels. and then lastly, I would say really cool with the partnership, beyond the community work we do and the development of, of our philanthropy and, giving kids safe places and safe spaces to, grow up and learn sports and develop.[00:16:36] we also, have the patches on both arms. So when you look at visibility, it's visible for most of the game, because if you're, a right handed batter, it's on the left sleeve. And if it's on the left hand, it's on the right sleeve. Same with the pictures so that the brand is ever present. And finally, I'd say what I loved about it is, as in the stands or on the road talk about it, they [00:17:00] knew the context.[00:17:01] They said, well, they must need extra protection. And it's like, they understand context in which we operate. And I really love that is that it wasn't just a brand that was there. It was a brand that made sense being there.[00:17:17] what was really great about that. I love building on that is that when we think about media and the concept of media, this was a big part of it. we use comparisons to what are the number of impressions, media impressions and back to context, contextual delivery of our messaging with these partnerships and each of them gave us the opportunity to get, a large amounts of media and visibility for the brand in a very specific context that reinforces the things that we want to home or safety [00:18:00] help communities stay safe and these are So when you look at that from a pure media perspective, live sports. And sports in general have, broad reach audiences. they have sequentially different audiences based on events and locations. And so give us a lot of great reach, uh, and in some cases great frequency, as I described with, baseball and, on the road.[00:18:25] We also look at the media markets. Where do they play? You know, so really interesting when you think about it in the context of media versus just, as an event, impressions. worked environments. of [00:19:00] Sure. it really is the evolution you described I caught the tail of the digital revolution, if you will, in marketing. Where as technology started to transform the way we go to market, thought about consumers, thought about the paces which we operate. and the convergence of technology and what we call traditional marketing, right?[00:19:31] Digital used to be a unique thing that's set between IT and marketing. And then, as you said, they continue to converge in terms of the way consumers engage with those spaces. So then the teams started to come together. And I've been fortunate to have opportunities to work across those different disciplines And bring those things together for organizations who were going through those transformations and help individuals of all help teams of all and help organizations evolve to [00:20:00] bring those things together.[00:20:01] So my career has been one of sort of the brands you mentioned. amazing organization transformations around the world and really been, an exciting time to be part of marketing. [00:20:13] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay[00:20:18] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesey and Sydney Cairns.[00:20:25] Damian: And remember, I'm Damian.[00:20:27] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse.[00:20:28] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review.[00:20:32] Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Crunch Fitness' CMO, Chad Waetzig joins The Current Podcast to explore how Crunch is developing their on-demand workout streaming app, how they're leaning into performance marketing versus brand-building and why digital media is the best way to reach its gymgoers. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. [00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffering. [00:00:03] Damian: And welcome to this edition of the current [00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Chad Waitzig, the CMO of Crunch Fitness, who leads the brand's marketing and communication efforts for its gym locations all over the world.[00:00:17] Damian: Headquartered in New York City, Crunch serves 2. 5 million members with over 460 gyms worldwide and continues to expand in the U. S. and around the globe.[00:00:28] While Crunch has built a community of fitness enthusiasts at its physical locations, it has also been on a mission of expanding its reach on digital.[00:00:37] We start by asking Chad about how he'd characterize the gym's marketing goals.[00:00:43] Ilyse: so Chad, how would you characterize the marketing mission for Crunch?[00:00:48] Chad: It's really important for us, to both build comprehension around what the crunch brand experience is.[00:01:05] And we think we've got a pretty unique offering in the high value, low price space and in fitness, but it's also to drive leads and it's to fill that, consumer funnel, with folks who are interested in exploring a fitness workout, And building that lead base so that our franchisees, our partners in our marketing journey, can invite them into the gym, give them a free trial, and encourage them to join and continue their fitness journey with us.[00:01:32] so as we think about what we do day in and day out, I'd say that, 80 percent of what we do is focused on how can we introduce the brand to more people and drive leads into the system.[00:01:41] Damian: Now, can you talk about your latest campaign and how that works? I know you're talking about, a kind of big campaign, but you're also then trying to target local gyms and gym spaces and demographics. Can you talk about how that relationship works?[00:01:54] what about the new campaign? Feel good, not bad? [00:01:57] Chad: Yeah. Yeah. So we're, really excited about feel good. [00:02:00] Not bad. we launched the campaign on December the 26th, which is, basically the start of our year, immediately after Christmas. and the, conceit or the gestalt of the campaign is to. recognize that as a country, we've gone through a lot of bad stuff, and, there's a lot of bad in the world, and we don't want to focus on the bad in the world, but we know that it's out there and  how do we, recognize that a way to combat that is to feel good, and to feel good.[00:02:31] You can do that through working out. So the whole campaign is focused on this idea of telling a story about the bad things that happen through silly, humorous, metaphors, banging your head on a drawer, getting stuck in a revolving door, waking up in the desert on a camping trip with a snake.[00:02:52] Attached to your face, really absurd, silly things as a metaphor for the bad in the world, and that through working out and through [00:03:00] working out at crunch, you can get those endorphin rushes. you can escape from the world. You can forget all the bad that's out there and really focus on yourself.[00:03:07] You can really lose yourself at crunch. so that's, the gestalt behind the campaign or the, idea behind the campaign. Now, the way we execute that campaign, and we do it in partnership with our franchisees, is through a mix of brand marketing, performance marketing, and retail marketing. And so we've designed, creative assets that kind of take you through that entire journey, whether it's television, radio, direct mail, or digital marketing assets, that really tell that story in a layered way as a consumer moves through the journey.[00:03:41] Damian: Yeah, that's interesting. now you mentioned the campaign, the Feel Good, Not Bad campaign is one that really dives into humor to convey how fitness can be fun. We recently had on this podcast, the CEO of BBDO, Andrew Robertson, who talked about the importance of funny ads and why they're so important.[00:03:59] [00:04:00] To building a brand's identity. I just wanted to get your thoughts on that. and why is Funny the right fit for you?[00:04:07] Chad: Yeah, first of all, I would agree with his assessment. And, at our heart, we're storytellers, right? All marketers are storytellers, and we're telling the story of our brand and our business. And humor, leveraging humor, is one way to tell that story in a way that we think breaks through the clutter.[00:04:26] We're a gym for goodness sakes, right? We're a place where people come to, to get better. whether that's more, more flexible, whether that's to build endurance, whether that's to lose weight, whether that's to gain strength and muscle, but we also don't take ourselves too seriously. And so we think that, our no judgments philosophy, the way we approach our members and the way we approach our experience, it really lends itself well to humor.[00:04:50] But the other thing to keep in mind too, is that. Humor can work in almost any business. think about insurance. 20 years ago, if you had said, we're going to use humor to tell [00:05:00] the insurance story, people would have thought you were crazy. Maybe it's more than 20 years now, but, Geico really broke through the clutter and now look at everybody in that category, right?[00:05:08] They all leverage humor for something that is not a very funny product. our product isn't funny, but our product and our experience is fun. And we think humor helps us tell that story. [00:05:19] Ilyse: Now here we talk a lot about digital channels, obviously, programmatic, CTV, and, there's a Common philosophy or really it's just a fact at this point that, that's a good way to reach like younger consumers. is that what you are finding? Are you trying to reach millennials and Gen Zers specifically?[00:05:44] ​Or are you looking at whole cohorts of people? Consumers, what is your approach?[00:05:50] Chad: our core consumer is somebody that we call young strong on social, they are our north star. They're the group that we [00:06:00] focus on, for crunch, about a quarter of our member base is made up of. Of people 18 to 24, about a third of our member base are members 25 to 34, so the majority of our members are in that 18 to 34 age range, and that's our young, strong and social group.[00:06:16] Now, we run, we have, campaigns available for our network, to target seniors, active seniors. boomers, Gen, Gen Xers like me, but really our focus is on the 18 to 34 and we do find that digital media channels, are really the best way to reach that audience, right? They, by and large, they're not cable TV subscribers.[00:06:39] they watch a lot of YouTube. They're on social media. and we find that, one of the best ways for us to build awareness is either through CTV, or through YouTube. Uh, and those are the two channels where we are dominant.[00:06:52] Ilyse: And I know you've also spoken about, TV itself too, a little bit. How has like this omni [00:07:00] channel like approach really benefited your brand?[00:07:04] Chad: Yeah, for us, it's been a journey. today we've got 460 gyms and about 2. 7 million members, and we're celebrating our 35th anniversary, but, we're still a small business. when I joined Crunch seven years ago, we had about 125 locations and, obviously we were significantly smaller.[00:07:21] So our dollars, We had to make a strategic choice back then, and our strategic choice was to invest in performance marketing almost exclusively at the expense of brand marketing. Now that we've grown, and now that we're bigger, and we have the, The resources available to us the critical mass. We have found that the omni channel approach for us has paid off in spades.[00:07:46] Our brand awareness has tripled in the last three years, whether that's aided or unaided. And we find that then drives. more consumers to consider us. Our consideration is higher, which then [00:08:00] leads to greater lead production, and greater sales. And, the brand doesn't do it alone.[00:08:05] Our franchisees play a big role in that, but if we had not made that strategic shift to really focus on the Omni channel, I don't think our results would be as strong as they are today.[00:08:17] Ilyse: And today, are you mostly now looking at consumer retention or learning new members to join? It does seem, we talk a lot about streaming wars, but it does seem like there's quite a lot of gym wars out there now.[00:08:31] Chad: Yeah, you know, the fitness industry is, really an interesting one. It is competitive. so today about one in five Americans belongs to a gym, a health club, the Y, or a boutique studio. Now, that number 10, 15 years ago was probably closer to 15%, 14%. The category itself is growing.[00:08:51] So when, crunch wins, the whole category wins when our competitors, when the category wins, cause we are growing the category, but we do compete [00:09:00] for a lot of the same folks, people do switch gyms, they break up with their old gym, they, join a new gym. and so it is a mix for us on the acquisition side.[00:09:09] To both bring new people into the category that maybe are just considering a gym for the very first time, but we're also trying to steal members from other clubs that without a doubt, and our competition would probably say the same. So in answer to your bigger question, how do we think about it is about retention is about acquisition.[00:09:27] It really is both. [00:09:29] Damian: It's interesting. you know, we did use the analogy of streaming, but there's a lot of churn in streaming. you turn off your subscription for one and then you turn it on for another. We just had some data recently that said, I think 30 percent of people who cancel return within a few months to the channel.[00:09:43] So, it's an interesting game, I guess. Yeah,[00:09:49] Chad: of our biggest sources of leads. we very much, look at our former members as potential future members, and they do come back.[00:09:57] Ilyse: Very interesting. Yeah. And, speaking of [00:10:00] streaming, Crunch has its Crunch Plus platform and I know this was a big kind of trend overall, no matter what category you're in, during COVID and everything was to go digital, make sure your product is available where the people were, which is their living rooms at home.[00:10:18] and now it's a little more than a year old. and it obviously it built on what you had before, which is crunch live. Can you tell us how this has been performing and how you would describe the divide between people going in person to the gym and potentially those working out at home now?[00:10:38] Chad: Yeah, really great question. So you're right. We launched, crunch plus about a year ago, and we retired an old platform that we had that was called crunch live crunch live we were the first big box gym to have our own streaming workout product it launched way back in 2013, and it was browser based [00:11:00] only.[00:11:00] Ilyse: Way pre COVID before it was cool.[00:11:03] Chad: it was cool. Before it was cool. And during COVID, we saw our daily usage. Increased tenfold, with a fairly limited library of workouts. And so we clearly realized that we needed to reintroduce our streaming products and that's how we got to crunch plus. So now crunch plus is available on, just about every streaming device.[00:11:23] And, we couldn't be more pleased with where we are today. versus our launch. and just this year alone versus where we finished, in December of last year, our user base on the platform is up 47%.[00:11:39] we have over 600, Workouts available and we're adding the goal is to add one workout a day Either through live streaming or through pre recorded content to the library And we see crunch plus as really both a member benefit. So if you are a crunch member, You get access to crunch plus and basically a [00:12:00] 70 discount off the retail price.[00:12:02] it's incredibly Affordable. It's 1. 99 a month. and so for our members, it's a way to take that brand experience outside the four walls of the gym, whether they're wanting to work out at home, or maybe they travel a lot and they want to take it on the road, but they can also take it right back into the gym.[00:12:19] And so we've got workouts that, are on a treadmill or on a spin bike, or require the use of dumbbells and other equipment that you may not have at home, We've got in the crunch gym. And so we've really created this hybrid workout environment between in person in the gym and virtual on crunch plus, and now for our retail subscribers, those that are not crunch members. they pay 6. 99 a month. ​Again, it's, an incredible value relative to other products in the marketplace, and we think it's a great way to extend the brand and reach into markets where crunch doesn't exist yet. you can get crunch plus anywhere in the world. we've got 460 locations and [00:13:00] 360 of them are in the United States.[00:13:01] So we have lots of growth ahead of us in terms of our physical footprint, but we love where our digital footprint has taken us.[00:13:10] Damian: Yeah, that's a great move. I see people in the gym with, their smartphones looking at workouts and things. It makes sense for you to have that workout associated with, crunch, or the gym in question.[00:13:21] Chad: that's exactly right. and we really have only started to scratch the surface of where we can take this. I mean, one of the biggest challenges for new people who have never worked out in a gym before is the intimidation that they feel when they come to the gym. And, Most people think about the intimidation as being the, I've got to lose weight before I join the gym mentality, right? the body image concerns. But think about this. If you've never been to a gym before and you walk in the door, you are seeing all kinds of foreign alien equipment with pulleys and weights and pins and benches that articulate in different directions.[00:13:58] Where do I even [00:14:00] start? And what we think CrunchPlus is going to be great for is to give people who are completely new to the gym experience that introduction of how do I get started? What is the best workout for me? How does this piece of equipment actually work? If I'm concerned about how I might be perceived by others, let me watch this video and see how to set this up correctly.[00:14:21] so we're real excited about where we're going to continue to take this platform as it continues to grow and mature.[00:14:26] Damian: Yeah, that's a great point.[00:14:27] Ilyse: could have used that for sure. Yeah, you[00:14:29] Damian: and you see some of these, dudes in there, they're massive and they're making it look like, child's play. I'm like, what? This,[00:14:36] Chad: Right,[00:14:37] Damian: this is scary. Yeah. [00:14:41] Chad: The great thing about those guys, though, is if you ask them for help, they're going to jump right in and help you. they're very proud to share. Here's, how you do this.[00:14:48] Damian: Mm. It's a community, right? a fitness community.[00:14:52] Chad: absolutely. Absolutely. It's the community. In fact, we just did a recent member survey, new member survey, [00:15:00] and we found that 46 percent of our new members, have actually made new friends or founded a community at crunch just by joining and getting to the gym.[00:15:10] So we do think crunch is a great place to build community and our members that it's one of the reasons why they join. [00:15:17] Damian: And speaking of community, you have recently teamed up with Amazon One. Can you talk about how that partnership improves the membership experience for your customers?[00:15:28] Chad: we love our partnership with Amazon. it has gone really well. And they've been, as you can imagine, they're one of the largest companies in the world. They are very sophisticated in what they do. And, they've been a great partner to work with, for those, listeners that aren't familiar with the Amazon one product, it is a biometric device reads basically the palm of your hand.[00:15:49] It is a touchless device. You basically hover your palm over their reader and it identifies you uniquely. So apparently the palm of your hand is as unique as your fingerprint [00:16:00] or your retina and, Amazon has piloted this in, I believe it's being rolled out in Whole Foods.[00:16:07] I believe they have a partnership with Panera. And then they were piloting it in their own C Store concept for a while. We got together with Amazon to really be the first to bring it to the fitness environment. And the initial application or use case is to validate a member's entry into the gym. And What we found is I think a couple of things.[00:16:32] there's a back office business case which reduces fraud for us. So we don't have members sharing their key tag with their barcode with friends, right? Because now I only can get in with my palm. So that reduces, that concern. But from the perspective of our members, it shows that we're progressive.[00:16:57] We're forward thinking. we've got the latest [00:17:00] technology and we're bringing that into the environment. and we've seen adoption close to 80 percent in the locations where we've rolled it out. There are some folks that are still concerned about having their biometric data. read by Amazon, and we respect that and we'll still have the old way of scanning barcodes at the front desk, but for the vast majority of our members, it allows them to get into the gym quickly and get right to their workout.[00:17:24] Damian: Mm. That is fascinating. I actually didn't know about Amazon One, [00:17:27] Chad: Yeah, if you have a Whole Foods near you, next time you go to a Whole Foods, see if they've got it. it's how I use, it's how I check out at Whole Foods. it is faster than even, Apple Pay and Google Pay, I[00:17:39] Damian: Wow. Mm.[00:17:41] Chad: I think it's a pretty great service.[00:17:42] Damian: in general, when it comes to partnerships, how important are those kind of brand partnerships for Crunch?[00:17:49] Chad: they're really important and, you can think about partnerships for us, at least. We think about it in a couple of different levels. One is this kind of, Big strategic capability [00:18:00] enhancing partnership, which we have with Amazon, and we've got obviously have partnerships with some of the best, equipment manufacturers in the fitness space, right? Whether that's through life fitness or, TRX or the other, brands of the space, and we look at that as a way to enhance our member experience. We've got a really talented member experience team headed up by our chief experience officer, Molly long and, Molly and her team are thinking about ways that they can bring these kinds of big brand partnerships that are enablers.[00:18:34] To bear on the member experience. But on the marketing side, we also look at brand partnerships as a way to enhance your existing membership. So we do partnerships where we provide our members access to crunch only discounts. So we have one right now with Crocs where members can get a discount on Crocs shoes that's proving to be very popular.[00:18:58] ​And one of the ways in [00:19:00] which we talk about our membership, pricing with our members. and so one of the things that we like to say to prospective members is that if you take advantage of all the discounts that you can get through your crunch membership, all the retail discounts with our brand partners, your membership practically pays for itself.[00:19:14] And so we like to think that because it is a membership, you are part of a community, you are part of a gym, you are part of a club. If we can give value back to that member, it only makes that membership more valuable to them. So for us, those brand partnerships are super important.[00:19:30] Damian: we want to talk about first party data, of course, and we want to talk about that and how that informs some of your campaigns. And we assume, given that you have this great membership, global membership, it's not necessarily an issue for Crunch.[00:19:43] But how do you go about, leveraging that first party data to inform your marketing efforts? [00:19:49] Chad: so obviously our first party data even more so today than in years past is important to us and being able to leverage that data is [00:20:00] an important part of what we do both on the brand marketing side, but also are we work with our franchise partners for them to execute on their local marketing side.[00:20:08] Our media agency of record is USIM, and through USIM, we have an identity resolution initiative with TransUnion, where we enrich our first party data anonymously, with the TransUnion data, and we use that for audience building, lookalike audience building, Former member, audience building, et cetera, et cetera.[00:20:29] And a lot of that is used, through programmatic. it, it informs, what we do, in terms of, our targeting. the way in which we've structured our media approach, brand marketing happens through the Crunch marketing team. We also pick up search, on behalf of our network, just given the complexities of search and the ever changing, approach to paid search.[00:20:54] we. We feel like we're in a better position to manage that on behalf of our franchisees than asking our franchisees [00:21:00] to do that. Really everything in between is through our franchise partners and we have four brand approved agencies that they can choose to work with And we work with them To make sure that they have access to first party data so that they can also enrich that data and do first party, audience building, et cetera.[00:21:20] So for us, it's a critical component of what we do. And again, of, what we spend, I would say that, from. CTV all the way down through search, probably 90 percent of our spend across the network is digital.[00:21:36] Ilyse: Very awesome. I actually have a question about first party data. Are you able to glean more, say from Crunch Plus? Because people are tuning in and you're able to see, what kind of workouts they're choosing, what kind of, when, they are actually working out.[00:21:55] It must be very revealing, even more so than your regular, gym [00:22:00] customers that come in.[00:22:02] Chad: it's actually, that's actually a great question and it is true because obviously we control and manage the crunch plus platform of the 600 plus videos or workouts that we have. We can see what the viewership is. We can, we understand the view through rate on each of those. We know what each subscriber is watching and what kind of workouts they're doing and the frequency with which they're doing that.[00:22:26] and that's rich data that. We don't necessarily have easily accessed on the gym membership side. so from that standpoint, in terms of building out new workouts, as an example, we found that the 20 minute workout videos were the most popular in the group. And yet when we launched, we were launching with 30, 45 minute workout videos.[00:22:51] We pivoted very quickly to doing more over 20 minute workouts. And what we found is. The 20 minutes were actually too long based on view through [00:23:00] rates. So we launched a number of what we call quickies, right? They're five minute workouts and the viewership on those has skyrocketed. that's where we've leveraged that first party data to learn on the gym side, it's a little bit more challenging, but we're actually building out more of a, first party data set around.[00:23:16] utilization of the gym. We know when they check into the gym. If they book and take a group fitness class, we know that they're doing that because that's an online reservation system. we know when they buy a personal training package and when they take personal training sessions. And so the next level for us as an organization is to better activate that first party data so that we can do a better job on member retention.[00:23:40] upselling into higher tier memberships, and cross selling into other parts of our business.[00:23:45] Ilyse: And based off of that, and knowing that you guys are located in 41 states,[00:23:51] Chad: Yes.[00:23:52] Ilyse: you can probably tell me which states are the fittest in the U. S. in terms of attendance. I mean, I'm just [00:24:00] curious.[00:24:00] Damian: just[00:24:01] Chad: so that's a really good question.[00:24:04] Ilyse: New York, I know.[00:24:05] Chad: I, I can, I can say I can say that,[00:24:09] Ilyse: work out a lot here.[00:24:10] Chad: there are certain markets. the southeast is one of them where the number of visits per member is higher than the average. Obviously, we have an average, per month in the southeast. Really strong gym attendance.[00:24:26] I'm not going to say whether or not they're more fit than[00:24:29] Damian: Yeah, you can't know that.[00:24:31] Chad: but utilization does vary based on, based on market. I don't know how much of that is driven by weather, or how much that's driven by lifestyle. [00:24:39] Ilyse: who's the laziest[00:24:40] Chad: in New York City, New York City, we have really strong, really strong utilization of the gyms, best ever, better than pre pandemic.[00:24:48] Ilyse: Oh well.[00:24:49] Chad: but we've seen that across the board that the utilization of our gyms post pandemic has been at a higher level everywhere than versus than pre pandemic.[00:24:59] Ilyse: People [00:25:00] want to get out there again.[00:25:01] Chad: I think people want to get out there. Yep. I think they recognize that the role of fitness in, in relieving stress and anxiety is important.[00:25:08] Ilyse: How do you then tailor your messaging? Based off of location, especially if you're, talking to the fittest people in the U S versus the laziest,[00:25:18] Damian: people in[00:25:20] Chad: we wouldn't say that we're all about no judgments,[00:25:22] Damian: no, of course.[00:25:23] Chad: there, there is no one type, there is no one reason, there is no one way, for us at Crunch. but we do build out marketing assets that allow our franchisees, who are the closest To the member than we are here in the puzzle palace here in New York City, right in the ivory tower.[00:25:42] and we make sure that we provide assets that, if your club is really strong in group fitness classes, that we've got the assets for you there. If your gym is really big into strength training, which is virtually all gyms. Now we've got lots of strength training assets, or if you're into hit workouts, or if you're into [00:26:00] Kids Crunch babysitting is important because you've got a lot of younger families and they need to have child care when they come to the gym and work out and we allow our franchisees then to use those assets to tailor their marketing communications based on their local needs.[00:26:16] Damian: It's interesting. Now, you mentioned, maybe people in warmer climates and warmer states going to the gym maybe than others, but I don't know whether that holds true, but what I wanted to ask you about is what does the marketing calendar look like for a gym like Crunch? especially around key moments, we're here, A good third of the way into the year, but January's obviously got to be a big moment for gyms because everyone has that resolution to get fit again, New Year's resolutions, and then there's the summer, approaching, people think about, oh, I've got to be back on the beach, what should we do?[00:26:50] How do you strategize around those moments?[00:26:55] Chad: Yeah, there is certainly a seasonality to, to both visitation and [00:27:00] membership joins new members joining the gym. the first quarter of the year is the. The most important quarter of the year for us. it is our Black Friday and Cyber Monday and holiday season. and we do structure our spending accordingly, right?[00:27:14] So we'll heavy up in Q1, in the months later in the year when gym memberships aren't as, The demand isn't as high. We will adjust spending accordingly. So we do balance that out throughout the year. So we do marry up spend with demand. Within any given month, we will run a series of national promotions that our franchisees can opt into.[00:27:39] And they tend to be priced Price driven, because that's the category we're in, but we provide the support to the franchise network around the if they opt into that promotion to try to convert prospects in the system to becoming members. We do look at certain, events. So certainly we look at. New Year's resolutions, New [00:28:00] Year to you.[00:28:01] We look at spring break. We look at the beginning of the summer. We look at back to school. and then we look at the, to school is the last big hit when you begin to hit November and December, most consumers are really focused on holiday shopping, holiday parties, family get togethers, travel, Wrapping up their year end of their job if they're on a calendar or fiscal year, And then we start right over again on december 26th, and that's when people are like, okay, let's get back to the gym so we do take all of that into consideration but every month has a cycle and every quarter has a cycle and then obviously there's a cycle to the year[00:28:41] Ilyse: so there's obviously one of the biggest categories on social media is fitness. I would say there's so many fitness influencers out there these days.[00:28:52] To what extent do you share a kind of like common goal to get people to the gym? Do you then access and use [00:29:00] these social media personalities?[00:29:02] Chad: Yep. yeah, really good question. influencers in the fitness space are very important and we have worked with influencers. off and on over the past several years, we work with them today. And what we have found them to be most effective for us is around awareness building, introducing crunch to their audience.[00:29:26] we have tried to activate, and I'm using air quotes for those, listening, obviously, we've tried to activate those influencers to try to sell gym memberships. And we've not succeeded in that. I think their audiences see through that.[00:29:40] Ilyse: Hmm. Interesting.[00:29:42] Chad: And so for us, it's more about the authenticity of we want to invite the influencers into our gym.[00:29:47] We want them to get in a great workout. We want them to tell their story on that does more value for us. than them trying to sell a membership to their audience. And so we certainly work and we pay influencers [00:30:00] for some of that awareness building. But we also Work really hard to make sure that our member experience is an excellent experience for all of our members because we have influencers in our gym all the time that we may not even be aware that they're there and we want them.[00:30:18] We wanted to organically. Work its way through social media, and we've actually had some great success with that. And so the success comes from our fantastic operators on running a great gym on the influencers who are already members are just telling the crunch story for us. They're evangelists on. You really can't put a price on that.[00:30:41][00:30:41] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.[00:30:46] Ilyse: The current podcast theme is by Love and Caliber.[00:30:49] The current team includes cat fussy and Sydney Cairns. [00:30:53] Damian: remember I'm[00:30:55] Ilyse: and I'm[00:30:56] Damian: we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe [00:31:00] and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Intuit's Dave Raggio shares why SMB MediaLabs doesn’t own inventory, how it prioritizes privacy for its customers, and the reason consumer and CPG brands are turning to Intuit’s data.  Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler.[00:00:01] Ilyse: and I'm Ilyse Liffreing[00:00:02] Damian: and welcome to this edition of the current podcast.[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to bring Dave Raggio to the podcast. Dave is the vice president of S& B Media Labs, a B2B media network owned by Intuit, which is of course known for business products like TurboTax, QuickBooks, Credit Karma, and MailChimp.[00:00:22] Damian: Now Dave developed the idea of SMB Media Lab, which leans on the first party data from the millions of people who use QuickBooks, and it provides small businesses with the intelligence they need to reach their customers across channels like audio and CTV.[00:00:38] Ilyse: We start out by asking Dave about the origins of S& D Media Labs.[00:00:42] : It really came from honestly my personal frustration, in trying to reach SMBs for my, what I'm calling my day job. So, I was hired four years ago, at Intuit to lead QuickBooks acquisition marketing. And I actually still hold that position today. Um, my entire career has [00:01:00] been consumer brand. So I was with North Face before this.[00:01:02] Um, spent a lot of time agency side, working on a variety of clients across CPG and e comm retail. And when I got to, into it, um, I tried to essentially apply the same data sources and tactics that worked very well for me in the, in the consumer world. And it was met very quickly with the reality that SMB data is very hard to find, and when you do find it, the accuracy is just not great.[00:01:28] So, you know, I have a friend, um, that works in the agency that me that at the top you have enterprise level data, which is pretty high quality at the bottom. You have your consumer data, which is abundant and high quality, but between there's a big void and that's pretty much where all S and B data lives.[00:01:49] Um, so it started off. Kind of, it's just a joke internally that I really wish there was a company like QuickBooks that I could partner with and [00:02:00] buy media through that would allow me to find not only the scale of audiences that Intuit has, but also the depth of knowledge about how those, how those businesses are operated and run.[00:02:10] And then that joke kind of became a realization that it is a need for other advertisers that Intuit could very much fill and very uniquely fill as well. Just considering kind of. The breadth and depth of information that we have, um, on, on our small business owners. Um, so that was the start of it. Um, but of course, you know, we wanted to make sure that we were doing it in a way that was beneficial to our customers, um, and done in a privacy safe way.[00:02:38] So that was kind of the start of the journey was just the realization that we had something that advertisers would be interested in, but we also wanted to make sure that it was something that benefited our customers as well.[00:02:47] Damian: That void that you talk about in the middle between enterprise level data and consumer data is quite surprising, isn't it? That there wasn't anything there for those small businesses. I know that 99 percent of all businesses are [00:03:00] SMBs. So that's a huge, uh, yeah, that's a, that's a huge amount of, uh, data that's not being used.[00:03:09] So was it a surprising moment when, when, when you go, when you saw that and you thought, Oh, this is an opportunity.[00:03:15] Dave: Yeah, I, you know, there are small pockets of data where you can get very narrow in, it's just not scalable. So that was the sort of challenge. So you can go to a lot of individual professional sites. But the reality is the world of media is not built around the business that you run, it's built around you as a person.[00:03:31] So stitching those two parameters together, because, you know, as QuickBooks growth, We're looking for specific types of business problems. And, you know, a lot of these small business owners are not active on professional networks. Um, if they have profiles there, they're not looking at them on a regular basis or updating them.[00:03:51] Um, so they, they kind of become. In the shadows, like the S and B part of the data and the targeting capabilities and the need state from the business that they [00:04:00] run sits behind their sort of consumer profiles. So I think it was a surprise when I first joined, but. Logically, after a little while, I was like, okay, that makes sense of why we're not able to find the business traits and qualities that we are able to.[00:04:18] Damian: Yeah, that makes sense. The[00:04:20] Ilyse: Now, how would you go about like describing the value of these small businesses and the data that their advertisers are trying to use to reach this audience?[00:04:31] Dave: Yeah, um, so great question. And there's, there's a couple of different layers of sort of knowledge that we have on our, on our customer base, and we're not unlocking all of those just yet. So we want to, again, going back to the want to do what's right by our customers, we want to make sure that. All the information that we're collecting is something that they would expect us to collect, that they have full control over their ability to participate in this, and that we're only partnering with advertisers that, um, you know, have the best [00:05:00] intent for, for our customers.[00:05:02] With that, uh, we are layering on top of ad buys, data that seems to already exist in the market, but is much more accurate. So that was one of the sort of uphill battles that we've had in the early stages of this. So things like industry, age, revenue, employee count, these are things that on the surface appear to exist in other third party data sources, but You know, again, being on the other side of the buying of this one, I see how wildly off some of those data sources can be and the assumptions that they have about a small business.[00:05:34] So what we're adding on to that is just a very, very, um, deterministic one to one knowledge and accuracy that didn't exist. So we eliminate a lot of waste that comes with using some of the other data providers or even just kind of doing broad market advertising. So that's kind of the main value prop.[00:05:54] That said, we are working with our legal and privacy team. And our [00:06:00] executive sponsor is actually the head of privacy. So that should tell everyone a little bit about how serious we're taking this. But we're also thinking about with our customers, what value can we add to them if we continue to go into what we're calling transactional type data, if we're able to go the next step deeper.[00:06:16] And the reason for that is every business. on the surface may look the same in an industry size employee count, but how they run their business could be very different. So if you're a construction company, that's in the same region as another construction company, roughly same revenue, roughly same employee count doesn't mean that you invest completely different in marketing.[00:06:37] And you may be, Think about your supply chain very differently. What that allows us to do is actually find need states for our customers and be able to pair them with the advertisers that might be able to serve, um, solutions for them in those needs states. And so that's kind of the next wave that we're working on.[00:06:52] It's something that we haven't done yet, but we're hoping to unlock for our advertisers.[00:06:57] Ilyse: Yeah, that's definitely a good example. [00:07:00] Um, I feel like, In a, such a new kind of company like this, and I know you refer to you guys as like a retail media network, although you're not exactly a retail media, um, so it's, it's, it's definitely hard to kind of describe, I would assume, to other B2B businesses exactly what to do and how your like first party data And you essentially use QuickBooks, um, primarily, right?[00:07:27] Um, how they can use that data to their advantage. Is there, like, another example that you can give how, um, advertiser would use your, your media network in order to, like, reach their audience? Heh[00:07:43] Dave: you mentioned that, that, you know, we've, we've been using the term retail media network, but we're, we're very much not a retail media network. So we do not have owned and operated inventory and that's by design. Um, you don't start a business because you're passionate about bookkeeping in most cases.[00:07:55] Um, so we're leaning into as a company, AI and, and, [00:08:00] um, automation to make sure that we're trying to reduce the amount of time that That a customer has to spend in our platforms in order to, um, to get their work done. So throwing ads in there will slow that down. It's not something that, you know, someone that's already paying for subscription would, would want to have that said, there are potentially ways that we've been looking at that. Provide additional value to that. That said by not having owned and operated, I think that we accidentally fell into what I'm calling kind of the next wave of retail media network. So we are more of an audience network that can be layered on to any part of your ad buy that's programmatic. So we have partnerships with the trade desk, with physio, with DV360, with meta, and we We are agnostic to inventory source.[00:08:44] We just allow the advertiser, whatever their KPIs are across the board to just get more efficient and more focused on just the right people. And that's been, um, again, slightly different than what most retail media networks are going, but attending a bunch of [00:09:00] conferences, that seems to be really the hot topic of your own and operated inventory is great.[00:09:04] It is the last. bottom, bottom, bottom of the funnel that you're able to, um, that you're able to really leverage. We are able to address full funnel campaigns with that audience targeting.[00:09:18] Damian: That's very interesting. What kind of advertisers in this space are keen to take advantage of this opportunity to reach these millions of small businesses?[00:09:29] Dave: Yeah, it's so that's been one of the larger surprising things when we started this up. So we built this assuming insurance, banking, credit cards, those would be the The sort of the very close in some of the software SAS providers. Um, that has been very true for us that that's where we're seeing a lot of interest, but we've had a lot of consumer brands coming to us.[00:09:48] There seems to be a wave of interest in small business as a segment for a lot of advertisers. So we've had one of the largest CPG brands approach us. I worked at Method for [00:10:00] a while, so I know firsthand that shipping a bottle of hand soap is very expensive, and it's only a 3 bottle of hand soap, but it's mostly water and fragile, so you're upside down in your e comm costs.[00:10:12] So the area where e comm works really well for CPG brands is concentrates in large formats, and the normal consumer do not want that. It is very profitable to go that direction. Um, so they reached out to us, same thing with one of the largest beverage companies reached out to us cause they want to be in more restaurants, more independent restaurants than the chain restaurants.[00:10:30] So it's been a little surprising across the board of, you know, who's really approached us. Um, and, and some of these non traditional sort of B2B, as you would think about it are really the ones that have a ton of interest.[00:10:42] Ilyse: yeah I must say. It seems like B2B is on like some kind of upward trending line right now. Um, we are seeing like a, an increase across like all channels, I feel like, maybe. Like, um, maybe that's due to like, I don't know, the rise of like [00:11:00] LinkedIn or like, um, just more businesses coming forward. And being created in general, maybe the pandemic even, I don't know, it's, it's curious because I do feel like even like channels like CTV, for instance, there's a lot more like B2B kind of marketing happening.[00:11:16] Is[00:11:16] Dave: Yeah. We're seeing the same thing and we're excited that we're kind of showing up at the right time for that. You know, I think our hypothesis on that is, um, very much correct. There was a small business boom during the pandemic, but a lot of advertisers I think have, have started to kind of run out of scale and saturation that they can have amongst the sort of consumer.[00:11:36] And this is an entirely new audience with tremendous spending power that you can talk about different products that you wouldn't want to put, you know, on a Super Bowl spot. You know, the CPG brand is not going to run a large format concentrate ad in the Super Bowl, but there's now a new path and a new audience that is kind of untapped.[00:11:54] And we're also seeing that also in the marketing space. So a lot of the major social networks and ad providers. [00:12:00] Their next target is all the S and B's because they've got so much share of wallet amongst the enterprise level brands that their, their next growth area is going to have to come from the long tail of S and B's.[00:12:10] Um, so we're happy because we truly feel like we are the most accurate and best way to reach those S and B's. Um, so we're, we're hoping that, that, you know, everything kind of comes together.[00:12:20] Damian: Is there a, is there some kind of nuance in terms of the channels that advertisers trying to reach businesses use versus, you know, more traditional, you might say consumer channels? I mean, they're obviously consumers. are also business owners and business owners are consumers. But is there a different sort of way that you're thinking or the advertisers are thinking about leveraging, um, the data that you're providing?[00:12:48] Dave: We've not seen that. So kind of going back to the challenge that brought this whole thing to life is that The the line between them as a small business owner and them is just a person [00:13:00] is almost indistinguishable between the two of those. So The nice thing is because it's programmatic wherever they happen to be We're able to find them and able to serve them relevant advertising at that point I think that Um, it really the, the majority of channel selection will come down to the objective of the campaign.[00:13:22] So we had a major global logistics company that was very focused on brand advertising and we were running them on connected TV with Vizio. We were running them on some digital video formats. We had another SaaS provider that was very focused on cost per leads. And we. Much heavier on the social and programmatic, uh, display side of things.[00:13:41] So it's really more of what's the objective dictates kind of the channel mix itself. But, um, in terms of are there subtle nuances or specific places we go? Not really. We kind of just follow, follow the sort of, um, friends that we're seeing with the, with those small business [00:14:00] owners.[00:14:00] Damian: Totally makes sense.[00:14:01] Ilyse: Now, you've described SMB MediaLabs as the next wave of retail networks, which is very interesting. I like that kind of quote right there. Um, you've also said it's like a more open network than some others. Can you describe why that is?[00:14:20] Dave: Yeah, so I would say we're not the next wave. I think that we are ahead and riding the next wave. So I don't say that we are defining it by any means, but, um, we were open in the fact that we're not relying on our own inventory. So we can go. Pretty much anywhere. Um, and if an advertiser comes to us and they have a specific DSP that they really want to work with, we can onboard those DSPs if they're not already in our network.[00:14:44] So a big part of our, of our product is really making sure that we have the largest breadth of inventory sources and partnerships available, that we can develop campaigns in partnership with the advertiser and the agencies that actually, um, can [00:15:00] span wherever they believe that their customers are, whatever their objectives are.[00:15:03] So that's, that's the open part. Of what we're doing. Um, and because of that also, like there's just easier capabilities for them to, to measure it because they're already using a lot of the DSPs and platforms that they're, they're using for their normal campaign. So we're not any sort of walled garden that has hidden metrics behind the scene, which I know is also, you know, a challenge for a lot of retail media networks as well.[00:15:26] Ilyse: That's awesome. How do you, going about your own advertising for this network, how are you basically scaling it?[00:15:34] Dave: Getting the word out and, uh, getting people to, uh, to, to try it. So we have had, um, I think we're, we're in, in month eight now, and we've had a number of large advertisers come in the data's, the data and the audience targeting is performing extremely well, that is something that, um, was a concern of mine going in that, you know, a, is there enough people that are interested in S and B's and we already [00:16:00] talked about how that, you know, You know, has been something that we've been able to check that box and say, yes, there is a ton of interest from advertisers across the board.[00:16:07] The second one was, have I convinced myself that our audience quality is as good as it is. Um, and the data that's come in as, as shown that it's, it's performing extremely well, both on brand metrics and on cost per action. So, uh, our goal right now is to just have as many conversations and just do as many tests as possible.[00:16:26] And let the advertiser see how well it performs comparatively to other things.[00:16:31] Damian: I guess the next question would be how well does it perform? You know, what kind of data insights are you getting back to provide to advertisers?[00:16:39] Dave: Yeah, so, uh, we are seeing so we've done some disco studies on brand ones, and we're seeing on average 30 to 40 percent increase in brand metrics, which is huge. That was not that's actually outside of what we anticipated and hoped for on that one. And I think probably the big one was when we've run some cost per lead campaigns for SAS [00:17:00] cloud service.[00:17:01] We cut their CPLs by 75%. So just eliminating the inaccuracy and focusing your spin on deterministic direct connections with those advertisers or with those, with those customers as has worked extremely well.[00:17:18] Damian: Yeah, that's a high fidelity audience. I, I, I like that phrase.[00:17:23] Damian: I guess we have to have a question about ai, right? We have to talk about ai.[00:17:44] Um, you know. In April, Intuit introduced an AI assistant to its core product. Products, I should say, um, in TurboTax. It's going to shorten the time to file taxes, credit karma, users [00:18:00] get personalized financial information advice, I should say, and users can generate marketing content in MailChimp. You know, how are you and SMB Media Labs using AI?[00:18:09] Yeah,[00:18:13] Dave: we built, we are a managed service. So we are doing the buys and executing for the time being. That is something that is very difficult to scale because for us it is kind of core to Google. Make sure that the, that the media that we're buying, not only is targeted, but it's performing.[00:18:29] So there's a lot of optimizations that we want to be able to make recommendations on and act on. Uh, it's hard to do that. You know, our goal is to have hundreds of advertisers. You can't optimize hundreds of advertisers. So there are tools that we are bringing on board that actually use AI to understand how the various campaigns are performing, are able to serve up some sort of triggered recommendations based off of that.[00:18:51] Um, and that allows our team to scale and really make sure that everything that we're doing is. hitting the benchmarks and exceeding the benchmarks that we want them to do [00:19:00] across all of our advertisers.[00:22:09] Damian: One question I guess from that is, you know, the actual marketing of the SMB, uh, the actual marketing of SMB MediaLabs, how do you think about that?[00:22:21] Dave: Uh, well, the marketing of SMB Media Labs is a lot of. Conversations like this. Um, so I'm a little bit on a podcast tour. I am, I'm going to be at Cannes. So we do have a space in the media link to a can where we're going to be having a number of meetings, speaking engagements. Um, it's, it is different enough that it does require a little bit of explanation and, you know, in full transparency, there's an added hurdle that as it stands now, we are a managed service.[00:22:45] So, um, it is. It adds complexity to what a traditional we are not doing the model where we just park our data and anyone can go and pull it like through a marketplace. We still have to control. And that's that's because we want to have the highest bar possible for how we [00:23:00] control our data. So it just takes more conversations.[00:23:03] But, uh, You know, we are doing some programmatic media buying and we're doing some digital out of home in the elevators of a lot of the major agencies in New York City. So we're, we're trying to really focus in on, on both the agencies and the advertisers that would be interested in something like this.[00:23:19] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.[00:23:24] Ilyse: The current podcast theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Cat Vessey and Sydney Cairns.[00:23:30] Damian: And[00:23:30] remember I'm Damian.[00:23:32] Ilyse: I'm Elise.[00:23:33] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review.[00:23:38] Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Las Vegas Raiders’ SVP of Marketing Kristen Banks joins The Current Podcast to discuss the importance of balancing old and new fan bases alike, and not just in Las Vegas. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian [00:00:01] Illyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffering and [00:00:02] Damian: welcome to this edition of The Current [00:00:04] Illyse: This week, [00:00:05] we're delighted to talk with Kristen Banks, the SVP of Marketing for the Las Vegas Raiders, formerly known as the Oakland Raiders, and for a while the Los Angeles Raiders from 1982 to 94, [00:00:18] Damian: but since 2020, the Raiders have made their home in Las Vegas, and this year the Raiders hosted the Super Bowl at Allegiant Stadium. [00:00:26] That's the first time in NFL history that a Super Bowl was played in the state of Nevada. [00:00:31] Illyse: In fact, the match was the most streamed in history by a record setting audience. [00:00:37] Damian: Now, although the Raiders weren't playing in the match, the event marked a watershed moment for the NFL, for Las Vegas, and the game in general. [00:00:45] We started by asking Kristen what all that attention meant to the Raiders. [00:00:51] Kristen: it's incredible. Uh, you know, coming into working for a brand that's been around 60 years. So the Raiders organization is [00:01:00] been, you know, around since 1960 and they've never hosted a Super Bowl. So for the first time, you know, coming to a new stadium being built in Las Vegas in 2020, not having it open for the first two years that the stadium was in full operations because of the pandemic, And then fast forward to this year hosting the Super Bowl on a wide, really global stage. [00:01:26] was incredible. It was incredible for the brand. It was incredible for the city of Las Vegas. And I think it really represents a new chapter in sport and what's happening in this city. [00:01:40] Illyse: And you know, also thanks to streaming and probably also Taylor Swift a little bit, let's be honest, we're seeing new fans come to the NFL. [00:01:49] Kristen: What I would say is again, drafting back to the pandemic is that there's, you know, there was already a change in consumer behavior and how consumers were [00:02:00] absorbing and watching content. Certainly with the pandemic that increased that aptitude. And so you saw this incredible spike in how people are consuming content, certainly migrating away from being cord cutters or potentially Cord nevers who had a cable package and moving into streaming services. [00:02:20] Certainly you see that even more so with the younger population and Gen Z. It's about simply. Being available to every audience type that's out there, and that could be on their mobile phone, on their tablet, when they're watching the game, still on regular television, but going to social media platforms or YouTube to consume additional content that only enhances the experience. [00:02:46] Damian: That's interesting. One of the things that you said to me, Kristen, was about that streaming and second screen experiences that, in effect, there's a sort of virtual community of fans who are sharing content as the action is happening and unfolding. [00:03:00] How do you think about that and leverage that as a marketer? [00:03:02] Because that seems like a pretty exciting real time opportunity. [00:03:06] Kristen: It's such a unique world, right? Particularly for younger audiences, we'll say, under the age of 25, if they haven't documented it, then it's almost like it didn't happen. So, as a brand and as a marketer, you have to think about when someone's attending a game, when they're watching it at home, how are they engaging with the experience? [00:03:30] And how are you giving them? A opportunity to tell their story and what it means to engage and experience that activity with the brand. [00:03:40] , I'm quite new to the Raiders organization. I joined, um, six months ago, right at the start of the 2023 season. the height of Super Bowl. And so my team is deep in the throes of the strategy and planning of how do we build audiences and how do we ultimately create customer journeys long [00:04:00] term. [00:04:00] When you think about the avidity scale of the very core passionate fan who maybe is a season ticket member, buys merchandise can't get enough of the Raiders podcast that type of fan. is very different than a very casual fan so for a very casual fan, I'm not going to immediately try to sell them on a season ticket member because they're likely not at that stage of ready to make that commitment financially, ready to make that time commitment. [00:04:31] So how do I get them to watch a piece of content? So it's really about building out each person individually and saying, okay, this subset of fans represent this group and follow this typical pathway. [00:04:45] And these types of fans that are much more avid may follow a very different pathway. And this is what this looks like. [00:04:51] Damian: I'm very curious on the, you know, when you mentioned the coach and the teams and all that dynamic that goes on, how much access do you and [00:05:00] your marketing team have to that? How do you, how does that kind of infuse what you have to do on the, on the executive front? [00:05:06] Kristen: From week to week, you know, win or loss, you know, there's this constant narrative that's playing out on a real time stage and on social media and live on broadcast. And so then you have to say, okay, how do we ultimately take that draft quickly? If maybe a player made a stunning catch, or had a, you know, a fumble, or did something on the field that was really extraordinary, how do we then, you know, how do we dovetail off of that? [00:05:39] How do we create content? Taking those things that are really quick hits and ultimately doing a quick turn to be relevant and, you know, in that social media moment of continuing to capture that interest and intent. [00:05:55] Damian: That's really interesting. And the way that advertising now is deployed in a much more agile [00:06:00] way makes that all the more possible, I assume. [00:06:03] Kristen: Right. I would say, there's challenges with that. Yes, for sure. It's. It's easier to do nowadays. I mean, certainly you've got social media, you've got digital content. It's easy to push something out, but you also have the challenge of, as you think about customization and personalization and audience segmentation, what does that look like, right? [00:06:24] Is it five different messages? Is it three different messages? Is it one different message, but a different channel? So, you know, Even still, when you're trying to move as quickly so that you're still relevant, and it's happening, that lightning in that moment, you have to also be able to take a pause, say, what's the strategic approach here, and is this reflective of the right audience, and where do we ultimately push this to make it relevant? [00:06:52] Illyse: I feel like the NFL and sports leagues overall, There's a lot of, like storylines that you can actually, draw from, and, like, [00:07:00] personalities. , everybody has their favorite player their favorite moment in time that that player, really succeeded. [00:07:08] How do you then use these storylines to, like, infuse your marketing content as you think about, keeping things relevant and authentic? [00:07:17] Kristen: My background is sports and entertainment, which has really what I'd like to say is baked in stories and they're happening on a daily basis, right? I think it's why when we then partner with brands or we bring in partnerships and we say, okay, brand X, Y, Z, who maybe doesn't have some of those built in storylines to play from, how do they make what they're doing, you know, speak to the fan base [00:07:43] Illyse: do you think that even work with brands that don't have an obvious affinity with a sports team? Like how do you create then like extensions of the story? [00:07:54] Kristen: I'll pick on maybe a little bit of finance and insurance because maybe they're not as sexy, [00:08:00] but, in naturally partnering with a brand or a sports property helps allow that to happen. And then it creates that opportunity to say, Okay, well, that finance or that insurance brand, you know what, when there's a setback, oh, that may relate to somebody's personal life in how they're investing, right? [00:08:20] And that's easier for brands to attach to versus having to try to create something from scratch. one of the interesting narratives that came out of 2023 season was certainly with our Interim head coach, who's now the head coach, Antonio Pierce. [00:08:44] And he's an incredible figure and certainly quite the motivator and just, gives these incredible speeches and really. Kind of these amazing lines that just play really well into marketing. Um, and it was, okay, how do [00:09:00] we create a whole blackout kind of experience? It was clear they weren't going to be making the playoffs, but how do we still make it impactful to the fans that they want to show up, that they want to watch, so if you take that story of, okay, everybody's going to dress in all black in the way that he does. [00:09:17] Show up and represent, which is usually kind of one of his sayings and to see that come to life, to see many of the fans dressed in all black at the game, to see messages of encouragement posted on social media. And then, which it was incredible to see him walk off the field and have people chanting. [00:09:39] For the coach, that's that's quite unheard of. So that was a really cool. Um, it was a really cool moment to see and witness and from a marketing side, help create that, [00:09:52] Damian: yeah, so the executive side of the Las Vegas Raiders, you've got a very powerful story there too. And I know that it's a team [00:10:00] of firsts with the first female black president of an NFL team and more. [00:10:05] I wonder if you could talk a little bit about, you know, that side of the story. [00:10:09] Kristen: I think, you know, the Raiders has a really an illustrious history. , you have, you know, the first black head coach. You had the very first female president in the NFL. They all came from the Raiders. Now you have the very first female black, uh, president of the Raiders. And so, you know, it's an organization that's been in firsts. [00:10:33] Over the past 60 years, and so it's incredible to say that, you know, whether it was, , Mark Davis, our owner of the Raiders, or his father, Al Davis, they constantly said it was really always about just finding the right person for the role and really just that. And not, and diversity and inclusion becomes just part of that because you want to make sure that you're representing [00:11:00] the audience in the right way.[00:11:02] Kristen: And to be at the forefront of doing that is to make sure that in the back office, and on the field, and in the coaches and staff all reflect that representation as well. And so I think that's just a fabric of the Raiders DNA that's always been present. But To be here now, to be part of the leadership team, to have, a female president who's African American, to be a part of that executive group as myself being a female and being in sports, it's really trailblazing and it's an exciting, uh, time for sure [00:11:37] Illyse: Do you believe that then has an effect on the marketing? I know, there are obviously a ton of female, NFL fans out there and Raiders fans, I'm sure. And, I feel like. Often, though, football is more marketed to men. Do you feel that having more women in those, [00:12:00] power roles really speaks to the women that are fans? [00:12:04] Kristen: Yeah, I think it has to. I think it's a natural influence and that, you know, whether it's women, whether it's other ethnicities, whether it's different backgrounds, different cultures, all of that is really important because if you think about just, right, I'll just take Las Vegas because that's obviously where the Raiders, our home base is now. [00:12:28] We certainly reach a lot of other markets and audiences, but I'll talk about Las Vegas, which is. You know, naturally, just about 50 50 split in between men and women. 28 percent of the audience in Las Vegas is Hispanic. 11 percent is, is Asian Pacific Islander. Las Vegas is called the Ninth Island for a reason, a lot of Hawaiian transplants. [00:12:53] And also 10 percent is African American. So, you look at that really [00:13:00] diverse fabric of people in Las Vegas who could potentially be fans of the Raiders, and who ultimately we want to ingrain so that they feel the Raiders are their hometown team. The employee base should reflect that and I would say for sure, my background, my experience, and even my team around me, should reflect the diversity and diverse opinions of those communities for sure. [00:13:29] Illyse: One of the most interesting facts about the Las Vegas Raiders is that you're a legacy brand, but you're now in a new location how do you ensure that you're engaging those fanbases while reaching new fans? [00:13:45] Kristen: I think it's making sure that nothing that you're doing is going to, Be damaging to the core or feel not authentic. We certainly have still quite a fan base in Los [00:14:00] Angeles and Oakland [00:14:00] but then to say, okay, now we need to bring in. New fans, completely different that are not part of those generations that are introduced to the team because now we're here in Las Vegas that has never had an NFL team before that honestly never had any professional sports team up until the last. Five, 10 years, that would have been completely frowned upon in what was formerly called Sin City. [00:14:28] You never want to upset the core. But you want to make sure that you're doing something that still pushes the envelope a little bit so that you're constantly growing and adapting. [00:14:38] Illyse: And, you know, I'm curious about this too because, you know, we're living in like a digital world now. Anybody can go on and stream like a Raiders game, no matter where they are. With fan bases, especially across cities, across states, does location matter as much these days to be a fan of a particular NFL team? [00:14:59] Kristen: You know, [00:15:00] I think, think it depends. I think it depends on who you ask, and I think it depends on what type of fan and what avidity scale. And the reason I say that is, is I'll say, you know, the Raiders, we are very, proud of the fact that we have a season ticket member. In every state in some 15 countries, um, that are, that grace our stadium. [00:15:23] I mean, that's a little bit of, you know, a little panache to say that, but on top of it, you know, how fans have access, you know. Can look completely different to I mean, certainly your bread and butter are the people coming in the stadium, but the bigger appeal, the bigger growth potential are those fans watching at home. [00:15:44] And what's that experience? And to your point, at least that could be done really anywhere, right? And then to what they have access to. Um, some of that, you know, depends on live broadcast rights and where, games are aired. [00:16:00] But there's also an incredible amount of content, and for anybody under the age of 20, getting them to watch a full game sometimes is a challenge anyway, so they're going on TikTok and watching some highlights. [00:16:12] So, those really casual fans, keeping them engaged, which can be at home, on the go, in a different city, in a different country, is certainly relative and important, too, to the Raiders overall growth. [00:16:28] Damian: So, Kristen, you talked, you mentioned that Vegas is pretty new to sports, but I do know that, you know, your background, which is very interesting. You're a lead marketer for the UFC, which was one of the original sports franchises in Vegas, along with boxing. I wonder about you. [00:16:47] You know, um, learned from that experience and you, you were in, the midst of, this in, as, as the city has kind of evolved into this sports center in a way. It [00:16:56] Kristen: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I [00:17:00] moved to Las Vegas back in 2015. was with the UFC for eight years there, formerly worked in entertainment for NBCUniversal in Orlando. so I'll say I've always been, had a background of cast of characters and rich stories to play with. But on that end, you know, when we moved back in 2015, Very different landscape. [00:17:22] One, there was no stadiums. and there certainly was no talk of baseball, basketball, or really any other national sport. and so UFC had planted a flag many years ago as already being a boxing town where you'd have, you know, big events. [00:17:40] But what I will say is, is that is good timing of having that past experience because you're trailblazing. You're saying, okay. How do we set a flag here? How do we do this? How do we make this work? How do we get fans engaged locally? To then parlay that into what I'm [00:18:00] doing now, which is working for the NFL and working for, a team locally that has such an incredible, brand recognition, brand storyline. [00:18:12] And building from that is to say, okay, well, I can take some of what I've learned from UFC trailblaze and say, how do we make that cool and relevant, to new fans here in Las Vegas? [00:18:25] Illyse: Speaking of Vegas how is the Raiders , leaning into sports betting in any way? [00:18:30] Kristen: In Las Vegas, because of naturally the betting and the gambling and maybe it feeling like, Oh, this is, this is too taboo for a sports team to come to Las Vegas. but today, you know, some of our partners are sports betting partners. Um, we have MGM bet, who's a corporate sponsor. We have DraftKings, and there are league partnerships with sports betting partners. [00:18:56] Naturally, I'd say, it's really working with the [00:19:00] teams individually to say, hey, how do we make sure that we make sure that the game stays pure, that it's really just more of a fan focal point, but that those two don't intersect. [00:19:12] Illyse: Yeah, It's definitely interesting. The Raiders are kind of, I would say different from a lot of other NFL teams and I'm curious about what you would say about why that is. For instance, like the nickname, I know Raider Nation is, is really strong and the fans are . Maybe some of the most spirited in, yes, in the league, I would say. What do you think? [00:19:38] Kristen: They really represent and tap into what the Raiders brand is, which is about individuality. [00:19:46] It's about, being yourself authentically. It's about doing it in such a way that's very different, almost cosplay esque. Playing into that it's the team for maybe the [00:20:00] non sports fan, you know, and silver and black, and how cool are those colors that everybody looks good in black. So I think there's, there's just so much fun. [00:20:12] And then I think about, you know, just where the Raiders came from to, you know, our incredible history of Al Davis being the owner, and commitment to excellence, having pride and pride and poise, those things and that and that kind of ethos, plays into everything of what we do, and I think that the fans gravitate to that because it's something they can identify with. [00:20:39] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:20:41] We'll be back next week so stay tuned. [00:20:44] Illyse: The current podcast theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesey and Sydney Cairns. [00:20:51] Damian: And remember [00:20:52] Kristen: You never want to upset the core. But you want to make sure that you're doing something that still pushes the envelope a little bit so [00:21:00] that you're constantly growing and adapting. [00:21:02] Damian: I'm Damien [00:21:03] Illyse: I'm Ilyse. [00:21:04] Damian: we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave a review. Also tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report,

NBCUniversal’s ad president talks upfronts, strategic audiences, brand storytelling, and the Paris Olympics.Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00] Damian: I'm damian Fowler.[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Eileen Sliffering.[00:00:02] Damian: Welcome to this edition of the Current Podcast.[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Allison Levin, who joined NBCUniversal as the President of Advertising and Partnerships earlier this year.[00:00:15] Damian: Allison oversees all ad sales initiatives for NBCUniversal across national and local markets, as well as for the company's Peacock streaming service, which will be the streaming home 000 hours of Olympics coverage for the first time.[00:00:30] Ilyse: It's no doubt going to be a summer of sport for the legacy broadcaster which owns the media rights to the Olympics through 2032 and for the first time the slots on Peacock are open to programmatic buyers.[00:00:44] Damian: that's not all. Just this week, NBCUniversal returned to Radio City Music Hall in New York City for its annual Upfront presentation, celebrating the company's diverse slate of programming. We started by asking Alison about this year's [00:01:00] event.[00:01:00] Alison: Yeah, I mean, it's, this is such a, an incredible busy time of year for all of us. And it really is such a great, like forcing function to take a step back and to have these conversations with clients, both agencies and our brand partners about. What it is that they're excited for the next 12 months.[00:01:17] How do we want to partner together? And what does the future hold, right? there's so many conversations that are in quarter often, but this is the opportunity to really look ahead and talk about the future of our work together. and so I would say from the conversations we've been having, and we've been having, hundreds of conversations across clients and agencies, we're really hearing like.[00:01:36] Two big themes that are coming out. And the first is about strategic audiences. So for those of us that have been in, digital for a long time, this isn't a surprise that, you know, buying off of a more precise audience, like someone who's in market for a car or household income or leveraging. A client's first party data is just a more effective way to place [00:02:00] media than, buying adults 18 to 49.[00:02:03] Like someone had said to me once that adults 18 to 49 is a family reunion. It's not a buying And it's it stuck with me ever, since. And, We are hearing loud and clear from clients that they are really excited to move into more precise audiences, not just in streaming and across digital, but really looking at it on the linear side too, and having one buying tactic across the full portfolio.[00:02:27] And, when you think about Consumers like at the end of the day, we're all consumers. We're all viewers and viewers have a relationship with IP, not delivery mechanism, right? And so as marketers we're hearing from marketers, they want to have that same execution strategy and they really want to find their target audience.[00:02:46] Wherever they may be across a full portfolio in a more precise way. So I would say that's one key theme we're hearing a lot about. and of course that has great implications on programmatic. it has implications on our one [00:03:00] platform, total audience product, Opta, and how we, actually help leverage data to find our audience across our full portfolio. And then. Another really interesting conversation that's been coming up quite a bit. And we just were in a client meeting this morning where this was like front and center, but was how can we partner with our brands to tell stories within our stories? Right? Like, and if you just take a step back, like storytelling is, the fundamental part.[00:03:30] Of our foundation. It's how we have learned as human beings, how we've grown. It's our number one form of entertainment is being entertained by stories. And I include sports in that. Like there is a beginning, middle end of sports. And so as we talk to marketers, they really want to And work together to stand out, to tell stories within our stories.[00:03:50] Like even thinking about Jake from safe farm, that's a story, right? Like these brand, champions are storytellers too. So I'd say the combination of what we're hearing a lot in market is [00:04:00] strategic audiences. So moving to more precise audiences across linear and streaming, and then going deeper and big content moments, whether that be sports or Bravo or big live events, like Thanksgiving day parade and more.[00:04:15] Damian: That was really interesting. So it's actually getting quite granular and clients have to pay attention to what's actually happening in the programming. I'm[00:04:26] Alison: I mean, like that's really how these moments stand out is like taking IP together and helping infuse a brand into the IP.[00:04:36] Damian: going to switch a little bit, but related, but obviously it's going to be a big summer for NBCUniversal with the Paris Olympics, which, you have the media rights to in the US. And I've been hearing that you've been setting up major events like the opening ceremony, with the Paris Olympics.[00:04:51] record revenue. Maybe this is an obvious question, but why is this inventory so enticing for [00:05:00] advertisers?[00:05:01] Alison: Yeah. I'm four months into my time at NBCU and, just the, value and interest in this asset is even Stronger than I imagined truly. And I think, when you think about it, it makes complete sense of why this is so interesting for brands and so exciting for consumers.[00:05:18] But like, I think from a brand perspective, just even thinking about the state of mind that people are in when they're watching this, There, especially right now, in times when people are divided, like opportunities and places and content that bring people together that are really moments of joy and happiness and suspense.[00:05:38] so the mindset that you are reaching people in, in that moment is really just, So valuable from a marketer perspective. and then I'd say the second is just reach, like how much reach the Olympics actually drives the share of attention it drives. So from a marketer perspective, like you find this audience in this really engaged mindset in [00:06:00] moments of happiness and togetherness, we're all rooting for team USA.[00:06:04] And then it also has such incredible reach and share. Of attention during this timeframe, where everyone's talking about it, everyone's watching it. So what an opportunity from a marketer perspective to really break through. and then you add to that, like the consumer experience too. So thinking about Peacock and all we're doing on the Peacock side, on the Olympics that we're going to have thousands of hours of content.[00:06:27] All of the different games, like never before, different consumer experiences as well. And so that, that combination is just so powerful and we'reseeing such excitement from the market to surround the games and be in the games.[00:06:41] Damian: one of the great things about the Olympics is there's so many sports on offering it. people have so many different interests. And so you can go from surfing to track and field to soccer. So it's really an amazing opportunity.[00:06:54] Wanted to just also touch upon Talk about the fact that for the first time you're going [00:07:00] programmatic on your streaming service in terms of selling the inventory around the Olympics. Why is that so significant?[00:07:10] Alison: I mean, from our perspective, we believe deeply in the power of programmatic and strategic audience buying. and for brands programmatic access really democratizes access to these incredible events where Olympics is one of them, like just even taking a step back, our entire live sports inventory from the NFL to big 10 and more now programmatically Transacted and with that, the number of advertisers in 2023 actually grew 87 percent year over year and the sports revenue doubled, right?[00:07:45] So there's just incredible momentum on the number of advertisers that have access to these huge moments. Like they're huge from a reach perspective. They're huge from an attention perspective. And now we're adding Olympics to that. And so when you think about. What is the [00:08:00] television of today? what is the opportunity for today?[00:08:02] It's precise audiences. Bought in real time and measurable and the ability to optimize. Like now you can do that with Olympics and with all of live sports across Peacock, like it is amazing how much this really changed in the last few years. And so we're so excited to truly. Bring this opportunity to advertisers that historically have not been able to participate.[00:08:25] Um,[00:08:26] And we're just so excited to, to see, all the momentum and get some learnings from it as well.[00:08:32] Ilyse: Yeah, you know, we, always write about how, like, CTV, but now especially like live sports is like democratizing TV, as you say, when it comes to live sports and perhaps especially like now Olympics, are you seeing certain advertisers more interested or is interest really like spanning across sectors at this point?[00:08:54] Damian: point?[00:08:55] Alison: across. Sectors because, and I think the Olympics is a really interesting example because the point [00:09:00] that you made before, there's so many different sports to, so you might be really interested in, swimming or as a brand or rock climbing, you can be specialized, but really from a, taking a step back from a sports perspective, like it drives incredible reach.[00:09:17] And fandom, it's one of the greatest stories told, right? And there's such anticipation as you watch it and suspense. And so that's something that all brands of all different categories really have been interested in, and we've seen just an incredible momentum. And then from the consumer side, it's been tremendous, the ratings.[00:09:38] And I think one of the, the thoughts when streaming came out and we started to put live sports on Peacock was that would cannibalize ratings on linear, but we've not seen that come to life. Like in last year's rating on sports, actually on linear grew and streaming grew. So streaming is just bringing in a whole new audience of viewers that we weren't, that we weren't accessing before.[00:09:59] and so [00:10:00] it's such an opportunity from a consumer perspective. We're creating more ways for them to watch in different ways, but it's also creating and opening up a new door to advertisers that maybe have not been able to access the properties before.[00:10:13] Ilyse: It definitely seems like it's just Changing overall, evolving rather, including as what's happening with this week with upfronts. Really programmatic buys can happen at any time now and that's like altering the traditional upfront marketplace in a sense. Are you seeing this, are the upfronts basically shifting to that always on marketplace?[00:10:38] Alison: What we're seeing on our end is that there really is a finite amount of truly premium professionally produced content. and that is across the board in linear, but also in streaming. And so when you pair that with wanting to find strategic, more precise audiences, or you have a big sale coming up [00:11:00] on, weekend and you want to heavy up during that timeframe, like Locking in those audiences and reserving them is still incredibly important.[00:11:08] And so the role of the upfront and the fact that the upfront is a futures market and you lock in the inventory ahead of time is still. very important. And we're continuing to see that this year and for next year's upfront. But I think the ways that you want to place that upfront, the ways that you wantto say, I'm going to spend this amount and I want it for this audience, but what is the actual tool that you might use to run your campaign?[00:11:31] I think has changed. So if you want to run it as a PG deal through a DSP or PMP deal, that's certainly something that's. That brands have been interested in, and there's a lot of benefits to that too. So I think both things are happening where the upfront is still an important process, reserving inventory is still important, but the, underlying, tools you use to place that upfront, I think have been changing.[00:11:55] Ilyse: Now, when you first announced your Olympic programmatic effort [00:12:00] a few months ago, you stated, and I thought this was very interesting, we're taking back ownership of performance. We drive performance just as well, if not better, than your Metas and your Googles. Can you go into how investing with NBCU drives this performance for marketers?[00:12:17] Alison: Yeah, the team probably at NBCU is like, maybe you might be sick of me hearing, getting on my soapbox about this, but I just think the idea that there is, a media. Activation type called performance media drives me a little bit bonkers because it, it leads people to believe that the rest of it doesn't perform.[00:12:34] and someone had told me the other day, and I thought this was so interesting that I want, they, they said, I think that television advertising has a Branding problem, ironically. And I'm like, I actually think it does too. when you take a step back and you think about what drives performance for advertisers, what moves products off the shelf, what gets people into a dealership, what drives people to studios, it's massive [00:13:00] reach getting as many people as possible.[00:13:02] It's finding the right audience, leveraging first party data, connecting to third party data. It's tools that help you optimize to get smarter and smarter as you go. And then it's real time attribution. And when you take a step back, NBCU reaches 90 percent of us households in a given month.[00:13:22] We have massive reach. We deeply know who our consumers are. We have first party data on over 90 million households. We partner with ad tech to help with real time optimization. And we're getting smarter and going deeper on real time attribution. And so I think to me, the real, the real difference here and the one that we're really excited to work through with our clients is getting faster attribution and measurement in their hands so that they can understand performance and don't have to rely on MMM models that can take nine months to a year.[00:13:54] And it's not actually that the performance is any less than these other players. [00:14:00] It's the perception of the research and the attribution studies that they don't have as quickly as possible. Like we were just in this. Client meeting and she was telling us like all of these social platforms are all claiming incrementality on all this and yet They're not even selling as much as in aggregate They're all saying they're getting credit for right like there needs to be a reassessment of what does attribution?[00:14:23] actually mean how do you look at it holistically? And I think there's, leveraging NBCU's portfolio and understanding the power of the platform as quickly as possible is goal number one for us this year.[00:14:36] Now I know you think about the user experience a lot, on Peacock, on really all of your platforms. What about the ad experience?[00:14:48] Damian: TV[00:14:48] Ilyse: to me is, it seems to be just getting more and more personalized. Why do you think this is important to viewers? Peace.[00:14:56] Alison: Yeah, I personalization makes a better, experience for [00:15:00] consumers and it makes a better experience for brands, right? It drives performance for brands. And, I do think this is such an important element. If you think about the calculation of performance and what drives performance for an advertiser, how a consumer sees that ad, what is their mindset at, and what is the experience around seeing that ad is so So critical and I think sometimes underappreciated, for peacock, we take this so seriously.[00:15:27] Our ad load is the lowest, one of the lowest, if not the lowest of all the premium AVADS. When you are a buyer, you own the pod from a category perspective. So if you are a financial service brand, you own that pod and there's no one else that's near you for the minutes before you Between those breaks, like that is so powerful from a brand perspective and it drives results with the consumers they're trying to reach.[00:15:53] our pause ads that we run are beautiful and done creatively and it drives incredible impact for brands [00:16:00] too. And when you add that combination of, innovative ad units, a great consumer experience, we just see time and time again that it drives results. And we hear everyone's, people tell us all the time, like they are users of.[00:16:12] Peacock, but also other streaming channels and they feel the difference like, and if you feel it as a consumer, it also means that when anadvertiser shows up, you are feeling a different way about them and their products in that moment. So we just take that so seriously. And the fact matters, Peacock was built for advertisers first.[00:16:31] We didn't retrofit as in after the fact. And so it really allowed us to be really thoughtful about building both of these at the same exact time versus figuring one out and then trying to get the other one shoved in there after the fact.[00:16:44] Damian: I read that local markets have a really significant influence on audiences and that national brands can connect with audiences more effectively when they speak with a local voice. And I know that your remit is across national and local. as you oversee that, what's your observation, on that [00:17:00] point?[00:17:01] Alison: Yeah. we've been. I'd say it's really been exciting. working across the national and local teams and there's been so much momentum on the local business, around digital and our ad property called spot on. It's our offering that we have. That's basically allows you to find your audience across Peacock and other digital endpoints, in specific geos and DMAs.[00:17:25] and I think a great example of where we're going with this is the launch of spot on auto. So that product in particular actually syncs up with constellation, as a key partner there with tier three auto and let's see tier three auto in a seamless way, activate across our peacock inventory. And as you know, like there's.[00:17:46] Tremendous opportunity in that category, tremendous, growth from a digital standpoint. And so new tech products and innovations like that to go capture the tier three auto market, but also other local markets [00:18:00] has been really exciting for us. An area of opportunity. And then to your point, when you marry that with what is the, national, business doing right.[00:18:08] So the tier one and what is the impact of running tier one plus tier two auto plus tier three auto on driving people to a dealership. So we're really excited about the early findings we're seeing from spot on auto and a lot more to come there.[00:18:22] Damian: Goes back to driving performance. Thanks.[00:18:24] Alison: Exactly.[00:18:27] Ilyse: now one final question for you. As obviously we're going into this huge summer for NBCU with Olympics programmatic on Peacock. Looking into your crystal ball, what do you imagine for the future ahead of that? How can NBCU even top that?[00:18:43] Damian: didn't[00:18:44] Alison: excited for this summer and I'm so excited for Paris quite personally. Um, but I think one of the things I think that's underappreciated about NBCU, we talked about this a bit at 124, that we've been leading in television [00:19:00] and video innovation. For decades, right? The first NFL game ever aired on NBC was a hundred years ago.[00:19:07] The first viral clip ever on YouTube was SNL. The largest streaming day ever was on Peacock. And, I'm excited for us to take back that narrative a little bit in the market. We've been quietly leading an innovation for decades where you continue to do so. And we do it because brands have always been in our partners.[00:19:27] Number one for us, they're,what we think about when we wake up and we go to bed at night, like making their campaign successful. And we've been innovating to do that. And we are continuing to do that. So I just say like, just thinking about everything we've been doing on Peacock over the last, 12 months.[00:19:45] everything that we were doing on attribution and measurement, all of our work on strategic audiences and Opta, just imagine what we'll do in the next 12 months. Like we're just hitting our stride right now and there's just so much runway ahead for us. And, we've got [00:20:00] great partners that have been here testing and innovating and building alongside of us.[00:20:05] Ilyse:OUTRO[00:20:05] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.[00:20:11] Ilyse: The current podcast theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Cat Vessey and Sydney Cairns.[00:20:17] Damian: And[00:20:17] remember I'm Damian.[00:20:19] Ilyse: I'm Elise.[00:20:20] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review.[00:20:25] Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report

Hearst Newspaper's Vice President of Programmatic, Mike Irenski, joins The Current Podcast to explore the value of local journalism and what advertisers need to know about it.  Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.[00:00:00]Damian: I'm Damian Fowler. AndIlyse: I'm Ilyse Liffreing.Damian: welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Michael Eirenski, the Vice President of Programmatic Revenue at Hearst Newspapers.Damian: Now Hearst has a legacy that goes all the way back to 1887 when William Randolph Hearst acquired the San Francisco Daily Examiner and founded the Hearst Corporation.Ilyse: Only 137 years later, the legacy of the brand continues as the publisher of 24 dailies and 52 weeklies, including papers such as the Houston Chronicle and the San Francisco Chronicle.Damian: Hearst Newspapers has a unique insight into journalism in the U. S. at a local and a national level, even as publishers are under pressure to find fresh ways to fund their newsrooms.Ilyse: We talk with Mike about the value of local journalism and what advertisers need to know about it.Mike: Yeah, so Hearst newspapers has grown a lot. it's funny. I, most people don't know this, is actually 137 year old brand. We've been around, during the same amount of time as some of our friends, down the block or a couple but I think what's really differentiated us is, That, over the [00:02:00] years, we have thousands of employees.We have, award winning content. And, really unique our strong local presence. When people think of. being stale, and I think it's a little bit different here at Hearst Newspapers, is that we've always constantly been evolving. And we take pride in our core product. But I think what is particularly unique is that we have been actively engaging in our local communities over the past dozens of years. And, have really listened to our audiences. So some of the things that, come to light for us is that we are continuing to lean into And we've been [00:03:00] recently as of this year, expanding into, puzzles and gaming. We have, a big comics presence and own, several, large IPs, from Popeye to Betty Boop. And we've also been rethinking about the types of, long form content that we So it's been an evolution over time, but I think what we've really just, continued to lean into is, local community aspect. And we've seen the returns as a result.Ilyse: I had no idea that Hearst is in the IP game so much as it is.Mike: Oh my gosh. I, it's very funny when I first started here, the other side of the floor has a Popeye paraphernalia throughout the office. And I just thought people are really into Popeye. I didn't know that it was anything that we, But it is, one of many, which is fascinating. There's a large video game called Cuphead, which has a Netflix show that is actually something that we also own the IP for. So it's fascinating and [00:04:00] a growing part of our business.Ilyse: Ah, so interesting. Now, with so many, local publications, how does that affect Hearst Newspapers, approach to something like audience segmentation?Mike: Oh, my gosh. It's very funny because each market is completely different. Albany readers that relevant, accurate information that is happening, regardless of where they are.But something we like to say internally is, the national stories are conversations that are being had with everyone, but the local stories are conversations with your friends or your neighbor or your family. And as a result, I think that gives us some level of differentiation. I also joke around that we cover high school sports as if it's the NBA [00:05:00] finals.And while we might not say focus on the Royals, this came up recently, where I was curious in our newsrooms, are we talking about the Royals? Are we providing any content? And the newsrooms have been if the local community isn't really asking for it, that it really isn't, we'll cover it, but it's not just something that we lean into.And I think what I'm very proud of is we stay close to the zeitgeist, but we never follow the zeitgeist. We are really leaning into what our local communities want. And with those boots on the ground doing it, we have just amazing, journalists and, video content creators who are talking to the people.comes out in Ilyse: It's very much community first,Reader driven. Which I'm sure helps when it comes to advertising as well.Mike: Not only our readers react to our content, but also how they react to the adjacent advertising associated to it. And, with [00:06:00] that is something that we're constantly up leveling at the national level and talking to the big brands and agencies on, but just seeing that performance at the local level is a microcosm of the things we could do, but it's very inspiring when you're able to drive business to a small entrepreneur or local business.Damian: Mike, I feel really inspired by, local newspapers. I grew up in Britain and I remember getting the Yorkshire Evening Press. It used to be an evening paper and just that's how I got interested in journalism, just looking at all that.People are interested in what's happening, in their backyard.And at the same time, of course, you get the national stories and international stories in there too. As well as the TV listings that I was interested in. Anyway, I digress. But, that value of local journalism has been, of late, it's been under threat. It's been challenged. And local papers, we've, reported on have basically been, closing newsrooms and the like, across the United States and indeed other countries.But, how do you [00:07:00] think about that, in, in a world where people want local journalism, and how advertisers need those local audiences to advertise too? What's the inherent sort of like challenge and how do you think about that?Mike: Yes, I think about it often. I also think about, coming here is, it's very hard. I don't need to talk myself up or what we do here. but it's a very hard conversation that's being had, our industry touched upon it perfectly. There's a lot of threat and what we've, I think one of the things that makes us unique is that we do, across all of our properties and just Hearst brands, we have the reach. The reach play is not the challenge for us, but it's the ongoing, challenge that we have with advertisers who are looking not to run on it's very funny because people see the value of news, but then you'll talk to an advertiser and I've had advertisers say this to my face that, Hey, we don't run a news.I'm [00:08:00] sorry. We would love to run, but we can't. And, something as a case in point is, the recent eclipse, that, passed over the United We saw from our Eclipse content, when you think of the eclipse, the first thing I did was I went to my, local sites to see where, what time does it start here in New York?Where can I be? Where can I watch it? You can't get that everywhere. And those are the experiences that we are constantly trying to bring to advertisers is that there's a perception with news that it is not brand safe, that you do not want the right, alignment with the news.breaking news content. But the large majority of our content is informative to come, spend with us, we're also trying to challenge them [00:09:00] to think a little bit differently.because I think if we can get past that, I think we're actually going to be funding. The open internet, but also, quality journalism the industry will get there.Damian: That's interesting. Do you think that advertisers minds are being changed a little bit, or is it that there are new tools to offer more nuance in terms of what they can advertise against?Mike: addressability for them and their campaigns, but how do we get smarter about our contextual, And I think what [00:10:00] we're trying to do in partnership with our advertisers is show them that, an article about, again, our high school sports team shooting that basket that won the game is very different from, a gun shooting or some type of gun violence.So those are the parts that we're hoping we can get advertisers to lean into and build with us. But until some of the technology is there, it's gonna be really a very manual, open dialogue that we're having with them. But I think it's changing. I think especially with the cookie deprecating, it, this is my personal feeling is that it's gonna really spring back to the content, to the quality, and to the objectiveness of that content, that's gonna bring advertisers back to us.Damian: There's one more question. You mentioned at the top, the importance of content variety, and you mentioned long form. Journalism and that's another form that's been disappearing un unless it's in national magazines, why is that important and why is a variety of [00:11:00] content an important factor for, a newspaper, publisher, when it comes to finding advertisers to embrace that content and be next to it.Mike: Yeah, it's a great question. What we've seen is the long form content, especially as it relates to the weekends, people really are looking to understand what's happening at the local level, but they're looking for just, I think more than just the two or three paragraphs, about, what's happening there.[00:12:00] They're Spectrum of what is happening at home.And I think that's what's really important for us, is to just show, you can cover the breaking news all day, you can maybe get the hits from, search, and maybe everyone's curious about that advertisers might not want to run against, but the majority of what people are coming to read us on is, what happened yesterday and what should I be doing this weekend?And I think those are things that we can answer for them.Damian: Yeah.Ilyse: Totally, and outside of specific content, [00:13:00] There's been, like, a number of major publications, including the New York Times, that have leaned into the subscription model, especially as, they realize, cookies will be going away, we need to make sure our revenue model is still intact, we need people reading the news, should this be free, it's, we are providing a service, there's a whole list of reasons why, a subscription model has been implemented, and part of that is enlarging, also your footprint through podcasts and other apps, but as we've all seen, not everybody has that kind of scale to do that. What role should advertising play then versus that subscription model?Mike: Yes. Great question. I am a proponent of advertising helps fund the open internet. I will always champion that. And I also say that we have a phenomenal, customer engagement and consumer marketing team that is driving [00:14:00] an amazing subscription business. But I, Looking at the evolution of subscriptions, I think, especially in a market, economic market, that there's a lot of choice now, and especially with things like streaming. I think there's a lot more penny pinching, that is happening. In a past life, I've, really analyzed are people willing to have multiple newspaper subscriptions or are they really just leaning into one and Just have that brand loyalty and something that we've been really taking a hard look at is one, who's subscribing to our Publications but where are they and I think something that we've been taking that look at is it in DMA?Is it out of DMA? So we're catering to that subscription audience. But at the same time, we know there are going to be people that aren't going to subscribe. Maybe they don't have the budget to subscribe and we still want to provide them that same level of quality content and news and informative news.So we've [00:15:00] been a little bit different in that we have two types of, publication formats. We have a free model and a paid model are paid is exactly what it sounds like. It has a lot more of that long form, behind a paywall, investigative journalism, some of that content.  but there's a different type of content that we're sharing that is allowing, people to still stay informed and still, Be engaged in their local community.And what we're hoping is that it will have this flywheel effect where when people see the type of content that we're putting out there,  And that's how we've been thinking about it, and we have a lot of investment on our free model.Ilyse: that note, you mentioned this before that you guys have implemented like more games, and you're not the only ones, looking to gain or find more ways to really gain more first party data, especially as like cookies deprecate. Are there any other [00:16:00] strategies that Hearst is using?I guess looking into to create and build that free content model.Mike: We have a robust first party data set. It's very important to us. I just want to plug that everything the extreme, quality of being privacy compliant and really lean in. We take, we really value the first party data that we have. But with that being To your point, we've been really thinking of different types of experiences that we can unlock for our users., as we mentioned, we have a new site called Puzzmo that if anyone ever wants to play Spell Tower, I highly recommend it. It's an extremely fun game. But what's really great about the Puzzmo site is there's an interactive community aspect to it where you can play games. With your friends, you can time yourself.There's a bit more of a [00:17:00] social activation to it. That we've been really having a lot of fun with and we're seeing the returns back on the well.  And we have, other partnerships that are currently in the works as well that are gonna help, bring different forms of content, like that to, better just help people, understand what they're doing with their time, , with probably a little bit of free time that they have. We just want to help them relax a little bit more.Damian: like that, yeah. I know what you mean, though, about still feeling cooped up. Somehow that pandemic mentality didn't fully go away. I don't know. Mike: It's very true. It's very true. And it's, that's been the fun part. really trying to figure out, I, again, I got, I recently got into hiking because of our content. But just knowing that I can find something to do this weekend, and share it with, friends and family. And Google and there's just a choice. We [00:18:00] help narrow it down for you.Damian: Yeah. Speaking of Google, here's a little segue. We've already mentioned cookie deprecation several times in this conversation.I just wanted to zero in on how you think about that identity conundrum that publishers are facing right now. What are the sort of solves for it that you're thinking about?Mike: Yes. So we've been very leaned into, the identity, I'll call it ecosystem and identity resolution. We are. pretty lucky with that first party data that we do have. Being 137 year old brand and loyal readers we've been collecting this for quite some time. I think we've also been ready for the cookie to deprecate for quite some time.It's been a challenge when things keep getting pushed back, but what we'veIlyse: ready. Sorry. Sorry.Mike: but what really leaning into isMaking sure that, we understand how do we still provide [00:19:00] relevant advertising in a cookie less world. And as a result, we've been leaning into the deterministic side of the house.We have, millions of email email addresses and that we, that people have consented to give us. We're being very smart about it. We are creating opportunities. It's very funny. I think back on newsletters when I first got into this industry, and it was just static creatives that you see when you news.And, but we've been really thinking outside the box of how do we, Utilize these premium more. How do we lean into a newsletter strategy that isn't just, Hey, this is what happened, then I would go into, I would share that we're working really hard on the contextual end as well. because you guys are so local, I think you would be a great source to talk about DMAs. Where would you [00:20:00] say is your largest markets and how do you then incentivize readers?Yes I think about DMAs all the time. I will say that we, while we have, we provide that national reach, I would say our largest DMAs are typically Houston San Francisco and and, Albany, New York. Many, I would say all of Connecticut, just the entire state of Connecticut.We, we have a slam dunk in coverage. But I think what's really interesting, I'll use San Francisco Chronicle as a great example of. And I didn't know this until I really started here, which is people who are reading the San Francisco Chronicle, they're obviously reading it in San Francisco, but a lot of people travel to LA or work in Palo Alto or are traveling all throughout California and are actively reading the Chronicle.And then I have a bunch of friends who've told me this, who are Ex San Franciscans who now live in New York, [00:21:00] who are San Francisco Chronicle subscribers. And what we've been really trying to track is understanding people who have brain loyalty, who want to know what's happening in their community but maybe aren't there anymore.So we've market coverage. And in New York but we want to be there letting them know everything that's happening.So it's been a very fun project of mine, [00:22:00] which is just slicing and dicing the different parts of America to see where are our second, third, large, fourth largest DMAs as it relates to our core key markets. And how do we come up with a different strategy? I think going back to even the whole free, paid, what are we doing with cookies?Of it all is we've actively are looking into the DMA aspect as well to see, maybe paying for a subscription for the San Francisco Chronicle is tough when you're in New York and you're living a busy life. In which case, maybe we do something a little bit different for them. Maybe we provide them different incentives to come back to us.So that's been a something I've been working on actively on the back end, which has been a lot of fun.you see a big surge during an election year?Coincidentally this year has been, normally we do, this year's been a little different. I don't know if it's here in America, at least at a national level, People either have, [00:23:00] already. into the back half of the Damian: That makes sense. Given the fact that there wasn't so much hoopla around primary season, there was no real need for a primary this year, right? On either side.Mike: Exactly. It's, and it's very interesting too, because I think it's thrown some of the political agencies and trading desk for a loop a little bit. there are certain people that we can rely on and we actively are talking to, and even they're like, Hey, I got the money, [00:24:00] but We're doing it laterand uh, you when it comes to budgeting, we budgeted that it would be a little bit more of a stronger year, but I, I think we're hoping that over time, people are gonna pick it back up.Ilyse: Yeah not to resort back to the doom and gloom, but, and bring up a certain Company again. But, so Google recently threatened to remove links and pause investments for California publishers in response to the pending California Journalism Preservation Act, also known as CJPA, due to them having to basically pay a fee to link Californians to news articles. Is this concerning to Hearst at having, of course, properties in California, and if so, why?Mike: I'll say local news is always under pressure. Just over, even ongoing State law as it relates to privacy. I think these are just things that are going to [00:25:00] continue to happen and you know we have to remain steadfast in our position of what we do and forming people and communities as business as usual, but it's something that we are very close to and we are continue to work with a lot of our people Largest partners and the walled gardens to ensure that,But it's something that we just, we, again, it's an, it's another day and another challenge. And I firmly believe we're going to get through it.Ilyse: So Mike, how would you say news blockers are basically an impediment to advertisers? Mike: it does. And I would say it's really from these fourth parties. I think it's the way we're getting tagged, even at a keyword level, lot of our advertisers. Are running if they're not running against an allowless block list on the domain level, which we've had to unblock, we've had people spend with us and want to do a buy with us, and then we later find [00:26:00] out that they, we were on a block list for news.But I think the difficult part as it relates to is someone will not want to run against any type of Donald Trump content or Trump. And. That will get tagged as not brand safe as relates to their advertising buy. But in actuality, the content itself is not brand safe. It's just, I think the, like we, if we said, Hey Trump is the new Republican candidate who needs to is for the candidate that.Content is deemed not brand safe and we remove that we don't think advertiser would run on, but the challenge has been how an [00:27:00] article about Trump being the new candidate versus advertisers, both of those are equal, and we just need to figure out a better way to inform them of those types of things. I always, I again, I'll use shot block list, and we will talk about basketball shots and people shooting three pointers to win games.And that content will be tagged unbrand safe when it's probably the most brand safe community based content that you're going to get. So those are the challenges that we're actively engaging with people on. It's just informing them more about the contextual relevancy and [00:28:00] less on individual keywords and isolation.Ilyse: Awesome.Now, outside of your localized newspapers, how does Hearst newspapers overall market yourselves? Is there a national story you're trying to tell?Mike: Yes, there definitely is. so across newspapers I also will plug, I run a team called Hearst Mosaic we and sell across both newspapers and TV. We have about 86 million uniques monthly. We have a really large audience. We can give you national reach, we can give you local reach, but at the end of the day we can give you performance and we have an engaged audience who wants to hear from you.Ilyse: need to. Damian:and that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back [00:01:00] next week, so stay tuned.Ilyse: The current podcast's theme is by Love and Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesey and Sydney Cairns.Damian: And remember, I'm Damian.Ilyse: I'm Ilyse,Damian: And we'll see you next time. Please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report, a weekly roundup of what's happening in the world of digital media.

Ford’s chief futurist joins The Current Podcast to discuss how preparing for the future is imperative for marketing. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. [00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler. [00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. [00:00:02] Damian: And welcome to Season 9 of The Current Podcast. [00:00:05] Ilyse: And we're kicking off this new season with Jennifer Brace, Chief Futurist at Ford. [00:00:11] Damian: Now, Jennifer has deep roots at Ford. Not only did her father work for the company, but she started working there 20 years ago, first as an engineer. [00:00:20] Ilyse: Now her days are filled with keeping an eye on all things that could impact Ford's business in the future. Everything from AI to the latest consumer trends. Her team is often keeping track of four different futures at once. [00:00:34] We started by asking Jennifer about her title, Chief Futurist. [00:00:39] Jennifer: I'll be honest with you and tell you that, uh, Apparently my future in skills were not intact when I started working for Ford because I would have never expected to be in such a role. That being said, what I do as the chief futurist is I spend a lot of time paying attention to trends and signals, paying attention to [00:01:00] the categories that we refer to as steep, meaning social, technological, economic, environmental, and political. Um, you'll notice I did not mention automotive. That is also by design. And what I like to think of my job is paying attention to all the things that are happening outside of automotive that might come back and impact our business or the environment that we have to operate within. [00:01:24] So, I actually never say that I predict the future, I say instead I help teams prepare for the future. So, Uh, you know, contrary to the, the title of futurist, um, I can't actually see the future. I wish I could. I was disappointed when I found out like the job did not come with a crystal ball that worked or anything like that. [00:01:43] Ilyse: You say that, that does not include automotive. By design, you say. Why is that? [00:01:50] Jennifer: Well, the truth is there's a ton of experts in the automotive space within this company, and I'm happy to lean on them for their expertise and understanding whether it be, [00:02:00] um, the future of, you know, engine propulsion systems or battery technology and things like that. I let them kind of own that space. [00:02:07] And when I want to know more about it, I can talk to them about what they're seeing and how they, they continue to see it evolve. [00:02:13] So a lot of what I do, I like to say that, um, part of our job is to connect the dots so by connect the dots, I mean, if we're seeing something happening, maybe in, education, if we're seeing something happening in mental health. What my job would be to do in my team is we're going to take some time and we're going to say, okay, if we're seeing this happen over here, can we connect the dots to get it to a point where it might come back and impact our business and come back and impact our products or services, um, the environment that we're operating within. [00:02:42] So a lot of the times we're starting at the very high level. Then we talk about how it could impact the market. And then we get to how it could impact Ford or a specific product, depending on, um, what work we're doing at the time. [00:02:53] Damian: One of the questions just based on what you just said, you know, you're sort of looking at current trends. But then how do you kind of extrapolate [00:03:00] from those current trends? A kind of future scenario. And what's the kind of chronology of that? [00:03:05] I mean, what's the time shift? Are you looking out a year, two years? [00:03:10] Jennifer: So the answer is yes. In terms of timeframes, we do look at an array of timeframes. I would think of the one year timeframe is a much clearer. Then say the five or 10 year time frame. So of course, the farther out you go, the more kind of opportunity that the trend could shift or change. [00:03:28] So when we're looking at trends, often what we're doing is number one, we're we have to take data that we see today. Um, but we'll also we'll go back and we'll try to understand whether the trend has momentum. We'll look for other signals to help us Start to quantify that trend for example, if you're understanding where venture capital dollars are being spent or even how many times a term is brought up in, uh, earnings calls, something like that. [00:03:53] So when we're thinking of trends, we're all, my team, we're always trying to add some of that, um, that data element to make sure that we're [00:04:00] proving to ourselves that we're taking it through some checks and, and gateways to ensure that we do believe it's a trend that has some staying power. [00:04:08] And then the other side of that, when we're thinking about how the future might be different, I think of the trends as the things that we feel confident in. We, things are things that we quote unquote know, or we expect to continue moving forward, but the other half of that are, are the things that we don't know, and that's what we would call uncertainties, um, and those uncertainties. [00:04:28] are duly named because they could go in any direction and we don't pretend to know what direction those might go in. We look at both trends and uncertainties, uh, to consider how different futures might play out. [00:04:42] Damian: That's fascinating. And how, given all those different scenarios, do you determine which of the scenarios are the kind of headline scenarios? I mean, I know that you talk about different futures. Do you winnow it down to a specific number of futures? [00:04:58] Jennifer: Yeah. So usually what [00:05:00] we, the way we tend to do it, if we like doing for future matrix, if you will, if you take two critical uncertainties, uh, typically we would pick dependent on the problem. We will pick whatever uncertainties we feel are the most impactful. [00:05:13] So, with the state of EVs, for example, we might look at the regulatory landscape might be one of those where it could become, you know, more stringent or less for that matter. And then we might take another access something say like, um, maybe social acceptance. Of EVs. How's the public feeling about it? [00:05:33] It's kind of a mix of art and science, if you will. [00:05:35] Damian: Do you find that, um, you're ever surprised by something that's gone away? [00:05:42] Jennifer: Yeah. You know, it is a constant. Kind of moving beast, if you will, in terms of where we see momentum and energy. It's rare, to be honest with you, for us to consider something, a trend, we take it through several gateways. So it's rare that it goes away completely. [00:06:00] If it's something that we've considered a trend. [00:06:03] Um, I'm I'm calling it out that way because the way that my team works, we're very Um, scientific with what we consider to be a trend, something that has gone through a lot of gateways for us to believe that it's got lasting power versus something that would be a signal. Now a signal, we don't know what way it's going to go. We don't know if it's got lasting power yet. So it's the type of thing that we would start tracking because it's a signal and we'd want to be paying attention to it. [00:06:28] But, um, the signals don't always grow up to be fully fledged trends. [00:06:33] Ilyse: That's really interesting. I mean, especially when the culmination of all those trends become like four different futures, which is a lot, a lot of futures. [00:06:42] Jennifer: It's a lot to think about, isn't [00:06:44] Ilyse: a lot to look at at once. [00:06:45] Jennifer: feedback sometimes from teams that they're like, but can't we just pick one?  [00:06:51] do we have to think about four? [00:06:54] Ilyse: Yeah, you know, and when you say, um, you guys don't predict but you prepare,[00:07:00] can you explain the difference a little bit [00:07:02] Jennifer: So when it comes to predicting, um, that is saying that we can see the future and this is what it looks like. And the truth is nobody, nobody really has that power. [00:07:13] And that's why we say that we help people prepare because the truth is, if you've made a prediction. And you're wrong. And one of these uncertainties comes up and changes the game. You've put all your eggs in one basket and you're in trouble. I like to say that COVID made our job a lot easier and trying to convince people that betting on a single future could be dangerous, so that is when we're asking teams to be prepared for the future by considering more than one. Uh, more than one scenario. [00:07:45] What we're asking you to do is to kind of recognize where your blind spots might be in your current strategy and how you might pivot if you need to. So it can be used in, you know, in product and, um, in different parts of the business and, and of course, um, also in marketing, [00:08:00] uh, a lot of what we're doing when it comes to the marketing side is trying to understand. [00:08:05] sentiment. So where are people? How are they feeling? What are their needs? How are their, um, how are their needs or sentiments shifting? We'll do things like trying to understand how people feel about Technology like AI is a great, um, a great example that, uh, that we've been talking about quite a bit in the last year or so, uh, and how people are feeling about it and, and understanding where people are at and how we might see that evolving helps us. [00:08:34] Within marketing to understand, um, how consumers might be willing to accept a technology, how they expect it to work into their lives or what they expect out of the brands and the companies that are using a technology, how they expect to hear about it, understand its use, all of those things. So it's understanding where. [00:08:50] where consumers are at, and then starting to think about how, how that might look different moving forward, or maybe how different generations are approaching [00:09:00] it. All of that becomes useful information from a, from a marketing side as we're trying to communicate and connect with our consumers, and, and of course, trying to develop new products and services to meet their needs. [00:09:10] Ilyse: Now, you mentioned COVID and the impact that had, um, and who could have predicted that one? I don't know, maybe you guys did, maybe you knew it was coming up [00:09:19] Jennifer: will say there were lots of warnings. World Health Organization, CDC were certainly warning everybody that pandemics were On the way with how connected we were as a society and, and how, um, how we had seen some signals that the truth is that we saw signals before that there was Mark, uh, MERS, there was SARS, Ebola. [00:09:38] Um, so there were some signals, but most, most would agree that we didn't necessarily take them seriously enough to be prepared. COVID jolted us so much because it was this thing that we all, even though we had, I don't know, maybe just my team, but I think a lot of people would have said, oh, right. I remember that. Oh, I remember that there were some other, um, epidemic type things that [00:10:00] were, that were talked about, but it didn't hit me directly. [00:10:02] So I didn't think about it. Um, But if you really go back, the signals, the signals were there, But I'm not making any predictions on what the next big kind of black swan event will be. [00:10:13] Ilyse: Are there any other, would you say, micro or macro perhaps trends that brands should be paying attention to? [00:10:22] Jennifer: There's a lot of things that are happening that, um, that we all need to be paying attention to. AI, we can't, we can't stop talking about it. Right. It's bringing up a lot of questions, I should say, um, in terms of the way that we operate, the way that we work, the way that we interact and engage with our services, our everything that's around us, [00:10:41] um, the other thing that is very highly connected to that would be trust and how are people. building trust? How are they gaining trust? Do they believe the information that they get? Where is the trusted source of information? what we are certainly seeing from a, um, a high level is that people trust [00:11:00] those around them. [00:11:01] You know, they, they build a trusted circle of friends and family. That's the number one. Number one trusted element in their life is their friends and family and, uh, we continue to see, you know, trusted institutions going down. We are seeing some increases in trust in businesses, but even that has some, some ebbs and flows, big business versus small business or tech company versus, um, versus something else. [00:11:24] I think there's a lot, a lot to be said about how people are feeling in general when it comes to mental health and wellness that continues to be a huge, huge topic. And we do see differences in generations. So we see our younger generations being more likely to say that they have mental health as a stressor, they have more anxiety, they feel lonely more often than our older generations. [00:11:47] Um, the other thing I would say, um, talking about our older generations is understanding how, how they're living. Our boomers are in retirement, but are they really retiring? They're staying super active. They are, they are kind of [00:12:00] redefining, um, their, uh, their golden years, if you will. [00:12:03] Damian: That's really interesting. As a Gen Xer, I feel like, you know, I used to be, uh, the youthful generation, but that suddenly caught up with me, which brings me to my point, which is like, The future is now in lots of ways, and what I mean by that is, are there predictions that you have talked about from five years ago that are now being realized, as it were, in real time, so you can say, chalk that one up to success? [00:12:26] Jennifer: Um, I would say a few years ago, we were talking quite a bit about, um, divisiveness growing in our country and how that might, how that might come into play. But lots of different things with respect to technology and how we see the technologies in our lives starting to, to grow in play apart. I smile a little bit when I say that because I feel like a lot of the conversations I'm in this year, people are talking about AI, like it's brand new thing that we've never heard of before. [00:12:55] And we're suddenly inundated with it. Um, but we've been talking about it for a long time [00:13:00] and even back in 2019 when we asked people about AI, like they were reporting that they didn't understand it or that they were afraid of it and what it could be and what it could do. And we expected that it would continue having a large role in people's lives. And we have certainly seen that, um, grow and more recently kind of, rocket and take off, if you will, as generative AI has taken hold. [00:13:26] Ilyse: So yeah, it seems like you guys knew all along. [00:13:29] Damian: Ha ha, yeah. [00:13:31] Jennifer: I would love, I would love to claim that, but, um, but, [00:13:34] Damian: be modest. Don't [00:13:35] Ilyse: Don't be, yeah, don't be [00:13:36] Damian: modest. You know, we talk about AI, but you know, if you had to sort of pick some other hot topics, as it were, that Ford is, not necessarily hot, maybe they're not hot yet, but maybe they will get hot. But if you had to pick some that Ford is looking at when analyzing these possible futures, are there any? [00:13:52] In your, you know, on your dashboard, if I can use an automotive metaphor that, you know, you're, uh, really focused on. [00:13:59] Jennifer: [00:14:00] I would say topics that we continue to explore, right. [00:14:03] When it comes to, uh, several years ago, autonomous driving was, um, was kind of. A big, big topic that we talked about a lot. And we've seen that evolve a bit, right? So where we're focused more on assisted assistance features, um, continuing to, to help make the drive easier for a driver, um, without, necessarily being able to, to do this full autonomous, uh, Future where we're taking them from, you know, the door of their house to the door of their work without them having to lift a finger. [00:14:33] Um, so we're not there yet. Uh, when it comes to technology. So, so the supportive technologies there, we continue to investigate and we continue to look for ways to make it easier for consumers. So, so leaning into that. [00:14:47] Ilyse: Do you feel, though, that technology overall has kind of caught up with the forward thinking nature of your job? [00:14:54] Jennifer: I mean, absolutely. The good and bad, right, is about technology is that it continues to evolve and it feels like [00:15:00] it's moving faster every day, [00:15:02] often what we say is, it's hard to imagine unimaginable tech because in, you know, 10 or 15 years, if we think of technology as being a thousand times. Stronger or better than it is today. The easiest way we would look for signals might be reading scientific papers. It might be looking at patents often at some of those earlier things that sound almost a little bit weird. years ago, talking robot sounded kind of weird and now. We see examples of that [00:15:34] Damian: Yeah. [00:15:35] Jennifer: place right when we think about AI and chatbots and whatnot. [00:15:40] So if I see something that sounds a little bit. [00:15:43] weird, uh, to try to like squash my immediate reaction of, Oh, that's crazy. Oh, that'll never happen. And instead lean into it and try to understand it and say, well, what happened? What would it be like if that became a thing? [00:15:55] Ilyse: Yeah, you spoke to me briefly for your profile, which is on [00:16:00] TheCurrent. com, and you were telling me a little bit about how AI could eventually work its way into the overall, like, car experience, especially for, like, on the consumer side. [00:16:13] Jennifer: Yeah, sure. So, you know, we're not talking about anything specific when it comes to the technology in our cars, but thinking about it in terms of what we see happening outside of the car and and how that might change the experience. I think that really kind of obvious, easy application is with the way that you are interacting with your car with if you're asking it to do something, being able to have a more natural two way conversation and in a lot of ways, anticipate some of the things that you might need. For example, if you are up, uh, going into the office and let's say you're up an hour earlier than usual or something like that. Wouldn't it be great if your car said, Hey, would you like me to order? Uh, you know, the Venti at Starbucks instead of your [00:17:00] usual ground day? [00:17:00] You're up early today. Creating a relationship or in having it feel like it's almost your friend helping you along, understanding what you need and as, as technologies improve, that is the type of thing I would expect to be able to, to have a, a stronger relationship and for the car to be able to understand, um, not only what you're asking of it, but also to even anticipate What your needs might be as it learns your habits and behaviors and, and starts to, to get smarter. [00:17:30] Damian: Something just occurred to me, you know, I know you're focused on on an automotive kind of scenario. [00:17:35] But do you think about digital advertising and where that's going to? Is that something that intersects with what you think? [00:17:42] Jennifer: There's a lot of questions happening with respect to AI. I think digital advertising is a, is a fascinating space. If we think about ways that AI might help content creation easier. [00:17:52] Um, I would also expect that it would make it easier to connect with specific consumers and understanding what they need or what, um, what might [00:18:00] resonate with them. Understanding, you know, kind of where they're at, whether it be kind of physically where they're at, or even like mentally what space they're in, as we get better understanding of that, I would expect that AI should be able to help with that. [00:18:13] Ilyse: Now, you weren't always a futurist, or even a marketer, you actually come from a background of engineering why did you move into the marketing side of things? And how would you say your engineering background has really helped you in your marketing positions at Ford? [00:18:31] Jennifer: I would say. It was not an expected career move. If I'm honest, it was, uh, an opportunity that came up, uh, when I was in engineering, I spent a lot of time working on our in vehicle technology, on our sync systems, and this was at a time when, uh, I joke we used to always carry like Garmin systems like navigation systems in a bag. [00:18:54] We were carrying them into our cars at the time when I started working on putting a touchscreen directly in the [00:19:00] car and having all of those controls kind of in one spot. I ended up working with our marketing team quite a bit to help them with the communications, both to train our dealers and our customers for how to do these things that were all new at the time. So that was kind of when I got my feet wet with, with marketing was more helping them, uh, because I understood the technical side, but as I've, you know, moved into the marketing organization and understood more about the ways, um, that it is utilized and that it comes into the process, it is super helpful to have a background of understanding the engineering side of the work, and I can help to bring that knowledge into the conversation. [00:19:38] Um, sometimes it's just as simple as, Oh, if we're going and talking to the engineers, let's make sure that we've got data to back up all of these things that we're saying, because. You know, the, that will get them bought in to what we're saying. They don't want to hear a pretty story. They want to see the data. [00:19:53] Damian: When I was growing up, I remember I had this book called The Science in Science Fiction and it explained why certain things were possible in science [00:20:00] fiction films. For instance, you can't see lasers in space. Alright, there was a disappointment to me when I read that. [00:20:05] But my question is, um, you know, you look at the science And you also think about the future. So I'm wondering if you read a lot of science fiction, if you kind of those two things kind of work for you. [00:20:17] Jennifer: Yeah, sometimes. [00:20:18] So I do less of the reading. Sometimes I, I will watch it more just because usually, um, honestly, like. TV and media. They do a great job of pushing our thinking. Like Black Mirror, for example, um, Right. That's a great one. It's, it's kind of a, often it's like these cautionary tales, um, but they really do a good, a good job of taking something that we see today and pushing it into the future and enforcing us to think about how that might happen. [00:20:47] Ilyse: Obviously, a new technology is great and can be helpful, but there can also be, like Black Mirror has shown us, um, some very terrible things that can happen because of those, um, such great [00:21:00] technology. Um, as a futurist, my question to you is, what keeps you up at night? [00:21:05] Jennifer: Where do we begin? Right now, I think it, we are on the cusp of, of some very, um, potentially concerning advancements when it comes to, I think generative AI is a particularly scary one right now because of. How good it's getting at, at faking or at looking and sounding exactly like the real thing. [00:21:29] That one is, is particularly concerning. I think that we're going to see a lot of it. It's a political year here in the U S uh, in terms of the election coming up. So I, I will not be surprised if that comes up often. I'm curious to see how that's going to play out. [00:21:43] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. [00:21:45] We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. [00:21:48] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Cat Fessy and Sydney Cairns. [00:21:54] Damian: Cairns. And remember, [00:21:56] Jennifer: signals don't always grow up to be fully fledged trends [00:21:58] Damian: I'm Damian. [00:21:59] Ilyse: I'm [00:22:00] Ilyse. [00:22:00] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Major League Soccer’s VP of Brand Marketing, Jesse Perl, joins The Current Podcast to discuss how young people are growing more interested in soccer, the league’s deal with Apple TV+, and the importance of building local support for MLS teams. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. TTD_S8_E10_MLS//JESSE PERLMANIlyse Liffrieng: (00:01)I'm Ilyse Liffreing.Damian Fowler: (00:02)And I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse Lieffring: (00:03)And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.Damian Fowler: (00:10)This week we're delighted to speak with Jesse Pearl, the VP of Brand Marketing at Major League Soccer Ilyse Lieffring: (00:16)For Millennials and Gen Zers. It almost feels like the MLS has been around forever, but actually the league wasn't founded until the USA's successful bid to host the 1994 FIFA World Cup. Before then, the US just wasn't a serious contender in the soccer game or football as it's commonly called across the world.Damian Fowler: (00:34)Times have certainly changed, but the league still has to compete with the likes of sports juggernauts like the NFL, which has long reaped higher viewership and fandom in the US. Jesse talks to us about the unique challenges the MLS faces compared to other sports leagues and how he's prepping for the upcoming 2026 FIFA World Cup and how he envisions MLS as a brand.Jesse Perlman: (00:57)I feel really kind of privileged to, you know, be in the role that I am because I think brand really guides how we think about what MLS is and, and what we stand for in the world. And I think there's no real separation, no real daylight between the MLS brand and and MLS. And I think it's really, it's kind of the, the DNA and and the heartbeat of who we are. And I think one of the first things about the MLS brand that's really important is that we are proudly North American. There's a lot of stuff in the world, there's a lot of sports in the world, there's a lot of soccer in the world. And being North American, being kind of uniquely North American, this idea of creating our own North American version of what soccer means is actually really powerful. And I think if, if we look at all these different places across North America, the US and Canada, where MLS is thriving, I think it is about being able to tap into something that really represents, you know, what those cities are.Jesse Perlman: (01:49)There's a kind of an attitude and a spirit of North America that is really kind of transcendent in culture, right? I think North American culture itself is, is an export. And for us it's this idea of being really positive and confident, but in a really sort of positive way. So this kind of infectious positive North American spirit and attitude where we're kind of getting to remix the best of international soccer as well as the best of North American sports traditions and kind of make our own thing out of it. We've got playoffs, right? That's not something that happens in soccer, but I think we just kind of witnessed why it's, why it's great. And all of that sort of creates this idea of, of another part of our brand, which is this idea that, you know, without overstating it, it's a soccer movement here that's happening in, in North America that's kind of sweeping North America. So how we get to all that really is through our supporter groups, our supporter culture, the TFOs, the chance, the Kapos, all the things that they kind of bring to the party is, um, it's really kind of the secret sauce of all of this.Damian Fowler: (02:45)And what's fascinating about this as well is the fast evolution of this. I want to sort of date myself and say I arrived in this country just after college in 1994, and that was when the US last time the US hosted the World Cup and now we we're seeing it's gonna be hosting it again with Canada and Mexico in 2026. So that's basically three decades, you know, and you've seen this tremendous growth of professional soccer. Could you talk a little bit about those bookends and you know, how you've seen the trajectory of the sport, how quickly the sport has grown in those three decades?Jesse Perlman: (03:16)It's pretty staggering, and I think even the biggest optimist, I don't think would've bet that we'd get to where we are as quickly as we did. The 2026 World Cup is such a great kind of marker to, to kind of measure these things because you know, our story, the story of MLS starts with the 1994 World Cup for sure, right? We fulfilled what the hope and the potential, you know, was, you know, we launched in 96, you know, on the heels of the 94 World Cup. And by the way, that's in no way to say that we're declaring victory in its job done for us. I think to be in 29 cities, to have the amount of soccer specific stadiums we have to have the support that we have in these MLS communities that are, you know, settin record attendance to look at media partnerships like Apple that I think are rewriting the scripts in sports media to have the current reigning ballon d’or World Cup champion greatest player of all time messy here in our league, you know, to look at the young up and coming players, homegrown players, stars from, you know, some of the most storied teams in in South America and players that'll also, you know, will sell for record fees that go on to win Champions league games.Jesse Perlman: (04:26)And, and so I think it's really, I think the complete picture of everything that we could have hoped to set out to do. But for sure, you know, the the best is still yet to come.Ilyse Lieffring: (04:35)But you know, North America, particularly the US I would say, aren't known for being big soccer fans. So what would you say are like the challenges and then the opportunities of marketing soccer in this context?Jesse Perlman: (04:49)You know, I do think it's changing when you look at youth, when you look at Gen Z, when you look at six to 14 and 14 to 18, and these critical ages of where fandom is really, you know, set and takes root, soccer's a top sport of interest, that's been the trend and that trend is continuing and it's really favorable for us as a sport. You know, millennials, right? Are, are now parents of young kids and, and we know the influence that parents have on the interest of, of their children. And there are some kind of studies came out, uh, recently naming MLS as a top 10 fastest growing brand along among millennials right there alongside our, our great partner, you know, apple tv. So especially as marketers means that we've just gotta constantly think about how do we infiltrate culture in all kinds of creative and, and unexpected ways that are, that are true to us.Jesse Perlman: (05:36)We've got nothing but respect and admiration for the other North American sports leagues, whether that's the NFL or NBA or I think what we've got all is respect and admiration. I think we're also able to kind of look at, you know, some of those traditional North American leagues as traditional. We really feel like we get the permission to to be the enemy of tradition sometimes. And, and, and we love that. So I think kind of being able to stand for the things that differentiate us is ultimately how I think we'll continue to, to win over time.Ilyse Lieffring: (06:03)Are there any numbers you can point to that show the growth of the MLS over these past three decades?Jesse Perlman: (06:09)Big picture. There's, you know, there's probably a few things that are, that do really kind of stand out and I think kind of signal the continued kind of really explosive growth. Um, you know, one of the most important in sports is attendance. And we're continuing to set record attendance year over year. We just had another record year. That's a huge indicator. You know, ultimately there's um, we're in entertainment, right? And we're competing against, you know, sitting at home on your couch and binge watch and Netflix and you know, going to the latest restaurant and whatever else you can do. And I think for people to be motivated to go out there, go to the stadiums in record numbers kind of says it all. And I think in addition to that, we can look at things like valuation of an MLS franchise. You know, I believe LAFC was reported in Forbes as just crossing the, uh, the billion dollar threshold for franchise valuation.Jesse Perlman: (06:56)I could tell you when I joined in 2007, 2008, that was not the value of an MLS franchise. And all those kind of economic indicators I think are, are really healthy. And um, even if it's not necessarily an exact quantified metric, you know, the ability to go out there and, and have a, you know, media partnership like Apple again, right, or Adidas partnership in these best in in category global brands, I think again is another indicator. And I think the last one that's worth mentioning is the brick and mortar kind of growth. Here again, I think when I started we had, you know, a handful of soccer specific stadiums and now virtually all of our teams are, if they're not already playing in a soccer specific stadium, they're in the process of open the doors on one.Damian Fowler: (07:35)One other thing that stands out to me is as to go back to that nineties thing, I remember when I came here, I could, it was hard to actually find, you know, international games on the dial, on cable channels. Obviously in the last few years we've seen this sort of flourishing of the game across many streaming channels. I mean, you can watch the Premier League on Peacock, you can watch Champions League on Paramount Plus and media and the presence of media is such an important driver of fandom. Is that one of the big factors for the MLS?Jesse Perlman: (08:07)No doubt. Similarly, right? Like growing up, you know, in the nineties being a huge soccer fan, right? You had to work so hard to seek it out. I remember running to the Barnes and Nobles to get my monthly magazine of 442 or World Soccer and um, that was how you stayed current. Now there's so much access, right? Ultimately I think that's a good thing for us, more people watching more soccer. I think it just, you know, increases the amount of interest and curiosity and, and conversation. And there's certainly a lot of, you know, competition for eyeballs. And you know, what we're trying to win more than anything is as hearts and minds. And, um, it's great for you to be a fan of other soccer teams and clubs and leagues and we really do embrace that. But if you're here in the US and Canada, you really can't get up close to that, right? And so being a fan of MLS just means something different. That's where we really feel like it's a huge differentiator that access, you know, to kind of be a part of an MLS community.Damian Fowler: (09:00)Can you talk a little bit about the significance of the Apple TV season pass?Jesse Perlman: (09:05)It's a game changer. It really is in so many ways. I mean, I think the first thing for me is as a marketer, as a, as a kind of brand leader, there's probably no brand that's more recognized and admired than Apple on the planet, the ability for us to become an Apple brand, which I think is what's happened, right? It changes the perception, the reach of Apple, the scale, the reach, the deep love and admiration for their brand that people have. All those are really just kind of the starting points. But when you get inside the sort of Apple world and you kind of realize and learn like how many incredible layers there are to their growing and expanding ecosystem of products and services and ways for MLS to show up and, and be a part of that, you know, we just officially wrapped our first season together.Jesse Perlman: (09:50)When we kind of think about all the things we were able to do as co marketers, even year one, it's been a really fantastic starting point and we had some incredible activations around Messi, his game here in New York. We were able to work with our friends and partner with them at New York, Red Bulls and Apple to have this, you know, kind of takeover in Times Square of a live viewin party that sort of traveled around the world. That moment of people gather in Times Square to to watch Messi on a giant Times Square billboard. And I think some of the real sort of inside culture things that we did with Apple Music, you know again, partnering with great club like Nashville had a kit inspired by a Johnny Cash, the Man in black kit working with the Johnny Cash Estate and Apple Music. We all kind of came together working with some incredible music artists and talents to cover Johnny Cash songs. And so these really kind of integrated kind of campaigns that we were able to to do. Um. Damian Fowler: (10:42)I wanted to ask you, uh, Jesse, about the kind of cross-fertilization with international leagues. You know, I'm a big fan of Liverpool, I watch the Premier League every weekend and you know, obviously there's La Liga and then, you know, la bundesliga, all of those things, you know, and football from south of the border. How does that work? How is that an important factor in driving fandom and is it a sort of cross fertilization or is it like a separate kind of group of fans?Jesse Perlman: (11:07)No, I think, I think it's really additive are clubs that are really succeeding and have these, the thriving kind of fan bases that they do. Those fans are also fans of other international soccer teams and, and we love that it's part of the, the thing that we love about soccer as a sport for anybody that truly loves it, it's the kind of international dimension is like what makes it different than other sports, right? For me personally, it's been a lens to kind of learn about the world and learn about other cultures and it really kind of expands people. We're never shying away from that. I think we want everybody who's a fan and has a team in, whether it's in, you know, the Premier League or the Bundesliga or Serie A or anywhere else around the world, or Argentina or Mexico, Liga MX, you know, we want them to know that they're invited to still be loyal fans of, of those teams, whether it's passed down from generation to generation or something they discovered on their own. 'cause all that is complimentary, right? I think, you know, that's part of what being a soccer fan, you know, looks like. So we, we embrace it.Ilyse Lieffring: (12:05)As much as it's a global game. It's very much made up of very localized fans at the same time, how important are local efforts in each city? For instance, building stadiums or the infrastructure, how is that key to driving that local support or community supports?Jesse Perlman: (12:25)Really as important as anything. And I think it's been what's defined this incredible growth period for MLS. We were kind of chatting earlier about like what it means to be North American and the importance of this kind of brick and mortar investment and building these like incredible cathedrals to soccer. And I think not just building stadiums, but building 'em in the right places, right? Building these in the kind of heart of the downtowns. I think it's made all the difference and, and continues to, and it's really timely. I mean, we just had MLS cup in [email protected] field, brand new state-of-the-art best in sports anywhere in the world placed to watch live sports. That stadium was rocking, you know, it was completely electric fan, 28, 30,000 strong in the rain, right? Singing enchanting for 90 minutes and the streets were alive, the city was alive. And you don't have to go back that far to just kind of be reminded of how this franchise went through like one of the most traumatic things you could go through in sports, right?Jesse Perlman: (13:20)There was ownership change, there was concern about what the crew still be around. It's an emphatic like not only are they here, but they just won MLS cup again. On and off the field I think it's so important that it's so local. You know, I think what Columbus represents to crew fans is, you know, is so different than the team that, that came to play them in Columbus. These clubs, they represent really different ideas and communities and, and fan bases, but the common thread is that what they really represent is their cities and, and the idea of their cities in this moment in 2023, I don't think there are brands that better represent Columbus and you know, how it sees itself. I think it being local and localized and really kind of deeply rooted in these, you know, local communities and cultures has been the difference maker.Damian Fowler: (14:07)As I mentioned, I'm a Liverpool fan, and Anfield is, you know, very much a Liverpudlian tradition and they have the traditions there. And at the same time, if you look at the field, it's absolutely international. And so it's that beautiful kind of conjunction of the local and the global. Wanted to ask you about that international presence, you know, the, the MLS of course has been drawing headlines. How do you see the star power playing into your marketing efforts?Jesse Perlman: (14:31)It's another part of what makes sports sports, right? Star players. It's another part of why people tune into sports, why they care about sports and love sports. And you know, certainly people are fans of teams and clubs and, but people also really care about players, right? And some of them will become fans of a team because they're fans of a player. The other thing that's so special about sports, and I think even more so with soccer is who's gonna be the next star? The idea of like the emerging stars, especially we think about these homegrowns the future of the US men's and for the US and Canada national teams. And you know, I think as we look at, you know, Messi, right? We're equally excited about Benjamin Cremaschi learning from a guy like Lionel Messi every day, right? These kind of, you know, future world beaters that are coming through MLS and we're really spending a lot of time and, and energy and focus on how do we continue to hype up all the right players, but especially these, these up and commerce, these emerging stars and really sort of build their brands on and off the field and help more people kind of, you know, fall in love with them because they have incredible stories and we're gonna be hearing about them for years to come.Damian Fowler: (15:35)I heard that the Messi shirt in that iconic pink sold out instantly, impossible to get.Jesse Perlman: (15:41)It is, uh, I can tell you firsthand, I, uh, I failed as an uncle on, uh, on Hanukkah to come up with the goods for my nephews. So it is truly, it is a scarce product.Ilyse Lieffring: (15:51)You know, along with more like just sports documentaries out there on streaming channels, there's also like the rise of live sports at the same time. How would you say the rise in like live sports and streaming contribute to the rise of soccer overall in the us?Jesse Perlman: (16:06)Well, I think it's only increased the amount of soccer that's available for sure. I think we've got more access to more soccer here in the US than just about anywhere in the world. You know, there's probably a lot of people that'd be surprised to learn that, but you know, as a Liverpool fan, I'm sure you'd agree, there's a lot of people in the UK that like, man, that is a pain point in life is just how hard it can be to, to kind of watch the, so you wanna watch and the amount of blackouts and how you kind of just gotta jump through hoops to, uh, be able to watch games sometimes. And so we're spoiled for choice here, and I think streaming has only increased that to me it's an indicator of this is the sport for the future, right? Gen Z and, and younger fans, linear TV is not where they're spending their time, right? They're spending their time on devices and streaming and places like YouTube and, and places like Apple tv. And so I think it's great for us that we're ahead of the curve on that respect as far as kind of live games, and I think we're just so well positioned for that.Ilyse Lieffring: (16:59)The US also gets to host the 2026 FIFA World Cup along, of course with Canada and Mexico. How are you planning to ladder up your marketing to this massive global event,Jesse Perlman: (17:13)I guess can't reveal all the secrets, but No, it's very much in focus for us and to really be thinking multi-year about not just how does the marketing kind of ramp up to the World's Cup, but how does all of our activity as a business really deliberately think about what that's gonna mean for us. I think what's really interesting is during the World's Cup is gonna be the noisiest loudest, most crowded for anybody else marketer. I think everybody's gonna be trying to find a way to talk about the World Cup and soccer, whether, whether they've got the official, you know, FIFA rights to do that or not. And I, and I think all that noise is gonna be, is gonna be good, good, right? I think soccer is just gonna really bleed into the mainstream conversation, uh, in a way that'll kind of eclipse, um, you know, anything before it.Jesse Perlman: (17:59)But I think as, as you know, as marketers here at MLS I, I think the most critical moment for us is actually gonna be what do we do the day the World Cup ends? You know? And I think that's really the incredible opportunity for us to seize because, you know, that kind of World Cup Fever that everybody's gonna catch, the World Cup's gonna be incredible, but it's gonna, it's gonna come and go. There's gonna be a lot of people here that aren't gonna be able to make it to World Cup games that maybe wanted to or maybe wanted to take their kids to it, or it got priced out, or there's only so many seats in so many games. And for MLS to really make sure everybody knows where they can find us, how they can find us, again, I think meet that, meet that moment is, is gonna be, uh, I think it's really gonna be the, the big unlock for us.Damian Fowler: (18:46)And that's it for season eight of the current podcast. Stay tuned for our next season of interviews with the industry's top marketing leaders.Ilyse Lieffring: (18:54)The current is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The Trade Desk team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat VesceDamian Fowler: (19:02)And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report, our weekly digest of what's making news across the open internet. And remember,Jesse Perlman: (19:14)Especially as marketers, means that we've just gotta constantly think about how do we infiltrate culture in all kinds of creative and, and unexpected ways that are, that are true to us.Damian Fowler: (19:25)I'm Damian,Ilyse Lieffring: (19:26)And I'm Ilyse. Damian Fowler: (19:27)And we'll see you next time.

Now firmly entrenched in Americans’ shopping habits, Instacart is eyeing the growing retail media space. Laura Jones, CMO of Instacart, joins The Current Podcast to share the strategy behind the company’s tie-ups with Peacock and Roku and how she’s reaching shoppers by framing them as the COOs of their households. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. Damian: (00:01)I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse: (00:02)And I'm Ilyse Liffreing AndDamian: (00:04)Welcome to this edition of the current podcast.Ilyse: (00:10)This week we're delighted to talk with Laura Jones, the chief marketing Officer of Instacart.Damian: (00:16)Laura has been on a rampage at Instacart since she left Uber and joined the company. In June, 2021, Laura launched the brand's first integrated brand campaign, built an internal creative studio and performance media function, and scaled the marketing department five times to more than 150 people. WhatIlyse: (00:35)Started as a grocery delivery service quickly boomed during the pandemic to the point where Instacart now has over 7 million monthly active orders and works with 1400 retailers growing into areas like retail media, on and off its platform.Laura: (00:55)So Instacart started just over a decade ago and started out as a grocery delivery company. And then when you fast forward to today, the business looks a lot different, the world has changed a lot, there's been a global pandemic and we've come out the other side and Instacart has really evolved over the course of this journey. So we've transformed from being just grocery, just delivery to now a service that has many more retailers on the platform. Of course, uh, most of America's top grocers, but other verticals that we serve like beauty with Sephoras, um, home improvement with Lowe's, as well as of course different modalities. So there's delivery, there's pickup, and we've extended into, uh, B2B offerings as well. So we have a retail enablement platform that our retailers use to power some of their online grocery services and pickups and really continuing to innovate now even getting into in-store.Laura: (01:54)So really thinking about how, you know, in a post pandemic world, customers are really shopping in a more omnichannel way. It's not just delivery, it's not just in-store, it's much more of a hybrid. So we've developed technologies like caper carts or carrot tags, other in-store tools that help bring some of the magic of online shopping into that in-store experience. So you can see that the company has really evolved and as a result, you know, the way that we're thinking about our brand and the future of innovation at the company has to evolve and keep pace as well.Ilyse: (02:30)On that note, from a brand perspective, how have you really worked to evolve the identity of Instacart from that delivery service to a major media platform? NowLaura: (02:40)We really wanted to build across all four sides of the marketplace and make sure that we were building a brand that would mirror the dynamism is of the business. So really wanted to root ourselves in, in our heritage and in our core equity, which of course is the carrot, and really stretch that, um, into a new design system that would enable us to show up and in a really seamless way in all these new different touchpoints that that we have. And so a lot of what my journey has been has been really trying to build out that marketing team across the four sides of the marketplace and build out all the different functions. So of course, continuing to double down on our performance marketing strength, but also building out functions like product marketing, brand marketing, making sure we have great co-marketing teams to partner with both our retailers and our advertisers so that we can go to market in partnership with all of them. And what that enables for us is not just to be a marketing team, but also to help enable other marketing teams. From a co-marketing standpoint, we have, uh, 5,500 brands on our platform from category leaders to emerging brands. And this next chapter of marketing is really about partnering with those brands as well as with our retail partners to make sure that we are going to market using all of our channels together and really helping provide insights to help each of their business grow.Ilyse: (04:12)How do you feel all these additives have really helped differentiate the brand, not only from a consumer standpoint, but perhaps to advertisers asLaura: (04:23)Well? One of the things that this has unlocked for us is the ability to do true full funnel marketing. So instead of just capturing inbound demand through, um, those classical performance channels, we've also been able to really start to generate more demand by going out there and reaching a broader audience and telling a more robust story across channels. So we see that by showing up in both upper and lower funnel and doing so in a coordinated way, we're able to really grow the category and deepen the use cases for existing users as well. So it's been a really critical, uh, business driver that we can go out with a full funnel program. Then from a advertiser standpoint, because of this depth that we have and the level of sophistication that we have when it comes to our own consumer marketing, I think that gives us a, a really thoughtful edge when it comes to thinking about how we're building tools for our advertisers.Laura: (05:23)So of course, I think the reason that most advertisers come to Instacart in the beginning is just because we are so close to the point of purchase, we are quite literally at the point of purchase. So what we find is that our ads on average deliver more than a 15% incremental sales lift and in some cases twice that for our brand partners. So it's a really valuable service to, to our partners, but again, inspired by our own journey, we've thought a lot about creating more spaces in the upper funnel for our advertisers. So of course, sponsored product listings and pricing and promotional discounts are, are wonderful, but once you've tapped out that kind of low hanging fruit from a demand standpoint, you need to generate more demand. What I was talking about, you know, from our own first party experience and the way that we do that is through introducing new formats that help drive more consideration for consumers that might be a bit higher up in that purchase funnel.Laura: (06:19)And so what that looks like for us are shoppable video ads, shoppable display ads in ways to help introduce customers to new categories or products that they might not have been actively considering before that shopping session, but we can actually really make that case to get them focused on it, get their attention, and then help drive that purchase and really be able to measure again, the impact of, of those different formats. The final frontier, which I think will bring the two together and that we've started on this year is that co-marketing I was mentioning. So we can move up the funnel within our own platform, but I think the, the really exciting piece for me is what does it look like when we move off platform and go to market together with a brand partner and really make their existing multi-channel campaigns shoppable regardless of what channel they're occurring on. Um, the co-marketing campaign we did earlier this year with AB InBev, um, in the NFL playoffs, um, making their TV campaign shoppable and integrating it with our CRM system so that we could deliver push notifications timed to hit folks as they're viewing TV ads. And we've done a ton of that over the past year and we're really excited to see the momentum that this program has in addition to our on-platform ads.Damian: (07:37)Could you talk a little bit more about how you use customer data to kind of close that gap between the top and the bottom of the funnel?Laura: (07:46)We take data protection and privacy very seriously. We don't tell consumer data to our retail partners, nor do we share competitive data across retailers or brands. Uh, what we do do is leverage anonymized, aggregated insights. And I think that's especially powerful in this world where our industry is grappling with signal loss and looming third party cookie deprecation. And so that's why this data is really valuable and can be provide a lot of insights to our partners as we think about, you know, how can we more effectively target folks at different stages in the funnel. From our standpoint, we have an incredibly deep understanding of online purchase behavior. Our customers are building large baskets, they're spending a lot of time to engage. They're doing their primary weekly grocery shop on the platform. And so we have a lot of insights about the, the purchase behavior that underlies that.Laura: (08:44)We can also surface insights about complimentary or adjacent purchasing behavior. So for example, if someone's buying peanut butter, it's pretty likely that they might also be buying jelly. And and some of those are obvious, like the ones I just described, but some of them are maybe not as obvious. So cat and dog food customers are more likely to purchase coffee on Instacart than the average Instacart consumer, that that is not as obvious as peanut butter and jelly or customers who buy diapers are more likely to also purchase jerky and trail mix. So if you imagine, you know, being a marketer and having access to this data, it really helps you, number one with the targeting. And number two, just getting those kind of deeper insights that help you have those aha moments that might help you think about your consumer in a whole new way.Ilyse: (09:28)Now in 2022, you introduced display ads onto your platform. How important are these units really to those big CPG companies? And then how do these display units actually help the smaller brands compete with the larger ones?Laura: (09:43)Yeah, so display ads are a great way for brands looking to bring engaging, targeted creative content to consumers. And this really helps with driving brand awareness, new product introductions and inspiration while people are browsing those digital aisles. And so these kinds of top of funnel units, um, can be especially useful I think for emerging brands that might be less familiar to consumers or for new or emerging categories where there might be more education required. And then for larger brands, shoppable display units are a great way to showcase complimentary products across the portfolio and really help with that regimen building. And it does so all within one shoppable ad unit. And of course that's a adjacent to all of the other kinds of ad units that A CPG can purchase, like a sponsored product listing or pricing and promotional discount. So you can really tell a story and then provide incentives for consumers to convert and get that full closed loop measurement all at once.Ilyse: (10:44)This past advertising week, New York Instacart announced it would begin to work with brands to reach customers off platform for brands this can turn their Instacart approach into more of an omni-channel strategy, basically allowing them to reach Instacart's customers across channels like CTV and display. Can you describe the value in this arrangement for advertisers?Laura: (11:08)What we're really trying to do here is provide a way for our CPG advertisers to leverage our data across all their media buys. You know, it really helps us realize this vision of leveraging data to help our partners grow their businesses and doing so in a way that is even more flexible for them. And so they're able to layer their programmatic campaigns with exclusive Instacart data to build category based segments. Like for example, somebody who's bought their category but not their brand, somebody who's bought their brand lapsed brand purchasers or someone who's never purchased with their brand. And this kind of targeting as a marketer is of course so valuable. Um, and we're really excited to have this pilot live and to start looking at how we can continue to lean into this capability and really enable our partners to grow their businesses.Damian: (12:04)Now you recently announced that you'd be bundling, uh, NBCU streaming service peacock for Instacart plus subscribers. You've also partnered with Roku. So I'm wondering if you could talk about the natural synergies between Instacart and streaming platforms like that.Laura: (12:19)The customer we serve, we like to think of as the COO of their household. They're often someone who might be a, a busy parent or a busy individual who's got a lot going on. And oftentimes, you know, there are folks that really do enjoy, um, in that limited spare time they have. They can be streaming their favorite shows and getting their grocery shopping done at once. So it's a real win-win. And and it's also, you know, I think from an advertiser standpoint, exciting because again, with Roku, if you have somebody who's watching an ad and shopping on Instacart, again, you have that ability to really start to close the loop in terms of the incremental impact of those ads as, as evidenced through Instacart purchase data.Damian: (13:01)Could you say a little bit more about how that gap between CTV and shoppable ads is closing? I know we touched on that earlier in the conversation, but how has Instacart as a media platform really enabled this kind of connection?Laura: (13:14)You know, I think brands often struggle with attribution from top of funnel, and this is something of course, you know, even when we're going out with top of funnel, it's hard. It's, it's a harder measurement journey than, you know, click-based ads. Um, and so our closed loop measurement is able to offer that higher confidence in media buys. And so being able to actually measure the impact of off platform ads and see that born out in, in the data from Instacart and showing the incrementality of those ads has been really huge for our advertisers.Damian: (13:53)What would you say will be a good example of how that discovery at the top of a funnel and performance with shoppable ads kind of merged?Laura: (14:00)A great example of that was our partnership with AB InBev this year, um, in the lead up to the Super Bowl. And so we were able to partner with Michelob Ultra and they were the first partner to create an Instacart co-marketing campaign that leveraged this shoppable capability via a QR code. We were able to really support them in this full funnel campaign that was running across linear social C-T-V-O-T-T and making sure that for every time they were out there with a brand message, there was a clear path to conversion for that consumer. What is so exciting about that is that for us, we get to show up with a brand that people absolutely love and really have a, a strong use case for of course, um, beer and, and football as we all know, go very well together. Um, and for them there was the ability to drive consumers to purchase and to really, you know, go from watching an ad to being able to have that product delivered in as fast as 30 minutes.Laura: (15:06)That's actually really game changing and I'm so excited when I think about what we could do with that. And especially when you start to layer in other channels like CRM and social and the ability for that kind of concurrent consumption connected to an entertainment event, I think could be really game changing. And we're seeing this really starting to pay off. So in Q3, our advertising and other revenue was up 19% year over year, and this is really driven by stronger than anticipated advertiser spending. And when we think about next year, we're really excited to continue to show up in these key seasonal moments, whether that's cold and flu, football, spring cleaning, or Mother's Day.Damian: (15:44)That's interesting. Do you have any brand campaigns coming up in 2024 that you are able to talk about?Laura: (15:51)We are currently shooting a really great set of spots against the cold and flu season. Uh, it's funny because it's not the most glamorous time of year, so, you know, when we were initially talking about showing up with a campaign, I was a little bit like, oh, is this really how we wanna show up as a brand? But then when I thought about our value proposition, which is really taking care of that COO of the household, and these people are caregivers and we help them take care of themselves and their families. So we're excited to lean into that moment and hopefully tell some stories that really resonate with consumers and and with our brand partners.Ilyse: (16:30)How do you think about the evolving Instacart brand looking towards the futureLaura: (16:37)From a brand identity standpoint? We've got an amazing foundation to build equity with from a brand storytelling standpoint. We've got an endless trove of stories to tell because every day in the life of a, of a busy household conductor is is full of those moments of trials and tribulations and moments where Instacart can really come in and, and help offer that care for that head of household. So I think that in the year ahead, we've got a great year ahead of us and a ton of momentum from a brand standpoint and only made stronger by the strength of our retailer and CPG brands when we show up together in the market.Damian: (17:19)And that's it for this edition of the current podcast. We'll be back next week. So stay tuned.Ilyse: (17:25)The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Ley and Cat Festi.Damian: (17:34)And remember, theLaura: (17:35)Really exciting piece for me is what does it look like when we move off platform and go to market together with a brand partner and really make their existing multi-channel campaigns shoppable regardless of what channel they're occurring on.Damian: (17:50)And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave as a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report, our weekly roundup of what's making news in digital media. I'm eis and I'm Damien and we'll see you next time.

BBDO created the iconic Snickers “You’re Not You When You’re Hungry” campaign. The agency’s President and CEO, Andrew Robertson, breaks down the power of humor. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Damian: (00:01)I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse: (00:02)And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.Damian: (00:04)And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.Ilyse: (00:10)This week we sit down with Andrew Robertson, who has been the president and CEO of BBDO Worldwide since 2004.Damian: (00:19)No doubt over his career, he's had a bird's eye view of creative trends in the ad industry. And last year he gave a keynote presentation in the Palai at Cannes Lions and why humor is one of the most effective tools in advertising.Ilyse: (00:32)And yet he pointed out that funny ads have been on the decline for 20 years. He reminded the crowd that having a laugh is also good for business.Damian: (00:42)Since that talk, Cannes Lions has added a humor category to its awards for 2024. Maybe we have Andrew Robertson to thank for that.Ilyse: (00:58)Before we start, we thought it might be a good idea to take a listen to some recent funny ads, starting with this one from T-Mobile starring Bradley Cooper. And of course his momAd: (01:10)Does T-Mobile really have a 5GAd: (01:12)America's largest 5G network. Try it again. OhAd: (01:15)My God, you look like a flamingo inAd: (01:17)This. Okay. The America's largest, largest five network network. How can I help you? Hi, how are you? , can I help you? You'reAd: (01:26)Making me crazy.Damian: (01:27)And here's a bit from Workday's. Big game spot titled Rockstar featuring. You guessed it. Real rock stars like Kiss Front man, Paul Stanley, Joan Jet, Billy Idol, and Ozzy Osborne.Ad: (01:39)Hey, corporate types. Well, you stop calling each other rock stars. You'reAd: (01:42)A rockstar. You are a rockstar.Ad: (01:44)Rock stars, please.Ad: (01:46)You know what it takes to be a rockstar. I've trashed. I rums in 43 countries. I was on the road since I was 16.Ad: (01:53)I've done my share of bad things. Also your share of bad things.Damian: (01:57)And finally, we are big fans of Liquid Death here at the current. Their latest dad takes a bold and unconventional approach to raise awareness about plastic waste on the planet. And it does this while making a smile and cringe all at the same time.Ad: (02:12)Thanks to our proprietary and somewhat pain-free surgical method, a sexier planet begins with a sexier you.Ad: (02:22)Now I'm practically oozing with beauty.Damian: (02:26)Thanks. Liquid death.Ad: (02:28)Now we can use old plastic bottles to enhance anything. And I mean anything.Ilyse: (02:34)Oh my gosh. Ouch. , that's a good one. Well, the good news is there's plenty more funny where that came from, but let's hear from Anju first.Andrew: (02:44)I gotta be honest. When I made the proposal in the presentation that there should be a line for humor, it was really only to get another joke into the presentation. Um, but that was really the only reason I did, did it. However, I'm really thrilled that they have gone ahead and done it. That was a turning point. I think it was a turning point in terms of the work that was getting awarded at Cannes. I think it was a turning point at, in terms of the work that was being entered. Um, and I think my, I think my presentation was just, you know, the right thing at the right time. It was something I wanted to get off my chest. And judging by the response from the audience and the feedback I got subsequently, it was something a lot of people wanted to hear at that moment.Damian: (03:30)Let's go back to your presentation a little bit. I I loved it. You kicked it off with this fantastic story about when you first learned that humor sells. I, I wonder if you wouldn't mind recapping a bit of that story.Andrew: (03:43)When I was, uh, a student, I had a number of kind of part-time gigs. And one of them was selling vax vacuum cleaners door to door. And for those who don't know, it was a very powerful vacuum cleaner developed by a dairy farmer who adapted one of his milking machines. And it was by far the best suction you could get out of a, out of a vacuum cleaner. But they were bright orange and they weighed like 90 pounds and cost 300. It was a difficult thing to sell. It was a difficult thing to carry, frankly, from door to door. But I learned, I learned a couple of things. One was that sometimes, um, when people believe that what they've got is good enough, you have to find a way to dramatize the fact that it isn't. And in the case of the vax vacuum cleaner, the thing that worked, the thing that could convert people was if I could show them that something they thought was really clean was in fact full of dirt and that vaxx could solve that for them.Andrew: (04:38)And by far the most compelling demo of that was to vacuum their bed, their mattress. 'cause everybody likes to think their mattress is really clean, but it, but with a vax vacuum, the mattress, and you just get all sorts of terrible stuff coming out of it. And if I could get to that demo nine times outta 10 people would spend the 300 pounds and, and buy the bright orange machine. So I used to like, I'd ring the doorbell and nine times outta 10, the door would be open by a woman. And I was standing on the doorstep and I would say, my name's Andrew Robertson. I'm presenting the Vxx Vacuum Company. Can we go up to your bedroom? And most of the time they laughed. Most of the time they laughed. And then once they'd laughed, we could then have a conversation where I'd say, well, I really do want to go up to your bedroom because I want to show you just how powerful this vacuum cleaner is. And, and most of the time it worked. But the point I learned was that, um, overcoming resistance to your cell is, is really important. And the best way to do that, the best way to disarm people and to make them like you, is to make them laugh.Damian: (05:45)You had some kantar research that showed a steady decline in the use of humor, not just the last five years, but over the last 20 years. What does the data show about why humor declined? I suppose?Andrew: (05:56)I mean, there could be a load of things. I think one of the, one of the big trends across that period has been the emergence of the importance of purpose, brand purpose. Um, and I think that that along with that has come, um, a belief and I, but it's a belief that I don't share that, uh, if you have a serious purpose, you should find a way of bringing it to life in a serious way. Um, and, and I think that may account for some of it. Uh, there's certainly, if you look at the data drops in the use of humor in advertising according to that Kantar data during the, um, global recession in 2008, 2009, and then again during the pandemic. And I, I think that is a result of people believing, you know, these are difficult times and people are having a really rough and we need to make sure we're not tone deaf and we need to, uh, we shouldn't do anything funny because it's, it's not appropriate. It's a logical thought process. It's just not true. And I think what happens is when you have those step changes like we had in 2008, 2009, the level drops and then it, and then it doesn't come back up again. Those I would say are the two most significant moments.Ilyse: (07:15)But do you see it coming back now?Andrew: (07:17)There's actually some pretty good data about what's happened in the last six months and how many more humorous ads are being tested. I'm hopeful that it can be revived.Ilyse: (07:27)That's great. I mean, I think everybody is down for a laugh these days. Um, but would you say it's also good for business?Andrew: (07:34)90% of people will say that, um, they're more likely to remember an ad that is funny. 80% of people say they're more likely to recommend a brand that is funny. 91% of people say they want brands to be funny. And 72% say they would choose a humorous brand over the competition. And that's all kind of claimed behavior. And it's not surprising if you think about the way we are as human beings, if you make people feel good and attach that feeling to your brand, that's an experience that're going to remember. And when your brand is next presented to them, that's what they're gonna draw on.Ilyse: (08:12)One of the reasons you say that people have an inhibition around humor is that it's not compatible with purpose-driven messaging. But you found that not to be the case.Andrew: (08:23)It's important for brands to have a meaningful and relevant purpose. The flaw in the logic in my view, is that necessarily that means that when you try to bring that purpose to life or talk about it or dramatize it, uh, you have to do so in a very serious way. You can have a really serious or really important cause or purpose. That doesn't mean you can't talk about it in a way that's going to, people are gonna find amusing. I I showed an example of, of President Obama. He was the president of the United States, pretty big job. Uh, his signature legislative achievement was the Affordable Care Act. And there was a, a website that was built by the government so that people could take advantage of this and it didn't work. And his way of dealing with it was not to do an earn speech about it. His way of dealing with it was to do a funny or die video. That was really, really funny. That's a great way to apologize. It's a great way to say I'm sorry. And when he did that, it was watched by, I think it was 40 or 50 million people. But, but the more important fact is that the number of people who went on the site went up by 40%.Damian: (09:31)I'm wondering, can we make the case that humor builds engagement no matter which channel it's on?Andrew: (09:36)You know, this fundamental point that if you can use creativity in whatever medium you're working in, whatever form you are working in to make people feel good and attach that feeling to your brand, you will sell more. A few years ago I was in LA and I was due to come back to New York and I got a text message from American Airlines. It's one of the best things I've ever seen, which is not a sentence I expected to say about a text message from American Airlines. But the text message said, you may want to pack an umbrella. We're expecting storms tomorrow. Flights will be delayed and some may be canceled. If you can, you should probably travel on another day. And all of the technology and data that's necessary to ensure that that bit of information, very, very relevant information got to me in the palm of my hand at the right time, right message, right time, all of that technology is great. But if it hadn't been written the way it was, instead of smiling and feeling good, I would probably have been angry. 'cause if it, if the same information was, you know, all caps, weather alert, uh, storms expected on East Coast delays, likely my reaction would've been completely different. I would've been angry instead of which I was smiling. I did get delayed. I then got diverted. I was sitting on the runway in, um, Dulles for, for three hours and I didn't get mad.Ilyse: (11:07)There's really an arc to it.Andrew: (11:09)Yeah, I mean, I, I would, I would challenge that assumption. I don't think it matters what medium you are consuming or probably what situation you are in. Maybe with a couple of extreme examples, if you can get somebody to laugh and feel good, they are going to thank you for it. That old expression of laughter being the best medicine there is, is true. That's true. If you can make people laugh, they will feel better and they will thank you for it. By, in our case, buying your brand, how you make people laugh, the topic, the content, the idea that you bring to life that creates this feeling, what you build that around is, has to be handled very sensitively. What I'm arguing is that no matter what state of mind people are in, if you can find a way to make them smile and laugh and feel good, they're gonna thank you for it with their business.Ilyse: (12:06)What would you say is the funniest campaigns that you've worked on?Andrew: (12:10)You are not you and you're hungry for. Snickers is a campaign that's that's rooted in making people laugh. Um, it's, you know, running in 83 countries, it's in its 13th year, it's been outrageously successful for the brand.Damian: (12:24)Is that a negotiation between, you know, you as the creative and, and the the client? Do you talk about the style, the content and whether it should be funny? Does that come up or is that sort of an organic process?Andrew: (12:36)The key to making something funny is you have to under, you have to understand the premise. And there are cases where that humor is generated around premises that people might understand, but just not like the fundamental point of if you can, if you can create a premise that people understand you have the launching pad for something that could be humorous. That's true everywhere. It's an organic process, it's an organic process. And if you have something that makes the client laugh, the client will laugh. Usually the same way as the audience will laugh if something's funny. It's funny. And getting people to recognize the value of it is sometimes a function of getting them to experience it. The bit that gets complicated is when people are arguing about whether something is funny or not, it takes ingenuity and creativity. And sometimes I think the bigger problem is, is not that people don't want to do something that is funny, it's that what they do isn't actually that funny.Damian: (13:41)Do you ever get to a point where , you know, you've got the final asset there and it's like, Hmm, it's just not that funny? Or does, does that ever happen? Or does it get that far?Andrew: (13:49)Yeah, it does. It, it does happen. And when you're testing the work, you're not testing, is it funny or not, you're testing whether the audience is going to engage with it, find it memorable, and it's going to make them feel something that makes them wanna buy your brand. The humor is the means to the end. It's not an end in itself, but yeah, it does, it does happen where somebody's like, ah, it's just not funny. Uh, or it's not funny enough. You know, there are writers' rooms working on, on Seth Meyer's jokes every night. I mean, there's 10 people sitting around a table trying to come up with something funny for him to say, 'cause he's gotta be funny for an hour. And that's a lot of jokes that you need. So it takes a lot of creative minds to come up with them. Fortunately, we don't have to fill an hour usually, but it's still, it's still harder than, it's still harder than anybody imagines. And if you doubt that for a second, just try and write something funny yourself. Just try and write even when you know the format, try and write a Snickers commercial. Try and try and write something funny for Snickers. It's, it's harder than anybody imagines.Ilyse: (14:52)Would you say there are some categories that lend themselves to humor more than others?Andrew: (14:57)I don't want to accept the principle that, that there are any categories in which it couldn't be used. I think companies and individuals may choose not to, but I, but I, I find it hard to believe that it, that it really couldn't be used.Damian: (15:22)And that's it for the current podcast. We'll be back next week with Jesse Poll, the head of brand and marketing for Major League Soccer.Ilyse: (15:29)The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Berkley and CatDamian: (15:37)Fessy. And remember,Andrew: (15:39)If you can use creativity in whatever medium you're working in, whatever form you are working in to make people feel good and attach that feeling to your brand, you will sell more.Damian: (15:53)And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report as we round up the week's biggest marketing headlines from across the open internet. I'm Damien andIlyse: (16:05)I'm Elise.Damian: (16:06)And we'll see you next time.

As the presidential race picks up momentum, The Current Podcast explores what a political campaigner and a CPG brand marketer can learn from each other. Kyle Yadon-Smith, (the head of digital for the National Republican Senatorial Committee), and Vinny Rinaldi, (the head of media and analytics for The Hershey Company), get candid about marketing politics and chocolate.  Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. Damian Fowler: (00:01)I'm Damian Fowler. Welcome to this edition of the current podcast.Damian Fowler: (00:10)This week we are queuing up a great conversation between two advertisers who may not on first glance seem to have that much in common. We're joined by Vinnie Ranaldi, the head of media and analytics at the Hershey Company, and Kyle Yadon-Smith, the head of digital for the National Republican Senatorial Committee. That said, we thought it would be fascinating to hear what a big CPG brand like Hershey can learn from a major political advertiser like the NRSC. And since this is an election year, what better time to host this conversation. It's been said that every great political campaign rewrites the rules at the same time, CPG brands can now supercharge campaigns with retail data. With all that in mind, let's get to it. Both of you, of course, are focused on reaching those respective audiences, whether you call 'em consumers or voters. I'd love to hear from both of you, you know, on what you think you may have in common.Kyle Smith: (01:09)I was gonna joke, the uh, the biggest thing is, uh, we're both targeting, so we're women I think is our key marketplace. the cycle . Um, obviously that's not the only, uh, demographic that's gonna be key on the political landscape, but, uh, we're gonna be running ads in October and so we're gonna screw up your Halloween marketing. Thankfully you guys do not have a, uh, Georgia runoff this year, so it should be okay by Christmas. And uh, yeah, I think we're gonna be targeting a lot of the same consumers slash uh, voter demographics. So it's kind of, it's, it's interesting how that kind of plays out. Yeah,Vinny Rinaldi: (01:36)I would agree. I think there's more correlation. I think, you know, we're looking at the same content areas to show up in as a brand to sell chocolate as you guys are, to show up and influence somebody to devote one way or the other in those big environments. You know, a lot of how we look to show up is how do we drive seasonality in local markets at a certain store? So you're right in October, believe me, it's probably hot topic number one of like the lead up to our Super Bowl October 31st. There's a serious presidential election happening a week later. Yeah. So how much will that play a role when we're buying, you know, market-based ads? So it is an area, I wouldn't say of concern, but an area that we're certainly focused on of like how do we make sure we're showing up in the right markets during our most precious time of year, but being cognizant of some of the headwinds we might face based on what's happening in real time.Damian Fowler: (02:28)It's interesting, you know, you're sort of talking in a way about competition between say chocolate and political campaigns, but on the other hand there's a sort,Kyle Smith: (02:35)I think we would lose that one if you had to vote on one or the other. .Damian Fowler: (02:39)I mean, of course there's an alignment too. I mean maybe you guys can, you know, get together and cross-reference here.Vinny Rinaldi: (02:45)I mean, I joke as we look at all of the debates leading up to it and one of our products is popcorn. How do we show up and say, get your popcorn ready for all these new events that are happening. So can you bridge that gap and kind of work together? There's a lot of areas of, ofKyle Smith: (02:58)Interest. Politics is pop culture now, right? Yeah. Like I'll never forget, one of the funniest ads I saw was, I think it was Advil, they bought the promoted tweet on the first day of the debate in 2016 and it said, do you have a headache from this debate, you know, by Advil? And I thought that was kind of a fun way to play into it.Damian Fowler: (03:12)What's interesting to me is, you know, in looking at say any given political campaign, how the importance of being reactive in the moment kind of real time is so crucial, you know, for getting those swing voters out to either vote or just to nudge the needle a little bit. And I'm wondering, you know, if that idea of the sped up data-driven campaign is obviously influencing the way CPG brands like Hershey think about campaigns,Vinny Rinaldi: (03:38)I think we certainly use data-driven tactics in a very similar way. And you think back to the last, I guess it's 16 years since the 2008 election, which is crazy during that election when, when President Obama won, you know, it goes a little unnoticed of how he won the tactics he used, which were way ahead of his time in a lot of this, using the data, focusing on different demographic urban environments, getting those people to the polling centers, like we're trying to do the same thing during, whether it's a big season or to dry everyday occurrences, like how do you find those pockets of incremental opportunities to grow from the beast that's already there is very correlated to from when President Obama did it to President Trump doing it in 2016 and really becoming a more data-driven tactic on how you show up in those moments.Kyle Smith: (04:26)I mean, it's kind of funny, both Obama in 2012 and uh, president Trump in uh, 2016 both had a actually almost similar data strategy. They're both very digital heavy in from a percentage perspective for their time. And then of course nowadays we actually can't use that data on quite a few platforms. So data's extremely important in the political space. Obviously there's, uh, 60% of Americans over the age of 18 are gonna vote this cycle and a lot of those folks are gonna vote for the same party they've always voted for. And identifying people that, you know, swing back and forth is the key to winning, obviously. And that coalition changes every cycle. For us, it's leveraging the data to inform what that audience looks like so that we can make tactical data-driven decisions, even on platforms that don't let us use it directly of which, you know, is the bulk of the ecosystem at this point. It'sVinny Rinaldi: (05:08)An interesting point. Like we as a big massive consumer packaged goods brand that sells chocolate, has no first party data. We have to talk to everybody. Literally 98% of the um, US population eats candy mint or gum. So for us it's like how do you balance, you want scalability no matter what, but what are the right insights and data points that you utilize when you go to activation? Because if you're trying to find one-to-one in any second and or third party data partnerships in some platforms, not all, you're losing the findability due to some of the privacy regulations that are coming up. So if you don't own the data asset itself in a first party ecosystem, it's a lot harder to deliver that experience. And it's also a lot harder to collect first party data when you're a brand that everyone else sells your product. You're just driving demand through advertising and awareness and driving people to the store. But from a D two C perspective where a lot of that collection can happen, it's a little bit more of a challenge on our end to be able to sell chocolate and collect a data 0.0 for those people.Damian Fowler: (06:08)What's interesting to me about this is according to a study by the Trade Desk with Morning Consult during the 2022 midterms, 75% of all Americans surveyed who say they might vote in the midterms, say they know who they're gonna vote for. So I don't know from a political standpoint, do you market to those people or is marketing always at the margins? You know, are you always trying to reach out to that undecided voter? And I wonder if that carries over into CPG thinking as well.Kyle Smith: (06:33)I actually think this may be a space where things are more similar than they are different. You know, if you've bought Hershey Kisses every year for Christmas and you, your family's always done that and you always, you know, put that in the stalking, you're probably gonna continue to do it until something shifts or something changes. There's pretty high retention, right? In terms of Republicans from 2016 are very likely to be Republicans again, 2024. But things do change, you know, the people will always tell you, they say they know who they're gonna vote for today, but then there could be a new story that drops at some point next year that scrambles everything. You know, it changes people's opinions on issues, it changes how people think about things and we have to react very, very quickly to that and make sure that, you know, if the story's good for us, that everyone knows about it or if the story's bad for us, that we have our point of view out there to, to kind of counter what the information is. It's kind of hard to expect who those people are gonna be or what's gonna trigger that. So I think that kind of leads to the importance of talking to everyone and making sure that you kind of have a broad message out there. But we also know our folks that are, you know, Republican donors donate or vote in every single election that are probably on our team. So it's kind of just, uh, doing a little bit of both.Vinny Rinaldi: (07:30)Yeah, you look at Reese's Peanut butter cups, they have a 64% household penetration. I'm not sure there's any single brand out there that comes as close. So if you think about it, you, you're almost everywhere. So you're constantly speaking to everybody and hoping, you know, in those moments you're getting that incremental gain for a new household conversion and or, or repeat purchaser. So you do want to talk to both. You're also looking at probably one of the more impulsive categories in the world. Chocolate is a grab and go. You're at the counters, you're just grabbing, you don't plan it. So you always have to be, broadly speaking, making everyone aware of subtly nudging that reminder message to almost everybody.Damian Fowler: (08:08)Given that then, you know, does that mean a lot of your campaigns tend to be about, you know, just brand awareness kind of up there at the top of the funnel? And then how do you use channels to nudge the consumer? How, how does that work? ,Vinny Rinaldi: (08:22)In very basic theory, yes, we are a very big awareness brand messaging strategy to have fun. You know, we lean heavily on the voice of Will Arnett, which is the voice behind the Reese's commercials. So like, it is that probably where, but then you have, whether it's a limited edition or a seasonal environment or some other area where you wanna be a little bit more focused, where you would lean into some sort of targeting capability, whether it's a retail based target, third party, purchase based target. How do you use all those levers to take some of the spend and be focused while the majority of your base spend is reaching that broad awareness of the entire population?Kyle Smith: (09:00)Yeah, I think that's where, you know, I'm a little bit jealous of Hershey's and you have all this institutional brand ID and I'm, we're jealous of the starting point, especially, you know, I'm working on the, I'm working on senate campaigns this cycle. The NRC, we only have really two incumbents, meaning like people that are already senators running for reelection, again, Ted Cruz and uh, Rick Scott in Florida, they kind of have a really strong starting point they can focus on more, just reminding folks that kinda like you, I feel like you guys do every site or every year we're Hershey's, we're Reese's also. I'm jealous you get will learn that, but we're we're, we're Reese's what we are, et cetera. But then on our side we have a separate project of a lot of new candidates that no one's ever heard of that frankly haven't held elected office. And you have a year and you know, three or four months to make their name Id as close to a hundred percent with the voter base as you can. If uh, Trump were president it was 2020 and everyone kind of knows who these guys are. It is kind of more similar I think to the annual, uh, yeah, candy marketing. But this, this year it's uh, we have to start from scratch. It's like you guys introducing a new brand, I feel like, or a new skew of, uh, of, you know, Hershey's, Reese's, et cetera.Vinny Rinaldi: (10:00)We just launched uh, Reese's Caramel Cups and it is like launching a completely new thing even though it's part of the Reese's family. Yes, you're gonna have those loyalists try your new product, but can you attract new consumers into an already built brand because of a new introduction of caramel into a peanut butter cup? You have to find those new pockets of opportunity to not lose your base or not have them switch completely and keep that cycle growing with new consumers.Damian Fowler: (10:26)One of the things that's happened, uh, in the last couple of years, we talked about, you know, what happened in the last four years is the kind of rise of, there's much more inventory out there for streaming platforms, connected television, and that connecting the dots up with, you know, other channels. I wonder if you could both sort of talk me through a little bit of how that, the maturing as it were of CTV has changed the way you go to market and think about connecting up big awareness plays on CTV to, you know, lower down the funnel to more performance driven tactics.Vinny Rinaldi: (10:56)You know, as I go back to what I said earlier, the proliferation of content everywhere has certainly opened up the purview of how to show up, how to be everywhere. You know, for me, when I think about the connected TV landscape, what I love about it is the ability to buy prime time at any time. When you sit down at eight o'clock or nine o'clock or 12 o'clock or 3:00 PM it doesn't matter. You're accessing whatever content you wanna watch in that moment. So in my opinion, when you buy this way, you've got primetime moments at all times. That person is decided they're gonna sit down, they're gonna, you know, watch whatever it is that they wanna watch at that given moment.Vinny Rinaldi: (11:47)And that's your moment as a brand to show up and that's how we look at it. And then when you take that holistic approach to those primetime moments, how do you then use the controllability of technology to control, reach and frequency? So if I know that I'm talking to this person in 12 different platforms, well I don't want my frequency to be a 40 on one of 'em. I want to control that and keep extending reach. If I get enough reach, my household penetration should go up. If that goes up, my sales are going up, we're winning share, we're reaching more consumers, like that's our end goal. So being in as many homes as possible is actually impossible if you're buying on 40 different IOs or platforms. So then when you think about consolidation and the value of bringing somebody from an awareness building tactic and streaming or on the big screen all the way through a funnel and having that control allows me to unlock more business outcomes than any media measurement can give me.Damian Fowler: (12:42)I'm wondering if what the equivalent of business outcomes are in the political ad marketplace.Kyle Smith: (12:48)Um, well if we win.Damian Fowler: (12:51)I thought you were gonna say that. Kyle Smith: (12:52)Yeah, I, I , I think, uh, I actually think this is where also uh, you know, the candy and CPG world in general is, it's pretty similar to political land is um, our outcomes also a little bit impulsive. I remember standing in line, you know, to vote for the DC City Council with a few of my coworkers before and we were all talking like, who are these people? , you know, it's like we don't know who anyone we're voting for. It's kind of funny. And then you kind of re look at 'em real quick. You remember like stuff you've heard or mailers you've gotten and you make a decision that you have one day to do that or one month to do that. And that's our moment. That's when you get your conversion. That's kind of how I'd compare the two there. I think from a high level perspective, we have the exact same problem in politics, especially with linear, where we have very high frequencies against some audiences sometimes.Kyle Smith: (13:28)And when you're talking to one group of people 70 times, you're, you have less money then to talk to the rest of the folks who may not be very heavy media consumers. So having an ever-present point of view across not just linear but also digital, I think that's something that our party especially is gonna try to get a lot better at this cycle. It, it's interesting to me that 20 12, 20 16, I think, and Vinny told me if this is wrong, I think the corporate world almost looked at politics and was like, wow, they're doing some really cool stuff. We have to figure out what they're doing. I think that's kind of taken a step back a little bit now that we've gotten into the, you know, we have to target older Americans 'cause older Americans are more likely to vote. And I think now as older Americans, habits have changed quite a bit from 2020 to 2024, it's forced both political parties to kind of adapt a little bit after frankly the corporate world has uh, to what the new landscape looks like.Damian Fowler: (14:11)You know, speaking of different audiences, are there different channels for different audiences? Kyle, when you said, you know, reaching older Americans or all older voters, I'm wondering if that's still like a linear play now or if that's completely, am I just stereotyping a whole demographic?Kyle Smith: (14:26)Yeah, well I watch Wheel of Fortune every other night, so I, I maybe I, maybe I'm breaking the demographic there. . Yeah, I, I think linear is still the utmost effective mass reach, uh, mechanism for folks 55 plus, especially broadcast. It's pretty easy to get over 75% reach across that audience, uh, with a couple of weeks of linear buys. What I will say though is even older users are starting to shift pretty substantially. Especially, you know, in the last couple of years when I used to do my YouTube pitches, I always told, told the story of my father-in-Law who is a huge Elon Musk fan and watches a lot of documentaries about him on YouTube. And I would walk down one day and he's like an hour or two of this documentary that some college kid put together about, about how he's making rockets or whatever. They do a penetration across all the different age groups. And I do think that we're gonna continue to see a shift away, especially from cable time spent on cable and towards the streaming services, whether it's YouTube or or more of the down funnel servicesVinny Rinaldi: (15:15)As I stated earlier. You know, we reach everybody with a mouth. So every demographic needs to play a role in our media, both strategy spend, investment strategy, that's everything. Kyle, you kinda hit the nail on the head. It's what's happening between those environments is what's the shift what we're seeing. And I think the industry's seeing more and more, if you remove live news and sports from linear consumption, you're gonna see a drastic drop off in actual consumption habits. But you know, when you think about the purchase power right now, it shifted a little bit into the millennial group who are the bigger purchases, which is 71 million US people. We talk about Gen Z a lot. It's like, oh, they're the up and comers, they're people we have to talk to, but they're, you know, the people we don't have to spend that much time on, they're 68 million of them. So they're almost equivalent to a millennial generation. So we're gonna just wait for them to become purchasers. And I think that's a miss. So you've gotta show up in the moments or platforms that those consumption habits are happening by demo and then show up authentically to that audience so it's not, forget about one versus the other. It's how do you repeat the holistic picture across every platform and then deliver a communication strategy that resonates with those different audience groups. That's how we're working towards showing up across every platform.Kyle Smith: (16:34)And that's what's, that's so interesting to me. It's like the purchasing power in our world is a little bit different. You know, like in terms of voter people that actually vote, well one kids under the age of 18 cannot vote. So there's zero purchasing power. And I, I know that, I mean at least when I was in marketing school they, they taught us about how kids do have purchasing power, uh, when it comes to telling their parentsVinny Rinaldi: (16:51)They have influencing purchasing powerKyle Smith: (16:54)But in our world, you know, the, if you look at the millennial generation, you have a much higher voting percentage than it was 10 years ago. But it's still not anything close to 55 plus glad that we have the purchasing power in the millennial generation now though.Vinny Rinaldi: (17:06)I think it's that 13 to 18 group that's so key for us. As I said, the influencing power, everything, especially in our category, has become on demand. So I have the ability at 13 to use mom and dad's credit card tied to a DoorDash account and I'm gonna gain for the next five hours and I'm gonna order a bunch of things from seven 11 as we move into the future, five to 10 years from now, most of that generation will become now the voters but they don't wanna leave their house or they don't wanna go outta their way to go do something 'cause everything has come so easy to them by using a phone. How does the voter landscape change from either written ballots or in person to a truly secure ability to vote and get more buy-in into voting for a generation that is very used to just opening something up and hitting a buttonDamian Fowler: (17:59)We're throwing to the future here. Yeah, I mean Kyle, I dunno, what do you think, uh, do you think we're gonna get to that point?Kyle Smith: (18:04)I think Covid kind of changed the voting rules in a lot of states that make it easier to vote. I don't know if we'll ever get to the instant gratification level until, you know, maybe 50, a hundred years from now when we're voting on a blockchain and you get a vote coin and you spend it somewhere or something like that. So the convenience factor matters a lot and then it changes by state and almost by locality, right? If you live in a rural area and it's hard for you to get to the polling place 'cause it's a 10 mile drive versus it being half a mile down the street when you're dropping off your kids to school, that could make a difference as well. So it really just depends.Vinny Rinaldi: (18:35)I think that's really interesting because each state is adopting their own voter rules sounds very similar to each state adopting their own data privacy rules instead of thinking of a national basis and actually simplifying the ease for everyday people to utilize something. It's fascinating that we all continue to live by state, by state governed rules that are drastically different than just a national governing body to allow us to have a centralized ruling system to use, whether it's data privacy or voter rights. It's just, it's funny to watch that correlation between our two worlds.Kyle Smith: (19:09)Even sugar taxes, you know, some of the cities, I don't think it's gone after candy quite yet. True. But the uh, you know the Bloomberg rules around like the taxing soda and stuff and I think Philadelphia did it and then the sales increased outside of the Philadelphia like urban area like substantially for all those stores because you're able to get cheaper stuff. But that's interesting.Damian Fowler: (19:26)Kyle, you mentioned harder to reach audiences and I want to ask both of you, you know about that and how the programmatic marketplace makes it possible to reach those harder to reach audiences. I know at the top we joked about suburban housewives but you know, how granular can you get,Kyle Smith: (19:43)What is it 95% of people watch video whether it's linear or digital. So that does get you to a pretty high threshold the way I approach it. Like we have to deliver messages very quickly, right? So that's why I think you see political really lean into linear a lot 'cause you could get that mass reach in a day if you're buying the football games. Like if you're buying, you know, primetime on across all the all four networks and you have a presence there, you're gonna get to 50% reach pretty quickly. I think the hard part is honestly the other 50% on CTV and making sure that you're distributing that message to the person the one day a week they happen to be watching ad supported Hulu and they're not watching Netflix for example. That's where it gets more difficult. Having the centralized approach, making sure that you're maxing out the non-linear household reach if you're already buying a lot of linear is, is the hardest and most important thing that we have to do. We'll have maybe eight to 10 messages per candidate that we run and we want all eight to 10 of those messages to be seen by as many people as possible and we don't have as much time. I wish I had, you know, one or two month long campaigns that I could run behind these things to get that reach number, the incremental reach as high as we possibly can. But in reality it's, it's seven to 10 days. We just have to maximize thatVinny Rinaldi: (20:46)For Reeces. Again, reach everybody, everybody with a mouth, everybody wants to buy a Reeces, great. But then I go again down the portfolio, you've got variety brands in York peppermint patties, almond Joy, mounds. And so like how do you take those with much less spending power and find those pockets of opportunity? You know, for your, give you an example for York, one of the really cool unlocks we found was the snowbird effect sales actually increased 'cause York leans very heavily 55 plus really 65 plus and you see Northeast sales in the summer skew higher and then southeast sales skew higher in the winter and you're seeing the people as they move the consumer habits follow with them. So how do you heavy up in those markets during the seasons? So when you don't have a large bucket of money to go spend as a brand, you use data and insights in that way to be like really targeted hyper-focused on winning those key occasions for that consumer. Because again, at the end of the day you can only stretch a budget so far if you want to grow a business.Damian Fowler: (21:51)Fascinating that. So just to wrap it up, I guess I wanna ask each of you one question, you know the same question Kyle, what do you wish you could take from CPG land and Vinny, what do you wish you could take from political?Kyle Smith: (22:03)For me it'd be like two things. Like I think the permanence of the institutions. You know, you have the same kind of folks that'll work in marketing, the same agencies that run things for years, if not decades. Sometimes that makes it so that you have a lot of like earned experience and a lot of, you've gone through all this several times, you know what works, what, what doesn't. And I think kind of an informed approach every time politics is, you know, you have to start from the bottom and you build something up and then election day happens and that institution basically doesn't exist anymore and you have to start all over again for the next two years. So that'd be the first thing. And I think with that comes the advantages of being able to have more predictability. We don't have a ton of predictability in politics.Kyle Smith: (22:37)It's tough to know what my budget's gonna be. It's really tough for me to know what the news cycles are gonna look like next year without kind of that knowledge going in without knowing how much money you have, it makes it harder to do long-term planning. That's where I'm a little bit jealous of CPG land kind of wish, you know, knowing what your budget is a year and a half out I think would be awesome in our world if we were able to say that with certainty. But you know, it makes us scrappy and it makes it so that sometimes it's better than you expect and you get to have fun with it and sometimes it's a little bit worse and you just have to be smarter than the other guy.Vinny Rinaldi: (23:02)I would say almost the opposite in a way because I feel the marriage of branding and performance is so important to not separate the two, but to bring them together and the agility that the political landscape moves with is actually a blessing in disguise. Pricing aside the hyper target ability, the ability to show value really quickly is something that we lack because we don't own the end game. So like there, there's a part of that that's like, okay, well if you can be that hyper-focused and get a really quick outcome, how do you build that into a small percentage of your spending in the overall portfolio to be super agile, super hyper targeted, really focused on market analysis and then correlated to sales or in your case outcomes from an election. That to me is super exciting. It's something that we sometimes strive to do. You know, we used to have this motto that we're still trying to build out, but like, act like a CPG, think like a D to C, we don't own the end game, but how do you think really agile but come with the power of being a CPG. So I think what you bring to the table from a political landscape gives us just a little bit there to think about of like being super fast, nimble, and agile in a marketplace that changes so fast.Damian Fowler: (24:17)And that's it for this edition of the current podcast. We'll be back next week. The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by loving caliber. The current podcast team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce. And remember,Kyle Smith: (24:30)If you're talking to one group of people 70 times, you have less money than to talk to the rest of the folks who may not be very heavy media consumers.Vinny Rinaldi: (24:37)Act like a CPG, think like a D to C.Damian Fowler: (24:40)And if you like what you hear, subscribe and leave a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report as we round up the week's biggest marketing headlines from across the open internet. I'm Damian and we'll see you next time.

Barbara Shipley, senior VP of brand integration at AARP, discusses on The Current Podcast the risk of perpetuating myths associated with older generations.   Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. DAMIAN (00:01):I'm Damian Fowler.ILYSE (00:02):And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.DAMIAN (00:04):And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.ILYSE (00:10):This week we sit down with Barbara Shipley, the senior Vice President of Brand integration at A A RP. TheDAMIAN (00:17):A A RP is the nation's largest non-profit nonpartisan organization, which is in its own words, dedicated to empowering Americans 50 and older to live their best lives. It's taken great pains to assure people that it's not about silver haired grannies and granddadsILYSE (00:33):To be sure it's building on a tremendous legacy that started back in 1958. But as the perception of aging has changed in that time, so has the organization and its messaging. The A A RP is on a mission to debunk the myths about growing old. One of the ways it's doing this is by investing heavily in digital marketing in a world focused on youth. Barbara talks to us about what's unique about the A A RP demographic,BARBARA SHIPLEY (01:04):So we totally understand why people have a focus on Gen Z millennials. Um, let's be honest, there's definitely an obsession with youth, not just in this country, but all around the world. I think what's important for people to remember is not to put generations against each other, but to recognize where the customer base could be and potentially take age out of the equation for just a second, think about what your brand is, what your marketing, what your bottom line is, and then who makes the most sense? And in most cases, your marketing team, your brand team, your strategy team is going to zero in on people, 50 plus, they don't know it now, but if they open their mind to see where their customer is, I can almost guarantee it will include a huge proportion of the 50 plus because that's where the money is being spent. That's where the population growth is. Aging, is fueling growth in almost every market and segment.ILYSE (02:22):Just how big is that spending power, I guess, of that demographic? And then basically, how should brands think about this audience?BARBARA SHIPLEY (02:30):In the US alone, you've got 110 million people over 50, and the fastest growing audience is people over 85. So that is something to celebrate. Now, in a youth, and you could say youth obsessed, but in a youth focused environment, it's hard to pull people's attention over to the power of the 50 plus audience. But when we talk to brands and marketers in the industry and say, $8.6 trillion, they stop and listen, that's a lot, that contribution that the 50 plus in the US alone makes to the US economy each year.ILYSE (03:15):Now, the A A RP was founded 65 years ago in 1958. How has your organization changed to reflect the values and the needs of the demographic that you now serve?BARBARA SHIPLEY (03:27):The biggest way a A RP has changed is we are still extremely proud and focused of the, on the work that we do to help retired senior citizens, but that is not all we do. So if you think about an organization that is focused primarily on the 50 plus their families and their communities, how many 50-year-old people do you know that are retired right now or even thinking about retirement, they may be planning for it. I have to say I hope they are, because if you're not planning for it by the time you're 50, that's gonna be a challenge. But retirement could be 20 years away. And so A A RP has adapted it's content, it's programs, it's services, it's products, it's community outreach, it's volunteers to really address the way people are aging today, not just the way they aged when their parents or grandparents were going through their lives.DAMIAN (04:26):In addition to changing the programming that you have, um, how has the narrative changed in terms of your marketing, in terms of your campaigns? Now, I know you work with BBDO to create this new narrative. Could you address that a little bit? SoBARBARA SHIPLEY (04:39):This longevity message that I was just talking about is really important and it, and it really became one of the big insights to this new narrative, as you say. So if you could spend or live half your life after 50, you want to make sure that your money, your health, and your happiness live as long as you do. It starts to capture in a really concrete way. Our role, the AARP's role, is as a wise friend and a fierce defender, we are uniquely equipped to help you make sure your money, health and happiness live as long as you do. And the reason why it works so well as a marketing campaign is because of what I call the rug pull at the end, which is in fact, the younger you are, the more you need A A RP. And that has stopping power and gets people's attention because it is not easy to make sure your money, health and happiness live as long as you do. But we are here to help you do that.DAMIAN (05:44):It's interesting here, you talk about this because that line in the sand of retirement, sort of mid sixties, uh, has always been there and as sort of as a sort of psychological threshold. And, and that's clearly changing, you know, not just in the United States, but everywhere around the world. And I know that one of the important focuses for you has been around the importance of work and not just work for people, you know, under 65. It's not about retirement anymore, is it?BARBARA SHIPLEY (06:09):So you're right, it's not about the traditional old book of retirement. So work has become one of the biggest areas for A A RP. And it, it, it's interesting when you see it at first, people can be a little bit surprised. Wait a minute, I thought you were about retirement. And very quickly they get to that moment where of course you're not just going to help me in my retirement years, you are going to help me in my working years as well. And we do have to be honest here, there's a lot of ageism in the workplace. There's age discrimination, which is even a more deeper legal issue. If you're over 50 and you need to work and you're outta work, it's a daunting task just to get an interview. So what we do is work with the environment that you're trying to succeed in, not just help you with your resume, which we do provide you a network, which we do connect you to a job board, which we do. But we are also communicating to the HR industry, hiring managers sectors, the creative industry to push and help people understand the power of the multi-generational workforce. There is so much power in the multi-generational workforce. The work is better, the experience is better, the culture is stronger, the learnings never end and it goes every which way. And that's why I'm so passionate about the multi-generational workforce, specifically in the creative industry and how powerful that can be for business outcomes for your clients and for the culture of your agency.ILYSE (07:50):Yeah, and definitely there is an ageism issue in America and not even to mention the marketing industry. Could you describe some of those like stereotypes and misperceptions that do show up in media and we, we still see,BARBARA SHIPLEY (08:05):On the one hand, if you're thinking about hiring an older person, a little bit different than you just asked, but if you're thinking about hiring an older person, the myth associated with that is they can't use technology. They're slow, they're always gonna call in sick. They're not really looking to work here for a long time. They're just marking time until they retire. False, false, false and false. This is a group of people who largely have accumulated so much experience and so much wisdom that they are going to right the ship when there is some kind of a crisis in the workplace, they are going to be the steady hand. They can be, um, a receptacle for learning, for teaching, for sharing. There are lots of things that people learn how to do. So there are some opportunities for learning, but let's create those opportunities so that we can get the benefits of people in the workplace.BARBARA SHIPLEY (09:05):In marketing. We still see brands, brands are really starting to get it right. I think there's a lot of reasons for that. We're gonna take some credit for that, but we won't take all that credit. I think part of it is because a lot of creative directors at your agencies, they're turning 50 and they want to be relevant. They know their life experience and their talent is relevant. And I think that's part of where the new narrative in a lot of these ads is coming from. They're also, I think, looking at the realities of aging. They're looking at the research, the data, and they're seeing that people are developing their own stories, their own timelines. pe half of people in America that are 65 to today are still working. So to tell a story in an ad of people in their sixties with sort of blank stares, fumbling around technology, doddering fools only vulnerable, wearing beige does not tell the story of how people are actually living their lives today.BARBARA SHIPLEY (10:09):Now watch an ad for a restaurant, the older people, I bet you are background, that's not how it actually is, but that's how the ad portrays it because the younger hipper people are in the front, they are your OCPs. So let's get it actually the way it is because the danger of perpetuating these myths is twofold. One, your prime audience that has all the spending power is feeling ignored or insulted by your brand. And two younger people who come in contact with your work fear aging, that's a societal problem. And I would ask you and all of your listeners to answer the question, what's the alternative to aging? Everybody wants to age their way, which is why our mission is to empower people to choose how they live as they age.ILYSE (11:10):Now, are there any specific tools that A A RP turns to, um, to kind of bust some of those myths around those stereotypes?BARBARA SHIPLEY (11:19):So that's a great question because the tools and the concrete, um, opportunities are the best way to educate and change the environment. And I am so proud of the work that we launched about five years ago in a very special partnership with Getty Images. We have introduced a signature collection on Getty images that has grown to tens of thousands of images called Disrupt Aging. And the goal of disrupt aging is to, through imagery tell the more current contemporary real and varied stories associated with how people age. You see multi-generational images, you see images of people at work, you see images of people at play. They are not overly photoshopped, they are not overly beautiful. They are very real and it makes a huge difference. And to me, one of the most exciting things that I didn't even anticipate when we built this is the search techniques that we have introduced.BARBARA SHIPLEY (12:22):Instead of agencies searching for old people on the beach, we now are shifting the, the search, which means the input is changing. And the models are also really shifting how we think about the imagery that captures today's realities of aging. So the Getty images work is pretty radical. And then we also have all of the data from the usage that shows us what people are gravitating to and what they need. So it can be a very responsive tool, but it isn't enough. We need more tools in our industry and I recognize that I grew up in this industry, I grew up in the agency world. I know what it's like. The big problem I have with where our industry is right now is stop making assumptions about me because you know one thing about me, which is my age, nobody wants that. So this is what we need to break ourselves out of and stop putting everything through an age lens, which may it sound funny coming from an organization that is about aging, but it's about the freedom to choose how you live as you age and not be put into a box or a category or segment because of one data point.ILYSE (13:41):Now there's no doubt a lot of brands are getting it wrong still, but are there any brands that are doing it right?BARBARA SHIPLEY (13:48):Yeah, absolutely. So I'll give you one example, which is Hyundai. And the story is taking the daughter to college and they're driving. So the Hyundai is the vehicle, and by the end of the ad you realize the daughter is dropping the father off at college, and you just have you, you're seized in this moment. I would say there's another narrative coming out of an interesting brand, which is indeed and uh, you see a story of, you know, the the sort of quintessential man carrying the box with stuff in it, which your mo your brain says to you, he's leaving the job, he's been fired, he's retiring. But what you realize by the end of the ad is he's a new hire and he's in his fifties and people couldn't be happier that he's there and he's happy that he's there and it's the new beginning instead of an ending. And that just captures everything about what this audience is actually going through. They aren't just nice stories, they're realDAMIAN (14:49):Speaking of perception. And I know that you have the A A RP magazine, which I understand is the world's largest circulation magazine, which has more than 47 million readers and across a broad age range, it goes back to that multi-generational approach that you've been talking about. You know, how does the magazine as it were, fit into the whole, you know, tapestry of everything that you're doing in terms of your marketing efforts and the perceptionBARBARA SHIPLEY (15:13):A A RP the magazine is one of the most exciting things we have. It's a lifestyle magazine uniquely focused on interests, needs, topics that the 50 plus, now that's a huge group of people, right? There is almost no such thing as a 50 plus segment. So we have a lot of elasticity in the A A RP magazine, you'll see a lot of health topics, you'll see a lot of sex topics, you'll see a lot of travel topics, friends, um, empty nest. There's so much that we are able to cover, but we do it with a really deaf hand. There's so much soul in the way we cover these topics and the way we do interviews with the a a-listers that really wanna be on the cover of the magazine. Um, over the years, uh, we've had actors, actresses, uh, musicians, uh, Michael J. Fox, lady Gaga, Henry Winkler was on the last issue. People don't throw it away, it's a keeper.DAMIAN (16:16):That is an interesting way of kind of gauging one's own aging in a way, in relation to these pop culture people that you've grown up withBARBARA SHIPLEY (16:25):Because these people are still relevant. That makes me still relevant. That makes you still relevant, not some memory of who we once were. This isn't just a group that likes nostalgia either. This is a group of taste makers. You are probably a taste maker. I'm gonna bet. And so you like new music, you like exploring new artists and a A RP sponsors a lot of music. We do a lot of virtual concerts. We do a lot of in-person concerts. We were a huge part of celebrating the 50th anniversary of hip hop. And I think that's why people recognize what we are bringing to the table. We don't just want to sit around and remember, but it's about where are we goingILYSE (17:06):Now, speaking about being like taste makers, A lot of people might be surprised to hear that you guys are so into social media. So curious about your approach there and and why it's an important platform to be on. Yeah,BARBARA SHIPLEY (17:22):We're very big on Facebook. Facebook is important to us, but so is TikTok. So is Instagram. I don't know anybody that really only lives on one social media platform. They go to different social media platforms for different things. And so we show up differently depending on where their mindset may be, their needs are. Our presence on TikTok is a little bit of an alter ego for a a RP. It's an opportunity for us to bring a, a different part of our personality to bear because that's what the users of TikTok are doing. Same thing with Instagram. We have really dedicated our presence on Instagram to capturing and telling and celebrating the story of Gen X in all its glory. It's all its craziness, all its forgottenness. You know, we used to call this the sandwich generation, right? You used to hear that phrase about people who are caring for aging parents and raising their young children, and they're sort of sandwiched in between.BARBARA SHIPLEY (18:15):We are concert goers and we are restaurant goers and we are travelers and we are caregivers. The average age of a caregiver is not a boomer or a Gen X, it's a millennial. And this is, this is a very big deal that people really need to recognize. And we are doing things that we never thought we would need to know how to do. And in many cases we need help. So there's, that's what I mean when I say that these are soulful stories. There is this isn't one dimensional or two dimensional. It's so multi-dimensional. And if people, marketers would just recognize that this 50 plus audience is basically giving everybody else a roadmap. Because what we are blazing, this is a trail, people will be going down basically if there's one message to leave here in terms of how our creative industry writ large reflects older segments, don't do it because it's charitable. Do it because it's good business. And oh, by the way, it's also a better way to engage with your audience and tell the truth versus be stuck in an old stereotype. This is a bottom line opportunity for agencies, brand managers to recognize who their audience is and engage them with their brand.DAMIAN (19:44):And that's it for the current podcast. We'll be back next week. So stay tuned and if you like what you hear, subscribe and leave us a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report as we round up the week's biggest marketing headlines from across the open internet.ILYSE (19:59):The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce.DAMIAN (20:07):And remember,BARBARA SHIPLEY (20:08):They don't know it now, but if they open their mind to see where their customer is, I can almost guarantee it will include a huge proportion of the 50 plus because that's where the money is being spent. That's where the population growth is. Aging is fueling growth in almost every market and segment.DAMIAN (20:32):I'm Damian.ILYSE (20:32):And I'm Ilyse,DAMIAN (20:33):And we'll see you next time.

Booking.com’s Chief Marketing Officer, Arjan Dijk, joins The Current Podcast to  touch on the post-pandemic travel boom and how data supports the company’s omnichannel strategy, saying that 30 percent of his marketing team are “hardcore data scientists.” Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Damian: (00:01)I'm Damian Fowler. Welcome to this edition of the current podcast. My co-host Ilyse Liffreing is away.Damian: (00:10)This week. I sit down with Arian, the senior Vice President and chief marketing officer for booking.com. Since it was founded in 1996 in Amsterdam, booking.com has grown from a small Dutch startup to one of the world's leading digital travel companies. The company's stated mission is to make it easier for everyone to experience the world. Part of Booking Holdings inc. booking.com is a truly global company available in 43 languages. And with more than 28 million accommodations listed, Arian joined the company in 2019 and overseas marketing efforts worldwide. As such, he's responsible for all initiatives across the marketing funnel from brand social performance and innovation. We started by talking about this omnichannel approach.Arjan: (01:03)The role of marketing is to accelerate momentum. Uh, so you have to be very, very, very thoughtful where you invest and when you invest, because if there is no momentum in the market, it doesn't really make sense to really spend a lot of money and and convincing people to, to spend money. We look at more than 200 countries in the, in the world and we're really looking like, okay, what's going on in that country? Are we really sure we should weigh in or not? And especially during the pandemic, you can imagine this was kind of a daily, uh, monitoring, uh, because things moved very rapidly and you had, you had to deal with lockdowns and then suddenly demand would drop, uh, completely. And booking.com with my team, we've been able to manage through that in a very flexible mindset. And I think that flexible mindset is still helping us right now.Arjan: (01:51)'cause we're really looking very carefully like, oh, does this work? Oh, yes, it works. Let's invest a bit more. Invest a bit more. Okay, now it's enough. Now we go into other channels and I talk a lot about the role of different channels. So I personally always hate the difference between brand marketing, performance marketing. Uh, one of the key things when I started at the company almost five years ago is that, is that we would report separately on our performance marketing spend versus brand marketing spend. I'm like, you know what? Let's not do that anymore. Uh, it's the same money it should perform. And clearly when you work in what we call low intent channels, you have different objectives. Yeah. So low intent, our channels like pr, social media, general, TV advertising, all those kind of good things, but they drive awareness and consideration. They don't necessarily drive an immediate booking where we also work in other channels where it's more about immediate booking.Damian: (02:44)It's very interesting to hear you talk about looking at that data from all these different markets you are in. I mean, how do you stay on top of that? It sounds quite strategic and quite data-driven.Arjan: (02:55)We are very data-driven. I do think that anyone in marketing now nowadays needs to be data driven. And you know, you can imagine that I have a, a big marketing team, but I can assure you that probably 30% of them are kind of hardcore data scientists. And these are people who are day in, day out will look at effectiveness of our campaigns and then report back and say, Hey, we expect that actually this to happen. But it didn't. And sometimes results are very intuitive and sometimes results are not very intuitive. And I think being honest about that is very important.Damian: (03:25)In 2023, we had a little bit of a resurgence of optimism in the economy after 2022, and it seems that business travel is back in popularity. The summer of 2023 saw record numbers even from even before the pandemic. I'm wondering from your perspective, how has booking.com experienced this post pandemic travel surge? Is that predicted to continue?Arjan: (03:47)Yeah, so one of the great learnings I think from the pandemic is that people have just this amazing desire to travel. That's exactly what it is about. You know, like each of us, you know, you probably will agree, is that when it's holiday time, you're like, oh my God, this is amazing. I'm, I'm going away in a different environment. I'm experiencing different food, different people, uh, different weather, et cetera, et cetera. So the Pandemic was a huge confirmation of travel just being an enormous part of people's life. And of all the things that you experience in your, in your life, supposedly only 12% you actively remember. Uh, so, uh, from everything that you experience in your life. And the reality is that probably those trips you've made, those special trips, that wonderful Weekend to Paris or that amazing time in in Wyoming, those are the things that you remember. And I think travel plays really a, a big role. You could argue that the experiences almost are more valued than material, uh, possessions, uh, because what is better than a, a wonderful experience. So that was a huge confirmation of what we probably intrinsically already knew. But you see that especially after the pandemic, there was a thing, uh, called revenge Travel. You might remember that term. Other people were like, you know what? I don't care. I'm getting out of here.Damian: (05:03)I'm curious to get your perspective on how you're using that data. We've just talked about Antech, you know, to personalize that user experience and, and the way you kind of focus on the different types of travelers within your marketing efforts.Arjan: (05:16)What we try to do is make it easy for people to book, uh, with us, but then also book again. And we have a program called a Genius program that really makes it more interesting also for the more casual traveler to book with us. You know, when you stay with us a little bit more, you go up a level and there are actually three levels that you can, uh, can achieve. And that means you can get a little bit more benefit. I do think that the mindset around business travel has changed significantly after the pandemic. Uh, I look at myself before the pandemic, I would jump in a plane for a meeting of two, three hours. Now Aari will say, can I do this on a Zoom callDamian: (05:49)From the US perspective, I know you're the official partner of the Major League Baseball League here and um, latest campaign features Ken Griffey Jr. And last year the Brand Somewhere, anywhere campaign featured Melissa McCarthy, which debuted during the Super Bowl, which of course is nearly already sold out for 2024. I'm wondering, you know, how does booking.com pair sports lovers with what your overall strategy is? What do you, how do you think about that?Arjan: (06:16)I do think as a brand, it's incredibly important that you're part of the zeitgeist. Uh, and if you look at where people are spending their time and where their passions lie, sports play a huge role. I think the top 10, you know, most viewed television programs will all be sports. That's kind of the reality of today. And so that, that if you want to reach a mass audience that is engaged in an area that is very much in the zeitgeist, you cannot ignore sports anymore. Mass reach has become actually quite, quite difficult. And we really believe by being part of tournaments where people are really passionate about their sports will really show up. Well. The key aim in the US is also that people know us as, uh, a brand that's very good for outbound travel. Yeah. So if you want to travel outside of the us but we also want to really reiterate, hey, we're a brand that's also fantastic for domestic travel, and we have a little tag line is that says where, where there's how I said where, where there's baseball, there's booking has gone.Damian: (07:13)And then I guess, you know, you are align with different sports in different markets. Obviously Europe must be, we have to say the word soccer, but Europe is soccer, right?Arjan: (07:21)Yeah. So, uh, we're proud sponsors and we have been of ufa, which is a big deal, you know, live stops in Europe. Uh, so when, when the major games are on, you know, you can probably, uh, skate on, on, on a highway because you know, there is no traffic. But we also have done ICC crickets, which if you're not into cricket, you're like, what is this? But I can assure you there are more than a billion people passionately care about, uh, a cricket, especially in India, Australia, uh, South Africa, uh, the uk. Uh, so those are markets where cricket is immensely popular. We're also, were proud sponsors of the FIFA Women's World Cup. So I I was very happy with that. 'cause you see also that that sport is really increasing so dramatically and wonderful to be part of that.Damian: (08:06)And you mentioned how sports are being fragmented across streaming platforms. Does that complicate your efforts when it comes to marketing, or do you just have to be more tuned into that omni-channel approach that we were talking about?Arjan: (08:19)We really care also about the kind of communal moments. Yeah. So what are the times that you're sitting with your friends or family and you are watching together? And when you show up in those moments, we think it's really powerful. The strategy of showing up in more individual channels is more kind of a one-on-one approach, uh, where you are on your phone or you're on your computer or you're on your iPad watching something that interests specifically you. But being part of those kind of communal moments, we really care about that.Damian: (08:50)Booking.com is owned by Booking Holdings, which owns a host of other, uh, websites including priceline.com, a goda.com, kayak, cheap Flights, rental Cars, and OpenTable amongst others. I'm wondering, you know, what's the synergy like between the companies when it comes to marketing? Is, is the same data applied across all brands? WeArjan: (09:11)Operate quite independently, and that's on purpose. Uh, I'm a, I'm a strong believer in kind of healthy competition. Uh, so, so really keeping each other honest, being very focused on our very specific segments of the market. And with a goda price line have, we're addressing a more specific price conscious, uh, segment in the market. Booking at com is a little bit more for everyone. Kayak is clearly in a very specific industry. And the same for OpenTable. We meet every month. So I meet with the heads of marketing of, of every brand once a month, and we really talk through our marketing strategies and really, of course, try to learn from each other.Damian: (09:45)Are there any specific challenges or obstacles you, you've encountered when it comes to implementing this omnichannel strategy? What, what are your kind of main challenges?Arjan: (09:55)We have a slightly different model probably than most companies is that, uh, we have very strong relationships with a couple of key ad platforms and we do that direct. Uh, so we don't really have an intermediary, we don't have an agency, so we work directly with Meta, Facebook, Instagram, we work directly with YouTube and, and, and Google. And that approach has, in my perspective, big advantages. It also has clearly disadvantages that you have to staff up and you have to really understand, you know, how things work and you need to be able to manage the technology.Damian: (10:27)Booking.com operates in over 208 countries and you know, you're talking about strategies across all those different languages, cultures, regional preferences, and presumably, you know, economies are different as well in different parts of the world. How do you sort of manage all of that?Arjan: (10:43)The key thing to, to realize is that there's also a lot of commonality. And so, so you shouldn't underestimate that wherever you are in the world. We're kind of all human beings and we kind of all do the same things. And the joke I often make is that if you think of a romantic dinner, so imagine you are in Japan or you are in Columbia or you're in North America, romantic dinner is a romantic dinner. It generally involves two people. It generally involves some nice food and and drinks. And it generally involves a nice table with people seated. Uh, there, it generally doesn't involve loud music, it has kind of soft music. You could argue that of course a romantic dinner in Japan. It's very different to Columbia. But there are also lots of commonalities. And what we are trying to do is really focus on the kind of commonalities that were set up in our campaigns in the right way, from a measurement point of view, from a data point of view, from the way we go to market.Arjan: (11:39)And then suddenly we're, we're actually very effective in tailoring our language, our messages to someone in Japan versus Columbia. But the fundamentals are intrinsically the same. One key thing I really care about is truth telling that as a brand, you tell the truth about yourself. And I think a lot of brands actually go wrong there, that they claim to be something that they aren't. And it doesn't mean you need to be boring or non engaging, but you should be very clear about the position you have in people's lives. And the position we have in people's lives is, you know, what we're the best at just getting it out of the way. Book that kind of great place and 1, 2, 3, you are done. And that's the reason we're also using booking.com booking. Yeah. 'cause yeah, it's that kind of positive feeling of, hey, it's out of the way.Damian: (12:22)I read an interview with CEO Glenn Fogel in the FT actually talking about AI and how the company's preparing for the AI era. And he said something along the lines of AI can take the friction out of holiday planning. I'm wondering if that's a focus for you from the marketing seat that you are in.Arjan: (12:40)Generative AI clearly has many aspects. Uh, so, and Glenn is really talking about the traveler experience, really making sure we take the friction out of everything and that we more or less are able to predict much better what your next step would be based on, you know, on those models. I do think that in marketing specifically, there is probably also a huge productivity opportunity by using generative ai, be it in how we do our performance marketing, but also how we develop, uh, creatives. Uh, we're experimenting with AI generated videos that we're putting out on, on, on YouTube that are very tailored to very specific searches that people are doing on, on YouTube. I really focus with my team also on that kind of productivity side of it. Uh, can we really make, again, every dollar work a little bit harder using smart technology?Damian: (13:32)Are there any other emerging technologies or trends? Uh, I mean, one thought was the focus on sustainability, for instance, that will have an impact on future omnichannel marketing efforts.Arjan: (13:43)The interesting thing is that as any company in the world and especially a company in travel, sustainability is clearly something you have to just obsess about. It's something that is really important and I talk a lot about purpose. Uh, what is the purpose of, of our company? What is the purpose in in our marketing? And I really see sustainability as kind of, kind of foundational you would expect from any reputable company to really care about this and that we each contribute to, uh, helping improve sustainability in, in the world.Damian: (14:19)And that's it for the current podcast. We'll be back next week with Barbara Shipley, senior Vice President of Brand integration at A A RP. The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. A theme is by loving caliber. The current podcast team includes Chris Ley and Cat Bessie. And remember,Arjan: (14:37)One key thing I really care about is truth telling at that as a brand, you tell the truth about yourself. And I think a lot of brands actually go wrong there, that they claim to be something that they aren't. And it doesn't mean you need to be boring or non engaging, but you should be very clear about the position you have in people's lives.Damian: (14:54)And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave as a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report as we round up the week's biggest marketing headlines from across the open internet. I'm Damien and I'll see you next time.

Fresh off pandemic fame, Moderna wants consumers to know how it’s applying mRNA technology to reimagine health and wellness. Among other strategies, the company is leaning into sports and music to reach consumers when they’re likely to be most receptive.  Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. Damian Fowler: (00:01)I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse Lieffring: (00:02)And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.Damian Fowler: (00:03)And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.Ilyse Lieffring: (00:10)This week we sit down with Kate Cronin, the chief brand Officer for Moderna.Damian Fowler: (00:15)Moderna is a biotech company based in Cambridge, Massachusetts. The focuses on MRNA therapies and vaccines against a wide range of illnesses including cancer, COVID-19 and the flu.Ilyse Lieffring: (00:26)Although the company was founded in 2010, it became a familiar brand name during the pandemic when it received full approval for its CVID 19 vaccine by the US Food and Drug Administration.Damian Fowler: (00:38)Since then, it's positioned itself to become a more commercial company and it's opening up direct to consumer marketing channels using digital messaging to reach healthcare providers and patients alike.Kate Cronin: (00:53)If you think about the healthcare landscape and where we are, we came out of a pandemic that changed everything. The pandemic turned every company into a healthcare company because companies were focused on the health and wellbeing of either their employees or their constituents or their customers. And that means hotels, airlines, travel, restaurants. It changed everything. And I think what happened is in a post pandemic world, people are laser focused on health and wellness. And looking at Moderna, we are leaning into that new focus on health and wellness and new understanding of health and wellness. And so as a company, we're leaning in on educating the world about our technology and what we believe we're going to do to change the future of healthcare.Damian Fowler: (01:40)And on that point, how has that impacted the way you go to market and the way you have rolled out marketing strategies? I understand it's a pretty big shift for the brand.Kate Cronin: (01:50)For the first 10 years of Moderna's life, we were an r and d company, so we focused on research and development. That means we studied products, the lab, and we did not have any products commercialized, so we never took a product to market. When Covid struck our CEO realized, hey, we have an opportunity with mRNA to see if our technology works against Covid. And the good news is it did. And so we are super proud of the fact that our first commercial product was for Covid, shot in the arms of billions of people around the world, literally prevented serious disease and hospitalization. And so that changed our company. And because the pandemic was the first time when people actually asked for a vaccine or knew their vaccine by name, you know, people would walk around and say, I, you know, I've got Pfizer or I got Moderna, or whatever it was.Kate Cronin: (02:39)And they were proud of the fact that they got the shot to prevent Covid. And so there was instant brand recognition. So Moderna was not a household name until the pandemic and suddenly became a global brand. Everybody knew the name Moderna and what everybody knew was Moderna was a company that manufactured a COVID-19 vaccine. What they didn't know is everything else that we were doing. And so I was hired in the middle of the pandemic to start educating around who is Moderna? What is our brand? What do we stand for? What's our identity and how do we reach consumers about the future of MRA technology and where we're going beyond covid. That's been the the focus. And that's not just for healthcare providers. People were getting it from pharmacists. They were not going to their doctors to get shots. So it was a very much of a consumer driven market. And because it was consumer driven, that's where I was leaning in on my focus on consumers and educating them about mRNA. So many people had it in their arms, did they know exactly what it did and why should they care? We started changing the dynamic in terms of how we reach our audiences.Damian Fowler: (03:45)Would you mind defining what mRNA is? I know it's in the name of the company, Moderna.Kate Cronin: (03:51)Interestingly, the agency that I worked at named Moderna, it's basically about mRNA. And mRNA is known as Messenger ribonucleic acid. And mRNA is a molecule that contains a set of instructions or a recipe, if you will, that direct cells to make a protein using the body's natural machinery to fight disease or prevent disease. And that's really what it is. It's a set of instructions and if you think about Moderna, the name, we came up with Moderna because it's modern, we believe we're gonna transform medicines, but it has RNA at the end. So it was very, it was a very nice play on modern and then RNA, so ModernaDamian Fowler: (04:33)A perfect brand name.Kate Cronin: (04:35)Yeah, yeah, it worked out. It worked out really well.Ilyse Lieffring: (04:37)Do you think Covid and Vaccine Awareness opened up new direct to consumer channels? Do you think it's good timing with immunization season?Kate Cronin: (04:47)So I think COVID definitely opened up new channels and here's why. People started to really care about vaccination in ways they never did before. During the pandemic, you weren't able to go out, you weren't able to see your friends, you weren't able to see your family. Getting the vaccine meant everything and getting the vaccine meant you were able to live your life again. And so you cared about that vaccine and you wanted to know who makes this vaccine. You wanted to know what's in this vaccine and why is it letting me get back to my life? How does it work? How does it all work? I mean, imagine, you know, pre pandemic when you would get your flu shot, people get the flu shot, it's great and you just know you're gonna prevent flu. In the pandemic world, you got your covid shot and it meant everything to you.Kate Cronin: (05:29)And so there became this loyalty to the brand that started. You know, you never knew who manufactured your flu shot, generally speaking, you just generically asked for a flu shot. But when Covid struck and you'd get your booster, you said, well, I got Moderna before, so now I want my Moderna booster. And you were loyal to Moderna, A fandom was created. How do we build on that? People who are fans wanna know like, how do I interact with this company? And you know, what's next? And when we launch a flu vaccine or a combination Covid flu vaccine, we want people to understand, oh, that's the company that brought me the Covid shot. I understand mRNA and I understand what I'm putting in my body. As you know, there was a lot of debate and discussion about these new vaccines and can they be trusted? And the reality is, if you understand the technology and that it's a set of instructions and it's teaching your body to fight, you understand that this new technology is effective and tolerable and there are, it was generated with safety in mind. As we move into new categories, it's the same methodology and it's not a new chemical entity, it's just a new set of instructions. And that's why we think it's important for people to understand it. So as we launch new products, they don't have to understand the intricacy, but the general gist of how it works,Ilyse Lieffring: (06:41)How would you say Moderna is going about fusing this education in with its marketing strategy?Kate Cronin: (06:49)So knowing that we want to reach folks and educate them, we lean in on this idea of education and entertainment, which I'm calling edutainment. People retain more when they're being entertained, I think. And so with that in mind, we're reaching people where they are. So instead of lecturing consumers about, you know, you need to get vaccinated, we spend more time engaging with them when they're at sporting events or when they're at concerts, reaching them when they're having fun and they're open to hearing more. So for example, at the US Open, we sponsored it two years in a row and as a sponsor we also have a booth and we're able to engage with consumers at the booth. They can download a QR code, they can sign the lens, which is something that champions do. And then they, we create a boomerang they can use on social media and then they can become part of the Moderna community where people are able to opt in and say, yeah, I wanna hear more from Moderna.Kate Cronin: (07:43)Same thing with the iHeart Music Festival. And we actually had wristbands where they could download a QR code, find out where they can get their vaccines, so go to vaccines.gov. And also Ryan Seacrest did some informational podcast stuff for us and he announced the concert and you know, announced this idea of stay healthy, stay up to date, get your vaccine, bringing this model in. We also looked at habits of consumers and there are people who are religious about getting their flu shot. Those are the people where you say, well if you're religious about getting your flu shot, how do we make sure you also get your covid shot? And the CDC says it's safe to get your flu and your covid shot at the same time in terms of compliance. It's easier to get that message and say while you're at the pharmacy getting your flu shot, get your covid shot and then you don't have to go back for another visit. And that increases compliance as well. The future for Covid is gonna be very similar to flu once a year, get your flu shot, get your covid shot, and then you don't have to get another one until the next year. That's for most people. I think for the highly immune compromise or the elderly, there might be a boost needed in the spring, but the current recommendation is once a year.Damian Fowler: (08:45)It's fascinating to hear you talk about, you know, using sports, using music celebrities, you know, to reach audiences. And I know that Moderna has taken this omnichannel approach using these very tailored messages. And I know your CCO talked about this as a priority. Could you talk a little bit more about that omnichannel approach across different digital channels is an effective way of reaching, I mean an audience of potential patients, I suppose is the way of putting it.Kate Cronin: (09:10)We're in a world where the channels where people get their information has exploded. 10 years ago we didn't have Instagram, TikTok, pharma traditionally would use DTC advertising. And so we look specifically at our audiences and where they are, where they get their information, including inline broadcast tv. I mean a lot of older people watch, you know, shows like CBS this morning. If you think about when I find myself watching CBS this morning, I've sort of realized I'm I'm, I've hit a certain age, but uh, , we also do media buys based on where we have sponsorships. So we did a whole thing with series of ads with ESPM where we did a changemaker campaign where we celebrated changemakers. So last year we celebrated Billie Jean King. This year we did creative that celebrated Arthur Ashe. Again, Moderna is really associating ourselves with change makers because we believe we are change makers in the healthcare industry, which is part of our platform.Ilyse Lieffring: (10:33)Now Moderna has to work directly with healthcare professionals. Would you say the same channels to reach consumers are also just as beneficial perhaps in reaching those healthcare professionals?Kate Cronin: (10:44)Healthcare professionals, they get a lot of their information through journals and studies. And I like to say the number one journal that physicians read is the Wall Street Journal. So we really push out our data and our clinical trial information through earned media and also specific to physicians. There are medical meetings and associations where they get their information, but we've been incredibly transparent as a company. When we get new data out, we issue a press release, we call top journalists, let them know. We offer up our executives and our doctors as spokespeople to share the information and spend more time with the journalists. This has been like this through the entire pandemic. And I think that's one thing about Moderna is we are incredibly open and transparent with everything in our data. And so I think earned media is the fastest way to get information out. Once you issue a press release, you're able to talk to the media directly and then folks trust the media and they're gonna give an unbiased objective story.Ilyse Lieffring: (11:40)Now I know during covid, like social media was full of disinformation regarding Covid and it was a challenge for any company. Do you feel that disinformation is still a big challenge?Kate Cronin: (11:52)Challenge As a company, we need to focus on what we do well, which is deliver the science and deliver the information and education around the science. We've struggled with disinformation about Moderna and about our executives and we look at that through the lens of what can we change and what should we change and what do we just need to leave alone because we're never gonna be able to change. We then focus on education. We also did some things with kind of debunking myths. We actually hired somebody to do some work with our employees on pre debunking myths versus facts and getting our ed, our employees educated on, here's some things you're gonna be hearing about on the internet or from friends and family and here are a set of facts that you can use to debunk some of the things that you might be hearing so that our employees are better armed with information and can be good ambassadors for the brand.Damian Fowler: (12:43)Now I guess, you know, other biotech companies must also be kind of lockstep with you in the sense of that myth or debunking or myth busting. But at the same time I'm wondering, you know, about the space and your sense of place in it. How do you think about the space?Kate Cronin: (12:58)So we are very different from a pharmaceutical company in that we are a platform technology company. So when you look at competitors, we don't really see pharma as competitors. We see ourselves as a unicorn because we are a platform technology company. An analogy would be Apple with the iOS system and Apple's iOS system is basically everything runs off of iOS and when you have a new app, it's off of the iOS. So it's updates to the iOS. We look at our mRNA platform the same way we have mRNA platform technology and whenever we have a new product, new vaccine, new therapy, it's basically like an updated app to the iOS system. So we take that iOS, we recode for a new product using mRNA, and then we tweak it based on the needs. So for example, we have a flu vaccine that we're studying. We had to tweak it because we're working off of one system and we're basically recoding the product. We were able to update it very quickly and study a newer version of it. And then that's the one that we're gonna be continuing to study and hopefully, you know, launch, it's very unusual 'cause when a pharma company has a product, it's a new chemical entity, they call it an NCE, they test it. If it fails, it's done, it's over, they have to start over again. We don't start over again. We can tweak and modify very quickly. So we have agility in a platform.Damian Fowler: (14:20)Yeah, that's a fascinating analogy. And at the same time, you know, you're creating these new products and you obviously have to give them brand names too. I know that the Covid vaccine isn't, isn't now Spike vax, right? For instance.Kate Cronin: (14:32)So it's an interesting conundrum. As I said earlier, the pandemic made Moderna a household name. So now we're out of the pandemic and we're an endemic market. An endemic market, you have to have a brand name, I wanted to name it Moderna COVID-19 vaccine. And they don't let you do that. They won't let you do that, you have to call it something. So the team came up with Spike Vax, but we couldn't just call it Spike Vax because no one's gonna know what Spike Vax is. So we call it Spike Vax by Moderna. If you think about consumer branding overall, there's this idea of a branded house or you have a house of brands. We are a combination of a hybrid of a branded house and a house of brands. So hybridizing it is making sure the company name is included because everyone knows our name and also attaching it to a product name. And then there are other ways to connect the dots in terms of the brand. So we have little M that shows up. And then just in terms of the architecture, the visual architecture works when you have different products that you're launching. 'cause we want people to know when they see it, they go, oh, that's a Moderna product. So Bio Moderna is very intentional in terms of how we brandIlyse Lieffring: (10:02)Can you tell us a little bit about what the Spike Vax by Moderna campaign looks like?Kate Cronin: (10:07)Spike Vax by Moderna is our branded campaign and it's about all the things you do with your body. You know, you exercise that body, you provide nutrients to that body, you spike vax, that body. And so just normalizing what you do with your body. It's just like you wanna keep your body healthy and you wanna live your life and do all the things you do with that body. Spike vax, that body. We also say, you know, you flu shot that body spike vax, that bodyIlyse Lieffring: (15:36)Now. What has aligned with kind of the rise of healthcare data and general consumer interest in their healthcare has also been the rise of retail media and data being that Moderna is going direct to consumer. How important is retail data to its vaccine marketing?Kate Cronin: (15:54)We look at data and analytics, that's something that drives everything that we do. If you think about Covid vaccines, we're able to look on a weekly basis and see how many people are getting shots in arms, where are they getting the shots? All the way from when it goes to the wholesaler to when it's shipped to the retail pharmacies. We have a good sense of the penetration of the market in terms of vaccination and we can see regionally attitudes as well. You know, where are people inclined to get a vaccine, where are they on the fence? And so we're able to target our efforts and educational efforts in markets where we think we can move the needle and where we can get people to understand the importance of going and getting their vaccine. We work closely also with the retailers, the CVSs and the Walgreens of the world who are working with us to educate and use their channels as well to make sure that when people are in the store, they are hearing information about staying up to date with their COVID-19 vaccine. So super important to have that information. It's also important to know where are their outbreaks of covid, how many outbreaks there are, what are the hospital, what are the weekly hospitalization rates? Because Covid continues to be quite serious. People are still getting sick unfortunately. And so we're monitoring that as well. And that informs a lot of our marketing efforts also.Damian Fowler: (17:10)Do you think there's still more work to be done in the sort of educating the consumer about the virus? I mean, I've heard people say, well I've had Covid or I've had my covid shot, so I therefore I have antibodies, I don't need to get a shot. I mean, how, how do you think about these different cohorts?Kate Cronin: (17:26)There's the people who, who are gonna go and get vaccinated. There're the folks who are hearing misinformation and saying, you know, I'm just not sure should I, I've already had COID. So those are the people we really need to lean in on because we need them to understand. We just need to do our part and educate people on that. And then there's the, the vaccine fatiguers. That's a new category. This is a new category based on covid. I mean, vaccine fatigue is not anti-Vax vaccine fatigue is someone who did the right thing. They went every time they got all their shots and they're tired of getting shots. They're tired of being told they need to get another vaccine. And those are folks who are, you know, they wanna do the right thing, but they're just, they're tired of it. The market has changed. It's a one shot, not a booster system anymore.Kate Cronin: (18:10)You get one shot just like flu and then you go back the next year. Them understanding that is important too. 'cause then they know that the vaccination plan is normalized. We've been focused on this idea of stay up to date, stay vaccinated. Our campaign is called No Time for 19, the Unbranded campaign. Get your flu shot, get your covid shot, stay healthy. And that's the focus. So we don't even mention spike vax and that's intentional because we are all about market growth in terms of get people vaccinated and a rising tide floats all boats. That's very different from a very branded campaign where you're leaning in on product attributes versus your competitors. In this particular case, we're more about getting people into the pharmacy and getting their vaccine. So that's our focus.Damian Fowler: (19:05)And that's it for this edition of the current podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.Ilyse Lieffring: (19:10)And if you love this podcast, be sure to subscribe and leave a review. While you're at it, check out our other show, the current report, our weekly roundup of what's happening in the world of digital media. The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce.Damian Fowler: (19:29)And remember,Kate Cronin: (19:30)Edutainment people retain more when they're being entertained. We're reaching people where they are. We spend more time engaging with them when they're at sporting events or when they're at concerts, reaching them when they're having fun and they're open to hearing more.Damian Fowler: (19:44)I'm DamianIlyse Lieffring: (19:45)And I'm Ilyse,Damian Fowler: (19:46)And we'll see you next time.

As a 102-year-old brand, White Castle has become a niche part of culture, from the “Harold & Kumar Go to White Castle” movie to people getting married at the restaurant. Jamie Richardson, VP of marketing and public relations, discusses maintaining the White Castle brand as a pop culture icon. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. DAMIAN (00:01):I'm Damian Fowler.ILYSE (00:02):And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. AndDAMIAN (00:04):Welcome to this edition of the current podcast.ILYSE (00:10):This week we sit down with Jamie Richardson, VP of Marketing and Public Relations at White Castle, the 100 and 2-year-old brand that's been part of pop culture and a mainstay in American fast food since it was opened by founder Billy Ingram as a family business in 1921. It now operates around 342 US locations.DAMIAN (00:32):From the 2004 film, Harold and Kumar go to White Castle to making headlines for hosting weddings. White Castle manages to maintain its status as a pop culture icon while innovating in new areas like grocery and delivery.JAMIE RICHARDSON (00:53):Well, you know, when you work at White Castle, you get calls from all over the world, and one fine day somebody called their 800 line, and I had the opportunity to speak to this person and they said they were from Hollywood, and that there's this film about two likable underdogs who spent an evening of misadventure looking for White Castle. So we said, sure, send us the script. And then I remember taking the script home and taking a look at it, and they forgot to mention it was rated R for raunchy. So that was a little surprising. Um, but, uh, we had some good debate internally. And then I had the opportunity to talk to our CEO and third generation leader, uh, bill Ingram. I had the perfect pitch down. I was really ready to, to sell this big idea. I remember walking into Bill's office and panicking, and the first thing I blurted out was, it has sex, drugs, and rock and roll. Other than that, it's really good for us. And he kind of paused and looked up and said, what in the world are you talking about? And when I told him a little bit more, he, he looked and said, well, as long as it doesn't make fun of our team members, I'm fine with it. So that's how the greatest film that never won an Academy award. Harold and Kumar go to White Castle, got green-lighted thanks to Bill Ingram. That'sILYSE (01:59):Great. It must have helped business. What would you say are other unique aspects of White Castle, whether it's like the menu, branding or history and how that contributes also to its ongoing presence in pop culture?JAMIE RICHARDSON (02:12):You know, I think for us it's about being relevant and being resonant and having a reverence from where we've been, but also at the same time connecting with consumers today where they are. So, um, certainly at the base of it all, it's about hot, tasty, affordable food. Just like our founder Billy Ingram imagined at the very beginning, he really believed every family should be able to have an affordable evening out. Um, and but beyond that, I think we've been able to be a part of people's, uh, memorable moments and, and that connects us emotionally beyond the physical properties of product and the utilitarian value of food. So keeps it fun and real.ILYSE (02:44):And do you guys have like a lot of traditions when it comes to that? It seems, um, it, it seems to play a big role at White Castle, actually. Your burgers have pretty much stayed consistent and then certain traditions have continued on, such as like people get married at White Castle, which is super fun. And then you have a Valentine's Day celebration now, I believe in its 32nd year. Why is it important to continue traditions that consumers know and love? YouJAMIE RICHARDSON (03:13):Know, I think for White Castle, uh, as a family owned business that's been around for 102 years, our neighbors and friends are the people we serve every day in each of the communities we're in. So for us, uh, you know, around Valentine's Day, white Castle becomes love castle and people make reservations three months in advance to get that special seeding. And I think it's us not taking ourselves too seriously and having some fun with it and recognizing we, we exist to feed the souls of Craver generations everywhere.DAMIAN (03:39):Now, Jamie, you mentioned, uh, the word relevant, which obviously is key to any brand, you know, staying relevant and especially in the sector that you are in a competitive restaurant and fast food category. I'm wondering how White Castle has adapted to changing consumer taste and trends, um, whilst it's preserving this 102 year old iconic status.JAMIE RICHARDSON (03:58):I, I think for us it's about not being locked into something that we've done just because that's the way we've done it before. It's about meeting people where they are. And the best way to do that is ask good questions, listen intently, and then have that be the foundation for your actions. So, um, we're big believers in consumer research. We're big believers in getting out and talking to the team members and talking with our customers, whether that's on the retail side of our business where we sell, uh, sliders in the grocery store or in our restaurants at the Drive-through or in the dining room. So for us, it's really about listening. And that might sound a little cliche, but we actively lean into it and treat it as a discipline and part of who we are. Um, our vision is feed the souls of Craver generations everywhere. You can't do that if you don't know what people are hungry for. So that's a, a constant focus for us and, and we learn and grow because needs and desires change as time goes on.DAMIAN (04:50):You mentioned, uh, adding a grocery business, uh, as well as delivery options. Could you talk a little bit about how the consumer data or leaning into that consumer data played a role in that decision and adding that delivery option for White Castle?JAMIE RICHARDSON (05:04):Absolutely. I think we saw that especially as hot and tasty, affordable food became more available through delivery partnerships. It's something we leaned into early. So hey, we're small in the grand scheme of things on the restaurant side, you know, we're a regional player, we have 342 restaurants, so we're not monolithic, we're not global, but in each of our neighborhoods, we want to be a big part of everyone's, uh, opportunity for great food. So when delivery came along, we quickly, uh, were able to forge great partnerships with all the different delivery partners, and we found our customers loved it. It was just one more way to be able to experience the crave, and they told us again and again, um, that that was something they wanted available to 'em. So it's great to be there 24 7, like most of our restaurants are, uh, having another option in terms of how to enjoy the food just seemed to make sense to us and we're really happy we jumped in when we did and we're continuing to grow and build that side of the business.DAMIAN (05:55):And, and you mentioned market research. What are the types of consumer demographics that you research, uh, on that crave continuum?JAMIE RICHARDSON (06:03):You know, that's interesting. Uh, the Crave continuum is something we created, uh, or discovered is probably a better way to say it. So we created language around it, but it, and in many ways it is taking the traditional demographics and psychographics so many of us lean into as marketers and putting it into the super collider and, and smashing it to bits and starting over. So we've been able to build it really around behaviors. So it isn't purely just the demographics. Um, for us it's about understanding two key things in terms of people's relationship to White Castle, their fandom and how frequently they visit us, so, uh, or purchase in the grocery store. So from that lens, we're able to understand where people are at in the continuum from crave cautious at one end for those souls we haven't connected to yet, but we will someday to crave committed at the other end of the spectrum with crave curious and crave casual in between. So it's been a really rich way for us to explore messaging. It's been a really rich way for us to explore media with all of our different agency partners in terms of how to get the, the right messages to the right people at the right time.ILYSE (07:06):Speaking about what you call Cravers and the fandom around that, um, you've created really this whole culture around it. What is White Castle doing to continue to support and market this culture and why is it important for a brand to have such a culture anyway?JAMIE RICHARDSON (07:23):Well, I think purpose is what it all comes down to. So, uh, if you know why it exists, it makes it a lot more fun to invest your time and energy and talent, uh, towards creating something that's meant to last that's meaningful. And when, um, we discovered the strong emotional connection so many have with White Castle, we realized that that was gold. That you can, you can spend a lot of money, can come up with a lot of great ideas and things that look good on the chalkboard, but when you have something like that, that's such a great attribute to be able to connect with people in that way. So I think around that idea of craving, we understood there's language that unlocked how so many people felt. And um, as I mentioned earlier, that listening part really played a role in that. So we literally hired a trained psychologist to interview some of our biggest fans and over and over and over again, one word, um, you know, was, was echoed and it was, I get a certain craving for him, I crave 'em late at night, I crave 'em at breakfast. And, um, including one gentleman who told a story about taking white castles on an airplane, and then he named one of our competitors, I won't say their name, and he said, you never see anyone carrying that brand onto an airplane now, do you? right. People love White Castle. Is that right? That told us we were in the right direction.DAMIAN (08:38):You know, we talk about meeting people where they are and when it comes to this younger generation, often they're, you know, across social media. How are you kind of, uh, thinking about your campaigns across all these different platforms that young people, you know, are looking at exploring, even gaming? Are any of those channels places where White Castle campaigns are kind of prominent?JAMIE RICHARDSON (08:56):I think primarily it's, uh, the notion that we wanna be as distinctive and as individualistic as this next generation of consumers is going to be and already is. And so for us it's just knowing the, the place you're at. So don't try and make one size fits all, so don't try and take something that you posted on Facebook and turn it into a TikTok. Um, you know, do it in a way that meets, uh, the viewer's expectations that provides engagement and candidly entertainment, if you will. Uh, you know, having fun with it. We are just, um, in the midst of a really cool recipe contest where Adam Richmond, the food beast, is serving as one of the judges and, uh, encouraging people to have fun with the food. And it's not a selling message, it's an engagement message. And I think that part of it is really essential in terms of how you make those connections and make, make 'em authentic.DAMIAN (09:45):I like that distinction. It's not a selling message, it's an engagement message that, that's interesting. IILYSE (09:49):Also know that White Castle locations and how those are run play a big factor in creating a good business. White Castle founder Billy Ingram said, I believe happy employees make happy customers. Can you talk a little bit about that?JAMIE RICHARDSON (10:04):So we are so fortunate as a family owned business to have so many of our 10,000 team members who are really, uh, in it for the long haul. In fact, more than one in four have been with White Castle 10 years or more. And among our general managers for the restaurants, the average tenure is 21 years. Uh, so I think a few people retired last year, so we had a turnover rate of 3%. But it's really, really cool to see that engagement and that focus to the point where for the third year in a row, we've been certified as a great place to work. We're the only fast food and food manufacturing business that's on that list. So it's really an honor and tough demanding circumstances to know we're there with our team members in lockstep to help satisfy the crave any way we can every single day of the year.DAMIAN (10:46):I wanna ask you a little bit about the kind of nostalgic feel that White Castle has kind of created and especially for different generations and how you think about the different generations when it comes to your marketing. Yeah,JAMIE RICHARDSON (10:58):I think for us it's really about constancy of purpose. So we, we don't run away from the word nostalgia, but rather than it being evocative of times past, we want it to be in present tense. We want it to be something where that emotional reward is just as present today, even if it takes slightly different form than it did earlier. A big part of that is the great value we provide in so many ways. In 1927, we were the first restaurant chain to say, Hey, what if you came in and picked up your food and took it home? So we were the first restaurant that we've ever found that was offering carryout, and we started doing that by selling 'em by the sack. So you could get each individual hamburger in its own little carton and a sack of 10 Togo. And later on that led to the Crave Case and then the Crave Crate, and then, uh, for a brief time the Crave Palette. But you know, it took us a little longer to make 7,000 Burgers than we thought. So that's no longer on the menu, but if you, if you call us, we'll take good care of you.DAMIAN (11:52):But you've also now launched a campaign called Micro Castle that promotes the idea that anyone with a microwave can have their White Castle at home thanks to the burgers in grocery stores. Could you talk a little bit how that came to be the strategy behind promoting buying sliders at grocery stores over the physical retail locations?JAMIE RICHARDSON (12:10):Absolutely. So it's so much fun because it's another great story about listening. So our third generation leader, uh, and CEO, bill Ingram visited every restaurant every year. And in one of his visits in a New York Castle, he saw a person like literally leaving with four acts of 10. So he just wandered over and said hello and said, oh, are you off to a party? Are you, he goes, oh, no, no, no, no, I put these in my freezer. And then Bill leaned in, so what do you do with them in your freezer? He said, oh, I've got a new appliance that I use to reheat 'em. It's called the Microwave Oven . And, uh, and so Bill thought, Hmm, you know, people are microwaving our sliders. Maybe we could sell 'em through the grocery store. And it's a fun story because I won't mention their names, but he approached three well-known global manufacturers and said, Hey, would you like to, we'll license this to you? And they all kinda laughed at him and said, no one will ever buy fast food from a grocery store. So thankfully he wasn't discouraged, but, but, uh, we did it ourselves. And so today we have three dedicated frozen food plants and that, uh, side of our business, our CPG business is 30% of our revenue, a bigger percent of our profit, and it's growing by leaps and bounds. We just, uh, doubled the size of our plant and vandalia to keep up and it's really fun that people can enjoy that flavor and taste. That'sILYSE (13:20):Awesome. With all that growth though, there's always some challenges going on, especially in the fast food business. What would you say are some of the, the main challenges that you run into?JAMIE RICHARDSON (13:31):I think there's some challenges that are universal. Um, you know, these days more than ever, everyone's trying to work through this moment in time. It's been a crazy four years as we all know, and I think there's still some kind of trying to understanding what's a new normal look like. Um, we've gone beyond supply shortages that seems to have sorted itself out. Labor shortage today isn't as bad as it was a year ago. Um, so many of us on the restaurant hospitality side of things face the same challenges on the CPG side of things. Uh, food costs and inflation are real and trying to maintain that value for consumers who are shopping is real for us. We have distinctive challenges because it's a, a strengthen and an opportunity and the strength is we're small and family owned. The opportunity is we compete against some of the world's biggest brands and being able to stay relevant means we can't spend as much money. We have to think more creatively and try new things and, and connect that wayILYSE (14:31):On that. Are there any emerging, like channels you're experimenting in or campaigns that you're trying out for the first time?JAMIE RICHARDSON (14:38):I think for us, um, finding new ways to connect with people and manage expectations is something that's so important because we think expectations are gonna continue to look for even faster service, even greater quality and even more accessibility. So our delivery partnerships are great. Our mobile app has continued to grow and we're involved in a major effort right now to revamp and, and relaunch our, our mobile app because we know, um, staying current there is essential to success. So, um, and then when it comes to campaign, we're constantly evolving and modifying and, uh, making the message even more informed and better connected. So with the Crave Continuum as the platform, um, that's something we're leaning into to talk to those different audiences in in ways that matter. We did a really fun local campaign that was what we call brand unified for our restaurants and our, our CPG business where, uh, roller skating, uh, is the place to be, you know, roller skating's back just like vinyl has been. And, uh, so we, we partnered with some, some skating centers and um, you know, fed a lot of people, a ton of sliders, but also had some fun social content that came out of that as well. So I think for us it's always trying new things and, and being open to the learning we get as we go.DAMIAN (15:52):You mentioned roller skating, which is interesting, which brings to mind, you know, other sports. I'm wondering what White Castle's relationship is to sports, uh, and live sports. Well,JAMIE RICHARDSON (16:02):We are a group of people who have a Super Bowl ambitions, but, uh, you know, much smaller budget. So we are so fortunate to have two great sports partnerships. Uh, one is with USA luge and so, uh, white Castle's the official sponsor of their search for, for luge athletes. Um, the athletes in luge are called sliders, so there's a nice fit there and we've been partners for six years now. Yeah, it's really fun. And uh, you know, we cheer on team USA every four years as they go off to the Olympics, but that's something we get to do fun along the way that encourages youth participation and helps them find the future Olympians as they go around the country. Um, and then just recently we announced a really fun partnership with Major League Pickleball and our local Columbus, Ohio team, which used to be called the Columbus Pickleball Club, has changed its name. They are now the Columbus Sliders and we are cheering them onto victory as they go. So, um, but pickleball is on the rise, and so we find that's a fun, affordable way for us to connect. And I'll tell you that the kids in America are discovering pickleball and it's gonna be big. So we try to catch a rising star whenever we can. And both those opportunities have been huge and a lot of fun for us.DAMIAN (17:17):And that's it for the current podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.ILYSE (17:21):The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce.DAMIAN (17:31):And remember, weJAMIE RICHARDSON (17:32):Don't run away from the word nostalgia, but rather than it being evocative of times past, we want it to be in present tense. We want it to be something where that emotional reward is just as present today, even if it takes slightly different form than it did earlier. A big part of that is theDAMIAN (17:48):Great value we provide. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report, our weekly roundup of what's making news in digital media. I'm Damian.ILYSE (18:01):I'm Ilyse.DAMIAN (18:01):And we'll see you next time.

Weinstein shares why data and technology are crucial to Hilton’s customers’ experience, the creative philosophy for the hotel’s recent campaign with Paris Hilton, and marketing against home-sharing companies. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Damian: (00:01)I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse: (00:02)And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. AndDamian: (00:03)Welcome to this edition of the current podcast.Ilyse: (00:10)This week we're delighted to talk with Mark Weinstein, the Chief Marketing Officer at Hilton.Damian: (00:16)Mark joined Hilton more than 13 years ago rising to become the CMO in 2020, where he now leads global marketing for the Hilton portfolio of over 7,300 hotels across 22 brands in 123 countries and territoriesIlyse: (00:32)As travel surged. After all that pent up Wonderlust created during the pandemic, the hotel brand unveiled its biggest marketing push in six years. The campaign focuses on the quality of the travel experience with Hilton Brands. So Mark Hilton, of course, has its own loyalty program, the free Hilton Honors. How many Hilton guests currently take part in this program? What does it offer in terms of perks?Mark: (01:02)We have 165 million Hilton Honor members and growing. We're the fastest growing loyalty program in travel. And what we love about Hilton Honors, it allows us to get to know our guests to personalize the experience for them. And it also connects all 22 brands. 'cause what's interesting about our portfolio is each brand serves a travel need, budget and occasion. And you may transverse the brands for your different needs. And so Hilton Honors is that connective tissue, whether you're an infrequent traveler and Hilton Honors is a way to give you the best value for booking through hilton.com directly. So we get to know who you are, things like free wifi and points towards that free stay, a more elite member who can earn additional benefits like automated upgrades that we're delivering so you have even better stay or even that ability to dream for that once in a lifetime experience with our partners at McLaren, uh, F one Racing or Live Nation. Uh, and which you can of course further accelerate with things like our credit cards along the journey. So there's something for everyone, uh, along the Hilton Honors program. And of course, as you said, it's free to join, so you'd be crazy not to get that additional value.Ilyse: (01:56)Now how would you say like technology such as like your digital platforms and mobile app also play a role basically in enhancing the guest experience in order to foster like that loyalty and that wonderlust?Mark: (02:09)Yeah. The interesting thing about our technology, I would say it, it focuses in two different ways. All in service of that wonderlust. In some ways it's taking the friction outta travel so you can focus on doing what you're there to do, which is explore and find a great stay experience. So some of our innovations around digital key and the ability to choose your room in the app before you even get there, you know exactly what room you're gonna have. The ability to book confirm connecting rooms for parents. There's nothing more stressful than wondering if you're gonna get those rooms together. We actually are able to confirm it at time of booking. The ability to personalize the stay and choose things you want, the ability to message with the front desk, those are all friction removing items of the travel journey. They take away that interaction at the front desk where it's highly transactional.Mark: (02:48)That frees you up to then have a human conversation. Where do the locals like to eat? Where's the best place to get that Instagrammable rooftop bar shot, you know, as the sun's coming down. So that's one aspect of our technology is making the guest experience better, uh, and easier. On the other hand, putting the wonderlust back in. So you look at our social media abilities to connect with customers with the things they want to hear most about, to produce content and serve it up, whether it's on the interim TV with our connected room, digital TVs through the app itself or on our websites. The ability to let you personalize choices on Hilton Honors. What benefits you most wanna earn on that trip, or the ability to serve up what interesting experiences you might wanna use your honors points for. And so that Wonder Lust is enabled by both the simplifying the basics and really making it straightforward so we're always reliable and friendly to our guests. And then it also supercharging that, that sort of wonder lust that makes you wanna explore the planet.Ilyse: (03:37)How does like data then come into play from your loyalty program to tailor your marketing efforts and create those very unique experiences?Mark: (03:46)Data plays a critical role in everything we do for our customers. Whether that is for our less frequent travelers, trying to better get them the right content on initial stay. Like lots of people travel very infrequently and when they do, it's the trip of a lifetime. So we wanna make sure we use contextual clues from the data, where they came from, what they're engaging with to serve up the right hotel, the right products, the right experiences for that trip. Our Hilton honors members, our best customers who we know extremely well, we can be even more personalized. We can serve up the dream destinations they most want to go to. When you're looking at our website, you're seeing the kind of rooms you typically book, you know, 'cause we know you so well giving you add-on abilities. Things that we know you always add onto your trip are even easier at the fingertips.Mark: (04:24)So that, that's one aspect of it. Second aspect of it is product innovation. You know, the insights of our customers are telling us where we need to go next. They help us pick the next destinations. You know, we're opening about a hotel a day, they help us build new brands, places where we know our customers are looking for a great product, but maybe we don't have a category. And it becomes our design target, our muse for designing a new brand where we create partnerships, the products that we put in our hotels, the partners we affiliate with to build out that journey. So it's, it's both myopically used to, to give you a personalized experience in the moment itself, but also helping us innovate and build the pipeline of where we go next with who we go next and how we build out the brands.Damian: (05:00)Let's talk a bit about the actual marketing campaigns that you've launched. I know that last year you launched the biggest marketing push in six years. Um, it's the Hilton for the Stay platform. The tagline is, it matters where you stay. And that was a campaign, uh, created by TBWA Jet Day and that features Paris Hilton for the very first time, who's seen giving travel tips. Could you talk a little bit about that campaign and why you launched this big campaign last year? ComingMark: (05:26)Outta the pandemic, it would be really easy to get into that sea of sameness, trpi that was out there. You had this desire to reconnect and of course that was an important message, but every company in travel was gonna say the same thing, is saying the same thing and has done so for, you know, decades that empty, you can picture it, that empty beach with a nobody on the beach chair and the clear blue ocean. You can't tell if it's a credit card, a hotel company, an airline, a travel agency, or anything in between. So we knew there was kinda the sea of sameness. There was a tendency to fall in that trope of re connectivity coming outta the pandemic. So we used that moment, uh, during the pandemic to both double down on our customer relationships, donate a million rooms to frontline medical responders, do all the things you do in that moment, but really look ahead to what the future would be.Mark: (06:04)And what we realized was we had never had a platform to tell our story consistently. And in a sea of sameness of this kind of eat, pray, love wonderlust of travel and people on goji berries and surfboards, that's not my travel experience most of the time. Why were we glorifying the destination but not the thing we provide in this travel experience? The stay itself. And we thought back to our founder, uh, Conrad Hilton over a hundred years ago said it was our job to fill the earth with the light and warmth, the hospitality. So we had this really unique purpose in the world, very different than everyone else, and yet a sea of sameness marketing, uh, environment. And what we realized was we were going from campaign to campaign, getting sick of it before anybody else even saw it, before it even wore in. We needed a platform, we needed our version of what we're gonna stand for.Mark: (06:45)And so as we looked with TBWA, the answer was there all along. It's the stay. It doesn't matter how you travel, it doesn't matter how you live your life. When you come to our hotel and you cross that transom, it just feels different when it's at Hilton and at the heart of every great trip is a great stay. And so the stay became that, that that glue. We then look for stories you could tell on top of it. Uh, it matters where you stay as our first campaign to tell that story. Bringing other influencers and creators in to help tell their authentic story. And who more authentic than the great-granddaughter of the founder of our company, Paris Hilton, who has lived her life literally in our hotels, you know, born and raised in in many of our hotels, traveled the world. So we try to find a lot of different ways in to tell that story all connected back to these 22 brands, how they're all part of Hilton and how ultimately were for this day,Damian: (07:27)How significant was it? Was the fact that you launched this across many different channels?Mark: (07:32)I mean, fir look, first of all, we wanna be where our customers are. I mean that, that's ultimately drives this conversation. And, and you know, just using linear as an example, you know, your go-to oftentimes as a classically trained marketer is to to be on tv. And of course we need to be there. There's some reach and frequency in the saliency that comes with that. But the reality is increasingly our customers are engaging with brands differently. Uh, and whether that's on social media or their favorite creators, our ability to give up control a bit, which is hard as a brand owner, right? As as a brand leader. And you realize very quickly we actually don't own the brand that customers do. Their perception becomes reality. Their reality becomes the brand. So we better meet them where they are. Podcasting and audio is a huge trend coming particularly accelerated outta the pandemic.Mark: (08:09)Uh, social media obviously has been, you know, a rocket ship. Uh, your ability to even functionally serve up search results. SEO is being generated by your ability to be indexable on, you know, YouTube and, and TikTok and other places. So it's, it's a no brainer to be with the customers are. And and what's amazing to me about marketing this great discipline we all get to do is that the fundamentals are the same, right? We're still telling great stories like we're doing for hundreds of years that is just so authentically human, but how we get to do it is rapidly changing it faster than any time in history. And so that's why we went omnichannel duringDamian: (08:40)The pandemic of, of course people stopped traveling, they had to, and we saw a big surge of travel after that based on that wonderlust, that desire to get out of the house. According to the US Travel Association, total travel spending this year is still going up 4% over last year, year over year. Is that your perception? Is that your understanding travel demand is still very strong?Mark: (09:01)Yeah, look, coming, coming outta the crisis, I mean every single year of the last three years has been stronger than the previous. Uh, the reality is there's so much pent up demand and one or lost. I, I think there were some mechanic things like people had record levels of savings. But more importantly we had this golden age of travel going into the pandemic, you know, record levels of middle class all across the world, getting to experience travel for the first time that pause, but it didn't break during the pandemic. There was a very explainable reason, the pandemic to stop doing that. But the demand was still there. The desire was still there. And then it got accelerated when people realized how fragile freedom is, right? That at the end of the day, at any given time, your bucket list comes to a screeching halt. So why is it a bucket list?Mark: (09:37)Why is it not a tomorrow list? Why is it not a today list? Let's go out and do it. And then you started to see flexibility of working, right? This idea that I had to be on this calendar schedule where my kids had to get to back to school at a certain time or I needed back in the office, that dynamic changed as well. And so you have record amount of demand, you had a very acute moment where we all realized, my goodness, the thing I love to do could go away at any time. And then life became more flexible. It has led to record levels of travel all across the world. And our hotels are certainly seeing record levels of customers engaging with us.Ilyse: (10:07)So Hilton has a diverse portfolio, brands 22 to be precise. How does the marketing strategy then differ across these brands to cater to those like various travel segments?Mark: (10:19)It's a great question. Look, each brand has a design target, a ause that we use to design that and, and s sort an archetype that we're really focusing on. We build out that prototype of what it's gonna look like, feel like what brands are gonna appear in the hotel itself, what's the color palette, the look and feel, the logo, all those things that you'd expect us to do. And each brand has to win its category, right? All of 'em have, you know, great competitors that, that are offering options the same price point. So we gotta be differentiated. What's important for us though is that by Hilton or the name Hilton in the brand, which is in all 22 brands, is not a holding company. We're not a, we're not a sort of CPG company that just happens to own these brands and lets 'em all pure play, compete.Mark: (10:55)They all have a purposeful role in the journey. And so you may be at a Hilton resort, you know, having a great trip in Aruba and then suddenly you're at your kid's soccer game or you know, football match at a Hampton Inn somewhere in the world or you know, that you need to be in and then a Walter for story for your honeymoon. So you're transversing those brands by Hilton has to mean something by Hilton has to also be the connective tissue. And so it's this fun challenging balance of having 22 brands each with their own personality that commands premiums in their category, while also reminding customers that it matters that these are by Hilton and that you'll get the benefits of Hilton Honors and all the things we innovate and drive. Uh, along the journey.Ilyse: (11:30)Hilton recently conducted research into how different generations travel. What were like, the major takeaways from the research, for instance is like one generation travel more than the other.Mark: (11:41)You know, some trends you see are about where you are in your lifecycle, right? Obviously the older you get the the more you typically have more disposable income and time just definitionally. When you're younger, you're often in the early stage of your career, maybe your family's younger. So there, there's those dynamics. But we do look at each generation to see what's pervasive and what's what's there. The first was the focus on wellness. People are looking particularly for restorative sleep. Uh, when you looked at I think the lowest end of the, of the spectrum, you know, 55% of Gen Z were saying that's the primary purpose of their trip. All they up to 70% of, uh, boomers and and Gen X were saying the primary purpose of the trip was restorative sleep, right? So we take that responsibility very, very seriously that you need to be rested and relaxed when you come to our hotel.Mark: (12:20)Second trend we saw was a seamless digital experience, right? This ability to dream shop book, experience the entire, stay digitally and personalize that journey for you. And so as you look at our innovation agenda, whether that's putting your mind at ease when you book that, you've got a confirmed connecting room, whether that's knowing you can message the front desk, you know, how many times, uh, I know for me I'm in the room and I don't really wanna go back to the front desk. I don't really wanna call and bother them, but I could use more towels or I could use, uh, a beverage after the, the bars maybe close for the night to build a message to the front desk and have 'em respond back. That's pretty powerful. So how do we digitally engage with our customers all generations? You know, it may start with younger travelers, but I'm telling you that the boomers are just the same in terms of wanting the ease and access of a seamless digital booking experience and engaging experience.Mark: (13:01)The third is, uh, local experiences. So people go somewhere to do something typically. And so they want our hotels to help 'em connect with the neighborhoods. Where's the offbeat path? Yes, you'll see the big museum or the big, you know, sculpture in town or whatever it may be. But tell me what locals do. Where do they eat? Where do I go around here? And maybe some of that's in the hotel. Maybe we have a great, you know, Michelin star restaurant in the hotel and we can get you a reservation that you can otherwise have. So a third trend we saw was connecting with the local experience and not wanting a cookie cutter trip. Even. You know, you want a reliable hotel. And the last, and I mentioned this earlier, the dynamic of business travel has changed wildly. You know, as I think about my career and a lot of our consumers say the same thing, it was an interruption in your life.Mark: (13:41)It was, you know, I had my life at home and then I go do business travel and that's gonna stop my momentum at home. The flexibility we now all have to be virtual for an extra week. It allows us to extend a business trip into a personal trip. The ability to have your kids join you on the weekend. Suddenly now you can use that momentum of a business trip to be the catalyst for bringing your whole family along. 'cause the kids can miss a day of school or take a zoom class instead of having to be back in class. And so that journey has been blended. And so when we look at the trends across all generations, that ability to make it digitally and seamless for them is really important. The ability to be locally connected, that ability to ultimately blend the work in business, travel, uh, business and and leisure at the very top of it, the whole thing. Make sure that when you leave that hotel, you feel rested and restored. Whether that's mind, body or soul.Damian: (14:22)And in terms of your marketing calendar, your marketing cadence, you talk about all these many different streams you're looking at, how do you think about the rollout of campaigns?Mark: (14:31)A lot of markets have a natural pacing to them. There are, you know, there's golden week in China twice a year, right there, there's things that you lean into because that is a natural catalyst. We, despite all the flexibility I talked about earlier, we still in the US have big summer breaks. That's a big time to send people, you know, on holiday. But also watching customer cues, right? We were able to, a lot of the, the channels we talked about earlier are pool channels, not push channels. So as customers are engaging on video, on demand and they're watching programming about travel destinations or food destinations, let's, let's plug into that moment. Let's activate and trigger. We're watching social media all the time for moments to intercept. You know, we've got examples where there was a home sharing customer whose dad thought they booked a house for four.Mark: (15:08)It was a shed that was big enough for one person. They had two dogs and four kids. And it was crazy. We texted them and said, you know, we message 'em on Twitter and TikTok and got ahold of 'em and said, come to our hotel. Uh, we had one the other day who texted her at home sharing host and said, uh, we're at a toilet paper. Where do I find more? And they said, the supermarket. And we said, well that's crazy. Our hotel has come to our hotel, right? So you find these little human moments along the way. And so it takes the pressure outta marketing to some degree 'cause the customers are telling you when they want to hear about you. And we've got ready to go stories. The last example I would give is cultural tent poles. So we've got a long standing partnership with the Grammys.Mark: (15:43)Uh, we have a long history music. Uh, John Lennon wrote, imagine in the New York Hilton on a piece of stationary, had the bed in for peace at the Hilton in Amsterdam. Elvis did residencies. Freddie Mercury wrote a crazy little thing called Love in the Bathtub at the Hilton Frankert. Yeah. And so we belong in music, right? So Grammys becomes a big tent pole to tell our story. Formula one with McLaren and Lando Norris, uh, on a McLaren F one racing team. The big moment in the Vegas race will tell that story. So there, there are these moments where you can lean into culture, where the stay is really at the heart of what's possible and that just becomes an authentic way to connect with our customers.Damian: (16:14)I wanna ask you about sustainability and eco-conscious travel, which should become increasingly important. Can you talk about how Hilton incorporates those concepts and those initiatives into its marketing efforts to resonate with environmentally conscious travelers? ThisMark: (16:27)Is very top of mind. We have a huge responsibility. We have over a million and you know, almost a million and a half rooms across the world. And the decisions we make can make or break products for distribution. And so one of the things we did on the product side is we moved to bulk amenities. This idea that you're not gonna have those tiny little bottles that get thrown out every stay. We've got refillable bottles that are safe and secure and sealed and everything else, but the real driver was environmental impact, right? We, we are big enough that our ability to use reusable bottles for water, the ability to use refillable bottles in the, in the bath amenities, that has a huge impact on our supply chain. And so first and foremost is that second we have the ability for companies that are keeping track of their impact.Mark: (17:02)Or, you know, even for conscious consumers, we're tracking all the energy uses at our hotels and we're giving recommendations to the hotels how to save energy based on consumer behaviors. We're able to turn down the thermostats when the guests leave the room. We're able to do the things that actually make a difference. On the marketing side, it, it's kind of a funny scenario. And that customers care more than ever, as as they should. They'll tell you in a focus group, they'll pay a premium or they want to hear about they, they really don't. They, they want to have a great trip, but they wanna know underneath that great trip, you're doing the right thing. And so we're not necessarily gonna always put it front and center and say, this is an eco-conscious trip, but we better have the proof points for you that you'll know that the trip you're having that not paying a premium, but paying what you already pay includes Hilton's commitment to doing that.Mark: (17:41)So that's really important. And on the marketing side, look, we have to look at sustainable sourcing of things. We have to look at who our supply chain is with what are we buying and who are we buying it from. We built these rooms, these hotel rooms on golf courses, uh, for, you know, big golf activations and they're fun and they're great for three days. We've donated a couple of those to local schools to use as play facilities, right? So are you thinking through the entire journey and then the tricky part to your question coming back to that is just how much do customers really want to hear that story versus just know intuitively and instinctively that your brand stands for it and it's committed and the dollars they're spending are being reinvested in their communities and being reinvested for the environmental impact.Ilyse: (18:17)What emerging trends or channels do you see as having the most significant impact on Hilton's marketing strategy in 2024?Mark: (18:26)I look back to where we are today versus when I studied marketing, uh, you know, a number of years ago in school, too many years ago in school. And, you know, the channels we're using most today didn't even exist. Literally did not exist. Social media was not even really a thing. Uh, and suddenly here it is our number one channel for a number of ways to connect with customers. And so we will rejoice in the fact that marketing is job is always and will continue to be great storytelling. And that's not going anywhere. That is the heart of what we do. What will change and continue to accelerate for us is how we do that more on social, right? More on streaming and video on demand. You know, as you start to pivot from, I think this year was the first year that consumers officially watch more video not on linear TV than than on linear tv.Mark: (19:04)That trend will continue and so we'll need to meet them where they are on streaming and video on demand and YouTube and other platforms. You'll see us show up in TikTok and Instagram and show up on the platforms where we can tell authentic, credible stories. I think the more fun part for us is giving away the keys to the castle a bit, right? So we're gonna be doing more with creators and letting them tell their authentic story about a Hilton's day. And while you might not always have all the brand controls you have, the authenticity outweighs the impact of losing a little bit of your ability to control for every sentence and every, you know, color that they use in in their work. And then lastly, we'll look for ways to activate, um, at big cultural tent pole moments, showing up in an activational way with experiential marketing to let customers truly experience what our brand stands for in the moments that matter most to them, reminding them that it matters where you stay and that Hilton is for this day.Damian: (19:51)That's it for this edition of the current podcast. We'll be back next week. So stay tuned.Ilyse: (19:56)The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Leyer and Cat fei.Damian: (20:05)And remember, youMark: (20:07)Realize very quickly we actually don't own the brand that customers do. Their perception becomes reality. Their reality becomes the brand. So we better meet them where they are.Damian: (20:15)I'm Damien andIlyse: (20:16)I'm AiseDamian: (20:17)And we'll see you next time.

The chief marketing officer of the free ad-supported television (FAST) platform breaks down the maturation of the free-streaming space, Tubi going for an entire brand refresh, and growing the brand past its “teenage-acne phase.” Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Damian Fowler: (00:01)I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse Liffreing: (00:02)And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. Damian Fowler: (00:03)And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.Ilyse Liffreing: (00:10)This week we sit down to talk with Nicole Parlapiano, the chief marketing officer of Tubi.Damian Fowler: (00:16)Nicole became the CMO in 2022, having honed her marketing experience at a number of high profile companies, including VaynerMedia, WeWork and Tinder. In 2023, she was named one of ad age's leading Women of the Year.Ilyse Liffreing: (00:31)Tubi had a breakout year in 2023, it surpassed 74 million monthly active users. 10 million of those came between February and September when the brand had its viral Super Bowl campaign.Nicole Parlapiano: (00:47)I mean it was a big moment. I think it's one of those lightning in a bottle I think when it really hit for me is when I saw a friend of mine who has kids in college sent me a TikTok and they were imitating the kids what it was like when the Tubi commercial came on. And I thought like, what a privilege and what an amazing impact that people are creating reaction videos because of what we did. And you know, if it's with the college kids on TikTok, then it's gonna go. It really showed how much like impact we had in that moment and for you know, a more of a challenger streaming brand. It was a big moment for the company and for the brand.Damian Fowler: (01:28)It certainly raises the bar right for, for next Super Bowl. For you , do you, are you, are you thinking oh we've gotta build on this and and do something even more?Nicole Parlapiano: (01:37)I literally basked in it for three days and then I was like Ooh, like this is definitely a hard thing to follow. And I think you can't put pressure on things like that. We are just obsessed with our viewers and obsessed with like surprising them. I think that happens in small ways every day on social. We're very accessible to our fans and our viewers. We respond to everybody. So really scaling that mass intimacy, you know, sending our biggest fans Tubi care packages and special things that they like. The bigger campaigns we've done since then are really similarly just looking at the moment we're in, really being considerate about who the audience is, who is the target audience and like how can we break through creatively in that moment on a small scale, on a big scale. Instead of letting the content lead us, we really let the viewer and the audience lead where we go. That takes the pressure off of what, what are we doing? What do we need to do? They tell us what we need to do if we're listeningDamian Fowler: (02:39)So are your marketing campaigns sort of reacting to Yes. What your viewers are watching? Yes. Is that, could you talk a little bit about how you stay like in the moment stay relevant?Nicole Parlapiano: (02:48)Listen, like for things like Super Bowl you have to plan many months ahead, but we actually had a very condensed time. So even on our bigger campaigns we turned things within four months pretty quick. When we do Super Bowl in the future, I think that part of the magic is cutting it really close. I mean culture's just moving so fast at this point that if you make something 10 months out, like is it still gonna hit the right way? Like things are moving too fast. I wouldn't say it's completely reactionary, but I do over-Index on giving my team enough time to pay attention and listen versus follow a marketing calendar. I think if we're following a marketing calendar and we're so focused on the calendar dictating our lives, you're going to miss the things that are going on in culture and then you don't have the bandwidth to move when something happens. That'sDamian Fowler: (03:36)Such invaluable insight.Ilyse Liffreing: (03:38)You know, speaking of trends, especially in the streaming space, Tubi is becoming somewhat of like a poster child for Fast channels or rather free ad supported TV platforms, especially after breaking into Nielsen's platform rankings in March. What do you think is driving the next evolution of growth for Fast?Nicole Parlapiano: (03:56)I think people are starting to get it with Fast. Probably two years ago when Fast there was a little bit of my expectation is that it's like an SVOD think now people are starting to realize that Fast just really plays a different role in your life and that it is more of a place to come when you're not sure what you wanna watch and you're looking to watch based on a mood or an occasion or a feeling. The growth in viewership is coming from just better consumer understanding of the role that fast plays and it's not necessarily like a replacement to SVOD, it's extremely complimentary. The large collection of titles we have really leans into a trend you’re seeing in media where there's just overall fragmentation. There's different pockets of the internet of people that are passionate about completely obscure things. And so us having a huge content library allows them to find those things and find them with depth.Nicole Parlapiano: (04:53)We can just tailor to many taste moods and communities that aren't necessarily reflected in mainstream Hollywood at scale. So not just a couple of titles that cater to that audience. We have 50 to a hundred. The second thing that's happening coming out of like just the golden era of TV and streaming and all this content that just came at everyone, it's a lot and there's a lot going on in the world globally and I think there's a lot of mental stress and there is just a trend that you see of people wanting to go back to watch TV from a different time. The nostalgia viewing is hitting an an important time in society right now. Ultimately over time I think we're gonna see a behavioral shift where people know to come to apps like to be first if they don't know what they wanna watch, we're your everyday constant as you cycle in and out of whatever subscription service you're on based on whatever big title they have.Ilyse Liffreing: (05:49)You noted to adage that we need to get back to a place of building brands. What are some of the ways you are continuing to build and articulate Tubi’s brand identity in 2024?Nicole Parlapiano: (06:02)I mean brands are fluid things. I think as a brand at Tubi, we are probably a teenager with like some acne. Like we're figuring out who we are, we don't know who we are yet, you know, we haven't taken the brand that we've shown the last year and really visually and verbally landed that across our entire product and customer and viewer experience. So we are looking at an entire brand refresh. It'll just more reflect I, I would say the exciting inviting and mischievous side of Tubi just to drive a little bit more consistency there across our surfaces. And then instead of campaigns and you know, the everyday social, I do think a lot about something I'll call brand acts, the behavioral moments that reinforce who we are that aren't in the format of a campaign. So I wanna do more of that next year. And I think the one thing I am really excited about is most of my job is like thinking about Tubi every day, but because we're ad supported, I love the breaks that I get to think about problems for our advertiser partners and how their brand can better show up and come to life within the Tubi platform.Nicole Parlapiano: (07:12)Integrating into different shows we might have or experiences.Damian Fowler: (07:16)I liked your word mischievous because it seems to characterize a lot of the work. Yeah. And speaking of that, you know you launched a new tagline, find Your Rabbit Hole, and that was in tandem with a cleverly associated rabbit AI product. I'm doing air quotes, . Could you walk us through this campaign, you know, and how you thread the needle between brand building and that product technology?Nicole Parlapiano: (07:38)I think with the product team, I mean we are just thick as thieves and we are constantly both thinking about what is a true about the viewer experience on Tubi and B, what else can we do to solve their problems? And so we had already briefed the campaign and then when we were going through an exercise together on how we would use OpenAI technology, the first thing we thought about was like helping people find these specific rabbit holes right now. Like the only algorithmic ways that other streamers are telling you what to watch is based on past behavior, but you don't really have a great way to search for something in a categorical semantic search way. So the campaign was sort of going and then when we landed that this was a problem we were gonna solve, I'm like wow, these beautifully go together because you can actually, through the rabbit AI search, you can find rom-coms with hot lifeguards in two seconds. Or you know, shows about, you know, drug cartels on the pickup. You can dictate that behavior with rabbit ai. So when we were launching, you always kind of run into that, well we need to launch the campaign by this time. And they're like, the feature's gonna be available at this time. And you know, sometimes you're not able to make those two things happen all at once all in the same day, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't do them. So we launched the campaign and then a few weeks later Rabbit AIGA AI came out.Damian Fowler: (09:03)I mean I read recently some data about the amount of time people spend searching shows to watch Ugh a lot. You know, likeNicole Parlapiano: (09:10)It's insane.Ilyse Liffreing: (09:11)I know. Firsthand .Nicole Parlapiano: (09:12)Yeah, right. And how many give upDamian Fowler: (09:14)And you, yeah, so this idea that you can actually hone in on exactly what you want, there's a sort of almost like a feeling. I mean I'm often look for British crime dramas for instance. Yeah. Or a period one like an Agatha Christie. Yeah. But it's very hard to do that in, you know, with a lot of search engines they don't always deliver those results. Nicole Parlapiano: (09:31)No. And the categories are like you like reality tv. I think I can speak for all reality TV viewers. We are not one and the same. Like we are different cult fandoms and we like different things and I don't think anyone's really tapped into, you're just, we're kind of like blanket lump, summing all of these genres. And I think the data that we're getting from the search queries is very interesting because it uncovers some of these sub genres that we maybe wouldn't have thought to classify.Damian Fowler: (09:57)Speaking of innovation is anything that's really caught your eye in the present moment.Nicole Parlapiano: (10:03)So I can say one that's caught my wallet, which is all the social shopping products and um, I am currently waiting for my era style Josh Allen t-shirt to come from TikTok shop because they must have known that I'm a Buffalo Bes fan and a Taylor fan and they knew not to put Travis Kelce in front of me. They knew to put Josh Allen in front of me and I clicked to buy so fast. It was scary. Lo-fi creative is always on my mind and I don't mean just UGC creative, I think what you see with the younger generation in Gen Z, their creative tastes are so wildly different. I don't know if you guys follow the drumstick account on TikTok like the ice cream cone, butIlyse Liffreing: (10:46)No, but I want to nowNicole Parlapiano: (10:48)You have to. Whoever's running this account is amazing. It's totally that generation's creative style. They've integrated the product but in a very funny way. So I watch that and I'm paying very close attention to where that's going because not in the near term but in the long term traditional ads as we know them will become less relevant and less prominent. They'll always play a role in things like Super Bowl, but I think for the younger generation they don't really wanna interact in that way. Thinking about when we transition that lo-fi creative to other mediums and have it work in a way is is something I think I spend a lot of time onIlyse Liffreing: (11:29)Now, you've publicly mentioned your passion for coaching and developing young talent. What advice do you have for marketers, especially maybe young marketers looking for that level up?Nicole Parlapiano: (11:41)Well this could be a whole podcast. I was writing like so many things. I think be patient is one. I mean this industry is hard. It's not one that I started in, it's one that that I had a hard time breaking into. Whether you're trying to get a job at an agency and you don't have agency experience, you might have media agency experience, but none of the creative agencies want you 'cause you're not creative enough. Then when you're on the agency side, getting someone on the client side to hire you, there's so many different jumps. It's important to stay patient, it's important to stay hungry, it's important to stay humble. The industry is always moving and things might not work out one place. You know, you have to just keep it moving. So many people are not willing to take a step back to take a step forward and they stay stuck. Be very meticulous about what you're building for in your career and if you wanna take a step forward, you need to be prepared to take a step back sometimes, especially early in your career and say you're at an agency and you've been there for five years and you feel stuck, well guess what? You're not gonna get the same title on the client side. You're gonna have to take a step back to take a step forward, but you have to be willing to do that. Otherwise you're just gonna stay pretty stagnant.Ilyse Liffreing: (12:49)That's good advice. Yeah. Is there a marketer that you turn to for inspiration?Nicole Parlapiano: (12:55)I'm obsessed with Liquid Death and here's why. And I know everyone is, but here's why I'm obsessed with them. They came into a category much like us, where there's like the established players, the rules are there, you need to have X, Y, and Z celebrity endorsements. They came into an industry and they just completely did it their way and they built a cult following from everything that they do to like how they showed up at Super Bowl two years ago. No celebrities, just, just totally a funny, enjoyable ad to in social. When people complain about them the way they gracefully and elegantly address it and respond, I mean everything they do feels endemic to that brand. Feels right and they've had tremendous growth. So I, I haven't had a moment where I've seen something come from them and it didn't feel like right, but like so different and so interesting. They're one I watch a lot.Damian Fowler: (13:48)Yeah, they're amazing. We did a podcast with one of their lead marketers early on and we were laughing out loud at some of the things that they were doing and talk about mischievousIlyse Liffreing: (13:57)And viral.Damian Fowler: (13:58)I just wanted to say, you mentioned something about funny and funny ads and like we're seeing a lot a return of these kind of mischievous or funny ads. Is that your experience, your observation that we're gonna get back to that a little bit more.Nicole Parlapiano: (14:09)I mean, don't you think we should like isn't our job as advertisers to make people like, you know, yes, you can make people cry if that's the thing, but like make people feel something like, I don't know, our ads that we have out now, they're just fun and they're just funny and they're enjoyable to watch. You know, when we're reviewing creative and you're thinking, God, it's only five seconds in, it should feel quick, it should be entertaining. Our job ultimately at the end of the day is to entertain and yes, land a message. But you can't land a message if you're not entertaining. Just not taking ourselves too seriously in these very heavy and in serious times is I think what people need and just being sensitive to that.Damian Fowler: (14:54)And that's it for this edition of the current podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tunedIlyse Liffreing: (14:59)And if you love this podcast, be sure to subscribe and leave a review while you're at it. Check out our other show, the current report, our weekly roundup of what's happening in the world of digital media. The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce.Damian Fowler: (15:19)And remember,Nicole Parlapiano: (15:20)Be very meticulous about what you're building for in your career and if you wanna take a step forward, you need to be prepared to take a step back sometimes, especially early in your career.Damian Fowler: (15:29)I'm DamianIlyse Liffreing: (15:30)And I'm IlyseDamian Fowler: (15:31)And we'll see you next time.

Activision Blizzard's Jonathan Stringfield on how advertisers can attach themselves to gamers' loyalty to specific franchises and how to find community in gaming.  Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.DAMIAN (00:01):I'm Damian Fowler.ILYSE (00:02):And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. DAMIAN (00:04):And welcome to this edition of The Current podcast.ILYSE (00:10):This week we're delighted to talk with Jonathan Stringfield, VP of Global Business Research and Marketing at Activision Blizzard.DAMIAN (00:17):Activision Blizzard made headlines in October. Microsoft closed its $69 billion deal with the gaming company, the home of legendary games like Candy Crush, Call of Duty and World of Warcraft. Activision says it's ready for the next chapter as part of the Microsoft family,ILYSE (00:34):As well as being a VP at the company. Jonathan is also the author of Get In the Game, an Essential Guide for Marketers and Execs who want to integrate their brands with Modern Games and eSports published in 2022 by Wiley.JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (00:53):Sure. Well, so first of all, thanks for having me. I'm super excited to, uh, to be here today. Um, and, and again, I think the book is realistically a reflection of where we are in the greater marketing agency as it pertains to gaming, that I think there's been a lot of opportunities that have existed over the years. Um, certainly the marketplace has matured in recent years, but overall the level of investment in gaming is considerably lower relative to I think the amount that the fans are investing in it, the extent to which that this is consuming a greater amount of their time. And that on the whole, there's a lot of questions from marketers in terms of what's the right way to integrate and realistically no good resources in terms of how do we start to get folks to understand what is ostensibly not just a a form of entertainment. It's a new way in which people are increasingly interacting with media more generally. So the book was in some ways kind of a starter, what I was hoping to be a bit of a foundational educational piece to really kind of advance this conversation forward in the broader marketing industry. Yeah,DAMIAN (01:51):There's definitely intense interest and I've noticed even in the last 12 months it's picked up incredibly. Can you give us a sense of the scale now of gaming worldwide to sort of establish that, that context? Yeah,JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (02:05):For sure. I mean, you know, I think the latest estimates are the total gaming population will be about three and a half billion by next year. So somewhere between a third and a half of the population on the planet plays games, right. Substantial. Right. So, you know, I, I think that alone is, you know, kind of one of these light bulb moments for folks that, you know, when we think about what it means to play a video game more generally, again, you kind of get that classic view of like someone with a controller or maybe at a PC or what have you. But realistically, one of the biggest segments of gaming fans out there is, is mobile. Right? And since everyone has, or virtually everyone has a mobile device globally that can handle games like Candy Crush, what we found is that the surface area for people that enjoy games is just that much bigger. So, you know, when you look at the stats and see that, you know, conceivably the revenue that's attributed to gaming dwarfs things like film, movies, music, or what have you, it's because of the scale of the industry first and foremost in terms of how many fans have proliferated certainly in the last decade or so.DAMIAN (03:06):Yeah. What's interesting is people have certain preconceptions about gamers and gamers have changed over the years. I remember when I was coming about, I had an Atari 800 and I used to play Frogger. I don't really consider myself a gamer anymore, but could you give us a little insight in terms of who are gamers?JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (03:25):Yeah, so even the term gamer is kind of interesting in so far that it already kind of attributes a label that then kind of sparks preconceptions that are mine, right? So, you know, if we take a step back, we don't talk about, you know, folks that are watching movies as cinephiles per se, right? Or folks that are really into music with, with very specific terms. So in that world, even just thinking about gamers themselves, that kind of just entails someone who has or really kind of pulls some degree of identity from it, which is certainly the case. There are folks that like readily identify as a gamer and are, you know, very into it. And one of these, you know, spend multiple, multiple hours and lots of investment in the ecosystem and so on and so forth. But then there's just as many, actually many more folks who don't necessarily consider themselves a gamer, but they definitely play video games, right?JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (04:11):And a lot of it is on mobile phones, but then some of these same folks do on consoles and PC and what have you. And one of the biggest trends we'll continue to see in the gaming industry broadly is that we're really looking at a world where we're trying to make sure that the experiences that we provide can be accessed on virtually any device. So I think by that metric, what we'll find is that the, the, the definition is gonna continue to expand. So going back to your question, like who is a gamer? I mean, it, again, it's it's a little bit hokey and we say it a lot, but it is kind of everyone to a certain degree. And it's just, it is the different ways that folks are entering what is an ecosystem, not just an individual channel that kind of differentiates them.DAMIAN (04:50):Yeah. So it's not a sort of niche thing and the, the definition of gamer has here, the two maybe been a sort of niche thing, but what you're saying is it's definitely not that.JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (04:59):And, and, and I think there's no better example than what's been happening in recent years, right? So that even that concept of a gamer kind of implies that this is a different group of folks. This is an abnormal group of people that is doing something other folks do, don't or don't do. And again, that's just not the case. Right? And again, look at things like the extent to which you see gaming IP in major movies, television shows. I think there's some, last I counted, 40 or 50 individual projects for TV or movie being developed from game IP right now.ILYSE (05:29):Wow, that's a lot. .JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (05:30):It's a lot. And, and the, the other thing, and, and again, it's good now. So like there, there is this world where, you know, if you think about, you know, how games have been portrayed in movies like maybe in the early nineties, like wasn't that great, right? Mm-hmm. and like kind of left a bad taste in people's mouth, not just folks that weren't fans of the games, but candidly even the fans of the game. And that's really changed in recent years. And I think, again, we could talk a lot about why that happened and partially it's, you know, Hollywood, I think taking the stories in these games more seriously, but then also understanding that there's a big established fandom here. And if they want to bring this experience to a different screen, they need to resonate with that. So what that means in general is that it's just becoming not something that's an offset of culture. It's popular culture. And I think what we'll see in coming years is that already it's the case with even generations as young. And I'm definitely throwing up air quotes 'cause I'm in this generation as millennials, they spend most of their time gaming relative to other forms of media. And I don't think the marketing world has caught up with that fact.ILYSE (06:28):Do you happen to have a favorite gaming movie?JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (06:30):My favorite gaming movie? Oh, I mean, you know, honestly, at this point I do have a lot of heart for the old ones from the nineties just because, you know, that's what I grew up with was were those, and, and for me it was just so cool to kind of see them even be represented on screen like that. So like the original Super Mario Brothers movie and Street Fighter and things like that, like all really cool projects. I think the one that really kind of spoke to me personally, um, and again, it feels like this is gonna be like a bit of a pitch for the company, and I promise you it isn't is actually the Warcraft movie UhhuhILYSE (07:01):.JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (07:01):Because at that point, by the time that movie came out, I'd been playing Warcraft for a decade at least. And again, I'm not alone that that's a very common behavior you've seen. So again, think about Super Mario Brothers, any of these other movies, you know, folks are coming to this with the intention and with the knowledge that they've been engrossed in those worlds for 10 years, 20 years, some times, 30 years, they're gonna have expectations in terms of how that's portrayed in that media. Yeah.ILYSE (07:25):And you know, you mentioned it's very much like a family kind of affair. Um, one of the most interesting insights we saw on your site is that actually like one in five gamers are actually made up of women with children. So would you say mom's got game ?JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (07:40):Mom definitely has game and, and parents have game and, and you know, it it's, it, there's, I think again, with that whole concept of how gaming is increasingly encroaching upon modern culture is that you now have folks that grew up gaming, and again, I'm, I'm definitely in this vanguard who have basically been playing video games their entire life, have kept up with the hobby throughout, and now we have homes and mortgages and kids and a bad hip and things like that. Like we are the principal shoppers in the household, and then we share that with our children, right? Like, and again, it's like anything else you think about how like, sports team, fandom, proliferates, that doesn't happen in abstract. Like kids don't come outta the womb being, you know, rooting for the Cubs or something like that. It's because of a shared connection with their, with their family. Same thing here. So both of my kids, they are big time gaming fans. And again, probably a lot of my influence on that, but even now I have one that's off to college and we can still hang out, right? Because we can hang out in virtual worlds. And again, I think there's something powerful about that.ILYSE (08:37):Activision has some of the world's most iconic, most played games, candy Crush, call of Duty, world of Warcraft. I know myself, I'm a big Candy Crush player. I play it every day on the subway. , can you give us a sense of how and why these games prove so compelling?JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (08:54):I mean, I I, I think there, there's a couple things we could look at, right? So on the one hand, almost all of the, like the games you just mentioned have been around for decades, right? So just as it stands now they're popular because there's been something about them that has kind of hooked someone into that. And again, whether it's like really novel and interesting mechanics, like Candy Crush, whether it's something like social connectivity from a game like World of Warcraft, whether they're just really interested in the story of the world, like something like Diablo, there's been something within those games that speaks to folks, right? And it speaks to 'em in such a way that, you know, again, when you think about media in general that we get engrossed in, that we come fans in, it's something that we develop a lot of affinity for.JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (09:34):And what's different, I think for something like a video game is that, you know, you're not just watching a protagonist in many cases, you are the protagonist. You are I impacting and have agency within that world. So the extent to which that you can form connectivity with that media, it's gonna be so much greater. And then again, you layer on other fans that are participating with it, your connection with them. And you know, you'll hear their stories about people that've been playing World of War crap that made lifelong friends, they met their wife, they got married through the game, they got married in the game. Even , like that's, you know, kind of speaks to how powerful this can be for folks that this is where they find common ground to talk with others about their passions. WouldDAMIAN (10:08):That getting married in a game, uh, would that constitute a premium gaming experience?JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (10:14):? I would certainly think they think so. Right? And, and you know, and again, there, there's something to be said about like, you know, it, it's one of these things where folks will literally get married in the real world and then have a ceremony in the game, and like they buy each other rings or exchange items or whatnot. And, and you know, again, I think it's easy to kind of sit back and be like, wow, that's kind of weird. Like, but if that is the basis of your relationship, if you met your partner and participated and had adventures and shared stories with them for 10 years, 15 years, then yeah, it's meaningful. And, and, and again, I think these are the types of connections that folks are not quite in tuned with yet. But it speaks to again, how much this type of media tends to affect its fandomDAMIAN (10:57):From, from a marketing point of view, the what does it mean to have a premium access to premium gaming experiences? And what kind of research do you do around this to define that concept?JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (11:09):I mean, I think the, first of all, I think we can take the step back that like premium is by far the most abused word in all of advertising, right? Like straight up, right? And again, I, I think that it's hard to find like hard and fast rules in terms of what does or does not constitute it. But in my mind, what I think will, will always tend to be the case is like, you'll see that on the one hand it's these games that have large followings and they have large followings for different reasons. Again, whether it's engagement, the mechanics, the story, social connections, or what have you. And realistically, one of the parts that I find most satisfying about my job is that, you know, these are household names, right? Like even if you don't really play video games, you have heard of Call of Duty, you have heard of Warcraft, you have heard of Candy Crush.JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (11:48):So there is definitely a qualitative and quantitative difference for games of that type relative to, to others where there might be experience. And again, that isn't to say that there's, you know, a big differentiation or that like folks shouldn't explore all kinds of places within the, in the gaming environment. But I think it is important to understand that, particularly in these premium experiences, one, a lot of love and care goes in on the development side. And then two, the fans have a lot of love and care for those environments as well. So what we've found in terms of research that we've done, both as it pertains to how our, um, you know, our players think about these experiences or what have you, is that they realistically see that brands when integrated into these titles that are kind of like the more household name premium games, they start to associate the same type of feelings that they have for the game to the brand, which is again, almost entirely the point, right? Like they're try like the, the, the high bar I think for brands is to kind of be able to participate in some of that equity and have it shine on their brand. And we try to facilitate that in a way that's both efficacious for brands, but then again also works well with the expectations of our fans in the game environment.ILYSE (12:56):How do you make it possible for brands to actually engage with like, active users of the game? I know there's so much, so many possibilities these days compared to like even a decade ago mm-hmm. .JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (13:07):See? And yet I think, so you, you hit on an important PO point that there have been opportunities in games almost since games existed. There was some form of advertising. The issue was that back in the day, it was tough and it wasn't super flexible and it, it just wasn't how marketers liked to buy things, right? It was basically you had to be hard coded into the game experience and you lived there kind of in perpetuity. And that's not really how media buyers think. So the big shift that's happened over say, we'll say the last 10 years, but I think we, we could quibble over like, you know, what the exact dates are is that internet connectivity on these games, you know, programmatic, um, technology things have made it a lot more turnkey. So as it stands now in the ecosystem, there's kind of two polarities in terms of opportunities, again, speaking at a very, very high level.JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (13:52):On the one hand you have integrated marketing. So this, these are the things that you see that are like the concerts, these in-depth integrations, you know, you know, Humvees and games like Call of Duty, things of that nature that really kind of speak to customized builds within the game environment. On the other hand, you have a lot of programmatic media opportunities that even occur in games like Candy Crush or what have you that are video spots and what have you, that we tie into the game environment again, in a way that kind of fits with the mechanics. And that's kind of more or less the, the high level answer to your question is that we really take a lot of time to understand, one, the design intent of our developers. And again, we are fundamentally a game company. So we work hand in hand with our developers to figure out where are the opportune places where brands can integrate, not just in a way that's not obtrusive with our players, but optimally in a way that can enhance the play experience. And whether that's providing them a reward or integrating a brand in a way that actually like increases the realism or the immersion of the actual, you know, game environment. That's kinda the bar we try to set.ILYSE (14:51):That's awesome. Uh, could you give us a few like, examples of brands that you guys have worked with in that kind of environment and way?JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (14:58):I mean, I think, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll stop short of calling out any specific brand aside, but we'll note that I think one of the big misconceptions about gaming is that has to be like endemic brands. That is definitely not the case, right? So we see everything from C P G to restaurants to anything in between. And actually we did do a case study with, um, Prada recently where they were put their, one of their fragrances product candy within Candy Crush, right? Which, you know, kind of makes sense that there's already like some degree of continuity between the two. And interestingly for Product Candy, it is a fragrance that has existed for a while. So it's not a new extension. It had been out on market, but then they wanted to kind of reinvigorate it, they integrated a candy crush. We did like an interactive game for players to like, you look and search for the fragrance on there, and then it linked to their site where they could pull out a sample and they went through all their samples almost instantly, right? So it's something that like, because it resonated that well with the game, it's something that, you know, the fans were really attracted to and I think really drove great results for Product Handy in that case.DAMIAN (15:58):I wanted to ask you, you know, where I wanted to ask you, what does your research tell you about where people are playing these games? I know there's a split between mobile and console gaming.JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (16:07):Yeah, so I mean, what you'll find is that, you know, again, I think when we were talking earlier about how the overall gaming market has expanded, you know, the vast majority of game activity happens on mobile. And again, as a game publisher, we paid attention to that. So it's not only that we have, you know, titles like Candy Crush, which have ostensibly been mobile since mobile gaming was, was a possibility. We're also bringing a lot of our other franchises to mobile environments. So Call of Duty mobile is a great example. Diablo Immortal. We really wanna take all these franchises that were historically console specific and bring them to mobile environments. Now, what's gonna be I think really interesting is that gaming is increasingly going to be a hobby that is divorced from gaming devices. And by that what I mean is through cloud technologies, through increasing speeds on mobile, what we'll find is that virtually anywhere that there's a screen that's smart, there's probably gonna be an opportunity to play a game. And that's where I think we'll continue to see kind of the, the overall rise of the ecosystem. And so far that the easier it is for folks to access these experiences, the more opportunities it gets to build that audience. So I think what you'll find is that, you know, some of the biggest franchises won't just be relegated consular pc, they'll continue to go more mobile, but then eventually they're just gonna go to any screen that has an internet connection. I think that'll be a really interesting shift for the industry. Yeah,DAMIAN (17:24):I see. Yeah.ILYSE (17:26):Cool. You know, Activision asserts that gaming drives community authenticity and engagement. How would you say that's possible and why does it matter to potential advertisers?JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (17:37):I mean, it really gets back to that point of fandom. It's, you know, something that we, we've been talking a lot about that, you know, fans, you know, fandoms are created around shared love of a form of media, and again, be a sports team could be anything, right? But in this case, it is indeed some of these game titles. And on the one hand you have a group of folks that are substantively interested in a given form of media in this, in this case a game. Many of them with social features in them, right? So like World of Warcraft, call of Duty, these are all social games. You speak with your teammates, right? Like people are getting married and what have you through these games, but even those that don't actually have social con connectivity built in Candy Crush is a great example. There's still a huge fandom of Candy Crush fans that go to like web forums to talk about strategies in Candy Crush.JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (18:22):So they will go and find their community no matter what. And again, that I think speaks to the power of it. So that's, you know, the, the opportunity for advertisers is that, you know, fandoms are powerful, right? When someone has that degree of connectivity to media, when it's effective on that level, right, with an a, it can be effective with an e for advertisers. And I think the concern is that because of the intense love that, you know, game players have for games, that can actually be a little scary for advertisers. They believe if they integrate in a way that, you know, well, one, they believe they're not welcome in general, but then two, if they don't integrate in a very specific way, that's gonna kind of go sideways on them. And again, I think there is something to be said that there are ways that you can integrate in gaming that are not gonna be super fan forward and therefore problematic. But if you find a way to integrate that is fan forward that does kind of fit with the needs and expectations of the fans, it can be super effective for advertisers for that reason of the level of affinity that the game players have for the experience.DAMIAN (19:24):It seems like gaming is driving a, a, a big shift in entertainment habits and, and is is not siloed anymore as just a gaming thing over here, you know, a a movie experience over here. It's, it's kind of, uh, crossing, I don't know what's the word? Uh,JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (19:39):Transmedia might be one of the words, right? Yeah. Like where it's multiple stories talked about through multiple forms of media. Yeah.DAMIAN (19:45):And, and you know, on that point, how, what does this mean for, for marketers? Do they understand how entertainment habits are actually changing? Are they, are they there yet? Is there, is there more that they need to know?JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (19:57):I mean, I, I think there's still learning to be done. And, you know, when I go out and I speak about gaming, my, the general point that I want advertisers to walk away with is that even if you aren't bought into the idea of gaming, per se, what you can be bought into is the fact that media in general is becoming more interactive. And gaming is obviously at the forefront of interactive media. And I think advertisers are very good at and understand even down to the psychology of how people think about movies or watch shows, or even Peru's social media less so I think at this time about things like interactivity, it's a different set of psychologies, right? It is a different way in which someone's mind is literally tuned into the media. And I think we're still kinda at the early stages of that.JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (20:43):And, and you know, I think there I am, I'm encouraged that it has become a broader conversation. I think, you know, when things like the metaverse and whatnot were very hot, that was basically a reflection of that, right? Because everything that the metaverse was that we were talking about, you know, about a year ago and that are no longer really talking about it was basically just gave me experiences, but it was the right idea, right? That oh wow, there's all these people, they're in these online interactive spaces. How should I think about that? And again, maybe wrong focus at that point, but it was the right question.DAMIAN (21:13):Hmm. And one of the things I you are very interested in is, is measuring attention and attention metrics. How does that work in the context of gaming and why is it so significant? Have we caught up yet? Have marketers caught up with the way we should be looking at how people are paying attention in these new forms of media?JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (21:30):I mean, you know, it is certainly the case that you will be hard pressed to find a single marketer out there that is happy with their measurement period. And, and again, to be clear, that's not a problem necessarily with the measurement companies. That's just kind of the nature of how measurement works with advertising, not the least of which. And again, I think apropos adver or to attention specifically is that the focus and conversation around attention in my mind just really signals that we are dissatisfied with the metrics that we have today. Fundamentally, most of the media that we're buying on is through the same metrics and lenses that we use circa 1970, right? It's reach and frequency, which is great, it has its purposes. Obviously advertising is a scale game. We need to make sure that we have enough people that see a message, but we're less sure about whether it mattered to them or whether they saw it.JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (22:19):Because again, recall that, you know, reach is an opportunity to see not whether someone saw it. So on the one hand, I think attention is becoming a broader conversation, one because I think we, there is more focus on not just the breadth, but the depth of these potential interactions and how folks are consuming media. But then also because in worlds where more media's consumed interactively reach and frequency just might not cut it. Now again, it's an interesting conversation, but much like the general dissatisfaction around measurement more generally, we're pretty far away from a standardized definition. I think it's a, it's an active and interesting conversation that's going on, but in my mind, regardless, almost regardless of what definition we'd land on, is something that I think needs to happen because otherwise we're still gonna be stuck in the same reach frequency mode of buying that we kind of used to buy linear TV several decades ago.DAMIAN (23:11):I mean, one of the challenges, uh, I guess one of the needs for this idea of attention metrics is to be able to measure results in different channels. And it's not apples to oranges, it's apple want. The, the need is to kind of a me have an apples to apples measurement, right? And that doesn't necessarily exist yet. And I'm wondering about, you know, when it comes to gaming future integrations across different channels, how do you see that? I mean, playing out,JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (23:38):So gaming is one of the big challenges that I think we have as a, as certainly as a gaming publisher, but then also the broader marketing world has about thinking about gaming in general is that, you know, if we think about social, right, you're looking at degrees of apps and ev all these apps are different, but fundamentally, if you're focusing on one, like it's an app, and, and again, that's not to say that's not very complicated what have you, but like it's a technology, gaming is an ecosystem, right? So even if you were to go and have someone sit in this chair and ask them, oh, are are you doing anything in gaming? They'll say, oh yeah, yeah, I am. And if you ask them what are they doing, you're gonna get a lot of different answers, right? Like, maybe it's Twitch, maybe it's eSports, maybe it's mobile games, maybe it's some spots and dots and you know, console titles or what have you.JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (24:22):Huge degree of diversity. So on the one hand, when we've been thinking about measurement, we want it to be applicable to every experience that an advertiser can have in our ecosystem. And the more that we can build our platform to essentially get some degree of equivalence, whether it's across any number of touchpoint within the ecosystem, the better, broader industry, cross platform measurement is a conversation that's been going on as long as I've been doing ad measurement. That's a long time. Um, and, and again, I think we're a pretty far ways away if we're being honest with ourselves. Again, even if we take gaming to a side and don't even think about that just in general media, we're pretty far ways away. But I am encouraged by things like attention, because what we can agree on is things like reach and frequency, right? Like we might have some disagreement about when, where, and how and how do we wanna like measure things like fraud and delivery and what have you. But we all kind of know what it means and we can all kind of compare it across them. What attention needs to do is get to that point. And when it gets to that point, then it becomes a currency, then it becomes useful. And then I think it becomes super meaningful that not only are we understanding the scale of the potential execution, but again also how much it affected us, which in my mind is super important for interactive media like gaming.ILYSE (25:32):Now you mentioned you foresee basically anything with a screen being an area or an opportunity for someone to game. And it's true that like gaming is making its way into like a bunch of different channels. Even like Netflix now has games, for instance. It's crazy. Um, how do you see like other like, forms of new technology from AI to Metaverse technologies further expand the potential like real estate for gaming and opportunities to reach gamers?JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (26:01):So if we, if we tick through the buzzwords real quick, right? So like on on, on the one hand, ai, super popular conversation going on, AI's been used in gaming for years, right? So like, and, and again, like we could get a little bit wonky and just talk about, eh, it's for the most part just machine learning and stats and things we've been doing for a while. But, you know, again, even things like procedural generation, what have you, that's been part and parcel to gaming for a long time. So on the one hand, you know, there's something to be said about game developers have experienced with that, but we, you know, continue to lean into these new worlds because again, it creates a lot of power in terms of how we can make experiences on a more scaled basis. As a general note, when I, again, one of these kind of truisms that I give folks is that when they want to think about or really see what kind of the future of the media landscape is, you do wanna look to gaming for these types of things, right?JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (26:48):So again, ai, it's kind of been a part of gaming for quite some time. Vr, same deal, right? Like, so for the most part, most of the more popular experiences we have in VR are generally games. But then on the other hand, if you look at the percentage of people on platforms like steam, which is a very popular, um, platform for PC gaming, the install base of VR headsets is about 2%. It usually waffles between one or 2%. So again, you would kind of already know that the market for VR hasn't really developed even then just looking at how gamers are oriented towards it. And metaverse, you know, again, there, it was very much a double-edged blood blade type of conversation that on the one hand I was really excited that people were starting to think about online immersive, interactive environments. On the other hand, they were just talking about gaming, but calling it something else, right?JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (27:40):And I think there has been a little bit of correction, like yes, there are grander plans or grand plans in terms of building something more generalized like a metaverse, but realistically all of our best practice for it and all the techno technology platforms that exist right now are gaming. So on the one hand, like there's a lot to be said about all these types of things with within the gaming ecosystem, but on the other, you know, a a again, I think it's important for marketers to understand not just because of the opportunity within gaming today, because there are many, but also it's a really good lens to kind of judge some of these new emerging trends through in terms of how it's worked in the gaming ecosystem. Mm-hmm. ,ILYSE (28:17):You know, one area of gaming that is continuing to grow I feel like is that of like e-commerce and shopping through games. Um, you can buy, you know, skins, you can buy elements to build out your characters these days. Just curious about, I guess your outlook on that and how you see growth in that when it comes to e-commerce.JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (28:39):Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, the, the, on the one hand there's something to be said that in general when you look at things like buying skins, even advertisements in games, things of that nature, this is all coming from the fact that the games industry wants to move with the economy of the world in such a way that like we want everyone to play our games and ultimately we just wanna transact with folks in a way that makes sense for them, right? So in some games, some experiences, no one wants to pay anything and maybe they're happy to watch an ad and that's okay. And others they wanna pay 60 or $70 upfront and that's okay too. And then in a third maybe they're buying certain, you know, skins and what have you. And again, that's fine. Like what all of these potential activations allow us to do is just again, be flexible in terms of how we can transact with customers to again, make sure that we're reaching virtually everyone.JONATHAN STRINGFIELD (29:23):So on the one hand, I think that's gonna continue to be important not just for the game industry, but also the flexibility that we gain give to game developers. For brands specifically, one, obviously that provides a lot of opportunities because things like advertisements and integration with skins and integrated marketing like we talked about before, like that can all be weaved into there. And then even certain environments being set up as commerce platforms in and of themselves. Like if it's something that makes sense for the game environment, like yeah, right? Like, you know, imagine, again, I'm gonna kind of make this up, but 10 years ago you didn't buy anything online, right? But then it kind of became something that was novel and then it became something that you did a little bit more. And now I buy near everything online, right? Like I like, it's almost weird when I go to a store. I think we could start to see that in gaming, right? The more that we start to use these technologies and become normalized in our everyday practice, then that is something that we'll use for a wider variety of use cases from socialization, whether it be the Metaverse to shopping.DAMIAN (30:24):And that's it for this edition of the current podcast. We'll be back next week. So stay tuned.ILYSE (30:30):The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Berkley and Cat Festy.DAMIAN (30:38):And remember, I'm Damien.ILYSE (30:47):And I'm Elise.DAMIAN (30:48):And we'll see you next time. AndILYSE (30:50):If you love this podcast, be sure to subscribe and leave a review. While you're at it, check out our other show, the current report, our weekly roundup of what's happening in the world of digital media.

State Farm’s Head of Marketing, Alyson Griffin, breaks down making the company’s iconic jingle a bigger deal next year and diving more into retail media. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio. Damian Fowler: (00:01)I'm Damien Fowler. AndIlyse Liffreing: (00:02)I'm EIS Lfr. AndDamian Fowler: (00:03)Welcome to this edition of the current podcast.Ilyse Liffreing: (00:10)This week we're delighted to talk with Allison Griffin, the head of marketing for State Farm.Damian Fowler: (00:15)State Farm Insurance Group has been around for more than a hundred years, but thanks to its high profile marketing campaigns, it remains a household name in the us. Over the years, companies had many entertaining creative campaigns, and the latest of course features the affable character of Jake from State Farm, who was present at a certain NFL game that made headlines in 2023. AndIlyse Liffreing: (00:36)We'll get to that with more than 25 years of experience leading teams at top Tech brands. Allison became head of marketing for the Iconic brand in May, 2021. She has a motto which goes like this, always curious, always learning, always happy to share my insights.Alyson Griffin: (00:59)State Farm is a 100 year old brand. You know, we've gotta try to figure out how to remain relevant, not only to our current big tried and true customer base of all. I'm pointing at myself, I know we're on a podcast, the Gen Xers of the world and older, but also that next generation. And one of the ways we do that is through life stages. And of course, every marketer knows you have to be relevant to the target that you're going after. Look, people don't think about insurance at all, ever. Maybe , if I could say, with a big smile on my face. So we've gotta think about, you know, your first apartment or your first car, or having a baby or buying a home, or those life stages matter because they matter to the person that they're happening to. They're big events. And for us, dissecting who the target is, what stage they're in, and how, you know, what do they care about? That has started to shape our media strategy. It started to shape how we think about capturing current demand, generating future demand, and retention and loyalty for our customer base.Ilyse Liffreing: (02:05)Now there's a lot of strategy, obviously behind your marketing campaigns. For instance, when you're selling auto or life insurance, there's a product for sale. But the genius of your campaigns is that you don't really talk about the product like it's there. Obviously you're selling it, but it's not, you know, in your face. This is auto life insurance. Um, what is the concept you are marketing exactly, would you say? And how does that vary, I guess, based on the demographic?Alyson Griffin: (02:33)Yeah, so it's different than, you know, if you hold up your phone or something, it's different than a product that somebody needs to understand how much it costs. How long is the battery life? I'm sort of making this up, this is different. The, the insurance, what we're selling is in part the policy, but it's also in part a relationship with the agent. We have almost 20,000 agents across the United States who are independent contractors, you know, not State Farm employees, and they're running small businesses and trying to be meaningful and are meaningful in the communities where they live and work and offer basically advice services, et cetera. So for us, from a national campaign perspective, we've gotta make sure the brand is strong and branding is not product advertising. We need to make sure that our assets are known and appreciated. And asset is Jake from State Farm that you already mentioned, but also our jingle or even just the words like a good neighbor State Farm is there. And so we dial up and dial down each of those assets in real life or in the virtual world, depending on the life stage. The person that we're targeting, do they know us or not? Are we trying to bind a policy today or not? And that's, you know, the mix with which we're trying to buy media and showing up in places where these current and potential customers are. It'sDamian Fowler: (03:54)Interesting to hear you talk about big national campaigns and that that awareness that you drive and done it so successfully over the years. And, and the latest iteration of course is is Jake from State Farm, that character, what, why has he proved such a strong character in campaigns?Alyson Griffin: (04:09)He started out over 10 years ago as Jake, a real State Farm employee, and it was back when we were putting agents and employees in our ads. And you may recall the original campaign where it's a middle of the night phone call and the husband is talking on the phone, the wife comes downstairs, who are you talking to? And it's Jake from State Farm. And the question is, what are you wearing? And he says, uh, khakis, . So we got a lot of play out of that for many, many, many years. But that was of real employees, not an actor, doesn't, he has a job and a family and a life and isn't a trained actor. So fast forward to about 2019, um, maybe 2018, the company was looking to say, Hey, we have some equity in the, in the asset or the one word, I'll call it Jake from State Farm, all one word.Alyson Griffin: (04:56)And you know, how do we dial that up and make that asset work harder and be more meaningful for, for us, because we thought it could be the personification of what it means to be a good neighbor. And we're very fortunate, he is thought of as a real person, and he's not a cartoon or a caricature. He's really Jake from State Farm, he's a guy, he's doing good neighbor stuff, he's got a TikTok account just like regular influencer or regular person would. And for us, making him bring to life the values of what it means to help more people in more ways and to be that good neighbor in the country, uh, really mattered to us. And so we put a lot of effort into making that a cultural icon. Yeah,Damian Fowler: (05:43)I mean he really has cut through and he's a very competitive world i, I gather so, and State Farm is very much present in the culture and um, one of the ways that you've done this so successfully is leaning into major sporting personalities, um, over the last several years, uh, including a campaign featuring,Alyson Griffin: (06:03)Uh,Damian Fowler: (06:03)Patrick Mahomes and Travis Kelsey for instance.Alyson Griffin: (06:06)What'sDamian Fowler: (06:07)The playbook there when you, when it comes to partnering with sports stars?Alyson Griffin: (06:11)We've been in sports for a very long time and it's important to us because it's tied to real passion. It's one of the last bastions of eyeballs all watching the same event at the same time. Right? Live television doesn't much exist anymore. If you're watching a Netflix episode and I'm watching one, we might not be at the same spot at the same time, for example. But live sports, you get people who are engaged across generations and, and a lot of viewership also don't forget from an advertising perspective, there's also highlights the replays, et cetera. So for us, sports has been long something we've leaned into and the advertising we realized performs better when, if you're not an endemic brand to sports, and we are not. And so for us, aligning our brand with brand ambassadors who match our values and are at the top of their game, showed us that we could cut through. So we have football, you know, Patrick Mahomes, you mentioned Travis Kelsey, he was with us this current football season. Um, and Coach Reed, you know, in football spots and Chris Paul and other NBA players in basketball spots. We have women for women's sports, et cetera. So the idea is if we match the passion and a relevant player and create a spot that leans into endemically where the ad is showing, it just performs much better.Damian Fowler: (07:31)Hmm, that's interesting.Ilyse Liffreing: (07:33)Now, speaking of sport and Travis Kelsey, let's talk about that viral moment that was created when Jake from State Farm was spotted chatting with who else? The Donna, Kelsey,Alyson Griffin: (07:43)TravisIlyse Liffreing: (07:44)Kelsey's mom, of course in the NFL Suite.Alyson Griffin: (07:47)WhatIlyse Liffreing: (07:47)Kind of reaction did you get from this, like viral moments and seeing all the elements come together? Can you walk us through how you kind of seized the moment?Alyson Griffin: (07:55)Yeah, that was really interesting. So the week before, we know that Travis Kelsey had a special guest in the box with his mom, and that was Taylor Swift. So I like to say we acted swiftly, . And within a week, um, we were able to place Jake from State Farm at Jason Kelsey's game, the Eagles. And we didn't want, you know, Jason, Kelsey's mom not to have a superstar celebrity sit with her. Uh, I say with a big smile on my face, . And it was great. We, we did have to act really fast. We that came together in less than 48 hours and, and for us capturing a cultural moment, and again, we have this asset that looks like and acts like and feels like a real human being. Jake from State Farm, so he could show up in the stands sitting with Mama Ma Otto, I'll call her as a nod to Travis Kelsey playing Mahomes and Mato in our current ads. Um, but with Donna Kelsey and, and him sitting there, you know, he sits, uh, courtside at NBA Allstar games, he shows up at Bravo con Twitch Con, right? Like, so Jake shows up in the world. And, and so the magic of saying we could really capitalize on this quickly and the fact that all the stars aligned and it came together was really, really fun for us.Ilyse Liffreing: (09:12)What does like a viral moment like that though mean for your brand? Because I know you talked about being like culturally resonant brand in insuranceAlyson Griffin: (09:21)AndIlyse Liffreing: (09:21)This would seem like a perfect example ofAlyson Griffin: (09:24)DoingIlyse Liffreing: (09:24)Just thatAlyson Griffin: (09:25)For us. Um, being culturally relevant matters. And it's not that any brand tries to be if you try too hard and for us, it's not that we're trying too hard, it's Hey, Jake would be there and we thought that we would be true to who we are. He shows up in those kinds of, um, situations regularly. And so let's just try it. And it wasn't because we were trying to be culturally iconic, it was because it just fit.Damian Fowler: (09:55)I mean, I wonder how do you measure something like that? I know it is a viral moment and it goes big, but do you see kind of the results of that?Alyson Griffin: (10:02)Yes. You can't pick a viral moment, right? It goes viral because it goes viral. And, and so then all of the, you know, there's the regular stuff you would think the reach, the syndication, the press, the chatter on, you know, X and other social media platforms of course were part of it. Engagement hashtags. That was all obvious. But what we were super excited about is a company EDO does measurement around search volume and correlating the exact second that Jake from State Farm was on camera to search volume was astonishing. Astonishing. And the results of all six of those spots increased in awareness by 15 times because of the viral moment. So it was like something that you wouldn't know, that you can't test and you don't get the opportunity to learn from very often, right? 'cause those don't happen very often. But we saw meaningful increase and value from a very innocent, just let's put Jake from State Farm next to Donna Kelsey.Damian Fowler: (11:12)I know you are exploring other channels as well to reach, you mentioned Gen X and Gen Z, the Gen Z audience, which is obviouslyAlyson Griffin: (11:19)GonnaDamian Fowler: (11:20)Be looking for insurance too. Um, in particular your gamer hood challenge, which launched last year, and I'm interested to talk about gaming and eSports and why is that an important part of your playbook?Alyson Griffin: (11:31)I'm fairly new to State Farm. I've been at State Farm for two and a half years, but I spent almost 30 years in the tech industry. And I say that to say gaming. I was at Hewlett-Packard and Intel for most of my career, and they're endemic to gaming. And so I had a lot of experience in the gaming world when I stepped in the door at State Farm, the insurance category other than maybe a logo sponsorship on a gamer or a game that's pretty much all the insurance industry was doing. And I was like, look, if we can, because the audience mattered these gamers, not eSports teams, but a casual fun gamers, much bigger universe. And we thought if we could tap in for generating future demand, again, these are not people who are buying policies today, but to get and show up at the place they already are with, um, an interest that they already have.Alyson Griffin: (12:23)It's very similar to the playbook of sports, but this is a different kind of audience and showing up for them in gaming. And so we created our own intellectual property around a gaming competition. It's run two years in a row now in the month of June for five episode, five weekly episodes and have gamers competing. And we've got Jake from State Farm in there, our assets and we loosely tie insurable moments. So think the gamers have to cope with distractions and still try to win. And some of the distractions are pipes in the house will burst or um, some of them went on a little road trip and they got a flat tire, right? So just loose and fun. We're not selling anything, we're not trying to shove anything down the throats, but to watch these, I'll call them insurable moments, hinder the forward progress of a gamer in a fun, interesting way. And the gamers had a lot of fun with, it was a really cool experience, uh, for us. And it's done quite well. That'sDamian Fowler: (13:21)Interesting. It goes back to your sort of ways of reaching customers at these different life stages and you're very nuanced about it and, and kind of smart the way you, you're doing it.Alyson Griffin: (13:31)Well, exactly where they are on Twitch and YouTube, right? Mm-Hmm. from a gaming perspective. So be where they are, don't make them come to me. Mm-Hmm. , they're not gonna go seeking out an insurance brand. I better go be there. Mm-Hmm. with something fun, interesting and different. And that's what we attempted to do.Damian Fowler: (13:45)I also noticed that you had created some Pinterest pins aimed at educating viewers around why they should get life insurance.Alyson Griffin: (13:53)CanDamian Fowler: (13:53)You talk a little bit about that campaign as well?Alyson Griffin: (13:55)Yeah. That's another life stage, right? So these media partners of ours are great because we wanna lean in and be, I'm gonna call it, I've never used this before, but endemic to the partner, right? Mm-Hmm. . So a Pinterest board. Mm-Hmm. . And if you can notice what somebody is doing, whether they're redecorating a room, like looks like, oh, this person might be remodeling their bathroom, or oh, this person might be having a baby, or oh, this person might be buying a new house or cars or whatever. Pinterest is such a great, uh, media outlet for passion points. And we thought, well, these are life moments. And as we talked about at the top of the podcast, these life moments, um, are a way in for us to meet a person where they are and not just say, get a quote for auto insurance, but to go offer them up something that's contextually relevant to what they're doing. And because Pinterest is what Pinterest is, we're able to do that in a meaningful way. Now when itIlyse Liffreing: (14:51)Comes to more like big TV buys and like maybe CTV buys, do you think like holistically about campaigns and connect those big TV buys with like more performance driven plays? Oh,Alyson Griffin: (15:05)A hundred percent. So State Farm, you know, is a prolific advertiser, right? Our category demands that. And television was the way, let's say, I don't even know, it's probably wasn't that long ago if I really stopped to think about it. The world's moving so fast.Ilyse Liffreing: (15:18)It is, it is.Alyson Griffin: (15:20)Goes quickly, but we know that digital matters and so do the, the media partners. They know that, um, digital and the even live shows that get streamed for the week after, they know that they can target that there's a lot of value that they can sell to advertisers for that long tail of their own, even a live experience. So we know that we need to do both. We still are big advertisers in live tv, mostly sports, but also working with the media partners who are putting really great content online and targeting. And that data matters so much and we're working more and more and more with partners to figure out how do we catch the right person at the right time with the right message, um, that's contextually relevant and that helps us be relevant to the person at the time that they need it.Damian Fowler: (16:13)Retail data is really come into its own, should we say, and especially for non-endemic brands, again, inside that ecosystem. How has that made a difference? Um, you know, in the last two years,Alyson Griffin: (16:24)A lot, it's funny, and I can say this out loud because Home Depot themselves said it, we're the first non-endemic partner of Home Depot, and we're partnering with them not only for their stores and the environment, they have a lot of small businesses as their customers, as well as home ownership, right? Mm-Hmm. and Car Repair and Home and Auto, yeah. Um, and so we are partnering with the Home Depot who knows very deeply about who their customers are and what matters from a data sharing perspective. And, uh, we think there's nowhere to go but up on that. Of course, we do it with media partners, of course. Uh, Disney being a very big one, right? Just because of all of their properties. It, it's on both levels is my point. So a big media partner that knows their audience, but someone like Home Depot or Walmart, those are really important to us so that we can continue to offer the best message to these customers and around things like small business or home improvement or auto care that matters to us. We sell those products.Ilyse Liffreing: (17:25)How are you thinking about 2024? Do you think you can actually like build upon this year's viral moments,Alyson Griffin: (17:32)? Yeah, I mean, we hope so, right? So Jake from State Farm isn't going anywhere, but we are going to dial up, you'll start seeing, um, more around our jingle. So I'm not saying our jingle is not known like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. I won't sing it here,Ilyse Liffreing: (17:46), although I'llAlyson Griffin: (17:47)Tell you, I'll give you a little fun fact That Jingle was written in 1971 by none other than Barry Manalow.Ilyse Liffreing: (17:53)No, really?Damian Fowler: (17:54)Yes. Does Barry get royalties?Alyson Griffin: (17:55)I don't know. , , probably , but we, you know, it's known and there's a lot of TikTok. You can go out and look at our, look at that jingle and see a lot of people playing with the content. We wanna kind of kick that into high gear again and, um, not only talk about Jake from State Farm, but have some fun playing with our jingles. So the notion of being a good neighbor and being there for people is one part of it. But the actual notes, the song of it is another.Damian Fowler: (18:25)And that's it for the current podcast. We'll be back next week with our guest, Jonathan Stringfield, the VP of Global Research and Marketing at Activision BlizzardJonathan Stringfield:Gaming is increasingly going to be a hobby that is divorced from gaming devices virtually anywhere that there is a screen that's smart, there's probably gonna be an opportunity to play a game. Ilyse Liffreing: (19:02)And if you love this podcast, be sure to subscribe and leave a review While you're at it. Check out our other show, the current report, our weekly roundup of what's happening in the world of digital media. The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by Loving Caliber. The current team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce.Damian Fowler: (19:31)And remember,Ilyse Liffreing: (18:30)The current podcast is produced by Wondered Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. The current team includes Chris Ley and Cat Feste.Damian Fowler: (18:38)And remember,Alyson Griffin: (18:39)We've gotta make sure the brand is strong and branding is not product advertising. We need to make sure that our assets are known and appreciated.Damian Fowler: (18:49)I'm DamienIlyse Liffreing: (18:50)And I'm Elise.Damian Fowler: (18:51)And that's it for season seven of the current podcast. We'll be back soon for a new season with more great conversations with the world's leading marketers. And if you like what you hear, subscribe, and please leave as a review. Also tune into our other podcast, the current report as we round up the week's biggest marketing headlines from across the open internet. We'll see you soon.

The NFL’s Marissa Solis on the Taylor Swift effect, expanding globally, and the powerful messaging coming for the Super Bowl. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Damian Fowler: (00:01)I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse Liffreing: (00:02)And I'm Ilyse Liffreing. AndDamian Fowler: (00:03)Welcome to this edition of The Current podcast.Ilyse Liffreing: (00:10)This week we're delighted to talk with Marissa Solis, the SVP of Global and Consumer Marketing for the NFLDamian Fowler: (00:17)In 2021, the NFL recruited Marissa after almost two decades As a marketing leader with PepsiCo, it was an opportunity to influence the league's almost 400 million sports fans around the world.Marissa Solis: (00:32)It's an incredible feeling when the NFL calls and especially with an opportunity to influence the messaging and the marketing of such an incredible platform with so much potential. You know, it's something, an opportunity I can pass up.Damian Fowler: (00:45)I mean, there's no doubt about it that the NFL is one of the most dominant cultural forces in the world. So let's start right there. And we obviously have to start with the NFL's, which recent pop culture boost from Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey, which is must be a consumer marketer's dream in a way. Could you talk to us about that moment and the opportunity for you as a marketer?Marissa Solis: (01:05)It means a lot when things like this happen and it goes so viral, it just goes to show that the NFL is at the peak of, you know, entertainment. I have to tell you, none of us knew this was not planned. This was not anything that was orchestrated. We had sort of heard the rumors about Travis, you know, going to her concert and then inviting her to the game. But we really didn't know. We didn't know she was gonna show up at the game. And so when it all happened, I mean the power of social media, right within 10 seconds this thing went viral. And for us, you know, we have a social media and influencer arm within the league that are ready at the go when anything happens. So we were able to capitalize and have some fun with the fans. Uh, we created some 1 0 1 football videos for Swifties that had never seen the game before on how you play. But think about all of the NFL fans that don't know who Taylor Swift is. So we also were able to do a little bit of education to some of our NFL fans about who she is. So it's actually been a cultural education for a lot of people and we've had a lot of fun with it. Yeah,Ilyse Liffreing: (02:10)Thank you for clearing that up because I think a lot of rumors circulating was like, oh, the NF L's behind it, they know this happened. Had no idea they a planMarissa Solis: (02:17)Idea. No idea. But I, I think, you know, it's a really good lesson for marketers. Mm-hmm. Culture happens at the speed of light and you just have to be ready. You know, we like to say or think we create culture, but culture is organic and embedded culture just happens and we just happen to be ready at the moment, right? Yeah.Damian Fowler: (02:37)There's no doubt that the Super Bowl is the high point of the year. Curious, are you gonna be using some of these immovable cultural forces like Taylor Swift and Kelsey in your Super Bowl messaging?Marissa Solis: (02:47)You know, we always leveraged the Super Bowl to do some powerful messaging around the joy of the sport, but also how the sport transcends. So last year the message was all around the power of women and what women bring to the sport. And now we're in the Olympics. So you're gonna see some powerful messaging about what the league means to culture. It will be a very powerful message.Ilyse Liffreing: (03:10)On that note, do you have like a favorite Super Bowl ad?Marissa Solis: (03:13)I did not even know you were gonna ask me that by the way. But I have to say, and it's very ironic, my favorite Super Bowl out of all times was actually created by Tim Ellis, who's my boss. He was not at the NFL at the time, he was at Volkswagen and it's the Darth Vader spot. You know, I don't know if you know where the, where the little boy he's playing Darth Vader and at the end the dad turns on the car and he's like, oh my God, I love, love that spot. And when I interviewed with Tim that was like the first thing IDamian Fowler: (03:44)Wanted to just pivot a little bit. I saw an interview in the Hollywood reporter with uh, the NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell, who was headlined Hollywood's MVP. And in that piece he talks about how the NFL has embraced streaming, which you know is a topic we talk about a lot. And he was quoted as sayingMarissa Solis: (04:00)TheDamian Fowler: (04:01)Technology's changing, the platforms are changing, the economy is changing and we have to be ahead of that strategy at all times so that we are where our fans are and on the platforms they want to be on. Can you talk to us a little bit about the challengeMarissa Solis: (04:12)AndDamian Fowler: (04:13)Opportunity of these streaming platforms that he's talking aboutMarissa Solis: (04:17)Really more of an opportunity. It really becomes about, like he said, being where our fans are and we know particularly Gen Z, they're not necessarily watching linear tv. They're not spending three and a half hours, you know, watching a game. And so that's why platforms like Google and YouTube and having Sunday ticket on there opens up an incredible way to distribute our content. Also it opens up the power of the creator economy for us because we can leverage a lot of YouTube's creators to create content to attract this audience. You think about all of the different things we've been able to do with that YouTube partnership, every club has a YouTube channel. We have our Spanish language NFL channel. So we've been able to do a lot with Google and YouTube. We also have our Thursday night football partnership with Amazon. So for the first time ever, this is the second year that a Thursday night a big platform game is completely streamed. We're now commanding on average 13 million viewers a week on a streaming platform. That's massive. I don't know if you guys know this, but this will be the first year in history that we create a Black Friday game on Amazon. So first time ever there's a Friday NFL game, it's on Amazon Prime but it's going to be free. So it's not behind the paywall. Anybody can join, anybody can stream it. So we think it's gonna be huge.Damian Fowler: (05:38)That's gonna be huge. Yeah. Wow. Another huge cultural force. AnotherMarissa Solis: (05:42)Huge cultural force. So now you have a Black Friday game, you know, it's a new watching occasion.Ilyse Liffreing: (05:47)What do you think overall about like streaming and live sports coming together and just captivating like whole new audiences? I know with the brand like the NFL, which everybody knows, it's kind of can be hard to like strike a balance between embracing like new preferences and habits of like younger consumers while also then maintaining the authenticity and tradition of a brand as like iconic as the NFL.Marissa Solis: (06:12)Yeah, of course. And it, it is the right balance and the beautiful thing is when you look at linear tv, even though you know you start to see some audiences leave linear, we still command the biggest audiences on linear, right? We just had our largest game ever on Sunday night with 28 million viewers. Now some of that may have been the Travis and Taylor Swift effect, but we're still commanding audiences on linear. However, when you look at the opportunity to do streaming, like I said, direct to consumer, we just launched our direct to consumer platform, NFL plus. And so you can also stream games on your mobile, you can look at statistics, you can look at lifestyle and stories, uh, of the players and really get much more involved in the game than just watching, you know, the traditional three hour game. There's a lot more there to, to see and learn about.Ilyse Liffreing: (07:04)Now part of your remit is to help diversify the marketing for the NFL or as you put it so nicely, future-proof the brand. I have read that 60% of the NFL audience is white and over 35 the America of the future however will be very young and multicultural. So how do you approach this challenge?Marissa Solis: (07:23)I think that stat that you read is probably about two years old and interestingly enough, that was one of the reasons I came to the NFL. In order for us to stay relevant in the future, we have to reflect the audiences that we serve. And as the world gets more multicultural as Gen Z and Jen A as they kind of come into being, we really have to embrace them and bring 'em in. So part of our strategy is to keep the fan base we have, but a big part of our strategy is to extend to those new audiences. So that includes, you know, gen Z and younger audiences, but also multicultural audiences, our Latino audience, our African American and Asian audience, our L-G-B-T-Q community. Like we really need to embrace them and bring them in to engage with a sport in a new way.Damian Fowler: (08:11)Can I just ask, how specifically do you try to engage those different communities?Marissa Solis: (08:16)Yeah, I think it's about meeting them where they are, both from a channel perspective, right? How they're watching, but also understanding how they engage with the game. They all engage with the game very, very differently. You know, our Latino audience is an example. The way they watch, the way they celebrate, the way they tailgate is very, very different. They bring in their traditions and so we wanna celebrate that. We've been doing a lot this year to really highlight Latino players 'cause people don't even realize we have 51 Latino players on the roster playing and each one of them has a very unique and different story. So you know, whether it's Fred Warner from the 49 ERs ERs who's a Mexican descent or young Colombian player, you know, who just got drafted in the league Rodriguez who plays for the Patriots. It's all about kind of bringing to life in a very different way to these audiences, uh, the game. AndIlyse Liffreing: (09:09)One of those audiences is women too. And the NFL has made a big effort towards getting more women involved in the game, both as staff and then as fans. What are some ways you're trying to connect your marketing to women?Marissa Solis: (09:21)Yeah, I think women, you know, are big part of our fan base. Almost 47% of our fan base are women. We have the highest women fan base percent of any league in the country and women love football, right? So it really is about engaging them in the game in a unique way, recognizing not just how they engage and watch the game, but also how they participate. I don't think people realize we have so many women champion players, right? Both flag football but also tackle. I just heard that there was the first ever high school girl that just got a scholarship to play tackle to be the kicker for a college team. So more and more women are participating, they're becoming coaches, trainers, scouts, you know, executives. So it's a great way to kind of see that level of participation. And of course, you know, we have to get back to Taylor and the swifty effect capturing this fan base, right? The swifties as you call them and really having the opportunity to educate them, bring them in, bring kind of that cultural fandom, the lifestyle, whether it's the music, the fashion, the food, all of those things are part of the NFL and part of the sport. So it just makes it richer and and more relevant.Ilyse Liffreing: (10:37)Do you see that Taylor Swift effect, if you will, kind of more as like a flash in the pan or do you think they'll have like a last engagement? Especially with women?Marissa Solis: (10:45)What I think is important for us is that we have a moment in time where swifties, as we call 'em, are paying attention. And so this is our moment to capture them and bring 'em into the sport so that they engage ongoing. Whether the Taylor Swift effect last or doesn't last, we wanna keep that fan base and we'll do so by again being culturally relevant, bringing in their life, their music, their fashion, the way they really wanna engage the game.Damian Fowler: (11:13)The NFL really is a cultural force and a lot of brands look to the NFL as sort of a beacon for sports across the media landscape. You know, I'm wondering how, you know, you approach distribution and partnerships in your marketing and what brands can learn from how you approach it.Marissa Solis: (11:28)I mean, again, it's really about being where the fans are. So every partnership matters, right? And we take every partnership very seriously. And so whether it's a partnership that has a lot of reach so that we reach a massive audience or maybe it's a partnership that will reach somebody different, whether it's in another country or a segment of, you know, the fan base that we haven't reached before. We have a very nascent platform right now as an example called Mundo, NFL. It is a podcast based platform and again, it's reaching a completely new audience and may not be as broad based as, you know, a Google or a YouTube, but it's still important for us 'cause we're reaching that fan base. So it's a balance of reach, very, very targeted, but just making sure that we are offering the content and distributing it out there to, you know, every corner of the fan base as I call it.Damian Fowler: (12:22)What kind of market research do you do to stay ahead of where fans are moving and the kind of things that they want to engage with and how that is evolving? Yeah,Marissa Solis: (12:29)We're very, very engaged in research 24 7, 3, 6 5. The very basic, you know, we do keep a pulse on how the league is doing with fans. We know perception, uh, we measure certain attributes, you know, are we inclusive, are we fun, are we engaging? And we measure them across all those audiences. And that is ongoing, right? In terms of culture, I wish I could tell you the, the formula, there really isn't one. It really is about having a very engaged team. As I mentioned, we have an incredible social and influencer team led by Ian Trombetta, which I gotta give them a shout out. They are incredible. They're in the culture and they hear things and they observe and they do a lot of social listening. And when something like Taylor Swift showing up to the game happens, even though we didn't know about it, they're on it immediately. And I think that's, that's where the success comes from. WhereDamian Fowler: (13:22)Do you find inspiration in, in what's going on in the larger culture?Marissa Solis: (13:26)We like the balance of timeless and timely. You've gotta keep these timeless essence about you that creates your brand, but you also have to be really timely, right? I'll also say what inspires me at our brands with purpose, because we aren't just about the game, we transcend the game. We're such a big platform, we wanna make an impact to communities everywhere and we bring people together. We can uplift, you know, underserved communities. So when I see brands like Patagonia doing things, they aren't for necessarily for the profit of it, they're for the good of the community and the world. Those things inspire me as well.Damian Fowler: (14:04)You have a great deal of responsibility. It's one of the most powerful brands. Do you feel that sense of responsibilityMarissa Solis: (14:09)Every single day? There's so many eyes on the league, anything that happens is talked about. We don't control the players, we don't control. When Taylor shows up to a stadium, we, we don't control it. It is an incredible sense of responsibility to try to at least shape the culture so that, you know, the message is a positive one and we make a positive impact, not a negative impact. So that, that's a tough one. Now,Ilyse Liffreing: (14:36)Earlier this year you announced that NFL expanded its global markets program. Can you tell us a bit about that and then what the marketing opportunity looks like internationally for American football?Marissa Solis: (14:48)Super exciting. This is probably one of the things I'm most excited about, about the league. You know, arguably we're the biggest sports and entertainment entity in the us. Not so much in the world. When you look and see the power of FIFA and, and the power of Formula One, like we want to the number one sports and entertainment entity in the world. Now we've expanded, we have 21 of our clubs have signed international rights in all sorts of countries. So everywhere from Ireland, Africa, you know, Brazil, uh, Spain. And so in the very, very near future, you're gonna start to see more and more international games, more and more of our clubs playing in the global arena. And of course, I I have to mention the Olympics, right? We are now in the Olympics for LA 28, which we'll see, you know, both men and women participating in our sport for the first time across the world. IDamian Fowler: (15:46)Read that you were, you studied to be, uh, an an ambassador.Marissa Solis: (15:50)I did, I did.Damian Fowler: (15:51)So this is an interesting, you know, turn of events for you.Marissa Solis: (15:54)It is, um, it's very ironic in very much a way. I feel like an, I'm an ambassador to the fan base and different communities. So it's been fun. Yeah,Damian Fowler: (16:03)I mean the NFL in a way it's a state unto itself.Marissa Solis: (16:06)You could say that. Yes, .Ilyse Liffreing: (16:07)Now the NFL is arguably the most sought after brand to partner and align advertising with, but it's also very seasonal. So how do you maintain engagement and relevance in the off season?Marissa Solis: (16:18)You know, it's funny you say that. It's absolutely not seasonal. We are 365 year round. I actually saw that come to life this year. We just got statistics back during the quote unquote off season in the month of June. We had over 200 million hours of content consumed. We were, I think the third league. And that's without any games or anything like that. So I think annually the stat is we're 45% of the sports conversation and only 2% of the games played in the us. That's a US number. And it's incredible, right? Because in the off season people are talking about the free agents who's gonna sign on what team, and then you get content like the quarterback series on Netflix. And now we've got partnerships with like, we have a partnership with Skydance to create stories and movies. Then you come have back together Saturday and training camps and then you have the preseason. So there actually really isn't an an off season anymore. I'mIlyse Liffreing: (17:18)Sure that's changing with streaming too. 'cause you can just goMarissa Solis: (17:21)On content. Content is king, right? Content everywhere.Ilyse Liffreing: (17:58)One final question. In your view, what does the NFL look like in 2030?Marissa Solis: (18:05)I mean, I think, you know, the vision is that we are the pinnacle of entertainment around the world. And so that means amazing live sports, unpredictable seasons, right? Just like we have today. The game played in every country, and not just professionally on tv, but every country participating in the game of flag football, more Olympics, Netflix, or in the movie theaters, or much more storytelling around the incredible stories that this league represents. More diversity in the game, more diversity in the front office, in the coaching staff. So all, all good things, hopefully lots of impact.Damian Fowler: (18:49)And that's it for the current podcast. We'll be taking a break next week to celebrate Thanksgiving here in the us. But we'll be back at the end of the month with our guest, Jonathan Stringfield, the VP of Global Research and Marketing at Activision BlizzardJonathan Stringfield:Gaming is increasingly going to be a hobby that is divorced from gaming devices virtually anywhere that there is a screen that's smart, there's probably gonna be an opportunity to play a game. Ilyse Liffreing: (19:02)And if you love this podcast, be sure to subscribe and leave a review While you're at it. Check out our other show, the current report, our weekly roundup of what's happening in the world of digital media. The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by Loving Caliber. The current team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce.Damian Fowler: (19:31)And remember,Marissa Solis: (19:32)We aren't just about the game. We transcend the game. We're such a big platform. We wanna make an impact to communities everywhere.Damian Fowler: (19:39)I'm DamianIlyse Liffreing: (19:40)And I'm Ilyse.Damian Fowler: (19:41)And we'll see you next time.

Zillow’s Beverly Jackson on simplifying the housebuying process through its marketing, and why working at the company has special importance for her as a Black woman. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Damian: (00:01)I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse: (00:02)And I'm Ilyse Liffreing.Damian: (00:04)And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.Ilyse: (00:10)This week we sit down with Beverly Jackson, the VP of Brand and Product Marketing at Real Estate Company Zillow withDamian: (00:17)Over 212 million average monthly users is the country's number one real estate app and a website. In fact, Zillow is becoming a housing super app designed to help people find the home of their dreams.Ilyse: (00:31)Beverly is an award-winning marketer with two decades of experience managing global campaign for companies, including the Recording Academy where she delivered record breaking social engagement for the 54th Grammy Awards, Yahoo, MGM Resorts International and at Twitter before it became X.Damian: (00:50)We started by asking her about this impressive career journeyBeverly: (00:58)As I still like to think that I am always sort of new and fresh faced to digital marketing 'cause I tend to be a digital first storyteller and a digital first brand person. I always think about two things. What is the brand looking to achieve and how are we thinking about growing? And then I think about how does that connect to culture? And so whether it was the Grammys or Yahoo or MG M resource as a hospitality brand or a sports betting band or something like Twitter, it's always about what is the connection to the customer? Is it digital first? How does it play in transforming or growing the brand or the business or its role or impact. Share a voice, share a wallet in the industry vertical. And then the connection to culture. I think it's very important how a brand connects to its customers through culture is such a powerful way to tell brand stories. That was important for all the work that I've done previous and it's certainly the way I think about my role here at Zillow.Ilyse: (01:58)Would you say that was basically the opportunity that Zillow kind of created for you that was so compelling on your end?Beverly: (02:06)The idea that Zillow helps consumers more and more consumers get home and that's what we're sort of working towards. There's not a, not a bigger brand moment in a consumer's life than sort of helping them to figure out what home means. 'cause it's such a personal experience and, and with Zillow sort of being the destination for the real estate industry, it's a beacon for all consumers. And it's sort of getting them from that idea of like idea dreaming about what home they want to actually getting into a home. So the brand is transforming, it's culturally relevant, it's significant to a specific population and to others it makes so much sense to me. So like when we think about like millennial, the millennial consumers, it was not an opportunity that I could easily ignore or walk away from.Damian: (02:52)Now Beverly, I wanna ask you, you know, buying a home has always kind of been a complex process. To what extent would you say that the tech has speeded things up or maybe simplified that whole process?Beverly: (03:02)The idea is that buying a house, especially your first house is gnarly. Like it's so intense, it's so intense, it's so many moving parts, it's so confusing. But then we have this large generation of sort of digital first consumers that expect consumer tech to be a utility. The tech has to be easy and it has to demystify the complicated process. It has to serve the customer's needs to their ultimate goal, but it has to meet them where they are. Zillow as a consumer tech company, as a financial tech company, as a real estate company is making it easier, which is why we're so well situated for this idea of a housing super app where a consumer, regardless of where they are in the process, can come into the Zillow ecosystem and find a way to answer the questions that they need and help guide themselves through the process. 'cause the goal is not just to help them search for a great home or to talk to real estate agents before they find the perfect agent for them, but you've gotta tour a lot of houses. The housing super app concept in addition to financing and figuring out what you can afford and then financing it and then closing the deal, signing all the papers and actually getting into your home. Zillow is ideally situated to do that.Damian: (04:22)Just to break that down a little bit further, you know there are other property search engines out there, but Zillow goes above and beyond that. What is the differentiating factor at Zillow? And you mentioned some of those just nowBeverly: (04:34)Customers are a north star without question. So the idea of customers being the driving force behind what we do and how we serve information back to them, meeting them where they are, offering them real tangible tools, techniques, information and solutions that meet their needs. And then also our partners having access to some of the best real estate agents in the business. The people who are the best of Zillow.Ilyse: (05:02)Now, how would you say like home buying reflects what's going on overall in society? I know right now for instance, interest rates are really high. It's, it's pretty expensive to buy a home. The data must, you know, really tell a story of what's going on overall in the US and around the world. How does Zillow tap into basically that culture too of like home buying?Beverly: (05:24)I think for me, this goes back to sort of the origins of Zillow. What Rich Barton our founder wanted to do was make sure that information was available to everyone. That there was transparency in how the listings were available, who could see them, how, how much a house was being sold for or how much a house was worth. Using transparency and information and access to information to empower consumers to help them better understand what we're doing and to help actually create a seamless, frictionless system for them to get home. I think that's the magic combination that is important to consumers. Whether interest rates are 2.2% or whether they're 8%, unfortunatelyIlyse: (06:12)Now with all that going on is now the right time to buy?Beverly: (06:17)I think now is the right time for the right consumers. We have so many economists and data scientists on staff and they're always looking to monitor the markets to understand what product offerings are right and get that information back out to our customers so that customers are empowered and they can decide for themselves. And then when you partner them with a great agent and you can help get them the best financing for their situations, it becomes more likely that more people will find it the right time for them.Damian: (06:52)I'm curious, you know, there must be some interesting insights into what people want, you know, weird homes, homes with bowling alleys, I think you've talked about. Could you talk a little bit about what the data tells you and why it's fundamental in a way to the way you market? Zillow,Beverly: (07:07)Our latest consumer housing trends report shows that half of the buyers are doing it for the very first time. They need lots of information. And so it's about creating product and information for them. But we also know that the median home buyer in the US are partnered or married. They have at least some college education and they're most likely to buy a home in the southern part of the United States. So making sure that we have the right information and the right tools for those consumers wildly important. But we also know that half of those people have kids under the age, age of 18 and most of them are under the age of five, which means that they need room for those families. And so we have a sense of like the kinds of homes that are going to come up in their search and creating personalized options and search options for them is important. There are no homes with bowling alleys in New York currently on the site that I'm aware of, you know, , but, but I think that there are some bowling alley homes out there.Damian: (08:10)You mentioned your brand campaign. Could you talk about the concept behind the latest one?Beverly: (08:16)It was really a lot of fun for the team at Zillow to lean into this idea that Zillow is a verb and that people are always Zillow and they're on the spot. I mean people spend, I think it's close to like 40 minutes on the app and on the website dreaming and being aspirational. And so the idea was how could we in a fun way, in a disruptive manner, use culture and culturally significant moment to connect people to their dreams and help it become a reality. And so the campaign spends a lot of time of breaking through barriers and noise for consumers about, they're not alone. It's super complicated, it's a complex experience, but Zillow can actually help you do all of these things that you need. And what you can count on us for is finding a weird home with a bowling alley or a wall of uh, , a fish tank and a wall.Beverly: (09:14)But it's also that you're gonna need to figure out what you can afford. You're gonna need to get pre-qualified. You're gonna need to get approved. You need to be able to, on your schedule, find an opportunity to tour the home, um, without having to talk to 15 people when you wanna be able to do it, when you wanna be able to do it. And so bringing that all together and that was making this a digital first storytelling experience and that's how the campaign came to life. Like there's lots of big iconic, thoughtful moments about changing the way consumers think about the concept of Zillow, but also presenting them with a suite of end-to-end solutions. Breaking that up and making it accessible to them. And then I think the piece that I'm super excited about that I was most excited about, about the campaign is how we're showing up in culture in unexpected places. And whether it's the NBA finals or in a movie premiere or through partnerships or your favorite podcast, but it's going where our customers are and having a conversation with them in a way that's meaningful to them. But it breaks through and it sort of disrupts the expectations of who we are and what they want from us.Damian: (10:32)I wanted to ask you off the back of that, you know, about the channels that you're exploring. 'cause clearly, you know, the customers are everywhere from connected TV to social media, to retail media even. So how do you think about those channels as a marketer? And a second part of that is, you know, who are you reaching? Who is your target audience?Beverly: (10:52)This campaign was really targeted at first time home buyers, right? And for them we think about that as a very millennial centric audience. And so we know that millennials are multicultural. We know that they're rooted in purpose. We know that they're mobile, so we know lots of things about millennials. We want it to be in places where those consumers were, right. And so we thought about connected television, we thought about uh, podcasts, we thought about movie premieres, we thought about sports as culture drivers and music as culture drivers. The other thing that's important to this as a concept is not just being national, but being local. I think people were super surprised to see us show up in a big way in a lot of our important local markets. Because remember, home buying and the real estate market is a national concept, right? And technology makes it accessible to everyone, which is Rich's first sort of democratizing information and making it accessible to everyone.Beverly: (11:50)But buying a home is a neighborhood experience. It's a local experience. People move street to street, neighborhood to neighborhood from one dog park to one school district to another. And that's very much a local experience. And so having the content and the creative and the storytelling go from top of funnel awareness to transaction and conversion at the bottom of funnel, and then having it go from national to local to neighborhood where your agent who knows the most about your community can help get you home. That was a really unexpected part of the campaign, I think for most people to see Zillow show up.Damian: (12:30)I also wanted to ask you, as you look across the United States, is there a prime buying season for real estate? And the reason I ask that is because I was looking around the Tri-state area and people were saying, oh, all the houses come on the market in May because people wanna move out of the area once their kids graduate high school and suddenly there's a surge of houses on the market. I wanted to find out if this is anecdotal or whether this is a reality, you know, in other words, , is there a moment in the year when real estate kind of booms?Beverly: (13:02)I think it's not completely anecdotal. There are definitely buying seasons. Um, no one, I'm from Chicago originally. No one wants to move in December. I think. Um, it's the idea of, uh, being in a walkup and having to carry down, uh, a very heavy dresser or an awkward sofa seems, um, not ideal. And if you live in Phoenix, you probably don't wanna move when it's 120 degrees, but people move when it's appropriate for their lives. There is definitely a buying season. And that's why for us, this campaign work that we're doing was so important. That's why it's really important that this work be bold, that it stand out, that it interrupt, that it disrupt so that people see it and know that Zillow is there to help them. And so we've, we've taken every step that we can take to make the cyclical nature of home buying as easy as possible.Ilyse: (13:57)Now let's end by putting, uh, this spotlight back on you a little bit. Um, you put purpose at the center of everything you do. Um, how does this role basically align with your values?Beverly: (14:09)The idea and the very promise of Zillow as a brand to help get more and more consumers home resonated with me at a very deep and meaningful level. Like we do great work, we have access to great data. We're a leading iconic bespoke brand. But as a woman of color and for someone who knows the importance and the significance of home ownership as a way to create generational wealth, as a place to feel safe, as a place to build something significant and rewarding for your life, you want that to be free of discrimination. You wanna have access to the homes that best meet your needs. That's in the core of who Zillow is. It's in their DNA. And so for me it was so personally significant and in addition to that, it was really important for me to want to be a part of evolving this brand.Beverly: (15:04)And I couldn't be more honored and more humbled by the opportunity to lead this brand and to lean into our brand promise. I love the idea of using consumer tech to help make it easy for people. I'm excited about the role that evolving Tech will help. The idea of building a housing Super app and creating an end-to-end connected experience for consumers that need access to information, couldn't be more excited to be a part of that. Um, it is the honor of a lifetime, quite frankly, for somebody like me who lives in a purpose-based marketing environment.Damian: (15:43)And that's it for the current podcast. Stay tuned because next time we'll be speaking with Marissa Solis, the SVP of Global and Consumer Marketing for the NFL.Ilyse: (15:53)It's a really good lesson for marketers. Culture happens at the speed of light and you just have to be ready. You know, we like to say or think we create culture, but culture is organic and embedded. Culture just happens and we just happen to be ready at the moment. The current podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by love and caliber. And the current team includes Chris Leyer and Catie. And remember,Beverly: (16:20)It's going where our customers are and having a conversation with them in a way that's meaningful to them. But it breaks through and it sort of disrupts the expectations of who we are and what they want from us.Damian: (16:35)I'm Damien andIlyse: (16:37)I'm my lease. AndDamian: (16:38)We'll see you soon.

VML CEO Jon Cook on how the agency came up with Wendy’s now iconic social media presence, the innovations he hopes to see in the streaming ad space and commerce on Instagram. Episode TranscriptPlease note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Ilyse: (00:01)I'm Ilyse Liffreing. AndDamian: (00:02)I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse: (00:03)And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.Damian: (00:10)This week we sit down with John Cook, the newly minted global CEO of VML.Ilyse: (00:16)VML is the new name for what is now one of the world's biggest creative companies. It's the result of WPPs merger of two of its creative agencies, Wunderman Thompson, and VMLY and R. The new company will employ 30,000 people in 64 markets.Damian: (00:34)WPP says, the merger is about simplifying business and unlocking scale for its clients, which includes blue chip companies like Colgate, Palm Olive, Dell Ford, Microsoft, Nestle, and Coca-Cola.Ilyse: (00:45)John Cook joined the agency back in 1996 when it only had 30 employees, which back then was just called VMLA full circle moment. He starts by telling us about the significance of the merger announced in October.Damian: (01:00)And one note, the first part of this podcast was recorded live at advertising week, New York. So John's audio changes a few minutes into the podcast.Jon: (01:11)I think it represents a reaction to, um, to several things, a reaction for holding companies like WPP to be simpler and easier to access. These are, these are two great companies within WPP, but they're two big companies. And that that can create confusion or complexity in within WPP. I think we've always simplified that well, but this takes that to the next level. This is a radical move in terms of simplicity. So I think it represents the thirst that marketers have for a simpler holding company landscape. A simpler WPP absolutely does that. It represents, I think, I think a statement about where the future of marketing is going. That a lot of people are pursuing you on one level. You've got consultants, you know, big consultancies pursuing creativity and trying, they're trying to acquire it, hire it, build it, and, and all having various levels success with that.Jon: (01:57)This represents a move to have the scale of some of the biggest consultancies, but with a creativity that I think a lot of them are really trying to have. We will have that right from the beginning. It represents, uh, a statement about where a lot of advertising agencies who are trying to stay relevant are going, meaning a lot of advertising are fantastic creative organizations, but they're all grappling with how do I add commerce, CRM, loyalty, technology, data. We have all that. When you put these two things together, what what I hope, and I think what we hope is that we are jumping right to that place where ad agencies and consultants are both trying to go from two different directions. We go there right now from the jump globally with, uh, two companies that already know each other really well, and it's a lot easier to say.Damian: (02:38)And so in, in, in effect, it's driven by the changing economics of advertising.Jon: (02:43)Yes, I think I I don't think it's solely driven by the change, the economics of advertising. I think there are economic advantages to being simpler. 'cause you can, you can be more efficient in, in how you deliver your, your agency. You can be, you know, and you can offer a lot. But I think it's, I think it's more driven by a fusion that marketers are looking for, not to speak for all marketers, but I think they struggle with how do I get brand storytelling and the the stories I wanna tell my by brand? How do I get that closer and closer to my product, the customer experience? And if I've got that right as a marketer, how do I then put that closer to the way people buy my product or transact or make a commitment to me as a brand? We're not perfect, and it won't be perfect right off the bat, but we have a really good chance to be the agency that can unite brand experience, customer experience, and commerce. Those three things aren't in our ingredients because they're fun or because we like those words, they're in our ingredients because that's the trilogy that marketers are looking for to, this is the absolute answer. For some peopleDamian: (03:41)May be a little bitJon: (03:42)Sad about sayingDamian: (03:43)Goodbye to some of those famous, famous names.Jon: (03:45)Like,Damian: (03:46)WhyJon: (03:46)And notDamian: (03:46)What, what do you say to those people?Jon: (03:48)I'm obviously in the camp of believing that evolution and simplicity is necessary to, to, to kind of go forward, but I have a ton of, um, respect and empathy for the fact. There's a lot of, uh, big brands that have built this to this place that we, that we are in now. And I think all you can do as a leader is just do two things. You can respect the heritage. It's not just heritage for heritage sake, heritage of capability. There is greatness in all those companies. It still exists in each of those companies in the, in the new company. As much as we're gonna respect that heritage and, and, and use all those ingredients to build our capability, at some point we have to make it about the future. So it's about informing the future with, with all that heritage. So it's, it's not just heritage for heritage sake, it's heritage to inform a, a future. And that's a responsibility we have to, um, you know, you know, in any company, but certainly an agency, you're trying to create a future for people to do what they want to do, and you have to make decisions about what gives you the best chance to do that and do that powerfully. And this does that.Ilyse: (04:47)Now, we, as both previous journalism majors find this really interesting that you actually started your career as a journalism major at the University of Missouri in 1993. In 2018, you delivered even the commencement address at the School of Graduation Ceremony. So I'd love to know what words of wisdom you shared about like what journalism really meant to you and maybe how it has even like shaped you as a marketer. Uh,Jon: (05:14)I had worked at Disney World for a while, and I remember some of, some of the advice I gave was, you know, you're, you're journalists and it's all about facts and, and, um, you know, this story, but it said, never lose in, in all the story and all the facts. You know, never lose the ability to add some pixie dust to things. Uh, especially those of you who are going into strategic communications. The meaning that, you know, we should be the exciting part of someone's day and, and the, and never lose the idea of what Disney World does, which is they exceed these already crazy high expectations. And what can you do in your career to bring your own pixie dust to every situation? So any interaction with you or your brand has that pixie dust. And I think journalism today, it's, it's even more critical to have a little bit of a brand and to have a, an expectation that a journalist has a, has a point of view and has a brand and, and, uh, like it or not. That's, that's, that's critical.Ilyse: (06:02)Beyond that, do you have like a guiding like set of principles that you adhere to maybe even keeps you up at night?Jon: (06:11)It's pretty easy, which is just show up and follow up. It's served me well. The gravity of how you show up and how you follow up changes through the years. But it, in your early in your career, it might just be, Hey, be at meetings, be present, be in the office and follow up. Be the one who you people count on to when you're in a meeting, something happens as you become the, you know, like ACEO of a company. Your show up is more than just being there. Your show up is presence and, and bringing gravitas and bringing trust to a situation, you know, and I think we all can use the positions we have to, to show up and follow up at different levels, but show up and follow up and just keep that advice going.Damian: (06:45)What's interesting about your role as a, as a creative person is that interactivity, and you mentioned you were with the world's biggest brands, including Coca-Cola, Colgate Palm, olive Ford, Microsoft, the US Navy even, and, and Wendy's, you know, can you tell us a little bit more about what makes for a winning brand campaign? You know, obviously that pixie dust is, is part of it,Jon: (07:07)This will sound cliche, but finding that cultural resonance, the cultural relevance, the cultural interaction point that that makes a campaign go from being an announcement or a set of awareness to something that someone can participate in. And I don't just mean content co-creation, but I mean something that enters, enters people's lives and, and becomes part of them and or makes them feel something and take an action. Wendy's is a, is a long time great client, we've worked for 'em for 10 years and Wendy's was always kind of an old fashioned, maybe your grandfather or grandmother's brand, and we said, let's give Wendy a voice. Let's give her some sass invented this idea of, of how much sass Wendy would have, would be different by medium and by channel, but she would always be a little sassy to the point where then online when and on social media, Wendy would start to, to roast people.Jon: (07:52)Meaning kind of take take aim at somebody and not in a, not in a mean hearted way, but this idea of roasting someone. I say all that to say that it became as elaborate as we invented a, a national roast day holiday where then now every brand or a lot of brands around the world then on that day write Wendy and say, roast me. You know, so it might be Aflac saying, Hey, Wendy's roast me, and then Wendy, our, our Twitter will come back with a picture of a, you know, a cooked duck to add to that, that we are, Wendy's is a person, Wendy's is a, there's a name in the name. So we would be remiss not to have some personality, and then we'd be double remiss not to have personality that had some zing to it. So then you establish, okay, here's a place that can be believable. And I think it was also kind of a position that allowed Wendy's to be ageless. You don't know if Wendy's what age she is really, and we could, we could attach a personality that could kind of flex be a little more, a little more SaaS on Twitter, a little friendlier Wendy on Pinterest and everything in between. And it gave us a lot of flexibility. So yeah, it was, it was coming, there was an opportunity space in the market and we just totally filled it and we stayed with it for a decade.Damian: (08:55)How do you sort of like know when you've got your finger on something, how do you stay there? How do you stay relevant? How do you keep up with what's going on in the culture?Jon: (09:05)Oftentimes there's a, there's an interaction with a brand that's unintended or emerges organically. The more brave or the more aware brands are, are tapping into that. You see some of the work for Ford right now in the US is all about being from America and doubling down on America, but the level of volume that they were seeing online, the level of volume they're seeing and the passion out there, that's, that's something we need to not just respond to in social, but but double down into. And I think it's a good example of listening and, and, and kind of taking the cue from the way people are interacting with a brand.Ilyse: (09:36)Um, and obviously you've been in this career for like three decades now. To what extent has the nature of digital media changed anything for, for instance, I know creativity is definitely still premium, but there's such a different cadence to the ad calendar these days. Um, could you talk a little bit about that?Jon: (09:56)Spending time with a brand, entertaining yourself, educating yourself and shopping have all come together into one paradigm for each of us, no matter how the platforms evolve? That's what's the most exciting thing to me. And it's, it's actually how we're trying to build the agency. Because if you think about your own behavior, let's just take Instagram for example. You're, you know, you're, you're going to Instagram probably to entertain yourself. You end up buying something whether you need it or not. You're, you're gonna buy something you've educated your best self about a brand you didn't know. And you've gone deep on a whole new cultural thing that came into your life. You just went there to, to kind of kill time. And I think 20 years ago, my advertising moments were my ad moments, my shopping was my shopping. And I just love, I mean I I I'm sure you both experience this, it's, it's all coming together.Ilyse: (10:36)Why is following consumer behavior in this way connected to building a relevant agency? I know your tagline is all about like connected brands.Jon: (10:46)If you follow that trend, the idea of those things converging, you would build your agency completely different. And so a couple years ago we invested heavily in something that's not in a lot of ad agencies. This is just one example, but deep, deep global commerce and shopping capabilities. And so I, I hope we're doing it the right way, but that investment in an agency, an ad agency is uncommon. The reason we did it is the answer to your question, which was, if the way we're telling a brand story or inviting people to experience a brand is gonna quickly meet the ability, if we do our job on that, we're gonna have somebody wanting to make a commitment to that brand by buying something, joining something subscribing to something. And it's amazing, it took this long for people to realize that if you do a good enough job in your brand communications, you're going to have somebody who wants to, to take an action. So as agencies, I think we should be building in that, that capability. Other agencies may look at a different way, but if it's a quest for relevance, I don't think you can be a relevant agency without the ability to both tell the story and then complete the task of of, of being able to transact.Ilyse: (11:48)What about when it comes to like, streaming and like connected tv? How are you guys looking at that channel?Jon: (11:54)One way that we're really hoping happens is that those channels get way more advanced than they are right now about the way that advertising could be present. So Netflix, you know, would, would now sell a, an advertising model where you can pay a premium amount of money to have advertisement as the advertising agency or the story creators. Where I think we're lacking and we would like to see the biggest progress there is being way more creative with the formats you're able to to, to do. So I, I'm hoping as streamers get more and more into advertising, they're not just plopping 32nd TV formats on the front of, you know, a show you might watch on Netflix or just interrupting it four times throughout the hour for 62nd TV spots. There will be a huge miss. I do think a lot of 'em are going that direction first because it's just the nature of what's easy and convenient. But there will be a streaming platform that will break that up and allow brands to tell stories in a unique way and, and create entertainment on their platforms that lives next to that will be the, the platform that I will love. And that's what we're keeping our eye out for.Ilyse: (12:52)What about, um, when it comes to like shoppable ad formats on streaming, do you feel like there's a future there? I know it's kind of seems to be gaining some speed.Jon: (13:01)I was watching Billions the other day of shows, you know, I dunno if you watch billions or not, but you can actually go in and then see everything. 'cause you know, you liked that show for the, the glamor of all the, the clothes and the, you know, the, the cool settings and then you can kind of go in and see what everything costs that particular character and you're not able to then go buy it yet, but that next step would be able to go buy it or find out. And a lot of the stuff on there is pretty dreamy in terms of price, but as you could do that for things that pro that cost any amount and actually go see what everybody's wearing, this, this exists, it's just not mainstream yet. But I I love that idea. I think it's to where you're, where you're taking that question. I love the, the future there.Damian: (13:36)I'm wondering if there are any themes in advertising that sort of are changing with the culture and the digital culture too. I mean, we've had an important shift, you know, recently with brands marketing with Purpose. I'm kind of very interested in that relationship, you know, the underlying zeitgeist in a way and how that finds its way into ads. Is there anything that you've noticed that we could, we could put our finger on and say that's very nowJon: (13:59)Advertising agencies or brands? The word storyteller gets thrown out really liberally, you know, like it's, it's such a sexy word and it sounds really cool, but often I look at the work of our industry and including our own agency sometimes, and you're not really telling stories sometimes we're not living up to the sexiness of that word. The better brands are starting to, to truly tell story. I mean literally tell stories by creating content and creating entertainment and creating that right balance between, um, being entertained and, and getting across brand principles. And when you do that, you create something entertaining enough to hold a consumer's attention, then you've kind of earned the right to be as purposeful as you're, as you're describing the trend, you almost have to earn your right as a brand to talk about your purpose by creating a, a forum of something gripping and entertaining or, or compelling to then put that purpose through. Because I think purpose without that comes off a little preachy, uh, a little self-serving or a lot self-serving.Damian: (14:55)I I saw a new Kantar study recently that highlighted the importance of humor in advertising and said that after several years of super serious heartfelt purpose-driven ads, humor is making sort of welcome return. How and wise humor such an important brand building tool.Jon: (15:09)I mean, candidly, I, I, first of all, I miss humor. I think that notion is correct. I don't think it's coming back fast enough though. I think the, the industry advertising industry has so many award shows and so many award platforms, and I, I love that it's a chance to get your work out there, creates great work, creates great community, creates great awareness of the great work that agencies are doing. But some of it has gotten a little bit to the point where the best way to grip a, a jury or to grip somebody judging work is to do something that makes you cry or that makes you feel, uh, like you're saving the world. And so the work tends to go that way. It's really powerful, but that just, it just doesn't lend itself to any humor. It's the, the everybody taking themselves so seriously trying to create work that, that saves the world. I'm all for saving the world, but can we have some fun while we're talking about that? And I think, I think award shows in general, I'm not, not talking about anyone in particular need to do a better job of rewarding humor.Ilyse: (16:05)In 2022, you had a near death experience and as you told Adweek, you called it a story of either angels or coincidences. Can you tell us what happened and how it changed you?Jon: (16:20)Really healthy heart, really healthy, um, generally speaking and was running one night and, and basically died for eight or nine minutes without a pulse, uh, because of, um, a real freak show arrhythmia that I'd had for two weeks without knowing it. Just real, nothing hereditary or genetic about me. Just an odd thing, a very rare thing that happens to me. I was running at seven 30 at night on the street where there's not many people, but that particular moment, um, among other people, a uh, cardio doctor drove by. Like, like I told Adweek in that story you're talking about, if you had to write up who would drive by when you were dead with a heart thing, who would you want to drive by? Literally the exact description of who I'd want was this, um, cardio doctor who was, by the way, was coming home two hours early that particular night to see his brother who was in town and happened to be driving by still in his scrubs.Jon: (17:09)It's, it's just awesome that he, that he did that. The coincidence or the angel thing, somewhere in between all that was this guy stopping and not only, not only stopping somebody who stopped and used the skills that they possess, because what I've learned since it's one thing to know CPR, but there's a whole other level of then the bravery that it takes to notice somebody down to go use that CPR you've probably actually never used in your entire life. Put your hands on somebody's chest, crush their sternum, put your mouth on their mouth. It all sounds really good in the textbook. It all sounds good in the class, but somebody actually has to go do that. And then because somebody did that, you know, I'm still here.Ilyse: (17:44)How would you say though, that it has like, changed your life since that incident?Jon: (17:49)If you think about any friendship family member you have, if you just stop right now and thought, what was my last interaction with all them, you know, would it, would it be the right place with every relationship that was important to you? It's probably not, it's probably a fight with this person, probably a, a Matt experience with this person. Probably maybe a, I love you to, to this person, but it would be a mixed bag. Not to be too dramatic, but it really makes you think, man, what if I did die right there that, you know, and my daughter, my third daughter hadn't seen her in two months, or one of my daughters I saw the week before and had the best weekend we've ever had, you know, and everything in between makes me really think every now and I do take a quick inventory about where I am with every relationship and, you know, may maybe it forces you to say something that you wouldn't normally say in a good way or appreciate somebody a little bit more. I have determined it's way more fun to be alive than dead. That's my other takeaway, .Ilyse: (18:37)And that's it for the current podcast. Stay tuned because next time we'll be speaking with Beverly Jackson, the VP of Brand and product marketing at Zillow,Speaker 4: (18:48)Going where our customers are and having a conversation with them in a way that's meaningful to them breaks through and it sort of disrupts the expectations of who we are and what they want from us. The currentDamian: (19:02)Podcast is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by loving caliber. And the current podcast team includes Chris Brookley and Kat Vessey.Ilyse: (19:09)And remember,Jon: (19:10)Never lose in, in all the story and all the facts, you know, never lose the ability to add some pixie dust.Ilyse: (19:16)I'm Ilyse. AndDamian: (19:17)I'm Damian andIlyse: (19:18)We'll see you next time.

Francesca’s VP of marketing Traci Graziani shares what she thinks the future of retail will be, Taylor Swift and Beyoncé’s effect on sales, and how a Dolly Parton quote influences her perspective. Episode Transcript Francesca's, Traci Graziani Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.Damian Fowler: (00:01)I'm Damian Fowler.Ilyse Liffreing: (00:02)And I'm Ilyse LiffreingDamian Fowler: (00:03)And welcome to this edition of the current podcast.Ilyse Liffreing: (00:10)This week we sit down with Traci Graziani, the VP of Marketing and Brand Partnerships at Francesca's, the fashion retailer specializing in women's jewelry and apparel.Damian Fowler: (00:21)Founded in 1999 in Houston, Francesca has grown into a household name with stores across the U.S. But like many mall-based retailers, the company faced serious challenges during the pandemic when foot traffic stopped.Ilyse Liffreing: (00:34)But since 2020, the company has turned its fortunes around becoming a successful omnichannel business.Damian Fowler: (00:41)Tracy joined the company in 2021 after a more than 15 year career in marketing where she specialized in helping brands identify their purpose, craft their story, and deliver successful campaigns.Traci Graziani: (00:58)I grew up in marketing, I grew up in digital advertising and it was a, I was there with a digital marketing firm called Resource for 11 years in my career. They were an independent women owned agency who was talking about being customer obsessed before anyone else. But I started by answering the phones and getting the flowers and just like learning and absorbing. And so I just fell in love from the beginning. I, I worked with a handful of clients over the years. You name a client or an industry, I've probably worked on that account from a communications or a marketing standpoint and ultimately that's what got me brand side. Damian Fowler: (01:39)I love that it's very entrepreneurial view from the very beginning, from the get go as you would say. And you know, one of your sort of specialties as a marketer is that ability to help brands identify their purpose and craft their story. What's your sort of dynamic when you start that whole process?Traci Graziani: (01:55)Can I quote Dolly Parton who's behind me here on the wall? Damian Fowler: (01:59)Oh yes. Please.Ilyse Liffreing:Yes you can.Traci Graziani: (01:59)Okay. She says Find out who you are and do it on purpose. And I believe that as a human and I believe that as a marketer. And so I think that's really what's carried me through and I think that one of my biggest beliefs is that one of the key KPIs that we all need to be looking at and continue to look at is trust. I mean I think it is more prevalent now than ever is trust with our customer in every interaction. Knowing that why and knowing that trust is so critical. Without it you have nothing that becomes your compass. Damian Fowler: (02:33)Yeah. Now, you joined Francesca's in 2021, you know, let me ask you about their story. What is Francesca's story? Yeah,Traci Graziani: (02:42)Francesca's actually started as one single boutique in Houston, Texas. And our girl Fran has been around since 1999. I think what's really neat and differentiating about it is that it has always been a place of discovery in this one boutique. It started as a collection of different, you know, products that service a very, you know, woman from 18 to 30 as like the core demographic and someone who's always looking for that like kind of something special. We know that we have an occasion shopper and so we cater to that and so that heritage of the brand from the late nineties all the way through has maintained and that is really the platform that we operate now that has turned into our free to Be You platform, which is this idea that our customer and our brand are always looking to discover new things. I mean, Elise, you love the store you go in, you kind of can't walk outta there without something. Um, but you never know what you're gonna find and I think that that has really been a core differentiator for the brand.Ilyse Liffreing: (03:44)Yeah, I mean there's no doubt I fall into that core consumer that 18 to 35, not gonna say my exact age, but yeah, every time I go home, you know, I, I have to go to Francesca's, definitely a fan. It's true, I can't hide that. But can you share any like insights into your target audience? Beyond me of course and how the brand actually like works to like reach and engage them?Traci Graziani: (04:08)We recently, within the last year, really did our homework and we surveyed current customers, non-customers and we have really utilized that in a massive way across the organization because I think a differentiator for us too is our ability to move so quickly with our product. And so being able to understand what the customer is looking for and what she's doing in her life, we really look at it as a psychographic more so even than a demographic. We know the sweet spot in terms of the 24 year old, but we know we scaled down our earrings are a great entryway into the brand and we know our gift selection also allows us to scale up in demo. I keep mentioning occasion because it matters, but she's finding small things to be occasion, whether it's you know, a barbecue or a trip or even just going to a friend's house. She's always looking for like that something special and new. And so we really create our marketing and our product to make sure that we're serving that across the yearIlyse Liffreing: (05:05)Now. So Francesca's also has a real culture of inclusivity. You guys have the whole Free To Be You campaign. When did that come about and was it under CEO Andrew Clark?Traci Graziani: (05:16)Yes, it was, you know, when he joined I, I joined pretty shortly after that and we really were working as a full leadership team on defining, you know, our mission vision values and developing that brand house and what was that greater why and we really did come to that purpose of inspiring Discovery and through that uniting everyone in individuality which comes across in our boutiques in the merchandise assortment that we have, the way that we buy. And I think that that whole idea of Free to Be You, he is definitely a champion for, and I think that has really set us apart in the space. Francesca's also actually means free one the word the name defined. And so there was something core back to that history of who the brand was and where they started that really felt synergistic across everything we're, I think it's 97% of the organization is women and the bulk of that is the field who is our customer and they are just incredible. And so they're another great place in terms of how we define free to be you listening to them, what's happening in their local markets and really utilizing the field and those great associates as a whole nother way to gather customer insights.Ilyse Liffreing: (06:32)That comes with like a lot of learnings. As you mentioned, you've recently even launched a tween collection called Frankie. How is that perceived by the Francesca's audienceTraci Graziani: (06:42)That brand was conceived just a couple years ago and really as an opportunity in a white space in the market? I ironically when Justice sold to Walmart and I actually came from Justice as my previous role and so you know, we had a lot of great leadership on the team that was familiar with that demographic and knowing that that tween demo is shopper is just shy of our Francesca's shopper. So we really saw the opportunity to utilize what we have, right? The customer told us that we needed to shift, that they needed something unique for themselves, that they wanted a little bit more comfortable and cool. And so we have pivoted and it's really exciting. We've just rebranded and launched as Hello Frankie and really excited to create that conversation and that dialogue with the customer.Ilyse Liffreing: (07:28)How does Francesca's leverage those customer data and insights to then enhance its campaigns? From what I hear, it's pretty quick turnarounds.Traci Graziani: (07:38)First. I think listening to the customer reading and reacting to the product that's working and product that's not too right and testing and learning is a big philosophy. This idea of speed and how quickly can we react? Like a lot of other retailers, we saw the Taylor Swift effect happening very quickly, literally everywhere she was traveling, the weeks leading up to that concert we would see a lift in sales in our boutiques. The same actually happened with Beyonce. And so the team was able to pivot really quickly, pull together what we called the B edit. We did that from pulling together a host of existing items but also chasing into product. And then the other is in just marketing, right? Like our Fran Club that is has been a wealth of data for us, increasing the lifetime value of those customers. They shop more often when they buy, they buy more. That is a new program, newer program for the brand that really has been instrumental in, you know, helping us even understand where we show up in the media and marketing space in terms of those are the best customers and we want more of 'em. Damian Fowler: (08:44)Tell me a little bit more about the Fran Club. When did you create that? And I mean I know a lot of retailers have loyalty programs, but what's the sort of unique spin on that loyalty program with the Fran Club.Traci Graziani: (08:55)We knew we needed the program, right? We needed the first party data, we needed to make sure that we were capturing that, you know, we have 460 boutiques across the nation and the ability to capture that information, be able to reward our customers and really increase their visits and their purchase through that communication was key. So that has been tremendous. It's a points program so the more you shop, the more you're rewarded. But there's, you know, other perks like early access being the first to know about things like the B edit . After we had those first learnings in the early fall holiday season, you know, we knew we needed to come back around and expand that program, right? We needed to create more awareness around that program. It was giving us the signs and performing in terms of financial and feedback that was so positive.Traci Graziani: (09:41)So we actually launched a campaign via CTV, uh, campaign as the hero kind of tent pole piece. And what we did is the campaign was about joining the Fran club and being whoever you are, right, free to be you is this idea of exclusive but inclusive. And so what we did is we actually had a party, we threw a Fran Club event on a rooftop in one of our best markets in Miami and we invited Fran Club members and creators and so we were rewarding them through in real life, but then we actually filmed it and turned that into the spot that then really showcases and plays back, this is the customer and we, we want you to come like be part of this club. And that campaign was incredibly successful and we actually have another friend club event coming up in Austin in a new store in a few weeks. So,Ilyse Liffreing: (10:29)And am I wrong in thinking that that was your first time leveraging CTV?Traci Graziani: (10:34)We had done a test um, once before, but not to the scale that we did for the spring.Ilyse Liffreing: (10:39)Is that channel also strategic due to the fact that Francesca's has a lot of locations sprinkled across the U.S.?Traci Graziani: (10:48)Absolutely, yeah. I mean, driving store traffic is a huge lever for our business. We need to do that and we have to do that in creative ways. And so CTV is certainly one of those more top funnel, but that is fueling both boutique traffic as well as digital.Damian Fowler: (11:03)What I'm sort of hearing from you a little bit is, you know, there's a very democratic process here to this sort of circuit as it were of marketing. It's not like you are coming up with these big campaigns. It's like you're using your customer's insights and sharing everything back and it is a sort of virtuous circle or virtuous cycle of kind of marketing that that's interesting.Traci Graziani: (11:24)I love that you gathered that from that. Yeah, I think that's where it's going. That's what we're seeing. I mean I think as marketers it's like the hardest job, right? I mean it's always changing. I think if we think we know something , um, we should guess again and stay curious and learn. And I do think that the world today with digital and social allows us to do that. As long as we are going back to who we are and the trust and that we're building that trust with our customer, I, I want them in the conversation. Without the customer we're nothing. And so how we can work with them, pull them into the campaigns, get the feedback, showcase their content, that's where I think we're seeing success and I hope we can build more of that.Ilyse Liffreing: (12:08)Speaking of fandom, you also have a pretty unique ambassador program. Could you explain how that works a little bit?Traci Graziani: (12:15)Again, back to our best customer, it's a longer term relationship with more micro creators. It's this idea of, I can't claim this quote, but I leverage it a lot, the riches in the niches. And I really believe that, I think that's where fandom starts is in these unique communities. And if you can tap into those audiences and then find more, that's where you win. And that's really what the ambassador program has done for us. It started with about 30 creators and you know, it is more of a white glove where we're really creating direct one-on-one relationships with them, understanding what's going on in their life, if, if they have a bridal shower or whatnot, right? How are we there for them? And then they're creating content with us and for us and then we're sharing that back and celebrating that relationship. We have seen fantastic results. That program and the content that they're creating and posting on their own channels is certainly delivering. And so we are on the move to expand that program in some exciting new ways through some affiliate and different models. SoIlyse Liffreing: (13:16)You also lean into your employees for that program? Traci Graziani: (13:20)We do. Like I mentioned, our field is, is our customer. And so the more we listen to them, they're amazing. They're already doing it. They're already loving the brand and they should be rewarded for that. They're some of our best loyal customers as well. SoDamian Fowler: (13:33)You mentioned at the very beginning the importance of trust around a brand. And one of the issues that comes up in the, in the world of digital media is trust and people sharing their data clearly, you know, you have an audience of people who trust the brand. How do you keep that trust going? How is it maintained every day?Traci Graziani: (13:51)That is a constant, constantly working on that takes the entire organization, it takes the great leadership that we have across the board. It takes constantly looking at the customer experience and every touch point. And we still have work to do. I, I think any brand that says that it was done would be would be lying. Um, and the world is changing so quickly and technology is changing so quickly and social is changing, making changes in that and the customer is making changes in that. It's just coming back to that and asking yourself those questions. Where might we be falling down and how can we find solutions that are making it better for our customer? Because if we disappoint them at any touchpoint in the funnel or in the experience, that's where the trust is last. They have so many other options, you know, they can go other places. And so it's that combination of trust with our differentiated product that I think will continue to set us apart.Damian Fowler: (14:49)You know, the company faced like many retail companies during the pandemic tough times and even faced chapter 11 proceedings, but since then it's turned its fortunes around under the leadership of CEO Andrew Clark and definitely changed its model to become much more successful omni-channel businessTraci Graziani: (15:08)I think. Absolutely. You know, there was, there's tough times. There's a real straight strategy at play there and you know, he came in and I think he was in the seat for 10 days and then Covid hit.Damian Fowler: (15:18)Yeah, poor guyTraci Graziani: (15:20)On top of that . And so it's been a pretty, it's been a pretty incredible story just in terms of, you know, the success over the last couple of years. Our ability to come back to listen to the customer and to really lean omnichannel.Ilyse Liffreing: (15:35)Last question. So Francesca's has become more and more omnichannel basically through the years. How do you see the future of retail evolving and what strategies are in place to adapt to these upcoming changes?Traci Graziani: (15:49)I think I'm gonna be a broken record for this podcast, . I think the future of retail is the customer, the work of the work of marketer and of a brand is trying to influence people's attention and their behaviors. And I think that that there is no certainty in that. It is not a sure thing. And so you have to always be listening and be curious and be willing to test and learn. And that means being obsessed with the customer and pivoting when they're telling you to pivot. Yeah, for me, well I'll go back to Dolly, you know, be who you are and do it on purpose. We've got a really awesome team here and I think that as long as we listen and move fast and stay curious, then we'll be set up for the future of what retail looks like because we're listening to what the customer has to say.Ilyse Liffreing: (16:43)And that's it for The Current. Stay tuned because next time we'll be speaking with John Cook, the global CEO of VMLY&R.Damian Fowler: (17:08)The Current is produced by Wonder Media Network. Our theme is by loving caliber and the current team includes Chris Brooklier and Kat Vesce.Ilyse Liffreing: (17:16)And remember,Traci Graziani: (17:17)As marketers, if we think we know something , um, we should guess again and stay curious.Ilyse Liffreing: (17:23)I'm IlyseDamian Fowler: (17:24)And I'm DamianIlyse Liffreing: (17:25)And we'll see you next time.

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