On the podcast we talk with Osman about Duolingo’s culture of experimentation, data and testing as a moat, and why passive aggressive push notifications actually work in the right context.Top Takeaways🧪 Leverage a culture of experimentation to create a top user experience📊 Data and testing are Duolingo’s best moat👍 Passive-aggressive push notifications might work in the right contextAbout Osman Mansur👨‍💻 Product Manager (PM) at Duolingo, the global language learning app with close to 60 million active users.💪 As PM on the retention team, Osman plays a key role in maximizing user engagement and retention through specific mechanics, with a dedicated testing and experimentation regimen.💡 “Just by the sheer amount of data that we collect, we're really able to drill down and optimize a lot of things on the app. And it keeps us busy as a product team, because there's so much stuff that we know we can improve.”👋  LinkedIn | MediumLinks & Resources‣ Duolingo’s findings on notifications (Twitter thread)‣ Duolingo’s findings on streak rewards (Twitter thread) ‣ How does Duo decide what message to send? The secret is in the AI! ‣ The habit-building research behind your Duolingo streak ‣ Join the Duolingo teamFollow us on Twitter‣ David Barnard‣ Jacob Eiting‣ RevenueCat‣ Sub ClubEpisode Highlights[2:08] Test everything: Osman explains how the data Duolingo collects and analyzes is one of the company’s best moats.[5:26] Ideation generation: Sometimes the bottom-up approach works best for driving team roadmaps, but iteration and experimentation is at the heart of Duolingo’s testing process.[11:02] Cooperation, working together: At Duolingo, teams share what they’ve learned with each other to create a better product, but they also cross over on analysis and experimentation.[17:48] Looking back: To track long-term impact, Duolingo uses holdout experiments and looks at feature-level metrics via dashboards[25:34] Notifications 101: Osman explains how a big driver of retention and company growth has been its notification strategy, learning a lot about what does and doesn’t work along the way.[33:35] Let’s get creative: The secret to impactful retentive notifications is getting the tone right, and even conversing with users. Sterile voices don’t work — opinionated voices just might.[37:30] Keep it simple: Messaging and theme matters for notifications, and so does copy length. Reduce cognitive load to increase willingness to engage. But once you’re in the app, you can get more complex for engaged users.[40:10] Emoji titles: Osman’s team discovered that emojis are actually better in the title than in the body. Why it’s an attention grabber is still a mystery.[41:53] Falling flat: Not every experiment works, but there are still great lessons to learn. The tone of an organic character works better than a brand talking to users like marketers.[46:33] Keeping the streak going: The streak is one of the best Duolingo retention mechanics, Osman explains. He dives into how the company tinkered with it to prevent domino effect user drop offs, and how the streak widget works in iOS.

On the podcast we talk with John about the far reaching implications of the European Union’s Digital Markets Act, how app developers should be thinking about the opportunities created, and why Apple making so much money from the App Store might be bad for Apple long-term.Top Takeaways⚖️ The EC’s DMA is set to shake things up in a big way — but how isn’t completely clear🪟 Don’t panic, app developers — the DMA creates opportunities, too🤑 The profitability of the App Store might not be good for Apple in the long-termAbout John Gruber👨‍💻 John runs Daring Fireball, is host of The Talk Show podcast, and co-hosts the Dithering podcast.💡 “One of the rules in the App Store is that you cannot explain the rules of the App Store in your app.”👋  TwitterLinks & Resources‣ Mark Gurman’s article on how Apple is responding to the EU’s DMA‣ If a Third-Party App Store Falls in the Forest and No One Uses It, Does It Make a Sound?‣ Check out Daring Fireball‣ The Dithering podcast‣ The Talk ShowFollow us on Twitter‣ David Barnard‣ Jacob Eiting‣ RevenueCat‣ Sub ClubEpisode Highlights[2:03] Get ready: The European Commission’s 100-page Digital Markets Act is going to seriously shake things up in a major bid to regulate big tech. But what is it, what does it mean, and who does it apply to?[11:00] Keeping it cordial: Apple’s relationship with the Japan Fair Trade Commission during similar legislation was respectful. It’s not clear the same can be said of their dealings with the EU.[13:24] The ABCs of USB: Whatever your feelings on legal mandates for USB ports, at least it’s clear. Not so with the DMA, John argues.[18:14] We don’t care: John believes that the EC’s priorities aren’t aligned with developers or consumers. There are lessons from the Dutch case of dating apps with a huge 27% commission charged by Apple, as well as constraints on Netflix selling inside the app.[24:26] Payment processing vs. licensing: 30% is a very expensive payment processing fee. But Apple views it as a licensing fee — a privilege to run your software on their system.[38:07] The eye of the apple: Will Apple soften up or is it just money-grabbing? Apps have morphed as Apple didn’t realize how popular the iPhone could become, and App Store commission is a large part of its current growth.[44:37] Multiplatform allure: If Apple is seen as an untrustworthy partner with poor App Store management, developers might want to develop across different platforms and avoid relying solely on Apple — even if its exclusive apps have typically been the most successful.[51:21] What gives, Google?: Despite being allowed, there’s a mystery around why sideloading and third-party app stores never really took off with Android. (Hint: They can’t reach mass adoption.)[58:26] The two big turning points: The DMA makes clear that within the app, apps can talk about outside payments, which means Apple now has to compete with web payments. Can Apple charge its commission on sideloaded apps and/or 3rd party app stores?[1:01:08] Global continuity: Even a fully enforced DMA isn’t existential for Apple. The question of when they’re going to do right by the platform is up for debate.

On the podcast I talk with Dan about how to design experiments that answer the right questions, common A/B testing pitfalls to avoid, and how a simple checklist might just save your complex experiment.Top Takeaways🍞 Conclusions from tests sometimes go stale faster than you realize👌 Minimizing the cost of running tests will improve decision making🤪 Check your sanity — or don’t live and die by statistical significanceAbout Dan Pannasch👨‍💻 Senior Product Manager at RevenueCat💪 Dan saw what experimentation looked like across a portfolio of app businesses when his previous company TelTech’s success led to an acquisition by IAC. He joined RevenueCat in May 2022 and leads the Experiments project.💡 “You could change the color [of the buy button in A/B testing and] release it in the new application. And if you can't tell which one won [with users], then you learned that it doesn't matter. You didn't learn which one won, but you did learn that it doesn't matter for you right now.”👋 Twitter | LinkedInLinks & Resources‣ Join the RevenueCat team‣ Sub Club interview with Blinkist’s Jaycee Day‣ RevenueCat’s Experiments toolFollow us on Twitter‣ David Barnard‣ Jacob Eiting‣ RevenueCat‣ Sub ClubEpisode Highlights[2:18] Experimentation: What is app experimentation and why should you do it? The right decision making, considering impact on variables, and risk mitigation are everything when it comes to user experience.[9:04] Taking a page from DuoLingo’s playbook: Product strategy and intuition naturally limits possibilities — and it’s not the place for A/B testing. Microdecisions within deliverables are testable, and then it’s just cost-benefit analyses. [14:04] The early days: The cost-benefit analysis should pervade every stage of the process, from early growth and beyond. Trying to design the perfect A/B test isn’t always possible when customers are begging you for.[19:20] Paywall plays: Where you put the paywall is a tough decision. But there are strategies for implementation and risk mitigation.[24:35] Testing 101: Be sure to write down the hypothesis before testing so that you can measure impact. Unexpected results — where you learn the most about variables — depend on it.[28:05] Follow it up: Dan shares his thoughts on user follow ups to boost quantitative data with qualitative data. Sometimes talking to users can be very powerful.[31:13] Sanity check: How to do a testing plan, as done by Dan during his time as a PM at TelTech. Plus, an explanation of statistical significance.[39:53] Impact and intuition: To understand user experience impact and product intuition, it’s critical to ensure the design aligns with the value proposition.[42:22] Actual testing: There are pitfalls and screw-ups to watch out for when testing (and even before).[46:33] Analyzing the results: Dan provides his overview for analyzing the results after running the experiment. Second and third order effects are important but not always immediately obvious. [48:41] The Experiments product: RevenueCat’s new tool enables easy A/B testing for two offerings. The data helps you analyze the full subscription lifecycle to understand which variant is producing more value for your business.[55:55] Bugs: No product will ever be perfect, but Experiments offers app developers the tools and confidence to make sure it’s at least most of the way there.

On the podcast I talk with Melissa and Félix about why more apps should be more than just apps, the benefits of a hard paywall, and why a lower price might actually make you more money even if the A/B test shows it didn’t.Top Takeaways📱 More apps should be more than just apps💳 Hard paywalls can (and do) sometimes pay off💵 How a price change can lead to big returns — if the quality is thereAbout Melissa Cash & Félix Boudreau👨‍💻 Melissa is Co-Founder and CEO and Félix is Head of Growth at Pok Pok💪 Their first app, Pok Pok Playroom, is an Apple Design Award-winning preschool app that sparks creativity and imagination through open-ended play💡 “It's important to think about your updates from a content and subscription value point of view, but also from a marketing point of view, and really try to balance those narratives.” — Melissa👋 Melissa on LinkedIn | Melissa on Twitter | Félix on LinkedIn Links & Resources‣ Pok Pok Playroom‣ Watch the app trailer on YouTube‣ A mother's entrepreneurial inspiration ‣ Melissa on The Mom Halo podcast ‣ The Apple Design Award Story ‣ Melissa on the Snippets of Genius podcast Follow us on Twitter‣ David Barnard‣ Jacob Eiting‣ RevenueCat‣ Sub ClubEpisode Highlights[1:40] Empowered play: What could it look like to equip and educate today’s children to think for themselves? Melissa shares the story of how her co-founders wanted to empower creative, independent play for their young son in a digital space.[6:16] More than an app: There’s a much broader vision for Pok Pok in the works. Starting digital in a digital era gives the app a head start against business models that have been adapted to become digital.[10:47] Investing in the future: The team at Pok Pok places a “hive mind” focus on the long-term strategy of the brand. They aim to earn the trust of parents (as well as their kids) for the best possible customer experience.[13:15] You are the prototype: What did it take to build Pok Pok into an award-winning, successful app? Melissa shares about their robust testing and prototyping process.[16:57] The data tracks: Félix talks about how to balance the protection of qualitative and quantitative data while getting the most out of what you can safely track and collect. They use intrinsic motivation to keep kids playing in healthy ways — a win-win-win for everyone.[24:19] The monetization conversation: Creating an app that keeps evolving was the key to recurring revenue. Continual content with real value creation — for the parent as much as for the child — was the way forward.[27:06] Easy lessons from a hard paywall: Testing the hard paywall took a lot of tinkering — resulting in some unintended (but welcome) consequences in user behavior. Now, there’s a video paywall in the pipeline.[40:19] The price is right: Félix and Melissa discuss how to find the sweet spot with price testing that enables solid paid acquisition and LTV. Ultimately, doubling the price led to double the revenue.[46:18] The power of storytelling: Subscription app entrepreneurs should learn how to tell good stories. Melissa and Félix share their wisdom about creating compelling stories in business and networking, as well as the importance of great in-app events.

On the podcast we talk with Jaycee about how Blinkist increased trial starts by 23%, how to balance user experience with business objectives, and why telling people how to cancel can actually lead to fewer cancellations.Top Takeaways⚖️ Balancing ethics and business means making tough decisions, but taking a smart approach lets you master both🤝 Helping people unsubscribe isn’t the most intuitive thing for subscription app businesses, but ethical design patterns might be better for business in the long run🔎 Transparency around the cancellation process can drive app success in multiple waysAbout Jaycee Day👨‍💻 Senior Product Designer at developer platform GitHub and previously at Blinkist💪 Jaycee facilitated a sign-up increase of 23% following customer service complaints (which also dropped by 55%) at Blinkist. Even Apple took notice of her ethical design pattern💡 “It's because of the transparency and the trust. … People have been burned so many times through other apps that it benefited us. … [Users thought,] Finally, an app that I can trust — they know how I feel, and they're listening. That was just super important: Letting people know that they can cancel [and that] they don't have to be scared of us.”👋 Jaycee Day | LinkedIn | Twitter | Medium | GitHubLinks & Resources‣ The story of Blinkist's 23% Conversion‣ Ethical design pattern at AppleFollow us on Twitter‣ David Barnard‣ Jacob Eiting‣ RevenueCat‣ Sub ClubEpisode Highlights[1:47] Origin story: From founding to freelancing, Jaycee helped transform Blinkist in under three years.[3:52] Internet fame: The ethical design pattern Jaycee helped evolve offers subscription apps the ability to understand the product discovery process in a different light. She talks about its inception at Blinkist.[9:05] Zombie subscribers: The balance between business and ethics isn’t always easy to strike. Jaycee explains how customer empathy helped with product design.[11:51] The first pitch: The early stages of ethical design and the goal of reducing customer complaints initially came from trial reminder testing. The reminders had the unintended positive consequence of increasing push notifications.[16:29] The big rollout: With things on the up and up for Jaycee and her team, they built an A/B test prototype with “overwhelmingly positive” results.[20:47] You can stop complaining now: A 55% drop in customer complaints wasn’t just theory. Why did it work so well?[24:03] Mission unsubscription: It may not be the most intuitive thing for subscription apps to help people who don’t want to be subscribed to unsubscribe. But this effort brings indirect benefits like reducing cancellations and increasing trial sign-up rates.[27:21] Retain and engage: Jaycee discusses how Blinkist was limited in its tracking capacities, but it used some unconventional markers to establish that the efforts were working.[31:10] The biggest subscription app article of the year: Promoting principles via the user experience community brings more attention and business success.[33:48] The aftermath: People care about the ethics of user experience as well as the business side. Jaycee discusses the major ripple effect of the ethical design she spearheaded: Case in point, Apple features it on their website.

On the podcast we talk with Eric about the largest consumer marketplace that’s ever existed, the growing exit opportunities for Consumer Subscription Software businesses, and why the CSS industry may be relatively recession-proof.Top Takeaways👀 Simply occupying eyeballs isn’t the game plan anymore💰The CSS space could be recession-proof👴 The data and tooling landscape has matured, making it easier to build and grow subscription businessesAbout Eric Crowley👔 Partner at GP Bullhound, a global technology investment and advisory firm for entrepreneurs and founders👨‍💻 Coming from an executive software startup background, Eric primarily focuses on M&A, capital raises, and advisory transactions at the firm💡  “If the entire focus of your team is adding value and not just making sure information flows from stack one to stack two, you're going to build a better business, because you're out there listening to your customer [and] watching them use your service”👋  LinkedIn and TwitterLinks & Resources‣ Check out the Consumer Subscription Software (CSS) 2022 report‣ GP BullhoundFollow us on Twitter‣ David Barnard‣ Jacob Eiting‣ RevenueCat‣ Sub ClubEpisode Highlights[1:58] Mind-blowing CSS report insights: Apps are instantly downloadable and purchases are immediate for 5 billion people around the world.[5:10] What the internet was meant to be: Apple is the new cross-border cash clearing house, and apps are leveraging some of the most advanced technology we have today.[7:39] The end of apps?: There’s a reason to be bullish on the subscription business model. David explains why.[10:52] Record-breaking non-game app revenue: For the first time in 2022, people are spending more on apps other than gaming.[13:27] Having fun with luxury goods: With a downturn on the horizon, will in-app purchases take a hit? Why spend money on Candy Crush when you can still have fun for free? GP Bullhound sees CSS businesses as “enhancements at an affordable price.”[20:09] Where’s the value?: During a recession, the bar for added value increases. Where does that leave subscription services? If it makes you better at your job (like Grammarly does for Eric), it’s a winner.[21:40] On bankers hating averages: Eric talks overvaluations, undervaluations, and the sturdy infrastructure of the industry. (Hint: DuoLingo, Dropbox, and Bumble will be here in five years.)[28:22] Cashing in on subscriptions: The cash efficiency of the consumer subscription model is finally beginning to show. Eric highlights that CSS entrepreneurs are gold miners, with plenty of companies selling them shovels and pickaxes.[35:13] Exit stage right: From PE firms to small investors, opportunities to exit apps are many. Eric explains what that looks like for brands, consumers, and founders.[40:38] Philosophy of selling: Eric sets out the thought process founders go through and the questions they should answer before moving ahead with a sale.

On the podcast we talk with Andrew about the journey to cash flow positive for Elevate Labs, the importance of creative, and why spending less money can sometimes be the key to figuring out paid user acquisition.Top Takeaways📈 The journey to cash flow positive is a long one, demanding tough decisions along the way💵 Spending less money can sometimes be the key to figuring out paid user acquisition🎨 Control and collaboration are key elements of a creative cultureAbout Andrew Maguire⚙️ Chief Operating Officer at Elevate Labs and Managing Partner at Volo Ventures💪 Andrew saw Elevate move from rolling back on ad spend in order to survive, to becoming cash flow positive with record growth in 2022.💡 “How do you have values that are not just the poster on the wall that no one cares about, but are actually lived in the organization?”👋  LinkedIn and TwitterLinks & Resources‣ Join the Elevate Labs team‣ Connect with Andrew on Linkedin‣ Follow Andrew on Twitter‣ Volo Ventures ‣ Elevate App ‣ Balance App Follow us on Twitter‣ David Barnard‣ Jacob Eiting‣ RevenueCat‣ Sub ClubEpisode Highlights[1:46] Inspirational investment: Making waves at Elevate, Volo Ventures invested in RevenueCat based on Jacob’s juice for building a big company and solving real problems.[6:48] Early elevation: The duality of Volo Ventures and Elevate gives Andrew insight to create great apps while investing at the same time.[10:25] Living organizational values: An ongoing commitment to incorporate company mission into every aspect of work — from hiring to recognition and performance — is what makes a company really stand out.[13:25] Pay to play: You need to spend money to make money. Jacob and Andrew discuss getting a handle on LTV, plowing money into advertising, the subscription model, and trials.[19:20] The slow degradation of ATT: It’s not an overnight thing, but Elevate still took a hammering.[21:26] Circling the wagons: Andrew talks about the experiments they ran, what worked, and what failed, including pulling back ad spend.[24:32] The importance of creative and the power of ads: Everyone taking responsibility for the quality of the product builds a culture of creativity with ideas coming from all angles.[33:22] Blending acquisition costs: When you’re building a second app, you can leverage the customers you already have for the old one to build an even better product. And sometimes free giveaways can scale ad spend in asymmetric ways.[40:25] Becoming a “real business”: Hitting cash flow positive feels really good. Andrew found that focusing on being lean and scrappy allowed them to scale the business without having to raise more capital.[46:13] The Volo connection: Andrew, David, and Jacob discuss what’s happening at Volo Ventures.

On the podcast we talk with Adam about when and why to use an MMP, which subscription events to track in your analytics, and why A/B testing doesn’t always work the way you think it works.Top Takeaways📏 Understand what your users are doing to help define — and then achieve — your goal📈 Spreadsheets are a great start, but growing sophistication requires something more long-term🔧 Turning events into actions is difficult but necessaryAbout Adam Landis👨‍💻 Founder and CEO at AdLibertas💪 Adam has helped hundreds of apps — including Crossy Road, Temple Run and Audio Mac — influence user behavior through data collection and analysis.💡 “How do you make sense of all this data that's coming out of the app? How do you understand what users are doing? What is the impact? And then what is the outcome of the changes you make?”👋 LinkedIn | AdLibertasLinks & Resources‣ Learn more about AdLibertas‣ Read AdLibertas updates from Adam‣ Follow AdLibertas on LinkedinFollow us on Twitter‣ David Barnard‣ Jacob Eiting‣ RevenueCat‣ Sub ClubEpisode Highlights[1:44] The OG of apps: At the genesis of the App Store, Google and Apple fought over ads — and that’s when Adam got started. AdLibertas was born just a few years later out of the need to understand the data coming from users.[6:34] The progression of data sophistication: Brand new app developers are hungry for thousands of data points. But are those really necessary at the beginning? Adam dives into startups getting to 1.0, understanding product market fit and balancing product versus infrastructure.[9:39] View from the data stack: Adam talks about minimum viability and the importance of understanding what your users are doing before anything else.[15:27] Every app is unique, but data speaks uniformly: How do you do deep, complex analysis early? Adam offers a smart strategy on what metrics apps should track to garner the most valuable insights.[24:16] Blending freemium and subscription is an art: Getting sophisticated and buying users means understanding their long-term value and the real sources of ROI.[25:57] The essential MMP stack: Adam and David discuss the when, what and how of MMPs.[31:56] SKANing: It’s the mess that no one wants to talk about. But don’t worry: It’s okay not to understand because no one knows what’s going on.[34:36] All praise to A/B testing: When it comes to A/B tests, losing can be better than winning. Adam explains that the proper way to test is to set the boundary before the test and not look at the data during testing.[40:05] CRM campaigning: Adam and David talk about getting the most out of CRMs in terms of retention and re-engagement.[47:13] In with the old, in with the new: Do you focus more on product or marketing? It depends on how big you are.

On the podcast we talk with Emmanuel about the magic of affiliate marketing, how to best use Stripe payments, and why you should probably build a web app before you build a native one.Top Takeaways✉️ Don’t skip user registration — and do it early in onboarding💰 The road to subscription revenue isn’t a straight one📈 The little things add up over timeAbout Emmanuel Crouvisier👨‍💻 Founder at CardPointers, an app that makes it easy to optimize credit card rewards and has saved users over $200M.💪 Emmanuel used affiliate marketing and a revenue share model to increase user retention, simultaneously rewarding loyalty and content creator talent.💡 “Keep your costs really low. […] The companies that have been in this space before never last more than two years because they need a team of [up to] 30 people to run everything. Whereas [with CardPointers], it's just me, and my costs are literally hundreds of dollars per month — so it makes it easy for me to make a good business out of it.”👋  Twitter | LinkedInLinks & Resources‣ CardPointers on the App Store‣ CardPointers on Twitter‣ Special Offer for Sub Club listenersFollow us on Twitter‣ David Barnard‣ Jacob Eiting‣ RevenueCat‣ Sub ClubEpisode Highlights[1:42] Building inspiration: Emmanuel discusses what inspired him to found CardPointers, getting turned on to the world of credit card rewards and realizing just how much revenue subscription apps can bring.[7:21] Exhausting side hustle: Early on, CardPointers was an evenings and weekends-based project, applying smart strategies combined with persistent tinkering.[11:15] Decisions, decisions: Emmanuel explains the decision he made in the early building phase, as well as his lucky break with Apple iOS 13 and watchOS 6.[17:30] Same system, same project: Emmanuel discusses the benefits of a backwards compatible API with proper user accounts created from the get-go, reducing sign-up friction.[19:47] The affiliate backdoor: On launch, he didn’t have any partnership links set up and he wasn’t getting anywhere by going through official channels. He got better results by reaching out to people through LinkedIn. [23:26] $1,000 a month sounds cool: Though he was making progress with affiliate revenue, it’s not all easy and there are a lot of rules around compliance. This made a subscription model more attractive, and led Emmanuel to devise the pro tier for paying users.[27:22] Understanding employers: It can be nerve-wracking to quit your day job. Emmanuel talks about how he managed the transition. He lucked out because his employer was supportive, too.[31:52] Blow-up business: Emmanuel talks about how his current roadmap really shifted the trajectory of the business, including imminent plans in the pipeline.[35:23] Big-time consumer: Studying up before — and during — the startup phase is crucial for unlocking your app’s real potential. Emmanuel learned (and continues to learn) from an array of sources including webinars and Twitter communities.[42:40] Influencing the market: So many apps need to find the kind of product-channel fit CardPointers has in terms of influencer and affiliate marketing. Emmanuel explains how it took off as a channel that worked for him.

On the podcast I talk with Darrell about going from zero to an 8-figure ARR in just 18 months, building a product improvement loop combining user research and A/B testing, and why expecting failure is one of the keys to success.Top Takeaways📈 Going from 0 to an 8-figure ARR in 18 months is doable🙈 Sharing and selling data isn’t necessary to build and scale subscription apps🎰 Structuring product development as a “bet” liberates you from needing to be rightAbout Darrell Stone👨‍💻 Head of Product & Design at Citizen, the number one public safety app in the U.S.💪 Darrell defined and scaled Citizen's consumer subscription product with a dual focus on acquisition and retentive, life-saving features.💡 “Product [development] in consumer tech is very much a team sport. You have to approach it through the mindset that you're building a team that's going to win a thing.”👋  LinkedIn and TwitterLinks & Resources‣ Citizen App‣ Citizen’s Career Page Follow us on Twitter‣ David Barnard‣ Jacob Eiting‣ RevenueCat‣ Sub ClubEpisode Highlights[2:03] Leaving Uber to scale a startup: Darrell discusses the reasons why he left Uber to start a subscription app.[5:20] Making the world a safer place: Citizen is a “moderated safety app.” It has more than 100 people actively listening to police scanners to enable provide real-time information about what is happening in communities.[10:57] Charging for a public safety app: Darrell discusses the tension between monetization and Citizen’s mission of keeping people safe. He outlines the difference between the freemium and paid products.[19:15] Citizen on the world stage: Darrell talks about taking Citizen global and how the company “a safety marketplace” to the world.[22:20] World pricing: Darrell offers potential strategies for global cost and price differences.[24:52] Understanding users: Darrell gives insight into how user research shapes A/B testing, product development and the improvement loop.[30:05] Antifragile product development: One of Darrell’s go-to recommendation for people in product is Annie Duke’s interview on The Knowledge Project. Bumps are inevitable during the product development process — it’s how you manage it that matters.[33:14] Lessons learned for top unlocks: Darrell discusses tips for being more right than wrong to unlock a real value-add, and how this took the company from zero to eight figures in ARR.[37:45] Buy versus build: David and Darrell talk about how bringing on third party tooling can help achieve long-term company goals.[41:45] Aligning the team to the bigger vision: Darrell explains how clear goals, rapid feedback loops and celebrating incremental progress help keep teams motivated through the whole process.

On the podcast we talk with Phil about the thesis behind Tinder’s monetization strategy, the importance of product differentiation, and why some companies shouldn’t use subscriptions.Our guest today is Phil Schwarz, Partner at Corazon Capital, a leading Chicago-based venture fund investing in early stage tech companies. Prior to joining Corazon, Phil served as the Chief Marketing Officer at Tinder during the rollout of subscriptions. He was also previously Head of Growth Initiatives at Match Group.In this episode, you’ll learn:3 key innovations that propelled Tinder’s growthTips for optimizing your paywall strategyHow Tinder transitioned to a subscription-based modelLinks & ResourcesCorazon’s websiteFollow Corazon on TwitterCorazon’s LinkedIn pageContact CorazonPhil’s LinksPhil’s LinkedIn pageFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub Club

On the podcast we talk with Gessica about how to think about brand marketing for apps, finding product/channel/messaging fit, and why you shouldn’t even refer to Bill Gates in an ad campaign.Our guest today is Gessica Bicego, Chief Marketing Officer at Paired, the #1 app for couples. Prior to joining Paired, Gessica spent 6 years leading performance marketing and growth at Blinkist.In this episode, you’ll learn:How to build a moat around your brandPaired’s growth stack & favorite data collection toolsTips for allocating ad spending & measuring advertising campaignsWhy Bill Gates sent Gessica a cease and desist letterLinks & ResourcesAlbertTaboolaRuntasticFivetranAmplitudeRevenueCatSnowflakeLookerPhiture’s Mobile Growth Nightmares podcastSub Club Podcast episode 39: 8 Principles for Sustainable Growth — Sean Ellis & Ethan Garr, Breakout GrowthGessica’s LinksGet PairedCurrent job openings at PairedFollow Paired on InstagramFollow Gessica on TwitterGessica is on InstagramGessica’s LinkedIn pageFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub Club

On the podcast we talk with Giancarlo about soft vs. hard paywalls, how to think about product experiments, and why removing friction from onboarding didn’t actually help.Our guest today is Giancarlo Musetti, Growth Product Manager at Ad Hoc Labs. Ad Hoc Labs makes several apps including Firewall and Dialed, but is most well known for Burner, an app that allows you to create multiple phone numbers to protect your privacy and better manage communication.In this episode, you’ll learn:How to make a smooth transition to a subscription-based modelTips for optimizing your paywallHow to boost your app’s growth and user baseGiancarlo’s three-step process for testing new strategies and featuresGiancarlo’s LinksAd Hoc Labs’ websiteBurner appFirewall appDialed appAd Hoc Labs’ hiring pageGiancarlo’s LinkedIn pageFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub Club

On the podcast we talk with Darrell and Jake about optimizing your app’s paywall, how to increase revenue by giving users a better experience, tips for pricing your app, and how to reduce subscriber churn.We’re with Darrell Stone and Jake Mor in front of a live audience at the App Promotion Summit in New York City. The App Promotion Summit is America’s leading app marketing conference. Darrell is the Head of Product & Design at Citizen, the number one public safety app in the U.S. Jake is the Founder & CEO of Superwall, the best way to build in test paywalls without having to update your app.In this episode, you’ll learn:Where to put your app’s paywallWhich features should you paywall?When to paywall all of your app’s featuresA clever way to win back users who cancel their subscriptionLinks & ResourcesRevenueCatPrevious webinar with Jake on YouTubeJake Mor’s LinksFollow Jake on TwitterSuperwall’s websiteFollow Superwall on TwitterDarrell Stone’s LinksFollow Darrell on TwitterCitizen’s websiteFollow Citizen on TwitterFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub Club

On the podcast we talk with Mark and Jeff about community led growth, how they improved trial starts by 25%, and why running ads for a blog post might actually perform better than sending people directly to the App Store.Mark is an RRCA Certified Distance Running Coach and created None to Run as a blog and personal outlet to stay in touch with his passion for exercise science and healthy living. Jeff has been developing iOS apps since 2009 and teamed up with Mark to build an app as the None to Run community started to take off and requests for an app could no longer be ignored.In this episode, you’ll learn:How to build momentum for your appDon’t launch your app until you’ve done thisTips for growing your audienceHow None to Run reached an 80% conversion rateLinks & ResourcesMighty NetworksSub Club podcast episode 35: From Indie Side Project to $1M in ARR — Curtis Herbert, SlopesAriel from AppfiguresLisa JhungJeff & Mark’s LinksNone to Run’s websiteFollow None to Run on TwitterGet the None to Run appJoin None to Run’s communityCheck out Jeff's fitness app, IntervalsFollow Jeff on TwitterFollow Mark on TwitterContact MarkFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub Club

On the podcast I talk with Sean and Ethan about the importance of a north star metric, optimizing for speed to value, and why product/market fit needs to be dialed in over time.Sean has worked on growth at some of the fastest growing companies in the world, like Dropbox, Lookout, and Eventbrite. He not only coined the term “growth hacking”, but literally wrote the book on it. Today, Sean helps companies around the globe accelerate customer and revenue growth through workshops, keynote presentations, and select advising roles.Ethan got his start in subscription apps working on product at TelTech, which was acquired by IAC in 2018. He co-invented and led the company's flagship app, RoboKiller and helped to grow TelTech's other top communications apps including TrapCall and TapeACall. Ethan now helps companies improve their growth trajectories through workshops, coaching, and as a trusted advisor.In this episode, you’ll learn:Sean & Ethan’s proven principles for achieving sustainable growth Tips for dialing in your product/market fitWhat metrics you should track for your subscription appHow to create a better onboarding experience for your usersSean & Ethan’s LinksBreakout Growth’s websiteCheck out The Breakout Growth PodcastDownload the Principles of Sustainable Growth PDFSean Ellis: Hacking Growth: How Today's Fastest-Growing Companies Drive Breakout SuccessFollow Ethan on TwitterEthan’s LinkedIn pageSean’s websiteFollow Sean on TwitterSean’s LinkedIn pageFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub Club

On the podcast we talk with Mike about building a principled, mission driven app, keeping product development focused on the right customers, and how ClassDojo scaled to tens of millions of downloads without a marketing budget.Our guest today is Mike Overell, Revenue Lead at ClassDojo. Having founded his own company as well as working at McKinsey and Lyft, Mike is now using that experience to help every kid on earth get an education they love with ClassDojo. Mike also invests in and helps foreign founders crack the US as co-founder of investment collective Antipodes.In this episode, you’ll learn:How ClassDojo reached 50M users with zero marketing spendTips for setting up the right paywall for your appHow to monetize your app without impeding growthClassDojo’s user-led growth strategyMike Overell’s LinksFollow Mike on TwitterClassDojo’s websiteFollow ClassDojo on TwitterClassDojo’s jobs pageMike’s LinkedIn pageFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub Club

On the podcast we talk with Cliff about the benefits of building for a niche, the one ad that changed things for Speechify, and why Cliff is now hiring comedians.Our guest today is Cliff Weitzman, the founder and CEO of Speechify. As someone with dyslexia, Cliff built Speechify to help himself learn by having text read aloud. Cliff went on to blitzscale Speechify with an irreverent approach to SaaS norms and a willingness to experiment.In this episode, you’ll learn:How Cliff found early traction for SpeechifyUnconventional ways to build a great teamHow Cliff got marketing tips from the top e-commerce CEOsThe art of successful cold callsCliff Weitzman’s LinksSpeechify’s websiteSpeechify for iOSSpeechify Chrome extensionSpeechify on Google PlayFollow Speechify on TwitterFollow Speechify on InstagramSpeechify is on MediumCheck out Speechify on YouTubeSpeechify’s LinkedIn pageCliff Weitzman: Read to You on SpotifyFollow Cliff on InstagramContact CliffFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub Club

On the podcast we talk with Eric about the importance of refining your pitch, how to build a moat in consumer SaaS, and why your month one churn might not be as bad as you think.Our guest today is Eric Stromberg, the Founder & Managing Partner of Bedrock, a technology investment firm currently managing approximately one billion dollars. The firm has made investments in companies like Flock Safety, Plaid, Cameo, The Athletic, and more. Eric is also the Founder of Check, the payroll infrastructure API and Universe Software, the holding company for Vertical Fintech businesses.In this episode, you’ll learn:Why higher churn rates at launch are OKHow to maintain a competitive advantage for your subscription appWhy Eric is bullish about the future of Consumer SaaSLinks & ResourcesBarry McCarthySub Club podcast episode 031: Growth, Revenue, and Marketing Strategies for Your App — Lisa Kennelly, FishbrainEquilabEric Stromberg’s LinksEric's websiteFollow Eric on TwitterBedrockCheck payroll optimizationUniverse SoftwareScreenshot EssaysFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub Club

On the podcast we talk with Curtis about his 9 year journey to reach $1M in ARR, why he shares revenue numbers publicly, and how taking inspiration from web businesses instead of other apps kept him ahead of the curve.Our guest today is Curtis Herbert, an independent iOS app developer/designer/wearer of many hats. Curtis is the founder of Slopes, the app for skiing and snowboarding, and he took it from an indie side project to a thriving business.In this episode, you’ll learn:Marketing tips for consistent growthHow Curtis transitioned Slopes to a subscription modelWhich tools and strategies had the biggest impact on Slopes’ successThe tradeoffs of hiring employees as an indie developerLinks & ResourcesTableauVeroFirebaseCurtis Herbert’s LinksSlopes appFollow Curtis on TwitterCurtis’ websiteFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub Club

On the podcast we talk with Michael about operating a portfolio of almost 40 apps, the importance of delivering value to customers, and why you should never use teal on your paywall.Joining me today is Michael Ritter, CEO and Founder at Maple Media. Michael and his growing team acquire and operate category-leading consumer apps. Popular Maple Media apps include: Pic Stitch, Weather Hi-Def Radar, Dialog, We Heart It, Player FM, WeekCal, and many more.In this episode, you’ll learn:Why customer support is crucial for subscription appsHow to price your subscription based on the value it providesTips for integrating ads into your subscription revenue modelHow to 10X your money on an app acquisitionMichael Ritter’s LinksMichael’s LinkedIn pageMaple MediaFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub Club

On today’s podcast we’re hosting the Subscription Trends 2022 event. We talk with Thomas and Eric about navigating content fortresses as a developer. They share their thoughts on regulating Apple’s App Store, affiliate marketing, and breakout trends for 2022. We also talk about Web3 and Crypto, and answer questions from folks in the event’s chat room.Our guests on the show are Thomas Petit and Eric Seufert. Eric has a depth and breadth of experience with mobile apps and games that few can match. Over the past year, Eric has written extensively about App Tracking Transparency and the future of mobile advertising on his trade blog, Mobile Dev Memo.Thomas Petit is a world-renowned mobile growth expert independent consultant. Thomas began his work in the subscription app space, eventually becoming a freelance consultant, and has worked with several large subscription apps.In this episode, you’ll learn:How to make a living as a solo app developerAre web apps the future of app development?Are you price-testing your app too soon?How to reduce churn for trial and paid usersNew regulatory burdens app developers are facingLinks & ResourcesThe Sub Club Podcast: Growth, Revenue, and Marketing Strategies for Your App — Lisa Kennelly, FishbrainThe Sub Club Podcast websiteThomas Petit’s LinksFollow Thomas on TwitterThomas’ guest post on the RevenueCat blog: Mobile Subscription Predictions for 2022Eric Seufert’s LinksFollow Eric on TwitterEric Seufert’s post: 2022 predictions for mobile marketingMobile Dev MemoFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub Club

On the podcast we talk with Colette about selling MileIQ to Microsoft then buying it back, experimenting with an unlimited marketing budget, and unlocking higher retention with a focus on prosumers.Our guest today is Colette Nataf, Head of Growth at MileIQ and Co-Founder of Lightning AI. From founding multiple startups to spending more than $100M on marketing in growth roles at several great companies, Colette has spent her career using data science to grow businesses.In this episode, you’ll learn:Colette’s take on Apple’s ATT and its effect on marketingOutsourcing to an outside agency vs. growing your teamAnalyzing lifetime value and customer acquisition cost for long-term subscribersHow to balance your business and family lifeColette Nataf’s LinksColette Nataf’s LinkedIn pageMileIQLightning AIColette's maternity leave blog postFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub Club

On the podcast we talk with Lisa about marketing an app with no revenue, the challenges of adding new revenue streams, and the importance of brand marketing in a post IDFA world.Our guest today is Lisa Kennelly, Chief Marketing Officer at Fishbrain, the #1 app for people who love fishing. At Fishbrain, Lisa manages a team of 20 people, and is responsible for everything from brand positioning and product marketing to business development and e-commerce. Lisa also mentors startup founders on marketing and strategy.In this episode, you’ll learn:How to make the transition from growth to revenueFinding additional revenue opportunities beyond subscriptionsTips for balancing brand awareness marketing and performance marketingLinks & ResourcesVSCOClueLisa Kennelly’s LinksLisa’s LinkedInFollow Fishbrain on TwitterFishbrain’s websiteFishbrain Is on InstagramFishbrain’s Facebook pageFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub Club

On the podcast we talk with Matt about how to not screw up switching your app to subscriptions, why offering lifetime subscriptions might not be a great option, and what it’s like when Apple ‘sherlocks’ your product.Our guest today is Matt Ronge, co-founder and CEO of Astropad. Having worked at Apple, Garmin, and founded several companies of his own, Matt is an experienced engineer and entrepreneur with a passion for building creative tools.In this episode, you’ll learn:How to switch your app from paid to subscriptionsShould you offer lifetime subscriptions?Why you should be charging more for your app’s subscriptionTips for limiting subscriber churnLinks & ResourcesGarminGiovanni DonelliMatt Ronge’s LinksFollow Matt Ronge on TwitterMatt's blogMatt’s blog post: How NOT to screw up switching your app to subscriptionsMatt’s podcastAstropadLuna DisplayFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub Club

On the podcast we talk with Robbie about finding your super users, the real reasons for subscription fatigue, and why pricing isn’t as important as you might think, especially early on.Our guest today is Robbie Kellman Baxter, consultant, keynote speaker, and author. She’s advised many of the world’s leading subscription-based companies, including serving on the advisory board of Strava. Her most recent book, “The Forever Transaction” is a deep dive into everything consumer subscription, and a must read for anyone in the space.In this episode, you’ll learn:Identifying and attracting lifetime value customersHow to get and maintain customer loyaltyThree causes of subscription fatigueWhy customers cancel their subscriptionsLinks & ResourcesStravaIntuitSurvey MonkeyOracleThe Subscription EconomyTien Tzuo: SubscribedEric CrowleySeth MillerCrossFitShopifyCalmMatthieu RouifPhotoRoomGoProElevateVSCORobbie Kellman Baxter’s LinksRobbie Kellman Baxter’s websiteFollow Robbie on TwitterRobbie’s book: The Forever TransactionRobbie’s book: The Membership EconomyRobbie’s LinkedInFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub ClubEpisode Transcript00:00:00 David:Hello, I’m your host, David Barnard, and with me, as always, RevenueCat CEO, Jacob Eiting.Our guest today is Robbie Kellman Baxter, consultant, keynote speaker, and author. She’s advised many of the world’s leading subscription-based companies, including serving on the advisory board of Strava. Her most recent book, “The Forever Transaction” is a deep dive into everything consumer subscription, and a must read for anyone in the space.On the podcast we talk with Robbie about finding your super users, the real reasons for subscription fatigue, and why pricing isn’t as important as you might think, especially early on.Hey Robbie, welcome to the podcast.00:00:58 Robbie:Thanks for having me. I’m excited to chat with you both. 00:01:00 David:I was introduced to your work by somebody recommending your book, The Membership Economy, and it really struck me. I was so excited that you agreed to be on the podcast, because here’s a book written in 2015, and we’ll talk about your other book that was written more recently, but written in 2015. I was looking through it, scanning the chapters, so I bought the book. I was like, this is everything we’re talking about now, thinking it’s all so novel with subscription apps, but really consumer subscriptions have been around for decades. You’ve been working in this space way longer than any of us.So, I thought it would be really fun to have you on the podcast to talk more broadly about these principles of consumer subscriptions that apply equally to D to C subscriptions, as well as the app space that we work in. That’s where I wanted to kick things off.So, how did you get your start in consumer subscriptions?00:01:57 Robbie:A couple of threads came together. I was in product-marketing for what is now called SaaS, for five years, right before I hung out my own shingle and started consulting. So, I had that background as a product manager working with software products that were being sold as subscriptions, and then as an independent consultant.My fifth client was Netflix. I fell in love with their business model, and I was wondering why isn’t everybody else falling in love with their business model, too? This is amazing. Recurring revenue, predictable cashflow, the amount of data they were collecting on their customer. The fact that they’re offering was just a much better way of delivering on a promise that many of us wanted delivery for, which is a professionally created catalog of video content delivered in the most efficient way possible. It meant not having to put a raincoat over your jammies to go pick up a movie, with cost certainty and no late fees.I was consulting with Netflix. I was already a customer, and a few people started calling and saying, “Hey, we heard you worked with Netflix. We want to be the Netflix of our space.” Whether that was news, or music, or bicycles, or dental pain management products, or clothes, there was a lot of interest in what it was that Netflix was doing.So, I started trying to create frameworks, trying to say, what are they doing? Which parts are applicable to other businesses, and which parts are just unique to that group of people solving that particular problem?That’s really where I got started, and it turns out to be big enough and deep enough that it’s kept me really busy for, it’s been 20 years, 20 years. 00:03:55 David:Fifth client to, to land as a consultant. That’s a. Really great. And so you were with them before they even introduced the, video on demand on the internet, right. You started with them when it was DVDs in the mail, 00:04:09 Robbie:Yeah. 00:04:10 David:Traditional D to C subscription service. 00:04:13 Jacob:But, but even then was satisfying a lot of those, almost all of those conditions. Right. I didn’t have to go outside just to my mailbox, not too bad price certainty. I didn’t have late fees. and then like, you know, insanely large catalog. Right. you know, it was, it was, it wasn’t. We tend to wait for the technology to get that right.And then, then we had VOD being, 00:04:33...

On the podcast I talk with Eric about the value destruction of App Tracking Transparency, the limitations of SKAdNetwork, and how to thrive as an app developer in this new paradigm.My guest today is Eric Seufert. Eric has deep operating experience, having worked in growth and strategy roles at consumer tech companies such as Wooga and Rovio, but he also founded and sold a marketing business intelligence company, Agamemnon, and is an active investor in the mobile gaming and ad tech categories. Eric has a depth and breadth of experience with mobile apps and games that few can match. Over the past year Eric has written extensively about App Tracking Transparency and the future of mobile advertising on his trade blog, Mobile Dev Memo.In this episode, you’ll learn:Will Apple’s ATT be a net loss for Apple?Can SKAdNetwork be saved, and does Apple want to save it?Is focusing on organic traffic a flawed strategy?What does the future of app install ads look like?Links & ResourcesRovioSnapchatApple’s Private RelayTim CookOutbrainTaboolaAllTrailsSubClub AllTrails podcast episodeStitcherEric Seufert’s LinksFollow Eric on TwitterMobile Dev MemoHeraclesFreemium Economics: Leveraging Analytics and User Segmentation to Drive Revenue Eric is on LinkedInFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub ClubEpisode Transcript00:00:00 David:Hello. I’m your host, David Bernard, and for the first time ever, I’m flying solo today. RevenueCat CEO, Jacob Eiting is busy CEO’ing.My guest today, is Eric Seufert. Having worked in growth and strategy roles at consumer tech companies such as Wooga and Rovio, Eric has a depth and breadth of experience with mobile apps and games that few can match. He also founded and sold marketing business intelligence company Agamemnon, and is an active investor in the mobile gaming and ad tech categories.Over the past year, Eric has written extensively about App Tracking Transparency and the future of mobile advertising on his trade blog, Mobile Dev Memo.On the podcast, I talk with Eric about the value destruction of App Tracking Transparency, the limitations of SKAdNetwork, and how to thrive as an app developer in this new paradigm.Hey Eric, thanks for being on the podcast.00:01:09 Eric:Thank you for having me on the podcast.00:01:11 David:So, we’re going to start off with a bit of a dead horse that’s been beaten over and over again. Apple’s motivation in enacting App Tracking Transparency, but I did want to take kind of a different perspective on it. The most interesting thing to me personally about Apple’s motivation with App Tracking Transparency is what it says about what they are going to do in the future.Did they build SKAdNetwork purposely handicapped, or did they not really understand how handicapped it was? Were they really trying to kill Facebook, or was that a kind of a side benefit? I think that their motivations are important, because it forecasts what changes they may or not make moving forward as they start to see the impact.So, I think the first thing I wanted to ask you is, how do you see Apple’s reaction and how they perceive ATT to be going, now that we’re seeing snap drop 25% after the quarterly earnings report, and see more of the disruption that you and others were predicting, but maybe Apple didn’t quite see coming? How do you think Apple sees this going currently? And what does that say about the future of privacy on iOS?00:02:42 Eric:I think Apple’s primary motivation was not to capture mobile advertising market share. I don’t think that was a primary motivation. I think that’s happened, and I think they expected that to happen, but I don’t think that was the primary driver of this decision.What I think they wanted to do was, there’s kind of like a big picture idea here, and then an immediate consequence idea. I think what Apple did not like, was that they had kind of lost control over content discovery on the iPhone.When the App Store was first launched, that was how you discovered apps. It was through going to the App Store, and some small part search, but then in large part just like the editorial curation that Apple exposes there. That changed over the years, and up until the announcement, or the enactment of of ATT, the way that people discovered apps was through advertising, and primarily Facebook advertising.Apple totally lost control. The content that people interacted with on their phones was not the result of any deliberate decision on Apple’s part or some deliberate consideration. It just happened to be whatever could scale ads the best. Whatever companies could scale their ads the most efficiently, that’s what people interacted with. That’s what became dominant on the platform, and Apple really had no say in that.Short term, narrow aperture view of this, they just wanted to regain control of that. They wanted to be the kingmakers. They wanted to be the tastemakers; the people that decided—the party that decided—what became popular on the iPhone and how the iPhone was used.And I mean, that’s, it’s, if you’ve worked in, in gaming, especially, but if you’ve worked in mobile apps at all and you’ve ever had to go and, you know, go, go through the whole process of pitching your app to Apple, and pleading for featuring You know, that that’s what they want.They, they like to having that control because that allowed them to percolate their new iOS features into the app community through almost horsetrading it’s like, you want featuring, We’d be happy to give you featuring, but you’ve got to integrate X, Y, Z thing into your app.Once you do that, we’re happy to feature you. that, that was sort of the, that was the, the, the negotiating process. You know, that that process, even that process itself became less important and less prominent in the life of a developer over the last few years, In 2012 to 2015 that’s what you did every time you were launching a new app, or even if you’re doing a major update, you flew, you flew to San Francisco, you went to Cupertino, you went into a, conference room at Apple HQ and you pitch somebody.That just stopped being something that people did. Like just people realized that, even if we get featuring, it’s not going to be that meaningful for our business, ...

On the podcast, we talk with Ron about the magic of consumer subscriptions, experimenting with freemium strategies, and how private equity isn’t always as bad as you’ve been led to believe.Our guest today is Ron Schneidermann, CEO at AllTrails, the ultimate guide for outdoor adventures. AllTrails was early to the consumer subscription space, launching a $3/month premium tier way back in 2012. Ron joined as CMO and COO in 2015, and then took over as CEO in 2019, helping to grow AllTrails to over 1 million subscribers and tens of millions of active users worldwide.In this episode, you’ll learn:How to refine and optimize your freemium strategyTwo things you need to keep an eye on as a founderThe pros & cons of outside funding vs. organic growthHow Ron fast-tracked AllTrails’ profitabilityLinks & ResourcesAccentureHotwireYelpLiftopiaAlex HonnoldSpectrum EquityRon Schneidermann’s LinksRon Schneidermann’s LinkedIn pageAllTrails Celebrates 1 Million Paid Subscribers! (January press release)AllTrails’ websiteAllTrails is hiringFollow AllTrails on TwitterFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub ClubEpisode Transcript00:00:00 David:Our guest today is Ron Schneidermann, CEO at AllTrails, the ultimate guide for outdoor adventures, AllTrails was early to the consumer subscription space, launching a $3 per month premium tier, way back in 2012. Ron joined as CMO and COO in 2015, and then took over as CEO in 2019, helping to grow AllTrails to over 1 million subscribers and tens of millions of active users world.On the podcast, we talk with Ron about the magic of consumer subscriptions, experimenting with freemium strategies, and how private equity isn’t always as bad as you’ve been led to believe.Hey, Ron! Welcome to the podcast. 00:00:59 Ron:Thanks for having me.00:01:00 David:Yeah. Really looking forward to the chat today. I wanted to kick it off, and most people know what AllTrails is, and it’s a fantastic brand. It kind of tells you what it is right there on the tin. What’s your pitch? We’re in 2021, post pandemic.Give us the short version of what AllTrails is. What does it mean? 00:01:21 Ron:Yeah. So AllTrails is a free app and website that helps you find trails all over the globe, so you can spend more time enjoying the outdoors, and spending time in nature.00:01:34 David:That’s awesome.00:01:35 Jacob:That’s a very nice mission. That’s way more beautiful than helping developers make more money. Both are important, but I can smell that. It smells, “piney” and I like it.00:01:46 David:Yeah, it smells like the Colorado forest. I haven’t been hiking forever, and doing all the research to chat with you today was like, oh man, I need to go hiking more.00:01:55 Ron:I heard there’s a great app for that.00:01:57 David:I heard that.So, I did want to also ask about your journey to AllTrails. You got there fairly early, and then grew in, and you’re now CEO. Tell me, off the bat, what led you to AllTrails way back in 2015 when it was just six people?00:02:20 Ron:Yeah. To answer that I’m going to go a little bit further back in time. My first job right after college was at Accenture, at a global management consulting firm. It was great. A good jumping off point, and I learned a ton. I didn’t know anything going into that job. You know, you get the rubber stamp and it opens doors.By the end of my third year there, I kind of had a realization. Epifany is a little too strong a word, but I just kind kinda realized I can’t take a job just for money again. The amount of time and energy that I was putting into it, and the lack of work-life balance, it really made me rethink who I want to be. Who does working Ron want to be?So, I was able to parlay that Accenture job into a biz dev role over at Hotwire, an online travel company. That was really where it opened my eyes. Like, I am so much happier, and I am honestly so much better when I’m working at something that I’m just personally passionate about.That guiding principle has really held through throughout my career trajectory. From Hotwire, I want to do my own startup in the ski space. I love to ski. So, I did that for nine years. It was a ton of fun. Then I was over at Yelp, doing growth for a bit. I love finding non-chain restaurants, and supporting mom and pop businesses, and stuff. I live in Yelp, so that was great.Then, when the opportunity for AllTrails presented itself, it was just kind of a no-brainer. Of course I’m going to take this.I’ll say this to you, one little addendum, one of the things I learned along the way, too. I am not a zero to one guy. That is not when I am at my best. It just causes me stress and anxiety, and just, figuring out how to keep the lights on for another day.So, again, knowing kind of that sense of self knowing. Like, alright, I’m best at B to C. I’m at my best when I’m using products I personally want to use and like talking about. I like hypergrowth, and I think that’s probably my sweet spot.So, it starts to all align when AllTrials showed up.00:04:34 David:Yeah. And then how did that go from? You joined the company as COO, right? And then, what was the progression inside the company to eventually taking over as CEO?00:04:45 Ron:Yeah. So if you want to demo and COO, I dunno why I really wanted to have both, like, I didn’t want to just be CMO in a vacuum, but not have any ownership or agency over kind of team composition and strategy and stuff. So I thought that it was really. Really important. And when you’re a six person company, it’s pretty easy to grab titles.It’s not like how to take it from anyone.00:05:08 Jacob:I was going to ask, like, I mean, it’s, it’s not like you see this a lot where it’s like a six person company and they had like five C-levels and you’re like, okay. Yeah, sure. Like, like my title, for example. But like, I’m kind of curious, like, you know, you like your background, you founded a company, like you were like a real CX whatever.Right? Like it’s not like it was fake. So how did, how did that, how did you go as like an executive, like choo...

Our guest today is Eric Crowley, a tech investment banker with GP Bullhound. With investments in companies ranging from Spotify to Whoop, and clients such as AllTrails, Pinkbike, and Lingoda, GP Bullhound provides transaction advice and capital to many of the leaders in the Consumer Subscription Software space.On the podcast we talk with Eric about his 2021 report on Consumer Subscription Software, the truth about LTV calculations, and the new era of organic user acquisition.In this episode, you’ll learn:Was 2020 just a “COVID Bump,” or a shift in consumer behavior?Are the Bumble & Duolingo IPO multiples justified?How savvy developers are adapting to Apple’s App Tracking TransparencyThe truth about LTVThe new era of customer acquisitionLinks & ResourcesSpotifyWhoopAllTrailsPinkbikeLingodaBumbleDuolingoInstacartMatch GroupNetflixNoomWeight WatchersTinderThe DyrtDay One JournalAutomatticTech CrunchScribdPandoraEric Crowley’s LinksFollow Eric on TwitterGP BullhoundGP Bullhound insightsEric’s LinkedInGP Bullhound 2021 CSS surveyFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub ClubEpisode Transcript00:00:00 David:Hello, I’m your host. David Bernard. And with me, as always, RevenueCat CEO, Jacob Eiting. Our guest today is Eric Crowley, a tech investment banker with GP Bullhound. With investments in companies ranging from Spotify to Whoop, and clients such as AllTrails Pinkbike, and Lingoda, GP Bullhound provides transaction advice and capital to many of the leaders in consumer subscription software.On the podcast, we talk with Eric about his 2021 report on consumer subscription software, the truth about LTV calculations, and the new era of organic user acquisition.Hey, Eric, welcome to the podcast.00:00:56 Eric:Hey, David, Jacob. Thanks for having me back. It’s always a pleasure. 00:00:59 David:Yeah. Every year you release this report, so we had to get you back. This is the third annual Consumer Subscription Software Report, and I wanted to kick off just asking you a little bit about the motivation, and where your headspace is in thinking about creating this. Who the target is, and what kind of questions you’re asking yourself as you prepare this report.00:01:24 Eric:Yeah. The report is the GP Bullhound Consumer Subscription Software Report. I call it CSS, which is kind of a playoff SaaS. This is the third year I’ve been writing it, and it started back in 2018. I worked with a company called AllTrails that was starting to monetize really well by selling subscriptions.It was like a light bulb went off in my head. I was like, this is a phenomenal way to provide a consistently improving product to consumers, where the margins are pretty good. It’s easy to access a ton of different people globally through the app stores or through the web, and I just got really excited about it.I started putting some notes down on my own, and then GP Bullhound really supported me in saying like, “Hey, this is actually a pretty big trend. There’s gonna be some amazing companies built around this space,” and companies like RevenueCat, that are supporting CSS companies, are just as exciting.So, we’ve been slowly educating ourselves. The goal behind the report is really just to force me to do some thinking about the space. What it looks like. What it will be. As a banker, you can quickly focus on transaction, transaction, transaction, and not really do any long-term thinking about where the world’s going.It’s putting myself in your guys’s shoes. You guys are building RevenueCat not for what the world looks like today, but for what the world looks like in three to five years. I try to take the same approach with CSS, and think about where’s the world going to go. So I talked to a lot of smart people as I put the report together. Entrepreneurs, investors, get their opinions.You guys can see their interviews in the report, and then ultimately we publish it. The audience I like to think about is entrepreneurs, people that are thinking about starting a CSS company, or already launched one, and they’re looking to improve their metrics, or think about their target audience as entrepreneur-rich.By partnering with them, investing in their businesses, it takes them to the next level. The other way I like to think about it, it’s my own personal scoreboard. I love to flip back two years ago and see, was I right about this company? You’re publishing in public, so people can always come back to you and say, “Man, you were way off.” So, I look forward to that.00:03:26 Jacob:I remember the F finding the first one, the 2018, I guess, reporter 2019, whenever the first one you put out,00:03:33 Eric:2019, I think that’s how we met actually.00:03:36 Jacob:Did you reach out to me or? I think I found it, or I don’t remember what it was, but00:03:39 Eric:We’ve had a mutual friend, Nico introduced us and said, Hey, you guys should talk about this. and then I think we just went off on a two hour tangent.00:03:47 Jacob:But yeah, I remember being, it’s still, there’s still not a ton of like really focused research or writing on this space. and I think that, that, you know, this will probably won’t be true for very long, right. As long as it continues to grow, but like going back to like who it’s for. I mean, I imagine it as some, you know, end of the day, if you’re employing.Pushing into some kind of lead gen. Right. But it does provide a lot of value for, you know, even if you’re not interested in a transaction or whatever, just. Some like holistic data on a space. Cause like, I, the same, I mean, Eric, you said we’re, we’re thinki...

Our guest today is Seth Miller, Founder and CEO at Rapchat. Seth is on a mission to democratize music creation with Rapchat’s mobile app. Rapchat takes the friction out of making music, and has helped millions of artists unleash their creativity.Seth earned his bachelor’s degree in business administration, with an emphasis on management information systems, from Ohio University. Before founding Rapchat, Seth worked as a consultant for Adidas, and an IT Systems Engineer.On the podcast we talk with Seth about bootstrapping his way to signs of product market fit, raising money from strategic partners like Sony Music, and what it’s like to have Facebook completely rip off your app.In this episode, you’ll learn:Finding the right niche for your appBootstrapping and early fundingUsing the right marketing channels for your appFiltering out the wrong users for your app's paid featuresHow to transition your app from free to paidLinks & ResourcesSonyNico WittenbornTwitterAdjacentComplexSeth Miller’s LinksFollow Seth on TwitterRapchatFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub ClubEpisode Transcript00:00:00 Seth:We would be dead for sure if I didn’t learn how to code. It’s an invaluable skill that I’ll have in this organization and future organizations. It also just helps me think about things. It’s a really great way to look at the world sometimes.00:00:31 David:Hello, I’m your host, David Bernard. And with me as always, RevenueCat CEO, Jacob Eiting. Our guest today is Seth Miller, founder and CEO at Rapchat. Seth is on a mission to democratize music creation with Rapchat’s mobile app. It takes the friction out of making music, and has helped millions of artists unleash their creativity on the podcast.We talk with Seth about bootstrapping his way to signs of product market fit. Raising money from strategic partners like Sony, and what it’s like to have Facebook completely rip off your app.Hey Seth, welcome to the podcast!00:01:06 Seth:How’s it going? Thanks for having me.00:01:07 David:It’s been a long time coming. You and I first chatted way back in 2019. You were the first office hour call I ever took at RevenueCat.00:01:18 Seth:Oh, wow. 00:01:19 David:Yeah, going way back in my RevenueCat days. 00:01:22 Jacob:It tells you how bad of a CEO I am that we’ve never actually spoken on the phone in those two years.00:01:30 Seth:Or how good David was!00:01:31 Jacob:Yeah.00:01:32 Seth:I was sold after one call. I’m like, all right, dude, where do I sign up? How do I get this going? 00:01:37 Jacob:We have a lot of cross connections, because you’re an Adjacent portfolio. Nico is a co-investor. We’re also both Ohio-based. So, yeah, lots of cover today.00:01:54 Seth:We got to hang out. 00:01:55 Jacob:We should. It’s beautiful in Ohio today, but I’m not going to make an Ohio podcast.But, maybe kickoff and tell us, what is Rapchat?00:02:07 Seth:Yeah, absolutely. So, Rapchat is the easiest way to make music on your phone. We have an iOS and Android app. You really just like tap in, and open the app. We have hundreds and thousands of free beats on the app. So, you just pick a beat, you can record over it, and then you can share that anywhere.We have people making full-length studio-quality songs from their phone and sharing it to Instagram and SoundCloud. And then also on the platform, we have a social layer as well. Which is really cool. Pretty much a recording studio in your pocket, with a community, with a social layer.Similar to Visco, or Instagram for music. Our mission is really to democratize music by providing access and tools to the next billion music creators.00:03:01 Jacob:How did you get on this idea?00:03:05 Seth:Well, like just scratching my own itch in the early days. Almost eight years ago when I was in college, apps were really starting to become a thing, and same with social networks and you-do-see platforms that let you create content and share it. You know, the golden era of Vine, Snap, all of that. But there was nothing for music.I also had a hobby of freestyling with my friends. So, we’d get together, throw on beats, and rap, and some people would sing and just create all sorts of stuff. It was something that I noticed that was like, yeah, this should exist on your phone. I should be able to do this with my high school buddies that are on a different campus that I used to do it with.That was really it, just scratching my own itch. Then over time, I think we’ve really come to realize that there’s just this massive opportunity to do this at scale for those that really want to make music and take it seriously.So, I’ve kind of outgrown my own use case a little bit, even though we have people that come and have fun, but really we’re focused on providing tools for the everyday artist that historically has been kind of gatekeeped out of participating in music. So, we try and give them everything we can in their pocket, and still feels like we’re only getting started. 00:04:26 Jacob:It’s not as easy to pirate logic these days I imagine, like it used to be.00:04:31 Seth:Yeah. Right.00:04:32 David:What did those early days look like? Did you learn to code? Did you have a coding background? What did those early days look like, and when did you get the app out? 00:04:43 Seth:Yeah, I mean, pure chaos and it’s not too much different today, you know, it’s just a little more organized. yeah, the first version of the iOS app was June, 2014. I think it was June 7th and that was really. I wouldn’t even pass as an alpha version think especially with how good some of the test flights are, but, you know, it was very basic.It was, you could open the app record one track over like 10 predefined beats that had to come with the app store bundle, like would even have server side, like beats, and. Like, we just wanted to test that people would do it. And you know, of course the first couple of months, is just getting friends off Facebook and family to download it.But then, I started to notice like, you know, a little bit of ...

Watch the video version of this show on YouTube »Matthieu Rouif is the co-founder and CEO of PhotoRoom. PhotoRoom enables anyone to create studio-quality photos on their iPhone. Before founding PhotoRoom, Matthieu was the Senior Project Manager at GoPro. Matthieu is also the co-founder and CTO of HeyCrowd, and co-founder and CEO of As-App.Matthieu earned his graduate degree in materials science and engineering from Stanford University, and his bachelor’s degrees in economics, and physics from École Polytechnique. While at École Polytechnique, Matthieu was a member of the skydiving team and debate team. Matthieu also served as a Parachutist Commando Officer in the French Air Force.Matthieu started developing apps in 2009 as a student at Stanford, and subsequently started two iPhone app companies. He was part of the Replay app team when they won App of the Year in 2014. Matthieu started PhotoRoom after leaving GoPro in 2018.In this episode, you’ll learn:Matthieu’s retention strategies for keeping app users subscribedInnovative and clever ways to get users to demo your appBalancing your app’s pricing and featuresHow churn can be an assetLinks & ResourcesYCHeyCrowdGoProPhotoshopZenleaShopifyPoshmarkDepopCorelMatthieu Rouif’s LinksMatthieu on TwitterMatthieu on LinkendInPhotoRoom is hiring!10 Tools to Ship an iOS App in 2 WeeksPhotoRoom’s WebsitePhotoRoom APIPhotoRoom on TwitterFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub ClubEpisode Transcript00:00:00 David:Hello, I’m your host, David Barnard. And with me as always, Jacob Eiting, RevenueCat CEO. Our guest today is Matt Rouif, co-founder and CEO at PhotoRoom, the app for removing backgrounds and creating studio quality photos right from your phone.On the podcast, we talk with Matt about how his time at GoPro led to founding PhotoRoom, how churn can actually be an asset, and how being locked in Apple’s basement led to one of PhotoRoom’s biggest marketing wins.Hey, Matt. Thanks for joining us on the podcast today. How are you doing?00:00:48 Matthieu:Great. Hey David, Hey Jacob.00:00:51 Jacob:Hi, it’s nice to finally meet internet/virtual face-to-face. We’ve known each other for a little while. I’ve become fortunate to know you kind of through RevenueCat, but not actually know-know you. So, it’s nice to finally put a face to the name.I was looking back through my email and I think the first I ever heard of you was from our mutual friend, Cisco, if I say that correctly?00:01:23 Matthieu:Yeah, Francisco.00:01:24 Jacob:Francisco, who shared with me a blog post that I had seen that you wrote where you talked about RevenueCat as part of your stack. Since then, I think we talked as you were thinking about going into YC, and then after YC, I put in a little bit of money, so this is a good opportunity to check in on my investment.I’m super excited to dive in, because there’s a lot of questions. I kind of have followed you guys and kind of seeing some of the stuff you’ve been doing, but I don’t know, like the behind the scenes decision making processes and like, and all that stuff. So yeah, I’m excited to hear the story firsthand.00:02:04 David:Yeah, but before we get into PhotoRoom, you’ve got quite a history in app development. So, I want to go back to the beginning and talk war stories. A lot of people were in the industry way back when. Jacob and I both started really early as well. So, you got your start during the Stanford class and you were actually a teaching assistant at Stanford at the time, right? I’m kind of stealing your story, but yeah. Tell me, tell me how you got into it.00:02:34 Matthieu:Yeah. Actually I wasn’t a teaching assistant in physics. I was doing a master’s in physics at Stanford, right at the moment of the first iPhone class. And, I actually went to Stanford because I was fascinated by the entrepreneurship. And I had this business idea of printing photos and sending them.And that seemed a lot easier not to buy hardware, but just use the iPhone which just started at that point. So, I was at Stanford, there was the iPhone class. I wanted to do a photo app. So, see, 12 years later....00:03:05 Jacob:A 12 year overnight success.00:03:07 Matthieu:That’s what they say. Exactly. And, yeah, I got, I actually, I got started, programming.I was doing physics before, and I didn’t know anything about programming. So I took a class with a friend that went through the basics, and I just wanted to push products on apps. And I found that the iPhone was the best at that point. And actually the photo app became something else.The first company I started back in grad school and they became like a ski resorts app. I shipped, we had all of the major ski resorts. And, It was a great, I did that for two years and a major ski resorts and, yeah.I started an apps company after that, one called HeyCrowd around a social network. So like we had surveys that you could answer to with polls, like, a bit like Instagram stories now, and that didn’t work so well compared to the ski resort, but, yeah, I got into iPhone apps right since the beginning.00:04:18 Jacob:I remember the Stanford course. It was on iTunes U that was mass disseminated or was it the later one?00:04:25 Matthieu:No, it was the one that it wasn’t Stanford U. There was a, the guy from Fitboard during the class. I don’t know if it was doing that.00:04:42 Jacob:Yeah. I remember. I remember it being like the moment when we were like, oh, this is going to go mainstream. Right? Like, because up to that point, you had to learn iOS by doing basically Mac OS. That was like the one point there was the big nerd book you learned Mac OS, and then the SDKs came and you like tried to learn quickly, like what worked and what didn’t.But, if you were like me who came from no Mac programming, there was really no iPhone entry into it. I remember when the Stanford...

On the podcast, we talk with Ben about all things app stores. From Apple’s revolutionary launch of the App Store in 2008 to the monopoly-like powers both Google and Apple now wield today. With multiple lawsuits filed, government investigations ongoing, and developer sentiment at an all-time low, we take an honest look at the challenges and trade-offs in trying to bring two of the world’s largest companies to heel.Ben Thompson's LinksStratecheryBen’s Twitter: @benthompsonFollow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingRevenueCat: https://twitter.com/RevenueCatSub Club: https://twitter.com/SubClubHQ

Watch the video version of this show on YouTube »Shamanth Rao is the founder and CEO at Rocketship HQ. Shamanth also hosts the Mobile User Acquisition Show podcast, and is the lead instructor for the Mobile Growth Lab workshop series.RocketShip HQ is a boutique growth marketing firm with 8 figures in managed spend. Before founding RocketshipHQ, Shamanth led growth marketing resulting in 3 exits: Bash Gaming (sold for $170mm), Puzzle Social (acquired by Zynga), and FreshPlanet (acquired by Gameloft). Shamanth has also helped many other mobile apps grow and scale.Shamanth is passionate about teaching and sharing everything he’s learned about mobile growth. Much of his time and energy goes into the Mobile User Acquisition Show. Shamanth strives to ensure that the wisdom he’s gained reaches as many people as possible.In this episode, you’ll learn:The history of user acquisition and algorithmic targetingHow Apple’s AppTrackingTransparency has shifted users to AndroidWhat Apple’s new tracking policy means for developersAre subscription apps impacted more than other apps by Apple’s tracking policy?Links & ResourcesA Brief History of App Store Monetization episode – with David BarnardA Brief History of Device Identification episode – with David PhilippsoniOS 14 & IDFA Deprecation How App Marketers Must Adapt - YouTubeShamanth Rao’s LinksRocketShip HQ’s websiteThe Mobile User Acquisition ShowMobile Growth LabFollow Shamanth on TwitterShamanth Rao’s websiteFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub ClubEpisode TranscriptShamanth: 00:00:00The more signal you give to the algorithm, the better the algorithm performs, right? You know, in the post AppTrackingTransparency world, if you gain more purchases, the better the algorithm performs, obviously that would take purchases from you and everybody in the world, and it would just do better. Now, obviously it’s just taking your trial and doing much, much better.David: 00:00:38Welcome to the sub club podcast. I’m your host, David Bernard, and with me as always Jacob Eiting.Hello Jacob.Jacob: 00:00:45David, glad to be here with you, as always. David: 00:00:48Our guest today is Shamanth Rao, founder and CEO at RocketShip HQ, of the podcast Mobile User Acquisition Show, and lead instructor at the workshop series Mobile Growth. Shamanth’s company, RocketShip HQ is a boutique growth marketing agency with eight figures in managed spend. Prior to founding RocketShip HQ Shamanth growth marketing, to three exits. Hey Shamanth.Welcome to the podcast. Shamanth: 00:01:16Honored to be here. Thank you for having me, David and Jacob.David: 00:01:19Yeah. So, I wanted to start with a little bit of a history lesson. You’ve been in mobile advertising and working on mobile apps for, since very early. So, could you take just a couple of minutes and step us through the history of kind of what led us to today with app tracking transparency, and all the different ups and downs and changes that have happened over the past?Shamanth: 00:01:48Yeah. There’s been a lot of ups and downs, as you said. I see two overarching trends, but for folks who want to go into the weeds, I would actually recommend two podcast episodes. One was mine with you, David. A brief history of App Store monetization. You provide a very great perspective into how the App Store itself has changed over the years.The other one was an interview I did with David Phillips, A Brief History of Device Identification You know, we are all about brief histories, but, I think to what we talking about ATT and how essentially disrupted growth in today. There have been two forces that have led up to this point, the last decade or so I think it’s important to know and understand both of these, just to know how we got here and why it’s important, right.Because ATT just did not happen overnight. There were signs for a decade. And, you know, I think obviously a lot of this is evident in retrospect. but I think it’s helpful to know and understand what those breadcrumbs were.Trend number one has been increasing accumulation of particular data platforms over the last decade.You know, I remember, you know, David, as you pointed out, I am a really old person who, which around then, but we don’t advertise. It took off, with all this gray hair. But you know, when I started that we were doing CPC buys, CPM buys. I started doing mobile advertising before Facebook even had mobile ads, app ads.There is no conversion tracking. you know, I give it like no conversion tracking. If you, would buy installs, and you’re like, oh, we bought 70 stops. We got so many touches that we are profitable and spent like millions on games the time. And suddenly the level of sophistication that emerged in mobile advertising. I don’t think we could have posted in 12, 20 13, 20 14. But like I said, from the TPC buys gradually they have a CPI buys as ad networks that now are billion dollar companies. And so it’s an app love and have a tiny ad networks at the time.A lot of others basically fell out of the side. know, they, they like, we have enough confidence to be able to build. Rather than just a or impression we have that kind of data, that kind of confidence the next time AEO or purchase optimization. This is 2016, right?It’s just, it seems so recent. And it’s staggering to think that they could not optimize like athletes if they six, years ago. And that was just the biggest game changer in it. I still remember having a lot of skepticism that this would even work and I’m like, how are they going to find out who’s going to purchase?They’ve never done it, nobody’s done it. But clearly, if somebody could do it as a Facebook, they had the budget for data. I can only to that point the time I think it became evident to me, myself, that as to why Facebook was so successful. basically have the IDFA that IDFA on Google ID.They had that idea, with print from on Facebook audience network. So for diva able to predict with ed accuracy, who the purchaser’s book, obviously they took it a step further with relapse optimization, So obviously the more data Facebook’s SDK gun. The better it got predicting who the purchaser as well.Obviously more data the pixels on the web got the better, the...

Watch the video version of this show on YouTube »Maddie Kirby is currently the Senior Social Media Manager for the video journal app, 1 Second Everyday. Maddie started her social media marketing career at Ozwest. Ozwest is an exclusive distributor of Zing branded toy products and the Ozwest toy line in the USA and Canada.While working at Ozwest, Maddie started growing her personal social media presence. Maddie has almost 400k followers on TikTok. Since joining 1 Second Everyday in 2019, Maddie has been instrumental in leveraging TikTok to organically drive millions of downloads.Maddie has a bachelor’s degree in advertising from the University of Oregon, and has also worked for companies such as Bytedance, Inc., Egg Strategy, Transition Productions, and Atomicus Films.In this episode, you’ll learn:How to promote your app with user-created contentClever tricks to get your app noticedWhy TikTok is a great place to market your appA great strategy for growing your app’s follower countLinks & ResourcesMaddie and David’s App Promotion Summit USA panel discussionCesar Kuriyama’s TwitterCesar Kuriyama’s TED TalkDavid Smith on The Sub Club PodcastWidgetsmith appMaddie Kirby’s LinksMaddie Kirby’s TikTokMaddie Kirby’s LinkedIn1 Second Everyday’s website1 Second Everyday is on Twitter1 Second Everyday’s InstagramZing Toys websiteFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub ClubEpisode TranscriptMadison: 00:00:00I like to think of them as content buckets or pillars. You pick three and stick with those for a little bit. Try a few ideas in each bucket. See what's working, what's not. Scrolling through the app is the best way to kind of keep on top of things. And then you have to be able to think really fast and post really fast because these trends come and go. Jacob: 00:00:39Welcome to the Sub Club podcast. Our guest today is Maddie Kirby, Senior Social Media Manager at 1 Second Everyday. She began her career in social media marketing at toy company, Ozwest.While working there she also started growing her personal social media presence, accumulating almost 400,000 followers on TikTok.In 2019, Maddie joined 1 Second Everyday where she has been instrumental in leveraging TikTok to organically drive millions of downloads.Maddie, welcome to the podcast.Madison: 00:01:08Thank you. I'm excited to be here.Jacob: 00:01:10I'm also here with David, my guest, which I forgot to introduce in our freaky Friday intro swap.David: 00:01:16I usually do the introductions, but that was great. Jacob.Jacob: 00:01:19Hey, you know what? I'm very, very, very versed at...David: 00:01:21You gotta mix things up. Jacob: 00:01:23I'll pass back to David because he's the one who preps all the questions. David: 00:01:29Nice. Maddie and I were on a panel together earlier this month, at App Promotion Summit, which is a great thing to watch. We can link it in the show notes.It was four of us on the panel and it went really quick, but she shared a lot of really interesting stuff about what she's working on in social media marketing, and working with 1 Second Everyday on their TikTok presence.So, I wanted to bring her on the podcast to actually give her time to talk a little more about it in the context of promoting apps, because she's been on a couple of other podcasts where they're talking more specifically about social media.I'm super excited to have you, Maddie.I do want to dive in. We typically do have more developer focused guests, you know, people that are doing the coding or focused on user acquisition, spending 50K a month on Facebook. And so that's another reason I was excited to have you on the podcast is to just get a really different perspective.I think that there's a lot of potential in social media marketing. But not a lot of people talking about it in the app space and then...Jacob: 00:02:40Or just knowing how to do it, right?How do you even start, especially if you're a developer-turned-promoter. I think a lot of app creators tend to do the things you were talking about. David does technical channels about buying ads on Facebook or whatever, where's a lot of leverage in social media stuff. If you can do it. David: 00:03:02Yeah, absolutely. So, I did want to start with, you got your start in social media marketing, not with an app, which is another thing. It's like you came to the app marketing with such a different perspective, which I think is is really good. There's too many people who are just so narrowly focused in the kind of existing playbook for marketing apps.So, are there any lessons from your time at of all the places a toy company? Any particular lessons from being at a toy company that you think helped you grow and learn this form of marketing and specifically that apply to subscription apps?Madison: 00:03:41Yeah. I don't know if it's necessarily a lesson or lessons that I've learned. But I think coming from the toy industry, which is also an industry where people don't leave it. They have a lot of people that started in the industry and then just stayed there forever. You have a lot of people that aren't really thinking beyond just what they are normally, what they're used to, I guess, is what I would say. Jacob: 00:04:05Is what they're used to, like ads on Nickelodeon.Madison: 00:04:08Yeah, it's definitely commercials. Like when they were still talking about TV and trying to transition out of that, that's really funny that you brought that up, but that's kind of what we were talking about at the time. So I got really lucky and I had a great manager who really wanted me to push people outside of their boxes.And I feel like I wouldn't have found TikTok unless I was at a toy company, because we were so focused on trying to connect to Gen Z and young people. And I heard some kids talking on our public transportation abo...

Watch the video version of this show on YouTube »Andy Carvell is the Partner & Co-Founder of Phiture, a mobile growth agency. Here he has worked with some of the biggest apps on the App Store, including Headspace, Spotify, Triller, and VSCO.Prior to founding Phiture, Andy worked on the marketing and growth teams at SoundCloud. His team built SoundCloud's activity notification system, which delivered over 500 million pushes per month, and increased M1 retention by five percentage points in its first few months of operation. Andy has been in the mobile industry since the late ‘90s, when he started working at Nokia. Andy has a deep interest in technology, strategy and the execution of ideas.In this episode, you’ll learn:Andy’s user retention techniquesThe most overlooked component in marketing your appHow to optimize your customer’s App Store experienceAndy’s formula for maximizing your app’s notification strategyLinks & ResourcesSoundCloudHeadspaceSpotifyTrillerVSCONokiaRevenueCatSalesforceIntercomElevateKiwiCoBrazeLeanplumIterableAndy Carvell’s LinksPhiturePhiture’s Mobile Growth StackAndy on Twitter: @andy_carvellAndy on LinkedInWork at PhitureFollow us on Twitter:David BarnardJacob EitingRevenueCatSub ClubEpisode TranscriptAndy: 00:00:00So the impact that you can drive with notifications is reach, times relevance, times frequency. What we learned from the time at SoundCloud was not all notifications are equal, and the really killer ones that are going to really supercharge your business, have high reach, high relevance and high frequency.And then, then you’re in that golden quadrant.David: 00:00:35Welcome to the Sub Club podcast. I’m your host, David Bernard. And with me is always Jacob Eiting. Hello, Jacob.Jacob: 00:00:42Hi, David. David: 00:00:43It’s a thundering in your neck of the woods, I hear. Jacob: 00:00:46It’s, you know, it’s cleared up now. I think we’re gonna make it.David: 00:00:50I’ve got a plumber. Our guests might have some construction workers. It’s going to be a fun one today!Jacob: 00:00:55Is it, David? You’re breaching the magic of podcasting and it’s going to get audited out.David: 00:01:01All right. Speaking of our guests, our guest today is Andy Carvell, partner and co-founder of Phiture, a mobile growth agency. At Phiture, Andy has worked with some of the biggest apps on the App Store, including Headspace, Spotify, Triller, and VSCO.Prior to find founding Phiture, Andy worked on the marketing and growth teams at SoundCloud.Welcome to the podcast, Andy.Andy: 00:01:23Thanks, David. A real pleasure. Thanks for inviting me on. Excited to be here.David: 00:01:27Yeah. So, you and I were chatting a little bit about your background as I was kind of prepping your bio, and you shared a really fun anecdote. So, I think I’m like, “Old man in the mobile space,” you know, or Jacob and I both; we both had apps on the App Store in 2008, you know, we were early. But you started in mobile a little, just a few years before that. Andy: 00:01:52Just a little bit more. David: 00:01:53Tell us about that. You were at Nokia making games in 1999.Andy: 00:01:58Yeah, right out of university, I graduated computer science in ‘99. I always wanted to be making games, and I was applying for roles in the games industry, and then the agent that was kind of helping me find those said, “Hey, there’s this company Nokia. They make mobile phones.”I didn’t own a mobile phone at that point. None of my friends did, but it was just kind of reaching the tipping point, and they wanted to put games on these things, and I’m like, okay, that’s sounds interesting.I went along to the interview. I really was very kind of amazed at the, you know, the R and D center there. It was like, like pretty space age, you know, they were working on some real next level shit.And, I was actually pretty excited by the idea of like cramming, you know, decent games into like 16 kilobytes, which is what I had to play with building embedded games on a black and white 84 by 48 pixel display.Jacob: 00:02:55So, I was going to ask, are we talking like Snake, or are we talking like Java level stuff?Andy: 00:03:00It was pre Java. It was an embedded game. So, I was coding in C in Assembly, and I basically had to like build the whole game from start to finish. We had this shared designer who did the pixel art, and I had to cram it into 16K and make it fun. Yeah.I wrote a pretty game called Space Impact there, which was released on the 3310 phone, which I think wasn’t available in America. But in the rest of world a lot of people played that game. It was like the first, side-scrolling arcade, shoot-them-up, on a mobile.David: 00:03:30That is amazing. Jacob: 00:03:31Well, it’s pretty incredible. Just even think like the iPhone wasn’t that far behind that right? Like you were doing 16K assembly and C, and like eight years later, we were going to have like open GL driven games. So just pretty wild.Andy: 00:03:51Yeah, it’s moved on a lot.David: 00:03:53So after Nokia, you spent some time at SoundCloud, and there’s a couple of things you did at SoundCloud that I wanted to dig into, because it seems like you’ve kind of continued that work at Phiture, and it’s really relevant to our audience in subscriptions. So, one of those is the mobile life cycle program, and this is something I think so much about.There’s such a huge story that’s hard to tell, and hard to really understand. It’s something like,...

Watch the video version of this show on YouTube »Alex Ross is the co-founder & CEO at Gregarious, Inc. Gregarious is the company behind Greg, an app dedicated to helping people grow healthier and happier plants. Greg’s community has grown from 100 beta users in August 2020 to over 50,000 monthly active users today.Alex graduated from the University of California, Los Angeles, and studied data science and statistics at MIT. Alex has worked for companies such as Cisco, The Daily Aztec, and Cannon Trading.Prior to founding Gregarious, Alex spent 4 years as Director of Engineering at Tinder. Alex also co-founded Enplug, a digital signage company that was acquired earlier this year.In this episode, you’ll learn:The two critical steps in making a successful appAn ingenious strategy for partnering your app with retail companiesWhy you should involve your customers in content creationLinks & ResourcesTinderEnplugfitbod appY Combinator (YC)Alex Ross’ LinksGreg appAlex’s Twitter: @AreteRossJob opportunities at GregariousAlex’s LinkedInGregarious, Inc. on LinkedInFollow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingRevenueCat: https://twitter.com/RevenueCatSub Club: https://twitter.com/SubClubHQEpisode TranscriptAlex: 00:00:00The two steps in making a successful app business are make something worth using, and then put it in front of the people who would use it.If you have a plant, and you don’t know what to do with it, we solve that problem.So, what we did is we reached out to a bunch of plant retailers, “Hey, we will help your customers have a positive outcome with your product.”Can you put in our little QR code? And now when these retailers ship out a new plant, every single one of them has this little QR code in it.It led to our first 15,000 users, I’d say. David: 00:00:30Welcome to the Sub Club podcast. I’m your host, David Bernard. And with me as always, Jacob Eiting. Hello, Jacob.Jacob: 00:00:53Happy to be here. David: 00:00:55You sound incredibly happy.Jacob: 00:00:57It’s great. It’s a Friday, David. The sun is shining. They’re grilling a bunch of chickens in my hometown. I got nothing to complain about. It’s gonna be great.David: 00:01:05Our guest today is Alex Ross, founder and CEO at Gregarious, makers of Greg, an app to help you grow healthier and happier plants. Prior to founding Gregarious Alex spent four years as director of engineering at Tinder.Alex also co-founded Enplug, a digital signage company that was acquired earlier this year. Welcome to the podcast, Alex.Alex: 00:01:27Thank you guys. Good to see you. Thanks, David, Jacob.Jacob: 00:01:29Hi. David: 00:01:30So, I’m going to try really hard this whole podcast and not call you Greg, but I’ve made that mistake.Jacob: 00:01:36I was thinking like, I get like annoying company name questions. Sometimes. I’m like, I’m sure you get more worse than me.Alex: 00:01:43But I’m considering just legally adopting Greg as alias or something. Jacob: 00:01:48Yeah. You know, I mean, that’s a news cycle right there. A little bit of earned PR. David: 00:01:55So I wanted to ask you, so obviously, you know, director of engineering at Tinder that’s, I mean, what a rocket ship that must’ve been quite a wild ride. So, tell me a little bit about, about how you ended up at Tinder and then, you know, if you do have any fun, war stories from there, that’d be great to hear. Alex: 00:02:16Yeah, definitely. It was a rocket ship. Definitely some war stories, some wins, some losses. So, I came across Tinder and I was looking to get into like a consumer application. so I was interviewing with Uber and Twitter, and then I came across Tinder on an angel list. Actually the head of recruiting at the time reached out to me and I kind of took it on a whim.To be honest, I had not used the app before, before even interviewing or anything. that’s kind of a challenge for Tinder is like, do you, how many of the teammates need to use Tinder? Because a lot of people are married and in relationships, and those are great people to have on the team. And so it makes it odd, and kind of difficult or complicated. But, basically I joined when it was around 70 people, if I recall. So, it was a pretty small team. There was already a global user base, so it was one of the scrappiest, global brands I think probably has ever existed. Because this was all right before Tinder or right around the time that Tinder launched its first monetization efforts.And so there wasn’t really awareness as to like, great, there’s this like large, global, many millions of people are using this thing, but is it going to make money? Right? That was still an open question at the time that I joined. So, yeah, basically I joined and it was very, it was definitely still a startup.And, so there was not a lot of structure and I think my manager changed on the first day, like the person I was talking about working with's desk changed, but I had a great time and basically I ended up creating the growth team. So I became very focused on, growing the international user base.One of the coolest things that that team did is we decoupled Tinder from Facebook. And this was from Facebook login because like Tinder came to, came to fame by having, you know, you tap one button, it imports your Facebook photos. It basically made online dating as easy as it possibly can be because like you push a button you’re in and then you’re dating.Right. And by making it that simple, it made it so you felt less than desperate by using it. I think it was like one of the important psychological dynamic, because if you feel like you have to work to start using that application, then maybe it means that like you aren’t having as much success in dating in the real world.So, by making it simpler, it made it less stigmatized. More cool. Right? And so when we decided to then allow people to create accounts with a phone number that introduced all this complexity around like, well, are people going to want to do that? Then they have to add profile photos. They have to type in their name.You have to introduce an onb...

David Smith is a full-time independent app developer. Since 2006, David has owned and operated a small company focusing on creating applications for the iPhone and Apple Watch.David has built many successful apps over the years. His most recent app, Widgetsmith, went viral and hit #1 on the App Store. It has over 50 million downloads. David’s other successful apps include Watchsmith, Pedometer++, and Sleep++.David also co-hosts a weekly podcast called Under the Radar, where he and his co-host Mario Arment discuss Apple-related topics.In this episode, you’ll learn:How to transition from a hobbyist to a full-time app developerTwo big mistakes to avoid when starting out as an app developerHow customers find new apps in 2021The biggest waste of time and money for an app developerLinks & ResourcesThe LibriVox projectMirror appLaunch Center Pro appDavid Smith’s LinksDavid’s WebsiteAudiobooks appWidgetsmith appWatchsmith appPedometer++ appSleep++ appUnder the Radar podcastDavid’s Twitter: @_DavidSmithiOS Version StatsFollow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingLike this episode?Subscribe to Sub Club on Spotify or Apple Podcasts to get the latest news on mobile subscription apps.Episode TranscriptDavid Smith: 00:00:00I’ve launched, I think it’s 56 or 57 apps at this point, and all but about six of them have completely failed. I say that mostly because I’ve launched more failures probably than anyone in the App Store in some ways, and that’s the way that you can end up with success, I’ve just kept trying, and it got me that little baseline of income that it was like, okay, I’m not just wasting my time here.David: 00:00:19Welcome to the Sub Club podcast. I’m your host, David Barnard, and with me as always Jacob Eiting. Hello Jacob.Jacob: 00:00:43Hi David Number one, How are you?David: 00:00:46I’m good. Our guest today, maybe number two, is David Smith, long time indie developer and podcaster. Starting with Audiobooks in 2009, David has built many successful apps over the years, including Widgetsmith. Pedometer. His most recent app, Widgetsmith went viral on TikTok, and hit number one in the App Store.Welcome David.David Smith: 00:01:10Thank you, It’s great to be here.David: 00:01:11Yeah, it’s great to chat. We’ve chatted in person a few times, and bumped into each other at WWDC over the years. You’ve been doing this pretty much since the very beginning, right? Audiobooks came out in 2009, when did you actually start working on that?David Smith: 00:01:27So, It wasn’t even my first first app. I think my first app that never went anywhere, it was launched in 2008. So, I mean, I was within a couple of months of the App Store launching. So I’ve been doing it essentially as long as you could, and I think I started working on, oh yeah. Audiobooks, the end of 2008.And it’s just kind of grown from there. So it’s about 13 years in the App Store.David: 00:01:46Like me and Jacob, actually, we both had apps...Jacob: 00:01:50In the on days of paid up front, and only 200 apps on the App Store, and all that. It is a good time. Were you a developer, like a Mac developer before that? Or how did you trip into iOS?David Smith: 00:02:06Sure. I was a web developer before I did this, and so, I mean, honestly, I started writing apps before I even actually owned an iPhone. I just, it seemed like a good opportunity and I wasn’t particularly happy where I was at work and it was just something that I thought would be interesting opportunity.And I started learning and didn’t know what I was doing for a long time, but just kept at it. And so it’s just one of those things I got into mostly because it seemed like a good opportunity at the time. And so, you know, I just, eventually I initially was doing some web consulting as well as my iOS work.And eventually they just, the web consulting disappeared and it became iOS full-time, and that’s sort of been the story for more than a, you know, like 10 years now probably.Jacob: 00:02:47Yeah, no, I was, Kind of similar, like I just saw it coming and it was like, Hmm, maybe I should. And I went and picked up the Macco OS, the the Hillegass book and learned Mac OS programming, like, yeah, because there wasn’t the iOS book, right. There was no iOS, it was iPhone iOS. But yeah, it was a different time, fewer apps way, smaller community.So, yeah. Interesting decade.David: 00:03:15I do want to start by digging into the story of Audiobooks, and, I think one of the, one of the interesting things to me, because it happened to me as well, is how having this kind of foundation app that, that started in 2009, that did well enough. And, and I’m, I kind of jumping ahead here a little bit, but I, I think if I know your story correctly, Audiobooks is kind of what helped you make the leap to be full-time indie. And then once you become full-time indie, you started to have the time to experiment with all these other apps, and a similar thing with me, like I’ve had a couple of key apps over the years that kind of provided that like foundation of income that let me keep going.And then, that allowed me to experiment with all these different apps, like launching a pro ended up coming out of, of already having income to be able to take this big bet. and then mirror came along where it was doing really well, and I was able to take other bets. And so it seems like that’s somewhat the story of Audiobooks.So, so let’s, let’s dig into that. So it was 2008, you had had a failure and then you, you start working on Audiobooks in late 2008. what was the, what was the inspiration and, and, and, and how did how did you kick off that?David Smith: 00:04:31Audiobooks was an app that it’s essentially, it’s a, it’s a wrapper and a player for a free public domain Audiobooks. that was all it was, and it was essentially just coming into the market because. at the time, I mean, there were there, wasn’t an easy way to listen to any Audiobooks, on the iPhone at that point.An...

Our guest today is Ben Bajarin, CEO and Principal Analyst at Creative Strategies. For the past 20 years, Ben has been studying the consumer tech market and providing actionable insight and strategic recommendations to many of the top technology companies in the world.In this episode, you’ll hear about:The results from Ben’s survey of iOS developersWhy positive developer sentiment is invaluable to platform ownersHow much developers think is fair for Apple to chargeFollow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingBen Bajarin: https://twitter.com/BenBajarin

In this episode, you’ll hear about:The pros and cons of selling an app on your own versus going through a brokerWhat to watch out for during negotiationsWhat to expect after selling your appFollow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingEric Owens: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericowens/Here’s the Outline of Our Interview with Eric:(1:00) Eric and David have worked together before!(1:25) How Eric became an app broker.(5:09) The top reasons app developers decide to sell their businesses; capital gains taxes; David’s experience selling his first app.(8:03) Why people buy app businesses.(10:11) Do app buyers typically purchase successful apps or fixer-uppers?(13:35) The benefits of selling a successful app “prematurely;” David’s Mirror app.(15:25) The challenges of selling iOS apps: iCloud, Passbook, Sign In with Apple, Catalyst; Gas Cubby.(19:13) How app business valuations are calculated; the App Store Small Business program.(23:34) Adding subscriptions to an app increases its value to buyers.(26:51) What kind of documentation you should have in place before selling your app.(28:34) How buyers approach purchasing an app from a solo developer.(30:27) Finding app buyers.(33:33) App business sales increased during the COVID-19 pandemic.(34:00) The pros and cons of selling your app on your own; Flippa.(39:17) Going through a broker helps you stay emotionally detached during the negotiation process.(40:35) Fiduciary duties; representing app buyers versus sellers.(42:38) What to watch out for during negotiations; low-ball offers; due diligence.(48:17) The app sale closing process; escrow.com; closing costs.(50:21) Brokerage fees; working with Eric.(51:00) What comes after an app sale? Non-compete agreements; handoffs.(57:00) Connect with Eric on LinkedIn or get in touch at appbusinessbrokers.com.Quotes:“Any business with any kind of subscription revenue is always going to sell for higher, no matter what it is. Buyers love that... The one move you can make in any business that will increase your valuation is to add some kind of subscription revenue.” - Eric“As I get later in my life, [I’ve realized] brokers are amazing. Think about it: as an app developer, you spend 99% of your time being an app developer, right? And then you have this 1% critical action, which is the sale… It’s really useful to have somebody on your side who’s done this before and can tell you what you’re doing that’s wrong and what you’re doing that’s right.” - Jacob“If you’re an inexperienced seller of something, get somebody to help you out.” - Jacob“I forget what I paid Eric; it was probably $20,000 or $30,000. But to me, I saw it as worth every penny because he helped bring the market that got the highest and best value of the app… Having access to that pool of buyers and having Eric’s experience helping me walk through it, I think it made up the [cost] of whatever I paid him in the valuation that I got in the sale.” - David“I’ve sold three apps, and it’s been huge for me. It’s helped pay off debt, it’s helped put a little money away, and helped me sleep better at night. There’s a lot of reasons to do it.” - David“There’s a lot of people who can’t make [apps]. I think as indie app people, we just kind of take for granted — because we hang out on Twitter with a bunch of other people who know how to make apps — that it’s not that unique. And it’s a tough business; it’s not always easy to make an app that’s going to make you a lot of money. But if you factor in… the fact that not everybody can make these things, that can be a really useful tool for you to unlock liquidity earlier than you would otherwise.” - Jacob“I think people should have the mindset… that you are building an asset that you can sell someday if you want to. You don’t ever have to, but build something that is sellable. If people can treat it more as an investment, that can see people through some of the dark times, the challenges of being an entrepreneur.” - EricLike this episode?Subscribe to Sub Club on Spotify or Apple Podcasts to get the latest news on mobile subscription apps.

Our guest today is Leon Sasson, Co-Founder & CTO at Rise Science, a company dedicated to helping people overcome sleep challenges, feel better, and be more productive.Since its inception in 2014, Rise has primarily focused on elite athletes, helping some of the top NFL, NBA, and college football teams with their sleep. But in 2019 they decided to enter the consumer subscription space, which became even more important in 2020 as COVID challenged their B2B model. Leon and the team at Rise went from no experience in consumer subscriptions in late 2019 to over $500k in ARR today.In this episode, you’ll hear about:The blurring line between B2B and consumer SaaSA/B testing and subscription lifestyle analysisHow to create a fantastic onboarding experience for your usersFollow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingLeon Sasson: https://twitter.com/leonsassonHere’s the Outline of Our Interview with Leon:(1:25) Leon’s background in sleep research and the founding of Rise; FitBit.(3:38) Rise started as a solution for elite athletes; the NFL; sleep hardware devices.(4:38) How the COVID-19 pandemic prompted Rise to switch to consumer subscriptions.(5:26) The difference between the B2B product and the Rise app.(7:13) Pre-launch user cohorts and test strategies; TestFlight; Typeform.(9:36) How Apple responded to the switch from B2B to consumer app; Notion; the Apple App Review process.(11:32) Selling digital services to enterprises; Salesforce.(16:01) How other products are investing in enterprise; Slack; Calm; Headspace; Kaiser Permanente.(18:08) App user licenses; Family Sharing; Business vs. Personal SaaS.(23:00) User onboarding best practices; Leon’s controversial opinion on adding friction.(32:18) A/B testing and statistical significance; user research.(39:31) Simultaneous experiments; R.(41:52) The downstream effects of A/B experiments; counter-metrics; monthly subscriptions and free trials.(47:57) Subscription lifecycle analysis; RevenueCat charts; Amplitude.(50:00) Pricing consumer apps; the freemium model.(51:56) Connect with Leon on Twitter or by email at [email protected]:“The most important thing you can do for your health and energy during the day is sleep.” - Leon“I would suggest to anybody who’s in that pre-launch phase, if you can get some situation … where you have a trickle of users and you can start to make decisions integrated with user feedback, that’s so much better than flying blind.” - Jacob“The activation energy of one consumer subscriber is so much lower than one enterprise deal.” - Jacob“You need to figure out who’s the person that buys your product at a company—and what do they care about and what do they need to justify the budget? And if you do, it’s great because they can pay more than consumers. And I think that’s sort of the holy grail. You can sell the same product for more expensive because they get more value [out of your product].” - Leon“There are ways to sell services outside of the App Store. It’s just generally a way worse experience for users.” - Leon“The [purpose] of onboarding is never to show people how to use the app. People don’t really want a tutorial—if you need a tutorial, it’s too complicated. They just want to know how what you’re doing and what your product is doing affects their lives and why they should care about it.” - Leon“The key for your onboarding … is that you match intent to friction. Part of the reason best practices around onboarding are to reduce friction is because people come into so many apps with so much less intent… You just have to match that.” - David“Testing is not going to make a great product. Having a really good A/B testing organization and team that can A/B test is not going to lead to the best product ever.” - Leon“You can much more easily A/B test your way into a bad product than into a good product if product isn’t the focus around the testing.” - DavidLike this episode?Subscribe to Sub Club on Spotify or Apple Podcasts to get the latest news on mobile subscription apps.

In this episode, you’ll hear about:Why most apps should do at least some paid user acquisitionHow paid user acquisition has evolved over the past decadeHow to think about marketing in the post-IDFA era

Our guests today are Majd Taby and Jasper Hauser, co-founders of the Apple Design Award-winning app, Darkroom.Prior to founding Darkroom, Majd spent time at Apple, Facebook, and Instagram working as a product-focused engineer. Alongside Darkroom, Majd has also published a photobook documenting the Syrian Refugee Crisis.Jasper is a 3-time Apple Design Award winner, with 18 years of industry experience in creating digital products and mentoring people. Prior to founding Darkroom with Majd, Jasper founded Sofa, which was acquired by Facebook in 2011.In this episode, you’ll hear about:What Apple looks for in a featured appWhy getting press isn’t always great for conversionsThe benefits and drawbacks of bootstrapping your appFollow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingMajd Taby: https://twitter.com/jtabyJasper Hauser: https://twitter.com/jasperhauserHere’s the Outline of Our Interview with Majd and Jasper:(2:06) Majd’s feature on The Launched Podcast; Jasper’s feature on Design Details.(3:08) Majd’s background at Instagram and passion for photography; Matt Brown.(5:00) How Darkroom was founded; iOS 8 PhotoKit.(6:04) What differentiates Darkroom from other photo editing apps.(9:23) Jasper’s background in design and photography; joining the Darkroom team.(11:19) Why Apple featured Darkroom so heavily after launch; The Factory; Rdio.(13:46) Darkroom’s pricing structure and business model; VSCO; Snapseed.(18:09) How useful is it to have your app featured by Apple?(19:03) Frustrating aspects of App Analytics traffic attribution.(21:39) What happened after Darkroom launched—and plateaued.(24:36) Product-market fit: Darkroom had 450,000 MAUs and was making $70,000 per year even after Majd stopped working on it; Heap.(30:58) Combining Apple’s design principles with Facebook’s analytical, process-driven thinking.(33:06) User feedback, experimentation, and lessons learned.(37:04) The switch from in-app purchases to subscriptions; grandfathered IAP users.(40:28) Is the subscription model right for every app?(42:46) How users reacted to Darkroom adding subscriptions.(45:40) The CSS Flywheel.(46:00) Why Majd and Jasper haven’t taken VC money.(50:40) Darkroom’s $5M goal; diversification and optimization strategies.(57:50) Why Facebook ads aren’t right for every app; organic growth versus paid acquisition.Quotes:“When Apple features your app, it’s great and you get a lot of downloads. But those are often very low-intent users.” - David“Apple featuring you in and of itself might not be always the most valuable, just from a conversion perspective. But when you think about it from a legitimizing you as a company or product perspective, it is extremely useful.” - Jasper“Part of why a lot of indie apps just don’t ever make sense or get built is like, if you can go make $200k+ at Facebook, $120k really is not comparable. A lot of indies are sacrificing to keep the app going.” - David“Indie is still an investment. I don’t think we as an industry actually appreciate that. Majd made an investment. I made an investment. Not by putting cash in the company but just like living literally off our own savings.” - Jasper“The hardest part… is having the conviction that the path is worth going on and will lead us to a place (and then scale) that is worth spending the energy to get there. And the second part of that is saying no to every opportunity along the way to just like go chase the money.” - Majd“We had tried really, really hard to make Darkroom a smooth experience for our free tier. We removed so much friction that people started slipping.” - Majd“We tried a lot of different things. There wasn’t like one thing we did and then the revenue doubled—no. It was like we tried 15 things and all of those cumulatively led to revenue doubling.” - Jasper“Always be eager and looking for the easiest path forward and the path that’s most likely to match what you care about… I think that’s important. You’re the ones who are going to wake up every day and do this thing, so do what you want.” - JacobLike this episode?Subscribe to Sub Club on Spotify or Apple Podcasts to get the latest news on mobile subscription apps.

Our guest today is Ryan Jones, long-time indie developer of Weather Line and Flighty. Before going full-time on his apps in 2019, Ryan spent time in operations at Apple and as Entrepreneur-in-Residence at McGarrah Jessee, a full-service product marketing agency.In this episode, you’ll hear about:(3:53) Ryan’s background in mechanical engineering and the oil industry.(6:35) Ryan’s first app, Weather Line, hit #12 in the App Store(11:09) Weather Line’s Super Forecast(16:21) Networking with famous app bloggers as a growth hack; the “reply guy”(34:41) The fine line between zero tracking and anonymous tracking.(44:31) Integrating customer feedback into your app; user studies.(46:22) Ryan’s controversial opinion on customer support.Follow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingRyan Jones: https://twitter.com/rjonesyQuotes:“When I talk to people about apps… the first thing that they say is, ‘What makes it different?’ And I have to answer that question. And in my head, I know all the tiny little things that add up to make it different. But [that question] really does cut through what users are trying to figure out… just tell me what makes it different.” - Jesse“Being clear and clearly communicating that value prop is more important than it being clever or this, like, amazing brand.” - David“If you’re helpful, people pay attention. If you’re not just… asking for stuff [and] saying stupid stuff… If you talk to press, if you talk to influential people, if you’re actually helpful and give helpful responses and [are] insightful and blog about things and talk about things—that’s how you get people’s attention.” - David“A good way to bootstrap a following is to have something interesting to say.” - Jacob“There is a niche market for privacy-centric digital products, and that niche will probably grow—but as a percentage of the entire market, it probably is a single digit-percentage. And maybe it’s going to grow… but I doubt we’re going to see half the market reading those things and picking apps based on privacy labels and stuff like that.” - David“I was a pretty big [user tracking] naysayer before I had more experience. I was like, ‘You don’t really need that—just listen to your users, talk to them in customer support and Twitter, and do user studies. [But] you… can’t really get a replacement for [tracking customer behavior]… You just have to do it in a respectful way.” - Ryan“User studies are key, and it’s a thing I constantly remind myself to do. And it’s freaking painful, if we’re being honest. It’s hard work. They just want to tell you the small little fix that they want you to do. But nine times out of ten, the reason that they want that small little fix is because you failed at something way upstream—and you have to keep digging at it to get it. And it’s hard.” - Ryan“The people who email you and ask support questions, they’re the ones who care. They’re your real customers. The people who don’t care, they just stop using the app—they’re gone, they’re out.” - David“It’s not a bad sign when you have lots of support [tickets]. That’s a good sign, actually.” - Jacob“Who writes in? It’s folks that have found the edge of your product. And that’s super useful as a product creator. They have found where your product doesn’t quite meet their need, or they have been frustrated. Sometimes it’s a simple thing… and you answer that question, but you learn a little bit… It also gives you some data around the trade-offs you’ve made.” - Jacob“You have to make a decision: Is support a cost center for your company? Or is it part of the product?” - JacobLike this episode?Subscribe to Sub Club on Spotify or Apple Podcasts to get the latest news on mobile subscription apps.

Our guest today is Ed Zitron, the founder and CEO of EZPR, a media relations company based in San Francisco. Ed has worked with everyone from drone-maker Skydio to game-maker PUBG to app-maker SmartNews. He has a unique approach to media relations and is quite effective at helping his clients get results.In this episode, you’ll hear about:(4:41) Why PR is so much more difficult these days; Facebook; Cambridge Analytica; Theranos.(11:37) Joanna Stern may be the best tech journalist working today; The Verge; Engadget.(12:55) Does cold emailing tech journalists still work?; DoNotPay.(16:42) How to pitch your app to a tech journalist; Sarah Perez.(18:38) Getting press coverage in large vs. niche publications; catering to journalists’ interests; Skydio.(26:40) Make it super easy for tech journalists to write about your app; hero images.(27:57) You should hire a PR agency if you truly have a special app; Wyze; Meater.(30:04) Don’t waste money on a press release—you don’t need one; Unbox Therapy.(33:13) PR vs. direct marketing; Cheddar.(46:15) The best way to interact with journalists: Be human, be useful, and be respectful; Suhail Doshi.Follow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingEd Zitron: https://twitter.com/edzitronQuotes:“Journalists generally want to hear about things they’re interested in or their readers might be interested in. Seems obvious, but it is not. Indeed, many PR people do not act that way.” - Ed“I feel like tech journalism needs more [joyful enthusiasm]. It is a lot of fun watching someone whose job it is to be critical genuinely be won over by something.” - Ed“The big secret of PR is that every journalist pretty much tells you what they want if you go on Twitter and read their tweets and articles.” - Ed “If you’re working with a PR agency, go month-to-month, first of all. Don’t sign on for multiple months—just don’t do it. But also I would argue you want to make sure that there are actually journalists writing about this sort of thing.” - Ed“As an app developer, there’s nothing wrong with you reading a whole bunch of stuff and emailing the reporter with 90-110 words and saying, ‘This is my app, this is what it does, this is why it’s good.’” - Ed“You have to think about [a journalist’s] motivation, what their job is. Their job is to inform readers, and cynically, at some point, it’s also to get clicks. There is an aspect of understanding their business model.” - David“When you’re early on, the best thing to do is go look for those niche publications, niche YouTubers, niche sources of attention that are really so deep into your target market, and that’s going to be 10X more effective than cold emailing TechCrunch. And then as you grow and have a broader-market app, then you can think about working with Ed.” - David“An agency can cost between $8,000 and $25,000 a month. If you look at that and it’s going to be make-or-break money for your business, it’s the wrong time to do PR.” - Ed“Start smaller. Start with people who are going to really care… People who are really into what you’re doing are so much more effective than a lukewarm writeup on TechCrunch.” - Ed“[PR] is not this one-in, one-out thing. It’s this beat of a drum. You’re building… a brand. Sometimes brand leads to downloads. Sometimes it leads to hiring people. Sometimes it leads to investors. It’s building this portfolio of social proof that you’re something.” - JacobLike this episode?Subscribe to Sub Club on Spotify or Apple Podcasts to get the latest news on mobile subscription apps.

Our guest today is Faye Keegan, co-founder and CTO of Dipsea. Part technology company and part story studio, Dipsea is the first audio platform for women's sexual wellness. Prior to founding Dipsea, Faye spent time at Neighborly as a software engineer and Bridgewater as an investment associate. With a background in economics and investment analysis, Faye isn’t your typical startup CTO.In this episode, you’ll hear about:(4:16) The growing popularity of audio as a medium; Headspace; Calm.(11:21) Building a content library for a SaaS app; content analytics; Elevate.(17:00) The challenges of building a sexual wellness app for the app stores; HBO’s Game of Thrones; the Showtime app.(22:59) Dipea’s tech stack; Firebase; RevenueCat.(34:29) Scaling a SaaS app team; hiring for different strengths and a shared product vision.(36:55) How Dipsea is expanding into new uses cases: self-improvement and sleep.(38:28) User engagement; getting feedback from users on what to build next.(40:00) What’s the future of Dipsea?Follow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingFaye Keegan: https://twitter.com/itisthefayeDownload Dipsea:iOSAndroidQuotes:“Subscription … is an exploding space. People are getting so much more used to consuming premium media on their phones and paying for it.” - Faye“There can be an advantage, tactically, to raising [money] before you’re in market because maybe you don’t get that product-market fit right away. Sometimes what’s inside the box, if the box is closed, is a little more enticing to investors.” - Jacob“The number-one rule I have for tech stack is if you’re building it from scratch, you probably haven’t googled it… There are so many great tools out there.” - Faye“I’m a huge fan of … Firebase and RevenueCat. I don’t have stickers on my computer, but those would be the two.” - Faye“The majority of consumer subscription apps — you’re not building new technology. You’re building a great product and a great experience. You should spend your engineering time on things that matter.” - Faye“Generally, it’s about leveraging really great tools that offload your engineering time into the stuff where you have an edge as a company.” - Faye“There’s going to be one thing your company does that’s different from every other company — and that’s the thing that you should put all your energy into. And then everything else, just solve for as quickly as possible [in a way that] doesn’t compromise the ability to achieve the one thing.” - Jacob“The learning curve once something is in market is totally different — it’s like a totally different universe — than the learning curve of you and your friends talking about it.” - FayeLike this episode?Subscribe to Sub Club on Spotify or Apple Podcasts to get the latest news on mobile subscription apps.

Our guest today is Eric Crowley, a tech investment banker with GP Bullhound, focusing on consumer subscription software (CSS), enterprise software, and financial technology. With investments in companies ranging from Spotify to Fishbrain, and clients such as AllTrails, Partnerize, and Motif, GP Bullhound provides transaction advice and capital to many of the leaders in the consumer subscription software space.In this episode, you’ll hear about:(8:52) Prediction: There will be 50 more publicly-traded CSS businesses in 10 years.(25:38) Web 3.0 is subscription-only CSS services.(32:30) Cost structures for CSS vs. SaaS; Calendly.(49:08) The evolving investment ecosystem: what does the future of CSS look like? Follow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingEric Crowley: https://twitter.com/crowxuQuotes:“An easy bet to make is that there will be 50 more CSS publicly-traded businesses in 10 years than there are today.” - Eric“My thesis is that if you fast-forward 5 years or even 2 years, I bet most people will be subscribing to 4 or 5 different things — through their phone only. And I bet that’ll be closer to 10 in the next 3 years.” - Eric“The exciting thing about this space is that entrepreneurs are building better products.” - Eric“Consumers have been conditioned, just like CTOs and businesses were, to pay for software — because it makes your life better.” - Eric“The thing that I get excited about with CSS is that it can be done with very little capital raised.” - Eric“I think you’re going to see people see value in these services because they streamline your life. They make things easier, either in your professional work or your personal work, and the idea of $10 a year for something is not that material.” - Eric“Looking at all these trends — people paying for podcasts, things like OnlyFans and Substack — we’re seeing these financial gatekeepers, or barriers to the direct exchange of value between very disparate creators and consumers, coming down.” - JacobLike this episode?Subscribe to Sub Club on Spotify or Apple Podcasts to get the latest news on mobile subscription apps.

Darius Mora is the Chief Marketing Officer at Reflectly, the world’s largest journaling app. Reflectly is consistently in the top 5 Health & Fitness iPhone apps in the US, competing with companies 10X its size. Over the past 6 months, Reflectly has broadened its scope, acquiring 8 new apps in the mental fitness space.Darius has been in the app space for almost a decade and founded 4 app startups prior to joining Reflectly in 2018. He’s been focused on ASO, free marketing, paid user acquisition, and retention for both Android and iOS apps.In this episode, you’ll hear about:(2:58) How Darius joined Reflectly.(4:48) How Reflectly added subscriptions and grew to 12 million users.(13:40) 3 solutions for getting past the growth “glass ceiling;” second product-market fit.(18:57) User retention and churn; the “leaky bucket;” Apple’s 85/15 revenue split.(24:52) A quick and easy hack for boosting retention: add paid subscriptions.(29:28) Split-testing strategies; Amplitude; Mixpanel; RevenueCat.(44:43) Advertising on TikTok vs. Instagram.Follow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingDarius Mora: https://www.linkedin.com/in/moravcikFollow Reflectly:WebsiteApp StoreGoogle Play StoreInstagramTwitterQuotes:“I’ve had 25 apps on the App Store, and I feel like I’ve learned more from the failures than the successes.” - David“[With my first app] we made all the usual mistakes… we spent half a year building it without talking to a single user, released it — crickets.” - Darius11:30 “I think in SaaS, but also in consumer apps, the need for capital is going down… infrastructure can be rented, things can be experimented with and scaled very cheaply. It really doesn’t take what it used to to get something off the ground. And I think, strategically, it’s really smart because the leaner you are, the more options you have — and options are leverage.” - Jacob“It does feel like we’re in the middle of a gold rush. There’s just huge opportunities and shiny objects every day, all around. So the hard thing is staying focused — and are you willing to wait out 5 years until you start generating that recurring annual revenue?” - Darius“Most of the things that vendors are selling at conferences [solve] problems that are fixed by a better product.” - Darius“Unless you have really good retention, you shouldn’t be doing anything else — none of the other stuff will matter.” - Darius“You can’t fix bad retention with better growth strategies.” - Darius“Retention is a metric that measures product-market fit; it’s not a goal in itself. If you don’t have retention, it’s not a retention problem — it’s a product-market fit problem.” - Jacob“The truth is, a lot of times monetization is easier than retention. If you can figure out how to build an amazing product that works, monetization is not really difficult.” - Darius“It’s nice to get annual subscriptions because you get all the money up front, but a lot of times companies will get more money from doing the monthly because you can price it higher compared to the annual. And you get a higher LTV down the line, but it comes after a couple of months instead of all the money up front. So depending on what stage you’re in and how much pressure you [have for] scaling, you can decide which one you’re going to push more.” - Darius“When you’re running ads on any platform, it’s quantity over quality. Don’t show the market what you think is good. Show them everything you’ve got, and they’ll tell you what’s good.” - Darius

Today on the podcast we have two guests from Big Sky Health: Vu Pham, who works on the product team, and his colleague Nick Robinson, Chief Business Officer.Big Sky Health was founded to help people live healthier, longer lives with the help of technology. They are currently working on 3 apps: Zero, the world's most popular fasting app, Less, an app for more mindful drinking, and Oak, a meditation and breathing app.In this episode, you’ll hear about:(6:07) Zero helped create the “fasting app” category.(9:17) How Zero is scaling health advice to millions of patients; Dr. Peter Attia.(13:13) Striking a balance between free features and paywalled premium content.(25:44) Data tracking; long-term revenue goals and retention.(32:38) Balancing a mission-driven mindset with paid conversions and return on ad spend.(41:33) Business success metrics; ARR; volume vs. conversion.(46:15) Forecasting ARR with auto-renewal status; A/B tests; churn.Follow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingVu Pham: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vuprofile/Nick Robinson: https://twitter.com/njrconceptsZero Fasting Links:WebsiteApp StoreGoogle Play StoreInstagramTwitterQuotes:“We’re in this place now where we have these small apps that are really interactive, engaging, content delivery platforms — and they allow these people with value to add to people’s lives to reach them in a way… that television, radio, books, or podcasts never could.” - Jacob“It’s using content plus technology, forming community modes around it — but it’s all about amplifying these niche desires, these niche needs that people have. And you kind of turn into a mini TV network that’s better and it’s optimized.” - Nick“We know a lot about you as a user, what your goals are, where you are in your health journey, and we can contextually provide content to you in the moment of need.” - Nick“Working with RevenueCat made our steps leading up to launch a lot easier.” - Vu“I hear this all the time from devs who are nervous about this transition. They’re always nervous about, ‘Oh, what are these people gonna say?’ And there are a lot of public examples of apps getting beat up about [monetizing], and I’m like, ‘Listen, you were subsidizing them — they really weren’t your customers. They really didn’t see the value in it that you do. It’s your product; you’re resetting where that value bar is. So if they’re upset, it’s like, ‘Well… it was good while it lasted. I’m sorry, but I’ve got to move on.” - Jacob“[Free users] are huge vectors for growth for a business like this because those people, even if they’re not paying you dollars, they’re telling their friends, they’re using [your app], they’re engaging more deeply.” - Jacob“It’s crazy the number of people that do a first download of Zero from a text message. It’s huge.”- Nick“For the same revenue earned, would you rather have a small user base and a really, really high conversion rate? Or would we rather have a really small conversion rate, but a huge user base?” - VuLike this episode?Subscribe to Sub Club on Spotify or Apple Podcasts to get the latest news on mobile subscription apps.