On the latest episode of NASPA's Victors in Grad School podcast, host Dr. Jill Creighton engages with Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew and Dr. Renee Bolling to shed light on the often-overlooked aspects of religious and spiritual diversity on college campuses. This episode delves deep into how institutions can create more inclusive environments that respect and celebrate diverse spiritual identities. Their insights provide valuable guidance for educational administrators and student affairs professionals aiming to foster spiritual inclusivity. Student Spiritual Needs and Inclusivity Dr. Renee Bolling begins by emphasizing the fundamental role that spiritual support and expression play in students' lives. College students value having access to prayer spaces, meditation rooms, and dietary options tailored to their religious needs, signaling to them that the campus respects and acknowledges their faith. The presence of these facilities does more than meet basic needs; it profoundly impacts students' perceptions of inclusivity and belonging. Impact of Campus Climate on Religious Diversity The discussion then shifts to the broader implications of campus climate on perceptions of religious diversity. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew notes that events such as protests regarding geopolitical issues, like the Israel-Palestine conflict, can heavily influence students' perceptions of how their religious identities are valued on campus. He underlines the critical need for institutions to create environments that facilitate open, respectful dialogue around these complex issues. Demographic Shifts and Personal Spirituality A notable trend highlighted in the conversation is the increasing movement among students away from organized religion towards personal spirituality or secular identities. This shift challenges campuses to rethink how they provide spiritual support. Interestingly, their college experiences can either reinforce or reshape their spiritual commitments, suggesting that campus environments have a significant role in students' spiritual development. The Role of Student Affairs Professionals Student affairs professionals are at the forefront of fostering spiritual inclusivity. As Dr. Bolling points out, more public universities are creating religious and spiritual life offices, dedicated to supporting diverse religious expressions. These professionals are tasked with not only ensuring students' spiritual needs are met but also challenging them intellectually and promoting bridge-building activities. Advancements and Challenges in Spiritual Inclusivity The episode also highlights promising practices, such as providing transportation to spiritual or prayer spaces and enhancing bias reporting systems. However, both Dr. Bolling and Dr. Mayhew stress the ongoing training gap; fewer than 30% of staff in student affairs have formal training in managing religious diversity. They advocate for more comprehensive training programs to equip educators and student affairs professionals to handle spiritual diversity tensions effectively. Conclusion: Moving Forward with INSPIRES The INSPIRES index, discussed extensively in the episode, represents a significant advancement in assessing and improving campus climates for religious and spiritual identity inclusivity. Funded by the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, INSPIRES provides institutions with a scorecard and actionable recommendations across seven domains, aiding in the creation of more inclusive campuses. Institutions interested in participating in the INSPIRES survey can access the index website, with the survey closing on December 16. In summary, this episode of SA Voices From the Field offers a comprehensive look at the multifaceted role of spiritual inclusivity in higher education. As colleges continue to evolve, ensuring that all students feel seen, heard, and respected in their spiritual identities remains a critical aspect of their mission. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm Doctor. Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on Essay Voices From the Field, it's my pleasure to welcome 2 scholars from the Ohio State University. They're gonna be talking about the work they're doing with the INSPIRES index, which is an index that focuses on religious and spiritual identity. Our first guest is doctor Renee Bolling. Doctor Bolling is WorldView Research Director of the College Impact Labs Interfaith Projects at The Ohio State University and has over 20 years shaping the student experience in US and international p 20 education administration. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:53]: She chairs the NASPA Spirituality and Religion in Higher Education Knowledge Community, serves on the editorial board of the Journal of Student Affairs Research and Practice, and mentors international EDD students through an HBCU. Her research interests include comparative international education, critical internationalization, educational leadership, global learning, and worldview diversity, all topics related to her dissertation, which received the best practices in research and scholarship award from the International Education Knowledge Community. Renee earned her PhD from OSU's Higher Education Education Student Affairs Program, a postgraduate certificate in religious studies and education from Harvard, an MA in counseling and human development from Walsh University, and a BA in sociology from the University of Akron. Our second guest is doctor Matthew j Mayhew. Doctor Mayhew is the William Ray and Marie Addison Fletcher Professor of Educational Administration. His research is focused on how collegiate conditions, educational practices, and student experiences influence learning and democratic outcomes, including moral reasoning, pluralism, productive exchange across worldview differences, and innovation. To support the study of college and its impact on student development and learning, he's been awarded more than $20,000,000 in funding from sources, including but not limited to the United States Department of Education, the Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation, the Merrifield Family Trust, and the National Science Foundation. He's published more than 60 peer reviewed articles and journals as well as how college affects students volume 3. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:15]: He received his doctorate from the University of Michigan. Welcome to SA Voices, Renee and Matt. Hello. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:02:21]: Hi. How are you? Thanks for having us. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:23]: Really looking forward to talking to you both today about all of the work you're doing with the INSPIRES index. But before we jump into the research and how you're contributing right now to the the present and the future of student affairs, we always love to get to know our guests by asking you kind of how you've gotten to your current seat. So, Renee, let's start with you. Dr. Renee Bolling [00:02:41]: Fantastic. Well, I'm really happy to be here with you today and everyone listening in. I started off in higher education student affairs and residence life like many of us, and then I wound my way into, k twelve counseling and student support, and ended up serving overseas in an international school. That got me more and more interested in this facet of diversity, religious, secular, and spiritual, or also known as worldview diversity. And so some questions from practice actually drove me back to a higher ed student affairs doctoral program where I met doctor Mayhew and began working on the INSPIRES index and some other projects. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:14]: And, Matt, how about you? Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:03:15]: Wow. That was really impressive, Renee, I have to say. That was efficient and well done. I can go on for hours here, but I'll just say that I have a history with data and numbers and a history in student affairs. And those histories align with the journey I had through college. So I started at College of the Holy Cross for my 1st year, transferred to Wheaton College, then to Brandeis University, and then to the University of Michigan where I received my doctorate. And along the way, of course, those schools do identify differentially by way of RSSI or religious, spiritual, and secular ways of thinking about schools and who they serve. And so from those kinds of context and those experiences, I kinda came into the idea that college and university life should prepare students to have productive dialogue across all walks of life, including those we typically call religious. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:04:05]: And so I've practiced that in in not only my professorship, but also a long way. I was a resident director of a small college called Fisher College, Downtown Boston, and also I was the director of student life assessment at University of North Carolina at Wilmington. So my heart is in student affairs. I actually had a job in student affairs before becoming a professor of student affairs. And so all of those kinds of experiences blend together to inform my work. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:30]: I really enjoy the smallness of our profession sometimes. And just full disclosure for our audience, Renee and I have known each other for couple years now having met in that international education space. And Matt and I just met in the pre show chatter today, but we are connected to similar people within the profession. So I'm just gonna give a brief shout out to Ashley Staples, who I used to work with at NYU, who is I know a mentee of Matt's. So we're all interlaced in student affairs usually. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:04:55]: Absolutely. Hello. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:57]: And you all are at Ohio State or as an Oregon State alum myself, I I always have to give you all a little bit of the business for being the other OSU, but I'm sure that's not not a thing you all hear a lot. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:05:10]: Well, it's funny. No. We do, actually, because Oklahoma State also tends to have the same sort of introductory jokes and remarks. But remember, we are at the Ohio State. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:19]: So that might just irritate us a little bit. So That came out of here. Dr. Renee Bolling [00:05:24]: Well and to be specific, we're at the College Impact Lab in the College of Education and Human Ecology at the Ohio State University. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:31]: Well, the work that you all are doing with the INSPIRES index, I thought fit in really nicely with our theme, the season of the past, present, and future of student affairs, particularly with the present and the future. INSPIRES is an acronym, so I'm hoping you can start with telling us what it stands for and kind of how you got here. Dr. Renee Bolling [00:05:47]: It stands for the interfaith spiritual, religious, and secular campus climate index, INSPIRES for short, and it's really, an outgrowth of past research. It's a very much a research based assessment tool based on past ideals in research, which I I think doctor Mayhew can tell us more about in a moment. But its intention is really to provide benchmarking to institutions that they can use to improve practice for diverse RSSIs, and also to provide families, students, and the public with a public face facing tool that they can use for college choice to understand how different campuses are responding to and helping to support different students in this diversity. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:06:25]: That's exactly right. And thank you, Renee, for saying that. So I turned it over to Renee because I couldn't remember because I'm getting old. And my students call it seasoning, but my daughter calls it balding. I couldn't remember actually what INSPIRE stood, but I can give you some of the background and context, and that is Alyssa Rockenbach from North Carolina State, what used to be called Interfaith Youth Corps, but is now called Interfaith America. And I kind of started this partnership a long time ago to try to look at what religious and worldview identities, how they developed during college. And we've surveyed over thousands and thousands of students over hundreds of schools and talked to faculty and staff along the way. And we learned a lot. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:07:02]: And, basically, what the INSPIRES index does is it takes information from all of that research and and really distills it into one inventory so that we can say that campus x is a welcoming environment for Jewish students. Campus x might have some issues with being welcoming for Muslim students. And when we say that, it's not just theoretical. We've actually asked Jewish students and Muslim students, what makes you feel more welcome on campus? And then we turned those ideas into items on the inventory. So everything on the inventory comes from the voices of the very people we're trying to help. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:42]: What are some of the things that you're hearing are important for students who come from spiritual backgrounds, as they're looking at college choice? Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:07:49]: The number one thing I would say that kinda cuts across all the groups, and this surprises people a lot of times is, the idea of space for support and spiritual expression. So all students, even evangelical students and students who I don't have identify with any particular religion or non religious students, When they walk onto campus and they see that a campus provides prayer spaces for Muslim students that think, wow, this campus is welcoming toward all religious identities, even my own. And that came up over and over and over again with regard to how students were making meaning of what is welcoming for them. There are welcoming issues and factors for each group specifically. As an example, for Jewish students, having, kosher meals provided in every dining facility on campus is really important. Some institutions have them, but they're in different buildings across campus. And so, when Jewish students wanna have a meal with their friends and they don't wanna have to schlep across campus to friends, sometimes that compromises whether the the Jewish students can eat with their friends or not. And so that is something that Jewish students feel is very important for making them feel welcome is this idea that there are kosher meals at all dining facilities across campus. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:09:02]: And we have examples of each of those kinds of things for each group. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:05]: Let's dig into that a little bit. I think it's it's quite fascinating to hear that the signal for inclusion may not even be related to my own identities, but whether or not the university or the college is is kind of outlying where inclusion happens for someone who might not identify like me. What do you make of that? Dr. Renee Bolling [00:09:23]: Well, we do see it over and over again. For example, one of the things that we've noticed is that students are paying attention when another student is experiencing a negative incident on campus. They're watching and seeing how it's handled. They're watching to see how faculty respond. They're picking up on how they perceive other groups as being welcome or not, and that informs their own experience of the campus climate. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:46]: You all have been doing this work long before the campus protests began to erupt regarding Israel and Palestine across the last year. How are you seeing that work impacted or affected or the the way that students are responding to the index be affected by the current climate? Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:10:02]: It's a great question. We will have some data in about 2 weeks. You have to invite us back. We actually have a campus, a module as part of the INSPIRES index that asked campuses how they managed the campus protests over the course of the last year. And we asked very specific questions of campuses, and those questions came from experts in the Jewish faith and Muslim faith as well as psychometricians and folks on the ground. So student affairs officers who were dealing with the crisis on a day to day basis, we vetted the survey to make sure, oh, is this really tapping into the dimensions that you found to be important on campus? I think there's a lot to talk about here, but one of the things I'd like to talk about when this comes up is, you know, how religious diversity might differ from other forms of diversity. And because folks for a long time haven't thought about that really or or religion's been sort of stiff armed as something that is not as central to be an inclusion as other forms of Folks haven't really been readied for thinking about religion differently. So let me give you an example of that. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:11:10]: There's a logic of choice that oftentimes is is associated with religion that's not associated with, say, other forms of diversity. And so there are in the western way we think about religion, especially, a lot of the students that come to campus think that religion is a choice. On Tuesday, you can be atheist, and on Wednesday, you could be an evangelical. And because of that choice that people have and how they identify, then that kind of makes its way into diversity conversations as a distinctive, way of thinking about how do we then inform practice, inform policies on campus when choice might be something that students are thinking about. Choice is not necessarily something some a lot of folks think about, say, in the context of race, in the context of GLBTQIA plus issues, in the context of those kinds of things. But with religion, especially from the western perspective, choice is something that's entertained. We have other logics too like coercion. That's a logic also that might be very specific to religion. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:12:10]: How does an authentic conversation between people of different faiths or non faith based tradition, when does that evolve or devolve depending on whom you ask into a coercive conversation where somebody's trying to convert me rather than just have an authentic conversation about lived experiences? So those are the kinds of nuances that if we hadn't talked about religion, we need to start talking about it much more readily in order to really understand where the motivations for some of the protesting comes from and the policy set to manage the protest. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:41]: Let's back up for a second here, and I'd like to get into some of the demographics of the average American college campus. I think you're absolutely accurate in saying that the average student affairs practitioner maybe isn't as knowledgeable in the DEI spaces around religion as we might be around racial identity or ability or sexual orientation, etcetera. So who are our students right now on the average American campus? How are they identifying? And what do we know on kind of that metadata perspective? Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:13:09]: I think that it's very different, Jill, based on the college that you're asking about. So when we think about things like Christian colleges or evangelical schools, what the average, if you will, look or makeup of that campus, it's gonna be very different than students may be at a public institution, and that's gonna look very different than students may be at a private institution, and that's gonna look very different than students may be at a private nonsectarian institution. And so the way we think about context really does inform the answer to that question. What we do know just in general is that over the college experience, there are more students who are leaving formalized religion and identifying rather as spiritual and non religious, and that's kind of growing over time. We've also learned though that there are students, who go into college with a certain faith based background and they actually meet other folks, and they discuss ideas and life choices and purpose and calling with those folks. And it oftentimes strengthens their commitment to their faith because the students are able to make their faith their own. And so it's very difficult to, like, hone in on specific statistics because the context differs so much. Dr. Renee Bolling [00:14:15]: That's true. And one of the things that we've done with INSPIRE is we've looked across institutional type. So comparing institutions to like institutions, whether those are private, public, have a religious affiliation, or a particular type of religious affiliation, trying to compare apples to apples in that sense so that when they're benchmarked, they're seeing how other institutions like them are doing serving their populations. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:38]: What is the role of student affairs today in supporting students' spiritual identity, spiritual growth, or spiritual connection? Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:14:46]: Well, this could take hours, and I love it. So somebody recently just asked me to to to talk about this. And there are really a couple of things and I'll I'll just bring up the the first two that come to mind. Students are really able to differentiate between relationships that they find harmful, that they find coercive, and that they find challenging and provocative. And so the key for student affairs practitioners is in whatever context they are in, whether they're putting on a program or an activity, they need to design an environment where students are challenged, but students are not harmed by what's going on in that space. And the only way to do that is for the educator really to shore up their own knowledge about power in the space, their own knowledge about white Christian nationalism, and how that's kind of forced its way into the academy, insidious and sometimes overt ways, but also being able to wrestle with their own RSSI identity, if you will. Try to make meaning of that so that they can provide kind of a measurable vulnerability as an introduction into the context and space. That's one thing I would say needs to happen. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:15:50]: The other, and this is critically important, this is really hard, is for the activities and the programs themselves to be bridge building. So it can't be that you just have an activity over here for evangelicals and you happen to invite atheists to the activity for evangelicals and hope magic happens. There has to be some intentional bridge building around the program or activity where conversations enable people to talk about their lived experiences in ways that are really challenging, but supported by the folks who are actually in the space running it. Dr. Renee Bolling [00:16:22]: And this gets to something that you were you were sharing and asking about earlier, which is that the training that we have in student affairs around this. We know from INSPIREs that from our participating campuses, the highest area of folks who have training in, religious diversity in that background is in residence life and mental health counselors, and that's at around 30% having that training. In other areas, academic advising, health center and wellness staff, career counselors, we're looking at between 6 10% having training in this area. So this is a very large need in our in our profession. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:55]: And how do we balance all of the need to be educated and informed in this situation with what some people would say might be butting up against the values of a public institution? Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:17:04]: Well, I think first of all, we need to understand that even though there's a a general understanding or at least access to language about separation between church and state, folks need to understand what that actually means. What that actually doesn't mean is that you can't talk about religion on campus. You could talk about religion all you want on campus and whatever space you want. Separation of church and state has nothing to do with what's discussed on campus. That's the first thing. The second thing that's really important to understand is if we don't talk about religion in spaces where students want to talk about religion, then how in the world are we educating the whole student? How are we really getting at their lived experiences if we're saying, oh, well, 80% of your lived experiences we'll talk about, but the 20% having to do with religion, that's not welcome here. It doesn't make sense. And so I think we have to really start to think holistically about how we offer the educations we do offer at colleges and universities. Dr. Renee Bolling [00:18:01]: There's also a distinction between devotional teaching about a tradition or a worldview and academic or teaching about that religious, secular, or spiritual worldview and engaging and having authentic encounters with difference. And that's what we're talking about here is being equipped to have those encounters in ways that are productive, in ways that build a a sense of pluralism where everyone is welcome, and these aren't conversations that we're afraid to have, but that we're empowered to have in ways that are respectful and respect the dignity of all students. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:32]: Let's talk about what that training can look like for student affairs practitioners. What is it that institutions are doing well right now that leads them to these inclusive spaces? Dr. Renee Bolling [00:18:42]: More and more institutions are starting to have multi faith spaces and spaces for religious identities to feel a sense of safety, have a safe space that they can go and express their religious identity. I think where we need to work a little bit more is on these brave spaces and building up faculty and staff training to be able to, facilitate some of these encounters. Another area that we are doing somewhat well in, as was touched on earlier, was accommodations for different religious and spiritual identities to be able to access food. We know that food insecurity is an issue across different groups on campus, but we could be doing better, like Doctor. Mayhew said, in making sure that this isn't just one place on campus, but that it's throughout our dining and residential facilities. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:23]: That food element is so critical. I know last year we had Ramadan fasting happening during a lot of people's finals weeks, which deeply impacts the students' ability to be successful. We've also had fasting for other holidays happening in conjunction with all sorts of other things that could impact student performance in the classroom. So I think that's one way to to fundamentally connect where the rubber meets the road really in terms of inclusion. Dr. Renee Bolling [00:19:46]: One thing that we learned from surveying presidents after the incidents of October 7th was that there are not enough, religious, secular, and spiritual or interfaith councils on campuses where that line of communication is opened up between the university, between student affairs professionals, and between both students who represent different religious identities and community members and community leaders who also represent them. And that's an area for growth for the profession, and it's also an area that presidents of universities have expressed interest in. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:20:16]: Right. I was just gonna say that was so eloquently put, Renee. Thank you. But I was gonna invite some of my colleagues across the country. And for those of you who are graduates of student affairs programs, please call or get in touch with the people who are still on campus teaching the next generation of of practitioner. A lot of the programs that we've seen have shored up the curriculum in ways that spiritual, religious, and secular diversity doesn't even make it into courses on, student development and learning anymore. It used to be we had a full year at Ohio State of that course, and we've actually had to cut back because students wanted other requirements. And in cutting back, sometimes we miss the whole conversation because there's just not enough space in the classroom to talk about it. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:20:57]: And so I think that that's really important if we do value it and if students are living it, then we need to have some formal training in how to think about RSSI work while students are getting their master's degrees and then moving on into the profession. Dr. Renee Bolling [00:21:11]: I think one opportunity for us is in thinking about students' multidimensional identities and even their intersectionality. What we know is that not everywhere views their religious, secular, or spiritual identity as a choice. There are definitely religious cultures, a religious, and spiritual communities of belonging that are more about praxis or about community than they are even about belief. And so I think that's an area to think about where this crossover is between different types of diversity. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:37]: Let's go back to the index. You've worked with dozens and dozens of institutions. We can see them all on the website. If I'm an institution that is interested in becoming part of the index process, what am I going to receive as an outcome? What what is involved with my students? What information should I be looking forward to? What can I change of my practice based on the dataset I might get back? Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:21:58]: Well, let me provide a context and then I'll head it over. I'll kick it over to Renee really quickly. So with generous funding from the Arthur Defining Davis Foundations, we've been able to provide this index for free for institutions. It's also not a survey of students. It's one inventory that somebody or a group of somebodies takes on behalf of their institution that then comes back to us and we analyze. And analysis will give them some insight. We do provide specific reporting back to the institutions to give them insight on how they're doing compared to students like that or or other institutions like them. Excuse me. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:22:32]: And so that is kind of what the institutions get. And then what the what the public gets, if the institution allows their data to go public, you know, folks are able to see kind of how they're doing in different spaces. And that's really helpful, not only in the spirit of transparency, which we hope most institutions have, but also just giving caregivers and the students the information they need when they're making college decisions. Dr. Renee Bolling [00:22:54]: The 2 kind of feedback mechanisms for university are a scorecard that is produced where they receive a star rating on 7 different areas or domains, and then they also receive a report that gives recommendations based on those star ratings. The 7 domains are religious accommodations, space for support and expression, structural diversity, institutional behavior, efforts to reduce negative engagement, and extracurricular engagement. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:20]: The most important thing I think you said is that it's free for institutions right now due to grant funding. It's very rare that we get rich assessment tools that we don't have to invest in. Sounds like there's a time investment, but not necessarily a monetary one right now. So if I'm an institution and this is speaking to me or maybe I'm I'm listening, I'm a VPSA and I think we need to do this, How can we make that happen? Dr. Renee Bolling [00:23:39]: Well, I'd love to direct you to our INSPIRE's index website, which is very simply inspiresindex.org. And we also have QR code access and other such things that we can share. But right now, there is a live link direct to begin the survey open through December 16th, and we're welcoming new campuses to join in. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:57]: Is there anything else you want student affairs voices from the field listeners to know about this important work that you're doing with religious identity and spiritual interfaith identity on college campuses? Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:24:07]: Well, there's a ton more, and I wish we had hours to talk about this because this is our life work. I will say with regard to the index, only because Gillette comes up so often. Even though the press and other people ask us to rank institutions like who's doing the best at what, we don't do that. It violates the whole spirit of what inspires us all about. So we might have a couple of institutions that we say these institutions collectively are doing a pretty good job at x or y or z, but we're never gonna say this institution ranks 1, you rank 2, you rank 3. It just violates the whole thing. And I think that's really important for folks who are making decisions about participation, know, that we are never going to allow that to happen. And so I think that's really important because in the spirit of what we're trying to do here, which is bring people together through thinking, strategically as well as thoughtfully about religious, spiritual, and secular diversity, it's just not it's not aligned with any of the values that we carry forward. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:00]: Without naming an institution then, can you identify some of the practices that are looking really promising in this area that are happening on campuses right now? Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:25:08]: Oh, sure. I think, transportation is a big one. So when folks need to go to different places to pray or to have reflection time or different spaces on campus, oftentimes that they need to practice whatever they wanna practice, a lot of institutions are providing free transportation to those spaces because there's not necessarily gonna be a prayer space set in every residence hall, for example. That's a very promising practice that we see folks are engaging right now. Another promising practice is folks are really starting to take on the idea of bias reporting in this space and how to close the loop. So oftentimes, people will will report something or students will report that something happened, and then they feel like it goes into an echo chamber, and they never really get information on what actually happened with their complaint. And so we do have institutions that are really being very strategic about closing that loop a bit to ensure that everybody knows that this is a safe place, and there will be responsiveness when these issues come up. There's a lot of others as well, but those are the ones that I've recently been speaking about at least, and there's more for sure. Dr. Renee Bolling [00:26:12]: If I may, I think there's also some things on more of a macro structural level that we're starting to see. It used to be that you saw religious and spiritual life offices more at private campuses, and we're beginning to see more of them at public universities, even flagship universities. And that's exciting to see that commitment to equity across different types of religious expression and diversity as something that is protected under our amendment rights, but also something that can be supportive of students in their diversity. So that's exciting to see. We know already that that there's chaplaincy available at public institutions in their medical schools. It's just not nearly as readily available on the student facing side for undergraduate and graduate students. So I think there's a lot of opportunity here. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:54]: I'm going to go ahead and move us into our theme questions for the season. And again, we're focusing on the past, present, and future of student affairs. So I'm gonna ask you one question from each era. So on the past, what's one component of the history of the student affairs profession that you think we should either continue to carry forward or alternatively let go of? Dr. Renee Bolling [00:27:15]: I think a focus on holistic learning and holistic student development requires us to pay attention to how students are doing spiritually and their spiritual diversity. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:27:24]: I think the whole idea that religion is something that we shouldn't bring up or that we shouldn't actually be intentional about should be abandoned. Obviously, I think that there's a lot of room in the way we think about providing services and activities to students, especially the whole student, like Renee said, for us to strategically think about how to put these programs together in ways that are actually bringing folks together and healing communities. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:46]: Moving into the present, what's happening in the field right now that's going well for student affairs? Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:27:51]: Well, I think student affairs is doing a really good job right now at trying to provide places for students who might be experiencing some sort of struggle in their journey in college, providing them a place to struggle, a place to be free about talking about those struggles, a place to be free about thinking about new ideas, and whether that is in the residence halls with their, residence life staff. As Renee said, a lot of the institutions are training their staff across different functional areas. So we do know the word is getting out. So wherever students decide to have those struggles, there's some shining hope that people across functional areas are actually being trained to talk about these issues with students. Dr. Renee Bolling [00:28:31]: I think in the present, we're seeing a good amount of conflict in our world that it reaches our campuses at times, and that's to be expected. I think that some of the work that we're doing and sharing about can provide some tools to campuses to better address when these issues arise on their campus so that the first time they're building building relationships and bridges isn't after something happens, but more proactively before things happen. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:56]: And looking towards the future, in an ideal world, what does the field need to be doing to thrive towards the future? Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:29:01]: There's so many things I wanna say that I'm trying to distill it down into one area here. I think that for the future, higher education programs especially need to take on the challenge of training students on how to effectively manage any sort of or tension on campus due to religious and spiritual and secular diversity. I think that that's a challenge. I don't know if there's a lot of people out there who know how to train the trainers or even professors who know how to train the future generations. And so thinking about that is really, really challenging, but I think it's gonna become more and more important as the world shrinks due to technology. And like Renee said, as things are starting to lean into college campuses from, from what's happening overseas, religion's just gonna become more and more important as something to think about. Dr. Renee Bolling [00:29:44]: I'm going to piggyback off of that with my answer. I think this connection between religious, secular, and spiritual or worldview identity and culture, ethnicity, language, and class, I think exploring those connections is gonna continue to be important rather than thinking about diversity in kind of isolated spaces. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:02]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:08]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a ton of things happening in NASPA. Doctor Janai Chandler has joined the, research and Policy Institute for NASPA as the new vice president for research and policy. With over 17 years experience as a higher education practitioner, researcher, and policy advocate, she aims to equip NASPA members and student affairs professionals with valuable research and policy tools to enhance student and staff success. Doctor. Chandler is particularly eager to engage with the 2024 top issues and hear from you about how to best support your work. She's a proud graduate of the HESA doctoral program at Florida State University, where she worked in advising and academic affairs. There's a brand new book in the NASPA bookstore entitled The Next Act, Realigning Your Mindset, Purpose and Career. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:02]: The Next Act Realigning Your Mindset, Purpose and Career explores diverse career development opportunities for student affairs professionals. The book discusses broadly how professionals can navigate their career paths within and beyond higher education, encouraging adaptability and personal growth. Through real life narratives, the authors offer practical advice on assessing and aligning one's career with personal passions and evolving professional goals. They also challenge traditional views on career advancement, emphasizing the importance of finding fulfillment and purpose in work. The chapters examine a wide range of career transitions from advancing within student affairs to moving into consulting, faculty roles, or even PK-twelve education. By reading this book, you will gain valuable insights on how to adapt to the ever evolving higher education landscape while discovering new opportunities for leadership and success. Whether you're considering a career shift or seeking to advance your current role, this book offers a wealth of guidance on finding purpose and achieving long term career satisfaction. Speaking of the 2024 top issues in student affairs, this annual survey completed by senior leaders in student affairs offers you a snapshot of the most important issues impacting institutions in 2024. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:19]: NASPA recently released the top ten issues in 2024, some of which include issues in regard to health, safety and well-being, administration and governance, assessment and evaluation and more. I highly encourage you to go to the NASPA website under Reports and Briefs, which can be found on the NASPA website under publications and then reports. You will find the full list of the top ten key areas, which I've mentioned to you already, and the specific issues in those areas that chief student affairs officers have listed as important for our profession. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself, where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself in that knowledge community. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:49]: I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:19]: Chris, thank you as always for for providing us an informative NASPA world segment. It's always great to know what's going on in and around NASPA. And we have now reached our lightning round, Renee and Matt. So I have 7 questions for you to answer in about 90 seconds. Are you ready to go? Dr. Renee Bolling [00:34:35]: Let's go. Let's do it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:37]: Alright. Question 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Dr. Renee Bolling [00:34:42]: Small town girl. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:34:43]: We will rock you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:43]: 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up? Dr. Renee Bolling [00:34:47]: Somebody who traveled a lot. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:34:48]: Wanted to be my dad. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:49]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Dr. Renee Bolling [00:34:52]: Dr. Eleanor Nicholson. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:34:53]: Dr. Ernie Pasquarello. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:54]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Dr. Renee Bolling [00:34:57]: I'll say the Journal of Student Affairs Research and Practice. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:35:00]: How College Affects Students, volume 3. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:02]: Number 5, the best TV show you've binged lately. Dr. Renee Bolling [00:35:05]: I'm a huge Outlander fan. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:35:06]: The Bear. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:07]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Dr. Renee Bolling [00:35:10]: I'd have to say this one. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:35:12]: I'm not a big podcast person. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:13]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? Dr. Renee Bolling [00:35:17]: I'd love to give a professional shout out to the entire College Impact Lab or COIL Lab team at OSU, the brains and the brawn behind the INSPIRES index. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:35:26]: I would like to give a shout out to all of the funders who've participated in this and all of the institutions that have partnered with us. There's been a lot of institutions with us along the way and they stay with us and we do see it as a partnership. So thank you all for your continued, continued partnerships. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:40]: It's been so wonderful to learn from both of you about the important work that you're doing on RSSI on college campuses and the information that you're putting out for all of us so we can continue to learn, improve our practices. If I would like to get a hold of you after the show, how can I find you? Dr. Renee Bolling [00:35:55]: If you reach us at the inspiresindex.org website, you'll be able to find contact to our team, and we're happy to be in touch with you. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:36:03]: And my email at work, it's [email protected]. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:08]: And, Renee and Matt, thank you so much for sharing your voices with us today. Dr. Matthew J. Mayhew [00:36:12]: Thank you, Jill. This was great. I appreciate you. Dr. Renee Bolling [00:36:14]: Happy to be here. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:20]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:54]: This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

This week on NASPA's SA Voices From the Field podcast Dr. Jill Creighton sat down with Duane Bedell, President of Bay Mills Community College (BMCC), to delve into the vital role the college plays in supporting student success and cultural preservation within tribal communities. From leadership advice to the integration of Ojibwe culture into educational frameworks, Bedell shared his path and vision for BMCC, emphasizing the college's motto of fostering personal and professional growth among its students. Bay Mills Community College: A Foundation for Success Duane Bedell underscores BMCC's mission to empower students to pursue further education or establish themselves in the workforce. At BMCC, mentorship and personalized guidance are integral to the student experience. Bedell highlights how the institution offers a supportive environment that helps students build confidence and identify their paths, whether it be continuing their education or entering their chosen careers. Encouraging Advanced Education and Leadership A passionate advocate for higher education, Bedell encourages students and staff at BMCC to aspire toward advanced degrees like PhDs and EdDs. He shares his own journey, starting as an adjunct faculty member in 2000 and progressing to the role of president in 2020, a journey marked by mentorship and dedication. His leadership advice is practical yet profound: take calculated risks, prepare for sacrifices, maintain an open mind, and always value team feedback. For Bedell, balancing professional responsibilities with personal life is key, and he promotes a healthy work-life balance among his team members by setting boundaries and prioritizing personal time. Integrating Ojibwe Culture into Education One of BMCC's unique aspects is its commitment to integrating Ojibwe culture into every course and aspect of campus life. Bedell emphasizes the importance of cultural sensitivity and understanding within educational institutions, particularly those serving tribal communities. Through partnerships with various tribes across the U.S. and innovative teaching strategies, BMCC ensures that students are deeply connected to their heritage and traditions. This holistic approach not only preserves cultural knowledge but also enriches the educational experience, making it more relevant and engaging for students. Supporting Student Transfers and Success Bedell's doctoral research focuses on the alarming success rates of tribal students as they transition from tribal colleges to mainstream institutions. Key findings suggest that a strong sense of community and family proximity are critical factors for student success. To facilitate this transition, Bedell advocates for collaborative practices between tribal and mainstream institutions, encouraging better communication and resource sharing. Future Directions and Concluding Thoughts As BMCC looks towards the future, Bedell envisions the need for education to adapt to societal changes and trends to meet evolving student needs effectively. Improvements in data collection and communication have already enhanced decision-making processes and student support services within higher education. Ultimately, Bedell’s leadership and insights illuminate how institutions can balance cultural preservation with academic excellence, offering a model for other colleges to follow. You are encouraged to share feedback, suggest new topics or guests, and leave a 5-star review on podcast platforms, helping SA Voices Form the Field continue delivering enriching conversations and insights from leaders like Duane Bedell.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on Essay Voices, we welcome Duane Biddell, president of Bay Mills Community College. Duane resides in Ganuja Kaaneng, the place of the pike in the Bay Mills Indian community, and has worked in tribal communities for more than 20 years in various roles. He served as an information technology director for the Intertribal Council of Michigan, an adjunct faculty member for Bay Mills Community College, BMCC, and a full time faculty member and computer information systems department chair. He also served as Bay Mills Indian Community tribal manager for 2 years before being named by BMCC's Board of Regions as BMCC's president and CEO in 2020. Bedell attended and graduated from tribal colleges. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:02]: He attended Haskell Indian Junior College and completed his studies at BMCC in 1998 with an associate of applied science degree in computer information systems. While working full time and raising a family, Duane continued his education earning a bachelor's degree in information technology and security from Baker College in 2013 and a master of arts degree in education technology from the University Duane Bedell [00:01:21]: of Michigan Flint in 2015. In 2018, he Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:21]: completed an education 2018, he completed an education specialist degree from the University of Michigan Flint. And in 2020, he earned the status of doctoral candidate in education administration. Fidel is expected to defend his dissertation in November of 2024. His commitment to giving back to education involves a presidential appointment to the National Advisory Council on Indian Education, along with mentoring future leaders who have an interest in higher education. Duane likes to be known as just a guy trying to make a difference in education. Duane, welcome to SA Voices. Duane Bedell [00:01:52]: Hi. It's great to be here today, and I absolutely look forward to our conversation today. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:57]: It's always such a pleasure for us here in a student affairs podcast to feature a college president because we can always learn from the much larger context of higher education when we get to hear your perspective on things. You're the current president of Bay Mills Community College, which is a community college that does focus on serving American Indians and indigenous American populations in your part of Michigan. And we always love to start off of our episodes by asking our guests, how did you get to your current seat? Duane Bedell [00:02:25]: Well, there is a long story that's behind it, but I'm gonna do my best to condense this. I started off as a adjunct faculty member here at Bay Mills Community College back in 2000, and the way I was asked to teach a computer science course, it was I was the only available person really, and they called me and they asked if I could teach the course. And of course, being a shy, nervous IT guy at the time, I had thought there is no way I could stand in front of someone around a classroom, particularly for folks who are generally older than I am. Because at that time, Big Boss Community College had a lot of non traditional students, and I think I was 23, maybe 24 at the time when I was asked to teach this course. So I told them I would do it if they couldn't find anybody, but honestly, I don't think they even tried because they called back in about 10 minutes and asked, hey, we couldn't find anybody, so could you teach this course? So moving forward 10 years later, I decided to become a full time faculty member here at Bay Mills Community College. And at that time, I decided I wanted to try something a little bit different, and I wanted to learn a little bit about administration. So I started asking questions, and I became involved with the occupational programs that we have here, and got to meet a lot of great folks throughout the state to learn about the occupational services or our program through all of the community colleges in Michigan. And I just asked that one question one day to our president. Duane Bedell [00:03:39]: I said, you know, what do I have to do to become the next you? Because he had signified that he was going to try to start mentoring some folks who were on the team already to see. So I had a private conversation with him over coffee, and he gave me a couple of really good pieces of advice that I followed up on and made happen. And lo and behold, here I am. I I am sitting in this role for 5 years now. I'm loving every minute of it. And I can tell you one thing, just to see the students really light up from the day that they walk into our facilities until the day that they graduate is just what I'm in it for. It's just watching student success and watching actually my team grow here at the college as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:15]: That's an amazing glow up from IT guy at the college all the way through sitting in the president's office today. What is the most important thing that your community college is focusing on right now? Duane Bedell [00:04:25]: Really just to meet the students where they are at right now. Like a lot of other community colleges, we get students that come from all walks of life. We have students who are full time parents, who are single parents, who are working full time jobs when trying to manage their family. But one of the most important things that we do here is strive to meet the student where they're at in life and provide the resources for them. I think as the community college, it's very important for us to learn who our students are, to learn about their different learning styles, and find the resources that are available to fit them specifically so they can move forward in their academic program. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:01]: Because your community college is fulfilling a very specific need in Michigan, what are you doing that might be unique for Bay Mills that other community colleges aren't doing? Or what are you doing that you might think even be more cutting edge than what we might see at another community college? Duane Bedell [00:05:17]: So one of the things that we do here at Bay Mills Community College, since we're designated as a tribal college, is that we incorporate our culture into every aspect of our campus. You can walk around the campus and see things written in the Ojibwe language. You can learn about the Ojibwe cultures in your classes. But most importantly is that you get to feel the sense of community while you are here as well. And once we incorporate all of these aspects into it, we really give a holistic learning environment for our students. Cutting Edge technology, we represent several tribes throughout the United States, and we also have partnerships with other tribal communities throughout the nation as well. So the last numbers that I took a look at, we represent 23 streets in the nation, and then we also represent, I believe it's 31 or maybe 32 tribes throughout the United States, and that's through our online environment. We do have a a, a lot of program that goes online towards tribal students, or essentially everybody can take these courses from from their homes. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:13]: In the theme of past, present, and future of student affairs and really your case, higher education, I'm really appreciative of the of the way that you're talking about. You know, it's it's an experience where our culture is part of the curriculum rather than it's something that we're trying to squeeze in as something extra, which is what a lot of universities sometimes find themselves doing. So when you talk about kind of infusing or even weaving in Ojibwe culture into all aspects of student life, Can you give us a couple of examples of what that looks like in practice? Duane Bedell [00:06:44]: Certainly. So our instructors or every course that's offered here on campus, whether it's an in person course or an online course, has to have some component throughout the semester that evolves around culture, or Anishinaabe culture, I should say. And our teachers have became very creative at that and how to incorporate culture into their curriculum. So I will follow-up on one example that that I was really fascinated by, and this came from a college algebra course, actually. So, you know, trying to blend math with Anishinaabe culture, or Ojibwe culture, is kind of difficult to do. But our math faculty member decided to have students work on building traditional regalia, dance regalia, but using mathematics and doing that as well. Another item too is just, you know, incorporate what our medicine wheel is or incorporate what our 7 grandfathers' teachings are as well. And we've incorporated these types of teachings into every course. Duane Bedell [00:07:36]: In fact, it's it's mandatory for every course to have this embedded into their syllabus. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:40]: When you think about, syllabus. When you think about the past, present, and future of tribal colleges, you know, it's a bigger question than your particular community college. Can you tell us about the trends, for incorporation of culture or how we've kind of evolved over time in higher education to serve our indigenous American and American Indian population? Duane Bedell [00:07:59]: You know, that that's a really good question. Where we have come from the past is just recognizing who tribal communities are and recognizing and learning about the different cultures and the different traditions that are involved with the tribal communities. And finding a way to bring that into a college could be difficult because there's so many aspects on that. But being located in a tribal community makes it a lot easier for a tribal college to do so. And one of the things is to always have the open ear and always listen because I don't know everything about my culture. And there's a lot of folks that I work with that don't know everything, but we rely on input from our community, particularly our elders. And our elders are really guiding us on the ways that help keep our traditions and our cultures alive throughout the program. So that way, the future generation will always have that as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:47]: Let's talk about student affairs specifically in your collegiate environment. I would imagine that you're also doing the same work to incorporate tradition and culture into aspects of student affairs. So with the team that you're leading, how are you taking the literature and the best practices that student affairs as a profession puts forth and making them work for your environment given that we know that our research is really focused on usually predominantly white institutions, predominantly white students, traditionally aged populations, all of those things. Duane Bedell [00:09:16]: First of all, I have to say I have an excellent student services team. We really have a a team that is very dedicated to student success and finding the resources for our students as well. But one of the things that our team does is really take a look at the data. They take a look at the data from, from existing research, but they also take a look at ways that we can incorporate our tribal values into that as well. So they go about this to not only help students become successful, but also help them learn about their by providing a lot of events on campus. We host cultural events probably 3 to 4, sometimes 5 times a month and so on. But at the same time, teaching the students how to take that knowledge that they're learning and turn it into ways that they can become more professional and more successful by really just building the confidence that they can truly learn and that they can truly accomplish anything that they put their minds behind. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:08]: Anything that you're particularly proud of in your community right now in this regard? Duane Bedell [00:10:12]: Just watching our tribal community grow and become more educated and not be afraid of education. When I first moved to the community and as I stated before recording, I was a military brat, so I got to travel around the world. When I first came here to our community, there were only 2 tribal members that had master's degrees. So moving forward about 25 years now, we have a significant amount of tribal members who have college degrees, whether they're associate degrees, whether they're bachelor's degrees, master's degrees, and doctoral degrees now, which to me is a huge accomplishment to see where we were back early nineties to where we're at right now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:49]: You yourself are in the final stages of your doctoral dissertation, Polish. Can you tell us about your research? Duane Bedell [00:10:55]: So my research is really focusing on the success rate of tribal students who go to a tribal college versus students who go directly to a mainstream institution. And one of the emphasis that I really focused on is that tribal college, are they more successful when they transfer from the tribal college to go when they go to a university? And if so, what are some of the factors that that fall behind that? And one of the things that I really found was that the it's the sense of community at the tribal colleges. And the other part was that they're close to home. They have access to their families. Whereas if someone goes directly from a tribal community, which are typically rural areas, and move to a I'll use University of Michigan, for example, move to that campus. And just imagine how big that campus is. Their campus body is probably about sometimes 8 to 10 times larger than their entire community and trying to adapt to that, especially moving away from their families. So I was curious to see what are the success rates with the hopes of being able to develop a program that will allow mainstream institutions and tribal colleges to work together to support the, Native American students that attend their institutions. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:59]: That's an amazing outcome from that research. What would that look like in practice? I think what would look like outcome from that research. What would that look like in practice? Duane Bedell [00:12:02]: Yeah. I think what would look like is that both parties or institutions should have to sit down and share practices, knowledge, and share how they can engage particularly tribal students going to their institutions. But at the same time, folks who have tribal college also have to learn how the mainstream institutions work. So that way, they compare their prepared students as well when they make that transfer over. It's gonna take a lot of good conversations and a lot of planning, but I think it's something that can certainly happen. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:29]: There's a lot of social capital when we work with transfer students. And I think a lot of the things that benefit 1st gen students and what we know about 1st gen student research also applies to students who are transferring. And a lot of that has to do with simply doing the right onboarding for students on how to understand the system that they're entering. When we think about supporting students who are transferring from tribal colleges to, as as you term mainstream universities, what's the most important thing that the receiving institution can do to receive those students and set them up for success? Duane Bedell [00:13:00]: Just have available resources ready for them and be really prepared to have a method to get these students to ask questions. A lot of times from our Native Americans in particular and myself, I'm one of them. I was really shy and I didn't know what types of questions I need to ask. I didn't know where I could find his resources. Probably just me being stubborn too is that I can figure it out on my own. And I'm sure that there are a lot of students that have that same mindset. So just in taking the student, show them the resources that are available, but most importantly, show them and teach them that they can be comfortable asking any question that they need to ask in order to find the resources or maybe even if it's just a a tour of the campus or introduce them to some key staff members, maybe a professor, maybe, someone from the student services that can be their person to go to. And I think if a student that transfers over has an individual that they can talk to and ask questions, I think that's gonna help a lot. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:55]: And if I'm a professional right now working at a tribal college, what can I take from your research and implement at my institution? Duane Bedell [00:14:00]: What you can take from from my research is really just to learn more about the institutions that our students can transfer to. So here, particularly in the state of Michigan, we have a wide range of different types of universities that we can go to. We have our mid 10 universities. We have our smaller universities like Central Michigan or Ferris State University, I. E. Even Northern Michigan University. But learning about the resources on that campus and learning about the individuals that they can contact individually just to learn more about that. So if they were going to send a student to Northern Michigan, I would say, our team should know exactly who's your advisor, what programs are gonna be there, and in what ways can Bay Mills Community College help you become more comfortable when you're transferring over? And I think if we ask those questions and create those contacts, I think it's gonna help a lot of our students. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:46]: What do you dream about for your institution? Duane Bedell [00:14:48]: I dream about a lot of things, and I know that our institution really accomplished anything that we work toward because of the team that I have here. But first and foremost, I really just want to be the institution that is a place for folks to come and learn a little bit about themselves, gain confidence, and be able to leave our institution with the confidence to succeed at a mainstream university or enter the workforce and be confident about it. One of my biggest pushes as of late is to see if we can get more doctors out there that are in our communities. So, you know, it all starts with that conversation. And I really go around, even with some of my staff members here and students, is I know that they're completing the end of their studies here and they move on, I always plant that seed. Maybe you want to think about a PhD or an EdD. Maybe if you want it, if you want to come back and lead Bay Mills Community College, please let me know because I'd be more than happy to sit down and mentor you and show you the steps that you need to take in order to gain a position like this. So on. Duane Bedell [00:15:43]: But, you know, the biggest dream is just to be a tribal college that is well known throughout the state of Michigan and the nation for our program that we have here. And for folks to know how good of a staff that I have here. My team, like I said before, is phenomenal and we couldn't be where we're at today without our team. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:02]: You've mentioned the theme of mentorship a couple of times in our conversation is kind of a key to your success and hearing you moving others along the path pathway as well. What does mentorship look like at BMCC? Duane Bedell [00:16:13]: Really what mentorship looks like to BMCC, particularly, and I'm gonna use an example here with a couple of staff members that that I've been working with. And these are our our team members who graduated from Bay Mills Community College and had come on as employees at Bay Mills Community College. But just to watch them gain the confidence to earn a bachelor's degree, then move on to a master's degree. And the hope is now is to get them to a doctorial degree. But mentorship is just having just the day to day conversations, with them. And to me, it's not all business. I take the time to learn a little bit about their family life, take the time to learn about their hobbies, and then I find ways to incorporate those into the conversation when we start talking about leadership positions or the next steps in their studies just to see, you know, what can I do to really help them not be afraid to take that next step? And I'm as transparent as you can be. I would tell you the ups and downs of this position or any other position that I led, but I'm also will also find a way to find a way to strategize to overcome that obstacle as well. Duane Bedell [00:17:10]: To me, that's what mentorship is is what it's all about. So I Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:17]: think a lot of professionals look at that presidential position as an ultimate aspiration. Not all all of us are going to get there or not all of us want to get there. That's all okay. What advice do you have for those on the pathway to eventually sit in a seat like yours? Duane Bedell [00:17:32]: The advice I have is to not be afraid to take chances or take any risk and not be afraid to push yourself. There's going to be times where you are gonna have to sacrifice a lot in order to obtain the knowledge and taking the skills that you need to be successful in this position. But most important is to have an open mind. I've learned that over the last 5 years being in this role is that you have to have an open mind to everything, and that you also have to be able to have those conversations with your teams because you also have to realize that you're not the one that knows everything. That's when you bring your team, but you have to, rely on the feedback that you get from your teammates as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:10]: There seems to be, as of late, more and more pressure on college presidents to be increasingly infallible, which we know is ultimately an impossibility. How do you manage the pressure of that type of senior leadership along with the realities that, you know, you're a human being doing the best they can on a day to day? Duane Bedell [00:18:27]: You know, one of the things that I've learned a long time ago was how to balance my family life, my professional life, and my academic life. And I think that's how I became really able to manage the whole process of education, I guess you could say. So how to manage writing a paper or going through the school work to earn a doctor's degree, but most importantly is just being able to turn off the phone, I guess you can say, or turn off the emails I had a specific time to spend time with your family. I know that sometimes it could be difficult, but I think one of the things that I've learned about working here at Bay Mills Community College, and I've seen it transpire across the entire campus, is that it's okay to turn off your emails, it's okay to turn off your phone, and it's okay to go outdoors, take a walk outside, get your breath, and just focus on you and your family. And I think just relying on the support systems that that I have and the, colleagues that I have here, and just by not being a I guess I'm I'm not a high stress person, so it takes a lot to really stress me out, which really, really happens. But just being able just to step away, take a deep breath, and come back in and go back at it again, I think that's the way that it's going to lead you to success and prevent burnout. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:37]: What a gift to be able to give to your team as well to say, you know, it's okay. As the president, I'm turning off my email. As the president, I'm taking time for my family. And that I absolutely know is something that is felt by everyone who works with you. Duane Bedell [00:19:51]: So one of the examples that I I have learned, and I have told these folks across the nation because working with other tribal colleges and other tribal college leaders, is that all of my colleagues nationwide, they know not to contact me after 7 PM Eastern Standard Time because they know I will not answer. I will not look at my phone until the next morning. But if they send an email at 6:55 PM, I can respond real quick, and then I'll turn my phone off. But just send them that message out and send them that that those are the times that I will not respond because it's my personal time, it's my family time. And if you make that a priority, I think that's really gonna help be you be successful as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:24]: Little shift of topic here. I'm wondering if you can share if there's anything you wish that mainstream university administrators knew about tribal colleges and the amazing work that you are all doing. Duane Bedell [00:20:35]: I think it's important for mainstream institutions that are near tribal communities to take the time to learn about the customs. And I'm gonna share an example here. This individual was a a student here, but he was very soft spoken, very shy. And oftentimes, he did not look folks directly in the eyes as they were speaking. And I remember he came back to campus one day and asked how he could or if I had any advice for him because his professor had essentially told him that he was going to get kicked out of class for not maintaining eye contact and being disrespectful. After learning a little bit about the Ojibwe culture, it's in fact, customary for a lot of folks not to make eye contact, when they're having direct conversations like that. And just shedding a little bit of light on that, I think, can help, a long ways or help mainstream institutions understand their Native American population as well. The other aspect to it is to just really sit down and meet them where they're at. Duane Bedell [00:21:30]: And I understand that mainstream institutions are a lot larger than tribal colleges. So it's almost it's it's very difficult to really get to know the student, for who they are and so on. But just be able to find someone to to make that key contact with the native American students, I think it's gonna help with the success rates. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:46]: A lot of mainstream institutions are hiring tribal relations positions or creating indigenous American student centers, as the person who is hopefully working with your students to transfer into those institutions, what are you hoping for from the partnership on the other side? Duane Bedell [00:22:01]: Just to have a a really good close relationship and an understanding relationship with the student that's transferring in. Again, it's all about meeting that person, and and that's the common theme here. It's just meeting them, as a person and meeting them where they're at. And it and I think that's gonna go a long, long ways. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:16]: What about from administrator to administrator? Duane Bedell [00:22:19]: From administrator to administrator, just really take the time to learn about the Native American communities that you serve. And the same thing goes for me. I always try to take the time to learn about their institution, about their culture, and most importantly, you know, just to learn about the campus environment and how their institution works as well. I think it's very important for myself to learn as much as I can about the mainstream institutions as mainstream institutions should learn about tribal colleges and tribal students as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:49]: Dwayne, I'm going to go ahead and move us into our theme questions for the season. Again, we've been focusing on the past, present, and future of student affairs in higher education. So I'm gonna ask you 3 questions, 1 each on the past, present, and future. So with the past, what's one component of the history of higher education or student affairs that you think we should continue to carry forward or alternatively let go of? Duane Bedell [00:23:11]: I think that we should just carry forward the mission of making sure that your students have the resources to be successful. The student services in general, that's their main goal, is to make sure that their students are comfortable and that their students have their resources to be successful. If that were to go away, I think our students would be lost. So I I think we certainly need to keep that there. In the present, what's happening in the field of student affairs in higher education right now that's going well Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:32]: for us? What's higher education right now that's going well for us? What's really going well for us is that there is more communication across the institutions, that we're learning a Duane Bedell [00:23:37]: little bit more about each other. But most importantly, the data collection is getting getting a lot better. So we can use the data and actually turn that data to make key decisions on better ways to support our students. And I think all institutions are doing a great job at that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:56]: And looking towards the future, in an ideal world, what does the field need to be doing to thrive towards a future? Duane Bedell [00:24:02]: I think that in the future that they just really need to find ways to meet the current demands of society. As we know, society shifts and it shifts very quickly. And being able to keep up with those demands and the latest trends will help our student services meet our students where they should meet them. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:20]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:26]: Thanks so much, Jill. Really excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a ton happening. And there's a ton of things happening in NASPA. I've talked about this before, but one of the great resources that you have available to yourself atnaspa.org is the Leadership Exchange magazine. The Leadership Exchange is a the Leadership Exchange is a magazine that comes out a number of times per year and offers you an opportunity to be able to identify solutions for those of us in Student Affairs Management. Now, if you're not in a manager role, but have an interest in learning more about ways in which individuals think about management in Student Affairs, this resource is available to all NASPA members. One article that came out in the most recent article in the most recent Leadership Exchange, which came out in fall 2024, talks about transforming student affairs professional preparation. In this article, you get a great insight into what is happening currently in student affairs professional programs and what many programs are starting to do to look at preparation in a whole new way. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:39]: Whether you have a student affairs professional program on your campus or not, it is a fascinating read, especially for all of us that have gone through professional programs or are in the midst of going through a professional preparation program currently. Highly encourage you to check out that article. As I said, it is a free resource to all NASPA members. So highly encourage you to go and check it out for yourself. One of the other things that I'm going to talk about today is getting involved in NASPA. Each of you have an opportunity to be able to give back to the professional Association that you've been a part of for quite some time. NASPA is always looking for individuals that are willing to give their time and talent to providing insight into knowledge communities, conferences, and more to be able to find out about opportunities that currently exist. It's really easy. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:31]: All you do is go to the NASPA website, click on volunteer. And on that page, you're going to see a number of different ways in which you can volunteer and you can identify ways in which you can get involved. Basically, the easiest way to do that is to log in right through that page. You'll see that you can log into your NASPA profile. When you log in to your NASPA profile, you can then go into volunteer central. And in volunteer central, you'll see any and all opportunities that exist. I will tell you, as someone that's been involved with the knowledge communities for a very long time, there are a ton of opportunities to get involved. So I highly encourage you to find some way to give back to the association, to help the association to be stronger and be able to do what you can to be able to take even more out of your professional association membership. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:29]: Speaking of knowledge communities, if you're not involved in a knowledge community, I highly encourage you to check out all of the different knowledge communities that exist. This is a great time of year to go into your NASPA profile and update your interests. You can go in and you can sign up to be a part of any of the knowledge communities just by going in and updating your preferences. By going in and updating those, you'll start to hear from the different knowledge communities and see what's happening in those knowledge communities. You can also go on to the NASPA website, go under communities, and then click on knowledge communities and see the over 30 knowledge communities that exist. Well, what are knowledge communities? Well, knowledge communities are small communities based on functional areas and identities that allow you to find your place within NASPA. The k the knowledge communities are what we call KCs, serve as content experts and communities of support for you as you are going through your own professional journey. I know that personally, I've been involved with knowledge communities for quite a long time. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:35]: There are definitely knowledge communities that I identify with and I pull a lot from because of the work that I do on a daily basis. And I know that you can find that as well. You can be as involved as you want to be, or you can just be collecting the information. But getting involved is the first step. Getting involved in at least being a part of the knowledge community so that you can find out more is the right way to be able to help you to stay connected. So I highly encourage you to take advantage of these knowledge communities. Learn more about them, find out more, and get involved in some way to be able to increase your own ability to know about what's happening on other campuses, but also in the profession as well. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:22]: So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:43]: Chris, we always appreciate you keeping us updated on what's going on in and around NASPA. Appreciate you creating our NASPA world segments each and every week. And Duane, we have now reached our lightning round, and I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. Are you ready to rock? Duane Bedell [00:30:59]: I am. Let's do this. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:01]: Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Duane Bedell [00:31:06]: That's an easy one because I just did this. So astronaut, in the ocean, Metallica, wherever I may roam, and M and M lose yourself. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:14]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up? Duane Bedell [00:31:17]: I wanted to be a secret service agent. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:19]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Duane Bedell [00:31:22]: The previous president here, Michael Parrish. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:24]: Number 4, your essential higher education read. Duane Bedell [00:31:28]: Oh, that is tough to narrow. I have so many, and then so many titles are going through my head. I can't answer that. I got too many titles. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:34]: Number 5, the best TV show you've been binging lately. Duane Bedell [00:31:37]: Yellowstone. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:38]: Number 6, the podcast you spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Duane Bedell [00:31:42]: I actually haven't taken time to listen to too many podcasts in the in the last year. The last one that I listened to was the one that was featured at University of Michigan Flint. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:49]: That's a a shout out for, doctor Chris Lewis, our producer and audio engineer on this show. He hosts that show. And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? Duane Bedell [00:31:59]: You know, I just like to give a shout out to all teachers, all administrators that are out there. You guys are doing a phenomenal job, and then I can't wait to see what our future leaders are gonna look like. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:08]: Dwayne, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show today and to get to learn from your perspective about what it's like to be leading as a college president at a tribal college in 2024. And I'm sure others would like to learn from you as well. So if they would like to reach out to you after we air, how can they find you? Duane Bedell [00:32:23]: They can find me on LinkedIn LinkedIn just by typing my name in, or they can email me at dapadel, which is [email protected]. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:32]: Duane, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Duane Bedell [00:32:35]: Well, thank you for having me on this podcast. I certainly appreciated it, and I look forward to hearing more podcasts. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:46]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:28]: Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

This week on NASPA's SA Voices from the Field Podcastr Dr. Jill Creighton sits down with Marcus R. Langford, the Associate Vice Provost for the Center for Learner Diversity and Inclusion at Oregon Health and Science University (OHSU). Marcus shares his thoughts on leadership, diversity, and balancing a demanding career with family life. The Path to Leadership and Diversity at OHSU Marcus R. Langford's journey in higher education began with a personal challenge—an arduous college transition—leading him to become an orientation leader. This pivotal moment guided his career, allowing him to work in various capacities across the country, from Oregon State University to the University of Cincinnati Blue Ash. Currently, at OHSU, Marcus spearheads initiatives to foster diversity, equity, and inclusion. Throughout this episode, Marcus emphasizes the significance of collaborating with intelligent, talented individuals. He credits his ability to identify patterns, navigate complex systems, and engage effectively with people as critical to his professional evolution from a specialist to a generalist—a valuable skillset for anyone in leadership roles within student affairs. Doctoral Research: Black Male Engagement and Placemaking Marcus is pursuing a Doctorate of Education (EdD) with his dissertation titled "Making Their Own Way, A Qualitative Case Study of Black Male Engagement and Placemaking at the University of Oregon." His research shines a light on the engagement and sense of belonging of Black male students at predominantly white institutions (PWIs). Drawing from personal experiences, Marcus highlights the challenges Black students face in these environments. His findings reveal that while Black male students are actively involved across campus, they often find meaningful engagement in culturally relevant spaces like the National Association For Black Journalists and the Black Cultural Center. Unfortunately, these cultural groups sometimes face institutional barriers, such as restrictive catering policies that hinder the authenticity of cultural events. The Need for Institutional Support and Recognition Marcus's research underscores the need for institutions to recognize and support diverse forms of student engagement. Traditional engagement opportunities, such as student government, are sometimes less appealing to Black male students due to microaggressions and dismissive behaviors. Institutions must reconsider how their policies may inhibit students from expressing their authentic selves and engaging fully. A practical example Marcus discusses involves the challenges cultural groups face when trying to work with external vendors to provide authentic cultural food. Institutional catering policies often prevent these collaborations, leading to unsatisfactory event experiences that can affect student engagement and sense of belonging. Updating Theories and Practices in Student Affairs Marcus advocates for a shift away from the overreliance on classical student development theories that may limit students' experiences. He suggests that institutions should expand the scope of what is considered valuable student engagement, integrating culturally relevant activities alongside traditional ones. Additionally, ongoing education for faculty and staff is crucial to understanding the evolving needs of students, which differ significantly from previous generations. Mentorship and Professional Growth Mentorship plays a vital role in Marcus's career. Larry Roper, a seasoned professional in student affairs, has been instrumental in guiding Marcus, emphasizing the importance of not needing to be the smartest person in the room and the value of continuous learning. Marcus appreciates the influence of younger professionals in challenging historical practices and pushing for necessary changes within the field. Balancing Professional and Personal Life One of the most profound insights Marcus shares is the importance of distinguishing between professional and personal commitments. He stresses that while he likes his job, he loves his family, and it's essential to prioritize personal relationships. This perspective, influenced by his mentor Larry Roper, reminds us that systems are designed to function without individuals, so self-care and personal well-being should not be neglected. Conclusion: Moving Forward with Inclusive Practices As Marcus R. Langford continues to lead efforts in diversity and inclusion at OHSU, his insights remind us of the ongoing need for institutions to adapt and support the dynamic needs of their students. By reevaluating policies, expanding engagement opportunities, and providing continuous education for faculty and staff, higher education can create more inclusive and supportive environments for all students. Stay tuned for more enlightening discussions on "Dads with Daughters," and be sure to catch future episodes where we continue to explore the intersections of personal and professional lives in meaningful ways.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on essay voices, I am overjoyed to be joined by Marcus R Langford, who is currently serving as associate vice provost for the center for learner and diversity and inclusion at Oregon Health and Science University or OHSU. In this role, Marcus is responsible for providing leadership and vision for the center to advance OHSU's learner centered diversity, equity, and inclusion and belonging goals. This work includes providing educational engagement opportunities for learners, as well as working with institutional partners to envision and achieve a collaborative cohesive approach to the enhanced recruitment and retention of diverse learners. In this role, Marcus is fortunate to work with and provide leadership to a talented team of individuals committed to cultivating relationships, creating educational solutions, and interrogating policies, practices, and procedures in partnership with various institutional partners and constituents to build institutional capacity for transformative change. Prior to his OHSU work, Marcus was at the University of Oregon where he most recently served as dean of students. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:23]: Prior to U of O, over the span of 20 years in higher ed, he served in several roles with increasing levels of scope and responsibility at a variety of institutional types. Marcus has professional experience in a variety of functional areas, including academic intervention and advising, campus programming, crisis management, diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging, leadership development, multicultural affairs, orientation and new student programs, student involvement, and veteran student affairs. I also wanna take a moment to pre congratulate Marcus on his future defense of his doctoral dissertation. I'm so excited to welcome Marcus Langford to the show. So good to see you, Marcus. Marcus R. Langford [00:01:57]: Hey there. How are you? Glad to be here. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:59]: So for our listeners, Marcus and I have known each other for a very long time at this point. The very first time we met, Marcus was working at Oregon State in orientation and retention, and I was earning my master's. So we have been kind of at the same institution on and off a couple of times now. And so I'm so excited for our listeners to get to know you through your expertise and your research and and where you sit now. We always like to open our episodes by asking our guests how you got to your current seat and kind of teeing up from that journey out of orientation. How did you land into an AVP of DEIB space? Marcus R. Langford [00:02:37]: Glad to see you and talk to you again. Always fun to chop it up with you a little bit, and thank you for, giving me this opportunity. So whenever I talk a little bit about how I got somewhere, for me, I always have to start at the beginning. And so for me, starting at the beginning, you know, ensures that I let folks know that I am a Southerner by birth. That's a big part of who I am and how I see the world and how I approach the world. So I was born in Birmingham, Alabama, but I spent the vast majority of my growing up in Cincinnati, Ohio. But even though I spent more time in Cincinnati than in Birmingham, I still would say I'm a Southerner by birth. And so the vast majority of my growing up in Cincinnati, Ohio, and I'm a high school English teacher by training. Marcus R. Langford [00:03:19]: So my undergraduate degrees are in English Education and African American History. But how I got into the field was kind of typical or classic, and so much as I did not have the greatest transition to college. So much so that about midway through my 1st year, I vividly remember this like it happened yesterday, I called my mom and said, mom, I just don't know if this is for me. I think I want to drop out and come home. And in her infinite wisdom, my mom said, absolutely not. She said, dropping out is not an option. She said, you know, your your dad and I and other folks have invested too much time, energy, and effort into you, and you are more than capable enough to be successful in this endeavor. So she said, do one more thing, join one more club, one more organization. Marcus R. Langford [00:04:05]: And if that doesn't work, at the end of the year, we can revisit this conversation, but we'll talk about where you will transfer to, not the fact that you're gonna drop out. And so like any good Southern boy, I I did what my mom told me to do. And that one thing that I elected to do was to actually apply to be an orientation leader. And part of the reason why I did that is because even though I had a difficult transition or a rough transition, the one person that I actually was able to make some semblance of a connection with throughout my first the midway through my 1st semester and through my 1st semester was my orientation leader. I still remember her name, Amy Mandler. And so in typical orientation fashion, at the end of my orientation experience, she gave her email, and her phone number and said, if something comes up during the year, give me a call, and I'll see what I can do to help. And so even though I had a, again, a difficult transition, that was the one person who was somewhat of a lifeline for me. And so that one more thing that my mom compelled me to do actually was being an orientation leader. Marcus R. Langford [00:05:08]: But I still tell folks, even though Amy was a really, really great resource to me, I went into that experience with these nefarious purposes in my mind. Because in my mind, I was a black student at a predominantly white institution. And in my mind, I was gonna be the orientation leader that really kind of kept it real. But as you can imagine, for whatever reason, miraculously, I was selected. And as you can imagine, I had a fantastic experience. My experience as an fantastic experience. My experience as an orientation leader connected me to the institution, connected me to faculty, staff, and even other students in ways that I previously had not been connected. And so that really experience really was a pivotal point in my educational experience. Marcus R. Langford [00:05:47]: Not only did it change the trajectory of my educational experience as a student, but it ultimately ended up changing the trajectory of my life. So long story short, I ended up graduating and I set up my high school English teacher. So I taught high school English for a little while, but elected to go back to graduate school to get a master's degree. And I went back to Miami University where I did my undergraduate work, I got a master's degree in higher ed. And at that point, transitioned to higher education where I got my first job in orientation and new student programs at Oregon State University. So I spent about 5, almost 6 years at Oregon State working with orientation and new student programs. So summer orientation visit programs, the 1st year experience class before ultimately, transitioning from there to Rhodes College, which is a small private liberal arts college in Memphis, Tennessee. I ended up going to Rhodes to help them build a traditional summer orientation program. Marcus R. Langford [00:06:45]: So at the time, Rhodes was a small school, and they operated on the methodology that a lot of small schools did where they brought everyone to campus about a week or two before classes started. But what they found was that they were experiencing a high degree of summer melt because their students, all of their friends were going to orientation throughout the summer, coming home with schedules, coming home with IDs, coming home with shirts. And when you're a small institution that has a incoming class of a couple of 100, if you end up losing 5, 10, 20 students, that's a pretty big deal. So at Rose, I was hired to build a summer orientation program. So we backed up their fall orientation to a more traditional 2 day summer orientation program. So I spent some time doing that, but then at a small school, as many folks may know, you end up doing everything. And so that's where I started to get some more experience in academic intervention and crisis work and academic advising before ultimately leaving Rhodes to go back to Ohio where I grew up, to spend time working at the University of Cincinnati Blue Ash, which was a regional college of the University of Cincinnati. And for all intents and purposes, I was the chief student affairs for that regional campus. Marcus R. Langford [00:07:57]: And so everything student affairs related at some point kind of rolled up to me, and so that was career services, student government, orientation, multicultural affairs, Hispanic and Latino affairs. And so that's really where the breadth of my experience, started to, expand, a little bit, and was there for about six and a half, maybe 7 years before being recruited to come back to Oregon, to work at the University of Oregon. So I spent 7 years at the University of Oregon as an assistant dean, an associate dean, and then ultimately the dean of student. And that's where we came that's where we came back together. So that's where our paths cross stuck in. Spent 7 years there. Had a really, really good and rich experience there before ultimately making the transition to OHSU, which is where I am right now as the associate vice provost for the Center For Learner Diversity and Inclusion. And so I've end this role in Portland for just about 3 months now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:56]: And when we think about your journey in student affairs, I think you have a rich diversity of geographical experience in the field. We see folks kind of do both. Right? Either that are very anchored to one particular region or folks that kind of you and I both have gone have gone all over the country in kind of service of the profession. So I'd love to hear from you on as you've evolved in the past, present, and future of your career, how has that geographical space made a difference or informed the way that you're practicing in the field? Marcus R. Langford [00:09:24]: That's a very good question, and I'll actually add another layer to that. And so I think my geographical experience has had an effector, and I also would add a layer of institutional type. And so what I would say is when I look back over the balance of my career, I think the fact that I've worked in multiple states and locations and the fact that I've worked at multiple institution types, that has served to strengthen me as a professional. You know, when I think about, you know, my experience at Oregon State University, which was a large land, sea, sun, space, air grant institute spa space, institution. There are skills and things that I had to think about there relative to connecting with students and the mission of the institution that in some ways did, and in some ways did not transfer to my experience at Rhodes College, which was a private, liberal arts focused, 1200 student institution. And so they were yes, there are oftentimes some through lines that exist when we're talking about working with and supporting college students. But some of the things that my students at Rhodes were dealing with were qualitatively different than, you know, some of the things that my students at Oregon State were dealing with or some of my students who, were at a commuter school, like the University of Cincinnati Blue Ash College. And so again, for me, whether it be institution type or geographical in nature, there were just aspects of that that I had to think about differently. Marcus R. Langford [00:10:53]: And for me, I think that served, to enhance me as a professional. Again, it it it forced me to think about what I did, how I did it, and why I did it in different contexts. And so I had to be adaptable and make adjustments, based on where I was. It wasn't necessarily the ability, again, to pick up how I do what I do and just drop it part for parcel from one place to another. So yeah. So both living in a variety of different places and working at a number of different institutional types, without a doubt, has served to strengthen me as a professional in my perspective. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:28]: You also went from being a specialist in orientation to moving into a more generalist perspective as your career grew and you kind of moved upward in the hierarchies of student affairs. How did you manage to kind of acquire those skills as you went along that really served you from going, okay, I am a person who is implementing this program to now I'm a person designing this program to now I'm a person who has this program plus a couple of others. And then all of a sudden, you're holding all of the cards for a dean of students area. And at the University of Oregon, it's probably one of the larger dean of students areas I've seen at an r one d one. I think a lot of times, modern deans of students offices are really in the core of conduct and care, and maybe there are some other functions. But the University of Oregon has about half of the entire student affairs portfolio in the office of the dean of students. So talk to us a little bit about how you made that transition from your past experiences to the present of holding 13 departments. Marcus R. Langford [00:12:26]: You're spot on. The dean of students portfolio at Oregon at the University of Oregon was and is rather large, and it was a lift. I I think one of the things that made that doable is the fact that there were some very, very talented folks there doing some good work. And so I was able to lean into the expertise and the experience of folks that surrounded me. But I'll come back to that because I think that's one of the reasons that I can say that I think I was able to serve in that role relatively well. But going back to your original question, yeah, so, again, I started, you know, as a specialist with within the context of orientation and new student programs. And I actually tell folks that of all functional areas, I actually think orientation is a very, very good one that can prepare you to advance. And one of the reasons why I say that is there are actually a couple of reasons. Marcus R. Langford [00:13:16]: One is orientation is one of those functional areas where and I know you can say this about others, but you have to know a little bit about everything. And so when you think about kind of understanding the ins and out of an institution, and when you think about being able to communicate and needing to communicate the variety of what an institution has to offer to an incoming student to ensure that they can cultivate a pretty solid foundation in order to be successful, that translated to me as a professional. And so, again, as someone who started as an orientation professional, it was incumbent upon me to know a little bit about pretty much every facet of the institution. And so I think that's actually one of the things that I tell folks all the time that was a huge benefit to me starting out in orientation. The other thing associated with the functional area of orientation that I actually think served me well over the course of my career is this notion of being responsible and in a way needing to manage people, places, and things that aren't necessarily yours. And so again, as an orientation professional, it's imperative that, again, you marshal the troops that you don't necessarily supervise. It's important that you kind of manage and coordinate space that you don't necessarily own. It's important that you manage people in terms of how much time they get or not. Marcus R. Langford [00:14:42]: Because if everybody wants 5 minutes, if you give 5 minutes to 10 people, 15 people, those 5 minutes actually start to stack up. And so you need to be judicious about whether or not folks can get 5 minutes or not. And so I think those are all things that, although it was coming in a, specialist way, they actually prepared me to be a generalist and as I advanced my career. So those are just some of the things that I think in terms of skills that I got from orientation that actually were truly beneficial to me later. But in terms of transitioning from something that I know a lot about and have a lot of experience to starting to collect and be responsible for a widening portfolio. Yeah. That that was a transition. And I I think part of, for me, what allowed me to do that is that I place a priority on listening. Marcus R. Langford [00:15:37]: And so as I started to accrue some of these areas that I did not have tangible or concrete experience with, I recognized that it was important for me to listen, to the folks who were doing this work. And then I also recognized, in addition to listening, that it was important for me to invest time, energy, and effort to learn as much as I could about these areas. Now I recognized again that I wasn't necessarily going to be a content area expert. That's what those staff were for, but it was imperative that I had a general sense and a general understanding of the work that they did. And so, again, listening and this notion of being willing and or able to be a lifelong learner are things that allowed me to transition, I think, rather seamlessly into this role of being a generalist as I, continue to advance in my career. And I think one of the last things that I'll say is how did I manage this, and this is the part where I'll come back to u of o. One of the best pieces of advice that I got from a former supervisor who's now a mentor of mine is that she often talked about how one of the things that benefited her was this recognition that she needed to divorce herself from this notion that she had to be the smartest person in the room at all times and that she had to have the answer every time right then. And so when I think about my experience at U of O in managing a rather large portfolio, with a lot of functional areas and quite frankly a lot of things that I didn't have a high level of personal knowledge with. Marcus R. Langford [00:17:13]: Part of that was leaning into that I don't necessarily have to be the smartest person in the room all the time, and so that was really hiring and surrounding myself with smart and talented people and allowing them to do what they were hired to do. Now I will say, I think one of the things that, you know, again, that allowed me to be successful in that is what I mentioned earlier around learning and asking questions, and leaning into their expertise. But I also think I have the ability to see patterns. I have the ability to understand and navigate systems, and I think I also have the ability to work with people. And so for me, those were 3 of the things that allowed me to transition from a specialist to a generalist, and I think be relatively successful in that transition. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:12]: Listening systems and people, those are Marcus's magic 3 for achieving that AVP title. Now, Marcus, you're you're doing all of this while you also had decided to become a PhD student or doctoral student. And I remember sitting with you as you were starting your journey, and I I passed you a post it that said, hashtag doctor Langford 2025 or sooner. And I believe we are on track for that. And so I wanna say huge congratulations to you for getting that first full one through 5 submitted for review. That is an amazing step. I remember the feeling for myself, all of a sudden, a level of guilt just kind of lifted off my shoulders that all of a sudden the free time I would take for myself was not weighted that I wasn't writing or reading at the same time. But I'm I'm really excited to learn more about your research and your findings because I think it fits well with our past, present, and future theme. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:03]: And also really aligns with your journey and your story as a person who was seeking to find belonging in higher education at the start. So why don't you tell us the, at least, tentative title for your dissertation? Marcus R. Langford [00:19:15]: Well, thank you. Again, I do remember that conversation, and I do remember that post that I just moved into believe it or not, I actually still have it. I just moved into a new office, but I have a bunch of things that folks have given me over the time. And so since I'm still in the new offices and I just moved from Eugene to Portland, it's in a box in my garage with the rest of my office stuff, but I actually do still have that posted in a couple of other things that folks have given me. Yeah. So my doctoral work. So I am in the process of getting a doctorate of education, so an EdD, and the title of my study is Making Their Own Way, A Qualitative Case Study of Black Male Engagement and Placemaking at the University of Oregon. And so I would say, generally speaking, I've always been intrigued by the experiences of Black male students at predominantly white institutions. Marcus R. Langford [00:20:04]: And I'm very clear in a couple of places in my dissertation of practice that my interest in this is deeply rooted in my own experience as a Black male student at a predominantly white institution. And so my undergraduate and graduate institution, fantastic school in the Midwest when I was there, about 16,000 permanent students, but the institution exists in a town that had, at the time when I was there, about 9,000 permanent residents. When I was there, the number of black students so when you look at 16,000 students, the number of black students that we had never exceeded 500, and I think that's probably being even that is a little bit on the high side. And so, again, I had these material experiences around what it means to be a black male student at a predominantly white institution. And so first and foremost, again, I've always been interested in thinking about the experiences of those folks. And further, I would also say that while I've worked at a number of institutions, I've also worked for a number of predominantly white institutions. And part of my rationale in doing that is because I decided that it was really important for me over the course of my career to do what I can to be for other folks what someone was to me. And so it wasn't an accident when I was looking for jobs, you know, that I ended up settling at Oregon State for a little while. Marcus R. Langford [00:21:28]: It wasn't an accident that I ended up back at the University of Oregon. It wasn't an accident that even when I went to a small school experience, it was Rose College, which is, even though it was only 1200 students, overwhelmingly white, even though it exists within Memphis, Tennessee, which is a relatively diverse city. And so for me, again, thinking about the experiences of those folks is something that has always been important to me. A little bit more about the the the study. So one of the things that I've, been much very much interested in is this notion of blackmail engagement at predominantly white institutions. And so I talk a little bit about this over the course of my study, but I've always been interested in engagement. So when we think about involvement and engagement within the context of institutions, we clearly know that being involved and being engaged makes a material difference. And so students who are involved, engaged, generally speaking, they tend to graduate at higher rates. Marcus R. Langford [00:22:26]: They tend to have higher grades. They tend to have a higher level of satisfaction with their collegiate experience. So involvement and engagement matters. But one of the things that I talk about in my literature review is that there has been a fair amount of critique when we think about what involvement and engagement means and looks like. And so when we think about some of the foundational studies that we build our knowledge in higher education on, to put it plainly, that foundational knowledge, generally speaking, is built by white men who've studied younger white men. And while there's not inherently anything wrong with that, I think what these critiques have shown is that as we've built our knowledge on this, that has served to ensure that we don't necessarily recognize and understand the full range of what these things can and should be, and we don't recognize the full range of the experiences that some folks have. And so what even prompted this study was that I would have conversations with some of my colleagues and some executive level administrators, and questions would be asked, why aren't Black male students engaged on campus? Or why aren't Black male students taking advantage of some of these same opportunities that other folks are? Why aren't Black male students kind of involved in student government? Or why aren't Black male students, you know, kind of joining our historically white fraternities? Or things like that. And what I thought then, and what was born out of my study is that while well meaning, that type of perspective flattens the range of ways that black males choose to be involved and engaged on their campuses, and it also ultimately serves to release the institution from their inherent responsibility to be mindful of why folks are making some of the decisions that they're making about where they choose to invest their time, energy, and effort. Marcus R. Langford [00:24:28]: And so actually what I found is that black male students were involved across, the landscape of the institution, but there are choices that they made about where to invest the majority of their time. And so things like culturally relevant experiences was very important. And so, you know, they talked a lot about things like the National Association For Black Journalists. They talked a lot about the Black Male Alliance. They talked a lot about the Multicultural Center. They talked a lot about the Black Cultural Center. But in addition to those things, we also did have students who did research. We had students who were in IFC fraternities. Marcus R. Langford [00:25:08]: And so they did do a range of these things. But, again, I think it was really being mindful of the fact that they were making some particular choices based on how they would experience something. And that's actually one of the things that I wanted to bring to the forefront through this study. So I conducted 3 focus groups and a couple of follow-up interviews. And, again, I found that students are engaged across the landscape of the institution. But what they also were looking for was the institution to recognize that through the application of policies, practices, and procedures, that there were ways that the institution could better support the engagement and placemaking, you know, of these students. And so some of the things, again, that institutions don't think about, we talk about policies, practices, and procedures. A very trite well, it sounds like a trite example, but it's really meaningful is if you go to any PWI, one of the things that you typically will find is this back and forth with cultural groups and campus catering. Marcus R. Langford [00:26:08]: So what will happen and, again, it sounds trite, but walk with me. So what will happen is student groups, cultural groups, will often want to work with outside vendors around cultural food, but then you often have institutional catering and food services saying, well, we can do that. And students will say, well, yeah, you can, but, like, the food is not gonna be that great it's not gonna be that great or authentic or representative or correct or, you know, we wanna support this business in the community, and the waiver will be denied. Catering will do it. And in many instances, the food is not gonna be good because it's not prepared by someone of the culture, and the event will happen, but, like, students are like, well, this food really wasn't that great. And so, again, as an institution, those are the types of things that we don't think about. Typically, some of our institution folks within our institutions don't think about those as, quote, unquote, big deals, but those are the types of experiences that when taken in total really start to create issues where students, again, around have the ability to be engaged and and kind of make place for themselves. Another thing that came up was their decision making around how they would experience an organization or an opportunity. Marcus R. Langford [00:27:23]: So going back to this notion of, well, why aren't students in student gov these students joining student government, or why aren't these students joining what we would define as these classical engagement opportunities? The students would then say, well, why do I wanna subject myself to an experience where I know I'm gonna have to deal with microaggressions on a daily basis? Like, why do I wanna join this organization where I know folks are gonna say off the wall things to me? Why do I wanna join this organization where when I joined the concert board and I say, we want to bring this person, I'm automatically gonna get shot down because that's not the type of concert or music, you know, that folks want to do. And so students, again, are making decisions about where to invest their time, energy, and effort about how they will experience things. And I think that's another piece that sometimes folks in institutions don't really think about. They don't think about how students will experience these opportunities. And in not thinking about that, it releases them from, again, their inherent obligation to ask some pretty difficult questions of themselves of how are we inhibiting, you know, our students from being their true and full selves through the application of our policies, but then also not addressing what students are telling us about some of the problematic things that they experience. So, yeah, so that's a little bit. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:44]: It's a good reminder that our institutions are always microcosms of the things that are happening in larger society, especially because institutions are designed originally with specific intent on who they were serving, and those vestiges have definitely carried through the present day in in student affairs. And one of the things I most appreciate about the research that you're doing now is I think our master's programs for a good couple of decades now have done a good job of acknowledging who student development theory was written by and for. But it stops there, and it doesn't go the next step of saying, okay, well, now where are we where are we conducting research? Who are the people that are participating in our research? And how are we making sure that those perspectives are more well rounded. And so I appreciate that your study is filling a gap in the literature, but how can we change our systems to be more inclusive of the traditionally aged black male experience? That's not out there as boldly as it should be, especially given where we are in time. And there's also then an opportunity, I think, I'm I'm hearing, like, future publication for you on on how this will get out there. And I appreciate the framing too of saying, you know, the institution is not absolved of its responsibility. And we both have a mentor who has said in the past, you know, institutions are just buildings and people. And so because of that, that means we are empowered to change those institutions. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:02]: Given that and given your research, can you give us maybe 1 or 2 recommendations for practice? Marcus R. Langford [00:30:08]: Great question. So one, I think I would say it's important that we adequately invest in these organizations and these structures that we design. And so, again, I'll lean into my study participants. And so one of the things that they talked about was, so there is a black cultural center, and there is a multicultural center. But oftentimes, what happens is institutions will have or build these things to say, look, we have this, but what the students talked about is, well, I appreciate that we have this thing, but can we have a conversation about how it's on the edge of campus? Like, what does that mean? Can we have a conversation about how you built this building and there's only one person, you know, who's assigned to manage this building? So can that person get some help? They talked about things like having cultural organizations, but the rules under which they have to follow through student government and all these other things are often very, very difficult because of their relative size. And so, again, I I think one recommendation is to really think about whether or not we as institutions are adequately investing, whether that be human capital or fiscal capital, in these organizations and entities that are designed to support these folks. So I think that's one thing. I think another, recommendation is that I think it's really important to have some sense of ongoing, you know, kind of education and or training for faculty and staff. Marcus R. Langford [00:31:46]: One of the things that I spent a lot of time talking about in my role as the dean of students is trying to help faculty and staff and administrators, I'll just say administrators, helping administrators and the people who comprise institutions, helping them to understand and reconcile that who you were as a student and the student experience is qualitatively different than who students are right now and what the student experience is right now. So again, one recommendation is some, you know, training or development for these folks to help them understand, again, that who students are and what the student experience is right now is qualitatively different than who they were as students. And so it's really important that we think about whether or not the folks who run these institutions have a keen and clear understanding of what student needs are today. And so some of that can be accomplished through training and development. And then I think the last thing that I would say is so Sean Harper talks about culturally relevant engagement practices. And so, again, I think part of this is ensuring that the experiences and the opportunities that we offer to students are culturally relevant and accessible. And so, again, I think oftentimes we have a canon in terms of, like, what acceptable or good experiences and opportunities are, and so I'm an English major, and so I think it's part of what our responsibility is is to expand the canon of what we see as good and acceptable. And so again, there are many ways that, you know, black male students were and are engaged on campus. Marcus R. Langford [00:33:30]: And so some of that is around spending time with folks playing Madden, or some of that is, you know, being connected to each other off campus. And so I think it's incumbent upon us as institutions to recognize the inherent value, those types of things as well, and say and not necessarily get to this point of saying that, well, those are automatically less than joining student government, or that's automatically less than joining a fraternity, or whatever it is that we do. So, yeah, so I I I think those are a couple of things that in my mind were good pieces to consider, in terms of future practice. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:06]: Marcus, I'm gonna transition us to our theme questions for the season. So I have 3 questions for you, 1 each on the past, present, and future of student affairs. So we're gonna start in the past, and I'd like to know from you, what's one component of the history of the student affairs profession that you think we should continue to carry forward or alternatively something we should be letting go of? Marcus R. Langford [00:34:25]: Well, I'll actually lean into what we were just talking about. I think one aspect of our past that I think would help us is loosening our overreliance on some of our classic student development theory. So I think student development theory is important. It can be instructive. But what I've also found, and I even remember my experience as a newer professional, I think sometimes unintentionally, what that allows us to do is to put students in boxes, or it creates a scenario where, yeah, we create kind of parameters that are too restrictive for how we think and why we do what we do. And so one of my things about the past is I think it would be helpful if we weren't necessarily so over reliant on some of our classic student affairs theory. That's probably a bit of, did he really say that? But that's what I think. I'm Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:17]: with you on that one, cosigning that opinion. On the present, what's happening in the field right now that's going well for student affairs? Marcus R. Langford [00:35:24]: I think one of the things that from my perspective is happening that some people might not see it as a net benefit, but I think we have some younger professionals who are leading the forcing, encouraging, challenging us as a profession to ask some hard yet necessary questions about who we are, why we do what we do, and how we do what we do. To be clear, I thoroughly enjoy the work that I do. I thoroughly enjoyed the work that I did as a dean of students, but I think one of the things that I often say it was, I just tend to be one of those folks who don't say that I love my job. I like it a lot. I have a great affinity for it, but I tend to be a person who I reserve my love for things that can love me back in a tangible and concrete way. So I like my job a lot. I have a high affinity for my job, but I love my wife and I love my kids. And so I think presently, there are younger professionals who are having that mentality, and I think that's really forcing us as an institution to reckon with our reliance on, I'll say it, trying to pay people with and through passion. Marcus R. Langford [00:36:34]: Like, passion doesn't pay the bills, to be clear. And so I think presently, yeah, there are newer professionals who are asking some questions that are really, really forcing us as a field to contend with some of our historical practices that probably needed to be reconciled with a long time ago. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:54]: I just wanna say for posterity, I quote you on that constantly. I actually said it yesterday to somebody who was really putting in like a 90 to a 100 hour work week. Actually, not even in student affairs. It was in a private industry field. And he said, hey, you know what? I have a friend who has told me a long time ago, I like your job a lot, but don't love your job because your job will never love you back. And that is something that I've taken from your wisdom years years ago, and I I keep that with me. So thank you for that one. And now it'll be out for the pod audience as well. Marcus R. Langford [00:37:20]: Really quickly, to be clear, you know, I have leaned into that, but that's something that I got from a mentor of mine many, many years ago, Larry Roper. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:28]: Oh, I'm sorry. Of course. It's Larry Roper. Marcus R. Langford [00:37:30]: Of of course. That's a Larry Roper thing. Again, I I think the the important thing is, again, is this is all about systems. And so that's not to say that a system or an institution doesn't necessarily appreciate you or value you, but I think it's important to understand that there's a reality that the way that Larry put it, we were sitting in the library, and he said, Marcus, what you need to realize is if you and I walk out of this library and fall off the face of the earth tomorrow, the lights will still come on and students will still show up. And part of that is because by nature, systems are designed to persist. And he said that's not to say that we don't do good work, because we do. That's not to say that we wouldn't be missed, because in many ways, we would. But systems by design recalibrate to this point of homeostasis. Marcus R. Langford [00:38:17]: And so as a result, it's important that you are mindful and intentional to do what you can to take care of yourself because there's no guarantee that a system will. And so, you know, that's just something that I was very, very fortunate to get early on in my career, and it has been instructive for me over my 25 plus years career in this field. And that doesn't mean that I don't work hard. To be clear, you can ask my wife and she can cosign this. That doesn't mean that I haven't failed at that because in my mind, while I think I've done a very good job of maintaining balance in conversations with my wife and even with my kids, I know that there have been times that I've fallen short of that. That said, I think it's something that I've tried to consistently come back to, and I think that trying to get back to it has benefited me greatly over the course of my time in the field. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:08]: I don't know anyone who doesn't love a good Larry Roperism. And if you'd like to learn more from him directly, he was featured on season 1 of our podcast when Corliss was hosting the show. So if you wanna go back and take a listen, I just always appreciate hearing from him. And Marcus, our our final question here on the future is, in an ideal world, what does our field need to be doing to thrive towards our future? Marcus R. Langford [00:39:30]: I think I would say that it's incumbent upon us to ensure that our policies, practices, and procedures are reflective of who students are now and the needs of students right now. You know, again, we do ourselves a disservice when we frame and operationalize things based on who we were as students and, you know, what brought us joy as students. Yes. I I I think those things can, to a certain extent, inform what you do. And I'll say something here, and it may not be popular. But if you came into the field to replicate your experience for other folks, I would challenge you to think about that. It's not about replicating your experience. It's about creating, supporting, and sustaining conditions so that people can have a rich and meaningful experience, whatever that may mean and look like for them. Marcus R. Langford [00:40:27]: So for me, again, I think looking ahead into the future, it's important that our policies, practices, and procedures are reflective of who who our students are now and what their needs are now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:40]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:40:46]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world. There's a lot of things happening in NASPA. The deadline for the 2024 Leadership Educators Institute is coming up soon. The regular registration deadline closes on November 11, 2024. The Leadership Educators Institute is happening December 9th through December 11, 2024. This is a partnership between NASPA, ACPA College Student Educators International, and the National Clearing House for Leadership Programs. LEI provides a unique opportunity for all professional levels within our field to engage in critical dialogue to promote positive, sustainable change on their campuses. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:41:23]: If you are an individual that wants to connect and learn with other higher education professionals to advance student leadership on your own campuses, then the Leadership Educators Institute is the perfect place for you to go. You'll have the opportunity to explore proven leadership theories and innovative curricula that will help you to develop outstanding leaders on your campus. Just a reminder, the regular registration closes on November 11th, and you can find out more on the NASPA website. The 2024 Women's Leadership Institute is happening December 10th through December 13th in San Diego, California. The Women's Leadership Institute is the premier professional development program for women who aspire to be senior leaders in higher education. The Leadership Institute provides an experience that offers strategies for women to succeed in the higher education profession. Participants include women from facilities and operations, administration, auxiliary services, student affairs, recreation and libraries who share a passion for the profession and plan to lead with lasting impact. At this conference, you'll have an opportunity to come together with a diverse group of professional women to drive collective development, drive collective development, home leadership skills, share experiences about how to continue to provide adequate support for all students in a turbulent national landscape and create new personal networks. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:42:43]: Don't miss out on the learning and experiences offered at this special event. Find out more on the NASPO website. Also coming up on November 18th, there is a member briefing on translating data into practice, 20 24 NASPA top issues, findings and practical applications on campus. The NASPA 20 24 top issues results provide a snapshot of what senior leaders view as key priorities on campuses this year. This member briefing will provide you with an opportunity to get an overview of the top ranked issues, including centering the student voice, expanding access to mental health and well-being supports, facilitating cross campus collaboration, and more. This on top of examining how these trends shape student support services. A key portion of the presentation will highlight the prevalence of issues related to health, safety, and well-being and holistic student support efforts on campus and how institutions are leveraging NASPA's extensive resources and frameworks to strengthen their response to these issues. We hope you can join us for this session on translating NASPA's research findings into actionable strategies to support student success. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:43:56]: This is a free briefing that you need to log in to the learning portal atnaspa.org or go to learning.naspa.org directly to find this member briefing. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself, where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, Hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:45:30]: Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:35]: Chris, we always appreciate you informing us on what's going on in and around NASPA. Thank you so much for another informative NASPA world. And, Marcus, we are now at our lightning round. So I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. You ready to do this? Marcus R. Langford [00:45:50]: Let's do Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:50]: it. Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Marcus R. Langford [00:45:56]: Let's get this party started. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:57]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Marcus R. Langford [00:46:00]: A marine biologist. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:02]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Marcus R. Langford [00:46:05]: Larry Roper. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:06]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Marcus R. Langford [00:46:08]: I'll say the green book. I can't remember the title of it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:11]: We all know the green book. The student service Larry Roper helped write this one. Marcus R. Langford [00:46:15]: Yes. Yes. Yes. Foundational information. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:18]: Number 5, the best TV show you've binged lately. Marcus R. Langford [00:46:21]: I just started watching Operation Lioness and Deceptively Good. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:25]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Marcus R. Langford [00:46:28]: A Questlove Supreme. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:29]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? Marcus R. Langford [00:46:33]: Personal, I always have to give a shout out to my family. My wife, Mercedes, who loves me in spite of myself. And I also will just wanna give a shout out to the fantastic people that I spent some time working with at Oregon State Oregon State, at the University of Oregon, one of which is Chris Winter. Chris Winter is the person who recruited me to come back to Oregon, and I just thank the world of her. Marcus R. Langford [00:47:01]: And I'll second, cosign that shout out to Kris. She's somebody who I also have been very grateful to call a mentor in my career. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:47:01]: Alright, Marcus. We have reached the end of the road for our episode today, and it's been wonderful to hear about your research and your journey. If anyone would like to connect with you after the episode airs, how can they find you? Marcus R. Langford [00:47:11]: LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram are all Marcus r Linkford. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:47:16]: Marcus, again, so lovely to reconnect with you, and thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Marcus R. Langford [00:47:21]: Thank you, Jill. It's been a pleasure. Good seeing you and catching up today. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:47:30]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill l Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:48:08]: That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Exploring Institutional Intelligence and Student-Centric Approaches In the latest episode of NASPA's SA Voices From the Field, Dr. Jill Creighton welcomed Dr. Michelle Boettcher, an associate professor at Clemson University, to discuss a range of pertinent topics in higher education. With a rich background spanning nearly 20 years in residence life, various administrative roles, and extensive academic experience, Boettcher brings a wealth of knowledge to the conversation. This episode, delves into the nuances of institutional intelligence, ethical considerations, and the essential focus on student-centric practices in higher education. Bridging Law and Ethics: The Minimum Baseline Dr. Boettcher emphasizes a crucial distinction between meeting legal standards and upholding higher ethical standards. In one illuminating example, she discusses an accessibility issue where a building at Clemson University housed both office space and an honors residential community on the first floor. Although the building was ADA-compliant, the arrangement limited accessibility accommodations to honors students only. Boettcher argues that this situation, while legally acceptable, raised significant ethical concerns. She underscores that legal frameworks should serve as a foundational baseline, and institutions should strive to go beyond mere compliance to embrace more inclusive and ethical practices. Unpacking Institutional Intelligence: A Framework for Change One of the key highlights of the episode is the exploration of "institutional intelligence," a framework co-developed by Boettcher and Salinas in their new book Law and Ethics in Academic and Student Affairs Developing an Institutional Intelligence Approach, and is designed to understand campus culture and decision-making comprehensively. This approach integrates three main components: law and ethics, the institutional environment, and decision-making processes. Boettcher elaborates on how this model assists practitioners in navigating institutional culture, underpinning decisions with historical context, and fostering positive institutional change. By employing reporter-like questions—who, what, where, when, why, and how—this method helps gather and analyze vital information, ensuring well-informed decision-making. The Core of Ethical Practice: Human-Centered Policies Boettcher's commitment to student-centric approaches shines through as she emphasizes the importance of keeping students at the center of all institutional efforts. Drawing inspiration from Ruth Bader Ginsburg's dynamic view of law, she illustrates the need for adaptability and responsiveness in student affairs. Boettcher's approach is grounded in balancing control and care, aiming to build more collaborative and engaging environments for students. She also highlights the increasing recognition of student affairs professionals and their critical role in managing various campus scenarios, from everyday operations to crisis situations. Practical Applications and Reflective Practices Throughout the conversation, Boettcher stresses the significance of practical applications and reflective practices. Whether it’s onboarding new staff, managing crises, or implementing change, the institutional intelligence framework serves as a guiding tool. Boettcher also touches on the importance of taking time to pause and reflect, referencing mindfulness practices as a metaphor for the long-term benefits of reflection in professional settings. Merging Law, Ethics, and Practicality This episode of NASPA's SA Voices From the Field underscores the intricate balance between legal obligations and ethical responsibilities in higher education. Dr. Michelle Boettcher's insights remind us that effective student affairs work hinges on understanding and navigating institutional culture, centering student needs, and committing to continuous reflection and improvement. Her practical, human-centered approach offers valuable guidance for educators and institutions aiming to foster more inclusive and ethical academic environments. Listeners are encouraged to provide feedback, suggest topics, and leave reviews to help SA Voices From the Field continue reaching a wider audience with such impactful discussions. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on Essay Voices, we're welcoming doctor Michelle l Batcher, sheherhers. Doctor Batcher studies the overlap of student affairs and higher education practice with policy, law, and ethics. She examines how these areas intersect in the areas of career decisions, diversity, equity, inclusion, access, and belonging, popular culture, residence life, the scholarship of teaching and learning, and work environments. After working for nearly 20 years in residence life and student conduct, she's now an associate professor at Clemson University in the student affairs and higher education graduate program. She has a great job, enjoys life as well as work, and is the luckiest person she knows. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:00]: Michelle, welcome to SA Voices. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:01:02]: Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here and have some conversation today. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:06]: And while we are here primarily to talk about your new ish book, which is Law and Ethics in Academic and Student Affairs Developing an Institutional Intelligence Approach, which you coauthored with doctor Christabel Salinas junior, we always wanna start our shows by getting to know our guests. So can you tell us how you landed in your current seat at Clemson? Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:01:25]: Absolutely. So I'll go back to undergrad. I was an RA. And when I graduated, I said I would never live in a residence hall again. Then I went to grad school, and I worked in housing for almost 20 years. So just don't say never. I did that, worked different places. My undergrad's Iowa State. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:01:47]: My master's was University of Arkansas. I was at the University of Cincinnati. I took a year and well, first after that I was at Ohio University and then I took a year. Because when you work in housing, you don't always have time to think about, do I wanna stay in this work because you're just busy all the time? And I worked at a public radio station for a year in California, which was very fun. And then decided, yeah, higher ed is my thing. I was at Dartmouth for a semester and then moved back to Iowa, which is where I'm from. Went back to Iowa State for a practice interview and was there for 12 years. So I was there for 5 more years in housing and then right before my current position, I was an assistant dean of students and director of student conduct. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:02:35]: And I love that job. It's not for everybody, but I really enjoyed it. While I was doing that, I finished my PhD and started to look at faculty positions. Got the interview at Clemson and came and just really enjoyed the people, both the faculty and the students. And that's what I do now. I just am finishing up 10 years at Clemson, which is mind boggling to me, but I love it. It's the right job for me. It's a good mix of working on my own and then getting to spend really great time with students. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:03:09]: So, yeah, that's a condensed version of my journey. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:11]: I love that you've gone from that practitioner perspective to that kind of researcher perspective and and scholar practitioner because it really, I think, informs your position in your research about how you're going to be approaching challenges and those intractable problems that we're looking at in higher ed. I know a lot of faculty members have gone straight through that faculty track, and a lot of practitioners have never been in that scholar track. So giving those two perspectives some voice, how does that change how you approach your work? Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:03:39]: Oh, I love that question. So I think first and foremost, I'm always looking to partner with practitioners. I'm a faculty member. I will always be a practitioner at heart. And I worry sometimes that as faculty, we can get really excited about questions that may not be as pressing and relevant to practitioners as those questions that we can come up with when we're partnering with them. And I'll sort of reference the book in this too. When Chris and I were working on the book, it was really important to us to have practitioner voices in the text. And so almost every critical scenario, we coauthored with practitioners. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:04:22]: And then there are introductory quotes for the functional area chapters and the same thing. We did bring in some other faculty and academic and administrative leaders, but we really wanted this to be rooted in the day to day doing the work kind of thinking. So I love working with practitioners as co authors or supporting them because the people doing that face to face work with students and with incidents on campus, they're the ones who really know what the most important topics are. I very quickly, to my students, became just a faculty member, but at my core, I'm always, I think, gonna be a student affairs practitioner. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:02]: Leading into the book, how did you decide this was the topic for now? Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:05:06]: So I did not set out to write this book. I set out to find this book. I get to teach law and ethics every fall, and it is definitely one of my favorite courses to teach. And I don't know that it's the course every student looks forward to. And my coursework was very much studying case law and understanding how case law and policy inform what we do. And that's important, and that's part of the sort of context section of our textbook. But for me, I wanted, how do you think about it? How do you plan for things? And I also wanted an ethical component. Because while a lot of the decisions we make on a daily basis might have legal implications, it's the ethics. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:05:53]: That's, like, almost every decision we make. There's some sort of ethical piece informing that. So I looked and I just couldn't find the book that I wanted. And Chris and I had worked together on a different book related to hazing. And so I reached out to him and said, hey, I wanna put a proposal together. I know that we write well together. He also had practitioner experiences in areas that I have not worked in. And so I thought we make a pretty good team and he was really good. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:06:25]: But his first question was, are you sure I'm the person you wanna write this with? And because he said, I haven't done that work. I said, oh, but you have. You know, you you make those decisions. And he had the academic, like, advising and and mentoring experience, and I just haven't had that. And so that's where it came from. I was looking for a book for class, and I couldn't find the book that I wanted. And so then I was like, okay. I think at the time it was like, we'll just write it. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:06:56]: Yeah. So that just it's a bigger project than, just, but but that's how it came to be. And like I said, I love the topic, and I'm really interested in it. And I want it to be approachable for people. So that's where it came from. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:08]: I would also consider myself a bit of a case law nerd and definitely a policy nerd. One of the things that I've been doing with NASPA for many terms now is sitting on the public policy division and kind of looking at the lens of what are we doing in terms of policy information for practitioners, and there's the intersection of law and policy. And ethics is an interesting place to introduce that topic for aspiring student affairs practitioners. Why at Clemson and for your class in particular, do you choose to pair those 2 subjects together? Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:07:37]: So that predates me. That's how the course was set up. But I once I got into it and was working with it, like, it's never even entered my mind to separate them. Mhmm. Because I think we it kinda comes down to just because it's legal doesn't always mean that that's the answer to the question. And I'll give an example. My last residence hall that I worked in as a hall director, I was in a a brand new building, which is an experience unto itself. And if you're listening and you've had that experience, you know, everybody thinks everything's gonna work on move in day and it doesn't really. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:08:18]: There are tweaks still to come. Well, one of the things in this particular building, the first floor, half of it was office and meeting space and half of it was a residential community. And it was an honors community, which meant if you had needs around accessibility, unless you were an honors student, you could not live on the 1st floor. The building was up to code in terms of ADA and all of that. There were lots of really good spaces, but not on the 1st floor, again, unless you were an honor student. So during that 1st year, we had conversations about, can we move the honors floor? And our honors community was one where students tend to tended to stay for a couple of years, and students were not excited about moving until we were able to work with the honors program and expand the community. So the upper floors were full floors, so it was twice as much space. So that was kind of how we were able to make that change. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:09:19]: And it didn't mean that every student with an accessibility issue chose to live on the 1st floor because we have one student who was living on the 3rd floor, and he liked his community there. He didn't wanna move down to 1st floor. But for me, ethically, to not even have that as an option in the newest building on campus was problematic. So I think our our ethics and our laws, like the legal standard is the lowest standard. It's not what we aspire to. And so for me, that's where ethics come as comes in is how do we do the legal thing as well as we possibly can do it? Does that answer the question? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:58]: Yeah. I think we say the similar thing with policy, which is the policy is the floor, not the ceiling, meaning that the policy is the baseline expectation of how we are fundamentally providing access for someone or how we are looking at equity in other learning opportunities or what we expect from our students from a behavioral perspective. I think you and I both grew up in the conduct perspective. That conduct code isn't telling us what we can do. It's telling us what we can't do, and we see that all over the place. And so thinking about the book that you wanted to create for your class, you and Chris invented a framework called the institutional intelligence approach. And when we think about this season of our podcast theme, the past, present, and future of student affairs, this institutional intelligence approach to me frames the questions we have been asking in the past, examines the challenges of the present, and gives us a framework to look towards institutional decision making in the future. So can you talk to us a little bit about what is institutional intelligence? Do you and Chris have framed it in your work? Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:10:58]: And I love the way that you put that in terms of past, present, and future. I'm working with students right now on a project using it around the job search, which is future oriented. But absolutely, it's really, I think, a pretty simple model. And so institutional intelligence is at the center. And it's always in flux because there's change all the time on campuses. So it's never that you reach the now I know everything about my institution. It's a growing, evolving kind of thing. And the model, it's 3 pieces. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:11:35]: So on on one end, you have law and ethics. And I would put policy in there. I would put procedure can be part of that as well. But that's sort of the guide. Those are the guidelines. And then in terms of the law and policy piece, the ethics is how do we enact that. And so those help to set the stage for what's the culture on campus. The other side is the who, what, where, why, when, how questions. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:12:04]: And using those, the way that we talk about them in the book is as you navigate institutional culture, how can you build your awareness or your intelligence about a given campus? It could work for another organization. It could work in another context, but you can go through. So just thinking of who's your supervisor. Right? So who are they? What is your relationship with them? How long have they been on campus? How long have you been on campus? You just can go through the questions to kind of anticipate or reflect or again to your point in the moment when you're dealing with something, who needs to know about this? A student just shared something with me. Who else needs to be informed? What's our process for communicating that? When do I need to make sure other people are aware of this situation? And so it really is and it was not a starting point for the book. It came up as we were talking through other things, and it's like this could really be helpful. And again, coming from housing and conduct where there is a lot of crisis, you can get so overwhelmed with whoever is right in front of you in the moment that you can miss other things. And so this model is meant to sort of give you a moment to think about it. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:13:21]: And that moment may come it might come during the event, but it might come after the event. So you're using it to look back and reflect on what did we do? What would we wanna do differently? How did we communicate with the community about this? And it might be used to look forward in terms of changes that we might wanna make in case this situation comes up again. But I think a lot of people use at least parts of it intuitively. We want to understand the place where we are or the situations that we're in. And so we just put a little more detail to it and a little more formality and structure to what a lot of us do instinctively, I think. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:01]: Let's back up a minute. And can you define institutional intelligence as you and Chris use it in your book? Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:14:06]: Yeah. So the idea of institutional intelligence is really being aware of the culture of the place and understanding how does it work. I would say at the core, institutional intelligence is knowing your place in the larger picture. And it's understanding, again, policy history is really important. When I teach law and ethics, I talk about the idea of the random campus policy. Every campus has this weird policy that you've never heard of anywhere else. It's almost always the result of a thing that happened, right? There's a story behind those and sometimes we can get to those stories and other times It's so far gone that the story is lost, but the policy remains So it's about awareness. It's about just understanding how things work in an effort to understand how to make things happen, how to create change, or how to sort of engage in ongoing improvement, things like that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:10]: And when we move into the framework that the 2 of you have developed, you mentioned that you're looking at what I would call the reporter questions. Maybe when we first learned in early schooling years how to interview someone or how to ask a question or how to write an article for something, we're looking at that who, what, where, when, why, how, the 5 w's plus how questions. Tell us about how you arrived at these questions, which are well known in American journalistic culture, but transitioning them into a higher ed context. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:15:39]: It's hard not to think of these questions because, like you said, they're just so embedded. We use them, like you said, in reporting. We use them in writing. We use them in understanding, and everybody kind of knows them. And so I think that was part of the appeal. You know, we weren't looking to make something that was unapproachable because the harder it is to understand, the less utility it has. And so using them in our context, it really is just a little bit of a reframe. In a way, a reporter uses them to gather information for the story, which is their work. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:16:16]: In our thinking, we use them to gather information for student affairs work. So asking who within the context of higher ed. We grouped why, when, and how together because those are a little bit more about action. Why is sort of the bridge. Right? It's the bridge between what's happening, what should happen, and how to make it happen, and when and how is putting it into it being whatever it might be. It could be a policy. It could be a crisis response. It could be a supervision strategy. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:16:53]: But those are more the task things and why bridges between the information gathering and the putting into action. And it's again, the comfort that I think a lot of people have with it just made it very appealing. We found ourselves asking those questions as we were building the book and especially as we were writing the critical scenarios. They just kept coming up and over and over again. And so that was sort of the seed that grew into the model. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:22]: You've already mentioned that you're using this model with your current students in the job search in terms of application. You've put some examples in the book around kind of deconstructing university responses to freedom of expression components. How would you envision a practitioner taking this model and applying it to their work? And when does that happen? And what do you hope the outcomes will be? Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:17:42]: So I'm a big fan of the model. I think that there is utility for it in so many different ways. The first thing that comes to mind for me is onboarding. Helping someone understand and I would say this doesn't have to be a person new to an institution, but particularly in that case, it could be really helpful. But it could be I'm moving to a new functional area on the same campus. It could be I'm getting a new supervisor. There are lots of different ways, but it is a great tool for adaptation and acclimation. So navigating change or planning to navigate change for implementation as we're doing this and as we're going through whatever the process might be. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:18:28]: I tend toward crisis just because my work experience involve that a lot, but it could be rolling out a new mission statement. Who do we want involved? Who should have input? How do we wanna build the process to move forward? When do we wanna do this? When does it make sense? I also think a really valuable and I would say based on my own experience. So this is, anecdotal, not research driven. But where we miss the opportunity to learn the most is in that reflective stage. We're so busy and there are so many things happening all the time. We don't always carve out time to reflect after. And again, it could be after a crisis, but it could be after, say, you're moving to a cluster higher model in your area. Reflecting on what worked, what didn't, who's involved in that reflection, when do we do it? Do you do it right away? Do you wait 6 months? Do you do it more than once? So I think it works in really the big aspects. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:19:34]: So the creation, ideation, visualization stages of things. It works in supervision, group dynamics, team development sorts of things, and it works in looking ahead and planning, anticipating. It's just an easy model that has pieces that fit into all of the different sorts of activities and conversations and planning that we do and beyond higher ed. But I'm focused on higher ed because that's where I wanna be. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:07]: In the book, there is a table that I like called the ultimate cheat sheet for critical thinking using this model. And so we've talked about kind of the big buckets of the who, what, where, when, why, how. But what I like about the cheat sheet is that it breaks down into more specific subquestions that could be used. I'm just gonna share some of them with our listeners. So if you wanna go pick up the book, you can kind of understand a little bit more about what these buckets might represent in practice. So in the who or whom question, you might ask, who made a decision or decided about the situation, or has anyone else faced the situation? In the what bucket, we might have what are the strengths and weaknesses of those who were involved or effective, or what's another perspective or alternative to the situation in the way that it was managed. In the where, we're looking at things like where's the most need for a specific resource or support in the situation, or, where can we get more information is a is a great question we should always be asking. In the when we have, when did it occur, when's the best time to act? And That's a great reflection question for practitioners who are looking to implement change or even make a response to something that could have been a crisis on your campus. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:15]: In the why, we have why is this situation a problem or a challenge? And I don't think we stopped to ask that question a lot. The why is this happening, why now? Because as responders in student affairs, we're often looking at, okay, what should we be doing? And I think the impetus for the why question can help us actually solve the problem because we might be getting to the root a little differently. And then finally, in the how bucket, how will we approach this situation safely? How does this response or decision harm us or others? So I think it just gives us a nice framing of, hey, let's pause. And one thing we don't do in student affairs a lot is pause. Yeah. So thank you for giving us some of those questions that I think you're right. We're already doing, but we don't necessarily put in one place. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:21:58]: And the idea of the pause, I'm so glad that you brought that up. There's a story that I like about this man and he goes to a teacher and asks, I'm really busy, but I know I need to meditate. How long do I need to meditate? And the teacher says, about an hour every day. And the man says, I don't have that kind of time. I can't do it for an hour every day. And the teacher says, okay. Then 2 hours a day. And I think about that in terms of what you were just sharing because that pause, it does take away time in the moment, but the time that it saves down the road and the clarity that it can bring, it's an investment forward. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:22:37]: And, yeah, it takes some time in the moment. But if you don't reflect, you end up doing the same things over and over again that may or may not be in the best interest, not only of the students involved or the faculty or staff involved, but in terms of your own team and your own I don't wanna say productivity, but your own rootedness in the work. Because more committed and energized and understanding ways instead of that's just the way that it is. Lora Phelps [00:23:13]: What are the other major takeaways that you're hoping readers of the book will keep with them? Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:23:18]: So I will share that one of the things and Chris and I definitely wanna acknowledge doctors Mimi Benjamin and Jody Joseph Banger who worked with us and supported us through the development and the submission of the book. One of the things for me is I use humor a lot, and I use it in my teaching. And I wanted this to be as enjoyable as this kind of a book can be. So there is some humor in there. Chris came up with this great concept of the onion. And to understand what issues are, you have to get to the core of the onion and an onion is layered. And I think we even have in there sometimes it will make you cry a little bit. But we tried to use examples like that. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:24:05]: You know, we use real life examples. And again, the partnering with practitioners was really important to us. But there are ways to make scholarship approachable and enjoyable. And there are also scholars who write and use language that creates barriers and hierarchy. And we did not wanna do that. We really wanted this in the hands of practitioners, people using it in classes, and providing students a way of engaging with what can be really challenging. The issues that our students and our higher education communities are facing are heavy, and they're challenging. And there can be joy, and there can be laughter in the work as well. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:24:48]: So I think that's one of the things I'm most proud about. Again, thanks to Mimi and Jody. There were a few things in there that they're like, yeah. It's funny, but I don't think you really want this in the book. And I would then go to Chris and say, it is funny. And he would say, yeah, but I think they're right. So it's, I think, an appropriate amount of humor. But I do think that in the end, we're human beings, and we're navigating our lives and building our stories. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:25:15]: And for me, humor and love go hand in hand. And so that's part of what underscores the book is I hope that people receive it as a book of care, not as a directions or I don't want it to be rigid because policy is really not rigid. It can look that way on paper, but when it comes to implementation and meaning making, it is more malleable. And if we don't bring care, we can shape it in ways that do harm rather than in ways that ultimately it should be something that supports healthy communities and places where people can thrive and grow. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:56]: Michelle, we're gonna transition into our theme questions for the season. So first, I'm going to talk to you about the past, which is what's one component of the history of student affairs that you think we should continue to carry forward or alternatively let go of? Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:26:11]: So I would say something that we should carry forward is centering students. And I say that because while I think for the most part we do that, where we are right now, and one of my go to people or one of the people I admire very, very much is justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. And she talked about law as a pendulum. And it's not static. It's always in motion. And sometimes it's a little more where we want it to be, and sometimes it's a little more where we would rather it not be. And there are people at either ends of that. And so we're all comfortable at times, and we're all uncomfortable at times. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:26:55]: And so I say centering students moving forward because we are in, I feel like right now, a place where I worry that we are being pushed to center law, policy, and politics rather than centering students. And this is not the first time we've been here. I know it for me, it can feel very scary at times. But if you look back over the history of higher education, this is common and it's where the pendulum is in the moment. I want us to carry that forward and I don't really have a fear that we won't. I think the people who are drawn to this work are drawn to this work because of the experiences they had, the experiences they didn't have, and what they want to create for other people as they're going through their higher ed experiences. So we can get pressured or it can get easy to get caught up in other things. But in student affairs, if at some point in whatever our process is, we're asking, is this what's best for students? I think we're gonna be okay. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:28:01]: And sometimes we have to compromise on that a little bit because things we don't always get to be the boss of all the decisions. But that's something that I would say, while it originally probably started over controlling students, the way that this work has emerged has really been about caring for students more than controlling. But again, we go back and forth on this and but that's something I would really like for us to hold on to. And I'm happy and proud to say I know lots of people who are doing exactly that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:31]: Moving into the present, what's happening in the field right now that's going well for student affairs? Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:28:35]: I think that student affairs is I don't know if rising in prestige is the right way to say it, but I think because of different things that have happened and are happening, I think people understand we need student affairs because a lot of times college presidents, particularly at 4 year institutions, come from the faculty route or more and more they're coming from a business route. And while those leaders bring certain strengths, they don't bring the strengths of dealing with student behavior. And stop it is generally not gonna work with students. And so I think that the role of divisions of student affairs and the functional areas that are really student facing, I think people are understanding we need people with that kind of expertise to navigate not just when things go poorly, but when things go well. We need to understand and I'll use just because it just happened when the Vanderbilt football victory. They're walking the goalpost 3 miles to the river. Well, sure, there's law enforcement involved with that. There's policy and things like that. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:29:57]: But in terms of communicating to students and balancing the celebration with the responsibility, we're the ones who know how to do that. I worked for a vice president at one point and his philosophy was we do the things other people don't wanna do. Well, I think that's true to an extent. I think now people are understanding we do the things other people can't do. And so it's faculty matter, administrators and leaders matter, but student affairs people, they're the ones who really are dealing with some of those really big issues, whether it's the recent hurricanes on campus or celebrations or whatever it might be. So and I can be naive, and maybe that's not exactly true. But I see more examples of consultation rather than direction from the top down in terms of working with student affairs practitioners. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:51]: And looking towards the future in an ideal world, what does the field need to do to thrive towards our future? Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:30:57]: We have got to tell the story of what we do And whether that's assessment, whether that is more practitioners in public media, there's the joke of you can't really explain what student affairs is. That's true. It's a weird kind of thing that most people don't understand, but you can tell the stories of specific things that we have done and the way that we make a difference. And we do that in partnership with students, but any chance that someone has to share information about what we're doing and the difference that we make, that's just gotta continue. And I'm I'm a storyteller at heart, so there are lots of different ways to do that. Could be being on a podcast. It could be writing for a publication. It's great to do things at conferences. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:31:46]: It's important to do that. And could you do something like that for your city council? Could you do something like that for maybe even local schools talking about transition. And we do that in the practice of the function of our work. But the more that we can get out and tell the stories of how we make a difference. And it's not just about preserving roles on campus, but it's really about letting families and students and communities know about the resources that we have. It always hurts to find out a student has been struggling for weeks or months when we have the people, the places and the things that could have helped them through whatever it is they're navigating. But that storytelling, I just can't stress it enough. It's really essential and we've all got the stories. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:32:36]: We don't have to come up with things. We all carry those with us every day. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:40]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:46]: Thanks so much, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a ton of things happening in NASPA. The 2024 Leadership Educators Institute is happening December 9th through December 11th in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. This is a partnership between NASPA, ACPA College Student Educators International, and the National Clearing House for Leadership Programs. LEI provides a unique opportunity for all professional levels within our field to engage in critical dialogue to promote positive, sustainable change on their campuses. We all know that leadership is an integral competency for our profession. The leadership development of students is an important and ongoing process that requires commitment from both students and staff. Student affairs professionals and other university administrators play an essential role in coordinating, shaping and evaluating the leadership development of students by designing leadership courses and programs, creating co curricular opportunities and utilizing emerging technologies. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:47]: The Leadership Educators Institute has a rich history of convening professionals committed to leadership development for nearly 17 years. This Institute creates a space for student affairs administrators, scholars, and practitioners to discuss and advance current leadership topics. As mentioned, the conference is from December 9th through December 11th in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Registration is still open with regular registration deadline coming on November 11th. Get more information on the NASPA website. The 2024 Women's Leadership Institute is coming up also in December, December 10th through 13th in San Diego, California. The Women's Leadership Institute is the premier professional development program for women who aspire to be senior leaders in higher education. The Women's Leadership Institute provides an experience that offers strategies for women to succeed in the higher education profession. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:35]: Participants include women from facilities and operations, administration, auxiliary services, student affairs, recreation, and libraries who share a passion for the profession and plan to lead with lasting impact. You can be a part of a special program for women seeking to become leaders in higher education administration and student affairs. This institute is co produced by several higher education associations and is a unique program that will bring together administrators from across campus functions to help you hone your leadership skills for working in a rapidly changing environment, develop a better understanding of the campus as a workplace and culture, share experiences with others about how campuses are adapting and adjusting to the new reality and create new personal networks and networking skills to better tap the higher education community. Registration is still open and you can find out more on the NASPA website. The 2024 Red Ribbon Week Campus Video PSA Contest is currently open. This annual contest aims to promote the importance of living a drug free lifestyle. Just recently, NASPA announced that through the campus drug prevention dot gov website, your campus can submit a campus video PSA to promote the importance of preventing illicit drug use and legal drug misuse among college students. If your campus wishes to do this, you would create a 30 to 60 second video PSA showcasing your campus' commitment to a healthy drug free lifestyle. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:05]: You can submit your entries until November 4th and there's some great prizes for the winners, including a first prize of $5,000 to to support the winning campuses, the winning campuses efforts to prevent drug misuse among their students and a recognition plaque. Beyond this, it's a great opportunity to be able to bring your whole campus community together for a common goal. Find out more at campus drugprevention dot gov. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways, because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself, where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, Hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:27]: Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:55]: Chris, thank you again for all of the work that you do to keep us informed on what's going on in and around NASPA. And, Michelle, we have reached our lightning round. So I have 7 questions for you. 90 seconds. Ready to rock? Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:38:08]: I'm ready. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:08]: Okay. Number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:38:13]: It would be I don't know that this puts me in a positive light, but I love Apex Predator from the Mean Girls soundtrack. So I would go with that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:22]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:38:26]: A writer. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:26]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:38:29]: Frank Robinson. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:30]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:38:32]: Oh, well, my book. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:35]: Number 5, the best TV show you've been binging lately. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:38:38]: I am watching right now the Gotham series, which I haven't decided if I like it or not, but I love Batman. So that's what I'm watching. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:47]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:38:51]: Criminal. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:51]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:38:55]: Yes. Absolutely. Shout out to Chris Salinas. Thank you for everything. And to my partner, Leslie, who endured the process of me writing the book as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:05]: Like a second dissertation all over again. Exactly. Well, Michelle, it's been wonderful to get to know you today and learn more about your and Chris's work on institutional intelligence. If anyone would like to follow-up with you after the show, how can they find you? Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:39:17]: Yeah. So the best way to reach me is through email. I my email is my to do list, and I'm very good at keeping up with that. That's m as in Michelle, and then the first part of my last name, [email protected] Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:35]: dotedu. Michelle, thank you so much for sharing your voice and your institutional intelligence with us today. Dr. Michelle Boettcher [00:39:42]: Jill, thank you for the invitation. This has really been a pleasure, and you have a great demeanor. You made this very easy and very pleasant, and all the best moving forward. But thank you again for your time. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:57]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill l Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:39]: Special thanks to the University of Michigan- Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In the latest episode of NASPA's SA Voices From the Field, Dr. Jill Creighton sits down with Mike Segawa, an esteemed student affairs professional with over 40 years of experience, to delve into the evolving landscape of student affairs. Mike shares his invaluable insights on the importance of storytelling, professional development, and the challenges facing the profession today. The Power of Storytelling in Higher Education Storytelling holds a unique place in academia, especially within student affairs. Mike Segawa underscores the value of storytelling not just for engaging students but also for communicating effectively with cabinet members, board members, alumni, and presidents. Particularly in the Pacific Northwest and among indigenous populations, storytelling is a revered cultural tradition. It serves as an entertaining and less threatening way to convey significant impacts and digest information. Through stories, professionals can humanize data and present compelling narratives that illustrate the importance of their work. Grad Prep Programs: A Traditional Path with Modern Challenges Mike reflects on the traditional career trajectory in student affairs, from resident advisor (RA) to vice president. However, he acknowledges that this path is becoming less common, as many professionals now enter the field from diverse backgrounds. Mike's own graduate program was extensive, covering legal issues, counseling, diversity, and history. Today’s programs, constrained by shorter durations, struggle to fully prepare students for the complexities of modern student affairs roles. This gap necessitates enhanced and ongoing professional development. Professional Development: Beyond Conferences Practical training such as graduate assistantships (GAships), internships, and practicum experiences are crucial but vary greatly in quality. According to Mike, professional development should extend beyond national conferences. Local and regional opportunities, as well as diverse and structured activities, are vital for continuous growth. Mike stresses the need for purposeful professional development plans that are aligned with individual career aspirations and institutional goals. Sustaining a Career in Student Affairs: Combatting Burnout The discussion also touches on the increasing burnout among student affairs professionals, exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic. Dr. Jill Creighton notes that the complexity of roles has grown, encompassing more legal and regulatory challenges. Mike advises maintaining strong personal relationships and taking regular vacations as essential strategies for resilience. He emphasizes that supervisors must model this behavior to set the right expectations for work-life balance within their teams. The Dual-Edged Sword of Technology Technology has fundamentally changed how students interact with each other and with institutions. While beneficial, it also presents challenges, particularly through social media, which can sometimes cause harm. Mike highlights the importance of ensuring a balanced and positive experience for students, fostering both intellectual development and joy during their collegiate years. Looking Ahead: Advocacy and Equity Mike Segawa advocates for a proactive approach in engaging with public entities like legislators and civic leaders. By sharing data-driven stories, student affairs professionals can better demonstrate their contributions to education and gain support. He also discusses the ongoing challenge of promoting diversity and inclusion, noting the need to constantly justify these efforts in an increasingly scrutinized public and political environment. The Enduring Impact of Student Affairs Mike Segawa's insights highlight the critical role of storytelling, the necessity of comprehensive professional development, and the enduring challenges faced by student affairs professionals. His advice and reflections serve as a guiding light for current and future practitioners, emphasizing the importance of balancing work and life, leveraging technology wisely, and advocating for equity and inclusion in higher education. For more insights and to hear the full conversation, tune into NASPA's SA Voices From the Field, where we explore the multifaceted world of student affairs and the voices shaping its future. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on SA voices, we are honored to welcome Mike Segawa. Mike served as an SSAO for over 16 years at the University of Puget Sound, Pitzer College, and the Evergreen State College. During those times, his staff was responsible for a variety of student services offices, including dean of students, counseling and health, housing and res life, career services, student activities, multicultural support services, Greek life, orientation, outdoor programs, student conduct, access services, and recreation and athletics. The majority of his 40 year career was spent in residence life at Evergreen, the University of Washington, and then Central Missouri State University. And while Warrensburg, Missouri was not his favorite place to live, he did meet his wife of 42 years there when both he and Mary were on the residence life staff there. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:11]: Mike has served many of our professional associations, including NASPA, ACPA, and Akuhoai. While with NASPA, he served in a variety of roles, including president, regional vice president, conference chair for Chicago in 2001, and the Orlando joint conference with ACPA in 2007, and 10 years on the national board of directors. His most enjoyable role, though, was as the coordinator of the SERVE Academy. He's also been the host for the Small College and University Institute, a number of SSAO institutes, and the region 5 SSAO retreat. He proudly served for 12 years on the region 5 advisory board. Mike has been honored with the 2022 distinguished pillar of the profession award, the Henry g outstanding mentoring award from the APIKC, the 2007 pillar of the profession, the Doris Machi Coaching breaking the glass ceiling award, and the region 5 Turner award. Now fully engaged in active retirement life, he continues to enjoy his fanaticism for the Seattle Mariners baseball team, fantasy baseball, running, traveling with his wife, Mary, spending time with their 2 kids and their families who live in Seattle and Virginia, and reading The Chronicle of Higher Education for purely entertainment. Mike, we're so glad to have you on SA Voices. Mike Segawa [00:02:21]: Jill, thank you. I'm looking forward to this. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:23]: And Mike, you and I have been connecting at annual conference for, I think, probably several years at this point. You're a pillar of that, the AAPI community for NASPA, but also a distinguished pillar of the profession. And you've just had just an illustrious and very complex career. So I'm looking forward to talking to you today about the longevity of being a student affairs professional and kinda what you've seen. And normally, we start our episodes off by asking our guests how you got to your current seat, and your current seat is retired life. So without kind of going too deep back into the bio a little bit, can you tell us about your journey through the profession? Mike Segawa [00:03:02]: Oh, it was 40 years, Jill, and it never felt like it. I loved every step of the journey. And, actually, you know, a lot of folks, especially when I was a senior student affairs officer, asked what was your favorite job? And they assumed it was being a vice president. And instead, I went the opposite direction. I said, actually, my favorite job was being an RA. And yeah. Absolutely. I've said that in front of RAs. Mike Segawa [00:03:24]: Every time I greeted them for training, I've said it in front of parents and students. Being an RA was the best job I ever had. So started there, but I loved every job that I had after that, whether it was as a hall director or director of housing or vice president or whatever. I loved every job, so it was a wonderful 40 year career. But I knew it was time to leave when, staff would come to me and said, we need a new strategic plan. And I said, yeah. You're right. I don't wanna do that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:54]: Sounds like a lot of work. Right? Mike Segawa [00:03:55]: Yeah. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:56]: So it it sounds like what drove you into student affairs is that kind of semi traditional RA path. What sparked joy for you as an RA that made you wanna launch into the career? Mike Segawa [00:04:08]: It was the basis of my happiness throughout my whole career, and that was the individual students. You know, as we get deeper into the career and you move up the ladder, the chance for contact with individual students gets harder to do, but I always manage to find ways to do it. And when I think back to my RA years, you know, when I needed a study break, all I had to do was walk outside my room and walk down the hallway, and there were always gonna be residents there that I could talk with and just find time to have fun with. Got harder when you became a vice president or dean of students. You know, this when you would walk up to a student, they go, did I do something wrong? But that was it. It was that individual student contact that, even to this day, is the joy of the work. Because every few months or even actually more than few months during a month, on a monthly basis, I'll have some former student reach out or some former staff member reach out, and we'll have a conversation whether by email or phone or text or whatever. And frankly, those are the highlights of the week, man. Mike Segawa [00:05:11]: They still are, even now being retired for about 3 years. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:14]: MEWI recently won a mentorship award, the Henry G, mentorship award through the APIKC. And so I think that really speaks to your willingness to give to professionals even though you're no longer on a college campus day to day. Mike Segawa [00:05:27]: Yeah. And, you know, the mentorship piece is a fascinating dynamic to me because stereotypically, people see that almost as a one way street that the mentor is providing support service to the mentee. But actually, especially when I was practicing, I got more out of that interaction than I felt the mentee was getting. Because I was still learning so much about what was going on in the lives of our students or our staff members or employees or whomever that, gave me an insight that when you're especially sitting in what I call the big chair, people don't necessarily volunteer that to you. And so having those opportunities to engage colleagues in that way was very much a two way street. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:10]: I'll give a shout out to another NASPA pillar, Doctor. Mary Jo Gonzales, who's a a mentor of mine as well. And she would talk often about, you know, needing to find truth tellers when you're sitting in the big chair, and being able to, have those around you who who you can trust to tell you the truth even if the truth is hard. Mike Segawa [00:06:28]: Yeah. And, you know, and the truth can be hard, and it can be hard to hear it sometimes. You know, and some of us are better at that than others. And so that's something I think that requires usually practice. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:39]: So let's pop back to that RA space for just a minute because you came into the student affairs profession at a time when the literature, especially around student development, was still pretty focused on a particular population. And so I'm just gonna name that. We know most of our original student development theory work was focused on white cisgendered men. And so we know that the literature has evolved since then. But knowing what you were getting into in the state of the field at the time, what do you see as things that were important for you as a as a learning space? And what did you see as things where you were still filling in the gaps of your own knowledge and how you were working with students? Mike Segawa [00:07:17]: As folks could see from my bio, I did my undergraduate work at UC Irvine, and that was way back in 1975 to 79. One of my first supervisors as an RA was an Asian American woman. Little did I know how unique and rare that would be for me in my career to have an Asian American woman be a supervisor. However, it was so important. What I learned from her by watching her, by having her as a role model, conversations and all that, that was hugely important to me as I reflect, you know, on the whole arc of my career. And so it it was just reinforcement for the importance of having a diverse workforce, including in student affairs, and that we're still a ways away from it. So that was hugely important to me, who I was working with, who my supervisors were. And I had the advantage that throughout my career, I had folks from diverse backgrounds who were supervisors. Mike Segawa [00:08:13]: But again, at the time, I didn't really appreciate it. They were just my supervisor. They were Rob. They were Charlene. They were Jim. They were the folks that yes. They're my supervisor. But their identities, in their own ways, they role modeled how to do that really well. Mike Segawa [00:08:29]: And you know, I think the common denominator for those that I most enjoyed working with in that role was their own self of sense of self confidence and self worth. And so that's something that I didn't fully appreciate at the time. And I think as we're on the journey, you may not fully appreciate the presence of some of those folks in your career. They could be supervisors. They could be peers. They could be students that you're working with who are student leaders. But surrounding yourself with folks who are different from you in so many ways really enriches the career, makes it more fun, but also enhances your skill set in a way that the research can't do, the books can't do, the lectures can't do. It's only in that interaction personally, 1 on 1 especially over an extended period, that I think you get the most advantage of having diverse voices around you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:17]: And in thinking about how diversity has evolved and DEIB has changed from when you entered the field to now, can you help us understand how that evolution felt as you were moving through it? Because we can look at it from a retrospective and say, yes, we're in a different place now, but we also know that happens incrementally. Mike Segawa [00:09:35]: Yeah. We are at a different place now. Maybe I'll start there because the place we are now, literally today, honestly, I think is so much harder than where we were 40 years ago when I first started the work. The challenges that we are facing in the way of social justice and equity, especially external to the academy, is not some place I anticipated us having to go. And I've talked with a lot of my colleagues who are still in the field, especially senior officers, and I shared with them that I never imagined 10 or 20 years ago that we would have to be engaged in these kinds of conversations, justifying what I would consider to be some of the pillars of our profession, some of the core tenants of our profession, the things that almost all of us grew up with, believing in strongly and still believe in, that we would have to justify it in the ways that I am seeing, especially at some of our flagship institutions that are just more visible to the public and to politicians and to other folks. So I'll start there. Like I said, that I think today's work in the way of social justice and equity inclusion is harder than it was 40 years ago. But the evolution of it on so many levels is gratifying. Mike Segawa [00:10:43]: We're talking about things now that are so much further ahead of where we were 40 years ago. 40 years ago, it was very much a representation issue. It was a numbers issue that we saw or the lack thereof. Especially in student affairs, I'm proud of the job that we've done in terms of diversifying our own workforce, but we still have a ways to go with that. Whether it's with indigenous populations or Asian American, Asian populations, Southeast Asian populations, Hispanic, Latino, Latinx. We've got a ways to go still with that. But it's gratifying to see that we're beyond simply needing to get numbers in the door. And I think we've become, inside the the academy and especially student affairs, we've become better sophisticated about the students that we're dealing with and each other as peers and colleagues. Mike Segawa [00:11:34]: So that's progress. But we're being challenged now in a way, like I said, I didn't see this coming. And it's really frustrating to me that that's now a critical part of the work. Because having to do that kind of work that many of you are doing in defending the work means that's a diversion from being able to deliver day to day service to students or to our institutions. Like I said, it's a frustrating dynamic for me to watch. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:56]: Do you have any advice for those of us that are in those weeds? Mike Segawa [00:12:00]: Well, with student affairs and actually with higher education in general, we generally don't get to shape the agenda socially, even when it has to do with us in terms of higher education and our students. So we do have to be reactive to it. And in this case, I don't see this dynamic going away where having to justify the work around equity and inclusion. It's gonna be on our radar screen, and it's gonna be foisted upon us as an agenda item for a while. So it's not gonna do us any good to try and avoid it or to downplay it or to pooh pooh it or to just dismiss it as these are people who just don't know or understand or their motives are not pure in why they're challenging it. So having said that, I think that we in student affairs and especially some of our senior officers and our equity inclusion officers, we're gonna have to get more comfortable and more engaged in what I call the public square conversations. We're gonna have to be engaged in those conversations outside of the academy, outside of our ivy covered walls, and engage it and bring our perspective and data assessment to it to inform the conversation. And we're not always gonna be successful with that, and it's not always gonna be heard. Mike Segawa [00:13:17]: But we need to have the opportunity to at least put it out there, like I said, in the public square. And we're not used to that. You know, our graduate programs don't teach us or train us for that. Our professional training doesn't do that. I don't know that we've seen very many, if any, programs at NASPA or ACP or anywhere else on this kind of thing. But we're gonna need to engage our publics in a way that we have not had to do historically around here. I think we can do it. I know we can do it. Mike Segawa [00:13:43]: But this is a different direction that we're gonna have to go, because I think we need to be more assertive about sharing who we are, what we do, and what it accomplishes on behalf of our students. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:56]: I think that's true both in and outside of the academy. One of the things I've always talked about in senior leadership roles is how student affairs tells its story to the rest of the campus community and the stakeholders. Because I think a lot of student affairs professionals, and I've felt this way in my career as well, kind of always feel like the underdog a little bit that we're constantly scrapping to prove that we are deserving of resources or time, energy, what have you. And then we have on the other side, these beautiful student stories of students who would not have persisted without the student services that are coming out through student affairs, whether that be things like camp programs or student involvement or TRIO or I can go on and on and on about the list of whatever that might look like. But we also don't do a good job of telling that story even to our academic affairs partners sometimes. So it's wise advice that you're sharing. Mike Segawa [00:14:46]: Joe, what you just said is another one of my hopes for us as a profession, and that is we do become better storytellers, which means we're not lecturing people. We're not preaching to people. We're sharing the stories, especially of our students. And a lot of times, we let the student voices sing that out. That's absolutely perfect and most effective. But we will be in places that our students will not be. And so being able to tell those stories of our students. And I remember many times saying to my staff, I need these stories in my hip pockets. Mike Segawa [00:15:17]: Because as a senior officer, I wasn't always privy to those stories. But my director of student activities was, my director of orientation was, my resident directors were. So I was always searching for those stories that I could use, whether it was with cabinet members, board members, alumni. Because during most of my time, I was focused inwardly on those stories to within the academy. I didn't have to talk very much with legislators and folks outside the academy as I was just talking about, but I still needed those stories. And I needed those stories to pass on to my president because I wanted my president to have those stories in his or her hip pocket to be able to pull out. So storytelling has a proud tradition in so many of our cultures, you know. And especially for someone like me being in the Pacific Northwest, our indigenous populations have the most wonderful stories and develop the most wonderful art around those stories. Mike Segawa [00:16:13]: So, yeah, it is hugely critical, but storytelling is a much more fun way to convey how we have impact and is an easier way for folks to digest what we are saying and what we're trying to convey. And I think it's less threatening, and it's more entertaining. So, yeah, I do think we need to become better storytellers inside the academy, as you said, Joe. But, you know, as I said earlier, it's becoming increasingly important outside the academy now to be able to tell those stories and to equip others to tell those stories. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:45]: You mentioned grad prep programs as a place where there's space for evolution and how we're preparing student affairs professionals. I'm wondering if you can talk to us a little bit about what your grad prep was like when you were getting your master's degree in student affairs, what you're seeing now, and where you think we should be going. Mike Segawa [00:17:02]: Wow. That's a long term memory recall for me. Although it doesn't seem like that long ago, it it really doesn't. And I think that's part of the joy of the journey has been. In student affairs, for probably the longest time, and certainly the last 25, 30 years, we have often talked about an arc of a career in student affairs starting with the grad prep program or even earlier than that as an undergraduate, you were a student leader. And usually that meant you were an RA, and then you went to graduate school and you got your master's degree, and then you got into the field. Usually, it was a residence life type position, and then you just moved up the chain. You moved up your career ladder. Mike Segawa [00:17:42]: And that was the stereotypical arc that led you to a director position, an assistant dean, an associate dean, associate vice president, and then you got to sit in the big chair as the vice president. And that was a traditional career arc. You know, as I've gone through this, actually, very few of us did that traditional career arc from RA to vice president. And I say that as one of the few unicorns that did that. I started as an RA, and I ended up as a vice president. But, you know, most of my colleagues, most of my peers, that wasn't their career arc. We came from all different directions in terms of our journey to eventually becoming a senior officer. So when I think about my grad program and what we did, yes, it was really a very traditional program in that sense of how we would describe it. Mike Segawa [00:18:31]: It included programs like legal issues. It had a counseling component. It did have a diversity component to it, history. So it very much was traditional, which was a great grounding for me 40, 45 years ago. But the conversations that I had I've had with my our faculty colleagues in these programs, especially over the last 5 to 7 years of my career, pointed out to me how hard it is on our grad prep programs today to prepare our colleagues for this work because there really isn't any way in a usual 2 year master's program to really prepare you for the day to day work that you're gonna now be entering because it's so much harder, so much more complicated, so much more complex than the world I entered over 40 years ago. And a 2 year grad program can't possibly touch on all of the topics that a supervisor would say we need you to get. And so that is the huge challenge to our grad prep programs and to our students coming through those programs now. There really needs to be acknowledgment. Mike Segawa [00:19:35]: The 2 year master's program, if a person chooses to come that route into the field, can only be the first step in your professional development and preparation for this incredibly challenging but rewarding work. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:47]: And it's interesting because one of the things I've been hearing about the grad prep spaces is that there's some practical elements that we expect that are taught through, GAships or internships, practicum experiences. And that's uneven training ground depending on where a grad student is placed, particularly in navigating sticky political situations on campuses. And those are things sometimes that we can only learn through experience and sometimes stepping right in it in that experience. Mike Segawa [00:20:18]: Yeah. Stepping right in it is a great way to learn. You just hope you don't step into it too often. One of the things that, again, towards the end of my career, I was really paying more attention to both on my own campuses, but as a profession. We just have to get better at providing our staff with professional development options and opportunities. And to be more purposeful, have them be more purposeful about them, help them to be more purposeful about it, be more structured about it, and to look for the opportunities and to create the opportunities that aren't just going to NASPA, National. Some of our younger colleagues, I think, have this vision of, I need to go to the national conference. That is the professional development opportunity. Mike Segawa [00:21:05]: That's the place to be seen. That's the place to get the jobs. And all of that, to some degree, has some truth to it. But for me, professional development over the course of your career should be a diversity of opportunities that can be delivered on your own campus, locally, within your community, regionally, nationally, and as you know better than I do, Joe, internationally. So we, as supervisors, just need to get our folks to be more purposeful and structured about their own career development arc because it's gonna it's even more important now than it was 30 or 40 years ago. The skills and preparation and experience that our folks need to be successful and to navigate these really challenging waters is so critical. You are not prepared for the work coming out of the master's program alone. And you're not prepared for the work just by going to conference programs over the course of a few years. Mike Segawa [00:22:02]: You're gonna have to develop your skills and experiences in ways that are just very sophisticated, very purposeful, and very diverse. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:11]: And those skill sets may not actually be all that different than the ones that you needed when you started your career, but the the nuance around them might have changed for sure. Mike Segawa [00:22:19]: Yeah. And what to me is even more critical now than it was to me 40 years ago, 45 years ago, is how to sustain yourself in the work. That was really never a question for me and most of my peers for most of our career. And when I say how do we sustain ourselves, it's can I do this work for another 5 years? Can I do this work for another 10 years? Can I do this work for another 25 years? That was never really crossing our minds. There would be bad days or bad weeks where we go, maybe I should go do something else. But those are more fleeting thoughts, and they never stuck. Today, I mean, especially over the last 5 to 7 years, I've had so many conversations with folks at all places in their professional journey that are asking themselves that question. They're not necessarily sharing that with others and especially not sharing it with supervisors. Mike Segawa [00:23:09]: It was fascinating to me when I would be at NASPA having these kinds of coffee vine conversations or just sitting somewhere quietly on with these topics in mind. And I would ask folks, can you see yourself doing this work for another 15 years? Joe, I and I had dozens of those over the course of last few years. I didn't run into a single person who immediately said, yeah. Absolutely. No problem. I can easily do it. Every single one of them said paused and said, I haven't really told anybody that, but I've thought about it. Can I do this for another x amount of years? And usually it was more than 5. Mike Segawa [00:23:43]: You know, those of us who are close to retirement, it's like, yeah, we can suck it up and do it. But those who are at mid level positions or entry level positions or whatever, asking them that question was really, on some level, heartbreaking to hear their response because they didn't know if they could do this work for a lifetime of work. And that's hard to hear, but it's also important to hear because supervisors, professional associations, we need to be paying attention to that in ways that I think need to be different than what we have been doing for the last 50 years. Just letting our folks go to national regional conferences saying, that's great, that's good, that's professional development, it's not enough anymore. And one other thing I'll add to it is budgets are tight on every campus no matter what kind you are. And almost always, the first things that we cut are professional development dollars. We have to rethink that because that's a short term fix that will have medium and long term negative consequences for our profession, for our institutions, and our students. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:49]: I appreciate you naming the burnout in the field. It's something that we've been talking about on the podcast since I've been working with it really, and COVID really did a number on a lot of us, I think. And that's not specific to the student affairs profession, but a lot of us were holding the space for unprecedented decisions and times and things that were really hard. And as you've mentioned throughout our conversation, the the nuance of the profession has gotten more complicated. The litigiousness has gotten more complicated, and the regulation has gotten more complicated. So as you kind of observe those you're mentoring, what advice do you like to give about how to find that resilience? Mike Segawa [00:25:28]: It comes back to a lot of things that we know are important. It starts for me with, do not neglect your loved ones. There are going to be days weeks again where, okay, yes, I do have to spend a lot of time with work on campus. But if that happens too often, if you allow that to happen too often, and you don't pay attention to your families, to those who are closest to you, that's gonna be detrimental to them, to you, to your students. And we often let that slide and and sacrifice that. And so my first thing to my folks has always been take care of your families, take care of yourself in that regard. But we oftentimes sacrifice that. And so that that is number 1 for me. Mike Segawa [00:26:12]: Number 2 is I paid attention a lot to vacation balances for my staff. And those who were accruing huge balances, for a long time, that was seen as a red badge of courage. You know, wow. Look at that. You know, what dedication they have to the work. And I came to believe, actually, no. That's a problem, actually. If we have staff members, colleagues who are actually returning vacation balances to the institution, that's not a good thing. Mike Segawa [00:26:40]: And so as a supervisor, paying attention to those kinds of details and literally really pushing your folks to use those vacation balances, take the time, is hugely important. Most of our staff have often been at will employees or exempt employees, which means we also have the flexibility to give them some downtime that doesn't have to come off the books of vacation or sick. When they've come off those tough weeks, make sure they take the time to be away and fully away, which is hard with your cell phones and computers and iPads and everything else. But that's hugely important to be able to do. And as a supervisor, you need to role model that. There's a little longer story. But so many years ago, I was asked by NASPA to do a workshop on and I think it was at a new SSAO Institute. And they gave me the, work life balance workshop. Mike Segawa [00:27:31]: I'm going, oh, okay. I had actually never put together one of those workshops, so I actually had to do some digging around and creating. So I sent an email to about a couple dozen of my colleagues, mostly vice presidents at that point, and said, what do you think of this work life balance thing? And the traditional answers came back, you know, you need to take the time, you need to be attentive to it and all that. But I had a couple colleagues who wrote back saying, you know, I really don't do it. I love my work. I get energy from the work. And so I just dive in. And I don't do a lot of vacation kinds of stuff. Mike Segawa [00:28:02]: I don't take a lot of downtime. But they said, what I've learned though in that process is my staff is watching me. And so if I'm telling them to take time and I'm not doing it Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:12]: They're not doing it. Mike Segawa [00:28:13]: They're not doing it. Actions speak louder than words. And so even the rare few for whom the work gave them the energy, so they just really dug in and did so much of it. Even they said, I needed to be more attentive to the message I was sending to my staff, and that's hugely important. Most of us need the downtime. Most of us need the time away. But even those of you who don't, others are watching you. And if you're telling them to go away for a while and regroup and refresh, they're not gonna believe it as much And they're gonna see, I guess what it means is I need to be here all the time to be successful because that's what I see my boss doing or my supervisors are doing. Mike Segawa [00:28:49]: So being a supervisor and being a leader is really a complex and complicated job. You really need to think beyond your own needs and how you best operate and look at how is this being perceived by those around me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:02]: Absolutely. One of the best pieces of mentorship I received in that regard was being able not only to take leave, but being able to turn off my phone and my email and just be like, I'm not available during this period of time. And I did that for me and also for the team that I was leading, so they knew that they could also do that when they went out. Mike Segawa [00:29:20]: Technology, on balance, I think, helps us, but not always. And so and I don't know if you were gonna go this direction, Jill, but real quickly, in the way of our work today on campus, I have seen technology be a real challenge for us, with our students especially, student behaviors, the way students now interact with each other, way they interact with us. And on balance, I think it's provided more challenge than we found the opportunity right now. Students on social media these days experience so much harm. And how do we deal with that? How do they deal with that? The conversations we have on campuses these days are oftentimes online and not necessarily mediated. And so we're seeing damage being done to our students especially that we were not prepared to deal with, especially 10, 15 years ago when this first started breaking on our campuses. And so I see the importance of not only us, but our students trying to find distance from social media and technology at times because it can be a really difficult place to try and communicate, develop relationships, exchange ideas. I worked on campuses in which I had too many students tell me I know the right thing to say online or in person. Mike Segawa [00:30:33]: It's not what I necessarily believe, but I know this is what I need to say in order to stay out of the crosshairs. And I don't wanna be in the crosshairs social media wise or in person wise. So it's really made really genuine engagement for our students on campuses really hard to do nowadays and really hard for us as student affairs folks to facilitate those. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:55]: I think that leads us really nicely into our 3 themed questions for our season. So I'm going to start with our question on the past, which is what's one component of the history of the student affairs profession that you think we should continue to carry forward or alternatively something we should be letting go of? Mike Segawa [00:31:11]: Continuing forward to focus on the student and student learning and the student experience. Student learning has been terrific as far as an understanding of what skills our our students are developing. But one of the things that we're not measuring well enough is, are are students having fun? Are they enjoying themselves? Are they enjoying the experience? It's great to measure their intellectual development, their social development, and all those kinds of things, but this needs to be fun, and it needs to be enjoyable. And I don't think we've paid enough attention to that. So it is the focus on the student that we bring forward, but moving forward, these are supposed to be the best years of their lives. And for an increasing number of our students, I'm not sure that it is. And that's where we can help them in student affairs more than their faculty members can, perhaps more than their parents can. That's a role that we can well play for our students. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:05]: Moving into the present, what's happening in the field of student affairs right now that's going well for us? Mike Segawa [00:32:10]: Wow. That's a really good question because I don't know that many of us think that way right now because of all the challenges that surround us. So what's going well for us right now is we are responding to the emergencies, if you will, the crises really, really well. Go back to the pandemic. You know, that was just 2020, so it wasn't that long ago. But the speed, the effectiveness that we approach that, I give us a lot of credit for that because that was something most of us, well, hardly any of us had ever dealt with something like that. So there wasn't any playbook for how to deal with this crisis on our campus. And earlier, we talked about, the lack of appreciation for student affairs folks within the academy. Mike Segawa [00:32:51]: I think historically that's been true, but I do think one of the silver linings to this pandemic has been especially our faculty colleagues have come to appreciate even more what student affairs people bring to the student experience. Because it was us that we were leading the way on how do we respond in the pandemic, how do we take care of our students, and even to some degree, helping our faculty members understand how can they most effectively now teach our students. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:17]: And our third question on the future. In an ideal world, what does the field need to do to thrive towards our future? Mike Segawa [00:33:23]: Well, I have talked about it already, John. That is we need to be engaged in what I call the public square. We need to now step outside of our academy walls and engage the publics, whether those are legislators, other politicians, local leaders, civic leaders. We need to be more assertive about going out there and sharing our stories. And for most of us, that should be fun. Bragging about our students, bragging about our institutions, but doing it in a way that we bring the data to. We can't just say trust us. That's a huge difference from when I entered this work. Mike Segawa [00:33:58]: 40 or 50 years ago, I was taught the public trusts us in the academy in higher education. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:03]: That's definitely different than now. Mike Segawa [00:34:05]: So if we say this is what we need to do when it comes to the work of teaching our students, they will defer to us. The courts defer to us. Parents defer to us. Politicians defer to us. As you said, that's no longer the case, and we have not yet adjusted to that reality. And that's not gonna change. We'll not go back to the days where we would say trust us, and they'd let us do what we want. Even those who are allies and supporters are now at a place where, okay, I wanna believe you, but you have to show me why this is true, or you have to show me why this is going to work. Mike Segawa [00:34:37]: And we have not yet pivoted in a way, I think, that embraces that and then prepares us to be effective storytellers of the critical work that we're doing, you know, on campuses. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:49]: Mike, is there a particular student affairs story that you would love to make sure that our listeners hear from your career? Mike Segawa [00:34:54]: So I spent, 1 year at the University of Nevada, Reno. I spent most of my career in the Pacific Northwest and especially at University of Puget Sound and 13 years as a senior officer at Puget Sound. But for a variety of reasons, felt like the right time to leave was then when I did. And the next year, I had some colleagues, some friends at UNR asked if I would come down and help them out for a year as an interim dean. So I did. And one of the last meetings I had was with a student at UNR in my office. And she was there because it was May. And she was a senior, and she thought she was in position to graduate. Mike Segawa [00:35:32]: All she needed was another class in summer school, and she would graduate. And she had mapped this out to the penny for herself over her 4 years. What she didn't realize in having to attend one summer session was summer session was more expensive than the academic year. So she didn't have the money to complete the summer session. So a faculty member had referred her to me, to our office. She explained her story to me, and she was a bartender at a casino in Reno, which she said in her case, she says, I need to wear a bustier to work. She said, I need to get out of this job, but I need to graduate in order to do that. But I don't have the money to finish. Mike Segawa [00:36:10]: She needed $300 is what she needed, I think. So I had funds to be able to do that as most deans and VPs do. We have some money. So I was able to provide her with $300, and she could finish the summer session. So she thanked me profusely, left my office, walked outside. And she was walking by my office on the outside, and she didn't realize I could see her. She was literally jumping up and down and wiping tears away from her eyes. $300 did that, but it was a huge reminder to me of why we do this work, what's important in the work, and the joy that we can get from it, no matter how complicated the jobs have become and no matter how stressful they are, there can always be these reminders of what's really important and what sustains us in the work when we have that kind of interaction with one student, in this case, for a few $100. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:02]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:08]: Thanks, Jill. Really excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a lot happening in NASPA. The full registration for the 2025 NASPA Annual Conference is open. And that means housing is open as well. So if you are planning to attend the 2025 NASPA Annual Conference in New Orleans, This is the time to get in and get all squared away with your full registration with free conference workshops and housing and everything else. Take advantage of the early rate until December 18th. For those of you that are looking at attending, the conference programs will be held at the New Orleans Ernest and Morial, Ernest and Morial Convention Center, and the Hilton New Orleans Riverside. Sleeping rooms are available in a number of hotels close to the convention center and the Hilton. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:04]: There's also a large number of pre conference workshops that are available for attendees of the 2025 NASPA annual conference that includes half day, full day, and multiple day pre conference workshops. These learning sessions will take place on Saturday, March 15th, and Sunday, March 16th. You can register for a pre conference workshop to join colleagues and experts for an opportunity to discuss important and timely topics in-depth. Now do note that pre conference workshops do require an additional registration and fee and are not included in the main annual conference registration. Most pre conference workshops are an add on to the main conference registration, which means that you must register, you must be registered for the 2025 NASPA Annual Conference in order to register for a pre conference workshop. The exceptions to that include the International Symposium, the Community College Institute, and the Undergraduate Student Conference. The Public Policy Division just released a update on a number of different public policy issues that are impacting our campuses. Earlier this month, both the House and Senate approved the short term continuing resolution extending federal government funding at fiscal year 2024 levels until December 20th, 2024. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:39:14]: This move signed into law by president Biden prevents a government shutdown and pushes budget discussions beyond the 2024 presidential election. For higher education, the CR maintains funding for the Department of Education at current levels. Looking forward, the binding, the Biden administration FY 25 budget request includes eliminating origination fees on federal student loans and increasing the maximum Pell Grant by $750 As house appropriations chair, Tom Cole indicated, the outcome of the presidential election will significantly influence whether Congress finalizes a full year funding deal in December or opts for another temporary measure. On September 24, 2024, the house also passed HR 5646, the Stop Campus Hazing Act, a bipartisan bill aimed at enhancing student safety by mandating that universities report hazing incidents under the Clery Act and implementing hazing prevention programs. The bill also requires that institutions disclose which student organizations have a history of hazing incidents, increasing transparency and allowing students and parents to make informed decisions. The measure is now headed to the Senate for approval and if passed, it would become the 1st federal anti hazing law. The College Cost Reduction Act or CCRA introduced in January 2024 continues to gain traction with 153 House sponsors pushing it forward. However, while the bill aims to re aims to reduce college costs, it may increase student loan burdens and weaken institutional accountability by repealing the gainful employment and 90.10 rules and limiting debt relief for students impacted by institutional closures. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:40:54]: The outcome of the November elections will likely shape the future of this legislation. The education department also extended the deadline for colleges to report program level data for gainful employment and financial value transparency from October 1, 2024 to January 15, 2025 to accommodate challenges with the new FAFSA rollout. The reported data will be used to evaluate program value, including graduates ability to repay loans and earnings compared to non college graduates. While supportive of the delay, advocacy groups stress the importance of timely implementation to provide students with critical information for making informed decisions. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:41:33]: Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself, where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, Hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association, and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:42:53]: Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:58]: Chris, thank you so much for always keeping us updated on what's going on in and around NASPA. And, Mike, we have reached our lightning round portion of the show. I have 7 questions for you to answer in about 90 seconds. Mike Segawa [00:43:10]: Okay. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:11]: Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Mike Segawa [00:43:17]: Center Field by John Fogarty. It's a baseball song. And this is gonna sound weird, but I also told my wife, at my memorial service, this is what I want played. So it's not only my walk up song, but it's my walk off song too. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:30]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Mike Segawa [00:43:33]: Astronaut. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:34]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Mike Segawa [00:43:37]: That's a great question. I would say Greg Roberts was one of them, Grant Sherwood at Colorado State, and most recently, president I served at Puget Sound for 13 years, Ron Thomas. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:48]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Mike Segawa [00:43:53]: Any book by George Kuh. And I say that now, and I will deny it to George because I always give George a hard time. I always say, people think you're really smart, George. You're not as smart as they think you are. And he goes, well, I know that, but they keep buying my stuff. So but, yeah, anything written by George, I always paid attention to. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:44:13]: Number 5, the best TV show you've been binging lately. Mike Segawa [00:44:16]: Lessons in chemistry. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:44:17]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Mike Segawa [00:44:21]: You know what? It is a local sports station in Seattle. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:44:25]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? Mike Segawa [00:44:29]: Yeah. Well, Mary, my wife, and I, we have been married now for 42 years, and she is also a former student affairs person. So she put up with a lot over the course of our 42 years of marriage. So that's the biggest shout out. After that, the staffs that I worked with at what was then Central Missouri State University and then University of Washington and especially at University of Puget Sound and at Evergreen State College where I spent the most time, those folks were hugely important to me in my life and profession and totally enjoyable. And then at Pitzer College, where I spent most of the last 3 years, amazing places to work because of the amazing people there. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:06]: Mike, I really appreciate you taking time out of retired life to come back and share your wisdom with the NASPA community. If anyone would appreciate your mentorship as well in the future, how can they find you? Mike Segawa [00:45:16]: It's easy, Jill. It's a little old school. Email is great. My address, it's in, the NASPA directory if they wanna get there, but it's also it's just [email protected]. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:27]: Mike, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your voice with us today. Mike Segawa [00:45:31]: You're welcome, Jill. Had great fun here. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:45:37]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill l Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:46:15]: That's me. Produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.  

In this episode of "SA Voices from the Field," Melissa Manuel, a seasoned student affairs professional with extensive international experience, offers valuable insights into creating more efficient, collaborative, and holistic systems within higher education. Here are some key takeaways from her conversation. Bridging Gaps Through Service and Collaboration Melissa Manuel emphasizes the importance of fostering community involvement among students who cannot afford traditional courses by offering them roles within the institution. This not only helps these students receive education but also instills a sense of service and dedication, aligning them closely with the institution’s vision and mission. The integration of such methods shows promise in creating a more inclusive and invested student community. Leveraging Global Perspectives Manuel advocates for a more holistic and international approach to research and collaboration within student affairs. By looking beyond local data and considering global perspectives, institutions can vastly improve their policies and initiatives. This approach also ensures that practices are culturally inclusive and innovative, benefiting from the diversity of thought from various parts of the world. Technological Advancements and AI Integration One of the compelling areas of discussion was the application of AI and digital tools to streamline administrative processes. Manuel highlights the potential of AI in automating tasks such as scanning transfer credits and reading transcripts, thereby saving valuable time and reducing human error. She also points out the slow adoption of such technologies in higher education and urges institutions to become more open to these advancements for greater efficiency and effectiveness. Developing Holistic Student Systems In her current role, Manuel is working towards creating holistic and interconnected systems that integrate student affairs with academic affairs. These systems aim to provide a seamless experience for students, similar to the comprehensive view offered by K-12 teachers. By breaking down silos between departments and encouraging collaboration, institutions can ensure that every student’s journey is well-supported and aligned with institutional goals. Personalized Learning and Data-Driven Solutions Melissa also touched on how AI and data analysis can create tailored learning experiences. By understanding students' interests and areas of difficulty, AI can recommend curriculum adjustments and additional resources, providing a more personalized education. Additionally, data analysis can uncover trends, such as geographical challenges faced by students, leading to solutions like increased online course offerings. Empowering Students Through Experiential Learning Drawing from her entrepreneurial experience, Manuel supports models of experiential learning where students are actively involved in managing projects and initiatives. This hands-on approach not only provides practical experience but also promotes a sense of ownership and adaptability among students, preparing them for real-world challenges. To round off the episode, Melissa thanks everyone who has impacted her professional journey and emphasizes the critical role of collaboration within student affairs. Listeners are encouraged to engage with her on LinkedIn or via email for further discussions. By incorporating these innovative practices and fostering a collaborative environment, higher education institutions can better support their students' holistic development and success.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. On today's episode of Essay Voices, we welcome Melissa Manuel. Melissa has over 17 years of experience in higher education across 5 countries and 7 institutions. Having worked for 4 startup institutions in the Arabian Gulf, Melissa is familiar with how internationalization, multicultural working environments, pedagogy, and student success comes together in a variety of combinations to support student and institutional success. Her experience has also bred familiarity with many student and academic affairs best practices, as well as practical considerations and implementation outside of our common practices. Melissa will be talking to us today about starting up a brand new institution, building systems from scratch. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:07]: So in our theme of the past, present, and future of student affairs, Melissa brings rich experience to this dialogue. Hope you enjoy it. Melissa, welcome to SA Voices. Melissa Manuel [00:01:16]: Thank you very much, Jill. I am very excited to be here. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:19]: It's always such a delight for me to get to talk to our international guests, and tell us where you are joining us from today. Melissa Manuel [00:01:26]: Today, I am in Saudi Arabia. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:28]: And Melissa is at a not to be named at this point institution that is building and growing in the role of registrar. So, Melissa, can you tell us how you got to your current seat? Melissa Manuel [00:01:39]: Well, that's a long story, but one full of lots of twists and turns. So I did begin working in higher education in Canada for quite a few years while I was doing my undergrad degree. And then I got an opportunity to work in Qatar where I worked for 2 institutions. And then I moseyed on over to Saudi about 6 years ago, and now I'm in Northern Saudi Arabia. So total, I've got about 17 years in higher education between 3 countries, but with the 2 extra degrees are outside the countries that I've worked in, probably a total of 5 countries. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:09]: That's amazing. So what are the other two countries on the list? Melissa Manuel [00:02:12]: So my master's degree was done in the United Kingdom, and I'm currently doing my PhD in the United States. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:18]: So like many of our international guests, especially expat international guests, you've had a journey that has taken you through multiple cultural contexts. And that's one of the reasons that I'm thrilled to be talking to you on our past, present, and future theme because you've kind of seen the way that higher ed is playing out in a variety of different contexts. So what can you tell us right now about the context for higher education and student affairs in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia? Melissa Manuel [00:02:42]: That's a really great question. So student affairs, I would say specifically in Saudi, and I would extend that toward the Greater Arabian Gulf, doesn't exactly exist as a profession just yet. You do see more of a student affairs presence in a lot of branch campuses to international institutions, especially the American ones where student affairs really does have a strong preference. But for the most part, it is a growing area. But what you see in those areas is a lot more in in institutional collaboration because student affairs doesn't exist on its own, but it's really wrapped up in academic affairs or student services or student success, which is what you see, especially even in a lot of Asian institutions where student success will really encompass both the registrarials type of side where we're looking at registration and letters and support. And then also the student affairs type of side that we see where we have student clubs and activities, internships, career support counseling. So it's really more of a holistic feeling, I would say, in this region. But with that, it does have a lot of room to grow, which is really wonderful and to be part of that foundation. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:45]: Having done this work in the Canadian context, which, from my limited knowledge looks a little closer to US based student affairs work. What can you say in the compare and contrast space about what you love about this holistic student success model you're working in, and what you wish might look a little closer to the system that you grew up in? Melissa Manuel [00:04:04]: In Canada, I would agree that student affairs at least is a lot more similar to the United States student affairs type of systems. However, on the registrarial side, so I'm currently a university registrar. It is actually a lot more holistic in the Canadian context where you generally have a registrar's office that serves both admissions and enrollment and records. Whereas in the United States, you'll have admission because it's so tied to funding as a separate entity. And I think there can be a lot lost between those different groups, whereas in Canada, I do see that a lot more closer. In my current context, I see all of those mingling together a lot more, which is really wonderful. Because again, it provides, I think, a stronger and more holistic student experience because you're more familiar with the journey that those students have come from. You know where they were recruited from. Melissa Manuel [00:04:52]: You maybe know what kind of cultural context they're coming from. You've seen them go through admissions. You've seen them go through registration and maybe some of the points that they had at the point of initial registration and orientation where maybe they had a lot of family support or parental guidance. And you can kinda watch that and see how that's affected their student journey and where they go through clubs, what interests them, what their career paths are because you've seen how those other factors have influenced their choices and their interests. So that's what I do really love here, and I would like to actually see more of that collaborative holistic student experience in other countries as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:27]: What does that look like structurally? I think when we look at US and Canadian higher ed student affairs structures, they're kind of established and matured now and a little bit solidified in a lot of ways in terms of the way that the work is pretty vertical, meaning that we've got people that are specialized in various functional areas. And those areas of specialization have really become their own mini professions at this point. We're seeing far less generalists in student affairs than we used to. And I think that is creating some unique pathways into mid and senior level leadership as well because some of those skill sets mean that we don't necessarily get exposed to other parts of the profession. So I'm hoping you can share more about what that means to truly be more integratively collaborative. Melissa Manuel [00:06:12]: Well, definitely the background of what you see student affairs professionals coming in internationally, and I would say that not just for the Arabian Gulf, but in many different regions. Australia is a really good example of that because they don't have a strong student affairs type of system. A lot of their local students don't live on campus, so student affairs is actually really integrated with their curriculum development. So same as in Australia as you see here, and I would suggest a lot of Asian institutions as well as maybe European too, that you can see people coming into student affairs at fairly senior levels without any experience in higher education, but maybe they come from counseling backgrounds or career development services or maybe student clubs or recreation. You see a lot of that as well. And it is really interesting having worked for very young institutions to see how the individuals that are coming in with those very particular backgrounds outside of student affairs have influenced the structures internally and the way that the university goes, what kind of resources are given because they see those things as priority in many cases. And I really like to see that because I do think it provides a more individual, a different type of set of circumstances that students can kind of go towards, and there's more influence because maybe if you'd haven't worked in student affairs, then you're more keen to see what your stakeholders have to say because you haven't been exposed to that before. And so I think that's something that's really special here, and I think it provides an opportunity for innovation because we're not so tied to maybe the education and the history that we've gone through. Melissa Manuel [00:07:40]: I do think that there can be some things that are lost obviously in translation in understanding what that student experience means and how it can really change a student's life. So I do think there again, there are going to be pros and cons. In terms of structures, generally, what I have seen, and it really depends on if an institution is a homegrown local institution or they are a branch campus. Homegrown local institution or they are a branch campus, particularly if they're US branch campus or even a Canadian branch campus. But what I have seen a lot of the times is you'll have a director of enrollment or a director of student services or student success. Sometimes this individual might be a manager or they might even be a VP. And then from there, you'll have people that are working on specific areas, but really they're all reporting to the same individual. And I think that's something that can be challenging in the US context is that generally, you'll have student affairs or a dean of students reporting up one side and then you'll have the academic side of the house, academic affairs that are dealing with policies. Melissa Manuel [00:08:36]: So this is an administrative side of the academic house that's going up the academic side and they don't really talk to one another. So what I have seen in my own experience is a little bit of a mismatch sometimes when it comes to the institutional voice, how policies are put into practice, and how things work in general, and the type of support I think that students can get. I think this has been fixed a lot with a one stop shop that we see with a lot of institutions now. But I do still think that there's not as much communication as there does need to be because with the student experience, it's a holistic experience. And in particular, there's some really great research that has shown that students, and this is in the US, that American students feel a lot more comfortable asking for any type of career kind of support or academic support from their faculty versus the specialists that are working in, let's say academic advising. And there's a few different reasons I think for that. One is the passion, of course, that's gonna bring faculty to the table anyway. But also, I think that they have a greater understanding of that kind of holistic map of where a student can go, where somebody in it specifically in advising may be able to say, okay. Melissa Manuel [00:09:40]: These are the courses that you can take, but can they tell you maybe this person's doing a startup over here and you should try that, or this institution is looking at some kind of commercial engagement that might be of interest to you. And so they have a more specialized map because they're specialists, and we're kind of losing that I think overall holistic vision, which we don't know what's most important to students. So I do think a holistic vision in my point of view, I think is preferable. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:03]: There's 2 things I've always said to team members that I've worked with, which is, you know, the students don't care how we're organized. They don't care who reports to who. They don't care really what funding streams are going to x, y, and z sometimes. Sometimes they do. But the reality is the the anchor of the point of care for a student is what is their experience on the campus. And they don't differentiate between an in and outside of the classroom experience on a US campus. They look holistically, as you've mentioned, what is my experience as a student at this institution? And that whole picture is what paints their entire experience from, you know, entry to degree. So this is a an approach I think a lot of institutions are working towards in the US, trying to make more fluid some of those boundaries that have somehow become a little harder over time. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:49]: And I'll give a shout out to Chris Lewis, our co producer and audio engineer on this show, because he is the NASPA, I believe, co chair of the SAPA knowledge community, which is student affairs partnering with academic affairs. And the goal there is kind of the same thing, to soften some of those boundaries. But I also know for a lot of the US based professionals, those boundaries we seek to soften them, and we're not necessarily met with that same idea from some of our partners on the academic affairs side. So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about how you've worked with your colleagues to soften some of those boundaries. Melissa Manuel [00:11:22]: Absolutely. And I 100% agree with you, with what you just said. And also shout out to Chris too. So I actually did attend a Sapa meeting. I think it was last year because I did wanna become part of that team, but then I became a member at large on a finance committee for ACRO, the American Association For Collegiate Registrars. And so I couldn't really do both, but I absolutely agree with the work that Chris is doing and making sure that academic is partnering with student affairs and vice versa. So some of the things that I have done, and I will admit it has been a lot easier, I think, for me than you might see in other institutions because I tend to work for very small start up institutions and ones that are very young. So there's not a lot of history that suggests only this side of the house can deal with this and only that kind of side of the house can deal with that because we haven't faced a lot of those issues to be able to determine those pathways. Melissa Manuel [00:12:12]: So again, I think it has been a little bit easier for me. Because they're small or because the institutions I've worked had have been small, I have made a very strong effort to meet individually with every single stakeholder that is in my institution. So, my previous institution, the registrar's office that I was working at didn't have the best reputation and just for servicing stakeholders and that especially came from faculty. So I really made it my mission to take every single faculty member 1 on 1 out for coffee just to understand their point of view. And it was really a kind of a two way street. So I was able to really write down a lot of the priorities that they had had and be able to clarify some of the reasons maybe why certain certain things weren't happening in a certain way because maybe their population or maybe of their students or what they wanted was only gonna service, let's say, 0.5% of our student demographic. So where are those resources going? And then also to be able to explain some of the reasons why we've done things and maybe where it is on the priority list of changing it in the future. And I have done that also with a lot of my colleagues on the student affairs side. Melissa Manuel [00:13:14]: And then again, when it comes to any type of project, I really try and make sure that we're sharing that. And a really good example is between the academic catalog and the academic hand or the student handbook. So one of the things that I did in one of my previous institutions was I rewrote the entire academic catalog with the support of my office and our senior academic leadership. But because we were changing everything there, we really needed to have an understanding of how those policies affected other areas. So each department as well as the, let's say, student rule regulations. So for example, a student goes on a leave of absence, can they still be, let's say, a leader of their student club? So So things like that and where those pathways kind of go. And so what I would do is I went and showed all the changes to and circulated amongst my student affairs colleagues, and then they were able to go through it and provide feedback. And then we also responded to that feedback, and we had plenty of meetings to help understand kinda where we needed to work together. Melissa Manuel [00:14:09]: And again, really trying to find that one institutional voice, making sure we're using language that really makes sense. And so they started doing the same thing for us when they were going through the student handbook. We would go through it as well and say, oh, you know what? We've actually changed this, or we're looking at this, and maybe you can change that here because we had this feedback from over there. And it really became a lot easier for students, I think, to find information that was consistent across both sides, and then we were both sides were aware of why certain things were the way that they were because that's nothing that a student wants to hear is to say, oh, this doesn't work, and then somebody say, well, that department is just terrible. And so it really provided a learning opportunity for both sides, and we would have regular meetings. So that's one of the things that I really do appreciate as well is regular touch points. Even if it's just something to say, you know, my department is totally loaded right now. We're super busy and then I can say, you know what? I've got some stuff. Melissa Manuel [00:14:56]: Let me just back off a little bit. I'll give you a little bit of space. So being able to really read what your departments are going through and recognize that at the end of the day, especially when it comes to administrative functions, in my view, we are there to service our stakeholders who service the vision or mission of the institution. And that's our job is to work together. And if we're not working together, are we really doing our jobs in the best way possible? And that sometimes does mean taking a step back on putting budgets forward or putting initiatives forward to say, does this actually serve the best interest? And I think that can be hard for a lot of individuals across the board in any country, but really to take a step back and making sure that we understand what we're there to do at the end of the day. One of the Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:34]: most interesting things to me about your career is that you've gotten to build systems a lot from scratch. And taking what you know from your educational background, your domestic context in Canada, your educational context in the UK, now in the US as well, and your lived experiences in the Gulf Coast region. So knowing all of that and kind of looking at that very unique melange of all of these things, when you build a system, what are the parts that you're keeping that you are excited about and you know that work for you? And what are the parts that you're going, we need to jettison this for either cultural context reasons or because we don't need to replicate something that might not be working as well as it could be? Melissa Manuel [00:16:12]: Are you meaning student systems in terms of more technology side or in practice or a little bit of both? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:18]: Could be any of those things, I think. Melissa Manuel [00:16:20]: For systems, I think along the lines of where we're going with technology and digitalization is making sure things data entry is really easy. I really don't like having to put my own staff into roles where they're just taking something from one document and manually typing it into a system. So really trying to automate that, and then if that has to happen, is saying, okay, is this really worth the time for you to do this and what we're going to get out of that? And even if we can find maybe Band Aid solutions where we use AI tools to maybe auto scan, let's say, for transfer credit purposes, we auto scan all the transfer credit reports that have maybe manually been done. There's gonna be errors, but are those errors worth having manual entry versus allowing those errors to survive in the documentation and the reports, but making sure that now we've just changed what would be a 2 week process to an hour. So trying to balance that as much as possible, and then in moving forward, making sure that we are accounting for that, the best use of our time and the way that we're using things. When it comes to any kind of system, I am really wanting everybody involved or to at least have an opportunity to talk about whatever we're doing and put their opinions forward. So for example, I'm in the process of building an academic calendar for my new institution, which is a really fun process. Are we semester? Do we have terms? Do we have quarters? What What kind of credit value systems are we gonna have? What type of grading is gonna come out of that? And one of the things that I've seen at a lot of the institutions that I've worked for is a lack of history on how those decisions were made and who was able to put their opinions forward. Melissa Manuel [00:17:52]: So what I have done or tried to do and continue to do is to put together all the benchmarking that I can find. Say within this cultural context and within the where we are today, this is a couple of opportunities for us and then this is my recommendation. And then I circulate that out and I collect all the feedback both in person and in writing, and I put all that together, collate that. And then I do respond to various things, and some individuals will have opinions that maybe that's great, and I have recorded them down even if I don't agree with them or other people don't agree with them because then there at least there's a history to know if we did look at that or not, and maybe why we chose not to go in that direction. And I think that really helps to build a better understanding of maybe the concerns or challenges that people have and the different stakeholders will have when it comes to building these types of of systems. When it comes to policies and processes, so actually for NASPA next year, I did put together a proposal to talk about these types of things when it comes to collaboration and how you go through that. And it is a lot of work to make sure that those systems are in line across the university, but it makes such a big difference when it works for all stakeholders and then all reporting opportunities. And so I'd love to actually go into detail. Melissa Manuel [00:19:00]: I've got so many details on on how to do that, but a lot of it just really takes relationship building across institutions, and I think it takes when it comes to that relationship building piece, is really taking a step back to not defend your department or defend your position, but to say, okay, these are the current concerns they have, and my job is to try and see how I can compromise in a way that really supports the stakeholder, maybe educate a little bit to understand. So maybe some things are accredited related. I don't have control over that, but we need to meet accreditation requirements, so we have to do it a certain way. Or saying, you know what? They do it, and they have a really different ideas. Let's see if I can benchmark to see how it's worked in other institutions. And the other thing that I find is really helpful working for a lot of startup institutions, and I think the NASPA Student Affairs community is so good at this, is having relationships at other institutions to be able to benchmark, and not only benchmark, but to say, okay, I've benchmarked this, you do it like this, what is your opinion on it? Does it work for you? And really get a in-depth feel of how things are going to affect your student stakeholders. So I know that was a little bit of a roundabout, coming back to how those systems work, and I know that's a very general way of doing that. But when it comes to technology, at least, I think everybody's in line with that is we want things that make sense, that don't take a lot of time, that are easy to read, and that can configure across all different types of departments and areas in a way that people understand. Melissa Manuel [00:20:21]: And I'll just give a quick example of what that means is defining certain things. So I think the word matriculation, for example, or even admitted student or registered student, that maybe sound, oh, yeah, I know what that means. Yes, maybe generally you do, but on a reporting level, that can have many different meanings. I think it's really important that the systems that you're putting together are predefined and making sure everybody is aware of what those things mean when those things come out because I think that's where a lot of issues do arise. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:48]: What is a student is a question I've wrestled through at a couple of different institutions in my career because we do mean something different if we're talking to our admissions team than if we're talking to our registrar team than if we're talking to our student conduct and behavioral intervention teams. How we define that student has many, many implications. And it's interesting that you get to wrestle with that question from the moment, one, before the student has even arrived. I wanted to ask you a little bit about because you mentioned technology, if you had begun to integrate any forms of artificial intelligence or AI into the work you're doing since you are building this system from the ground up? Melissa Manuel [00:21:24]: Short answer is yes. Again, I think we're very lucky working for new institutions to be able to use that technology very early on, and there's been some really great research out there. So IASIS, the International Association of Student Affairs and Services, also did a really great work last year looking at how student affairs professionals felt with technology and what type of technology they were using and where they see that going. And I think that's really a fabulous way to start to kinda get the temperature of where student affairs is and where higher ed is. In general, and I I think even regardless of what research has shown, higher education in general can be really tricky when it comes to using these types of tools. And Brian Rosenberg came out with a really great article last year, entitled Higher Eds Ruinous Resistance to Change because realistically, we are really slow and that does mean that we have been a little bit slower in other areas as well. That doesn't mean that we're not gonna get there but I think just having to use that technology, we're a little bit more behind because we don't have enough experience using it and where we can use it and where it's beneficial to use it. So some of the areas that have been of interest to me and my team is using AI to look at transcripts, to be able to auto read transcripts and be able to maybe make admission decisions or at least preliminary decisions a little bit quicker. Melissa Manuel [00:22:41]: Maybe looking at transfer credit. What I would love to be able to see is request for transfer credits or equivalencies, be able to have AI be able to actually say, okay, this is the course. I've looked online. I found this description. I have the syllabi. What are the equivalencies, maybe, globally that could be used and whether that course potentially could be used for transfer credit and then providing that maybe as a manual check afterward with our faculty to be able to say, okay, this is accurate or not. So we don't have a lot of those databases really full yet to be able to, I think, have a lot of confidence in those uses, but it is there. Personalized learning. Melissa Manuel [00:23:14]: So if a student is interested in something, they maybe can provide goals or interests or activities they enjoy, and then have AI be able to create curriculum and opportunities for them where they can get involved and maybe expand on what they are already interested in. And I think that also can be used for weaknesses as well to say, okay, I've noticed maybe across all these courses that you're writing in statistics, let's say, is a little bit weak. Maybe let's focus on some statistics work so that you can increase in all your courses. So it's not just, oh, you've been struggling in this course, but maybe be able to see holistically across all courses. So things that are harder for people to do manually, to be able to just dump in data and be able to provide trends to say, oh, look, this demographic of student maybe is struggling because maybe they're commuting from a different way and this highway is actually really bad, and there's a lot of snowstorms or sandstorms there. We need to maybe provide a couple little bit more opportunity for those guys to take online courses or something during those periods. So I think it'd be really interesting to see it be used in ways that we haven't been able to use it in the past. The other thing that we wanted to make sure is that, again, any technology that we're using can speak across the board to other areas. Melissa Manuel [00:24:27]: And so again, I am defining what it means for a student to be an applicant, what it means for a student to be admitted, what does it mean for a student to be matriculated. And with all those types of definitions, then the system can really put that together because I have seen a lot of different systems be able to provide that information separately, but it means different things. You can't put it together because those systems speak different languages. One speaking Greek where a student means x and another speaking something else where it means y. So really starting from scratch, we've been able to try and make sure that we're speaking the same institutional and reporting types of language. That's very administrative, but it can make a very big difference for ensuring that we are knowing the trends of our students, and then being able to react and change appropriately, and pivot a little more quickly, which again, I think has been a really big struggle for higher education to be able to do. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:14]: Melissa, I wanna move towards our theme questions for this season. Again, we're focused on the past, present, and future of student affairs. We've had a wonderful conversation about the present. So I'm gonna ask you about the past. What's one component of the history of our profession that you think we need to be able to carry forward or inversely something we need to let go of? Melissa Manuel [00:25:32]: I think we've already talked a little bit about this, but that holistic sense and that one on one relationship as, I mean, and this is going to happen in any type of industry and you see this a lot in corporations, is that as industries and organizations grow, that individual connection potentially gets lost because students are now numbers, they're not people, and we're focused on our KPIs. We're focused on our outcomes rather than really maybe success just means that a student had a wonderful experience. Maybe they were a b student, and maybe they have done very ordinary things that an institution doesn't feel is really, wow, big KBI check. But having made a big difference in a student's life, I think that is just as important, and I know that makes it difficult when it comes to measuring an organization's success. But I think for anybody working in this field and passionate about this field that they understand that. So I would like to see a little bit more of maybe that jack of all trades come back where individuals and staff can actually follow students throughout their cycle and build that relationship. And you can see that with with teachers as well, and let's say k to 12 types of systems is that one teacher that really believed in that student and followed them through. Even though they're maybe no longer that student's teacher, they're still a part of that life, that student's life. Melissa Manuel [00:26:40]: And when the student graduates, they come back to that teacher and say, wow, you made a really big difference. So I would like to see more of that. I think to do that, I think we need to try and break silos, which again I do think is happening. So when it comes to a trend of student affairs, I do see that. I think we might also be more forced to try and move in that direction for a few different reasons. One is budget. You'll see a lot of institutions, especially in the US, are struggling with budget cuts. And the first place that we tend to see that often is in, I think, in student activities and student affairs. Melissa Manuel [00:27:09]: So if we're more collaborative and working with other units a little bit more holistically, then I think that becomes a little bit easier. I think that again, there's a lot of opportunity and learning between students and staff that we can have, and having again lifelong learners as well coming through and making sure that we are adhering to that type of model. And then the other trend that I would like to see and continue to see is the international student mobility piece. So there are a lot of increasing opportunities for students to travel abroad and register with a variety of institutions, and again, I think this provides an opportunity for that more holistic piece because we're bringing a lot of new flavors to student affairs because now we're catering to incoming international students, and we ourselves, like me, might not might be non native to the country that we're working in. And then we're also catering to the outgoing students who maybe need some cultural training for wherever they plan to go. And I think that's a natural progression with globalization as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:04]: Moving into the present, what's happening in the field of student affairs right now that is going well? Melissa Manuel [00:28:09]: Something that I would absolutely love to bring into Saudi, and I do think that there will be an opportunity to do this, and we're starting to see some younger, more innovative institutions do this, and I think it's great, is making a more student driven student affairs. So for example, student affairs organizations, they want to set up clubs and they want spaces and provide resources and they really want to give students everything they possibly can, and I think that's great. But research does show that people are far more invested in programs when they have been part of developing them. So I'd like to see student affairs become more a facilitator for students to grow their own programs, and then also manage them, providing students with the opportunity for learning through maybe business management, procurement, budgeting, leadership, succession planning, and really handing over, putting that all together might be a little more messy. But it gives something that you just can't get through regular curriculum or if somebody has given you all those things to start with and you don't understand or maybe appreciate the value of what you have. Then I also think that that would allow organizations to pivot and change more easily as the student demographics change and maybe as society changes. When institutions, for example, they spend resources, let's say, on building a state of the art maker space, they've hired staff to run it, they've got managers, they have all the supplies, they're maybe more likely to keep that investment. But if students ask for that space, they staff it, they maybe do the fundraising to get those materials. Melissa Manuel [00:29:31]: It is now their project. The students that are governing that space can then pivot and recognize change again a lot faster than I think institutions can. In Texas, there's been a new, I think actually it's a k twelve system, but it's affiliated with a college in Texas called Opportunity Central, where students run businesses that are used by all the community members like a mall, and they have everything on the 1st floor of the school within the traditional classrooms above. And there's a lot of non student based businesses there that also get reduced lease costs, lease costs if they mentor students. And that for me is the ideal example of collaboration at its finest because you're maximizing experiential opportunities for students in almost every way imaginable. And then you're also minimizing weaknesses like reliance on external vendors that may not care or cooperate with stakeholders, and then also reducing overall operational costs. And I will, as a side note, say I am an entrepreneur. I have owned my own businesses, and one of the things that I love to do is time for pay. Melissa Manuel [00:30:23]: So if I have clients who want to become more involved and maybe limited in some way, whether that's time, money, opportunity, etcetera, I offer an exchange. So for example, if a student cannot pay for courses, they can help with some of the administrative burden like responding to emails and checking other students in. And in this way, they are becoming more a part of the community and are invested in the services they are providing because they're more familiar with the client base. While I, as the company fulfill a need that I would have to pay for anyway, but I'm far more likely to get a more dedicated employee because they have an understanding and empathy in a way that maybe an external individual would not. So I think there's a lot you can do to gain a lot of experience, but then also reduce those costs that are gonna come with those things. And so I think there's things that can happen on both sides. I'd love to see the future of student affairs move in that direction and the future of institutions really to move in that direction. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:15]: And as we're talking about the future, in an ideal world, what does our profession need to do to thrive towards the future? Melissa Manuel [00:31:22]: I I'm gonna bring it back to, I think, a a word that I probably said too much, but collaboration. And I think that comes with more research into what we can do better, more research into our stakeholders, and more reading of research and ideas outside of our own regions. So for example, I am doing my PhD in the States right now, and I do recognize I am doing it in United States, and therefore, it is an American type of model that I'm looking at. But there's so much great research that's coming out from other regions and countries that are doing things differently. And what I have actually come back to my institution about is to say, we need to use that a little bit more. And really, I think a lot of the student affairs degrees that are coming out really should take more of a holistic look at the research that is in other areas. It may not be applicable, but it might just be that light bulb to say, wow, you know, we could do it like that or maybe that's an idea we could backpack it and change it in some way. So really again coming more into that globalization type of sphere because again we're gonna have international students from all over anyway and employees are moving all over. Melissa Manuel [00:32:15]: And again just building that collaborative, I think, environment for wanting to do a better job and really learning to change maybe a little bit more quickly is what I think we need to be able to thrive as an industry and as a profession. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:27]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:33]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a lot of things happening in NASPA. The NASPA strategies conference provides student affairs professionals with the knowledge and skills to effectively address collegiate alcohol and drug misuse prevention, mental health, sexual violence prevention and response peer education and well-being through a variety of comprehensive and integrative approaches. Registration is now open for the 2025 NASPA Strategies Conference, which is happening January 16th through January 18th in Boston, Massachusetts. In Boston, Massachusetts. Early registration deadline is closing on October 29th. So you still have time to register for this amazing conference and save some money along the way. This will be an amazing conference for anyone that is interested in alcohol and other drugs, mental health, peer education, sexual violence prevention, and more. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:27]: I highly encourage you to check it out on the NASPA website. The 2025 NASPA Symposium on Military Connected Students is the association premier event designed for student affairs practitioners supporting military connected students. The symposium is your exclusive opportunity to share evidence based practices from your campus or organization. You can learn from leading researchers in the field and engage with other professionals committed to supporting military connected students. This is a 3 day symposium which features keynote speakers, keynote sessions, research policy and best practice presentations and workshop style sessions to help campus professionals develop or enhance their programming and services for military connected students. This symposium is happening on February 18th to February 20th in Las Vegas, Nevada. Early registration closes on December 16, 2024. You can find out more on the NASPA website. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:23]: The fall 2024 issue of Leadership Exchange is available, and this issue is focused entirely on democracy Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:27]: on campus. Throughout the entire issue, you're going to find strategies to cultivate active and engaged citizens. There's a number of amazing articles from people all over the country that will open your eyes to ways in which you can engage students on your own campus as we enter into the final weeks of a very busy fall season, especially in regard to democracy on campus. I highly encourage you to check it out. You can go under publications on the NASPA website to find the Leadership Exchange and be able to read the articles for yourself or share it with another colleague. It is October and that means it is careers in student affairs month. And throughout this month, there have been a number of opportunities, events that are geared toward not only providing you with a good glimpse on our profession, but also to encourage others to consider our profession. We've got a number of great presentations still coming up this month. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:33]: These opportunities are free and you can register yourself or register some of your students for them. On October 16th, we have a presentation at 3 pm Eastern. We have a presentation called Pathways to Becoming an Assistant or Associate Vice President of student affairs. If you're eager to advance in leadership roles within student affairs, the panel will discuss the essential skills, experiences, and strategies necessary to transition successfully from a mid level position to an assistant or associate VP role. On October 22nd, navigating the challenges of being a new professional in student affairs. In this informative session, you can join the mid level administration and new professional and graduate student steering committee to talk about the challenges, opportunities, and strategies for navigating the challenges faced in navigating the field as a new professional or graduate student. On October 24th, tap in and turn me up. Learn more about careers and student affairs in this session. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:35]: It is, this session is designed exclusively for undergraduate students interested in the profession of student affairs. If you've got undergraduate students at your own campus that are interested in our profession, this is the session for your students to take advantage of. Also on October 24th, we'll be having a social. The NASPA CSAM social is an informal event space for participants that connect with other new professionals and graduate student members and explore connections that bring together the field of student affairs. And then finally, October 30th, 2024, state of student affairs, a conversation with NASPA president, Doctor. Amelia Pardell and NASPA board chair, Chair Doctor. Ana Gonzalez for a discussion on the current state of student affairs, as well as the future of the field from the perspective of association leadership. I hope you'll be able to take advantage of some of these different sessions and learn about our profession, learn about ways in which you can engage further in our profession and get other people engaged in our profession. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:36]: Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association, and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:01]: Chris, thank you so much for sharing with us what's going on in and around NASPA. And, Melissa, we are with our lightning round now. I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. Ready to go? Yes. Alright. Question 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Melissa Manuel [00:39:18]: Born to be wild. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:19]: Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up? Melissa Manuel [00:39:22]: Not just an actress, but a famous actress. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:25]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Melissa Manuel [00:39:28]: Oh, one of the deans at my previous institution. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:30]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Melissa Manuel [00:39:33]: JSARP, of course. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:34]: Number 5, the best TV show you've been binging lately. Melissa Manuel [00:39:37]: I actually don't watch TV, but if I did have to choose something to binge, I would probably go back to old and faithful Friends. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:44]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Melissa Manuel [00:39:48]: Absolutely. The Huberman Lab. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:49]: And finally, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? Melissa Manuel [00:39:53]: To all the individuals that I've worked with over the years, everybody has made an impact in my life and then therefore into student affairs in general. So thank you to my entire holistic experience. And, Melissa, if anyone would like to connect with you after the show, Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:03]: how can they find you? You can find me on LinkedIn if you Melissa Manuel [00:40:09]: search Melissa Manuel. You'll see all the history of me working in the Arabian Gulf. I'm always open for a chat. I love connecting with colleagues, with peers, with mentors. Anybody really that wants to chat almost about anything, always there. And you can also contact me via email at melissa [email protected]. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:27]: Melissa, thank you so so much for sharing your voice with us today. Melissa Manuel [00:40:30]: Thank you very much for having me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:36]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill l Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:14]: That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Navigating the Past, Present, and Future with Kamakshi Velamuri In the latest episode of SA Voices from the Field hosts Dr. Jill Creighton spoke with Kamakshi Velamuri, a rising senior at North Carolina University (NCCU) who aspires to pursue a career in student affairs. The episode, rich with personal stories and professional insights, explores the challenges, triumphs, and future aspirations for higher education professionals. This blog post delves into the key themes discussed during this insightful conversation. Navigating Educational and Career Paths Kamakshi’s journey into student affairs began with a keen interest in education reform. Initially aspiring to become a teacher, her direction shifted toward becoming an educational consultant and eventually focusing on student affairs. The consistency in her passion for education reform has guided her through these transitions and solidified her commitment to creating a positive impact within the higher education system. Addressing Challenges in Student Affairs Kamakshi articulated several key challenges in student affairs: Curriculum Issues: Standardized testing, GPA concerns, and outdated curriculums need reform. Staff and Faculty Challenges: Overwork, insufficient staffing, resource constraints, and underpayment are prevalent issues. Wage Gap and Economic Challenges: Dr. Jill Creighton emphasized the wage gap in the student affairs profession and the anticipated impact of upcoming federal overtime laws. These challenges underscore the need for systemic changes to ensure well-being and fair compensation for all professionals in the field. The Importance of Student Support Systems Kamakshi shared her experiences as a first-generation Asian Indian female student at an HBCU. She discussed the cultural and familial expectations she navigated while pursuing a non-STEM career. Her story highlights the importance of support systems for nontraditional students who face unique challenges. She highlighted experiences of microaggressions and emphasized the role of diversity and inclusion departments, counseling centers, and peer mentoring groups in providing support. Reflecting on the History and Future of Student Affairs When discussing the broader scope of student affairs, Kamakshi and the hosts reflected on the importance of learning from the past while addressing ongoing and future concerns. The profession has seen improved collaboration among staff and faculty, leading to better support for students. However, Kamakshi emphasized the necessity of continuous and structured efforts for progress and adaptation. Shaping the Future: Kamakshi’s Vision Kamakshi’s vision for the future of student affairs involves intellectual and practical reform. She advocates for stronger collaboration between student affairs and academic affairs and calls for practical life skills education beyond traditional academics. The need to address economic challenges, mental health issues, and basic needs like housing affordability is crucial for the well-being of contemporary college students. Building Systemic Change Together The conversation concluded with Kamakshi’s optimistic outlook on long-term systemic change. Dr. Jill Creighton echoed this sentiment, quoting an African proverb: "If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together." This mantra highlights the collective effort required to bring about meaningful change. The Lightning Round: Getting to Know Kamakshi To showcase the lighter side of their guest, Dr. Jill Creighton led Kamakshi Velamuri through a rapid-fire "lightning round”: Entrance Music for a Keynote: "This Girl is on Fire" by Alicia Keys Childhood Dream: To be a kind, influential person Most Influential Mentor: Miss Lauren, a board member Essential Student Affairs Read: None specifically, as she is not keen on reading Recent TV Show Binge: Occasionally "The Office" for fun Favorite Podcast: Enjoys yoga, meditation, and nonprofit reform podcasts Shout-outs: To herself for reaching her current position and to NASPA professionals for their support and respect These questions offered a glimpse into Kamakshi's personality, hobbies, and the influences that have shaped her journey so far.   Connect with Kamakshi Listeners inspired by Kamakshi's journey can reach out to her via email at [email protected], [email protected], or connect with her on LinkedIn. Final Thoughts This episode of "Dads with Daughters" offers valuable insights into the challenges and future of student affairs through the lens of a passionate and driven young professional. Kamakshi Velamuri’s story is a testament to the power of perseverance, support systems, and collective effort in shaping the future of higher education.   About our guest Kamakshi Velamuri is a rising senior at North Carolina Central University (NCCU), majoring in Interdisciplinary Studies. She founded an education nonprofit in high school to advocate for meaningful reform in the education system. Kamakshi plans to pursue a master’s in Higher Education Administration to become a student affairs professional. As a first-generation student leader, Kamakshi brings a unique perspective to the world. Her passion and focus is on driving positive change in education reform.   TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created through Castmagic) Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: KamakshiWelcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on Essay Voices, I'm thrilled to feature an undergraduate student,  Kamakshi Velamuri is a rising senior at North Carolina University or NCCU, majoring in interdisciplinary studies. She founded an education nonprofit in high school to advocate for meaningful reform in the education system. Kamakshi plans to pursue a master's in higher ed to become a student affairs professional. As a first generation student leader, Kamakji brings a unique perspective to the world. Her passion and focus is on driving positive change in education reform. Kamakshi, welcome to essay voices from the field.  Kamakshi Velamuri [00:00:55]: Thank you for the welcome. I'm excited.  Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:56]: You're welcome. Welcome to SA Voices from the Field. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:00:59]: Thank you for the welcome. I'm excited. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:01]: You are one of our, I think, maybe only undergraduate students to appear on the podcast or maybe 1st or second. You're also enough, and you've spent quite a bit of time growing into a future career in student affairs. So you're the perfect person to have on for the season of the past, present, and future of student affairs. Normally, we kick off our episodes by asking our guests how they got to their current professional seat. But since you're an aspiring student affairs professional, I'm hoping you can talk about your undergraduate journey and how you've arrived at the decision that the student affairs profession is where you wanna be. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:01:33]: Definitely. So my journey has actually started since elementary. It's kind of crazy how that goes back to. But I originally wanted to become a teacher since I've seen amazing teachers, of course, bad teachers too, but focusing on the positive side, they've inspired me. And since then to high school, I was on that mindset of being a teacher until I moved or transitioned into education law or that kind of career vibe. And then I got to college with all hopes of getting into law school after graduation. But I was told by my career counselor that I should rather be an educational consultant. So long story short, I did a reflection and realized, yes, I wanted to be all these different roles. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:02:15]: But at the end of the day, they all had a common point, which was education system as a whole. So I was like, so why did I want to do education system keeping those roles aside? And that's when I realized it's all about education reform and how I'm personally the type of person. I'm not like since I had to deal with it, everybody has to deal with it. So I wanted to make sure if I struggled that the next generation did not have to struggle, and then I voice the concerns because everybody can stay complaining, but who is actually putting in the work to resolve these issues? And that's the thing that motivated me into getting student affairs in specific because I felt like with student affairs in specific, I would have the opportunity to be a point of contact in a way with my advising role or some kind of role to a point where I work with students, staff, and faculty, and I can influence a group of a collective of people. And then if I were to go for advocacy or reform to any kind of administration, I have a backup of people that can come work with me and advocate together. Because I feel like the more people that join in, the louder the voice is and the more clear it is to the administration of the importance in making the decision or changing the system, in other words. So I felt like student affairs could be a platform or an industry I could use to kind of really get those people to work together on the change. Because I know if I go by myself and say this is wrong, he won't listen to me. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:03:46]: They need research. They need backup and people to be collectively saying that this is a concern. So that's why I feel like student affairs was the best place to still do reform, because I could do reform in whatever industry, but I chose this would be more of a not just easy, but, like, a productive way to make change while I enjoy it. Because as a student myself, since middle school, I've always been in leadership roles, SGA, whatever it could be. So I enjoy that stuff. I enjoy product management, project management, event planning, pretty much everything that specifically student affairs entitles into. And then as I discovered this, I realized I started a nonprofit in high school, but that also was also education reform. So it kind of, like, all connected together, how everything was working. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:04:35]: And, of course, as I was in college and realized this dream, I was already working with the office of vice chancellor at our campus. So, fortunately, the vice chancellor of our campus is the liaison for NASPA. And, generally, my mentor for NASPA, NUF program, is also part of the Office of Vice Chancellor. So I kinda worked with all of them in joining it and then built my connections and to make it more of a reality. So that's kinda my journey into figuring out what this is. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:06]: I think you may have figured out quite a bit earlier than a lot of us that student affairs was a viable career path for you with what makes you passionate and how you want to affect systems for students. Now the reasons may sound similar across time for student affairs professionals about why we come into the field. We're generally a group of people who are designing experiences for students with the hopes that we're impacting positive change or creating support systems or helping people exercise critical thinking skills or what have you, you know, that co curricular experience. So what part of student affairs are you hoping to center into as you begin your journey? Kamakshi Velamuri [00:05:42]: So it totally depends on time because, like, you can see since middle school to now, it kinda changed. I always have plans. One thing about me people can tell you about that know me is I'm all about planning and organizing and actually overplanning. So I'm ready to take career anything that involves event planning, programming, and a direct contact with students. But I want to make sure that, yes, they're having fun through events, but they're also getting purposeful outcomes and objectives. So that's why even when I plan programming that it kind of align, actually has objectives, like a lesson or something that they can take away. Even if it's a fun event, they take away social wellness or something of that sort. So I feel like that kind of work can give me a fun, exciting, and something that I'm good at and I enjoy doing, but also can impact the students. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:06:34]: So I feel like anything event planning, so maybe, I mean, every department has event planning. I personally worked with the Seal of our campus, Student Engagement Leadership Department, and I've worked with different departments within that. Student Orgs, I've always, I'm part of Through Student Orgs myself as a leader. So I feel like that kind of journey is the start of my career because I've been in it, and I can just expand more on, like, the knowledge of it and eventually get up to whatever role it takes me to. But no matter what I do, I wanna involve learning or advocacy, but in a fun way because students like fun. I like lessons. How do we combine them is my mission. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:14]: As a current student, what types of challenges are you and your peers currently facing that you wanna be the problem solver for as you come into the profession? Kamakshi Velamuri [00:07:23]: So when I did choose to come to this profession, I already decided there were some concerns that I definitely wanna take place in or advocating for. And one of it is really just curriculum. I know that it's not easy to work on, but for me, education reform meant student issues with standardized testing, GPA, outdated curriculum, and then staff and faculty issues. As I got into NASBA, and like just in general, some other higher education as a whole, I realized staff and faculty are the point of contact for students and parents, and they're blamed for anything and everything sometimes that are not even under their control because administrators or the government made those rules. But I feel like staff and faculty issues with overworking, understaffed, under resourced, underfunded. These kind of issues are important. Also, underpaid. That's one thing. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:08:16]: We're all in here for passion because I feel like the amount of wage issues we have is kind of concerning. And then just in general, wellness as a whole, I don't feel I feel like we try to prioritize wellness, especially last few years, but there's more to go into it. And sometimes, like, we try to find work life balance or wellness as a whole, but that's not realistic. So also, like, that learning, not just for students, but for staff and faculty so that, there's more resources for them and everyone. But personally, one thing I care about is nutrition. I feel like campus foods could be better. There's a lot of issues with it. I tried doing a research project, it never worked out, but I would probably do that for my master's or PhD, who knows, which is my goals. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:09:01]: But I know there's a lot of other issues with diversity inclusion, title 9, safety, accessibility to nontraditional students. One of the main populations I wanna serve is nontraditional students because we always forget that they're students from different cultural, economic, religious backgrounds, and to serve all of them is really important. People come from different backgrounds. How can you accommodate everyone is important. So I know that's a lot, and sometimes people tell me you're very unrealistic with abolishing standardized testing, abolishing GPA or outdated curriculum. And I'm like, probably I mean, yes, it's probably, like, unrealistic for now. But eventually, I know that it's a process or a journey that I could reach. And I'm just at the start of my journey, so there's a long time to achieve this. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:50]: You're a future VPSA in the making. You've got long range goals. And if you're going to change systems, it takes time. We have a colleague, I would say a late colleague actually, who loved the quote, if you want to go far, go together. If you want to go fast, go alone. It's an African proverb. And that was said often by Mary Anita Nesbitt, who was a colleague of mine at Washington State University. And she really lived that through her work, and that is something I hear you're working towards. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:18]: So I I like to see those threads tugged on, by multiple people across space and time. And as you look forward to that, how are you approaching the journey into possible master's programs? Kamakshi Velamuri [00:10:29]: So like I said, I'm a huge planner. So I've already started my planning, like, long time ago. But event starting this summer, I've gotten more serious about it with my master's planning so that I could apply. December is the deadline for a lot of programs. So kind of researching what programs are there and what meets my needs. One thing about me with master's planning or anything, I'm also, like, the type of person that thinks as much as a program or even a job recruits me, I'm also getting into that program. So, I mean, my needs also met. So I have some requirements for myself of, like, choosing between in person or online programs, if I should do graduate assistantship jobs or anything of that sort. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:11:09]: So there's a lot of options. But most importantly, I feel like I wanna figure out what are the ethics, values, and purpose of each of these programs in different institutions? Because I understand that not my whole, like, handbook of myself of ethics values could align with the institution's policies. But at least them understanding and accepting or respecting my perspective is important to me, because I don't wanna get to a space and have negative trauma or any kind of concerns. So I wanna prevent that before I get there. So in that sense, also realizing that. So I'm in the journey of, like, planning, figuring out what requirements or financial requirements. I'm a 1st generation student. So also, like, making sure that I understand what I'm doing, and I'm doing this kind of, like, alone, you know, most first gen students. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:11:57]: So kind of figuring that out. And kind of the main thing I'm doing right now is scheduling a meeting with different people within an institution. I felt like with the same point I just started off with. I need to meet with an admission or HR office, a professor, a student, and alum for each institution I want to go to, so that I get different perspectives of living at an institution. Sometimes I might not be able to do that for every institution, but my hope is to do that so I can get make the best decision. But I have chosen top 3 universities I'll definitely apply that I know of, so I'm ready for it. And I feel like it's important that I take this step in my higher education, especially as a 1st year student, because just starting undergrad itself is big deal. And then continuing to master's program is a whole another level of a challenge. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:12:49]: So I feel like there's gonna be challenges coming in between with the background I come from and kind of making sure everybody understands that or just that me sticking still and strong on my words and my needs. So there will be challenges, but I'm ready for everything, I guess. And that's kinda like where I'm at with master's program. And, really, me as an individual, I feel like no matter what I choose, I'm an overthinker, but I also wanna make sure I'm actually planned and prepared because I don't wanna get into something and struggle to a point. I'm I mean, I would struggle, but at least I wanna be ready for it or prepared for it, which is why I kind of am in the plans. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:32]: You mentioned that your background is having an influence on your selection process. Would you mind sharing some of your background with our listeners? Kamakshi Velamuri [00:13:40]: Definitely. So there's a lot of background identities I take myself pride in or perspective in. So one of which is being an Asian and specifically Indian, and that brings a huge influence as to my education, my lifestyle, and everything. And I say that to say because my whole family of 1 and also my gender as a female. Majority of females within India or Asia are not still working or not still studying, if that makes sense. So even my family has a background. Pretty much my mom and pretty every woman from last generations have not studied or graduated or anything of that sort. They got married early on and or housewives, which I support. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:14:26]: Everybody's journey is different, but they weren't given the option. So for me, I have the option or that which I'm grateful for. Some of this is like, oh, it's a basic need to have education. But for me, sometimes, for some people coming from different backgrounds, more than a need, it's us getting that, like, individual morality from our family and support, which I appreciate my family for. But that also gives me a huge challenge or responsibility to keep my word in that education past. But, again, the identity of being an Asian and Indian as a female that, like, statistics from how it was from past to now and how you want to be the change maker in your in, area is important. Being a 1st gen student, is also crazy because you have no support from family, so you kinda have to freestyle everything. Lot of, wood statistics again. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:15:21]: I feel like, a lot of first and students are overachievers. They wanna make sure everything's perfect. They wanna do everything they can to get acceptance from their community, their family, and everything of that sort. So it's a challenge, but I feel like those identities involve a lot of hard work. And I'm willing to put my time and effort into it, but I feel like these are really significant. My identities with my gender roles within my community of being an Indian or Asian, and also with the subject I chose. It's kind of irregular within my background to choose education system, like work or career within the education system. Everybody, we know the stereotype, Asians go to STEM. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:16:04]: And I'm fully opposed to that. But again, that's depending on the choice of people. But I want to break break those stigmas, stereotypes, microaggressions, or everything and prove people wrong that I could still make it in life, in other words, or grow without being in a STEM major, without doing the specific pathway, an individual creative for me, whereas I have to create my own pathway, if that makes sense. So my identity has given me so much influence onto what I should do, how I should lead my life and that in a positive way, but it comes with a lot of challenges. So it's like you gotta balance it out and choose what's best for you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:46]: And you chose to attend an HBCU for your undergraduate experience to receive the support and care that you needed as a person of color in the higher education community, as a first gen student. What are some of the things that your institution has done exceptionally well to ensure that you have that support safety net in place as you move through your undergraduate career. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:17:06]: Definitely. So that's one of the greatest thing I've specifically experienced last few years in a good and bad way, but the bad way has told me the resources I've on campus. So I had to deal with the concern on campus and I had to report it. And then I got the full support from my diversity and inclusion department on campus. They were very supportive and they gave me the resources I needed, counseling center, and so much more. So I feel like, yes, there won't be, like, a full not sure what the word is, but, like, a whole red carpet pathway of welcome. There will be challenges and issues. I had to face an offensive statement, a body shaming, and a racial slur on a HBCU. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:17:49]: But still I made it through with the support, with staff and faculty. So I was directed to the resources we had. And most importantly, sometimes it's not really the resources on campus, but the people you meet on campus that you connect with. There's a lot of peer mentoring groups and peer support, and I personally support a lot of my peers whenever they have these kind of challenges, and they're always there for me. One of the biggest reasons were I had to figure out this whole journey of why am I falling into these issues or stuff like that. And then these friends, I guess. I can't even believe that they're my friends because if you think about my past to now, I wouldn't assume that this would have gone this way. But I feel like at the end of the day, it's a well put out book. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:18:36]: It has a beginning and end conclusion, which is still continuing, like, as a chapters of life. But I feel like it's coming together already. So it's just we have resources, but sometimes it's just next to you, and you gotta realize the people that are near you could also be a resource. It does not necessarily have to be a department. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:56]: As we get older as a generation of student affairs professionals, we are farther and farther away from the present day student experience in terms of how it reflected our own experience. And it's our job to change our mindsets with new generations of students and different needs and different sets of expectations and all of those things. What would you like current student affairs professionals to know about the present day college experience, especially for students in that kind of average 18 to 25 year old range that maybe we're not seeing or not thinking about or you wish we thought about more? Kamakshi Velamuri [00:19:30]: This is a clear answer for me, and I'm excited to share this because it's a problem, honestly, that I wish a lot of staff and faculty realize, it's the collaboration I wish, the bridge between student affairs and academic affairs that I wish is not broken and that we can kind of combine together for collaboration. And I've always discussed about it and the way it impacts students. Because I feel like with students, especially student leaders as a whole, we have a lot of stuff on our plate and we're passionate about student leadership to a point. We're part of 1,000 student orgs, extracurriculars. Most of us do 2 to 3 jobs and a lot of other things apart from academics. Ideally, from past and history, from what I've heard, everybody was like, education come in and out of class, and that is all you gotta do for the degree, which is still the reality of getting a degree. But college life is more than just getting that degree. It's experiencing life as a part of college life. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:20:32]: I felt like in past, it was like when you're in college or when you're in just like your education era, it was more of education was your life. Now people have realized with the 8 dimensions of wellness, it's reality of wellness or life as a whole. There's more to life than education. It's part of your life. It's not your life. And so I wish staff and faculty realize the struggle that students are going through in balancing because they're still students. Sometimes staff forget, oh, they're adults. They gotta figure it out. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:21:03]: But it the reality is, yes, we're trying to figure it out. We're still trying to figure it out. Most of the adults that have graduated are still trying to figure it out and change stuff, their careers, or anything in a minute. So them expecting us to have our life together once we get to college because we're adults is kind of unrealistic because we have to go through some issues with maybe family emergencies or just in general life as a whole in balancing social life, extracurriculars, and how this generation is in a competition. Of course, every generation is it. But like for me, I feel like because of the economic state, we're trying to get jobs, we're trying to live because in past, you guys could afford a house to buy a house. Now we can't afford to rent a house. That says a lot. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:21:50]: And us, we want to make sure that we gain as much experience as possible to get a job that can pay for basic needs, because unfortunately, I feel like a lot of students can't even meet the basic needs because of the economic state. And I wish staff and faculty could understand that as we're dealing with this concern, because it's important that, yes, we have academics, but can we actually have a practical life skills and actually learn that there's more to life than this course and the GPA? Because, yes, this is important, but a number does not define my talent in education. Because outside that classroom, I'm a talented artist. I'm a talented professional. I'm part of 5 orgs. I do this, this, that. And I got 3 awards. And this is me personally. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:22:36]: But, again, a lot of students did have to deal with this, and some of them had to quit a lot of their passions just so they they could get that degree. And was it worth it? Some of them even had to cheat or plagiarize just so they could get a degree. And so it's like, is it worth a degree if you're cheating and just doing something just for the sake of societal expectation of getting the best grade when you can do what you like while also knowing that education is just part of life and also enjoying life as a whole with campus life, which is where student affairs comes into place. And just the fact that, like, with my first point of the bridge between student affairs and academic affairs, I feel like sometimes there's a fight between them. It's like not student affairs and academic affairs, student affairs versus academic affairs. Like, both of those are important. I mean, both divisions are important. But I feel like academic affairs thinks or assume sometimes that student affairs is just giving away random stuff, like gifts and and getting students to do parties and stuff. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:23:40]: But we're more than that. We have a lot of resources we're providing and providing them life. And then academic affairs, as important as doing all this, you're coming to campus paying 1,000 of dollars just for that degree. So it's I'm not saying academics is not important, but I wish that we could collaborate as professionals together with those 2 deficient to make it better for the students. Students already have to go through a lot of other things, especially with the economic state, the journey that they have to go through to just have some basic need. I don't know if that makes sense. I know it was kind of a lot, but it's comes from my experience and my peers. And I just feel like all these concerns that student go through causes a lot of student suicide, student mental health issues, and so much more. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:24:28]: And still, I want to make sure, yes, this sounds like us complaining, but we're complaining for a reason because we've seen our peers struggle through it, and we're barely surviving. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:38]: I think advocating for your needs is not a complaint. Advocating for your needs is what helps us understand what it is that student affairs needs to be doing the same and differently in order to support your journey. That's what we're here to do is to help you develop into a fully functioning member of society as you move across the stage, get your diploma, and then head into the working world wherever that might be. And it is a different economic environment right now than it was 10 years ago, 20 years ago. I do wanna say though, you mentioned that quote unquote you all can afford to buy a house. I think that's only true for, like, baby gen xers and baby boomers. And right now, you know, a lot of millennials are struggling with that too. And I think it's important for our gen z students and young professional colleagues to understand that that is a problem that's been plaguing us for quite a while. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:23]: And so I think that economic perspective is also something that the student affairs profession really is going to need to come to terms with pretty soon here. The federal overtime laws, I think, are gonna make an impact on how things change for us. But I think more often than not, we have a wage gap in the profession, and that's just something that I know everyone is trying to figure out how to tackle. And I don't know that any of us have done it well or right yet, but it's gotta be something that we reckon with as a field. So that leads me right into our theme questions for the season. So, Kamaakji, I have 3 questions for you on the past, present, and future. So on the past, what's one component of the history of the student affairs profession that you think we should either continue to carry forward or we really need to let go of? Kamakshi Velamuri [00:26:08]: So I have a long answer, but I'll keep it short. I feel like with any system, but focusing on educational system, sometimes it's build with pillars with that foundation. So I wish people realize that whenever we got some kind of new thing, that they don't just concentrate on that, but go back and actually resolve one concern. Because I feel like with any system, there's been back to back issues. And so people, whatever is a current issue, they're focusing on that, doing whatever they couldn't to resolve it, but realize the past issue has never been resolved. So I feel like with the history, I wish there's a change in terms of how people realize that, yes, there's a lot of issues, but make sure when you start a project, you finish that concern before you get to another concern kind of thing. So let's say again, as an example, DEI and Title IX. If there's an issue with DEI this year, the Title IX next year, next year people are forgetting all the work they've done with DEI and starting on title 9, but this has never resolved. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:27:09]: So I feel like it's important to stick on one thing, resolve it instead of just building so many blocks and never resolving none of them. It's important to go back and realize we need to rebuild all this because we're renovating, but we actually have to, like, rebuild everything. There's no foundation. There's just pillars. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:30]: Moving into the present, what's happening in the field right now that's going well for student affairs? Kamakshi Velamuri [00:27:36]: I feel like as much as collaboration can be improved, it has been better for the current student affairs journey because the way that we're promoting professional development for staff faculty to support the students then at end of the day is really important with NASPA and many other orgs. So I feel like that's the best thing that's happening in student affairs, the collaboration and the willingness to support staff and faculty as much as we can. Because at the end of the day, they're the point of contact for students. If they're not well, how are the students gonna be well and get the support they need? So I feel like the current state it could be better, but it's definitely been better than in past. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:15]: And looking towards the future, in an ideal world, what does the field need to do to thrive towards our future? Kamakshi Velamuri [00:28:21]: I mentioned with past. I feel like the field needs to get to a conclusion to build collaboration so that they can definitely rebuild the structure of student affairs in a way where it actually is gonna work, and it has a foundation and pillars where everything is gonna be solid. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:42]: So, Kamakshi, is there anything else that you'd like to share on the past, present, and future of the profession? Kamakshi Velamuri [00:28:47]: Well, if I could, I'll share forever and talk with you for hours, but with time's sake. In conclusion, I feel like we had a great conversation, and it's important to talk about this because there's change every day, and we gotta adapt and accommodate the needs of the current generation or be more of current. And so I wish there is more work towards it. I know we are working towards it, but I just wanna make sure with my work that it's definitely a continuous journey of consistency in growth for the collective, and nobody's doing it for themselves. It's, at the end of the day, benefit in the growth of the system. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:28]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:34]: Thanks, Joe. So excited to be back in the NASPA world. Today, I want to start off by congratulating our 2025 pillars of the profession. Each year, the NASPA Foundation recognizes exceptional members of the student affairs and higher education community through the pillars of the profession award, one of the foundation's highest honors. The award comes from you, our members and supporters, as a way to recognize your fellow colleagues who represent outstanding contributions to our field and our organization. Individuals receiving honors this year are Kevin Kruger receiving the 2025 John L Blackburn distinguished pillar of the profession award and the following individuals receiving the 2025 NASPA foundation pillar of the profession. Mordecai Ian Brownlee, Ainsley Carey, Zduy B. Chu, Philip Covington, Frank Cuevas, Jon Dooley, Jacinda M. Félix Haro, Leanna Fenenburg, Anne G. Flaherty, Ann M. Gansemer-Topf, Cynthia L. Hernandez, Mylon J. Kirsky, Ryan Lombardi, Roger Ludeman, Keegan Nichols, Patty Perillo, Frank Ross, Alvin Sturdivant, Rameen Talesh, and Derek Vergara. I am so excited to be able to welcome all of these deserving individuals to the pillars of the profession. And you have an opportunity to be able to celebrate the 2025 pillars of the profession with a donation to the NASPA Foundation in their honor. Take a moment to say thank you to these amazing professionals. You can donate online and learn more about the foundation's pillar class. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:14]: There's still time to sign up for a new short course, campus Crisis Management in Times of Chaos. This course starts online September 23rd and goes through October 25th. You can either register by yourself or for you and a team to acquire the competencies and knowledge that will help you support your students when crisis situations arise. The course will give a broad overview of how student affairs professionals can best support their students and campus during crisis situations. Topics will include foundations of crisis management, crisis management teams, or emergency management teams, the creation of crisis management plans, communications during times of crisis, recovery following an incident, and relationships across the institution and with outside agencies. Registration is still open, and you can sign up up to the live session start of September 23rd. So I highly encourage you to look internally at your own institution for ways to be able to engage your own campus in some amazing dialogues that will help your campus to be ready in times of crisis. I know I've talked about it in the past, and there are always opportunities to be able to give back to the NASPA family and community. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:28]: And one way is through the NASPA journal board. There are a number of opportunities that are currently open for individuals to be able to get involved in our NASPA journal board. Some available opportunities include being an editorial board member or a new professional and graduate student review board member for the Journal of Student Affairs Research and Practice, an editorial board member, or a new professional and graduate student review board member for the Journal of Women and Gender in Higher Education or an editorial board member for the Journal of First Generation Student Success. If any of these sound interesting to you, I highly encourage you to apply for these opportunities. You can find out more on the NASPA website. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways, because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:42]: And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself, where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:37]: Chris, thank you so much for continuing to share with us what's going on in and around NASPA. And, Kamachi, we have reached our lightning round. So I have 7 questions for you to answer in about 90 seconds. You ready to roll? Kamakshi Velamuri [00:34:49]: I'll try my best. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:50]: Alright. Number 1, if you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Kamakshi Velamuri [00:34:55]: This Girl is on Fire. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:57]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up? Kamakshi Velamuri [00:35:02]: I just wanted to be a kind person that had an influence on people just like I was as a child. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:08]: Number 3. Who's your most influential professional mentor? Kamakshi Velamuri [00:35:11]: Oh, I got a list of 1,000 people, but I got to say huge shout out to miss Lauren. She was enough board member, and she's one of my best mentors currently. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:22]: Alright. Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:35:26]: Honestly, I'm not a reading person as much, so I don't have anything as of now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:30]: Number 5, the best TV show you've binged lately. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:35:33]: I'm not watching TV shows. If I were to, it's really like my native language. But I can say I binge on Office at times just for fun because you always need that fun with chaos happening. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:45]: That comfort show. Yeah. Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:35:50]: I don't listen to podcast again as much, but if I do, sometimes my advisers suggest some of these yoga meditation podcasts, so I love to, like, just tune into those. But also, there's been, like, a podcast about reform and nonprofits, which is my kind of industry, so I listen to those too. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:09]: And finally, number 7. Any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? Kamakshi Velamuri [00:36:13]: Oh, shout out to myself. I mean, I've not expected myself to be in this stage, and I feel like a lot of people think this is selfish, but it's important to be selfish for yourself. It's more of self love and care. So I shout out myself for getting to the stage. Like you said, I'm kind of proud of myself for being here today to be part of a NASPA, National Association, and working with all these professionals and the fact that they respect and value me. Yes. I'm an undergraduate student and maybe like that societal normals age and everything changes. But, like, again, the respect I get is really appreciated. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:36:49]: So I'm proud of myself and a huge shout out to me, but also huge shout out to you for pulling this off and doing great stuff. Now this is our first time meeting, but this has been a great pleasure talking with you. And I really appreciate how you led this and all the NASPA professionals, or not just NASPA, everybody, because we're trying our best. I know it's not gonna happen in one day, but we're making it through. And that's a shot at itself. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:12]: It's been a joy to listen to your perspective. And I am very much looking forward to watching your rise in the profession over the next several years. And if anyone would like to connect with you after the show airs, how can they find you? Kamakshi Velamuri [00:37:24]: So my emails, I'll say to, is [email protected] or [email protected] . Eagle pride again. And then you can also find me on LinkedIn with my name, Kamakshi Velamuri, kamakshivelamuri. Thank you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:52]: Kamakshi, thank you so much for sharing your voices with us today. Kamakshi Velamuri [00:37:56]: Thank you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:01]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:43]: Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Artificial Intelligence (AI) is rapidly reshaping various sectors, and academia is no exception. In a recent episode of the SA Voices From the Field podcast, hosted by Dr. Jill Creighton, guest Dr. Daniel Weisglass shared his expert insights on the role, challenges, and potential of AI in higher education. Dr. Weisglass, an assistant professor of philosophy at Duke Kunshan University, delves into academic integrity, student affairs, and the future landscape of education with a particular focus on AI tools. Rethinking Academic Assessments At the heart of the discussion is the need for rethinking traditional academic assessments in light of AI advancements. Dr. Daniel Weisglass emphasizes the importance of critically evaluating the types of assignments given to students. He suggests that faculty members collaborate closely with academic integrity units to adapt their methodologies in response to the changing academic environment. AI, particularly generative models like GPT (Generative Pretrained Transformer), can produce seemingly original essays and content. This poses a significant challenge to traditional assessment techniques, which often rely on evaluating written assignments. Dr. Weisglass advocates for the adaptation of in-person assessments to maintain academic integrity. Such measures echo the early days of Google search usage when educators needed to adapt to a new tool that changed how students accessed information. The Value of Teaching and Mentoring in Student Affairs Maintaining the historically valuable elements of student affairs is another critical point discussed by Dr. Weisglass. He underscores the importance of deep, meaningful connections and personal development in education. The role of mentoring and teaching in shaping students' experiences and growth remains as crucial as ever, despite the growing presence of AI in academia. Dr. Weisglass suggests that while AI can support student affairs professionals by recognizing emotional patterns and raising alerts, it should not replace human interactions. The human aspect of teaching and mentoring is irreplaceable, and AI should serve as a supplementary tool rather than a substitute. Addressing Modern Challenges in Student Affairs The current state of student affairs has seen an increased awareness and maintenance of campus cultures. Dr. Weisglass highlights the new challenges posed by AI-enabled academic and student conduct violations. With the advent of sophisticated AI tools, distinguishing between AI-generated and human-generated content becomes increasingly difficult. To combat these challenges, Dr. Weisglass advocates for developing robust administrative standards for safety and security. He also highlights the necessity of continual responsiveness and adaptation to student needs. As student affairs professionals, it is essential to stay ahead of technological trends and ensure that the academic and personal growth of students is not compromised. Preparing for the Future: Flexibility and Ethical AI Use Looking ahead, Dr. Weisglass envisions a future where student growth remains the primary focus, without leaning too heavily on a customer service-oriented approach. He emphasizes that flexibility, continual responsiveness, and reflective responses are key to effectively preparing students for a rapidly changing world. Incorporating AI into education requires a thoughtful approach to designing prompts and assignments. The goal is to make use of AI tools, like GPT, to support the development of labor-intensive skills such as ethical analysis. Educators need to balance leveraging AI to aid the learning process while maintaining the integrity and authenticity of student work. Embracing AI: Tools and Techniques Dr. Weisglass discusses various AI tools and their applications in higher education: Predictive AI: This AI type forecasts trends and flags at-risk students based on data patterns, such as class attendance. It helps institutions take proactive measures in student support. Generative AI: While capable of generating new content, generative AI raises concerns about academic integrity. This type of AI can fabricate information and compromise data privacy. Gamma Tool and Copilot: Gamma converts Word documents into detailed PowerPoint presentations, aiding in educational settings. Copilot, part of the Office 365 suite, helps summarize emails and meetings, streamlining administrative tasks. Cite.ai: This tool assists in generating literature reviews and finding specific articles within academic research, ensuring the accuracy and authenticity of data. Dr. Weisglass also stresses the importance of ensuring data security agreements with AI tool providers or developing in-house models to safeguard student data. Conclusion The insights shared by Dr. Daniel Weisglass underline the transformative potential of AI in higher education, along with its challenges. The integration of AI tools, such as GPT, must be approached with a balance of innovation and ethical considerations. By rethinking academic assessments and maintaining the human elements of teaching and mentoring, educators can harness AI's potential to enhance the educational experience while preserving the integrity and personal growth of students. As we navigate this evolving landscape, the role of AI in academia will continue to be a dynamic and critical area of exploration. About our guest Daniel Weissglass is an assistant professor of philosophy at Duke Kunshan University, a Sino-US Liberal Arts institution located in near Shanghai. His work focuses on the ethics of science, health, and technology - with a special interest in the use of artificial intelligence to meet health needs in low- and middle-income countries. He also works in various ways to help DKU make the most of AI as an educational tool, as well as assisting in the development of policies regarding their safe, effective, and ethical use.    TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created by Castmagic) Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Welcome back to a new episode of SA Voices from the Field, where today we will feature Doctor. Daniel Weissglass. Doctor. Weissglass is an assistant professor of philosophy at Duke Kunshan University, which is a Sino US liberal arts institution located near Shanghai, China. His work focuses on the ethics of science, health, and technology with a special interest in the use of artificial intelligence to meet health needs in low and middle income countries. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:49]: He also works in various ways to help DKU make the most of AI as an educational tool, as well as assisting in the development of policies regarding their safe, effective, and ethical use. So today's episode is gonna be focused on the use of AI in higher education. Daniel, welcome to student affairs voices from the field. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:01:06]: Thanks so much, Jill. Glad to be here. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:08]: It's great to see you. Daniel and I have known each other for a couple years now, and we're coming to you from across massive time zone difference. I'm sitting here in the UK and Daniel's sitting over there in China. So I can see the sun setting on his end and the sun rising on mine. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:01:22]: There's maybe a metaphor, appropriate to the the topic of today's meeting about that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:26]: Oh, I'm excited to get into that. Daniel, you make your livelihood as a philosopher. And so I always like to ask our guests kind of how you got to your current seat, but we're speaking with you mainly today because of your burgeoning career in academia and artificial intelligence AI. So, yeah, tell us about how you got here. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:01:46]: Well, interestingly, I can kind of weave those 2 together. Actually, part of what brought me into philosophy was an interest in AI. Now this was back before the the big data science boom even. So what AI meant at the time was a very different concept, one that had more to do with replicating human capacities and building something human like or assisting human in those performance is and and less to do with something like the large scale statistics that we see today. And the questions I kept finding myself asking was, well, if we're gonna talk about replicating something like human intelligence, I need to know better what that is. So I went into study in the philosophy of mind, and I also double majored in psychology. And I think the interest I have had in AI throughout my career is part of what brought me to where I am at DKU. DKU, Duke of Kunshan University, where I work, is a very interdisciplinary institute. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:02:34]: It doesn't really follow traditional divisional or disciplinary divisions. We don't have departments. Right? We have these big, houses. I say for the audience, Gil, you know all of this. And when I presented my initial research presentation, it was actually about not artificial intelligence, but artificial emotion and the possibilities that might bring for things like moral control of AI. So I think this has been sort of a natural path for me. And then with the recent explosion in AI interest post large language models, the place for someone who can think critically and with some sort of baseline informative informedness about AI technologies, about the values that we have in using those technologies, has become more and more central to the mission of academic institutions worldwide. And I was very fortunate to find a community here that supports me pursuing that path. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:26]: You mentioned something that I've not heard in these conversations a lot, which is not artificial intelligence, but artificial emotion or the the mimicization of human emotion in AI. And typically, we're talking about AI ultimately being barely stupid because it's only as good as what we input into it. Talk to us a little bit more about that emotion component. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:03:47]: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. So there's a small literature on what's called synthetic emotion usually. And there are a couple of ways of understanding what that means. One is being able to respond to emotional cues of users appropriately. You can almost see this in chat gpt when it says, oh, I'm sorry. I made a mistake. Right? And that's important for a lot of reasons. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:04:07]: One being that people are more likely to maintain systems that apologize when they fail. This was an interesting set of studies on that. But what I was more interested in is systems that try to replicate the you might call input output mapping, the sort of function in the mathematical sense that human emotions have. So ideally, a system that is capable in this way would be able to, for instance, look at an image and identify the emotion that that image would produce in most viewers. So if it showed an image of a person in suffering, right, it would it would identify that this would produce sorrow or sympathy. And this is really important, this kind of input output mapping, to producing morally correct responses in some cases. Emotions play a huge role in how we make moral choices and how we decide to respond to morally loaded events. And so there's a hope that we can make artificial moral agents, is the term that gets thrown around in the in the literature, that would be able to adequately replicate these components of moral reasoning, which I think must include something like emotion, so that they can regulate themselves more effectively. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:05:10]: Now, presumably, we wouldn't want to take people out of the loop entirely. But if you don't ask them to regulate themselves based upon these basic presuppositions that we have captured in our emotional systems, you get behavior that can be very dangerous and and very much outside of what we call alignment. You get systems that are willing to lie, hate, steal, harass people, all of these things. And so the hope was and and what I was working on at the time, and it still is sort of on a back burner, is that synthetic emotion might be able to improve this, provide some sort of safety by allowing them to analyze allowing AI tools to analyze morally loaded instances in a way that's more similar to the way that humans do. There are a lot of challenges to that. But in context of something like an academic environment, this might involve something that's emotionally sensitive and responsive to student users, for instance, right? So imagine as we've been kicking around here the idea of an advisor bot. So you've got a first run chatbot that interacts with students. You don't just want the chatbot to be able to recognize the question and its meaning in a literal sense. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:06:11]: You might also want it to note certain emotional patterns that could emerge in the way students are responding. Right? You might want it to note that, the questions this person is asking and the way they're asking them as the semester goes on really seem to indicate that this the student's not doing so well. Right? And maybe it could raise a flag there. Now this would be a, you know, a much more complex system most likely than what we're dealing with in the near future, but that was the idea. And I think synthetic emotion is an under explored space in education in the same way that emotion in general, in pedagogical context and advising context is underplayed. Right? We focus so much on cognitive expertise. We sometimes forget that this is broadly speaking a care profession, and we underplay the importance of that sort of emotional intelligence and emotional engagement, I think. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:00]: For student affairs professionals, that's where we spend most of our time is working with students in that high EQ space, in that high empathy space. And the thought of having an AI bot to help us support that work is a really fascinating one. On my end, I'm teaching currently the technology module for masters in student affairs through NASPA and LUMSU University. And I just had my first lecture about a week and a half ago, and it was all about introducing student affairs professionals to user and AI tools. We're not talking about the technological side of machine learning and how we're feeding large language models and things like that. But really, what can these things do for us to help support our work? Because at the end of the day, when we're working with students, it's a human centered profession. And I don't believe any sort of technological replacement that can get us to a place where we don't need human interaction is the core of what we do in a university setting. I think that there's cognitive development that can happen through these bots or even quick answers. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:55]: But when you're having a really hard day, talking to a bot is probably not going to help you find a space of resilience or thriving. But we also have, I think, jumped ahead quite a lot. We're already speaking from a at least a novice perspective on AI. So I want us to back up a little bit to, just give some primer and basics for someone maybe who has heard of AI but has never tried using a large language model. Maybe they're using predictive AI and they don't know it. Maybe they're a little fearful of the tools that are out there because they don't know much about them. So let's start with the super basic, which is can you describe for us the difference between predictive versus generative AI? Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:08:34]: So, I mean, the to some extent, the answer is in the name. So a predictive AI is focused on predicting. This might be making a sort of, like, quantitative prediction, right, where it says, you know, given recent trends in the financial market, this is what we expect these things to go. Right? You might see these even with very, very simple forms, like expected grades could arguably be something of this kind. They'd be very simple. So predictive AIs attempt to predict. They might also try to protect things like categories. You might look at patterns of enrollment or something and say, well, this student is likely to be a major in philosophy. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:09:05]: This student is likely to be a data science major. And that could help you maybe plan staffing right down the road. They could also maybe identify students who we've noticed if you had the adequate data collection system. We've noticed this student has just missed 3 classes in a row across 2 different courses. Let's raise a flag. Something might be worth noting here. This is now a high risk student, maybe the classification would be. Generative AI works in a very different way. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:09:28]: What it does is is generate something. It produces, and there's some debate about how novel the outputs of these things are, but a novel output based upon usually a description of the desired output. So you go in and you say draw me a picture of a bird, and it draws you a picture of a bird. You go in and you say, and this is the kind of thing that tends to worry academics, Write me a 10 page paper about the role of Rene Descartes' mind body dualism in creating a a sort of, individualistic conception of the self which results in all these problematic ways of viewing one's connection to society. I'm getting down a path here. Sorry. I'll back up a little bit. But you, you know, you ask it your your essay prompts, it will write an essay. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:10:09]: Not always a good essay, but they're getting better. And so what generative AI does that predictive AI don't doesn't do is produce novel outputs, a novel at least in the sense that they're not just copy and pasting from somewhere. What raises concerns for academics, things like turn it in won't work, at least not as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:25]: That generative AI space, I think, is that scariest space for academia, particularly in the academic integrity front as you just mentioned. But I think it also requires that we reevaluate how we're assessing student learning. We've been relying on the essay for 100 of years in terms of the way that we measure if a student's critical thinking skills have evolved in the course that the way that we want them to. But if I put this prompt into AI about my image of self through the lens of Descartes, I could also ask it to do a niamic pentameter, and it's gonna spit out something, but it may also invent sources. It may also just make stuff up that is not relevant. It could insert a number of different factors that, maybe the end user doesn't know that it's inserting. But it's also going to take what I input into that model and use it to continually train. So none of my data is private when I go into these models because it is collecting it and then using that to continue to synthesize on its own. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:25]: But I I think what the most interesting piece is to me is that ultimately what we're looking at is math. We're looking at, how these machine learning components are taking language, which is ultimately just a variable for it, and then creating stories, full stories. So when you think about where we are right now in this moment in higher education, how do you believe that professors should be looking at these language tools, large language model tools in their work, in their assessment of student learning? Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:11:53]: Excellent question. I think this is the one that most faculty are really struggling with. And I think there are a couple of things to say. One is these tools are widely available and often without charge, which allows for effectively every student to be doing what what our wealthy students, who were maybe or or less scrupulous wealthy students anyway, might have been doing in the past, which is hire someone to write an essay for them. Everybody gets to do that. Now that was always a problem. It always existed. But there was enough of a barrier that we kind of just let it slide, I think. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:12:24]: At least many of us did. Now we must respond. And the way we respond is gonna depend upon what your priorities are. Right? If you want to know that somebody knows something off the top of their head, you should be asking it in a classroom in front of you, maybe with a proctored test in some cases, if you're especially dealing with the increasing number of students who are dealing with with things like remote learning in some way. So there's this sort of, you know, if you wanna stick to the old old style and there are places where that's the right thing to do, you need to be doing it in person. But we also need to be thinking more broadly about what the world we're preparing our students to engage in is going to be like. These will be tools that they will have and be interacting with for the rest of their life. All of us will be whether we like it or not. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:13:05]: And so we need to think about the ways that within our discipline, we can utilize these tools both to leverage learning about our disciplinary skill sets and our disciplinary topics, and also that we can train students to use the tools. Right? So there's using the tool to teach, for instance, philosophy, and then there's also teaching students how to use the tool. We're kind of in the early days of Google search again, where every class suddenly had to have a discussion about how to use Boolean search operators and that kind of thing. And while sometimes some of the stuff you're seeing out there isn't really legitimate, you should know that people make stuff up and lie online, and here's how we identify good sources. And now we have to do that with generative AI systems. Right? You should know they hallucinate is the term that gets thrown around. Right? They they make up facts. You need to learn how to prompt them in ways that help you avoid that. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:13:55]: You need to learn which systems can be trusted for which kinds of things and generally best practices. I'm most excited about using them as tools to teach skills that are often labor intensive. So, again, as a philosopher and particularly in teaching ethics courses. Right? So there's a lot of skills that are important there about analyzing the ethical dimensions of a given case, about working through problems and reasoning effectively, and monitoring students while they do that is a wonderful thing to do and is possible in sort of a live action action way. But providing a chat GPT, a custom GPT that's been written to prompt my students to go through a certain set of steps, right, can provide them with maybe not quite the same quality, but a much more available version of this sort of prompt. Now I would never suggest that you could replace your your assessment that way or replace your your direct education that way. Right? There's still a place for for sitting in the room with me and working through it because I might notice problems that KKPT doesn't. But especially over time and with practice, as we learn how to use these tools ourselves, we can build these really cool interactive systems, sometimes called interactive tutor systems in the older literatures that help respond to our students where they are, guide them through complicated processes, and really have a lot of promise. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:13]: You said GPT a couple of times, so I just wanna clarify definition. So when we say chat GPT, that GPT stands for generative pretrained transformer. I think a lot of people don't know that it's an acronym or just haven't gone to the depths of understanding what that means. And so the generative pretrained transformer means that it's taking the information that is already been fed that pretraining component and then transforming forming it into the output that we see as human beings. But we have different versions of chat gpt that have evolved over time. 3.5 was the one that a lot of people were using for a very long time. Now for Omni is out, which is a paid service. And so for Omni is better for sure in terms of the input it's been given and the output that it will give you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:55]: And when we look at what students are doing, it's it's not unaffordable to to become a paid member of, for Omni. And so you can use that to your advantage. The models aren't necessarily at a place right now where they can continuously self learn in the same way that we might expect them to, like a human brain can. But the information it's getting fed is is much more interesting these days. I was teaching the use of GPT 3.5 in my course the other day. And one of the things that I love about the course that I'm currently teaching is that students come from a multitude of countries. I think we had at least 7 countries represented in that space. And so we also learned a lot about bias, in the prompts that we were using and who trains the models, whose values are inputted into the models, what assumptions are made. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:41]: One of the examples we looked at is how to respond to a highly critical email. And so what we had folks do is input the email into chat gpt, and then on the other side, ask it to craft a polite and salient response that covers these three points. We made sure to de identify any names. If your institution has a confidentiality clause of some kind, if you're trying to observe FERPA, you need to be really careful that you're not putting student identifiable information into these models because that data can be used. But what we got spit out was an extremely Americanized version of what that email can look like. And so it, again, raises the question, who is it for and whose biases are integrated into the system? And so the student that was representing work in Ireland said, I can't use this because it's too American and it doesn't meet my cultural needs. So we asked ChatCPT to transform that response to make it more culturally Irish, which I was real scared of that prompt. I'm not gonna lie. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:38]: I thought we were gonna border into some very racist territory, and we were breathing a bit of a sigh of relief when it transformed it into something that the student identified as a little more usable. We tried the same thing in Lithuanian, and it did not give us what we needed because we had a student representing Lithuania. So the limitations of these models is very real, and that happens for for student learning as well. And I I think this is also true for things like Copilot. So the I think the 2 most ubiquitous tools right now are Chat GPT and Copilot for the everyday user. The other one that I've recently really taken to is Gamma. Have you played around with Gamma much? Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:18:14]: No. I don't think I have. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:15]: Gamma is great. I actually designed my lecture using Gamma. It is a tool that you can take a Word document of, like, just an outline and upload it, and it will generate a PowerPoint for you based on what you've put into the Word document. If you want it to, it will also generate a ton of detail. Inocuous or not, it will also generate images that sometimes are really funky, but we we can get into images in a second. But what it did, I asked it to make a sandwich as an example of of how to do this. So I put in 10 lines of what I think are the basic instructions on how to make a sandwich. And then you can choose if you want it to give you basic output, kind of middle output, or thorough output, and it will just go to town about sauces and vegetables and slicing and toasting bread and types of cheese and things like that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:01]: So I think the sandwich example is an easy one because it can show you what it will take, which is make a sandwich, take some bread, add some veggies, add some protein, add some cheese, eat your sandwich, which is basically what I gave it. They turned it into a 10 slide PowerPoint, elaborate, elaborate, elaborate PowerPoint. So check out Gamma if you get a chance. What other tools are you using that people should know about? Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:19:20]: So like you said, the biggest sort of general purpose are CAT KPTN being Copilot right now. And they have got a different focus. Copilot's really working to integrate to the Office 365 suite in some interesting ways that I think have a lot of promise for administration, especially at universities. As we've all been on email chains with 45 professors and really, really wish that we could have an instantaneous summary of what's been happening, Copilot can do that. It can summarize everything that that that's been going on. It can even summarize the text of ongoing meetings less well, but from recordings identify what was said and give you the bullet points. So I think the administrative side will see a lot of Copilot in these applications in particular. Another prominent sort of general model is gonna be Anthropic's Claude model, which is like OpenAI's CATGPT in effect. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:20:06]: And at various times, they pulled ahead of one another and which one produces, in some sense, the best quality output. So these are sort of the major commercial general use systems. There are specialized systems. So I use one called site dotaiscite.ai. Maybe I should ask for, like, a a free month. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:26]: We are not sponsored by site.ai. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:20:27]: No. We are not. Right? But what it does is solve the problem that ChatTPD has or at least tries to solve the problem of making stuff up. So it is designed to look around a large corpora of published academic work and identify articles that relate to various topics. It can even write you a sort of general overview of our topic that has these articles. And for researchers like myself, when I when I do research, it can be very helpful in a lot of ways. One is I need to find a quick literature review, essentially. Give me 10 articles that talk about this topic in contrasting ways, and it will generate a pretty decent list. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:21:04]: The other and the one that is very much time saving as I'm sure you've encountered this too is, you know, when you're writing a a long paper, you've read 45, 50, a 100 articles on some topic, And you remember that one of them said something like this. And your options are pretty much to control f and go through every document looking for keywords. But if you get the keyword wrong, you're just gonna have to keep doing this over and over again. So you can give Cite a list of articles and ask it to make inferences based just on those articles. And you can say things like, where which of these articles is likely to have said something like this? And it can give you some direction there. So it's been a very interesting tool, and I think one that a lot of people in the academic areas will will look at. Another thing to keep in mind is that there are also open source versions of these tools. So things like Hugging Face is is a prominent I know it's a weird name. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:21:57]: A prominent provider of these sorts of sources which allow people to make custom tools and tools that might protect data in ways that are really important. So there are 2 ways to go. You keep you you brought up the data security point which is really important. There are 2 ways for an institution to go here. 1 is to work with a provider to develop a data security agreement and to ensure that your institutional data will not be used for training a model. We can do that, and and institutions have done that. And I believe Duke has done this with Copilot, can do this with CAT KPT, and sometimes you'll set up a sort of private instance of one of these models where you put it on a server that is sort of isolated from the rest of the system. So this is one way that institutions can handle the privacy issue. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:22:36]: Another though is to build one in house. Now these models tend to be not as well fine tuned. They tend to be based on sort of the base model. So when we talk about chat to GPT, right, the GPT refers to a foundation model, which is a general purse purpose model, which can be used in various ways by various tools to create whatever output you want. ChatGPT is a specialized tool made by a specific company. Right? It's a packaging of that for sort of client use. There's other ones like, Lambda is another prominent foundation model. And so you can use one of those, take it yourself to, be adequate to your purposes, but then you're going to be dealing with the need to maintain that system more in house. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:23:15]: You won't be automatically keeping up with improvements that are becoming standard elsewhere in the world like you would with a commercially mainstream model. And the process of fine tuning and improving performance can be really expertise and time intensive. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:29]: You've mentioned prompting the models a couple of times. I think this is an important point for us to get to. The philosophy I've come to adopt after watching, you know, hundreds of YouTube videos on how to prompt these systems well is garbage in, garbage out. That is, I think, the best way that we can encapsulate how how to prompt one of these systems. Meaning that the more specific that you can get with your prompt, the more likely you are to get a usable reply. And if you are putting in nonsense or garbage, you're going to get nonsense or garbage back on the other side. So for example, if I want to write a paper, and don't do this for your academic integrity reasons, but if I wanted to write a paper on the future of student affairs and I put in to the GPT program, write me a paper on the future of student affairs, it's gonna go every which way. But if I put in write me a paper on the future of student affairs that covers the integration of artificial intelligence and the replacement of human jobs with AI and make sure that it is in a professional style and uses at least 10 sources, I'm gonna get a much different output than if I just said that very simple thing at the front. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:24:37]: Learning how to prompt is an important part of learning how to use these tools, both for us and for our students. Right? So this is when I when I talked about the need to teach students how to use these tools. I teach research methods in some of my classes that are now based around the effective use of these tools. We need to learn how to prompt them and how to interpret their output in ways that are helpful. And there are a lot of different approaches to crafting prompts that produce a sort of certain desired behaviors. Generally, this is called prompt design, which can be contrasted with prompt engineering, which has more to do with efficiency of a performance of a system. But when you design a prompt, there's a lot of different ways to do this. I use sometimes cane of thought or instruct models, but the basic idea for both of these is to deal with a problem that most of these systems have, which is that they don't follow rules very well. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:25:26]: So, again, let's bring back the case of adviser GPT. Right? If I ask it, how do I major in philosophy without taking logic? It might say, oh, go. Yeah. Here's how you would do it. You would have to take all these other courses and talk to your adviser and get these substitutions, but what it ought to say is you can't. The systems are designed to be helpful. They will find you an answer even if it's wrong unless you tell it not to. And so with careful sort of design methodologies, you can say, okay. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:25:53]: Well, you don't you know, first, you review the bulletin and look for an answer to the question, then you craft an answer to the question, then you make sure that the answer you are about to give me is correct. If you don't if if you cannot find a citation in the bulletin, do not give the answer and instruct me instead that this is you don't know. Right? This is a really important thing, actually, teaching them how to tell you they don't know. And so prompt design really radically changes things. It's also one of the things that makes it, in some sense, more dangerous for academic integrity than people realize. It's very common for people to sit down with this tool and take the vanilla out of the box ChatPpt and say, well, I asked it my questions. It gave terribly bland answers. That's fine. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:26:33]: I would either be able to tell this or it wouldn't do well in my class anyway. But a student who knows what they're doing could upload your syllabus, the rubric for the assignment, any samples you've given, could upload work they have written in the past and say, match this style so that it's gonna sound like them writing for you. And and that's a a thing we need to understand. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:53]: I'm sorry. I I think this is a this is the critical juncture right now of where especially student affairs is with academic integrity and AI because a lot of universities put the AI and I use AI doubly here because we say academic integrity is AI as well as artificial intelligence. But the responsibility for academic integrity falls into student affairs spaces at a large number of universities. So what is your best pro tip on how to identify whether an essay was generated by a large language model in part or in whole? Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:27:25]: So I I'll return to the analogy earlier that having your paper written for you by CAT GPT is kind of like hiring someone to write it for you. You will not, in most cases, be able to use automated tools to identify effectively whether or not a paper has been written by a large language model or Any Script generative AI. In fact, OpenAI pulled their tool down. Now there's some word that they might have a tool that does this, but the way their tool was intended to work was specifically with reference to work it produced. It would encode essentially a watermark in the way it codes words that would be undetectable to most readers, but they could detect in the statistical properties of the way the words are related. But, of course, that wouldn't work if someone used Claude. Right? If they used a different system, you no longer have that watermark system. So my big my first message is do not rely on automated detection of AI content. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:28:17]: It will not work effectively based on my understanding, and you're really risking unfairly penalizing students in ways that are not productive. The second is talk to them the same way that you would if you thought someone they had paid someone to write this paper. Say, you know, I find that your your use of this, William's 1998 paper really interesting. How did you come across that paper? They should have an answer, right, especially if this is reasonably close for the period when they wrote it. Right? Or, you know, you use this this term a lot. Can you explain to me what you mean by this term? These kinds of questions can give you a better sense. But in a lot of ways, we are now back to a period of academic integrity that many of our younger faculty, including myself, have never existed in before, which is there is not going to be certainty any long. Right? I'm used to only penalizing students for academic integrity when I went on Turnitin and went, oh, yeah. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:29:11]: Or I, you know, pulled a phrase and went to Google and looked it up and, well, there it is. Right? That's probably done at least for the foreseeable future. So get comfortable with ambiguity, return, and think very seriously about the standards of evidence that you are using to assess academic integrity, what degree of certainty you need to feel you have to feel confident in leveling certain types of penalties, and understand that this is going to become a more intensive investigating procedure than was often the case in recent years. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:39]: This is such a tricky space because I feel like it's a losing battle for those of us who work in the academic integrity space of whack a mole. Right? Is this one generated? Is this not generated? And the tools are only gonna get better. So, again, the question is really what are we trying to assess from our students and why are we trying to assess it? And now the third question is how are we going to assess it in a way that ensures that they're they're learning? And so we we do have, generative tools that can do voice. We have generative tools that can do writing. We have generative tools that can do images, and these are all getting more sophisticated. So, you know, in 5 years' time, there may not be a discernible difference, and we will see what happens. Right now, these programs can't do hands. It's the oddest thing. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:21]: If you ask a program to generate you an image of a human hand, they they somehow can't figure that one out. And the other one I saw interestingly the other day was that no large language model can correctly tell you the number of r's in the word strawberry because of the way that the algorithm is broken down. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:30:38]: So so there are some definite limitations. They're also bad at teeth. Anything that requires them to see inside of what they're doing, they are bad at. So they can't count, for instance. Right? So this is the number of r's in strawberry. They'll often struggle because they see that as a single unit and they can't crack it open to look at what's inside of it. So they're just very confused. If you ask them word counts, they can even struggle with that sometimes. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:30:58]: I think one thing you brought up is really important here is academic integrity is associated with the kinds of assessments we're using. And in fact, its function to some large degree is to maintain the authenticity of those assessments. And a lot of what's going to have to be communicated here is that we need to rethink assessment like we said earlier. And this is going to push back in some sense on faculty. Faculty need to be working with their academic integrity units to understand what can still be meaningfully assessed, what can still be meaningfully maintained in the classroom. If you really need to know that a student knows the date of some event or can analyze some text off the top of their head. Again, you should be doing that in class where such concerns are simply gone. Right? The blue book is gonna make a fierce comeback, I predict. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:31:44]: So, otherwise, we need to just be more critical about the kinds of assignments we use. A lot of us are operating on tradition. Same things with how we understand academic integrity is largely influenced by a long academic tradition that operated under a form of intellectual productivity that may no longer be a form that we will be operating under. And so we need to adapt to those changes even in concepts as basic as what does it mean to have academic integrity and what am I doing in this ethics class. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:11]: Which is an ethical question. Indeed. Very meta. Well, Daniel, this season's theme is the past, present, and future of student affairs. And knowing you're on the faculty side of things, you might have an interesting perspective for us. So I'm gonna ask you our 3 questions on our theme for the season. So focus on the past, What's one component of the history of the student affairs profession or tradition that you think we should continue to carry forward or to let go of? Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:32:33]: I think looking at the things I wanna carry forward is again, I think I said this a bit earlier, but I I think of teaching and student affairs and the university as a whole more and more of as a care profession and as a mentoring process. This is work intensive. It can be exhausting and frustrating, but I think it's the important thing. And this is something we see, I think, taken more seriously in some sense in prior iterations of what the university meant. Now in some sense, that's because they didn't have the large class sizes that we're dealing with. They didn't have huge universities that sprawled in this way and had as their mission to bring education to a large number of people. Right? Education was an elite thing. But if we can capture that, that sort of deep powerful connection, that deep mentoring, then we still have a value add. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:33:24]: Right? Then we're still contributing somehow to their development as a person. And in a sense, answering the question that the university has been facing since the dawn of the printing press, which is if I can just go read this there, why do I need to talk to you? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:36]: Conan Gutenberg. Okay. Alright. So our question on the present. What is happening in the field of student affairs or higher ed right now that's going well for student affairs in general? Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:33:45]: I think we're becoming much more aware of campus cultures and the way that they need to be maintained effortfully. There are debates and reasonable ones to be had about what exact boundaries we want to set on our cultures, but I think for much of our history, we haven't really been engaging with that question as substantively and as effectively as we have recently. To connect back to the AI concern, one thing that we need to think about very seriously is that these tools not only enable academic integrity violations, but student conduct violations of the kinds that we may never have seen. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:17]: Automated harassment is a very real possibility now. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:34:17]: We've already seen this in some it in the broader world. We've seen things like revenge porn being fabricated with AI tools. We've seen falsified videos and audio using other people's voices. These are questions that we are gonna have to start figuring out both how to protect our students from administratively, right? What standards of safety and security we put in play and also how we react to these sorts of things. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:47]: And moving towards the future, in an ideal world, what does the field of student affairs need to do to thrive going forward? Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:34:54]: Oh, that's a big question. I suppose, I mean, the short and easy answer is to continue to focus on students. I do think there's a version of focusing too much on students that can be problematic for universities where we become too customer service oriented. We need to avoid that. I think the analogy that I find more effective is the gym. Right? Which is, look, we're here to help you learn, help you grow, but you have to come and still have to do the work. Right? We're not gonna lift the weights for you. And so I think student affairs institutionally and, you know, faculty as well, we need to think a lot about how to promote and prepare the student for the world world that is coming. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:35:26]: And that is always changing. Right? And in a sense changing maybe faster these days than it was in history. And so maybe it made hitting a sense of flexibility and continual check-in and continual responsiveness is an aspect of this. So like a continual reflective response to students needs and the likely future realities that they will face. That might be my answer, I think. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:47]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:53]: Welcome back to the NASPA World! I'm really excited to be able to share some of that with you today. Every October, NASPA celebrates the profession of student affairs. It's a month long celebration of careers in student affairs. In this month long celebration, the NASPA community comes together to share knowledge, network, and uplift the student affairs profession. There's a number of great activities that are happening throughout the month that you can take advantage of, that you can get involved in and encourage you to go into the NASPA online learning community to check out all of the resources that have been brought together in one place for careers and student affairs month. And think about ways in which you can talk about our career with people on your campus, with undergraduate students, graduate students, and more. There's a couple of opportunities for you to be able to submit proposals for a few of the upcoming symposiums and institutes that are happening within our community. The 2025 NASPA International Symposium proposal submission deadline is October 15th. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:56]: The International Symposium serves as a dynamic platform for student affairs professionals globally to share insights, engage in meaningful dialogue, and network, as well as practitioners interested in further developing their global competency skills. The international symposium is happening on March 15th 16th, and program submission deadlines are available on the NASPA website. And you can do a proposal for a flash lightning talk, a general intersession, poster session, or scholarly paper. Highly encourage you to submit a proposal today. Also, the 2025 NASA Community College Institute Institute proposals are due on October 18th. The 2025 Institute will focus on celebrating the achievements of student affairs professionals, equipping new generations for success in transforming the field through collaboration and mentorship. As mentioned, the deadline for proposals is October 18th, and I hope that you will submit a program and help shape the future of our profession. The NASPA public policy division award applications are due October 12th. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:02]: The NASPA public policy professional award honors exceptional leadership and commitment in student affairs through public policy. Nominate a deserving colleague with a letter of nomination to support letters and their resume. Don't miss this chance to shine or to shine a spotlight on an exemplary colleague. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself, where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:39:14]: I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:44]: Chris, thank you so much for another great addition of NASPA World. It's always great to know what's going on in and around NASPA. And, Daniel, we have reached our lightning round where I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. Are you ready to go? Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:39:58]: We'll find out. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:59]: Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:40:04]: Time For Tea. I don't know. It's a weird song I really like. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:07]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:40:11]: A father, husband, and a good man. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:12]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:40:15]: Walter Sinnott Armstrong at Duke. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:17]: Number 4, your essential higher education read. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:40:20]: Why don't students like school? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:21]: Number 5, the best TV show you've binged lately. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:40:24]: The Sopranos. A little out of date, going back to the classics there. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:27]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:40:31]: Recently, it's going to be History of Philosophy Without Any Gaps, a fantastic podcast for anyone interested in the history of philosophy without any gaps. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:38]: Number 7, finally, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:40:42]: I oppose to everyone here at DKU who's been so responsive and helpful as we move forward towards an AI enabled future. We really had a lot of people who've been supporting these kinds of efforts. Noah Pichis and and Ben van Overmeijer, has been engaged in a lot of I I would have I would have to think, Ying Chong. Really, just everybody here has been very on board, I feel like, with this effort. And, you know, that's been very influential in getting this going. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:05]: Well, Daniel, it's been a pleasure to speak with you on this topic. I think this is a conversation we're gonna continue to have in higher education for many, many years to come. If anyone would like to connect with you on your expertise on AI or philosophy, how can they find you? Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:41:17]: So the easiest way is to email me at [email protected]@dukecoonshaun.edu.cn. You can also find me on my website, danielweissglass. That's danielweiss blast.com. It's just my name, which I suppose will be in the show note. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:37]: Those show notes are partially generated by AI. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:41:40]: Fantastic. And I really am happy to talk about any of this stuff, and I expect to have even more interesting things to say in the near future. There's some interesting stuff happening here, and I think we'll we'll soon be in a position to continue the conversation. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:52]: Well, Daniel, again, a pleasure to have you on the show to talk with you about this area of subject matter expertise, and thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Dr. Daniel Weissglass [00:42:00]: Thank you, Jill. It was a lot of fun. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:06]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful full that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:44]: That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.  

In the latest episode of SA Voices From The Field Dr. Jill Creighton has an engaging conversation with Lindsay Mason, a seasoned mid-level manager in student affairs at Colorado State University. The discussion revolves around the evolving landscape of student affairs, emphasizing the growing role of data, the need for AI and data science training, and the critical integration of social work theories. Let’s delve into the key takeaways from this insightful episode. The Data-Driven Evolution in Student Affairs Mason highlights the increasing reliance on data in decision-making processes within student affairs. With technological advancements and the influx of data, professionals in this field can make more informed decisions that better support student needs. Dr. Creighton also underscores the importance of AI and data science training to enhance assessment practices. Given the complexities of student demographics and the diversity of their needs, the ability to analyze and interpret data becomes crucial. This shift not only aids in identifying issues but also in implementing effective, evidence-based solutions. As student affairs continue to evolve, professionals must keep pace with these advancements to provide holistic support. Integrating Social Work Theories Mason advocates for embedding social work theories into student affairs programs. By doing so, institutions can offer more comprehensive support structures that cater to the multifaceted challenges students face. Social work theories emphasize empathy, community building, and systemic change—elements that are essential in fostering an inclusive campus environment. This integration helps student affairs professionals to address issues such as mental health, food security, and housing instability more effectively. By viewing students through a social work lens, professionals can develop more tailored and impactful interventions. The Critical Role of Town-Gown Relationships The episode delves into the significance of town-gown relationships, a core component of Mason's role at Colorado State University. Town-gown work involves fostering collaboration between the university and the surrounding community, which is vital for professional development and creating a supportive environment for students. Mason discusses her unique position split between the university and the city, focusing on conflict resolution and building partnerships with local stakeholders. This role is pivotal in mediating between long-term residents and student populations, ensuring harmony and cooperation within the community. Addressing Housing and Food Security The rising costs of housing and food insecurity are significant barriers to student enrollment and retention. Mason emphasizes the importance of supporting students facing these challenges, highlighting initiatives like the student resolution center and the fall clean-up program. Dr. Creighton agrees, noting the difficulty in identifying and supporting students with temporary housing issues. Efforts to combat these issues are multifaceted, involving collaboration with local police services, property managers, and community liaisons. These partnerships are integral to creating resources that address the basic needs of students, thereby fostering a stable environment conducive to academic success. Challenging Professionalism Norms Mason and Dr. Creighton discuss the need to challenge traditional definitions of professionalism within student affairs. Ensuring that the profession is inclusive of all identities is paramount for social justice. Dr. Creighton provides a personal example, leading with visible facial piercings and tattoos, symbolizing acceptance and inclusivity. Mason notes that embracing diverse expressions of professionalism empowers students and staff alike, encouraging authenticity and a sense of belonging. As the field evolves, redefining professionalism to be more inclusive will be crucial for supporting a diverse student body. Upcoming Opportunities for Professional Growth Dr. Lewis shares exciting opportunities for professional development, such as the upcoming annual NASPA conference and the 2025 NASPA Institute for New AVPs. These platforms are essential for networking, skill enhancement, and staying abreast of industry trends. He encourages members to update their profiles to take advantage of these engagement opportunities, indicating the importance of continual learning and growth in the dynamic field of student affairs. Mentorship and Influence Throughout the episode, Mason acknowledges the profound impact of mentorship in her career. She mentions influential mentors like Jeannie Ortega, Emily Seams, and Nancy Rhodes, and her admiration for Cal Newport’s work on deep, meaningful work. These influences have shaped her approach to student affairs, emphasizing the value of dedicated, thoughtful engagement with work and continuous personal development. A Path Forward As student affairs continue to adapt and grow, the insights shared by Lindsay Mason highlight the importance of embracing data-driven decision-making, integrating social work theories, and focusing on inclusivity and social justice. The episode underscores the dynamic nature of the field and the need for ongoing professional development to better serve diverse student populations. Through collaborative efforts, innovative approaches, and a commitment to fostering inclusive environments, student affairs professionals can navigate the challenges and opportunities of the evolving higher education landscape. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. Be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on essay voices from the field, we welcome Lindsay Mason. Lindsay is a first generation college student from a blue collar working class family. She currently serves as the director of off campus life at Colorado State University as one of the NASPA off campus and commuter student services knowledge community co chairs, and she teaches and advises graduate students studying student affairs. Lindsay's career has focused on town gown work for over a decade. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:50]: She earned her bachelor's degree in sociology from California State University, San Marcos, a master's degree in student affairs and higher education from Colorado State University, and a PhD in higher education and student affairs leadership from the University of Northern Colorado. Lindsay, welcome to SA Voices. Lindsay Mason [00:01:06]: Thanks for having me, Jill. I'm excited to be here. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:08]: In our pre show chatter, I was glad to get to know that we've spent time in similar parts of the country along the front range in Colorado. I know that you're having a much more beautiful summer than I am here over in England. Lindsay Mason [00:01:20]: It has been lovely this summer. Yeah. For sure. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:23]: Well, Lindsay, we're gonna be speaking to you today all about your experiences at the mid level in student affairs in the present day about what's going on with the features of your work, particularly around town gown and serving commuter based students. But before we get into all of that, we really like to start by getting to know you by asking how you got to your current seat. Lindsay Mason [00:01:43]: So I did my undergrad at Cal State San Marcos. And I remember when I was at my orientation, there was this opportunity that was shared where incoming 1st year students could be matched up with a senior in our student government for, like, a mentorship opportunity. And I remember getting the sheet to fill out to say, yes, I wanna do this. And I remember one of the questions was, what do you want your mentor to know? And I think what they were trying to get at was, oh, are you wanting someone that has a certain major that's similar to yours? Or maybe you're really interested in fraternity and sorority life, so you're looking for someone that's in a fraternity or sorority. I literally wrote, they need to know everything I need to know because I'm 1st gen. I didn't know what I was doing. And so anyways, I got hooked up with this senior and he recommended that I joined the orientation team. And so that's what got me into student affairs at first was his recommendation. Lindsay Mason [00:02:35]: And I had excellent supervisors and mentors when I worked in orientation. And Dilsey Perez, one of my supervisors, she said, Lindsay, you should go into student affairs, and you should go to Colorado State's program. I heard it's off the hook. And I was like, okay. And so that's how I ended up at Colorado State coming out of Southern California. Once I was finishing my degree, my husband was also studying at Colorado State. He was finishing his degree and he needed a couple more years and we thought, okay, we'll do 2 more years at CSU and then we're going to go back to California to be with family. Coincidentally, at the time, my department, off campus life, was hiring a temporary program coordinator for just 2 years. Lindsay Mason [00:03:17]: And so it felt like the perfect fit. They need someone for 2 years. I only intend to be here for 2 years. And I was a commuter student all my undergraduate years, and so I thought, yeah, I could do this. So I ended up in my department just I was in the right place at the right time. But here I am, 11 years later, as the director. So, obviously, I stuck around, and I was the program coordinator for 5 years, got promoted to assistant director, and then interviewed and went got the director role. And I also ended up pulling my whole family out to Colorado with me. Lindsay Mason [00:03:46]: So they ended up following me versus me going back. So I really kind of built my roots here and it all ended up kind of working out. And I think because I've been in my department for 11 years, I do find my work very fulfilling, and I'm learning something new every day. But I think being in the same department for a long time has also pushed me to seek challenges elsewhere to make sure that I continue to grow and develop. So I was interested in getting involved with NASPA in some capacity. I've been attending the annual conference every year and had presented multiple times, but I was interested in more. And my KC was founded back in 2019, I think. And so it's a pretty young KC and so I had been working with commuter students for several years. Lindsay Mason [00:04:28]: I found out there was a KC that was being founded. And so I said, this feels like the right place for me to give some time and energy. And so I initially started as the research and assessment co chair for the KC, and then now eventually as the chair. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:42]: What are you all focused on right now in terms of practice sharing and kind of themes or up and coming future forward items for working with commuter students? Lindsay Mason [00:04:51]: So a few things that we're working on. 1, we have a lot of questions coming in where members are asking what type of physical spaces other universities are providing for their commuter students. So we have a small task force that is focused on gathering information about commuter lounges. We have we're interested in launching a commuter appreciation week in partnership with other national organizations that also support commuter students. We also have a practical toolkit that we are nearly done developing that is helping people come across a lot in the KC is why do some people say commuter and why do some people come across a lot in the KC is why do some people say commuter and why do some people say off campus? So we did this study to find out why are some universities choosing one word over the other to define their students that live in the community. And it was so varied. We initially thought, oh, we maybe can try to propose a shared definition of what a commuter student is and what an off campus student is, but that quickly proved impossible. So rather, what we've developed is a set of questions that university staff can go through on their own to help them define what are our commuter students, who are our off campus students, and particularly thinking about the common intersecting identity with commuter or off campus students. So being a caregiver, having a job, how far are they commuting, if they're living with family, those types of things. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:25]: I would imagine that was a really tricky space to get to because oftentimes, even at our traditional 4 year institutions, by the time students hit 3rd 4th year, they're living off campus, but maybe wouldn't consider themselves in that off campus or commuter student space. Whereas if they're a student that's from that community, maybe they would. I totally see where that rubber meeting road became difficult for you all. So beyond the definitions then, let's talk a little bit about that support mechanism piece that you started to talk about. You mentioned lounges, you mentioned appreciation weeks. What else is going on in the off campus and commuter student land that student affairs professionals should know about, especially for those who don't focus specifically on this population? Lindsay Mason [00:07:07]: I think as a nation, across many communities, we are seeing a housing crisis. And I think as housing costs only continue to rise, we are already seeing it, but we will only continue to see it to be a bigger retention issue. There are already many students that are choosing where they go to college based on what the cost of living is there. And I think about how in my type of work, I'm working within systems, specifically off campus housing markets, where I am both reliant on that market existing, but the way that I accomplish my work and the way that maybe property managers accomplish their work sometimes aligns and sometimes does not. And it is hard to be reliant on an industry that I do not always align with. So I do a lot of basic needs work at my university, specifically around housing. I also do transportation work because I happen to supervise the university safe ride program, which is not common for people that do my type of work. That's a unique setup. Lindsay Mason [00:08:09]: I support folks on campus who do food security work, and sometimes I'll describe it as we as a country have a surplus of food. We just don't do a good job in making sure that it doesn't go wasted. We do not have a surplus of housing, and so we are trying to work within this basic needs that does not have a surplus that is easily fixed. On top of housing being, it's an expensive thing to build and live in. There's a lot of legalities behind housing. So when I think about off campus and commuter students, I think about how are they managing even now to afford rent, and when will we really start to see the negative impacts of a significant portion of our students choosing not to come to a certain area of the country because of housing? Well, let me back up. Nope. Let me back up. Lindsay Mason [00:08:57]: Are we able to accurately capture how many students will choose not to come to our institutions because of housing costs? I think that's an incredibly difficult statistic to measure, but I think it is impacting who chooses to matriculate and then and our retention rates. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:17]: I absolutely agree with you on that. And we also have a crisis of housing among students who are struggling with temporary housing processes. Right? So when I was working with fundamental needs, specifically at a r one d one on the West Coast, one of the things that we learned was that most students who are unhoused or struggling with permanent housing aren't identifying themselves to the institution, probably because we've never given them a mechanism to do so. And then also are more likely not to self identify as unhoused because they're couch surfing with their friends. They might spend a couple of nights with friend a and a couple of nights with friend b and continually move. And so they have some housing security, but it's not full housing security. And those types of things are hard for institutions to measure, hard to communicate with students because we can't yet, find out who those students are. And then even more difficult to keep going down the road of, well, okay, now we've found you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:11]: How do we help you now? Because as you mentioned, rent costs are very, very high, especially in smaller markets where a lot of our traditional 4 years are and rent costs are exponentially high when we have urban campuses. So it's quite a challenge. I know that part of your work is town gown related. And in the community you're in, there's, I think, a substantially sized community around the institution, which is a nice benefit to a degree, but it's not quite a major metro. So thinking about that, how do you negotiate, as you mentioned, the values of what you need to do to keep your students' food and housing secure with the realities of a capitalist housing market? Lindsay Mason [00:10:49]: So I would say all of my work that I do is town gown in some capacity. There isn't anything I do that isn't related to how our students are experiencing our community, what they're contributing to the community, how they're being impacted by the community they live in. So sometimes at the end of the year, we all have our annual evaluations and we are asked, can you give us a list of 5 to 10 colleagues that you would want to complete a peer evaluation for you? And when I think about my peers, I think just as quickly about my city colleagues as I do about my institution's colleagues. In fact, I share a position with the city. I co supervise with my city. I have someone that's 50% in my office and 50% in the city of Fort Collins neighborhood services. So I'm working with folks in the city daily. So when I think about folk that I I'm also working with property managers daily. Lindsay Mason [00:11:41]: And in fact, my office created and hired a position called a property manager liaison because we wanted someone in our office who used to work for a apartment complex or property manager. I've never been a property manager. I don't know what it's like to live that life, but I work with them every day and I'm so reliant on their industry. I wanted to have a better insight of how they do their work. So your question, what am I considering as I'm trying to work with folks, I think about what are their values, what are their bottom lines, what are their culture, what's their department's culture in a variety of ways? So, again, I I work with neighborhood services a lot in the city, and I think about neighborhood services reporting line. Who do they report up to? And what's it like for them to speak to city council, which is different than what maybe what it's like for me as a director to speak to my vice president or president and eventually up to board of governors. Or I work with police a lot because I do a lot of safety related things off campus related to drunk driving and parties and things like that. And that police culture is very different than student affairs culture. Lindsay Mason [00:12:46]: When I think about working with property managers, they are working both with a national management company, but they also probably have a separate owner. Not always, but likely 2 different entities that they're that they have to report to. So this isn't a specific answer, but that's something I think a lot about in my work. I can't just consider how will whatever I wanna do be received at my institution. I'm thinking about a variety of partners and what it will be like for them because I can't do my work without those partners. I do nothing alone. Right? Everything is with my partners, whether they're in city offices or local properties around us. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:21]: I wanna go back to the position that you identified as being half time with the city and half time with the university. That is a really unique model that I don't think we see a lot in higher education, and it sounds like a fantastic way to solve some of the challenges of the 2, big major entities collaborating. Can you talk to us about how that came to life for your institution and what that person's function is and some of the pros and cons of it? And I guess I could be a better descriptor of it that, yes, Lindsay Mason [00:13:47]: technically, they spend half their physical time with the city, half their physical time with the university, but everything they're doing is university city work or town gown work. Everything is connected. So that position has existed since 2000. At the time, we were seeing a huge amount of disruptions in our local neighborhoods around campus, particularly large parties and riot. And so a lot of town gown efforts came out at that time, and one of them was this shared position. It now is so well established that I sign an inter gov I sign an intergovernmental agreement with the city only once every decade because we commit to it a decade at a time. So it's well established and well respected. So logistically, the position is housed at CSU. Lindsay Mason [00:14:35]: We had to pick one entity for, like, HR purposes. You know, where does the paycheck come from? All those things. And so we decided that it was gonna be based at the institution, but we get half of the salary from the city and half of the programmatic dollars from the city. There are complications that come with working within 2 entities but only truly being employed by 1 entity on paper, so at the city they have to be classified as a contractor. So they get access to a lot, but there are a couple of city systems that are difficult for them to access. Sometimes the technology is a little difficult because both of us have protected systems to log into, and again, being a city contractor, they don't get all the same access. But they have 2 email addresses, and that's purposeful because depending if the community liaison, that's the title of the position, I can't remember if I said that, depending if the community liaison is talking to a student resident or what we call a long term resident. That's the best way I distinguish between someone who's a CSU student and someone who's not a CSU student. Lindsay Mason [00:15:39]: But, of course, we don't like to identify people by what they're not. Sometimes they'll give them their city email and sometimes their CSU email because we want to be clear that this person isn't here just to represent 1 population. They're here for everybody that lives in our community, regardless of their affiliation with CSU or not. Their work is really focused in the neighborhoods that have high a high mixture of long term residents and student residents. Their position does some people say like boots on the ground type work. So if there's a long term resident and a student resident that live next door and they're having conflict because of noise or parking issues or something like that. The community liaison is trained in mediation to go out and have a direct conversation with those neighbors, but they are also leading high level partnerships between the university and the city that also do neighborhood type work. So, for example, every week, we have a meeting that involves myself and our student resolution center at CSU. Lindsay Mason [00:16:34]: Our student resolution center houses our conflict resolution services and our student conduct services. And then we also have neighborhood services in Fort Collins Police Services. We are meeting regularly and that is led by our community liaison because they're living in both worlds. They're at different staff meetings. They get the best understanding of what types of resources these different departments have. So the community liaison is leading us through what new partnerships can we build or what different resources can we bring to proactively and reactively support our neighborhoods around campus. The position, I agree, is incredibly valuable. I think excellent strategy for town gown relations, and it takes maintenance. Lindsay Mason [00:17:17]: It takes effort from, particularly from both myself and the manager of neighborhood services to make sure that we're in alignment and that we trust each other and that we both accept responsibility for what's happening in the neighborhoods around campus, that both of us are invested in that work. And so over the years, the manager at neighborhood services and the director of off campus life, we have changed. And it's important that we are telling the story of the importance of this position, the history of this position, and why the position needs to continue. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:49]: How do you all make yourselves known to the long term residents of the community? I feel like, you know, being kind of housed at the institution, communicating with our students is always its own challenge, but a much easier prospect at the end of the day than trying to make yourselves known and your services known to members of the community that have probably lived there longer than anyone's been in their roles. Lindsay Mason [00:18:10]: Yeah. So we have several programs that take place out in the community. Some of which are opt in by the long term residents, so they would need to know what's happening, but some of it is because we're literally walking up to their door. So, for example, the first Wednesday of classes, we will host our annual community welcome event where we get a couple 100 volunteers. The volunteers are a mix of city staff, CSU staff, CSU students, and some long term residents. And we go in teams door to door in the neighborhoods around campus to either welcome them to the neighborhood or welcome them to the academic year. We talk about changes upcoming for this year that might impact the local neighborhoods. But then also remind them about the art of neighboring, the importance of being a good neighbor. Lindsay Mason [00:18:53]: So we have some programs like that where we are going to them no matter what. They will see us. Then we have some other long standing programs where we send out mailings, And then we also have some long standing programs where neighbors can opt in. For example, we do a fall cleanup program where a couple thousand students will go out and rake leaves for mostly elderly or disabled residents to help them be able to age in their home. When we advertise those types of opportunities that are opt in, we are really using more city communication than we are university communication. So neighborhood services has their newsletter. They use Next store. We run stories in our local newspaper. Lindsay Mason [00:19:31]: So as an institution, I don't think I could effectively do that without my partnerships in the city. And then our community liaison is also going out to many city events and introducing themselves, talking to neighbors at events where the university would not normally be present. And so, I mean, some of our neighbors, sometimes when they have questions or tension or something, sometimes they call our office or call neighborhood services and they know. They're like, I need to talk to the community liaison. I know that's a resource you have, and they name it. And that for me is, well, I don't love that they're experiencing whatever tension it is. I'm like, oh, I'm glad you know though that we do care, and we have someone dedicated to working through that with you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:06]: Let's shift gears a little bit because one of the things that I think you've been able to do in your position is really grow from that program temporary coordinator into the person leading the office, And then ultimately with the director title and where you're organizationally situated, you're a true mid level manager in student affairs. What do you see as shifting right now for mid level managers in terms of your responsibilities or day to day worlds that may have been a little different than when you entered the field? And where do you see it going in the next couple of years? Lindsay Mason [00:20:38]: I'll share some thoughts I'm having, but I know that my perspective is, of course, heavily influenced by being a director of a small unit. There are 7 career staff in my team, which there could be some departments that are, like, I'm a department of 2. You seem much bigger. But in comparison to, like, a housing department or a rec center or a health network. Right? Those are quite large. So I know being a mid level manager in a smaller department. In addition, I'm also a mid level manager at a large university. One change I see coming, which I think is great, is the amount of data or reporting out that we are required to do. Lindsay Mason [00:21:17]: I think it is a positive trend for us as a profession that we are being asked to be more clear about the data that we are using to make decisions. It is difficult on departments that do not have an assessment assigned person. We're not big enough or have the resources to have someone that does, you know, assessment or evaluation or a program review as their dedicated job. So that's difficult. Okay. I have one that maybe more people will relate to. When I finished my master's in 2013, it was standard that in order to get an entry level student affairs role, you had to have a master's in student affairs. It is not like that anymore. Lindsay Mason [00:21:56]: As a profession, particularly because of the hiring and job turnover that happened during COVID, We are seeing particularly because of the job turnover that happened during COVID, but also because our pay and our profession has not kept pace in decades with where we should be paid. We are seeing a bigger trend of entry level roles being hired with folks that do not have a student affairs background. Now on the one hand, I love that. I love that I have someone in my office that comes out of property management and not from student affairs or someone that is coming more from a psychology or social work background and not out of student affairs. I think all that is great. It also, as a mid level manager, while supervising entry level employees is already a pull on mid level managers, training more entry level employees about our profession on the job is an even bigger pull. And, and that can be difficult. It can be more time consuming. Lindsay Mason [00:22:53]: Again, these people with other types of backgrounds, they bring a lot of value to our work, and I'm excited to have folks that aren't in student affairs, But I'm having to relearn how I onboard employees to include things like student development theory and things like that that traditionally they would have had training in. So that's maybe a trend that I've seen, and I think will only continue. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:14]: That's a great segue into our theme questions for this season. On the past, what's one component of the history of the student affairs profession that you think that we need to let go of? Lindsay Mason [00:23:25]: I like that student affairs professionals have a history of removing barriers for students of all identities to be able to gain access to higher ed. I felt that as a student, and I feel it in my working life that that's an important piece of what I do. But as a student affairs professional from a working class background, the definitions of professionalism I must meet feel outdated at best to me. I struggle with how I was encouraged to be more authentic as a student. But then once I represented the university, I had to fall in line with white middle class professionalism. So I want us not that there's no movement, but I wish more folks challenged how we define professionalism in our profession that is trying to work towards social justice. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:20]: That's a beautifully put statement. I agree with you. And I've seen some really great presentations at NASPA in the last couple of years around dress codes in particular and who they serve and who they don't and whose standard are we really enforcing. So that's a really good one to hang on to. And I see this as a person who shows up every day with very visible facial piercings, and I'm not taking them out for anybody. So Lindsay Mason [00:24:42]: As you shouldn't. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:43]: I'll be a great example of someone who can lead at the senior levels in student affairs, but also show up with visible tattoos and face piercings. I'm gonna keep doing it. Number 2, we're moving towards the present. What's happening in the field right now that's going well for us? Lindsay Mason [00:24:57]: I mentioned it earlier, our increasing usage of data. We need to be more clear about how we're using data to make our decisions. I feel our profession wanes in and out of how other people at our institutions and then certainly outside of higher education value the work that we do. Sometimes it is very evident, and sometimes it isn't. And how are we sharing data to tell our stories and to show that our work is theory and data driven? It's not random. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:24]: I think this is an area where AI is going to help us a lot if we can get there. But a lot of the tools that we need for assessment cost money, and a lot of us don't have the depth of training we need from a statistics perspective or a data science perspective. And so it's this tension of continually being a person of all trades in our profession. And then knowing that data driven information helps us get positions, helps us retain budget, helps us grow our programs, helps us improve the student experience, all of those things. But most of us took one class in our master's programs if we did go for the master's and not all of us did. So that's gonna be an interesting trend to continue to track. And let's move towards the future, which is in an ideal world, what does the field need to do to thrive towards the future? Lindsay Mason [00:26:11]: When I was reflecting on this, admittedly, I don't think my answer is from an ideal world. I was thinking more of just what do I think our profession needs? My answer certainly is heavily influenced by the fact that I do a lot of basic needs work. We need to study social work theories. I wish social work was more integrated into student affairs programs. I mean, even minimally as an elective to better inform how our students need to navigate both within our systems, but also navigating life outside of higher ed. So I think as a profession, we would benefit from more partnerships and more studying of social work theories. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:47]: And I'll give a shout out to student affairs organization called HECMA. It's the Higher Education Case Managers Association. They have both clinical and nonclinical tracks for case managers. These are people working in student care, both within counseling centers and teams of students offices, things like that. And they've started on that probably within the last 15 years or so. I would love to see that expand. That's a great perspective. Lindsay, anything else that you wanted to share on off campus and commuter students or the past, present, and future of student affairs? Lindsay Mason [00:27:16]: I appreciate the opportunity to be on this podcast to to talk about working with commuter or off campus students and specifically more broadly doing town gown work. I think it is a fairly niche area of student affairs, although town gown work exists across multiple departments at a university and a city. So while it might be niche in student affairs, the work is incredibly fulfilling, and I'm learning a lot of skills that can be applicable in a variety of areas. So I feel like I'm getting a lot of great professional development because I do town gown work. I'm challenged in a different way working across multiple organizations outside of my institution. And while I landed in it a little randomly because I was in the right place at the right time, I'm so thankful that I'm here. And I would want others to know I think this town gown type work is meaningful. It matters. Lindsay Mason [00:28:08]: It's challenging in a good way. And even if folks right now are not in a role that feels town gown, there is likely an opportunity for it to be so. So I think there's some cool expansion when a university and city or county or local areas think about working together. We do a lot of opportunities to do some cool Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:24]: things. It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:30]: Thanks so much, Joe. Glad to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a lot of things happening in NASPA this week. One of the dates to keep in mind as we're looking toward the future is the NASPA annual conference. It might seem like it's a long way away. However, it's not as far out as you think, and it is a perfect time for you to be thinking about making your plans, registering for the conference, and preparing for an amazing conference in New Orleans on March 15th through 19th. The focus areas of the conference this year are on well-being and healthy excellence in student affairs, changing the student affairs profession, and sustaining and celebrating the profession. There are so many opportunities to be able to take part in the conference, to learn, to grow, to be able to take all of that learning back to your own campuses. And if you've never attended a conference before or if this is your 10th or more conference, it is always a homecoming to go back to the conference and be able to reconnect with all of your professional colleagues. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:29]: It's the fall, and that means it's a perfect time to be able to do some, fall cleaning. And some of that fall cleaning means going into your NASPA profile to make sure that you are getting what you want. You can do that by going to the NASPA website atnaspa.org, clicking on my NASPA and logging in. When you log in, go to edit my profile and check all of the different links that are there. Make sure that your name and institution and all of the information and all of the information that's there is accurate. But then you want to go a little bit deeper and look at your engagement and be able to find out what are you actually signed up for. By clicking on my NASPA engagement, you have an opportunity to be able to sign up for different knowledge communities, journals, divisions, and groups, and be able to stay in the know of what is happening within NASPA. I highly encourage you to do this. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:24]: It doesn't take a lot of time. And after you add different things into your engagement portal, make sure to save it so that you will get informed about everything that you are most passionate about. Finally, today, I'm going to just throw out another professional development opportunity. I already talked about the annual conference, but I wanted to also talk about the 2025 NASPA Institute For New AVPs. The NASPA Institute For New AVPs is a foundational 3 day learning and networking experience designed to support and develop AVPs in their unique and challenging roles on campus. The institute is appropriate for AVPs and other senior level number twos who report to the highest ranking student affairs officer and who have been serving in their first AVP or number 2 position for no longer than 2 years. December 11th is the early registration deadline for this amazing professional development opportunity, which will be happening January 23rd through 25th in Columbus, Ohio. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:22]: So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:43]: Chris, thank you so much for another edition of NASPA World. Always great to learn what's going on in and around NASPA. Lindsay, we have our lightning round ready for you. Seven questions, 90 seconds. You ready to go? Lindsay Mason [00:32:55]: Okay. I'm ready.  Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:56]: All right. Number 1, If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Lindsay Mason [00:33:01]: What's coming to mind for me is some type of country song. Not a lot of people in student affairs listen to country. There's a lot of assumptions about me because I listen to country, but I like country music, and I'm okay with that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:11]: Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up? Lindsay Mason [00:33:15]: Oh, a dozer operator. My dad's a heavy equipment operator. I really wanted to drive tractors. And even to this day, I my dad's a professional truck driver. I also one day, I wanna get my CDL license. I love thing big things with engines. I owned a school bus for a year, and I was like, let me go drive this school bus. And I offered it to other people to drive it, and they're like, I would never do that. Lindsay Mason [00:33:34]: And I was like, how do you not wanna do this? So I wanted to drive big pieces of equipment. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:38]: My nephew would totally wanna spend all the time with you. He is currently obsessed with all things dozer related, Bob the Builder, all of it. Lindsay Mason [00:33:45]: Love it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:46]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Lindsay Mason [00:33:49]: I have several women in particular in my life that have been excellent mentors for me. I think about women that influenced me heavily when I was an undergrad, people that were strong influences on me when I was in my masters, and then now as a professional. I'm gonna mention 3. The 3 women who worked full time in off campus life when I first started, Jeannie Ortega, Emily Seams, and Nancy Rhodes. I still work with Nancy. She and I are still together in our office. And I recently went to a lunch with all the career staff in my office except Nancy because she was visiting her mom in Florida. And I actually realized in that moment, I did not like being without my 3 original women because they placed such a heavy influence in my life. Lindsay Mason [00:34:27]: So Jeanne Ortega, Emily Seams, Nancy Rhodes. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:29]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Lindsay Mason [00:34:32]: Maybe a little nontraditional. I recently well, the last couple of years, I've been really digging Cal Newport and his work around deep meaningful work, so much so that I built a workshop that is offered through my university's talent development. And I like his techniques around developing my capacity to do focused, deep, meaningful work. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:52]: Number 5, the best TV show you've binged lately. Lindsay Mason [00:34:55]: My new favorite comfort show is Abbott Elementary. I see that being one that I'm gonna turn back to a lot, similar to how I turn back to The Office or Parks and Rec. So Abbott Elementary. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:05]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Lindsay Mason [00:35:09]: Because I'm a 1st gen student, I carry a lot of financial responsibility in my family. And so I listen to financial podcasts. 2 of them that I listen to are choose FI and all the hacks. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:18]: Alright. And finally, number 7. Any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? Lindsay Mason [00:35:23]: The people that I did not mention earlier, folks that were really influential in my career as an undergrad include Dilsey Perez and Jenny Ruiz. When I was a grad student, I had a lot of great mentorship from Bobby Kuntzmann and Pamela Norris. I also think one of the best decisions I ever made in my life is marrying my husband, Jason Martin. He's an excellent partner. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:41]: Lindsay, it's been a pleasure to get to know you better today, to learn about your expertise and great work with the community that you're living in and working with. I'm sure there are folks that would like to get connected with you either for your area of specialty or also just getting involved with the knowledge community that you're co leading. If anyone would like connect with you after the show, how can they find you? Lindsay Mason [00:35:59]: I think the best way would be to email my Colorado State email address. It's [email protected]. And it's lindsay with an a. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:09]: Lindsay, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Lindsay Mason [00:36:11]: Thanks, Jill. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:17]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at [email protected], or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill l Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr.Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Understanding the Unique Needs of Adult Learners In this episode of SA Voices From the Field, Dr. Jill Creighton delve into the intricacies of supporting adult learners with Lindsay Taylor, a strategic program manager and NASPA leader. Lindsay shares her extensive experience in aiding adult learners through various academic and co-curricular initiatives, particularly her work with the National Society of Leadership and Success (NSLS) and NASPA’s Adult Learners and Students with Children Knowledge Community. Transition to Online Learning During the Pandemic Lindsay describes the transformation her organization experienced moving from a hybrid model to a fully online one. Initiating this shift just before the pandemic, her team had to quickly adapt to the exclusively online format, relying on trial and error to determine the best technological solutions. Initially experimenting with Google discussions, they ultimately settled on the GroupMe app based on positive student feedback and participation rates. This application allowed for ease of use, catering to those less tech-savvy by enabling text message integration. This adaptability and student-centric approach played a significant role in maintaining engagement and continuing student success during challenging times. Strategies for Engaging and Supporting Adult Learners Recognizing that adult learners often juggle multiple responsibilities, Lindsay highlights several strategies her team implements: Accessible Orientation Materials: Crafting easily accessible orientation videos. Providing clear guidelines on software usage. Offering support documents and checklists to ease the transition into virtual learning environments. Inclusive Support Systems: Including parents in the educational process fosters a family homework dynamic. Encouraging family involvement can positively impact degree completion and commencement rates among adult learners. Community Creation: Developing online hubs for students to connect and share resources. Encouraging direct student input through annual engagement surveys to tailor activities and support structures that best meet their needs. Overlaps with First-Generation Students Many strategies developed for adult learners also benefit first-generation students. By creating a readily accessible support system, both groups receive the necessary guidance and resources without feeling alienated. This approach aligns with diversity, equity, and inclusion values, ensuring that all students feel supported and engaged regardless of their background or current situation. Leveraging Technology for a Sense of Belonging Lindsay discusses the importance of creating virtual communities where students can network and establish personal connections despite physical distances. The use of platforms like GroupMe for success networking meetings, where students set smart goals and hold each other accountable, exemplifies leveraging technology to foster a sense of belonging. These communities become invaluable for students who might otherwise feel isolated due to their busy schedules or geographical constraints. Challenges and Solutions in Success Networking Meetings A significant hurdle in leadership programs is the success networking meeting. Students must engage in group collaboration, which proves challenging for those juggling multiple responsibilities. By creating flexible, accessible options through technology, Lindsay and her team effectively support students who might fear overcommitment. This tailored approach ensures students can complete their responsibilities without foregoing critical networking opportunities. Future Directions in Student Affairs Looking forward, Lindsay advocates for continuous assessment and innovative practices in student affairs. Emphasizing technology and community-building, she underlines the importance of evolving to meet students' changing needs. Lindsay also encourages involving students in decision-making processes, ensuring their voices directly influence the programs designed to support their success. In this episode, Lindsay's insights into supporting adult learners and students with children resonate deeply. The innovative strategies her team employs to create accessible and engaging learning environments offer valuable lessons for educational institutions striving to adapt and support their students. As we move forward, the key to success lies in continuing to listen, adapt, and innovate being driven by the diverse needs of our student populations. You are encouraged to connect with Lindsay Taylor on LinkedIn for further insights and participation in upcoming meetings focused on collaboration within the NASPA Knowledge Community. The future of student affairs undoubtedly involves a blend of technology, empathy, and proactive engagement strategies, paving the way for inclusive and successful educational experiences for all. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. Be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on essay voices, we welcome Lindsay Taylor, sheher. Lindsay is the strategic program manager for her university's chapter of the National Society of Leadership and Success or N SLS. She also serves on the leadership committee for NASPA's Adult Learners and Students with Children Knowledge Community. The N SLS chapter she manages serves more than 2,000 students in the southeast region. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:49]: Lindsay holds an MBA from Quinnipiac University and is currently pursuing her certified student affairs educator certification through the Higher Education Consortium. Using her business expertise, Lindsay has coached more than 670 students, helping them develop their leadership acumen. She continues to motivate and mentor students and student chapter leaders and has established the chapter as a growing financially self sustaining operation. Lindsay attribute NSLS chapter success to ensuring students are heard and creating innovative solutions current and future practice of student affairs around adult learners and non traditional learners. I think that's definitely a fantastic area for us to continue to explore. You're also one of our knowledge community co chairs, and you're working, quite a lot to support, students with children. So a lot to dig into today. But we always love to start our episodes by asking, what is your current role and how did you get to your current seat? Lindsay Taylor [00:01:49]: I have multiple roles that I hold. So I work in admissions. I am a chapter adviser for one of the honor societies for my university, and we cover the entire southeast region from Maryland and DC all the way down to Florida and over to Tennessee and Kentucky. I am also on their co curricular board. And then, as you mentioned, I'm one of the co chairs for the adult learners and students with children knowledge community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:12]: So you are wearing a ton of hats right now. Lindsay Taylor [00:02:14]: Yes. I enjoyed though. I also get to be a programming chair for one of our business resource groups. So I really enjoyed diving into that, and I'm just the person that keeps asking questions, and then I get involved into things. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:27]: I think that is a very traditional NASPA story that we're all just continually saying yes, and then all of a sudden we find ourselves in all of these big things. Well, can you talk to us a little bit about the knowledge community first? I think it's a knowledge community that's fairly new in the NASPA space compared to maybe some of the ones that have been there for the last 20, 30 years. But I think you're serving an incredibly important population. All of our students are important. This particular population, I think, is growing. Lindsay Taylor [00:02:52]: Definitely. I joined this knowledge community during one of the pandemic NASPA conferences that was online, and I was thrilled by the stuff that was happening. And they were talking about how in Oregon, there was laws being passed and Illinois to collect demographic data on our adult learners so that the schools can better serve them. In Oregon, the one university that was talking about it, they have a whole day to celebrate their adult learners, and I thought that was fantastic. So the knowledge community really focuses on how we can support the adult learners in that space, but also acknowledging that there's people that have pen they're taking care of. And often these learners are people that they're working at least one job, maybe more, while trying to go to school and care for their family. So it's a balancing act for them to manage their time and still be successful in their class. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:40]: How are we defining adult learners in the knowledge community space? I think it's a fun tension because all of our students are adults once they come to the collegiate space. So it's a unique utilization of the term. Lindsay Taylor [00:03:51]: So we actually had a conversation about this at our last strategy meeting, and we kind of have it to how the student is identifying themselves. Because it came up about even, like, people that are caring for other people outside of children, especially ever since the pandemic. Like, a lot of people got sick, so they may be caring for parents now. And it's how the student is identifying themselves. If they identify themselves as someone that's an adult learner versus that traditional, you've graduated high school, now you're moving on into college, they might have started their academic journey a little bit later. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:23]: And we are also seeing an increase in students with children balancing those priorities of earning their degrees while also raising their families. I was recently at a university in North Central Minnesota. And one of the things that I loved is they've converted one of their student apartment buildings into single parent housing, which I thought was really unique. I had not seen that done at many other institutions. Seeing family housing in a lot of places, but this was really specific to support students who did not have another adult partner helping them raise that family. So I thought that was a great trend. What other types of trends are you seeing that are supporting our students with children? Lindsay Taylor [00:04:58]: I'm seeing a lot more initiatives to allow them to feel like they're being seen because oftentimes that population of students, they feel like they're the forgotten ones. They may be going to the community colleges a lot when they start off or going right into the online, and they often feel disconnected from the university because they don't have that traditional time to go join student clubs and be in person because they're often at their job or even having take their kids somewhere. And then so I think because the pandemic forces of a whole industry to kind of adapt and change. A lot more schools are offering more online environments, and it gives that flexibility back to the student so that they can still feel like they can balance everything and be pursuing their degree. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:41]: That balance component, I think, applies to all sorts of learners who are working full time jobs or maybe multiple jobs and trying to earn their degrees. You mentioned connection as a place where universities are still trying to figure out how to engage our students that are online learners or maybe students that are only coming to campus for their classes. Maybe they don't want to join a club or org, or maybe they do, but they simply do not have capacity. So what are some of the practices we're seeing to build those connections given that our traditional methods are probably not going to work? Lindsay Taylor [00:06:12]: I think having more of an online community home. So, like, the honor society that we run, we have over 2,000 students in our chapter, and majority of them are adult learners. We do an engagement survey every year, and we say, okay. What is working for you and what is not working for you? Because we want you who knows the student better than they know themselves? So we wanna hear from them on what can we do as a chapter to better serve you through your leadership program so that you're able to finish that step. Because the one step that just always holds a lot of students is what's called a success networking team meeting, which is the one step that they can't do solo. It's the one step where they have to be in a group and collaborating with people and talking with other people. And when you have people that are 3rd shift and other different, like, jobs, they have 2 of them that they have to balance. They're like, I don't have time, and they just back away. Lindsay Taylor [00:07:04]: And so I think by having more of those trends of asking the students what they need, there's platforms out there, like, Unified that I know other schools have integrated into their platform that brings what's going on to the university all to their student portal so that these students can see what's going on, see what's trending at their university, see what's out there for them, and it making it more accessible. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:26]: You mentioned a success networking meeting. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Lindsay Taylor [00:07:30]: Yeah. It's an opportunity for the students to establish a smart goal. So it requires a my half doing a lot of, like, success coaching and say, okay. Well, that's a great goal, but how do we take that from a goal to a smart goal? When do you want to achieve this? What are the steps you're gonna take to reach this goal? And really kind of guiding the students through that when they're submitting their reports, but it's an opportunity for them to connect in with other individuals in the honor society and have that accountability aspect to that because their other fellow members are encouraging them. And it's always great to see that because one of the things that we've done for our chapters will have the on live events, but then we also put everybody into a group me. So we're utilizing technology to bring it to our adult learners and those that have children and people that are caring for others so that they're able to still do their success networking team meetings in that group setting, but it's just at their fingertips. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:23]: And you're doing that in an online context, which I think is quite innovative. A lot of institutions would love to be pushing that direction. So how did you get your institution to move from this idea that we needed to have this space? It was probably in person. Pandemic happened. That pushed a lot of us online. But what made it stick and create infrastructure in the online space? Lindsay Taylor [00:08:43]: So our chapter actually formed the fall of 2019. So we were a hybrid chapter where we had our main location in Tennessee, and then we also are doing more hybrid style for those in North Carolina. During the pandemic, we expanded out to where we're at now where we covered the entire southeast region. So we were doing that while having to adapt to going strictly online, and we went through a lot of, like, different iterations because we were like, okay. What if we use the Google discussions? Because you can create a whole discussion board in Google to see, like, how would this work for the students to be able to navigate this. But when we saw that some people were having trouble technology wise, like, not everybody's gonna be technologically savvy, and so we then moved it to GroupMe to try that for the students. And it was kind of a trial and error of, okay, what is gonna work for this chapter? And as the chapter advisor and it also gives a lot of flexibility in running chapters. They're like, you have these set guidelines that you have to follow. Lindsay Taylor [00:09:40]: But as far as if you wanna modify certain things for your chapter to best work for it, you can. And I appreciate that because that's what's allowed for us to really, can. And I appreciate that because that's what's allowed for us to really optimize the technology and find something that was gonna be simpler. Something that people can literally just use their phones because with GroupMe, it'll send it as a text message to them, or they can be in the GroupMe app. And so it made it something that they're familiar with, and then that's kind of what allowed for a lot more people. And I explained to them, like, well, all you have to do is this. They're like, it's that easy? Yes. We've literally simplified it to make it as easy for you as possible. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:14]: Let's talk about the tech a minute because I think the tech is always pushing the field forward into the future. I think a lot of institutions are currently making the rounds through Discord and Slack and GroupMe and whatever other platform we're using to create groups with students. I know this was Facebook Groups back in the day, and now we've kind of merged into other spaces. How did your team decide that GroupMe was going to be the way to meet students where they're at? Lindsay Taylor [00:10:41]: So we started integrating that around 2021 or 2022, and we had, like, our first kind of cohort of students. And then through the engagement survey, we said, okay. Did you guys like this? Which one are you using more? Did you, like, attend the live events, or did you find the group me was easy to use? And then based on that's the group of students' feedback, we determined that the group meet what's gonna be that best option for everybody because of the positive feedback that we got back from the students. So that's why we continue to use that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:13]: What other strategies are you using that you're finding quite effective in engaging your adult learners? Lindsay Taylor [00:11:18]: I would say bringing it to their forefront of where they can find the information. The one thing I found is, like, they just don't have time to go digging through stuff. They need it right front and center to them where it's easily accessible. They can find it. So this year, we are actually creating a new member orientation video separate from the orientation that kinda guides them through their leadership programs. So we're like, hey. We're your chapter adviser, and this is your student president. We're gonna kinda guide you through your entire NSLs portal so that as we're having our members join, we can send that out and we've created, like, little syllabus documents to say, here's the software that you should be using. Lindsay Taylor [00:11:57]: Like, make sure you're using the NSL's mobile app. Make sure you have the GroupMe app, and then listing out everything for them. So that there's no question about what's going on, that everything is like, hey. Here's a document. You can print this off. We created, like, an induction steps checklist for them. So with their s and t's, if they attend the live event but they forget to submit the report, they can put on the paper, oh, I attended it this day. And then as that reminder, it says, and I submitted my report on x y z date. Lindsay Taylor [00:12:24]: So it gives them that way that if they're, you know, short on time, they can go back to their document and then go, oh, I can add the date for this and then get that submitted. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:33]: I'm hearing a lot of overlap in success for 1st generation students and what you're finding is successful for the adult learning communities that you're serving. How many of your students are also in that 1st gen space? Lindsay Taylor [00:12:46]: I haven't asked that question, but I think that would be a really good question to ask. A lot of the students, when we ask what their age range is, the majority of our students are usually 40 and over, but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't also be a 1st gen student. I think having worked on the admission side with a lot of the first gen students, I do think there is that challenge when they don't know what to expect and being able to be that guiding force sort of speak that can say, okay. And this is what you can expect and, like, asking, do you under like, stay in all of this? And then making sure that their support system also understands Because sometimes people have questions, what are you doing? And so I think it's having information that's easily accessible to both the 1st gen and the adult learners does help because sometimes they need that reference point to come back to. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:36]: And what we know, right, is that if it's good for a 1st gen student, it's gonna be good for all students. And that's really about communication, dispelling the ivory tower, and the language that we use that could be to insider, to the field, or to the institution, redefining terms, that kind of thing. You just made a really important point, which is also looping in student support systems to help them through the process. When you're working with adult learners, who are you looping in generally from that support systems perspective? Lindsay Taylor [00:14:05]: So a lot of the students that I work with through admissions, they often have children. So I'll always crack the joke and be like, oh, you're gonna have a homework table now. Like, everybody sits down, they do their homework together. And it makes them laugh, but I think it also, like, creates that visual for them to see themselves being successful in their class, to see themselves being able to demonstrate, like, hey, this is something I'm able to accomplish so that they feel like they're encouraging their kids to also do well in their classes. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:32]: And when you're seeing families do this together, what are we seeing on the finishing side, on the commencement and on the degree completion? Lindsay Taylor [00:14:40]: I love when I get to see the students make it through the program, but because I'm also the chapter adviser for the honor study, I get to see them again when they then become a part of the honor society, and it's often a great experience because they're like, hey. It's you. And it's so great to see that in order for them to be able to join that, they do have to meet GBA requirements. They have to be progressing through their program. So it's kind of like when you're going through a marathon and someone hands you your water and your cookie to keep going. It's like, hey. You made it this far. Look at what you're able to accomplish. Lindsay Taylor [00:15:13]: And being able to just then watch them set goals of, I wanna finish my degree by x y z date, and then some of them are towards the end of their program. So then their 3rd and final s and t meeting that they submit for their, hey, I'm only 2 classes away from my program now. And being able to see the success that they're having is just so cool to see, like, their whole journey and be a part of that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:35]: We've talked a bit about success. I wanna talk a little bit about the inverse in terms of what are you seeing with your adult learner communities that might be leading to a stop out or a drop out? Lindsay Taylor [00:15:44]: I think the time management is one of the most common ones that I hear from a lot of students that come back is that life just got busy. And, I'm the first one to say life just happens a lot to adult learners. I mean, they could have cars breaking down or have something happen with their job. They get laid off or anything can happen. And it kinda goes back to, like, Maslow's hierarchy of needs. They have to make sure that their basic needs are being met before they can even think about their education because they often have other people that are relying on them or they have to self rely, and there's no one else that they can depend on to help them through those times. And I think those are some of the biggest causes as to why students, you know, shift out is funding life happening to mom and not really having any other support to kind of help guide them through those tough situations.  Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:33]: Do you have any advice for other student affairs professionals who are also supporting students in these situations? Lindsay Taylor [00:16:38]: I have found that sometimes if you can just make them realize that you're there for them, even if you're just listening and showing that empathy. If you're aware of, like, resources that are in, like, the state, being able to direct them to resources that can help. I found that that really helps because it goes beyond them thinking of you as just the man trying to get their money kind of thing to them feeling like you're actually there for them and there to support them and that you genuinely care about their success. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:10]: Are there any other activities happening in the KC right now that you want NASPA listeners to know about? Lindsay Taylor [00:17:15]: Well, we do have upcoming meetings. We usually do them the 1st Friday of every month. So I would love for more people to come to our meetings. We're always brainstorming how we can collaborate with other Casey's as well because there is a lot of intersectionality between what we do and some of the other knowledge communities as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:33]: And how can folks find you if they'd like to join? Lindsay Taylor [00:17:35]: They can find me on my LinkedIn. If they search for Lindsay Taylor, they'll be able to find me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:40]: Well, Lindsay, we are in our theme of the past, present, and future of student affairs. And this season, kind of like our season on Becoming, we have a set of questions that we're gonna be asking every guest that are specific to the past, present, and future of student affairs. So I'm gonna start with our past question, which is what's one component of the history of the student affairs profession that you think that we should continue to carry forward? Lindsay Taylor [00:18:05]: I definitely think assessment and evaluation is something that we really should carry forward. I think it's what's led to different student development theories, but it's also we live in a society where our information is constantly being collected. So why wouldn't it be any different for a university to go beyond just the persistent measure analytics and being able to see, okay, how are our student organizations impacting persistence? Because that's part of why we do our engagement survey is to really analyze what is working and what is not, and being able to get that information from the students can be really valuable. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:41]: And moving into the present, what's happening in the field right now that's going well for the profession? Lindsay Taylor [00:18:46]: I think the focus on diversity, equity, and inclusion in higher end, you know, it's becoming challenging. It's something that is going well for, student affairs because it allows for students to benefit from having diverse perspectives. Especially when you look at adult learners, these are individuals that are already in the workforce. They are already being different cultures and being involved in that. I think having that ability to have DNI a part of curriculum actually allows for them to not just learn information, but then be able take that back and implement it into their lives. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:18]: Looking forward into the future, in an ideal world, what does the field need to do to thrive towards our future? Lindsay Taylor [00:19:24]: I think really taking advantage of technology. Technology can be a great way to connect people, to fill in the gaps for adult learners, 1st gen, whoever the student identifies as. It helps to create communities for students to find their sense of belonging in the institution, but do it on a time frame that really works best for them. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:48]: I wholeheartedly agree with you on the technology piece. I'm currently, teaching as an adjunct in a higher ed master's course, and I'm teaching a tech module. And our first lesson is gonna be all about AI and how higher ed and student affairs can harness AI for good instead of for the scary stuff. I think a lot of times because it's a bit unknown, a lot of us are a little bit like, oh. And it particularly for my colleagues in student conduct and seeing the rise of AI in what we would also call AI or academic integrity, artificial intelligence and academic integrity. It's getting to be a bit of a dicey space. So a lot for us to figure out. Lindsay, is there anything else that you'd like to share about the adult learner community or the National Honor Society that you're advising? Lindsay Taylor [00:20:31]: If I could say one thing, I wouldn't say don't be afraid of innovation. And it's the one thing that I constantly am doing is how can we make this better? What can we do that improves this? Especially, if you're engaging with your students and getting that feedback from them, bring it back to the students. Our eboard, we analyze that data from the engagement survey, and we have about 13 or so 10 to 13 student leaders on our eboard. And I will bring it back to them and say, okay. This is the feedback that you're getting from your members. What can we do? What are some solutions that you're thinking about? And then I'll even suggest things to them and say, what do you think about this? How does this look? So it allows for them to engage in things that impact others like themselves. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:15]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:21]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a lot going on as we start a brand new year. And, 1st and foremost, the 2025 Excellence Awards are now open. And any of you that wish to be able to apply for one of the Excellence Awards, and I highly encourage you to do just that, to be able to recognize the excellence awards, recognize amazing programs at our different institutions, to be able to showcase the great things that are happening and the people that are making those things happen. There's a ton of different categories and a lot of different areas that will help you to be able to bring forth these amazing services, these amazing things that are contributing to the success of our students. I highly encourage you to check them out. You can apply for an excellence award until October 9, 2024. So submit a nomination today. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:17]: The 6th Annual European Conference for Student Affairs and Services is coming up November 20th through 22nd in Saint Julien's, Malta. This conference provides a platform for student affairs professionals, academics, researchers, and policymakers to discuss innovative programs, practices, models, and trends in student affairs. This year's conference is called Universities of the Future, Empowering Student Affairs Professionals and Fostering Student Flourishing. The regular registration for this conference is going to be closing on September 17th. So you still have a little bit of time left, and I highly encourage you to take a look at it. You can find out more on the NASPA website. Just recently, the Journal of First Generation Stupid Success, volume 4 issue 2 came out. And if you have never checked out this amazing journal, this is another great resource that is provided to you as a member of NASPA, and I highly encourage you to check it out. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:10]: There's a number of great articles in this journal, including the role of family cultural capital to predicting study abroad participation in 1st generation US undergraduates. Also revisiting college access and equity, perspectives of continuing generation college students on their 1st generation peers. These are just 2 of a number of different articles in the journal itself. It's always a fascinating read, and you can find this journal and all of the journals that you have access to as a member of NASPA. On the NASPA website, when you go to the NASPA when you go to naspa.org, just go under publications, and you can find all of the journals there. Finally, I talked about the excellence awards, but there are a number of other awards that are also available to you as a NASPA member. So if you want to honor a rising mid level professional or the president of your institution or a faculty member for what they're doing in the field, consider community. Awards through most of the knowledge communities. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:18]: And all of these different awards are available for individuals to be able to be considered for. And you can nominate someone until October 9th. It is really important that we recognize best practices, people and more to be able to allow for others to learn from their success. Please take a moment to nominate someone for one of these awards and help the profession to be able to recognize the great work of people and programs that are truly working to create opportunities for success for our students and our campuses. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:51]: I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association, and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:21]: Chris, thank you so much for getting us kicked off with NASPA World. It's always great to learn what's going on in and around NASPA. And, Lindsay, we have now reached our lightning round. I have Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Lindsay Taylor [00:26:36]: Maybe, like, ready to rock or something. Like, let's get it going. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:46]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up? Lindsay Taylor [00:26:50]: I don't remember when I was 5, but I know I spent a lot of time really just wanting to help others. So it's great that I get to kinda do that and then differently than I thought. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:58]: Number 3, Who's your most influential professional mentor? Lindsay Taylor [00:27:01]: So it's not, like, mine directly, but my husband worked at a community college before. And one of his managers for the fitness center, she said, never be afraid to ask the question because the worst someone can say is no. And I live that every Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:16]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Lindsay Taylor [00:27:18]: Well, right now, I'm studying for the certified student affairs educator. That was definitely the handbook. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:24]: Number 5, the best TV show that you've binged lately? Lindsay Taylor [00:27:27]: Admittedly, because I am a nineties person, I just finished rewatching all of Girl Meets World because I love Boy Meets World, and I love the Feeny call. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:37]: I've been listening to a ton of Pod Meets World. Lindsay Taylor [00:27:40]: I love that too. They're great. I love them. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:43]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Lindsay Taylor [00:27:47]: Pod Meets World. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:49]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? Lindsay Taylor [00:27:54]: I would like to shout out our co chair president for the adult learners, students, and children, Casey. Kelly, she's doing a fantastic job at it, and she does a great job in managing all of us co chairs, and I'm excited for what the future is gonna bring with her leadership. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:08]: Lindsay, it's been a pleasure to speak with you today. I know I've learned a lot from you, and I know our listeners will as well. I know you mentioned your LinkedIn earlier, but if anyone would like to reach you after the show, what's the best way to find you? Lindsay Taylor [00:28:19]: Definitely more on my LinkedIn because I'm on there a lot because I also manage our KC LinkedIn, and then I also manage the LinkedIn group for the Honor Society. So I'm always on there. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:30]: And you can find Lindsay's spelling in the show notes. Lindsay is with an a y, so please make sure you connect with her. Lindsay, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Lindsay Taylor [00:28:40]: Thank you for having me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:46]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at [email protected], or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill l Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and by doctor Jill Creighton. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:23]: That's me. Produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Welcome to another enriching season of the Student Affairs Voices from the Field podcast! As we kick off Season 11, hosts Dr. Jill Creighton and Dr. Christopher Lewis dive deep into the past, present, and future of student affairs, offering a robust discussion designed to resonate with everyone from seasoned experts to fresh-faced professionals stepping into the field for the first time. This season, aptly timed as we approach fall 2024, promises to unravel layers of insight by unpacking critical themes and interviewing diverse voices within higher education. A Summer to Reflect Dr. Jill Creighton opens by setting the stage for what promises to be an impactful season. “This break between season 10 and season 11 has gone by at a blink,” notes Dr. Christopher Lewis, encapsulating the whirlwind that is summer in academia. The warm months are a brief yet essential time for rest, reflection, and preparation — particularly relevant for professionals in student affairs who anticipate the fall with a mixture of excitement and, often, trepidation. As campuses spring back to life, it’s a period of rejuvenation and readiness, laying the groundwork for the academic adventures to follow. Election Year Dynamics As Dr. Creighton mentions, “Anytime we have an election year in the US, it changes the work that we do.” The intersection of politics and education makes for a tumultuous landscape. Political outcomes affect campus climates, funding, and overall student wellbeing. It impacts not just the professionals within student affairs but also the students they serve. Dr. Lewis reflects on this, acknowledging the complexity that comes with trying to create a smooth transition for new and returning students amid political unrest. The 2024 election year, therefore, is expected to bring unique challenges and opportunities. How campuses handle political discourse and maintain inclusivity will be key areas of focus. Whether it involves navigating conversations about policy impacts or ensuring that marginalized voices are heard, student affairs professionals have a pivotal role in steering the educational experience during such crucial times. Exploring the Past, Present, and Future For Seasons 11 and 12, the podcast is taking a thematic approach, concentrating on the past, present, and future of student affairs. This strategic focus builds upon the success of previous seasons that examined transitions in the industry. By honing in on this comprehensive tripartite theme, the podcast aims to paint a holistic picture of where student affairs has been, where it stands today, and where it's headed. Each guest will be challenged to answer three fundamental questions about the past, present, and future of student affairs. These discussions will not only highlight individual professional areas of expertise but will also address broader functional areas and trends. Expect rich dialogue on how historical contexts have shaped current practices and how emerging trends are set to redefine the student affairs landscape. Diverse Voices Across Career Stages One of the notable features of this season is its commitment to inclusivity in terms of career stages. As Dr. Creighton points out, the goal is to engage voices from all walks of professional life. Whether you’re a retiree offering seasoned wisdom, a first-year professional with fresh insights, a grad student bringing academic rigor, or a mid-level professional balancing day-to-day operations, your story is valuable. Listeners are encouraged to contribute by recommending others or volunteering themselves to be part of this dynamic discourse. The podcast team is eager to feature a mosaic of perspectives, illustrating the diverse tapestry of experiences that comprise student affairs today. As we embark on this new season, the *Student Affairs Voices from the Field* podcast stands as a beacon for thoughtful conversation and professional development. From examining the impact of political climates on campuses to exploring the evolution of student affairs, this season sets the stage for an exciting journey through the myriad aspects of higher education. We invite you to listen, engage, and reflect as we unravel the past, present, and future of student affairs together. For those interested in contributing to the season, send your recommendations to [email protected]. Whether you're a novice or a veteran in the field, your voice matters and can profoundly impact the broader student affairs community. Catch the latest episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and don't forget to leave a review to help others discover this invaluable resource. Here's to another season of learning and growing together!   TRANSCRIPTION Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:00]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. Brought to you by NASPA, we curate free and accessible professional development for higher ed pros wherever you happen to be. Be. This is season 11, the past, present, and future of student affairs, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Chris, we've hit fall 2024. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:29]: It's amazing. This break between season 10 and season 11 has gone by at a blink, and it has been a really quick summer. I'm glad that we're hitting the fall and we're really getting ready, not only for a new season, but a new fall with new students and just really excited about it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:48]: I'm starting to see move in pictures for our profession. We're all headed for our next adventure around the academic calendar. And I think student affairs as a profession might be in for a little bit of a ride this fall. I think anytime we have an election year in the US, it changes the work that we do. So I'm definitely thinking about all of our colleagues out there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:15]: Definitely hear you in that regard. I feel for the people that are not only parents that are moving their kids in for the first time or second time or third time, but for all of us as professionals that are working to make that smooth and make it a seamless transition for all of our students. But you're right. It can definitely be a very tumultuous few months as we go through this election and whatever the outcome is going to be and how that politically is going to impact how our campuses run, how it impacts our students, and more. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:48]: With all of those impacts, as we thought about what we wanted to look at for what is now season 11, if you can believe it, of essay voices from the field. We really began reflecting on how our last seasons of 9 and 10 on transitions. It felt pretty successful for us in looking at a whole season arc on one theme. Gave us a way to focus in on what was going on. And so we're gonna try it again for seasons 11 and 12. We're gonna be looking at the past, present, and future of student affairs. And I really can't think of a better time to be doing that than right now. And so this year, kind of going back to our season on becoming, we're gonna be asking each of our guests 3 questions. 1 about the past of student affairs, one about the present, and one about the future. So in addition to learning about their professional areas of expertise, their functional areas, the work that they're doing on their campuses, and the messages they have for all of us. I really look forward to hearing their thoughts on that topic. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:45]: You know, I'm really looking forward to it as well. And I think there's going to be a wide array of individuals that have some really interesting things to say. We have some names that we're already looking at. We're excited about the people that are going to be joining us over the next year, and all this are out there. If there are people that you feel that really should be a part of this season that have compelling stories or have something that that you feel that could really add to the discourse about the past, present, and future of our profession, we'd love to hear from you. Send us an email at [email protected]. And we would love to be able to get your names that you're submitting in, whether it's you, whether it's someone else. Let us know. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:32]: And when we talk about past, present, and future voices, we're also looking at where you are in the tenure in your career. If you're retired, we wanna hear from you. If you are in your very first year, we wanna hear from you. If you're a grad student, we especially wanna hear from you. And if you're a mid level professional making it work day in and day out, we wanna hear from you. So please reach out. We'd love to feature your voice on the show for season 112 on the past, present, and future of student affairs. See you very soon. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:05]: This has been an episode of SA voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This show is made possible because of you, the listeners. We continue to be grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. If you'd like to reach the show, you can email us at [email protected], or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It truly does help other student affairs pros find the show and helps us to become more visible in the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:40]: This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In the latest episode of “Student Affairs Voices from the Field,” hosts Dr. Jill Creighton and Dr. Christopher Lewis bring Season 10 to a close with transformative updates and forward-looking announcements. Dr. Creighton opens the episode by introducing the podcast's continuing focus on transitions within student affairs, a nod to the overarching theme from Season 9. However, the hosts regret to inform listeners that the promised grand finale has been postponed. In its place, listeners are treated to the exciting news of upcoming bonus episodes featuring notable guests. One of the key highlights is the announcement of Dr. Amelia Parnell as the incoming president of NASPA. Dr. Lewis shares his enthusiasm about Dr. Parnell’s upcoming appearance on the podcast, where she will discuss the future direction of the association under her leadership. Dr. Creighton encourages prospective candidates to check out the newly posted Vice President for Policy and Research position at NASPA, emphasizing the mentorship opportunities available. As the episode wraps up, Dr. Creighton expresses heartfelt gratitude to listeners for their engagement and support. She encourages them to reach out with feedback and suggestions for future episodes, and invites them to spread the word about the show. The hosts sign off, promising insightful discussions and inspirational stories in the bonus episodes to come.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of On Transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:20]: Hey, Chris. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:24]: Hey, Jill. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:24]: Well, our finale plans have hit a bit of a transition, haven't they? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:30]: Yeah. I guess, we are finishing off our season of transitions with a transition as we move into a further transition of a new season. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:38]: So with that in mind, we know that we promised you a finale worth waiting for. And I think, first of all, we're very sorry we're not gonna be able to deliver. So we don't wanna lead you astray with our promises for a big finale, but we do wanna promise you a couple of bonus episodes for the summer, including a very special guest. Chris, do you wanna tell us who's coming on? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:57]: You know, we're really excited to have doctor Amelia Parnell joining us this summer as she transitions into the president of NASPA role. And we've already reached out, talked to her. We're getting a time with her very soon to be able to record an episode to talk about where we're at as an association, but where we're going in the future under her leadership. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:19]: And with that in mind, a huge congratulations to Emilia. We could not be more thrilled to be led by you going forward. You are going to do an amazing job, and I just am so thrilled to be seeing you at the helm of NASPA. With that in mind too, we also see Amelia's former position is now posted. So if you are interested in becoming the vice president for policy and research at NASPA, go check out NASPA's career page. You can see the details of the job description, the posting, and all of the relevant information. We know that whomever comes into that role has some huge shoes to fill, but we also know they're going to have amazing mentorship. This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:01]: This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us atsa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:40]: That's me. Produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of

We hope that you have been enjoying Season 10! We have one final episode coming for Season 10 and this is one that you will not want to miss. We will be back in a few weeks and then will be taking a break as we prepare for Season 11 of NASPA's SA Voices from the Field!

Transition as Growth: Vaughn's Bold Leaps from Athletics to Student Services In the heartwarming and inspiring latest episode of NASPA's SA Voices From the Field podcast we welcomed Dr. Vaughn Calhoun, an esteemed academic leader, recounted his transformative journey from a student athlete with a career-ending injury to a beacon for change in higher education.  Engineering Identity Post-Injury Calhoun began by sharing the immediate consequences of his injury and the impact it had on his self-image and life trajectory. He emphasized the importance of identity reconstruction, an experience that propelled him from a series of unfulfilling jobs to the realization that he needed to embrace authentic studenthood—a leap he bravely took by pursuing a master's degree far from the world of sports he knew. Encounters That Changed His Path One of the most pivotal moments in Calhoun's life was an encounter with a stranger at Borders bookstore who saw in him a potential future as a university athletic director. This set him on a path to his doctorate, with a determined goal to understand and improve collegiate athletics from an administrative perspective. Mentorship and Its Lasting Impact Calhoun credited much of his success to the mentors he encountered, specifically highlighting an inviting university president who believed in him and guided his professional growth. This president showed Calhoun how to harness vulnerability and understanding, which in turn helped him carve out his niche in student affairs. The Student at Heart of the Leader With a robust background in public policy and the professoriate, Calhoun brought humility and an unwavering focus on student success to his administrative roles. His approach has always been about being receptive to student needs and advocating for their growth and success, a principle he implemented in his roles at various educational institutions. Innovation and Adaptation Furthermore, Calhoun discussed the rise of AI in education and the urgent need for educators to integrate new technologies. Adaptation, he stressed, is not only inevitable but essential for student support and success, highlighting the importance of ethical considerations in the digital age. Embracing the Journey Closing the episode, Calhoun imparted advice to student affairs professionals undergoing transitions, encouraging them to focus on the process and seek mentorship. He suggests that staying authentic, seeking challenging experiences, and forming a supportive network are keys to personal and professional development.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Welcome back to our next episode of student affairs voices from the field. Today, we sat down with doctor Vaughn Calhoun live and in person at the NASPA annual conference in March 2024, Seattle, Washington. Doctor Calhoun serves as the assistant vice president of student services and dean of Center For Academic Success at Seton Hall University in South Orange, New Jersey. He's been featured on a number of national platforms, including platforms, including Fortune Magazine, Education Edition, The Chronicle of Higher Ed, Inside Higher Ed, Huffington Post, NASPA Policy Briefs, and the Student Affairs Now podcast. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:54]: A thought leader and commentator on issues related to the changing landscape of higher ed, doctor Calhoun believes critical dialogue is necessary to equip students for the future of work, which means cultivating adaptive learners who can thrive in a world that is increasingly volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous. Doctor Calhoun's leadership career spans colleges and universities in the northeast from public, private, urban, suburban, small and large institutions with enrollments from 2,000 to more than 20,000 students. This experience includes public research universities, small private liberal arts, midsize Catholic universities to a predominantly online state university. Doctor Calhoun is a graduate of Rutgers University where he earned his bachelor's of science while also participating as a full scholarship student athlete on the football team. He also earned his master's of public policy and administration from Cal State Long Beach and a doctorate of education from Northeastern University in Boston, Massachusetts. Von, welcome to SA Voices. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:01:46]: Hello. How's it going? Thank you for having me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:48]: It's such a joy for me to be able to meet with guests in person because normally we're across time zones and on a Zoom box and things like that. So I really appreciate you taking time out of your conference to connect with us. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:01:59]: Absolutely. Happy to share anything and answer anything. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:02]: In our theme of transitions, when we got your story for casting, we just looked at it and went, we really wanna talk to you. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:02:07]: Okay. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:07]: Because your story, I think, is kind of unique in the world of student affairs, but also unique in that you've kind of been in a lot of different spaces before figuring out that your space, your professional purpose is here. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:02:20]: Absolutely. It took me a while. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:21]: So we know you're at Seton Hall now. We always like to know how you got to that seat, but we'd love for you to trace that journey through the beginning of sport. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:02:29]: Wow. No. That's just fantastic question. And, you know, my journey, it's something that I could not have mapped out. Yep. It it was something that really took shape while I was a student athlete. I played football at Rutgers. And in my 1st year at Rutgers, I blew my knee out. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:02:45]: And that was one of those things that you always think that happens to somebody else. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:50]: Yeah. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:02:50]: But when it happens to you, it's kinda like, oh my god. Like, it's happening. And not long after that, my head coach, he was fired. So these 2 big life moment events happened within 3 or 4 months of each other. And while I was at Rutgers, to compound that, at least at the time, I was steered into a major because it was athletic friendly. And that set me up on a course for not necessarily focusing as much as I probably should have on academics. And once I finished at Rutgers, I always tell people I graduated there, but I wasn't necessarily educated there. And that's a huge difference. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:03:22]: And it took me a while to kind of contextualize, well, what happened to me? And it wasn't until I read the book, The 40,000,000 Dollar Slave, The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of the Black Athlete, that really put it into context for me. And in particular, this book, it talks about the conveyor belt theory. Essentially, you have these institutions who go into black and brown neighborhoods and extract raw black or brown talent. And you're put on this figurative conveyor belt. And when you're on this belt, 1, you never know you're on the belt until you're off the belt. And the thing with the belt is there's always someone in front of you and someone behind you. Mhmm. And you move along this belt, and you get off the belt because you blow your knee out. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:03:58]: You aren't as good as they thought you were. And the consensus is next person up. And when the next person is up, you're essentially out. And when I read that, I was like, oh my god. I was a part of a system in which I didn't know until I read that. I was like, oh, that's what happened to me. And in that process, I was still trying to figure out, well, who am I now without sport? Because sport was something that I identified with since I was 6, 7 years old. And now here I am 21, 22 years old and it and it's over. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:04:25]: So now it's this journey of recreating myself. Like, who am I? And that led me on to going through a 1000000 different types of jobs. My first job out of college was shredding paper. Literally, shredding paper. I went back from my old school district and we were going from paper student records to electronic student records. This is 2004. And here I am, these boxes and boxes of student records. I'm literally scanning and shredding. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:04:50]: Wow. Scanning and shredding for 8 hours a day. I'm like, what the heck am I doing? And it gave me a lot of time to think in the process, and then that's when I decide, okay. I wanna go and try to be an authentic student. Go get my masters. It didn't really matter what it was. I just wanna explore this other piece of me that I didn't feel that I fully tapped into. So I ended up getting my or going to Cal State University Long Beach. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:05:13]: I'm originally from California. Going to Cal State Long Beach and I did my master's in public policy. And that's when I just started reading not just books on public policy, but just all types of books. Trying to figure out who am I in relation to the world. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:25]: So you invested in your education for yourself. Absolutely. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:05:28]: And during this process, there were so many things that I didn't realize about the world, about myself. And also in trying to find out who I am, I started taking on even more jobs. So I sold copy machines door to door in Los Angeles. And that was just something that I think everyone should try sales at least once. Just the experience of walking up to somebody and trying to sell something. Mhmm. And I remember I had this whole script. And my thing was walking into business parks and knocking on doors and saying, hey. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:05:55]: Can I talk to the person in charge of document management? And they're like, what's document management? And that was my end. Once you ask me a question, I can give you my spiel. So that was an experience. I even got put on a do not enter list because I was very persistent. And I kept going back and back and back trying to get the business. And then from there, I thought, okay. Maybe I wanna be an attorney. Maybe so then I took LSATs. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:06:15]: And then I said, well, maybe I might not wanna be an attorney. I might wanna be a police officer. I was driving down the 405 Freeway in Los Angeles, and there's this huge billboard that said LAPD hiring starting pay with a master's degree, $70,000. So I drove home, went online, put in my application, got called back for the written exam, and then got called back for the physical exam. And after I took my physical exam, it was about a 8 month period where it's just background check. In that time, I found me another job. I started working in insurance. And it was just this whirlwind of trying to figure myself out, but it wasn't until I had this one interesting interaction at Borders bookstore. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:06:50]: Remember Borders? It was like, Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:52]: oh, yeah. Mini Barnes and Noble. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:06:53]: Yeah. It was like it was like, you know, it was like Nike Reebok is Barnes and Noble's Borders. And I love Borders. But I walked in one day and this older gentleman looked like Bernie Sanders. Right? And he says, hey, did you play Rutgers? I'm like, mind you, I'm in Long Beach, California. How in the world does this guy know I played? And I barely even played. But I had a Rutgers Football t shirt on. He's, oh, okay. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:07:12]: He says, oh, it must have been a fantastic experience. Right? So, you know, older gentleman. So I sit down and have a conversation with them. And at the end of the conversation, you know, after I share my story with him, he goes, I can see it now. Vaughn Calhoun, athletic director, USC, Stanford, University of Texas. I'm like, oh, I've never even thought about myself in that way. Right? And he was the first gentleman, the first person who kinda put in my mind that I can maybe fix college athletics or do something about it because my experience as a student athlete wasn't the greatest one. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:42]: He was a total stranger. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:07:43]: Absolutely. Total stranger. Did did know him, but we spent at least an hour with each other. And subsequently, we kept talking, kept meeting with each other and he even introduced me to his network who was a sitting athletic director in Los Angeles. So he said, hey, I want you to meet my buddy. I'm like, okay. So now there's this whole world of college athletics on the administration side that I didn't know exist. Well, I knew it existed, but I didn't know, like, that was a path that I could take. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:08:06]: So now this is 2,008. I just got married and if you recall, we had the financial meltdown and crisis in the world was just going in bad places. And I decided in that period of time that I'm gonna leave my job and move across the country to pursue my doctoral degree. And everyone thought I was nuts. Even my parents, like, what are you doing? You're leaving because at the time, I was working at for a local government agency making, you know, pretty decent money. And I said, you know what? The money at that time money's important, but it wasn't important. Right? I said, this is the thing that I wanna do because I said, I wanna understand how a college works and where does athletics fit within an institution of higher education so I can be an athletic director and fix it. And then here I am moving to Boston. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:08:49]: Literally, set my car, My wife and I are now newlyweds in Boston. And I remember as I'm going through this transition, I get to my last year of my doctoral program, and my dean and I get very friendly. And he says to me, listen, Vaughn. I know what you're trying to do. You wanna fix college athletics, but the way that you feel about it, 1, are they gonna let you in? And 2, if they do let you in, do you have to uphold the system in which you don't believe in? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:09:14]: I was like, oh, dang. Those are some great questions. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:16]: That's a hard hard dissonance to deal with. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:09:18]: And I was like, what do I do? He said, well, I have door number 2. I said, well, what's door number 2? He said, you can teach. I said, who the heck am I gonna teach? And he said, listen, because my dissertation was on student athletes who were academically clustered, steered into a major because it was athletic friendly. It was a qualitative research study looking at the lived experience of student athletes who were clustered. So he says, I want you to come into my undergraduate class and just give a presentation on it. Right? So I said, okay. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:09:42]: So I did it once, did it twice, and then he says, do you feel comfortable with that now? I said, yeah. I feel pretty good because the students were very engaging. I was like, oh, this this is teaching, Oh, I can do this. He says, okay. Now I want you to start applying to faculty jobs. I was like, oh. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:53]: Oh, he's pathwaying you. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:09:54]: I was like, oh, you we didn't say I was like and he said just start applying. So I was like, alright. Let me start applying. So here I am, and now I'm sitting in these faculty interviews. And, hate to say this, even when I was in college, I didn't read my first book until spring semester senior year, cover to cover. So now here I am in these faculty interviews talking about my academic and teaching philosophies and all these things. And, you know, not in my distant past, I was that student who was just kind of out there and and not being a real student. Right? So I get a callback and says, you're hired. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:10:27]: I was like, oh, wow. Right? And that was just, you know, my pathway into higher ed working for a business department, at a small private liberal arts outside of Boston. And as I'm going through this, it really just, one, changed the way that I just thought about just myself in this phase of just recreation that I could create a new identity outside of just sports. But interestingly, I had a buddy who was moving from Maryland up to Boston at this one particular college. And I've heard of it. I drove past it every day. I didn't know much about it. And this college had a black male sitting college president. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:11:03]: I was like, that's pretty awesome. You don't really see that in particular within, like, Massachusetts. Mhmm. So I just Google searched him and he had these interviews and articles. So he's a really dynamic individual. So literally, on a Saturday morning, pulled my phone out, saw he had a Twitter, I tweeted at him. I was like, hey, you inspire me. And a few minutes later, he tweeted back. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:11:24]: He was like, thanks. So like, oh, you answered your old tweets. This is awesome. So I said, hey. Can I so now now I was like, okay? He I got him engaged. So I said, this is my opportunity. So I said, okay. I tweeted again, can I have the informational interview? Right? And I heard nothing. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:11:37]: I was like, oh, okay. You know, people are busy Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:39]: you know. Shot. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:11:40]: Right? Yeah. I'm gonna shoot You know, either 1 or 2 things can happen. You make it or you miss it. Yeah. But 2 weeks later, I get an email from his executive assistant that says, you know, the president wants to meet you. I was like, oh, this is awesome. So now this is August 2015. So I go sit in the president's office. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:11:56]: We were there for 3 hours literally. Wow. Just talking about his career, how he did what he did, why he did it, talked about myself, what I wanna do, what I think I wanna do. And in that meeting, he said to me, you can be a college president. I was like, woah. Again, right, just having these individuals, I couldn't plan for that. Right? So a few months later or within this interim period, we would text and talk. He introduced me to his network, and my job's August 20 15. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:12:21]: So a few months later, December 2015 and again, we never talked about jobs. Just philosophy about life and stuff. And he says, I wanna offer you a job. I want you to work for me. I was like, oh, okay. I got a job over here, but I like what you're saying just in terms of just his energy and enthusiasm. So I went and worked for this guy, and he would literally bring me into meetings I had no business being in. He hired me as an an assistant professor, which eventually I I was elevated to the chair of the chair of the department sitting as a faculty chair. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:12:51]: But I would go into these executive cabinet meetings and literally just sit on the wall with, you know, all the other VPs and they're all kinda looking at me, like, why is this guy here? And after every meeting, we would just have conversation about, okay, this is what's happening. This is why I said this, this, that, and the third. And, you know, this just happened, you know, over the next few years. And in this period of time, you know, he would bring me, like, literally into his, like, his personal life. Right? You know, he would bring me into his home with my wife and my son, you know, and and talk with his family, his wife, his kids. It it just became this this really awesome dynamic. And one day I just asked him, like, why are you doing this? Because he was just so generous. And he said, because someone did it for me. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:13:30]: I just asked that you do this for somebody else. I was like, I got you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:33]: Paying it forward in mentorship. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:13:35]: Absolutely. Right? So, and one of the things he said, by you working for me you're gonna know the questions to ask. I was like, I don't know what that means. So as I'm going up from my first AVP position, I was able during the interview to really diagnose and break down some of the nuances and ask these very specific questions. And I ended up getting the job, and I remember calling him after the final interview. He was like, I understand what you mean. I knew the questions to ask. Right? And I think those questions help separate me in terms of just how I looked at the position. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:14:06]: But, you know, it was just through these events and people, I couldn't have planned this out. And when I talk about this transition, it's just a lot of constant movement but being open to that movement. Being open to being vulnerable. Being open to saying, okay. I don't know what this is, but I wanna explore it. And that's one of the things that I share with a lot of my mentees. It's put yourself out there. Ask those questions because if you don't ask, you're not gonna know. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:14:29]: So I think these are the these things that we don't often talk about in particular, leaning into your network, finding those mentors. And I think mentorship becomes very cliche, like, find a mentor, have this mentor, but, no, really build those authentic relationships. And that has helped me tremendously. I couldn't be in this position without those individuals or it would have took me much much longer to sit in the seat at Seton Hall. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:50]: That is an extraordinary journey from being a d one football player to weaving your way through to this dean of students path now. Do you still see yourself on that pathway to a college presidency? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:15:02]: I aspire to higher leadership and I know that sometimes we're in such a hurry to get there. But in getting there, you're learning so many lessons. Even in in these past few years, I've learned so many lessons just about myself, about how to manage and lead people. Mhmm. So I definitely see myself on that trajectory and I definitely wanna get there. But one thing someone told me is like don't rush the process. Right? The process is the process. You know, you don't wanna end up getting there and not being ready for it. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:15:31]: So I'm very mindful of that and and making sure that I'm putting myself in positions to sit on different committees, to be a part of conversation that make me a little uncomfortable. Like, oh, I don't know too much about the nuances of finance and budgeting, but let me sit there with it. And I think if I continue doing these things, doing good work, opportunities will present itself. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:49]: You've had a nontraditional education path into student affairs itself. How did you get yourself up to speed with all of the student affairs literature and practice knowing you come from that MPP background, that faculty end. And student affairs for those of us who've kind of been in the field a while, I think there's generally a point of frustration when we see someone who's come from a pathway that didn't include that student development foundation, and then all of a sudden we're being led by this person. So how did you come from that place of humility while still bringing your expertise that you definitely had in the public policy space? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:16:20]: Yeah. I think one thing for me is I know that I don't know, and I'm not afraid to tell folks that I don't know that I need your help. And I think when you lead with that, folks typically look at that as a point of humility. I'm not gonna say I know more than you. Because truth is, you know, any new job that you walk into, folks who are there know more than you about that particular institution. So earlier in my career, part of what I did was I was an assistant athletic director for 3 and a half, 4 years at a small private liberal arts and reported up to the dean of students and we were housed within student affairs. So I was always a part of those a lot of my job was around the student success on the athletic side, but it was for a division 3 institution. Mhmm. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:17:05]: So the dynamics are a little bit different than division 1 where the emphasis on division 3 is the whole student. And division 1 does that, but I think more so like division 3, it is just part of the culture and fabric of we know that. More times than not, no one's turning pro. That's not what our goal is. We're not trying to generate revenue in that sense. And then for me, I got into this because I was driven by my own negative experience. Mhmm. So student success and making sure that students are always at the top of mind is something that I always talk about and that I always lead with. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:17:36]: So when people hear my story and when when people understand why I'm doing what I'm doing, knowing that I have this background that is a little unique, but it's always toward that north star of how are we helping our students. And I think once that gets conveyed and understood, it helps galvanize people. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:51]: How did that student athlete experience inform how you practice in student affairs now? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:17:56]: Being a student athlete, at least at the time, I felt that I wasn't heard, wasn't necessarily valued. So anytime I see a student engage with a student, I wanna make sure that they're heard, that they're validated. Because when in particular, if a student reaches my office, usually something didn't go right at some point along the way. Right? And whatever their challenges are is the most important thing to them in that moment. And me being a former just student athlete knowing that I wish I had an advocate, I wish I had someone who could really just stand up for me. I take that mindset. And even when I get these parent calls, knowing that I wish that my parents could have engaged with somebody and someone would have been receptive. So always taking that to heart and make sure that I never forget that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:38]: You've navigated a lot of change very successfully. Change and the mindset that you bring and kind of your philosophy around how you make transitions? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:18:55]: Yeah. You know, change is the really only constant and being open to it. Because I think so many times, generally speaking, folks are opposed to change because you always ask yourself, what does this mean for me? What am I gonna lose versus, well, what could I gain? And I always took the perspective of there are some things that I don't know that I know that I need to experience these things in order to become a better person and to elevate in my career. So if I would just sit back and what's comfortable, I'm not gonna grow. And interestingly, my son, he's 9 years old. And that's one thing that I really try to challenge him with. Right now he's doing Taekwondo and he's on the sparring team. And it can be pretty tough. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:19:30]: He has a really old school hard nose instructor. And my son always talks about, oh, this is getting tough. It's getting tough. I said, no. The tough part means that this is your growth phase. These are when the moments of you're gonna question yourself, but what are you gonna do in those moments? Are you gonna sit back or are you gonna meet the challenges? And that's something as a former student athlete, we couldn't just sit back and be comfortable. Because if we sit back and be comfortable, there's someone else that's working when we're not working. So constantly trying to say, how can we get better? How can we get that edge? Edge? And I take that with changes. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:20:01]: Things are moving. Right? And if I don't try to keep up with the change or get ahead of the change, we're going to be stunted in some way. And at the end of the day, the students will suffer for it. And I really think about this right, so when we think about AI, and I think one of the first reactions a year or so ago was this is the worst thing in the world. It's going to crush teaching. It's gonna crush learning. In some regards, it might to a certain extent, but also what are the opportunities of helping individuals? What are the opportunities in which we can streamline? And because students are going to enter a world that's AI driven, if we just turn our heads to that and pretend that it doesn't exist, we're doing them a disservice. Mhmm. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:20:36]: So how can we as a college community, staff, and faculty, educate ourselves so we can best educate our students and talk about it through through the lens of ethics. Talk about it through the lens of how these new technologies, though it could be different and scary, are gonna be the things that they're gonna need to be successful. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:52]: Well, and also AI is just not ChatGPT alone. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:20:56]: Absolutely. And I think Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:56]: that's been kind of the narrative in higher ed, that ChatGPT is the end of academic integrity. But there are also institutions that are using it really well for, like, auto replies when students need information Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:21:06]: That's right. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:07]: At 2 in the morning. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:21:07]: That's right. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:08]: Or, you know, texting services or or whatever. So there's lots of cool opportunities, but then there's also ethical issues around copyrights and particularly with arts. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:21:17]: Correct. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:17]: Things like that, so but I also came aware recently of an AI repository that's cataloging, like, millions of research papers, which will be an incredible resource for doctoral students of the future, which which I wish I had access to when I was doing my doctorate. So it'll make the lit review process faster in some ways, but I think also will start to discourage people from reading whole articles. I mean, let's be honest, we're always skimmers anyway, but but I think that will be a fascinating evolution too. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:21:41]: Absolutely. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:42]: Do you have any advice for student affairs professionals that are in their own space of transition right now? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:21:46]: I think for anyone in the space of transition, knowing that it's gonna be difficult to a certain extent, but also knowing that if you just stayed where you're at, can you really grow? And sometimes you have to go out and put yourself in those vulnerable positions. As simple as asking for a mentor. Asking someone, will you mentor me? And again, for me, it's they can either say 1 or 2 things. They can say yes, or they can say no, or they don't respond. But what I think, you know, going through transition just knowing, focusing on the process and not the outcome and knowing that the journey will be the journey, whatever that journey, whatever that process is, and just focus on doing good work, Focus on being as authentic as you can, and focus on surrounding yourself with individuals who will speak life and encourage you. And also make sure you have those individuals who tell you the truth because we don't always just want cheerleaders around. We want those individuals say, hey. Can I give you some constructive criticism or some critiques? And that's where you can learn the most so you don't have as many gaps as you would if you didn't have those individuals there. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:41]: And if you're able to hear that when it's given. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:22:43]: Yes. Right. You gotta be open to that. Because some people, you know, the the the Eagles can be very fragile, but you have to be able to really take that to say, okay. You know, they're saying this because they wanna help me, not hurt me in most cases. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:54]: Mhmm. I think that can be quite dependent on the, the provider of that advice. Absolutely. Solicited or unsolicited. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:22:59]: And if you don't ask to to solicit something from somebody, why would you listen to someone that you wouldn't solicit information from? So for me, it's making sure that you have good people around you who really care for your best interest. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:10]: Is there anything that you did in a transition that you look back and say, wow, I wish I would've done that a little differently? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:23:15]: I think it's always hard to gauge what you're gonna walk into. And you have an idea of what a situation is, but you never know what it's going to be until you actually get there. So for me, it's really just ground myself in knowing who I am and knowing my strengths as well as knowing where my gaps are and just being just just very honest with myself about that. And that can be hard for folks. Right? Every time, you know, folks say, you know, I I know all these things and I can do this. And you wanna be that go getter, but also at the same time, just just knowing that constantly learn as much as you can. And learning people, learning programs, and learning processes. Like, those like my 3 p's. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:23:51]: I wish I would've known that about 10 years ago, but every institution, there's people, there's programs, there's processes. Learn those as quickly as you can. Mhmm. And knowing that the process, again, will be the process. And have a lot of those informal conversations as much as you can and just getting to really know individuals as individuals. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:09]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:15]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a lot of things happening in NASPA. There's a brand new Leadership Exchange Magazine that recently came out for spring 2024. And if you've never read the Leadership Exchange, you definitely should. The Leadership Exchange is the magazine for all of our chief student affairs officers that NASPA puts out a number of times throughout the year. And this Springs Leadership Exchange Magazine is focused around preserving campus discourse. Inside of this magazine, you're going to see some amazing articles throughout the entire magazine that do talk about campus discourse and what you can do on your own campus to be able to protect free speech on your campus. There are some articles about visibility and promoting Afro Latinx students, understanding professional certification, and how you can elevate your own division through professional certification, and also talking about some of the stories of student affairs and also talking about some of the stories within student affairs. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:14]: These magazines are not just written for vice presidents for student affairs. So don't let that turn you away from learning, from reading this and taking out of it some amazing kernels of knowledge. You can access this on the NASPA website. Go to the NASPA website, click on public publications, and you'll see the Leadership Exchange is one of the publications that is available to you as a member. Also, there's a few other NASPA books that I wanted to share with you that you may find very helpful on your own campuses and in the work that you do. 1st and foremost is a book called Small and Mighty Student Affairs at Small Colleges and Universities. This book explores critical opportunities and challenges at higher education institutions with fewer than 5,000 students. Written by a diverse group of seasoned campus leaders, written by a diverse group of seasoned campus leaders, this comprehensive text covers a range of topics relevant to higher education and student affairs while providing detailed insights and action to take for and in support of to take for in support of and alongside students at small colleges and universities. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:20]: Thriving in the small college culture requires flexibility, collaboration, and the ability to shift rapidly within the changing environment of higher education. Small and Mighty offers thoughtful strategies and insights to help student affairs professionals identify innovative solutions, innovative solutions to some of the most pressing issues facing small colleges and universities today. This book was written by Carol Livingston, Krista Porter, and Thomas Shandley and it is a amazing book for anyone working at a small college or university. And I highly encourage you to pick up a copy today. Now this season we've been talking about transitions and one of the big transitions that many student affairs professionals will go through in their career is supervising others. Another book that is available is called Supervised Practice Connecting Professional Competency Areas to Professional Development and Student Affairs. Supervised practice has become a hallmark of how the field of higher education and student affairs prepares future professionals. This book explores how to create the conditions necessary for supervised practice and the graduate academic curriculum to be a seamless learning experience. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:28]: Becoming a supervisor is a hallmark of how the field of higher education and student affairs prepares future professionals. This book explores how to create affairs prepares future professionals. This book explores how to create the conditions necessary for supervised practice and the graduate academic curriculum to be a seamless learning experience. With a focus on the ACPA and NASPA professional competency areas as the bedrock for enhancing proficiency in the field. This book is designed to introduce the competency areas as they relate to supervised practice in graduate preparation programs. Chapters examine how to design experiences for students in the workplace that align with the ACPA and NASPA professional competency areas, create condition for graduate students to understand the application of theory within the workplace, establish an environment that promotes an understanding of the supervisory role as it relates to socializing and retaining new professionals in student affairs, create learning partnerships that focus on the intersection of individual development and the acquisition of knowledge and skills for administrative practice, develop professional philosophy of practice in the digital age, and assess the professional competency areas within the graduate the graduate practicum and employee experience to ensure learning and development. If you supervise graduate students or want to supervise graduate students in the future as they prepare to be professionals in the field, a brand new book called Supervised Practice Connecting Professional Competency Areas to Professional Development and Student Affairs is definitely a book you wanna pick up. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:00]: So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, Hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:22]: Chris, thank you so much for keeping us informed on going on in and around NASPA. And, Vaughn, we have now reached our lightning round. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:30:28]: Awesome. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:29]: I have 7 questions for you in 90 seconds. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:30:32]: Oh, alright. I'll do I'll do my best. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:34]: Bring out your competitive story. Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:30:41]: Oh, my god. Oh, jeez. It would be something with, my favorite artist. One of my favorite artist is Jay z. I don't know what, but something within his catalog. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:50]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:30:53]: I wanted to be a San Francisco 49er. I wanna be just like Jerry Rice. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:58]: Number 3. Who's your most influential professional mentor? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:31:00]: Oh, that would be Dr. Robert Johnson, the current president of Western New England University. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:06]: Number 4. Your essential student affairs read. Anything that deals with student success. Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:31:14]: Oh, Ballers with Dwayne Rock Johnson. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:17]: Number 6, the podcast you spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:31:21]: Steven Bartlett, The Diaries of a CEO. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:23]: And finally, number 7. Any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:31:27]: Absolutely. I love to shout out my wife who's always been there for me, who's been a constant truth teller, but in a very loving way. And I'll also shout out my son. He's 9 years old. He keeps me young, and he keeps me on my toes as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:40]: Von, it's been just a joy to get to know you today. I'm very grateful that you took some time out of your conference to speak with us here on SA Voices. And if others would like to speak with you after the show, how can they find you? Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:31:50]: They can find me on LinkedIn, Vaughn Calhoun, or they can find me at my email, [email protected]. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:58]: Thank you so much for sharing your voice and your story with us today. Dr. Vaughn Calhoun [00:32:01]: Thank you for having me. I appreciate you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:05]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us atsa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:46]: This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Welcome to NASPA's SA Voices From the Field Podcast. This week we had an insightful conversation from our podcast with Dr. Stacey Malaret, a seasoned authority in student affairs, recorded at the NASPA annual conference in Seattle.  Transitioning Roles: Administrator to Educator During the episode, Dr. Malaret, who has worked in student development since 1999 and serves as the Director for the Lead Scholars Academy at UCF, shared her insights on balancing administrative duties with academic responsibilities. She teaches leadership studies and serves on dissertation committees, embodying the blend of practitioner and scholar. Generational Shifts in Leadership Dr. Malaret highlighted the generational changes from millennials to Gen Z, stressing the unique leadership development needed for today's diverse student populations. UCF's Lead Scholars Academy and U-LEAD programs are testament to her progressive and adaptive methods, which now include a virtual leadership academy initiated eight years ago. The Online Learning Curve Our discussion also shed light on the augmented reality of higher education - online learning. Dr. Malaret emphasized the myth of online courses being 'easier', arguing that self-motivation is key to success in a digital classroom. While the asynchronous nature of online courses provides flexibility, it also demands a greater level of self-drive and discipline from students. Bridging Academic and Student Affairs A significant portion of our dialogue revolved around understanding the interplay between academic and student affairs. As a faculty member, Dr. Malaret brings a unique perspective to student success, bridging curricular and co-curricular experiences. Her involvement at both ends of the educational spectrum allows her to witness firsthand the impact of out-of-class experiences on academic success. Advice for Aspiring Educators For those aspiring to transition into teaching, Dr. Malaret suggested volunteering as a teaching assistant or adjunct professor to gain valuable classroom experience. She advised that understanding the academic calendar and significant dates can help student affairs professionals to be more empathetic and supportive of students during stressful times like finals and midterms. The Balancing Act Dr. Malaret affirmsedthat engaging in the classroom will enrich the abilities of student affairs professionals, influencing workshops, presentations, and even student interactions. By wearing multiple hats and thriving in each, Dr. Malaret serves as an inspirational figure for those navigating the complex landscape of student affairs and higher education.    TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today, we welcome our next guest who we were able to sit down with at the NASPA annual conference in Seattle, Washington this March 2024. Welcome to doctor Stacey Mallaret, originally from Orlando, Florida, and who attended the University of Southern Mississippi for her bachelor of arts degree in psychology. She then graduated in 1998 from the University of Central Florida with the master of arts in student personnel, and in 2007 with her in educational leadership. She's worked in the student affairs development field since 1999, and currently serves as the director for the Lead Scholars Academy at UCF. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:53]: She teaches educational leadership, strategies for success and leadership studies classes, in addition to chairing and serving on dissertation committees. Alright. Stacey, welcome to essay voices. Thank you. And we are recording live at the NASPA annual conference today. We're in a meeting room right now. So for our listeners, there's audio quality differences that you're noticing. It's we're really live in person, and so it's it's not a frequent thing that I get to interview frequent thing that I get to interview guests in person, so this is a really big treat for me as well. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:01:17]: Oh, me too. Thank you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:18]: And you're at the University of Central Florida, and you have multiple hats, both as an administrator and as a faculty member. So we're gonna be talking today mostly about your transition between those two spaces and how those kind of supplement your work and understanding as a practitioner. Great. But we love to always start by asking our guests, how did you find your way into your current seat? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:01:39]: Well, back in the 1900, as my children would say, I was a really involved student leader. My father used to say I majored in Delta Zeta because that's all I talked about. Didn't really talk about my classes. And I think I had the traditional tap on the shoulder saying, hey. Have you heard about student affairs type of conversation? And I did my research pre Internet, you know, to try to find, you know, different institutions. And I ended up going to, actually, University of Central Florida for my master's. I'm from Orlando originally. Got an assistantship, worked in student activities, got my first job in student activities. And also, during my grad program, had a practicum teaching a SLS course as a strategies and learning success course at a, say, college with shout out to Dana Gentlemen, who's a good colleague that I've known for a long time now, and Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:32]: so shout out to Dana Genten, who's a good colleague that I've known for a long time now. And so whenever I meet someone from UCF, I always think of her.  Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:42]: Yes. I know Dana very well. Please tell her I said hi. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:02:43]: I will. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:43]: Back to your campus. So talk first a little bit about your day job. What is it that you're doing in the student affairs world mostly? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:02:49]: So I am a director of our leadership programs area. It's called the LEAD Scholars Academy. It's an academic and co curricular leadership development program for incoming 1st year students, and then we also have a program for upper class students, which we call U LEAD. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:02]: It's been an interesting generational transition time right now between what we thought millennials needed in leadership space to now what we're seeing Gen Z is needing and they're very different things. What are you doing to adapt your practice to the generational mindset that we're seeing now? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:03:18]: Well, one thing that we started probably about 8 years ago is a virtual leo Leadership Academy. It has 8 different modules on various leadership topics that any student with a UCF ID can log in and do at their leisure. We did that because we found that students wanted that virtual space as available to them. Whether or not they take advantage of it is another question. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:40]: Of course. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:03:41]: But they wanted to have that. And I've seen different colleagues who have used that for training their own student leaders. So if maybe they couldn't take a leadership class, this was kind of the next best thing that they could say, okay. Well, before you become a peer mentor with us or a resident assistant or orientation leader or what have you. Take this virtual leadership academy so you get the basics of what leadership is as part of their training process. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:04]: And you said that was developed 8 years ago. Correct. So you were doing virtual online learning before it was cool? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:04:09]: We were ahead of the curve. Yes. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:12]: So as you're looking ahead, how has that curriculum evolved over time? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:04:16]: Well, we have adopted the social change model as our basis for leadership development, but then we've supplemented throughout the years with other leadership theories, and we started doing strengths quests this past year. So we've been adding to the social change model as our base what we think would be good for students to learn and know about themselves and others. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:40]: For those who aren't familiar with the social change model, can you give us a a 30 second CliffsNotes? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:04:45]: Sure. So Susan Komaviz is one of the authors of the social change model, and it focuses on individual values, group values, and societal values, and how to make the world a better place. So learning about yourself, learning how to work with others, and learning how to take that knowledge and help with your community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:02]: It's a unique leadership model because it's one of the few that was co developed in community with other leaders as opposed to one person being, like, here's my idea of leadership. So they kind of modeled their own leadership values and theory by creating it in their way. So if you've not read The Social Change Model, I would encourage you to do so. And, also, it's one of those ones that has a beautiful abbreviation. They always talk about the 7 c's and the 3 buckets. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:05:24]: And students really resonate with it because they can say, oh, well, I focus on this c, or I focus on, you know, collaboration or consciousness of self. I learned in strengths quest. I learned this about myself, and I'm able to relate it to a model. So it makes them feel a little bit more connected with our curriculum. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:42]: And one of my favorite things about the 7 c's model too is that you can really focus kind of in a module based form on each of the c's as opposed to, kind of looking at this long nebulous trajectory of leadership. You can really, really kind of narrow in on common purpose or civility Contribution. Yeah. Those types of things. So there's a lot of amazing institutions doing good work with Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:06:03]: Yeah. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:03]: This framework right now. I actually just had a conversation this morning in the Global, Division Leadership Board with a good colleague from South Africa who was saying, oh my gosh, we're using the social change model at our universities at Stellenbosch in South Africa, and I also see us talking about it here in the US. So that one's really permeating right now. And then your side hustle quote unquote is working as a faculty member. What are you doing in that space? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:06:29]: So I teach a Strategies for Success course for incoming freshmen, and I also teach in the higher ed program as well at our institution. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:37]: And I believe you're also advising doctoral Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:06:47]: their their dissertation chair, and then I also serve on committees as well. And that's a great way to help with the highest level students going into this field or just wanting to further their education. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:59]: You're really spanning the corners of the Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:07:01]: Freshman to doctorate. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:02]: Yes. Freshman to doctorate from Orlando to Seattle. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:07:06]: Right. And I and I actually were in Seattle, and I took a walk yesterday around town, and I passed by the City University of Seattle campus. I took a picture. I was like, oh, maybe I should go and get my faculty ID. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:16]: Did you get it? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:07:17]: No. It was Sunday, so I didn't. But I was like, maybe I should today. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:20]: I think that's a be a fun souvenir from Yeah. Your trip to Seattle. And in thinking about what you're seeing in evolution and transition of the research right now, I know we went through a period of time where everyone was really intense about wanting to research the impacts of the pandemic. And I think we're starting to see that soften a little bit on the research and and now. What are you seeing that doctoral students are most interested in studying in the present? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:07:42]: Well, I have a lot of students who are studying diverse components of higher education. So, for example, the black woman's experience in the faculty world. Or I have one who's focusing on humor and how practitioners need humor in order just to get through the day. And so how do they cope with their day to day job? So it's very diverse. I don't have a really one area that students are picking up. It really depends on their individual interest. I Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:19]: education faculty space. Mhmm. Because I think in our academy, you know, that we do have a knowledge community here in NASPA called Student Affairs Partnering with Academic Affairs, but those who are not insiders to higher ed don't necessarily understand the level of chasm that can exist between administration side and faculty side. So Yeah. I'd love to hear about how you transition your mindset between both roles, and then also kind of bring those pieces together for your colleagues that are in either space. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:08:45]: Well, first, in order to kinda get into the space, you need experience to get the experience, which is kind of the mantra in student affairs. And so if we have graduate students listening, I would say volunteer to serve as a graduate teaching assistant for free with a faculty member, whether it's a freshman seminar course or a leadership course or something that is more aligned with the student affairs area. Freshman seminar strategies for success, things like that are college one zero one courses are typically the one that has the biggest comparison to student affairs and biggest likeliness to have some topics that are in both areas. So I would say volunteer. Even if you're a practitioner, see if you could volunteer. Mhmm. You know, because that's how I got my first side hustle gig when I was working in student activities. I did that one GTA experience for a practicum and it was on my resume and they needed an adjunct for a freshman seminar course. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:09:38]: And they said, Stacey, you have experience. You could do this. And I kinda faked it till I made it. I was like, sure. I could do this. And just kind of struggled along and had mentors who were faculty members, like, you know, asked them, can you share your lesson plans? Can you give what you do? And I think that's really important the first time you teach is find someone who's taught it before to help you along. And so I think that there is a great relationship between teaching those types of courses and being a practitioner because you're able to see the students in a different mindset. Mhmm. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:10:08]: You can read their reflections that they may have spoken to you individually about how they're doing or about their academic advising. So there's a great relationship between student success coaching, academic advising, and teaching a freshman seminar type class. Because in my class, I have them talk about what they're taking next semester, Have them talk about what their major is, what they wanna do when they graduate. And those are all conversations that practitioners have normally with students. It's just in a more academic context, and you're grading them. You wouldn't grade them talking to them. Right. But you'd be grading them about their ability to reflect, and I think it's a great way to get to know the students in a different lens. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:48]: I am curious if you have any advice for practitioners who are looking to teach their first course, but do need to be or deserve to be compensated for that first course because it's a great privilege to be able to volunteer one's time for that type of thing. And in student affairs especially, I think we give away our time for free a lot. Yes. And so how would you kind of take that first step inside of that world if you do want to or need to be paid for that work? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:11:11]: Well, I would first talk to whoever the department chair is and say what is the compensation for adjuncts. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:16]: Mhmm. Which we know is not great. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:11:18]: Yeah. It could range anywhere from 1,000 to 5 $1,000, I've seen. And, you know, try to get your foot in the door and get one of those classes, and then you can expand to other universities. It doesn't have to be the one that you work at. You can work for a community college or an online university. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:34]: Mhmm. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:11:35]: Sometimes they would require additional credentials, especially if you're teaching online to learn how to work the learning management system and develop modules online. I think a lot of faculty ask me for my program. They're like, oh, I can teach online. And I'm like, it's not that easy. No. You know, you have to learn how to teach online before you can teach online. And I think a lot of people are unaware of that back end work. And so if there's a way that you can do that ahead of time, get that credential, talk to your faculty center for teaching and learning or whatever it may be called your institution and ask, how do I get credentialed to teach online? If you have that already, you're a much more viable candidate to teach. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:16]: We're talking about micro credentials. We're not talking about Right. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:19]: No. No. No. Going back for another degree. No. No. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:12:21]: It would be probably an online course that you would take, a zero credit online course. Just to learn how to navigate your learning management system back end and how to engage students in an online format, things like that. And then use that to your advantage when you're asking about teaching and you might be chosen over others for that paid work. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:39]: And pedagogy is so different in online teaching versus kind of that live in person instruction. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:12:44]: Right. Learning how to be interactive with discussion boards because you're not gonna have that discussion. I do a live session every week on the chapter, and I teach the chapter. Whether or not students show up for that is a different thing, but I record them and I post them. And I think even if they don't watch them, I think students, knowing that they can, makes them feel more connected to the class, or at least I like to think so. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:07]: Well, online learning, I also feel like is the the wave of how we create access in higher education. Because of that asynchronous modeling, it allows people who have full time jobs or parenting schedules or other caregiver schedules or just unpredictable hours at their work to be able to engage in their course more effectively. I took a couple of online courses in my doctoral program, and it was fascinating how much I could learn from others through discussion boards, which was not something that I expected going into the process. Right. And then really felt by the time we got to meeting in person that I I kind of knew people and how they thought about things even though we had never had a live synchronous conversation. It's an interesting process. So when you are working with students in that online space, talk about the transition that you're seeing in their expectations for a class versus how they end up engaging. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:13:54]: I think sometimes students think that online classes are going to be easier. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:59]: They're so much harder than in person. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:14:01]: They they just think, oh, I'll just take it online, and I think that the motivation in online classes is tougher because you're not having that professor in front of you saying, this is due on Friday. Mhmm. You have to have the ability to go to the calendar and to log in to we use Canvas on a daily basis and see what's on your to do list. And have that self motivation to actually work on those assignments. So I think that's the toughest thing is, you know, I have more students fail in the online course sections than in the face to face course sections because I think that motivation is something that can't be taught and some students think that they're taking the easy way out by taking the online section. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:44]: And it's a much more self intrinsically motivated space. Right. Because oftentimes in the in person space it's a lot of work to get yourself to the class, but once you're in the class, it's easier to turn your brain on because you're in a focused time. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:14:55]: Right. And you're surrounded by like minded students, hopefully, who are wanting to do well, and when you surround yourself with others who want to do well, you rise to the occasion. Whereas in an asynchronous space, you're alone, unless you are really engaging in those discussion boards. But even if you are, sometimes it's harder to feel that sense of urgency to do well in the class when you don't see others also. What do Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:20]: you want student affairs practitioners to know, who haven't been in the classroom side about what we should be paying attention to that maybe we're not seeing in our day to day interactions with students. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:15:30]: Well, I think it's really important to know what's going on in the academic side of the house. Student affairs sometimes are siloed and don't think about student credit hour dollar generation or faculty policies or withdraw dates and things like that because they are focusing on the out of class experience. But students don't come typically to a university because of the out of class experiences. They're going because they have their major or they really like the academic rigor or they are is about the academics that they're drawn to because as we all know, they're a student leader, not a leader student. Mhmm. So academics you know, more about what's going on and the timelines, you should know when midterms are because you're going to be able to see a difference in your student. And you'll know when finals are because you might need to be more lenient with what the expectations are for your student leaders that week. So I think by being in the classroom, you're in tune with that schedule and what students are going through, and also are able to help support your students more because of your awareness. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:41]: What about in the inverse? What do you think that faculty are missing about the student affairs world, and how are you bringing that message in the other direction? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:16:48]: Yeah. I don't think faculty realize how important it is for students to be involved to develop those soft skills, which are so important in the real world regardless of what career path a student will go into. I'd like to tell students that your resume will get you the job, but your leadership skills get you the promotion. So sometimes faculty forget about those leadership skills and how important it is to be involved as a student leader so that you can gain those skills. So that when they are in the field that you are teaching in, they can rise and become stronger advocates for your field and to rise in different positions of the chain. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:26]: Any final thoughts for our listeners on the transitions between the faculty seat and the student affairs practitioner seat? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:17:34]: I would say teaching is a lot of fun. It really helps you think about the student experience in a different lens, and it's gonna make you a better practitioner practitioner if you're able to teach in the classroom because you're going to first learn about yourself and how to how to talk to students, how to interact with students, and that's going to translate into your practitioner role when you're doing workshops and presentations and even interviewing. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:00]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:06]: Thanks so much, Joe. Great to be back in the NASPA world. And recently, there has been some transformative news about the future of the Center For First Generation Student Success that I wanted to share with all of you today. Since its founding in 2017 as a joint initiative between NASPA and the Souter Foundation, the center has enjoyed great success built upon the foundation set by Eric and Deb Suter and their success with the original First Scholars model. The center has far surpassed NASPA's original goals. Now with 27 staff members, the center offers a wide array of programmatic offerings, national events, informative research, and of course, a robust and growing network of partners at 349 institutions representing 49 states and the District of Columbia. When you combine that with the professional development, research, data, networking, advocacy, and all the other resources provided by the center, and you can easily see why it's become the premier organization in the field of 1st generation student success. The success has prompted the center to take the next step in its evolution. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:15]: The Center For First Generation Student Success is becoming its own 501c3 organization. The vision and goals since inception was for NASPA to incubate the center until it was established as a leader in the field. While it will technically be a separate organization, the center will remain strategic partners with NASPA, the professional home for student affairs and an organization that is committed to cultivating student success. NASPA's long standing partnership with Eric and Deb Souter and the Souter Foundation as cofounders remains vital to the center's success. Since partnering with NASPA to create the center, the suitors commitment to the continuous growth and long term sustainability of the organization is the foundation on which the center's success is built, while their passion for creating economic opportunity and belief in the potential of 1st generation students is unparalleled. The transition to a 501c3 organization offers many benefits, providing more partner opportunities for higher education institutions, more ways for the philanthropic community to influence 1st generation success and outcomes 1st generation success and outcomes, and more opportunities for the center to drive transform to drive transformational change for institutions nationwide. Keep an eye out for some other exciting changes, some different names, but the center will continue to offer the same outstanding program services and support that you've come to expect while also growing to meet the needs of an evolving field. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:45]: Okay. We are back. Thank you, Chris, as always, for telling us what's going on in and around NASPA. There's a lot happening post conference, so I hope you've all made it home safely and you're gearing up towards the end of the year now. So we are very thrilled to be bringing you into our lightning round. I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. Okay. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:21:03]: These are unscripted because I is my go to karaoke song. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:16]: And we're here at the conference right now. Kevin Kruger just literally entered to the Bee Gees Stayin' Alive and, like, did a disco dance on stage. It was actually really fun. Yes. Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:21:27]: I don't know. You know, it was funny. I didn't have any women in my life who worked. Mhmm. And so that was a very interesting question. So I didn't really know what women did when I was 5. Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Probably doctor Joe Paul from University of Southern Mississippi. He was our vice president of student affairs and is now the president. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:48]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:21:51]: Oh, probably beginning your journey for our graduate students to learn how to navigate your 1st year in the profession. That's a NASBA publication. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:00]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:22:03]: This is Us. It is amazing. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:05]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:22:08]: the last year. Probably the student leadership programs knowledge community podcast, and I serve as a SLPKC co chair. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:15]: And finally, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:22:18]: I would love to give a shout out to everyone I've met at this conference and everyone who I hope to connect with afterwards. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:25]: It's been a pleasure getting to know you and hearing about the faculty side of your journey. Mostly we talk with practitioners on our show, so it's really great to get the balance on the other side. If folks would like to connect with you after the show, how can they find you? Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:22:38]: Sure. My email is [email protected]. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:42]: Thank you so much, Stacey, for sharing your voice with us. Dr. Stacey Malaret [00:22:45]: Thank you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:48]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Cratney. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:29]: This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Diversity and Inclusion as Cornerstones In the latest episode of NASPA's SA Voices From the Field, Dr. Jill Creighton emphasizes a critical component of student affairs - the unwavering commitment to justice, equity, diversity, inclusion, and belonging (JEDIB). Our seasoned panelists, hailing from various colleges and universities, underscore the weight these principles carry in their day-to-day operations, extending to job searches, mentorship, and general support within their respective institutions. Intentional Hiring and Representation Several panelists, such as Aquanetta Pinkert and Dr. Adrienne White, spotlight the importance of creating an environment where everyone feels they belong. They stress intentional hiring practices that not only look at qualifications but also give weight to lived experiences, ensuring teams mirror the diversity of the student body they serve. Challenges and Alignment with Values The current landscape, fraught with challenges in states like Louisiana and Florida, demands an active demonstration of DEI values. Taylor Kane and Shatera Davis explain the necessity of aligning personal values with those of their employers to effectuate genuine change and advocate for marginalized communities. Growth and Empathy in Leadership Evolving as empathetic leaders is key. Panelists discuss the need to incorporate DEI into everyday work, language, and team collaborations, recognizing that personal growth stems from understanding and championing diverse perspectives. Leaders like Dilna Cama and Sabina Kapoor emphasize the dynamic nature of DEI and its role in shaping mentorship and advocacy within higher education. Support Systems and Professional Development Rachael Amaro and Stephanie Cochrane highlight support systems' centrality in fostering an inclusive environment for staff and students. Professional development tailored to understanding and serving diverse student populations is not just an additive; it is the foundation upon which equitable student support is built.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your SA Voices from the field host. Hello, SA Voices. This is our final bonus episode from the annual conference in which you shared with us your thoughts on the 3 conference foci areas. If you haven't listened to the other 2, go ahead and check back for the previous 2 weeks to listen to your responses there. For today's focus area, we're looking at justice, equity, diversity, inclusion, and belonging. And the question we asked all of you was how do considerations of JED IB influence your approach to job searching, mentorship, and or support in the profession of student affairs? You all had some incredible responses to this one. Please enjoy this part of the conversation, and again, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us. Acquanetta Pinkard [00:01:04]: I'm Acquanetta Pinkard. I am from Montgomery, Alabama. I work for Alabama State University and I am a trio professional for 23 years. It influences greatly because I believe everybody matters. Everybody matters, everybody in their respective place should have an opportunity to feel free, have a sense of belonging and be comfortable for whatever time that you you're in that space. So it's huge for me. Taylor Cain [00:01:33]: I'm Taylor Cain. I work at the University of Georgia and serve as the director of engagement leadership and service there. I think when it comes to DEI efforts, you know, trying to keep those things always at the front of your mind, recognizing my own privilege that I have and the identities that I hold, the experiences that I've been fortunate enough to have, recognizing they might extend it to everybody, whether because of identities they might hold or because they don't have the financial backing right to attend a conference as great as NASPA. But trying to keep those things in mind and make opportunities for folks to to experience what they can where they are, within the local locality of where they're at and what they're able to to do. I think when it comes to the work that we do in supporting students is recognizing how I show up, how I take the time to spend with folks to better understand their lived experience, let that inform how I approach my work. And always I think recognizing and and trying to approach it with a little bit of humility. I've always got more to learn. I mean, I certainly don't know at all. Taylor Cain [00:02:31]: So, I mean, I think that's that's certainly gonna be important. And, you know, I think at the end of the day, trying to find an employer or a place of employment that matches your values, where you feel like you can be yourself, that you can show up authentically and do good work, and to know that that you are salient to the purpose and mission of that institution. I think for me, I've I feel really lucky to be in a place where where those values align, but I've always encouraged folks that that whatever institution you're at may not always be it. And so trying to find opportunities where you at the end of the day can go home and feel good about what you're doing. Because that buy in, it's tough to sometimes achieve, but it's so important I think to your happiness and being feeling empowered in the role that you have. And so trying to find where you can have value alignment. Adrienne White [00:03:16]: I'm doctor Adrienne White. I'm the director of student success coaching at George Mason University, and I use sheher pronouns. So as a black woman in higher education, I think mentorship is extremely important. Personally, did not have a mentor that helped me, and guide me through these processes. I kinda had to figure it out on myself, on my own. And so, you know, that's part of the drive for me to run the success coaching program at George Mason University because I wanna be able to make sure that all students have the resources and the support that they need to succeed. I also am very intentional with who I hire on my team. I have one of the most diverse teams at George Mason University because I knew it was important that my team needed to represent the student body. Adrienne White [00:04:02]: We're one of the most diverse institutions in the country. Therefore, my team needed to reflect that as well. And so I prioritize who I hire and making sure that it's not just, you know, on look, it's on experiences, it's on background. It's it's encompassing everything to give everybody the opportunity, to work in student affairs because it's a field of belonging and inclusion, and it really starts at the top and making sure that we're intentional in our hiring decisions. Susan Hua [00:04:33]: Hi. My name is Susan Hua. I use sheher pronouns, and I'm the director of diversity, equity, inclusion at the Community College of Aurora, which is an MSI HSI just outside of Denver, Colorado. Diversity, equity, inclusion plays a really, really big role for me when I job search or when I think about mentorship relationships or support. I think it's the foundation of everything that we do, and I know that with the current landscape of DEI being under attack in different states, it's ever more important for us to think about ways that we're centering DEI work for employees and for students, and to really think about how we're centering equity at the heart of the work that we're doing to embrace change for students in the future and to really ensure that higher education is open access for folks. Aileen Hentz [00:05:12]: My name is Aileen Hentz. I'm at the University of Maryland as the program director of academic and student services. This is something that has been important to me since essentially day one, even long before I started my journey within higher education. I think for me, I'm looking for different opportunities and ways to better myself professionally by constantly expanding my network of support, places and people that I can, work and collaborate with to help better help students. I think also I've now, at this point, pushed harder. I don't just accept answers to questions that I don't think are fair or just. I try to see what I can do to help push an issue further, to really try to inspire broader and bigger change. To me, it's not just enough these days to just refer a student who's struggling with something to somewhere else, like our counseling center or our multicultural advocacy group. I still do that, but I also think to myself, well, what more can I do? And so I'll try to bring things to our department level and change policy within our department. And even within our diversity council at the college level, I'll bring different issues that I see or hear from my students to them to try and really push for change on a broader scale. Stephen Rice [00:06:27]: Stephen Rice, director of the Office of Community Expectations at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles, California. It's important to really that people are seen in your positions, and so really thinking about diversity, equity, inclusion should be a foundation and framework in all the work that we do, especially with those we hire because our students are diverse populations, and so they should see the people that they often meet with may look like them too. And so if everyone looks the same, they're not able to really provide a different unique experience and opportunity for students. Often times, there's a trust that students may have, and when they see someone that looks like them, they're able to go to those individuals and create more tools and other opportunities for them to really grow and reach and be mentored so they'd be successful students and work forward. And then it's also with the staff that we have. When you're the only one, it's tough. And so when you're able to bring a very diverse, unique experience, people feel supported, they feel seen, and they provide the same for the students that they serve. Amy Adam [00:07:19]: Hi. This is Amy Adam and I am from the University of Missouri in Columbia. I have been a student services support manager for 20 years, serving graduate students with diversity, equity, and inclusion that does very much influence my approach to mentorship and support in my profession. We have a lot of international students that we make sure that they feel supported and connected to campus. And I know they face a lot of adversity coming from another country, especially in the Midwest, so we really strive to make sure that they feel supported. And I'm also doing some work with students with disabilities as I finish up my master's in higher ed. So that's been really, really just enjoyable and satisfying to help that population of students make sure that they feel connected to campus, that they feel that sense of belonging, and show them that they can advocate for themselves and have a voice because their voice matters. So, really, we just kinda try to keep that in our mindset in our daily work just to make sure that those students are supported. Stephanie Cochrane [00:08:27]: Hi. I'm Stephanie Cochrane. I'm the director of student services at Northeastern University in Toronto. I'm here for NASPA for just the Sunday pre conference around graduate students. Well, one of my passion projects since I started in the role was a mentorship program, a peer mentorship program. And so thinking about our international students, they really are looking for mentorship, guidance, support, any advice from their peers, and they're more likely to listen to their peers than to us sometimes. So thinking about the DEI piece, they feel that sense of belonging when there's somebody who's been through a similar experience to them. So having them connected with a mentor from their very first semester before they even arrive in Canada is super helpful for them with not just understanding navigating the Canadian landscape, the Toronto city, the cost of living, and then, of course, their academic journey. So having that is a really helpful way to think about DEI because it's from that peer to peer support, which is sometimes missing in higher education. Shatera Davis [00:09:28]: Hi. My name is Shatera Davis. I use sheher pronouns. I'm the director of student affairs at Northeastern in Seattle. I mean, it's embedded in my identity as a black person, as a queer person. I can't work in a space that doesn't have that as core values. And if I choose a place that's like that, then I can find really quickly that it doesn't align with my values. And so it's probably the one it's the most important thing because it's who I am visibly. Shatera Davis [00:09:50]: And so as I move and as I navigate to different higher ed institutions, I'm very direct in my questions, like, what have they done for historically marginalized students? What do they do for staff? What did they do during the pandemic? How were they kind to their staff in this new remote era and hybrid era? Like, how are they giving their staff benefits? And, like, those kinds of things, I'm asking those intentional questions because I wanna make sure that I'm in alignment with the values. It doesn't mean the higher education institution is bad, it just means it's not right for me. And so I just make sure that it's always in alignment for me because it's personal. I mean, it's embedded in my identity as a black person, as a queer person. I can't work in a space that doesn't have that as core values. And if I choose a place that's like that, then I can find really quickly that it doesn't align with my values and so it's probably the one it's the most important thing because it's who I am visibly and so as I move and as I navigate to different higher ed institutions, I'm very direct. My question is, like, what have they done for historically marginalized students? What do they do for staff? What did they do during the pandemic? How were they kind to their staff in this new remote era and hybrid era? Like, how are they giving their staff benefits? And, like, those kinds of things, I'm asking those intentional questions because I wanna make sure that I'm in alignment with the values. It doesn't mean the higher education institution is bad, it just means it's not right for me, and so I just make sure that it's always in alignment for me because it's personal. Andy Wiegert [00:11:12]: I am Andy Wiegert, director of graduate student affairs, Arts and Sciences, Washington University in St. Louis. Yes, this has to actually, in my opinion, start from the moment we are interviewing candidates for positions and bringing people to our campus is that everything should be looked at through the lens of equity and the lens of inclusion. And so from the start, my stance, our stance is to be asking those questions upfront. So how do you define anti racism? How do you define things like this? Will you be a fit to be an actual mentor who recognizes this need for diversity? So we're doing that at the very, very early stages. That then translates to training, development, things like that, but if we're not doing it out of the gates, then we're gonna run into problems down the road. Scott Peska [00:12:01]: Hi. Scott Peska, Waubonsee Community College, Assistant Provost of Student Services. I think in all three of these areas, job searching, mentorship, and support for the profession of student affairs, there's probably nothing more important than equity and injustice and looking at place that you're looking at to the the values of the institution reflect what your values are and you know and so as a student affairs professionals something that has come to my heart is just making sure that we can care for all of our students and that we can try to help them succeed no matter what their background and making sure that we can put the necessary supports there. And so if the institution doesn't have those same values, we gotta be able to look at that. And so I've always looked at it when job searching. I think when mentoring, talking to individuals, making sure that I'm reaching out to be able to provide those kind of supports all across the way. Dilna Cama [00:12:48]: Dilna Cama. I am a director within student life at the Ohio State University, and I am part of the off campus and commuter knowledge community. I think that is part of our everyday life. It has to be something that we have ingrained not in just the work that we do, but the language we use, how we work with our teams, making sure that they not only understand where their perspective is coming from, but how that impacts other individuals on a team, in a community, whatever that might look like. Sabina Kapoor [00:13:21]: My name is Sabina Kapoor, and I'm currently a full time doctoral student with Capella University. I spent over 20 years in higher education as a staff within student affairs, student success, and academic affairs. So as I've progressed in my career, I've focused more on staff so that they can better serve students. And I wanna go in deep with that, so that's why I'm pursuing the doctorate relationship between the organization and the employee. I'm gonna reference Pamela Hayes' model. If you've ever the acronym is ADDRESSING, and so it's looking at different different categories from age to disability to religion to sexual orientation, sexual gender identification, etcetera. And so all these different categories, a person could potentially be, what Pamela Hayes says is oppressed in some categories and privileged in others. So, for example, as a minority woman who's heterosexual, I'm privileged in the sexual orientation, but I'm repressed in the gender category and also in the ethnic and cultural category. Sabina Kapoor [00:14:32]: So it's interesting because idea of minoritized is not all one side, you are minoritized or you're not. It's kind of looking at different facets of that. So I say that because I use that as a premise with anything. So when I'm looking for a job, when I'm mentoring others, I try to remember inclusivity and look at things from the other's perspective. And I'll be honest, my oppressed areas have been like traditional ones. So with emerging ones, and I'm in a privileged position, it's really interesting. It's I had to see things from a privileged lens, and that was an interesting learning experience because I'd never been in that situation. So I say that because it's all shapes and influences all of this, how I mentor, how I support others and advocate. My last position, I was a dean for student success at a dual designated HBU and HSI. And I think advocacy was probably the top thing that I was doing while I was there. So so all that to say, DEI, it's not just my premise, it's who I am. So it really influences everything that what I do in my career. Carlie Weaver [00:15:44]: Hello. I am Carlie Weaver with Rose Hulman Institute of Technology. I'm a programs coordinator for the student activities in Union office. I did one of my assistantships with University of South Alabama during my grad school career, and so I did that with the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Office, and it's something that I like to think about a lot when I'm making decisions, especially with such a student facing role. I like to think of diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging before I make pretty much any choice because I know that it is so influential in students' lives. So, even when I'm thinking about, like, what kind of programming to bring to campus, I'm thinking about the different populations that we have and what is of interest to those populations. Roxanne Wright Watson [00:16:33]: Hi. My name is Roxanne Wright Watson. I'm from Lehigh Carbon Community College in Pennsylvania, and I'm happy to be here. I think it is not a matter of influencing because the bills of that will be paid. So so we need to make sure that it's for me, 1st and foremost, it is I think I just need to go to work, do what I gotta do, and go home. But having equity, diversity, and all of that within the institution is an added thing that now gives me help me to broaden my scope, help me to blossom, to bloom where I'm at. So it is an institution that support these values and goals, then I am more open. I give more of my self than it would be if I am just at an institution that is just not supportive of these values. Carla Ortega Santori [00:17:34]: My name is Carla Ortega Santore. I work at Rice University. I am the strategic initiatives manager at the Doerr Institute For New Leaders at Rice University. And my job is really about helping students elevate their leadership capacity and to also elevate the capacity of all campuses to do really great leader developments in education. I'm actually from Puerto Rico, so whenever I'm looking for a job or when I'm looking for a mentor, I'm looking to see other familiar faces in the room, like, I'm seeing where I'm represented, seeing the kinds of students we work with. So that that's one thing I I usually look for. I also look for concrete ways, examples. I guess another way that influences my day to day professional life is when I also see I'm a IO psychologist by education, so I also look for research that's represented in that. So any evidence of impact, measurable outcomes that we see that are related to people of color and other underrepresented minorities is really important when I and I'm looking for any evidence based practices to apply, to implement with students, or for any support in the profession. Rachael Amaro [00:18:55]: I'm Rachael Amaro. I'm the admissions and academic advisor for the Department of Educational Leadership within the College of Education at Cal State Fullerton. I think that, I mean, for sure with the mentorship piece, it's I have had a hard time finding people that I could rely on when I first started, but I think that's made me a little more active in trying to be a mentor to others. And I really appreciate the the trust that I can build with the team that I work with. You know, I have I have one immediate colleague in my department, but then all of us in in our college are on the same floor of the building we're in, and so it's been really great to get to know everybody and to make the time and the space for each other, and then because I've been there, for sure I've been on campus a lot longer than a lot of them, and so trying to let them know, you know, sort of what's what's going on, how to navigate things, especially because a lot of them, it's their first time working at a university, and I think it's really so important because most of us happen to be Latinx that a lot of the new hires have been, and so it's been really important to me to let them know things even about making sure sure they're putting money in their retirement, making sure they're doing these things that we just didn't necessarily always get taught. And even things as simple as, hey, when you're taking a vacation day, like, really take a vacation day. Use your time because you need to. Because we're so used to not being told how to navigate that from people in a supervisory positions who aren't used to the diversity that's coming up into the field. And so I think that's a really important part. Again, we talk about the hidden curriculum a lot for the students, but there's a hidden side for staff as well. And so when we come from families and parents who worked in factories and had a very different way of living and working, we also have to learn how to navigate these systems that we're now working in. And I think it's important to be able to share that with them so that they don't feel isolated or alienated and they feel like we're in this together. Christine Wilson [00:21:00]: I'm Christine Wilson. I am in student affairs at UCLA. I have two roles. 1 is as the executive director for academic partnerships and the other is the program director for our masters in student affairs program. I think that justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion are at the forefront of everything that I do. It's a principle of our organization. It's part of the mission of our school of education where I'm program director and I teach. Our campus is incredibly diverse and if we don't consider that, then we are not serving our students. So if that's not something people are on board with, then they should not come to UCLA. Olivia Ruggieri [00:21:42]: Hi there. My name is Olivia Ruggieri. I'm the associate director of administration operations for Northeastern University Seattle campus. I grew up in Pennsylvania, went to college in Florida, and came out here in 2013, but I've been working for the university since 2018. Well, my area, while we are definitely not HR, we do support searches on our campus. So one of my staff members, he will assist hiring managers in doing an inch initial evaluation of candidates and then help them design their searches. But recognizing that while we've made improvements in this area, we're not doing it as well as we could be. This summer, we're gonna be establishing a group that will ultimately create a set of DEI hiring standards, and we wanna make sure that there's strong representation from all types of folks on our campus, faculty, staff, and hopefully students, to ensure that we're hiring in the most equitable way. And I have to say that, like, since this has become a focus of mine, I look at job descriptions differently and just what I've learned about how to hire equitably and certain phrases raise flags for me because I realized that they may not represent welcomeness to all. So it's just become part of my practice and how I evaluate different opportunities. Christle Foster [00:23:04]: Hi. My name is Christle Foster and I'm from Chesapeake College located on the Eastern Shore of Maryland in Y Mills. When it comes to my staff, because of the work that we do, so student focused, definitely diversity, equity, and inclusion is a part of that, especially with the populations we serve in Trio. That's definitely what we do as part of our mission. So when it comes to choosing staff and helping staff go through professional development, that's some of the things that we always look at. Whether it's in terms of ethnicity, accessibility, or ability, or unabilities in regards to education. We recently did, training with the University of Delaware who has a special program that's focused on students who are new or divergent, and it was exemplary. What they are doing there with a grant is just amazing. So we were able to get some information from them on how to help our students who are neurodivergent, or some of them are on spectrum, so to speak. Nathalie Waite Brown [00:24:03]: My name is Nathalie Waite Brown. I am the assistant dean of students and director for graduate student life at Stevens Institute of Technology located in Hoboken, New Jersey. I think I approach those areas first and foremost from a personal perspective, notwithstanding all of the visible identities that I carry, I'm a 1st generation student, parents who migrated to the US in the early seventies. So I work with a large international student population, and I take those identities very much in leading how I work with them and being able to understand the potential need that's in front of them. And that runs the gamut. It's not limited to who I am, but also having a level of empathy and support in guiding the work and the resources that students need. Dae'lyn Do [00:24:50]: My name is Dae'Lyn Do. I use sheher pronouns, and I am the associate director for the women in science and engineering residence program at the University of Michigan. And I am coming into the position of the WISA KC co chair. I think specifically when it comes to mentorship, something I always take into consideration that I do try to do myself, but I also encourage my students to do is to seek out a variety of different mentors who have different lived experiences. And so not just, I think we oftentimes talk about finding mentors who look like us or who share similar identities with us, which is really important, but I also think it's important to seek out folks who maybe don't because we learn different perspectives and different ways of looking at things that we might not if we just rely on the people who have the same lived experiences as us. And so, I think when it comes to thinking through our own efforts of justice and equity, our mentors are the people that we learn from and so trying to diversify our own support network is the best way to kind of get those different experiences and support. Natalie DeRosa [00:25:55]: So my name is Natalie DeRosa, and I'm from Lehigh Carbon Community College in Schnecksville, Pennsylvania. I would say that those two terms, justice and equity, are central when I am doing job searching. Not only how the organization embraces those concepts, but also the person who is my direct support, that they are equity minded and justed justice minded themselves makes or breaks whether or not I feel like that organization is the right organization for me. Dan Volchek [00:26:25]: Dan Volchek, assistant dean of student success at Harvard Griffin Grad School of Arts and Sciences. I look at DEI as a very important piece of dealing with my job search, mentorship, and support. I try to look at what we're doing with both our faculty, our staff, and our students in the DEI world and making sure we're addressing all of those issues and challenges that others may be facing that I may not have faced to make sure that I'm dealing with DEI in a positive manner. Vaughn Calhoun [00:27:00]: Vaughn Calhoun, Seton Hall University, hehim. Yeah. I think looking for places and people with high social emotional intelligence, knowing that any place that I would think about or people I wanna engage with, that there's a high sense of empathy to help build those lasting relationships. Because I think without the empathy, it's it's hard to really move to higher levels of conversation. So if you could find that in organization and people, you found something really good. Darlene Robinson [00:27:37]: My name is Darlene Robinson. I'm the RISE gen 1 director for Seton Hall University. I think it influences the career in the sense that I want to be on a level playing field. I wanna be considered as a person that is capable of certain things rather than just basing it off of filling a quota. I think it is fair enough to accept people for who they are and get to know them for them them as a person first before not even before, but without passing judgment based on certain discriminatory practices. Because in doing that, you get to know the person first and understand that we're all connected in some way. Miguel Angel Hernandez [00:28:20]: Hello. My name is Miguel Angel Hernandez. I am the associate vice president and dean of students at San Francisco State University. What attracted me to student affairs to begin with is my curiosity about humans and human beings. And what has sustained me 24 years in this profession at this point in my life has been the curiosity that continues about the people I get to interact with, the students that continue to change and evolve and allow me to grow, and in many ways, stay young because we have to keep up, not keep up in a bad way, but just it is never a dull moment learning from our students, learning from our colleagues. And so when I think about DEI work, I think about my curiosity about life and how we evolve as people. I think about my own journey, how different I am today than when I first moved into my residence hall. I think about the beautiful places I've been able to visit and serve and work and the stories of those people, those places, those moments in time. Miguel Angel Hernandez [00:29:17]: And so for me, DEI work is not about difference. It is about the stories of people, the stories of places that we get to visit and explore and learn. And so for me, I really think about that when I am mentoring, coaching, supervising, engaging with students. I think about it in my own search. As I consider opportunities, I think about what do I bring into spaces, what can I gain from spaces, And I use those thoughts to formulate questions for either the individuals that are asking me to consider a position and or while I am engaging in the search process? And so those types of aspects of diversity, equity, and inclusion, I think, keep that work very centered, very front, and create opportunities for us to continue again learning and growing in our profession. David Chao [00:30:07]: Hello. My name is David Chao. My pronouns are hehim. I serve as the director of IT for student affairs at the University of Pittsburgh, and I'm also the chair of the technology knowledge community. As a first generation Asian American, you know, it's really important for me. I think coming to higher education from the corporate world, I think I've seen and been exposed to a very healthy environment where we're trying to be more open to all ideas and diversity is really, really important. It's strange because being an Asian American, as a minority, you think I'd be more sensitive to that, but I guess I didn't really always see that. And so I feel like my eyes are much more open to it, and my ability to help others and mentor and foster a collaborative and diverse environment, which is a challenge in our society today. Melinda Stoops [00:30:47]: Hi. I am Melinda Stoops. I serve as the associate vice president for student health and wellness at Boston College. I think even though I've been in student affairs for a long time, I feel like this is one area that I consider a growth area. I am a middle aged white woman, and my background and my experiences certainly are related to my identity in in many ways. And I feel like the longer I'm in higher ed, the more I'm interacting with increasingly a more diverse student body, the more I have to learn. And so I just feel like as I do my work, whether it's being supervised or supervising, whether it's mentoring or being mentored, I feel like increasingly I really focus on being open to not making assumptions either about the other person, but also not making assumptions that even if I'm in a mentoring role that I have all the answers. That really, I have a lot to learn as well and taking time to really understand the person I'm working with and where they're coming from and their perspectives and sort of maximizing the impact we can both have on each other. Derek Grubb [00:31:54]: Derek Grubb, Dean of Enrollment Management for Red Rocks Community College in Colorado. In terms of justice and equity, one of the biggest things I've been trying to do lately is really recognize to avoid agendas. And not so much agendas and meetings, but agendas in terms of having a predetermined outcome and really accepting people where they are and being able to really just sort of embrace those opportunities for challenging conversations and looking for new perspectives. So up on my wall right now is the, no agendas policy. Matt Imboden [00:32:28]: My name is Matt Imboden. I use the he, him pronouns. I serve as the chief student services officer in the School of Business at Wake Forest University in North Carolina. And, for the past few years, I've also been chairing the administrators and graduate and professional student services knowledge community for NASPA. All those things I want. The funny thing about diversity, equity, inclusion, and justice work is it's one in the same with overall student success, sense of belonging, it's a 100% connected to student well-being. And so, sometimes I think we create these bifurcations and divisions and we create this little bucket and label it, you know, diversity programming. But especially as I think there's a lot of renewed pressures on those roles and leaders with the people that are exponents of those values that are institutions. It's even more important to just talk about the ways in which, no, our ability to recruit and retain students is one in the same with being good at that work. And for some reason, I think it takes on a life of its own or becomes a bit of a specter when people try to apply those labels in only certain places. But if we wanna win as institutions in the 21st century in the marketplaces we work in, you gotta figure out how all the things you just mentioned apply to your day in day out work. Evette Castillo Clark [00:33:36]: Evette Castillo Clark, vice president for student life and dean of students at Lewis and Clark College, Portland, Oregon. So this is super important and critical because with job searching, with mentoring, and our profession, it is really important for us to have diverse professionals, diverse thinking, embracing different perspectives because it makes us rich, and it makes the whole organization stronger. So in our recruitment procedures, one of my things is that I want to make sure that whoever is, for example, sharing a search, that you've worked every angle to make sure that you have racial diversity, gender diversity, regional diversity, just a broad spectrum of backgrounds to get to the semifinalist pool and then also to try to get to the finalist pool. You make every effort to do that, and I employ that same model with student leadership. So in elections or looking at who do we want on our student employment to employ as student workers, orientation leaders, RAs. You want that to be a cross section because if you're doing community building work, you have to have leadership that looks like the people that you serve. Madeline Frisk [00:34:48]: Hello. My name is Madeline Frisk. I work at Portland State University. I'm the coordinator of student government relations and advisor to Greek life. So I work with our student government, all of the committees and groups within that, as well as 4 strong and mighty small Greek life groups as well. I would say I especially think of diversity, equity, and inclusion in terms of how I support students and show up. At PSU, we have a lot of non traditional students. We're also becoming an emerging HSI and Anapisa institution. So I think about how I'm showing up and my identities, how I can better serve students, and I try to stay well informed, read, do a lot of research and background work so that I'm showing up for them and also try to provide them all the training that I can. It also helps to have other coworkers and people you can rely on to kind of fill in any gaps too. So I think that's really helped as well having people and allies in your life that you can rely on as well as, good coworkers and team as well as kind of with the support in the profession of student affairs. I recently started a book club at our institution within our LGBT affinity employee resource group and that's really helped me to kind of also build even more support for myself in this work and also people who I know I can rely on that can be additional supports for my students. So that's been really great. Gene Zdziarski [00:36:15]: This is Gene Zdziarski. I'm vice president for student affairs at DePaul University. I think it's been one of the things that I find in my career trying to find a place where that sense of diversity and inclusion really is embraced and a part of things. I work at a Catholic university, and a lot of people have different opinions about the Catholic faith and everything else, but what I have to say is when I interviewed for the job there, one of the things I wanted to make sure was that, again, there was a sense of diversity, appreciation, and openness. We had an LGBTQA center. We had, LGBTQ studies. We have embraced other faiths and people, and that was extremely important to me. And I think something that perhaps people don't always look at when they look at a faith based institution, but I think you'll find that, again, that's an important piece of higher education, an important piece of our work in my career in student affairs. Lyza Liriano [00:37:10]: Hello. My name is Lyza Liriano. I currently serve as an area coordinator at DePaul University in Housing and Residence Life. Originally, I am from Brooklyn, New York. It influences it a it a lot. I'm a queer woman of color, and so I want to make sure that the spaces that I walk into are going to be spaces where I feel safe and where there are students that look like me so that they know that they can come to me. My identity is very intersectional, and I think that that's one of my favorite parts of my identity, and there's been spaces that I've stepped into where I've had to choose, okay, am I going to focus on being a black woman today? Am I going to focus on being a queer woman today? And so creating those spaces of you can be all of that at once. And when I'm job searching, that is something that I'm very intentional about asking is what work do you do apart from sending students to the Black Student Center or the LGBTQ Student Center? What is your department actually doing to help these students? And so I also want it to be just someone that students can come to because I've been in spaces where I'm sometimes the only woman of color, and so I wanna make sure my students know, like, I'm creating space for myself so that in, you know, years to come when my students are out in the field, hopefully in student affairs, they also are going to have multiple seats at the table not just the one. Jackie Cetera [00:38:28]: Jackie Cetera. I use sheher pronouns, and I serve as the director of residential education at Bucknell University in Pennsylvania. I find it's all in how people show up in their day to day and what they're doing to not only support students on our campus, but also employees, both faculty and staff. When we talk about the sense of belonging, I believe that it's really important for us as leaders, as our institutions to make sure that our faculty and staff have a sense of belonging so they can show up and do good work and provide opportunities and spaces for our students to also find that sense of belonging. Lisa Landreman [00:39:15]: My name is Lisa Landerman. I'm the vice president for student affairs at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon. Similarly, I stay abreast of current issues. I am doing my own work through institutes, 1 on 1 consulting and every opportunity I can to talk with other colleagues around best practices, most effective strategies. I I also really try to center relationships so that there's this there's the book learning and research of our trends, but then there's also every individual's gonna have their own experience and their multiple identities that are gonna shape their experience at our particular institution. So, how I handle that and manage kind of issues of justice and equity, whether it's around language, practices, programs, initiatives in Oregon is different than when I was in Rhode Island, is different when I was at the University of Michigan. And so I think context matters, listening to our staff, again, creating space, trying to support affinity relationships for where that matters to people, sure that we are constantly looking at our policies, practices through an equity lens. And so every time we're writing a new policy, we look at that lens. Lisa Landreman [00:40:27]: At least once a year, we take a moment to reflect on new programs, policies, or practices to ask questions. Who's at this event? Who does this impact? Who who's included? Whose voice was at the table when we created it? So all those kinds of checklists that come with looking at the subtle ways that the work that we do might impact people that of groups we're not members for some ways. Celebrating and recognizing heritage month's accomplishments of diverse folks in in our both in our community. I think in hiring, we do a lot to look at what biases do we bring, what biases we have that might not be about race, but that biases we have about the field or the job that might have an impact on people from different racial groups or identity groups. Right? And so it isn't always so overt, so I think doing our work around. Before every search, we do we we really come to the table and say, so what are our biases about? And we look at a resume. And, you know, we really scrutinize our job descriptions to make sure do are all those qualifications really necessary? Is that many years of experience really necessary? Are we really waiting what can really be learned on the job, and what really do people have to have experience coming? So those are those are all ways that we subtly sort of can bias our searches. Those are just some I could go on and on, but I I think the important point about this is that especially in this time, regardless of what's happening with legislators, we as individuals can shape our own practice to demonstrate where these values matter regardless of what offices aren't allowed to be in my campus. That's still a battle we need to fight. And just because that battle's being fought, doesn't mean it stops us from doing centering that as an important value. Jackie Yun [00:42:08]: Hi. I'm Jackie Yun. I take the she series, and I serve as the executive director of the Harvard Griffin GSAS Student Center. I think it impacts everything. So I really am somebody who believes that DEI is not just held with folks that have that in their title, but it's really the responsibility of everyone at an institution to be considering that. And I think about this from my own experiences, whether or not I feel like I'm included in a community, but also in my management, my hiring, the way that I scaffold spaces for students, and so I think it's really important work. Leanna Fenneberg [00:42:44]: Hello. This is Leanna Fenenberg. I'm the incoming chief student affairs officer at Duquesne University. Oh my gosh. Isn't that a big question? Right? I mean, I feel like for most of us, for many of us in student affairs, DEI work is at the core of our values and what we do and why we do it. So it's to professional searches, to professional development, to building a community of support for our students and for our staff. And so it is central to everything we do. Jake Murphy [00:43:16]: Jake Murphy. I'm the director of prospective students services at OSU Institute of Technology, and I am over all recruitment and retention efforts at the university. So for me, it's probably a really big thing, but it's really tough in the state that I'm at because there's a whole mess concerning DEI work and justice and equity and inclusion work. So for me personally, it's a big factor in where I choose to go to work. I wanna make sure that the environment that I'm at is focused on making sure that the whole student is taken care of, but being place bound sometimes it makes it a little bit difficult. But also creating those environments is also really key and making sure that students feel supported, that they have a sense of community, and are able to be able to go through their out their student journey is extremely important. And mentorship for us, especially in, like, peer mentorship is very important to be able to create those spaces. Larry Pakowski [00:44:13]: Larry Pakowski. I'm the vice president for student engagement, inclusion, and success at Aims Community College in Greeley, Colorado. I think we've gotta to look at the students we serve and at the end of the day that's one of the things that we want to be reflective of who we serve but we also want to embrace the the variety of different diverse cultures and backgrounds and things like that. Not only our students have, but our employees should have as well. Jillaine Zenkelberger [00:44:37]: Hi. I'm doctor Jillaine Zenkelberger. I am the program coordinator over at Graduate Student Life at the University of Notre Dame. I think in my approach to all of these things, having the ability to touch base with a lot of people from different I don't have a master's in higher ed and things like that. Being able to see the diversity in our different backgrounds both educationally, but also racially, ethnically, etcetera, has been super important to me. And I think we bring all these different things to the table, and it's really been great to learn from everyone and their backgrounds of whatever they've done in their past lives, because I know all of us have many past lives sometimes. They're all bringing something, like, super important that I think is really invigorating student affairs because I work with a lot of people who's had past lives and they're really changing things in a lot of cool ways. Kristen Merchant [00:45:48]: Hi everyone. I'm Kristen Merchant. I am from Rose Hulman Institute of Technology. I am the associate director of the Union and Student Activities Office there and also the director of our lead programs. With job searching, I think about whenever I'm doing my hiring actually for orientation. We always put an effort into putting a cohesive team together of a variety of different backgrounds and interests and majors and all the different ways that diversity can come into play. So that way, all of our new incoming students can see a face that they recognize, which is really, really important in the DEI world and is something that we always consider in any type of our hiring practices and any type of programming that I do is making sure that there is someone that they feel like they can go to. Joe Lizza [00:46:35]: My name is doctor Joe Lizza. I'm the director of the Chamberlain Student Center and campus activities at Rowan University in New Jersey. It really is the idea that you want an institution that is respectful for others, supportive of others because you never know when you might be on that opposite side of the situation. So you might be in an institution or in a job role that you feel very comfortable, supported and you feel like you belong and it's very easy to kinda based on a different supervisor or a different university leadership, that could shift. I always look for places that really are respectful, very forward thinking, and they don't only just preach what their beliefs are and their values, but they also put them into action. And that's kinda reassuring to me as a professional in higher education for both for myself and my colleagues. I'm realizing that it's a good place to work, a place that will be supportive of life changes and different situations. Joshua Allred [00:47:32]: My name's Joshua Allred. I work at Louisiana State University in the College of Agriculture as their manager of student services. That's challenging. It's certainly something that is on my mind constantly. I think living in Louisiana and in the South where there's lots of legislation recently, sort of very much anti DEI has been a challenge. So I'm not in a place where I can kind of up and move, unfortunately. I would in some ways, I kinda wish I could. So being on a campus and in a state where there's lots of uncertainty around, like, what does DEI look like in our state has been a challenge. Joshua Allred [00:48:01]: And so we are very much in a place of kind of waiting to see what's gonna happen next. And again, I think finding folks where folks and groups of people where you can hold onto and feel safe and find little beacons of hope is helpful. It's not always there, but I'm a supervisor for an LGBTQIA plus organization in the College of Agriculture and that's been really helpful for me and something that I really knew and renewed importance in. And so that's kind of what I look towards is like the people and and the small things here and there. But certainly a consideration is just tough. It's tough when you can't move. Joshua Allred [00:48:38]: Well, one of the things that I really enjoy about my job is being able to support and work with students, and those are all students, ethnicities, genders. Just being able to support those students in coming to NASPA and being able to learn from experts on how to best support students no matter who they are, no matter where they're from. So at Texas A&M, they give me the opportunity to go to professional development. They give me the opportunity to collaborate with my peers around the country. And during those times, that's what I wanna do. I'm always making sure that I'm talking to the experts in the field to make sure that I'm doing the best to support our students. Judy Traveis [00:49:28]: Hi, everyone. I'm Judy Traveis. I'm the associate dean for the Graduate Student Success Center at the University of Florida. Again, from Florida, we've had DEI impacted, although we all believe in the diversity and what it brings to our campus and the inclusion and and equity piece. I believe institutions that do it well and thread it through all factors of the university, you can really see it. It's tangible and that in as I job search or look for other careers, if I should move institutions, that is something that's very important and I hold as a value in my heart to make sure that that it's not just on a website, that you can actually physically see how it's threaded through by the way the community and culture is on that campus. Katie Caponera [00:50:23]: I'm Katie Caponera, director of student life at Harvard Divinity School. A commitment to all of those tenants, particularly justice, is really important to me personally and professionally. I'm fortunate to work at an institution where that is a key aspiration and goal of our community, and it's something that I would continue to foreground in looking at other types of institutions or future colleagues or partners. It's making sure all of our students feel that it's a space where they can thrive and be their full selves is of paramount importance and continuing to remain dedicated to those efforts, especially admit so much turmoil, I think, is underlines their importance more so. Kathy Dilks [00:51:11]: My name is Kathy Dilks, and I am the director of graduate student and post doctoral affairs at the Icahn to create a team that is not only diverse, but diverse of thoughts. I think it's our responsibility to make certain that we are leaning into DEIB, and I try my hardest to make certain that I am never an impediment in that future. Julie Payne Kirchmeier [00:51:47]: Julie Payne Kirchmeier, vice president for student success for the university Indiana University. It's not really a system. It's a multi campus university, but we can say Indiana University System if that's easier for folk to kind of place the role. It's interesting the word considerations. How do considerations of, show up for me, good and bad, before I can lean into anything else. And I think that's a step we don't often do, particularly and we just jump into, oh, oh, well, of course, you know, Jedi work is important, and of course we're gonna do that. But because we don't stop and pause pause and think and unlearn a lot of what we know, we end up rushing to action so quickly, we cause more harm. And so I think that first step for me, because the question is influence your, is to pause, think, and remember that I have to be okay with who I am, good and bad, take the steps to do my own work, and then bring others into the fold, like, okay. Julie Payne Kirchmeier [00:52:54]: What are the resources we need in meaningful ways so that the work can move through always a lens of equity. So being an equity minded organization, human, professional, friend, partner, all the different components of your life. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:53:10]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:53:51]: This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Empowering Student Voices:  The Digital Transformation The use of social media in higher education has evolved from a platform for personal expression to a crucial tool for professional development and student engagement. Dr. Josie Ahlquist shared her expertise on digital leadership, emphasizing how social media gives students and educators alike the power to craft their own narratives. Gone are the days when online behavior was solely interpreted through a lens of fear; instead, we must encourage responsible and purposeful digital engagement. Revolutionizing Campus Culture: From Traditional to Trailblazing The episode highlighted the need to transcend traditional roles and embrace the flexible, interconnected nature of campus culture. The drive to humanize the workplace converges with the desire to inspire meaningful mentorship and collaboration, both within student affairs and across various campus departments.  A Visionary Approach to Student Engagement Dr. Alquist's curriculum, based on the social change model, teaches students to harness social media's potential for advocacy, community building, and change. Meanwhile, Dr. Jill Creighton's research brings to light the positive impact of social media on academic success, further advocating for its inclusion in student support strategies. Leading by Example: The Entrepreneurial Leap in Higher Education Chronicling her journey from campus professional to CEO, Dr. Alquist offers a candid look at the challenges and mental health tolls of entrepreneurial endeavors. Her experience underscores the importance of self-reflection, support systems, and the willingness to take risks - foundational elements that redefine professional growth in student affairs. An Invitation to Shape the Future Dr. Ahlquist and Dr. Creighton invite you to reflect on their own relationship with social media and its integration into higher education, encouraging continuous adaptation to the digital habits of a new generation of students. This conversation not only serves as a call to action for today's educators but a bridge to the untapped potential of tomorrow's student affairs landscape.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Hey, essay voices. Welcome back for our next episode, and I'm going to be bringing back something that we haven't done in a little while, which is a crossover episode with another podcast. You'll hear us talk about this in the heart of the show, but we are doing a crossover today with doctor Josie Alquist's podcast called Josie and the podcast. So the part one of this conversation drops on her show feed, and this is part 2 of that conversation. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:48]: But first, let me introduce you to Josie. Dr. Josie Alquist guides educational leaders, organizations, and students to practice purpose full digital leadership through speaking, coaching, and consulting. Her practical evidence based frameworks empower clients to build and implement a digital engagement strategy that fits their life, audience, and purpose. Josie's work is grounded in the grant funded and award winning research that has allowed her to train 1,000 around the globe as a speaker, providing consulting services to institutions and companies, and coach professionals in branding, voice, and positioning. Josie's work has appeared in the Handbook Student Affairs Dialogues on Equity, Civility, and Safety. She also served as a co editor and author of The New Directions in Student Services volume, Engaging the Digital Generation and the New Directions in Student Leadership Volume, Going Digital in Student Leadership. In 2023, Dr. Alquist was selected as a NASPA pillar of the profession, one of the highest honors in our field in student affairs. She's a 3 time LinkedIn top voice in education and has been recognized by EdTech Magazine as one of the top 50 must read higher education technology blogs for 5 years. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:02]: Her podcast, Josie and the Podcast, has been featured by the Chronicle of Higher Education and Inside Higher Ed. Her new book, Digital Leadership in Higher Education, Purposeful Social Media in a Connected World, was listed as number 1 on Amazon's new release list for college and university student life. She received her EDD in education from Cal Lutheran and an MED in counseling from Northern Arizona with a BA in psychology and human development and family studies from South Dakota State University. Prior to her independent path, Josie spent nearly 15 years on college campuses in areas of student leadership, student activities, residence life, and student affairs communications and marketing. She previously served as a research associate and instructor at Florida State University Leadership Learning Research Center, where her curriculum builds digital literacy and leadership skills for undergraduates to doctoral students. For more information about Josie's research, speaking, coaching, and consulting, you can find her at www.josiealquist.com. That's josiea hlquist.com. You can also connect with Josie on Instagram, LinkedIn, X, and Facebook. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:07]: Josie, I'm so excited to continue our conversation. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:03:10]: I get, like, a half day with you today. It is so delightful. I need this every month. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:15]: And this is a double episode because Josie just interviewed me on her show, which dropped yesterday. Do you wanna plug that real quick? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:03:24]: So my podcast is Josie and the podcast, and I get to interview amazing guests like Jill and talk about the intersection of marketing, communication, social media, and how to be a human on and offline. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:37]: How to be a human. That is a lesson that we are all continually relearning, I think. It's hard. It's hard. But it's a joy to have you on the show today because you have such an incredible breadth of experience in higher education both as an on campus professional and as a campus partner. As I mentioned in your bio, you recently received the Pillar of the Profession award, which is tremendous. You've authored a book. You've built an entire business that works directly with higher education. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:05]: But it didn't all start there. And so looking forward to hearing more about all of your transitions in career and the choices that you've made along the way to stay connected and anchored into the student affairs profession while serving a gap, that definitely exists in our profession. Let's start at the beginning. How did you find your way onto campus? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:04:27]: Well, the minute I step foot on a campus, whether if it was a tour or where I ended up going to college at South Dakota State, I was hooked. The talents were in and I was one of those freshmen probably on a coffee table yelling, I love college. And, I don't go on coffee tables anymore because that could really hurt my knees. But I just absolutely loved it. The energy, the exploration, the exploration, the involvement, and had really great mentors that were like, well, Chelsea, it's not all the fun stuff of being an orientation leader. There's there's actually a lot of, you know, operations, but I found my way through that too. And also found my way as social media arrived on our campuses that I was really comfortable playing in the sandbox along with a lot of a lot of change. So from my roots in student affairs over 12 years at different campuses, I'm based in Los Angeles. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:05:23]: My last institution was Loyola Marymount and I also have always education is such a core identity of who I am and, values. Early on, my mom or my grandma and grandpa saying you gotta get your education, kid. And I just always knew I wanted to get my doctorate. And so the doctorate was kind of a spark that started a fire. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:05:48]: I didn't ever realize. I can pause there. I can keep going. I don't know. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:53]: Well, your dissertation I think we share this in our stories that our dissertations really led to career changes, which is fascinating. Your dissertation was on social media behavior with undergraduate students. What did you learn from that? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:06:06]: I still feel like I am a interpreter of culture and generations and the internet And around 2013 is when I started my program, and then it was a very it was packed a diminished view of students' use of technology and especially for student leaders, I would hear a lot of talk about assuming students were doing the worst things possible online and I wasn't seeing that with my students. It went against, I feel like, who we are as practitioners that we're putting all this work into empowering them and giving them the tools and we know developmentally and you worked in conduct, you get it, you see that process, but we were making a lot of assumptions out of fear and so I wanted to know what were they really doing online, if it was as bad as we thought or not, because this also was the time where it was super black and white. Do not even look at your student stuff, don't let them connect with you. Some places, you still couldn't even have accounts as departments. It was it was very much scare tactics. And, honestly, that was one of the discoveries in my focus groups. Students would talk about their whole lives that they were educated about social media with fear. To catch a predator came up. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:41]: Oh, yeah. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:07:42]: Like, literally. And what was also so fascinating was they learned lessons based upon how the people in their lives older than them were making mistakes and or their peers, so they were just having to learn this stuff on the flight. Like, imagine dropping Josie, who grew up in Wyoming, on the 405 in LA without ever of driving in in a city before. You woulda had to tow my car out of there. I'm sorry. I just didn't have those skills, and sometimes that's what we're doing and or telling me before I get to LA how it you're gonna adapt you're not gonna make it unless you do x y z, and that kinda broke my heart a little bit. Like, again, we give so much and it's not even about, like, positive psychology but just tell them what to do then. What do you want them to do online? Like, they were so desperate that then they would say, well, this is how my RD, I've noticed, uses Facebook. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:08:36]: So maybe that's how an adult does Facebook even though there is no one way. We know that. Right? We get to make a million choices and so what came from that was a set of curriculum. I wanted to be able to share. I'm a I'm a sharer and this could be a framework you could teach your students And that also is what led then to me speaking to a lot of students in a new way because a lot of times they'd come to, like, my keynote or it to, like, get on LinkedIn or start a blog, share my story. No one told me I could share, but in a purposeful way. So I use the social change model as the framework in both the curriculum, but also what I was looking for. If the student leaders that we were putting so much investment in, if they were actually using those skills on social. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:09:37]: And I think the individual skills was definitely shown. Group skills are more harder. It was the time of the ice bucket challenge, so there was that kind of expression. Yeah. But overall, with a couple exceptions, they were they were using these tools in productive ways and I still think that holds true today that we need to give youth more credit than I think we're just assuming other tool. And so I just really got on a soapbox, Jill. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:03]: If it's a topic you're passionate about, this is good. But I'll give a shout out to doctor Jason Foster, Positive Use of Social Media and Their Academic Success. And that was kind of similar to what you were seeing, a time where I was using social media to connect and build relationships with people. This is before it was a dumpster fire all the time, I think. And we were hearing the narrative that social media was so bad. And so we thought we wanted to contribute to the literature in a way that reflected, well, there's obviously some benefits here. Let's talk about them. And we found that students were using social media to be academically successful in group projects, which was a really interesting twist. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:48]: And, you know, we ended up getting cited in the handbook of qualitative research, I think, or social media research, something like that. And I was like, wow. I didn't think this was that profound, but it's nice to Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:10:58]: This is blowing my mind because I'm fairly positive I cited that paper. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:03]: And now That's really funny. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:11:04]: Source because I'm like, wait. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:11:08]: That's amazing. And but I think the one lesson looking back because it was so extreme that there was this negativity. I stayed in that positive, purposeful place because we know now 10 years later, there are so many ethical issues and concerns and things that need to change and are problematic that things are different. 10 years cycle. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:31]: So let's talk about those transitions then because Yeah. In in our theme of transitions, we've seen all sorts of things from our guests in different personal transitions. But one of the transitions I appreciate from your perspective is this longitudinal arc of how students are using social media, what the concerns are from different generations of students with social media use, and the trends that you're seeing for how student affairs professionals can actually connect with students because I know they don't want us on TikTok. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:12:02]: They do if you meet the culture and the content for that platform. If you show up like you would in an email or on LinkedIn, give them the ick. Like, let that you know, it'd be cringe and I think this is where the concept of time right now kind of blows my mind. I feel like I'm still in my thirties, that I am full blown ahead in my forties. Right? And the longer we're in these positions and we see lots of students come and go, but we can sometimes forget how much has changed in 10 years. So the students in my study, and a lot of them I'm still connected with and some of them are higher ed pros now, they are now full into millennials and we still are thinking about those students and sometimes communicating like those are still our students and meeting them on platforms that we were for example, Facebook groups were big back then. We still have people trying to keep Facebook groups alive for 1st year students, like class of whatever. I'm like, honey, they're on Discord. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:13:03]: They've made a subreddit of you already. The pacing is so much different of these other platforms and so that needs, our side needs to change. They've also grown up even further back than the students in my studies. So as early as when they were born, potentially, the second they came out, they had a paper trail, Good or bad? And we are also seeing more students come or preteens, teens, young adults having more frustrations that then they didn't get say in what their digital identity was early on and or we are also seeing them double down and become influencers on different platforms whether that's a micro influencer just talking about makeup or running or a million other things And so, we might be inviting new students to our campuses. They have influence that we didn't in college in addition to access, so lots of communications. I do think that education and curriculum has improved but honestly the majority of it is their own self. Education and peer education tends to be always some of the strongest factors. I think the other thing that's also who grew up with social media early in their careers and so now they are their own kind of digital natives in executive roles. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:14:35]: I had previous vice presidents that wouldn't touch any tools, let alone know what they are or be willing to access them. So I think 2 things are happening at once, both what our students are doing and what it's impacting our profession and future leaders use or even misuse. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:52]: We are all over the place as a profession in terms of our level of comfort with having a digital identity or digital footprint, as well as our level of capacity or skill base for how that's going for folks. You know, some of us are all in on all platforms. Some of us are partway in on some platforms and all in on others. And some of us are like, you just said Discord. What is that? So there's a level of all of these things. Right? Like, I'm on Discord. I'm on Slack. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:21]: I'm in the YouTube space. TikTok was banned in the country I was last in, so couldn't be on there. But Douyin was allowed, which is, like, the counterpart in the country. But there's also social media that is huge in other parts of the world that a lot of Americans have never heard of or use. Like, WeChat is, like, a tool of life Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:15:39]: Oh, yeah. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:40]: In a lot of Asia. Yes. And and you can't function without a WeChat account. It's where all the information is. So given all of this major big landscape, how would you recommend that student affairs professionals who want to gain digital skills and don't necessarily feel like they know how to do that go about the process. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:15:59]: I think just like how our students are sorting it out and how we seek out mentors and sponsors is to find those yourself. And the nice thing is you can just kind of lurk and scroll on your own, but I do highly encourage people to actually reach out, right? Like if someone aspires to be like you, I aspire to be like you, Joe. But I have a podcast or again, like, working internationally, like, reach out. Use the access not just for the likes and comment. That is my number one advice when students are doing their doctorate or masters. You have a secret sauce that somehow gets taken away after you graduate is that you just say you're a student, people will take your calls more often for guidance and mentorship and so I called up a lot of the people I was citing or just people that were talking a lot about social media and tech to ask some questions and now they're some of my closest colleagues and even friends. And so I guess my advice is you have to take it offline. You really do have to take the relationship piece. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:17:01]: The tools can be a spark, but they are not the source to keep it sustainable. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:07]: You wrote a book recently that was listed as number 1 for new college releases, which is very exciting, on Amazon, Digital Leadership and Higher Education, Purposeful Social Media in a Connected World. Now I don't want you to have to rehash your whole book, but I'm wondering if you have nuggets for professionals who are aspiring to increase their professional digital presence, both for their campuses and for the field. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:17:31]: Write the book. If you wanna write the book, make sure it's in the right place. The reason why you think you want to write a book, my number one piece of advice is write it with someone else. Or it might be great, maybe I was the queen of committee work. I loved it. I was good at it but also then I was, like, I just wanna close myself in my office and be alone. A book project where you're already with working with so many people, it might be a glorious thing for you to get to do something on your own. I would also say just like you need to rearrange the furniture of your life when you do your doctorate, a book will be the same that you will need to and or it's just not gonna get done. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:18:09]: And I would say what I have learned is make it a living thing. What I don't like about books is then they are printed and you can't change it like you can on the Internet. Mhmm. And my book is already very outdated. And I have to think about how do I keep contributing to that topic or leave it entirely and or what is the future versions of it, whether if it's me that's contributing or other people. And I think maybe that's just a lifelong learner in me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:38]: So now let's jump back because you are one of the most, I think, beautifully present people in the campus partner space. We know you well. We see you often. We see you engage with professionals both on and off campus. But that transition was, I think, a scarier leap when you made it than I think it's a little more common now. Tell us about making the determination to discontinue campus based work and, as you put it, accidentally build a business. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:19:08]: Yes. I think I blogged about this and shared a bit on my podcast, but I think it's good to share the full breadth of the story. I mean, not too long. I swear. I won't be too long winded because it was difficult not just in the doing but the unweaving and rebuilding of my identity. And so it started with applying for a position that I did not receive that was gutting and required me to reconsider and it was an internal position. And I looked around and I there was nowhere else on campus that I could see myself which also scared the heck out of me because I was 6 months into a doc program. I was like, well, is this place even for me? And my husband and I were out for a run. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:19:51]: I all of a sudden just start crying uncontrollably. He's like, did you fall? And he knew I was kind of having a hard time. And he's like, we're okay. Like, what if you just did school? And I'm like, who you. I've been working since I was 12. Work is my identity. I grew up in a low income and middle class family in Wyoming. My grandparents are all ranchers. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:20:13]: Like, work is what we do. It was never even a consideration of not doing. I sat on it for a couple of months and it started to grow on to me. So, honestly, it even started with the idea and so that might resonate with some listeners of what it means to just do school full time and not be contributing to your family or needing to take out other resources, that that internal struggle is real and validated. But then what I didn't anticipate was leaving my job then and the excitement and the going away parties that then went away in 2 months and I completely was in a free fall. My mental health, you know, you can that I discovered panic attacks and anxiety? And I've always, I think, had anxiety, but it cracked open, again, just doing school. And I had busied myself so much. Again, queen of committees. Put me in everything. Do everything. Output. So I blogged every day for 50 days and just poured myself into Twitter now x, where I found a community where student affairs used to be very active Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:21:30]: Of colleagues, friends, and just continue to go there. That was, like, my water cooler. And by the time I graduated, I was already starting to get invited to do speaking because I was blogging my coursework and you could still do this. Set up a substack and share what you wrote about on Black board, like or it literally could be, this is a quote from my paper that you did because that's how I just started to share the work I was doing. I was still terrified that what I was doing wasn't real or worthy. So I picked up, like, 4 adjunct positions at once and doing some speaking on the side. But I always had this, I need a plan b. So I'm still looking at jobs. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:22:15]: I'm, like, doing the speaker circuit thing. And it wasn't until, honestly, a couple years before the pandemic that I finally said, Josie, you need to make a commitment. Is this a business? Are you in or you're out? Because mentally, it's also tormenting. And so then I did. I've I I mean, I literally took out, like, a license that, you know, like I'm incorporated now and, brought on people to help me. And I just think to acknowledge and not to scare people of, like, you make this transition, there might be mental health impacts, like, things that were kind of already residing that I would say have resources ready for you at the ready and to bet on yourself too. I didn't bet on myself early enough because honestly, I think people listening in higher ed will get this. We're a perfectionist. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:23:07]: We don't want to fail. And I was scared if I called it a business and it didn't make it, then I was gonna be a failure. And that held me back though for what could've and is coming to be. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:19]: You've said a couple of things that I I think are really important to touch back to. And the first is that I think in student affairs, especially, there's a lot of identity wrapped up in the profession, in a job title, in a job function. I think that's partly because the outside world doesn't grasp the profession. And a lot of times, our own families and partners don't grasp the profession, and so we kind of hang on to the identity maybe a little bit tighter than other professions may. And so letting go of that is not just transitioning a career. It's figuring out where that piece of you goes or what happens to it, after you transition. That's a big one. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:23:59]: Well, and some of that is not knowing what box to check. NASCLA only just recently added a consultant membership or, you know, or I wouldn't be able to go to certain things. I had to have a campus affiliation and there was a sense of it wasn't embarrassment but I was very fearful people were gonna see me as an outsider, that I was gonna be cold calling them and so, I also I've always been centered in community and relationships which, so I've been doing sales but in a heart centered way because I need to work. I need to make it. I'm going to make this work. Right? But I had to do a lot of money stuff on weaving some of that money mindset things in order to build a business, that wasn't that was going to be productive. In higher ed very much. There's an entrepreneurship element to your transition and higher ed very much. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:59]: There's an entrepreneurship element to your transition story. I have a friend who researches entrepreneurship. They're an assistant professor in the College of Business, and that's kind of their their area of research. And they have found through their research that the most successful entrepreneurs are the ones who tilt in a 100%, the ones who actually take away their safety net, which is the most terrifying thing that you can do. But it sounds like that's what you did. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:25:23]: Yeah. You should have sent me that article. Yeah. And I think just even not saying I'm my only identity is entrepreneur, but not resisting that. And I don't have an MBA. I swear I don't know what I'm doing half the time on business side, but I'm seeking out different types of mentors. And I'm also finding others, and you're one of them now, in a different type of way that we need our own resources as campus partners in community, in how we can transform the industry too because it needs to be done from the outside. And it's not outside in a negative way. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:25:59]: It's actually more it's gonna be more impact full in the end. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:03]: Let's talk about that transition to being a CEO, so your your own boss and your own employee, but also a person who's driving their own schedule, driving when you work and when you don't, setting your own limits, deciding when enough is enough for a day, a week or a month, that feels really overwhelming to me, just looking at the lack of limit and needing to self impose as a person who also drives with a lot of purpose. How did you figure that out? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:26:30]: Oh, trial and error and lots of therapy and hiring a coach. Mhmm. So I brought on a business coach and you'll just laugh at me what she caught on quickly that I was a workaholic that especially when the business wasn't doing well, to me, you just work more. It's almost like your punishment then. You have to work every single day. And one of her first homework assignments was, she's like, I want you to take every Sunday off. And I looked at her. We negotiated it to one Sunday off a month. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:27:00]: That's what I negotiated it down. I'm embarrassed. Like, I put up such a front that I couldn't even imagine what it would be to not work one day a week or what a month, let alone a whole weekend. And by the time we finished our work together, my husband and I also purchased an RV and I took off 6 weeks. So you can't sometimes we don't see how we are in our own ways. We need people and it doesn't mean you have to pay people to tell you that, but I needed that mirror because at the same time, I was completely this was toward the end of the book and, you know, we're in a pandemic. I was completely crumbling, like, the foundation was so weak and I just kept jumping on the trampoline, like, no, it's not. So I have known I've really I have to prioritize it. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:27:55]: I will edit this because it is a professional podcast. But I may be my own boss, but she can be a real bee sometimes. I have very high expectations of myself. So I need other people to help me make sure I'm staying grounded. And I've also realized that I don't like to work alone and while I'm sacrificing financially, in November, I brought on my very first full time employee which was both terrifying and exciting for someone else to be relying on you. But I'm also so strategically and to wanna grow. And but for some people listening, they might or you've already built your own person shop and that's that can be great too. We all we don't all need to turn into these big agencies or or whatever. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:28:51]: I think that's the other piece that I found. You get to define not only your time, but how you are going to structure your your business. It's so funny when you think about a dissertation is such a recipe card. Sure, you can mess it up, but, like, it is so structured. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:08]: Chapters 1 through 5, maybe 6. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:29:11]: Yeah. And then this is what you write, this is what you say, you've got this feedback. Being an entrepreneur is not a whole bunch of it. And I am a recovering control girly. And sometimes you have to let it go and sometimes you have to be like, what do I want? I could do anything today. Well, not always, but from now, I work at WeWork sometimes or I need to get out of the house more. So I also joined a gym that is right next to WeWork. Giving yourself permission to really pay attention how you work best and how Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:42]: you're gonna best make that impact. Can you talk a little bit about how your views on the profession changed from being a campus based professional to being a campus partner? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:29:51]: Oh, wow. How they have changed. Well, it is nice to see that there is more of a acknowledgment of how the work by partners, by consultants, whatever they're called, are necessary and we're not it's not just about the money or adversarial. That's been just good for my own mental health and where I fit into things. I see much more macro things happening. I mean, we were just talking, before we started recording about we're losing really great people. We that our students need those people. The the mental health weight of this work, it makes me want to do something bigger than my myself or what my business provides. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:30:35]: And so that's why a lot of my work is just trying to put good minds together, whether if that's on a panel, in a Slack channel because I can't do it all, but I just wanna connect all the people to help because it still blows my mind how many people like, they say student affairs is a small world, but it's not. Even people I'm like, wait. You don't know each other? Like, how in the world does this not happen? And that that honestly brings me more joy sometimes than, like, being asked to speak somewhere is that then I get to I mean, it's the same thing with our students, right? We get to go see what they do with the rest of their lives. I would also say it's only to a certain extent, but so many of the challenges you're facing, a million others are on their institutions to like I'm not saying normalize it, but for example, social media, I can anticipate what I'm gonna be finding in consulting or coaching and exec. We we can be so hard on ourselves. We're not far enough along. Our engagement isn't going well. Just hear it from me. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:31:29]: Like, it's all a bit of a struggle. And that could kind of be nice to hear. Like, oh, it's not just me. I feel a little and that's not just with social. It could be a variety of different topic. Oh my gosh. And honestly, what I am finding is and what I'm bummed so bummed about, even in grad school and maybe programs are doing better now. I feel like I was hid from what our admissions and enrollment people really were doing and are up against Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:31:56]: And I think we're having because especially we're seeing student affairs and enrollment pair up but I I don't know if it was the institutions I was at or where I got my grad program but, like, I feel like it was, like, we don't talk about that. That's not your place. You just focus here. And I think that's such a disservice because even when I talk to marketers or enrollment people, I'm like, y'all are y'all are doing the work of student success, right? And even they're not hearing that. Mhmm. So somewhere in our echo chambers, that is being perpetuated to continue and I think the institutions that are doing the best, sure, we've got department names and divisions are we need a collective effort. We obviously all need to do what our work or tasks are meant to do, but it's not doing a service to, like, keep people not understanding how they could make an impact on enrollment. I really appreciate you Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:50]: mentioning that because I think that aligns with a lot of my experiences as well. Even, even sitting in an ADP or a CSAO seat, you know, the enrollment side can have a level of mystique to it. And it's interesting having spent a career in higher education, and I don't think I could advise, a high school student the best way to craft their application for admissions at this point because it is, a, still a little mystical, but, b, because it's different everywhere. And that's that's interesting if you really break it down on how siloed our profession can be within itself sometimes. But when we can connect those things, the power in that is really extraordinary. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:33:34]: Right. Even within in within our campus walls, in different divisions, we we're having similar challenges of retaining a certain type of staff or again, I just I think we're missing out so many ways of going back to the beginning of humanizing the work that we do and workplace challenges in addition to students just want to learn. And no matter what the title of the department is, sometimes that bureaucracy gets in the way. And I once I love social media because it kind of doesn't care. Like, a student's gonna find what they wanna find wherever they're gonna find it no matter what the title is. And if they can't find it on your website because they probably aren't, they're gonna ask on Reddit, and it may or may not be But I would say I am excited. I am energized and I just wanna say one more thing that I haven't said that I especially say to a lot of people that come to me. They're like, I wanna start my own business. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:34:38]: I wanna be a consultant. From the beginning, I had a partner in this with me, And we have gone ebbs and flows of sometimes it's more me, sometimes it's more him in order to do this work. That is a privileged place to be in that I fully acknowledge both financially, emotionally, that I wish people could just do the thing they wanna do immediately. But there were times if I didn't have a partner, I would also have needed another job or 2 to make ends meet. And I think people need to hear it both in an ethical way, but also there are ways that you could start doing speaking consulting immediately. There's no reason that you need to do it fully as a full time thing. That would also be great for you to get experience and to see if that's something that you'd really wanna do because it's not easy either. There's some some gritty parts of it that may not be a good fit. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:29]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:35]: Thanks so much, Jill. Glad to be back in the NASPA world to let you know about some amazing things that are happening in the profession. 1st and foremost, there are a few brand new NASPA books that are in the NASPA bookstore. The first, Student Affairs Professional Preparation, A Scholar Practitioner Guide to Contemporary Topics by Jackie Clark, Jeanette Smith and Associates. This book offers unique insights into critical issues facing higher education and student affairs. It was written by a diverse team of practitioners and faculty. This comprehensive volume serves as both a primer on contemporary topics and a tool for practitioners and students. Some of the chapters in the book address HISA matters that have been central to professional preparation for decades. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:23]: Others concern aspects that are emerging and evolving in unprecedented ways. Each chapter is written by a team consisting of at least 1 practitioner and at least 1 faculty member. This intentional partnership allows for a rich conversation that addresses both professionals in practice and students and faculty in preparation programs. The content can be directly used in practice or to generate critical lively conversations in the classroom. The authors have also included excellent resources for further reading and classroom activity. The second book, Crucial Collaborations, A Practical Framework to Ensure Access, Equity, and Inclusion for students with disabilities. This was written by Neil Lipsitz, Michael Berger, and Eileen Connellberger. Ensuring access and sense of belonging for students with disabilities in higher unique organizational structure, culture, faculty, staff, and students. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:25]: This book presents a cross functional framework that administrators, faculty, access service providers, parents and guardians, and students themselves that can be used in the review and responsibilities of each stakeholder who contributes to positive post secondary experiences for students with disabilities. The groundbreaking framework has many applications, including facilitating student inclusion and socialization, empowering stakeholders through shared knowledge, and assessing the efficacy and effectiveness of institutional programs for students with disabilities. Throughout the book, the authors discuss their personal and professional experiences to animate and operationalize the framework. One other thing that I wanted to share with all of you today is a brand new book in the NASPA book store. It's a book in the NASPA book store called The Business of Student Affairs Fundamental Skills for Student Affairs Professionals written by Larry Mineta and Ellen Jay Consulting. This book is a primer on the fundamental business related aspects of student affairs that all practitioners need to know. Drawing on his 46 year career in higher education, Larry Mineta, the author, presents critical skill sets to better equip student affairs practitioner educators to analyze circumstances, alter environments, invest in structures and programs, and lead campus progress. Topics include financing and budgeting, organizational design, human resources, facilities management, technology, auxiliary operations, legal issues and risk management, crisis management, strategic planning and communications. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:58]: The key takeaways in each chapter provide further guidance to achieve success in the field. For anyone going into student affairs or new to student affairs, you may find that many of the topics in this book may not have been covered in your graduate preparation program or maybe something that you just need more insight into. And this book definitely provides you with that insight. I highly encourage you to go to the NASPA bookstore today and check it out for yourself. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways, because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself, where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:40:20]: I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association, and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:50]: Chris, thank you so much for keeping us updated on what's going on in and around NASPA. We know we just came out of annual conference, but there is still a lot more opportunities for engagement. So I appreciate you letting us know what those are. And, Josie, we have reached our lightning round. I've got 7 questions for you, 90 seconds. Ready? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:41:10]: Okay. Okay. I'm scared. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:12]: Number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:41:17]: Well, I am a conference keynote speaker. I have to pick Beyonce's new tunes. Any of the 3 that have come out recently, I think at that point, I wanted to be a swim coach. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:37]: I was a swimmer. Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:41:43]: Ed Cabellan. He brought me under his wing early, early days meeting on Twitter, and he sponsored to help me get to my very first ACPA conference to present Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:54]: with him. Number 4, your essential student affairs read. The Chronicle. Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:42:03]: Why did Tiger King immediately come to mind? It was not the best. It was just the first thing I thought of. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:42:08]: Oh my gosh. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:09]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:42:13]: Well, it is mine, Josie and the podcast, because of editing and creating. But, my Spotify rap tells me Armchair Expert is, all their different shows are super fun. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:27]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:42:31]: Oh my gosh. I think I'm especially maybe it's from the Barbie, Taylor Swift, Beyonce movement. It's a summer for women and girls, and I am also just, like, on fire about that. So I just wanna give a shout to all the women and girlies listening and, I mean, all gender unconforming identities that we need space and community and and being lifted up. And so I'm doing a lot of different groups and meetups to do things like that, but we're taking over, Jocey. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:00]: I'm so grateful to you for this 2 part episode. Again, part 1 dropped on Josie's podcast, Josie and the podcast. This is part 2 of the conversation. So if you'd like to go back and listen to part 1, go ahead and find her show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you download your podcasts. But, Josie, if folks would like to engage you as a consultant or just have a chat with you, how can they reach you? Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:43:21]: Well, you can find me at josiealquist.com, blogging, podcasting, all of the things. I am on Instagram, LinkedIn threads, x is swirling as it does. And I actually do have a TikTok, but currently it's all reactions to my husband's content, which is epic rap battles of history. So if you want that type of entertainment, you can go there. And as Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:44]: you search for Josie, so that's Alquist with an a h l q right in there. Josie, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Dr. Josie Ahlquist [00:43:53]: Thanks for having me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:57]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Cratney. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:44:31]: It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.  

Navigating Unprecedented Challenges The COVID-19 pandemic introduced a myriad set of challenges, upending the traditional norms and necessitating an urgent pivot towards empathetic leadership. Higher education, a particularly affected sector, had to swiftly evolve, fostering an environment where staff felt supported amidst the ensuing chaos. Embodying Transparency and Support Amy Hecht from FSU and Matt Imboden of Wake Forest University underline the importance of transparent communication and authentic actions from leaders. Through initiatives like FSU’s Culture and People program, leadership at these institutions exemplified the care and long-term investment in their staff’s career trajectories. Similarly, David Chao from the University of Pittsburgh highlighted a newfound focus on self-care, crucial for maintaining a balanced support system for students. Spaces for Grief and Adaptation Andy Wiegert at Washington University and Rachael Amaro of Cal State Fullerton share the vital role that organized grief spaces and an open line for support can play in sustaining staff well-being in times of loss. Melinda Stoops from Boston College emphasizes how institutional efforts to secure staff job assurance during such periods is a testament to caring leadership. Professional Development and Well-being Investment in professional growth and well-being, as recounted by Jackie Yoon from Harvard, ensures that employees feel valued and are more likely to contribute positively. The approach by Shatera Davis’s leadership at Northeastern in Seattle during the pandemic harmonizes with this by preserving jobs and maintaining a connected community despite quarantine. Leading by Example The narrative of Leanna Fenneberg from Duquesne University describes leading staff reductions with care, prioritizing a loving environment even during departures. Moreover, Darlene Robinson of Seton Hall University speaks to the strategic support provided by listening leaders who aid employees during career transitions.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of On Transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Hey, essay voices. Welcome to our second of 3 bonus episodes from the annual conference. Chris and I were able to move about the conference and talk to a couple dozen of you about your thoughts on the various foci areas. Today's question will focus on the 2nd conference focus area, which was Care in Chaos. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:42]: And the question we asked you was can you share an example of a time or a hope when a supervisor or organization provided effective care and support to employees during times of significant change or uncertainty in their careers. A lot of you had some really wonderful examples of how your organization Acquanetta Pinkard [00:01:07]: I'm Acquanetta Pinkard. I am from Montgomery, Alabama. I work for Alabama State University and I am a trio professional for 23 years. I believe that my supervisor as well as my campus have been very conscious of caring for the employees, giving us what we have need of whether that's time off, whether that's just opportunities to take a minute break, areas on campus where we could take minute breaks, and also providing just that continuum of care where we feel the liberty to be able to talk. So I think that that's what I've experienced. Taylor Cain [00:01:45]: I'm Taylor Cain. I work at the University of Georgia and serve as the director of engagement leadership and service there. Well, I mean, the one that comes most comes to mind first, most recently we had, unfortunately, 2 deaths on our campus. 1 of a former student and one of a current student. And while all of us were trying to spring into action to figure out how to care for students, in the midst of that, I was really impressed by the institution trying to find also ways to support those who were caring for those students. Our vice president for student affairs, who is newer to her role but not to our institution, made really intentional efforts to reach out to folks via email or text or when she saw them to take the time to show appreciation and care for the work that they were doing, recognizing the importance of it, but also encouraging folks to take care of themselves. And I think little acts like that go much further than some people may realize. And I think it meant the world to the staff who were doing the work. In times of crisis or difficult issues on campus, it's always really nice, I think, to have that recognition and affirmation of you're doing a great job and I'm right here beside you. But don't forget to take care of yourself too. Adrienne White [00:03:01]: I'm doctor Adrienne White. I'm the director of student success coaching at George Mason University, and I use sheher pronouns. I think my supervisor during COVID was remarkable in terms of how she supported us during certain times. And personally, during COVID, my mother was diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer. And so on top of dealing with personal things, I'm now having to also grapple with how am I supporting my team at the same time. But then, also, how am I supporting myself during all of this and putting well-being at the forefront of our work. And I was extremely blessed to have a supervisor that allowed me the autonomy to create well-being opportunities for my team, but also well-being opportunities that worked for me as well because I was my mother's primary caretaker. And so, I adjusted my schedule. Adrienne White [00:03:53]: I went on 4:10 hour workday schedule because I needed to go to all a lot of doctor's appointments and be there with her during her treatment, and that was a significant moment in my life, in my career. And having the support of my supervisor and knowing that my supervisor has my back, right, knowing that my supervisor supports the decisions I need to make to take care of myself and to my team, you just can't put a number on that. It's incredibly important and has completely transformed my thought process and my leadership as well. Susan Hua [00:04:29]: Hi. My name is Susan Hua. I use sheher pronouns, and I'm the director of diversity, equity, inclusion at the Community College of Aurora, which is an MSI HSI just outside of Denver, Colorado. A hope that I have for supervisors or organizations to provide effective care and support to employees is to really just be intentional about how they are mentoring and having conversations with their employees during times of uncertainty during their careers. I think it's helpful to understand and really holistically look at your employees instead of just seeing them as one role or one fraction of your department, and to really understand that they have lives outside of the field as well, and to understand how to support their whole selves in the work journey that they have. Aileen Hentz [00:05:09]: My name is Aileen Hentz. I'm at the University of Maryland as the program director of academic and student services. I think constant communication was very important during times, especially when we're looking at budget cuts, furloughs, when we're looking at possible changing in policy that could have an impact on our office or our jobs. Just not being left in the dark was incredibly important, I think. So that kinda constant communication, opening things up. I loved when my supervisor was like, you know, I'm not supposed to tell you all this, but I'm gonna tell you anyway because I feel like you need to know. And that was really helpful for me when we were facing some of those uncertainties. Stephen Rice [00:05:49]: Stephen Rice, director of the Office of Community Expectations at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles, California. I've been very fortunate to have a lot of supervisors who really take the time to get to know me and provide me with the resources and support. And so when tough times happen, they're able to really provide me with that information that I need. My current supervisor, Darren, always takes the time out to really talk to me about different cases and different situations. When things go awry, cause I work in student conduct, really provides that support that I need for those of things. And as an effect of that, I'm able to do that for the team that I supervise of 6 individuals to really help them in their growth through or different times and provide them support. And it goes with 1 on 1 conversations, getting to know who they are, what they're passionate about, understanding their strengths, tapping into those strengths, seeing things that they may not see about themselves, and really getting them to to do those different things and challenging support them in the way so they are very effective, in what they do. And as a result, they have better tools when they're looking for the next step that they're able to move forward with it. Amy Adam [00:06:47]: Hi. This is Amy Adam, and I am from the University of Missouri in Columbia. I have been a student services support manager for 20 years serving graduate students. I've been so, so lucky in my 20 years with supervisors and organizations. I work in the School of Information Science and Learning Technologies. So we have mostly distant students, but all of the faculty and staff are located in the same building. Really, my first supervisor, doctor John Wedman, was one of a kind. He passed away about 9 years ago, but he really was that mentor to get me into student services and really just encouraged me to advocate for myself, advocate for my students, and to build the relationship with faculty, but to remember not to let them take advantage of me and the willingness that I have to do work. So, really, just making sure that I keep students first and foremost in my goal for my job has been the biggest thing. And really even through COVID, my current department chair has been amazing with flex time and just making sure that we take time for ourselves. You can't just sit at your desk all day. You've gotta get out, gotta get water, go take a break, go play with your dog. So I just feel very lucky that I've had that type of relationships with my supervisors. Stephanie Cochrane [00:08:14]: Hi. I'm Stephanie Cochrane. I'm the director of student services at Northeastern University in Toronto. I'm here for NASPA for just the Sunday pre conference around graduate students. That's a great question. I think COVID created a huge shift in our entire world and our way of thinking about student support, and our dean at the Toronto campus has been really effectively caring for our our employees as well as our students, thinking about hiring the correct resources, asking for input from the people who are working there and dealing with the students on a daily basis to see what our students need and keeping that student centered mindset at all times. Amy Hecht [00:08:52]: Hi. My name is Amy Hecht. I'm the vice president for student affairs at Florida State University. I've been there 7 years now. At Florida State, we've launched a new position and program called Culture and People, and it's really about helping people feel at home in Tallahassee where FSU is located, connecting to other people outside their division, celebrating people, and rewarding them, and also developing them, coaching them, and that's been very helpful for people to feel supported and valued, but also that somebody cares about their long term career trajectory. Shatera Davis [00:09:32]: Hi. My name is Shaterra Davis. I use sheher pronouns. I'm the director of student affairs at Northeastern in Seattle. I think the most recent time and then the most impactful time was during the pandemic when I worked in housing before and everyone thought that they wouldn't have a job because our students were moving out. And so our leadership did a really great job of saying this is where we're at. I'm being transparent on what the leadership conversations were and then ultimately giving us opportunities to do other work besides being, like, resident directors in order to keep our jobs and keep our housing during that time. And then doing the most to make sure that we all felt community because while we were having to quarantine, we felt that we were all by ourselves. None of us have roommates, and so being intentionally using the spaces and the meetings we had to, like, build communities, check-in, and still just being transparent on where we're at and, like, how we're supporting students, but also how we're supporting ourselves during that time. Andy Wiegert [00:10:25]: I am Andy Wiegert, Director of Graduate Student Affairs, Arts and Sciences, Washington University in Saint Louis. Gosh. Yeah. I mean, we've kind of seen a lot in our time. Obviously, having gone through COVID is the one that stands out the most, but we've also recently experienced things like, you know, a tragic death of a student. And that's really difficult because you have administrators who are both trying to support students, but at the same time are also experiencing their own grief and trauma. And so it really has been neat to see some of our leaders recognize that, acknowledge that, and create spaces not just for our students to grieve, but also for our staff, our faculty, and support folks. Scott Peska [00:11:10]: Hi. Scott Peska, Waubonsee Community College, assistant provost of student services. I would say that this was a few years back, quite a few years back when I worked in res life, but I recall when 911 took place right there was some real challenge with direction during that time and really giving staff the space to not only help their students go through and kind of process, but to give us time to process individually was really important. And to really think about you're gonna deal with a lot of crisis management in higher education. And so are you prepared for this? You need to get yourself in a space to do that. And so being able to give us time to actually give us strategies, talk to people that were crisis managers and kinda looking at preparing that, that was helpful. Dilna Cama [00:11:53]: Dilna Cama. I am a director within student life at the Ohio State University, and I am part of the off campus and commuter knowledge community. My most recent supervisor, he did our organization was down to 2 of us, and we were essentially scratching everything and building a start up. And his support and the way he really reminded me we can do anything, we can't do everything. And that's something I remind myself each and every day. And so really keep making sure that I'm focused on what is most important has really allowed me to remain positive. And definitely the way in which he provided support, I think, was very notable. Sabina Kapoor [00:12:42]: My name is Sabina Kapoor, and I'm currently a a full time doctoral student with Capella University. I spent over 20 years in higher education as a staff within student affairs, student success, and academic affairs. So as I progressed in my career, I've focused more on staff so that they can better serve students. And I wanna go in deep with that, so that's why I'm pursuing the doctorate in IO Psychology because I wanna look at the relationship between the organization and the employee. What comes to mind is a few, the pandemic. During that time, a lot of universities were downsizing, and my university that I was at was no exception. And so it was really interesting because it was unprecedented in how many people were part of a workforce reduction. And so how the university supported people at that time, it was interesting. Sabina Kapoor [00:13:31]: I think the university really didn't know how to. And then you had the people that stayed that weren't, let go. And so I felt like they had survivor's remorse, and so it's real interesting. And so I think now is something hopefully, that won't happen again to that extent, not just my previous university, but other universities and colleges as well. But if it did, I think institutions know now how to handle that better and have that human touch. Carlie Weaver [00:14:01]: Hello. I am Carlie Weaver with Rose Hulman Institute of Technology. I'm a programs coordinator for the student activities in Union office. I'm not really sure how to answer that because I do feel like I don't really find myself being uncertain in my career because my supervisor, Kristen Merchant, hurt you, and Kristen Lloyd are very, very supportive in helping me to find my footing in my own voice and my role. Roxanne Wright Watson [00:14:31]: Hi. My name is Roxanne Wright Watson. I'm from Lehigh Carbon Community College in Pennsylvania, and I'm happy to be here. I think my direct supervisor, my dean, is supportive of what we do in the classroom, how we help our students. And in particular, a situation that I can recall is during COVID. During COVID, I think they were supportive to us in terms of having to just switch from face to face classes to online classes. The support was there. The support in getting things to instructors, supervisors did and how they helped us, the supervisors did and how they helped us as faculty. Yes. Carla Ortega Santori [00:15:27]: My name is Carla Ortega Santori. I work at Rice University. I am the strategic initiatives manager at the Door Institute For New Leaders at Rice University, and my job is really about helping students elevate their leadership capacity and to also elevate the capacity of all campuses to do really great leader developments in education. I think everyone went through significant changes in 2020. Obviously, our director and leader was really great about embracing that level of uncertainty and creating a safe space for everyone to also attend to their needs, be they professional or personal. Another big, I think, time of uncertainty or significant change was when we changed directors, and I think both the outgoing and incoming directors were really great at defining our roles and clarifying expectations really clearly, so that was really helpful. Laying out a vision and also being okay with if we needed to change that vision or significantly alter it to accommodate our current needs was also really helpful. Rachael Amaro [00:16:41]: I'm Rachael Amaro. I'm the admissions and academic advisor for the Department of Educational Leadership within the College of Education at Cal State Fullerton. I think a good example of that is the faculty who's the director of our EDD program. We had a really rough patch in our department, you know, between the faculty. The faculty were having issues with each other, which of course, the students pick up on, everybody picks up on. It makes the whole environment a little challenging, but my EDG director was always very level headed and very understanding and always open to saying, hey, if there's something going on, like, please let me know, like, don't, you know, don't keep things. It's important that I know what's happening so that we can all figure out what is going on and how everybody's feeling, at least in the office side, because the fact are gonna be themselves. They were having some issues with each other. Rachael Amaro [00:17:29]: The staff, obviously, we were okay with each other, but obviously it all affects everything, so I really appreciated her always being so confident and always so caring and open, and always checking in and making sure we were doing okay when we had some rough times with our own leadership within our department, she was always the one person that we knew we could count on. And, you know, she's the one person that asks how you're doing, Jess, how your parents are doing. It's just those simple acts make a big difference. Christine Wilson [00:17:59]: I'm Christine Wilson. I am in student affairs at UCLA. I have two roles. 1 is as the executive director for academic partnerships and the other is the program director for our director for our masters in student affairs program. I saw the leadership of our student affairs organization exhibit tremendous humility and vulnerability directly after the pandemic when there had been some things that were not seen that impacted fairly large number of staff, and they were unseen largely because of the pandemic. It was much harder to get a pulse on what was happening, and what was happening did impact a lot of people. And in order to heal that, our leadership really had to show tremendous humility and vulnerability. And the fact that they did that allowed the healing to begin to happen. And a year later, the organization was healthier, even maybe a little better for what they've learned. Olivia Ruggieri [00:18:53]: Hi there. My name is Olivia Ruggieri. I'm the associate director of administration operations for Northeastern University Seattle campus. I grew up in Pennsylvania, went to college in Florida, and came out here in 2013, but I've been working for the university since since 2018. I would say that right now, there's a big shift towards, not centralization, but standardization of policies across our network of campuses. And so while for folks, at my level, like the ops leads on our campuses, we already do a lot of coordination between each other. We know each other well. But for the folks on our teams, like our operation specialists, our event specialists, they had not yet built their network with each other. Olivia Ruggieri [00:19:34]: And so, coming out of our Vancouver campus, someone named Kayla organized a, mentoring, like, work group for all of those folks, which has been really amazing. So now, folks who are new to the org are mentored by folks who have been here a little bit longer. Those folks are mentored by people that whose roles they might be interested in the future, and I've found that this has helped some of that standardization that's coming across all of our campuses, and we're gonna be well equipped for the future. Christle Foster [00:20:05]: Hi. My name is Christle Foster and I'm from Chesapeake College located on the Eastern Shore of Maryland in Y Mills. I'm gonna point to the pandemic since it's so recent and I will say that our leadership at Chesapeake was very responsive and one of the things that they definitely emphasized was care. Self care as well as caring for our students and I've seen that change even when we returned to the college. With the CARES funds that we have, a lot of it was allocated to students who are going through mental health challenges as well as financial challenges, food insecurity, housing insecurity, and there was a lot of response in which those funds were put to, trying to retain those students and also help those students over those challenges. Nathalie Waite Brown [00:20:46]: My name is Nathalie Waite Brown. I am the assistant dean of students and director for graduate student life at Stevens Institute of Technology located in Hoboken, New Jersey. From a personal perspective, the institution that I worked at when I joined a few years following, we had a new president that came to the institution, and it was during a time where there was a lot of turmoil. And I believe that the leadership that remained really was committed to retaining staff and faculty in a way that was intentional and purposeful, not just for our students, but also for the climate of the employees and welcoming and supporting the new president. And that's something that's been impactful in my career. That was 11 years ago, and it it's still something that resonates with me. Dae'lyn Do [00:21:28]: My name's Dae'lyn Do. I use sheher pronouns, and I am the associate director for the Women in Science and Engineering Residence Program at the University of Michigan, and I am coming into the position of the WISA CASE co chair. I mean, I have been lucky to have some really great supervisors in my career and definitely supervisors who focus on that work life balance and really making sure that they're taking care of their employees and not giving them time for themselves when they've had like a high busy time. Making sure that we're building in those days and those breaks for ourselves, whether it's in the day to day or whether it's in the busier seasons. I feel like I have been really lucky to rely on some great supervisors who just really prioritize that and know that we are workers outside of we're people outside of our jobs too. Natalie DeRosa [00:22:18]: So my name is Natalie DeRosa and I'm from Lehigh Carbon Community College in Schnecksville, Pennsylvania. So my supervisor has been an amazing support for me personally when some of my programming had the plug bolt on it this year, and being that space where I can just grieve that that happened, that meant a lot to me. And also, we're still looking for ways to bring back the programming. I work at a community college, so sustaining programming is always a challenge for us. So being able to talk to my supervisor about it and have her be just right there as we're experiencing it has lended a lot of support to me professionally. Dan Volchek [00:22:58]: Dan Volchek, assistant dean of student success at Harvard Griffin Grad School of Arts and Sciences. My relationship with expect that and hope that in a supervisor. So as we're going through changes and uncertainty, both professionally in the career and at the institution, they were working as a team and they were talking. And sometimes that has happened and sometimes that hasn't, but that's a very important way to get through when issues come up. Vaughn Calhoun [00:23:31]: Vaughn Calhoun, Seton Hall University, hehim. I think, interestingly, you know, coming out of the pandemic, we were so used to being at home for 2 years and then coming back to campus with the thought of we're gonna be there a 100% of the time when literally our lives have readjusted based on on the pandemic. So one thing I advocated for was a work from home policy. We didn't have one across the institution. It was based on each department. So putting together a proposal, which was then accepted by our vice president and saying that, you know, this is what we can do. So that, I think, was really powerful because our staff knew and got the message that our executive administrators care. Darlene Robinson [00:24:14]: My name is Darlene Robinson. I'm the RISE general and director for Seton Hall University. I can speak to that in a sense that being that I'm just moving in to this career, I spent over 15 years in the financial aid department, and I just moved over to student services. And with this move, the supervisor that I currently have now has been very strategic in listening to me as a person, asking questions of how and what I need, and how he can be of service as well as influence. Whatever it is that I need to do my job in the Miguel Angel Hernandez [00:24:59]: Hello. My name is Miguel Angel Hernandez. I am the associate vice president and dean of students at San Francisco State University. I have been very fortunate as a individual to have had amazing mentors, supervisors, sponsors throughout my career. Faculty members that have really taught me, guided me, coached me at different aspects of my career. And so when I think about a specific time, the easy place for me is thinking about what we as a community, as a planet, have navigated these last 4 plus years of COVID through that particular global crisis. I think about the patience, the openness, the modeling that I saw from supervisors, from organizational leaders related to bringing people in, leaning in to the moment, to what individuals needed, and really giving us the capacity to rethink how we approach work, life, care, concern for each other and for the students that we serve. And so one of the things that I work very hard to do is not to romanticize that global crisis, but I am trying to make sure that I don't forget the lessons that were learned from the flexibility, the love, and the care that we demonstrated to each other to be able to navigate that time and that space.  And so that would be something that I saw both from supervisors and from organizations. I hope that we continue to allow those experiences to be centered as we move forward in our work. David Chao [00:26:29]: Hello. My name is David Chow. My pronouns are hehim. I serve as the director of IT for student affairs at the University of Pittsburgh, and I'm also the chair of the technology knowledge community. For sure during COVID, I think everyone became so much more attentive towards self care. And I'm not even just in higher education, I feel just like in the workplace in general, everyone just seemed to be working harder than their parents type mentality. And I think since then we've understood about the balance that, you know, we can't assist our students and serve them if we don't take care of ourselves as well. And some of the advice we give to them, we should probably take as well. Melinda Stoops [00:27:01]: Hi. I am Melinda Stoops. I serve as the associate vice president for student health and wellness at Boston College. In terms of looking at times when there's been significant change or and uncertainty in everyone's life. And in higher education, there were just all of us going home for periods of times and uncertainty in what our roles were in specific moments when everyone's off campus. How are our roles different, and what can we do to contribute, and what are we needed to do to contribute? And I feel like that that was a time where there was a lot of uncertainty, and I think one thing I appreciated about that was my institution's stance of there's a lot of uncertainty, but we are really going to make a real point to care for our employees during this time. Now with that said, again, we were off campus, so caring can show up in different ways. But feeling like they were like, we are concerned about employees. We wanna make sure that you all are healthy, that you all know that your job is secure, and just that really that in and of itself went a long way. And it felt so fortunate because I know not everyone was in that same position, and I felt very privileged to be able to receive that support from my employer. I know that my colleagues on my campus were as well. Derek Grubb [00:28:26]: Derek Grubb, Dean of Enrollment Management for Red Rocks Community College in Colorado. I've been fortunate to have a lot of supervisors and colleagues I think that I've learned from how to be effective, but one more recently was past president. Really taught me the value valuing people, celebrating even the small wins, and really how that promoted a environment of caring, great place to work mindset. Matt Imboden [00:28:50]: My name is Matt Imboden. I use the he, him pronouns. I serve as the chief student services officer in the School of Business at Wake Forest University in North Carolina. And, for the past few years, I've also been chairing the administrators and graduate and professional student services knowledge community for NASPA. So I'm sure there'll be some point at which my mind doesn't completely shift to the COVID experience when somebody asked this kind of a question, but I am not at that point yet. So my mind as you were speaking, Chris, went immediately to COVID as a time that I think revealed leadership or lack thereof depending on the experience. But that's exactly one of those stressors I just talked about in terms of uncertainty that you were talking about because my goodness. I remember feeling particularly impacted when people walk the walk and just didn't talk the talk of either high level administrators who personally sacrificed in the face of budget cuts to touch their own compensation or to really demonstrate not just sort of with words, but showed me that they're in this too and that makes you want to give as an individual and I think role model that for other people on your campus. And so that stands out for me of throughout all that COVID uncertainty when all of us were pulling out the depths of our leadership ability and administrative capabilities just to see people who, went beyond the talk and really walked the walk of leadership. Evette Castillo Clark [00:30:01]: Evette Castillo Clark, vice president for student life and dean of students at Lewis and Clark College, Portland, Oregon. I'll think of myself in this as a supervisor. When you can't give or when I can't give the gift of money, I know that in times of need or support to my team, I'm gonna give the gift of time. So when I look at them, if my team or my staff are exhausted, I always talk to them about tag in and tag out. If you need the time or you need the break, me as a supervisor, I have to be very understanding of that. If you can't always offer additional monies for stipend, you gotta give the gift of time. And you have to understand that people need to regroup, and people need people need time to refuel and regain their energy. So in times like this, campus climate issues, post pandemic breaks are needed, and I think I also have to model that as well. Madeline Frisk [00:30:56]: I started this job at Portland State in 2021, was working remotely up until the fall term. I started in the spring term at our institution, so navigating that shift from remote to in person and also having colleagues that I'd basically just met in person was definitely a difficult time for me, but my boss was very supportive and everyone was very welcoming. I found a community both with our union on campus as well as with my co workers and boss, and that was a great experience being initiated into a really wonderful community at Portland State. Gene Zdziarski [00:31:32]: This is Gene Jarski. I'm vice president for student affairs at DePaul University.  I can think of a couple of situations. I will go back 25 years to Texas A&M University when I was a young staff member there, and we had an unfortunate tragedy of our traditional bonfire collapsing. And, 12 individuals were killed and 27 others were seriously injured. And the amount of attention and care that was taken by the institution beginning with the president who came in and basically said to all of us who were trying to respond and trying to work with the situation, I don't care how much it costs. I don't I want you to do the right thing. I want you to do whatever it takes to take care of people, and that was such a reassuring thing as you're trying to manage through such a challenging time, and so, for me, that was a significant moment. Gene Zdziarski [00:32:36]: I also had one when I was at DePaul University, and we had a speaker come to campus that really, disrupted the campus community tremendously. I had actually recommended to the president at that time that being a private institution, we could make some decisions about whether or not this speaker really should come to campus. And he said at the moment, no. I think we need to have a process, a plan for that, but we're not in that place right now. I think we need to go ahead and do this. After it happened and there was a lot of backlash from the campus community, he stood by me the entire time and worked with me in meeting with all the different constituencies, stakeholders, and student groups to really listen, hear people out, and then help us begin to build a plan for how we would address that in the future, and that was pretty significant to me. Lyza Liriano [00:33:22]: Hello. My name is Lyza Liriano. I currently serve as an area coordinator at DePaul University in housing and residence Life. Originally, I am from Brooklyn, New York. Yes. So prior to my role at DePaul, I worked at the University of South Florida, Tampa, and this was only about 2 years ago when there was a lot of political change happening in Florida, and impacted my identities as a queer woman of color. I didn't feel safe being in Florida, but my supervisors at the University of South Florida specifically provided me with hope knowing that I would be safe at my institution, and not only that, that I could still be there for my students. No matter what legislation was saying, we still wanted to build that community and make sure that our students really felt like their needs were being heard. And so I felt that as a professional, and we kind of instilled it to all of our student body as well. So although I did end up leaving, I left knowing that my students were in great hands. Jackie Cetera [00:34:24]: Jackie Cetera. I use sheher pronouns, and I serve as the director of residential education at Bucknell University in Pennsylvania. For this, examples of when this has worked out really well has been when administrators and leaders within the institution really important for leaders to pour into their people and provide guidance even when it might be really hard to do so. Providing space to talk through situations and scenarios and to keep people informed is really, really important. Lisa Landreman [00:35:09]: My name is Lisa Landreman. I'm the vice president for student affairs at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon. I think that COVID is the best example. I feel really proud as an organization, as an institution, how much we held space for our employees, that we gave regular frequent communication as a team of people who were managing the crisis, particularly early on. We did really regular communication. We stayed abreast of what was happening in the world. We thought well about our community. We allowed a lot of flexibility with work even though we were in person for our students. Lisa Landreman [00:35:46]: We gave options both for students and employees to do hybrid work or remote work as needed. I think we also gave a lot of flex to parents who were or people who had family members they were caring for, and so I think we were clear about our expectations for, you know, maybe some of our goals were on hold because we were tending to what was most immediately important and what was reasonable to ask people to accomplish at a time when we were all caring so much in our personal and professional lives. I think that was a way that I was really proud of how we managed that. Jackie Yun [00:36:22]: Hi. I'm Jackie Yun. I take the she series, and I serve as the executive director of the Harvard Griffin GSAS Student Center. Sure. I think I've been lucky at my institution that they have invested heavily in my professional development, and I have been able to go to them and say, I want to learn this thing. This is how I think this connects to what I do. And maybe in some cases, it doesn't always really connect, but they understand that providing me the support to keep learning and to try new things keeps me at the institution and keeps me doing good work for graduate students. Leanna Fenneberg [00:36:55]: Hello. This is Leanna Fenneberg. I'm the incoming chief student affairs officer at Duquesne University. I think so many of our institutions are going through reductions in force. I've personally, been impacted by those, and I've had to lead those with staff. And those are some of the most critical times for the people who are departing and for the community members who remain. And so I think of those difficulties as we all have budget reductions and how we can provide a loving supportive environment for all of the employees, even those who are directly affected in helping them support in their next journey and making difficult decisions and communicating those, but doing that in a ethic of care and concern for the individual and providing that kind of supportive community during some of our most difficult times. Jake Murphy [00:37:41]: Jake Murphy. I'm the director of prospective students services at OSU Institute of Technology, and I am over all recruitment and retention efforts at the university. Probably best example is my most recent position with a supervisor. I've just been in the role like about 2 years now. The university had been in a perpetual decline of enrollment for the last 10 years and it was morale was low. Everything was like absolutely terrible and my supervisor employed strategies to make sure that since we can't necessarily pay people the best in student affairs affairs sometimes, that she gave us the opportunity to use whatever time we needed to be felt supported and it really helped all of, like, bolster morale and just helped us avoid burnout which was great. Larry Pakowski [00:38:29]: Larry Pakowski. I'm the vice president for student engagement, inclusion and success at Aims Community College in Greeley, Colorado. I think COVID is a good example for us all that we all shifted to a remote environment overnight, and then some schools came back sooner, some schools came back later. And I think it was really an exercise in making sure that we not only forgot our people, but also the mission of the college and ensuring that we were doing what we needed to do by students, but also our employees as well. Jillaine Zenkelberger [00:38:56]: Hi. I'm doctor Jillaine Zenkelberger. I am the program coordinator over at Graduate Student Life at the University of Notre Dame. Yeah. So actually, a really good example is this year, we have a new dean of our grad school, Mike Hildreth at University of Notre Dame. And with any new head, new leadership, there's always, like, oh, what is this gonna mean for changes in our programs? But he's really taken the time to, like, sit down and listen to what our offices need and what our students need so that not only are we addressing students' concerns, but we're doing it in a way that's practical for us as employees. Because I think that sometimes we focus only on one side of initiatives and forget, like, well, somebody has to do it and has to have the capacity to do it. I think he's done a really good job and our team at the grad school has done a really good job of keeping those two things in mind. Kristen Merchant [00:39:49]: Hi, everyone. I'm Kristen Merchant. I am from Rose Hulman Institute of Technology. I am the associate director of the union and student Activities Office there and also the director of our lead programs. So my boss's name is also Kristen, but her name is Kristen Lloyd. She always just supports us with whatever we need, asks how we're doing. If she can sense that we're kind of feeling burnt out or tired or exhausted, she always takes the time to check-in with us us and give us some extra time off if we need it, and she just always helps make sure that we feel confident in our roles, and that just makes me feel very, very supported and confident in my roles. Joe Lizza [00:40:25]: My name isDr. Joe Lizza. I'm the director of the Chamberlain Student Center and Campus Activities at Rowan University in New Jersey. When I was a few years within my first full time job, I knew I wanted some type of change, and I had very supportive supervisors that provided me those opportunities knowing that the growth at the time in my current role and maybe the growth at the institution wasn't necessarily there, but they gave me some tools both through mentoring, but also through professional development opportunities to kinda seek out that next step. And they were just very upfront. I feel like sometimes people kinda string you along. They were very upfront to say, we love your work. You're doing a great job, but maybe your next step is not here. And they really provided that support to look elsewhere, which ultimately then allowed me for advancement outside of that original institution. Joshua Allred [00:41:19]: My name is Joshua Allred. I work at Louisiana State University in the College of Agriculture as their manager of student services. Sure. So we had a a pretty significant restructuring in our office a while back, like, about a year ago when our assistant dean left. And I work in an academic affairs unit so they took that time to really kind of restructure and move some pieces around. And so there was an uncertainty in terms of, are our jobs secure? Are our jobs moving around? Are we gonna have some significant changes in, like, what are what's under the purview of our our jobs. And again, I think having strong leadership and having them assure us and and talk through us the entire time as things were being discussed and actually listening to our input and getting feedback from us about our experiences being kind of the boots on the ground people working with students, I thought was really helpful and thoughtful. I think sometimes frustration, especially in uncertainty and during times of change, comes from folks at the top who don't necessarily have the most recent experience working with students in, like, a really direct way, making these really big sweeping decisions and not always taking into consideration the opinions and the feedback from folks who are doing just that. Joshua Allred [00:42:25]: Wow. So one of the things I continue to do is try to be innovative and think what's next? What more can I do to support students and support student success? I don't wanna come in and do the same programs over and over again. I want to do my best to collaborate, whether it's with my partners in academic affairs or my partners in student affairs. But whenever uncertainty comes, then that says, how do I make sure that students are successful? Because in uncertainty, they wanna make sure that what you're doing is supporting student success. So that's what I do. At Texas A&M, specifically, we just had a major change in who our president is, and we changed from the College of Education to the School of Education and Human Development. There were a lot of the professionals within the College of Education and Human Development who weren't happy with that change and thought that our peers around the country would look at us and say, School of Education and Human Development, we're a college, we do more, we're a research one institution, why is that happening with us? And, again, during that time of change and that time of uncertainty, our focus in the Burns Center was how do we make sure that we are supporting our students and making sure our students are successful? How do we make sure those persistence and retention and graduation rates continue to stay high and how can we raise them? Judy Traveis [00:43:58]: Hi, everyone. I'm Judy Traveis. I'm the associate dean for the Graduate Student Success Center at the University of Florida. I would say recently, I'm from the University of Florida and the Florida landscape has been impacted greatly with big issues in the DE and I space. And I think throughout it all, leadership had town hall meetings and general counsel available to help shape and create our programs so that they can live in the new world. Katie Caponera [00:44:31]: I'm Katie Caponera, director of student life at Harvard Divinity School. This past academic year has been one of the most challenging that I've experienced in my 15 years in higher ed, and I know it's been challenging on many campuses. It's felt particularly difficult at Harvard. We're very much in the national spotlight, but I think that what's helped me get through those challenging pieces and times have been the supportive colleagues and my supervisor who's been amazing at checking in and keeping everybody up to date on what's going on, talking through what we may be facing, and being very clear about what expectations are and what strategies are to approach what may be coming to us given the different types of uncertainty and and challenge that are present. Kathy Dilks [00:45:19]: My name is Kathy Dilks, and I am the director of graduate student and post doctoral affairs at the Icahn School of Medicine, the Graduate School of Biomedical Sciences. Supervisors have always been very, very helpful. I think one of the best tips they've ever given me is perception is reality. So anytime that I come with questions or uncertainties or even in my professional outlook, I remember that one phrase over and over again, and I strive to put my best foot forward if I've always had the luxury of working with other people who are able to answer questions, able to guide me along the way. Julie Payne Kirchmeier [00:45:58]: Julie Payne Kirchmeier, vice president for student success for the u Indiana University. It's not really a system. It's a multi campus university, but we can say Indiana University System if that's easier for folk to kinda place the role. It keeps me steady as a leader and as a member of an organization. It keeps me steady. And be vulnerable, as we talked about. It's a harder one to answer, I think, because particularly the past 4 years have just been so upside down for all of us. And so finding examples of care and support in such an uncertain time, relating back to question 1, is really hard. Julie Payne Kirchmeier [00:46:30]: But I will name a moment, and it was pre the disruption that we all know of COVID, but it was so fundamental and so just roiling with uncertainty is when I was at Northwestern as the associate vice president and chief of staff, and our vice president passed away. Beloved, long, long battle with cancer, and I will say her name, Patricia Theus Urban, an icon in our field. And it was one of those moments you knew eventually was coming, but it doesn't make it any easier. And the pain and the shock and just the sadness that just infiltrated the division and the campus, and there was a lot of burden that was put on our division to plan her memorial and a whole host of things. So, you know, like, good student affairs professionals, we just jump in and get it done. But during that time, we really tried to provide spaces, conversations, moments, touch points, remembrances of her, and not just at the memorial. We would take moments throughout the coming year to pause, to remember, to talk about, to laugh, to, you know, all the things that you wanna do to move through a really painful time. And, you know, I can look back on it, and that was 5 almost 5 years ago now, which is kind of mind blowing. Julie Payne Kirchmeier [00:47:40]: And I'm really proud and honored to have been part of a community that did that for each other. I'm not gonna stand here and say it was me. I'm not gonna stand here and say it was a small group. It really was that full community of student affairs that came together and did that. I think one of the sad things for me is that you don't often see that happen outside of student affairs in higher education, and I think we've got to do better Julie Payne Kirchmeier [00:47:59]: as an Julie Payne Kirchmeier [00:47:59]: industry, as a field, in industry, as a field in remembering that we have to show up for each other in these really important ways, large and small. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:48:10]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:49:03]: Catch you next time.

Welcome to NASPA's SA Voices From the Field Podcast where we delve into discussions that shape the future of higher education and student support. In today's post, we reflect on the poignant insights from Dr. Joisanne Rodgers, Director of Contemporary Student Services at George Mason University, who recently graced our podcast episode. **Bridging Gaps: From First-Gen Student to Student Advocacy** Dr. Rodgers' noteworthy journey from a security-seeking first-generation college student to a beacon for inclusive education mirrors the ambitions of many striving to find belonging within academia's halls. Her multifaceted career path exemplifies how diverse experiences can coalesce into a powerful drive for institutional change. Rodgers' role at George Mason University is not just about administration; it's about forging connections with and for students who have traditionally been on the periphery of college life support structures. **Language Evolution: A Step Toward Inclusion** The evolution from 'non-traditional' to 'post-traditional' student terminology that Dr. Rodgers discusses signifies an important shift in the higher education lexicon. By moving towards more inclusive language, institutions like George Mason University acknowledge the changing demographics of their student bodies and the unique challenges these students face, underscoring a commitment to support that encompasses not just academic, but life success. **A Supportive Community: More Than Just Space** Dr. Rodgers highlights that creating physical and conceptual spaces for students to flourish is paramount. George Mason University's community spaces, unique ambassador positions, and appreciation events underscore an approach that sees students not as secondary participants in their education but as central figures with rich, intricate narratives expanding beyond the classroom. **Post-Traditional Pioneering: A University's Role** The university isn't just leading the charge through in-house initiatives but is contributing to the broader dialogue on supporting post-traditional students, partnering with organizations such as NASPA. These partnerships foster a crucial exchange of best practices and innovative ideas, equipping institutions to better serve their diverse student populations. **Looking Forward** As Dr. Rodgers and many other advocates for contemporary students make clear, universities have an opportunity and responsibility to adapt, evolve, and provide equitable support. This not only benefits post-traditional students but enriches the entire educational community. Their successes aren't just personal triumphs; they are milestones in the progress towards a more inclusive, holistic approach to higher education.    TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Welcome back for our next episode of essay voices from the field, where once again we were able to sit down with a guest at the NASPA annual conference. I'm pleased to introduce you today to doctor Joisanne Rogers, sheher. Joisanne is a first generation college student, a post traditional student, a life long learner, and an educator passionate about post traditional and contemporary students. Doctor Rogers has worked in higher education for nearly 20 years in various roles, including admissions and recruitment, advising and success coaching, housing and residence life, marketing and outreach, retention initiatives, and student success initiatives. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:55]: She currently serves as director of contemporary student services at George Mason University in Virginia. Doctor Rogers leads a fantastic team of advocates and champions, serving Mason's contemporary student population. This team collaborates and partners throughout the Mason community to support contemporary student belonging, thriving and success. The team are proud recipients of the bronze level 2023, 2024, NASPA Excellence Award in commuter, off campus, military connected, non traditional, and related. Doctor Rogers also serves as an adjunct associate professor at University of Maryland Global Campus, where she earned outstanding adjunct faculty designation as an alumni volunteer at Algany College in Pennsylvania. Doctor Rogers earned a bachelor's in political science and dance studies from Alghany College, a master's in student affairs and higher education from Western Kentucky University, a specialist in leadership from American College of Education, and a doctorate in leadership with a focus on higher education from American College of Education. Her research interests include post traditional and contemporary students, mitigation and elimination of institutional barriers, and student success and retention. Welcome to essay voices, Joisanne. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:58]: Thank you. I'm glad to be here. And thank you so much for taking time out of your conference schedule to sit with us here in Seattle. Joisanne Rodgers [00:02:04]: Absolutely. It's delightful rainy weather, So glad to hang out with you for a bit. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:09]: This is my hometown and, you know, people are always like, oh, it must rain a lot in Seattle. I'm like, oh, not really. And I really appreciate that Seattle's like showing out for you all with the rain today. Joisanne Rodgers [00:02:20]: It's true. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:20]: We also may get to be dodging a protest for a different organization today. So, you know, all sorts of eventful things happening in Seattle. Joisanne Rodgers [00:02:28]: Well, coming from DC, I'm I'm a pro.  Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:30]: Oh, the other Washington. Yeah. The other Washington. The other Washington. Joisanne Rodgers [00:02:33]: We got it covered. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:33]: I do when I say I'm from Washington, people go DC and I'm like, no. State. The other other farther away one. But we're really looking forward to learning from you today about your transition story into higher education from an arts background. That's something that you and I share in common. My bachelor's degree is in music performance. And weird fun fact, I used to teach top classes to pay for college. So Nice. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:55]: So I'm really looking forward to hearing that from you. We got to know you a little bit at the top of the show through your bio, but we always love to start with asking our guests how you got to your current seat. Joisanne Rodgers [00:03:03]: Sure. So first of all, I'm a 1st generation college student, and so I went to undergrad not far from where I grew up. A little bit of safety in that. I knew the institution, knew the campus. And so not knowing much of anything else, that was where I was going. I had friends who went there. So I went to Allegheny College as an undergraduate, majored in political science, and minored in dance studies. Joisanne Rodgers [00:03:29]: I taught community ballroom classes.  Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:32]: So I love this. I love this so much. Yeah. Joisanne Rodgers [00:03:35]: And then I figured out while I was there. I went in, wanting to be a lawyer. That's what I was gonna do. And non spoiler spoiler alert, that's not what I'm doing as I'm on the NASPA podcast. Right? And so I found that those folks that were outside of the classroom were really the folks who were making big differences in what my access and what I could do and how I thought about things and and that kind of stuff and figured out that that was a job. Yeah. Who knew? And so I started looking for programs and positions both and got hired at Western Kentucky University. So I was a full time housing residence life staff member, part time graduate student there. Joisanne Rodgers [00:04:18]: I was an assistant hall director and hall director through that, and then moved to the DC area and realized that many times there's a gap between the academic side of the house and the student affairs side of the house. Mhmm. And I wanted to collect secret decoder rings Oh. To help build those bridges. So I started looking in the DC area for positions that were maybe academic adviser positions or those kinds of things that leaned into the student affairs counseling things that I've been doing just kind of in a different way. And so I became an academic advisor that then kind of morphed into a success coach role at what was then University of Maryland University College is now University of Maryland Global Campus, and started working with post traditional students at a non traditional institution, which was very different than any experience at at the institutions I had been at, small liberal arts, regional with some global reach, into this global giant institution and learned a lot through my work there, but also connecting with colleagues and moved up and around there and decided I should probably go for that next degree because why not? Worked on my doctorate, did my research in institutional barriers for non, post traditional students, and all of that kind of came together for the position that I'm in now at George Mason University. So in 2019, George Mason University created the contemporary student services unit, which is a really innovative, first of its kind way to serve all of these different post traditional populations and the intersectionalities of all of those in a one stop shop kind of way, really. And so, like I said, it's a it's a first of its kind, and as of last Google, the only of its kind. Joisanne Rodgers [00:06:05]: So when I saw the job description, it was one of those things where I took a moment and thought, okay. Either someone is totally stalking me online and created this specifically for me, or I may have just found the job I've always been looking for. Either way, like, I sent it to my friends. I'm like, I'm not misreading this. Right? Like They wrote this for me. Joisanne Rodgers [00:06:25]: They wrote this for me. I didn't completely, like, lose total reading comprehension. Right? So, I had that moment of this is too good to be true. Right? And it wasn't, and that is fabulous. And so I applied and hired on and now work with this incredible team of folks who are dedicated to post traditional students, contemporary students off campus transfer, adult learners, student parents, veteran military connected folks, foster care alumni, system impacted folks. So it's a really great place and a really great space to be innovative and stay ahead and to use all of that background. I like to tell folks because we had a conversation about having that arts beginning that I use my dance theory and knowledge just as frequently student development. It just really depends because they both are part of the everyday process of the work that I do. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:26]: I'd like to dig into the language that you're using a little bit because I think that is an evolution and transition of how we've talked about students over 25 and students with children and etcetera, etcetera. So you're now using the term post traditional students and non traditional student is the terming that had been used for years. So tell us, about the inclusion of that new term and how it's reflective of current practice and why it's different. Joisanne Rodgers [00:07:51]: Yeah. So nontraditional, anything non. Right? You're not the usual. That makes you feel great. Right? Like, no. Am I really supposed to be here? But I don't yeah. So there's some othering about that. And so post traditional is more inclusive, still descriptive, and is coming up in the research. Joisanne Rodgers [00:08:12]: More is the the term used. And that definition of that is, yes, 25 and older, but also anyone who has adult, and I'm putting air quotes around that that you can't see, adult responsibilities. So that includes those student parents, married, widowed, divorced, military and veteran connected, although, admittedly, there's a whole another set of criteria and things going on for those folks when we talk about JSTs and all these other things. But so it's more inclusive of that in a kind of a broader umbrella, and the term, the language to it is better, in my humble opinion, for that population. But then elevating that even more, talking about contemporary students at Mason, and our definition of that is, yes, our post traditional, but also our transfer students are part of that. Our off campus students are part of that as well. So those folks who, again, don't fit that traditional mold, who come in with more experience than the traditional student might. And it's really about honoring and seeing the folks, the students that are sitting in front of us and not the picture that we have in our head of 18 straight out of high school straight in has no other responsibilities living on campus. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:23]: I really appreciate that new framing of contemporary student. I'm also wondering how you connect that term to the students that you're serving because it might be new for them as well. Joisanne Rodgers [00:09:32]: It's absolutely new for them. It's also new for our faculty and staff as well. Mhmm. And so we've spent some time like I said, the contemporary student services or CSS was established before lockdown. And then lockdown happened, and there was a lot of turnover and a lot of changes, of course, as everybody's experienced. So in this post lockdown era, 3 of my 4 staff members, myself included, were new into CSS. And so that really gave us a chance to kind of reestablish ourselves and reach out and connect with the faculty and staff as well as the students across the institution to reintroduce, reconnect, and reestablish contemporary, what that is, what that looks like, and how the great thing is also that all of my staff members hold some contemporary identity. I was an adult learner. Joisanne Rodgers [00:10:26]: 1 of my coordinators is a transfer student. Another one is student parent. So we all hold those identities. So when we say peer, we mean it though we may not be in classes right now, it honestly wasn't that long ago that we were in that very same spot. And so having those conversations and having that lived experience really makes the biggest difference when we're connecting with students, but also when we're representing our students and advocating for our students. So, I'd like to say our work is about ACEs, a c e s. We advocate, celebrate, educate, and serve. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:58]: Okay. And we have to make sure that we're separating that ACES from adverse childhood experiences.  Joisanne Rodgers [00:11:04]: Yes, for sure. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:05]: That's really helpful to kind of wrap our minds around this different conceptualization. You also said that George Mason is on the forefront of this new transition of how we're thinking about serving these very unique but growing populations at our university. Mhmm. How are you working with others in the field to kind of stabilize some of this and normalize it? Joisanne Rodgers [00:11:25]: Yeah. So we're doing a lot internally and then regionally and then nationally. Right? So we've partnered for some of our subpopulations. We've partnered with folks like Generation Hope and participated in a Family U cohort. We, in this last year, earned the Family U seal, which is really exciting. Congratulations. Thank you. We're super excited about that to kind of amplify and celebrate our work with student parents and caregiver caregivers. Joisanne Rodgers [00:11:54]: And but we're also working with our 1st generation center because the when you add 1st gen over over contemporary populations, that Venn diagram doesn't really get all that much bigger. It still stays real tight. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:05]: Mhmm. Joisanne Rodgers [00:12:06]: So we partner with our friends in 1st gen center, which are part of the 1st gen efforts through NASPA. And so having NASPA support in that is beautiful and really helpful. And we also are working with everyone from, for example, our Marcom, our marketing communications folks at the institution and in our university life space to make sure that there's visual representation of all of our students too. And so we wanna make sure that we're seeing that our students are seeing themselves in all of the collateral that happens in the marketing that happens across the institution and across the region because there are buses driving all over DC with Mason on them, and we want them to see themselves in that in that place and space too. And now we're looking at I'm here at NASPA. We're, taking that in. We're also Generation Hope is hosting their very first HOPE conference this year in New Orleans. So I'm going straight from NASPA to that conference Mhmm. Joisanne Rodgers [00:13:03]: To present, but also to take in what other folks are doing. And we're part of an Aspen network for Ascend. So we're really trying to connect in to work smarter, not harder, as I mentioned. So for us, we have, as I mentioned before, 4 full time professional staff members. We have a graduate student and student staff as well as an office manager. And sometimes I'm talking to folks and they say, oh my gosh. You only have 4 staff members to do that. And I talk to other folks, and I'm like, oh, my gosh. Joisanne Rodgers [00:13:32]: You have 4 staff members. I'd love to have that. So we're in a great spot, kind of. And so looking at that too and making sure that as we're looking at emerging populations and looking at our work, that we're staying in a place where we can really help and advocate across the institution that we are not the only ones doing this work. Joisanne Rodgers [00:13:55]: I think that's the important part of it too is as we're gathering ideas from NASPA sessions, as we're gathering ideas from Hope Conference sessions, some of my staff went to FYE this year. And gathering that information, it's about how do we partner, what are great ways that we can advocate, consult, do these things so that, ideally, all of our faculty and staff across Mason see this contemporary student work as their work too. Joisanne Rodgers [00:14:25]: And a lot of times, it's just having the conversation about the language or having a little bit of conversation about calling them in to that work and making just little tweaks and changes because most of the time they're doing it. They just don't know that they're doing it. Or we're saying, that's really great. What if you could? And kind of leveling it up. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:45]: There's a book for 1st gen student success that NASPA, I believe, is a co publisher on, or maybe the publisher on. I I don't know exactly, but there's a list in it about, like, the 15 or 25 things that you can do to support first gen students. And the messaging I always come back to with that is if it's good for 1st gen students, it's good for all students because it's really about teaching people how to navigate the system of higher education, creating new to the system don't have, the social capital to understand, and and I really hear the echoes of serving those first gen students with your contemporary students. And it just it's so great to see that you're creating synergy with your 1st gen success center as well. Joisanne Rodgers [00:15:28]: Absolutely. And you're 12,000 percent correct in that, like, that hidden curriculum, the paper ceilings that a lot of our adult learners and and folks are hitting, and that's what's bringing them back into our into higher ed. But also understanding this strange lexicon that they've either never encountered or it's been a really long time, or maybe they encountered it with their children when they were sending their kids to college, but they've never had to apply that to themselves. And so it works a little differently. And so, yeah, you're absolutely right. Like, those overlaps are spot on. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:01]: I wanna talk a little bit about that dance theory component because with your origins being in the arts and dance theory, a lot of people that have never studied the arts in a formal context probably are saying I didn't know that there was theory to apply to to arts in that way. And we have those theories in music education and dance education. It's about how we teach learning. It's about how we absorb and create and a number of other things. So I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about 1 or 2 of the dance theories that you rely on and how you're transitioning those from context of the ballroom to context of contemporary Joisanne Rodgers [00:16:34]: students. Sure. So I have this kind of, like, running list of yes. There's, like, the formal theories and learning and and things like that, but I also kind of have this running list of things that always came from the director of the dance program, my undergrad, who doctor Jan Hyatt, love her, had these phrases that she always used that really stuck. And so a couple of those I think I have a list of, like, 10 or 15 in my notebook that have come with me all of these years later. And so the one that I use most frequently is you have to put the support in place before you need it. So whether you're executing a dance move, whether you're like, you don't just start playing for music, like, you just don't start playing. You ready yourself, instrument up, fingering, all of those things. Joisanne Rodgers [00:17:20]: Right? And so even when you're taking a step forward, your body is you do it unconsciously, more likely than not, but your body is putting these supports in place so that when you step forward, you don't fall flat on your face. Mhmm. So it's the same thing. We're talking about emerging populations. There were changes in Pell Grant rules and regs that open possibilities for previously incarcerated folks. That means that's that's opening up this emerging population. We've been looking at that population for the last year and a half or so, doing some research, doing some interviews, and putting together toolkits so that we can put the support in place before we need it. Mhmm. Joisanne Rodgers [00:17:57]: So, yes, some of those students already exist in our population, but we know that the possibility of more is coming. So we're putting that support in place before we need it. Just like if we were stepping forward, we don't wanna fall on our faces. Not that it's gonna work perfectly. Right? Practice and test and learns, that's how we come at it, but applying that. The other thing that I will say from her, mainly because this links directly into the podcast, is life is in the transitions. And so the importance of a move to the space in between the two moves is just as important as hitting your point or hitting the move or those kinds of things. And so that transition space and time is when things happen. Joisanne Rodgers [00:18:37]: Like, that's where the good stuff happens. And so that is always part of what I remind myself of as things are happening, and I translate that into the work and kind of the business y thing of, like, testing test and learns. Right? It's always a process and it's an iterative process. Speaking of more theory, formal theory, is one of my favorite quotes from Margaret Dobler is, where the sum total are experiences Mhmm. And that's the only way we can show up, and that's the only way that we can react, which to me says meet the students where they are. Like, those things are very, if not exactly the same, very, very similar, which is a tenet of student affairs. Right? How many times do you hear folks say meet the students where they are? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:19]: Mhmm. That tenet has been one of the major constants through NASPA's existence, I think. You know, the organization itself is, I think, a 100 ish years old, and the the core of NASPA's philosophies have been fairly constant over time. I had the pleasure of interviewing some folks, it was maybe 3 years ago at this point, who were the administrators at Kent State University during the Kent State situation, situation. And they read me the NASPA manual from that year, and it was all still relevant. So it's really interesting to see how the way that we approach the work has changed a lot over time and we've become more justice focused, we've become more inclusive, we've become broader in who we serve, but we are still keeping that core of we're trying to help college students and young adults kind of realize their full selves in that out of classroom space, continue to show up as our best. Joisanne Rodgers [00:20:08]: Yeah. Keeping that good stuff as the core. Absolutely. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:11]: I'm wondering if you could tell us how folks might be able to read more about these new evolutions in serving contemporary students. Because we're not seeing that research necessarily show up as boldly in some of the major journals, but there's so much work that is, I think, the future of what's happening in American higher education, specifically. Joisanne Rodgers [00:20:28]: Yeah. I think when we're looking at research, we get really specific. So for me, when I was doing, for example, my dissertation research and doing my lit review, it was a lot of looking at the specific subpopulations. Student parent, parenting student, all the variations of that. And so looking at that broader space, you know, I think about all of the advice that I got as I was constructing my research questions and things like that. And without fail, the first I would like to say 2 to 3, but it was probably more like 6 to 8 times. It was like, no. You gotta get narrower. Joisanne Rodgers [00:21:12]: It's like you're you're gonna you're never gonna get this done if you don't get specific. And so I think that's what's hard is that post traditional is so big and broad, contemporary is so big and broad, and so we talk a lot and there's a lot of research about those subpopulations, but looking at that in the broader sense is a little harder. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:31]: You just said what every doctoral student has heard, too much pain. Right? Like, please please narrow your focus. I'm working with a person right now who is trying to narrow their focus from studying a population that is millions of people and going, oh, I just wanna study the population. Okay. But what about that population? And it's just so important for doctoral students to remember this is the first time you'll do independent research, not the last time. Yes. That's a hard lesson to learn, I think. Joisanne Rodgers [00:22:00]: Yeah. It absolutely I did a lit review on contemporary students, what would I be doing, and how would I look at these subpopulations, and how would I bring this together? And then thinking about those big, over arching Mhmm. Needs that are identified in that in that literature. So coordination of service being one of those, access and not necessarily access to education, which might be where your brain goes immediately when I say access, but it's really access to information. Mhmm. It's that social capital piece. Exactly. And so having those and having a not just a group of peers, but a group of peers that reflect their identities Mhmm. Joisanne Rodgers [00:22:46]: And whatever is most salient in the moment. So we know that for adult learners in particular, and this is true across all contemporary populations, but if they have a peer group that is just traditional students, it's not great. It can be detrimental. Mhmm. So helping them find their community and find their village, I've been at Mason I don't know. It feels like maybe 12 minutes. Really, it was probably a couple months. And one of our student parents who is working with us with Generation Hope was our student parent fellow. Valeria said at a convening, said everybody says it takes a village. Joisanne Rodgers [00:23:26]: But not everybody has one. Mhmm. And that just I was like, yeah. Exactly. That, like, just hit me, and it was this beautiful encapsulation Joisanne Rodgers [00:23:38]: Of everything that we were talking about, of students coming in and not having what they need, but that we could help and we could connect them, and we could be a village. We could be part of that support network and system. And not being a student parent, but being an auntie of, like, in with my best friend who was a student parent. She was getting her MBA, and my goddaughter was really, really tiny. And I was doing my doctorate, and so we were trading off for doing homework and hanging out with the kiddo and all of those things. And so I get that village. I'm like, I am a villager. We can be villagers. Joisanne Rodgers [00:24:15]: Let's do it. But that's not just true for our student parents and caregivers. It's true for many of our students. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:22]: You just gave one great example of what that can look like in practice. I'm wondering if you have any other practice elements that you think is important for our listenerships. Yeah. Joisanne Rodgers [00:24:29]: I think the big things for us that we've gotten really big positive feedback on are several things. 2 that I'll pull out is 1, we have community spaces that we plan out early so that we can let our students get those on their calendars and make notes so that they can make the time. We'll also do multimodal, so sometimes they'll be in person, sometimes they'll be online, so they can connect with each other. And it's really it's truly just a space of, like, we're providing the space, but our students our student workers, we've created, student ambassador positions that work differently than your traditional student worker position where you're asking for 15 or 20 hours a week. Those aren't working for all of our contemporary students, particularly for our adult learners, our student parents, and military veteran connected folks. Many of them are already living in time poverty, so asking for 15 to 20 hours a week, not gonna happen. Mhmm. So we created these ambassador positions that are right now, I think we have them set to, like, 50, 55 hours over the entirety of the semester. Joisanne Rodgers [00:25:37]: Okay. And we have a stipend that's attached to that because their lived experience is important, and if we're doing things for them, we wanna do that with them. And so those students are supporting those spaces and coming up with ideas of activities or topics and connections. So that's one thing that has been really great, and it's really helped our students build their own villages and build their their success network across the Mason community too because we also invite our colleagues into that space and into our lounge that we have on campus. I think the other thing is that, like every other population, we have us the contemporary student appreciation week. But we do that in April, and at the end of the week, we have a graduation celebration for our contemporary students. So we have contemporary student courts that they can come and pick up and wear at commencement. But at the graduation celebration, if they haven't already grabbed those, we have those available for them. Joisanne Rodgers [00:26:35]: But we encourage them to bring their village. We don't limit the number of folks that they can bring. We want them to bring their kids. We have kids' activities at the at the event. We want them to bring their parents. We want them to bring whoever is supporting them and has been a champion for them, including Mason faculty and staff. So So when they RSVP for that event, we ask them, who's been a champion for you? Who really made a difference? Is there a professor, a staff member, a community member that really just lifted you up or amplified or advocated for you or just was there and supportive and would listen? And when they identify the folks, we send them an invite. You know, like, come celebrate with us. Joisanne Rodgers [00:27:16]: And so we have this really great mix of students and their families and faculty and staff, and our VP comes and talks, and our AVP, and it's just this really beautiful event. We give them a whole bunch of, like, different areas. They can take pictures, and it's just a really beautiful event that kind of setting yourself up for success when you do a graduation celebration. That part I won't lie about. I know. Like, we're already starting at a 7 out of 10. But those connections are also really great in that space of having gratitude at the end of this journey that was not easy. Yeah. Joisanne Rodgers [00:27:50]: There isn't anybody in that room being like, this was a breeze. Glad to see I'm out. No. Everybody in that room is, this was a hard one situation. Mhmm. And I had to make some hard decisions. I had to make some really difficult priority management decisions, And I just have some really interesting conversations with my partner, with my kids about, it's homework time. You do your homework. Joisanne Rodgers [00:28:15]: I'm doing my homework. This is what we've gotta do. But at the end, it wasn't easy, but it wasn't worth it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:21]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:27]: Thanks so much, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a number of professional development opportunities that are coming up in the future that some of you may have an interest in. The 2024 Women's Leadership Institute is coming up December 10th through December 13th, and the call for programs ends on May 9, 2024. The Women's Leadership Institute provides an experience that offers strategies for women to succeed in the higher education profession. Participants include women with from facilities and operations, administration, auxiliary services, student affairs, recreation, and libraries who share a passion for the profession and plan to lead with lasting impact. This is a joint venture between NASPA and ACUI and a great opportunity for anyone looking to hone their leadership skills for working in a rapidly changing environment while also developing a better understanding of the campus as a workplace and culture and being able to connect with others to share experiences about how campuses are adapting and adjusting to the new reality that surrounds us. Early registration goes through October 21st, but the big deadline right now, as I mentioned at the beginning, is the call for programs, which does end on May 9, 2024. Some of the leadership cycle topics that are encouraged include topics surrounding supervision and performance management, strategic planning, financial well-being, upskillreskill, the bridge to the future, delegating and giving away, picking up new skills and putting things down. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:00]: I highly encourage you to consider putting in a program proposal and if not, consider attending this amazing professional development opportunity. You can find out more on the NASPA website. The 2024 NASPA M. Ben Hogan Small Colleges and Universities Institute is coming up June 23rd through 26th in Portland, Oregon. This institute is hosted on a biannual basis by NASPA Small College and Universities Division. The Institute is a 4 day residential program, during which vice presidents for student affairs and the equivalent and other senior level leaders engage in discussion and reflection about critical issues in student affairs and examine effective and innovative programs. There's still time to register under the early registration deadline, which is April 30, 2024. This Institute offers amazing opportunities for individuals working at small colleges and universities to be able to build lasting friendships and connections that will help them to be able to lead their own units at their own institutions in new ways. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:04]: If you've never attended this professional development in the past, I highly encourage you to attend this year. You definitely don't want to miss this opportunity to be able to connect, be rejuvenated and to prepare yourself to lead your organization to the next level. The 2024 Leadership Educators Institute is happening December 9th through December 11th in Philadelphia. This is a partnership between NASPA, ACPA, College Student Educators International, and the National Clearing House for Leadership Programs. LEI provides a unique opportunity for all professional levels within our field to engage in critical dialogue to promote positive, sustainable change on your campus. The Leadership Institute creates a space for student affairs administrators, scholars, and practitioners to discuss and advance current leadership topics, such as modern leadership theories and models, including new research, applications and critical perspectives, innovative and inclusive curriculum, pedagogy, and strategies for leadership studies courses, assessment and evaluation of leadership programs, student development and learning outcomes, future directions in leadership education and development based on widely used studies and standards such as the multi institutional study of leadership, CAS, and ILA guiding questions, unique co curricular program models and high impact practices, including those with cohort and multi year engagement, distance and online learning, service learning, mentoring, and global experiences. Strategy and management of leadership program operations, including staff training, funding, and partnerships, as well as interdissectional and interdisciplinary approaches to leadership education. If you are someone that is leading leadership training and leadership development of students on your own campus or wish to be a part of that in the future, this professional development is a must go to. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:06]: Registration is now open. Pre early registration ends on June teenth with early registration ending on September 9th. Find out more on the NASPA website. Every week we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself, where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:14]: Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:42]: Chris, thank you so much for another great addition of NASPA World. We really appreciate you keeping us informed on what's going around in and around NASPA. And, Joisanne, we have reached our lightning round. Oh. I've got 7 questions for you. 90 seconds. Oh my. Alright. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:56]: I'm ready. Question 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would Joisanne Rodgers [00:35:00]: your entrance music be? Ain't No Man, The Avett Brothers. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:03]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Joisanne Rodgers [00:35:06]: I wanted to be a teacher because student affairs professional, not on the kindergarten chart.  Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:12]: True story. Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Joisanne Rodgers [00:35:17]: I had a list. I talked about Jan, which is important. I think in the place and space that I'm in right now, it's my current supervisor, Sally Laurenson, and she has been amazing. Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Oh my gosh. Everything. Consume everything you can and run it through the lens of you and your life and your strengths and your institution. Number 5. Joisanne Rodgers [00:35:45]: The best TV show you binged during the pandemic. I feel like I should say The Chair, because it just is absolutely directly related, but really the guilty pleasure version of that is Love is Blind. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:57]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Joisanne Rodgers [00:36:00]: Oh, that one's easy. Malcolm Gladwell revisionist history. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:04]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? Joisanne Rodgers [00:36:08]: Oh, my gosh. Everybody. I stand on the shoulders of giants is really what that is. So I have this really amazing family that despite not having a lens necessarily for what I do is still a 1000% in. And when I say things like, I'm sorry. I can't come home for Thanksgiving if you want me home at Christmas. They were not thrilled about it, but they made it work and were lovely the whole time, and I know that was difficult. And so I love them, but, also, I've had the privilege of working with some really great folks and having people like Ted Smith, who was my first RD, who told me this could be a job, and support from folks at Allegheny, as well as then moving into my first professional position at Western Kentucky University and having this group of folks who were in it and wanted everyone to succeed in just this really great village of folks that supported me in that and helped me learn how to be a professional in that place and space. Joisanne Rodgers [00:37:10]: And my first supervisor, Nick Wired, and Brian Powell, and Ben Ellis just absolutely giving me space and grace to fail fast and forward, and supporting me in that, and having a leadership team, particularly in in HRL, but also in my internships and things like that. So my Western Kentucky family, my Hilltopper family being great support in that as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:38]: Joisanne, I know I learned a lot from you today, and I'm sure there are others who have. If they'd like to reach out to you, how can they find you? Joisanne Rodgers [00:37:44]: Absolutely. You can find me on LinkedIn. Look at the ad for my name. It's spelled a little differently than you might think, but I'm pretty easy to find. So connect with me on LinkedIn, send me a note, add a note to that that you heard me here and ask some questions. I'm always happy to answer those or jump on a Zoom with someone and chat about what's going on. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:03]: Thank you so much, Joisanne, for sharing your voice with us today. Joisanne Rodgers [00:38:06]: Absolutely. Thank you for having Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:10]: me. This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:44]: It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Embracing the Unknown The field of student affairs is constantly evolving, and professionals in this domain must be equipped with strategies to navigate uncertainty effectively. Success in this arena comes from a blend of versatility, patience, and transparency. Versatility and Adaptation Aquaneta Pinkert from Alabama State University highlights the importance of being well-versed in various areas, allowing for a smooth pivot when needed. Embracing a versatile approach prevents stagnation and ensures relevance in meeting student needs. This pivot-and-adapt strategy is crucial in staying dynamic within the field. Patience and Trust Taylor Cain of the University of Georgia emphasizes practicing patience amidst uncertainty. By trusting the process and focusing on controllable elements, student affairs professionals can maintain composure and lead with confidence, even when future outcomes are unclear. Transparency in Leadership Dr. Adrienne White from George Mason University shares her experience during COVID, when uncertainty reached a peak. By committing to monthly one-on-ones with her team and maintaining transparency, she fostered a supportive environment that not only alleviated concerns but also reinforced trust and collective problem-solving. Moving Forward with Resilience As student affairs professionals, embracing uncertainty isn't just about survival—it's about thriving and finding opportunities for growth. The strategies shared by these professionals are only a few of about 50 that provided a glimpse into the diversity of approaches used across the field to overcome challenges and foster an environment that champions both student and professional development.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of On Transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay Voices from the Field host. Welcome to this bonus episode of student affairs voices from the field. As we've returned home from the annual conference, Chris and I are thrilled to share with you your voices. We were able to connect with several dozen of you throughout the conference experience to get your thoughts on the 3 conference foci areas and learn from your experiences. Across the next 3 weeks, we're going to be dropping bonus episodes on Tuesdays to share with you your thoughts on these three areas. The first area was navigating the opportunities of uncertainty. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:53]: And the question we asked you was, what strategies have you employed to embrace uncertainty during your career, and how have they positively impacted your professional journey? Please enjoy. And if you were featured, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us. Acquanetta Pinkard [00:01:08]: I'm Acquanetta Pinkard. I am from Montgomery, Alabama. I work for Alabama State University, and I am a trio professional for 23 years. Wow. That's a loaded quest 1 is pivoting. Pivoting, making sure that I am, well versed in a lot of different areas. So I am equipped to pivot and not get stuck in any particular area. So making sure that I'm just able to move with the times is so and that's been very impactful and not allowing me to get in a position where I'm I'm stuck doing the same thing over and over again, so that I can be impactful to my students still and revel it. Taylor Cain [00:01:45]: I'm Taylor Cain. I work at the University of Georgia and serve as the director of engagement, leadership, and service there. I think with uncertainty, I try to exude patience, which for those who know me would probably be surprised by that. I wish I was more patient. But with uncertainty, I try to stay calm, rely on what I know to be true, and then try to be patient and trust the process, as cliche as that is, to see how things work out. Certainly, try and figure out how I can control things within my sphere of influence. But understanding I'm a part of a larger organization and to move something like that forward or trying to figure out what's gonna come next, no one can predict the future. So do the best with what you have, but just try and stay patient. Adrienne White [00:02:25]: I'm Dr. Adrienne White. I'm the director of student success coaching at George Mason University, and I use sheher pronouns. I actually think COVID was the most uncertain I think we've all ever been about our careers and the future and where we were all going with our lives. And something that I use with my team, that's when I started doing monthly 1 on 1 with every single person on my team. Because it gave them an opportunity to talk to me 1 on 1, talk to me about their concerns that they're having, and then gives me an opportunity to be able to alleviate some of those concerns or collectively come up with solutions to some of their concerns. And I think being as transparent as possible with the information that I've been given has really positively impacted my professional journey because I think it's forced me to be a more transparent leader, and it's also really made me think about how are the to the world events of today affecting my team and how we're supporting our students, which is our primary job. So it's really helped me rethink how I'm supporting my team through uncertain times. Susan Hua [00:03:31]: Hi. My name is Susan Hua. I use she/her pronouns, and I'm the director of diversity, equity, inclusion at the Community College of Aurora, which is an MSI HSI just outside of Denver, Colorado. The strategies that I've used to employ that I've employed to embrace uncertainty during my career is really making sure that I have a community of folks around me who are able to help me unpack and debrief what I'm going through. I found that having a network of friends and colleagues who have been really close in my journey has been really helpful in terms of understanding the challenges I'm going through and also offering strategies and offering support in times of uncertainty. Aileen Hentz [00:04:07]: My name is Aileen Hentz. I'm at the University of Maryland as the program director of academic and student services. I have embraced it fully. Many times, even now, I'm I'm 20 years into my career, I have stuck my foot in my mouth. So one thing that I have learned to do is try my hardest to think before speaking and to go with the flow and to be a little bit more thoughtful, and I think that might be some of the strategies. Stephen Rice [00:04:41]: Steven Rice, director of the Office of Community Expectations at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles, California. Some strategies that I use to embrace uncertainty, 1, to recognize uncertainty does happen all the time. And so you can't really prepare for it, but you can also be ready for it. And so I do that is looking at the positivity of it, making sure that I create networks with different resources on campus, so when those uncertainties come, figure out strategic stakeholders that can utilize to create a plan to really understand how to approach this uncertainty. But also going back and looking at how we learn and grow as individuals and as professionals, and how we are able to impact our university community positively by utilizing these different uncertainties and making the learning outcomes from it. Amy Adam [00:05:22]: Hi. This is Amy Adam, and I am from the University of Missouri in Columbia. I have been a student services support manager for 20 years, serving graduate students. One of the big things about uncertainty in my career, I've seen a lot in the past 2 decades. We went through some budget cuts after a campus wide protest that affected our relationships with legislators. Those of us that served students on campus really held fast to our values and our goal to support students. So, really, we just did a lot of debriefing amongst staff as well as really making sure to reach out to our students to make sure that they knew that they were supported and can ask for anything, and we would either support them or get them to the right resource if they needed it. Stephanie Cochrane [00:06:17]: Hi. I'm Stephanie Cochrane. I'm the director of student services at Northeastern University in Toronto. I'm here for NASPA for just the Sunday pre conference around graduate students. I think the main strategy is a growth mindset. Really in Toronto and especially Northeastern, we're growing at a really rapid pace and so we're keeping up with that. We also have a lot of students who are coming to the country for the first time, so international students. And having that growth mindset means that we can create innovative programming, try to try things for the first time, experiment a lot with our programming, see what works, what doesn't work, and continuously change and adjust as we go. Amy Hecht [00:06:57]: Hi. My name is Amy Hecht. I'm the vice president for student affairs at Florida State University. I've been there 7 years now. The strategies I've employed to embrace uncertainty during my career has really been leaning on mentors using my network, really having conversations about what is happening, whether it's at my institution or across the country. I've also employed a leadership coach that's been really helpful in processing what's happening at work or what's happening in life, and that's really helped me navigate different moments throughout my career.  Shatera Davis [00:07:35]: Hi. My name is Shaterra Davis. I use she/her pronouns. I'm the director of student affairs at Northeastern in Seattle. Move with kindness and empathy has been one. I think it would be too simple to say treat people as how you want to be treated. I think it's more intentional than that, and so anytime I move careers, anytime that I support students, I always think about what would I have needed when I was a student, what did I get when I was a student, my why when I came into student affairs in higher education, and then giving myself grace and showing myself true kindness and empathy in those moments where it's tough is something that I just try to live by and move forward anytime, like, in my career and in my personal life. Andy Wiegert [00:08:17]: I'm Andy Wiegert, director of graduate student affairs, arts and sciences, Washington University in Saint Louis. Yeah, it's a good question. I think actually coming from a different industry before I came to higher ed, I've been in higher ed now for about 11 or 12 years. I was really used to a more hierarchical structure that had very clear trajectories, and I've really had to lean in to just living in the moment and sort of being present at what I'm doing now and just trusting that as I build a network that my own development will just happen in kind. Scott Peska [00:08:52]: Hi Scott Peska, Waubonsee Community College, Assistant Provost of Student Services. I think that the best part is trying to find ways to be resilient and one of the things that I learned early on was to always do things a little differently. So don't take the same route to work every day. Try to find new ways to just ensure that you're comfortable with change. And so we get into, like, a lot of ruts as human beings. And so we kinda get in the same patterns of behaviors. The more that we can kinda find ways to change it up so Tuesday, that's my secret. Tuesday is my day to do something different every week. It's a way to try to promote being flexible and that has helped me to process and be prepared for uncertainty when it comes up. Dilna Cama [00:09:31]: Dilna Cama. I am a director within student life at the Ohio State University, and I am part of the off campus and commuter knowledge community. So in terms of strategies that I've employed to embrace uncertainty during my career, Definitely keeping eye on what the final end goal is. It can be very difficult if you use COVID as a perfect example. It can be easy to get lost in the day to day barriers and challenges, but really making sure to keep focused on that end goal and be laser focused on that has really been helpful in my professional journey. Sabina Kapoor [00:10:08]: My name is Sabina Kapoor, and I'm currently a a full time doctoral student with Capella University. I spent over 20 years in higher education as a staff within student affairs, student success, and academic affairs. So as I've progressed in my career, I've focused more on staff so that they can better serve students. I wanna go in deep with that, so that's why I'm pursuing the doctorate in IO Psychology because I wanna look at the relationship between the organization and the employee. There was a I guess you could you know, how we have midlife crisis. I had a kind of midlife crisis in my career, and so it was like I hit a ceiling and just really couldn't go further. So I had been wanting to pursue my PhD, and I knew that that would help me go further. So that's what I did. And so I've been on that journey now for a few years. It's been rough, but I just keep thinking of the end goal. And also, in this time, while I'm not working full time, but I'm still staying connected in higher ed in different ways. So I'm a member of NASPA, and so a member as a student, so I'm paying out of pocket and it's a little cheaper than being a full time staff. I'm also a member of Coupa, which is basically HR in in university and colleges, and, membership is cheap to free, I think. And so it's pretty I I think as a doctoral student, I have a membership for free. And so the thing is that I'm trying to keep connections and stay involved in organizations so that I know what, you know, basically what national trends are, what are best practices, especially since the pandemic. That really changed a lot of how we view things. Carlie Weaver [00:11:48]: Hello. I am Carlie Weaver with Rose Hulman Institute of Technology. I'm a programs coordinator for the student activities in Union office. To have a very flexible mindset and being open to change and being able to be flexible when things change at the last minute. Roxanne Wright Watson [00:12:08]: Hi. My name is Roxanne Wright Watson. I'm from Lehigh Carbon Community College in Pennsylvania, and I'm happy to be here. So So I think most importantly for me, I am student centered. So in my career, I'm always wanting to do new things with my students in my in the classroom, faculty. So I wanna do new things in the classroom to help my students in more than just academically, but more so to help them in the world in their whole life in general. So I think that's an important thing, an important factor there for me. Carla Ortega Santori [00:12:48]: My name is Carla Ortega Santori. I work at Rice University. I am the strategic initiatives manager at the Door Institute For New Leaders at Rice University, and my job is really about helping students elevate their leadership capacity and to also elevate the capacity of all campuses to do really great leader developments in education. So I would say that most of my jobs have been really ambiguous, like, they start off as something, then they turn into this other great thing. I guess I've always been more comfortable with ambiguity and uncertainty, so I guess knowing that it's not something permanent helps to sort of adapt and thinking of different avenues to accomplish one thing is also helpful when when you think about accomplishing a goal. Rachael Amaro [00:13:42]: I'm Rachel Amaro. I'm the admissions and academic advisor for the Department of Educational Leadership within the College of Education at Cal State Fullerton. I think that one of the main things has been reminding myself that I am one person and knowing what is in my control and what is not in my control. I think that's really hard in the profession in general. I think we all mostly are helpers, centered and ready for what my students need. And so I think that I can be re centered and ready for what my students need. And so I think that it's really helped me have an understanding of what it is I want to give to what I do and what I wanna get from what I do. I think that, again, the big takeaway for most people these days is what do I value about my time that's mine? And I think that I try to sort of encourage new staff members that I work with in this because I think a lot of them come in, again, wanting to go go go, which is great, but I also have to remind them, like, hey, like, you know, you have vacation days for a reason if you need it. And I feel like that's just something that's been really helpful to me to feel a little more like I have some balance to myself, and then it lends it to the work that I do. Christine Wilson [00:16:23]: I'm Christine Wilson. I am in student affairs at UCLA. I have two roles. 1 is as the executive director for academic partnerships and the other is the program director for our masters in student affairs program. There's been a tremendous amount of uncertainty because of the pandemic, but I think everyone has uncertainty in their career because you don't know what's next or how that's gonna happen. And my strategy has been to embrace uncertainty because if you don't, you'll be unhappy and to take opportunities that come up in order to grow and learn more about how the university works, not just student affairs, but how everything works together. And through taking on things I've been asked to do, I've sometimes been incredibly busy, but it has helped me be much more effective because I have worked in so many different areas of student affairs just temporarily leading a unit or being involved in a task force. Olivia Ruggieri [00:17:21]: Hi there. My name is Olivia Ruggieri. I'm the associate director of administration operations for Northeastern University Seattle campus. I grew up in Pennsylvania, went to 2013, but I've been working for the university since 2018. I would say just tapping into the network of professionals around me, having other folks review my work, and if I'm nervous about something, making sure that I'm not the only person, like, putting that message out into the world. And a lot of that came into place in during COVID 19 where we to be really clear with our messaging. Of course, there's a lot of uncertainty, and we wanted to make sure that our students got the right information the first time. Because things were changing so rapidly, we couldn't risk, like, confusion in the day to Christle Foster [00:18:11]: day. Hi. My name is Christle Foster, and I'm from Chesapeake College located on the Eastern Shore of Maryland in Wymeals. Working during the pandemic was definitely some uncertainty, especially when we had to switch from being face to face to online. And in my role as an executive director of Trio Programs, it was especially difficult to recruit students online because many of them became disengaged. So definitely, that helped me to learn how to be adaptive as well as how to be responsive to change because that was a lot of change very quickly. We got notice, like, a couple of days that we were shutting down and I had to switch gears and help my staff switch gears in that time of uncertainty. Nathalie Waite Brown [00:18:49]: My name is Nathalie Waite Brown. I am the assistant dean of students and director for graduate student life at Stevens Institute of Technology located in Hoboken, New Jersey. I think what I've used that it's been the most successful is pause and then practice. Being able to take a a moment just to stop and think about what isn't working and what I want to work, and then putting those things into practice, and that may mean reconnecting with my mentor. It may mean taking a class. It may be connecting with students, but really just taking a moment to pause and reflect to be able to move forward and put what I need into practice. Dae'lyn Do [00:19:27]: My name is Dae'lyn Do. I use sheher pronouns, and I am the associate director for the Women in Science and Engineering Residence program at the University of Michigan, and I am coming into the position of the WISA KC co chair. For me, personally, I feel like relying on my people to get me through kind of the when I have questions about things or come across challenges, I just reach out to my colleagues or my mentors and help process through things. I think all of us have to work together in this field to really rely on each other to try to get through those challenges together and utilize each other's experiences and knowledge and just keep sharing that with each other. Natalie DeRosa [00:20:09]: So my name is Natalie DeRosa, and I'm from Lehigh Carbon Community College in Schnecksville, Pennsylvania. So I'll start by saying that I'm a young professional. I think the key is to keep calm, and I'm still learning, and that's why I'm here. That's why I'm at NASPA, is to learn how to do that and do it gracefully. Dan Volchek [00:20:38]: Dan Volchek, assistant dean of student success at Harvard Griffin Grad School of Arts and Sciences. In embracing uncertainty, I've looked at what other schools do and read publications about that and that has helped me manage the uncertainty that I faced during my career of which have been a number of pieces. But the biggest thing I think the strategy I've used is networking with people, utilizing my connections in NASPA to help me get through the uncertainty that I faced in my career and my professional journey. Vaughn Calhoun [00:21:12]: Vaughn Calhoun, Seton Hall University, hehim. Yeah. I think for me, really, it's just pausing and making sure that you can understand the the context of of what's happened to the best of your abilities and knowing that things can change, and they probably will change, but also knowing that you can only control the controllable. And for me, it's attitude and effort. And it's one thing I always share with my staff is we can control what we can control. Those things we can't control, we shouldn't spend too much time thinking about it and just do what we can. Darlene Robinson [00:21:43]: My name is Darlene Robinson. I'm the RISE gen 1 director for Seton Hall University. Some of the strategies that I've employed to embrace uncertainty during my career is more so looking inward, sitting with certain questions, ideas, and things that I, as a person, would like to have in a career, and just figuring out how that how what I have and what I need can impact those around me and best service students or coworkers that I come in contact with, and asking questions of those people as well to know what it is that they need and how I can provide it. Miguel Angel Hernandez [00:22:21]: Hello. My name is Miguel Angel Hernandez. I am the associate vice president and dean of students at San Francisco State University. I think one of the things that I do related to strategies is really ground myself and center myself in the idea and concept that a greater power is at work, that nothing whatever situation comes. I think the second piece that's important about that that brings me a lot of confidence is that I don't have to navigate uncertainty alone. Here at NASPA is a reminder that we are a part of an amazing professional association. Through relationship and thinking with partners and coming up with strategies or responses to the critical issues that are facing our profession today, I do believe that we are able to emerge better than we were yesterday. And so when I think about uncertainty, what brings me comfort is that I am only a text message, phone call, social media post away from an amazing network of thought partners, and that has guided me and continues to guide me. I think in terms of how this has positively impacted my professional journey is that it allows me not to feel like I have to know everything or be over prepared or have every aspect of a job description or an invitation under my belt because again, we are not in this alone. Together, we thrive. David Chao [00:23:47]: Hello. My name is David Chow. My pronouns are hehim. I serve as the director of IT for student affairs at the University of Pittsburgh, and I'm also the chair of the technology knowledge community. I think I spent a lot of time trying to plan ahead and anticipate. I think planning, while you can't plan for everything, it can certainly help and to help minimize variability whenever possible. It's just helped to mitigate that. But it's not always easy. And, unfortunately, as we just came off the pandemic, there are times when we just don't have a plan and we have to go with it, but I think planning in general still builds up a habit that is helpful even in times of uncertainty. Melinda Stoops [00:24:20]: Hi. I am Melinda Stoops. I serve as the associate vice president for student health and wellness at Boston College. In looking at my career in student affairs, which has been over 20 years at this point, there have certainly been many points of uncertainty. And even though I've employed different strategies at different points in times and in different situations, I really think the one constant point for me has really been connecting with others and opening up, even if just to one person, about something I'm dealing with where I feel uncertain. There's nothing better than having someone listen to you and support you, and I so much value my network both within student affairs and outside of student affairs. And I feel like regardless of the situation, that's always been something really helpful for me is to feel like someone's there supporting me even if they don't have the answers per se, but that I just have someone who is in my corner and cheering me on. And sometimes they provide great guidance as well. Derek Grubb [00:25:20]: Derek Grubb, Dean of Enrollment Management for Red Rocks Community College in Colorado. Biggest strategy I really just employ is strength in the knowledge of others. I've always believed building a team that has unique strengths, can lean on each other, and so you're able to be more agile and reflecting and promoting those strengths in each person. Matt Imboden [00:25:41]: My name is Matt Imboden. I use the hehim pronouns. I serve as the chief student services officer in the School of Business at Wake Forest University in North Carolina. And, for the past few years, I've also been chairing the administrators and graduate and professional student services knowledge community for NASPA. So I think I've found that during times of uncertainty, it's taken me a few knee scrapes along the way. But I think I've learned that at that time is kinda when your motivating values are kinda the clearest, and they sort of help to clarify things for you, renew your focus. And so during times of uncertainty or stress or strain, as I kinda come back to the things that one, got me engaged in the work I do in the 1st place. I mean, that, like, truly motivate you without kinda being distracted by all the tasks and initiatives and ideas that tend to pile up, but kind of focus on our students, what excites us about working for and with them, but then also increasingly to try to be a good leader for other staff and faculty colleagues to make a difference at our institutions. Evette Castillo Clark [00:26:39]: Evette Castillo Clark, vice president for student life and dean of students at Lewis and Clark College, Portland, Oregon. I employ a strategy of being an iterative thinker. So sometimes what that means is working with your team, working with your staff to pilot things or think through things and outcomes or problems to a solution, throw it on the wall, see if it works, and it's okay if there's mistakes or if it's okay if it didn't work. You regroup, and you think through and toy through the uncertainty and the problem again. So I think one of the soft skills that it is really becoming the skills is really being flexible with your thinking, being understanding that sometimes that first go around, it's not gonna work, but you retool and you regroup and you go at it again, and you might actually have to convene different stakeholders to actually help you with the problem to address the uncertainty again. Madeline Frisk [00:27:33]: Hello. My name is Madeline Frisk. I work at Portland State University. I'm the coordinator of student government relations and advisor to Greek life. So I work with our student government, all of the committees and groups within that, as well as 4 strong and mighty small Greek life groups as well. I would say being a retired navy brat, navigating uncertainty was kinda a part of the career, we'll say. Navigating, moving every 3 years, I got pretty used to adapting, being the new kid, and I think that served me well now in the student affairs profession with all the ups and downs we can navigate with our career. Gene Zdziarski [00:28:08]: This is Gene Zdziarski. I'm vice president for student affairs at DePaul University. I think the biggest thing when there's times of uncertainty and questioning is you try to do your homework, you try to learn more about the situation, and I think what I found to be most helpful is utilizing my professional network, reaching out to my colleagues in the profession, getting their perspective, hearing what they've thought. This is clearly one of the places that, at least for me, NASPA has served as my professional home, and the people that I interact are really that support network that I use throughout my career to help guide me and make decisions not only about what's happening on my campus and how to better serve students, but also, how I might look at next steps or where my professional journey is going to go. Lyza Liriano [00:28:54]: Hello. My name is Lyza Liriano. I currently serve as an area coordinator at DePaul University in Housing and Residence Life. Originally, I am from Brooklyn, New York. I think that as there has been a lot of uncertainty within higher ed, especially post pandemic, I remember being a grad student not knowing if the program would continue in terms of my grad assistantship in housing and being very nervous about, is this the career that I wanna go to, even though it was something that I really love. I think what I started doing then and what I continue to do now is really just tapping in on my network, and really just having those people that I can go to to provide me with hope. So a lot of my old directors, old supervisors, and assistant directors have been really just a sounding board for me, providing words of encouragement and really just also finding people outside of higher education that I can just lean on when I need someone to talk work with that don't necessarily know what I'm talking about when I'm talking about work. Jackie Cetera [00:29:54]: Jackie Cetera. I use sheher pronouns, and I serve as the director of residential education at Bucknell University in Pennsylvania. I would say that mentoring has been really impactful for me. Having different mentors throughout my career to help me through whatever my day to day or just life throws my way has really helped me. For individuals to provide the time and the space to talk through situations has really had a positive impact on me and has gotten me heavily Lisa Landreman [00:30:36]: My name is Lisa Landreman. I'm the vice president for student affairs at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon. So I would say how I've prepared myself and established for uncertainty, maintaining flexibility and humility, I think I would start with and making sure that I'm able to be calm, cool, collected, that I am taking care of my own well-being. It starts there. And so having good balance, having good support, having my network in place for when things get hard. So when I'm can be centered and prepared, I'm better able to handle the uncertainty and the anxiousness and the crisis that comes. I think it has helped me be a stronger leader when I can model calmness and that I am not rattled with the ebb and flow of whether it's the world or our campus or student issues. I think being well read and well versed in issues in the field, so professional conferences, professional connections, institutes, networks has really helped me stay grounded in new ideas, creative solutions, best practice, collaboration. Lisa Landreman [00:31:42]: And so I feel like I have kept my toolkit and my skills honed. You know, that isn't just I get my master's degree and get my PhD and I'm done. That it is I am constantly looking for where do I need to learn more and who could I learn it from or where could I learn that. So I feel like even if I don't know something in the moment, I know who I could connect with, where to go, who might have it, what resource do I need to brush up on. I think both those personal qualities of being okay with me and then being well versed, but then also knowing that it's okay that we don't know in the instant how to respond, that to take a moment to find the answer, to listen to solutions. Also, I would say hiring a really strong team around me and then modeling for them to be that we are a learning organization, so so that we're gonna learn together, that we create opportunities in our weekly meetings or in our retreats and things, that we are I am modeling that kind of learning. We read articles together. We present to one another that we share learnings on a regular basis. And so that has served me to both cultivate stronger professionals in my organization, also motivation and enthusiasm about learning new things, and also just it has allowed us to be a team in these uncertain times. Right? That we can work together, that we might make some mistakes along the way, but we can quickly recover because we're a learning organization. Jackie Yun [00:33:03]: Hi. I'm Jackie Yun. I take the she series, and I serve as the executive director of the Harvard Griffin GSAS Student Center. I think that sometimes with uncertainty comes opportunity, and so some of the pivots in my career have actually turned out to be excellent silver linings and opportunities to specialize or to pivot, go to a different type of institution, work with different type of student, and so I've tried to see those as opportunities to learn. I think creating a learning mindset and just seeing everything as an opportunity to expand what we know keeps it interesting too. Leanna Fenneberg [00:33:37]: Hello. This is Leanna Feneberg. I'm the incoming chief student affairs officer at Duquesne University. I have had the experience of positions being eliminated and having to start a national job search and relocate with my family. And while those have been troubling times, I see them as wonderful opportunities to reflect on who I am and what I value and what I want in my next position and have always appreciated when one door closes, another one opens and seeing the opportunities that lie ahead. Jake Murphy [00:34:10]: Jake Murphy, I'm the director of prospective students services at OSU Institute of Technology, and I am over all recruitment and retention efforts at the university. So probably the biggest thing that I have put in place has been growth mindset. That's been a big one to be able to make sure that I am doing the best that I can and make sure that my team is in top form but also making sure that they look towards their professional goals because it is for recruitment, it's a stepping stone for a lot of people. Larry Pakowski [00:34:39]: Larry Pakolski. I'm the vice president for student engagement, inclusion, and success at Aims Community College in Greeley, Colorado. I think the biggest thing is looking at kind of what students need and and their voice in the equation, and then letting that be the north star, like students first always. And then we get into the budget and what's possible and how soon can we do that by really kind of keeping that north star of students first. Jillaine Zenkelberger [00:35:02]: Hi. I'm Dr. Jillaine Zenkelberger. I am the program coordinator over at Graduate Student Life at the University of Notre Dame. My professional career has been, even though somewhat short still has been kinda all over the place. I started as a social worker in foster care and now I'm here in grad services and I think uncertainty is just for me I utilize my uncertainty in my career path. I try to frame it as a benefit because I have a really diverse background with social work in my background, psychology, and really utilizing these skills to serve the community that I'm in now which is grad students. Also, my own journey as a grad student has really affected the way I work and how I interact with my students. Kristen Merchant [00:35:48]: Hi, everyone. I'm Kristen Merchant. I am from Rose Hulman Institute of Technology. I am the associate director of the Union and Student Activities Office there and also the director of our lead programs. Some strategies that I have employed to embrace uncertainty is I always like to come to everything with a plan. I always say plan for anything that could possibly happen, but then also being flexible enough to pivot for my Friends fans and be able to kind of adjust to the various situations. Joe Lizza [00:36:18]: My name is Dr. Joe Lizza. I'm the director of the Chamberlain Student Center and Campus Activities at Rowan University in New Jersey. I think early on, I tried to kinda shape some of the work that I do in really in my interests. So I really find stuff that I have true interest and then try to kinda shape that position or shape that professional development opportunity to kinda really be 100% fully engaged. And I've also always been open to opportunity even when it maybe there was uncertainty. So in the idea of not knowing what possibly I might do or my next step, I always kind of rose to the idea that, hey, let me try this new opportunity out. What's the worst that could happen? And it's ultimately kinda worked out for me. Joshua Allred [00:37:03]: My name is Joshua Allred. I work at Louisiana State University in the College of Agriculture as their manager of student services. I think when I think about uncertainty, I try to find in any job that I apply for or when I choose to stay where I'm at. Most recently, it's all been about the people that I work with. And so if I have strong leadership and I feel really comfortable with that leadership, that uncertainty feels a little bit more easy to navigate because I feel a lot of strength in that leadership. Kelley O'Neal [00:37:30]: Hello. Kelley O'Neal. I am at Texas A&M University, and I am the executive director of the Marylin Kent Burns Student Success Center. So one of the things I continue to do is try to be innovative and think what's next? What more can I do to support students and support student success? I don't wanna come in and do the same programs over and over again. I want to do my best to collaborate, whether it's with my partners in academic affairs or my partners in student affairs. But whenever uncertainty comes, then that says, how do I make sure that students are successful? Because in uncertainty, they wanna make sure that what you're doing is supporting student success. So that's what I do. Kelley O'Neal [00:38:19]: I would say recently, the strategies that I've employed is really falling to networking and mentorship. In early career, I don't think I valued those two pieces as much as I do in my later stages of my career, and finding mentors that can help me shape my career trajectory for the last part of my career, and taking advantage of things like the Institute For Aspiring VP's here at NASPA, as well as other maybe smaller regional conferences and conferences within the graduate school community to help create that next plan for my career, but definitely mentoring and networking. Katie Caponera [00:39:03]: I'm Katie Caponera, director of student life at Harvard Divinity School. I think the biggest approach to approaching uncertainty has just been to remain open to new ideas and new possibilities and never get too attached or set into what's traditional or what's always this is how we've always done it. That can be a challenge at a place that is as old and has as much history as Harvard and one of its affiliates, But being one of the smaller schools at Harvard, we've we have the ability to try some new approaches and some new directions with a little bit more fluidity given that we're kind of in the corner and small, but just not not being precious about how things have been done in the past, but really engaging, you know, what ideas the students are bringing to us because they're the best indicators of what they need on campus. Kathy Dilks [00:39:58]: My name is Kathy Dilks, and I am the director of graduate student and post doctoral affairs at the Icahn School of Medicine, the Graduate School of Biomedical Sciences. I think the strategy that I always employ is staying connected with my colleagues and being open and honest with my peers. I rely on the people around me to help me navigate certain waters and certain uncertainties, and I rely on other people to help me gain valuable insight. Julie Payne Kirchmeier [00:40:30]: Julie Payne Kirchmeier, vice president for student success for the University of Indiana University. It's not really a system. It's a multi campus university, but we can say Indiana University System if that's easier for folks to kind of place the role. When I think about strategies employed to embrace uncertainty, you know, this may sound a little bit trite, maybe not. I just constantly important because, you know, there are elements of ethics and integrity that are woven into the how, but there are multiple ways to get there. And so when it feels uncertain or it feels strange, if I can go back to what it is at my core or as an organization, the mission or the purpose, I think it really helps to ground you and then you can move forward through that uncertainty. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:17]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:58]: This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

**Breaking Ground as a First-Generation Trailblazer**  In this episode of SA Voices From The Field Dr. Jill Creighton had the chance to speak with Alejandra Campoverdi, a formidable force advocating for women's health and an inspiration for many first-generation college students. Her memoir, 'First Gen: A Memoir,' beautifully encapsulates the emotional complexities that accompany the breaking of generational barriers, a theme that resonates deeply with many of our podcast's listeners. Alejandra's narrative is both personal and universal, detailing her own struggle with panic attacks and other challenges as she navigated the social ladders of legacy-based institutions. Her experience in the White House, and the pivotal role mentors played in her journey, offers a powerful testament to the lasting impact of educators and advocates across different walks of life. **Legacy and the Emotional Rhyme of Generations** Alejandra poetically introduces the concept of 'generational rhyming,' drawing lines between the past and present experiences. By reflecting on the courage of women in her family—those who confidently stepped away from chaotic relationships while carrying the burden of pregnancy—Alejandra emphasizes the inheritance of resilience and the personal choice to either continue or modify the legacy we carry forward. **The Cultural Tapestry of Health and Sacrifice** This episode also delves into Alejandra's advocacy for women's health, illustrating the interweaving of cultural expectations and individual wellness. Her frank discussion on BRCA mutation and confronting a familial pattern of breast cancer underscores the critical necessity of breaking cycles, not only socially and economically but also health-wise. **Systemic Issues and the Imposter Experience** Alejandra's views on 'imposter syndrome' are particularly enlightening, challenging the notion that it stems solely from personal insecurity rather than also being rooted in systemic disparities. This perspective invites a broader conversation on the structural changes needed to support and validate the experiences of those breaking new ground. **Connecting with Alejandra Campoverdi** Listeners can reach out to Alejandra Campoverdi via her DMs on Instagram, LinkedIn, or her website. Her gracious acknowledgment of her mentors, including her former White House boss, and her thanks to the NASPA family and Dina from the First Gen Center, that manifests an ecosystem of support that many 'firsts' heavily rely on.    TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Welcome back essay voices. It was amazing to run into so many of you at the annual conference, and thank you again for continuing to listen to us. Today, we're gonna be releasing the first of several annual conference episodes, and we were thrilled to sit down with the closing keynote speaker, Alejandra Campaverdi. Alejandra is a nationally recognized women's health advocate, best selling author, founder, producer, and former White House aide to President Obama. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:48]: Alejandra's memoir, First Gen: A Memoir, examines the often unacknowledged emotional tolls of being a trailblazer. A national bestseller, 1st Gen is the winner of the California Independent Booksellers Alliance Golden Poppy Martin Cruz Smith Award and long listed for the outstanding works of literature award for the 1st year experience. 1st Gen is also the 2024 Opportunity Matters book club selection for the Council For Opportunity in Education, a national book club for 1st generation and low income students at colleges and universities across the country. Previously, Alejandra served in the Obama White House as the 1st White House deputy director of Hispanic Media. She produced and appeared in the groundbreaking PBS documentary, Inheritance, and founded the Latinos and BRCA Awareness Initiative in partnership with Penn Medicine's Master Center for BRCA. Alejandra holds a master in public policy from Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government and graduated cum laude from USC. She currently serves on the boards of Harvard's Shorenstein Center on Media, Politics and Public Policy, and the California Community Foundation. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:50]: We were able to have this one live in person, so you may notice some slight audio differences in quality. Please enjoy and we're also going to be bringing you couple more bonus episodes throughout the next couple of weeks. Alejandra, welcome to SA Voices. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:02:03]: Thank you so much for having me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:05]: I am really excited to get to know you a little bit and we really appreciate you taking time out of your schedule to talk to SA Voices here in Seattle. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:02:12]: I know. It's fun to be in Seattle. Right? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:13]: Is this your first time? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:02:14]: No. I was actually here a few weeks ago for another conference, but I had so much fun eating my way through the city. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:20]: Oh, what was your favorite thing? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:02:22]: That was a lot. The crumpets over at the Pike Place Market, incredible. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:27]: Crumpets. Okay. That's a new one. Most of my friends say Top Pot Donuts is their their jam or, I haven't been to the crumpet spot. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:35]: This is my hometown so it's always fun for me to see people discover it through fresh eyes. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:02:39]: Nice. Well, you have to give us your tips then. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:42]: Really, it's just don't eat downtown. I think it's my biggest tip. Most of my friends and family enjoy restaurants kind of more out in the community. But we are glad to have you here as our closing keynote speaker for NASPA 2024 here in Seattle. On our theme of transitions, you were just an excellent guest to have to talk about all the transitions you've gone through in your life. Your book right now is 1st Gen, a memoir, and that has been just a really beautiful read. I've been able to take a look at least the first couple of chapters and and really kind of get to know you through that lens. But I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about your journey as you've written about it. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:03:17]: Well, thank you for reading it, Amy. I feel really honored to be invited to speak at NASPA. As I say in the book, the reason why I felt compelled to write it really was because, you know, as someone who was a Pell Grant recipient myself and grew up in a lot of pipeline programs and nonprofits, when I would go and speak to young people, especially students even before this book was even an idea in my mind, I noticed that there seemed to be a lot kind of hanging in the air. Some mixed emotions and almost like looks on folks' faces that I recognize on my own face at these kind of transitional achievement moments that should kind of be 1 dimensional but kind of weren't. And as I noticed that, I started kind of changing the way that I would speak and the kinds of stories I would share. And the more vulnerable I was about how it was harder than many times we're led on to believe in inspirational speeches, really helped crystallize for me how much of not only my own experience but a lot of our experiences have some shame around them that there are conflicting emotions that we don't always share even though they're so completely widespread. And a lot of it namely about the emotional toll of social mobility and the American dream as it's been presented to us. And, you know, in the book, I really talk about how it's for first and only. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:04:45]: I call us first and only because it isn't just this gatekeeper definition of who has a right to kinda like that first gen experience. I understand that in in academia and in different institutions, you need to have a definition of who qualifies and doesn't qualify. But for this emotional experience in the book, it's about being as inclusive as possible because this experience of cycle breaking and that emotional toll transcends race and gender and and so many different experiences. So that was a lens that I discussed this with, and I really use my own story growing up, you know, as the daughter of a single mom who had immigrated from Mexico a few years before I was born to kind of be the companion of walking through a lot of these different dynamics. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:33]: You talk about generational rhyming in your book as part of that transition story. Can you talk to us about what you mean by that? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:05:39]: Well, as a part of this book, I named something called the trailblazer tool. And I don't name that from a position of authority as someone who is a trauma specialist or an academic or a specialist in psychology or so on. The reason why I do that is because as I mentioned, you can't heal from that which you don't name. Mhmm. And so how do we create space for this holistic view that doesn't only include imposter syndrome but includes the way that being a cycle breaker first and only moves throughout our entire life even before we get to school and for many, many years after. You know, once by the time you're a 1st gen student, you've been 1st gen already many times over and you'll continue to be 1st gen. And so to that point, how is it that this even began pre birth? When you're thinking about generational inheritance and emotional inheritances, when you're looking for those answers, they say history doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes. Mhmm. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:06:35]: Well, what is the rhyme that is coming from our family? And they're not just negative. Many are positive. It's not just about generational trauma. It's about emotional inheritances and those I call them invisible inheritances. Many times they're intertwined. Many times, you know, you're looking at the fact in my instance, I have a great grandmother and a mother who both left very chaotic borderline abusive relationships while they were pregnant. Mhmm. Now that's not an inheritance that I would wanna continue. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:07:06]: Yet if you say it a little differently, I have 2 women in my family that left these relationships while they were pregnant. I mean, think of the strength and fortitude it takes to do something like that. So, I mean, I'm proud to be a a beneficiary of that inheritance. And then the third part is the inheritances that we choose to perpetuate as our own future ancestors right now. You know, every day, we have a choice to become a better ancestor. Mhmm. So those are the rhymes that not only we're coming into these lives with, but the rhymes that we're choosing to continue and be intentional about and maybe tweak a little bit. That intentionality is a lot of the end game because I don't have all the answers and this book doesn't pretend like it has all the answers. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:07:51]: But it's about validating and acknowledging a lot of what as first and only is we almost feel like we don't know have the privilege too many times. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:58]: I'm wondering if you can talk to us a bit about being a first generation student who entered collegiate spaces that are really legacy based institutions where maybe you're entering with classmates who have multiple generations of people who went to those institutions who know how they work, who understand the nuance and the subtleties of social culture and enter with a lot more social capital on how to engage in those worlds and how you found yourself evolving into those spaces and ultimately thriving in them. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:08:25]: Well, just how Invisible Inheritance is kind of where we start, you know, a couple steps forward is what I call chutes and social ladders. And I don't know if you remember the board game. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Chutes and Ladders. And the reason why I named it that was because that's what it kind of felt like to me. You know, you land on the right spot. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:08:44]: You do everything just right and you shoot into this different social class, into this different just like societal plane that feels so foreign, yet if you've messed up, God forbid don't do it just perfectly, you can backslide completely out of it. Right? Yeah. Without warning sometimes. Absolutely. And it feels really precarious. And to me, that made sense to me as a way to look at it. In the book, I talk about the familial chaos that I was in, this kind of pressure cooker, as well as in the romantic relationship that I highlight in the book. That's also something else that was, you know, leading to a lot of personal angst. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:09:25]: Mhmm. Yet the way that I was dealing with that was in a lot of ways of trying to kind of stabilize and have some semblance of control in my life by overachieving. Mhmm. You know, how that overachieving and sometimes that perfectionism can be as well as ambition, but can also be a coping mechanism for trauma. Right? And so I was making myself a really good college applicant at the same time as I was really struggling with a lot of issues around this kind of dynamics in my home and my relationships. So by the time I get to USC, it was one blurry summer apart from a very different kind of cultural experience where if anything, I was teased for, quote, acting white because I would get good grades. But then you get to college, and I remember by then, I was already struggling very much with panic attacks and panic disorder, and I had my mom be on campus with me. I grew up under 20 miles from USC's campus but had never visited. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:10:27]: You know, you don't visit colleges. Who does that? Like, what is that? So my mom is there with me pushing this running stroller around with my little sister, and I just didn't want her to be out of my sight because I felt so much pressure. Like, a lot of these students I know. I hear from them. I'm traveling around the country right now talking to them. So much pressure that not only did I have to do this to kind of this was my chance to, you know, break that cycle of poverty, but this was also my chance to help my mom, to help my family. You know, it was this kinda like double layer of stress. And my mom went to the parent orientation and I'm sitting there and feeling that, and all of a sudden, my ears start ringing. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:11:05]: Everything starts getting spinny, and I run out of Boulevard Auditorium in USC and pass out in the middle of campus. So when I came to, somebody had gone to get my mom, and we went to the health center, and then they gave me a prescription and, you know, sent me on my way. And I remember sitting on a bench with her and thinking, oh my god. Am I gonna be able to do this? I worked so hard to be able to get there, and it felt like everything was within grasp that I had dreamed of, that we had dreamed of. But I didn't know if I could physically do it because all of these experiences and these emotional experiences that we're talking about had started catching up with me. Mhmm. You know, and that's that's not something that's unique to me. Right? Because there's a saying I point to in the book, when you're skating over thin ice, your speed is your safety. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:11:52]: Mhmm. And many times that's what it feels like when you're cycle breaking and you're kind of trying to adjust to these new kinda stratosphere jumps, you don't have time to really process what's happening. You're just kind of surviving and morphing and adapting however you can. And there was a lot that was coming up for me at that time. I was fortunate that, you know, my mom was able to help me kind of navigate a little bit but in a lot of ways I ended up experiencing a whole another big jump that was difficult to recalibrate. At the time, my mom, not knowing any better, encouraged me to get involved with the Greek system. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:30]: Okay. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:12:30]: And we can imagine at that time, USC in the late nineties, early 2000, you know, that was like taking me to the most extreme example of kind of world jumping and recalibrating and understanding what that meant for my Latinidad and how it expressed itself on campus. How I was able to show up and fit into a system that had experiences that were beyond my comprehension and how it is that I was able to do that and manage all that while at the same time trying to keep up with grades. And it it was a lot. And I go into this a lot deeper in the book about what that felt like, but I definitely don't. And I'm not saying now nor do I say in the book that I figured it all out. Mhmm. The point was that I was white knuckling it. The point was that I was surviving in that space in those spaces as best I could, but not really understanding a lot of the dynamics that they weren't personal to me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:32]: Like many women of color who are leading in new spaces, you've had transitions in this academic space, you've had transitions with health, and you've had transitions in career. So I wanna talk a little bit about your transitions in health because you're well known as a women's health advocate. When you were going through your own health transitions, how did you balance that with everything else that was going on in the world? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:13:53]: Well, I didn't know that I because I'm a BRCA mutation carrier, hereditary cancer in my family, but I didn't know that until I was in my thirties. So what I did know was that women in my family tended to all get breast cancer. And until my mom's generation, they would pass away from breast cancer. So it was especially when my mom was diagnosed and I was in my early twenties, that was a really pivotal time as far as just graduating from school and trying to figure out, I call it the lonely hustle, how to kind of go after my dreams without any safety net. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:28]: Mhmm. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:14:28]: When my mom was diagnosed with breast cancer, I realized I didn't really have the privilege to do that. I had a little sister that I assumed I was gonna be a single mom too. And so I went home to help take care of my mom during that time and, you know, slept on the air mattress in her living room. And as far as I was concerned, that was it. Your parents, a lot of times, you feel like they sacrifice so much for you to have these opportunities and that feels especially in the dynamics and the cultural dynamics in a lot of our communities that that's a collectivist mindset about what it means when you drop everything to be able to take care of the family unit. And so I didn't realize back then that that was something that I was also going to have to face. Mhmm. But breast cancer has been an ongoing drumbeat throughout my entire life. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:15:17]: You know, I don't go into my own journey with breast cancer in this book because this book ends before that happens. But, you know, when you're thinking about cycle breaking even with our own bodies, you know, how it is we disrupt these cycles in our families and the choice that I made to have preventative surgery at the time, not knowing that when it was after the fact of the surgery, we would discover in retrospect that actually I did have an active breast cancer already developing, which validated that choice. But all that to say is our health is another way that we're able to try to break some of these cycles. And I always say, you know, like one of the the biggest cycles that we can break and we don't always think about is to give ourselves the privilege of rest and balance and that kind of wellness on every different level because we can break cycles of poverty. We can be the first to go to college. We can be the first to have a job or buy a house or so on. But unless we do some of this inner work, one of the biggest cycles that can lead to illness in our body but for sure in our minds and our emotional health is not gonna get broken.  Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:32]: When you think about cycle break in your own life, what advice do you give to others on how they can also engage in that work? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:16:36]: I think that the first step is to be conscious of it, to acknowledge it. And that's the energy that this book is written in for us to know ourselves and for us to know each other and for us to know that we're not alone in these experiences because a lot of it feels so isolating and a lot of it feels just really personal. And if I I've learned anything I mean, I've been to dozens of colleges now across the country. I've been really blessed to speak to so many educators as well. And it's the same experience of nodding everywhere that I go. Mhmm. Nodding in tears and acknowledgement. And sometimes people will raise their hands and I remember I was speaking in Miami, and this gentleman raised his hand. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:17:17]: He said, how do you deal with, like, the loneliness? And he started crying. And I looked out at the crowd, and I and I tell you, there were so many people crying. And I told them, I said, well, take a look around. Do you feel alone? Look at all these people that that are feeling the same thing you're feeling. And that's what the energy that this book is hopefully calling us to, which is to take a look around and acknowledge all the nodding heads. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:45]: I think one of the most powerful things you do in this book is give voice to a common experience that a lot of people are afraid to talk about or afraid to say out loud because we live in a capitalist society. We're fearful of being perceived as, you know, not always out in front of things sometimes. So I really appreciate that you're naming a lot of this, and it's clearly resonating with audiences around the country, and I'm sure will be very resonant for our NASPA members here, especially for our professionals who are 1st and onlys or are there 1st gen in their family to attain a university degree and then likely an advanced degree, and now we're all working in this field where a lot of people don't really understand our work. It's kind of an ongoing joke in student affairs that even our own parents don't understand what we do on a daily basis. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:18:26]: And I write about that in the book that that's a loneliness inducing experience as as well that I write about when you go home. And I mean, I would come home from the White House and I wouldn't get questions about my work, and that's at a neutral level. Then there's the hands of the students where they raise their hands and say, I'm dissuaded from doing these things. They're told, like, why are you doing this? Why don't you get a more job where you make more money? Why would you study abroad? That's a waste of your time. Almost kind of getting this negative messaging. But to your point, that's why I feel so honored to be speaking here at NASPA because on so many different levels, a, you guys are the ones on the ground. You guys are the ones on the ground with these students every day working so hard and doing so much to support the leaders of the future. And also because I see very clearly how many of the educators I'm speaking to are literally these students who also had the same experience. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:19:23]: You know, we get called to the work that we do, whether it's writing books or being an educator because of something usually very personal. We're called to something because of the empathy many times that we have for experiences. And like I said earlier, the book is written not just about that part of the student experience. There's many many chapters about what happens when you're on the other side of the sausage maker, which is all of us. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:49]: Mhmm. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:19:50]: And you're gonna spit out the other side and you're like, okay, woah, what happened? Because there is a point where you're the arc of the first gen experience kind of concludes. That doesn't mean that you don't have ambitions for the future and you don't have all these other things you wanna accomplish, but that initial kind of ascension into breaking out of certain cycles, same things that originally was driving me? Are they the same things or have they shifted? And if they've shifted, then how is it that I show up differently? You also name feelings of imposter syndrome in Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:31]: the book, especially when you're first invited into the White House spaces and during your process of getting top secret security clearance and all of those things. How did you work through those feelings of imposter syndrome even though you're sitting in some of the most powerful spaces in the world at that point in time and knowing that so many of our listeners are facing impostor syndrome in their own careers even though, you know, we're all qualified to be in the spaces we're in? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:20:53]: Well, one of the things that I really make a point to highlight in the book is I actually really have a problem with the idea of impostor syndrome as it was presented to me. I'll make it personal, as I've seen it be presented also in general, is the idea that it really is about this crisis of confidence singularly and not about the second part of it, the other side of the coin, which is no matter how confident we are, how it is that the way that we show up or we're received in these spaces and in these kind of constructs that is reflected back to us sometimes that we don't belong in ways that are subtle and not so subtle at times. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:29]: I think imposter syndrome syndrome's a system issue personally. Right? It's 2 ways. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:21:34]: Exactly. I mean, it's 2 ways. We we still have to acknowledge our contributions and show up in that space and there's systemic issues at play too. And so that's the lens through which I talk about it at that time at the White House and not just at the White House, but that nuance, I think, is helpful because I know when I used to blame myself for feeling a lack of confidence, it's not fair on top of everything else. It's also we're pointing the arrow directly back at students to just feel more confident and not acknowledging the dynamics with which they're operating. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:14]: Is there anything else you want our NASPA membership to hear from you today? Just that Alejandra Campoverdi [00:22:18]: I had several inflection points that I talk about in the book that really had to do with either an educator or a mentor, someone in a position of power saying something, doing something that completely changed my life. And I wasn't someone who had mentors that would follow my life for decades. You know, it was these angels that sometimes would step in and sometimes would derail, you know. Sometimes people help you in ways that are positive and negative to kinda get you back on track. Mhmm. But the point is that these people in my life and certain things they said and didn't encourage me to do changed everything. And so I like I said, my message is gratitude to this community for being the in the spaces between the bullet points because that's what I call it in the book. That's what the book is. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:23:08]: I wanted to write something that didn't just look at the bullet points on my resume or in my bio the same way that all of us have our schools and our achievements and our jobs, but that's not where the real story lies. It's really in the spaces between those bullet points and that's where you guys are. That's where the whole story goes one way or another. And so it's just expressing my gratitude for the work that you do and for the way that you're changing lives every day. Before we go to our break, I Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:37]: would be remiss if I didn't ask how cool is it to be on Air Force Alejandra Campoverdi [00:23:40]: There's nothing cooler. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:43]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:49]: Thanks so much, Jill. Really excited to be back in the NASPA world. And today, I am really excited to be able to share some amazing news. If you missed it, an email was sent out after the annual conference that NASPA has selected a new president. We are thrilled to share with you that the outcome of the national search of the NASPA president has concluded. And after a thoughtful and deliberate process spanning the past 6 months, the NASPA board of directors have selected Dr. Amelia Parnell as the next President of NASPA. You may know Amelia the from her work as vice president for research and policy at NASPA, a position that she's held since 2015. In this role, she has selected the association's research policy and publications portfolio, providing critical thought and support to the membership. She oversees large scale projects, represents NASPA globally, is speaking engagements in the media, and leads analysis of applicable federal and state legislation and regulatory developments. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:53]: Over the past 8 years, Amelia has secured over $22,000,000 in philanthropic funding, represented NASPA through service to over 20 organizations, including the US Department of Education, and served as the chair of the governing board for the Higher Ed Equity Network and Chair of the Finance and Investment Committee for the EDUCAUSE Board of Directors. Additionally, she has led an 18 month examination of the future of student affairs, overseeing a large volunteer and staff task force and engaging in listening sessions with NASPA members. Prior to NASPA, Amelia served as Director of Research Initiatives at the Association For Institutional Research and Director of National Survey Research for the Association For Institutional Research. From 2005 to 2012, she served as education policy analyst for the Florida Legislature. Amelia has authored numerous scholarly articles and has been regularly quoted in national and trade publications. She is author of the recent book, You Are a Data Person, Strategies for Using Analytics on Campus, which has sold over 3,000 copies to date and is widely used by institutions across the country. She is also a faculty member for the Institute on ePortfolios of the American Association of Colleges and Universities. Amelia holds a BS and MBA in Business Administration from Florida A&M University and a PhD in Higher Education from Florida State University. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:21]: Beyond Amelia's credentials and organizational knowledge, the search committee and the board were most impressed by her vision for continuing to position NASPA as an indispensable organization serving the student affairs profession and higher education more broadly. Her collaborative leadership style combined with her extensive experience and genuine commitment to student success set her apart in a strong and diverse field of applicants for the position. Emilia will begin her tenure as president on July 1, 2024, at which time Kevin Kruger will become president emeritus. As we continue to move toward this next chapter in NASPA's story, we wanna thank the NASPA president search committee and especially the co chairs, Betty Simmons, retired vice president of student development enrollment management at County College of Morris and Pat Whiteley, senior vice president for student affairs and alumni engagement at the University of Miami. These volunteers gave so much of their time to ensure that the next leader of NASPA would be someone who can build on the successes of the last 12 years and position the organization to help its members face the challenges that we know lie ahead. In selecting Amelia, they have done exactly that. We would also like to extend our thanks to the team at Korn Kari for their counsel and support in this search. Our largest congratulations go out to doctor Amelia Parnell, past guest of the show, and we will be having her in the future to talk about that vision for NASPA. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:47]: Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways, because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, Hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:12]: Chris, thank you so much for this week's edition of NASPA World. We always appreciate you keeping us updated on what's going around in and around NASPA. And, Alejandra, we have our lightning round questions now. I've got 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:29:26]: Okay. Let's go. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:27]: Alright. Question number 1. Since you are a conference keynote speaker, if you got to choose your entrance music, what would it be? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:29:33]: Well, I don't know if it's a known fact but First Gen has a playlist cause each chapter title is a song. So I'm gonna pick one of the songs off of the playlist which is Fast Car, Tracy Chapman version though. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:46]: Oh, she just performed recently. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:29:47]: Oh, so good. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:47]: Love her. So good. I'm gonna sidetrack us and say where can people find your playlist? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:29:51]: It's on Spotify and in the back of the book, there's a link. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:54]: Alright. Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:29:58]: When I was 5 years old, I wanted to be Cinderella. I actually write about that in the book. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:05]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:30:08]: My most influential professional mentor was my boss at the White House for a lot of reasons and I I actually there's a whole scene in the book about the way she modeled to me what true leadership was like and really had the power to be able to either support me or not support me in a very pivotal moment at the beginning of the book. And she, to this day, is somebody who's still in my life and threw me a book party when the book came out, which meant a lot. So I would have to say her. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:38]: Number 4, your essential higher education read. I'd be remiss Alejandra Campoverdi [00:30:41]: if I didn't say 1st gen. Come on. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:43]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:30:47]: I watched Breaking Bad again. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:48]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in Alejandra Campoverdi [00:30:51]: the last year. So because I actually, over the past year, have been so crazy promoting the book. I haven't listened to a lot of podcast. I'm gonna give a shout out to this one. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:00]: Thank you. Alejandra Campoverdi [00:31:02]: So SA Voices from the Field. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:04]: And finally, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? I just like to Alejandra Campoverdi [00:31:08]: thank the NASPA family for welcoming me and of course to Dina over at the First Gen Center. I've had such an incredible experience getting to know folks in this world and a lot of the folks in student affairs and 1st gen programs. And so shout out to everyone here and the work that they're doing and to you for having me. I appreciate it. Again, the Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:28]: book is First Gen, a memoir by Alejandra Campoverdi. You can pick it up in the NASPA bookstore or wherever you buy books. Now if folks would like to book you for a speaking tour on their campus or reach you otherwise, how can they find you? Well, Alejandra Campoverdi [00:31:40]: I'm super in my DMs. So you could DM me on Instagram or send me a LinkedIn message or on my website. There's an email that you can also reach out to me there. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:50]: And what's your website? Alejandra Campoverdi [00:31:51]: Alejandracampoverdi.com. Thank you Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:54]: so much, for sharing your voice with us today. Thank you. This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at sa voices at nasa dotorg or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:26]: We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

**Advancing DEI Values** In an enlightening new episode of SA Voices From The Field Dr. Jill Creighton invites Shawntal Brown, an advocate for diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI), to share her insights on driving institutional support for these crucial values. Shawntal emphasizes how integrating DEI into the fabric of higher education is not just beneficial but essential for creating welcoming and inclusive environments. **The Research Journey** Shawntal's research journey reveals a strategic pivot from focusing on staff insights to exploring university presidents' role in championing DEI. This shift underscores the importance of leadership buy-in for effective DEI initiatives **Navigating Complex Social Landscapes** Proactive DEI work is emerging as a priority in contemporary academia. Dr. Jill and Shawntal discuss the challenges posed by today's charged social and political climates, emphasizing the need for steadfast commitment to DEI principles. **Legislative Impacts on DEI** Texas Senate Bill 17's severe restrictions on diversity trainings and resources present significant hurdles. Shawntal offers a poignant analysis of the bill's consequences, exploring the complex task of reconciling legislative compliance with DEI values. **Staying True to DEI Amidst Legal Challenges** Transitioning DEI efforts to align with new legislation while adhering to core values is a delicate balance. Shawntal reflects on her time in the school of engineering, bringing a personal touch to her professional dedication to supporting students. **Self-Care for DEI Professionals** Shawntal wisely advises her peers to prioritize self-care while traversing the treacherous waters of DEI work, advocating for a strong support system amidst the current landscape. **Professional Development and Community Building** Promising initiatives like the NASPA 2024 Mid Level Administrators Conference and the Women's Leadership Institute provide pivotal growth and networking opportunities for DEI professionals. **Resources Against Regressive Legislation** Sharing resources and staying informed are vital for navigating legislative impacts on higher education, as Shawntal passionately discusses. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of On Transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Hey, essay voices. Welcome back for our next episode. And today, I'm very excited to introduce you to Shawntal Brown. Shawntal aims to advance the values of diversity, equity, and inclusion and promote servant leadership through her research, service, and formal academic appointments. In her current appointment as senior outreach program coordinator for initiatives for campus support in the division of campus and community engagement at the University of Texas at Austin, Shawntal builds connections with students, staff, and faculty so the campus community members can experience a welcoming and inclusive campus climate. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:57]: She enjoys a research based approach to community building, including leveraging campus climate assessment findings to develop resources and strategically approach campus outreach to support equitable environments at the university. Her equity lens is also evident in her service and accolades. Shawntal is the co-president of the Texas Association of Diversity Officers in Higher Education or TADAHE for short and provides TADAHE administrators with professional and personal development opportunities in alignment with the mission, envision, and equity and inclusive experience of the organization. Additionally, she received the NASPA Region 3 DEI Mosaic Award for her passion and support of diversity, equity, and inclusion through her advocacy and research. Shawntal's doctoral research focuses on university presidents and their commitments to DEI through their organizational perspective. Her work, mapping pleasure and pain of women's bodies, Southern Black feminist geographic interventions in the journal Gender, Place, and Culture. And Additionally, she has co authored with doctor Michael a Goodman in ACPA developments called It'll Be Like Biden and Harris, a Black Woman's Conundrum in Collegiate Student Government. To bridge research and practice across disciplines, Shawntal regularly presents at different conferences, including National Women's Studies Association, the Texas Association College and University Student Personnel Administrators or TCUPSA Group, and with NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:16]: Hope you enjoy our conversation. Before this episode moves forward today, I want to ensure that we clarify the timeline for the conversation. Shawntal and I had the pleasure of speaking in mid February 2024. This was prior to the layoffs happening at the University of Florida in the DEIB space. So if you don't hear us reference it or you're confused why something sounds a little different than your expectations, it's because that particular action simply had not occurred yet when this conversation was recorded. If you are a person at the University of Florida who's been impacted by the legislation and by job loss, just want to say that I'm thinking about you and hope that you're able to progress forward in a way that is meaningful and also still helps our students feel included, not just feel included, but become included in our collegiate spaces. I appreciate all of the work that you all are doing and have done. Shawntal, we are thrilled to welcome you to SA Voices. Shawntal Brown [00:03:14]: Yes. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited for today. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:17]: And in our theme of transitions, we're going to be talking about your transitions primarily as a diversity educator and student activist all the way through to professional who's supporting students who are engaging in activism. And we always love to get to know our guests by asking you how you got to your current seat. Shawntal Brown [00:03:34]: Yes. So I think going back, I am originally from Oklahoma City. So transferred to Austin, Texas for my master's in women's and gender studies. And so while I was a master's student, I was just trying to find my way of, like, you know, what do I wanna do as a career? What do I want to, like, focus on? And I found myself being in spaces that primarily supported minority student populations. And so first started out in a center called the Gender and Sexuality Center, supported LGBTQIA students, women students within that space, and led different opportunities like a feminist Friday, where we talked about different topics focused on, like, you know, feminist theory, talking about occurring events, things like that. Just supporting folks who are like in different organizations. And so as I was in that space, I was like, I kinda like this. This is like a really cool space to be in. Shawntal Brown [00:04:23]: I really enjoyed just working along the different program programs that they did, events that were had. And I was like there's there's something about this that I like and so after I finish that internship, I started working at the international office at my institution at the University of Texas at Austin, and I was working with, like, different students from different, countries. So from, like, China, Germany, you name it. We were working with those student populations. And to do that event, I was considered a assistant program coordinator then. And before, I'm not formally trained in, you know, student theory, higher education, and that sends for my master's degree. And so I was like, I wonder how this could pan out as a job in the future. And so slowly but surely continue to do that work, working with different student groups, whether they're international, whether they were, like, you know, minoritized populations, campus. Shawntal Brown [00:05:17]: And then I found myself, like, I think this is, like, the career path that I wanna go down. And so I was applying for positions that are specifically working with underrepresented students, especially women students. I wanted to, you know, continue to do that work. And after a while, I was able to become a student program coordinator in an engineering office that supported underrepresented students, which was an amazing opportunity because I, like, advise student groups, a lot of professional groups like the National Society of Black Engineers, Society of Hispanic Professional Engineers. I was able to put on programs to welcome, like, prospective students. I did a lot of recruitment work, and then also did, like, classes, taught, like, research research course, getting students it really interested in graduate school, especially underrepresented students because I was just like, you in this space are so important to have as a potential, like, faculty member, as a mentor for, like, future students that are coming behind you. And so I was really passionate about doing that work. But really in that role is doing, like, a little bit of everything, becoming like a Swiss army knife, if you will, in, the space. Shawntal Brown [00:06:18]: So really getting to know different skills that I was building and helping folks academically, helping folks professionally, you know, all those different realms for those student groups. And so after a while, I was like, this has been a really great opportunity just to really get to know these students, seeing them grow in their different ways. And so that was, like, my first full time position to really see, like, this is a really great opportunity to work with these students. And so now my current role as a senior outreach program coordinator, I work in a division of the of campus and community engagement. It's more focused on the broader campus community as supporting students, staff, and faculty to make sure they have a welcoming and accessible, like, experience at the institution. But really, my pathway kind of just helping support underrepresented groups has been really just like the foundation of where I found myself at the institution and just really enjoy the work that I do. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:09]: And I'll give you a shout out for your work for our listeners. As we mentioned in the bio, Shawntal actually received a NASPA award region 3 for, the DEI Mosaic award supporting diversity, equity, and inclusion. So can you tell us about what work led to that recognition? Shawntal Brown [00:07:24]: Yeah. Oh, goodness. I would just also wanna shout out the folks who willingly nominated me. I was like, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. The it was really like a lot of the work that I have done has really been focused on, just supporting the professionals in my role with the Techs Association of Diversity Officers in Higher Education. A mouthful I know, but we call it TADAA here, was really the opportunity for me to really branch out and network with other DEI professionals rather in the state of Texas. Shawntal Brown [00:07:51]: And so that was kind of, like, one of the many things that folks saw me doing. I'm currently the co president for that. And so that has kind of, like, led to to that recementing my foundation within DEI. I think just also the support of, underrepresented students, like I've mentioned, has really just been, like, the cracks that people can see that connection building that I really love to just put forth with people. And let me see. I think I'm trying to remember one more. I feel like I'm forgetting one more, but I think folks see the overall research. And I'm also doing my my doctorate part time, doing my research focusing on diversity, equity, inclusion. Shawntal Brown [00:08:28]: And I think people see that that's something that's really just a core value to my, like, higher ed professional life profile. And so I think the folks who nominated me really saw and let that shine through when they wrote those nominations. So I'm really appreciative for them. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:44]: And the work that you were doing for that recognition, also extremely important and kind of unique to tie into higher education. Can you talk a little bit about how you found your research topic? Because I know that is a major question for almost every doctoral student on the planet. Everyone's either on this very big mind space of wanting to study everything, maybe a little bit lost on not knowing what to study. Shawntal Brown [00:09:06]: Yeah. That's a great question. I think I really started out with, like, the crux of, like, I'm really interested in DEI in my research, but where do I go here? And initially, I was trying to focus more on, like, the staff perspective of, like, flipping it. Like, what could staff do to make DEI more cemented in their goals and their, like, you know, opportunities and things like that. But then I was, like, really sitting with it's bigger than this because my personal opinion in thinking about the institution, I feel like DEI should be really just linked up into, like it should be fully embedded into the infrastructure of the institution. So I was, like, thinking, how can that happen? What does that look like? And read through, like, the literature that I have gone through at this point. They talked about chief diversity officers as, like, really important people to have in these roles, really important to have in these spaces to really amplify that voice. But then in the case of my research specifically, I was like, you know what? Let's shift it. Shawntal Brown [00:10:00]: Like, what does it mean to have a university president who really supports this? And so that's kind of the perspective I'm taking up. Like, what does it mean for your leadership up above to support the values of diversity and inclusion, whether it be in their state of union addresses and strategic plans. Like what does that mean for them to do this work? And so it was something that it took me a while to get there. I think I kind of, like, was taking the different angles. I think of it as like a diamond. I was like, I'm on this face of the diamond, but I I need to just go over to this face to this face. And now I'm like, oh, I kind of hit where I wanna be. And it's really interesting. Shawntal Brown [00:10:34]: I might nerd out a little bit on researching because I'm really excited about it to really look at one specific, president that is at the University of Texas at Boston who had a really amazing legacy that I've heard so far, who was William c Powers, who just really did a lot of great work and really amplified diversity, equity, inclusion here. And so I'm kind of curious, how did he do this work? How did he get here? And so I'm very excited to start get to the process of, like, interviewing, chatting with folks to kinda hear about the experiences that people may have had with him. So I'm I'm really excited just to see what does this mean for other future university presidents? What does it mean for folks who are, like, aspiring for this role who also love diversity, equity, inclusion, or value diversity, equity, inclusion too? So I'm really excited for this. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:15]: I think that's really important work to look at that narrative perspective on what it actually looks like in practice. I know that our NASPA colleagues put out a publication not too long ago about campus statements in response to acts of racial aggression or ethnic aggression or marginalized identity based aggression and what they looked like, some of their impact and things like that that came out, I wanna say, maybe couple of years ago. It was post the murder of George Floyd, but it was, I think, still during the pandemic when that came out. So that maybe kind of losing a little steam in terms of age as we all know research does, but I appreciate that I think what you're doing is carrying that forward and looking a little bit deeper at one individual perspective. But I'm wondering as a professional in the DEI realm, what you're seeing in terms of transitioning the work that you're doing because I feel like for a long time, the field was in reactive mode because there was so much happening. And now maybe we're swinging back to being more proactive. What do you see? Shawntal Brown [00:12:13]: No. I think that's really important now, especially with, like, the social political climate happening, you know, states like Texas, very conservative states with the anti DEI legislature that's going on. And so I think it's an opportunity for professionals who are trying to, 1, remain in compliance with, like, you know, the new law. But then, 2, for folks who are, like, needing to really resubmit and reaffirm the work that they're doing. And so it's definitely, like, a difficult balance right now because to think more broadly about what's going on, folks of the AI professionals or, you know, the new spaces that folks are in trying to still support the new type of work that we're doing is a really tough place. It's definitely like a lot of losses happened, but I think it's more important now than ever to learn how to be proactive in the spaces, especially That's a generous word. Yeah. It's a unique time. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:11]: That's a generous word. Shawntal Brown [00:13:13]: Yeah. It's a unique time. And so I think it I think there is, like, a future of what we can do to continue to support a version of diversity work and what it can be. But I think it's definitely like a we're kinda rolling with the punches. And I think the proactive piece will definitely it still needs to be there, but I think it'll just have to be a different way of shaping it for it to be still present in our values in of itself, if that makes sense. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:42]: So the unique thing always about the US is that depending on which state you're in, the rules shift drastically. We also have quite a few national members who are not within the United States. So can you please elucidate a little bit what's going on in Texas with the law? Shawntal Brown [00:13:56]: Yes. No. That's important to just kind of get out of my US centric perspective. So in Texas specifically, there was a bill passed called 7 senate bill 17. It's more colloquially described as, like, the anti DEI bill. And so with this, the bill asked for many different things to be discontinued, such as, like, diversity trainings, opportunities to have specific affinity groups, ally trainings, different types of statements made by individuals. So, like, diversity statements are no longer able to be offered by faculty who are looking into precisions at their institutions. But many all of it did really say that is trying to aim towards, like, a color blind, gender neutral approach to things that happens at the institution, which is very difficult because a lot of the current DEI offices in Texas specifically have to go through undergo a lot of changes. Shawntal Brown [00:14:49]: And some of these changes resulted a lot of them were resolved. And then an office that, you know, had to come back with something that was gonna abide by the current law of senate bill 17. And so it's definitely been a lot of upheaval just like not specifically I would say upheaval watching it as a professional at my institution, but also looking at the broader, like, Texas institutions and seeing how the different changes are happening. And that's definitely been, like, a really tough time overall just kind of navigating the the spaces and how everyone's kind of doing things a little bit differently. So it's been tough in that front. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:25]: I think Texas, Utah, and Florida are all kind of in the same space right now. How are you transitioning your work on a day to day basis from what maybe you would have done last year or things like trainings or just general inclusion in your campus community? And how do you work towards that now given it feels like it's a little bit antithesis to the new law? Shawntal Brown [00:15:50]: Yeah. I think I'll I'll highlight Tadee because I think it is a moment where us as an organization, we really wanna provide resources to staff in those spaces and really help them kind of understand the new law and also building community with each other. Because since we Texas is so big, so spread out, there's so many institutions here. And so it's really, like, important to have, like, the community building, like, resource offering to folks because, like I mentioned, like, everyone's doing things a little bit differently, understanding the the law a little bit differently. And so that makes it really tough. I can empathize and, like, relate to, like, the feeling of, like, isolation in some ways of, oh my goodness. We're this little hub here, and we're doing this in this way. And then watching, like, a little hub there, and they're doing it that way. Shawntal Brown [00:16:40]: And so I think I am fortunate to be in a role with Tati just to kind of be a support system in this time and just really try to bring together the conversations with individuals. Like, we're having our annual summit that's coming up in the summertime, and so we're really trying to bring people, like, let's chat about this. Let's understand it. How can we work together in this time? How can we support each other in this time? And so that's our main push right now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:04]: And what are you seeing that's working? Shawntal Brown [00:17:06]: I feel like, you know, in the in the broader sense, I think the resource sharing has been more, this is our key. We need to chat about this. We need to talk about these conversations. So resource sharing has been very helpful. Just to understand what's happening at other campuses because we're this is still new. We're about, what, a month in to this new legislature. So it's kind of like, oh, yeah. We need to chat with each other. Shawntal Brown [00:17:27]: We need to talk to each other. And so definitely, like, receiving articles, keeping up with the news, reading about what's changing, what's happening across the country, across the state, it's been really important during this time. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:38]: And anyone in particular who's been implementing practice differently now in terms of being able to do the work and stay in alignment with what the legislature expects? Shawntal Brown [00:17:48]: Yeah. I think that's a really great question. And I think a lot of the work that we used to do within our spaces cannot continue. And that's really been tough for us as higher ed professionals to learn the restrictions and the confines that we have to navigate with this new law. And so it really hurts because there's great losses that hasn't been acknowledged enough. I would say just to know that there are centers that are closed that used to support LGBTQ students. There are positions that are being let go of at different institutions. And so there's a lot of grieving that is happening right now amid these different anti DEI laws. Shawntal Brown [00:18:31]: And so it makes the work that we try to do within the confines of this law much more difficult because we are trying to make sure that we are in compliance to new law. So there's a lot of barriers to us now. And so it does impede a lot of the progress that was made in prior years that we're trying to, you know, we were trying to advance towards equity, and now we can't. And so it's definitely very much antithetical to the work that was previously done, and it's making it more difficult for higher ed professionals to continue to do this work. And so, yeah, that's been really tough and really difficult to just sit with currently. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:09]: Yeah. Let's talk about your students as well or the students in the state of Texas because, you know, we we think about the impact to the profession. We think about, you know, the impact to how our faculty colleagues are also responding. But at the end of the day, the number one population impacted is probably the students who will either no longer be receiving this type of education or who maybe relied on services or communities, that are no longer either allowed or at least recognizable under this new law. So how is that playing out? Shawntal Brown [00:19:44]: I think in the sense of this law, the students have really stepped up in some ways. And I know that's kind of a tricky thing because I know my personal, like, soap boxes that students came to the institution to learn and not have to do so much advocacy work. And so I hold a bit of tension with it in some ways. But I also say that they have a lot of voice in what they can do and make institutional leaders know, like, this is a problem. We're missing this. We're hurting. We want to make sure that you understand this loud and clear. And I think, like, you know, throughout social media, throughout, like, my personal experience of, like, what I'm seeing broadly is, like, I think that student voice is really important right now. Shawntal Brown [00:20:24]: It's critical right now, and it's so needed because they are being heard. They are, you know, doing their own organizing. And there are groups that are even outside of the institution that are doing their organizing that, you know, are putting their own resources together to really band with each other, which is really important too. And so I really admire and appreciate what they're doing because it's really gonna be something that's, 1, gonna be important in when we look back at this time to see the work that they've done and acknowledge that work. But then, 2, it's gonna be something that we may need to think about in the future sense too of, like, you know, how can we make sure that students, in a broader sense, kind of get information that's gonna be helpful for them prior to, like, the bills coming up. Maybe more of a, how can we think about legislative, like, education and advocacy for our students? Like, how can that be built into our to our programming and our systems, like, in the future too? So it's kind of like a thought that I hadn't missed about this kind of reflecting the experiences. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:20]: And you were a student activist before becoming a professional in the DEI space. How has your take on the work changed from being a student in the space to being a professional who's leading others in the space? Shawntal Brown [00:21:32]: I think in my experience, I guess, like for context, I went to the University of Oklahoma for my alma mater. And so there is a unfortunately, a racist incident that happened at the institution that is known as the Sigma Alpha Epsilon, incident. Institution that is known as the Sigma Alpha Epsilon, incident or SAE. It had a lot of, like, press CNN, a lot of, like, you know, large global and local news kind of took over it. And, essentially, it really alienated black students on campus because the fraternity didn't want black men to be part of their organization. And so it was something where in that student activist perspective, I was like, my voice, I feel like I need to share something. Like, my voice is needed in this conversation, and I wanna be able to contribute. And so to really do a lot of work of, like, making your voice known at that time was really important and also engaging in different conversations that people were having. Shawntal Brown [00:22:24]: So whether it was me on social media talking about, you know, this is why this isn't, you know, this is the article, current events. This is what I think about it. We need to kind of think about how we can incorporate this at the institution is one way I kinda contribute my voice in the conversation. And also showing up to, like, meetings with senior leadership as well as a way to kind of put the face and name, help them understand how we can better improve the experiences for black students specifically at the campus, but also like black faculty to consider them and black staff to consider them. And I think that was really important during that time in addition to there's already a, like, a student activist group called O You and Her that I always tell folks, like, I feel like I was at the 2nd wave of that organization. And the 1st wave of folks were really doing the work, and the 2nd wave was kind of thinking more of, like, how can we make this work be expansive than just this time frame that we're having now. And so to think about all those different experience as a student activist that I've had and coming into this role as, like, being a full time professional, it was interesting to think about when 2020 did happen and then the murder of George Floyd did occur, that there was a lot of student voice that was happening when I was in my role in the the school of engineering. And I was like, oh, when I was in my role in the the school of engineering. And I was like, oh my goodness. This is very reminiscent. This feels familiar. And it was a moment for me to kind of think about, like, where do I step in and where do I step back? Because I know as a professional, there's, like, all the different layers of, like, you know, you cannot represent, like, the institution. You can't represent your department, but how else can you support these students? And so really to be like the the listening ear or the person who's signing, like the list of demands that they had to kind of like cosign with them. If I was able to do that with them, then that was something that I was, like, I feel good about supporting you in this way or folks that, like, wanting to talk about advice about navigating the space or what made sense or who to talk to. Shawntal Brown [00:24:13]: I think that's kind of how it shifted in a way of from the student perspective, I felt more, I guess, I don't wanna say without restriction, but I guess, like, there's a freeness around, like, you know, how I can, like, express my voice and how I can express my opinion and thoughts and things of that way. But as a staff member, I had to kinda reflect on my sense of, like, power and privilege and kind of, like, know when I can, like, step up in that space and, like, help support or need to step back and let the students kind of lead that and let me be in the background. And so I think that perspective overall has really kind of helped better understand or I guess better empathize really when students do use their voice or, you know, need support in using their voice and kinda think about how the greater picture of, like, what can change at an institution really look like overall with those two perspectives in mind? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:00]: That is a really important lesson that I think a lot of us in campus based higher education need to relearn often, which is in student affairs, we are more often than not the primary advocate and voice for student needs within a university's administration. And that voice has a lot of power, but also it can be marginalized at an institution in a lot of cases. And so often I I think about how much power our students really do have compared to staff, and it is a very different balance. And deciding to sign on to a position statement with students is an interesting balance of choice that we all have to make when presented with that choice. Can you talk a little bit about how you make that choice, to determine whether you're signing on to something that your students are advocating for versus not? Shawntal Brown [00:25:50]: I think that's a delicate balance. And truthfully, I think I'm still learning. I think in that space of thinking about when I was in engineering, I was appreciative that other staff members were willing to do that same thing for students. And so I felt that since the community from trusted folks who were, like, signing on to their to their positionality statements and speaking up in that way. And I think it was more of a communal thing of, like, you know, yes, we agree with you. We see you. We see the work that you're doing. I think in in now, I think in some ways, I still do that. Shawntal Brown [00:26:22]: But sometimes I'm used like a personal email, for example, as a way to still kind of do that work because I feel, you know, there is I think I've hear this so many times, like, there's power in numbers and it's really important. And so if I can still provide that support and maybe it's more of a perfect like a personal like, I personally feel like this is something critical that the institution needs to listen to. I will do that work because I want to see the institution or whatever the department, the office change for the better. And once it changes for the better, it changes for everyone. And it's a it's a win for everyone, I feel. And so I think that's like the subtle way I have done it. There's probably other ways that folks probably have thought through it, but I think that's the my catch for all that balancing. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:07]: Especially if you're a public employee choosing to use a personal email is a big thing. Right? So I think everyone would be smart to check with their local regulations on what that means for public records and whole bunch of other things. But, yeah, it's it's definitely an interesting balance. And then at some point in your career as you grow, that letter's being sent to you as opposed to you being asked to sign on to it. And then we're in a position to decide how we engage in dialogue and actions and how we determine what's actionable and not actionable. What's usually, everything is quite reasonable, but what is actionable is a different question given budget and time and, human resources and all those things. I absolutely have so much respect for what's going on for DEI professionals. And as like I said, in Texas, Utah, Florida, you all are on the forefront of what could be a policy trend. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:01]: And then on the other side, you know, we've got states that are instituting protective measures for these efforts instead. Do you have any advice for DEI professionals who are out there navigating these waters on a daily? Shawntal Brown [00:28:14]: I guess one thing is please take care of yourself during this time because it's hard. It has definitely been hard. I think that that has been the biggest thing that I feel like I'm still in some ways learning of, like, needing to step away for a moment as much as I'm able to and kind of step back. Because at the end of the day, it's like it's a very large thing that's happening, like, across the United States, across specific states. And I think if you have the support to lean on someone else or to tap in someone else to kind of be there for you as you kind of, like, take that moment to yourself is really important. I think it's a tricky thing, but I think that's something that I wish I kinda had that person, like, in the midst of things changing or learning about the legislation. I kinda wish I had a tap and being like, hey, Shawntal, you need to go sit down for a moment. You need to rest for a moment. Shawntal Brown [00:29:04]: And that has been something that I feel like that is at the core now. For me, it's just kind of slowing down, taking the step away, reading a book, meditating, whatever I need to to kind of repour my cup for myself and to kind of still understand the the current landscape that we're in. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:20]: It's such simple and beautiful advice, but so hard to actually do. The delivery of that is really challenging, I think, in the hustle and bustle of our present day. Shawntal Brown [00:29:30]: Yes. But it's a good like a reminder. So check-in, it's kind of like check-in like, Hey, how are you doing? And then really kind of assess like, what makes sense for you to like, continue in the day. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:41]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:47]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world and a lot of things happening. Though we're past the NASPA annual conference, there's a number of other professional development opportunities that are coming up. One such event is the 2024 NASPA Mid Level Administrators Conference. The early registration for this conference closes on Friday, March 29th. Join us in Indianapolis, Indiana for a transformative professional development experience tailored for mid level student affairs professionals like you. Discover cutting edge strategies for organizational leadership, master the art of managing from the middle, and unlock your full potential in influencing change. Connect with peers, exchange insights, and build a robust network of allies to support your growth. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:32]: Don't miss out on this opportunity to level up your skills and take your career to new heights. Register now and embark on a journey of growth, learning, and connection at mlac 2024. The conference itself runs from June 13th to June 15th in Indianapolis, Indiana. If you want more information, go to the NASPA website and find out more. The 2024 Women's Leadership Institute is running from December 10th through 13th in San Diego, California. ACUI, Association of College Unions International, and NASPA are partnering to bring you an experience focused on women leaders in higher education. This institute offers strategies for women who plan to lead with lasting impact. ACUI and NASPA are seeking programs that will inspire participants to become an inspirational and effective leader. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:23]: The program is designed by women for women. If you have a program that you would like to submit, submit it on the NASPA website by April 26th to be considered for this. Some of the topics that the Leadership Institute looks to cover include supervision and performance management, strategic planning, financial well-being, upskill, reskill the bridge to the future, delegating and giving away, picking up new skills and putting things down among others. Again, the deadline to submit your program is April 26, and I encourage you to go to the NASPA website to find out more. Volume 25 of the Journal of College and Character is out. And as a NASPA member, you have access to the Journal of College and Character among a number of other great journals that will help you in your own professional development. This peer reviewed publication has a number of amazing articles that are in it. And in this issue, there are a ton of peer reviewed articles as well as some specific focus areas on student engagement with spiritual and secular world views, diversity and social justice and interfaith cooperation. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:36]: I highly encourage you to check out the Journal of College and Character for yourself. If you've never checked out the journals, go to the NASPA website, highlight publications, and go down to the Journal of College and Character. You'll also see the other 3 journals that are available for NASPA members, the Journal of First Generation Student Success, the Journal of Student Affairs Research and Practice, and the Journal of Women short course that is happening between March 25th April 26th on basic counseling skills. This short course is a primer on the fundamental critical topic of mental health and how to support students on your campus and beyond tailored for non clinical professionals. The program will focus on hands on skills needed for empathetic listening and effective referral making based on NASBA's book, Basic Counseling Skills for Higher Education Professionals, topics include anxiety and depression, sexual assault and violence, well-being and burnout, current trends in student mental health, making referrals, student support, and more. You can register for this short course on the NASPO website. This course is set up as 5 60 minute live sessions that'll be held every Wednesday at 1 PM EST. They're scheduled for March 27th, April 3rd, April 10th, April 17th, and April 24th. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:02]: Again, go to the NASPA website and learn more. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, Hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents, association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:25]: Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:30]: Chris, we really appreciate you always updating us on what's going on in and around NASPA. And, Shawntal, that means we have made it to our lightning round of our show. I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. Feeling ready? Shawntal Brown [00:35:44]: I'm ready. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:45]: Alright. Let's roll. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Shawntal Brown [00:35:50]: Because I'm gonna say Texas Hold. I'm gonna be Beyonce. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:52]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Shawntal Brown [00:35:56]: An astronaut. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:56]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Shawntal Brown [00:35:59]: Oh my goodness. I would say doctor Sophia Morin at the University of Oklahoma. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:05]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Shawntal Brown [00:36:08]: Not necessarily within student affairs, but I would say Set Boundaries, Find Peace by Nedra Glover Tawab. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:15]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Shawntal Brown [00:36:18]: Oh, goodness. I watch a lot of true crime, so that's probably what was something I was watching during that time. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:24]: Number 6, the podcast you spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Shawntal Brown [00:36:28]: Oh, that is You Need to Hear This by Metro Global Chihuahua. Wonderful, wonderful podcast. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:33]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? Shawntal Brown [00:36:37]: Oh, goodness. I like to thank my husband, Cody. He's always there listening to me, listening ear. I'll shout it out to my family in Oklahoma and all the folks that I have made friends with and and who have supported me in the state of Texas. There's a lot of people, but I hope they all know who they are. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:54]: Well, it's been wonderful to learn from you today, Shawntal, and to hear your perspective on the evolution of DEI work in these states that are becoming more challenging to deliver that work in on a daily. If anyone would like to find community with you after the show, how can they reach you? Shawntal Brown [00:37:09]: Yes. I'm really active on Twitter. It is @ShawntalBrown, capital s, capital b. You can find me there. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. And then I also have a Instagram, Shawntal_ or Shawntal_brown_22. So happy to connect with folks on all those platforms. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:27]: Thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Shawntal Brown [00:37:29]: Thank you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:33]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:14]: This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by Dr.Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

The annual NASPA conference, a gathering of student affairs professionals, is a platform for networking, learning, and sharing experiences. In a recent episode of the "Student Affairs Voices from the Field" podcast, host Dr. Jill Creighton provides insight into the themes and focus areas of the conference, as well as the importance of engaging in discussions related to navigating uncertainty, care amidst chaos, and inclusion and belonging within the field of student affairs. Opportunities in Uncertainty: The theme of "navigating the opportunities of uncertainty" acknowledges the ever-evolving landscape of higher education. Student affairs professionals often grapple with constant changes, whether it be in policies, technology, or the needs of the student population. Embracing uncertainty can lead to growth, innovation, and adaptability within the field. As Dr. Creighton points out, this theme encourages professionals to find the silver lining in times of ambiguity, recognizing that within uncertainty lies the potential for transformation and positive change. Care in Chaos: The second focus area, "care in chaos," resonates deeply with those working in student affairs, especially during turbulent times. Practicing self-care and extending empathy towards students and colleagues is pivotal in maintaining a healthy and supportive work environment. The theme highlights the significance of prioritizing mental health, fostering resilience, and promoting a culture of care within the student affairs community. Dr. Creighton's emphasis on nurturing individuals amidst chaos underscores the importance of emotional well-being while navigating the complexities of the profession. Justice, Equity, Diversity, Inclusion, and Belonging: The conference's third focus area amplifies the ongoing dialogue surrounding justice, equity, diversity, inclusion, and belonging (JEDIB). Creating inclusive environments where all individuals feel valued and represented is essential in student affairs. Dr. Creighton underscores the importance of actively engaging in conversations about systemic injustices, promoting diversity, and advocating for equity within the field. The theme serves as a reminder of the continuous work required to dismantle barriers and foster environments of genuine belonging for all members of the academic community. Recognition and Appreciation: In addition to discussing the conference themes, Dr. Creighton takes a moment to acknowledge the tremendous contributions of her co-host, Dr. Chris Lewis, who has been awarded the Pillar of the Profession award from NASPA. This recognition not only celebrates Dr. Lewis's leadership and dedication but also underscores the spirit of collaboration and mentorship within the student affairs community. It serves as a reminder of the impact that individuals can make on the profession and the importance of honoring their influence and achievements. Conclusion and Call to Action: The podcast episode concludes with an invitation for attendees to engage with the "Student Affairs Voices from the Field" team during the conference, expressing interest in sharing their voices on the aforementioned focus areas. Dr. Creighton encourages listeners to connect with the show through feedback, topic suggestions, and spreading the word to colleagues. This call to action emphasizes the power of collective participation and dialogue, highlighting the significance of community engagement and knowledge-sharing within the student affairs profession. In summary, the NASPA conference provides an invaluable platform for professionals to delve into critical topics, engage in meaningful discourse, and draw inspiration from each other's experiences. The podcast episode not only sheds light on the conference's themes but also serves as a catalyst for ongoing conversations and collaborative efforts within the vibrant tapestry of student affairs. The "Student Affairs Voices from the Field" podcast exemplifies the commitment to amplifying diverse perspectives and fostering a sense of community within the profession, ultimately contributing to the continuous advancement of student affairs.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of On Transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Hey, essay voices. Dropping in with a quick note to let you know that we will not be releasing a regular episode this week. It is the annual conference and Chris and I are both making our way to Seattle, Washington where we hope to engage with so many of you about the profession, about your thoughts, and about where we are right now. This year's conference has 3 focus areas on which all of the programming submissions were centered. The first is navigating the opportunities of uncertainty. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:50]: The second is care in chaos. And the third is justice, equity, diversity, inclusion, and belonging. Like in years past, Chris and I will be moving about the conference with our portable audio recorders asking you to contribute your voice to this show on those three topic areas. So if you happen to come across one of us, please feel free to approach us and let us know that you would love to share your voice. We would love to feature you. After we've done that, you'll hear from us following the conference with an episode featuring all of your stories. I also wanna take a moment to give a mega huge shout out to Dr. Chris Lewis. He is receiving the Pillar of the Profession award this year from NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:29]: And I just wanna say a personal thank you to Chris for his partnership in creating this podcast and for all of his leadership within the profession. Many of you may not know that Chris actually founded the Student Affairs Partnering with Academic Affairs Knowledge Community, or I think it's SAPA for short. So if that's an area of interest for you, that's also a great area for you to connect with us on. So we hope to see so many of you in Seattle. Have a very safe journey and we will be back with regular episodes next week. This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:15]: If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5-star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:53]: Catch you next time.

Transitioning Toward Inclusivity and Excellence in Student Affairs Student affairs professionals are essential to the fabric of higher education, guiding students through their transformational college journey while grappling with their own career advances. Dr. Anna Gonzalez, NASPA's incoming board chair, brings her extensive experience in higher education to the forefront in a recent episode of the Student Affairs Voices from the Field podcast. As a first-generation college student and Filipino immigrant, she not only shares the lessons of her personal history but also sets the stage for the future of student affairs. Embracing Identity and Leading with Inclusion A journey marked by immigration at a young age, the pursuit of education, and ultimately, a leadership role in NASPA, Dr. Gonzalez's story is one of overcoming barriers and bringing true diversity to student affairs. Her advocacy for first-generation students, her stride in higher education policy, and her commitment to fostering diversity enrich the conversation around transitions within the student affairs profession. Pioneering Change Amidst Global Challenges In these times of global connectivity and unforeseen challenges, such as the COVID-19 pandemic, Dr. Gonzalez's experience transitioning to a significant role at WashU and her decision to accept the position as NASPA chair are testaments to adaptability and resilience. The interview, spanning two continents, showcases the transformative power of leaders who embrace change and prioritize the well-being of their colleagues and students. Fostering Well-Being and Job Satisfaction in Student Affairs The podcast delves into the crucial role of mid-level professionals in student affairs and the specific, intentional support they require. Dr. Creighton and Dr. Gonzalez emphasize the importance of strong supervision and staff recognition, addressing job satisfaction, workforce diversity, and benefits to cultivate healthy work-life balance. The ongoing dialogue underscores the necessity of redefining expectations for salaried employees in higher education and promoting a culture that appreciates the indispensable contributions of student affairs professionals. The Path Forward: Advocacy and Policy in Higher Education The episode not only celebrates the trajectory of Dr. Gonzalez but also presents crucial touchpoints for the future of student affairs, including advocacy in higher education policy. It illuminates the structural changes needed to recognize the value of student affairs and its impact on students and the civic health of society at large. Dr. Gonzalez's presidency promises to bring these concerns to the forefront, ensuring that higher education remains a pillar of opportunity and empowerment for all students. Conclusion: A Call to Action for Student Affairs Professionals Dr. Anna Gonzalez's reflections offer a beacon of inspiration and a call to action for student affairs professionals to advocate for change, recognize their value, and create inclusive environments for learning and growth. Her leadership in NASPA champions these principles, urging educators and policymakers alike to consider the significant influence they have in shaping the future of higher education. Listening to the SA Voices from the Field podcast offers an enriching perspective on the multifaceted roles of student affairs professionals. To capture the full essence of Dr. Gonzalez's insights and guidance, tune in to the podcast and join in the conversation around student affairs transformation.     TRANSCRIPTS Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Welcome back to essay voices from the field where today we are thrilled to welcome NASPA's incoming board chair, doctor Ana Gonzalez. Doctor Gonzalez leads successful student affairs operations with a particular commitment to fostering diversity and inclusion in all aspects of student life. With 30 years of experience in higher education, she previously held positions at the University of California Irvine, the University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign, and at Lewis and Clark College where she was a founding faculty member and program director for the master's program in student affairs administration in the Graduate School of Counseling and Education. Doctor Gonzalez most recently came from Harvey Mudd College, an institution within the Claremont Colleges consortium where she served as the vice president for student affairs as well as the program director and faculty member at the Claremont Graduate University. Her research interests are focused on first generation students, immigrant students, equity and diversity, higher education policy and governance, student affairs administration, and higher education finance. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:23]: A 1st generation college student who immigrated to the US at the age of 10, doctor G graduated from Loyola Marymount University with a bachelor's degree in international business. She earned her master's in doctoral degrees, both in education, from Claremont Graduate University. Anna, welcome to SA Voices. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:01:40]: Hi. How are you doing, Jill? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:42]: I'm so glad to be speaking with you. We are spread wide apart on the globe today with you calling in from Hawaii, and I am currently sitting in Paris, France. So we appreciate the accommodation of the time zone action. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:01:54]: This is fantastic. This is how our world is now, actually. We are global at all kinds of time zones, so it's fantastic. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:02]: And I think fairly representative of how NASPA's growing too anyway. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:02:06]: I definitely believe so. I think so. We'll definitely see it at the conference too. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:09]: Well, we've made a tradition out of interviewing the incoming NASPA board chair since Chris and I started collaborating on the show. So I believe you are the 5th board chair that we've had the pleasure of having on the show to talk about your transition, but this is the 1st time that our season has been themed to transitions while the board chair transition was happening. So we're we're right on point today. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:02:33]: That's great. And I love the theme. I think that's perfect in terms of my life and my career, so I love it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:39]: We've had probably the most outpouring of support for this particular theme. It's the 1st time we're ever doing a double season on the theme because so many people relate to the stories of transition that we've been sharing. And so I'm hoping yours will also be one that people can relate to today. We always like to start kind of with a big open question, though, which is, how did you get to your current seat? And that could be either as board chair or at WashU or both and or anywhere else in between. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:03:06]: Well, I'll talk a little bit. I think about the WashU transition, and then I'll actually go into my job I mean, my NASPA chairmanship. The WASHI transition was something that happened. I was not looking for a change. I was at Harvey Mudd, small college, university, about 900 students in Southern California where I'm from, and I graduated from the Claremont Colleges. And so I thought I would stay there forever. The pandemic happened, which was a big transition for all of us globally, and I was, one of the people in charge of transitioning through the pandemic and afterwards. And I think that really gave me pause and thought of as the as I learned about the position at WashU, am I ready to go back to an in person with in a small school, which I loved, or am I ready to think about a bigger challenge in terms of the number of students in the middle of the country where there were so many things happening where the issue of my vote would matter. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:04:08]: My my vote would matter in California, but I think my vote would matter more in the middle of the country at a place like Missouri. And I decided that I was ready for another transition. I survived. At times, I even weirdly thrived during the pandemic, and so I thought I had one more big oomph to give back to the higher education community as well as my own passions for being engaged in communities outside of higher ed, some were different, and so I decided to take the plunge and transition to WashU. My transition to NASH was so fascinating. I've been into organization active since, I think, 1994 when I was a new professional. Never thought I would be the NASPA chair. A lot of people say that. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:04:51]: I never thought that. I never thought that's gonna be me, in large part because the people who I saw who were chairs didn't look like me. I think they were almost all male at that time and white. And so that just was this didn't seem like a place for me. I also worked at a cross cultural center. So I was in multicultural affairs. Loved, loved, loved it and, again, never saw people like me in those roles. And then people like Lori White, Doris Ching, and others started taking on this role of leading our wonderful organization. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:05:23]: And that's when I thought, oh, it can happen. It can happen to someone with similar experiences like me. And over time, I decided to, I was nominated for different, leadership roles at NASPA. I also volunteered for others and eventually transitioned to this role. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:39]: Would you mind sharing some of your identities since this is an audio only podcast? And you mentioned not being able to see yourself represented, it'd be great if you'd be willing to share who you are in that space. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:05:49]: Oh, thanks so much, Jill. Yes. I'm born in the Philippines, so Filipino by birth. I always tell people culturally, my family, just the way we grew up, was so much connected with both Filipino, East Asian, and actually Chicano identities, being where I was in Southern she, her. Grew up as 1st gen limited income and went through college, really. 1st gen limited income through all that went to a significant part. And then I immigrated, so an immigrant to the United States as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:30]: That's a lot of transitions. How have your transitions of identity being in your country of birth for a little while and then coming to the United States at kind of a younger age, how has that experience and that transition impacted your worldview on higher education? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:06:46]: I first came to the United States, I told people and, oh, actually, we were at that time, I guess, we were undocumented too and didn't really have an understanding of that. Right? So as a child coming to United States, they didn't wanna tell people why we were coming. Right? That was a whole danger to that. So there had to be lots of secrecy. And so we literally were told we're just gonna go on this trip or a vacation to see the rest of our family again and be reunited with my parents. And so we went on a plane, came as immigrants, as young children, 10 and 6, my brother and I, and didn't really know. We were made to feel safe by our immediate family. We all lived together, my uncles and aunts. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:07:23]: I think it was 17 people in a 3 bedroom house for a while even when we first came. Yeah. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:29]: That's crowded. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:07:30]: It was kinda crowded, but, you know, it was kind of a big summer party. Right? But, yes, it was crowded. I think the adults probably felt it more than the children. And so it was wonderful to grow up with cousins and my grandmother, in particular, who really took care of us, and she made such a significant impact in my life. And so went through that, and I remember not knowing. But I remember my aunts and, like, would always say, don't tell people about how you came here. Like, you just came, and we never talked about paper or being legal. It was when I first wanted to work that they said you can't get a job when I was in in my teens. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:08:02]: Other people could start working, and they couldn't get a permit. And I remember oh my gosh. And then there was the amnesty that both Republicans and Democrats came together back in the day in 19 eighties, and they actually passed an amnesty for people like me who were in the country for a significant period of time, who were able to get to that whole transition of all of a sudden ruining the shadows to, I have my paper. And what did that green that that green card mean was hugely significant and transformative for my family, but we were doing the same things. We were obeying the laws. We were working. Everyone was working. Right? Paying taxes, actually. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:08:38]: Right? Some of them were working in offices. And then all of a sudden, you get this green card and you get this sense of relief. But, really, I thought that was just the weirdest thing. At at 15 and 16, I remember thinking, this is weird, that that somehow that 1 piece of paper by 1 act would change our whole life when we were living and doing the same things. I Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:58]: think that's such an important story within student affairs because we talk so much about supporting our students through their journey for documentation or journey for, you know, financial aid that those stories are also amongst us in the profession. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:09:19]: Yeah. And I didn't really know how to talk about it. I actually learned a lot from students and staff who I work with who are undocumented and or who are DACA, and they're so brave. And I remember that they talk about it. They advocate for rights, and I just honor that. I honor their experiences. It it's similar to mine, but I didn't know how to voice it or talk about it until I listened to their stories. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:43]: Did you move towards citizenship after your green card? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:09:45]: Yes. That took a while because I actually wasn't sure. So that one, my family let us make the choice, which I love my dad and my mom, and I I love my family for allowing us as children. Right? We were still under 18 to make that choice for ourselves. But so I didn't become a citizen until after I could vote until, gosh, I was already a full time staff member. I really had to think about it and what that would mean for me. And finally, it was about voting, and I wanted to vote. It was important, and it was actually at a time when a lot of propositions in California were trying to take away rights, like affirmative action, like services to undocumented peoples, and even really immigrants in California that was happening. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:10:25]: And so I thought, you know what? I need to become a citizen so I can vote. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:29]: Tell us about that transition from being a green cardholder to being able to have that right to vote. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:10:34]: Oh my gosh. You know, the privilege that you get as a citizen of the United States, the the privilege to vote, it is a right and a privilege, I have to say, but also like traveling. Many places that I could go to I remember I worked for a semester at sea. I took 4 voyages, a semester at sea, and some people had to get visas and other things. And I was like, oh, there's all these countries where if you're a US citizen, you don't have to do any of that. I'm like, oh my gosh. What's that mean? Or being asked questions showing documentation. I could say, yes, I was not born in the United States, but I could show them my passport, and it was like a big easy check. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:11:06]: And so there was definitely a lot of privilege that I felt that I never take for granted because I used to not have that. And so I always honor that, and I I try to be a good citizen, I think. So Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:18]: I think as American citizens, we often don't have the awareness that, you know, we hold I think it's right now the 7th most powerful passport in the world. There are quite a few ahead now, but that has to do with, you know, being able to enter other nations without applying for a visa or paying for a visa or simply just being allowed access instead of being denied think, puts us in an interesting position. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:11:46]: Yes. It does. It really does. And I'm not sure we talk about this as much as we should in terms of even in higher education or in other places that we should talk about. Is what does that mean for us, the great responsibility that we should think about having the citizenship. There's the privilege, but also this great responsibility that we need to, like, discuss and really engage in and own, and we need to own it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:09]: Let's talk more about responsibility, which is your NASPA board chairship. Every time we've had on a NASPA board chair, the one big theme that I can draw a line through each of you is that you're really occupying a space of stewardship for the organization rather than driving a personal agenda forward. And I think that's a big shift that happened when NASA shifted from electing a president to electing a board chair. But I'm wondering if you can talk about what you're hoping, the board you will lead will be able to achieve across the next year. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:12:40]: I think that's a great question. I've been thinking a lot. You know, when I ran from NASPA board chair for the listeners, I'll remind them that I ran on 3 things. I still am thinking about that. But the first is, and it is not in any order, healthy excellence. That means in terms of, like, what does well-being look like for our profession and not just the students. Right? We love the students, but this one is more us. This is more us as practitioners. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:13:03]: It's time for us to think about how do we thrive in our roles, which I love, given all my work life in NASPA in term and student affairs, right, in terms of this is my profession, has always just been. I chose to be in it. But how do we thrive and be healthy, and how do we think of well-being when we have events that we go to? I mean, when you go to a national conference, it's like, oh, yay. 6 AM till, like, 2 AM. Right? Some people go that route. That is not healthy. You know? And and what does that mean? What does that look like? So even things like that. I really want us to engage in our work, in what we do, both the organization and our profession. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:13:40]: I think the second one is of the mid level. That is our largest as a constituent single constituent. It is the largest membership of our organization. And what does a mid level mean? What competencies? And to break that group down further, right, into, like a mid level could be someone 7 years and someone, like, 28 years in the profession. And I think that's a huge, big gap. And so what does that look like, and how do we both break that down a little bit, and how do we honor the mid level. Right? People are wanna sometimes they're like, I'm happy where I'm at, but I wanna gain different skills. I wanna continue having an amazing life in the work that I do, but what does that mean? But some people in the mid level wanna be like, I wanna become a vice president or I wanna become president. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:14:24]: Right? And what does that mean? Mid level also for me transitions. Do I stay in the field? Do I leave the field? Right? I think that's where we really have to engage our folks. So mid level for me is huge. And then the 3rd piece is and it's so important now is why higher education. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:38]: Yeah. That's a big one for the US. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:14:40]: It is. And the impact of higher education, the impact of student affairs in the purpose of students' lives, in young people's lives, and in countries in the civic health of our nation? And I think the answer is higher education. And I think student affairs is actually the the big the change agent and the why of higher ed. I think it's what we do and what we, as professionals, teach our students. And so those are my big three for NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:08]: Let's touch back on that midlevel piece because I think a lot about to the transitions that can feel very, very large in the midlevel from assistant director to associate director to director to perhaps senior executive director. Each of those levels within the midlevel carry their own transitions, their own responsibility differences, and their own growth. So we I think we tend to look at the mid level as a little bit of a bigger monolith than perhaps it actually is within student affairs. I think it's probably you know, there's smaller pieces within it. But what are you hoping for those mid level professionals Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:15:49]: chunk, but we just call them 1 big, big level. Like, the mid level institute. Okay. That gives literally anyone. I mean, what does that actually mean? And so you I wanna make sure that we'd look at the breakdown of what what that is. And what does that mean for NASPA? I think it's being more intentional, not looking at the size of an event, but saying, you know what? We're gonna have mid level based on up to 10 years of experience, and that's gonna be a smaller group, and that's okay. Right? And we're going to look at the competencies that you need based on that versus, like, the competencies that you need. If you were a director executive director mid level, but only with with 12 years experience, but that's completely different than the previous group. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:16:32]: So it's gonna have to it's gonna have to be that our association, our board, our regions, and even our divisions have to look critically at what we're doing for the mid level because we have lumped them too big, I think. And so it's just like, oh, the mid level. And that's, like, kinda the catchall. It shouldn't be the catchall. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:48]: And some of our mid level professionals don't supervise other professionals but supervise students. Some of our mid level professionals supervise large teams, which can include professionals, graduate students, and undergraduate students. It's it's a wide band. And I think my one major complaint with our development as professionals really throughout my entire career is that there's really a lack of education on how to be a strong supervisor. And if you wanna go find that work, you really have to seek it for yourself, and I'd really love to see us develop more of that for our professionals anyway. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:17:21]: I agree. That's great. See, me too. I'm excited. Gonna jump on the bandwagon. Let let's do this. I Let's go. Let's go. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:17:27]: Let's go. I love it. I think it's if I could really leave anything the mid level is the big question, and I just wanna make sure. I walk around NASPA, and I'm like, you're a mid level. You're a mid level. You're a mid level. And what does that mean? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:41]: Yeah. Absolutely. You also mentioned health and well-being as a priority, for our profession. I think that I've been seeing a real slide in terms of balance or integration with work life as of late. We did okay for some, but not for others in the pandemic. And now that we're coming out the other side, it feels like budgets are, you know, constantly being squeezed. People are being asked to do more with less or more people to jobs for the same amount of pay. So how are you hoping to promote that well-being knowing that there's a there you know, let's name it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:15]: There's been of a bit of a morale hit to the profession as of late. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:18:19]: Yes. No. I agree. It's I think it was already happening definitely before the pandemic. I think it got exacerbated during the pandemic, and it's still here. I told someone, it's not necessarily the money that you throw at people in terms of making them satisfied at their position. The way that things are, I I get it. If you're an entry level, it's not you're not gonna get 6 figures your 1st year. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:18:42]: I mean, that's not and even for many, it's not gonna be that way necessarily for for a while. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:47]: Or possibly ever in this profession. Yeah. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:18:49]: Right. Or possibly ever. Thank you. Like, thanks for saying that. And at the end of the day, even if that were that's not necessarily the only thing that's gonna give people job satisfaction. It is being noted for the good work that we do. It doesn't help when you turn on the news and the newspapers, and you're, like, working so hard. You're a resident you're a RCD. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:19:13]: You just stayed up all night helping save a student's life. You know you made an impact, and then you turn on the news and you have people say, let's close down colleges and universities. Like, okay. No. Don't do that. Right? They just did something great. That doesn't help either to work in a field where people are saying they don't trust you. So one is, like, how do we honor and celebrate our staff, our our fantastic staff members. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:19:36]: Right? And we have fantastic staff members. I think too is how do we engage it so that the work doesn't become routine? Because there is a boredom factor to it. It's like the same old, same old. I'm not saying necessarily we're gonna make up a new job for someone, but how does it become exciting? How do we make sure that our staff equitably get opportunities to serve, for example, on different committees? So once it you know, so one day, it'll be your turn to serve on a building project. How exciting is that to be the capital projects? Not necessarily just people with titles. There's gonna be opportunities for everyone in different ways. And, also, because one day, they may wanna become director of housing, and you really can't be director of housing without having some kind of capital experience. Or how do we get a staff member to even rotationally supervise other staff? Because we can't make up staff members. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:20:27]: I get it. But instead of them supervising an undergrad, can we say, hey. This year, you're the one that's gonna supervise the graduate students to get more of that experience? Those are the things. And then, also, what kind of benefits, childcare benefits can we give our staff? Tuition benefits. Not every school does tuition benefits. Partner benefits. You know? Kind of we gotta think creatively to get people noted that these are difficult and transformative jobs and that we need to invest in our people. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:55]: Absolutely. I think one of the most radical things that I've seen happen as of late is, you know, the the state of Washington has their overtime laws that have gone into effect, which I'm very, very pro. And those laws, even for salaried employees, have limits on how many hours you can work per month, but it's requiring those institutions to redefine what a salaried employee is expected to do, and I think that's really good for the field. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:21:19]: Yep. I agree. And, also, the other piece, it's on us too. How do we allow ourselves? How do how do I, vice chancellor, like, just tell people it's okay to not check email every day? Sometimes sometimes I I'll talk for myself. I do that. Right? I check it constantly. And one time, I got really sick, and and I did not check it at all because I just couldn't. I couldn't physically check it. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:21:42]: It would not have been good for me to check it. And then it was fine. The job was fine. My students thrived. It was 2 or 3 days of just really barely, like, looking at my email and barely were really not working. And I realized, okay. Wait a second. It's gonna be okay. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:21:56]: So it's also teaching ourselves. Give ourselves grace, and we're not gonna work we're not gonna make ourselves work and think work 20 4/7. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:03]: And that really comes straight from the top. It has to start with your president empowering your vice chancellor, vice president to do that, and your vice chancellor, vice president really saying, hey. This is the culture we're gonna set for the organization. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:22:15]: I love it. Unless there's an absolute emergency, my boss does not send this email. So, like, he came in to WashU, and he talked about how he doesn't expect he's not going himself going to do, like, email past a certain time. Like, I wasn't there when it happened, but people talk about that. And it really shifted something, like, past 5 or 6 or, you know, not on weekends. It's fantastic. And I thought it was really sharing a vulnerability for him to talk about the fact that he has a life, and he has a family, and that's important. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:40]: And now the 3rd priority you mentioned was really anchoring into the value of higher education. And I think one of the most important things that NASPA does is advocacy in Washington, DC. So I'll give a shout out to the public policy division and also Diana Ali, who is the policy person with one of the policy people, anyway, within NASBA as well as Jill Dunlap. And they do some incredible work to track all sorts of state policies that are impacting higher education. We just saw a weird bill in Utah that is kind of mirroring what had been going on in Florida, which is also wild to me because I don't understand how it's not being challenged as a violation of the First Amendment in more intense ways right now, but that's a whole other conversation. But I'm wondering, Anna, how you envision NASPA telling the story of higher education or advocating for the value in your year as board chair. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:23:31]: No. I think that's great. I you know, I think for me, there's several things that we need to do. The importance of the why of college, one of the reasons why I went to college was to help transform my family's future. Right? And, yes, it is about jobs and careers. One of the big reasons that I went to college. I think if I told my dad I was going to go to college, but not really sure what that would mean, he would have been like, wait. We're gonna pulling in all our money to have you go, see how you do so that the rest of your cousins and your brother could go. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:23:57]: And you're not really sure why your our time and our talent and your time and your money is not gonna I'm like, it would have been unfathomable for my family and for my my background. So I think the why is one of them is the kinds of careers and opportunities for people because of their college degree. When you graduate from college versus when you don't, the wealth accumulation over time, the opportunities is greater. I mean, that is one of the things. But it's not about your major in terms of what your career is going to be. It is about the things that student affairs also does. Right? It's not just one thing. It's about the leadership training that we give them, the empathy that we teach them through experiential things, like being a club and organization president is one way. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:24:42]: Communication skills that we teach them. Right? We engage them to think of differences, like what we have at WashU, dialogue across differences. And what does that mean? To dialogue with someone is something that we in student affairs engage and teach them to live with someone from a completely different background and then to be able to share. Sharing is caring. And then to think about your well-being, right, in different ways. The things that we teach in student affairs allows for an individual to go through college and learn those skills and to be an amazing leader outside in the world, to look at their careers in profound ways. Not just, I'm just gonna work and get my pay, but I'm gonna work. I'm gonna transform. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:25:24]: I'm gonna be a leader. I'm gonna be engaged in community. And a lot of that is because of the 4 years or so that we have taught them in colleges, whether it's a 2 year college or a 4 year college or even, you know, doctoral programs. Right? So I think that we hold the key, and we don't talk about, we don't share those stories. I think student affairs, we are so humble, and we make sure that we lift up our students. But in doing so, I think we've forgotten to lift up the profession itself and explain what we do. We need to explain what we do. I don't think that we should celebrate the fact that our own parents don't know what we do. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:26:00]: My parents don't know what I do. Right? Right? And we and we, yeah, and we laugh, and we celebrate it. Like, this is that career, and it's like, no. That's not good. People know what other people do. We should talk about what we do. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:10]: And I think I'd be one of the very first to say that the degree is important, but it doesn't define the future as much as some of the soft skills do. I think I've shared on the show before, but my bachelor's degree is in music performance, and it's not something that I anchor into daily for the skills that I need in my job. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:26:27]: I should have you sing for us, though. Yeah. I'll be sending. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:31]: Well, I'll share kind of a secret. If you look hard enough, you can find me singing on TikTok and YouTube. But you have to look really hard, and it's not under my real name. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:26:41]: It's kinda funny. I mean, I don't really use those 2 apps as much, but okay. What is that? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:47]: What was your bachelor's in honor? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:26:49]: International visits, actually. And I and I'd use those skills that I learned today. I've always used it. I've learned so many things about balance sheets and what matters. And it's funny because when I say that, it's not necessarily that money matters. It's actually what matters in terms of the values that you put into time and treasure. And so that's what I learned. But so I utilize it a lot in my in my daily work, but I'm not in a business career. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:27:15]: Does that if that makes sense? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:17]: Are there any words of wisdom, wishes, or thoughts that you'd like to share with the NASPA membership in general? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:27:24]: Someone I learned this as a faculty member from a participant at the last APIDA Leadership Institute. And I wanna say, I remember this person said, and I wish I would I could know who it is, but I wanna honor the person who who said this. She said someone told her once to fall in love with her staff, and I've been thinking about that a lot. And for me, for my words of wisdom would be fall in love with the field. Remember why you chose it because we chose this field, and fall in love with it. And if you're thinking that, you know, I'm having a really hard time right now. I fell in love with it once, but I'm thinking of a breakup or a break. That's okay. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:28:05]: But then find support and help about that and think through, do you stay with it, which is fine. Do you leave it, which is also fine. But if you're gonna stay with it, learn, and relearn how to fall in love with it. Because for me, that's what helped me thrive every day. For some of us, falling in love with it means really loving our student. But for others, it really is the actual work, itself. And so whatever it is, remember it and fall in love with it again because that's ultimately what's gonna keep you engaged and thriving in this profession. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:37]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:43]: Thanks so much, Joe. Glad to be back in the NASPA world. And this week, I wanna share a few policy updates that we've heard from our policy division at NASPA. Many of you may have heard that president Biden has issued another continuing resolution keeping the government funded through March. And so at this point, Congress has not reached a compromise to formalize a spending bill for the 2023 fiscal year. For the 2023 fiscal year, as funding expired at the end of September, the Department of Education held negotiated rulemaking sessions on federal Title IX program integrity, and institutional quality and trio eligibility in the month of January. During the subcommittee session on program funding funding involving funding connected to student meal plans and including books and supplies costs as a part of tuition and fees. Several members of the trio subcommittee expressed reservations about expanding eligibility for college prep trio programs to undocumented students due to tenuous political climate due to the tenuous political climate. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:58]: NASPA believes that extending trio programs to undocumented students is an important step in setting a federal precedent for equitable college access. The Office of Postsecondary Education is seeking comments from institutions on effective strategies for college student mental health and substance use and substance use disorders. This request includes how higher education institutions have transformed campus cultures with inclusive support strategies, how state agencies have supported behavioral health, identified challenges in implementing solutions, and information to guide future work of the Department of Education. Comments are due by February 25th. The Department of Education has also issued a request for information to assess sexual violence on campus. The RFI seeks responses on best practices for sexual assault prevention and response in education in educational institution in educational institutions. Topics include forming response teams, providing survivor resources, preventing and responding to sexual and dating violence, developing sex education and staff training programs, culturally responsive support approaches, engaging communities in prevention efforts and federal support of these initiatives. Comments are due by March 11th. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:18]: Finally, the Biden administration has highlighted key topical issues in relation to priorities for the 2024 presidential election year. Earlier this month marked the 51st the 51st anniversary of Roe v Wade in and the White House and the White House task force on reproductive health care access released a fact sheet on new actions to increase contraception care coverage. This includes a continued stance that the administration will support the FDA the FDA approval of medication abortion, which is currently which is under current scrutiny by the Supreme Court. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit, where do you wanna give back. Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:46]: I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that, Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association, and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:19]: Chris, we always appreciate you sharing what's going on in and around in NASPA. And, Anna, we have reached our lightning round, so I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. Are you ready to roll? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:30]: I'm ready. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:30]: Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:36]: Beyonce's new song. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:37]: Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:40]: A doctor. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:41]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:43]: Doris Ching. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:45]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:47]: Oh my gosh. It is Elizabeth Witt's The Tapestry, the Culture book that I can't remember the actual title, but love, love, love that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:55]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:58]: Oh my goodness. That is a good one. Is it awful to say Dexter? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:03]: Everyone had their thing. That was a that was a time in our lives. Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:34:11]: I think this one, actually. I did. I'm not a I have to say I'm not a podcast person, but I was like, I'm gonna listen to this one because this is my field. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:19]: We appreciate that. And then finally, number seven, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:34:24]: Oh, just saying hi to personal is my family. Thank you so much for your support. I appreciate you. And then my professional, my chosen NASPA family, you are all amazing. I love you all, and I can't wait to see you at all the future events conferences, including my speech when I take the gavel at NASPA in Seattle. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:42]: Anna, we know you're gonna have an incredibly busy year ahead, but if anyone in the membership would like to reach you personally, how can they find you? Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:34:49]: Oh, sure. They can actually go into my social media, Instagram, AKGonzales 327, and also my email, anna.gonzales, with a z at the end, atwustl, w u s t l, dotedu. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:01]: Anna, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Thank you. This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at essay voices at NASPA .org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:34]: We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support support

In this season of the SA Voices From The Field Podcast, we had the privilege of delving deep into the world of job placement and career development in higher education with D'Najah Thomas, a dynamic figure leading The Placement Exchange (TPE). Her insights reveal a holistic and innovative approach to connecting talent with opportunity in student affairs. Transitions in Student Affairs: A Modern Take It's no secret that the job market in higher education has undergone significant shifts, particularly with the advent of virtual platforms. Thomas brings a refreshing perspective to the conversation, emphasizing the need for psychological safety and well-being during the job search. As TPE adapts to an increasingly digital landscape, it prioritizes mental health by advocating for scheduled breaks and creating virtual lounges for decompression—a much-needed change welcomed by both candidates and employers. The Crafting of TPE's Identity Thomas's journey to the directorship at TPE wasn't a conventional one. With a background in marketing, public relations, and a stint in the non-profit sector, she found herself drawn to the world of student affairs through a combination of chance, economic circumstances, and personal choices—highlighting that a nonlinear career path can lead to fulfilling leadership roles. Her diverse professional experience, enhanced by her empathy and commitment to supporting others, is now channeled into redefining TPE as a central hub for career development. She envisions TPE as a platform that not only facilitates job matching but also serves as a resource for continuous professional growth. Empowering Job Seekers and Recruiters Thomas is keen on equipping job seekers with tools for self-advocacy and proactive searching. TPE's year-round job board and the on-demand TPE Academy sessions affirm her resolve to meet modern job seekers where they are. Similarly, she encourages employers to highlight their values and culture authentically, showing that recruiting in student affairs must evolve beyond mere job advertising to a more strategic and narrative-driven approach. Looking Ahead: A Future of Innovation and Inclusivity  With initiatives like TPE Talks addressing hot topics in employment and the WRAP Session focusing on diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility, TPE is broadening its impact beyond job placement. Thomas reimagines a future where TPE continually adapts to uphold a vibrant, healthy, and diverse workforce in student affairs. Thomas's work with TPE exemplifies strategic transformation driven by understanding and meeting the needs of its community. The focus on accessibility, storytelling, and mental health showcases TPE's commitment to harmonizing candidate and employer expectations within an evolving digital world.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Hey, essay voices. We've got a really awesome episode for you today all about the placement exchange or TPE for short. So I'm pleased to welcome D'Najah Pendergrass Thomas, sheher, who is a practitioner and whose work is centered around organizational behavior with a focus on recruitment, professional development, and career advancement. She's committed to helping organizations and communities bring about transformational change in these areas. And currently, she is serving as the director of the placement exchange, which is also a partnership of AUCHO-I and NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:53]: In this world, Inesha works directly and closely with a planning committee of professionals from across the field of higher education and student affairs to drive equitable and inclusive practice and innovation to deliver transformative networking communities, knowledge resources, job search, and recruiting experiences that cultivate and sustain a diverse and robust workforce in higher education. Before coming to TPE, D'Najah worked for 9 years in residence life and housing. Prior to that, she served as a marketing and communications practitioner in the nonprofit sector with Goodwill Industries of Southern Piedmont, The Florida Bar, and The Florida Psychological Association. D'Najah is past president of North Carolina Housing Officers or NCHO, and she also served in other leadership roles with NCHO and the Southeastern Association of Housing Officers or SEHO. She was a 2018 participant in NASPA's Mid Managers Institute and served as faculty for SEHO's 2021 regional entry institute or RELI. D'Najah also finished her term with a Kujo AI's 2021, 22 Leadership Academy cohort. A native of Charlotte, North Carolina, D'Naisha holds a master's of divinity from Duke Divinity School, a master of science in sport management from Florida State University, and a bachelor of science in public relations from Appalachian State University in Boone, North Carolina. Whether you are a candidate looking for a job this year or thinking about looking for a job this year or an employer who has an entry to mid senior level job to post, this episode, I hope, will be a wonderful resource for you so you can learn a little bit more about how the placement exchange process has grown and changed over time. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:27]: Don't miss this one. Hope you enjoy our conversation. D'Najah, welcome to SA Voices. D'Najah Thomas [00:02:33]: Thank you for having me. I am excited to be here. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:36]: I'm really thrilled to help you have you on the season at this moment in time, especially in our theme of transitions in your role at TPE, I think that you personally hold a lot of keys to success for people in the profession. And especially given the changes that are happening in TPE right now, it's a great time to talk about all of the things. But before we talk about all of the TPE things, I'd love to get to know you a little bit better because you've had some interesting transitions in your career as well from housing professional and, I believe, training as an attorney to the TPE space now. So tell us about you. D'Najah Thomas [00:03:10]: I was an attorney. It's not quite that exciting, but I will tell you a little bit about what I've done before coming to TPE. My background is actually actually in marketing and public relations. So I did undergraduate work in North Carolina with great dreams of working for an NFL team. I thought that I would travel and do on-site communication and public relations. And so that led me to get a master's in sport management at Florida State University down in Tallahassee, Florida. And then that program was my 1st interaction with student athletes. And so while working on my degree, I worked with at risk student athletes in academic services. D'Najah Thomas [00:03:45]: And I had the luxury of graduating in 2008, which if anyone can remember, was the recession. And so I humbly took my brand new master's degree home to North Carolina and started searching for a job. And so I spent a good bit of time volunteering while looking for work simply because my mom, as an educator, was of the background. You get stuck in your own head when you're looking for a job and you can get discouraged. And she suggested that I volunteer. And so I volunteered like it was a full time job and landed in non profit work, particularly crisis support services in North Carolina. And to be transparent, if you live in the South, particularly North Carolina, it is, still called the Bible Belt. It's deeply steep in religion, particularly working in crisis support. D'Najah Thomas [00:04:27]: The questions were typically existential. How did this happen? Why could this happen to me? Oftentimes, how could a god be god allow this to happen to me? And in the course of serving people, I thought I will either get a master's in counseling or maybe a master's in divinity. And I chose the route of divinity school and so I landed at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina. And they mentioned this opportunity to be a graduate hall director while in the program. And so I thought anything that will help me save money on the cost of this degree is going to be a wonderful opportunity. And so I landed in residence life and housing as a grad hall director while working on my master's of divinity. And so during the 3 years that I spent at Duke, I realized that college students were amazing. They are complex. D'Najah Thomas [00:05:09]: They have great demand. They are extremely diverse, and they were very much and are very much looking for a relationship, mentorship, and support. And so as a grad student, I found they liked me a little better than the professional coordinator because grad students are where they wanna be. They're gonna graduate and they wanna get master's and doctoral degrees. And so, residents and RAs alike would just hang out in my apartment. I would host programming for them, all while working on this master's of divinity. And my 3rd year in divinity school, a full time position opened. And I was eligible because I had the previous master's and so I did what I honestly would not recommend to anyone. D'Najah Thomas [00:05:44]: I worked full time on that last year and stayed a full time student because I just didn't wanna pass up the opportunity to be able to get the position at Duke. And so that is how I landed full time in student affairs. I was a resident life coordinator at Duke University. And so stayed in Durham for about 5 years and moved on to Wake Forest as an assistant director, staying in residence life and housing. Had the joy working under doctor Kitty Ryu, who was a great leader and really believed in what we were trying to do in Residence Life and Housing. She's NASPA famous. She is NASPA famous and rightfully so. And so in my the 1st year and a half in my role, we actually did a full reorg in our department. D'Najah Thomas [00:06:21]: We did not have full time residence hall coordinators. And so in the spring of 2019, we fully reorgued, went to TBE in LA, and bought on 7 new full time live in staff members, which was pretty important because halfway through their 1st year the pandemic happened. And we recognized that had we not had full time staff living in, there's just no way we would have survived supporting students, in the ways that we needed to. And so the next part I shared transparently because I think it matters with how I work with PPE and how I approach talking about career trajectory with people. I got pregnant and had a pre work for baby in the middle of the pandemic. And so, residence life and housing was very demanding at that time and work and life just were not meshing. And so, I had to start to look for other opportunities and very regrettably didn't wanna have to leave residence life and housing, but knew, you know, you have to make some life choices. And so the position with CPE opened up and I thought, gosh, this will be a wonderful opportunity to help meet our field at a place that was a point of crisis. D'Najah Thomas [00:07:18]: Right? Trying to retain staff in the middle of the pandemic. Campuses were triaging vacancies everywhere. And it would give me the flexibility to think about what I needed to do to be a mom to a brand new baby. And so I applied, interviewed, and in about 6 weeks found myself in the role as Director of the Placement Exchange. And so I bring to the role a little bit of nonprofit work, a little bit of student athletics work, and a whole lot of housing and residents' life experience coupled with supervision, hiring, and retention. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:45]: That's an incredible journey, and especially to an organization like TPE where you can keep a lot of the skills you learned in your on campus experience by also bringing your nonprofit based experience. And I'm realizing now where I accidentally referenced an attorneyship, and it's because you were working with The Florida Bar as well as Florida Psychological Association. And so with all of those experiences kind of creating a melange of things for you, what is life like now given that you're serving professionals instead of students? D'Najah Thomas [00:08:15]: Life is amazing. Part of my work with TPE has really helped me solidify what I work with candidates around, which is understanding your story, your values, and your overall professional goal. And so when I look back at my career, I think the thread that ties it all together is relationships and investing in the success of others. And so for a while, that was student athletes. Before that, that was in the sports arena, that transition to serving people in the nonprofit world, coming back to my students at Duke, and then becoming a supervisor, particularly being very invested in the career trajectory of those that I supervise. And so, now I find myself with TPE being able to concentrate and be less of a generalist, but to spend so much time thinking about how to support the goals and the career trajectory of both who are doing work that I love so much. And so now my days are are filled with understanding what's coming out of SHRM and coming out of corporate HR and following trends on our campus and in our field and thinking about how TPE can now, in essence, be a career hub for the profession. How can we say to practitioners that this is your career trajectory? PPE is where you can come to develop the skill, review this resource, engage in the support so that you can continue to be a knowledgeable and competent and competitive candidate? And on the other side of that coin is how can we say to employers recruiting, retention, and advancement of staff really is a free market. D'Najah Thomas [00:09:42]: Meaning, they've got a set of skills and a salary they're looking for, and you now have to showcase how you are a place that people want to work at, and that the package you have to to offer is competitive. And so, how do you look at your efforts around recruiting, and interviewing, and hiring, and onboarding, and retaining staff, such that when you sit down with a candidate, you can say, This isn't just any assistant director role. The assistant director role on this campus is going to provide you with these opportunities, support you in this way such that you don't wanna walk away from this opportunity. So that is how everything I do is centered. How do we really equip these practitioners? And then how do we empower employers to see themselves as great places to work and be able to really share that with candidates in the process? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:24]: Now TPE is short for the placement exchange. I think it's its own living acronym. Now people just kinda know what it means if you've been in the field for a hot minute. But it's also a joint partnership of Akuhoai and NASPA and also serves as a hub for professionals who are not affiliated with either of those organizations as people search for student affairs in higher ed positions. What is the experience of a candidate today who's utilizing TPE? D'Najah Thomas [00:10:52]: Sure. I hope that the profession as a whole. It experience even though we are serving the profession as a whole. It has expanded. We now have a job board that is 20 fourseven, three sixty five. So I hope people aren't up in the middle of night. You feel the urge at midnight, you can go to the job board and look for that next job. If you do that on the weekends or whatever that looks like for your schedule, it's available. D'Najah Thomas [00:11:22]: And it's got the features that now allow you to upload your profile and resume at a level of comfort. So it can be fully visible by employers who are looking to hire. It can be one level down, which is what we call confidential, in that they can see the content of your resume, but not your identifying information. But if I were to message you as an employer and you choose to do so, you can then disclose who you are. Or it can be fully private, meaning it's there and as you see an employer that you may have interest in, you can share that resource with them. That's something that has been added on since what we've been known for. The once a year in person week of interviewing that happened the week before NASPA. So I appreciate now that we recognize, right, people are looking for a job 365 days a year. D'Najah Thomas [00:12:02]: We cannot make people wait until March to get their next job. So being able to offer the job board with some customizable options for candidates is something that we're really proud of. The other thing that I'm really proud of for candidates, and I hope they would say they are appreciating, is how we've taken the TPE Academy and really tried to make it more accessible for the year round experience. So it used to be being a part of the academy was from November to March, it was much more like a mentorship experience and culminated being in person. Now we create the sessions on demand and candidates can go to the YouTube channel and access any one of those 6 sessions. Right? So again, at a time that works for you, whether it's October, February, or April, you can have access to those resources in a way that your lifestyle and fits your schedule. So again, just thinking about the things that used to be centered around that once a year experience and expanding those to be accessible anytime a candidate would need that. We still keep our Candidate Development Subcommittee and so we still offer those year round webinars. D'Najah Thomas [00:13:00]: And what I appreciate about those sessions is they don't feel very stiff and structured. The content is there but our presenters and speakers are very engaging and the pace still allows for question and answer, learning opportunities, almost like a workshop. Like, we may pause you and have you do an activity, do some reflection, and engage. And so we are still trying to make sure that we serve on a larger scale to everyone who may need us, but not without having that personal experience and that interpersonal connection that we've been known for. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:30]: So the addition of the psychological safety piece, I think, is incredibly important from a candidate experience, especially knowing that there's a lot of reasons that someone might not be able to share with their current employer that they're looking or maybe they just don't want to. That's also fine. I also really appreciate the expansion of the academy and this on demand element because it really is meeting candidates where they're at in the modern era of search. So for those who are listening who may be newer in the profession, my 1st job experience job hunting experience in student affairs was at TPE in the year that ACPA and NASPA were last combined for a joint conference. That thing was bananas. I think I did 45 to 60 interviews in 3 days. I had a pair of extra tennis shoes in my bag. I had physical thank you notes with me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:21]: There were candidate physical Dropbox mailbox systems that were just organized but chaotic at the same time. And it was also a place where I feel like more of the candidates were like myself in their 1st or second job search, not necessarily in their mid or senior level spaces. And I believe that has shifted quite a lot in the last several years. So who's in the TPE now in terms of the level and type of position that candidates are looking at and employers are hiring for? D'Najah Thomas [00:14:50]: Sure. You know, you shared a memory that just stuck with me. I was not at that particular one, but I remember being in San Antonio. And the way the my my boots. It was huge. And you have the candidate's a through m, n through z, and there were just hundreds and hundreds of people and hundreds of tables. And when we decided to go virtual, what you just shared is what we really listen to from candidates. I had a lot of listening sessions and I listened to people say I had 30, 40 interviews and, I was so stressed that an interview would go terrible and I didn't have time to, like, gather myself. D'Najah Thomas [00:15:31]: And then it was a trickle down effect or I was at a table and I had a hard time focusing because the interview was right next to me or sitting in the waiting room and hearing people talk about their number of interviews and struggling with comparison. And I remember as an employer just reminding candidates, you don't need every job, you just need 1. And I remember pausing interviews and saying, I don't think you have the stamina to show up well, and we reschedule you. And so what I appreciate now about us being virtual is the ways in which we are advocating for protecting the schedule of both candidates and employers. So we do last the full week, but we offer block. Our schedule builds and breaks. It's virtual, so we can't regulate everyone. But we highly recommend that people take the lunch break, take the afternoon break, adhere to the block, pause and go to some of the round tables. D'Najah Thomas [00:16:17]: And right now that we are virtual, you can go into a space. When an interview ends, don't book back to back. Give yourself a chance to go into a space, decompress, review that, drop into the candidate lounge, talk with 1 of the subcommittee members to just kind of help you have a better mental health experience through the process. And we actually do that for employers as well because we have to remember that people are away from their responsibilities on campus while doing these interviews. And I remind employers that they are being interviewed as much as they are interviewing candidates. And so you get distracted, you get fatigued. Some of these things that we are embedding because we are virtual are to help you show up, your best version as an employer, to the candidates who are giving you their time and trying to tell their story to you. And so I really do appreciate that the virtual space is allowing us to prioritize mental health, psychological safety, and well-being of everyone who's currently involved, for sure. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:12]: The experience of the employer shifting as well, I think, is a very big deal because I think, especially as younger professionals, our instinct at the beginning is, you know, my job is to show up and show out, and the employer's job is to judge me. At least that's how I felt in my first TPE. And now it's I think we're trying to do more to push more of a balance that it is a mutual understanding of if this is gonna be the right job match. From the employer side, what else is new or changing for them? D'Najah Thomas [00:17:41]: Sure. From the employer side, a few things are new with the virtual experience. We really did listen to them 2 employers when they said, you know, it may be virtual, but we used to have reception. We wanna build that warm connection. If we can't physically touch or see other same spaces with candidates, how are they going to feel our full spirit, our vibe? We used to have swag. We used to fill mailboxes with all these things. And very lovingly, I said, there are ways that you do this now, but it has to actually be with the meat and the substance of who you are. And so you actually have to help candidates want to work for you because of the substance of what you offer, and you can do that. D'Najah Thomas [00:18:20]: So my coaching conversations with employers now are a lot about, tell me about your team, tell me about your campuses, tell me about the affinity spaces and support that is available to your staff. Talk to me about your professional development opportunities. Because this generation of candidates is very interested clear pathways to advancement? What is their supervision and leadership going to be like? And so I said employers, your booth, it's the sims. So that part is still fun. Your booth is fully branded. You can hyperlink it to videos. You can show a day in the life of. You can showcase your campus and your teams in ways virtually that you actually couldn't do in person. D'Najah Thomas [00:18:58]: You couldn't pick up your campus. Everybody just had the floor extensions with their brand on it. So now with your booth, you can use imagery, but you are linking to all of the resources and information that your campus has to offer in a very nicely branded way. But on top of that, your engagement with candidates is now about who you are, what you believe, what you value, and what the candidate experience will be. And so, in short, I'm finding that we are helping employers learn what it means to recruit, which is something other industries have been doing for some time, but I do think it's very new to student affairs. We knew that people were going to go to the graduate program. They were going to graduate, and they were going to need an entry point. And we just kind of knew that TBE would be that funnel. D'Najah Thomas [00:19:41]: But we know that the pipeline into the profession now looks different. And so virtual really does allow us to still serve that pipeline but also expand. Like your earlier question was, who all the CPE serve now? I am excited to say that we serve the full profession. We really do stop before you kind of get to the executive search firm level. That's not our wheelhouse. But up to director level positions, they are there in terms of employers posting those positions and candidates that are currently in the candidate pool. And I say that very excitedly because we are really carving out supporting those who want to do a nationwide search. There are lots of regional groups and associations that can do in person placement. D'Najah Thomas [00:20:16]: And I think that's wonderful. If you know you're gonna stay in the Northeast or the Southwest, and you can be at your conference and have that interview process, absolutely go for it. But if you know you're in California and you want to look at Illinois and Michigan and Virginia and Texas or a couple of different states and you don't want to break the bank as a candidate or if as an employer you want to cast the largest net as possible and you don't want to have to pick up and take a a team of 6 or 7 or 8 people, the virtual platform allows us to do that for everyone who wants to do it. Being virtual now lets us say that engaging in CPE is free for all candidates. That was a huge one. I just feel like it says something about an industry when you have to pay to get your job. We all want people to have to pay, let alone go into debt or use a credit card to get their next job. And so virtual allowed us to say, if you're looking for a job and you wanna meet some great employers, create a free candidate account, participate in the career fair, let our employers recruit you, and then in a few weeks, come back, have those interviews and hopefully find your next job. D'Najah Thomas [00:21:23]: Same way we say to employers, if you are a community college or a small college a limited budget, you are on the same footing as the flagship institution for whatever state you're in. It's the substance that you have that puts you in front of candidates and allows you to say to them, we have something that you want, and we would love to have you be a part of our team. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:42]: I just wanna reiterate one thing that you said, which is that the placement exchange process as a candidate is free to you to use, which is such a critical point that wasn't always true. I believe I registered for a fee when I originally went through many years ago. It wasn't high if I recall, but, you know, it's still a fee. So I really appreciate that that is a major positive change for candidates. So if you're looking for a position this year, please register with TPE. It's totally free for you. Now if I'm an employer, let's talk about how much it might cost my institution. D'Najah Thomas [00:22:16]: Again, I can say it's probably going to cost you less than you ever remember. Like, full transparency, when I went to LA in 2019, we were in the 1,000 of dollars to have our booth, take our staff, to pack up all the slack, to stay in the hotel. Employer booths are only $475, And that is to keep it comparable with the actual technology that we use for the platform. And so in that employer booth, you can have up to six recruiter seats and each recruiter can run their own schedule. So if anybody remembers CPE in person, it was a table and you often ran 2 interviewers per table. And some employers ran 2 tables. You can do that with 6 recruiters and 1 booth. So you can have up to 6 interviews if they're individuals or 3 interviews if you run them in pairs for 475. D'Najah Thomas [00:23:04]: We are not in the business of trying to to bankrupt anyone. We actually want to make it as accessible as possible for our job seekers and our employers because that is how the field wins. When we can bring the largest pool of talent together and the largest pool of hiring employers together, I believe that both sides will be presented with option and possibility and increase the likelihood that we make really strong career matches across the field. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:30]: I love that. That's amazing. D'Najah Thomas [00:23:31]: It makes me smile. So I'm glad it makes you smile. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:34]: Absolutely. So as we look forward then, there's already been, I believe, at least 1, if not 2, virtual events that have happened this year. There's another couple major ones coming back up, including one that will be concurrent with the NASPA annual conference. So this episode should be airing right before the conference begins. If I haven't registered for TPE yet, but I want to, what do I do now? D'Najah Thomas [00:23:58]: All you have to do is go to our website, which has not changed. We're never gonna change that web address. It is www.theplacementexchange.org. You will see virtual placement highlighted on our web page. Click that live green button, register, and join us. Registration takes about 30 minutes. Setting up your booth only takes 30 minutes. I did it just to be sure I was being truthful when I tell an employer anyone can do it, anyone can do it, and then you have full access to to our registered candidates and the ability to participate in placement. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:30]: You mentioned value congruence as probably one of the number one things that this generation of job seekers needs in their employer. How are you seeing employers demonstrate their values in a way that is really digestible for candidates? D'Najah Thomas [00:24:43]: I think, again, it starts with us introducing career fairs. We really wanted there to be something between I see a job on a site, I do my own kind of investigative research, and I hope they interview. I believe in the power of storytelling and human interaction. And so us since starting the career fair before placement has really been a great place for employers to do that. So there's what I see on your booth in terms of your printed materials about your your campus. I am now clicking to have a conversation with a recruiter and we are really working on helping candidates understand the questions to ask and the follow-up questions to ask. Ask. And so it is developing those conversational skills to engage in active recruiting. D'Najah Thomas [00:25:23]: And so I may say, you know, I read these are the values of your institution. An employer may say, yes. We value creativity, exploration, leadership, and service. Now in our in our recruiting chat, I can say, well, tell me a little more about how the value of service is played out on your campus. Often times employers are gonna talk about the student experience. And I say, as a candidate, when you listen, tell me what it is you're really wanting to hear and how do you have the question to get to that answer. So we kind of walk through scenarios and then the oh, they talked about the student experience. Well, they that sounded wonderful for students. D'Najah Thomas [00:25:56]: Can you tell me a little bit more about how this value, is experienced or plays out for your staff? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:02]: Mhmm. Mhmm. D'Najah Thomas [00:26:03]: So it's just keeping the art of engagement. And we do the same with employers because this is new to engage in recruiting as well. So we talk about when you when you choose recruiters, you want to choose people who, a, understand the values, the mission, the vision of your university, who can talk about their own experience with them to showcase that congruence. And I recommend you collect stories of your colleagues, of your team, of your peers that can validate that or affirm that. I also talk to my employers about transparency to say these things are so aspirational and here's where we are in working towards this. I think this is a wonderful generation of candidates that appreciate the honesty and the transparency. So even if you tell me you're not there yet, if you can tell me how you're working towards it, I'm gonna appreciate that you didn't tell me a lie. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:50]: Yeah. For sure. D'Najah Thomas [00:26:50]: That you have that awareness, and I have an understanding of how you're still trying to get there. And so it's not a ding to you as an employer if you haven't hit everything inspirationally. It's your ability in preparation to talk about how you're working towards it and what you have in place to bridge that gap if you're not there yet. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:08]: Let's talk a little bit about the numbers. How many candidates and employers and jobs are in the TPE portal at any one given time and particularly during high season of hiring? D'Najah Thomas [00:27:19]: Sure. At any given time, we average between two 50 and 375 for jobs monthly. And so I give the average because we have new jobs posted. We offer 30, 60, 90 day postings. So we're in that 2 to 300 range on average per month. We currently have about 380 candidate resumes on the job board. That's the year round component. And we have about 600 employers who are in our system. D'Najah Thomas [00:27:45]: They may not be currently posting at the time, but they have posted in the past calendar year. Those numbers are continuing to grow as we continue to, a, inform people that we have a job work because a lot of people still just know us at the event. So as we continue to tell that story, those numbers increase. I am excited with placement that we are seeing numbers to start to increase to what they used to be. I told you the background in PR and marketing comes in hand. It helps me develop patients. Our field loves the things that have been a part of our journey, And we know that change is a process. And so replacement, our candidate numbers are are very quickly getting to what we are familiar with, closer to 300, 400 candidates. D'Najah Thomas [00:28:22]: Our employers are slow to adopt. And so our hope is as we continue to grow and employers continue to have that positive experience, a, that their testimonial, their validation, and their word-of-mouth will help. We are also marketing though, making sure employers know our candidates are getting it. We're getting up to 300 plus candidates almost to 4. And so right now, we actually are almost a 100 registered employers, which means there's almost a 100 positions. So it's a position per employer that they're being hired for. And they are from early career to senior, mid level, or senior level positions. And so I am just telling employers, you are looking for the candidate. D'Najah Thomas [00:28:56]: I can tell you where they are. They are leaning into technology. They are leaning into equitable access. They are leaning into spaces that fit better with their time and their schedule to look for a job. And so we are pacing it year by year to help employers see that we've heard what they were looking for from the in person experience, and we can't copy and paste, but we can find ways that technology allows us to reach that goal. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:17]: I always say that transition and change always takes at least 3 years in higher education. 1 year to formulate and push the change out, the 2nd year to work out the issues or the kinks with it, and the 3rd year to let it fly and see if it actually works. It's because our profession is so cyclical. The hiring quote unquote season in higher ed really only happens once a year en masse, but it is it is all year round. But you're not gonna see if the impact is is what you're hoping for for a while, and that's just true for anything in higher ed, I think. So I'm hoping that our show and featuring TPE can help others discover you again. D'Najah Thomas [00:29:53]: Well, I appreciate that very much. This role as a former practitioner on the campus has helped me lean into we talk about redefining success. We easily say it, and then you have experiences that require you to live that amount. Up. Rebranding and restructuring CVE has really challenged me, and I've embraced what it means to redefine success. And so right now, redefining success is not the highest registration numbers. It is listening to those who were leaning into this process, say that it worked and they experienced an improved week going through the process in this way, hearing people say, oh, this felt very innovative, or this was engaging, or this was fun. Words that we used to hear from the in person experience to now hear them in the virtual experience lets me know that we're headed in the right direction. D'Najah Thomas [00:30:34]: So I'm very much leaning into the feedback from our participants to make sure that we are hitting the mark with what equals a quality experience for them. And I believe that as more people have the quality experience, the numbers will do what they need to do. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:47]: Well, I think the number one thing that virtual space creates is accessibility. Right? And that's accessibility in a lot of different ways. But when I was, working as an AVPDOS at a large public university, you know, it made the TBE process possible for us because we couldn't afford to send 7, 8, 9 recruiters to the experience. But we could say, okay. Let's pay 1 fee, and we can post our hall director positions. We can post some assistant director positions, and we can try to find our people, this way. So I think that's that's all good stuff. What other transitions and developments have come about for TPE that you want our listeners to know about? D'Najah Thomas [00:31:25]: Sure. I think the the next big piece is what's happening in terms of programming and in the social media space. So we are about placement. We absolutely want people to connect employer to employee and find those jobs and make those hires. But again, as we think about being a career resource, it also means creating space to talk about and address the factors that impact our ability to retain staff and advance staff in the field. And there are some very role factors that we have to think about broadly if we're going to get the talent and keep the talent. And so, a big thing that I'm proud of is called TBE Talks. It's from our 2 planning committee chairs. D'Najah Thomas [00:32:00]: Every last Friday of the month, they get on the TPE Instagram live account and they talk about hot topics. So anything that is making someone think about, I don't wanna do this job anymore or what's driving my search for the next job, they talk about it. And I don't hang out in that space because I really wanted to be a free space for peer to peer conversation and engagement, and those conversations have been wonderful. The 2nd piece that will launch in March that I am extremely excited about is the one that I get to host. They're called TPE WRAP Session. And the sole subject of those conversations is around diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility, and how that is impacting our ability to recruit, retain, and advance practitioners. And so each month, I'll have a guest join me to have that conversation. And so it varies. D'Najah Thomas [00:32:46]: My first guest is going to be someone who was the director of HR and DEI for a West Coast campus. And so for people to be able to hear how campuses are doing this work, get some ideas, ask them questions, and then I'll talk to some practitioners about their journey and their experience in the field. But I really want us to create spaces to just talk about the importance of accessibility, the importance of DEI, and how that's impacting the talent in our field, whether they're staying or going, moving up, or whatever that looks like. I think there's no harm in having a space to really have that niche conversation. So those are 2 big things coming up that I'm really excited about is offering to the field. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:25]: And repeat for us how people can listen into those dialogues? D'Najah Thomas [00:33:29]: Sure. If you want to listen in to TPE Talks, you can go to the TPE Instagram account on Fridays at 2 pm and join them live. If you want to join us for the wrap sessions, they happen the last Thursday of each month. And again, our website is magic. You go to our website and go to events. You'll find the link to join those when we are live on those last Thursdays of the month. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:53]: Any final thoughts on TPE's evolution from you, D'Najah Thomas [00:34:02]: 3rd year in the role, and this is the 3rd iteration of TPE in a virtual space is what you really alluded to. Right? We were really trying to fine tune what it means. And although it's a 3rd iteration, what I would say to the field is it's just an indicator that we're listening and that we are committed to refining it until we create what it is the field needs. And so I am excited for TPE to continue to evolve, to be a career hub for our field because I think that is the way forward for making sure that we can sustain our workforce. And not just have those bodies in seats, but make sure that our workforce is fulfilled and healthy and vibrant and able to have the creativity and the flexibility to do the work that they need to do. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:43]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:50]: Thanks so much, Jill. Glad to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a lot going on in NASPA as we prepare for the 2024 annual conference. One of the things that I wanted to talk about because we're talking about the placement exchange today is that there are opportunities within the placement exchange for your organizations to be able to find those employees that you need. Many of you may either be looking for jobs or may be looking for individuals to fill positions. And TPE, or the Placement Exchange, is the largest career placement resource in student affairs for over the last 15 years. TPE is committed to helping employers and job seekers in our industry find each other and build our community one great job at a time. The methods and practices for job searching and hiring continue to evolve, and TPE is also working, as we've been hearing about, diligently to deliver the best in technology and innovation as well as accessibility, affordability, and dependability when it comes to recruiting and retaining talented professionals in student affairs. I know you've been hearing about it a lot today, but I'm going to plug it again. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:03]: To go to the placementexchange.org to find out more information. Another great opportunity for you to explore is a new partnership that is called the Program Review Collaborative. This was developed in collaboration with organizations such as the Association of Colleges and University Housing Officers International, the Association of College Unions International, NASPA, and the National Intramural Recreational Sports Association. The PRC is a new joint venture aimed at enriching departmental reviews through the guidance of seasoned experts. These associations bring together a wealth of knowledge, resources, and a unified commitment to advancing the work of campus of campus professionals and institutions alike. PRC reviews focus on appraising the strengths and opportunities of a department with particular emphasis on staffing, administrative processes, programmatic offerings, student engagement mechanisms, and collaborative ventures within the broader campus community. Find out more at program reviewcollaborative.org. Finally, thank you to everyone who voted in the annual NASPA leadership elections, which closed on February 8th. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:19]: We are thrilled to announce the following results with each position following the NASPA board of directors for the terms noted. The board chair elect is Michael Christakis, vice president for student affairs at the University of Albany, the region 2 director, Chaunte Hill, vice president for student life athletics and campus services at St. Joseph's University, region four east director, Juan Guardia, assistant vice president for student affairs and dean of students at the University of Cincinnati, and region 5 director, Carnell McDonald Black, vice president for student life at Reed College. Congratulations to all of these new leaders that are going to be leading NASPA into the future. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit, where do you wanna give back. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:40]: Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association, and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:27]: Chris, as always, you just do such a wonderful job with keeping us updated on what's going on in and around NASPA. Thank you for all you do with our NASPA World segment. Denasia, we've reached our lightning round. I have 7 questions for you in 90 seconds. Ready to start the clock? D'Najah Thomas [00:39:43]: I'm ready. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:44]: Alright. Number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? D'Najah Thomas [00:39:49]: It would be Beyonce's I Been On. It's such a fierce song, and it reminds me to know that my track record is pretty good, and I don't need to be nervous about what I'm about to do. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:00]: Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what would did you want to be when you grew up? D'Najah Thomas [00:40:04]: I wanted to be a bank teller because they always handed out lollipops when I went with my parents to the bank. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:10]: Number 3. Who's your most influential professional mentor? D'Najah Thomas [00:40:13]: My most influential professional mentor would be doctor Stephanie Carter Atkins. He is the embodiment of servant leadership, and she taught me extreme patience as a supervisor. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:24]: Number 4. Your essential student affairs or career read. D'Najah Thomas [00:40:27]: Oh, my essential read would be Dare to Lead by Brene Brown. It leads me into some vulnerability that I had to really work through to offer to my staff, but was transformational. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:38]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. D'Najah Thomas [00:40:41]: During the pandemic, there wasn't a lot of TV because there was a kid in the house. But I would say that My Guilty Pleasure was The Real House 5 series. You could pick 1. They were always on A&E. So yeah. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:53]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. D'Najah Thomas [00:40:57]: Harvard Business Review. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:58]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? D'Najah Thomas [00:41:03]: I would love to give a shout out to my partner who is also in higher ed and helps me find a way to navigate both of us reaching the goals that we have. I definitely wanna give a shout out to black women who are doing this work. They are my sisterhood. They are my network, and they are my support. And I am always here for empowering them. And then lastly, I have to give a shout out to my TPE planning committee, both current and past. TPE, when I say we, it's just me. And so without my planning committee, I would not be able to do what I get done. D'Najah Thomas [00:41:32]: They continue to be a dream team, and I love them dearly. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:35]: Denasia, it has been a pleasure to have you on SA Voices and get to know more about how TPE has been changing and evolving to meet the needs of the modern candidate and the modern employer as well. If folks would like to reach you or TPE, how can they find you? D'Najah Thomas [00:41:50]: Sure. If they would like to reach me or TPE, they can come to the TPE website. Again, it's www .theplacementexchange.org. You can click about us and get in touch with myself or our general email account. You can also follow TPE on Instagram, Facebook, or LinkedIn. If you put in the placement exchange on all 3, we will pop up. There's no competitors. You'll definitely land at us, and I do my best to get back to people as quickly as I can. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:17]: Thank you so much for sharing your voice and the new story of TPE with us today. D'Najah Thomas [00:42:22]: Thank you so much for having me. It's been a wonderful conversation. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:28]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at essay voices at NASPA dot org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:09]: This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Embracing change and adaptability has been a focal point in the latest episode of 'Student Affairs Voices From the Field.' Host Dr. Jill Creighton sits down with Dr. Denny Roberts, who has beautifully woven his international experiences into the fabric of student affairs. In this blog, I delve into the highlights of their conversation and explore how Dr. Roberts' insights can inspire and guide student affairs professionals in their practice. Understanding Diversity Beyond Borders One compelling topic from the episode was the discussion around diversity in Qatar versus the U.S. Dr. Roberts and Dr. Creighton highlight that when working internationally, one must redefine what diversity, equity, and inclusion mean within the context of their environment. Dr. Roberts emphasizes the importance of cultural understanding in fostering engagement in highly diverse student populations. This urges professionals to prioritize intentional efforts and practice humility to make substantial connections across varied cultural landscapes. Fostering Multicultural Engagement The challenges that Dr. Roberts faced in Qatar's Education City showcase the complexity of creating universal student experiences without imposing one's cultural norms and expectations. He underscores the necessity of professional development and immersion to truly engage with the local culture. The emphasis is on the importance of educators obtaining a deep understanding of the cultures they serve, which is crucial in respecting the choices and experiences of international students. Transitions, Writing, and Contributions Dr. Roberts' journey through various career and geographic transitions sheds light on his decision to step into consultancy. This choice was driven by a desire to maintain personal freedom and a passion for writing—something he has continued with zeal post-retirement. His contributions in philosophy, history, leadership, and internationalization highlight the valuable interplay between practice experience and scholarly activity in student affairs. Multipotentiality and Identity An intriguing element of Dr. Roberts' narrative is the idea of being a 'multipotentialite.' He describes the traits—idea synthesis, rapid learning, and adaptability—which mirror his approach to student affairs and consultancy. This concept adds another dimension to understanding professional identities within the field and encourages embracing one's diverse skill set. Reverse Culture Shock and Moving Forward Dr. Roberts' return to America after living abroad opened a discussion on reverse culture shock. His advice for professionals seeking international experience is thoughtful and grounded in choosing deep, reflective opportunities over perfunctory resume enhancements. His message: be transformed by your experiences and seek an environment that respects and enhances your growth. Conclusion Dr. Denny Roberts' experiences and insights provide a compelling narrative for those in student affairs. They encourage educators to be adaptable, culturally sensitive, and intentional—a lesson in how one's experiences can shape not just personal growth, but also professional practice in diverse environments. Ultimately, his journey teaches us that transitions can be an avenue for development, inspiring new approaches to leadership and inclusion in the field of student affairs. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This Podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host.  Dennis C. Roberts is an independent consultant, speaker, and author. He last served as Assistant Vice President of Education for Qatar Foundation. During his seven years with QF he worked with Qatari and expatriate colleagues to create the student development and support services for its branch universities at Education City in Doha, Qatar. Prior to working abroad, he was Associate Vice President of Student Affairs at Miami University. He is past president of ACPA-College Student Educators international, and has been a member and presenter at the National Association of Student Personnel Administrators and the International Leadership Association throughout his career. He has authored 6 books and over 50 book chapters and other articles on student affairs, student learning, leadership, and internationalization. Denny, welcome to SA Voices. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:00:25]: Delighted to be with you today, Jill. This is awesome. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:27]: It is such a thrill to be able to speak to you in our theme of transitions this season. You have had quite a few career transitions, both in your identity as a professional, but also in your physical location. And in our preshow chat, I also got to know you and I share a lot of transitions in common, so I'm excited to dig into those. But I always like to get started with a question of how you got to your current seat, and your current seat is consultancy, which I know a lot of student affairs professionals kind of weave in and out of or move through after a VPSA position. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:01:01]: It is kind of an interesting transition because I had done Consulting before, you know, when I was full time employed and that kind of thing. And when I decided that it was time to return to the US from Being located in Qatar, I kinda struggled. Do I wanna continue to work full time and therefore take another job at the US or do I want to do something else? And a variety of circumstances, both personal and professional, caused me to think, you know, I really am kinda tired of going to the office every day and having somebody else tell me to do is. So I thought, maybe I can make this consulting thing work. And I also had just a gob of Ideas in my head. And I've written, you know, quite a bit during my career, but there was just this whole backlog of ideas That came to me from working abroad, and I thought, you know, if I'm tied to go to the office every day, I'm not gonna get these things Done. And what's really been fabulous is my writing has actually accelerated in retirement. I don't know if that will continue or not, but it's been terrific. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:02:04]: And I've had so much fun writing with younger colleagues who have fresh eyes, with international colleagues To have a totally different perspective. And the character of my writing has really, I think, Changed in this post kind of and I like to call it semi retirement because I can't give up. Right? So I really have not adopted an identity of being retired. I'm still very actively involved, so it was a real decision, personal and professional, that I just wanted more freedom. And fortunately enough, I was very blessed with having had a career that gave me enough economic needs to say that I didn't need that monthly salary. And that's a tough decision To make 2 in terms of how much is enough. Anybody that is facing the potential of retirement, you have to kind of gauge, like, what what's What's the lifestyle I wanna have? And I decided that what we had was very much something that would allow us stability, allow us time to do what we want. My wife was retired at that point already as well, and we decided to move to Chicago to be close to our grandkids. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:03:08]: So, that was all a part of the scenario about How I got to the, current semi retirement status that I'm in. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:16]: You've been quite a prolific author and student affairs is with over 60 journal articles and peer reviewed journals. I believe you've either edited or, coedited. Is it 6 books as well? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:03:27]: That's correct. Yeah. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:28]: So with all of that, how has your voice as an author evolved from your very first publication through when you kind of felt like you were churning a burden and now? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:03:37]: When I first Started writing, and I was extremely fortunate to have matured in 2 settings that were very, very influential for me. One was Colorado State University, and the other was University of Maryland. Both of them and I was a 1st generation college student, so I was kind of clueless about what the academic world really was all about But I had some really good coaches in the early days who urged me. They said, If you wanna be in student affairs, you need to also contribute Intellectually, you can't just be a practitioner. So I had role models at both institutions that urged me to start writing. And the early pieces that I did, I mean, one was I got involved in the whole issue about the age change for alcohol On college campuses, and so 18 to 21? Correct. Yeah. And I stood in opposition to that, Which was kind of an unusual position to take at the time. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:04:34]: And so that was kind of an opportunist publication, but not one that is deep in my heart. So After that, I started working more to just write about things that I really cared about, and that I felt like I had really learned something, And then I had something to offer, which is really very different than what a faculty member experiences. And even though I've Taught both at the graduate and undergraduate levels. I was never driven by tenure and promotion to write certain sorts of things That get into the literature in a specific sort of way. So I were really informed by my practice Experiences throughout my life. So, you know, if I was struggling with a particular issue at a certain time, then I tended to use writing as kind of almost my public Journal, this is what I'm thinking. And I don't know frankly, when you write, you never know who's gonna Be touched by an article that you write, and it's kind of a mystery to me in terms of who does read things that I write. But I Have had feedback from some of my articles or chapters that my narrative style speaking from personal experience, That reflection has been helpful for other people, and I think that is a different kind of writing than sometimes you would see in a typical kind of Tenure track publication driven, you know, kind of an environment. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:05:54]: So my publications for the early start was kinda just but then it became much more purposeful and more deeply reflective as I've gone on. And the areas I've published in that I'm most proud of are kind of student affairs, Philosophy and history, leadership, and then internationalization. Those are the 3 areas that I've most enjoyed, and I hope that the contribution I've made there has Made some difference to shed some light on those topics. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:20]: Am I hearing you as maybe an early adopter of autoethnography as a research style? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:06:25]: Probably. And I wasn't even aware That as a style. I had no idea that that's what I was doing, but yeah, that really is kind of where I'm coming from. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:33]: I think my qualitative professor might be mad that I just called it a would want me instead to call it a methodology. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:06:40]: Yeah, exactly. Yep. Yep. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:41]: Well, Denny, you also have had a prolific as a campus based professional and then transitioned off of a campus. So why don't we talk about that? You were at University of Miami. Is that Miami, Florida or Miami of Ohio? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:06:54]: No. It's Miami University of Ohio. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:56]: I apologize to the state of Ohio. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:06:58]: You have to flip The words there. So yeah. But Miami University in Ohio is where I was. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:02]: And you had, what I understand to be a fairly traditional rise in student affairs going from junior roles to mid roles and finally to that VPSA role. What was the state of the field when you determined it was time to go overseas? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:07:14]: Well, the idea of going overseas Cheese was really kind of planted through a previous experience at Miami, and the Miami, and you'll be very interested in this as a person interested To the study abroad, they have a bubble program in Difertaj, Luxembourg. And I heard about their invitation for visiting scholars, which were typically Play usually faculty that would do those roles. Well, I applied for it even though I was an administrator and I got it. And so I got to spend a semester in Luxembourg, and then during that time I taught and mentored students, and then I also wrote Actually, one of my books, which is deeper learning and leadership, which came out in 2007. So I worked very, very hard every week, And I had a Eurail pass, and so if I met my writing objectives, then on Friday morning, I hit Eurail. And I would go someplace. Well, guess how many writing deadlines I missed? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:10]: All of them? None of them. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:08:13]: 0. I missed none of them. So every weekend I went someplace you know so I'd go to paris I'd go to berlin I'd go to fiena I would We'd go all over Europe on my Eurail pass because it didn't cost me a thing. And every place I would go, I would land, and I'd find a cheap place to stay, and I would start walking the city. You know, that's what I would do every weekend. And so that just exploded my idea about what it's like To be in other cultures and to learn from other places and to be respectful and attentive to the differences from myself as an American versus all the other worlds. And that happened in 2005. And then I just kind of ruminated for a while about, well, what was that all about? And Finished the book, got it published, all that kind of thing. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:08:59]: And then Qatar came to me just out of the blue, and I had not applied, but they came to me and invited me to apply For what was a newly created possession, which was the role was to coordinate student services and development activities across the 8 branch Universities that they had then attracted to, the Education City campus in Doha, Qatar. And simultaneous to this, which is just A very, very strange, fortuitous sort of thing is that my daughter, Darby, was graduating from Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, And they invited her to go to their Carnegie Mellon branch program in Qatar. So Darby accepted the position first. They came to me subsequently. My immediate reaction when I was invited was I asked Darby. I said, Darby, this is crazy. I mean, your father's gonna follow you halfway around the world in your 1st job. I mean, Can you deal with this? Would this be okay? And she said, oh, of course, dad. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:10:00]: No problem at all. So I applied and they hired me and then I went over and that was in the fall of two And I went over for what was supposed to have been a 3 year contract, which was then successively extended to 6, And then extended to 7. And then finally, after 7th year, I said, I really need to go back, and I need to be with my family. Unfortunately, my My wife was not able to go over and live with me over there even though she came over on a quarterly basis, and we talked every day. But that's one of the challenges of expat work Yes. That always get to take your family with you, and that's not always convenient. And so you have to kinda figure out how that's gonna work. So that was a huge transition Culturally, professionally, personally, I mean that was the real kind of just crazy paradigm change for me when I went to Qatar. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:52]: So I grew up in the Middle East a little bit. I had my earliest years in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and it's a very different cultural space. I also have spent some time in the UAE and then have good colleagues in the Levant region, as well as, you know, just kind of all around the GCC or the Gulf Coast region. On the show last season, we had a good colleague from Kuwait and then also in the season prior, colleagues from Qatar as well and from Kuwait. And we hear that the the needs of students are just extremely different. For those who are not familiar with Education City. As Denny mentioned, there are more than 8 now branch campuses in Education City in Qatar. I believe it's more than 8 now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:32]: And they have attracted or kind of what I would call joint venture opportunities, really, where students from the local region are coming in earning degrees with university names that a US audience are probably a little more familiar with. But it's not as if you can just transplant all of these Americanized ideals into this environment where the value system is extremely different. So how did you adapt what you knew and what you had been practicing and researching to this environment that you didn't know at all. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:12:02]: The Qatar Education City campus, it does have just 8 universities. And, well, 6 are American universities, one is European, And then there's their homegrown graduate school, which is called Hamid bin Khalifa University. So it's the 8 institutions and they They are not joint degrees. They are in the local environment. What's fascinating about what they've been able to do in Qatar is that the degree requirements Are exactly the same as the home campus. So if you get a degree from Carnegie Mellon in computer science, The curriculum is identical. And if it's Texas A&M engineering curriculum, identical. So and actually, the degree is granted from the home Campus rather than it being there as a local in Qatar, you know, kind of a degree. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:47]: So it looks exactly the same when you're done. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:12:50]: Exactly. And so, You know, part of what the goal was was to replicate the student learning experience between the US Or European, and then the Qatar example. What's interesting about that is that student affairs is very much a part of Most institutional cultures in the US. And for the most part, the colleagues that I worked with in Qatar, particularly those that were Country or were GCC Air World colleagues, they had no idea of what student affairs was about. Even for those that studied in the US, there's a tendency, at least among the colleagues with whom I interacted, there's a tendency for them to Not engage in the same sorts of ways when they're in the US. So I had lots of colleagues that went to US institutions That didn't even know there was such a thing as a student affairs division, and what value did that bring, and that kind of thing. So a major major part of what I Did there was to raise awareness of what student affairs was as a historical and philosophical and research based Commitment. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:13:56]: And that I have to say, worked in some examples, and I'm thrilled that it stuck. In other examples, that never really did take, and I think that that's really something that international student affairs educators have to face. Some of it's gonna stick, Some of it isn't, and some of that is because of the differences in culture. And I'm sure you know from your Riyadh experience and UAE experience, I mean, the background that a student brings to the learning environment very clearly impacts the way that they're going to engage, and that relates to Everything from deference to authority, to gender roles, to freedom of thought and expression. I mean, there's just all sorts of things. And what's really interesting is to try to contextualize the values that student affairs can bring to another culture, But not do it in a way that judges other people's way of being. I learned so much from some of the students, for instance, that came from Pakistan, or from India, or from North African countries, where the environment of their expressing their views And actively engaging would have been politically dangerous. And as educators, even though I value democratic Education and full engagement, I had to understand that I was potentially educating a student with a tool that could be dangerous for them In terms of personal or professional welfare. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:15:30]: It's a really interesting tension, and that doesn't mean abandon the values and the purpose that we have as student affairs educators, but it does mean you need to understand the cultural differences, and you need to respect the choices that students have to make that might be different than what you would find in a US kind of a setting. Did you find that in your in your work in the UAE and Saudi Arabia? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:55]: Well, I was only in the UAE for a hot second, and, it was really as a visitor when I was working for NYU in the past. But I think my most relatable experiences as a CSAO in in China for a couple of years, and that institution had students from 70 countries. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:16:11]: Yeah. Well, we had a 100 in in In Qatar. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:14]: So when you have that level of diversity, it's just very different than what diversity is conceptualized as in the United States. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:16:22]: Correct. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:22]: And then even in my mind, what what the priorities are and diversification are different. And the way that we talk about inclusion and access in the US is actually quite ethnocentric to the US, and I don't think that we acknowledge that all the time. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:16:36]: Amen. Amen. I mean, no, I mean, that's a really distinction, and I think that the focus on diversity, equity, and inclusion is very important to in the US, and translating that in an international All setting is very appropriate. However, the way that you define it and what you understand to be diversity needs To be conceptualized in a different sort of way. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:58]: Well, absolutely. And the campus I was on had about 60% students from China mainland and then 40% students from the rest of the world. And and so when we look at that, it was also all of a sudden your majority identity is not students who come from privileged backgrounds from a majority ethnic white background. It's Han Chinese all of a sudden, and so then the world shifts in terms of what you understand. And so that was just quite a part quite an interesting part of my experience and a huge transition for me in the way I conceptualize things. I'm wondering for you then, Denny, if You could talk about what's the number one thing you found in terms of a universal experience amongst students in a setting that diverse. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:17:39]: Well, Certainly, their interaction with each other was very, very powerful, and this was actually one of the things that I advocated Very, very strongly. Some of the branch programs tended to want to kinda develop their own identity of their own students kinda within the bubble. So The Northwestern students would hang together. The Georgetown students would hang together, etcetera. And that kinda happened naturally because each of them had a separate building. But while I was there, We built a student center that was a shared space, and so the shared space was supposed to bring everybody together and It was just overwhelming. Students just loved it. You know, we had the bowling alley and the sports complex, and we had the Convenience shopping, and we had meeting rooms, we had a theater, we had an art gallery. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:18:29]: I mean, we had all of that that then Brought people together. And we eventually built residence halls as well. And the residence halls again, you know, it was not clustered by your academic experience, but it was mixed up In terms of both your academic experience and your cultural experience. So it was very very clear that our Students there and you would hear different languages, different styles of dress, all of that all the time. And I assume that you've observed the same sort of thing. So diversity of thought and culture and background is ubiquitous. That is the experience. And what's interesting about it Is though and we actually conducted the national survey of student engagement of the students over there to see what the real impact Was and while the opportunity for exposure across culture was clearly there as a Ubiquitous experience, engaging in it was a different matter. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:19:25]: And if you look at US experience too, just that diversity is on the Campus doesn't guarantee that there is multicultural engagement. There has to be intentional effort to make it happen. There has to be willingness. There has to be respect and humility. You have to have all of those things, and that was a startling realization In terms of just because you have students from a 100 countries doesn't mean that you're going to have a multicultural experience. You have to work at it. And this is something that student affairs really is so strong in in comparison to other academic areas and so forth. But again, as we're saying, It can't be replicated right straight from the US. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:20:05]: The principles of it, the philosophy of it, I think can be transferred, but how you do it has to be different. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:11]: One other thing that I always try to conceptualize is how do I help lead a team to create a universal student experience without kind of engaging in colonialism is the best way I can put it. And that's so tough. Right? Because my training, my education, and my experiences are primarily US based. And so as we look at you know, we are privileged people to be able to live and work in another country. We are also being asked to be there because of the knowledge base that we bring and also trying to figure out how to do that in culturally appreciative ways of the environment that we're in. So can you talk about maybe a practice or some sort of departmental shift that you had to make to really engage the cultural elements of where you were compared to what you knew. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:20:56]: I used some of the tools that I had used previously in my career. So particularly because There was really not a base of understanding student affairs from a research and theory and publication point of view. We did a lot of professional development efforts, And we did that actually in concert with some US institutions. We established something that we called the Qatar Foundation, YPI, Young Professionals Institute. And so we hosted institutions like Colorado State, Maryland, San Diego, who would bring their students over, and we would have these 2 week Experiences that were intensive cultural immersion, and then working in teams to bring ideas about Student affairs practice, but then to to recreate it as a cultural context. So we would have half US graduate and young professionals, and half Qatar based or Arab world based people that were interested in the field or employed in the field, and would they would work in teams together on certain kinds of topics. So for instance, one of the topics that was just wonderful to explore was the influence of family. And of course, US students are all talking about, oh, it's Important for you to be independent and autonomous from your families and so forth. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:22:05]: And our local Arab world colleagues and Asian colleagues were saying, no. Not so much. Not so much. And so literally, the US students relearned in very powerful ways. But on the other hand, Our Arab world colleagues, our Asian colleagues also learned the merits of fostering independence and autonomy while doing it in a respectful sort of way of Environments that are very, very family oriented. One of the things that I also did personally was I practiced Very deep humility on a regular basis, humility and curiosity. And I had several cultural informants, who were colleagues who were willing to give me the the straight scoop about how I was coming across. Oh, that's Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:49]: so important. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:22:51]: Oh my gosh. It was incredible. I would not have survived without them. No way. And so I would regularly meet with them and ask them what was Going well. What was not going so well? And they would tell me. And that was difficult at first because not only am I a Privileged white American. I'm also old. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:23:09]: I have white hair. And so in the cultural context, the reverence For somebody of my makeup was very significant and I really had to build trust so that people would tell me the truth. Because when you're in that kind of a position as a privileged white American or really kind of like as any kind of an American or European, you have to understand your Privilege. And if you don't understand your privilege, you're likely to do exactly what you suggested, which you will become a neocolonialist. You will impose your idea on other people whether it fits or not. And man, I just I learned so much from that. And I learned a term recently Lee, that I I think is kind of a really fun term. Have you ever heard of the term multi potentialite? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:52]: No. That's new for me. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:23:53]: It's actually TED Talks by Emily Wapnick. And when I listened to it, I kind of went like bingo. And all my career life, I've had wonderful jobs, and I've had a lot of fun, and I've had some Pushback in terms of I sometimes kind of have a different way of seeing things. Well, this multipotentialite thing has a lot to do with it. And the 3 characteristics that she identified are that they tend to be, very good at idea synthesis. They secondly are rapid learners, so they catch on quickly, and they they go for it while sometimes other people are kind of dragging their feet. And then thirdly, they're very adapt Across environments. And those things, I think, really, really helped me in the Qatar example. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:24:34]: And I think it also relates to just My identity as an artist because, you know, I have an undergraduate degree in music, and musicians are always looking for relationships, and harmony, and sequence, And patterns, that's who musicians or artists are. And I think I actually express that in my work in Some pretty interesting ways. And I'm saying this because I think some of us that may look a little different or think a little bit differently than colleagues around us sometimes End up feeling as if that were not appreciated or were not affirmed. And I think it's really important to kinda look at your own gifts and try to figure out how that they fit With any particular work environment or any particular calling that you may want to consider. And that has a whole lot to do with this whole transitions theme of Knowing yourself well enough to know your strengths and weaknesses, and then identifying opportunities where your best gifts are gonna meet the The needs of a particular environment, and you're gonna be able to be effective in that other setting. And for the most part, I've been lucky. I had a lot of good lands, Couple, that's so good, but that's kinda the luck of the draw with some of that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:43]: Let's talk about the transition of reverse culture shock. That's a rough one, and reverse culture shock, meaning you decided to return to the US to settle into semi retirement. You've been living in a different cultural context for 7 years at that point, but coming back to a context that you're supposed to know and understand well, but maybe may not make as much sense to you in some ways anymore or may make more sense to you in some ways. So what was that experience like? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:26:09]: Yeah. Well, the first thing that I noticed was that People didn't really care. And that was frustrating because I learned so much from the work abroad experience I wanted to share. And so on numerous opportunities, I waxed eloquently about my work abroad experience, and eventually, I started noticing the glazed eyes And the fact that people just weren't interested. And that was disappointing to me as a reverse culture shock issue. I thought That my American colleagues around here would welcome that more. So I became more selective in terms of how I offered my point of view. And lots of people that I interact Now I have no clue that I've worked abroad and what my experience has been, and that's totally okay. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:26:53]: But I I had an urgency of wanting to share it. I think probably came from just Self processing. So it was self processing publicly by talking to other people about it. So that definitely was something. Our choice of coming back To a setting that was more inclusive and had more diversity in, and it was also very purposeful. I was still working in Qatar in 2012 when we actually purchased our home and my wife moved to Chicago. And we moved from Oxford, Ohio. And, Oxford, Ohio is a Small town, kind of a bubble kind of setting in itself, not a lot of diversity. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:27:27]: I knew full well there was no way that after working abroad, working with diverse colleagues, Working with diverse students, then I would be able to come back and and really enjoy a setting that was more homogeneous. So Chicago worked really well for us. We live in a very diverse neighborhood. Lots of internationals or expatriated people live in our neighborhood. Lots of cultural Diversity, socioeconomic diversity. I mean, I live in Wilmette, Illinois, and for those who have stereotypes about Wilmette, park them someplace Because, yes, there is the the North Shore Sheridan Road version of Wilmette, and then there's the version that I live in. And the version I live in is actually very diverse and very, very interesting. So the choice of where to come back as an expatriate, I think, is very important. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:28:12]: And that both relates To if you come back to work someplace, as well as to come back to live someplace. I think you don't just come back and replug in to the old way of being Because the old way of being is gone. It just doesn't exist, and you're not comfortable there anymore. So I was transformed by my experience and very much sought Diverse experience, diverse exposure, and then dialing it down in terms of sharing my international wisdom. I share that in my writing. I don't share it in my personal interaction with people. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:45]: Yes. And now you're sharing it on our show, which we're very grateful for. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:28:48]: So, I mean, that was so powerful. It was, really wonderful. And for people that might want to consider international experience, it is a transition out and then back. And you can look at Transition experiences that you've had in other work or personal circumstances to look at the kind of strengths and challenges that you faced, And then figure out how to navigate in ways that that do not violate your values. And that's a really important part of this too is understanding your values well enough to know where Where do you have some flexibility versus where can you adapt and do it in ways that are gonna be both to your benefit and the benefit of others? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:25]: What advice do you have for US based student affairs pros who might be looking for jobs in Education City or really anywhere outside of the US? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:29:34]: They're kind of idiosyncratic in terms of the selection processes are not as transparent as they are in most US settings. And so at least in my experience, I don't know how this compares with yours, but it's not unusual at all for Referrals to be made on a personal basis rather than for there to be a an application process that you throw your vita or resume into the pile and it gets sorted out. So taking on experiences that allow you to tiptoe into it helps. I mean, my Luxembourg experience clearly Was tiptoeing into international work, so it was a temporary period. It was like a, you know, faculty study abroad program is basically what it was, and I think one of the things that I worry about a little bit is that sometimes I think people think that excuse me for being negative about this, But I've seen some study tours quote that are more what I would call ecotourism. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:29]: Academic tourism. Don't even get me started. It's a whole thing. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:30:32]: Okay. Well, you know exactly what I'm talking about. And that's not enough. If you're gonna choose an experience to Travel abroad, and you want to do it in a professional developing sort of way, then choose something that is a deep dive in terms of culture, requires lots of preparation in advance, requires lots of reflection during and after the process. Don't just go there to be able to notch it on your resume, travel to x number of countries. That just doesn't work, at least for me. And I I don't mean to be critical because I know all of these are steps toward being more internationally aware. But if you're in a student affairs position, you Kinda wanna consider this internationalization thing, then do it deeply. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:31:14]: You know, find a program that really is gonna give you a deep dive and really engage you in ways that helps you to teach Humility and curiosity. So that would be my advice. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:23]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:29]: Thanks, Jill. So great to be back in the NASPA world. Really excited to be able to talk to you about the amazing things that are happening within our association. The 2024 NASPA Student Affairs Fundraising Conference is coming up July 29th to July 31st in Louisville, Kentucky. The purpose of the NASPA Student Affairs Fundraising Conference is to share and exchange strategies, ideas, and resources, And to discuss issues related to student affairs fundraising and external relations. The conference promotes an exchange of best practices, And it is designed for professionals who currently have development responsibilities specifically in student affairs And for professionals with backgrounds and experience in either student affairs or development. The call for programs for this conference is Currently open until February 26, 2024. And if you have an interest in presenting at the conference, I encourage you to submit before the deadline To be able to be considered to share with amazing professionals that are all there interested in the same thing. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:38]: At the same time, we are also looking for reviewers for sessions that are submitted, and reviewer applications are also due by February 26th. Information on both of these opportunities can be found on the NASPA website. If you go to the event itself and click on it, You'll find out more information. Help ensure that eligible students are registered, educated about elections, and turn out to exercise their right to vote by considering to engage with the voter friendly campus program. This is a free initiative that's been growing since its inception in 2016 in partnership with the Campus Vote Project. You can find out more at campus vote Project .org. I know in the past I've talked about the Leadership Exchange as a great piece of professional development. This is a magazine that's sent out by NASPA every quarter to be able to allow for our vice presidents for student affairs to think about Topics that are pertinent to the day to day activities that they are dealing with, but that doesn't mean that if you're not a vice president for student affairs that you will not learn so much by reading the articles that are submitted. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:47]: One such article that I would highly recommend is called budget reduction 101, And it was written by incoming chair of the NASPA board, Anna Gonzalez and Christine Livingston. The great thing about this is that it is giving frontline perspectives on making effective cost cutting decisions and really gets into the mind of the chief student affairs officers on things that they can do to be able to cut costs and to manage Their divisions in an effective way. As I said, you don't have to be a vice president for student affairs to better understand this topic, but you will learn so much From reading this and getting into the mind of vice presidents within our association. If you have an interest in learning more about budget reduction or other topics, I encourage you to go to the NASPA website under publications and go to leadership exchange, and you'll be able to access the winter 2024 issue that does have This specific article in it or many of the other issues that have come in the past that I think that you will find to be Very eye opening. I know I've mentioned this before, but there are some amazing keynote speakers that are going to be at the 2024 NASPA virtual conference That is available April 2nd through 5th, and it's something that you and colleagues on your own campuses can definitely take advantage of Whether you're going to the national conference or not. A few of the keynote speakers that are going to be highlighted That are going to be speaking at the conference itself includes Josie Elquist, who's a higher education digital educator leader and author, Shawna Patterson Stevens. Doctor Shawna Patterson Stevens, vice president for inclusive excellence and belonging At at Central Michigan University and also doctor Kevin Kruger, president of NASPA will be speaking at the virtual conference. This among many great concurrent sessions that are available are going to allow for you and your colleagues to leave the days with So much great professional development and opportunities to be able to learn right from home or right from campus. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:57]: If you wanna find out more about the virtual conference, go to learning .naspa.org Forward slash v c dash sessions. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways Because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be Getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, It's important to be able to identify for yourself. Where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might Encourage you might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways That allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, Your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:22]: Because through doing that, All of us are stronger, and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:34]: Thank you, Chris, for giving us the latest scoop on what's going on in and around NASPA. And, Denny, we have reached our lightning round. I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. You ready to go? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:37:46]: I sure am. Yep. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:47]: Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:37:52]: Well, I'm a classical musician trained person. It would be, The last movement of Mahler's 8th symphony. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:02]: That'll be a very dramatic entrance. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:38:03]: Very dramatic. Very dramatic. Yep. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:05]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:38:09]: Oh, I wanted to be a concert pianist. That was my whole vision of myself as a Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:13]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:38:17]: Wow. This one is tough. I kinda thought about this a little bit this morning because I've had some great Mentors, I have to admit most of them have been women, and one person who is a colleague and mentor is Susan Komovaz. She's a delightful human being, and we Change a lot. Barbara Kellerman in the leadership studies world is somebody that I really respect. Esther Lloyd Jones, I had a chance to know her, and She taught me a lots of things about student affairs and what we're here for, and so I broke the rule. I gave you 3, so that's enough. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:45]: Number 4, your Essential Student Affairs Read. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:38:48]: Essential Student Affairs Read? Actually, Esther Lloyd Jones, deeper learning and leadership 1954. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:53]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:38:58]: Oh, wow. Do I have to admit it? Succession. I'm sorry. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:06]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:39:10]: I actually listen to I do listen to this one, and I Really, really enjoyed this this podcast, but I watch, the International Leadership Association podcast, and there are actually a couple of them that I watch, regularly to get the wisdom from those. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:25]: And finally, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:39:29]: I thank Chris For introducing me to this opportunity, I think I'm kinda known in the in the professional world as more of an ACPA kind of person. So I don't show up in the NASPA space as As often as I might, even though I've been an ASPA member most of my career. Kevin Kruger was he had his 1st job with me. Yeah. And lots and lots of colleagues that are very active in NASPA, but I have maintained more in the the, ACPA area. And, you know, for me, these professional associations are so important in terms of giving us a colleague network, a way to push our understanding to Standing to learn from each other and that kind of thing. And so I I would give a a shout out to folks like you that are trying to get people's voices out there and get exchanged And professional organizations that allow us to relate to one another and discover how to do our best work. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:21]: Thank you so much, Denny. It's been an incredible opportunity to get know you today and your story. If anyone would like to reach you after the show airs, how can they find you? Dr. Denny Roberts [00:40:30]: My professional email is dc [email protected]. And in Wilmette, Illinois, I have a LinkedIn profile. I have 2 blogs That I maintain one is called Pursuing Leadership by Denny, and that one's mostly about it has a lot in travel because I started in 2005 when I went to Luxembourg, but it's all by reading that I do on a regular basis. And then the other one's called Global Student Affairs. And that's more about international implications For people that are in student affairs work. So those would be the best ways to get in touch with me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:05]: I'm looking forward to checking out that second one in particular. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:41:07]: Jill, it's been great. Yeah. We have so many nice connections, and I feel like we're possibly birthed from the same parents. I don't know. But Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:16]: I appreciate the deep connections on so many levels, whether it be music or international higher education or student affairs journey or even where we've been in the US. So, Denny, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Dr. Denny Roberts [00:41:29]: Great. Alright. I look forward to seeing you again. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:34]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at s a voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. Ginz. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:08]: It really does help other student fairs professionals find the show, and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your or as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Adapting to Students' Needs Across Institutional Types The recent episode of the SA Voices From The Field Podcast featuring Hing Potter dove deep into student affairs and the unique intricacies of working at different types of educational institutions. Potter's transition to the assistant director of student life and leadership at City College of San Francisco brought to light his advocacy for student development through inclusion and empowerment, which is a hallmark of his 11-year career. Changes in Professional Focus One remarkable aspect Potter shared was how his professional focus needed to shift as he navigated the diverse environments of 4-year public, 4-year private, and 2-year public institutions. This included adjusting plans and thought processes according to the timeframe of students' academic careers, thereby reinforcing the importance of adaptability in student affairs. Ensuring Continuity and Leadership Another challenge Dr. Jill Creighton discussed with Potter is how to guarantee continuity and develop student leadership within the limited timespan specific to 2-year colleges. Potter emphasized the need for transparency in passing on institutional knowledge, ensuring that successive student councils can uphold and continue advocating for student experiences. Salary Negotiation and Personal Advocacy The episode also highlighted Hing Potter's recent negotiation for a higher salary at City College, a testament to recognizing and advocating for one's value in the workplace. Dr. Jill Creighton's insights into the importance of comparing qualifications with job descriptions, depersonalizing negotiations, and communicating in writing provided listeners with valuable tips for their own career advancements. Upcoming NASPA Events Additionally, the episode provided updates on upcoming NASPA events, such as the 2024 Leadership Educators Institute and the 2024 national conference. These gatherings represent the changing and elevating landscape of student affairs as professionals continue their journey. Hing Potter's story is not just about the transitions within the professional sphere but also about personal growth and advocacy. It teaches us the profound impact of understanding institutional types, the art of negotiation, and the continuous pursuit of fostering student success.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This Podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on SA Voices, we are pleased to welcome Heng Potter. Going into 11 years in student affairs, Heng Potter, he, him, main drive has been to support student development by creating space and opportunity through inclusion, empowerment, and self authorship. In his own state of transition this past fall, Hing became the new assistant director of student life and leadership at City College of San Francisco where he advises the Associated Students, overseas student clubs and orgs, and is responsible for the student union. As a Khmer Transracial Transnational Adoptee or TRA and having previous life and work in Seattle, Boise, New York City, San Jose, and now San Francisco, Heng is no stranger to transformative life experience and transitions from one place to the next. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:08]: In the community. Heng serves on the leadership team of the San Francisco chapter of Project by Project, a national nonprofit focused on amplifying Asian American issues, and he also serves on the leadership team of the NASPA Asian Pacific Islander Knowledge Community or APIKC. In his own time, Hing enjoys travel, photography, and spending time with a 17 year old dachshund, Buster, and his partner, Jasmine. Ping, welcome to SA Voices. Hing Potter [00:01:33]: Hi. Thanks for having me here today. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:35]: We're very glad to feature you today about your transition that is fairly fresh. By the time this episode airs, you'll have been in your new position for about 3 or for months. But right now, we're sitting at about the 60 day mark. And right now, before we get into all of the details of your transition, I'd love guests to start with how you got to your current seat. Hing Potter [00:01:55]: Yeah. Thank you so much again. Let's see. I came To City College of San Francisco because in my previous role, I felt like I had just outgrown myself. There wasn't much room for need to expand my professional skills or abilities. And I really just wanted to find a new challenge, a new way for me to interact with students, And I think it was just time for me to move on. So, you know, I did the whole thing where I put myself out there as best possible in different Formats apply to different colleges and universities, and City College of San Francisco is one of them, back in, I think, April time. And then I had a Couple interviews, 1 in the end of April and then 1 in the middle of May. Hing Potter [00:02:35]: That interview was all the way when I was vacationing in Spain, unforced I was actually on my way to my cousin's Wedding rehearsal dinner a hour before that. And I had, like, my laptop and everything on top of, like, this ironing board to give it elevation and stuff, And I met with the dean and the vice chancellor at that time. And then, over the summer, I eventually heard back by August. And 2 months later, I'm here. So that's, in a nutshell, what happened. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:02]: And you physically moved as well. Yes? Moved cities? Hing Potter [00:03:05]: Kind of. Actually, if we wanna expand this whole transition period, when the pandemic hit in early 2020, that's when I had actually moved from New York City to San Jose, California, so South Bay Area. And that was when I also moved into that new position at my previous role. And then that was an experience in itself because I felt like maybe I was, like, one of the first people to actually move geographical locations in the early onset of Pandemic, and I had left pretty much all of my stuff in New York. I brought a suitcase with me of just clothes, and then I had to ask a friend back in New York to Muster up the courage and go to my apartment and, like, pack all my stuff and wear a face mask and tell her to, like, please take care of yourself. If you don't feel comfortable, Please don't do this. But if it you are able to, I would, like, be more than happy to, like, compensate you in some way, shape, or form. I'll even pay for the shipping, of course. Hing Potter [00:03:57]: And so she was actually very, very, very helpful, and I'm so much gratitude for her for shipping all my stuff out to me from New York to the Bay Area. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:05]: That's a great friend. Hing Potter [00:04:06]: Yeah. Somebody who really went above and beyond the call of duty. And then fast forward a couple years Now from San Jose, I now live in kinda close by Stanford University in between Palo Alto, Menlo Park area. And I'm here with my partner and our little tiny 16 year old, dachshund. So his name is bust. Oh, senior doggy. Yes. He's a pandemic puppy. Hing Potter [00:04:30]: A couple years ago, my partner really, really, really, really wanted a dog, so We finally caved. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:36]: So thinking about all of the transitions that you've gone through, and it's really not just this immediate transition, but Lots of transitions starting about 3, 4 years ago at this point. How did you prepare yourself mentally to throw yourself into new environments and new spaces and new collegial relationships when the world was kind of in upheaval. Hing Potter [00:04:57]: I think for me, coming from New York to the Bay Area, That was definitely a challenge because, you know, initially, I had asked if I could go from New York to my parents in Seattle. And they actually told me no, not because they don't love me, but because at that time, everybody's very nervous about the Pandemic, and my parents are 60 and over. And at that time, you know, elderly people wanna be cautious. And that also New York was One of the early epicenters of the pandemic. And so they actually told me no. I was devastated inside, and I didn't know exactly how I was gonna get out of New York. I didn't know how I was gonna to this new job that I had lined up for myself. I didn't know if it would be safe to fly. Hing Potter [00:05:40]: A lot of things were up in the air. So I must've got my own courage. I bought a ticket actually from New York to Idaho because I went to undergrad in Idaho, and I made a lot of good friends out there. And Idaho hadn't really been hit yet, So I called up my friends there and say, hey. I need a crash over there. Can I hang out with you for a little bit? They're like, yeah. Yeah. No problem. Hing Potter [00:06:00]: Stay as long as you need. Get yourself out of New York. Do what you need to do. So I went to Idaho, actually, and I was there for a whole month, April that year. And then my job was supposed to start in June, and so I needed to somehow then get from Idaho to the Bay Area. So then I ended up buying a car because I realized at that time the pandemic was just getting worse, and flying just wasn't an option anymore for me, Personally, I just didn't feel comfortable. And so I bought a car, and then I drove all the way from Idaho to the Bay Area. It's about maybe 10 hours or so Driving, and I got here. Hing Potter [00:06:38]: And in the whole mist of, like, trying to get from Idaho to the Bay Area, I found this guy on Craigslist who had a extra room in a bungalow house for pretty cheap. And I was like, hey. It's something he told me he that he keeps his place clean and sanitary, and then he takes all the COVID precautions at that time, and I had to trust him and just go with it. So I did that. And then I got there in May, had a couple weeks to just Chill and not do anything, like, literally not do anything because everybody's on shutdown, and I'm just twiddling my thumbs in front of my face trying to stay active somehow. And then 2 weeks later, I start on June 1st at my previous role and went from there. It was a wild, maybe two and a half months or so In that transition. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:20]: So by comparison, your transition to your current position maybe seems a little more mild. Hing Potter [00:07:25]: It definitely. A little bit more mild, a little bit more easy to Navigate. I didn't necessarily have to, like, change states twice. I didn't have to figure out how to get from a to b buying a new car or anything. Or I have a car now. Thank goodness. And I can take public transportation, which is pretty nice. And City of College isn't that far from where I live now, where I as I used to work in San Jose, California. Hing Potter [00:07:47]: When you're now, I work in almost South San Francisco area, so not too much of a hassle there. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:51]: Did you change functional areas? Hing Potter [00:07:53]: You could say that. Yes. So in my previous role, I was in student services, which is more comprehensive. It supported students, particularly graduate students, trying to help them with navigating everything From student involvement to student resources to crisis management, title 9 advocacy, and Overall student services operations, so making sure everything from new student orientation in their own transition into the university, All the way to commencement so they're transitioned out of the university. And here in my new role, I strictly just advise the associate student Councils. I support student clubs and organizations, and I'm responsible for the student union building. So a lot more, you know, defined role for me, a lot more Concentrated, which I appreciate, and a big pay bump for me. So I'm I'm happy about where I'm at right now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:43]: I believe you also shifted from private to 2 year public, which is, I think, a pretty big mentality shift in terms of how you approach the work every day. So tell us about that transition of environment. Hing Potter [00:08:56]: Oh my gosh. That is definitely something of a transition to experience. So I actually used to work in a public institution where I got to experience all that bureaucracy, barriers, and red tape, whatever you wanna call it. And then coming to My previous university as a private institution, you have a lot of leeway to kinda just do what you need to do. You have a lot more independent ability to make decisions and support your students in a more immediate manner. And I had my own university card, which was Super flexible in terms of, like, just making purchases and getting what we needed to have for our next event. You still set boundaries, of course, with their students So, like, hey. You gotta meet some timelines. Hing Potter [00:09:37]: I can't just go out tomorrow and get what you need for the next day, but it was a lot more flexible, I would say. And here coming back into the public sector, you definitely hit the wall really hard In terms of what is allowable in certain time frames and how you can get things done through different mechanisms. I also don't have a university or a college card anymore, so that's very interesting. And I actually had a a conversation with some students today. And Normally on Fridays, they get pizza for their meetings. And so this Friday, because it's their last meeting of the semester, they wanted to kinda have a little bit more of a Grandiose food invitation for people to come and join them. And they they honestly came up to me and said, hey, Heng. I know that this is really Awkward, but would you be willing to help us with, like, food and stuff? And I was like, well, what do you mean? Like, well, are you okay with putting this on your card, and we'll reimburse you? Like, Which is typical at this school. Hing Potter [00:10:38]: But in such a short period of time, I really had to just say, you know what? I can't do this. This is only a couple days notice, and you don't know if I have this money set aside personally for other things that I need to do. And I'm gonna be honest. Like, you guys need to prepare or plan ahead more in advance for something like this. You can't just make last minute adjustments. And the fact that you coming up to me saying, hey. Hey. This is really awkward, lets me know that you know you didn't plan well enough for quite a change in just 2 days. Hing Potter [00:11:07]: So There's that kind of mentality when it comes to how you get funds and resources or how you have to Plan ahead and think about what you wanna do. And at a private institution, you might be able to have a little bit more flexibility with last minute adjustments. But at a public institution, you kinda have to be committed. One of my previous roles when I was in New York at John Jay, all of our clubs had to Submit, for example, a whole year's worth, a calendar of events with budgets for each events, and that was due before classes started in the fall. And these were events all the way from September all the way to next May. And at at private school, you still have a year's worth of events planned out, but you don't have to Necessarily preallocate a whole bunch of stuff that far in advance. So a lot more flexibility in terms of, like, what you can and cannot do. So quickly learning that back here in the public sector on my own. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:00]: Flexibility, but also budgetary privilege. So I think depending on the nature of your private institution, the funds are just unrestricted in different ways where they might be more restricted at a public institution, but also the privilege of the size of the budget Or the different things that you're doing. And it always hurts my heart to hear that a lot of times that students or individual Professionals are funding the work of the university and having it reimbursed. I think that's a business practice that is really challenging because it makes a lot of assumptions, and it also puts the labor on the people that are earning the least. It's just it's a challenging dynamic. Hing Potter [00:12:37]: Me and my new dean, we we talked about how where do we draw the line when it comes to like this. And is this really our problem in terms of using our personal funds, or how much of this is a college problem? The fact that the college doesn't have the mechanisms in place is not my issue, and it's not my dean's issue. It's, you know, the college's issue that They can't have systems where it's more streamlined and it's more beneficial and it's more immediate For the student experience. So that really does impact how they go around doing things. And I don't want students to be spending most of their Time when they're in these leadership roles or in they're in these student clubs trying to navigate these systems. That's not what being involved uninvolved student is about. I want them to be able to just do what they need to do, and institutions in general need to figure out what that is that they can do to kind of, like, break down those Barriers. Unfortunately, it might not always be a college issue. Hing Potter [00:13:33]: It could be a district wide issue, or it could be a state issue. And in different institutions, It could come down to, you know, the registrars or the bursars or whoever's controlling the money for the institution. It could be a specific department issue and a range of things, but Students shouldn't have to be navigating those those types of waters in the 1st place, I don't think. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:53]: Other than the budgetary modeling and planning, what are the other differences that you're experiencing moving from private to public. Hing Potter [00:14:01]: Well, one of the things is that at my private institution that I was at, it was a 4 year institution. But I was working mostly with graduate students in tech. And now I'm working with community college students who Have a range of ages and a range of perspectives. And I was also formally more working mostly with international graduate Students. And now I'm working with mostly domestic US students. So that's kind of a shift in itself. Working with international students, you really had to Talk to them a lot more about culture and around how higher ed works in terms of different systems and processes to get their programming in place. Whereas at City College of San Francisco, the students are a little bit more intuitive about these processes because it's kind of built into the culture of, like, going to school and the stuff that my international students were doing, the graduate international students were Very more professional development focused, whereas the community college students, they're more about building culture. Hing Potter [00:15:02]: They're more about enriching this the campus experience. They're also doing a lot of they have this theme this year, informal theme of advocacy. So they're really trying to, like, source What are the issues on campus and how they're impacting students and what their role is in terms of advocating for a better experience when it comes to x, y, and z issues. So Whereas the international students, again, more professional development focused, not necessarily too concerned with the policies and issues that might that you might find at institution of of a 4 year institutions. Kinda some of those on the surface level differences for sure. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:37]: I feel like a lot of Professionals spend most of their career in one type of institution, and you've done 4 year public, 4 year private, and now 2 year public. Kind of looking across all of those experiences. And to overgeneralize to a degree, what do you see as kind of the changes in Foci for you as a professional as you navigate these different types of institutions. Hing Potter [00:16:00]: I think, For me, the focus between we'll just generalize from a 4 year to a 2 year. The focus is at a 4 year institution, You have the ability to work with the students in a little bit more long term opportunity. You're working for example, when I was at John Jay, I'm working with these students who find themselves invested in in programming and involvement and leadership in a more long term plan. Whereas Here at City College, they wanna be done in 2 years. And so they wanna have action. They wanna have things get done a lot more quickly. But, again, kinda going back to the whole bureaucracy machine, how quickly that happens can be different. So it's like I was talking to a student actually the other day. Hing Potter [00:16:47]: We were talking about this whole three five seven plan. What do you wanna have normally happen in 3 years and 5 years and 7 years? And I had to work with the student to say, like, okay. Well, we're at a 2 year school. Instead of 357, what do you wanna have done maybe in, like, 2 semesters, in 3 semesters, and 4 semesters? Because by that time, now the question should be, what have you been able to do in terms of advocating for the student experience that you want? And when you walk away, What kind of legacy will you be proud to have left here at City College that you can say, I did that? Whereas at a 4 year institution, I'm I'm working with students. Not necessarily 357 again, but more of like, k. What do you wanna do in the 1st year, the 2nd year, 3rd year, and 4th year? So it's a little bit different planning, a little bit different, like, Thought process when I'm working with the students in that regard. How do Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:41]: you plan for continuity and student leadership in a model that's much shorter in time frame? Hing Potter [00:17:47]: Oh my goodness. It really does come down, I think, to working with the students on that transition between leadership. So, for example, really working with the council that I have right now and saying, how are we building your council institutional knowledge, And how are we working to make sure that that knowledge is passed on to the next council in a transparent and clear way? What are you doing right now to make sure that if so and so person who follows you in your footsteps, When they pick up the work that you're doing, they can easily see, oh, okay. I have to now do steps 3, 4, and 5 because the last person did Steps 1 and 2. So it really comes down to that clear transparency of what they're doing now, how they're doing it, and Putting it together for, clearly, for the next group. One of the things that we actually talked about coincidentally today is communication. Not just communication between each other today, but communication between a theoretical group that's gonna take over next year And then that group that's gonna take over in 2 years. City College is building its new student success center. Hing Potter [00:18:54]: And one of the big projects that this council wants to have is this social justice mural that will go in the student success center. The building is not gonna be done for another, maybe, two and a half years. So by then, we'll be 2, maybe 3 councils down the road. What does that continuity look like between today and the council that looks To be there in place when the student success center actually comes online. So these are questions that I'm asking of them to consider as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:21]: You've got this beautiful plan going forward, and we all know that with student leadership shifts, priorities change as well. How do you Think you're going to be navigating when the priorities of previous councils don't align with the future councils. Hing Potter [00:19:36]: I think the biggest thing when I'm working with students is really creating a mindset of student Advocacy, student experience, and this notion of student involvement that is meaningful And that is impactful. And so the focus of each council I think it's okay for it to change year over year if that's the case. But as long as it's still centered and rooted in enhancing the student experience or enhancing the Opportunities that students have to get involved and get engaged, grow their skill sets professionally and personally, then I think that's the core thing to to maintain. And that's something that I will always tell students regardless of how long I'm in this field. And that's something that I've always told students for the 10 years that I've been in this field is that priorities change, and that's totally fine. And my job isn't necessarily to tell students what their priorities should be. My job is to tell them, Hey. Your priorities are great. Hing Potter [00:20:36]: They make sense that they're sustainable. But as long as they're rooted in the ability for students to grow themselves. I think that's the most important factor there. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:46]: Let's back up a little bit and talk about you as a human doing all of these transitions. So you've created what sounds like a really great game plan for yourself for the next couple of semesters in this new position. But what other factors did you need to be thinking about about entering a new role, especially knowing that the institutional type was going to be a new environment for you. Hing Potter [00:21:07]: Personally, for me, before I came to City College, One of the requirements for me was that I needed them to honor my 2 week vacation that I had that I just came back from a couple weeks ago when I went to Asia. And if they didn't do that, then that was gonna be a deal breaker. And so luckily for me, they said yes. Like, no worries. We'll make it work. We definitely wanna respect that. Another thing for me was just making sure that my own value was seen and met In terms of the abilities that I bring to the table, but also the lifestyle that I wanted to maintain or grow myself. So in terms of, like, a salary, I had to really learn how to advocate. Hing Potter [00:21:46]: This is my 1st time advocating for a salary that I wanted, a salary that I knew that I deserved. I think, City College, they they have this grade step program where I think it's, like, grades 1 through 12 or something. And they posted this position as grade 1, so they were gonna offer me grade 1. And me knowing what I know, how long I've been in the field, I knew that I was not at that value. So I also felt a little bit like, okay. Grade 1 is entry level. You know? I'm I'm justifying these reasons for why I'm not a grade one person. Grade one is entry level. Hing Potter [00:22:23]: I'm well beyond entry level. I have a better understanding of the student experience At multiple different types of institutions, coast to coast, I'm not grade one value. So I actually had to write this out in an email to them to the HR office. And I, you know, came to them with all these points. And the next day, they gave me a call, and I said, Hey. How's it going? And they said, well, we wanted to talk to you about your salary. And I was like, okay. Well, first, before you say anything, I'm sorry. Hing Potter [00:22:51]: But before you say anything, Did you get my email? Yes. We got your email. Okay. Great. And I wanted to ask that because it's super important that we start there because that is what's important to me. That is where I see my value. And what can you offer me based upon me being in student affairs for 10 years, me having all this different and the fact that you came to me asking me to come to City College. And so they actually bumped me up 3 or 4 grades more, which was An extra almost $20,000. Hing Potter [00:23:23]: So when they offered me that, I was like, okay. Now we're talking. Like, I can come to City College now. So it was a lot of anxiety. It was I was really nervous when I'm typing this email out to HR. My fingers were sweating, and I had never really been Taught or told how to write an email out like this or or anything? I mean, people tell you all the time, know your worth. Know what your value is. And I honestly think, you know, it is easier said than done to, like, give this advice to people. Hing Potter [00:23:52]: But when the person who's receiving that advice takes it, Yes. You can receive it. But then when it comes time to execute it, it's a whole another story. Like, you now have to do something that you might not ever have done before. You might have to do something that another person that looks like me, a brown Asian person, might not have ever done before. And so I share this story now because I think it's super important that I have now lived this experience. I have written that email. I've Had that tough conversation with HR to say, this is a deal breaker. Hing Potter [00:24:23]: If you don't see my value, don't recognize me for what I bring to the table, then I don't know if I can come to City College. Luckily enough for me, they saw that and were able to give me what I wanted. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:33]: And I think that's great advice. And, also, it sounds like you were willing to walk away if that was necessary. Hing Potter [00:24:39]: I'll be completely honest. I wasn't necessarily happy at my previous role because, as I said, there was no growth you did for me there. I wasn't doing the creative work that I love doing anymore there because I just didn't have the opportunities to to banned. But if City College didn't see my worth or my value, I sadly was going to stay at my previous role and suck it up because It just wasn't something that I really wanted to fight for, to go to battle for. I was making the self conscious decision that Even though I wasn't growing, I still loved the students. And I don't think anybody I'm not saying to do what I do or Think about what I think about, but it's a really sad situation, I think, when people are put into those situations. And having to decide whether you You wanna stay at a place where you have no growth, but you love the students or having to potentially go somewhere else where they might see your value, but you don't know what you're getting yourself into. So it's it's a tricky field to navigate. Hing Potter [00:25:41]: And regardless of who you are, I wouldn't wish that on anybody. It just happened to turn out in my favor for me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:47]: We haven't talked a ton about salary negotiation on the show, and I think you've offered some really important tips. Let me repackage them just really concisely for folks who are trying to negotiate for themselves and have never done it before. Step 1 is to compare your resume and your experiences with the job description and really note where you meet and where you exceed those minimum qualifications and those preferred qualifications because that's gonna be your starting point for arguing for more money. It's not really an argument, a negotiation. And I think step 2 is, Ping said it really well, you need to be working with HR, not necessarily the hiring manager, depending on who's making the offer, and it is typically coming from the HR perspective. Sometimes you're gonna run up against a budgetary limitation where there's only so much budgeted for the position and there's not flexibility, and that's something you need to be prepared to here. And sometimes you're going to be in a position like Hain was where your experiences are clearly articulated in a way that the budgetary Alignment wasn't there from the starting spot and you can get there together to an ending spot. But I think another important thing is to depersonalize it a little bit. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:54]: So instead of saying, can you offer x? Perhaps can x institution offer this amount of money? And so you're asking what the institution can do, not what the person can do. And that can depersonalize it a little bit and make it really more about the business perspective about what's happening in your salary negotiation. The 3rd piece of advice that I heard from Hing is make sure you do it in writing at first. And then beyond that, you can have that negotiation conversation on the phone. But getting it out in writing also gives both parties a chance to really be reflective and think about things. And that way, it's also not a pressured environment for either party, and no one is kind of at liberty to respond in the moment. They can both go back and take some time. Did I miss any tips from you, Heng? Hing Potter [00:27:37]: No. That was very well, succinctly said for me. Appreciate it. The only other thing that I would Definitely recommend is that when you do go into a different institution and you start looking at how their salaries are structured is really becoming knowledgeable about their pay grade systems and how it works. The California Community College System is a beast, And I wouldn't know where to look because I don't know the system that well. But when I had started looking at the salary options and things like that, A really good friend of mine, doctor Dawn Li from San Jose State University, she had previous experience in the community college system and really gave me some good advice and helped me to navigate some of these intricacies when it comes to payroll structures and how to word things and how to really advocate for yourself. So I really wanna just give a shout out to her and give her all the things and and being able to support me. So having somebody, you know, with that experience in Whatever system you are looking potentially to go into, that's another plus on your half if you can get that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:42]: It's time to take a quick Break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:48]: Thanks so much, Jill. Really excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there is So much going on as we continue to move into 2024. The 2024 Leadership Educators Institute is from December 9th through 11th in Philadelphia. Make sure to save that date because the Leadership Educators Institute or LEI provides a unique Opportunity for all professional levels within our field to engage in critical dialogue to promote positive, sustainable change on their campuses. LEI is a partnership between NASPA, ACPA, College Student Educators International, and the National Clearing House for leadership programs. Go to the NASBA website under events for more information. If you are planning to attend the 2024 national conference in Seattle, Washington from March 9th through 13th. There's a number of things that you need to know. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:42]: Make sure to check your email because you're getting dates sent to you on a regular basis. There are still opportunities to sign up the volunteer at NASPA 2024. So if you're interested in helping to make this year's conference amazing, make sure to sign up today to be able to Find some time to volunteer at as a part of this amazing conference. Volunteering is a fantastic way to support the conference, serve your colleagues, And make this year's event the best it can possibly be. As I said, an email has been sent out with a sign up that you can use to be able to find a time that works best for your schedule, and I encourage you to take advantage of that right away. Recently, Aku Oai, the placement exchange in NASPA released a joint statement with some exciting news about the placement exchange. They've developed a brand new brand identity, a new website, revamped resources, and enhanced Services. If you haven't checked it out yet, I encourage you to check out the newly redesigned website at www Dot the placement exchange, all one word, .org. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:51]: Though TPE is gonna look a little bit different and feel a little bit different, They are elevating their game to be able to do what they can to be able to assist all of us as professionals in our own professional journey. So check out the placement exchange today to find out more about what TPE can offer you in the journey that you're on. I also wanted to let you know about a Free event that is happening called well-being in higher education, raising literacy and advancing the conversation. Join over 20 higher education associations As they come together in dialogue around well-being. Now this buzzword is seemingly everywhere, But what does it really mean? Why does it matter? And how can we each contribute to this critical work? Well-being in higher education, raising literacy, and Dancing the Conversation is a free virtual event taking place February 26th through March 1st. The well-being in higher education event is One of the outcomes of the health and well-being in higher education, a commitment to student success, and will help Put the inter association well-being definition into practice. Registration details and a more detailed schedule of sessions is available on the NASPA website. So go to the NASPA website today to find out more about this amazing free professional development event. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:14]: Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So We are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because The association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be Getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, It's important to be able to identify for yourself. Where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that We will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will Provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, To offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents and to all of the members within the association because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:34]: Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:39]: Chris, thank you so much for another excellent NASPA world segment. We really appreciate you keeping us stated on what's going on in and around in NASPA. And, Heng, we have reached the part of the show where we do our lightning round, and I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. You ready? Hing Potter [00:33:55]: Let's do it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:56]: Alright. Question 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music Hing Potter [00:34:03]: to be. Maybe, Get Low by, Lil Jon and the Yingying Twins. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:06]: Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew Hing Potter [00:34:10]: A pilot. An airline pilot, hands down. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:13]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Hing Potter [00:34:16]: I would say my housing director From when I was in ResLife as a resident assistant back in Seattle, Luke Botstein from Edmonds College. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:27]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Hing Potter [00:34:30]: At the moment, the NASPA conference 2024 website because I'm trying to stay up on today on that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:36]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Hing Potter [00:34:39]: I rewatched The West Wing, I think, for the 6th or 7th time, and then I'm also a Trekkie, so I watched Star Trek The Next Generation, then Deep Space Nine, and then Voyager. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:49]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Hing Potter [00:34:53]: Probably a toss-up between the The Daily, I think it is, and then the NPR Politics podcast in the afternoon. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:59]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? Hing Potter [00:35:03]: Definitely wanna give a shout out to my friends on the API KCL looking forward to a 2024 conference experience that's gonna be amazing with you all. And then also specifically to my My awards and recognition co chairs Jerome and Justin. So really appreciate being with you all. And then, of course, Wanna give a shout out lastly to my best and favorite director ever out there in New York City, doctor Danielle Officer at John Jay College. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:33]: Ping, it's been a pleasure to hear about your transition today. If others would like to reach you after the show, how can they grab you? Hing Potter [00:35:39]: Send me a DM or Follow me on Instagram at Hing d Potter or threads. I guess that's the new thing these days. Feel free to follow me on threads. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:48]: Hing, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Hing Potter [00:35:50]: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me again. Really appreciate it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:56]: This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with to the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill Elcraton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a five a star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's to profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor to Chris Lewis. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:44]: Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

This week on the SA Voices From The Field Podcast we bring you Angelina Jenkins, Assistant Director with Initiatives for Identity, Inclusion, & Belonging (i3b) for The Mosaic: Center for Cultural Diversity at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County. We are excited to explore her own professional journey as a mid level professional to doctoral student while also balancing and supporting her own multiple identities and what has helped her to become the person she is today. Angelina Jenkins (she/her/hers), originally from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania is a proud bi-racial, multi-ethnic Asian American woman and daughter of a South Korean immigrant. She integrates these aspects of her identity into celebrating authenticity and culture while also exploring the journey of building an understanding of self-empowerment. She works with students, staff/faculty, and community members to cultivate an inclusive learning and healing environment through the celebration of culture and identity. Angelina is currently the Assistant Director with Initiatives for Identity, Inclusion, & Belonging (i3b) for The Mosaic: Center for Cultural Diversity at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County. She is also in her first year of doctoral studies, pursuing a Ph.D. at The University of Maryland in the Higher Education, Student Affairs, and International Education Policy program. Angelina currently serves as one of the 2023-2025 Asian Pacific Islanders Promoting Educational eXcellence (APPEX) Coordinators for the NASPA APIKC Leadership Team.

As we step into the year 2024, Dr. Jill Creighton and Dr. Christopher Lewis are excited to bring you Season 10 of SA Voices from the Field! In this episode, the hosts reflect on our journey, celebrating the four-year anniversary of collaborating on the show and the immense impact it has had on the community. Embracing Transitions Dr. Creighton and Dr. Lewis highlighted the success of the previous season, which centered on transitions in student affairs. They expressed their enthusiasm for the overwhelming response from guests and listeners, prompting them to continue exploring this critical theme in the upcoming season. The decision to extend the focus on transitions demonstrates the importance of understanding and navigating the multifaceted experiences of professionals in student affairs. Diverse Perspectives on Transitions The hosts emphasized the diversity of transitions covered in the previous season, ranging from personal and professional life transitions to national and international relocations. This diversity underscored the multifaceted nature of transitions experienced by individuals within the student affairs community. By acknowledging and amplifying these diverse voices, the podcast fosters a more inclusive dialogue on the challenges and triumphs associated with transitions. The Power of Storytelling A key takeaway from the episode was the power of storytelling in engendering understanding and empathy. Dr. Creighton and Dr. Lewis expressed gratitude to the guests who shared their transition stories, emphasizing the impact of these narratives in enriching the collective knowledge of the student affairs community. By amplifying these stories, the podcast serves as a platform for professionals to learn from each other's experiences and gain insights into managing transitions effectively. Engaging the Community The hosts extended an invitation for the audience to actively participate in the upcoming season by sharing their transition stories. This call to action emphasizes the inclusive and participatory nature of the podcast, empowering listeners to contribute their voices to the ongoing dialogue. By featuring the community's stories, the podcast not only expands its content but also strengthens the sense of camaraderie and support among student affairs professionals. Connecting at Conferences Dr. Creighton and Dr. Lewis expressed anticipation for engaging with the audience at an upcoming conference in Seattle. They highlighted the significance of in-person connections and the opportunity to gather further insights from the community. The podcast's commitment to engaging with professionals in live settings underscores its dedication to fostering meaningful connections and continuously learning from the community. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 9 on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, And I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. It's 2024, Chris. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:25]: It is. It's amazing. I can't believe that it hits already 2024. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:29]: We were just talking about this in our preshow conversation, But this will actually mark the 4 year anniversary of us collaborating on this show. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:39]: I can say that I never would have expected that we would have Kept going for 4 years, but it has been an amazing ride. We've learned so much from so many of our guests, and it's been so much fun. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:50]: I am Very proud of the work that we've put out over the last couple of years. And this last season, season 9 on transitions has really been a popular one in terms of guests wanting to come on the show and people asking to hear more about these spaces. So for season 10, which feels fitting because it's on our anniversary of the show year. We're actually gonna just kinda keep it rolling, which we've never done before. We've never done a double season on 1 theme, But we felt like there were a lot more stories still to tell in this transition space. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:23]: Everyone's transition is so different. And we heard that in this season, in season 9, but so many people, like you said, came out of the woodwork and were like, I wanna tell my story. I wanna tell my story. So We are so excited to be able to continue to share these stories, and we wanna hear from you too because as we move into the conference, we're gonna be talking to you there. As we look at other aspects, we just encourage you to reach out and talk to us and share some of the stories that you have because The more that we all can share these stories, the more that we can learn, grow, and have better transitions as we move into other Positions, other jobs, other opportunities that may present themselves to us in the years to come. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:06]: When we talk to people with transitions in both personal life and professional life, and national life, and we welcome all of those. Some of you became parents. Some of you dealt with health transitions. Some of you transitioned parts of the country. Some of you transition countries, and many of you had a lot of great advice on how other professionals can learn from your experiences in transitions. So coming this February, we'll be back with our 10th season of essay voices from the field continuing our theme of on transitions in student affairs. And, again, as Chris mentioned, if you happen to be in Seattle, we can't wait to see you. We will be bringing our many pocket recorders with us again, and we'll have questions for you to feature your voice on the show. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:52]: This has been an episode of SA voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at sa voices at NASPA.org or or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show, and please like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:32]: This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill L. Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis, guest coordination by Liu Yongru. Special thanks to the University of Michigan in Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this week's bonus episode of the SA Voices From the Field Podcast, host Dr. Jill Creighton engaged in a thought-provoking discussion with guest Adam Jussel, the Dean of Students at the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee. Through their conversation, Jussel provided valuable insights into the complexities of trauma-informed care and the profound impact it can have on individuals within a university setting. This blog post aims to delve deeper into the essential topics discussed during the episode, shedding light on the challenges and strategies related to addressing stress and trauma within a campus community. Exploring the Impact of the Pandemic on Mental Health Adam Jussel shared compelling findings from a study conducted on mental health among university employees during the pandemic. The research revealed alarming statistics, with 36% of participants screening positive for post-traumatic stress disorder and over 40% experiencing extreme stress or near-extreme stress. This data underscores the profound impact of the pandemic on the mental well-being of university staff and faculty. Identifying Contributing Factors and Mitigating Strategies The study identified various factors that contributed to heightened stress and trauma, including the challenges of caregiving, social isolation, uncertainty about the future, and the lack of tools to mitigate stress. Additionally, political and civic strife in the United States emerged as a significant contributor to exacerbating trauma and stress during the pandemic. On the other hand, the study also highlighted several mitigating factors, such as the presence of a strong social support network, spending time outside, physical activity, a sense of purpose, and meaningful experiences in work. Implementing Trauma-Informed Care Frameworks Adam Jussel emphasized the value of trauma-informed care and highlighted the creation of a trauma-informed care toolkit and workshops for the campus community. This proactive approach aimed at providing support, understanding, and resources for individuals impacted by trauma. The utilization of the campus cares framework facilitated the elevation of the frontline and mid-level staff's experience, fostering a culture of care across the university. The Role of Meaningful Work in Mitigating Trauma Jussel's discussion on the concept of the meaning of work and its potential to mitigate stress and trauma sheds light on the importance of cultivating a sense of purpose within the workforce. The ongoing research on this topic holds promising implications for the development of strategies to enhance the overall well-being of individuals in the workplace. Updates on Key Events in the NASPA World: The episode also provided informative updates on notable events within the NASPA world, including an upcoming national symposium and the 2024 NASPA virtual conference. This illustrates a commitment to fostering professional development and networking opportunities within the higher education community. Closing Thoughts The eye-opening conversation between Dr. Jill Creighton and Adam Jussel sheds light on the compelling work being done to address stress and trauma within university settings. It underscores the importance of implementing trauma-informed care frameworks and cultivating a supportive environment for faculty, staff, and students. As we navigate the complexities of the modern world, these insights serve as a beacon of hope, guiding us towards creating inclusive and empathetic communities within educational institutions. In conclusion, the podcast episode featuring Adam Jussel serves as a valuable resource, offering actionable insights for those involved in community support and trauma-informed care within educational environments. By acknowledging the challenges and opportunities in this space, we can collectively work towards creating nurturing and resilient communities. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 9 on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Adam, welcome to the show. Adam Jussel [00:00:24]: Hey. Hey. Thank you so much for having me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:26]: I'm glad to see you again. For our listeners, Adam and I, like many of our guests, have known each other in the field for what feels like Not a short time anymore. Adam Jussel [00:00:36]: Long time. Not a long time. Yeah. But we were very, very briefly colleagues at Washington State way back in the day. I think probably feels like a past life for both of us at this point. Adam Jussel [00:00:45]: Lots of gray hairs between, then and now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:48]: Well, Adam, you're currently at the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee. We always love to start to get to know our guests by asking you, how did you get to your current seat? Adam Jussel [00:00:56]: Thank you for asking. A lot of people ask someone from the Pacific Northwest ends up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and it's totally by Both random set of circumstance and the profession. And so was it in the assistant dean of students role, director of student conduct at Washington State University, He was looking for a change, looking to move. I we joke that we wanted to be within at least a 20 minute drive of a Trader Joe's, and so looking for a little thing that was a little more Urban, public Washington, as you well know, not exactly the bustling city environment, so we wanted to try something new. And we're We're looking around the country really just to make a move, and UWM fit the bill both because of its access mission, and it is a research one institution. I have been in this role for a little over 4 years, and I am the dean of students and associate vice chancellor of student affairs. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:46]: So I like to Say that, you know, for me, civilization, as I learned in Pullman, was having an airport, a Target, and a Chipotle. I didn't know that about myself until I moved there. But as I was there, There was a Chipotle that opened right before the pandemic started, and then a Target came in, like, a year later. And they're getting a new airport, like, this month. So Adam Jussel [00:02:06]: Wonderful place. Still have lots of friends there. Met my now partner there, and and WSU is a great place to live and work for nearly 10 years. So, yeah, that Pullman, Washington. Go check it out if you haven't. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:17]: Well, if you're not checking out the police, you should also check out Adam's research, and that's really what we're gonna be talking with Adam today. You spent a lot of the pandemic focusing on trauma informed care, and that's really a core ethos for what you're doing in the DOS role At University of Wisconsin Milwaukee, for those of you who wanna go dive a little deeper, you can check out the trauma informed toolkit on the Dean of Students website for University of Wisconsin Milwaukee. But, also, Adam, you have a new article out with some coauthors that I'm excited to dig into today. This article can be found in psychological trauma theory research practice and policy journal, and it's coauthored by Elaine Goldstein, Dimitri Topotaz, and Roger Brown. Title of the article is mental health among university employees during the COVID nineteen pandemic, the role of previous life trauma and current post traumatic stress symptoms, which is a very, very long title. I know a lot of our listeners are like, are we done talking about the pandemic? But I think this is actually a really important topic as we transition into a post pandemic era for higher education for our students and for the field. So why don't you go ahead and break down on what this means in really simple terms. Start. Adam Jussel [00:03:26]: Thanks for the opening. Was really blessed to work on this research and continuing to work on this research, with those great colleagues, Dimitri, University of Wisconsin Milwaukee. And during the early phases of the pandemic, We had, like, a lot of campuses, really robust emergency operation command tactical response To what our students, faculty, and staff were experiencing as it relates to the pandemic. So we had testing protocols, and we had isolation and quarantine Processes. We had testing centers and then ultimately vaccination clinics. All of these kind of very operational pieces, but one element that was missing was, It may seem cliche to say, but it was the heart. You know, what were the psychosocial emotional experiences of our students? And really what this research digs into is the staff and We attempted to frame this work as the campus is an ecosystem. We can't care for our students unless we are carried for ourselves. Adam Jussel [00:04:23]: At least that's That's the way I kind of approached it. So the impetus for this work and the trauma informed care approach was under the hypothesis that we know that these jobs were stressful pre pandemic. Anybody listening to the student affairs focused podcast has moments where they said, hey, gosh. This job is so stressful. I feel like I'm burnt out. I feel like I'm Front line interacting with some really heavy stuff. And that the pandemic, at least we debated that. So we wanted to dig into the anecdotal experiences that folks were telling us about and really see what the research bore out using primarily, at least initially survey data. Adam Jussel [00:04:59]: That was kind of the genesis of this of this project. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:02]: I think you make some really important points. We saw the mass exodus from the field post pandemic, with the great resignation, it deeply affected all industries and certainly student affairs. And anecdotally, one of the things we heard is the field asks Too much of people for not enough compensation. That's a constant theme, in student affairs. And so tell us about how your research really shown a light on how our profession was reacting. And I think one of the things that I appreciate about your article as well is that it really broke it down by identifiable factors curves of who you are in the profession and how it affected you differently. Adam Jussel [00:05:37]: Yeah. So for folks that ultimately direct people to read the article, but just kind of a cliff notes is We had nearly 650 recipients, 636 participants in our survey. Those scaffold across divisions, departments, Anywhere in the institution, but was focused only on staff and faculty because we really wanted to hone in on that experience. And of those 636 participants, a large amount, 36%. We use a post traumatic stress disorder screening tool. It's a metric that we use. 36% produced a positive post traumatic stress disorder screen As it related to pandemic related impacts. And so that doesn't mean that they have post traumatic stress disorder. Adam Jussel [00:06:14]: It just simply means that a screening tool identified them. There would be follow-up from A clinician or someone in the field to identify that and hone further, but that number was staggering to us. 36% is a high number. What illuminated it further was that over 40% experienced extreme stress or near extreme stress, so that's not your stress and trauma are different things. And we use that data To paint a picture to campus leadership, to the community members of what has the experience been, what can we use data to inform practices and principles. And And it really was a catalyst to all of us on campus of we need to care for people that are serving our students. So there's some really interesting mitigating factors that we found as well and and other risk factors that I could dive into if it's interesting. But this first element was just identifying awareness around the problem. Adam Jussel [00:07:06]: What are the issues we're facing, and what are those challenges? I Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:08]: think that would be great if you can talk more about what are those mitigating and aggravating factors for predictors of stress. Adam Jussel [00:07:15]: Yeah. And don't let me go down a rabbit hole on on this too much, but the risk factors so being a caregiver was a risk factor for a positive post traumatic stress disorder screen. Caregiver is broader than just parent or guardian. So we have staff and faculty that have, obviously, their parents or guardians, but we also have staff and faculty that Have a loved one in their home that they're they're caring for, so caregiving was a risk factor. Social isolation, all of us experienced Some level of social isolation in the pandemic. And one of the tragedies of the pandemic, and other folks have said this in various different ways, is that It attacks the number 1 mitigator for trauma experiencing trauma, which is a strong social support network. And not having that mechanism at place, I think a lot of us experience, at least it's born out in our data, that that social isolation was a really a key factor for exacerbating stress and possibly trauma. The other thing that, was interesting was The uncertainty of the future. Adam Jussel [00:08:08]: When we've provided some trauma informed care workshops to students, 1 student stood out to me and said, if I knew that this would end on a certain date, If I could if you could tell me 6 months from now, pandemic over, pick a date, December, whatever, the students said I could bear that. I could understand that there's a finish line. I could Stack goals around that, but the uncertainty and kind of the wave of uncertainty was an exacerbating factor and a risk factor. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:31]: So I've been working in China for the last 2 years or so. And that was a real thing here because the pandemic controls and mechanisms that we all face were very different than what was happening in the west. And then our students and our faculty and staff were going through 3 to 7 COVID tests, a week depending on what was going on. And then, you know, there were points where our faculty and staff were locked on the campus with our students and didn't leave for 2 or 3 months. And that environment is the exact Same messaging where, you know, if we knew that, you know, we had to do this for 60 days, we could mark our time. We could set goals. We could mentally prepare for what that's like. But when that endpoint doesn't exist. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:11]: It really creates a sense of dread and a little bit of doom. Adam Jussel [00:09:15]: Yeah. Your experience, I appreciate you sharing that is A ton of follow-up questions, of course, of of that experience as it relates to this. But one thing I heard there was, hey. The tools that we have at our disposal to mitigate this might diminished, which is I can't see family and friends. I can't go for a walk outside. Maybe there are instances where that was possible, maybe not, but I can't go to the gym. I can't you know, there's all kinds of things that were eliminated by virtue of the pandemic, and it sounds like not so dissimilar in in your experience, but probably very dissimilar very, December at the same time. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:49]: Well, and to be fair, I was not one of the team members that was on campus in the lockdown, but my staff was. I mean, that's because I I wasn't here yet during kind of that deepest period of time. But I hear from a lot of them too that, you know, it was just things like, I would really love a piece of fresh fruit, And that would that simple piece of health care would have been really, really mitigating for them. So I'd love to hear more about what those mitigating factors were. Adam Jussel [00:10:14]: Thanks for sharing that and asking. So the mitigating factors I already named one was the strong social support network. On the network of care, feeling like there are places and People you can turn to for help and support that you're not alone. Really big factors when someone is experiencing trauma or stress. Time outside, So being outside in nature and time with pets was significant. I would say time outside with pets is probably doubly good, but those were some massive Mitigating factors at least at a high level, and then you can dive in further in the research and literature and being physically active, having a purpose in life, Which really connects to the additional research we're doing currently, which is just having a meaningful experience in your work environment, What we call making meaning, does that is that a mitigator to stress and trauma? There's all kinds of research on the value of having a vision and a purpose, An identity bigger than yourself, and we're trying to connect it to the trauma field a little bit. And we're using a mixed method study to do that, and it's It's really fascinating what people are saying in our focus groups, and that's exciting work that I can talk about as well if you'd like me to. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:18]: Someone asked a question about your research design, especially for any of our listeners who are pursuing their own Dr.ates. This is a time where you're trying to measure trauma and stress where the pandemic was not the only trauma and stressor serve for a US audience. It was a a wild time to be a person in the United States from Adam Jussel [00:11:34]: Yes. Yep. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:36]: Regardless of where you are on Any particular political spectrum, that was a wild time. It kinda still is a wild time. I just I don't feel it as much because I'm not there on a daily basis right now. But how did you tease apart as researchers the difference between the impact from COVID nineteen and the other influencing factors in the world? Adam Jussel [00:11:55]: Yeah. In the study, we know that the political and civic strife that was being experienced by a lot of folks in the United States, regardless of what political affiliation that a person had actually were exacerbating factors as it related to trauma and stresses really in the pandemic. And the way that we separated out in the in the studies, we actually, you know, Segmented out of the questions, and then we're very specific about the questions that we asked that were related to the pandemic versus the questions we had about Ancillary things, including that civic and political strike. But we do note in there that other factors were definitely at play, and and we know this just from our personal experiences that You can't really isolate an individual and say, well, what about this is one thing that is stressor? We we are meaning making machines that come in, and we bring our holistic experience. And reflected in our data too is that folks that had other health and financial stressors, other you know, I already said financial stressors, but That there were certain instances that no combination of mitigating factors could protect them against the negative implications of the pandemic, Which means that sometimes for the individuals that participated in the study, it was just too much, and there was nothing that they could have done without intense professional care. I can't. And this is something we're very careful about. I could tell someone to go walk their dog 6,000 times, and if they have experienced a level of stress and potentially trauma, though, those Tools, at least in our data, weren't weren't helpful. Adam Jussel [00:13:18]: So, yes, it's good to acknowledge the context in which we participated in the study. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:22]: Well, and sometimes not just Not helpful to suggest some of these more surface level components of care, but also could be seen as Literally uncaring as a leader of an organization or not just seen as, but could be literally uncaring because there's a big difference between, you know, the collective stress and collective trauma we were all going through that was abnormal from our daily lives compared with people that already had their plates very, very full. And then at that Age old meme where it's like, oh, you're experiencing a difficult work environment? Well, let's have a pizza party. That's not what we need to solve of some of these big issues. And one of the things that I appreciate about your work, as I mentioned, is that this kind of all resulted from a practice perspective in a trauma informed toolkit. So let's talk about that a little bit because I know that's really geared towards a lot of student work, but it applies deeply to your faculty and staff populations as well. So how did you operationalize the findings of the study to try to create more community care. Adam Jussel [00:14:23]: One of the cool parts about participating in this, and I this is the 1st article that I've ever been. For those who don't know, I have a JD. You do not have to produce Research as part of your JD. Some people do. So it's the 1st academic study I've been I've been a part of, which was really exciting. And one thing that I really, with My colleagues tried to focus on is we can't wait till this is published to produce and care for our campus community because as You know publishing takes a long time, so the trauma informed care toolkit and related workshops were created actually prior to us Publishing anything and actually diving into our research because the trauma informed care principles, at least as we saw it, were somewhat evergreen. There's things that we could do to make that a reality. And then once we published our research, we use that to inform our workshops and continue to hone those toolkits. Adam Jussel [00:15:13]: So the real bellwether or the real, I would say, the workshops themselves were the 1st program we really rolled out, and those were geared towards Faculty and staff. They were trying to do 2 different things. They were first trying to say, here's our students' experience, and here's how you care for those students. And, also, what we realized midstream is, oh, this is cathartic for the faculty and staff that are coming into this face as well because they're feeling validated by their experience. They're feeling empowered, and they're feeling like they're connected to other people. This is this kind of shared social experience. And teams were totally volunteer. We just put them in, like, newsletters and said, hey, folks. Adam Jussel [00:15:50]: If you're interested in this and in the year and a half that we launched, From when we launched there, when we concluded them, we did over a 150 of these across campus. And for someone that does mandatory training of folks Here on our campus, doing a 150 workshops is intense over a year and a half, but it also reflected the kind of scope and scale of the problem because I'm getting that level of interest in a voluntary program that's not being forced upon anybody. We had to chase that. There was something there. And the toolkits themselves were really about building capacity across campus understanding that I'm not an expert on the classroom dynamics in a faculty member's classroom, but I can give the the parameters Or how would you make your classroom trauma informed? And I hesitate to even say trauma informed because that's somewhat cliche at this point in time, and I think it's got some it might carry some baggage for folks. Oh, really, what it is is how do I create a classroom that's reciprocal and empowering and caring? So those toolkits are we're actually in another revision of them right now, but those toolkits in the workshop are based in Principles that even if we didn't have a pandemic would be good exercises and practices for folks in their workplace and that and the classroom. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:57]: Let's define trauma informed in this case. As you mentioned, it is kind of a buzzword in higher education at this point, and, some people operationalize it differently. How are you using the term? Adam Jussel [00:17:08]: Definition of trauma that we use is adopted by the Substance Abuse Mental Health Services association. And it's an event or series events that is experienced by an individual as physically or emotionally harmful or life Threatening with lasting adverse effects on the individual's functioning and mental, physical, social, emotional, or spiritual well-being. And the reason we like this definition is that it's it's more holistic than other definitions offered. It it talks about the entirety of the person's experience, But it also distinguishes between physical trauma, so someone that is experiencing physical harm or witnessing physical harm versus The impacts of something that may be systemic and long term like the pandemic. So there's other definitions of trauma that really focus on An acute single incident like a type one trauma. This broader definition from SAMHSA is broader and would take into context things that just happen over time, little cuts that happen over time. So trauma informed care takes that into consideration and asks the question, what do we how do we frame our workplace and our classroom In a way that acknowledges that someone may be experiencing in that space a significant amount of trauma or stress. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:19]: And looking at all of this, You've gone through the research process. You've gone through the workshop process. You're now in revisions. What's the pro tip that you can provide. What's the nugget for SA pros who are listening and going, oh, my campus needs this, or especially The other SSAOs going, how do I adopt this and and make it meaningful for my campus? Adam Jussel [00:18:40]: 1st, I would say the pro tip is Understand that you're seen and that this work is valuable in the sense that it lets folks know that, hey. These jobs are challenging. Anybody in the field that is aware of how they experience the pandemic and the work that they were doing, that this highlights that and actually paints a picture that allows for a certain level of advocacy on your campus. So I think Pointing to it and saying, hey. And I know there's a bunch of data now that reflects this, but this isn't just my feelings. This is actually an experience that is validated by by research. That's my I guess, more of an academic response. My gut response is any parts of this work can be applied to any campus. Adam Jussel [00:19:20]: And one thing that we've really learned, the framework we've applied is this campus cares framework, which is a fancy term for a program here on campus that's Grassroots, it's voluntary, but it is holistic. So instead of thinking about how do we just care for the students, how How do we make sure they have adequate resources, that they have counseling, that they have food pantry, that they have case management, that they have an emergency grant? This takes into consideration the first thing I said at the beginning, which is we can't do those things well unless we are part of that ecosystem. System. And so this campus CARES work has students, faculty, and staff from across campus. It's not a top down directive, so it's not something that we got From senior leadership that would just kind of just groundswell during the pandemic. It's that heart I was telling you about. And so my nugget here is that find the people on your campus, Students, faculty, and staff that embody this type of work, this type of care, put them in a room together and say, what does it mean to care for our campus, How do we do that? And it might mean something different to y'all, but it would likely mean something different to y'all than it does to us. But we did that in the early stages of this campus Cares framework. Adam Jussel [00:20:25]: We got a bunch of people in the room, and they said, what does it mean to be empathetic and caring in the face of a global pandemic? And all of the tools that we got out of it, the tool kits And the the workshops and the meditation spaces that we have on campus and the communications and storytelling are all grounded in that empathy, Empowerment and care, and I think that can be applied anywhere. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:46]: How has all of this effort changed your campus? Adam Jussel [00:20:49]: I can speak, and, obviously, I'm biased here, but I think it has elevated the experience of folks that would be considered either frontline or mid level staff to campus leadership in the community. So not to say that anybody had negative opinions of the campus prior to The pandemic. But I don't think they were generally aware of the level of stress that folks were experiencing in the pandemic and had experienced prior to the For me, personally, it has connected me directly, and I think connected everybody within the Campus Cares group to the extent that I can speak for all of them with those people that genuinely care about UWM and its students. And when you put that type of energy into a space, I think it catalyzes a lot of change and good, but also just makes me feel personally like I enjoy going to parts of work that I'm doing that because it's a bunch of people that are on the same team, so to speak. So I think it's changed, and we are really focused now on how do we keep this momentum going? How do we now that we're in this late in stages of the pandemic, and how do we scale this culture of care across campus. So that's the tougher problem, and I don't actually think we ever accomplished that. I think that's a thing that we will continue to do forever, but we've had some great conversations about what that actually means while we're doing this other practical work. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:05]: The scaling question is always interesting when you're at such a large institution. Right? When you're at a small liberal arts university, the scaling question is as much simpler just because there are physically less people. But the common core of an institution, like in our one size, that's a very, very different beast. Adam Jussel [00:22:22]: Yeah. One of the things that I value professionally is just kind of meeting the hard challenges of doing it with kind of an open mind and curiosity, and This has definitely opened my aperture quite a bit on how we can do that and how big the issues are, and that is not just a checkbox. You can't just flip a giant switch somewhere and say, okay. Now we're good. So this will be something that will continue on, I think, hopefully, for a good long while here at UWM and at other places. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:46]: I'm gonna shift gears with you just a moment because we are in our bonus episode in between seasons 9 and 10, both of which are on the theme of transitions. So So I just briefly wanna touch on how does someone go from obtaining a law degree to being in student affairs full time? Adam Jussel [00:23:01]: It's a common question that I get. And the real answer is is that I cut my teeth in university housing. I was an RA for 3 years in college. And when I was leaving college and I decided to go to law school. I actually picked my law school, Seattle University, in part because I was fortunate To have the opportunity to work in housing, university housing while I was in law school, which on its face for anybody that's gone to law school, it's how do you go to law school and work in a residence all at the same time. I actually think it helped me quite a bit because, one, it created so much more structure around my life. And 2, it was people outside of the law school that I connected with, and I'm still colleagues and friends with. They really didn't care what I was doing in the law school. Adam Jussel [00:23:43]: They cared about me as a human, and So remove kind of that that stressor. They were great friends and kind of a mitigator distress. And when I left law school, I had this existential crisis of, I'm still liking this housing stuff. I'm still learning a lot, and I went and took the bar, and I thought, well, I guess I go practice law now. Right? I I worked at a firm for a while, and then I actually made the transition to the attorney general's office, which was represented all the institutions of higher education in the state of Washington and was an assistant attorney general actually representing Washington State University. I did that for a couple years, and I was still having that kind of, I wanna be on the other side. I Wanna be in the administration. The kind of natural inroad for a lot of people at that point in time with a JD was into the conduct space. Adam Jussel [00:24:26]: So I made the big move over the administration and did student conduct for what feels like an eternity, but it was 7, 8 years over at WSU and then since made this transition over here, and and I couldn't be more. I tell this to people all the time, and maybe it's my experience my previous experience is that while these jobs are stressful and They're very challenging, and I'm faced with challenges every day. The fact that I get to work on a college campus still is like I, like, pinch myself. Just the fact that I could walk onto our mall in the middle of a busy weekday and just be amongst 18, 19, 20 year olds and UWM students. It's just a it's a blessing. So that's how I made that transition. It's a long story, but I'm fortunate to have all those opportunities and people nudging me to do that along the way. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:08]: Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate the complexity of that, but also the simplicity of I was an RA first. That seems to be such, you know, a common student affairs journey. Adam Jussel [00:25:17]: I like to tell folks, I think once you do the ResLifer thing, you're a ResLifer at heart for a long time, and I don't think I've ever turned away from that. So that's my origin story as it were. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:27]: Is there anything else that you wanna share with our listeners? Adam Jussel [00:25:30]: I know I mentioned earlier the the the concept of meaning of work and and potentially how That could be a mitigator to, stress and and perhaps trauma. And really wanna note that our focus groups that we did in the spring, we did 4 of them. They were meant to expand on the initial survey instrument I noted earlier, building on that quantitative research And now using qualitative research in a mixed method study and sequentially and hopefully explanatory, we wanted to determine what factors and processes Would promote increased meaning of work, noting that the positive effects we saw through that could have helped with stress. There's a bevy of research out there about the positive impacts of having a a vision or a larger mission, but also want to explore how could that potentially decrease stress or at least be a protective factor. What we've just anecdotally, what we've seen so far is that the the work is hard and people really identify with that, and I've explained the statistics that are relating to that. But when it's Directly connected to a larger purpose or mission or community, it could be more motivating and, in fact, meaningful. And What we've also found is that the focus on the well-being of others, which is a core element of the campus cares initiative I mentioned, that can bring satisfaction in and out of work. And maybe This isn't particularly novel, but can actually reduce stress for folks as having that broader connection and that broader sense of purpose. Adam Jussel [00:26:55]: So I think that we'd be remiss without sharing that there is additional research being done there and and hopefully continue to imbue that work Within the campus cares initiative that we have on campus. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:06]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:12]: Thanks, Jill. Really excited to be back again in the NASPA world, and there's a lot happening in NASPA. The NASPA annual conference is coming up March 9th through 13th in Seattle, Washington, and I hope that you will be able to join us. If you are going to join us, I know that we've mentioned this before, but we'll be going around asking questions, looking for your answers to have your voice be a part of a future episode. So watch out for me with my recorder or Jill with her recorder, and we'll be looking to capture your voice. At the NASPA annual conference, the opening and closing keynote speakers have just been announced recently. Dr. Sian Proctor and Alejandra Campa Verdi will be joining as opening and keynote speakers. The opening keynote is Dr. Sion Proctor Who is a geoscientist, explorer, space artist, and astronaut. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:08]: Dr. Sian Proctor is a geoscience professor at the Maricopa Community Colleges, An Afrofuturism artist and an astronaut. She is the chief inspiration astronaut of Space to Inspire and founder of the Procter Foundation For Art and Science. She was the mission pilot for SpaceX inspiration for the first all civilian Orbital mission. And our closing keynote speaker is Alejandra Campaverde. Alejandra Campaverde is a nationally recognized women's Health advocate, best selling author, founder, producer, and former White House aid to president Obama. Alejandra's memoir, First Gen, Examines the emotional toll of social mobility on first and only for those who are first generation in their families to cross a threshold. On February 2, 2024, on Zoom will be the 7th annual 1st generation graduate student symposium. Join the Boston University Newberry Center, Duke University first generation graduate student network, and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Carolina grad students grad student firsts, along with our cooperating sponsor, the Center For First Generation Student Success, For our 7th annual symposium for graduate and professional students on February 2, 2024. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:28]: This national symposium is open to any student who identifies as a 1st generation graduate or professional student and is studying any discipline. The keynote speaker for this event is Angela Bautista, A proud 1st generation student learner, educator, speaker, facilitator, coach, and diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging consultant. There's There's also gonna be a number of opportunities for you to network with other 1st generation graduate and professional students at institutions across the country, workshop sessions, and more. The event is on February 2nd and runs from from 1 EST to 5 PM EST. From June 23rd to 26 in Portland, Oregon Will be the 2024 NASPA m Ben Hogan Small Colleges and Universities Institute. This event is hosted on a biannual basis by By NASPA's Small Colleges and Universities division, the NASPA M. Ben Hogan Small Colleges and University Institute is a 4 day residential program During which vice presidents for student affairs and the equivalent and other senior level administrators engage in discussion and reflection about critical issues in student affairs and examine effective and innovative programs. Participation in this institute is limited to the highest Ranking student affairs officer on campus and other senior level administrators who report to the highest ranking student affairs officer and have substantial responsibility for divisional leadership. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:52]: The registration fee for this program includes housing and most meals and is an amazing experience To bring you together with other small colleges and university leaders. Find out more on the NASPA website. I mentioned the NASPA NASPA annual conference coming up In March, if you are unable to join the NASPA conference, we also have another great opportunity, which is the 2024 virtual conference, which will happen on April 2nd through 5, 2024. The 2024 NASPA virtual Conference is a 4 day interactive educational experience for student affairs professionals and partners where we will engage in high quality content centered around individual and team growth. There will be multiple educational sessions, including 8 extended learning workshops. Teams can participate in their personal and professional development through the live event and on demand. The best part of this is that if you register, All sessions will be available on demand for 365 days. So it's a great opportunity for your teams at your institutions to be able to access professional development over a long period. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:04]: If you haven't checked this out yet, I highly encourage you to go to the NASPA website to check it out, Learn more and find out how you can be involved with your team at your own institution. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within in the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening And allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And For all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers We're at the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself Where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you To be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself In that knowledge community, I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to Think beyond what's available right now to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, Your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:40]: Chris, thank you so much for this bonus NASPA world segment. We've got a lot coming up. I know annual conference is just around the corner at this point in time. We hope to see a lot of you in Seattle. Adam, we are now at our lightning round. I have 7 questions for you in 90 seconds. You ready to go? Adam Jussel [00:33:57]: Okay. Hippie, let's do it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:59]: Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Adam Jussel [00:34:03]: Jitterbug. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:04]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Adam Jussel [00:34:07]: A pilot. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:08]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Adam Jussel [00:34:12]: Ken Wayne. He He was a professor at Seattle University. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:14]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Adam Jussel [00:34:17]: Reframing campus conflict. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:19]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Adam Jussel [00:34:22]: We rewatched parks and rec the entirety of it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:25]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Adam Jussel [00:34:29]: On chair expert. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:30]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? Adam Jussel [00:34:34]: Thanks, Jill, for the great question and for the opportunity to offer some shout outs. Obviously, I'm super grateful for all the people that have supported and influenced me along the way and try to share that gratitude when I can. Starting just With my time at Cal Lutheran and my 1st supervisors in residence life, Sally Lawrenson and Nate Fall, and then Danielle Hess And Adam Malcolm at the AG's office at WSU just taking a chance on me and allowing for that big transition that I noted earlier. And then, of course, my team at at UWM, including Becky Career, Abby Meadow, Ben Minogue, and Sarah Edmonson, even though Sarah has left us for another institution. Just super grateful for team here could not do it without them. And then, obviously, my professional career started at WSU, and I would be remiss without giving a shout out to them, including Karen Fisher, Melinda Husky, Karen Metzner, and Christina McGillfry, and just the entire Dida students team over there. I know they're doing great work. And then finally, just 2 mentors, Bill Stackman and Carrie Petter who answer all my weird questions every once in a while about my own growth in the career, and It's super helpful and just, again, very grateful for all these folks. Adam Jussel [00:35:45]: So shout outs to everybody. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:46]: Well, Adam, it's been a pleasure to reconnect with you today. If others would like to connect with you after the show. How can they find you? Adam Jussel [00:35:52]: You can email me, which is just [email protected], or my Instagram account is at Dean Dob Jessel. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:59]: Adam, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Adam Jussel [00:36:02]: Thank you, Jill. Take care, everybody. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:05]: This has been an episode of SA voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at essay voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill Creighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show, and Please like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill l Creighton., That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this week's episode of SA Voices From the Field, we bring you Dr. Lori White, the 21st president of DePauw University, to share her inspiring journey and valuable insights into higher education leadership. From her early years in student affairs to her groundbreaking role as a college president, Dr. White's story offers a roadmap for aspiring leaders and underscores the importance of mentorship, strategic decision-making, and student-centered leadership. The Path to Presidency Dr. White's journey to the presidency of DePauw University began with her undergraduate work at UC Berkeley, where she discovered her passion for student affairs at the University of California Irvine. This passion led her to a 40-year career in higher education, marked by a progression through various roles in student affairs and prolific authorship. Her commitment to promoting student access, equity, and success later propelled her to the presidency of DePauw University, where she saw an opportunity to shape university policies and influence. The Role of Mentors One key aspect of Dr. White's journey is the pivotal role of mentors in guiding her leadership path. Encouraged by mentors and colleagues to consider applying for a presidency, she was eventually nominated for the position by a fellow woman president. This underscores the profound impact of mentorship in shaping the careers of aspiring leaders and the importance of building a supportive network within the higher education community. The Transition and Challenges Stepping into the role of president amidst the COVID-19 pandemic presented unique challenges for Dr. White. She emphasized the need for immediate decision-making and virtual relationship-building, highlighting the dynamic nature of leadership in higher education and the adaptability required to navigate unforeseen obstacles. Empowering Student Affairs Professionals Dr. White's emphasis on the skills and experiences gained in student affairs sheds light on the breadth of responsibilities, ranging from working with academic affairs to managing business aspects, dealing with crises, engaging with alumni, and contributing to scholarly work and research. This insight demystifies the day-to-day responsibilities of a college president and underscores the scholarly aspects of student affairs professionals. Involving Stakeholders in Decision-Making Dr. White's advocacy for involving professionals at all levels in strategic planning underscores the importance of empowering emerging professionals to offer ideas and participate in decision-making processes. Additionally, her dedication to ensuring that student voices are heard through meaningful engagement with the student body president reflects a commitment to student-centered leadership and the value of seeking input from all stakeholders. NASPA Opportunities The episode also featured valuable updates and opportunities at the upcoming NASPA 2024 conference, including pre-conference events tailored for community college professionals, international student services practitioners, and undergraduate students. The conference aims to support the development of student affairs professionals and offers various short courses on relevant topics. Dr. Lori White's insights from her remarkable journey to the college presidency offer valuable lessons for leaders, emerging professionals, and students alike. Her emphasis on mentorship, strategic decision-making, and student-centered leadership serves as a guiding beacon for those navigating the complex landscape of higher education. Aspiring leaders can draw inspiration from Dr. White's journey, recognizing the transformative power of mentorship and the profound impact of inclusive, student-focused leadership in shaping the future of higher education. By embracing the principles and insights shared by Dr. White, the next generation of leaders can continue to drive positive change and progress within the realm of student affairs and higher education. Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 9 on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your SA voices from the field host. Welcome back to another episode of SA Voices from the Field. This is our season finale of season 9 on transitions in student affairs, and I cannot think of a better human being to help us close out this season than Dr. Lori S. White. Dr. White was appointed the 21st president of DePauw University on March 4, 2020, and began her term on July 1, 2020. Prior, she was the vice chancellor for student affairs and a professor of practice at Washington UNiversity in Saint Louis. At DePauw, she also holds the rank of professor of education, and she's the 1st woman and the first person of color to serve as DePauw's president. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:58]: Dr. White has spent 40 years working in higher education. Prior to her arrival at Washington university. She served as the VP for student affairs and clinical professor of education at Southern Methodist University and also held posts at the University of Southern California, Stanford, Georgetown, San Diego State, and the University of California, Irvine. Active nationally in several higher education organizations, Since Dr. White has served on the board of directors for the Association For Sustainability in Higher Education and for NASPA's Foundation from team to 2017. In 2009, she was named a pillar of the profession by NASPA. She's currently serving on the Association of Governing Boards Council of Presidents and is a member of the Bipartisan and Policy Center's academic leaders task force on campus free expression. Dr. White is one of 5 founding college presidents of the liberal arts colleges racial equity leadership alliance. Dr. White's areas of emphasis in research and teaching include the student experience in higher ed and the preparation of mentorship for new mid-level and aspiring senior student affairs professionals. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:55]: She's the author of a number of articles and book chapters and has presented widely at professional meetings, including NASPA. Her most recent publications appear in a coedited volume called Transformational Encounters, shaping diverse college and university leaders, and another titled Keep Calm and Call the Dean of Students, a guide to understanding the many facets of the Dean of Students' role. Born and raised in San Francisco, Dr. White earned her undergraduate degree in psychology and English from the University of California, Berkeley and a Ph.D. from Stanford University in administration and policy analysis with emphasis on higher education. She also participated in Harvard University's management leadership in education program. Dr. White and her husband, Anthony Tillman, are both career educators with a deep passion and commitment to student access, equity, and success. Lori, we are so excited to have you on SA Voices today. Dr. Lori White [00:02:41]: So excited, Jill. Thank you for the invitation. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:44]: And you've been such a staple of the student affairs profession, a stalwart, or if you will, having been a NASPA board chair, a pillar of the profession, and you've actually kind of left the field, kind of not left the field after many, many years, currently sitting in the seat as president at DePauw University, and we love to start all of our interviews by asking our guests, how did you get to your current seat. Dr. Lori White [00:03:07]: I appreciate you saying that I left the field of student affairs. I don't think anyone really ever leaves the field of student affairs, But I did transition to becoming the President of DePauw University in 2020. And I never imagined that I would be a college president, Jill. And part of the reason, I think, is that it's hard to imagine what you don't see. I identify as an African American, a cisgender female, and there are not that many females who are presidents of colleges and universities. There are not that many African Americans that are Presidents of colleges and universities, and so you can deduce from that there are not that many African American females that are Presidents of colleges and universities. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:52]: No kidding. Not enough people who are marginalized or from marginalized backgrounds in those seats. Dr. Lori White [00:03:56]: I was going to say that it really took mentors who encouraged me to think beyond what I had been doing, and I loved being a Vice President for student affairs and would have been happy to retire as a vice president for student affairs. But as you and I know, sometimes those who mentor us, encourage us to think beyond what we're doing currently and aspire to do something else. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:22]: That's for sure, especially our best mentors. Now, Lori, you had a prolific career up through the vice presidency of student affairs. Would you mind taking us through your journey from a new professional to VPSA? Dr. Lori White [00:04:32]: Sure. I did my undergraduate work at UC Berkeley, and the reason that I'm starting there is I'm now president of a liberal arts college. And I think if I had known that liberal arts colleges existed, that would have been a better fit for me. UC Berkeley gave me a great academic education, but I was lost in a sea of 30,000-plus students, And I never did any of the things that we always advise our students to do. Right? I never went to a faculty member's office hours. I didn't connect with all of the resources that I now know were available to me at UC Berkeley. And so when I graduated With my degree in English and psychology, I really wasn't sure what I was going to do. And it was my dad, who is a professor at the University of California, Irvine, who suggested that I think about working on a college campus. Dr. Lori White [00:05:27]: So perhaps unlike you, Jill, or folks in the generation that followed me, Who, you know, you might have been an orientation leader, or you worked in student activities, and then somebody taps you on the shoulder and said, you can do this for the rest of your life. I didn't have that experience, but it was my dad who said, try this out. I think this will be a great fit for what I know about what you love. And sure enough, I got my 1st job at the University of California Irvine. I fell in love with student affairs once I discovered who those people were, And I saw the work that they were doing to mentor, support, and advise students. And I knew if I'd had somebody like that working with me when I was an undergraduate, my experience would have been different. And so, you know, 40-something years later, I'm still working in higher education, 10 years at UC Irvine, doing a number of things. Probably most impactful was being the director of the cross-cultural center at UC Irvine, One of the very first cross-cultural, multicultural centers in the state, probably in the country. Dr. Lori White [00:06:34]: After that, I went back to graduate school. I quit my full-time job, made the best decision ever in my life, became a full-time graduate student, and got my Ph.D. at Stanford University. And then after that, I've done what, most of my colleagues have done, started moving my way up the student affairs ladder, worked at Georgetown University, At San Diego State University, back at Stanford, also at the University of Southern California, got my 1st vice President's position at Southern Methodist University. I was the VP there for eight years, and then I was the vice president or vice chancellor for student affairs at Washington University in Saint Louis for five years before I became president of DePauw. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:18]: And you're also quite a prolific author. So, if you've Probably read Lori's work, maybe without knowing it, but I think the highlight for me is, keep calm and call the dean of students. That's a critical one. Dr. Lori White [00:07:29]: Yes. I love the title. Love the title. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:32]: Absolutely. Lori, when you and I ran into each other, I think it was Boston for NASPA this last go around. While we were standing there together, I asked you if you love being a President compared to being a VPSA. And I recall you saying to me, it stuck with me: I loved being a VPSA, but I feel called to do the work of being the President. Can you talk to us about that transition from being the person leading the student affairs experience, which is really the, you know, the head experience officer for a university, to be in that position of figurehead, fundraiser, policymaker, influencer? Dr. Lori White [00:08:12]: The first question you asked me was, Why did I decide to be a college president? Dr. Lori White [00:08:19]: And so it aligns with my response to your Question. And you have a great memory because that's exactly what I said. I love being a vice president for student affairs and feel called to serve as a college president. When I visited DePauw University, I was discerning whether I would say yes if I got the job offer. I was in this space on my campus where the portraits of all of the previous presidents hang. I am president number 21. And as I looked around that room, and I saw the portraits of Presidents 1 through 20, none of whom looked like me, Literally, a voice from above said, they're gonna offer you that job. And when they do, you need to say yes. Dr. Lori White [00:09:04]: It's not about you, Lori. It's what you represent for future generations. Future generations need to know that it's possible for somebody who looks like you to be president of DePauw University. And so that is why I felt called to serve. I also realized within my 1st couple of days on the job that even though, as I tell people, I was scared to death on my 1st day of the overwhelming responsibility of being a college president, I sometimes walk out of my office, and I look around, and I think to myself, o m g. I'm responsible for all of this. Right? So, you know, every decision that I make, impacts a student and their experience, impacts our faculty, impacts our employees, impacts our alumni, and sometimes that's an overwhelming responsibility. However, I'm really driven by how important it is for us every day To make sure that our colleges and universities are doing their best to educate students and to make sure that every student that we admit and who agrees to join our wonderful community is able to realize their hopes and their dreams. Dr. Lori White [00:10:14]: And it was my background in student affairs That really, I think, has enabled me to be a successful President. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:21]: I think the most interesting part of being a college president out of the student affairs pathway is that it's still a fairly new transition. Most college presidents come out of that provost space. Some are, you know, business officers at the VP level. But I'm aware of very few VPSAs who've really gone on to that. I'll shout out a few off the top of my head. Dr. Frank Sanchez, who mentored me when I was at CU Denver, and Dr. Robin Holmes Sullivan out at Reed University. She came out of that VPSA ship not that long ago. Then, Dr. Rod Kelly, who also came out of student affairs vice presidency and is now, I believe, the University of Portland. So, the student affairs vice presidency is now, I believe, at the University of Portland. So it's really exciting to see it happening, but I also don't know that student affairs professionals really aspire to that direction. I feel like the VPSA role is the top of that aspirational ladder for a lot of people, and popping the top to the presidency doesn't really feel like it's been on the table or been realistic. Tell us about how you made that realistic for yourself and what made you even wanna apply. Dr. Lori White [00:11:17]: Sure. And thanks for the list of those folks, all great friends of mine. We all grew up together in student affairs. I would also add John Hoffman to that list. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:27]: Yeah. Very new as well. Dr. Lori White [00:11:29]: Right. Exactly. Several others are now getting opportunities because I think Boards are realizing the breadth of skills that student affairs professionals bring to the job. So let's see what led me to decide I wanted to put my baby toe in the water to actually apply for a presidency. I mentioned earlier that I had mentors who were encouraging me to think about a presidency, including my boss at WashU, who was the provost at the time and was the previous chancellor at the University of North Carolina. I also remember I had given a speech for NASPA, And after I left the stage, Mike Sagawa, who is also one of my longtime mentors, said to me, Lori, you just need to be a college president. And there were other voices, you know, in the field and otherwise, who were encouraging me to move forward. I happened to be on a panel with 2 other women, both of whom were college presidents. Dr. Lori White [00:12:33]: Following that panel discussion, the call came out for the presidency of DePauw, And one of those women nominated me for the job. I don't know if I hadn't received the nomination if I would've thought about applying for the position. But once the search firm reached out to me and I understood I'd been nominated by a woman who was a president, I thought to myself, I'm hearing these voices. Another President nominated me. You know, what's the worst that can happen to me? I always say to folks that when you apply for those jobs, the worst that can happen is you lose your time and your ego. Right? Because, you know, your time just in terms of, the time it takes to prepare the materials and your ego if you ultimately don't get the job. Right? And so I tell people, Jill, that I applied for the job for practice. I thought to myself, let me prepare my materials. Dr. Lori White [00:13:26]: Let me see what kind of feedback I get. And then, when I'm ready, I will know what I need to work on for me to be ready for that next step. I never imagined I was actually going to get the job, which I think speaks to women. And often, people of color undervalue and underestimate the skills that we have. Right? So, you know, somebody Might see a job description, and let's say there are ten things that are required. And I would say, and most women would say, and many people of color would say, well, I only have 9 out of the 10. So until I get all 10, I'm not applying. Someone else would say, oh, I've got 3 of those things. Oh, yeah. Dr. Lori White [00:14:07]: I'm going for, and so, you know, I was in that group of folks thinking that I didn't have enough experience or because I wasn't an academic, Etcetera. And so, as I said, I never imagined I would get the job. But I learned, Jill, that those of us who come up through Student affairs have mad skills. Right? We, first of all, are one of the few people on the president's cabinet who have to look at the entire university. Right? Because in our roles, we work with academic affairs. We obviously, you know, work with all the areas of student affairs. Most of us run some level of business because we're running auxiliaries, residence halls, Bookstores, and student unions. We have to deal with campus crises. Dr. Lori White [00:14:54]: Often, we are raising money and if we're not raising money. We are interacting with our alumni and others who, because of their experiences Inside and outside of the classroom, are more interested then in giving back to the university, and we deal with oftentimes complicated divisions and organizations. And so, I didn't really understand how all of that would play into Being a college president, but as I went through the interview process, I was able to articulate all of the work that I had done on behalf of the university In order for the board to see me in that role as their president. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:36]: I want everyone to rewind, like, 1 minute and listen to Lori Rattle off that list again because she just helped you rewrite your cover letter right there. Dr. Lori White [00:15:47]: That's wonderful. That's exactly it. Right? We also teach and write and do research. And so for those who believe that only a pure academic can be a college president, Again, in student affairs, most of us are active scholar-practitioners. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:02]: Absolutely. It's kind of a wild thing to think about about a career in higher education. And I think that many of my colleagues still couldn't really tell you what a president does on a day-to-day basis. I'm wondering if you can demystify that a little bit. Dr. Lori White [00:16:16]: I would love to know the answer to that myself. Right? What do we do on a daily basis? The most important part of the job of a president is this. Number one is working with your board, and that's probably something that most folks Looking outside of the presidency don't realize, so I spend a lot of time working with my board, particularly at a Private university, my board or my chief fundraisers. And so making sure that those individuals that are on my board, Who are volunteering on behalf of the university, are in the know about what's happening on campus, are excited such that they want to be able to continue To contribute their treasures, and can advise me about all of the complicated pieces of running, you know, a multimillion-dollar company. And so spend a lot of time working with the board. Spend a lot of time on fundraising because, again, as a private independent college, we're not getting any money from the state. And so lots of presidents like me were on the road a lot, out there, interacting with our alumni and Friends, sharing the good news about what's happening on campus, and so I spend a lot of time, particularly once we got out of the pandemic, Spend a lot of time out on the road. Also spend time supporting my vice president. Dr. Lori White [00:17:41]: So, you know, I went from a vice president To now having a number of vice presidents who are working for me, and I wanna make sure that my vice presidents have what it is that they need In order to effectively run their divisions on campus. And then probably, lastly, and most importantly, again, for a small college we spend 247 every day talking about admissions. Because, you know, I'm unable to deliver a class of students, we can't pay our bills. And so we spend a lot of time strategically thinking about What it is that we need to do to present ourselves to this really competitive market of prospective students such that they will be excited About applying for DePauw and excited about accepting our offer of admission. So those are probably the high-level things that I do, and then, of course, all of us Have all the administrative work that comes with any high-level job that you might have. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:42]: I think it's really important for listeners to hear the president has a boss, but it's not a single boss. It's a group of people. Dr. Lori White [00:18:48]: It's a group of bosses. Right. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:49]: Group of bosses. Lori, can you talk about the transition mindset that you had to go through and make for yourself from the day that you took off your vice president of student affairs hat and put on your president hat. Dr. Lori White [00:19:00]: I had an unusual entry into the job because remember, I was selected as DePauw's president in March of 2020. So I came to campus the 1st week of March for all of the hoopla of the announcement, Which was very exciting. And then, a week later, the entire world turned upside down. So right away, I had to make, really important decisions that affected the future of our institution. So I went from thinking about presidential 1st year as a Meet and greet to a presidential 1st year of deciding, do I open the university or not? If we open the university, how many students Will we invite back to campus? Are we gonna require vaccinations? All of those parts and pieces I had to do as a brand new president or All of those decisions I had to make right away as a brand new president and get to know my community virtually. So, again, none of that is What most new presidents do when you go on that listening tour. I had to do the listening tour, but I had to do it all virtually. And the board asked me to deliver a strategic plan right away, and again, I had to figure out a way to do that on a campus where I didn't have any preexisting relationships. Dr. Lori White [00:20:19]: Do that within my 1st year and, again, do that all virtually. So, it was a very different kind of first and 2nd year as a president than I had imagined. And, again, I think my student affairs experiences really served me well because I knew how to relationship build. I knew how to manage in a crisis, though none of us knew how to manage this level of crisis, but I knew What is required in order to respond to, you know, ever-changing rules and policies, and have to make, those kinds of of really important decisions, at least I felt like I'd had some experience doing that. I obviously had some strategic planning experience, and so had to focus on how to figure out how to translate That experience that I had used in strategic planning for a division for an entire campus. And I think the other thing we're good doing in student affairs is keeping people's spirits up and being ever optimistic regardless of the challenge in front of us. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:25]: Now thinking about all those VPSAs who might be listening today, what would you like to tell them about their applications for presidencies? Dr. Lori White [00:21:33]: I know several of them will probably call me, which is fine, or reach out to me about navigating the presidential search process, and I'm more than happy to do that. And what I always say to folks is we need good leaders. We need good presidential leaders and, you know, anyone in student affairs Who thinks they might want to be a college president, I would support and encourage that. And with this caveat, I always tell people, It's not the title. It's the job. And so you have to decide you want to do the work of being a college president, not just be excited by the fancy title. The work is really hard. It's even harder than being a vice president for student affairs. Dr. Lori White [00:22:13]: As I said, when I walk out of my door, I realize and recognize I have responsibility for everything at the university, not just some slice of it, and you have to be you're a public figure. Every day, somebody's mad at me for something. Right. At least in student affairs, a person might be mad at me, but most people liked me. You know, in this job, every day, there's somebody who's with the president about something, a decision that you've made, a communication that you have offered or not offered, a program that you've had to sunset, Whatever that might be, somebody's always upset with you, and so you have to be driven by what you think is the long term mission and focus of the institution and feel like every day you're making progress toward that. And if you feel like you can do that, Then you can be excited about the work. If being liked 100% of the time or, you know, feeling that you're are always gonna have all the answers, if that's Something that is most important to you, this is not the job. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:12]: Totally fair. And the person who might be mad at you may not even be at your institution, depending on what kind of presidency. Dr. Lori White [00:23:19]: Or an alum who is not excited about what the alum seeds as a change in the direction of the institution. And for those of us who love places that we have been a part of, Change is hard. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:32]: For sure. Let's flip that question a little bit. Now that you're sitting in the presidency seat, has that transitioned your mindset at all on the role of the VPSA? Dr. Lori White [00:23:39]: You know, it's such a great question, Jill, because I have a great vice president for student affairs, Dr. John Mark Day. And he and I laugh frequently because sometimes when we're in conversation and we're talking about students or student issues, I look at him and I say, you know what? I said, I'm not to where I'm responding with my president hat on, or I used to be a vice president of student affairs hat on. And so, of all of the people on my cabinet, I really wanna make sure that I am not getting in the lane of the vice president for student affairs just because I used to do that job. And I think the vice president for student affairs also appreciates a president who used to do that job and really understands, you know, all of the critical issues that he is wrestling with every day. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:28]: We've talked a lot about the BPSA, but I also wanna talk about that 1st-year professional who is very far away from the presidency in terms of hierarchy in an organization and who is deeply affected by presidential decisions but maybe doesn't always understand them, or get to be in the rooms where a rationale for those decisions are being shared. What can you say to our entry and mid-level professionals who might be confused or set about a presidential decision or who might go? I don't understand why we're doing it this way. Dr. Lori White [00:24:55]: I appreciate that question also, Jill. Certainly, I have gotten that a lot. We had to make some really tough decisions in the spring that affected some particular student populations, and I think Emerging professionals and students were not completely understanding of the reasoning for making those decisions. Part of that, I wanna own because I think we could have done a better job of articulating the why. And, to your point, you know, when I was a younger professional, I was just focused on a particular area that I was responsible for, and I never really thought about the big university as a whole. And so what I would encourage, you know, new and emerging professionals is, as a president, I have to make decisions that affect the university not only tomorrow, but for the next 186 years; we're 186 years old. So, you know, the ramifications of any decision that I make have to stand the university well through the course of its next generation. And I think often Younger and emerging professionals aren't able to see that bigger picture. Dr. Lori White [00:26:01]: And so what I would encourage them to do is make sure that they're interacting team with their directors, interacting with their associate vice presidents, and the vice president to educate themselves About, you know, what is the larger context, for any decisions that a president might make, and are there ways in which That emerging or younger professional can give what is probably really valuable feedback, about those big decisions that the president is considering. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:29]: Our emerging professionals are often the ones who are closest to our students as well. They hear the students most clearly and often are closest in age to our students, so they can truly stand the challenges facing our students better than a senior administrator can. With that in mind, how can or how should an emerging professional or new professional share what they know upward? Dr. Lori White [00:26:51]: I think it depends on the place. So, you know, I and what I mean about that is, you know, at a big, Complicated university. It is unlikely that an emerging professional is gonna be able to directly email the president. Right? And so, in those places, it's most important to go up the chain of, you know, I'm trying to think of another word for the chain of command, but the organizational structure. Right. So, you know, sharing that with your director, your director, in turn, shares that with their AVP, and the AVP, in turn, shares that with the VP, who then can share that with the president. You know, at a small place, I'm pretty accessible. And so while I it would not be politically kosher Or, you know, emerging professional to jump over all those hoops and come directly to me with something they hadn't shared with their vice president. Dr. Lori White [00:27:42]: People also know that I'm a very accessible president. My email, you know, is open to everybody on campus. People don't hesitate to reach out to me, and so I certainly would encourage somebody on my campus, certainly, if there's something they wanted to share with me To do so, but I would want them to copy in the people for whom they work so that those folks aren't blindsided. I also think, you know, as leaders, One of the things I'm really proud that I did and I need to do more of is that when I created our strategic planning teams when I first arrived, I said I want people at all levels of the organization to participate, not just the usual suspects and not just the people, who are at the highest level of the organizational chart because I know, that there are great ideas throughout the organization, and I wanted to empower Those younger folks to feel like they could offer their ideas and participate. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:36]: That's wonderful to hear that the strategic planning is considering all levels. I know that not all organizations do that, but it's a true example of giving voice to all professionals. Really appreciate it. Dr. Lori White [00:28:47]: Right. I think that I think that's important. I think we need to do a better job of how we can best involve our students. And I think, you know, whenever I talk with students, I say to them, tell me, You know, what is the most effective way for us to hear your voice? Because, you know, we will often hear when we make a decision, well, students weren't informed, They weren't consulted, and sometimes we have informed and consulted, and sometimes we haven't done a really good job of doing that. And sometimes, we may have done that, but not with the right student population. So I think continued interactions with our students about the best way for us to make sure their voices are heard is important. As a matter of fact, tomorrow, I have a meeting with our student body president. I realized that somehow, in the midst of the pandemic, That regular meeting between the president and the student body president had fallen off of my schedule, and I know how important that So I'm excited that we are able to make sure that that's happening. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:44]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:50]: Thanks so much, Joe. Excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there are so many things that are happening in our association I'm excited to share with you today. The NASPA 2024 conference is going to be here before we know it, March 9th through 13th in Seattle, Washington. And there's been a lot of updates, a lot of things that are Coming down the pipeline that you need to be thinking about if you are planning to attend registration, need to jump into housing. There are a lot of things to consider, but there are also some great pre-conference opportunities that are going to be at the conference as well. So not only are there going to be amazing sessions during the regular sessions of the conference itself, but if you come a little bit early, You can take advantage of the learning at a number of really great pre-conferences that are always Providing high-level quality information that is going to help you in many different ways. A couple of the pre-conference highlights that I would throw out there: the 2024 NASPA Community College Institute, or CCI, is a uniquely tailored experience for community college professionals. This exclusive event accelerates your development, fosters collaboration, and provides insight to reshape program organization and student support services for enhanced student success. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:14]: The 2024 NASPA International Symposium. The symposium fosters global dialogue on student affairs, aiming to broaden perspectives and forge connections across borders. Aligned with NASPA's commitment to global readiness, the symposium benefits those in international student services and practitioners seeking to enhance Global competency. The 2024 NASPA undergraduate student conference. This conference provides a firsthand learning opportunity for undergraduate students To gain knowledge and understanding of student affairs work, awareness, and professional associations, opportunities for networking, and resources To assist in defining their career trajectory in student affairs. Highly encourage you to go to the conference website, Check it out for yourself see all the opportunities that are available, and sign up now before the preconference session that you want to go to is full. The 2024 NASPA Mid-Level Administrators Conference is coming up June 13th through 15th in Indianapolis, Indiana. This conference is a dynamic professional development event designed to provide mid-level student affairs professionals with the opportunity to engage and learn with colleagues and student affairs administrators. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:30]: Participants will gain insight from promising practices and personal reflections to develop their professional competencies, networking, and supervisory skills further and acquire new skills and strategies to improve their professional practice. The mid-level administrator's conference is designed for those student affairs professionals who Serve in roles between but not including entry-level positions and AVP and the equivalent roles. Additionally, professionals who have been serving in entry-level roles for at least 5 years are welcome to attend. You have until March 29, 2024, to get in under the early bird registration, so you still have a little bit of time, but I encourage you to do this now and jump in on this great learning opportunity. There are a couple of great NASPA short courses that are available that are starting in January of 2024 that I wanted to make sure that you were aware of. The first goes from January 21st through February 24th, and that is on student affairs at Small colleges and universities. In this course, you can explore challenges and opportunities at small colleges, and this is for leaders, traders, and faculty who serve at institutions with under 5,000 students. The 2nd short course is Title IX Certificate in Winter 24. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:48]: Now, while the new Title IX rules are finalized, compliance with current rules is crucial. This course offers rule-specific training, including an updated module on proposed rules and recent court decisions. The course actually runs from January 22nd through February 23rd. And finally, the last short course I'll mention today is Assessment by Design, which applies systems thinking to inform assessment practice. Now this course shifts the focus from measuring outcomes to evaluating design. Embrace a systems approach to student affairs assessment, Reflecting on the purpose, challenges, and value of defining the work design. All of these and more are available on the NASPA website. When you go to the NASPA website, go to the NASPA online learning community for additional live and on-demand offerings. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:40]: Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you Up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. As you're doing that, it's important to identify where you fit for yourself. Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you and allow you to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to say, hey. I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that or encouraging you in other ways that allow for you to be able to Think beyond what's available right now to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts and your talents To the association and to all of the members within the association because through doing that, all of us are stronger and The association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:05]: Chris, we really appreciate you putting together these NASPA world segments all season. That one is our final NASPA world segment for this season 9. So, Lori, you are now our final lightning round for season 9 as well. I've got seven questions for you in about 90 seconds. Are you ready to roll? Dr. Lori White [00:36:22]: Ready to roll. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:23]: Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, What would your entrance music be? Dr. Lori White [00:36:29]: Something from Earth, Wind, and Fire celebration. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:32]: Oh, that's a good one. Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up? Dr. Lori White [00:36:37]: I wanted to be a scientist. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:39]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Dr. Lori White [00:36:40]: Dr. Condoleezza Rice. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:42]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Dr. Lori White [00:36:47]: Call the Dean of Students. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:50]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Dr. Lori White [00:36:53]: SUV. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:55]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Dr. Lori White [00:36:57]: Yours. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:59]: And finally, number 7, any shout-outs you'd like to give, personal or professional. Dr. Lori White [00:37:04]: Oh, shout-outs to all of my peeps in student affairs. Can't wait to see all of you at the Seattle conference, and I'll be holding office hours in the bar per usual. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:15]: Lori, we are so grateful that you were willing to give us your time. We know how busy you are in the presidency role. I know your advice today has been incredible, not only for me, but for all of our listeners. If folks would like to get a hold of you and they're not gonna be in Seattle, how can they find you? Dr. Lori White [00:37:29]: [email protected] . Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:32]: Can you spell DePauw for us? Dr. Lori White [00:37:33]: Sure. Depauw, and the w is important because, DePaul and DePauw are 2 different places. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:43]: Lori, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Dr. Lori White [00:37:47]: Thank you so much, Jill. Thank you so much for the invitation. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:51]: This has been an episode of SA voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show. You can always email us at essay voices at NASPA.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show, and please like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:24]: It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill L. Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio-engineered by Dr. Christopher Lewis. Guest coordination by Liu Yongru. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In a this week's episode of SA Voices From The Field, guest Omar Mehdi shared his inspiring journey from being a student at the American University of Kuwait (AUK) to returning as the Director of Student Life. Throughout his discussion, he highlighted his experiences of personal and professional growth, the challenges of transitioning from a student to a professional supervisor, and the cultural shifts he faced as an international student in the United States. Navigating Change and Professional Growth Omar Mehdi's story is a testament to the transformative power of embracing change and pursuing new experiences. After completing his Master's in Leadership and Higher Education at the University of San Diego, Omar ventured into the corporate world, gaining valuable real-world experience outside the traditional university setting. His time in the business world provided him with a fresh perspective on decision-making, financial management, and the cultivation of a new professional network. From Player to Supervisor Lessons in Leadership Returning to AUK as the Director of Student Life, Omar Mehdi faced the unique challenge of transitioning from being under the direction of coaches to becoming their supervisor. His experiences of making difficult decisions and managing transitions within the sports program shed light on the complexities of leadership and the importance of personality and character in navigating such transitions successfully.  Reflection and Communication in Student Affairs Throughout his journey, Omar credits his ability to reflect and communicate his feelings to his university program. Initially finding the concept challenging, he came to realize the immense benefit of personal reflection and open communication, particularly when addressing difficult decisions and managing personnel changes. Omar's experience underscores the value of emotional intelligence and self-awareness in the field of student affairs, serving as a guiding light for aspiring professionals. Embracing Diversity as an International Student As an international student in the United States, Omar faced a range of challenges, including culture shock, visa issues, and a steep learning curve. His insights into the significance of listening to and understanding the diverse needs and backgrounds of international students highlight the importance of cultural sensitivity and awareness in creating inclusive and supportive environments within higher education institutions. Impactful Advice for Student Affairs Professionals Omar's journey and reflections offer invaluable advice for those pursuing careers in student affairs. His emphasis on the significance of personal and professional growth, the value of emotional intelligence, and the need to listen to and understand the diverse needs of students resonates deeply with the mission of creating inclusive and supportive campus communities. Inspiring Change and Transformation Omar's story serves as an inspiration for those navigating shifts in their professional paths, urging individuals to embrace change, seek new experiences, and recognize the transformative power of diverse experiences. His impact as the Director of Student Life at AUK reflects a commitment to fostering meaningful student experiences and impacting lives within the academic environment. In conclusion, Omar Mehdi's journey from student to supervisor embodies the spirit of growth, resilience, and the pursuit of meaningful impact within the field of student affairs. His reflections on leadership, personal growth, and embracing diversity serve as a beacon of inspiration for professionals and students alike, underscoring the profound impact of transformative experiences within higher education. This serves as a reminder of the power of personal and professional growth, the importance of cultural sensitivity, and the transformative potential of navigating change with resilience and grace. Omar Mehdi's journey stands as a testament to the possibilities that unfold when one embraces diverse opportunities and the journey of lifelong learning within the vibrant tapestry of student affairs. Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season nine on transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your essay Voices from the Field, host today on SA Voices, are pleased to bring you back to the Middle East, to the country of Kuwait to meet Omar Mehdi. Omar graduated from the American University of Kuwait with a BBA in Management in 2012 and then an Ma in Leadership in Higher Education from the University of San Diego in 2014. Omar returned to Auk in 2014 as the Sports Coordinator in the Office of Student Life and then in 2016 was promoted to Senior Coordinator for Sports in 2019, became the Assistant Director of the Office of Student Life, and then left the world of Student Affairs in 2020 to return in 2023 as the Director of the Office of Student Life. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:00]: I hope you enjoy getting to know Omar. Omar Mehdi, welcome to the show. Omar Mehdi [00:01:05]: Thank you very much. I'm very happy to be here and very happy to join you, Jill. Thank you for inviting me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:11]: It's a wonderful thing to be able to continue our tradition of having guests from all over the world on SA Voices. And will you let our listeners know where we're speaking from today? Omar Mehdi [00:01:21]: So we are speaking live from Kuwait. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:24]: Excellent. And Omar works with a previous guest, Paula, who was on our International Voices season. Listeners, I'm also going to let you know that I'm a little under the weather as we record today, so my audio quality might just be a little bit different than what you're used to. But please bear with us as we I'm sure the conversation will be just as rich, just with a little bit of a deeper voice today. Omar, we love to start our shows by getting to know our guests, and you have one of the most interesting transitions on our season because you've gone from being a student at your university, american University of Kuwait, all the way through becoming the Director of Student Life. So can you tell us about that journey? Omar Mehdi [00:02:02]: Yes, it is very interesting to be a student in this university and then graduate from it, come back and work here. My path into this world of student affairs came by chance. I didn't expect that I would graduate and work in the field when I was a student at Auk at the American University of Kuwait. One of the admissions counselors who helped me get into Auk recommended working on campus, be a student employee, and she recommended me to the Office of Student Life because I wanted a job and I had time and why not? I started working at Office Student Life back then. And Then back then, the Dean Of Student Affairs, dr. Carol Ross, and The Director Of Student Life, Damien Medina, were I think they just started the nuff program, NASFA, and they recommended it to me. They like, Listen, if you're interested, this is a unique opportunity to be an undergraduate, a student who gets to know more about what we do and why we do it. I was passionate about working in general, and the fact that they gave me an opportunity to work got me into it. Omar Mehdi [00:02:55]: And then I did the nuff program, traveled to Philadelphia back then, where the NASA annual conference was, we did the pre conference with enough group. It was the first time I go to the US. And it was the first time I go to a real conference, not a small conference for undergraduates. It was one which is with professionals and opened up my eyes to realize that the three people that work in the office life at the American University of Kuwait are part of a much bigger group of people that do this. So to see the size, the scale, the number of people that have the same title but work across the US. Canada and more, it was huge for me. I was lucky that the speakers at the Nuff pre conference were outstanding. We had I forget the name of the title of the book, but the strengths, the five strengths. Omar Mehdi [00:03:35]: So that you do this quiz at the end of the book and they give you the five strengths. They brought the speaker. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:40]: It was really cool for Gallup strength. Omar Mehdi [00:03:43]: Yes. And he was really cool, very engaging. So it was a very enriching experience for me. And then after it, I started considering doing a Master's degree in the field in the Division of Student Affairs. I was lucky enough to be admitted and selected for the Student Affairs program at the University of San Diego. So at USD, I did my Master's in Leadership and Higher Education. And the beauty of that program is that you get to have your graduate assistantship with the coursework, too. So again, I was very lucky. Omar Mehdi [00:04:15]: And you'll notice this is like a pattern in my path. I've always been lucky with the people I work with. Assistant director back then, danielle Nelman and the other assistant director, Stephanie, and the Director of the center for Student Success. All of them were excellent mentors. All of them allowed me to be this little kid who comes from Kuwait who just graduated undergrad right to his masters, have very little experience in the real world to learn, make mistakes, grow and develop. The year and a half I spent USD was, I think, pushed me at least five years ahead than I used to think that I would by the time I graduate. And then I came back. Luckily, there was a position available at American University of Kuwait. Omar Mehdi [00:04:55]: So I started as a sports coordinator as a student. I was a student athlete, too, so I was a captain of soccer team. I was in the basketball team. I was in the volleyball team, I was in the table tennis team. So I was very well versed with our program student athlete. But now I came in as a coordinator, I was lucky that the position was available. I started there and then moved into the senior coordinator for sports, then assistant director. I took a sabbatical or a break from student affairs. Omar Mehdi [00:05:17]: I left in 2020, just before COVID to work in a corporate world for three years there, and then came back February 2023. So the beginning of this year back to a UK as the Director of Student Life. And that's how I got here. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:29]: You didn't take the worst three years off of the profession. Omar Mehdi [00:05:32]: Let me tell you again, I was lucky. It was a troubling time for every industry in the world. But to navigate to support students, and how to offer students an experience into a digital one is a very difficult one. And like every country in the world, kuwait was very unsettled at that point, and we didn't know what was happening. We don't know how long this is going to take. When do we go back? So I left just before COVID and came back just after COVID. So when Hybrid was done, online was done, I came back. So I never got to see university through a COVID experience. Omar Mehdi [00:06:02]: I never got to do that, which maybe I'm lucky, but the three years that I was away from the university's industry, I had to also participate or try to offer the company I worked for as much support as I can to the staff and clients that we had. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:17]: What made you want to depart the field during that time? Omar Mehdi [00:06:20]: So I graduated with a bachelor's in Business Management, and the position I moved out of the Auk to go to was one in the business field. It was a great opportunity to test something new, try something different. As you know, as great as it is to work in student affairs and to work in a university, I graduated from Auk. I went for a few years to the States, to two years in the States, came back and worked in Auk. I didn't know anything outside of Auk, which has a lot of advantages in the job because I know it really well. But as a person, as an individual, to grow, you have to kind of leave your comfort zone. You have to leave what you're used to and you have to try something different. I was lucky to in the three years that I was there, I was lucky to learn so much. Omar Mehdi [00:06:58]: And I think I came back as a much stronger candidate for the position than if I was promoted from assistant Director automatically to the director. In the three years I've learned so much about the real world when it comes to working with people that are not just students, they don't have to be here. They can choose to pay somewhere else and go because I work in the gyms industry. So it's a month to month relationship. They can choose next month to leave you. So what you work on, how you develop a relationship with them, is very different to I have a whole semester with you, at least if not four or five, six years. So I came back, as I said, as a much stronger candidate for the position. And I can add so much to what I do through both experiences in student affairs and outside. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:37]: What inspired you to come back into student affairs and specifically back to Auk after having that business experience? Omar Mehdi [00:07:44]: The inspiration always comes back to I love what I do in student affairs and I love the field. And I always thought, listen, I'll change the world one student at a time, just let me graduate from USD and the world will never be the same because I want to change the world. You do mature. You do realize it's not that as easy as it sounds, but there's a very different mindset. And I enjoyed my job outside of Auk. There's a very different hat you wear and a very different mindset that you have when you work in a business and you care about financials, you care about bottom line. And there's a very different mindset to trying to create experiences for students to develop, to grow, and to learn from the worries that you have. The concentration, the focus is very different. Omar Mehdi [00:08:22]: Going back to trying to build programs or trying to build an experience for students to better themselves, to learn to experience new things, is always something that has attracted me. And that's why when I knew the job was available, I automatically applied to it because I knew this is something I'd love to go back to. And to add to that, I've always done it from a sports perspective. I've always done it as a sports coordinator and then a senior sports coordinator, and then to be able to do it at a director level where I can impact or influence policies or programs at more than just sports. So under our department, we have athletics, we have clubs and organizations, code of conduct, student employment, we have a bunch of facilities that we're in charge of, the lounge, courts and so on. And to be able to influence more than just one aspect of student life is something that excites me to come back to. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:12]: You said something interesting earlier, which is that you brought back skills that you didn't have before based on the business experience you had. What are some of those skills that you gained while you were out working in corporate world that have really served you well coming into this role as director of Student life? Omar Mehdi [00:09:26]: Absolutely. So many one of the things that comes to mind very quickly is the change in network. So in network and student affairs, most of us do very similar jobs and open up very similar paths for each other because we're in the same industry. However, when you go to a different industry, your network suddenly changes and you network with a lot of different industries. And coming back knowing so many different having new ties and having new networks is something that was very valuable, I think, for me so far. A lot of the students have ideas but don't know where to go and don't know who to talk to. A lot of clubs and organizations want to reach out to organizations in Kuwait where they may be too busy and so on. But knowing individuals in It can open up doors and open up channels for them. Omar Mehdi [00:10:08]: That's one thing for sure. Another thing in the directorship position you have to assume responsibilities. You don't. As a coordinator, when I left Auk, I was the chief operating officer. So as a chief operating officer in a company, your HR manager reports to you, the finance manager reports to you. Understanding how those moving pieces work and the rationale behind them is something I didn't have in the past. So coming back to now as a director, I understand budgeting at a different perspective. I understand hiring at a different perspective. Omar Mehdi [00:10:36]: I understand scale at a different perspective. In the company I used to work in too, we'd organize nationwide events where, for example, there'd be thousands of people that attend our events. Whereas Auk total is 2000 something students. So to understand scalability is something what was new to me. I was used to the same scale. I was used to the exact same scale. As a student here, I graduated, I worked here. USD provided that too. Omar Mehdi [00:10:59]: But coming back here was easy. It wasn't something new to me. So understanding that planning at a different scale is something else and assuming responsibility and making hard decisions during COVID at such an executive position at a company where you have to choose to either let go of people, change contracts and so on, and then to move back to a decision making position where it's not as serious as decisions that we make. I'm never going to choose to close a branch or open up a branch. As a director of student life, I'm never going to choose. And this directly impacts people's livelihood. The decisions that we do here I can take a lot lighter than in the past position that I had, which gave me a lot of perspective too. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:35]: You've also come back to an environment where you mentioned this was kind of the main environment that you knew as an adult, right? You were a student there, you grew up in the sports environment there. Talk to us about the transition of going from student at the institution to professional and how your relationships with people at Auk needed to change at that time. Omar Mehdi [00:11:54]: Absolutely. This may sound very interesting to the audience. So when I was a student. I came into Auk in fall 2008 and I graduated spring 2012. In the four years that I was there, the law in Kuwait was that universities had to be segregated gender wise. So I would come to Auk. It is a mixed university with gender segregated classes, naturally, that influenced and changed the dynamics between the genders and between all of campus life. So I leave to the states, I come back, and this law has changed. Omar Mehdi [00:12:23]: And now classes are mixed naturally. This changes the overall atmosphere and the campus culture. So even today, which is a mixed culture, the university experience that the students are having today is very different to the one I was having simply because of that. Naturally, as I age and the gap gets bigger between me and the incoming students and the students on campus. So although they're the similar buildings, the exact same buildings, it's the same culture, sorry, it's the same colors, it's the same some of the same employees, some of the same staff, but the culture has shifted completely when I even speak to students today. The university I went to is a very different university that they went to simply because of the way we were. The life that we lived was a very different one. However, I did come back as a young employee. Omar Mehdi [00:13:05]: I was 24, and some of the students, especially the nontraditional ones, were close to my age, if not older. I did come back and found some of the students who I was friends with who are still students. The nature of the position that I had because I was a sports coordinator, you tend to be the fun guy. You're not like there to discipline, you're not charged for code of conduct. So it was easy to be the young guy on campus because you're the sports guy. So you're friends with all the players, you're friends with all the coaches, you're doing the fun stuff. However, I think one of the first things that I had to do, and I think it made me a better professional today, is right off the bat, I had to discipline athletes. So I do have to stick to a GPA requirement when selecting students. Omar Mehdi [00:13:45]: I do have to enforce these laws. I do have to make sure that their behavior in the team practice and so on is held to a certain standard. Doing it at an age where you're very young to them can cause a lot more conflict and friction, whereas if you're much older, maybe because of simply your age, there can be an assumed authority to your personality that they succumb to. But I think especially that I was balancing doing that meanwhile, while being the supervisor or the person in charge of all the coaches who are all older than and a few of them were my coaches too. And I've had to let go of one of them. Who? Once upon a time, I used to play for them. And now I have to let them go. So those experiences are very, very sticky and uncomfortable. Omar Mehdi [00:14:25]: And forcing myself to go through them and not backing down, I think have made me more confident moving forward. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:31]: Let's talk about that transition with that one person specifically, where you're going from being under their direction as a coach to being their leader as a supervisor. How did you navigate the shift in that relationship? Omar Mehdi [00:14:44]: So I had two coaches that I played for and then ended up coming back and becoming their supervisor. In the first year that I was back, I had to let go of one of them. The second year I was back, I had to let go of the second one. I think the first one was, I think, a rough transition. That person didn't take it well, didn't take me offering pointers about how they do their job well, them not taking my feedback seriously, although it sounded serious, although I tried to do it in a serious setting. In the first year I worked at Auk, I'd also dress more professionally just to put that boundary and standard between me and the students and the people that report to me. However, they still never took it that seriously. And when it came to a point in time where we can no longer continue, they never reacted really well. Omar Mehdi [00:15:23]: I also think if I were to do it today, I would have done things a lot differently. I have learned in the past, unfortunately, 20 years of working. But the point I'm trying to make is the second time I was able to do it, the personality of the person that I had to ask to step down from the position was a lot more accepting of their mistakes and faults. I also learned that sometimes, even if because you can be really hard on yourself, on the approach because if it doesn't turn out to be as smooth as you hope for it, you also realize that it's not always only on the setting that you put. The other person plays a role. And the character and the personality that you are dealing with is a variable to the situation. So the second situation went a lot smoother, and that person, although they were let go, they were appreciated by the team, the university, they were given a farewell gift and so on. Whereas the first one, it was more storming out. Omar Mehdi [00:16:09]: Never want to talk to you again. This is ridiculous. I had to play it back. Driving back home and you're in the shower, you think about what they said. You know, these moments in your life where you think about these difficult situations where if you were to go back, you'd say some things differently. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:21]: Can you tell us more about what it meant for you to reflect on it and go through your own growth process? Omar Mehdi [00:16:28]: Luckily, because of the program that I was in in the university of San Diego. Reflection was huge. Reflection is huge in the process, and it's very embedded in the coursework that we do, coming from the background and atmosphere I came from in Kuwait. To go to USD and try to reflect on my own life was a very new skill. I have never reflected my life to be especially publicly too, there were situations where you would have to publicly reflect and you have to talk about what your reflections look like because that's how the setting is made in the classroom. And because it was very difficult. And by the time I graduated, I actually was able to do this. Now I'm able to reflect, get in touch with my feelings and vocalize how I feel and communicate what I need, what I'm feeling, what I'm learning was a huge advantage for me in the program. Omar Mehdi [00:17:14]: It's one of the main things I actually walked away with that I still use today. And it's something I practice in my positions that I've had. But in that period of time, it's interesting because at that point in time, you do reflect on how the words that are said or things that are communicated in the meeting may bruise your ego or bruise your authority and you want to defend it. The first reaction you may have is, I want to defend my ego and defend my authority, and I need to put my foot down. And because in that room I am the younger person. I am the person that not too long ago, I used to be your player, I'd had to be a lot more diplomatic and let go of the bruising that was happening to the ego and the position and the authority. So reflecting on maybe I could have been more aggressive. Reflecting on what if I did this, what would have happened? Maybe thinking I should have made it short and sweet. Omar Mehdi [00:18:02]: I shouldn't have maybe gone through an entire meeting with time, unfortunately, I've had several situations where I've had to let go of people. I've been able to maybe see the mistakes that I've done in that meeting and then not repeat them in the future situations, unfortunately, that I've had. But in that period of time where I was going through it, it was difficult because it was a very aggressive meeting. It wasn't a good situation. In the back of your mind, you keep circling back to the because you could have said this and you could have done this. And maybe you think, and this is a person that I don't necessarily have bad feelings towards you. I just don't think you're the right person for this job. But because I was your player, I do have a fond memory of you. Omar Mehdi [00:18:41]: And now that's ruined because now you think I'm a horrible monster who's let you go. But I actually don't have anything against you. I just think we need to try someone else. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:49]: Let's go back in time a little bit and talk about your transition to being an international student. You've spent most of your life in Kuwait, if not all of your life in Kuwait. And you're like, let's go to San Diego. It's sunny there. But tell us about that immersion into American culture and your adjustment period into life in USC. Omar Mehdi [00:19:08]: All right, so, as you said, lived my whole life here, born and raised. And sometimes it's like the fish in the water. They don't know they're wet, and you have to leave to know what dry is, because you have to leave the sea to know that what dry looks like. In Kuwait, I knew myself through titles. I am the captain of the football team. That is what I do. I play football. I am the youngest son to my parents. Omar Mehdi [00:19:31]: That is what I do. I am the youngest son to them. I am friends with so and so. That is what do. And because I was in that setting, I never got a chance to actually get to know who I am outside of these roles that you play. The moment I moved to the United States, and the moment you go there, you realize the world's much bigger than the little world you live in. And this can be true to any country, any city you live in. And because the United States is really far in distance and in similarities between the country I live in, everything is new. Omar Mehdi [00:19:54]: I never paid attention to the color of my skin till I went to the United States. I never realized I have a color of my skin till I walked into the US. That I realized I don't look like them. They do look at me and see a difference. My accent, the things I say, what's appropriate to say and what's not appropriate to say. You can say things in Kuwait that can make everybody laugh and make everybody feel comfortable, but you can say in the States, and everybody will think you're horrible and think you're crossing all kinds of red lines. So moving there in the beginning and this is the thing, I had visa issues to get to the States, so I missed the first semester. And then because of my assistantship, that goes with the actual being admitted to the university. Omar Mehdi [00:20:29]: So there was an office who was waiting for me to come that I actually never turned up to for a whole semester because they were waiting on me to get my visa. And by the time I got there, it was literally a few days before spring orientation. We were in charge of spring orientation as an office center for student success. So I literally had to hit the ground running. There was no room for you to train right now. Whatever task I give, you just have to do it. We will get to training you later. We will get to transitioning you later today. Omar Mehdi [00:20:50]: We have to do orientation. And it was the first time they do orientation too, as an office, maybe there was the first time for the center for Student Success to organize orientation, but for me, it was the first time doing everything. The learning curve for them was related to orientation. For me, it was everything. Whether it was orientation, these people, their names, what time does the sun set? Where do I get what this and that? I moved there not having an apartment or a place to stay. I stayed at a motel in the beginning, so I'd finish work and go back to a motel. Classes haven't started yet, so that's a new curve that's coming up. And I think I was lucky to have that. Omar Mehdi [00:21:20]: And I think because I hit the ground running, there wasn't time for me to dwell on the differences, dwell on the culture shock. Because you hit the ground running, you quickly have to adapt. And no time I was able to get myself sorted and move into a place and all that stuff. But the person that went to the United States of America and the person that left the United States of America are two different people. And I'm a much better person because of the experience I had. If I never went to the United States, I think I'd still be the same person I was. And I would say that is a worse off human being. I think as a person, I became much better outside of career wise. Omar Mehdi [00:21:53]: Career wise, I've developed mentally because of the experiences I had, because of the mentors that I had, because of the program that I was in. But genuinely, as a human being, I also improved a lot. I've changed a lot. The reflection process that is embedded into the program has allowed me to change some of the things that I never realized were a part of who I am. And going back to the point I was saying earlier where I knew myself through my roles, going to a country that A doesn't care about, maybe soccer, in the same way Kuwait does, and who I do as a person, and realizing you have a skill nobody cares about, and then nobody knows who you are. You don't know who anybody is, you don't know where things are. And trying to create something in that environment made me a much more confident, much more independent, and much more well rounded. I used to live with my parents. Omar Mehdi [00:22:36]: I still live with my parents because of the culture that we live in. You don't leave your house until you get married. So naturally, food is something I take for granted, laundry is something I take for granted. And this is something every college student feels the first time they go getting to learn how to do their laundry and something new. But it was new to me, and I was doing it as the older dog. I was doing it as. A person who has 21 years old, not 1718. So now I'm a little different, too, in that aspect. Omar Mehdi [00:22:59]: And then you move into the actual coursework and the actual program. And it was very strange to me that people were talking about their feelings in the classroom. It was extremely strange. It was strange to the point of it was off putting. Like, why are you being emotional? I don't want to learn this. I want to learn what says in textbook. I'm still looking at it as a traditional education style. And people were talking, everybody's talking about their feelings. Omar Mehdi [00:23:22]: And I'm sitting there thinking, this is ridiculous. You guys need to take yourself seriously. There's a professor here. And then some of them would be emotional to a point where they would cry. And to me, this is ridiculous. Guys, come on. Get a good grip. And I never understood the value of what they were bringing to the table till, I think, my second semester. Omar Mehdi [00:23:40]: And that's when everything clicked, kind of. I started drinking the Koolaid, tried to understand what it is that we do and why we do it. Understanding that emotion isn't a bad thing, feeling it isn't a bad thing. The knowledge and learning that you get from getting in touch with these emotions and unraveling the onion is something that is valuable. Understanding also that in Kuwait, being a student employee at a university, it's a great experience, but you're not really in charge of a lot of bigger things. And then you move to the States, and now you're a graduate assistantship. So it has a higher responsibility. The volume of work is more responsible, or the kind of work is more responsible. Omar Mehdi [00:24:15]: And then these supervisors aren't. I don't know them. They're new to me. And working to impress them was something very hard for me because I don't know who they are. I don't know what they expect when it comes to the delivery of work or the quality of work that you have to do. I was very impressed by them, and naturally, I wanted to impress them. So that was great, and I learned a lot from being able to work with them. And the best part of my program, what made transitioning to life in the United States and San Diego specifically, is the program was very sensitive to the fact that I am an international student. Omar Mehdi [00:24:46]: They were very careful with my transition in the sense that we had a cohort that would meet every two weeks as a class, and we would talk about our experiences. The people in the cohort were also very friendly to the fact that, hey, Amar is not from here. Like, how's doing? I think they were very welcoming. I was very lucky to have a very welcoming cohort that wanted what's best for me. They would talk to me about my transition and how I'm coping, which some people may not do that. You may not be so lucky to have a cohort that actually cares to check in, to actually care to give. You advice to actually to see how it's like to be the international student and see your input or what you bring to the table, your perspective as valuable. So in a nutshell, it's lucky to have that experience. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:24]: What advice would you give student affairs professionals around the world to support international students coming to their campuses? Omar Mehdi [00:25:30]: I think they should listen. I think that international students is a title you use for non US students. However, we as a group have so many different things. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:40]: Literally the entire world, it's everybody but American. Omar Mehdi [00:25:43]: And we are all very, very different in our backgrounds and so on. However, we do go through similar aspects of US. What makes us international students, the culture shock, the transition, trying to get self sorted and so on. However, listening is very important. The student groups that come to you may have very different needs, may experience things very differently. So maybe a student from a certain country may experience the exact same thing. A different student is from a different country experiencing it very differently. The international office that belonged to the USD at University of San Diego was also very cultured, which, I don't mean this in a bad way, but it isn't the same in the States. Omar Mehdi [00:26:15]: Like in my first week in the US. Someone came to me and said, Where are you from? And I said, Kuwait. And they said, oh, is that inside India? And to me it didn't offend me. I laughed because I was like, oh, Sweden, no, you need to open up a map of the world to me. I laughed. It didn't offend me, but it could offend people. That not knowing the difference between someone who is and it happens in the world because there are a lot of states that are neighboring and have very similar populations but hate each other and don't get along. So mistakening the difference between one and so listening and realizing that students have different needs and number two, being cultured and incoming student. Omar Mehdi [00:26:49]: Especially that as a person who is Muslim, who does believe in Islam, who does practice Islam and lives in a conservative country, when you go to the United States, which is a very liberal country, a lot of things can offend me. And trying to understand if this is something that may be normal to Americans, maybe hard for me to swallow or to cope with, can impact my experience and impact my retention. Reasons to come back is something very important because one of the things that used to happen in the class, especially in student affairs, they'll talk about LGBT concerns. And this is unheard of in where I come unheard of. And to be in a classroom where you're trying to understand their perspective is something that is foreign and alien to me because this is not something that is welcomed nor accommodated in where I come from. So this is one example, but you can have so many, and because again, I come from Kuwait, right? So a lot of people would ask me about Iraq as if I lived there, and then the war in Iraq was still going on, so people would ask me about the war and the troops. And San Diego is a very Marines heavy city, and a lot of our students in USD were there for the GI G Bill or what's it called, and they would come and want to talk to me about Iraq and talk about their experience. But that's not mine. Omar Mehdi [00:27:56]: I know it's close, but it's not mine. And I've never been to Iraq. So it's trying to understand the nuances of where they come from is very important because you're going to welcome them in as a university and you have a responsibility to make them feel comfortable in the same way that you have a responsibility to make res life, to be comfortable for the incoming freshman students and so on. So for me, the International Student Office needs to a listen, and b be more cultured in the nuances of the student groups coming in because they come with very, very different backgrounds. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:22]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:28]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world, and as always, there's a ton of things happening in NASPA, and I always love being able to share with you some of the great things that are happening. Another great blog on the NASPA website how community Colleges and University Partnerships improve enrollment and student experiences. This is by Sherry Rowland of Tallahassee Community College. Sherry provides some really great insights into her own experience, but also some practical applications and takeaways that you may be able to consider for implementing at your own campus. If you've never checked out the NASPA blog, you need to go over to the NASPA website, click on the latest, and go down to blog. Or you can just scroll over to the latest and go down to blog and you'll find this article right toward the top of the page. Finally, we are thrilled to announce that ACPA College Student Educators International and NASPA Student Affairs Administrators in Higher Education are once again partnering to devise and update the ACPA NASPA professional competencies for student affairs educators, along with the complementary rubrics with a planned release for the updates in Spring 2025. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:50]: There's a large number of individuals from both ACPA and NASPA that are on the Task Force. As the Task Force begins its work, we at NASPA are excited to offer the first of many opportunities for members to provide feedback about your experiences with and use of the professional competencies in your work. This first opportunity will be focused on groups centering on individuals in various positions in January 2024, NASPA will offer additional focus groups based on the ten current professional competency areas. NASPA also will provide an opportunity to offer written feedback via a short survey. Should have received an email just recently where you can sign up for one of the initial focus groups. All you have to do is click on the link in your email to be able to sign up for a session. And Espa does anticipate that these sessions will fill, but there will be additional opportunities that will continue to offer other engagement opportunities for you to provide feedback over the next few months. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:57]: So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Because the association is as strong as its members and for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit, where do you want to give back? Each week. We're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in. That knowledge, community. I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:18]: Chris, we always appreciate the time and effort you put into the NASPA World segment and keeping us informed on what's going on in and around NASPA. Omar, we have now reached our lightning round segment, which means I have about 90 seconds for you to answer seven questions. You ready to go? Omar Mehdi [00:32:33]: Let's go. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:34]: All right, question number one. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Omar Mehdi [00:32:39]: Eyes of Tiger. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:40]: Number two, when you were five years old, what did you want to be when you grew up? Omar Mehdi [00:32:44]: Engineer. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:44]: Number three who's your most influential professional mentor? Omar Mehdi [00:32:47]: Fat Wahat. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:48]: Number four. Your essential student affairs. Omar Mehdi [00:32:51]: Read the Chronicle. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:52]: Number five, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic? Omar Mehdi [00:32:56]: The Office. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:56]: Number six. The podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Omar Mehdi [00:33:01]: The rest is football. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:02]: And finally, number seven any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? Omar Mehdi [00:33:06]: I'd like to give a shout out to the American University of Kuwait with all the employees and faculty that have made me the person I am today, whether as a student or as an employee. I learned from them and learned from them on a daily basis, and I'm very grateful for everyone who has been a part of it. Last but definitely least, I'd like to give a shout out to my family who make me who I am and have to tolerate who I am too. So shout out goes to them. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:29]: Thank you so much for sharing your perspective from Kuwait. I think it's always amazing to have more international voices on the show. The vast majority of our listenership comes from the US. But we're getting quite a bump coming in from Qatar lately. A few downloads here and there from many, many other countries too, but just really appreciative of you coming in and sharing your perspective on all of the transitions you've had over the years. Omar, if folks would like to reach you after the show, how can they find you? Omar Mehdi [00:33:56]: They can find me on Instagram as Ometti number one and number 414, so Ometi 14 and email. I'm sure you can share that in the announcement. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:06]: All right, Omar, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Omar Mehdi [00:34:10]: Thank you, Jill. I really appreciate it and enjoyed the conversation. Hopefully I get to meet you one day in one of the conferences. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:18]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn. By searching for Dr. Jill L. Craighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:43]: We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show. And please, like, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced hosted by Dr. Jill L. Creighton SAP Mi. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:05]: Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to University of Michigan, Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, Dr. Jill Creighton welcomes Andrew Hua, a Chinese Vietnamese higher education scholar and practitioner currently serving as the Director of Student Affairs Case Management Services at the University of California, San Diego. Andrew's journey into student affairs began as an undergraduate student involved in leadership activities, leading him to pursue graduate programs in student affairs. He initially worked in residential life roles and later transitioned into case management. The conversation delves into how case management adapted to remote and hybrid models during the COVID-19 pandemic, focusing on building strong relationships with students even in virtual settings. Andrew shares his unexpected transition to the interim director role at UC San Diego and the challenges he faced during this significant shift in responsibility. Mentorship, support, and collaboration are highlighted as crucial aspects of professional transitions in student affairs. Andrew also discusses his decision to pursue a Doctorate in Education (EdD) while managing his leadership role and the challenges and rewards of such a commitment. Throughout the episode, Andrew's journey exemplifies the importance of mentorship and support during career transitions in student affairs, as well as the significance of building rapport with students and colleagues, even in remote or hybrid work environments. He emphasizes the value of seeking and accepting support from mentors and peers when navigating transitions. Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season nine on transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your essay Voices from the Field. Host welcome back to another episode of Essay Voices from the Field. Today we are heading to sunny Southern California to meet Andrew Hua. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:30]: Andrew is a Chinese Vietnamese higher education scholar and practitioner. Currently, Andrew Hua serves as the Director of Student Affairs case Management Services at the University of California, San Diego. Before starting at UC San Diego, andrew served as a higher education professional at the University of California, Berkeley and Washington State University. He received his Master of Arts in Student Affairs administration degree from Michigan State. Go Green. Go Spartans. And he received his bachelor of arts in sociology degree from the University of California, Riverside Go. Highlanders. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:59]: In addition, Andrew is the 2023 2025 Asian Pacific islander knowledge community cochair Andrew's various experiences in cris management, behavioral threat assessment, nonclinical case management, residential life, Greek life, student conduct conference services, and student government, along with his desire and passion to learn for developing students holistically as leaders, citizens and scholars in a safe and welcoming community is the foundation of his student affairs experience. Personally, he'd like to share that he's a huge Disney fanatic and loves photography. So you could say that his hobbies are going to Disneyland and taking pictures. However, he has other Hobies as well. He enjoys playing volleyball board and video games and going on foodie adventures and hiking. Andrew, so thrilled to have you on SA voices thank you. Andrew Hua [00:01:40]: I'm excited to be here with you as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:42]: We learned from your bio you are not only the current co chair of the Apikc for NASPA, but you are also transitioning in other areas of life with a recent permanent position and also doctoral studies. So a lot going on for you in the transition space. But as we like to start each episode before we get into the journey, would love to know your come up story. How did you get to your current seat in higher ed? Andrew Hua [00:02:05]: Yeah, it's not a traditional pathway. I would have to say. I'll share that it started off traditional. As a young undergraduate student, I got involved in leadership, had the opportunity, had great mentors, advisors, and he said, have you ever thought about doing something like we do and doing student affairs? I was like, I have no idea what that is. And from there, it started with exploring graduate programs and then applying and getting in. So I went to Michigan State University, which was awesome. Go Spartans. And then from there, all my background has been residential life, so res life at Michigan State residence, life at Washington State residence, life at UC Berkeley, and then my transition from Berkeley to where I'm at now the University of California, San Diego, is case management. Andrew Hua [00:02:54]: It was a unique space. I wanted to get back to Southern California, and I started exploring different opportunities and found myself as a case manager. I saw transferable skills and over. In three years, there's been a lot of transitions from case manager to now serving as the director of the Student Affairs Case Management office. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:13]: That's an incredible jump in three years to go from the individual contributor role to leading the entire team in such a short span when it was kind of a new functional area for you, but also kind of not, because what ResLife staff member is not doing case management and maybe just not calling it. Andrew Hua [00:03:27]: That 100% agree with you. I think Res Life has given me so many opportunities in understanding different areas and field of work. It felt really good to transition to that. But you're right. I would say it was one I think most folks face this. I transitioned in 2020 from Res Life to case management. A whole new field of work, kind of. And then from 2020 to 2023, I was working remotely hybrid, somewhat in person. Andrew Hua [00:03:56]: So lots of transitions and even transitioning to being interim director. Then director has its own transition too. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:03]: Let's talk about doing case management in the hybrid and remote space, because I think case management especially is one of the areas of student affairs where there may be some hesitations from leadership to be okay with that because of the sensitive nature of what these types of cases can be. We're seeing students who are having mental health emergencies. We're seeing students who have personal crises. And there can be something impersonal about doing that level of connection with another person through the Internet. So tell us about how you navigated that. Andrew Hua [00:04:32]: Yeah, it was very interesting. I think we've all adapted in 2020. Students had to adapt, professionals had to adapt, and the only way to connect was virtually. So I think we had to find a way to find that connection. And one of the connections I was able to build is how do we build rapport with students? Get to know them as if we were getting to know them as if they were sitting right across from us, getting to know who they are as a person, getting to know what their interests were, understanding what their challenges are and what are their primary and I guess primary priorities when they come meet with us. Right. It's not about let's talk about anything and everything. It's about what do you need at this moment? And I think that's where I felt the students felt like they were being heard. Andrew Hua [00:05:13]: We've continued to do hybrid now because that's what the students want. We've done assessment. They've said majority of time we would like to have zoom. Do we do offer in person. But the students choose that because it's convenient. It allows them to be in the space that they're most comfortable, not in an office that they're not familiar with. And they also get to choose the time much more conveniently to them. They have to walk across campus, take in travel time. Andrew Hua [00:05:37]: So I think all things that I think about leadership, my leadership and my supervisors, when we have conversation about how do we conduct our work, if the students feel safe in their space, there's less risks of them spiraling or their mental health being flared up, and we're able to kind of navigate that with them. Of course, we do run into some of the situations where students do end up having a cris over the phone or over zoom, but we have our resources intact, right? That's where we'll de escalate. We'll do our best to contact resources off the side, whether it's contact another team member via teams, zoom, et cetera, to help us get the resources to the student if we know where the student is at that moment. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:19]: So it's allowed you to work faster? In some ways, yeah. Andrew Hua [00:06:22]: More efficient and effective ways at times. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:24]: You mentioned that you took on an interim position before becoming the director. How did that know? Andrew Hua [00:06:30]: That was a unique situation. I was not expecting. I did my role as the inaugural case manager and outreach specialist at UC San Diego. And my role. I was learning, and I felt really comfortable after a year. And I was ready to meet for my annual performance evaluation with my supervisor and say, like, I'm ready for more. Ready to look at what does it mean to be a case manager that takes on the designee responsibilities of my director when they're out of the office. And then I went into that meeting, and my director shared, you know what? I have some news to share with you. Andrew Hua [00:07:02]: I have actually accepted another position. I'm like, I didn't even get a chance to share about my goals for the next year, et cetera, because the next thing that came up was, Andrew, we've talked to leadership, and we think you'd be great to serve as the interim director. And I was shocked. I was like, it was one year in. Granted, I received positive feedback for my performance throughout, but I was not expecting that. So I had a moment of pause before I actually accepted. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:27]: Think the more realistic way is you were freaking shook. Andrew Hua [00:07:32]: You are absolutely correct. I was I was not expecting I was like, I've done one year in this field, they're asking me to be interim director. I was like, okay, let's chat about that. What does that look like? So I was shook. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:43]: That is a really different conversation than. Andrew Hua [00:07:45]: The one you expected to have 100%. So granted, it was a great opportunity. And I did get to sit down and talk about, like, I really enjoyed working with my supervisor. And I said, I will accept it under one condition, is that you continue to serve as a mentor. And that the leadership that is still here that I will report to, also will serve as mentors too. Not just supervisors, but mentors to mold me into a great leader. Why take on the interim role? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:15]: That is a really amazing ask. We talk a lot in negotiation skills about things you can ask for that is not necessarily based salary, like vacation days and other types of things. But asking for someone to serve as a mentor is a really great pro tip, especially if you're taking on something that maybe you have your own reservations about. Andrew Hua [00:08:33]: Yeah, 100%. And I can tell you, they all agreed. They're like, absolutely. We will continue to serve as mentors and consult as you navigate this water until this day. I still have mentoring moments with them. Like every month, we have something scheduled with my previous supervisor and the leadership here at UC San Diego. So it's not gone. It still continues, even though I have taken on the permanent role. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:56]: When you take on an interim role, and especially in the way that it was offered to you, it doesn't really give the team a lot of transparency. That can feel a little bit scary to the team when all of these changes are happening suddenly. How did you navigate the waters of moving from a fellow case manager to supervising others? Who were your direct peers and maybe had no idea this was coming? Andrew Hua [00:09:15]: Yeah, that was a tricky area to kind of navigate. But in much reflection, I did inquire why me? Why my position? Why am I being selected? I think that was important for me to understand. And what was shared with me was my inaugural role. The student affairs case manager and outreach specialist. That was the starting point. The future and strategic plan was eventually this role would become the Assistant Director or would eventually become the designee overall for any Director responsibilities. When the Director was out and the entire team knew that when they did their search for the position, the entire team knew that the Student Affairs Case Manager and Outreach Specialist role was going to evolve into something of leadership. So I think that's when it made me feel a bit more comfortable with knowing that the team knew this. Andrew Hua [00:10:05]: They all had opportunities to also apply for the position and show interest. I think the other piece for me is I took it in my own responsibility to connect with my colleagues. I checked in with them and shared hey, of course, when the announcement was made, I connected with them afterwards and said, I wanted to check in with you. How are you feeling about the decision? What are some challenges that may be coming up, or how can I best support you in this interim phase? My colleagues actually embraced me. They're very happy. They're like, we are so happy that we have an interim director. We've seen what this department has been like when there is an interim director, and some of them shared with me that they're glad that they didn't want it. We had no plans. Andrew Hua [00:10:48]: They did not want to be the room director. So glad you accepted. We will happily work with you. And I think the year that I got to spend with them was awesome. We collaborated on so many projects, so they knew who I was, they knew how I worked, and in no way, shape, or form was their conflict. It was all collaborative and learning, and most of them had skills that I learned from that helped me kind of build on the interim position. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:11]: The interim year is starting to come to a close. It's time to think about whether or not that permanent position is something you want to do or don't want to do, because you had the opportunity to learn over the course of that year. Tell us about how you made the decision that, yes, you do want to go for the permanent position. Andrew Hua [00:11:27]: Yeah, that was a lot of thinking. I knew when I accept interim role, it was also a place of, like, I feel like I'm interviewing for this position too. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:39]: For a whole year. Andrew Hua [00:11:40]: For a whole year. And I also was in a place of, I'm going to look at this opportunity as interim to decide whether I would actually enjoy this work. I was going to look at this interim opportunity to also understand if this will propel me for future professional opportunities. And I think both were yes. Right at the end of the day, I enjoyed the work. I enjoyed that this pathway was probably going to lead to new opportunities for my next career step. I enjoyed working with the staff that helped support students. I do miss working with students quite often, but this gives me a different level of work, and there's a different type of feeling when I'm able to support my staff and they are coming back. Andrew Hua [00:12:22]: During our Kudo sessions. We appreciate your leadership. We appreciate the opportunity to work with you and your consultation. These are folks that have done case management much longer than I have. Some of my colleagues come from a social work background, and when I am able to provide my expertise and we are working together to provide an interdisciplinary or multidisciplinary approach, it feels good. So I think overall, those are a couple of things that came to mind. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:47]: You decide to go for the role, you do have to do a full, real search to get the position. What was that like to go from being a person who was leading the team to a person who is now interviewing for your own job again with that team and with your supervisors? Andrew Hua [00:13:03]: That was a fascinating experience. In my interim role, we had vacancies, and I had to hire a couple of folks as well. So I hired those folks, and then in turn, they have to decide whether I get to continue or they interview me. And my feelings were kind of mixed. Right. Is that there's a fear because as an internal candidate, they get to see everything. As much as we'd like to ensure that it's unbiased process in any hiring, recruitment, there's some bias that I believe does permeate into the space of like it comes into feedback and how we see others. But overall I'm laying out there and they can see everything, whether I present it in the interview or if they've seen it in the past in the work that I've done. Andrew Hua [00:13:43]: I think the other piece was also excitement. It was an opportunity for me to share the great work that we've done and share where we can go. Because I have had some time internally to think about strategically, if I were to take on the interim director position, lead this department at full capacity, where could it really be? So those were kind of the two mixed feelings. I was going in and then of course, it's kind of awkward going in and you see all the familiar faces and you have to like, let me tell you how I do my job, or how I think the job can. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:11]: Be done, or here's how I think I do the job. And then maybe what they're receiving from you is not aligned with their experience with you. It's a weird place to navigate. Andrew Hua [00:14:20]: Yeah, absolutely. Every has their perceptions and thoughts. So yeah, it's a unique experience to be in. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:27]: You get the position, you're sitting in that seat now. What was the transition like for you from moving from the interim space to moving to the full time space? Andrew Hua [00:14:35]: I'll be very honest, it wasn't too big of a transition. I felt like I was already doing the role at full capacity. If anything, I felt comfortable making long term decisions. So there were things that we tested out in the interim. I was like, we're just doing this interim, we're going to pilot it during the interim. But now coming out of interim and being the full time official director, I was like, it worked, let's make it official. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:00]: Stick it. Andrew Hua [00:15:01]: Yeah, let's stick with it, put it into place, iron it out, cement it in. And those practices are in and they run so efficiently and effectively. So I think most of the part it's just like, okay, now I can put yes permanent stamp on it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:15]: All the while you're doing this interim position, this job search internally, you're also pursuing the Edd, which is taking up a ton of time and energy. How's that going? And how the heck are you balancing that with taking on this brand new and very big job? Andrew Hua [00:15:32]: I don't know what I was thinking. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:35]: I think someone may have cautioned you in that regard. Andrew Hua [00:15:39]: I've had great mentors who cautioned, but also said that they would support me in whatever decision I go with. And I will say there were a lot of things that were coming to mind. I had applied during my interim phase and I got in during my interim phase and I said yes to the Edd. So it was kind of like a weird situation where I said yes to Edd, even though I knew I didn't have the official position, because I was like, this is always something I wanted to do. I always wanted to get my doctorate. I wanted to also get back into classroom and learn. I also wanted to be innovative. And then some of that is for me as an individual, I needed some structured learning and structured growth opportunities, and the Ed program provided that. Andrew Hua [00:16:23]: And I think it came down to be like the reverse round. Like, I am in the Edd. Do I take on this director role permanently? Because I could have gone back and been the assistant director. Because during my interim role, I also made some changes to my old position as strategically set in stone in the past. So, yeah, I was like, I said yes to the Edd. I feel good about the director role. I'm going to say yes to this, and I will say I have not regretted it. It has been tough, it has been exhausting, but I have not regretted the decision because I honestly think it has only made me a better leader and a better director and a better student affairs professional. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:03]: What are your strategies for finding time to be a person or to take care of yourself while you're doing these things? For those of you who can't see Andrew put out his. Andrew Hua [00:17:14]: You know, that's a good question and a hard question. I think I started off pretty strong in my first year of my doctorate and also the official director role by sticking to a routine. And I had support from my supervisors and leadership. Right. It's at 05:00 p.m.. There's no contact for me. We are non clinical case management and work related stops at five. And I've seen this where my leadership has told other leaders on campus, like, you will not hear from Andrew until he comes in at 08:00. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:44]: A.m., that is amazing support. Andrew Hua [00:17:46]: Yeah. When I saw that email, I was like, I feel I can fully put my work from eight to five and really be myself after that time. Right. And I think the balance after 05:00 is where does education and fun time go? And that's been a bit of a challenge. But my first year again, right, I had a structured set up. I had a number of hours. I would do some studying, and then after that, I can watch TV, I can play games, I can do whatever. Of course, schedules change up where friends come in town and we make modifications. Andrew Hua [00:18:16]: But I think that's the biggest thing is that my leadership supported me in my academic journey and I was dedicated to finding balance in my life. Now year two, and now almost going to year three, there's been a couple of changes, transitions, but all still the same goal of trying to be like, no, at five, I'm done 08:00. I'll come back the next day and then stick to my studies at the evening as much as I can. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:40]: And we're looking at Dr. Hua 2024, right? Andrew Hua [00:18:42]: Oh, you know, possibly if I really hunker down, it could be 2024. If not, it will be early 2025. So fingers crossed. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:53]: We'll say hashtag Dr. Hua class of 2025 or sooner. Andrew Hua [00:18:58]: Yes, I will take it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:59]: You're also taking on the role of running for and being elected the co chair of the NASPA Apikc while you're doing this interim and now director role and while you're doing this Edd program. So you just kind of were like, bring it on. I want all the things tell us about that journey. Andrew Hua [00:19:17]: I feel like you got my resume somewhere. Yeah. I'll be very honest. All these decisions were also encouragement from mentors people I respect, and also during my interim phase, which is very unique for those who know how KC election works. There's, in between KC chair appointments, they do an election. So you have elect year if you are selected. And during that time, I was interim and, you know, exploring opportunities. I had people saying, you would be awesome. Andrew Hua [00:19:48]: You should nominate yourself to go be a co chair. We have another colleague that would be awesome to team up with. So having spoken to my co chair, who is Michelle Chan now, and we found some common ground and some excitement behind potentially being co chairs, and we went for it. I was like, in a day, someone else probably will nominate themselves, we will go through the ballot and I might not get it, and that's fine. Why not put my name in the hat, see what happens? Little did I know, name got pulled. Yep. I am now the co chair. And I was like, oh, boy. Andrew Hua [00:20:24]: So I took the year of being a chair elect for KC as seriously as possible and learned as much as I can. It is a lot of work. Kudos to many of my previous Apikc, NASPA Case, NASPA Apikc co chairs. Y'all do a lot that is not seen. So kudos to those folks and how do I manage it all? I try to find a balance with my co chair, and I go back to previous co chairs and be like, give me your tips. What have you done? What can I do better? So it's a lot. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:52]: I think what we're hearing from you is that the leadership in the KC space is truly a service to the profession. I know that when we think about leadership development theory and different ways of leadership, oftentimes we think of the figurehead as having decision making authority and number of other things. But while that is true, especially in the KC space. The corralling and consensus building is really one of the most important things that the KC chair can do. I always view you all as the stewards of the KC for the time that you're elected. I talked to Shakura Martin about their journey to the NASA Board chair recently. They said it's a stewardship of the organization, it's not Shakura's agenda. And the same thing is true for the KC roles. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:32]: It's Andrew's Stewardship of the KC. Not Andrew's Agenda for the KC. Andrew Hua [00:21:36]: It truly is not my agenda. The leadership team are great folks who are motivated, excited, who want to give back, who want to engage. So it's really supporting some of their ideas. And of course, our constituency, when the constituency speaks and shares their ideas, we'll both look at ways on how we can incorporate, how we can make it come to life. So truly, I think the other way I navigate is taking on this co chairship is my amazing leadership team does amazing job. They are awesome. So their excitement, their drive also excites me and pushes me to continue to push forward with all the responsibilities of being a co chair 100%. It is not my agenda. Andrew Hua [00:22:16]: It is all about what our community needs. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:18]: You have been a tremendous guest for the theme of transitions. Given all of the transitions going on in your world, what advice do you have for listeners who are going through their own transitions in their professional life, in their service life, or in their life life? Andrew Hua [00:22:33]: I think for me, the biggest thing I learned is not to do it alone. Every transition comes with its challenges. And for those who are great higher ed and student affairs folks, challenge and support, right? Balance it out. Find the support to help navigate those challenges. I have mentors that are outside of this country that I connect with that help support me as well. So I would say don't do it alone. And you have people around you that are rooting for you to go through that transition and they'll be right there beside you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:01]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Christopher Lewis [00:23:07]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world and as always, there's a ton of things happening in NASPA and I always love being able to share with you some of the great things that are happening. 2024 NASPA Institute for New AVPs is coming up January 25 to 27th in Atlanta, Georgia. The NASPA Institute for New AVPs is a foundational three day learning and networking experience designed to support and develop AVPs in their unique and challenging roles on campus. The Institute is appropriate for AVPs and other senior level number twos who report to the highest ranking student affairs officer and who have been serving in their first AVP or number two position for not longer than two years. It sounds like something that you would love to be a part of. To learn more about, go to the NASPA website under Events and click on 2024 NASPA Institute for New AVPs. So, in January 2024, january 27 through the 29th in Atlanta, Georgia, is the 2024 NASPA AVP Symposium. Christopher Lewis [00:24:18]: The NASPA AVP Symposium is a unique and innovative three day program designed to support and develop AVPs and other number twos in their unique campus leadership roles. Leveraging the vast expertise and knowledge of sitting AVPs, the Symposium will provide high level content through a variety of participant engagement oriented session types. This professional development offering is limited to AVPs and other number twos who report to the highest ranking student affairs officer on campus and have substantial responsibility for divisional functions. Additionally, Vice Presidents for Student Affairs and the equivalent who are presenting during the Symposium may also register at a discounted rate and attend April 20 eigth through the 30th of 2024 in Doha, Qatar, is the 18th Annual Manassa NASPA Conference. The Manassa NASPA Conference provides student affairs practitioners with the knowledge and skills to effectively address and support college students. Higher education is witnessing a wide array of challenges, especially in the area in the era of fast technological evolution. Thus, this three day conference by NASPA and the Middle East, North Africa and South Asia Manassa area is an opportunity to connect with colleagues regionally and abroad to talk about these emerging technologies. The conference is going to provide space for discussing innovative ideas, adaptive approaches, use of technology, best practices, lessons learned, and provide tools to understand the next generation of student affairs. Christopher Lewis [00:25:57]: If you want to know more about this great conference and travel to the Middle East to meet so many of your colleagues, go to the NASPA website and check it out for yourself. Every week we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Because the association is as strong as its members and for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit? Where do you want to give back? Each week. We're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in. That knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now. Christopher Lewis [00:27:10]: To offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association, because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:31]: Wonderful as always to hear from you, Chris, on what's going on in and around NASPA. Andrew, we have reached our Lightning round segment. I have seven questions for you in 90 seconds. Andrew Hua [00:27:42]: Oh, boy. I'm ready. Here we go. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:44]: Question number one if you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Andrew Hua [00:27:49]: I would choose finesse by Bruno Mars. I don't just I feel like I would walk up with some finesse. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:55]: Number two, when you were five years old, what did you want to be when you grew up? Andrew Hua [00:27:59]: Oh, when I grew up, I'll be very honest. I wanted to be a dinosaur. I wanted to walk around like a trex. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:07]: You can still do that? Andrew Hua [00:28:08]: I still do sometimes. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:10]: Number three, who's your most influential professional mentor? Andrew Hua [00:28:13]: That's a difficult one. I have a lot of mentors that have inspired me to do many different things, so I unfortunately, cannot just provide you a name. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:22]: Number four. Your Essential Student Affairs. Christopher Lewis [00:28:24]: Read. Andrew Hua [00:28:24]: I'm reading too much right now, so there's too much in my doctoral program to read, so I can't pick one. Sorry. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:30]: Number five, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Andrew Hua [00:28:34]: I would have to say I've jumped back into Criminal Minds, and Criminal Minds is just something I really enjoy. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:40]: Number six, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Andrew Hua [00:28:44]: In the last year, honestly, the quickest thing for news for me is up first. I like to try to get little bits and get on it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:51]: And finally, number seven, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? Andrew Hua [00:28:55]: Personally, I would probably just shout out my parents. I wrote it in my application. I write it in my dissertation everywhere and my work, that they are truly who inspired me to be a disruptor in education and how to disrupt some of the systematic challenges and systems of oppression. So they're my personal shout out and professional shout out. I would have to say there are a number of folks from Glinda Guzman, Sonny Lee to Alison Satterland, all folks who have inspired me. And if I'm able to shout out you, Jill, you have influenced me in many ways and also inspired me to do many things. So those are a couple folks. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:34]: It's been a wonderfully, rich conversation to talk to you about your transitions today. If others would like to reach you after the show, how can they find you? Andrew Hua [00:29:42]: If folks want to reach me, there are two ways I recommend finding me on LinkedIn. You can try to find me with my LinkedIn name, which is H-U-A-N-D-R-E-W just my last name, hua. And then Andrew. Or you can contact me via email, which is ah u [email protected] Andrew. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:00]: Thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Andrew Hua [00:30:03]: Thank you. This was great. Thank you for having me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:06]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field, brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn. By searching for Dr. Jill L. Craighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:31]: We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show. And please, like, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill L. Craighton. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:54]: Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to University of Michigan, Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

This week we are taking a break from our regular episodes to celebrate Thanksgiving in the United States. As you give thanks, we encourage you to also learn more about the land that we currently occupy. Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!

In this episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, Dr. Jill Creighton, welcomes W. Houston Dougharty, a seasoned student affairs professional with a four-decade career in various leadership roles at multiple colleges and universities. They explore Dr. Dougharty's journey in the field, the changes he has witnessed over the years, and the lessons he has learned. W. Houston Dougharty discusses his early passion for college life and how he started his career in admissions. He reflects on the significant changes brought about by technology and the complexity of students' lives in the current era compared to the simpler college life of the past. The two also discuss the importance of adapting to these changes while maintaining the fundamental relationship-based nature of the student affairs profession. As W. Houston Dougharty transitioned from associate dean to senior student affairs officer to vice president, he shared how he continued to stay connected with students and emphasized the value of maintaining informal, friendly relationships with them. He also reflects on the challenges and support mechanisms as students navigate their growth and development. W. Houston Dougharty's publications on theory to practice, ethical decision-making, and executive transitions are discussed. He explains how these opportunities came about through his connections with colleagues in NASPA and how they helped him bridge theory and practice within the field of student affairs. The episode concludes with W. Houston Dougharty sharing his experiences in retirement, emphasizing the importance of service and community involvement. He mentions his volunteering activities and how he is finding ways to engage with the community and stay connected to education and student affairs through consulting and coaching opportunities. Overall, the episode highlights the evolution of the student affairs field over the years, the enduring importance of relationships, and the importance of embracing change while upholding core values in the profession. Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 9 on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, And I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Welcome back to another episode of essay voices from the field. Today's conversation features the distinguished W Houston Doherty. Houston is a 4 decade college student affairs leader who served as senior student affairs officer at Grinnell College, Hofstra University, Lewis and Clark College, and the University of Puget Sound. Before these leadership roles, he served as associate dean of students at Iowa State, preceded by a decade as a highly successful leader in enrollment management. He earned his degrees from Puget Sound, Western Washington, and the University of California Santa Barbara.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:53]: He received the distinguished service to the profession award from the Iowa Student Personnel Association in 2011 and the outstanding senior student affairs officer award from NASPA SPUG region 4 East in 2013. In 2018, he was named a pillar of the profession by NASPA, and in 2021, he was awarded the Scott Goodnight award for outstanding performance as a dean by NASPA region 2. He was ultimately honored in 22 when NASPA awarded him the National Scott Goodnight Award. In 2023, he was also awarded the University of Puget Sound's distinguished alumni award for professional achievement. He served NASPA as James e Scott Academy board member, as faculty director for the 2022 NASA Institute for new vice president for student affairs and as the faculty director of the NASPA Institute for aspiring vice presidents for student affairs in 2011. Houston also served on the regional boards for NASPA regions 2 for east and five. He's been cited in numerous publications, for example, the New York Times, the Chronicle of Higher patience, Seattle Times, USA Today, etcetera, and is published in a number of books including Linking Theory to Practice, Case Studies with College Students, which has 2 editions from 2012, the Advocate College Guide from 06, Maybe I Should, Case Studies on Ethics for Student Affairs Professionals in 09, and Executive Transitions in Student Affairs in 2014. In retirement, Houston is active and student affairs consulting and coaching and serving on the board of the KUNM Public Radio and in volunteering for the Food Depot Big Brothers and Big Sisters as a loyal alum of Santa Fe Prep and Puget Sound.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:14]: Houston, I'm so glad to have you on SA Voices today.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:02:16]: Thank you. It's terrific to talk to you and To meet you.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:19]: So this is the 1st time we're talking. And in true student affairs tradition, I suppose, in our preshow talk, we discovered we have many, many mutual students and have in fact lived in some of the same cities, just not at the same time.   Dr. W. Houston Dougharty [00:02:32]: It's that classic 2 degrees of separation in student affairs. It takes A 32nd conversation to figure out the 18 people you both know.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:41]: Absolutely. And now we get to know each other. But, Houston, you have recently retired from the profession with an extraordinarily accomplished resume as you've contributed to the field and made your mark in different ways. So we're gonna move through kind of your journey, but I'm wondering if you can give us the highlights of kinda your stops along the way. And ultimately, you became a pillar of the profession, Scott Goodnight award winner, a number of those very prestigious honors in NASPA. Sir. But what led you to that journey?   W. Houston Dougharty [00:03:08]: Well, I was just telling somebody yesterday, a graduate student who was asking me about my career. I just I had to start by saying, I'm really one of the luckiest guys on the planet because I've had the chance to spend 4 decades helping folks realize their dreams And get in touch with their talents and help create the world they wanna live in. And it really started during My undergraduate career as a student at Puget Sound back in the seventies and early eighties when I fell in love with college. And it didn't take me long to figure out that if I could Figure out a way to live my life on a college campus, I would be a very, very happy person. So I started my life in admissions At my undergraduate institution at Puget Sound, like a lot of us do. And then I had a a small family, and my wife said, you're gonna travel how much? And then I went back to graduate school at Western Washington and then at UC Santa Barbara and realized that what I really loved doing was being a part of students' lives every single day. So I've had the chance to do that on 8 different college campuses in six States over 40 years. And I've been at little tiny liberal arts colleges like Grinnell and Lewis and Clark and Puget Sound, and I've been at big places like UCSB and Iowa State.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:04:23]: And then I I finished my career at a place that kind of blends the 2, Hofstra, right outside of New York City, Which is over 10,000, a bunch of graduate and professional schools, but also only 3 or 4000 residential students. So, again, I just think I'm very, very fortunate to have had been a part of Students' lives and colleagues' lives for that period of time at all those different places.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:43]: One of the reasons we were so excited to have you on this season about the themes of transitions is you've been able to mark the story of student affairs from the late seventies, early eighties until literally the present. So you started in student affairs before we had really evolved in a technological school space before social media, before email, before, you know, all of these different ways that student development and student affairs work has really been deeply impacted and in a lot of ways, you know, growing in the improvement space from that technology. We actually just had a conversation with Eric Stoler about The transformation of technology in higher ed is a is a huge component of our work. But I'm hoping you can tell us about where the field was anchored when you started and how you've seen it grow in that transition space of society growing.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:05:27]: One of the things that I'm pleased about, in spite of all the change in the last 40 plus years, is that I still think it is fundamentally a relationship based profession where we're able to most Positively impact students' lives by taking the time to get to know them, and to be supportive of them. And at the same time, I wrote a piece For Scott Academy blog, as I rolled off this summer from Scott Academy board, I talked about One of the main changes, and that is in the complexity of our world and the complexity of our students' lives. And it sort of hearkened back to how simple in many ways college life was in the seventies eighties when there were no cell phones, where, you weren't inundated with with news 24 hours a day where life just seemed slower And simpler and perhaps more relationship oriented in a natural way. And one of the things that our profession has had to do Considerably is adjust to that complexity, to make sure that we're relevant in students' lives And relevant in a world that has changed some.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:42]: Houston, one of the things you mentioned about the transition was kind of this simplicity of college life when you started in the profession. And I'm wondering if you can just define that a little more about what that kind of simplicity space looked like and felt like for you as a professional and for the students that were attending college.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:06:59]: Sure. Well and a lot of it is tied to technology in that For the 1st 10 years of my professional life, I didn't have a computer on my desk. There was no such thing as email. In fact, when I went to graduate school in the early nineties, I very distinctly remember the very first assignment we had was to send an email. And that's Very funny to think of is and and we were nervous, and we didn't have Gmail. We used a server called Eudora is how we send our email. Students did not have the constant tether of outside information, like 24 hour news or Podcasts or the ability to text with their friends all over the world, they also lived in some ways not only a simpler life, but a more independent life Because their parents and their family members or their guardians were in sporadic conversation with them As opposed to now where students are con you know, walking out of class and texting their mom about the class thing. You know, I remember When I was in college, you know, my parents lived 1500 miles away, and we talked every other Saturday for 10 minutes by pay phone.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:08:14]: That's a whole different world than than the kind of constant, communication and Styles of parenting have changed dramatically. So I would say technology and family dynamics are 2 of the things that I've noticed the most. And   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:28]: Well, I'm sure that that phone call was quite expensive, and if parents are not home to receive that phone call, that's it.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:08:35]: That's right. And I was the first person in my family to have gone very far away to college. My parents did not, have much money. I bought a little, you know, a little card that I could use on a payphone, and we would need it. You know, we'd call it 1 o'clock on Saturday every other week. And it was a very valuable conversation, station. But it was a 10 minute conversation. And I can't help but think in many ways I grew and my independence because we had so little conversation.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:09:04]: And yet at the same time, I'm sure there's there's part of our lives that we would have loved to have shared, Which so many students can do so much more easily now.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:13]: One of the conversations I have at new student orientation every year now is with parents and giving them my personal challenge to give a little bit of that untethering, some of that freedom. And my my 1st 6 weeks challenge is always, Don't text your student until they text you first.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:09:30]: Love that.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:31]: And that really feels impossible for a lot of parents. And then this year, I had 1 parent who actually responded in one of our parent groups and, said, I'm taking team Creighton's advice because my student told me I'm annoying them.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:09:46]: It's very true. And I think because students and parents have been so accustomed To be in such close contact, it's tempting for parents to then wanna solve rather than allow students to be in discomfort. And as we in our field know, growth is what comes from discomfort. And so I think your advice is really good advice so that students can have some comfort and try to learn to navigate things without their parents constantly or their guardians constantly coaching them. And And   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:17]: that's what we're trying to do a lot is have, you know, discern the difference between discomfort and growth and crisis, right? We don't want students floundering. That's the challenge and support theory that we've been operating off of for years. I mean, we're just figuring out differently.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:10:31]: Well, and again, that just as the relationship basis Our field hasn't changed in 40 years. The challenge and support has not changed. I think, though, it's nuanced as we've had to adjust To family dynamics being different and technology being different. That the challenge and support is still critical, but it's mix and it's nuance Has had to shift with the changes in our world.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:56]: Certainly. And I've been reading and listening to a lot of information on AI right now because, you know, there's bold statements out in the world like AI is gonna take over human jobs. And then I think about what we do or what our counterparts in counseling do or counterparts in therapy do. And while AI can certainly be harnessed to make our jobs easier, there's no replacement for a person to sit across from you and provide you with emotional support or comfort or guidance.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:11:21]: Yeah. And I I think coming out of COVID, we were that was even reinforced with us, wasn't it, Jill? That As much as we found that we could do long distance or or through a screen or through other modes of communication, so many of us were so anxious to get back to an environment where we could actually have coffee with students, where we could actually be in the lounges of the residence halls, where they could come to our office hours Because of that, the sort of genuine nature of that caring relationship that is engendered by being in person.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:53]: Absolutely. And For me, those who have worked with me at previous institution or have read any of my recent LinkedIn stuff, I I'm very much a proponent of the remote and hybrid work space for higher ed. So I think that there's an interesting balance for how we take care of ourselves and also show up in our best way for students. And I really think that's hybrid going forward because we can do both. Right? We can give people the flexibility, that they need to live a whole life and then also be there for students when our students need us.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:12:20]: Well, and it has to be both and. Right? And we learn so much about what we can do differently that it's important that we not simply revert back to what we were comfortable with, especially those of us who are older and have been doing this a long time, but that we say, so how do we take the best of what technology offers us And a hybrid world offers us, and also hold on to the things that have always been dear to us.   Jill Creighton [00:12:44]: I wanna talk a little bit about your publications. You've had quite a career publishing books on a number of things, including theory to practice, ethical decision making, executive transitions. What inspired you to write on these topics?   W. Houston Dougharty [00:12:57]: Well, all of those opportunities came about because of Colleagues that I've had through NASPA, folks who are faculty friends, who were once colleagues, who then wanted a practitioner to join them in a scholarly exercise. And I think if you're referring to the case some of the case study books I've helped work on, I think in many ways, there's no better training Then trying to think about how one applies through the practice. I also was invited to be part of the executive transitions book that, You know, it was all about sort of going from the world of AVP or dean to VP. And, again, the chapter I helped write with Joannes Van Heke In that book was about how you take change theory and how you take a theory around leadership and apply it to the practical nature Of understanding a new campus and understanding a new role on campus. So that space of theory and practice link has always really intrigued me, And I've been so thankful, Flo Hamrick and me and Benjamin and and, you know, the folks who have invited me to really be a practitioner or scholar and join them In writing about that theory and practice world.   Jill Creighton [00:14:10]: Because you have participated in a book literally with the word transitions in the title, I would love to know if you have any nuggets that you'd like to share for current practitioners that are looking at that switch from number 2 to number 1.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:14:23]: It's a fascinating time in one's professional life when you think about that shift. And and I distinctly remember having conversations about Never wanting to be a VP because I loved being an AVP or a number 2 so much. And I was always afraid That if I became a vice president, and then, of course, I ended up being a vice president for almost 20 years, that I would lose contact every day with students. And what I realized was that that was my responsibility, that that there was no institution that could take The posture that as a VP, you can't hang out with students as much or you can't be in their lives as actively. But that's a choice I had to make. And, consequently, as I looked at VP Jobs, I had to make sure that I was taking a position At an institution that shared that value of mine, that value and that vocational dedication to having relationships with both undergraduate and, when possible, graduate students. And I basically found that at the 4 places where I was an SAO. I was able to make that part of my life, and it was still really foundational for me since I was So often the only person at the cabinet level who knew a lot of students by first name and knew their experience, and my job was to help represent them.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:15:48]: Right. So I'm so glad that I didn't shy away from advancing to the vice president seat, But I'm equally thrilled that I did so with a commitment to staying in touch with the student experience.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:02]: When you think about how your roles evolved in your career, how did your relationships with students transition as you kind of moved up the proverbial ladder.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:16:11]: At several places, I was known by students as the vice president who doesn't seem like 1. In that folks who may be listening to this, you know me know I'm not a very formal person. Now I grew up in the southwest where we say y'all and where it's laid back and where it's unusual to wear a tie. And and I was able to take that to lots of parts of the country. When I was offered the job at Hofstra right outside of New York City, there were other administrators there who thought, well, maybe this guy's not gonna be a very good batch because he's he doesn't act or look very vice presidential. He's not very, serious, or he's not very, buttoned up. And what I found is that at all of the institutions where I was lucky to work, there were students who loved the fact that I was Informal. And that and that doesn't mean I didn't take my job incredibly seriously and that I didn't realize that my job was was helping build buildings and hire staff and and enforce policy.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:17:07]: But again, before this notion of both and, that it can be both and. I could still be my Rather casual, friendly self and also be a very competent and a very successful administrator. And then in fact, Having the opportunity to be in the student section at ball games and at lectures and concerts and plays with them and Sitting with them and having lunch with them and having weekly office hours made me better at being a competent Administrator because I was in more in touch with what the student experience was.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:45]: One of the reasons I love serving in the CSAO COC is because I get to learn from our students every day. I learn so much from our population here at my current university. We come from so many diverse grounds. Wondering if you can share with us maybe a nugget that you've learned from a student over the years.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:18:03]: Sure. I have particularly loved Getting to know student leaders. And I've, you know, I've advised student government and so I think particularly of 1 student who I worked with very closely at Sure. Who was I haven't been a member of a a group led organization. She was the president of Panhellenic, and She taught me a sense of language, a sense of understanding values around fraternity and sorority life, but also how to mediate. We were working on a building project, and the ways she mentored me And helping represent the administration with students who are so passionate about space and about their organizations. I was made a much better administrator for spending the time with Reba and having her be feeling like I could sit back and say, Reba, this is your expertise. These are the people that you know so much better than I do, and you know their organizations better than I do.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:19:02]: I'm gonna take your lead As we try to compromise on some situations here, and then she just did brilliantly. And as I think about mentors I've had, I have her on my list of mentors as someone who is and then she went on to do our our graduate degree at Hofstra. And coincidentally, through four 3 or 4 years after she graduated, she also saved my life by donating a kidney to me when I was in a health crisis.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:26]: Oh my goodness.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:19:27]: And she was one of 75 or 80 students who volunteered to be tested when I was in the last stages of renal failure. And, you know, she she came to me and she said, from the first Time I met you at orientation, I knew I wanted to be a vice president for student affairs someday. And even if I never become 1, my kidney will be. And, you know, it's just remarkable that this student who has a 19 or 20 year old impacted my life so remarkably As a professional, Nao has sort of become part of our family by literally giving up herself to save my life.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:59]: That's amazing.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:20:00]: That may not have been the answer you were thinking about when you thought about what I've learned from a student. But   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:06]: This is exactly why we ask open ended questions. We always get these rich stories. It's beautiful. Houston, you're now in the retired space, and I'm wondering tell us about that experience of moving from what is a very fast pace and demanding job at the CSAO level into a life where you can make a lot more of your own choices.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:20:28]: Well, in some ways, I was benefited by having COVID be the few years right before. I will and also have this medical leave from my kidney transplant because My wife, Kimberly, and I were actually really concerned about what life would be for me after retirement because student affairs has been for me a lifestyle, not just Not and it's been a vocation and a lifestyle, not just a job. And she always said, what are you gonna do without a campus? You have had a campus for 45 years. And so in many ways, having the world sort of slow down around me with COVID, I realized that there are things I love to read. You know, I've always been very interested in the arts, and I've been very interested in athletics. I was able to dive into those in a way that I didn't realize that I hadn't really had the time to do that while I was on a campus as fully engaged. And don't get me wrong. I absolutely loved that engagement.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:21:23]: I wouldn't have traded that for anything. But what it did was it taught us both that there is life for me Off campus and yet I've spent 40 years as someone who has embraced a vocation of service And now I'm figuring out ways to embrace avocations of service. Just today, I spent 3 hours volunteering at The local food bank here in Santa Fe, and I'm getting involved in Big Brothers, Big Sisters. I'm on the board of the New Mexico NPR Geek Geek, so The KUNM radio station I'm on the I've been appointed to that board. So I've been able to sort of find ways, and I'm Still finding ways. I mean, who knows what that will be in the next 20, 25 years of my life. But service to others is important to me, and so it was really important To Kimberly and me that we find ways coming back to my hometown. I don't think I mentioned that, but I grew up in Santa Fe, New Mexico.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:22:16]: I left for 44 years and then we bought a house Five blocks from the house I grew up in, and so I'm rediscovering my hometown through sort of a lens of service. Yesterday, I volunteered at a college fair at the high school I went to Santa Fe Prep. In 2 weeks, I'm going to be at homecoming at Puget Sound because I'm on the alumni council. So you can't really get me off campus. I'm also doing a little bit of consulting. I'm doing some executive coaching with a vice president in Pennsylvania. I'm gonna be working with Some folks in student affairs at University of New Mexico, but just in sort of a consulting kind of space. So I read 5 newspapers a day every morning.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:22:52]: We love that. I walk my dog for 6 or 7 miles every day. My wife and I have nice long conversations and have time to go to dinner in a way that we haven't for the last 35 years. So that's sort of how I'm conceptualizing. I'm only 3 months in to formal retirement having left New York on June 1st and coming back home to Santa Fe.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:13]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.   Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:19]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world. And as always, there's a ton of things happening in NASPA, And I always love being able to share with you some of the great things that are happening. The NASBA Foundation is pleased to recognize outstanding members of the student affairs and higher education community through the pillars of the profession award and one of the foundation's highest honors. This award comes from you, our members and supporters, as a way to pay tribute to your fellow colleagues who represent Outstanding contributions to the field and our organization. The NASPA Foundation board of directors is honored to designate the, pillar of the profession to the following individuals, Teresa Claunch, associate vice president for student life and dean of students at Washburn University, Danielle DeSowal, clinical professor and coordinator of the higher education and student affairs master's program at Indiana University, Martha And Cezzle, associate vice president for student affairs, California State University Fullerton. Amy Hecht, vice president for student affairs at Florida State University. Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs, University of Michigan Flint.   Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:29]: Kimberly Lowery, director of college leadership and impact, the Aspen Institute. Edward Martinez, associate dean for student affairs, Suffolk County Community College, Jukuru or KC Limimji, vice president for student affairs, Southern Methodist University, Ramon Dunnech, associate vice president, University of Nevada, Reno. Adam Peck, posthumously awarded Assistant vice president for student affairs at Illinois State University. Christine Quamio, interim assistant vice provost for diversity and inclusion, University of Hawaii at Manoa, Darby Roberts, Director, department of student affairs planning assessment and research, Texas A&M University, Marcela Runnell, vice president for student life, and dean of students at Mount Holyoke College. Tiffany Smith, director of research, American Indian Science and Engineering Society. Don Stansbury, vice president for student affairs, Clayton State University. Belinda Stoops, associate vice president for student health and wellness at Boston College. Mary Blanchard Wallace, assistant vice president for student experience, University of Alabama at Birmingham, and Leslie Webb, Vice provost for student success in campus life, University of Montana.   Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:38]: If I accidentally said the names of these amazing The Jewel is wrong. I am so sorry. I want to say thank you to all of them for all of their unwavering support, for our association, for the profession, and congratulations on this amazing honor to each and every one of them. The pillars of the profession program also allows for you to be able to help The foundation in many different ways. You can give a gift in the name of one of these pillars to support them and also to Support the NASPA Foundation and all of the great work that they do to be able to push our profession forward. I highly encourage you to go to the NASPA website to the foundation's page, and you can give a gift of any amount in the name of any one of these pillars to support them. You can also support multiple pillars if you want to. Highly encourage you to go support Pillars today and be able to continue supporting our foundation in so many different ways.   Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:45]: Also, on top of the pillars of the profession, the foundation also Selects a distinguished pillar of the profession award. The 2024 John l Blackburn distinguished pillar of the profession award is given to 2 different individuals, including Sherry Callahan, retired vice chancellor for student affairs at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro, and posthumously to Teresa Powell, vice president for student affairs at Temple University. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening And allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers Or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself Where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to Think beyond what's available right now to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association because through doing that, all of us are stronger and The association is better.   Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:35]: Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:39]: Chris, it's always such a pleasure to hear from you on NASPA World and what's going on in and around NASPA. So, Houston, we have reached our lightning round where I have about 90 seconds for you to answer 7 questions. You ready to do this?   W. Houston Dougharty [00:28:53]: Let's do it.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:55]: Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?   W. Houston Dougharty [00:29:00]: Can I offer a couple?   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:02]: Sure   W. Houston Dougharty [00:29:02]: I'm a huge fan of the blues, and queen of the blues, Koko Taylor, has a song that I absolutely love called let the good times roll, And I feel like my career has been a lot of good times. And then I I'm also a huge Talking Heads fan, and so whenever Talking Heads burning down the house Comes in, I'm ready, so I'd offer those too.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:21]: Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?   W. Houston Dougharty [00:29:25]: When I was five, I either wanted to be a farmer like my grandfather, or I was starting to think maybe I would be the governor of New Mexico.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:34]: Not too late for that one. Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?   W. Houston Dougharty [00:29:40]: I would say, if I could rattle off a couple, The 1st person who gave me a break in student affairs after having spent 10 years in admissions was Kathy McKay, Who was the dean of students then at Iowa State University.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:53]: And I know Kathy.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:29:54]: Okay. So Kathy and I are are very, very close. And in fact, she now lives in Denver, so we're only 5 hours from each other. So Kathy's who gave me my big break at Iowa State back in the day. At Iowa State, I learned so much from Nancy Evans, who was on the faculty there, and she and I both have clear research and research about students with disabilities in our areas of interest, and I learned so much from her and Ronnie Sandlow. I learned so much from Ronnie and and then Susan Pierce, who was the president of Puget Sound when I came back here in the Dean's student's office. Those are the women that come to mind most quickly for me. Sorry. I couldn't limit to one. And and there's so many others that I would love to include.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:34]: So fun fact, I was working at CU Denver when Kathy was the dean at Metro State University of Denver. Yep. And then also when I took the ADP dean of students job at WSU, I replaced Cathy who was doing it internally. So I love these weird connections in student affairs.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:30:50]: Isn't it Funny.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:51]: Let's move on. Number 4, what's your essential student affairs read?   W. Houston Dougharty [00:30:55]: Well, I'm very interested in sort of alternative notions of leadership, These are not new books at all, but there are these little thin books by a guy named Max Dupree. One is called Leadership is an Art And the other one is called Leadership Jazz. And I'm a huge blues and jazz person, so I particularly love that little volume, which basically talks about Great leadership is like leading a jazz band where everybody gets a solo, and I just love that notion of blending the notion of music and jazz.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:23]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:31:26]: So the hospital I was in in Manhattan had BBC America. I found this really great show called Grand Design where people dream about Where they would like to live and they renovate a space. And if you ever have connection to BBC Grand Design, It's just lovely, and it's British, so it's sort of witty. And I can't do anything with a hammer myself, so I love it when other people do.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:54]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:31:58]: The moth. I love to hear people tell stories, And so I've sort of gone back into the catalog of The Moth, and so I love The Moth.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:07]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional?   W. Houston Dougharty [00:32:11]: Oh my gosh. Of course, my family, you know, my loving wife, Kimberly, and our kids, Finn and Ali, who are amazing and and who grew up on college campuses across America, And I am so thankful to them for doing that. And in our preinterview chat, we talked about interns that I had, like Dave, and colleagues I've had, like Jim Hoppe and Debichi at Puget Sound. I mean, just and, you know, the amazing students who've really become part of my family. And 2 of them were in Santa Fe 2 weekends ago to seizes Oprah Byrne, which is a huge thing we do in Santa Fe. 1 came from Boulder, and 1 came from Boston. And, I mean, it's just, You know, we work in student affairs, and you will never be lonely because you're able to make these wonderful connections with people who are so dear.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:54]: Houston, it's been just a joy to talk to you. So I know that, you know, we just met for the 1st time today, but I already feel like I know you a little bit, which is, such a lovely, warm feeling. And if others would like to connect with you after this show airs. How can they find you?   W. Houston Dougharty [00:33:07]: Sure. Well, probably the easiest way is on LinkedIn, w Houston Dougharty, and I also, today, I was at at big brothers, and they said that we're gonna Google you. What are we gonna find? So I I went home and Googled myself, and there are a lot of student affairs related things. So you could Google w authority. You'd see all kinds of interesting things, and I'd love to reach out or talk to anybody who'd like to be in touch.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:28]: Houston, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today.   W. Houston Dougharty [00:33:31]: Thank you for the opportunity. It's been a real treat, and it's great to meet you.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:35]: This has been an episode of essay voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This though is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at essay voices at NASPA.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show, and please like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, eye or wherever you're listening now.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:09]: It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger casting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill l Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by Liu Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, Dr. Jill Creighton hosts Dr. Yisu Zhou, an accomplished university professor from the University of Macau. Dr. Zhou shares his unique journey from being an international student to becoming a professor and provides insights into the transitions in higher education, particularly in China and Asia. The episode begins by introducing Dr. Yisu Zhou's background and educational journey. He highlights his early experiences as an English teacher in rural China, which sparked his interest in education. He pursued his PhD in the United States, which ultimately led him to his current role as a professor at the University of Macau. Dr. Zhou emphasizes the impact of internationalization in higher education, discussing how the economic growth in China over the past two decades has created a demand for high-quality education. This demand has led to an increase in Chinese students pursuing undergraduate and graduate degrees abroad, especially in the United States. He also touches on the various stages of this trend, starting with Chinese students seeking doctoral programs overseas and later expanding to undergraduate programs. The podcast delves into the differences between teaching styles in the West and East, highlighting the smaller class sizes and active communication in Western universities compared to the more lecture-focused approach in many Eastern institutions. Dr. Zhou suggests that educators and student affairs professionals should understand these cultural differences and proactively support international students in adapting to the new learning environment. Dr. Zhou encourages student affairs professionals to be patient and understanding when working with students from different cultural backgrounds. He explains that while students from Asia may initially appear passive, they are actively processing information and sometimes take longer to initiate help-seeking behavior due to cultural differences. The podcast concludes with Dr. Zhou emphasizing that international students can be valuable assets to higher education programs, as they bring strong work ethics and a commitment to academic excellence. He also highlights the need for international students to develop skills for navigating diverse and complex educational systems, which can differ significantly from their home countries. This episode offers valuable insights for student affairs professionals and educators, providing a better understanding of the challenges and opportunities that come with the internationalization of higher education and the diverse cultural backgrounds of students. Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 9 on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, And I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Welcome back to another episode of SA Voices from the Field, where today I'm delighted to bring you a conversation with an accomplished university professor from the University of Macau. Isoo Cho is an associate professor at the faculty of education and by courtesy, the department of sociology at the University of Macau. He earned his PhD team from Michigan State University's College of Education. Joe's doctoral dissertation focused on the teaching profession, specifically out of field teachers and utilize a large scale survey from OECD. Before attending MSU, Joe received his bachelor's degree in statistics from East China Normal University and worked as an English teacher in rural Shanxi province from 2005 to 2006, where his passion for understanding the educational process bloomed. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:06]: Joel employs a sociological perspective when examining various policy issues, including school finance, teacher professionalization, and higher education cation reform. His work has been published in Discourse, Sociological Methods and Research, Chinese Sociological Review, international journal of educational development, and other notable journals. Zhou has also been feasted on various Chinese media outlets, such as the paper Peng Pai Xing Wen, Beijing News, Xing Jing Bao, and China Newsweek, Zhongguo Xing Wen, Zhoukan. In the University of Macau community. Joe is deeply committed to teaching and service. He created the 1st generation course aimed at raising global awareness for undergraduate students across all majors and departments. And with an innovative approach to nurturing students from diverse backgrounds, this course is widely accepted by those students and running at full capacity every year. Professionally, he's actively engaged across the university and scholarly community, and he received the outstanding reviewer award from occasional researcher in 2015. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:04]: Joel's service work reflected his thinking of higher education as an ecology of knowledge experts. He's penned a 5 year strategic plan, advise on a library strategic plan, and architected a doctoral of education program. He is the recent recipient of the faculty service award for 2017, 18, and also so 21/22. Isu, we're so glad to have you on the show today. Yisu Zhou [00:02:25]: Thank you very much for having me, Jill. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:27]: And even better for me that we're in the same time zone, that as a gift I don't get on the show a lot. Yes. Yes. You had lots of international people appearing on our show. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:35]: And you're at the University of Macau, how so folks know listeners who are not familiar with the geography of China. Macau is in the southern part of China. It's a beautifully warm place. It's also famous for casinos, amongst other things. Yisu Zhou [00:02:48]: Like Orento, Las Vegas, if you want a short metaphor. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:52]: You can even go to, like, the MGM in The Venetian in Macau. Yisu Zhou [00:02:55]: It's actually the same. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:56]: But that is not the reason you're in Macau. No. So So we're glad to talk to you today about your experiences as a professor of higher education studies. And normally, I think our listeners are exposed to professors of higher ed who are pretty western centric. So this is a great opportunity to learn more about higher education and the study of higher cation in Asia. But before we talk about your expertise in the transformations and transitions of higher ed in China, I'd love to talk to you first about how you became a professor. Yisu Zhou [00:03:25]: Oh, yeah. No problem. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:27]: So what's the story? Yisu Zhou [00:03:29]: I think you can say part of that is is running through the family. So both my Parents are academe, working in the, academia, which give me some exposure to how institutions work in the Chinese setting when I was little. But I I didn't actually made up my mind before well, I think well into my PhD program. When I grow up, I wanna be a scientist. So I think in college, I study, statistics. So, kind of the applied field of, mathematics in a sense that I wanna things, and, I wanna run data. I'm really interested in data as a kid, when I grow up. But, after college, I also wanna get some exposure about Interacting with people. Yisu Zhou [00:04:07]: I'm kind of, you know, in that, gap sort of a mentality, that I'm interesting a lot of things, but I really I had a mid in my mind about what I'm going to commit my life to doing. So I spent a year actually teaching in a rural village in the Western China, which kind of a place they have a poverty line, which give me a lot of experience working with, rural children, rural parents. And I taught English at 6th grade, in that particular school, for the year. So I really start to think about how I can observe social life, Particularly school life. That is, I I think the main motivation and the main sort of event that, direct me toward a study of education. So after that year, I went to the United States. I, went to Michigan State to do my PhD degree. I first Enrolled in, psychometric program because of my statistics background, and people really want me to contribute to that. Yisu Zhou [00:05:03]: And after 2 years, I found that my passion and my interest has, sort of shifted toward international and competitive education. So I'm trained as an international comparative, educator in my PhD program. And, well, Macau sort of come as a supply because I am the part of the, post, What we call, 2008 survivors of the, economic meltdown so that many, US universities, freeze hiring during the time. It's been actually, they fed. It's quite, last quite, for some time. So when I was in the job market in 2011, The the domestic job market is basically so competitive that there are only very handful places openings in that particular year. So when I was searching the catalog job postings on Chronicle, this place called University Macau sort of, appeared in my search. I actually have never heard of this university before, And this is really a new experience. Yisu Zhou [00:05:59]: I know places in Hong Kong because they are more established. They have university of Hong Kong and Chinese university of Hong Kong are the 2 sort of the star universities in a region, and people already know that. But never heard of University of Macau. So I did a little bit of research. I think, well, maybe I should try that mostly because it's close to home And it's an international environment which allows me to conduct international research and to teach in English and, had the opportunity to with a lot of, international colleagues. And, well, when I I didn't expect a lot, you know, when I submit my application, but think, like, 2, 3 weeks later, I got a call from my former dean, and he says, he just moved from, University of Virginia, actually, to Macau. And he's really looking for people who have received a very rigorous American style academic training to work with him. So, you know, we had a nice conversation. Yisu Zhou [00:06:48]: And he invited me over for a job talk. And, well, the rest is history. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:53]: And you have since become quite an accomplished publisher share amongst many other things. I would encourage all of you to go look up Zhou Isu on, Google Scholar. You can see he's just got quite picture related to education in the Chinese region. But thinking about what you're studying now, what's your focus now in your work? Yisu Zhou [00:07:12]: So because I'm getting older and my also my role with inside institutions sort of transitioned toward more of the administrative side, I've been involving a lot of, program administration, my faculty administration, and, of course, some university side of business, which I think it give me a kinda unique Sort of an insider perspective in terms to understand how institution work. So my interest gradually shifts toward this institutional perspective about university, I think higher, education because my current working situation and the network I've been building because of my professional lives. So I think recent years, my interest gradually shift toward, understanding, higher education development in China, in Particular internationalization of higher education in China. I think that's one thing currently I'm doing some research at the moment. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:00]: The institution I'm working for currently is a great example of internationalization. Yisu Zhou [00:08:05]: Exactly. I really had a privilege and opportunity to visit DKU during the summer. And it's really impressed me and opened my mind. We have so much to learn from you guys, a top elite private institution and working in China And catering to a lot of Chinese student demand and, to really establish yourself as an em embracer of this movement of, internationalization of higher ed in China. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:29]: And the joint venture universities in China are varieties of years old. We have a neighbor, Shaqingqiao, Liverpool, which is much to older than us, but our closest most similar university, NYU Shanghai, is the same age as us, and that's a decade. So it's to a wide variety. There's also the University of Nottingham Ningbo down the road, which, again, also much older than us, Wenjoking, and then some that are younger than us like Tianjin Juilliard. So it's all over the map. Yisu Zhou [00:08:54]: Yeah. It is. It's it's all over the map. And I think from a policy perspective, China really sort of embraced In, multifaceted, you can say, strategies in terms of working with international partners. We have American University, European University, Right. Coming to China, setting up joint ventures. There are also several, Hong Kong institutions. They have different levels of cooperation in China. Yisu Zhou [00:09:16]: Right. They have joint ventures. They have sites like campus. But most of them actually have a research institution set up in China. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:22]: So let's go back and think about the transition of the movement to begin opening doors for internationalization of education in this part of the world. What can you tell us about that history? Yisu Zhou [00:09:34]: I think from our perspective, there is a demand and the, sort of, the need for a high Quality, higher education really came, dates back to early 2000 when, economically, China took off, Which cultivated a very strong local base of parents who have done business with, western, partners, Or they have traveled the world. They have seen places elsewhere, and because of free flow of information allows them to understand and to see how Western education sort of, opens up a different kind of possibility for their child. So I think this is so, you know, if if if you count that, it's been about 20 years up to this point. And I think we can divide it into, like, several stages because at first, it's most about sending your kids overseas. And that trend first started with the PhD programs because most parents just cannot afford, Right. A 4 year, college life for their kids in the United States. And the PhD and some master program, they do offer very generous, scholarships For those academically talented Chinese students, so you know? But the the numbers are usually not very large, right, because their Resources is all are always limited. And then starting, I think, a decade into the 1st decade of 21st century, really sees that Chinese parents, they, they become richer, and the opportunities really open up. Yisu Zhou [00:11:05]: Because if we count the kind of international program that is available to Chinese student, Australia and the UK are the 1st large market that sort of opens fully embrace, you know, to the, Chinese student, and they embrace them very Politically in the US because the selectivity and different tiers and such large and diverse system also is very attractive gradually to Chinese student. And because I I think one big attraction about the US higher education is this economy. It's so robust and it's so diverse, which means the student can always think about, right, what I can do after graduation. That, you know, if you go to some smaller places, 2, 3 years later, you need to find a job. Right? And that might not be enough those kind of high quality jobs around. So I think the the 2010 really sees kind of a a higher peak for Chinese student, undergraduate student going overseas. And, of course, this trend also spill over to other segments. So we also, you know, if you read the news, there are Private high schools, in US or even public schools, they cater to international student. Yisu Zhou [00:12:13]: Chinese student, of course, because of the large number, A Korean student, a Japanese student, a student from Middle East, you know, these places where they see a large economic booms and a student wants to have an different opportunities. So I think that sort of these trends sort of coalesced together, making the 2nd decade of 21st century really, really is about international students going into US and going into other western market sort of in large numbers. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:40]: So with that transition of of this trend of students going abroad, when they come back with those skills, How has that impacted always of life, always of being with that education and skill set coming back? Yisu Zhou [00:12:54]: I think from my own traction with students and my observations with private business owners or, just talking to graduates coming, you know, Having obtained a western education degree, I think this is really a process of different cultures kind of, mingling together And creating a kind of a hybrid person that they many Chinese students still have a very strong Chinese identity, you know, growing up And coming back to home, but their years, in America, in Australia, or in other places sort of open up their horizon in a sense that they understand, Things such as diversity, things such as, critical thinking. These things are not did not play such an important role in a domestic higher education. So, You know, when we compare them and with their friends who didn't choose to go to abroad. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:45]: And we have some incredible universities around this region as well places like Tsinghua, Peking, Pudong, etcetera. What do you see as the biggest difference between the different styles of teaching in the undergraduate frame. Yisu Zhou [00:13:58]: 1st, I I think the institutional setting is really different. Right? So the one thing with DKU and, and, for instance, NYU really struck me is the how small the class size are. The class size are really small, which means individual instructor can give a sort of a tailored Or individualized time to a student to catering to a wide range of needs. Right? Questions you can ask a question immediately. All Almost always. Right? And you can get instant feedback on these kind of things. But I think in China, kind of a broader if you wanna situate this question in border eastern Asian context, A kind of lecture style larger classroom is the standard format of teaching and learning. And in that kind of format, Students' own diligence and their own hardworking is kind of required by default. Yisu Zhou [00:14:46]: So no matter what kind of questions you Have you need to think about the solution your by yourself first. This is the, like, your first option. And then if you can solve it, maybe you can try to look for help from the instructor. Right. So the teacher's role really different because of such large classrooms and because I think mainly towards in century old kind of educational philosophy about how people should learn. But I think the, institutions such as DKU and, like I said, NYU, they offer us a different kind of possibility of how teachers can interact with student and how teacher a student can learn. And based on my Oh, understanding. Student really love that. Yisu Zhou [00:15:23]: And, that sort of enriched their experience and helped them to overcome a lot of, difficulties, I didn't go study. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:30]: You've also been an international student yourself, and I'm wondering if you have any advice for our student affairs professionals who are listening on how best to support tuning into US education or US study or even just living in a new country. Yisu Zhou [00:15:44]: I think study abroad is really a very important lesson of my life. I have a lot of struggles, but I think overall, it is a very positive experience. I think for, student affairs, colleagues working in the US, you need to understand that student from the east and China and other parts of the, Asia, they're coming from quite different cultural background, Which means the student are accustomed to the kind of expectations in their home country or home culture. Most of these places sort of a Student are expected to follow an authority to not to sort of challenge the authority and not to break or to question the the rules the rules of the classroom, the rules of the institution, or even interhuman kind of, rules. So they might seem like these student are a little bit passive. I think the student, taking myself as an animal, we're always actively thinking about the situation, trying to decode a situation. It's just that our experience situate us through a certain kind of conditions that we Convinced essentially our mind convinced us, oh, you shouldn't ask this question at this particular time. You should find another, point. Yisu Zhou [00:16:52]: But I think in the US, it's always the communication part is always real time. Right? You can always throw a question. You can always seek any clarification. You can always seek help. This is not something embarrassing. This is actually supported. And, many institutions actually have developed and have very capable professionals to try to help student to do that. But I think the first step is I mean, the the expectation is the student need to make the first move. Yisu Zhou [00:17:19]: Right. They need to go out to reach out to seek clarifications, but that first move sometimes can happen quite late. Not the first day of the orientation may be not even the 1st day of the class. Might you know, it happened 2 or 3 weeks after class sort of started After some, after the student is confident enough that they convince themselves they have interpreted the situation correctly, and then they they trying to go out to say, Hey. I can't I don't really understand this. Can you really help me? So I think a lot of hand holding and to opening up yourself to the international student is really something very important. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:53]: I really appreciate that advice because the perspective taking of what I might expect from an authority figure in my home country is truly very different in the US compared to a lot of cultures in this part of the world, which means that help seeking behavior here that we're always trying to draw out of our students. We might need to go an extra step or 3 in order to explain why that's appropriate and why that is culturally spected. Yisu Zhou [00:18:17]: My own experience tells me that in many cases, in the question and answer sessions, in orientation, in a big event When we sort of prepare a lot of materials, we tell the students, sometimes we don't receive sort of a warm kind of a response It which might happen actually in the US context. Right? The US student are most time, they are very active, and they won't hesitate to throw questions at you. But in this Part of the world, sometimes the student a little wants to sit back and they want to deliver their questions in different channels. So that's something I think for any student affairs officers or people who travel, to this part of the world to teach and to engage with student, I think they should realize That's kind of the cultural difference. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:00]: Are there any other thoughts you'd like to share on the transitions of higher education that you study in in China, in East Asia, or just any thoughts for our mostly western audience. Yisu Zhou [00:19:09]: I think the Chinese student and many, Asian student, they will be a big asset to the program. These are hard workers, and they sort of really cherish the kind of, academic excellence because they have been expected to perform at relatively high level since they're a kid. The kind of things I think they will learn, and definitely, I think that's that's something they should learn, is the communication skills, the kind of skills how to navigate themselves in a very complex system from the studies of a competitive education. This is one takeaway message that US education system is so different. A comprehensive high school system actually gave the student quite early on experience. I mean, It's not all positive, but it gives most student experience to navigate through a bunch of peers, which are heterogeneous. Right? And they have very diverse interest, And they formed little clicks, and then you need to find your best friend and find the resources and to find the teachers that you can work with. And most Asian students, they don't actually learn that until the university level because they have been segmented in a sort of uniformly set up format throughout a lower secondary an upper secondary school. Yisu Zhou [00:20:19]: So this is really a challenge for them. That is for them to develop the kind of skills to work in a diverse environment. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:27]: And that's not to say 1 is better or worse than the other, just the systems are entirely unique and different. Yisu Zhou [00:20:33]: Exactly. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:34]: And that means the students are coming with different skill sets. So you might have, you know, 1 student who's better at help seeking behavior, but the other who is just quite a lot better at absorbing information. And it just depends on the strength that we need in the moment. Yisu Zhou Definitely. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:46]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Christopher Lewis [00:20:52]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world. And as always, there's a ton of things happening in NASPA, and I always love being able to share with you Some of the great things that are happening. The 2024 Dungey Leadership Institute DOI faculty application is currently live. The Dungey Leadership Institute is a signature initiative of the NASPA undergraduate fellows program with the following learning outcomes for fellows gaining Foundational knowledge of the history and functions of student affairs in higher education, gain knowledge of contemporary issues in higher education, Participate in intergroup dialogue around issues of equity and social justice, collaborate with peers to research and present ethical resolutions to current administrative and leadership issues in student affairs. Reflect on and articulate the influence of personal identities and histories on effective student affairs leadership and engage in professional networking with student affairs faculty and administrators. DLI directors, selected faculty members, and NASPA staff plan this 6 day leadership institute to develop leadership skills, enhance cultural competency, and prepare fellows for a career in student affairs. Specifically, faculty will colead a cluster of 8 to 10 students through the DLI experience And provide support to all students attending the institute. Christopher Lewis [00:22:16]: Travel, meals, and housing are provided by NASPA and our host institutions. Faculty within this program are all current NASPA members. Applicants need to have at least 5 full time years of professional experience post your masters at the time of application. NEUF alumni are also eligible to apply with at least 2 years of professional experience post masters. If you apply for this, you must be available June 20th through 26, 2024 for the actual institute. You can apply through Friday, November 13th, and go to the NASPA website to be able to submit your demographic information, your resume or CV application questions and reference information for consideration. NASBA is currently looking for committee members For the mid level administrators steering committee. In 2022, NASPA established the mid level administrators A steering committee to partner with NASPA staff to shape the ongoing development of NASPA's mid level initiatives. Christopher Lewis [00:23:17]: The steering committee works To ensure that mid level relevant programs are offered during regional and national events, NASPA's mid level administrator steering committee Strives to encourage excellence in the mid level positions through professional development, knowledge creation and sharing, networking opportunities, and recognition aimed at the roles of mid level administrators. The steering committee is comprised of 24 mid level administrators who serve at A wide variety of institutional types throughout NASPA's 7 regions. Steering committee members will serve staggered to your terms. If this sounds like something that you're interested in, I highly encourage you to go to the NASPA website to learn more about this. Typically, the time commitment is about 2 to 3 hours per month. I highly encourage you to consider this. Think about it as an opportunity to be able to give back to the association And help to steer NASPA toward providing quality professional development opportunities for mid level professionals. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. Christopher Lewis [00:24:23]: So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within One of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself Where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself In that knowledge community, I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to Think beyond what's available right now to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, All of us are stronger, and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:44]: Another wonderful NASPA world segment from you, producer Chris. Thank you again and again for giving us the updates on what's going on in and around NASPA. Alright. Isu, we have come to our lightning round. I have 7 questions for you to answer in about 90 seconds. You ready? Yisu Zhou [00:26:01]: Wow. I'm ready. Yes. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:03]: Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Yisu Zhou [00:26:09]: It's gotta be Oasis. I've been a fan since 1994. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:13]: Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up? Yisu Zhou [00:26:17]: A scientist. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:18]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Yisu Zhou [00:26:21]: I gotta be my PhD supervisor, Amita Sugar. Professor Sugar, if you're listening, you really made my world. You've taught me about professionalism with and care to the student, a true role model. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:33]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Yisu Zhou [00:26:36]: I think any educator will benefit and read from John Dewey. I've been rereading Dewey a lot for our research project. And for nonfiction, actually, this summer, I've been reading a lot of La La Gwynne. She's my favorite American author, and her fantasy series, Earthsea, really gives this kind of a feminist kind of a perspective about how to approach different people. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:55]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Yisu Zhou [00:26:59]: The slow horses on Apple TV starring Gary Old man. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:03]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Yisu Zhou [00:27:07]: Okay. There are 2. So there is a Chinese podcast. It's called left You're right. It's a very good conversational kind of intellectual podcast. The English podcast I spend most of time I think it's from NPR. I'm a big fan of their all sounds considerate Podcast. I've been I've been following them for over a decade. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:23]: And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? Yisu Zhou [00:27:27]: I wanna give a shout out to my student, my master and PhD student. No matter if if you are crunching numbers in your little cube or doing field interviews or working on Guys, I hope really hope that you've been enjoying the studies in these universities or anywhere in the world. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:43]: It's been a wonderful and donating conversation today. I know I learned a lot from you. I'm sure that others have as well. If anyone would like to contact you after the show, how can they find you? Yisu Zhou [00:27:52]: I think the easiest way is to To search my name, Yisu Zhou on Twitter. I have a Twitter handle. You can also send me an email by, [email protected]. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:00]: Thank you so much, Isoo, for sharing your voice with us today. Yisu Zhou [00:28:03]: Really happy to be here. Thank you for hosting me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:07]: This has been an episode of SA voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd Like to reach the show, you can always email us at essay voices at NASPA.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show, and please like, rate, and review us on Apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:47]: This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill L. Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Assistance by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this episode of "Student Affairs Voices from the Field," Dr. Jill Creighton welcomes Brian Medina, the director of Bias Incident Support Services at the University of Maryland, College Park, for a conversation on transitions in Student Affairs. Brian, an openly queer genderqueer and Latinx sexual assault survivor with multiple disabilities, discusses zir journey and experiences. Brian started zir career in student affairs in resident life and student conduct, eventually transitioning into the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) space. They emphasize the importance of authenticity and finding one's true self in the workplace, highlighting the role of supportive colleagues and institutions in this process. They also share zir experience of transitioning in terms of gender presentation, including using gender-neutral pronouns (zee/zir) and embracing a more authentic self, both personally and professionally. Brian's journey has been marked by self-discovery, self-acceptance, and gaining the confidence to bring zir full self to work, which has been transformative. Brian discusses the evolving landscape of bias response work in higher education and its intersection with Title IX regulations. They emphasize the importance of building solidarity across different identities and experiencing intersectionality in tackling power-based violence. The conversation also touches on the regional differences in student affairs work and the impact of state legislation on diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts in higher education. Brian reflects on zir transition from a career in residence life to DEI work, highlighting the challenges and successes along the way. They acknowledge the frustrations of job searching and the importance of resilience in navigating the field. As co-chair elect of the NASPA Gender and Sexuality Knowledge Community (KC), Brian talks about the KC's activities and its commitment to expanding its reach by collaborating with other KCs, fostering inclusivity, and encouraging involvement from a diverse range of professionals in the field. Brian wraps up the conversation by encouraging listeners to embrace transitions as part of life's journey and to remember the resilience and progress made by previous generations in creating a more inclusive world. Overall, this episode explores the theme of transitions in higher education, emphasizing the importance of authenticity, self-discovery, and solidarity in the field of student affairs. It also highlights the evolving nature of diversity, equity, and inclusion work and the significance of regional context in higher education. Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season nine on transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your essay Voices from the Field host on today's episode of Essay Voices, I'm pleased to bring you a delightful conversation with Brian Medina. Pronouns z here. Hears. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:31]: Brian has been a social justice activist within higher education for nearly two decades. Brian has worked in New Hampshire, Maryland, Ohio, and is now the director of Bias Incident Support Services at the University of Maryland, College Park. As an openly queer genderqueer and Latinx sexual assault survivor with multiple disabilities, zee advocates for marginalized communities to center those harmed by systemic oppression and trauma. Brian is also the co chair elect of the NASPA gender and sexuality knowledge community. Brian. Welcome to the pod. Brian Medina [00:01:04]: Thank you. Lovely to be with you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:06]: I'm so glad to talk to you today about your transition story. When we reached out to the KC leaders in NASPA, your response was one of the ones that immediately stood out because you've had so many experiences with transition in the last couple of years and we always love to start by getting to know our guests. You're at UMD now you're also leading in the KC space. So what was your come up both in the student affairs realm as well as in the KC realm? Brian Medina [00:01:31]: Thank you for asking. Brian Medina z here and heres and coming up through resident life and student conduct and then also now being in the De I space, the last three years have certainly been a journey. I wouldn't have said if you asked me when I first started my career where I would end up. This would be where it would be. And I'm so grateful and delighted that I can be in this space, particularly, actually, in some ways, very connected, the KC space. I started out with the gender and sexuality casey, different name at the time. And then have been involved with multiple other tam KC. Menamasculinities KC. Brian Medina [00:02:06]: And trying to really see the kind of connectedness of not just the work that I do, but my full existence and my dignity and an authentic self, not just at work, but beyond as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:38]: One thing you just introduced really resonates with me, which is how do you find your authentic self and feel like you can show up with your whole being at work every day? You mentioned your pronouns are z here, hears. And then also when you reached out to us, you let us know you've had some transitions in your gender presentation in the last couple of years. So I'm wondering if you're willing to tell us about how that impacted your ability to show up at work finally as your whole self and also what you want the profession to know about supporting other professionals who are going through that transition. Brian Medina [00:03:07]: It's a wonderful question. Thank you. For me, over the past decade or more, I have been out as genderqueer. I've been using these pronouns z here and heres for about eight of those years. And I will say that it's been mostly in the last three, three and a half years. Although, obviously, that's overlapping with our COVID existence. That being in space, certainly virtually, but in physical space with folks to explore a bit about, my body to check in with and fortunately, with my university, my supervisor, my colleagues. Have been so supportive and really showing up for me and alongside me in zir own authentic selves, thus giving me in some way, some invitation and welcoming space. Brian Medina [00:03:46]: So, yeah, the last couple of years have certainly been an exploration of I'm extending myself with I wear dresses now exclusively. And I wouldn't have said that four or five years ago, wearing dangly earrings, as I have on right now, and I wouldn't have said that a few years ago. And for me, it has been a combination of both the opportunity and the kind of welcoming space that I have at my current institution. But I will say that some of it has come more internally of feeling confident to be able to bring my full self and share and support various populations on campus in a different way. And it has been the best part of my life over these last couple of years, for sure. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:20]: Part of our theme of transitions on this season of the Pod is really thinking about transitions from all perspectives. And you are really our first guest who's come on this season to talk about that internal transition as the biggest driver for other areas of success. So let's hear more about what that internal transition has done for you in terms of your professional development internally. Brian Medina [00:04:42]: I think another factor that I want to make mention here is that I'm also a student in the School of Social Work at the University of Maryland, Baltimore, and that has coincided a good bit with my work related activities and certainly my responsibilities. I'm in charge of all bias response for the entire campus. And I will say that showing up in classroom settings, in one sense, showing up in work settings has caused me to reflect right, not just on an intellectual basis, but a true connection with my body, checking in with other folks and how they're feeling in space as we talk about marginalization writ large. And so that internal processing for me has been ongoing, for sure it has been over decades. But I will say the last couple of years I've had the encouragement and the kind of exploration also with a really good therapist and some good friends who've checked in on me and kind of allowed me that space to be able to express myself and therefore I'm much more readily interested and be able to explore that with them as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:36]: I think the work you're doing at UMD is really difficult work. Right. You're looking into all areas of bias, and we've seen a lot of transition in the way that we're managing our university and institutional responses to that work in the last couple of years. And we're also expecting a major Title IX rule drop to change and rock our worlds one more time. I'm really crossing my fingers. It's the last time that doed makes that happen. But can you talk about your transitions in that space as well, given the way we talk about bias and response to bias now is just really different than even the way we would have framed it in 2013. Brian Medina [00:06:10]: Yeah, my first inclination and thinking is as you're referencing the regulations coming out for Title Nine soon, and in 2011 when I first really started doing work around sexual misconduct and sexual response, sexual assault response, that was kind of on the earlier days of me even coming out as a survivor of sexual violence. And so thinking about that transition coming out in a different lens than it would be in a queer space, and then kind of maybe a couple of years later sharing about my gender identity and sexual orientation as well, I think they really combined. And it was at a time and place, I think, in our society where there was a lot of momentum and drive to make change, but also maybe a lot of confusion as to what that meant. We got this guidance, but what does that apply? How do we actually launch programs and offices and Title IX offices? And even for De and I spaces, many offices didn't see the interrelationship of power based violence, sexual violence, as well as how that affected queer folks, BIPOC folks very uniquely. So, I will say over these last couple of years in that space, specifically in this kind of back and forth. Back and forth because of administrations and certainly across the country, many states who are enacting legislation to harm a whole host of populations, including trans folks. I will say that I think the center of mine for me has been building solidarity across difference rather than this simply being a movement inside one's identity, but across identities, folks that experience similar harms. So I'll use the comparison with sexual violence work. Brian Medina [00:07:43]: Being a survivor, I've actually been a volunteer for the largest national group, reign as a sexual violence hotline. I've been a volunteer for eleven years there, and that work and supporting survivors uniquely on a hotline like that has been so instrumental for me to be able to hold space, provide space, resources, checking in with folks who are experiencing other identity based harms like anti blackness, like anti trans sentiment on our campuses. So I see them as very much connected as how we address trauma by holding space and support for folks uniquely in zir identities, but also seeing that we are more full amongst one another rather than just in ourselves. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:24]: You've transitioned also all over the country. You've been in the Midwest and the East Coast and a couple of other places. Do you see the work shifting its orientation or its priorities as you move around the country? Brian Medina [00:08:36]: Absolutely. And I think that many of my peers and friends in the field would acknowledge that depending on what state you're in or region of the country you're in, not only does the state legislation afford or deny you opportunities, and access within your identities and your existence. It also kind of more broadly provides either a chilling effect or an emboldening effect for folks to make change, to do programmatic risks that maybe they wouldn't have taken some other spaces. So I'll note a couple of pieces. When I first started off in resident life, it was up in New Hampshire, a very white space, but also progressive in some areas around sustainability, not so much around racial justice. And so I really entangled that because most of our students of color were student athletes and trying to navigate how to support students uniquely in zir identities but also seeing the friction that they're finding in the community was very much top of mind. And that actually aligned very similarly to my experience in Ohio in a very rural white space. Whereas in Maryland, being a much more perceivably progressive state, I found a much different experience where folks were much more open, interested in gaining resources and also promoting a bit more progressive ideals to support marginalized populations than I had in the other spaces. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:49]: That must really shift where you put energy in terms of training for your campus community and also how you're able to frame responses. So with that all kind of put together, what is the common thread between all of those experiences? Brian Medina [00:10:05]: I don't know if I can pull out one specific common thread. One of the things that I came to find early on in the career. Granted, I was in resident life spaces and so I was often doing social justice or de. And I work on the side either for RA trainings or for recruitments, doing programming, advising on the side from what folks perceived as a generalist position that I had to do many other things. And I'd say that that common thread of showing empathy, compassion, concern for the other. I was also a philosophy major, so I should share that from the share there from the get go that as a philosophy major I was always intuiting and thinking through and processing and reflecting. And now as a social work student, kind of that common thread around psychology and caring for full well being, if there is a common thread, it really is seeing the fullness of one of many of society as interconnected and there be no way for us to completely disconnect that from one another. And so in these various career points I would say that De I and social justice was a common thread, even if it wasn't my actual position, responsibility. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:10]: Societal structures and pressures are fairly consistent within the culture of the United States. They can be similar to neighboring countries. I can tell you from my own experience living in Asia now our structures around justice and our concepts around justice, marginalization, oppression, they don't apply at all here. It's the wildest thing to break my brain in that way and to stop looking at certain situations through my Americanized justice perspective has been a real interesting challenge. And I've come to the conclusion that dei work is so important in the US. Because of the structures of the way the organizational kind of hierarchies are created in the US. And then when I got here, it was like square pay, ground hole. Some of the concepts are similar in terms of wealth, wealth gap and things like that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:55]: But the idea of race is different here because it is kind of a fairly monoracial society. Ethnicity plays a much larger role. Individual achievement stands out even though it's a collectivist society. It's so fascinating. So it's interesting to hear you talk about it from that lens as well. I wanted to hear more about your transition from a res life professional to deib professional. More or less that res life space is one you occupied for 15 years, and a lot of times it can be both difficult from a job search perspective and difficult from an emotional perspective to leave res life and to go into other areas of higher education. So tell us about that. Brian Medina [00:12:31]: I appreciate this invitation and in all vulnerability and honesty, that road was filled with potholes and filled with roadblocks and filled with turns and detours. If you would have asked me when I first started my career if I would have been in res life for 15 years, I would have said absolutely not. That didn't make any sense, there's no way. But as I continued to grow in that, being on call was always a challenge. But I will say that I adapted to it. Different institutional structures. Being going from a smaller private liberal arts college in New Hampshire to then a more mid sized institution of Towson University in Maryland allowed me, I think, a different perspective because there's a much different resourced institution, public institution. I will say that part of my journey, because of thinking about this and around going to De I work specifically at Towson. Brian Medina [00:13:20]: That was where I came out in a lot of settings. That's where I found student groups that even though I wasn't a student, I was advising a couple of student groups within the queer community. I was attending social justice retreats and then helping to facilitate them. And so I think that even though I was very heavily as a position as a resident life director, being in Res Life, I was very much tapped into the ethos and the mores of deib in a way that I don't think most of my peers had access to. And that was a privilege that I had, but also something I sought after. Folks had kind of encouraged me and mentored me. I will say, as I continued through my Res Life career going on to be Assistant Director, then Director, associate Dean in Res Life, each of those elements of social justice had a ring to it, but it was mostly in those other institutions because they were smaller. Me bringing it to those institutions rather than me learning as I had at Towson and now being at University of Maryland, being the largest state school in the state, being at a place know, recently give them a little bit of props, they recently were named number one for LGBT students. Brian Medina [00:14:18]: Acceptance across the country from the Campus Pride Index. To see that there's not only an acceptance and embrace about who I am and my fullness, but also that students can get that experience also brings me joy. So I'll say that some of that transition from Res Life to Edib was organic in its own. And if I were to admit to you, I applied to many Res Life jobs to be a senior leader within ResLife and got turned down. And so there's much about failure as it was success throughout the process. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:49]: That's a really important message in that job search transition. There are so many reasons that maybe the universe is pointing us in some directions sometimes, and other times it's just really, really frustrating. So I just want to give a shout out to all of you who are trying to make that next move up in the student affairs funnel. It is a real, real challenge when you're moving from that mid level professional and that assistant and associate director to that director space, because that funnel gets really, really tight at that level of organization. So I just want to cheer you on a little bit and let you know that I empathize. I understand. Brian Medina [00:15:18]: And you got this agreed. We can do this together. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:21]: I want to chat a little bit about the gender and sexuality. Casey, you're currently occupying a co chair seat. Can you tell us more about the hopes for this year's KC activities, what spaces you're providing, and really how listeners and NAFA members can also find authentic space for themselves in the KC? Brian Medina [00:15:41]: I would certainly shout out to Antonio and Clint, our current KC chairs. I'm actually the chair elect. I'll be taking on this starting in March. But a lot of those responsibilities we've been sharing throughout this year as a know, as a small group that have really cared for one another, not just in terms of the tasks that we do for conferences and programs and receptions that is all important, but really holding space for each other throughout the year. When something is tragic on one campus, it's tragic for the rest of us as well and also uplifting. So going back to the job search process, when we see folks promoted or getting new positions, we also hold folks in that celebration and joy. One of the things that I'm really looking forward to in the gender and sexuality Casey is the expansion for us to connect with other KCS in collaborations. So the last few KC chair rotations have been a building up of that of building relationships with the Latinx Aokc, indigenous peoples, KC Wisa, women XKC, and to be able to see us as a gender sexuality KC be as kind of a point to various intersectional identities. Brian Medina [00:16:43]: To hold space within the KC, but also across NASPA and different other KC spaces has been a joy. I anticipate even more so as the years to come. So that's one of the target interests that I have. So folks listening out there want to get involved and they're eh this KC may be all one identity or maybe kind of stereotypically all gay white men. It is very much not at this point and certainly won't be in the future. We're recruiting a lot of folks and we'd love to have you as a part of that revolution toward more broadening of queerness. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:12]: You also did an Essay Speaks very recently. Can you tell us, especially for those who are unfamiliar first, what is Essay speaks and how can folks find your conversation? Brian Medina [00:17:22]: Essay Speaks starting with what it is. It really is equivalent to what a Ted Talk would look like. So it's a ten to twelve minute talk. It's an opportunity for presenters. Rather than sharing kind of research or anything like that, it's really integrating our stories of who we are alongside kind of takeaways for audience members. And this is at the annual conference itself. So this past year in Boston and April I did share that from the topic of embodying gender fluidity, which in some ways is very relevant to the topic we're talking about in transition. I shared a bit of my journey over the course of my career and how I presented myself in my gender, how my gender fluidity and gender queerness have shown up in workspaces, but also other spaces given interest to anybody in the audience, those that are listening. Brian Medina [00:18:05]: And the video is out there if you want to check it out. NASPA has that available for folks to explore on zir own campuses, where they can advocate alongside zir trans non binary colleagues and students seeking some opportunities for healing. But also some joy along the ride. So I really encourage, if folks want to check that out, please do. So. Going into just sharing about that experience, jill and I shared off script a little bit about how different, how so much goes beyond the production and so much goes into the planning of this was a nine month planning cycle of creating a twelve minute sharing of one soul and heart. And so for me, it was a lot of work. I also have multiple disabilities, but one disability impacts my speaking when I'm public speaking. Brian Medina [00:18:47]: And so for me to put myself out there on the stage with hundreds watching, other thousands perhaps watching at home at some point was super nerve wracking, especially when a lot of complications happen last minute. So I just want to firm for those folks out in the audience that may be fearful to do these kind of speaking engagements. I am with you. I was there, and I certainly encourage you if you would like to have another support as you're exploring this opportunity to tell your story and who you are in your fullness. I would love to be there alongside you for that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:16]: Brian, any other thoughts on the theme of transitions in higher ed or for yourself as a human? Brian Medina [00:19:22]: I guess I'd love to share a little bit about how transitions, fluidity, as I just was talking about gender, fluidity transitions are happening all the time, right? We talk about transitions for our students coming in and off campus, graduating and going off about zir lives, transitions for us in the job market, transitions as I shared about gender and understanding how I present myself. But I want to encourage so much of our talk about transitions, talk about the tense, the tenseness and kind of feeling of anxiety that is present there. It's the fear, and some of it rightfully so because of our world and how much we can be harmed in that transition and showing who we are. But I also never want to forget how much we are taking upon our ancestors to get to where we are today. The transition of a more human wide transition to be in a place and space where I can be who I am and be present even on this podcast with you and alongside you is dedicated to many of those folks well before me, marcia P. Johnson, Silvio Revellitrera, who could be kind of conduits and revolutionaries in zir own right. I would love to for the next generation to see many folks alongside me, not just me, but to provide transition opportunities and emboldening us to be better and do better for our work. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:35]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Christopher Lewis [00:20:41]: Thanks so much, Jill. Glad to be back in the NASPA world. And as always, there's a ton happening in our association, and I'm really excited to be able to share some of these things with you. One of the first things that I wanted to share with you is that the 18th Manassa NASPA Conference will be hosted by Qatar University April 20 eigth to April 30, 2024. Right now, the call for programs is open, and the conference registration is open, and the early registration is open until January 31. The Manassa NASPA Conference provides student affairs practitioners with the knowledge and skills to effectively address and support college students. Higher education is witnessing a wide array of changes, especially in the era of fast technological evolution. This conference coming up. Christopher Lewis [00:21:36]: The theme of it is Student Affairs changes and Challenges in the Era of Emerging Technologies. It's a three day conference put on by NASPA and the Middle East, North Africa and South Asia or Manassa area. This is an opportunity to connect with colleagues both regionally and abroad, and the conference provides you with a space for discussing innovative ideas, adaptive approaches, use of technology, best practices, lessons learned, and provide tools to understand the next generation of student affairs. Definitely want to take advantage of the early registration rates that are open right now, and if your campus is in the Manassa region and would love to be considered for the 2025 Manassa NASPA Conference, the bid for that conference is currently open as well. You can find out more about this conference on the NASPA website and the bid for the 2025 hosting of the conference. Deadline for that is on February 15, 2024. You can find the Manassa NASPA Conference campus host Bid, the secure platform on the NASPA website. You can put in a bid right there to be able to be considered. Christopher Lewis [00:22:59]: The Fall 2023 Leadership Exchange magazine has been sent out. If you didn't see the email or haven't checked it out yet, I really encourage you to check it out. The theme of this issue is consolidation. Fosters collaboration. Advancing student success at a newly integrated institution. Inside of this issue, you're going to see a ton of great articles that are tailored to Vice Presidents for Student Affairs and other leaders in Student Affairs administration. Even if you're not at that level, I still encourage you to read the articles in this. They will challenge you, they'll push you, and they will encourage you to think about things in a different way. Christopher Lewis [00:23:40]: Also inside of this issue, you're going to find conversations about the college mental health cris. Also, you'll be able to learn what it's like to be a Vice President for Student Affairs through the lens of four new VPSAs and also thinking about holistic advising approaches to student success. This and more are a part of this Leadership Exchange, and I really encourage you to go and check it out for yourself. Go to the NASPA website, click on Publications, and go to the Leadership Exchange magazine. Christopher Lewis [00:24:13]: We're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Because the association is as strong as its members and for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit? Where do you want to give back? Each week. We're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in. That knowledge, community. I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Christopher Lewis [00:25:33]: Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:37]: Another fantastic NASPA World segment. Producer Chris, we continue to appreciate you and all of your work to keep us informed on what's going on in and around NASPA. Brian, we have reached our lightning round. I have seven questions for you in about 90 seconds. Ready to do it? Brian Medina [00:25:52]: I love it. Let's do it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:53]: All right. Number one, if you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Brian Medina [00:25:58]: The entrance music that I already use. Crawling by Lincoln Park. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:02]: Number two, when you were five years old, what did you want to be when you grew up? Brian Medina [00:26:05]: I wanted to be a soccer star. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:07]: Number three, who's your most influential professional mentor? Brian Medina [00:26:10]: My former supervisor, Brenda Ice. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:12]: Number four, your essential student affairs. Read. Brian Medina [00:26:16]: Student affairs must read. I would have to say cast by Isabel Wilkerson. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:22]: Number five, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Brian Medina [00:26:25]: I have to admit that I haven't been watching many full shows lately, but I am a sucker for any historical docuseries, so please send your recommendations. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:34]: Number six, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Brian Medina [00:26:39]: While I clearly love the SA Voices podcast, I also want to give a shout out to a friend of mine, Tracy Guy Decker, who recently developed a podcast called Deep Thoughts about Stupid Stuff but replaced the word stuff with something we're not allowed to say on the air. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:54]: And finally, number seven, any shoutouts you'd like to give, personal or professional? Brian Medina [00:26:58]: Always love to give shout outs to my peers and friends in the gender, sexuality, casey and other Casey's, and certainly. To my partner for continuing to hold space for me as I have shared my fullness on this podcast and beyond. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:10]: Ryan, I'm sure there are many listeners who would love to chat with you after the show airs. How can they find you? Brian Medina [00:27:15]: I'm less on social media. I would love to hear. If you'd like to send a long letter, send it snail mail or you can send an email at bamadina at. Umd.edu. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:28]: Ryan, it's been such a pleasure to talk with you. I always love getting to know other leaders in NASPA. There's so many of us, we don't always get to connect. So I want to say thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Brian Medina [00:27:38]: Thank you so much, Jill. It's been a pleasure. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:41]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field, brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L. Craighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:10]: And please, like, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, spotify or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible role in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill L. Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:29]: Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to Duke Kunshan University and the University of Michigan, Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this episode of "Student Affairs Voices from the Field," Dr. Jill Creighton discusses transitions in Student Affairs with her guest, Dr. Chrissy Roth Francis, who made the leap from student affairs to a career in the tech industry. The episode highlights the challenges and opportunities faced by student affairs professionals considering a pivot into adjacent roles. Dr. Creighton emphasizes the importance of this discussion, acknowledging the diverse experiences within the field. Dr. Chrissy Roth Francis shares her journey through higher education, starting as an involved undergraduate student, pursuing a master's degree at New York University, and eventually landing a dream job at the University of Southern California, where she worked with international students. She later became the Director of New Student Services at UC Berkeley, overseeing orientation for a growing number of students. However, the transition to a "welcome week" structure became a significant challenge and contributed to her decision to pivot out of higher education. The conversation delves into why Dr. Roth Francis chose to pivot into the corporate world, specifically in talent development at LinkedIn. She highlights the transferable skills gained in higher education, such as problem-solving, strategic planning, and public speaking, which have proven valuable in her new role. Dr. Creighton discusses the various options available to student affairs professionals, including staying in the field, changing the field from within, or pursuing opportunities outside higher education. Dr. Roth Francis emphasizes the need for clear boundaries and work-life balance in her new career, a departure from the long hours and weekend commitments common in student affairs. She discusses the practicality of her decision, citing the desire for a better lifestyle and higher income as motivating factors. Both hosts express appreciation for student affairs professionals and the essential work they do in supporting students. The episode concludes with a discussion of career trajectories, with Dr. Roth Francis sharing her experience of initially taking a step down in her career to gain experience in the corporate world. She highlights the importance of recalibrating and expanding one's skill set while also acknowledging the financial benefits of her decision. Dr. Creighton emphasizes the need for higher education to adapt and connect with industry to prepare students with the skills necessary for success. She encourages SA professionals to explore all available options, connect with others who have made similar transitions, and conduct thorough research before making career decisions. In summary, this episode provides valuable insights for student affairs professionals considering career transitions, whether within or outside higher education, and highlights the importance of self-care and financial well-being in making such decisions. Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season nine on transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your essay, Voices from the Field. Host today's episode of Essay Voices from the Field is one for all of you who are considering a pivot into an industry that takes your well earned and well honed student affairs skills into adjacent roles.  Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:37]: So I'm pleased to introduce you today to Dr.Chrissy Roth Francis, who is a loud and proud former student affairs professional. In 2018, with a master's, a doctorate and eleven years of higher ed experience, she packed up her diplomas, conference name tags and pictures of orientation teams. She shed some tears and then ventured into the tech industry with her eyes and ears wide open. Chrissy is now the Director of Talent Development at LinkedIn, where she leads a team that onboards and develops the company's 3500 people managers. Chrissy has been an outspoken voice on LinkedIn for higher ed expats and for those still working on college campuses, but considering a pivot elsewhere. I want to acknowledge the importance of today's episode in Centering, the total experience of being a student affairs professional. For all of us who are thriving on our campuses, this is an episode that we're hoping you can hear where others are positioned for transition. And for those of you who are figuring out that maybe you are looking for other opportunities, maybe this one can be practical for you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:33]: But to all of you, we appreciate you and all of the work you're doing to support our students on all campuses worldwide. Chrissy, we're so glad to have you on SA voices today. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:01:43]: So happy to be here. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:44]: We know each other through a mutual friend, dDr. Kelly Alvarado Young. So I'm going to give her a shout out right now. Kelly and I work together at WSU. So Kelly, if you're listening, hello. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:01:54]: Hey, Kelly, Chrissy, we really love to. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:56]: Start with getting to know our guests through your very excellent come up story. We'd love to hear your journey through higher ed and also the journey to your position now. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:02:06]: So happy to share it. Jill thank you for having me. My journey starts like almost everybody's journey in Student affairs. I was an undergrad. I was a super involved student. I love doing all the things at my college. And at some point I had that moment where somebody pulled me over and said, I think you should consider this as a professional. Go get a master's degree. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:02:26]: And I didn't know anything and I said, okay, let's go for it. Right? Like that story is very true for so many of us. Ended up getting a master's degree from New York University. Fantastic way to continue my involvement in a college and a university setting. Learned so much working all across that area. And then I ended up getting an incredible job at the University of Southern California. I really think this was the dream job that any entry level professional like me could only hope for. It was in the orientation space, but specifically it was working for international students. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:03:04]: So I had the honor of getting to onboard every new student to that university, but having a focus on students coming from all over the world and learning so much from them as they shared with me their cultures. I stayed several years at USC, and then I was ready for the big job. Ended up getting the big job at UC Berkeley, where I was the director of New Student Services. So still in the orientation space, which I really loved, this was the space that I focused on as an undergrad. Stuck with it all throughout my time in higher education. So when I was at UC Berkeley, I oversaw orientation for what started out as about 6000 students when I got there in 2013, 6000 students annually. By the time I left in 2018, we were onboarding about 10,000 students annually. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:00]: That's quite a scale up. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:04:02]: Yeah, it was a big transition over several years. But the biggest transition of that time was that when I got there, we had a summer orientation. So you all know the glory. Small groups cranking out session after session all throughout the summer. And at one point our higher up administration decided, let's go ahead and change it to a welcome week. Typically, welcome week orientations are only seen on very small campuses, medium campuses at the biggest. Definitely not common among large public universities. That was, I believe, to this day, one of the biggest challenges I will ever see in my career was shepherding our entire campus through a two year transition to get us to be able to successfully onboard 10,000 students in a welcome week structure. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:04:56]: It was a great endeavor. I had so much fun learning how to do it. And I'm not going to lie, it took everything out of me. And it is not at all a coincidence that I left soon after doing that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:07]: So I think you're talking about what a lot of us are facing in higher education, which is extraordinary shifts in our work, high expectations from all of those around us, and likely working with some fairly limited resources. And this is all pre pandemic. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:05:24]: Yes. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:25]: So thinking about that and your journey, can you talk a little bit about what led you to pursuing the Pivot that you did? So we hear about higher education professionals going all sorts of places, customer success, sales, talent and development. The list is actually fairly long because our skills end up being quite transferable if we package them well. So how did you decide on L and D? Chrissy Roth Francis [00:05:48]: Yes, so you're absolutely right. When I was in higher education, I saw all those constraints all the constraints that probably all of us feel and see in the field and throughout my time there. Because of those constraints, I very much attribute my skills and my experiences to those constraints. So because of those constraints, I built up this massive portfolio of skills problem solving, navigating, tough times, working with stakeholders, public speaking. What about large scale programming with very little money, training leaders, switching directions because of politics or because of a strategic change in the university? All those things, right? Because of constraints and because of the skills and experiences that I accumulate, I believe it helped me be quite successful pivoting into the corporate world. So I now work, as you know, at LinkedIn in learning and development, talent development, where I get to leverage many of those skills that I use on a daily basis in higher education. So when I think about onboarding new students, we onboard new employees to LinkedIn every single week. When I think about training those student leaders on a weekly or a monthly basis at UC Berkeley and University of Southern California, I get to train people at LinkedIn also on a weekly basis. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:07:10]: When I think about problem solving, event planning, strategic planning, all the things that we used to do, I get to do that at LinkedIn all the time. So what I learned was that the skills were very much transferable. If anything, I very truly, strongly believe that we develop more skills in higher ed than probably any other industry. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:33]: That's a bold statement. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:07:34]: Oh, I mean it. I really do mean it, because given those constraints, we wear so many hats, and we have learned to be so successful and so resourceful with very few resources. And in other industries where you have the resources, you don't need to be that scrappy. You don't need to be so resourceful. You don't need to stretch yourself in all the different directions. So I do mean it, Joel, and I know it is a bold statement. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:59]: I really appreciate kind of hearing the confidence boost of the transferability of skills. I'm wondering if we can back up a little bit and talk about you said that it had taken everything out of you, and I think a lot of us can relate to how that feeling is. Sitting with many parts of the profession right now. There are some of us that are choosing to persist forward and power through that exhaustion. There are some of us who are looking to change the profession from within to make that not a thing as part of the culture of student affairs and higher education. And there are some of us who are going maybe there is greener grass in other places. I'm wondering if you can tell us about your decision to go for that third option rather than one of the first two. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:08:39]: Those are a great way to map out the three options. I have definitely been very public about my opting out for greener grass. And I think that all those options are fitting and perfect for whichever one that you want to choose. For me, it was a matter of I was recognizing that I wasn't living the lifestyle that I wanted to live. Meaning I had two little kids that I birthed when I was at UC Berkeley and I was struggling to find time with them between weekend trainings or night trainings, weekend retreats, or the three weeks straight where I nearly lived in the office because it was time for a welcome week. I also didn't make enough money, frankly, to really pay for my family and our growing needs. So for me, it was very practical. We were not able to do the things that we wanted to do. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:09:31]: I had been paycheck to paycheck my entire career, and now that I'm no longer paycheck to paycheck, I feel much more comfortable saying I was paycheck to paycheck. But back then, I don't think I was ever really free to verbalize how much of a struggle it was for me and my family to sustain on a higher education income. I also think about the people who are like, let's stay in, let's rise to the top, let's make it better, let's really fight to make higher education what it can be. And there are incredible people in higher education who I worked with closely, I adore, and they are in very high up positions, and I know that they are going to make the best that they can possibly do with the situation at hand. And by the way, I never even worked in higher education since COVID so I know it's only gotten more difficult for those people to be able to turn it around. For me, aside from the practicality of wanting a better lifestyle, I really left higher education because I didn't see a path forward for me, I loved working in orientation and I also knew that I wanted to keep climbing or keep moving around. And as I looked moving around, different types of jobs, not physically moving around, which also is very common in higher education. So when I thought about what could be next for me, I scanned my university, I scanned all other universities in the Bay Area, and I couldn't see or envision any jobs out there that would have been a pay increase, a level up, and that I would have appreciated or that I would have enjoyed. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:11:08]: So I looked at our Dean of Students, our VPSA, other high ups who I think most up and coming student affairs professionals aspire to become. And the more I worked with them and the closer I watched what their job was, the more I wanted to run away from that job. I just didn't want the crisis, I didn't want the budget woes, I didn't want a lot of the yuck that comes along with those jobs. And it takes a really special person to do those jobs and it simply wasn't for me. And that was how I really decided it was time to go find that greener grass outside of higher education. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:44]: Sometimes I call my portfolio trauma and drama. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:11:47]: It's a great description. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:48]: I wish it were not true. But part of the joy of the work is getting to hold space for students who really need an ear for their development. And then part of it too is caring for my well being and those things sometimes can't align, and then the question is what gives? And I think that's very true for a lot of people sitting in the CSAO or the Dean of Students seat. For me especially, I know that working with families of students who have passed away is the number one thing that weighs really heavy on my mind, on my heart, and on my mental health. And that is something they don't teach us how to do in graduate school. We figure it out along the way. And that is a special skill set and honestly, one that I wish I didn't have to have had developed over time because of what comes with it. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:12:33]: Jill, it's the perfect description of why you and people in like positions are so incredible and why I needed to bow out. I knew I didn't want to do it. I knew it wasn't right for me, and I don't even know if I would have been good at it because I didn't even want to give it a try. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:50]: So that transition space for you. I've heard you talk about this on a different podcast about being okay with a squiggly line for a career trajectory. Because in higher ed we often measure success by did you up level. And I don't know that that's a great measure of success because I also think in student affairs especially, we don't necessarily do a good job of succession planning from a skills up level. We teach people how to do their jobs and then we say, you're really good at your job. That means you must be ready for the next thing. We didn't necessarily develop the talent from a truly skills basis, whether it be management skills, leadership skills, scaling skills, all of those things. And so you've talked about it's okay to move, quote unquote, down a level or left, right, sideways, diagonally. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:38]: Tell us about that. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:13:39]: Absolutely. When I was in higher ed, as evidenced by my previous answer, I felt like I had to move up, had to out of pride, had to out of continually expanding my skill set and my opportunities, and also had to simply to garnish a higher salary. And what I learned was that there are other ways to be successful. And jumping outside of higher education, I knew that I was going to have to take at least a step down because I didn't have corporate industry experience. I didn't have the direct learning and development experience that HR professionals of six years had, even though I was much older and experienced than them. So I knew that I had to take a step down. I was a director and assistant dean at UC Berkeley when I left, and I knew that I wasn't going to become a director right away or I wasn't even going to be able to manage a team of individuals in the corporate world. So what stepping down allowed me to do was look at a variety of positions, take a lot of pressure off of me, and allow me to learn a brand new industry, expand my skill set, and really get comfortable in another space and also prove myself. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:14:56]: So I feel quite confident that because of the step down I took, I was able to launch myself a lot stronger and faster than other folks. So, yes, I needed the time to step down and recalibrate, but it very much paid off in the end. I will also say that my step down from higher education into the corporate world was leaps and bounds higher of a salary than anything I ever would have been making in higher education. So that, of course, made my step down a lot more palatable. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:29]: Thinking about all of the things that you did to transition, I know you've written a blog post I referenced, so I'll let folks know. Please check out Chrissy's blog on LinkedIn. It's called how higher ed pros can find greener grass by Dr. Chrissy Roth Francis. If you just Google for that, you'll be able to pull that blog up easily. Chrissy gives some really practical advice for those of you who are pivoting and if you want to go back and listen I think it was almost three or four seasons ago now. We did a crossover episode with the podcast pivoting out of with Dr. Jamie Hoffman, dr. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:58]: Tom Stuttert. They're both pivoters who took their doctoral degrees and entered the corporate worlds very, very successfully. So if this is you, please check those things out. Chrissy, I'm wondering if you can give us any advice for those that are persisting through the profession and know it's the right home for them. Things that you wish higher ed was doing now that you know what the corporate world is also doing. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:16:21]: There's just so many things, and I think for me, it starts out with folks in higher ed like me went to college, went to grad school, got all their jobs, and never left a college campus. So they don't have any clue what else is out there unless they have close friends or a spouse possibly, that work in the corporate world. So I've been quite surprised, happily surprised, by what I've seen outside of higher education. Things like people's well being are actually taken care of. Like, I shut down my laptop at 05:00 every day, and I don't worry about an on call or I don't have to work a weekend retreat. So for me, the work boundaries are much more firm and I don't have to worry about my student affairs life bleeding into my personal life. So that's a big deal is having people really be able to honor their boundaries and take care of themselves in a much more holistic way. You've heard me talk about salary quite a few times and when I was in higher education, I wasn't comfortable thinking that I deserved or that I needed a higher salary. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:17:34]: That to me was anti higher ed. Higher ed where we believe that we are sacrificing everything, including our family's lifestyles and our salaries to do the job. I would love to see people throughout all levels of higher education or education in general get paid much better commensurate with the work that they are actually doing, because the work is valuable and necessary and requires such a tremendous skill set and education that people should be paid accordingly. And I want to see that happen, which really means higher education needs to be restructured financially. And that's many more podcasts for you, Jill. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:13]: I think we just had an interesting conversation with Eric Stoller on kind of an adjacent topic and it was all about the transition and transformation of the digital space for higher education. And those two things for higher education to keep up with industry is going to be critical, especially because of the gradual but continual loss of faith in the value of higher education as a market for what people need to pursue after high school. We're seeing that decline happen in a lot of places, and for me, I believe that is because we've done a poor job of really telling the story of what an education can do or working in higher education can do. I'm still a firm believer. Higher education has a huge ROI, and that is because of the way it teaches you how to think about problems and solve problems with elasticity that you can't see if you go straight for other types of training. So that's the value for me, but we don't sell it well and we also aren't really connecting with industry well on what are the skills that students need to come out with with their degree in order to make it happen for them. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:19:10]: I think you hit it on the head right at the end there. It's that higher education is not connecting it with the industry. So we know what various industries need and are looking for, and higher education sometimes is a bit old school and traditional compared to what tech or other industries want. And when I think about a well rounded liberal arts education as a human being, I think that is absolutely the right way to go. I want someone who knows how to problem solve, who understands the history and who understands culture and different types of people. And when it comes to doing a job, some companies just want someone who knows how to code for example. And that's a gap, right? And I don't think either one is more right, but it is a gap that somebody needs to go ahead and be able to fill or at least sell how they're filling it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:01]: And I'll give it a shout out to our career services colleagues because I know that they are doing it and creating that bridge. Yes, for sure. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:20:07]: Absolutely. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:08]: Chrissy, any other thoughts for our SA pros who are both persisting through the profession or those who are really thinking that maybe it's time for a shift? Chrissy Roth Francis [00:20:17]: When I started thinking about leaving higher education, I believe I knew about five people who had successfully left higher education because nobody talked about it back then. So I left in 2018, and back then I wasn't able to have conversations with people and let them know, this is what I want to do, help me build the skills or help me build a network to get there. Now, I hope that higher education is at a place where it's more open and even this podcast is evidence of that, that we can talk openly about people's needs and desires or even just thoughts about leaving higher education. So what I want people to know is there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people who currently work in the corporate world from higher education. And you might not know us all because you're in your higher education bubble, but we are out there and we are thriving, and we are showing folks across various sectors that higher ed expats can do really well, and if anything, that we are incredible and we have an incredible skill set. So reach out to folks, get to know folks, learn what is out there. I didn't know any types of jobs. I didn't know different companies. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:21:32]: I didn't know anything when I was trying to get out there. And I wish back then that I had the network of higher ed expats that I do have now. So do your research. Take it as a second job for a few months and get to know people. Ask them what they do. Ask them about their company. Start learning about what you might want to do or what's important for you as you are looking to pivot out of higher education. And in those conversations, you might learn that, yes, indeed, it is time for you to jump out and you're going to learn some strategies on how to get out. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:22:07]: Or you might learn that you really love working in higher education and you do not want to leave. I've talked to people who were interested in Pivoting, and by the end of my conversation, I'm like, they are never going to leave, and they shouldn't leave because they got it going and they've figured it out. You need to make the best decision for you. And I just hope that you are able to make that decision based on all the data that you can accumulate. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:31]: And whether you are persisting in the profession or looking elsewhere. I want to express my gratitude to you personally for everything that you're doing to make student affairs and higher education a place that's really being the catalyst of change on our campuses and the safest places for the students. So thank you to all the out there. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:22:50]: Great job, everybody. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:51]: Keep it up. It's time to take a quick break. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:53]: And toss it over to producer Chris. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:55]: To learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Christopher Lewis [00:22:57]: Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back again in the NASPA world and as always, lots of things happening in this association really want to focus a little bit on some of the focus areas of NASPA. And many of you have been members of NASPA for a long time. You may think you know all that NASPA does, but I'll bet you that there are some things you might not know and some focus areas that you might not always be thinking about. Today, I would highly encourage you to go onto the NASPA website and there is a link at the top of the webput site, at the top of the website that says Focus Areas. If you go there, you're going to see that there are eight different areas that are focused on and NASPA is working to serve as a leading role in the innovations that are shaping the future of student affairs in many different areas. The focus areas that you're going to see on the website include career and workforce development, civic engagement, justice, equity, inclusion and diversity, student financial, wellness, health, safety and well being, policy and advocacy, student success, and supporting the profession. If you go under that tab on the website and you click on any of those different focus areas, you're going to learn more about each of the different areas. Christopher Lewis [00:24:23]: Each of those will be broken down and will allow for you to see different types of resources, different types of events, different types of blogs and awards that are available for you as a professional. So, for example, you click on Career and Workforce Development, you're going to see what that focus area is all about. You'll see some books that tie into that. You're going to see events that are specific to that specific focus area, some articles in the blog that are tied directly to that specific focus area, as well as some awards and initiatives that the association has that to encourage you to think about these focus areas in a different way. Again, not all of us are working in all of these different areas. Not all of us are thinking about these different areas. But through this resource on the NASPA website, you're going to be able to find out a lot more about what NASPA is doing, but also about resources that are available to you so that you can become more adept at these areas, as well as a better support for students in these areas. The other thing today that I'm going to talk about is a little bit of a breakdown of how NASPA is structured. Christopher Lewis [00:25:39]: All of you live in different areas of the world, and each of those areas is broken down into different regions and areas. And if you don't know what region you're in or what area that you are in based on where you live and what you do, I highly encourage you to go again to the NASPA website, click on Communities and go to Regions and Areas. And if you go to that, you're going to see that NASPA is broken down into regions within the United States that range everywhere from region one to region six. And you're going to find that of those regions, there are seven different areas because region four is broken down into east and west. Beyond that, there are two international areas that are broken down. The first is called the Lac or Latin America and Caribbean. And the other is Menasa, which is Middle East, North Africa and South Asia. If you want to find out more about what's happening in your region or what states are in your region, if there's specific things that are happening in the states that you live in, I encourage you to go and check out the regions or your area and learn more. Christopher Lewis [00:26:57]: Because there are directors of those regions, there are other leaders in those regions and areas that can help you, to connect you, to get you involved in different ways based on what's happening. And it's a great way to connect with people in your area that you can work with, on common goals, common vision, try to identify best practices, and more. Every week we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Because the association is as strong as its members and for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit, where do you want to give back? Each week. We're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in. That knowledge community. Christopher Lewis [00:28:18]: I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within. The association, because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:48]: Chris, once again, you're always such a wonderful voice for our NASPA World segment. Thank you for teaching us what's going on in and around NASPA. Chrissy, we have reached our lightning round on the show, which is about seven questions in 90 seconds. You ready to go? Chrissy Roth Francis [00:29:03]: It's timed. You didn't warn me it was timed. Okay, here we go. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:09]: We don't put like a 60 minutes ticker on the back end or anything. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:29:12]: I'm going to accept the challenge here. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:14]: All right. Number one, if you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Chrissy Roth Francis [00:29:18]: Thunder. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:19]: Number two, when you were five years old, what did you want to be when you grew up? Chrissy Roth Francis [00:29:23]: A mail Judy. And by that I mean our mail person. Her name was Judy, and I wanted to be her. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:29]: Number three, your most influential professional mentor. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:29:32]: I'm not going to say one. I'm going to say there are a collection of people that I look to for different reasons and in different capacities who all have inspired me in very different ways. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:43]: Number four, your essential higher education. Read. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:29:46]: You know what? I was always a very big fan of Schlossberg. We're talking about transition, and I worked in orientation, so for me it was all about schlossberg. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:54]: Number five, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:29:57]: I just finished watching. Is it still the pandemic? Does that count? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:02]: I think so now. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:30:04]: Okay. I just finished watching Suits. I have never binged such a long show because it is multiple seasons, multiple years. Great to actually learn what that show was all about. I loved it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:15]: Number six, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:30:19]: I am a big fan of Reed Hoffman's masters of Scale. Reed Hoffman is the founder of LinkedIn, and he features different companies who have really figured out how to get big very quickly. So it's been a great education for me to learn more about the corporate world. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:35]: And finally, number seven, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:30:39]: Shout out to everybody who is doing all the great work in higher education. Shout out to all those folks who have helped me along the way. Get out. And like you talked about Dr. Tom Stutter, so didn't mention earlier, he was actually my very first boss outside after I graduated with my master's. So it's quite fun that we have both ended up on this side. I'm going to give another shout out. I'm just going to go through all my people. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:31:04]: Andreen Kaibi, who was my very first boss, who actually encouraged me to go into higher education. And then lastly, I will say Dr. David Serat, who was a critical person for me in higher education as I considered leaving higher education. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:19]: It's been such a pleasure to have this conversation with you today, Chrissy. I'm sure that there are many others that would like to connect with you. How can folks find you after the show airs? Chrissy Roth Francis [00:31:28]: Y'all can find me on LinkedIn. You can find me at Dr. Chrissy Rothfrancis. I post a good amount on LinkedIn. A lot of it is targeted toward folks in higher education considering to get out of education. So find me on LinkedIn. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:41]: Thank you so much, Chrissy, for sharing your voice with us today. Chrissy Roth Francis [00:31:44]: It's been my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:47]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L. Craighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:16]: And please like rate and review us on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill L. Creighton SAP Mi. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:37]: Special thanks to Duke Kunchan University and the University of Michigan, Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this episode of "Student Affairs Voices From the Field," Dr. Jill Creighton welcomes Dr. Eric Stoller, the VP of Marketing and Digital Content at territorium, for a conversation about the evolving landscape of higher education and the role of technology in student affairs. They discuss various trends in higher education technology and how it impacts both academic and student affairs divisions. Dr. Stoller traces his journey from his early experiences as a marketing specialist at the University of Illinois, Chicago, to becoming a respected thought leader in the higher education technology space. He emphasizes how technology has become an integral part of the entire higher education experience, noting the importance of CRM tools, mobile apps, and the shift toward hybrid and remote learning during the pandemic. The conversation delves into the changing value of higher education credentials and the importance of measuring and verifying outcomes related to critical thinking, skills development, and employability. Dr. Stoller discusses the growing focus on micro-credentials, badges, and the idea of a learner's "digital wallet" to showcase skills and experiences. They also touch upon the need for interoperability in higher education technology and how data and analytics will play a more significant role in student affairs, helping institutions understand student needs and provide better support. The episode concludes with a discussion of the evolving role of student affairs in helping students navigate diverse pathways to success, emphasizing the need for personalized support and pathways for learners, regardless of whether they complete a degree. This episode sheds light on the transformative impact of technology on higher education and how student affairs professionals can adapt to these changes to better serve students in an evolving landscape. Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues! Transcript Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season nine on transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your essay, Voices from the Field host today on SA Voices, I'm pleased to bring you a conversation with Eric Stoller. Eric is the VP of Digital at territorium with over 20 years experience in higher education and education technology. As a Strategist writer and thought leader, he founded and led a global higher education consultancy from 2010 to 2019 and created the Student Affairs and Technology blog for Inside Higher Ed. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:46]: Previous Ed Tech roles include leadership positions at list. Ed tech element 451 and Gecko engage. Earlier in his career, he was an academic advisor at Oregon State University and a marketing specialist at the University of Illinois, Chicago. Eric. Earned an associate's degree, a BA in Communications and an EDM. In College student Services Administration. Eric, welcome to SA Voices. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:01:07]: Thanks so much for having me, Jill. Great to be here. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:09]: It's really great to see you. For our listeners, Eric and I met, I'm going to say 2005 maybe. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:01:16]: I think dinosaurs were just still roaming the earth. Yeah, it would have been 2004. Five Oregon State University in Corvallis, Oregon. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:25]: I think we were just escaping the trends of dial up internet and smartphones weren't smart yet in that time. So Eric and I actually worked together in the Office of Student Conduct when we were graduate students. So it's really lovely to see old friends and see careers blossom. And I'm really looking forward to talking about your transition today because I think you have a really unique one for someone who received their master's in Higher Ed. So would love to start with if you could tell us about your current position. And we always like to begin with a good come up story. How did you get to your current seat? Dr. Eric Stoller [00:01:57]: A good come up story, I love that. Well, so my current role is Vice President of Marketing and Digital Content at territorium, which is a global ed tech company that is all about bridging education to employability. And we'll probably get into that later on in the show. And it gets highly technical and I can't wait to dive into that. In terms of how I got into this seat, it is a long, winding story that started on a gravel road in Iowa, and I'm not going to bore your listeners with the full, you know, I went to community college, went to university. I thought I was kind of done with higher education. And then I actually started working at the University of Illinois at Chicago way back in the day in marketing and just loved the work. I was located within Student Services, and that's when I sort of first learned about what student affairs was even all about. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:02:42]: And was, as I am today, still very much into technology back then. And even I remember calling up Kevin Krueger, who's now the executive director for NASPA or the president of NASA. I'm not sure the exact titles nowadays, but Kevin and I had a conversation when I was very new to the field, and I said to him, why is the information Technology knowledge community, as it was known then, why is it gone? Because they had just gotten rid of it. And his first thought or question know, who are you? And I said, yeah, I'm just new professional, kind of bothering this leader of this association, or at the time, I think he was the associate director. Anyway, I went out to Oregon State, as you referenced, and I got my master's degree in higher education. Worked in a variety of different areas from enrollment management, financial aid, registrars, kind of a stint at Student conduct, was an academic advisor. And then during that time when I was an academic advisor, I started writing for Inside Higher Ed. I started the Student Affairs and Technology blog and just loved that experience as a writer for Inside Higher Ed. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:03:41]: And it was also at that time when I started getting invitations to go out and do some freelance work and consult for institutions and speak at events. So I stopped working full time for Oregon State and I became a consultant for nine years in the US, the UK and beyond, various global events and working with institutions all over the place. And the focus was all around digital engagement. This was when sort of social media was kind of coming into its own still and really focusing on how student affairs divisions could just transform what they were doing with all things digital. Because the origin story of student affairs is one that it was all about face to face, one on one experiences with students. And technology was seen because my Grad program, it was what, 2004, when I started, and technology was seen as this kind of gets in the way of that student experience. You fast forward to today, almost 20 years later, and the idea that technology would be separate from the student experience is something that people would never think about. It's really connected deeply. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:04:40]: And so I had this nine year experience as a freelancer, and then I started working for a higher ed chatbot company that was based in the UK and Scotland and did that for a little while, went back to Freelancing, and then I worked for a higher ed CRM company. You're getting kind of a theme here in terms of my Ed tech experience, right? Sort of chat bot to CRM. And then we moved to the Netherlands in 2022 from the US. And so I was doing Freelancing again, and a connection of my wife, professional connection, started talking to me about this potential marketing role at territorium, and they were launching their kind of US presence. territorium as a company has its origins in Monterrey, Mexico, and we're all over Latin America in terms of providing testing and a learning experience platform as well as our comprehensive learner record. But we hadn't really had as much of a presence in the US. And so we launched this US team back in December of last year that's for listeners on the call. I can't even do the math now. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:05:42]: Right? 2022. And so been with territorium since then and leading on all things marketing and digital combination of leading, strategy, producing, execution, go to market, a lot of things that are not part of our Master's degree program that Jill and I went through, but connected to both my undergraduate experience as a PR and marketing major. And then of course, my deep connections and network into higher education have kind of got me to this place. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:10]: So I'm going to just do a quick backup to a terms definition. You mentioned CRM, which might not be a term that's familiar to those in Higher Ed. Can you define that for us? Dr. Eric Stoller [00:06:18]: Of course. So this is where things really get interesting because as you know, every institution in the US kind of does things differently. If they're a college, they're a university, they're a community college. The structures, the systems, some institutions have divisions of student affairs, some have smaller sort of scale depending on their organization. But the one thing they all have in common is they all recruit students, they have admissions and they have recruitment. And whether they use a higher ed specific CRM, which is back in the day, it would have been a Customer Relationship Management tool, which is effectively how you keep track of who you're trying to recruit and communicate with them and engage them on a level from maybe they're a junior in high school or if they're an adult. Learner how you're connecting with those folks through a variety of communication vehicles like email, SMS or maybe a chat bot. How it's all interconnected. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:07:10]: So there's the Gargantuan CRMs out there like Salesforce or I happen to be working for Element 451, which is a much smaller shop, but they have quite a few clients as well. That's the CRM. I think the interesting thing about being in Higher Ed is I always say that you live in an acronym soup because you've got all the associations for higher education, all the different tools and platforms. You've got the SIS, the Student Information System. I mentioned the Comprehensive Learner Record, which is shortened down to Clr, which is a record of skills and experiences and credentials for learners. That goes far beyond the transcript because it goes inside the classroom and outside the classroom. So that's the clr. And so, yeah, if we need to, we can have a glossary of Terms attached to this podcast. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:07:53]: In terms of all the acronyms that I might mention, I think for Higher Ed pros, most of these things you're already familiar with, you just didn't know. That's what it was called in corporate land, but things you're quite familiar with. I think the one that we've been using lately is Slate in terms of our CRM for prospective students. It's quite a popular rising one right now. So you do know these things. You just maybe got a new term to associate with it. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:08:15]: I think if you work in enrollment management, if you're in the admissions side, you're in these tools on a daily basis. I think it's one of those things if you're in student conduct or academic advising or every sort of functional area has its set of digital tools that it uses on a day to day basis. But when I was at Oregon State as an academic advisor, I was in banner every single day. And so that was the tool of choice. That's from Elusion. In terms of providers, I'll try not to too much name dropping, but I think that in terms of the Edtech universe, there's so many different providers because so many different functional areas require just different tools to help with the work that they're doing. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:53]: One of the reasons I was really looking forward to our conversation is because you can talk about transitions in the digital space. A lot of the conversations we've had this seasons are personal transitions in career, which you've certainly had. But I think one of the things you've always had your finger on the pulse of in higher Ed is how digital kind of arenas, the digital vertical for higher education has really changed and reshaped the way that we do the work in our campus based positions. So I'm wondering if you can talk to us a little bit about that process and what you've seen in terms of trends and bed tech field is really new 2030 years in terms of its boom. So any trends that you're seeing in terms of how educators are using these tools really well, yeah. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:09:34]: I mean, I think it's always good, like you said, to kind of look back where things were. When I was writing for Inside Higher Ed, I remember going to EDUCAUSE a couple of different times. The annual Educause Conference, which is kind of a giant ed tech convention. And most of the providers back then, those events, they were very much focused on the academic experience side of things. There weren't a lot of providers that were doing things that would even slightly sort of go into the student affairs areas. And now you fast forward to today and Edtech providers are in kind of every single space within institutions. As we've already referenced, the CRM tools have become extremely important because with the approaching enrollment cliff for that traditionally aged population, which is kind of a loaded phrase anyway in terms of what is traditional, but that sort of 18 to 22 year old, that population of university, that's a decline. There's just not as many young people that will be going into higher education. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:10:33]: And so the CRM becomes a tool that is even more important as you communicate, as you hone your message, as you try to showcase the value of your institution, of the degrees that students will receive and earn and other systems as well. I mean, it used to be the digital experience was much more based on the staff or administrators who were at their desk with a big screen and students would come to their office and they would sort of navigate a system on behalf of the student. And then mobile apps kind of really entered in in a meaningful way. And no longer are students sort of tethered to an individual and their desk and their office, but they can look things up on their phone and they can access a variety of services. They can ask questions to 24/7 chat bots. They can look at their course schedule. They can look at various activities and events on campus. Now, of course, when you said this, you referenced the question. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:11:29]: You kind of framed it as on campus. I think what the pandemic did was it showcased the need to serve and support students who weren't necessarily going to be on campus, or at least accelerated. Maybe more of a hybridized environment where students were on campus for a portion of the time, but they were also on their computers at home because it used to be that all your lectures were in a big auditorium. And then the idea of the sort of the flip classroom came into play. Professors were recording their lectures and students could listen to a lecture at home and so that the discussion would actually happen when you went to the classroom. And then with the Pandemic, it sort of said, okay, everything's going to be remote for certain people. And it was interesting because you start thinking about how did student affairs serve learners, who historically student affairs would have been saying, okay, in res life, there's no such thing as remote. Students are actually physically located on campus. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:12:27]: But then say, what about the other side of our institution that was serving adult learners or online only learners or people that were coming in for micro credentials, they were never going to set foot on campus. They maybe came once a year, if that. And so technology has really embedded itself throughout the entire higher education experience because the higher education experience has changed. It's such a blended, multimodal thing where students are learning through their phones, they are communicating like we are right now through zoom or other media like this because you don't have to be bound to a certain geography. You could be in Iowa and studying an institution in Oregon, or you could be in Berlin and studying at an institution in South Carolina. So the variety pack now and I think that's where I think back to our higher education master's program. And the fundamentals that we were taught were still very much constrained to a sort of model that was still constrained in some ways. It's like know, we were on a basketball court, for example, and we knew where the boundary lines were for everything, and we knew, like, okay, here's the two baskets, and we know how things work. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:13:39]: But then all of a, you know, I live in Europe now imagine if that basketball court was transported to a football pitch, which is enormous in size and different boundaries and different scope and scale. And I think that's where higher education finds itself. It's having to, as a sort of nebulous thing, now recruit students that in the past might not have been recruited because, like I said, that enrollment decline for a certain demographic, and so all these technologies are really coming into their own. For instance, the territorium, one of the things that we've been really talking about a lot is this idea that why do people go to college? Why do people pay the bill? Why do the people get into debt? Most of us were not financially wealthy enough to just pay for school right away. You have to get a loan. You pay your student loan off over the course of a lifetime or however long it takes. And what's the value of higher education? Right? Yes. It's the experience. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:14:30]: It's about giving back to your community. It's about access. But by and large, most people go to university because they want to improve their overall employability or their chances for a career that will perhaps lead to financial stability because that's why they're doing it. And higher ed, I think, for the longest time, hasn't really talked about that. We shy away from that. We shy away from the fact that people are going to get their BA in English, for instance, and they're going to get in $50,000 worth of debt. But they're doing it because they love writing, they love the work, they love the art. But at the same time, is there a connection to employment at the end of that journey, or are universities just leaving students in debt? And so I think that's where you may have heard people talk a lot about the skills based economy. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:15:16]: And I went to community college for my first two years. I got my Associate of Arts. My brother, he went to the same community college. He got a two year technical degree. That's what he has, a technical degree. And he has done really well for himself career wise. And I think one of the things, when people hear the word skills based economy, they think, well, that's more technical or community college workforce based. But universities are really getting into that space now when it comes to micro credentials and badging and trying to sort out the sense of, okay, it's not just about a pretty campus. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:15:48]: It's not just about a winning football team. It is about what's the direct correlation to you get this degree or you get this credential and it's going to have a direct impact on your success? Because right now I think there's something like 39 million Americans have some college but no degree, and yet that accompanies that with a ton of debt, right? So there's a lot of issues there. And so how do you take folks who have maybe some college but no degree and let them showcase the sort of skills that they have, even though they don't have the diploma, because they might have a transcript that shows that they've taken five classes, but at the same time, how do they show that to employers? Because employers look, traditionally, employers wanted to see the diploma or that you've earned your 40 year degree or you've earned your Master's or whatnot. And so I think that part of the things that higher ed has had in the past is, okay, we've kind of built this foundation of these are our core technologies. But I think there's this transition to, okay, what are some of those core technologies that might need to change, might need to evolve? Because if you're a registrar, for example, you need something more than just a transcript because you're no longer just awarding ABCDF, you are awarding micro credentials. You're giving badges away to students. Faculty members are sort of looking at, okay, my students are learning these skills during the course of this particular class, and now we're going to award them badges that never would have happened 510 years ago. And now you've got employers saying, hey, we are going to hire students based on these skills that they have that are verified by the institution. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:15]: Those are really important points because what we're seeing is a transformation of the value of higher education that's not just US. Based, that's globally. Because when we look at what a degree means, I believe it means something extremely different to those of us working in the academy, to those folks that are outside of the academy looking to employ people who need individuals who can demonstrate critical thinking, problem solving skills, technical knowledge, all of those things. And that's part of what the degree is designed to do. But I would believe that, especially at a liberal arts institution like mine, we're teaching ways to think, not just facts and figures and things like that. And you need both. So the question is, how are we transitioning not only our offerings at the university as a whole from a credentialing perspective, but how are we also doing that in student affairs? And how can technology support those transitions for what the work needs to look like? So I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on that. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:18:12]: Yeah, well, I think part of it has to do with the fact that because you mentioned critical thinking, critical thinking is a huge part of the experience of higher education and a lot of student affairs programs the underpinnings of those programs definitely includes critical thinking, equity conversations, cultural diversity conversations. And I think that all those aspects, they just weren't measured in the past. Right, so what did you actually learn throughout your experience that wasn't in the classroom? NASPA, for as long as I can remember, has always talked about learning reconsidered. Right. That learning happens throughout the experience of a student, regardless of where they are on campus, off campus, in a class, outside of the class. And so I think that is part of the work that student affairs is going to have to do going forward, because there's a lot of scrutiny right now, obviously, on institutional budgets and outcomes. And the two big R's, of course, are recruitment and retention. And student affairs plays a big part in both of those areas. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:19:08]: And so I think that the student affairs side of things in terms of transforming kind of what was done to what is being done and what will continue to be done, is going to be verifying and measuring those outcomes so that there's a tangible way to sort of I mentioned badges earlier. How many student affairs divisions are awarding badges to students? You think a lot of times about badges is maybe coming from the academic affairs side of the house. I think that look at Career Services shops, look at the evolution of Career Services because like career centers, they have probably one of the most important roles at institutions. And yet for the longest time, not so much now, but for a long time it was, okay, I'm a junior or a senior, I'll go and talk to career services kind of at the end of my institutional experience before I graduate. And now you see Career Services, they're front loading their engagement with students. So they're at orientation, they're there at first year experience courses, and they're also working alongside employers to connect students to this idea that this is just a step in your journey and we're going to try to help you along. And so I think we're going to see a lot more student affairs divisions awarding badges and getting into the LMS, getting into the badge systems, either coming directly out of a clr or it comes from another provider. I think that's the other thing with this is Ed Tech providers have been very insular in the past. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:20:28]: Like, we've got a platform and it only works with our platform. And so student data is kind of stuck in this database that's very proprietary and an organization called Oneed Tech, unless you're really deeply involved in sort of the Ed Tech space, you might not be aware of them. But one of the big facets of their work is interoperability sort of this idea that all these digital assets that students have are like Lego and that you can kind of plug and play them independently of a certain system. So, for example, if you have a digital wallet, that has all of your badges and has your skills, your credentials, all that stuff in there, you can take it to another institution. Kind of how students transfer from community college maybe to a university, but usually that's with a traditional transcript. But the overall vision will be learners will have this wallet of all of their verified skills and experiences and credentials that they carry with them in an interoperable plug and play type way. And so the sort of sovereignty of learners becomes a much bigger part of the conversation because there's a lot of data that has been part of this as well. And in student affairs, we don't really talk about data. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:21:36]: We don't talk about sort of the technical piece because we've been so much about the soft skills, the one to one. If you want to be a dean of students, you're not necessarily getting into a huge portion of the data unless maybe it's connected to retention or some other issue on campus directly. But the Ed tech space, there's so much data that is coming out of that. And so the thing I think will be interesting to see with student affairs throughout every functional area will be the various dashboards and analytics and outcomes coalescing into a space where you can sort of see, okay, where are students at? What do they need? What kind of support do they need? How is that going to influence things that we're doing programmatically as well as for the next as a student goes to another institution for the kind of a handoff, so to speak, because it won't just be your data is stuck at some institution. It's going with you. It's actually traveling along with you, and it might be enabled in some sort of bitcoin wallet that's kind of independent from an institution that's kind of a buzword. But at the same time, that's kind of the ultimate goal, I think, for a lot of companies that are thinking more about the openness of all this. I mean, when you think about the space that I'm currently in and how we interface into higher Ed, it's not just know, NASPA and Acro are playing a big part in this. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:22:53]: Acro is the Admissions and Registrars Association. They're kind of the home of registrars professionally and technically. Usually that's where the transcript resides. The Lumina Foundation, the big organizations focused on learning and outcomes over the years to even Walmart, because Walmart, I think they're the largest employer in the US. And one of the largest globally. They employ a huge number of people. And so they're thinking about the pathways from higher ed into different careers. I think the pathways piece is one I also want to introduce to this conversation, because it's important to give learners pathways even if they don't graduate, so that people aren't just left with debt and a handful of credits. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:23:31]: What is it they're actually going to be able to get, even if they don't finish. Because as you know, Jill, sometimes success for one person is just a couple semesters of college and that is like a hugely successful outcome for them. Whereas for a lot of other people, maybe it's graduation, maybe it's master's degree, maybe it's a certificate. Success is very much an individualized thing. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:51]: Still, it's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:57]: Jill's, so excited to be back again in the NASPA world. A ton of things happening in NASPA. So many of us have been hearing a ton about artificial intelligence. We are starting to explore it or delve deeper into it on our own college campuses. And in the most recent Leadership Exchange magazine, which you all have access to as a member of NASPA, the editors and authors of that magazine did delve deeply into artificial intelligence in the Metaverse and really asked a broader question of whether our profession, whether student affairs is ready for this. It was a fascinating article and definitely a fascinating magazine. To delve much deeper into this topic. I highly encourage you to go to the NASPA website and you can go under publications to the Leadership Exchange magazine and log in and be able to read that for yourself. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:03]: If you want to check out all the different professional development opportunities, and I know I share a lot of them with you on a regular basis, but if you go under the Events and Online Learning tab, you're going to find everything that is happening within NASPA and around NASPA, all the different professional development opportunities that are available. And this is a great way for you to be able to find things that connect with your professional growth and professional learning that you want. And it will open up opportunities for you to be able to see different ways in which you can grow and learn in your own professional journey. So lots of things happening in NASPA, lots of ways to stay connected with NASPA. Start at the NASPA website, naspa.org, and go and check it out for yourself. Every week we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Because the association is as strong as its members and for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:24]: And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit, where do you want to give back each week? We're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas. That will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that, or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:19]: A wonderful NASPA World segment as always, Chris, we really appreciate you keeping us updated. What's going on in and around NASPA? Eric, we are now at our lightning round. I have 90 seconds for you to answer seven questions. You ready to roll? Dr. Eric Stoller [00:27:31]: That's like one of those if a train leaves Chicago heading 5 miles an hour kind of questions. I'm ready to go, Jill. Let's go. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:36]: All right, question number one. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Dr. Eric Stoller [00:27:42]: Well, I've been a conference keynote speaker for many different events, so I always like to go with the Glitch mob. They were always pretty good. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:49]: Number two, when you were five years old, what did you want to be when you grew up? Dr. Eric Stoller [00:27:52]: When I was five years old, I was a little kid in Iowa on a gravel road. I think I wanted to be probably an NBA player because then I would have pavement. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:01]: Number three, your most influential professional mentor. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:28:04]: Gosh, there have been so many. I'd say one of the most influential professional mentors I've ever had. Just one. So Kevin Krueger, when we were doing our pre show talk, he's been an instrumental part of my career over the years, and I always appreciated his leadership at NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:20]: Number four, your essential higher education. Read. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:28:23]: I would be remiss if I did not say Insidehired.com. I Know that Scott Jassic is retiring as Editor co Editor Of Inside Higher Ed. It's still, in my view, one of the best sites out there for comprehensive coverage of what's going on in higher ed. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:37]: Number five, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:28:40]: Oh, gosh, that was years ago now. The best show? Well, my second son was born during the pandemic, and I watched ridiculous amounts of things late, late at night. I would say some sort of Scandinaro thing on Netflix, because that was kind of what I was into at the time. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:56]: Pandemic's been over for years for you. It's only been over for eight months. Where I'm at. Number six, the podcast you spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:29:04]: I would say anything from the Enrollify Podcast network. I like the work that they've done. I feel like their shows are really put together nicely, and there's always interesting topics in terms of higher ed innovation and technology. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:17]: And finally, number seven, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? Dr. Eric Stoller [00:29:20]: First of all, I'd just like to say thank you to Jill for asking me to come on the show. I think that it's always nice to reconnect with folks from Oregon State. So I'll just give you a big shout out because it's been a blast to follow your career sort of vicariously through social networks and social media know you've been just a huge leader around the globe. I mean, you've been everywhere, it seems. So I'm going to give Jill a shout out because I don't think she probably gets enough on these things. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:45]: Thank you. Appreciate it. Eric, it's been such a joy to catch up with you. I've also followed your career just on social. This is the strength of weak ties. I'll cite Granavetter here as a scholar that I read a lot in my public administration doctorate program. But the Strength of Weak Ties, we haven't spoken maybe ten years probably, but it's so lovely to understand and see how we're both contributing, knowing we started off as babies in grad school. And it's very nice to see what success looks like and means for various people from that time in our lives. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:15]: And if folks would like to reach you after the show, how can they find you? Dr. Eric Stoller [00:30:17]: Territorium.com? Or you can always just Google Eric Stoller. Something will come up, most likely. My email is [email protected]. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:25]: Eric with a C. Exactly. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:30:27]: E-R-I-C. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:28]: Thank you so much for sharing your voice with us. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:30:30]: Thanks so much, Jill. It's been great. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:32]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn. By searching for Dr. Jill L. Craighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:58]: We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show. And please like, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill L. Creighton Seth Me produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:23]: Special thanks to Duke Kunshan University and the University of Michigan, Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Welcome to another episode of SA Voices from the Field podcast. In today's episode, we have a special guest joining us, Kenneth Samson. Kenneth is not only a first-generation American college student, but also a new father.  In this episode of "Student Affairs Voices From the Field," Dr. Jill Creighton welcomes Kenneth Samson, a first-generation American college student who also falls into the category of a 1.5 generation student. Kenneth's parents have college degrees, but they graduated in the Philippines, which presented unique challenges for him as he navigated the American college system. He shares his journey, starting at Pasadena City College and eventually transferring to California State University, Los Angeles, where he graduated with a BA in English. Despite needing guidance as a first-generation student, Kenneth struggled to seek help due to his unfamiliarity with the process. Kenneth's story doesn't end there. He went on to teach English to medical school and high school students for over a decade, many of whom were also first-generation or 1.5 generation students. He recently completed his Master's of Education in educational counseling at USC, with the goal of supporting students and promoting help-seeking behaviors, particularly for marginalized students in Southern California Community Colleges. Kenneth is embarking on a new career as a counselor at Long Beach City College and a counseling instructor at multiple colleges while celebrating the arrival of his two-month-old son, Kenji. Throughout the conversation, Kenneth emphasizes the importance of networking and utilizing resources, especially during transitions. He discusses how he manages his various roles and transitions by meticulously organizing his schedule with Google Calendar. Kenneth also reflects on how his teaching approach has evolved from K-12 to higher education, emphasizing empowerment and bravery in students. He encourages others to follow their dreams and not be afraid to make career transitions, even if it means taking a leap of faith. He shares his experience of dealing with rejection during the job application process and the importance of seeking feedback for personal growth. Kenneth's story serves as an inspiring example of perseverance, adaptability, and the pursuit of one's passions in the field of student affairs. Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season nine on transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your essay, Voices From the Field host today on Essay Voice, we welcome Kenneth Sampson, a first generation American college student, also known as a 1.5 generation student. His parents have college degrees but graduated in the Philippines. While maneuvering through college. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:36]: He had a little help from his parents, who had no experience navigating the American college system. He attended Pasadena City College, transferred to California State University, Los Angeles, and graduated with a BA. In English with little help from academic counselors, not because he did not want help, but because he did not know how to ask for help. He's taught English to medical school and high school students for over a decade. Many of those students are first generation American students and 1.5 generation students. He's most recently graduated from the educational counseling program at USC with a Master's of Education in hopes of serving students by promoting help seeking behaviors while increasing outreach for first generation and marginalized students in Southern California Community College. He's beginning his new career this fall as a counselor at Long Beach City College, as well as a counseling instructor at Rio Hondo College, East Los Angeles College and Pasadena City College. Kenneth is also a new father to his two month old son, Kenji. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:30]: Kenneth, welcome to SA Voices. Kenneth Samson [00:01:33]: Hello, Jill. Happy to be here. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:35]: We're doing our season all on transitions, and you have quite a few of them, and I'm looking forward to getting into your story and what you've learned. But we always like to start our episodes by asking our guests how you found your way to your current position. Kenneth Samson [00:01:48]: So I'm in transition right now, so I have a few current positions. I'm actually a teaching adjunct counseling instructor at Pasadena City College, also East Los Angeles College, also Rio Hondo College, and I will be getting actual counseling hours as an adjunct counselor at Long Beach City College. I honestly got that through networking. I graduated from the educational counseling program at USC, and I honestly got it through networking from USC. The USC network is very strong, very powerful. Educational counseling program is also very strong, and I would not have any of these jobs if it was not for that program. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:25]: So that is a lot of transition happening for you. You also have transition happening in your personal life, right? Kenneth Samson [00:02:31]: Yes. I am a new father. My son is two months old. His name is Kenji. Hello, Kenji. If you ever listen to this in the future yes. So that's brand new, super exciting. I also just graduated my program, so going from student to professional and then basically also to fatherhood. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:51]: So that's a lot happening all at once. So my question in this area is really about how you're managing all of these transitions, what you're thinking about, what is working, what is scaring you, all of those things. So why don't we start with how are you finding yourself managing through all of these transitions? Kenneth Samson [00:03:07]: I think the biggest thing is Google Calendar. I'm not sponsored by Google. This is not product placement, but because when I was doing my grad work, I was using my calendar on my phone. I was using Google Calendar. I was using Calendar on Outlook, and I had three different calendars going at the same time. And I learned from that mistake. Someone told me, just put it all on one calendar. I was like, okay, which 01:00 a.m. Kenneth Samson [00:03:31]: I going to use. The most accessible and easiest one to use for me was Google Calendar. So I just have it all there. Easy for me to see. In addition, my partner can see what I'm doing, what site I'm at, right? Because I'm at four different colleges. So it helps her. Also. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:46]: That's an interesting part of your transition, too, that you didn't just move from student to professional. You moved from student to professional with four different work environments. And so daily or weekly, you're transitioning. Kenneth Samson [00:03:57]: Through those as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:58]: So tell us about how you found yourself able to settle into each community, knowing that each community is a little different. Kenneth Samson [00:04:05]: So knowing the they're all in Southern California, right? And when you are adjuncting, especially at community colleges, right. They call you a freeway flyer. So I'm definitely a freeway flyer, right. Flying from one campus to another. How I really got with this community was honestly through again, that network at USC, the educational counseling program, being able to build from that and meeting people through there, getting support through there and then having people from that program. Connect me with other people in the career center or in student affairs or at the transfer center. Just building that community within those college spaces. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:43]: And what about your first couple of days at each space? How did you ensure a landing that worked for you? Kenneth Samson [00:04:50]: So for some of them, I have not started yet. Right. I just got hired at HR. Interesting. For the ones that I have been able to land, actually, I was also interning there beforehand, so I mentioned Pasadena City College. I was actually a student there way back when. I was a community college student, eventually transferred, so I felt home there. That's definitely where I want to end up. Kenneth Samson [00:05:14]: But I'm open to ending up any community college, supporting any population or any specific group of students. But that's really where I feel at home, because that's actually where I met my partner. So we were actually freshmen first semester, right out of high school. We were in something called a block program, which basically was like a cohort model. And I noticed her, she noticed me, and we've been together ever since, basically now we have a child together, right. And she actually works there as well. So she's a full time tenure English professor over there. So for Pasadena City College. Kenneth Samson [00:05:47]: Really felt home there. East Los Angeles College is the other place where I'm also familiar with I was an intern there at the transfer center. Everyone just talked about how great this graduate internship was at the transfer center, and really I learned so much there. The director over there, Kirby Dominguez is it. He really wants you to learn and really isn't intimidating and allows you to ask questions. Right. To make sure you're giving the best information and the correct information to students, especially when it comes to transfer. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:17]: What does that mean for you to move from that intern space to that professional space? Kenneth Samson [00:06:22]: For me, it's huge. It's definitely a shift. The biggest jump or the biggest change is the paycheck. Obviously you're like, oh wow, all of a sudden I'm making good money. So that was interesting. But in terms of the professional space, both places, honestly, I didn't feel like an intern because neither one of those places, they don't really call. On paper, you're an intern, but the title that they give you when you're there, it's not intern. At PCC Pasadena City College, I was a success coach. Kenneth Samson [00:06:52]: And even their interns or their hourly, they don't call hourly or interns. They call them professional experts. So they already gave you that idea of, oh, hey, you're a professional, you know what you're doing here? We hired you for a reason. Same thing at East Los Angeles College, even though it's unclassified paid. Intern is what they're called right. At the transfer center. The transfer center, they call us transfer mentors because we're mentoring these community college students to transfer to a four year university, whether that's in state, out of state, private. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:19]: Have you had to do any redefining of your relationships with colleagues that knew you as that success coach that are now seeing you as an instructor? Kenneth Samson [00:07:26]: No, honestly, and I think because they know my past. I actually was a K through twelve teacher for quite some time after getting my bachelor's, so I didn't go back to get my master's until a decade later, basically. So I was in the professional space in K through twelve for a while. So they knew that, oh, he has teaching experience, which is probably why I've gotten so many classes at three different colleges. Right. Lucky enough that helped me leverage my experience, helped me leverage getting those positions. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:58]: That K twelve space to higher ed is a jump that I hear a lot from K twelve educators who are looking to break into the higher ed space. Do you have any advice for others who are trying to make that leap? Kenneth Samson [00:08:08]: Yes. And this is the advice that someone gave me. If you're going to do that leap, jump in the deep end, jump in headfirst all the way. Right. I had a full time position going K through twelve teaching, and I decided that, oh, I want to work specifically at the California Community College level. And someone told me, if you're going to do that, you have to go all in and you have to really do the internships, you have to really invest your time and it'll pay off. And that's what I did. I left my full time job with benefits, took a huge pay cut, right. Kenneth Samson [00:08:40]: I was doing like two, three internships, but still, that was nothing compared to what I used to make. And also I was paying a USC tuition, so luckily I had some savings. But it was definitely a shift economically for me. But that's my advice, because at the end it'll pay off. And really what you'll learn as an intern is invaluable, and it's so much easier to ask, I think, administrators, deans, oh, I'm a student and I want experience in this. Right. The thing is, if have a full time job, when will you have the time to ask for that, get that experience? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:13]: And that is definitely an amazing thing that you're able to do. And at the same time, I know there's a lot of folks for whom that would not be economically possible. Do you have any advice for those who can't maybe take that leap as deeply scholarships? Kenneth Samson [00:09:25]: That's something I learned not just at USC, but even as a transfer mentor at East Los Angeles college scholarships. Right. Apply to any and all of them. Don't tell yourself no, let them tell you, you know, there's a scholarship for anything and everything under the sun. In addition, there are scholarships. Even if you don't identify with that specific group, if you're supporting that group, they'll recognize, oh, this person is helping our community. They're giving us something, why not give something back to that individual? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:52]: What about mindset? Transitions, transitioning from that k twelve space where you're teaching children to the collegiate space where you're teaching adults. How have you shifted the way that you think about teaching? Kenneth Samson [00:10:04]: I teach at a supplemental education center also, so I still actually teach just a few classes on the weekend to K through twelve students, middle school and high school specifically. And I think being in the program and seeing the college space that they're hoping to get into has changed my mind into not necessarily hammering them with content, but helping them develop ideas. Because before at the supplemental education center, I teach grammar and writing, right. And I teach grammar to first generation students and also 1.5 generation students. And it's something where their parents really want them to learn the grammar and syntax of the English language because maybe they're not getting it at home. And so initially, that's how I kind of hammered it down, even with their writing, even with their reading comprehension to break it down, grammatically syntactically for them to understand. But with my counseling training and even entering the college space, I've learned that they're going to get that eventually. There is time for that. Kenneth Samson [00:11:01]: But thing is to build up their confidence, allow them to come up with ideas, not make it seem like college is so scary. Because I think when I was a high school teacher and before I entered the college space as a professional, it was like, oh, well, college professors, college instructors, they're going to expect this from you and that from you. And being in that space, it's like, oh no, actually they're compassionate as well as compassionate as I was in the K through twelve. Right. They understand life circumstances. They understand that life happens and that they're human. Also. It's not that, oh, because you're in college now, there's some type of rigor that they won't be used to. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:37]: I want to co sign something you said about encouraging people to come up with their own ideas. And it sounds like what you're really teaching is bravery. And I read an article recently that bravery is the number one trait or skill set that we can help instill in young people, to help create a kind of a forward thinking human being or encourage a forward thinking human being. More so than anything else, there's all these articles about resilience and critical thinking and all these other things, but bravery is really that number one. Kenneth Samson [00:12:03]: Yes, empowering students, and not just empowering students, but giving them that space to feel empowered I think is important. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:10]: Absolutely. So in all of these transitions that you're experiencing, is there anything that you can look back on and say, I really wish I would have known X, Y, or Z before starting the transition process, or anything that you wish you would have done maybe a little differently? Kenneth Samson [00:12:24]: I really wish I would have prepared more. I think before graduating, I knew what jobs I wanted to apply to and I knew what colleges I was going to apply to and doing that preparation into the professional world because I had a resume, I had a cover letter, and it was kind of generic. It wasn't tailored to that college that now I know, oh no, you need to tailor it to that college, to that program. It was difficult for me because then I had the time right before I graduated to do that, but I didn't take it because I was like, oh, I worked so hard in my master's program, I'm going to kind of coast till the end. Well, after I graduated, my son was born. And then it's like, oh, you don't have time to work on your resume or your cover letter or these applications like you wanted to. You should have done that earlier. Right. Kenneth Samson [00:13:10]: So just definitely pre planning, especially since I knew he was coming, maybe had. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:16]: A little advanced notice. Kenneth Samson [00:13:18]: Yeah. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:19]: And with that in mind, the transition to parenthood is a major shift in any human being's life. How have you managed the transition to balancing the needs, your family and also the burgeoning career that you're developing? Kenneth Samson [00:13:31]: Yeah, I think definitely carving out time that is dedicated to my family and telling my coworkers, my colleagues, and even my friends, oh, this is my family time. Right. Because with all those jobs, with those classes that I teach and those counseling hours that I will eventually be covering, I want them to know, oh, when I'm there, I'm there for you wholeheartedly. I'm there 110%. You have my undivided attention. But then when I'm home, that's home time for my family to make sure because I want to show my son that he can do all of these things right. But I also want him to know me as well. I don't want to be the parent that, oh, he comes home at like 08:00 P.m. Kenneth Samson [00:14:07]: And then leaves at 08:00 A.m. Or even 07:00 A.m. Because right. I'm in Southern California, in Los Angeles area, so traffic is crazy over here. And he's gone to I can tell now, but it's summer, so I'm excited for the semester to start. But I'm also sad because I know I'm going to see less of him, but I want him to you know, that's my dad. He's here, he's got me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:28]: And is there any other major transition that you're going through right now? And we've talked about family. We've talked about graduating, starting new positions, and even switching industries. There's just so many transitions that you're reflecting on. Is there anything that we're not talking about? Kenneth Samson [00:14:45]: I hope that's all. If there's anything else, I think that kind of covers it. I think that's enough. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:51]: Oh, absolutely. Is there anything in all these transitions that didn't go well for you? Kenneth Samson [00:14:56]: Yeah, going back to application process, I did apply to one specifically that I really wanted to work at, and it didn't pan out. I didn't even get an interview, and I was like, One of my Femtors works there. And I was like, how awesome will it be that I'm going to work under my Femtor at this college? And it basically didn't happen. And that really hurt me a bit. Kind of shattered some dreams because that application in all the application pools was the first one to open. So right after that, I was kind of discouraged. I didn't know I didn't even get an interview, and I thought I was a pretty competitive candidate. That one really still hurts. Kenneth Samson [00:15:35]: But I was lucky enough to do meet with my Femtor, get some feedback, not just on my application, but my cover letter as well and my resume. I'm like, oh, I know I'll eventually end up there. I'm going to apply next year and keep applying. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:48]: That's a really wonderful approach to that kind of disappointment. It's not a question of beating yourself up about it. It's a question of how can I improve so I can be more competitive in the future, and we just don't know what we're up against often in those job pools or what it is about our materials that weren't necessarily attractive to that search committee in that first round. So I just really appreciate your approach of going, okay, let's turn this around and just look a little differently. Kenneth Samson [00:16:12]: Yeah. And after that, right now, I'm at four community colleges. I'm like, oh, so maybe I wasn't the right fit for them at that time, but I was the right fit for these other community colleges right. That needed me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:24]: Is there anything else that you want our listeners to hear about your advice for transitioning? Kenneth Samson [00:16:29]: Maybe as cheesy or as corny as this sounds, honestly, follow your dreams. Like, I'm living proof. I'm working at where I started my higher education career as a student. I'm an adjunct instructor there now. Also, don't be afraid. I was very afraid to leave my job, leave my full time job with benefits. But if it's something that you want to do and something that you're passionate about, go and do it, because it's better to see how it turns out than live in regret, I think, right? And for really, it's no regrets. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:03]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:09]: Jill's so excited to be back again in the NASPA world. A ton of things happening in NASPA, and it's exciting time to be a part of our profession because there's so much going on. And it's an exciting time just on campuses because fall has started. We're back into the mix of things, and there's definitely a lot happening on our campuses. Sometimes it's hard to stay on top of things. I know that. I sometimes feel that way. I'm sure that you feel that way as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:39]: But it's always important to try to stay connected with what's going on in the profession broader than our campus. And there's a ton of ways to do that. There's ways to do that and getting involved at the association level. You can get involved in different knowledge communities in different divisions and groups. Lots of ways to be able to not only give back your own talents, but also lots of ways to stay connected. And when I say get involved, that doesn't mean that you have to take a leadership role. It could just be reading what's being sent out. It could be being a program reviewer and giving a little bit of time. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:17]: There's lots of ways. One of the things that I always encourage people to do every fall is to log back in to your NASPA portal. And when you go to the NASPA website, you'll see a login button at the top of the screen. You just log in there. And when you log in, one of the things to do is to review all of your information so you can click on my NASPA and where it says Edit my profile, click on that and review all your information. Make sure that all your information is correct. And if your membership is coming up too close to be due, you want to make sure that you do renew your membership, but also set those notification preferences on your profile. Make sure that you're signed up for the knowledge communities or the areas that you want to get information from because this is a way for you to be able to stay connected. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:13]: And if you're not connected, if you haven't signed up for any of the different engagement opportunities, then you're not going to end up being able to get information from those. So make sure that you go in and I say to do this at least once a year to make sure that everything's up to date. And then you'll be up to date. You'll be getting all the information and be in the know, talking about being in the know. One of the other things that I have talked to you about in the past, but I encourage you to do on a regular basis, is go back to the NASPA website, go under the latest and under the latest. This is where you can find not only all the past episodes of Essay Voices from the Field, but this is where you can find the blog for NASPA, all the statements that NASPA puts out, the press releases, other projects and initiatives that they're working on. But on the blog you're going to see up to date information that will keep you in the know of new things that are happening within our association, within higher education and beyond. Urge you to keep an eye here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:31]: All of the knowledge communities try to keep this up to date. Many of the different areas within NASPA try to keep it up to date with blogs and articles to be able to engage you as members. And these are written by members of the association like yourself. So jump on here, make sure that you stay in the know and be able to see what is happening within the profession. So lots of things happening in NASPA, lots of ways to stay connected with NASPA. Start at the NASPA website, naspa.org and go and check it out for yourself. Every week we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:24]: Because the association is as strong as its members and for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself. Where do you fit. Where do you want to give back? Each week? We're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:36]: Chris, thanks so much for keeping us updated on what's going on in and around NASPA. We really appreciate you putting together those segments every week. Kenneth, we have now reached our lightning round time. I have about 90 seconds for you to answer seven questions. You ready to go? Kenneth Samson [00:22:50]: Yeah. Let's do it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:50]: All right, question number one. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Kenneth Samson [00:22:56]: Bohemian Rhapsody. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:57]: Number two. When you were five years old, what did you want to be when you grew up? Kenneth Samson [00:23:00]: A karate instructor. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:01]: Number three. Who's your most influential professional mentor? Kenneth Samson [00:23:04]: Dr. Robert opentile. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:06]: Number four. Your essential student affairs. Kenneth Samson [00:23:08]: Read anything inside the higher ed. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:10]: Number five. The best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Kenneth Samson [00:23:13]: The Big bang theory. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:15]: Number six. And I know you commute a lot, so hopefully you've got a good one for this. The podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Kenneth Samson [00:23:22]: American capitalism or capitalist America? Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:24]: And finally, number seven. Any shout outs you'd like to give? Personal or professional? Kenneth Samson [00:23:27]: Yes. Shout out to Juliana Sampson, my wife. I love you so much. Shout out to Kenji Sampson, my two month old son. I love him so much as well. I do everything for you all. Shout out to my family, friends. Shout out again to the USC Educational Counseling program. Kenneth Samson [00:23:45]: I would not be where I am without all of you over there. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:47]: Kenneth, it's been such a pleasure getting to know you better on the show here. If anyone would like to reach you after this airs, how can they find you? Kenneth Samson [00:23:53]: LinkedIn is probably the best way to reach out to me professionally. So it's basically LinkedIn.com. Kennethsampson. That's K-E-N-N-E-T-H-S-A-M-S-O-N. That's probably the best way to get to me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:08]: Thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Kenneth Samson [00:24:10]: Thank you, Jill. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:12]: This has been an episode of Essay Voices from the Field, brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn. By searching for Dr. Jill L. Craighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:37]: We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show. And please like, rate and review us on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill L. Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to Duke Kunshan University and the University of Michigan, Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.  

Welcome back to another episode of SA Voices From The Field! In today's episode, we have a special guest, Hyunmin Kim, who will be sharing their insights and experiences in the field of higher education and student affairs. In this episode of the "Student Affairs Voices From the Field" podcast, Dr. Jill Creighton interviews Hyunmin Kim, the assistant director of residential life for the Courtyards at the University of Maryland. Hyunmin shares his journey into student affairs and his recent transition into his current role. Hyunmin's journey into student affairs began with a personal connection to residential life, as he grew up in a family housing unit on a university campus. He found his passion for working with students while in college, leading him to pursue a master's degree in public administration with a focus on educational leadership. His career path eventually led him to become the assistant director at the Courtyards. During the discussion, Hyunmin reflects on his first 90 days in his new role, highlighting the challenges and learning experiences. He emphasizes the importance of taking time to reflect and recharge, especially in a field that can be emotionally demanding. Hyunmin also discusses his approach to supervising professional staff and the transition from supervising paraprofessionals. He values building close relationships with those he supervises and believes in a balance of professionalism and personal connection. Looking ahead, Hyunmin discusses his plans to focus on building a strong culture and traditions within the Courtyards community. He aims to engage upperclassmen residents and establish a legacy of involvement and participation. Additionally, he explores ways to use social media to connect with students and meet them where they are while maintaining the university's educational mission. In conclusion, Hyunmin encourages others in the field to smile, remember why they chose student affairs, and be innovative in their approach to engage and support students. He also stresses the importance of setting a positive and inclusive culture within residential communities. Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 9 on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on SA Voices, we're pleased to feature Hyunmin Kim, who is serving as the assistant director of residential life for the Courtyards at the University of Maryland. He was born in Seoul, South Korea, but was raised in Nashville, Tennessee. He has a master's in public administration from American University with a focus in educational leadership. At the courtyards you could always find him joking with residents and looking to find new and interesting ways to interact with residents. Hyun Min, welcome to the show. Hyunmin Kim [00:00:48]: Hello. Thanks for having me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:50]: And we're talking to you today from Maryland College Park. Hyunmin Kim [00:00:53]: Yes? Yes. That is correct. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:54]: Well, we're glad to get to know you today in our theme of transitions. And one of the things that we love to kick off our show with is asking someone how they got to their current seat. So what is your come up journey to being the assistant director at Maryland College Park? Hyunmin Kim [00:01:08]: Yeah. I love giving a good old origin story. I think it's a pretty common story amongst higher educators. I think when I started college, I had A little bit of, like, an idea about, like, something that I wanted to do. And then I got to college, and I realized that it just really wasn't for me, and I had no passion for it. So it was time for a bit of soul searching. Right? Because, obviously, it's just like I work my whole life for a specific goal and then just goes down the drain. So I kinda started to think back about kind of experiences that I had growing up that I really enjoyed. Hyunmin Kim [00:01:35]: So my parents immigrated from South Korea. My dad did his PhD in Nashville at Vanderbilt University, And we lived in a residential college then, like a family housing unit. And I remember as a kid just kind of being a part of that community growing up, just going to those events at the rec centered with my father, and it was I think it was a lot of fun for me as a kid. So then I got involved on our campus, you know, through hall council. It's very you know, the classic higher ed store. Hall council, RHA, the desk, and all that. Then kinda slowly, I just realized that I had a real passion for it, so I did my master's in public administration and leadership Development. And then did my grad work, and then I just ended up at the Courtyard at the University of Maryland, and I just kind of ended up as the assistant director. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:12]: And how long have you been in that assistant director seat now? Hyunmin Kim [00:02:16]: Since May of this year, so not too long. Not too long. Very fresh, the position. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:19]: Absolutely. And before that, you were in the coordinator position at the same university. Yes? Hyunmin Kim [00:02:25]: Yes. I was a resident director. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:27]: So one of the things we're gonna be focusing on for you today is the 90 day story, the 90 day transition because you're basically just coming out of the other side of that 90 days, right about now. And interesting for your transition that it happened really in the summertime, which is a much more chill time to transition a position in our industry than it would be if you did it in, like, October or something. So tell us about the beginnings of the transition in terms of wanting to interview with your current colleagues for a position because I know that that can be a really nerve wracking space. Hyunmin Kim [00:02:57]: I think the first thing that I really thought about was when when they approached me, like, hey. Like, this This position's opening up. Would you be interested? It's a less formal interview process because we know you, but would you still be interested? And I think I really thought it's like, Am I qualified to be the assistant director? Right? Because I'm I think I'm on the younger side, for higher educators. I'm, like, coming into, like, Year 2 of it, so I was a resident director for a year, and then they approached me at this position. And I think that was the first thing that I thought was, like, am I ready? Can I actually do it, and what do I actually what does an assistant director actually do? And I talked to my boss who was the assistant director at the time, And she was like, you're ready. I mean, you you worked underneath me. You can do it. It's just a matter of getting there and just showing up for the job and following through and and learning as you go and Kind of understanding how the role plays a part into the community as you continue to work in the role. Hyunmin Kim [00:03:46]: So, you know, I go through the process. I think now that I've kind of been that 90 day, as you said, it's I feel like now I'm slowly getting comfortable as to what I'm supposed to do. The qualified part, I think every day, that's a struggle just, like, knowing if I'm doing the I think if this is actually making a good impact for my student staff or the students that I work with, I think it was overall a very interesting transition, and I think a lot of time for Self reflection on my part about my years as a director. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:09]: So in that self reflection, how did you come to the determination that you were ready and you didn't wanna apply? Hyunmin Kim [00:04:14]: I think my life's Motto has always been, you gotta try it first. And if it doesn't work, then, like, you'll know, but, like, you gotta at least try. And I'm a very hands on guy. I've always been more of human, and I've just really enjoyed getting my hands deep with the students. So I think my mindset was is if I'm just in my head space constantly fighting demons, that I I really never will know, and then it'll go to someone else who may not know the community as well as I do, who may not know my students as well as I do, who may not know the needs as well as I do. And I think I came to kind of the conclusion that I do know what my students need and what my students staff especially need. So I was just like, alright. We're gonna run with it. Hyunmin Kim [00:04:48]: We're gonna do it. And, If it doesn't work, then we're gonna grow, we're gonna improve, but I won't know until I try. So I just kind of jumped in a little bit. I turned off my brain a little bit. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:57]: And you made that leap from 1st entry level professional into that mid level, like, as you said, pretty quickly. So what are the skills and abilities and knowledge areas that you needed or the KSAs in order to really start to think about the conceptualization of how your regular work and your mindset towards work need to change in that jump. Hyunmin Kim [00:05:16]: Yeah. I mean, I think as a resident director, you really are I mean, I've, you know, much love for all the resident directors. It's just you're really out there with the students. You're the 1st line of defense in the trenches, and I think sometimes it's easy to lose sight of the bigger picture as you're always just so, like, knee deep with students. And I think that year of Maybe with my RAs, it was just like I was just so knee deep with them. It was sometimes hard to see the bigger picture as to why sometimes my supervisors were making the decisions that were being made. I'm like, why why are we why we doing this, and I think going to my 1st NASP, interacting with, you know, the KC, but also just kind of, like, talking to other friend other colleagues and friends in the area. I had to kind of take a step back and kinda distance myself a little bit from my students who I enjoy so much just to kind of See the bigger picture. Hyunmin Kim [00:05:58]: Right? Because it's not just student staff that I work with or it's not just students that I work with. It it's the collective body of the courtyards, and and it was just trying I had to kind of just take a step back and be less hands on, be a little less turn off brainy, and actually turn on my brain a little bit more to see what the bigger picture was and to understand what it meant to To kind of make the harder decisions, the harder calls, and I guess transitioning my mindset to be a little bit more broader focused rather than so narrowly focused on Just like one specific sect, I guess, of higher ed. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:26]: And when you think about working with the students, which I think is why almost all of us got into higher education is we're really passionate about working with developing adults. How has that changed your relationship with the students in your community given now that you're not in the day to day and you're in that mid level leadership space? Hyunmin Kim [00:06:42]: Honestly, I think especially right now because it it has been my and now, like, the school year started, I'm not doing as much up front interaction with the residents. It's a little lonely. Like, I'm not gonna lie. Like, middle management is great, but also I think there's a little bit of loneliness at the top. I see them a lot less, and I can't interact with them as much. So I find myself talking to them more, which I don't know if they want that from me, but, like, I get a lot more Excited now. So I find myself actually just going up to them a lot more, asking my RD, like, what's the deal with this resident? What's the deal with this RA? Like, I think I try to Stay in the notes, stay in the loop more. I I find myself spending more time at programs. Hyunmin Kim [00:07:18]: Like, I'll just kinda show up and just kinda sit there and be like, alright, guys. Just do your stuff. Like, I'm just gonna be here. I just wanna See what's going on. I just wanna know what's happening. So I think I've had to become a lot more intentional with how I interact with students because it really is kinda why we all do it. When you are middle management, you see it a lot less, And it's a lot more paperwork and which is so much fun. But leaving that office is like, let's talk to people. But yeah. So just being a lot more intentional in my interactions with them and Approaching them a lot more and making them talk to me a lot more.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:45]: So that 90 day space is a really critical upstart time for anyone in a new position. And even if you've been at the same institution, there's a lot to learn. So can you tell us about how you approached that 1st day of entering into that new space, you know, mentally coming onto campus and knowing, okay. Today, I'm the assistant director. And then how did you strategize for yourself looking ahead in those first Hyunmin Kim [00:08:05]: 90? When I transitioned, all of us were transitioning into new spaces as well. So my supervisor, who is still my supervisor, she's now the associate director, like, of the courtyards and the commons, and And we were looking for a new resident director. So within that 90 days, it was just a lot of hat juggling for me. It's like, are you still kind of the resident director? You're still kind of the assistant. My boss is busy. Like, I don't know where she is. Like, I'm just juggling hats here. And I think it was really just I have to hold down the fort 1st, cover all our bases, and then I can kind of process what it means to be an assistant director. Hyunmin Kim [00:08:39]: So I think for the 1st 45 days, it was just me, like, Cutting out fires, just making sure that, like, everything was, like, fine and ready, you know, for the move in process to start, like, late July, like, early August, just all of that. Like, make sure that all of that's ready. Making sure that my resident director is prepped and ready to go, thinking about what type of supervisor that I wanna be. So the 1st 45 days is just like, Like, the sky is literally falling. And then I think after those 45 days, after we got an a new resident director, I started to kinda have that mentorship responsibility. And I think It really hit me that day. It wasn't even the 1st day. I don't even think it was, you know, like, the 1st 45 days. Hyunmin Kim [00:09:14]: It was, like, the 1st, like, 60 days. My resident director just kinda sits out of my office. She kinda plops out. She just goes, How do you have all the answers, dude? I'm like, that was literally me last year. Right? Like, I was like, I got nothing for you. If you told me, hey, Hamdan, what's this policy? I'd be like, ask Olivia, who's my boss? And she just goes, how do you know everything? And I think During that conversation where she kinda felt like, I feel a little out of place because I feel like I don't know enough. And, you know, we were kinda able to have that Talk about, like, new employee kind of, like, loneliness, new employee, like, imposter syndrome that you feel when you're a new employee. I think helping her talk through that was kind of that, like, oh, I am someone's supervisor now. Hyunmin Kim [00:09:53]: And the kind of the pressure and the responsibility that comes with it, I think that it was that around that conversation when that hit. And that and that's kinda when, like, my mindset became less resident director and more assistant director. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:03]: Are you supervising professional staff now as well?   Hyunmin Kim [00:10:06]: Yeah. I have 1 resident director that I with us. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:08]: Okay. So you've gone from supervising all paraprofessionals to supervising 1 full time professional. Tell us about that transition and how you've adjusted your supervisory style and maybe any reading or research that you've done on how you can be a good supervisor for that person. Hyunmin Kim [00:10:21]: I think I prefer professional Staff member a little bit more because I think with RAs, we're friendly. We have fun, but we there's, like, a line that you can't cross. And I still have to be, like, conscious of them. I I mean, we're all developing, but they're, like, in that extremely, like, developmental stage of their lives. So I Think any and all criticism and, like, feedback that I give to them, I like to just kinda be a little bit more mindful with it. And I think with a professional staff member because it is their full time job, we kinda talked. I was like, hey. Like, so So what do you need from me as your supervisor? And after I kinda learned that and I knew her previously because she was my RA, actually. Hyunmin Kim [00:10:55]: She She transitioned from that. We all just kind of did a little bit of a small leap over. So carrying that relationship over, having that preexisting between professional and paraprofessional to professional and professional. There was a lot for me to learn. So I think I obviously I talked to some of my bosses. Right? I talked to some of my other colleagues. Started doing a little bit of reading, like, as to because since I did do my master's in, like, management, like, leadership, stuff like that, I went back to my readings, went back to some of the essays that I wrote just Like, what was I thinking in grad school? Like, do I still think that way? Right? Because I I think it hasn't been too long, but I think just working with students, I think your thought process is subject Change a lot. And then I watched The Office. Hyunmin Kim [00:11:33]: I'm not going to lie. I just kinda sat down. I just kinda watched The Office, which is it's always a show, but it's the show that American workers voted, like, was the most relatable to them because it just kinda felt like The Office. So I just Sat down, and I just kinda started watching Michael Scott, Jim Halpert. Just though those people just going through their day to day, supervising each other, and Kind of like how interesting, like because I'm a big pop culture guy, so just kinda synthesize that pop culture element with that academic element to try to Synthesized that, and then I talked to my supervisee about it, and then we just kinda worked out that relationship that way. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:05]: I think that's really fascinating that you use the office as kind of a Control case study on the work in higher ed. Because I think that, you know, the the core of Michael Scott as a character is that he's a horrible supervisor for most of his work, but he also deeply cares about his employees. He knows all the names of Angela's cats and things like that. Like, when Sprinkles dies, he doesn't even have to ask which cat. He just knows It's sprinkles. And so I think those things are are fascinating to learn. Like, oh, you can care deeply as a manager and still be a terrible manager, or you can be fairly decent as a manager, but your employees might not like to you. And there's probably a balance in there. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:36]: I like Radical Candor personally, where it's been challenged directly and care personally. Those things I I think are critical, but we're all learning how to operationalize them even if we believe them in philosophy. Hyunmin Kim [00:12:46]: I would say I'm doing alright, but, you know, I'll have to ask her tomorrow. It's like, can I have a do it? But it was fun. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:51]: So reflecting on that 1st 90 days now that you're you're through, is there anything that you wish you would have done a little differently to set yourself up for success? Hyunmin Kim [00:12:58]: I think I should have taken some more time to breathe in the 1st 90 days. I don't remember my 1st 90 days, if I'm gonna be completely honest. I blacked out For those 90 days. So if you told me what happened from May till, like, now, I'd be like, I couldn't tell you. There's isolated incidents, but I think I should have taken some more time to breathe. I'm a pretty reflective person normally, but I don't think I took as much time for myself to reflect During those 90 days, I think during that 1st week and stuff like that. I mean, obviously, I think thinking too much wouldn't have been great, but I think I just kind of, like, sped run it and just kinda push through it. So I think I just kinda overwhelmed myself to the point where, like, I think there was, like, a couple weekends back where I just had to, like, turn off, Every single device, like, every phone, I was like, hey. Hyunmin Kim [00:13:41]: I can't be on duty. Someone else can be on call. It's not me today. I just slept for, like, 18 hours, and And I was just like, I can't do this today. And I just ordered it and just, like, had a a me day, but I think that was long overdue because I think I should've Taking more time to take care of myself throughout that 1st 90 days. So Did you take a break at all between the RHD role and the assistant director role? Hyunmin Kim [00:14:02]: I had, like, a week and half home, which I think comes with other responsibilities. So when I'm home now, it's gotta help. I'm the eldest son of an immigrant family. Obviously, my parents, I'm very grateful. I think I have a less classic immigrant story than some of my other colleagues because my father is an English professor. So he's very fluent in English. I've never had to translate for that man. Like, that man speaks better English than most Americans do. Hyunmin Kim [00:14:24]: But it's just other responsibilities just being home, part of that community. So home is home, but it's not fully relaxing because you still gotta help your parents, your siblings while you're there, you know, the members of your community while you're there. So it went from, like, Helping 1 community to the next community. So by the time I got back, I was just, like, exhausted. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:42]: So resting is a great tip. And then looking at your journey in the last 90 days of what's been really amazing or what's gone really well for you, what's something that you would definitely repeat when you make your next 90 day jump? Hyunmin Kim [00:14:52]: This was by accident because we were like, our offices were under construction, but I had to share an office with my RD for, like, a month. So we had, like, a fun little buddy cop set up where, like, both of our desks We're, like, pushed together so, like, we'd face each other at work. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:06]: So you'd wait in gym? Hyunmin Kim [00:15:07]: Quite literally. I mean, we actually kinda have that dynamic as we play jokes on each together. It's very fun, but I don't know how feasible I would be in the next 90 day job because that would be a little bit of a higher position. But I really would wanna spend A lot more close time with the people that I supervise more so because those 30 days of me getting to know my RD a lot more Closer than when I knew her as an RA. It was just so much fun. It was in a very real time because she's my boss, like, question. And can we talk about this? Let's figure this out. We, like, interviewed our race together, like, in that office. Hyunmin Kim [00:15:38]: So it was a good time to kinda, like, very personally get to know her so I could have that professional, but also Have that, like, heart behind it. So now I can be like, alright. You better turn the center again. I'm gonna fire you, like, tomorrow. And she's like, yeah. If you would. And then we just, like, banter back and forth. We have, like, a very, like, Quippy and quirky dynamic, but I think that 30 days of sharing the office, I think, for me was extremely meaningful. Hyunmin Kim [00:15:58]: I don't know if she liked it, but I'd so if I could do that again, I'd wanna spend more time with the people that I supervise and a lot closer. Even if that meant I don't get to use my Nice office for a little bit. I just wanna spend as much time as I could with my supervisees before we hit the ball running again. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:13]: So you've shared a lot of wisdom related to your own transition. Is there anything else that you wanna share regarding the last 90 days? Hyunmin Kim [00:16:20]: I would just say, like, smile. Like, just smile and just kinda remember why you started higher ed. And I think that was a big thing for me. Because this job, I feel like the field can get tiring. Student affairs is is inherently a tiring role because it's a people role. Our job is people. Our job is emotion, and our job is care. And we're all humans, and I think we all have that breaking point of when we give too much of us and there's not enough of us left. Hyunmin Kim [00:16:44]: And I think just smiling, remembering back why you started, going back Pure roots. Even for me, and I haven't been in a position very long. Sometimes I forget why I started. It sometimes just feels like a job, and it is. But at the end of the day, it was a passion project that I started that's been with me since I was a kid, and I think I just remember back to that level of joy that I had as a kid just growing up in a residential facility, but then as a college student, just all the fun times with the residents. Just What other position can you just yell on the quad at strangers? And that's fine. And it it's higher ed. Right? It's just such a fun, quirky, just Charismatic field where there really aren't as many borders as you'd like to think, but it's the fields continuously growing. Hyunmin Kim [00:17:22]: So I would just say smile, remember why you did it, and just remember to, I guess just be really innovative in what you do. Just because there's a set precedent about what higher it's supposed to be doesn't mean that that's the precedent we're supposed to always follow. And I think being a little unorthodox with it, there's nothing wrong with that. So if you're listening, smile, remember back, and be a little chaotic. A little bit of chaotic. It never did anyone wrong, I think, as long as metered, obviously, but that would be my words of advice for anyone who wants to start or who's in that transitionary period. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:50]: And I'm hearing that as kinda smile for yourself, not like smile because other people are asking you to smile. Just to clarify. Absolutely. That's what I'm hearing. Thank you so much for the wisdom in this area. So let's look ahead for a second. You finished your 1st 90 days, like, moments ago. What are you looking at in the future 90 days? Hyunmin Kim [00:18:09]: Culture building is my next thing. So I'm a big believer in tradition and culture and fun rituals. So this idea got shut down, but I wanted to start, like, a ResLife Twitter account so we could, like, tweet other, Or I guess it's x now. But so we could start, like, talking to other resident halls so we could just casually hit up North Campus, be like, hey. Soccer 1 v one. Just kinda have that fun little banter between residence halls. They said we couldn't because, you know, like, it it'd be a problem. They're like, that's too professional. Hyunmin Kim [00:18:34]: I'm like, alright. My bad. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:36]: Wendy's do it. Hyunmin Kim [00:18:37]: Right. That's what I'm saying. Imagine you wake up one day and 1 dorm's calling and another dorm's stinking, and it's like, oh, this is funny. Like and then you kinda see, like, what knowledge each storm has. And, you know, I think that would raise resident engagement and interest because you don't see that very often, but they wouldn't me. So it's okay. I'll figure it out another way to do it. But, no, I think tradition and culture establishing what it is to be, like, at courtyards, I think for me is is really important because COVID stopped a lot of that. Hyunmin Kim [00:19:02]: A lot of those older traditions and and, like, I think we had some good traditions, but I think as we need to, we need to evolve, we need to grow, and we need to Be hip with the times as as one might say. Woah. Woah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hyunmin Kim [00:19:17]: I know. My students are gonna kill me for that one. But, yeah, establishing tradition and and real culture, like a courtyards culture is, I think, what I'm looking to do now. So I guess right now is just assessing the needs of our students, and I don't mean the needs educationally. They got enough education going for them. I am not trying to, like, school them anymore, but How can I educate them in other ways, socially, right, culturally, just athletically? And our students just love sports. UMD is a great school in regards to Sports. We have great intramurals. Hyunmin Kim [00:19:45]: So I think something that we're trying to establish is a ResLife Soccer League or football for other people in the world, but, like, kind of just Setting a precedent for what it means to live at the courtyard because we do have primarily upperclassmen, and we have been known to be called the retirement community and which is fine. Our on call structure is great because they don't cause us as much problems, but it's that stigma. Upperclassmen don't care about ResLife. They don't wanna do anything. And I think How to embrace that apathy and make them care, but not care enough, but care enough to where they wanna do it. So establishing that culture of upperclassmen, I think, is What we're really looking to do, setting up legacy too. So our student recruitment process is gonna start very soon, so finding younger RAs and, like, obviously, I wouldn't discriminate based on age, but I think I have a little bit of a goal of trying to get a bit younger faces, so maybe sophomores, maybe juniors, where they can do 1, 2 years, not just 1 year and they're out, but, like, one, years 3 years even so that we can kind of set that legacy, set that tradition, set that precedent so we can kinda just keep building back. And we'll keep building now that that lockdown period has been over, but setting culture, setting legacy, setting a precedent as what it's like to live at Courtyards. Hyunmin Kim [00:20:50]: This is my next 90 day journey. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:51]: You also mentioned something really important with the social media aspects, whether it be on a specific platform or not, which is just kind of trying to meet our students where they're at, which which has been a mission of student affairs professionals since the inception of the field. But I think what that means now for Gen zers is kind of embracing that Gen z humor that we see that some of us understand very well and some of us don't understand at all, but that Gen z humor is also relatable. And then balancing that line of we are still your university that's here to develop your student journey. And we know this research from millennials, but millennials hated it when their university was on Instagram and Facebook. And so it's also important to recognize that maybe that's how Gen z is engaging, but that's not how they wanna hear from us. So it it's kind of this fine balance of how we find it. Hyunmin Kim [00:21:36]: No. I think that's a really good point. It's like, how do we approach them? Because Gen Z is a little dark. They're a lot darker than, I think millennials, then they're very grind mindset heavy, but also, like, very, like, dark humor. So, obviously, it doesn't land well professionally Most of the time because you really can't say it in a professional setting. But I think finding that nuance of how to approach Gen z on social media has been An ongoing struggle with me because for us to really meet Gen z where they are, we do have to forego a lot of our preexisting notions of what it means to be a university account on social media. And fair enough, I think we're just scared of what the backlash is gonna be if we do start to adapt a little bit. Are we trying to be too hip? Like, Are we forcing it, or are we just unhinged, and are we offending people? And I think rightfully so, they stopped my idea, but I think it's our job also to try to figure out how we should modernize And meet them where they are or at least try to meet them where they are. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:27]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Christopher Lewis [00:22:34]: Thanks, Jill. Really excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a lot going on in NASPA. One of the things that I wanted to share today was a statement that NASPA put out just recently, the DACA ruling from the Southern District of Texas. If you didn't see that in your email, I am going to read it to you today to make sure that you are aware of NASPA's stance. A second ruling was issued in the middle of September by judge Andrew Hanon of the Southern District of Texas On the revised deferred action for childhood arrivals or DACA that sets up a likely return of DACA to the Supreme Court. Judge Hannon's decision reiterating his initial position that the program is unconstitutional signals a continued legal battle And holds in place a block on new recipients from applying, limiting the program's protections to current Recipients only. The Department of Homeland Security issued a final rule on DACA that should have gone into full effect on October 31, 2022. However, while an injunction from the US District Court for the Southern District of Texas remains in effect, DHS is prohibited from Granting initial DACA requests and related employment authorizations under the final rule. Christopher Lewis [00:23:57]: The political gamesmanship involved and the ongoing legal And legislative attacks on the DACA program continues the ambiguity experienced by an estimated 400,000 undocumented immigrants in higher education. NASPA supports the possibilities created by the DACA program, which provides educational and career pathways for immigrant students, faculty, and staff and creates a more robust and inclusive higher education community. We wish to amplify advocacy efforts by experts and organizations such as the President's Alliance on Higher Education and Immigration and the American Immigration Council Who are supporting students and advocating for permanent comprehensive legislative solutions. Reform is possible, full. Demonstrated by the introduction in this congress of the Bipartisan Dignity Act and the American Dream and Promise Act. Consult NASPA's position for immigration policy and higher education on the NASPA website for resources on advocating For a permanent solution with your lawmakers on the hill. We also encourage our members to download your state data 1 pager And the higher education immigration portal to develop evidence based talking points. You can go to the higher education immigration portal by going to to the following web address, higher ed immigration portal, all one word, .org. Christopher Lewis [00:25:25]: There's lots of deadlines coming up For the NASPA annual conference in Seattle, which is coming up over the next few months, and you wanna make sure that you're watching your email for those dates. One of the dates to keep in mind is November 3rd. That is the date that you do have to put in any request for non NASPA sponsored events, including events that might be from your own institution or from other organizations that you're a part of. So if you are planning to have a meeting or reception that you haven't put in yet, make sure to put that in soon. Also, watch in early October for the housing information for the conference. You know that those tend to fill up quickly, So you wanna make sure that you get your housing request in as soon as possible. And if you haven't registered yet, now is a great time. It's gonna be a great conference with tons of programs and a great way to reconnect and come back together To celebrate everything that is NASPA and everything that is higher education in student affairs. Christopher Lewis [00:26:33]: Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So We are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able To get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself Where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself In that knowledge community, I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to Think beyond what's available right now to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association because through doing that, all of us are stronger and The association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:58]: Producer Chris, thank you so much for your wisdom always in the NASPA world segment. We really appreciate you continuing to keep us updated on what's happening in and around NASPA. And, Hinnam, we've reached to our lightning round. So I've got 7 questions for you to answer in about 90 seconds. Here we go. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, What would your entrance music be? Hyunmin Kim [00:28:20]: Requiem by Mozart. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:21]: Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up? Hyunmin Kim [00:28:25]: A paleontologist. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:27]: Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor? Hyunmin Kim [00:28:29]: It'd be Hady Fultz at Kennesaw State University. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:33]: Number 4, your essential student affairs read. Hyunmin Kim [00:28:36]: Rainbow Fish, I don't know. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:38]: Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Hyunmin Kim [00:28:41]: How I Met Your Mother. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:42]: Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last fear. Hyunmin Kim [00:28:46]: The Daebak Show podcast with Eric Nam. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:48]: And finally, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional? Hyunmin Kim [00:28:52]: The listeners. Hi. Thank you for listening. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:54]: Alright, Hyunmin. You've made it to the end of our show. You've done an amazing job telling your 90 day transition story. Thank you so much. If listeners would like to reach you after the episode comes out, how can they find you? Hyunmin Kim [00:29:05]: My messages on LinkedIn are always open. I'm always open to connect with people. You guys can just type in Hyunmin Kim at the Courthouse University of Maryland. I should pop up. There's a picture of me smiling awkwardly because that's what I do. Or you can email me at h kim atcocm.com, and I'll get back to you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:21]: Hyunmin, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Hyunmin Kim [00:29:24]: Thank you for having me. I had so much fun. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:27]: This has been an episode of SA voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible well because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and please like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:08]: This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill l Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by diversity and the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this episode of "Student Affairs Voices from the Field," Dr. Kevin Kruger, President of NASPA, discusses his upcoming retirement and the transitions in student affairs. Dr. Kruger reflects on his 30-year journey at NASPA and the reasons behind his decision to step down as president. He emphasizes the importance of retiring on his own terms and while still making meaningful contributions to the field. Dr. Kruger also discusses the challenges and opportunities facing student affairs professionals, including the need to close attainment gaps for underrepresented students and navigate financial pressures on higher education institutions. He highlights the importance of staying intellectually engaged in retirement and shares his interests in history and leadership. Dr. Kruger also expresses his hope for NASPA's continued role in supporting student affairs professionals and advocating for the value of their work in higher education. He discusses some of the initiatives and partnerships NASPA has undertaken during his tenure, including the Center for First Generation Student Success and efforts to secure external resources to benefit NASPA members. Dr. Kruger concludes with gratitude for the privilege of working in the field of student affairs and the incredible people and teams he has had the opportunity to work with during his career. He reflects on his love for the work he has done and the positive changes he has witnessed in student affairs over the years. Dr. Kruger's unwavering dedication to NASPA and his desire to leave a lasting legacy have guided his decision-making process, ensuring a smooth transition for the organization as it enters its next chapter. Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues! Transcript Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season nine on transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your essay Voices from the Field, host today on SA Voices, it's truly my pleasure to welcome back Dr. Kevin Krueger, president of NASPA, to this season of Transitions. We've introduced Kevin a couple of times before. He's our only three peak guest on the podcast, so I'm not going to read his bio again, but just know that this is probably the last time we're going to have Dr. Kruger on the podcast as he has announced his own major transition. I really hope you enjoyed this episode, Kevin. We're so glad to have you back on SA Voices. Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:00:50]: I'm super thrilled to be here, and I understand I'm the only person so far who has had three podcasts with you all. So it's exciting to be doing my number third podcast. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:00]: Yes, you are the only three-pete, so far in the history of the show. There's a couple two Peters that we've got, but we're so glad to have you on for the season on Transitions. And I think this was actually a really apt theme given everything that's going on for you personally and for NASPA. So for those who have not yet read their NASPA email, kevin has announced a really, really big transition, which is coming very soon. And Kevin, do you want to tell us what that is? Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:01:24]: Yeah, sure. So I've made the decision to step down in my role as President of NASPA. There's some sort of timing around that that made sense for me. My contract ends this March of 24, and June 30 of 24 will be my 30 year anniversary of working at NASPA. So it made sense to lots of different personal ways as well as some professional ways to use that as an opportunity to open up a transition for NASPA. So me being here for 30 years and being serving as president for the last twelve, I think, creates a really unique opportunity for some new leadership of a great organization like NASPA that is a huge transition. And some of this is personal. Right. I've had a philosophy about my career for a long time and talking to people who have retired before me. And not to be kind of cute or clever about it, but I wanted to retire on my terms and when I thought I was doing my best work, when I was declining. Because there's a natural cognitive decline that occurs when you age. And so it was important to me to kind of do this in a time when I was still doing what I think is my best work and not to do it at a time when people are wondering, like, when is he going to go? Isn't it time. So that was important to me. So I've given a lot of thought to this over the last several years about what the best time was. And to be honest, I might have done it a little earlier, but the Pandemic, of course, created some serious organizational challenges for every association and business in the world. And so it was also important to me that I leave NASPA in the best possible financial position coming out of the Pandemic. And so I've been spending the last three years with my team trying to find out what the new kind of normal is for NASPA as an organization in terms of membership and programs and relationships with outside entities. And I feel like at this point, in a pretty good place, we've come out of the Pandemic in a very, very strong position. And so I feel like I'm able to hand off this organization to someone else who have a new vision in not having to worry about finance and organizational structure in the early goings of their term. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:14]: That's a gift. Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:03:15]: Yeah. I've thought a lot about sort of legacy and what's next. And Gwen was executive director. A lot of folks who knew Gwen and were around Gwen talked about Gwen being the right person at the right time when she came in and what she brought to NASPA. And I think in some ways I think of myself in the sort of same place. My strengths played very well to the opportunities that were presented when I came into NASPA as the President. And I think while I could continue to do that work, I think it's a great time for someone else to put their brand of leadership and vision on this great association and great profession. We've gone through a lot of transition over the time I've been here in twelve years. I mean, here's just a couple of markers. When I started as president, I think we had about 17 staff. We now have 95 staff. And that's in twelve years. That's a tremendous amount of growth. That's due to lots of different things. But clearly, I think my tenure at NASPE as the President will be a period of taking advantage of the opportunities that student affairs had, which is to expand its portfolio and its influence on campus. In a lot of ways, NASPE has been alongside the field in that way. And so I think that the next phase of NASA may not have that same kind of growth but will build off of where we are right now today as a profession and the challenges that we're facing. Right. So I think that's important as well. Last thing I would say is that I'm very cognizant of the fact that I have one of the best jobs in higher education and it's an enormous privilege to have that. And I also feel like it's such a good job that someone else should have a chance to do it. And so if I would work into my 70s, which people do yeah. I would just not create that opportunity for someone else to have their shot at this kind of really incredible job and opportunity. And I'll say something else that sort of doesn't preclude anybody from applying for this job. And by the way, I'm not involved in the search at all, nor should I be. But I think student affairs as one of the most, if not the most diverse sectors of the higher education world or the academy, I think that I have been able to lead with some integrity as a white male in this space. But I think that we need the next leader should represent who the field is demographically in a more significant way. And so I think it's time for a woman or a person of color or a woman of color to lead NASPA because I think that's important that we reflect who our field is. And the times have changed. And so I think that that is I really want to open up the opportunities for all kinds of new leadership that can come into NASPA. And so I give a lot of thought to that as well. As a person with enormous privilege as a white man who has had great opportunities that have come my way, I think it's time to step aside and let new leadership come into the space. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:42]: That's a lot of intentionality behind the why retire and why now? Questions. I'm wondering if you have advice for others who are considering that type of transition on how to identify that time that's not necessarily financially motivated. And I understand that that is probably the number one factor in determining when someone can successfully retire is that hopeful number or magic number, whatever they call it. The rule of 24, I think. Rule of 25 in your bank account. And that feels very unattainable to me. And I know a lot of other student affairs professionals, but let's pretend the financial piece is not in the picture. What are those factors that really led you to this space? Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:06:17]: Yeah, I think for me, this kind of job is all encompassing. It's a seven days a week. It's not 24 hours. But I mean, you're never not on this job. I'll give you a quick anecdote. We were I was on vacation and with my wife, something big happened in the United States. It was a terrible incident and had a racially motivated but it wasn't a higher ed incident. And so I knew that right away that I had to mark to my team and we were going to say something to our members about this incident. And in the middle of my vacation and my wife, who was not a higher ed person, she's in the sports broadcasting business, she was like, Why are we even commenting? And this has nothing to do with higher ed. I'm like, Because it matters to our students. It matters to the people in our field, and it doesn't matter that I'm on vacation. This is what you do. So my point of the story is that there's an exhaustion that just occurs when you're in a senior leadership role like this. That is part of the reason I've thought about retired hiring, because I just came back from a trip overseas, which is great, but I spend the first two, 3 hours of every day, even on vacation online doing work, because that's the nature of this job. And anybody in these kind of jobs does this. I'm not the only person that does this. Vice President affairs do this. AVPs do this. Directors do this. Lots of people do this. But after doing it for so long, I feel like it's time to step away and do something else. I'm also very thoughtful about this notion of passages, and your theme about transitions fits for me. It's a time in my life when I want to spend more time doing things that are personally renewing and a little less on the professional side. But I will tell you, the dilemma is we know that from people who study aging and people who are in this life transition space, that happiness is also tied to staying intellectually engaged. How do you step away from this but still do something that has meaning and that still engages me professionally and where I can also still give back where I have something to offer. So I've spent the last five, six years not just thinking about where I want to retire and in what place I want to retire and what my hobbies might be. But I've spent time actually literally interviewing people I know who have retired and asking them, what worked? What's working? What do you wish you had done more of? And lots of different approaches that people have had at this transition. So I was just given a lot of thought to basically have been a student of retirement. Yeah, the money part, of course, is a piece of it, but for me, it's more about what is the next phase of your life? What do you want it to look like? And I remember listening to someone was talking about retirement since maybe seven or eight years ago, and they were saying, when they ask people, Retire, what are you going to do? And they say, Well, I want to travel. And they would press a little further and say, well, how many trips are you going to take in that year? I'm like, maybe one or two trips. All right, 52 weeks. Let's just say you take two, two week vacations. What are you going to do for the other 48? Eight weeks? And I think that's an important thing to think about, right? Because yeah, sure. Do I want to travel? Of course. I love traveling. I have the privilege to have some resources to allow me to travel. But what am I going to do when I'm not traveling. So you have to think about a life that has meaning and richness to it, that goes beyond just going to London or Ireland for a two week vacation. And that's what I've given a lot of thought to. So where does that meaning come and what is it, and how do I want to spend my know? So I will be somebody, I'll tell you sort of maybe this is a question you might have asked me, but I'll tell you, I'm going to be someone who won't disappear. So I'm going to try to find the right space between giving the person who takes the presidency of NASPA who has that job, all of the space they need to do the job without me sitting near them. But for me also to use over 45 years of higher education experience to offer some perspectives that I have about the work and about the field without the constraints, perhaps, of the position of president. I mean, I can say things post presidency that I can't say in the presidency. So I'm kind of looking forward to maybe exercising my voice a little bit in ways that are not in the way of NASPA or not in the way of the new president, but sort of might have some value for the folks that I know in the field who are doing the work. So that's something I've given a lot of thought to, but I don't want another full time job. I've had people come to me and say, well, do you want to run this organization or you want to do this? No, I already have a great job, a great full time job. I'm not looking for another one. But I think it is important for me to find some spaces where I can stay intellectually engaged. I can't imagine a life where I don't think about higher education or I don't think about the work and think about how we can continue to serve our students. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:18]: I think the intellectually engaged component is so critical. I will wish my father a happy birthday. We're recording on his birthday today, and he is deep into his retirement life as well. And one of the things that both he and my mom talk about is that retirement doesn't mean you're done. It means that you get the freedom to do what you want to do. And they take classes at the university nearby. They go to lectures at their local art museum. They're huge theater buffs. They're deeply intellectually curious readers, and that intellectual engagement. They're also in very excellent physical health. But for the ages that they are, they don't look or act like people typically would expect them to at those ages. And I think that is truly because of that ongoing intellectual curiosity and also staying socially engaged and not just sitting around existing. You're working to live in a different way. I totally get that. Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:11:07]: Yeah. Health and money are the two big variables about retirement, some of which you have control over, some of which you don't. Right. So there's a gift if you're physically healthy. So far I am. But this notion of there's actually an organization that calls it so this is not my language, but of your encore career of what are you going to do? Post the work that you have now, where making money isn't necessarily the most important thing. Right. So when I talk to the people I know who are still engaged, some of whom you know, who are retired in the field but are still doing work, they're doing it because the love of the work rather than the necessity of the work, and they're not in the kind of the drive that we would necessarily have. So I think that gives you some opportunities to be creative and innovative in the way you want to live your life. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:47]: So I think I'm hearing blogger in your future. Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:11:50]: No, not blogger. I do think I want to write, though. I enjoy writing. I've always been a writer. This job has forced me to write in certain kinds of ways. But I think I'll think about I haven't quite figured out where and how in what way, but maybe I shouldn't say no blogger, but I mean, that's some kind of writing that would allow me to reflect on what's happening in higher education from a different seat. So I think that's part of it and some of it maybe not necessarily outward facing, might be just more inward facing. So I've always been intellectually curious. You talked about your parents being intellectual, and I've always been that way. And many of the people listening to this well, have heard me speak before. So you know that I spend a couple of hours every day reading. And right now I read mostly higher ed stuff. I mean, that's just the nature of it. But I have a lot of intellectual curiosity about other things in our world. Higher education is one of them. But when I go into a bookstore, which is kind of anachronistic theme right now, but Barnes and Noble still exists, when I go in Go bookstore, I'm just struck by how much stuff I want to read. I just walk through the nonfiction section. I'm like, I want to know more about that. I'd love to know more about that. I'd love to know more about that. And I think that that will be part of my journey, will be also be just continuing my lifelong education about lots of things that want to know more about. And some of that has nothing to do with higher education. So I think one of the things I'm most excited about is being able to explore some of my own intellectual interests that aren't higher ed oriented, where now I don't have the time to do that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:06]: Do you mind sharing what those are. Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:13:07]: Strong ones for me. I was a European history major in college. So history has always been a part of my kind of curiosity. And so I'm very, very drawn to the lessons that we can learn from understanding history, and particularly sort of in geopolitical sense. So as we think about where our world is today, a lot of that has roots in history. And so there's more of that kind of analysis that I'm interested in understanding just as I try to make sense of this complicated world we live in. So that's one of them, for sure. The other one is my second job in the field was running the leadership program at the University of Maryland. And I don't know how that came about. I kind of stumbled into it to some degree. But I understood very quickly that I had a really huge interest in understanding how people I've been very introspective about myself, my own leadership style over the years. And so I'm fascinated with reading about how people are successful in organizations. And so that's another place where I've spent some time as well thinking about. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:58]: All of the things you're excited about for the future in your own world, in your own life. You also mentioned kind of excitement for the field as well. So I'm just wondering if you have any future wishes for where NASA will go next. Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:14:10]: Well, I think that student affairs is at a little bit of a nexus right now. So I think post pandemic, there's elements of the work that we do that have been elevated in some important ways. And then I think, as we think about some of the really serious challenges that institutions face around addressing what I consider to be the most important priority for higher education, and that is, how do we close attainment gaps for low income students, first generation students, students of color in particular, black students, Latinx students, some portions of the API community, indigenous students. These things have been around for decades, these attainment gaps. And there seems to be a lot of energy in higher ed now about addressing some of these issues. We call it now student success. And I think student affairs is at the table for that conversation with its economic colleagues. I think that's great. So I see a lot of really high priority areas where student affairs and the value of his work is recognized. At the same time, the financial pressures facing higher education are enormous and financial challenges are coming to almost every institution in the country, and some of that will affect student affairs. So how do we do our best? Work is work that is so important for our society at a time when financial structures are being challenged. I'll give an example without naming the institution. So this institution, maybe seven or eight years ago, understanding this sort of challenge around attainment issues and student success created a Student success center and hired a team of student success coaches. It's a strategy that works, has been proven to work very effectively, particularly with some of these populations that I'm talking about. That particular institution is one that's in a part of the country that's experiencing enrollment challenges and demographic challenges. And so they had some budget challenges and one of the first moves they made was to fire almost all those student success coaches. It probably seemed like it was a more recent ad. They didn't want to cut an academic program. The challenge that college presidents and boards are facing today. But that very decision works against the goals that the institutions have about increasing enrollment for low income, first gen students of color. And so I think that these are the kind of really tough decisions that institutions have to make. And sometimes student affairs is going to be negatively affected by that. And so when I get in front of an audience of student affairs folks, I talk about this sort of dual challenge, the work and the money, the resources. And everybody's asked the same question, well, how do we do this? How do we do this? So NASPA, this is a long answer to a short question. So I think NASPA has to be part of helping institutions and student affairs professionals guide them through how you can maneuver these dual challenges. It's not easy, right? And I think we need examples of institutions have done this effectively and how they have reorganized or reoriented the resources to address some of these challenges and still do the good work where they've had to make tough decisions about doing a little less of this and a little bit more of that. And so I think NASPA has always been sort of shoulder to shoulder with our field in helping the field sort out how to address some of these challenges. And there's no simple answer to this, but I can think of examples. I was at a program that we ran summer before last. And so I have said this in some of my speeches. I've said that student affairs is going to have to make the difficult choice to move resources to the students who need us the most and away from students who don't need us as much. Okay? So there are students who are highly privileged economically and perhaps for other reasons as well that simply don't need almost any support in their journey through college and they will thrive. And there are others who have enormous barriers facing their progress. So higher education, which was built on serving the elite, we've always been sort of tilted sometimes to serving population of students, sometimes who don't actually need the services we're in, the support we're providing, can we shift that to a place where we're providing more resources for students who need us more? Simple thing to say. So at this meeting, one vice president of student affairs said, we did this. And they talked about the things that they did to make that difficult change. And this person shared some of those examples. And then at the break, after I was done with this particular session, it was like a crowd gathered around this vice president who's like, tell us how you did this. That's the NASPA story. Okay, so the NASPA story is, how do we find these examples and help others think about strategies to get there? So that's what I hope for NASPA. And I think that to some extent, I think that I would also say that the future for NASPA and NASPA's role is the same one that existed for my tenure here. And that is that the work that we do with students, I think is enormously important and sometimes isn't valued in the same way by the academy. And so I have spent twelve years getting in front of presidents, chief business officers, admissions officers, procurement officers, facilities people. I've been on a tour of higher education to try to lift the understanding of the value of what we do, not for our own sake, but because I believe it's important, because I believe it makes a difference. And I believe that the best institutions have figured out a way to marry this curricular academic world with a rich, out of class, cocurricular, whatever you want to call it, world. And that those institutions have created that secret sauce that allows students to thrive. And I think sometimes people just don't understand what we do, and it seems like wasted resources. So I think the next phase and aspect is a continuation of taking advantage of the megaphone that we have to talk about why what we do is important, why it exists, and what makes this so unique that it's worth investing in the resources. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:26]: I'd like to take a moment to talk about legacy a little bit. And I'm just wondering if there's anything in your tenure at NASPA and you came up from a mid level position into the presidency over a period of time, but anything in particular that you're extremely proud of or a program or service or an idea that you were on the team of leading that you feel like has really changed the profession positively? Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:19:47]: First of all, and I don't say this casually, my legacy is the profession's legacy. It's the team that I've worked with. I've been gifted to work with unbelievably talented people at NASPA and still do. So I think I never have thought about it as my legacy as much as helping student affairs as a field move in directions that are in the best interest of serving our students. So I can give you a couple of examples. I think I'm enormously proud of the work that we're doing with the center for First Generation Student Success, working with over 300 institutions now to lift up first generation status and student as an asset for campuses and how we can help campuses think about their policies and their programs and the way they support students in order to increase attainment for those for first generation students. A highly intersectional population, right? Of we're disproportionately low income and of color. It's personal for me. I was a first generation student myself, and so obviously I'm a long ways away from those challenges with the enormous privilege I have in my life. But I can speak to those issues and I know that that's important for us to pay attention to. Enormously proud of the work we've done in lifting up health, safety and well being initiatives on college campuses over the last ten years. Something that now is sort of a given in our conversation about the work that we do about the work we do around well being and mental health and sexual violence and a variety of other components. But that wasn't necessarily a given 15 years ago. And so I think the work that our team has done in the health safety wellbeing space is enormously important, not just for helping student affairs folks, but also for guiding the academy forward in those areas. I think that those are two that really stand out. I think when I became president, I said to my team at the time, if the educational philanthropic community doesn't want to fund the work that we are about in student affairs, that says a lot about how the world views student affairs. And so part of my priority also has been to engage the educational philanthropic community in important ways to support initiatives that are serving students through the work we do in student success and student affairs. And we've been successful at that. We are one of the three coordinators of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation's post secondary education initiatives. We coordinate the advising reform movement in higher education through the Gates Foundation. We've done incredible work with Alumina foundation. Strada Cresky. I mean, there's so many folks who are interested in funding the work that we do to serve our campuses and our students. And I think that is also something I'm extremely proud of. In the depth of the pandemic, everybody had to shift to online work, right? We all did that immediately and right away, myself and our team was like, well, I wonder who's doing it the best? What are some really good examples of how we can lift up examples of how campuses have pivoted so quickly to provide outstanding service and support to students? And so we went to the Gates Foundation, said, hey, we have this idea, would you be willing to fund it? Yes. And so that borne this sort of project where we actually gave money to campuses, to twelve campuses who were doing exemplary work in providing online student services. But that comes about through a relationship you can have with the educational philanthropic community. And so that's something I'm really proud of. And our team has been very successful in bringing in resources, external resources, which has also. As an aside, allowed us, for example, to not raise individual membership dues for almost ten years. Something that we don't really talk a lot about, but we kept our membership dues kind of flat. And we were able to do that because we're able to bring external resources to the organization, which allowed us to serve our members in as cost effective ways as possible. Registration fees for conferences. We're probably, if you list 20 organizations at the bottom in terms of registration fees, they're still high. But we've been able to do that because we have been successful in seeking external resources. So I think those are some things that I think provide some real support going forward. Another thing I'd mention, though, is NASPA has been a very entrepreneurial organization. The Placement Exchange is a good example of that, which now is virtual. But at the time when we partnered with a Kuoi in that we created a new vision for how we can bring together multiple associations together. The idea of hiring the best possible people in our field, that was kind of a revolutionary idea at the time. Now everybody sort of knows about the Placement Exchange. That's something like that. We saw opportunities to serve populations that we hadn't been serving. So, for example, we have continued with a partnership. Initially, from the University of Louisville, we created the Military Connected Student Conference, now the only place in higher education where people who work with veterans and military connected families and military connected students can come together to talk about how we can serve that population. So I think that the legacy is seeing places where there have been needs and then trying to create programs and resources and research and opportunities to serve those needs in ways that perhaps weren't around maybe ten or 15 years ago. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:15]: Any final thoughts for the NASPA community on this transition? Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:24:19]: Well, it's not a thought. It's really gratitude. I mean, I have been unbelievably privileged to work in this field. I loved the work I did on campus, and I have loved the work I did at NASPA. And part of what I love about NASPA is really two things. One is I'm going to say three, the belief in what we do, amazing people that I've gotten to meet over the last twelve years, just for sure. And then the incredible team of people that work at NASPA who are committed to this work and who wake up every day thinking about how we can serve our members and serve our students. So I have a lot of gratitude about just what an incredible opportunity that has been for me personally. And to have had a front row seat on the evolution of student affairs over the last 30 years. We're not what we were 30 years ago, and we're not where we were ten years ago. And so to be in this chair has been enormously privileged. And so I have enjoyed literally every single day I've come to work. Just leave you with that thought. I mean, very few people have a job where they come to work every day, and they love what they do every single day. And I've had that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:18]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:24]: Welcome back to the NASPA World. Really excited to be able to talk to you again today. There is a ton of things happening this fall that I know I want to make sure that all of you have the access to taking advantage of and you don't miss out on. One of the things that's coming up here in January of 2024 is the 2024 NASPA Symposium on Military Connected Students. This is an annual event, and in this event, it is running from January 30 to February 1 in Louisville, Kentucky. The Call for Programs deadline for this great event has been extended, and you have now until October 2 to be able to put in a proposal. You can showcase your expertise, research innovative ideas to people that are completely supportive of military connected students. So whether you have a comprehensive program, insightful research findings, or best practice to share, we definitely want to hear from you and have you submit a program for this amazing conference. If you don't have a program that you want to submit, you can also be a reviewer of the programs. And if you'd want to be a reviewer for the program, again, the deadline is October 2 as well. And you did get an email about this from NASPA, but if you didn't, you can also go to the 2024 NASPA Symposium on Military Connected Students website. On the NASPA website under events to be able to get more information. It's a brand new term, and that means that all of us have different goals, things that we're doing professionally, personally, to be able to extend our own learning as well as doing more to be able to connect with our students. One of the things that I always encourage people to think about is your own professional development. And one way to be able to grow and learn is through books. So this is a great time of year to be able to go to the NASPA Bookstore and be able to discover or rediscover the joy of reading. And as a special treat, the NASPA Bookstore is providing NASPA members with a remarkable 30% discount on their catalog of books spanning various subjects. So whether you're a devoted reader, an inquisitive learner, or searching for the perfect gift to a colleague, the NASPA Book Collection has something for everyone. So don't miss out. Use promo code Fall 23 at checkout. And that's all one word, Fall 23, to unlock this exclusive offer and enrich your reading experience. Another conference that's coming up in December, december 7 through the 9th in Washington, DC, is the 2023 NASPA Racial Equity and Social Change Conference. This was formally known as the Multicultural Institute. The NASPA Racial Equity and Social Change conference fosters dialogue on Equitable campuses. The shift to a racial equity framework amplifies the focus on dismantling racialized systems for broad benefit. This inaugural conference emphasizes content centered on promoting racial equity, equity leadership, institutionalizing justice and equity through organizational change, as well as creating a climate of care for staff and students. The program looks to have amazing program, amazing sessions, but one of the featured speakers that was just announced is Bettina Love, who is the William F. Russell professor at Teachers College of Columbia University. She's also a best selling author of We Want to Do More Than Survive in 2020, and the Kennedy Center in 2022 named her one of the next 50 leaders making the world more inspired, inclusive, and compassionate. Registration for the conference has an early registration deadline of October 6. So if you're ready to make plans to come to Washington, DC. For this upcoming conference in December, you definitely want to take advantage of that early deadline and jump in right away. Every week we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Because the association is as strong as its members and for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit, where do you want to give back? Each week. We're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in. That knowledge, community. I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:04]: Chris, it's always great to hear from you on what's going on in and around NASPA. Kevin, we have reached our lightning round, and as our only three Pete guests, we have completely unique lightning round questions for you that our audience has never heard. So you're in for a ride. Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:31:18]: You ready? Ready. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:20]: All right. Question number one the album or song you can listen to on repeat forever? Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:31:25]: Oh, wow. Ramble on by Led Zeppelin. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:28]: Number two, what was your graduate degree or degrees in and did you use it in your job? Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:31:34]: I'm laughing because my graduate degree was in counseling and personnel services, basically a master's in PhD in Higher Ed student affairs. And yes, I have used it. I use it every day. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:44]: Number three, your guilty pleasure book series. Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:31:47]: I love reading mysteries, so Harlan Cobin would be the one I would pull out. I've read every single one of his books. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:53]: Number four, if someone visits your city, Washington, DC. What is the top tourist destination they have to see? Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:31:59]: The Madagascar cockroach exhibit in the Natural history museum. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:03]: Number five, the best advice someone ever gave you? Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:32:05]: Gene Ward, Director of Housing at Southern Methodist University in 1982, when I was getting ready to leave go from being an area coordinator, and I applied for a job at the University of Maryland, and he said, I was really worried about that, I hadn't finished my work and I had more to do. And he said, Kevin, stick your finger in a glass of water and then pull it out and you see there's no hole left, is there? He said, Organizations will always adapt to you moving on. And that's how I feel today. That's perfect advice for the mind. NASPA, I will leave and ask will continue to live and thrive. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:31]: Number six, any new podcast recommendations? Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:32:34]: Yeah, I just on my ride to North Carolina, listened to Scamanda, which is this staggering story about a woman who raised all this money going through her journey with cancer, and it turns out she never had cancer. It was just amazing. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:48]: Oh, I'm adding that one immediately. And finally, number seven, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:32:55]: This is so many people that I would shout out to, but I have to really kind of come back to the people that have supported me in my life. My wife, Lisa Hansen, who was beside me through this entire journey of being national president. We started dating, actually, when I applied for the job, so she's been here with me the whole time and in some ways, in a weird way, my kids. My daughter just graduated from the University of Maryland and is working, and my son graduated in the Pandemic. And so I've had them both as a proud father, but also as sort of watching their journey through college in real time. And I think that's helped me be more effective in the work that I do. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:29]: Well, Kevin, it's always a pleasure to have you on the show. Since you are going to be with NASPA just a little while longer, what's the best way for folks to get a hold of you? Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:33:36]: So you can always go to the website and find my email address, but I'll tell you what it is. It's KKR Uger [email protected]. I answer every email personally, so if somebody finds anything I had to say here. Interesting. I want to expand on it. I'd love to have a dialogue with you about it. So just write me a note. It's easy to find me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:52]: Well, thank you so much for your service to the profession and to NASPA over the years. And of course, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Dr. Kevin Kruger [00:33:58]: It's been great being with you. Jill, thank you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:01]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field, brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L. Craighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show. And please, like, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill L. Creighton Seth Me produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to Duke Kunshan University and the University of Michigan, Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Welcome back to SA Voices From the Field. In this episode, titled "Discovering Resilience: Clarissa Mae Calimbas' Story of Professional Transformation," we are joined by Clarissa Mae Calimbas, Assistant Director for Student Organizations at San Jose State University. Clarissa Mae takes us on a journey through her professional career, from her early days as a transfer student to her current role overseeing 350 student organizations. She shares her experiences of being terminated from her first professional position during the height of the pandemic, and how she found the strength to rebuild her professional confidence. Through her story, Clarissa Mae reveals the importance of finding the right fit and staying true to one's values, even in the face of uncertainty. We also delve into the topic of transitions in Student Affairs, exploring the challenges faced by professionals and the various opportunities for growth and development. Join us as we dive deep into Clarissa Mae's inspiring journey and gain valuable insights into navigating transitions, building resilience, and finding one's voice in the world of Student Affairs.   Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season nine on transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your essay, Voices from the Field. Host Welcome back to a new episode of SA voices where our Transitions guest today is Clarissa Mae Calimbas. Clarissa Mae is the assistant director for student organizations at San Jose State University, or SJSU. In her role, she oversees the recognition and compliance processes of 350 plus recognized student organizations. She did her undergrad at SJSU, where she majored in Child and Adolescent development and completed her master's in Educational leadership at Old Dominion University. Clarissa Mae is also a current first year doctoral student studying Educational Leadership at SJSU. Outside of work, Clarissa Mae enjoys going to Orange Theory Fitness and learning how to DJ. You can connect with her on Linkedin. You can find her on Twitter @_Clarissamae or on Instagram @_Clarissamae. Clarissa, welcome to the show. Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:01:14]: Hi. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:15]: How's it going for our listeners? Clarissa and I met, I think, two annual conferences ago, maybe two or three annual conferences ago now when we were doing some sort of I think it was a scavenger hunt for discord. Does that sound right? Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:01:27]: Yeah, it was like a discord group. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:29]: And I ended up finding you in person at the Apikc Social. Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:01:33]: Yes. Now I'm starting to remember. Yeah, that tracks. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:35]: We're glad to have you today to talk about your transitions in higher education. We always like to kick off our episodes by asking our guests how they got to their current seat. Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:01:44]: That is such a good question. I've been really reflecting on this because this academic year is my fifth year as a professional, and I also currently work at my alma mater. So it's been exactly ten years since I first attended my current institution that I work at. How did I get there? I think I first came in as a transfer student. Didn't really like, there wasn't much for transfer students to get involved, and I kind of put myself out there because all my friends were out there, and then people took notice and were like, hey, you're good at this. You should do this field of student affairs. And they always told me, if you're going to go do this, you have to go away before you come back. And so I went to grad school across the country before coming back to my home state of California, worked at a couple institutions. Before I came into my current position, I've been in an interim role, and then I came back as a coordinator, and then just this past May, actually, last week was three months into my new role as an assistant director. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:49]: Congratulations. That's a major, major thing to especially get that interim title taken off it's. Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:02:54]: Been surreal to kind of been in two interim roles before coming back and being able to permanently be an employee. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:00]: That interim space is one of the reasons I'm really excited to talk to you about your transitions on the show for this season. I think that interim space for people who have never been in it is a little bit nebulous. And so I'm wondering if you can talk about why you decided to take an interim position, as well as what it's like to transition into a space that, you know, is a bit ephemeral. Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:03:21]: Yeah. So I had actually done my first interim appointment in 2017, and it was the first it was kind of my first paraprofessional job at the time. They had offered it to me as a way to prepare me before I went off to graduate school, and that is exactly what it did for me. And I finished my grad program, came back to my home state, worked at other institutions, and in 2021, I was actually terminated from my first position as a professional. And it was tough because it was like, at the peak of COVID and I wasn't sure if I was going to come back into student affairs. And so I took a job working as a sales associate at Orange Theory Fitness, where I would sell memberships and help set up the equipment for the coaches and whatnot. And another position at my current institution had opened up. A search had failed, so they had to move people around, and there was an opening, and they reached out to me because they knew, of course, it got terminated. She's searching, she's grinding it out. And they reached out to me and had offered me an interim appointment. And I work at one of the California state universities, so I work at one of the 23 campuses. When you're appointed an interim role, it's anywhere between four to six months. And I had just started at Orange Theory. I think I was like one or two weeks in when they called and were like, hey, we want you to come work for us. And I had actually interviewed for a job there and didn't get moved on as a final candidate. So for me, I had some animosity, but I was like, I have nothing to lose at this point. I needed the insurance, I needed the benefits, and it was a place that I was so familiar with, and I felt safe enough to kind of rebuild my confidence as a professional. And so I took the job, and I was also applying to other institutions for a permanent role. And so once I had landed a permanent role at another institution, I ended my interim appointment, and I worked at this other school for six months. And once they opened up the role for my first permanent position at the institution I'm at, I jumped at the opportunity to apply. So I was with institution B for six months. And then I moved back to Institution A, which is the institution I'm at now. And I was also told, hey, you've applied for this job you've interviewed. You deserve to be here. And I had done the work before and that was kind of like that common, like, we want you and I want you. So to be in that interim space is really scary because it's like for me, I felt like I was on a time crunch to apply, apply. But also I think for me it was a scary time, right. Because it's like you're not guaranteed permanency. You're not guaranteed the idea of, oh, that safety net of having a permanent job. And so being in that unknown professionally is just really scary. When your livelihood is on the line. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:10]: You said something really important and very real for American student affairs professionals, which is when you don't have a job, you may not have health insurance. And that puts an interesting crunch on a job search that doesn't exist for professionals in many, many other parts of the world. So I think that puts a lot of pressure on these types of transitions, more so than you might see other places. So I actually want to back up a little bit to the moment where you started to figure out how are you going to get on your feet after that first job came to an end and you ended up in a sales associate position. So just not necessarily aligned with your training and your master's degree and things like that. So how did you make the determination that sales was the place that you wanted to get on your feet? Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:06:51]: Yeah, so I was let go in early May and I used all of June. I wasn't going to apply. I was just going to really sit and process and also going back to the whole thing about health and the benefits. I was told your benefits were going to end like that end of the month in May. So I took advantage and booked all my appointments to make sure that I was going to use it until I was covered that whole like two or three months. When I didn't have healthcare benefits or insurance, I knew I could go into sales. And I chose Orange Theory specifically because I was a member of the studio. And so I kind of had always had so much respect for the people that worked at the front desk. I've had a lot of respect for some of the coaches. Some of the coaches were actually student affairs professionals. Like this was their side hustle. And I'd always joked around like, hey, I want to be a coach one day. Maybe this will be my side hustle. I'm currently in a doctoral program, so this Orange Theory side hustle for me is after the doctorate. But I knew I wanted to go into Sales because I knew the money was kind of there. I knew we were going to be paid on commission and it was biweekly, so I knew I would have some sort of security, like financial security and financial stability coming through until I could get fully on my feet and figure out everything else. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:11]: So then you decided, okay, I'm going to head back into the land of higher education. Thought process did you go that? Yes, you were going to make that decision? Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:08:21]: I wasn't sure if I was going to go back into higher ed. I just want to give a shout out to everyone in Apikc that who knew what was going on to me at the time. They were sending me job postings. They knew I was location bound. They were helping me with my resume, all the interview prep. As much as I thought my heart wasn't in it anymore, other people could see that I was really meant to be in the profession and I'm really meant to be in the field. And I think if I didn't have that community and that network, I for sure would have been out of the field by now. So I think it's so important when you're going through transitions, whether it's personal or professional, to really have that network and have that community of people that just hold you accountable. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:04]: And so when you're thinking about the things that mentorship did for you and your support in this process, what are some of the best pieces of advice you got from mentors? Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:09:13]: The best piece of advice that I had got from a mentor was that and I learned this the hard way, it was that my first job was not going to be my dream job. And I think I had had these rose colored glasses in the time that I was in that first position where I was like, oh my God, I'm actually a student affairs professional. It's all great and whatnot, and when that plug gets pulled, suddenly it's a wake up call. And I realized once someone pointed it out to me was I had seen it as a dream job, but that wasn't the case based on how I was being treated, but also just how much I was putting in and not really seeing the payoff there. I think one of my favorite pieces of advice was that all of this happening to me was just building character in the end. It's not the end for me, but I think had I gone through this later on in my life, I probably would have left the field and not looked back. And I think to be able to go through this so early in my professional career, like first job, I think it's built that grit and resiliency that they don't really teach you in grad programs. And that's also the first time where I really learned what Fit meant and how important and how it's okay to really put into perspective what is important to you, like what are your values and whatnot? Because I felt like I lost so much of my values and what mattered to me in that first position, just trying to fit in and trying to be the perfect employee that in the end it didn't work out and who ultimately lost it was me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:45]: And I always like to be careful about the word fit because how it can be weaponized to marginalize people. But what I'm hearing you say is there was a values misalignment between what you were hoping to do and what the institution maybe was looking for. Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:10:59]: Yes, that was something hard to sit with. And I think one of the earliest red flags for me was watching the other color of people leave on my team. They all had left within the first 88 days of me starting in this role. And it's so easy to count because we were on a 90 day probation when you first get hired. And so every month since I had started in that role, someone had always left and it was always someone who was of color. And so when you're the only person of color and a predominantly white team working at a very marginalized serving institution, I felt like I had the worries of my students on my backs and trying to carry that and bring it to the table and advocate for them was tough. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:45]: Then we are really talking about fit in that kind of coded, pushing out marginalized populations kind of way. And I think that's something that we need to remain conscious of in student affairs and really in all professions on how that can be used as a weaponized tool to further marginalize those who already struggle systemically to be included. So you've then decided that, yes, you are going to employ that grit for yourself and you're going to try again, you're going to reenter the field. You did this interim role, you took a second position after that. So how did you take that grit that you've self described as well as the things that you process to say yes to coming back into student affairs? Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:12:28]: That was such a good question. I think after processing everything and the grit and that resilience, I think it's knowing that this is my own experience and no one has the same experience as me and the same thought process and being able to take that and bring it with me wherever I go. I used to be so ashamed to talk about what had happened to me and now I'm not afraid to speak up about it and talk about it and lead into how it's made me into a better professional now. It's helped me better understand every different things and different issues students go through. I feel like I came back with a thicker skin, which I think is so important to have in this field. And I think now coming back and feeling like I'm a little stronger, and I'm a little more. I have wisdom, and my opinions and my thoughts really matter. It's given me the opportunity to speak up more. I used to be so scared to speak up. I used to be so scared to talk about my ideas. But I think the experience of all these transitions and all of these experiences, good and bad, has just kind of made me into the person that I am now, where I'm a little more unapologetic now. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:36]: As a professional, we always need women of color to be less apologetic. Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:13:39]: Yeah. Period. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:41]: So as you've grown into your career, now you're sitting in an Assistant Director seat. I believe you went from being a member of your team to being part of the leadership team in your department. Is that right? Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:13:50]: I started in the office May 2022 as a coordinator, and then in May 2023, I started as the Assistant Director. So they treated it just like a typical search, where it was like the job posted and I applied and interviewed. And it is so hard and so scary to interview in front of your coworkers because they know you and they know your personality. And I think to be able to do that and get over that fear and to also be in this position I've been in this Assistant Director role for three months. And then just full context, our Director has just started last Thursday, so we have a brand new Director. We have an interim Associate Director, and a couple of openings on our team. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:36]: Tell us about how you prepared to interview with people that you already know and who know you. Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:14:41]: I think what carried me through in that preparation was I knew what was on the line because the previous role that I was doing, it was a coordinator for Student orgs role, and it's one person that oversees 350 student organizations. It's a lot of compliance work, and I feel like misunderstandings where no one really knows what you're doing. And the easiest way that I explain it to people is that, oh, I just look at spreadsheets and I grade canvas quizzes and I email people, but there's just a lot of behind the scenes that nobody really gets to see. And so I knew personally what my role consisted of as the coordinator, and I knew what the coordinator needs from the Assistant Director. And so I carried that thought process with me as I was preparing for the interview. Preparing for the presentation was like, if there's anyone that knows what this job is going to need, it's going to be me. And being a woman of color, where's the line between being cocky and being actually confident was something that I had struggled with, like preparing for the interview. And also the role that I'm currently in is also brand new. So I'm like the first person, so I feel like there's a lot of weight carried on in terms of, like, I have to perform a certain way. I said I would do XYZ Am I going to be able to do it? I don't have a coordinator underneath me, so I feel like I put a lot of pressure on myself to really be great, but also not let anyone down on my team. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:12]: And you prevailed, so your strategy was a good one. Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:16:15]: Yes, and I'm surprised it worked. Why? I think because of just feeling like I'm always misunderstood and no one really kind of understanding my thought process and how I process things. And so I think to be able to articulate it in a way where people actually understood it in this one moment in this presentation that I had to give for my interview, where in my head, I feel like I'm fighting for my life. I will never forget when I came back to work the next day, there was a lot of buzz with the team. I didn't know you could be this confident. I didn't know you can bring it like that. I think a lot of the times people just kind of see me as really laid back and kind of quiet and minding my business. And I think the person they saw in that interview was someone who doesn't really show out that way on a daily basis. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:03]: And now that you've occupied the role for a couple of months, how has that changed the way you approach your team and the work? Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:17:10]: It was interesting because they consider it a promotion, which I understand. For me, the way that I approach my work has shifted significantly because I'm also in the doctoral program. So I'm balancing work, I'm balancing school, which is really exciting. But I remember being offered the job, and I was told there's going to be some dynamics that change, and I didn't understand that at the time. Sometimes I feel like I'm excluded from my coworkers. Now they're on the coordinator level and I'm on the assistant director level. And in our office, if you're an assistant director or an associate director or the director, you're considered the leadership team. And I understand that that is part of the process of being a leader. It's hard. I'm such a people person, and so being excluded kind of hurts sometimes. But now I'm beginning to understand that that's okay because I have other besties and other friends and partners across campus who are in the same parallel position as me, where it's like we also are on leadership teams for our offices, and we can't just vent down, and so we just vent across to each other. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:18]: That's one of the most interesting things about coming into mid level leadership, is that you're a part of many teams, a junior member of some teams, you're a senior member of other teams, you're in the middle of some teams. And that really changes the way that we process and talk about information, I think, either consciously or subconsciously. Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:18:33]: I think since joining the leadership team at work, I've definitely been a little more conscious about what I share and what I open up to the team in terms of operations or what's going on with other coworkers, just because I now understand that some things are better kept private. Or it's like, I would rather you find out from senior leadership than from me because I'm still brand new. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:57]: So kind of looking at the culmination of all the transitions you've had over the last couple of years, what would you like to say to past Clarissa when these transitions all began? Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:19:07]: Oh, my God. I would tell Past Clarissa that everything you're going through, it's not the end of the world. You're going to be okay. Take a deep breath. I feel like, at the time, I thought it was the end of the world. I thought it was the end of my professional reputation, and I thought no one was going to want to hire me because I just had so much trauma. Like, I was carrying that with me professionally. And I think I would tell Past Clarissa, too, that everything you want is on the other side of fear. You just have to be able to get over it, whether that's going to therapy, whether that's just kind of facing it head on. There's good people out there that will always be in your corner and support you. And I know this process of transition and coping and processing, it's not possible to do this all alone. And I'm just so thankful that so many people just had my back and really pushed me to, like, hey, you need to get uncomfortable. You're wasting your own potential by not going after this job, by not coming back into the field. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:10]: That is such a word. Everything you want is on the other side of fear. Good nugget, Clarissa. Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:20:15]: Thanks. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:16]: So let's look at it in the other direction, too. What do you want to tell future Clarissa two years from now Clarissa or three years from now? Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:20:22]: I would love to tell her to just not stress, and I just say that very candidly because I'm going through a lot of health issues right now, and I know part of it is just all rooted in stress. And I would love to tell future Clarissa, like, hey, you made it through all this. Let's take care of ourselves now. And I think the most exciting thing that I would want to tell my future self is, like, you got everything you want because you worked hard for it, and don't ever let anyone undermine the work that you've put in to. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:53]: Get to where you are and then thinking about your kind of holistic perspective as well. Is there anything that you would definitely want to repeat in terms of identifying how to transition successfully? Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:21:04]: I think speaking about it is so important. I used to be so scared and so embarrassed to tell people, hey, I'm going to apply for this job. Or like, hey, I'm thinking about making the jump from this functional area to that functional area because I was so afraid of what people would think about me or think about, like, oh, I don't think you're making the right career choice. And I think if there's anyone that's going to know you best, it's yourself and your instinct and your gut. And I think as much as I say I've had good people that have supported me, a lot of it has also been my instinct. I knew I could do this work. I know that I'm good at this, and I think that's also carried me. So I think from a holistic approach and thinking about all these transitions, I think your instinct carries you through it. I think talking about it too to the people that you know would support you and keep it very candid and honest with you are the ones are the one thing, two things that I could say have helped me in the. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:03]: Last four or five years and also thinking about this whole process. Is there anything you wished you would have done differently? You mentioned talking about it, but anything else? Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:22:10]: I think what I wish I could have done differently, I wish COVID didn't happen. I graduated in 2019, so I had that fall semester in person and then 2020 to 2021, 2022, it's just a blur. And I just say that because I feel like it just took my prime years as a professional away. And so I've always been told that your first year to your fourth or fifth year is like your new professional years. And I felt the Pandemic really took my new professional years where I kind of only know things as remote and not really pre COVID. But I think the lessons that I learned through the Pandemic really helped. And going back to grit and resilience, if it wasn't for the Pandemic, it wouldn't have built all of these personality traits and these values for me. So it's kind of like good and bad. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:00]: Also just state for the record that grit and resilience traits, oftentimes for women of color, come out of a system that wasn't built for us, and we have to figure out how to navigate that system. So I think it's awesome that you found yourself being able to build those traits. But I also would encourage and challenge anyone listening to the show today who has authority over a system to really look at how that system is built for people and not built for people. Because that's really the driving. Force behind real inclusion and real progressive deib for your organizations and all of the values that we talk about a lot and sometimes we struggle to operationalize. Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:23:39]: I love that. That was great retweet. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:43]: I'm completely off of Twitter now, or X or whatever the heck that it's called. I had enough. I think my account I still own my username because I don't want anyone else to have my username, but haven't been active in a little while. Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:23:55]: Yeah, it's been tough with that whole change with X. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:58]: More transitions. Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:24:00]: Yes. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:00]: Any final advice you'd like to give our listeners on their own transitions or wisdom from yours? Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:24:05]: I think transitions can be such a beautiful thing. I think it's just how you look at it, because again, everything you want is on the other side of fear. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:13]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:20]: Welcome back to the NASPA World. Really excited to be able to talk to you again today. And there's a lot happening in NASPA. I know I say that every week, but it's true. So many opportunities to learn, to grow, to expand your horizon to the future that you have in front of you. And one of the things that is coming up in January january 24 to 27th in Atlanta, Georgia, is the 2024 NASPA Institute for Aspiring Vice Presidents for Student Affairs. We are currently seeking dedicated professionals to apply for the 2024 NASPA Institute for Aspiring Vice Presidents for Student Affairs. Make sure to block off a few minutes in your calendar as you look at the deadline that's coming up on October 15. This institute is a four day program for professionals considering or seeking to learn more about the Vice President for Student Affairs role. This application based program is an institute so unlike conferences where you may choose to participate or not in concurrent session, during this institute, all attendees will participate in the same cohort experience and are expected to engage fully in all aspects of the program. This is a powerful program that definitely prepares individuals to look at becoming a Vice President for Student Affairs. The ins, the outs, the positives, the negatives, everything in between, and you have a ton of great mentors that support you throughout the Institute and beyond. The institute faculty include claire Brody, Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs at Anna G. Mendez University jose Luis Riera, Vice President for Student Life at the University of Delaware pauline Dabrowski, Vice President for Student Affairs at Stonehill College. Sheila Higgs Burkhalter, Vice President for Student Affairs at Winthrop University brian Mitra, Vice President of Student Affairs and Enrollment Management at Queensboro Community College melissa Shivers, Senior Vice President for Student Life at the Ohio State University and Alvin Sturdavant, Vice Provost for Student Development at Seattle University. If you think you want to be a Vice President for Student Affairs in the future, I highly encourage you to consider this great opportunity. And just remember, the deadline for applying is October 15. Another great professional development opportunity that really falls into our last season of the podcast is the fifth European Conference for Student Affairs and Services. ASPA is partnering with Ayuka, which is. The European University College Association and Perodus College American Farm School as they all invite you to the fifth annual European Conference for Student Affairs and Services that's going to be held in Thessaloniki, Greece on November 9 through 11th. In a world where the availability, functionality and accessibility of technologies are growing exponentially and where new realities such as the metasphere appear, education providers need to reimagine their role in what is starting to be called the onlife world. Student affairs departments are well placed to support students in gaining invaluable experience, to get to know themselves better, and to grow and mature in this program. You can find out more about this program on the NASPO website. As you delve a little bit deeper, you're going to find that there are many different topics within this conference, including student affairs, staff preparation and professional development, career readiness and preparation for the future, mental health and well being and cultural skills and inclusive learning. The conference will definitely open your eyes to the broader world of student affairs outside of the United States and will open you to being able to consider perspectives that you may never have considered before. Highly encourage you to take a look at this conference and see if it's a right fit for you. Every week we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Because the association is as strong as its members and for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit, where do you want to give back? Each week. We're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in. That knowledge, community. I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:50]: Chris, always appreciative of your work with the NASPA World segment, keeping our members updated on what's going on in and around the association. Clarissa, we have reached our lightning round, so I have seven questions for you in 90 seconds. Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:30:04]: You ready to go oh, my God, yes. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:06]: I promise you already know the answers. Okay, question one if you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:30:15]: Probably the man by Taylor Swift. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:17]: Number two, when you were five years old, what did you want to be when you grew up? Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:30:20]: A pediatrician. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:21]: Number three, who's your most influential professional mentor? Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:30:24]: Her name is Dr. Sanja Daniels. She's the associate vice president for Campus Life at San Jose State University. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:30]: Number four. Your Essential Student Affairs. Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:30:32]: Read it's. The purple book from Anaspa. Asian Pacific Islanders. Knowledge, community understanding. I don't know the full title, but the Purple Book, that's what I call it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:43]: Number five, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:30:46]: This is gonna say so much about me, but Tiger King. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:50]: Number six, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:30:54]: It's a split between Call Her Daddy by Alex Cooper and the True Crime Podcast. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:59]: And finally, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or? Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:31:02]: Oh, that's a good question. I just want to shout out my partner, Joshua Cruz, for letting me use his setup. I just want to give a shout out to the team at San Jose State University and student involvement. And I just want to give a shout out to my family, my mom, my had, my sister for being super supportive of me being in the doctoral program and just for letting me be in student affairs. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:21]: And I know everyone can't see Clarissa's setup that borrowing from her partner, but it is kind of an epic, twitch streamer kind of situation. Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:31:28]: Yes. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:29]: Got a lot of anime posters and giant professional microphones, so I hope that you're enjoying her audio quality today. Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:31:37]: Yeah, apparently this is supposed to be, like, smooth and crispy, like a microphone quality. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:41]: Clarissa, if people would like to reach you after the show, how can they find you? Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:31:44]: I am on LinkedIn. Just look up Clarissa May. That's M-A-E Columbus. And then I'm on Twitter or X at Underscore Clarissa May. And then I'm on Instagram at two. Underscores Clarissa May. I think that's the only three social media platforms I use. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:02]: Thank you so very much for sharing your voice with us today. Clarissa Mae Calimbas [00:32:05]: Thank you. I had so much fun. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:08]: This has been an episode of Essay Voices from the Field, brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L. Craighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show. And please, like, rate and review us on Apple podcasts, spotify or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill L. Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to Duke Kunshan University and the University of Michigan, Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this episode of "Student Affairs Voices from the Field," Dr. Jill Creighton, the host, welcomes Dr. Chicora Martin as the season premiere guest. They discuss transitions in higher education and leadership within NASPA (National Association of Student Personnel Administrators). Dr. Martin shares her personal journey into student affairs, highlighting her circuitous path from aspiring to be a judge to finding her passion in student affairs. Dr. Martin praises the podcast for its role in bringing forward the student affairs profession and shares how her chance meeting with a graduate student reflects her commitment to mentorship. She emphasizes the importance of seizing opportunities, even if they seem serendipitous, and how her own journey into student affairs was influenced by unexpected connections and experiences. Dr. Creighton and Dr. Martin reminisce about their first meeting at the University of Oregon, highlighting the interconnectedness of the student affairs profession and the smallness of the community, which can be both a benefit and a challenge, especially for newcomers and those from underrepresented backgrounds. They delve into Dr. Martin's transition into her role as NASPA Board Chair, discussing the selection process and the responsibilities associated with it. Dr. Martin shares her approach to this role, focusing on community engagement and connecting with NASPA members to ensure that the organization remains member-centric. The conversation then shifts to Dr. Martin's experiences with transitioning between different types of institutions and geographic locations. She emphasizes the importance of remaining open to learning and adapting one's experiences to fit the new environment. Dr. Martin shares a valuable lesson about recognizing that her way of doing things is not the only way, citing an example from her time at Mills College. She acknowledges that leadership requires understanding and accommodating different individuals' tolerance for change and making decisions with grace and collaboration. The episode concludes with Dr. Martin's reflections on the importance of building trust within her team and being open to feedback and adjustments in leadership decisions. Overall, this episode highlights the significance of embracing transitions, seizing opportunities, and fostering inclusivity and trust in leadership roles within the student affairs profession and organizations like NASPA. Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues! Transcript Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season nine on transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your SA Voices from the Field. Host. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:24]: Welcome to SA. Voices thank you so much. Dr. Chicora Martin [00:00:27]: I'm excited to be here with you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:28]: We're so glad you agreed to be our season premiere of season nine, transitions in Higher Education. Think you're the perfect person to kick off our season because of your professional transitions, your institutional type transitions, and also your leadership transitions within NASPA. But as our season premiere person, that also means that we get to explore the direction of where we're going to go. And one of the things we will always keep consistent though, is we like to start our episodes with your come up. So how did you get to your current seat both at your institution and in NASPA? Dr. Chicora Martin [00:00:59]: Well, first of all, let me congratulate you on nine seasons of bringing forward our profession in a way that's really accessible to folks and interesting and lets us tell a little bit deeper story about what we're doing. So that's an amazing opportunity for you, for NASPA, and for Student affairs. So super excited to be a part of it. How I got here, I was just actually meeting with a grad student. So I have a general policy that if a grad student reaches out and wants to connect, I try to make that happen because I feel like that's an important part of the profession. So I actually had lunch with a graduate student last weekend who happens to be in the Atlanta area doing some work this year. And that was one of their questions, like, what was your student affairs journey? And I said, first, I said, I think I'm still on it. I'm not quite sure. Trying to figure out what I'm trying to do. But I went to college and really was as a first gen student, really with very little college knowledge. Got to my undergraduate because my mom's best friend's husband coached football there. That was part of my decision making factor in Student Affairs for thinking about the work we do around recruitment and trying to get students to come to our college. I'm sure all of the admissions professionals out there who hear this are going to cringe that. That was part of my college decision making journey. But alas, I got there and I was on a career trajectory to be into law and be a judge. That's what I wanted to do. That was my original career aspiration. So I got involved with the honor know, that seemed like a good extracurricular fit with being a judge. Right? And summer of my sophomore year, this person calls me in July. In the summer I'm working. They're like, hi, I'm your new dean of students at ECU. East Carolina is where I went my undergrad, and I'm going to be working with you next year. Really excited. I'm like, who calls you in the middle of the summer? I'm like, not even in the college frame, but alas. So that person was Dr. Karen Boyd, and she ended up being my dean for several years. Is actually a great friend of mine. At my wedding, we vacationed together even 30 years later almost. So it was because of her making me realize the opportunities available to me. I did want to go home for the summers back to my house in Virginia Beach, so I got connected with orientation so I could work. No real intention of it being a career. Hey, it was a job and a place to live and three meals. And I met the wonderful orientation director at Carolina, Beth Am. Pretty. And it really just went off from there, I think. I got a job in student affairs and got into law school the same week right when I was getting ready to graduate. My mom was a little surprised. You're going to do what? You're not going to go to law school? You're going to do this thing. I don't understand. But I did. I thought it was the right thing for me. I said then that I can always go back to law school. So yeah, so that's how I got into student affairs. It was sort of a circuitous serendipitous, I guess, is the better word for it, route. And I just kept taking advantage of opportunities and decided I wanted to go to grad school. So I had to wait a year, took as many advantages as I could where I was at ECU to do different jobs. I worked in admissions, I worked in the student union. Really cool opportunities. And I went to grad school so I could do this as a job. And my family, many of which have still not gone to college, are always like, how is school? School's still good? As if I'm still enrolled. I don't know. I don't know what they think I do, but it's really cute because they're always like student of life. Student. Exactly. I'm like school's still great. I think they think either just always in school or maybe I'm the principal, I don't know. But yeah, so that's why I got here. And I've just continued to have really great opportunities. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:20]: The reason you heard me go, oh, wow, is I know Karen as well. Clearly not as well as you do, but I grew up in the conduct world, so Karen has been quite a presence stalwart in the conduct world for so many years. Dr. Chicora Martin [00:04:30]: It's true. I say she's always been really committed to this work and is a great connector, so it doesn't surprise me. Right. She's a great connector. She's always introducing people to each other. And I think I also, thankfully have learned that a little bit from her. So I try to do the same thing with people that I work with or mentor, just connecting them to the great people in our profession, for our. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:48]: Listeners, Shakur and I on each other's journey. We met actually at the University of Oregon in 2000. Dr. Chicora Martin [00:04:55]: A long time. Sometime between somewhere. Yeah. Mid 2000, I think. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:02]: Student affairs always comes around on itself, and I think it's a really great example of how small the profession can be, good, bad or ugly. But Shakura actually interviewed me for a job at one point when I was a much younger professional. So we all stay connected regardless of how those things turn out. I didn't end up working with Shakura on a full time basis, but we're still definitely in the Nasca space. You know, like, we're all those of us who've been around the block a few times, the six degrees of separation gets tinier and tinier. Dr. Chicora Martin [00:05:29]: It's true. I tell that to new professionals all the time in our field, is we have really tons and tons of amazing opportunities, and it's still a really small profession. And to your point, that can be good and challenging, I think good, because sometimes that sense of connectedness also is how we take care of each other. We look out. But I also know if you're coming from the outside and or you have identities that are not historically represented in our work, it can feel like you can't get in. Like, it's sort of an inside outside club. So I think we nurture that, but we also recognize it can feel a little clubbish, and we have to work on making sure everyone feels like they'd be a part of that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:04]: Absolutely. And on our theme of transitions, you have now transitioned into the Nasca board chair role. You're in there a couple of months now, so I'm hoping you can talk to us a little bit about your come up in NASPA specifically and then also what that transition has been like from being, like, a general leader or a volunteer to suddenly sitting as the leader of the board. Dr. Chicora Martin [00:06:25]: Now, I appreciate that it's accidental leadership. If you heard, I giggle because when I remember talking to my partner when I was first approached about this opportunity and I said, it's a great thing. I mean, I won't get elected or anything. They probably won't even put me up. But it's a cool thing to be nominated or recognized, just to be to someone to reach out and say, hey, you're doing great things. We see you. So she laughs at me still that's, you know, you say that, and here you are doing you know, my role of work at NASA actually kind of parallels my work in student affairs in that I got my job. At the University of Oregon, and I was there in August, and Laura Blake Jones, who was the Dean of Students there at the time, said, hey, by the way, a bunch of us are on the Portland. It was a regional conference planning committee, and now you are yay. So welcome. I love being volatile. It was amazing. It was a very important job. I was in charge of parking. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:22]: Oh, that was on a college campus. Do not underestimate the importance of parking. Dr. Chicora Martin [00:07:26]: I know it's true. I joke about it, and people are like, well, but if they can't park, no one can come. I was like, It's true. And parking in downtown Portland is not like most major cities. It's really challenging. But it's interesting though. I decided, like, okay, one thing, I was going to take that beyond and sort of my personality too. I was like, oh, what else can I do? So I had like, bus routes, and I got some free bus passes as giveaways. I just went and did all kinds of transportation things. So parking and transportation is important and fun, and I made the best of it. But I also said, hey, I know there's an LGBT knowledge community. I'm connected at that time. I was just I call it like a listserve member at the time, right? I got the emails and I said, I'd like to also provide some resources around LGBT things to do at the conference. And folks were really excited. So I took on that piece as well and just kind of ran with it. And it was a great opportunity. I met wonderful people in NASPA. It was really my first big involvement. And I think for the early part of my career, I was involved in both NASPA and ACPA fairly equally. ACPA was much bigger at my graduate institution, and I stayed connected to both. I think each organization has really valuable pieces for professionals and having each organization and lots of other ones, and I'll talk a little bit about that later, but that really benefit your professional development. So it's cool. Got connected to cool people and just stayed involved. Really got involved in the LGBT knowledge community. And that's what it was called at the time, right? And worked with that group and some wonderful leaders around some of the cool changes that we were working on as far as the organization being more inclusive, being more welcoming, and stayed connected there as well as the standing committee for ACPA. So it was really cool in working, and then as many of us sometimes do, I kept volunteering with NASPA, reviewing programs. That was one of the things I've constantly done. People are like, how do I get involved with something right away? I'm like, offer to review program proposals. It's one of the easiest ways, but really meaningful ways. You really help sculpt the professional development curriculum of our organization. So I've done that for years and generally was just open, especially when NASPA was close to us. So if it was close to me in an area as a relatively I'm not going to use the word poor that I don't think that's appropriate. As a relatively lower income employee at the time, I really couldn't travel nationally, so it was really taking advantage of whenever NASPA came by. The Bay Area first story. Get another bay in heights. So I was really excited in looking at my trajectory as a mid level professional and how you get to become into sort of a vice presidency. It's not a very clear process. It's somewhat opaque sometimes. How do you get the skills and experience? So I think my first really big opportunity to engage was when the faculty director of Manicure, which is a wonderful institute to help support women to get into VP positions, I would say argue sometimes to decide they don't want to be a vice president, which is a completely appropriate reason to also do it. Mamta Akapati reached out to me, and Mamta and I have known each other for a long time, more from afar. She's an amazing leader, really, I think sets a lot of opportunity in our community to talk about inclusive leadership in a particular way. And I've always really appreciated her work in that area and said, hey, you want to get involved with this thing, Manicure? I had never been, and not because I didn't think it was important, but because of my gender identity. I wasn't exactly sure if it was that space for me. I want to honor and respect spaces that are set for people who particularly have marginalized identities to sort of honor that. I think it's important. I think we can have lots of inclusive spaces, but I think those are vital too. And she moms and I said, let's talk. So we talked, and she really shared with me that this was about folks who are marginalized because of their gender, having a path to a VP position. And that really speaks to me because I would say that one of the reasons that I'm at a historically women's college is because we talk about gender all the time. All the time. You have to. It's what you do. So being able to really do that in a way through the NASPA leadership opportunities was exciting, and I think we had an amazing faculty. It was a really profound experience for me as a faculty member, and I had the honor. So it's every two years, the next two years, usually a faculty member is asked to be the faculty director. And so in 2020, I was able to be the faculty director. And again, just those leaders that I'm connected to the faculty, I have a text chat with all of them. To this day that we chat with each other, and some of the participants I'm still connected to reach out, and we have conversations about their careers, what they're doing, how things are going. It's really exciting. And so that was really my first national opportunity. Besides always being involved with the national conferences volunteering and doing all the things I could. I even remember volunteering at TPE for those of us who were older and remember volunteering at TPE. And mine was the mailboxes. So people asked me of one of my most memorable NASPA experiences is working at the mailboxes, at the placement exchange with folks, applying for jobs and trying to be really so my journey with NASPA was just about saying people, you know, opportunities with different groups and just saying, yeah, I'll try that, I'll help out. I will do whatever that thing is. And when I was approached to be the board chair, I really said, if the NASPA membership feels I can be of service, then I'm there. If they feel my leadership, what I bring, how I approach the work and our profession, then I would be honored to serve in that way. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:46]: So let's talk about that process a little bit, because I think that too can be a bit opaque. How does one be considered to become the NASPA board chair, and what does that feel like as the person who just went through it and the transition from prospective candidate to candidate to sure. Dr. Chicora Martin [00:13:01]: There'S actually it's a pretty thoughtful process. It kind of goes back to what I said earlier about ensuring that we have a process that's clear to our membership, but it feels like there's an opportunity to engage with it at a variety of levels. So NASPA will reach out to folks around being the board chair. You can throw your own name out there and say, hey, I'm interested. They also solicit from NASPA leaders, ideas, folks who might be really interested. And the first part of that conversation is looking at, do we have a good slate of folks to talk with? Right? Are we representing different groups, different regions? That's a huge part, right? We represent a very diverse constituency, have our regions. Of course, I throw that all in the loop as I move across country. But we'll talk about our regions represented, different backgrounds, different functional areas. And then the past chair part of their responsibility is actually to run this process. So you serve three years, incoming chair, current chair, and past chair. So the past chair then reaches out to folks and has a conversation. I remember my conversation with Angela Batista, and it was really, really important because Angela named what would be expected. And I think that's important to really have a thoughtful conversation with yourself, to the demands of them, to have a conversation with your family, your boss, the people who work with you. Because I would say specifically the board chair year, you're going to ask those folks in your sphere of the world to sort of take on more and to support you. So I think in that process, then folks really name, okay, yeah, I'm interested, or it's not my time. And I would say a lot of folks will say that I am very interested, but it's not my time to do that. And I think that allows us to recognize that this is a volunteer position, that all of us have other jobs. You're required to be in a student affairs role while you're in the board chair position. So it is really on top of everything else. And from that, the slate of candidates, those two candidates that rise to the top through this committee selection process, through the interviews, go to the membership, and the members get to vote between those two folks. We do a great sort of webinar kind of conversation. We have to do a video. That two minute video. I feel like it took me 20 hours to make. It is so hard to get everything you want to say in two minutes. That was, I think, the hardest part of it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:09]: And in one take. That is rough. Dr. Chicora Martin [00:15:11]: I know. It was so arduous. My staff will tell you here, I hate doing videos, especially when they're scripted. I don't like conversational. I love having a conversation. But those sort of scripted are when you really and you have to in two minutes, you have to write everything down, because if you don't, at least I I will name for myself. I'll wander off talking about whatever you want to talk about, but that was the hardest part. And then it goes out to the members, and they vote and make a decision about who can lead. And I would know. I ran against Eddie Martinez. He is an amazing human, and frankly, the NASPA would have been in a great hands no matter who they elected. So, thankfully, Eddie is now on the foundation board. I'm glad we've kept him close. He's a wonderful person, and I know he'll really serve that foundation board well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:56]: And it's such a delightful thing to think about. Your colleagues nominating you for this leadership role, but also really important to know that there's an interview process that you have to really think about why you want to be in this position and what does it mean to you. And the interesting thing about association leadership, which is much different than campus based leadership, is that you are actually more of a steward of the association for the period of time you're in the seat, rather than kind of operationally leading like you would in a division of student affairs. So let's talk a little bit about the transition of hat that you have to wear between your day job and your board chair job. Dr. Chicora Martin [00:16:29]: Yeah, that's a great analogy. That stewardship I describe it as I'm a threat. And one end of my thread is connected to Danita, right. She's already gone through and served our organization and still does this past year. And the other end of my thread is connected to Anna Gonzalez, who will come in next year. And I sort of hold this for a year, but I need to figure out how do I add texture and color to that. That's unique to me and my leadership that really helps serve the organization overall, because that's the most important thing. And I think my leadership style and what I bring to that. But you're right, there's a whole I use the word gaggle, very fondly gaggle of amazing staff at NASPA who do exceptional work to make this manageable for someone like me. I mean, quite frankly, if it wasn't for them, this would not be possible. They are leaders in higher education. Almost all of them have worked in higher education or in something really closely related. Many have. So they understand the flow. And I always joke we have a pretty routine bruton and I schedule throughout the year, but we don't meet in August in the same way. And people are like, oh, we're not meeting in August. I'm like because it's August. And Beth understands what August looks like for most of us. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:35]: Unless you're on quarters. Dr. Chicora Martin [00:17:36]: I know. I bet our term schools are like, in September. I know, but we do try. I think it's important. So the NASPA staff are great, and they're know I think every board chair comes in with a sort of a vision of how do I support the organization? And a big part of mine is sort of being with folks in community. So I've made it a real effort throughout the past summer to be able to go to as many regional conferences, specialties conferences, like our Student Success Conference. I'm looking forward to our Strategies conference in January, our racial equity conference in December. So being there and having conversations, I had wonderful visits with region Two and Three at their regional conferences in June. So I think that's an important part of what I think I'm bringing to that sort of stewardship of the board chair is helping our membership understand that, yes, there's this amazing group of staff, but the responsibility and opportunity of NASPA is with us. It is our organization. And you have a board of volunteers who represent all of the regions, all of the divisions, all the wonderful areas that are so important to us. And they are working really hard to make sure NASPA is your organization. And we want you to engage and participate by being in volunteer roles, reading whatever way you can participate. So that really, I think, is my sort of opportunity to steward the relationship our membership has with not. I would say in some ways, it's not unlike being a vice president in that I spend a lot of time ensuring that everyone understands what the Division of Student Affairs does, the important work and contributions we make to the learning and education for students. But thankfully, in my day job, I do a lot of problem solving. And I would say that generally, the Nasca staff ends up being a great know. Kevin and I meet monthly to do that, and by the time we hear about. They have like six solutions. They're like, here are the six solutions the board can choose. Pick one. So I wish I had that group of people all the time. Although I would say, here my current role. My staff also do a pretty good job of that. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:37]: So when you think about the transitions of institution types, you've also spent time at large publics. You're now at a small private. You changed and transitioned between the east and the West Coast, or really the West Coast to the south. Tell us about those transitions and what you've learned and what made them successful, or I guess also what made them really scary. Dr. Chicora Martin [00:19:55]: Does that make me like a sort of student affairs unicorn? When I was talking to someone, they were like, you went from a big public to a small private, from the West Coast to the East Coast. Right. I think it just shows you what we talked about earlier, that our profession, while large, is also small in some ways. There's some consistent things that we think also. For me, transitions are about remaining really open to bringing your experience, but recognizing every position you come into as an opportunity to learn, as opposed to assuming you know all the answers. So I think that's always been a very successful sort of transitions approach for me. I went from a school of 25,000 to a school with less than 2500 and being able open to say, yeah, I've got some great ideas, but I need to also see how I could apply them here. I'll use a funny example. So when I went from Oregon to Mills College, when I got there, they had all these posters and flyers everywhere, and they were all like handwritten and were and I said, well, why don't we create a way so they can create more digital posters or we can get a tool people can use. And I'm thinking this in my head because my policy is when I come to a new position, I'm just sort of soaking it in. And then it only took me about a month to realize that was just an important part of that way that campus communicated that sort of homemade and or high touch approach. It wasn't just that they put these banners up, but the fact that the organization who did them all got together and made them together and then put them up, that was part of the culture of gathering for them sense of belonging. And had I just come in and said, oh, we have these great tools at this big school and we're going to do this thing, I wouldn't have seen or felt that. So instead, I bought them a stencil machine. So little cutout stencils for those of you who have those on your campus, you know, little machine, you hope nobody takes their finger off it. Makes me a little nervous. But alas, then we had little classes. You had to do a little class before you could use the stencil machine. And then I bought, like, every color butcher paper on that cool wheelie thing known to student affairs so that students could just make better posters. They could be clear, you could read them better, they could do them more quickly. They had the right supplies, and we had a little big table in a space where they could do it. So I think that's an example of sort of recognizing that in transitions, we bring a lot of knowledge and experience, but to do it well, we have to be able to adapt it to the community we're a part of. We have to just recognize. And I think this is also one of the things I take away from traveling abroad a lot. You and I have talked about this. We both have this love of travel, and I traveled very young. My father imported spices for a living. That was his job. And so I had the opportunity to be in countries in the Middle East and in Europe pretty young. And I took from that also, like, oh, my way of doing things is just a way of doing things. It is not the way of doing things. And I think that has helped me in every transition to recognize I have great experience, but I need to figure out how to apply that to the benefit of that campus or that volunteer role to make it better and to kind of contain be nimble and also learn stuff. I mean, that's the coolest part. I'm always learning things from those around me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:56]: Is there a time that you made a mistake in a transition that you've learned from and applied towards future transition. Dr. Chicora Martin [00:23:02]: Mistake, opportunity for learning? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:04]: I don't know. Dr. Chicora Martin [00:23:05]: I'm kind of an optimist. No, I would describe as mistakes. You do things in a silo that you are unwilling to own. Like, that's sort of a mistake. For me, everything else is an area where you did probably the best with the knowledge you had, but you have to own when it's just it's not the right thing or it didn't work or you weren't as inclusive. And sure, certainly I think sometimes I get ahead of myself. I'm about recognizing that not everybody has a different tolerance for change and a good leader number one job is to recognize that actually not just to do the change, but to actually recognize folks tolerance for change. I was at Mills College when Mills College merged with Northeastern. Talk about learning. I never thought I would do that in my higher education experience. And I think there were certainly times where it was challenging. Right. It's challenging for an organization to change that significantly. And I learned a lot from trying to apply kind of traditional roles of sort of change management in a way that we've never done before. Right. But it's also having some grace with myself and with others. Around me. So I'd say that's a takeaway. Even when I mess up, which I think the first thing is just I actually not that long ago said to Sioux staff who brought forward, hey, we don't like the way this was going. This is how it's impacting us. First thing is I said thank you for trusting me to bring this to me. That can be scary. I'm your boss. Second, I'm sorry, I hear what you're saying. I wasn't coming from that perspective, we need to do some things, but I see how doing it that way is problematic. So let's get together in the end. I should have gotten together first, but sometimes we get moving so quickly that we don't recognize everyone who needs to be there. And that that change is really important. And as I said to my folks that work with me, hopefully we can build a layer of trust that if I do have to do that, you can trust me enough to know that it's not the typical way I want to make change, but the situation required it. So doing that, naming that, and then what I think that big opportunity always takes is that change is never easy. It sometimes feels a little easy when you're in positions of power and positions of decision making. And information really is just about everything. How we control information, how decisions are made, who gets to make decisions. I think that's the key to not making mistakes and to just learning from those opportunities. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:25]: It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:31]: Welcome back to the NASPA World. Really excited to be able to talk to you again today in a brand new season. And there is a lot going on in NASPA. Coming up in only a few days on September 20 at 02:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, is a webinar that is available for members and nonmembers alike called Career Readiness. A shared responsibility between student affairs and academic affairs. At research focused institutions, career outcomes have focused on the first destination, corporate hiring and graduate school enrollment. Today, the measures of student success are more broad than a first destination. Career readiness is now an accepted student success outcome. How do research intensive institutions frame this? Explicitly as tied to institutional learning objectives and a shared responsibility of academic and student affairs? In this webinar, three institutions Stony Brook University, SUNY, the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Minnesota, and the University of Texas at Austin will share their models and approaches. You can still register, so go to the NASPA website to find out more. There's another new volume of the Journal of College and Character that is currently out. All NASPA members do have access to this journal. Among all of the other journals of the association in this issue, there are a number of great articles, peer reviewed articles, as well as opinions and perspectives that range from topics involving career development to university chaplaincy to even considering antihazing messaging. It's a powerful journal that I highly encourage you to check out. It is a part of your membership, and you can take advantage of reading through the different articles from many different authors and practitioners here in the field. Know you get a lot of emails from knowledge communities and other aspects of NASPA, but it's important for you to check those emails, read through them, because there are specific dates and deadlines and things that you need to keep in mind in regard to your membership, in regard to how you can recognize people on your own campus or programs on your own campus. And I don't want you to miss out on these opportunities. One such opportunity is the annual awards process that happens every fall, and the deadline for submitting programs and people for different awards that are hosted by knowledge communities within NASPA or NASPA in general, typically have a deadline of Friday, October 6, 2023. So I want to encourage you to go to the NASPA Awards portal on the NASPA website, and you can go into the NASPA website, go to awards, and find out more. But in there, you can go in, you can look at Knowledge Community Awards, division Awards, dissertation of the Year Awards. There's lots of different awards that are out there and different deadlines, and all the deadlines that are out there as well. Most are October 6. But the Dissertation of the Year award is Saturday, September 30. So I don't want you to miss out on taking advantage of submitting for these awards, submitting others for these awards, because it is a great opportunity to be able to recognize the work that is being done, the people, the programs at your own institutions, and being able to have them potentially get recognized at the national Conference. So, again, the deadline is October 6. I really highly encourage you to at least go check out the portal itself. To make it simple, I know I said you could go to the NASPA website to access this, and you can, but I'm going to make it even simpler. I created a short link for you to follow to be able to check out all the awards, and it's just bitbit lynaspa, 20 fourawards, all one word. So again, bit Lee NASPA 20 fourawards. Every week we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Because the association is as strong as its members and for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself. Where do you fit? Where do you want to give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:21]: Chris, thanks so much for kicking us off with season nine's very first NASPA World segment. As always, we are so grateful for you putting together this list. And if you're new to the show, we want to remind you that our mission here is to provide free and accessible professional development for you, our student affairs professionals, especially as we know, as our travel budgets are seemingly restricted more and more every year. So we thank you for joining us and we're glad that you're here. And Shakura, we have reached our lightning round time. I've got seven questions for you in about 90 seconds. You ready? Dr. Chicora Martin [00:31:51]: Okay, I'm ready. Let's do it. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:53]: All right, question number one if you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Dr. Chicora Martin [00:31:58]: Oh, I have two choices if it's a chill conference. The rainbow connection by Kermit the Frog. If we're going a little more fly it's. I was here by Beyonce. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:06]: Number two, when you were five years old, what did you want to be. Dr. Chicora Martin [00:32:09]: When you grew think? I'm not sure I wanted to be a judge quite yet. I definitely want to be underwater, so I would say maybe I want to live underwater or be a marine biologist. One of the two. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:19]: Number three, who's your most influential professional mentor? Dr. Chicora Martin [00:32:22]: Oh, Dr. Karen Boyd. I think, like I said, is the reason I got here. And I would say just about every person I've worked for and with is a mentor to me. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:31]: Number four, your essential student affairs read. Dr. Chicora Martin [00:32:34]: Reading the books that we learn from every one of them has a student affairs message. My current one is Braiding Sweetgrass, which is a great context on science and indigenous folks. So that's the one that's going to inform me today. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:45]: Number five, the best TV show you binged during the Pandemic. Dr. Chicora Martin [00:32:48]: All right. The mass singer. That was it. I wouldn't say it's the best, but it certainly helped me get through the pandemic. And the other one was Bridgerton, so we could talk about that. That was a great piece. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:58]: Number six, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Dr. Chicora Martin [00:33:02]: This is amazing. I don't listen to a ton of podcasts, but my wife does and she tells me all about them. So The Hidden Brain has been a really recent one that she's been listening. I've been listening through her. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:12]: And finally, number seven. Any shout outs you'd like to give? Personal or professional? Dr. Chicora Martin [00:33:16]: Thank you for that. I have one for you for taking the time to do this to my great wife and all of our kids who are attached to us. We have about seven and some grandkids for putting up with us and to all the student affairs professionals who are new to the field and finding your path and journey. There's a place here for you and we're excited to have you with us. And for the folks who've been here a while, leading is challenging, so we're here to support you as well. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:35]: You made it, yay. Really appreciate you taking time out of your very busy schedule and balancing the time zones that we're currently in. Currently, Shakur and I are recording 12 hours opposite, so very early in the morning for them and very late at night for me. So we're making it work and then we're going to do this for the rest of the season. But this is part of my joy as a student affairs professional, getting to have depth of story with the amazing humans who make NASPA happen and who make our profession work and who are committed to positive change in our profession. So I'm grateful for you and your leadership and looking forward to seeing what the next semester and a half bring in your stewardship of the organization. I think it'll be over before you blink. Dr. Chicora Martin [00:34:14]: Oh, it will. Thank you for hosting this and for the opportunity for the world to be able to have, like you said, accessible professional development at their fingertips. One of the most important things we do. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:24]: And finally, Shakura, if anyone would like to connect with you after the show airs, how can they find you? Dr. Chicora Martin [00:34:28]: Sure easiest is LinkedIn. And then if you Google Shakura Martin, you will see my position and the NASPA website. So check those out and then message me on LinkedIn if you have questions. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:37]: Thank you so much for sharing your voice with us. Dr. Chicora Martin [00:34:39]: Thank you. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:41]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field, brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at [email protected] or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L. Craighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show. And please like, rate and review us on apple podcasts spotify or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill L. Creighton. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to Duke Kunshan University and the University of Michigan, Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

We are very excited to be preparing for Season 9 of SA Voices from the Field. This season we will be looking at things that we do something we do many times in our careers, transitions. Take a listen while Jill Creighton and Chris Lewis talk abmany times in ourout the new season. Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!   Transcript Jill Creighton: Welcome to Student Affairs voices from the field. The podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 9 on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Doctor Jill Creighton. Sheherhers, your SA voices from the field host. Happy August, Chris. Christopher Lewis: It is great to be back and really excited about this new season and new school year. and just new in general. Jill Creighton: You've got a lot of major things happening in your life right now about to sun. Well, I'll I'll let you talk about it. Christopher Lewis: that we do. And not only with work, but personally, I'm sending my oldest to college. So she is a freshman the university of North Carolina Chapel Hill. She's there. She started, and she is living her best life. So we are stepping back and watching from a distance and doing the whole parent thing. And I'm watching from the pilons and watching to see how student affairs works at other institutions. Jill Creighton: It's such a fascinating thing to going from the person who's behind the scenes to the person who's experiencing the thing that we all try to make sure it works. And that's a huge transition for you. I also know that I've got a huge transition on my campus this fall Over the summer here at DKU, we opened 22 new buildings. And I know that is such a wild concept for pretty much anyone in American Higher Ed. But because my institution is only a decade old, we're still building infrastructure. So our phase 2 campus just opened out of 22 of those facilities. 11 of them are under student affairs. And I've got a new sports complex opening, our student union building, which is called our community center. Just came online. And I also have 8 undergraduate residence halls and 1 graduate student residence hall. And, you know, I've opened new buildings in my career before. but I've literally never opened 11 at once. So big transitions for both of us, which got us really thinking, what do we wanna focus on this season? So, Chris, do you wanna make the big announcement? Christopher Lewis: Really excited because this season, we're going to be talking about transitions gonna be talking about transitions in our personal life, but we're also gonna be talking about transitions in student affairs to get some amazing guests throughout the entire season. they're gonna be talking about transitions that they've gone through in their careers and the things that worked, the things that didn't work, or might not have worked, and we'll definitely be learning from all of them along the way and pass that learning on to you. Jill Creighton: And we want to really take your guest suggestions this season as well. We're always open to them. But if you know someone who's making a transition in their career, whether it be from undergraduate to graduate student pursuing a master's in higher ed or a graduate student to 1st full time position or from a new professional to mid level professional, especially if you're going from never supervising full time professionals before to leading and supervising full time professionals. We're also very excited to be experiencing along with them at the transition to NASA board chair for Doctor Shikora Martin. And then I'll also give a teaser that one of our long time NASA members and pillar of the profession, Doctor. Lori S White, will be coming on to talk about transition from VPSA to a university president, which is a very, very big transition. So all of these folks are going to be sharing their stories and We really do hope to hear from you on other folks who we should be featuring. Christopher Lewis: One of the things that I would really throw out there, and they said this at the beginning is that if you know of somebody or if you have had a transition that wasn't the best transition and it wasn't a positive experience, we'd like to talk to you too. because we don't want any of these episodes to come across as being that all transitions are great because they're not. And so many times where you might make a choice you may step into something and it doesn't work out, but you learn from it and the learning that you had from that experience or others have had from their experiences could help others to not make the same mistake and to be able to learn and grow from the steps that you were in or that others were in. Jill Creighton: The other type of transition that we'd love to hear from you on is if you're experiencing leadership transition, maybe you yourself are sitting in the same seat, but perhaps the people above you are changing. I know that's happening on my campus. We're getting a brand new chancellor as well as a brand new executive vice chancellor, which in the structure that I operate in, is effectively the COO of the campus. And so having kind of the top two roles that my campus changing at the same time is a major transition. So while my role is staying stable, I don't know what the priorities of the new leadership will be, and I think that's always an thing placed to navigate. And so wherever you are in your organizational structure, if that's happening for you, you would also be a great guest. Christopher Lewis: Oh, Jill, I'm just really excited I'm excited to not only be a part of this season, but to learn about from all of the guests because I know there's going to be so much that they're going to share, not only with us, but it's great to be behind the scenes. And I know that you that are listening are going to learn so much from the season as well. And we just love having you listen every week. Jill Creighton: So thank you for continuing to come back. We will be releasing our first episode sometime in early to mid-September still on that Thursday drop. So for those of you who are commute-based listeners, and you can look forward to like I said, early to mid-September, and we look forward to, bring you all the content. So see you very soon. Jill Creighton [00:05:32]: This has been an episode of essay voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners, we are so grateful that you continue to listen me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L Creighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment tell a colleague about the show, and please like Bait and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals buy the show and helps us after Chris Lewis. Guests coordination by Lu Yongru, special thanks to Duke Kunshan University and the University of Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

This week on  SA Voices From the Field, we interviewed Gian Luca Giovannucci, President of the European University College Association.  Gian Luca is a lawyer registered with the Italian bar association. He has been on the board of directors of Collegio Universitario Internazionale di Roma (CUIR) since 1992, advocating for the integration of life skills in the academic curricula and working for national recognition of University Colleges of Merit (Collegi di Merito) to foster academic excellence in Italy.  Recognizing the added value of internationalization in higher education, Gian Luca promoted the creation of the European University College Association (EucA) in 2006, and he has been its president ever since. During his tenure with EucA, Gian Luca has pursued the association’s growth, and official recognition by European Union institutions of University Colleges’ role in providing a holistic education for students that strengthens their development and employability. While at EucA, he has overseen the creation and management of European research projects, namely Modernising Higher Education through Soft Skills Accreditation (MODES). He is a keen supporter of NASPA-Student Affairs Administrators in Higher Education, with which he has collaborated since 2012 in the organization of International Events. From the beginning, Gian Luca has enthusiastically participated in IASAS's creation. He has participated from the first meeting in 2010 in Venice, with IASAS President Emeritus Roger Ludeman, to his current role as Treasurer. In 2012, he attended the first IASAS Global Summit in Washington D.C., USA. He organized the second in Rome, Italy in 2014, continuing the collaboration until the Global Summit in Cork, Ireland in 2022. Gian Luca is a co-author of the volume "Supporting Students globally in the Higher Education", published in 2016 by IASAS and NASPA. When not engaging with EucA projects and students in Brussels, Rome or other European cities, Gian Luca is an enthusiastic promoter of “made in Italy” products: be it Italian fashion, cuisine or wines, he persuasively argues-as any lawyer does-the advantages of buying Italian goods.  Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!

This week on SA Voices From the Field, we interviewed Dr. Niamh Nestor, Student Adviser at the Veterinary Sciences Centre, University College Dublin.  Niamh’s work is focused on student support, primarily on mental health and well-being among veterinary medicine and veterinary nursing students. Niamh’s background is in sociolinguistics, migration, and integration, and her doctoral research focused on Polish children and teenagers who had migrated to Ireland since Poland joined the European Union in 2004. At UCD, Niamh’s work is focused on student support, primarily on mental health and well-being among veterinary medicine and veterinary nursing students.  She supports the rollout of the HEA National Student Mental Health and Suicide Prevention Framework at UCD. Niamh is an active member of the community life of the university. She runs UCD Purl Jam, the university’s craft/creative group. She co-founded the Veterinary Community Garden on campus. She is also an active member of the UCD Community Choir. Niamh is involved in implementing equality, diversity, and inclusion initiatives in her School and the wider UCD community. She co-chairs the UCD LGBTQI+ EDI committee and the UCD LGBTQI+ Staff Network. She is an active member of the Athena SWAN Committee in her school. She joined this committee because she is deeply committed to challenging injustice, intolerance, and bigotry and to achieving equality, diversity, and inclusion for all. She believes in active allyship and is passionate about fighting against complacency. Rights that have been hard won can be easily lost, and every small thing we do to protect those rights matters. EDI work on higher-level campuses is vital in this regard, and Niamh is particularly interested in empowering and supporting students to continue the fight for equality into the future. Outside of work, Niamh loves to work in her garden. She has recently joined a dance class and taken up carpentry. She volunteers for Dublin Lesbian Line, teaches piano, and likes to travel.  Niamh Nestor is on LinkedIn, and also people can get me by email: [email protected] Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!

This week on SA Voices From the Field, we interviewed David Pe, Vice Chancellor for Student Affairs at NYU Shanghai.  In his role, David Pe oversees the student life experience for NYU Shanghai’s diverse student community and ensures that all students are provided the support and resources needed to thrive during their studies at this university. His areas of oversight include Residential Life, New Student Programs, Student Belonging, Athletics & Fitness, Student Health, Career Development, Student Involvement, and Inbound/Outbound Mobility. David joined NYU Shanghai in 2012 as an inaugural member of the university’s administrative team, helping to build NYU Shanghai from the ground up. He has also served in various capacities within student life at the NYU campus in New York.  David holds a Bachelor’s Degree in Chinese Literature from the University of California, Los Angeles, a Master’s Degree in Higher Education Administration from New York University, and a Doctor of Education in Organizational Change and Leadership from the University of Southern California. His research interests include intercultural communication and the interactions between design and learning. Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!