At a recent event with about 300 attendees, today's guest polled the audience and asked how they felt about their ABM performance. 98.5% said they weren't satisfied. If you've ever built an ABM program, this statistic may not surprise you. My observation is that there are few motions where the hype and the reality are so far apart. Why is that? What are people getting wrong about ABM? And how do you make it work? Andrei Zinkevich provides some very concrete and detailed answers to these questions in today's episode. You'll learn why ABM is more than the typical "display ad + email" recipe that many companies use, why true ABM really doesn't scale in a conventional sense, why you don't need expensive software, and why the most important personalization data comes from the company's own buyers. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Andrei Zinkevich is co-founder at Fullfunnel.io, an agency that transforms B2B tech and service-based companies from siloed sales and marketing to full-funnel account-based marketing and demand generation. He's also co-host of the Full-Funnel B2B Marketing Podcast. https://www.linkedin.com/in/azinkevich/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:43] - Core mistakes of most ABM motions[13:47] - The pillars of ABM[29:09] - Creating awareness within target accounts[36:11] - Moving from awareness to sales discussionsThanks to Our SponsorBig thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. We all know running outbound is a huge pain—you need to manage a dozen different tools and data sources and it takes ton of manual work to keep it all going. UserGems solves that with one platform to capture signals and automate next steps with workflows and AI.You get a library of the most impactful signals in one place, automated playbooks to make sure your team executes consistently, and Gem AI to create personalized messaging for each prospect. So stop wasting time and start targeting your most promising buyers with less headcount. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners. Try UserGems Resource LinksABM and Demand Gen Consulting & Training | FullFunnel.io Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

This week we sit down with Mallory Lee, a seasoned RevOps leader whose career spans transformative roles at Pardot, Terminus, and more. Together, we tackle the realities of RevOps today, from debunking the myth that RevOps is the buyer for tech tools to navigating the challenges of unified operations.Mallory reflects on her time leading teams through the rise of ABM platforms, highlighting lessons learned about hype, strategy, and staying grounded in reality. She also shares her candid perspective on the role of RevOps as the backbone of a company’s strategy. We explore how RevOps can bring alignment across go-to-market teams, why getting the ICP right is a never-ending challenge, and how tech platforms like marketing automation must evolve to keep up with modern demands.Whether you’re a RevOps practitioner, a SaaS vendor, or just someone who loves geeking out over strategy, this episode is packed with unvarnished truths and actionable insights.Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Mallory Lee is an experienced Revenue Operations professional with 15 years of experience collaborating across the GTM Org and C-Suite to scale B2B SaaS revenue. She's held marketing and RevOps leadership positions at companies like Terminus and Nylas, is a product advisor for RevTech companies, and co-founder of the RevTech Review. https://www.linkedin.com/in/mallorylee/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[00:57] - Favourite RevOps career path[01:34] - Why you shouldn’t build software for RevOps[05:26] - Iterating on your go-to-market message[07:50] - Shortcomings of ABM tools[16:21] - Signal-based selling and the role of RevOps[25:52] - Marketing automation landscape[33:58] - Unified RevOps[46:09] - Product consulting[48:41] - RevTech ReviewThanks to Our SponsorMarketers: it's planning season. Time to live in your office with the world's biggest spreadsheet and hope that finance doesn't slash your budget. Planning is tough, but at least you can put your best foot forward with a structured framework that covers all the bases. Our friends at Uptempo have just launched the Blueprint for Marketing Planning. It's a totally free and comprehensive guide for enterprise marketing teams. You'll get a seven-step planning process that integrates top-down strategy with bottom-up execution and gives you a crystal clear picture of how you'll hit your number. Get your free copy now: Uptempo Planning Guide Resource LinksThe RevTech Review Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

One of the most interesting projects I worked on recently was a rebuild of our ABM / outbound / buying signal tech stack at my day job. I had bought one of the big legacy ABM platforms a few years ago but had never really seen the value we were hoping for, at least not enough to justify the cost. And meanwhile, there’s been this explosion of new vendors in the outbound space—tracking signals, aggregating signals, powering sales workflows, enrichment, AI SDR assistants, and the list goes on. I did a really deep evaluation to understand the landscape, and just as I wrapped that up, I sat down with Janis and Philipp who host the RevOps Lab podcast by Weflow.We had a great discussion and really went into the details on this topic. If you’re thinking about changing up your ABM tech or just want to get oriented on what’s going on here, this is a great episode for you. Hope you enjoy it, and check out more episodes from RevOps Lab here: https://www.getweflow.com/revops-lab--------Justin Norris, Senior Director of Marketing Ops at 360 Learning and host of the RevOps FM podcast, joins us to dive into outbound strategies and the evolving role of AI in sales. Justin shares his approach to outbound, focusing on experimentation, signals, and leveraging technology to make outbound motions more effective. He also discusses the importance of flexibility in trying new outbound approaches and creating a system where teams can experiment and learn what works best.We cover:The shift from traditional outbound methods to AI-driven strategiesHow signals play a critical role in outbound successThe importance of flexibility and experimentation in outboundUsing tools like MadKudu to streamline outbound workflowsAI’s role in the future of outbound and sales engagementChapters:[00:00] Introduction[01:17] Justin’s Background and Journey in RevOps[03:59] Outbound in the Modern Sales Environment[07:31] Signals and AI in Outbound Strategy[14:39] Building Flexibility into Outbound Motions[19:06] The Future of AI and Sales Engagement[24:00] Experimentation and Learning in Outbound[35:30] Final Thoughts and Advice--------Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak Thanks to Our SponsorBig thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. We all know running outbound is a huge pain—you need to manage a dozen different tools and data sources and it takes ton of manual work to keep it all going. UserGems solves that with one platform to capture signals and automate next steps with workflows and AI.You get a library of the most impactful signals in one place, automated playbooks to make sure your team executes consistently, and Gem AI to create personalized messaging for each prospect. So stop wasting time and start targeting your most promising buyers with less headcount. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners. Try UserGems

Attribution remains one of the hardest challenges in marketing. It affects literally EVERYTHING: how we’re perceived as a discipline, the strategies we pick, the activities we decide to do—even how we justify our existence. B2B companies generally use some combination of first touch, last touch, or multi-touch attribution. They may apply those approaches very diligently and rigorously, but few stop to consider whether those methods are valid and sound. How do we know whether attribution actually predicts anything? Are we just deluding ourselves? And if we tear down MTA, what do we put in its place? In today's conversation with Pranav Piyush—CEO of Paramark—we discuss how to apply marketing mix modelling and incrementality testing to understand the effectiveness of any channel or asset.Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Pranav Piyush is the Co-Founder and CEO of Paramark, a platform providing marketing measurement and forecasting for fast-growing businesses. Prior to Paramark, he's held growth and marketing leadership roles for companies like Magento, Pilot.com, and BILL. https://www.linkedin.com/in/pranavp/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:45] - Why multi-touch attribution isn’t valid[07:19] - Why MMM overcomes the limitations of MTA[11:05] - Correlation vs. causation[16:00] - Measuring the impact of content[22:47] - How MMM works under the hood[27:12] - Running an incrementality test without MMM[32:26] - Qualitative insights[37:39] - Incrementality deep dive[43:07] - Brand[49:30] - ParamarkThanks to Our SponsorThis November, MOps-Apalooza is back in sunny, Anaheim, California, and it's going to be the marketing ops event of the year, packed with hands-on learning from real practitioners. This is the only truly community-led tech-agnostic MOPS conference out there. It's got the best speakers, the best networking, the best social events, and maybe even a trip to Disneyland. This isn't your 50,000 person tech company conference. It's an intimate gathering of folks who are in the trenches every day. Registration is capped at 700 attendees, and tickets are going fast. MOps-Apalooza 2024 Resource LinksParamark - Stop Guessing, Start Growing: Marketing Measurement Redefined Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

This week we sit down with M.H. Lines, founder of Stack Moxie, to explore how automated testing and monitoring can prevent Martech failures. M.H. shares insights from her experience as a marketing operations leader and explains why many revenue teams are still vulnerable to unexpected system breakdowns. We dive into the challenges that come with managing complex Martech stacks and why early detection through automated tools is essential for keeping operations running smoothly.M.H. also reflects on her journey from marketing leadership to founding Stack Moxie, including how she navigates being a venture-backed startup without compromising on her core principles. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest M.H. Lines founded Stack Moxie in 2018 to bridge the gap between engineering and no-code technology for the SaaS economy. She has helped teams in marketing and technology both in-house and as a consultant at companies like Terex, Cohn & Wolfe, Microsoft, Lowes, The Tile Doctor and IBM Watson Health. MH received an undergraduate degree from The Florida State University in Finance, and her MBA from the Foster School of Business, University of Washington with a focus on Technology Management. https://www.linkedin.com/in/mhlines/Key Topics[00:00] - [00:00] - Introduction[01:49] - Secrets to Gap Folding[03:55] - From marketing to MOPS[07:54] - MOPS as strategic vs. service provider[14:28] - Being wired as a founder[17:55] - Working in mega-enterprise[22:59] - Observability for MOPS[34:35] - Observability and AI[39:12] - Being a VC-backed founder Thanks to Our SponsorBig thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. We all know running outbound is a huge pain—you need to manage a dozen different tools and data sources and it takes ton of manual work to keep it all going. UserGems solves that with one platform to capture signals and automate next steps with workflows and AI.You get a library of the most impactful signals in one place, automated playbooks to make sure your team executes consistently, and Gem AI to create personalized messaging for each prospect. So stop wasting time and start targeting your most promising buyers with less headcount. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners. Try UserGems Resource LinksThe Official Home of Stack Moxie and Revenue Observability Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

This week we chat with Grant Grigorian, a long-time friend of mine and founder of Mogi.ai, to explore whether AI is actually a game-changer for data analytics. We examine what’s broken in the current landscape of data analytics, the complex world of marketing attribution, and the “last mile of analytics” problem (that is., how do you get business users to actually read and use the analyses you produce). Then we dive very deep into practical applications of AI for data analysis, looking at concrete examples to highlight the strengths and weaknesses of large language models (LLMs) and contrasting them with traditional machine learning approaches. In closing, Grant reflects on the future of data careers in the age of AI. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest A startup guy who loves B2B marketing technology, analytics, and AI, Grant Grigorian is a serial entrepreneur. Coming from an operations background, Grant founded Path to Scale, a marketing analytics company, that sold to Engagio (later acquired by DemandBase). Today he's the CEO and co-founder of Mogi, an app that simplifies marketing data analysis by automatically delivering insights and recommendations to your team.https://www.linkedin.com/in/grantgrigorian/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:06] - What’s broken in data analytics[08:45] - Using data to justify marketing’s existence[18:15] - Analyzing marketing tactics[24:39] - The “last mile of analytics” problem[28:56] - Strengths and weaknesses of LLMs to extract insights from data[45:49] - Difference between LLMs and machine learning[50:37] - The importance of context for AI[54:39] - Impact of AI on data careers[1:00:07] - Motivations as a repeat founderThanks to Our SponsorMarketers: it's planning season. Time to live in your office with the world's biggest spreadsheet and hope that finance doesn't slash your budget. Planning is tough, but at least you can put your best foot forward with a structured framework that covers all the bases. Our friends at Uptempo have just launched the Blueprint for Marketing Planning. It's a totally free and comprehensive guide for enterprise marketing teams. You'll get a seven-step planning process that integrates top-down strategy with bottom-up execution and gives you a crystal clear picture of how you'll hit your number. Get your free copy now: Uptempo Planning Guide Resource LinksMogi.ai Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Sales leadership is one of the hardest jobs in the company. Your success is black and white—you've either hit your number, or you haven't—and getting a group of sellers moving in the same direction isn’t easy, as anyone in RevOps knows.Today we're joined by Kyle Asay to dig into what separates top-performing sales leaders from the rest. We talk about how to scale sales excellence, balance standardization with creativity, and build trust and rapport at every stage of the sales process. Kyle also shares his insights on navigating the transition from individual contributor to sales leader, the real role of AI in outbound, and how to build a side hustle while leading a team. Packed with practical frameworks and hard-won lessons, this conversation is a must-listen for sales leaders, individual sellers, and revenue operators supporting sales teams. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Kyle Asay started his career in sales as an SDR at Qualtrics, where he qualified for five consecutive President’s Clubs as an AE, front-line leader, and second-line leader. After an incredible 8.5 years at Qualtrics, he's gone on to serve as a sales leader for MongoDB and currently at LaunchDarkly. You can also find him sharing his frameworks with over 10,000 sellers at SalesIntroverts.comhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/kyleasay/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:52] - Current selling environment[04:46] - Scaling sales excellence[10:05] - Right-sizing discovery phase[12:39] - Building trust and rapport[17:53] - Transitioning from sales IC to sales leader[20:46] - The job of a sales leader[24:10] - Identifying the right people[27:47] - Standardized process vs. individual ingenuity[30:59] - Handling the pressure of sales leadership[34:55] - AEs and SDR alignment [42:47] - AI SDRs[44:59] - Sales and RevOps relationship[48:23] - Building a side hustle Thanks to Our SponsorThis November, MOps-Apalooza is back in sunny, Anaheim, California, and it's going to be the marketing ops event of the year, packed with hands-on learning from real practitioners. This is the only truly community-led tech-agnostic MOPS conference out there. It's got the best speakers, the best networking, the best social events, and maybe even a trip to Disneyland. This isn't your 50,000 person tech company conference. It's an intimate gathering of folks who are in the trenches every day. Registration is capped at 700 attendees, and tickets are going fast. MOps-Apalooza 2024 Resource LinksSales Introverts Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

In this episode, we unravel how advanced AI workflows can scale a truly effective outbound strategy (and not just create more spam). Jordan Crawford shares his expertise on how to use AI to automate deep research, identify the most targeted accounts, and develop unique and relevant messaging—all without falling into the trap of reductive "AI SDR" approaches. We also explore how to leverage AI as a thought partner, the future structure of BizDev teams, and why Clay is all the rage right now.Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Jordan Crawford has been in growth for over 10 years, and for the past three and a half has been the founder of Blueprint, an agency that specializes in structuring any data from the public web about your ideal prospects. He's also been an advisor to Clay since 2021.https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordancrawford/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:59] - Changes in the outbound landscape[06:41] - How to use AI as a thought-partner [11:28] - Why AI SDRs are not the future[14:28] - AI in the writing process[20:42] - What WILL replace the SDR function[28:59] - The difference with enterprise buyers[30:34] - Signals[38:48] - Making AI plays resilient[43:04] - Clay Thanks to Our SponsorThis November, MOps-Apalooza is back in sunny, Anaheim, California, and it's going to be the marketing ops event of the year, packed with hands-on learning from real practitioners. This is the only truly community-led tech-agnostic MOPS conference out there. It's got the best speakers, the best networking, the best social events, and maybe even a trip to Disneyland. This isn't your 50,000 person tech company conference. It's an intimate gathering of folks who are in the trenches every day. Registration is capped at 700 attendees, and tickets are going fast. MOps-Apalooza 2024 Resource LinksBlueprint Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

You may have heard the phrase, "every company is a media company"—but what does this actually mean for B2B? How do you go about building an audience, what content should you use, and how should you measure it? Here to answer these questions is category-creating CMO and founder, Anthony Kennada. He helped pioneer the category of customer success as founding CMO at Gainsight, and today is helping B2B companies develop owned audiences as CEO of AudiencePlus. Anthony is a great marketer who has thought deeply about how brands should develop relationships with audiences for the long term. This wide-ranging conversation explores many facets of how to put this into practice. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Anthony Kennada is the co-founder and CEO of AudiencePlus—building software, content, and community to help every company become a media company.Prior to founding AudiencePlus, he served as the CMO of companies like Hopin, Front, and Gainsight. At this last company, he and his team are credited with creating the Customer Success category. Anthony is also the author of Category Creation: How to Build a Brand that Customers, Employees, and Investors Will Love, which debuted as a number one new release on Amazon.https://www.linkedin.com/in/akennada/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:43] - Evolving through growth stages at Gainsight[06:40] - Category creation[14:09] - Why should every company be a media company? [24:31] - Metrics for audience marketing[34:47] - Partnering with content creators[40:25] - Edutainment[44:29] - Golden HourThanks to Our SponsorBig thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. We all know running outbound is a huge pain—you need to manage a dozen different tools and data sources and it takes ton of manual work to keep it all going. UserGems solves that with one platform to capture signals and automate next steps with workflows and AI.You get a library of the most impactful signals in one place, automated playbooks to make sure your team executes consistently, and Gem AI to create personalized messaging for each prospect. So stop wasting time and start targeting your most promising buyers with less headcount. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners. Try UserGems Resource LinksWhy Every Company is Becoming a Media Company | AudiencePlus Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Quote-to-cash: it's messy, it's technical, and every project takes WAY longer than planned. It's also absolutely vital. If you can't get quotes out the door, or if you can't collect money from your customers, you don't have a business. Because of their complexity, these systems tend to change infrequently, and in-house operators may not get the repetitive exposure necessary to master the intricacies of CPQ or billing system projects. So when I wanted a crash course on quote-to-cash, I turned to Nick and Tony at Hyperscayle—former operators who've built a RevOps agency with a focus on lead-to-cash operations.We go deep into the process and systems, discuss technical gotchas, and explore the change management issues that must be addressed to make quote-to-cash work smoothly. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's GuestsNicholas Rose is Co-Founder of Hyperscayle, a RevOps consulting firm covering lead-to-cash operations. He's previously held senior operations roles at Dell and Mendix (acquired by Siemens AG). Tony Tarantino is Chief Architect at Hyperscayle. Previously, he was a technology consultant at Accenture and application architect at Mendix. Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[00:56] - Making the jump from in-house to agency[05:17] - Quote to cash definitions[10:25] - Design phase and cross-functional alignment [14:06] - When does a company need CPQ [16:41] - Why are CPQ projects so messy[22:34] - Product configuration[28:01] - Ideal tech stack[32:26] - Data quality and deal desk [36:20] - Role of RevOpsThanks to Our SponsorMarketers: it's planning season. Time to live in your office with the world's biggest spreadsheet and hope that finance doesn't slash your budget. Planning is tough, but at least you can put your best foot forward with a structured framework that covers all the bases. Our friends at Uptempo have just launched the Blueprint for Marketing Planning. It's a totally free and comprehensive guide for enterprise marketing teams. You'll get a seven-step planning process that integrates top-down strategy with bottom-up execution and gives you a crystal clear picture of how you'll hit your number. Get your free copy now: Uptempo Planning Guide Resource LinksHyperscayle RevOps Advisory & Implementation Services Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

This week I sit down with seasoned RevOps executive Danielle Marquis to explore the evolving landscape of the discipline and how professionals can find balance and fulfillment in their careers. Danielle shares insights from her 15 years of experience in the field, discussing how RevOps has changed over time and how the role is increasingly being positioned as a critical function within organizations. We dive into the best practices for structuring RevOps teams, prioritizing work, and aligning internal strategies for maximum impact.As the conversation unfolds, we also explore some personal aspects of career growth, with Danielle offering candid advice on how to carve out a fulfilling path in RevOps and find your happy place at work. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest With 15 years of experience in revenue operations, Danielle Marquis has lead global teams supporting sales, marketing, and customer success functions in achieving their goals and growing the business. Her super power is connecting the dots across various business decisions and technologies to drive and design a more operationalized path to GTM. https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniellemarquis/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:06] - Evolution of RevOps in the past 15 years[11:08] - Positioning RevOps internally[16:46] - Team structure[26:16] - Planning and prioritization[30:40] - Finding your happy place at work[39:40] - What’s next in RevOps[43:46] - RevOps vs. GTM OpsThanks to Our SponsorThis November, MOps-Apalooza is back in sunny, Anaheim, California, and it's going to be the marketing ops event of the year, packed with hands-on learning from real practitioners. This is the only truly community-led tech-agnostic MOPS conference out there. It's got the best speakers, the best networking, the best social events, and maybe even a trip to Disneyland. This isn't your 50,000 person tech company conference. It's an intimate gathering of folks who are in the trenches every day. Registration is capped at 700 attendees, and tickets are going fast. MOps-Apalooza 2024 Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

This week I'm sharing another podcast I've guested on recently: The Revenue Marketing Report, hosted by Camela Thompson of Caliber Mind.Camela is a veteran marketing and analytics leader, and we have an in-depth conversation about the business and cultural dimensions of reporting: what KPIs are you reporting to different audiences, data rituals, analytics storytelling, and more. This is a super important topic for me, because how you create and share data stories in your organization can be the difference between building an executive-level presence for yourself or getting pigeon-holed as a service provider. We'll be back to regularly scheduled programming next week, until then, enjoy the rest of your August. ------Justin Norris, host of the RevOps FM Podcast and Sr. Director of BDR and Marketing Operations at 360Learning, joins our host, Camela Thompson, Go-To-Market Thought Leader and B2B Insights Expert, in this episode of the Revenue Marketing Report. Justin shares his insights and how years of experience sitting at the executive table representing marketing changed his views about which numbers matter most and why. They also geeked out over why MQLs are evil, how to build a ritual around data, and why B2B ops and marketing should focus more on learning from one another.For more great content like this, check out https://calibermind.com/

It’s August and I’m taking some time off this month to travel and recharge a bit. But I didn’t want to leave you hanging for a whole month, so I thought it would a great time to share some recent podcasts where I’ve been featured as a guest. First up, we have an episode on Beyond the Pipeline with Vivin Vergis, where we do a deep dive into reporting for B2B SaaS orgs. This is a tough, thorny, sometimes painful topic, but Vivin asked some really great questions and we explore how to tell better stories with data, create a culture of objectivity, prioritize ad-hoc requests, and a whole bunch more. Let’s dive in to the episode.--------In this episode of Beyond the Pipeline, host Vivin welcomes Justin Norris, Director of Marketing and BDR Operations at 360 Learning and host of the RevOpps FM podcast. Justin shares his journey into operations, transitioning from an English major to a pivotal figure in marketing operations. They dive deep into the challenges of reporting in B2B SaaS, discussing concepts like reporting fatigue, the importance of storytelling in data presentation, and handling impulsive reporting requests.Justin emphasizes the need for a cultural shift towards objective data analysis and the role of ops in being accountable for business performance. Tune in to gain valuable insights on managing reporting requests, addressing cognitive biases, achieving a single source of truth, and avoiding reporting fatigue in B2B SaaS.Timestamps:[00:02] Introduction and Justin’s Journey into OperationsJustin shares his unique path from being an English major to becoming a pivotal figure in marketing operations.[03:32] Reporting Fatigue in B2B SaaSDiscussion on the challenges of data overload and how reporting fatigue sets in within organizations.[07:22] Storytelling with DataThe importance of creating a narrative around data and how effective communication can alleviate reporting fatigue.[08:23] Handling Impulsive Reporting RequestsStrategies for filtering and prioritizing reporting requests from different teams to avoid unnecessary work.[14:38] Enabling Self-Serve ReportingTips on empowering teams to generate their own reports and the role of ops in making tools accessible.[19:35] Common Reporting Tools and Their LimitationsComparing the effectiveness of tools like Salesforce, Looker, and Tableau for self-serve and advanced reporting needs.[27:58] Cognitive Bias in ReportingAddressing the impact of biases like confirmation bias in reporting and the importance of maintaining objectivity.[35:45] Taking Action on Data InsightsThe critical role of follow-through on data insights and establishing a feedback loop for continuous improvement.[39:49] Achieving a Single Source of TruthChallenges and strategies for creating a single source of truth in organizations and the trade-offs involved.

Enabling revenue teams to use the systems we build and maintain is a huge part of our job as revenue operators. Unfortunately for us, it often doesn’t work very well. We create documents that no one reads. They sit in knowledge bases that no one visits.We're repeatedly interrupted by Slack messages from confused users. We're forced to send Chatter reminders asking people to PLEASE follow the process for the 500th time. Today’s guest thinks that there’s a better way to do software enablement, and he founded a company called Tango to deliver on that promise.Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Daniel Giovacchini is COO and Co-Founder at Tango, a tool for creating how-to documentation and software walkthroughs that drive digital process adoption. https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-giovacchini/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:52] - AI and changes in the tech market[06:33] - Two approaches to enablement[10:43] - Building a minimum-lovable product[20:44] - Bottom-up monetization[29:38] - Learning in the flow of work [36:37] - The knowledge management stack[40:09] - Role as COOThanks to Our SponsorThis November, MOps-Apalooza is back in sunny, Anaheim, California, and it's going to be the marketing ops event of the year, packed with hands-on learning from real practitioners. This is the only truly community-led tech-agnostic MOPS conference out there. It's got the best speakers, the best networking, the best social events, and maybe even a trip to Disneyland. This isn't your 50,000 person tech company conference. It's an intimate gathering of folks who are in the trenches every day. Registration is capped at 700 attendees, and tickets are going fast. MOps-Apalooza 2024 Resource LinksCreate software training guides, in minutes | Tango Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Matt Volm is the founder of RevOps Co-op, a vibrant community for RevOps pros. He shares his journey as a repeat founder, who has taken the roller-coaster of building multiple startups, and reflects on the tenacity and toughness it requires. RevOps Co-op actually started as a community in support of a software company, but when Matt saw the need for more education and resources for the RevOps field, he pivoted and hasn't looked back. Matt and I discuss the crucial interplay between finance and RevOps, how RevOps pros can build their finance acumen, the hot debate on unified vs. split RevOps functions, and much more. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Matt Volm is a repeat founder and CEO of RevOps Co-op, a community for folks who love revenue operations. He's also a scout at Mucker Capital, focused on early stage B2B software. Matt has an MBA from Berkeley Haas and a background in strategic finance, operations and business development.https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewvolm/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:01] - Finance and RevOps[07:01] - Developing finance literacy[10:15] - Operating during the tech bubble[12:35] - Unified vs. split RevOps[21:13] - RevOps Co-op[27:53] - Lessons learned as a repeat founder[32:00] - The community-led business model[39:05] - What’s next for RevOps?Thanks to Our SponsorThis November, MOps-Apalooza is back in sunny, Anaheim, California, and it's going to be the marketing ops event of the year, packed with hands-on learning from real practitioners. This is the only truly community-led tech-agnostic MOPS conference out there. It's got the best speakers, the best networking, the best social events, and maybe even a trip to Disneyland. This isn't your 50,000 person tech company conference. It's an intimate gathering of folks who are in the trenches every day. Registration is capped at 700 attendees, and tickets are going fast. MOps-Apalooza 2024 Resource LinksRevOps Co-opI just shut down my startup. Here’s what I learned. Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Content has been the lifeblood of how B2B companies go to market for at least 20 years, since Hubspot pioneered the concept of Inbound Marketing. We make content, we drip it out, we nurture people with it, we align it with our funnels, and we have a conviction that it makes people buy things—although that's also quite difficult to prove.The content game is not going anywhere, but it IS changing. And to guide us through those changes, we're chatting today with B2B content expert Ashley Faus, Head of Lifecycle Marketing at Atlassian. Ashley challenges traditional content mapping to the B2B funnel and introduces the idea of a "content playground" where people engage with content in a way that suits them best in a non-linear, non-standard journey. She also delves into the different intents behind content (buy, use, help, trust), the different levels of content (conceptual, strategic, tactical), the nuances between individual and brand-led content, and the growing role of B2B creators.Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Ashley Faus is a marketer, writer, speaker by day, and a singer, actor, fitness fiend by night.She's a leading content marketing expert who loves telling the high-level stories that resonate with an audience and connecting the dots between types of assets and distribution channels. For the past seven years, she's been the Head of Lifecycle Marketing, Portfolio, at Atlassian. Her writing has been published on TIME, Forbes, MarketingProfs, and The Muse, and she's spoken on various marketing topics for INBOUND, Harvard Business Review, and MarketingProfs.https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyfaus/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:17] - A brief history of content marketing[04:41] - Over-indexing on attribution[08:55] - Different types of content intent [15:42] - Individual vs. brand-led content[19:12] - B2B creators[29:24] - The content playground [45:52] - Email as a consumption channel[49:02] - Treating people as a whole human[51:47] - Content formats[54:54] - AIResource LinksCreate a “Content Playground” that’s Fun for Buyers (and Lucrative for You) Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

In this week's episode, we delve into the evolving landscape of sales with Jacco van der Kooij, founder of Winning by Design and a renowned expert in go-to-market strategies.We begin by reflecting on the "Golden Age of SaaS," a period defined by rapid growth but also unsustainable business dynamics. As market conditions shift, we explore how revenue teams must adapt to thrive in the current environment.AI is becoming an integral part of the sales industry. Jacco shares his insights on how AI will transform sales roles, automating many tasks that currently consume significant time and resources and shrinking the number of jobs. Revenue Operations has a crucial role in this changing landscape, as the only function positioned to optimize the end-to-end buying process. Join us for a thoughtful discussion on the past, present, and future of sales, and gain valuable insights from one of the industry's leading minds.Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Jacco van der Kooij is an internationally renowned author, business leader, and thought leader on revenue growth and strategy. He is the founder of Winning By Design, a global B2B revenue consulting and training company, which consults for and trains GTM teams at companies such as Uber Eats, DocuSign, MURAL and OwnBackup.https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaccovanderkooij/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:27] - The Golden Age of SaaS[04:21] - The old style vs. the new style of buying[08:34] - Adapting to the new reality[16:19] - Sales rockstars vs. consistent process[19:01] - The role of RevOps in establishing repeatability[26:50] - How to get salespeople to follow process [32:06] - AI vs. humans in sales[46:14] - Increasing focus on delivering impactThanks to Our SponsorBig thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. We all know running outbound is a huge pain—you need to manage a dozen different tools and data sources and it takes ton of manual work to keep it all going. UserGems solves that with one platform to capture signals and automate next steps with workflows and AI.You get a library of the most impactful signals in one place, automated playbooks to make sure your team executes consistently, and Gem AI to create personalized messaging for each prospect. So stop wasting time and start targeting your most promising buyers with less headcount. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners. Try UserGems Resource LinksWinning by Design Resource LibraryRevenue Architecture Book, by Jacco van der KooijThe Revenue Formula Podcast - The SaaS Reset and what's nextMarc Andreeson - Why Software is Eating the...

Is the future of SaaS growth product-led or sales-led? What if it's both? Zapier uses PLG to create an ecosystem of users and product signals which then drives their sales-led outreach. Coordinating these motions in parallel takes technical sophistication, great communication, and tight process. Fortunately, they have a unified RevOps team that keeps everyone on the same page. This week we chat with Lindsay Rothlisberger, Director of RevOps at Zapier, about how her team helps the magic happen. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Lindsay Rothlisberger is a dedicated Revenue Operations Leader with a background enriched in marketing. She thrives on transforming ideas into strategies that improve the customer experience and business metrics. She currently serves as Director of Revenue Operations at Zapier, and has previously held marketing positions at UNiDAYS, Oracle, and Blackboard. https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindsay-rothlisberger/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[00:59] - The RevOps scope at Zapier [02:52] - Blending PLG and Sales-Led Funnels [15:11] - How RevOps helps coordinate different GTM motions[22:19] - Org and reporting structure [28:49] - Planning and prioritization[34:05] - Tech stack and governance[41:07] - Tracking signals and CRM architectureThanks to Our SponsorThis November, MOps-Apalooza is back in sunny, Anaheim, California, and it's going to be the marketing ops event of the year, packed with hands-on learning from real practitioners. This is the only truly community-led tech-agnostic MOPS conference out there. It's got the best speakers, the best networking, the best social events, and maybe even a trip to Disneyland. This isn't your 50,000 person tech company conference. It's an intimate gathering of folks who are in the trenches every day. Registration is capped at 700 attendees, and tickets are going fast. MOps-Apalooza 2024 Resource LinksHow Zapier created a centralized revenue operations team Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

B2B buying signals are generating a lot of buzz right now—and for good reason.In today's challenging selling environment, conversion rates are dipping, and identifying active buyers has become more critical than ever. Signal vendors offer a promising solution, but the questions remain: Are these signals truly transformative? How can they enhance your go-to-market strategy? And what the heck is a "signal" anyhow?In this episode, Chris Walker joins me to demystify the concept of buying signals. With his characteristic clarity and candor, Chris sheds light on why he's emphasizing signals as a key driver for efficient growth.Regular listeners will know Chris as a significant influence on my thinking. I’ve learned a lot from him over the years, making it a true pleasure to finally have him on the show.Tune in as we cut through the noise and delve into the real impact of B2B buying signals.Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Chris Walker is a serial entrepreneur and go-to-market thought leader. In 2019 he founded Refine Labs, the leading B2B Digital Marketing and Demand Generation agency, growing it to an 8-figure revenue business with a dominating digital presence in less than 3 years. In 2024 he launched Passetto, a tech-enabled GTM Strategy Consultancy that helps B2B executives identify and execute against their highest priority growth levers with confidence and clarity. Chris is host of B2B Revenue Vitals (formerly State of Demand Gen), one of the top marketing and GTM podcasts. https://www.linkedin.com/in/chriswalker171/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:34] - Shifting focus to signals[08:03] - What is a signal?[11:59] - The signal data layer[18:12] - Connection between demand creation and signals[21:13] - Landscape of signal tools[24:39] - Identifying high-converting signals[36:25] - Inbound vs. outbound [40:34] - How RevOps can level upThanks to Our SponsorThis November, MOps-Apalooza is back in sunny, Anaheim, California, and it's going to be the marketing ops event of the year, packed with hands-on learning from real practitioners. This is the only truly community-led tech-agnostic MOPS conference out there. It's got the best speakers, the best networking, the best social events, and maybe even a trip to Disneyland. This isn't your 50,000 person tech company conference. It's an intimate gathering of folks who are in the trenches every day. Registration is capped at 700 attendees, and tickets are going fast. MOps-Apalooza 2024 Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter Thanks to our friends at Hatch for producing this episode. Get unlimited podcast editing at www.hatch.fm

I have a fascination with how SaaS products actually get made—especially those that become institutions in the software landscape. As users, we become deeply familiar with these products, the nitty-gritty of how they work, and what it's like to live inside them. People base entire careers on these platforms. What we usually DON'T see is the backstory: How do these great products get designed? What were the decisions and trade-offs along the way? How do they catch on?How do you create lovable features? What causes great products to often stagnate? Today's guest is a legendary product leader and innovator. As the first employee of Marketo, Glen Lipka led the product team during a critical early phase, building many of its still most-beloved features.This episode is packed with Marketo lore, product design insights, and lessons about how to build a product that users love. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Glen Lipka is a 25+ year veteran of product innovation and design. As Chief Design Officer and first employee at Marketo, he built the flagship product. He has held numerous other product leadership roles and is currently VP of Product Design for Crowdstrike. https://www.linkedin.com/in/glenlipka/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:14] - Glen’s start at Marketo[02:56] - Marketo’s first features[13:36] - Product differentiation[20:37] - Developing the concept of marketing automation[26:00] - Why great products start to suck[40:46] - Hubspot as a product company[44:19] - AIResource LinksGlen's series of retrospective articles on building MarketoGlen's personal blog Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

What does it take to scale a company from $100M to over $1B in ARR? Cody Guymon has taken a journey that most revenue operators could only dream of—helping Qualtrics scale to an $8B acquisition and then a $27B IPO. Now he's back at an earlier stage company, hoping to repeat the trip all over again. We chat through his lessons learned, his forecasting methodology, and how he architected a unified RevOps function with the CEO before joining Workato.Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Cody Guymon is a strategic sales and operations leader, leading teams at Vivint, Qualtrics, and now Workato. He helped scale Qualtrics from a $1B unicorn to an $8B SAP acquisition and then through an IPO at a $20B+ valuation. Today he serves as the COO of GTM Operations at Workato. https://www.linkedin.com/in/codyguymon/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:07] - What is GTM operations?[03:50] - Working 1-1 with reps in the field[04:46] - Creating a truly unified GTM ops function[16:56] - Go-to-market analytics[19:16] - Pros and cons of unification [23:29] - Project planning and prioritization[30:17] - Forecasting and thinking long-term[39:24] - Experience at Qualtrics and SAP[47:03] - Cody’s daily routinesThanks to Our SponsorBig thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. We all know running outbound is a huge pain—you need to manage a dozen different tools and data sources and it takes ton of manual work to keep it all going. UserGems solves that with one platform to capture signals and automate next steps with workflows and AI.You get a library of the most impactful signals in one place, automated playbooks to make sure your team executes consistently, and Gem AI to create personalized messaging for each prospect. So stop wasting time and start targeting your most promising buyers with less headcount. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners. Try UserGems Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

There's a set of skills we rely on everyday at work, often without realizing it: how we think about problems, make decisions, market our ideas, manage up, give feedback...they're all part of the operating system of how we interface with the business world.I’m fascinated by these things both because they have a massive impact on our effectiveness and because they often go unexamined. They’re just part of how we operate. But what if our ways of working are holding us back? What if we could optimize them and radically improve our performance? Today's guest is a serial entrepreneur, marketer, and operator. These days she focuses on exploring and writing about these "deceivingly basic" topics in one of my favourite newsletters, which reaches more than 250,000 people. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Wes Kao is an entrepreneur, speaker, coach, and advisor who writes at newsletter.weskao.com. She is co-founder of Maven, an edtech company that raised $25M from First Round and Andreessen Horowitz. Previously, she co-founded the altMBA with bestselling author Seth Godin.https://www.linkedin.com/in/weskao/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:28] - Why write about “deceivingly basic” topics [06:56] - Rigorous thinking[10:43] - Building a culture of rigorous thinking [21:10] - Bottom line up front[26:39] - Relationship with your manager[37:23] - Change management[41:32] - Empathy[44:09] - Being a LinkedIn creatorThanks to Our SponsorThis November, MOps-Apalooza is back in sunny, Anaheim, California, and it's going to be the marketing ops event of the year, packed with hands-on learning from real practitioners. This is the only truly community-led tech-agnostic MOPS conference out there. It's got the best speakers, the best networking, the best social events, and maybe even a trip to Disneyland. This isn't your 50,000 person tech company conference. It's an intimate gathering of folks who are in the trenches every day. Registration is capped at 700 attendees, and tickets are going fast. MOps-Apalooza 2024 Resource LinksWes Kao's Newsletter Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Running business systems at enterprise scale has some unique challenges—especially when that enterprise is Hubspot. Today we're fortunate to chat with Rich Archbold, whose team supports all GTM systems and automation at Hubspot, including Hubspot's own Hubspot implementation. This is a truly fascinating peek behind the scenes at one of the most iconic tech companies. Rich also shares generously from his deep experience, providing insights into how to foster a culture of agility, customer-centricity, and impact within a business systems team. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Rich Archbold is VP of Engineering for GTM Systems at Hubspot. He is passionate about building and scaling high-performing, highly engaged teams that build and operate world-class, mission-critical technology products and services. Prior to Hubspot, he held business systems and engineering leadership roles at Intercom, Facebook, and Amazon. https://www.linkedin.com/in/richardarchbold/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:06] - Transitioning from engineering to business systems[10:42] - GTM systems team structure at Hubspot[15:17] - Centralized vs. decentralized systems ownership[20:51] - Hubspot’s tech stack[23:02] - Can Hubspot work at enterprise scale?[25:11] - Hubspot Prospecting Workspace[31:16] - Use of Workato[33:24] - Lead processing systems[36:23] - Data quality[46:22] - PrioritizationThanks to Our SponsorThis November, MOps-Apalooza is back in sunny, Anaheim, California, and it's going to be the marketing ops event of the year, packed with hands-on learning from real practitioners. This is the only truly community-led tech-agnostic MOPS conference out there. It's got the best speakers, the best networking, the best social events, and maybe even a trip to Disneyland. This isn't your 50,000 person tech company conference. It's an intimate gathering of folks who are in the trenches every day. Registration is capped at 700 attendees, and tickets are going fast. MOps-Apalooza 2024 Resource Links6 things I learned the hard way leading business systems Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

I'm a really big believer in the idea of a unified RevOps function supporting all the go-to-market teams. But I'll be honest, sometimes it's a little discouraging when I look at how RevOps is done in practice, because outside of a few examples, I usually see essentially a sales ops function with a new name.So I wanted to find people who are actually leading a unified RevOps team in the real world and to understand how they're doing it and how it's working out for them. Today's guest is leading a very mature RevOps function at Electric and has a ton of practical insight to share. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Julia Kim is VP of Revenue Operations for Electric and an Adjunct Instructor at Columbia University. She has over 10 years experience as an operations executive and has launched award-winning consumer and SaaS products mentioned in the Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Forrester, and TechCrunch.Before Electric, she led GTM operations for 4 profitable acquisitions. In addition to her RevOps experience, she has a technical background with a recent focus in artificial intelligence and predictive data modelling. https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliajuleskim/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:50] - Definition of Revenue Operations[03:40] - RevOps at different stages of maturity[09:09] - Deep dive on Julia’s team structure[14:00] - Collaboration within the RevOps team[21:52] - Addressing concerns about unifying the ops functions[28:07] - Identifying biggest opportunities for impact[37:19] - Relationship with data team [40:11] - Change management and enablement[47:37] - RevOps and AI[55:11] - What’s a current challenge? Thanks to Our SponsorBig thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. We all know running outbound is a huge pain—you need to manage a dozen different tools and data sources and it takes ton of manual work to keep it all going. UserGems solves that with one platform to capture signals and automate next steps with workflows and AI.You get a library of the most impactful signals in one place, automated playbooks to make sure your team executes consistently, and Gem AI to create personalized messaging for each prospect. So stop wasting time and start targeting your most promising buyers with less headcount. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners. Try UserGems Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Every company pays lip service to privacy. But few seem to really value it in practice.In marketing and sales, we rely on personal and behavioural data for so many commonplace tactics, and this reliance is only increasing. It's a kind of arms race. Even if you wanted to, it feels like you can't afford to give up the perceived advantages of using personal data.And even as we continually hear about the "death" of this or that type of tracking, the reality is that hundreds of billions of advertising revenue are on the line. The incentives to keep collecting and commodifying our data are huge. I wanted to dig deeper into the current state of privacy in marketing today, and I could think of no better person to reach out to than Stephane Hamel. He is a legendary practitioner and thought leader in the digital analytics space and one of the foremost advocates for privacy and ethics in marketing.Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Stephane Hamel is a digital analytics and marketing expert with over 35 years experience. He has spoken at over 150 industry events and was named one of the Most Influential Industry Contributors by the Digital Analytics Association. As an educator, he’s taught thousands of students at institutions including UBC, SimpliLearn, ULaval, Harvard, YorkU, and others. In recent years, he’s focused his attention on the ethical use of data in a marketing contexthttps://www.linkedin.com/in/shamel/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:49] - Current state of privacy in marketing[03:30] - Vision of a truly privacy-oriented company[08:20] - How a 100% consent-based model would work[10:59] - Is privacy-respecting marketing better marketing?[13:26] - Analogy of seatbelts[17:32] - Getting people to care about privacy [20:50] - Advertising in a privacy-first world[24:21] - Conflict between privacy and commercial interests [31:41] - Google and the “death” of third-party cookies[36:47] - AI literacy [41:44] - Career impact of being privacy-orientedLearn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Refine Labs has had a seismic impact on B2B marketing. Whether you agree with their philosophy or not, it's hard to deny its influence. They've set the agenda, defined the terms of the debate, and challenged many aspects of the status quo. Former CEO Chris Walker catapulted the agency to prominence with his LinkedIn thought leadership. But behind the scenes, there's also been an intricate operational odyssey to scale Refine Labs from scratch to nearly 100 employees. Today's guest, Megan Bowen, partnered with Chris from the beginning as COO before taking over as CEO in January of 2024. In this no-holds-barred episode, she shares an operational perspective on building Refine Labs, with candid stories and insights about scaling a service-based business, riding the hyper-growth rollercoaster, and weathering economic storms. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Over her 20+ year career, Megan Bowen has built and scaled go-to-market teams at eChalk, ZocDoc, Grubhub/Seamless (IPO: 2014), ManagedbyQ (WeWork Acquisition: 2019) and Platterz. In 2020, she teamed up with the Founder of Refine Labs to change the way B2B companies go-to-market.Today, she is the CEO of Refine Labs, A B2B Demand Generation Agency.https://www.linkedin.com/in/meganwhitebowen/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:32] - Megan’s background[07:06] - Building Refine Labs[14:15] - Stepping into the CEO role [16:34] - Prioritizing the health of your team [21:56] - Segmenting clients and service levels[23:54] - Packaging, pricing, and service design[25:46] - Transparency in the sales process[27:43] - Achieving consistent service quality when scaling the team [31:21] - Onboarding process [31:59] - Balancing supply and demand in agency staffing[35:23] - Transparency around layoffs[37:12] - Evolution of Refine Labs methodology[40:36] - Partnership with AspireshipResource LinksRefine Labs | Leading B2B Demand Generation AgencyRefine Labs x Aspireship - Get subsidized access to the Refine Labs IP library with Aspireship. Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

I think marketing is one of the toughest functions to lead successfully.Your job is part art, part science. You need to hire, coach, and retain talent with a huge range of skillsets that you may even not be master of yourself—from the creative to the analytical to the technical.And then your job is to simultaneously create demand, capture demand, help sales convert that demand, help customer success retain and expand that demand...your job is never done.Today we chat with one of my favourite marketing leaders, Thao Ngo. We'll explore her unconventional marketing strategy and also her leadership playbook—how she grows her team and creates an environment where people do their best work. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Thao Ngo is a senior B2B marketing leader with 20+ years of experience in building world-class teams, generating sales-ready leads, and creating brand awareness for tech companies of various sizes. She's led marketing teams at Elastic Path, Vision Critical, and SensorUp, and is currently SVP of Marketing at Uptempo. https://www.linkedin.com/in/thaongo/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:09] - What makes a great marketer?[02:40] - Evolution of marketing skills[04:48] - How to use data[06:25] - Marketing leadership and operating rhythms[09:30] - Trust and psychological safety[12:49] - Coaching and feedback [24:32] - First hires on a marketing team[25:43] - Division of labour between CMO and VP[28:05] - What keeps Thao up at night[29:47] - The marketing planning process[36:24] - Influencer / community marketing programs[47:13] - A day in the life of ThaoResource LinksLive MOps Huddles Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

More and more marketers are embracing demand creation as a strategy, at least in principle. But making a fundamental GTM change is HARD. You need to build executive alignment, define new KPIs, identify how to educate your target audience, fine-tune your content engine, and a whole lot more. As VP of Demand Gen at Refine Labs, Sam Kuehnle has been a big part of the movement evangelizing a shift from lead gen to demand gen and has helped many companies make the transition. Now he's leading a similar shift as an in-house marketing leader. We go deep into what it takes to actually implement this strategy in practice, go beyond leads, and deliver real revenue impact. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Sam Kuehnle is VP of Marketing at Loxo, the Talent Intelligence Platform. From working in-house at a publicly-traded company, to advising seed stage companies trying to figure out how to crack their first $1M in ARR, to everything in-between, Sam is passionate about learning and sharing better ways to do marketing. Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:37] - Sam’s marketing experience before Refine Labs [06:33] - Joining Refine Labs[08:11] - Refine Labs onboarding process[10:21] - A typical engagement + aligning with customer teams[13:36] - How to communicate a demand creation strategy[20:26] - Identifying the right mix of channels / platforms [25:02] - Leading indicators for demand creation[26:45] - Brand awareness vs. demand creation[31:32] - Evolution during Sam’s tenure at Refine[33:33] - The band-wagon effect and how to identify the best practices of tomorrow[35:11] - Joining Loxo [37:10] - Sam’s first priorities after going in house [41:38] - LinkedIn ad strategy[45:09] - Experiments with Connected TV[51:35] - ChatGPT as a marketing channelResource LinksSam's Marketing Meditations - Sam's Substack Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

I've worked with a bunch of different sellers. Some were good. Some not so much. But one or two were truly next level.They had consistently better results. They brought in bigger deals. They closed accounts no one else could. And they just seemed to "get it" in a different way. They were switched on—you didn't need to tell them what to do. Whatever challenge you threw at them, they found a way. They seemed built just a little bit differently than other people on the team.I've always been curious about what makes those great sellers great.To help answer that question, I sat down with true superstar of the sales world, 5x President's Club winner Brian LaManna, Strategic AE at Gong. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Brian LaManna is a Strategic Account Executive at Gong and Founder of Closed Won, where he offers resources and playbooks for sellers. He is a 5x President's Club winner and regularly achieves 200%+ of quota. https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianlamanna/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:28] - Role of a seller in the revenue process[03:11] - Sales is not convincing[04:03] - Defusing prospect defensiveness[05:48] - When to break the sales process[07:21] - Are good sellers born or made? [09:26] - Attributes of a great seller[11:25] - Developing a “CEO” mindset[13:17] - Cultivating real relationships with customers[16:11] - Mindsets, strategies, and routines [24:18] - Benefits of selling Gong[25:28] - The sales / sales ops relationship[28:53] - How ops can get sellers to cooperate[31:45] - What does Gong’s RevOps team do well? [33:43] - Why AEs should always be prospecting[39:02] - Current state of outbound [41:39] - Live example: creating a tailored cold email[44:47] - Personalization vs. relevance[46:45] - How sellers can win at “social selling”Resource LinksClosed Won | Systematizing OutboundLinkedIn Post: Personalization vs. Relevance Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

SaaS companies spent the past decade optimizing for growth and customer acquisition at all costs. For many, the plan to actually retain and grow those customers has been foggy.Now with many businesses facing the reality of massive churn, it's become incredibly clear that helping customers succeed is just as important as acquiring them in the first place.So we're here today to discuss the third leg of the RevOps stool: customer success ops, and by extension, the discipline of customer success as well.CS Ops doesn't get as much love or attention as marketing or sales ops—one of my past guests jokingly referred to CS Ops as the "red-headed step-child" of RevOps. But I think, and hope, this is starting to evolve.Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Stephen McBride is a Customer Success and CS Ops leader dedicated to helping companies grow better. His career has spanned in-house and consulting roles, and he’s spent over seven years in total at Hubspot, five of them as a leader in their Customer Success Org. He recently returned to the agency world with Go Nimbly as a RevOps Delivery Director. https://www.linkedin.com/in/mcbridest/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:49] - Defining the role of customer success[02:51] - Role of CS in a PLG motion[03:37] - Strategies of a great CS team[06:00] - CS strategy at Hubspot[07:56] - Why do some big companies neglect CS?[09:29] - CS as cost center vs. growth driver[11:38] - Balancing the mindset of customer support vs. upselling[14:09] - Defining the mission of your CS team[15:36] - CS as a point of leverage in the customer experience[17:28] - Impact of macro-economic factors on CS strategies[20:06] - Identifying the impact of CS, factors you can A/B test[21:35] - Scope and mission of CS Operations [23:23] - CS Ops as a its own function vs. part of RevOps[29:09] - Who should a unified RevOps function report to?[31:52] - CS Ops vs. MOPS and SOPS[34:42] - CS tools and systems[40:19] - A best-in-class CS tech stack[42:34] - Churn forecasting[44:35] - Getting truly useful health scores[48:34] - Reducing churn Thanks to Our SponsorBig thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. We all know running outbound is a huge pain—you need to manage a dozen different tools and data sources and it takes ton of manual work to keep it all going. UserGems solves that with one platform to capture signals and automate next steps with workflows and AI.You get a library of the most impactful signals in one place, automated playbooks to make sure your team executes consistently, and Gem AI to create personalized messaging for each prospect. So stop wasting time and start targeting your most promising buyers with less headcount. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners. Try UserGems Resource LinksNet Revenue Retention Hub - Go Nimbly - Go Nimbly's excellent hub on NRR and CS topics. Learn...

Prioritization is probably the biggest challenge for ops teams. Say yes to everything—you pretty quickly become a service department. Set your own priorities without input from the business—you can quickly find yourself irrelevant, even out of a job.The best model that I've seen for tackling this problem is what we could call the product management approach to managing MarTech. This is where you effectively treat your stack as an internal product and ops as a product management team working on delivering features for internal customers. Today's guest has practiced this approach at enterprise scale, with an ops team dozens strong. Josh Hill shares his insights and lessons learned, as well as his journey as one of the earliest and well-recognized experts in the Marketo community. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Josh Hill is a GTM operations and systems executive who builds revenue accelerating GTM platforms, global teams, and processes in partnership with Product, Sales, and Marketing. He has a strong track record of turning business strategies into live enterprise capabilities and impactful customer experiences. https://www.linkedin.com/in/jhill2/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:37] - Josh’s professional journey[04:19] - Development of automation pro as a professional identity[06:48] - Scope and scale of the teams Josh led[08:54] - Definition of a product management approach to martech[15:45] - Should marketing ops be oriented around business impact? [21:03] - Reasons why ops teams need to say “no” sometimes[27:38] - Solving for the internal vs. external customer [30:39] - Asking tough questions about adoption and ROI [33:53] - Building your roadmap [35:53] - Communicating your roadmap internally[40:10] - Cultivating resolve around prioritization and triaging requests[42:43] - How to transition to a product management approach Resource Links Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Every marketing team  wants attribution. But weirdly, it's often not that satisfying when they actually get it. I led many multi-touch attribution projects as a consultant, and we got really good at implementing tools, creating taxonomies, and making sure that data was clean.But I found that when you actually showed these reports to a C-level executive, it was usually kind of underwhelming. The data didn't always pass the common sense test. Today's guest thinks there's a better way — Marketing Mix Modelling. It's basically the application of mathematical techniques to model relationships between different variables. However, technology now enables it to happen faster and more cost-effectively than ever before. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Mark Stouse is CEO of ProofAnalytics.AI. With over 26 years of experience in marketing communications and strategy, he has a passion for transforming GTM performance with data-driven insights and agile decision making. Prior to founding Proof, Mark was CMO at Honeywell Aerospace, CCO at BMC Software, and a marketing leader at Hewlett Packard Enterprise. https://www.linkedin.com/in/markstouse/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:15] - Clarifying the acronym “MMM”[02:39] - Mark’s background and how he founded Proof Analytics [07:57] - Limitations of multi-touch attribution (“MTA”)[14:16] - How MMM avoids the shortcomings of MTA[16:42] - The Fischer Price definition of MMM[19:56] - Demand vs. brand investments and their impact[24:09] - A/B vs. multivariate regression[25:21] - MMM is aggregate modelling, no reliance on PII[27:12] - Simple explanation of multi-variate regression[30:29] - Incorporating third-party data sources[31:48] - Historical ROI vs. forecasted ROI[32:52] - Is MMM just for enterprise?[34:51] - Marketing as a non-linear multiplier[38:02] - Getting started with MMM[41:18] - Updating models to include new data sources[42:07] - Competition in the marketing analytics space[44:41] - B2C marketing is more advanced in usage of multi-variate regressionResource LinksProof Analytics - Official SiteEconometrics // Lecture 1: Introduction Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

For most of us in B2B, the marketing automation platform - aka "MAP" - is the anchoring piece of technology in the martech stack.When I was first buying a MAP, there were way more options than today, but generally they all bundled a few core features together — sending emails, segmenting audiences, and creating workflows.But is there a reason why you need to do your lifecycle processing in the same tool that you send emails with? What does a Martech stack look like where these roles are distributed differently?Today's guest has answered that question and built an elegant and high-performing composable stack.Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Niels Fogt is Sr. Director, Automation Solutions at tray.io. He's led and participated in a wide variety of initiatives within growth and marketing. Strong technical acumen. UX roots.https://www.linkedin.com/in/uxstrategist/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[02:31] - Niels’ journey as a martech architect [06:06] - Challenges with the traditional martech stack[09:13] - Developer mindsets and service-oriented architecture[12:10] - Applying automation capabilities across the organization[14:09] - Components of Tray’s martech stack[15:02] - The role of a customer journey tool[16:07] - Centralized lead processing in Tray[17:23] - Event collection[19:09] - Streaming events into automation tool vs. data warehouse [22:21] - Native vs. custom integrations[29:15] - Benefits of having a workflow layer in Tray vs. in a MAP[32:02] - Economics of using an iPaaS as a workflow layer[34:50] - Composable martech stacks [39:03] - Skillsets needed to operate a composable stack[40:01] - Future capabilities[41:25] - Relationship to business stakeholdersResource LinksWhy low code is the future of lead management (and RevOps)Introduction to the lead processing pipeline on Tray.ioOpen source RevOps: Taking a closer look at the first few steps of the lead processing pipeline Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Kyle Coleman is one of the most prominent revenue leaders on LinkedIn and a long-time champion of sales development. So there was no one better to chat with about the future of the SDR function, which some claim is facing imminent demise... Spoiler alert: Kyle doesn't share that view. But he DOES think that it needs to change. We look at how sales development will evolve in 2024 and beyond, discuss his SDR to 2-time-CMO journey, and examine how AI will impact sellers and increase productivity.Perhaps most importantly, we also go deep into the mindsets, routines, and strategies Kyle has used to enable his professional growth and productivity. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Kyle Coleman is a sales and Marketing leader with a passion for people development, identifying and solving problems, creating and optimizing processes, and unifying departments across the revenue org. He's currently the CMO at Copy.ai and was previously CMO at Clari. https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyletcoleman/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:39] - Role of SDRs in B2B GTM[04:47] - Strategic partnership between SDRs and AEs[07:43] - How does a junior SDR offer value to an executive? [11:20] - Qualities and skills of a good SDR[14:05] - Providing space for SDR autonomy[16:28] - Replacing SDRs with AI?[19:25] - Kyle’s mindset for professional success[24:21] - Importance of documentation[26:08] - Figuring out what to say “no” to[28:52] - Keeping calm in the face of big targets[31:43] - Daily routines and prioritization[35:32] - Benefits of being a LinkedIn creator[39:38] - Core job of a marketing leader[41:35] - Why Kyle joined Copy.ai[43:19] - Core capabilities of the platform[49:29] - Kyle’s predictions on the future of AI in GTMThanks to Our SponsorBig thanks goes out UserGems for sponsoring today’s episode. We all know running outbound is a huge pain—you need to manage a dozen different tools and data sources and it takes ton of manual work to keep it all going. UserGems solves that with one platform to capture signals and automate next steps with workflows and AI.You get a library of the most impactful signals in one place, automated playbooks to make sure your team executes consistently, and Gem AI to create personalized messaging for each prospect. So stop wasting time and start targeting your most promising buyers with less headcount. Click the link below for a special offer just for my listeners. Try UserGems Resource LinksThe only AI platform purpose-built for outcomes - Copy.ai official website Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

There comes a time in every marketing ops professional's life when they wonder if the grind of an in-house job is worth it after all. Whether it's politics, overwork, lack of resources, lack of respect, a toxic boss, or one of a million other things...it might make you think, "maybe I'd be happier as a consultant."But is the grass actually greener? What does it take to get started in consulting? Are you better off at an agency or as an independent? How do you find clients? To answer these questions (and many more), I'm joined by Lauren Aquilino and Sydney Mulligan. With over 20 years of consulting experience between us, we have a no-holds-barred discussion on the pros and cons and how to succeed. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's GuestsLauren and Sydney are co-founders of EMMIE Collective - a for-hire collective of the most sought-after independent consultants and boutique firms in the marketing ops and ops adjacent space - and co-hosts of the Pretty Funny Business podcast. https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurenaquilino/https://www.linkedin.com/in/sydneymulligan/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:08] - Origin story of EMMIE Collective [10:45] - Has the reality of the agency model met their expectations? [12:48] - Becoming an independent consultant vs. joining an agency[15:05] - The experience of transitioning from in-house to consultant[17:20] - In-house career growth limitations for technical marketing ops[18:34] - Challenges of moving from an IC to a manager[21:44] - Finding clients and financial planning as a consultant[24:16] - Layoffs pushing people into consulting[26:42] - Commercial arrangements - hourly vs. project vs. retainer[28:50] - Challenges scoping fixed bid projects[30:23] - Fractional consulting models[32:38] - How to ensure quality / consistency with a team of independents[36:57] - Client management skills and dealing with challenging clients[41:45] - The tattoo booth at MOps-ApaloozaResource LinksEMMIE Collective Official SitePretty Funny Business: The Podcast Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

B2B communities are everywhere these days. It's easy to forget that 10 years ago, it wasn't nearly so easy to connect with peers, ask for unfiltered recommendations, celebrate wins, and commiserate about dumpster fires.Mike Rizzo has made community his career - both in developing B2B customer communities and in building the top community of practice for marketing operations. In this episode, we examine how B2B companies can leverage community as part of their GTM strategy, what makes a community tick, and the inside scoop on what it took to host MOps-Apalooza. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Mike Rizzo is a career marketing operations professional passionate about community. In 2017 he also founded the growing community of MO Pros - a place where thousands of Marketing Operations Professionals connect, collaborate and help elevate the practice of Marketing Ops. He is also the co-host of the podcast called Ops Cast.https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikedrizzo/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:42] - Why start a MOPS community? [05:17] - Community is like a product[08:40] - Each community is a vibe[10:40] - Maturity of marketing ops vs. sales ops[16:37] - Lack of strategic MOPS leadership roles in the marketplace[19:13] - MOPS pros should be like product managers[21:08] - Community-led as a GTM motion[25:40] - Balancing community and economic concerns[33:22] - MOps-Apalooza[39:59] - What motivated Mike to put on the event?[42:26] - The future of marketing operationsResource Links#1 Marketing Ops Community & Private Network | MO Pros - Official site for the MO Pros communityOps Cast - The Ops Cast podcastMOps-Apalooza 2024 - Marketing Ops - Website for MOps-Apalooza 2024 Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Every B2B company has a funnel tracking process. And quite often, that process is seriously limited or broken.Leads get lost, data is inaccurate, and businesses struggle to produce insights and accurate reporting.I've seen this first hand, and so has this week's guest - Charlie Saunders. We've both spent years as consultants fixing broken funnels. In this episode, we talk about the many reasons funnel tracking goes wrong and dive deep into the architecture of the scalable solution Charlie's team has developed. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Charlie Saunders is co-founder and the Chief Revenue & Operations Officer at CS2, where he builds Revenue Growth Architecture for growth-stage B2B tech companies that powers efficient and predictable revenue growth.https://www.linkedin.com/in/charliesaunders/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:35] - Why funnel tracking matters[05:05] - How funnel metrics and attribution interact[08:21] - Key funnel metrics[10:18] - Accuracy vs. perfection in funnel tracking[14:06] - Why we can’t rely just on a Lead Status field[19:03] - Using a Salesforce custom object for funnel tracking[20:23] - Explanation of using a lifecycle campaign to bridge leads and contacts[21:01] - Should everyone start with a custom object?[26:55] - Why a custom object doesn’t need to be that intensive to implement[29:34] - Custom object impact on sales process and UX[33:25] - Tipping point = the initiation of the sales process[34:58] - Multiple tipping point types[36:14] - Different stages in the pre-pipeline section of the funnel[39:28] - Build vs. buy when considering a custom object solution[40:38] - You need a strong foundation for any funnel tracking to work[42:56] - Deeper discussion on attribution[45:47] - Significance of the the "tipping point" touchResource LinksCS2 | B2B Marketing & Revenue Operations Consulting - Official CS2 website. Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Many entrepreneurs dream of creating categories. But few have actually done it - much less built a category worth billions of dollars. Mark Organ is one of those rare few. As founding CEO of Eloqua, he pioneered marketing automation in the early 2000s, paving the way for other players and selling to Oracle for nearly $900 million. Mark and I chat through how he co-founded Eloqua, the pivots and experiments needed to achieve product-market fit, and how category creators may be wired a bit differently. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Mark Organ is the founding CEO of Eloqua (the first successful marketing automation platform) and Influitive. His greatest professional passions include creating new billion-dollar categories in technology and developing new leaders. Today he helps CEOs achieve their full potential in their businesses and their lives as the CEO of Categorynauts.https://www.linkedin.com/in/markorgan/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:05] - Founding Eloqua and marketing automation[07:47] - Origin of the lead generation playbook[10:39] - Getting to product-market fit[16:03] - Genesis of lead scoring[19:08] - Toolkit software vs. opinionated software[24:25] - Pivots and brushes with death are the norm[27:09] - When is it right to build a category?[30:14] - Building a category around an under-served hero[33:51] - Creating a category for the second time[36:42] - Challenges with churn at Influitive[41:05] - Alternatives to VC funding in SaaSResource LinksCategorynauts - Categorynauts is the leading global community of category creating leaders, helping CEOs looking to discover, develop and dominate their category. Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Historically, Product-led Growth (PLG) companies have been underserved. Marketing automation platforms, growth playbooks, reporting frameworks, and “best practices” have been largely designed around the needs of their sales-led cousins. But PLG has had a renaissance in the past few years, and all that's changed. PLG now has its own communities, methodologies, frameworks, and tools. Today's guest, Dave Rigotti, has quickly become one of the godfathers of PLG as a thought leader and co-founder of Inflection.io. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Dave Rigotti is an entrepreneur and marketing leader dedicated to furthering the B2B marketing industry. Dave was VP of Marketing at Bizible (acquired by Marketo), Director of ABM at Adobe, and now is co-founder and marketing leader at Inflection.io.https://www.linkedin.com/in/daverigotti/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:39] - What is PLG? [04:00] - Why PLG has gotten so popular recently[05:50] - Reasons Dave focused his new company on PLG[07:26] - Why sales-led software doesn’t scale for PLG [07:40] - Playbooks of top PLG companies[14:34] - Inflection’s data structure[19:12] - Opportunities and challenges of PLG ops[22:46] - Funnels, attribution, and PLG[25:31] - Scoring in PLG[26:47] - Top-down vs. bottom-up PLG motions[29:34] - Dave’s journey from startup to enterprise to startup[33:17] - Sustaining product agility as a startup[35:01] - How it feels to see Bizible not evolve after acquisition[36:06] - How to break the cycle of product stagnation as you scaleResource LinksInflection.io - Product-Led Growth Software - Official website for Inflection.io Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Martech continues to expand and shift at breakneck speed. Hot startups from five years ago have become legacy incumbents. Some platforms consolidate into monolithic suites while other categories break apart into specialized point solutions. AI looms over everything, with potential to disrupt virtually every established paradigm. Who better to guide us through this landscape than Phil Gamache, one of the humans behind the awesome Humans of Martech podcast? Join us for a deep dive into the future of Martech and a behind-the-scenes glimpse at how Phil and Jon produce their show using the latest AI tools. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Phil Gamache is on a mission to future-proof the humans behind the tech and help them have successful and happy careers in marketing. During the day, he runs all things Growth at Pelago and during the weekends you can find him behind the mic on humansofmartech.com. https://www.linkedin.com/in/gamacp/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:40] - Origin of the Humans of Martech Podcast[03:42] - Importance of soft skills in becoming a martech leader[04:33] - Growing an audience for the show[08:00] - Importance of having a specific approach for the show. Enjoying the process of learning through being a host.[11:00] - Use of AI for creating podcast imagery and transcription[17:32] - What do we consider AI-generated imagery to be? [20:30] - Point of view on martech and being platform agnostic[25:21] - Phil’s ideal stack[26:47] - Benefits of a composable CDP architecture[30:17] - Definition of composability in martech[34:27] - Challenges of troubleshooting a composable stack[38:19] - The relative recency of the cloud-first warehouse and the transition to warehouse native tech[40:22] - How much does the tech matter, in the big picture of business? [42:19] - Phil’s take on the role of AI a year from now[44:20] - Propensity modelling[49:03] - Finding balance in lifeResource LinksHumans of Martech – Future-proofing the humans behind the tech - The Humans of Martech website. Click on "episodes" to browse the huge back catalogue by topic. Midjourney - Image generator Phil uses to create the AI artwork for the showInsightface.ai - App Phil uses to incorporate photos into AI-generated photo. Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

If you're looking to transition from a technical MOPS expert to a leader - or if you're an existing MOPS leader who wants to up their game - Jessica Kao is the person to learn from.She built a career as an expert MOPS consultant before becoming an enterprise marketing ops leader. Listen to this conversation and you'll quickly see: she's ridiculously good at the business side of marketing operations. She knows how to plan, how to communicate, and how to lead. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Jessica Kao is Senior Director, Marketing Operations and Martech at Cloudflare. She has 10+ years of experience inspiring a nation of marketers through authenticity. https://www.linkedin.com/in/jesskao/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:40] - How Jessica defines the mandate of marketing ops. It is the accelerant to marketing. Everything flows through the pipes of marketing operations. [03:02] - How to determine if marketing ops is doing a good job. “Winning” means the CMO views you as a strategic partner and when you’re a bullet point in the board slide deck. But all projects should be aligned to the CMO’s initiatives and marketing KPIs. Marketing ops succeeds when the marketing team reaches its goals. [06:03] - Marketing ops shouldn’t just view themselves as the executor of another team’s strategy. Marketing ops can bring clarity, due to their position of visibility, the data we have, to spot trends, to provide feedback, etc. How do we make use of the data that we have to provide clarity to marketing leadership? [08:47] - Learning to be an internal advocate for the marketing ops team and navigating reluctance to be “self-promotional. ” The acceleration leap is the ability to translate what we do into something that provides business impact. Promoting the work we do is a by-product of bringing that clarity to the marketing team and focusing on the right things. Winning is not completing your tickets - it’s prioritization, doing the right things, providing clarity. [10:43] - The roadmapping process. Using an agile cadence, thinking of marketing technology like a product. Think about how you launch a project and create it. Quarterly planning and monthly sprints. Monthly sprints is the right fit. They have an “above the line / below the line” backlog. In a new company, shifting the balance from ad-hoc to roadmap. Being a consultant is helpful as it gives valuable skills in scoping. [13:54] - Learning to communicate incremental value instead of thinking of a project as needing to be 100% done and complete before delivering value. People get discouraged. Think of crawl/walk/run - crawling is still winning. This way people view MOPS as problem-solvers rather than blockers. Continuous delivery of incremental value. [15:46] - How to determine what should be prioritized. Jessica knows where they need to go in one, two, and three years, and that is her North Star. If you don’t have a roadmap, others will make one for you. Get buy-in from your boss and their peers. [17:23] - Translating features to stakeholder speak - what capabilities are you going to unlock. Quick-wins deliverables roadmap vs. plumbing/architecture/non-sexy roadmap. Jess has an external-facing roadmap...

Everyone is talking about how transformative AI is, but the information is still very piecemeal. There are tons of app focused listicles or cool tricks for ChatGPT, but if you're like me, you don't have time to go looking for ways to put apps to work.So I set out to take a comprehensive look at the business of marketing, breaking it down into the fundamental jobs to be done and creating practical guidance for marketers on how they might incorporate AI into their daily work in each area. This episode covers four main applications that have me excited, but if you visit the link below, you can access an Airtable base with over 35 use cases and over 40 apps. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:30] - Why make this episode[03:17] - Unstructured text analysis[05:27] - Structured data analysis[09:47] - Visual media generation[11:37] - AI and workflow automation[15:09] - AI for creative writing[17:15] - Two visions of AI usageResource LinksA Very Gentle Introduction to Large Language Models without the Hype - A useful primer to AI and large language models.

I follow the attribution software category pretty closely, and sometime in the last 6-12 months it felt like I started seeing HockeyStack everywhere in my LinkedIn feed.They have multiple team members and executives posting regularly, producing unique and engaging content, and they are building in public, sharing tons of juicy details about their GTM strategy.How did a relatively young startup come to appear so dominant so quickly? I invited HockeyStock's CRO to chat and unpack all the details. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Emir Atli is the co-founder and CRO of HockeyStack, the a B2B GTM Analytics platform. https://www.linkedin.com/in/emircatli/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:27] - Origins of HockeyStack.[02:42] - What they saw that could be disrupted in the attribution space: a platform that didn't depend on Salesforce data and that was faster to implement. People buy these tools for two reasons: proving contribution and optimizing. There is most room to innovate around optimization. [04:56] - HockeyStack's go-to-market strategy. Starting with a goal to dominate LinkedIn, with co-founders posting daily. All GTM team members are expected to post. They focus not just on brand awareness but on making marketers smarter. Each team member has their own personality which shapes the content strategy. Finding the balance between entertainment and education. [09:53] - The Flow, HockeyStack's content platform. [10:39] - Sales strategy and process. Importance of the interactive demo. Use of a virtual sales room. Taking a consultative approach to selling. Working with the buyer's pace. [15:41] - Implementation and onboarding process (typically takes two weeks).[17:10] - How to be differentiated in showing value from the product once people buy it. Emphasis on flexibility - no-code dashboard builder, not locking people into templates. [18:59] - Data cleansing and data structure. [20:10] - Using data to tell better stories. Demonstrating what's actually working. [24:51] - Definition of incrementality reporting. [26:26] - How HockeyStack positions itself against competitors. [27:55] - Flexibility of the data model and dashboarding platform. Bringing in Snowflake data. [29:18] - Incorporating self-reported attribution. How many "dark social" touchpoints actually can be tracked. [33:12] - How HockeyStack innovates rapidly on the product. Impact of being in Y-Combinator. [35:49] - Marketing Mix Modelling - what it is and how to use it. Resource LinksHockeyStack - Official Site Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Jill Rowley is a legend in SaaS, with early tenures at Salesforce and Eloqua. As one of Eloqua's first salespeople, she helped shape the category of marketing automation and was also an early pioneer of social selling. Today she is helping evangelize a new perspective on partner-led growth, which she calls "nearbound." Jill and I talk about what it was like selling cloud-based software in the early oughts, helping the first customers to use marketing automation, and what it means to go to market with partners. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest 23 years in SaaS. Early employee at Salesforce (first 100), Eloqua (#13), HubSpot Advisor (2014-2016), Marketo (2018).Loves startups, especially category creators - - in the trenches building Nearbound.https://www.linkedin.com/in/jillrowley/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:23] - Start of Jill's career at Salesforce. [03:08] - How Jill pitched SaaS in the early days of cloud software. Salesforce's guerilla marketing tactics. [04:47] - Moving to Eloqua as employee thirteen. Creating the category of marketing automation. Evangelizing for the importance of marketers on revenue. [10:05] - Early days of service partnerships at Eloqua. Co-selling with David Lewis. [11:54] - Types of service partner relationships. How there can be power-disparities and bad dynamics between smaller service partners and larger vendors. How many companies still view service partners as a source of leads rather than a way to build credibility and influence with prospects. There are bad fit partners. Need to have organized partner ecosystem data. [15:26] - Definition of nearbound. Living in market with your partners. Differences from inbound and outbound. Looking at a practical, hypothetical example: Clari and Hubspot. [20:41] - Addressing potential criticism of the partner-led approach: that it's too slow. Why you can't go to market with 1,500 partners. [24:01] - Why the value of partnerships is far more than leads. Top-down vs. bottom-up partnerships. Why both are important. [29:50] - Partner ops. Reference to Scott Brinker's article (see resource links). Resource Linksnearbound.com | The future of GTM is here - Official Nearbound website. Partner Ops: The forgotten ops that’s suddenly thriving in the ecosystem era - Scott Brinker's article on partner ops. Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Your GTM message has an incredibly difficult task: to speak to the people who will love your product and take them from a place of disinterest and zero context to a place of understanding and excitement. When done well, it’s pure magic. I think that every GTM and ops professional should be familiar with how to do this, and so I asked my old boss, Mitch Solway, to join me for a masterclass in messaging.Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Mitch Solway is a 5x VP of Marketing who has led teams at Lavalife, Freshbooks, Vidyard, and Clearfit, among others. Today he works as a Fractional CMO for startups. https://www.linkedin.com/in/mitchsolway/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:28] - How Mitch defines the hierarchy of messaging. He starts at the end, considering the outcome he’s trying to achieve. Then you can reverse engineer what you need to get to that point, starting with positioning, then copy, then messaging. [02:55] - The end result for Mitch is two stories: one broad, one narrow. The narrow story is targeted at your “Can’t Miss Customer.” This is your ideal customer. You need to understand everything about this person. Mitch calls this “Is this you?” marketing. You tell the prospect a story, and if you know them really well, your Can’t-Miss Customer will identify themselves in your message. Focusing on the person and their world vs. on your product. [04:55] - We don’t tell our customer’s story enough. We need to realize we are only 5% of the customer’s world - important to understand the other 95%. Interview your best customers, then translate those stories back to other prospects. [07:33] - The broad story. This is when you’re introducing something new to the market. You need to educate people to create a vision of an “inevitable future.” Getting the market to see the world the way you see it. Example of doing this with Vidyard using influencers to educate the market with a very low budget. [13:26] - Creating the “narrow story” for Vidyard. The litmus test for the narrow story is, can you get the person from no context to being excited in three questions. Mitch calls this the “context rollercoaster.” Examples of how this works in practices. If you can do this, you’ve found the “nerve center” that you need to touch on. [18:17] - Your product isn’t that important to the customer, most likely. Even if they use it, it’s just a fraction of their world. You need to show them that you understand their pain to spark interest. Example of why this is important in outbound. Example of how Mitch tweaked the messaging at Clearfit to better align with customer truths and how that message was conveyed in radio ads. [21:52] - Example of competing with ZipRecruiter on the radio. They had raised funds and were outspending 20:1. Mitch tweaked the messaging to turn the competitor’s strength into a weakness. [23:57] - Process for creating a messaging framework from scratch. Start with internal interviews with key stakeholders. 90% of that process is about internal alignment. For positioning, he uses April Dunford’s framework and conducts a workshop with key stakeholders. Prior to that workshop he interviews existing customers that the company wants to get more of....

Refine Labs has changed the course of B2B marketing over the past few years. Challenging conventions on attribution and funnel tracking and championing new ways of generating demand, this agency has broken pretty much every mold and driven the conversation and debate. Today we're joined by SVP of Marketing Sidney Waterfall, who produces much of the Refine Labs IP and brings together both deep demand gen and RevOps expertise. In this in-depth discussion we unpack the nitty-gritty of the Refine Labs methodology. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Sidney Waterfall is SVP of Marketing at Refine Labs, with responsibility for GTM strategy, demand generation, product marketing, product strategy, and ultimately driving revenue for Refine Labs services and products.https://www.linkedin.com/in/sidneywaterfall/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:02] - Sidney's background and how she joined Refine Labs.[02:25] - Issues in B2B marketing today. Many people still running a lead gen approach. Lack of focus on data structure and operations, although macroeconomic conditions forcing people to become more data driven. [05:19] - Defining terms - lead gen, demand gen, demand capture, demand conversion. [07:47] - More companies implementing this approach in recent years. But some still struggle with making the transition. How Refine Labs helps companies make that strategic shift. First step is accepting that buyer behavior has changed. Requires deep alignment at the leadership level. Changing measurement and KPIs, from lead generation to higher intent pipeline. This provokes terror in some. Overcoming objections. Indicators to look at. [15:22] - What it means to run a demand creation campaign and how to do it. You don't need a huge evangelist in your company. Only 20-25% of Refine Labs clients have that. It starts with the content that's on your high-value product and solutions pages. This gives the campaign strategy or angle. You take that and package it for both paid and organic. This content communicates problem awareness. You can also work with content teams, take assets like blog posts and repackage them for social. Distribute it in a buyer-centric way - un-gated, designed for the platform, unique. You need some offer in the middle, like a podcast or live event series, that people can engage with. [20:35] - Whether this approach can work for everyone. It requires a basic repeatable sales process and the ability to talk to prospects. If you don't know how to convert a buyer when they are in a sales cycle, you won't know how to create demand. [22:13] - The role of ops in a demand creation GTM strategy. Ops is pivotal. There's a strategic side and a tactical side. If ops is a strategic function in your org, you will have a powerhouse org. They need to offer not just data but insights - that's the step up there. Justin notes that ops leaders need to be revenue leaders in their own right, not just in service of others. [28:13] - How to configure systems for attribution. First step is standardized UTM values. Important to track session-based UTMs - so first touch but also tracking UTMs for each session that results in a conversion. A conversion is anytime your sales team is...

In a world where we have so much tech, it's amazing that revenue planning and forecasting remain relatively primitive in most companies. You could have literally a million dollar tech stack and yet still be creating your business plan with a spreadsheet and forecasting results with a best guess from sales. Today we look at how to go beyond the spreadsheet paradigm with the CEO of Growblocks, a revenue planning and analytics platform. We'll explore whether it's possible to have a truly predictable forecast and how operators can spot and fix issues before they become million dollar problems. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Toni is the CEO of Growblocks. He spent years as a B2B SaaS CRO and revenue operator, achieving multiple exits. Through this experience, he created a revenue operating operating model that helped his company hit targets 12 quarters in a row. This model was later on used as the basis for Growblocks.https://www.linkedin.com/in/tonihohlbein/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:33] - Toni's background. Founding Growblocks. Sharing a focus on data-driven, system-thinking approach to revenue with his co-founders. [04:27] - Most forecasting tools focus on only on the opportunity forecast, ignoring the rest of the funnel. Why there aren't more companies building software for full-funnel planning. Forecasts are split into silos. Once you forecast the full funnel, you can identify how a gap in one stage translates to revenue impact further down. [07:40] - How Toni explains this vision to the market and what benefits people are connecting with. When people finally see their actual revenue engine end-to-end for the first time, it's a huge impact. [10:09] - Flaws with the planning process today. How the planning process should take place: top-down and bottom up meeting in the middle. [14:09] - The impact of the tech bubble on the planning process and how it has distorted expectations and behaviour. You can only be efficient once you are predictable. [18:00] - The factors that lead to predictability. The first comes from understanding your sales engine as a whole through the entire funnel. Not relying on sales people that can pull rabbits from hats. The second factor is proactively spotting issues and jumping on them quickly. [21:39] - Issues with marketing and sales alignment. Why marketing will hit their number but sales misses theirs. Toni doesn't have an issue with MQLs, so long as the company splits handraisers from non-handraisers. Then marketing can't just hit their number with low-intent MQLs. [25:24] - Outbound is still alive and kicking. Think of it as the delivery mechanism for a message. Importance of choosing channels that work for your audience. Someone may not be on LinkedIn but they are listening to the radio all day. [28:32] - Starting to dive into the Growblocks platform. Growblocks works with any kind of funnel design and is also configurable across different dimensions. Solving for garbage-in-garbage-out problems. If data points are missing, it's best to go up a level and exclude that step, then circle back to it when better data is available....

What lies ahead for marketing operations? How can it become more strategic and impactful?Darrell Alfonso has spent the past ten years answering these questions through his work at companies like AWS and Indeed. He's also dedicated himself to moving the discipline of marketing ops forward as an author, teacher, speaker, and thought-leader. In this episode, he shares his vision of how marketing operations can encompass both strategy and technical expertise and describes how MOPS practitioners can level-up in their careers. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Darrell Alfonso is a 2x Marketo Champion, course instructor, Author of "The Martech Handbook", and frequent speaker and thought-leader. He's held marketing and operations leadership positions at Indeed, Amazon Web Services, Hitwise, and the American Marketing Association. https://www.linkedin.com/in/darrellalfonso/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[00:58] - Darrell's definition of marketing operations: the art and science of executing great marketing. Key pillars: planning and strategy, technology management, process design, analytics, business alignment. [02:48] - Evolution of marketing ops from being tech-centric to business-centric. [04:59] - Challenges of that evolutionary process. Potential discomfort within ops of moving into a role where they have revenue accountability. MOPS people have an allegiance to craft, but should focus on what the business needs. [07:43] - Risk of feeling powerless or misunderstood. Need for operators to better communicate our value. [09:25] - Darrell's background in communications and how it's impacted his career. The importance of communication within operations and how it's helped him grow as a leader. Internal communication is not about being self-promotional. It's about playing together effectively as a team (analogy of a sports team). [14:43] - How Darrell's role combines both strategy and operations. Strategy is the set of choices we make in service of an objective. Tactics at one level of the business become the strategy for the next level. Discussion of how this applies within Darrell's current company. [26:08] - Description of Darrell's team and how it functions. How marketing technology sits within a separate Business Systems function. [29:46] - What Darrell's ideal org structure would look like. Pros and cons of separating tech into a Business Systems group. Need for technologists to have technical leadership. Similar issue applies with SDRs and whether they report into marketing or sales. [36:25] - Building a personal brand in marketing operations. Benefits and how to do it. Difference between personal branding and cultivating an audience. Resource LinksThe Marketing Operations Handbook: A Complete Guide to Marketing Operations - Darrell referenced this book, by revenue operator Michael McKinnon, several times during the episode. Learn MoreVisit the RevOps FM Substack for our weekly newsletter: Newsletter

Benjamin Marchal is perhaps the most effective revenue operator I've ever met. We work together, and so I've been fortunate to collaborate with Ben often. I've learned a ton from studying him in action. However I wanted to go deeper into exactly how he's so effective while shouldering massive responsibility as COO of a $50 million ARR company. We go deep into his vision of operations and unpack the mindset, routines, and methodologies that help him be successful. Thanks to Our SponsorMany thanks to the sponsor of this episode - Knak. If you don't know them (you should), Knak is an amazing email and landing page builder that integrates directly with your marketing automation platform. You set the brand guidelines and then give your users a building experience that’s slick, modern and beautiful. When they’re done, everything goes to your MAP at the push of a button. What's more, it supports global teams, approval workflows, and it’s got your integrations. Click the link below to get a special offer just for my listeners. Try Knak About Today's Guest Benjamin Marchal is COO of 360Learning, a learning platform that enables companies to upskill from within by turning their experts into champions for employee, customer, and partner growth.Ben worked at McKinsey for two years before joining 360Learning, where he started as an Operations Manager and progressed to become COO in 4 years. https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjamin-marchal-89a01180/Key Topics[00:00] - Introduction[01:15] - Ben's vision of operations. Ops exists to help each team perform better today and to be ready for the future. Four key activities. 1) Source of truth for KPIs. 2) Identifying improvement areas. 3) Helping teams implement those improvements. 4) Maintaining and running the business. [02:38] - How Ops teams can balance taking requests from teams they support with proactively pursuing strategic improvements. If Ops teams don't monitor KPIs, then they are stuck in implementation mode and don't partake in strategic discussions. Conversely if they focus solely on strategy, they become disconnected from the field and fail. Both are important. [05:34] - How Ops teams can make time for reviewing KPIs. Ben looks at them first thing every morning. Creates a sense of ownership. The need to create a KPI tree (first, second, third-level metrics). Creates a clear picture of where to focus efforts. This enables strategic discussion with executives and ability to push back on requests. Importance of being fact-based, rational, agnostic. [11:24] - Ben's experience at McKinsey and how it's impacted him. Types of projects at McKinsey. The onboarding experience. [16:48] - Ben's journey at 360Learning, going from Operations Manager to COO. Development of incentives models. Working in Customer Success Ops, fixing churn. Demonstrated that applying the McKinsey model to in-house operations worked well. Began to coach the Operations team. Building the data team. Creating the business plan - demonstrated that he understood the business end-to-end, more exposure to investors and the Board. Move to COO. He isn't a functional expert in every scope, but his job is to make sure the company works on the right things. [22:19] - Ben's mindset and whether it's evolved as he's gained more responsibility. He believes the mindset has been the same. Four critical things: 1) Being low ego, agnostic. Focused on data and what it shows. 2) Being both big picture and granular at the same time. 3) Ability to cut through noise and prioritize. 4) Ability to communicate at different levels. These are all things he learned at McKinsey. [26:10] - Looking at a practical example of how Ben