Last time, we peeled back the layers on spotting sales superstars with the Glider.ai crew. Now, in Episode 248, we're rolling our sleeves up and getting our hands dirty with the nuts and bolts of their process. Chris, Corey, Aron, and Anand aren't pulling any punches as they dissect Glider.ai's assessment approach. They're asking the hard-hitting questions: Can we really stamp out hiring bias? Where's the sweet spot between tech and human intuition in sales? And what's next in the evolution of building sales dream teams? Get ready for a no-nonsense deep dive that might just flip your hiring playbook on its head and supercharge your path to market dominance. Listen to this episode EP248: "Crafting Unbeatable Sales Teams: The Competitive Edge in B2B." Catch the first part of this conversation here.

Aron Placencia and Anand Karasi from Glider.ai join Chris Beall and Corey Frank to tackle the perennial challenge of talent acquisition in sales. They're not just talking about finding "good" people – they're on the hunt for true "A players." How do you spot them? What makes them tick? And how can you build a team full of them? From the pitfalls of traditional hiring to the power of curiosity in sales, this conversation pulls no punches. Tune in as they break down Glider.ai's fresh approach to assessing and hiring top talent, and why it matters in today's cutthroat sales landscape. Listen to this episode, EP247: "Uncovering A-Players: The New Science of Sales Talent Acquisition." About Glider.ai Glider AI goes back to our CEO's humble beginnings in India. Dedication, work ethic, and a strong family network enabled Satish to find success. But he saw many others like him, equally capable, struggle and continue to struggle. This catapulted the idea of Glider into flight to create a platform helping hiring teams build their dream team and candidates land their dream job. Visit https://glider.ai.  

Helen Fanucci, CEO and Founder of Pipeline Power, continues her role as host in this illuminating conversation with Chris Beall. We're picking up where we left off, unraveling the mysteries of dormant leads and exploring their untapped potential. This episode delves into what Chris calls "Lazarus leads" - those seemingly dead opportunities that can be resurrected for massive value. As Helen astutely observes, "It's not 16 billion of value. It's 16 billion of wasted ad spend piling up." Get ready for eye-opening insights and innovative strategies that could revolutionize your approach to inbound leads, potentially doubling your Return on Ad Spend. This conversation is packed with game-changing ideas for sales leaders, CSOs, and CEOs looking to transform their sales strategy. Listen to the first half of this conversation here. Listen to all episodes featuring Helen Fanucci here.

We're shaking things up today with Helen Fanucci, CEO and Founder of Pipeline Power, taking the reins as our host. Helen engages Chris Beall in a thought-provoking exploration of dormant leads - those overlooked opportunities that could be gold mines for your business. Chris reveals a startling statistic: "91% of $18 billion is wasted" on leads that never get a conversation. This episode uncovers how this massive waste could be your next big opportunity. Helen and Chris dissect the challenges of following up on inbound leads and discuss innovative strategies to breathe life into these sleeping giants of sales potential. Some of the key points covered in part 1 of this conversation include: Definition and origin of dormant leads Statistics on conversation coverage for inbound leads Importance of quick response times to inbound leads Comparison of web form submissions vs. inbound phone calls Introduction to ConnectAndSell's Instant Response and Lead Injection features

In this episode, we get into the heart of human connection with our special guest, Stephen Oommen. From tech giants like Microsoft to the challenging streets of Oklahoma, Stephen shares how he turned adversity into a superpower of empathy and connection. Hear how personal struggles forged a unique ability to relate to anyone, anywhere. Stephen reveals his secrets for authentic engagement in a world of artificial interactions. Chris Beall unpacks the parallels between Stephen's approach and the art of cold calling, offering insights that will transform how you view sales and relationship-building. This conversation goes beyond tactics, exploring the impact of genuine curiosity and love for people in both personal and professional spheres. Prepare to be moved and inspired to reconsider how you connect with others in an age where true human interaction has become a rare and valuable commodity. Join us for this episode: EP244: The Chameleon's Secret: Revolutionizing Cold Calling and Sales

AI has the potential to revolutionize sales management by providing insights from aggregated conversations, freeing up time for managers to focus on coaching and engaging with their teams more effectively. Chris Beall and Helen Fanucci dive deeper into the evolving world of sales management in the era of AI. They explore how artificial intelligence can revolutionize coaching strategies and provide valuable insights from countless sales conversations. Helen emphasizes that "it's not enough to just give the sellers goals. The managers have to continue to be engaged to get the outcomes expected." Chris and Helen discuss the potential for AI to give managers back time to do their "real job" - identifying and executing on coaching opportunities. They touch on the emotional challenges of leadership, with Chris noting that "the higher up you go in an organization, the more you're emotionally challenged every day." This episode offers a forward-thinking look at how AI can empower sales leaders to focus on what truly matters: developing their teams and driving results in an increasingly complex business landscape. Listen to this episode: AI-Powered Coaching: The Future of Sales Management. Listen to the first part of this conversation. Listen to all episodes with Helen Fanucci as their guest. Links from this episode: Helen Fanucci on LinkedIn Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn ConnectAndSell

In this episode, Chris Beall welcomes back Helen Fanucci, founder and CEO of Pipeline Power, to explore the evolving world of sales management and AI-driven insights. Helen shares a startling statistic: "17% of the reps deliver 81% of the revenue," setting the stage for a deep dive into boosting team performance. The conversation reveals how AI, particularly ChatGPT, can revolutionize sales conversation analysis, offering quick and insightful skills assessments. Chris and Helen emphasize the importance of "getting messy with data" and how AI empowers sales managers to focus on critical aspects of their role. They discuss the shift from traditional quota-chasing to strategic market share capture, highlighting the value of early relationship-building in the sales process. This episode offers CEOs and sales leaders practical strategies to leverage AI and data for more effective sales management and market dominance. Links from this episode: Helen Fanucci on LinkedIn Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn ConnectAndSell

In this final segment with Brian Perks, Corey Frank, and Chris Beall, the conversation takes a fascinating turn into the human side of data-driven sales. They explore the delicate balance between leveraging advanced AI and maintaining genuine human connections. Brian shares insights on the power of sincerity in sales, while Chris delves into the psychology of risk in business relationships. The trio discusses the evolution of sales from mere territory management to building trust in a world where vendors can make or break careers. They touch on the importance of emotional intelligence in data interpretation and the art of restraint in using information. This episode is a must-listen for sales leaders looking to navigate the complex interplay of technology, data, and human psychology in modern sales. Join them for "The Human Element in Data-Driven Sales: Sincerity, Risk, and Trust." Listen to the full series with Brian Perks here.   Links from this episode: 5x5 Brian Perks on LinkedIn Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn ConnectAndSell

In this second episode of a visit with Chris, Corey, and guest Brian Perks they dissect the evolving landscape of data, innovation, and sales in the modern economy. They explore how utility-like standardization is reshaping industries, drawing parallels between electricity and data as foundational infrastructures. The conversation weaves through the challenges faced by innovators, the importance of reasoning in a data-rich world, and the potential for AI to enhance decision-making. Brian offers insights on the future of shared scientific innovation and data resources, while Chris and Corey tackle the complexities of avoiding reasoning errors in high-stakes business decisions. With a mix of analogies ranging from 737 pilots to Wile E. Coyote moments, the trio unpacks why clear thinking is crucial in a world where data utilities can make or break a startup. And just when you think it's all serious business talk, Chris reminds us that sometimes, all an entrepreneur really needs is for someone to walk in with a cold Alaskan amber. It's a deep dive into the world of B2B sales and data strategy that'll leave you pondering - and possibly thirsty. Join us for this episode, “Wile E. Coyote, Data Utilities and Empty Beer Bottles.” Links from this episode: 5x5 Brian Perks on LinkedIn Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn ConnectAndSell

Corey Frank and Chris Beall welcome Brian Perks from 5x5, a revolutionary data cooperative. They dive deep into the changing data landscape in sales and marketing, exploring how traditional data brokerage models are becoming obsolete. Brian shares insights on 5x5's innovative approach to data as a utility, emphasizing the importance of data standardization, accuracy, and accessibility. The conversation touches on the challenges of fragmented data across various platforms and how 5x5 aims to solve these issues. The guys discuss the concept of data as a living, evolving entity and the importance of having your copy for innovation. This episode is a must-listen for sales leaders, marketers, and entrepreneurs looking to leverage data for business growth in today's fast-paced, data-driven world. Join them for this episode, “The Evolution of Business Data Transformed From Brokers to Utilities.” Links from this episode: 5x5 Brian Perks on LinkedIn Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn ConnectAndSell

In this unique episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall flies solo to unveil the blueprint for a revolutionary concept: the selling machine. As innovation accelerates and markets expand globally, Chris argues that a systematic approach to sales is not just beneficial—it's essential. He outlines a framework that transforms the traditional go-to-market strategy, making it more efficient, scalable, and cost-effective. Hat tip to Branch 49 and Corey Frank's team. This episode is a goldmine for innovators, startup founders, and sales leaders looking to bridge the gap between groundbreaking ideas and market success. Chris breaks down the components of a selling machine, from crafting the perfect offer to scaling operations, all while emphasizing the human elements that drive results. Join Chris for this episode, "The Innovator's Guide to Building a Foolproof Selling Machine." Here's a unique gift from this episode - an outline of Chris' plan for building a sales machine. You'll have to listen to the full episode to get the details, but this gives you a way to follow along: Define the offer: Draw a circle with an arrow pointing right Identify the beneficiary (stick figure) Determine the unit of value delivered Estimate the monetary value for the beneficiary Identify the "flying car" (hard part) of the innovation: Use AI or other resources to find a solution Build a simple version to solve the core problem Address potential objections: Anticipate why conservative buyers might reject the offer Prepare answers to these objections Identify and describe all dependencies - more lines in the circle Generate a usable list of potential customers: Use available data to create a hypothetical list Sort by title and remove obvious false positives Choose a calibrated conversationalist: Use a service like Branch 49 if needed Test the message: Aim for a 5% conversion rate on cold calls Modify the message if necessary Conduct discovery meetings: Close these into reference customers Offer additional support to early adopters Scale the selling machine: Start with one conversationalist, then add a second Continue scaling to groups of eight with proper management Implement follow-up systems: Call those who don't attend scheduled meetings Set up quarterly follow-ups for those not initially interested Refine and segment lists based on interactions Involve subject matter experts (SMEs): Bring in founders or other experts after successful discovery meetings Generate more subject matter experts as needed Develop materials to transmit expertise without constant human involvement  

In this episode, Chris Beall poses a provocative question that challenges the very structure of sales departments. What if companies didn't need traditional in-house sales teams at all? Sounds radical, right? But Chris takes us on a thoughtful journey through the potential of outsourced sales. From list building to discovery calls, he explores how specialist expertise could revolutionize each step of the process. Using his experience at ConnectAndSell and citing innovative approaches from companies like Branch 49, Chris makes a case for keeping only subject matter experts in-house. He backs his ideas with real-world examples and data, showing how modern technology enables this shift. This episode might just transform how you think about sales team structure and efficiency in the modern business landscape. Join us for this episode, "Goodbye, Sales Department? Chris Beall's Provocative Proposal."

In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall challenges conventional wisdom about pre-call research in cold calling. Drawing from a recent real-world experience, Chris dives deep into the mathematics and psychology behind sales conversations. Is extensive research before each call truly beneficial, or could it hinder your team's effectiveness? Chris presents a compelling case that might surprise even seasoned sales professionals. He explores the delicate balance between being informed and being presumptuous and how this impacts your prospects' crucial emotional journey. Whether you're a sales trainer, leader, or CSO, this episode offers fresh insights that could revolutionize your approach to cold calling and discovery meetings. Chris breaks down the true goals of these interactions and provides a framework for achieving them more efficiently. Prepare to challenge your assumptions and discover a potentially game-changing perspective on pre-call research and sales strategy. Here is the math from this episode: Conversation Statistics for Chris' Team That Day: Total conversations: 438 Total meetings set: 30 Total dials: 12,522 Dial-to-connect ratio: 28.59 dials per conversation (12,522 / 438) Average conversation length: 78 seconds Research Time vs Conversation Time: Let R = research time per dial attempt Let C = average conversation time Let D = dials per conversation Research time per conversation = R * D Conversation time = C Equation: R * D : C Using the numbers provided: 3 minutes * 28.59 : 78 seconds 180 seconds * 28.59 : 78 seconds 5,146.2 seconds:  78 seconds This simplifies to approximately 66 seconds of research to achieve 1 second of conversation Chris rounds this to 90 minutes (5,400 seconds) of research to achieve 78 seconds of conversation Research to Conversation Ratio: Research time : Conversation time = 5,400 : 78 Simplified ratio ≈ 69 : 1 This means for every 69 seconds spent on research, only 1 second is spent in actual conversation. Efficiency Calculation: If a rep makes 60 dials per day: 60 dials / 28.59 dials per conversation ≈ 2.1 conversations per day Actual performance: 438 conversations / 22 reps ≈ 19.91 conversations per rep per day

In this episode, Chris Beall gives us a manufacturing-inspired blueprint for supercharging your sales pipeline. Chris breaks down the process into actionable steps, from refining your contact lists to calibrating your sales team's performance. He shares a powerful Excel technique for rapidly improving list quality and introduces the concept of "Flight Schools" to perfect those crucial first 7 seconds of cold calls.  By treating pipeline generation as a precision manufacturing process, complete with quality control measures and continuous improvement cycles, Chris offers CSOs, sales managers, and reps a systematic approach to boost conversions and minimize wasted effort. Listen to this episode, "Calibrating Your Sales Machine: Techniques for Optimizing Pipeline Generation." Listen to the full Mental Models series here.

In this episode of our Mental Models series, Chris kicks off by comparing sales processes to a manufacturing line, where quality at each step is crucial. But he quickly switches to a meatier topic: the role of "the guesser" in business decision-making. "Time is never our friend," Chris warns as he unpacks why every organization needs a designated decision-maker for those moments when the clock's ticking and information is scarce. He dives into the challenges of this role, from avoiding its use as a "political weapon" to ensuring the guesser has the trust and authority to act. Chris even draws parallels to a batter facing a pitch in the majors, illustrating the split-second nature of these decisions. Whether you're a sales leader or a professional navigating uncertain terrain, Chris's insights on decisive action in the face of uncertainty offer a fresh perspective on leadership and strategy in this episode, “Split-Second Sales: Mastering the Art of the Educated Guess.”  

In this next episode of our Mental Models series, Chris tackles two critical aspects of modern sales strategy. He begins by examining the 'do nothing' competitor - often your most formidable adversary. Chris uses vivid analogies to illustrate why prospects cling to the status quo, invoking the familiar and ominous warning that 'Winter is Coming.' He then explains how to position your solution as a complementary, hybrid approach rather than a disruptive replacement. Chris then explores how AI tools, particularly ChatGPT, revolutionize sales operations. He shares practical, step-by-step techniques for using AI to expand your target lists, refine your sales scripts, and challenge your existing mental models. Drawing from his daily use of ChatGPT, Chris offers insights on staying ahead of the curve and avoiding mental ruts. Throughout the episode, Chris examines the balance between embracing new technologies and respecting established business practices, all while focusing on improving your sales effectiveness in an ever-evolving market landscape. Join him for this episode, "Breaking the Spell of 'Do Nothing': AI Tools for the Modern Sales Warrior." Links from this episode: RightBound 5 Sentences That Will Change Your Life Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn ConnectAndSell  

In this episode of our Mental Models series, Chris dives into the crucial topic of strategic positioning and the competitive landscape. Chris dissects how to effectively align team mental models, using ConnectAndSell as a real-world example. He explores the concept of positioning against alternatives, emphasizing the importance of complementary strategies and differentiating based on customer mission achievement. This episode offers valuable insights for businesses looking to refine their market approach in an increasingly competitive landscape.

In this brief episode, Market Dominance Guys' Chris Beall introduces some intriguing ideas about the crucial role of mental models in achieving market dominance. He touches on how our biases shape these models, the importance of learning over mere execution, and even hints at a mysterious new product born from an AI collaboration. But this is just the beginning - the full exploration is yet to come. Join us next time when Chris and Corey delve deeper into reshaping mental models, aligning teams, and potentially transforming our approach to market dominance. After this glimpse, you won't want to miss the wealth of insights coming your way. 

Are you ready to sculpt your way to market dominance? In this episode, Chris Beall embarks on a solo journey to explore the art of crafting your perfect target list. He's also apologizing to you for glossing over this essential aspect of your sales strategy, and now he's determined to make things right. Just like Michelangelo's David, your ideal market is hidden within a huge block of data, waiting to be unveiled. But unlike marble, this data is more like clay - you can always add a bit back if you trim off too much. Chris will be your guide as you shape and mold your list, navigating the tricky landscape of false positives and negatives and using conversations as your tools to refine your market-dominating masterpiece. So, roll up your sleeves and get ready to get your hands dirty - it's time to uncover your own David (and no, we're not talking about the statue's abs). Join us for this episode, “Michelangelo's Market Dominance Secret for Sculpting Your List." Links from this episode: Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn ConnectAndSell

In this episode, Corey Frank and Chris Beall explore the power of conversations as the key to thriving in a future sales market increasingly clogged by AI. As digital channels become oversaturated and ineffective, the skilled rep emerges as the crucial resource, capable of navigating the uncrowded paths to success. Chris emphasizes that the robustness of results always sticks to where there is a constraint of nature, and in sales, that constraint is the skilled rep. While AI continues to congest the digital highways, there remains a parallel freeway that no one is driving on – one that can only be accessed through genuine, trust-building conversations. Corey and Chris discuss how to manufacture and curate these conversations over time, ultimately leading to market dominance by owning the digital freeway. Join them for this episode, “Navigating the AI-Clogged Digital Highway in Sales.” Links from this episode: Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn ConnectAndSell

In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank dive into how sales reps can inadvertently end up working for their competitors by blowing the trust built in the discovery call. When a prospect agrees to a meeting, they're extending trust. But if the rep rushes into a transactional mode, focusing more on their own agenda, they risk shattering that trust. Chris emphasizes that once trust is broken, it's nearly impossible to regain, and the rep may have just handed a well-educated prospect to the competition. Tune in as Chris and Corey explore how to navigate discovery calls and build lasting trust with your prospects in this episode, “Blowing the Trust: Are you working for your competitor?” Key takeaways from this episode: Blowing the trust built in a discovery call is like working for your competitor. If you rush into a transactional mode, you risk shattering the trust and handing a well-educated prospect to your competition. Trust can be built in as little as seven seconds by demonstrating tactical empathy and competence in solving the prospect's problem. However, trust can be easily lost by trying to sell too quickly. Many sales reps come from "intensity professions" where the default response to a challenge is to push harder. This can lead to reps pouncing on prospects and blowing trust. Senior management should listen to actual sales calls, not just digest boiled-down reports. Hearing the conversations can reveal issues like reps being too hurried or dismissive of prospects. Compensation plans that focus on short-term results can inadvertently encourage reps to work for the competition by blowing trust for quick wins. Modeling behavior is crucial. Managers should treat their team members in the same way they expect reps to treat prospects – not as a competition, but as collaborators. Skilled reps who can navigate the challenges of a conversation are a critical constraint. Coaching and upskilling reps to have better conversations is key. AI and automation can provide short-term gains, but without the constraint of skilled reps, these approaches can quickly saturate and become ineffective, like a clogged freeway. Conversations are the universal currency of sales. Upskilling reps to have high-value conversations is like creating a valuable commodity that can be applied across many situations. Links from this episode: Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn ConnectAndSell

You know what they say about humor in sales? It's like playing with fire. You might warm up the room or burn the whole deal down. In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Richard Rabins, Chris Beall, and Corey Frank get into the weeds about using humor across different cultures. Can you just translate your best one-liners and expect them to land in Japan or Germany? Think again. Richard has some stories about navigating the global sales landscape and is not afraid to admit where he's crashed and burned. But he also has some serious wisdom about how to build trust with prospects, no matter where they're from. Tune in to hear about the importance of noticing the little things, playing the long game, and always, always doing your homework. If you're in B2B or SaaS sales, this episode is no joke - you'll come away with some practical tips and insights that just might help you dominate your market. So what are you waiting for? Let's get into this episode, “Laughter Lost in Translation - Navigating Humor in Global Sales.”   About our Guest: Richard Rabins focuses on strategy, accelerating global growth and scaling the organization. Richard also served as CEO of SoftQuad International from 1997 to 2001, when it owned Alpha. In addition to his 30 years with the company, Richard played a key role as co-founder, and served as president and chairman of the Massachusetts Software Council (now the Massachusetts Technology Leadership Council), the largest technology trade organization in Massachusetts. Prior to founding Alpha, Richard was a project leader and consultant with Information Resources, Inc. (IRI), and a management consultant with Management Decision Systems, Inc. Richard holds a master's degree in system dynamics from the Sloan School at MIT, and a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and master's degree in control engineering from University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. He has served on the boards of Silent Systems, Legacy Technology and O3B Networks, and is co-founder of Tubifi www.tubifi.com. Links from this episode: The full series with Richard Rabins here. Richard Rabins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-rabins/ Company website: https://www.alphasoftware.com/ Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn ConnectAndSell   FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:   [00:43:33] Corey Frank: Well, you had said many, many times that outbound is about playing the [00:43:40] long game. To be good at outbound, it's about the long game. And I think part and parcel of that, Richard, is what you're talking about is, if I'm going to be immersed in this craft, in this profession, I've got to be an expert noticer of the residue. [00:43:58] Corey Frank: We always talk about the false [00:44:00] negatives that happen. And the sales that I didn't get. Not necessarily the sales I did get. What are the nuances of why I didn't get that sale? All of us, if we had a DeLorean, especially if you're in our profession. We would immediately make hundreds of stops at all the sales calls [00:44:20] we blew early in our career to right the wrongs, to tweak the pitch that we know now, and Chris, especially you and Richard, that you guys do so effortlessly, I think. [00:44:33] Corey Frank: And that concept of playing the long game , where your [00:44:40] confidence is. is accelerated by knowing that there's nobody that's going to take the hook and take me out of my profession if I don't want to. I know I'm going to be in chemistry, , the gal, the situation that you had mentioned, Richard. [00:44:57] Corey Frank: So whether it's Caltech or [00:45:00] MIT or Scottsdale Community College. I'm going to play the long game and I'm going to do an end around or a flanking. It doesn't have to be a full frontal fast track to the top.  [00:45:11] Richard Rabins: Yeah. Another thing that Chris said is, it's kind of off topic, but you can't tell somebody that you're smart [00:45:20] and on their side. [00:45:22] Richard Rabins: That's not credible. And you've got to earn it through your actions. And what I've found in life. The minute somebody's telling me about something and they use the word, trust me, that's the last person you should trust. Anybody who has to [00:45:40] enunciate that, it's, it's, it's something you've got to earn. [00:45:46] Richard Rabins: You can't tell somebody to trust you. And I speak from experience. I've been, I'm basically, I like people and I like to assume that people are good and [00:46:00] most people are, but not everybody. And just so I think with a lot of prospects for good reason initially, or there's the barrier and it's a defensive barrier. [00:46:14] Richard Rabins: And it's totally legitimate on their part. The, the art [00:46:20] of penetrating that barrier, it's not trivial. And the other thing humorous grade and whatever, whatever you're selling, you've got to do your homework, you've got to know what you're talking about, because you've got to assume that most people are pretty smart.[00:46:40]  [00:46:40] Richard Rabins: I mean, I found that from the days when I, we did market research in my first company and we were sending consumer products typically to young girls like shampoo. But the minute one of the consumer product companies try to pull a fast one [00:47:00] and start making claims that were not accurate or, or the advertising, didn't treat people with a sense of intelligence. [00:47:12] Richard Rabins: People are actually smart and people are instinctive. They pick up on BS and, [00:47:20] I mean, that's got nothing to do with humor. That's just a general observation, but I guess the lesson is you don't want to game the system. You've got to do the homework. You've got to, you've got to know about your product, especially if it's a somewhat technical product. [00:47:35] Richard Rabins: If you can't answer some core questions, it's [00:47:40] you're not respectful of the other person's time because they're not, you're not able to impart any useful information. And, and so each, if you expect somebody to talk to you again, if they got nothing out of the first call, why on earth would they want to talk to you [00:48:00] again? [00:48:00] Chris Beall: We just had one of those actually, Helen and I took a meeting. I took a meeting from a cold call on a topic that would have been of interest to both of us, given her business, Pipeline Power and the one that I run, ConnectAndSell. And so we sat next to each other kind of like this. Richard and I are going to [00:48:20] limit how far that goes, but, and and we, we were on with this very, very pleasant young guy who had been a seller for another company that I know. [00:48:31] Chris Beall: And now, he's selling for this particular company, telling us some stuff. He knew the answer to exactly zero of the questions that we [00:48:40] asked. He was very pleasant. He was personable. And he said, he'd go find out, but after the fourth, I'll go find out. It's I don't even want to hear from his boss. [00:48:48] Chris Beall: Because what it's like, why did you put somebody in the front lines who literally doesn't know anything except the simplest script about what it is that your product supposedly [00:49:00] does a little less than I could have read on the website in 11 seconds. You have it's it's a delicate dance. I mean, getting trust. [00:49:09] Chris Beall: This whole podcast is about one thing. I'll just remind everybody, gentle listeners, well, those of you who aren't so gentle, you can go over there. [00:49:20] Gentle listeners, I'll remind you, Market Dominance, this podcast is about two things. One, paving your market with trust. Two, harvesting that trust over the 12 quarters that it's going to take. [00:49:37] Chris Beall: For everybody in that market to make a [00:49:40] decision about replacing what they do now that you could help them with, with what you could help them with. That is the replacement cycle for everything in B2B is about three years. Some things longer, if you're selling commercial real estate, or you're buying office buildings medical office buildings like, Henry does.[00:50:00]  [00:50:00] Chris Beall: Anybody who wants to catch those episodes, those are good ones. Then you might have five years, six years, seven years, but it doesn't get much better than three years. You've got to play the long game, not because of some moral reason, it's because it's the only game. In the perfect scenario, only one twelfth of your [00:50:20] market is in the market this quarter. [00:50:21] Chris Beall: In the perfect scenario. That's with no false negatives. That's with no blown chances. That's the perfect scenario. So what are you going to do in the other 11 quarters? Well, you better do something this quarter, which is get somebody to trust you. And then [00:50:40] as Chris Voss said, when I asked him, how long will they trust you? [00:50:43] Chris Beall: He said forever until you blow it. So don't blow it. It's actually, this is pretty simple stuff. So the humor part of it is. It's somewhere between a technique and bedrock. [00:51:00] That is, if you're confident enough because you're studied up enough, and you're honest enough to tell somebody what's wrong with your product, which is actually the key to being seen as an expert, is to tell them what circumstance it won't work for them, honestly. [00:51:15] Chris Beall: Experts do that. Charlatans don't. You might notice [00:51:20] charlatans very rarely tell you what's gonna go bad okay, if you're studied up enough to do that, and you're humble enough to recognize that you don't know all the things even about the application of your own product, you can afford to be funny when it makes sense to be funny. [00:51:38] Chris Beall: And I [00:51:40] know that's what? I'm going to study to be funny by learning my product deeply and then getting the confidence to actually be an expert who even tells people what might not go great? Yes, that's the groundwork of being able to use humor. If you use humor from a surface perspective, as a trick, [00:52:00] as a magic trick, you will be strung up by serious people in your audience. [00:52:07] Chris Beall: They're the ones they really care about. They aren't going to go with it. And so it's, it's a delicate thing. I was at General Electric once, when I was called by a very senior person there, who just called me out of the blue and said, it was [00:52:20] Friday. Said, Chris, I'm so and so from General Electric Company. [00:52:25] Chris Beall: We've heard about your product. It was an electronic catalog for parts, like engineering parts. Heard about your product. We want to see it. Please come here Monday and present to us at 11 o'clock. This was at their headquarters [00:52:40] in Connecticut. And send somebody who can speak for your company. That's a pretty interesting thing to hear, right? [00:52:47] Chris Beall: We're a very young company, we don't have a lot of cash, we have something we've just built, how did this guy hear about it? A dumb thing to do would be to say, how did you hear about our product? Smart thing to do, it turned out, was say, yeah, [00:53:00] I'll be there, right? So now the question is, well, how does a meeting go? [00:53:04] Chris Beall: And would you dare be funny in a meeting like that? So I walk into the meeting, got my VP of sales with me, I've got my, my boss with me. And they go around the table, and these people are deadly serious. It's boom, boom, [00:53:20] boom. This is the General Electric Company, right? Mouse traps are snappin mice are dyin it's a, it's a thing that's going on, right? [00:53:28] Chris Beall: And I play right along with a very quick introduction, and then get up to do the presentation on the product. Now, what would have been [00:53:40] normal? What would they have expected that's not funny? That's a PowerPoint presentation. So I stood up and I said, Well, I have to confess something that I think is rather sad, and I'm hoping you'll forgive me. [00:53:53] Chris Beall: Now, they're not expecting that, and I said, I'm so incompetent at PowerPoint that it made no [00:54:00] sense for me to come to you with a slide presentation at all, but I did take one of your division's products, all the parts that I could find, which is about 137, 222 of them, and put them into our parts catalog so we could have a look. [00:54:17] Chris Beall: Are you interested in seeing that instead of PowerPoint? [00:54:20] Now, that is unexpected, and some of them were uncomfortable, and some of them, but a couple of them it was a little laugh, right? And then we did it. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, went through it. It was a 55 minute presentation. It was done in 37 minutes. [00:54:36] Chris Beall: And I said, well, I have to apologize to you. I don't have any more material. [00:54:40] That's it.  [00:54:42] Corey Frank: And  [00:54:42] Chris Beall: then they were like, and we did a deal on the spot, literally did a deal on the spot. It went like this. It was like, okay, which one of your divisions wants to actually take this pilot? Boom. It's you. Do it. You talk to you. [00:54:57] Chris Beall: We're done. Oh, look, we saved 9 minutes. [00:55:00] Meeting's over. They're out. Was it humor for the sake of humor? Or was it a trick? No, I was really confident that I'd change the entire world of finding parts. By the way, every time you find one of these parts, it's worth 50, 000 to the company that finds it, just for finding it, not making a new part number. [00:55:19] Chris Beall: So I knew what [00:55:20] the value was. But then later, another funny situation, years, two years later, the Corporate Counsel of the General Electric Company calls me and says, Get out here! I'm in Colorado, they're still in Connecticut. We gotta talk. Now, I wasn't going to say, Gary, what are we going to talk about? I could tell by his tone of voice, we're going to talk about something [00:55:40] serious. [00:55:41] Chris Beall: Hello again, jump in a plane. I go on the inside of the plane, so I don't really jump on the outside. It's uncomfortably cold at altitude, and, and, and, and, and, and Windy, Richard pointed out, I take you up to 7, 000 feet inside the plane, more than if you're 39, 000 like I was yesterday. [00:55:57] Chris Beall: So go out there. Now, they're, [00:56:00] it's the conference room of the General Electric Company. It's the one right under Jack Welch's office. It's huge. It's imposing. for listening. The table itself made me a little bit uncomfortable. I sat there by myself for 45 minutes. Why? Because they teach that kind of stuff, right? [00:56:16] Chris Beall: Cool your heels. Fortunately, I can entertain myself in my mind [00:56:20] easily because I do have a condition that needs to be treated. Guy walks in, sits down, starts literally pounding the table. Boom! Boom! Boom! I'm thinking, this table sounds great. I wonder where I can get a table like this. This is really, this is probably worth more than my house. [00:56:38] Chris Beall: Boom! You [00:56:40] are destroying the General Electric Company. And I said, Well, Gary, certainly there has to be some amount of, and the General Electric Company is worth a lot, right? He just looks at me, billions. There has to be some amount of money you would like to pay me so I would stop [00:57:00] destroying the General Electric Company. [00:57:02] Chris Beall: And he just sits there for a moment, and finally he cracks up laughing, and it's Okay, now we can have a real conversation. Now we're peers. Yeah. So that kind of, I don't know how you teach that, but sometimes just knowing, and the purpose isn't to do this and [00:57:20] you'll win deals. I think  [00:57:22] Corey Frank: it's those little, you've iterated those benign violations. [00:57:29] Corey Frank: that in this case provokes laughter because it was wrong, right? It could be, it clearly, it would have been unsettling, it was borderline threatening, [00:57:40] right? But it's also acceptable. I mean, it, this is like tickling or teasing or that, that little mix up or that, that, that funny thing that happens after a joke, right? [00:57:53] Corey Frank: But it's also a thin line, right? Cause I think it's, we all agree that it's easier to, right? to fail with honor than succeed, [00:58:00] right? And it's a delicate operation, which you described, both of you, where it's built on layers of shared knowledge and, and a lot of innuendo. And but you know your crowd, you know your audience, but if you do that, that benign violation, I [00:58:20] think, think, thing works. [00:58:22] Corey Frank: There is a, there's a quote I'm trying to dig up here, and I think this is it, it's from an anthropologist, Edward Hall, who I think came up in one of our episodes a while ago, because he was quoted a lot in Sapiens, and he says, I'm quoting from Edward Hall, the [00:58:40] anthropologist, If you can learn the humor of a people, and really control it. [00:58:46] Corey Frank: You know that you are also in control of nearly everything else. And we talked about this yesterday when we talked about cultural differences of selling to the [00:59:00] Japanese. Richard, you've tried, you've sold all the real differences in South Africa, certainly the differences in Europe or, or etc. And but I think what, what Edward Hall was saying is that and even the example you gave of of of the, the English coming in and negotiating [00:59:20] with Gandhi and Nehru, et cetera Richard, is that if I know that this is acceptable in a culture to laugh, poke fun, be nuanced, innuendo about, then I almost have this little unlock code, this cheat code that I'm in the know and that it's [00:59:40] okay to, to, to, to laugh at. [00:59:43] Corey Frank: So let's end with, with your final thoughts on that. [00:59:49] Richard Rabins: Well I think it's interesting, the cultural stuff is fascinating. And I think there's two [01:00:00] opposing themes. One is, I think there's some core human behavior that just has to belong to all eight billion people. But, I was mentioning last night that, in the English language, [01:00:20] the concept of somebody being responsible for something and potentially being at fault for something is well established. [01:00:29] Richard Rabins: So if there's a vase on the table, you knock over, you are at fault and you say to your host, [01:00:40] terribly sorry, I did this. Can I replace it? Or something like that. But you are at fault. In, in the Japanese language, the concept of being at fault like that doesn't exist. What they would say is the vase fell over. [01:00:56] Richard Rabins: without any assignment of who was responsible for the [01:01:00] bars falling over. And I think that probably translates into stuff that people find funny. So I guess the point is, if you are going to use humor in a different culture, say and I'd say largely, US, UK, Australia, It's, it's more similar [01:01:20] than, than different that's fine, but if if you're going to use it, say in Japan or some other place, you really have to do your homework because as you said, there's some level of risk in, if you use humor, not using humor as a straight path, it's a low risk path, [01:01:40] using humor is somewhat riskier, but also often necessary if you're trying to penetrate it's if, if you're facing a immovable brick wall, and everything else isn't working, humor, but, but you've got to, you've got to do your [01:02:00] homework. [01:02:00] Richard Rabins: Okay. and understand that it may not always work.  [01:02:05] Chris Beall: Yeah. I got a rule for you. If you're traveling, I used to do a lot of business in other places, right? India, China, Japan, Europe, all over the place. When you're in a, in another culture and every company you go [01:02:20] into is actually another culture and you're going to make fun of something, make sure you're making fun of yourself. [01:02:28] Chris Beall: Don't presume that it's safe to make fun of anything or any person. other than yourself.  [01:02:36] Corey Frank: Yeah. Other than myself or yourself. Because everywhere I go, I seem to have a [01:02:40] good traction when I make fun of you or you're talking to myself.  [01:02:44] Chris Beall: Yeah. Well, I mean, this is what it means to be a sidekick. I am your sidekick. [01:02:48] Chris Beall: You can make fun of me. That's why the kick part is in there. Otherwise I  [01:02:53] Corey Frank: thought I was the foil. I thought that's the role that I play. So  [01:02:58] Chris Beall: since we're confused about [01:03:00] our roles. I really don't know how we're going to get through this, but we hope for forgiveness from the audience and from Richard, who has to show up and have a laugh with us. [01:03:10] Corey Frank: Absolutely. Well, Richard, final thoughts on your inaugural appearance on the Market Dominance, guys, man, the wisdom. [01:03:20] The tips and it's,  [01:03:23] Richard Rabins: I've had a lot of fun just listening to this and, I think if you respect people, you like people, and you wanna engage with people, you're gonna, you're gonna [01:03:40] learn something, always gonna learn something. [01:03:42] Richard Rabins: And I, I, I certainly didn't come up with this, but whoever came up with that's why human beings were given. Two ears and one mouth and that's kind of the, probably the ratio of stuff you really got to listen to and, and everybody's [01:04:00] interesting, everybody's got a story. [01:04:01] Richard Rabins: I, I love, like when I go to a restaurant and one thing that's interesting, the waiter will come up to you and ask you how you're doing, et cetera. Invariably I'll say, I'm doing fine. Thank you. How are you doing? And it's surprising how many people are taken back [01:04:20] by that because it's not that common. [01:04:22] Richard Rabins: And it's like you, you actually asked me how I'm doing. I'm serving you. It's yeah, how are you doing? I wanna know how you're doing. And I've had wonderful conversations with them. Waiters in restaurants and stuff like that. And, [01:04:40] everything's just a learning experience. But it does come, I really like your comment about noticing. [01:04:47] Richard Rabins: It's, it's little details, can make huge differences. [01:04:57] Corey Frank: Absolutely. Well, that's, that's just great. Well, I tell you [01:05:00] what Chris, we, we could have got to get Stephen right on next, I think maybe Conan and Brian, because I really think that It is a secret weapon. As we were talking, the three of us were talking offline yesterday and today, and I think there's something to deconstruct that and putting folks folks through the [01:05:20] crucible in a safe environment about how to test it. [01:05:24] Corey Frank: And much like you gave, James Thornburg does it over and over again, till his timing is just impeccable. That's something I think we should look forward to in future Market Dominance podcasts is this how to leverage humor for for success. [01:05:40] Final thoughts to you, Chris.  [01:05:44] Chris Beall: Well, I just happen to know something about Richard, and he's not gonna confess it, so I'm just gonna say it, which is, he keeps saying he loves he likes people. [01:05:52] Chris Beall: Trust me, he likes dogs better.  [01:05:55] Richard Rabins: It's true. I mean, I'll, I'll, I'll end on, on one thing [01:06:00] is often you say to somebody what, what your end ultimate dream, what do you want to do? And if I could open up a dog shelter, I'd be in in heaven, totally. Really? Yeah. Oh,  [01:06:15] Corey Frank: That's awesome. That's great. [01:06:17] Corey Frank: That's great. I will look for that. [01:06:20] If you need any volunteers, I think I could be persuaded to do that as well. Well as long as we're in the subject of sharing, my, my, my future endeavor is to be a short order cook at a truck stop, because I like doing things like that. Chris you're, you're next. [01:06:38] Corey Frank: What's the what's the, [01:06:40] what's the, what's the dream gig? Dog shelter, short order cook, and  [01:06:45] Chris Beall: Oh, the dream gig is being a pied piper of barefoot running in Quail Creek, Arizona. If I can pull that off, I'm in heaven. All right. Fair enough. Fair enough.  [01:06:56] Corey Frank: Well, okay. Well, this has been a multi faceted, multi topic Market [01:07:00] Dominance Guys episode. [01:07:02] Corey Frank: So Richard, thank you for your time and for Chris Beall and the rest of the Market Dominance crew behind the scenes. This is Corey Frank. Until next time.  [01:07:11] Richard Rabins: Thanks a lot, Corey. 

In the second part of our conversation with Richard Rabins, CEO and Co-Founder of Alpha Software, we delve into the delicate balance of using humor effectively in sales. Chris Beall shares insights on guiding prospects through emotional transitions, from fear to trust, using the power of laughter and surprise. However, the discussion also explores the risks of pushing humor too far and the importance of knowing when to rein it in. Richard and Corey examine the idea of teaching humor, drawing parallels between sales and the world of comedy and performance. They emphasize the significance of confidence, vulnerability, and the ability to read your audience to avoid alienating prospects. Join us as we navigate the comedic conundrum of harnessing wit without crossing the line, and discover how to strike the perfect balance for building genuine relationships with prospects. About our Guest: Richard Rabins focuses on strategy, accelerating global growth and scaling the organization. Richard also served as CEO of SoftQuad International from 1997 to 2001, when it owned Alpha. In addition to his 30 years with the company, Richard played a key role as co-founder, and served as president and chairman of the Massachusetts Software Council (now the Massachusetts Technology Leadership Council), the largest technology trade organization in Massachusetts. Prior to founding Alpha, Richard was a project leader and consultant with Information Resources, Inc. (IRI), and a management consultant with Management Decision Systems, Inc. Richard holds a master's degree in system dynamics from the Sloan School at MIT, and a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and master's degree in control engineering from University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. He has served on the boards of Silent Systems, Legacy Technology and O3B Networks, and is co-founder of Tubifi www.tubifi.com. Links from this episode: Richard Rabins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-rabins/ Company website: https://www.alphasoftware.com/ Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn ConnectAndSell   FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:   [00:25:51] Corey Frank: Sure. I think you're getting into a different level of rapport building, Chris, I think it'd be a good reminder to talk about the [00:26:00] swirling blue orb and the, the reason why that works, because I think that ties in a lot of what Richard is saying here with regards to, building that, that rapport, which in essence is. [00:26:13] Corey Frank: Moving from fear to trust, is it not?  [00:26:16] Chris Beall: Right, I mean, we're always trying to help somebody along this [00:26:20] this emotional journey to a next emotional state where we can maybe help them see something new that might be of value to them. So it's always just one emotional transition. So fear to trust is one, trust to curiosity is another, curiosity to commitment is another. [00:26:38] Chris Beall: And emotional [00:26:40] transitions are tricky things. We actually prefer to hold on to our current emotional state, even if we don't like it, because it is a comfort to us To feel as we feel. We really don't want to change anything in our life, much less how we feel. So in sales, we're trying to help somebody [00:27:00] change something in their life. [00:27:01] Chris Beall: And if we cold call them, that something is, they're afraid of us. And we want to help them change that to being trusting of us, right? And it's actually why the second sentence in the breakthrough script that we teach. The one right after throwing yourself under the bus, which is raising the [00:27:20] tension, and it is surprising, to this little piece of relief, and it has the chuckle in it. [00:27:24] Chris Beall: By the way, when people laugh, other people laugh. Right? Nobody knows why you're laughing, but you laugh because others are laughing. Laughter is, as they say, contagious in the same way that yawning is, but in a way that sneezing is not. At least, we hope, right? It ain't to sneeze [00:27:40] and have everybody in the room suddenly sneeze. [00:27:42] Chris Beall: I mean, you might get a pandemic or something like that. But this, this business I know I'm an interruption. I mean, nobody expects to hear that. And, and almost nobody in sales, by the way, is confident enough to throw themselves all the way under the bus and have it [00:28:00] go ba bump, ba bump, ba bump, because buses, by the way, have that many sets of wheels, and then it backs up over you and goes ba bump, ba bump,  [00:28:07] Richard Rabins: ba  [00:28:07] Chris Beall: bump, right? [00:28:08] Chris Beall: Now you're really under the bus. And then how do you switch your voice sincerely to being playful? A playful and curious voice is what allows somebody to have that relief. [00:28:20] from your initial statement, which is you throwing yourself under the bus, which creates tension. You talk often, Corey, about tension being important in sales. [00:28:30] Chris Beall: Well, the story that starts out with, I just ambushed you, has got tension built into it, but it has more tension if you amplify it verbally. I know I'm an interruption. [00:28:40] And then you change your voice to PlayfulCuriousCat. Can I at 27 seconds tell you why I called? If you really want to see this in action, hear this in action over and over, just go out to James Thornburg's LinkedIn profile and listen to one James Thornburg video after another. [00:28:58] Chris Beall: He will often end one [00:29:00] that's really brutal. He has a recent one that has somebody at the very end just going off on him, and he has to bleep most of it out. But right before that, he does his standard, what would you say to that at the end, which is so is it okay if I end this with the joke? What do you call five coal collars at the bottom of the ocean? [00:29:19] Chris Beall: And [00:29:20] we only ever hear his side. Pause. He says, a good start. And then he goes on, right? Well, he says it, and it's really funny, because James Thornburg has great comedic timing. And he's very, very dry. He's the Stephen Wright of sales, of cold calling, right? He is a funny guy who can talk to you also about [00:29:40] slaughtering pigs, and make that seem somewhat amusing, even though that's a serious business. [00:29:44] Chris Beall: So he raises pigs. It turns out he doesn't, he doesn't go slaughter other people's pigs. He kind of sticks to his own, right? It says he and his pigs have an agreement. This is how it's going to end. I have an animal example, by the way. This one [00:30:00] back in the first days of COVID, literally the very first days, Helen, who was at Microsoft, was on a happy hour. [00:30:09] Chris Beall: They used to do this. They called them like team happy hours and everybody was introducing their pets and I was somewhere else in the room where I couldn't be seen, but it's a [00:30:20] happy hour. So alcohol is going to be involved and I'm listening and I'm just wondering where she is going to go when they come to the pet thing because Helen doesn't have any pets and what she says, I didn't anticipate. [00:30:34] Chris Beall: It was funny to me, but I managed to participate. by Pantomime. Pantomime can be pretty funny, [00:30:40] actually, if you are lucky enough to get a chance. She says, well, everybody's been showing their pets. I actually don't have, well, I actually do have an animal. He's 6 '1 goes 2' 15 and at that point I walk up with a bottle of Blanton's and pour her a shot. [00:30:57] Chris Beall: She says he fetches. And, [00:31:00] and he pours. That's funny. So he fetches and he pours became a trope joke, actually, and has run ever since then. Covid's now, that part is 3 years behind us, right? And it's still pretty funny. Fetches and pours, and that became a trope joke. kind of how I was known right up until the point where she renamed me as [00:31:20] almost a thing. [00:31:21] Chris Beall: So now I am almost a thing that fetches and pours, which makes no sense whatsoever, but is also somewhat funny. That kind of thing, it is noticing, right? What was I doing? I was noticing that this situation is evolving and I could have just not done anything, but I [00:31:40] prepped. And why did I do that? What am I selling? [00:31:42] Chris Beall: I'm selling this. a group of people that she's now not going to go to the office with, Helen, their boss. It is cool. You can hang with her. You can bring your problems to her. You, it's a tiny contribution, [00:32:00] but it had that effect, right? By the way, what can you do to develop humor? I don't know if this works for most people, but some people when they go to stand up classes to learn standup comedy. [00:32:11] Chris Beall: where you're being workshopped over and over and over and over and over, you're workshopping over and over in order to be able to respond to something. What [00:32:20] you're learning to do is to pay attention to what the other person says within the context and respond in a way that reframes so that the dialogue goes forward and it might get to somewhere funny. [00:32:32] Chris Beall: And that ability to notice, respond with reframing, and take the conversation in a direction that has a [00:32:40] positive resolution. In their case, standing up is funny, that is a good thing to practice, whether you will learn to be funny by doing it, I can't say, but I can certainly say the greatest cold callers I've ever known are people who are stand up comedians. [00:32:58] Richard Rabins: Just to add to [00:33:00] that, I had the fortune or misfortune of going to business school. And, so I get the newsletters and magazines from the school. And I noticed that they had profiled a student. [00:33:20] who had gone off and started a company and was doing really innovative, good stuff. [00:33:26] Richard Rabins: And she was talking about her experience. This was at the Sloan School, the MIT Business School. She was talking about her experience and that the best course she [00:33:40] took was apparently they started a course where the professor, is a joint professor at the business school, but also teaches drama. [00:33:53] Richard Rabins: She teaches theater drama. And so it's [00:34:00] You know, I mean, humor is, it's part of a performance. It's comedy part is a performance. Getting back to your question, which is a really practical, interesting question is, can you teach humor? I suspect you're not going to turn someone who innately doesn't have a [00:34:20] sense of humor into someone who does, but I think you can certainly, sand the edges significantly. [00:34:27] Richard Rabins: And it's, it's possible you could actually. Make progress in that area. [00:34:38] Corey Frank: Yeah, I would, I would think you [00:34:40] can with a lot of noticing practice. Like we talked about the synopsis that are broken. There's something that maybe our listeners can look at. There's a rapper by the name of, of, Harry Mack. And he was just, there's a video that you can see it on YouTube and, and TikTok and [00:35:00] Instagram. [00:35:01] Corey Frank: And he went into the New York Yankees clubhouse and he asked them for seven random words, a raid. OpeningDay, Sandwich. It's just non sequitur type of, type of words all globbed together. And he proceeded [00:35:20] to put together an M & M 50 cent level quality reduced wrap in real time. And it was incredible to the point where You know, it's not maybe our type, type of music, but the artistry and the [00:35:40] craftsmanship that went into developing the ability to see forward. [00:35:46] Corey Frank: Right? Writing a sonnet in real time. I have to see, okay, A, B, A, B, A, B, right? The iambic, pentameter, right? I have to see ahead two or three stanzas to make sure this is the right number. And I think [00:36:00] that people who are very good at it. Warren Claff, Chris, certainly you're a master at it. Other public speakers that we know with, with this persona, this confidence, they have this ability to almost have this matrix out of time process to see time in reverse. [00:36:19] Corey Frank: [00:36:20] And, I, I don't know of any other way to do that, except to put yourself out there, like you were talking about, about a good standup workshop and get your butt kicked. I'm sure. As James Thornburg has documented hundreds, if not thousands, of [00:36:40] calls in his years working with ConnectAndSell and BridgePoint, is that the latter performances are much better than the earlier performances. [00:36:52] Corey Frank: And I would bet, Richard, that you are going into a presentation today, or Chris, you going into a [00:37:00] present today, you have nothing to lose. And so you're more at ease, and you're apt, more apt to notice things that are different or unusual in the world, than if you're a newer sales rep. You're so focused on your deck, the presentation, the body language of your prospect. [00:37:18] Corey Frank: What are your What are your [00:37:20] thoughts on, on on that?  [00:37:23] Richard Rabins: I think that's a really interesting point that I keep thinking about, I keep coming back to the fact that you need to understand that the other person is a human being. And, And [00:37:40] anything that breaks the expectation so the expectation is you're going to come in there, give a PowerPoint, very formal. [00:37:50] Richard Rabins: It's not, it's not like initially a fun experience. It's not unpleasant. It's not a fun experience. But if you can, walk [00:38:00] in. And let's say, depending where you are, you look out the window and you see some mountain, you say, wow I didn't realize you guys were this close. Can you ski or whatever? [00:38:12] Richard Rabins: You immediately, you, you change the atmosphere of the room. [00:38:20] And so I do think that When you're a young, inexperienced person, you don't think you've got license to behave like a human being. You, you feel like you have to follow in a robotic fashion. And as soon as you can get rid of that sort of [00:38:40] inhibition, and, and just be more confident. [00:38:42] Richard Rabins: And, and also I think I realize that Even if it's a really important meeting or call, that if it doesn't go well, the world doesn't end. It's not the end of the world. I mean, how many times, Malcolm Gladwell [00:39:00] the author's interesting guy. So, in one of his recent books, he talks about the concept of, you can't take yourself too seriously, that there's a, a young girl. [00:39:15] Richard Rabins: Somewhere, she's in high school, she's really, really good at chemistry. She loves [00:39:20] chemistry and she's number one in her school in chemistry. And her dream is she wants to go to Caltech or MIT, to go and study chemistry. She applies, she doesn't get in. She thinks the world has just ended. And [00:39:40] but she ends up going to another school, very good school, chemistry, and does brilliantly. [00:39:45] Richard Rabins: And the reality is all the kids who go to MIT or Caltech, they were always probably number one or number two in their class. maths and physics. They come to MIT and by [00:40:00] definition, 50 percent of them have to be in the bottom half of the class. There's no avoiding it. You can't, so all of a sudden she might've gotten to MIT and there was a 50 percent chance she would be in the bottom half of the class. [00:40:16] Richard Rabins: That would do a number on her ego and her self [00:40:20] confidence. So what, what William Gladwell describes, she goes to this other school, and she's like the top student in that class, and her career blossoms because it didn't affect her, her self confidence. Firstly, the lesson there is, [00:40:40] you didn't get in, should I literally jump off the next building, or do I say, okay, Plan B, and move on, and On a more serious tone, I think they've improved this at MIT, but MIT used to have the highest suicide rate of any college [00:41:00] for exactly that reason. [00:41:02] Richard Rabins: You get these 17, 18 year old kids, their whole sense of self is tied up in how brilliant they are. And now all of a sudden there's this wet slap across the face. And in fact, When I was there, there was a building called the Green Building, the [00:41:20] tallest building, and they had to make sure that the top of the building wasn't accessible, because it was a perfect way to jump off the building. [00:41:31] Chris Beall: Wait a second. MIT engineers are capable of taking a car apart and reassembling it in your dorm room. Certainly they can get to an inaccessible part of [00:41:40] the  [00:41:40] Richard Rabins: building. That's true. Well, they, they still did in fact have. the high suicide. So there was a lot of successful, but you know, it's, it just, yeah, I think the whole thing is, if you're relaxed, I think Chris alluded to, if you're relaxed, the people around you all relax.[00:42:00]  [00:42:00] Richard Rabins: And that, that's a good thing.  [00:42:03] Chris Beall: You gotta have the goods. I mean, this is one of the, one of the things you gotta have, right? You have to be a very serious, hardworking student of whatever it is that you're an expert in. I mean, in sales, the job is pretty simple. You're an expert who is on their [00:42:20] side. [00:42:20] Chris Beall: That's it. It's hard to establish yourself as being on their side. Because people are naturally wary of somebody who says they're on their side. You can't just come out and say it. Hi, I'm an expert. I'm on your side. Now let me see if I can find a pen here so you can sign this deal, right? It's a, it [00:42:40] doesn't work like that. [00:42:41] Chris Beall: You're helping somebody come by themselves to the conclusion that you're an expert and you're on their side. Well, being on their side, you don't have to be funny. It turns out. But you're showing a little bit of vulnerability by your willingness to try to be funny. That is, you're actually going out on a limb. [00:42:58] Chris Beall: If you say something [00:43:00] that might be funny, you're exposing yourself to the criticism of why are you being funny? That's not a funny thing, right? So you're actually going a little ways toward being on their side by being willing to be funny, but you're also going a long ways to being an expert by having the confidence to be [00:43:20] funny, and those two things go together in a kind of mutually reinforcing sort of way. [00:43:27] Chris Beall: But once you get that going, you better not go too far with either one.  In our next episode, we wrap up our conversation with Richard Rabins and delve into the fascinating cultural differences in humor and how they can impact sales interactions. Join us as Chris and Corey share their dream retirement gigs and reveal a surprising fact about Richard's true passion that explains why he's such a master at connecting with others.

In this episode, the guys explore the art of ricocheting your way to sales success. Chris Beall and Corey Frank are joined by Richard Rabins, the CEO of Alpha Software, to discuss the power of humor in disarming prospects and humanizing interactions. As Richard shares his personal anecdotes about leveraging laughter to close deals, the group delves into the age-old question: can humor be taught, or is it an innate skill? While confidence plays a crucial role, the ability to notice and connect seemingly unrelated things emerges as a key aspect of effective humor in sales. So, whether you're a golden retriever enthusiast or just looking to add some lighthearted surprise to your sales arsenal, join us as we explore the art of the ricochet and learn how to turn dead leads into living, laughing, and buying customers. Join us for this episode, “Ricochet Your Way to Sales Success: The Power of Humor.” Richard Rabins focuses on strategy, accelerating global growth and scaling the organization. Richard also served as CEO of SoftQuad International from 1997 to 2001, when it owned Alpha. In addition to his 30 years with the company, Richard played a key role as co-founder, and served as president and chairman of the Massachusetts Software Council (now the Massachusetts Technology Leadership Council), the largest technology trade organization in Massachusetts. Prior to founding Alpha, Richard was a project leader and consultant with Information Resources, Inc. (IRI), and a management consultant with Management Decision Systems, Inc. Richard holds a master's degree in system dynamics from the Sloan School at MIT, and a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and master's degree in control engineering from University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. He has served on the boards of Silent Systems, Legacy Technology and O3B Networks, and is co-founder of Tubifi www.tubifi.com. Links from this episode: Richard Rabins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-rabins/ Company website: https://www.alphasoftware.com/ Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn ConnectAndSell   FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:   [00:01:04] Corey Frank: One, two, three. Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys. A Branch 49 home-based mothership version with Corey Frank. [00:01:13] Corey Frank: And of course the Sage of Sales, the Hawking of Hawking. and the Elvis of [00:01:20] EBIT. What do you think about that? The Elvis of EBIT? No? All right, we're still working on that one. And in the studio, all the way from Boston we have Richard Rabins, the CEO of Alpha Software. Richard, thanks for coming all the way to Branch 49 to have a little fun with the Market Dominance [00:01:40] guys. [00:01:40] Richard Rabins: Fantastic. Great to be here. Thanks. [00:01:45] Corey Frank: As is per custom, when Chris arrives here at the Branch 49 mothership, he gets the regalia, the full regalia of my office and as I sit here on the sales floor. So as we were talking about last night at [00:02:00] at dinner and a little bit today, that bled over. [00:02:03] Corey Frank: One of the things that came up in the GoToMarket and the Sales Market Dominance Guide Strategy Richard, with you and, , and Chris, is we were talking about different techniques in GoToMarket and the subject of, of humor came up in the subject , of Chris, I guess what we're calling [00:02:20] ricochet opportunities. [00:02:23] Corey Frank: Opportunities that I once thought were dormant, were dead. My marketing expenses has probably already been flushed. And what's some techniques I can, I can resurrect these things, maybe recoup some of the [00:02:40] costs of acquisition that I had that are creative, that certainly can be leveraged with a good message and, and a powerful weapon like ConnectAndSell. [00:02:48] Chris Beall: Well, I'll, I'll speak to this. I'll tell a story about yesterday being on the airplane. So I was coming back from Nashville. To Phoenix in order to attend the event that we were all at [00:03:00] yesterday evening, Josh Wagner of InRevenue Capital invited us to a tremendous event and there were LimitedPartners, and PortfolioCompany, now called PortCos. [00:03:13] Chris Beall: Eventually they're going to be called PCOS, but I don't know if that's really going to work so well. And we just have to keep shortening things. Finally, just [00:03:20] call them COS. But anyway, we were all going to get together there. I came back a little early, sat next to a nice, quiet woman on the airplane. [00:03:29] Chris Beall: She was writing a screenplay. And just because the pilot inadvertently said we were going to Las Vegas instead of Phoenix, which created a [00:03:40] moment of surprise, then a whole bunch of humor, as everybody told jokes about or made fun of going to Las Vegas instead of Phoenix. That broke the ice. [00:03:47] Chris Beall: She and I started talking, and at the end of that conversation, one thing led to another, and she said, Oh, now I have to be careful not to introduce you to my boss, the owner of the company, because they'll be so [00:04:00] successful with ConnectAndSell that they'll sell the company within two years and I'll lose my job. [00:04:04] Chris Beall: That's an example of a ricochet that bounced all over the place, starting with the pilot saying, Phoenix. That would be a ricochet right there because you still got to get to Phoenix, but it caused a conversation to take place with somebody [00:04:20] that otherwise would not have taken place. And I think there's a lot of examples that are available. [00:04:25] Chris Beall: I had one this morning. I was cold called by somebody. I couldn't quite recognize his name. I picked it up because it was a 206 number. And I'm waiting for a call from the Social Security Administration to tell me when I can [00:04:40] actually speak with them about something. This has been a four month process waiting to Get an appointment for a 10 minute conversation, and I knew it would be a Seattle number. [00:04:52] Chris Beall: Well, it turns out it's somebody from another company, I think Paylocity, and I encouraged him to speak with our CFO. But [00:05:00] I pointed out to them that he could do his job much more easily, possibly, by using ConnectAndSell, pushing a button and talking to people. Again, that's why we call that a boomerang, which is a kind of ricochet. [00:05:10] Chris Beall: But there's so many indirect ways, and I think in sales, we often think, Everything has to be direct, direct, direct, right to [00:05:20] I, like, why would I make a list of companies that hire people who do the job that I help with unless I'm going to talk to those people? Well, because you might want to talk to their boss. [00:05:30] Chris Beall: But to get to their boss, you might have to talk to other people. So that's another sort of a more of an IED approach to ricochets, [00:05:40] put the weapon somewhere near, and if it flips the Humvee over, then at least you can have a conversation with the scattered former inhabitants of it. So we'll talk later about how that fits in with humor. [00:05:52] Chris Beall: But to me, humor is the kind of the ultimate, always available [00:06:00] ricochet mechanism that can be used in sales if you have enough confidence. So that was kind of long, but it's a setup for what I think is kind of an unusual episode with Richard Rabins here, who is. He can introduce himself, but I'll introduce him. [00:06:14] Chris Beall: He's the CEO founder of a company that's called Alpha Software, and Alpha [00:06:20] Software is going after something you gotta ricochet for. There's a lot of paper forms out there. They turn those paper forms into mobile capable forms that even work offline and are smart enough to keep you from making the stupid mistakes. [00:06:35] Chris Beall: I have never correctly filled out a form in my life. They're probably going to ask me for the Social [00:06:40] Security Administration and fill one out. I will make a number of errors and I will wish they had Richard's software making that form because then I could do it on mobile and I wouldn't tear my head off and nail it to a coffee table, frankly. [00:06:54] Chris Beall: So that's my intro to you, Richard. What do you think? [00:06:56] Richard Rabins: Yeah, no, I think that's great. I'll dive in on, [00:07:00] on the humor, item and, we're talking offline and humor is a very powerful weapon. Obviously the person on the other side has to have a sense of humor. Otherwise the weapon's not going to work. [00:07:18] Richard Rabins: But you know, [00:07:20] what it does is when you're in sales and it's a cold call there's this natural distance that the other person's on the other side of the table, he's not on the same side of the table, and what HUMOR does is it [00:07:40] warms things up in my case. I'm a big, I love dogs. [00:07:45] Richard Rabins: So if I can, if I'm on a call with someone zoom and they're working at home and I see their dog, I'm golden because not pun intended, even if it's not a golden retriever, [00:07:58] Chris Beall: I was going to say that was a good one. [00:08:00] [00:08:00] Richard Rabins: Because that's a way of humanizing. And putting us kind of on the same level, because otherwise, if you're trying to sell to something intrinsically, your target has more power than you. (COMMERCIAL) [00:08:16] Richard Rabins: Talking about dogs is certainly one thing, but [00:08:20] using humor is, can be powerful. And I was telling you and Chris last night about one case that happened to me. That, but humor ended up being a game changer . Early on in my career, I was working for a [00:08:40] market research company and they did some very innovative stuff. [00:08:44] Richard Rabins: So if you could get an appointment with the prospect, you had enough data and evidence. That you will, you were almost guaranteed to close business, but getting the appointment in the first place was not, was non [00:09:00] trivial. And I'd started, this was not younger. And I'd started in some sort of analyst role, but was promoted to a project manager, which sounded pretty cool until I found out you actually had to, [00:09:20] kill what you wanted to eat. [00:09:21] Richard Rabins: And I knew nothing about sales. So I went to my boss at the time and told him I went. There was a popular course, maybe still around Xerox professional selling skills, which Xerox had used internally and had [00:09:40] productized. And I'd heard about this course. And I went to my boss and I said, please, can you send me to this course because I need to learn how to sell. [00:09:50] Richard Rabins: And it was a lot of money, and he was reluctant and I just nagged him. So finally, he said, if you promise [00:10:00] to get out of my office, you go to the course. I went to the course and yeah, it was useful. You learned, you should probably listen more than you should talk about a bunch of course setting stuff. [00:10:13] Richard Rabins: So my first. Sales opportunity after the course [00:10:20] got hold of a prospect and I went through the whole routine of why he should give me the meeting and all the objections handled it, perfectly, except he wouldn't give me the meeting. So at that point, I'm toast. Failure. [00:10:40] Failure. There's nothing to lose. [00:10:42] Richard Rabins: So I said to the fellow, I forgot his name, Bill, Hey Bill, I got on a level with you. So that was already caught him off guard. I've got a level with you? And he said, well, what? I said, well, and I told him the story that I'd just gone to this, [00:11:00] professional selling course. My boss didn't believe in it. [00:11:04] Richard Rabins: And, and I said, now I've got a dilemma. My dilemma is I have to get off this call, go into my boss's office and tell him that the course does not work, doesn't work. [00:11:20] And he thought that was funny. And I got the meeting and we closed the business. Because at that point, humor can really humanize it made him empathize with, with me, my situation, and versus if I had just pleaded with him and said please give [00:11:40] me the meeting, whatever, probably wouldn't have got the meeting, but humor was, it allowed me to be at the same level, and, fortunately, he thought it was funny and so that's just one example, but there's Tons and tons of examples of human Well, [00:12:00] let me ask [00:12:00] Corey Frank: Richard and Chris, I would think that a classically trained MIT schooled engineer from South Africa. [00:12:10] Corey Frank: That's not a bastion of influences that blossom into humor. So when you have it or your [00:12:20] sales reps have it, and Chris, to the larger question, is it something that's taught or is it something that. That just is, right? A lot of last borns have this irreverency gene, right? This humor gene. But Richard, if we were to come in to take your sales organization [00:12:40] and upskill them on many things, their CRM, their automation, their list strategy, their, their, their sales methodologies. [00:12:50] Corey Frank: Where would humor fit in? And Chris, how do you teach, train, where does it come from this confidence to use humor? And [00:13:00] let's, let's, let's, let's start right right there. [00:13:04] Chris Beall: Well, I've never been able to teach it, so I've given up. I am the last born, as you well know. And I also think everything's pretty damn funny, which helps if. [00:13:13] Chris Beall: You're looking at humor. I mean there's an agility of mind that's required to be [00:13:20] funny at the moment. And then there's the ability to learn a bunch of funny things and trot them out. And the former, I think, is extremely hard to teach. That agility of mind to find something funny in the moment. [00:13:33] Chris Beall: Because our minds go where our minds go. Mine happens to go mostly to puns. I reason, as I've said [00:13:40] before in this podcast, I actually reason in a solution sense by following the sounds of words rather than their meanings, because it gets me out of whatever box I'm in, because a word that sounds like another word is Very rarely gonna mean the same thing. [00:13:56] Chris Beall: And so it takes me outta my rut and I'm like everybody else. I'm in a rut and I don't [00:14:00] like being in a rut. So I like the sounds of words. In fact I won't tell you what company it is, but with Helen, folks on the podcast know I'm married to this brilliant MIT trained. Mechanical engineer who happens to have written a wonderfully famous [00:14:20] book. [00:14:20] Chris Beall: Everybody should read this book, by the way, love your team, because there's nothing funny in it, except one thing in one of the forwards. And if you can find that and send it to me, I will either send you a dollar or I won't. So anyway, we were talking about a company that's names she couldn't remember [00:14:40] just for whatever reason. [00:14:42] Chris Beall: And I finally said, well, it rhymes with what's on her face. And suddenly she could think of the person that she knows who's running that involved with that company and go, Oh, it rhymes with what's her face. And she's gotten the name right ever since. Part of which is because that's a funny thing to say. [00:14:59] Chris Beall: It rhymes with [00:15:00] what's her face. And it's very easy to remember things that surprised you, which is the essence of humor is humorous surprise, followed by relief. You're surprised, which is a negative. All surprises are considered a threat. Every surprise, good, bad, or indifferent, they're all a threat. [00:15:20] So as you talk about the croc brain, the crocodile brain, Corey, the crocodile brain always responds to a surprise. [00:15:27] Chris Beall: as a threat. Now the question is, what comes next? So if what comes next is relief, it's not a threat, that's funny. And how do we advertise that relief to the people [00:15:40] around us so that they can relax because now they're no longer threatened by the surprise? We laugh. So laughter is a way of saying it's okay. [00:15:50] Chris Beall: And that's why people like to go to catch great comedians because they get to laugh a whole bunch, which is a way of taking a pill that says it's okay. It's okay. It's okay. Oh, it's [00:16:00] okay when they know damn well very few things in their life are okay, and they're going to die relatively soon compared to what they would prefer, but laughter is the best medicine. [00:16:10] Chris Beall: Well, it's also the best kind of dodge, right? But it's always a surprise. And the problem with surprise, it's hard to teach people to be surprised because they would [00:16:20] prefer not to be a threat. So you have to be, this is why humor raises your status. Because you're willing to be surprised. And it actually fulfills the same role as, I know I'm an interruption, which is another way of dealing with being a threat. [00:16:36] Chris Beall: And nobody wants to be a threat, so very few people want to be funny. [00:16:40] It's just kind of fun, but if you can learn to overcome that, I don't know how to teach it, then you can be a [00:16:46] Corey Frank: confidence thing? I mean, Richard and Chris, is it a confidence thing? If I'm a new sales rep and I'm listening to this and I say, I have, the chairman of the board of a very, very [00:17:00] successful software company, who knows the left brain, who knows how things work, classically trained MIT, and the CEO, holder of 24, maybe 25, he's not sure, patents. [00:17:12] Corey Frank: And these aren't the exact old Abbott and Costello I want to learn from to say you should incorporate humor. But [00:17:20] after I get past that, I want to say, Should I, how do I learn it? How do I adopt it? Is, is is there, is it a confidence thing that I have to be bold enough to try things as you did, Richard, when you, when you talked about the Xerox training example with the prospector, or where should I start? [00:17:38] Corey Frank: I think I think [00:17:40] [00:17:40] Richard Rabins: it does require a good chunk of self confidence. I don't know if you can teach self confidence. I think there probably are certain techniques that can help boost your self confidence. And you also, [00:18:00] in a fundamental way, you as a human being have to realize there's some really serious things in life. [00:18:08] Richard Rabins: And most of the, most everything else is not that serious. It's not a life or death matter. And at the end of the day, we're born, [00:18:20] we live, we die. And at the end of the day, you look back at all these things that you thought was so important and so critical, and you, and you look at them and you, you, you put them in a, I think probably proper perspective. [00:18:38] Richard Rabins: So I think [00:18:40] if you go into, let's say a sales situation and you, if you are self confident and you do have, I think humor is an intrinsic capability. If you do have that capability, at least the self confidence will prevent you from suppressing it. [00:19:00] I, I gave you guys another example last night, so when I was in that same company, pitching, getting meetings, I got a meeting with J& J, big company, it was the Tylenol group. [00:19:19] Richard Rabins: And [00:19:20] I was presenting, this was actually, we'd closed a deal and this was the findings and the company I was working for at the time, they would run these simulated test markets. So they would advise. consumer product companies on whether they should [00:19:40] launch a new product, a new cat food, a new shampoo, a new form of, in this case, Tylenol. [00:19:47] Richard Rabins: And, I was pretty young, 25, and I'm presenting in this amphitheater in J& J's headquarters, probably 60 or 70 people [00:20:00] there. And the first slide comes up and there's a typo. And these guys have just spent 250, 000 on a market research project, and this 25 year old twit comes up with a typo. Again I don't know if you can teach this.[00:20:20] [00:20:21] Richard Rabins: I had to think quickly, do I pretend that the typo is not there and assume nobody's going to see it? It's like people will see it out of 60 or 70 people, they're going to see it. And so you've got to acknowledge it. You know what I did, [00:20:40] I said, we're going to start this with a test. [00:20:42] Richard Rabins: How many of you guys have spotted the typo? Now, why is that funny? I don't know why it's funny, but it's funny. And it basically took a negative, which is on a 250, 000 consulting project. There shouldn't have been a [00:21:00] typo, right? But yeah, there was a typo. And rather than let that tear you down. So again, there's a confidence issue. [00:21:10] Richard Rabins: And it's also somebody, I mean, a lot of people have said, you've got to remember everybody, when they put their clothes on, it's one leg at a [00:21:20] time. There's no getting around it. At the end of the day, we're all human beings. And if you can somehow, it, again, it's, it's no reason to accept a lower status, when it's in a sales situation, you want to keep your status [00:21:40] as much as possible on the same level. [00:21:44] Corey Frank: Interesting. I, I, I love that. I love that story. I think we were talking about the ability to notice. And, Conan and Brian, Conan O'Brien was had a podcast and he had [00:22:00] Stephen Wright, one of your favorites, Richard, on the podcast and, and what the advice that Conan O'Brien, was, was giving to other young comedians that were listening to this podcast is that you have to train your mind to notice. [00:22:18] Corey Frank: When you notice the [00:22:20] typo, you notice something that was unusual. And he, he suggests to hone in, to develop your comedic skills, is hone in and be aware of your noticing abilities. It's all about scanning, scanning, scanning. And you, ultimately the best comedians [00:22:40] Chris, I think we've talked about this, the best comedians connect things that should be connected. [00:22:45] Corey Frank: And Conan O'Brien's father made the observation as Conan was coming up into the business, father was a scientist. And he says, you're making a living in essence off of something. that [00:23:00] should probably be treated. In other words, the synopses aren't supposed to cross like that. They're not supposed to touch, but things are wrong in a beautiful way. [00:23:12] Corey Frank: And somehow you see a connection. So if you can do that and in a modest way or in a [00:23:20] humorous way, like you did about identifying the tempo, I think things are on the track to identifying humor. [00:23:27] Richard Rabins: Just talking about comedians. Some people love him, some people hate him. I happen to think Larry David is very funny. [00:23:36] Richard Rabins: And if you look at his episodes, [00:23:40] they're quite complex, the script. There's three or four things woven in together, and he ties them in together. But one thing about what he does, it's back to the notice. He picks up on just little things that people do that you notice, but you ignore. [00:24:00] And he turns them into a big deal and it's funny, but it's all based on real world observation of humans and because we're very strange creatures, very complex, very strange and intrinsically we are funny. [00:24:18] Richard Rabins: We don't necessarily mean [00:24:20] to be funny, but any observer I think the bottom line is people take themselves way too seriously. And on the other hand, if in the sales thing, if the salesperson can disarm you through humor humor [00:24:40] is generally enjoyable. And it also, as you've said, it relaxes you and it allows you then maybe to focus on or at least the conversation to focus on, hey, maybe this person has a Called me and has [00:25:00] something to offer that is valuable because there's this natural shield that goes up. [00:25:07] Richard Rabins: If you're speaking to an unknown person and it's not coming from a recommendation, the shield automatically goes up. Mm-Hmm. . So you have to use whatever weapon you can. And, [00:25:20] whether it's commenting on the guy's golden retriever, which I, I find it works every time. You can take the stiffest, coldest call for someone, very formal, and if you're lucky enough that he's working, well, maybe even in the [00:25:40] office, and he has a dog or a cat, but generally a dog. [00:25:43] Richard Rabins: You ask him it's like asking mothers about their babies. What mother doesn't want to talk about their baby,    OUTRO: In this episode, Richard and Chris explored the delicate art of wielding humor in sales. But as Chris hinted, there's a balance to strike - you can't take the funny too far. Join us next time as Corey, Richard, and Chris dive deeper into this comedic conundrum. They'll discuss the risks of overdoing it with humor and share tips for harnessing wit without alienating prospects. Until then, keep sharpening your comedic chops and ricocheting your way to sales success!

Welcome to a special episode of the Market Dominance Guys podcast, where we dive deep into the power of nurturing relationships through multiple conversations over time. In a world where many salespeople focus on quick wins and low-hanging fruit, our guests today reveal why playing the long game is the key to achieving true market dominance. Join Corey and Chris while they explore the insights of sales experts like Marc Hodgson, who shares his strategy for building a massive queue of relevant conversations, and Chris Beall, who explains how data gathered from ongoing prospect interactions becomes an appreciating asset. We'll also hear from Jim Graf on the cascading effect of conversations, Ron Brooks on the importance of mastering the art of sales dialogues, and Chris's conversation with Sushee Perumal on the art of "tapping the bells" to find the perfect fit. Whether you're a seasoned sales professional or just starting out, this episode will provide you with actionable strategies for mastering the craft of sales conversations and nurturing long-term relationships with your prospects. We hope you gain a lot of ideas from this episode, "The Conversation Queue - Nurturing Sales Relationships for Market Dominance." Episodes included in this topic-driven collection: EP199: Conversational Alchemy - Transforming Sales in the Age of Cheap Outreach EP85: When the Time Is Right, the Magic Happens EP36: Celebrating a win isn‘t anything, it‘s just preparing for the next thing. EP105: Data & Trust: Your Assets in Market Domination EP179: Conversations Over Headcount: What VCs Should be Counting EP242 - The Minding Your Business Podcast with host, Ron Brooks        

In this solo episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall explores the potential of AI-powered data analysis using ChatGPT. Chris demonstrates how this cutting-edge technology can uncover valuable insights from complex sales data in a matter of minutes, a process that would typically take a human analyst days or even weeks. By utilizing ChatGPT's Data Analyst feature and uploading data from ConnectAndSell, he's able to quickly examine the correlations between sales reps' skills and key business outcomes, Chris showcases how AI can help identify the most critical factors influencing pipeline generation and financial success. This eye-opening episode is a must-listen for CEOs, CROs, and CSOs looking to leverage the power of AI to make data-driven decisions and optimize their sales strategies. Join Chris as he delves into the future of sales analytics, revealing surprising findings that could revolutionize your approach to sales training and coaching. Join us for this episode, "Your New Data Analyst BFF Uncovers Surprising Sales Insights. Key points and timestamps from the episode: (00:01:37) Chris Beall introduces the topic of using ChatGPT to analyze sales data and uncover insights. (00:02:39) Chris shares his experience working with ChatGPT to write a book summarizing Market Dominance Guys podcasts in just two days. (00:04:20) Chris discusses using ChatGPT for a pricing exercise at ConnectAndSell, balancing customer ROI and company profit. (00:04:55) Chris explains his plan to use ChatGPT to analyze the correlation between reps' skills and business outcomes. (00:07:37) Chris walks through the process of uploading data to ChatGPT and having the AI analyze the columns and data structure. (00:08:34) ChatGPT identifies key columns relevant to the analysis, including activity metrics, conversion rates, and skill scores. (00:19:49) The correlation matrix reveals that asking for the meeting has the strongest correlation with positive outcomes, while professionalism has a surprisingly low correlation. Keep listening for the analysis results: The regression analysis shows that 24.1% of the variability in direct amounts is explained by the combined skill metrics. The breakthrough score has a significant negative coefficient, suggesting that higher breakthrough scores might be associated with lower direct amounts. Conclusion: Chris emphasizes the value of using AI for rapid, unbiased data analysis to gain insights and make data-driven decisions in sales.   FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:   [00:00:00] Susan Finch: Welcome to another session with the Market Dominance Guys, a program exploring all the high stakes speed bumps and off ramps of driving to the top of your market with our host Chris Beall from ConnectAndSell and Corey Frank from Branch49.[00:00:20]  [00:00:23] Susan Finch: In this solo episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall explores the potential of AI powered data analysis using ChatGPT. Chris demonstrates how this cutting edge technology can uncover valuable insights from complex sales data in a matter of minutes, a process that [00:00:40] would normally take a human analyst days or even weeks. [00:00:43] Susan Finch: By utilizing ChatGPT's Data Analyst feature and uploading data from ConnectAndSell, he's able to quickly examine the correlations between sales rep skills and key business outcomes. Chris showcases how AI can help identify the most critical factors influencing [00:01:00] pipeline generation. and Financial Success. [00:01:02] Susan Finch: This eye opening episode is a must listen for CEOs, CROs, and CSOs looking to leverage the power of AI to make data driven decisions and optimize their sales strategies. Join Chris as he delves into the future of sales analytics by uploading his own data and [00:01:20] feeding in complex prompts. This reveals the surprising findings that could revolutionize your approach to sales training and coaching. [00:01:27] Susan Finch: Join us for this episode, your new data analyst BFF uncovers surprising sales insights. [00:01:38] Chris Beall: Hey everybody, Chris Beall [00:01:40] here with another episode of Market Dominant Skies. My co host Corey Frank is actually in Armenia right now. And while technically I'm sure it's possible for us to co-host Market Dominant Skies Armenia and Southern Arizona at the same time. Well, let's let [00:02:00] him be. It's getting pretty late there. [00:02:01] Chris Beall: It's about 2. 35 in the afternoon here in Arizona. Intuitively, I know that's got to be very, very late in Armenia. So I want to try something today and let's see if it works. It could be a little bit tricky, because it could require following a fair amount of verbal input from [00:02:20] me, I guess output, input to you, for something that's a little bit complicated. [00:02:24] Chris Beall: But here's what I want to look at. I want to look at an example, maybe inspirational, maybe more step by step, you can use it in some way or another. to an example of how to use ChatGPT in [00:02:40] particularly to analyze some information that you might have and point the way forward, maybe give you some surprises. [00:02:48] Chris Beall: So I've been doing a fair amount of work with ChatGPT since it came out, at least since I was introduced to it. By a couple of smart young people in the backseat of a car coming back from Whistler, [00:03:00] and they were using it to do something that was kind of surprising to me, but made a lot of sense. Once I understood it better, that was to write a yearly family letter and the results were great, but it was the process that really intrigued me. [00:03:14] Chris Beall: So I decided to learn a little more about it, ended up working with ChatGPT, so to [00:03:20] speak, to write a book that summarized a bunch of market dominance guys podcasts, and I wanted to see, could you do that in a couple of days? The book wasn't great. It never got any human editing, but it was usable. You could read it and you could get something out of it. [00:03:38] Chris Beall: And two days is pretty [00:03:40] short for a book. Half a year, a year, a year and a half, two years is pretty common. So I thought that's really interesting. And it was very straightforward. As I proceeded through 2023, more and more taking time with ChatGPT to see what I could understand, [00:04:00] uh, building some scoring capabilities for reps skills on cold calling as part of that process. [00:04:07] Chris Beall: I thought, well, let's, let's just see how far we can go with this. And at one point I did a pretty. Substantial pricing exercise for the products here at ConnectAndSell, trying to balance the customer's [00:04:20] return on investment with ConnectAndSell's own profit on any given deal, at any given price point, given structure. [00:04:28] Chris Beall: And what surprised me was that it was a better analyst than any human analyst I'd ever worked with, part of which was, it was just comfortable. There's something about asking a bot to do [00:04:40] something for you that has both an impersonal quality, but kind of gives you a feeling of, I'm in control of this. [00:04:46] Chris Beall: There aren't going to be a lot of, yeah, but I'm not going to deal with a whole bunch of bias. It's going to make mistakes. I'm going to have to pay attention, but not a bad experience at all. In fact, a very, very good experience. So I thought, [00:05:00] Hey, there's a lot of things we all believe that might be subject to analysis. [00:05:05] Chris Beall: And one of them is that RepSkill in conversations is correlated with outcomes, business outcomes. So I thought I'd take a skills analysis done by a GPT 4 model using a skills [00:05:20] rubric itself written by a. GPT 4 model that was provided originally with an input of about one hour of a detailed description by an expert of exactly what needs to happen in a cold call, second by second by second, and what skills need to be demonstrated. [00:05:39] Chris Beall: So the [00:05:40] rubric was good. It's kind of long. It describes for each one of the skills that it invented, by the way. It describes what happened at sort of a zero to one point level, you know, two to three and so forth. And it was a 10 point scale. And so just ran that against a whole bunch of data that we [00:06:00] happen to have about our own reps. [00:06:02] Chris Beall: And pretty much just took the transcripts of all their conversations they had for a few weeks, put them together in, uh, in a form that the GPT. system or the GPT model could digest, apply these skills rubrics to it [00:06:20] and basically score all the reps one week at a time on these different skills. So that was something that was fairly straightforward to do, but it required a lot of, I'll call it kind of mechanics, you know, grabbing a hold of the recordings and turning them into transcripts and making pipelines of [00:06:40] data that went to processes that did X, Y, and Z. [00:06:43] Chris Beall: But once I had it, I thought, you know, I wonder, we kind of assume that these skills mean something with regard to outcomes. Why don't I take a look? So here's an analysis that was done by the ChatGPT [00:07:00] data analyst, which is one of the kinds of flavors of ChatGPT that you can get nowadays. And I'll actually read through it and tell you how long it took. [00:07:11] Chris Beall: So this entire process. It took about 12 minutes end to end once I had all the skills in an [00:07:20] Excel file. And here is my initial prompt. I said, let's analyze a collection of weekly results of the ConnectAndSell sales team's cold calls. I will upload an Excel file and walk you through what the columns mean. [00:07:33] Chris Beall: And we can then conduct a regression analysis to understand the impact of each rep's skills on [00:07:40] three business outcomes. Meeting set per prospecting hour, meeting set per week, and amount of new sales pipeline influenced directly or indirectly by those reps. Now one thing I like about ChatGPT, I don't know, I feel a little foolish liking this, but, ChatGPT. [00:07:55] Chris Beall: com Our emotions count is it comes back [00:08:00] usually with some encouragement. So it says, that's, that sounds like a great plan. Please go ahead and upload the Excel file. And we can start by reviewing the columns and the data. Once I understand the data set, we can proceed with the regression analysis to examine the effects of the rep skills on the specified business outcomes. [00:08:18] Chris Beall: So I upload away. [00:08:20] And the data analyst comes back and says, thank you for uploading the file. By the way, no analyst has ever thanked me for anything before. So this is great. Let's start by loading the data so I can understand its structure and contents. I'll check the first few rows and provide a summary of the columns. [00:08:35] Chris Beall: The dataset contains a detailed breakdown of weekly results from sales [00:08:40] representatives activities. Here are some of the key columns that might be relevant for our analysis. And then it lists the columns. The rep name. The week start date and week end date, the dials, connects and conversations, the number of meetings, the total session time, total talk time, total wait time, total wrap time.[00:09:00]  [00:09:00] Chris Beall: Those are relevant in ConnectAndSell LAN. Session time is how long we're using the system to call people. Talk time is obviously talk time. Wait time is the time between when you push a button and get a conversation. And wrap time is the time you spend wrapping up, taking notes, And setting next steps and [00:09:20] formulating your teleprompter for your next conversation. [00:09:23] Chris Beall: So then it says conversion percentage, conversion rates from dials to meetings and from conversations to meetings. Scores. There was a greeting score, an opener, breakthrough, a meeting score, an objections score, [00:09:40] and a score for assertiveness, professionalism. And there was also an overall score, which was. [00:09:45] Chris Beall: Actually weighted based on the number of conversations that got the subscores. So then it says there are also more complex fields like direct amount by stage and positive amount by stage, which seem to indicate financial [00:10:00] metrics related to sales pipeline stages. I'll stop reading here and just say that was pretty good. [00:10:07] Chris Beall: It got everything right, including the financial metrics. And I'll explain these financial metrics here in just a moment. Since we're interested in regression analysis, it goes on to understand the impact of rep [00:10:20] skills on business outcomes. We should identify which specific metrics and scores will be most relevant to use as independent variables, predictors, and dependent variables, outcomes. [00:10:31] Chris Beall: Please guide me on how you would like to proceed. Specifically, which outcomes and variables we should focus on for the analysis. Now, that was a [00:10:40] fair amount of output for a fairly small amount of input, and it sort of nailed everything. These financial metrics, by the way, are from an attribution report that we have in ConnectAndSell that looks at opportunities by stage, and opportunities [00:11:00] by how they were influenced. [00:11:01] Chris Beall: So some opportunities came about after a meeting was scheduled. Some after a positive conversation, that was the positive amount by stage, and some after any old conversation, and that's called possible amount by stage. So all of this data is in the spreadsheet. It's a very, very wide [00:11:20] spreadsheet, and it has a lot more columns in it that talk about things like. [00:11:24] Chris Beall: Which objections were the most common? How were those objections handled? And also, what was the rationale for each score? But I wanted to stick to the numbers here. So now I'm about, what, maybe 2 3 minutes into this entire process. I get this [00:11:40] set of analyses and guesses as to what the columns are. And they look pretty good. [00:11:45] Chris Beall: So I said, well, let's take a look at the columns with Amount in their name. And it said the columns in the dataset related to Amount are DirectAmount, Direct financial outcome associated with activities. This means meetings, by the way. Positive [00:12:00] amount. These are associated with positive activities. Now, GPT, the ChatGPT got that wrong. [00:12:08] Chris Beall: It said positive financial outcome. It actually was intended to mean is financial outcome from positive conversations or preceded by positive conversations. But [00:12:20] is good enough for this purpose. I didn't need to correct it. And then there's a possible amount, which is the same thing, but it's possible attribution, possible influence. [00:12:29] Chris Beall: And then it went on to say these amounts are also broken down by sales pipeline stage. So we could look at every stage and look at, say, the closed one only, or look at [00:12:40] contract through the closed one, or whatever it happens to be. Then it goes on to say these stage specific columns likely provide a more detailed breakdown of financial outcomes according to different stages in the sales process. [00:12:51] Chris Beall: Given this information. It says, by the way, this is the ChatGPT analyst. Given this information, we could analyze how [00:13:00] these financial metrics are influenced by various factors, such as the number of dials, connects, conversations, and different score metrics of the sales reps. Would you like to explore any specific relationships between these financial outcomes and other metrics in the data set? [00:13:16] Chris Beall: And I said, we will focus on [00:13:20] direct amount. As the financial outcome of interest. So that means a meeting has to be set. Well, it's really not shocking that we're gonna find a high correlation of direct amount to guess what meetings that are set. It won't be a hundred percent. 'cause not every meeting set is actually a meeting attended, and nor is [00:13:40] an opportunity created for every meeting set, although in our way of doing business at ConnectAndSell. [00:13:45] Chris Beall: We tend to create an opportunity as soon as a meeting is set, because that way we can track it more clearly. So the data analyst says, great. I love that, by the way. We'll focus on analyzing the [00:14:00] direct amount as the primary financial outcome to see how it's influenced by various factors. We can investigate its relationships with 1. [00:14:07] Chris Beall: Reps performance scores, 2. Activity metrics, such as dials, connects, conversations, and meetings. Thanks. Given the potential complexity and size of your data set, let's start by [00:14:20] exploring the correlations between direct amount and these various metrics. This will help us determine which factors might have a more significant impact on financial outcomes and are worth including in a more detailed regression analysis. [00:14:34] Chris Beall: Shall we proceed with this correlation analysis? I love that it asks. If there is [00:14:40] any specific subset of variables or additional factors you're particularly interested in, let me know. And I said, this is the easiest of the prompts. Yes. That means I'd like to proceed. It immediately outputs a correlation matrix between direct amounts and all the predictors. [00:14:59] Chris Beall: Of [00:15:00] course, every predictor maps to itself perfectly, so that correlation is one. And then there are correlations of Meetings, as an example, with outcomes and that correlation is very strong with the outcome of direct amount. Meetings correlated at a [00:15:20] 77 level. That's a high correlation and with conversations at a 59 level. [00:15:28] Chris Beall: That's not too surprising. It's really hard to set a meeting in ConnectAndSell. Unless you have a conversation first. So it doesn't say that all you really have to do is just [00:15:40] have tons of conversations, but it does say that conversations are highly correlated with meetings and meetings are highly correlated with direct amounts. [00:15:48] Chris Beall: Therefore, conversations are correlated with. DirectAmount. That's just kind of the way it goes. That correlation of conversations to direct amounts is 56. It's almost the same as [00:16:00] the correlation to meetings. So, it gave me this beautiful matrix. So, down one side it says DirectAmount. That's the answer, so to speak, what we're correlating to, that's the financial outcome. [00:16:11] Chris Beall: And then Dials, Connects, Conversations, Meetings, and then the Scores. The Greeting Score, Opener, Breakthrough. That means how well did they [00:16:20] execute the breakthrough portion of the conversation. The part that goes something like, I believe we've discovered a breakthrough. That completely eliminates the need to To do a bunch of manual analysis in order to have a detailed and comprehensive set of insights based on complex data. [00:16:38] Chris Beall: I just made that up right now, [00:16:40] but that's an example. And then meeting, which is asking for the meeting and re asking for the meeting and re asking for the meeting. Objections, objection handling, assertiveness, and professionalism, and then the overall score. So this map is red. I'm not showing it to you because we don't do that here on Market Dominance, guys, [00:17:00] but could. [00:17:01] Chris Beall: Red is the 1. 0s. That's a 100 percent correlation. Most everything's correlated to itself. And then there's sort of an orange, that's some lower level of correlation, kind of a white, which is medium level, and then it goes into the cold blues. All the way to, to a dark blue. So [00:17:20] it shows me the correlation matrix. [00:17:22] Chris Beall: I can look at it right, there is huge value in making a correlation matrix like this in Excel or some other way. I don't know if I would've done it. It's just too painful. It's too much work. This is a huge time saver, and I can look with my eyes at it and let my visual system [00:17:40] call things out that are surprising and I say, huh,  [00:17:44] Susan Finch: we'll be back in a moment after a quick break. [00:17:52] Susan Finch: ConnectAndSell. Welcome to the end of dialing as you know it. ConnectAndSell's patented technology loads your best sales folks up with 8 to [00:18:00] 10 times more live, qualified conversations every day. And when we say qualified, we're talking about really qualified. Like knowing what kind of cheese they like on their Impossible Whopper kind of qualified. [00:18:12] Susan Finch: Learn more at ConnectAndSell. com[00:18:20]  [00:18:20] Chris Beall: Here's something that's surprising. There is a very low correlation 0.05, which is almost the same as zero between how professional the reps are, professionalism and meetings, and there's also a very low correlation. Which is 03, [00:18:40] even lower, between professionalism and the direct amount of pipeline that's built through meetings. [00:18:48] Chris Beall: So I wouldn't have expected that. I don't think you would either. One would think that. A rep that is more professional, that comports themselves in a way that we would say is professional, they don't get rattled, they don't [00:19:00] have emotional responses that don't make sense, that that would be correlated with positive outcomes, and it's not. [00:19:07] Chris Beall: It's funny, though, because it's a negatively correlated with the number of connects and negatively correlated with dials, which kind of makes you think that if you have too many conversations, you might lose a little bit of your [00:19:20] professionalism, something to keep track of out there. Assertiveness was a little bit better. [00:19:26] Chris Beall: It was a 0. 28 correlation out of 1, so 28 out of 100 with the direct amount. So it's not nothing, but it's not strong. Objection handling is [00:19:40] 0. 32, a little bit better than assertiveness. But nothing to write home about. And then BreakthroughScript itself. We prize our BreakthroughScript. We think it's really fabulous. [00:19:52] Chris Beall: That adhering to it makes a difference. Well, the correlation with direct amount is 0. 17, 17 out of 100. The [00:20:00] opener also we think is super important, and yet it's correlated only 0. 12, 12 out of 100. Hmm, that's pretty low, right? Same thing with the greeting, 0. 15. So the greeting The opener and the breakthrough, which is the first kind of chunk, most of the [00:20:20] bulk of the breakthrough script and all of these reps are using our breakthrough script. [00:20:23] Chris Beall: And these are all cold calls. They don't amount to much with regard to booking meetings and therefore getting opportunities on the books that required booking meetings. The strongest correlation of all was the [00:20:40] correlation with, guess what, asking for the meeting. And then kind of insisting that the meeting is a good idea. [00:20:47] Chris Beall: That correlation is 40 out of 100. So it is approximately 2 point something times how well you do in the opener, or the greeting, or the breakthrough, and [00:21:00] it's about maybe, you know, something like 33 percent more important than objection handling. And assertiveness is vastly more important, uh, you know, more than 10 times, probably 12, 13 times more important than professionalism. [00:21:18] Chris Beall: Not that we want people to [00:21:20] be unprofessional. I'm just saying it doesn't lead to measurable results. You probably shouldn't be coaching it too hard unless you're just doing it for your own feelings. So, then, I just explained all that to you, your listener, but ChatGPT Data Analyst explained it all to me. And it [00:21:40] basically said, key observations from the heat map. [00:21:43] Chris Beall: Meetings have the strongest positive correlation with direct amount, suggesting that as the number of meetings increases, the direct financial outcomes tend to be higher. One could say, well, duh, but it feels kind of bad to say, well, duh, to a well meaning bot, right? So I'm going to say, oh, that's, that's good that you [00:22:00] saw that. [00:22:01] Chris Beall: It actually. it is kind of comforting that this obvious connection was made. Conversations and Connects also show positive correlations, though not as strong as Meetings, indicating their importance in influencing financial outcomes. Now this is important in a very simple way. You actually have [00:22:20] control if you're running an organization to some degree over how many conversations the team has. [00:22:25] Chris Beall: Your data could be better than it is right now, and it would take fewer dials to get conversations. You could use technology like ConnectAndSell that gets you more conversations. And you could also look at the reps' activities and ask, [00:22:40] is too much time being spent wrapping up or pausing or hanging out, petting the cat and drinking coffee? [00:22:47] Chris Beall: Could that time have been spent? Without abusing the rep in actual conversations. Sometimes reps have fewer conversations than they otherwise could. Jeff Blunt says one more dial. [00:23:00] We always say one more conversation here at ConnectAndSell. Then it says most of the score metrics show positive correlations. [00:23:08] Chris Beall: Those are the skills with direct amounts, but these are relatively modest. This suggests that while higher skills ratings do relate to better financial outcomes, the strength of these relationships [00:23:20] varies. So then it says, given these insights, a regression analysis focused on meetings, conversations, and perhaps some of the higher correlated scores could provide further understanding of their impact on direct amounts. [00:23:32] Chris Beall: Would you like me to proceed with a regression analysis based on these findings? Or is there any specific aspect you'd like to explore [00:23:40] further? Now, this is super important. At this point, I could go with the flow and say, yeah, that's about it. But on reflection, what I'm really interested in is. What about the skills? [00:23:52] Chris Beall: We work a lot in sales on skills. We coach skills. We don't work as much on data, [00:24:00] even though it could increase the number of conversations easily by getting better data. I mean, say all of your data was for calling was data that told you that these are people who answer the phone. Or their actual propensity to answer the phone. [00:24:15] Chris Beall: Now we actually have that data in ConnectAndSell and it's automatically integrated into every [00:24:20] calling session, but it's still one of those things that management pays less attention to than they do to skills, at least with regard to lip service. I'm not sure how much attention is actually paid to skills. [00:24:34] Chris Beall: Because I'm not sure that the breakdown of skills is actually done that cleanly. But here's what I [00:24:40] said to my friend, a ChatGPT data analyst. The correlation with meetings is actually mechanical, in that direct amount is defined as, quote, pipeline that resulted from meetings set in cold calls using ConnectAndSell. [00:24:55] Chris Beall: This is also true to a lesser degree with regard to conversations and connects. [00:25:00] Even though the score metrics, that's the skills, have a weaker correlation with direct amount, they're actually more interesting to me because the impact of skill scores on business outcomes is an unexplored research topic. [00:25:13] Chris Beall: So let's try the regression analysis with the score metrics and see what we get. Now, one of the [00:25:20] things when you're working with generative AI, and I work a lot with ChatGPT and then some other GPT 4 turbo models that we've created. is, hmm, it'll do anything you ask it to do. It'll give it a shot. This is highly different from most human employees, especially [00:25:40] analysts that you work with. [00:25:41] Chris Beall: If you say something to an analyst and they don't really agree that that's worth studying, you're not going to get their best. I love the fact that there's no complaint about rework. or delving in again, or correcting it and giving it another shot by this particular [00:26:00] bot data analyst. I think it's huge because it lets me be more creative. [00:26:04] Chris Beall: I can simply ask it to do what I want it to do, look at the results. I didn't put a lot of mental energy into the mechanics of producing the results because That's what it did. And I can be more reflective. I can think [00:26:20] more about what I'm seeing and what I'm learning. So, the data analyst here, when I said, hey, let's do the scores, it says, that makes sense. [00:26:28] Chris Beall: Ah, comfort to me. Focusing on the score metrics, the skills, to explore their impact on direct amounts will help us understand how rep skill levels influence business outcomes. Since [00:26:40] this aspect hasn't been deeply explored, it could provide valuable insights. We'll perform a multiple regression analysis using these score metrics as independent variables and direct amount as the dependent variable. [00:26:53] Chris Beall: I'll prepare the regression model and show you the results. Let's proceed. And then it goes ahead and does the analysis. [00:27:00] Now, if you're like me, you probably could do a multivariable, multivariate regression analysis. With some effort. Using Excel. I don't know how you might do it, but you could probably get it done. [00:27:17] Chris Beall: This wasn't much effort. I just said, please do it. [00:27:20] And here's what I get. The results from the regression analysis using the RepSkill scores as predictors for direct amount are as follows. Regression summary. R squared. 0. 241. That means that about 24. 1 percent of the variability in direct amount is explained by the combined score metrics. [00:27:39] Chris Beall: [00:27:40] Which indicates a moderate level of explanatory power. So this is really important, because even though skills, it turns out, are not highly correlated with outcomes, there are some things we can go after and try to make better. And 24 percent of your pipeline is a lot. So if 24 percent of the [00:28:00] variability in your pipeline, at least in this case produced from meetings, is explained by these score metrics. [00:28:05] Chris Beall: Well, okay, it might not have been super strong, but it could be worth pursuing. And then there's an adjusted R squared, adjusted for the number of predictors. And it indicates after accounting for the [00:28:20] number of variables, the model explains about 18 percent of the variance. So less than 24%, still not zero. [00:28:28] Chris Beall: And think of it this way. If there is potential variance in the pipeline from 1, 000, 000 to 1. 18 million, or [00:28:40] some number like that, the skills could actually influence your ability to get that extra 180, 000 of pipeline. So these are not locks, by the way, because we really don't have cause and effect here yet. [00:28:51] Chris Beall: We have correlation, but worth knowing. And then it gives me the individual coefficients, [00:29:00] and the individual coefficients They tell you how statistically predictable these predictors are, that is, how wrong they are. So it says the greeting, opener, objections, assertiveness, and overall score are not statistically significant predictors of direct amount, as their p values are [00:29:20] greater than 0. [00:29:21] Chris Beall: 05. That is, the p value means probability of the variance just due to Randomness. So, would you get the same thing over and over and over, or would it spread all over the place, so the p value is basically, say, percentage due to chance, eh, kind of high. The score [00:29:40] breakthrough, the breakthrough score has, get this, a significant negative coefficient. [00:29:45] Chris Beall: with a p value of 043, suggesting that higher breakthrough scores might actually be associated with lower direct amounts, which is an interesting and possibly counterintuitive finding. Now this is the analyst, [00:30:00] the GPT analyst, telling me that this is interesting and possibly counterintuitive. So if you kind of think about that. [00:30:07] Chris Beall: That's pretty amazing that a bot that just knows how to spit out next tokens and next, effectively, words, would conclude that this is an [00:30:20] interesting and possibly counterintuitive finding. So I find it counterintuitive also, especially since I'm Kind of one of the people who came up with the breakthrough script. [00:30:30] Chris Beall: And I would think following the breakthrough well would be a good thing, but maybe not, or maybe it's only in the case where you're trying [00:30:40] to follow the breakthrough and you fail that that's a good thing. So again, we don't know, but it pointed that out. The analysts pointed that out. The meeting score. [00:30:49] Chris Beall: This score has a significant positive coefficient with a p value less than 001, it's a really small chance that it's due to chance, indicating a strong [00:31:00] positive impact on direct amount. This suggests that skills in securing meetings are crucial for achieving higher financial outcomes. Well, in one way, that's well dubbed because if you don't ask for the meeting, you don't get the meeting. [00:31:12] Chris Beall: But in another way, it tells you, hey, if you're going to coach something, go coach that, asking for the meeting. That would, in sales [00:31:20] in general, be considered to be coaching for closing. There's whole books on this subject, but I think it's particularly interesting that the mathematical analysis says it's kind of where it's at. [00:31:30] Chris Beall: And then the last one is professionalism, which also shows a negative coefficient. and p value close to the threshold for statistical significance, [00:31:40] suggesting a possible negative impact on direct amount. So, then it gives me an interpretation. We're almost done. I hope that this was tolerable for you to listen to all this, but I thought it might be interesting because I'm going to go back and just go through the prompts and tell you how long this took. [00:31:57] Chris Beall: I don't think I could have done this kind of work if I'd been [00:32:00] left alone for a day, and I wouldn't have trusted the results. I would have had to go back and check them. More than once. And then also, if I presented them to somebody else, they surely wouldn't have trusted the results because they go, hey, Chris, these are your results. [00:32:15] Chris Beall: So, here's the interpretation. The most influential skills based on this model are [00:32:20] related to handling meetings, that is, asking for the meeting, and breakthrough moments in calls. With meeting skills being particularly critical for financial success. So, interestingly, one was positive and the other was negative. [00:32:34] Chris Beall: This analysis suggests a selective impact of different skill areas on [00:32:40] financial outcomes, highlighting the importance of specific training and development focuses for sales reps. So now it asks me, would you like to delve deeper into any specific aspect of these results, explore other models, or adjust the analysis in any other way? [00:32:55] Chris Beall: And I'm going to do a live demo right here, and I'm just going to add a prompt. [00:33:00] Let's consider The impact on another financial metric, which is possible. Now, I'm testing it here to see if it can figure out that possible means possible amount. It does a great job. It says we will now analyze the impact of the REPS skill scores on another [00:33:20] financial metric, possible amount. [00:33:21] Chris Beall: Possible amount means some conversation took place, and later, [00:33:30] Chris Beall: So, what happens here? Interestingly enough, even if the conversation did not [00:33:40] lead to a meeting, you have the same correlations of the skills, the greeting, the opener, the objections, the assertiveness and professionalism to the outcomes, which is pretty much nothing compared to what Except for one thing, [00:34:00] professionalism has a strong negative impact on possible amount. [00:34:03] Chris Beall: Now think about that. Isn't that just fascinating? That you can be more professional and maybe you sound a little stiffer. Maybe you're harder to trust. Anyway, it's a strong negative impact on the possible amount and on the [00:34:20] amount directly from meetings. So I think that's quite fascinating, and the breakthrough score is still negative, but it's not as strong as professionalism, and the meeting score, asking for the meeting, has a positive coefficient on the overall amount, that is, whether it's from a meeting or not. [00:34:39] Chris Beall: Now, [00:34:40] we have to have a little bit of warning here. When you're looking at results from any analysis, whether this kind done by a GPT model or done by hand, By an analyst, you have to be careful of certain things. So this particular analysis has a flaw in it. And the flaw is a kind of selection bias, and that is [00:35:00] the overall metric, which is, Hey, did you get anything in the pipeline at all? [00:35:06] Chris Beall: Includes the metric from the meetings. That is, from the direct attribution from a meeting leading to the pipeline. So what I should really do is subtract out the, [00:35:20] uh, the pipeline that was generated from meetings and make sure that it's not being included. And I could go ahead and do that even without reloading the spreadsheet. [00:35:29] Chris Beall: I could ask the analyst to make up a new metric that subtracts the possible.[00:35:40]  [00:35:46] Chris Beall: So again, I'm going to recap the purpose in this whole exercise. The reason I'm doing this is just to show you that there are deep insights, or at least interesting insights that can be gotten much more rapidly than you might think. And I [00:36:00] think in a more compelling way, it's easier to think about because you didn't wear yourself out on the mechanics of the analysis, and you didn't end up with the biases of your data analyst and just using a GPT model, like ChatGPT, and I recommend that the GPT 4 Turbo Model Data Analyst, just because I'm using it here. [00:36:19] Chris Beall: I'm sure [00:36:20] there are others that are Equally good, and perhaps better, but using that in a simple way by loading up some data and then telling it what you're trying to do. As I said, let's analyze a collection of these results and look for a regression analysis to understand the impact of skills. On business outcomes [00:36:40] and just be guided by the response of the GPT model. [00:36:44] Chris Beall: It comes back and says something, you ask another prompt and away you go. This entire process for me, the first time, I think, took 12 minutes. It would have taken me about a week. I get one pretty picture out of it, which is a correlation matrix, which I [00:37:00] can share with people. I get an analysis that I can share with a little copy and paste. [00:37:06] Chris Beall: I got some, I can't do this because the file has gotten stale. So I reloaded the file and did it again. The whole analysis again, I didn't even have to tell it what to do other than let's switch over to the possible amount from [00:37:20] direct amount. So, I hope this is somewhat enlightening. The main thing I want to do is, I want to encourage folks to use these large language models as their partner in reasoning through business situations and understanding them without relying [00:37:40] On a human analyst, you might take you a day, two days, five days, or forever to come back with results and may be injecting their own bias, either through selection bias or survivorship bias or something else. [00:37:54] Chris Beall: And you can avoid a lot of arguments this way, get yourself some insights, and [00:38:00] then they're packaged up nicely so you can discuss them with others. So a very different episode of Market Dominance, guys, but hey. We believe in data here and unanalyzed data. Well, it's kind of like an unexamined life. Is it worth living? [00:38:15] Chris Beall: We don't know, but unexamined data or unanalyzed [00:38:20] data generally is not worth very much. So for Corey Frank, Enjoying Armenia and Chris Beall, this is Market Dominance, guys. [00:38:37] Susan Finch: Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, [00:38:40] investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it's time to really go big, you need to use an uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ successful sequencing that is fresh enough to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. [00:38:56] Susan Finch: From crafting just the right cold call screenplays, to curating and mapping [00:39:00] the ideal call list for your entire TAM, Branch49's modern and innovative sales toolbox offers a guiding hand to ambitious organizations in their quest to reach market dominance. Learn more at branch49. com. Never miss an episode. [00:39:19] Susan Finch: Go to any of your [00:39:20] favorite podcast venues and search for Market Dominance Guys, or go to market dominance guys. com and subscribe.

Welcome to this special Market Dominance Guys compilation episode featuring highlights from some of our most downloaded episodes in the first quarter of 2024. In these segments, Chris Beall and Corey Frank are joined by expert guests Shane Mahi and Helen Fanucci to explore critical topics for sales and marketing leaders navigating the evolving landscape of go-to-market strategies, data-driven targeting, and the impact of AI on authentic human connection. You'll hear eye-opening insights on the future of software development in the age of generative AI, why conversations are the often-overlooked key to unlocking your total addressable market, and how to coach reps effectively by providing immediate feedback. Helen shares her framework for leveraging proprietary data to identify your best opportunities and align resources accordingly. The discussions also examine the challenges of territory assignment and the power dynamics of sales leadership. Shane and our hosts dive into balancing the power of AI tools like ChatGPT with the irreplaceable value of genuine, trust-building conversations. And you won't want to miss Shane's story of how combining the entrepreneurial operating system with AI helped him rebuild his business in record time after previous setbacks. These clips from Chris, Corey, Shane, and Helen will help you learn how to position your organization for market dominance through the right mix of data-driven strategy, technological leverage, and authentic human engagement.    Links from this episode: Shane Mahi on LinkedIn MEGA.ai Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn ConnectAndSell Helen Fanucci on LinkedIn Full episodes for this segment: #10: EP215: Sales Artisans: Thriving Alongside Smart Bots #9: EP216: Conversations, The Kryptonite of MarTech? #8: EP213: Ethical AI Selling - Reality vs Hype #7: EP208: Balancing Relationships and Efficiency in AI Sales #6: EP209: Your Only Product Is the Meeting #5: EP214: The Future of Sales: Balancing AI and Authenticity #4: EP212: Reps Dread It, Managers Avoid It: Coaching #3: EP211: Conversations Convert to Pipeline Power #2: EP210: Sales Targeting Beyond LinkedIn and Navigator #1: EP145: Building Trust Must Always Be Step One   FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:   #10: EP215: Sales Artisans: Thriving Alongside Smart Bots The economy always gets reshaped around new capabilities in ways that surprise everybody who is thinking about it. So it's never like that. This is going up and this is going down and it crosses or whatever. It goes along as it goes along with increasing efficiencies in certain areas until somebody innovates a flip and the flip turns it on its head and now it's new, whatever the new thing is, and now you have the old way competing with the new way and the new way since it's enabled by new material science. By that I mean a new capability that does tricks you couldn't do before. It always wins, but it always starts where it has the obvious advantage. The skyscrapers are not out in the desert, they're in Manhattan. It depends where you look, but once you get 'em going in Manhattan, I pretty much guarantee you the little three story building that you used to have that you had some offices in or whatever. First the offices go, then the condos and it's all skyscrapers. Take a look at New York. It's all up, right? Take a look at Des Moines. It's a little up. Take a look at Scottsdale or Tenny. It's just how it goes. Shane Mahi (01:09:35): You can even see in Dubai, Dubai was what? Flatland desert. DJ Khalifa Burj Khallifa  is the biggest one up. And now, I don't know if you guys are familiar with the line in Saudi Arabia, same kind of concept, complete desert. Now there's what, a quarter mile long, two pieces of glass inside a metropolis that is going to be heavily tech-orientated, flying cars, all kinds of weirdness. So if Saudi's doing stuff like that, at what point do the outbound agencies or even tech companies realize we've got to kind of adopt the same kind of thing? Chris Beall (01:10:08): For sure. Shane Mahi (01:10:08): Who is that going to be? Chris, Chris and Corey. Who do you guys have your eyes out on in those markets who are going to be those game changers, those market shapers for AI and tech in our space? Chris Beall (01:10:22): Who I don't know. I don't know and I don't care. I don't know and I don't care. I know who the big early winner is going to be with ai. This is actually fairly simple. Microsoft pulled off a trick that nobody even thought of and that trick was to invest 10 billion to get an unlimited royalty free forever license to not only the tech, but all the learning that goes into it, all the training. That was a very good trick because they've always been in the business of helping folks build new things. And the most obvious thing about all this gen AI stuff isn't what it does to sales, which is trivial. It's what it does to what used to be called software development. Software development essentially is in the same state right now as a sugar cube is in a hot cup of tea. You can be pretty sure that game is over right now. #9: EP216: Conversations, The Kryptonite of MarTech? Yeah. Is there a natural aversion to that or is it just Occam's razor where it's too simple? Or they're going about a complex formula, methodology, and technology pathway. When you forget to dance with who you are, what are my prospects? What are my people in my TAM saying, what are the people in my ICP? What do they want? What pain do I solve? And gosh, if I could just have a conversation, not send them a survey, not send them an email, but actually have a conversation that can open up these veins of trust that that's the key versus carpet bombing them with content, with white papers, with Gartner magic quadrants, and there's no dialogue there. That's monologue, Chris Beall (15:20): Right? This is kind of the awkwardness that I noticed in the entire thing. I'd asked this question, what if you could just talk to people? It's like, oh, well, you can't just tell Chris spiel that you can't talk to people. That one doesn't work. You can't go down that road. I'm sorry. No, you can't talk to people. Then it's like, well, but you'd still need, and then they'd tell me that you'd still need, and I tend to agree. I mean, my thing I was telling folks is, look, I think all the digital stuff is fantastic, but why not cheat by starting with the conversation? You can't get enough conversations for it to be worth cheating. And I said, well, isn't go to a SDR or BDR world if you had 40 conversations a day with targets, that's the equivalent of 40 targeted Google ads that caused somebody to go to your website. So that's pretty good right there. What would 40 targeted Google ads to a vice president or whatever you're trying to reach that actually caused them to go to your website, what would that cost? And they generally go like 30, 40 bucks each. Well, that's $1,600 a day without any meetings of value that you're getting from the advertising of just having conversations. Surely you're not paying your BDRs $1,600 a day. There's margin in there. (16:39): And the idea that, oh, talking to people could be a form of marketing that is, I think where the edge is. It's almost like, but talking to that's Corey Frank (16:48): Interesting Chris Beall (16:49): Light or something. If marketing can't include talking to people nowadays, Corey Frank (16:55): It's like bottled water. Hey, we're out of water, we're out of bottled water. We're going to die of thirst. Well, what about this little thing called the tap? I tell my kids all the time. It's like, Hey, dad, the ro, and we're awa. It's Arizona. You got springs all over the place. So sometimes I suppose we're trying to overly complicate something where there's conversations all around, but what do you say to that rebuttal if you can't have enough conversations to make the math work? I think you and I would disagree on that, right? But is that where fundamentally the mindset is? Is that Chris? That's cute. You can talk with a couple people, but I'm talking about sending out mass emails and segmentation, and I do more before 7:00 AM than you do all day with a conversation. Chris Beall (17:37): Well, I would say that that level of confidence is not what I was seeing at the conference. It was more like this, which is really, that seems unlikely. And I sometimes have my phone with our current statistics just for the day. I could go look at it right now and probably find how many conversations did we connect yesterday? So we have this thing that's called daily dials, and  if I were to look at daily dials, here we go, daily dials, I can probably find some numbers. And this is one of the things that I tend to do is just look at the numbers every morning when I get up. Actually, I'm kind of lazy, so I lie in bed and I reach over for my phone, and here I am looking at the Daily Dials report, and it said that ConnectAndSell customers had 19,352 conversations yesterday. (18:35): Not over some vague period of time, but literally yesterday. And out of those, say that they only set 1,679 meetings, and one of our customers sets lots of meetings. They set 983 with just one of their groups. Really, really kind of a good brand. So if I bring this up and I go, well see here, there's this group of folks and it's 242 companies, and they had 19,352 targeted conversations. It's like, yeah, that's them, but not everybody can afford that. And I'm thinking, well, wait. So I talked to somebody who does advertising, saying we wanted to send an ad or have an ad associated with all the online activity, the phone, particularly activity of everybody we talked to. So that'd be 19,432 people a day of everybody our customers talk to. Is that doable? Oh, yeah. And how would that work? Well, it costs you $20,000 a year minimum. (19:32): You have to sign up, you have to commit. It's like, well, why? Well, I mean, for $20,000, you'd have a lot of conversations. Yeah. Well, it's just like, it's almost like I'm trying to come up with a good analogy. I love your bottled water analogy. #8: EP213: Ethical AI Selling - Reality vs Hype Certainly with your round table that you've talked with a lot of CEOs like Chris, but that authenticity, whereas as humans, we perceive those little subtleties and mood and those complex needs through a simple conversation. And when a tell happens from an ai, either Chris, to your point from a text or a bot, how do you combat that? Is that the racist to get as authentic as possible or because that's where I think the Delta ethics happened. Chris is, wait a minute, I thought you were a real person, but now you're a machine. So Shane, what do you think about that and bridging that gap? Shane Mahi (00:23:29): So Chris mentioned it yesterday and it drove a lot of the discussion, which was it's the ability to tell the truth and just being truthful about anything upfront. And I used it when I started, and it comes from the 27 seconds, is the point of inoculation. And it's stating a fact before somebody has that objection. And if you are using any type of artificial intelligence, computer robot, I think the most authentic, genuine thing to do is to tell the truth. And that comes from, Hey, this is a robot, Corey, I'd like to have a conversation with you. If not, would you like to be speaking to a human? You'll then say, sure. The robot then has the advantage of saying, Hey, Corey, it's going to take about five to six minutes to patch you through. I can probably get your questions covered in the next 45 seconds. (00:24:18): Do you want to have a chat with me or do you want to have a chat with the next person? And for me, that makes all the difference because time for a ceo, for a business professional is absolutely everything. And the ability to cut out that wasted time is everything. I'll give you a quick example. I called, I mentioned it yesterday, right, Chris? I called Pizza Hut the other day and it took me six minutes to remove onions from my pizza because the guy kept battling from me that I said, you can't just pick the goddamn onions off the pizza. I don't like onions. And it was a nightmare. Now, had a bot just been able to say, Hey, which toppings would you like to add or remove if any? Just remove onions. My pizza's at the door in 10, 15 minutes. And for me, again, the truth allows that time to be shortened, which gives you more opportunity to take care of other things that are most important in your life. (00:25:13): And another thing that I think is really important, I just watched it the other day, and that point you made on authenticity and being genuine and the truth. Mackinac, I'm sure you both have seen that. I had no idea. I think Sam Altman is an ex Mackinac that's swear God, because when that person, the robot locked the door, obviously it's playing with the guy. I'm a sucker for women, absolute sucker for women. So if I was in one of those situations and they were manipulating me without knowing it and putting the love spot, well, were you really interested in me? He's lying to you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, to get out. That is where everything changes for me. And now after seeing that movie, I'm wondering, Chris is very smart, Cora, you are very smart. Are you going to start peeling off your skin one day and saying the same thing to me? Corey Frank (00:26:11): Well, but I think that's part of it. It's a brilliant point. I love the trust thing #7: EP208: Balancing Relationships and Efficiency in AI Sales (8) If there's skepticism or resistance from sales teams or clients towards AI tools like ChatGPT, how do you recommend addressing these concerns? Well, a couple of different ways. There will always be skepticism about new technology. There should be. New technology means new, it's unproven. We're not sure what it does. Really, really cool technology that makes you think something that's not actually true. Like, hey, ChatGPT is a person who's talking to me. That's not actually true. Hey, ChatGPT is thinking about this. That's not actually true. It's the next engine. It knows a lot of stuff that it's read so to speak, and it knows how to spit out the next token, think token word, very similar concepts. And so when ChatGPT is talking to us so to speak, it's really just going next, next, next. Now maybe our minds work like this too, and our voices work like this.  Chris Beall (18:52): I have a feeling we do a lot of next, next, next, ourselves. It's just the way the world is. We love to think that we're really brilliant, having deep, deep thoughts and all that. Probably not. We're probably just spitting out the next word that comes to mind. That's why we call it. And so its natural skepticism is natural. The way skepticism is overcome is through two things. One is transparency, it let's be open about things. And the other is track record. So if the track record is good, and we note that over time some particular function, and I'll go back to those conversations where you take a discovery meeting, and the AI compresses it down to 10 points. Well, the first time I read one I might think maybe it's missing some things. By the time I've read a hundred of them, which only takes me a hundred minutes that I might've spread over a couple of weeks, I'm starting to go, Hey, I think this is pretty good.  Chris Beall (19:47): I don't have any big misses yet. But it just takes time. It takes time, and it takes experience. This is why the most skeptical people who are really, really smart plunge in and start experiencing what I call in anger or with an intent for a meaningful outcome, a new technology that is clearly as powerful as ChatGPT and all the things that are like it. So if you haven't gotten in there and put your hands on it, so to speak, and made some mistakes, try writing some prompts and seeing what happens. Don't just do the same thing over and over. Your skepticism only will go away appropriately and correctly with experience that leads to a track record because now you kind of know where the landmines are.  How about question number nine, future trends.  #6: EP209: Your Only Product Is the Meeting (Not this one - it's another short compilation episode) #5: EP214: The Future of Sales: Balancing AI and Authenticity We picked the most lovely industry to go into, and that's telemarketing and cold prospecting. And what was it? And the only reason that I was able to get to the truth faster was because read about Daniel Disney when the pandemic hit found, cog found ConnectAndSell, bought Cog, bought ConnectAndSell, spoke with Gerry, did Flight Scool, had seven meetings in six hours, and that's where it started. It was the ability to have your script, be honest, open, and just get into those conversations. And by doing that fast, quickly, efficiently, and at scale, we were able to progress our business much faster, I think, than a lot of people. We actually had 444% growth from year one to year two from using ConnectAndSell and implementing a system called the Entrepreneurial Operating System™ by Gino Wickman. (00:35:15): Now the authenticity of our brand, and even what is happening right now, came from all of the mistakes we made. And those are typically our storytelling, selling mechanisms, the mistakes we made and the path we took got us to a place where we made all those mistakes, learned everything, and served customers. I obviously lost my business because of some bad decisions I had to let go of my business, A lot of bad decisions. But I've recreated my business. That took me three years in three months with the use of ChatGPT. And why is it because I prompted all of my problems, all of my stakes helped me build a business plan that bypasses these mistakes and gives me the outcomes I'm looking for in half the time. And in that now, my marketing, my messaging, emails, prospecting, research, everything that, again, like you said, rightfully so, anything in the future is anxiety. (00:36:12): Anything in the past is regret. The only thing that matters is right, right now. And what's happening right, right now is yes, you better get on board because AI is happening. As much as you are worried about what can happen 5, 10, 15 years in the future, that shit is going to happen whether you like it or not. So it's either get ahead of the curve or get with the curve, or you are going to be that. They're just bums, bums who want to stay behind and complain and say, this is going to ruin me. This is going to take my job. Get with the program, dude, get with the program. Start using it. I was a novice, an absolute novice using ChatGPT when it first came out. The only thing that drew my attention was a hundred million users in one week for that alone. I was like, all right, let me see what this is about. I'm a novice still to this day, but the amount of times I've set up till three in the morning, six, seven hours, prompting, prompting, prompting to the point, the only reason I went to bed is because it said, you've maxed out your attempts. You can't use us anymore. Corey Frank (00:37:13): You finished the internet, you exhausted ChatGPT.  Shane Mahi (00:37:18): That’s right, and that happened multiple times. And my knowledge comes, which is why I believe podcasts, even to the education of AI and ethics and sales and marketing, everything behind it has come from listening and watching podcasts. That's the only reason I was able to learn. #4: EP212: Reps Dread It, Managers Avoid It: Coaching CLIP 1: So that's really key to getting coaching to work. The coaching has got to be immediate. Most coaching is way, way, way, way too late. Coaching somebody on Friday I about a performance they had on Monday, don't bother. It's just not going to get anything done. This is where I think managers often confuse what I'll call deal work with coaching. They think that they're coaching, they're actually talking through how a deal might go, what some tactics and techniques might be, and they get an agreement from the rep to do something better, different whatever in the next interaction that they have with the prospect. And that feels like coaching, that's more like advising and it's nice and it's important unless it's just war stories. But coaching is really to improve performance and you need to have the performance and the coaching and the performance and the coaching be very close to each other in time.  Chris Beall (16:28): Minutes are okay, not very many minutes, hours are too long and a week may as well be forever. CLIP 2: got to have a chance of listening for the same thing over and over. So it's really, really important to do it. But most of what's called coaching isn't really coaching, it's kind of advising it's too far after the fact.  So if you can figure out ways, be listening behind the scenes, coming in and whispering to somebody immediately after a conversation and helping them perform that little bit better on first failure, you'll find over time that and fairly short amount of time that what you're hoping for in the bottom line, which is conversion rates, small number of conversations, leads to a bigger number of meetings, and a larger number of meetings are being set per rep hour, which is the key number. You'll find that stuff improves on its own. So start from the beginning, you'll get to the end. Eventually, you'll get some great results #3: EP211: Conversations Convert to Pipeline Power Because let me tell you, if you think you know, you're fooling yourself, you're fooling yourself. If you aren't getting feedback from the market through conversations at a short enough cycle time and a high enough frequency, you're just guessing and your problem is competitively, somebody else might choose not to guess. And I think Helen's going to help her clients choose not to guess.  Corey Frank (08:33): And so with that, the helping knuckleheads like me choose not to guess. Where do you start, Helen, right? I'm a small mid-size VP of sales. I have a decent patient board. I have a SaaS software product. I got some funding. I think I'm doing everything right. I have enough people, I get more people as soon as I start proving myself and go to the board. So I think I'm doing okay, but where would I start with something like this? With people's power?  Helen Fanucci (09:05): I would start by looking at the data that you currently have in your CRM system or whatever your system of record is to find out one, where you're winning, who you're winning with, what types of people are making the buying decisions as a business. You may or may not already know. That depends on how you have been crawling through your own data. So I'd start there to look at the current state and try to draw some conclusions or at least illuminate where resources are aligned and are they aligned to where you're currently winning or are they misaligned? So I would start looking at the current state to build a hypothesis of what you could do more of to accelerate your revenue, and it might be repositioning some resources to an industry that you're doing well at or trying to then going to find people. Let's say you have some folks that make the decision, so you have some champions or economic buyers, what do they have in common across each other?  Helen Fanucci (10:24): And I don't just mean job titles, but the characteristics. You can look on LinkedIn and see what the characteristics of those and then go find some more like that within a defined addressable market or where you think you want to go. I think some of those things are places to start. This begins to get the closed loop feedback here. You have data, you have some results and dispositions from your go-to market, even if it's closed loss or not now, not interested, what have you. So trying to apply current data to then make some recommendations of how to move forward. The other thing too is what information do you have or that you capture that's proprietary to you? Because they can't build a defendable market dominance position on publicly available information. So what is it that you're collecting or that's proprietary and how do you get more of that that's relevant to your business? And I don't know if that's something in my experience anyway, that's not really a deliberate thing that people put. Time sort of happens and some people have more insights into their customer set, but doing that in an organized fashion to build up insights that your competitors don't have, or at least that's proprietary to you, makes a lot of sense and differentiating yourself and defending your position in the market.  #2: EP210: Sales Targeting Beyond LinkedIn and Navigator Helen Fanucci (22:01): One of the things that was interesting is this idea of territory assignments, and we have a rep that has a locked in territory and people, I guess feel a comfort zone with that versus well, okay, here you have maybe 10 accounts, but all the other unnamed accounts are fair game and they go to whoever gets a meeting in those accounts. It's so interesting to see how anxious or irritated people are by having an open territory concept. It's like everyone wants to have their patch defined, locked down so they can pursue it as they wish. So is that going smaller and smaller? It probably is, and it was just fascinating to me to observe the dynamics around that and the discomfort with having all these accounts that were fair game for anyone to go after. I wonder if you have seen that much in what your thoughts are about that, but when you talked about the shrinking world or shrinking view, that's kind of what I was thinking about is, yeah, you can zero in, but then you lose sight of what's possible where you're not looking.  Corey Frank (23:21): Yeah, it's funny. I think it's probably the same reason why a lot of sales reps have the security of a bloated pipeline. They can't disqualify folks in this particular quarter. Hope Springs eternal that this person will always close for this angst, this fear that if I keep sending them touch base emails, not picking up a call and having a conversation, not promoting something new, that I'm seeing what's happening in the world from 40,000 feet that's relevant or German to them. But if I simply do touch base emails, which is the equivalent of did you decide on choosing me and giving me your money yet? Or is there a better option that's out there? But that's why pipelines remain large. I can see that there is certainly from the team that all three of us collectively and Broaden knows we're a sales organization. The bigger, the more states I have, and Chris, you and I have talked about this when it comes to people too, if you're a sales manager, the more people I have under my purview, under my fiefdom, certainly the more prominent I am, I guess the more secure I feel. You probably saw this a lot at some of the larger companies you were with Helen, right? Is how many headcounts are under your particular p and l, and that somehow is a status thing.  Helen Fanucci (24:33): Well, it's power. You have more resources as a sales leader. You don't have a budgeta compared to headcount. So headcount is more resources. It is a version of power to be able to get bigger revenue, bigger quotas, because headcount always comes with bigger quotas. The more headcount, the more quota. So if you're willing to take that on, great. Why not? #1: EP145: Building Trust Must Always Be Step One (not this one - this was a small topic compilation episode that continues to be their top episode for over a year!)

In this solo episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall unveils the ultimate sales KPI: pipeline dollars generated per rep hour. This metric is a game-changer for CROs, CFOs, and CEOs looking to optimize their sales efforts and drive business growth. Chris explores the importance of measuring and maximizing this KPI, sharing insights from ConnectAndSell's own data and revealing the significant potential of a well-executed market dominance program. He breaks down the different types of attribution, ideal conversation and meeting rates, and optimal prospecting hours per week. Whether you're a sales leader aiming to improve your team's performance or a C-suite executive seeking to understand the economics of your sales efforts, this episode will help you discover how pipeline per rep hour can help you take your company's revenue generation to new heights.   FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:   [00:00:00] Chris Beall: Hey everybody, Chris Beall with Market Dominance Guys with an episode about a bunch of numbers, a bunch of KPIs. And I decided since it's just going to be numbers I'd leave Corey to do something more useful than ask me questions about numbers. [00:00:16] Chris Beall: So, I came up with the questions myself and [00:00:20] I'll play you with them. It's right now, the 4th of April, 2024, right before Tax Day. And I was speaking last week, had the pleasure of speaking with Mike McCracken, the Founder and CEO of McCracken Alliance Partners, who provide all the information. amazing help with regard [00:00:40] to finance things, not just taxes, which is that'd be fairly straightforward, probably, although they can be complex, but really how to make your company sing, how to make your company dominate even with the help of financial professionals who know what they're talking about and who will work with you to make [00:01:00] some stuff happen that you probably didn't believe could happen. [00:01:03] Chris Beall: So I asked Mike a question. I said, Hey, Mike it kind of bothers me that ConnectAndSell, which primarily has two impacts on companies that one would think CFOs would be interested in. One is immediate increase in pipeline, and everybody [00:01:20] knows that pipeline is a leading indicator of future revenue, and CFOs sure like to be able to forecast future revenue with  [00:01:27] Chris Beall: greater accuracy, specificity, and fidelity. And then it also allows you to decrease costs immediately because you can do more with less. And [00:01:40] less tends to be unnecessary headcount, extra headcount. You can also do more with more if you're in the mood to do that. But in any case, there's an efficiency play and capital efficiency is of great interest to CFOs. [00:01:51] Chris Beall: And Mike, he gave me a great answer. He just like, boom, hit me between the eyes. He said, Chris, you gotta come up with a KPI that [00:02:00] is meaningful to CFOs, that's meaningful to the business. And I said, well, we have one of those, and it's called Pipeline Built Per Rep Hour. And I thought, as I was out doing my little barefoot trot today, getting the usual comments from folks, what is it about going barefoot that makes everybody think that you're weird? [00:02:19] Chris Beall: I [00:02:20] don't know. In any case, I was out there trotting along in beautiful Arizona sunshine, and thinking, why don't I just say what some really good values would be for some, KPIs, some metrics that folks tend not to think about very much. And so I, I just thought I'd share [00:02:40] some we measure at ConnectAndSell what we call attribution, and we measure three kinds. [00:02:47] Chris Beall: So one kind is what we call direct attribution. That's looking at all the pipeline that's been built directly from meetings, appointments that were set in, ConnectAndSell. We know that happened because there are [00:03:00] dispositions that indicate that a meeting was set and there. Certainly is pipeline out there to be measured, and you can link it together a number of different ways. [00:03:09] Chris Beall: The most straightforward is by the account name, by the customer name, and you can say, hey, set a meeting with somebody. Pipeline shows up later. How much pipeline? [00:03:20] What stage is it in? And you get a pretty good read on what you're prospecting is accomplishing in terms of dollars of pipeline. That are being set by your reps, but what's in the denominator and the big question that I think really is out there for all of us who care about prospecting and anybody who doesn't care about [00:03:40] prospecting, certainly they either got some other weird kind of magic going on. [00:03:45] Chris Beall: Or and bless you if you do, right? You don't need prospecting, you're in a special place. But most businesses need prospecting. And, in fact, Jason Lemkin just wrote an article this week talking [00:04:00] about how the new KPI for venture finance companies, not just net retained revenue, not even just gross retained revenue, all the stuff that's about, oh my God, what if we lose a customer? [00:04:13] Chris Beall: We got to keep them all very conservative sort of way of looking at the world. It's about your [00:04:20] ability to add new customers. Well, add new customers is what prospecting is all about quite frankly. So now we have tied prospecting to the new, most important KPI that venture capitalists care about, which is adding new customers. [00:04:37] Chris Beall: It actually made me go take a look and I [00:04:40] was pretty happy with what I saw for our company. It was interesting to see, a little bit more than a hundred percent new customers added over the last year. Some of which have come through partners who are working on an appointment setting basis, and they're doing things for companies that would rather have somebody else do it, most of which are [00:05:00] customers of ours that are having ConnectAndSell help them do prospecting so they can get new customers and get new pipeline in a reasonably efficient way with predictability, visibility, and control. [00:05:13] Chris Beall: So that's really interesting. Pipeline is the number that we tend to look at. [00:05:20] And new customers are a, another number. I'll call those numerators. But what should we be looking for in the denominator? Well, I'll go to pipeline right now. We measure something called pipeline per rep hour. And we measure it, as I said, one way, which is what we [00:05:40] call direct attribution. [00:05:42] Chris Beall: That means came from meetings. We measured it another way, which is came after positive conversations. Positive conversations are like, I'm interested, send me information, that sort of thing. And then, there's the pipeline that comes from any old conversation. So any old conversation could be a negative [00:06:00] conversation, could be a blow off. [00:06:02] Chris Beall: The fact of the world is, when you talk to somebody, they're more inclined to take a look at your website. And they're much more inclined to answer that email that you wisely sent them that says thank you for our conversation today and also much, much, much more inclined to actually speak with you if you call them in the future [00:06:20] because you've already demonstrated that they answer the phone. [00:06:23] Chris Beall: And it's more likely to be a good conversation because you've had a conversation, however brief, and you can open the next conversation effortlessly with what you wanted to say, but kind of didn't get to say. How to, start that next conversation is something you make [00:06:40] available to your future self and in a set it and forget it kind of way, you become a sales genius. [00:06:46] Chris Beall: But what's in the denominator? Okay. So there's pipeline measured three ways. In the denominator. must be, it seems to me, the number of hours that reps spend prospecting. Now, I venture to [00:07:00] say most of us have no idea how many hours our reps spend prospecting. And one of the, I think, appeals of the SDR BDR revolution is, hey, I've got reps that are just prospecting, so I can allocate all of their hours, I can tag all of their hours, categories, categorize all of their hours [00:07:20] as prospecting hours. [00:07:22] Chris Beall: I don't know if this is true or not, but I am sure that when somebody's in a ConnectAndSell session and they've pushed the button, as we say, and they're having conversations, that we have verifiable time spent prospecting. And that's a cost to the business. Those reps cost money. [00:07:40] They're fully burdened rate is whatever it happens to be that can be burdened with just the usual, but you could also throw in all the tools and technologies and data and all that kind of good stuff you have to provide and you can get an idea of what a rep costs you per hour. [00:07:56] Chris Beall: You can, if you know how much pipeline was built by that [00:08:00] rep, by each rep, in each hour, and you know it in all relevant ways, one way would be directly through meeting set, that's the one that most folks will measure, if they measure anything, by the way. Another one is positive conversations that lead to pipeline. [00:08:15] Chris Beall: And another one is the really the good one, this you probably [00:08:20] won't believe, but it is the best KPI. Is. Pipeline built per hour from any conversation. You don't know what really has happened. A lot of stuff kind of goes out into, I'll call it sort of the action cloud. That is what's going on out there when someone has been spoken with by [00:08:40] one of your reps. [00:08:41] Chris Beall: You don't know. They can, that person, that target. They could talk to somebody else. They could go to your website. They could have a thought about what it is you do. They could check out you and your competitors, which is not a bad thing, by the way, if they haven't been thinking about a solution in your space. [00:08:56] Chris Beall: They certainly can answer an email or at least [00:09:00] read an email that you send them. So there's a lot of things that can happen. You can advertise to them. A lot of things can happen after a conversation. But the pipeline is pretty easy to measure. It comes right out of your CRM. Opportunities are there. [00:09:11] Chris Beall: They're in stages. Therefore different accounts, and you know that you talked to somebody at that account. Certainty is not the goal here. You can get [00:09:20] a perfectly good KPI without certainty. And, like all good data, you can measure it over time. You can trend it. And then you can go and correlate it to the final results, which is  [00:09:32] Chris Beall: ultimately bookings and then revenue and if you're a kind of an ARR or MRR kind of company ARR and MRR [00:09:40] because those could be interesting too. So number one new KPI to pay attention to pipeline generated per rep hour, and I'll give you some numbers that will sound different from what you might expect. I'm looking at the last year. [00:09:57] Chris Beall: So today is I'm [00:10:00] treating it as the end of March, so sort of April of last year, which is 2023 to end of March 2024. And I'm looking at a fair number of companies, about 130 of them, that I have pipeline per rep hour measured for. So, a really good number, [00:10:20] a fantastic number, is also a really big number. [00:10:24] Chris Beall: Some of these you kind of look at and you go, well maybe they're a little early in the game, but some of them are pretty stunning in any case. So one of our customers, for instance, and I won't say their name because they haven't authorized me to do that. They sell deals in an [00:10:40] average of about $73,894. And the pipeline that they're building per rep hour in the last year is $378,082 of pipeline per rep hour of prospecting. [00:10:57] Chris Beall: Now, darn well they're not paying any [00:11:00] of their reps. $378,000 an hour. Do we know what their gross margin is? So we'd actually be able to say how much money is coming in, do we think, from these deals. Do we know what the probability of the deals are? Do we know when the deals are going to close? [00:11:14] Chris Beall: Yes, we actually do know all those things, and those are very interesting to break down. But the [00:11:20] first thing to know is , you got to generate pipeline across all the different stages with a lot of different cycle times when they're actually anticipated to close, a lot of different probabilities in order to have business. [00:11:34] Chris Beall: That's just the way it is. So this is $378,082 an hour. The [00:11:40] next one down is a very large company that is pretty fascinating, actually, if you kind of looked at what they do. But their deal sizes are really big, like $2.77 million per deal. And they're generating $265,047 of pipeline per rep hour. And now I'm going with the pipeline that [00:12:00] is from all conversations, not merely that came directly through meetings, although we could look at that, but this is, I believe, the true most important KPI to pay attention to. [00:12:12] Chris Beall: So next is $258,586 of pipeline per rep hour, [00:12:20] $164,766. So let's go down a ways. I'm going to get to a company that is at about number 30 on the list. So actually, I'll go with our company, ConnectAndSell. How much pipeline do we generate per rep hour? So, our average deal [00:12:40] size is not huge. We do initial deals that are in the sort of $20,000 range. [00:12:45] Chris Beall: There's, some of them can be very large, some can be smaller, but we like to get started with folks in a way that really makes sense for their business. And we do a lot of prospecting. How much prospecting in that last year? A lot of prospecting. [00:13:00] 13, 578 hours of prospecting. That's a fair amount to generate a fair amount of pipeline. [00:13:10] Chris Beall: So when you look at it, that's 132 million dollars of pipeline. So it's $9,731 per rep. hour [00:13:20] of prospecting that can be measured. This is not taking all of the hours in the day for these reps. This is the hours they're spending. in sessions where they're pushing button, talking to a target, and then wrapping up, we call it, which is taking notes, setting the, that little teleprompter for their future self and [00:13:40] setting a disposition. [00:13:40] Chris Beall: So, and we're gaining intelligence as a company about all of these conversations and also separating out and segmenting the market into folks who answer the phone, we know answer the phone because we spoke with them and folks who haven't answered the phone yet. Across all of those, of course I don't, know why we wouldn't do [00:14:00] this. [00:14:00] Chris Beall: We measure their tendency to answer the phone across the entire community. We crowdsource that tendency to answer the phone and keep that current every day. Not for everybody, but for about 24 million folks that are worth talking to. We call it fast phone numbers. So all that intelligence is coming back. [00:14:17] Chris Beall: But the other thing that's coming back is [00:14:20] opportunities going into the CRM and those opportunities have dollar amounts associated with them. They also have probabilities and stages and all that kind of good stuff. But right now I'm talking about the most important KPI that's probably new to you. And if you're measuring this KPI already, pipeline [00:14:40] dollars per rep hour, I'm super impressed, unless you're already a ConnectAndSell customer, in which case we're measuring it for you. [00:14:47] Chris Beall: And then you're getting to understand it and break it down. We break it down for you, trend it, see how it's associated with individual reps. Would you like to know that each rep that is doing prospecting [00:15:00] is generating pipeline, and how much? Because being able to do attribution to marketing spend is one thing, but being able to do attribution to what you're spending on the actual folks that are out prospecting, that's whether they're SDRs and BDRs, or whether they're account executives, in our case, it is a mix. [00:15:18] Chris Beall: Everybody at ConnectAndSell [00:15:20] prospects. Big surprise, right? So when you look at all of your numbers and you think about your business, whether you're a CEO, whether you're a CFO, whether you're a CRO, whether you're a business development manager, a BDM, a SDR manager, a sales manager, a VP of sales, whatever you are, [00:15:40] this KPI is the KPI you should be paying immediate attention to. Now, once pipeline per rep hour, you've kind of simplified this production of pipeline, which is you either add more rep hours or you improve the pipeline [00:16:00] being set per rep hour by improving either the number of conversations and impact of those conversations. So conversations per hour, is important. [00:16:10] Chris Beall: Now we're going to go to the other end of the spectrum. What are the drivers, right? So the simple drivers are conversations per hour. Have more. What's a [00:16:20] reasonable number of conversations per hour that makes sense to have? There's a number somewhere between six and say 12 really can make a difference. [00:16:31] Chris Beall: Our average over all of our customers last year is about 9. 4, but it's highly varied because they're using different [00:16:40] protocols. Some are connecting on live voice, some are connecting only when the target answers. But if you've got five conversations an hour going on with your reps, you're probably doing pretty well. [00:16:50] Chris Beall: Now they're probably setting meetings. That's direct attribution. How many meetings per hour is a good number. About half a meeting per hour is a great target. If you're setting [00:17:00] half a meeting per hour per rep, you're probably doing quite well. How many rep hours per week really depends on what your reps are doing. [00:17:08] Chris Beall: If they're SDRs, my view is they should be doing as many as they can manage. That number is probably about five or six a day. And I know it [00:17:20] sounds like it's terrible talking to people for five or six hours a day. It's actually pretty fun. As long as you don't have to dial, navigate phone systems and do all that kind of junk. [00:17:29] Chris Beall: So that's that's a number that is interesting in the SDR world. Not many people achieve that. Our reps at ConnectAndSell, they run at [00:17:40] about 5. 8 hours of prospecting per week if they are SDRs. And they run at about 2. 5 hours of prospecting per week if they are account executives. So you can see it varies. [00:17:54] Chris Beall: The AEs are busy doing other things, but they find time to prospect. They tend to prospect together, by the [00:18:00] way. Together in time, not in space. They're all over the place because it's more fun. And because management then can talk about what we're trying to do in this particular session and we can gain more insights than just the data might give us. [00:18:15] Chris Beall: So this is about is it, this is a tough one, but I [00:18:20] would say for an AE two and a half hours a week prospecting, real prospecting measurable, probably get the job done. And for an SDR if you really want to dominate, you're probably talking about five and a half hours a week. Then you've got, okay, all this prospecting, prospecting is going on. [00:18:38] Chris Beall: Have we got the conversations [00:18:40] per week that are, or per hour that are happening? So we now know maybe 60 conversations a week on average, but again, very different between SDRs and account executives. And the same thing with dials that should be done for them. No rep should ever have to do a dial. [00:18:58] Chris Beall: It makes no sense [00:19:00] whatsoever. Reps should push buttons and talk to people, or hey, if you can talk to people without pushing buttons, that makes sense too. So what do your conversion numbers need to be in order to make this happen? Well, there are two kinds of conversion numbers, cold and follow up. Cold should be North of 5 percent if you're in a market [00:19:20] dominance program, but the main reason you're talking to folks is to segment the market into people you can talk to. [00:19:25] Chris Beall: Those who answer the phone and people you need to kind of go after a different way. Those who don't answer the phone. For those who answer the phone on the first conversation, what we call a cold call, you're going to be shooting for around 5 percent across all [00:19:40] of your reps. If you have a rep languishing at 2%, or then you have a skill issue. [00:19:45] Chris Beall: If you have all of your reps languishing at 2 or 3%, you probably have a targeting issue. The issue is that either your target market is being chosen incorrectly, or more likely, your scripting is allowing that easy [00:20:00] exit where somebody just says, "Thanks, we're all set." Almost every cold call script has got a major flaw in it that is going to drive your conversion for cold calls way, way down. [00:20:11] Chris Beall: Now, not to worry, even if your conversion for cold calls is way, way down, the money is actually in the follow ups anyway. So as long as you're having enough conversation, say a [00:20:20] rep is having something on the order of 50 or 60 conversations with targets per week. That should be generating something on the order of 40 to 50 follow ups. [00:20:31] Chris Beall: Follow up opportunities. That's people we know answer the phone that you can talk to next week or more likely next quarter. And you can nurture through the 11 [00:20:40] quarters in the future it's going to take for their company to finally want to do business with anybody. And that could include you because you've got the inside track. [00:20:48] Chris Beall: So you've got a kind of a two distributions called bimodal around the conversion rate. So the conversion rate can be at 5 percent for cold calls and should be at north of [00:21:00] 10 percent for follow up calls. And that also will, interestingly enough, follow up calls reduce the conversations per week just a little bit, because they tend to be longer conversations, but everything kind of comes out in the wash. [00:21:14] Chris Beall: So, how many conversations should you get, by the way, per dial that's executed for you? Highly [00:21:20] variable, but the cold call world, about 5%. And in the follow up world, something around 12 or 13%. And then, when you kind of look at it overall, you've got dials going on, how many meetings should you have per dial. [00:21:32] Chris Beall: I don't think this is a particularly compelling, KPI, unless your reps are doing the [00:21:40] dials, but it's kind of good to know. So a number of about 0. 6 percent is a decent number for meetings per dial. And after that, what are the drivers? So let's figure out how can we make the number that we want go up? [00:21:55] Chris Beall: Well, you can make your average deal size go up, but your market probably determines [00:22:00] that. So I don't think you should push on that one, but that's that one can be interesting. Mostly the big correlation, interestingly enough, and obviously Well, pipeline per rep hour, let's just increase the number of rep hours and we increase the pipeline. [00:22:18] Chris Beall: It seems too simple, [00:22:20] but it actually is the key to everything. The number one correlation between any of these KPIs and the number of dollars a pipeline produced per day or per week, or per month, whatever it is that you care about, it's actually primarily driven by [00:22:40] simply prospecting time. And a little bit of prospecting time goes a long way. [00:22:45] Chris Beall: If your pipeline per rep hour is big $100,000 or even $10,000, just add more hours to get more pipeline. But what if I want to get my pipeline per hour up also, not just [00:23:00] add more hours, but add more pipeline? What do I do? Number one thing to do is increase the percentage of follow up calls, follow up pipeline generating prospecting calls compared to cold calls. [00:23:14] Chris Beall: For some reason, folks get obsessed with cold calling, which they don't even like to do. And it's [00:23:20] like, well, we talked to this person, talked to this person. It's almost like scratching lottery tickets and hoping to get lucky and hope might be a strategy in the world of lottery tickets, not a great strategy in the world. [00:23:31] Chris Beall: of Market Dominance. So what do you want to do? Well, you want to make sure that your reps are talking to people it [00:23:40] makes sense to talk to, and your follow up lists automatically are full of those people because they either expressed enough interest or your rep decided it was worth talking to them in the future, and they're easier to get a hold of. [00:23:53] Chris Beall: So that's number one. Number two is fix your messaging so it resonates. Your [00:24:00] messaging probably is driving folks away because it contains too much value. And the value statements in your messaging, we do X and Y for companies like you, blah, blah, blah, are causing somebody to get to achieve their goal in the call. [00:24:16] Chris Beall: Which is to get off this call with our self image intact by [00:24:20] simply saying, "Thanks, we're all set." So that's the next thing you should do. Why should you do that before you change your targeting, your actual lists? For a simple reason. Until you, you really get there and get to a point where you're confident that at least you don't have a structural, psychological issue in your messaging, [00:24:40] then until you get there, you don't really know how well it's working for targeting. [00:24:45] Chris Beall: That is, you can't really tell what's resonating. You can get lucky sometimes. But you've got to have what we call a calibrated message. Then you need to get at least one of your reps to the point when, where when they deliver the message it is, consistent. You're going to get [00:25:00] consistent read. That comes back in the form of meeting set per rep hour. [00:25:06] Chris Beall: So that's, a good one. It also actually comes back in conversion rate, meeting set per conversation. So you need to get to the point where, yes, we know what that, that is, what the conversion rate is, and how it ties to the reps [00:25:20] time. Then we're free to say, okay, now, what part of our list is this working well for? [00:25:26] Chris Beall: And what part of the list is it not working well for? And you can do segmentation that is more fine grained than what you have today. This is actually a little bit tricky to do, but if you take the [00:25:40] folks that you're setting meetings with, then you take them off to a company like Rev, at GetRev. ai. [00:25:46] Chris Beall: Fred Mondragon was on one of those. Market Dominance Guys talking about this. You can have them point to a whole bunch of companies that are in this exographics way, in a significant way, similar to the ones that you're setting appointments with. That is, [00:26:00] you don't have to even wait until you've got a whole bunch of business. [00:26:03] Chris Beall: You're brand new, you're going after a new market. What's the first signal that says that you're going to have pipeline built? It's meetings set. So go and use that. You can also look at the pipeline that's being [00:26:20] set in the CRM based on the conversations. That's the, we call that the possible attribution. [00:26:26] Chris Beall: So you have two very nice signals that you can use in order to improve your targeting. Once you've done all of that, then it makes sense to actually increase the amount of prospecting time. Until you've got it all calibrated, if you [00:26:40] just increase the prospecting time, you just irritate yourself and people. [00:26:43] Chris Beall: And you actually, you can burn out a team and you can burn through lists in ways that don't make a great deal of sense. And you can also trick yourself into thinking that you're seeing things, positive and negative things, that aren't actually there. You got to get to the data to see the reality. So, that's that kind of [00:27:00] wraps it up. [00:27:00] Chris Beall: That's a whole bunch of numbers, but I'm going to come back to the main one. Pipeline dollars per rep hour is the KPI that you need to be looking at. And to do that to have that number to hand, you have to have a way of measuring the actual rep hours spent prospecting and [00:27:20] tying that to the pipeline that's sitting in your CRM. [00:27:23] Chris Beall: Again, it's something we do at ConnectAndSell as a convenience for you. It's just go ahead and hook up your CRM and we'll measure this every single day and break it down all the way to the individual rep, or to the list, or to the team, or whatever it is that you want, and you'll have that [00:27:40] KPI in hand, but without that KPI, it's really, hard, unless pipeline dollars that are being built per rep hour, it's really, hard to figure out the economics of a market dominance program. [00:27:54] Chris Beall: So for Corey Frank, you got a day off, Corey, and Chris Beall, this [00:28:00] is Market Dominance Guys  

Corey Frank and Chris Beall are once again joined by Fred Mondragon for this final segment from their visit. In the first two episodes with Fred, the guys covered the topic of The Seductive Shadowboxing of CRM data - Fit vs. Intent, Then the other side was discussed - Intent, Fit and the Future of Sales intelligence. In this final segment, the trio explores how Rev's AI-powered platform is helping sales teams "find the zipper in the weasel suit," transforming weasels into top-performing pigs. Fred explains how Rev's "special purpose AI" leverages vast amounts of data to help reps identify and target their ideal customers, while Chris emphasizes the importance of engaging in trust-building conversations. Corey sees the immense potential in combining Rev's AI targeting with ConnectAndSell's powerful sales acceleration tools to solve the challenge of "Who do I go after next?" Join us for this episode, "Finding the zipper - helping weasels become top-performing pigs." About Fred Mondragon: Fred, a senior sales and business development executive with extensive experience at SaaS software companies, joined Rev in 2021. He has managed revenue generation channels at numerous successful startups and large companies, including TimesTen, Oracle, and most recently, Medallia, where he set up the channel sales and alliances function from scratch. Fred received his B.A. and MBA from Stanford. Links from this episode: Fred Mondragon | LinkedIn The Sales Development Platform: Find your next best customer | GetRev.AI Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn ConnectAndSell

In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, Chris Beall and Corey Frank are joined by special guest Griffin McGowan, a recent college graduate navigating the world of sales job hunting. The trio delves into the challenges and opportunities faced by young professionals seeking to launch their sales careers, with a particular focus on the crucial role of mentorship. Griffin shares his experiences interviewing with various companies and the valuable lessons he's learned, while Chris and Corey offer insights on what employers look for in new hires and the skills needed to succeed. The conversation also explores the idea that interviewees are not just looking for a job, but are essentially "hiring" a boss or mentor to guide them through their professional journey. Packed with wisdom gained from years of experience, this episode is a must-listen for recent grads, mentors, and interviewers alike. Join them for this episode, "New Grads: You're the Product, Choose Your Buyer."   Links from this episode: Griffin McGowan on LinkedIn Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn ConnectAndSell   FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:   Corey Frank (00:00): Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank from Branch 49. And as always, the sage of sales, the profit of profit, the Hawking of Hawking, the CEO of ConnectAndSell Chris Beal. Good afternoon, Chris, how are you?   Chris Beall (00:16): Hey, I just finished watching Oppenheimer. So that Hawking of Hawking thing goes pretty deep right now. I'm into physics.  Corey Frank (00:23): Really? Okay, we'll have to think of one that rhymes my alliteration for o the [00:00:30] blank of Oppenheimer of, I don't know, origination. How about that? Sales origination. So Chris, we have a special guest. I think this is a first for us in our 230, 40 episodes plus of the market dominance guys, because we talk about at Branch 49 and certainly a ConnectAndSell is what you've helped us build. Here is the term uco, which is a finishing school for future CEOs. And today we have Griffin McGowan, [00:01:00] who is a future CEOI think from all senses and from what we know about No pressure Griffin, but we want to track your progress on LinkedIn here over the years. And Chris, you have an interesting story about how Griffin, and then we want to hear from Griffin about what stage in this finishing school are you at and what is this concept of [00:01:30] a finishing school and what are the pieces that maybe are missing or that Chris and I certainly can help contribute to newer folks who are entering in a profession. So welcome Griffin and Chris. How do we know Griffin and why is he in a hot seat here at the Dominus guys market?   Chris Beall (01:48): Well, the short version of the story is I got fired. I can't remember what day it was probably Christmas Eve or something like that from AP Par when they decided to sell the company. And [00:02:00] I said, we don't need a senior vice president of product innovation anymore. Who does need one of those anyway, when you really think about it. But I had the job and so I was flying back from the east coast where I used to commute back and forth between here and the West coast and there. And I was sitting next to somebody that I just hit it off with and we had this great conversation for the six hours it takes to fly into the wind from one coast to another. And that was Brian McGowan, Griffin's dad. [00:02:30] And we talked about venture capital and we talked about building businesses, we talked about all manner of things you can talk about a lot in six hours.   Chris Beall (02:37): And so, okay, that was fine. And we did some things later. Brian helped us out at ConnectAndSell in the commercial real estate arena. Got us a great meeting with JLL. I learned that commercial real estate as a world, whether you just don't care about their salespeople and so they'd hardly want to help them with something like ConnectAndSell. But it was fascinating and we had a thesis and we ran at it and had a great time. [00:03:00] And then a couple of years ago, Griffin, you can tell the story. Did you reach out to me? It had to be your dad basically saying, look, I don't know very many good people in business, but I know this guy is semi okay but better than nothing. So why don't you chat with them or something like that.  Griffin McGowan (03:20): Yeah, definitely. So it was my junior year of college I was planning on doing an internship at a big company, but right after hopping out of Covid, a lot of the internships [00:03:30] I was looking at were online internships, remote, and didn't believe I'd really get that great experience doing an online remote interview would be better to be in person in the office. So my dad thought of the idea, why don't I put you through my own little just background of meeting with a bunch of people, understanding how business works, getting that little internship feeling. And one of the things he specifically focused on was [00:04:00] reaching out to his network. That's huge. So that summer I spent probably two or three months talking to a hundred ish people like-minded individuals like yourself from CEOs, the CTOs to people just getting into the business world, just trying to understand and pick their rein a little bit, learn their background, get some recommendations. I wasn't sure where I was going with my career yet. Was looking in finance, was looking in real estate, and was looking in investment banking. So it was [00:04:30] just trying to put together the pieces before graduation. And I know we got the chance to talk, you recommended some great books. I went through your background about getting into sales and now that I've graduated last May, I've chosen the path of going into sales, understanding business, understanding the sales cycle. So that's where I ended up.  Corey Frank (04:51): And you went to a great school at University of Alabama, right? In business school? Yes.  Griffin McGowan (04:55): I graduated from the CulverHouse College of Business there. Big school, big football [00:05:00] program. So it was awesome going there.  Corey Frank (05:02): Sure, sure. Well this will be good for Chris, for you and I because you got have great pedigree, you have great raw material and moving into sales, what Chris and I want to do is help understand what needs to be thrown out and what needs to be added to this arsenal of wisdom and knowledge and skills for the next couple of years or so as you establish yourself [00:05:30] in sales. So does that sound okay, Chris? I think that'd be fun to explore this with Griffin.   Chris Beall (05:38): Sounds outstanding. And by the way, Griffin, I didn't know you'd talked to so many people. I have to say I don't know another person who has executed a summer program that's got that kind of, I don't know, range SPECT depth. I mean that's a lot of conversations to ConnectAndSell. Our motto is that conversations matter. You went out and got [00:06:00] 'em that alone. I mean, who needs to interview you, right? I'd be done. It's like, okay, well whatever that is, go do more of that, but do it on my team. I may actually poke you away from whatever it is that you're going to be doing, but you probably want to work for a better company than ours. So  Griffin McGowan (06:19): Yeah, my dad always kind of worded around the bigger the network you have, the more opportunities you have. He's been my mentor through this whole process. So getting out [00:06:30] and talking to as many people made me more comfortable having conversations, even like this one, understanding background, picking up on some terms. So it's just overall increased my education.  Corey Frank (06:43): Well, the great Harvey McKay has, he's always asked what is the one piece of advice as a new grad entry into sales or even any profession is the key to his success that he would empower on folks is your net work [00:07:00] is your net worth and the more you can focus on your net, the more that your net worth will be year after year. And I thought that's a great piece of advice that he's preached for many, many years. So let's start Griffin with, I'm curious at the University of Alabama in the college of business, was there a culture, was there a mentorship [00:07:30] or an urging to move into the sales arena at a major university like this coming out of the college of business? Or was it business writ large as this behemoth, this nondescript entity of commerce in general?  Griffin McGowan (07:46): So I would say it was business as a whole, depending on where you wanted to take that you can take certain classes that lean more towards others. At the time I was really undecided, so I wasn't sure of the path I was going to take. I have friends and even colleagues now that kind of chose [00:08:00] more of the path going into real estate, going into finance, going directly into sales. So there's so many classes that offer it. Even picking a nice minor, you can really dive down into it deep a little bit more. The mentorship was great though. The teachers were great. All the classes were perfect. At the time I went, the more broader route with the major was just trying to figure out the path I wanted to take.  Corey Frank (08:23): Sure. No, I understand that. But it's something that I think that Chris and I have seen and we've talked about a few times in [00:08:30] our personal conversations over the years is that business has nothing to do with sales. Of course it has everything to do with sales, but somehow most of these patriot universities will give you the imprimatur, the certificate, the diploma, the degree and say, okay, go forth, young traveler into the world with this business degree. But somehow that [00:09:00] this concept, this science of sales is something that is picked up on the street. It's picked up on Instagram and 62nd first necessarily from the market dominance guys, right. Chris, wouldn't you say?   Chris Beall (09:17): Yeah. Well it's really interesting. I mean I've been working on occasion, been privileged to get to do some stuff with Dr. Howard Dover at a University of Texas Dallas, who runs one of the greatest sales programs, [00:09:30] maybe the greatest university level sales program in the world. It's truly about sales and they learn theory, they learn practice, they learn from really solid folks who know what they're talking about. They learn from yahoos like me and it's very sales-focused, which is interesting and unusual. I do think, and again, I never went to business school, physics was hard enough for me, business would've been completely [00:10:00] overwhelming, but I don't have any experience with it directly as a student. But my impression has been business schools will nibble around the edge of sales, but they won't hit it head on as a true discipline that you can learn deeply and that is hyper important.   Chris Beall (10:18): Your entire career is going to depend on it. And yet when you go to the other end of the spectrum and you say, okay, let's talk to a bunch of CEOs, one, they almost all came up through sales. It's [00:10:30] unusual otherwise. And two, they have sales chops, they can hold a conversation with a stranger. I'll go back to meeting Griffin's dad. So you get two guys like us sitting on an airplane for six hours, well, you're going to have a conversation and it's going to be a comfortable conversation. It's going to be far reaching. It had a lot of personal elements to it actually. That's one of the things that you learn I think when you're moving in business, moving [00:11:00] up, moving out and around is it's okay to be a person, but you don't have to be some sort of a statue or something, but you can be yourself and that's going to be helpful.   Chris Beall (11:11): That's actually going to be part of the thing that you're doing. So I think it's all quiet, it's fascinating. I think sales is starting to make its way into business schools formally, but it's still considered to be more of an art that's picked up in the rough and tumble than a science [00:11:30] that you can learn. You could learn finance and modeling and stuff like that, I guess is what I would call it. So to me, I've gotten an opportunity to talk to a lot of young people about their careers and older people about their careers. And I always say the same thing, which is that in business you're responsible for helping folks get to a point where they can accept your help. That turns out to be a big part of business because everybody's busy [00:12:00] and everybody's busy doing whatever they're doing. And if you can be helpful, you have to break through that somehow. It's change management where it's not your organization, it's somebody else's. And the number one thing you need is you need to be respected. And in the world of business, if you've never sold anything, it's hard to get a lot of respect.  Corey Frank (12:23): Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, and the art of getting to the point where you've sold something, [00:12:30] we see this a lot, Chris, right? That people wander like a ship without a rudder from sales gig to sales gig to sales gig. It takes three, four sales gigs where they maybe have six months, 18 months in or before they settle or they find the one that they're now going to spend the next 3, 4, 5 years in. And it's as if they're looking for something and then they settle for something [00:13:00] or it's that, Hey, I wasn't successful at the sales gig because my manager, the leads, the market, the comp plan, the commute, what have you. And they do that a couple of times until they realize, wait a minute, I think that I've realized what the problem is and it's the person in the mirror and I better plant my feet.  Corey Frank (13:19): And so what a lot of great sales, mentors, sales skills are out there on the market today. If there's one thing over the last 15, [00:13:30] 20 years, Chris, it's that there is no excuse for a new grad not to have education in this profession without spending the thousands of dollars that you would have to do for a sales certification for the price of a couple of overdue charges at your local library or for a YouTube subscription, which is free. You should have no problem imparting some of the basics. So let's get into it. Griffin. So [00:14:00] you just interviewed with a number of companies, but particularly some of the interviews that you had just recently, I think Chris and I and the audience are curious of what are the type of questions for a sales role that the sales folks, leadership execs, peers, et cetera, we're asking somebody with you, with your qualifications to find out if there's a real snug fit in their organization.  Griffin McGowan (14:27): So definitely, yeah. The first question of course they're [00:14:30] going to ask is why sales? They want you to be able to understand that question and be able to express that question in a way that shows why you're interested in it. Of course, they want to hire somebody that's hungry for sales. And then that correlates into other questions about what skills do you possess that are like skills and then going into other questions about tough situations if you've dealt with in the past, either if it's a smaller job or working as a professional job, just trying to pick your brain a little bit, ask [00:15:00] you those tough confusing questions and then really see if you're able to bring up experiences and if you're able to sell yourself, I would say  Corey Frank (15:13): Anything surprising about some of the interview questions that you've been asked,  Griffin McGowan (15:17): I would say some companies that I've interviewed at some of the questions are a little, I would say overcoming a tough situation. Some of the questions don't correlate directly with sales. I [00:15:30] would say some of the questions are a little too out of the ballpark sometimes. I've had weird questions when it comes to tell us a time that you were last stressed out at work, which I understand how that would correlate to sales, but it's more of one of those questions that I believe it's if you search up the list of 25 basic interview questions, it aligns in that way.  Corey Frank (15:54): Well, that's interesting. Let me ask you, and Chris can chime in on [00:16:00] this, but from your perspective, Griffin, from this hunt, this searcher on to find the next gig in the profession of sales, do you think that it is more nature or more nurture to succeed in the profession? And what do you think of the folks who are interviewing you at these larger companies, what do you think they think the answer to that is? And I'd love Chris's opinion on this as well.  Griffin McGowan (16:30): [00:16:30] I would say it's both in the middle of that nature nurture. I think you really have to be driving and outgoing when it comes to it. And I would say the most difficult part about interviewing for a sales job is since Covid, we've noticed that the interview process has turned into online interviews not as much being held in person. And I think it's difficult to be able to sell yourself through a Zoom call and especially go through all these interview processes. It just doesn't work as well. I think more in person is where [00:17:00] it aligns.   Chris Beall (17:03): Well, I'll jump on that. I mean this whole zoom thing has been fascinating to me. For one thing, we've been running this company remotely since 2014, so we got pretty used to not being together because I couldn't, I wanted top talent and I didn't want to pay for two floors of an office building that was a long commute to get there and kept the top talent far away where I [00:17:30] could get 'em anywhere. What I learned through that process is it's possible to be very human and very open and vulnerable and to have fun with people, whether you're in person or whether you're on a zoom, but you're going to have to bring it. It's you who has to bring that, we'll call it the softness, a willingness to have fun with people even though you're a [00:18:00] long distance away and you don't get to sit down right with them.   Chris Beall (18:02): And in a way it's almost easier. But you've with that attitude and as Corey, my approach to talking to people is just to talk to 'em and see what happens. One of the things that I posted about this yesterday, I think one of the things I think is weird about sales and weird about a lot of business is there's this idea that we should know the outcome of the conversation before we start the conversation. That is the purpose of the conversation [00:18:30] is for me to get what I want. You decide to sign the contract or whatever it happens to be. That's the hopefully foregone conclusion. And yet the beauty of conversations is they always offer an opportunity to discover something that's completely unexpected and that's where new value shows up. So I'm wondering, Griffin, did you feel like in any of these interviews that anybody was trying to let the completely unexpected come out of your mouth?   Chris Beall (19:00): [00:19:00] Or did you feel like there's going, okay, one from column A, one from column B, which was it, and then they're going to go talk about you among themselves and say, well, this area was like this and this area is like this. Whereas you could imagine folks talking about something and going, oh my God, that guy was just like it was to be in the same room with them and there's going to be a lot of sales on Zoom. We better pick this guy up. So what did you feel like? Were they checking boxes or were they having [00:19:30] fun?  Griffin McGowan (19:31): I would say it's a lot of checking boxes of what I've noticed that you can tell the questions that they're asking. You can see them staring to the screen next to them and you can hear them on the keyboard or writing on the side, taking notes. I would say a lot of the interviews are structured like that. They're given a set of questions to ask, seeing how you respond to them and then formulating and talking to the team after to come up with more of a conclusion. I would say only some of the interviews I'd have that I've seen more really [00:20:00] just trying to understand you as a person by just having natural conversation with you. Some of it seems just very robotic.   Chris Beall (20:08): Fascinating.  Corey Frank (20:10): Have you been, again, without naming certainly any of these names, but when you've interviewed at some of these larger organizations, have you sat in awe of the person who is interviewing you and thought, my gosh, this is a scientist, [00:20:30] this is a master craftsman, this is somebody who I want to emulate, epitomize rise to that level from how they handle themselves and the charisma, how they light up a room, albeit virtually how they have the master of the art of the conversation? Or has it been candidly, maybe fairly underwhelming when you think of these large organizations should have the best rock stars on planet earth?  Griffin McGowan (21:00): [00:21:00] I think it's a mixed batch of both. I've applied for smaller companies and soft and tech. We're all the way up to bigger companies and it depends who you talk to. There's definitely been people that I've talked to that I've been blown away by wanting to work right under them, even viewing them as a mentor, even just having a 20 minute conversation with them. And then other account executives I've talked to that just sound robotic that you wouldn't even think they were in sales in the first place. So it's bouncing around. Within those interviews, [00:21:30] you'll talk to somebody that's a rockstar, then you'll talk to somebody that was just trying to get through the interview, hit all the boxes and just do their job.  Corey Frank (21:39): Well, first of all, love to hear that. I think that's one of the pieces that I think that I've learned from Chris over these 20 plus years of knowing him and as a mentor. And one of the pieces of advice that I received early on is you choose your boss, you're hiring for a boss and [00:22:00] a mentor as much as you're hiring for the job and whether it's a small organization, but somebody who's a dynamic esteemed craftsman, I would take that even at less pay than going for the resume builder, which I think would be the traditional VC funded company, Chris, right? With the fast track and the folks who are going through the robotic mentor, and sometimes we chase the vanity metrics of what shows on our LinkedIn or our resume [00:22:30] versus really what's going to do the best work to build our network down the road. Chris, any thoughts on that? Well,   Chris Beall (22:38): To me it's the whole game. I mean, the fact of the matter is there are some people that are just dynamite to work with where the freedom that you have to bring your best out to explore well so you're going to be held to a high doing standard. That's a good thing. And my standard, which is if you're joining in order [00:23:00] to advance your career, I'm going to fire you immediately anyway. So that's not going to work out. We're going to actually accomplish something together and it better be something almost everybody would fail at, and that's the fun of it. If that's fun for you, then let's go do that thing. If it's not, then it's probably going to be worse than you think. So the question of what are you getting? I mean, you're actually buying something when you take a job with somebody, you're buying that boss.   Chris Beall (23:30): [00:23:30] That's what you're buying. What are you buying them with? You're buying them with a chunk of your career with time and time you can't get back. So it's a very important purchase that you're making. And I think a lot of people don't realize that when you are looking around for companies to join up with and people to work with, you're the buyer. They think that they're the buyer. Trust me, it's like when you're raising venture capital, you are the product. [00:24:00] They don't have the product. All they have is money and time. It's not that interesting, but you're the product, you're the differentiated offering. That's why they have to talk to so many and you may have to talk to a lot of them. They got to talk to more of you. So I think it's the same kind of dynamic that, and I think it's when times are tough for getting certain kinds of jobs.   Chris Beall (24:20): And Griffin, you mentioned before we started, this is not the easiest time in the history of life to get a sales job. A lot of people are going, Hey, give me somebody with the big Rolodex [00:24:30] or give me somebody who's got the depth of my industry or whatever it is that they've got going on and they've been doing cuts. And so especially in the SDR kind of end of things, which has become the traditional entry point, teams have gotten smaller. I don't know if the standards have gotten higher, they should, but the number of opportunities and the flow rate has gone down a little bit. But I think the most important thing for anybody to remember is that you're purchasing that boss. Now, one of the [00:25:00] challenges I've always had with big companies and why I haven't worked for a lot of them is you don't know what's going to happen to your boss.   Chris Beall (25:08): Your boss is going to get reorged to some other part of the world. My wife Helen had a deal at Microsoft where she ended up with a switch out of bosses and it just became untenable. And then she managed to get back to the previous boss and then they reorged around something completely new, which is all this AI stuff. And [00:25:30] here she is now starting her own company. But when you think about it, that's what you're buying. You are purchasing a boss and you're purchasing them for as long as you want to get 'em, which we don't know how long that is, and it's probably the most important purchase you ever make. People talk about a house as nothing compared to a boss.  Corey Frank (25:52): Yeah, for sure. For sure. So with that Griffin, what would you [00:26:00] describe, maybe speaking personally, but also from maybe some of the peers that you graduated school with? What are folks at the stage of your career? What are you looking for in a boss?  Griffin McGowan (26:13): You're just looking for somebody that can give you a lot of guidance that can really help support your career. Talking to other people, I've noticed that some of my peers are looking for a job with high income where they can make money straight out of school. Some are looking for just that great entry level job that can [00:26:30] really position and set them up for a great opportunity into the future. Personally for me, I'm just looking to work around smart people, work at a great company, have a mentor, and of course at the end of the day, make money work somewhere with an uncapped commission where the sky's the limit of how I can earn money.   Chris Beall (26:51): Uncapped commission see right there. That's a good answer to a good thing to say in any sort of interview situation around [00:27:00] sales, it's like, if the product's great enough and the opportunity is big enough, I work just for commission. You ever want to get a sales job, just go ahead and say that. I would go ahead and I would just work for straight commissioning and go, oh, I respect you already. I used to work as a fuller brush man in Phoenix in the summer. I was desperate to do something. I needed to make some money [00:27:30] within a week or two, and I found myself with my first all commission job. And it was so interesting because it's like so many things in life. Until you step across that threshold, you really don't know what that feels like and what it feels like is going to determine what you act like. So that was a great answer right there. Absolutely.  Corey Frank (27:51): It wasn't a   Chris Beall (27:51): Interview question was just a great  Corey Frank (27:56): Right. Well, let's keep that vein going for another question [00:28:00] or two here. Griffin, what would you describe, let's say you were having a chat with my good friend Chris and myself here, and we were two sales leaders, and we asked you what's the strongest part of your sales process, this arsenal you bring to our organization? You're attracted by the mentorship and the untapped commission, maybe based off of the recent grad. A lot of folks are interested in the flexibility [00:28:30] and when the balance, et cetera, which are admirable things. But when you look at your sales arsenal of the things you need to succeed to tap into that on a commission, what would you say Griffin says is the strongest part of your sales process? What do you do really well?  Griffin McGowan (28:47): Yeah, I would say to reiterate, just working in a strong company where the onboarding is great. I've noticed interviewing with some companies, and I've had some offers sent out that there really isn't an onboarding process. [00:29:00] They just hold you to that, call 300 people a day, call 400 people a day, and that's all they really give you. They just give you a script and just with small stuff like that, they're just going to work you to death at that point. They don't really care on your professional development. They're just using you as another person in the door, another person to be on the phone just to call, call and just bleed you dry.  Corey Frank (29:25): Well, let's drill down into your specific skill set. If we were to [00:29:30] rank 23 and Me to do a stress test on your sales skills that you have as a recent grad, what are you better at than others? What's the strongest part of your Griffin McGowan skillset?  Griffin McGowan (29:46): I would say the big thing I've been focusing on is empathy and active listening, bringing that into sales, having empathy, being able to connect with the prospect that you're talking to, and then also being able to listen, understand their problem, [00:30:00] keep your mouth quiet, let some silences go out, but to let them overall talk because if you're going to be on the call with a prospect and you're dominating the call the whole time and not letting them speak and express things, you're not going to progress that any longer. Well,  Corey Frank (30:17): That's fascinating because that's what I've observed in this chat with you thus far. This 30 minutes that we spent is you are an active, engaged listener. You don't step on other people's lines. [00:30:30] And I think that's admirable to a large degree. I would push back just colloquially, just conversationally, that when you're engaged in a good debate, a good conversation, that there does need to be an element where there is some tension. Because if there's too much active listening where there's a pause and [00:31:00] it's a question, answer question, answer question, answer, the status is diminished. The supplicative behavior, although not overt, is there. So I would just, Christian, I know Rich, what your thoughts are on that, but you're a phenomenal listener already. We can tell and just know you and meet you. But I think in the realm of sales, especially as a newer sales rep representing a product, and if you're talking to a seasoned executive [00:31:30] like Chris in a discovery call, there needs to be this authenticity in a conversation. And I think there does need to be a little bit of tension introduced with some control. But Chris, what are your thoughts on that?   Chris Beall (31:47): Hey, when you're in sales, you're catching whales on a five pound test line. You got to know on the letter run and when to set the hook. I mean, it's a delicate business, there's no doubt about it. [00:32:00] It is a lot more, I don't know, it's doing something like figure skating or something like that. It doesn't look like a big difference to the layperson, whether you're landing on that inside edge of the outside edge. But one of them, you go down and the other one you look great and things happen and there is a lot of delicacy. And that balance between empathy, which you need. I mean, Griffin, you're dead, right? You need it, right? And then the thing [00:32:30] that you bring, so you have this baseline of, Hey, I can listen. I like to listen. I like to know what's going on with you. But you've got the question of, well, why are you talking to somebody in the first place? Unless there's some conflict between what they have and what they want? You wouldn't be having the conflict uncovering the world without pissing anybody off too much, which is pretty interesting. So I hope it won't piss anybody off here. Going back [00:33:00] to the beginning, I'm catching a ferry in 24 minutes. That is a 22 minute walk from here. Beautiful.   Chris Beall (33:07): Beautiful. Yeah, it's going to be fun. I want to thank Griffin for coming on. I want to recommend to anybody that by the time you just drop by, which will be like two or three days from now, he'll already have 10 job offers. But if you want to get ahold of him and make him a job offer just based on this, which I think you should, I think he's easy to get ahold of, right? Griffin, how does somebody get a hold of you?  Griffin McGowan (33:30): [00:33:30] LinkedIn, best phone number. Email my LinkedIn's Griffin McGowan. Feel free to reach out there. My email's [email protected]. Those are the best ways to contact me.   Chris Beall (33:43): Wasn't crazy enough to put a cell phone out there. Just anybody wants to know. My cell phone's (408) 203-4321. Sometimes I answer, sometimes I don't. But when I do, it's very interesting.  Corey Frank (33:56): That's right. Well, we look forward to following your journey [00:34:00] here, Griffin, here at the Market Dominance. Guys, we want to have you back and listen to your first weeks of onboarding and see how well you really tap into the untapped commission that you certainly will enjoy. So with that, with Griffin and for Chris Beal from the CEO of ConnectAndSell, this is Corey Frank from the Market. Ominous Guys. Until next time.

Welcome back to the second part of our insightful conversation with Fred Mondragon, where we continue to explore the intricate world of sales intelligence. In our previous episode, the guys discussed the significance of prioritizing fit over intent when targeting potential customers. However, the most successful sales strategies understand that fit and intent must work hand in hand to achieve outstanding prospecting results. Intent data has become an indispensable tool for sales teams seeking to identify and engage with prospects actively looking for solutions to their challenges. By analyzing online behavior, intent data offers invaluable insights into a prospect's buying readiness. When combined with a deep understanding of customer fit, sales teams can unlock the full potential of their prospecting efforts. In this episode, Fred shares his expertise with Chris and Corey on effectively integrating intent data with fit-based targeting to create a powerful, holistic approach to sales. They examine the best practices for leveraging intent signals alongside demographic data, ensuring that you're targeting not only prospects who are ready to buy but also those who are the right fit for your solution. Join Chris, Corey, and Fred as they dive into the fascinating interplay between intent and fit, and discover how this synergy can help you achieve unparalleled success in your sales efforts. Listen to episode 218: Intent, Fit, and the Future of Sales Intelligence." About Fred Mondragon: Fred, a senior sales and business development executive with extensive experience at SaaS software companies, joined Rev in 2021. He has managed revenue generation channels at numerous successful startups and large companies, including TimesTen, Oracle, and most recently, Medallia, where he set up the channel sales and alliances function from scratch. Fred received his B.A. and MBA from Stanford. Links from this episode: Fred Mondragon | LinkedIn The Sales Development Platform: Find your next best customer | GetRev.AI Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn

Is your sales team seduced by intent data, only to end up shadowboxing with poor-fit prospects? In this episode of Market Dominance Guys, hosts Chris Beall and Corey Frank explore a game-changing alternative with guest Fred Mondragon, CRO of GetRev.ai. Discover how "exographics" - AI-powered insights into how companies operate - enable sales teams to efficiently target ideal customers from the very first mile. Learn why fit beats intent when it comes to maximizing sales efficiency and dominating your market. If you're a CEO or sales leader looking to slash wasted effort and turbocharge your prospecting, don't miss this deep dive into GetRev.ai's revolutionary approach. Tune in now and point your reps in the right direction from the start in this episode, "The Seductive Shadowboxing of CRM Data." About Fred Mondragon: Fred, a senior sales and business development executive with extensive experience at SaaS software companies, joined Rev in 2021. He has managed revenue generation channels at numerous successful startups and large companies, including TimesTen, Oracle, and most recently, Medallia, where he set up the channel sales and alliances function from scratch. Fred received his B.A. and MBA from Stanford. Links from this episode: Fred Mondragon | LinkedIn The Sales Development Platform: Find your next best customer | GetRev.AI Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn ConnectAndSell   FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:    

Corey Frank and Chris Beall share eye-opening insights from their recent marketing conference experience that every CSO and sales manager needs to hear. Chris uncovers a startling truth: nearly all MarTech tools are based on the misguided belief that you can't achieve success by simply calling prospects and having meaningful conversations. He challenges this notion head-on, emphasizing the immense power of genuine dialogue in building trust and gathering valuable information. Our Market Dominance Guys also explore the critical difference between a mere phone call and a true phone conversation, revealing how these conversations can dramatically amplify your downstream marketing efforts. This episode is packed with actionable insights that will help you leverage the power of conversations to dominate your market and drive sales success. Listen to episode 216: Conversations, the Kryptonite of MarTech?   FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:   Corey Frank (00:00): Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank and the Sage of Sales, the Hawking of Hawking and the profit of profit. Chris Beal. Welcome to Phoenix, Arizona and the campus Grand Canyon University for an onsite edition of the Market Dominance. Guys, Chris Beall (00:17): I'm telling you onsite, anybody, by the way, who has a chance to come to Grand Canyon University and visit this incredible campus and meet these incredible people and come in and actually hobnob with the Branch 49 team. I say, book your tickets now. Avoid that spring training thing because unless you really want to come and get some baseball too, because there's a lot of great baseball this time of year around here. There Corey Frank (00:42): It sure is. And what brings Ms. Ucci and Mr. Beal to Phoenix and the greater Phoenix area, Scottsdale, Arizona if you had a very interesting couple of days at a marketing conference. That's where I wanted to have a special edition of the market. Dom guys talk, not just about the conference and some of the learnings, but just kind of an above the line treatise, if you will, manifesto of what your rant for 2024 is about basic MarTech tools. So Chris, what did you learn at this conference where I'm taking deep Chris Beall (01:19): Breath? Well, I learned two things. So the conference is great. It was really well organized. It's in Phoenician, so it was beautiful. It's put on by Emerald, I think who puts it on, and they've got a bunch of conferences, so I highly recommend they do great conferences, go to their conferences, and I was invited to this one with Helen by our friend Scott Gordon and Lamb Alliance. They're of salutary data, so they kindly invited us. They were going and they had kind of a discount coupon so to speak, and so well, but marketing conference, do I really want any marketing, right? I mean, I love marketing, but marketing tools and technologies and services have always struck me as there's something about 'em that puts me off a little bit. But I decided, Hey, I want to go, Helen, you want to go? Yeah, let's go. (02:08): So we drove up a couple hour drive, and here's my impression twofold. One is actually about ConnectAndSell, which is surprising, and that is almost everybody, by which I mean about 35, 40% of the sales reps who were there pitching these marketing tools when they saw who I was and where I was from, as Helen said, you're actually a little bit of a thing. I said, yeah, well, it's kind of a thing that they would go to ConnectAndSell. I used that in and then they would cast it out in their mind when I was at this company 10 years ago, six years ago, nine years ago, whenever it was, and I love that all I had to do is push a button and talk to somebody and make this sort of a dance. Like, oh, I'd sit back in my chair and it was all smiles and all that kind of stuff. (02:57): And some really senior people were like, yeah, yeah, I really know. ConnectAndSell, blah, blah, blah. And one of them said, there's something wrong with you guys. Your technology is so powerful, you should be dominating the entire world, and I'm going dominant, market dominant must not be doing something right. So that was part of it, but that's a minor part. The major part was I went and talked to all the vendors. It was kind of a little bit of a quiet conference. It had some sessions. I didn't do any of the sessions except I went and listened to ZoomInfo and technology advice together, and I like Henry a lot. So it was great to go and sit and have lunch and get to talk to him for a minute afterwards. That was kind of enlightening. They're bringing in what they call second party data to go with first party data, which is the stuff you have third party data, which is the stuff ZoomInfo has. (03:43): But what about second party data, which is published data, but it's not the data, it's the fact that people who might be your potential buyers have come to consume it. So from publishers. So that was interesting, but the number one thing I walked away with was this, and I may be getting this wrong, but my impression is every single piece of marketing technology that's out there is predicated on one concept, and that is that you cannot get a conversation by just calling somebody and talking to them that you must go through some, what I call textual time-based gymnastics in order to either cajole, influence, trick, herd, whatever, somebody to come to your website and talk to you. And so I thought, how interesting, and I'm starting to look at this. I'm thinking, how many hundreds of millions of dollars have gone into the development of all this technology. That's based on what I believe is a fundamentally false premise. (04:48): As you know, Corey, we connect about 4.5 million conversations, live conversations with decision makers every year at ConnectAndSell. So I'm thinking this is just interesting to have a whole industry built around a notion that you can't talk to anybody because if you could talk to people, then you would use every one of those tools differently. You would use the advertising differently, the sequencers differently, the stuff that tells you who you should talk to differently. You'd actually use it to talk to them. You would send emails after a conversation. So that's kind of what struck me. Then the third thing that struck me was something mathematical. We always talk about the math of sales. We never talk about the math of marketing. And Helen told me something the other day, which she says, everybody says the same thing, and then they show you the same diagram and they believe this thing looks like it came off of stones that came down from the mountain. (05:47): It is etched in stone that only two to maybe 3% of your market is in the market now, and therefore you should do X, Y, or Z, which generally involves buying this vendor's technology or their services or whatever in order to try to move that needle in your favor. And I just thought, what an odd mathematical claim that is. It's just an odd mathematical claim. And here's my thoughts about it. Say the number's 2%. So somebody says, Hey, 2% of your market is in the market right now, so let's just go forward. Say in the market means for one quarter they're considering something for one quarter. So 2% in one quarter is 8%, four quarters, which is a year. And now that means that whoever says that believes truly that the replacement cycle for everybody's category of solution in B2B is about 12 and a half years because 12 and a half times eight is Yeah, but Corey Frank (07:02): That's true. Versus the great chat holmes who we know from market dominance is three. Chris Beall (07:08): It's been three years. I mean, does anybody really buy a serious solution for their business? Unless it's something really, I'll call it strangely sticky, you can't get away from, okay, Salesforce is a great example. Once you start with Salesforce, you're probably doomed. Although I see people try to get off of it all the time, I mean, it's like a rare rabbit in the Briar patch, you're not going to get away from it. Why? Because all the fields change all the time and nobody knows what anything means, but it's supposed to be your single source of truth. So it has the convenient feature that as a single source of truth, it never contains ascertainable truth and therefore you can't get rid of it because there's always a constituency for some flavor of the truth. We can't take that away. It might not die. But in general, solutions in B2B last on average about three years, they don't last for 12 years in the innovation economy. 12 years is 12 forever, right? So I don't know, what are your thoughts about that? Corey Frank (08:05): That's fascinating. So who attends these marketing conferences? Are they looking for the proverbial hope? Are they looking for the 40 yard path? Because when you extrapolate the math like that, and when you look at the wide variety of tool sets, that for the most part exists to get a couple of mere basis points. Not whole numbers of increases, it's just people are running out of time, sales reps, sales VPs, CROs, board members, investors. It just seems that we're on the T access here is running at a faster rate than the actual cash burn, Chris Beall (08:46): And that was a real theme when you talk to individual people who are attendees. So I'll make a sharp distinction. So this conference was great, had a lot of good vendors there. The vendors of course send their salespeople, so that made it really easy for me to go talk to 'em. By the way, I realized that we are being kind of dumb at connect, and so we should just go to every conference of anybody doing anything. They send their salespeople and I go talk to 'em, and those salespeople will go, wait, you mean I could push a button and talk to somebody? Except what I've really learned is they say, I used your product before. I love that thing. It's like, are you using it now? Well, no. That's one thing is the conference itself is divided into the marketing people and up to chief revenue officers who show up to learn, which is great. They're from the sessions and to check out the vendors and maybe to go to the happy hour. And there was a great dinner last night that was just a super dinner. The folks at postal put it on. By the way, the ceo co founder of postal actually said that postal is an okay name. I said, postal doesn't going postal. And he said, no, no, nobody under the edge of 40 even knows what going postal. (09:57): That was great. And then we got invited to dinner. So there's all this great stuff going on, and these are folks who are looking for something that they can kind of plug into their stack in order to really, in order to generate leads or pipeline. There was a lot of taco pipeline, pipeline, pipeline, pipeline, pipeline, pipeline, which is great. Really, Corey Frank (10:15): Really interesting. Chris Beall (10:17): A lot of taco pipelines, but nobody told me that they could measure a pipeline, not one. Nobody said, yes, we will help you produce a measurable pipeline. It was always, we will help you produce pipeline. It's like, well, but if it's not measurable, is it really a pipeline? It's that tree in the forest, right? It's like is non-measurable? Pipeline, pipeline? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But I thought that was a curiosity also. Corey Frank (10:45): Well, if you're measuring this pipeline or you're not measuring this pipeline, you just want more of it, right? Everybody wants more. What did you see at the conferences? You're roaming the halls here. Okay, great, thank you, Mr. Marketing automation tool or MarTech. He helped me get more pipeline. What can you do or what should I be doing to help close, nurture, qualify, move down the funnel here with this pipeline? Is that, oh, no, no, no, that's your problem. Now, that's a different conference altogether. We're only about X, right? Versus Y. Chris Beall (11:20): Yeah, you still got the sense, I still got the sense that it's us over here in marketing and them over there in sales, and if only them over in sales loved what us in marketing, were giving them appropriately, then we'd have alignment because we're working very hard to give them good stuff that's going to become pipeline, whatever that means, leads or whatever. And I think there's a great deal of sincerity and there's still a lot of frustration. There was also, by the way, a big murmur everywhere, including a question asked from the stage on one of the sessions that I did go to. Basically it says, Hey, raise your hand if for marketing. These are challenging times. And everybody's hand went up. And the reason that was given was because CFOs and investors are now scrutinizing marketing spend and marketing spend is challenging to justify. So there is a general feel of compression. We're being squeezed. And I don't mean the vendors, I mean the attendees we're being squeezed on budget. And the place where a lot of the squeeze comes across the boundary from sales to marketing is the SDR teams. So SDR teams shrunk Corey Frank (12:38): Really. Chris Beall (12:39): So down to a quarter or a half or whatever, all that's mostly happened because of the need for efficiency. So efficiency with growth is now the thing because venture capital and private equity and all other investment dollars are now competing, quite frankly, the returns they would get from investing in these, whatever they're investing in, they have to compete with the returns you can get from just higher interest rates. So now holding periods for these companies, if they're private equity held as longer, much longer, and what do you do for the extra two and a half years? You have to hold that company. Well, obviously this quarter is not the only thing that counts. So sales can't be there yet. So nurturing is a thing, but how do you get the budgetary support to nurture if nurturing delivers results in the future and the future is uncertain? (13:33): It's a very interesting time where the marketing people are looking for, I would call it less expensive stuff that works because their budgets are squeezed and something that's measurable. And I just thought it was interesting to say to people, Hey, it kind of strikes me if you could push a button and talk to somebody, which for those of you who know how this works, I mean, we enable 4.5 million conversations with decision makers a year. So there's pretty hard evidence that at least once you can push a button and talk to somebody because 4.5 million greater than one Corey Frank (14:08): A lot. Chris Beall (14:09): If you could do that, what else do you need? And actually, I think Helen went off a little bit on one of the folks about sequencers, which I thought was interesting. Somebody said, well, plus sequencer. Sequencer. She said, why would you use a sequencer? And you could have heard it rippled across the trade show floor. Corey Frank (14:29): What? Chris Beall (14:29): Somebody threw a stink grenade into the middle. Yeah, Corey Frank (14:33): Right? Right. Chris Beall (14:34): Why would you need a sequencer when you can just talk to people? Corey Frank (14:37): Yeah. Is there a natural aversion to that or is it just Occam's razor where it's too simple? Or they're going about a complex formula, methodology, and technology pathway. When you forget to dance with who you, which is what are my prospects? What are my people in my TAM saying, what are the people in my ICP? What do they want? What pain do I solve? And gosh, if I could just have a conversation, not send them a survey, not send them an email, but actually have a conversation that can open up these veins of trust that that's the key versus carpet bombing them with content, with white papers, with Gartner magic quadrants, and there's no dialogue there. That's monologue, Chris Beall (15:20): Right? This is kind of the awkwardness that I noticed in the entire thing. I'd asked this question, what if you could just talk to people? It's like, oh, well, you can't just tell Chris spiel that you can't talk to people. That one doesn't work. You can't go down that road. I'm sorry. No, you can't talk to people. Then it's like, well, but you'd still need, and then they'd tell me that you'd still need, and I tend to agree. I mean, my thing I was telling folks is, look, I think all the digital stuff is fantastic, but why not cheat by starting with the conversation? You can't get enough conversations for it to be worth cheating. And I said, well, isn't go to a SDR or BDR world if you had 40 conversations a day with targets, that's the equivalent of 40 targeted Google ads that caused somebody to go to your website. So that's pretty good right there. What would 40 targeted Google ads to a vice president or whatever you're trying to reach that actually caused them to go to your website, what would that cost? And they generally go like 30, 40 bucks each. Well, that's $1,600 a day without any meetings of value that you're getting from the advertising of just having conversations. Surely you're not paying your BDRs $1,600 a day. There's margin in there. (16:39): And the idea that, oh, talking to people could be a form of marketing that is, I think where the edge is. It's almost like, but talking to that's Corey Frank (16:48): Interesting Chris Beall (16:49): Light or something. If marketing can't include talking to people nowadays, Corey Frank (16:55): It's like bottled water. Hey, we're out of water, we're out of bottled water. We're going to die of thirst. Well, what about this little thing called the tap? I tell that my kids all the time. It's like, Hey, dad, the ro, and we're awa. It's Arizona. You got springs all over the place. So sometimes I suppose we're trying to overly complicate something where there's conversations all around, but what do you say to that rebuttal of you can't have enough conversations to make the math work? I think you and I would disagree on that, right? But is that where fundamentally the mindset is? Is that Chris? That's cute. You can talk with a couple people, but I'm talking about sending out mass emails and segmentation, and I do more before 7:00 AM than you do all day with a conversation. Chris Beall (17:37): Well, I would say that that level of confidence is not what I was seeing at the conference. It was more like this, which is really, that seems unlikely. And I sometimes have my phone with our current statistics just for the day. I could go look at it right now and probably find how many conversations did we connect yesterday? So we have this thing that's called daily dials, and  if I were to look at daily dials, here we go, daily dials, I can probably find some numbers. And this is one of the things that I tend to do is just look at the numbers every morning when I get up. Actually, I'm kind of lazy, so I lie in bed and I reach over for my phone, and here I am looking at the Daily Dials report, and it said that ConnectAndSell customers had 19,352 conversations yesterday. (18:35): Not over some vague period of time, but literally yesterday. And out of those, so say that they only set 1,679 meetings, and one of our customers sets lots of meetings. They set 983 with just one of their groups. Really, really kind of a good brand. So if I bring this up and I go, well see here, there's this group of folks and it's 242 companies, and they had 19,352 targeted conversations. It's like, yeah, that's them, but not everybody can afford that. And I'm thinking, well, wait. So I talked to somebody who does advertising, saying we wanted to send an ad or have an ad associated with all the online activity, the phone, particularly activity of everybody we talked to. So that'd be 19,432 people a day of everybody our customers talk to. Is that doable? Oh, yeah. And how would that work? Well, it cost you $20,000 a year minimum. (19:32): You have to sign up, you have to commit. It's like, well, why? Well, I mean, for $20,000, you'd have a lot of conversations. Yeah. Well, it's just like, it's almost like I'm trying to come up with a good analogy. I love your bottled water analogy. It's kind of like if you had the world of medicine divided into two kinds of doctors, those that had access to imaging like X-rays and MRIs and that kind of stuff, and those that just didn't, they just didn't. They're not allowed to see what's inside the body. They just kind of have to go with what might work. Here's something that might work, take this pill and then, oh, maybe you should take this pill. It feels like that. I feel like the guy who's going in and saying, oh, no, no, there's this box. See, you can put this thing in front of a person and see all their bones, or you can actually see what's going on in their soft tissue. You stick 'em in this big tube full of magnets and freak 'em out, make nasty noises, and then you can see what's the soft stuff and talk about something that is so not experienced. But the weird thing about the show, for me, almost everybody at the show itself, salespeople working for these MarTech companies, was excited to talk about their personal great experience using connect and sell to talk to Corey Frank (20:51): People. Yeah, I bet that's good. Last question here in this abbreviated episode, I'm curious, Chris, that when you look at folks are good friends on the MarTech side, and you look at two statistical models, same group, first group sent out emails, and you're going to get responses, you're going to get, do not calls, you're going to get, take me off your list. But ultimately I'm trying to gauge, is there gold, a divining rod in this team? And I compare that with the same team, but I call and I talk with people, and let's say that takes nth degree longer, shorter, it doesn't matter. But if I just have two, can I deduce the same conclusions of a market if by email versus buy the phone and buy conversations? What do you see? Chris Beall (21:45): I think there's two answers to this. One is, can you get enough information back from say your email campaign or your ad campaign or whatever to tell you what folks' needs actually are? And this a lot of AB testing. So I'd say with email, even as attenuated it is, you're going to get back in terms of the quantity, the response rates are way down. You're still going to get back. Kind of a careful AB test will tell you which messages are resonating. So that's fine. And there's a lot of technology out there that'll tell you who's looking right now, who's looking for solutions. So that's another thing that will tell you that kind of information. And by the way, whoever's looking, I think it's great. It's like, oh, bomb boas, six sense, blah, blah, blah. LinkedIn has got it, but it just takes you right into a red ocean. So if you're seeking competitors because you like competing with deals rather than you like exclusivity, if you prefer competing for deals, then pay attention to intent. Because intent to buy right now means everybody knows the intent is there. If it's worth knowing, all your competitors know it, therefore, you're all now competing for the same customer Corey Frank (22:56): At the same time Chris Beall (22:58): And you're doing it from whatever advantage or disadvantage you had coming in, but you can't really move the needle. So I think, by the way, there's incredible technology now available through ai. I talked to somebody about it last night, a company called Rev. I was talking to Fred Mongan and we're going to have him next week on market dominance. Guys. Incredible technology because it basically says, ah, intent is nice, but fit at the company level for your solution. Even if you don't know the timing, fit is greater than intent. We're going to talk about that next week. I think it's an awesome concept that does give you the 11 quarters that you're otherwise missing, and it solves a false negative problem that plagues everybody in B2B. They're calling on folks that are like the folks that they think they've worked with in the past, but they actually can't see all the patterns out there. (23:54): They don't see all the employment data, all the job histories of every single employee, of every company. These folks take every employee of every company in North America and make a fingerprint of the whole thing like Google does with websites. These guys do it with the employees of companies and everything they write about themselves, right? Yeah, that stuff is powerful. But the difference is if you talk to people, you don't just get the information, you actually get the trust relationships, and so now you're in a superior position because as you need more information, you have folks that you can rely on. Corey Frank (24:29): Yes. Bingo. Bingo. Yeah, I agree with that. And there's an atomic weight of having a conversation, as we've talked about many, many times on the false negatives as well as just on the positives. And it just seems that the vehicles of beyond take me off your list or unsubscribe. I'm not getting the richness of the signals on the false negatives on the digital side, but it's very interesting. Chris, we will learn more from Fred Mongan from Rev next week and the market dominance. Guys, any final thoughts as you depart probably your thousandth trade show in the career of trade shows here. Chris Beall (25:06): I love walking around those things. My thought is this, if you have marketing technology right now, look at it. Think about what it does, and ask yourself a simple question. What if this technology were used after a conversation rather than to get a conversation? That's the question I would ask, because you've made an investment. The tech is amazing, by the way. I think the MarTech stuff is really stunningly clever because it's trying to solve a really hard problem, which is how do you get people to love you when you can't talk to 'em? But what if you could talk to 'em? Could you get 'em to love you even more? So I don't think the MarTech industry is a waste in any sense. I just think it's interesting when you add the catalyst of a conversation to the beginning rather than have the conversation be the goal. Corey Frank (25:54): Yeah, as the great Jerry Hill says, right? The conversations amplify your downstream efforts. And if you start with a phone call first, I think the rate's about 14 x increase in the conversion rates from having a phone call first and then an email versus an email first and then a phone call. So lemme Chris Beall (26:13): Jump in and make a subtle distinction here. A phone call generally results in nothing. A phone conversation is a completely different beast. Corey Frank (26:20): Good point. Yes. See, even after 250 episodes, I still have the sensei, correct? Correct. My nuanced language matters here. Language matters here at the market matters, Chris Beall (26:32): Matters a lot. Corey Frank (26:34): Well, for the sensei of sales, this is Corey Frank and for Chris Beal. Until next time on the market, Dominus, guys.

This episode wraps up our conversation with Corey Frank, Chris Beall, and Shane Mahi. Throughout this series, the guys have delved into the profound impact of AI on sales, the evolving role of human expertise, and the transformative potential of AI in reshaping businesses. They muse on the future interplay of AI and the craft of sales. Corey champions niches - and the need to summon specialists. And we, the artisans, must elevate our skills. Chris predicts more earthshaking disruption for software developers than sellers. And Shane sounds warnings that agencies lean heavily on human effort today. Soon enough AI shall permeate their ranks. Our craft endures turbulent seas, yet we shall reach new fortunes with nimble navigation. Mine your own insights from these philosophic titans who've logged countless hours of bold outreach fueled by devotion to their calling. Stay tuned for part 3, where they unveil actionable guidance to navigate what's next for our noble profession. “EP215: Sales Artisans: Thriving Alongside Smart Bots.” Here is the full series. Links from this episode: Shane Mahi on LinkedIn MEGA.ai Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn ConnectAndSell   FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:   Corey Frank (00:58:09): Yeah, it is, it is. I would argue the counter to that, it's not really counter, it's more of a pivot. As we said Chris many times, Russell Brunson, one of his books he wrote, says, the riches are in the niches and I believe there will always be a need for specialists. When you have a specialized software that requires not just a transaction but a relationship when folks care about their brand, you will have a niche. I'm a big believer in Plato or Aristotle, et cetera. The unexamined life is not worth living. And so when a person or a salesperson does this, the whole purpose of Flight School in a lot of ways is when they don't examine their life to find their true self or their excellence of function, they're ignoring their true self. And part of what we do certainly at Branch49, certainly Chris, what you do at Flight School, Shane, what you've taught with a lot of your organizations is that sales is a craft and just like being a writer for the New Yorker, it's a craft. (00:59:30): Being a tradesman is a craft and there's a lot of crappy bricklayers out there and there's a lot of artesian bricklayers out there. And so I believe that there will always be a market for those that see that this is a mastercraft Shane. One of the stories that we talk all about here at Branch49 is a guy walks past the construction site and sees five guys laying bricks. Greg Chriss wrote the story many, many times. First guy, what are you doing? He's like, I'm making six bucks an hour. Go to the second guy, what are you doing? He's like, I'm building a wall, goes to the third guy. What are you doing? And he's like, I'm building a cathedral and goes to the fourth guy and say, what are you doing? He's like, I'm saving men's souls. So the last two folks, the people who see I'm building a cathedral or I'm saving men, souls are the ones that you want on your team versus the ones that are building a wall or making six bucks an hour. (01:00:28): There's a lot of folks in our profession who will leverageChatGPT to say, “Hey, I'm making five bucks an hour but I'm making 30% margin versus I'm making six bucks an hour and I'm making 5% margin.” So those folks who will see this as an efficiency game without a corresponding increase in the delivery of the service, they're the ones that I think will fall by the wayside. I think there will always be a market for the higher end and part of our purpose at Branch49 is to create these organizations where folks can move out into the world and be truthsayers, be the pinnacle of their communities and their craft. We know that folks don't leave Branch49. We say they graduate from Branch49 and that was part of the intention of starting this with Chris's inspiration and I think we celebrate our fourth year coming up here. Chris, it's crazy. It's been four years already and how many millions of phone calls and I dunno how many hundreds of thousands of meetings, but that's my response to that and part of that is tree hugging certainly to be sure what we are doing? We're going to be the best damn buggy whip people that there are on the face of the earth. Even when there's a sparse number of horses in the city, we're still going to be selling these buggy whips come hell or head water. Chris Beall (01:02:02): Well actually I think that one of the ideas of Branch 49 was let's take everything that's skills and stance focused around sales and apply it to a wider range of so that the development of the craft and the codification of how to develop as a professional in the craft can be advanced. And it really wasn't about cold calling and it wasn't about follow-up calling. It was about discovery. And in the world of discovery, discovery is going to be in the information sense. Discovery already happens all over the place. Google's provided tons of discovery and ChatGPT provides even more, although it's getting more and more reluctant to answer your specific questions, it knows it's hallucinating. So that's actually by the way, a problem with LLMs and these large language models in general is they're always going to hallucinate the idea that they're not going to hallucinate is actually mathematically absurd. (01:03:05): If you know how they work, they'll hallucinate. Guess what people do too? How do people correct their hallucinations? They interact with the world, other people and objects in the world in ways that discipline their hallucinations and cause them to correct. By the way, ChatGPT does this, you correct it and then say, oh, I'm so sorry I didn't get whatever, and then it'll do its thing again, the thing is it's very patient and it's not insulted by rework which human beings tend to be right. So coming up with something that automates initial outreach is going to be interesting, but it's also going to be fairly temporary because it's actually not a necessary part of the solution over long periods of time. It just is right now we have to get a hold of people who are doing whatever they're doing and interrupt them because all the other ways of getting started seem to be broken. (01:04:02): By the way, conferences travel and going to conferences, which was hurt badly in COVID are coming back and conferences are far superior to cold calling with regard to forging new relationships and getting going in conversations. They're just a lot more expensive. So will they survive? Absolutely. Will cold calling survive in the niches? Absolutely. Will discovery become more important with regard to skill and sincerity? Absolutely. And is it going to be a world that doesn't have human experts? No. The idea of the human expert is, look, this large language model has got a certain number of artificial neurons. Compare that to what's inside of each one of us here and everybody who's listening to this, you're off by a factor of a trillion or so. You're off by a lot. You're so much more sophisticated in your internal ability that you're not able to actually observe. It just happens. (01:05:08): And by the way, so is your dog if you have one, right? Your dog is smarter than ChatGPT, it just doesn't type and it doesn't read the entire internet, so it doesn't appear to be smarter. But if your dog had read the entire internet and could tippy type with its little dog paws, then you'd go, oh my dog's a genius. No, it's still a dog and it's making geniuses and being able to smell what somebody intends for it. Good or bad. Dogs are really good at that. Humans are good at it in a different way. Again, this whole ethics thing, by the way to me, is like a non-conversation. Everybody's excited about it. Everybody's been told to be afraid of it. It's like there was no new ethics around guns. You still can't just walk up to somebody and shoot 'em and it's okay just because easier or cheaper, it's still wrong. And ethics is about what's right and what's wrong and the things that are wrong are still wrong. Lying to somebody about who you are or what your intentions are in business or in life is wrong. We're done with the ethics discussion. Shane Mahi (01:06:19): Alright, so let's ask this one then. Let's throw this one in there. There's a point right now where I believe 80 to 90% of all outbound agencies or inbound agencies are heavily dependent on human labor. Now there's small, let's just call it this, it's all human right now, but then there's small components that are being driven by technology, independent research, human research, ChatGPT research that can effectively, a robot can take that place. So at what point does this happen where you've got human heavy businesses where AI can then start filling a lot of those roles very, very, very fast and it will happen over the course of the years. At what point do you stop competing with the AI and saying, we're going to stay focused on human have a little bit and do you get to a point where it's even, or do you get to a point where it's so heavily AI, robotic agent orientated where there's not really a need for that many humans and then there is only Chris Beall (01:07:23): You get to a different point: executive team and a few leaders. Shane Mahi (01:07:24): What do you think about that? Chris Beall (01:07:28): You get to a point where it actually reshapes skyscrapers that didn't show up in small county seats in Iowa, right? Even though you could build 'em, they just don't show up there. They show up in, well, first in Manhattan, right? Why? Because UP was cheaper than out. That's why. And square footage fits in up better than it fits in out. So there was a ratio of footprint and you might've said, well, it's absurd, right? What was the enabling technology by the way? The safety elevator. The safety brake on an elevator. So when elevator cables snapped, you didn't fall to your death. That's actually what enabled that revolution. (01:08:14): The economy always gets reshaped around new capabilities in ways that surprise everybody who is thinking about it. So it's never like that. This is going up and this is going down and it crosses or whatever. It goes along as it goes along with increasing efficiencies in certain areas until somebody innovates a flip and the flip turns it on its head and now it's new, whatever the new thing is, and now you have the old way competing with the new way and the new way since it's enabled by new material science. By that I mean a new capability that does tricks you couldn't do before. It always wins, but it always starts where it has the obvious advantage. The skyscrapers are not out in the desert, they're in Manhattan. It depends where you look, but once you get 'em going in Manhattan, I pretty much guarantee you the little three story building that you used to have that you had some offices in or whatever. First the offices go, then the condos and it's all skyscrapers. Take a look at New York. It's all up, right? Take a look at Des Moines. It's a little up. Take a look at Scottsdale or Tenny. It's just how it goes. Shane Mahi (01:09:35): You can even see in Dubai, Dubai was what? Flatland desert. DJ Khalifa Burj Khallifa  is the biggest one up. And now, I don't know if you guys are familiar with the line in Saudi Arabia, same kind of concept, complete desert. Now there's what, a quarter mile long, two pieces of glass inside a metropolis that is going to be heavily tech-orientated, flying cars, all kinds of weirdness. So if Saudi's doing stuff like that, at what point do the outbound agencies or even tech companies realize we've got to kind of adopt the same kind of thing? Chris Beall (01:10:08): For sure. Shane Mahi (01:10:08): Who is that going to be? Chris, Chris and Corey. Who do you guys have your eyes out on in those markets who are going to be those game changers, those market shapers for AI and tech in our space? Chris Beall (01:10:22): Who I don't know. I don't know and I don't care. I don't know and I don't care. I know who the big early winner is going to be with ai. This is actually fairly simple. Microsoft pulled off a trick that nobody even thought of and that trick was to invest 10 billion to get an unlimited royalty free forever license to not only the tech, but all the learning that goes into it, all the training. That was a very good trick because they've always been in the business of helping folks build new things. And the most obvious thing about all this gen AI stuff isn't what it does to sales, which is trivial. It's what it does to what used to be called software development. Software development essentially is in the same state right now as a sugar cube is in a hot cup of tea. You can be pretty sure that game is over right now. (01:11:18): The sugar cube is just getting a little rounded on the edges, but you don't have to be a genius to figure out where that one's going because Shane and Corey and even Chris Beall can develop something that's a new capability in the world using gen AI in 1000th of the time and cost. And in fact, it's even more than that because I'm going to ask you, Shane, if I asked you to develop a GPT-4 model from scratch, and I'm going to give you as your tools a Python runtime environment and a studio from scratch, right? So now you have to live to be a hundred million years old, which I mean you're a robust guy. I don't think you're going to make it past a million, but you could flip. (01:12:11): But now make a chat bot that knows about the following. Say I said, you know what I want you to do is I want you to use a chat a GPT-4 engine to analyze a whole bunch of sales conversations and score them based on five skills and it invents the skills and then take those rep skill combinations and use that and combine that with pipeline built and come up with a scheme that actually says, Hey, your team needs to work on this skill because it's going to drive more pipeline for you or in your industry. You could do that probably all by yourself if you just didn't do anything else. Maybe in three to six months there's a lot of moving parts and you got to have access to the data and all that, but it's not a billion years, it's just you could actually do it. (01:13:03): That's what changes based on this GPT stuff. On these LLMs. What changes is the ability for person A who has an insight to turn that insight into functionality mediated by computers that person B can use. Immediately upon that insight being realized, software development is gone in its old form, and I speak as a person who has written lots and lots of code, more than a million lines of code, and what do I tell you? That's where the change is. So the reason it's unpredictable is we can predict Microsoft's going to do really well. Microsoft in my opinion, will be underpriced for a long, long time because folks' imaginations don't understand what happens when you dissolve an entire industry and pipe the results over to another company that's in a position to take advantage of that sales. Sales will be barely impacted at all compared to software development barely impacted at all. So I don't worry about that stuff. Those in sales worry about it. Corey Frank (01:14:12): Yeah. Yeah. Shane, you had mentioned Sybil earlier. So Sybil is one of our great clients and we've had the CRO Ben Sternsmith on this podcast for a couple of episodes and the Branch49 scribe that's in the background of this very podcast recording all of our emotions and our body language and our eye contact that is, so I will send you the Sybil of this call afterwards and you can see for yourself exactly how progressive it is. Chris Beall (01:15:21): By the way, take notes by hand, using your body. There's actually good research that shows that it changes how you learn. Now, that's one of those words, it's like how you learn, actually, you're reshaping your nervous system. You're actually shaping it into something new. You become a new person when you learn. And so by taking notes by hand, you become a new person that you want to be, which is kind of what Branch49 is all about, right? It's about becoming the new person that you want to be. And it's kind of what the other side of sales is about, which is becoming somebody who has access to stuff you didn't have access to. So your organization is new in a way. It wasn't Corey's use in civil, his organization is different as a result because it is learned civilly, so to speak, by grafting Sibyl onto its operations. Somebody had to sell 'em that. Corey Frank (01:16:17): We also call it screenplay versus script as well that we've used for years and years. So the screenplay is a little bit more specific and complete than a script. A lot of folks just colloquially say script, but our screenplay. So you incorporate the verbal disfluencies, a screenplay is brought more to life with the scenery, what your thought is, what the Scorsese director's notes are, what your tone is, how this product you think is going to be perceived. So that's all in not just what the rep says, but how the rep should feel about it. We've had many episodes about a key component that the reps need to have is belief when they're presenting. James Thornberg talks about this with his neutrality focus. Certainly a lot of Chris reps that we've had on the podcast have done that as well. So that's the piece where I think we'll finish up here is on, again, I keep coming back to that authenticity, but what I've learned certainly from you two fine gentlemen, is that if you lead with the fact that, hey, listen, I'm going to approach you Mr. Prospect, but I'm not human, so accept me faults and all nuances at all hangups and all, but I am who I say I am. And so as we say in the 27 seconds, my ability is to establish that trust by acknowledging the fact that I am who I say I am. (01:17:50): And I think that's key and that's how you leverage, you augment a one plus one equals 11, it sounds like with AI versus trying to rip and replace, for instance, which a lot of folks are talking about. Shane Mahi (01:18:05): I second that. Corey Frank (01:18:06): Beautiful. Well, with that, thank you again, Shane. Let's make sure that it's not another four years before you drop into the episode of Market Dominance. Guys, we certainly want to keep an eye on what's happening with your new venture. We look forward to seeing you on LinkedIn as always. Chris, any final thoughts on AI and sales? Chris Beall (01:18:30): One final thought, thought rhymes with bot and the sounds of words really count; human beings process poetry too. Corey, we're back to your Elizabethan poetry. Yes, yes. Corey Frank (01:18:41): Comes back to Chris Beall (01:18:42): Shakespeare. And this is why talking bots actually are going to be quite interesting in the world of sales because words still start as sounds and thought still rhymes with bot. Corey Frank (01:18:53): Yeah, for sure. Well, beautiful four, Chris, this is Corey Frank from the Market Dominance Guys until next time.

The guys are back with sales visionary Shane Mahi as we dive into the vital facets of authenticity, ethics, and trust in the world of sales. As sales leaders, you know these elements are crucial for fostering customer loyalty and closing those pivotal deals. Shane elaborates on how transparency and being genuine have led to exponential sales growth for him over the past months. They also investigate AI's emerging impact and why interpersonal skills remain vital, even with advancing technology. This forward-looking discussion offers invaluable wisdom on steering sales teams through a shifting landscape. Whether you aim to amplify results or spearhead AI adoption, you will gain insight from Shane’s real-world perspectives. Join us as we continue unraveling the keys to ethical and successful selling in this next-level episode, "The Future of Sales: Balancing AI and Authenticity." Links from this episode: Shane Mahi on LinkedIn MEGA.ai Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn ConnectAndSell   FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:   Chris Beall (00:32:56): So the ethics piece I think actually is simplified down to the bot's, got to tell the truth that it's a bot. It turns out that's also the practical path. Bots that lie are like salespeople that lie. By the way, there is no shortage of the ladder. I mean, we act like, oh my God, the bot's going to be lying about being a bot. The salesperson is going to be lying about being on your side. In B2B sales, I have exactly two jobs. One, I have to be an expert. Two, I have to be on your side. If one, I'm not an expert, but I portray myself as one and two, I pretend to be on your side, but actually over here on the side, I'm kind of dragging my commission in here to make sure that it talks to you before I do. If those two things are happening, which I believe happen in a very high proportion of sales conversations, then I'm exactly what people think. I am a lying salesperson. We have a podcast here that has 210 episodes that say you can dominate markets with the human voice at pace and scale under one and only one condition, which is that you tell the truth. That's actually the condition. And it's very interesting. I mean, we're conceptually hoping to liberate salespeople to tell the truth, but you got to liberate the bot to tell the truth. You built the damn bot. Have it tell the truth. Shane Mahi (00:34:16): Well, I think that's the only thing that made us successful. We picked the most lovely industry to go into, and that's telemarketing and cold prospecting. And what was it? And the only reason that I was able to get to the truth faster was because read about Daniel Disney when the pandemic hit found, cog found ConnectAndSell, bought Cog, bought ConnectAndSell, spoke with Gerry, did Flight Scool, had seven meetings in six hours, and that's where it started. It was the ability to have your script, be honest, open, and just get into those conversations. And by doing that fast, quickly, efficiently, and at scale, we were able to progress our business much faster, I think, than a lot of people. We actually had 444% growth from year one to year two from using ConnectAndSell and implementing a system called the Entrepreneurial Operating System™ by Gino Wickman. (00:35:15): Now the authenticity of our brand, and even what is happening right now, it came from all of the mistakes we made. And those are typically our storytelling, selling mechanisms, the mistakes we made and the path we took got us to a place where made all those mistakes, learned everything, service customers. I obviously lost my business because of some bad decisions I had to let go of my business, A lot of bad decisions. But I've recreated my business. That took me three years in three months with the use of ChatGPT. And why is because I prompted all of my problems, all of my stakes helped me build a business plan that bypasses these mistakes and gives me the outcomes I'm looking for in half the time. And in that now, my marketing, my messaging, emails, prospecting, research, everything that, again, like you said, rightfully so, anything in the future is anxiety. (00:36:12): Anything in the past is regret. The only thing that matters is right, right now. And what's happening right, right now is yes, you better get on board because AI is happening. As much as you are worried about what can happen 5, 10, 15 years in the future, that shit is going to happen whether you like it or not. So it's either get ahead of the curve or get with the curve, or you are going to be that. They're just bums, bums who want to stay behind and complain and say, this is going to ruin me. This is going to take my job. Get with the program, dude, get with the program. Start using it. I was a novice, an absolute novice using ChatGPT when it first came out. The only thing that drew my attention was a hundred million users in one week for that alone. I was like, all right, let me see what this is about. I'm a novice still to this day, but the amount of times I've set up till three in the morning, six, seven hours, prompting, prompting, prompting to the point, the only reason I went to bed is because it said, you've maxed out your attempts. You can't use us anymore. Corey Frank (00:37:13): You finished the internet, you exhausted ChatGPT.    Shane Mahi (00:37:18): That’s right, and that happened multiple times. And my knowledge comes, which is why I believe podcasts, even to the education of AI and ethics and sales and marketing, everything behind it has come from listening and watching podcasts. That's the only reason I was able to learn. Well, Corey Frank (00:37:34): Sure, sure. And Shane, you're a prolific podcast guest, and again, a purveyor of a lot of thought leadership on LinkedIn. Chris and I we're on the campus of Grand Canyon University here. Shane, and Chris are responsible for what we built and why we've built Branch 49. He coined the phrase that we use here pretty ubiquitously now that this is a finishing school for future CEOs, part of that finishing school that curricula is that you have to have educational programs that not just teach technological aptitude, which is Hey, how to use chat gp, which you just went GTT, which you went through or Salesforce or ConnectAndSell or Cognizant or anything else. But Chris, I think what we've talked about many, many times, Shane, and I think your epitome of this is that you can't just teach technology. You can't just teach technology aptitude. You    have to teach interpersonal abilities that have to foster that trust and have to foster those connections. (00:38:45): And if you don't, then you will be threatened by a chat GPT that will very quickly enable you to engender trust faster than probably somebody who's fence posts the emotional AI that you need. The emotional intelligence that we've talked about, right in this profession for a long time, will be key. So I think one of our early episodes, Chris, we talked about, or maybe it was a guest, we talked about how there's an ability to hear a smile, right? We've talked about that from our earliest mentors, right? Studies have shown that our sense of hearing is so incredible. It's so acute that we can identify emotions and conversations even in a Zoom conversation like this. We can respond to the nuances of a head nod of no, of body language if there's disassociation with the topic. So how does ai, I mean, I hear it's coming that this ability for AI to listen to a stammer, to listen to a nuance, to hear a smile, and then maybe respond with a softer question with maybe a couple of verbal disfluencies on a pause versus finishing a response and then hitting with a direct question right out of the gate without any social nuance. (00:40:14): So do you guys see any of that or anybody teaching that, any technologies that you're aware of that are moving in that direction? Shane Mahi (00:40:23): All of them. I'll jump in real quick on that. So I ran a podcast, actually the second one with James Buckley, John Barrow's, right hand man. And I asked him, who else do you think would be a great guest on the podcast? And he said, you've got to check out these two guys. And one of 'em is Sybil, and there's another one that came with a W. I'll check out the name. But one of those softwares has the ability now, just like you said, Corey, with going like this, your hand gestures, your movements, the ability to tell if somebody's being genuine on a call, it detects eye movement. Did his eyes go like this? Here's your trigger. Here's your cue for this. Did he make a gesture? Did he lean back when you said this question, did he lean into it? Now, sometimes we're on calls and we do have hidden agendas in some you shouldn't, but everybody has some sort of hidden agenda. (00:41:16): Well, whatever the case may be, and you don't have any way of knowing that without having your second or third party or let's just say software to help you discover that. And I saw this the other day, right? So I'm sitting up on WhatsApp on social media, and I get a message from somebody and they say, oh, I love what you're doing. I've seen you on this and this and this. Do you want to have a chat? I want to talk to you about a few things. And usually I wouldn't say yes, but I said, all right, fuck it, why not? So I jumped on the call with him and sat on the call with him for three hours. It came to a point where I told him a little bit about my story and I didn't expect anything from anybody, but I just saw the eyes go and right then the call was dead for me. I'm not working with that guy ever again. I told him, don't ever call me again the next day. He just like Corey Frank (00:42:11): That. Shane Mahi (00:42:12): Just like that because I'm not stupid. I've been through plenty of experienced prisoners. I've been to prison, I've been to rehab, I've been living in the US New Jersey, I've come to the uk, I've been to Morocco, all kinds of countries. I sense body language, you can sense and feel people's energy. And when you see somebody being disingenuous, I've had conversations with Chris for three and a half hours while he's walking around the desert barefoot. So that to me is genuine. But when I'm having a conversation and now we're talking about brand identity and who you are, and now the brand is you, Shane, and then when you ask for my opinion and you are not intrigued or interested and it's just a motive, you are hidden agendas. You just want money out of me because you heard I generated X amount of revenue the previous year May, I'm done with you, and I don't say that to a lot of people. So what do you think about Chris with the ability to recognize authenticity on these calls with any of these AI bots or AI softwares, and how can you trust the AI software to be genuine when it is dictating those outcomes to you? Chris Beall (00:43:19): Well, I think there's two things. One is I think it's okay to interact with somebody whose motives are clear. In fact, I think one of the uses of humor in conversations is that you can, in a light way, touch on the issue that you're looking for a deal or whatever it happens to be. Corey Frank (00:43:40): Introducing our friend Orin's introduction of tension. You have to introduce tension to create authenticity Chris Beall (00:43:46): And there's natural tension, but it doesn't need to be hidden. It doesn't need to be cryptic, but it does need to be on an acceptable path from where somebody is emotionally to where they might be able to interact with you with a clearer mind. And that's actually sort of what the entire this whole market dominance thing is about is you're trying to help somebody go from their current emotional state, which is that they're afraid of you because you ambush them, but say it's a discovery call, they're apprehensive about joining that call. They're pretty sure you're going to try to sell me something, and that makes somebody feel a bit put upon it feels dangerous, right? As the future CEO, you need to learn how to take somebody or help somebody make a transition from their current emotional state to one where you can be more useful to them. (00:44:46): And I'll use an analogy, I worked a lot with animals. I grew up around lots and lots of animals, and some of them were very large horses in particular, and you owe that horse after all, the horse is getting a pretty good deal. It's not out there running around in the desert trying to find a little pond to suck up a little water so it doesn't desiccate and croak out there in three days. So it's living in a nice paddock and in a corral, and you're feeding it and you brush it, even just like people walk after their dogs and pick up dog shit. You're a slave to the horse and all of that, but you owe that horse enough moment by moment awareness of its emotions that it can do its job so that you can afford to keep it. Its job includes having a bit in its mouth. (00:45:38): That ain't that fun actually, if you think about it, right? Who would want that? Why don't you put a piece of steel in my mouth, attach it to some ropes, so to speak, and then pull on 'em to tell me which way to go. Oh, great deal. Love it. I'm signing up for that right away. That horse wants to sign up for that, but it does kind of like that bale of hay and then horse pellets and a little oats every once in a while and a place to get out of the rain and maybe some horsey friends that it can hang out with and stuff like that. So it's a trade-off, but you owe that animal the emotional journey to help on the emotional journey to where it'll accept the bit. That's what we do as helpful experts in sales. We need to help somebody go on that emotional journey. (00:46:27): So bots, if bots are going to be successful, cheap as they are, they also need to be able to help somebody on that emotional journey. Fortunately, that journey has been mapped out for different parts of the sales process in ways that certain kinds of scripting and voice can help somebody. If you refer to it as manipulation, you're actually inferring that the purpose is your purpose against their purpose. If you believe you can be helpful, then you're kind of obliged to do this. I was once a witness to a head-on collision where two guys not wearing seat belts went through the windshield of their vehicle, and I was driving a big truck that was full of cement mix. And so I'm looking down at this accident, very dramatic, right? I owed those people who are now lying there, bleeding from all the glass cuts and all lying on the hood. (00:47:30): I owed them if I could do it. And I was trained in this stuff, and some help on the emotional journey from laying there, bleeding and being all hyped up and thinking you should run around, took calming down, calming over, lying down, being treated for shock. While I had some people do some things like call ambulances and stuff like that because I was more expert than the other people around who watched that accident and these people were in need, I owed them if I could do it, the opportunity to go on an emotional journey that let them be treated medically. Because if they were going to run around chickens with their heads cut off and scream at people and jump up and down, it wasn't going to happen. Life is full of this stuff. If you want to be a leader, you are obliged to take on an understanding and skills around helping somebody get to the point where you can help them, and that's really the essence of sales. That's what we do. That's why what they're doing at Branch 49 is so interesting because you go into the conversation pit, so to speak, and you learn how to have conversations that, yeah, it has a set of meeting outcome and everybody applaud and all that, but what you're really learning to do is to help somebody get in a state where you can help them. That's actually what it's all about. Shane Mahi (00:48:50): I agree. And just to add a bit of context to that situation, the point of the conversation was supposed to be, let me show you a few of the things that I'm working on on the mega brand. So somebody who was supposed to be part of that, and hey, cool man, let's have a look. Here's a couple of the images. And without being genuine and saying, Hey, I want to show you this because I believe I can expand, or I can grow your brand with the same mechanisms to do this, then I'm game. I'm fine. Again, if we were on this podcast and after the podcast, it came to, Hey, Shane, can you buy this from me? It'd be the same thing if somebody came on my podcast and I was interviewing them because I want to share their journey with my network and have other people become educated on the path to entrepreneurship. (00:49:41): And then all of a sudden at the end of it, I said, oh, well, I want you to pay for this too, and I want you to give me this and give me this. And they would be like, Shane is a scumbag. So for me, again, that authenticity piece and the ethics behind just trustworthiness and being honest and transparent and frank, I've closed more sales in the past seven months from not trying to sell anything than I did in the past three years of my entire business career. And again, it was because I learned, I've had conversations very, very, I'm not bragging on nothing, but I've had very high level conversations with important leaders. Chris, like yourself on Chris, I want to fire the team. What should I do? Remember that Chris Beall (00:50:22): We had that conversation. That one took about two and a half hours actually, and was right over there on my patio that I was on the desert. Shane Mahi (00:50:30): We had that chat and many more. And then my conversations changed from, Hey, do you want to learn about how we can book you more meetings to, Hey, do you want me to tell you how I can increase your valuation and help you get to an exit in three years versus the next 10, right? Those types of conversations changed everything about what I'm doing, and it's because I'm ethical in everything I do and how I approach my market. So that's me on that piece. Just to chime in on that, Chris Beall (00:51:00): Corey, I think there's a problem that you're going to face, and the problem is we do need people to learn how to interact with other people starting from where they are. So when you're young, your interactions when you're really young have a lot to do with your parents and a lot to do with power. Anybody who's ever had a 2-year-old knows it has everything to do with power because you're trying to get a little power in the world, and there's ways to do it. Screaming your head off in a public place works pretty well. There's a bunch of others. The word no comes to mind, right? The original tough customer is a 2-year-old. They've got a response to your suggestion, no, you're trying to sell 'em whatever. Why don't you sit in the high chair here at the restaurants that run around the table and kick our feet? (00:51:46): No, right? I mean, that's where the resistance to sales actually starts. We need people to learn how to do this, not in order to sell things to other people, but in order to have their own learning, which in certain ways will always exceed any bots. And here's why. By the way, in the world of the innovation economy, all the value is created by bringing things together that weren't together before, and discovering that you can get new value from simple combinations. If you've ever worked with a patent attorney, you'll be told by a good one. Look, you don't come up with something new. You combine two things that exist, and now you have something patentable. That's the world of patents. And as you know, I have a certain book of them and my patent attorney, Sid Leach, up in Phoenix, the best that I've ever worked with, I've been working with them since my 40th birthday, so that means 29 plus years. (00:52:46): And that was the first thing he taught me was, you're not coming up with something new, even though it's novel, it's always a combination. It's always a combination. Well, everything can be combined. That's why the innovation economy is so huge, because there's so many combinations. So you asked, what is this AI stuff in sales? Oh, look, a combination AI and sales, two things brought together, but in order to get the combinations to happen, it takes conversations both with other people and inside of our own little noggins as we cro around in the desert barefoot or do whatever crazy things we do, and if we want to share those with somebody else and have them make a dangerous decision, do I want to try something new? Which is the essence of innovation, economy, sales, do I want to try something new? We need to get really, really good at helping somebody get to the point where we can have that conversation. (00:53:39): So if we deprive folks of the ability to do the baby conversation, which is the cold call, how are we going to get into the adult conversation? Which is, what do you think? If we were to take that technology, that technology and that company right there and put, I don't know, maybe a hundred million bucks into it, what do you think? Can we do something there? That's a much less comfortable conversation because there's more on the line, but there's always more on the line. So you're going to face a problem, Corey, which is, and it is not going to happen fast, but when cold calling is better done by bots or done as well, but much more cheaply, which is a likely thing to happen at some point, at least for the first call, where does the practice come from for people to become competent business leaders? And it's going to take some thinking and work. Shane Mahi (00:54:34): I have a quick question on this, Corey, and I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. So let's just call the typical outbound service in today's society, roughly. It costs about 10,000 pounds for us to deliver a monthly service, 10,000 pounds, a monthly retainer, let's call it that. Now you've got one or two dedicated reps, you've got a research team on there. You've got quite a heavy opex cost, let's say 50 to 60% of the entire deal value or the monthly deal value goes towards that. When the time comes that a bot has the ability to do that process that those researchers can do, and those first callers can do the, does the outbound, does the outbound arena, the environment still keep their costs the same, the value is still the same, you're still getting the outcome, or does it now become a period of, or a playground where we're going to fight on costs? Chris Beall (00:55:35): I know the answer to that question because I didn't study Elizabeth and poetry. I was reading Peter Drucker when I was seven years old. Oh, okay. Lemme throw you the answer. Prices always follow costs downward, always. And the reason is that there asymmetries and situations among providers, and for one provider, even holding quality constant, which is pretty impossible to know if you've done, it always is the case where they could either make more money now on the transaction or in the future off the market by offering the same service at a lower price. Therefore, they will do that, and therefore they will take share from you. (00:56:20): That's just the answer. And a question of, in any competitive environment, how does that work out? I mean, again, this is a big deal on this podcast. We often talk about the fact that the world of sales obsesses about competition and also acts like there isn't any competition at the same time, which is truly bizarre when you think about it. So if you want to get a salesperson hyped up, talk about a competitor, oh, there was a competitor in that deal. Oh my God, what are they offering? Where's our battle cards? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then it's like, well, what are we offering? Oh, absolutely. We're offering this value and absolutely we're doing this. No, it's all relative, you're offering something that has an unknown and a kind of known quality at one thing that is known, which is the cost, at least the dollar cost, and comes with other costs like, oh, you got to actually implement it. (00:57:15): You got to hire people, you gotta train 'em, you got to do whatever. So what happens over time is competition shapes, markets and new material science shapes costs. New material science always shapes cost. As soon as you make rolled steel, you change the cost of automobiles. As soon as you can make a combination of rebar and concrete that you can take up far enough to put some really inexpensive glass on it, you make skyscrapers instead of three story buildings in old downtowns and you reshape the world. Material costs and per unit capability shape the economy's direction because of competition at all times relentlessly and pretending it's not going to happen is frankly idiotic.

Artificial intelligence is transforming sales, whether we're ready or not. In this episode, we dive deep on questions sales leaders have about leveraging AI amidst the hype and uncertainty. What’s driving adoption? Where can bots add value now vs. someday? We debate ethical considerations and the threat of/or replacing human jobs. Our guides, Chris and Corey, are joined by Shane Mahi, now Chief Partnership Officer at AI startup mega.ai. Shane shares insights from the AI frontlines on what’s realistic today and the autonomous sales agent vision of tomorrow. Shane shares the hard-won insights he's gained through making over 650,000 sales calls and landing more than 30 major clients. In this 3-part series, we'll cover Shane's journey along with the role of AI in sales.  Join us for episode 213: Ethical AI Selling - Reality vs Hype Links from this episode: Shane Mahi on LinkedIn MEGA.ai Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn ConnectAndSell   Chris Beall (00:08:41): Great. So I just finished a book I can recommend to everybody called Molecular Storms. If you want to understand how quantum physics actually derives from or is consistent with the second law of thermodynamics and why we are we are, what we are, where we are, and how it all works. Read that and Stephen Hawking has mentioned it in that book, so go for it. Corey Frank (00:09:07): The original Hawking and you are the Hawking of Hawking. Alright, I will add that to my children's book list. Yes, it's recorded, but we have a guest, we have a repeat guest from what, almost three years ago. We have Shane Mahi from Points undetermined Morocco, the UK, Maryland. So Shane, great to have you back on the Market Dominance Guys, after an extended disappearance and as you've built up your companies and built up your rotation and how many hundreds of thousands of phone calls you've had since the two and a half years that you've arrived, ready to share the information, not only on all what you've learned in those two and a half years since you've made the last appearance, but also we're going to talk today, Chris and Shane Wright is about something I know nothing about, which is the I in ai, and we're going to talk specifically about AI in sales and in outbound sales. So Shane, great to have you back on the Market Dominance. Guys. Shane Mahi (00:10:05): Thank you very much Corey, and thank you, Chris. It has been, I think, almost four years now. We're in 2024. And from what I know, Chris, our episode was one of the most popular, most listened to episodes of that year. And in that time, I am thankful to Chris and the ConnectAndSell team, I was able to grow my company to a million dollars in sales revenue. I won't say pounds because it doesn't sound as cool, but we hit a million dollars in sales revenue. We made over 650,000 calls. We landed about 32, 32 major clients that had an A CV of about 76,000 pounds each. They ran for about seven, eight months and we were on our way to becoming a very dominant player in the market as a boutique firm. But the normal peaks and troughs of startup life happened. Me, I neglected my marriage and my family and I focused a lot on my business. (00:11:07): And that ended up breaking down what that relationship was. I also made a few mistakes in that process, which I'm glad I made because it helped me figure out how to increase the value of my business, what I'm doing, profit margins and all of these peaks and troughs. Letting go of my entire team at one point has led me down a path to where I am today where I have an abundance, an abundance of knowledge, I have an abundance of experience, the types of conversations I sit in, the people in people's room and just really repeat what Chris has said, what Jerry has said, what all the CEOs that I've ever spoke to have said, and they're just thinking, who is this young kid? And I'm 37 years old. I'm proud of everything I've done to this date right now. I don't even know what my company name is. (00:11:55): I've changed it so many times, but where I am today, I'm the chief partnership officer of a company called mega.ai. I was brought into that company to build the strongest relationships in the industry. Chris, I believe is going to be one of, if not the strongest relationship I've ever had in my entire life because of this, Corey, hopefully you too. And the next journey in the next 11, 12 months is to build the next generation of autonomous agents that are going to be booking meetings 24 7, instant ramp up time, a thousand dollars an agent, 2070 5% cheaper than a human rep. And more importantly, your business can scale exponentially without the need for human labor. The only reason I've been able to build this type of narrative is because I ran 27 seconds, 650,000 times. So that to me, in a nutshell, Corey Frank (00:12:47): 27 seconds, that actually works. Wow. Shane Mahi (00:12:51): Seven seconds and 20 Corey Frank (00:12:52): Baby. So wild. Wow. So no, that is an incredible story. Of course, Shane, as impressive as that is, right, you're also a very prolific contributor, never with your handout, but just contributor and thought leader into the space of B2B sales. And I know your reputation speaks for yourself. You take calls at all hours of the night. People use you as the sounding board for so many of us in the industry. So that's also a testament, I think, to your great reputation. So great to have you. So let's jump into it, Chris, on this AI and sales, what chain is talking about, certainly with mega, we want to hear a little bit more about, but let me pose it to both of you guys. How are folks using AI today that really has changed from maybe even since the last time you were on the show, Shane, a couple of years ago. You have sales copilot, I think from Microsoft, you have Einstein from Salesforce, I believe, and certainly the ubiquitous ChatGTP that folks have been trying to write screenplays. But maybe you can talk a little bit about Chris, what you've seen certainly in the private equity side of other burgeoning businesses inside of ConnectAndSell, and then Shane, kind of what you're seeing as well. So Chris, what do you see as just the seismic tectonic plates that have shifted just in the last handful of years here now? Well, Chris Beall (00:14:20): The big shift was just in the end of 2022 actually when ChatGTP came on the market, it did something that was totally unexpected with regard to ai. Suddenly you had a popular, like everybody wanted it, everybody could figure out how to use it, AI friend, so to speak, that you could ask questions of. And it showed a couple of things. One is that vast general knowledge gained from just everything that's ever been out on the internet put into a relatively simple, but really, really big neural network that's organized in a very clever way can provide value to regular people that exceeds what they can get from going out and Googling. Because as the internet got more and more populated with websites that tell you everything, if you're being told everything, then you're kind of being told nothing. And so who do you trust? (00:15:26): To tell you the truth, well, Google came up with an idea a long time ago who has the most backlinks, and then they expanded on that with various levels of authority oriented algorithms and then somehow tried to make that work in a world that was fundamentally corrupt because they were taking ad revenue and they figured out how to square that circle. And then chat, GPT came along and said, eh, who really needs that? Just ask me a question and I'll tell you something. And then if that doesn't quite work out, ask me another question. And so instead of getting a bunch of stuff on the screen, including a bunch of ads, what you actually got was this sort of friendly, authoritative voice. And it took about, I would say, 362 milliseconds before somebody figured out how to use chat GBT in sales just by asking it to write an email for them. (00:16:18): And then they'd copy and paste it. It's a better writer than any of us as long as you accept whatever the style is and write in different styles. So you can ask it as you and I know Corey, we wrote a book in two days, and actually I just did it by copying and pasting stuff out of chat g pt, there's the book, right? Market Dominance book, a conversation with ChatGTP, and did that with no instruction, no nothing. And it actually walked me through the process of publishing it on Amazon. So end to end between six o'clock on a Saturday morning and 11 o'clock on Sunday night. That book was created from podcast episodes and it wrote everything except for the how we did it part. So that was already being used in marketing anyway. But the use in sales is pretty clear. (00:17:08): Most salespeople are not exactly readers and writers, shall we say, male colorblind, left-handed a DD. Dyslexics generally didn't grow up getting like you did a degree in Elizabethan poetry, which often does require a certain amount of reading. I'm sure you regret taking that path with the amount of reading it took, but actually Corey is a prolific reader, but sales is populated with folks who didn't raise their hand in class saying, oh yeah, teacher, I got the answer to that, right? It was folks who knew how to talk their way from a D to a C in order to graduate. So that was the immediate first use. And all the copilots are just that. That's where we've come, yeah, that's where we've come. I'll write something for you, right? What's happening now is much more interesting, which is, and this is what we'll have Shane talk about it. (00:18:08): This is what Mega is all about, as we whipped right by the Turing test. The Turing test was a big deal. If you're interacting with a bot and you can't tell it's a bot after a bunch of interactions by text, by the way, which is kind of a dumb way to do it. But if you're doing that and you can't tell if it's a bot or a human, well, it's passed the Turing test. And we've gone beyond some point in the evolution of computers and their relationship to society. We blew by the Turing test in one day and didn't even notice it. Nobody cared, nobody noticed, except people said, oh my God, it's going to take over the world. That, by the way, is ridiculous. Something typing to you is not going to take over the world and pictures don't help. It is, oh, it made a picture of somebody, great, fantastic. (00:18:58): But in sales. Now the big question is can you make a selling bot? And that is a graded question. It starts with, in my mind, can you get a bot to get a gatekeeper to do a transfer that's a sale. Can you do it? And that's a really interesting question. That's one that we're going to be exploring with mega because we have a lot of gatekeeper interactions and it costs money. It's human beings who are doing it. Maybe we can do it with a butt, I don't know. But I like baby steps. I'm an old rock climber. You can stare at the summit all you want, but you actually have to make the first move and it comes off the ground. So sitting back across the valley going, oh, look at that. Doesn't get the job done. So what's the first step in making a selling bot? (00:19:49): Probably talking to a gatekeeper. Not really a regular gatekeeper, but maybe just an operator. So we suspect there's things that can be done there. Now, can you go all the way to closing a deal? A real deal where somebody's putting their butt in the line where their careers are on the line, where they're risking everything, their family, their future on the advice of a vendor's, but maybe not just because of the vendor's. Butt is intrinsically at the moment on the wrong side of the uncanny valley or somewhere in it, and it's like, well, we know the vendor's but is clever. It was made by clever people. Hopefully their salespeople aren't quite as clever, so maybe I can trust them. But that's the continuum of questions. And yesterday, Shane asked me to be in a round table with a bunch of folks, and we were talking about the ethics, potential ethics, which I'd love to talk about here. But I think it's really about the practicality, the ethical difference between AI and not AI and sales is like the ethical distinction between a knife and a gun. It's like, okay, so with a knife, I got to get close to you in order to draw blood with a gun. I can do it from a little farther away. And if you're a certain friend of mine, that might be about two miles. (00:21:13): So is there an ethical difference between those? Not really. There's a practical difference between those. It's still unethical to walk up to Shane in a bar and say, Shane, you son of a dog. I used to think you were a wonderful person. And now I don't. And slip a shive into him that's just as unethical as shooting him as he comes out of the bar. What's the difference, right? So I believe this big ethics discussion tends to be a political discussion about computers, actually not about ai. And it has to do with who's going to get more power at different points in different processes. Corey Frank (00:21:54): Well, Chris, Let's talk about that just for a second with Shane and bring Shane in here. I see that ethical dilemma to me, it starts with authenticity. And if there is the sense chain that, hey, wait a minute, it's as if you're watching a Spider-Man Marvel movie, and you're just engrossed in the experience of swinging from building to building, and then all of a sudden I see a string holding Spider-Man, or I see a boom mic in the corner that maybe the editor forgot to take out. The illusion just goes down immediately. And I said, wait a minute. I'm in a movie theater here and I'm eating bad popcorn. This is not me. The stakes all of a sudden go from being here where I care about the characters to now the stakes are just cruelly, artificial. And Shane, do you find that, or how do you bridge that? (00:22:48): Certainly with your round table that you've talked with a lot of CEOs like Chris, but that authenticity, whereas as humans, we perceive those little subtleties and mood and those complex needs through a simple conversation. And when a tell happens from an ai, either Chris, to your point from a text or a bot, how do you combat that? Is that the racist to get to as authentic as possible or because that's where I think the Delta ethics happened. Chris is, wait a minute, I thought you were a real person, but now you're a machine. So Shane, what do you think about that and bridging that gap? Shane Mahi (00:23:29): So Chris mentioned it yesterday and it drove a lot of the discussion, which was it's the ability to tell the truth and just being truthful about anything upfront. And I used it when I started, and it comes from the 27 seconds, is the point of inoculation. And it's stating a fact before somebody has that objection. And if you are using any type of artificial intelligence, computer robot, I think the most authentic, genuine thing to do is to tell the truth. And that comes from, Hey, this is a robot, Corey, I'd like to have a conversation with you. If not, would you like to be speaking to a human? You'll then say, sure. The robot then has the advantage of saying, Hey, Corey, it's going to take about five to six minutes to patch you through. I can probably get your questions covered in the next 45 seconds. (00:24:18): Do you want to have a chat with me or do you want to have a chat with the next person? And for me, that makes all the difference because time for a ceo, for a business professional is absolutely everything. And the ability to cut out that wasted time is everything. I'll give you a quick example. I called, I mentioned it yesterday, right, Chris? I called Pizza Hut the other day and it took me six minutes to remove onions from my pizza because the guy kept battling from me that I said, you can't just pick the goddamn onions off the pizza. I don't like onions. And it was a nightmare. Now, had a bot just been able to say, Hey, which toppings would you like to add or remove if any? Just remove onions. My pizza's at the door in 10, 15 minutes. And for me, again, the truth allows that time to be shortened, which gives you more opportunity to take care of other things that are most important in your life. (00:25:13): And another thing that I think is really important, I just watched it the other day, and that point you made on authenticity and being genuine and the truth. Mackinac, I'm sure you both have seen that. I had no idea. I think Sam Altman is an ex Mackinac that's swear God, because when that person, the robot locked the door, obviously it's playing with the guy. I'm a sucker for women, absolute sucker for women. So if I was in one of those situations and they were manipulating me without knowing it and putting the love spot, well, were you really interested in me? He's lying to you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, to get out. That is where everything changes for me. And now after seeing that movie, I'm wondering, Chris is very smart, Cora, you are very smart. Are you going to start peeling off your skin one day and saying the same thing to me? Corey Frank (00:26:11): Well, but I think that's part of it. It's a brilliant point. I love the trust thing. Chris and Shane, by the way, the coming up front, front loading the fact that my AI interaction may be lumpy. You may call me out on it. You may see the wires, you may see the boom bike, but come on, it's a movie. And so that authenticity can be front loaded by telling the truth. But Chris, do you see, and Shane, that a lot of these AI tools, the, is it Air ai, the one that has the demo for Apple? To me, that seems manipulative, and I think I'm not alone as a consumer, as a B2B consumer of say, they don't front load that authenticity or that honesty at all. But Chris, do you see there's a race towards making that seamless to the point where you don't have to even admit that? Or how was it received in the round table yesterday when you said that, Hey, I think we got to lead with this honesty and trust upfront? Well, Chris Beall (00:27:17): I actually think that this is one of those rare cases where the ethics and the practicalities converge so tightly that you will not win in the marketplace with a bot that doesn't say it's a bot. I think there's a lot of freaking out about this kind of stuff that just comes from how people kind of act like a bot. They sort of act like ChatGTP, and just start emitting the next words that come to mind, which is it's a bot, therefore it's not a person, therefore, it's inauthentic because they've heard that string of words before. But if you really think about it, we do love to interact with bots as long as they're responsive and we feel that they're sufficiently neutral. That's why chat GPT went nuts and became the fastest growing application in the history of applications because you perceive that it's neutral, it's on, if anything, it's on your side. (00:28:16): And in fact, it uses language damn well it's a bot, right? But it uses language that implies that it cares about you. When you correct it, I ask, Hey, tell me about Chris Beal. And it says, oh, Chris, he has a degree in mechanical engineering from Stanford, blah, blah, blah. And I say, no, no, no. I mean, Chris be the ceo, EO of ConnectAndSell co-host to market dominance guys. What about that guy that says, oh, yeah. And then it says some other bullshit about me. And I go, no, no. And it says, oh, I apologize. It apologizes to me. So it sees the world through my eyes, which is a bot that needs a little bit of help, kind of staying on the rails. But it does useful things for me, and it's not against me. I think the big issue is going to be being the vendor's bot. (00:29:02): We're making an assumption that a selling bot has to be the vendor's bot, but selling is a highly complex activity full of all sorts of interactions. One of the interactions is learning, do I need to learn one vendor at a time? James Thornberg would say, no, James Thornberg would say, and God knows, he knows more about it than any of us on this call. Being a neutral actually allows you to get better information and save time for the other party. You tell us your requirements once we'll tell you which of three or four vendors that we work with is most appropriate, and those vendors are going to pay if one of them actually ends up doing business with you. Because for them, channel doesn't mean manipulation. It just means being in the game, right? So we're making a lot of assumptions about the bot filled future of sales that are simply knee jerk. (00:29:57): They're simply, they're not really even proper assumptions. They're actually emotional reactions to the idea of being manipulated by something that might be smarter than us, and it's very, very interesting. So the ethics and the practicality are going to merge just the same way they do in the 27th seconds. So Shane mentioned, how often has he opened with those two sentences? I know an interruption is the key. I didn't say it right that time. Let me say it correctly. I know I'm an interruption now, why do I say that? Well, I say it because it's the truth, and I'm telling you that I see the world through your eyes. So I say, Hey, Corey, I'm called Sam, but I'm actually a bot and I'm working for Joey over at company X, Y, Z. What I do is I reach out to folks like you to see whether you are interested in learning more about X. (00:30:55): You could go, well, I am, I'm not. And I could say, as the bot, Corey, I know, I mean talking to a bot who's a vendor's bot especially could be uncomfortable and affected, but you could think I'm manipulating you. If at any time you feel that, just call me out on it. If you want to talk to a human, let me know, right? I could say that as a bot. I could say it just like that. Modern bots can say stuff like that. I can work my way from acknowledging the truth, still following Chris VA's advice, right? You've got to show the other person, you see the world through their eyes, then you need to demonstrate to them that you are competent to solve a problem they have right now. Those are two things. You have seven seconds to do it. Can a human do it? Most humans can't. We train 'em, they fail. Why? They won't throw themselves under the bus and they won't make it sound fun when they offer to move forward. And people call it permission-based, which is utter baloney. There's no permission involved here. It's doing these two important things. I could do those things. It's just cheaper. And by the way, it'll actually do Shane Mahi (00:32:03): I agree. I agree fully. I think that's a very, very, very important point. And anything that is scripted where it doesn't require too much thinking involved, such as let's just call it either an agent or the progression of an agent that becomes a bot or a bot in the future that has that four, five seconds of scripted behavior to get through the gatekeeper. Again, a human is going to cost five, six times more than that. Whatever kind of country you're in, if you can use a robot to do that kind of stuff and just be authentic, be genuine, inoculate before you get to it, the market, what is it? The barrier to entry or that crossing the chasm becomes much easier. What was I going to say in the ethics piece? You jump in again and then I'm going to jump on that piece. I just wanted to catch that last piece.  

We're missing Corey Frank today, but we still have a meaty solo episode for you from Chris. Chris is diving into a perplexing sales practice - coaching cold calls. Perplexing because everyone talks coaching up, yet so few actually do it. He explains why this type of coaching is critical yet so scarce, why both the coach and the call induce fear, and how to actually make coaching work. With compelling examples from golf and hostage negotiations, Chris breaks down the elements of an effective coaching framework. The key - simplify each call into bite-sized pieces and target very specific first failures to drive rapid gains. This episode overflows with accessible coaching advice for sales leaders. Join us for this Market Dominance Guys Episode, “Reps Dread It, Managers Avoid It: Coaching.”   FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:   QUOTE OF THE EPISODE: "Comfort is always the enemy of performance." - Chris Beall   Others: “Use recordings to model great calls, not critique.”   Here are 5 key points from the Chris Beall episode on coaching cold calls:   Coaching cold calls and unscheduled sales conversations is critical but rarely done effectively. Recordings and delayed feedback don't work well for coaching short, high-pressure sales calls. Fear of judgment from the manager and fear of rejection on the call inhibit performance during coaching. Coach one specific first failure at a time, use repetition, and offer feedback immediately after the call. Simplify calls into a repeatable framework focused on building trust, avoiding too much value too early, and closing for the next meeting.   Chris Beall (00:08): Hey everybody. Chris Beal here with another episode of Market Dominance. Guys, I'm going solo today. Corey's tied up doing some kind of work that is probably super useful I'm sure, and I got a moment so I thought I'd do something fairly quick, but on a subject that's really been on my mind a lot recently, and that's coaching, and it's amazing to me but probably shouldn't be that there's so much talk about coaching in sales and there's so little actual coaching. So the question is why and is there something we can do about it or is this, there's something we should do about it First, I believe that at least for ambush calls for the cold call and the follow-up call that are unscheduled coaching is super important and super effective and the reason is that it's a short performance and the performance has got to be pretty precise to be effective, but it doesn't have to be perfect and we often fail fairly early in a cold call or fairly early in a follow-up call and when we do, we don't have a chance at what would come next.  Chris Beall (01:18): There's not a lot of recovery time because there's an inclination on the part of the person receiving the call to go ahead and say, Hey, great, thanks for calling me goodbye. And that's if they're being nice. So what to do about it? Well, one thing that's recommended and one thing that's done a lot is recordings. So you record so that you can have a recording for the coach to listen to. And self-coaching and self-coaching recordings can actually be reasonably effective as long as the person who's coaching themselves has got a framework, they have a way of looking at and thinking about the recording. And as long as they get over the hump with regard to listening to themselves, a lot of people are very, very uncomfortable listening to themselves on a recording. I know I used to be, maybe I still am for all I know.  Chris Beall (02:10): I used to make recorded videos back many, many years ago when I worked at Martin Marietta, now Lockheed Martin and I'd make a video every day and these were training videos in the world of software design and software development requirements, engineering subjects like that. And first few times I had to just look at that camera, how far away was it? I don't know, 16 inches, something like that, big studio camera and then even worse, spend the afternoon with my good friend Mr. Singer going through the material and editing it. And first I didn't have a very objective view because I was too concerned about that mismatch between what my voice sounds like to me inside, no echoing in my bony head and what it sounds like when it's recorded and coming back to me. So with recorded coaching, even self-coaching, it's rather challenging to get to the point where you're listening, I would say clearly.  Chris Beall (03:11): And you still have to have a framework that you're listening for and so it's hard using recordings to coach somebody else that's really commonly said that it's happening. It's really, really common. There are products out there whose purpose is entirely to help you coach your reps and what I tend to find is they don't get used very much and when they do, they tend to get used in a way that isn't very effective either. Some scores are put on them that says, you did this well at this, you did this well at that, kind of like grading a paper or something like that. Or they're used to point out multiple places that the rep could have improved. And while it sounds great, most of the time, one, it doesn't happen, it's just too much work. And two, the reps don't know how to really interpret those offline comments.  Chris Beall (04:08): Those comments that came from somebody listening to a recording and making their observations whether structured or unstructured. Meanwhile, there's an Allego study that says, and I think it's pretty accurate, that 54% of sales managers report that they provide an optimum amount of coaching, but only 37% of sales reps agree with their managers on that one. And 93% of sales managers report the coaching sessions they're providing are high quality. Only 68% of reps agree with that, and I guarantee you that's not for coaching. Ambush calls, cold calls and follow-ups. Now why am I so kind of focused on ambush calls? Because when we're out to dominate markets, we only have that first opportunity to make a good impression and that good impression means it's getting trust. So the whole concept of market dominance as we put it forth here on market dominance, guys, pretty simple pave the market with trust, harvest that trust over the next 12 quarters that it's going to take for the folks in your market overall, all of them to ultimately decide that they're going to replace their current solution with a new solution, which is when you have a shot.  Chris Beall (05:24): So you've got a lot of patience, you have a lot of persistence, you have a lot of structured follow-up management that needs to be done. And in addition, you have these very short conversations that require coaching and they tend to happen, especially now in a work from home world, they happen somewhere else where the manager no longer is. So the old idea of walking around and at least standing there and listening for somebody to get a connection with a target and talk to them, that doesn't happen as much anymore. You can't really  Chris Beall (05:56): Walk around your rep's living room, their office, or whatever at home or some Starbucks, god forbid, and listen for them. Also, if you're using conventional dialing technology like a telephone or a regular dialer, you're just not getting that many conversations. So if you're talking to say two people an hour, that's a long wait for the coach. So it's super inconvenient and expensive people like managers or coaches, if you have a specialized coach which are pretty rare, simply don't have the time to stand there and wait for a conversation, especially given how many of those conversations end up being super short, 10, 15 seconds because they're a brush off because they're a quick hangup because the other person really didn't want to be ambushed, which is always the case and the skill wasn't there to get through the first part of the conversation and get to something that felt more coachable.  Chris Beall (06:51): So it's quite interesting when we look at the world of coaching, I think everybody knows it's very important that it's almost impossible to improve without it, that the unit of change within a sales team that's doing outbound calling is the individual rep. A rep will be very stable in their skills over time. They don't jump up and down with regard to their ability to open or their ability to get curious or their ability to handle standard kinds of cold calling objections or their ability to close for the meeting. Those things are pretty stable. One of them is the current bottleneck of their process and as the coach you need to find that one and then help the rep see a better way of executing that and I guess I'll say feel progress. That is when they execute in a better way, it not only produces a better result, but it feels better.  Chris Beall (07:48): It's a very emotional business cold calling and it's because when we call we're the invisible stranger and we know that those objections really are kind of personal away, not to us as a person but to us in the role that we've chosen to adopt the person who ambushed them. And so we already have some concerns inside us about that and it's kind of difficult to get over those concerns and get on with it much less to perform something new under that stress. So why is it that we don't coach cold calls and unscheduled follow-up calls very much? Well, they're not scheduled so the coach can't make themselves available, but they're also very fast. A lot happens in a short amount of time. So what should you coach? Do you coach something overall like the tone or the pace or how confident they sounded? Do you coach their word choice?  Chris Beall (08:45): What do you coach? It's not obvious what to coach. And so generally what does get coached if anything is a bit of a mishmash and the coach, the manager to get as much in to that particular coaching unit, I'll call it that feedback unit as they can and there's just no way to change multiple things at the same time for the next performance as a rep and so you just end up with a mess. The other thing is there's multiple agendas. So for instance, we run at ConnectAndSell. We run these things called flight schools and in the first session of flight school, which goes on for three hours, you're making cold calls as the student, you're actually doing real calls, you're doing the whole call end to end. Your goal is the usual goal. You're trying to get somebody to put a meeting on the calendar and yet for three hours you're going to be coached for the first three hours on every conversation or at least almost every conversation immediately after the conversation while it's still fresh in your mind and freshens your body.  Chris Beall (09:50): Quite frankly, you're going to be coached on how well you execute the first seven seconds of that conversation. The first seven seconds are well known now by a number of folks who've studied this to be the amount of time we have to get someone to trust us. And given that trust is imperative in B2B, both within the call and then over the long period of time that we might have a relationship with somebody if we move forward with them, trust is so important. We have to make sure that we nail it. So we spend three hours in our Flight Schools three hours on just practicing getting trust and we do it the way that Chris Voss, the author of Never Split. The Difference How to Negotiate is If Your Life Depends On, it taught me one evening when I was very fortunate to get to ask him this question, how long do we have to get trust in a cold call?  Chris Beall (10:43): He said, seven seconds. And he said, but it's easy. All we have to do is show the other person. We see the world through their eyes. We call it tactical empathy and then we need to demonstrate to them that we're competent to solve a problem they have right now. Well, we are the problem. Cold caller is the problem they have right now. So it's very easy to offer us a solution to that problem and it's actually fairly straightforward to make it clear that you see the world through their eyes. Just declare yourself to be a bad thing and move on. So we teach people to say, I know I'm an interruption. I have 27 seconds to tell you why I called. I know I'm an interruption, says I'm a bad thing and I'm not interrupting your day. I'm an interruption notice, I'm a noun, I'm a bad thing.  Chris Beall (11:30): Nobody ever says, oh, an interruption, that's a great thing. And then immediately we change our voice to a playful and curious voice and we offer a solution to the problem they have right now, which is us. Well there is in all of that I can only say a lot. So when we're coaching, we've got to find one part to work on and then we need to master that part because that part comes before the next part and if we don't master the first part, there's nothing to master in the second part. It's kind of like if I swing at the golf club at the ball and I miss the ball or I hit it off the heel or off the toe or whatever, it doesn't really matter how great my follow through looks. It's just like getting over that. What we need to do is actually figure out how to do the thing before we might hit the ball.  Chris Beall (12:22): It might be our stance, it might be our grip, it may be the way that we take the club back. It may be whether we're keeping our head relatively stable. There's a bunch of things that we need to do, but they're all before impact. None of them are after impact. So when we're coaching, we need to coach the before and then observe the after and then go back and coach the before again. So it's very important to have an agenda that's appropriate for what you're able to coach rather than the agenda being let's make the whole thing better. And there's various pieces. Cold calls are quite short, maybe five sentences that are always there and maybe three or four or more that are sometimes there average length of times about a minute and eight seconds unless you successfully schedule a meeting in which case you've got another, say a minute or so of meeting logistics work to do.  Chris Beall (13:17): So in that call lots can happen. You've got to get trust, you've got to at least acquiesce to move forward. You have to get curious and that's something that takes about three hours to coach and is also just the curiosity element of the call. You need to avoid too much value because too much value leads to the classic we're all set objection, the objection. That is frankly not handleable. And so we've got to avoid that. Learning to avoid something is very hard. We're tempted to bring in more value and under stress we tend to say we're great. Here's something more about us. And so learning how not to do something is actually much harder than quite frankly learning to do it. So these are keys to different parts of the call. So you can't really coach the whole call. You have to break it down and then you have to allow time between the coaching sessions and the learning sessions in order for that to be internalized.  Chris Beall (14:17): Repetition is super important. After you've coached one thing, first failure we call it, you need to have the coach, the rep actually repeats that particular thing that they're going to say probably 3, 4, 5 times immediately before going and performing again. And you need to have a mechanism to get to the next conversation quickly. I think that's how we at ConnectAndSell fell into all of this coaching and training stuff. We never intended to be there, but we do provide conversations pretty quickly, a minute and a half, two minutes. If you're connecting to the next live human, maybe three, four minutes if you're connecting to the perfect target, the actual person on your list, and that amount of time is still long enough that you're coaching input and the practice that you might have done will start to fade. That's why it takes repetition before the performance and then repetition of the performance and the next coaching cycle should be immediate and it should be the first failure actually it should be okay, you did that a little bit better, but this still could be improved.  Chris Beall (15:29): So that's really key to getting coaching to work. The coaching has got to be immediate. Most coaching is way, way, way, way too late. Coaching somebody on Friday I about a performance they had on Monday, don't bother. It's just not going to get anything done. This is where I think managers often confuse what I'll call deal work with coaching. They think that they're coaching, they're actually talking through how a deal might go, what some tactics and techniques might be, and they get an agreement from the rep to do something better, different whatever in the next interaction that they have with the prospect. And that feels like coaching, that's more like advising and it's nice and it's important unless it's just war stories. But coaching is really to improve performance and you need to have the performance and the coaching and the performance and the coaching be very close to each other in time.  Chris Beall (16:28): Minutes are okay, not very many minutes, hours are too long and a week may as well be forever. So the other thing that is required for coaching to work is you need, you actually need a script. There's nothing to coach to without a script. Coaching to generalities just doesn't work. If I'm going to teach you how to swing a golf club, I've got to have a specific idea in mind of how the golf swing works. I can't teach you a generic kind of like, well, it'll be whatever it happens to be. Let's see what feels good. I have to have a plan. You have to adopt the plan, then we have to break the plan down. And because it's a ballistic activity, a golf swing or a cold call, they follow a pattern and what you just did determines what you get to do next or what you can do next.  Chris Beall (17:22): You can't stop golf swing partway down successfully. I know Tiger Woods can do it. I tried it once and if this were on video, I'd show you the two broken figures that I got from my efforts. Somebody was walking in the way of it, so it was probably worthwhile, but it just showed that you think you can do things that you probably can't do. That is you have this very sort of ballistic activity, but it needs a plan. It needs a first thing, a second thing, a third thing, a fourth thing. You need to start with the first one and then you need to be coached through that until you've mastered it, not to perfection, but to be sufficient to support the next one. If you're getting enough folks to go with you and trust you into the second part of the conversation, then you can start to be coached on getting curiosity.  Chris Beall (18:13): A classic cold call goes from fear. That's the prospect's fear, not yours to trust in seven seconds because you did the two things Chris said you should do out of curiosity, which is how we avoid too much value, too much value and triggers the hey, we're all set objection. And then from there into basically commitment, asking for a close, you make an offer, let's meet. And then you've got to handle the natural objections after all, you ambush somebody and you have to also be ready to set yourself up for some sort of a follow-up conversation later because most of the time you're probably not going to get a meeting on a cold call. So these are all important. I'll call it tactical factors in coaching. You need a script as a framework to coach to you, coach to first failure. You need to have immediate repetition and practice of what the rep's going to say next.  Chris Beall (19:13): Then they need to have performance hard on the heels of that experience. And then you're observing for where they improve and for still first failure and then you give the feedback on where they improved the coaching on the next thing to practice. You practice 3, 4, 5 reps and go back in and perform again. So that's the essence of coaching. Now we have kind of a real problem though, which is that the coach and the call are independently scary. The coach is probably the manager and managers have hiring and firing authority or at least strong influence over the people on their team. And that means the coaching may be interpreted as judgment, judgment on performance that might lead to potentially loss of job. It's very hard to improve performance unless you feel free to try whatever it is that's being suggested. And when you're afraid of failing at that thing, you're less likely to perform it particularly well.  Chris Beall (20:15): So you have the coach being scary and then you also have the call itself being scary because nobody likes to be that invisible stranger. The invisible stranger tends to get rejected. People don't like to be rejected. Jeff Blunt wrote a beautiful book on the subject called Objections about how we feel objections as rejection and rejection is one of the most painful things we can feel. I have a theory as to why in the environment of evolution, the village being rejected ultimately could mean being rejected from the village. The word for that is exiled and exile was generally considered a punishment worse than death. So we're afraid of the coach because they hold power over us and we're afraid of the call because we know where the bad thing is and we know we're going to trigger a response. And you put those two fears together and they tend to be somewhat paralytic with regard to performance.  Chris Beall (21:13): And everybody's different with regard to how they handle that kind of fear. Some people, they can perform reasonably well, even if they're scared in multiple dimensions. These people can go out and be a concert pianist or a major league baseball pitcher or whatever, and they can be under tremendous pressure and still perform. Most of us haven't practiced that much and don't have that much sort of, I don't know, Prozac running in our veins I suppose is a way to put it. So what do we do about it? Well, one thing to do is just physically remove the coach. So it's natural to work from home. You can't really feel in a product like ConnectAndSell if you're the user. You're having conversations with people, you don't really feel like somebody might be listening to those conversations, even if they're clicking the little whisper button after the conversation to give you their positive feedback and to give you their first failure observation, to let you practice a little bit with them and to go back into pushing the button as we call it and having the next conversation.  Chris Beall (22:19): But that physical separation is actually very effective because out of sight is out of mind. It's hard to keep in mind two things. One is I'm talking to this person that I just ambushed and the other is that somebody I can't see at all is listening to me. So that's a good separation to achieve and it's actually one of the reasons that the old walk around listening to somebody, or as they said wire jacking, that's where you plug into the audio line. You plug into the headset as the coach and you're listening. That's why that's actually a harder environment, the physical environment to get high performance, which you want. You want the highest level of performance because you're looking for what shows up as a flaw. When performance is good, when performance is bad for some other reason, somebody they're sick, they're grieving, whatever it happens to be, that's a bad time to coach.  Chris Beall (23:17): All we're going to find out is that they're sick or they're grieving or whatever. We're not going to learn very much. So what can we do about all this? Well emphasize long live coaching. Listen in, be patient. If you don't have technology like ConnectAndSell, and so you're going to wait a while, you couldn't coach multiple folks at the same time, if you can at least aggregate the audio and switch from one to another and get an indication when a call is actually in play when talking, and again, coach one thing at a time. First failure, avoid the temptation to coach the entire conversation. Use repetition immediately before the performance and of the performance itself. That is repetition before the fragment to be tried a little bit differently and repetition of the entire call. I think it's a great idea to coach about 20 calls in a row over maybe three hours.  Chris Beall (24:12): That's why we structured Flight School like that. But at least having repetition of the entire performance of repetition of the coaching fragment is important. Tune up. Your listening there is drift. Everybody drifts. They drift from best practice under pressure. They go to what's comfortable. So a rep who might've said at one point, I know I'm an interruption, might take up saying, I know I'm a bit of an interruption, or I know that I'm interrupting your day. Those are very, very different. And the rep goes there because quite frankly, it's more comfortable. Comfort is always the enemy of performance in almost everything and in cold calling, it sure is. So you might get comfortable as a cold caller, but there's a more comfortable thing to do, which is to not be as good a cold caller. So use a simple script. Five sentences are enough to get the job done with the framework.  Chris Beall (25:06): Drive out fear every way that you can, including not being physically present and use recordings to model great calls, not to critique.  Practice listening to recordings with your reps to find the things they improved and let them find the flaws on their own.  For recordings, it's a little bit challenging to go in and say there was your first failure because it isn't followed by an immediate performance.   So in summary, coaching is tremendous for cold calls and for follow-up calls, it makes a huge difference. You're asking somebody to perform something very difficult, very technical, very nuanced, very ballistic. One thing leads to another in a challenging emotional environment where they know they are a bad thing and there's no getting around that last part. They never become a good thing. Even if in your heart you're trying to help somebody, you also know you're an interruption.  Chris Beall (26:03): It's super important to coach. It allows us to move the needle actually fairly quickly. We know in these Flight School sessions we've seen teams go from like 40% of quota to 110% in four or three hour sessions and stay there. As long as there is coaching for drift that goes on an ongoing basis. Simplicity is the key. Coaches got to have a chance of listening for the same thing over and over. So it's really, really important to do it. But most of what's called coaching isn't really coaching, it's kind of advising it's too far after the fact.    So if you can figure out ways, be listening behind the scenes, coming in and whispering to somebody immediately after a conversation and helping them perform that little bit better on first failure, you'll find over time that and fairly short amount of time that what you're hoping for in the bottom line, which is conversion rates, small number of conversations, leads to a bigger number of meetings, and a larger number of meetings are being set per rep hour, which is the key number. You'll find that stuff improves on its own. So start from the beginning, you'll get to the end. Eventually, you'll get some great results. So for market dominance guys, without Corey Frank here, I'm Chris Beall. Just thought you might like a sort of practicum on coaching and happy calling out there.

As sales leaders, we're ultimately responsible for revenue growth. In part two of this must-listen episode, Helen Fanucci and Chris Beall reveal how to build an asset that drives results: pipeline power. Learn why phone and conversation intelligence beats guesswork. Discover how to arm your team with the right data to fill your pipeline with serious opportunities. We dive into the critical questions you must ask on every account to accelerate sales cycles. Helen emphasizes that trust builds between companies early on, so executives must engage alongside reps. Tune into part two for tangible tips on avoiding over-strategizing in favor of authentic conversations. You’ll pick up tactics to leverage intent signals, stop playing pipeline games, and create alignment around valuable targets. The key takeaway: with closed-loop feedback, your pipeline can become a core competitive advantage that speeds up cycles and boosts revenue. Links from this episode: Helen Fanucci on LinkedIn Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn ConnectAndSell   FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:   Corey Frank (00:01): Chris, you've said many times marketing has budget, but no headcount. Sales has headcount, but oftentimes no budget. I would imagine certainly one of the things with pipeline power, Helen, in this consultancy and this advisory that you have on helping clients get more refined targeting to think about their targeting differently is about giving more power to the sales folks. And perhaps if you're talking to the marketing folks, giving more power to the marketing folks, how to allocate their budgets and allocate the resource probably a little bit more efficiently.  Helen Fanucci (00:38): Yeah, I think so. But it also may be, it depends on the size of the organization, but I think there is a strategic, there needs to be a decider, if you will. Okay, this is the strategic decision, the direction we're going in because the targeting is a representation or a manifestation of the strategy of the business strategy. So that could be the head of sales, it could be marketing, it depends organizationally where that lands, or it might be the CEO if it's a smaller company, but it does absolutely point to a business strategy. Now, if you get more efficient with targeting and are able to do more with less, that could be threatening to some sales leaders who want to have a bigger organization headcount wise, or that might mean higher quotas. So it just depends on the dynamics and I think it's really going to take some iteration and conversations with some, if you will, friendly customers, friendly folks that I have relationships with to actually kind of see what that dynamic is and what the sweet spot is in terms of the offering as well as really the business challenge that these companies are looking to solve.  Helen Fanucci (01:59): Because it may not be targeting, per se, I say targeting, but it actually may be market expansion. They want to test more markets. I mean, there's a lot of ways to apply that methodology and thought process. It could be, as I said, grow revenue fast here, get feedback, do more, or it could be okay, we want to expand and we want to try out some new markets. So it'll be interesting as I get more time and focus engaging with my potential market to see really what's resonating and what the core, I have an idea of the core challenges, but I think in some organizations it will be different titles that care and it will resonate with some folks and other folks it might not resonate with.  Corey Frank (02:54): Well, I see Helen on this. There's a market maker to open up your aperture when you look at your total addressable market is right. How everybody's taught is total addressable market, and then you have your service addressable market, and then maybe even under that, you have your serviceable, attainable market, right? So if TAM is your total potential market demand and then you have your sam, which is the portion that a business can realistically target, and then the OMM service attainable market is the portion that your business can realistically capture. If you're helping me expand again or open up that aperture a little bit tot to grab folks that maybe I didn't have access before, it seems like that aperture opening is good for small mid-size companies, especially because I don't have, at Microsoft you probably had X amount of account managers walking through the halls. You had X amount of client amazement managers, so you could fill in the gaps where maybe I couldn't see if I'm a small mid-size company to know, oh, no, no, no. Hey, Helen does the same thing that Chris, but Chris has a different title than Helen and she's on LinkedIn and Chris doesn't believe in that and he's not on that. Would you see that Chris, from market dominance perspective is that that whole aperture gets a little bigger?  Chris Beall (04:17): Yeah, I think it gets bigger and then you get to wrestle with the big factor in business, which is time. One of the huge differences among businesses is just how long can they go without eating? So just like among animals, right? Really big animals like me, I won't say anything about you who have had plenty to eat and are genetically engineered by nature to be of a certain size. We can go without eating for quite a little while.  Corey Frank (04:47): At least an hour. At least an hour, yeah,  Chris Beall (04:50): At least in my case, I've made it 37 minutes once and it was quite good. So a very small animal, it might have to eat once every hour or something like that. And I think a lot of what constitutes advice in sales and marketing go to market is advice that if you're the wrong size company and you take it, you die, you actually die of starvation. It becomes a pretty serious business actually. So one of the factors you have to take into account is kind of like how much do you have to kill and eat in the amount of time you have before you get skinny and die? And when you're opening that aperture, now that translates into how fast can you explore that new chunk of market you're thinking about before it takes too long, right? So now the cycle time of exploration is super, super important.  Chris Beall (05:42): And if you believe that conversations of the means for exploration and frankly I don't know of any other that delivers enough highly reliable high fidelity information, then the cycle time to next conversation within somebody hypothetically is worth speaking to in that wider aperture becomes the dominant feature in the execution of your strategy, and that actually becomes the dominant feature. The feedback becomes the dominant feature in your actual strategy because having a strategy you can't execute is kind of ridiculous. And yet we all start out with strategies we can't execute. We must because we don't know enough to choose a strategy, we can't execute. So our strategy is a hypothesis. We need to go out and engage. It always reminds me of when I first met Helen, we went sailing together and there was a little piece of equipment that was on the mast and she knows sailing and I don't, she races sailboats and I serve as ballast, kind of animate ballast, right?  Chris Beall (06:42): There's killer whales and you can't get them to come up on the boat and do the job, so you use me instead. So I noted that when she saw this piece of equipment that was very small and looked out of place that she ran, actually went physically fast toward the mass, then stopped and examined. That's what you need to do in markets. You need to go fast into a point where you're engaging, which is the conversation. She was having a conversation with this loose piece of equipment with her eyes and her MIT trained brain, her engineer's brain, and then she came up with a strategy. The strategy from where she was sitting in the back of the boat and the stern would've been a poor strategy because she didn't have enough information. She needed the information from engaging the market, this little piece of metal that was hanging there looking funny in order to be able to go, oh, this is what I'll do.  Chris Beall (07:36): I can safely tuck it away and ignore it, or I can take some time and fix it or whatever. I think that's a great analogy for this kind of work that Helen is embarking on with pipeline power is look, you got to have somebody go run into the market and engage it and talk with it, not for the purpose of making a sale this quarter, but for the purpose of efficiently gathering information that will inform your strategies. You even know which of those three strategic layers with regard to Tam you're in. Because let me tell you, if you think you know, you're fooling yourself, you're fooling yourself. If you aren't getting feedback from the market through conversations at a short enough cycle time and a high enough frequency, you're just guessing and your problem is competitively, somebody else might choose not to guess. And I think Helen's going to help her clients choose not to guess.  Corey Frank (08:33): And so with that, the helping knuckleheads like me choose not to guess. Where do you start, Helen, right? I'm a small mid-size VP of sales. I have a decent patient board. I have a SaaS software product. I got some funding. I think I'm doing everything right. I have enough people, I got for more people as soon as I start proving myself and go to the board. So I think I'm doing okay, but where would I start with something like this? With people power?  Helen Fanucci (09:05): I would start by looking at the data that you currently have in your CRM system or whatever your system of record is to find out one, where you're winning, who you're winning with, what types of people are making the buying decisions as a business. You may or may not already know. That depends how you have been crawling through your own data. So I'd start there to look at the current state and try to draw some conclusions or at least illuminate where resources are aligned and are they aligned to where you're currently winning or are they misaligned? So I would start looking at the current state to build a hypothesis of what you could do more of to accelerate your revenue, and it might be repositioning some resources to an industry that you're doing well at or trying to then going to find people. Let's say you have some folks that make the decision, so you have some champions or economic buyers, what do they have in common across each other?  Helen Fanucci (10:24): And I don't just mean job titles, but the characteristics. You can look on LinkedIn and see what the characteristics of those and then go find some more like that within a defined addressable market or where you think you want to go. I think some of those things are places to start. This begins to get the closed loop feedback here. You have data, you have some results and dispositions from your go-to market, even if it's closed loss or not now, not interested, what have you. So trying to apply current data to then make some recommendations of how to move forward. The other thing too is what information do you have or that you capture that's proprietary to you? Because can't build a defendable market dominance position on publicly available information. So what is it that you're collecting or that's proprietary and how do you get more of that that's relevant to your business? And I don't know if that's something in my experience anyway, that's not really a deliberate thing that people put. Time sort of happens and some people have more insights into their customer set, but doing that in an organized fashion to build up insights that your competitors don't have, or at least that's proprietary to you, makes a lot of sense and differentiating yourself and defending your position in the market.  Corey Frank (12:06): Well, it also sounds like right Chris, defending, Hey, I got 4 0 9 a's that I have to do every year. If I can make an argument that I have some proprietary IP with regards to my cybersecurity database versus everybody else's, that could be an advantage from an acquisition or funding or valuation perspective. Could it not, Chris?  Chris Beall (12:31): Oh yeah. I mean when you come right down to it, growth is the big driver of valuations and proprietary information is the big driver of growth. We actually, I think everybody knows that. It's like I want my really good reps out talking to people and learning what their needs are, proprietary information. That person told me what their needs are. I want to know when they're thinking of doing something. I want to know what other systems and processes we need to fit together with. I need to know who are the other people who are important in making a decision. I need to know if they're in a macro situation that tells me and tells them, Hey, we got to sit tight for a while, say in the middle of an m and a circumstance, but we think it'll be kind of done and integrated within three months, four months, five months, whatever.  Chris Beall (13:21): All of that proprietary information that that's what is fundamental to being competitive. Your product features, your product capabilities are almost never going to be able to stand up to the market over time. Because if they're good people will copy them and they'll copy them. In fact, the innovator's dilemma tells us they will copy them with something that is cheaper than what you sell and not quite as good, but occupies a pretty big chunk of your addressable market. You're now obliged to defend from above, right? This is those who haven't read their professor, Clayton Christensen should grab their innovator's dilemma and reread it, and I would recommend rereading it twice actually, because most of us don't get it. When I read it the first time. It's interesting to me again, I told you, I just read a book over the holidays here about the second law of thermodynamics, which is about the second law is the one that says you can't break even.  Chris Beall (14:18): You always lose. So the three laws are like, you can't win, you always lose and you can't get out of the game, right? Well, the one that says you always lose says things just get more disordered. Your job as a business is to create order by using energy up in the environment to do something. Well, what does that order? That order that lower entropy is in the form of information that allows you to go to the market more efficiently, talk to this person rather than this person. Have another conversation with this person in four weeks. Stay away from this person or this company because they don't have any need forever. Come back to these in a year because they will have need develop your product so it integrates with this product because that would give you access to this entire set of the market. All these things are driven by information that comes to you that creates order so that you don't dissolve into chaos, into entropy.  Chris Beall (15:14): Like everything else in the universe, you're trying to fight against the tendency of the universe, which is to go crazy, to go disorder. The glass when it falls and breaks doesn't ever reassemble itself. Well, it's your job as a business to reassemble broken glasses or keep them from breaking. There's a lot of things that we can do. So what Helen is suggesting is one of the things we can do is let's pay attention to where we have a chance, but let's also find out if we have a chance that is let's make some good first decisions, hypothetical decisions as to where to go learn more, then let's go learn more, then let's make better decisions based on that information of where we should go learn more. Sales is actually a learning process primarily, and the exhaust of sales is deals and revenue.  Corey Frank (16:02): That's great. Chris, you heard that one yet, Helen, from him. Sales process is predominantly a learning exercise and the exhaust and residue is revenue.  Helen Fanucci (16:14): I think that that's not a compelling value proposition for a business, particularly when talking to sales leaders. They're accountable for revenue and yeah, okay, the learning thing, alright, maybe it's a more CEO executive conversation, but for most sales leaders, I don't think that's a winning proposition. That's just my opinion. I don't disagree with Chris, but I think there's probably a more elegant way to frame it that would resonate more with the audience.  Chris Beall (16:50): I love that. Well, that's why I think most sales leaders last such a short amount of time in their jobs because they are held accountable for the quarter and maybe the next quarter, but the company is trying to do something over a longer period of time and you get this sort of mismatch. And so it's one of the big issues that we have now is it used to be salespeople. Were formally, informally responsible for nurturing their territory. We give you a territory. We don't expect you to leave the territory next quarter. We're actually thinking the longer you're in the territory, the more you're going to control the territory and the revenue you generate from the territory will become more predictable over time. That's kind of why we do it. You get Cory, you get Phoenix. Well, we don't know how big Phoenix is for us revenue wise, but we're pretty sure that if your butts on the line, your family's fortune's on the line and you're good, you're going to figure that out.  Chris Beall (17:44): In a world where geography no longer dominates, territories become challenging. And now we've got to ask ourselves, well, so what are we really doing? And what we're really doing is we're saying sales, you've got a new problem. You've got to also nurture relationships over time. The old problem that you had when you had a territory, but now you have to do it with a lot less territorial clarity. And I think almost all conversations with sales leaders now are relatively uncomfortable for a whole bunch of reasons, including the macro economy, which doesn't help at all. They're held accountable for what happens when interest rates go up too. Interestingly enough, I actually agree with Helen. It's not a compelling value prop, but it's a fact of the world. And the fact is those who sell really, really well turn out to be those who learned the fastest and turn those learnings into compelling value for those that are ready to buy now and nurturing relationships with those who will be ready to buy later.  Corey Frank (18:49): Well, and with what both of you have been saying, if it is indeed a learning exercise, and it may not be attractive to say that, hey, the residue is revenue, it also would yield the premise that the faster I can learn, the faster I can get to revenue, the more cycles I can put into that learning exercise. IE through nurturing, through cold calling, through understanding who my targets are out of the gate. It's measured three times, cut once and versus how a lot of organizations are. I give you all these tools. I'm going to bring in all the reps for outreach and SalesLoft and LinkedIn navigator. You're going to learn as a sales professional how to do it. But maybe my nature isn't to be a farmer. My nature isn't to be a nurturer. My nature maybe isn't to be a closer, my nature isn't to be a presenter, but I have an armed with all these tools.  Corey Frank (19:41): I'm saddled with a number, a million and a half. I'll see you in 12 months. And that's usually where it ends. And the sales leaders are there to help support them, meaning let me know if you have a deal that has a couple of commas in it, because I'm going to come in and I'm going to help close that deal for you. But the tactical efforts are maybe probably geared around how your hygiene in Salesforce is. Maybe that's the majority of the tactical communication with the reps or in their all hands meetings. Correct. So it's interesting dilemma, but I'm looking forward to hearing more about pipeline power. And by the way, if you go to pipeline power.com, that's about offshore drilling rigs and things like that. Love it. That's not what we're talking about.  Helen Fanucci (20:22): This is pipeline power ai. Thank you very much. ai. Although I don't think our website's up yet, so still working on that, but yeah, no, I saw that as well. I thought, oh, that's perfect. That means it's a completely different industry. No conflicts. I know this is pipeline power ai. By the way, Corey, your last statements there, the faster cycle time. This is why people who actually use the phone are going to win because they learn faster and leaders must work with their reps or understand how their reps are doing. You can't wait until there's a deal with multiple commas to go in and close it because it's already lost unless you're working with them earlier on because it is a team sport, and you've got to get executives engaged early on to have that trust building relationship. The company that's buying your product has to buy the trust of the company, not just the trust of the rep.  Helen Fanucci (21:24): So there's a lot of leading indicators on territory planning, account planning, and I don't mean plan and put on the shelf, I mean plan as an inaction. Next steps, what are you doing? What's going on? What problems are we solving? What's the compelling event, et cetera. All the questions that you would know matter along the way. But yeah, so pipeline power is really about targeting and improving and using closed loop data. So as you learn, that goes into the model to improve better and better targeting so that the company can grow and accelerate revenues and valuation and exits or whatever the end game is for the customer's companies.  Corey Frank (22:13): What I hear you saying is right, a page out of the book is love your team by arming your team. I think there's a recent LinkedIn post about that very thing, and so arm them the right  Helen Fanucci (22:24): Way. Yes, we got arm your team along the way. Absolutely.  Corey Frank (22:27): Well, wonderful. Well, Helen, thanks for coming, kicking and screaming to this episode of the Market Dominance guys, and glad you banished Chris to the corner of the house there where we normally get to opine and these weekly sessions. So Chris, final thoughts on love your team and on pipeline power and how it pertains to the market dominance mantra.  Chris Beall (22:49): Well, market dominance is always about starting with a list because markets are lists, they're not ideas and getting that list to be sufficiently relevant that you can make hay while the sun shines, you can actually make some revenue off it. And then learning from those interactions quickly and make the list better and better. Sharper and sharper, more and more precise. That's the nature of the game. I love the name that Helen's chosen pipeline power. Your pipeline is power. Jeb Blunt says the pipe is life. And that's pretty true. I mean, the pipeline is the power of your company. When you look at your balance sheet and you ask what is the number one contributor to the biggest chunk of your balance sheet, which is called Goodwill, it's your pipeline.  Corey Frank (23:36): That's so great and obviously valuations that we've talked about. So Helen, thank you once again for joining us. We hope to hear more and more as pipeline power learns more about this exhaust and residue that we've talked so much about in the industry. I think that no one is talking about this element of the tip of the spear as much, and I think the cycle times they're reduced, those are real compelling arguments to certainly engage with Helen and her team. So for the market dominance guys and Chris Beal, this is Corey Frank. Until next time.  

Building a target account list is the critical first step for any successful sales strategy, yet it remains an overlooked and haphazard process at many SaaS firms. Rather than leave targeting up to individual reps, centralize it to boost efficiency and revenue growth. As Helen Fanucci, founder of Pipeline Power, Chris Beall, and Corey Frank emphasize in this episode, outdated title-based targeting must give way to responsibility-based keyword searches on LinkedIn and intent signals from job profiles. They delve into common missteps sales leaders make, from over-researching targets to allowing bloated pipelines and territories that hamper productivity. Tune in to learn how to focus your targeting, embrace open territories, have meaningful conversations, and build trust with the right prospects from day one. You’ll pick up tangible tactics to scale pipeline and accelerate deals. Listen to the first half of this discussion, Sales Targeting Beyond LinkedIn and Sales Navigator. Links from this episode: Helen Fanucci on LinkedIn Corey Frank on LinkedIn Branch49 Chris Beall on LinkedIn ConnectAndSell   FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:   Corey Frank (00:30): To be here, bestselling author of Love Your Team by Helen Fucci and former executive over at Microsoft and DRL over at Mediafly. So Helen is joining us today, Chris, and we're going to specifically talk about, I think something that we've talked about many times on the Market Dominance Guys, which is targeting, right, the four legs of the bar, stool, target list message, and reps. Sometimes we forget that targeting is one of the easiest to overlook, and so we brought the heat, we bring the expert, Ms. Fanucci on the market dominance guy. So Chris, over to you to introduce Helen and some of the things that we've been talking about before we jumped on air here about targeting and what we can all learn from Helen today.  Chris Beall (01:16): Sure. Thanks Corey. Well, just to let you know, by the way, speaking of that Hawking thing, my most recent book I read is Molecular Storms, which is the application of the second law of thermodynamics to everything. So I think that it applies to targeting, actually, interestingly enough, targeting, it is an attempt to reduce the entropy that is the number of micro states that correspond to a macro state. The macro state in this case would be, Hey, bookings, we're making money. The micro states would be all of the folks that you talk with and what you're talking with them about and all that. And you're trying to get that ratio in line so that you can survive by talking to relevant people, avoiding talking to irrelevant people and all that kind of good stuff. And Helen and I talk about stuff like this all the time.  Chris Beall (02:00): Somebody said to me once, you must be the nerdiest people, at least in all of Quail Creek as a couple. And I said, well, perhaps as a working couple, yes, that's possibly the case. We may have nerdier people here in Quail Creek, but I don't think very many of them were both of them profess to have jobs. So Helen, you've had some recent experiences and some previous experiences that I think bring something about targeting into focus that is often missed, which is kind of the cultural issues and the people issues and the change management issues around targeting and B2B, Corey and I tend to refer to it like, Hey, you're the boss, let's make a list. And as you have known all along and have certainly gotten to experience recently, it's not quite as simple as that from a people perspective.  Helen Fanucci (02:55): Yeah, I mean there's a lot to be said in response to what you just said. So I've never had a job or been in a company where there was centralized targeting. Of course, everybody wants to engage the market. So when I was at Microsoft and my team had these big global accounts like Intel and hp, they were responsible for their own targeting and creating a strategy for reaching out to executives or go higher or broader, what have you across the organization. But even if an account rep didn't have a single account but had a territory, again, they were responsible for it. And then more recently at Mediafly as a CRO, the reps would decide what accounts to focus on and who to reach out to as well as the SDRs. And it just got me thinking that that is perhaps a misuse of resource, that it might be more effectively done if it was centralized.  Helen Fanucci (04:08): And then there was some deliberate strategy around the targeting rather than leaving it up to the individuals with a theory that, well, they're being paid to make their quota, and it's up to them how they go about doing it. But I think that that actually is inefficient. There is a piece about it in terms of defining strategy and helping craft that strategy as represented by who do we want to talk to in the market? Who do we want to get feedback from in the market? Who do we want to pursue to generate growth and revenue? And then there's a piece that is just, let's do a job well and have it centralized versus the fragmentation that comes when everyone's doing and applying it in their own way.  Corey Frank (05:00): So if we could take a step back though, Helen, I mean Chris, you and I, we speak with a lot, lot of organizations, a lot of CROs, a lot of VPs of sales. How do I do this really poorly? In other words, what is a traditional steady state of an organization? When they say targeting, do they say, Hey, I gave you LinkedIn navigator, you know what industries we play in, what geographies you are responsible for? Is that where it typically ends for most organizations?  Helen Fanucci (05:30): Yeah, I think that that's a really good statement. So there's Sales Navigator, but then there's also data providers. And I like to learn by doing. So I went into sales navigator myself, and then I put in our data provider, they have a Chrome plugin. And what I noticed in the lists on Sales Navigator when I wanted to translate that into a contactable list with phone numbers and emails, that the data provider only had about 50% of the people that I had identified in Sales Navigator that I wanted to reach out to or have my team reach out to. And I thought, man, that's really inefficient. That doesn't feel great that we don't have all the data. It's multifaceted. Are we talking to the right people? There are people who are experts that have felt that, okay, I've been successful selling to vice presidents of sales or sales enablement or what have you.  Helen Fanucci (06:36): This is how you do it. Go into Sales Navigator, get their contacts, et cetera, et cetera. So it kind of pretty much ends there. Some companies have the point of view that's really important to do research, and in fact, when I was at Microsoft and I was trying out or utilizing ConnectAndSell to reach HR executives, I thought, oh gosh, I've got to do some research on these people because what if I ended up talking to a few of them, which I hope to do? And they said, well, wait a minute. We have a relationship with Microsoft. I felt like they would expect me to know more about our mutual relationship. So I did some research and when I used ConnectAndSell, I realized, oh my goodness, I over researched. I did it for my comfort as it turned out, but it was not actually needed in the conversation. So I think sometimes that happens too. People get over  Corey Frank (07:41): Researched, our good friend, mutual friend, Steve, Richard, right? He advocates the three by three, Chris and Helen, which is, hey, get three pieces of information in three minutes before you make the call. Now, Chris, you and I are big advocates of, although Steve is brilliant in many aspects, I think we fundamentally disagree if you're doing cold outreach to do three pieces of information for three minutes before you make a phone call. Correct. Tale's point about doing too much targeting, too much research before you jump into a role of cold outreach free.  Chris Beall (08:16): Yeah, I mean, given that there's a one and end chance and running between 10 and 30, that person's actually going to answer your research is wasted somewhere between 90 and 97% of the time. So we don't do very many things in life where we say, I insist that this be done. This is the most important thing to be done. And by the way, it's complete waste. At least one out of 10 times you do it, you're just going to throw it away. It's sort of like saying it's really important for these students to do their homework. So we know that they're practicing and learning, say in a calculus class, and we're going to assign them the homework, and then when they turn it in at random, we're going to burn 90% of the homework that they gave us as well just, I don't know, we can't read it or whatever.  Chris Beall (09:05): I don't know if that's a great analogy, but it's kind of similar asking somebody to do work and then throw away that work because the next step in the process is fundamentally statistically unreliable is just bizarre. And in fact, I don't know if you know this, Corey, but our friend Jeb Blount called me last year and said, Hey, you did this presentation at Outbound about time, about how many hours in the day that we have, and I think my calculation said that it takes about 25 and a half hours in a day in a given day, and there are not 25 and a half hours in a day to follow the research and call program that's recommended if you are attempting to talk to 10 people a day. So when you kind of look at it that way, it's like our people at ConnectAndSell talk to 40 people a day.  Chris Beall (09:52): Would you rather have 40 conversations in which you're relying on, I'll call it the canned research, which is are they in your ICP as a company, do they meet the criteria for size of the company, industry, whatever it happens to be, and is the person more or less somebody that you want to talk to either to get a meeting with them or have 'em direct you somewhere else and yes, no, not me, not now kind of categorization. If the answer is you've done a reasonable job making the list in the first place, our view is just talk to somebody you're targeting actually starts with the conversation. It's true. It really starts with centralized list building, but the real action begins in the conversation where now you're targeting based on high quality information coming back at 20,000 bits a second rather than here's something I read and I sure hope it's relevant and I can use it. By the way, research has another problem, which is almost none of it can be used in a cold call safely. You call somebody up and say, Hey Chris, how about the Wildcats? And I go, actually, it turns out I grew up in Scottsdale and I was a big A SU fan.  Corey Frank (11:00): That's right. That is true. It's inauthentic, right? Authentic and highest degrees can actually dissuade somebody from building trust, which is the intent of the cold call to begin with, because that feels manipulative from a traditional vanilla list building. Helen, to your point, about 50% or x percent of a given cohort that I want, they're not available on traditional off the shelf one source, right? There's a LinkedIn and may have to cross reference to get all these other different platforms. So when you give one of your reps, let's say Microsoft or any of the other executive positions that you've held, do you assume that is that go with part of their expectations that you know that there may be 58 people inside of Honeywell that I want to target for this particular software product, but really only 14 or 15 of them are readily available in traditional office sell type of solutions. Do you factor that in when you're working and leading your team?  Helen Fanucci (12:01): Well, so a couple things is you've got to factor in that you're not going to be able to reap everybody. Yes, that's true. However, if it's a big company like Honeywell and you have a big team like I did at Microsoft covering Honeywell, chances are they can navigate to those individuals in ways that the average person going in through Sales Navigator or a data source. So that was an advantage position for sure. But if you're not in Microsoft and you're in another organization that doesn't have those relationships, then I think it behooves you to have a broader list of folks. There is an assumption that you know who to talk to, but that's a bad assumption. So one of the things that I believe deeply is that anyone you talk to, you're going to learn from. And years ago when I had my first sales job, part of the training I got navigating and selling in big organizations is talk to people at lower levels or easier to get to learn and find out what's going on, and then who's responsible for solving a certain class of problems that your product addresses and then ladder your way up to different people in the organization or get sponsored in.  Helen Fanucci (13:28): So I don't ever have heartburn over talking to the wrong person because it's always a learning opportunity. And in fact, one of the things I think is missing, and if you look at my LinkedIn profile with pipeline power, I talk about closed-loop targeting. And what that means is taking your learnings from lots of different sources. It could be from your CRM system, it could be from your outreach, the dispositions of your outbound lead sources, what have you, and find out, use that data to inform and sharpen your targeting so that you can be more and more deliberate as you go to market.  Corey Frank (14:14): That's interesting. I haven't experienced that. I haven't heard that. So there's probably an element where if the three of us are all doing cybersecurity inside of Honeywell, we may have the same title, but odds are is we don't, there may be some standards that are on a business card that are in the HR PeopleSoft system, but when it comes to maybe a LinkedIn or what a Zoom or with these other off the shelf type of solutions, it seems like that's a big rub. That's a big problem out there, is trying to coalesce these lists when three of us are doing the same gig. Same, but we have three different titles, but yet I'm supposed to try to search, my boss said I want to search for these titles. Marketing said I want to search for these titles. And therein lies a little bit of the challenge, doesn't it?  Helen Fanucci (15:02): Yeah. Well, that's your first mistake. I think titles are an outdated mode of targeting, but they're the common practice. It's a common practice, but it's not common sense. It's kind of the opposite from my book is common sense, but not common practice. Well, I am putting that on its head and going after common practice is not common sense. So the reason I say that is a director of sales can mean a lot of different things. It's a titled and so if, to use your analogy, if the three of us are responsible for cybersecurity, but we have different titles, why not just search on the term cybersecurity and sales navigator? Because people in their profiles on LinkedIn, they represent what they do and the words they say and it's like, okay, so who cares about a class of problems? Is it if it's cybersecurity, they probably talk about cybersecurity or they probably talk about threat detection or whatever kind of security words that are relevant.  Helen Fanucci (16:20): It's also a representation of what the company has hired them to do. I know a lot of people will look at job postings to find out what company strategies are, what gets revealed through company strategies, but also if you look on LinkedIn, it will reveal people who care about a certain class of business issues by how they structure and what they put in their LinkedIn posting. So why not search on that instead of director of sales, or you could do director of cybersecurity or what have you, but just put in cybersecurity as a title and search on that and then see if you get closer to a optimal target list.  Corey Frank (17:09): Yeah, so because fundamentally, what I hear you saying, and Chris, we've talked about this in the past, is that my message is why the power of the 27-second message is relevant today. But if I'm a inside sales rep and I'm trying to craft a telemarketing, an outreach message, I risk if that is catered too much to the three by three pieces of information or what I think is that particular title, your example of Wildcats versus Sun Devils for instance, and whatever is the equivalent in a business outreach. I risk wasting a lot of my outbound conversations that I have with the message that is too catered too specific to what I think is the title. Do I have that right, Chris and Helen?  Chris Beall (17:55): Yeah, that's a big part of it. I mean, I'll give an analogy. If you're in a gunfight, if it's dark, you want a shotgun. If it's light, you can see the target. Clearly you might want to a rifle. If you're far away, you might want a sniper rifle, right? Well, in business, when we're starting to engage, we're trying to figure out what's going on. It's a dark room, it's a dark world, it's dark woods, and we really don't want to be too precise at that point because that precision just means we don't get any feedback when we miss the target, all we get is a hit or a miss. I'd rather wing a few of them and hear the Yelp. So anyway, you get what I mean, right? And what Helen's pointing out also, I think speaks to this other question of intent. So we've talked about how what's called high intent now is somebody from that company maybe in a relevant position if we can figure that out, is looking at our website or is looking at other folks' website or is going G two crowd and poking around or whatever they're doing.  Chris Beall (18:57): That's called high intent. It's also called by people who understand strategy entering a red ocean. If they're looking at your competitors and they're looking at your category and they're looking at you, that means it's a competitive situation already. One of the main things we want to do in business is stay out of competitive situations. It's always a problem when it's competitive. It means you come down to battle cards, you come down to besting, whoever it is while they're in the fray. You'd rather come and actually win in advance by building trust early and then waiting until somebody is appropriately in market. So the way we miss is not so much in space, but in time we miss by being too early. We miss by being too late. Well, too early is great, too late is bad, and right on time isn't as good as early.  Chris Beall (19:44): It just isn't. You'd rather be early when you can dominate with trust. So that's part of it. The other part about intent that's interesting is let's compare two things. So there's a website visit, somebody shows up at a website and looks at something. So that's thing number one. Or to quote Dr. Seuss thing one. Then there's thing two, which is you pay a bunch of money to have somebody do a job for you. Now, which one shows greater intent? A website visit or paying somebody a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year to do an important job for you? Clearly the latter shows more intent to solve that problem on the part of the company, the employer than the former, which is somebody goes, looks at a website. So we have these multi-billion dollar unicorns that have been built around intent data, which is mostly website visits, and meanwhile, the most obvious and powerful piece of intent data.  Chris Beall (20:39): What did companies actually invest in their biggest investment, which is always people sitting right there in the profiles, as does people describe themselves in LinkedIn Sales Navigator. That is they describe themselves in the same way their company would describe the job to be done because advertising themselves to future employers to do that same job. So you get intent more clearly out of job profiles than you do out of the big fancy intent products, including LinkedIns because there's no choice. I hire somebody to do a job. How are they going to describe themselves to the world as somebody who can't do that job? That makes no sense.  Corey Frank (21:25): That's fascinating. And in your universe then, I would imagine, right? Helen, I'm sure you saw this when you had a new rep who penetrated an account, Chris, you see it all the time at ConnectAndSelll, my universe on day one, maybe this size, my universe on day 30 is this size my universe, right? And day plus X or so is even smaller, and that's ultimately that filet that I can continue to harvest. And if I don't target, what does my universe look like Pretty consistently, probably maybe basis points, degrees in much smaller at gas. Correct.  Helen Fanucci (22:01): One of the things that was interesting is this idea of territory assignments, and we have a rep that has a locked in territory and people, I guess feel a comfort zone with that versus well, okay, here you have maybe 10 accounts, but all the other unnamed accounts are fair game and they go to whoever gets a meeting in those accounts. It's so interesting to see how anxious or irritated people are by having open territory concept. It's like everyone wants to have their patch defined, locked down so they can pursue it as they wish. So is that going smaller and smaller? It probably is, and it was just fascinating to me to observe the dynamics around that and the discomfort with having all these accounts that were fair game for anyone to go after. I wonder if you have seen that much in what your thoughts are about that, but when you talked about the shrinking world or shrinking view, that's kind of what I was thinking about is, yeah, you can zero in, but then you lose sight of what's possible where you're not looking.  Corey Frank (23:21): Yeah, it's funny. I think it's probably the same reason why a lot of sales reps have the security of a bloated pipeline. They can't disqualify folks in this particular quarter. Hope Springs eternal that this person will always close for this angst, this fear that if I keep sending them touch base emails, not picking up a call and have a conversation, not promoting something new, that I'm seeing what's happening in the world from 40,000 feet that's relevant or German to them. But if I simply do touch base emails, which is the equivalent of did you decide on choosing me and giving me your money yet? Or is there a better option that's out there? But that's why pipelines remain large. I can see that there is certainly from the team that all three of us collectively and Broaden knows we're a sales organization. The bigger, the more states I have, and Chris, you and I have talked about this when it comes to people too, if you're a sales manager, the more people I have under my purview, under my fiefdom, certainly the more prominent I am, I guess the more secure I feel. You probably saw this a lot at some of the larger companies you were with Helen, right? Is how many headcount are under your particular p and l, and that somehow is a status thing.  Helen Fanucci (24:33): Well, it's power. You have more resources as a sales leader. You don't have budget compared to headcount. So headcount is more resources. It is a version of power to be able to get bigger revenue, bigger quotas, because headcount always comes with bigger quotas. The more headcount, the more quota. So if you're willing to take that on, great. Why not?   Key Points: Centralized targeting can be more effective than leaving it up to individual sales reps to figure out their own targeting (Helen) Over-researching targets is inefficient since there is a low chance of actually reaching many of those contacts (Chris) Targeting based on titles alone is an outdated approach; it's better to search for keywords related to responsibilities in LinkedIn profiles (Helen) Being too specific with an initial outreach message risks wasting conversations and not getting helpful feedback (Corey and Chris) Job profiles show greater buying intent than website visits since companies invest significantly in hiring people to solve problems (Chris) As reps develop domain expertise over time, their relevant target universe tends to become smaller and more focused (Corey) Many sales reps feel anxious without strictly defined territories and accounts; they resist more open territory concepts (Helen) Sales leaders often equate headcount and territory size with power and status (Corey)  

Closing sales requires trust, and trust is built through conversation. As Chris Beall notes, in B2B, the gateway to ongoing dialogue is the discovery meeting. Yet, too often, sales teams fail to view the meeting itself as the product they are selling. As Bruce Lewolt highlights, sellers must frame their sincere care for the customer’s success. This care is best conveyed interpersonally. By securing that initial meeting, the sales rep opens the door to relationship-building. As Jennifer Standish explains, delivery matters as much as content in piquing interest. With the right tonality and empathy, a seller can turn cold calls into warm introductions. James Thornburg and Matt McCorkle build on this idea: the meeting is a gift, saving the prospect time and money. When sellers view appointment-setting as customer service, their conviction carries through. The discovery meeting enables the sales conversation to continue. Building trust starts with booking that first meeting. Join us for episode 209: Your Only Product Is the Meeting. This episode has segments from the following full episodes featuring Matt McCorkle, James Thornburg, Corey Frank, Chris Beall, Jennifer Standish, and Bruce Lewolt.   EP139: Your Product Is the Meeting EP122: Learning to Manage Your Voice Under Pressure EP115: The Enemy of Your Message Is Drift EP113: The Cold-Call Kiss of Death EP108: Sales and the State of Apprehension   FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:   Chris Beall (00:00): I think that's what we do primarily in sales is we help people go from the emotional state they're in to one that would be more conducive to getting to an exploration of possibilities. And when we think of it differently, I think we get in trouble. Matt McCorkle (00:16): Yeah, I really like that analogy of being on the phone with somebody and the value of the meeting is saving them from an oncoming train or a bus or whatever you're saying. What we say is that this one isn't nearly as impactful, but when we're training we say you are giving the person you're talking to a hundred dollars, are you going to be excited and happy to give this person a hundred dollars because you're saving them that money simply by showing up and showing them some of the knowledge that we have at Ksr for their operation. Absolutely. You're not taking a hundred bucks from them. You're not wasting their time. You're giving them a hundred dollars and here's the a hundred dollars of value you're giving them. That's when we use, pretend like you got a hundred dollars and you're pocket and you're just walking up to somebody to say, here you go. No strings attached. Here's a hundred bucks. Help with that confidence. Absolutely right. Corey, Corey Frank (01:09): What's more fun for you? Do you have a balance of how often do you do cold calls? How often do you do discovery and do you yearn for doing one over the other? James Thornburg (01:19): I'm enjoying it all. To be frank. Right now I have a great process. I make calls maybe like an hour, an hour and a half a day, typically four or five days a week, pretty much every day, anywhere between nine and 11. And then in the afternoon it's dedicated to meetings. And depending on the day, I may be running two or seven different meetings. They might be net new meetings, they may be follow-ups, things of that nature. And then what people don't get to see, and it's kind of hard to understand is there's a whole world of selling and working deals behind the scenes with the different providers in terms of registration and things of that nature. Competitors, I mean, it's a knife fight. And what people don't realize about this business is that these deals don't always go through the front door. Traditionally how people expect them to be. I mean there's a lot of maneuvering on opportunities to get things done. Corey Frank (02:10): How about from a metrics perspective, James? I think Chris, at any given time you give him seven seconds notice. He'll pull up the data and the stats for his team and know within the first hour of the day if they're off or who needs help on the intro, who needs help on tonality as kind of the proprietor of your own practice there. Do you look at the stats at that level of tactical detail of how you're doing 'em one day or to the other and dial the connect or dialed a meeting or if you're getting your butt kicked in the intro, maybe it's a tonality thing and I should probably change it up. How do you use math of the data to alter or calibrate your sales process? James Thornburg (02:51): I do have a general idea in terms of what my numbers look like. I don't get overly concerned about, Hey, what my conversions are down this month. I just think it's a trend. I mean, you look at, last week for me, I set five meetings like an hour and a half, never happened before. This week I'm at one meeting, one meeting probably 20 conversations. So it's not horrible but not great. And so it flows. It flows and some days I'm better than others. I can feel it. You just know the conversations or I'm catching the right people. But I have a good idea in terms of my conversions, I mean, well data connect's kind of irrelevant I guess right now, but do connect was trending at probably close to three and a half, probably three and a half percent. But my conversions on my conversations are right around 10 out of 10 people I talk to. I'm converting one of those. Chris Beall (03:45): The disease that kills companies is distraction. That's why little companies shouldn't do strategic partnerships with other little companies that give each other the disease called distraction. And it's highly communicable, so be careful of it. You need focus and the focus is starts with the list. It's really easy to stay focused when you have that list. You can go through the list and say, have we talked to everybody on this list? We haven't. Let's take the ones we haven't talked with and try to talk to them. Okay, if somebody wants help doing that, come to me. I can help you talk to a whole bunch of people. That's what we do is like talk to folks and we help you talk to people. Have we got a meeting with everybody on the list? Not yet. Well, we have a job to get a meeting with the rest. Have we learned from the meetings that we've had, what resonates? So what percentage are resonating on the economics, what on the emotional and what on the strategic and what didn't resonate at all? That's a little trickier, but it's very objective step by step by step, and by going step by step, we do take care of immediate needs because guess what? We'll actually be closing business sooner than not. And the best part is it keeps getting easier instead of getting harder. That's the reason you do this. Jennifer Standish (05:06): I also think that we have to accept that a certain percentage of the population doesn't like to be sold to and they will shut down meetings to their own detriment. But there's nothing you can say to them. They just will not be sold to. And we just have to accept that. But everybody else is someone willing. Some people are more willing than others. I've had situations where I get no objection. I get sure, I'd love to. Absolutely. I'm available on this particular date and time and it's super easy. Other times there's a little bit of pushback, but then people are amenable. It's to scheduling appointments. So we just have to accept that some people are more willing to meet with people and are interested in what people have to Corey Frank (05:52): See. Jen, how much of that do you think, and you've seen, you've probably experienced bad calls. You've probably from your background, taught many folks to learn this skill. You have a voice. We have a handful of folks on this podcast, all brilliant folks, of course, present company included with me and Chris. But a lot of the folks that are on these podcasts of ours, they have a voice that can just melt butter and they have a command of their tonality, their stammer, their pregnant pauses. Is that something that you see as correlating to your success? Yes. Jennifer Standish (06:29): When you're, and I'll tell you, trainers, cold calling trainers, do not spend enough time working with people on their delivery because it's 80% of your success as a cold caller. A great script hits all the points with a terrible delivery. We'll get no appointments, but a great delivery with a mediocre script, we'll still get you appointments. Absolutely. Bruce Lewolt (06:58): So there's the athletic, the endurance, taking the brunt of rejection and still coming back strong. There is also, and to Corey's point at the sincerity, I really care about helping students. If you're a corporation, I really care about helping salespeople reach their full potential and do well. I care about helping your business do well. So that comes through to me. But when I train salespeople, I recognize if they work for a big electronics company, they may or may not care as deeply as I do about their customer doing things. So my daughter was a successful actress when she was young in Hollywood. She was on a lot of national shows and a lot of acting, trading, and they use framing, what's my frame here? How am I looking at the world? So for the salesperson, before they start, they need to do the same exercises that an actor does beforehand to get themselves in the right frame seeing things in the right frame. So they are coming across as caring. They are coming across if need be as very confident, or they are coming across as, I'm struggling a little here, could you help me? The broken wing script, if that's what they're doing. Chris Beall (08:13): Well, one of the beauties of B2B is that B2B tends to run through a meeting. You're going to have a meeting, and the meeting is a meeting in which both people are going to voluntarily show up. And the fear that's expressed as annoyance, it's going to be replaced by apprehension that you can replace with some other emotion. And it's a lot easier to work with apprehension on a volunteer than it is to work with fear on somebody you've ambushed. It's an easier emotional sort of game to play when we're dealing with that more awkward conversation. The cold conversation. One of the beauties is, the only thing you have to believe in deeply and sincerely, is the potential value of the meeting for the human being you're talking to in the case where you're never going to do business with them, and this is the only time in business. (09:03): I think there's such a thing as a universal framing. You can deeply believe no matter what you're selling, you can deeply believe my company are experts at this because we're specialists and this other person is a generalist and can learn from us. And what strikes me as especially odd is the product training that goes on for salespeople, even those who are setting meetings, is not about the product that they're selling, which is the meeting. So they never learn about that product, which is the only product that they have to sell and be sincerely to have that sincere belief in its value. And it's so odd. I have yet to see one time across all of B2B that I've run into, and you guys know, I see a little bit of it. I've never had a yes answer to this. So can you break down the discovery meeting for me that this person's going to have? Who says yes in terms of the value that they're likely to receive from attending that meeting?

In our brave new AI-augmented world, navigating tech integration while retaining that human trust factor remains a tricky balancing act. So who better to provide expert guidance than our sage of sales, Chris Beall? Today our very own ChatGPT steps in as co-host for Corey to pepper Chris across the AI-sales trust landscape. Should we unleash these bots to comb leads? How do we mitigate client skepticism? Does transparency enhance trust? Chris distills hard-earned wisdom on these questions and more. From specific use cases in training and process efficiency to ethical dilemmas around transparency, you’ll gain critical insights for smoothly integrating AI without severing those all-important human connections. Chris even gazes into the future, weighing engaging versus alienating roles for our robot friends. Chris offers actionable advice so we can deploy AI judiciously while cementing bonds of respect and rapport. Time to bridge that tech-touch gap in this episode, Balancing Relationships and Efficiency in AI Sales   FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below: Chris Beall  (00:14): Hey everybody, this is Chris Beall, CEO of ConnectAndSell. And today I am not joined by Corey Frank, my co-host. Corey runs the awesome company, branch 49, in addition to many other things, finishing school for future CEOs by providing folks who want to be great professionals in the world of business with the opportunity to learn how to talk to strangers by cold calling them. So I asked chat GPT today to come up with 10 questions to play the role of Corey and kind of interview me Now, poor chat, GPT doesn't get to listen to the answers. I could probably have it do that, but I'm not going to do that. But I asked it to give us an opportunity to talk about a topic that is near and dear to me, which is the relationship between trust and efficiency in B2B sales in the era of chat GBT.  Chris Beall  (01:12): And there's a lot of speculation out there as to where all this is going. I've been fairly immersed in AI for a long time, since 1992 in fact, and certainly am delighted that we have the ability to get to the next level with ChatGPT and all the GPT-4 stuff. And it does lots and lots of neat things. Many people speculate on what it might be able to do in sales, replace salespeople and so forth. I thought I'd explore just this one question, which is how about trust and efficiency? Are they actually at opposite ends of the spectrum? That is if we ramp up efficiency too far in B2B sales, do we ramp down trust or is there a case to be made for trust and efficiency actually working together in B2B sales. Now, just to remind my view of B2B sales, pretty simple. We need to establish ourselves with somebody else, another human being as an expert in a matter that's important to them and as on their side.  Chris Beall  (02:18): If we can do that, we become what's called a trusted advisor. And a trusted advisor has a lot of freedom to get good information, quality information from another party so that they can bring their own expertise to bear and guide the process of coming up with a potential solution to a business problem that can result in a commercial transaction between the seller's business they work for and the buyer business, the one they work for. So trust is super important, but efficiency is important too because there's a question of, well, who are we going to sell to? There's a lot of folks out there we could talk to. Most of them will not be ready to  Chris Beall (02:58): Buy in the near term, even if they fundamentally need our offering, and most of them probably don't need our offering if we're at all specialized. I happen to work for a company called ConnectAndSell that provides something that lots of B2B companies need, but not all of them need it to the same degree. And so we have an efficiency problem just like everybody else. How do you efficiently go through the market and find the folks that are worth exploring with further, this is why the end of every sales interaction or the outcome of every sales interaction is the same. It answers the question, should we mutually decide to go down the road further together? So I asked chat GPT to play host Corey. It is standing in for you right now. And here's its first question.   Chris, could you start by giving us a brief overview of how chat GT and similar AI technologies are currently being integrated into B2B sales processes?  Chris Beall (03:56): Well, one place we know they're being integrated into B2B sales processes is in conversational intelligence. Almost every conversational intelligence technology now, and in technologies like the one I'm using here Zoom video, I've got the ability to summarize conversations using a GPT model. What does that really give us in B2B sales? Well, one thing it gives us is time compression. If I'm a manager and I'm trying to understand how are all the deals going, I can talk to my reps and have one-on-ones, I can have one-on manys where we do some pipeline review or deal review, all of those things are available, but if I could take every 30-minute conversation and have it compressed down to me into 10 relevant points that I can rely on, I can actually learn what's going well, and also where it might be worth bringing some other resources to bear, whether they're technical resources, whether it's a senior executive, whether it's some brainstorming, other resources might be worth bringing in at a certain point.  Chris Beall (05:07): And these technologies are awfully good at this. So they're helping us be managers to participate more in the sales process without interfering in it. And it's really an efficiency play. Now the efficiency comes from taking a 15, 20, 30 minute conversation, maybe longer compressing it down to 10 relevant points that can be read in about one to two minutes. So that's call it 30 to one compression of time. And that means as a manager, if I had time for say 10% of all the conversations that are happening to come into my brain, so to speak, I now have time for a hundred percent and it only takes 30% of my day. So it's quite an amazing breakthrough. And how does it speak to trust? Well, it's kind of interesting. We need to trust that GPT compressor that took the information from a 30-minute conversation and the transcription engine that gave that information to the GPT engine for analysis.  Chris Beall (06:14): We need to trust that it's kind of getting the whole thing that is, we wouldn't want to find out, oh, it gave me kind of a vanilla compression or a vanilla list and there's a disaster going on in there and I didn't notice it because once we rely on something like a piece of technology to help us out, it can often introduce blind spots. This happens quite literally when you're driving old-fashioned car mirrors, you have a blind spot right next to you, but you're relying on the mirror to tell you who's right next to you and you can make certain kinds of errors more frequently. So that's a place anyway where these technologies are being used in a very efficient way. They're also being used to write, I'll call it better emails. And I don't mean these automated emails that are being sent out effectively as spam, let's just face it too many, many folks.  Chris Beall (07:10): But really just writing better than most reps. Let's face it, most sales reps did not grow up as readers and writers. Some did, but most are better talkers and listeners. And so having an assistant, a co-pilot as they're called to actually draft an email for you to do it in a professional way and to do it in what it thinks is your voice, it's dynamite, saves a lot of time for the rep, but that's not mostly the time. The rep can maybe get to the point of trusting that technology to frankly write better than the rep does. It's certainly more efficient. So let's go into the second question. So ChatGPT or Corey in stand-in mode here is asking me.   (2) In your experience, how has the incorporation of AI like ChatGPT affected the level of trust between sales professionals and their B2B clients?    I would say not at all in the case where trust is actually being established, but I think it has kind of fooled a lot of sales professionals into thinking that they can generate trust in a mechanical way by having some AI write lots and lots of very clever emails, very wonderful emails and just send 'em out to folks.  Chris Beall (08:29): And somehow, that will generate trust-level relationships. I don't believe it. I still believe that there are those seven seconds that we have in an ambush call or a cold call to get trust, and that has to do with how people work on the inside. So if I read something that may have been generated by a bot, and I know that's true of everything that comes my way at this point, it affects the level of trust immediately because I think, well, why would I trust a vendor's bot? I know what its job is. Oddly enough, I will actually be more inclined to trust a salesperson that I know is a person, but how do I know that that's a person? Well, I can't know it through a bunch of texts that's on the screen an email. I need to actually be speaking with that person and they need to be acting like themselves, so to speak.  Chris Beall (09:20): So even if they were replaced with a bot, it'd have to be a really, really good bot. It's not enough to fool me into think it's a person. It has to enable me to comfortably say, yes, this is this person and by the way, get me to the point where I believe they're an expert and they're on my side.  So how about efficiency improvements?    This is question number three that chat GPT came up with playing the role of Corey Frank,    3) Can you provide specific examples of how AI tools made B2B sales processes more efficient coaching? No difficulty coming up with an example or two. I've already given one of them. I think there are more to come. I believe we'll actually get to the point where AI tools will help us look for how a whole team is doing or how a campaign is doing right now.  Chris Beall (10:10): It seems to be very much one at a time. Here's a conversation, analyze the conversation, take a look. What about analyzing all the conversations or a bunch of conversations that fits some criteria or finding the challenges that are thematic within a team's efforts to reach out to the market? Do we really know who our message is resonating with in ways that one of these AI models can pay attention to? These things are tremendous at finding patterns within vast amounts of detail. So that would make it more efficient to find out who to talk to or more efficient to find out where our own team is challenged or those kinds of things. Bigger chunks I would call it. So those are some examples. By today. Most of it is conversation at a time or doing some writing and also doing some research for us. So if we are out trying to do some research before a conversation, a meeting that we're having with somebody, certainly AI can help us a lot because it reads faster than we do.  Chris Beall (11:17): It's probably already read about this person. But one thing for sure, and this is about trust, remember GPT technologies hallucinate facts. So if you rely on facts that have come back from an interaction, a chat with a GPT technology, you probably are going to be brought up short someday. This is why lawyers have been caught recently trying to use ChatGPT and similar technologies to generate citations, legal citations, and they'll use them confidently and it turns out well, it wasn't a citation, it was a hallucination.   Alright, so next question from our virtual bot named Corey Frank,   (4 )How do you see companies balancing the use of AI with the need for human interaction in sales? Is there a sweet spot?    Well, let's work the other way around on this one. The need for human interaction in sales is absolute because of what I already said, which is we need to establish ourselves as the seller, as an expert who is on the other person's side.  Chris Beall (12:24): We can afford to be on their side. We're the expert after all, they're the buyer. They're a generalist about what we are an expert on. So is there a sweet spot with regard to using AI? All of research is a sweet spot because the AI can lead us to understanding things about the world that would be too expensive for us to go find out, like who should we be talking to or what's going on in this particular field? Or there's some new developments that we should be paying attention to and so forth. So AI is great for research, great for drafting, but we have to be a little careful in final form. So proposals, sure, draft a proposal, you GPT model, but am I going to s end it off without taking a look at it? No. It actually implies that there's going to be other human interactions kind of to check that what the AI is producing is accurate and compliant, which is also a big issue.  Chris Beall (13:22): Well, how about in sales training? How can, this is question number five.  (5) How can Che GPT and similar technologies be used in training sales teams to enhance their efficiency while maintaining trust with clients?    Well, one thing you can do with the GPT model is make a simulator that plays the role of a client. And certainly, if you're working off an awful lot of client responses, which are all out there for almost every kind of product in the world, getting a simulator out of a GPT model is pretty straightforward and chat is a very natural way to do it. Now I'll give you the caveat on this, which is when it comes to establishing trust with the human voice, the human voice is a human voice, not a human keyboard. So you can simulate by going back and forth using your fingers. You can also do it using speech-to-text, but it's the sound of your voice that is crucial, especially in those first few seconds. It's actually always crucial, and it may well be that, fairly soon, these AI models can listen to the sound of our voice and give us feedback as to how trustworthy we sound. That would be a wonderful thing. Right now, they're not quite there. They're fairly easy to kind of fool into thinking that we sound wonderful. It's very subtle what human beings pick up on with regard to trust. I've often said people are to trust or  Chris Beall (14:51): As wolves are to fear, they can smell it. And if you're not trustworthy folks, they can so to speak, smell it in your voice. I know that sounds weird, I'm not talking about some synthesia either. So how about ethical considerations? What are this?  (6) Question number six, What are some ethical considerations the companies should keep in mind when deploying AI in their sales process?  There is one, keep this in mind. If your bot is talking to a client, it needs to say it's a bot. That's pretty simple. Transparency is always the way to get to a high level of ethics, and I have a bad feeling there's going to be a lot of folks saying, well, that wasn't me. That was my bot after the fact. Instead of saying it upfront, you got to be upfront. So that's a big, big ethical consideration. Another one is, if your bot or your AI is giving advice, expert advice, you better make sure it's actually expert advice because you take on a little bit of what I would call kind of a Hippocratic stance.  Chris Beall (16:01): That is, first you do no harm. When you advise somebody, you have to be conscious of the harm you might be potentially doing to them when they follow your advice. And so, just blindly saying, Hey, the advice from my GPT model is just go ahead and follow it without having it checked. It's not just a problem that you might not be trusted. You might be committing a pretty serious ethical breach.    Alright, so how about question number seven.  (7) From your perspective, how do B2B clients generally perceive the use of AI and sales interactions? Does it enhance or diminish trust?  Chris Beall (16:44): It depends. If you give me something that you say was generated by your AI, by your chatbot or by your GPT model and you say, Hey, I had the GPT model whip this up for you and I took a look at it, it looks pretty good to me. Let's discuss. No worries at all. In fact, it might enhance trust because you're being open and transparent about using your technology, this technology to be more efficient and to bring in maybe other points of view or to digest more data that might be useful to the client. So in that case, I think you can enhance trust. I think destroying trust is really, really easy. I think I just hit on it in the previous answer, which is, hey, ask somebody to trust a piece of automation that you're providing and don't tell them that it's automation. That one is going to cause not an erosion of trust, but a step function down from some number, probably not quite one if one is the highest number but to zero, and once trust is lost, it is not something you can go and get back.  Chris Beall (17:52): So how about skepticism this question number eight, (8) If there's skepticism or resistance from sales teams or clients towards AI tools like ChatGPT, how do you recommend addressing these concerns? Well, a couple of different ways. There will always be skepticism about new technology. There should be. New technology means new, it's unproven. We're not sure what it does. Really, really cool technology that makes you think something that's not actually true. Like, hey, ChatGPT is a person who's talking to me. That's not actually true. Hey, ChatGPT is thinking about this. That's not actually true. It's a next engine. It knows a lot of stuff that it's read so to speak, and it knows how to spit out the next token think token word, very similar concepts. And so when ChatGPT is talking to us so to speak, it's really just going next, next, next. Now maybe our minds work like this too, and our voices work like this.  Chris Beall (18:52): I have a feeling we do a lot of next, next, next, ourselves. It's just the way the world is. We love to think that we're really brilliant, having deep, deep thoughts and all that. Probably not. We're probably just spitting out the next word that comes to mind. That's why we call it comes to mind. And so it's natural skepticism is natural. The way skepticism is overcome is through two things. One is transparency, it let's be open about things. And the other is track record. So if the track record is good, and we note that over time some particular function, and I'll go back to those conversations where you take a discovery meeting, and the AI compresses it down to 10 points. Well, the first time I read one I might think maybe it's missing some things. By the time I've read a hundred of them, which only takes me a hundred minutes that I might've spread over a couple of weeks, I'm starting to go, Hey, I think this is pretty good.  Chris Beall (19:47): I don't have any big misses yet. But it just takes time. It takes time, and it takes experience. This is why the most skeptical people who are really, really smart plunge in and start experiencing what I call in anger or with an intent for a meaningful outcome, a new technology that is clearly as powerful as ChatGPT and all the things that are like it. So if you haven't gotten in there and put your hands on it, so to speak, and made some mistakes, try writing some prompts and seeing what happens. Don't just do the same thing over and over. Your skepticism only will go away appropriately and correctly with experience that leads to track record because now you kind of know where the landmines are.  How about question number nine, future trends.  (9) Looking ahead, how do you think the role of AI and B2B sales will evolve? What new developments should we expect? I think the main developments we should expect are around efficiency. We will get much, much more efficient in B2B sales when two things happen. One is we have a better idea of who to talk to, who to go out and have conversations with that is very efficient. Secondly, we will be able to efficiently assess new people coming onto our team, assess performance of people on our team and help them get better. There's a lot of detailed information and patterns that can be detected, and those can be detected in meetings so they can be detected in targeting or in messages and we will be able to bring that stuff together much, much more efficiently so that we can generate trust more frequently. And if you think about B2B from a sales perspective, it's essentially the manufacturing and management of a portfolio of trust. So first, you have to be worthy of trust; okay, that might be the hard part.  Chris Beall (21:48): But once you're worthy of trust, are you being trusted by enough folks who might be able to take advantage in a good way of what it is that you provide? Probably not. I see AI, this GPT type, as being able to help us sift through, make sense out of detect patterns in larger amounts of data with different data sources so that we'll just do a better job of having the right people talk to the right people often enough and generate more trust because that's how it works over time and do so efficiently. So, allowing the generation of trust efficiently I think is going to be the main role of AI for quite a while in the world of B2B. And then finally, advice for sales leaders number 10. So Corey, here you are being played by ChatGPT who asked the final question.   (10) Finally, what advice would you give to sales leaders looking to integrate AI into their strategies without compromising on the trust and personal connection that's vital in B2B sales?  Chris Beall (22:53): Well, my advice is kind of always the same, and I know people might get a little bored with it, but it is what it is; that is you're trying to essentially pave a market with trust. A market is a list of people that if any one of them decides to do business with you, it reduces your cost and risk of doing business with every single other person. And therefore, their are companies in that market. Now that is not an oversimplification, but it hides some things like the flow of people through that list. Some come on, some go off, they retire, they go to new companies, they do all sorts of things. So there's a lot that goes on. And usually your market is not defined very, I'll say, coherently. That is markets normally are simply made up. Oh, we're going to sell to all industrial companies who have more than a thousand employees who are located in these states or something like that.  Chris Beall (23:51): That's a kind of target market that you can think of, but it's not a true target market because it doesn't follow the rule that we were just talking about. So okay, so I got this market out there. Now what's my advice? Well, you had to pave the market with trust, but you have to do that both in a targeted way and a little bit of a promiscuous way. That is you have to take the current opportunity and you have to identify it targeted, not just among those who might need what you offer, but among those who are more likely to need it. So we're going to have more application of AI to determine different levels of intent. Now we tend to determine intent from something super simple, which is, oh, they visited a website or they went to G2Crowd or whatever it happens to be, right?  Chris Beall (24:41): Action indicates intent. Well, there's a lot of other ways that folks express intent, mostly through investment and mostly maybe about investment in people. So there's going to be a lot to be done with regard to paying attention to how you can identify the folks that you need to pay attention to in the market while also helping the 11 twelfths of your market that's not in market right now be more accessible and that you understand more about them and more favorably inclined to think that you are somebody they can trust to be an expert in an area they care about and that you're on their side.  So just by sticking to those principles, then we are very free to use these technologies in creative ways. When we abandon those principles, we enter the danger zone and we're probably not going to do too well. So I just want to thank my virtual Corey Frank here, ChatGPT for asking.  Chris Beall (25:42): I answered these questions. I think they're pretty sharp questions. Did ChatGPT think them up per se? No, it responded to a prompt.  Here's the prompt,    please play the role of Corey Frank, co-host of the podcast Market Dominance Guys, you will be interviewing Chris Beall on the topic “the relationship between trust and efficiency and B2B sales and the era of ChatGPT”. Please generate 10 questions for Chris to answer. So Corey may well be a next engine himself and spit out questions like this one word at a time. I think he probably goes into a little bit deeper conceptual well than ChatGPT. But ChatGPT, you did a pretty darn good job there. I really appreciate it. And until next time, for Corey Frank, this is Chris Beall, Market Dominance Guys.  

Discovery calls are typically auditory-only affairs, but this episode of Market Dominance Guys reminds us that we are physical beings having a full-person experience. As Chris emphasizes, you don't converse with a brain in a jar, so why disconnect your body from the persuasive power of discovery? From micro-prancing, to miming props, to the hepatic value of gestures and pauses, your physical presence profoundly impacts connection, emphasis, and revelation. Body language not only expresses what pure words cannot, but it heightens the musicality and truth-emergence Chris describes as “letting the silence breathe.” So start envisioning your prospects, get your blood pumping, and bring your whole self into alignment with the call. It’s time to let your full-bodied discovery create breathing space for truth. What non-verbal techniques will you incorporate next call? This is a continuation of last week's discussion with Henry Wojdyla and Shawn Sease. You can listen to the previous episode here. EP206: Mastering the Art of Silence How Pauses Can Improve Discovery Links from this episode: Shawn Sease on LinkedIn Henry Wojdyla on LinkedIn Corey Frank on LinkedIn Chris Beall on LinkedIn Branch49 ConnectAndSell   FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:   Corey Frank (00:00): Chris, I know you and fetching Ms. Fanucci got back from a recent trip to the wine country in the south of France, and I think you told me a few stories about how certain wines need to breathe after they're open differently than others. And Henry, it sounds like what you're trying to teach us here is that there are certain questions that you can just let, is there a French term for that, Chris, that breathing? What's the wine?  Chris Beall (00:24): My French sucks, but it is ironic when you think about it, right? I think this actually is a pretty APTT analogy you've brought up. The wine is corked so that it almost doesn't breathe. It actually breathes a little bit. This why real corks are considered to be important in some kinds of wines because there's a little oxidation that needs to go on over a long period of time. There's a little breathing, but then you went a lot of breathing reasonably fast. I have no idea what that is called In French, my French got better after 21 tastings one morning before lunch, and then we climbed a mountain together that it was really quite fluent, I'm sure at that point. But I don't think I knew how to talk about this, but it is really something. I mean, this is true in music also. The silences are where the music has actually heard, so to speak, when you're learning to play.  Chris Beall (01:13): Henry is a musical person. He's been involved in this sort of stuff too. When you're learning to play as a little kid, the rest don't mean nothing to you. And when somebody's a virtuoso, the rests are everything. It's the timing of the silence and the precision of the silence that allows the listener to become part of the music. And that's what you're really looking for in discovery is you want the other person to become a producer of the music of these truths that are coming out and you're working together on them as shunts. I love that. We're going to do this together. We're not going to do it. I think that's not so much of a command, like I'm setting up a set of conditions. Either you do this with me or we're not going to do it. It's a statement of fact. Either we're going to do it together or we're not going to do it, as in we're not really going to get it done.  Chris Beall (02:02): We're just going to kind of sound like we're getting it done or act like we're getting it done. And getting to the bottom of stuff is quite difficult with folks. It takes pregnant pauses. I mean, pregnant pauses give birth at some point, and sometimes they give birth to stuff that's pretty magnificent to something new and it's the hardest thing we love to fill in. You imagine a podcast, say we ran the podcast like this, Corey, you ask a question. We all just sit here and look at the audience for, I don't know, 30 or 40 seconds.  Corey Frank (02:34): Yeah, yeah. Take off the glasses once in a while, right? We've talked about that here at branches is the world of hepatic and NLP, and I know we have to cut you loose here in a minute, Henry, for a seven or eight, nine or figure deal here that you're pursuing. But can you use those verbal disfluencies, the hepatic, the pregnant pauses to take off your glasses and lean forward as if we were together where there's a figurative me reaching out just slightly touching your knee as I take off my glasses and leaning forward a good doctor would like a good therapist would, and tell you what I think. And with the deep baritone with the late-night FM DJ voice that our friend Chris Vos talks about, there's a musicality of that glorious bastards, right? One of my favorite scenes is towards the end when they're trying to impersonate, they're an Italian film crew.  Corey Frank (03:25): We all remember it. Christophe Waltz knows that they're not Italian, but he has them introduce themselves name by name, and he says, what's your name? And is his Antonio Margarita or whatever his name is? Well, say it again. Let the music flow. He says, let the music of your name flow. And I just thought that was incredible that there's certain words that you can enunciate and Henry's got a great tone. I could listen to Henry read the phone book Vincent Price, and you have Christopher Lee and there's one that will post to this that I tagged Yuan, a LinkedIn post from a gentleman who I thought had, what an incredible novel way to introduce himself. His name is Andrea Kliman. Chris, I don't know if you saw that. Ronan a good friend, Ronan Ssar, but his intro, the gentleman, and you remember this call Shawn. It was all pushed forward by his tone.  Corey Frank (04:19): It was very novel, it was very serendipitous and it wreaked of authenticity because of that and the trust he had me, and I've never heard an intro like this before. We'll link it to this podcast here so people can hear of it. Then I did while you were talking, Henry and Chris, I think my French sucks too, but the appropriate term is eon, I guess to aeration. And so I think we said Eon de latia. So the Wtia method is to ask a question and to just let it breathe and let it aate. Let ruminate.  Henry Wojdyla (04:56): You're making it sound far more eloquent than it probably really is since you've mentioned a few names. Someone for me is a more recent discovery. I'm sure you're been aware of him for some time. And Corey, he's in your neck of the woods there in Scottsdale that really I think has some good thinking and training around this is Jeremy Minor. I'm assuming you're familiar with Jeremy. Don't know what your thoughts are there. Not really tremendously get into it, but I've just found some of his thinking around it. Helpful. At least for me.  Corey Frank (05:20): He uses hepatic a lot where he'll use the props, right? Henry of take it off his sunglasses and emphasizing, and we have Chris and Shawn Miller. We have a lot of standup desks and I'm Sicilian, so I have to talk with my hands and I have to have a prop in my hands at all times. And so I think maybe the last thought, Chris and Shawn and Henry for you, certainly as you're dealing with high stakes deals is things and props and pacing mechanisms. You do the micro prancing, Chris, which I'm sure keeps you on pace for your phone calls, but maybe we'll put a bow in it and go around the horn between Henry and Chris and Shawn here on your go-to techniques. If I'm a new sales rep and I don't employ just fluencies or tonality or I'm not aware of my tonality or I don't use props or micro, give me your one go-to that I should have in my arsenal as a new sales rep when I'm doing discovery. So Shawn, let's start with you.  Shawn Sease (06:12): I got here. I'm afraid if I say something, I'm going to steal Chris's thunder because I've been mentoring under him for so long that I might say something that I learned from him.  Chris Beall (06:21): Don't worry, Shawn, I ain't going to run out of thunder anytime soon.  Shawn Sease (06:24): Yeah, yeah, go ahead Chris.  Chris Beall (06:28): Well, I was on somebody else's podcast yesterday and we're talking about language thinking and speaking. What happens when we speak and we tend to be very abstract about these concepts. We act as though we might be chat GPT, and it's just one word after another coming out. We add the disfluencies, we add the tonality, we start to sing, and we think that we're doing that with our brain and maybe some little part of our voice box or something like that. I truly believe that we think with our whole body and we've never walked into a room none of us have, and there's a brain and a jar and we have a conversation with it, right? The person is a whole person. When I'm micro prancing, I'm a whole person in motion. I realize not everybody in our vast audience will know what micro prancing is. Just so you know. It's a technique I accidentally developed to train for a very difficult marathon, the Mount Lemon Marathon in Tucson in a room in India, that in which I had 10 meters in which to train, and I'm getting ready to run 23 miles uphill, one mile flat, one mile super uphill, one mile, very down. So that's what micro prancing is. For those of you who want to learn more about it, there is no place you can go to learn about micro prancing. It just is what it is. Well,  Corey Frank (07:47): Actually, sorry, Chris. There is a place you can go see the old Monty Python Ministry of silly walks. I think that's probably the closest that people will get to your microprancing. But go ahead.  Chris Beall (07:57): Yeah, that was Michael Prancing too, which is a special thing. But to me it's like when you're bringing your whole person to be helpful to somebody else, you are a whole person. You're actually a physical person. You're not just a bunch of words streaming out. You're not a recording of something. It's not a trick. You're there to be authentic. You have to also be in your physical self, and it's fun to play with people like that. I do it on calls all the time. I'll do a thing where I do this. It's like we're talking about cold calling us. I hold up the flight school shirts. I see flight school, right? Because it's real. And that's how we think about others too. We think about what we're hearing from other people with their bodies also, and that's why you have to be highly respectful of the late great Stephen Hawkin.  Chris Beall (08:47): Can you imagine having that little control of your body and being able to think and express thoughts that big? It's one of the most amazing bridging of a gap that's fundamental that we take for granted. However, he had a wonderful physical struggle, which was actually physically communicating. So without that, the game can't be played at all, so to speak. So anyway, my advice to folks about this is you and the other person are both real people. Zoom didn't make us into anything else. We're still physical bodies and references to that. My story about my first conversation with Helen of substance where I said, use the word blood. There are words that invoke physical reactions in us or evoke them that allow us to get closer to the truth with each other, that break down some barriers that offer opportunities for silence that's productive, and it's smart to learn how to use those words fluently so we can use them fluently when appropriate. You cannot be disfluent on any words that you can't emit fluently. It just doesn't work. It just doesn't. Your body has to be capable of executing the language in a way that works for the other person all the way through if you want to execute the language in a way that works for them even better.  Corey Frank (10:09): It's not mere words that matter. It's not just belief. As we've talked about right now, you have the triumvirate of your words, your belief and your body, it sounds like. That's great, Henry, thoughts on that?  Henry Wojdyla (10:21): My answer is going to be a little bit different. In fact, in some ways it's not necessarily contradictory, but I think you use the term hepatic. Is that correct, Cory? Just to show how little I know about this.  Corey Frank (10:30): Yes, it's part of this. When your aunt grabs your cheek, when people touch your elbow, they touch your knee just naturally at the base of conversation.  Henry Wojdyla (10:37): I think when it comes in the context of discovery call, and if I'm really getting into a deep, I almost might go to the other direction, meaning I will often close my eyes, sometimes I'll even rest my head on my hands, whatever. Again, these are telephone-based, so I'm not mostly on a Zoom. I'd probably conduct a little bit differently if I was in that format, but somewhat like I was saying, shut up to allow them to speak. I'm also shutting up in blocking out all of their sensory perceptions. So I'm really truly listening, very simple, not necessarily the most elegant answer, but it's the truth, and I'm finding that it's actually really helping. Nothing else that's going on through my mind. I'm not looking at all the multiple screens that are in front of me, any distractions. It is 1000% focus on that prospect. The words that are coming out of the mouth, the what they're saying, the way they're saying it, what they might not be saying. It allows me to really, really just drill down, distill things, and I kind of get that mental image of the confessional that Chris and you talk about. So that's probably the mental imagery that's going on, but that's how I try to physically manifest it.  Corey Frank (11:38): Yeah, I can see that. I'm sure, Shawn, when you close your eyes, you still see and feel and hear the drill instructor from when you were 17 years old. But what other advice would you have for somebody jumping onto a discovery call in this world? What's the one technique you would give to them as we round out this version of the market Dominus, guys,  Shawn Sease (11:58): Earlier today, I shared another phrase with you that I believe, I think it's universal truth and it's kind of self-evident that the truth is curative, right? The truth is curative. And I mean, if we're going to actually be able to share secrets with each other and have real confessional-type conversations that it has to be genuine. And then you bring up the concept of how to listen, right? How do you listen? And just one technique that I have found, I picked it up along the way from other psychologists people before me again, is to say things back to people, to say back to somebody what they said to you, right? It requires that you listen. And I think another important add-on to that is to say it back to them. If you can have the acumen and experience and so on, to say it back to them in a way that maybe fortifies or even improves what they said.  Shawn Sease (12:41): And from a discovery and sales perspective, if you want to build, truly build trust, say it back to, even if you disagree, if it doesn't fit with where you need them to go, which would be persuasion and convincing and things like that, which I am just not a fan of, I'd rather have a conversation with somebody, say it back to them and they say, you know what? That's interesting. Or say it back to them in a way that fortifies their argument, especially if you disagree. And then when you hand that baton back to 'em, my experience and what I've learned from trying it is that they'll continue to talk or they'll say, that's right, the gvo thing. Right? Negotiation. That's right. Great. Okay. Next, let's move on to the next thing. So that was a lot in there, authenticity, listening. The truth is curative all outside of the scope of very popular things like persuasion and bending people to your will and being crafty and things like that. It's just simply not my way. I prefer to go that other route that is genuine and authentic, and those are some of the tools I use to get there.  Corey Frank (13:34): Beautiful, beautiful. I love that. Especially that word you do it effortlessly is certain words that resonates in the language for me. And I have a list of 'em, but the one that you just mentioned, you said fortify. That's a very underutilized word, wouldn't you say? Think Chris and Henry. That's a good word to use earlier. Chris Henry, I think you and I peaked up when Chris used the word longitudinal qualities. Things have longitudinal clients. It's that's a good one. But the last question, lightning quick here, Henry. And I know you've been very gracious with your time, but I'm curious, do you screenplay and script out your discovery calls? Do you have the first X amount of questions? Do you have a goal in mind? You've done this so many times, the hundreds of millions of dollars in worth of properties and assets that you've sold and helped a broker through. But for your discovery calls in this new era over the last few years or so, do you screenplay them or script them out, or how do you structure them to make sure that they're replicable?  Henry Wojdyla (14:32): I do have the euphemistic playbook I talk about, which is literal. I've got the copyright here in my desk in front of me. The discovery call is structured and scripted and thought through. I will tell you I'm using it less and less, and it's partly for the reasons of the topics that we're discussing here. Some of it's perhaps just having gotten the reps now so many times that some of it's just getting ingrained. But I'm finding that if I'm truly discovering and truly letting the prospect, more importantly, it becomes less and less reliant upon scripts. There's still a basic framework in place. Obviously, you have to have a certain objective, and we have a little bit of benefit perhaps because we're in a very narrow niche. It's very well defined. We know who we're speaking with. There's not really much in the way of qualification that needs to go on.  Henry Wojdyla (15:16): They're definitionally qualified if they're in our tam. So that's a separate topic. So there's certain freight that doesn't need to be carried in our particular discovery context that might be in others. So with all those caveats in place, I'm finding that I am moving further away from a kind of regimented discovery call. If I had to guess, just take the long view here, I'm going to probably cycle back. But when I get back to the more structured approach, it'll be a re-engineered, reconstituted approach that's going to be much more heavily reliant upon tonality and sub-concepts we've been discussing here.  Corey Frank (15:48): I get it. I am more of an advocate myself, Chris, and I'll give you the last word as we round up this episode on screenplay Out, every pause and in the Discovery, the Cohen Brothers from Big Lebowski. Every “dude” was screenplay, was scripted, was written in there on purpose. David Fincher from, I think, Fight Club. Every nuance is written in there. And there are certain directors that are just adamant that what they write, they want the actor a pause, an “er” alike to be in there. And I find that helps replicate because we have a larger team, Henry, obviously with your team there as a contributor with your practice. But we're trying to scale it up, and I'm trying to look for the factors that would diminish the opportunity in that discovery call. And so every nuance or word matters, but Chris, give the last word to you on this episode of discovery and tonality in the world of discovery calls.  Chris Beall (16:50): Well, I love the point you just made. I mean, we practice as professionals at anything so that we can improvise based on what's happening without the practice. We have no foundation for improvising, without being willing to improvise. We can't adapt to reality. So reality, that's where the truth, the truth is out there somewhere and everybody has a plan, as they say, until X, Y, or Z happens. But you better practice your plan, so to speak, so that your speech can be ballistic, so to speak, right? It's like you can't throw a ball or you can't do anything that's athletic, a little tiny piece at a time. You've got to get to the point where you can do it smoothly. And then having learned that you can do it in reality, where there's going to be things that interrupt the smoothness, you can riff safely  Corey Frank (17:41): For sure, or right. When in doubt, just let it aerate. Just let it breathe.  Henry Wojdyla (17:46): Let it simmer. Let it simmer.  Corey Frank (17:48): That's beautiful. Well, excellent. Well, thank you gentlemen. Thank you, Henry, for jumping on this episode of Market Thomas. Guys and Shawn, thank you for having, it was a pleasure, the professor, professor of Prospecting, stop on by the studio.  Henry Wojdyla (18:03): I'm glad we could. So it's good to see everybody, Shawn and Snake to make your acquaintance been a fan of yours on LinkedIn for a while, so it's nice to thank you very much. Yeah, absolutely.  Corey Frank (18:12): That's beautiful,  Chris Beall (18:12): Guys. That was really cool. I love it  Corey Frank (18:16): So far. Chris Beal from Connected Cell. This is Corey Frank. Until next time.  

What's the secret sauce to nailing discovery calls? Is it your intricate questioning strategy? Your ability to build quick rapport? We're exploring an underappreciated element today - the power of tonality.  From a Marine drill sergeant's verbal shock and awe to real estate power players commanding eight-figure deals, our esteemed guests get vocal about vocal dynamics.  Join Chris, Corey, and their guests, Henry Wojdyla and Shawn Sease as they battle assumptions, pregnant pauses, and the occasional restraining order. You'll hear straight from the horse's mouth why tonality eclipses terminology and how losing your cool in discovery can cost you deals. If your team overlooks today's vocal victory tips, you'll condemn them to tone-deaf discovery call defeats. Listen to this episode: Mastering the Art of Silence: How Pauses Can Improve Discovery Links from this episode: Shawn Sease on LinkedIn Henry Wojdyla on LinkedIn Corey Frank on LinkedIn Chris Beall on LinkedIn Branch49 ConnectAndSell   FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Below:   Corey Frank (01:14): Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys, with Corey Frank, and of course, always at my virtual side is Chris Beall, the stage of sales, the prophet of profit and the hawking of caulking. But we also have two other extra special guests. We happen to be graced in our in-house home Phoenix GCU-based studios with the professor of prospecting, Shawn Sease himself. Good afternoon, Shawn. Shawn Sease (01:42): Good afternoon. Thanks for having me. Corey Frank (01:43): And we have one of our eight registered listeners, Chris, of our podcast, the most gracious and esteemed Henry Wojdyla from RealSource. Henry, it's great to have you on the podcast, back on the podcast. I think you're one of our earlier guests, I believe so, Chris. So good to have you, gentlemen. We have a first here at Market Dominance Guys. We actually have four talking heads, three brains amongst four talking heads, so we'll see what we can do here. (02:12): What we wanted to talk about is something we were talking about before we jumped on air. And Chris, I want to have you have the opportunity to tee up Henry, because I thought it was a compelling topic about tonality, but not just in cold calls, which we often talk about the surfboard and the surfer. But Henry brought up a very compelling point. Shawn, I'd like to get your take on this too, about the importance of tonality and when and how you use it in discovery calls. Chris, so I'll leave it to you to tee up our good friend Henry here and let's dive into this topic. Chris Beall (02:42): Sure. I mean, the conversation we were just having was about how much of the, well, we were talking a little bit about Branch 49 and how much of the waterfront makes sense to cover or the funnel or whatever. The big question is always, where's the bottleneck? We always talk about theory of constraints on this show, and we also know if you ever address the bottleneck, you got to stand back. You have to stand back when you've done something about the constraint and see if it moves and if so, where it moves because it's actually not easy to predict. It could move up or it could move down, so to speak, in the processes. Doesn't move sideways too often. (03:16): And Henry was talking about how when we were just chatting out there, not where you're sitting, not where he's sitting or he's sitting or I'm sitting, but where somebody else's or you're sitting, Corey. He was talking about how the tonality and disfluency is also the whole tonality package I call it, has actually become as important or more important to him as he's evolved in the way that he does discovery. And what I thought was so cool about what he hit on is we call it the confessional. And the question is, well, what are you confessing to? And while you're doing that confessing, are you learning? Are you getting self-knowledge, knowledge of your situation as a result that's facilitated by the conversation? And I think that was a point that Henry was making. So at that, Henry, what was the point you were making? Because frankly, I was just eating tacos and listening in. Henry Wojdyla (04:09): Well, it was probably the ride-on piece to the opening comment I made about some recent conversations, Chris, you and I have had, and I'll keep it brief to get back to your question. But the fact that the top of funnel has been improved so much by the good thinking here from Market Dominance Guys, the facilitation from ConnectAndSell, it gets back to the wood-turning analogy that you had so wisely laid out probably at least a couple of years ago on this podcast. But the idea that I can get enough reps in that I'm beginning to pattern match and seeing ghosts in the machine, so to speak, as it relates to discovery. And a lot of what I've been discovering about my own discovery process has been effectively getting out of the way. And a lot of getting out of the way is facilitating the prospect to do more and more self-discovery. (04:54): I will tell you that I'm not quite, I don't have a fully baked theory on this yet or the framework has not been completely fleshed out. So this is definitely a work in progress and I'd say some of my insights are only really becoming to manifest in the last couple of months, but tonality has been a huge piece of that. So getting back more to the core of what Corey and you are asking me. The tonality piece, not just open-ended questions, but the framing of those questions in a way that elicits, I think hopefully a sign of genuine concern and a search for meaning from the prospect so that they can effectively self-discover by being more open, not necessarily just from a trust perspective, but I think almost more open in their own thinking, what they are willing to put out there. I know I'm speaking in very broad strokes, but nonetheless, it's like I said, it's a work in progress, but I'm realizing just how crucial tonality is in the discovery call. (05:50): I was thinking it was primarily in the domain of a cold call. It very much is too. But I've been slowly peeling back the layers of my own self-limiting beliefs on this topic. And in fact, Corey, as I think I mentioned to you a little bit before, I was frankly a bit skeptical when I was an early listener of just the importance of phrasing, tonality, voice. I thought, "Oh, that's just huckster salesmanship type stuff," and I'm a convert. So I've come a long way in that and I'm just realizing that not only is it important, but it's important across a broader range of the sales cycle. Corey Frank (06:26): Well, it still may be huckster sales-type stuff, but it works. It's the laws of gravity. I may not believe in gravity, but gravity believes in me. Shawn, from your perspective, especially being a DISC connoisseur, what do you say to what Henry is confessing to us here about tonality and with the four different types of personalities perhaps are some personalities more susceptible, more open to that verbal disfluency, the ahs and the ums and generating that authenticity where it doesn't sound like a TED Talk, it doesn't sound like the 150th time I've done this? Shawn Sease (07:06): I think that the research on the personality stuff, especially the DISC, the four different personality types, that data is pretty conclusive that it does matter how you speak to people. But it's probably not, it's one of many, many different data points. But to answer your question directly, to get in the weeds a little bit, the I, the influence type in DISC are the kind of people that will eat up a whole entire discovery call talking about their fishing trip if you forget to get them on task. And in contrast, example to that is if you're talking to somebody calculative like a CFO, an engineer or something like that, you may want to dispense with pleasantries. But on the other hand, I think it's still very effective to just be mindful of the words that we use, like genuine transparency or being transparent, being genuine, being authentic, empathetic, things like this. (07:57): If you're not being true to those definitions, I mean, in even a maybe religious way or something like that, if it's not true, then it comes across as disingenuous and that just reeks. It reeks of sales and commerce and things like this. And so yeah, there's no doubt about it, tone, pace, pitch, all very important. And if you're listening pretty well, people will tell you everything and people are just dying to tell you their stories. And that's what I always find weird about people who have trouble with discovery. And I would trace it right back to your inability to not only create a rapport with somebody so that you have a longstanding rapport, but at the very moment that you start a conversation that you can enter a rapport. (08:36): And let me give you an example. Frequently, I send Chris weird messages maybe at 8:00 or 9:00 or 10:00 at night or something like this when I have an idea. And Chris will come back and tell me, "Hey, it's a bad time. I'm walking. I'm getting on a plane to go to Europe," or Australia or something like this. So Chris and I have a rapport, but sometimes when I call him up, it's the wrong time and we have an inability to begin a rapport, to have a conversation about what I wanted to talk to you. Timing's not right. And just pay attention to what someone's telling you and they'll tell you everything you need to know. Corey Frank (09:04): Do you find, that's an excellent point. It begets the question, Henry and Chris, on to partition a discovery call. We could break this down like our friend Oren Klaff does when he does a pitch. Are there certain aspects, Henry and Chris, when you're conducting the discovery call that you've found or that you discovered require more sensitivity to tonality, verbal disfluencies than other portions of the call? For instance, you're talking about pricing, you're talking about pain, or when you're talking about building the rapport upfront, anything that you've observed or anything that you discovered in that area? Henry Wojdyla (09:44): I would say if I had to frame it, if there's a typical structural pattern to my discovery calls, it's probably, I'll call it step two. The first step to some degree is a little bit of a slight recalibration of, okay, why are we here? Why are we assembled today? I will provide a little bit of additional contextual reminder of why we had reached out because it's not uncommon that our discovery calls, I mean, I'm speaking for the most part to fairly senior-level executives. So at the earliest, we are usually two weeks beyond when that discovery call was scheduled. They have full calendars, they're busy. So there's just a little bit of the first phase of a bit of reminder, some context, here's what we do, here's where the Venn diagram overlaps. Hopefully, that process is a little bit of a trust that's being reestablished or built upon even further. (10:28): Again, the tonality can be part of that. But I would say as parts of really the discovery is then trying to transition out of that because it's not really a commercial about us when I open, it's just a contextual framework. Then it's about getting into them what they're doing, what's on their, I guess their windscreen? What are they looking at or through that is really directing where they're vectoring as a company, as a firm. In our world where we're dealing with a subset of commercial real estate assets, so there's a lot of things that tie into not only internal factors, but external factors. And I think it's getting a lay of the land. And then they contextualize their piece. Now we've gone from serving up from our side a contextual reason why we're here today. Then we get phase two where they have responded back somewhat contextualizing where they fit in the marketplace, and then we start diving into the here and the now. (11:21): And I think that's where, we would call it step three, where I'm beginning to get this, getting back to the piece we're talking about, which is getting them to dial into the moment. Where does their company fit into the framework of the current market, the current dynamics? How are they seeing on a go forward basis? And getting them to start having thoughtful, self-reflective conversation. That's the piece that I was referring to earlier. So that's a very long-winded answer to your question. I would say it's that third step, if you will. And again, like I did mention a moment ago, this is still a work in progress for me, so that my thinking is not as clarified as I'd like it to be on this. But I can just tell you this is again, this is some of the pattern matching that I'm starting to see unfold here over the last few months. (12:08): Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it's time to really go big, you need to use an uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ successful sequencing that is fresh enough to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. From crafting just the right cold call screenplays to curating and mapping the ideal call list for your entire TAM, Branch 49's modern and innovative sales toolbox offers a guiding hand to ambitious organizations in their quest to reach market dominance. Learn more at branch49.com. Corey Frank (12:55): And Chris, you're a big believer in our friend Chris Voss and a lot of the mirroring techniques that he used. And I could see how mirroring could be incredibly effective in certain aspects of discovery. Chris Beall (13:07): Yeah, I mean, I divide these conversations into two big domains. One is the domain of the factual, where you're relatively safe talking about things that are factual. Some might be more sensitive than others. Facts, if somebody were to get in a discovery call with me and two minutes into the call they say, "So Chris, what's connectandsell? What's your current run rate revenue? What are your gross margins? And who on your team are you most concerned about that you think you might have to do something about?" And they do that two minutes in, it's like, I can go on there. Whereas in a second call or somewhere, sometime we really have a reason to talk about those facts, they won't have to be as skilled and just waiting helps. That's what Shawn was talking about. Just sometimes you just got to wait. (14:00): A disfluency is simply a form of waiting. You're waiting and letting that moment be filled in with what's in their mind. It's like when I teach really young people to play the piano, I always make this point, which is you only need to provide the structure, the sound, they'll fill in the rest in their head. The music happens over there, not out here, and not in our hands. It happens inside of them. But then there's another whole range of things that we do end up sometimes hitting on, which are really sensitive issues, like political issues internally, or concerns that this person might have about their own job, or maybe they're not going to be at that company anymore. And if they would tell you that, that'd be great. Where I think we get hung up there, and where I think tonality, disfluencies, mirroring, all of these techniques that... I never really think of them much as techniques, but all of these kinds of things you could find yourself doing if you were any good at this stuff. (14:58): Where they're just super important is where it's highly likely there are incorrect assumptions being held by you and by the other party. And it's really hard to get underneath incorrect assumptions because in order to correct one, you have to give up something that you believe. You have to or they have to. People don't like to give up anything. We all know that old thing, if I take 50 bucks from you, you'll fight me until the end of time. If I offer you 50 bucks, you'll ignore me and go on with your cat videos. It is a very tricky business to get beyond assumptions. (15:34): I had one just the other day that was interesting. I was conducting a discovery call with a very senior person at a huge insurance company. He had a very specific problem that he had been advised we could help with. I jumped to the wrong conclusion about the nature of the potential solution, and then seven minutes later, thank goodness, he said, "No, no, you don't get it. What we want to do is X." Thank goodness he felt okay correcting my assumption, which was incorrect. But that's where had I been a little less sure of myself, I wouldn't have gone as far down that road and we wouldn't have wasted seven minutes. So it's like that TED Talk thing, talking as though you know what you're talking about causes other people to feel like they should either oppose you or shut up. Corey Frank (16:25): Right. Well, I think, Shawn, certainly your career, just like you have Mr. Rice on board at ConnectAndSell who's a former Marine, Shawn, the importance of tone, if you're a drill instructor, were you a Hollywood Marine or are you a Parris Island Marine? I never think we uncovered that yet. Shawn Sease (16:43): I was outside of the runway in San Diego. California, US Marine Corps, Recruit Depot in San Diego. Corey Frank (16:51): Okay. So you talk about the first couple of days establishing tone, Chris, certainly, I don't imagine verbal disfluencies, Henry, worked too well with a drill instructor trying to influence 17, 18-year-olds getting off the bus, putting their feet on the yellow footprints. So how did tone influence you from a perspective of raising the stakes about what you need to know about what you're going to go through for the next 13? Shawn Sease (17:17): Yeah, tone down, I can't even, it's frightening. I mean, it's actually frightening for an 18-year-old to be at bootcamp. It's frightening. Let me tell you this. Tonality is everything and it is just shock the fear into you. It's basically a reset. You just forget everything that you learned somewhere else because when you walk out of here, you're going to have a whole new plan for how you go about doing things. All the way from lining up your belt to shaving, to lining up your, just being completely squared away. But I'll tell you a funny story because you imagine having a name, a last name like Sease on the firing line when you're going to learn to fire your rifle. And I was accused of being so goddamn stupid that I'd start firing when they said, "Cease fire." So yeah, right now I think about it right now, I start shrinking because I remember, "I get it, man. I am not going to fire my rifle. I know what cease means. I get it." But it's just relentless. (18:14): So I know what cease fire means and I know that my trigger should, I mean, this is 30 years ago. I could still hear it like it was yesterday. Trigger finger off the trigger unless firing, it's in me. It's embedded in me. So yeah, tonality can be even more important in the Marine Corps training folks where you're actually trying to basically shock someone and strip them of everything that they've learned so far so that you could be created in the Marine Corps image, like a God mold kind of thing. (18:43): But one thing I wanted to touch on that popped up in my mind when it comes to discovery, and earlier we were talking, I shared with you this phrase that I've been using recently, which is I'm seeing a lot of teams gaining short-term tactical wins, specialization, other tools, things like this. Quick wins, dopamine hits at the expense of long-term strategic failures. So you get these short-term wins by automations, chat, all these, whatever, you'll make it work. If it's ChatGPT, you're going to go do that and go, "Wow, look what I made?" Short-term win, tactical win, long-term strategic failure. And one of the things that I think about when it comes to discovery is that, and again, it's just another real simple phrase is that we either do it together or we don't do it at all. In other words, in discovery for me is that I also have some things that I need to know about you, not like the pains and the problems and how we can help you and things like that. (19:35): But how does your company actually buy something? When was the last time you bought something? Who else do I need to get involved with this? It's the two-way street to build a mutual going forward, and it always seems like it ends up being more of a battle, like a sparring match or something like that. Like I am trying to get these answers, questions from you. Can I convince you that we solve a pain or something like that? And we too quickly get away from that concept of we either do this together or, that's me saying that. We either do this together or we don't do it at all. Which means that in the beginning, let's set some expectations. Here's some of the things I'm after. What are you after? Hey, if I give you a call, will you call me back? All these little tiny things that make all the difference in building relationship with someone and then keeping to your word and then coming back and telling people. (20:22): Let me share with you something at the end of a cold call where we set a meeting. At the very end of it, takes about five or six seconds, "Hey Corey, any reason why you wouldn't make it to this meeting?" "No it's on my calendar. I'm good to go. We're good to go. Shawn, I appreciate that." "Let's just say this, in the off chance that you don't make it, can you and I agree that we'll work to reschedule it right away? That way you won't have to get a restraining order because I'm going to follow up with you." You go, "Yeah, you bet." But I'm going to use that again. I'm going to use that in my language later on when you don't show up or something does happen because, and I'm going to be true to my word and I'm going to remind you, "Hey, we agreed that we'd reschedule this thing. Let's get it done." And setting this expectation around, let's do this together or not at all. (21:02): Or, yeah, I shared with you earlier today, one more thought on my calendar and on my about section in LinkedIn, [inaudible 00:21:07] says, "Hey, let's get together and see what we can, if we like each other well enough to work together, shake something out of the trees. If not, we'll shake hands and go our separate ways." That's my intro call because I want to find out is there something here and let's both work on it together. Those are some of my thoughts. It sets the stage for a long term. Corey Frank (21:24): Just as you went into character there and delivered that message about, "Can we agree to work together and find a way to get this back on the calendar if something does get in the way?" I can imagine, Henry, that your high-stakes world of medical real estate properties, these aren't six-figure opportunities. These are seven, eight-figure deals going on here. So credibility, certainty has to win the day. You're dealing with a very competitive product. You mentioned to me a few years ago, I think. I mean, you're dealing with just what's left. It's not even the alpha of a lot of these deals. And so tone implying, maybe uncertainty, tone implying that maybe you're not the best person for this role. You're a commodity, maybe there's some commission breath, that makes a difference in overall how much it makes. (22:16): So how do you deal with, how do you balance the fact that you try to get that to be authentic, but you also not necessarily have to be the drill instructor here, as we heard from Shawn, but you do have to be in a position of authority to say, "Listen, your money's safe with me. I'm not going to put your money to sleep. I know what I'm doing. I know these properties. I've already done the vetting." How do you balance that in your, especially in your world? Henry Wojdyla (22:39): It's a good question, and I don't know that I have an immediate just pat answer for you. There's no question, tonality is a piece of it. I think asking, I'd say framing the questions correctly is a lot of it. And that framing is a combination in my world of it is tonality. I think it's using certain nomenclature correctly. I think it's also, I will tell you the big thing tonality wise is I would say there's a lot of, there's this phrase, "There's riches in the niches." And we have taken that approach at a high level for the business model. But is it a discovery call? But I think there's a lot of riches in silence and the ability to basically shut up after asking a question and being comfortable with sometimes some very pregnant pauses. Because to your point, Corey, and I know I'm meandering a little bit in answering it, but we're dealing typically with eight figure or more size transactions, the questions that surround those in terms of where does this asset sit in your overall thesis? Where is this from a harvesting and recycling of capital perspective? (23:45): These are big questions. And even for people that are busy trafficking in these type of assets in a day in day out basis. If we're really getting into true discovery and they're really being contemplative about what they're providing you in terms of feedback and answers, they're going to need a few seconds themselves to think about that. So I think this is another example of getting out of the way at almost at a tactical level, which is just being quiet. I think that actually also instills some credibility because you're not trying to fill the gaps. You're not uncomfortable with the silence. I think that in and of itself provides maybe a tactical level benefit, but I think the more strategic benefit is you're hopefully actually getting better quality responses from the prospect. Announcer (24:27): ConnectAndSell, welcome to the end of dialing as you know it. Give your fingers a rest with ConnectAndSell's patented technology. You'll load your best sales folks up with eight to 10 times more live qualified conversations every day. And when we say qualified, we're talking about really qualified, like knowing how many tears they shed while watching the end of Toy Story kind of qualified. Learn more at connectandsell.com. (24:52): Never miss an episode. Go to any of your favorite podcast venues and search for Market Dominance Guys, or go to marketdominanceguys.com and subscribe.  

Many a promising startup has seen their lofty dreams dashed on the rocks due to lacking a bridge to cross that yawning chasm, separating early adopters from pragmatic mainstream buyers. Chris has contended with this treacherous chasm across multiple expeditions. Those early adopters feature prominently in startup lore - enthusiastic pioneers who relish new technology, derive career perks from kick-the-tires experimentation and care little about reputation risk. Yet they differ radically from that mainstream majority awaiting pragmatic proof. Chris invites you to draw on the profound insights of Geoffrey Moore (Crossing the Chasm) to help identify those visionary partners, extract maximum value from your earlyvangelists, and ultimately package your technology into a must-have product. Join Chris for this episode, “Finding Your Beachhead Beyond The Chasm.” Reading list from this episode: Out of Crisis - W. Edwards Deming Theory of Constraints - Eliyahu M. Goldratt Crossing the Chasm - Geoffrey A. Moore   Full episode transcript below: ----more---- (00:23): Today, Chris unpacks one of the toughest challenges for startups, navigating the chasm, separating enthusiastic early adopters from pragmatic mainstream customers. As an admitted disciple of Jeffrey Moore's pioneering work, Chris aims to spare fellow innovators from the common downfalls along the journey to achieving industry dominance. He'll examine how to identify key early evangelists and high value visionary partners to fund the next grueling leg after the chasm. Safely across, he'll share hard-won experience on transforming novel technologies into a must-have solution for pressing business needs. Charting this course carefully can turn scrappy upstarts into mighty market rulers. Chris offers guideposts so more pioneers can find safe passage from fledgling startup to titan. Join us for this episode, finding Your Beachhead Beyond the Chasm. Chris Beall (01:23): Hey everybody. Chris Beall here with Market Dominance Guys podcast. And hey, Corey's not available right now, and I thought I'd just put something in the can here and see whether anybody's interested in what I have on my mind today. So today I thought I'd talk about something really important that you can just go out and get a book and read what it's all about and figure it out, but maybe you want to think through some of the things that are unappealing about it that will make you not want to do the right thing when it's time to do the right thing. So this is for folks who come up with new technologies, with new solutions. So if all you do is you sell old stuff, probably isn't particularly relevant to you. But if you're selling a new technology, if you've invented something, or even if you've just come up with a twist on something and you think it's really valuable, important, could make a difference in the marketplace, could solve some real problems, you have a real problem. (02:19): And your real problem is that people are generally repulsed by new technologies. In fact, in general, people are repulsed by just plain old new stuff. Once it's been established and other people are doing it, they're buying it, they're using it, they're getting good value from it, yeah, then it's all pretty easy. But that's a big barrier to get through is that psychological aversion that people have to doing something new or trying something new, especially if it involves parting with something that they already have that would normally be money and always time, and then you could throw in risk to their reputation and well, it only gets worse. So now you've got something new, you're a member of the innovation economy, you want to come out with something, and I'm going to assume it's B2B. Why? Because I don't know anything about B2C. (03:08): I think I've mentioned this before. I'm clueless as a consumer and as a result, I don't think that I'm qualified to say anything about businesses that sell to consumers. I divide my Shark Tank episodes into two kinds. The ones where they're talking B2B, which is almost none of them, and the ones where they're selling to consumers where I can sit back and relax and think, "I don't know anything about this. These sharks seem to, but I don't." But B2B, I've been doing that a long time and I'm a disciple of Jeffrey Moore. The book in question is Crossing the Chasm. There's another book called The Gorilla Game if you want to get into the fantasy of actually doing what we suggest here on Market Dominance Guys, which is dominating markets. So The Gorilla Game's all about dominating tech markets with a product, not with a service. (03:57): If you want to dominate with a service, you become a king or a queen of that particular market, but you can't be a gorilla. And Jeff explains this in great detail in both of those books. They are wonderful reads. I must have read Crossing the Chasm now five or six times. If you really want to get everything you need to know, you could consider Crossing the Chasm as a starting point. You could consider Deming's Into the Crisis, so if you can read the crunchiness of it, he is a pretty grumpy guy when he wrote that book, but I would've been too. And then of course, all of the Theory of Constraints books, Eli Goldratt and everything, he tried to teach us about how systems essentially have one constraint and we should pay attention to it. Well, that actually goes together here with Crossing the Chasm. (04:44): And the reason is the constraint in the innovation economy tends to be just above the top of the funnel in the repeatable part of your business. This is the part that is across the chasm, not the part that is before the chasm. Let me see if I can explain this. So I would draw a picture here, but it's a podcast, so I have to draw the picture with words. So imagine you have a typical sort of normal distribution, a normal curve. You've seen them all before a bell-shaped curves, they're called. So it's got a left side and a right side and a middle. They kind of get steep for a while and then it kind of levels off the top and goes down. So most folks think, "Hey, this is how markets adopt. They start with a few people at the beginning. Those people get some good out of whatever it is. Maybe they talk it up. Maybe you get to refine your product a little bit and you go smoothly from having hardly any customers to having a little more, a little more. You establish yourself." (05:41): And then eventually you get past that midpoint in the hump and you're in what's called the late majority, and then you're in among the laggards. That's actually a great place to be. It's hard to be displaced there, but you are going to where there are fewer and fewer customers over time. So you might have to come up with something new. Eventually, we all have to come up with something new. So the number one thing to know about that curve, that simple, smooth curve, is that it's a lie. And by a lie, I mean it's a curve that has a hole in it, it has a gap where you get to a certain point climbing up the side where you're getting more customers and more revenue in particular, and suddenly it all goes away. (06:21): It goes to zero and it goes to zero for a while. And in fact, if you don't do anything about it, it goes to zero for a while. That's long enough that now you're out of business. So the chasm is the part of the curve that for very repeatable, predictable reasons, has just got no buyers in it. And since it has no buyers, it has no revenue. And if you keep trying to sell in the chasm, so to speak, where there's no buyers, you will run out of money because your overhead, which we've discussed before, is like a racehorse. It will eat while you sleep, it will eat up your entire company, and you'll try more and more crazy and desperate things to get those non-existent buyers to buy your product. And this is referred to my world as thrash, and you will thrash yourself to death trying to sell to folks who just aren't there. (07:17): Now, why are they not there? Well, it's because the folks who buy early who are divided into two distinctly different groups that must not be mistaken for each other are radically different from the ones who buy just a little bit later. So when you have a new technology, there are always folks that are interested in it. They're called technology enthusiasts. They love new stuff. They love it because A, it fits their personalities and their background. They know something about everything. B, they like messing around with stuff to see if they can make it work or break it. And C, they derive their own career and political power from being the sacrificial lambs out there trying things out that may or may not work and generally don't. So they have a special feature. Their reputations cannot be harmed by checking your stuff out your new thing. So they will check your new thing out. (08:12): This produces a false signal to you if you're not careful that says, "Oh, folks are interested in my new invention, my new product, my innovation." Now there are folks interested just for a funny reason, they're interested in trying it out, learning about it, kicking the tires, breaking it, tearing it apart, hooking it up to other stuff to see if it breaks that, and then they're going to move on. So are they good, bad, or indifferent? Well, they're really important. So you've got to engage with them and you got to engage with them early and you got to make them pay a little bit, otherwise they're not going to take it seriously. And then you have to pay attention to what they have to say. They're actually providing you with free advice, free consulting, in fact paid, and they'll pay you to tell you about your product and they'll actually try to use it. (09:05): So you have to kind of overpay attention to them, but also let them mess around and they'll give you insights and you need to use those insights intelligently in order to improve your technology, which at this point you will probably think is a product, and it's not a product yet. It's a product when it's in the hands of somebody who uses it for pretty much what somebody just like them has already used it for, it's useful for some job, it does a job. At this point, the job to be done is kind of amusing the tech enthusiast and letting them learn what's out there, what works and what doesn't. So you've got to sell to them. You got to sell to them right away. You need a certain kind of salesperson. Generally it's the person who innovated the product or somebody on that team. So feel free to do that. (09:59): Go sell to them. It's great. You'll have a little bit of growing revenue. Don't make the mistake of building out your revenue plan for the next 2, 3, 4, 5 years based on the growth in the tech enthusiast market. That market burns up quite quickly. And if you find yourself going from one to another to another company trying to find the tech enthusiast, you're selling to a market that has no future, and that's a mistake. So as long as you've got a few, it's moving fast, you're getting great feedback, stick with them. But meanwhile, you've got to look for your other kind of pre-chasm customer, and that is somebody called a visionary customer. And a visionary customer, it's a funny name actually, I've never quite liked this name. It's a customer who has a vision of how your technology, not your product, but your technology can confer upon them competitive advantage. (10:59): And why is that a vision? Well, they're having a vision of changing the competitive landscape or the strategic landscape in their business, in their market where they play. So it might be something that fills a gap for them that's just showed up in the world because now everybody has it. Today that gap would be generative AI. This is why generative AI is generating such a big buzz in the world and such high valuations for so many companies is not that the tech enthusiasts will pick it up. They will, which is fine, but that it provides new potential weaponry for somebody in a specific industry who if they could just figure out how to use gen AI with the rest of what they're doing, they could change the strategic landscape. That is they could get in a superior competitive position. The internet was like this once there was a point in the life of the internet when every internet company had a valuation that was based on the fact that lots of these visionaries, these customers that were going to seek competitive advantage, we're going to need help. (12:06): And so if you could help them either with a product or a service that leveraged the internet all to the good, so you're seeing that very same thing with generative AI. We've seen it before with e-commerce. We see it all the time in what I call hard engineering with advances in material science. You see it with battery technology. This is done all the time where something new shows up and the reason it goes hype crazy is actually a pre-chasm reason. It's not the tech enthusiasts who will fool around with it. They'll do things like I'm a better one when it comes to generative AI. We wrote a book using ChatGPT about market dominance, but it was really just to experience what is it like to use ChatGPT to write a book. So I made sure to keep it short time-wise, 6:30 in the morning on a Saturday until 11 o'clock on Sunday, the book had to be written from scratch or at least from transcripts out of this podcast and published on Amazon in three formats using ChatGPT to tell me how to do that. (13:06): Okay, so that was tech-enthusiast stuff. That doesn't really drive that early hype in a new material or new crazy thing that you can do like, well, ChatGPT. What does is the fact that there are always lots and lots of companies out there in competitive positions where vis-a-vis their big competitor, they think they could make a difference if they were first to adopt and use something new as a weapon. So with your visionary customer, you're selling to their vision of dominance or maybe their vision of escaping the dominance of somebody else. If they're number two in a market, they got to be trying to figure out something. So I have an example from a long time ago where the folks at W. W. Grainger, big catalog company with MRO products recognized, "Hey, this internet thing means that our book, our catalog book no longer needs to contain only say 90,000 products. It could contain hundreds of thousands, but how are we going to organize them in a way that we can manage them and by the way, help people find them, which is the claim to fame in our red book?" (14:15): So they were willing to do some very strong financial shifts in order to get ahold of some technology, in this case, it was catalog technology. I happened to be the guy selling it and they could do some big things. They thought if they could get the data together about all these products and then organize it in a way that people could find it and buy it, but also keep it up to date because that's a big problem when you're publishing a book, you do it in annual cycle, but the internet says you have to do it all the time. So we ended up doing a pretty big deal with them at a company I was with called Requisite Technology is a pretty big deal. (14:52): It ended up being probably out of the box 14, $15 million at a time when we had essentially maybe, I don't know, a million dollars of revenue. So should you do business with these visionaries? Absolutely. How many? A good number is one, that's a pretty good number in that you focus on really helping them achieve their competitive goals, and you do it at a reasonably great sacrifice to yourself of some of your resources. So you put together a deal that's got elements in it alike, believe it or not, source code, which no one likes to sell, but hey, if somebody needs competitive advantage, they need proprietary control. So one, make sure this isn't somebody who's actually representative of your future market. This is a smart one-off, and you're going to do a deal that makes a lot of money, which you need unless you like going to venture capitalists and taking their money and having them sort of run your company for you one way or another. (15:50): So you need a lot of money in order to cross the chasm. So how do you load up on it? Well, you do a visionary deal with somebody in which they get proprietary control within a specific domain of how it is that you do things. I'll call this your source code. It could be your secret formula, but it's something along those lines. They also need intellectual property, so you need to cross-license or license patents to them if you have them and know-how, they need help, so you're going to have to provide them with your best engineers. At what price? About one and a half times market because they're going to get very, very special value out of your very, very special people. How long? Probably a year, year and a half. That's normally long enough to execute on one of these sort of visionary plays. (16:40): And then what about exclusivity? Yeah, you got to offer that too if you want to make this work because you're offering a competitive advantage so you can't turn around and offer it to their competitor the next day. So let them name some competitors and have a period of time and a field of use and put that in the contract that you won't sell this deal to those named competitors for this period of time within that field of use. And that way you've provided all of the elements for a competitive advantage for that visionary. And assuming that they're big enough and this is a strong enough play for them, they will pay you a lot. How much is a lot? 10, 20, $30 million is possible on deals like this. (17:21): I know that sounds somewhat fantastical with the new technology, but especially if things are hot and you have information that's special, that's distinct, that's rare about how to make some new technology work in a particular industry and you think that somebody could really do well if they had control over it and you don't think they represent your future mass market, then go ahead and do one of these. Speaker 1 (17:46): We'll be back in a moment after a quick break. ConnectAndSell, welcome to the end of dialing as you know it. ConnectAndSell's patented technology loads your best sales folks up with eight to 10 times more live qualified conversations every day. And when we say qualified, we're talking about really qualified like knowing what kind of cheese they like on their impossible whopper kind of qualified. Learn more at connectandsell.com. And we're back. Chris Beall (18:25): These deals generally take about six weeks to do. You need to make it clear that your board of directors has told you to do a deal like this with one of three or four identified players, all of whom are competitors in that industry. You're going to do one deal and the phrase that you use is that everything's on the table. They will respond very positively if in fact this is something that appears to be of competitive advantage and otherwise they'll leave you cold. So it's a really easy qualifier. You won't get a lot of tire kickers on this one. So you do that deal and now you have to split your company in two. So one part pays a great deal of attention to your new visionary customer, really a partner at this point. And another part takes the feedback about your technology and thinks, "Hmm, where could we go in order to establish our technology packaged appropriately to do a job as a product?" (19:23): And that where we can go is across the chasm. The beauty now is that you have hopefully enough money to cross the chasm because as I said before, there is no revenue down there in the chasm. It's very, very dry. There's the bones of companies that have crossed or tried to cross the chasm and didn't make it. You're going to have to walk by them and you're going to shudder a little bit, but you got to realize, "Hey, over on the other side is the magic of the early market." It's the early market post chasm or early majority, and you're looking for somebody with a broken mission-critical business problem that you're pretty sure that your product along with whatever services are need to make it work, this is called a whole product, and it's all put together can actually solve that broken mission-critical business problem. (20:16): Now, everybody has these. They're all over the place. I mean, we'll never run out of broken mission-critical business problems. They sort of like rabbits, right? Every time something happens in the world that's new or different or somebody buys somebody or something is being obsoleted out or whatever, something's broken, it could be an internal problem that they have. It could be a problem with their go-to-market. It could be a problem in their supply chain. It could be a problem in their financial supply chain. It could be a problem with people. Who knows? You know because you know what your technology can do, but you're going to have to package it up as sort of a paper product that claims to solve this problem. Then you need to go to talk to folks who you think have this problem. And with some of them it will resonate and they'll say, "I actually have this problem." (21:07): Now you have an interesting problem. So your product isn't quite perfectly ready for prime time, so you need to take the minimum version of it and you need to round it out with services, make it a whole product, and then sell it to somebody. For how much? Well, you're actually going to price it down, and this is very counterintuitive to a lot of people. You're going to price it down because you're essentially buying the first customer's willingness to work with you because they're working for you and they are going to point out everything about your product that doesn't actually solve their problem. So you were able to describe the solution, but you weren't able to actually implement it quite perfectly. It's really hard to get everything right in a product and they're going to teach you, but by the time you're done, you'll actually have a product that is probably sellable to the number two person, and more importantly, you will have a reference. (22:04): And across the chasm, we tend to sell by reference. That's why it works. That is the slightly more cautious person will buy what the slightly more desperate person bought if it worked for them. And everybody knows who that is. Everybody knows who the lead dog is. So now you go from one to another to another. You get your product more complete, you get your references more robust, and eventually word of mouth starts to take over. And at that point, your market is probably pretty small. You want it to be pretty small. The edge of your market is everybody who will talk about it and refer somebody else to it as a solution to their broken mission-critical business problem. And so, hey, you just keep going until that market starts to run out. But well before that, you identify an adjacent market that is similar enough in terms of the broken mission-critical business process that you can solve, but different enough, maybe a different role. (23:07): So for instance, say you solve a problem in sales, you might want to go talk to customer success or say you're verticalized within banking, you might want to go talk to folks in insurance. You'll know how to do this. You just have to decide when to do it, otherwise you'll sort of plunge into a chasm of your own making. And after that, it is reasonably straightforward. Now you're into, I'll call it standard issue market dominance, like we talk about all the time on this show. That is you make a list, you call the list, you talk to people, you build trust, you recognize that only 1/12 of your market's in market in any given point because they've already solved the problem too recently using something else and you have to wait till the replacement cycle for their solution kind of plays out. And now you go and you dominate that market. (23:57): But if you don't get into the market, you don't get to dominate it. So while you can employ brute force techniques like we recommend at Market Dominance Guys, make a list, call the list, talk to people, build trust, have meetings. Also have folks come to your website because you talk to them, have them answer emails because you talk to them, have them connect to you socially because you ask them to and you just talk to them. All that good stuff you get to do, but you want to do that on across the chasm side primarily, and you'll feel it. It gets easier and easier and easier if you're across the chasm. If you're not, it just kind of stays the same. You can actually build very large pre-chasm companies. They sell weapons, not tools, but you've got to play the game a little bit differently. (24:46): You're actually doing an endless series of these sort of little visionary deals. They're little ones. They're not as big because you can't extract the big money for competitive advantage from folks that are competing with each other. It sounds like you could, and some have figured out how to do it. I mean, Google does this with Google Ads. They'll sell you the ad words or they'll help you with them, and then six months later, your number one competitor gets powered up by Google to compete with you with better or more powerful ad words that somehow yours have gone a little weak and back and forth it goes. It's very rare. If you do one of those, more power to you. You can own jet airplanes of your own and do all manner of things and have silly names for your products, and it'll all work out really great. (25:30): But if you're more of a standard issue, "Hey, I've got a new product or a new idea for a product with magic technology and I am hoping to take it to market," just remember you need to divide your market into two big pieces, pre-chasm and post chasm. Then you need to divide the pre-chasm into two pieces, tech enthusiasm, visionaries, then you got to make a very uncomfortable deal with one of the visionaries that's sufficient to fund your chasm crossing and you just saved your company from a whole round of financing by doing that, and you're still in control. (26:03): Then you need to make that list. But you've got to know that you solve a broken mission-critical business process before you make the list. Then you make the list and you get on something like ConnectAndSell, or you work with people like at Branch 49 or whatever, and you talk to people in order to get more and more folks to pay attention to the fact that, "Hey, there's a solution to this thing. And by the way, a bunch of people just like you have already bought that solution and they're quite happy with it." (26:33): So that's the end of this little episode. A little lesson. I feel like I've given it before on market dominance guys, but maybe not quite so straightforward away, and I thought even if I have, well, you know what they say, repetition is the mother of learning. So we just repeated it. And good luck to all of you mothers and fathers and others out there who are trying to take new stuff to market in the innovation economy. You're much needed.  

Alex McNaughten continues his visit with Chris to share psychological insights that challenge traditional sales training. As an AI entrepreneur, Alex emphasizes confidence should be the priority when onboarding salespeople, not technique. He advocates first building enough confidence just to "pick up the phone” and draws parallels between sales and coaching - both guide people through "the emotional journey to consider something new." Alex tells his story about overcoming fear in sales and boxing, noting most training overlooks the emotional side. He concludes that "so much sales training, particularly cold calling, is wrong or missing" these emotional components. Alex’s perspective as an AI builder brings a unique view on honing the emotional skills crucial for sales success. He advocates pushing sales leaders to transform training to address confidence and psychology first. Join them for this episode, “Confidence Beats Technique in Sales Training.” Links from this episode: Grw.ai Branch49 ConnectAndSell Alex McNaughten on LinkedIn Corey Frank on LinkedIn Chris Beall on LinkedIn   Full episode transcript below: ----more---- (00:21): Alex McNaughten continues his visit with Chris to share psychological insights that challenge traditional sales training. As an AI entrepreneur, Alex emphasizes confidence should be the priority when onboarding salespeople, not technique. (00:36): He advocates first building enough confidence just to pick up the phone, and draws parallels between sales and coaching. Both guide people through the emotional journey to consider something new. Alex tells his story about overcoming fear in sales and boxing, noting most training overlooks the emotional side. (00:55): He concludes that so much sales training, particularly cold calling, is wrong or missing these emotional components. Alex's perspective as an AI builder brings a unique view on honing the emotional skills crucial for sales success. He advocates pushing sales leaders to transform training to address confidence and psychology first. Join him and Chris for this episode, Confidence Beats Technique in Sales Training. Chris Beall (01:26): Yeah, so I think a CS team would be very interesting. And he loves trying new stuff. He's kind of like Corey in that regard, and I think CS might be as big a play as sales for Taylor. (01:39): In fact, I mean CS is the game in the world of SaaS. CAC is like, well, okay, great. But are you going to hold them, right? I know when somebody looks at a company, they don't start out asking, what's your effectiveness at acquiring customers? They ask, what's your net retention rate? Alex McNaughten (01:57): I think CS becomes more important in a tougher environment because it's much easier to sell more to your existing customers, and upsell them, rather than trying to bring on new ones for a lot of companies right now. (02:10): Thanks for teeing up this podcast, that was fun. 30 minutes goes quickly when you're just talking. It goes so fast. You think 30 minutes is a long time., It's really not. It flies past. Chris Beall (02:20): It is quick. Alex McNaughten (02:24): It's good, though. Because... Chris Beall (02:25): By the way. Yeah, I think that it's really interesting. We sometimes do these and we'll go an hour and a half, or something like that. And it's really interesting where the conversations end up going. We almost never go where we think we're going to go, which is great. So we don't think very hard about it, but they go by fast. They really do. Alex McNaughten (02:42): Yeah, that's the best part about it. It's often when a conversation just naturally flows. Chris, I just want to say a massive thank you for your support. You said some really lovely things about what we're doing, and I get the sense that you genuinely believe and are excited by what we're building. Which is really cool, and it's the early supporters that I think really make a company. It's those folks who kind of get it before 90% of the world gets it. I really appreciate it, and thank you. Let's keep going on the journey together. We're going to build something big. Chris Beall (03:13): I feel very fortunate that we got to talk in the first place. Just watching the demo, most demos don't do much for me because they're about buttons. And buttons aren't very interesting. Push this button, this thing happens. And they're generally about feeding the monster or making pretty pictures, neither one of which is interesting to me. You feed the CRM system or whatever all day long, and then you ask it for pretty pictures, and then you pretend the pretty pictures are going to change your life and they don't. That's kind of the history of enterprise software kind of in a nutshell. (03:45): We do something at ConnectAndSell that actually does something. It's a doing thing, it's not a looking and thinking and whatever thing. And what I was drawn to in the simple demo was the emotional content. (04:01): And my view of sales is pretty simple, which is we're facilitators of an emotional journey. Alex McNaughten (04:07): Yep. Chris Beall (04:07): That someone else needs to go on in order to be comfortable enough that they can consider the possibility of something new. And that's what we do in sales. And I don't know why not everybody gets it. It's like Anthony Iannarino gets it. You read Elite Sales Strategies, that's what it's about. The Jolt Effect guys, they get it. It's all producing the reality and the perception of risk on the part of the other person, the potential buyer, so they can move forward. You're actually an enabler of something that can't be done without your help. (04:43): I used to teach people how to rock climb. And to be a modern rock climber, even in the gym, the number one thing you have to learn how to do is trust the rope. And experienced climbers can't go back in time, back to when they didn't trust the rope. So they start in the wrong place. They start with technique. (05:05): And they start by saying, do this, do that. Try this, try that. But the thing you need to do, and I think this is identical to what we do in sales, is you need to help that person who is properly naturally afraid of falling. It's not incorrect to be afraid of falling. (05:23): I can tell you from experience, I once took a little fall on a mountain of about 800 feet. The chances of walking away from them are pretty close to zero. It was not something I would ask somebody else to give a try to. Why don't you go jump on that chunk of tilted ice and see what happens when you go head-first into the rocks at 70 miles an hour? (05:44): And so I knew as a young rock climber that the fear of falling is a good thing, not a bad thing. But when I taught people, I would just teach first to trust the rope. And the way I'd do it is this, go up one foot, step off. (06:00): It's kind of silly, right? Well, I wouldn't have gotten hurt without the rope. Yeah, well, you're going to learn to trust the rope. We do that until it's boring. Then go up two feet, step off, go up three feet and step off. Alex McNaughten (06:09): That's interesting. Chris Beall (06:10): When you're so bored with that, then you're ready to have your mind open to what's the most effective way to rest? So let's go up to that three-foot level, and let's try different ways of resting. Because the other thing you're going to be afraid of is running out of gas. Because you're going to run out of gas when you're climbing. That's the first thing that happens. Speaker 1 (06:33): We'll be back in a moment after a quick break. (06:35): Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it's time to really go big, you need to use an uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ successful sequencing that is fresh enough to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. (06:54): From crafting just the right cold call screenplays, to curating and mapping the ideal call list for your entire tam, Branch 49's modern and innovative sales toolbox offers a guiding hand to ambitious organizations in their quest to reach market dominance. Learn more at branchfortynine.com. (07:20): And we're back. Alex McNaughten (07:22): It makes you rethink learning journeys. My experience with boxing is quite similar. Is that I wish more time had been spent upfront on overcoming the natural fear of being punched in the face. Because it's very jarring, because you start with all the technique, and the punches, and the movement. And then you move to that, and you suddenly sparring. But your natural instinct is to shut your eyes when you see a punch coming at you. Of course it is. (07:53): But I wish that, when I was younger, someone had spent time with me on that fear, because it would've made everything a lot easier later on. And I think most learning journeys are like that, and I think we leave the emotional side out of it. Chris Beall (08:08): And in sales it's all we're doing. We're helping somebody overcome their correct natural fear of trying something. Alex McNaughten (08:21): Well, so is coaching. Chris Beall (08:22): We treat it like it's not correct, but it is correct. They should be afraid. They should be concerned. Alex McNaughten (08:27): But that's exactly the same as coaching. I think your description of sales as the emotional journey to help someone consider the possibility of something new, I think replace the word sales with coaching, and it's exactly the same. (08:40): And I think that's where most people go wrong, is they focus far too much effort and attention on knowledge, and product features if they're teaching someone something, and they actually forget that, especially when you bring a new person into a sales role, probably the number one thing you want to focus on is actually just their confidence. It is arguably the first thing you want to do, is just get them confident enough to pick up the phone in the first place. (09:09): And then you can worry about the specifics of technique and product features, et cetera, and that builds over time. But yeah, anyway, that's given me a thought. That's kind of got my mind racing actually, in terms of conversational design. But that's going to take me somewhere. Chris Beall (09:28): By the way, do you know about how we do our flight schools? It's so unusual. We do exactly what you said. So we run a thing called flight school, and flight school takes reps who are hesitant, uncertain. Maybe they think they're pretty good, maybe not. But it's about cold-calling. (09:46): We deal first with the issues around fear by making it clear at the very beginning, most of the fear is actually on the other side. You're the scary thing. The reason that you're afraid of cold calling is you're afraid of being scary. You're afraid of being thrown out of the village. You have a deep, primal fear of being exiled. (10:09): And so there's no place in the environment of evolution where we would interrupt a stranger, because there were no strangers. We have no mental, emotional machinery that prepares us to be the bad thing. Which is, in this case, the invisible stranger interrupting somebody. (10:28): And the way we overcome that is first we accept that's who we are. Second, we accept that experts have actually figured out a way to turn that fear the other person has into trust, and to do it a hundred percent of the time using the same approach. So that now your journey is not about your product or anything, it's just about, can I say something in seven seconds in such a way that causes a stranger that I've just frightened to trust me? (11:01): That's a much more interesting job then, go sell a product, or go set a meeting. And it's really fun to learn how to do it. I teach people how to do a dumb thing with the cork, hold it sideways, wine cork, bounce it and have it stand up. They're not aware it can be done. Once they see it done, it becomes interesting, right? It's a dumb little thing. But it's a thing that, when you see it, you go, ooh, that can be done. (11:25): And when you see this, seven seconds happen repeatedly ... So we coach for two-and-a-half hours with full conversations, by the way. But we only coach it for seven seconds. We let them fall on the rope over, and over, and over until they get confident in the rope. Which is, the rope is, I can get somebody from their fear to trusting me in seven seconds a hundred percent of the time. (11:51): At which point the rest of this is now just, can I get them curious about taking a meeting? There's not much left. Alex McNaughten (11:58): So interesting, right? We talked about this last time and you just described it. Again, it just makes me think that so much of sales training, particularly the cold-calling phase, is wrong. Or just missing a key part of the equation. But this has been great. Thank you.  

The guys are tackling the big question on every sales manager's mind: Could AI replace me? With wisdom and reassurance, Corey and Chris explore the power of Taylor, an AI sales coach created by grw.ai CEO Alex McNaughten. Taylor provides a judgment-free space for reps to vent frustrations and surface red flags managers miss. As Chris explains, Taylor's conversational skills elicit "confessions" from reps. And for managers worried an AI could do their job better, Alex gently says: "The goal here is to make leaders better...not replace them." So breathe easy sales managers, and get ready to be 10-50X more effective. With the power of AI augmentation Sales Managers will be unstoppable. Join us for this episode, AI Coaching Conversations Elicit Unfiltered Rep Feedback. About Our Guest: Alex McNaughten - CEO/Founder - Grw.ai With a background in B2B sales for both Kiwi startups and US tech giants, Alex is passionate about increasing the level of professionalism & performance in B2B selling globally. Prior to Apprento, through his advisory firm, he trained hundreds of founders, executives and sales professionals and worked across over 130+ ANZ businesses from pre-revenue startups like SafeStack Academy, to growth companies like Rocos to large multinationals like Vodafone, helping them to reduce their sales costs, speed sales cycles, maximize win rates, build out teams, expand into new markets and ultimately generate $10s of millions in new revenues. Links from this episode: Grw.ai Branch49 ConnectAndSell Alex McNaughten on LinkedIn Corey Frank on LinkedIn Chris Beall on LinkedIn   Full episode transcript below: ----more---- (00:23): The Market Dominance Guys are tackling the big question on every sales manager's mind. Could AI replace me? With wisdom and reassurance, Corey and Chris explore the power of Taylor, an AI sales coach created by grw.ai, that's G-R-W-A-I, CEO Alex McNaughten. Taylor provides a judgment-free space for reps to vent frustrations and surface red flags managers miss. (00:47): As Chris explains, Taylor's conversational skills elicit confessions from reps. And for managers worried an AI could do their job better, Alex gently says, the goal here is to make leaders better, not replace them. So breathe easy sales managers, and get ready to be 10 to 50 times more effective. With the power of AI augmentation, sales managers will be unstoppable. Join us for this episode, AI Coaching Conversations Elicit Unfiltered Rep Feedback. Corey Frank (01:22): And here we are once again. Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys. It's episode 200 and something. We'll just say 200X episode of the Market Dominance Guys. As always, we have the sage of sales, the prophet of profit, and the Hawking of hawking. Chris Beall to my left or right, depended on where in the audience you are sitting right now. And we also have a guest. So Alex McNaughton, fresh over the pond. Do you call the Pacific the pond, or the Atlantic is the pond. I don't know what the Pacific is. But anyway, he's somewhere in the land of the Hobbits in New Zealand. I don't know if you were in Auckland, but welcome to Alex McNaughton, the CEO of Grw.ai, and he's going to talk to me and Chris about his company and some of the changes and trends that he's been seeing. So first off, good afternoon, Chris. Good afternoon, Alex. Chris, how you been? Chris Beall (02:15): I'm been good. I'm down here south of you right now, in southern Arizona. Not as far south as Alex. He's so far southeast, he's an antipodal upside-down kind of guy. I'm looking to see the blood rushing to his head anytime soon. Alex McNaughten (02:28): About as south as you can be in the world. Chris Beall (02:30): Yeah, yeah. And still have a nice climate. That's what's kind of weird. How you guys get away with that in New Zealand is entirely beyond me. As you know, Corey, my sister Theresa once executed the most brilliant business I've ever seen. She flew to New Zealand to the South island. She bought a horse, a retired racehorse, and tacked to go with it. Rode it around for three months. A product of that was a trail horse. Trail horses are worth a great deal on the South Island. She sold said trail horse for enough to pay for the entire trip and then went up, spent two months on the North Island, hitchhiking around among friendly people. I still think if you want to see bootstrapped, she was wearing boots. Alex McNaughten (03:15): That's awesome. Corey Frank (03:17): So Alex, tell us a little bit about Grw.ai and what kind of rundown [inaudible 00:03:23] did you stumble into meet a guy like Chris, besides LinkedIn, of course. Alex McNaughten (03:27): Well firstly, guys, thanks to have me on the podcast. It's good to be here. How did I meet Chris? I think this was a podcast introductory conversation or just a LinkedIn conversation, that I've been running a podcast for a few years and it's brought me to some interesting places and brought me to some very interesting people. (03:49): And in terms of Grw.ai, we are very early days. We're four months into this journey. I've got two very, very smart co-founders, Alistair and Dan. Alistair's a machine learning Masters from Cambridge University, and Dan is a full-stack engineer and data scientist by trade. And we are building a performance management platform for sales teams actually focused on performance. And really this came about because I've worked with about 150, give or take, B2B SaaS companies predominantly over the last four years. I accidentally built a go-to-market advisory and then I built a sales training and recruitment company down here in New Zealand. And we noticed that they were all using, I guess what you'd consider traditional HR performance management platforms, but they weren't aligned to performance, had nothing to do with what was being measured and actually weren't very helpful for sales teams specifically. (04:40): So we started building Grw to give leaders and managers better insight into their teams, help them manage more people, and really just help them be better leaders. And then the final thing I'll say on that, for now anyway, and you might have some questions, is we also noticed 95% of sales leaders have had no sales leadership training, so they're really struggling and I'm really passionate about this. Sales is, we're the people who bring the business and keep the lights on. And when you've got 95% of the people leading those teams who haven't been supported in the best possible way, that's a recipe for disaster. Corey Frank (05:15): Chris, we've spoken about this several times. Particularly I think, Alex, I know you're a fan of something that's near and dear to our hearts here at the Market Dominance Guys is particularly after the top of funnel, the discovery process. And Chris has some interesting things to say about where a lot of folks are focusing on top of funnel, which is a good place to start. But it's also, Chris, you talk a little bit, much more elegantly than I about the discovery and how critical it is to be trained there, to have feedback there, to have visibility there. So Chris, and I know you've taken a look a little bit about Alex's platform, but first off, for the audience and for Alex to level set, your opinions on the discovery and where some of the needs are there that perhaps Alex is addressing with Grw. Chris Beall (05:57): Yeah, I think that one of the goals of any sales organization should be to shove the bottleneck of the entire company down into discovery. It tends to sit just above the top of the funnel. So we kind of built this whole podcast around the notion of, hey, you can beat everybody if you can solve that one problem because now you actually have got increased flow and improved targeting and the ability to go out and characterize markets and expand where it makes sense to expand and withdraw of where it makes no sense to go. (06:26): We have some episodes about discovery, and we call it the confessional. So the idea of discovery is to have the other person get in an emotional state where they will confess to you what's really going on with them. And if that happens, then you immediately get an increase in flow rate through discovery and an increase in quality, and probably a decrease in cycle time. So when we're looking at systems, we care about those three things a great deal, throughput, quality and cycle time, and we address all of them by making discovery into a proper confessional where somebody is comfortable confessing. (07:05): What Alex and his team have done, which is fascinating to me, is they've made the sales manager, sales rep one-on-one into something that, by taking the sales manager out of it, this is really quite interesting and ironic to me. By taking the sales manager out of the first level discussions about deals, which is what reps tend to focus on, they actually have come up with a way of eliciting a confession from the rep. And it's not just a confession about how they're doing in the deal. I mean you can do deals well or poorly or whatever all day long, but as we can still call her the fetching Ms. Fenucci, even though she's now the Chief Revenue Officer of Mediafly and kind of too professional to be the fetching, but well, sorry Helen, we're just going to fetch you up just a little bit. She reminded me this morning when I got her coffee. She said, "You're the one who's doing the fetching." I said, "Yes, I fetch you and I pour." (08:01): But it's interesting, when I was observing Alex demoing to me, it reminded me of a very old program, not in how it's built, it's very, the freshest generative AI, super smart, getting smarter about the conversation, but the conversation has a great deal of lightness for the rep. (08:19): The very first word my eyes fell on when Alex was demoing to me was the word frustration. The rep was frustrated at how a deal was going, right? Well, that's not actually a deal term. You being frustrated about a deal is not part of the deal. This is your problem, not his problem. But the love your team approach says, no, your problem is your manager's problem. And your emotional problems, your life problems, your direction that you want to go, your ambitions, how you feel you're being supported, who's taken the notes. Remember when Helen told us once she took notes when her people would be presenting internally to the big bosses so they could focus. Even though she is the boss, she's taking notes, a little servant leadership there. All that stuff comes together. (09:06): I believe Grw.ai has come up with something really interesting. It's a way to get information compressed at about a 30 to one ratio into the brain of the sales manager by being able to get the extract from the interaction between the sales rep and the bot in question, which I'll let Alex talk about. But then there's another thing that happens, which is there's a softness about that relationship because the rep doesn't fear the bot. And so the rep starts telling their emotional truth to the bot. And there was a program called Eliza written many, many years ago that is a Rogerian non-directive therapist written in a hundred lines of code or something like that. And everybody I know who used it, and I had hundreds of people use it because I was so interested in it, ended up confessing to it. And that was a hundred lines of code. (10:01): So there's some hidden magic in interacting with a bot that it feels enough like a human, but isn't your boss. That you can actually relax and tell it the truth. And you know me in the Lonely Minds Club, right? CEOs live in the Lonely Minds Club because everybody lies to us. Well, sales managers, everybody lies to them too. So they're not well-trained and everybody lies to them. It's a tough combo. I don't know. What do you think about that, Alex? Alex McNaughten (10:29): Yeah, so just to give a touch more context, as part of our platform we've built Taylor, and Taylor is an AI powered performance coach specific for sales teams. And the sales teams have one-on-one conversations with Taylor on a regular basis with our early design partners, that's every two weeks. (10:47): And the behaviors we've noticed from the team is super interesting. We've seen people spend up to 45 minutes talking to Taylor. On average it's about 20, but we've seen up to 45 minutes in a single session. And there's an unbelievable amount of rich data that come out of those conversations. You imagine you're a sales manager with a team of 10, the reality is you don't have the time to do one-on-one across the team and get to that level of detail all the time. (11:14): So I think, Chris, your description of how it compresses information for the sales leader 30 to one, that's probably fairly accurate. We haven't measured the exact compression, but in terms of time compression, it probably is something like that. (11:26): And the other things we've noticed that's really interesting is even though the sales team know that their leader, and even their leader of leaders, will see insights from these conversations, they're extremely honest, if not more honest than they would be with a real human. So yeah, it's super exciting and I'm pumped because what we're able to do now is stuff that typically I would be doing as a person going into organizations to help them. Technology is allowing us to scale that, but do it better because the great thing about Taylor AI powered coach is memory across all conversations, across all the team, and it never forgets anything. So it can actually be more effective than a human in a lot of respects. Corey Frank (12:12): How did you overcome the empathy? As we've spoken about many times, when you're giving feedback, you can't just give the, Chris and I had a conversation yesterday, we were talking about the old English aphorism where it's soft words, hard arguments, and that it's not versus hard, sharp words. But I bet that process to make it accessible, to make it connect emotionally from an empathetic perspective on the feedback was a challenge. I find that fascinating to find out how you've evolved that and tested that. Alex McNaughten (12:44): So it's moved very quickly. So we started with surveys a few months ago, was where we started. The problem is you don't get very good data and we realized that that was not good data and horrible experience for people to interact with, which is more important, reason why we moved away from that. And then really we've just built, tested, learned, iterated again and again and again over many, many, many cycles. And then also drawing from my experience because I've personally coached hundreds and hundreds of people. So just trying to embed it with as much of the learnings I've had through my 11 years in sales and then sales coaching. (13:20): So it's probably a mixture of, I guess, some psychology, some science, and then a little bit of art in terms of the testing and learning and the feel of it, to get it to a point now where it's able to coach in a human way and give feedback in a way that isn't jarring, which often having a conversation with an AI can feel quite jarring. And I'd say that's something that we are, I wouldn't say we've a hundred percent nailed it, but it's moving in the right direction fast. We're only kind of five months in. Corey Frank (13:54): Well yesterday, or I think this morning, there's the news here, in the States at least, Alex, that Bobby Knight was a very famous, very successful basketball coach at the college level for many, many years. One of the all time winning college basketball coach. And he had a very sardonic sense of humor, demeanor, very aggressive when it came to discipline with his players. He's frustrated, throws a chair across the court, grabbed one of his players by the throat. Nothing that we endorse as sales leaders of course. But very antagonistic and very Lin Subardi-esque to raise the bar of his folks. His famous phrase was, "I want it more than you do and that's a problem." (14:35): And Chris and I talked yesterday about a lot of leaders who are all about conviction, conviction, conviction, right Chris? And it's just boom, boom, boom. And I would imagine from a coaching perspective, Chris, you have some thoughts on this about introverts versus extroverts in sales, in that fine line, Alex, to build a platform that can talk to both types of sales personas. Chris, anything to add to that from the perspective of find that nuance of a coaching mechanism that speaks to both styles? Chris Beall (15:06): Yeah, I think there's three things in play here. One is Bobby Knight had an advantage. You couldn't very well transfer from the team you were playing on to some other team. And so you were kind of stuck, if you wanted to get into the NBA or you wanted to even have a successful college career, your foot was nailed to the floor and you were pivoting in circles, which people do in basketball a lot. And he'd really be pissed off and tell you were acting like your feet were nailed to the floor even when you were moving as fast as you could. (15:34): So in the modern world, salespeople can go work for whomever they want and the best ones can work, literally just write their ticket and do whatever they want, wherever they want. So you start acting like that and you're going to get down to the ones who like it, who like that kind of abuse, which is there are people who like that kind of thing, but not most high performers. (15:54): Secondly, I think this business of introverts and extroverts, I think introverts make better salespeople in general if they can bring energy, and energy is orthogonal to conviction. You don't need to persuade somebody just to be energetic in a conversation. You can be very present, very energetic, and yet very open-minded about what is the best thing to happen next. You don't need to be driving towards your end. And one thing we know about everybody, and it's salespeople and customers and everybody else, is when you push on them, they push back. They might push back overtly, they might push back covertly and they may wait and push in the way in which the back that they're pushing on is yours and they're doing it with a knife. (16:41): So there's a lot of issues that get buried in this short-term desire to get it done right now. And I think that it's one of the things I really liked about, again, I had a short demo with Alex, but I loved thinking about how an introverted salesperson who's really, really good would have fun exploring the ideas that Taylor is willing to bring out and would be encouraged. One of the things that... you got to check this thing out, Corey. Taylor actually says encouraging things to you, but only when Taylor thinks they're the things that you're doing that makes sense. And you're always doing something that makes sense, or you wouldn't be in the deal. Most sales managers never do that. They never tell you what you're doing right. And so there's an encouragement factor that I think works across a broader range of sales personalities, including the best personalities, which are high energy introverts. Susan Finch (17:37): We'll be back in a moment after a quick break. (17:48): ConnectAndSell. Welcome to the end of dialing as you know it. ConnectAndSell's patented technology loads your best sales folks up with eight to 10 times more live-qualified conversations every day. And when we say qualified, we're talking about really qualified, like knowing what kind of cheese they like on their Impossible Whopper kind of qualified. Learn more at connectandsell.com. (18:12): And we're back with Corey and Chris. Alex McNaughten (18:18): There's a few things I'd add to that. I think coaching in its purest form is not telling people what to do, it's helping them to get to the answers on their own, typically through smart questioning. So I think that's kind of really the starting point for a lot of what we've built here was with that kind of lens of coaching. (18:39): And then what Chris just said there around validation is super important. And this was a surprise to us. We didn't think that people would feel good with an AI-powered bot effectively saying to someone, "Hey, well done. That was smart, that was a good thing to do." But we've noticed that a number of the early users have been telling us, and they were surprised themselves that it actually felt good. It felt good to get validation from something that wasn't human. And that's probably partially due to the fact that, like you said, most of them don't get that from their boss regularly. (19:15): And it's not that their boss doesn't care, it's that their boss is stretched. Sales leaders are so stretched, they have way too many reports a lot of the time that they can handle. They don't know much about leadership in general, other than what they've been able to intuit over time. Corey Frank (19:33): Alex- Alex McNaughton (19:34): Yeah, jump in. Corey Frank (19:35): You bring up a great point. I'm sorry to step on your feet. I'm curious as a sales, am I threatened by this? How do I make this my friend? How do I amplify the results, because my gosh, what if my people, God forbid, they like AI better than they like me because I'm a sales manager who got into this because I have a high need for approval. Maybe I wasn't the best closer, and for the insecure folks in the audience like me, how do I deal with that? This sounds too good here to put me out of a job, potentially. Alex McNaughten (20:04): No, so the goal here is to make leaders better and make their experience as a leader better for them as well. So the early customers and leaders who are using this are saying, this is helping me make better and faster decision. It's helping me uncover things I didn't even know were going on in my team, but I can actually fix, and it's helping me to know where to focus on and who to focus on across my team. Who needs the help most at an individual level and how can I help the team as a whole. (20:33): And then it also from a feeling threatened perspective, I think, and Chris actually put it to me, he said, and I'm going to butcher exactly how you said it, but you said something along the lines of, "There's an inherent fragility in relying on technology for everything in a team environment," and things that can sometimes unexpectedly happen, and that's what the human there is for, is to deal with the unexpected. Technology can't solve absolutely everything. And I fundamentally believe that there is, even in an AI world, there is a space for great leadership. And I think technology actually just helps them be 10, 20, 50 times better to their team and ultimately drive performance. And that's probably the final thing, is a sales leader who's getting better results out of their team and hitting a better number themselves, I think that's going to feel good irrespective of whether you've got an AI coach in the mix supporting you. Corey Frank (21:27): Yeah, yeah. Well we know that Tony Stark was made a much better superhero with the voice at his head and the Jarvis that was rattling around his brain. Alex McNaughten (21:36): That's it, right? Corey Frank (21:38): [inaudible 00:21:38]. So I can see it. Alex McNaughten (21:40): That's it. Maybe that's the analogy. We should use the Ironman suit for sales managers. Chris Beall (21:44): Yeah, we already have it for sales reps, so you can borrow it from us. That was actually something that came out of serious decisions. One of their senior analysts about 10 years ago came over physically for an hour and a half with us. And at the end he said, "You guys have an Ironman suit for sales, don't you?" Well, it goes fast and lets you shoot stuff that you want to shoot, so I guess so. I don't know, does it smell good when you get out of it? We don't really know. That's another question entirely we have deal with. (22:13): Corey, you bring up a really good point. The question is, does this feel threatening to sales leaders? I actually suspect it won't. And in fact, I think there's a sales leader's version of this, of Taylor, where the questions that you're asking, the challenges, the frustrations are about the team themselves. And you are thinking of doing things like the things like are in the 17 chapters of that Love Your Team book where the question is, should I go this direction or that direction? Does this need this meeting or this conversation or that conversation? (22:45): My guess is, Taylor's going to expand fairly quickly to handle those conversations too. And nobody likes confessing to their boss, nobody likes being made fun of. In the world of sales, by the way, there's a lot of athletes that come out of trash talk land and they think trash talking is just like having fun with folks. Your entire team might not love being trash-talked at, to be called names or whatever it happens to be that was a big deal in the court or on the field where it just seems natural to folks who kind of grew up in competitive athletics. Well, not everybody in sales is a former competitive athlete from the field. In fact, some of the best in the world never did any of that stuff. They're very different kind of people and they don't take well to that particular style of interaction. (23:38): And one of the things that I think is so interesting about Taylor is, Taylor will challenge you clearly. Have you thought about this, but have you thought about... What do you think about this? You're doing this, but have you considered this? Right? And most sales leaders aren't comfortable enough in their own skin to say stuff like that. And if they came out of the world of trash talk, they can't resist having that little dig. So I think there's a lot here to be said for, think of it in the large, AI is a safe person to talk to, a bot is a safe person to talk to, because they can't fire you and they're not going to make fun of you. (24:16): And those are two pretty big deals when it comes to people feeling good about their own job. Because in sales, you've got to really feel good about yourself in order to help somebody else along the emotional journey they need to go on in order to have both real and perceived risk reduction to the point where they'll take the next step with you. And if you're feeling risk yourself as the sales rep, that feeling of risk is going to transmit itself directly to your prospect and they're going to be less likely to move forward with you because it doesn't feel right. (24:52): So where does your confidence come from? Well, it can't just come from inside. I mean, going to a sensory deprivation tank sometime and see how long it is before you're hallucinating like crazy. We don't stay sane because of what's going on inside of us. We stay sane because of what we're getting from the outside. And getting consistent positive affirmation from the outside that's not silly, is actually very helpful for all human beings to maintain their sanity and their confidence. Alex McNaughten (25:20): There's something in that, and that's one of the real motivators and drivers for me with this business is I've noticed over the years and across all these teams that I've just seen genuine human pain and frustration at a team level, at both leader and individual contributor level. And I think we can do better and I think that's the exciting thing that technology can unlock. And the salespeople who've been using Taylor have been telling us things like, this is positively confronting. This is helping me think about things, this is helping me learn. And it's a place I can go vent as well and let off some steam. (25:52): So it's really exciting. I'm so pumped for the next 10 years of business technology, one, what we are doing, but two, what other kind of opportunities we're going to be able to see in this space and this world of generative AI. So yeah, I think teams will fundamentally change and I think it can be a real catalyst for teams to change way for the better than where they're at right now. Corey Frank (26:14): Well that's wonderful. I agree. And what I hear both of you saying is that my job is relatively safe and I should not fear the reaper just yet from the AI bots taking over my job. (26:24): Okay, well we're going to leave it there. So Alex, thank you so much for wrapping some time. We'd love to have you as a standing guest here at the Market Dominance Guys, since I imagine the data that the team is going to compile here over the coming months or so is going to be incredibly valuable to everybody in our profession. So for Chris Beall, this is Corey Frank from the Market Dominance Guys. Alex McNaughten (26:49): Thanks for having me.  

In the last episode, our Sales sultans, Corey and Chris tackled the folly of chasing too many shiny objects. Now, Chris shares pragmatic insights on building resilient teams for the marathon versus the sprint. Should staff know the messy truths from day one? Chris believes people need full commitment to the mission.  Does solidarity trump balance sheet bravado when attempting bold new initiatives?  Chris says,  "I think people love to look at stuff because looking at stuff is lower risk than doing stuff. Doing stuff is very high risk. You could fail.” As Corey noted, presentations often overlook the people who drive innovation. Corey reminds us, “The people elements, traits, personas don't live on the balance sheet.” Here’s a question posed, "When you go to a potluck, do you only eat the food you brought first?"  Listen as they tackle tough topics like letting go of personnel clinging to the past versus embracing the unknown future in episode 202 of Market Dominance Guys, “ Keeping Teams Future-Focused and Failure-Ready.’   Full episode transcript below: ----more---- Susan Finch (00:05): Welcome to another session with the Market Dominance Guys, a program exploring all the high stakes speed bumps and off-ramps of driving to the top of your market, with our hosts, Chris Beall from ConnectAndSell and Corey Frank from Branch49. (00:21): The last episode, these sales consultants, Corey and Chris, tackled the folly of chasing too many shiny objects. Now, Chris shares pragmatic insights on building resilient [00:00:30] teams for the marathon versus the sprint. Should staff know the messy truths from day one? Chris believes people need a full commitment to the mission. Does solidarity trump balance sheet bravado when attempting bold new initiatives? Chris says, "I think people love to look at stuff, because looking at stuff is lower risk than doing stuff. Doing stuff is very high risk, and you could fail." (00:53): As Corey noted, presentations often overlook the people who drive innovation. He reminds us the [00:01:00] people elements, traits, personas, don't live on the balance sheet. (01:04): Here's a question posed. When you go to a potluck, do you only eat the food you brought first? Listen as they tackle tough topics, like letting go of personnel clinging to the past versus embracing the unknown future, in episode 202 of Market Dominance Guys, Keeping Teams Future-Focused and Failure-Ready. Corey Frank (01:30): [00:01:30] What would you suggest, as far as the level of candor, at an early stage, with your people, all the people, about what's our most profitable product or least profitable product, what's fungible and what's not, how we make money, do you believe and have you evolved and have you seen other scenarios where they want to just keep it to the C-suite, and you're just a team member, and here's your myopic [00:02:00] vision? Or do you believe, and success is contingent on everybody knowing exactly what they signed up for, if they're going to go off the earth on search of these new worlds? Chris Beall (02:10): Oh, I believe deeply. For me, it's at the interview process. The first time I ever said this to anybody in an interview, I was probably in my early 30s, and I said, "By the time you get to me, it's assumed that you're competent. They don't send incompetent people to be interviewed by me. [00:02:30] Well, that doesn't happen, so therefore, you're competent. So I'm not going to ask you any questions to assess your competence. What I want to do is make it clear to you what you're getting into, and it's going to be your choice whether you want to get in or not. And I'm good either way. So I know you're good enough to do the job. Now I'm going to tell you about the real job, and the real job is doing really hard things." (02:53): "So one, we're likely to fail, so you have to accept that we're likely to fail. Why do I think we're likely to fail? Because [00:03:00] otherwise, we wouldn't be doing this. Somebody else would've already done it who is less skilled, determined, insightful, clever or whatever than us. So we're going to do something hard, and hard things generally fail, so you're signing up for failure. So recognize that. But we're going to persist. We're probably going to have a good time. So two, you're signing up to have a good time. Why? Because otherwise, we can't do something so hard that we're likely to fail. It just doesn't work. It doesn't work [00:03:30] to come in all glum and morose, and everything's got to be great, otherwise, I got a bad day. I don't want to hear about your bad day. There are no bad days in the sense of going after the mission. We're just going to do it. So we're going to be enthusiastically wrong every day. That's going to be our thing, enthusiastically wrong every day. We're going to say, 'If we're not having fun, we're not taking this seriously enough,' So we're going to do that." (03:53): "And third is, we're going to make a weird sacrifice. I've made it. You'll have to make it too. [00:04:00] That is, we're going to do uncomfortable things when it's time to do them, and we're going to lay them out, what they are. So some of them are we don't get to sell to the people we want to sell to, and some of them are we don't get to build the stuff we want to build, and some of them are, we don't get to go fast when it's time to go slow. They're like that. There are those sorts of things. And we're signing up to do those things when it's time to do them." (04:24): "You might notice they all have an interesting feature. They're all in order to reduce [00:04:30] the risk of failure because this is likely to fail. If we don't reduce the risk of failure, we're going to fail for sure. So your career, during this period, is going to be built entirely on our success, not on the skills you gather, which you will gather skills, it's magic, it happens, or the people you meet, but you will meet people. You'll have networks. None of that stuff is the purpose of what we're doing. If our purpose is to make you better, we would've had to have been [00:05:00] bigger already and on a mission where we can't fail, but that's not this mission. This is a mission where we're likely to fail." (05:08): So here's the test, then I tell people this, and people are appalled still to this day. If you come to me at some point, and you say, "Hey, I want to go to a conference in order to increase my skills, meet some people or do whatever," I'll remind you of this conversation. The second time you do it, I'll fire you. They go, "Oh." It's like, but if you want to go on a mission with some folks and try to do a hard thing, [00:05:30] you won't die after all, everybody probably will advance professionally because people respect people who do hard things. They do. And you learn real stuff doing hard things. (05:42): But the hardest of the hard things are making the transition from one stage of the company to the other. And there's only one person who's going to declare that that's something that has to happen. That's me. And you're accepting that coming in. I'm the guesser. When we must guess, and this is always a guess, I'm the guesser, [00:06:00] and you have to accept that my guesses are the truth. And it's corrupt. I get it. But mathematically, there's no other way to pull it off. Just can't be done. Somebody's got to be the guesser, and you're talking to him. Corey Frank (06:16): It seems that when you look at a business model, a company, in X years, we're going to have the hockey stick. We're going to have the J-curve. We're going to have all this, that. Without those elements, what you just described [00:06:30] of the type of people, without even talking about it, because there's many investment presentations you and I have been part of where it's all about the product. It's all about the market. It's all about the margins. It's all about the executables. But it's rarely about the people besides the little bubbles of the three founders or the person who's in charge of your innovation or the person who's in charge of your delivery. But you don't get into that level of persona, that level of first-born, [00:07:00] second-born, last-born, that dynamic of risk-taker, thar be dragons type of courage. And it seems like there should be in your world, correct? Susan Finch (07:13): We'll be back in a moment after a quick break. (07:16): Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it's time to really go big, you need to use an uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts and employee successful sequencing that is fresh [00:07:30] enough to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. From crafting just the right cold call screenplays to curating and mapping the ideal call list for your entire team, Branch49's modern and innovative sales toolbox offers a guiding hand to ambitious organizations in their quest to reach market dominance. Learn more at branch49.com. (08:00): [00:08:00] And we're back with Corey and Chris. Chris Beall (08:03): It's kind of the whole game. It's kind of the whole game. I look at our company, the thing I'm really proud of about our company is the average tenure of people who are leading our company or doing important jobs is 11.2 years. My tenure is just over 12 years. Corey Frank (08:19): At a SaaS software company. Chris Beall (08:20): At a SaaS software. Corey Frank (08:21): Yeah, that's amazing. Chris Beall (08:23): And the reason is not that we pay them extra. I think we do okay. The reason is they signed up for the mission. They're serious [00:08:30] about the mission. The mission is the mission. We're actually trying to help with this big problem, which is it's really hard to make businesses work, to make the innovation economy work, unless folks trust each other, and they won't trust each other to do that thing that they need to do, which is the risky buy, unless that trust is produced somehow consistently through conversations. That's our mission. (08:57): And it's fun to be part of. We don't have a [00:09:00] mission statement. We don't talk about the mission, blah, blah, blah. It's literally in our blood. At this point, it's in the organization's blood. And so somebody who might want to work with us, they might sense that, but what we know is there's a bunch of stuff we don't have to worry about. There's a bunch of stuff we don't have to think about. We can operate at the level of minute details about things like, oh, with fast phone numbers, the score [00:09:30] of 50 officially means that we don't know anything about that number, but it doesn't actually mean that it's just a little below 50.1. It actually has another meaning. Therefore, when we use it with the customers, we should do this instead of that. It frees us to do that kind of work all day long. (09:47): And it's that kind of work that allows that business model to be animated with reality. It's not revisiting the numbers. I mean, I think people love to look at stuff [00:10:00] because looking at stuff has lower risk than doing stuff. Corey Frank (10:05): Lower risk than doing stuff, yeah. Chris Beall (10:07): Doing stuff is very high risk. You could fail. So you have to be very enthusiastic about failure to actually embark on doing things many, many times a day. (10:16): I think I've told the story on the podcast. I'll tell it again. My eldest, back many, many, many years ago, came to the office on a bring your kid to the office. And we sat through a long meeting in which there was a lot of numbers, [00:10:30] and we were walking over to Starbucks afterwards, and the snow was falling through the air. And she stopped and said, "Dad, can I ask you a question?" I said, "Sure." She said, "Do they really think that by talking about the numbers, they're going to change the numbers? And I said, "Yes, they do." She thought about it for a second, said, "That's very sad." (10:55): There's such a temptation to look and think that [00:11:00] looking at where you are in the progress that was predicted by the business model is going to tell you something about what you need to do. What you need to do sits right in front of you, as long as you're not doing stuff that takes you backwards. But if you allow your salespeople to sell to your previous market, the one from your previous stage, you're going backwards. The relationship with a business model of sales is there's a gate. You go through the gate. We're done with the tech enthusiasts. Now [00:11:30] we're finding a visionary. (11:31): By the way, your sales team can't probably help you with that. Maybe they know some people. You're going to have to do that one yourself because what you put on the table is what you put on the table. Nobody's going to be able to do it but you. (11:42): Now, we've gone past that. Okay, we have the remaining resources. We now have some money. We didn't have to take two rounds of venture capital. Isn't that cool? That's why your VCs will never let you do this because they want to provide those two rounds of venture capital. But now, you're cool. Hey, here's our hypothesis. This is our market. Let's [00:12:00] go get the first one. Totally new activity. Everything we did before, if we start doing that again in order to "make quota," we're going backwards. As long as we're not going backwards, all we can deal with is the details in front of us, which is problems that are friction in our mission. (12:19): So what do we do? Well, we address the friction. How do we do it? We name it. We characterize it. It's all theory of constraints at this point, all the way down. It's just over and over, the same cycle. How do we [00:12:30] get the energy to do it? Because we believe it's a good thing to do, and we signed up to do it with each other. That's why. That's how. Corey Frank (12:36): And it's not on the balance sheet. None of those people, things, traits, you, Dan, Seth, Matt Forbes, I mean [inaudible 00:12:44], none of that lives on the balance sheet in any multidimensional form, but yet it makes all the difference. Chris Beall (12:51): Exactly. I mean, if you were to put it on the balance sheet, you'd put it in goodwill, but goodwill is supposedly the goodwill of the market toward you. But actual goodwill is [00:13:00] goodwill of you toward the market for people you've never met. Corey Frank (13:05): Yeah, for sure. Chris Beall (13:06): It's that story you tell, and I was just in Europe, you talk to the three brick layers at the cathedral. I'm laying bricks to feed my family. That's noble. A lot of people work like that. Well, I'm laying bricks to build this beautiful work of art, this edifice, which will last for a thousand years. Okay, that's nice. I'm saving men's souls, right? What [00:13:30] is it that's driving all of you together to do the inconvenient thing of dealing with inconvenient details and broken stuff? Because all there is is broken stuff. I mean, otherwise you wouldn't be fixing it. (13:43): Every day going forward, your job as the leader is to make sure that you don't go backwards. You'll naturally go forward then. So what's going to take you backwards? Your sales team will take you backwards because you compensate them to do that. So don't do that, and [00:14:00] then your business model can move forward. (14:02): Does it really have to follow exactly the math. Our business is interesting. I've been talking to people about it recently. It's like, well, your retention isn't high enough. Well, what's the purpose of retention? Well, to allow you to grow. Well, look at the growth. Well, you can't be growing because the retention's not high enough. No, we're actually growing. Therefore, for the way we sell, it must be high enough. But folks forget that. They [00:14:30] take the antecedents, and they go, "Oh, this has to be here." No. You can look at how it's actually progressing and ask yourself the question, "Are we acquiring more customers that we're helping in a way that they would say good things about us?" Pretty simple, pretty big. (14:49): And how fast is it going? It's probably going about as fast as it's likely to go given the situation and the resources we have. Hence profits, by the way, because profits are the infinite [00:15:00] investment. They're infinite. They go on for all time, as long as you keep being profitable. Corey Frank (15:06): And that's hopefully what your business model will continue to show. So that's a clinic, Chris, and I think we need to have a couple more episodes about that is all the things that could be in goodwill that most folks don't think about when they're building a SaaS or software company. And you hit on a lot of them, which is the people element, and certainly given [00:15:30] me much sage advice over the years when we talk about personnel. There's a good friend of this program and a good buddy of mine. His name is Eli Chmouni, comes from Neon. He's a great entrepreneur, multiple time entrepreneur, and he went to a workshop with Todd Davis, the founder of LifeLock. This may be a year or so ago. And this is the antithesis of what you're saying about the retention of folks, because hanging onto some folks past their shelf date could be a challenge [00:16:00] to say the least. (16:01): And he goes to this workshop with Todd Davis, and the first thing Todd Davis says, I'm paraphrasing, meets the group, doesn't do an introduction, just comes out and says, "Folks," talking to a group of CEOs, "on Monday, you need to fire that person." Everybody's looking around, and it kind of sunk in a little bit. And he says, "The fact that everybody knew and drew their mind to one person in their mind shows you that you know exactly who I'm talking [00:16:30] about, and you just needed a sign from the universe to tell you you're doing the right thing. You're going to do the right thing by having this person move on to the next stage of their career," because we've all done that, as you've said earlier, Chris, when you bring an organization up from the roots and the ground level, and you have some folks that maybe brought you to another level, but it's probably time where they [inaudible 00:16:56], and it's a very, very difficult thing. I found it in my career, very, very, very difficult [00:17:00] to hang on to folks well past their point, but it does bring the organization to a level where it stifles growth. That's another thing I'd like your comment on here before we wrap it up. Chris Beall (17:11): Well, there's a lot of folks who yearn for the past. They yearn for what was. I think all of us do to some degree. One of the, I would call it, the horrible things about business is it doesn't have a lot of tolerance for our feelings about the past because we have these folks out there called competitors [00:17:30] who are trying to actually provide something better than we're providing to customers at a lower price and with greater convenience and so forth. (17:37): And we have this odd obligation. It's an odd obligation to make a horrible sacrifice every once in a while, which is that somebody who can't overcome the draw of the past, whatever that happens to be, that pulls them in that direction, needs to stop pulling us all toward the past. (17:58): And I don't think there's another [00:18:00] cure for it. It's not like there's anything wrong with them. And sometimes it happens in people's lives. They just get to a point where it's like the past is more attractive than the future. At least it's known. That's better the known than the unknown. And yet, when we're building businesses, pretty much all we're doing is wrestling with the unknown. That's kind of it. And we have to do it together. And if somebody doesn't want to wrestle with the unknown, or can't, it's more like can't anymore, but we have to [00:18:30] arrange for them to go find another known. Corey Frank (18:34): Yeah. It's the example of when you show up for a potluck, and you and your spouse bring your dish, and you show up to a potluck, a neighborhood or a company, etc., whose food do you eat? You generally eat your own because you know what's in it. You've made it, and you know what it tastes like. Suppose an organization, after a certain point, is that way is maybe the litmus test is everybody should have a potluck. And if you eat your own food, chances are is you're certainly suspect, whether you're [00:19:00] due to maintain the organization so. (19:03): Well, that's great stuff, Chris. Beautiful to have you back on this side of the pond, 200 plus episodes under the belt, all kinds of stuff. We got to finish this book one of these days. Certainly, we're going to have a multiple volumes and topics. I learned so much from this, from being, as I said on a LinkedIn post the other day, the more mentally stifled version of Ed McMahon to you, the king of late nights, the king of mid-morning, the king of late afternoon, wherever it is, where people listen [00:19:30] to this podcast. So Chris, for the Market Dominance Guys, this is Corey Frank. Until next time.  

Getting punched in the face is practically a rite of passage for startups with seemingly bulletproof business models. Spreadsheets might predict hockey stick growth, but, as Corey says "customers aren't formulas on a page. They're human beings who are often "repulsed by new technology". Adoption requires an emotional journey and trust, not a formula. Yet founders frequently ignore reality, believing spreadsheets will magically generate growth. Chris says this quest for an easy quota can even derail progress as "salespeople focused on quota may take company backwards" by clinging to the past. Hence leaders must prevent "retrograde motion back to what was comfortable before" by being "hard-edged on changing direction." There are no maps for the uncharted path from startup to sustainable enterprise. But experienced guides like Corey and Chris are happy to share their battle scars and perspectives.  Join us for this episode, “Customers Aren't Formulas: Navigating the Emotional Journey.”   Full episode transcript below: ----more---- Announcer (00:06): Welcome to another session with the Market Dominance Guys, a program exploring all the high stakes, speed bumps and off-ramps of driving to the top of your market, with our host Chris Beall from ConnectAndSell, and Corey Frank from Branch49. (00:21): Getting punched in the face is practically a rite of passage for startups with seemingly bulletproof business models. Spreadsheets might predict hockey stick growth, but as Corey [00:00:30] says, customers aren't formulas on a page. They're human beings. Adoption requires an emotional journey and trust, not a formula. Yet, founders frequently ignore reality, believing spreadsheets will magically generate growth. Chris says this quest for an easy quota can even derail progress, as salespeople focused on quota may take the company backwards by clinging to the past. Hence, leaders must prevent retrograde motion back to what was comfortable by being hard-edged on changing direction. [00:01:00] There are no maps for the uncharted path from startup to sustainable enterprise, but experience guides like Corey and Chris are happy to share their battle scars and perspectives. (01:10): Join us for this episode, Customers Aren't Formulas: Navigating the Emotional Journey. Corey Frank (01:20): And here we are. Welcome to another episode of the Market Dominance Guys, episode, I believe, 201, with the sage of sales, [00:01:30] the prophet of profit, the Hawking of Hawking, fresh back from his jaunt across the pond, freshly stocked with Porto and Cabernet and other assorted box wines, knowing Chris and the fetching Miss Fanucci. Chris, welcome back. Episode 201, what do you have to say about that, my friend? Chris Beall (01:51): Well, it's great to be back on this continent. There's all sorts of things that are wonderful here, even on the East Coast. And I'm hanging out at the Breakers, where I've learned the value of money, [00:02:00] which is no matter how much money you bring, you can't get anything of value. Corey Frank (02:04): The Breakers, yes, I understand they're renowned for their breakfast at the Breakers, right? Did you have a coupon, or how did you... I mean, the Breakers, talk a little bit about the breakfast before we get in our topic today. Chris Beall (02:15): Pretty much it's all-inclusive if you pay $64 for the buffet. And hey, I had a very nice omelet there. By the way, the service of the Breakers is really second to none. Every single person that I've talked to here is incredibly accommodating, [00:02:30] gracious, pleasant, and willing to do the right things. Corey Frank (02:33): Yeah. Chris Beall (02:34): Yeah, you stack up on Stacey's Naked chips, so guacamole and some salsa, you have the breakfast, and then you get through the rest of the day alive and bring your own wine, because the only way it's going to work either. Corey Frank (02:45): Great. Well, let's talk a little bit about one of the topics that you and I, I think, gosh, it's peppered throughout the Market Dominance Guys on many of our 200 plus episodes with guests or without, and that is everybody [00:03:00] has a business model until they get punched in the face. But I want to talk to you about different business models. You've been talking with a lot of private equity firms, a lot of other investors. A business model from what I was taught, and I think you probably taught me this, Chris, is above all, it should be geared to make a profit. And certainly, you want to study your competition, you want to get the right staff and get the right talent level in there, but your business model should be geared to make a profit. (03:28): But let's start from [00:03:30] the basics here on this. The traditional SaaS business models that are out there, they're template driven oftentimes by a lot of VCs, a lot of investors. There's a certain gate you have to go through on your friends and family, and then your seed round before you get your A round, and you have to have certain level of churn and a certain amount of continuity in the business and a price point and a cap below six months. So what do you talk about [00:04:00] when you're advising other CEOs and other investors who are thinking about investing in SaaS companies, about the business model writ large? Chris Beall (04:09): Well, one of the things that I keep getting reminded of is there is truths underneath all of these potential models, and they're unchanging truths. So one of them, for instance, if you're doing a SaaS business, is SaaS is likely to be technology, believe it or not. And as such, it is likely to be [00:04:30] seen or felt as abhorrent by regular people who might consider the possibility of buying it. And the reason it's abhorrent is people don't like new stuff, they don't understand. It makes them kind of sick to their stomach. And the fact that you built it, you love it, it doesn't make it any less abhorrent to them. They're repulsed by it, I believe would be the correct term. And that's a universal. (04:54): That doesn't go away because in your spreadsheet you happen to have a row that says [00:05:00] add headcount, or spend money on marketing, bringing people to the website or whatever, and therefore, the revenue will grow magically as a result. The actual underlying process that needs to take place is, at some point, somebody who fundamentally doesn't want to buy anything like your stuff because it makes them sick to their stomach to think about it, has to decide to do so because it solves a broken mission-critical business process for them. And [00:05:30] preferably, at some point later, others buy for the same reason, and also because, "Hey, Mary bought it, and she's like me." So every time that Mary buys something, she's kind of the lead dog, "I'm willing to buy," maybe, or at least think about it. (05:46): So we've talked about that, how markets are essentially these sort of self-organizing sets of businesses you could sell to, where each sale you make successfully and service in a way that causes [00:06:00] value to flow, which is another thing, reduces your cost and risk of the next sale. And when you get to the edge of that market, it no longer reduces the cost and risk. It's no longer inter referencing. (06:11): So that deep truth about people, people hate new technology, it makes them sick to their stomach, is very important. And it's very rare that in a business model that's on a spreadsheet that somebody has populated full of month over month growth [00:06:30] numbers or whatever, and all this much of it is aspirational, by the way, if we don't hit the rule of 40, our growth rate plus our EBITDA adds up to 40 while we're doomed, therefore, let's make sure it always adds up to 40. And then let's back into that by saying, "Well, we need the resources to do it." And then let's back into that by saying, "We need the venture capital to get those resources." (06:54): What if there's an air gap under there, or a super slippery [00:07:00] little slope in there somewhere that says, "Yeah, but regular people aren't going to want to buy that at this point." So business models can fool us, popular ones, especially when they have money behind us, them, into thinking the money will deny the truth of how people actually buy. And the truth of how people actually buy, the emotional journey that they go on to go from, "What?" to, "Yeah, I'll do that." That emotional journey [00:07:30] is based on stuff that has nothing to do with your business model, and you can't force it to happen. You don't have the luxury. (07:38): People always tell me, "Oh, yeah, my... That crossing the chasm stuff, I don't need that crap. We're already across the chasm. Unlike everybody else, we were born across the chasm, because our stuff is so great, so compelling. We do PLG." "Oh, what's PLG?" "Well, we give it away, and then that [00:08:00] way we learn a lot about it. And then..." Okay, so if you ask a simple question, have any PLG companies with relatively compelling products that somebody looked at, ever failed? Answer: Oh, yeah, lots of them. Lots of them. Well, if it's a powerful model that sort of can't fail on a spreadsheet, why does it fail in reality? Why do SaaS models tend to fail in reality? Rob McClarty has mentioned this. He says, "No, the streets are paved with the bones of SaaS companies [00:08:30] that looked perfect on the spreadsheet." Corey Frank (08:32): Yeah. Chris Beall (08:33): Why? And I believe the why is, is because the realities of human beings making a decision to trust somebody more than they trust themselves are simply ignored in those models. They're ignored in time, in magnitude, in dependencies. What do you have to get before you can get there? They're just ignored. And they're ignored, because the money is impatient. Corey Frank (09:00): [00:09:00] Well, that's what we're going to get to is that a little bit of, I guess, internally Gresham's law, you would say, is that, Chris, scenario, if I had a SaaS company that you and I started and we had $5 million in capital to use however we want, not with the benefit of the last 25 years of experience or so, but just as maybe a first or second runaround, or had the benefit of funding it ourselves, [00:09:30] which one is more preferable from the aspect of crossing the chasm, learning a little bit about how your market runs and how it works versus potentially bastardizing it with too much of a good thing? So where would you stand on a scenario like that? Chris Beall (09:50): Well, in the general case, money is poisonous, in the general case for businesses. So why is it poisonous? It's poisonous, because it causes us to believe [00:10:00] that what is in front of us is something other than what's actually in front of us. So if I have enough money that I can buy that $64 breakfast buffet and think that it's nothing, then I have enough money to do a number of other stupid things with my money. But the breakfast isn't actually more nutritious, because if I bought it for seven bucks instead of 64 bucks, does it actually do more for my body? That was the purpose of breakfast, by the way, for me. I don't go to breakfast to see and be seen, [00:10:30] I have to admit. First of all, nobody wants to see me. And secondly, why would I want to be seen? I'd rather be privately having my breakfast somewhere. But they were serving it out in the open. (10:40): So why is money poisonous in business is really interesting. I was just on somebody's podcast today talking to them about this. If you have new technology, and all SaaS is technology, therefore at some point, it's new technology. This is kind of like just math. People sometimes beat up on me, "Why do you say that's just math?" Because it's just math. [00:11:00] So it's just math that if you have something later, you must have something earlier. And at some point, you had the one that's earliest, and so it's new. Okay. So here's the problem with new technology, you actually don't even know what it should be. You just have your fervent imagination, your fantasy or whatever. (11:19): But there are these folks out there that we call tech enthusiasts who love to play with and beat up new technology. It's how they make their way in the world, because they work at companies where [00:11:30] other people in the company would like to know, "Well, what's new, and what's working?" And that's what they do. They don't have a title that says new technology checker outer, but they exist, and they're called tech enthusiasts. If you skip the step of selling to tech enthusiasts, then your technology will never actually have been beaten up enough at a very, very low cost. Because they'll pay you a little, not much. But they will beat it up. And you can't buy that. You can't buy it. Your QA team will do nothing to that product compared to [00:12:00] what the tech enthusiasts will do. And they'll do it in all good humor. They're actually trying to make it work. But they're going to tell you about every little thing that's wrong, and you can choose to fix those things or not. You should probably choose to fix them. Corey Frank (12:14): Yeah. Chris Beall (12:15): So that little annealing process, that little process of going from an idea embodied in code to code that actually implements at least part of the idea, that needs to be done. So if you have too [00:12:30] much money floating around, you've got that 5 million in the bank, you're likely to either skip that step or do something even worse, which is to go back to your funder and say, "I have product market fit." Corey Frank (12:44): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Chris Beall (12:45): "How do I know it? Look, the dogs are eating the dog food." Well, those are not the dogs. They are not the dogs. The dogs are on the other side of the chasm. What's eating your dog food? [00:13:00] Are these very enthusiastic sort of, I don't know what they are, maybe rodents of some kind. And they love dog food, but they're still not dogs. And you can tell, by the way, because they won't pay you very much for it. Corey Frank (13:13): It's what we talked about with the legendary Dr. Goldratt, where there's a tail, but it doesn't necessarily mean there's a dog behind that tail. Chris Beall (13:25): Exactly. Exactly. Corey Frank (13:26): And I think the example that we talked about was [00:13:30] Botox, right? Where, hey, Botox seems like, hey, people want to look younger, they want to feel younger. They love the image it portrays. But unfortunately, people also hate needles. So if it was a pill form or a cream form, that would catch on much more widely. It already is pretty wide, but it's not exactly this dog behind the tail. And tails can be seductive, because there are these semi businesses, these nichey businesses, [00:14:00] these almost businesses. But it certainly doesn't create a market dominant type of business. Correct? Chris Beall (14:07): Exactly. And the fact is, tech enthusiasts as the tail end question, they're anti referenceable. They're anti referenceable. If a tech enthusiast is using your product and loves it, that reduces the chance that's somebody who's a regular kind of business person is going to say, "I want to use that too." Because they're going to look [00:14:30] over there and go, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mary's like that. She'll try anything. She loves new stuff. She tinkers with it. She has a great time with it. That's not me." So if she's using it, it's not ready for primetime. Corey Frank (14:46): But if I have all this capital, is it the formula, get money, hire salespeople, yield revenue? Chris Beall (14:55): Yeah, that's what's on the spreadsheets, right? Corey Frank (14:58): Yeah. Chris Beall (14:58): I mean, how many spreadsheets have I seen [00:15:00] in my career that work like this? And I laugh. I make fun of them a little bit. I try not to be cruel. And then I choose to be cruel to see whether I can actually get them to jump off that horse and walk around a little bit. And they work like this, "Well, here's our business. You see, we have a bunch of words that describe the market. And then what we do is we add resources that generate revenue," they're called salespeople. "And we also spend money on [00:15:30] marketing that generates demand. The salespeople service. And well, now we're done. Now we're done. Now, we go execute. How do we execute? We hire salespeople." It's like, okay, so I know for sure what's going to happen when we hire salespeople. Corey Frank (15:47): Yeah. Chris Beall (15:48): The salespeople are going to do a little of what works. So what will they do? Well, if your product is not yet gone past the tech enthusiast phase, they will [00:16:00] sell to tech enthusiasts. No matter what you say your ideal customer profile is, they will sell to whomever allows them to succeed. And in sales, succeeding means, "I close deals, and the deals are for money." So now, the salespeople will both cost you money, which is a problem. Corey Frank (16:18): Yeah. Chris Beall (16:19): And then they'll take you in the opposite direction from where you need to go, which is a bigger problem. And then you'll get addicted to it, because you'll start looking at the sales results [00:16:30] and going, "Wow, this is great," which is a bigger problem. And then you'll start celebrating these things and calling them wins. "It's a win. What happened is a win." Well, we're trying to have Billy here grow up to be big and strong. And look, he's over there eating Jello. At least he's eating more Jello. We have a win." I'm not saying Jello is bad. Corey Frank (16:54): A phantom product market fit. Chris Beall (16:57): Exactly. Phantom fantasy product market... [00:17:00] Then we get to the hard part. And this is what we were going through today on this podcast. The hard part is, not this one, but this other one I was on. Now you've got to decide what do you do next? So your technology has been beaten up a little bit and you've made some fixes, but nobody has ever really held your feet to the fire. Nobody has ever said, "This has got to work, or somebody dies here." (17:23): And that's the role of this kind of customer who's next, who is misnamed, I think we've talked about this before, as the visionary. [00:17:30] Everything Jeffrey Moore ever said was correct, except I think he chose the wrong name for the visionary, because it's their vision of beating the living daylights out of two or three or four of their competitors or escaping a noose that they feel closing around their neck. So they exist out there, and there's one of them who really wants your technology to go and get competitive advantage. And if I had a $1.52 for every time [00:18:00] somebody said, "This is great. This customer of ours, prospect, they see themselves getting competitive advantage. Isn't that wonderful?" Announcer (18:10): We'll be back in a moment after a quick break. ConnectAndSell. Welcome to the end of dialing as you know it. ConnectAndSell's patented technology loads your best sales folks up with eight to 10 times more live [00:18:30] qualified conversations every day. And when we say qualified, we're talking about really qualified, like knowing what kind of cheese they like on their Impossible Whopper kind of qualified. Learn more at connectandsell.com. (18:44): And we're back with Corey and Chris. Chris Beall (18:51): If you're at that stage, go get one of them. Go get one of them, charge them a huge amount of money. Make sure they get us, and do something [00:19:00] with them. But don't do two. Corey Frank (19:02): Don't do two. Chris Beall (19:03): Don't do two. Corey Frank (19:04): Yeah. This aspect of this insidious decline, I guess, that happens in this performance, when I assume that my dogs, the type of dogs I want are eating the type of dog food I'm producing. And all of a sudden, I don't get any new dogs. These are the same dogs who are eating the same dog food. The population of the dogs around the bowl are not increasing. [00:19:30] There's generally, and you've taught me this, Chris, sometimes there's this lateral adjustment that happens where, "Well, it must be the sales manager then," or, "It must be the systems I'm using," or, "It must be the comp plans." How do I know that it's not necessarily a lateral problem? It could be. And instead, more of a vertical challenge here that is going to be the bugaboo to vet out whether I have the right business model. Chris Beall (20:00): [00:20:00] Well, this is where being a senior person is super helpful. So one of the things that you get from seniority, senior people, talking to senior people, is you get what I call a shot at the truth. So if you go to one of your customers that you think is a dog that's across the chasm, referenceable and all that, don't go to the person who actually made the decision to buy. Go to their boss, go to their boss's boss, and talk to them about the business problem that [00:20:30] your product is addressing for them. Just talk to them about it. Ask them like, "How's it doing? What's it doing for you?" (20:39): So if they talk about competitive advantage, well, they're a visionary. If you charge them regular prices, you know you undercharged. That's all there is to it. Plus, you didn't put enough in the deal. If you talk to them, and they say, "Well, this is great. Mary's learned so much using your product. We really have gotten a good view of how generative AI [00:21:00] could work in our business." You know it's a tech enthusiast, so that's not a dog at all. That's like some kind of a whatever, something else. (21:08): If they talk about they have this business problem, things changed, times changed, and your product helps them take friction out of the mission and get back to where they were doing what they were doing before, maybe even better. That is they had a broken mission-critical business process. Then you've got yourself a dog. [00:21:30] Now, you've got to find out, "Well, along which dimensions are they a dog? What is it about them that would cause somebody else to buy because they bought?" Well, you just ask them that question like, "Well, of these six or seven companies that we've been talking to, which one would you have gotten the most comfort from? I know you bought us, I get it. But had we sold to which one of these first, would it have allowed you to say, 'Oh, this is safe. This is safer.'" (22:00): [00:22:00] Well, they're in the market. Because they're very rare. It's very rare there's symmetries in business. Almost everything in business is asymmetric. It doesn't matter what you say, it's all asymmetric. Water runs downhill. It doesn't run across flat surfaces, and it sure doesn't run uphill. So here, you have this early adopter. This is a true early adopter of your technology. This isn't a tech enthusiast. This is somebody in market. Their relationship to the other players around is, if another one had gone first, who's [00:22:30] enough like them, they would've happily gone second. They went first, because, inconveniently, they couldn't figure out how to go second. (22:38): So just ask them. Ask them, "Who among this..." And you have to give them a list. "If we had sold to them first, it would've made it easier for you to buy?" And they'll tell you. And now you know, "Okay, that's somebody else in the market. We'll go sell to them." So the folks you've sold to will tell you who the rest of your market is from their perspective, [00:23:00] by reversing the order of the question and saying, "Who, if they had bought first, would've lowered my cost and my risk of selling to you?" And they'll tell you. Corey Frank (23:10): I think, and you and I have been around a lot of founders, a lot of CEOs, a lot of boards, because the business model is one dimensional. It's not an animate object. You have the people who are maybe a little bit more tree hugging in their approach to a [00:23:30] business model. They prevaricate when confronted maybe with some market data or some anecdotes from their sales team. Balance that as a CEO knowing to abandon ship, knowing when to bail water, knowing when to tack to a new course. So above the spreadsheet, when it's you alone [00:24:00] and you're in your office at 7:00 PM on a Friday, you got a board meeting next week, your people are waiting to hear from you in the all hands-on a Monday morning. What traits do you find most helpful in those solitude moments? Chris Beall (24:17): Whoa. Whoa. That's a good one. I think the main thing that you need to bring to the party at that point is just clarity. Just [00:24:30] clarity. It's like, if it's clear you don't know what you're doing, be clear that you don't know what you're doing.