In a stunning reversal, the Democrat Party has announced plans to reconnect with its New Deal roots in hopes of regaining the trust of the working class. Haha just kidding! This week, Yeva Nersisyan joins Steve to cut through the cacophony of phony punditry trying to explain the 2024 election results. Spoiler alert: it’s economics. It’s always economics. Yeva points to the stark realities of inflation, highlighting the persistent rise in food and housing costs. She points out that while inflation is often cited as a primary concern, the real issue lies in how US economic policies have consistently failed to address the needs of the people, especially those at the lower end of the income scale. Voters are not dazzled by Wall Street’s success. The conversation goes into the failures of past administrations and takes a look at mistakes made during and after the height of the Covid pandemic. Promising policies were on the table, yet the monies were often spent in ways least helpful to the majority. As an MMT economist, Yeva has worked on comprehensive economic proposals that demonstrate the affordability of providing a green new deal, healthcare, and a job guarantee. The episode continually reinforces the necessity of a class perspective when looking at the failure of neoliberalism. Yeva Nersisyan is an associate professor of economics at Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster, PA. She received her B.A. in economics from Yerevan State University in Armenia, and her M.A. and Ph.D. in economics and mathematics from the University of Missouri-Kansas City. She is a macroeconomist working in the Modern Money Theory, Post-Keynesian, and Institutionalist traditions. Her research interests include banking and financial instability, and fiscal and monetary theory and policy. She has published a number of papers on the topics of shadow banking, fiscal policy, government deficits and debt, and the Green New Deal. Nersisyan is currently coediting the Elgar Companion to Modern Money Theory with L. Randall Wray. Find her work at levyinstitute.org/publications/yeva-nersisyan 

"Colonized people have the right to resist." Economist and friend of the podcast Fadhel Kaboub talks with Steve about the effects of global hegemony and the ongoing attempts to shift the balance of power. They look at BRICS, though it’s perhaps too soon to predict its ultimate outcome and influence. Fadhel argues that a true multipolar world cannot emerge without placing the Global South at the center of economic decision-making, challenging the existing economic domination by the US and other nations. The history of colonial exploitation continues to affect the resource-rich region.Fadhel also addresses the ways in which Israel is carrying out the US agenda in Gaza. He points out that the world’s reaction is being influenced by the ready availability of direct information via social media. "The world didn't start on October 7th. There was a world before that. And there is a colonial project that was being built in Gaza and Palestine. "Every colonial case we've seen in Africa and the rest of the Global South created resistance movements and resistance. Some people resist in the streets, some people resist with little pebbles and stones, some people resist with weapons. Some people resist with their voice, some people resist with their pen. But it's resistance. And it's a legitimate right to resist.  "It's beginning to click for a lot of people that colonized people have the right to resist." Fadhel Kaboub is an associate professor of economics at Denison University (presently on leave) and the president of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. He's the author of Global South Perspectives on Substack.Find his work at kaboub.com and globalsouthperspectives.substack.com@FadhelKaboub on Twitter

“A capitalist economy requires constant imperialist wars because it has to constantly suppress prices and wages and reorganize production in the global south around accumulation in the core. That is ultimately the system that we have to overcome.” Jason Hickel, who won our hearts a while back by accepting MMT, talks with Steve about the burning issue of our time. (No, not the US election, though they touch on the electoral system.) As much as Gaza is dominating social media, we must continue to stress its place in the capital order. Jason points us to Israel’s true role: sowing chaos and instability in the region.  The conversation covers the historical and ongoing imperialistic strategies of the U.S. and its reactions to the mid-century liberation movements of the Global South, placing US support for Israel's actions as part of a broader capitalist agenda to maintain control over the world's resources and labor markets. Jason looks at China’s domestic successes and how they have led to the US virtually declaring war. He also touches on recent news about BRICS. Jason compares the history of the state of Israel to that of apartheid S. Africa. They used many of the same tactics and rationalizations. When it comes to the future for Israelis and Palestinians, S. Africa again provides a model: “What is the actual solution for this region? And I think we have to be clear. The alternative is democracy. The alternative to apartheid is democracy.  Democracy and equal rights for all people in the land of Palestine, from the river to the sea... “We have to start thinking about what this means... This is exactly what South Africa did after they abolished apartheid... They disestablished the apartheid state. They disestablished the apartheid institutions. They ensured equal rights and democracy for all within the territory.” Dr. Jason Hickel is an economic anthropologist, author, and a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts.  He is Professor at the Institute for Environmental Science and Technology at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, Visiting Senior Fellow at the International Inequalities Institute at the London School of Economics, and Chair Professor of Global Justice and the Environment at the University of Oslo.  Health. Jason's research focuses on global political economy, inequality, and ecological economics, which are the subjects of his two most recent books: The Divide: A Brief Guide to Global Inequality and its Solutions (Penguin, 2017), and Less is More: How Degrowth Will Save the World (Penguin, 2020), which was listed by the Financial Times and New Scientist as a book of the year. @jasonhickel on Twitter 

Author and labor studies professor Eric Blanc talks about worker-led union organizing and why it is superior to the dominant model of staff-intensive unionism.“You just can't get the type of mass movement we need by relying on staff.   Even the best staff.” Eric lays out some features of worker-to-worker organizing: Workers are training other workers in the skills they need for a successful union drive. Workers are self-organizing before they affiliate with a union. As a result, the relationship between worker and union is more of a partnership; not a relationship of deference. Workers have decision-making power for the drive. They decide on strategy, tactics, even, perhaps, a political stance.  “One of the crucial turning points... that forced Starbucks to come to the bargaining table earlier this year, was the union came out for very strong stance around Palestine and solidarity with Gaza. “And it created this knockoff effect that ended up leading to a mass boycott that hurt Starbucks to the tune of 11 billion dollars.  And there's just no way that if workers hadn't been in the driving seat of this campaign, that they would have done such a risky thing very early on.” Political activists will take away a lot from this conversation.Eric Blanc is director of the Worker-to-Worker Collaborative and co-founder of the Emergency Workplace Organizing Committee. He is professor of labor studies at Rutgers University. He is also author of the substack Labor Politics, and author of the forthcoming monograph, "We Are the Union: How Worker-to-Worker Organizing is Revitalizing Labor and Winning Big" (UC Press, 2025) 

**Milestone 300! We dedicate this, the 300th weekly episode, to our loyal listeners, and we wish to recognize the valiant work of our underpaid podcast crew – correction: our unpaid podcast crew – who have put in thousands of hours editing audio, correcting transcripts, writing show notes, creating artwork, and posting promos on social media. To have the next 300 episodes delivered to your inbox as soon as they’re released, subscribe at realprogressives.substack.com  Project Censored has been a valuable resource for Macro N Cheese. This week, sociologist Andy Lee Roth talks with Steve about information gatekeeping by big tech through their use of AI algorithms to stifle diverse voices.  The discussion highlights historical and current instances of media censorship and looks at the monopolization of news distribution by corporate giants like Google, Facebook, and Twitter.   In an economic system that is fully privatized, trustworthy journalism is another casualty. News, which should be treated as a public good, is anything but.   Andy Lee Roth is associate director of Project Censored, a nonprofit that promotes independent journalism and critical media literacy education. He is the coauthor of The Media and Me (2022), the Project’s guide to critical media literacy for young people, and “Beyond Fact-Checking” (2024), a teaching guide about news frames and their power to shape our understanding of the world. Roth holds a PhD in sociology from the University of California, Los Angeles, and a BA in sociology and anthropology from Haverford College. His research and writing have been published in a variety of outlets, including Index on Censorship, In These Times, YES! Magazine, The Progressive, Truthout, Media Culture & Society, and the International Journal of Press/Politics. During 2024-2025 his current work on Algorithmic Literacy for Journalists is supported by a fellowship from the Reynolds Journalism Institute.  projectcensored.org  @ProjectCensored on Twitter 

**Our Substack brings every new episode of this podcast as well timely alerts about our book clubs and webinars and reminders for Tuesday night’s gatherings of Macro ‘n Chill. All this and more, straight to your inbox. Subscribe now: realprogressives.substack.com Recently, Steve appeared with host Sean St. Heart on Coup Save America, a weekly podcast committed to breaking through political rhetoric and focusing our attention on the core problems affecting our nation. The episode’s title was Exploring Modern Monetary Theory with Steve Grumbine, but of course it’s almost impossible to limit an MMT conversation to macroeconomics alone.From the Coup Save America show notes: “’Are Progressives like 8-bit robots walking into walls when it comes to understanding economics?’ “Today we welcome special guest Steve Grumbine, founder and CEO of the nonprofits Real Progressives and Real Progress in Action. Steve is here to tell us how Modern Monetary Theory could benefit the working class American – and why it doesn’t. If you think a podcast on economics will be dry and dull, you’ve never heard Steve’s animated and passionate viewpoints on the subject. “Steve and Sean start the episode by reflecting upon the most recent presidential debate, then Steve launches right into the truth about our nation’s economy. While explaining the term “austerity” as it relates to macroeconomic models, Steve dispels the myth that if a government spends money on its people, it will cause inflation. We learn about the history of the Federal Reserve and how it works, what the federal deficit actually means, and what taxes really are and why they exist. Steve teaches us the difference between a ‘currency user’ and a ‘currency issuer,’ along with explaining how inflation works and why he hates using the term Modern Monetary Theory. “What would an idealistic economic system look like? It comes down to understanding class, power, and the average working man’s lack of agency. As progressives, we sabotage our own agenda by not understanding how economics work. Steve describes our movement’s ignorance as a ‘self-inflicted gunshot wound to the junk,’ and he tries to clear up some of the more common misunderstandings. He talks about the history of capitalism and how the system is now eating itself alive. When you pay interest rates, where does that money go? Is the middle class even a real thing? Steve attests that Modern Monetary Theory could contribute to fixing our society’s problems, but MMT can’t do it alone. How do we make our progressive goals actionable and not just theoretical? Why do progressives go to sleep whenever Democrats are in power rather than demanding real change? “Steve does a brilliant ‘Trumper’ impression as he explains how we need to create working class awareness. We (as progressives) need to accept that Medicare can’t work on a state-by-state level, and Steve calls out our dreams of a Universal Basic Income as being ‘batshit, bullshit crazy’ (although there is still hope in the idea of Universal Basic Services). So, how do we solve our economic problems? Listen to learn about ‘outside the nine dots,’ ‘creating dual power,’ and how ‘education and awakening are two different things.’ “Other topics include: Giving Biden credit for the CHIPS Act, price gauging during the pandemic, ‘Dude, Where’s My Car,’ and the economic theories of Clara E. Mattei and Jason Hickel.”  Coup Save America is a weekly talk show hosted by Sean St. Heart that plants the mental seeds of social change by inciting a politically progressive

If NIMBY is the classist rejection of affordable housing ("Not in my back yard”), then YIMBY is sold as the progressive counter to it: “Yes, in my back yard; because I believe affordable housing should be widely available, even in my own neighborhood.” But of course, housing development has nothing to do with the needs of the poor or the working class. It has nothing to do with the public purpose. Steve’s guest, political economist David Fields, explains: “YIMBY is yes to housing in my backyard, but housing for developers to extract profit from land value.  So build as much as possible within a given area and, in the end, extract as much as possible through rent extraction and land value appreciation. It's not, in my view, yes to actual affordable housing in my backyard to house working class folks. No, it's yes to luxury skyscrapers, luxury this, luxury that. Build as cheaply as possible for vested interests to maximize gain.” YIMBY’s want us to believe that sheer quantity will bring prices down, because that’s how the market works.  Those who object are accused of NIMBYism. In addition,  “They're economically illiterate, they're economically stupid, they don't know, they don't pay attention, and they're not letting the magic do its magic. Which, anybody who knows a modicum of economics and knows that supply and demand is institutionally configurated - not natural  - should be flabbergasted and say, how did this get to be so popular, so celebrated?  Well, there are vested interests involved.” The episode explores the misleading narratives of YIMBYism and compares the market-driven approach to housing to trickle-down economics, emphasizing the constructed scarcity and profit motives behind urban planning. David points out the misuse of economic models like the Marshallian Cross, highlighting flaws in the market logic often used to justify YIMBY policies.  David and Steve talk about the broader neoliberal agenda of privatization and deregulation, and its stranglehold on government policies. Awareness and organization are needed to combat systemic class inequality in housing and beyond. David Fields is from a critical realist and genetic structuralist ontology and epistemology. His work centers on the intricacies concerning the interactions of foreign exchanges and capital flows, with economic growth, fiscal and monetary policy and distribution, whereby critical attention is paid to the notion of endogenous money. He also delves into the political economy of regional development to study patterns with respect to the nature of housing, social stratification, and community planning. @ProfDavidFields on Twitter

The titans of capital aren’t just the obscenely wealthy. They are the directors of transnational finance companies; they manage the money of the obscenely wealthy.Steve’s guest, political sociologist Peter Phillips, is the author of Titans of Capital: How Concentrated Wealth Threatens Humanity. The titans, he says, have doubled their AUM (assets under management) in the past 5 years.“There's only 117 of them and they manage $50 trillion of capital. That $50 trillion is the core –– almost half of the free-floating capital in the world. And that is what the US calls a vital interest. So, when the US says we have vital interests in the world, that's what they mean.“And that's why we have military bases everywhere in the world, because these investors are everywhere. And any rivalries are undermined by our intelligence agencies, by the government, by military whenever possible. So, it just happens that governments work on behalf of capital.”So, if you’re wondering why the US has military interests in Ukraine or Gaza. Look to the titans, whose firms are investing in the defense industry. They profit off of warWhile the titans are massively increasing the wealth of the top .05 percent of the world’s population, over 20,000 people die each day from starvation and easily curable diseases. While the ruling class and their media mouthpieces insist that capitalism is going to save the world and money will trickle down...“It's not. It's exactly the opposite. People are dying daily. There are 700 million people who live in extreme poverty in the world. And extreme poverty means you're living on $2.15 a day. That's the UN set level for extreme poverty.Steve and Peter discuss ways in which the titans are able to bend policy to their own purposes. They mention the role of groups like the Trilateral Commission and the Council on Foreign Relations.The episode also compares the approaches of the US and China, illustrating China's success in alleviating extreme poverty through state-driven economic strategies and how the US tries to spin China as a threat.Steve and Peter talk about the need for revolutionary social movements to challenge the entrenched capitalist structures and demand wealth redistribution, using the insights of MMT to spur new thinking about alternative economic possibilities.Peter Phillips is a Professor of Political Sociology at Sonoma State University since 1994, former Director of Project Censored 1996 to 2010 and President of Media Freedom Foundation 2003 to 2017.

Steve’s guests are Charles Derber and Yale Magrass, authors of Who Owns Democracy: The Real Deep State and the Struggle Over Class and Caste in America. The concept of the deep state has been employed by different political ideologies, most recently the right under Trump. But its existence is real, and its service to the ruling class can be traced back to the founding of the US. Among other ideas, Charles and Yale stress the distinction between shallow democracy and the real thing. From their book’s abstract: “Large corporations, Wall Street, and other sectors of the capitalist class outsource day-to-day governance to the mainstream political parties, which can compete vigorously and create a credible veneer of civil liberties and electoral democracy, disguising and legitimating the deep state. But it is a “shallow democracy,” since the deep state sets boundaries on policies and choices to serve itself. It also denies a universal franchise and obstructs the voting rights of people of color, the poor, and other communities threatening to the deep state. Moreover, the deep state constrains civic governance in the workplace and community, denying virtually all working people democratic control over their economic and social life.” The episode’s conversation examines a historical and contemporary concept of caste in the US, which some of our listeners may find surprising. The discussion also covers contradictions within the capitalist class, the impact of the military-industrial complex, and the potential implications of the upcoming election. Charles Derber, Professor of Sociology at Boston College, is a public sociologist and life-long activist who writes about structural and cultural analysis of capitalism, public goods, the environment, and social movements seeking transformational change, He is the author of twenty-eight books. Yale Magrass is a Chancellor Professor of Sociology at University of Massachusetts-Dartmouth. He is the author/co-author of nine books, most co-authored with Charles Derber, and 80 articles. His work focuses upon how militaristic capitalism distorts everyday life as it promotes inequality, bullying, environmental devastation, and war.

When people reject the concept of degrowth are they suggesting society continue to allow capital to ravage the earth? Are they saying the countries of the global North should continue exploiting and extracting from the global South? Are they pushing for more growth? Steve’s guest, Erin Remblance is an Australian researcher and activist who was spurred into action six years ago when the IPCC released their special report on global warming of 1.5°C. Since then, Erin has been creating courses, events, and materials that address the crises and work toward solutions. Erin and Steve discuss degrowth, a planned reduction in energy and material throughput to maintain ecological balance. (Throughput, for those unfamiliar with the term, is defined as “the amount of material or items passing through a system or process.”) The episode goes into the systemic issues of capitalism, which increasingly commodifies all areas of our lives in its relentless pursuit of growth. “The gross national product does not allow for the health of our children, the quality of their education or the joy of their play. It does not include the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages, the intelligence of our public debate or the integrity of our public officials. It measures neither our wit nor our courage, neither our wisdom nor our learning, neither our compassion nor our devotion to our country. It measures everything in short, except that which makes life worthwhile.” Robert F. Kennedy, 1968, included in Erin’s slide presentation, An Introduction to Degrowth Follow Erin Remblance and find her work on LinkedIn, Substack, and Twitter: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erin-remblance/ https://erinremblance.substack.com/ https://twitter.com/remblance_erin https://the-healthy-habits-accelerator.circle.so/c/start-here/the-rules

**Find a transcript of each week’s episode on our Substack, where we also offer links to resources discussed in the interview. Subscribe now at https://realprogressives.substack.com/ Daniel Conceição is back to discuss the social damage of rentier capitalism and the potential to address it through the insights of Modern Monetary Theory. Rentier capitalism derives profit from ownership and manipulation of assets rather than through productive activity. While industrial capitalism also creates inequality, rentier capitalism, or rent seeking, exacerbates the division.  State-controlled money creation could nullify some of the speculative advantage of rentiers by directly funding critical public services, such as housing and healthcare. It may not be the ultimate answer, but it’s worth looking at. Daniel and Steve discuss the importance of overcoming mainstream economic fallacies that serve the interests of the financial elite. Daniel Negreiros Conceição did his undergraduate studies in Economics at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro in Brazil and his postgraduate studies at UMKC (under Professors Wray, Kelton, et al). He is a professor of macroeconomics and public finance at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro. He helped create the Institute for Functional Finance and Development (iffdbrasil.org),  and he helps run the Brazilian Modern Money Network (https://mmtbrasil.com/) aimed at producing more easily accessible material for teaching MMT to the wider public.  @stopthelunacy on Twitter 

**Join us Tuesday evenings for Macro ‘n Chill, an informal gathering where we listen to and discuss this podcast. Register here for our September 10th session https://events.teams.microsoft.com/event/29d4cc27-0123-4885-aaa8-6ff95947498d@7d53fbd0-6b43-4143-9400-6b0b36a25e55 Steve’s guest is Nolan Higdon, an author and expert in media literacy. They discuss surveillance in education, which Higdon covers in his book, co-authored with Allison Butler, Surveillance Education: Navigating the Conspicuous Absence of Privacy in Schools.Surveillance capitalism, which emerged in the late 20th century, profits from datamining, largely without public awareness. Nolan emphasizes the increased intrusion into schools, particularly following changes to FERPA laws in 2012 allowing private tech companies to collect and use student data. The discussion highlights the false sense of security offered by the surveillance tools as well as the biases ingrained in AI used in education.The topic takes on special significance when considered along with the broader implications for society, including the erosion of democracy and the intensification of neoliberal ideology that prioritizes profit over public welfare.Nolan Higdon is a founding member of the Critical Media Literacy Conference of the Americas, Project Censored National Judge, author, and lecturer at Merrill College and the Education Department at University of California, Santa Cruz. Higdon’s areas of concentration include podcasting, digital culture, news media history, propaganda, and critical media literacy.  He is the author of The Anatomy of Fake News: A Critical News Literacy Education (2020); Let’s Agree to Disagree: A Critical Thinking Guide to Communication, Conflict Management, and Critical Media Literacy (2022); The Media And Me: A Guide To Critical Media Literacy For Young People (2022); and the forthcoming Surveillance Education: Navigating the conspicuous absence of privacy in schools (Routledge). Higdon is a regular source of expertise for CBS, NBC, The New York Times, and The San Francisco Chronicle.Find his work on Substack: nolanhigdon.substack.com @NolanHigdonCML on Twitter @ProjectCensored 

Macro N Cheese brings you another twist. A couple of months ago, Steve appeared as a guest on 1Dime Radio in a two-part series that we’re now presenting as a single episode.  Tony has been on our podcast several times, now Steve is on his turf. The result is a productive meeting of the minds. He and Steve both view the world through a Marxist lens, and they both agree Marxists need MMT.   The discussion goes into the American Revolution as they consider the possibility of democracy in a modern capitalist system. They examine bourgeois control over politics and economics. They look at the limitations of capitalism in meeting society’s vital problems and talk about the devastating effects of privatization. They compare a UBI to a program of universal basic services and agree there’s no contest.   Tony runs the YouTube channel "1Dime" and the podcast 1Dime Radio. On his main channel, 1Dime does video essays and mini-documentaries that involve the political economy, history, geopolitics, leftist theory, and various socio-political topics. 1Dime is known most for his videos involving MMT and Marxian thought, such as "The Problem With Taxing The Rich" and "Why Billionaires Prefer Democrats."  Check out his YouTube channel, 1Dime and his podcast, 1Dime Radio, on Apple, Spotify, and most podcast platforms.  @1DimeOfficial on Twitter 

Let us never become immune to shock and outrage over the US government’s failure to guarantee its citizens a safe clean water supply. We must be outraged by the power that private players hold over us all with the blessings and collusion of officials whose titles suggest they should protect us. Investigative journalist Jordan Chariton has been reporting on the Flint water crisis for nearly a decade. His newly published book, We the Poisoned, examines how systemic governmental failures, abetted by municipal, state, and federal authorities, and complicit media, combined to allow the Flint catastrophe. Jordan talks to Steve about the devastating effects of neoliberal privatization schemes, driven by financial incentives and aided by powerful interests including Wall Street, which resulted in the use of untreated water from the polluted Flint River in a city already suffering from decades of economic decline. Privatization transformed public utilities into profit-driven entities, neglecting critical safety and quality controls. President Obama's inadequate federal response and successive Michigan administrations' culpability resulted in a combination of political negligence and deliberate actions all to avoid setting a costly precedent of government intervention. Lest we relax into the belief that such crises are incidental and rare, be warned. Privatization is on an upward trajectory. The people’s health and safety interfere with profits and in the US, profit reigns supreme. This episode offers a detailed portrayal of environmental racism, the perils of unchecked corporate power, and how both government and media support these atrocities. Jordan Chariton, Status Coup CEO, is an independent progressive journalist who has worked inside and outside the belly of the corporate media beast for over a decade. He worked at Fox, MSNBC, and TYT, before starting Status Coup. He is the author of the newly published book, “We the Poisoned: Exposing the Flint Water Crisis Cover-up and the Poisoning of 100,000 Americans.” @JordanChariton on Twitter @StatusCoup

The 2024 fictional film “Civil War” shows an America that has been fractured into armed factions. It’s not the dystopian fantasy that interests us here, however, it’s the collapse of the currency! In the movie, the US dollar has lost its value, like the fate of Confederate money after the (real) US Civil War. With his imagination piqued by the film, Steve asked Brett Scott, author and monetary theorist, to help us think about the dynamics of commerce, currency, and systemic forces in times of societal collapse and global capitalism. Brett and Steve look at historical cases like Zimbabwe's hyperinflation and Ireland's banking strike. They discuss barter systems, mutual credit, dollarization, and informal credits. The conversation delves into broader themes of pre- and post-capitalist markets, moral logics within economies, and the systemic nature of global capitalism. Highlighting the inadequacy of simplistic elite-blaming narratives, they advocate for understanding economic interdependence and discuss Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) as a counter to austerity. Brett Scott is an author, journalist, and activist, who explores the intersections between money systems, finance, and digital technology. He’s the author of The Heretics Guide to Global Finance: Hacking the Future of Money. His latest book is Cloudmoney: Cash, Cards, Crypto, and the War for Our Wallets. Find more of his work at https://alteredstatesof.money/ brettscott.substack.com @Suitpossum on Twitter

“I was still a true believer, but doubts were starting to creep in at a certain point when you saw a large segment of our coalition cheering the brutal death of Rachel Corrie under a Caterpillar D9 bulldozer. And then, you know, a month later, cheering for the death of Tom Hurndall who was killed protecting a Palestinian child from Israeli snipers and was shot in the head by an expert marksman looking through a scope.” Jonathan Kadmon is on the leadership team of Real Progressives and writes for the website. He also helps put out this podcast. Today, however, he is talking to Steve about his vast knowledge of Zionism, Palestine, and US support for Israel. Jonathan was raised in a Republican household and became a passionate supporter of Israel during his college years, when he was given training and taken on trips by powerful players in the Israel lobby. After growing up a Jew in the South, he now became part of a powerful community and embraced it with pride. He talks of his experiences and describes his increasing discomfort as discrepancies between fact and propaganda became too great to ignore. Steve, a vocal critic of the administration’s role in the current genocide in Gaza, is regularly attacked for his views. Jonathan, having studied in Israel and been trained by AIPAC, says: “That stuff bounces off me like I was wearing body armor... I'm like, oh yeah, you're going to tell me I'm a self-hating Jew? Are you kidding me? My resume and my credentials here probably outstrip anything you have. And the fact of the matter is, I do this because I am a Jew and I'm proud of being a Jew. And I'm proud of my history and my heritage. I learned the lessons of my history and my heritage.” The discussion goes into historical and political manipulation by Zionist organizations to blur the lines between Jewish identity and support for Israel, the erasure of Palestinian history, and the media and political complicity in perpetuating the Zionist narrative. The episode includes profound insights into Holocaust education, which is intentionally designed to emphasize the trauma and neglect the political economy. Jonathan Kadmon is on the leadership team at Real Progressives, where he is a writer and a co-host of the weekly discussion group, Macro ‘n Chill. @JonathanKadmon on X

In June, Real Progressives hosted a webinar with Carlos García Hernández on his book, Fiat Socialism: Achieving the Goals of Socialism Through Modern Monetary Theory. After hearing his Macro N Cheese interview last year, we wanted to open the door for our volunteers to ask questions and engage with Carlos on this topic. He is an important voice applying the insights of MMT to socialist theory. “‘Fiat socialism’ is my name for an open and prosperous society ruled by the principles of the Modern Monetary Theory and functional finance.” In talking about his book, Carlos laid out the goals of fiat socialism: Full employment Full and prudent use of material resources The guarantee of the five essentials to every citizen: food, housing, clothing, health services, and education Social security at all major exposed points in the social structure (eg, old age, sickness, accident, temporary unemployment, and childbearing) Labor standards, to be assured by labor unions This episode includes his presentation followed by Q&A with the event’s attendees. Carlos García Hernández is the founder and director of Lola Books, a publishing house that has introduced MMT to Spanish and German readers. He is the author of Fiat Socialism: Achieving the Goals of Socialism through Modern Monetary Theory. @Carlos_G_H_ on Twitter

According to Mischa Geracoulis, of Project Censored, media is a public good and journalism is a public service. “Being able to access information, being able to join in, participate in the free flow of information, to have an opinion, to formulate a stance –that is actually considered a human right, under Article 19 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights.” It only follows that censorship is a violation of human rights. Project Censored defines censorship more broadly than a government’s control over the media. It is the suppression of information, whether purposefully or not, by any method – (including) bias, omission, underreporting, or even self-censorship by the reporter or publisher. Steve and Mischa discuss the urgency of getting the public to understand the genocide in Gaza, and crucial for Americans to see their government’s role in it. They look at the challenges faced by independent press, as well as special problems of news deserts. They also talk about the need for media literacy while much of the public relies on social media, where algorithms play a suppressive role. Mischa Geracoulis is a media literacy expert, writer, and educator, serving as Project Censored’s curriculum development coordinator. Mischa is on the editorial boards of the Censored Press and the Markaz Review. @MGeracoulis, @ProjectCensored on Twitter

Steve’s guest this week is Dirk Ehnts, a lecturer and authorwho specializes in modern monetary theory (MMT). They discuss Dirk's new book,"A Simple Guide to the Monetary System," which aims to simplify theoften complex concepts of MMT. They discuss the significance of the Copernican turn to MMT,which refers to the shift in perspective that occurred during the COVID-19pandemic. Dirk explains that the massive increase in government spending andthe lack of inflationary effects challenged conventional economic theories thathad previously dismissed MMT. Dirk explains the theory behind inflation targeting and howit has failed to deliver on its promises of price stability and fullemployment. He also highlights the role of trade policy and income inequalityin shaping economic outcomes, pointing out that these factors are oftenoverlooked in favor of focusing solely on interest rates and inflation.The conversation shifts to the rise of the BRICScountries (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa) and the geopoliticalbattles that have influenced international trade. They discuss the idea oflosing faith in the US dollar as the primary world reserve currency and thepotential impact on global trade. Dirk emphasizes that the public needs to understand howmoney and resources interact in order to find solutions to problems likeclimate change. He believes that as more people become aware of MMT and itspotential policies, there will be a demand for change.Dirk Ehnts is a German heterodox economist.He is one of the leading proponents of Modern Monetary Theory in Europe. Ehntsis a member of the standing field committee History of Economic Thought of theGerman economists association. Every summer since 2016 Ehnts has held a courseon MMT at the Summer School of Maastricht University. In February 2019, heorganized the 1st European MMT Conference. He is also a lecturer at the MMTsummer school at the University of Poznan in Poland.

When corporations are guilty of poisoning the population, it is newsworthy. When state and local governments are complicit, it is newsworthy.  Yet the US media refuses to cover some of the most scandalous and tragic stories of our time, despite overwhelming evidence of corporate and government culpability.Jordan Chariton, CEO of Status Coup, has many years of experience working for both mainstream and independent news organizations. He and Steve discuss the media’s role in perpetuating the distorted narrative. If they’re not ignoring the facts, they’re misrepresenting them.  Jordan talks about his continuing coverage of the Flint water crisis and the East Palestine train derailment. He describes the case of Graphic Packaging International in Kalamazoo, Michigan, where a paper mill has been releasing deadly gases into a poor black community for decades. Despite complaints and environmental violations, the plant has not been shut down.He finds himself waging war on two fronts; after digging up the truth he struggles to get other media to help spread the information. He and Steve highlight the gatekeeping role of social media algorithms and clickbait in determining what news gets attention.Jordan also mentions his upcoming book, "We the Poisoned," which exposes the Flint water crisis cover-up and the poisoning of 100,000 Americans.Jordan Chariton, Status Coup CEO, is an independent progressive journalist who has worked inside and outside the belly of the corporate media beast for over a decade. He worked at Fox, MSNBC, and TYT, before starting Status Coup.@JordanChariton on Twitter@StatusCoup 

**On Tuesday evening we’re gathering for a listening party and discussion of this episode of the podcast. Get the Zoom link here https://realprogressives.org/event/macro-n-chill-284/  If anyone still thinks adopting the Euro was a good idea, this episode should set you straight. Writer and journalist Thomas Fazi joins Steve to talk about the critical issues surrounding the European project, beginning with elite reaction to the recent election of Marine Le Pen in France, which Thomas calls a script that, as an Italian, he has seen play out many times: “And that is one where as soon as a “populist” or “anti-establishment” government comes into power, or has a good chance of coming to power, as Le Pen does now ... then the kind of democracy-proofing mechanisms of the European Union, and of the Euro, kick into action.” Markets begin selling off the bonds of the country in question, in this case France, because they’re said to be spooked by the election results. The mainstream media frames this as the market’s natural reaction to “irresponsible” politicians gaining power.  “But in fact, this is a very simplistic narrative, because, as MMT teaches us, it's the central bank that ultimately controls the interest rates on the government bonds...markets can only spook governments and countries, and can only put [financial] pressure on countries, so long as a central bank allows markets to do it.”  The European Central Bank has every interest in using financial markets to discipline governments, ensuring they don’t stray off the neoliberal path.  The discussion goes into the US role in European geopolitics, the importance of economic and industrial sovereignty, and the negative impacts of relying on imports and being subordinate to the US. They go into the purpose of the bombing of the Nord Stream gas pipeline, the petrodollar system, and the destruction of Ukraine. They also question the MMT community’s disturbing reluctance to speak out on geopolitics, especially the ongoing genocide in Gaza.    Thomas Fazi is a critically-acclaimed writer and journalist. His books include The Battle for Europe: How an Elite Hijacked a Continent — and How We Can Take It Back (Pluto Press, 2014), Reclaiming the State: A Progressive Vision of Sovereignty for a Post-Neoliberal World (co-authored with Bill Mitchell; Pluto Press, 2017) and The Covid Consensus: The Global Assault on Democracy and the Poor — A Critique from the Left (co-authored with Toby Green; 2023). He is the co-director of Standing Army (2010), an award-winning feature-length documentary on US military bases featuring Gore Vidal and Noam Chomsky; His articles have appeared in numerous online and printed publications. He is a columnist for the British magazine UnHerd and a contributing editor for the American magazine Compact.  @battleforeurope on Twitter 

** For a full transcript of this and every episode of the podcast, go to our website, where you will also find an “Extras” section with information and links to resources discussed in the episode. realprogressives.org/macro-n-cheese-podcast/  At Macro N Cheese we’ve been having an ongoing conversation about the need for radical change in the labor movement and the rise of class struggle unionism.  Traven Leyshon is president of the Green Mountain Central Labour Council and part of the leadership team of the Vermont State Labour Council. Traven, who has over five decades of labor organizing experience, talks to Steve about the pushback from national labor institutions against Vermont's newly elected progressive leadership and what it represents for the movement. The episode delves into the historical context of labor shrinkage and addresses the practical challenges of organizing in a neoliberal economy dominated by corporate money. He emphasizes the need for a participatory democracy within unions, contrasting this approach with the dominant model of business unionism, where members often feel disconnected and disengaged. Traven and Steve highlight the need for workers to have a deeper knowledge of how the system operates in order to fight back against the capitalist order. They also touch on issues such as the need for a job guarantee and the impact of austerity measures on working-class people.  In the face of climate crisis and continual economic crises, building a powerful, inclusive labor movement is more urgent than ever. Current president of the Green Mountain Central Labor Council, part of the leadership team of the Vermont State Labor Council, AFL CIO member of OPEIU 153, Teamster truck driver for Teamsters for a Democratic Union, and proud rank and file UAW Audi worker.  @TravenL on Twitter 

What happens to a nation when its leaders get in bed with the IMF? In this episode, Steve and his guest Daniel Kostzer look at the case of Argentina under President Javier Milei. Daniel is the Chief Economist of the International Trade Union Confederation. They discuss the recent legislative wins by Milei's government, which have sparked mass protests and civil unrest in the country. The reform bill passed by the Argentine Senate includes sweeping austerity measures, privatization, and labor rights cuts. The conversation delves into the factors contributing to the high inflation rate in Argentina, including the country's debt with the IMF, the impact of the pandemic, and external conditions such as the Ukraine-Russian war and drought. Daniel explains that Milei's approach to the economy is characterized by a belief in dollarization. They also discuss the role of the IMF in Argentina and its pro-market, pro-capitalist ideology. They talk about the historical pattern of accumulation in the country, with a constant pendulum swing between the export-oriented neoliberal model and the industrial autonomous development model. Without a clear resolution of this conflict, Argentina will continue to struggle. However, they also highlight the resilience and fighting spirit of the Argentine society, with a strong union density and a comprehensive system of social protection. Daniel Kostzer is the Chief Economist of the International Trade Union Confederation (ITUC-CSI) based in Brussels. He was the senior regional wage specialist for Asia and the Pacific at the INWORK Branch (Inclusive Labour Markets, Labour Relations and Working Conditions), International Labour Organization. Daniel does research in Labour Economics, especially wages and income distribution, poverty alleviation, and the linkages with the broad economic issues. @dkostzer on Twitter 

Dan Kovalik, author and human rights lawyer, joins Steve to talk about his new book, The Case for Palestine: Why it Matters and Why You Should Care. The conversation goes into the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the concept of settler colonialism, and the current situation in Gaza.They criticize the US government's support for Israel and the lack of accountability for the ongoing genocide. They blame the corporate media for not adequately informing the public about these issues, allowing for a privileged perspective that ignores the suffering.  They touch on the role of social media in raising awareness of the atrocities, discuss the need for the American public to unify around principles of peace & to call out the US for war crimes and also talk about the attempts to silence criticism of genocide by labeling it as anti-Semitic or terrorist sympathizing.Dan Kovalik is a labor and human rights lawyer and peace activist. He is the author of the recently released book, The Case for Palestine: Why it Matters and Why You Should Care. Some his other books include The Plot to Control the World: How the US Spent Billions to Change the Outcome of Elections Around the World, and The Plot to Scapegoat Russia: How the CIA and the Deep State have Conspired to Vilify Russia@danielmkovalik on Twitter

In this episode, Steve has a conversation with Tschäff (pronounced “Jeff”) Reisberg, the secretary of the Charlotte Metrolina Labor Council and a professional flight attendant, about the vital role of the labor movement through the lens of MMT.  They look at the intersection of movement building and labor's role, emphasizing that real economic advocacy should lead to tangible change. Steve contrasts this to the naivety of relying solely on voting within a captured oligarchic system.  They discuss historical and current labor struggles, touching on the need for transforming unions from business unionism to class struggle-oriented unions. Tschäff shares insights on the positive outcomes of recent labor actions which have revitalized union activity. They also talk about the importance of a job guarantee and consider how unions might engage with broader social movements, emphasizing solidarity and the power of labor to enact change by shutting down production. Tschäff Reisberg is not only an early proponent of MMT, but is secretary of the Charlotte Metrolina Labor Council, and an Association of Professional Flight Attendants member. He has been with the American Airlines Flight Attendants union in difficult and contentious times, including through Covid. This perspective has given Tschäff unique insights into the burgeoning labor movement we are experiencing today. 

**Each episode of Macro N Cheese has an “Extras” section filled with information and links to resources related to topics touched on in the interview. Go to https://realprogressives.org/macro-n-cheese-podcast/ where you will also find a full transcript of the episode. Steve Grumbine’s guest is Steve Hall, a Professor Emeritus of Criminology who has published in the fields of criminology, sociology, anthropology, history, economic history, political theory and philosophy. The discussion covers a range of political and economic issues, including class consciousness and unity among the working class in the US and Europe. They discuss the historical fear and suspicion of the working class by the political and economic elites. They talk about the impact of identity politics and the need for unity among the working class. They also touch on the influence of neoliberalism and the weaponization of identity struggles.  They highlight the disconnect between what is presented in the news and the needs of the working class. They look at the concept of natural laws in economic models and how they often ignore the role of human decisions. The conversation ends with a discussion on the limitations of the current political system and the need for agency and alternative avenues of power for the working class.  Steve Hall is a Professor Emeritus of Criminology. He worked at the Universities of Teesside, Northumbria and Durham. He is the author of Criminal Identities and Consumer Culture, and Theorizing Crime and Deviance, and co-author of numerous others.  @ProfHall1955 on Twitter 

Bryce Greene was recently arrested during campus protests in support of Palestine. Steve, who believes ignoring the slaughter in Gaza is akin to ignoring the holocaust, invited him to describe his experience and insights into the student encampments and the anti-Zionist movement in the US. Bryce is a writer and organizer currently working towards his PhD in Informatics. His work focuses on media and geopolitical analysis. He emphasizes the importance of dismantling the myths and narratives surrounding American support for Israel and the oppression of Palestinians. He believes that studying Palestine brings understanding of the broader forces and processes that define American Empire. He goes into the impact of social media and alternative platforms in challenging the traditional narratives and gatekeepers that shape the public’s understanding. Or misunderstanding. They talk about the brutality of the Israeli state, including land grabs, settlements, and military violence against Palestinians. Bryce expresses frustration with the manipulation and gaslighting that occurs when the Holocaust is used to justify these atrocities. They also touch on the topic of university complicity in supporting Israel, criticizing universities for partnering with companies that enable genocide. Bryce discusses the use of counterterrorism measures against peaceful protesters and the surveillance of activists. He warns of the growing infrastructure for surveillance and repression, which could have serious consequences for organizing and activism. Bryce Greene is a writer, student and organizer based in Indiana. His work focuses on media and geopolitical analysis. He has appeared in Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting, as well as many other venues. He is currently pursuing a PhD in Informatics. @TheGreeneBJ on Twitter 

**On Tuesday evening we’re holding a listening party and informal discussion of this episode. Join us for Macro ‘n Chill. Register here: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZArcuqsqD0tH92MxVmJIqj4PHtojQGgFl2l Grassroots political organizer Jay Ponti talks with Steve about his book, "Be the Revolution: How Occupy Wall Street and the Bernie Sanders Movement Reshaped American Politics." Jay maintains that there’s a vibrant network of people doing great work that isn’t covered by corporate media.  “Politicians are not heroes who can save us. We have to save ourselves. That's what the Occupy Wall Street movement taught me. We can't rely on someone else to make the changes we want to see. We have to get organized, we have to get active, and we have to fight for our own rights.” Jay shares his experiences in Occupy Wall Street and the motivations behind it. He describes how the movement emerged as a response to the 2008 financial crisis and the fraudulent practices of financial institutions. He also touches on the Bank Exit campaign, which aimed to divest from banks funding the Dakota Access Pipeline. He speaks of the challenges and successes of the campaign and its connection to the broader movement for social and economic justice. Steve and Jay discuss the need for grassroots movements and an inside-outside strategy to bring about real change. Jay Ponti is a grassroots political organizer, trainer, and consultant who has participated in some of the most important social movements of the last decade, including Occupy Wall Street, Standing Rock, and Bernie Sanders’s two presidential campaigns. He is the author of "Be the Revolution: How Occupy Wall Street and the Bernie Sanders Movement Reshaped American Politics," Find his work at jayponti.com @jayponti on Twitter 

Aaron Good, a political scientist and historian, talks with Steve about the US political system and power dynamics. They explore the roles of the deep state and oligarchy in policy-making and the suppression of democracy.“This is a very low point in the history of democracy. Perhaps the lowest point ever, if you put it in a historical context. The United States was never really a democracy. Democracy isn't so much an either/or proposition, I would say it's a continuum ...“Even in the generic sense of political rights and universal suffrage and basic 'one person, one vote' rules, the US comes up short. The electoral college is a ridiculous system. There are barriers to getting on the ballot.”The conversation includes a discussion on the role of empire and the pursuit of global dominance in shaping US politics and policies. Aaron argues that the US prioritizes its imperial ambitions over domestic issues, resulting in a loss of political power for most of the population.Aaron Good holds a doctorate in political science from Temple University. He is the author of American Exception: Empire and the Deep State. Find his podcast at patreon.com/americanexceptionFollow Aaron’s work at americanexception.substack.com/@Aaron_Good_ on Twitter

In a previous episode of this podcast, David Van Deusen spoke about the radical ten-point program adopted by the Vermont State Labor Council, AFL-CIO. This time, he and Steve discuss David’s new book, Insurgent Labour: The Vermont AFL-CIO from 2017 to 2023.They look at the importance of working-class unity, the need for unions to be more democratic and inclusive, and the need for a new approach to labor organizing. They touch on the problems of racial oppression, police unions, global labor movements, healthcare, and the futility in relying on the political parties. David's book provides insights and lessons from their experiences in Vermont, offering a potential roadmap for a more effective and inclusive labor movement in the US and abroad.They discuss the global race to the bottom and international solidarity of the working class.“We can't have the US government foreign policy defining our foreign policy as a labor movement. We need to look for those groups that are truly engaged with struggles against the capitalists, against the elite, against the billionaires. And we need to make one on one direct relationships with them and support them where we can ... We should be reaching our hands out as a labor movement, as a US labor movement, saying 'what can we do to support you?' Because if they win there, they're going to set the example that could spread to other regions of the Middle East, Europe, and aspects of the United States. And shouldn't we be supporting democracies, especially those that actively invite labor activists, labor unions, to be part of the molding of the society that they labor within?”Check out the other interview with David:https://realprogressives.org/podcast_episode/episode-186-the-power-of-organizing-with-david-van-deusen/David Van Deusen is a longtime organizer and militant union leader. He served two terms as President of the Vermont AFL-CIO (2019-2021 & 2021-2023) and is part of the working class left United! Slate. He is also a member of Democratic Socialists of America and a past member of Anti-Racist Action. His new book from PM Press is called Insurgent Labor: The Vermont AFL-CIO 2017-2023.

When most of us think about bail, we focus on the financial burden it presents to the accused. This week’s guest is Jeffrey J. Clayton, Executive Director of the American Bail Coalition. He talks to Steve about the complicated anti-democratic trap that is our criminal justice system.Jeff explains that across the US there are plans in place to eliminate bail. (One would think that’s good news. One would be wrong.) In reality, these plans result in greater violations of civil liberties. Bail is being replaced by pre-trial incarceration and risk assessment tools using computer algorithms (AKA profiling?)In his dissent in United States v. Salerno, Justice Thurgood Marshall warned that we are quickly moving to a criminal justice system where "a person innocent of any crime may be jailed indefinitely." Marshall called the bail system a shortcut to conviction.Steve and Jeff discuss the most obvious ways to address crime – by providing jobs, housing, and education or training. Some caught up in the criminal justice system need recovery treatment. In the US, those healthcare services have become punitive. Jeff refers to them as the dragnet of the state.Steve speaks of addressing the material conditions that contribute to criminal behavior. He brings up the concept of a federal job guarantee and talks about resource allocation and macroeconomic justice.Jeffrey J. Clayton serves as the Executive Director of the American Bail Coalition (ABC). He holds a B.B.A. from Baylor University, an M.S. in Public Policy from the University of Rochester, N.Y., and a J.D. from the Sturm College of Law, University of Denver.@ambailcoalition on Twitter

**Check our website for upcoming events such as book clubs, RP Live webinars, and the Tuesday evening discussion group, Macro ‘n Chill. https://realprogressives.org/This week’s episode is the audio track of a recent webinar with historian Esha Krishnaswamy. Esha is now living in Russia to research and write a people’s history of the Soviet Union.The discussion begins with the story of the First World War and the Bolshevik Revolution. The formation of the USSR as a proletarian state shook the capitalist nations of the West to their core. As a result, the Soviet Union was regularly under threat economically, militarily, as well as propaganda warfare.Esha talks about the history of the Soviet Union and its ultimate dissolution against the will of the majority. She delves into the impact of its fall on various countries and the global economy. She looks at the shock doctrine years of Boris Yeltsin in the 1990s and the effects of such extreme austerity and privatization on the average citizens. She then goes into the Putin era and the move towards social democracy.Finally, she touches upon NATO, the IMF, and the war in Ukraine.Esha Krishnaswamy is a writer and media critic, whose focus is on history, foreign policy, and Modern Monetary Theory. She hosts Historic.ly and Late Nights with Lenin.Find her work at historicly/substack.com@eshaLegal on Twitter

“Assange is being targeted by the US government because he doesn't conform to the dominant culture of the US prestige media. He's not going to be invited to the White House Correspondents' Dinner. He's not going to be given a Pulitzer. He's not going to be treated as one of them.”Steve’s guest is journalist Kevin Gosztola, author of Guilty of Journalism: The Political Case Against Julian Assange. Kevin has been advocating for freedom of the press since the George W. Bush administration and the imperialist wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.Steve and Kevin discuss the lack of available unbiased information, particularly regarding events like the ongoing genocide in Gaza and the presidential election. They look at the collusion between mainstream media outlets and the government, the demonization of individuals who counter the mainstream narrative, and the targeting of journalists and newsrooms.They highlight the efforts of the US empire to prevent information from reaching the public and discuss the significance of the documents published by WikiLeaks. They also discuss Assange's current situation and the deterioration of his health.Kevin Gosztola is a journalist, press freedom advocate, and the author of Guilty of Journalism: The Political Case Against Julian Assange from Censored Press and Seven Stories Press. He publishes The Dissenter Newsletter at TheDissenter.org and has spent the past 10-15 years reporting on Assange, WikiLeaks, the war on whistleblowers, press freedom, and government secrecy.@kgosztola on Twitter

**RP Book Club is beginning a new series, Sunday April 7, 14, and 21, at 3pm ET/12pm PT. Register once for all three sessions. realprogressives.org/event/rp-book-club-the-communist-manifesto/2024-04-07L. Randall Wray talks with Steve about the concept of value in the context of MMT. Randy discusses the labor theory of value and the liquidity premise theory, saying both approaches are critical to understanding how money works in a capitalist economy.Randy looks at the historical development of economic thought and the neoclassical revolution of the 1870s, which aimed to prove that a free-market economy could reach equilibrium without considering money. He explains why this just isn’t so. He compares and contrasts the intentions and conclusions of Keynes and Marx. He emphasizes the need to look beyond surface phenomena and understand the structure of the capitalist economy to determine the value of money.The conversation also goes into the importance of the federal job guarantee in setting wages and stabilizing the value of labor.L. Randall Wray is a Professor of Economics at Bard College and Senior Scholar at the Levy Economics Institute.www.levyinstitute.org

A hundred years ago, John Maynard Keynes predicted we would see a massive expansion of growth and productivity under capitalism. Bingo. He got that right. He said this amazing efficiency would result in a shorter work week with far more leisure time for everyone. Oops. Not so much. The structure of capital ownership will never permit it.Bill Mitchell’s blog post, Keynes Was Wrong Because He Failed to Consider Class Conflict, was the inspiration for this episode. Bill talks with Steve about many of the truths about capitalism economists and historians get wrong, beginning with the idea that capitalism freed workers from the bonds of feudalism.Bill covers the social democratic politics of the postwar era and how the ruling elites then ensured that government would only serve as their agent. He and Steve take a critical look at the dangerous power of institutions like the World Bank and IMF. Bill explains why he supports degrowth instead of “green growth.”Bill believes progressives shouldn’t be working to reform the system; they must work to change it. Coming from the Marxian tradition, he says MMT is only part of the story.“Yes, it provides a first class lens into monetary operations but it doesn't have a theory of power. And you have to add that ideological layer for it to be, in my view, a purposeful framework for advancing systemic change. Just to have an MMT understanding provides you with no additional tools to work out systemic change.”Bill Mitchell is a Professor in Economics and Director of the Centre of Full Employment and Equity (CofFEE), at the University of Newcastle, NSW, Australia. He is also a professional musician and plays guitar with the Melbourne Reggae-Dub band – Pressure Drop. Follow his work on https://billmitchell.org/blog/@billy_blog on Twitter

This episode of Macro N Cheese is dedicated to Steve’s mom, Joan Grumbine. Her kindness, love, and unwavering dedication to her family and community will be deeply missed. May she rest in peace.In his first solo episode, our host and jefe, Steve Grumbine, recounts the story of his political transformation from conservative republican to passionate MMT advocate, to self-identified socialist.He begins the episode talking about his recent experience dealing with the medical system as his mother’s health declined. Both parents’ deaths illustrate the fact that a for-profit system cannot provide the kind of healthcare we need and deserve.Awareness of class discrepancy runs through his story as he develops an awareness of the need to combine MMT with an understanding of capitalism.It's impossible to separate Steve’s political development from his work on this podcast. Many of the guests affect him profoundly. In the episode he ties these insights together to create a radical and comprehensive worldview.Steve Grumbine is the founder and CEO of Real Progressives and Real Progress in Action. He is a project manager by profession.@sdgrumbine on Twitter

** Be sure to check the Real Progressives website’s calendar for upcoming events. On Sunday, March 17th at noon ET/9am PT, we’re hosting a webinar, RP Live with Esha Krishnaswamy: Putin’s Russia. On Tuesday evenings, 8pm ET/5pm PT, come to Macro ‘n Chill, where we listen to the most recent episode of this podcast and discuss it with the community. https://realprogressives.org/rp-events-calendar/ “Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon, in the sense that it is and can be produced only by a more rapid increase in the quantity of money than in output.” Milton Friedman This quote by the grandaddy of neoliberal economics is from 1963. Some in the mainstream have been dining out on it ever since. According to our guest, author and blogger Brian Romanchuk, neoclassical economics relies on mathematical models and fail to capture the complexity of real-world inflation. He highlights the importance of understanding the supply and demand dynamics in setting prices and explains that inflation can be influenced by factors such as supply chain shocks and changes in the labor market. Brian also points out that it’s not enough to blame inflation on corporate greed; after all, corporations are always driven to maximize profits. He mentions the Cantillon effect, which suggests that the first recipients of newly created money benefit from inflation as prices go up, while the poor and working class bear the brunt of higher prices down the road. Brian and Steve discuss inflation constraints on fiscal policy. Brian argues that while extreme fiscal policies could lead to inflation, most of the time, fiscal policy is relatively moderate and does not have a significant impact on inflation. They criticize the government for not trying to set prices and argue that the government often follows the private sector's lead, making things worse. Brian Romanchuk is the author of several books, including Modern Monetary Theory and the Recovery. He is the writer and publisher of bondeconomics.com. His writings can be found in his substack, The BondEconomics Newsletter. @RomanchukBrian on Twitter

The American people see through mainstream claims of “the greatest economy ever.” They are confronted by evidence to the contrary every day.Steve and his guest, economist Yeva Nersisyan, take a deep dive into the current US economy, looking at the repercussions of the high costs of education, healthcare, and housing.They discuss different perspectives on the causes of inflation and talk about Isabella Weber’s work on “sellers’ inflation” and its relationship to monopoly power. They argue that the drive for corporate profits, leading to abusive price-setting, has been the primary force behind inflation.They also talk about the effect of fiscal policy on income inequality, revealing politicians’ contempt for the working class.Yeva Nersisyan is an associate professor of economics at Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster, PA, and a research scholar at the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College.

** Reminder: You are invited to listen to and discuss this episode with friends from Real Progressives on Tuesday, March 5th. Find the Zoom link at https://realprogressives.org/rp-events-calendar/“If the soul is left in darkness, sins will be committed. The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but the one who causes the darkness.” — Victor HugoDaniel Conceição talks with Steve about Argentina’s economic immiseration under newly elected president Javier Milei.Milei’s aggressive cuts to public spending don’t address the root cause of inflation in Argentina. Because of the country’s dependency on the US dollar, it is mired in a foreign debt trap. Daniel and Steve highlight austerity policies bolstered by the macroeconomic illiteracy propagated by media and politicians (shout out to RFK, Jr).They discuss the current political landscape and touch upon topics such as genocide, neoliberalism, economic conditions, and the role of public spending in promoting prosperity.Daniel Conceição is an associate professor at the Unicamp Institute of Economics, a professor at the Institute of Research and Urban and Regional Planning (IPPUR) at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro (UFRJ), and one of the authors of the book “Modern Monetary Theory: The Key to an Economy at the Service of People”. He is formerly president of the executive board of Institute of Functional Finance for Development Brasil.@stopthelunacy on Twitter

**To discuss this episode among friends, come to our listening party, Macro ‘n Chill, on Tuesday February 27th at 8pm ET/5pm PT. For the link go to our Events Calendar https://realprogressives.org/rp-events-calendar“But fortunately for us, human nature is precisely the capacity to be creative; to imagine a different way of living together and to bring that into being through our conscious and deliberate actions by working together, by fighting for a different world against the class power that is interested in perpetuating things as they are. And so we can, through acting on the world to transform the world, we also transform ourselves. That's a basic principle of Marxist theory and Marxist politics. By acting on the world to change the world, we simultaneously transform ourselves through the act of struggle, to the act of building collective solidarity, we become different and we also make the world different.”Steve invited Stephen Maher for this interview to talk about some of the basic lessons of Marxism. While you may not agree with everything you hear in this episode, certain fundamentals of capitalism are beyond refute.The discussion explores the relationship between capital and the working class, and the concept of class struggle as the key to understanding US history of the past century, especially the postwar period and the development of neoliberalism. To truly make sense of it all we must look at some fundamental truths about capital. It is very fluid and dynamic. Capital is capable of continuously evolving and restructuring. In doing so, our social conditions change as well.They also discuss the challenges and obstacles in achieving socialism, the history of anti-communist sentiment in the US, the importance of class struggle unionism, and the need for grassroots organizing and building solidarity within the working class.Stephen Maher is an Assistant Professor of Economics at SUNY Cortland, and co-editor of The Socialist Register. He is the co-author of The Fall and Rise of American Finance: From J.P. Morgan to BlackRock with Scott Aquanno, and the author of Corporate Capitalism and the Integral State: General Electric and a Century of American Power.@SteveMaher18 on Twitter

** If you haven’t yet come to our Tuesday night listening party, this is the week to do so. Join the Real Progressives community as we dive in and discuss this episode. The registration link is posted on our Events Calendar prior to each Tuesday’s session — it’s usually up by Saturday. Look for Macro ‘n Chill. https://realprogressives.org/rp-events-calendar/This week Steve talks with our friend, economist Fadhel Kaboub. Followers of this podcast will recognize some of the themes we regularly focus on, including the debt trap facing countries of the global South, and the need for climate action and transformative economic development. Current plans under consideration are extractive and paternalistic, continuing the patterns of colonial exploitation.At the root of the external debt problem are three major structural issues: food deficits, energy deficits, and manufacturing deficits. Fadhel breaks down each of these problems, tracing the origins and suggesting how solutions will benefit not just Africa and the global South, but the international working class.“So, the type of thinking that we need to have today is one of two options. Do we work towards reforming this global economic architecture that was designed for these purposes? Or do we build a parallel, alternative economic architecture from the ground up? I'm of the opinion that the countries that dominate the current economic architecture will fight to death to keep their supremacy.”Steve and Fadhel also discuss MMT, degrowth, and the job guarantee. They look at the role China could play in Africa.Fadhel Kaboub is an associate professor of economics at Denison University (on leave), and the president of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. He is also a member of the Independent Expert Group on Just Transition and Development and serves as senior advisor with Power Shift Africa.@FadhelKaboub on Twitter

“We've been trying to get people to stop saying ‘mainstream media.’ I’ve got to do it now too, for the same reason that you just described: because there's nothing mainstream about 90 percent of the media being controlled by 6 private, for-profit corporations or 5 other big tech companies. There's nothing mainstream, or Main Street, about the ideas and the views that they platform. It's corporate media or establishment legacy press, and then there's independent media which means very little.” — Mickey HuffProject Censored was founded by a communications and sociology professor in the 1970s. He asked himself how it was that Richard Nixon was elected by a landslide despite ample coverage of his misdeeds and corruption in the independent alternative media. And why did it take so long for the establishment press to catch up?Steve’s guest Mickey Huff discusses the work of Project Censored today and the current state of the press. They talk about how the corporate media's coverage is based on American exceptionalism and propaganda efforts, as well as the receding role of independent local outlets. They emphasize the importance of critical media literacy and how the media landscape has become more complicated with the rise of social media. They touch on the influence of big tech and billionaires on the media, and look at it as another example of corporate exploitation of workers.Mickey Huff is an educator, radio broadcast producer/host, podcaster, author/editor, the current director of Project Censored, and the president of the nonprofit Media Freedom Foundation. Since 2009, he has coedited the annual volume of the Censored book series and has contributed numerous chapters to these works since 2008. His most recent books include United States of Distraction: Media Manipulation in Post-Truth America (and what we can do about it), co-authored with Nolan Higdon, and Project Censored’s State of the Free Press In 2024, co-edited with Andy Lee Roth. Mickey is currently a professor of social science, history, and journalism at Diablo Valley College where he co-chairs the History Area and is chair of the Journalism Department.https://www.projectcensored.orgOn Twitter:@mythinfo@ProjectCensored

“...the question of how to pay for it is a very complicated question but has much less to do with money than it does to do with social structure and industrial structure. And the quicker we can get away from centering the taxpayer as the goose that holds the golden egg money and more towards the questions of labor and industrial structure that are really going to affect how we provide healthcare, I think we're going to be in a better place.” — Rohan GreyIn 2022, Real Progressives helped our coalition partners, March for Medicare for All, organize a three-day educational summit on the healthcare crisis in the US. This week’s episode is from the panel we put together on paying for national improved Medicare for All, featuring Geoff Ginter, Yeva Nersisyan, and Rohan Grey.The panelists discuss:The meaning of currency user vs currency creatorThe money story and order of operationsFinancial restraints vs resource constraintsThe importance of deficit spendingPrivate vs public investment and inflationary constraintsPotential impact of policies on the economyThe truth about the so-called national debtSpecific to Medicare for All, they address the problem of transitioning workers out of administrative jobs in the insurance industry. They explain why Medicare for All is likely to be deflationary rather than inflationary. And they look to history to suggest ways of attracting healthcare workers to underserved locations.Geoffrey Ginter is a New Jersey based certified medical assistant, activist, and MMT evangelist. Yeva Nersisyan is an associate professor of economics at Franklin and Marshall College and a research scholar at the Levy Economics Institute at Bard College.Rohan Grey is an Assistant Professor of Law at Willamette University and the founder and president of the Modern Money Network. MintTheCoin.org@rohangrey on Twitter

**Transcripts and “extras” are available for each episode of Macro N Cheese on our website: https://realprogressives.org/macro-n-cheese-podcast/This podcast’s followers know we cover a range of topics from political theory to international events, but at some point, we always circle back to Modern Monetary Theory.This interview with Warren Mosler was originally recorded for “Let’s Get Ready to Grumble,” Steve’s show on Status Coup.As with any Mosler episode, this one is appropriate for both MMT newcomers and old-timers. They discuss interest rates, inflation, and the money supply. Warren goes over the key principles of MMT, emphasizing that government spending precedes taxation as well as the role of taxation itself.The conversation also touches on rising fuel prices and the role of Saudi Arabia as monopoly supplier setting the price of oil.Warren Mosler is an American economist and theorist, and one of the leading voices in the field of Modern Monetary Theory (MMT). Presently, Warren resides on St. Croix, in the US Virgin Islands. An entrepreneur and financial professional, Warren has spent the past 40 years gaining an insider’s knowledge of monetary operations. @wbmosler on Twitter

When we hear the term “blockchain,” we immediately think of libertarians and capitalists. Crypto bros. They have been dominating that space but they don’t hold a monopoly on it, and our guest, Joshua Dávila, AKA The Blockchain Socialist, refuses to cede the ground. In this episode he and Steve discuss the need for bridging the gap between technical knowledge and social understanding because blockchain technology can be a valuable organizing tool for socialists.Joshua suggests creating collective wallets and experimenting with democratic input in economic institutions as a starting point. He also speaks of the potential of blockchain technology in creating a new economic system that challenges the existing power structures.The space of what is economically possible is much wider than many realize. (As MMTers, we agree.) Joshua believes the tools provided by digital systems can be used to create post-capitalist systems that compete with the existing globalized digital economy. He challenges the notion that the tools used in libertarian economic systems cannot be leveraged for post-capitalist ones.Check out his blog, The Blockchain Socialist.Joshua Dávila is an author, expert on blockchain technology, and the creator of The Blockchain Socialist blog and podcast. His book, Blockchain Radicals: How Capitalism Ruined Crypto and How to Fix It, was published in 2023. https://theblockchainsocialist.com/@TBSocialist on Twitter

One of the many exciting things about a federal job guarantee is its transformative potential in reshaping society's understanding of work and value. It can provide a dignified job for people in every possible situation with every ability and disability. Of course that’s not all we love about the FJG. In this episode, Tyler Emerson and Steve also discuss the job guarantee’s preventative possibilities in tackling social and environmental crises.Tyler is one of the younger generation of MMT scholars. He works with our good friend Pavlina Tcherneva at the Economic Democracy Initiative (EDI). We recommend everyone check out their website, jobguarantee.orgThe conversation touches on the idea of money as a public resource and the need to challenge the mentality of scarcity that dominates society. The job guarantee will address poverty and provide opportunities for individuals to have agency and dignity in their work.Tyler Emerson is an economist working as a research assistant for the OSUN Economic Democracy Initiative at Bard College in New York’s Hudson Valley. His research on the link between unemployment and disability culminated in his thesis The Job Guarantee as it Relates to People with Disabilities. Tyler's area of interest continues to be the history and future of people with disabilities in the American labor force and how macroeconomic and sociological trends affect their economic position.@EDI_tweets

**Every Tuesday evening, Real Progressives hosts a virtual listening party for the current episode of Macro N Cheese. All are invited to join our informal discussion where we share insights on the topic at hand. If someone has questions, we will help find the answers. Get the registration link each week by visiting our events calendar: https://realprogressives.org/rp-events-calendar/Before the 1980s, mass layoffs were often tied to economic recessions. Today, they are shrewd corporate strategy. Modern mass layoffs are connected to leveraged buyouts or stock buybacks. Steve’s guest, Les Leopold, explains how the process works and how it came to be through the maneuverings of Wall Street and the two political parties.Les is the author of Wall Street’s War on Workers. He and Steve talk about the very real impact on people’s lives, from the coal miners of Mingo County, West Virginia, to Steve’s personal struggles after Verizon’s 2009 lay-offs. They discuss organizing, the value of a job guarantee, and intersectionality within a class analysis.Les Leopold is executive director of the Labor Institute, which he co-founded in 1976. He has written several books on the finance sector’s looting of America. His upcoming book, Wall Street’s War on Workers, is being published by Chelsea Green Publishing. Follow his substack: https://substack.com/@lesleopold1@les_leopold on Twitter

In his third appearance on Macro N Cheese, Dan Kovalik talks with Steve about his upcoming book, The Case for Palestine: Why It Matters and Why You Should Care. As with many of our guests, the episode is more of a conversation – a passionate one – than an interview.“First of all ... this conflict did not begin on October 7th, though we're led to believe it did. This conflict – well, it depends on when you want to say it started – but certainly a good starting place is 1948 in the Nakba, when 700,000 to 900,000 Palestinians were violently displaced by Israelis who came in to take over their land and their homes. And the takeover of land and homes has continued since that time.Gaza itself has been penned in with a giant fence since about 2007 in what some refer to as the largest open-air prison in the world. Others call it the biggest concentration camp in the world — where Israel has regulated the water they get, the food they get. And they've kept all those things, intentionally, to a minimum.”They both argue that the violence of the oppressor (Israel) cannot be equated with the violence of the oppressed. Any resistance against oppression is justified.While condemning the Zionist government of Israel, they stress the culpability of the US government. They discuss the lack of difference between Democratic and Republican presidents in terms of their foreign policies, particularly on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. In a conversation about current American and international politics, Dan and Steve agree on a number of things, including the need for disruptive targeted protests in addition to sustained movements, a long-term commitment to resistance, and international solidarity.Where they disagree, however, is on the matter of so-called taxpayer money. As always, Steve makes sure to correct the record. Several times.Dan Kovalik is a labor and human rights lawyer and peace activist. He is the author of several books, including The Plot to Scapegoat Russia, Nicaragua: A History of US Intervention and Resistance, and the upcoming The Case for Palestine: Why It Matters and Why You Should Care.@danielmkovalik on Twitter