Katie Dill is the Head of Design at Stripe. Previously, she was Head of Experience Design at Airbnb and Head of Design at Lyft. Katie has been named one of Business Insider’s 10 People Changing the Tech Industry as well as one of Fast Company’s 100 Most Creative People in Business and received the Girls in Tech “Creator of the Year” award. In today’s episode, she shares:• What makes a design great• Advice on building high-performing teams in hyper-growth environments• A pivotal lesson in leadership she learned at Airbnb• Stripe’s focus on quality and how it’s tied to growth• A formula for removing organizational friction• How to increase productivity• What to look for when hiring a designer—Brought to you by Sidebar—Catalyze your career with a Personal Board of Directors | Jira Product Discovery—Atlassian’s new prioritization and roadmapping tool built for product teams | OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster—Find the transcript for this episode and all past episodes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-beautiful-products-with—Where to find Katie Dill:• X: https://twitter.com/lil_dill• Threads: https://www.threads.net/@lil_dilly• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katie-dill-79168b3/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Katie’s background(04:47) Katie’s pivotal leadership moment at Airbnb(10:55) Advocating for design ROI(16:07) Stripe’s quality focus(17:50) Stripe’s vast scope(18:45) How design enhances utility(21:39) Defining beauty and its role in product growth(26:19) Operationalizing quality(28:44) Katie’s insights from dialogues with diverse organizations(34:47) 15 Essential Journeys: Stripe’s method for holistic UX understanding and unified vision(44:35) Stripe’s PQR quality review(46:25) Stripe’s prioritization philosophy(48:29) Measuring impact beyond metrics(50:28) Performance = potential – interference(54:09) Building and managing large teams(1:01:46) Removing interference at Lyft: a practical example of Katie’s leadership impact(1:06:10) Stripe’s physical workspace design(1:07:41) Embracing bold ideas(1:11:07) Qualities of great designers(1:15:15) Stripe Press(1:19:19) Katie’s parting wisdom(1:23:17) Lightning round—Referenced:• Beauty: https://www.amazon.com/Sagmeister-Walsh-Beauty-Stefan/dp/0714877271• Terry (Olivia Colman) and Richie peel mushrooms—scene from The Bear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7D8THR_osU• Building a culture of excellence | David Singleton (CTO of Stripe): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/building-a-culture-of-excellence-david-singleton-cto-of-stripe/• Figma: https://www.figma.com/• The Creative Act: A Way of Being: https://www.amazon.com/Creative-Act-Way-Being/dp/0593652886• Quote by Robert Henri: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/43397-the-object-isn-t-to-make-art-it-s-to-be-in• Brian Chesky’s 11-star experience: https://www.product-frameworks.com/11-Star-Experience.html• How to Win Friends and Influence People: https://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0671027034• The Wright Brothers: https://www.amazon.com/Wright-Brothers-David-McCullough/dp/1476728755/• The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse: https://www.amazon.com/Boy-Mole-Fox-Horse/dp/0062976583/• Oppenheimer: https://www.oppenheimermovie.com/• Shrinking on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/shrinking/umc.cmc.apzybj6eqf6pzccd97kev7bs• Toniebox: https://www.amazon.com/Toniebox-Starter-Lightning-McQueen-Playtime/dp/B09V7NJCD8• Stripe Press: https://press.stripe.com/• Poor Charlie’s Almanack: The Essential Wit and Wisdom of Charles T. Munger: https://press.stripe.com/poor-charlies-almanack• Stripe’s job board: https://stripe.com/jobs/search—Books on design craft:• Dieter Rams: Ten Principles for Good Design: https://www.amazon.com/Dieter-Rams-Principles-Good-Design/dp/3791387324• The Vignelli Canon: https://www.amazon.com/Vignelli-Canon-Massimo/dp/3037782250• Forget All the Rules About Graphic Design: Including the Ones in This Book, by Bob Gill: https://www.amazon.com/Forget-Rules-About-Graphic-Design/dp/0823018644• Emotional Design: Why We Love (or Hate) Everyday Things: https://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Design-Love-Everyday-Things/dp/0465051367• The Design of Everyday Things: Revised and Expanded Edition: https://www.amazon.com/Design-of-Everyday-Things-audiobook/dp/B07L5Y9HND• Build: An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0063046067• In Praise of Shadows: https://www.amazon.com/Praise-Shadows-Junichiro-Tanizaki/dp/0918172020• Interaction of Color: https://www.amazon.com/Interaction-Color-Anniversary-Josef-Albers/dp/0300179359• Content Design: https://contentdesign.london/shop/content-design-by-sarah-winters-paperback• Graphic Design Manual Principles and Practice: https://www.niggli.ch/en/produkt/graphic-design-manual/• Collaborative Product Design: https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/collaborative-product-design/9781491975022/• Principles of Form and Design: https://www.amazon.com/Principles-Form-Design-Wucius-Wong/dp/0471285528/ref=asc_df_0471285528• The Timeless Way of Building: https://www.patternlanguage.com/bookstore/timeless-way-of-building.html—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Sidebar—Catalyze your career with a Personal Board of Directors | Maui Nui Venison—The healthiest red meat on the planet delivered directly to your door | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments—Jason Feifer is the editor in chief of Entrepreneur magazine and a former editor at Fast Company. He’s also a podcast host, book author, keynote speaker, and startup advisor. Every week, he shares tips in his newsletter, One Thing Better, to help people become happier and more effective at work. In today’s episode, Jason draws upon his wealth of experience in media to share tactical insights on how to get press coverage. We discuss:• High-level steps to securing press coverage for your product• Why it’s critical to understand the mission of the publication• Why freelance writers are more likely to write about you• When it’s worth investing in PR• When and how to hire a great PR agency• Insider tips for writing the perfect pitch• Why you should optimize for “Opportunity Set B”—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-get-press-for-your-product-jason-feifer-editor-in-chief-of-entrepreneur-magazine/—Where to find Jason Feifer:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonfeifer/• Newsletter: jasonfeifer.com/newsletter• Help Wanted podcast: https://link.chtbl.com/LsYdERXQ—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Jason’s background(04:09) Jason’s inbox volume(07:41) The impact of press coverage on startups(08:47) Navigating the timing and outlets for press exposure(10:37) When not to pursue press coverage(12:38) Jason’s three-step press strategy(14:01) Unpacking the media’s mission(15:48) Identifying a publication’s mission(22:56) Step one: How to prepare for outreach(26:11) How press can help you(28:25) When to work with a PR agency(32:16) PR insights and red flags(36:02) Selecting the right publication for startups(42:34) Step two: Identifying the ideal pitch recipient(47:27) Pitching best practices(52:26) Step three: Creating excitement around writing about you(59:10) Success story: Meg O’Hara’s pitch(1:05:14) Playing the long game of engagement(1:08:57) The quantity of outreach(1:11:11) How to structure multiple pitches(1:14:01) How to engage with the press(1:16:37) Anticipating the story’s direction(1:18:26) “Sometimes you’re not the story, but you can be part of it”(1:24:12) How Barbara Corcoran became relevant(1:27:10) Jason’s parting advice: “Be human”(1:28:59) Lightning round—PR resources:• Jon Bier, Jack Taylor PR: https://www.jacktaylorpr.com/• Hanna Lee, Hanna Lee Communications: https://www.hannaleecommunications.com/• Jen Squilla, Max Borges Agency: http://maxborgesagency.com/• Gregg Delman, G Three Media: https://www.gthreemedia.com/• Steph Jones, Jonesworks: https://jonesworks.com/• Jon Hammond, Hammond Strategies: https://hammondstrategies.com/• Mark Fortier, Fortier PR: https://fortierpr.com/• Noelle Guerin, Cru of Two: https://www.cruoftwo.com/—Referenced:• Entrepreneur: https://www.entrepreneur.com/magazine• Fast Company: https://www.fastcompany.com/• Men’s Health: https://www.menshealth.com/• This Founder Created a Genius Way to Do Market Testing on the Cheap: https://www.entrepreneur.com/leadership/this-founder-created-a-genius-way-to-do-market-testing-on/289144• TechCrunch: https://techcrunch.com/• Inc.: https://www.inc.com/• Money News Network: https://moneynewsnetwork.com/• Help Wanted podcast: https://moneynewsnetwork.com/podcast/help-wanted/• Nicole Lapin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolelapin/• Jennifer Miller on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-miller-3b43abb/• Meg O’Hara on Problem Solvers podcast: https://audioboom.com/posts/7703348-build-relationships-that-can-reinvent-a-business• Ripple Rug cat toy: https://www.ripplerug.com/• Cat Fight! How These Inventors Beat the Counterfeiters That Nearly Destroyed Their Company: https://www.entrepreneur.com/growing-a-business/patents-and-copyright-lawyers-what-to-do-if-someone-steals/315142• Barbara Corcoran’s website: https://www.barbaracorcoran.com/• Zapier: https://zapier.com/• The Cold Start Problem: How to Start and Scale Network Effects: https://www.amazon.com/Cold-Start-Problem-Andrew-Chen/dp/0062969749• The Perfectionist’s Guide to Losing Control: A Path to Peace and Power: https://www.amazon.com/Perfectionists-Guide-Losing-Control-Peace/dp/059332952X/• Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Mutant Mayhem on Paramount+: https://www.paramountmovies.com/movies/teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-mutant-mayhem• Better Call Saul on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80021955• Breaking Bad on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/70143836• Bigvu: https://bigvu.tv/• Michelle Pfeiffer on the Never-Ending Launch of Running a Business: ‘I Kept Waiting for It to End, and I Finally Realized—Well, It’s Never Going To!’: https://www.entrepreneur.com/starting-a-business/michelle-pfeiffer-on-the-never-ending-launch-of-running-a/398064—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Karri Saarinen is the co-founder and CEO of Linear, an issue-tracking tool that has quickly become the fastest-growing and most beloved in the world. Before Linear, Karri was the principal designer and co-creator of design systems at Airbnb and the founding designer at Coinbase. In today’s episode, he shares:• How to prioritize craft in product development• The Linear method for modern software development• How Linear operates with only one PM• Why every product needs good design in 2023• Strategies for staying focused amid distractions• Linear’s unique hiring strategies• Sneak peek of a soon-to-be-released Linear feature—Brought to you by Mercury—the powerful and intuitive way for ambitious companies to bank | Composer—the AI-powered trading platform | Pendo—The all-in-one platform for product-led companies building breakthrough digital experiences—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-linear-building-with-taste—Where to find Karri Saarinen:• X: https://twitter.com/karrisaarinen• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karrisaarinen/• Website: https://karrisaarinen.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Karri’s background(04:25) Overview of Linear(06:43) Linear’s design process and its focus on quality(12:25) Building a craft-oriented company(16:41) Product management at Linear(18:37) Strategies for launching a startup without a dedicated PM(21:16) How Linear assists PMs in their roles(23:46) Linear’s potential expansion in PM roles(24:58) The importance of design(29:08) Utilizing design and brand as distinct competitive advantages(30:48) The importance of authenticity in branding and messaging(33:08) How design reviews are conducted at Linear(38:34) The Linear method for modern software development (40:07) Why productivity software should be opinionated(41:23) Why Linear created “cycles” and how it works(43:27) Why Linear doesn’t have metric-based goals(45:07) How a business can thrive without metrics, PMs, and A/B testing(48:04) A customer-focused approach to building product(50:02) Adapting strategies for diverse products and domains(53:05) Three techniques Karri uses to maintain focus(56:47) Linear’s hiring practices (1:02:10) Paid work trials(1:04:31) How to determine a candidate’s “product sense” (1:08:21) Linear’s growth journey and milestones(1:14:18) How pricing strategies were initially introduced at Linear(1:16:18) Linear’s journey to finding product-market fit(1:21:44) The importance of online presence and authenticity in business(1:24:59) Insight into the corporate culture at Linear(1:28:29) Lessons learned during Karri’s transition from IC to CEO(1:30:21) Sneak peek into the upcoming “asks” feature at Linear(1:32:04) Lightning round—Referenced:• Linear: https://linear.app/• Vercel: https://vercel.com/• Nan Yu on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thenanyu/• The Linear method: https://linear.app/method• How Ramp builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-ramp-builds-product• Lessons from scaling Ramp | Sri Batchu (Ramp, Instacart, Opendoor): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/lessons-from-scaling-ramp-sri-batchu-ramp-instacart-opendoor/• Eric Yuan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericsyuan/• The Timeless Way of Building: https://www.amazon.com/Timeless-Way-Building-Christopher-Alexander/dp/0195024028• Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: https://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Motorcycle-Maintenance-Inquiry/dp/0060839872/• John Wick: Chapter 4: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10366206/• Silo on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/silo/umc.cmc.3yksgc857px0k0rqe5zd4jice• Philips Hue lights: https://www.philips-hue.com/en-us• Finnish salmon soup recipe: https://jernejkitchen.com/recipes/finnish-salmon-soup-lohikeitto—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Jira Product Discovery—Atlassian’s new prioritization and roadmapping tool built for product teams | Coda—Meet the evolution of docs | Wix Studio—The web creation platform built for agencies—Brian Balfour is the founder and CEO of Reforge. Prior to Reforge, he was the VP of Growth at HubSpot and co-founded three other startups. In today’s episode, Brian shares 10 lessons from his career, growth, and life:• Lesson 1: Inspect the work, not the person.• Lesson 2: Tell me what it takes to win; then tell me the cost.• Lesson 3: Problems never end (and that’s okay).• Lesson 4: The year is made in the first six months.• Lesson 5: Growth is a system between acquisition, retention, and monetization. Change one and you affect them all.• Lesson 6: Do the opposite.• Lesson 7: Use cases, not personas.• Lesson 8: Solving for everyone is solving for no one.• Lesson 9: Find sparring partners, not mentors or coaches.• Lesson 10: 2x+ the activation energy for things that need to change.—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/brian-balfour-10-lessons-on-career-growth-and-life/—Where to find Brian Balfour:• X: https://twitter.com/bbalfour• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bbalfour/• Website: https://brianbalfour.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Brian’s background(04:29) His Notion doc of lessons(07:35) Lesson 1: Inspect the work, not the person(12:39) Implementing lesson 1 and a recap of Reforge Artifacts(16:01) Lesson 2: Tell me what it takes to win; then tell me the cost(18:17) Why you should revisit your ideal end state often(20:25) How planning works at Reforge(23:50) Lesson 3: Problems never end (and that’s okay)(26:31) The “players, coaches, captains” framework(30:24) How AI will allow for smaller teams(34:13) Small teams do bigger things(34:37) Lesson 4: The year is made in the first six months(38:20) Lesson 5: Growth is a system between acquisition, retention, and monetization (40:44) Examples of engagement and retention problems from HubSpot and Reforge(46:21) Lesson 6: Do the opposite (55:25) Brian’s thoughts on category creation(57:39) Lesson 7: Use cases, not personas(1:01:18) The use case map(1:03:38) Lesson 8: Solving for everyone is solving for no one (1:11:14) There are many ways to do product(1:16:52) Lesson 9: Find sparring partners, not mentors or coaches(1:23:49) Advice on setting the tone for group sharing(1:25:07) Lesson 10: You need to give 2x the activation energy for things that need to change(1:32:02) Lightning round—Referenced:• Reforge: https://www.reforge.com/• Frank Slootman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/frankslootman/• Artifacts: https://artifacts.reforge.com/artifacts• Ray Dalio’s 5 Step Process: https://commoncog.com/dalios-5-step-process-to-getting-what-you-want/• Building effective teams: https://www.reforge.com/blog/building-effective-teams• Scott Belsky’s website: https://www.scottbelsky.com/• MOOCs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_open_online_course• The Creative Act: A Way of Being: https://www.amazon.com/Creative-Act-Way-Being/dp/0593652886/• A Breakdown of LinkedIn’s AI Assisted Growth Loop: https://brianbalfour.com/essays/a-breakdown-of-linkedins-ai-assisted-growth-loop• Lex Fridman Podcast: https://lexfridman.com/podcast/• Acquired podcast: https://www.acquired.fm/• Unsolicited Feedback podcast: https://www.reforge.com/podcast/unsolicited-feedback• Elena Verna Analyzes Airtable’s Shift to Enterprise and Slack’s Product Roadmap: https://www.reforge.com/podcast/unsolicited-feedback/episode-5• The ultimate guide to product-led sales | Elena Verna: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-led-sales-elena-verna/• How to become a category pirate | Christopher Lochhead (author of Play Bigger, Niche Down, Category Pirates, more): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-become-a-category-pirate-christopher-lochhead-author-of-play-bigger-niche-down-category/• Dharmesh Shah on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dharmesh/• The ultimate guide to JTBD | Bob Moesta (co-creator of the framework): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-jtbd-bob-moesta-co-creator-of-the-framework/• How to sell your ideas and rise within your company | Casey Winters, Eventbrite: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-sell-your-ideas-and-rise-within-your-company-casey-winters-eventbrite/• Target the Right Market: https://hbr.org/2012/10/target-the-right-market-2• Douglas Atkin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/doatkin• How Linear builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-linear-builds-product• How Notion builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-notion-builds-product• Aaron White on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aaronmwhite/• Ariel Diaz on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/arieldiaz/• Ray Dalio’s website: https://www.principles.com/• Zero to One: Notes on Startups, or How to Build the Future: https://www.amazon.com/Zero-One-Notes-Startups-Future/dp/0804139296• The Wolf of Wall Street on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/70266676• Margin Call on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/Margin-Call-Kevin-Spacey/dp/B005UT29Z0• The Big Short on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80075560• The Bear on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/the-bear-05eb6a8e-90ed-4947-8c0b-e6536cbddd5f• Halt and Catch Fire on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/Halt-Catch-Fire-Season-1/dp/B00KCXIHJG• Vuori: https://vuoriclothing.com/• The man in the arena: https://www.theodorerooseveltcenter.org/Learn-About-TR/TR-Encyclopedia/Culture-and-Society/Man-in-the-Arena.aspx• Startup Dads podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/startup-dad/id1693312339—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments | Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security | Ezra—The leading full-body cancer screening company—Lane Shackleton is CPO of Coda, where he’s been leading the product and design team for over eight years. Lane started his career as an Alaskan climbing guide and then as a manual reviewer of AdWords ads before becoming a product specialist at Google and later a Group PM at YouTube. He also writes a weekly newsletter with insights and rituals for PMs, product teams, and startups. In today’s conversation, we discuss:• Principles that set great PMs apart• Rituals of great product teams• The fine line between OKRs and strategy, and why it matters• “Two-way write-up”• The story of how skippable YouTube ads were born and lessons learned• How to gauge personal career growth• “Tim Ferriss Day” and its impact on Coda’s history• How Lane bootstrapped his way to CPO from the bottom of the tech ladder—Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/what-sets-great-teams-apart-lane-shackleton-cpo-of-coda/ —Where to find Lane Shackleton:• X: https://twitter.com/lshackleton• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laneshackleton• Substack: https://lane.substack.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Lane’s background(04:03) Working as a guide in Alaska(07:32) Parallels between guiding and building software(09:12) Why Lane started studying and writing about product teams(12:49) How Lane came up with the career ladder and guiding principles(14:10) The five levels Coda’s career ladder(16:30) Principles of great product managers(21:06) The beginner’s-mind ritual at Coda(24:05) Two rituals: “cathedrals not bricks” and “proactive not reactive”(27:46) How to develop your own guiding principles(31:17) Learning from your “oh s**t” moments(36:03) Rituals from great product teams: HubSpot’s FlashTags(42:15) Rituals from great product teams: Coda’s Catalyst(47:01) Implementing rituals from other companies(49:48) How to navigate changing vs. sticking with current rituals(53:02) “Tag up” and why one-on-one meetings are harmful (55:27) Lane’s handbook on strategy and rituals(57:10) How skippable ads came about on YouTube   (1:01:46) Lane’s path to CPO(1:07:02) Advice for aspiring PMs(1:10:53) Tim Ferriss Day at Coda(1:13:24) Using two-way write-ups (1:19:30) The fine line between OKRs and strategy, and why it matters(1:21:41) Lightning round—Referenced:• Endurance: https://www.amazon.com/Endurance-Shackletons-Incredible-Alfred-Lansing/dp/0465062881• Bret Victor’s talk “Inventing on Principle”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGqwXt90ZqA• Jeremy Britton on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremybritton/• Comedian on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/60024976• The Score Takes Care of Itself: My Philosophy of Leadership: https://www.amazon.com/Score-Takes-Care-Itself-Philosophy/dp/1591843472• The Creative Act: A Way of Being: https://www.amazon.com/Creative-Act-Way-Being/dp/0593652886• AlphaZero: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaZero• Antoine de Saint-Exupéry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_de_Saint-Exup%C3%A9ry• Storyworthy: Engage, Teach, Persuade, and Change Your Life through the Power of Storytelling: https://www.amazon.com/Storyworthy-Engage-Persuade-through-Storytelling/dp/1608685489• The Moth: https://themoth.org/events• Seth Godin’s website: https://www.sethgodin.com/• The Obstacle Is the Way: The Timeless Art of Turning Trials into Triumph: https://www.amazon.com/Obstacle-Way-Timeless-Turning-Triumph/dp/1591846358• Tony Fadell’s TED talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uOMectkCCs• FlashTags: A Simple Hack for Conveying Context Without Confusion: https://www.onstartups.com/flashtags-a-simple-hack-for-conveying-context-without-confusion• How Coda builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-coda-builds-product• 100-dollar voting ritual: https://coda.io/@lshackleton/100-dollar-voting-exercise• Pixar’s Brain Trust: https://pixar.fandom.com/wiki/Brain_Trust• Lane’s product handbook: coda.io/producthandbook• The rituals of great teams | Shishir Mehrotra of Coda, YouTube, Microsoft: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-rituals-of-great-teams-shishir-mehrotra-coda-youtube-microsoft/• Principle #4: Learn by making, not talking: https://lane.substack.com/p/principle-4-learn-by-making-not-talking• Phil Farhi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philfarhi/• How to ask the right questions, project confidence, and win over skeptics | Paige Costello (Asana, Intercom, Intuit): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-ask-the-right-questions-project-confidence-and-win-over-skeptics-paige-costello-asana-intercom-intuit/• Chip Conley’s website: https://chipconley.com/• Jeff Bezos Banned PowerPoint in Meetings. His Replacement Is Brilliant: https://www.inc.com/carmine-gallo/jeff-bezos-bans-powerpoint-in-meetings-his-replacement-is-brilliant.html• Working Backwards: Insights, Stories, and Secrets from Inside Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Working-Backwards-Insights-Stories-Secrets/dp/1250267595• Dory and Pulse: https://coda.io/@codatemplates/dory-and-pulse• Turning the Flywheel: A Monograph to Accompany Good to Great: https://www.amazon.com/Turning-Flywheel-Monograph-Accompany-Great/dp/0062933795/• Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion: https://www.amazon.com/Waking-Up-Spirituality-Without-Religion/dp/1451636024• The Inner Game of Tennis: The Classic Guide to the Mental Side of Peak Performance: https://www.amazon.com/Inner-Game-Tennis-Classic-Performance/dp/0679778314• Good Strategy/Bad Strategy: The Difference and Why It Matters: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Strategy-Bad-Difference-Matters/dp/0307886239• The Last Dance on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80203144• Full Swing on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81483353• Stephen Curry: Underrated on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/movie/stephen-curry-underrated/umc.cmc.23v0wxaiwz60bjy1w4vg7npun• Arrested Development on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/70140358• Shishir’s interview question clip on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lennyrachitsky/video/7160779872296652078• The Ultimate Reference Check Template: https://coda.io/@startup-hiring/reference-checks-template• SwingVision: https://swing.tennis/• Waking Up app: https://www.wakingup.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Sidebar—Catalyze your career with a Personal Board of Directors | Wix Studio—The web creation platform built for agencies | LinkedIn Ads—Reach professionals and drive results for your business—Maya Prohovnik is currently Spotify’s Head of Podcast Product. She was employee #1 at Anchor, which was acquired by Spotify in 2019 and now powers more than 80% of all new podcasts created in the world. In 2023, Maya was named one of the Most Important People in Podcasting by The Hollywood Reporter. In today’s episode, we discuss:• How Maya operationalizes “dogfooding”• How to balance data-driven decision-making and intuition• Strategies for preserving startup culture in a large organization• Tactical tips to improve at public speaking• How Radical Candor and the Eisenhower matrix transformed her approach to managing people• What’s next at Spotify for Podcasters—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-anchor-selling-to-spotify—Where to find Maya Prohovnik:• Threads: https://www.threads.net/@mayafish• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mayaprohovnik/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Maya’s background(04:34) Spotify’s podcasting platform(06:24) Maya’s personal podcasts(11:36) The importance of “dogfooding” (13:24) How Maya operationalizes dogfooding(16:31) How to balance data-driven decision-making and trusting your gut(21:38) Building Anchor 2.0(26:24) The beginning of Anchor’s hockey stick growth(28:08) How Anchor utilized interns to make the Apple Podcasts integration “magical”(35:36) Anchor and Spotify’s successful integration(37:50) Maintaining a startup culture within a large organization(39:20) Transitioning from a startup to a large company(42:02) Challenges brought on by the acquisition(48:49) How Maya’s leadership approach is guided by Radical Candor(51:53) The Eisenhower matrix for prioritization and task management(52:46) Productivity tips(55:10) How to get better at public speaking(59:38) The future of Spotify for Podcasters(1:00:58) Lightning round—Referenced:• What is “Dogfooding”?: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/14/business/dogfooding.html• The Derry Connection: A Stephen King Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/6ixSiYlj3A9NqEXZDBgycf• Blood on Their Hands: A Big Brother Fancast: https://open.spotify.com/show/4VP16lTL8sUniQXCFeBInv• Time Share: A Children of Time Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/38yhl2lNOUajccfsdluh5j• The End of the World as We Know It: A First-Time Parenting Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/3TUr0LxcueYo2nvnyR5rML• Forgotify (stream Spotify songs that have never been played): https://forgotify.com/ • Michael Mignano on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mignano/• Lessons from scaling Spotify: The science of product, taking risky bets, and how AI is already impacting the future of music | Gustav Söderström (Co-President, CPO, and CTO at Spotify): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/lessons-from-scaling-spotify-the-science-of-product-taking-risky-bets-and-how-ai-is-already-impacting-the-future-of-music-gustav-soderstrom-co-president-cpo-and-cto-at-spotify/• Radical Candor: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Candor-Revised-Kick-Ass-Humanity/dp/1250235375• What is the Eisenhower matrix?: https://www.figma.com/resource-library/what-is-the-eisenhower-matrix/• Todoist: https://todoist.com/• Getting Things Done: The Art of Stress-Free Productivity: https://www.amazon.com/Getting-Things-Done-Stress-Free-Productivity/dp/0143126563/• Spotify for Podcasters: https://podcasters.spotify.com/• Children of Time: https://www.amazon.com/Children-Time-Adrian-Tchaikovsky/dp/0316452505• It: https://www.amazon.com/Novel-Stephen-King/dp/1982127791/• Poker Face on Peacock: https://www.peacocktv.com/stream-tv/poker-face• Barbie on Prime: https://www.amazon.com/Barbie-Margot-Robbie/dp/B0CB1TMKR6• Deadly Games: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096741/• 1-800 Contacts: https://www.1800contacts.com/• Lovevery: https://lovevery.com/• CoopCrate: https://www.coopcratechickens.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Pendo—The all-in-one platform for product-led companies building breakthrough digital experiences | Wix Studio—The web creation platform built for agencies | Masterworks—Invest in blue-chip art—Nilan Peiris is Chief Product Officer at Wise, one of the fastest-growing (and profitable) tech companies in the world. Wise allows anyone to send money in more than 60 currencies to over 160 countries at low cost, and throughout its history has grown primarily through word of mouth. In today’s episode, we discuss:• Tactical advice on driving word of mouth (WOM)• Strategies for measuring WOM• How NPS surveys helped Wise determine their growth and product strategy• How Wise incentivizes teams to do the hard things• The small change that generated a 3x increase in referrals• How Wise structures its product and growth teams—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-drive-word-of-mouth-nilan—Where to find Nilan Peiris:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/nilanp• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nilanpeiris/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Nilan’s background(03:27) A brief overview of Wise(06:11) How word of mouth is measured(07:56) Why Wise leaned into WOM(10:21) Why Wise built their WOM motion using the NPS method(16:13) How WOM solves trust problems(18:55) How to get to 9 or 10 on the NPS scale(20:51) Determining what will wow users(21:31) Common missteps companies make when trying to drive WOM(23:24) Using the “working backward” method at Airbnb(25:45) How Wise is able to offer drastically lower money transfer fees(27:51) The three costs associated with moving money(32:02) Rational vs. irrational reasons behind recommendations(34:11) Prioritizing customer happiness(38:14) How Wise approaches experimentation(46:11) Thoughts on performance reviews and general analysis(48:06) How Wise provides a 10x better banking experience(51:57) Advice on how to approach word-of-mouth marketing(53:47) Building a culture of doing hard things(55:59) The macrostructure of international banking and where Wise fits in(57:54) How Wise solves for local regulations in their onboarding flow(1:01:49) How Wise structures teams(1:03:26) The small change that generated a 3x increase in referrals(1:08:01) Nilan’s philanthropic endeavors(1:09:13) Lightning round—Referenced:• Wise: https://wise.com/us/• Henry Chen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/henry-h-chen/• About NPS: https://www.productboard.com/blog/the-power-of-nps-in-your-product-strategy/• How Snow White helped Airbnb prove that storytelling is the most important skill in design: https://uxdesign.cc/how-airbnb-proved-that-storytelling-is-the-most-important-skill-in-design-15d04ac71039• Seth Godin: This Is How You Create a Remarkable Product: https://www.businessinsider.com/seth-godin-this-is-how-you-create-a-remarkable-product-2012-10• Discover the Spotify model: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/agile-at-scale/spotify• Beam: https://beam.org/• Affinity: https://affinityghana.com/• Crime and Punishment: https://www.amazon.com/Crime-Punishment-Volokhonsky-Translation-Classics/dp/0679734503• Midnight’s Children: https://www.amazon.com/Midnights-Children-Modern-Library-Novels/dp/0812976533• Barbie: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1517268/• Arc browser: https://arc.net/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Ezra—The leading full-body cancer screening company | Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security | LinkedIn Ads—Reach professionals and drive results for your business—Itamar Gilad is a product coach, author, and speaker with over two decades of experience in senior product roles at Google, Microsoft, and various startups. He is also the author of Evidence-Guided: Creating High-Impact Products in the Face of Uncertainty and publishes a popular product management newsletter. In today’s episode, we discuss:• What it means to be “evidence-guided”• How to think about your KPIs as metric trees• How to prioritize ideas using the “confidence meter”• The GIST model for roadmapping• Common mistakes with ICE• Advice for using evidence to challenge gut-driven founders—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/becoming-evidence-guided-itamar-gilad—Where to find Itamar Gilad:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/ItamarGilad• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/itamargilad/• Website: https://itamargilad.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Itamar’s background(04:35) How his time working on Gmail shaped his philosophy of “opinion-based” development(08:35) Lessons from developing Gmail’s tabbed inbox (13:40) A brief overview of Itamar’s book, Evidence-Guided(14:30) Balancing founder creativity with an evidence-based approach(17:32) Advice on how to push back against founders(19:36) Signs you aren’t as evidence-guided as you may think(21:13) Itamar’s GIST model for becoming more evidence-guided(23:51) How to set overarching goals using his “value exchange loop”(28:45) North star metrics vs. KPIs(33:47) Using “ICE” to assess the value of ideas(37:39) Itamar’s confidence meter(44:28) Speed of delivery vs. speed of discovery(46:14) How to apply Itamar’s frameworks based on company type and stage(49:09) First steps in becoming more evidence-guided(50:21) Next steps in testing(55:41) The task layer in the GIST framework(1:02:54) Thoughts on roadmapping(1:04:56) How OKRs fit into the whole picture(1:07:11) Lightning round—Referenced:• Itamar’s presentation slides: https://itamargilad.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Podcast-Slides.pdf• What differentiates the highest-performing product teams | John Cutler (Amplitude, The Beautiful Mess): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/what-differentiates-the-highest-performing-product-teams-john-cutler-amplitude-the-beautiful-mess/• Evidence-Guided: Creating High-Impact Products in the Face of Uncertainty: https://itamargilad.com/book-evidence-guided/• The co-founders of Google in Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/profile/larry-page-and-sergey-brin• Kanban: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/kanban• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira• The ultimate guide to OKRs | Christina Wodtke (Stanford): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-okrs-christina-wodtke-stanford/• Amplitude: https://amplitude.com/• The ultimate guide to A/B testing | Ronny Kohavi (Airbnb, Microsoft, Amazon): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-ab-testing-ronny-kohavi-airbnb-microsoft-amazon/• ICE framework: https://growthmethod.com/ice-framework/• Sean Ellis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/seanellis/• RICE scoring model: https://www.productplan.com/glossary/rice-scoring-model/• Idea Prioritization with ICE and the Confidence Meter: https://itamargilad.com/the-tool-that-will-help-you-choose-better-product-ideas/• Assumptions Mapping: https://designsprintkit.withgoogle.com/methodology/phase2-define/assumptions-mapping• What is Dog Fooding, Fish Fooding a Product?: https://matt-rickard.com/fishfooding-dogfooding-product• SVPG books: https://www.svpg.com/books/• The Lean series: https://theleanstartup.com/the-lean-series• Dreaming Spanish: https://www.youtube.com/c/DreamingSpanish• ElevenLabs: https://elevenlabs.io/• Lennybot: https://www.lennybot.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Mixpanel—Event analytics that everyone can trust, use, and afford | Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security | Round—The private network built by tech leaders for tech leaders—Christopher Lochhead is a 14-time #1 bestselling author, top podcaster, and former 3x public tech company CMO and has been an advisor to over 50 VC-backed tech startups. He is best known as a “godfather” of category design, and Adobe named his book Play Bigger one of “the five greatest marketing books of all time.” In this episode, we discuss:• What exactly category design is• The “Frame It, Name It, Claim It” framework• How to go about designing your category• Why “languaging” is so powerful• Rating yourself on the category design scorecard• Why Chris considers “product-market fit” a dangerous concept• Chris’s spicy take on positioning• The “better trap” and why it’s crucial to avoid it• The magic triangle of product, company, and category• How to embrace negative feedback• Why the greatest time in the history of innovation is now—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-become-a-category-pirate-christopher—Where to find Christopher Lochhead:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lochhead• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopherlochhead/• Website: https://www.categorypirates.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Chris’s background(05:08) Why Chris shares his negative criticism on his website(11:58) A simple explanation of category design(18:00) How Purell mastered category design(23:07) What Gong got right (and wrong)(29:01) The “better trap” and why it’s crucial to avoid it(38:51) Reflective thinking vs. reflexive thinking(44:45) How Lomi created a revolutionary solution for food waste (48:50) The “Frame It, Name It, Claim It” framework (49:08) The concept of “languaging” (54:00) Examples of languaging (59:19) Spend more time on the problem than the solution(1:01:37) The power of “backcasting”(1:07:33) The truth behind building legendary brands(1:10:39) The problem with product-market fit(1:16:11) Chris’s spicy take on positioning(1:19:20) “Damming the demand”(1:24:49) Laws from Chris’s book The 22 Laws of Category Design(1:29:46) Word of mouth: the most powerful form of marketing(1:34:05) Chris’s closing message to listeners(1:39:01) Lightning round—Referenced:• Rick Rubin Says Trust Your Gut, Not Your Audience: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rick-rubin-says-trust-your-gut-not-your-audience/id1570872415?i=1000606447333• How to identify your ideal customer profile (ICP): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-identify-your-ideal-customer• Grant Cardone on Twitter: https://twitter.com/GrantCardone• Tai Lopez on Twitter: https://twitter.com/tailopez• The Difference Between a First Mover and a Category Creator: https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-difference-between-a-first-mover-and-a-category-creator• Gojo Industries: https://www.gojo.com/• Gartner reports: https://www.gartner.com/• Forrester reports: https://www.forrester.com/bold• Gong: https://www.gong.io/• Clari: https://www.clari.com/• Threads, Instagram’s “Twitter Killer,” Has Arrived: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/05/technology/threads-app-meta-twitter-killer.html• Kevin Maney: https://kevinmaney.com/• Red Bull cola: https://www.redbull.com/int-en/theorganics/organics-simply-cola• Microsoft Copied Apple’s Successful Retail Plan. Now It’s Shutting the Whole Thing Down: https://www.inc.com/jason-aten/microsoft-copied-apples-successful-retail-plan-now-its-shutting-whole-thing-down.html• A New Way to Think, with World’s #1 Management Thinker Roger Martin: https://lochhead.com/roger-martin/• A New Way to Think: Your Guide to Superior Management Effectiveness: https://www.amazon.com/New-Way-Think-Management-Effectiveness/dp/164782351X• RJ Scaringe on Twitter: https://twitter.com/rjscaringe• Lomi: https://lomi.com/products/lomi• Otis elevators: https://www.otis.com/en/us• How to build a breakthrough … the secret of Backcasting: https://medium.com/@m2jr/how-to-build-a-breakthrough-3071b6415b06• John Bielenberg’s website: https://www.thinknado.com/• Eddie Yoon: https://www.eddiewouldgrow.com/• Marc Andreessen on Twitter: https://twitter.com/pmarca• Snow Leopard: How Legendary Writers Create a Category of One: https://www.amazon.com/Snow-Leopard-Legendary-Writers-Category/dp/1956934456• Play Bigger: How Pirates, Dreamers, and Innovators Create and Dominate Markets: https://www.amazon.com/Play-Bigger-Dreamers-Innovators-Dominate-ebook/dp/B015MOJ80G• Niche Down: How to Become Legendary by Being Different: https://www.amazon.com/Niche-Down-Become-Legendary-Different-ebook/dp/B07FLKJJQQ• The 22 Laws of Category Design: Name & Claim Your Niche, Share Your POV, and Move The World from Where It Is to Somewhere Different: https://www.amazon.com/Laws-Category-Design-Somewhere-Different/dp/195693457X/• An inside look at Deel’s unprecedented growth | Meltem Kuran Berkowitz (Head of Growth): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/an-inside-look-at-deels-unprecedented-growth-meltem-kuran-berkowitz-head-of-growth/• Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah: https://www.amazon.com/Illusions-Adventures-Reluctant-Richard-Bach/dp/0440204887• What They Don’t Teach You at Harvard Business School: Notes from a Street-Smart Executive: https://www.amazon.com/What-Teach-Harvard-Business-School/dp/0553345834• Inventing Anna on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81008305• The rise and fall and rise of Tony Eltherington: https://www.swellnet.com/news/swellnet-dispatch/2017/04/27/rise-and-fall-and-rise-tony-eltherington—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Jira Product Discovery—Atlassian’s new prioritization and roadmapping tool built for product teams—Oji Udezue is Chief Product Officer at Typeform and has held leadership roles at Twitter (Head of Product for Creation and Conversation), Calendly (CPO), and Atlassian (Head of Product for communication tools). He is well-known for bringing a product-led-growth (PLG) mindset to the companies he joins. Additionally, Oji mentors startups, is a Managing Partner at the Kernel Fund, and writes online about product management. In this episode, we discuss:• Oji’s “Where to Fish to Land a Unicorn” and “Zone of Benefit” frameworks• Why you need to find the “sharpest” problem• How to operationalize continuous customer discovery• Tips on optimizing onboarding flows• Freemium vs. gated offerings in PLG• Tactical strategies for making your product more viral• The concept of “forest time” and how it can provide clarity in your work—Find full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/picking-sharp-problems-increasing—Where to find Oji Udezue:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/ojiudezue• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ojiudezue/• Substack: https://substack.com/@ojiudezue—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Oji’s background(03:38) Oji’s “Where to Fish to Land a Unicorn” framework(05:26) Workflow quadrants(09:30) How product people can push frequency (12:28) Oji’s “Zone of Benefit” framework(14:49) How to find your ICPs(15:33) ICPs at Twitter(20:20) Oji’s philosophy on frameworks(22:31) Oji’s upcoming book(24:34) An explanation of “sharp problems”(28:31) Signs your problem is “sharp enough”(31:17) Discovery vs. continuous conversations(35:08) Customer listening(38:31) Onboarding fundamentals(43:49) Activated user milestones(45:47) The power of network effects(50:15) An explanation of virality and how to increase it(56:32) How to use “forest time” to zoom out and see problems in a new way(1:00:53) Lessons from Oji’s time at Bridgewater Associates(1:05:07) Why R&D teams need a larger system beyond Agile and design(1:06:57) Lightning round—Referenced:• Where to fish to land a unicorn: https://ojiudezue.medium.com/where-to-fish-to-land-a-unicorn-in-b2b-saas-9bc93c96152c• Coda: https://coda.io/• Atlassian: https://www.atlassian.com/• Finding high-frequency customers (use cases): https://ojiudezue.medium.com/finding-high-frequency-customers-use-cases-53773a753bb5• Evernote: https://evernote.com/• Industry PM conference: https://www.industryconference.com/• Typeform: https://www.typeform.com/• Build better products with continuous product discovery | Teresa Torres: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/videos/build-better-products-with-continuous-product-discovery-teresa-torres/• Pendo: https://www.pendo.io/• Amplitude: https://amplitude.com/• Dan Hockenmaier on Twitter: https://twitter.com/danhockenmaier• Seth Godin’s blog: https://seths.blog/• A key ritual: Forest time: https://ojiudezue.substack.com/p/a-key-ritual-forest-time• Principles: https://www.principles.com/• Dot Collector: https://principlesus.com/dot-collector-real-time-feedback/• The Halo Effect: . . . and the Eight Other Business Delusions That Deceive Managers: https://www.amazon.com/Halo-Effect-Business-Delusions-Managers/dp/1476784035/• Dune: https://www.amazon.com/Dune-Penguin-Galaxy-Frank-Herbert/dp/0143111582• Foundation: https://www.amazon.com/Foundation-3-Book-Boxed-Set-Empire/dp/0593499573• Foundation on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/foundation/umc.cmc.5983fipzqbicvrve6jdfep4x3• Unlox: https://unlox.it/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Mercury—the powerful and intuitive way for ambitious companies to bank | Coda—Meet the evolution of docs | Miro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life—Andy Johns is a former tech exec and VC who had a successful run at several startups—including Facebook, Twitter, Wealthfront, and Quora—but left it all behind a few years ago to take a new direction in life. Now a mental health advocate, he aids military veterans with PTSD, guides burnt-out high achievers to new paths, and shares his healing journey from childhood trauma and mental illness through his newsletter, Clues Dot Life. In this episode, we discuss:• Why Andy left his seven-figure VC career behind• The four-step process of deep personal transformation• When suffering is necessary vs. unnecessary• Tips for finding a good therapist• How a writing practice can help you heal• When you’re in need of radical transformation—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/when-enough-is-enough-andy-johns—Where to find Andy Johns:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/cluesdotlife• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewjohns/• Website: https://www.clues.life/• Newsletter: https://andyjohns.substack.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Andy’s background(04:45) His personal burnout story(12:55) The high incidence of mental health struggles in tech(14:41) Why Andy walked away from a seven-figure VC job(20:29) His work in mental health advocacy (23:32) The four-step process of deep personal transformation(31:40) The ego’s involvement(33:23) Necessary vs. unnecessary suffering(37:01) First steps in understanding your suffering(38:59) Advice on finding a therapist(42:11) How a writing practice can help you heal(43:47) Two methods for writing to gain self-understanding (47:47) Signs you’re dealing with more than just typical job stress(52:22) How to move into a place of self-compassion(57:16) The unpredictable timeline of healing (59:59) How to develop compassion for others(1:02:19) Why not everyone needs a radical transformation(1:04:10) The story of Pema Chodron’s transformation (1:06:06) What holds people back from making changes(1:13:29) Finding your own unique path to healing(1:17:32) Andy’s closing message to anyone feeling pulled toward a new chapter(1:18:59) How Andy is doing now—Referenced:• How to know when to stop: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-know-when-to-stop• Heroic Hearts Project: https://heroicheartsproject.org/• Panic attacks and panic disorder: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/4451-panic-attack-panic-disorder• The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma: https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-Score-Healing-Trauma/dp/0143127748• Vipassana meditation: https://www.dhamma.org/en/index• The Power of Now: A Guide to Spiritual Enlightenment: https://www.amazon.com/Power-Now-Guide-Spiritual-Enlightenment/dp/1577314808• Moby Dick: https://www.amazon.com/Moby-Dick-Herman-Melville/dp/1503280780• When Things Fall Apart: Heart Advice for Difficult Times: https://www.amazon.com/When-Things-Fall-Apart-Difficult/dp/1611803438—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security | Mixpanel—Event analytics that everyone can trust, use, and afford | AssemblyAI—Production-ready AI models to transcribe and understand speech—Claire Butler was Figma’s first GTM hire and their 10th employee. She led Figma’s early GTM strategy from stealth through monetization. She also helped the team through the journey to find product-market fit and built the team that drove Figma’s unique bottom-up growth motion. Eight years later, as Senior Director of Marketing, she continues to lead Figma’s bottom-up growth motion, along with community, events, social, advocacy, and Figma for education. In this episode, we discuss:• An in-depth look at Figma’s bottom-up GTM motion• Why you need to start with individual contributors (ICs) loving your product• How to spread adoption within the organization• How “designer advocates” have played a critical role in Figma’s growth• The freemium strategy that drove massive growth for Figma• How to leverage product champions• When to leave stealth• Early-stage metrics, and why they are often unreliable• Advice for people looking to join a startup—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/an-inside-look-at-figmas-unique-bottom—Where to find Claire Butler:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/clairetbutler• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/clairetbutler/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Claire’s background(03:47) The huge branding decision that Claire made on day one at Figma(07:45) The most stressful memory of early days at Figma(09:55) Advice for people looking to join a startup(12:55) What a bottom-up go-to-market motion is(17:12) Figma’s unique approach to bottom-up GTM(18:52) Figma’s launch out of stealth (23:01) Signals vs. hard metrics in the early days (24:50) How Figma won over Microsoft(30:08) How to win over ICs(32:00) How to establish credibility(37:38) Customer obsession in action(41:11) Why getting users to love your product is so vital(44:01) How Figma used Twitter as its primary channel in the early days(49:06) Transparency and authenticity(49:52) GTM tactics at scale(52:09) “Little big updates” at Figma(54:16) Figma’s acquisition, and why it was one of the hardest days of Claire’s career(57:10) Figma’s core values(58:06) The Config conference(1:00:21) Spreading your product within the organization(1:02:09) The pricing tiers at Figma(1:07:35) The role of designer advocates(1:10:57) Design systems(1:16:12) Leveraging internal champions(1:17:53) Accelerating spread at scale(1:19:14) What types of companies are a good fit for bottom-up GTM(1:24:16) A summary of the bottom-up GTM model(1:25:27) Lightning round—Referenced:• Dylan Field on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dylanfield/• John Lilly on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnlilly/• Ivan Zhao on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ivanhzhao/• Xamarin: https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/apps/xamarin• Josef Müller-Brockmann: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_M%C3%BCller-Brockmann• Datadog: https://www.datadoghq.com/• Coda: https://coda.io/• Oren’s Hummus on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/orenshummus/• Intercom: https://www.intercom.com/• How Coda builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-coda-builds-product• Dylan Field on Twitter: https://twitter.com/zoink• Dylan’s tweet: https://twitter.com/zoink/status/1566566649712431105• Little Big Updates: https://www.figma.com/blog/little-big-updates-august-2022/• Sho Kuwamoto on Twitter: https://twitter.com/skuwamoto• Kris Rasmussen on Twitter: https://twitter.com/kris_rasmussen• Config: https://config.figma.com/• Tom Lowry on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomaslowry• Atomic Design: https://atomicdesign.bradfrost.com/• Figjam: https://www.figma.com/figjam/• Dev Mode: https://www.figma.com/dev-mode/• Radical Candor: Be a Kick-Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Candor-Revised-Kick-Ass-Humanity/dp/1250235375• Dare to Lead: Brave Work. Tough Conversations. Whole Hearts: https://www.amazon.com/Dare-Lead-Brave-Conversations-Hearts/dp/0399592520• 100 Foot Wave on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/100-foot-wave• Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones: https://www.amazon.com/Atomic-Habits-James-Clear-audiobook/dp/B07RFSSYBH• Noah Weiss on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-10-traits-of-great-pms-how-ai-will-impact-your-product-and-slacks-product-development-process/• How to create an exceptional coverage plan for your parental leave (Tamara Hinckley): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-create-an-exceptional-coverage—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Productroadmap.ai—AI to connect your roadmaps to revenue | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments | OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster—Tim Holley is VP of Product at Etsy where he leads the Etsy buyer experience. With a tenure spanning more than a decade, Tim has seen the company through many transitions (both in culture, in leadership, and in growth), and his team’s product changes have had a significant impact on buyer retention, conversion, and global expansion. In this episode, we discuss:• Lessons from navigating corporate culture shifts• How Etsy capitalized on the explosive growth of e-commerce during the pandemic• Marketplace learnings: when to focus on supply vs. demand, optimizing conversion, and more• How Etsy solves the “graduation problem”• Tips for hiring product managers—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-etsys-product-growth-and-marketplace—Where to find Tim Holley:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timholley/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Tim’s background(04:23) Tim’s time away at SoulCycle and what led him back to Etsy(06:34) Lessons from the 2017 culture shift at Etsy(12:15) Etsy’s guiding principles (13:32) How Etsy adapted to increased demand during the early days of mask mandates(16:38) What Tim learned about managing stress with his team during the pandemic(18:46) Lessons from building a thriving marketplace(21:47) Prioritization at Etsy(24:37) Supply constraint vs. demand constraint (28:43) Conversion wins(33:27) Experimentation at Etsy(37:58) Acquisition and top-of-funnel tactics(39:44) The seller referral program(40:33) Etsy’s habit loop framework(44:11) How they set themselves apart from other marketplaces(51:23) Retaining sellers (53:23) The defunct Etsy studio(55:18) Running the product team(57:20) Who the decision maker is (1:01:20) What Tim looks for when hiring PMs (1:03:03) A reflection exercise Tim does with his teams(1:05:08) Lightning round—Referenced:• Etsy: https://www.etsy.com/• SoulCycle: https://www.soul-cycle.com/• Inside the Revolution at Etsy: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/25/business/etsy-josh-silverman.html• Ronny Kohavi on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-ab-testing-ronny-kohavi-airbnb-microsoft-amazon/• How to Kickstart and Scale a Marketplace Business – Part 3: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-kickstart-and-scale-a-marketplace-911• Team of Teams: New Rules of Engagement for a Complex World: https://www.amazon.com/Team-Teams-Rules-Engagement-Complex/dp/1591847486• Let My People Go Surfing: The Education of a Reluctant Businessman: https://www.amazon.com/Let-People-Surfing-Education-Businessman-Including/dp/0143109677• The Power Broker: Robert Moses and the Fall of New York: https://www.amazon.com/Power-Broker-Robert-Moses-Fall/dp/0394720245• Yellowstone on Paramount+: https://www.paramountnetwork.com/shows/yellowstone• Nara Baby app: https://naraorganics.com/nara-baby-tracker• Huckleberry app: https://huckleberrycare.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Miro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life | LMNT—Zero-sugar hydration | AssemblyAI—Production-ready AI models to transcribe and understand speech—Meltem Kuran Berkowitz is Head of Growth at Deel, which went from $0 to $300m in ARR in 3 years (fastest company in history to do so). Meltem joined Deel early to lead growth, and currently leads all of the growth and marketing teams including paid ads, content, product marketing, community, brand, and more. In this episode, we discuss:• How Deel found success leveraging low-cost growth channels• Why early awareness campaigns are a waste of time in B2B• How to create effective SEO content• Deel’s “traffic light” framework• When it makes sense to invest in paid ads• The art of structuring growth teams• Building a startup culture—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/an-inside-look-at-deels-unprecedented—Where to find Meltem Kuran Berkowitz:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/meltemkuran• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meltem-kuran-berkowitz-4721114b—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Meltem’s background(04:21) What Deel does(06:32) How Meltem leverages low-cost growth channels(13:18) How to answer questions in a value-add way(14:52) Leveraging closed communities(15:48) Breaking down Deel’s impressive growth (16:33) SEO best practices(18:32) Deel’s “traffic light system” framework for publishing content(20:03) The step-by-step process of publishing an SEO article(21:55) How Deel structures their content team(23:18) Why you can’t cut corners when doing SEO(25:15) Businesses that should not invest in SEO(26:40) The growth channels Deel prioritized early on(32:12) Why Meltem is not a fan of early awareness campaigns for B2B businesses (33:54) What Notion did right with their ad campaigns(36:16) How Deel can help your company(38:15) Deel’s blog post that caught the attention of the IRS(40:06) Paid ads tips(42:12) Why acquisition channels are useless without a great product(44:19) How the pandemic helped drive growth at Deel(47:11) Structuring early growth teams(51:23) Building a startup culture(1:01:10) The story behind Meltem’s unique workspace(1:05:22) Closing thoughts on growth (1:06:05) Lightning round—Referenced:• Deel: https://www.deel.com/• Clearscope: https://www.clearscope.io/• Notion: https://www.notion.so/• Geoff Charles on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/velocity-over-everything-how-ramp-became-the-fastest-growing-saas-startup-of-all-time-geoff-charl/• Amp It Up: Leading for Hypergrowth by Raising Expectations, Increasing Urgency, and Elevating Intensity: https://www.amazon.com/Amp-Unlocking-Hypergrowth-Expectations-Intensity/dp/1119836115• Snowflake: https://www.snowflake.com• How Will You Measure Your Life?: https://www.amazon.com/How-Will-Measure-Your-Life/dp/0062102419• Oppenheimer: https://www.oppenheimermovie.com/• The Summer I Turned Pretty on Amazon Prime: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09NF4J7XW• Library stamps on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/library-stamp/s?k=library+stamp• Bloody Caesar recipe: https://www.liquor.com/recipes/bloody-caesar/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Sidebar—Catalyze your career with a Personal Board of Directors | Merge—A single API to add hundreds of integrations into your app | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments—Bob Moesta is the co-creator of the Jobs To Be Done (JTBD) framework, a close collaborator of Clay Christensen, and CEO and founder of The Re-Wired Group. He has helped launch more than 3,500 new products, services, and businesses and built and sold several startups himself. He is also a fellow at the Clayton Christensen Institute and a guest lecturer at the Harvard Business School, MIT Sloan School of Entrepreneurship, and Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management. In this episode, we discuss:• What Snickers and Milky Way can teach us about JTBD• The various flavors of the JTBD framework• Best practices for implementing the framework• Advice on conducting interviews for B2B vs. B2C customers• Common mistakes people make when implementing JTBD• When not to use it—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-jtbd-bob-moesta—Where to find Bob Moesta:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/bmoesta• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobmoesta/• Website: http://www.therewiredgroup.com/• Podcast: https://pca.st/gg6goo1n—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Bob’s background(04:04) A simple explanation of the Jobs To Be Done framework(07:29) Struggling moments and demand(09:51) Understanding the context behind pain points(11:14) Reducing friction in the sales process(14:46) How Autobooks improved their buying process and 4x’ed conversion(16:52) The six phases of the buying process(18:30) The JTBD interview process(21:55) How Bob’s TBI affected his reading/writing and how he is able to write books(22:02) Why people switch companies(27:18) Tips for JTBD interviewing(30:07) Why you should not have a discussion guide(32:48) The danger of looking at the customer through the product(33:53) First steps in applying the JTBD framework(36:25) Signs people are ready for a change(37:43) Bob’s “layers of language”(40:15) Examples of companies with a broad adoption of JTBD(43:59) The different flavors of JTBD and common mistakes to avoid when implementing it(48:19) Bob’s work with Clay Christensen on JTBD theory(51:05) When not to use JTBD(53:40) Common misconceptions about the framework(55:55) What compelled Bob to spend so much of his life on JTBD(58:07) Three big takeaways(59:07) Lightning round—Referenced:• Jason Fried on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-fried/• Des Traynor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/destraynor• Southern New Hampshire University: https://degrees.snhu.edu/• Paul LeBlanc on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-j-leblanc-6a17749/• Demand-Side Sales 101: Stop Selling and Help Your Customers Make Progress: https://www.amazon.com/Demand-Side-Sales-101-Customers-Progress/dp/1544509987• Autobooks: https://www.autobooks.co/• Intercom: https://www.intercom.com/• Zendesk: https://www.zendesk.com/• HubSpot: https://www.hubspot.com/• The Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University: https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/• Y Combinator: https://www.ycombinator.com/• Michael Horn on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelbhorn/• Ethan Bernstein on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ethanbernstein/• Never Split the Difference: Negotiating as If Your Life Depended on It: https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-Depended/dp/0062407805• William Edwards Deming on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming• Basecamp: https://basecamp.com/• Sriram and Aarthi on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/hot-takes-and-techno-optimism-from-techs-top-power-couple-sriram-and-aarthi/• Genichi Taguchi: https://www.qualitygurus.com/genichi-taguchi/• Tony Ulwick on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tonyulwick/• The Clayton Christensen Institute on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/clayton-christensen-institute/• Shape Up: https://basecamp.com/shapeup• The End of Average: Unlocking Our Potential by Embracing What Makes Us Different: https://www.amazon.com/End-Average-Unlocking-Potential-Embracing/dp/0062358375• The Big Bang Theory on TBS: https://www.tbs.com/shows/the-big-bang-theory/watch-now• Oppenheimer: https://www.oppenheimermovie.com/• Kyota massage chairs at Costco: https://www.costco.com/massage-chairs-cushions.html?brand=Kyota&refine=%7C%7CBrand_attr-Kyota• Paul Adams on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pauladams/• Matt Hodges on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattnhodges/• Andrew Glaser on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/glaserandrew/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Merge—A single API to add hundreds of integrations into your app | Coda—Meet the evolution of docs | Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.—Camille Hearst is Head of Fan Monetization at Spotify, where she finds new ways for fans to connect and for artists to monetize. Previously she was Head of Product for Creators at Patreon, Product Marketing Manager at YouTube, the second Product Manager at iTunes, and VP of Product at Hailo. She also co-founded a company called Kit, which was acquired by Patreon in 2018. In today’s podcast, we discuss:• Advice on building a successful career as a creator• Her take on the future of the creator economy• The best and worst parts of building products for music artists• What Apple product teams do differently• The story of meeting Steve Jobs• Advice for founders going through acquisitions—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/monetizing-passions-scaling-marketplaces—Where to find Camille Hearst:• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/camillionz• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chearst/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Camille’s background(04:24) Camille’s role as Head of Fan Monetization at Spotify(07:40) The best and worst parts of working with artists(14:15) Trends in the content creation world(19:29) Advice on building a successful career as a creator(21:32) The importance of content curators(22:30) Camille’s startup, Kit (24:49) Advice on selling your startup(28:28) The supply side of marketplaces(34:37) How Camille became the second PM at iTunes (35:43) The story of meeting Steve Jobs(43:01) Apple’s style of product management(45:54) Opportunities on the platform side of content creation(48:34) Camille’s early years growing up in a creative tech family(53:45) Favorite frameworks(52:32) Lightning round—Referenced:• Adam Fishman on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-build-a-high-performing-growth-team-adam-fishman-patreon-lyft-imperfect-foods/• The Federal Reserve says Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour boosted the economy. One market research firm estimates she could add $5 billion: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/taylor-swift-eras-tour-boosted-economy-tourism-federal-reserve-how-much-money-made/• Yelp coins the “Beyoncé bump” for the economic halo created by the pop star’s Renaissance Tour: https://fortune.com/2023/07/19/beyonce-renaissance-tour-economic-impact/• Lenny Bot: https://www.lennybot.com/• YouTube streamer faces riot charge after Union Square Park erupts in chaos: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/04/nyregion/union-square-kai-cenat-twitch-giveaway.html• Michelle Phan on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MICHELLEPHA• Rover: https://www.rover.com/• Airbnb’s product management shift: the view from product leaders: https://www.mindtheproduct.com/airbnbs-product-management-shift-the-viewpoint-of-product-leaders/#• Hiroki Asai on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hiroki-asai-a44137110/• The Really Good Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-really-good-podcast/id1697794816• Nichiren Buddhism: https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/buddhism/subdivisions/nichiren_1.shtml• What’s Love Got to Do with It on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/movie/whats-love-got-to-do-with-it-f996a307-ee91-4550-8829-3694f55e0189• Marty Cagan on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-nature-of-product-marty-cagan-silicon-valley-product-group/• Why you should eat the frog first: https://asana.com/resources/eat-the-frog• Draw the owl: https://review.firstround.com/draw-the-owl-and-other-company-values-you-didnt-know-you-should-have• The Three-Body Problem: https://www.amazon.com/Three-Body-Problem-Cixin-Liu/dp/0765382032• Kindred: https://www.amazon.com/Kindred-Octavia-Butler/dp/0807083690• A Wrinkle in Time: https://www.amazon.com/Wrinkle-Time-Quintet/dp/0312367546/• Foundation on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/foundation/umc.cmc.5983fipzqbicvrve6jdfep4x3• Battlestar Galactica on SyFy: https://www.syfy.com/battlestar-galactica• Hijack on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/hijack/umc.cmc.1dg08zn0g3zx52hs8npoj5qe3• Shadow and Bone on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80236319• Afrobeats playlist on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/37i9dQZF1EQqFPe2ux3rbj• “Calm Down” by Rema on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/37iaWiKMa9YBbEDlw5c3Qh—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster | Mixpanel—Event analytics that everyone can trust, use, and afford | Brave Search API—An independent, global search index you can use to power your search or AI app—Austin Hay is currently Head of Marketing Technology at Ramp and was previously the VP of Business Operations at Runway, the VP of Growth at mParticle, and the fourth employee at the unicorn Branch Metrics. In 2022 he sold his online course, the Marketing Technology Academy, to Reforge, where he now teaches Martech and has a program launching in the fall. He’s consulted on Martech and growth for companies including Notion, Airbnb, Robinhood, Postmates, Walmart, JPMorgan Chase, and many others. In today’s podcast, we discuss:• What exactly marketing technology is• What a Martech person can do for your business• When to hire a Martech person and what to look for• Austin’s favorite tools• Advice for doing attribution• Frameworks on tooling, systems, and building vs. buying• How to apply the concept of “thinking gray” to make better decisions in work and life—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-martech-austin—Where to find Austin Hay:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/austinahay/• Threads: @austinahay—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Austin’s background(03:58) What marketing technology is(06:17) The difference between typical growth roles and Martech(10:23) Signs you need a Martech person on your team(14:03) Hiring and placing a Martech person in B2B, B2C, and B2B2C businesses(21:15) A day in the life of a Martech professional (25:05) Marketing technology vs. marketing operations (31:14) Tooling recommendations(41:49) The never-ending struggle of how to do attribution well(50:47) Emerging tools and platforms to keep an eye on(55:26) MMM modeling(57:47) What to look for when hiring a Martech professional, and Austin’s favorite interview questions(1:02:45) His red flags for companies and “false flags” for potential hires(1:04:51) His favorite frameworks(1:13:37) Lightning round—Referenced:• Siqi Chen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siqic/• Austin’s marketing technology course on Reforge: https://www.reforge.com/courses/marketing-technology• Notion: https://www.notion.so/• Sri Batchu on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/lessons-from-scaling-ramp-sri-batchu-ramp-instacart-opendoor/• Cody Morgan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cody-morgan/• Braze: https://www.braze.com• Marketo: https://business.adobe.com/products/marketo/adobe-marketo.html• Mparticle: https://www.mparticle.com/• Segment: https://segment.com/• Snowflake: https://www.snowflake.com/• Reverse ETL: a primer: https://medium.com/memory-leak/reverse-etl-a-primer-4e6694dcc7fb• RudderStack: https://www.rudderstack.com/• Hightouch: https://hightouch.com/• Mike Molinet on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemolinet/• Thena: https://www.thena.ai/• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/• Gong: https://www.gong.io/• How today’s top consumer brands measure marketing’s impact: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-todays-top-consumer-brands-measure• About MMM: https://www.marketingevolution.com/marketing-essentials/media-mix-modeling• Recast: https://getrecast.com/• The Contrarian’s Guide to Leadership: https://www.amazon.com/Contrarians-Guide-Leadership-Steven-Sample/dp/0787967076• The Art and Adventure of Leadership: https://www.amazon.com/Art-Adventure-Leadership-Understanding-Resilience/dp/1119090318/• Suits on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/70195800• Our Flag Means Death on Prime: https://www.amazon.com/Our-Flag-Means-Death-Season/dp/B0B8N4R4X1• What We Do in the Shadows on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/what-we-do-in-the-shadows-0b10c46a-12f0-4357-8a00-547057b49bac• Silo on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/silo• Cal.com: https://cal.com/• Brian Balfour on the Startup Dad podcast: https://www.startupdadpod.com/coping-with-the-loss-of-a-child-and-protecting-your-time-brian-balfour-father-of-2-ceo-and-found/• Amplitude: https://amplitude.com/• AppsFlyer: https://www.appsflyer.com/• Customer.io: https://customer.io/• Branch: https://www.branch.io/• HubSpot: https://www.hubspot.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security | Sidebar—Catalyze your career with a Personal Board of Directors | Merge—A single API to add hundreds of integrations into your app—Christopher Miller serves as the VP of Product for Growth and AI at HubSpot. Having spent the past seven years at HubSpot, Chris has been at the center of one of the biggest B2B growth stories in history—leading HubSpot’s early growth strategy, their shift to PLG, and now their investment in AI. Beyond his role at HubSpot, he lends his expertise to founders advising them on PLG and their growth strategy broadly. In today’s podcast, we discuss:• The principles of winning teams, careers, and companies• What customer obsession looks like in practice• How sneaking into a party led to a career opportunity• Advice for breaking into product management• How to find mentors• The top four skills for growth roles• Lessons from building HubSpot’s famous PLG motion—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/relentless-curiosity-radical-accountability-and-hubspots-winning-growth-formula-christopher-mil/#transcript—Where to find Chris Miller:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopherwilliammiller/• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/millsyjoeyoung/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Chris’s background(04:15) Chris’s role at HubSpot leading Growth and AI teams(09:17) The story of how Chris crashed a party and pitched his idea around pricing and packaging(12:25) Relentless curiosity and other important traits to have as a PM(16:52) How Chris broke into product management and advice for others wanting to do the same(22:12) Helpful tips for learning the craft of product management(26:30) Why you should talk to customers, former customers, and potential customers(29:34) Mentors vs. sponsors, and advice for finding people who will help you grow(34:02) What makes HubSpot unique(36:07) Customer obsession in action(40:23) How staying in the mid-market space has benefited HubSpot(42:10) HubSpot’s culture code(45:10) Fun rituals at HubSpot(47:36) Key elements that contributed to HubSpot’s early growth(55:00) Fallacies of product-led companies and how HubSpot embraced PLG(1:00:48) Advice for companies wanting to become more product-led(1:04:35) Common mistakes to avoid when trying to start a PLG motion(1:07:53) How HubSpot structures growth loops(1:10:50) The importance of aggressive experimentation within new channels(1:16:11) How Covid accelerated growth at HubSpot(1:17:59) Lightning round—Referenced:• Kyle Poyar on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-poyar/• Mariah Muscato on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariahmuscato/• Ken Norton on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-unlock-your-product-leadership-skills-ken-norton-ex-google/• Fareed Mosavat on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/videos/how-to-build-trust-and-grow-as-a-product-leader-fareed-mosavat-reforge-slack-instacart-pixar/• Jules Walter on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/leveraging-mentors-to-uplevel-your-career-jules-walter-youtube-slack/• The Culture Code at HubSpot: https://blog.hubspot.com/blog/tabid/6307/bid/34234/the-hubspot-culture-code-creating-a-company-we-love.aspx• Brian Balfour on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bbalfour/• Dharmesh on Twitter: https://twitter.com/dharmesh• ChatSpot: https://chatspot.ai/• Everybody Lies: Big Data, New Data, and What the Internet Can Tell Us About Who We Really Are: https://www.amazon.com/Everybody-Lies-Internet-About-Really/dp/0062390856• Chop Wood Carry Water: How to Fall in Love with the Process of Becoming Great: https://www.amazon.com/Chop-Wood-Carry-Water-Becoming/dp/153698440X• The Score Takes Care of Itself: My Philosophy of Leadership: https://www.amazon.com/Score-Takes-Care-Itself-Philosophy/dp/1591843472/• I’m a Virgo on Amazon Prime: https://www.amazon.com/Im-A-Virgo-Season-1/dp/B0B8PXXV2M• Barry on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/barry• Succession on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/succession• Building a great product management organization: https://stripe.com/it-es/guides/atlas/building-a-great-pm-org• Garmin watch: https://www.amazon.com/Garmin-010-02174-01-Vivoactive-Smartwatch-Refurbished/dp/B0BPCNKBW1• Fernet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernet—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Ezra—The leading full-body cancer screening company | Coda—Meet the evolution of docs | Attio—The powerful, flexible CRM for fast-growing startups—Geoff Charles is VP of Product at Ramp—the fastest-growing SaaS startup of all time, Fast Company’s #1 Most Innovative Company in North America, and a company I believe we should all study for how they operate, execute, and hire. At Ramp, Geoff has led the product team from the early days, including the development and release of 60+ products and features in the past year alone. He has been building financial services for over a decade, and his interview in Lenny’s Newsletter quickly became one of the most widely read newsletter issues of all time. In today’s podcast, we will discuss:• How velocity is at the heart of Ramp’s culture and success• How writing can unlock clarity, creativity, and rapid problem-solving• How to empower your product team through context sharing• How to practically approach problems from first principles• How Ramp approaches hiring in a unique way• Suggestions for breaking into the world of product management—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/velocity-over-everything-how-ramp-became-the-fastest-growing-saas-startup-of-all-time-geoff-charl/#transcript—Where to find Geoff Charles:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/geoffintech• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/geoffrey-charles/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Geoff’s background(04:49) An overview of Ramp(06:20) The importance of velocity at Ramp(08:50) Single-threaded goals and how to keep teams away from distractions(13:20) Setting lofty goals(15:17) How Ramp empowers teams(17:37) How Geoff’s management style has evolved at Ramp(19:55) The product design process at Ramp(21:19) Ramp’s system for sharing feedback(23:07) How Ramp handles bug fixes (24:15) Advice for PMs who want to move faster(29:29) Why velocity and impact can help protect against burnout(32:33) Planning vs. doing(37:54) Ramp’s strategy documents (40:55) Finding your unique positioning(42:46) OKRs(44:53) The importance of first-principle thinking(48:53) How to use writing to think through problems (51:46) How Geoff carves out time for deep work(54:05) How Geoff manages tasks and stays organized(57:15) Why other roles share the PM load at Ramp(1:00:30) PM responsibilities at Ramp(1:01:46) Identifying A+ talent(1:06:02) The skills Ramp looks for when hiring(1:07:33) Advice for people wanting to break into product management (1:10:37) Lightning round—Referenced:• How Ramp builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-ramp-builds-product• Bill: https://www.bill.com/• Expensify: https://www.expensify.com/• Concur: https://www.concur.com/• Coupa: https://www.coupa.com/• Nicole Forsgren on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-measure-and-improve-developer-productivity-nicole-forsgren-microsoft-research-github-goo/• Sheryl Sandberg on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheryl-sandberg-5126652/• Getting Things Done: https://www.amazon.com/Getting-Things-Done-Stress-Free-Productivity/dp/0143126563• When Breath Becomes Air: https://www.amazon.com/When-Breath-Becomes-Paul-Kalanithi/dp/081298840X• The Bear on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/the-bear-05eb6a8e-90ed-4947-8c0b-e6536cbddd5f• Whoop: https://www.whoop.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

This episode is brought to you by DX—a platform for measuring and improving developer productivity.—Dr. Nicole Forsgren is a developer productivity and DevOps expert who works with engineering organizations to make work better. Best known as co-author of the Shingo Publication Award-winning book Accelerate and the DevOps Handbook, 2nd edition and author of the State of DevOps Reports, she has helped some of the biggest companies in the world transform their culture, processes, tech, and architecture. Nicole is currently a Partner at Microsoft Research, leading developer productivity research and strategy, and a technical founder/CEO with a successful exit to Google. In a previous life, she was a software engineer, sysadmin, hardware performance engineer, and professor. She has published several peer-reviewed journal papers, has been awarded public and private research grants (funders include NASA and the NSF), and has been featured in the Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Computerworld, and InformationWeek. In today’s podcast, we discuss:• Two frameworks for measuring developer productivity: DORA and SPACE• Benchmarks for what good and great look like• Common mistakes to avoid when measuring developer productivity• Resources and tools for improving your metrics• Signs your developer experience needs attention• How to improve your developer experience• Nicole’s Four-Box framework for thinking about data and relationships—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-measure-and-improve-developer—Where to find Nicole Forsgren:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/nicolefv• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolefv/• Website: https://nicolefv.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Nicole’s background(07:55) Unpacking the terms “developer productivity,” “developer experience,” and “DevOps”(10:06) How to move faster and improve practices across the board(13:43) The DORA framework(18:54) Benchmarks for success(22:33) Why company size doesn’t matter (24:54) How to improve DevOps capabilities by working backward(29:23) The SPACE framework and choosing metrics(32:51) How SPACE and DORA work together(35:39) Measuring satisfaction(37:52) Resources and tools for optimizing metrics(41:29) Nicole’s current book project(45:43) Common pitfalls companies run into when rolling out developer productivity/optimizations(47:42) How the DevOps space has progressed(50:07) The impact of AI on the developer experience and productivity(54:04) First steps to take if you’re trying to improve the developer experience(55:15) Why Google is an example of a company implementing DevOps solutions well(56:11) The importance of clear communication(57:32) Nicole’s Four-Box framework(1:05:15) Advice on making decisions (1:08:56) Lightning round—Referenced:• Chef: https://www.chef.io/• DORA: https://dora.dev/• GitHub: https://github.com/• Microsoft Research: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/• What is DORA?: https://devops.com/what-is-dora-and-why-you-should-care/• Dustin Smith on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dustin-smith-b0525458/• Nathen Harvey on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nathen/• What is CI/CD?: https://about.gitlab.com/topics/ci-cd/• Trunk-based development: https://cloud.google.com/architecture/devops/devops-tech-trunk-based-development• DORA DevOps Quick Check: https://dora.dev/quickcheck/• Accelerate: The Science of Lean Software and DevOps: Building and Scaling High Performing Technology Organizations: https://www.amazon.com/Accelerate-Software-Performing-Technology-Organizations/dp/1942788339• The SPACE of Developer Productivity: https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3454124• DevOps Metrics: Nicole Forsgren and Mik Kersten: https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3182626• How to Measure Anything: Finding the Value of Intangibles in Business: https://www.amazon.com/How-Measure-Anything-Intangibles-Business/dp/1118539273/• GitHub Copilot: https://github.com/features/copilot• Tabnine: https://www.tabnine.com/the-leading-ai-assistant-for-software-development• Nicole’s Decision-Making Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wItAODkhZ-zKnnFbyDERCd8Hq2NQ03WPvCfigBQ5vpc/edit?usp=sharing• How to do linear regression and correlation analysis: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/linear-regression-and-correlation-analysis• Good Strategy/Bad Strategy: The difference and why it matters: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Strategy-Bad-difference-matters/dp/1781256179/• Designing Your Life: How to Build a Well-Lived, Joyful Life: https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Your-Life-Well-Lived-Joyful/dp/1101875321• Ender’s Game: https://www.amazon.com/Enders-Game-Ender-Quintet-1/dp/1250773024/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0• Suits on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/70195800• Ted Lasso on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/ted-lasso• Never Have I Ever on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80179190• Eight Sleep: https://www.eightsleep.com/• COSRX face masks: https://www.amazon.com/COSRX-Advanced-Secretion-Hydrating-Moisturizing/dp/B08JSL9W6K/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Mixpanel—Event analytics that everyone can trust, use, and afford | Round—The private network built by tech leaders for tech leaders | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments—Ronny Kohavi, PhD, is a consultant, teacher, and leading expert on the art and science of A/B testing. Previously, Ronny was Vice President and Technical Fellow at Airbnb, Technical Fellow and corporate VP at Microsoft (where he led the Experimentation Platform team), and Director of Data Mining and Personalization at Amazon. He was also honored with a lifetime achievement award by the Experimentation Culture Awards in September 2020 and teaches a popular course on experimentation on Maven. In today’s podcast, we discuss:• How to foster a culture of experimentation• How to avoid common pitfalls and misconceptions when running experiments• His most surprising experiment results• The critical role of trust in running successful experiments• When not to A/B test something• Best practices for helping your tests run faster• The future of experimentation—Enroll in Ronny’s Maven class: Accelerating Innovation with A/B Testing at https://bit.ly/ABClassLenny. Promo code “LENNYAB” will give $500 off the class for the first 10 people to use it.—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-ab-testing—Where to find Ronny Kohavi:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/ronnyk• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ronnyk/• Website: http://ai.stanford.edu/~ronnyk/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Ronny’s background(04:29) How one A/B test helped Bing increase revenue by 12%(09:00) What data says about opening new tabs(10:34) Small effort, huge gains vs. incremental improvements (13:16) Typical fail rates(15:28) UI resources(16:53) Institutional learning and the importance of documentation and sharing results(20:44) Testing incrementally and acting on high-risk, high-reward ideas(22:38) A failed experiment at Bing on integration with social apps(24:47) When not to A/B test something(27:59) Overall evaluation criterion (OEC)(32:41) Long-term experimentation vs. models(36:29) The problem with redesigns(39:31) How Ronny implemented testing at Microsoft(42:54) The stats on redesigns (45:38) Testing at Airbnb(48:06) Covid’s impact and why testing is more important during times of upheaval (50:06) Ronny’s book, Trustworthy Online Controlled Experiments: A Practical Guide to A/B Testing(51:45) The importance of trust(55:25) Sample ratio mismatch and other signs your experiment is flawed(1:00:44) Twyman’s law(1:02:14) P-value(1:06:27) Getting started running experiments(1:07:43) How to shift the culture in an org to push for more testing(1:10:18) Building platforms(1:12:25) How to improve speed when running experiments(1:14:09) Lightning round—Referenced:• Trustworthy Online Controlled Experiments: A Practical Guide to A/B Testing: https://experimentguide.com/• Seven rules of thumb for website experimenters: https://exp-platform.com/rules-of-thumb/• GoodUI: https://goodui.org• Defaults for A/B testing: http://bit.ly/CH2022Kohavi• Ronny’s LinkedIn post about A/B testing for startups: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/ronnyk_abtesting-experimentguide-statisticalpower-activity-6982142843297423360-Bc2U• Sanchan Saxena on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/sanchan-saxena-vp-of-product-at-coinbase-on-the-inside-story-of-how-airbnb-made-it-through-covid-what-he8217s-learned-from-brian-chesky-brian-armstrong-and-kevin-systrom-much-more/• Optimizely: https://www.optimizely.com/• Optimizely was statistically naive: https://analythical.com/blog/optimizely-got-me-fired• SRM: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/ronnyk_seat-belt-wikipedia-activity-6917959519310401536-jV97• SRM checker: http://bit.ly/srmCheck• Twyman’s law: http://bit.ly/twymanLaw• “What’s a p-value” question: http://bit.ly/ABTestingIntuitionBusters• Fisher’s method: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher%27s_method• Evolving experimentation: https://exp-platform.com/Documents/2017-05%20ICSE2017_EvolutionOfExP.pdf• CUPED for variance reduction/increased sensitivity: http://bit.ly/expCUPED• Ronny’s recommended books: https://bit.ly/BestBooksRonnyk• Chernobyl on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/chernobyl• Blink cameras: https://blinkforhome.com/• Narrative not PowerPoint: https://exp-platform.com/narrative-not-powerpoint/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Sidebar—Catalyze your career with a Personal Board of Directors | Superhuman—The fastest email experience ever made | Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.—Noah Weiss is Chief Product Officer at Slack, where he leads all aspects of the product organization, including the self-service SMB business, the team that launched huddles and clips, and the search and machine-learning teams. Prior to Slack, Noah served as SVP of Product at Foursquare. He started his career at Google, leading the structured data search team and working on display ads. In today’s episode, we discuss:• The top 10 traits of great PMs• How “complaint storms” helped Slack teams foster empathy• How Slack’s product team is approaching AI• “Comprehension desirability” and other key factors leading to Slack’s success• Why you should be customer-aware but not customer-obsessed• Important areas of growth for both new PMs and senior PMsCurious to learn more about Slack? You can try Slack Pro and get 50% off using this link.—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-10-traits-of-great-pms-how-ai—Where to find Noah Weiss:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/noah_weiss• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/noahw/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Noah’s background(04:22) Noah’s advice on new parenthood(07:23) Lessons learned from leading product at Foursquare(11:33) Advice for working with strongly opinionated founders(14:14) Thinking of involvement on a U-shaped curve(16:53) Principles at Slack(19:32) Implementing ML, AI, and LLMs in meaningful ways(25:11) How Slack structures AI teams(26:59) Complaint storms and how they help foster empathy(30:01) Slack’s approach to prioritization (32:26) How delight is baked into the DNA of Slack(34:41) How Slack thinks about competition (38:04) Building a culture that takes big bets(41:40) Rituals at Slack(44:51) How Slack unlocked new levers of growth and revived their self-serve business(52:01) Slack’s early success and the factors that made them successful (58:08) Slack’s pilot programs for testing new features(1:02:03) Noah’s famous blog post: “The 10 Traits of Great Product Managers”(1:10:15) Book recommendations to improve your writing(1:12:30) Managing up and the importance of data fluency(1:14:54) The most important skills to improve as an early-career PM and as a senior PM(1:17:16) Lightning round—Referenced:• Emily Oster: https://emilyoster.net/• Dennis Crowley: https://denniscrowley.com/• Stewart Butterfield on Twitter: https://twitter.com/stewart• Don’t Make Me Think, Revisited: A Common Sense Approach to Web Usability: https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Make-Think-Revisited-Usability/dp/0321965515• Gustav Söderström on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/lessons-from-scaling-spotify-the-science-of-product-taking-risky-bets-and-how-ai-is-already-impacting-the-future-of-music-gustav-soderstrom-co-president-cpo-and-cto-at-spotify/• Seth Godin: https://seths.blog/• Noah’s blog post on the 10 traits of great PMs: https://medium.com/@noah_weiss/10-traits-of-great-pms-a7776cd3d9cd• Five Dangerous Myths about Product Management: https://medium.com/@noah_weiss/five-dangerous-myths-about-product-management-d1d852ed02a2• Paul Graham: http://paulgraham.com/• Ben Horowitz on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bhorowitz• On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft: https://www.amazon.com/Writing-Memoir-Craft-Stephen-King/dp/1982159375• On Writing Well: The Classic Guide to Writing Nonfiction: https://www.amazon.com/Writing-Well-Classic-Guide-Nonfiction/dp/0060891548• Nobody Wants to Read Your Sh*t: And Other Tough-Love Truths to Make You a Better Writer: https://www.amazon.com/Nobody-Wants-Read-Your-Tough-Love/dp/1936891492• Several Short Sentences About Writing: https://www.amazon.com/Several-Short-Sentences-About-Writing/dp/0307279413• Paige Costello on Twitter: https://twitter.com/paigenow• Creative Selection: Inside Apple's Design Process During the Golden Age of Steve Jobs: https://www.amazon.com/Creative-Selection-Inside-Apples-Process/dp/1250194466• The Innovator’s Dilemma: When New Technologies Cause Great Firms to Fail: https://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Technologies-Management-Innovation/dp/1633691780• Radical Candor: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Candor-Revised-Kim-Scott/dp/1250258405• Leadership: In Turbulent Times: https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Turbulent-Doris-Kearns-Goodwin/dp/1476795924• Succession on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/succession• The Bear on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/the-bear-05eb6a8e-90ed-4947-8c0b-e6536cbddd5f• Nanit: https://www.nanit.com/• Snoo: https://www.happiestbaby.com/products/snoo-smart-bassinet• Uppababy: https://uppababy.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Miro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life | Brave Search API—An independent, global search index you can use to power your search or AI app | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments—Hari Srinivasan is VP of Product at LinkedIn Talent Solutions, where he oversees LinkedIn Recruiter, LinkedIn Jobs, and LinkedIn Learning. He’s also a frequent guest lecturer at Stanford University. Previously, he served as the CEO and founder of We Created It, which was acquired by LinkedIn in 2014. Hari has a passion for building products, with experience ranging from creating the first U.S. hybrid SUV to developing a No. 1 app and writing a beloved children’s book. In today’s episode, we discuss:• LinkedIn’s unique business model and org structure• How to optimize your LinkedIn experience and improve your chances of getting a PM role• How to adapt to a skills-first talent market• The story of Hari’s failed first product review, and how he pivoted for success• Strategies for building and maintaining complex systems• How to get into product management—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/linkedins-product-evolution-and-the—Where to find Hari Srinivasan:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hsrinivasan1/• Website: https://www.mindofhari.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Hari’s background(05:04) How Twitter brought Lenny and Hari together(06:32) LinkedIn’s positive evolution, and what they did right(10:14) Specific changes that made LinkedIn’s feed more interesting(11:12) Understanding the algorithm and what kinds of content perform best(12:21) The talent solution product(15:46) The shift to skills-first hiring, and how LinkedIn changed their approach(20:24) The open-to-work signal, and the newly released open-to-internal-work signal(22:13) The PM talent landscape, and tips for landing a PM role(24:55) How to optimize your LinkedIn profile to get noticed by recruiters(28:38) Hari’s first product review at LinkedIn(30:38) LinkedIn’s North Star, and how to operationalize the North Star at any company(33:24) LinkedIn’s members-first value(35:32) Building and maintaining complex systems(38:09) The RAPID framework and the Five-Day Alignment framework(39:51) What LinkedIn looks for in new hires(40:51) The latest innovations at LinkedIn(43:16) LinkedIn Learning(45:00) Hari’s product management course(48:19) Advice for people hoping to get into product management(50:40) How to level up your PM skills(51:57) Hari’s creative side projects (55:02) Lightning round—Referenced:• Tweet from TheCuriousPM: https://twitter.com/zatin_jatin/status/1658616200560254978?s=20• The Curious PM on Twitter: https://twitter.com/zatin_jatin• Decision-making at LinkedIn: https://engineering.linkedin.com/blog/2018/03/scaling-decision-making-across-teams-within-linkedin-engineering• LinkedIn Learning: https://www.linkedin.com/learning• Thinking in Systems: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Systems-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/1603580557• Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow: https://www.amazon.com/Tomorrow-novel-Gabrielle-Zevin/dp/0593321200• An Immense World: How Animal Senses Reveal the Hidden Realms Around Us: https://www.amazon.com/Immense-World-Animal-Senses-Reveal/dp/0593133234• Star Wars on Disney+: https://www.disneyplus.com/brand/star-wars• Case 63 on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4c9ZKaFtEKweSYOlYvxfvp• E.T. on Tubi: https://tubitv.com/movies/607451/e-t-the-extra-terrestrial• BriteBrush: https://www.amazon.com/BriteBrush-Interactive-Smart-Toothbrush-featuring/dp/B07VLL8QH4—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security | Superhuman—The fastest email experience ever made | AssemblyAI—Production-ready AI models to transcribe and understand speech—Julia Schottenstein is a product lead at dbt Labs, a data transformation company, and an active angel investor in data and infrastructure startups. She first got excited about dbt in 2019 when she was a VC at NEA and decided to make the leap from investor to operator by joining dbt Labs. She also co-hosts the dbt Labs Analytics Engineering Podcast, a show about data trends that impact analytics engineers’ work. In today’s episode, we discuss:• Advice for founders hoping to improve their M&A outcome• How to strategically think about competition• How to determine your paid features and have willingness-to-pay conversations• Why Julia lives by “worse is better” and “tech debt is a champagne problem”• Lessons from dbt Labs• What PMs can learn from investors—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/m-and-a-competition-pricing-and-investing—Where to find Julia Schottenstein:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/j_schottenstein• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julia-schottenstein-25424318/• Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/4BKMMeVXk4jJnAQSqGSJvE—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Julia’s background(04:15) How Julia went from VC to working in product at dbt Labs(08:24) Four things Julia uses to evaluate a company’s potential (11:10) How to identify whether or not you have product-market fit(12:05) Distribution strategies(13:11) M&A strategies(15:54) Lessons from the Transform acquisition(18:01) Competitive values at dbt(20:25) Keys to dbt’s success(26:35) An offsite exercise Julia used to help her team internalize upcoming changes(29:32) Determining what features are included in open source(31:56) Pricing and willingness to pay(33:34) Lessons from dbt Labs’s first pricing change(36:33) Whether or not to be public about selling your startup(40:08) How to utilize connections during acquisitions(44:57) How to communicate selling your company(46:33) M&A market forecast(47:28) Values at dbt Labs (50:14) Lessons from working with strongly opinionated users(52:02) The importance of shipping, learning, and iterating (54:08) How VC skills translate into product(57:03) Lightning round—Referenced:• dbt Labs: https://www.getdbt.com/• Tristan Handy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tristanhandy/• dbt Labs acquires Transform to enhance Semantic Layer tool: https://www.techtarget.com/searchbusinessanalytics/news/365530993/DBT-Labs-acquires-Transform-to-enhance-Semantic-Layer-tool• Snowflake: https://www.snowflake.com/en/• Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid: https://www.amazon.com/G%C3%B6del-Escher-Bach-Eternal-Golden/dp/0465026567• Red strings training clip from Ted Lasso: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVe3Iwy10MA• Monetizing Innovation: https://www.amazon.com/Monetizing-Innovation-Companies-Design-Product/dp/1119240867• Madhavan Ramanujam on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-art-and-science-of-pricing-madhavan#details• Pricing survey: https://www.qualtrics.com/marketplace/vanwesterndorp-pricing-sensitivity-study/• Hunter Walk’s blog post about publicly selling your startup: https://hunterwalk.com/2023/05/13/the-acquihire-market-for-early-stage-startups-is-ice-cold-one-better-strategy-announce-youre-for-sale/• Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World: https://www.amazon.com/Range-Generalists-Triumph-Specialized-World/dp/0735214506/• The Snowball: Warren Buffett and the Business of Life: https://www.amazon.com/Snowball-Warren-Buffett-Business-Life/dp/0553384619/r• Sam Walton: Made in America: https://www.amazon.com/Sam-Walton-Made-America/dp/0553562835• Succession on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/succession• In Depth podcast: https://review.firstround.com/podcast• dbt community Slack: https://www.getdbt.com/community/join-the-community/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Brave—The independent, global search index you can use to power your search or AI app | Attio—The powerful, flexible CRM for fast-growing startups | Round—The private network built by tech leaders for tech leaders—Paige Costello is a beloved product leader with a reputation as a remarkable coach and mentor. She is currently the Head of Core Product at Asana, where she leads the group responsible for Asana’s web, desktop, and mobile apps. Prior to that role, she served as the Director of Product at Intercom and, before that, as a Group PM at Intuit, where she kickstarted her product career through their renowned APM program. In today’s episode, we discuss:• The unique product development process at Asana and how it’s evolved• The double-diamond framework• Conscious leadership training, and why every Asana employee learns it• How to demonstrate confidence and earn trust from skeptics• Why curiosity and openness may be the most important PM competencies• How to give feedback using impact statements—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-ask-the-right-questions-project—Where to find Paige Costello:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/paigenow• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paigecostello/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Paige’s background(04:38) What Paige is responsible for at Asana(06:04) The evolution of Asana’s product development process(09:10) Planning frequency(11:26) Examples of areas and metric tracking at Asana(12:46) The double-diamond process and how it’s applied at Asana(16:53) Asana’s office-centric hybrid work culture and the future of WFH(21:45) How to garner trust and win over skeptics(24:45) Why you should befriend researchers(26:17) How to exude confidence(29:03) The 3Es framework(33:43) Advice for early-career PMs(38:43) Paige’s latest pillars strategy(40:05) AI at Asana(41:50) Lessons from Paige’s time at Intuit(45:53) Challenges new PMs face(48:55) Challenges Paige has faced in her career(52:39) Paige’s skill-focused career philosophy(55:43) Lightning round—Referenced:• Use This Equation to Determine, Diagnose, and Repair Trust: https://review.firstround.com/use-this-equation-to-determine-diagnose-and-repair-trust• About conscious leadership at Asana: https://wavelength.asana.com/workstyle-simple-shift/• The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership: A New Paradigm for Sustainable Success: https://www.amazon.com/15-Commitments-Conscious-Leadership-Sustainable/dp/0990976904• Intuit: https://www.intuit.com/• Inspired: How to Create Tech Products Customers Love: https://www.amazon.com/INSPIRED-Create-Tech-Products-Customers/dp/1119387507• The Blind Assassin: https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Assassin-Novel-Margaret-Atwood/dp/0385720955• The Alchemist: https://www.amazon.com/Alchemist-Paulo-Coelho/dp/0062315005• The Diplomat on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81288983• Fire of Love on Disney+: https://www.disneyplus.com/movies/fire-of-love/1hC7erRfsl3B• Poe: https://poe.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Brave Search API—An independent, global search index you can use to power your search or AI app | Miro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life | Superhuman—The fastest email experience ever made—Jiaona Zhang (JZ) is a product leader with a strong background in consumer products and extensive hiring and management experience. She is currently SVP of Product at Webflow as well as a lecturer at Stanford, where she teaches a graduate-level course on product management. Before Webflow, JZ was Head of Product for the Homes Platform at Airbnb and has also led product teams at Airbnb, WeWork, and Dropbox. In today’s episode, we discuss:• Building a “minimum lovable product” rather than a minimum viable product• How to create better roadmaps through storytelling• Top lessons from Dropbox, Airbnb, WeWork, and Webflow• The importance of setting ambitious OKRs• JZ’s first 90 days playbook: how to succeed in a new role• Advice for early-career PMs—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-minimum-lovable-products—Where to find Jiaona Zhang:• Reforge: https://www.reforge.com/managing-your-pm-career• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jiaona/• Website: https://www.jiaonazhang.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) JZ’s background(04:22) Common mistakes new PMs make(06:44) Why Airbnb Plus didn’t work out, and takeaways from that experience(10:51) Executing big dreams step-by-step(13:45) The right way to push back against founders(16:54) Minimum lovable product vs. minimum viable product(20:53) What makes a product lovable(22:20) Advice on roadmapping and prioritization(28:04) Tips for new PMs to accelerate their career(29:16) JZ’s top skills and how they have evolved over her career(31:37) Designing crisp OKRs(36:09) Lessons from WeWork(43:01) Winning the first 90 days at a new company(48:34) Why trust is crucial(51:48) High-level lessons from Dropbox, Airbnb, WeWork, and Webflow(56:38) The one piece of advice that transformed JZ’s career(58:39) Lightning round—Referenced:• Mike Lewis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikelewis/• “What working at Figma taught me about customer obsession,” VP of Product Sho Kuwamoto: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-working-at-figma-taught-me-about• WeWork: https://www.wework.com/• WeCrashed on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/wecrashed/umc.cmc.6qw605uv2rwbzutk2p2fsgvq9• Sprint: How to Solve Big Problems and Test New Ideas in Just Five Days: https://www.amazon.com/Sprint-Solve-Problems-Test-Ideas/dp/150112174X• The Making of a Manager: What to Do When Everyone Looks to You: https://www.amazon.com/Making-Manager-What-Everyone-Looks/dp/0735219567• Tress of the Emerald Sea: A Cosmere Novel: https://www.amazon.com/Tress-Emerald-Sea-Brandon-Sanderson/dp/1250899656/• Arcane on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81435684• Snoo: https://www.happiestbaby.com/• Midjourney: https://www.midjourney.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Attio—The powerful, flexible CRM for fast-growing startups | Coda—Meet the evolution of docs | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments—Sri Batchu currently leads growth at Ramp, the fastest-growing SaaS business (and fintech business) in history. Previously, he led growth strategy and operations at Instacart and was one of the first 50 employees at Opendoor, where he built, scaled, and managed a variety of business teams, including analytics, sales, and pricing. During his time there, the company grew from $100M to $5B+ in revenue and to 1,500+ people. In this episode, we discuss:• The surprising tactics behind Ramp’s unprecedented early growth• A breakdown of Ramp’s current growth org and growth channels• Why you need to be “failing conclusively”• Ramp’s unique approach to metrics and measurement• Examples of Ramp’s “secret sauce”: a data- and technology-driven approach to everything• Why Sri prioritizes employee autonomy and flexibility over hours worked• Why team structure is a red herring for growth teams, and what Sri focuses on instead• How to set good North Star metrics, and why you should have more than one• Why Sri prefers payback periods over CAC for measuring investment ROI—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-scaling-ramp-sri-batchu—Where to find Sri Batchu:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/sri_batchu• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sribatchu/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Sri’s background(04:07) Stats surrounding Ramp’s hypergrowth(06:20) How Ramp set the stage for their remarkable growth(09:19) New customers vs. customer expansion(10:20) How Ramp has prioritized data-driven decisions(12:12) Ramp’s growth engineering team, and how it supports the sales team(13:41) The structure of the growth team at Ramp(14:36) The “skunk works” team(15:49) How Ramp maintains working at such high velocity(19:11) How Ramp boosts morale and keeps employees engaged and excited(21:45) How to promote hard work(25:10) Optimizing efficiency in your growth engine(27:28) Leveraging PR and fundraising(29:20) Traditional media vs. newsletters and podcasts(30:49) Building a repeatable and scalable growth process(32:28) Examples of good North Star metrics(37:09) Lower-level metrics(40:30) When it makes sense to use the North Star framework(42:03) Why Ramp doesn’t allow signups through personal emails, and how to reach out if you’re in that position(43:11) Efficiency metrics and volume metrics(46:49) Payback period vs. CAC for measuring ROI(48:55) Defining payback period and contribution margin(49:51) How to sequence growth tactics for B2B(52:18) Experimentation and the importance of failing conclusively(58:06) Ramp’s tool stack(1:00:32) How to hire great people(1:03:21) The importance of compensating employees properly(1:06:28) The MECE framework(1:09:21) Lightning round—Referenced:• How Ramp builds product, in Lenny’s Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-ramp-builds-product• Eight Sleep: https://www.eightsleep.com/• Keith Rabois on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/keith/• Packy McCormick’s article on Ramp: https://www.notboring.co/p/ramps-double-unicorn-rounds-behind• Gibson Biddle’s framework: https://gibsonbiddle.medium.com/9-the-gem-model-65c89face5de• DoorDash’s business model: https://businessmodelanalyst.com/doordash-business-model/• Airtable: https://www.airtable.com/• Mutiny: https://www.mutinyhq.com/• Gokul Rajaram on Twitter: https://twitter.com/gokulr• Claire Hughes Johnson on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/lessons-from-scaling-stripe/• MECE principle: https://productfolio.com/mece-principal/• Never Split the Difference: Negotiating as If Your Life Depended on It: https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-Depended/dp/0062407805• Stories of Your Life and Others: https://www.amazon.com/Stories-Your-Life-Others-Chiang/dp/1101972122/r• Everything Everywhere All at Once on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/movie/everything-everywhere-all-at-once-fa320000-8cf3-46fc-8c45-df5ec67b71f2• Fellow kettles: https://fellowproducts.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by AssemblyAI—Production-ready AI models to transcribe and understand speech | Mixpanel—Product analytics that everyone can trust, use, and afford | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments—Melissa Tan is an advisor, investor, and growth expert. She’s worked with fast-growing startups like Dropbox, Canva, Grammarly, and Miro, and for the past 2.5 years has been the Head of Growth at Webflow. There, she led the company's self-service business across Product, Marketing, and Growth, in addition to leading the charge on pricing and packaging. Prior to Webflow, she was Head of Growth for Dropbox’s B2B product, where she played a pivotal role in propelling their growth. In today’s episode, we discuss:• Attributes of high-performing teams• Tips for developing talent and seeking a mentor• How to create a strong culture of ownership• Frameworks for hiring PM and growth talent• Common pitfalls companies face when implementing growth strategies• Lessons from scaling Dropbox• The DACI framework for increasing team velocity• How to actually embrace first-principles thinking—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-high-performing-teams-melissa—Where to find Melissa Tan:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/melissamtan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissamtan/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Melissa’s background(04:12) What’s next for Melissa(06:45) Lessons learned from Dropbox(11:49) When to add sales to product-led products and vice versa(14:28) Managing people with a people-focused and results-oriented approach(17:14) An example of people-focused leadership(20:26) The importance of talent development and why Melissa invests in it(22:26) Tips for finding a mentor(24:58) Specific questions to ask when you are interviewing for a role(27:49) Companies Melissa has worked with(28:33) Attributes of high-performing teams(31:38) Creating a sense of ownership among team members(34:36) Building a team-first culture(36:54) Avoiding burnout by knowing your limits(39:24) Developing talent and unlocking potential within your organization(42:45) Melissa’s hiring practices and what she looks for in a product manager(44:40) The exact interview sequence Melissa utilizes(49:58) Common pitfalls when creating growth teams(53:43) “Flying formation” and the DACI framework(56:48) Who should own revenue(58:19) When to invest in growth(1:01:06) What to look for in your first growth hire(1:04:35) When it’s appropriate to hire an advisor(1:06:19) First-principles thinking(1:09:50) Lightning round—Referenced:• Jiaona Zhang on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jiaona/• Lean In: Women, Work, and the Will to Lead: https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Women-Work-Will-Lead/dp/0385349947• Tim Ferriss: How to Find a Great Mentor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVo1aZCyfO4• Radical Candor: Be a Kick-Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Candor-Revised-Kick-Ass-Humanity/dp/1250235375/• How to Monetize a Freemium Business: https://www.ycombinator.com/blog/how-to-monetize-a-freemium-business• DACI framework: https://www.productplan.com/glossary/daci/• Leaders Eat Last: Why Some Teams Pull Together and Others Don't: https://www.amazon.com/Leaders-Eat-Last-Together-Others/dp/1591848016/r• The Untethered Soul: The Journey Beyond Yourself: https://www.amazon.com/Untethered-Soul-Journey-Beyond-Yourself/dp/1572245379/• The Four Agreements: https://www.amazon.com/Four-Agreements-Practical-Personal-Freedom/dp/1878424319• Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/winning-time-the-rise-of-the-lakers-dynasty• ChatGPT: https://chat.openai.com/• Webflow: https://webflow.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Mixpanel—Product analytics that everyone can trust, use, and afford | Attio—A powerful, flexible CRM for fast-growing startups | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments—Luc Levesque is Chief Growth Officer at Shopify and has advised companies like Canva, Twitter, Pinterest, and Patreon on growth and product strategy. Previously he served as an executive at TripAdvisor, where he built and led the growth team that helped it become the world’s largest travel site. Luc was then recruited by Mark Zuckerberg to Facebook, where he was an executive and held senior product and engineering leadership roles. In today’s episode, we discuss:• Why you need to become world-class at hiring• Tips for finding a great growth advisor and assessing their impact• Why truly great companies focus on impact• Common mistakes to avoid when building a growth team• The importance of passion and continuous self-improvement• Signs your company should explore SEO as a growth channel, and strategies to do so• Why Mark Zuckerberg personally recruited Luc and what it taught him about the recruiting process—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/leveraging-growth-advisors-hiring—Where to find Luc Levesque:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/luclevesque• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/luclevesque/• Website: https://luclevesque.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Luc’s background(03:31) Luc’s first MT review at Facebook(07:09) Impact vs. industriousness(09:20) Facebook’s relentless, personalized approach to recruiting talent(13:12) Luc’s hiring playbook(16:56) When to focus on growth and the importance of product-market fit(18:04) What to look for in a growth advisor(23:15) The large impact Luc made from a small conversation(26:52) Advice on compensating advisors(31:35) How to find a good growth advisor using VCs and your network(33:33) The importance of having an in-house person and growth advisors as support(38:15) Tips for becoming a growth advisor(41:59) The power of SEO (45:29) The two buckets of SEO(49:21) Channels of growth(51:49) The potential impact of ChatGPT on Google and SEO(56:04) Advice on hiring an SEO person(58:19) How long it takes for SEO to make an impact(1:00:07) Self-reflection, cold plunge, and other tools Luc uses to excel in his personal and work life(1:06:46) Luc’s famous dinner guild(1:10:33) Lightning round—Referenced:• Luc’s blueprint: https://coda.io/@luc-levesque/blueprint-for-leaders-managers-communicate-your-quirks/my-blueprint-9• Jeff Bezos’s morning routine: https://finty.com/us/daily-routines/jeff-bezos• Spark: The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain: https://www.amazon.com/Spark-Revolutionary-Science-Exercise-Brain/dp/0316113514• Smart Brevity: The Power of Saying More with Less: https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Brevity-Power-Saying-More/dp/1523516976• Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion: https://www.amazon.com/Influence-New-Expanded-Psychology-Persuasion/dp/0062937650/• Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity: https://www.amazon.com/Outlive-Longevity-Peter-Attia-MD/dp/0593236599• Nobody Wants to Read Your Sh*t: And Other Tough-Love Truths to Make You a Better Writer: https://www.amazon.com/Nobody-Wants-Read-Your-Tough-Love/dp/1936891492• The War of Art: Break Through the Blocks and Win Your Inner Creative Battles: https://www.amazon.com/War-Art-Through-Creative-Battles/dp/1936891026• The Legend of Bagger Vance: A Novel of Golf and the Game of Life: https://www.amazon.com/Legend-Bagger-Vance-Novel-Golf/dp/038072751X• Huberman Lab podcast: https://hubermanlab.com/welcome-to-the-huberman-lab-podcast/• The All-In Podcast: https://www.allinpodcast.co/• Renu cold plunge: https://www.renutherapy.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Superhuman—The fastest email experience ever made | Microsoft Clarity—See how people actually use your product | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments—Nikhyl Singhal is VP of Product at Meta, overseeing teams building messaging, groups, stories, and the main Facebook feed. Before that, he served as the Chief Product Officer at Credit Karma and held various leadership roles at Google, leading teams on Google Photos and Google Hangouts. Nikhyl was also co-founder of three startups, including SayNow and Cast Iron Systems, which were acquired by Google and IBM, respectively. Alongside his successful career, he is passionate about coaching and mentoring, sharing his knowledge through the Skip podcast, newsletter and CPO community. In this episode, we discuss:• Finding your North Star and building a long and meaningful career• Why your superpower may actually be holding you back• Wisdom for aspiring product managers in the early stages of their career• Reasons you aren’t getting promoted, and advice on what to change• How to avoid short-term thinking early in your career and how to become a better manager long-term• Signs you work at an “ex-growth” company and that it’s time to leave• Signs the IC path is a reasonable pursuit• The importance of finding a community—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-a-long-and-meaningful-career—Where to find Nikhyl Singhal:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/nikhyl• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nikhyl/• Newsletter: https://theskip.substack.com/• Podcast: https://www.skip.community/• Skip CPO Community: https://www.linkedin.com/company/skip-community-for-cpos/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Nikhyl’s background(04:37) Nikhyl’s mentoring approach during critical periods of change(07:07) The power of long-term career planning(10:36) The value of gaining varied experiences rather than merely collecting logos on your resume(12:52) The unique benefits of working at a “MAGMA” company(14:50) Ex-growth companies and the impact of 0% interest rates(20:19) Signs your company may be struggling to find the right product-market fit(21:32) When you should stay at an ex-growth company(22:34) Early career advice for product managers(25:25) Mid-career strategies for promotion(29:47) Summarizing the 4 reasons you may not be getting promoted(30:15) The value of authentic feedback(33:29) Tactical tips for getting better feedback(34:46) Addressing management challenges in tech(39:50) Opportunities for those who prefer the IC path(45:25) How to become a better manager through community building(47:40) Nikhyl’s community, The Skip(51:27) Lenny’s Slack community(52:54) Late-career advice and identifying skills that need reshaping(57:07) Why it’s so important to listen to contradictory feedback(59:45) Nikhyl’s “superpower” and “shadow”(1:02:20) Mental health challenges and the third act of your career(1:08:44) Examples of North Star metrics in the third act of your career(1:12:20) Lightning round—Referenced:• Annie Pearl on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/behind-the-scenes-of-calendlys-rapid-growth-annie-pearl-cpo/• The Skip podcast episode about ex-growth companies: https://www.skip.community/should-i-join-or-leave-an-x-hypergrowth-company/• Jules Walter on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/leveraging-mentors-to-uplevel-your-career-jules-walter-youtube-slack/• Skip Community for CPOs on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/skip-community-for-cpos/• Crossing the Chasm: Marketing and Selling Disruptive Products to Mainstream Customers: https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Chasm-3rd-Disruptive-Mainstream/dp/0062292986/• Leadership and Self-Deception: Getting Out of the Box: https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Self-Deception-Getting-Out-Box/dp/B07H3G1KCN• Rise on Disney+: https://www.disneyplus.com/movies/rise/6Yv1uRnw2uAJ• Arc browser: https://arc.net/• Josh Miller (CEO of The Browser Company) on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/competing-with-giants-an-inside-look-at-how-the-browser-company-builds-product-josh-miller-ceo/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Miro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life | Mixpanel—Product analytics that everyone can trust, use, and afford | Lenny’s Job Board—Hire the best product people. Find the best product gigs—Jeremy Henrickson is Rippling’s SVP of Product, responsible for scaling their product and design team across three continents. Previously, as Chief Product Officer at Coinbase, he oversaw 10x growth of the product and engineering organization and transformed a scrappy startup into a global cryptocurrency platform with tens of millions of users. He began his career at Apple in the 1990s and holds a BS and MS in computer science from Stanford. In today’s episode, we discuss:• Strategies for sustaining focus and momentum at scale• The case against MVPs• The problem with frameworks• “Compound startups” and how this influences Rippling’s product development process• Advice for founders wanting to move faster• Why you don’t understand your product unless you’re “in the weeds”• Hiring practices at Rippling and how young PMs can build fruitful careers—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/moving-fast-and-navigating-uncertainty—Where to find Jeremy Henrickson:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyhenricks• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremyhenrickson/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Jeremy’s background(03:24) What it was like leading product teams at Coinbase during the crypto boom(05:25) How Jeremy kept teams focused and the biggest challenges he faced at Coinbase(07:35) Advice for going through intense periods at work(08:52) Maintaining velocity at scale(12:07) An example of small teams with clear missions(14:29) A model for building products(18:03) Jeremy’s thoughts on MVPs (minimum viable products)(22:26) Designing for the most complex use case first(23:17) What a compound startup is and how it works at Rippling(27:09) Rippling’s unique culture of fast decision-making(28:14) Rippling’s leadership values(32:13) Advice for cultivating fast-decision-making teams(33:44) How deep-level thinking and working on the ground helped Rippling expand to other countries(38:42) Why product leaders need to be right(40:42) How Rippling decided where to expand to first(42:29) The case for expanding internationally before you think you’re ready(45:32) Why Jeremy isn’t a huge fan of frameworks(48:08) The differences between building product at Rippling and Coinbase(52:49) How Jeremy hires PMs at Rippling(58:29) Advice for junior PMs(1:00:19) Lessons from working with a founder who has strong opinions about what the product should be(1:02:15) Lightning round—Referenced:• Coinbase: https://www.coinbase.com/• Ethereum: https://ethereum.org/en/• Parker Conrad on Twitter: https://twitter.com/parkerconrad• Rippling: https://www.rippling.com/• Excellent Advice for Living: Wisdom I Wish I’d Known Earlier: https://www.amazon.com/Excellent-Advice-Living-Wisdom-Earlier/dp/0593654528• Matt MacInnis on Twitter: https://twitter.com/stanine• Rippling’s leadership principles: https://www.rippling.com/life• Airbnb cereal story: https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/18/airbnb-ceo-says-he-wooed-first-investors-with-boxes-of-cereal.html• Guidewire: https://www.guidewire.com/• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira• Kyle Boston on Twitter: https://twitter.com/KyleB• Quicksilver (book one of the Baroque Cycle series:) https://www.amazon.com/Quicksilver-Baroque-Cycle-Vol-1/dp/0060593083/r• Consider Phlebas (book 1 of The Culture series): https://www.amazon.com/Consider-Phlebas-Culture-Iain-Banks/dp/031600538X/• The Last of Us on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/the-last-of-us• The Game on Paramount+: https://www.paramountplus.com/shows/the-game-2021/• Tenet: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6723592/• Corsair H60 CPU cooler: https://www.amazon.com/CORSAIR-Hydro-Liquid-Cooler-Radiator/dp/B00A0HZMGA• Focal Bathys headphones: https://www.amazon.com/Focal-Over-Ear-Bluetooth-Headphones-Cancelation/dp/B0B93YKQT3• Pandemic: https://www.amazon.com/Z-Man-Games-ZM7101-Pandemic/dp/B00A2HD40E• Gloomhaven: https://www.amazon.com/Cephalofair-Games-CPH0201-Gloomhaven/dp/B01LZXVN4P—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Microsoft Clarity—See how people actually use your product | Lenny’s Job Board—Hire the best product people. Find the best product gigs | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments—Nancy Duarte is the CEO of Duarte Inc. and has helped create over 250,000 presentations for influential business leaders across the globe, including Apple, TED, the World Bank, and Al Gore’s An Inconvenient Truth. She’s also written six best-selling books, and her TED talk has garnered over 3 million views. She regularly contributes to HBR, MIT-Sloan, and Forbes, and her books are essential reading in leading business schools worldwide. In today’s episode, we discuss:• Why empathy is at the heart of everything Nancy does• Why you’re presenting more often than you think• Tactics for creating interesting presentations and telling better stories• The concept of a “torchbearer leader” and why it’s important• Strategies for overcoming stage fright and nerves• Tips for communicating and presenting remotely• How Nancy landed Apple as a client and what she learned—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/storytelling-with-nancy-duarte-how—Where to find Nancy Duarte:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/nancyduarte• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nancyduarte/• Website: https://www.duarte.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Nancy’s background(03:25) The insane number of presentations Nancy has helped create(04:52) The most memorable presentation of Nancy’s career, and what it taught her(07:04) The lasting impact of working with Al Gore(09:00) How Nancy landed Apple as a client(11:44) How working with Apple informed future presentations(16:22) 3 things to remember when creating a deck(17:33) The importance of empathy(20:29) Empathy in action(22:40) Why internal presentations are so high-pressure(23:09) Signs you’re doing a good job making the audience the hero of the story(25:38) The structure of great talks(28:08) Lessons from great historical speeches(30:02) You’re presenting more often than you think(32:07) How Nancy uses this story structure in her marriage(35:00) The framework What is? What could be? What is the ideal bliss?(36:07) The importance of visuals(41:12) Slide-making principles (titles, organization, and more)(45:46) The Minto Pyramid Principle(48:02) Think and plan before diving into software(50:00) The Duarte process for crafting presentations(53:18) How remote work has influenced the way we communicate and present (55:46) Strategies for overcoming stage fright and nerves(1:01:10) The concept of “torchbearer leaders” and why it’s important (1:04:54) The surprising truth about informal vs. formal production quality(1:07:37) Examples of PMs telling great stories(1:11:49) Lightning round—Referenced:• Al Gore’s An Inconvenient Truth: https://algore.com/library/an-inconvenient-truth-dvd• Apple’s Think Different campaign: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sMBhDv4sik• The Secret Structure of Great Talks (Nancy’s TED talk): https://www.ted.com/talks/nancy_duarte_the_secret_structure_of_great_talks• The Structure of Great Talks graphic: https://www.google.com/search?q=nancy+duarte+ted+talk+great+story+up+and+down+like+teeth&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi2hoCZmJH_AhVXATQIHb1KC2AQ0pQJegQIBxAB&biw=1512&bih=838&dpr=2#imgrc=5Jei-bDCXe2qQM• I Have a Dream speech by Martin Luther King Jr.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP4iY1TtS3s• The Minto Pyramid Principle: Logic in Writing, Thinking and Problem Solving: https://www.amazon.com/Minto-Pyramid-Principle-Writing-Thinking• The Minto Pyramid Principle and the SCR Framework, by Lenny: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/minto-pyramid-principle-scr• Illuminate: Ignite Change Through Speeches, Stories, Ceremonies, and Symbols: https://www.amazon.com/Illuminate-Through-Speeches-Stories-Ceremonies• Marshall Ganz: https://www.hks.harvard.edu/faculty/marshall-ganz• Brian Chesky: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianchesky/• Airbnb’s Snow White storyboards: https://uxdesign.cc/how-airbnb-proved-that-storytelling-is-the-most-important-skill-in-design-15d04ac71039• The Writer’s Journey: https://www.amazon.com/Writers-Journey-Anniversary-Mythic-Structure• Business Proposal: https://asianwiki.com/Business_Proposal• Writer: https://writer.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Coda—Meet the evolution of docs | Lenny’s Job Board—Hire the best product people. Find the best product gigs | Eco—Your most rewarding app—Andy Raskin helps CEOs align their leadership teams around a strategic narrative—a single story that powers success in sales, marketing, product, fundraising, and recruiting. His clients include Gong, Dropbox, Uber, Salesforce, Square, and IBM. In today’s episode, we discuss:• What a strategic narrative is, and how to craft one• How having a strategic narrative can bring alignment to your entire company• Examples of strategic narratives in action• Who needs a strategic narrative and who doesn’t• Why Andy thinks about movements instead of categories—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-power-of-strategic-narrative—Where to find Andy Raskin:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyraskin/• Website: https://www.andyraskin.com/• Podcast: https://andyraskin.com/podcast/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Andy’s background(08:03) What is a strategic narrative?(10:34) How Salesforce would have pitched the old way(12:02) Examples of a strategic narrative in action (15:23) How one piece of writing skyrocketed Andy’s career(16:40) The power of writing online(17:53) Two paths to writing online(19:27) Naming the old game(20:59) Naming the stakes (23:29) Naming the objective(25:17) Naming the obstacles(26:35) Overcoming the obstacles(26:57) How the strategic narrative parallels the hero’s journey (28:25) Telling one story well vs. being a good storyteller(29:18) The 5-step framework summarized(31:33) An example of the 5-step framework in action(36:12) The impact of shifting to the strategic narrative approach (39:08) Companies that are nailing their strategic narrative (40:36) Why Andy thinks about movements instead of categories(44:15) Should every company have a strategic narrative?(46:33) Signs that something is broken in your strategic narrative(48:53) Steps to get started on your own(51:36) How to reach Andy(51:53) Why the second session is the low point in the process(55:30) Why the CEO needs to be part of the process(57:40) Lightning round—Referenced:• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/• Marc Benioff: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcbenioff/• Zuora: https://www.zuora.com/• The Greatest Sales Deck I’ve Ever Seen: https://medium.com/the-mission/the-greatest-sales-deck-ive-ever-seen-4f4ef3391ba0• Gong: https://www.gong.io/• Tien Tzuo: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tientzuo/• Want a Better Pitch? Master the “Move”: https://medium.com/firm-narrative/want-a-better-pitch-master-the-move-5fbee071ca7f• Star Wars: https://www.starwars.com/• The Hero with a Thousand Faces: https://www.amazon.com/Thousand-Faces-Collected-Joseph-Campbell/dp/1577315936• 360Learning: https://360learning.com/• Nick Hernandez: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicoconut/• Amit Bendov: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amitbendov/• Drift: https://www.drift.com/• OneTrust: https://www.onetrust.com/• “Shitty First Drafts” by Anne Lamott: https://learning.hccs.edu/faculty/pamela.golden/engl2327/shitty-first-drafts-by-anne-lamott/view• Story: https://www.amazon.com/Story-Substance-Structure-Principles-Screenwriting/• Out of Sheer Rage: https://www.amazon.com/Out-Sheer-Rage-Wrestling-Lawrence/• Station Eleven: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10574236/• Fitbit: https://www.fitbit.com/global/us/home• Apple Watch: https://www.apple.com/watch—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Microsoft Clarity—See how people actually use your product | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments | Eco—Your most rewarding app—Gustav Söderström is the Co-President and Chief Product and Technology Officer at Spotify. He is responsible for Spotify’s global product and technology strategy, overseeing the product, design, data, and engineering teams. Prior to Spotify, he founded 13th Lab, a startup that was later acquired by Facebook’s Oculus. He also served as the Director of Product and Business Development for Yahoo Mobile and founded Kenet Works, a company focused on community software for mobile phones, which was acquired by Yahoo in 2006. In today’s episode, we discuss:• How Spotify structures product teams to promote freedom of thought• Lessons on thinking long-term and navigating negative feedback• Why Gustav started a podcast and what he’s learned• How AI has impacted the work PMs, engineers, and designers do within Spotify• AI-generated music and its impact on artists• What’s next for Spotify and Spotify Podcasting—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-scaling-spotify-the—Where to find Gustav Söderström:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/GustavS• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gustavsoderstrom/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Gustav’s background(04:08) The various roles Gustav has occupied at Spotify(06:54) Why Gustav launched a podcast and what he learned(12:37) How PMs and product teams should think about AI(21:23) AI-generated music(26:19) Will AI continue to be a magic trick for products?(28:27) How Spotify organizes product teams(34:33) How Spotify operationalized autonomy(35:45) Why Spotify uses a centralized model for structuring their organization(43:34) The big bet Spotify took with redesigning its interface, and what they learned(57:26) How they tested their hypothesis before launch(1:02:35) Gustav’s “10% planning time” methodology (1:03:53) How to bring energy and clarity to your work(1:08:07) How to systematize deep thinking(1:10:29) The peeing-in-your-pants analogy (1:11:38) Thoughts on how the Swedish culture is portrayed in Succession (1:13:30) What’s next for Spotify and Spotify Podcasting(1:15:52) Lightning round—Referenced:• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/• Daniel Ek: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-ek-1b52093a/• Spotify: A Product Story podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/3L9tzrt0CthF6hNkxYIeSB• Spotify’s AI DJ: https://newsroom.spotify.com/2023-02-22/spotify-debuts-a-new-ai-dj-right-in-your-pocket/• Avicii: https://avicii.com/• DALL-E: https://openai.com/product/dall-e-2• Stable Diffusion: https://stability.ai/• Midjourney: https://www.midjourney.com/• Brian Chesky: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianchesky/• Succession on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/succession• Fjällräven: https://www.fjallraven.com/us/en-us• 7 Powers: The Foundations of Business Strategy: https://www.amazon.com/7-Powers-Foundations-Business-Strategy• Charlie Munger: The Complete Investor: https://www.amazon.com/Charlie-Munger-Tren-Griffin• The Mystery of the Aleph: Mathematics, the Kabbalah, and the Search for Infinity: https://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Aleph-Mathematics-Kabbalah-Infinity• Something Deeply Hidden: Quantum Worlds and the Emergence of Spacetime: https://www.amazon.com/Something-Deeply-Hidden• Helgoland: Making Sense of the Quantum Revolution: https://www.amazon.com/Helgoland-Making-Sense-Quantum-Revolution• The Beginning of Infinity: Explanations That Transform the World: https://www.amazon.com/The-Beginning-of-Infinity• The Fabric of Reality: The Science of Parallel Universes—and Its Implications: https://www.amazon.com/The-Fabric-of-Reality• The Case Against Reality: Why Evolution Hid the Truth from Our Eyes: https://www.amazon.com/The-Case-Against-Reality-audiobook/dp/B07VL5TCVF/ref=sr_1_1• Gödel’s Proof: https://www.amazon.com/G%C3%B6dels-Proof-Ernest-Nagel• The Demon in the Machine: How Hidden Webs of Information Are Solving the Mystery of Life: https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Machine-Information-Solving-Mystery• Halt and Catch Fire on Apple TV: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/halt-and-catch-fire/umc.cmc.5s15r46uj0wx044tipm2zoh88• Duolingo: https://www.duolingo.com/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Braintrust—For when you needed talent, yesterday | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments | Rows—The spreadsheet where data comes to life—Scott Belsky is an entrepreneur, author, investor, and currently Adobe’s Chief Strategy Officer and EVP of Design and Emerging Products. He founded Behance, an online platform for creative professionals to showcase and discover work, and served as CEO until its acquisition by Adobe. Scott is an early advisor and investor in several businesses at the intersection of technology and design, including Pinterest, Uber, Warby Parker, Airtable, and Flexport. He is also the author of two nationally bestselling books and founded 99U, a publication and conference focused on productivity in the creative world. In today’s episode, we discuss:* How to strengthen your product sense* Why you should only do half the things you want* What it takes to build a successful consumer product* Why you are probably underinvesting in onboarding* The future of AI and how to prepare for it* Advice for founders and PMs who are feeling stuck* Why resourcefulness will take you further than resources* Adobe’s current priorities and their exciting path ahead—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-on-building-product-sense—Where to find Scott Belsky:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/scottbelsky• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottbelsky/• Blog: https://www.implications.com/• Website: www.scottbelsky.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Scott’s background(04:50) Why Scott shifted roles at Adobe(08:29) Advice for PMs looking to build product sense(10:43) The first mile(13:18) How to develop more empathy(16:33) How to build consumer products that work(20:42) Scott’s philosophy that you should “only do half the things you want to do”(26:15) Scott’s optimism about how the world will look in five years with AI(29:44) How AI will impact product teams(32:55) How the PM role will change as a result of AI(35:09) How Adobe is leveraging AI tools(36:59) What the term “golden gut” means(38:15) Advice for PMs to stay ahead of the new AI trends(41:02) How to start writing more(41:49) The messy middle(47:03) What Scott looks for as an angel investor (50:16) Why resourcefulness will take you further than resources (52:41) Adobe’s current priorities and the path ahead(54:58) Lightning round —Referenced:• Adobe: https://www.adobe.com/• Behance: https://www.behance.net/• Casey Winters on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/thinking-beyond-frameworks-casey-winters-pinterest-eventbrite-airbnb-tinder-canva-reddit-grubhub/• Crafting The First Mile Of Product: https://medium.com/positiveslope/crafting-the-first-mile-of-product-7ed25e8f1027• Shishir Mehrotra on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-rituals-of-great-teams-shishir-mehrotra-coda-youtube-microsoft/• Scott’s tweet on only doing half the things you want to do: https://twitter.com/scottbelsky/status/1441469886975279109?s=20• Matt Mochary on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-fire-people-with-grace-work-through-fear-and-nurture-innovation-matt-mochary-ceo-coach/• Adobe Firefly: https://www.adobe.com/sensei/generative-ai/firefly• Howie Liu (CEO at Airtable): https://www.linkedin.com/in/howieliu/• ChatGPT: https://openai.com/blog/chatgpt• The Messy Middle: Finding Your Way Through the Hardest and Most Crucial Part of Any Bold Venture by Scott Belsky: https://www.amazon.com/Messy-Middle-Finding-Through-Hardest/dp/0735218072• Adobe Express: https://www.adobe.com/express• Build: An Unorthodox Guide to Making Things Worth Making by Tony Fadell: https://www.amazon.com/Build-Unorthodox-Guide-Making-Things/dp/0063046067• Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey on Netflix: https://dvd.netflix.com/Movie/Cosmos-A-Spacetime-Odyssey/80004448• Vinod Khosla’s prediction: https://futurism.com/80-of-it-jobs-can-be-replaced-by-automation-and-its-exciting• Queue: https://www.queue.co/• Tome: https://tome.app/• Kevin Kelly on The Tim Ferriss Show: https://tim.blog/2014/08/29/kevin-kelly/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Microsoft Clarity—See how people actually use your product | Eco—Your most rewarding app | LMNT—Zero-sugar hydration—Ayo Omojola is Chief Product Officer at Carbon Health, one of the fastest-growing and most innovative health tech companies in the world. Previously, he was a PM leader at Cash App, where he co-created the Cash Card and scaled it to a nine-figure revenue line for Square. He’s also an angel investor in companies like Mercury, Modern Treasury, Faire, and many others. In this episode, we discuss:• How Cash App broke through the noise and became a consumer app success story• Why small teams are better than big ones• Hard-won lessons on team building and hiring• Why it’s “criminal” not to connect people in your network to things that they need• Why you sometimes shouldn’t listen to experts• The importance of first-principles thinking• Advice for health tech founders—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/frameworks-for-product-differentiation-team-building-and-thinking-from-first-principles-ayo-omojola-carbon-health-cash-app/#transcript—Where to find Ayo Omojola:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/ay_o• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/omojola/• Blog: https://kunle.app/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Ayo’s background(04:13) The story of how Ayo used Quora for discoverability (06:44) The scale of Cash App (07:37) What Cash App did well(10:12) Lessons from building consumer apps (13:08) Why it’s so important to be different(14:08) What Ayo learned from how Square/Block operates(16:36) How to succeed at building a startup within a startup(19:06) How Ayo transitioned from fintech to health tech(22:51) Why Ayo loves hiring founders (28:32) Team-building strategies(32:12) The importance of going deep and challenging assumptions(36:58) Why you should always ask questions(38:45) Lessons in leadership(41:43) Advice for founders in the health-care space(44:48) What Carbon Health is(46:58) Lightning round—Referenced:• Ayo on Quora: https://www.quora.com/profile/Ayo-Omojola• Carbon Health: https://carbonhealth.com/• Cash App: https://cash.app/• Lob: https://www.lob.com/• Mailform: https://www.mailform.io/• Venmo: https://venmo.com/• PayPal: https://www.paypal.com/us/home• Apple Cash: https://www.apple.com/apple-cash/• Square: https://squareup.com/us/en/home/• Block: https://block.xyz/• Pinwheel: https://www.pinwheelapi.com/• The Three-Body Problem: https://www.amazon.com/Three-Body-Problem-Cixin-Liu/dp/0765382032• Children of Time: https://www.amazon.com/Children-of-Time• Children of Memory: https://www.amazon.com/Children-Memory-Adrian-Tchaikovsky/• Children of Ruin: https://www.amazon.com/Children-Ruin-Time-Adrian-Tchaikovsky/• Stormlight Archive: https://www.amazon.com/Stormlight-Archive-Boxed-Set-Books/• Fire in the Deep: https://www.amazon.com/Fire-Deep-Robert-J-Miller/• War of the Worlds on Amazon Prime: https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.49a287c2-44ed-4ffc-afa0-fab86dd0d31d• Succession on HBO Max: https://play.hbomax.com/player/urn:hbo:episode:GWukCJAu0e4uHwwEAAAB5• No Context Succession on Twitter: https://twitter.com/nocontextroyco—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Braintrust—For when you needed talent, yesterday | AssemblyAI—Production-ready AI models to transcribe and understand speech | Miro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life—Jonathan Becker is the founder and president of Thrive Digital, where he and his team have deployed more than $3.5 billion in paid acquisition budgets for companies like Uber, Asana, Square, Tempur-Pedic, and MasterClass. He spent the first part of his career mastering SEO and is a world expert in DTC, lead generation, demand generation, and user acquisition. In today’s episode, we discuss:• Signs that your company is a good fit for paid growth• Strategies for optimizing ad creatives• The merits of different marketing channels: paid vs. organic search, TikTok and short-form• Insights on attribution and how to approach it effectively• How market conditions and AI impact paid growth• The crazy story of how Jonathan won Uber as a client—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/mastering-paid-growth-jonathan-becker—Where to find Jonathan Becker:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/jzbecker• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathanbecker123/• Website: https://thrivedigital.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Jonathan’s background(07:25) The crazy story of how Jonathan won Uber as a client(11:56) Interchangeable terms for “paid growth”(12:31) Why you shouldn’t put all your eggs in one basket(16:48) What kind of companies should pursue paid growth(23:07) Is it possible to reach scale exclusively through paid growth?(27:07) The evolution of performance marketing(29:39) Advice for founders choosing between SEO and paid(32:18) Strategies for optimizing ad creatives(44:43) Paid vs. organic search, TikTok and short-form(49:56) Where to spend money in order to drive growth for B2B SaaS(55:06) Attribution in performance marketing (1:04:18) The impact of AI on paid growth(1:12:52) Advice for early-stage startups on hiring in-house vs. hiring an agency (1:17:09) Qualifications to look for in your hires(1:23:23) How Jonathan won Snapchat as a client(1:28:55) Lightning round—Referenced:• Andrew Wilkinson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/awilkinson/• Garrett Camp: https://www.forbes.com/profile/garrett-camp/• TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/• Grammarly: https://app.grammarly.com/• Athletic Greens: https://athleticgreens.com/en• Supermetrics: https://supermetrics.com/• Recast: https://getrecast.com/• Midjourney: https://www.midjourney.com/• DALL-E: https://openai.com/product/dall-e-2• Storyworthy: https://www.amazon.com/Storyworthy-Engage-Persuade-through-Storytelling/dp/1608685489• Shoe Dog: A Memoir by the Creator of Nike: https://www.amazon.com/Shoe-Dog-Memoir-Creator-Nike-ebook/dp/B0176M1A44• American Kingpin: https://www.amazon.com/American-Kingpin-Criminal-Mastermind-Behind/dp/1591848148• The Big Short: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1596363/• White Lotus on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/the-white-lotus—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected] may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Mixpanel—Product analytics that everyone can trust, use, and afford | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments | Braintrust—For when you needed talent, yesterday—David Singleton is Chief Technology Officer at Stripe, where he oversees engineering and design teams. Since joining Stripe, David has helped grow the technology org across the U.S. and developed new engineering hubs in Singapore and Dublin as well as Stripe’s fifth hub, remote engineering, across the globe. Before Stripe, he spent 11 years at Google, where he was VP of Engineering, leading product development and coordinating more than 15 different hardware partnerships. In today’s episode, we cover:• Hiring secrets that set Stripe employees apart• How to build a product-minded engineering team• How to operationalize meticulousness• Strategies for maintaining developer productivity at scale• The process of “friction logging” used to make better products• How AI is changing the way engineers work• Insights for planning and prioritizing at scale—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-a-culture-of-excellence—Where to find David Singleton:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/dps• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidpsingleton/• Website: https://blog.singleton.io/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) David’s background(04:22) How Stripe’s unique hiring process has helped them build an incredible team(12:27) An example of a relentlessly curious and passionate employee(14:11) Structured hiring loops at Stripe(16:39) How Stripe built a product-minded engineering culture(21:56) Stripe’s operating principles (25:39) How Stripe uses “friction logging” to build a meticulous product culture (32:22) How to operationalize friction logging(35:02) How to set PMs up for success(36:53) Stripe’s collaborative approach to product evaluation(41:17) Advice for presenting to CTOs (42:58) How to get better at building products(45:28) Stripe’s “engineerications” and the importance of getting into the weeds as a leader(52:03) Auto-testing and other strategies to improve shipping speeds(59:29) Improving developer productivity(1:00:54) How AI has impacted the way Stripe builds product (1:07:03) Why David is excited about Copilot(1:09:24) Lessons from managing people(1:14:30) Planning and prioritization based on first-principles thinking(1:18:23) Lenny’s feedback from using Stripe(1:19:14) What’s next for Stripe(1:22:10) Lightning round—Referenced:• Stripe: https://stripe.com/• Jeff Weinstein: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffwweinstein/• How we use friction logs to improve products at Stripe: https://dev.to/stripe/how-we-use-friction-logs-to-improve-products-at-stripe-i6p• GitHub Copilot: https://github.com/features/copilot• High Output Management by Andrew Grove: https://www.amazon.com/High-Output-Management-Andrew-Grove/dp/0679762884• Build by Tony Fadell: https://www.amazon.com/Build/dp/1787634116/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0• Scaling People: Tactics for Management and Company Building by Claire Hughes Johnson: https://www.amazon.com/Scaling-People-Tactics-Management-Building/dp/1953953212/• Andrej Karpathy on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@AndrejKarpathy• Midjourney: https://www.midjourney.com/home/• Emily Sands: https://www.linkedin.com/in/egsands/• Michelle Bu: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michellebu/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected] may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Rows—The spreadsheet where data comes to life | Braintrust—For when you needed talent, yesterday | Coda—Meet the evolution of docs—Carilu Dietrich is a former CMO, most notably the Head of Marketing who took Atlassian public. These days she’s an advisor to CEOs and CMOs of hypergrowth B2B companies and has worked with companies like Miro, Segment, Bill.com, 1Password, Productboard, Sprout Social, Weights & Biases, and more. In today’s episode, we discuss:* Patterns across the most successful hypergrowth companies* How to advance in your career, and how to someday become an executive* How to decide which company to work at* Advice for navigating the job market during tough times* How to find and execute new growth opportunities* Why most CMOs and CPOs get fired, and what we can learn from this—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-achieve-hypergrowth-in-your—Where to find Carilu Dietrich:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hypergrowth-advisor/• Newsletter: www.carilu.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/clu007—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Carilu’s background(04:28) Habits and behaviors that will help you reach an executive role(07:15) Why there is no substitute for working hard(08:15) 5 things you need to do to get to the C-suite(10:39) Choosing the right company for accelerated career growth(12:42) Criteria for assessing a phenomenal company(14:41) Asking better questions and making decisions with energy(16:05) Advice for finding a job during a recession (19:25) The importance of quality products and sustained brand advertising(24:06) Lessons from successful hypergrowth companies(28:14) Is word of mouth a necessary growth lever?(31:31) How to accelerate word-of-mouth marketing(35:28) Atlassian’s product-led growth strategy and delayed sales team hiring(39:54) When to hire your first salesperson (43:04) Common growth levers and roadblocks (47:01) How to build trust between CEOs and CMOs(49:00) Challenges of C-suite roles in startups(52:55) Bundling strategies(57:17) Lightning round—Referenced:• Tomasz Tunguz: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomasztunguz/• Denise Persson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/denisepersson/• Oracle: https://www.oracle.com/• Atlassian: https://www.atlassian.com/• Classy: https://www.classy.org/• Snowflake: https://www.snowflake.com/en/• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/• Okta’s “Businesses at Work” 2023: https://www.okta.com/businesses-at-work/• Y U No Use Hipchat billboard: https://techcrunch.com/2011/04/22/y-u-no-have-lame-billboard-hipchat/• Productboard: https://www.productboard.com/• Miro: https://miro.com/• Scott Farquhar: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottfarquhar/• Elena Verna on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-led-sales-elena-verna/• Tao Te Ching, Stephen Mitchell translation: https://www.amazon.com/Tao-Te-Ching-Laozi/dp/0060812451/ref=asc_df_0060812451/• How to Win Friends and Influence People: https://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/8183227899/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0• Never Split the Difference: https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-audiobook/dp/B01COR1GM2/ref=sr_1_1• Everything Everywhere All At Once on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/movie/everything-everywhere-all-at-once-fa320000-8cf3-46fc-8c45-df5ec67b71f2• Tara Brach guided meditations: https://www.tarabrach.com/guided-meditations/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected] may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Linear—The new standard for modern software development | Braintrust—For when you needed talent, yesterday | Rows—The spreadsheet where data comes to life—Elena Verna is a leading growth expert with over 15 years of experience in tech. She was SVP of Growth at SurveyMonkey and interim CMO at Miro, where she built high-performing teams that drove significant growth. She recently served as interim Head of Growth at Amplitude and currently advises and is a board member for early-stage startups. In today’s podcast, we discuss:• What product-led sales is• How product-led sales differs from product-led growth• Unpacking common acronyms: PQAs, PQs, PQLs, and MQLs• When and how to consider investing in PLS• Metrics for identifying qualified accounts• The team, data, and tooling required for implementing PLS• Common pitfalls to avoid when adding PLS—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-led-sales-elena-verna/#transcript—Where to find Elena Verna:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elenaverna• Twitter: https://twitter.com/elenaverna• Newsletter: https://elenaverna.substack.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Elena’s background and what she’s doing now(07:13) Product-led sales (PLS) vs. product-led growth (PLG)(12:47) How sales solutions can be applied to enterprise-level problems(15:06) Defining enterprise-level problems (17:51) How product-led companies start with PLS(20:30) When to add sales(22:36) Two ways to get to PLS(24:27) Why every sales-led-growth company needs to add PLG(26:50) Two ways you can own revenue(28:37) PQAs, PQs, PQLs, and MQLs(37:17) How to get started adding PLS(42:01) Metrics to identify PQAs(47:00) Why sales should be carefully applied (49:07) Systems, infrastructure, and tooling(50:59) The people and resources required for PLS(53:42) Why you should have a clear ROI for every new hire(55:05) Why product needs to be accountable for monetization with PLS(59:57) Revenue-based goals product teams should have(1:06:28) Common pitfalls startups run into when implementing PLS(1:09:15) Benchmarks and the amount of time needed for implementing enterprise solutions(1:12:04) Using onboarding to profile users(1:13:08) Will AI be the next sales movement?—Referenced:• Elena’s previous episode on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/elena-verna-on-how-b2b-growth-is-changing-product-led-growth-product-led-sales-why-you-should-go-freemium-not-trial-what-features-to-make-free-and-much-more/• Miro: https://miro.com/• Figma: https://www.figma.com/• Elena’s PLS funnel diagram: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/elenaverna_b2b-product-led-sales-guide-activity-7052664130763206658-yxLK/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop• Elena’s memes: https://www.elenaverna.com/memes• Mixpanel Signal reports: https://mixpanel.com/blog/mixpanel-signal-launch/• Amplitude Compass chart: https://help.amplitude.com/hc/en-us/articles/235147347-The-Compass-chart-discover-your-users-a-ha-moments• Looker: https://www.looker.com/• Tableau: https://www.tableau.com/• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/• HubSpot: https://www.hubspot.com/• Marketo: https://nation.marketo.com/• Waitlist for PLG course on Reforge: https://www.reforge.com/programs/product-led-growth—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Miro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life | Braintrust—For when you needed talent, yesterday | Linear—The new standard for modern software development—Varun Parmar is the Chief Product Officer of Miro and has over two decades of experience in the tech industry. Prior to joining Miro, Varun held executive positions as Chief Product Officer at Box and Syncplicity (acquired by Dell EMC) and spent six years in product management at Adobe. He also co-founded Doculus, which was later acquired by Box. In today’s episode, we discuss:• The importance of empathy and how to foster it• The “AMPED” structure for cross-functional product teams• How to move fast and stay ahead of the competition• Powerful product and design rituals• How Miro acquired their first 1,000 users• How Miro successfully added a sales motion—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/an-inside-look-at-how-miro-builds—Where to find Varun Parmar:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/vparmar230• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vparmar/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Varun’s background(04:08) How Miro operates as a cross-cultural product team(07:22) How applying empathy helped Miro build Miro Talktrack(11:51) What makes Miro stand out(17:08) Miro’s AMPED structure(22:57) The benefit of having product marketing as a part of the cross-functional team(25:24) How competition affects growth and product strategy(31:43) Why speed is so important and how to improve it(34:21) How Miro ensures that their products meet quality standards(37:19) How to remove blockers(47:22) Miro’s product development process(53:34) How OKRs work at Miro(55:55) The product stack at Miro(1:01:20) Big bets vs. maintenance and bug fixes at Miro(1:03:44) The “three horizons” framework(1:04:30) The importance of accountability(1:10:46) How Miro got their first 1,000 users(1:12:33) Other growth levers at Miro(1:15:53) Adding a sales motion(1:18:08) Miro AI, and new updates and enhancements coming soon(1:20:12) Lightning round—Referenced:• Miro: https://miro.com/• Miro Talktrack: https://help.miro.com/hc/en-us/articles/7825622973330-Miro-Talktrack-board-recordings-BETA-• The design sprint: https://www.thesprintbook.com/the-design-sprint• Jake Knapp on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jake-knapp/• Miroverse: https://miro.com/miroverse/• Amp It Up: Leading for Hypergrowth by Raising Expectations, Increasing Urgency, and Elevating Intensity: https://www.amazon.com/Amp-Unlocking-Hypergrowth-Expectations-Intensity/dp/1119836115• Reinforcement learning: https://towardsdatascience.com/reinforcement-learning-101-e24b50e1d292• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira• Confluence: https://www.atlassian.com/software/confluence• Coda: https://coda.io/• Looker: https://www.looker.com/google-cloud/• Productboard: https://www.productboard.com/• Three horizons framework: https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/strategy-and-corporate-finance/our-insights/enduring-ideas-the-three-horizons-of-growth• Capterra: https://www.capterra.com/• Elena Verna on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/elena-verna-on-how-b2b-growth-is-changing-product-led-growth-product-led-sales-why-you-should-go-freemium-not-trial-what-features-to-make-free-and-much-more/• Barbra Gago on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/category-creation-and-brand-building-barbra-gago-pando-miro-greenhouse-culture-amp/• FIFA World Cup template: https://miro.com/miroverse/fifa-world-cup-2022-editable-bracket-diagrams/• When Breath Becomes Air: https://www.amazon.com/When-Breath-Becomes-Paul-Kalanithi/dp/081298840X/• Hit Refresh: The Quest to Rediscover Microsoft’s Soul and Imagine a Better Future for Everyone: https://www.amazon.com/Hit-Refresh-Rediscover-Microsofts-Everyone/dp/0062652508/• Ted Lasso on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/ted-lasso/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected]. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Sprig—Product insights that drive product success.—Ada Chen Rekhi is an executive coach and co-founder of Notejoy. She helps founders scale themselves alongside their teams. She has over a decade of experience leading teams through periods of rapid transition, from the chaos of founding early-stage startups to leadership roles in growing SurveyMonkey and LinkedIn. In today’s podcast, we discuss:• How utilizing a “curiosity loop” can aid you in decision-making• A values exercise that can help determine if your life choices align with your personal values• Ada’s “explore and exploit” framework for making the most of your job opportunities• The advantages of seeking an executive coach and useful tips on finding one• Tips for women navigating working in Silicon Valley• Why it’s so important to provide constructive feedback—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-make-better-decisions-and—Where to find Ada Chen Rekhi:• Website: https://www.adachen.com/• Twitter: https://twitter.com/adachen• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adachen/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Ada’s background(03:17) What a curiosity loop is and when to use one(11:39) Using curiosity loops in your personal life(14:13) How curiosity loops are like customer advisory councils(16:30) A values exercise(25:30) Ada’s “explore and exploit” framework(31:28) When it’s time to leave your job(35:37) Logo collecting and why you should optimize for your values instead(39:30) What triggered Ada to reevaluate her career path(42:10) Why most people don’t actually need a coach(44:59) When coaching is valuable(47:20) How to find the right coach(51:38) Advice for women in Silicon Valley(1:00:08) Eating your vegetables—why you need to power through things you find challenging(1:05:07) Why you should write to crystallize knowledge, rather than for likes(1:06:54) How to successfully build a company with your spouse(1:11:07) Lightning round—Referenced:• SurveyMonkey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/• Values exercise: https://www.adachen.com/build-your-inner-scorecard-a-10-minute-exercise-for-better-decisions/• Clay: https://www.clay.com/• The Dip: A Little Book That Teaches You When to Quit (and When to Stick): https://www.amazon.com/Dip-Little-Book-Teaches-Stick/dp/1591841666/• Research on the coaching industry: https://www.adachen.com/an-in-depth-guide-to-executive-coaching-everything-you-need-to-know-part-1/• The inner scorecard: https://fs.blog/the-inner-scorecard/• How to find a coach: https://www.adachen.com/a-practical-guide-how-to-find-an-executive-coach-part-3/• Radical Candor: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Candor-Revised-Kim-Scott/dp/1250258405/• Kim Malone Scott: https://kimmalonescott.com/• Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion: https://a.co/d/6JycbJo• Designing Your Life: https://a.co/d/cS2IqG0• Ted Lasso on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/ted-lasso/• Star Trek: Strange New Worlds on Paramount+: https://www.paramountplus.com/shows/star-trek-strange-new-worlds/• Notejoy: https://notejoy.com/• Captio: https://captio.co/• Note to Self: https://notetoselfapp.com/• Arc: https://arc.net/• Make Time: How to Focus on What Matters Every Day: https://www.amazon.com/Make-Time-Focus-Matters-Every/dp/0525572422—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected]. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security | LMNT—Zero-sugar hydration | AssemblyAI—Production-ready AI models to transcribe and understand speech—Laura Modi is the CEO and co-founder of Bobbie, the first woman-owned, organic infant formula in the U.S. Previously, Laura spent over five years at Airbnb, where she served as Director of Hospitality. Before that, she spent over four years at Google in finance and operations. In today’s podcast, we discuss:• Biggest lessons from five years at Airbnb• Lessons about building great culture• The power of naivete• From growth to “slowth”: Why Bobbie prioritized existing customers over growth during the height of the formula shortage• The importance of momentum above all else• Finding work-life balance with the right infrastructure, support, and frameworks• The importance of brand, and how to build a brand• What it takes to win in DTC—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/from-growth-to-slowth-the-making—Where to find Laura Modi:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurahughes6/• Email: [email protected]—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—Note: Lenny is a small angel investor in Bobbie.—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Laura’s background(04:20) What Laura worked on at Airbnb(06:22) The director of hospitality role(07:08) How supporting hosts led to growth at Airbnb(08:28) Lessons from Airbnb around culture and storytelling that impact how Laura runs Bobbie(09:44) How Laura builds a strong culture at Bobbie (11:45) The risk she took in starting her own company(13:41) Advice on taking risks(15:10) What is Bobbie(17:15) The scale of Bobbie(17:55) The infant formula shortage crisis (19:49) How the growth team pivoted to being the “slowth” team(23:23) Lessons from the crisis(25:16) Building a brand(31:12) Branding internally(33:58) The time the FDA shut Bobbie down over labeling(36:45) How Laura balances her busy mom life with being a founder(40:17) The power of naivete (44:03) Why Laura hires optimistic doers(45:56) Growing a DTC company(47:14) How Bobbie leverages content, community, and commerce(49:42) Bobbie’s pie chart of growth(50:43) Emily Oster’s influence (52:40) The importance of momentum and how to create it(54:15) Lightning round—Referenced:• Bobbie: https://www.hibobbie.com/• Davos: https://www.weforum.org/events/world-economic-forum-annual-meeting-2023• MrBeast’s YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCX6OQ3DkcsbYNE6H8uQQuVA• Josh Miller on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/competing-with-giants-an-inside-look-at-how-the-browser-company-builds-product-josh-miller-ceo/• Milk Drunk podcast: https://milk-drunk.com/• Emily Oster on Twitter: https://twitter.com/ProfEmilyOster• Cribsheet: https://www.amazon.com/Cribsheet/dp/1788164490• Great by Choice: https://www.amazon.com/Great-Choice-Uncertainty-Thrive-Despite/dp/1847940889• Metabolical: The Lure and the Lies of Processed Food, Nutrition, and Modern Medicine: https://www.amazon.com/Metabolical-Processed-Nutrition-Modern-Medicine/dp/0063027712/• Purple Cow: Transform Your Business by Being Remarkable: https://www.amazon.com/Purple-Cow-Transform-Business-Remarkable/dp/014101640X• Expecting Better: https://www.amazon.com/Expecting-Better-Conventional-Pregnancy-Wrong/dp/0143125702• Outlive: The Science and Art of Longevity: https://www.amazon.com/Outlive-Longevity-Peter-Attia-MD/dp/0593236599• Bad Sisters on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/bad-sisters• NoseFrida the Snotsucker: https://frida.com/products/nosefrida• Careers at Bobbie: https://www.hibobbie.com/pages/careers—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected]. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security | Public—Invest in stocks, treasuries, crypto, and more | LMNT—Zero-sugar hydration—Shweta Shrivastava is a Senior Product Leader at Waymo, an autonomous driving technology company backed by Alphabet. Prior to joining Waymo, she was the CPO of Nauto, where she also worked on AI-assisted driver tools. Shweta has worked in product for over 15 years in senior roles at several companies, including Amazon and Cisco. In today’s episode, we discuss:• How Waymo builds trust with riders• Product management at Waymo vs software-only products• The state of self-driving technology• The importance of being a disruptor and why large companies need to disrupt more• Underrated product management skills—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/product-lessons-from-waymo-shweta-shrivastava-waymo-amazon-cisco/#transcript—Where to find Shweta Shriva• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shshrivastava/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Shweta’s background(03:47) What Shweta and her team are responsible for at Waymo(05:30) About the autonomous driving vehicle hardware, software, and simulation tools (08:14) Differences in working at Waymo vs. a more traditional software company(11:02) How Waymo builds trust with riders and the difference between driver assist and fully autonomous(13:57) An example of how Waymo builds trust with riders(15:55) The commercial, operational, and system behavior metrics Waymo uses (20:38) What are L5 autonomous vehicles and why Shweta thinks L4 vehicles are good enough(22:53) How to keep investors enthusiastic when it’s a long-term investment(25:24) Building successful teams and successful products(26:39) Determining what you’re not building, especially before product-market-fit(27:49) Why large companies need to disrupt their own models (29:33) The most underrated product management skills(33:07) Tips for getting promoted(35:19) Where is Waymo and how to try it out(36:46) Lightning round—Referenced:• Waymo: https://waymo.com/• Nauto: https://www.nauto.com/• Working Backwards: Insights, Stories, and Secrets from Inside Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Working-Backwards-Insights-Stories-Secrets/dp/1250267595• Crossing the Chasm: Marketing and Selling Disruptive Products to Mainstream Customers: https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Chasm-3rd-Disruptive-Mainstream/dp/0062292986• The Innovator's Dilemma: When New Technologies Cause Great Firms to Fail: https://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Technologies-Management-Innovation/dp/1633691780• Top Gun: Maverick on Amazon Prime: https://www.amazon.com/Top-Gun-Maverick-Tom-Cruise/dp/B0B18G8R9B—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected]. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Wealthfront—Make smarter stock investments | Lenny’s Job Board—Hire the best product people. Find the best product gigs | Ahrefs—Improve your website’s SEO for free—Nikita Miller is a product leader, angel investor, and advisor. She has built and led product teams at companies ranging from early-stage startups to multinationals, and she is currently SVP of Product Management at The Knot Worldwide. Nikita is passionate about scaling product teams to support high-growth businesses and was a product leader at Trello and Atlassian for five years. In today’s podcast, we cover:• Lessons from building and growing Trello• Nikita’s roles and responsibilities framework• How the PM landscape is changing• Lessons about managing remote teams• Tactics for driving urgency within teams• Why working cross-culturally was such a formative experience—Find the transcript and references at: ⁠https://www.lennyspodcast.com/driving-alignment-and-urgency-within-teams-work-life-balance-and-the-changing-pm-landscape-nikita-miller-the-knot-trello/#transcript—Where to find Nikita Miller:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/nikitadyer• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nikitadyer/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Nikita’s background(03:56) How Nikita helped Trello develop enterprise features (09:41) Trello vs. Jira(10:28) Similarities and differences between building for users at The Knot vs. Trello(15:02) Pro tips for Trello users(15:41) Nikita’s roles and responsibilities framework(21:10) Why scrum masters are disappearing and what shifts are happening on teams(21:56) Why every team should have a data scientist embedded in it(23:27) The proper cadence for the rules and responsibilities framework, and problems around execution(25:27) Outcomes and output(28:34) The importance of urgency, and how to cultivate a sense of urgency(29:52) How to determine if your team is moving quickly enough(31:03) Prioritization between big bets and optimizations(31:29) Questions Nikita asks to understand her team’s speed (33:30) Changes in the field of product management(36:42) Advice for people who want to get into product(38:40) Why being a PM is hard, and thoughts on work-life balance(43:03) How to manage remote teams and how to do successful, short, in-person meetups(47:59) The importance of having overlapping work hours and onboarding in person(49:09) The advantages of working in different cultures (52:58) The question Nikita finds most useful(55:07) Lightning round—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Disclosure: I am a Wealthfront client and I have received non-cash compensation for the testimonial in this episode. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Amplitude—Build better products | Miro—A collaborative visual platform where your best work comes to life | Ahrefs—Improve your website’s SEO for free—Hila Qu is an Executive in Residence at Reforge as well as a renowned growth advisor, angel investor, and published author (her book about growth was named one of the top 10 business books of 2018 in China). Previously, she served as the Director of Growth at GitLab, where she implemented and scaled their PLG motion, and VP of Growth at Acorns, scaling them from 1 million to 5 million users. In today’s episode, we discuss:• The importance of having both a product-led and a sales-led motion for companies of all sizes• A step-by-step process for implementing PLG• Common pitfalls of layering on PLG• How to audit your existing funnel• Conversion, activation, and retention tactics• Structuring your growth organization from day one, and as it scales—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-adding-a-plg—Where to find Hila Qu:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/HilaQu• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hilaqu/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Hila’s background(03:26) The outcome of writing guest posts for Lenny’s Newsletter(05:12) Why companies should have PLG and sales(07:58) What PLG is and why it’s so popular(09:41) Zoom, an example of a PLG company(11:24) Common pitfalls in adding a PLG motion(16:06) The spectrum of when PLG makes sense(20:04) What you need to be successful in a product-led growth strategy(24:52) The first step to adding a PLG motion(30:11) What GitLab does and how the sales funnel and PLG funnel work there(34:07) Mapping out the funnel(35:29) Finding leverage and other next steps(38:24) What an aha moment is and conducting an audit(47:30) Activation and conversion (52:17) Why you should start with activation, and who is doing it well(55:24) Retention, the messy part of the funnel(1:00:34) How Hila made an impact on retention at Acorns(1:03:03) The two buckets of data (1:04:56) Tools for implementing a PLG motion(1:08:47) The importance of data (1:10:20) Tips to get started, and why you need to have good data first(1:12:10) How to do a data audit(1:15:04) Building a PLG team(1:22:40) The core growth squad(1:27:51) Lightning round—Referenced:• Hila’s guest post on Lenny’s Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/five-steps-to-starting-your-plg-motion• Ravi Mehta on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/building-your-product-strategy-stack-ravi-mehta-tinder-facebook-tripadvisor-outpace/• Amplitude: https://amplitude.com/• GitLab: https://about.gitlab.com/• Lauryn Isford on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/mastering-onboarding-lauryn-isford-head-of-growth-at-airtable/• Acorns: https://signup.acorns.com/• PostHog: https://posthog.com/• Mixpanel: https://mixpanel.com/• Pendo: https://go.pendo.io/• Optimizely: https://www.optimizely.com/• Eppo: https://www.geteppo.com/• HubSpot: https://www.hubspot.com/• Clearbit: https://clearbit.com/• ZoomInfo: https://www.zoominfo.com/• Endgame: https://www.endgame.io/• Pocus: https://www.pocus.com/• Pace: https://www.paceapp.com/• Toplyne: https://www.toplyne.io/• Crystal Widjaja on Lenny’s Podcast: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-scrappily-hire-for-measure-and-unlock-growth-crystal-widjaja-gojek-and-kumu/• Redshift: https://aws.amazon.com/redshift/• The Almanack of Naval Ravikant: A Guide to Wealth and Happiness: https://www.amazon.com/Almanack-Naval-Ravikant-Wealth-Happiness-ebook/dp/B08FF8MTM6• How Women Rise: https://www.amazon.com/How-Women-Rise-Habits-Holding/dp/1847942253/• 硅谷增长黑客实战笔记 (Hila’s best-selling book on growth): https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BZC8L78?ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_ND87BRFMB0CMWBEVB747• The Wandering Earth II: https://wellgousa.com/films/wandering-earth-ii• The Three-Body Problem: https://www.amazon.com/Three-Body-Problem-Cixin-Liu/dp/0765382032• Lululemon yoga pants: https://shop.lululemon.com/c/women-pants/yoga/• ChatGPT: https://chat.openai.com/chat• Someday: https://www.amazon.com/Someday-Alison-McGhee/dp/1416928111—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected]. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Amplitude—Build better products | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments | Ahrefs—Improve your website's SEO for free—Casey Winters is a longtime and legendary advisor and operator. He’s worked with companies like Airbnb, Faire, Canva, Whatnot, Thumbtack, Tinder, and Reddit and until recently was the Chief Product Officer at Eventbrite, where he managed the PM, design, research, and growth marketing teams. Before Eventbrite, he led growth and product teams at Pinterest and Grubhub. In today’s episode, we discuss what Casey calls the “zero interest rate phenomenon” product manager and how to avoid becoming one. He provides valuable insights on thinking outside popular frameworks, shipping products efficiently, and avoiding overreliance on user research. We explore the three types of network effects, how to leverage them, and how to break someone else’s network effect. Finally, Casey shares his contrarian approach to interviewing product managers and his thoughts on the future of PM roles with AI.—Find the full transcript at: Zhttps://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/thinking-beyond-frameworks-casey—Where to find Casey Winters:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/onecaseman• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caseywinters/• Blog: https://caseyaccidental.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Casey’s background(03:36) What Casey is up to(05:24) Why the CPO position is frequently short-lived(07:26) What Casey learned in his role as CPO of Eventbrite(10:15) The “zero interest rate phenomenon” product manager(12:17) Advice for thinking outside common frameworks(18:35) When to bring in research(21:16) What Whatnot does(21:59) Casey’s approach to interviewing PMs (23:29) Red flags in interview responses(24:27) The future of product management with AI(27:47) Founder intuition vs. team expertise(33:33) How to influence founders(37:17) Adding the delivery driver app at Grubhub(40:00) Network effects(43:10) Why Zillow is a sticky product(44:05) How Grubhub’s network effect got taken over by DoorDash and Uber Eats(51:47) Don’t underestimate the competition(54:43) SaaS adding marketplace and vice versa(01:02:30) Defining marketplaces(1:03:34) What Substack is nailing(1:05:43) Tips for B2C subscription startups(1:13:15) Lightning round—Referenced:• Casey Winters on Lenny’s Podcast previously: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-sell-your-ideas-and-rise-within-your-company-casey-winters-eventbrite/• Whatnot: https://www.whatnot.com/• The 700-calorie breakfast you should eat if you want to live forever, according to futurist Ray Kurzweil: https://www.businessinsider.com/what-ray-kurzweil-eats-to-live-forever-2016-4• The Way of the Gun on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/movie/the-way-of-the-gun-0fc9590c-3f85-48ab-96e9-1da1b9695065• Notion AI: https://www.notion.so/product/ai• Zapier: https://zapier.com/• Founder intuition vs. team expertise vs. customer expertise: https://caseyaccidental.com/founder-intuition-team-expertise/• Erika Warren on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erika-warren/• Alyssa Ravasio (Hipcamp) on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alyssa-ravasio-23114717/• Marketplace supply strategy: comprehensive, exclusive, or curated: https://a16z.com/2021/03/31/marketplace-supply-strategy/• Nassim Taleb on Twitter: https://twitter.com/nntaleb• The Innovator’s Dilemma: The Revolutionary Book That Will Change the Way You Do Business: https://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Revolutionary-Change-Business/dp/0062060244• OpenTable: https://www.opentable.com/• Booking.com: https://www.booking.com/• Faire: https://www.faire.com/• How to increase your retention: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-increase-your-retention-issue• The Goal: A Process of Ongoing Improvement: https://www.amazon.com/Goal-Process-Ongoing-Improvement/dp/0884271951• Thinking, Fast and Slow: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0374533555/r• Profit from the Core: A Return to Growth in Turbulent Times: https://www.amazon.com/Profit-Core-Return-Growth-Turbulent/dp/1422131114/• Party Down on Starz: https://www.starz.com/us/en/series/party-down/2011• The Last of Us on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/the-last-of-us• Station Eleven on HBO Max: https://www.hbomax.com/series/urn:hbo:series:GYZWoOQ6F9cLDCAEAAABP• Kicking and Screaming on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/70052286• Raven by Kelela on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/06uhdSmIYrWRkdnAPjcRcT• Optical Delusion by Orbital on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/2jQbFspnSh7erex6RDKQGJ• Stakes Is High by De La Soul on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/3jlC2uhYNrhikZXLviEnpu—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected]. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Brought to you by Coda—Meet the evolution of docs | Rows—The spreadsheet where data comes to life | Lenny’s Job Board—Hire the best product people. Find the best product gigs.—Kevin Aluwi is the co-founder and former CEO of Gojek. With over 2.7 million drivers and over 3 billion orders completed, Gojek is the biggest startup in Indonesia and all of Southeast Asia. In today’s podcast, Kevin shares the story of how Gojek overcame endless obstacles—including being underfunded, being unable to send drivers payment, and the local motorcycle mafia coming after their drivers. We cover the importance of brand, the value of doing the hard things, how to be super-scrappy, and helpful tips on building a tech company outside of Silicon Valley.Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/taxi-mafias-cash-vaults-and-100-momWhere to find Kevin Aluwi:• Twitter: https://twitter.com/kaluwi• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kaluwi/Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/Referenced:• Gojek: https://www.gojek.com/en-id/• WeChat: https://www.wechat.com/• Sequoia: https://www.sequoiacap.com/• eFishery: https://efishery.com/en/• What You Do Is Who You Are: How to Create Your Business Culture: https://www.amazon.com/What-You-Do-Who-Are/dp/0062871331• How Brands Grow: What Marketers Don’t Know: https://www.amazon.com/How-Brands-Grow-What-Marketers/dp/0195573560/• The Menu on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/movies/the-menu• Cyberpunk Edgerunners on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81054853• Arc: https://arc.net/• Steam Deck: https://store.steampowered.com/steamdeckIn this episode, we cover:(00:00) Kevin’s background(05:00) How Gojek got started and the current scale(08:35) Some of the services that Gojek currently offers or has offered(09:37) Kevin’s thoughts on super-apps(15:36) The importance of brand(23:08) How to create branding with consistency across copy and design(26:53) Challenges Gojek had in the early days that required scrappiness(33:03) Why Kevin doesn’t believe in moats as a durable solution, and the value of doing hard things(37:30) How Gojek hired private security to keep their drivers safe(39:38) The value of founders doing and understanding multiple roles within the company(44:12) How Kevin’s failed finance career led him to take a bet on building tech in Indonesia(47:30) Tips on building a tech company outside of Silicon Valley (52:09) What the market is like in Indonesia (55:42) What’s next for Kevin(57:41) Lightning roundProduction and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected]. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe