Code Switch
Society & Culture
NPR
What's CODE SWITCH? It's the fearless conversations about race that you've been waiting for. Hosted by journalists of color, our podcast tackles the subject of race with empathy and humor. We explore how race affects every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, food and everything in between. This podcast makes all of us part of the conversation — because we're all part of the story. Code Switch was named Apple Podcasts' first-ever Show of the Year in 2020.Want to level up your Code Switch game? Try Code Switch Plus. Your subscription supports the show and unlocks a sponsor-free feed. Learn more at plus.npr.org/codeswitch
Total 488 episodes
1
2
3
...
910
Go to
Taylor Swift and the unbearable whiteness of girlhood
Taylor Swift and the unbearable whiteness of girlhood
Taylor Swift has become an American icon, (and she's got the awards, sales, and accolades to prove it.) With that status, she's often been celebrated as someone whose music is authentically representing the interior lives of young women and adolescent girls. On this episode, we're asking: Why? What is it about Swift's persona — and her fandom — that feels so deeply connected to girlhood? And, because this is Code Switch, what does all of that have to do with race?Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
35:2231/01/2024
A former church girl's search for a new spiritual home
A former church girl's search for a new spiritual home
After leaving the Pentecostal Church, reporter Jess Alvarenga has been searching for a new spiritual home. They take us on their journey to find spirituality that includes the dining room dungeon of a dominatrix, Buddhist monks taking magic mushrooms and the pulpit of a Pentecostal church. This episode is a collaboration with our friends at LAist Studios. Special thanks to the Ferriss, UC Berkeley's Psychedelic Journalism program for their support.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
49:0129/01/2024
What happens when public housing goes private?
What happens when public housing goes private?
The New York City Housing Authority is the biggest public housing program in the country. But with limited funding to address billions of dollars of outstanding repairs, NYCHA is turning to a controversial plan to change how public housing operates. Fanta Kaba of WNYC's Radio Rookies brings the story of how this will affect residents and the future of housing, as a resident of a NYCHA complex in the Bronx herself.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
40:2124/01/2024
The women who masterminded the Montgomery Bus Boycott
The women who masterminded the Montgomery Bus Boycott
When people think back to the Montgomery Bus Boycott, they often remember just the bullet points: Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King, and voila. But on this episode, we're hearing directly from the many women who organized for months about what exactly it took to make the boycott happen.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
36:5017/01/2024
Everyone wants a piece of Martin Luther King Jr.'s legacy
Everyone wants a piece of Martin Luther King Jr.'s legacy
Martin Luther King Jr. was relatively unpopular when he was assassinated. But the way Americans of all political stripes invoke his memory today, you'd think he was held up as a hero. In this episode, we talk about the cooptation of King's legacy with Hajar Yazdiha, author of The Struggle for the People's King: How Politics Transforms the Memory of the Civil Rights Movement.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
30:4510/01/2024
67 years after desegregation, Arkansas schools are in the spotlight again
67 years after desegregation, Arkansas schools are in the spotlight again
Classrooms in Arkansas were at the center of school desegregation in the 1950s. Now, with the LEARNS Act, they're in the spotlight again. Code Switch comes to you live from Little Rock, Arkansas this week to unpack the latest education bill and how it echoes themes from decades past.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
35:4103/01/2024
Women of color have always shaped the way Americans eat
Women of color have always shaped the way Americans eat
For decades, the ingredients, dishes and chefs that are popularized have been filtered through the narrow lens of a food and publishing world dominated by mostly white, mostly male decision-makers. But with more food authors of color taking center stage, is that changing? In this episode, we dive deep into food publishing, past and present.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
33:4827/12/2023
Here are our favorite Code Switch episodes from 2023
Here are our favorite Code Switch episodes from 2023
It's that time of year again, fam, when we look back at the past 12 months and think, "WHOA, HOW'D THAT GO BY SO FAST?" So we're taking a beat: for this week's episode, each one of us who makes Code Switch is getting on the mic to reflect on — and recommend — an episode we loved from 2023.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
30:4720/12/2023
Revisiting 'The Color Purple' wars
Revisiting 'The Color Purple' wars
The Color Purple remake drops this week and to celebrate, we're bringing you this special episode from our play cousins over at Pop Culture Happy Hour. Alice Walker's novel The Color Purple has been adapted a few times. Next week, the new movie The Color Purple hits theaters – it's based on the Tony-winning musical. The 1985 film is remembered as a fan-favorite centering Black women's lives, but this acclaimed adaptation was received quite differently among female viewers and male viewers. Today, we revisit our episode about the original film from our three-part documentary series Screening Ourselves, which explored films through the lens of representation – and misrepresentation – on screen.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
47:1818/12/2023
This is what "real self-care" looks like
This is what "real self-care" looks like
"You can't meditate yourself out of a 40-hour work week with no childcare and no paid sick days," says Dr. Pooja Lakshmin. But when you're overworked and overwhelmed, what can you do? On this episode, host B.A. Parker asks: What are your options when a bubble bath won't cut it?Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
36:4113/12/2023
Watching 'Renaissance' and what we hear in Beyoncé's silence
Watching 'Renaissance' and what we hear in Beyoncé's silence
We're bringing you an extra treat this week from our play cousins over at It's Been A Minute: In the credits for 'Renaissance: A Film By Beyoncé' the Queen Bee makes it clear who is in charge. Written by? Beyoncé. Directed by? Beyoncé. Produced by? Beyoncé. And of course, starring...Beyoncé. For someone who is so in control of their own image, what is spoken and what is unspoken are equally loud.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
18:4511/12/2023
The world can be painful. But love is possible, too
The world can be painful. But love is possible, too
Kai Cheng Thom is no stranger to misanthropy. There have been stretches of her life where she's felt burdened by anger, isolation, and resentment toward other people. And not without reason. Her identities, especially as a trans woman and a former sex worker, have frequently made her a locus for other people's fear and hatred. But at a certain point, Kai decided to embark on a radical experiment: to see if she could "fall back in love with being human." The result was a series of letters, poems, exercises and prayers that let Kai confront some of the most painful moments of her life, and then try to move past them.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
34:5306/12/2023
Can you travel the world — ethically?
Can you travel the world — ethically?
Traveling is supposed to open your mind and expand your horizons — but what if it doesn't? In her new book Airplane Mode, author Shahnaz Habib suggests that sometimes, traveling does more to enforce our ideas about the world than to upend them. Which means that people with "passport privilege" — AKA, the ability to travel freely from country to country — may end up feeling like the stars of some massive international adventure, while people whose travel is more restricted feel like perpetual interlopers.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
31:4629/11/2023
A Tale of Two Tribal Nations
A Tale of Two Tribal Nations
The word "reservation" implies "reserved" – as in, this land is reserved for Native Americans. But most reservation land actually isn't owned by tribes. That's true for the Leech Lake Band of Ojibwe in northern Minnesota, where the tribe owns just a tiny fraction of its reservation land. But just northwest of Leech Lake is Red Lake: one of the only reservations in the country where the tribe owns all of its land.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
51:1322/11/2023
Who Has The "Right To A Story?"
Who Has The "Right To A Story?"
On this week's Code Switch, we hear from two Palestinian American poets who talk about what it's like to be Palestinian American in the U.S. Fady Joudah and Tariq Luthun say the way their stories are told — or aren't told — has contributed to what they see as an erasure of their identities, and often of their humanity.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
35:5415/11/2023
How does a computer discriminate?
How does a computer discriminate?
OK, not exactly a computer — more like, the wild array of technologies that inform what we consume on our computers and phones. Because on this episode, we're looking at how AI and race bias intersect. Safiya Noble, a professor at UCLA and the author of the book Algorithms of Oppression talks us through some of the messy issues that arise when algorithms and tech are used as substitutes for good old-fashioned human brains.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
33:5308/11/2023
All The Only Ones: The Missing Piece Of The Puzzle
All The Only Ones: The Missing Piece Of The Puzzle
We're bringing you something special from our play cousins over at Embedded: the first episode of a three part series about the often neglected history of trans youth in America. We meet Zen, a Mexican-American, New Orleans native, who is coming into their transness, as we learn about an historic trans person, Bernard, from Alabama in the early 1900s, fighting to be seen.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
43:5703/11/2023
Looking For My People In The Black Punk Scene
Looking For My People In The Black Punk Scene
More than a decade since B.A. Parker last dabbled in the Black punk scene, she heads to a punk a show, and remembers a question from James Spooner: "What is more liberating than a mosh pit full of smiling Black faces?" Parker talks to James about what it means to be a Black punk, creating the Afropunk Festival and its evolution, and a new anthology he co-edited called Black Punk Now.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
31:4501/11/2023
Giving up on identity with Ada Limón
Giving up on identity with Ada Limón
Ada Limón is many things: the U.S. Poet Laureate, a recently named MacArthur "Genius," a Latina, a summer person becoming a fall person. But underneath all those outer identities, she's still in search for the "original animal at [her] core."Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
35:1925/10/2023
The agony and ecstasy of parenting with Hari Kondabolu
The agony and ecstasy of parenting with Hari Kondabolu
Being a new parent is exhausting at the best of times. There are diapers to change, bottles to fill, screaming sobs to quiet down. But beyond all the routine chores that come with parenting, there are the larger social questions of how to raise a kid in a complex, unjust, and ever-changing world.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
27:4318/10/2023
What does it mean to be good?
What does it mean to be good?
In her memoir Rivermouth, author Alejandra Oliva recounts her experiences working as a translator and interpreter for people seeking asylum in the U.S. But as she navigates the world of immigration advocacy, she starts to grapple with the question of what it means to help, and what it means to "want to star in the helping."Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
32:0711/10/2023
Student activists are fighting big coal, and winning
Student activists are fighting big coal, and winning
South Baltimore has some of the most polluted air in the country. Local teenagers are fighting polluters back, and slowly building toward climate justice.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
38:3704/10/2023
Probation and parole — the under-researched arms of mass incarceration
Probation and parole — the under-researched arms of mass incarceration
In the past decade, the problem of mass incarceration has gotten increased attention and thought. But in his new book, Mass Supervision, Vincent Schiraldi argues that in those conversations, people often neglect to think about probation and parole — two of the biggest feeders to the U.S.'s prison population. These systems surveil close to four million Americans, which Schiraldi says is both a huge waste of resources and a massive human rights violation. On this episode, we're talking to Schiraldi about how probation and parole came to be, why they're no longer working as they were once supposed to, and why he thinks they might need to be done away with entirely.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
36:0127/09/2023
'I Can Die For This Country, But I Can't Learn'
'I Can Die For This Country, But I Can't Learn'
In June, the Supreme Court banned affirmative action at colleges and universities across the country, with one glaring exception: military academies. On this episode, we're asking — why?Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
37:1920/09/2023
Remembering and unremembering, from Kigali to Nashville
Remembering and unremembering, from Kigali to Nashville
For centuries, the idea of the "American Dream" has been a powerful narrative for many immigrant communities. But for just as long, many African Americans have known that the American Dream was never meant to include them. So what happens when those beliefs collide? Today ten percent of the Black population in the U.S. are immigrants, and many grapple with this question. In this episode, we'll hear from Claude Gatebuke, who moved from Kigali to Nashville as a teenager in the wake of the Rwandan genocide. He talks about how the move to the U.S. likely saved his life, while simultaneously challenging his belief that he could have a full, meaningful future as a Black man.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
38:5113/09/2023
Fall football — or the fall of football?
Fall football — or the fall of football?
This week, the NFL is gearing up for the start of its 104th season. But as this new chapter begins, we're looking at some of the league's old problems with race and diversity — ones that have implications for the coaches, the players, and the fans.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
34:1306/09/2023
Bad Bunny, Reggaeton, and Resistance
Bad Bunny, Reggaeton, and Resistance
Bad Bunny, the genre- and gender norm-defying Puerto Rican rapper, is one of the biggest music stars on the planet. He has also provided a global megaphone for Puerto Rican discontent. In this episode, we take a look at how Bad Bunny became the unlikely voice of resistance in Puerto Rico. This episode originally aired in January 2023.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
38:2930/08/2023
What Makes A Good Race Joke?
What Makes A Good Race Joke?
When a comedian of color makes a joke, is it always about race, even if it's not about race? Code Switch talks to comedians Aparna Nancherla, Brian Bahe and Maz Jobrani about how and why race makes an appearance in their jokes. Plus, one of our own reveals her early-career dabbling in comedy.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
27:0923/08/2023
Family, fortune, and the fight for Osage headrights
Family, fortune, and the fight for Osage headrights
When Richard J. Lonsinger's birth mother passed away in 2010, he wasn't included in the distribution of her estate. Feeling hurt and excluded, he asked a judge to re-open her estate, to give him a part of one particular asset: an Osage headright. But the more Lonsinger learned about the history of the headrights, the more he began to wonder who was really entitled to them, and where he fit in.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
23:5716/08/2023
How Hip-Hop Fights The Power — And Also Serves It
How Hip-Hop Fights The Power — And Also Serves It
For hip-hop's not-official-but-kind-of-official 50th birthday, we dig into its many contradictions. From the legend of the South Bronx block party where hip-hop was born to the multi-billion-dollar global industry and tool for U.S. diplomacy it has become, America's relationship with hip-hop — and the people who make it — is complicated.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
34:2309/08/2023
Rolling the dice on race in Dungeons & Dragons
Rolling the dice on race in Dungeons & Dragons
Dungeons & Dragons is one of the most popular tabletop role-playing games of all time. But it has also helped cement some ideas about how we create and define race in fantasy — and in the tangible world. This week we revisit a deep dive into that game. What we find about racial stereotypes and colonialist supremacy is illuminating.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
33:2802/08/2023
Code Switch's beach reads — no beach required
Code Switch's beach reads — no beach required
There are race books, and there are beach reads, and never the twain shall meet. You know that old truism, right? Well, this is Code Switch (the show about race and identity and romance and drama from NPR), and we weren't willing to accept that dichotomy. So on this episode, we're bringing you a bouquet of our favorite summer thrillers, love stories, memoirs and more — all of which have something to say about race.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
34:1926/07/2023
This Conspiracy Soup Contains Bugs — And Racism
This Conspiracy Soup Contains Bugs — And Racism
Gene Demby and NPR's Huo Jingnan dive into a conspiracy theory about how "global elites" are forcing people to eat bugs. And no huge surprise — the theory's popularity is largely about its loudest proponents' racist fear-mongering.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
33:0919/07/2023
Is "home" still home after 30 years away?
Is "home" still home after 30 years away?
Brian de los Santos always thought of Mexico as his "home" — despite not having been able to return to his country of birth for three decades. But when he finally got a chance to visit, his conception of what home was and where he belonged totally shifted.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
36:4412/07/2023
What Happens After A Racist Massacre In Your Neighborhood?
What Happens After A Racist Massacre In Your Neighborhood?
This week, we're sharing the first episode of "Buffalo Extreme," a three-part series from our play cousins at NPR's Embedded. The series follows a Black cheer squad, their moms and their coaches in the year after the racist massacre at the Jefferson Street Tops in Buffalo, New York, just blocks from their gym. NPR hands the mic to the girls and women in that community as they navigate the complicated path to recovery in the year after.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
32:4705/07/2023
Honoring My Enslaved Ancestors, Part Two
Honoring My Enslaved Ancestors, Part Two
In the second of two episodes, Code Switch co-host B.A. Parker is figuring out what kind of descendant she wants to be. Parker and her mom decide to go back to the plantation where their ancestors were enslaved, because despite the circumstances of slavery, this is where their family began.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
33:4428/06/2023
Honoring My Enslaved Ancestors, Part One
Honoring My Enslaved Ancestors, Part One
Code Switch co-host B.A. Parker digs into what it means to maintain the legacy of her ancestors. In part one of two episodes, Parker goes to a symposium for descendants of slavery and meets people who, like her, are caretakers of "culturally significant historical places."Note: A technical error with a previous version of this episode resulted in an audio mix that may have been difficult to listen to. Please check out the new mix!Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
33:4421/06/2023
Going to a white church in a Black body
Going to a white church in a Black body
How do you participate in a faith practice that has a rough track record with racism? That's what our play-cousin J.C. Howard gets into on this week's episode of Code Switch. He talks to us about Black Christians who, like him for a time, found their spiritual homes in white evangelical churches.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
38:1714/06/2023
Spilling the "T" with comedian D'Lo
Spilling the "T" with comedian D'Lo
On this week's Code Switch, producer Kumari Devarajan finds her demographic clone in actor and comedian D'Lo. Kumari found that when you share so much in common with a stranger who is putting their business on front street for the world to see, it can feel like they're sharing your secrets, too.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
30:1807/06/2023
Across the ocean: a Japanese American story of war and homecoming
Across the ocean: a Japanese American story of war and homecoming
One of the most pivotal moments in Japanese American history was when the U.S. government uprooted more than 100,000 people of Japanese ancestry and forced them into incarceration camps. But there is another, less-known story about the tens of thousands of Japanese Americans who were living in Japan during World War II — and whose lives uprooted in a very different way.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
34:3324/05/2023
The implications of the case against ICWA
The implications of the case against ICWA
The Supreme Court is about to decide on a case arguing that the Indian Child Welfare Act (ICWA) discriminates against white foster parents. Journalist Rebecca Nagle explains how this decision could reverse centuries of U.S. law protecting the rights of Indigenous nations. "Native kids have been the tip of the spear in attacks on tribal sovereignty for generations."Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
32:3317/05/2023
Naomi Jackson talks 'losing and finding my mind'
Naomi Jackson talks 'losing and finding my mind'
"Three springs ago, I lost the better part of my mind," Naomi Jackson wrote in an essay for Harper's Magazine. On this episode, Jackson reads from that essay about her experience with mental illness, including how she has had to decipher which of her fears stem from her illness and which are backed by the history of racism.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
30:0310/05/2023
K-Pop's Surprising B(l)ackstory
K-Pop's Surprising B(l)ackstory
K-pop disrupted pop culture in South Korea in the early 1990s, and later found fans around the world. Vivian Yoon was one of those fans, growing up thousands of miles away in Koreatown, Los Angeles. This week, we're sharing an episode of In K-Pop Dreaming, the second season of LAist's California Love podcast. In it, Yoon takes listeners on a journey to learn about the history behind the music that had defined her childhood.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
45:0603/05/2023
The Fallout of a Callout
The Fallout of a Callout
In 2017, comedian Hari Kondabolu called out Hollywood's portrayals of South Asians with his documentary The Problem With Apu. The film was also a criticism of comedian Hank Azaria, who is white, for voicing the Indian character on The Simpsons. On this episode, Hari and Hank sit down to talk publicly for the first time about that callout and everything that has gone down since.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
28:4226/04/2023
Self-Care Laid Bare
Self-Care Laid Bare
"You can't meditate yourself out of a 40-hour work week with no childcare and no paid sick days," says Dr. Pooja Lakshmin. But when you're overworked and overwhelmed, what actually can you do? On this episode, host B.A. Parker asks: What are your options when a bubble bath won't cut it?Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
35:2919/04/2023
W2s and WTFs
W2s and WTFs
You finally get through the confusing, stressful work of doing your taxes only to hear back from the IRS: you're being audited. And it turns out that your race plays a big role in whether you get that letter, how much you might owe the IRS, which tax breaks you can get, and even which benefits you can claim.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
30:0512/04/2023
Women in hip-hop push back against the male gaze
Women in hip-hop push back against the male gaze
The male gaze objectifies, consumes and shames people for not fitting into a mold. This week, we're looking at how that affects women in hip-hop. Our play cousins at Louder Than A Riot bring us the voices of artists who won't let the male gaze dominate their careers, stories and personal lives.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
34:0805/04/2023
The Tricky Obligations of Utang Na Loob
The Tricky Obligations of Utang Na Loob
Utang na loob is the Filipino concept of an eternal debt to others, be it family or friends, who do a favor for you. In this episode from 2022, we break down this "debt of the inner soul" — and discover a surprising side to this pre-colonial value.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
38:5529/03/2023
The Women Behind the Montgomery Bus Boycott
The Women Behind the Montgomery Bus Boycott
We've all heard about Rosa Parks and her crucial role in the Montgomery bus boycott. But Parks was just one of the many women who organized for years to make that boycott a reality. In this episode, the women behind the boycott tell their own story.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
35:0222/03/2023
Whose Nightmares Are We Telling? How Horror Has Evolved for People of Color
Whose Nightmares Are We Telling? How Horror Has Evolved for People of Color
Host B.A. Parker talks to Jasmin Savoy Brown, of the recently-released Scream 6, about playing a queer Black girl who lives. And film critics Richard Newby and Mallory Yu discuss how horror movies can actually help us empathize with each otherLearn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
33:5315/03/2023