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You know how sometimes we say things to ourselves like, oh my gosh, this part of me is so mad at that, and this part of me is so happy about that, or this part of me is so anxious about that.
Well, I have a fantastic guest joining me today, Dr. Richard Schwartz.And I just want to welcome all of you, including Dr. Schwartz, to my podcast, Cleaning Up the Mental Mess.I'm your host, Dr. Caroline Lee.
And we are going to have the most amazing discussion with an incredible man who has spent 40 years, as long as I have, in the field of researching the mind, the brain, and how to help people.Richard, I am so excited to have you join me today.
Thank you for your work, and thank you for agreeing to come on my show.
Well, thank you for having me, Caroline.And as I listen to some of your work, we have a lot in common, so I'm really excited to be with you as well.
Thank you.Well, I'm just going to boast a little bit about you.Richard Schwartz began his career as a systemic family therapist and an academic grounded in systems thinking.Dr. Schwartz developed internal family systems.
And this is what we're going to be talking about today.He has an amazing workbook that I have looked through.It's wonderful. in response to clients' descriptions of various parts within themselves, where I started this discussion.
He focused on relationships amongst these parts and noticed that there were systemic patterns to the way they were organized across clients.Absolutely fascinating.
He also found that when the client's parts felt safe and were allowed to relax, the clients would experience spontaneously the qualities of confidence, openness, and compassion that Dr. Schwartz came to call the self.
I love how you focus on the self.I really found that extremely important, something that I have spent so many years trying to work on as well.And just the way you explain it is amazing.So you are a featured guest.
I'm going to let people tell you a little bit about your background, where you currently work from.I know you're linked to Harvard.So welcome again.And let's start, as I said, with a little bit of your background.
Oh, for me to start talking about my background?
Yes, please, if you don't mind.
actually a PhD in family therapy, marital and family therapy.
And I was back in those early 80s, I was one of those obnoxious family therapists who thought we'd found the Holy Grail and you didn't need to muck around in the inner world because you could change all that by just reorganizing these external systems and tried to prove that by doing an outcome study in 1983 and found that it wasn't true.
that we could reorganize the family just right.And these was a bulimia study.So these kids would keep binging and purging.And so out of frustration, I started asking why and they, they basically taught this to me.
And they started talking about these different parts and what they were doing inside.So yeah, so I came to it with a couple advantages over what a lot of other people had, which is first, because I was
schooled in family therapy, I didn't study any of the traditional intrapsychic models.So I was forced to actually listen to what clients were saying.And second, I brought this systems perspective.
So I was not interested in just each, what they were calling part, but I was interested in how they all related to each other as a pattern.So my background, I think, really helped that way.
And this, an IFS that you developed over these 40 years, internal family systems, it's a transformative tool that really helps people, not only the therapist, not only in psychotherapy, but people can also learn to help themselves, which is why you bought this, the workbook, which I'd love to discuss.
as we move on in the discussion, but can you explain what internal family systems is, what you developed, how it works, what are the parts, how do you make a statement that's quite outside the box and I love it.
When I heard it I thought okay this is someone I'm going to interview because this is something that I agree with, but you said we all made of parts and that the diagnostic label of people having multiple personalities
is actually not really, you know, it can happen, but it's more the mind kind of being blown apart, which is something I totally agree with, but that we all have these parts and that if we can make space to connect and communicate between these parts and understand them to the recognition of the self that can't be touched, we can change.
You can see I've been listening to you and reading your stuff.So can you talk about this transformative, take as long as you need, explain it, you know, from bottoms up, how it works and help us to help ourselves.
Well, yeah, you gave me a great start there.So as I was saying, these clients started talking about these different parts.And with the Blima kids, they would talk about the binge part that would make them overeat.
And then this critic would come in afterwards.And then they would have this shame attack.They'd feel totally worthless, which made them binge more.So they were caught in a kind of vicious cycle that way.And at first I thought,
these were what most of psychotherapy thought the critic was some kind of internalized parental negative voice and the binge was out of control impulse.When you think about them that way, then you want to control them or you want to argue with them.
And so I did that for a while.And then I have one client who, in addition to all that was cutting herself and I couldn't stand that she was doing that.So I got into a big power struggle with that part.
And because even my clients were talking as if these parts weren't just little thought patterns, that they actually had full range personalities in there.
And as I got that at first, I got scared because maybe they're got multiple personality disorder.But then I listened inside myself and oh my God, I've got them too. and some of mine are as extreme as theirs.
And then I calmed down and just got more curious about it, but still was trying to get everybody to control these things.And with this cutting part, I badgered it for a couple hours until it finally said it wouldn't cut her that week.
And then of course the client comes in the next week and she's got a big gash down the side of her face.And I just collapsed emotionally at that point and spontaneously just said, I give up, I can't beat you at this.Why do you do this?
And the part proceeded to talk about how when she was young, it needed to do this to get her distracted from the abuse she was suffering.
And so that was the kind of turning point in the history of this work, because I shifted to now I'm just really curious, not only curious, but I have a kind of appreciation for the heroic role it played in her life.It literally saved her life.
And I could have her convey that to the part.The part broke into tears because every woman had vilified it and tried to get rid of it.
And I love how much of an advocate you are for taking away these pathological diagnoses from people and helping them understand it's really based in trauma and so on.
So that started me on that path of shifting away from trying to control to helping people get curious about these parts and actually just start listening to the critic and asking what it's afraid would happen if it didn't do this work.
And as I did that, you'd be amazed at how much you get an answer to that question and how much they're all trying to protect, even though some of the behaviors like the cutting part seems very crazy.But back in the day, it was really needed.
And, and the criticizing was needed and so on.And so with that, the long story short is I ultimately came to conclude that there are no bad parts, and that actually, they're all valuable.And it's the nature of the mind to have them.
It's not because of trauma. blows your mind into these shards of the broken vase.It's actually, we come into the world with them because one mind can't do everything we have to simultaneously.So it makes sense.
We would have a bunch of little helpers in there with different talents and resources for us.So that's the basic assumption that we're born multiple.It's a good thing that trauma
and attachment injuries, which are bad parenting, basically, and all the slings and arrows we suffer as we go through life, force them out of their naturally valuable states into roles that can be damaging.
But we're the best they could do back in the day.And these parts are frozen in time, such that, for example, if I had you ask, your critic, how old it thought you were, generally most people get a single digit answer.
They still think you're five years old and that you're living back in that time and that they need to protect you in the same way.
And also they get stuck with these extreme beliefs and emotions that came into you from the trauma that I came to call burdens.And those burdens, are not inherent to the part.
They're just they attach to the part and drive them like the virus, something like that.
So as I was getting that, I started thinking, well, maybe that's true for these bulimic kids, or maybe it's true for some of the acting out adolescents I was working with.But could it really be true for all parts?
What about parts that molested little kids, or what about parts that that made a person murder somebody.And so I actively went to those places.I consulted to a sex offender treatment center for two years.
And I would go into jails and interview people who committed murder.
And lo and behold, those parts, too, when you got curious about them instead of hating them, would show scenes from when they got their job, which were also abuse scenes, and that they
took in the energy of their abuser in order to protect their person from the abuser and then they get stuck with the desire to hurt vulnerability and so on.
So that was mind-blowing that there really are no bad parts and that... It's so freeing as well, you know, it really can free you up from so many other burdens.Absolutely.
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And again, being a systems thinker, I was trying to make a map of this territory as I went.
And the big distinction that leaped out immediately was between parts that before they were hurt, were these inner children that we love so much because they bring us creativity and joy and playfulness and liveliness and so on.
But once they do get hurt or terrified or ashamed,
Now we don't want to be around them anymore because they can make us feel the emotional pain that they're carrying out, the burden of that, or they can make us feel worthless, or they can make us feel terrified because they're still frozen in those times and they can pull us back into those scenes.
So we tend to almost naturally want to lock them away inside and not attend to them anymore. And just move on.And ours, as you know, is a just move on culture, where you get hurt, and you don't want to dwell on it.You just want to let it go.
Or suppress it in some way with something.
Yeah, exactly.And the problem with that approach is that it isn't just the memories you're leaving behind. or even just the emotions.It's these lively, childlike parts who, just by dint of getting hurt, now you abandon.
And they're still there, and they're still stuck in these scenes.And they're still dying for attention.They're still wanting you to get what happened to them.And they feel quite abandoned by you now.And so we call those the exiles.
And most of us have a bunch of exiles.And when you have a bunch of exiles, you feel more delicate, and the world's even more dangerous, because so many things could trigger them.And I've heard you talk about this, too.
And when they get triggered, it's like this big explosion of raw emotions, flames of emotions come bursting out and make it so you can't function and take you out if it's bad enough. So to deal with all that, we have protective parts.
These other parts are forced out of their naturally valuable states to become protectors.And some of them do that by managing the external world so that we don't get triggered again.
And they're very much into controlling people or the external world and keeping us in our heads, for example. Or they often become these critics because they're yelling at us to try and get us to look better or to behave perfectly.
So we just don't get hurt again.And so a bunch of us have a bunch of these manager parts.We usually call the ego or something like that.And they're just trying to do their best.They're like over-promoted little kids, generally.
They're too young to have all this responsibility. They feel like they've got to do it to keep us safe.And the world still triggers our exiles at times, or they just kind of burst out because they're tired of being locked away.
And when that happens, it feels like a big emergency because you don't want to feel any of that anymore.And some parts of you think you're going to die if you go back there.So there's another set of parts who
in contrast to these managers who are trying to keep everything under control and please everybody, take you out of control and often piss off everybody because they don't know what else to do but get you higher than the symptom, higher than the flames of emotion or douse them with some substance or distract you until they burn themselves out.
And so we call these protectors firefighters. So in contrast to the managers, they're impulsive, reactive.Damn the torpedoes.I don't care about the collateral damage to your body or to your relationships.
I've just got to get you away from those feelings.So that's the map.It's pretty simple, really.The exiles are very vulnerable and hurt but locked up.
And then the protectors, who generally fit into one of those two categories of manager or firefighter.
But the big, I guess, discovery, for lack of a better word, and I've heard you talk about a version of this, is that just beneath the surface of these parts I've been talking about, lies a kind of healing essence with all kinds of wonderful qualities that I call the self, with a capital S. And I just stumbled onto that discovery because as I'm trying to get these parts to, or get my clients to,
to listen to rather than fight with their parts.Once I got him to the fact that they deserve to be listened to, I was say, I'm working with you, with your critic.
And you're trying to get to know it and you get curious about it and it's relaxing more, but suddenly you're faced with it.
And it reminded me of family therapy sessions where I'm working with two polarized family members trying to get them to listen to each other.
And suddenly a third jumps in and is taking everything south, because they're siding with one against the other.And in family therapy, we learned to get that third person to just step out of the way and mind their business for a while.
And things settle down and go better.And I thought, maybe the same thing is happening with the center system.Maybe as I'm trying to get you to listen to your critic, a part who hates the critic has jumped in.So I began asking clients,
Can you find the one that's just come in?And could you get it to just relax back in there and wait until we're done?And to my amazement, most clients could do that.
And when they did, it was like it released some other person who came forth, wasn't just curious about the critic, but also now is suddenly not afraid of it, has confidence relative to it, is calm.
has compassion for it even, would say versions of, I'm sorry that it has to do this all the time, but it thinks it does.And a bunch of other what we call C word qualities would just pop out spontaneously.
And in that state, the person would kind of know how to interact with the critic or whatever part in a way that would help it and actually heal it and help it transform and
When I did the same process, the step out process with other clients, it's like the same person would pop up with those same C word qualities of calm, confidence, curiosity, compassion, courage, clarity, creativity, and connectedness.
And so now 40 years later, I can safely say that that isn't everybody.After thousands of clients, now thousands of people using this all over the world,
that that essence is in everybody, can't be damaged, and it's just beneath the surface of these parts such that when they open space, you feel it.You just become that person.
And in that state, you know how to relate to your parts in a good way, and you can relate to other people with those C-word qualities.And so that's the big deal about IFS, that that's in there, that's possible to access fairly quickly, often,
And yeah, so that and that's the model.Basically, it's actually pretty simple.
Fantastic.You explained that so beautifully.I want to just reiterate a couple of things.So you mentioned some questions around this so you make sure that everyone gets this.So you said something very interesting.
I've heard you say it in some of your interviews that you love attachment theory, but they got one thing very wrong.And attachment theory is very all over social media.It's very popularized.
Can you, and I found that really so insightful and observant when you commented on that, because it's something that's worried me as well.Would you mind explaining that?
and then I've got a couple other questions related to the model that I'd love to just clarify for everyone and then I'd love to dive into the workbook to see how people can apply this themselves.But let's start with the attachment theory.
Sure, yeah, so I studied attachment theory in graduate school and loved it and still do most of it, but when I ran into what I just described with the self that I started to question it because
Basically, attachment theory says to have any of those great qualities inside, you had to have gotten it from a relationship.
So either from your caretaker when you were young, or if you didn't get it there, from a therapist or from your spouse or someplace.It's not inherent in us.And I was finding this self in people who had horrible, horrible childhoods.
There was no way I could explain it. its existence through basic attachment theory.
And it wasn't until actually some students said, well, maybe this is like Buddha nature, or maybe this is like Christ consciousness, or maybe this is like Atman in Hinduism, that I started to look around and, oh my God, most spiritual traditions have a word for it, and almost no other psychotherapies do.
And so I love attachment theory with that caveat. that it doesn't allow for the existence of this.
I'm so excited you said that because a lot of the 30 years, 40, nearly 40 years I've been in the field, I've been researching, one of the things is the non-conscious mind.
And there's so many ways that conscious, subconscious, non-conscious, unconscious is used.And the word non-conscious is something that's not used correctly in my opinion at all across the field of psychology and psychiatry.
And yet the non-conscious is literally what you've just described.It's this inner wisdom, it's this self. that has all those eight C qualities and is this filled with everything we need to heal and to be able to talk to those parts.
So, and I agree with you that the attachment theory, those pretty much that self gets, it's untouchable.I agree with you.It's cool.
But then we can have a lot of things almost like, you know, the ivy that goes, you know, if you don't, if you don't look after a garden, all these things, thorns and things can cover up the core of the plant kind of thing.
And so life-saving burdens can do that.You can kind of cover up the self, but the self itself is always protected, and it's always those values, and it's always something that we can learn to access.
And if I'm hearing you correctly, this therapy is enabling people to see how they're showing up with their parts, make friends with those parts, give the parts space, and in order to be able to do that, you're actually tapping into yourself.
So you have to tap into the depths of, you have to consciously tap into your non-conscious, so I call that the non-conscious,
and be able to have these conversations and literally inner dialogue with yourself and make space for each of them and not fight each of them, because each is playing a role, but that role can sometimes become distorted.
So attachment theory, you just learn all of that, I agree is not correct because you learn the distortions, but you don't ever learn the core values, the core self. That is who you are, your uniqueness.And I loved how you explained it.
As soon as I heard that, I thought, wow, you really got this.I love that. Can you explain the eight C's just very quickly because you've referenced them and I know to remember all eight, I think I've got them all up here on the screen.
I'm sure you know them off by heart, but sometimes when you're on the spot, we forget them, but you could just talk about the eight C's for a moment.Confidence, calm, compassion, courage, creativity, clarity, curiosity, and connectedness.Beautiful.
So your literally theory around the eight C's is how the self shows up, and if we can tap into that, if I'm correct in understanding you, we're tapping into key qualities that help us apply wisdom in our life.
That's exactly right.Yeah, when I ran into this in clients, I thought, okay, what do they have in common when they are in this place?And I like alliteration, so I started seeing some of the Cs, and then lo and behold, it turned out
They're all C's, but there are other qualities that don't begin with the letter C. We don't, we don't talk about them, not because of that, but because those eight C's are the ones that are most useful in the healing process.
But there are, we have also the five P's, which includes patience, persistence, perspective, presence, And there's one more I can't remember right now.
Yeah, but I get it.So that's, those are beautiful.So you're saying the C's, almost like the C's come first.So we think of it confidence, the confidence to know that you're okay.
Can you, let's just, let's quickly run through each of them and just give us an indication of how, I want people to really see the depth of the beauty of the self and to give them the belief that this is where we can operate from.
Oh yeah. this is where we can operate from, this is who we really are.And, you know, you make that point too, that we aren't these emotions that get us diagnosed, that there's somebody else in there.And that's a big relief to people to realize.
Huge, huge.So the first one you talk about, I don't need these in any specific order, but you talk about confidence.
A word about that, sentence about that.
just the confidence, not only to work with these scary parts, because, you know, if I'm working with somebody who's terrified of the rage, for example, and the big question to get a sense of how much self is present, if I was working with you,
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Say, how do you feel toward that rage?And you might say, I'm terrified of it because it's caused so much damage in my life.And I would say, that makes sense.But let's see if the one who's so scared of it would give us a little space.
And I would say some other encouraging things like, if it does step out, if it does relax, we might be able to help this rage change. But we can't do that if you're so scared of it.And so then you'd say, OK, it did.It stepped back.
Now how do you feel toward the rage?I'm just kind of curious about why it wants to hurt people.And I feel confident relative to it, out of the blue.I didn't tell you to be confident.I didn't tell you to be curious.You're just there suddenly.
And in that state, now I can have you have a conversation with the rage in which he'll drop his guard and talk about the parts it protects that are stuck back in terrible scenes in the past.And we're doing this with people in jail and lots of stuff.
So that level of confidence that you shift from being really scared of something to suddenly not being scared at all and just have a confident way of relating to it and the same thing people can do in the outside world.
If they're really scared of a certain relationship or having a conversation with somebody, they can work with the scared parts to just let them handle it.
And like when I do an interview, before I come on, I'll ask all my parts to give me a little space and let me handle this. You know, I was thrilled to hear how much you liked IFS, but I didn't know that coming into it, Caroline.
So I would just get them to, okay, I know you're nervous about this, but let me stay inside.Let me just handle this.And I feel the shift and suddenly I'm feeling fine, feel confident.
I love that.That's amazing.So you've literally touched on all of those.
You gave yourself compassion, you calmed yourself down, you got some confidence, you got creative with your answers, you got clarity, you know, you're allowing yourself to do all of those things.So those are just an indication of that's in all of us.
I think that's just so amazing.You also said something very interesting at the beginning, as you were explaining so beautifully how IFS works, how when you first started out in therapy and some of the systems that you were using,
or not even systems because you're a systems person like I am.I also believe in systems and then techniques fit within the systems and there's so many techniques that fit within the systems.
You said something along the lines of you weren't happy with how it was the inner self was ignored and it was all focused on the external, you know, very much sort of cognitive behavior therapy style.That's the wrong thought, let's just replace it.
But there's a whole lot of inner You know, it's almost like, okay, let me not answer the question.
I'd love you to talk more about that, what worried you about the external focus and not enough of the internal, something along those lines you briefly mentioned, and I'd love you to just dive a little deeper into that and the importance.
Yeah, it just was one of these when prophecies fail, because I was this ardent, kind of obnoxious family therapist who thought we'd found the Holy Grail, and then suddenly I'm faced with the fact that
my prophecies failed, that my bulimic kids kept binging and purging despite the fact we'd changed everything that we were supposed to.
And so, you know, rather than try to ignore all that and just say, well, they're sicker than we thought or something, I got curious.And that's how the model happened. Yeah.
Back into the internal parts of the person, you really got down when you said you were pretty emotional when she came in with a gash in her cheek, and that really got you.
And you just kind of dipped right into yourself and then connected with herself.And that's when you kind of gave birth to IFS.
That's a good way to describe it, that at some point I got all my parts with all their fears and assumptions to let me just open my mind a little bit and get curious about the client's parts.
And I'm so grateful to those early clients, because they really just taught it to me.And so that's partly why I'm so, you know, I feel like I'm just a good scientist like you.And I follow the data, and the data took me way outside my paradigm.
My father was a scientist.That was his big advice.Follow the data, even if it takes you way outside your paradigm.
What great advice, what great advice.That's something that I've also done for 40 years and been challenged by so many people along the way.
But, you know, if you keep following the data, you're going to find, because science is just constantly changing, we never have it all.
And that's why systems are so much more efficient than a technique, because techniques will, you know, they're techniques, whereas a system has got room to expand and change. and be adaptive and everything which is so amazing.
You know what I would love to do because I know that people are wanting to know how to do this.I'd love to talk about your book.So you and I've looked through the book and you've got such a beautiful way that you've explained everything.
So you've written a book, you've written lots of books.There's a workbook that's coming out and it's called the Internal Family Systems Workbook. So people can think, okay, this is amazing, but who's doing this?Which therapist?
And I know you've got lots of therapists, and they can find that out to your siting or put all those links at the end.But you can also learn yourself.And I'm a great proponent of self-empowerment, as you are too.
And so what you basically have presented with this is an invaluable practice-oriented tool that literally is created to enhance both self-care and therapeutic application.
So, it's a beginner-friendly overview and I've got the book open in front of me and you literally take them through the process.So, I think what would be very helpful is you've talked about the parts of the model.
Can you explain what those parts are?Once again, I think there's four main parts.Is that correct?There's four main parts because you've got the protector.If you could explain that.
And then starting with, you know, it's the self, that's the core, and then there's these parts that we have, and you've categorized those.
And then maybe we can just talk through a little bit of the layout, because you have like a meditation, and then you have like some, you have little questionnaires, and you take people through the process.Literally, they follow page by page.
It's like literally doing therapy with you.But let's start with the overarching basics of the different parts.What are the different parts?
Yeah, and again, what I'm going to just describe, I want to be clear that these are not the essence of these parts either.These are the roles that they're forced into just like kids in a family.
You work with a dysfunctional family, and they've got a scapegoat, and they've got, you know, somebody else who's in a different role.And you work to change all that.
And it frees these people from the roles they were forced into the same as happening with his internal family.So
But when you first start out, most people have a bunch of what I call exile parts, which are these sensitive inner children who get hurt the most because they're the most sensitive.
And but once they get hurt or terrified or feel worthless, then we don't want anything to do with them.So they get abandoned.So most of us have a bunch of those.
And then when you have a bunch of those, you have protectors that other parts have to become.
They don't like it, but they feel like they've got to do this protective role, often in extreme ways, because you weren't able to protect when you were a kid.And they said, OK, I can't trust Carolina.I'm going to take over.
And so they're kind of running things thereafter.And some of them protect to try and manage your life, and some of them protect in more impulsive ways to get you away from the exiled feelings.So that, again, is the map.
And when I'm working with somebody, and if you wanted a role play, I could walk you through it.
And we could do that, or we can do that.And I also just want to make sure we highlight how you've laid out this book, because I found it very helpful.
Oh, OK.It helps people walk.
through the process of starting to get to know a protector, we always start with protectors, because I learned the hard way, if you go to exiles too quickly, the protectors are gonna backlash, they're gonna punish the client, because they've been trying to keep all this hidden for so many years, and suddenly you're opening the door to it all.
So we work with the protectors first, and the steps for doing that would be to have you focus on this critical voice or this impulse to have a cigarette or whatever the feeling is that gets in your way that you don't like.
And find it in your body, which we've learned allows people not only to have a locus to which they can talk in their bodies, gets them out of their head, but just the act of, oh, okay, it's this pressure in my chest.
separates them from it a little bit.So now there is this part that does this thing to protect.We don't even know that it does it to protect at this point.And it's not me, it's a part of me.
So, and that's very similar to the message that you've been trying to bring for people as well.And so find it in your body.And then that sort of magic question of how do you feel toward this part in your chest.
And if you feel anything besides one of those C words, like if you're afraid of it, or you depend on it, or you hate it, or whatever, then ask those parts to open space until we get you to say you're curious about it at least.Your mind is open to it.
And sometimes we can't get there right away.We have to work with the other protectors that don't want you to talk about it or talk with it first.So then we go over there and we work with them.
But as we're working with all these parts, you're getting more and more access to yourself.You're separating from them.You're seeing them not as you, but they are parts. and there is somebody else who's talking to them.
So you're standing back and observing, you're self-regulating.I have something called the multiple perspective advantage, which is where you're standing back and observing, creating that space, which is, I think, what you're saying with us.
So if I just quickly want to confirm, so we've got the exiles, which are the things that have happened to us, those parts, and then you've got the protectors, the protective parts that can be all kinds of things.
So it's exiles, which are the trauma events or whatever, or things that happen, then you've got the protectors that help us to cope with those.Those are the two main parts, is that correct?
And within each of those, there's different types of exiles, different types of protectors. Okay, so those two main parts, and then obviously- The main categories, absolutely.Okay, two main categories.
So there's the self, which can never be touched, but it can be blocked.So you're training them to get into the self, and you know the self is manifesting.
Your symptoms are the eight C's, for example, and the five P's, and you know when those are starting to pop up, then you are actually operating in the self.Whereas if you are feeling that anxiety in your body, that pressure in your chest, that anger,
then you know that that is one of the exiles or protectors or some combination of.Is that correct?
I understood you.You got it.That's right.That's great.So after I got you curious about the part.
And one of the questions I would have you ask again, this is a protector, it's not an exile.So I would have you ask that whatever it is, critic or rage, whatever, what it's afraid would happen if it didn't do this job inside.
And people are amazed at the answers they get.
If we can get them out, if we get their thinking parts to relax back, so they're really just listening inside in their chest or wherever they find the part, they will get an answer to that question that often blows their mind, which is, I'm afraid if I don't do this, you will feel all this pain that's in there, or that this rage will take over if I don't keep you feeling bad about yourself.
Or and once we get that answer, then I could say, OK, Caroline, I want you to let you know this part is really just trying to protect you.It's not what it seems.It's not a bad part.Can you show it some appreciation for at least trying to help?
And most people can't at that point.And the part who has been vilified for decades now feels the appreciation and it relaxes a lot.And then we negotiate with it permission to go to what it's protecting.And there are steps for trying to heal that.
And then now when we come back to this protector, it's ready to do something different.It doesn't want to have to keep doing this job that's out of date.
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The link and details are in the show notes. As you're talking, I'm thinking of the whole, because I'm a psychoneurobiologist as well, I work in neuroplasticity, I'm thinking, well, you're rewiring networks, basically.
You know, you're rewiring as retraining those parts, it's rewiring.So I wanted to ask you in terms of timing, you know, how long are you finding it takes for someone to start getting to the process where they actually are self-sufficient at
because as you bring each of those parts up and you start saying, okay, this anger, I'm so scared of this anger, because if it gets out of whatever, it's going to cause these kinds of things, which is what it's done in the past.
As they're talking about it, the minute that you talk about it, you have autonomy, you have a level of control and neuroscientifically, we know that you've weakened the network, which means you can restructure the network.
So you have opened up, how long have you found with the restructuring side where people are learning to apply these techniques?Because how long is it taking?Weeks?
Yeah, it varies.So a lot depends on the level of trauma and how extreme these protectors have had to become and how much they trust it's safe to access self, what we're talking, these C words.
And a lot of protectors don't know you, they don't know yourself. they think they're the one that they think they are you.
And so sometimes it's very scary and it's a big identity crisis for them to operate and know, oh, there is this other person in there, who the hell is that?And so a lot just depends on all of that.
There are people who amaze me that they can just take it and run with it.In a matter of weeks, really doing healing work, or at least accessing self, and they're really getting to know these protectors, the protectors are relaxing.
And then there are other people who can do a certain amount on their own through the workbook.But then they get to certain places, they get stuck.And so they need an IFS therapist to help them or some other resource to do that.
But it's just as you say, it's different for every person, it's going to be but this is not a quick fix.I think that's also what I'm trying to emphasize is that this is a process and it's going to take time.
And some of the work I've done is on habit formation and it doesn't nothing's going to happen that stabilizes in under around about nine weeks. So there is time involved, and the more complex, the more time it's going to take.
So I just wanted to really emphasize that for people.This is a phenomenal system.I love it.
You have on page 51, you have 50-51, you talk about speaking for not speaking from part one, and you talk about, see if you can tell the difference between speaking from a part and speaking for a part.I thought that was really
A great way to explain this to people, and you talk about, read the examples below, then label whether the statements are speaking from or for parts.So that, do you want to explain it?
I mean, you give an example here of speaking from would be, you're always on your phone.And then speaking for would be, I have a part that really wants to connect with you.I'll give another one and then you take it away.
Speaking from, what's the point in talking?Nobody cares what I have to say.Speaking for, I have a part that wants to know UK.This was really very, very, very good.Simple concept I thought was really great.
Can you talk more about that and explain that a little more?
Yeah.You know, when we get into conflict in particular, most of us are used to relying on these protectors to take over.And then that'll elicit the protectors and our partner or whoever we're in the fight with.And then it becomes parts for us.
You know, there's just this kind of escalation. eye for an eye escalation that you see in countries actually, but yeah, it's political.
And the simple act of helping each partner do what we call a U-turn in their focus, which is to focus inside and noticing the protector that's doing the talking and separate from it, and then help it trust that there is itself can speak for it rather than from it.
You can now be the voice for it, but from a very different place when you talk to your partner.And you can also speak for the part that it's protecting, that's driving the anger.And so those examples you gave are great.
So rather than me saying, Caroline, why did you ask me that?I hate that question.I might say, oh. When you asked that question, there was a part of me that didn't know exactly how to answer it.
So there's a part of me that got irritated with you, something like that.
That's excellent.For people to be able to distinguish because it changes the whole dynamic in the relationship and it can deescalate arguments and things.
So, you know, I can see where your family therapy experience has come through into this tremendously.So it's like seeing all these parts as a family that you have to keep giving space to, to be able to allow them to express themselves and
de-escalate from that level, which is fantastic.You talk a lot about shame.I heard you in an interview, and I love your take on that.Can you talk a little bit about shame in terms of parts?
Yeah, shame is usually a two or three part phenomenon.So if you said something that I took as shameful, or if I made a mistake in our interview, it might trigger this critic who starts to tell me I'm an idiot or or worse.
And that goes right to the heart of the part of me that feels worthless or feels like I'm stupid or that the exile.So this manager, this critic attacks me, and then I feel the worthlessness.
And then usually to get away from that worthlessness feeling, I'll have some firefighter reaction that only compounds things because it usually is extreme.
So I might argue back and defend myself in an extreme way, or I might just shut down and not talk anymore much.Or I might go on a drinking binge, or I might somehow.And all of those firefighter reactions generally bring more criticism inside.
and you get into that vicious cycle and that's what we call shame.
I heard you in one, that's so well explained, thank you.
I heard you also in one of your interviews talking about how you have been using IFS on yourself with your relationship with your three daughters and how you were very busy with your research and your work and
you felt that this maybe made you your good father, but maybe a little disconnected and how you're busy repairing those relationships.I thought that was amazing what you were saying.
Could you talk just for a couple of minutes about that and how you've used IFS on yourself, which I thought was wonderful.It made me think of myself.
I'm always using my own system on myself to make sure I can fix up all the, you know, you can be, being parenting is one of the most difficult things in the world.I have four children and you look back and think, oh my gosh, how did I do that?
And then, you know, you've got to work through all these things.And I felt very impressed when you were talking about that.So if you wouldn't mind sharing that a little bit.
I have to.You know, I came out of my family with a lot of worthlessness for various reasons.And with that came a part that was determined to prove that I was valuable.And so when I ran into this phenomena,
I saw it as the way I was going to prove that.And so this kind of workaholic part took over.And so when I was raising my kids, you know, I was, when I was around, I was a pretty good father, but they all talked about IFS as the fourth sibling.
I have three daughters and the preferred sibling.So, so they, you know, felt resentful and they felt the
And luckily at the time, I was married to a wonderful mother who, because they're all now pretty healthy, but I was much more absent than was good.
And it's been, I moved to Boston away from Chicago and then came back to Chicago about three years ago.And we've been having these great conversations with my adult kids now, where I can apologize for that part of me.
listen to how the impact it had on them and do a lot of repairing.So yeah, so I've had to use this on myself.And it doesn't hurt that IFS has become successful, so I don't have to work as hard as I did.
But I also worked a lot with the parts that needed the accolades or that needed the sense that I was valuable through that so that I'm not as driven as I was.I still work hard. not from those motives.
I'm doing it from a different place and I can be much more myself with my kids than I was back then.
Amazing.So your parts have kind of balanced off and calmed down.They are running under the control of the eight Cs. Last question, which is a big question.So we're probably going to have to do a part two of this.And I'd love to have you back again.
What is your take on addiction and on applying IFS in addiction?And addiction is such a mess.I don't believe it's a disease.I'd love to know what your take is.
And I mean, I can just see that this is, IFS is an amazing way of helping people who balance, who battle with addictions of all times.
Very, very similar to what I've been saying. There is often an addict part that is trying to, is a firefighter initially, and then it kind of becomes a manager.And it's really just trying to keep you away from your exiles a lot of the time.
So you don't feel the pain and you get triggered in some way and you gotta go and get drunk.And it's really just trying to protect.And then it gets vilified by the culture, everybody around you, and also by a lot of the treatment center stuff.
And so, you know, this has been a controversial approach for us to actually honor those addict parts for their service and then learn about what they're protecting and heal that and then finding that once we heal that, they don't want to, they're not inherently addictive.
just are terrified that if they don't do this you're going to die.A lot of the time they really believe that.So helping them into new roles.So it's a very different approach to addiction.
I love it.I love it.I think it's fantastic because you're actually making so much sense as you explain it. My approach is very much on the same lines along that I totally agree.
You've got those protective instincts and we go to on a wire, where's that coming from?You don't just do that.There's a reason and if you can get that conversation going in your parts, I mean, how wonderful.
I love listening to your interview I heard with you because we're on the same page with that.If you just listen inside, you'll learn where the root of this is and you'll you'll have a very different perspective on all these protectors, so yeah.
That's wonderful.Thank you for saying that.
I think that what you and I are both trying to say is that, you know, it's inside of us, the self is there, and if we can tap into the self, there is so much wisdom there, and there's so much of the world telling us to do this, do this, do this, do this, do this, lots of doing and external techniques and that sort of thing, which is the question, why I asked you that question again about the external
focus is not good enough.We have to give the internal focus and so I really honor that in the work that you do and I'm excited about your books and about your new book coming out.
Where can people find out more about you, Dick, and learn more about IFS and the book and everything?
Yeah, our website is just dashinstitute.com. And yeah, I think the workbook comes out in December, I'm not sure, but I think you said December 3rd.
I've got the date here, December 3rd, 2021.
Yeah, and there's a bunch of, like you said, a bunch of other books and lots of videos and things explaining your technique.
Yeah, so we'll put all of that in the show notes.And thank you so much for your wisdom, your work and your time today.And I look forward to talking again for sure and diving a little deeper.
I would love to see how we might want to work together even.And as I said, I had parts nervous coming into this, and I just have loved it.So I really appreciate it.
Oh, I've loved it too.It's been fascinating, and I love what you're doing.And it just makes so much sense.So thank you for your work.And I am excited to see where this goes and how in the future and working together and all kinds of wonderful things.
So thank you so much for joining me today.I really appreciate it.
Thanks everyone for joining us and we'll see you next time. I hope you found today's podcast interesting and helpful.If you want more tips and help with managing anxiety, depression and mental health, be sure to visit my website at DrLeaf.com.
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