Increasingly, conversations that brands have with their consumers, their customers, their potential customers, start and end in social media.
There's other media at play too, of course there is, but the tone that social media sets for a brand can be hugely important.
Often the work that goes into the social media feeds of brands, businesses and organisations is set and delivered by social media managers.What is a social media manager?Good news! In this week's Rocketfuel, we're gonna find out.
My name is James Erskine, and this week's guest is Zandrina Alday, and she has authored a book called Dear Social Media Manager.
And the book is a number of letters written by people that work in social media to social media managers, and the conversation spans
as well as Zandrina's background, as well as Zandrina's current work talking at social media conferences, we also get into the work of a social media manager and we have a broader conversation about platforms specifically and the importance of social media on the lives of young people.
We also then, as we always do at the end, ask Zandrina Alday for her rocket fuel. So this week's guest is Zandrina Alday.I know her as a speaker on social media and all things social media.I've seen her at a couple of conferences and she's brilliant.
You may know her as the person that's put together the recent book, Dear Social Media Manager, which I was incredibly flattered to contribute a letter towards.We'll come on to the book later, Zandrina, but first of all, welcome.
Thanks so much for being this week's guest on Rocketfuel.
Oh, thanks so much for having me, James.I'm excited to be here and to chat all things social media to you and also your audience.
Yeah, that's exciting.Thank you.Why don't we start?Well, let's get to know you.That's the point of this first section.Give us, bring to life your journey for us.How have you ended up where you are now?
Yeah, absolutely.So like many people working in social media, which I came to learn in my book, a lot of us have seemingly fallen into our careers.We didn't necessarily plan to end up in social media.And that is definitely the case for myself.
I actually started my career in events management and marketing.So I was kind of marketing events and managing them.And then I found that social media really interested me on the marketing side.So I started to kind of go down that path.
And then, yeah, before we know it, I'm now 10 years on.And I've been working in social media, both on B2B and the B2C side.And I now lead social media for LabX Media Group.I'm now a speaker and an author too.
So it kind of wasn't a linear path, necessarily.I just kind of niched down further and further.
until I got to kind of where I am now and then progress my career I guess like rising through into management and managing teams and that kind of thing so it was all kind of a natural progression um once I was in social media but took a little while to get there I guess.
And who has impressed you or what has impressed you on the way?
Honestly, there's so many people, so many brands that I could mention.Two of them, they're both my friends, but two people who are amazing in the social media space that I'd love to highlight is Annie May-Hod.
She is the founder of Girl Power Marketing.She has a huge community kind of serving marketeers and putting out social media updates and things like that, which is just amazing.
And then Lucy Hall, who you obviously know, who puts on some fantastic events for the social media community.
And they both impressed me because they have their community and they kind of share with no expectation and they give back time and time again.And that's what social is really about.
And how do you as an individual stay focused?And how do you innovate?How do you juggle that doing the day-to-day whilst looking to shake things up?
Yeah, it's definitely a challenge, I guess, especially when you're working in social media, you know, we've got distractions literally at our fingertips.
So you've got to kind of be aware of your own use, and I guess put parameters in there not to get too distracted, because that is, you know, social media is designed to hook us in.But I think we most of us who work in
the industry are aware of that, so you can kind of start to build that separation, or at least we try to.
But in terms of innovating, I think there's so many different brands and individuals we can take inspiration from, even if they're not necessarily in the industry or space that we're working in.
So I never like to look at like competitors or brands in a similar industry.
I like to look outside the industry that I'm working in and then kind of look at what other people are doing and take inspiration and then use that to innovate new products, concepts, you know, pieces of content, things like that.
And you're a mum, you work incredibly hard.How do you relax?How do you switch off?And do you find yourself working all hours?Are you quite strict with how you work?What's your day-to-day look like?
Yeah, every day is different.I'm very lucky.I've been given amazing flexibility from my workplace.So I don't work full time hours.I work 26, 27 hours for them.
But then I also obviously do the speaking side, you know, my author, my writing, and then I create UGC content as well.
So it's kind of I do a lot after hours once the kids are in bed to kind of juggle those extra things that I do for myself on the freelance side.In terms of like relaxing, I love to read.
So I'm an avid reader, both personal development books, but also just anything and everything. that takes my fancy.But I love socialising, I love like, I'm a big foodie, so I'm always at a restaurant or something like that.
But I do like to stay busy, I'm not really one to just kind of sit down and chill, even though every now and then I will binge a box set.
Okay, and just interested, because when I go on holiday, I really expatiate in doing nothing.I have such simple goals, and it's a podcast and a sun lounger.Are your holidays more action-packed, or are you good at doing nothing?
I can do nothing on holiday, but I couldn't do like a week of doing nothing.So I could probably do like a morning of chilling by the pool, again, reading a book.So if I've got a book to keep me busy or a podcast to listen to, then that's fine.
But I have to have activities.Like we're off to New York this month.And honestly, I've got a jam-packed itinerary.But obviously, that's the city breaks are a bit different.But there is not a moment where there is not something planned.
Yeah, I hear you.In terms of you and what you're known for, what do you think people say about you behind your back?What do you think you are known for?
I think I'm known for, I don't like the word expert, but I'm known for knowing my field and knowing social media.
So both, you know, within the company I work for, but also externally, people know they can come to me for social media guidance or social media advice.
I'm now known for obviously speaking on that both internally, externally, and as an author, I think now, obviously, if that is the case.
And in terms of collaborating, are there qualities that you look for in people when you're looking to work with them?Is there a defining type of person that makes the best person to collaborate with?
Do you look for different things in different people?What are you looking for?
I generally look for I mean, there's one thing that I look for in people, whether I'm working with or not, or just like, you know, would there be a potential friend or anything like that is kindness, you know, if somebody is not kind, I'm not interested in having any kind of relationship with that person.
I think kindness is free, so I think that's something that everybody can be.But in terms of actually collaborating with people, I look for people who are passionate and creative.
I think you don't necessarily always need to have a lengthy background in an industry to have good ideas or to have passion.You've just got to be somebody you know, we all start somewhere essentially.
So you could be somebody who's new to an industry or wanting to break into an industry.It doesn't mean you've not got good ideas.
So I think, yeah, as long as you're passionate and creative, then you'll go far and you'll be a great person to work with.
And in terms of mentoring people, or whether you've ever had a mentor, whether informally or formally, is that something you've done?Have you mentored people?
Are there specific people along the way who have given you sage advice and guided you in your career?
Yeah, absolutely.I've been both a mentor and a mentee.Mentors, I've had formal mentors and I've also had like informal mentors where I guess I've just kind of asked them a question and then they've come back to me and that kind of thing.
I think in today's busy world, it's hard to get like a dedicated mentor where you're going to sit down and regularly have like a ketchup or a coffee because people are busy and a lot of the time people think, you know, well, what's in it for me?
Some people want to, you know, give back, but you know, you know, we all have these busy schedules.So I think sometimes it's, you know, asking a question, but not having an expectation for a longer term relationship.
But if they know something that you don't know, that you'd like to know, you know, it can just be a quick LinkedIn message, it can be mentors doesn't have to be like a long term thing.I mean, absolutely can be and I have had those two.
But you can learn something from people who, again, necessarily don't have as much experience as you in a different field.Like today, we're seeing loads of people you know, in Gen Z, create an amazing social media content.
And so, you know, I'm a millennial, but I can learn from them.It's not because I'm older and have necessarily more wisdom in years tenure, for example.
I think we can, it's peer to peer, it's not necessarily mentor and mentee now, we kind of level playing field, it's just reaching out and connecting.
And you're incredibly well informed.That's one thing I've noticed.What's your media diet?Where do you get the stuff from?And yeah, where do you consume your news?Where do you consume your social media updates?
Yeah and so again I mean LinkedIn is a great place for it if you're following the right people and there's lots of updates on there but also you know there's great you know blogs or news websites like Social Insider pulls together some amazing reports
So I love going into those.But yeah, there's lots of different industry reports out there and different platforms that are coming out and sharing more information.So I go through the motions every day.
I'm looking at what's new, have we got any new major platform updates, that kind of stuff.I try and spend a little bit of time every day just reading a bit more about what's going on, whether any platform updates are going to affect
me and my work, how we could potentially use that.I'm a firm believer that if a platform gives a new feature, that if it's within your bandwidth to do so, then jumping on that is going to give you an advantage in the algorithm.
So, the concept of Dear Social Media Manager, do you want to bring that to life for the listeners?Because it's not a book written by you, it's a series of letters, right?
Yeah, absolutely.It's a collaboration effort that I was, I guess, the brains behind. I attend many social media events.
I was attending two back in May, this is 2024, and I love the events because you get to chat to so many people and you really feel like you're within the social media community and within our peers. Those events are so great.
And I was thinking to myself how sometimes, especially if you're like a team of one working in social media, you don't always have access to these events.
It might be that your company can't afford to send you to them, or you might not even know about them.So I was like, how can I have that community?
you know, somehow to these people that may not have access to it, or even, you know, even the ones who do have access, you know, on a bad day, or a good day, you want your peer support.
And I was like, a book, a book is the perfect answer to this, because it's accessible to everybody.And, you know, it's, you know, a low cost option.And you can have your peers literally in your pocket.
And that's really where it stemmed from, from all the amazing people that I've met and all the stories that I know that people have got.That was like the advice that we could share in this book would be so important to so many.
And it feels quite social media, the fact that it's a collaborative effort.
The thing in the letter that I wrote, and we'll come on to a little bit more about that, was what I got frustrated because I did a first draft ignoring the limit, if you like, and then I had to edit it down.
I'm guessing it was a deliberate thing that you wanted to keep the letters quite short.Why was that?
Yeah, I thought, you know what, let's keep them succinct because then if people only have five minutes and they want to pick up the letter, they can literally just dive in and read a letter.
And that is actually how people, some people have told me that's how they're reading the book.They're not sitting there and reading it all in one go.They're reading a letter a day or they're, you know, you know, they're having a bad day.
So they're looking for something that could quickly resonate with them in that moment.And that's why I thought it's so important that we don't, you know, spend too much, you know,
too much time on each letter, not too much time in terms of writing them, but in terms of the length, so they could be read quite quickly.
That's exactly how I use it.If I'm looking for inspiration and I want a kind of a quick win and a big idea, I'll dive into one or maybe two letters and then walk away.And it's great for that, it really is.
Did anything surprise you in the content that you got back?
I don't think it surprised me because like I say I have this amazing like network of peers and that's obviously how the book came together so I'm often having these conversations but I do think there might be things in there that surprise other people.
I think with the book it covers such an array of topics
that, you know, depending on where again, whether you're coming in, you just want to learn more about social media, whether you're an aspiring social media manager, or whether you've been in it for a long time, there might be things that are surprising.
But yeah, not not necessarily to myself.
Okay and let's zoom out a second let's go for a helicopter view because why don't you bring to life what let's go really simple what is the social media manager because it varies from business to business right
Absolutely.So yeah, I mean the social media manager title, like you say, it is so different from business to business, but essentially it is somebody who is responsible for managing social media assets,
But in some companies, that could be that you're creating content.In other companies, it could be that you're just putting the content out, and there could be somebody else creating it.It could mean that you manage a team.
I actually think the social media manager title, I think we do need to be careful with lumping everything into the social media manager title, rather than having social media content creator, social media specialist, social media team lead.
I think we do need to differentiate the roles a bit more when people are advertising in our industry because it's kind of just lumping everybody into that one title and that doesn't really suit anymore.
And in terms of a big sweeping question, what do you see as more important, creativity or data?
I am somebody who very much is on both sides.I think you need both.I think that not everybody possesses the skill set of being able to work in both areas.
And that's also something that people need to consider when they're looking at, you know, posting these jobs is not everybody wants to be on the data side.And then not everyone wants to be on the creative side.
You might find people who sit in the middle.I think data is so important because it tells us things and we can learn from it.And I always say there is no bad data. because you can learn from it, essentially.
So if you're using the data to be informed in your future content creation, but then you might have other people that just want to get out and make these ideas a reality and create that content.
So I think it's really important you have that within your team, but it doesn't necessarily need to be with one person.However, if I guess you're only looking to hire one person, then you do need to be a generalist and can work on both sides.
Let's, I mean my letter, I focused on what we can learn from previous iterations of social media and how we can use what's happened in the past in the future.
So I looked at the story of Friends Reunited, I looked at a little bit of Myspace and whilst that seems like a really I mean, look, I'm 46, so I'm Gen X, I'm really old.
But what I wanted to do was apply some of the models, both the business models and the content models, and see whether you could reflect them through the prism of modern social media.And do you, I mean, do you echo my thoughts?
Do you think there is anything in looking into the past to predict the future?
I definitely think you're onto something there.I think when I look back, like Bebo, for example, was one of my favorite platforms when I was younger.And one of the things you could do is you could have music on your page.
And now we see on Instagram, you could put music on your posts.So it's like little things like that.There's definitely been nods to past platforms.And also, I think I do think, I mean social media, it started and it was community focused.
We were focused on having those kind of interpersonal connections online and then I think it's massively evolved over the years to become this content machine, okay, that kind of pulls us in.
I do think we're coming back out the other side and it is now starting to be more of those relationships and those authentic connections.
So I do think we've kind of done this full circle and I do wonder whether we'll do that again like say like start the 20-year cycle again and again then people's consumption and their user habits change as a result of that.
So I loved Vine.I remember when Vine was first becoming popular and somebody said, and I forget who it was, somebody a lot cleverer than me, they said, Twitter is a platform, but Vine is an art form.
And that really plays in to what you were saying about how there's a content play, there's a platform play, there's a community play. What's going to happen next?Are there social media platforms that we should be looking out for?
Are there new formats and new features on existing platforms?Where are we going to go next, do you think?
I think there's always space for new platforms.I mean, if I had the answer of what the new platform would be, then I would be a multimillionaire.
However, I think, yeah, there's always going to be space for something new, because our needs as consumers are going to shift through the generations as the generations kind of come up and use social media.So there will be room for new platforms.
And as we see, there'll be the decline of platforms potentially as well.And, you know, we, for example, Facebook is currently, you know, an older generation are using it.
But then, you know, I still use it, for example, I use it for marketplace, but I don't use it for really anything else.But that is my pride.If I go on to Facebook, obviously, I use it, I do use it in a work capacity.
But I use it for marketplace only in my personal capacity.So it's like looking at those shifts.
And also, how can the platforms move with that, I think, generally speaking, when we're looking at like, what's next, I think what we're seeing, I've kind of spoke about a minute ago, is we are starting to see this consumer shift right now.
And I think people do want more of that authenticity.We don't like the polished content so much anymore.People are kind of starting to send away from that.So we're seeing more like day in the life logs.
We're seeing more of the people behind the brands and that kind of thing.And that's what's working really well now because people, essentially people buy from people.
So humanizing those brands is, you know, we've seen the start of it, but I think we're going to see the continuation of that for the next few years.
And how much do you think social media managers, and I'm guessing the answer is it depends on the brand, but how much should they be looking for the next platform?How much should they be experimenting versus doing what they know works?
I think they don't necessarily need to always be looking for the next platform, because when the new platform kind of emerges, we will hear about it collectively.It will be talked about in our space.There will be thoughts.
We'll see if people jump onto it.So I think you can't really prepare for it until it happens, because you don't know what's going to be next.And then it's a situation of, is it right for the brand?Should we trial it?Should we experiment?
Should we see what it's about? Going back to your other point, 80-20 split is probably sensible, 80% of doing what works, but 20% you definitely need to be innovating and experimenting, because if you don't, then that's where you'll fall behind.
But I don't think it's always necessarily jumping on trends.I think trends are great, but trends come and go.They're not sustainable.But when you look at broader things, like for example, when we've seen the rise of short-form content,
So even LinkedIn right now are introducing obviously the video feed.So it's like thinking, okay, well, if you're not already producing more short form content is a sustainable move and a long term move because it's happening on multiple platforms.
So that's the kind of thing that I'm like, okay, that you should absolutely incorporate because of course, we've all got different budgets, team sizes, there's so many variables.
I think one of the other things that really came across in the book, as well as the variety of what different social media managers can do and are doing, it almost was like a trade union for social media managers.
A flag-waving exercise to get them further up the consideration internally in big businesses. I've recently seen a talk where if you call marketing marketing, you're not going to get a seat in the boardroom.
If you call it something else that's more tangible to business results, then you may start to get listened to as a marketing department.And I think the same is true as social media managers.
So do you think businesses know what social media managers do?
I think it's mixed.I think some businesses do understand social media because they may have a great relationship with their social media team.
But I think there's other businesses that still don't understand how it impacts business, what they could gain from it, why they should be on there.And I mean, there's so many reasons, obviously, why social media is important.
It future-proofs you as a business, which is something I don't think a lot of people think about.It's a way of connecting with your next generation of customers.
And you can kind of prepare for that in advance, which I think is one of the really key important things that people are missing.I think social media, it offers us a way to connect with people, you know, on a scale, which you couldn't do without it.
And it's, you know, it's great, it's great to build like your email list from your social media audience and things like that. There's so many different ways that social media can benefit a business.
Of course, it's direct sales, it's the paid side, it's the organic side.But essentially, I think the quote goes something like, you know,
out of everybody available out there, 95% of people aren't ready to buy, only 5% are, so we need to be marketing to the 95% because when they are ready to purchase, you want to be the first brand at mind.
So if you're, you know, and social media can reach more people than other marketing methods, that's why I'm very biased at social media, not to say it's, you know, they all have their place, but it's so important in business.
And I think, I actually think there's a place, there's almost like a gap missing in the events market for social media right now, where we should be informing, you know, our C-suite teams, our exec teams about social media and the power of that.
There almost needs to be an event dedicated to that, to explore kind of how it impacts business.So they've got that better understanding because Without it, how can they truly invest in it and give free reign to these teams?
That's a really good idea.If nothing else comes from this conversation, then that's the one we should take forward.You're quite right.The C-suite social conference is definitely the way forward.
You've touched on it there in terms of the various jobs that social media can do.I think In the world of digital marketing, you could argue that we're racing to the bottom, that it's so offer-driven, it's so last-click driven.
Do you think that you can build a brand and give brand equity in social media?
Yeah absolutely I think you can definitely build a brand on social media both as a company brand but as an individual brand too.
We're seeing the rise of obviously personal brands right now and you know I think it's so important that we again we start to humanize brands on the company side and that we encourage people to build personal brands as well because they can represent your company and
people buy from people essentially.So I think, yeah, leveraging that, you know, we're starting to see the rise of people having like employee influences in their teams.So their employees are becoming the face of these companies.
And, you know, we've seen recently on TikTok, you know, some people have created content for a company and then, you know, the company hasn't been happy with it, for example.
But yet they've amassed this like, you know, million following and they've got thousands, hundreds of thousands of millions of views for a company.
So I think it's just understanding that, you know, you can have a brand identity on social, but that can also differ from your brand identity across other marketing methods too.
You don't have to essentially copy and paste your marketing methods onto social media, which I think is really important. you can have a slightly different tone of voice as long as it's still relating to your brand values.
And I think that's what it comes back to.If your brand values are still at the core of it, you can have, you know, a different tone of voice in social media than your other marketing methods.
Yes, that's interesting actually, isn't it?Because you see some brands that are both incredibly tight in terms of their brand guidelines being reflected on social media.
But the opposite is sometimes true, where you see TikTok trends as a go-go on a brand's TikTok, and it doesn't say anything at all about the brand.So the right mix is key. Let's zoom in.
Let's go into some platforms and I want to ask you a few questions on some platforms specifically.I can't remember the last time I was in a client meeting when someone said Facebook.I want to get your view on that.
You mentioned that you use Facebook for Facebook Marketplace.
I use Facebook partly because my beautiful wife runs N1 Islington Parents and it's a great community of ideas and it's about 1,500 people strong but it's a really good community and it's an example of how Facebook can work
Do you think, I mean, it sounds crazy because it's so big.Do you think there's a future for Facebook?What's, yeah, do you think brands should think about Facebook?
Well, I do use Facebook a lot in my job.It's one of the places we've got some of our biggest followings and we do still get great impressions and reach and the community is active.We've got Facebook pages, we've got Facebook groups.
which is incredible.But again, we are marketing primarily to a slightly older generation who are primarily obviously on Facebook as their chosen platform.
So again, I think it depends on who your target audience is, because obviously if your target audience isn't of the generation that's on Facebook, then there's no point being on there.
Over the past few years though, when we're like zooming out and looking at bigger household name brands, we have seen people step away from organic social on Facebook,
But it's also important to remember that obviously, Meta has, you know, such a big paid social space.And those ads are not just for Facebook, but they're for Instagram, too.
So when we're using Meta Business Suite, and we're kind of creating through Ads Manager, we've got that side of social media, too.So I think Facebook's got its place both with organic and paid, but only if it's right.
And because I guess meta is so encompassing with the Instagram brand, they're kind of, yeah, they're pass and parcel.
But I don't know whether to say, you know, in the future, they may innovate and do something that makes, you know, the younger generation want to come back to Facebook.
You know, there's always the potential, they've got the monopoly, but it's just how they change and innovate with the platform too.
And maybe it'll be a geographical thing because there are definitely regions of the globe where Facebook is still younger than perhaps in the Western world, than in the UK and in America.So it could be geographically split.
Let's talk about X, formerly Twitter.First of all, it's funny, politically I struggle because When Elon Musk was an eccentric entrepreneur, I could tolerate his idiosyncrasies.Now I struggle and I really, I do see a difference in X in Twitter.
Do you think it's changed and do you think the way it's being used has changed?
Yeah, massively.I personally don't use it at all anymore for personal consumption.I just don't think it, I mean, the feed isn't even the same anymore.
So when I go on there, I mean, not only do a lot of the people that I previously interacted with, their content's not on there.
you know the content that I am seeing isn't content that I'd want to see or interact with so my feed is not what it once was and I think we're seeing the shift of a lot of people have moved away from the platform for reasons like that and also because of the political side there's you know there's so many different things going on on there that it really doesn't feel like you know a community space anymore I think that's what it's missing x when it was Twitter
was amazing for being community-led and having conversations, and it was a very conversational space.But I feel like it's getting to become more of an argumentative space.
For me, I'm a very positive person, and I feel like whenever I've been on that platform since the changes that have happened, it is more negative than positive, and that's not how I want to fill up my cup.So for me, that's not my platform anymore.
I couldn't agree more.Just out of interest, have you gone anywhere?Have you directly replaced it?Have you replaced it with threads or with blue sky or anything like that?
You know what?I actually, I do like threads.I don't tend to post on threads, but actually it's very, the feed is very good at knowing what you like, which I like.So you get more of what you like in the feed and it's very quick to pick up on that.
Similar to like TikTok, for example, the algorithm.So I think that's great because If you're just browsing and you want to see content you're interested in, Threads will deliver it for you.
But I think the way that I used to use Twitter and have those conversations, I've gone on to LinkedIn.Obviously, I now build my personal brand on there.And I think LinkedIn is very much like what Twitter was.But obviously, it's a
it's not long form content but it's longer form than obviously what Twitter and X is.
So I think yeah a lot of people have made that shift to LinkedIn and there was a consumer report done a few maybe about a year ago and I can't remember who it was by now but it showed that I think the large majority of people that have replaced kind of Twitter and X as their kind of platform of choice, the majority of them are going to LinkedIn to have those same conversations.
That's fascinating.And you're so right.I mean, Twitter when it was, Twitter was a newsfeed, but you're right.It was also a community and quite positive and silly at times.
My favorite Twitter thread ever was something called, Do They Know It's Christmas? And what it was was a series of visuals on where people had been made to sleep on Christmas Eve.
So you know how when you go back to your in-laws or your own parents and you're either in your childhood bedroom or you're in the garage or you're in somewhere that was utterly, yeah, unacceptable.But it was so funny.
And yeah, it just shows what Twitter once was.Let's go on to LinkedIn because you've mentioned it.The big kind of development in LinkedIn seems to be the video channel and what they're placing around that.Do you want to talk to that a second?
And is LinkedIn video something you've experimented with yourself?
Yeah, so obviously the new feed in video has recently come.And you know what?People have had mixed opinions on it, even before it launched.Because I think with LinkedIn, it is primarily, obviously, a written-based content platform.
So people are like, well, I like it because I like reading the written word.So why is it going to have video?But the great thing about what they've done is they've separated the two.
So you will see if somebody you follow or are connected with, if they post a video, you might see that in your main feed.
If you want to just consume videos, you have to go to the separate tab for the video feed, which I think is a really clever move by LinkedIn, because it is separating how people want to consume content, which is important.I've posted a few videos.
None of them have gone to, I guess, the lengths of being viral.But they have had good engagement.And it is something that I'm now building into my own personal brand strategy.
And it's something that I definitely would encourage people to experiment with. I mean, some people who use LinkedIn in general for content, some people just stick to one content type.
So some people do just written or they'll do images or carousels or now just video content.But I am somebody who has mixed mediums and that's always worked well for me.So I think it's like any platform, find what works for you.
if video content works well and it's something you're able to sustain and produce then great and I kind of just do like little snippets of me chatting kind of from time to time and that works well for me but I don't think I'd want all my content to be you know video based on that primarily just because I do like the written word of it but
I think, yeah, it's interesting.I like LinkedIn because it is innovative, but it feels like it does listen to the community.
And also, what I love about LinkedIn is if you have a question, you can reach someone within 24 hours, whereas other platforms, you can't do that.So I think the support on LinkedIn is great.
You can get some, if you know how to, you can get some insider knowledge from time to time, even from the support reps, which is amazing.
Let's jump to TikTok.Stupid question.Did you see it coming?And when did you see it coming?Because I was dismissing it.I don't mind cards on the table.I dismissed it as young people doing dances for quite a long time.
I dismissed it as if Instagram was for your perfect self, LinkedIn was your professional self, TikTok was your silliest self, but now it's everything.So when did you realise what a behemoth it was and how long ago, I suppose?
So I was aware of TikTok when it launched.And I, again, very similar to you, I kind of didn't necessarily think it was a space for me.I saw it as something for maybe the younger generations.
So even though I had an account to kind of see what it was about, I was like, ah, this is not really for me right now.So I didn't anticipate the rise of TikTok and what it has now become.Because also, it's not just a social media platform.
It's a search platform. You know, we use it inherently for search.And we've got a whole different generation using it as their primary search method over Google, which is also fascinating.So that is really going to twist the tables like long term.
But yeah, I think really my personal use and professional use and curiosity as well really has only been the past couple of years.But now I do, I use it probably I use Google and TikTok for different things when I use the search bar.
So for example, if I'm planning like a trip, I will use TikTok as part of like my itinerary planning.You know, I mentioned earlier, I'll go to New York.So you can visually see food places, not just read about them.
So when you're, you know, looking for something and almost, it's like the consumer customer reviews in real time that you're getting.And I think, and again, short form videos, you're not having to spend too long on it.
So I think yeah the rise of TikTok will continue and we'll continue to see I think the you know the age the generations that use it I think will widen and I do think more people will go on to it so it won't just be you know for the younger generations I think as well as getting you know
you know, there might be tweens or teens using it as they kind of grow up, I think we'll also be getting, you know, boomers and Gen X kind of coming on to it as well as they start to learn how they can use it too.
So let's, I don't want you to necessarily speculate on the U.S.election, but Donald Trump has said he would keep TikTok exactly as is, which he flipped his position.
Joe Biden originally said that he would bring something into law that would mean that ByteDance had to sell the U.S.part of TikTok to effectively a U.S.business. Kamala Harris has yet to come out and say what she would do.
What do you think is possible and what do you think might happen?Do you see ByteDance selling?Do you see it falling apart?And how will that then affect TikTok?I mean, can they share algorithms with their Singapore-based headquarters?
I mean that is a big question and I think it is hard to speculate.I mean I'm not in mergers and acquisitions so I can't even imagine how you begin with such a huge platform like that to handle it.But I think, I don't think TikTok's going away.
So regardless of what happens in America and the decisions they come to, I don't think that TikTok will disappear.I think some people have been worried about that.
And like, you know, what does that mean, especially for, I guess, other countries, you know, I don't think we're gonna have an issue with TikTok.So I think I do see potentially it becoming more of a mutual
agreement, I feel like they're gonna have to come to some sort of agreement rather than potentially a sale.So I don't know what that might look like.
But that's what I mean, that would be probably in the best interest of ByteDance, but also the US, you know, if they can come to some sort of, yeah, agreement, then that's going to keep all parties happy.
I think that's what the consumers would prefer to happen as well.And obviously,
If you don't listen to your consumers, then you lose them because also the challenge would be is if it did get sold, you know, like we've seen with X, the platform completely changes and then people potentially don't use it in the same ways and that kind of thing.
So I think there's a lot that TikTok and I guess the US government can learn from what happened with Twitter and X and that acquisition.Yes. Yeah, and I think that's a really good point.
Yeah, I think that will definitely impact on what happens, because there's nothing like that with Twitter and X has happened previously, right?We've never seen such a big acquisition.
So I think a lot can be learned from how the platform changed for better or worse.
That makes sense.Before we go back to the book, let me prime your personal life very quickly, if I may.You're a mum.How are you going to navigate social media for your children and with your children?
Have you set guidelines now for when they reach a certain age? Do you know people that I know have talked about, yes they are allowed an account when they're 12 as long as they follow me and I can follow them.
Other people have said no smartphones to 16.Have you strong views yourself on how you're going to help your kids navigate social media?
Yeah, I have very strong feelings on it.I want to wrap them up with cotton wool when it comes to social media.I know that's not impossible.
I think because I am very knowledgeable about the subject, obviously it's what I do, I feel like I've got more tools in my toolbox to prepare them. There is a movement, I can't think of it exactly, but it's basically like Smart Phone Free Childhood.
I think that's what it's called at the moment.You probably heard of it.And that's all about, you know, kind of delaying the smartphone.
So they're saying, you know, if you want to give your child a smartphone, give them like a brick phone, kind of like the old Nokia 3310, 3210s that we had, which I think is a great idea.
And that's something that I think that I'll implement is, you know, when they get to secondary school, You could have a phone, but it's not going to be a smartphone.
And also, because I don't want to ostracize my children, obviously, a lot could happen.My youngest has just started reception.No, my eldest has just started reception.
So we've got a long time before I really need to get into the nitty gritty with this.But with that, I think we're going to have a house smartphone.So back in the days when I was younger, we had a house phone.We don't now.
But I think we'll have a house smartphone.And that will be somewhere that is joint.So everybody knows everybody's allowed to look at it.So nothing is necessarily secret.
But if she wants to, if they want to use WhatsApp to message their friends, because if that's where they communicate, then they will be allowed to do that.
But they'll have the like the safety parameters that, you know, mum and dad still look at that, we all use it.If you want to make a call, absolutely, that's fine.So it'll be kind of more of a soft introduction to social media.
And then we can, we can talk about platforms, you know, we can show platforms and talk about them.And then I don't know what age I'll be like, you can have social media, whether that'll be 14 or 16 or even 18.
I haven't kind of thought about that yet because I guess I'm not at that stage, but I would definitely have parameters in place to kind of, I guess, safeguard my kids and also just give them the knowledge and give them all of the, this is what happened when I was at school.
These are the things, you know, that are out there.I want to start to pepper that in as they get older, like these are, You know, these are the reasons I had a conversation again with my eldest the other day.
And I said, oh, do you know that I heard Kristen Bell actually talk about this on a podcast?And I thought this is amazing.So I'm going to use the same example.
And she said her and her husband basically teach the kids that the phones play tricks on you.So it's like I go to do this on my phone and then it plays a trick on me because it wants me to stay on the phone and it wants to keep me in.
But I only want to do this task and then I want to come off it.But it's pulling me in.So we've started that conversation of like, oh, it tricks me to stay longer on it.
So that's the kind of the first step to kind of show her that like, you can be sucked into this, but we, you know, there's obviously so much positive to social media, but there's also a negative.
And I really want to make that clear to my kids as I raise them.
That's a really good shout.I love the idea of a house smartphone.I've missed that boat.It's the worst.My eldest is 12.We caved into his peer pressure and got him a smartphone. And do you know what?
He's just gone into year eight and the headmaster of his school said, I'm not meant to tell you how to parent, but if I could ever say get an Apple AirTag and not a smartphone to track your child, that would be the one bit of advice I'd give.
And I wish we'd listened.So there you go.There you go. In the world of social media, what did you predict and what did you miss?Are you surprised that Snapchat never became a mainstream entertainment portal?
Are you surprised Pinterest didn't get bigger?What was your big prediction that came right and what was the thing that perhaps you should have seen coming?
I think, yeah, I think my prediction of LinkedIn's come true.
So I kind of thought when I came back from maternity leave the last time, I was like, I knew that LinkedIn was almost like having this resurgence of not just being this platform, this corporate platform, I was like, it is becoming more of a content platform.
It's not just about jobs and careers, even though obviously, that's the foundations of it.You know, this is a conversational place, you can have a community, you can build a personal brand.
So my prediction of like more people gravitating to the platform, more people producing content has all kind of come true.And also the fact that they're being more innovative with their features and things like that.And they listen as well.
I've seen some of the developers. have conversations and like ask people what they want.So I think we're going to continue to see that on LinkedIn and I'm very much here for that.
I think things that did surprise me is like, so in the pandemic and COVID, we had like Clubhouse, for example, that was like all the rage, right?And then like that kind of just dropped off.And then that, I guess because the need wasn't there, right?
So then our needs changed as we came out of the pandemic. But when you see, you know, it was so popular in that time.So the rise and fall of that happened very quickly.And I didn't expect that to necessarily like drop off like it did, but it did.
It dropped off of a cliff, essentially.
It completely did.That's a really good point.And I'd almost forgotten about Clubhouse. But you're right, more generally, the lack of a short-form audio app or platform, short-form audio has never really clicked, has it?Because Twitter have had a go.
You're right, Clubhouse came and went as quickly as possible.Yeah, it's funny.It's a really good observation. Let's go back to your book for one last question.Just for, it's Dear Social Media Manager, how many letters are in the book?46.And was there, you asked, you've obviously got 46 contributors.
Who were you amazed said yes, or what surprised you most from the letters?
As I said earlier, I don't think anything necessarily surprised me.And you know what, I was just amazed at not just one person said yes, but I was just amazed that everybody just got it.Everyone who said yes, like they got the vision.
And it was like, everyone could kind of see what I intended, which was so nice because I didn't know how it was going to come across when I approached people.
Even, you know, when I've got a relationship with people, asking people to do anything, you never know how it's going to be perceived.So I was just so pleased that it was well received.
And then also as a result, the book's been really well received and everybody who's picked it up has given such lovely feedback, which is absolutely incredible.
Brilliant.And then last question in this section, and it's a bit of a silly one, but I genuinely want your thoughts on this.You've spoken at loads of social media events all over the world.
What are the best events, and more broadly, what makes a great social media event?
So two of my absolute favorites have to be Social Day, which obviously I know you've been to and spoken at as well, which is what Lucy Hall puts together.That's amazing.
And next year is going to be a three-day Social Day festival, which is going to be amazing.So I recommend people look at that.And the International Social Media Summit as well, that's in Barcelona.Again, a fantastic event.
There's just so many different people that go to these events.So you get such a mixed range of experience, talks, Again, get that peer-to-peer feedback and community.
What makes a great event, I guess, is, again, having that mix of people that you wouldn't necessarily come across day-to-day because you might be working across different industries.
So it's really nice to have that shared knowledge because it can inspire you with different ideas.
It can also confirm things that you've believed in and kind of give you more gumption when you're going back into your company and saying, OK, well, it's not just me who thinks this, actually.
you know I've spoken to this person and this person and you know they're using it in this way so I think that shared knowledge and not just the people who are necessarily on stage but those kind of chats you have in between they are equally as valuable as the talks that you're going to listen to as well.
So, we're now down to the rocket fuel section of the conversation.Some practical takeaways and insights where our audience can walk away and use them and apply them in their daily lives.
Sandrine, tell me what you know about young audiences and what's important to young audiences.
Well, I know about young audiences.I mean, I guess it also depends how young are we talking.So whether we're talking private school age or secondary school.But I guess with young audiences is they are starting their consumption of social media.
And we're talking about that.So, you know, what they they don't necessarily have a purpose. for why they're using it, they have an interest of why they're using it.
So I think when we're thinking from a brand perspective, it's important to pique their curiosity, but also not try and bombard them, okay?
Because, you know, I remember growing up, we obviously used to see like the adverts on TV, but now social media is becoming that advert for kids as well.
So as well as getting them to see kind of what you want, but it's also I think about having conversational style content and not just being like ad, ad, ad.
Because the last thing you want is as a brand for that kid to go, I mean, you do want them to go, oh mom, like let me buy this or whatever.But you don't want it to feel like they're just pestering them.
all the time as parents because you're just like peppering, you know, brand content like here, here, here, like talk to them, like build a story, almost like you want to make friends with the kids, you want to make that community of these kids, of these teenagers.
But also remembering from a brand perspective that these kids can't set limits for themselves about how much they consume.So it's also being mindful of that as well.
You can't, you don't know how much time or if they're even gonna see your post or is it gonna be their parents?So you've kind of got two different audiences.You've got the parents and you've got the younger generation.
Yeah, yeah, we definitely, we actually create content to be shared by children with their parents when sometimes we're marketing, for example, a university course.
Sometimes we create content for the parents that they can share with their children and for the potential students that they can share with their parents, so you're exactly right.
What do you think has changed and what do you think will change next about the way audiences are behaving?
So I think what we've seen, as I mentioned earlier, is we've seen this rise of the authenticity.So people want more of that humanized content.They want more of the storytelling.
They want more of that why from brands, like that purpose, that community feeling.They don't just want to be sold to all the time.So I think that's really important.I think we're going to continue to get a consumer shift over the years.
And with the generation's rise, like we spoke earlier about my views and my kids' consumption, well,
as parents have these different views and they raise their children, the consumption of children, not the consumption of children, that's a very different thing, the consumption of social media for children, teens and young adults is going to be different when we look 10 years into the future than it is now.
So again, it's also future-proofing that, it's thinking about what is going to be next.I think there will be less use of social media for young people in the future than there is now.
So it's thinking how can your content make an impact in a shorter time frame when you might not have as many touch points as you do perhaps today.So again, how can you make that maximum impact in a short amount of time?
that's the sound bite for the trail by the way if we do that that's a fascinating insight yeah and i think you're quite right finally feel free to name and shame or not who does it badly and who does it brilliantly um so i
I won't mention any brands that do it badly, because one thing I think people forget, and I've seen a lot of actual brand bashing on LinkedIn recently, I don't know if you have too, but people forget that as social teams, as marketing teams, we all have different amounts of team members, we have different budgets, we have different parameters, brand guidelines, sign-offs,
So you could look at a company and go, it's got bad social media.Doesn't mean the social media manager is a bad social media manager.You just don't know what they're unable to do, what they can physically put out there.
Because there's so many kind of hurdles you've got to get through before you get to press and post.And that is different for everybody.So I think we've got to give people a bit of grace.
But in terms of who's doing it well, I was looking at some content the other day, and really random, but Furby, I think they're doing some fantastic fantastic content if we're talking about junior audience.
Because again, it's very colorful, very playful, but it also has some kind of that user-generated content, some kind of audience videos, that kind of thing.And I think that's nice.You've got a real mix.
So you're attracting to the parents, but you're also attracting to that younger audience.But they know their primary audience.They know their target audience.They also know their brand values.
but it's not heavy hitting, there's nothing too in-depth or crazy, they're just getting it right for their brand, they're not looking at anyone else, they're looking at their target audience and they're serving the content for them, which is fundamentally what we should all be doing.
Brilliant.That's a great example.And finally, and it could be because my questions have been rubbish and I've missed something out, or it could be something you want to underline from our conversation.
If there was one takeaway for everybody listening, what would that takeaway be?
So I kind of touched on it earlier, but I don't know if I said it exactly right, but social media is connecting with people at scale.
And I think fundamentally everything comes back to that, and that's what people need to remember, is you're connecting with people, you're connecting with individuals, you know, with the masses, you know, at scale.
And if you remember that, and that's one of the things you come back to when you're creating content, or, you know, looking at your social media strategy, you can't really go far wrong.
You know, you're connecting with people that has got to be the fundamentals of everything that you produce and everything you create for social media.
Brilliant, that's a great place to leave it on.Sandrina, if you want our listeners to get in touch with you, and you might not, where can they find you?What's the best way to get in touch?
The best way to find me is on LinkedIn.You can just search for my name, which is Sandrina Alday, and yeah, you'll find me over on LinkedIn.That's where I produce most of my content.
My DMs are open, so if anybody wants to chat, I'm pretty much an open book.
And the book's on Amazon, isn't it?If people want to do a social media manager, they can get it.
Yeah, it's on Amazon.It's in most countries, US, Canada, and a lot of European countries too.So yeah, it's not just in the UK.So you can get it on Amazon as a paid bag, or you can get it via Kindle as well.
Brilliant.Sandrine, thank you so much for being this week's guest on Rocketfuel.I really appreciate your time.
Oh, thank you so much for having me.It's been so much fun.
I could have spoken to Zandrina all day.I think that's probably quite clear from the conversation you've just heard.
I thought the platform-specific stuff that we got into was really interesting, and her belief in LinkedIn as the future and as to how it's taken over lots of her time from what X and Twitter used to consume in her media diet.
I think there's a certain lesson there for everybody listening.
I do get the book it's a fascinating read my letter is in there and if you have any feedback on the rocket fuel podcast look me up on ex formerly Twitter I don't tweet as much as I used to because it's
is a bit of a bin fire, as Zandrina was saying, but you can find me at James Erskine, E-R-S-K-I-N-E, or find Rocket, the people that brought this podcast to you.We are Rocket.Yeah, look out for us on socials.
Do share this podcast with anyone that you think would get anything from it, and we'll see you next week on Rocket Fuel. This is Rocket Audio.
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