The traditional approach to money, I think, is broken.We're broken by design.It's meant to be this way.The more they keep us in the position of financial illiteracy, really, the more money they make off of us.
Welcome to The Whole Damn Pie.Today, I'm speaking with Dennis Williams, the CEO of My Financial Therapist. Dennis' fresh take on personal finance and the role that money plays in our lives really got me thinking.
Our money habits often do come from much deeper issues.Dennis has spent his entire career as a financial advisor at many of the big-name wealth management firms.
But he realizes that they're not for everyone, and they can exclude a large portion of the population.Instead, he wants to democratize financial literacy.
We dig into what that really means, how his My Financial Therapist app is going to do that, and why we really need to examine the elusive idea of the American dream.You describe being a financial therapist as your calling.Yeah?How'd you get here?
Tell me about your journey.
Oh, how did I get here?I always knew I wanted to learn how to manipulate, in a good way, money. So I kind of started with my own journey and learning from family and friends, business owners, all that kind of stuff.
But I got into the world of personal finance from a corporate level.So I started with Merrill Lynch.Merrill Lynch is an environment which is very clear that they're catering toward a very small percentage of the population.
They want rich, wealthy people.
So of course, here I am 24, 25 representing, you know, Merrill Lynch, a young black guy trying to convince people who are the opposite shade of me to give me their money and trust that I'm gonna do better than either they could or all their other white friends or whoever, right?
So I got into the kind of financial therapy because the people who are in my circle, my friends, my family, my demographic, people that go to my church, they needed a different approach.
And the approach from Merrill Lynch was clearly to leave them out and let them kind of figure it out on their own.
This world is meant to kind of confuse people, give them too many options, call one thing four different names, force people to either have anxiety or confusion and stick their head in the sand and not do anything about it.
which for anyone who has money, whether you have a little or a lot, the more you neglect a goal or something that you need to accomplish with regard to money, that thing snowballs really, really quickly.
So if you can meet people where they are, not speak jargon, not confuse people, not try to scare people into making you think that you need me or you're going to fail financially, because that's also not the case.We overcomplicate things.
Coming from a financial therapy point of view, to me, just means connecting the mindset, your mindset around money.We have to uncover the things that you do that are productive in the sense of how you treat money as the tool it is.
It shouldn't be the thing that you identify.It shouldn't be part of your identity is the money.That shouldn't be part of your identity.It should just be a means to which you're able to accomplish the things that matter to you most.Okay.
You have to connect values.So yeah, financial therapy, to me, therapy and money, they need to be connected.Otherwise, I mean, how can you truly be successful?
I like it.Have you always been interested in this industry?You said you worked at Merrill Lynch.Was little Dennis like, I am going to become a financial therapist?
Okay.Did you grow up having money?
No.Okay.Heck no.I mean, we did not grow up poor.My parents worked their butts off to provide and give us all the opportunities they possibly could.Were we rich?No.
But we had some really great people around us that were on the verge of becoming rich because of their hard work, really.Did I grow up with money?We grew up with enough money. We grew up going to great schools and being around good people.
Did he grow up wanting to wear a bow tie?Little Dennis was always into fashion, always into like, you know, self-expression and really not wanting to dress or look or be like anyone else.Like I really wanted to be distinctly who I was.
And that definitely has poured over into like going into the corporate world that is Bank of America, Merrill Lynch.And now I work for Wells Fargo.And now I'm trying to obviously work on my financial therapist as well.
But yeah, no, I just I just wanted to go against the grain.
For Dennis, going against the grain applies to many areas of life, including his desire to help everyone, not just the rich, achieve financial success.
I think that the traditional approach to money, I think, is is broken. You know, you've seen different statistics, like 50% of the population lives paycheck to paycheck.
Like, what is it?65, 70% couldn't afford a thousand dollar emergency.75% or more have no financial plan whatsoever.I can literally throw out dozens of statistics that highlight that we're broken.And it's almost like we're broken by design.
It's not almost, it is.We're broken by design.It's meant to be this way.The more they keep us in the position of financial illiteracy, really, the more money they make off of us.It's not complicated.
We talk about this a lot in the work that I do is that a lot of the systems that we exist in and that we navigate just by living and breathing here are complicated by design, right?You could say that about healthcare.
You could say it about education, higher education, right?Like the law, That fear and distrust that we're talking about in our flawed system, that's real.
Our unnecessarily complicated financial system actually makes it harder for Dennis to do his job and creates more barriers to helping people.
One of the things that I noticed very quickly, if I introduced myself as a financial advisor and I would do it, I would almost like AB test this. I would introduce myself as a financial advisor.
And it's almost as if a windy, cold draft blew through the entire room.Something changed the mood like an instant.It's like, oh, he's a financial advisor.He's going to either try to sell me something.
He's going to talk about what he does for a living.He doesn't really care what I do.He cares about telling me what the markets are doing or why he needs me.It's like the conversation turns on a dime.
I started introducing myself as a financial therapist.And I'm telling you, I've done this thousands of times over the last 10 years.Not one time. Have I ever got that whole mood shift?I've always gotten, oh, I've never heard of that.
Tell me what that means.I didn't know that exists.Like literally people wanted to know more about it versus trying to get away from it as quickly as they want to get away from the financial advisor.So you start to realize why is that?
Well, financial advisors are looked at as someone who is a salesperson.But it's like, if you're a financial advisor, why would you ever be seen as a salesperson?
Like, you should be seen as somebody giving sound, thoughtful, holistic financial advice, not like, oh, I have this product or service in my mind because... Because I'm gonna get some commission off the back end.Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's a whole nother layer of things that contribute to the system being broken.
Why would you ever incentivize someone to do one or two things when there's thousands of ways that you can accomplish a goal if you're genuinely wanting to help the person on the other side of the desk?
I had to take a step back because I wasn't being as successful as I wanted to be in the job.
I'm not surprised that just selling people stuff to make money wasn't really working for Dennis.That's just not who he is.
It was frustrating because I'm like, wait a minute, I really actually do care about people.I really don't want to sell people like just stuff.I really like want to do this job the right way.Like, why is this so hard for me?
And it's because I was doing it the way they wanted me to do it.
So I had to like break that whole thing down. I talked to other people who I respected their opinions and kind of the way that they conducted themselves who were above me.And I kind of just put this kind of process together.
And it's funny, it really was born out of a self-preservation almost.It's like, if I don't figure this out quick, I'm not gonna be, I'm gonna be like the 45 other guys who don't do this job anymore.
So I started basically attaching time, values, goals to money and creating very specific targets for you.I would educate people on the things that fit best within those time periods of your life.
Once we identified the targets, we already knew, okay, I have X amount of dollars within this time period of my life.
And here are the things that I think as the client, I'm going to dedicate those dollars to because Dennis has educated me on why this account makes sense over this one or, you know, what all these different implications.
So at the end of that process, I no longer had to sell.It was now almost as if you were, this goes here, this goes here.I want to put this here because, you know, you, you, you helped me understand why. So all these things make sense for this reason.
So I was leading the clients to water, not forcing them to drink.They drink on their own, you know?
Yeah.So instead of putting products in front of them that they could select from to purchase, you're educating and empowering them to come to a point where they feel like they can make the decision because they have the right information.
Yeah, that's it.I mean, when we say it like that, it seems like, duh, that's so easy, but the world doesn't work like that.
No.No, it does not.The world has ulterior motives.
I know that one of your tenets is that you really want to democratize financial literacy.What does that mean?
Democratizing financial literacy means that we no longer intentionally try to overcomplicate people's lives by introducing things or concepts or words that don't help you become better from a financial perspective.It has to start at an earlier age.
It has to start in schools.If I were to ask you, what are the top five things in your life? And you were to tell me, I would be surprised if money wasn't somewhere on that list.
And I've, again, you know, I've asked that question a thousand times, thousands.So it's like, how the heck are we, are we expected to go through this thing called life, which really moves fast if we let it get away from us.
And then we're losing track of all those goals, which are all attached to money.It's like, that is to me, that is like, That's almost, what is the word?Neglect?What is a word worse than neglect?That's like, that is just... I don't know, terrorism?
What is it?Financial terrorism.It's the other app.
Yeah.We got to democratize this thing.People need to know how to improve their lives with this thing that touches every part of their lives in a way that is unique to them.If we don't do that, it's almost like, to me, it's neglect from the top down.
Like, what are we talking about?
Tell me about My Financial Therapist, which is your baby.It's an app, which I think is brilliant.
The best way to imagine the app is if you were sitting in my desk, in my office, and we were going through an initial conversation about your financial life, the things you cared about, and how you wanted to support them with this
funny tool called money.We want to be that person on the other side of the screen, their financial therapist that's in their hand anytime they need.I kind of describe it as like a safe place.
It's kind of like just being very thoughtful with how we approach money, how we kind of, like I said, the democratizing of financial literacy is anyone at any moment should be able to pick up a tool to make their lives better.
And then within this context, it's specifically about money.
So understanding yourself within the context of money, really breaking it down, I kind of describe people as if you were, if you were investing your money, and you had to, you know, you had a couple of companies to choose from, would you invest your money in the in the in Microsoft if they had no financial plan that guided their future decisions with how they're going to invest your money?
I'm pretty sure people will be like, no,
The answer to that is no.
I'm going to go ahead and pass on that.
So why would anyone invest in you or yet you have a positive financial outlook if you don't have a plan that guides your decisions with money in the future?
So my financial therapist app, is it available to me now or is it in development?
It's in development.We've created the first prototype of it.We're going through a few challenges with tech and getting it actually created the way that the vision is designed. to be interacted with.So we're getting close.
We actually are bringing on a new technical partner, developer, teammate to help us move forward faster.So things are moving along.
So what kind of help are you looking for to get this thing over the line?How are we going to see financial therapists in our lives?You're doing a program with a local credit union.
Yeah, yeah, Bowling Employee Credit Union.We're in an incubator with them.
So we're trying to utilize their expertise to help us progress, to help us build it the right way, to help us test it with their employees and then larger groups of employees and maybe with members.
I mean, they are the fourth largest credit union in the nation.They are massive.
Yeah, yeah, they're massive.
Okay.I mean, I'm a member, but I didn't know that.Okay, so maybe I'll see it on my account or something.
that in a perfect world yeah that'd be that would be ideal.
I mean they've introduced us as you can imagine being the as big as they are they've kind of sprouted seeds of of former BSU employees all around the northwest as far as former employees have gone on to lead other credit unions.
So it's been a really nice opportunity to kind of just get to know other people like for instance right after this meeting I'm headed down to Olympia to meet with
a group called Circle, which they essentially pool money together to test and get behind new fintech, new technology ideas.
So we're going to go meet with them and just see what we can learn and how we can be accessible and make sure that we can actually get things off the ground quickly. How can we help you?
I just want people ready to download this thing and test it and give me feedback.People can go check out myfinancialtherapist.com.You can sign up for our waiting list.
It's going to help in terms of when we go and raise money from venture capitalists and angel investors.If we have a list of 10,000 people saying that they want this thing to be real, it'll be so much easier to grow.
That's awesome.And once it's available, when I download the app, what is it going to do for me?Does it help me make a budget?Does it help me plan my future?All of the above?Does it? help me heal my financial trauma of scarcity?Like, what does it do?
Oh my gosh.All of the above.
So if you think about the context of a therapist, you know, you come into an environment where someone is helping you actively work through something that's not working the way you want, maybe. Okay.
So, you know, there's a journal feature within the app that tracks everything you do, tracks progress to goals, introduce insights within the journal that helps based on what we know about you, kind of dig into like, okay, we noticed this is kind of a sticking point or something that we need to help you overcome.
or support.Like maybe you're doing something great.It's not, we don't have to always focus on negative things, but maybe we need to focus on either good things that you're doing or uncover some of the negative things we need to break through.
But if I were to say, what are you going to leave with?We help people create dynamic financial plans in a therapeutic environment. And if you were to break down the word dynamic, because some people are like, what does dynamic mean?
It's timely and relevant.If I make a plan for you today, I know it's going to be wrong tomorrow because you're not the same person you were yesterday.
If your plan is dynamic, if it's linked to accounts that we can see and that are feeding into who you are and all the targets and all the things you're trying to accomplish, that plan should change as you change.
You get a new house, you have another kid, you go back to school, your kid goes to school.You either need to have something like this application that can be dynamic in the moment, or you need to be meeting with me every week.
And who's going to do that?
Right.I love the part about having a dynamic plan because we know that life is always changing.When you align your money with your goals, you're kind of forced to take a hard look at what you say versus what you do.
And that's not going to look the same for everyone.We have to ask these questions of ourselves.What messages have we internalized that we don't even realize?Dennis invites us to break up with the American dream.
I want everybody to be successful, but I'm a skeptic. especially with all the stuff that we've been force-fed over the years.In The American Dream, it's funny, I had an epiphany like, I don't know, like two years ago.
Part of this process of doing this company, of starting up My Financial Therapist, you kind of look at the things that are meant to keep us in a system that benefits off of us, not necessarily us benefiting as a result of being a part of it.
Yeah, it doesn't serve us, but we feed it.It doesn't serve us.
It doesn't serve us.And then you start to look back on, okay, when did this all start?Like this whole American dream.I remember literally like, when American dream, like what was the history of the American dream?
And it was like, it was like a term coined from some author, like in the 1930s, like in the kind of, you know, post Great Depression, World War II, that whole era.I get it.
You want to give people something to aspire to, something to dream towards, something to anchor yourself to. But what it became more than anything was a marketing tool.It became this, just like an anchor keeps you in place.
That's literally what it became.It's almost like, okay, the American dream is to have this, you know, the house with the picket fence, 2.5, whatever point, whatever kids, the dog, the wife that stays at home, does not work.
A car, because this is the booming car industry time.Yeah, we got to have cars. if you're American, you gotta have a car.Right.American made car.A fossil fuel burning car.
So all these things that were part of the, what is that?The, what is the word I'm looking for?The mystique or whatever you want to call that is the American dream that everyone really bought into.
All it did was serve as a way to get you in debt, make you a cog in the wheel, make it so that you could not stop working.You worked your 30, 40, whatever,
however, decades of work for a particular company so that you could maybe one day, I don't know, chill on a porch and kick back and whatever.But that's not really how it worked.All it did was it limited your flexibility.
It made you stuck in a cycle that you maybe didn't want to even be a part of or participate in.But it's too late now.You're anchored to that little plot of land that is your American dream.And it became more of a I don't want to.
What's the opposite of a dream?I don't want to say what I'm going to say.Nightmare?
And maybe it did, though, because when you think about like dream and nightmare, because like if we were to go back to our grandparents, maybe doing that nowadays would be great because we make enough money.We could afford like your salary.
Your house might be two and a half times your salary.You can afford to buy a home, not have to pay for for 30, 40 whatever years.And we can't do that anymore.Things are way more expensive.The cost of living has not kept up.The pay hasn't kept up.
We're in more debt than ever.
Yeah, it's disillusioned us, I think, you know, we're still tied to this concept that maybe isn't achievable.I also think, like, if you look through history, like,
It's a term that can also mean like you're entitled to this American dream because you are an American, right?
And if you're not experiencing it the way that it's packaged and sold to you, then it's probably someone's fault because you are entitled to that.I can see it in the financial aspect, but I think there's also many social ties to it.
that create division instead of harmony.And I think harmony should be part of the American dream.
Yeah, it's funny, like, like you saying that reminds me of things like, like sayings, like keeping up with the Joneses.Right.Or the fact that I feel a need to buy X, Y and Z thing because so and so, you know, I want to keep up appearances.
I'm a financial advisor.I should, I should be driving like a a Bentley or I don't know what a financial advisor is.
I guess Bentley.Bentley is the official brand of financial advisors everywhere.
Do you guys need sponsors?
Bentley.Bentley.We'll take you.Yeah.We'll take it.
That'd be awesome. I drive a, what do I drive?A 2000, is it eight?I drive a paid off 2008 old school Mercedes and I want an older school BMW to replace my old school.I just like old school stuff. Anyway, I like not being stuck in that rat race.
For instance, I guess the last thing I'll say about American Dream, the opposite of that is using your money to buy back the most precious thing we all have, which is time.
So if we can pay ourselves first, if we can not overextend ourselves, if we can use the tool of money to actually buy back the ability to do whatever the heck we want when we want, I think people will be a lot happier.
I agree.I totally agree.I totally agree.This is very interesting. I grew up not having a lot of money at all.
I grew up with a mom who was really hardworking, you know, single mom, but your labor, your labor can only take you so far, especially a woman in a certain point in time.And so I grew up just, if you don't want things, then you're fine.
If you can live a life where you don't want anything, really, or you don't need much, then you're fine. Right?That is a really hard mindset to get out of because there's a lot of judgment. wrapped in it.
So I think money is even more complicated because it's not just a product.It's not just a thing.It is tied in our identity.It's tied to our values and how we see ourselves and each other and especially compare ourselves to each other.
So as I have gotten older and older, And, you know, now.And wiser.And wiser.And, you know, own a company, you look at money so differently.
Like trying to financial plan for a business is way different than you would do it for yourself as a human being, you know, in your personal life. And also, fun fact, what I've learned is that this country's tax code is built around business.
So if you want to learn anything about, you know, building wealth or saving money, it's start a business.
That's the next episode.That's the next episode of Money Therapy with Dennis.Yeah, I love that.I'm learning.
I mean, I have literally... I think if my financial therapist app was around when I was younger, it could have really helped me kind of deal with these things.
Honestly, when I started being more successful in business, I had to hire an actual psychology therapist who specialized in money to help me break through barriers because I had a lot of judgments on myself of
feeling a certain way with success, feeling a certain way with obligations to others.And for the record, I'm not swimming in it.But when you come from nothing, swimming in it feels a little bit different right now.I'm not Oprah, OK?Not yet.
We're not Oprah over here.I didn't call her, by the way.Right.But the minute where I'm starting to think about, oh, I should probably donate to some charities, right?Like, and what are those charities gonna be?
But you know, 10 years ago, there was no money to donate to charities, right?But now there's this question.And so it's been really interesting journey for me.I think this tool is gonna be really helpful.I really mean it.
My financial therapist would have been so valuable to me.We need that safe space to look at our relationship with money, unpack our habits and all the emotions behind them.
I do have one more question for you before we go, which is a question I ask everybody, because this whole show is about designing life the way you want it.So what is your whole dang pie?
Let me think.What is my whole dang... My mom might listen to this, so I can't cuss.What is my whole dang pie?Yes.My whole dang pie or my world I want to live in is a world where we are, we're empowered to live life on our own terms.
Dennis is without a doubt living life on his own terms, and his professional work is all about helping others do that very same thing.I really admire Dennis's drive to improve financial literacy and help everyone examine their relationship to money.
This conversation reminded me that we can all make change from within a broken system.
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