Hi, I'm Amy Donaldson.And I'm Cheryl Worsley.And this is Talking Cold.
Today, we're going to explore one of the more unsettling aspects of Cold Season 3, in my opinion, obscene phone calls.
Carrie Hartman, one of the suspects in Sheree Warren's disappearance, was investigated for making these lewd phone calls to random women that he found in the phone book.But before we start, let's play a clip.
— I was getting a phone call, probably around midnight.
— She lifted the receiver to her ear and said a tentative, hello?The word tinged by her distinct German accent.
voice on the phone said that he wanted to talk to me.
The voice belonged to a man.He introduced himself and said he was conducting a survey.He wanted to ask her a few questions, like what kind of lingerie do you wear?And are you as good in bed as everyone says?
I said, who are you?What's going on?What do you want?And he hung up.
Cheryl, I was curious.Have you ever had an obscene phone call?
I did have a couple as a kid.I was 11 or 12, and it was a heavy breather.And at 11 and 12, I didn't even realize what was going on.And it happened a couple of times, but that was it.
They just breathed and then hung up?
They were just heavy breathing, and I'm like, hello?
One of the things that stuck out to me when I was listening to Cold Season 3 was that my mom had a phone call, and she had a few obscene calls, but she had an obscene phone call where the person actually asked her about her, you know, it was a lingerie-type survey.
Wow.Underwear survey, right, she said, is what she called it.It was this underwear survey where they asked her a bunch of questions, which she answered until she started thinking in her own head, like, this is really personal and really weird.
Like, why would a... Did it turn sexual? Yeah.I mean, she felt it was it turned inappropriate.Right.And then another time we had I remember my sister answered the phone when someone called and said, hey, is your mom there?
What color is your mom's hair?And my sister, who was like six at the time, was answering the questions and asked about her pubic hair.
And then my mom sees my six year old sister on the phone for an extended period of time and said, who are you talking to?And she said, oh, a man.He wants to know about your hair."And my mom, you know, took the phone and hung up.
And yeah, we, I remember having a discussion, but like at no point didn't our family discussions, did anyone say like, this is a crime or this is like, it was unsettling.And I'm sure it was more so to my mom.
Did your parents talk to you about if somebody calls like this, this is what you should do?
Yeah.My dad said, like, if you don't know the person you hang up.I mean, they basically said, don't answer the phone.But we were kids.We were going to answer the phone.
Of course you do.Because friends are calling It's the only way they can get a hold of you.
We were also told not to answer the door.We also did that.And usually, I mean, this is back in the day when there were a million salesmen that came, you know, selling all kinds of things.So my parents were like, please don't answer the door.
OK, but you know, when you're a kid, that's like the most exciting thing you get to do.So I think there was some of that.But like at no point did I think, or did my family think, and we've talked about it.
This is kind of family lore now, because my dad kind of made fun of my mom as the months went on and years went on. for answering the questions.
Let me just ask this, Amy.Did you live in Utah at the time of these phone calls?Yes.
Sandy, Utah.That's why when I'm listening to season three, I was like, wait, oh my gosh, I wonder if These were a common thing if they happened a lot because this happened to my mom.I mean have you reflected on your experience.
Do you think the call was directed at you.I didn't stay on the phone that long but I you know probably five seconds.But so I don't know if it was intended for me but.But you didn't you don't remember feeling afraid or.
I was confused because I was too young to understand what the implications were.I mean, obviously, that's a sex-related call, and at 11 and 12, I'm barely grasping sex.So no, it didn't frighten me.It just confused me.I'm like, what?Are you OK?
Do you need CPR?I'm not understanding what's going on.So yeah, it didn't occur to me that it was frightening enough to even tell my parents about.
Well, nowadays, it's not like anybody's using the phone book to find people anymore.Technology, cell phones, social media, it's all changed everything.And so probably the way we're harassed has evolved.
And we want to talk about how technology has changed the way people commit these crimes, the way they harass one another, I guess, and how and if they can escalate into something more dangerous.
So to do that, we've invited prosecutor Anna Rossi Anderson to chat with us.She's the division director for the Salt Lake County Special Victims Unit.
So how has technology helped, hindered, or changed sexual assault behaviors?
So the lewd phone calls, we don't see things like that between strangers very often.
Generally, when we have a case where usually a female victim is receiving lewd phone calls from someone, it's an ex or someone that she's had a falling out with, a relationship with of some sort.
Every once in a while, we'll get people that send unsolicited nudes or something like that, unsolicited graphic photos to someone.On the lewd phone call side of things, we have, you know, misdemeanor charges that can be filed for that.
It's, you know, electronic communication harassment.
And like I said, that usually occurs more in a domestic violence setting where there's a protective order and someone just can't deal with the fact that there's a protective order and starts making harassing phone calls, whether they're sexual or violent or whatever in nature.
And that's usually how that comes about.
I don't think that I've ever had a case in my entire career where someone is just calling, like a victim calls the police and says, this stranger is making lewd phone calls to me and I don't know what to do about it.
And that may speak more about the technology because I think it does.
Because our suspect in this case was actually going through the phone book and just picking names, female names, and making calls.
And now they do it on the internet. So as far as perpetrators go, it's just so much easier to do to commit these kind of non-contact sexual offenses, right?Voyeurism, lewdness.
And when we go back to the unsolicited nudes, technically, that could probably be a lewdness charge, right?
Do those mostly come from someone connected to the person, a former love interest or whatever?Or is can those be from a stranger?
Oftentimes from a former intimate partner, but a lot of times now on dating apps, it just happens through a dating app.You know, you start communicating with someone and it escalates very quickly, unsolicited.
I mean, that's happened to friends of mine.And that's a crime.Yes. It is technically, right?It is technically if you tell them not to do it, like if you tell them to stop and they continue to do it.
If it's one unsolicited nude and you say to them, hey, I'm not into this, and it stops, that's probably not going to be charged as a crime.And I don't even know if it would fall under one. That is very interesting.
Yeah, if you did that in real life, if you were at a store and you just flashed everybody.And you just flashed someone.
That's a crime.Right.But if you just randomly send your body parts to random people, that's maybe not.If they say, I don't want it, and you stop.
Yeah.And again, you have to look at the context of the conversation leading up to that point and all those things.Sorry, this is my brain working as to how we can charge that.
Anyway, so for perpetrators of sexual offenses, the access that they have to people through dating apps and social media and internet chat rooms and all of those things is just, I mean, their world of victims has exponentially grown.
So it is so much easier for people to perpetrate on children especially who have access to the Internet and then females.And we just we see it all the time.
I mean we joke that we're all online all the time.But that's how there's just a million ways.It's exhausting trying to figure out how could you keep your kids safe.Yeah.Basically live in the woods with no technology.Right.
Well, and we have these task forces of officers who will go into these apps and chat rooms and pose as young kids and arrange meetups with adults, right?
And we have a lot of people who criticize that procedure and that process and say that they're entrapping people and they're trying to trick people into doing things that they normally wouldn't.
But those cases don't get charged unless and until that adult is arriving at a site with, you know, a glove box full of condoms and duct tape.
We have proof that that person's intent was to commit a sexual offense with a child, against a child, or against a female, or whatever the case may be.So it makes it that much easier for people just to make those arrangements.
And for the number of people that are actually intercepted in those communications and in those situations, I am terrified to think of the number that are not.
It's way higher, I'm sure.
And that are actually meeting up with people and committing these offenses.
So you mentioned investigators going on and impersonating children to try to catch these folks.There's technology that is unrelated to trying to catch them in the act.You know, now they can go into someone's phone and see the pictures that they have.
It has, and that's utilized all the time in our criminal cases.The same things that make it so easy for perpetrators to offend make it just as easy for us to prove it, right?
So we have perpetrators, and especially when we're talking about voyeurism charges or something where they're surreptitiously recording people in bathrooms or things like that, it's very easy for them to hide those things.
It's also very easy for them to be found and for us to then use that evidence at trial. We don't have to rely anymore just on someone's recounting of events.
We have a lot of physical proof in the form of video and audio and chat messages and things like that.
We can download phones with... We can go back months and months and months worth of messages and deleted photos and deleted messages and things that a perpetrator thinks they scrubbed will not be scrubbed and our investigators will find it.
So, those techniques and those things that we, that do allow us to bring that evidence to the table have been invaluable in these prosecutions.
LESLIE KENDRICK Your experience, do prosecutors generally take those kinds of cases, if it's like an internet stalking case or whatever, pretty seriously?Or do you, or do they still kind of get this like, well, but it's non-physical?
Oh, no.Again, it's a case-by-case basis, right?But if we have someone, especially someone whose behavior seems to be escalating to a stalking-level offense or something like that, they're taken very seriously.
It requires a fair amount of subjectivity, which can be a little bit tricky depending on, you know, who's sitting in the chair and screening the cases. We, as prosecutors, have a duty to look at those things closely.
And our number one issue is always public safety.It is always the safety of the community and the safety of victims.
And if there is a case where someone appears to be a danger to someone, we have to take that seriously, even if it's one message, you know, from one person, one time.
But the victim in that case tells us a whole bunch of other things that have happened in the past that she's never reported. So we have to look at that in that case as a whole, not just this one incident that's being presented to us for screening.
Have you personally prosecuted some of these unsolicited nudes or the lewdness?
Yep.Yeah.A lot of them.We get a ton of lewdness cases.I think that every prosecutor's office in America probably gets a lot of lewdness cases. And we do have a lot of repeat offenders.
That's a behavior that tends to repeat, I think, a little bit more often than some others.Just the public indecency type stuff, right?The flashers and the people that are, you know, showing their genitalia at Walmart or whatever the case may be.
It's actually like sort of horrifying.
We have tons of these cases.We do.Yeah, we do.
No, I mean, is there a point at which you say, OK, this is not, we've got to take this one more seriously?Yeah.
And the law actually provides for that, right?So after a certain number of lewdness convictions, you can be charged with an enhanced level of offense.The statutes themselves provide for ways to view it more seriously as it continues to occur.
What have we learned about these kinds of behaviors in the last 30 years?I mean, maybe making the phone calls or breathing heavy isn't the most dangerous behavior, but what have we learned about when things escalate, how things escalate?
Right.So I think that we've probably learned a lot. Okay, so we have a resource, I mean a resource that's available to everyone, called the DSM, which is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
And there have been various versions of this put out over the past decades.And apparently the DSM-3, which was published in 1980, was the first time the DSM addressed paraphilia, which is any sort of like perceived sexual deviance, right?
Anything that quote-unquote, normal people think is strange, was essentially listed as paraphilia.In 2013, the DSM-5 changed that kind of subset of disorders to paraphilic disorder.
So the disorder part is now what has changed it from just, you know, having sexually deviant thoughts to actually acting on those sexually deviant thoughts to the point that they kind of interfere with your day-to-day life.
Can you give me an example of what would be deviant behavior?
So if you have a person who is sexually aroused by watching someone undress in their home, they're outside the window and secretly watching them undress, and that's sexually arousing, that would generally be considered a deviant behavior, a paraphilia.
But a paraphilic disorder for voyeurism, so voyeuristic disorder, entails more than that.It entails it, you know, being, for lack of a better term, an obsession, right?Something that that person has to do, an urge that they cannot control.
Or it gets to the point that it involves a victim, right?Like where it's a contact offense or their behavior is escalating or something like that.Then it becomes a disorder.
So and I think I'm having a problem telling the difference between what what changed between the 80s and 2013 I don't know.
You mean what changed in the world?
Why don't what changed?What did they change in the book?
they changed the the the sort of the definition versus interest versus acting out and Interest.Yeah.Interest versus acting out or interest versus like sickness.
Like not just like I think it's I think it's sexually arousing if I see my neighbor changing in her window and I'm just going to watch her because it arouses me sexually versus I am going to seek out that neighbor every day because I know she gets out of the shower at 10 a.m.
and I'm going to watch her every morning.
But isn't it invasive either way?One hundred percent.
One is like, no, but I also think though that they've learned more about what kinds of behaviors are, you know, just sort of like foot fetish versus watching, going into people's, trespassing into someone's property and watching them.
And I'm thinking of cold season one.
Well, and it seems to be recognizing that not all sexually deviant acts are criminal and that in order to rise to that level and once we get there, we need to understand whether there is a disorder or whether there is a mental illness or whether there is something that can be treated with forms of treatment for those offenses.
It feels like the criminality element would include whether or not the sex offender or the person doing whatever, foot fetish or whatever, is forcing that on somebody else in an unwanted way.
Oh yeah, I think that if there's ever an unconsenting party or a non-consenting party, then there's a criminal offense.
Right.So if a neighbor happens to see neighbor undressing at her bedroom window and decides to watch, that to me is an offense unless the neighbor is OK with that, right?
Yeah, and I think that there is, in my mind as a prosecutor, thinking about all the context around that.
If you're in an apartment complex and you know as the female neighbor that everyone can see into your windows because you all face each other and you leave your bedroom window open while you're changing at night every single night, you probably have to expect that someone is going to see you changing.
It doesn't make it OK for someone to watch. it makes it maybe deviant.
But if a person, if then male neighbor is walking by his window and happens to glance over and see female neighbor naked in her window and then glances at her watches maybe for a few seconds and then goes into his room and masturbates, is that a crime?
Probably not.So there's all of there's a spectrum, right?
Well, you have exhibition on the one hand. So could be that.You mentioned treatment for sex offenders.So tell us what sex offender treatment looks like.
So I think that most of sex offender treatment involves psychotherapy, cognitive behavioral therapy and whatnot.Some offenders can be treated with antidepressants, with SSRIs.
And I think in some extreme cases, they're still being treated with drugs that will lower testosterone levels and reduce sexual urges and things like that.
But the majority of the treatment that we hear about and that the offenders that are sentenced on our cases participate in is group therapy and mental health treatment in that regard.They'll also do one-on-one counseling.
But some of the problems that we've seen lately and that we've been trying to address on, again, on a case-by-case basis is that if we have an offender whose cognitive abilities don't allow them to meaningfully participate in that kind of treatment,
We've been trying to kind of craft new arrangements for them.Our defense bar has been wonderful in making this happen.
If they have an offender who they say, you know, they're not going to be able to do this group therapy, they're not going to be able to successfully complete it because of issue A, B, or C, they will reach out to a therapist, they will reach out to the jail or the prison and us and make sure that that person has a treatment regimen set up that is going to be effective for them as an individual.
Which, again, at the end of the day is all that we can ask for.
So do you see treatment as, for someone who wants it, as a place of hope?
Oh yes, yeah.I think that if we didn't see treatment as a place of hope, our jobs would be hopeless. So we need to trust that that treatment does what it's supposed to most of the time.
When someone is convicted or is found guilty of a sex offense, they generally get a psychosexual evaluation that looks into all of these different kinds of things.
There's lots of different measurements and different testing that they do, both physical and cognitive and everything.And those evaluators will kind of put together like a treatment program for that person.
And that can vary based on the nature of the offense, the level of the offense, the time that the person has been offending, all of those things.
But our hope is always that a treatment regimen is laid out for an individual that will result in them not offending again.Does it always work?Of course not.It does not always work.But we have to have that hope.
If you've been prosecuting somebody for one of these lower level offenses, do you think, I mean, is it your experience that it's helpful?Like it does, it does, you do have more success if you catch it early.
I mean, there's this idea that you're getting treatment earlier in the process, right?If you are, if it is an evolutionary process, does that, is that true?Or is that just something we sort of all sort of see on TV or hope is true?
Oh, no, I think that that's true.I think that it's not only generally accepted, but also the data shows that early intervention is key for almost every kind of criminal offense.
Again, we're going to have people who are outliers who just have a very serious illness that we cannot fix with any amount of treatment or any amount of intervention.
But for your average individual, early intervention, if you have a young person who is caught looking at his neighbor in her window one night and he is made aware very early on that that is not okay, that there are consequences for it, and that there is treatment available if he needs it, those are the cases we hope to get, the ones that we can work that early intervention on.
In the couple of years that I was out of the prosecution world, I was a Justice Court judge down in South Salt Lake.
It was really rewarding to be able to deal with people when they are having their first contacts with the criminal justice system and have that hope that what we're doing there will prevent them from going any further.
And that's the same hope that we have even at the district court level with offenders who are committing more serious offenses.If it's their first one and we can deal with it right away and not see them again, that's the goal.
Putting somebody in jail for 30 days for peeping on someone in their window doesn't make our community safer for any more than 30 days. We need to ensure that our system is set up to help people succeed and move past whatever issues they may have.
Everybody wants our community to be safe.Defense attorneys, prosecutors, judges, citizens, we all want that.And these tools that we have are set up to do that.
How do you talk about these issues and really be honest about them and educate everyone without making people more afraid? Because it's sometimes it seems like not involved in the system.Yeah, I think so.
I think once you start talking about if you started to tell us about what came across your desk yesterday, we would all feel less safe.We would all be like, oh, my gosh, that's happening.I didn't know that.Right.
Like covering crime for me made me afraid in a way that I had not been previously.And it's the reason I quit covering crime, because I thought I'm skewing my world.I'm making myself think everyone is a bad person.
waiting to do something bad to me and my kid, right?So how do you have these conversations that are really honest and helpful to all of us, they're educational, but that don't alarm and raise fear?
Maybe parents don't know that someone has access to their kid in a chat room, and maybe they should know that, but obviously that's gonna make them more afraid at the same time.How do we balance that?
I think we just need to ask people to let us carry that burden for them. Because that is, that's how our minds work as prosecutors with, you know, the secondary trauma and the things that affect us as a result of the things that we see every day.
I honestly don't know what to say aside from that's our every day.It's not everyone else's every day.
When I was in misdemeanor court in the beginning of my career, I once thought to myself, there are so many people coming into this courtroom every day.I mean, hundreds of people in my courtroom when I was back in the Chicago area every day.
And I was like, I bet if I worked out the numbers that more than half of the people in this county have been involved in the criminal justice system.I really thought that it was going to be half the people in the county.
And so I sat down and started running names and pulling numbers, and it was like 3%.It's just not as many people as we think it is.
And we do read, there are a lot of stories on the news about really terrible things that happen, but it's such a small percentage of the population that are committing criminal offenses at all, let alone very violent, serious ones.
It's a constant battle and we have to remind ourselves of it every day that most people are good.It's just something that is harder to believe, like as you said, as you work in the criminal justice world for long enough.
But it's such a small percentage of people that come through this system as offenders.And you just need a reminder, I guess, from somebody every once in a while.
Thanks for joining us today. Coming up, we talk with former FBI profiler and the host of Killer Psyche podcast, Candace DeLong.
If you've listened to COLD season three, you know Cherie Warren's story raises issues surrounding both domestic violence and sexual assault, which were all present in season one and season two of COLD.
Joining us today to dive into it all is retired FBI profiler and host of Killer Psyche podcast, Candice DeLong.Candice, thank you so much for joining us.You're welcome.And thank you for having me.So, Candice, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Well, going way back, I started out my professional life as a nurse, a psychiatric nurse. But I did that for 10 years, great deal of the time in maximum security.And that's where I first began interacting with people that had committed crimes.
Some people on the psych unit, not all people by any means.And then I was recruited by the FBI.I was an agent for 20 years, became an FBI profiler in my fourth year, and retired, and then found myself in the true crime entertainment world.
Candace, we want to start by talking about how some crimes escalate.And to do that, let's play a clip from the show.
Heidi had shown Carrie mercy after his arrest in the canyon.She had just wanted him to get some help.But that hadn't happened.He was probably just a sick puppy.
Zimmerman was aware of Carey's connection to Cherie Warren, so he called Roy City Police Detective Jack Bell.
They began to look at the whole arc of Carey's behavior and saw a clear escalation from that encounter with Heidi in 1971 to where they then stood 15 years later.
Everything escalates.Yeah.You're right.
Some of the behaviors that one of the suspects in Sheree Warren's case was exhibiting were things like making lewd phone calls that turned into lingerie surveys that went to an obscene place.
In your experience, do things like lewd calls and peeping into windows, which he also did, tend to escalate?
The FBI has done a lot of research on this.In my day, they were called obscene phone calls.And by the way, I got my first obscene phone call when I was 14.I answered the phone.I had a phone in my bedroom.He said something.I didn't understand it.
And I said, can you wait a minute while I turn down my stereo?And he said it again.Whoops, I hung up the phone.
Of course, decades after that happened, I'm at the FBI Academy and I'm being trained by the founders of the FBI criminal personality profiling program, Robert Ressler, John Douglas, and they actually
did research and the first landmark study of serial killers in the United States was done by them.It's now represented on the Netflix show Mindhunter.
And one of the things they asked them was, before you began killing, were you involved in any kind of lesser sex crime, such as obscene phone calls, peeping.
Those are called nuisance offenses, or they used to be like, it's not important, it's a nuisance, go away.But one of the things they found out was 25% of serial killers, and it might be a higher percentage, I believe it is, for serial rapists,
did commit lesser, what are called nuisance crimes, early in their criminal careers. The answer to your question is, it used to be, it was an urban legend we found out, but it was a commonly held myth by police.
If somebody is a obscene caller, they're not gonna break in and rape someone.If somebody is exposing themselves in the park, they're not gonna progress to rape because they don't want that one-on-one interaction with the victim.
They just wanna shock her.
Well, it turns out that's not always true.Overall, how do you think sexual assault investigations have evolved since the Cherie Warren case in the 80s?
Well, sexual assault investigations started their magnificent evolution in Manhattan.Linda Fairstein, who is now a true crime author, but she used to be a prosecutor, and she saw
that investigators needed to be trained better, trained how to interview victims.And so Linda Ferristein started the first intensive training to investigate sex crimes in a different way than they ever had before.
How to interview, how to collect evidence, Interesting thing about false allegations of criminal sexual assault, they get a lot of headlines when they happen, but in fact, it's less than 2%.2% of hundreds of thousands of rape victims.
Most women actually are embarrassed to come forward and admit such a horrible thing happened to them.They don't want to go over the details.Oh, and by the way, male victims rarely come forward for the same reason.
If you think a woman's embarrassed, men, uh-uh.Unless they end up in an emergency room, they're going to take that to their grave.
Tell us about some of the big cases that you worked.
The first big case I worked on was the Tylenol murders in 1982 in Chicago. In one week, seven people mysteriously dropped dead after ingesting Tylenol.They didn't know each other.They weren't associated in any way.
And I was a rookie agent at the time, and I was assigned to work that case.It today is considered one of the most, if not the most infamous unsolved mass murder in the history of the United States.
Yeah.Well, we believe we know who did it.But in the United States, where we have something called evidence and probable cause and the criminal house rights, no, we didn't have enough to make an arrest.
And then later in my career, I was assigned to work on the Unabom case, but not as a profiler, just as a regular agent.And I was assigned with my partner, John, to go up to Montana. six weeks before the arrest.
We didn't know when the arrest was going to be.We had information from his brother, but that doesn't mean you can go knock on his door and drag him out and put him in jail.We had to find evidence to support that, and we did.
My partner and I ran around Montana for about six weeks, and then the big day came, and He was lured out of his cabin by my partners and my supervisor, and he was brought down to another cabin where I was.
We couldn't take him to jail because we only had an arrest warrant.And so while he was sitting at a
tiny little pine table in a unheated cabin with his handcuffs, hands cuffed behind his back, other FBI agents, bomb technicians, specialists, were in his cabin searching for evidence that would tie him to any of the bombings.
And it took about five hours before they were able to identify a chemical that they found in his cabin was identical to a chemical found at the site of where a man opened a package, the bomb exploded and killed him.
Kaczynski was changed from handcuffs to shackles and let out and to the jail in Helena, Montana.And there's that famous picture that went out all over the world.I was there.I was in the crowd of media.
Yeah, I covered that case.
And so that was certainly the biggest day to that point.That was April 3rd of 1996.And two, three months later, I was involved in the most wonderful, satisfying case of my life.
I was involved in the rescue of a little boy who had been kidnapped by a convicted child molester and was going through San Francisco at the time.
And I was with a team of agents, and we were at the Amtrak station on a Saturday morning looking for him.All we knew was the offender was six foot four and had copper red hair.And the little boy was 10 years old and had platinum white hair.
And everybody was spread out looking, and I heard this noise.It was my squad mates going, hey, FBI.And I turned around, and I ran up to what was going on, and I couldn't see the little boy.I could see this guy with red hair, but he had about six
male agents trying to bring him down and I looked through the arms and I saw this tiny little white arm and I reached in and I grabbed it and I pulled him out.His name is Tony.
And a few days later, we got him patched up and a few days later I took him home to reunite with his parents.
Oh, how satisfying, yeah.
Yeah, that was for the 20 years of my career, that was the moment.And we've remained friends.
In fact, we have a podcast where he's on the podcast.
He's all grown up now, 36 years old.
Candace, thank you for joining us today.It's been a pleasure.
Well, it was my pleasure.Thank you so much for having me.
Thanks again to Anna Rossi Anderson and Candice DeLong for joining us.You can catch Candice on the Killer Psyche and Killer Psyche Daily podcasts.
We'll be back with another episode of Talking Cold, where we will answer your burning questions with the host of the Cold podcast, Dave Cauley. Production by Nina Ernest and Ben Kebrick, and mixing also by Ben Kebrick.
For Amazon Music and Wondery, Managing Producer Candice Menriquez-Wren, Producer Claire Chambers, Senior Producer Lizzie Bassett, and Executive Producer Morgan Jones.Special thanks to Kale Bittner and Alison Vermeulen.
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