From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is riddled with unexplained events.You can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't want you to know.A production of iHeartRadio.
Hello, welcome back to the show.My name is Matt.My name is Noel.
They call me Ben.We're joined as always with our super producer, Dylan, the Tennessee pal faggot.Most importantly, you are you.You are here.That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know.We have something special for you this evening, folks.
A sprawling tale of true crime, corruption and conspiracy originating with Oddly enough, one of the key figures meant to help enact the law.This story is so wild that we had to go straight to the source to learn more.
And so we are over the moon to be joined with tonight's special guest, the award-winning journalist, host, writer, podcaster.You've heard him or seen him in everything.The man at the helm of the new podcast, Criminal Attorney, Brandon Jinks Jenkins.
Jinks, thanks so much for coming on the show today.
What's up, y'all?What an intro.I love that.Thank you all for having me. Ben's great at those.
Oh, man.We're so excited to talk to you, Jinx.We've been listening to criminal attorney.Look, this is just spoiler on my part.I haven't heard the final episode yet, so I'm all the way up to five.OK, and I am I got questions about the end.
I don't know how much we're going to spoil about the show because everybody can go listen to criminal attorney right now.
Need to issue a spoiler alert if you do choose to.True.Yeah.True.
Countdown from etiquette.
But before we get into anything, if you don't mind, tell us a little bit about yourself and then tell us how you got into this story.
Man, okay.It's funny.I'm back here in Atlanta for my school's homecoming.So a lot of friends are like now talking to me about it.And admittedly, I was not aware of how wide and like, just how big of an audience true crime is.
Like, you know, you might be into like, rap music, you might be into pop music, you might be into basketball, soccer, whatever.But it seems like everyone is into true crime, which probably says a lot about us as people.But anyways, yeah.
So it's been interesting because people are like, how'd you get here?So I guess you can say like my, my career of doing this started like, I don't know, man, maybe like a decade ago.And I was just like a blogger at a magazine called Mass Appeal.
So they used to do like hip hop, rap, graffiti, skate, all that stuff.
It's like one of my favorite, uh, favorite magazines back when it was in print.And then I was working there as like a young, like intern. And then from there, I transferred from there to Complex.
A lot of people that were working at Complex were ex-mass appealers.So they brought me in and they were like, hey, obviously you can write here, but we're doing this new thing on camera.And I was like, all right.
I feel like Complex has some pretty good writers.I don't know how good I am, but if I go on camera, like a B plus is an A plus because no one else is doing it.So I was like, you know, I jumped on.So we got into podcasting, man.
Been there, been there.Yeah.
Yeah.And I was like, all right, let me just kind of creep in here.And so from there, you know, one thing led to another and I started doing like more on camera stuff.And then eventually I got into podcasting.
Uh, there was a huge podcaster in the hip hop world, combat Jack.And he had, he had like his whole interview series with him and all his, like his cast of characters.
And then he transferred into doing something that was more narrative based and it was mogul.So. He covered the life and death of music executive Chris Lighty.And I mean, it went off.
I think that, obviously, narrative podcasts had been around, but I think hip hop didn't really have one.And if it did, not from a figure as celebrated as combat.But unfortunately, combat had passed away. And he and I were really good friends.
And the people that were involved in that were like, hey, we need someone to, we're thinking about continuing the series.Let's bring this guy in.And this guy was me.And it was a huge honor.
We did a season, well, we did like two episodes on combat, which were really great.I learned so much about his life.And then we did a season on Uncle Luke and the two live crew, which was, uh,
You know parts of it probably could be on the true crime show but you know it was really cool and then from there we did dj screw in texas so we told these narrative stories about their lives.
And then we kind of found this thing right at the end where we combined some of the idea of mobile which is music. and then brought it into the true crime space on a show that was titled Conviction.
And so we told the story of Max B, this New York City, New Jersey based rapper who got caught in a sort of murder plot.You know, it was supposed to be a robbery.And then the robbery got botched.The person they were trying to rob got murdered.
And Max was sort of the person who orchestrated this.But in that, he was looking for a lawyer.Right.It's like, hey, I'm going out for murder.I need to find a lawyer. One of the lawyers that he crossed paths with was Paul Berggren.
And so he meets Paul and he's like, all right, here, this guy wins all his cases, you know, like, uh, then he had tried in like a New Jersey courtroom.We should get this guy.
From what I gather, again, I didn't think my old producer who brought me to this project told me about it.But basically, Paul offered his services, which was like, hey, maybe we should murder the witness and just spitball in here.
You guys, you know what I mean?It's a quick fix.You know, that's for sure.Look, we can plead out, you know, we can take it to trial or hear me out.
That's a jump down the street right there.
And it's like, I know what you're thinking.Let me finish.I wonder how it is.
Like, I wonder if it's in sort of a, you know, law and order, like, esk room, like all just like dark oak, you know, and it's like, or if it's written on a piece of paper, and he flips it over and just says murder, you know, who knows?
Yeah.And then yeah. Or as we learn in the show, he'll take you to a rooftop to have that conversation, or maybe into the stall of a bathroom, right?
Yeah, or a restaurant that he owns, you know.And Max declined.He ended up getting another lawyer named Jerry Saluti, who seemed clearly inept.And Max is now, he's doing time right now.I want to say he's in Bergen County Jail in New Jersey.
That didn't work out, but he also didn't get caught in a murder-for-hire plot.So anyways, that's how we found the story.And so what I thought was interesting about it was that I kind of came from the music and hip hop.
We had a moment where those things intersected, and we ended up with true crime and hip hop.And then this was sort of just true crime.So our producer, Matthew Nelson, found this story in the nature, just due to the nature of producing our last one.
And he was like, hey, this guy Paul is insane. this would be a really great episode, a really great series.We're like, yeah, sure.Let's, let's take care of the one at hand.And then I get a call and he's like, Hey, so remember, remember Paul?
I was like, no.And then he told me, I was like, Oh yeah, him.Uh, do you think we should do this?You know, I guess he, is he out?He's like, no, he's in jail.I was like, all right, let's do it.
Hi, I'm MRN lead pit reporter, Steve Post.And I'm championship winning crew chief, Todd Gordon.Go behind the scenes each week with us for MRN Crew Call, where we'll talk to some of the biggest names standing atop the pit box.
As well as break down all the exciting action from the weekend in NASCAR and go into detail on the winning strategies.Crew Call is also where you'll hear from the first time winners.
And the champions from the NASCAR Cup Series to the Craftsman Truck Series.Listen today in the iHeartRadio app or on your favorite podcast platform.
Immerse yourself in a world of over a billion vibrant colors with Vizio's Quantum QLED TVs.No matter where you're sitting, everyone gets the perfect view thanks to wide viewing angle.Enjoy truly immersive gameplay with 120 FPS at 1080p.
You can even stream your favorite songs with the iHeartRadio app, ready to go on every Vizio Quantum TV.From movie nights to gaming marathons, the Vizio Quantum TV delivers unparalleled performance and picture.
Head to Walmart to find your Vizio Quantum TV today. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford, and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty.
Well, I don't know about you, but I never liked being told, oh, wow, you look so good for your age.Like, why even bother saying that?Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age?That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about.
We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now.
Meaningful Beauty.Beautiful skin at every age.Learn more at MeaningfulBeauty.com.
These days, being an adult can feel more overwhelming than it does fun.Any kids out there willing to trade places?No?Worth a shot.But you know who can rekindle the magic of childhood?Apple and Eve juice.
We were the first to put juice in a box, and 50 years later, we're still packing the joy.
Our fresh, delicious fruit taste transports you right back to the goodness of childhood, where afternoons of water balloon fights and rollerblading were made even sweeter by a refreshing sip of juice.
and with refreshing juice blends bursting with flavor.It's as good for your kids today as it was back then, when joy was yours for the taking.So when the grind dulls your shine, tap your inner child to reclaim it.Sing your heart out in carpool.
Play hide and seek in the supermarket.Relive those joyful moments with your kids by shopping Apple and Eve at a store near you.Apple and Eve, let's kid ourselves.
You've almost certainly been prescribed a medication before, but did you understand how it worked?The way your medication works in your body shouldn't be a mystery.
Learn how Vivgart-Hytrulo, Efgartigamot Alpha, and Hyaluronidase QVFC works by visiting vivgart.com slash MOA.That's V-Y-V-G-A-R-T dot com slash MOA.Brought to you by Argenix.
This gets us to the heart of the story, the first season of Criminal Attorney.Jinx, is it fair to say that you didn't know all the plot twists that would happen?
Because as I'm listening along, as all of us are listening along, the story just gets crazier and crazier, like Shyamalan after Shyamalan plot twist.
To say I didn't know where the story was going is like an understatement because you hear where you're going to end.And sometimes, you know, I think when I click like a true crime show on any streaming app, you know, I just kind of click it.
It's like very clear log line.You're like, all right, this seems interesting.But with this one, I was like, I know the end date.So I'm like, ah, what could happen in between?That will be more surprising.
But how bold he is and the sheer audacity of the decisions he's willing to make. is kind of amazing, but also really haunting.This is a human being.He could be in the grocery store.
And also just how it's the bravado and how he's willing to say these things confidently.Again, from what we gathered, he offered these services to the rapper Max B. It's not enough to do it.You have to say it.It's just like, what?
You know, I mean, it's like this is a hashtag not all attorneys kind of situation, but it really does show you to the lengths to which some people obsessed with the idea of winning will go.
You know, this is like a glimpse into an entire world, like through one person who's maybe an extreme case. But it really does kind of make my mind sort of latch on to this idea that there's more cases like this, you know?
I'm sure.You know, it's like when you boil down like any career, right?Like whatever your thing is, or not even career, any aspiration, whatever your goal is, what you'll justify to get there is pretty wild, right?And I think like,
That's kind of what I felt about Pollock on a, I guess, maybe a more serious note.It's like, man, you're like, these are like real people you're playing.You know, these are like real human beings that he's just moving them onto his own mental board.
What's the level of sociopathy or dare I say psychopathy that is required to win perpetually like that?Because you have no scruples, because there's no point at which you will say, oh, this is too far.There's no such thing as too far.
Let's stick with that.Let's let's stick with that real quick, because we're talking about Paul.We're saying he's larger than life.There's some really interesting things when you look at his how he came up.
You know, on paper, his early career looks pretty prestigious.We're talking a major, we're talking a guy who is working on the quote-unquote right side of the law for a while.And I love the point about that slow slide into criminality, right?
No one wakes up one day and says, yeah, today I'm going to be the villain, right?I'm going full kingpin on this one.It's a slippery slope.It's a slow gradient. of, as you said, Jinx, justifying behavior.
How would you describe Paul to someone who had never met him?Like if they're about to walk into a room with this guy, what do you tell them before they meet him?
And that's a good question.I'm just thinking like, what would I do?You know?Yeah.It's tough because it's like, I always think it's like when you first meet someone, it's like you get like that like kind of minute
Like of like, you know, just trying to read them up really quickly.And I feel like Paul is someone that very quickly, he seems dangerous, at least to me.Right.
What I also think you cannot, you cannot remove the fact that when people meet Paul, they need something. Right.They need they need someone to get them out of trouble.And he's saying all the right things.And people like that are fucking scary to me.
Like your guy was just like, you're like, this is my life.Don't worry.And you're like, I'm here because I'm worried.What are you talking about?
Anyone that just like you got a right size things, you know, so like if you're not right size, obviously a lawyer shouldn't he shouldn't be terrified.He shouldn't, you know, instill some sort of confidence.
But like someone is making it seem like he's just going to make this go away. Okay, like, yeah.
Oh, Jinx, you got a headache?
Yeah.No worries.You know, it's like the guys who are just like nothing phases them or that most everything's bounced out, right?So like, if my problem is this tall, and you're telling me it's nothing, that balance is going to come somewhere else.
What are you going to do to make it nothing?You know, and the way to put it, maybe it's my own skepticism.But people like that usually like, if I were in the chair, you know, it's like, OK, I'm giving him less details about my life and I'm ready.Hmm.
Yeah.Do do you see formative moments in his career?Like clearly again, he didn't start off. as this character.Were there crossroad moments, people might call it, with this slide into criminality?
For sure.I mean, you know, one that you all just said that made me was like, oh, I guess that makes a ton of sense, what he's willing to do to win.But as you all said it, it clicked in my mind.
I'm like, oh, well, when he was with the US attorneys, he was winning. And it wasn't until, it wasn't even that he lost the case, it wasn't until he felt like he lost his relationship with, you know, the fellow, like, sort of, U.S.
attorneys, or I don't know what you call it, the Bureau, that's when he was like, okay, f*** you guys, and I'm going to go to this side.And so, in this way, he has to rewrite winning in his mind.
But I also think, like, and if winning is your key North Star, then that's just subjective, you know?Like, whoever you do it and who you're winning with,
You know, it's like if I can't beat them, join them energy is, uh, that to me is like, that's less about, I'm here to do the right thing.I'm here to uphold the law.So it knows saying it's like, I'm, I'm, I'm here to win and.
there is no right side to that, that's just you.But the other thing I'll say is that apparently he grew up in a law family.
It's one of those things, as you get older, I grew up and I look back sometimes, even in my neighborhood, I'm from New Jersey originally, and even in my neighborhood, some of the guys that are cops are some of the kids that were tripping in high school.
How is everyone that I went to high school with that's a cop or like, you know, you saw we like, what are you doing?You know?So it's funny how those lines blur, how how closely related they are for a thousand reasons.
Maybe you want to be a cop because things around you are crazy or maybe you want to be a cop because it's like because of what it allows you to do.
I don't know those because you were bullied and now you want to bully literally everyone.
I think about it and I'm like, I think about it to me, like when you have cops, ostensibly criminals are their colleagues, right?
Like, they're in constant conversation with them, almost more than they're in conversation with, like, any of us on this call.So, like, if you are a political journalist, your colleagues are politicians, right?
Like, there is a dance between the two of you, and I think it's hard not to have some of that ain't rub off when those two fires touch.
And I think for Paul, someone who grew up in a cop family, he grew up around police and also understanding the military as well, I think that he has an extreme sense of loyalty, but where that compass points, that's what's up for grabs.
I want to switch from Paul a little bit to the other side, to the FBI, because you in criminal attorney, you introduce us to somebody named Sean Brokos, who is an FBI agent that you got to listen to the show to understand this, but it has basically basically been eyeing Paul for a long time, but not even necessarily Paul eyeing ways to kind of rise in the ranks of the FBI.
you describe how she got in just on a whim.She like decided, you know, I'm going to go try and join the FBI and then figured out how to move up quickly.
Can you describe like the process of moving up through the FBI, at least her attempt to do it by flipping somebody low level and moving up?And then how did she encounter Paul?
Well, it feels like one, I thought it was crazy that she went from being like the bank teller just right to the FBI.And I was like, oh, some reason, imagine that being like a lifelong journey.
But apparently you can do it in like seven years, which is is crazy.I don't know.Is that like, is that OK?You know, right.
That's like someone getting their their medical degree a little too soon.You know what I mean?
Just walk into a hospital.You know what? I'm going to join up.Yeah.
Which is funny because Paul tries to pull that off later.But, you know, to me, it's like you need less.You need like you can fly a plane way less, you know.I don't know.
But yeah, it's like, you know, with any sort of law enforcement, it seems to me it's the cases that you make, right?Like your ability to turn over cases and then also like quickly and how much those cases net.I imagine like
Um, whatever the sort of jurisdiction you're in, what their agenda is, maybe it's a violent crime, maybe it's drugs, you know, um, the FBI in her era is probably, this is like what 2000, this is like, I'm imagining, I mean, probably post nine 11, it's a lot of drugs.
a huge oversight from like Homeland Security is involved.So, and also she's in the metro area.So I imagine there's a lot of competition, a lot of dollars circulating.
For her, she's playing in the background of Newark, New Jersey, which is sort of in, you know, the background of a New York City.
So, which, you know, at the time, I mean, especially with Newark, it's like, well, drugs are everywhere, but in Newark, it has sort of a connotation, the baggage of that.So for Sean, These are going to be the cases that she makes.
And if she can take down this drug kingpin, I believe I have named Will Baskerville.If she can take him down, you know, that's big.And that allows her to rise through the ranks or, you know, who knows, maybe be a director.
But it would be huge news to take down a drug fool in Newark, New Jersey.
Yeah, and she goes after a guy named chemo, right?Mm-hmm who is kind of lower level I guess yeah, and man, the story of his life is tragic and You know you go over that a lot in the show just Sorry, I'm just talking like a fan right now.
I wanted to learn more about chemo cuz chemo is with his stepfather and when, well, I'm jumping forward, I'm spoiling stuff, so let's just say Kimo's an integral part of the show, but he only gets to play a part for a short time.
Yeah, you know, and I think what's interesting about this is that the role Kimo plays, right, he's not a decision maker, you know, he's sort of like kind of pushed and pulled between all these people with more power, you know, whether it's Will Baskerville, you know, Sean Brokos,
in many ways, you know, Paul Berggren and what he's got going on over there.And then, you know, you have to also acknowledge that Kimo's made whatever decision within the circumstances he has up until this point when Sean Frost has passed.
So I think what you end up feeling with Kimo probably more than anyone is, like you said, that gradient, like the shades and gray of someone's life and like how you can be in this really uncomfortable position almost from the start.
And so like, yes, you have choices, but what are your choices?Is it between a rock and a hard place, you know, and when someone that doesn't have that, that sort of that environment or that
that set of circumstances, when they come into your world, there's no acknowledgement of what you've gone through, what you don't have.It's just opportunity to them, right?It's opportunity for Sean.It's opportunity for Paul.
It's opportunity for Will, you know?So it's a sad part of the story for sure.
And with FBI agent Brokos, there's something that stands out.
In a weird way, Ben, it kind of parallels how you were telling us the provenance of the story, how you all discovered the story of criminal attorney, because agent Brokos is starting to look at this
criminal defense attorney that she at first does not know, right?And she's going, hang on.Every time this guy takes a case, he wins going back to the idea of winning.
And just for anybody not in the legal field, you're not supposed to win all the time.Usually, I mean, they want to, but that's not how it works.And so there's this excellent storytelling in our narrative where
we start to ask ourselves, how can somebody, a criminal defense attorney, always seem to be winning?Do you see that parallel?Because I feel like she started looking at Paul Berggren
similar to the way like you guys discovered him not necessarily looking at him from the jump.
Well also too it's like she's you got to figure she's also trained in a way to like spot not the weakness but spot like irregularities and like she's constantly dealing with people who either a aren't winning or b she's going to hand them their loss right so like if you're if you're looking
My dad said something to me once, as a kid, he was talking about, like, he was describing school and, like, kids that act tough.
And he's like, man, the kid who's, like, trying to fight everybody, the kid who just goes around, he's like, his day is going to come because he's winning too much.And there's a guy who wins over there is going to look for him, right?
It's just what it is.It's, like, levels of competition.It's like, for Sean, she spots that.She can smell that, right?It's like, hey, what
taking down a chemo is nothing i mean to the point where chemo is not doesn't even register on her bill like he becomes a pawn that's not something that you take home that's not a trophy you know he needs to be used to get a real winner you know and so it says what competition looks like and what um people that play at a high level what they spot and if you play in certain fields people will like smell that out it's like
If LeBron drops 60 tomorrow, he's getting that random drug test.Like, they're like, hey, like, you know, like, tomorrow, just pee in a cup, man.Like, you know, if you go, if you go up to bat, like, we got the World Series coming.
Like, if every at bat, you're connecting, you're getting, you're getting the letter the next day.You know, like, we're checking.And this is a game where we want someone to win, but you can't win that much.And I think that says a lot about us.
That says a lot about Sean and just like, Yeah, what we – how we regard with, you know.
do favors for people that could do him favors.So the reason why he gets, you know, in trouble and ends up leaving the U.S.
Attorney's Office is because he becomes a character witness in the trial for two homicide detectives that appear to have really helped him win cases, right?
Which is like, First off, dude, that's the other thing.It's like, yo, you could resist this.You could say no.But he can't.But yeah, that's exactly what he was doing.He's playing both sides of the law.
And I think for him, we're just talking about, let's say, not to start LeBron drug test rumors.I don't know why I said that.Don't do that.
Don't do that.I don't know.
That made me laugh out loud.I think we keep it.But it's like, winning within the confines of the game, right?Like, are you actually winning in the courtroom?Or in the LeBron case, are you winning on the court?
Or did you do something before the game to win, you know, that isn't preparation?And I think Paul understood that.I think Paul was like, hey, I need to do something outside of this in order to win.
So whether it's trade favors, whether it's to leverage people, whether it's intimidation, you know, like I think he understood how to grease those wheels and move those things.
Yes, he's very theatrical in court and he's very boastful and has a lot of confidence, but that's fueled. by the fact that he knows he's got, you know, he's counting cards over here, you know.
So I think, yeah, I think what he did outside of court shows what he was willing to do.And it's now that you say it, like, I feel like I should look into this.It's like, did they vacate those cases?
You know, like, how many of those cases did they have to go back and look at?
Oh, I will pause here for a word from our sponsors.
Ready to unleash the power of 4K?Vizio's 4K TV collection has you covered, with sizes ranging from 43 inches all the way up to a jaw-dropping 86-inch screen.
Experience stunning clarity like never before, bringing your favorite shows and movies to life.And with Watch Free Plus built in, you'll enjoy free live and on-demand TV right out of the box.
You can even stream your favorite songs with the iHeartRadio app, ready to go on every Vizio 4K TV.Upgrade your entertainment.
Head to Walmart to find your Vizio 4K TV today. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford, and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty.
Well, I don't know about you, but, like, I never liked being told, oh, wow, you look so good for your age.Like, why even bother saying that?Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age?That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about.
We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty.
Beautiful skin at every age.Learn more at MeaningfulBeauty.com.
These days, being an adult can feel more overwhelming than it does fun.Any kids out there willing to trade places?No?Worth a shot.But you know who can rekindle the magic of childhood?Apple and Eve Juice.
We were the first to put juice in a box, and 50 years later, we're still packing the joy.
Our fresh, delicious fruit taste transports you right back to the goodness of childhood, where afternoons of water balloon fights and rollerblading were made even sweeter by a refreshing sip of juice.
And with refreshing juice blends bursting with flavor, it's as good for your kids today as it was back then, when joy was yours for the taking.So when the grind dulls your shine, tap your inner child to reclaim it.Sing your heart out in carpool.
Play hide and seek in the supermarket. Relive those joyful moments with your kids by shopping Apple and Eve at a store near you.Apple and Eve, let's kid ourselves.
You've almost certainly been prescribed a medication before, but did you understand how it worked?The way your medication works in your body shouldn't be a mystery.
Learn how Vivgart-Hytrulo, Efgartigamot Alpha, and Hyaluronidase QVFC works by visiting vivgart.com slash MOA.That's V-Y-V-G-A-R-T dot com slash MOA.Brought to you by Argenix.
Attention parents and grandparents.Are you searching for the perfect gift for your kids this holiday season?Give the gift of adventure that will last all year long.A Guardian bike.The easiest, safest, and quickest bikes for kids to learn on.
Kids are learning to ride in just one day.No training wheels needed.What makes Guardian bikes special?They're the easiest to ride thanks to thoughtful engineering, lightweight frames, and kid-friendly components.
Kids love how fun and easy they are to ride.And parents appreciate the safety features, like the patented braking system that prevents head-over-handlebar accidents.
Guardian bikes are the only kids' bikes designed and assembled in a USA factory, ensuring top-notch quality and durability.They're built to last and make perfect hand-me-downs.
Join the hundreds of thousands of happy families by getting a Guardian bike today.Their holiday season sales have begun, offering the biggest deal of the year.Save up to 25% on bikes.No code needed.
Plus, get free shipping and a free bike lock and pump with your first purchase after signing up for their newsletter. Visit GuardianBikes.com to take advantage of these deals and secure your holiday season gifts today.Happy riding!
an inherent distrust I have of people that maybe make the idea of being a defense attorney their whole life's goal.I know it's required for the judicial system to function.You have to have people on both sides and people willing to represent
people that seem guilty of sin or whatever, but it just seems like a snake pit.Like, I just wonder what your thoughts are on the profession, you know, of being that kind of attorney.
And like, if you have a balance from your research as to like, what are the good ones look like versus folks like this.
Well, one, my my perspective is completely skewed, because for whatever reason, I just I watched Law and Order the entire time making this for like, not even for the help.
I just it's a comfort show is what it is.It really is.
I love cooking to murder, man.You know what I mean?Sprinkle a little homicide on top, you know.
But by the way, just to plug here, everybody go listen to Law and Order criminal justice system.The first season's out right now.Oh, yeah.
or wherever you find your favorite wherever you find your podcast skewed.
Okay, I guess I could see why but maybe please like elaborate.
Well, it's just like, because it's always like that thing behind.I mean, obviously, it's a totally fabricated show.But it's the conversations behind that we're not privy to where the person knows the person they're representing is guilty.
So again, it's what you're saying.It's just it's about winning.And the fact that we have a system like that is pretty wild where The prosecution's like, hey, we gotta prove this person's guilty.They just did something terrible.
And the criminal defense attorney's like, hey, I know you did something terrible.We have to find a way to get you out of it.And I think something about that, I can't call it American, but I guess I can call it American.
I don't know how these things work in any other country.That's kind of America.Like that's, yeah. There was a question that arose when we were talking about anti-heroes at some point, and why we root for the bad guys sometimes.
And I'm like, that's American.That's cowboy culture.That's Billy the Kid.That's American gangster.We root for that person.
That's also the revolving door of private and public industry.It's a it's a stern.Yeah.Yeah.Like who better to watch the hen house than the former wolf?You know what I mean?
It's the score that New York Times article.I remember I found the headline.It circulates every once in a while where it's like the CIA finds itself not guilty of like planting crack.
You're like, oh, yeah, like, you know, you're investigating yourself.Yeah.
We've talked about on this show so many times, Jinx, just about how that American thing you're talking about where, well, Ben, we always talk about how the United States was formed via conspiracy to rise up against the powers that be, right?
I mean, that's literally how the country formed.And it just, everything then that we create inside it is this way of rejecting stuff.
I don't know.And what we define underneath that, right?So we'll say that something's like fair and If that's your starting point, it takes a long time to question what fair is.That is not something you think about when you're like 10, 18.
If you think about 18, you end up on the FBI watch list.But by the time you think about that, you're an adult of like, wait, what's fair?Who came up with it?And we have these systems that, yeah, like a criminal defense attorney, what makes you good?
And are you good because you're like, Like, what is that?Or it's just really, I think it goes back to what you're saying, you're good because you win.
Yeah, this gets us to another parallel I would suggest.I'm walking down the street for this one.There's something Colonel Kurtz about it, like in Heart of Darkness or Apocalypse Now, because
We see Paul Berggren, he's a prosecutor, like I was asking earlier, Jinx, for a formative moment.It sounds like the moment where he's a character witness is where things start to turn on him with his legal colleagues, the prosecutors.
And I love that point you made earlier about, you know, technically, your colleagues in the law are also going to be criminals.So this this then would this be his formative moment?
Because I believe he resigns from the attorney's office, like just like Colonel Kurtz.His career looks great on paper.I think it was working for Alito at some point for Samuel Alito, which is crazy, right?Right.
And is it simply that motivation to win that made him switch sides and play defense?
I mean, I feel like I'm just engaging with these thoughts for the first time, because I kind of took it as it was.As you guys started bringing up the concept of winning, this feels really like the theme.And I know it's like in the trail.
He'll do anything to win, but if you guys are saying it, I'm like, oh, ****, like, yeah, he will.And I think what he saw is other people that play a similar position on the court that weren't expressing him the same.
Like, they got in the way of his win.And, you know, he resigned, but they were pretty much pushing him out.And I think it's one of those things where you
Some of you are doing the same thing as someone else, but you reveal that you are doing it two different ways and for different reasons.
And I could see him easily going back and being like, what loyalty or when someone is like, but we won, you know, and someone's like, no, that's not how you do it, you know, and or look at all my other wins.Why don't they negate this thing?
And it's like, hey, you're we're lawyers like we're U.S.attorney's office, like you're tripping like you.You can't go do that.And these guys, these are the ones that you're going to do this for.
You know, and I think he ran into the other part of like the American culture, especially when you get into anything that deals with like the judicial system or politicians like, hey, we also have an image to upkeep and you're not really one of us.
And this was like the moment that we decided you're not one of us.This is where we kick you out the country club. And I think that that is something that we don't really lean heavily on in Paul's story.
But Paul is like this from humble beginnings, you know, he's he's probably from that world where police and criminals occupy the same bar, you know, like they all drink together, but they go out and do their own thing, especially, you know, somewhere like New Jersey.
So I think that I think he probably had a rude awakening there. Anyone else would be like, hey, it's a lesson to learn or it's not where I need to be.He's like, fuck you guys, I'm gonna get revenge, you know?
Which you kind of like as, I hate to say it, we're so programmed, but like as Americans, a lot of us listening along tonight, there were several people in the audience who went, I get it, I get it.I might not agree, but I've been there.
I didn't know how bad a person I was until I rewatched Breaking Bad.It wasn't until I saw where Walter started, I was like, oh man, he really transformed.And then I was like, wait, I don't think I ever stopped rooting for him.I'm fucked up.
Yeah.Well, I love that Paul did an East Coast Saul Goodman.That makes me really happy because that is kind of what he did.
And, um, I want to get, so I want to go stay on this track of him doing favors for eventual favors in creating basically a crew of human beings that he knows and he can call upon and, and he can help out.I want to jump to,
jason itzler i think is how you say his name yeah this is a guy that somehow paul meets and gets to know because jason itzler is dealing with some legal issues paul meets him.
And figures out oh i think we could have a cozy little relationship here and get into a business venture to talk to us about what jason itzler was doing and how these guys form the partnership.
Well, Jason's running essentially like this brothel, New York Confidential.And it's funny because I don't know why I'm realizing all these things as you guys are talking.I'm like, oh, wait, that's the show we need.But like, you know.
It's easy to lose perspective when you're in it like that.
Yeah, it's like Jason is, he runs a brothel, which naturally it's going to have you run right up against the law, for better or worse, because I can't even imagine this clientele, how many people were in there that
We're all supposed to be on this other side of the law, right?
And also the name is a little on the nose.You know what I mean?Like, call it something different on that.
Yeah, it's not like, you know, it's like having, um, you know, like you got like a drug den and like on the outside it just says secrets.Like, what the fuck?
You know, you go to secrets.Sorry, folks.We're all from Atlanta.
Yeah.Secret secrets are no fun. Yeah, it's like there was a story recently about like a giant bag of drugs that was found that was labeled Definitely not a giant bag of drugs.
Yes Which like if if I were a law force and I found it again, I'd be like hmm You got that.That's cool.Yeah.
So this this is a pretty crazy story, though.It's like this is, you know, obviously we've got a little bit of levity here, but a brothel being run out of this location in New York escort service guy. in Manhattan.Sure.Something confidential.
I can't say it.I'm not the judge, but the, um, the, what, what we see here immediately, kind of like how you're talking about our FBI agent broke goes how you get that Spidey sense.Yeah.Smell an ill wind.
This is a huge red flag to all sorts of other related crimes.Right.And this is why these guys, Jason and Paul kind of begin you know, messing with each other because like you were saying earlier, Jinx.
people don't come to him unless they need something.
A few things here.Smelling ill wind.I'm stealing that.That's amazing.Just imagine like describing someone else.It'll win like that.Oh, my God.
But I'd also say, yeah, you know, and also I want to go back to that first question of what I would say to someone if they met Paul.Yeah, because as you're saying, it's like if you're Jason, you're like, oh, Paul's like me.No, he's not.
Paul is always going to have the upper hand, right?Because Paul plays in the key.Jason doesn't get afforded the benefit of the doubt.He runs New York Confidential, right?Will Baskin doesn't get afforded the benefit of the doubt.
None of his other clients get afforded the benefit of the doubt.That's why they get a lawyer, because a lawyer is supposed to have the benefit of the doubt.
But because Paul is playing, you know, quick and fast with their careers or not their lives, he's able to kind of like permeate these lines and kind of transfer back and forth.
And what would you do if you told your lawyer, you tell your lawyer secrets, he's supposed to protect you and say he sees an opportunity.So it's almost even different than Sean because he doesn't have to look for it.
He's created a shop where you come here to be repaired.And he's like, hey, I'm going to repair you to the public side but we're going to use the thing that's broken about you and I'm going to manipulate that for my own gain.
So you're never going to get away from this thing.I mean, it's like the mob.It's like, hey, Tony Soprano, can you help me get out of this jam?He's like, I'm going to pay this thing but you're not going to get out of the jam.I'm the jam.
You know what I mean?You work for me now.
He has a very different interpretation of attorney-client's privilege because now it's his privilege to treat people as a tool for a use, right?
And he's, uh, it's, Sean has a whole other level of privilege because she's the law, but Paul is much more nefarious because he's, he's playing both sides in a way that Sean isn't, you know?
Well, and he's now got a brothel, which he can use as that tool to coerce somebody into doing something by getting them into a position, right?
Where, oh, well, if I, you know, if anyone finds out that you're over here, insert NBA player or, you know, like high level human beings that are rolling through New York confidential, when it moves, what is it?
It moves to a different location, like in Manhattan.
That he steals, by the way, he steals it from Jason and reopens it himself.You know, and then like changes the name slightly.I think it was like you're a confidential, like incorporated.We're like, oh, oh, classy.Cool.
You know, it's like when you copy someone's paper and you like write the name on the top two and teachers like, hey, that's try harder.But yeah, you know, he's able to sort of manipulate all these characters.
And what's not lost on me is that there's part in the story where we talk about You know the cops are coming and they're watching the cops raid them on a webcam.I'm like, guys, he's got a webcam.
He's got stored footage of everyone that's walking in this place, and you're coming here for secrecy.You're coming here to be able to do the things you want to do away from it confidentially.There's nothing confidential about
security cameras that record what you do.And Paul has access to this, Paul and his crew.So he's never what he says he is.
So to go back to that initial question of what I would say to people that deal with Paul is like, it's sort of like that meme of Jesse and Walter where he said he can't keep getting away with this.
Paul, up until this point, will always get away with it.He will always have the upper hand. You cannot let your guard down around him, you know?Mm-hmm.He's big into insurance for sure, right?Yeah.
Before we jump away from New York Confidential, do you mind, Ben, just I wanted to tell you guys the thing I was mentioning off mic like earlier before.
When you look at the address of where New York Confidential moved when it got, it was in Hoboken and then it moved to Manhattan.And when it moved to Manhattan, the address was 79 Worth Street. in Manhattan.
And if you look at that location on Google Maps, just if you've listened to this show before, and then you go to Street View, and you just turn the Street View 180 degrees, you will see the AT&T Long Lines building, also known as the giant windowless building that's down there in Manhattan.
That's the place where Operation Stellar Wind was taking place when the United States and the NSA decided they needed to do the whole warrantless wiretapping thing during the Bush administration in the early 2000s.
It was happening in that building in that year, 2003, 2004.Exactly at the same time that New York Confidential was occurring.
I think it's also really diplomatic that you're putting stellar wind in past tense.
Oh, no.When when it was being enacted for the first time during the Bush administration, it's crazy to me.
Can you imagine?You know, it's funny because even when I found out where Paul is locked up, right?I don't know.Spoiler alert, I guess.When I think, look, yeah, he's in prison.You know, he's in Supermax.And I was like, Supermax.
I mean, like, does that go for any murderer? And then I realized like, oh, one, you really can't let this guy near a phone, right?He's like, he's compulsive.Like if he gets a phone, you know, what will he do?
Which is like crazy to think we can't let you get a phone, you know, because you'll try again and you really can't help yourself.And but when you say that, I mean, that's really crazy.Like if I had a guy who, you know, it's like murdering
A drug dealer is not put you in supermax, you know, like almost on any standards.Well, like Tamper with Witnesses, when you add them all up, I could see it.But I think one, his connection to the U.S.
Attorney's Office, just in that that timeline of his, like, no, you're not getting back out.We're not.That's not happening.And if you bring up the cell or one thing, it's like there's a club across the street from work like. Right?
Yeah.It's more than weird.Because like you said, you have to, you have to. do the most to get in Supermax.And I love the comparison you've made earlier, Jinx, the idea of Walter White, right?
A person who is not ostensibly, necessarily physically dangerous, right?But who is mentally a supervillain.You can't let these people around phones because every, especially because they already know the inner workings of prosecution.
which is a tremendous power.
And Paul isn't like murdered anyone himself that we know of.But like his crime, same as Walters, is in social engineering.Like he's incredibly good at moving the pieces on the board.
And where someone else would see a risk, he just sees a tight window to operate.If he were, you know, it's like how like athletes see the field differently.Like they just see the style of play differently.
They don't know what they're going to, you know, like looking at Kyrie Irving dribble, like He doesn't know what he's going to do 15 feet away, but he sees an opening.
And then somehow his learnings, his mechanics, everything he's built around himself allows him to shoot a gap or move this way.It's all unfolding in real time.I think Paul is a savant.
I think he is that kind of person where he puts something in motion, he can't totally predict it.
But how present he is in these moments requires either an addiction or fascination with this, because everyone's got sleep, and this guy wakes up in crime, at least up here.
That's a way.Seeing the field differently is a beautiful comparison there.It's somewhat terrifying comparison, but I believe it's absolutely astute because the risk calculations are different.
Hey, let's take a quick pause in our conversation with Jinx to hear a word from our sponsors and then we shall return momentarily.
Ready to unleash the power of 4K?Vizio's 4K TV collection has you covered with sizes ranging from 43 inches all the way up to a jaw-dropping 86-inch screen.Experience stunning clarity like never before.
Bringing your favorite shows and movies to life, and with Watch Free Plus built in, you'll enjoy free live and on-demand TV right out of the box.You can even stream your favorite songs with the iHeartRadio app, ready to go on every Vizio 4K TV.
Upgrade your entertainment.
Head to Walmart to find your Vizio 4K TV today. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford, and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty.
Well, I don't know about you, but I never liked being told, oh, wow, you look so good for your age.Like, why even bother saying that?Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age?That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about.
We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now.
Meaningful Beauty.Beautiful skin at every age.Learn more at MeaningfulBeauty.com.
These days, being an adult can feel more overwhelming than it does fun.Any kids out there willing to trade places?No?Worth a shot.But you know who can rekindle the magic of childhood?Apple and Eve Juice.
We were the first to put juice in a box, and 50 years later, we're still packing the joy.
Our fresh, delicious fruit taste transports you right back to the goodness of childhood, where afternoons of water balloon fights and rollerblading were made even sweeter by a refreshing sip of juice.
And with refreshing juice blends bursting with flavor, it's as good for your kids today as it was back then, when joy was yours for the taking.So when the grind dulls your shine, tap your inner child to reclaim it.Sing your heart out in carpool.
Play hide and seek in the supermarket. Relive those joyful moments with your kids by shopping Apple and Eve at a store near you.Apple and Eve, let's kid ourselves.
You've almost certainly been prescribed a medication before, but did you understand how it worked?The way your medication works in your body shouldn't be a mystery.
Learn how Vivgart-Hytrulo, Efgartigamot Alpha, and Hyaluronidase QVFC works by visiting vivgart.com slash MOA.That's V-Y-V-G-A-R-T dot com slash MOA.Brought to you by Argenix.
Attention parents and grandparents.Are you searching for the perfect gift for your kids this holiday season?Give the gift of adventure that will last all year long.A Guardian bike.The easiest, safest, and quickest bikes for kids to learn on.
Kids are learning to ride in just one day.No training wheels needed.What sets Guardian bikes apart?
Designed especially for stability, they're low to the ground with a wide wheelbase and ultra-lightweight frames, offering superior control and balance.This design gives young riders the ability to learn in just one day, without tears or frustration.
Guardian bikes are the only kids' bikes designed and assembled in a USA factory, ensuring top-notch quality and durability.They were also featured on Shark Tank and are the New York Times Wirecutter Top Kids' Bike Pick for 2024.
Join the hundreds of thousands of happy families by getting a Guardian bike today.Their holiday season sales have begun.Offering the biggest deal of the year.Save up to 25% on bikes.No code needed.
Plus get free shipping and a free bike lock and pump with your first purchase after signing up for their newsletter.Visit GuardianBikes.com to take advantage of these deals and secure your holiday season gifts today.Happy riding!
And as promised, we have returned.This is where we get to the next act, maybe, of the slide.
Because when we're saying he's a savant, which after listening to criminal attorney, I fully agree with, we're saying he's a savant, folks, please do not misconstrue that as us saying he got away.
because as talented and as lucid and brilliant as this guy was, it seems that things began to go wrong, partially due to New York Confidential, oh excuse me, New York Confidential Inc.
Yeah, his second attempt, but I think that's the other thing about winning is like, While he can be talented and that helps him manifest wings, it's also the same thing.It's being an addict.He's addicted to it, clearly.
Because there's moments where he could stop.Jason Itchler gets locked for your confidential. Paul says, okay, let's just run it back.Like what?Like this guy, the guy you're supposed to be defending, he's in trouble for it.And you said, you know what?
This is really good.I'm going to take this.And then he starts kind of losing his powers and his abilities.There's a reporter who catches on and Mike wants to interview him.
And he tells a whole lie about being, he's given up law and now he's pursuing being a doctor. What?That's so far out there.That's just such a verifiable lie that's so dumb.
You're sitting in class and your teacher's like, oh, who has, you know, she's going around collecting homework.And you haven't gotten that far.So you're like, it's in my book bag.Go get it. You know, I didn't think of the next step.Yeah.
You're just trying to survive the convo, you know, speaking of next steps, you've got all of this money that you're generating and people are coming to you and they're asking you to do stuff with money.
What do you do if you, uh, if you're Paul and you've got some ideas?Well, what, let's say you're married and you've got a girlfriend too, and your girlfriend,
you and your girlfriend have a condo and you also own a restaurant called Isabella's and it's, you know, somewhere there in Jersey.Now look, I haven't spent much time in Jersey except for Elizabeth.I've spent some time over there just through an ex.
And one thing I know, There are so many amazing restaurants in that part.There's this one area right in New Jersey there where it's like the best restaurants you've ever been to, at least in my opinion.
Sometimes they're surprised if you walk in.
Yeah, that's the thing.Some of them are doing other stuff, not just making great food.They're like, hey, wouldn't You have a flu?
Oh, yeah.We got a couple of spots like that in Atlanta.But folks, if you have traveled to the right places or the wrong places, you know what we're talking about.
Jinx, what Matt's referencing to something that came up a little while ago on our show, because oddly enough, you know, the the common trope for this is if you catch yourself in one of those restaurants on a good day, service is going to be kind of slow and confused.
But it's often really good food, too, which is the devil's bargain in the whole thing.You know what I mean?
Yeah, you're like, hey, if they raid this place, you know.We used to have that just living in Atlanta, you know, where you're like, you go in the corner store, you're like, corner store or drug fraud?Like, which one?
You know, like nothing's on the shelves, like nothing.
There's dust on the candy bars.
Yeah, you're just like, all right, guys, like, you got to do what you got to at least get in the act of it.Like, you know, you have like some zebra cakes over here, Skittles, something like, you know, like something.
But yeah, man, um, wait, now I'm talking about food.
Oh, Isabella.Isabella.Yolanda.How do you wash your money?
I mean, one, it's like, definitely get rid of New York Confidential Inc.Like, that just feels so obvious.But I think it's that other thing, too, that makes Paul a true criminal is like,
I don't know if he ever expressed wanting to get out the game, but you do need an exit plan.Granted, he's under Rico charge.So like anything he touches is like not it's it's a wrap.But, you know, to restart law.Yeah.
Like everything you touch there, it's just a big fishing net over everything you've got going and whoever else you've given money to, especially if they're in your if they're within your employee.But a restaurant, sure.
But then you can't go there and like then continue to do drug deals and make hits.Like a laundromat, it needs to be a laundromat.You can't then be like, hey, it's a laundromat, and also like it's a drug front.
You're missing the point by laundering your money.You're just buying more property.
Yeah, Sean said when they eventually went in there, there were like kilos of cocaine just in the back of the restaurant.
It's like, hey man, this is to distract them, not to... Now you've got an address, you've got an LLC, what the f*** is wrong with you?Why are you doing this?
It was called Isabella's International Restaurant Incorporated.
Confidential.But also, what a great name.It's like Bada Bing, Isabella's... I haven't seen it, but I can just see it written in script.
So that little Italy script.Yeah.And because he keeps because he is doing this thing that continually pushing the envelope.Right.He's also we could say he's also playing some heavy mental parkour, a lot of rationalization for.
how he will make this feel reasonable, right?We don't really have an exit plan.We're just swimming further, further into the open ocean of crime.It is inevitable that this guy will get caught.It is an unsustainable, untenable plan.
So we talked about, you know, coming in to check out Isabella's, encountering kilos of cocaine, Would you say this is when stuff starts to go wrong for him?Is this where the teacher asked for his backpack?
Yeah, and I think this is where he's, uh, it's that moment where you're digging through your backpack.Forget even doing your homework anymore.You're just like, I gotta do, I need a better line.Like I need something better than this, you know?
But yeah, man, he's, you know, things start to unravel and this is where like they're catching him.Not just like, I mean, he's on tape.I think this is where his role again of winning I was talking to a musical artist recently.
They were talking about longevity and how they have to switch their careers up and how they start out doing one thing and how they look for other things in their career to sustain themselves.I was asking them, hey, does winning hurt that process?
If you were selling out arenas or if you had a certain type of song you were making and people loved it, is it hard to move on? You know, Green Bay, when they've got like Brett Favre, he's still selling jerseys, but they're not winning games.
And you got this quarterback on the bench, Darren Rogers, do you let him in?You know, Tom Brady, you know, it's like, he had a great game.But I'm sure there was heavy conversation between like, do we? Do we let Bledsoe back in?This guy won one game.
How do you make the justification against the thing that was serving you versus where you need to go?So I give those like metaphors and parallels to Paul because Paul has won, right?Especially in his world and in his mind, he's won.
And he's won by, you know, representing people within court.He's won by sort of his favors and manipulating all these different institutions and crews.
I think that's what sort of emboldens him and makes him think that he's going to be fine no matter what.I mean, this dude, like, represented himself in court.Oh, boy.
What's that old Mark Twain quote, right?A fool for an attorney.Yeah.Oh, man.I still think, you know, that's I don't want to sound too crass about it, but that is so damn ballsy.
You know, like that is something other criminals in this echelon themselves will not do.
But he has been rewarded for that in his world, right?So it's like this reward system.He's been winning. Playing this quarterback and now the game's asked for him to do something different and he's like nah I'm not I'm not gonna bench this play.
I'm not gonna bench this approach.
This is gonna work for me You know, I went triple platinum doing this I'm not gonna try a different style like he's and everyone's saying don't do this He has help, you know like people feel like indebted to him and you can't imagine the people that are within his yoke right that feel like I'm gonna help Paul right people that like it could be career suicide and and and
They don't even have to really worry about it because Paul's worst enemy is himself.And you don't know what you were saying at the beginning.It's like his desire to win.And also like, not just win because now I'm like evolving the thoughts.
Not even just him, the win.He needs to win.It needs to be Paul.You know, it can't be someone else that wins.And he goes, because I don't know if he would have gotten away.I don't see a way he would have.
I don't know, ended up in Supermax for AC-10.Yeah.He doesn't want to set the record for assist.No, no, no.
I don't want to spoil too much, but just, I want to bring this up too, because we're talking about the, the trials that he ends up being in.Paul ends up being in where he's the guy that everybody's looking at.He's the defendant and he does have help.
Like I think, I think you talk about John, who's a fellow attorney who helps him.And then Larry, who's a criminal defense attorney who helps him as well.But.
Uh, before all that stuff, there's the main trial, the first trial that our FBI agent finally, and you know, everybody that she's working with is finally going to prosecute Paul for this.
I think it's a murder charge or an attempted or a conspiracy to murder.I don't know exactly what the charge was.
But the crazy thing I just want to talk to you about is how on earth did the judge decide, the people on the law side, decide to just go to trial about the homicide rather than all of the criminal activity together?
Because I think they said, yeah, they told the FBI agent, you can't talk about anything except for this murder.
they limited the scope.Yeah.So, and again, that's like this, that's really makes you start to poke holes in this legal system, which in so many ways creates a Paul, right?Like he gets his power from this institution.
If he were, you know, laying bricks somewhere, or I don't know, like a football coach, like would he be able to manifest his power?Maybe this thing is in most people, but we can't access it, right?
That's another thing about like crime is opportunity, right?Like the ability to go do it and people that like
you doing that so we talk about these like huge you know criminal you know fortune five hundred ceos and you know the one percent are moving things around.
Any opportunity to do that you need systems that play that you can't fight you are to do it in our city's legal loopholes etc but like you ultimately need the runway to take off and.That to me is a perfect example of how like.
how confusing and flawed this system is with archaic ideas of what makes sense to the point where they're all actually working against each other, but also working in concert with each other in a really weird way.
Pushing each other too, like enabling.I think that's a brilliant point.The system demands a pull.
And when you get to it, it's like, okay, if the system demands this, what does it ask of Sean, right?What does it ask of the FBI?You know, there was like heavy conversations we were making this of like, you know, is Sean a good character, right?
Is she a good person?It's like, that's her job. Okay, but like, why does that job exist?You know, or I remember one time I was waiting on the subway with my boy.
And, you know, they're like the undercover cops in New York City are always funny because they're always wearing this very cliched outfit.It's always like sports jersey, nighties, you know, like baseball cap turned backwards, and I'm like, all right.
Is that real, Jinx?You can kind of point them out?You can tell.
They're the guy from the 90s.Yeah, exactly.
But what if that's just how I dress, Jinx, and I just like walking around New York like that?
Eventually, you'll become a cop.And you'll be untouchable.Actually, the secret way to get by undercover cops is to dress like an undercover cop.You have to kind of meet them where they're at.
You know, it's like it's like my boy was like, yo, I feel like undercover cops.I feel like that's cheating.And I was like, man. You know, like I never, never even engaged with that idea before.He's like, I feel like that's not fair.
Like they should be cops and everyone, and the people should be criminals.And I was like, all right, but what this system asks you to do.And for Sean, you know, it's like, she gets a chemo.
So either having a gun on you or being connected to drug sales is illegal or is what in this case, chemo now becomes a tool in the system.
Sure, that's her job, but like, why is there a job where chemo doesn't just serve time and present him with options where like, okay, we're done in what, five years, three years, two years, whatever it was, if that's the crime and that's the time.
okay, you know, that's a whole other argument, but now he's a player in your system and there's no world that this ends up well for him.
Isn't it the same on either side?Like whether or not you end up in Paul's sphere of influence or the FBI's sphere of influence, you are continually getting played by a system and now you are just an integral part of that system.
No, excuse me, you are a tiny part of that system and not integral at all to its functioning because anybody else could be you in that scenario.
Cars still need gas, regardless of which direction they're driving.
It is.They're fuel for the system in both.And when you really think about it, neither system that what it portrays to do is doing what it does like.So you're supposed to in these like drug dealers that are like taking over the city.
But chemo is a worthy cost.Is he not a citizen of the city like, you know, like or Paul is supposed to be representing, you know, his client.But in the world of that, the client who stabbed his wife, you know, I forget the guy's name.
But you know, he stabs his wife, so she's already been a victim.The daughter gets caught up because he manipulates the daughter at a young age to testify against the mom.It's like there's no, no one's doing what they say they're doing, right?
I'm like watching the news and it's all these like FDA rollbacks and like, they're like, all these sort of issues with food.And I was just like, man, like this, like, let's say X, Y, Z restaurants have been selling us burgers.
what they're killing people or they're unhealthy.It's like you're now, the moment that happens, this is wrong.We're like, you sell us tires and the tires are like stripping on the road.
Like the moment this happens, you are not competing the mission at hand.
goes back to the original point from earlier, the mission at hand is winning, not making the safest tires or the burgers that are edible or getting people, arresting people for their crimes or getting people off of outside of the legal, like, you know, yoke.
It's just winning, you know?
For the record, that's the Velez family, right?Yes.We're talking about the stabbing.Yes.Caroline Velez.And Jinx here, we obviously want to go further in depth, but we don't want to spoil too much of the show.
As you can tell, folks, Matt Knoll and yours truly, going by Ben for these purposes, we have listened to the show. deep into this.
And I think one of the most fascinating things that we've we've encountered in this conversation is a deeper exploration.Like we're philosophical at this point about how the system is created.The show is available.
Now, wherever you find your favorite podcast, as we say, jinx, we have to ask you, what do you hope people take away from criminal attorney?
Man, I think that like true crime in itself is evolving, right?Like I think it's like before it was sort of like a find the bad guy or when you watch a, even like if you watch like Dahmer, right?It's like he's one bad guy, right?
And everyone's like trying to find this person to catch them and know he's the bad guy, but like you have to find them.I think as true crime is evolving, you're finding that there's much more, I think you guys used the word gradient earlier.
There's much more shades of gray, right?There's so many more people that are involved that criminals run in league with each other, even if they're on opposite sides of the table.
You know, this show, you know, thinking about the show I did prior to this, which is Conviction, and then this one, Criminal Attorney, I realized like how, you know how it's like HBO, I do like a spinoff series, like I'm gonna do Game of Thrones, I'm gonna do House of Dragons.
If you have a show, like you find one subject in true crime, it's probably a spinoff of characters that are related to that crime, just because like, okay, we caught the bad guy, all right, next season, what did you do to catch him?
You know, so I think, I hope people see that, that like crime is not a binary.It's a, it's, it's a spectrum, you know, and like how we justify where we sit on that spectrum, especially when we're, we're on opposite sides of it, you know.Wow.
Well, it's been a tremendous pleasure talking to you, Jinx.I really appreciate all the work you've done.Great times.It does make me just worried.
This show just makes me worried.I don't know.I mean, I don't know.I just like... This is what we're all doing.All right, cool.
Let's go to New Jersey.Yeah, that's the other thing.It's like, this show should make you book a trip to go to Newark, New Jersey.But no, it does.
The shows are entertaining, but if you're like me, I know my recording producer is a man named Chris, and he's excellent to work with.But Chris, I was like, Chris, we're tacking 20 minutes on every session, so I can like,
share my fears, you know, just like we're living in a wild world, you know.
Mm hmm.And we have only touched on very briefly some of your many other projects.Jinx, we've got to say for anybody who has somehow been under a rock, you do a lot of stuff.We didn't even mention rap caviar.
We haven't even talked about the what is Terminators, the Terminator high.Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.I was. looking at those as well.Where can people go to learn more about your work in addition to criminal attorney?
Man, if you are, sounds weird, just like I kind of jumped all these different things.I'd like was telling someone the day I was like, I'm not like a cowboy, like ride in town, you know, I do my thing.And then I just ride off to the next town.
But um, yeah, it feels kind of sad to say Instagram, you know, like, find me on Instagram. But yeah, you can find my Instagram at Brandon Jinx, B-R-A-N-D-O-N-G-I-N-X.If you are older than 24, you can actually use a website and it's Brandon-Jinx.com.
But yeah, I try to just bounce around and pick up the phone when people call and get to do exciting stuff like this.
What a ride, folks.Criminal Attorney by Wondery, available now wherever you find your favorite shows.We're not blowing smoke.Jinx does many, many things.
And I have to say, I was tremendously impressed with the philosophical caliber of our conversation.
Well, and the generosity of him and his thoughts and his time, given how much stuff he does have going on.So certainly kudos for that.And we really appreciate you joining us, Jinx. Oh, yeah.
Hey, if you want to do your own research after listening to criminal attorney, which is from Wondery, by the way, search for Paul Paul W. Bergrin, which is kind of a weird thing to start saying as you like first say it out loud.
It's spelled B-E-R-G-R-I-N.
And if you want to see some more recent projects from our friend Jinx, check out Black Twitter, A People's History.There's so much more to this story of Paul Bergrin, and there's so much more to the conversation.
We'd love to have Jinx back on in the future.In the meantime, we'd love to have you join the show, folks.We try to be easy through email, through telephone.You can even find us online, not to flex.
Yes, join us online, where you can find us to handle conspiracy stuff, where we exist on YouTube with video content galore for your perusing enjoyment, as well as X, FKA Twitter, not to mention Facebook, or we have our Facebook group.
Here's where it gets crazy.Join up today.On Instagram and TikTok, however, we are ConspiracyStuffShow.
Hey, wanna call us?Our number is 1-833-STD-WYTK.When you call in, keep it confidential.No, I'm just joking.When you call in, give yourself a cool nickname.And let us know if we can use your name and message on the air.
If you've got more to say than can fit in a three-minute voicemail, why not instead send us a good old-fashioned email?We are...
The entities that read every single piece of correspondence we receive.We love it when you write to us.Give us the links.Give us the pictures.Take us to the edge of the rabbit hole.We'll do the rest.Be well aware yet unafraid.
Sometimes the void writes back.We'll say on a side note, I do owe some people a lot of emails and we're on it.Also apologies to paint huffing maniacs.That makes sense for one person. But there are many, many more adventures to explore.
We need your help.Join us out here in the dark.Conspiracy at IHeartRadio.com.
Stuff They Don't Want You to Know is a production of iHeart Radio.For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ready to unleash the power of 4K?Vizio's 4K TV collection has you covered, with sizes ranging from 43 inches all the way up to a jaw-dropping 86-inch screen.
Experience stunning clarity like never before, bringing your favorite shows and movies to life.And with Watch Free Plus built in, you'll enjoy free live and on-demand TV right out of the box.
You can even stream your favorite songs with the iHeartRadio app, ready to go on every Vizio 4K TV.Upgrade your entertainment.Head to Walmart to find your Vizio 4K TV today.
Is getting gas at Shell burning a hole in your wallet?What if I told you you can easily earn cash back while you fill up?Introducing Drop, the app that turns every fill up into a reward.
With Drop, you'll earn points to get free gift cards every time you fill up your tank.Download Drop and use code DROP88 to instantly receive $5 in points to jumpstart your savings journey.
Don't miss out on turning your gas expenses into something rewarding.
You've almost certainly been prescribed a medication before, but did you understand how it worked?The way your medication works in your body shouldn't be a mystery.
Learn how Vivgart-Hytrulo, Efgartigamod Alpha, and Hyaluronidase QVFC works by visiting vivgart.com slash MOA.That's V-Y-V-G-A-R-T dot com slash MOA.Brought to you by Argenix.
Starbucks Iced Apple Crisp Oat Milk Shaken Espresso.Made with blonde espresso, creamy oat milk, and spiced apple flavors.It's an icy crisp sip you can enjoy all autumn long.Order ahead on the Starbucks app.
You ever get that feeling like the concrete jungle's closing in?You crave wide open spaces, the chance to chase your own dinner, or just breathe clean air.Well, listen up.
There's a whole world out there waiting, and finding your piece of it just got easier.Head over to land.com.They've got ranches, forests, mountains, you name it.Search by acreage, price, location.They've got it all.
No matter what kind of wild dream you're chasing, land.com can help you find the ground to make it a reality.So quit dreaming.Head over to land.com, find your open space, and get out there.
Sign in
