Everyone can write, but not everyone can write copy.
Hello, I'm Neil Perkin, the host of Think with Google Firestarters.And Firestarters is a series of insightful conversations with the interested and interesting of the marketing, advertising, and innovation communities.
And today, I'm lucky enough to be speaking with the brand, toner voice, and copy consultant, Vicky Ross.So Vicky has worked with global category-leading brands for about 25 years. showing them how to talk and also agencies how to write.
She's done this with a wide range of global clients including Sky and ITV, Spotify, Adidas, Canline to name a few.She's been named as a top 30 female creative leader by Creative Equals and also the Dots
named her as one of the top 100 trailblazers redefining the creative industry.So Vicky, delighted to have you on Firestarters.Welcome.Can I ask straight away, what is your provocation for the Firestarters audience, please?
Yes, hello, thank you so much for having me.My provocation is everyone can write, but not everyone can write copy.
And I say that because there are techniques to keep people reading, to make copy flow, to speed it up, to slow it down, to push ideas, to pull people in, to keep things interesting, to make people feel something, to make them do something.
I think people underestimate the intention that copywriters write with.There's a reason for the way we write what we write, for our choice of words, what we say and what we don't say, and how we set up sentences.
And not everyone knows these things, and it shows.A copy can get sloppy, long, waffly, with no point or no end point, just words that don't do anything for anyone.And what a waste of an audience's time, a brand's reputation, and a business's money.
Yeah, lots to talk about there.I'd love to get your views on tone of voice, and brand guidelines, and brand books, and so on, and just the ways in which brands can tackle this.
But that thought about how not everyone can write copy, do you tend to find that it's something which marketers can generally think that they can do, and so they can actually do it themselves rather than actually employ copywriters to do that?
Yeah, absolutely.Because everybody writes something every day, everyone thinks that they can write anything, like, how hard can it be?
But I don't know of any other creative job where a marketer reviews, well, sorry, a client, we doesn't need to be as specific as a marketer, but where a client reviews work with the intention to change it,
rather than accepting what's being presented to them.I mean, sure, give feedback.No one knows a product, a brand or a business better than the person briefing the copywriter to write about it.
But let the copywriter do the bit that they know, the writing.So the client should provide the what and the copywriter creates the why.
OK, brilliant.So let's take a step back and just think from the top about the kind of foundations, I suppose, of good copywriting.
And I suppose I'd like to start really with the idea of what a brand stands for and how you actually define what its purpose is, what its personality is.So what would be the process that you would go through to do that in a really good way?
Well, I find that the answer to any question around creativity is usually it depends.So it depends on the brand.The process should be as unique as the brand.
So sometimes it's a series of interviews and brainstorms and workshops with everyone around the business.Sometimes it's working with the founder to define their voice that becomes the voice of the brand.
And sometimes it's understanding all the strategy work that's already been created.
whatever the process is the answer already exists somewhere so it's a case of digging deep and finding what that answer is and then it's defining that voice in typically in adjectives that are called principles that give everyone something to really go on so
you know typically some brands will say that they're human friendly and honest, but what brand isn't?
I mean there are some that aren't any of these things but that's on purpose like Liquid Death for example, but that's because they know who they are and how they want to show up, which is what all brands should do.
So if they really look into who they are, where they've come from, what their intentions are, they'll find stronger adjectives to describe their personality and tone of voice than bland things like human friendly and honest.
Yes, it's an interesting way of putting it, actually, because you do hear that sort of human-friendly and honest quite a lot, don't you?
So I suppose there's something going wrong there, isn't there, if brands are ending up talking about themselves as being human-friendly or honest because they are relatively sort of catch-all, sort of generalistic words.
So what's going wrong that they're ending up in that place rather than being distinctive or differentiated or finding something which is really core to what they stand for?
I think there's a number of reasons why a brand might come to describe themselves as those three adjectives, or other things like dedicated, and passionate, and trustworthy, and just more words that don't define one brand from another.
I think one reason is time.People don't have the time to invest in understanding what they're doing and what they want to do better.It could be budget.They don't have the money to employ somebody else who can
take a fresh look from the outside and define them or just generally not realising that having a brand personality and a tone of voice is a thing that will work for them and so they don't trust in the process or go about doing it in the first place.
Because what's wrong with being human friendly and honest, really?I mean, who wouldn't want to be any of those?But yeah, as a creative, for example, doesn't really give me much to go on if I now need to write on behalf of the brand.
And that's all I've got to describe them.
Yeah, that makes sense.And I suppose I want to talk a bit about purpose as well, actually, because particularly over the last couple of years, purpose has become this thing which brands, every brand feels like they should have a purpose.
And so they're looking for something that they can get behind.So talk to me a bit about the rules of good brand purpose.Where does it come from?And how can they really get behind something which is meaningful?
Well, every brand should have a purpose, but I'm not talking about the purpose that has been repositioned as a real buzzword in the last few years, which is standing for something good.Obviously, it is good if a brand stands for something good.
But whenever I'm talking about a brand purpose, I'm talking about
what their purpose is in life like what if they were a person what are they getting out of bed in the morning to do what is it that they sell or offer or what problem do they solve so yeah what's their reason for being that's what I mean by brand purpose and every company has one of those because they wouldn't have started otherwise like um Nike started because uh I think it was Phil Knight didn't find running shoes comfortable uh so he wanted to make his own
Or Richard Branson started Virgin Atlantic because he thought there should be a fun airline to fly with.I agree with him.And there's another example I usually go to.Oh yeah, The Gap.
That started with a married couple who thought it should be easy to go shopping for a pair of jeans.So yeah, there's always a reason for a brand existing that is their purpose.
And then how does that link through to personality then?Because personality is a very different thing, of course.The two might be connected and interrelated, but they are different things.So how do you relate a personality to a purpose?
So if you find what your purpose is, you then have to think about who you're providing that purpose to.So what do your audience do?What do they want from you?What are your competitors doing?What does the category look like?
All of these things will help you find things to be or not to be.And that will help you create a personality.So it will be, you know, this is my purpose and this is who I'm talking to, but how do I want to talk to them?And how do I want to show up?
Like what's going to look different? in that category compared with others.And it's interesting, I think, working with category leaders, because so often, they're concerned about what their competitors are doing, as they should be.
But sometimes to the point where they want to copy what their competitors say or do.And I just think it's so crazy, because as category leaders, it's on you to lead the way.Yes, be
aware of what your competitors are up to, of course, but you need to stand apart and you don't want anyone getting you confused.You don't want anyone reading copy from you and thinking it's from somebody else.
I always tell clients that, you know, the way you respect your logo, you should respect your tone of voice in the same way.You use your logo on everything, so you should use your voice in everything too.
Yeah it's a nice analogy.I think it's interesting isn't it because it's quite hard to sort of quantify and make it tangible things like tone of voice and you know but you know when you see a good one and you know when you see a distinctive one.
So as I say copywriter how would you actually bring to life a tone of voice to reflect a personality?
Just on the knowing what's a good one, what isn't a good one and it's hard to measure it, social media I find is one of the best places to go to for this sort of thing because it's a free focus group.
You don't have to pay anyone or give anyone sandwiches.
you know there's this ongoing narrative that no one reads and no one's interested in what brands have to say but people are actively going on social media to find a brand to see what they're saying and so brands can have a look at how their posts are performing with likes and retweets and also reading what their followers are saying in reply to them.
So yeah there is a way of finding out if it's working or not.I try if possible to make
tone of voice principles that I create be the same words as the personality principles that may already exist or that I'm also creating because the personality informs how a brand looks as well and I find that the more words you have going around a business the harder it is for anyone to align with them and to be consistent in everything
The more the words are the same that describe a personality and a look and feel and a voice, the more consistent the brand is likely to be.
Also, adjectives, which is the typical go-to for creating tone of voice principles, it could be a phrase, it could be a mood, but typically it's adjectives.Lots of people have lots of different interpretations for what each word might mean to them.
So we have to be really clear on what the meaning is for the brand, it can cause some confusion.So your guidelines have to be so effective in describing what each word means in terms of practical execution.
I'm going to say it's easy, it's quite easy for a copywriter to describe how a voice sounds but it's another thing for someone to describe how you execute on that word.So now I'm going to show myself up as not being very good at explaining things.
But for example, if you were to say, Nike's tone of voice is bold.That's great.I think we all know what that means.But as a writer, when you come to write in a bold tone of voice, how do you go about it?
You have to give practical guidance on things like write short, sharp statements rather than long, romantic sentences.That's a bold voice.
They write in capital letters often, but they don't say things like by now in capital letters, which can appear shouty.They say really motivating, bold things, and the capital letters enhances that feeling.So it looks bold as well as sounds bold.
Yeah, that's a really interesting sort of addition that the idea of how it looks being as important as what you're actually saying, I suppose, and how you say it.
So I think probably this leads us on to talking a bit about brand books and the whole idea of brand books. You did a wonderful presentation online, which is available online, called Bland Book, which is just all the things not to do in this area.
So tell me a bit about how a brand book can really articulate what you're saying there and ensure that kind of consistency that you're talking about.
Well, so just quickly, the Bland Book is a parody, in case anyone isn't sure.And people might not be sure, because it looks like so many brand books I've seen, which is why I wrote it.It's a really great example of what not to do.
But to write a good one, in my opinion, is every page, from the first page to the last page, should be in the brand's tone of voice for a start.We shouldn't save the tone of voice bits to the tone of voice bits.
The people reading a brand book need to see a tone of voice in action in everything.And then that lends itself to the tone of voice being used in everything in reality.
So often you'll be in meetings where someone will say, oh, we don't need to use the tone of voice in this bit.And then that's where you lose consistency for the brand. you need to use your voice in everything.
So yes, tone of voice in everything from the start to finish, really bring a brand story to life.
I'm so lucky to work with big entertainment brands, like I worked with IMAX last year, for example, and to have permission to be entertaining in even something like a brand book or brand guidelines, it just is an opportunity to get everyone excited about the brand.
And then typically a copywriter knows how to write in a brand's tone of voice.
It's everybody else that needs more of the guidance because they're reviewing copy, they're signing it off, they need to know that what they're seeing is what they're looking for.So often what a brand voice isn't is more helpful than what it is.
So showing the difference between right and wrong or befores and afters.
I don't really like doing befores and afters because I feel the people who wrote the befores could be offended and it's not necessary to be negative but if it's to show an evolution then obviously it is helpful.
And then other things are useful like practical top tips on
geeky things like where to put full stops and whether you use exclamation marks or not, how you show up on social media, is your voice different from one channel to another, and if a brand has a keyword or phrase that is really useful.
So I'm talking things like Kit Kat says break, Disney says magic, Oreo says dunk,
If at any point anyone is writing on behalf of the brand and for whatever reason cannot be on brand in everything that they say, just by putting a key word or phrase in will instantly connect the consumer back to the brand, especially if you've been using that word consistently over decades like the brands I've mentioned have.
It seems to be like the more specific you can be about the tangible ways in which you write and the words you use, the adjectives you use and so on, the better.
But it also feels as though it's the kind of thing which could be, is in danger of being quite vague, I suppose.And just using kind of adjectives which actually don't lead on to any kind of real guidance about how to do it.Do you see that a lot?
Yeah, so the client I've been working with most recently, it's a huge company and throughout the process we've done so many exploratory calls across everybody, with everybody across the business and what's come out loud and clear is they all know who the brand is and what they think good looks like but the minute I distilled anything down into an adjective
are lost people because different words mean different things to different people.
And some guidelines, although you have to explain what each word means for the voice, some guidelines can go on and on and on and be amazing for a copywriter to really get into the depths of everything.
But a company like that, it became clear to me that they needed really quick guidance that was instant.
And so I took away all the adjectives, and I've written a paragraph that describes the tone of voice for their brand, just one paragraph for this major brand.And then I followed it up with
10 top tips per sub-brand as to how you bring the voice to life in each instance.And that has been really effective for them, because the people who are signing off the copy don't have time to read guidelines that are hundreds of pages long.
They need to get it quickly, and they need to be able to communicate it with each other quickly, too.You know, you'd be in creative reviews or sign-off meetings and go, is this X, yes, or no.
And yeah, you just want things to be, I always want things to be quick and easy for my clients.I think copywriting can be easy if you know how.
So I try to make it feel easy for everyone so that they actually do it rather than, yeah, us ending up with lots of brands having lots of different voices because they haven't aligned internally.
And I suppose, going back to what you were saying before about consistency, one thing that strikes me here is that consistency needs to run across everything that is really representing the brand, I guess.
And there was a nice example, actually, I saw you mention in one of your other pieces about, I think it was Virgin Holidays, and the way in which they use their call to action buttons, I think.So just even buttons on a website can make a difference.
So tell me a bit more about how you make that happen. you know, not just the obvious places where you're writing copy, but just all the way through the kind of brand presence.
Well, I think every opportunity is an opportunity to show off your brand call to action buttons.For example, everyone knows what they are now.We all know how to use the Internet, and we all know how to buy something or find out more.
So the more we can include our brand personality and everything, the more we resonate with who we're talking to.We don't want any part of our output, to feel like somebody else has written it.
And another good example is some brands write their careers pages in their tone of voice, you know, the bit that you think, oh, no, that's where we have to be, I don't know, professional or not on brand, or Channel 4,
and Oatly, they write their annual reports in their tone of voice, you know, it just shows real dedication to the brand.
And I guess you just don't want to be in any situation where someone's looking at what you're saying and not knowing it's you, even in what might be seen as the boring bits or the things that don't matter.
And yeah, as I said, all these things add up to making a brand what it is.
I suppose, and just to build on that, the idea of personality and a brand having a personality is quite a tricky thing to kind of get your head around in some ways.
And I suppose if you, the risk is if you get it wrong, it comes across as just being completely inauthentic.It just doesn't land at all.So how do you, to go back to that sort of earlier conversation we were having,
How do you make sure that the personality you've got is kind of authentic, it just lands well with the brand, it fits the brand, but also then you've got the consistency in the way in which you're bringing the personality to life?
For some people, it's easy to imagine the brand as a person.Everyone's different.I don't know why I find this exercise quite cringy.
But for some people who aren't familiar with creating a brand personality, it's a really easy way for them to understand that a brand can talk like a person.And then they understand that they're having a conversation with their audience.
And by aligning with a person that people might know quite well, they can think about what that person would say and how they would say it, and that helps you be consistent.
The reason we need a personality for a brand, whether it's pretending that it's a real person or not, is because we need our audience to find a way to get to know us as brands and decide if they like us and want to spend time with us and if they want to buy from us.
And yeah, I'm obviously talking in the realms of my world, Some people could argue that people like a brand because they like the product they create.
Yes, you might start with a brand because of the product that you bought from them, but what keeps you going back to them apart from the effectiveness of the product is the way that the brand talks to you.
So one of the things that I looked at as part of the research for this was a podcast by Harry Dry, the copywriter, who said some really interesting things about copywriting.
So zooming in now more specifically on copywriting, I'd just like to ask you a bit about this, because I know you also like his work. So he said about omission and simplification.
So basically he was talking a lot about taking things out rather than adding things in.So, for example, he said a great sentence is a good sentence made shorter.
So tell me a bit about why that is so important as a copywriter to simplify and to look to take stuff out rather than put stuff in.
Firstly, I urge anyone listening or watching to go and find Harry Dry and his marketing examples and to watch the podcast you're talking about.He explains copywriting techniques like nobody else I know and he makes it really easy.
His version, I call that making every word count.Every word has to have a reason for being in the copy that you're writing.We need to respect our audience's time and attention and tell them something that they want to know.
which isn't always what we want them to know.Those two things aren't always the same things.And the quicker you can do that with words that count, the more effective your message is going to be.
There's going to be no words that get in the way or leave anything open to interpretation or just end up, you know, going off somewhere that isn't going to do anything for the brand or the story. I think it's also a style thing as well, I suppose.
I really don't like writing long copy.I'm not very good at it.I'm much better at short copy.I love editing.And the more you edit, the more you realise what it is that you need to say.There are always words you can take out.
And do you think, because there was a lovely couple of quotes actually, which he mentioned, I think one was Kaplan's law of words, I think it was, which was any word that isn't working for you is working against you.
And he also says like about paragraphs, like, you know, a paragraph is ready to ship when there's nothing left to remove.It's like a Jenga tower, the entire thing should collapse if you remove something.
So, I mean, lovely way of framing it, but I think probably the thing that struck me about that is it's quite a sort of ruthless approach.It's like, you know, you really have to make sure every single word is working for you.
So, is that more the case perhaps in short-form copy than it is long-form copy, or is it the case with everything?
It's the case with everything, probably, I don't want to say one's more important than the other, but probably long copy is more important because you're trying to hold someone's attention for longer.
So the more words that you have in the way of what you're trying to say, well, firstly, the thing's going to be longer, but also it's going to end up going nowhere and leave people sort of unclear as to what we want them to do as a result of reading what we say.
By the way, just a note on just because I don't like long copy doesn't mean that, you know, we shouldn't write any.
There's lots of amazing long copy out there and the whole people don't read and they definitely wouldn't read a long copy ad isn't true because, well, firstly, people read something all the time on their phone and secondly, people will read for as long as they are interested, which then goes back to making sure every word counts in what you're saying.
And the more focused you are on finding the words that count, the richer a story you would tell.
Yeah it's an interesting point because I was actually about to ask about whether you think kind of long copy is sort of we've moved on from it and whether the attention spans perhaps mean that we should all be focused much more on short copy but you don't think that's the case now?
Definitely not.I mean, when you walk down the street, you're practically walking into people because they're looking at something on their phone.And yeah, there might be a video, but people are reading stuff all the time.
And I think a long copy ad in a busy newspaper, for example, that's full of negative news is a breath of fresh air.
Yeah, I guess I'm thinking about some of the famous kind of Bill Burnback sort of long copy ads from, you know, 50s, 60s.
And actually, really, a lot of ads seem to kind of be focusing much more on short copy and sort of grabby headlines and things that are focused on short attention spans.
But you think there's a real opportunity for brands perhaps to use long copy more?
I absolutely do.I think that there are a number of reasons why we don't have a huge amount of long copy ads like we did in Bill Burnback's day.And some of those reasons might be, A, not everyone's hiring a copywriter.
So a non-copywriter would never be able to write an effective long copy ad.And also, no one's got any money.So there's an issue with if you write something
lengthy you then have to spend money on having it translated effectively if you're a global brand.So yeah there are just two of the hurdles I would say get in the way of long copy.
Plus like I said the narrative that no one reads which isn't true you know we need to stop that so that people remember that they do.
And I'd love to ask you as well, actually, because before we leave Harry Dry, he discussed three laws of copywriting, which I'd love to get your point of view on.So the first one was make it concrete.The next one was make it visual.
And the next one was make it falsifiable, which is a really interesting one. So first of all taking Make It Concrete and I think there were some examples in it but about how lots of brands can be quite abstract and not specific enough.
So tell me a bit more about what your understanding of that is and why that is so important.
Yeah, I feel like I shouldn't be answering on behalf of Harry, especially when he has put so much work into coming up with all these formulas and principles that he shares, but making it concrete is another way of saying, will the copy pass the so what test or who cares test?
if you're just saying something, like the TV companies I work with, for example, if ever they say, oh, we've got an amazing new drama coming out next week, I'm like, anyone can say it's amazing.That's not concrete.Can they say it's award winning?
Can they say it's original?And for me, I'm always looking for the facts over the adjectives, because facts are true.Adjectives you can debate, or that's an opinion.You can't have an opinion on facts, because they're facts.
and they make things much more interesting and more believable.What's the second one?
We're making it visual I think he talks about which was really about I think memorability so if you visualize if you're able to visualize something by reading it and you can then visualize it then you're a lot more likely to remember it.
So have you got any kind of examples of how you might do that perhaps?
Yeah so context is really important and I mean we all know to paint a picture is to help people imagine what we're saying or imagine themselves using a product or getting involved in a brand in some way.
For me though, oh, and sorry, and context is everything.So thinking about where you're talking to your audience and what they're doing and how what you're talking about will fit within their lifestyle.
But I think it's, for me, it would be more than that.I like to paint a picture with how the words look as well as what they say.So I love repeating sounds in words.They make a sentence flow more easily.
They look easy on the eye when words look the same. You can play with full stops to emphasise a message, capital letters we talked about with Nike.
So yeah, there are lots of ways to visually play with your writing, your words, which isn't just creating a visual image, but also creating an image with each letter, which is quite techy and geeky, but part of the fun of being a copywriter.
And the third one, is it falsifiable?
Yeah, falsifiable was quite an interesting one, I thought, because he was talking about, you know, when you write something that's either true or false, you're kind of making people kind of sit up a bit and you're having a point of view about something.
So having it falsifiable is quite interesting.Tell me about that.
Well I'd say that everything should be, it should pass the falsify test because why else are you writing it?
There are a lot of words out there that are just words, not really saying anything and I think that is disrespectful to an audience and to your brand as well because
there is plenty that a brand can say and there's plenty that an audience wants to know so why waste anyone's time and money like I mentioned earlier just saying something when you could say something really specific and interesting and relevant.
And just to go back to the point that you were mentioning about in visualization, because you share loads of really good examples, I have to say, of campaigns that just really nail their copywriting or their straplines and so on, on social, on your feed.
And there was one particular example, a quite recent one, about Wimbledon, I think it was.And it was, I think they had the words always and never in there, but it was two opposing words.
And so they had the way they were positioned, it was just like, you know, you could see it.And it was an interesting way of actually not just having the two opposing words, but the way in which they had positioned them.
So is that really what you mean by actually the way in which you are presenting the words, not just the words themselves?
Yeah, yeah, totally.So that line is always like never before.And the way that the sentence is stacked is that it's always Like and never is underneath, so never before is underneath.
So you've got the always and the never on top, sorry, always on top of never.So yeah, playing with opposites is a really good technique, creating constructs and contradictions.It just makes the audience do a double take sometimes.
Some people like to feel rewarded that they have worked out what a line was intending to do rather than being told everything.
Actually my husband and I were talking about this sort of thing yesterday because a bus went past us with an advert for a new film with Matt Damon and Casey Affleck called The Instigators.The line is worst heist ever.
but it's worst full stop, highest full stop, ever full stop.And it's horizontal on a bus side, obviously.
And my husband, the non-copywriter, but having listened to me bang on about this sort of thing for so long, asked me if I thought it would be better and more impactful if each one word was stacked, if it was vertical.
Because I think you would take out the meaning of it, the sort of emphasis of it in a different way.Horizontally, you could just read it as worst, highest ever.And it doesn't really,
have the impact that they want it to have, whereas on top of, you know, vertically, you could create the space between each word in your mind.So worst heist ever.
Yeah, that's nice.And I mean, you do share quite some really lovely examples, actually, of good, good straplines, actually, I think, as well.So that being an example.
But tell me a bit about other characteristics of what makes for a good campaign strapline.
I guess it goes back a bit before what you're saying about depends, but how do you get it right as a copywriter to get a really compelling brand relevant strapline?
It does depend.Like, if you think about the extremes between Ron Seals does exactly what it says on the tin and Nike's just do it, Ron Seals does exactly what it says on the tin is a fact.It's quite a long sentence for a tagline.
Whereas Nike's just do it doesn't say anything about the product.It's a mood.It's capturing a motivating, sort of,
push to the to the customer I suppose, but one example I love sharing which I think gives a better answer to this question than the two I've just given you is Legos rebuild the world, for me I think it's just perfection because it's three words and the power of three has proven to be memorable
scientifically proven to be a memorable way to share messaging with an audience.It's a call to action, it's inviting people to do something, so it starts with a verb, not you can rebuild the world.
It's got a key word in there that is relevant to the brand of the product, so build, you always build something with Lego,
And then the world, Rebuild the World, it's big and talks to a person's imagination as to what they can do with the product, but it also speaks to the world about the state of the world at the same time.It does all of those things in three words.
It's beautiful, brilliant, I love it.
Yeah, that's a lovely example.Really, really nice.It leads me to think actually about, you know, how brands can really tie into what's topical, I suppose, and what's particularly relevant at the moment.
And there's lots of examples, of course, of brands sort of jumping onto trending topics and, you know, not quite getting it right, maybe, or actually doing it really well.
Tell me a bit about how you can write copy or you can just have a campaign which just picks up on that kind of zeitgeist or the topics or the feeling that people have at the moment in ways that are really meaningful.
I think it all comes down to what we were talking about at the top, which is knowing who you are as a brand and what your purpose is, because anything else will be inauthentic.
So Legos rebuild the world, as we were saying, I was talking about the state of the world, but it did it in a way that only Lego could say.
in a similar way Virgin Atlantic a couple of years ago their new campaign and slogan came out and the line was see the world differently and then the advert that accompanied it was lots of different people from different backgrounds and see the world is something that they could say full stop and then differently was talking about something that they wanted to jump into and change the narrative in the
conversation, I suppose.So, yeah, it's got to be relevant to the brand is the short answer.
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
And language, I'd like to ask about language as well, because are there occasions when brands might use language that would be perhaps used a lot internally inside the team or the organisation, but actually don't mean anything for customers, perhaps?
Yeah all the time.I don't know what it is about us going into work and I mean I do it still.
You know you go into work and you sit up and your shoulders go up to your ears and you think I've got to be formal because I'm at work and my email, I often rewrite my emails to clients or
We all sit in meetings and say things that we would never say in real life.
And we have to be careful in those conversations because someone hears something and thinks, because it's been said in a meeting, for example, it means it's okay for us to say externally.And I'm talking about, you know, office jargon, basically.
And why would you put anything like that into a communication with a consumer who doesn't talk in that way? One example, and this is one that I will fight to the death, but I mean it comes up all the time, is content.
So working with big entertainment brands, they are always talking about content.What content they're creating, where the content's going to go, what content platform something's going on.
And no one at home is going, I'm going to watch some content on TV tonight, or I wonder what content is on Spotify.I think firstly, it's a word that people wouldn't say, so we shouldn't use it.And secondly, It's really vague anyway.
Why aren't we being more specific?It's really not difficult to say, here's a drama, here's a podcast, here's a video, or here's a film at the cinema, whatever.
Why disguise everything with a word that wraps it all up and then doesn't really mean anything to anyone?
Yeah, brilliant.So true.And we're running short on time, unfortunately, Vicky, but it's been fascinating.
But I'd love to ask you, and I have to ask you about this, about the role of AI, of course, because, you know, it's the topic du jour, but also there is potential, or maybe not, for creatives to use AI in some very interesting ways.
So tell me a bit about what you think AI can do for copywriters in particular, whether it's a useful tool or some of the challenges that might there might be around it.What's your view on that?
I have to caveat anything I say about AI with I am not an expert.I can just about use a Word document to be honest.So I've not spent a lot of time with AI, but I did a load of research into AI writing copy for a talk five years ago.
And I could do that talk today because really not much has changed. Yes, AI can create copy.Can it create effective copy that's going to emotionally resonate with people in a way that no other copywriter could?I don't think so.
We are programming AI as much as we can, but we can't program it to replicate a real life experience or a real life emotion, which is something that we'll talk to real people. Yes, it will do some of the more standard types of work.Is that OK?Maybe.
Can it do anything really outstanding?Can it create an ad campaign that's going to win gold at Cannes?I mean, maybe I'm going to eat my words, but I don't think so. could and should copywriters use it?I'd really rather we didn't.
And there are a number of reasons.One is I see people using it for research and not all the results can be trusted.So that's a waste of time.And I see people using it to get to results quicker and getting rid of route one ideas to
well, because we're all working so quickly, to just get on with the job.And I think that that's an issue, because often, the things that really work are the things that come up when we're messing around and thinking up rubbish.
And we have to get the rubbish out before we can get to the good stuff.And if we outsource the messing around bit, we potentially miss an opportunity in something that we won't, you know, we would have seen if we were doing it ourselves first.
So I guess what you're saying there is, as far as copywriting goes particularly, it's the kind of that creative human sensibility which really is absolutely key.
It might be a tool and can be useful, but perhaps you always need that sort of sensibility to make really stand out work.Is that fair to say?
Yeah and a really quick example is a McDonald's campaign that came out a couple of years ago in New Zealand and it was called We Speak Late Night because basically they couldn't say it was drunk speak and it is an out-of-home campaign with images of burgers and milkshakes and the copy is saying what the products are but it's all jumbled up because it's replicating someone speaking in a drunken way and
turning up to McDonald's at 2 in the morning, having been at the pub all night.And I just don't think you could program AI to come up with a campaign speaking in a drunk way, and it would come up with something as great as that.
Fascinating.Vicky, that's been amazing and super insightful.So thank you so much for taking the time to come on to Fast Starters.
And if you're watching or listening to this episode, don't forget to subscribe, of course, and do share if you've enjoyed it.But my thanks to Vicky Ross for fantastic insights there.Thank you very much, Vicky.
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