Hi, everybody.This is Kimberly.
And you're listening to A Date with Dateline.And this is part two, duh, of Karen Reed Night of the Nor'easter.Night of the Nor'easter.We last time spoke about the incident, the death of Officer John O'Keefe.John O'Keefe.
And then we talked about the start of the trial and the prosecution's case.And now in part two, we are going to go into the defense case.And we have our good friend Jake joining us.
Because Jake and I have actually been talking about it on our Patreon because we watched the trial. in its entirety.So both of us have our own opinions on it, and we know a lot of people out there have their own opinions on it.
So let me just say, we know that people feel very strongly on both sides of this case.
We are here to present what Dateline presented, and what Jake and I are going to do is run through some things that we saw in the trial that Dateline just was not able to talk about.
Yeah, and just be respectful of everyone's opinions.We all have opinions.I don't know what my opinion is.I'm still torn.
I think there's a good case for an accident, but I also think there's one strong piece that makes me think that it's not an accident, which is the expert's testimony, which we will get into in this episode.
I do want to say I did make one mistake where I said that Alan Jackson defended Phil Spector.He prosecuted Phil Spector. He defended Harvey Weinstein.Doesn't really matter.It's his job to defend or prosecute.He prosecuted Phil Spector?
I was not aware of that.I thought he was on the defense for that as well.OK, so that's interesting.All right.
Yeah.Also, big shout out to Robbie, who pointed out that Alan Jackson was on the defense cold case squad in an episode that we covered.
With Dwayne Stanton and Yolanda.The Cold Case Squad, Mank used to have a Cold Case Squad in the old episodes.It was different people each time, but he was on it a couple times, but only one episode that we covered.So very exciting.
I did not know that.Was it a long time ago?It was.The Dream House Mystery, I believe, was the one that we covered.So long ago.Yeah. Oh boy.I don't even think it was that long ago, but we tend to forget.
True.So if you're playing catch up, please go and listen to part one, Night of the Nor'easter, season 33, episode four.Listen to part one of our coverage.
Now we're going into part two, which is the wild end of the trial and where we're sitting right now with the case.
Correct.And we're getting into conspiracy theories and cover ups.And yeah, when whether you believe in that or not, that was the case that the defense presented.Go into it with an open mind.
And yeah, and I think something Katie pointed out was that both things can be true, which, yes, is a good point.So buckle up, buckle up.
Okay, let's dive in defense.What are they doing?
The defense says this is about overzealous prosecutors, corrupt investigators, and people from Canton with a lot to hide.Alan Jackson is going at everybody.
He gets the crash investigator to take a huge, big sip of his water on the stand like he is so thirsty.No decorations on his non-Stanley cup tumbler.He takes the longest sip.
Oh, you mean the Commonwealth's crash investigator.
The Commonwealth, yes.Trooper Paul.He gets him to admit that it is weird that John crashed into the car with only his arm and didn't get a broken bone and it launched him into the air.The guy admits he's like, I don't know.
I don't know how that happened.
That guy does not want to be there.
I wouldn't want to be cross-examined by Alan Jackson.
Especially if you didn't know your shirt.
If you did not know.And Alan Jackson was coming at you with physics equations.
You pretty much just want to drop dead right then.
Oh, yeah.No, it was really bad.It was rough.
Yeah.So the state medical examiner admits that it could be any blunt object that hit John that caused his injury.Yeah.Independent crash reconstruction experts.Stop.Here we go.
This is where I also had another big problem with Dateline.
Here's who this independent crash reconstructionist is, which I wish Dateline would have pointed out.This is Dr. Andrew Rentschler, who is a biomechanical engineer
VP and Director of ARCA, which is the service used by the FBI, the NSA, the CIA, and the Department of Justice to recreate crashes.He was not hired by the defense.He was brought in by the FBI and the Department of Justice
on another matter, which we can't talk about in the trial, so it's all very nebulous, but he is not paid by the defense to be there.He is there because he did this for other purposes.
So, I mean, he's the best witness you could have and he is the last witness on the stand. and he annihilates the prosecution's case.
So you have one guy for the prosecution who took some weekend classes in crash reconstruction.
You have this guy, and then you have right before him, the man who was on, is Dr. Daniel Wolff, who would be your new boyfriend, FBI candy, who people loved very much on the internet, who was the director, literal director of accident reconstruction at ARCA.
Yeah, so these people know their stuff.
They're about... They invented the stuff.They're the top witness you could get for this and the defense didn't hire them.
So they're just on the defense's side because they can prove that there is no physical way that John was hit by a car.
Yes.So they say his head injury is inconsistent with being hit by a car.And on the reverse side, the damage on the car doesn't match hitting a person.
Oh, it's fascinating.They did this whole reconstruction of even if it was the glass that hit, how fast would the cocktail glass, if he was holding it in his hand, would have had to be going to crack, not even shatter the taillight, but crack it.
And it was something so bananas.
Dateline should have put more focus on the credentials of this person.
And just because it was a showstopper.It was the thing that like, if you didn't buy anything else in this trial, that witness was reasonable doubt.
In my opinion, it was a closed book when that witness left the stand with how like, intelligent and clear he was there.It was just That's okay.So whatever happened is not what the prosecution is saying happened.
She still could have done it in another way.But the case they're presenting is implausible.Therefore, reasonable doubt.Yeah, that's where I get stuck when people come at me because I'm like, well, what do you say about this?
And it's not just to be clear that he sounded more smarter, most smartest on the stand compared to the other guy.That's all they do is what he does.Crash reconstruction and crash studies.
And he works for these.I mean, there's a reason that they are hired by these different organizations.They're the best in what they do.And like, they do the most thorough testing.
Yeah, and they weren't being paid to say that.
Trooper Paul could not show how his theory worked at all.
And these guys said, the guy who took the weekend class.
Yeah, we're showing you how it does work.And it's not that guy's fault.But he couldn't prove it.And he knew he couldn't prove it.And they made him get on the stand anyways.I don't blame him.I blame the prosecution for putting him on there.
Get a better expert.Get somebody who says this is how it happened.
Dateline has to is rushing through all of this.So unfortunately, they just breeze over this part of the trial.And then Andrea jumps to multiple people said they heard her say I hit him.
Now, Alan Jackson points out there was dash cam footage from the first responders that were rolling and she's running around like a chicken with her head cut off.And at no point does any audio have her saying that. That's true.
You have Jen saying she said that.Jen McCabe.And you have first responders saying she said that.
And then you have one first responder who says that she didn't.
Okay.So again, this is all hearsay.
And again, I'm not surprised if she said it.It doesn't get it to guilty for me.It's like, okay.
Right.And she tells Dennis, going back to her interview with Dennis that she did a year and a half ago, she says, I did say it.I said, did I hit him? Could I have hit him?Because I was in such a drunk and confused state about what happened.
I was in shock.I was trying to make it piece together in my mind.
Can't you also hear her going, Oh, my God.Oh, did I hit him?Did I hit him?I hit him.I hit him.I did hit him like that.That tracks so much in my head.
It also tracks with the immense overwhelming guilt that would happen immediately after when she tells her dad she wants to hurt herself. All of that tracks for me.All of it.Yeah, totally.
Dennis asked her, was this a breakup date at the bar?Basically, were you guys breaking up?And she says, No, he had told me I was the best person in his life, even though we fought, we weren't breaking up.
And to me, the texts were like, she says, Okay, so are we done?And he goes, No, I'm just done with the fighting.Yeah.So it didn't sound like he wanted to break up to me.
The angry messages that she left that were 100% unhinged, she said, he abandoned me in the car.I was so pissed off.
And she is a level 10 person.
She's a level 10.I would not want to date someone like this at all.
ATF flirty man, remember the ATF guy who's read those embarrassing teenage text messages, Brian Higgins, he was at the bar, the second bar they went to, and he says she didn't interact with him at all.
So it was like she was still into John that night because she wasn't flirting with this other guy.Now he even texted her, okay, which they have many line readings of, by Andrea and Alan Jackson.Many people interpret this as like, why are you?
Um, okay, like, are you just ignoring is that how you interpret it?
Kimberly?Like, yeah, yeah, that's how I interpret it is like, um, okay, like, right?
Yeah, I guess nothing's happening.Or you just ignoring me when john's here, but it didn't sound like crazy mad.But the defense is now throwing a new suspect in, they're trying to say that Brian Higgins had a motive to hurt John.
And that's when I realized that he was also at that party.
Oh, okay, so you didn't, oh, okay, so it didn't click, yeah.
No, well, I didn't even know about Brian or these flirty texts or anything.So they're saying maybe he had a motive to hurt John because he was jealous that Karen was ignoring him for John.
And you know what, I have to say this, maybe so much not a motive to hurt him, but maybe to not help.
Yeah, I don't know.I don't know enough about Brian.I'm sure there are corrupt ATF agents, but I'm sure there are also ones that take their oaths very seriously.
So digital forensics data, this was fascinating to me, on John's smartphone, say that John went up and down three flights of stairs in a period of like two minutes, it looked like, like up a stair, down a stair, something like that, three stairs.
So that means he's inside the house.That means he made it inside the house.
And possibly went into a basement.
And possibly went into a basement where there was a fight club going on.
Where all the workout equipment is.
Master Bob's Sex Dungeon.
Possible dog.And we see the data on the screen and it says three floors. Now, prosecution says, no, his smartphone tracked that because he was driving on a hilly stretch of road.That's funny.That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
That's pretty bad.I don't like that.I don't know if that's exactly how it went.I don't.But it's.I hope they didn't use that.I don't remember that.And I know that's bad if they use.
That's really, really dumb.Was he in the Alps? I've seen a lot of people with smartphones and smartwatches and my dad's does not log that he went up any flights of stairs like ever, no matter where we drive.
So I would like people to do some experiments and let me know what their phones register.
Also don't go on Reddit and type this in because it's a jungle.
Oh, I'm sure.But here's my question.I want the facts. When his phone was registering this, what coordinates were his phone at?Were they driving on a road or were they at the house part of the house?Well, then.
And are there hills right on that street where his phone would ping?There is a hill.One hill.
Yeah, it's on a slope, I think.
I need, like, more about this phone data.
I don't know what you would have to be doing to your leg for it to register that you're stepping when you're going on a hill.
and you're sitting in a car.That doesn't make sense to me because if you're using this phone data, you should also be using the location of the phone data, and if the location of the phone data is saying he's at the house.Yes, he's at the address.
Does it feel like reasonable doubt?Oh yeah, for sure.
But do I think she didn't do it?
I'm not asking that question yet.
I'm asking if that feels like reasonable doubt, just that one piece of data.
Yes.Yeah.And there's several of these things.
A pathologist testifies that his injuries were from a beating because Andrea says, why would they be fighting him?Why would they be beating him up?And Alan says, these are drunk people.It doesn't take much to start a fight.
So to me, it's not that hard to picture someone saying something dumb, a little side comment or making a joke, and it turns into a physical fight. And they're really drunk.Yeah, that's not that hard for me to picture at all.
Mm hmm.Me neither.It's guys and they're roughhousing in the bar before the Bryans are like doing fake stuff.
So were they all revved up?We don't know.Yeah, I don't know.
I mean, I've I watched 60 days in and someone can be like, Oh, what's up, bisque?Your team is going to lose, you know, in the football game tomorrow.And then the other guy would be like, you just called me a bisque.It's on.
That is it's literally I will kill you now because you cannot call someone that.And it goes from a joke to nothing in a second.That's what I'm saying. Brian Albert, who hosted the party and is a veteran officer, high up, he takes the stand.
Again, he is wearing a community college professor vest and tie sweater combination thing.
He is also a Marine trained in hand-to-hand combat.Okay. An expert says that John's injuries on his arm could be from a large dog.Now we're bringing in poor Chloe.
What did you think when you saw the arm?
It looks like scratches to me.There were a couple that are parallel that look like it could be.But yes, I get scratches like that from Ralphie when he jumps on me all the time.
I just got a bunch of red marks on my chest from you jumping up on me the other day.
It's not even that as much as I see how the experts got there also because of the placement of them.Because it's literally the motion that my hand does if I'm blocking my face.It's literally on the front of his forearm.
So it's the exact protective place where if you were protecting your face from an animal, your arm would go.
Now, this part is very shocking.Lab techs find pig DNA on John's shirt.You heard that right.Pig DNA.Now, how on earth would that get on John's shirt? Well, Chloe, the dog, the Albert's dog, is fed pork treats like many dogs.
Was there an actual match that proves that the pig DNA matched those treats?Or no?
I think it was more they couldn't find Chloe to test Chloe.
But were they so we don't know if they were able to test.We don't know.
We know that that's the level of DNA they were able to find was to get to that.That was the animal pig.
Well, it seems odd that he would have that on his shirt if he did not interact with Chloe, if he never made it into the house.How would he get that pig DNA on him?BLT?
No, did he drop a sandwich on himself?
Did he drop bacon on his shirt?
I feel like he changed clothes.
So Brian Albert's dog, Chloe, is a German shepherd with a mean streak.I don't like that when Dateline said that.To me, there are no bad dogs.There are only bad owners or ill-equipped owners.I know.
Chloe had attacked a couple people, or at least one.Where is Chloe is the better question.
The better question is, Chloe, where is the dog?The Alberts got rid of her.They rehomed her.They rehoused her.They sent her off to live in a farm.
In Vermont.Literally a farm in Vermont.
a farm in Vermont, she's gone, and she was gotten rid of several months after this happened.
So new theory arises, and I think this is the theory, that John got into it with the dog?
That if John was fighting with the dog's owner, the dog got involved.
And then the dog jumped in.
Yes, this is a guard dog.
did the guard dog kill john and then all of this was to cover that up so that the alberts would not be held liable or i don't think the scratches on the arm would have killed him but if he fell no it's blunt force trauma if he fell and hit his head on say a set of weights
In the basement.In the basement.
Or would Brian have gotten furious if John was getting into it with his dog?
No.I don't see it working that way, but I don't know.We don't know.The question is, there's questions.That's the problem.It's like, well, is that a feasible thing?And if so, why didn't the police look into it?
Was there more testing done on his arm to show if there was like saliva on his arm?
I don't remember.I believe so.And I don't believe either it showed or it was inconclusive.
OK, interesting.So Chloe is rehomed, but there's more.So Brian Albert and Brian Higgins, the two Bryans, called each other at around 2 AM.
And five minutes later, Jen was Googling how long to die in the snow, or how long to die in cold, even though other people say that it was much later.
Now, Brian Albert says those were butt dials, even though Beth had said everyone was resting peacefully and was a sociopath.
There's three butt dials where it's basically a butt dial, somebody butt dialed them back and then butt dialed again.It's bad.And one of them, one of the butt dials is 22 seconds long.It's really, really difficult to get there.
So it's a butt dial that was answered?
He says no.They both say no.They have no memory.There's also some butt dials between Jen McCabe and her sister, who's Brian Albert's wife.It's bad.
In the wee hours.Yeah.Yeah.When apparently everyone was not at this party anymore.This is when they are all at home, right?Uh huh.So why are they talking to each other?
There's better questions about Brian Albert.Like why doesn't he come out of his door?
Right.So this was shocking to me.So he says he was asleep at 6am.But then all this chaos is happening outside of his house, literally outside on his front lawn.Police cars, firetrucks.There's literally a dead police officer.Karen is screaming.
He finally wakes up and doesn't go outside to help. This shocked me.You are a trained 30 year veteran of the police force and a fellow officer is found dead on your lawn and you don't go outside.
That's another reasonable doubt moment for me.
You are guilty of something.
Something is shady in Canton.That's crazy.
Not only does he not go outside, but a dead body is found on his lawn.A police officer.
And someone is dead on your lawn.
Not only that, then when the officers come inside to talk to him, they don't search his home, where is supposedly the last place this man was supposed to be.
They don't do any kind of cursory, just a locking down of what could potentially be a crime scene because it is your home.
Right.Where he was found.
So this is when Alan Jackson goes after basically the whole police force and everyone that was there.And you can kind of see why.You're like, well, yeah, kind of.Oh, 100 percent.And this is not shady.Oh, that's kind of suspicious.
This is like so against what normal protocol would be if Anyone died, let alone a fellow officer.They should have locked down the outside of the house, the inside of the house.You should have had CSI team come in their big suits to test everything.
Kimberly, you've been to my house.If a body is found on my lawn, what's happening to me?I'm being taken downtown and questioned at the very least.
Oh, 100%.The cats are being questioned.They're coming into my house. Yeah, they're taking fur samples of your cat to see if there is fur on the person's body that is outside on the law.
And I will tell them it was the skunk with the shady glances.
Right.I will tell them it was him.
And it was not Ulysses, although she looks like a skunk.
But instead, they collect evidence like blood samples of the drops, the few drops instead of huge piles of blood.They collect it in red solo cups that they borrowed from a neighbor.And then they put those open cups in a grocery paper bag.
It's a stop and shop bag, stop and shop.Are you kidding me?I wish I was kidding.
Is this what they do when there's a murder?Where are the evidence bags?
Where are the people with gloves?They're also like 0.2 miles from the police station.Go back if you don't have it on you.Also, where's the tent that you're supposed to put up to protect the scene?
because it's snow outside.There should have been tents.It's just shocking to me.
It's really rough.The evidence part is unbelievably hard.
And that should have result in reasonable doubt or an acquittal just because of how poorly it was managed, even if you think she did it.
This evidence, like we've seen worse.We've seen, well, the chain of command of the evidence bags over time.We can't verify mistrial acquittal.
This is one of the huge problems I have, too, is that all of the first responders are kind of like, the snow, the snow, the snow.I'm pretty sure it snows in Boston.
And in the surrounding area.
So you just don't have any crime in snow.
I saw Mare of Eastwood and there's crime.She took care of that crime.There was crime.That was Pennsylvania.No matter what the weather.Isn't that Pennsylvania?No, that was Massachusetts, I think.OK, there you go.
I think it was in warmer times because I remember them going to a lake or a river.Anyway, I know she took care of it even when it was snowing out.So get Kate Winslet on the horn.Yeah, let's go.So Alan Jackson says to Proctor,
Trooper Proctor.This is Douche Canoe Proctor.Yeah.
Douche Canoe in charge.You know the Alberts, whose house that was.You never disclosed any sort of possible conflict of interest to your supervisor.He says that's correct.
But I feel like everyone knows each other in this community, so there's probably always conflicts of interest.
Now, Alan says Karen's taillight was only cracked when she backed out of the garage to go look for John, but it was smashed when you impounded the car.And there's video of the car being pulled into the impound lot that the prosecution provided.
Now, Alan Jackson says, you can see this part is reversed.The whole video is flipped.So that's not actually the taillight.The taillight is over here.And you can see Michael Proctor walking by the headlight.
Michael Proctor had possession of the car and could have smashed the headlight.
The problem with this video, the prosecution presents this video as though it was not reversed.They did not tell the jury.
And so then when the jury finds out, it's like, they look like liars.Yeah, because you're reversing it.So you think nobody's looking.
And then you realize that all that group of people are actually gathered at the light that you can't see that's at the other side, because you reverse this image, but then somehow the time code is not reversed.Time codes right side up.
So you altered it.Someone did.And for what purpose, why?To trick people, I guess?
Well, it's not something that is done by accident or for no nefarious purposes, I would think.
It's all the shady adds up to shady with a capital S. It all adds up to, oh, maybe corruption, because it all looks so bad.Does that make sense?It's one thing after another after another.It's the pencils.
It's the pencils.Now, what about the taillights in the snow?Over three weeks, a period of three weeks after the crime, 46 pieces of taillight were found in the snow.Now, Alan Jackson says Proctor is the one who was in charge of this evidence.
He could have planted all of this.My thing is, why did it take three weeks they were still finding pieces.
This is like that poor woman's body a couple weeks ago that they left in the ground and the friends went to pay their respects and found more of the bones because the investigators didn't collect all the bones.
I know there's snow on the ground, but snow is not like steel metal or something.
Literally at one point, the snow is melting and the chief of police drives by and is like, what is that?And like hops out and goes over and digs up another piece.I'm not kidding you.
So either Proctor planted it or it is, again, the worst collection of evidence we've ever seen.
Also, what abominable snowman smashed this taillight into a thousand pieces?
Yeah, a thousand pieces.It's like frozen and Elsa did the fractals and it just shattered.
Literally, just kablooey.
Yeah.Now, Alan Jackson is saying, basically, this is all about police officers protecting each other.The thing is, John was also a police officer.Right.No one was protecting John.
Yeah.So during the investigation.Okay.So these are the texts, the horrible texts that I mentioned earlier.Proctor douche canoe head in charge He texted to his boss, I'm going through the R words client phone, meaning Karen.He calls her the R word.
He says no nudes so far to his boss about going through Karen's phone.He says it was just a bad joke. Even Andrea says to Alan Jackson, why does it seem like Proctor has this animosity towards Karen from the very beginning?
It seems like he's out to get her.And Alan Jackson says, well, this is to take focus away from Brian Albert.He's putting it all on Karen.Also, I think he's just a horrible person and hates women.
I think he's just a douche.
I think he's a misogynist who hates women.And Karen is a woman. He texts his boss, hopefully she kills herself.
Who are you, Chrissy Teigen?He said on the stand, in his defense, it was a figure of speech.Since when is hopefully they kill themselves a figure of speech? What?
I've never said that about anyone.Not my worst enemy.That's not a figure of speech.
Unless you are a horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible person.
It's a horrible thing to think and even the next 10 levels up to say it out loud and to text it to people.
Yeah, don't say it out loud.And don't say it out loud to a work colleague.
I have big problems with Proctor.
Those are things you say to your girlfriends when you're drinking rosé, that you don't put them down in writing.
That is nothing you ever say about anyone.You would never say that even drinking rosé.
No, I wouldn't.But some people might.
But they're not your friends.
And they shouldn't be your friend.I know.
So he says it was figure of speech.He also calls her a bisque, a whack job, says she has no A, body shaming.She's bleep.I don't even know what bleep was because it was bleeped out.She's bleep, bleep.No idea.I know he calls her the C word.I'm sure.
Oh, that's I bet he says that about his mom.
Yeah.He calls her the C word.He calls her the R word.They open with that.
Yeah, they open with the R word.So Proctor admits that he did dehumanize her and talked about her in horrible language.
Sue, the commentator, this was my favorite part of her, when she says watching the jury's faces, like watching the slow levels of disgust come over their faces when they're hearing these messages, had to be something else.I can't even imagine.
Sue was not a Proctor fan.
And that's what I said when this happened.I was like, you just lost every single female on the jury.And every single good man.
Yeah, I think he hates women.That's disgusting.Monster.
I think you just hate people.I don't know what like, what's wrong with you?Yeah. Why would you say some of this stuff?And that's not even the worst of what he said.He said way grosser stuff.Oh, yeah, I loved is that the judge made him read it.
He tried to like make skirted and she was like, these are your words.You got to Sam.Thank you, Judge Beverly Canone.
Thank God for Beverly.Yeah, he should have to read those words in public and be shamed. We should have the ladies from Game of Thrones going, shame, dong.
You should be shamed and you should never work in police again.You should be working, I don't know where, but not there.Maybe on a boat.
In the middle of the ocean alone.No people.Picking up the balloons that people have released for balloon releases and you have to pick them up. So the crowds are outside chanting free Karen Reed, but there's also anti-Karen Reed people too.
The jury is deliberating with all of this chaos outside.They're deliberating for days.Finally, they come back, hung jury.They cannot decide.The judge declares a mistrial.
Sorry, and if this is a big surprise to you, we're not doing a very monumental reveal.This was a hung jury.Not guilty.
Hung jury.Five jurors approach Alan Jackson and say they were unanimously not guilty on two of the charges.So he tries to get those charges thrown out afterwards.The big charge.Murder two.The murder charges.Yes.
It was leaving the scene of the crime.So it was a lesser charge.
And then it was the big one, which was murder two, which puts her back down at the normal charge, which would be manslaughter, which is the normal thing to charge in this case, even though I'm not sure if you can prove that either.
You got to prove something.
They can't prove anything.Yeah. So, he tries to get those thrown out.It's denied.They're appealing that.So, more to come.John's parents are raising the poor niece and nephew.Oh, my God.These poor kids.Yeah.
They are suing Karen for damages in civil court, but she has lots of money now because her people have raised over half a million dollars, her supporters.
Sue her.Now, I'm glad they're suing her because there's discovery in a lawsuit.Let's see.I would love more information here.It's different than a criminal trial.So let's go.
I would like full interrogatories, like documentation on all of the officers, all of them.
Now, obviously, the prosecutors are going to try her again, and that is set for January.So we're going to be getting new episodes.
Brian Albert, the guy who owned the house, he retired from law enforcement.He's a full time boxer now.I don't know what he does.
He also moved.They don't own the house anymore.
OK, Albert and Higgins did not want to talk to Dateline.The police department did not want to talk to Dateline.The DA's office did not want to talk to Dateline.Now, a lot of people thought that looked really bad for them.You only have Beth.
Beth is Beth, and she is the only one talking.Now, some of this makes sense because there is another trial, and probably a lot of them are being told not to talk publicly.
There might also be other stuff happening.
There is probably other stuff happening.
Definitely other stuff happening.But also, I do want to say this.I would love to hear if the family knows something we don't.Listen, I'm not an idiot.And neither are you.
And we know that good attorneys can get important evidence thrown out on technicalities.Alan Jackson is one of the best attorneys. So is David Yannetti.They're both really, really good.
Is there a chance that the family knows something that the prosecution is not being allowed to bring in?Is there evidence that is more proof or something?
Because it feels odd to me that none of them have any doubt that it's not her.So what do you know?What can't we know?
Unfortunately, on most state lines, the victim's family blame the person who's being charged, even if there's no evidence of that.
because they need an answer and they need someone to blame and they trust that the police are charging the right person.
Okay, I would just say they're not coming with like, no, we don't know who did it.They're coming with people they think might have been involved in this.
That's what the defense has a third party defense happening, which means third party, another people.
But again, it's people in their community.
Yeah, I guess you're right.
It's people that they trust and that are part of their community.
I know.I just I feel awful for the family.This is awful.This is an awful thing any way you cut it.It's just it stinks.And it's also why Twitter, please be kind.There are real people.
I don't think anyone should be going after the family.No, even better.
Just let them work this out on their own and let them just let them be.
This is why we don't make fun of the children of the dad who killed their mom on datelines and go, oh my God, you guys are so stupid that you don't think your dad killed your mom.It's so obvious.No.
We go, obviously you're going through a lot and you want to still have a parent in your life.So you've convinced yourself of something that's not true.And if you ever come around, that would be amazing.
But we understand why you're doing this coping mechanism.
And I gotta say, the people that are going after the family, have none of you had loss?Honestly, have none of you ever experienced loss?Because look at the loss that that family has had in like the last few years.It's a lifetime.
It's a lifetime.It's enough to last a lifetime.Yeah, that's true.Now, some people do have some like, a lot of things about the family that... What do you mean?
There were just thick people digging up dirt about his family to show that they're horrible people somehow.John O'Keefe's family?Yeah, which is not the point.
We have enough horrible people in this case that you don't need to go after this family.
Focus on who actually did something wrong here.There we go.You don't need to go after the victim's family.Stop this.Because that's not relevant.Any sort of past drama that they've had
Everybody has skeletons in their closet.Stop.
Yeah.So Turtle Boy in his heart-shaped glasses is awaiting trial for witness intimidation.Karen's new trial is scheduled for January.And Beth holds her tongue and says she hopes Karen admits what she has done.
She says she has put my family through H-E double hockey sticks.How exactly?How has she done it?She's literally defending herself from spending her life in prison.
Because they think that Alan Jackson has revved up turtle boy and has gotten this movement going Which has probably helped in some way Karen, but and I'm sure has put their family through hell I'm sure it has put the family through hell But if it's not Karen, you've got some other people that you need to be blaming and I'm not saying it's not I'm just saying Yeah.
Oh, no.All I'm saying is everyone leave them alone Yeah, mob mentality is... You can support Karen without tearing down them.It's really a weird move.Just support Karen.
And then when the family walks by, I can't think of anything other to say, but like, we love you.We want justice for your son.Like that's literally all you should be saying.
I'm sorry we disagree on how to get justice for your son, but that's all we want.We're so sorry for your loss.
When the family walks by, justice for John, justice for John is all you should be saying because and calling saying cop killer.No, my gosh, there's some gross stuff happening.Yeah, it's not good.
So now that we are done with the Dateline coverage of this case, before we bring on Jake to discuss all the things that we saw in the trial that Dateline couldn't get to, I would like to take just a second to discuss another kind of trial, and that would be the trial and tribulations of having non-existent eyelashes.
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Thank you, Thrive. Katie, do you think you could be manipulated out of a bad habit?
Scamfluencers is a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims, and what's left once the facade falls away.
Scamfluencers recently dove into the story of Richard Bandler, the godfather of modern mental manipulation.Love the alliteration there.
He revolutionized the world of self-help, all thanks to an approach he developed called neuro-linguistic programming. Even though NLP worked for some, many called it pseudoscience.
NLP methods have been criticized for being dangerous, in the wrong hands, and inspiring some of the most toxic and criminal self-help movements of the last two decades. Throw in Richard's dark past as a cocaine addict and murder suspect.
Didn't see that coming.And you can't help but wonder what his true intentions were.Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can listen to Scamfluencers and more Exhibit C true crime shows like Morbid and Kill List early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus.Check out Exhibit C in the Wondery app for all your true crime listening.Scamfluencers.
So let's go ahead and bring on our very special guest to talk about some of the extra stuff in this case.
We have Jake, our good friend that was our co-host on A Date with the Bake.And I know many of you missed him.Jake is loved by all.And this is a case that Katie has sucked Jake into and corrupted him.
Katie basically threw me at this rabbit hole.
I did.And also, you might recognize Jake from the multiple guest appearances he's done on a date with Dateline when Kimberly has been off gallivanting.
Or with a debilitating back injury.
Yeah, definitely not gallivanting.I'm just, I want to make it seem more exciting.I know, I wish.Like you were jetting off to Aruba, where people definitely go.
I mean, if you want some gallivants filled, it's fine.
You can just say. I would rather have gallivants than I'm in my 40s and my back hurts.
Yeah, right.Okay, so let's go with gallivanting Aruba.Yeah, Jake and I have been too involved in this case.It's the truth.And now Kimberly's in so because Dateline finally covered it.So here we are. All in.
And if you enjoy Katie and Jake talking about this case, there are several episodes on our Patreon and Supercast, and they are available for members, but they are also available for one-off little payments, like a few dollars.
Which I didn't know about, which apparently... That was new to me, too.
It's a new feature that Patreon has.I like it.You can set a thing for your listeners, but you could also have people be like, give a few bucks and then you can own it.
It's renting.You can rent to own.
Yeah.If you don't want to commit to being our monthly Patreon or Supercast, because you just want Jake in your ears all the time.
If you're just here for Jake, you can rent.
And if more than 10 people make that purchase, we will give Jake that money.
DM me and I'll make a special Jake-only edit. Oh my gosh, only Jake.
Yeah, I'm gonna re-dub Katie's parts.
Is there an OnlyFans where someone just talks about Karen Reid all the time?
Someone's kink is talking about Karen Reid all the time.
I mean, I have something to say about that later in the show, so let's table that.
Okay, do we want to start with things that are left off from this Dateline episode that you both as amateur experts want to inform our listeners about that they were left off of Dateline?
I think first what we should do is ask Jake if he had any overall takeaway from, because Jake had very strong feelings about 2020.I did.The 2020 episode, Jake was not impressed, nonplussed, disappointed.Big let down.In a dad kind of way.
Yes, he was really let down.You could have done better.
I learned it from watching 2020, Dad.
How did you feel about Dateline?
I will be straight up and say I think they did an excellent job.I was genuinely surprised.And structurally, I was like, oh, I see what they're doing.Okay, I like this.Because they did the thing that 2020 didn't do, and they covered the trial.
and they set it up where they do put some decent information from both the prosecution and defense out there.So you do have a pretty good coverage of the information that we learn by watching two months or whatever of trial.
I wouldn't say there's any egregious anything left out.And yeah, of course, I'm gonna say that because they even put it put in the flip Sally port footy.So Wow, good job. I actually thought the entire production was twice as nice as the 2020.
That's good.Number one, we did not pay him to say that.Number two, I specifically did not ask him what he thought about the episode before recording because I just wanted... I had a very good feeling about it.
Like I told Kimberly, I think there's always people that are going to be unhappy because they want whatever the issue is that they're focused on to be talked about.And they specifically cannot talk about everything because of right.Kimberly, why?
Time.That's a concept called time.
I will say I knowing very little about the case.Yeah. was nervous about people's reaction.I did feel like Andrea is maybe she wasn't super into this conspiracy theory of a big cover-up.
And that could have just been who she liked more depending on who she was interviewing.But it did seem to me like, from what little I know, I think some of the phone stuff, like the destroyed phones, is something that should have been covered.
And I saw some lists online of people saying, Dateline did an okay job, but this is what people need to know.People need to look into it.And they listed, and like I'm sure Katie did, of things that- I have a list, yeah.Should have been included.
But again, they only had two hours, and they have to cater to their audience, which, as we've said many times, These shows audience is a mom trying to put her kids to bed.
It's a child watching it with their parents because they're forcing them to watch Dateline.It's a guy also checking his emails at the same time and folding laundry because men do housework too.
It is like people going to the bathroom in and out because I'm on Twitter.There's a lot of people that have just taken a gummy and are trying to relax on a Friday night. There's a lot of people who are like, I was at my kid's soccer game.
What just happened?Who died?So you have to cater to those people.And you have to cater to the people like you guys who know this case in pretty strong detail, because you watched the whole trial.
That's virtually impossible to cater to all of those people.
It is a very tough needle to thread, I think.I was genuinely impressed.I was pretty impressed.
And I think that Andrea, if you think that she was on the side of the conspiracy was a hard grasp for her, I bet you reasonable doubt wasn't.I bet you she could have gotten a reasonable doubt pretty easily.
So regardless of if she believed the conspiracy or not, did the prosecution prove their case? I don't know.I know there are a lot of people that watched the trial and still feel like she did it.I have a hard time getting there.
And I know that Andrea does absolutely not have time to watch the whole trial, right?She just does it.
She had a producer who was at the trial and would sit there all day and then give her the bullet points.
So she's basing a lot of it on what her producers thoughts were.
I agree.Do we know when the actual interview that she conducted was taped?That was my other question.
Dennis's interview because Dennis interviewed Karen, remember?
Right, right.No, but I'm asking about the interview with the with John's family.Oh, so when was that taped?Do we know?Yeah, recently.
It was after the mistrial.
It was after the mistrial.Okay.
Kimberly and I recorded with her in when, May?She knew it was her, but I don't think she had interviewed.I think that- Actually, it was June.
Okay.We had her on our podcast.So fairly recent.
The trial is like May 15.It's over.Yeah, I'm pretty sure.So yeah, okay.I wasn't sure if they were having some of the same problems that 2020 was having that they sort of prepped an episode to go one way and then the story went another.
Why would they do so that you're saying most I didn't even watch the 2020.Most of it was focused on what?
John O'Keefe.John O'Keefe.And then this is how Karen probably killed him.
And then it was also Karen had an interview.So it was Karen's interview.They did not.So they had teased.I had seen parts of this interview online, so I knew she had interviewed with someone.But Dennis, that was all new.We had not seen anything.
Dateline kept that under wraps. And then, the end of the 2020, the trial was at least half, it was maybe half the time that Dateline covered the trial in.And 2020 just- Oh, easily- Random items.
Yeah, yeah.I think the back half- of the dateline was the trial.I think if you look at the time, I think it's a pretty decent chunk of it.
I mean, they do some nice editing where they tell some cross time cutting stories in that overarching narrative, but like mostly it's the trial, whereas like I remember being 2020 watching that and thinking like, we're pretty near the end and we're not actually at the trial yet.
And like, I don't know how that went.I mean, that was my issue with it is they kind of seem to hand wave away the first trial, which is like not, you know, legal. and stuff.
The question of whether or not this is Double Jeopardy is still kind of in play.
Well, no, because it was a hung jury.She wasn't acquitted.
Right, but she was acquitted on two of the three charges.So the lightest of the three charges, which was operating a motor vehicle under the influence, was the only charge that they couldn't all agree on.
So other than that, because that's and that's in the end of the day, no manslaughter, they couldn't agree on.Oh, wasn't it was manslaughter.It was the first and the third charge that the first and the third.
But was that actually officially said by the judge?
I thought the whole thing is a mistrial because of the way that the jury that's what Dateline did not go into.So this is some of the stuff that Dateline did not have time to break down was that
The jury was given sort of confusing jury instructions as to how they should vote.So they just did a mistrial on the whole thing, even though they really only mistrialed on the issue of manslaughter.I see.
And that's when several of them went to Alan Jackson after and said, right. Just so you know, yes, we were all agreed on this.And that's why he went to the judge and said, so these should be thrown out.They can't retry her.
You're saying that would be double jeopardy.But they didn't actually officially acquit her of those charges.It was right.The whole thing was a blanket mistrial.
But right.And that's kind of like, oh, it's a sneaky way of getting a second bite at the apple is the argument.And that is the argument that I think is in front of the Massachusetts Supreme Court.
Supreme Court right now, right there.
Well, because it's makes sense for it to be appealed.And also sneakily they have will not sneakily they have brought in another prosecutor for this next trial.
They have hired a special prosecutor to come in instead of Adam Lally, which also Dateline did not even mention him by name.I don't think the prosecutor in this they do in the pre trial motions, they introduce them.
then with this black on blue fit.It's got the all black and then the blue tie.
Is he the one that has the greasy comb back?He is red headed.Oh, he's not the guy that I saw.
Yeah.He's the one that if you heard someone say, what if anything, that was... What if anything?
I like that.I'm going to start saying that.
Did the car's velocity move?It makes me sound smart. I think that's why I think you should be have to watch the trial.If you say that you should have to that might be the fee.
What if anything?Do you feel like we're key things that were left out of this dateline?
I'll let you have the first bite out at Jake.I have a list.
I was more looking for my little pet issues and they hit them mostly.I gotta be honest.
Yeah, Jake has pet issues.
Yeah, well, they didn't talk about the dueling cell experts who had contrary opinions.And you know, I read the Celebrite paper, and I like a little bit understood it.
Is this about Jen's Google?
Kimberly wants to know about this.This is perfect.I was hoping you'd know more about it.So Jake does get into the nitty gritty on some Reddit.
So Jake I did.Well, I read I read the witnesses paper that was essentially his work, laying out his argument for why he felt like these timestamps time traveled, essentially.
Oh, that's right.Sorry.No, you're talking about we had questions about, sorry, what was the text question that Kimberly had?
No, mine is about Jen's Google about how long to die in the cold.Did that happen at two in the morning or five in the morning?
It happened at two in the morning.
See, a lot of people online are saying that the programmer, the guy who programmed that debunked.
Yeah, I read his paper.No.
The whole thing and said that it happened later.
I'm so excited to talk about this.He did not in fact prove that.What he proved was that it could happen.
Essentially what he did was he took some data that he saved and then he ported that over to multiple different phones running multiple different versions of iOS.
And then if you do it enough time under certain circumstances, what he's basically trying to simulate is a phone that's constantly being updated through its lifespan.
And what happens to the data that's always like, all data is all saved on a phone forever at the end.Everything you do is accessible and retrievable.Right?So what happens to this data?Oh, it's like, Katie, you didn't know this?
Sorry, bad news, everybody.
because remember the 207 or whatever that timestamp is that one was deleted that was found we learned in this episode we found that was that was found by alan jackson looking over the cell which i said i don't really even know how to delete my google searches on my phone i know i do it on my computer you can't well i know you can't permanently but you can think but it's still right you think that you're doing it
And then you know, no, you need to do like a factory reset and burn the SIM card if you want things to be really gone.
I really think you do have to destroy the phone.I don't think there's any, I think there will be some record of everything that's done.
You need to go to an air force base.Have the Loch Ness monster eat your phone.
No, you need to go to an air force base, break it in two.
Spit on the SIM card.And throw one piece.And then yeah, throw one, say a prayer to Satan and then burn it.And then yeah, that's what you do.
But so anyway, the Celebrite guy, what he proved was that this could happen if you do it enough times.It's a possibility that you might have the timestamp slipping after X amount of, you know, updates and changes.Yeah, exactly.
And I'm like, these are not normal circumstances under which your phone operates.
And yet, he has to know that, especially at three in the morning.
Right.But I was surprised, honestly, because he was a Celebrite employee.So I was like, why are you going on and essentially saying, yeah, our product don't work?
Yeah, don't work so well.
I was like, what are you doing, dude?What are you doing?
Anyway, so essentially, Jen did Google it at two something in the morning, which means she's 1000% involved.
Again, we have dueling experts on this, but I choose to believe what I understood with that I read.And yeah, pretty certain she did it at 207 or whatever.That's my takeaway.
Okay, now my other cell phone question was the data on John's phone that say that he went upstairs or downstairs.
And the prosecution says he was driving on a hill.
Is there location data that shows where his phone was if it was inside the house?
It was at 24 Fairview.Sorry, what's the house number?I forget.
But is that house on a hill?She could have been driving up the hill?That just is so flimsy to me.
Not for two flights of stairs, Kimberly.
I know.That's so flimsy to me.
No, they chose to interpret the data badly.I mean, that's so obvious.
Oh, he went up and down a hill before he got there?I don't know.
I mean, I just- But at that time, his phone and Karen's phone should be able to confirm that they were at the house at the party at that time when his phone was going up flights of stairs.Her phone should have been sitting outside the house.
So the first thing on my missing list is actually Karen's cell phone data for where she was.
So their phones arrive at around 1221 and 12, between 1221, 1224, they show up, but I think it's 1221 that they show up at 24 Fairview or Fairview Avenue, wherever the house is, the Alberts.
According to her phone data, she leaves at around 1231 because her Wi-Fi connects to John's apartment at 1236.Right.
Right.Which is when she said she went to sleep on the couch.
So at 1236, what's important about that is that Jen McCabe says she saw the SUV drive away, Karen's car, at 1245.
So there's a lot of conflicting data.John's phone stops any sort of anything at 1231.
So someone turned it off?
He doesn't text anyone.He doesn't do anything on his phone after 1230.Like 1231 it stops.
Well, that does mean something happened fast in the house, unless he just wasn't on his phone because he was interacting with people.
The problem comes in is that Dateline did not talk about all the other people coming and going from the house that night.And there's a lot of movement in this time.And there are places online that break down this timeline.
But the other, I'm calling them kids, but the younger people that were at the house for the son's birthday, there's people being dropped off and people coming, people that saw the SUV parked there with Karen in the car on her phone, just waiting for him.
So they would have seen him being dead outside.
That is the general idea.Yeah.
There were eight people that came and went from the house during the time that he was supposedly dead on the lawn.
Or no one is saying they saw him, but they would say it if they're on Team Anti-Karen.If they're on Team Albert, McAlbert, they would say they saw him on the lawn because she killed him.
And no one on the other side is saying they saw him inside the house, though, at the party.
They're saying they not saw him at all.They didn't see him on the lawn and no one saw him inside.
Right.He just didn't exist.He was a ghost.
Yeah, that was that we learned that in the in Dateline that Karen called and they, that's the first she heard.Oh, he didn't go in the house.
Yeah, but that was Jen that said it.Jen asked her sister who owns the house.So I didn't, I was wondering like these other people that were milling and coming in and out.No, no one saw him.
One girl who left the latest, who claimed for the first time in trial that she saw, was it a lump, Jake?It was something like that.It was jewelry.
She saw some kind of mass on the side of the road.
Now, she did not give this testimony to the grand jury.This is the first time she ever gave the testimony, and it was odd, and it was pretty much ripped apart.
As much as it's damning that Brian Albert never comes out of the house to check out what's happening in the morning when all the commotion is there, I feel like it's just as damning that all these people, these partygoers, no one saw his body on the lawn, which supposedly been there according to the prosecution since 1230.
And my point is that they immediately start gaslighting her the next morning by saying like, oh, he didn't come to the house. Because as far as Kara knows, she saw him walking into the house, opening up the door, walking in. So this is news to her.
I thought that was interesting.Already, they're sort of lying to her.She's like, wait, what?So the whole, oh, I don't know, Jen McCabe's anecdote about her not remembering driving to her house.I don't know.
Oh, you think that's not true?
Oh, yeah, I don't think it's true at all.I think it's made up.I think it's more made up to make her seem more drunk and more out of it.
That's interesting, because we do only see I thought I'd need Carrie Roberts to corroborate that to carry robbery that Because honestly, she seems to be the only somewhat neutral third party on that morning.Like she's roped in.
I was trying to tell Kimberly that.
I was wondering about Carrie's relationship if she has any sort of skin in the game.
She's John's old homie.Yeah, basically, but I don't think she knows these other people, or I don't think she hangs out with them.
See, and I thought Jen saying she didn't remember she was thought she left him at the bar was her trying to paint Karen as maliciously covering her tracks. by trying to say to Jen, I was never even at the house with him.I left him at the bar.
I'm totally innocent.Like she was in her right mind that she was already planting alibi seeds.
Right.They also don't talk about there's many, many times Jen calls John's phone that night, I think like nine times.Stuff is happening with Jen McCabe.
Sorry, after he supposedly didn't come to the house.
There is a whole backstory there.
Jen is calling him almost in a way where if you're trying to find someone's phone.Exactly.
Like over and over and over.
Wouldn't it be on him though at the party?
Problem is that she said, oh no, all those were butt dials.
There's so many butt dials.It's incomprehensible that this many people have butt dials.Jen, I think, just doesn't look very honest throughout a lot of this from what little I know.A couple of things people thought the audience needs to look into.
That was next on my list, is Lucky.The snowplow driver.
Yeah, he drove this snowplow called Frankenstein, but he drove by at a certain time in the morning and did not see John O'Keefe's body.
But he also drives by later and sees a car pulled up that is a Ford Edge, which belongs to the Alberts, suddenly moved from the property into the front of the house where right in front of where John O'Keefe's body is later discovered.
This is in the wee hours of the morning.There's some very strange car movement.Brian Higgins does some very odd car movement.Because when Brian Higgins, the ATF agent, leaves the party that night, they did not really touch on Brian Higgins.
He goes from the Alberts After Party to... He goes home for a minute and then goes back out again to the Canton Police Station to move some cars.Mm-hmm.
In the middle of the night?
Yes, correct.While after drinking a ton of whiskey.
The Canton police station where he is not necessarily, he doesn't have any function there, he's just assigned there.
But he wouldn't have any duties.He doesn't have any reason to go be moving.
Is this before or after he's butt dialing Brian Albert?
I think it's after.After.After they had their little butt dial conversation.The butt dials happened around 2.20, 2.30.
There's so much strange, okay.
And they're all lying, which is the problem.Like the, I would say that the clearest sort of lying comes in with both Bryans.It's really hard to get around that in the trial because there's so many things that just, they just won't answer.
So it's like, well, you have this call for 22 seconds at this time in the morning.No, I didn't.They flat out deny it.
Well, that's the no facts.Facts don't matter.You just deny and then people just don't just go, okay.
Yeah, and Jen McCabe, it gets almost right up to that.She says, I just disagree with your version of the facts.Oh, that's right.To one of the defense attorneys.I'm sorry, I've forgotten who but it's like, yeah, in her testimony.
She says that on the stand.
Wow.Brian Higgins is a whole rabbit hole that is confusing.
He's on the stand for a while, but his testimony is fascinating because he does those texts with Karen Reed, which I don't know, it's supposed to make us feel a certain kind of way, but it really backfires because then when he's cross-examined, the stuff about him destroying his cell phone,
So he's one of the ones that, okay, let's get into the destroyed phones, which Dateline did not touch on at all.
It's the two Bryans, Brian Albert, Brian Higgins, both destroy their phone.They basically, because they're in the business, they know that they are about to be given the order to turn over their phones.They're about to be given that.
That was what I wanted to talk about.Not only are they about to be given the order, that order is in the mail.
So they have however long it takes for the mail to deliver that order, to just happen to get a new phone and make sure the old one is donated to the recycling bin or whatever.
And they say they were due for an upgrade.
Yeah.Brian Albert says that it had been his birthday.I don't know the month before.And so he wanted a new phone.And so obliterated his old phone and got his upgrade, apparently just without taking any of the data on it with it.
That's insane.I just want a fresh start.
Just just want to start over.I want to be a baby.
I've had.I want to be a baby.
Sorry, we're talking about the unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, everybody, and it's Titus, and he's a miracle of nature. So Brian Higgins destroying his phone on the army base is the weirdest.So he has data pulled from the phone, right?
Is that what happens, Jake?
I think he tries to pull his own data is the thing.Like he knows how to do it.Like relevant text messages.Yeah.So he goes to the whatever office.I'm not sure if it's the ATF office.He goes to a friend.It's like a fed.
It's a federal office where they have the software and he pulls off what he thinks they probably are going to want. I got everything for you."And so he gets that package and then he destroys the phone.
On an army base, which he drove to.
He breaks it in half, throws one half in a trash can.
Half the phone, front half here in this trash can, front half in a trash can across the army base, and then like- A drive away.That is- Pounded the SIM card into smithereens.
That's what murderers do.
He's what he's one of your Taco Bell dumpster or for sure parts.
It's a Taco Bell dumpster.Yeah.Yeah, that's so suspicious It's unbelievable.Yes It's insane.
And that's where I feel like dateline was a little I just feel like this should be mentioned But how do they mention it without going into the home cut out some of Beth you can't and then put in that you can't cut out
You got to talk about the terrible treatment of the family.You have to put that out.
No 100% you do but you could have cut out one of Beth to put in the Army base thrown phone Oh, but Brian Higgins has a moment on the stand which is also something dateline can't get into which is that the FBI is doing something with this case or
or something in the area.
There is a larger investigation happening, which is why we get those fancy experts that I was talking about, the biomechanical engineers, is because of this other investigation that's larger that's happening, probably about corruption.
But regardless, there is a point at which Brian Higgins has to stop his testimony in the trial because he's a special kind of witness in whatever that case is.
Oh, now there was a ton of debate on Twitter and people screaming at each other, A, about Beth and B, people are saying the FBI cleared Karen.And so people are like the FBI cleared her.
The FBI did this investigation that showed it wasn't from a car accident.So she's cleared.And then the other people are saying that's wrong.If the FBI cleared her, they would not be retrying her in January. if she was cleared by the FBI.
The FBI came in for this other part of the investigation, but upheld the charges against Karen.
No.The FBI has nothing to do with the charges, but they did clear her.That's what those experts were doing.Those were FBI experts.They did clear her.That's why they took the stand.
But then how can the Commonwealth charge her and retry her? because they're separate from the FBI so they can just say we don't believe the FBI's experts and we are retrying her in January.
I'm sure it's jurisdictional, you can't just have a federal, they'd have to charge her.
Yeah, the federal can't come in to the jurisdiction, but it's also, why indeed, Kimberly?It doesn't make any sense for them to continue with this.
No, it's overzealous prosecutors, like Alan Jackson said, who won't admit that they were wrong and they're shady.
If this is what you think, I'm not saying that's what I think, but I'm saying that if I had a case where I know that my officers had collected evidence in red solo comps, and then I had the lead prosecutor sending text calling the person that we're charging the C word and much worse to his bosses.
That is communications with his higher-ups in the department that he's sending those things to, saying, I'm just looking here, I'm just looking for nudes.You don't go to trial.If you can't plead out, you drop the charges, right?
In normal situations, it feels like that's the kind of thing that happens.So whatever's happening here is bizarre.
I would say there, Leah asking it up.
Yes, they are.Which I'll explain to Jake later.To another prosecutor who was being difficult.So lucky the snowplow driver, big deal.I'm sure people want to talk about him.What about Chloe?
Chloe got the snozzages on the sweatshirt.
She's definitely involved.Oh, Kimberly had some DNA questions.You might be able to remember, Jake.
Was there an actual match between the dog treats and the pig DNA?
No, they just found pig DNA.And they're like, what in the world could pig DNA?Okay, doing on this sweatshirt.And then they were like dog treats.
But they never actually went.Because Chloe was gone.And so they never went and saw that she had treats that had pork products.And most dogs do have dogs.
Yeah, but they never found dog DNA.Right?
Am I saliva, like dog saliva on his arm or anything?
I don't know if they tested his arm.
But they would have to test something like clothing.So I don't think they found dog saliva on the clothing.
Do you remember anything about the micro shards in the clothing from the taillight?
Yeah, I heard that when they talked about it, but I don't remember that really being much of a point they hit very hard during the testimony and presentation of evidence.
People seem to use that, Kimberly, I will say.I've heard this, I think it was in the 2020 too.This seems to be like kind of a big deal, but it didn't feel like that big of a showstopper in trial.
Maybe that was just me, but it didn't- To me, it's hard to plant microfibers or micro shards.So why were they on his shirt?
I would think it would be incredibly easy to plant micro shards.
Well, if proctors- You take your pile of your- You just get the little dusty pieces.
No, you just take your stuff in there and you shake it in there and you take all that out.
And then it is very thorough.
And if Proctor was very thorough in planting, they are they decipher evidence for a living.I think even Alan Jackson talks about this in the episode.
These guys will know how to make evidence look a certain way because that is what they do professionally.
Okay, now someone said online that there was none of his blood on the plastic taillights.
There was not.Yeah, as far as I know.
So, which there would have been if he was cut by those.
There was also a hair on the taillight that they had said had made it through the car being towed 60 miles.
There was some wild stuff with, look, I'm going to say this, please take all the taillight evidence with a grain of salt because it's very odd.
The one thing that I was very sad Dateline left out and I felt like didn't get enough focus on during the trial The person that came to actually tow her car, remember when she says, then they took my car?Yeah.That driver, he testified.
And he says very clearly, I could see to the tail I had a crack in it.
Yes.And then I believe he's asked specifically, would you describe this as demolished or smashed?He goes, no, not at all.
Also, one one thing they've left out is that drive away footage from the Ring camera.
We've seen it.You see the bonk and the car drives away and you see that the taillight still has like predominantly red.
You can still see that that taillight has red on it, Kimberly.So when she pulled out that morning and hit John O'Keefe's car, that footage you see in the ring camera where she hits that car, that's at 4 a.m.when she's going to search for him.
So she hits him at 4 a.m.and then drives out.When you see her drive out, you can see that there's red still in her taillight.
according to the 39 or whatever pieces that were found at the thing, basically it had all cracked and fallen away and had landed on that lawn somehow.
Now the thing is, I could imagine during the tow, if pieces had kind of fallen off, how did all of those pieces somehow end up on the Alberts lawn?
The problem is, too, is that none of those pieces, and there are some very large red pieces, like you saw the ones in the snow.
None of those are found by the people that come when they've got the snowblower out there going and they're collecting blood in Red Soloka.
Yeah, none of them are found then.They're all found after the car is towed, Kimberly.
Yes, that's the critical thing.There's not one piece found when it's in her possession.
Okay, someone said the missing videos from the library, Ring Cam and Sally Port.
Yeah, people are really into that.
Well, the Sally Port was there, it was flipped and they talked about it.And Jake was very happy.I was excited.
The Ring Cam is when she backed out.
The ring cam is they keep showing just the first part of that clip.But not when she's driving away.And then there's a cam on the library that's on time lapse.So it takes footage like every so often.
It would show you if her if it would show you if her taillight is intact.It would show you her leaving, upset, calling John, you pervert, leaving.It would show her right before she gets to John's house.And it would show you the taillight.
And that footage was misplaced.
But where is that footage?
It was misplaced by Proctor.It was handed over by the town tech and somehow it was not available when they went to trial.But the tech who manages the camera says emphatically that he gave them the footage.
Yeah, I mean, even if there's no shady behavior, this is gross incompetence on so many levels.
Yeah, like, yeah, unbeatable incompetence.
What about the text chain between Jen, Matt, Brian and Nicole? I saw some people saying Jen was texting Brian someone's coming.
There are some text chains the day of where because they're all interviewed in a group by the police officers.
They're not interviewed separately.
No, at the party from the people that were at the after party that night.So just like in the way that where you're sort of like sighing because the house isn't searched, you have to sigh.Just no one was looked at seriously by Karen.Right.
Not even close.Right.So that's what's sort of frustrating, too, is it really feels like I know that Andrea says, well, then all these people have to be in on it.No, really, a couple of couples have to be in on it.
I have a retort to that too.It goes something like, criminal conspiracies are hard secrets to keep, but yet people do it every day all the time and always have.I kind of don't buy that.Right?
If you're involved in some sort of organized criminality, what's rule number one?You don't talk about it to anybody.Right?
So like, I just felt like that was a weird, that's like a weird
Problem to have with that because like you say it's a couple of couples and if you're if you have people's lives on the line people will keep secrets for decades and the usually the only time when people flip on each other or talk is when they get in trouble for something else and Only a couple years have passed if you gave it 10 years and one of the Bryans got in trouble for something else
and was willing to flip on someone.But that presumes that prosecution is actually looking for the truth, and actually looking to blame someone other than Karen, that they would be wanting to flip one of them.
Why aren't they trying to bury this? Why isn't the prosecution just trying to let's just get this?This is too much in the spotlight.There's too much spotlight on us.So also if there's something bigger coming, bury this.
That's what I'm talking about.So I think that's why they upgraded charges.I think this thing actually made her thing made sense that they upgrade her charges after they get the mysterious reach out from somebody in the state police.
Yeah, so they get hit up by somebody from the state police.And then all of a sudden, suspiciously, her charges are much more severe.And what do you know, she's arrested by a detective and a backup instead of manacled spotlights and late nights.
You know what I'm saying?Like, she was arrested. I felt like the way she was arrested was really different the second time.The first time is a pageant.It's two days before the funeral.They're doing it.
They want to look like they're going to get John's killer.So they're making all these big moves.I know I keep coming back to this.
They did a big swarm with officers.
That's what I'm saying.They did a big swarm with officers on our first one.
A big show like they were taking down Al-Qaeda or something.
Exactly.But then when she's arrested the second time, what do you know?It's just two guys, which is what it would normally be for a nonviolent offender like that.
You know, I think there's something to this little chain of events that all of a sudden, that they get tipped off to this information that sends them looking in a different direction or gives what they're looking for direction.
Check this, maybe this might be part of the problem.Maybe they might be in on it.And then all of a sudden, she's arrested, and the charges are much more severe.
And that was news to me with the Dateline.
Now, do you think, Katie, when you say bury it, drop it and don't retry her?And hope that, because this is only bringing negative attention to the police department.
Yeah, make a plea.Deal with her.Make a deal.I don't know if she'd take one.
My theory is... No, we'll give you drunk driving.Right.Because the thing with murder too, she's looking at life.That's the thing.So I think they're trying to do what you're talking about, Katie.
I think they're trying to bury her so that she can say, my attorney and I looked into this and we uncovered just the slightest bit of a conspiracy.And this was, I'm framed, blah, blah, blah.
It should just be another person in jail saying that they're framed, right?So I think they really try to dump her in there so that no one will ever listen to her or take her seriously again.
I see what you're saying.She'll be in prison.No one listens to people in prison.
Oh, me too.Yeah.Oh, good.What a coincidence.
But why is the Department of Justice involved then?Why is the Department of Feds?Why are the Feds involved?
There you're saying looking at this bigger corruption issue.
I'm saying there's something larger going on and I'm saying this is something small within it that they're just trying to, yeah, you're right, they're trying to discredit her because they have much bigger fish to fry.I think the phone, okay.
That's why Higgins focuses his phone so severely.
Right.Let's say she hit him.There's stuff on those phones.It's not about Karen.It's other stuff.It's not about either of them.There is way bigger fish here.
What's going on?And the mayor's involved?And the governor's involved?
Why don't you tell Kimberly about, do you remember at the end, Kimberly, Michael Morrissey, the DA comes on and does that speech about how we need to leave innocent witnesses alone and all this stuff.He comes on and does that speech.Do you remember?
They tack it on at the very end of the dateline, but it was actually quite a big deal that the DA came out and gave this press conference.
And the timeline's a little off on that.
That's actually way off a year before that happened before the trial.
Yeah, the DA came out talking about the guy with the white hair.Yeah.
But basically came out it was like, she's guilty.These people are perfectly fine.Good people.
Jake, tell Kimberly your thoughts on that because I don't know if she knows that.
So when we were first getting familiar with the case, I flip-flopped a couple of times.And so, you know, at first I'm like, yeah, there's no way this, you know, conspiracy could be this big.
It's obviously, it's much, it's much more simple, obviously.And then I started sort of learning details and I thought, oh, I don't know, there does seem to be something here. It seems like someone is covering something up.Everybody is so suspicious.
And this is before I knew about anything related to the forensics and evidence collection or anything like that.It just seems like stories aren't matching up.
And then I got to the Michael Morrissey statement and I thought, well, no DA would ever do this and try to ever maintain credibility.This would be a career ender for a lot of DAs, right?To come out and be like, don't look at them.Look at her.
She's the guilty one.You can't say that.You can't do that. And so but that because of the severity of that statement, it changed my mind for a little bit, where I was like, Oh, she must have done it.She must be guilty.No DA would ever do that.
You know, unless the evidence was just like, incontrovertible.
And it feels very much like a misdirection.You're right.It feels very much like look, look over here.Don't look at them, which very much could be here's the thing, Kimberly, there is a chance. My initial thought was this was an accident.
There's no way this is murder too.If she hit him, it was an accident.And what I thought had happened was actually that he had bent down to tie his shoe.She had not seen him in her rear view camera.
It was a spot where he was bending over that she couldn't see in her rear view camera that he was there, hit him, and then took off and was mad.Does that make sense? And that sort of tracked for me because she hit him and he fell back in the snow.
Not he flew back.He just fell back.That was that.But the problem was that still makes no sense with all the broken glass, the weird tail light glass that's there out of nowhere, this weird sort of
backwards Sally port where they don't want you to see the tail light real bad, like all this stuff doesn't fit.So it's almost like they had to make sure that they knew it was her.So they over kind of inflated the evidence.Right, right.
Exactly right.It's not two pieces of her taillight, it's 49 pieces.It's the whole taillight.It's the whole taillight.
But what I think he slipped up on is not getting a sample of his blood and putting it on some of the taillight pieces.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, a lot of evidence I think wasn't even tested from the solo cups.Because it's such bad.
What do you do?What is it?I mean, it's so contaminated.
But when I read Agatha Christie, sometimes Poirot goes, his friend Hastings is like, well, it's obviously this person.And Poirot's like, yeah, it's obvious it's that person.It's too obvious that it's that person.
We have all of this lining up and it's never that neat.So that makes me think that someone wants us to think this.
Which is why people go conspiracy on this.Because it's real easy to get to.It's not.And the funny thing is even for you, I can see your brain.Because you are a there are no coincidences person.
And I was very worried that you were going to watch this dateline and be like, it's the most obvious thing.The husband always did it.She did it.Blah, blah.She might have done it.But that doesn't mean that both things aren't true.
If she did hit him, first of all, it's reasonable doubt all day long for this case.But secondly, if she did and it was an accident, there's still like planting evidence possibly.
Yeah, and I think, I always say, Occam's Razor, think horses, not zebras, always on Dateline.You do, you always think.Except for the owl theory, I always say that.
However, is it inconceivable that a bunch of white men are so desperate to stay in power and cover up for each other that they do shady things?That's a horse if I've ever seen one.That happens all the time.Right, that's a regular horse.
That is not a crazy conspiracy to me.Exactly, exactly right.
Obvious like yeah, and they're police officers And it's being looked into already for some unknown reason.
This is being checked out They were being checked out by bigger powers before this happened Like we know one's really clear on the federal timeline.
They're very quiet.They're really quiet.There's not But we do know that like the case changed because of evidence that they themselves uncovered and turned over to the defense. I'm pretty sure the cell phone records, right?
Wasn't there some evidence or no?Am I making that up?I thought it was the car crash.
No, the cell phone evidence the feds gave them.Yeah, the defense's case changed because of information they got from the feds that they could only get from the feds.
It was cell phone data from Jen McCabe and a few other people that the feds had pulled from their investigation that was then given to and it was given in this huge stack.
And then it was difficult because they were trying to get through it before the time of the trial. So it was like all this last minute stuff that they had just gotten.
And both the defense and the prosecution asked for an extension because they were given this pile of stuff from the FBI.
They were given this pile of stuff and all of their research that they had done surrounding this case about the investigation into this case.And the judge, Beverly Canone, would not change the date of the trial.
So they had basically weeks, like a couple weeks, with like 800 pages of stuff.
Weird, right?And people love Beverly, right?
Oh, they don't love Beverly.
No, no.I don't really have a problem with her.I thought it was weird when both prosecution and defense are asking you for more time to go through these filings and you refuse.
That kind of seems like you.Yeah.The truth, the truth should be paramount, getting to the truth.And if it takes more time and costs more money, but it gets to the truth.Right.
I know it's law enforcement, but she's real cozy with a couple, like the Alberts and the- Unfortunately.
And Proctor and stuff.There was a real conflict there.Oh, what do you know?This trial ended in a mistrial because of a weird jury instructions from the judge.
Which is also the defense needed to fight more if they thought the jury instruction was weird.They also should have fought to have the jury pulled on each of the charges.
I think they know what they're going to get with Canone. I think we'll take our chances with the state.Thank you.
So this is going to be very interesting, Kimberly.I'm glad that at least your interest is sparked because the next trial is going to be very fascinating if it happens.
And there's also been another case that Jake and I are going to be talking about in this county that's a big one.
I know, I've heard the very- Sandra Birchmore, yeah.Okay.Right.
And it's very sad, but it is right in this, it's in Norfolk County, and it's bad, and it's involving police officers who have done a terrible crime.
Really like the worst thing, like most disgusting, terrible thing.Most disgusting.
Oh, maybe this isn't what I heard about that.
Do you know the movie Copland, Kimberly?
Sorry, but it's basically about this place.It's set in a New Jersey town where all the cops that are in the story work in New York City, New York City police, and they live in Jersey.
So this has happened before where cop communities get really insular and then justice gets a little diluted or twisted in those areas.
Yeah.I mean, literally just the drunk driving alone.
I really honestly so much of it.So much.
And without a thought without even like a thought like Karen hasn't even said, Yeah, I feel really bad about that.Not at all.Like, no, no, everyone's just like, Oh, yeah, we're all police.And we're just driving down the street.I know in the snow.
John O'Keefe grabs a road soda.
You know what I mean?Like he's like, oh, one for the road.
I said, is this Vegas?You can just walk around with open containers.
We don't do this anymore.We stopped doing one for the road about 50 years ago.Just FYI.
No, it's anything goes.Yeah.And I think there are probably studies about the most corrupt police departments in this country.Like I know Baltimore is up there.I wouldn't be surprised if Boston is fairly high on the list.
Well, so- And hello, I come from LA.I'm not saying LAPD is not incredibly correct.No.
The prosecutor that's coming in, though, Kimberly, we'll leave you with this too, is sort of what- is he infamous, Jake?What do we call him?
I would say he's pretty infamous.I mean, every single item about him- This is the new prosecutor.Prefaces his name with his work history, right?Which was?He was Whitey Bulger's defense attorney. He's the new prosecutor.That's the new prosecutor.
They hired him special so that all those fun people in Canton, all their money's going to pay for this dude.
Did Norfolk County hire him special or the state of Mesa?
No, Michael Morrissey hired him special.Good luck. Something stinks here.Bad.Yeah.
And so- Oh, thank you.Did we- you did your things already, right?No, did you have something?
We're not doing them for this episode.What?Oh, I had one.
We can't give it to us.Something stinks in Copton, Mass. Yes.Copton.Copton.That's what you're calling it now?I call it a copton.It's good.That's excellent.I thought it was all right.
Yes, you did good.I think that that's all that I have.Let me make sure.
A disclaimer to all of our listeners, we probably did not touch on several things.Just don't come at us.Yeah.
Yeah.But please join our Patreon supercast for Jake and I discussing the Sandra Birchmore case, which is up next on our docket.And it also goes, it's just some of the same people from this case.
Yeah, some of the same lot of crossover.
But please let us know what you think, but please bear with us if you don't agree with us, and let us know why.But politely.
We don't have all the answers.We're not experts.
The thing is, is that no one knows yet.And it's frustrating because we're worried we might not know.And so yes, she may have hit him.But yes, stuff might be also weird.
Yes, both things can be true.Absolutely true.
And also, she may not have hit him. But then you have to be not guilty.If it's a maybe, that's where we're at.And that's where I seem to have some problems.Yeah, that's it.Oh, it's so glad we get to talk about Karen Reed.Thank you, Jake.
Yay, thank you.This has been scratching an itch for Katie.Sorry, that's weird.
No, no, I've been heavily invested in the case and now I have to go watch 45 more videos on it because I'll be on this for another couple weeks.
Okay, so everybody has their thing where they think they have a gotcha moment.And there's a lot of misinformation going around and a lot of dueling facts and facts don't matter anymore.So there we go. Good luck out there.Have fun.
Also, just don't harass people and be nice.Thank you.That's all.Thank you so much for listening.Thank you, Jake, for joining us.We appreciate it.
Thank you for having me.Always a pleasure.
Thank you, everyone.Bye.Bye. What about the headlights in the snow?Over three weeks.
Sorry, the taillights.I don't know the difference.I don't know about cars.
Yeah, I know.I should know that.Over three, it's like the bow and the stern.
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