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This is The Ed Milet Show.
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This is one of the greatest boxers of the last two decades, and you might even argue in the history of the sport.And so, Andre Ward, thank you for being here today.Appreciate it, man.Thanks for having me.I'm curious.I'm a big boxing fan.
So when you became on my radar, was during the Super 6 tournament.They called that the Super Middleweight division at the time, correct?
Yes, Super Middleweight, 168 pounds.
But basically, I'm paraphrasing, Showtime got together and said, let's just find the best one in the world.They put the 6 of you in this tournament.It ended up being a 7th dude or something.Wasn't Jermaine Taylor in it originally, or what happened?
Well, there were guys that, like, guys would get knocked out or get injured and then they replaced them, but it was always, the court was always six.
So, again, you had Kessler.You had Frocked, or Frock, whatever they call him.There's some dudes in this tournament, right?Yeah.And you ended up winning that tournament.I'm curious, when it started at that level, was that a new level for you?
And, like, did you have fear?Like, did you wonder whether you were the man of those six?How'd that work for you?
I had to drop everything.
We got in the car, got back to San Diego, flew to the Bay Area, literally dropped my family off, packed a bag, double ear infection, got on a red eye, went to Germany, and was there the next morning to announce the second leg of the Super 6 and was this close to not being a part of it.
And the way they filmed it, everybody, by the way, this was so powerful.All this 24 seven stuff you see now, this is kind of the original of that.And it was so well done.
It really changed to some extent how boxing was promoted on either Showtime or HBO to the way they laid it out.But I watched it closely and you weren't the dude they were sort of steering the cameras towards in the beginning.
And it was really interesting.It was the other guys that I've mentioned before. And I remember you won, then you won again.I'm like, oh, this dude's got a chance to win this whole tournament.
So every one of these fights, just curious, when you went into it, I just want to know how a world-class person thinks or doesn't think.You're there at that thing in Germany.You see these other five dudes.
Are you like, I'm going to win this tournament?
I've always had that belief.My professional career was guided very meticulously.The powers that be, the networks, the suits, the promoters, they want bang for their buck.They want to make the most money as quickly as possible.
And I had opportunities to fight some of the guys that were in the tournament maybe a year or two earlier.And it was for more money than I'd ever seen and great opportunity.And I called Verz, like, man, they're going to give us $600,000.
And we get to fight on HBO and this and that or Showtime.And he said, no, no.He said, hold on.He said, I understand that if we say no to this, internally there's going to be some blowback.
But he said, when we fight these guys, I want you to be a full grown man.
And and I want you to destroy him like I don't want you know No, I don't want you to be barely winning or barely he can buy And we did that like two or three times before the super six happened And we get blowback and some of the blowback spilled publicly where fans are saying all you know words He's a gold medalist, but he's moving too slow.
And that's the heat you take Yeah, that's the bullseye you have on your back coming in with a gold medal but in Germany I Really saw what the intent was.
You had Mikkel Kessler, who was Mikkel Kessler at the time, he was like 42 and one or something like that, but like, I don't know how many knockouts.He had more knockouts than I had fights.
You had Carl Froch, who was from the UK, and you had Arthur Abraham, and then you had three Americans.Jermaine Taylor, who was teetering.He was still relevant, but he was teetering on kind of being done.
You had the young guy, Andre Durrell, and then you had the other young guy and myself.And I could tell that
Everybody that was there they just looked at us like we were just a token just to be there like these guys will make it interesting Some namesake young guys coming up, but these guys these are the guys that are supposed to win Yes, and I took exception to that to the personal.
I took exception to that and I I got on the phone, I called Virgil, I said, man, they don't really expect me to win this.He said, oh yeah, I know.He said, it's always been like that.He said, but just watch.Unwavering faith, he's always that pillar.
And again, that jumped off on me.I was already confident, but now it was personal.Now it was personal.
Your physiology changes so dramatically.You go into your Virgil thing, you go into your Devon thing.
Yeah, you can see it, you can see it, you can see it.
And at that time, Kessler and Froch were like rock stars in their various countries, too, right?They were big names at the time.
I don't blame anybody for not picking us.Like, I probably wouldn't have picked me.I was a young guy.Yeah, I had the gold medal, but I hadn't done anything as a pro.My biggest win was a guy named Edison Miranda, who was a beast.
He was a top contender, right?That was my biggest win as a professional. I don't blame anybody for not picking me, but I was also going to use that as fuel and ammunition as well.I was going to use it.
So he goes on to win that like he wins everything else.The other thing you said, I just want to hear everyone hear things I hear that I think are important.
I do think that there are times in your life where if you don't jump on an opportunity, you will regret it the rest of your life.There is timing to when you win.
There are moments, and you've said this a few times where Virgil said this to you, and for a lot of you that are chasing what you're chasing,
You may get fatigued with that chase, but there's got to be this part of you that goes, if I don't jump on this now, this may never come again for me.So your timing is so critical.Winning the Super 6 tournament was a huge catalyst.
Now let's talk some boxing stuff, just for me.I'm curious, I told you I was going to ask you this, and you haven't told me the answer, so I'm curious.Forget the training part just for a second, we're going to get to that.You were getting wrapped.
You're about to go out for a big fight.You're getting wrapped up.I'm sure Virgil's talking to you.You're going through whatever your game plan was.What goes through you?Is there honest emotions here as a fighter?
See, the thing about boxing to me is that it's different than every other sport.UFC has some of this as well, but the combat sports.This is a man and a man.
I think people forget this, like, even when you bat as a baseball hitter, there's another dude coming up after you.If you ground out, the other dude could get the hit, right?
This is a man and a man, and I'm just curious, when you have that happening, look at your physiology changed again, right?But I'm just curious, like, when you're getting wrapped at that moment, what's going through you emotionally?
What's happening to you at that time?
That moment can break a lot of men.You can have a great training camp, Everything could be clicking.You could have a great fight week leading up to that moment.And that moment, as well as the walk to the ring, you can lose it.
Like you can lose your confidence, you can let fear overtake you, and you can somehow convince yourself that you're not worthy to be there in that moment. It's almost like an out-of-body experience.
You hear people say a guy froze or he didn't perform or it was a deer in the headlights.That's what they're talking about.
It's almost like a surreal moment, this moment that you've been prepping for, talking about, building up to, the world has been talking about. Like it's here, and the fact that it's actually here, like it hits you in a different kind of way.
Like you're getting rapped, and you have the commission from whatever state you're fighting.They're coming in, they're checking on you.They're giving you the countdown.We got 45 minutes.We got 30 minutes.We got 20.
Then they come back in after you get your gloves back on, and they say, we got five minutes.We're walking in two and a half minutes.And they start to count you down. Like, whether you train good or not, that's running through your brain.
Thinking about my wife and my kids.I'm thinking about the fact that the whole world is literally gonna be watching me in just a few moments.I'm thinking about my critics.They got a front row seat.They got a front row seat.
Thinking about my supporters and the people that are riding with me, getting behind me.They got a front row seat.They're watching, they're pulling for me.It's like this controlled chaos that's going on and it's literally an arena.
with two gladiators getting ready to literally risk it all.Like, boxing is the only sport, professional sport that I know of, that one loss can change your pay scale.Like, it's in the contract.If you lose a fight, your minimums can change.
We can renegotiate those minimums.Like, that's what's going through my head. And fear is very real.Really?Anxiety is very real.It's very present.And all the guys that say, I don't get nervous.I'm Iron Man.They're not being honest.Is that right?
Like, that's very, very present.But that's where my faith, New Year's, comes in.And I start to believe beyond myself.I start to believe beyond the way that I'm feeling. We're called to walk by faith and not by sight.
We're called to walk by faith and not by feeling.So fear is present, but courage is going in the midst of fear.And I've had 32 fights before I retired.I had to do that every single time.It's not like, oh, this is the 25th time I've done this.
Because one punch can change your pay scale one punch can change your life and you're not guaranteed To walk out the same way you walked in so all of that is going through your mind running through your body and You got a channeling you got to process it and you got to believe and you got to be unwavering and one thing I would always do
was I would kind of just pace the locker room.And even though my team's in there, even though the commissioner's coming in and out, and again, this like controlled chaos.
Television cameras are in your face, producers are walking around, you hear the crowd. You hear the announcer, I would just talk to myself, it's my night.It's my night, I'm not going home without my belts.
Those types of things, they may seem corny to some people, but that stuff would really lift me up.Because a made up mind is a hard thing to break.And your mind has to be made up, not made up.
walking to the ring Or when you step through those ropes your mind has to be made up Before you leave that locker room that I'm not gonna be broken.I will not lose tonight.
Oh my gosh you ever get You ever get there where you're at the stare down and look at a dude and know you got him Does that ever happen or is it on a professional level?You just don't know does it ever happen the reverse where you're in that state?
You're in that faith state.You're in that strong state and you've looked you're like, oh I got this fool.Does that ever happen?You have to tell me who
Most times, no.Because... As fighters, we can lie.We're good chameleons.Because in the sport of boxing, if you show weakness, the opponent's gonna pounce.So we hide a lot of our emotions.
You know, you got some guys that are scared to death, and they'll put a mask on.There's one time, one time in a 32 fight career that I knew I had a guy at the weigh-in.Chad Dawson.
You knew, and you even told me who it was.And by the way, Chad Dawson's a great fighter, but you knew.How'd you know him?Why'd you know?
He, so you get a lot of rumors and you hear a lot of hearsay in training camp.
This guy, they'll call my coach, and I stayed away from that stuff, but my coach always had his ear to what was going on with my opponent, and he would decide on what he wanted to share and what he wouldn't want to share.
The guy Edison Miranda that I just told you about, He was sparring with Chad Dawson to help Chad Dawson get ready for our fight.Big fight.Chad Dawson was the lineal light heavyweight champion that just beat the great legendary Bernard Hopkins.
Southpaw.The fight before, yes.Tall, rangy.He beat Bernard Hopkins.He's on HBO.Max Kellerman asked him, you know, Chad, what do you want next? I'm minding my own business.He calls my name.I had just won the Super Six.He said, I want Andre Ward.
He said, I'll fight him in his hometown of Oakland, California, and I'll go down to his weight, too.And I said, really?And I liked Chad.I supported Chad and didn't see that coming.That was the easiest fight that we ever negotiated right there.
And I hailed him to every single word that he spoke.
Every word.Coming to my weight, my place.
So they get in the training camp. And because he's losing so much weight, his punch resistance isn't there.Edison Miranda can crack.Edison Miranda knocks him out in sparring.In sparring.Stuff starts to circulate.
Virg comes to me and says, listen, babe.He used to call me babe.Listen, babe. I'm not saying this to get you off track, we gotta stay focused.We were probably about two and a half, maybe three weeks away from the fight.Maybe about two and a half.
He said, I'm hearing some things, man.I'm hearing that Edison Miranda, he knocked Chad out.I said, knocked him out.I said, knocked him out.Like, they had to stop the sparring, help him up, and that was it for the day.
Now, if you're a fighter, like, that's like the worst case scenario.Here's one thing if you get knocked out in a fight.Got small gloves on, no headgear, it happens.That's acceptable in some respects.In sparring? Nah, nah.Not if you're the top dude.
There may be a sparring partner getting knocked out, but not the top guy, not the champion.That was a no-no. We started hearing rumors, so I'm kind of processing, like, man, he got knocked down.Man, that's crazy.
But in my mind, I'm always very much in my head, especially in training camps.I'm like, ah, maybe they're just floating that out there to get in my head or trying to get me off track.And that's what Virg said.
He said, but don't, you know, don't worry about it too much.Just, you know, stay focused.We kept hearing stuff, kept hearing stuff.Nothing ever went on the airwaves.Nothing, nothing on the internet, nothing.
Press conference came, the week of the fight.I'm thinking, man, I wonder if they're going to say something.Is a rumor going to come out, if I'm going to be asked about it?I was never asked about it.The weigh-in comes, Friday, the fight's Saturday.
I said, now I'm going to drop it on them.Now I'm going to drop it on them.We go face to face. And his team, they're over there woofing.My team's kind of woofing a little bit.
And I leaned in his ear and I said, hey man, I heard what happened in that gym.I said, you better tighten it up tomorrow night.And you just see his shoulders just go.And he's got this look on his face like, how did you know?
I won the fight with Chad Dawson right there.Oh my gosh, that's awesome.We turn and look at the cameras, turn back and look at him before I walk off the stage.I broke him, just like that.You just knew.Broke him.That is an awesome story.
Because he thought he got away with it, he thought we didn't know.It's too late, you can't get out of the fight now.
That is awesome, man.That is awesome.
So that was the only time I ever felt like I won a fight.
Thank you for all of that insight of that, and what it's like getting rapped.I don't know if I've ever told that story before.It's awesome.We're keeping it in whether you want to or not.I'm keeping that one in there.So, you said that one punch.
A couple more things on boxing, then we'll shift, because we're going to run out of time.I could go three hours of this, but you said that one punch.Hardest you ever been hit by who?
I would say, it's tough to say one guy, but I would probably say the guy with the strongest power, the two guys with the strongest power are Arthur Abraham, and I heard rumors about him.
The analogy people always gave was he feels like he's got bricks in his gloves.And if you watch my first fight with him, the only fight that we had in the first round, hit me with a jab.A jab.
And for those that don't know, that's a basic punch in boxing.Just a straight, straight punch.Wow, he hit me and I kind of buckled a little bit.I said, oh boy, it's real.Everything they said was real.
And that kept me on my toes and kept me on my game the whole night.And then Edison Miranda, he hit like a mule.His money punch was the right hand.That's pretty much all he had.He pawed with the jab.He had these long arms.
And if he landed that right hand flush, a lot of guys went to sleep.And that was my first time facing a big puncher like that.And that's probably the worst I've ever felt after a fight was fighting Edison Miranda.
Those two guys probably had the most devastating power.
So I thought you were going to say, and we'll wrap up the boxing piece here, I thought you were going to tell me Kovalev. I love your face when I said that.So, for those of you who don't know, I'm a huge fan of yours, you know this.
But now that we're friends, I need to tell you that before you fought him... You a little worried?I was worried for you.So I thought, this is the crusher.This dude supposedly can really hit, right?And so, y'all don't know this, he beat him twice.
him, but so just because those are the last couple fights, right?So just what would you just tell me about fighting him, prepping for him, getting hit by him, those fights, anything you would tell me about those experiences?
I mean, the first fight was like, hey, it was people thought it could have gone either way.The second fight, there was obviously no question.
Yeah, no, I mean, Kovalev was like, he's a real deal.He's a real deal.Anytime you got a nickname like The Crusher, you better be able to hit hard.And he has good power.He has good power.It's not what I thought it was.But he hits hard.
And I think one thing that's always been overlooked in my career, you hear about, you know, people saying, oh, he's a good boxer.You know, Dre, you know, he can do this, he can do that.But they never talk about my chin.
And that's not really something I want to be known for.
You don't want to get hit all the time.
That's not really my thing, but I've fought the best punchers in the game.I've been down twice in a 32 fight career.I've fought the best.One of those times was against Sergey Kovalev.
I can't get into too much, because we're going to be putting out the documentary soon, and we're going to detail a lot of what happened in the pre-fight for Kovalev won, but just went through a lot of different things physically for that fight.
I was moving up in weight from 168 pounds to 175 pounds.But again, like you just mentioned, I'm not going up there just to fight some Rudy Poo.I'm fighting the best guy.This guy was the real deal.Russian fighter.
He was known for going into other people's hometowns and home countries and taking their belts.
And nobody really wanted to fight him, and here I am, a guy that's in a lower weight class, who's not really considered a big puncher, but has a lot of skill, and I've pretty much won everything at the lower weight class, and people are saying, man, he's going up in weight?
The overall consensus was, the critics were saying, he bit off too much.This is the guy that's finally gonna get him.And my supporters were saying, Dre's going out boxing.
We get into the fight, and the first thing I noticed about him was just how accurate he was.Like, it wasn't necessarily that he hit hard, it was just, he was just very accurate.Like, I was thinking, and he was punching.
And the first round was just like, man, it was just like a blurt.I remember sitting down and Verge getting on me right away, saying, man, stop posing.Meaning, stop standing still, like, move your legs, like, warm up, get moving.
And I was just kind of like, man, I just, I don't know, I just kind of felt like I was in quicksand.Second round, he and I,
Exchange and I'm getting ready to throw a right hand He's getting ready to throw a right hand his right hand gets there first, and I just see a flash BAM I look up
I'm on the canvas, I hear the crowd going crazy, I look up, the referee's in my face, six, seven, eight, and I stand up.In those moments, we talked about pre-fight, but in that moment, that's for sure a fight or flight type moment.
Like, whatever you got on the inside, it's gonna come out.If you got turn in you, it's gonna come out.If you got any kind of coward in you, it's gonna come out.If you got the dog in you, that's gonna come out too.
And I thank my dad for these types of moments because My dad had that dog in him, and he's the type of guy that would never start anything, but if you hit him, he's gonna hit you back.
And that was probably the best thing that could've happened to me in that first fight with Kovalev was for me to get knocked down, because now I'm mad.Now I wanna get that back.And I'm no longer overthinking, trying to be perfect.
I was too busy, I was incensed with trying to get that moment back from him.And I found somehow, some way, man, by the grace of God, I clawed my way back into that fight.And I really felt like from the seventh round on. I broke him.
And when I say broke him, it doesn't mean that he quit.It doesn't mean that he threw in the towel.It means that he wasn't himself.I stopped him from being who he wanted to be that night.And I eked out a win.
And I won the fight by the 12th round, if I'm not mistaken.Two judges gave it to me.One judge gave it to him.One judge gave it to him.And some people were not happy about it.And some people were happy about it.
And after the fight, I thought I was done.I thought I was done.I think it was a combination of just my career, the physical toil that it took to get ready for fights, and then the actual fights.
And then you see the reaction from the people, and it's like, man, I just gave my all.I just beat the boogeyman, I beat the monster, and it's still not enough. I didn't do anything for three months after that fight, and that's a no-no for me.
I always do something.I'll take maybe three, four weeks off, let my body heal, and then I'll start to do some running, some light shadow boxing.I'll get back in the gym little by little.I had no desire, literally, for three months straight.
I remember going to see my pastor, Napoleon Kaufman, former Raider running back.Really?He's your pastor?Yes, my pastor.Did he go to Notre Dame or Navy?No, he went to UW, University of Washington.That's right.Okay, that's right. From Lumpo.
I remember him.Yeah.I remember going to him and you know, he abruptly retired after six years in the league and started in church and he's been doing great.I said, man, Pastor, I don't know, man.I said, I think I'm done, man.
He said, man, why do you say that?I said, I haven't done anything in three months.I said, that's not like me.I have no desire to do this.And I thought he was going to co-sign with me.Yeah.And he kind of sat there like he did.He said, you know, Dre, I
He said, I think you'll be fine if you stop right now.He said, but I can see you doing one more.And I remember I was thankful for what he told me, but at the same time I was disappointed. Like, what?
Wait a second, you're supposed to give me that extra little oomph to give me the courage to walk away.And he challenged me, said, man, I can see you doing one more.I said, really?I said, but yeah, but I just told you I have no desire to do it.
I haven't been to the gym.He said, I know, I know.He said, but once you make up your mind that you want to do the second fight, he said, the fire will be rekindled.And he just sat there. And I got up and I walked out, and again, I had mixed emotions.
I was like, man, I appreciate him.But man, that wasn't what I thought he was gonna say.And he challenged me just to go a little bit longer, go a little bit further.
And I was content, even though I knew I was gonna get some heat, and people were gonna say, you're running from COVID lab, you lost the first fight, you're scared to fight the second fight.I knew I was gonna get that, but I was over it.
Drove home, and Talked to my wife and mulled over her for about another week.I picked up the phone, I told my team, I said, man, get the money right.I said, we'll do the second fight.And just like that, the desire kicked back up.
It did come back.You trained just as rigorously for that fight as any other fight.
I had the best training camp. for that fight than I probably ever had in my whole career.I was the happiest.I just enjoyed it again.The first fight, physical issues, it was just a lot of pressure.It just didn't feel right.
But once I got through that and got to this other side, man, I had a great camp and I was happy.I had the bounce back in my legs.My body felt good.I just mentally, me and Virg had planned to knock him out.
That was the first thing Virg said when I went back to the gym.He said, we gonna stop him. And in my mind, I'm like, all right, how?
That's the what.What's the how?He said, we're going to hit him to the body.He said, you broke him that second half of that fight.He was exhausted.He said, we're going to pick up where we left off.And the camp was just amazing.It was amazing.Amazing.
We had bumps and bruises, but that was the best camp emotionally that I've had in a long time.
So that leads to the big question. Like, he retired.By the way, if you want to see something, it's unbelievable.So this was a dominant win, okay?I think your best fight, myself, because of who it was against, too.
So, you want to see an emotional clip, go to his Instagram, which we're going to promote at the very end.We're going to promote some things here in a minute that I want you all to see that are awesome that he's doing.
But let me just be clear with you.You need to go watch this video.It's emotional to watch.I told him I got teary-eyed watching it alone, right?So you lost a little of your juice after the first fight.You found it.
Then he retired after this fight, but still the dominant fighter that you are, why not fight again?
Do you know you're not going to fight again, or is there the chance that something like that happens again, and that fire gets rekindled, and we see you back in the ring again?He walked in there, and I'm like, this dude is fit, ready to go.
It's been a year, Friday, that he decided to retire. Really, you know boxers are like really now.He's saved some money.He's not your normal boxer, but be real Like is there a door open?I know you can't like is it cracked open?
Is it possible the right dude came along?Called you out.Whatever like be don't don't do the TV answer do the real answer Like is there a chance that you would fight again?
listen It's not something I'm planning.It's not something I'm planning.It's not something that's being mapped out.But I'm also smart enough to know that you don't know how things are going to unfold.You just don't know.
So I'm always going to keep myself in some kind of shape.Yeah, you're smart kid.I'm always keep my eye on the game and just see who's who and what's going on.But I'm not planning on it.
The why is what we're gonna address in my upcoming documentary, Unguarded.Let's talk about that.And I named it Unguarded because my harshest critic will say that, Andre's guarded, he doesn't give you anything.And some of that is true.
But a lot of them haven't taken the time to ask why.Like, we just met.I followed you.I know your body of work.But I feel like I can talk to you.It's kind of like a kindred spirit there.So you want to open up to a person like that.
And sometimes the media, they come off abrasive. They kind of want the story for the wrong reason.And based on my upbringing and everything that I've had to go through, I'm sensitive with my story, man.
I'm sensitive with my whys and I'm sensitive with all those things.
And this is one of the first times that I'm gonna really open up, and not just open up, but show people why the best fighter at that time a year ago walked away from tens of millions of dollars.And without giving too much away,
Of course, there's a lot of factors.There's wanting to preserve my long-term health.I'm dealing with physical issues.I've had multiple surgeries and I've, to use your line, I've maxed out.I've poured myself out.
I've literally given everything that I was supposed to give.When I jump rope, I gave it everything I had.When I shadow box, I gave it everything I had.
And literally to the point to where my coaches had to pull me back and say, man, don't leave it all in here.That's all I know is to give it everything I had because Like, I've had a 20-year win streak since I've been a baby, 14 years old.
And that doesn't come easy.And yes, I can have the faith in God, and yes, I can have all that stuff, but faith without works is dead.
And I put in that work, so I got to a point where I said, there's only a handful of guys that have walked away like this, a handful. And there's even a smaller percentage of guys that left undefeated.
And I didn't just pad my record and then say I'm undefeated.I fought the best, the best available competition.And I just woke up one day, And I had tens of millions of dollars on the table.
And I told my wife, I was like, I don't wanna do this no more.I don't wanna do this no more.And I said, and even me saying it like it's taboo.You're not supposed to say that as a professional athlete and more importantly a fighter.
Because when you start using the R word, the writing's on the wall.It's time to go.And she said, babe, if you're saying that, Feel like the decision is already made and you know, you got my full support and the video that you just mentioned
For some reason that video was in my head, like I had it.I said, man, I want my, and those boys that were in the video were my sons.Oh, wow.
I said, I want to show people like my career at each stage as a young kid and then, you know, young teenager and then, you know, older teenager.And then I want to let them know that I accomplished everything that I set out to accomplish.
I got people that love me.I got, I got critics, you know, but I've done it all that I wanted to do.I've made enough money.Um, I'm ready to go.And,
There's a piece of this decision that was for me, but then there's also a piece that was for the sport that I love.A sport that I've given up a childhood for and given my life to.You know, fighters are not always revered.
When you say certain fighters' names, you get a certain reaction.When you bring up the name boxing, and you don't love the sport like you, most people's reaction is, ah, you know.And they have something negative to say after that.
And one thing that they always say is, ah, you know, those fighters, man, you know, they hang on too long.And I went to Canastota, New York about three years ago to the International Boxing Hall of Fame. And it was such a, it was a rewarding moment.
It was a, it was an awesome moment.I'm seeing fighters that I grew up watching and I'm talking to them and we're getting at each other like, man, I ought to beat you, man.You're too small.And we just had a great two or three days.
But then I also saw the ones that, that neurologically weren't good. or maybe didn't have the money, tangible, you know, proof of what they did all these years.And it bothered me.And Ed, I didn't wanna be another one of those guys.
Like, when is enough enough?Like, you can always say there's more money out there, but the question that me and my wife kept asking ourselves was, what do we do with what we had?With what was already in our hands?
And since I retired, don't get me wrong, Like, I missed the boxing checks.Because they were plentiful.They were large.But they come with a price.And I just wasn't willing to put my body through that anymore.
And again, I'm a person that gave it all I had, or I don't want to do it at all.
And if I can't give it all I have, and if I don't think my body's going to respond like I need it to, I don't want to wait until some young guy has to show me that I don't have it anymore.
I'd rather leave on top and try to set an example for the next generation and say, man, you know what? I'm going to do the Andre Ward.
Oh, wow.You just have this overabundance of character.Thank you.And so that's what overflows from you, right?
And I do believe in life there's these chapters of our lives, and I think, you know, and I want to make sure that everyone knows about this documentary, too.It's like that's one of these chapters.Just the preview alone is just gripping.
It's like unbelievable.I can't wait for this to get out into the world.And you've turned the page, and one of the things about you is your character.
So, by the way, selfishly, I hope as you keep turning these pages that sometime over the next two or three years again, the chapter turns where you feel the desire to do that or should do it.
But I admire and respect you for not doing it, too, because there is so much to be said to be finishing the way that you have.
And because of your character, because of your composure, your elegance, the way you communicate, you have a lot of other opportunities outside of boxing, too, right?I mean, you know that. What makes a leader?
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The guide is free to you at netsuite.com slash mylet netsuite.com slash mylet. Very short intermission here, folks.I'm glad you're enjoying the show so far.Don't forget to follow the show on Apple and Spotify.Links are in the show notes.
Now on to our next guest.Trent Shelton, welcome back to the show, my brother. Yeah, man, I appreciate you, man.Thanks for having me back.You've had an injury that ended a career like we both had, right, or whatever.That is not changeable.It's it.
That is a it's a fact of life.It happened or there was a divorce or you had a bankruptcy or a business failed or someone did you wrong.So you talk often about being able to not change the situation, but change potentially the way that you what.
So go ahead.I'll let you I'll let you answer that.
That's so powerful and because I get that question all the time.It's like I can't change or even teenagers are saying I can't I'm in my parents household.I can't get out this household.I can't do this.
And if that's the truth, if you can't change the situation. you must change your mindset in the situation.You must change your mindset towards a situation.You must change who you are in the situation.And that's called perspective.
Someone I talk about all the time, your perspective can be your prison or it can be your power.And so any situation that I know that I can't undo, I mean, even with my mother's, passing.I can't change that.That's a situation I have forever.
I can allow that pain to control me.Or I can say, you know what, I can do something with this pain and, and manipulate it to make it my power.And so I'm always thinking now, okay, how can I find power in this situation?
You talk about the word for the year. Right?One of my words, I always say is this, our mantras is this is power.
When I can't change situations, this is power because at some point I know I'm going to look back and say, man, that situation that was supposed to break me that I couldn't change at the moment.
Maybe God was allowing me to stay in that situation, not to break me, but to build me.And I can look back plenty of times in my life and say, man, I'm glad I stayed in that, or I'm glad that happened.
Because now it created something inside of me that if I want to move from that situation, I didn't have that situation.I wouldn't have the experience.I wouldn't have the knowledge and I wouldn't have this trend from it.
Yeah.Now that I want to stay on that because most people know your story, but maybe they need to be right.Many may not, you know, people that are new to my show or, or new to you, but this whole thing that you are, this man you've become.
was really born out of a situation you couldn't change with your friend, right?Like the beginning of this version of Trent Shelton.
And I think it's probably a great time in the show for you to tell that story because I think there's a lot of people that are in situations they can't change right now, combined with the fact that they're not sure what their purpose is or what their passion is or what to do about it.
And you've become one of the biggest influencers in the world through what most people would view and was a tragedy with a friend of yours.So take everyone through that part of your story.
It's the perfect time in the show, because I think they can see themselves in your story, even though the situations are different.
Absolutely.I was a college teammate, college roommate.Even more than that, one of my closest friends in college, his career. got cut short, football player.And what I mean, got cut short.He went through some trials, some relationship things.
He left a football team and, you know, he joined the military and nothing wrong with that.But I just know that for him in the conversations he was selling, he was unhappy just being around him.I could just tell something was different. 2011.
I got a call one night, I was actually on my way to our other best friend's house.And it's ironic because me and my best friend were just talking about him.It's like, man, we need to link up with Ant.
Got a call from a girl who actually knew us at Baylor. But she worked at the coroner's office.She said, hey, Trent, Anne is here.And I didn't put two and two together.I was like, OK, where?Where is he at?He's like, he's here.
And I was like, what are you talking about?I worked at the coroner's office.He's here.And it still didn't register.Make a long story short, Anne had committed suicide.They found him three days later with all the...
memories in front of him, pictures of people, um, you know, his football things and, you know, he shot himself in the head.And in that moment, uh, it hurt because, you know, when you lose somebody, the first thing you go to is guilt.
The first thing you go to is regret and ask yourself, man, I wish I would have, I wish I would have done more.And in that moment, I knew that there was nothing I could have done more, you know, since the situation had happened.
Uh, I remember going to the service man.And, and I'm glad that you said this because being a speaker, being whatever people want to call me, titles, author, all this stuff that people give me, this wasn't something that I wanted to do.
This wasn't something that I sought out to say, this is a great business idea.Let me do this.No, it wasn't.It was my promise to him at his funeral, my promise.And I love what you say, man.
you know, keeping that promise to yourself is so, so important.My promise to him was like, and I'm gonna live the rest of my life to help people with their self worth.
So when people see my videos and they say, Trent, man, like you talk about releasing things from your life or getting rid of toxic things from your life.This is why, because he had toxic things in his life that he felt like he had no life anymore.
And he felt like there was no reason to go on.And so it was my promise to him.And from that day, And I committed myself for the rest of my life.
And I want to be clear about that, Ed, because I just feel like we live in a generation now where I don't want to, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to, you know,
step on any, or I don't mind stepping on people's toes, but I don't want to, you know, make people feel a certain type of way by saying this.
And, you know, hopefully I have, you know, you have your insecurities to the side, but a lot of people, you know, when they sign up for certain things, it's for external reasons.
It's because they see, am I led with, you know, this following, they see Trent showing with this, but they don't know what we have endured and what we still endure while we're going through it.That's right.
They don't have a deep rooted reason of why they want to do what they do.And every time, opportunity to quit, opportunity to throw in the towel, opportunity to detour to something else, to change.
You know, there's people that's on there and I, I want to be clear.It's okay to, you know, change different things.
But if you're just changing because it's hard, because things ain't adding up because you're not getting the likes and the views and the money, all that stuff.I see a lot of that.And for me, I said, there's no negotiation with this.Yes.
Like I'm burning the boats, burning the bridge, and I'm signing up for this forever. So every time I want to quit, man, I picture his face and it makes me go even harder.
I hope everybody just hears what he just said.I mean, it's easy to hear it in hindsight.This guy's a football player.Right.And kind of then trying to find where what am I going to do with my life?
Imagine this, that because of this tragedy in his life, a situation, as we said in the previous conversation, wasn't controllable.
And he ends up becoming, through grabbing his cell phone and just starting to talk about this stuff, one of the biggest influencers on the planet.
Hundreds of millions of views, probably over a billion if you added up all your content now, all of it combined.
One of the most sought after speakers on the planet, podcaster, author, guy I've had on, I've had I think three people on my show only two times.He's one of them.And that gives you an idea of how highly I regard Trent.
And a lot of you that are listening to this, you're thinking, I don't know what my passion is.Here's a place to look, and it's not always there. look for a real pain point for you.
It's a really, it's not always there, but you go, what's a real pain point?Like for me, my dad was an alcoholic, my low self-esteem.That's the pain point of my life has become my work.
That's that thing Trent just used, deep rooted reason to keep going when you're not successful originally.That's why this pain, he always says, turn it into a purpose.That's usually where your purpose is coming from, is a place of pain from you.
That's why you see some of these influencers that are super fit, that used to be super heavy.It was a pain point. My guest today is The Undertaker, a.k.a.Mark Calloway.So, Mark, thanks for being here, brother.No, thanks for having me, man.
I'm excited.One of the things that I noticed about you, brother, on that 30-year arc was how hard you are on yourself. how self-aware you are, particularly as it opens.
I won't give the whole thing away, but it opens up with your match with Roman Reigns.And you were injured at the time and, you know, maybe not at the top of your game.And to watch you watch you back in that video, it made me emotional.
I was out on my balcony alone.It was like 11 o'clock last night.And I literally got tears in my eyes because I so admired your self-reflection, your awareness, and your desire.
Even at that time, you're probably 52, probably, in your 50s already, right?He's 55 years old, guys, and if you're watching YouTube, look at this man's physique, right?
But talk about that, like setting that standard for yourself, being aware, you setting the highest standard for yourself, not Vince, not someone else, but you.
Yeah, I'm my toughest critic and I always have been.You got everybody telling you through the course of your career, especially when you're coming up, oh man, you're great, you're this, you're that.And I mean, yeah, that's fine.
And, but you have to, you've got to take that and you have to put it aside.And it's like when I, when I watched them back when I was coming up and I'd watch my matches back, good, bad and different.I always had to watch them alone.
because I didn't want any feedback from anybody else saying, Oh man, that was, that was great.That was, Oh man, when, how did you do that?That was so cool.
You know, I wanted to watch, even on the good stuff, I wanted to watch and see what I did wrong.I wanted to know what, okay, in that situation, what could I have done better to make that match better?
And that's, like I said, that's how you continue to grow.The Roman match at WrestleMania, that was tough.And what was so good about the doc was that was the actual first time that I watched it back.
being later in my career, I was at that point when I watched it back, I was pretty much done.I was like, I can't my body's give out on me.I can't.And I have to start thinking long term after 30 plus years.
And so that was really raw and real because I knew.I knew it was gonna be tough to watch.And then having to do it in that environment with cameras on me, and it was- And out of character too, right?Completely out of character, right?
So what you got is Mark thinking in his head, like, you know, there's a lot of things that I wanted to say, Obviously, that would have been bleeped and edited because I was so disappointed.
And not just disappointed for me, I was disappointed for Roman in that sense.
Because it was my opportunity to give him something that was gonna push him, you know, that was gonna push him to a higher level.And it didn't, I didn't deliver on that.And I can't make excuses.Yes, I was banged up and beat up, but I was there.
So, you know, I have a response, in my mind, I have a responsibility.If my name is on the page, then you gotta go.And I was just, I got, I knew when, I knew in January that I was physically,
I was physically not going to be at my best, but it was too late at that point.Like, I'd already committed, it's already down, this is what's going to happen.
And I was scrambling, trying to figure out how to, you know, how I was going to make this work.And it just, I was, yeah, I was thoroughly disappointed. And then there we go.Then the documentary kind of gets, gets rolling.
Cause initially, you know, initially it was just, I had those guys there to, to cover that weekend.Oh, is that right?That's all it was going to be.It was all it was going to be.Cause I said, cause I thought that was going to be it.Yeah.
The stuff with the hat and the coat, everything in the ring, all that was, that was just raw and real.And, um,
You know, so I just, I'm not gonna get another chance to catch the stuff backstage and my interactions with my peers and Vance, and I just wanted that and not knowing what we were gonna have, but I knew that I wasn't gonna have another chance to get it.
Yeah.Guys, I gotta tell you, Mark's being humble.I don't care if you're a WWE fan or not, if you're a fan of achievement, of redemption, of comebacks, which a lot of people need right now,
learning about a beautiful marriage and how it can make a man stronger.Uh, you should go watch this.I got to tell you the last ride, I watched the entire thing.
And the thing that, you know, the reason that the show is called max out and Mark persona, you come up maxing out a career.That's the definition of Mark's life in the WWE as the undertaker.He's maxed out that career.
And I'm, I have a funny feeling he's not done, which we'll talk about at the end, but,
But I got to tell you all something, what he's describing here, guys, this not believing your press clippings thing, not buying into all the rah-rah and hype and accolades you get, I talk a lot about is your will to win for sale.
And yeah, people can lose their will to win when they lose. But you can lose your will to win when you win.In other words, enough accolades, enough money, enough success.It buys your will to still want to get better.
It buys your will to want to improve.The thing that I love about Mark and watching him was you can't buy this man's will to win.And I think that's late. to the 30 year plus career.
The other guys, the accolades, the success, the access to different things at some point stole their will to prepare.I'm not doubtful that you didn't get off track a couple of times, but you kept getting back on track.
And I got to ask you, because even as you're talking, it's a little odd for me to talk to you as Mark, because I think unlike, this is why The Last Ride is so interesting too.You've done very few interviews ever, Nye, as the character.
Did you take that to the extreme?Like, I'm just, I ran into you in an airport when I was very young.I'll tell you about that in a minute, but. Like you were in character at the airport when I was there.We were at a baggage claim guys.
And I don't know how old I was.Mark and I aren't even that far apart in age, but I was on like one of my first business trips.I was at a baggage claim.I never came, I didn't say anything to you, but I watched you interact with the fans first.
You had your bag with you for about 40 minutes, brother.And you've probably done this hundreds of times.And I watched you talk to every single fan, take every single picture, shake every single hand.And I watched him look them in the eye too.
And I said, I like this dude. But you look like The Undertaker, not with the eye makeup on, but it seemed like you were kind of halfway in character.Am I crazy, or did you do that in real life when you went out?
No, I live this thing.I really did.When I started, and this character was so unique, especially for the time period, Vince had all these over-the-top characters.
And he gives me this, the whole, the original likeness, the name was all Vince's brainchild.And he gave it to me.And he said, this is your opportunity.And so I took it from there.
So, you know, when we developed, when I started developing the character, It's like, there's only one way that this is going to work.
And it was a lot simpler back then because there, you know, there wasn't cell phones and people recording everything that you do.But I said, I've got to be this for this to work.
I can't be that on TV and then be at the airport in a Hawaiian shirt, you know, slapping high fives.And because it was too big to me, it was too big a disconnect.
And there was a lot of opportunities that I was presented with early on that I passed on.Like people thought I was absolutely nuts, but you'd have to realize that this was my passion.
Like being a professional wrestler, being with the WWE, that was me right there.I mean, that's what my focus was.And yes, I had opportunities to go and do a lot of different things, but In my head, like, okay, this is my passion.
Now, how am I going to go off and do this and be this completely different character and then come back and expect people to buy into what I was doing?
There's all the elements of being the greatest.So he's being humble, but he's the greatest of all time.He's the most respected guy in the locker room, most longevity.
By the way, he's not going to tell you this, kind of known as being involved in maybe three of the top three matches of all time, also has one guy in common, him.And guys, forget what you do.You're an engineer, listen to this.
You're a schoolteacher, listen to this.You're an entrepreneur.There are elements that he's giving you that are the pieces to being great.And one of them, I'll help him say this because he's got so much humility, is his loyalty. It's his loyalty.
When he's saying he passed on things, let me be specific.He passed on movie roles and things like that that he could have done out of character.
There were times where he was offered more money to leave the organization, like other guys did, that were hot.And he stayed and was loyal.And I think loyalty is a very undervalued commodity in becoming a leader.
and you're sort of a leader in the locker room for that organization.I got to think that, and I'd like you to talk about both these things, Mark.
One is being a leader and the way you do it, because I get the feeling you're not a rah-rah dude, jump up and down and you know, all that, but you are a leader in the organization.And then since we're on that topic,
Talk about the very unique relationship you have with the overall leader of the organization, Vince McMahon.It seems that that's become a special friendship forged through loyalty, probably more than anything.
And I got to think that friendship's been both good to his career and your career as well.So speak to those couple things.
Yeah, absolutely.So as far as, you know, being the leader, it was never really It was never really something like I tried to pursue.It just kind of happened through the years.
And I fell into this unique position where the boys, the wrestlers, they saw what the business meant to me and that the business always came first.No matter what, the business came first.When we're out on the road, obviously,
your family comes first, but in a business sense.I don't care how late we stayed out, whatever we did nightlife-wise, it did not affect the next day's performance.
If it did, then you knew you were going to get pulled aside and say, look, if you can't handle this, then maybe you shouldn't be doing this.Because at the end of the day, it depends on what we do for our audience the next day.
guys appreciated that, but they knew like, okay, Hey, you know, takes one of us, he goes out and he has a good time just like everybody else.But at bell time, all that goes out the window until after it's all over with.
And so, yeah, so there was this, I had, and then I had the, also I had the trust of what we call the office, you know, there's the office and then there's the boys.Somehow another, I kind of landed in the middle.
Like, I was always accepted as one of the boys, but the office knew that they could trust me.
And there were a lot of times, like whoever our talent relations VP was, there was a lot of times they would come to me and say, hey, this is, you know, we're having this issue.And I could go to the guys or a guy or a person, pull them aside,
They say, look, man, you know, I understand.And they appreciate that because they know that I've been through every everything possible to go through.So, you know, it wasn't like, oh, well, you know.
Undertaker is a stooge for the office and he's trying to, you know, they trusted me.So I had that trust on each side.But I could many times I could talk to somebody and say, Hey, look, this is this is their perspective.
UK, I understand your perspective.Because I'm, you know, I'm talent, right?I'm Tom, I'm with you.
So a lot of times that happened and I could divert bigger issues with guys if they could kind of get over, you know, if they could get over the ego and then they knew and they trusted me enough, like, well, you know, Taker's not gonna screw me over.
So it worked out, it worked out really nice.And then with Vince and the loyalty and everything else, I, so I was told by WCW, I was told, I'd been there for about a year, my contract was coming up, and I went in to renegotiate my contract.
And I wasn't looking for a huge bump, but I was looking for, you know, I'd been, I had a pretty good year, and I was just looking for a slight, just a slight bump.
And I was told by, you know, Jim Hurd, who was running the company at the time, Ole Anderson, and Jim Barnett, they looked me square in my eyes, And they said, you're a great athlete, but no one's ever gonna pay money to watch you wrestle.
Seriously, okay, that's all I needed to hear.So Vince, so I get a meeting with Vince and he eventually gives me that opportunity.And that's all he ever promised me was an opportunity.
He never told me, Hey, you're going to be, you're going to be this guy here for 30 years and do all these things.He said, I'm going to give you an opportunity.And then, but that's all it always remembered.
When I did become a commodity, when WCW wanted me back, you know, they wanted to pay me big bucks cause they were paying everybody big bucks.Yeah.You know, it was like, no, I can't do that.
You know, they're offering me a lot more money, but this is the man who made me and And that's just the way it is.
And then obviously, we've been through so much together, professionally, personally, that most times now, I don't even deal with Vance Hartley when it comes to business.
Our relationship, 90% of the time, is more that of friends than it is of business. unless there's a special ask that nobody else wants to ask me to do, then you're the only one that's going to be able to get him to do it.
Well, I think what comes to you second nature, which is loyalty, isn't second nature for most people.And I think that's one of the other elements.I see Michelle sitting back there.
So there's Michelle, everybody.And when y'all get the chance to watch this docuseries, you'll get it, OK?But I'm glad you joined at the perfect time.Thank you for doing that.
What I want to shift to involves both of you, and I want you both to comment on it.Let's be real.We just had COVID, right?The economy's in the tank, you know, things aren't going good.
There's millions of people that have had a job and lost it right now.There's entrepreneurs that had a business that are losing it.There's people that got really fit the last couple of years.I've been able to go to a gym in three, four months.
They've lost a little of their fitness.Bottom line is there's millions of people around the world right now that need to make a comeback. And as I was prepping for this, and then I watched the last ride, I'm like, oh, man, all right, this is perfect.
Because what really happened was, guys, when you watch this, it really becomes a part of how these two people in love with each other unify and create a comeback in his career.Because Michelle is and was a WWE superstar in her own right, everybody.
And we'll talk a little bit about that in a minute, too.But talk a little bit about the comeback, because it's pretty cool when you watch it. I don't know if it was a broken down C2 repair place or whatever that thing was that you were training in.
Yeah, that place hadn't been touched.
It was not sanitary, I can tell you that.
I don't think anybody had even walked in that place in over 15 years.
That just blew my mind because I'm like, the greatest WWE superstar of all time ends up making his comeback in a place that's like no one's been in for like, it looked like they're in the middle of nowhere, like an abandoned whatever they were in, you know, and that's where the comeback started.
But let's talk about that for a minute.I want to set the stage for everybody for whatever your career is. This is a man who's climbed to the top of his industry, right?And Michelle's also been at the top of that industry.
He ends up, he's gonna have his last match and it doesn't go the way he wants it to.And over time, it gnaws at him a little bit.Like anybody, he wants to make a comeback.
It's like many of you right now listening to this, driving in your car, or you're finally back on a treadmill at the gym listening to this. And imagine after 30 years, his body's beaten up.He's already been to the top.He doesn't need to do it.
He's already the most admired dude in the sport, yet he makes a comeback.What were some of the things mentally that you both had to do in order to create the mindset where you're willing to go do that work again, like you changed your body.
The Roman Reigns match to the comeback, Matt, Mike, you just physically look like a different person, right?So talk a little bit mentally what you had to do to do that.What were some of the elements?And both of you can comment on it.
I think one thing that's key for both of us, it's a blessing and a curse, is we're both completely stubborn.
Sometimes though, that helps out like in situations like this, you know, we both have the mentality of you gonna do something, you're gonna get it done and do it right and go after it, you know, and just give it your all.
And I think, you know, being stubborn helped.
Yeah, I definitely wasn't gonna let that be the last memory that people had of me.So I knew, you know, as you get older, You have to accept the fact that you're going to have to put in twice the work and get half the results.
You have to accept that fact. So we had to make the mental decision like, okay, if I'm going to do this, we got to go.And she's like, all right, if that's what you want to do, then we're going to do it.
So on her end, she drops everything that she's got to do to make sure that I've got meal prep, and I've got all my appointments lined up for rehab, stretching, all these different things.She took all that worry off the table.
And then, so then it's just the training aspect.And then the training was obviously getting my hip fix, which was covered pretty well in the doc.That allowed me to train at a much different level.
And then that was kind of a, that alone was a breath of fresh air.Although it's a, you know, that's one little part of the, of my body that I have issues with, that was the main one.
Was there doubt, Mark, like, hey, I'm gonna come back and have a second match I'm not proud of and I'm gonna embarrass myself or something like that?
Because I think a lot of people right now that are thinking about making a comeback, they're like, if I fall on my face again, I don't know if I can handle doing that again.Did you have any of that?And Michelle, were you worried about that?
Um, no, but I know how he operates.And I was worried that he was, I mean, knowing him, I think it's safe to say you're probably thinking that it was in the back of your head, which is the reason you're going back in the first place.
Because you weren't happy of, you know, from the last and just kind of out there to prove something.So, um, I knew he wanted to do it, but I think in the same regard, we're both the type of people you can't fear failure.
If you're going to do it, go out there, you know, learn from the past mistakes.And like he just said, train the best way possible for his body to get into the ring.And, you know,
It looked to me like, and I think there's a huge lesson in this guy.So I'm seeing, I want y'all to watch this thing.I'm not pumping the documentary.I'm just telling you, it'll make an impact on you.
And I, a WWE fan, of course it would, but the millions of you listening to me right now that aren't, it'll make an impact on you and where you are in your life.You're going to see, you're going to see a lot more of that.
You're going to see what, they're both really humble people.You're going to see what Michelle did.I think what made the comeback work, guys, I don't think you can dabble in your comeback.Like they threw the kitchen sink.
It was like shock and awe at this thing.All hands on deck.The whole family rallied.They get this place set up.
Even the little details, Mark, with like the banners of the other dudes and you up in there, like you're looking, you said at one point you said, those guys are watching me. Right?
Like to me, man, like that was, it was like a, almost like a real life Rocky movie for real.And then everybody, and I'll warn you this, then he comes back and he does great, but it's not even really what he wished for.
It wasn't like it wasn't, it was a five minute match where he trained for 30, 40 minutes.And so even when you get your comeback, the first time you come back, it may not even be exactly what you wanted.And then he went past that moment.
True Mark.It wasn't what you were looking for. Yeah, I trained, I trained for a 45 minute all out back and forth war and was so ready for that.
And then I got there the day of and that's, that's, you know, it's going to be five minutes and you're going to be a romping, stomping dragon.And, you know, and that's what we sell.
I mean, we sell, we, we, we sell entertainment, we don't sell time and,
But we were just talking the other day about how life and wrestling matches are so parallel, right?Like, you know what your ultimate finish is going to be or what you would like it to be, but you're going to get knocked down.
You're going to get beat up.You're going to have like a little hope spot where there's this ray of light, like, Oh, I can do this.You're going to get knocked back down again.You know, then you have this comeback.
And it can be this great comeback and you can finish on top, or it can be a great comeback and then you just get knocked back down.And what do you do from there?You know, you can, it's your choice.
What happens if you decide to stay down, then that's, that's, that's kind of going to dictate the rest of your life, really, if you accept it.
if you accept where you're at, I couldn't accept after watching that match back, I couldn't accept leaving on those terms.And then I knew where I wanted to be and I knew like, okay, this is what we gotta do to get to the point where I wanna be.
That's powerful, man.Like Malcolm X has this great quote, it says, that which you do not hate, you will eventually tolerate. You almost have to hate where you're at.And that's not a negative thing to want to move out of it.
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These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. That was a great conversation, and if you want to hear the full interview, be sure to follow The Ed Milet Show on Apple and Spotify.Links are in the show notes.
You'll never miss an episode that way.Tim Grover, welcome back to the show, brother.Thank you so much.
At the beginning of the book, guys, this is an unbelievable story about your last conversation with Kobe Bryant, just your relationship with him, because I think a winner, I do think of Kobe and MJ, 11 championships between them.
Tell everybody a little bit about that conversation.
You know, Kobe and I, we text often.He was no longer playing basketball.He had moved into the business world.Already won an Oscar.Wrote an amazing children's book.And we text back and forth.We tried to see each other.He was busy.I was busy.
And say, how you doing?He'd be, I'm good.How you doing?I'm chasing the next win.He's chasing the next win.And we were going to get together.The all-star game was going to be in Chicago.
And our plan was he was gonna come in town, you know, to support and some business stuff and so forth.So we had planned a get together.And he said he'll text me when I'm in town.I said, hey, I'm not going anywhere.
And... Sorry, brother.I'm the only guy who gets Tim Grover to cry on the show.You're good.
It never happened.Yeah.It never happened.
He said something to you at the end of that conversation too, right?Something about winning or I'm going to keep winning or something like that.
Chasing the next win?Chasing the next win.Chasing the next win.
What was it like for you, Tim?
Because obviously the emotion on your face is, this is not Tim.You're not a crier.No. I'm curious what, when you heard the news originally, by the way, I was with him the week before.Is that crazy?I'll have to tell you that in a minute.
But did you just not believe it?Or was it just like the breath left your body?So what happened was, you know,
I get some information, somebody shoots me a text, I was like, oh, fake news, this is not true, this is not true.
And then more media comes in, more people, then people that were like really close to him, like out in the LA area and so forth said, hey, we just wanna let you know that this is, and I was like, it can't be, it can't be.
It didn't hit me until like three days later.Really?Three days, I was just like literally sleeping. And I got up in the middle of the night, and I was just like, he's gone. Because you just didn't want to believe it.
You just didn't want to believe it.
Do you think, because obviously you being such a close confidant of his, and I get what you mean, like time happens in life.You're not texting every single day.You're both busy guys, but you don't have to when you're great friends.
You and I even, we text a lot, but even when we don't for a month or two, it's like right back.It's not personal.
It's never personal, like, you're busy, hey, your success comes in, send your thumbs up, everybody, you don't have to text anybody when they know that you're actually excited for every win they get and every win that you get.
You're like, they already know what you're there for.Now, when they do something exceptional, you're like, hey, I just saw what you did, or something funny, but yeah, exactly.
I think something with him, like, because it grips so many people that aren't even basketball fans, I think it's when someone lives,
So full out that when they're no longer living the impact of that passing is greater for some reason, you know He was so alive So to make the transition from winning on the basketball court to winning in the business environment And then he got it.
You got a chance to see you know when he was no longer that basketball player how close he was with his family Yeah
You know, how he supported, how he supported everyone, you know, his daughter's basketball games and the volleyball games and everything.And it was just like he was a much approachable person.
You know, everybody used to see this rigid individual on the court.And he was so much, he was smiling and he was talking to other players and so forth.I always say that his next move, his next win was he had two things he wanted to do.
And I have no proof of this, but just knowing his mentality.One was he wanted his daughter to be the first female to play in the NBA.No kidding.Not the WNBA, the NBA.Wow.That's what he was getting her ready for.
And the second one was like, he was like, I already own L.A.from a basketball standpoint. I want to erase the basketball thing.I want to own LA.
No kidding.He was that driven to continue to win.Yes.Which is the theme in the book.
See, I'm going to tell you is you'd be proud of him, by the way, because I know you were there's intermittent and I did not know Kobe well, but our daughters played in the same volleyball league.So the week before he passed, we were in the same gym.
I remember you telling this story.Yeah three and ends up these two volleyball tournaments are long as you know, you know volleyball.Yes But anyway long story short There's three dads left.
It's almost 10 o'clock at night left in this gym Me him and another dude who's a good friend of mine and it was just striking for me.I watched this It's the black mama man.So he was a killer, right?
But I watched him and I have no idea why it's like really struck me I'm always evaluating him up you and I talked about it Yeah, my good dad.How's your daughter?
You know, like we're always evaluating these things and and I watched him other end of the gym I watched him with his daughter and he's carrying the baby and his one arm and Just the game was over and he was like kind of just caressing his other daughters back just watching him I remember literally going
I don't hug Bella enough.Like, I don't hug her enough, you know?And he was such, I mean, because he's a man, he's a flawed man.He really changed, you know?That's something to be so proud of.Anyway, long story short, because to me that's winning.
Winning is improvement.Winning is growing.Winning is ultimately, he was a better man on his last day than he was in the middle of his career.
And when you said flawed, everybody thinks of flawed as a negative. We're all flawed.Right.We are all flawed.Accept it.Use it.Learn from it.And be like, okay, this is of who I am.This is who I am.I'm not trying to be somebody else.What's your flaws?
What makes you exceptional?What makes you different?That's what allows you to win what other people don't want to win.There's a people that can say, hey, We're flawed.We've both wrote best-seller books.And people won't know this about you.
They know this about me, but you shared this when we were at RIT Syndicate one time. You can't spell.
That's such a great point.
Those are our flaws.And what do we do?We just laugh at it.And we write bestselling books.We laugh at it.I got knocked out in a spelling bee, which is in the book, and the word they asked me to spell was ham.
That's so awesome, dude.That's so awesome.I'm crying.So you cried on sad stuff, I cry on funny stuff.
I just, I think about it, man, like you say something in the book, there's all these lessons and they're all listed like as number one, which I like too.He's like, Hey, there's not 21, there's not 28.
There's like, there's just an unlimited list of things compiled on this book and winning.And it made me think of Kobe because You know, when he walked out of the gym that day, I've said this to you too, but he had six days left to live.
And I just, you know, what if the world would have, if he could just have a whisper when he got into that car with his family that night, Kobe, six days left to live.
Yeah.Three days later, Kobe, three more days, three more days.
You know, and the one thing I do feel like about people that win is, in the book, because Kobe was doing this to the very end, you talk about the sprint versus marathon thing on winning.
Just talk about that, because I think Kobe did that till right in the last moment.
Right at the end.You know, Kobe had this great line that he used to use all the time.He goes, rest at the end, not in the middle.Rest at the end, not in the middle.So to me, Life and winning is a bunch of sprints within a marathon.It's a fact.Yeah.
A bunch of sprints within a marathon.And you can't see the end line.Like in a marathon, you know where the end line is. That win, that race may have an end line, but there's another start line right after it.
For people that are really driven, and this is not about money, and this isn't about fame, this is about, you could be winning as a school teacher, you could be winning as an entrepreneur, you could be winning in business, you could be winning as an athlete, as a waiter, whatever it is, a waitress, whatever it is, it's that every single time you sprint to that finish line,
There's another start line that's coming and that's why it never ends It's a marathon that just keeps going going and going and I try to tell people listen I'm not an avid runner.I used to be in my much younger days not avid.
I used to enjoy it You see the times of the The best marathons, they're running.Insane.Insane.They're basically sprinting.They're sprinting.They are sprinting.
It's one of the things, Tim, that you say in the book that I think is super profound.I think a lot of people think there's some pacing to winning. But the truth is, there's not really pacing, is there?
The best are full speed, knowing it's a long race, but there's only really one gear for them.Or am I wrong about that?
No, no, you're absolutely right.But everyone looks at the physical condition.Are you mentally prepared to sprint every single day?Are you mentally prepared to sprint every single day?And for how long?Because Somebody else is sprinting.
You don't want them to get what should be your win ends up being somebody else's win.And everyone says hard work will get you closer to that win.How many individuals have you known that you've outworked and they got that win?
Winning has no loyalty to you.It has no loyalty to me.It has no loyalty to anybody.You can outwork somebody.You can outstudy them.You can do all these different things.Yeah.
You can apply for a job, and somebody who's less qualified ends up getting that job.So winning has no loyalty to you.
It's just like, here it is.This is where the book is so, I call it like hardcore, because that's your style too.It's like, look.
There's so many things in the book where you talk like that about you know Hey, listen winning doesn't care about you winning winning will lift you up and then slap you back down again, right?
There's all of these unbelievable and I think as somebody who wants to win more I've done some winning who wants to win more when you read it if you've had any wins in your life you Confirmation of truth when you read something that you know is true.
It just instantly sits on you as a fact, right?and so Here's one of the things you say in the book.You say, Batman, all over the book, I'm highlighting and writing stuff down.For people I know, for myself, I read this to Max last night.
About 1 a.m., he goes, Daddy.I said, wake up.I'm reading Grover's book.He's like, bring it back with you tonight, which I'm going to do. Give them this one.Okay, I will give them the clean one.Thank you.
Winning requires you to be different and different scares people.So if you're worried about what others will say, the long-term effects, the sacrifices you'll make, the sleep you lose, your family being angry, I can't help you with that.
There's nothing quote typical about lifestyle and choices you have to make.Winning is inside all of us, but for most, that's where it will stay, trapped under a lifetime of fear and worry and doubt.The race
To speak of the sprint to greatness has no rules to protect you.Nothing says you're gonna lose You're gonna get you're not gonna get nothing says you're not gonna lose.
Nothing says you're not gonna get hurt You're not gonna do all this work for nothing.There's no guarantee.It'll be fair Most likely it will not be fair.
You'll lose at the buzzer You lose to someone who didn't work as hard as you did you lose on a bad call or a bad place?Someone else will get the job a pandemic will wipe out your season your bank account your career yet
The prize at the end of that race remains so compelling, so addictive, so gorgeous, we keep running and stumbling and sacrificing and competing to catch it.That's exactly what you're talking about, right?
It's exactly what I'm talking about. I couldn't describe it any other way.You just look at it.It's not, everybody said, how many times you've heard it?It's not fair.It's not supposed to be fair.It's not, it's not supposed to be fair.
Winning is not supposed to be fair.Life is not fair.There's nothing that's going to guarantee you that win.
It's, but the only thing that's going to guarantee you that loss is if you don't get in this race, how many people, and you talk about this all the time about the fears and the emotions and like, you know, just, Mm-hmm getting just going for it.
Just like here it is Look at yourself You've moved three different times in Probably the last six months for whatever reasons you've had all right, and You've really packed up and move like here.I'm going here.I'm going here you got people that
won't move themselves out of a chair.And you've literally moved families, lives.And there is literally a fear behind every single one of those, but there was no doubt.Right.That's really well said.There was no doubt.
That's really everything that you've done and everything that I've done.There's always been a little fear.And the fear is what allows us to be like, you know what, I'm gonna throw myself over the ledge.
I'm going, I'm going, I'm going to do this, but I have no doubt of what the end result is going to be.
That's so amazing you say that.I was with a group of guys, influencers, one of them you were with this morning, about four weeks ago, and kind of went around the table like, what moves you?
And one guy's like, hey, my dreams, you know, my confidence, my this.And so it got to me, and I think probably at that, well, anyway, I'll just say that at that table, I kind of, I said, hey, I'll be honest with you, I'm still afraid.
I'm still afraid.They're like, you're afraid?You got this?You got that?I said, no, man, I'm still afraid.And it's a real afraid.It's not something I'm trying to conjure up.It's like a real afraid that I have.
However, I actually think successful people have this really unique nuance of like tons of self-confidence combined with enough humility to want to keep working and learning. It's a really unique look.
We both know people that are super confident, but don't have that dose of humility where they want to work hard and want to be coached, right?
And then you also have the people with all the humility in the world, but they don't have the confidence and they're not going to win either, right?
coach people at all different levels.Your most successful people are your most coachable.
A fact.A fact.What about when you would train Kobe, you say something in the book, like when you first met him, the first workouts or whatever, like he didn't want you to make it easy on him.He had no expectation of that, right?No.
I mean, just like, hey, listen.
And the thing that he said was unique about this, When we were starting to work out, one of the reporters asked him, said, oh, you hired Tim Grover, Michael's trainer.He goes, well, how do you feel about that?
Kobe, and I'm going to use a little language here, he goes, I don't know.He ain't done shit for me.He goes, I'm not going to judge him by what he did last time.I want to know what he's done for me. We relish that.
Do you relish what Jordan told him about you?Oh, yes.Tell him, it's okay, sell the language.Remember what Jordan said about you to him?Yeah, so he just said... Kobe asked him, what about this guy?
He goes, he really knows his stuff, but he goes, he's the biggest asshole you'll ever meet.
It's a great compliment, right?
It's a great compliment.It's a great compliment, because how many people, when they meet winners, fold? they become yes men, yes people.
And then you have to be the person that holds them accountable.And it's funny, I just, as you said earlier, I call people out, I want people to call me out on my bullshit, I call them out on their bullshit.You've done it with me before.Yeah, I have.
I do it with everyone.And I do it not out of a place out of hate, not jealous or anything like that.Listen, The one thing that you've offered me that no one's ever offered me is access to your jet.
Now, if I would have came when I put you in check, if that was coming out of hate, That offer wouldn't be there.You know it's coming out of love.
By the way, you also have helped my son unselfishly.And by the way, never told me that you were doing it.Only through him do I find these things out that Tim does.That's what I meant by a real man.I think the winners have this thing.
By the way, you should use it.You're the type of person that will never take me up on it, and you should. But I have to tell you guys that I think one of the things that the winners have is they lose this expectation that's going to be easy.
They lose the expectation that they're going to be liked.They lose the expectation that it's going to be perfect.Like once you've sort of given up, you've actually surrendered to the fact this is not going to be easy.People aren't going to like me.
I am going to be judged.I am going to be disliked.It's not all that bad when it starts happening to you.
And that's what winning's about.In order to win, those are all the things that are in the unforgiving race.So you already know they're there.You know they're there.And then people are still distracted by it.
You know everything that you just mentioned is in this race. So if you already know what's there, you know what your opponents are.Deal with it.
You also, though, like there's a level even past that.Like every time I'm reading the book, I'm like, OK, oh, there's another level, another level, another level.And you articulate it.
You've been up close and you're including yourself to like the biggest winners in sports.So like there's layers to this that only someone in that type of proximity to it would know, too.But.
So many people are governed, like what we're really describing right now is they're governed by their emotions.Their emotions rule their lives, right?And you talk in the book about mindset and thoughts being bigger and more important than that.
So this is so huge what he's about to share with you right now, because right now, some of you, you're driving right now, or you're on a treadmill somewhere, or you're watching this on YouTube, and you're being governed by your emotions.
It's literally dictating the direction of your life, your effort, your belief level, your confidence, all of it. But the highest level winners do what?
Your mind has to be stronger than your feelings.Your mind has to be stronger than your feelings.Think about every poor decision you've made in your life.
There was more emotion that was involved in it than there was mind.Every single one of them.Think about it.It really was.Your feelings keep you in bed. Your mind tells you, get up.Think about it.
Every single day, your mind is the one that tells you, get up.And your feelings like, eh, an extra 30 minutes, just roll with it, don't worry about it.
I can tell you this, every bad decision I made has been ruled by emotion. Guess what?
You and I have both.You and I both.You're making me think.Every single one.Your mind has to be stronger than your feelings.Listen, it's not the popular decision.You are going to hurt.You are going to piss a lot of people off.Yep.
Are you going to piss them off for the short term?Are you going to piss them off for the long term?I've had so many individuals, athletes, that I used to train back in the day, and I used to tell them, you're not good enough to go to the NBA.
You would evaluate them and be willing to tell them?
I would say, you're not good enough, but you can make a ton of money overseas. Mm-hmm.I said, what do you want to do?
I said overseas you can make I said you can literally you could put have a very long career be extremely popular over there live a nice lifestyle and Be successful for numerous years.Mm-hmm.Go over.You don't know what you're talking about.
Okay, I'm telling you Ten years come by they're chasing the NBA dream.They don't make it I run into him and I come up to me and says I You're the only one that told me.You're the only one that told me.
Do you think the fact that they deny is interesting thought?Like you are candid with me, right?Like I actually look at, my dad was candid with me.So I, maybe it's because I played sports.I don't know.
But like, I look at people who are really candid and frank with me as like, that's actually real belief in love. 100%.But don't you think most people that don't win, and I'm not calling myself a winner, but I think most people that don't win don't view candor and direct feedback that way.
They view it as hate or criticism or you're rooting against me.Don't you agree?
I actually have very few people who are candid with me.
And those are some of my most cherished people in my life.
Right.Well, here's the thing.So, when's the best time for the truth?All the time. It's the best time for the truth, all the time.The truth should lead to more action.But what does it usually do?It leads to more emotions. Wow, that's really true.
So when you tell somebody the truth, so what's the first thing?Anybody in a relationship, you go in a relationship with business, personal, whatever it is, the first thing they always ask me, honesty.
Honesty is the most important, until you're honest.Until you're honest, yeah.Then the emotions get in, and then everything goes haywire.Then your mind still, your mind has to be stronger than your feelings.That's awesome.
I have one of the great fitness icons of all time right here, Mike O'Hearn.Thanks, brother.Thanks for being here, man.Thank you, man.So good to have you, man.Thank you.
Someone said to you, because I think, like, it's rare that you put someone who's the best on the planet at something in front of you, like, on the earth spinning right now.
And we said, who in the last 25 years, let's say, take that window of time, just that basic window of time, which is a fair window.
who's probably the healthiest, fittest person, the icon that sustained it, grown it, and got more fit, and also helped more people get there, too, that he trains with.It would be this human, right, sitting next to me.
So, what does that, I know we've talked a lot about it, but like, it's hard to describe yourself.I have a hard time doing it.It's like, I'm not even sure how I am.You know, I'm just that way, right?But let me ask you something, seriously.
What's that mindset Like, like, don't sugarcoat it, no BS, don't be humble.Is it just like you want to crush everybody?Is it you're trying to chase the best you?Is it just like this stacking of disciplines that's built you into this thing?
Like, what is it that's like this world-class mindset you hold?
Do you know?Um, I would say it's, it's, I want to be the very, the number one guy.I want people to be able to say, hey, I want to do a Mike O'Hearn.I want to be like Mike O'Hearn when I'm that.And, and, and whatever it is.
It's just that long period of time, and it's not just, I don't want you guys to sit there, and I guess I want people to live what I've lived, and stop giving the excuses, and stop saying, I'm 30 now, it's downhill from here.
I peaked, college, I peaked, and then it's down.It's like, there's a thing called science, and science will show you what's possible, what's not possible.There is something that's called heart, that can break that and something that can set it apart.
And I'm just saying that the one thing that we're doing now, and I'm lucky enough to be around, is to be around doctors and science and actually doing tests.Now going, why is it that I got to be able to do this for such a long period of time?
And not just as a average Joe, because everybody's like, as long as I can be healthy, fuck healthy.I'm sorry.It's all right.I bleeped that out.But be a freaking superhero for your whole life.Yes.
So, I guess for me, consistency is me describing myself, but the hunger to be the very number one.Yes, yes.
What's the next five or ten years look like for you, do you think?We know what the past looks like, we know what the present looks like.We're going to do more of these, but I'm going to have you back here in five years.
What do you think?I love the purchasing properties and commercial real estate.I love this, and it's something that Again, I think you agree with this.
You can be around your friends, but you need some elite people that are raising you up, and I've got that, and I've had that.
In the last 10 years, my life has completely changed to the point of where I'm doing all charity, and I'm around guys that are better than me in other facets, and they make you stand up and go, listen, this is great what you're doing, but I need you here.
This is what you need to do.Now you need Amanda. Yeah, and so, I've got that.You're gonna buy more property?You think we're seeing movies?More properties, leads in movies, and continue to travel the world and talk.Yeah.
Do you think you'd be even more fit?I do.Listen, as much as I got crazy this year, I already told my girl, and I said, I wanna even be better than I was for New Year's.I love this, brother.I love, you inspire me.
Thanks, man.No, you inspire me, you do.I appreciate that.You're inspiring to me.This is, I can tell you straight up.
That's a fun, That's a fun level.Oh, is this your ride?Yeah, this is how you get home.Helicopters coming in, guys.This is how you get home, right over the ocean.Yeah, we're going to do more of this.This went too fast, but just something that...
When you can push somebody that's already at a pinnacle level, that's badass.
It is badass, and that's why I try to surround myself with guys like you, and like you just said, that's part of the formula, everybody, is that you surround yourself with people who do make you better, whatever the industry is, it doesn't even matter.
They just make you want to be better by their example, not their yelling and screaming, right?Their example does.
Thank you for saying that, though.
It's a fact. The other thing I want to tell everybody that when you're listening to Mike, there's a uniqueness to him that I want to point out.It's that not only can he do these things, but he can articulate them.That's rare for an athlete.
It's rare for a business person to be able to articulate it.The reason I point that out to you is you can get Mike to come speak to your organization.You can have him come talk to your group.He can come do
He can do inspirational talks, fitness talks.This is someone that you want to bring into your company to have speak to you.And he's also somebody that just by following him on social media will alter your life.You will have no excuses.
You will be inspired, right?You will see one of the great lives being lived, but there's also all this fitness stuff, all this information out there.
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