Welcome to the CMO Chapter Podcast, where we dive deep into the dynamic world of chief marketing officers.Join us as we explore the careers, insights, and strategies of top marketing executives who shape the brands we know and love.
Whether you're a seasoned marketer, aspiring CMO, or simply just curious to understand what it really takes to step into the shoes of a CMO, this podcast is your backstage pass
to discovering what it's like to lead and innovate in the ever-evolving landscape of business.Stay tuned as we uncover the stories of the visionaries behind the brand.I am delighted to welcome Carl Winter.
I've known Carl now for seven years, maybe longer, eight years approximately.
Maybe, maybe, maybe that long.I can't remember.It's been that long we can't remember.
Yeah, maybe.I think that's it.So yeah, I wanted to welcome Carl to the podcast.So Carl, welcome.
Thank you for having me, Lucy.
You're very, very welcome.So I thought we'd kick things off.Do you want to introduce yourself?
I'm Carl Winther.I'm currently the CMO at Kogan.com.I've been here for about two and a half years.I'll go in reverse. chronological order.
Prior to Kogan.com, I was at a big company that no one's ever heard of, but they know the brands, Bapcore, which has brands like Autobahn, Midas, Opposite Lock, Autopro, Prior to that, I was actually working on my own as a part-time consultant.
I can talk about that a little bit more.Brief stint as CMO at Australia Post and then eight years as GM of Marketing and Digital at Officeworks, which is where I think we first ran into each other. And then prior to that was actually at Meijer.
At Meijer, the last role I had was Marketing Operations Manager, but I've had a 13-year career at Meijer.I actually started out in the buying team.In the toy buying team, starting out doing toy catalogs of all things.So there you go.
A career in marketing and all things retail and then of the last, I guess, 15, 16 years also including e-commerce.
So how long would you say you've been at sort of, you know, GM, CMO level now?I mean, is that been, am I right thinking it's almost like eight years?
No, so 2012 at Officeworks.So over 12 years, I was the, yeah, I started out as the, heading up the marketing department at Officeworks in 2012.
Yeah, wow.So I'm curious to know, and I'm just going to sort of tap into this.
So you strike me as someone who, for my interactions with you, you know, you've always been, I think, you know, a real sort of like solid head on the shoulder, know where to get to, cut through.
Have you always been very ambitious and driven to get to that top spot?
I don't think so, no.I've been determined to actually move ahead, but It wasn't, you know, and get the next role, the next thing, but there wasn't, Oh, I need to be a CMO.Otherwise my, my life is unfulfilled.
So it was all about, I think for me, it was always.What was more fulfilling was progression.Like it needed to be some form of progression.
Otherwise I was unsatisfied and that could be progression within a role or, you know, I've been, there was a long 10 years within roles.So I was at Meyer. for 13 years, and I had two or really three careers within Maya.
At Officeworks, I was there for eight years.Very unusual for me to then have these shorter stints, had a very short stint at Australia Post, but then I was at Batcore, and then for 18 months.
And then the reason I moved is because this opportunity came forward at Kogan.com to be their first CMO.
I think when it came down to it, that idea of progression and new challenges, I would have regretted not taking up this opportunity because of the size and the type of challenge, but also the learning opportunities that were available at kogan.com.
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.That's awesome.
Very early on, I guess, when, when maybe we go back to our Maya days, or even, you know, past that, as you've developed and gained experience, what challenges sort of did you face perhaps early on in your career that you'd say put you in a good position?
I've come throughout my career and I know that you might have listeners who aren't CMOs yet.You might have people that are CMOs.
I've come to realize that everything happens for a reason and you don't realize it or appreciate it at the time but it's become even when times are tough, it's a bit of a mantra that I have that everything is happening for a reason.
More specifically, I remember at Myer, so a little anecdote from when I was at Myer, I started out doing toy catalogs because I was doing a post-grad in marketing.
And, uh, I then moved into, I was doing toy catalogs, but I was actually in the buying area.So I was, it was fun role.
I got to play with tickle me almost, and, you know, get all the samples in for the catalogs and then go to the pre shoot pre production shoots and then make sure, but there was much more of an inventory management, like make sure we had stopped for when that catalog went out and then doing the post analysis on sales.
And actually through some of those, that analysis, I got identified as someone who could actually, I don't know, they knew how to use Excel.I think that was the only requirement.And I actually got promoted to becoming a planner.
Now, not an advertising planner, but a planner in terms of someone who oversaw inventory management, pricing management, stock control, stock turn. It was not something I was looking for.
It was not something I was interested in, but I enjoy retail and I saw it as a great challenge.Again, further progression.I was doing my post-graduate in marketing and that's what I loved and that's what I was passionate about.
But I thought this is good business knowledge and business learning.And I then started planning and I did that for two years.I'm not ashamed to say I hated it.I hated it with a passion.But two good things came from planning. One, I met my wife, Tick.
She was a fellow planner in another division and we actually met at the races, you know, through my connection with the races.So that's a story for another day.
But the other part that like I really hate, I'd go home and I'd be really sad and depressed about what I was doing.Why aren't I doing marketing?
But to answer your question specifically, the challenge was to keep the positive mindset and understand that that experience as a planner still sticks with me today in this current role as a CMO of one of Australia's top, if not Australia's top e-commerce retailer.
Because it's that understanding around how the P&L works, about how inventory management works, how pricing works, working with buying teams, just about knowledge around retail.
But it was a challenge and I found it hard to break through and want to get into the marketing area.So I guess the other part of that was when I was feeling down and depressed about what I was doing and I wasn't doing in my passions.
Again, the part of that story that got me into marketing was I actually just decided something needed to change.I wasn't going to be a victim.I was going to do something.I was just going to make a change and the universe would reward me.
And I was actually, this sounds crazy, I hated planning, but I took on a role to become the head of planning at a retailer that doesn't exist called Borders Bookstores.
I remember those guys.Yep.
And what happened is I was going to leave and someone who backed me at Meyer actually said, I heard you're leaving.No, you're not.And I said, no, no, no, I am.I need to get, I'm not happy.I need to make a change.He goes, you're not leaving.
And I said, yes, I am.And he goes, what are you passionate about?I'm like, well, I just need to make a change.I want to get closer to marketing.He said, give me 24 hours.
And he came back to me 24 hours later and said, here's a role I think you'd be really good at.And I was actually getting in on the ground floor of something called My One Loyalty Program before it even existed.
So I had to make the phone call back to the people who I said yes to, and that was my phone call to make. I'm sure as a recruiter you've had that before.
I don't know what you mean, never, never an answer.
And that was for me a real sliding doors moment but you know, I'd sort of look back on that time with fondness because A, all the skills and experience I got as a planner but also B, that you know, if you're not happy about something, be it in your role or be it something you're doing, take action and the universe will reward you because the worst thing is to sit there and be a victim around what's going on around you.
Yeah, I think, I think you've made a really valid point that because I was chatting to a marketing lecturer actually at Monash university last week.
And, you know, he was saying how, you know, some of his students quite early on, you know, they, they, you know, really stay away from numbers because they're not comfortable with mathematics, um, with maths, et cetera.
And he actually said to them, when you actually get into the employment world, keep those textbooks and keep the ones, especially on the modules that you're not good at, because you're going to need them.
And they're just that, put them on the shelf just to remind you, you know, what you're not good at.Cause it's probably going to be the element you're going to need more support in.
Um, but I think, you know, what a valid story because it's set you in early on in your career, understanding things like P and L's and budgets, which.
And profitability and where you make money and getting sales versus just getting, you know, sales at no profit versus getting sales at ultimate profit.And, you know, I was clearing stock.
I was, I was ahead of planning for an area of, um, uh, my actually Manchester.And I remembered, um, do you know what a valance is?
It's like a bed skirt.You know, I learned it to just be a stock issue because I remember I spent like a year and a half trying to clear all our balances.
But, you know, I got to understand, you know, in terms of pricing power and, you know, it's great to do a great ad, but what about if you've got no stock?It doesn't matter how good the ad is. You've got to have stock to sell.
So yeah, although, although, although, although understanding and knowledge, and also, it made it by under the back to this lectures point, you can have a much more informed and intelligent conversation with your peers if you've got a deeper understanding of the numbers.
So even if you're not, it's not a comfort zone, you have to lean in as a marketer, because at the end of the day, we're here to change behavior.
and then get some form of outcome, be it behaviour outcome, be it through users, be it through profitability, be it through sales, but and that's, you've got to understand that, you know, that you understand what you're here to do in terms of what measurements and be able to then look at those numbers and identify where you're doing well and where you could do better.
I think another, I just thought of another point that I feel would also be quite valid.So, I mean, that time at Maya was obviously a really important part in your career to get you obviously to where you are now.
Because not only are you getting quite early on in your career expertise around P&O, profit, sorry, profit and loss, not P&O, profit and loss, but also the stakeholder engagement piece.
Because, you know, and it's interesting, you know, my experience when I've met
say, marketing, you know, executives or whatever it may be, and they're in these smaller businesses, you know, it's a whole new kettle of fish when you put in a big ocean and all of a sudden you're managing and layering through departments.
So I guess my question for you is, how have you developed yourself throughout that time?Would you say Maya was a great sort of foundation to sort of dive right in and learn the dynamics of that?
Yeah, so in terms of stakeholder relationships and engagement, I've learnt by doing and I've learnt by doing things wrong.I think that, yeah, I answered the specific part around Maya.
You've got to understand retail and how retail, you know, I've worked 20 plus years in retail and there's always that holy trinity of like marketing, buying and operations because the three that have to work within, you know, in sync with each other.
You know, you have great marketing but you've got bad product. where you can have good product but if you've got nowhere to sell it or you're selling it inefficiently through operations and operations can be both in-store or online.
So you learn very quickly that it's the sum of the parts that make up the whole and the whole will be greater than the sum of the parts from a retailing point of view.
But then more specifically around stakeholder engagement and management, I probably look back at my time
when I first started at Officeworks and I remember I was leaving Meyer and the CEO at the time of Meyer was kind enough to have a coffee meeting with me before I left and his name was Bernie Brooks and there's one thing that he said to me in that coffee catch up because I was going from being like the second in charge of marketing to now the head person in marketing at Officeworks and he said, work on your relationships with your
And I'm like, yes, Bernie, yep, no, I've got that covered, no problem.And okay, yes, I'll make sure.I was like, I'll just sit down and have a coffee with them.
But you know, it probably wasn't until three to four years in at the role at Officeworks that I really understood what he meant by that because they can really make you or break you.They can become your advocates.
And I think sometimes you used to try to avoid their criticism or their critiques.I've learned after three to four years into leaning to their critiques and criticism and really, and not all of it was valid, but some of it was valid.
And I'd much rather now know it than not know it.So I think, you know, we, we all working into department, you know, type situation.So if there is critiques or criticisms of.
your function or of the marketing function, I will lean into that and understand it.And then we can have an informed conversation about, well, I think your perception is wrong or no, that's actually a really valid point.
Let me go and work on that and I'll come back to you.And I might not deliver exactly what you want, but I'm at least going to listen to you.Yeah.Yeah.
Yeah.That's really important. And I think it comes down to, you know, the way leaders actually take on board feedback and how they listen to that.
You know, it can be quite easy, I think, for us all to be, you know, so headstrong that it's my way or the highway.But like you just said, you know, leaning into that is going to be super important.
I had a manager of mine used to say, feedback is a gift.
But it just like any gift you get at Christmas, it could be that smelly pair or the bright pair of socks that you might want to return on Boxing Day, or you might appreciate the gift for what it is.But yeah, feedback is a gift.
What habits, I'm curious to know on this, what habits do you, I guess, cultivate to try and remain, you know, to stay informed and be consistently, I guess, help you improve as a leader?
Is there anything that you really sort of tend to, any CMOs that you, you know, really sort of like followed over the years or is it just honestly from experience and knowing the market?
Um, well, there's both as there's, as a marketing leader and, and, and a subject matter expert in the area of marketing, and then there's the area of leadership.
And I think some marketers will go down the path of being really great at understanding their specialty without understanding or going and investing as much time in leadership.
And I was probably one of those marketers early on that you realize as you get, you know, your, your role grows and you, you, you oversee more people that you really need to probably invest more in the area of leadership than you're doing.
subject matter expertise in marketing.So in terms of, I've been, you know, someone described me as a lifelong learner.I actually had someone describe me, have you always been that academic?
I'm not that academic, but I do like to read and listen to podcasts and recommendations, but that's around understanding the craft of marketing and big M marketing in terms of, you know, the four P's of product, place, price, promotion, not just advertising.
Um, and, you know, really being a lifelong learner of what's going, what the trends are in, in the areas of marketing.But I think in terms of leadership, you know, there's, there's some resources that have been wonderful, um,
you know, partners in terms of, you know, books, like I've got a book here, I can see it right here, like Mindset, which is about being a growth mindset, which has become, you know, well known, but just that idea of I'm not good at it yet.
Just putting the word yet on it.Understanding the gift of feedback and how to give and receive feedback. There's another great book or resource, which is called Creativity.
It's actually by the authors of, or the founders of Pixar, and they talk about how to foster a culture of creativity while having really string, you know, like, you know, stringent conversations about feedback.
But I think, you know, observing leaders around me, and I'd like to be, you know, marketers get blamed for being magpies, but I've been a magpie in terms of cherry picking bits of leaders' behaviors and demeanor and their tactics that I've found authentic to me.
Like, I can't be... Yeah, I've worked with some great leaders like Mark Ward who was the MD of Officeworks for, I can't remember how long, but almost probably 15 years.
And I could never be Mark Ward, but there's, you know, what I found inspiring about him was his discipline, you know, in terms of sticking to a strategy and his, you know, being core to who we are and be willing to say,
know the good ideas to say yes to the right ideas.That's something I picked up from him.Someone like Bernie Brooks who really took a really deep understanding of the market and of retail and used to have a memory like an elephant.
I learnt, learn your numbers.Be across your numbers. Um, there was another leader I worked with by the name of David Hayden.He just had fantastic empathy.He just had a great style of walking around, management by walking.
And he would just walk around the office and just make connections and talk to people.And he'd come, I'd have a, you know, one-on-one with him and I'm like, I'm going to tell you this and tell you, and he goes, yeah, I know that.Yeah, I know that.
I go, how'd you know that?I just walked around the office floor and just found out a whole heap of stuff.So again, there's,
Liz, I've cherry-picked bits along the way of, you know, leaders that, you know, have habits and behaviors that I've aspired to and really, really enjoyed getting inspiration from.
Excellent, excellent.I wanted to ask, and I've personally gone through this myself when I was managing a team.One day, you know, you get promoted and it's, right, we're going to give you a team now, so here's your reports. Yeah.Yeah.
And there's no, you know, there's no book that comes with that.It's so much.I, I've personally felt, okay, I'm just going to find my feet here and find my rhythm and off I go.So I wanted to ask you.
What was your first, I guess, management or leadership role where you were managing direct reports?And were there leaders there that you've learned?I mean, obviously, we all find our own what works for us, I guess.
But I guess, how did you find, you know, the best way and get to that point where you are now where, you know, you can really confidently, you know, manage people, you know, you feel like you've got it maybe, you know, nailed even?
For anyone looking for a shortcut, I'm afraid to say there isn't a shortcut.To be honest, I picked up tips along the way and as I said, multiple resources, there's another podcast that looks around behavior in organizations called Adam Grant.
I have pros and cons of someone like Simon Sinek as well, but there's people like that where you can pick up bits and pieces.But I think what I found in terms of my particular style was almost like cultivating frameworks.
that allowed people to then shine, but then like there's tight guardrails.
And by tight guardrails or frameworks, I don't mean they become so restrictive that you can't do anything, but they become core to who you are or what you're trying to be in terms of your brand positioning.
So, you know, it could be, I'll use a practical example.You're working with a team of graphic designers.Now I'm not a graphic designer and I don't study graphic design, but I understand and appreciate the elements of graphic design.
And I always saw my role in leading a team of graphic designers to ask those tough questions about who we are and how do we want to show up.And I'm not going to get the Adobe Acrobat out and start designing or get my
coloring in pencils and start designing.
But you know what, I'm going to challenge and go, help me define who we are as a brand and how we could show up and show me that there's flexibility within that framework that allows you to do your job, that allows us to be a brand that's got consistency in some way, shape or form.
So I found developing those frameworks or guardrails bid in any area, and allowing that subject matter expert to shine and actually bring the best and define those frameworks with me, has been my leadership style.
Because then they're empowered, and they've actually helped define the framework they're going to work with you.They, they own it.
Um, but within developing frameworks and guidelines like that, that style guide or example, or it could be, you know, something in terms of our CRM approach or any example need to have the flexibility to go.
that framework or guideline is not working for us now.Yeah.We need to resolve it.Yeah.But you can't be so, I'd like to say it's, it's setting clay, not setting stone.
Allow you the fact to actually change, because you could just, you know, you could put your head in the sand and go, well, that's the way we do it.And we only operate within that guideline.
I have an example from Officeworks where we set some guidelines around how we went to market from a promotional point of view. Now, we got to the point where we saw our brand metrics were plateauing and we saw our sales numbers were plateauing.
And so, I challenge and I shine, I put those metrics up on the board and said, are we happy with this?Do we think we can get better or what do we think is going on?
And it was quite pathetic because I heard from everyone in the team in terms of where we potentially could go and I was able then to establish from those ideas
that the evolution of the work and where it needed to go, and there needs to be more investment in brands and activations to actually demonstrate who we are as a brand, not just from a promotional point of view.
And we're able to recalibrate, define those frameworks, present it to the rest of the organization, got their go ahead, and then working within those guidelines.
I think when, when you're in that position and, you know, I think one thing you've just shared though is that, and it's a really simple one, but, and it's so important, but the ability to listen and actually, you know, have it, as you said, you know, have everyone in a room, share ideas, get everyone together.
Cause I think it can be so easy for everyone to just be, you know, head down, bum up, and there's a lack of communication really.
I love a good saying, but you know, we have one mouth and two ears, so use them in proportion.
I like it.I've always found then, you know, the fun trick is when you get to be the leader of a team, you can go last.
And sometimes you have to force yourself to go last because as soon as you say something, I don't like it or actually I don't allow the words I don't like.It doesn't work because or it's not working because or even better if is better language.
So language is important. But as soon as you say something as the leader, everyone else is then influenced by your opinion.So the trick is to actually hear from everyone else, encourage the debate.Why won't this work?
Or why the people who have expressed that this is a good idea, tell me why it won't work or why it's a bad idea.And actually get that debate.And that's not for everyone.In terms of sometimes that can be a little bit confronting.
But I've always found that, you know, from those, those good, healthy debates can come better outcomes.
Absolutely.I've got a bit of an interesting question and, and yeah.
They've all been interesting so far.Good.
Good.I'm glad.So a lot of CMOs, okay, well have often shared with me that when you're a CMO, it's actually, it can sometimes be a lonely job.Is that, is that true?Is that something that you've ever felt in the past?
I have felt it, but, but at the same time, it goes back to being a victim.Like it's only a, it's only a lonely place if you allow it to be.
Um, but it, it's sometimes, I, I, I'm not sure if there was a follow up, but I've, I've sort of looked into this and I've heard that before and yeah, I felt like that way, but I think it's sometimes that, you know, you're accountable for some numbers, like, yeah, your direct reports, uh, they're engaged and they're in the trenches with you.
But at the end of the day, you're ultimately. accountable for the outcome.So yes, it's a it's a shared, but it's only shared to a certain extent, like you're in the hot seat.And I suppose that's any, any form of leadership.
I'm sure the CEOs feel the same way.Yeah.It is a mindset because they ultimately, ultimately accountable for everything.
Of course, of course.Absolutely.Well, of course they are.Even more potentially, you know, it's, it's, yeah, it's that.It's their vision.Exactly right.I wanted to ask in terms of, I guess, broadly speaking,
If you're, say, a marketing manager, you know, you've got maybe, I don't know, six, seven years under your belt, you know, you're driven, you're ambitious, you know, one day you really want to get to that CMO or GM sort of top spot.
Is there any career advice that you'd say, you know, this would be my initial source, this is what, you know, you would share with these individuals to sort of support them and help them get there?
If I, if, if you allow me, I'd probably give like my, what the mindset that I've had, my particular approach, but the first thing to identify, and I actually do this through learning and development conversations is I always talk about, it's a little trick, but you know, in terms of I'm doing a learning development conversation with my team and I'll say, what are your aspirations?
Where do you want to get to? And I hear, and it could be, I want to be a CMO.And I say, okay, so let's just say that's like, I leave and the CMO role would, would the CEO actually give you the CMO role today?
More often than not, if they've got some level of self-awareness, um, they'll say, well, no.And then that opens up, please tell me why, what do you think?And more, more often than not, people know why.
I'm answering the question in terms of helping an individual, but for some, it could be, I'm not great at leading people.Or it could be for some, I need to get more commercial.
Or for some, it needs to be, I need to do, I need to work, I need to work better from a cross-functional and integration.Like it's going to be unique to each individual is what I'm saying.
But if you do have those aspirations, just look in your heart of hearts.And if not, ask someone who's close or around you in terms of, If that role was available today, what are the areas?
And even if you think you should get the role and you think you're ready for the role, why would the CEO or the person hiring say, no, you're not right?What is the perception around you that you need to then help alleviate?
So when that role does come up, you're the first choice that everyone thinks of.In terms of my personal mindset, in terms of the way I've gone about it in the It's a position myself for those roles.
There's probably three things that I pride myself on, almost like my ways of working or values, but curiosity.Basically, always being curious, always being curious around, be it marketing and marketing science.
It could be around how the business functions, being curious where we're making profit, be curious about what we're doing and the results that it's actually leaning into.
It's just, it's, I can say, be more commercial or I can say, learn more about marketing.I just think the common, the commonality is be curious and like constantly curious and never rest.
Um, as a retailer, this one is probably more pertinent to, to, you know, I've only worked in retail, but yeah. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to use my potty mouth, but I'd say get shit done.I witnessed it, people with the size.
you know, brains the size of watermelons that, you know, could come in with great ideas, but it means nothing unless you're actually getting, you know, the rubber is hitting the road.
And, you know, sometimes you can have these big hairy audacious goals or these big ambitions, just get one thing done and you know what, then get another thing done and then get another thing done and get another thing.
And by the time you look, it looks three months or six months down the track and you're sort of like, oh my goodness, look how much we've achieved. Like, done is better than perfect sometimes.
And that's something that I really enjoy in Koga.com because we're much more, you know, entrepreneurial and just look to get stuff done constantly, test and refine.And then the third one is around investing relationships.
So, that advice that Bernie gave me and we talked about, which is with your direct reports, your team, your peers. Be it with your suppliers, be it your partners, your agencies, be it with your media partners.
Investing those relationships and not just making it transactional.That could mean as simply as having a coffee or asking people about their lives.It doesn't become so transactional.Trust me, it does help in terms of
building rapport and making you more memorable in terms of them.And, you know, I think every interaction matters and helps build you and your personal brand and when those roles do come up.
that people will be, you know, more, more likely to think of you than not think of you.
Absolutely.I think there's a fine line, isn't there?
I think, you know, one thing I found from my interactions when I'm dealing with leaders, like, you know, yes, these people are, you know, in senior positions and they've got, you know, some powerful decision making capabilities there, but they're also just human.
You know, asking them how the holiday was last month, like, you know, it's just getting to know people sometimes.
Well, the thing is, it's I mean, it's not I say it's because it's a nice thing to do and a common thing to do.But to be honest, there's an ulterior motive that it's it makes you a better leader and it makes you create connections and empathy.
And when you're actually trying to inspire someone or ask them to go the extra mile, they're more likely to do it with someone that there is a bit of a bond than just the transactional relationship.
Absolutely. So just finally, before we wrap things up, I wanted to ask a little bit more about legacy and impact.So when you look back at your career, and I mean, you've done so much with some, you know, top tier brands.
What is it that, you know, you'd like people to, to remember you by, or that you'd say, you know what, I'm really proud of what the work we did here, or, you know, I work with some exceptional people and I've got to see them grow.
What does that look like?
It's an interesting question.I'll pause for a thought, because what I mean, I suppose I'll go with my gut instinct, which is maybe when you're early on in your career, and it probably evolved that
You want to make that great bit of advertising or that great style guide or that great piece of work that delivered like effective results and helped transform a business and I've come to realize that that's nice but that's not what's really important.
I can't help like everyone's got an ego of some sort.You know, it's great to see, you know, how like a brand like Officeworks continues to evolve and they've changed a lot of things since I've been there and so they should.
But there's like the core of the brand is still there around the positioning, around, you know, helping and empowering, you know, small businesses, people in education and people working from home.
So that core is still there and brands we've developed.
Developing taglines and creative for Audubon Midas, it's nice to leave that legacy, not because it's about the work, but about the impact that the work has on the business and creating prosperity and commercial returns.
But I mean, ultimately, it's got to be about the people and leaving a legacy. with the people that you've metaphorically touched and and and help grow and become better marketers and bigger better leaders and and saying you know
There's actually a bit of serendipity.There's someone by the name of Simon Davenport who was, he reported into me at Officeworks and then I was leaving Bapcorp and we had a conversation.I said, I'm leaving.
Do you want to like potentially, you might want to go for my role and, you know, to see him now as a, as a GM of marketing as well and seeing other people I've worked with and, and their growth and development.
That's the ultimate legacy I think in terms of, you know, then not,
Copying you but picking up some of the things that they want to pick up from you and then becoming their own authentic leaders and leaving their own commercial legacy is probably more satisfying than anything else.
Love it.It's almost like that domino effect, isn't it?
Well, I have thoroughly enjoyed listening to everything that you've shared.It's been really, really interesting.So thank you so much for your time and for joining us on the show.It's been fascinating.It's been great.
Thanks, Lucy.I think it's a great thing that you're doing to try and help young marketers grow and make the industry better overall.So all kudos to you.
Remember, the road to CMO isn't always linear.It's filled with challenges, decisions, and moments of transformation.
Whether you're charting your course or navigating a career shift, the experiences, wisdom shared today as with our guests is invaluable.Thank you for joining us.
Keep dreaming big, keep pushing boundaries, and remember that your journey towards becoming a CMO is as much about the destination as it is about the growth you experience along the way.
Until next time, continue to innovate, evolve and carve out your path to CMO.
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