Onwards, onwards, marching in the red Onwards, onwards, the sons and daughters red Onwards, onwards, a joyful walk we've had Yuletide, yuletide, yuletide
Hello, and welcome to Top Hole, the podcast about Eleanor M. Brent Dyer, the Chalet School, and anything vaguely connected.I'm Deborah Lofus, and I'm a fan.The usual promises apply with respect to pronunciation, spoilers, and bonkersness.
One of the things popular series authors do well is to create a believable world in which characters from one book crop up, sometimes with just a walk-on part or cameo in another.
I'm thinking about Judy Cooper, Terry Pratchett and Lorna Hill, for example.And EBD does this too.Various characters at various times arrive in the chalet school world, having already appeared elsewhere in EBD's work.
Or, as in the case of Jezanne Gellibrand, they arrive at the chalet school when their backstory is still in EBD's head.Jezanne arrives at the chalet school in Lavender Laughs, published in 1943.
The Lost Staircase, which is Jezanne's story, wasn't published until 1946. But Jezanne provides an intriguing trailer for this book with her reference, in conversation with the other chalet girls, to The Lost Staircase at Dragon House.
So I imagine it sold well on publication, although it's now hard to find.There were just two hardback editions before Girls Gone By published The Lost Staircase some 20 years ago.Because of this, I'm giving you an extra spoiler warning.
If you do not want to know what happens in The Lost Staircase, stop listening now. Okay, I'm assuming that if you haven't read The Lost Staircase and you're still listening, then you want to know what happens.Here's a summary of the plot.
Elderly Sir Ambrose Gellibrand realises that he has only one living blood relative, 14-year-old Jezanne, to inherit his estate at Dragon House.
He therefore ships her over to the Welsh borders from New Zealand, in order to teach her how to be an heiress before he dies.
Some minor conflict between Sir Ambrose and Jezanne is quickly resolved when her new governess arrives, as both Sir Ambrose and Jezanne dislike her.At Christmas, Jezanne learns about the ritual, capital R, of Dragon House.
After Christmas, her friend Lois comes to join her for lessons, and they begin a quest to find the lost staircase.This they successfully do, and then the governess gets married, so it's a doubly happy ending.
It is, and I feel I cannot stress this enough, one of the most bonkers books EBD ever wrote, but it is also quite brilliant.
The action is placed in that indeterminate period of before the war, and it's clear EBD thoroughly enjoyed herself in the writing of it.There's no rationing and no air raids, and she's writing about how things used to be.
EBD was living with other people, possibly in relatively cramped conditions, and had all the bother of running a school at the time she wrote it.
I think she reveled in inventing a huge house with its grounds and its estate, and that enjoyment comes across in the writing.
The Lost Staircase was one of the first non-Chalet EBDs I ever read, but it was a borrowed copy, and it wasn't until Girls Gone By published it that I had a copy of my own.
When it arrived and I opened it, my husband Kit hooted with laughter and, assuming it to be a Chalet school book, said, Matron, Matron, we've lost the staircase. But the title always intrigued him.
And when, a few months into the podcast producing, he said he thought he ought to read something by EBD, I suggested he relieve his curiosity and read The Lost Staircase.I quickly found out that Wendy hadn't read it either.
So this was their homework over the summer, ready for today's discussion.
Kit took the reading very seriously, making notes as he went along, but he had to be persuaded to take part in the discussion as he felt strongly that Toppole is a place for women's voices.
I had to get a bit bossy and say that it's my podcast and I'm inviting him because I'm genuinely interested to know what he makes of it, but I'm really not looking forward to sorting out the transcript with three of us talking.
Right, well, here we are, and doing a three-way discussion on a single book, which is not how I'd normally do it on the podcast, because neither of you two had read it before.
I thought we should start perhaps by placing this book in the context of Kit's reading background because that was one of the things he was worried about.
So Kit, you started reading as a child with The Famous Five and then jumped straight to adult books, is that right?
Pretty well, yeah.I didn't really read children's literature.I went from Janet and John to The Famous Five to Zane Grey and Moby Dick.
Right, okay.And your reading background, Wendy?I read a lot of children's books.I read voraciously as a child and then stopped reading for about 10 years because I was just a bit busy and then started reading crime
books, so I predominantly read crime books, crimes and thrillers.Right okay, so but I've always been a chalet school fan?
Yes and always gone back to read them and probably about once every five years I have enough time off to be able to reread a good chunk of them.
And I did read a couple of non-chalet ones, I read the ones that are set on the Channel Islands, La Rochelle books, yeah I read them once but I haven't read them since and then I haven't really read any of the others I don't think.
Okay, so you are familiar with EBD and her style,
Presumably it came as a bit of a shock to you Kit.
Well it did because the first chapter in this book is a completely different style from the rest of the book for reasons genius in my opinion.Oh wow.And so when I started to read the book I thought, oh gosh, is this how it's going to be?
But I realised she was doing quite, in my opinion, it's quite a clever literary trick.Yes.Also the title, I was expecting something like a mystery like Anna Catherine Green or something like that.
So the first chapter is written, in my opinion, in very arcane language.
It's almost like a black and white flashback.
In the book isn't it?Yes.
And I thought it was just me.It used language like different type of man from his sire and escort the lady thither. violist, travelling, plighted lovers and I thought oh my gosh if it's going to be like this all the way through then.
But in fact it was in my opinion quite a clever literary trick because it was a flashback to the the Gillbrand family history and it was as if the first scene was done in black and white and the rest was done in colour.
And when I got into the book I actually enjoyed the style.
I think, I mean this I think is a particularly good example of EBD. Some characters really come alive and really jump off the page.
Yes, definitely.And it's not particularly, I don't think, reminiscent of a Chalet school book.It doesn't have the kind of tropes that she usually uses and it is more creative than her other work.
I did think that was a really particularly clever plot point to use the oldie English for the first bit.It was like a prologue almost.
However, there are various ways a novel.So you could do it in the first chapter like she did or you could do it at the relevant points throughout the story.Eleanor and Bryndaer chose to do both.
So in the hands of a different writer that might have been a bigger problem than it turned out to be.
She knew what she was doing by the time she wrote this though, I mean she'd been writing for over 20 years, you know, she knew her craft and again I think that contributes to it being a really good book.
The reason I say her characters run away with her and they're very alive is that I think the idea she had for this book, apart from the lost staircase thing which will part for the moment, the idea was that it would be a young girl coming to live with an elderly relative and obviously they wouldn't get on and they'd argue and stuff.
And her characters just didn't sustain that.Yes, I mean, that lasted, what, a chapter and a half, two chapters?You know, it really doesn't last long.But as soon as the governess turns up, the two of them are like on the same side, aren't they?
Common enemy, haven't they?
and they actually they're quite reasonable with each other because there's one that I mean Sir Ambrose doesn't want to use Jezanne's name he thinks Jezanne is a silly name and she says no it's my name that's what you're calling me yeah kind of thing you know and and they sort it out yes yeah exactly but also I think he recognizes some spirit of himself in her so he wants to get on with her
and he doesn't want to clash with her and he recognises how ill and how old he is and he doesn't want the last time he spends with his blood relatives to be horrible.
So he kind of wants it to be nice and he wants to get on and he's prepared to compromise in part and then she's sort of young and fiery but prepared to compromise in part and I think the bit where they're definitely on the same side is a point at which she chooses not to say something in front of anyone else because it's like family
It's a family thing.Even the governess shouldn't hear what she's got to say because it's between family.And I just thought that was really, really good.
Well, I mean, the thread that runs through it for me is pick your arguments.Yes.So the issue over him wanting to call her something different was something she's really dug her heels in about.
which he ceded so then she decided well I'll give the governess a chance and it turns out governess was a disaster yeah all around I mean I think what um alienated her was the fact she didn't like dogs well yeah see it's quite doggy book this one isn't it I mean we're having a whole episode about dogs at some point so we'll get on to dogs we'll save it for that episode
but it is quite a dog-heavy book, isn't it?
Yeah, and the bit where he introduces the dogs to her and gets them to smell her hand and he tells them that she's part of the pack is actually exactly what we do now.
So it rings completely true to someone who totally understands what books are about and that was really realistic.
However, Jezanne's telling the governess that they're vicious or whatever, or playing up to her fear of them, I think isn't something that anyone would do lightly if they cared about the dogs.
Because you wouldn't want someone to be anxious around the dogs because that would make the dogs worse.But then young people don't always make the best choice.No.
The other thing that confused me was keeping track of all the characters. There was a character called The Presence, who Jezanne referred to when she first arrived.And it wasn't until later that we found out that The Presence was called Spike.
And it wasn't until even later that we found out The Presence was Mrs Spike.Because she was asked to escort Jezanne to her room.And there was a similar thing where the dog is mentioned in the kitchen, and then much later.
Chapter 22, there's a description of the dog given which, like I say, a conventional author may have described... There was a cat, wasn't it?
And it wasn't until later on that the cat was actually described... As a cat.As a cat.
Yes, rather than a person in the kitchen.
Yeah, or any other kind of animal.
But in the end it didn't really matter. Because there were only two characters in it really, three that mattered.
And Lois is a bit of a hanger-on, I mean the dynamic changes when she arrives.
Yeah, I'll get onto that later, I didn't understand what was going on there.
In terms of the arc of the book.
Right, okay.I think Jezanne needed somebody youthful and energetic to do the investigating with her, I think that's
yeah the reason why she's brought i mean recently met her yeah so is that why she held on for so long investigating the staircase which was the whole point of the book well she was dealing with a new governess to start off because she wasn't being very nice you know because the investigation only started over christmas and then after christmas when the governess was
distracted as we later found out by her forthcoming marriage.And also after Christmas the governess had moved out to live in a house.
Because one of the things I love about this book is it's very opulent, they have fantastic dinners, they have a Gainsborough in the library,
They have a couple of spare houses because Jezanne gets one for Christmas and then they've got another one the governess can go and live in.
It's lovely and I think like you were saying before that in the war period where you're in very close quarters with lots of people, imagining that you're in this glorious castle with all these extra... and it is like a castle with grounds and stuff.
I was picturing it almost being a little bit like Winter Castle in the grounds and there's a big park and stuff because they go like across the land and it goes on forever to the next village or whatever.
And then there's like little lodges at the end, but they're not little lodges, they're like huge proper houses.So yeah, that was quite fun, imagining all of that.
And just imagining someone with lots of people around them all the time escaping into this fantastical world where a 14 year old girl inherits an enormous estate.
It's brilliant.It's just absolutely brilliant.And she's a true Gaelic band because she can tell that the house looks like a dragon from a certain angle. — That's classic EBD weirdness.— It is classic EBD weirdness, yes, yes.That is rather bonkers.
But rather lovely bonkers, isn't it, I suppose.— Yeah.— And there's quite a lot about what being a true Gellibrand entails, isn't there?You made copious notes, I believe.
— I made some notes about Gellibrand family values.And the first one was, he said, none of us care to work at anything we can't do well. And then later on, in chapter 7, it said he had no desire that she should become a learned woman.
This is talking about Giselle, because in his opinion, to take over the role that she's going to take over, there's no point in her being a learned woman.
Right, okay, so what's important is learning how to run the estate.
Yes.Right, yes, manage the estate.So they also had disagreement over the musical instruments as well, because she wanted to learn the cello and he...
She already played the cello, yeah.
Yeah, but she wanted to continue with the cellist, I believe, and he thought she was better off playing the piano.
Yeah, that was the governess, thought she was better off playing the piano, yes.An accomplished woman who played the piano.There was the whole thing about needlework as well, and knitting, that Sir Ambrose was not keen on ladies sewing and knitting.
Actually, posh ladies not sewing and knitting, rather than knitting.Well, someone's got to knit the jumper at some point of an evening.He wasn't very keen.
I like the thing about it being bad for your eyes.I think that's probably true.That was the needlework.
And the noise of the knitting needles.The tick tick tick.So they play chess instead.
Which is nice.Probably more important if you're learning to manage an estate, you've got loads of different pieces on the board that you need to think strategically about where they're all going and how you're going to protect everybody.
So actually chess is a really good thing.And probably, I mean I don't know because I wasn't like a posh person ever and I wasn't a posh person in that time, but I'm sure most young ladies weren't taught chess.It was considered much more romance.
It was what you'd teach the boys, yes.But then normally it'd be a boy inheriting, wouldn't it?
That's true, yeah.So, chapter seven, I made some notes.Did Eleanor Enbren and I use allegory a lot?
Because there was Only one trunk?Yes.And then there were the three oaks which seemed, at first I put down to unnecessary detail.Right.
But she's saying they were so old that some of the branches had been propped and the main trunks were carefully stayed against the force of the winter storms.But I realised well that's kind of where the Gellibrand family had found themselves.
It could be inadvertent genius there, I think, literary genius.Or I mean maybe she's better than we think and we're not reading it right, you know. But yeah, that's actually quite a good metaphor.
Or maybe I'm reading too much into it, but that's what I mean.And then, um, Gellibrands treat strangers courteously.And this is where the issue with Miss Mercier comes in, because dog loving is a Gellibrand trait.
Okay and then there's the whole ritual encapsulating the Gellobrand family with fire.And Kit's head goes into his hands.
It's the ritual that's illustrated on the front of the book where Jezanne is being dressed in her medieval robes that fortunately fit her.How lucky is that?Very lucky.
So as you can see he goes on about how ladies nowadays are much bigger and they have bigger hands.
Bigger hands.I did do some fact
Oh, did you do some fetch?I can go on then.Yeah, that's for me.Oh, is it alright?He reckons that the women today have bigger hands because they play tennis and do more handy type.But yes, I know.Sorry, I'm pulling faces.
That's the weirdest thing I've ever heard.
There was another thing that wasn't a factoid though.It was not feeding the dogs raw potato.Oh, because it's poisoned.And apparently there is a chemical in raw potato that dogs find quite... it upsets them.It distresses them.
I can't remember the name of it.Solanine is the name of the chemical.Because the quote is don't give the dogs potato, it's poison to Alsatians and in fact it's not very good for any dog.
Raw potato particularly.They can have cooked white potato and they can have cooked sweet potato as well but they can't have raw potato.
I did fact check that and that was true.
Thank you, EBD. Right, the lost staircase itself, I mean the obvious question for anybody, how can a staircase be lost?
And multiple people say that, they say it in the Chalet School books when Jezanne first tells them about the story of how we found the lost staircase.
Kit's reaction when he first heard the title, make sure we've lost the staircase, how can you lose a staircase?And that was Jezanne's first reaction as well.So I think we should reveal, for the benefit of those who have not read the book,
how you can lose a staircase.And the answer is that you knock down the half of the house that the staircase is in and build something else and put a staircase somewhere else.
So the old, the remains of the staircase are on the outside wall of the house.So it's not within the house.And then let loads of ivy and creeper grow over it so that the sticky out staircase bits are hidden.
And then you find it when your kitten falls out the window. So that was good.And I can't remember, because they did lots of research.From the journal.
From the journal, with its weird spelling, and old English, and sent pages off to be x-rayed or infrared.She's a bit vague about what technical process is being used.
Yeah, she said infrared and she didn't mean that.Yeah, she meant something else.Because the pages were stuck together.
Yes, and so there's various mystery stuff going on, but I'm not It wasn't the journal that solved the mystery of the lost staircase was it?It was the kitten falling out the window.So what was the point of all the research they did?Remind me?
It was to do... it was the disappointing array of artefacts that they found.It was all to do with the falling out of one of the sons in history because of a religious... Or wasn't it the Civil War?Yes, taking the other side.
And there was an explanatory letter.So that all came out in the journal.Right.And so when they eventually discovered what was hidden in the staircase.
Oh yes, because there were some things that had fallen through the gap.
tiny holes and they wouldn't have known to look for those if they hadn't read the journal.They would have found the staircase but not the amazing bits and bobs.
So had it been like a regular children's book it might have been treasure or something like that but it was, I won't say disappointing, but it was unexpected.
yeah ordinary i think abt does well with the ordinary yeah generally speaking it reminds me of um joey's pit in the chalet girls at camp oh yes because they find that they tease her and get her to find something that isn't that interesting they've planted but then they find the story of just a normal joe soldier who's you know stashed his last
thoughts there, and his wallet, so that his beloved can find out how he felt at the end or whatever.And it's actually quite moving to find those normal things about normal people.Yes.
So, in my notes, I think, like I say, because I started writing down irrelevant detail, there was so much of it that I stopped doing that.Christmas begins and he worries about Jezanne working too hard. And on page 100, somebody was literally stunned.
That's the first of only two references to literally.
So we ought to track her use of literally.
And it had, apparently, the dog romped violently.And there was a word I had to look up.Coagitors.
Oh, we see she uses that a lot of the time.
I think romping violently is okay, isn't it?
Possibly.Just a bit unusual.
Is it the dogs rumping with each other?
Yeah, I can see what she means.
Oh yes, sorry, we were talking about ritual, you got distracted.So the ritual involves dressing up in old clothes and then all the servants hide, don't they?Yeah.And it's just Sir Ambrose and Jezanne and they go to
all four corners of the house on the outside and say something like, is anybody there?Come in and be welcome.Or something like that.Wave a lamp and say those special words.And they have to do it all over the house as well, in every room and outside.
And then they go to the outhouse or the stable or something.And then when they come back, the servants have been rushing around and lit all the lights, which aren't electric lights. So that's quite a task, but OK.And it's, ta-da, now it's Christmas.
Yeah, well that's when Giselle spots the fact the house looks like a dragon, and apparently only a true Gaelibrand can see the likeness.Yeah, so that's nice.
So that's good.Yes it is.It goes on for quite a long time, the ritual.Yeah.
— I see it as the equivalent of a Chalet school Christmas play.It goes on for quite a while, it's not that interesting, but you can't skip it.
— I'd go with that.— Yeah, I mean, I stuck with it simply just out, it's like watching a sort of... — Car crash?
— Yeah, I just thought, really?
But like I say, I don't really know how children's books are structured, so I don't know whether that was normal or not.
— I don't think that's the most bonkers thing that happens in the book. I would say that Sir Ambrose breaking his legs, slipping on a banana peel, I think is a top contender.
Oh yes, that was the other factoid that I looked up and it is a myth.
Oh okay, you can fall over on a banana skin.One propagated by, can I just say, Sir Robert Baden-Powell because it gets a reference in Scouting for Boys, the original Scouting for Boys. So it was clearly something people worried about at the time.
But I doubt, as she claims on page 164 of our edition, half the street accidents are caused by discarded fruit skins.
yeah even then when they didn't have as many cars yeah i think they probably caused more accidents than well also if you're gonna slip on something on the pavement it's gonna be dog poo isn't it or leaves wet leaves yes wet leaves it's not gonna be a banana skin well i suppose people disapproving of these newfangled bananas well maybe maybe well i suppose eleanor ebd at the time would have been fantasizing about bananas at the time she wrote it yeah she hadn't seen any for so long yeah
So just reminding yourself they have bad sides as well as good sides maybe.
Making yourself feel a little bit better about them.
I'm not really missing them because look how many accidents they cause. Maybe.I don't know.
I suspect that some of this stuff is like a little private joke to herself because she probably knew somebody who spoke like Gellibrand and kind of some of the things he says, well you shouldn't, women shouldn't do needlework at night because they'll ruin your eyes.
Oh right, yeah.And that's just, she thought that was quite funny and so she's put that in to show how old he is and how tough he is.Well that's true, yes.I mean he really does help them very much.
The banana skin quote is probably someone in the, you know, I don't know, in the shelters or whatever saying no, the
terrible or half of all accidents she's like that's rubbish i'm putting that in that's brilliant because you know that's what writers do they they listen to what's around them they repurpose something to make a point and i just think it's a lovely yeah
I suspect she didn't know anybody who had a spare house they could give to their young relative for Christmas.But the Queen got one, didn't she?
Because at Guides we had the little house emblem and that was based on the little house that was given to the Queen when she was a little girl.
of Wales, but I think it was at Windsor Castle, but I could be misremembering that, so that she had a little house.And the Gellobrans being the Gellobrans, it's not just a little house, a servant comes over and does some of the work in it as well.
So Jezanne's not having to really overstretch herself.
I have to say, if anyone does want to give me a Wendy house, that's the kind of Wendy house I'm hoping for.Yes, yes.The little plastic things with the tent.Yeah, no, no, no.One of them.
That would be a lovely little Wendy house.
And a little sitting room.And you can make your little cakes and sandwiches and your tea.And your own tea cabin.And entertain your elderly relative.Yeah.That would be lovely.Thanks.
During the course of the book we are reminded on numerous occasions how old Jezanne is. 14?Yeah, they keep mentioning how old she is.
And then I'm looking at my notes here for chapter 13 and it says men, added the experienced Suzanne Wisely, are so impatient. So I'm just introducing random things.
That's okay, that's what we do.
And the things and no Gaelibrand of us all ever likes eating humble pie is the Gaelibrand family values.But Lewis arrives in chapter 13 anyway.Who's Lewis?Lewis, Lois.Oh, Lois.I've got all confused then.
I've been waking up earlier.Yes, that's right.A whole different mystery going on. Yeah it's a mash-up for future.And then Jezanne and Lois end up at the chalet school so that's after Sir Ambrose's death.
Presumably Jezanne decided she didn't want to keep employing a governess and they both turn up in the shadow school, goes straight into the sixth form I think, and then Jezanne becomes head girl the following year.So... All that chess you see.
Well, she's clearly got the leadership skills that are required to do the job.It's nice to have her backstory actually, to have those two sides of her, you know, her in a school context and then in this context as well.Yeah.Where she's come from.
So at the end of the book, not only is evil Governess, who's not evil but... Disliked.Disliked Governess married off and out of the picture,
But Jezanne's auntie Anne, that she lived with in New Zealand, Surround Bridge ships her back as well, and so she's going to become part of the household and everybody's reconciled.Yeah, and that's lovely.
— Jezanne's asked to be the bridesmaid for the governess.
So she has to forgive them.— And at one point, again, I've written a note here, playing in the billiard room with the dogs.So I imagine the dogs
See, I think I just gloss over stuff like that because I'm so used to reading EBD writing ridiculous things, it just doesn't even register anymore.It has to be as bonkers as half of all pedestrian accidents are banana skin.
Even the great writers make howlers in my opinion.I mean Wilkie Collins in The Woman in White describes Count Fosco as rolling endless cigarettes.
Yeah, yeah.All right, so overall then, Friends, I mean I've already said I think it's one of EBD's best, I've really enjoyed it, but don't let that influence you.Kit, how did you enjoy it overall?
I did enjoy it, I didn't enjoy the first chapter, particularly as the relevant history was then introduced as it needed to be.I just forgot it all really.
So I didn't get on with the ritual at all, couldn't see what its purpose was, but then I thought, do things need to have a purpose?I don't know.It just seemed to me there were other purposeful things in the book and that was the least purposeful.
But yes, on the whole I didn't feel that I should put it down at any point.
good that's a win that is a win yeah wendy i enjoyed it i thought it was really good non-chalet book from her i thought it was completely bonkers but in a really lovely way and i actually thought like like i said the ritual to me seemed a bit like a
go through it, but actually what it did was it emphasised the sort of mysterious side of Catholicism, if you like, and the fact that the Catholicism was hidden and so it's kind of supposed to be related to that, like you're looking for Jesus in all the corners or whatever at Christmas time, inviting him to join you, a bit like laying an extra place at the table.
And it also meant that she was inducted and he completely accepted her by showing her the ritual which was private and only people who lived in the house could know about it or the family could know about it.So I did think that was kind of
reasonable to do that as a way of showing that he completely accepted her.And I also thought that actually the bit where the workers say, oh, well, we sort of knew about the staircase.We were told not to talk about it.
It's kind of really good because that's completely believable. Because people are told, like, you know, a hundred years ago, tell your kids but don't tell anyone else.
And so, when someone asks them, no, I don't know anything about this lost, never heard of it, it's all lost.So I found that completely believable as well.It's very hard sometimes to find a bit that's completely believable in an EBD story.
But for me, that was.The idea that someone could keep that secret and only pass it on to their kids.And the fact that they could have this weird ritual that they still did, you know, I could see that
sort of thing gets handed on in you know country houses and among the posh or whatever.So actually I did and I really enjoyed it and I did think it was hilarious there getting given a house for Christmas.
But again it just added to the enjoyment because it's so bonkers.So yes and I like dogs so I quite liked the dogs in it and they did have a sort of starring role in parts of it so I thought that was really good too.
So overall I think it's probably my favourite non-chalet B&E.
that sounds fair i think yeah that's good stuff i wonder i did do a bit of research to see if i could find a stately home anywhere that had lost its staircase where the staircase had become part of an external wall just to see what had inspired her yeah because i'm sure she must have seen it somewhere i suppose it must have been a bombed house so that might it might be in a bombed house but also it might be in a car an actual castle right yes there are two um pembroke castle has
bits that strut out on the side of one bit and it looks like a staircase but there's no explanation for it and i thought because it's not beams or anything they're concrete but they're stone so they're not but they're they're put in as if they would be props for something and i kind of assumed that in days of yore there was a wooden staircase went out outside of it so that people could get up there quickly rather than using the stone steps inside
So yeah, so I kind of assumed that.I mean it might just be the way a spiral staircase is made, that those bits poke in the edge to make it solid.But yeah, I've seen that kind of thing.
Pembroke Castle, Powis Castle has some as well, but that's nearly intact.And there's another one.
So she could have just seen something and thought, ah, I'll make that.We'll never know what inspired her to write the story, but I am very glad she did.
You have been listening to Top Hole, written and presented by Deborah Lofus with Wendy Norford and, for the first and last time, Kit Lofus.Music and production by Kit Lofus.
You can find Top Hole on Facebook or email us at topholepodcast at gmail.com.Top Hole is a Lofus Towers production.
Sign in
