Welcome to the CMO Chapter Podcast, where we dive deep into the dynamic world of chief marketing officers.Join us as we explore the careers, insights, and strategies of top marketing executives who shape the brands we know and love.
Whether you're a seasoned marketer, aspiring CMO, or simply just curious to understand what it really takes to step into the shoes of a CMO.
This podcast is your backstage pass to discovering what it's like to lead and innovate in the ever-evolving landscape of business.Stay tuned as we uncover the stories of the visionaries behind the brand.
So, I am absolutely delighted to welcome the wonderful James McIntyre.So, welcome to, I think it's Episode 5, I think we're on now, Episode 6.
I think it is.I was listening to all of them, so, and they've been wonderful.So, thank you for the opportunity to come and share some insights about my career and some learnings along the journey.
You're very welcome.You're very welcome.So James, should we start by, would you like to introduce yourself?
Right.So, yeah, I'm James McIntyre and Lucy, you and I have known each other for a while.I've always enjoyed our discussions over the years.And I'm a consultant working in the marketing and customer experience space.
And the area that I tend to work in is that intersection of data and insights, technology and customer engagement.
And I typically work with CMOs, CEOs, sometimes embedded within a marketing team, looking at different growth and acquisition opportunities for a brand and also opportunities to improve. general customer experience leading to better NPS.
And I've been lucky enough to work with some great organisations, including West Farmers One Digital, Cash Rewards, Flybuys recently, but also Medibank and realestate.com.au.
Yeah.I was having a look actually at your background earlier and I was like, you've really worked for some top tier brands, you know, along the way.
And I was, it was interesting to see right at the beginning of your career, you were almost in these sort of like strategic roles before you then entered into more of a marketing CX.
So can you tell me how you sort of made that leap from more of the sort of data strategic sort of roles into this?
A really big pivotal moment in my career, probably between quite a long time in, in strategy roles, was starting my own online business.And I had 2 online businesses that I started, and they were marketplaces connecting buyers and sellers.One was
personal trainers and the other one was with beauty professionals.And that was a really great experience in terms of I started the business myself.I was bootstrapping it, meaning that I was paying for everything.There wasn't investors.
And as you know, Lucy, having your own business, you've got to get on the tools, do everything yourself.So, that was a real sort of a bridge for me and a really amazing moment.
When I came out of those two businesses, I was then asked to go agency side, really.And I worked for a company, Loud and Clear, that was acquired by Accenture Song.And because of the experience and the skills that I'd developed,
through running my own online business, come in the business and help the agency with a big retail client, that they'd come on board.
And that was really sort of the start of a new part of my career into, into CX and into, and into, really into marketing.
So, and from there, I've had my own consultancy business and I've worked with different organisations around solving various problems around
acquiring customers and also a lot on the retention, particularly with all the big membership and loyalty programs.
It's really all about how do you activate those members and get them to the next level of engagement and make sure that they're staying and having a great, great experience.
Thank you for sharing that.I think it's quite interesting because I think when you've had your own business, as you've said, you're very much on the tools.
And so when you're on the tools, you're really sort of navigating through, OK, you know, I can make a difference here.I can make an impact there.
And especially when you're consulting, obviously, you know, as an agency as well, you get so exposed to so many different projects. Has it been that CX has just always been a real sort of driver for you?
I mean, what is it about CX that you go, you know what, I know that this is my sweet spot?
I've always been hugely interested in... couple of things.One is technology and two is people.And for me, CX and the work that I do sits really nicely in the middle.
So, I started my career in tech, in digital actually, as we were saying before, Lucy, I started my career in sales after graduating with a marketing degree.So,
I guess for people earlier in their journey, one of the learnings is there's many, there's many paths into marketing and to CX and data-driven marketing.And working in sales is definitely one of them, as is customer service.
And I think one of your guests last week, talked about that and how that's a really great entry point.
So yeah, bringing those two things together, as you know, I was a strategist for many years, which was really all about understanding people, research, et cetera.
And then I've also worked in the lifecycle marketing space, which brings that sort of technology.But I've always been interested in people and why they why people do things, and it's often not, not what you think.
So that's what, the ability now to, to test different things.You know, we can, on a daily basis, see how people are interacting with communications, touch points.We can seek real-time interaction and we can change things.
So that's been a really exciting development over, you know, the last little while.
Oh, absolutely.I think, you know, your world right now, I mean, it's incredible.Like, you know, I mean, we're all talking about AI and it's, yeah, it's going to be really interesting.
I think what the next couple of years takes us when we're talking about, you know, CX, I mean, that whole chapter is just completely evolved.Like it's, it's pretty incredible.
I want to talk a little bit more around, um, going back to how you've emerged as a leader, because, you know, a lot of my guests have shared with me, there's never a rule book.You don't get given, Hey, this is how, you know, best to lead a team.
You can throw it into it and you learn as you go.
So as you've become more senior, and, you know, you've now obviously leading a team, what's been, have you just sort of, have you learned from other leaders or mentors, or what's been the sort of, I guess, common kind of path that you've taken?
A combination of different things.And my journey into leadership, I was reflecting this morning before the podcast, is an interesting one as well.
I worked for a company that had different development paths, and I'd identified that I wanted to be a people leader.And I actually applied for people leader positions at this particular company 3 times.And each time I was told, no.
And I became even more determined.And, you know, I got on the radar of, you know, people that were able to help me, and I was able to go into leadership training programs.
And eventually, I took on a small leadership position adjacent to the current role that I was doing, which was more of an administration team not doing hugely, you know, interesting work, but it was, you know, it was a start.
And I learnt a lot in that, in that organisation.And then I think it's a combination of learning from others.
So one of my pieces of, pieces of advice is, it's not only looking at the organization that you want to work with, look at the leader, because you can have very different experiences in the same company with a different leader.
So are you going to have a leader that's going to, that you can learn from, that's going to put you forward for opportunities, that's going to be that voice in the room when you're not there?And I think, yeah, look,
I'm all about lifelong learning as well.So I think you've got to put your hand up for what you want and you've got to identify different opportunities.And I'll make a point of trying to learn something at least formally, at least every, every year.
Yeah.So I've recently completed a, I'm a Certified Customer Experience Professional, which is a global sort of qualification.
Also, just thinking about the tools, I've recently become a Braze practitioner, which is what we use in my, in my current organization that I'm consulting with.
And that's as much for me to be able to help my team who are using that kind of on a, on a daily basis to have a greater understanding of, of how they're using the, using the platform.So I think it's a combination of different things.
And I think the other thing that we were talking about earlier, Lucy, is that there's opportunities for learning. outside of the corporate environment as well.
So for people starting off their career, there's things to be learned from having a side hustle.
Getting on the tools yourself and building an e-com business, it's probably easier than ever to do that with the different tools and platforms that are available.You'll learn a lot if you're not getting that in your current role.
And then volunteering.So I've been involved in lifesaving for probably the last, eight to ten years, largely through my kids.
But I, you know, became a volunteer on my patrol and subsequently, it just happened, I took on running the life-saving program for kids at my local club, which was about 150 kids, 100 families, 30 coaches and volunteers.
Look, you learn a lot in that environment where, look, no one's being paid.It's all volunteers.Everyone's giving up their time.There's not a lot of hierarchy and normality.
And you have to, you, you interact and wonderful experience to interact with a lot of different people from a lot of different walks of life.And also really to see how other people lead as well and how they do that. actually, and with empathy.
You know, some of our coaches are wonderful on how they bring in different skills from their professional life.
So there's lots, look, there's lots of different, if you're open and you're sort of a lifelong learner, there's lots of opportunities to learn those leadership skills.
Yeah, brilliant.And there's so much there that I completely resonate with.
I think, you know, going back to, I think, you know, if you can at an earlier age, I mean, I remember my first jobs, I think I was working in call centers and I used to hate it.
But then I think, well, it really got me, it made me be a lot more confident around communication.And obviously now as a recruiter, communicating's a number one key important part.
And so you look back at your career and you think all those little smaller roles I was doing, you know, when I was like, you know, 19, 20, whatever, they really were, you know, they just helped build those building blocks.
Yeah, you completely bang on.And I think how refreshing as well, like, you know, where you are currently, you know, you're in this corporate world, but then at the weekends, you're in lifesaving and yeah, coaching.
So it must be quite a refreshing change sometimes.
It is.It is, I'm fine.I enjoy it.
Good, good.What advice would you give?
I guess individuals that, you know, perhaps, I don't know, they might be digital marketing specialists or even coordinator level, but you know, they've identified, you know, CX is definitely perhaps something in the future I really want to start to get more involved in.
Um, you know, I feel like that's my sweet spot.
Is there anything that you'd recommend or, you know, is there any even thought leaders that you'd say that are real, the go-tos to start to follow around the world of CX that you'd sort of, you know, recommend that they start to be aware of?
I think there's a few, there's definitely a few paths into CX, whether you're looking at it from a marketing perspective and a communication perspective and a MarTech perspective, which is sort of the area that I tend to lean into.
So I think looking at opportunities to get involved in projects around that, and particularly, you know, it could be the implementation of a new technology platform,
It could be looking at a review of some of the journeys that your organisation has to communicate with customers.It's often an area that, you know, is hugely important and needs a lot of attention.
I guess the other way in is from a customer service perspective as well.So typically, you know, those in customer service, even call centres, they're very, very aligned with the needs of the customer.And that's really helpful.
And then, you know, research and insights and that side is in sort of another way, as another way in.So, when I think about CX, there's sort of different flavours to it and different entry points as well.
So, people that are interested in there, it just depends on kind of where you're- Where you want to be.Where your interest lies.
It's interesting because over the years that I've been recruiting, I've recruited obviously, you know, all sorts of different CX roles throughout that time.And I've noticed as well, I mean, it's getting so much, it's getting so diverse.
So when we talk about, oh, you know, I need a CX manager, I mean, gosh, that could be anything from operations to customer service to, you know, digital CX, like customer roadmapping, like design.It's so, so broad.
I wanted to understand, I guess, from you, what are the, is there any sort of trends that, again, we all talk about AI, but is there any trends that you kind of think, well, you know, in the next sort of three years or, you know, four years or even longer, how do you see the world of CX evolving?
I know that's quite a meaty question, but what are your thoughts?
think it's been able to quickly understand and react to different signals that your customers are giving you and how you react quickly in real time.So it's definitely having that strategic view of the customer, the customer journey, the
pain points, where the opportunities are, having, you know, dashboards to set up to look at where people are dropping off, but also understanding and having some sort of a listening program where you're looking at those key kind of experiences and understanding
what problem customers are having at that point in time, and then how you react to that as well, because it's great maybe through a tracking program that you can understand, you know, after month four that a customer's being welcomed or onboarding, but you really want to know a lot quicker so you can surface that right, that right opportunity.
So I think being able to do that quicker is really important.I mean, customer expectations are
you know, if they're at an all-time high, just because you're in X category, it doesn't mean that a customer won't compare you to an experience that they've had with something else as well.So customers do experience a lot.
And I think brands that can meet those expectations are the ones that are going to move, move forward.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.And I'm curious to know, like in an age of, I guess, you know, AI, as I've mentioned, and machine learning,
How do you, I guess, what can businesses be doing to sort of, you know, what do you think maintain, I guess, to still maintain that human touch?
You know, what's, because I think that's where I sort of feel as a consumer, I think, okay, well, sometimes, you know, yeah, do I want to chat to a chat box?Like, I mean, how, you know, it's that fine line, isn't it?
It's still remaining that human connection.
Yeah, I think it's understanding.I mean, there are some experiences where people are quite happy to have some sort of automated response and search content.And then there's others where they actually want to talk to, talk to a real person.
I think AI is hugely useful as a tool, and it requires that human thought and empathy to understand where and how to best use it.Because without that, you know, it's not going to make sense for, it's not going to make sense for a customer.
So we use AI that's built, I'm seeing more and more tools that I use in marketing automation building in AI, but they're more to assist something that you would want to do around
whether that be experimentation, so tools that will understand your customers and work out what the best path to send them down in terms of an experience to run an experiment.That's hugely useful, but you have to think about what's our hypothesis?
What do we want to prove?How do we determine success or failure as well?And then AI for even for sort of the copywriting, for emails, for content, that's super useful, even AI to
look at how you're using your different creative assets to reformat them for a particular audience as well.
So anything you've done to save marketeers time is amazing, but it needs that human overlay and an understanding of what's the problem that we're going to solve and what are the tools that we have.
And AI, that's great, but it could equally be something else.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I guess I'm curious to know, I mean, you've done a lot throughout your career, as we touched on earlier.You've worked for some real top-tier brands.
You know, some of those, you know, opportunities have been, you know, almost project-based as well.
Is there a real, when you look back at your career, is there a real sort of pivotal moment where, you know, you're particularly proud of what you achieved?
I think there's a few, Lucy.I really enjoyed my time at realestate.com.au when they were in an early stage of growth and there was some really interesting thoughts around leadership and ways of working.
So there was a real theme that you hear a lot around
And if you can put something live, if you can put something in front of a customer quickly and get feedback, that's a lot better than spending months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and months and
planning, you know, what may or may not happen.And some really interesting thoughts around leadership and people leadership as well.
So, and there were sort of 3 facets around, you know, managing teams and people, which I took from that experience, which was, you know, you need people to
to, to understand what their, what their role is and what the organization is doing and their mission.So start with that understanding.Then that's acceptance of your role.So understanding what your role, and then doing that really well.
But if you don't get those 3 things aligned, Um, you know, it's, it's not going to work.So, um, some of the work I did around, um, starting their advertising business, um, we would be probably known now as a retail media business.
It wasn't at the time.Um, that was a really great experience.Um, I worked at an in-house agency at News Corp as well, which was a great experience because you're not only dealing with one client, you're dealing with multiple clients.So every day.
putting together, you know, different strategies for clients, seeing how all major brands advertise as well, right?Working agency side as well and being very on the tools.Culturally, I love my time at at Medibank.
That was really great with that mission around genuinely helping people with their health.And more recently in the loyalty space with Cash Rewards, Flybuys and Wesfarmers One Digital has been amazing.
And some of the work that I've done around helping understand customers, their behavior, but also acting on that and then for a new
technology solutions to surface, you know, the right opportunity, the right offer at the right time to members and seeing that impact on acquisition and growth.
So I think, through, through your career, you know, take out those learnings of different places that you've worked with, people you've worked with as well.I mean, you've worked with some really amazing leaders.
And also to take the learnings of when things haven't gone well, because That's when you learn the most, right?Absolutely.
You know, you're celebrating, you're maybe not learning as much, but when something doesn't go right, that's when the massive learning occurs and it's how you can deal with that, take that as a learning and apply that to the... Oh, 100%, 100%, you're so right.
And I think it's being comfortable asking for feedback, I find, you know, like, I mean, I know throughout my career, I've always, you know, if I haven't, if there's been, I've always wanted to know why and I'm not scared to get the feedback.
And I think, you know, it's something that I'll also advocate more, you know, it's like, we're going to learn at the end of the day.You'd rather know what that is.It's important.
Absolutely.You've got something to learn from everyone as well.That's the approach that I've taken.
I wanted to get your opinion on something.So, um, recently I've been having a lot of conversations, obviously with various, you know, heads of CMOs, et cetera.
And there is this sort of, I guess, sort of sense of feeling at the moment where, you know, the, the CMO role is just getting so stretched and it's evolving.And now we're seeing, you know, um, CXOs, et cetera. I mean, what's your thoughts on that?
Do you feel that, you know, the role of CMO is going to be over and that, you know, we're now going to be looking at, I don't know, chief growth officers or chief customer officers or CXOs more so, or can you see that there's always going to be a place for that typical core sort of CMO remit?
I think all our roles are evolving.And certainly, I think what, you know, what we've been doing in previous years won't be what we're doing in the future.
So I think that people that can evolve with customers, with customer expectations and technology.But you're right, the CMO role is very broad and will have a
It can cover, you know, customer support, which is changing hugely with AI and all the different benefits of technology that, you know, Martech, analytics. your traditional marketing, brand building, creative, your lifecycle marketing, growth.
So there's a lot there.And the people that can do that really well and bring it all together, I think are people that can build great teams and have great people about around them.
with strong subject matter expertise, but to be able to understand what they're doing and bring that together around a central mission.
So, one of the podcasts I listened to, Diary of a CEO, Stephen Bartlett, I heard the other day that he spent 60 or 70% of his time recruiting people. I thought, how can this be possible?
You know, he's running all these, you know, multiple businesses, but that's how getting the right people into his organisation is to him.So, the role of the CMO, Chief Customer Officer will continue to evolve.
And I think the people that will thrive are ones that can really evolve with the market.
Yeah, I think you bang on.Absolutely.I think it's, um, yeah, I've, I've seen it certainly happen and it's evolving and it's happening more and more.
Um, so yeah, I think in the next couple of years, it'll be interesting to see where, where that all lands.That's for sure.
In terms of, I guess, when reflecting a little bit, when you look at any sort of key challenges that you've had in your career, what would you say have been the biggest learnings for you?
And I know that's quite a broad question, but I mean, we sort of, I feel like with somebody like yourself, when you're that real sort of senior CX expert, you're very much the glue in between so many different departments.
And that can be a really tough gig because you're trying to get so many stakeholders aligned, get them on the same page, sort of almost bang the CX drum and advocate for the customer.So it's bringing in everyone.
Has that been something that's pretty quite tough over the years to sort of like handle and navigate?
It can be.And I think, yeah, you've got to have not only strong technical skills, but you've also got to have those soft skills as well, which I think even even more important with the growth of technology.
So, those people that can, you know, evolve their people skills, the soft skills, you know, empathy with other people, empathy with customers, the ability to collaborate.And that's not necessarily something that's taught at university.
I did some work a few years ago with a really great app called Hody.So that's a good one to check out, because that is all around those people skills that, or soft skills or human skills.
But that's super important to be able to bring people together. What I find though, bringing people together around a problem or a customer is a great way to align people.So, it's not necessarily a department thing.
It's not this department's trying to drive something.
It's, we have a problem to solve for, for customers, or we have an opportunity, or we're seeing people dropping out of our join program and, you know, spent time and effort in, and money acquiring them.So it's bringing together data, customers.
Some of the work I do is around journey mapping.So looking
what the end-to-end customer journey is, visualizing where people drop out, where the pain points are, verbatims, etc, pulling that all together, a lot of sort of video assets, things like that, and that can be a great way to
to bring people together and have them on the same page.
So I think, Lucy, you've been into the Flybuys office, so you've seen some of the work that I've done up on their wall, which is a great reminder of like what the customer journey is and how that's, how that's changing.
And, you know, real-time monitoring that you can add to that. Likewise, with another client, Cash Rewards, that visualization of the customer journey sits outside their boardroom.
What a great reminder of who the customer is and where those, in their context, where those moments of opportunity, moments of yay are that they want to dial up for their customers.
Absolutely.And, and I think that's really important.I mean, I remember, um, working with one of the big major tier, uh, one banks back in 2000, I think 17, 18, it was very much, we're all about the customer and I've heard it happen, you know, since.
And I think, you know, there's a real difference.
I feel like when businesses are willing to sort of really sort of, you know, showcase that sort of, you know, customer journey map in a receptionist area or a foyer really shows how, you know, I think that says a lot about, you know,
It is interesting because you hear some people say, oh, let's, we'll put it in the back room.We don't want people to see it.Well, we do because like every organisation has, you know, challenges and things that they want to focus on.
So let's, let's not shy away from that. front and center, and let's get people around that platform and build things.
And then let's monitor that as well, so, so that it's not a static sort of asset and that you can see that movement into more valuable, you know, segments, if you want to use that sort of terminology, or greater levels of engagement by, you know, getting different things in their hands that they need to be a successful member based on your, based on your research.
Absolutely.I want to talk a little bit more about personal branding.
So I think as we, you know, evolve and perhaps get a little bit more senior, I mean, you get, yeah, you get asked to be on podcasts and perhaps be on judges and panels and all that kind of jazz.
Is that something that, have you actually worked to that yourself or is it something that is on the to-do list to sort of work more on? I mean, what, what would you say?
Cause I know there's a lot of, I guess, managers that perhaps are wanting to, you know, evolve more so around that and actually, you know, amp that up.But sometimes people just say they're not interested.It's not for them and that's fine.
Then there's others that go, well, I don't really know where to start.
Yeah, I think, look, having a personal brand is, I think, is really important.It gives you an opportunity to give back to your peers and the community that you work with.It gives you an opportunity to share your voice and hear from other people.
And, you know, I think if that is an area of interest, it's just a matter of kind of of starting somewhere.
A lot of us have a platform through LinkedIn, for example, and that's a really great way to share, share insights, share your learning and also look at, you know, what others are doing and add your voice to that as well.
And speaking on panels is a really great way to sort of enter into that world as well.It's a little bit less probably
confronting than, you know, doing a keynote speech, which I've done before, but that requires a lot of effort and work to pull that all together, whereas being on a panel of half a dozen people who are contributing to a topic.
But it's, I suppose, like thinking about my career and particularly in sales and as a strategist, something that's really important is being able to communicate effectively, either from a written perspective or from a verbal perspective as well.
And for 12 years, really clearly and communicate that to others.And I've worked with, with many people, and I find that is a challenge that a lot of people face in that they might be absolutely brilliant at the job or
technically brilliant, but having, one, the confidence and the skills to know how to communicate what they're doing to others, we may not be in that space as well.
So how do you communicate that you have implemented a really amazing experience for customers that's going to, you know, deliver a multi-touchpoint journey?
You know, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a challenge to be able to do that effectively and clearly.And also, communicate to people either at different levels or with different styles.
So at senior levels of the organisation, people do not want a really, really lengthy download often.Not to be able to do that if that's necessary, but how do you succinctly, you know, tell that, tell that story as well.
So it's definitely a skill emerging marketeers should think about storytelling, communication. You know, and it's, for a lot of people, the only way to do it is to practice.So, some people say, oh, that person's a great presenter.You go, okay.
Well, I've just seen them practicing.You know, I've seen them practicing their presentation in their room or online or, you know, so it's not something that comes naturally to a lot of people.
You're right.Absolutely.I think you hit the nail on the head.
I mean, I think it even comes down to, I guess, from my perspective, like I meet some incredible, you know, individuals, but they might not have interviewed in a long time and even how they communicate them, articulate their experience, you know, you have to, it's all about practice.
Practice makes perfect, right?So whether you're going to be a judge, a keynote speaker, interviewing, you know, I think, The ability to articulate your individual story, your journey is just, yeah, 100%, it's so important.
I think you've got to be able to, to, to communicate the work you're doing as well.Yeah, absolutely.
You know, growing in an organization, people need, you need to be visible and you need to have people be clear about the value that you're, that you're adding.So it's, yeah, super important.
Absolutely.And just finally, before we wrap up, I wanted to, I guess, understand, in terms of sort of, is there any, when you look back again, like at your career, and I want to sort of look at things like legacy and I guess impact.
So within that sort of CX remit, you know, is there anything that I guess when you think about the people you've managed, you think about the projects you've worked on, you know, what's important to you?
Like, how would you want to be remembered within your big career?
I think there's probably three ways to look at legacy.One is, you know, the work that you've
delivered and the assets, you know, whether that be interactive dashboards that are used on a weekly basis to track, you know, where your customers are at in terms of their engagement with the brand.
It could be some of the work I mentioned around, you know, high impact visual assets that live in your organisation.It could be some of the always on journeys that you've delivered
you know, how people are being welcomed to an organization based on what you've designed, based on customer research and pain points.So there's that aspect of it.
The other part of, I think, a legacy is within the people that you work with and the people that you manage.So I think the responsibility of a leader is to create other leaders.Yeah. well.So it's how, how have you done that?
And what has your impact been on, on others?And then the third aspect is on culture as well.
You know, you hope that, that your impact is on the culture of the organization, how people are thinking about customer experience, how people are thinking about the use of, the use of technology.So there's 3 ways to think about, about legacy.
that people and culture are super important.
A hundred percent, you know, a hundred percent.
I think it's about thinking, I know for me personally, I look back at people I've worked with and, you know, I'll always remember that, you know, the fun times and, you know, that hopefully the people I've may have managed or had interactions with, you know, you want to make, feel like you've made a difference at least.
Malek, I really enjoyed our conversation today, James.Thank you so much for your time.It's been great to chat to the CX Wizard himself, so thank you.
Thanks, Lucy.Yeah, it's been amazing to chat.I'm loving your podcasts and the other guests that have been on, so I will, yeah, continue to listen and learn.Thank you.
Amazing. Remember the road to CMO isn't always linear, it's filled with challenges, decisions and moments of transformation.
Whether you're charting your course or navigating a career shift, the experiences wisdom shared today as with our guests is invaluable.
Thank you for joining us, keep dreaming big, keep pushing boundaries and remember that your journey towards becoming a CMO is as much about the destination as it is about the growth you experience along the way.
Until next time, continue to innovate, evolve and carve out your path to CMO.
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