Welcome, everyone, back to the Ribbon Book Club, a Dear America podcast.The podcast where we discuss old, and I mean old as in millennial, John generation.
They are no longer in print, a series of historical fiction books that I grew up reading.And I mean, my name is Jen.Hi, I'm Kate.That was a long extended intro.
These books were around when I was a kid, but I didn't read them because I didn't read anything that was marketed for girls.And we're unpacking that.Yeah.Internalized misogyny is real, real.Yeah.
So the last time, as we're on part two, just a reminder, we are following the story of Zippy.Yep.Real name is Zippora.Zippy.
She's 12 years old.And she has emigrated from Russia to New York, the United States.And she is. kind of wrestling with what it is to make these big changes in her life, to become more American and what that is.
She's also going through changes of a young woman, so she's looking around kind of, not that, it doesn't have to be, you're going through changes.It's a
I mean like she's kind of getting ready to get married in some ways so she's looking around at like what makes a good spouse.
She's not getting married but she's she's looking at other people falling in love and she's she's becoming more aware I think of of that world but no.I think that's well stated.No dirty no crushes During the the plot of the book.
No, I would say from no, but certainly around for other people.Yeah, and that gets a fair bit of Discussion between her and her girlfriends and her sisters her older sister Tova Yeah, who is a kind of rebel Union leader.I love Tova.I
She's pretty fantastic.Yeah, her immediately older sister middle child Miriam who is in love with the Irish shabash goy firefighter Seems like a real great guy Yeah, I'm a fan.His name is Sean O'Malley.Sean O'Malley.And her father is a musician.
Her mother is a seamstress, but only recently.Her mother used to be basically a homemaker in Russia, and she thinks that's very much like the arena that women should be in.
Yeah, I imagine she was sewing clothes back there too, but it wasn't in like- Not a professional sense.
Yeah, not in a business- For like her family.Yeah. Um, so with that, um, she has two main friends.One is, uh, Yitzi.He's kind of, uh, the guy you know who, who knows everybody.
He reminds me of the business boy from Hook.
Did I say this last time?You did.
um here and i may have said he reminds me of the artful dodger yeah he's also giving like newsies yeah big newsies energy which is this news is the appropriate time is it oh yeah newsies is late 1800s yeah as i are in 1903-4 yes um uh and then her other friend is named blue yes who i cannot remember what blue is short for
Blumenthal?That doesn't seem right.I want to say Blumen, but that might not be right either.Anyway, she's called Blue and she's struggling to learn English and catch up.
Yeah, well and we have the added difficulty of her father abandoning the family.
And so he runs off and so she's left with her mother and her siblings and her mother's about to give birth and then she does and so she's kind of pulled in to help take care of her family rather than focus on her studies.
I think that's an important lesson about how people who fall behind academically, it's often not because they're dumb, but because of life circumstances.
That's so true.And I think it's something that a lot of kids who are in more sheltered, protected situations don't deal with.
Yeah, so it has a lot to say, I think, about how equality and equity and opportunity can really help everyone shine.Yeah.So far, I'm really liking that message.It's very kind of optimistic.
This book is very thick in optimism and good messages.I think that Katherine Lasky, as an author particularly, shoot.So as I've said before, the function of children's literature is to impart morals and lessons and things that we want kids to know.
And I'm pleased with this book in particular, the series as a whole, but this book in particular for how depth and thoughtful the messaging is.And I think you just hit the head nail on a head.
That was a really good one that, you know, it's not that Blue is dumb.Right.She is struggling because her family is struggling and kids are not in control of their situation.Like people who are like, you know, my kid's getting Crayola.
I'm not going to contribute Crayola for everybody's kids to use.Absolutely.Fill me with rage.
yeah i think if i were to say like the the founding like the most idealistic value of this country and what actually makes me the most patriotic is that idea that if we can give everyone a shot you know despite like the circumstances of their birth you know everyone deserves a chance to
see what they can do with their life yeah and the choices yes the choices right one of the reasons that blue's family or i'm sorry not blue zippy's family has come to the united states is that the government in russia was instituting pogroms and also uh drafts for the czar's war against uh japan and other places
And so anytime a government starts taking choices away from people, that's bad.
I mean, there's some stuff we all have to pay taxes, right?Yeah.That's fine, especially when the taxes go to things like public schools and public libraries and feeding people.
I'm less excited about, I don't know, blowing up children in the Middle East.Yeah.
i think we'll get there um yeah so let's dive in um i think where we left off we um we're zippy was seeing you know noticing that like miriam her sister was like disappearing at night and um she we just had the valentine's day and so she gets a valentine
from Sean and a big one too the description of it i think it would have been quite hard to hide from the lady who does all your laundry how do you hide things in a tenement that you share with six other members of your household yeah so it's people are
falling in love um the very next entry we have tova organizing a cloth workers union for women in the needle trade did you notice what her union goals were yes um what what did she say
It's on page 81.Women have to wait longer on payday and their toilets stink.So mostly it's money and toilets.I was kind of disappointed with Tova at first because those seem like really petty goals.
I do think this is Zippy's interpretation.That's a very good point.But it's also true and it's true to life of garment workers at that time was that
And for society as a whole was that women in public were not very well, like there weren't, around this time was when they were just starting to consider women being in public.
Being in the workforce, being in public, like public toilets.
Restrooms at all.Yeah.Like really we're not.
That weren't just urinals.
a thing that was like men would just like go off and like you know pee in the street you know like just stand against in an alley or something and that was just what it was like oh well you know it's fine and and the society did not as a whole consider that women might also want to be out in the world to be out they have jobs yeah yeah and so it's
the better toilets thing i feel like considering what they must have been like i would rather not consider that thank you i'm gonna let that just and also just like access to them to be able to go whenever you need to go and not like at designated times because as we'll find out later in the story well let's not
um uh the people who ran these these sweatshops um really were not keen to let their workers kind of come and go as they needed to.So anyway um we have some good Tantafruma uh witticisms.
I love Tantafruma and in addition to that we soon get Uncle Tantafruma.
uh uncle fruma which is no it's not it's not his name schmooly which is better i love it fruma and schmooly what like what a great couple name benefer could never uh i was very excited about um the second half of this book and how much they pack in for for not having like a real set problem
Like, they're not getting through the American Revolution, for example.For not having a set problem, it's kind of a slice of life, and it's very comforting.Like, it's just like a little family drama.
It actually reminds me, as we're reading, they talk about the St.Louis State Fair at one point in time.And if you've ever seen the play Meet Me in St.Louis, or the movie, which is based on the play,
I'm never going to say it that way, because I am from the North.So no, I mean Meet Me in St.Louis.It's starring Judy Garland.
Do you sing the song like that, too?
Well, no, I do it the way Judy set it up.
Meet me in St.Louis, Louis.
Meet me at the piss?I don't know.The fair?Well, I know that part.
It doesn't rhyme with Louis.
So anyway, the original play is a family comedy, a domestic comedy, and I feel like this book works with the wealth of characters, you get that same wealth of characters in Meet Me in St.Louis.
And for being similar time periods, but different parts of the country, they're very interesting, different cultural set also, but they could stand next to each other as sister like bookends.
yeah it also um as we were comparing it a lot last time reminds me of fiddler on the roof where you have like the family drama kind of standing in is as like a microcosm yes of like the society and like what the growing pains of of immigration and americanization um and how how different people are kind of
either clinging to the past or like running from it and you know embracing this new country that they're in yeah and wanting to like forget tradition or you know so i love that i i just think these are very well written um where do we leave off i'm sorry so
I'm trying to see where Uncle Shmuley comes in.
Uncle Shmuley comes in at one of the holidays but not Purim.So let's briefly touch on Purim because it's what comes up next.I'm not sure if it's Purim or Purim or Purim.It's spelled Purim.Yeah, P-U-R-I-M.Now we are Protestant. Basically.We are goys.
Right.So we're not trying to butcher but we recognize we are probably butchering.I do know a little bit about the holiday and she explains a little bit.
It's basically and this is how the shorthand that I've heard used it's called Jewish Halloween.Yeah.Which like
the best love that uh this is taking place though and i'd february i didn't realize that it's also based on the story of esther yeah who uh was it was that story was famously portrayed in veggie tales at one point, so that's how I know it.
Well, yeah, that's a good way to get to know the Old Testament through vegetables that sing and dance.
One of the best ways to learn the Bible is through anthropomorphic vegetables.
Listen, I think you're right.Also, they cover the grapes of wrath.
just literature in general anyway esther is one of the best books of the bible and you know the the torah i'll be perfectly honest i'm deeply unfamiliar with it at first when they were talking about it i was like oh i wonder if that's in our bible it is it's a whole book of the bible there you go and it's and it's one of the only chick name i can think of from the bible is ruth like the book of ruth not mary is there a book of mary i don't know but she's our lord and savior okay so like what i'm saying is
Also Mary, very famously, not in the Old Testament.You said, okay, okay, okay.Anyway.God, we're splitting hairs here on the Ribbon Book Club.
Splitting, splitting ribbons.That's right.Oh, God.
So Purim, Jewish Halloween, they dress up.Yeah.There's costumes, they give out candies and sweets.I really want to try a sour bowl.
they also notably will like give like prepare food to and gifts to people in need and i i made a note that they chose the wolf family to give to and i was like as blue like how would i feel right my best friend's family where it was like here you go right and like on the one hand like
yeah like she well and they're good enough friends that i think it's probably okay well and and and zippy is like being very um caring and like teaching tutoring blue on the side so like and advocating for her in general so i i have thought that it was fine and maybe yeah but no i it occurred to me as well i was like a little rough like who did they give it to right
Anyway, let's move on from that.We have some more interactions at the theater, the Yiddish theater.
How much do I love this section?I love also, yes, Boris.I don't know how we met Boris.He kind of, like he and Mandy and Mamie, Marnie?I don't remember her name.Yeah.Uh just kind of show up and I don't remember them from the first half of the book.
They yeah I think that I'm trying to remember how they show up too but yeah they're like they're just they work at the theater.I'm trying to remember how she met people who like worked at the theater because she was you know she.
Maybe it all starts when she gets her father the job playing for the
yeah she gets her father the job but then they also get tickets to see the play which is like in the same district and um there is a yiddish theater district i think it's still operating in new york yeah how is it i i think so i mean i've heard of one before and i don't think the yiddish theater district is happening in like grand rapids
yeah we don't even have a decent deli around here tragic um so but yeah she's she's hanging out at the theater a boris is you know recognizing that she seems to really like the theater and he seems like a friend of the family yeah and he's like well maybe with a play that needs children and you can audition yeah love all that
I'm gonna I'm just gonna it's also picked out to be the like featured entry on the back um but it's a this entry um says I forgot to tell you that yesterday Boris said to me well Zippy maybe some play that is coming up will need children and you can audition
I said, from your mouth to God's ears, Boris.Now I can think of nothing else.I told Miriam last night in bed my secret dreams of wanting to be an actress.She squeezed my hand.It was a squeeze that seemed to say we both have secret dreams.
Mine, the theater, and hers, love.Then she said, what is it about this country that makes one dream such big dreams?I yawned sleepily and said, yes, I knew what she meant and took a look at Tova with her union dreams.
There's something in the air here in America that does this to people. It's a space.
Yeah.There's just a lot of land.We've got to fill it up with dreams.
But where they're at in a tenement?Probably a lot less space.
I don't know.New York must have felt huge compared to their village.Well, yeah.So I don't know.
This tenement, and this is not a criticism, the tenement that is being described here, it seems homey and warm and nice and neighborly, whereas the tenements that I I'm aware of from history are not.
It's like a place where children got rickets because the sun didn't get to them.Oh, yeah.So I don't know.This is a different tenement than what I was expecting.I expected much more dark, much more dangerous, where this is just homey and nice.
This book doesn't hurt us.
I think it matters, too, that like,
they pretty much have it to themselves like their apartment right they're not sharing it with multiple families right um which certainly did happen there was reb simca but old chicken bones oh oh reb um yeah uh just oi um but it was just it wasn't at all i expected this book to be much darker and yes not yeah um
uh oh anyway she she auditions for the play and they don't cast her because she's too tall which i had the same experience when i was in high school um we did the sound of music and i was called back i think to for one of the kids roles.
To be Yvonne Trapp?To be Yvonne Trapp.Oh my goodness.My only time having a callback and I was put in a lineup of like all the like people they were considering and I was like trying to look as short as possible like she's doing and I was too tall.
dang it so i didn't get it that is rough yeah yeah so i know that feeling so i just want to look at my notes uh what page have you got in front of you so that was um page 90 but i think okay so then here's where uncle shmuley comes in is page 90 uh during pesach yeah uh i did i wrote down all of the jewish holidays i do not know the difference between a high holiday or a
Yeah, where do they even go?I don't know.
I have no idea.I only know about the word high holiday because of rent.So, right?This is how I get these little tastes of culture.But in Pesach, that's when Uncle Shmuley comes.
And briefly afterwards, she spends a lot of time complaining about Reb Simca.Yes, yes, yes, yes.And then suddenly, I'm like, I wrote down, I was like, this is ominous.
Well, I said, there will be a point to Reb Simca, like there was a point to Mrs. Big. Yeah.And then literally the next entry, Rebsimka is dead as a doornail.Oof.It kind of seems like he went out having a stroke or an apoplexy.Oh, yes.
So what page have you got?Okay, so. um he dies on page 95 okay so not very not very long after but she does spend a great deal of time complaining oh i see okay the literally the okay the the entry before um
She's she's saying so it's half an hour until Leach's busy bench and leech leech bench in which I think is lights out Guess what uncle moist and uncle schmooly are both going to work part-time for yet C's father and uncle schmooly is going to do the job yet C offered to Papa I feel so left out.
That's another thing that we could go back to it.
Oh, yeah, we should actually talk about yeah, because In the three parts of this book, beginning, middle, end, that we see, Papa's career changes quite a bit.At the beginning, he's strictly a sweatshop worker.He kind of hates it.
There was dust on his violin, which was kind kind of tragic and if we can use I don't maybe this is a reach but it's my very favorite term from literary criticism cynic ducky Oh, do you know that one?
Okay, so a cynic ducky is, first off, spelled amazingly.S-Y-N-C-H-E-D-O-C-H-E.Cynic ducky.
And it's where you take a small part or a feature to represent the whole.So if you are looking at a sailor's hands and they're all ragged and rough and worn as what those would say about his life.So that's a cynic ducky.
I think some of the cynic duckies that we see are these like key items
uh that matter to the people in these households this tenement uh so dust on father's violin would be a cynic ducky for where he is at the beginning of the story right mama her wig throughout yes her wig is her attachment and we revisit the idea a lot yes um but it's her attachment to the old ways her shtetl and the way things worried russia
yeah so this drama gets introduced we're because we're going back to her to this um so yitzi throughout this story is hustling hustling trying to get that bag you know like he he and his father too are are very
business-oriented they're on that grind set you know and so at the theater Yitzi looks around and sees some wealthier you know uptown folks wearing these cloaks and he's like oh your mom could make these this could be a business
and um that's you know seems like an exciting thing because like that's just apparently like you know the people in the lower east side they're mostly wearing shawls or kind of like blankets essentially in the winter and he's like this is a new market like we could make manufacture cloaks and like cheaper winter coats for the lower class people um so based on the designs that Yitzi's father kind of clocks yes yes
So we hear on April 8th, very good news.Yitzi's father has an order for over 200 ladies and children's cloaks from his samples.Now Yitzi is running around looking for a space where they can set up to make them.And he is going to need lots of help.
I say to Yitzi, maybe he would hire my father.And he says, I have better plans for your father.Guess what Yitzi's plans are?He wants Papa to be the boss of the shop.
uh to do the hiring and organize the workload and get bundles and distribute them he says that his father is not organized and my father would be better at this i think this is very interesting but i'm not sure i think my father might have to be convinced and then the next entry
Convinced?Did I say convinced?We have never had such a fight in our family.And so she tells Papa about Yitzi's idea.And he said no and, quote, picked up his violin to start practicing before going to rehearsal for the next concert.
Mama says, why not, Yakul?It would make good money.Good money is Mama's code for no more border, no more Reb Zimka. I am all for that.So when we all start talking, I say, it would be great, and Tova and Miriam agree.
Suddenly, without warning, Papa stood up, turning red, gripping the bow to the violin in his hand.He struck the air with it.You don't learn anything in a sweatshop except being a sweater.This is my favorite part of the book.I love this quote.
You think I came here to learn how to exploit it to be a boss?That is vile.Never.Never.Suddenly I think that maybe Papa is the old-fashioned one and Mama the real Yankee.I think Mama would open a sweatshop in a minute.Yikes.Yes.
Okay, so then we get back into where we were talking about like, yes, so Papa declines the job and then Uncle Shmuley is going to instead take that job.I feel so left out.Why can't Papa do this?Rebsinka smells worse than ever.I hate him.I hate him.
I hate him.And if Papa would take this job, we would not have to have Rebsinka as a boarder.
and then dies.I laughed out loud.I was on the needles this morning and I had just written down and then the next entry I was like okay.I don't really know if Reb Simca did have a literary point other than this moment of Jewish guilt.
Which is as much of a thing as Catholic guilt or Protestant guilt.It seems like, I don't know, I assume Muslim guilt must exist.So like every religion has that.Yeah, so she feels, she's just self-flagellating.She feels responsible.
She's like, what can I do?Absolutely nothing.Here is how.And then the description of how it happened is comical.
This is a very sweet domestic comedy book.
Yeah, so okay.Here is how it happened.He was sitting, as he always does, on the little cot like a pile of, yes, old smelly rags. Mama had just brought him his glass of evening tea, I can just picture this, as she always does, and a biscuit.
All of a sudden, it was as if he had been hit by lightning.He made a quick movement, he became rigid, his eyes locked in fright wide open, and he fell sideways.Like, this is...
this is a cartoon moment no it's brilliant i and i'm so glad because sometimes these books do nothing yeah to give you even an ounce of levity yeah and i i actually that brings up a good point that i wrote down comedy is very tied to jewish culture yeah
like yes they suffer but they're funny about it yeah right like there's such a and we see this in all the characters it's not just zippy almost every character has this really well-developed sense of humor yeah or specific worldview and i think it is
part of Jewish culture uh that is super admirable uh I feel like like literally if if if suffering is part of their worldview and like to be born is to suffer then to live is to laugh yeah and that's cool yeah it's this like sardonic humor that's you know like very dry but it'll get you through that almost gallows you yeah yeah but like makes sense
uh but yeah there's so he falls sideways and like they mom and i ran to him there were crumbs on his beard and a look of outrage in his eyes i think he was looking right at me and it is just what so yeah they they sit shiva for him which is also interesting because we had the shihan's um funeral the wake at the beginning for the baby yeah um and so we learned about you know kind of irish catholic
uh customs and so now she describes what sitting shiva is like so they cover the mirrors um we sit on low stools and some boxes um papa goes to work but i miss school um mama said i didn't have to but i have to i know i did because i know i did not cause rebzumka's death i mean i think i know that but how could i
have such terrible thoughts about the poor old man right before he died.And all because he was a little bit smelly.
Which like hoops among us.Yeah.If you are interested in Sitting Shiva and you want to learn more about it, there is a fantastic novel, also kind of a domestic comedy, but much darker than this and not for children.
It's called This Is Where I Leave You.They did turn it very well into a film and it's worth watching.The book is excellent, so is the movie.
um so we have some back to school stuff uh blue's been promoted to fourth grade yeah i'm really proud of her grade progression and the way she advocates for her friend throughout yeah zippy is as we said tutoring blue she's um they're reading and translating
a Yiddish newspaper and I think this the newspaper or the section they're reading it's called Bintel Brief.
I think that's just the section and I think it is an advice column.Yes.
um which will come up later um and then uncle shmuley moves in and she is happier yeah uncle shmuley is pretty great um and as a character he gets developed not like reb simca reb simca literally just lays there the whole time and then dies and that was his whole function i think he's supposed to be somewhat symbolic of
the death of the old ways the old yeah i i think there is space for an interpretation of that considering he talks about being a torah scholar and how that was kind of a dream of the old country and now the dreams of the new country would not be and who replaces him is specifically uncle shmuley who is taking this job as the boss of a sweatshop
And he's going to pay Zippy to tutor him in English.Yeah, which is pretty cool.Yeah, it is very cool.So she's coming up with like lists of words that are specific to the work that he's doing.
So like parts of the sewing machine, needles, threads, all that stuff.And then Tova comes up with a list of words for him to read.And here's part of her list.Union.Organized.Oppressed.Exploited.
Love Tova.She'd be a fun character to play.She's like, if you're gonna be the boss, I'm gonna teach you about what you're doing.Oh, that's, listen, I think that's a conversation that's worth having.Yeah.
Although I will say, I love how many labor ideas are in this book, because we don't normally talk to young children about that.I did not know what a union was until my father had to join one to be a teamster.So
I have a positive view of them, but a lot of people that I grew up with did not.And that was a really interesting thing.
And I lacked a lot of the knowledge about union history that Zippy would have had, that Tova would have had to talk about those ideas in my baby liberalness.
um often like propaganda like there's so much propaganda against unions out there um about like oh they're taking your paycheck and they're you know causing all this bureaucracy and it's particularly when it comes to like physical labor um like stage hands where like oh you can't touch that because that's a union job and
and oh now you have to take your union mandated break oh you have to you know it's like i mean who doesn't want a break when they're at work heaven forbid so yeah this book is a good lesson on like this is why we need unions right um and we will we will learn that so yeah tova and we don't have to necessarily go page by page if you think the conversation would flow just say so because we're not reading everybody the book
no you're right um sorry that sounded really aggressive but i was i was getting hopped up about unions no but i want to i do want to kind of save that for later because of like the character that it talks about yeah um so so anyway um but um so we have a trip uptown to because mama's doing her her fittings
and so the family that they're doing work for the uptown german jews yeah the meyers they are being photographed in the music room and as they're they're kind of like waiting around and zippy's like kind of
wandering around and she peeks in the room and she sees that who's the photographer?Mr. Wolf, Baloo's father.The audacity.Yeah and he sees them through like you know
by accident and they have this kind of tense moment as he's leaving and Zippy follows him out and she says Mr. Wolf and and he doesn't turn around at first and then she's like shouts again and she's like and he turns around and he says I'm not Mr. Wolf young lady you must be mistaken and then he climbs in the cab and leaves and and she's like you have a family it's very dramatic
I don't we never see him again through the course of this book and I sort of would have loved. I just want an explanation.Why?
Yeah, you want that catharsis of him explaining why he left.But you know it's not going to be good.No, yeah.Maybe he already had another wife.Or it's going to be some garbage like, oh, I couldn't provide for you, so I left.I left you in poverty.
Right.What?Any amount that you could have done would surely have been better for the family than you just leaving them. 1,000%.
so no it's but there's that is a frequent thing that you hear and it's it's the toxic umness of patriarchy on men who are all taught that like you're not seeing if you're not providing if you don't provide for your family and so so many men will feel just like
so deeply that they have to provide for their family and if they don't if they don't have a good enough job if they're not making enough money they're worthless and you have literally literally men just abandoning their family because they get into debt or you know they're just at this dead-end job and they don't get that promotion like and it's sad
It's sad for everyone, because also sometimes they can't.OK, anyway.All right, I almost went somewhere, and I was like, no, we don't need to talk about that.This is not what this podcast is about.Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.A matchmaker comes.
OK, this one made me sweat for a second, because I thought for sure it would be for Zippy.Oh, no, no, no.She's young.She's young.She's too young. But she's trying to make a match for Tova.Right.She's the oldest, right?
But remember, if part one, we decided that this book was the spiritual successor of Fiddler.Yeah.And the ages don't matter in that.We're lining up all the daughters.
well but i feel like they're trying to get the oldest one married off first yep yeah absolutely so tova this is also she's already in love not tova the girl mary fiddler well oh yes anyway so this is like a very kind of moulin moment too where the the matchmaker's like
and they have this horrible interaction because Tova's being Tova and she's talking about her union she's like she knows exactly what's going on so she comes in she's like oh yes i'm in a union i'm very outspoken i am i have so many opinions and the matchmaker's like she's like you'll never get married isn't that the best i was so proud of tova it's like good for you girl and uncle schmooly's like
yeah i appreciate him a great deal he moves in to the household to cover the boarding cost of reb simca yes and he's a more present figure going forward he kind of gets a beginning middle end as well yeah because this book has such good form i i agree um we have uh she has her birthday and they take her to the theater wasn't that nice papa brings her all these
She thought like she thought it was gonna be really sad like at first cuz everyone was acting like Distracted her her mom's sick.
Yes, her mother's sick as a page 106 And I was like, oh I was like, oh here comes the depressing tenement stuff Yeah, but they make it pretty clear that it's morning sickness.Yeah, like the following page.
I'm like, oh mom is knocked up It's like she's puking in the morning
I was like we all know what that means um and yeah they go to the theater and then her father ends up bringing a big bunch of flowers and it's it's cute right that sounds like a solid birthday yeah um okay oh she gets so um she writes to uh the advice column bintel brief um from the jewish daily forward that's the name of the paper
and she writes up to them about Mr. Wolf and like, what should I do?Should I tell my friend?And they respond, which I was like, why are you writing to the advice column that you're reading with Blue?
I thought that would be a plot point.And no, it never comes up.When I write this as a play, it will.Yes. Well, it just, yeah, I was like, how are you going to hang on?Also, I want Mr. Wolf to have read it and know that it's about him.Yeah.
Because, like, every time, maybe this is just me because I'm a bit of a narcissist, but, like, do you worry every time you start to read an AITA story that you're going to be the person on the other side?Because, like, I worry about that every time.
I'm like, oh, no, I don't have a brother.Right?Like, stuff like that.That's literally never crossed my mind.Oh, that's because I'm a narcissist and you're a normal, decent person.So. I think that's anxiety.
It is, but it's kind of like narcissistic anxiety.Like, I'm worried everything's about me.
I saw a TikTok recently that was like someone saying like, you know the the Chase Bank money glitch that is really just people committing check fraud? Yes, and I love it.And this is dating us to when this is being recorded.
But yeah, for the uninitiated, there was this supposed realization that you could write a check for a huge amount of money, deposit it, and cash it.And use that money.
Cash it, and then, oh, whoops, it's a bad check, and it doesn't go through, but you've got the money.That is a crime.Yep. Don't do that.It's a very well-documented crime.It's not a glitch.It's check fraud, and you can go to prison for it.
For so many years.And so a bunch of people were doing it, and apparently Chase is compiling all the data.Because it's also very easy to track.Right, because they're using their checks.Their own checks.And you go to an ATM where there's cameras.
Or deposit it with your cell phone on your home Wi-Fi. And so people are like, Chase is like drawing up documents to get all these people arrested for check fraud.
I'm so excited about it.Anyway, this.I don't think I've enjoyed anything so much as when they started rounding up the January 6th people.That's what this is for me.It's delicious.It is delicious.
Don't do this. Stupido.Anyway, so there was one girl on TikTok who was like, I have never done this.I haven't had a Chase account in years.And yet, I am still freaked out that they're somehow going to come arrest me.Anxiety, baby.We've all got it.
That's anxiety.Anyway, so where are we?
Oh, what a great question.
Oh, yeah, the advice column.So they do write back, and they're like,
yeah you really can't do anything like well you've already answered your own question yeah like this treacherous man has no intention of coming back to his family um you know just move on and it's yeah oh geez
So this is one, well, we can talk about it at the end, but I want to talk about what it is to make a good spouse and what this book is saying about that.So I've got a couple examples, but we'll get through the rest of our content.
oh um we're coming up on miriam and sean well we 112 yeah speaking of romance though blue thinks that her mother and uncle schmooly are as the american expression goes sweet for each other yeah um they have july 4th in central park they have fireworks and a very like kind of american sounding fourth which is kind of fun um oh and then drama page 112 yep miriam and sean got married
eloped they eloped which let me tell you that is the way to get married as someone who didn't do it right i had the big wedding and i have never had a gray hair in my life until after that wedding that's also how time goes
I get that, but it was a little early.I was 24.
All right, all right.Yeah, that's fair.Yeah, planning a wedding, I have heard, is very, very stressful.I've seen people do it.But that's not why Miriam and Sean are eloping.They elope because they know that her parents would never approve.
We never hear about his family and whether or not they approve. it doesn't seem likely probably not but um i mean like by law yeah their children will come out jewish that's true because um to anti-semitic people oh that's also part of jewish law
Oh, OK.For children to be born Jewish, the mother has to be Jewish.
OK.I was thinking of the one drop thing, which is how we consider people to be black or white.
It's also, in the black community, if you have 1% of white, then you're a little too white to be here.Okay.
So it just depends on which community you're looking at.Like humans are humans.
I was thinking more of a like systematic racism.
Yeah.And that's completely valid, especially when you consider that regardless of the culture, white Protestantism is the dominant group in America.
So you're not wrong.I'm just saying it goes both ways.It does.
And especially in this regard, where yeah, they're like, neither family is going to be happy is happy.Mama starts acting like Miriam has died.
Which is a lot.It is a lot.And also for a culture that like if we think it or pray it we put it into being.Do you want your daughter to actually be dead?This actually.I got mad at mama.
Zippy gets mad at mama she like so she starts covering the mirrors and doing like what we saw that they did for Rep Simca um and she's like why are she's not dead why are you we sitting shiva um zippy is not on board we're not on board um papa's not on board papa's not entirely no i'm sure papa's away from the house because she's got union duties that was that was at the year she's busy um
yes so but it's also important to just like acknowledge that zippy also doesn't approve right uh she says like it's it's been a while you know i have come to be angry with mama i think sitting shiva for miriam is stupid i do not approve of what miriam did but she is not dead she is in love and although her marrying makes her family unhappy she makes sean happy and sean makes her happy i cannot pretend she is dead um
yeah and then they love so the family is fighting people aren't agreeing about it um uh i she says i hate mama's old country ways i hate her shuttled uh yeah shtetl village ways i wish she would take off her ugly wig i wish she would be more american her english like she's really kind of going in on like yeah she's feeling she's angry with everybody yeah like there is no winner here in zippy's eyes
except for maybe Miriam who is theoretically quite happy but she doesn't she still doesn't know if she approves I now
think if i were 12 also i would be like i don't know a dog like this so i okay so this drama reminds me of what like the modern equivalent to it which is why i was getting a lot of feelings about it is um parents like
and gay children or trans children and children either choosing to leave their household or getting kicked out and the parents pretending that they've died and like that still happens it's not usually about who you marry as much anymore probably still is for some people but like it's much more common now unfortunately for that to just be because of your sexuality or gender
and so but I do relate to Zippy being that kid and growing up in that culture to be like because like I was not particularly like
um you know oh every you know affirming everything you know like the early aughts were a very homophobic time word and you you're you're just like oh i don't know how to feel about it it's weird and then you get exposed to you know the fact that like they're perfectly normal people and it's totally fine like it's that's why i wish we would have seen more of the o'malley's
as a family yeah um but still um you know with the she hands across the hall we've got enough yeah so i'm an irish happening yeah so but zippy is just like she has some things to unlearn herself so when i rewrite this for the stage yeah the she hands aren't going to be there that's going to be the o'malley's and then the two mothers are going to bond
over how mad they are at both children.And then they're gonna come to it like, what do you mean she's not good enough for him?What do you mean he's not good, you know?And then that's how they get there.So like when I rewrite this.
I think if Miriam were the main character, maybe that would have been how it would be done.
Maybe I'll do that in the movie version.Yeah.
um so it's it's um july it's hot they're sleeping on the roof which i love again yeah i expected the tenement to be grosser and dirtier and now like there's this roof they have access to and it's so romantic it really is so romantic the roof is for lovers she is seen um uh she yeah it's literally it says i also heard that
OK.She says the roof.Maybe it's the woodchuck.Oh, possibly.
We have a woodchuck, guys, that lives under our outbuilding.Yeah.And Jen and I just heard something.And it smells like skunk out here also.So critters abound.But I thought I heard some.We're in Michigan, baby.It's the wild.That's right.
I thought I heard somebody try to walk in while we're recording.And then all of a sudden, it stopped.So maybe it's the woodchuck.Yeah.Settle it in.
Anyway. So the roof is definitely for lovers.Guess who I saw creeping across our roof towards the roof of number 20 orchard, the wolves building?Uncle Shmoley!Blue says she thinks her mother goes somewhere at night when they are all asleep.
Well I could tell her it's the roof. and i i was like good for them good for them i wonder how has been dead for 20 years i wonder like this just has me imagining um what it must have really been like does it feel very tony and maria
yeah it does um uh yeah just imagining like nighttime and people just kind of like it's like all big like camp out on the roof isn't that great yeah it makes me not like this is such a different vision than where i thought this book was gonna go yeah
then we learned that uh mama is indeed pregnant um and and zippy is not excited and also she's like she doesn't want to feel like maryam's being replaced by and i think that's fair i don't have the experience of my sibling getting married before i was progressed to that point myself and so i i would imagine
mm-hmm that it would feel like he or she took your sibling away mm-hmm at that replacement yeah would be jarring and galling mm-hmm and even though that's not mama's intent it's not like mama set out to get pregnant to replace Miriam yeah it just happened
Right, so but there's they're excited their mama hopes it's quietly It's a boy, but also she just hopes it's healthy, which is what everybody says.
Yeah, that's nice We have some Yitzi redemption arc here where he's like noticing that Zippy is sad and he like gets her Some Oh tickets to see a show
Yeah.All right, so that brings us to our third part about what makes a good spouse.So these are the references that I pulled when I was thinking about this.So Blue's father obviously is held as the negative.Yeah, he's the worst probably.
That guy sucks.And then Uncle Schmooly and Blue's mom is kind of burgeoning.We've got Miriam and Sean, which is love against the odds.And then Yitzi is a young, blooming love.Because Yitzi does not come out and say, hey, I'm madly in love with you.
Let's run away together.It's not suggested.
it is all we are just intuiting that that's what's i mean and we find out spoiler alert in the right they totally get married in the epilogue they totally get married but like there is no romance between them besides like this at this point yeah yeah um but i still love it um if we're having a conversation through these books with american children about what makes a good spouse if that is
a message here yeah look at what we're looking at we're looking at love is friendship love is redemptive and it's um what's really important for in regards to yitzi is like like she starts out describing him as like the most annoying kid ever yeah and i think there's a temptation with a lot of these kinds of like quote enemies to lovers or something like to be like oh he's so annoying that means he likes you no no no no right now it's when he starts
paying attention to her, and noticing her emotional state, and also caring about to do something, and knowing what will make her happy.
For anybody who's dating right now, that is half the battle.In our household, I come up with all the dates, by and large.
And the things where I feel really special is when Dan makes the effort to pick out something he think I would like, or something like that. And we go out and do something that isn't maybe his first choice.
For example, Dan does not enjoy Broadway musicals.I drag him to every single one that comes to town.
And I try to do things, like we watched a movie last night that I picked out for him because it was considered the Indian version of one of his favorite Japanese films. It's called Maharaja.It actually made me think of David's birthday.
It is not as good as RRR.Oh my gosh.But it was pretty good.
It has a really great twist and Dan's favorite film is a film called Old Boy.Your nieces and nephews are not allowed to watch Old Boy yet.It is not for kids.But it is shocking and Maharaja shocking in the same way and with similar themes.
So well worth watching.Please be aware that Indian film on average is three hours long.Yeah, was not we were an hour in and I was like, how much have we got left?And it was an hour and a half for me.And I was like, I don't know.
but it was worth it yeah so maharaja well worth watching bollywood films are a very different kind of media than american films this isn't stereotypical bollywood oh okay interesting it it's not you know like the 70s bollywood where the motorcycle's on its side rolling under like everything uh-huh
it's not it's more grounded in realism than that so like rrr with but less stylized quite good though okay does it have a musical and dance number tragically no oh okay i know i know that is tragic everything should have musical and dance numbers i agree that's my whole life
OK, so these couples.Yeah, I think that's where we were.These are all great examples of how relationships can be portrayed.
Well, and I think that there's enough canonical evidence to think that that is one of the things that this book is trying to accomplish if we're looking at it as a teaching tool for children.Because the lessons are kind of sparse through here.
yeah i think what it i think this book is kind of chock full of themes and and values um but um yeah i think it's interesting when when something that's like on the on the outset you could be like oh this is just historical fiction it's teaching people about a time period and what happened but like
yeah there are mentions of like names and dates and stuff but like so much of what it's doing is like giving you that slice of humanity that that is also applicable to your own life so absolutely i appreciate that um we have zippy is uh sneaking uptown to spy on miriam and sean they move up to 112th street and broadway which is quite far she has to take
she calls it the elevated train which is the early metro i think um and yeah that's getting expensive and time consuming but she can go spy on her sister which is such a little sister it is a little sister thing to do and she doesn't like miriam sees her at one point and she runs away like she's she doesn't have anything she's not prepared to actually speak with her um which is sad i mean it's i'm sure miriam's really going through it too because imagine like i would love to hear her side of
i am i imagine it was really hard for miriam to leave because it's not like she was not getting along with her family right um that we know of but um she just saw this opportunity for something bigger and she took it and that's kind of one of the themes of this book right like that's an immigrant story she immigrated out of her own culture yeah not only russia but also her family yes um we uh
Yeah and that tension is very alive in Mama as she writes on September 11th.She's still fighting with Papa about like making money.She wishes Papa would go and work for Yitzi's father because their business is booming and
So Zippy says of her one part of her still back in Zarka still in the shuttle with her old ways and yet another part of her is very American she wants the money she wants the promise of this new world I think maybe in some ways she is less greenhorn than Papa believe it or not it makes her very difficult because she wants it both ways yeah I think that's very
I feel like that's very believable for a mother in that situation too.
I think that's still kind of the immigrant story today.Like a lot of Asian American families seem to go through that.
Hmm.But she's American in wanting money, but she's not American in believing that women should be able to vote.Right.Which is a topic of much consternation between her and Tova.
It's also weird reading the perspective of a little girl who's effectively a Republican.She's like, I hope Teddy Roosevelt wins.Gross.
Well, she says that, like... Right, she likes him for the pelicans.Let's slip ahead, because there's a section where they're talking again about the upcoming election that I think is very interesting.Because Papa is very pro-Roosevelt.
Strictly because his brother-in-law made Roosevelt's suits.Exactly.Let's see.But on the other hand, I did not used to be a huge fan of Pete Buttigieg until he and I attended a funeral together.What?Yep.You went to when?
don't remember the exact year okay but my cousin laurel her husband was killed they were they'd only been married for four years it was really tragic and he had been a worker for the city of south bend and so the city of south bend indiana at that point in time was the mayor was pete budaj right mayor pete and so he came to aaron's funeral and it was
Really comforting because a lot of people did not Appropriately go to that funeral, huh?
And it was very touching for the family to interact with mayor Pete in that way And so like I after that I was more mayor Pete because I was not on his side many years ago when I had choices so
Now that Pete is a little bit more advanced in his career, and we get to see him on Fox News being so well-spoken and just laying, I think he is the best interpreter of democratic ideals and democratic plans.He makes it all sound so good.
He's such a good arguer.So I'm very pro-Pete now, but it initially started when we attended that funeral together. interesting yeah i'm surprised i've ever told you that yeah Well, there you go.Once upon a time, I met Pete Buttigieg.I had no idea.
He lives in Traverse City, so I feel like Megan's going to be his friend eventually.Yeah.Like, she'll go to yoga and be like.
You forget that sometimes politicians walk among us.
I know.And theoretically, we shouldn't forget that, because that's really the foundation of what we're doing here.They are regular people.Well, they're supposed to be.It doesn't always work out that way.
Ideally, they should be regular people.
I want him to be president. Wow.Specifically because I want Chaz to have like a White House Christmas.Chaz?Are you kidding me?It'd be amazing.Chaz and the twins for a White House Christmas special?I do love that.
It would fill my heart with Christmas joy and I am a notorious humbug.Oh.I hate Christmas a little. OK.I'm surprised you don't, what, do you know me at all?Are we friends?How long have we been doing podcasts together?Well, I mean, OK.
This is getting off the, this is getting off.I'm a Grinch.Deal with it.OK.All right, where did we leave off?What page you got?We were talking about the election.I was going to just say something about,
uh so tova is arguing with papa and really the whole family um she says the only reason papa would vote for teddy roosevelt is because uncle moish made his rough rider suit for the spanish-american war is there is this a democracy where a man if he is rich enough can have his uniform custom custom tailored at brooks brothers now that is an interesting point that i think probably flew right over my head as a kid because it's saying
like he is putting on airs of like being one of the guys yeah but brooks brothers his brooks brothers suit is like you know, evidence that he is just a rich guy.
And then Papa has this great line, I vote for the man, not the suit, and he's like really proud of that.
But then he continues, but let me tell you, daughter, your Uncle Moish made those canvas leggings look like cavalry twill and his skill and fashion, like he's just saying like, Uncle Moish did a really good job, so lay off.Right.
And isn't that so parents?It is.I think Tova's got the right of it.Yeah.Yeah, so we have, like, holidays pass with Miriam, like, and it's just, like, not the same because Miriam's not there.And Zippy is, like, really sad about that.
She's talking to Uncle Shmuley about it and she tells him that she's going uptown to see Miriam and how I was afraid to speak to her.He says, don't be afraid, Zipporah.Never be afraid of love.
um and then he he like goes on she's telling him about how mama said so they become confidants in one yeah i love uncle shimoli's story i love i wrote down the arcs that he goes through so he comes page 90 she starts enjoying him certainly
better than Reb Shimka, Simka.And then she starts, he's this very laughing, easy figure.And then finally by page 128, oh sorry, also the English lessons that she pays for.But by page 128, he's her confidant.
And she tells him what he needs to hear in order to produce, possibly help his future bride get this divorce.She tells him about the bentel brief.
Well she tells him that yeah she saw Mr. Wolf uptown and I think that's going to be very helpful because it's going to be evidence that he abandoned the family and he's still around but he like and that might help get the her get the divorce.
I also love that this book taught kids the word bigamist.Did you ever know the word bigamist? before this started?
That's a good question.But yeah, if you didn't know, bigamist means having more than one spouse.And it is illegal in this country.Yeah.But oh, another sweet Uncle Shmuley moment is that they start talking about Russia.
And he tells them about how things are going now.Because he did come over much later than that.
few months later than so he was a member of an organization called the bund they met in secret in forests and farmer's sheds and tiny villages um and they distribute leaflets you know talking about human rights and they were enemies of the czar yes effectively yeah um uncle shmuley says that for jewish people in settlements it's like
a hangman's rope tightening around their necks and they and when they want to kill them fast they make a pogrom um this yeah this was very striking about um yeah well i thought it was interesting if we look at the family as a whole mama is rather conservative and in her youth zippy's a little conservative and then we have
kind of radical Uncle Shmuley and Tova.And then Papa has some radical ideals as well, in that he will not oppress others to benefit himself.Yeah.Well, and I want to- Which is pretty ideal, is it?Yeah.
So if we were to put the members of this family on this gradient that Zippy's constantly bringing up, who's more Greenhorn versus more Yankee, where do you think the family lies?
I think they are like in that transitional phase.But I do want to like, I think
mama being more conservative does not mean she's a czarist i think what she is is a survivalistic it's like i think she wants to maintain their traditions as a small jewish i know it's right there everyone go watch fiddler on the roof right now
But it has nothing to do with the geopolitics whereas like Uncle Shmuley is like yeah like you could not have stayed in this in the in your little village and kept your traditions because that way of life is being stamped out on purpose.
um really makes you think um and yeah so zippy says uh do you think czar nicholas is really evil papa says he is just very stupid and uncle shmuley says something very interesting i think there is a point where stupidity can become evil and yes the czar reached that point many years ago he is now evil i think about that all night long you see what i mean uncle shmuley discusses things with me as an equal
And that's important on many levels, not only just like what Uncle Shmuley is saying, like I think that is a very important point about how evil happens in the world.
People like to think that it is like, you know, someone waking up to be like, I'm going to be evil with my life, like I'm going to use my one precious life to be evil.Sometimes it feels like people do that.
But there is some quote and it's It's like Murphy's Law, but I don't remember what it's called.OK.But I don't remember which law.But it says, never assume malevolence when simple ignorance will do.Yes.
And I think that's true a lot of the time, not only in the big evils of this world, but also the little evils we do to each other.Right.
Oftentimes, we think somebody is hurting us intentionally, and they have no idea because they're not thinking about us at all.
yeah well you can it's it's ignorance which leads to bigotry which leads to you know wanton just you know like you're just like i don't consider this group of people to be good or important
Well, if you're looking at that sliding scale, if it all starts with ignorance, that sliding scale goes, yeah, right into bigotry and dehumanization.Yeah.You know, bigotry is kind of the halfway point.Like it's not even the worst thing you can be.
and also just the fact that you know zippy is appreciating that uncle shimile is talking with her as an equal as like someone who's worth isn't he cool spending the time yeah to have and not just be like oh you'll understand when you're older right and it's not that her parents are bad or ignoring her she's not dealing with neglect
It's just that she has this one adult who's really focused on her and they have these opportunities to speak because there's actually not a whole lot of time where children have to talk to adults.
so i don't know it's cool yeah i really like this family it feels very realistic which is something that like i've struggled with with some of these books yes when they write characters who like those are not little girls that is not how little girls talk that's not how they are zippy is real there are some very real kid moments like there was an earlier entry where i'm not going to go back to it because we're beyond it but she was like so mad at something that she was like listing all of the things
that she's upset about and I was like, that's so funny.
Every single diary every girl's ever had, there's gotta be a list like that.Here are the things that are upsetting me right now.Today was garbage because.Yes, it's so good.Okay, so she gets a job at the theater as a prop girl. Which is very exciting.
She wants to use that as a stepping stone to get on stage, which I was like That's not always how that works.But you know, we'll see how this goes.
She's she's very diligent very In the way that she like takes in these scripts and memorizes and she's like so on the ball it feels
she's such a theater kid she's such a theater kid i think this really influenced me to be a theater kid too oh really yeah i mean i don't remember the timeline when i first read this versus like when i started doing high school musicals probably this i mean obviously this was before because i was reading high school books um when i was in high school but um yeah i really wanted to be in high school musicals when i was a kid and
Then I wasn't a couple.It was very exciting.Awesome.Anyway, but she starts spending time with Mammy, which Mammy, Mammy.I think it's Mammy.Mammy, because Mammy is a racial stereotype.We're not going to do that.OK.
Mammy, like Mammy Eisenhower, and who is engaged to.
Or Auntie Mam, if we're going to keep referencing Broadway.
oh do you know that one which one is it again mame it's just called mame okay no i don't know that okay well uh angela lansbury did the movie so we should watch it together classic i'm pretty sure it's probably up on broadway hd so here we go baby you're the you you have more theater kid cred than i do
uh yeah no that's probably fair i'm really obnoxious yeah um oh so anyway she's um helping mamie run errands for the wedding she's looking for a venue she has to do a report on millard fillmore which is right she's like oh he's so boring i wish i would have gotten abraham lincoln he's wasted on the person who got him
i that made me cackle yes she's like that girl's so boring she's not gonna do a good job oh i love that um let's skip ahead speaking of diamond shirtwaist i think is next yes so there's this very like we gets she gets very involved with maybe like working at the theater and and working with her on her wedding
and then because she says she doesn't have sisters or mother so she needs somebody to help her and of course as we all know when you're writing something that's like all about oh this is exciting or i hate that you know it's gonna hurt it's gonna hurt something bad's about to happen here we go so november 23rd um i write for the first time in many weeks in yiddish no language except my own could hold these feelings and yet i am numb uh she's
i mean it's dramatic but she is really feeling like a lot of feelings so i'm not gonna laugh at like i think the book shows depression yeah pretty well here starting on page 141 we visited again on 146 yeah so um she died in a terrible fire at the diamond shirtwaist factory uh where she works when i read it this morning i went jen's gonna be so excited
That sounds horrible.I know, but everybody knows you and your deep love.My obsession.Yeah, obsession's a better word.Love is not the word.
Love is not the word.I would use the word.
Jen has a special interest in the Triangle Shortways factory fire.That's one of my, like, I have a special interest.Oh, there's multiple?I thought it was just that one.
No, well, I would say my special interest is historical tragedies.
because Titanic.Would you please get that as a tattoo across the back of your neck or something?My special interest is historical tragedy.It's the best thing I've ever heard.
These books made me into such a little historical goth kid.I was just obsessed with, give me the saddest most depressing historical facts you could ever think of.
I've never been more proud of your self-awareness. I'm so thrilled for you.I'm into historical tragedy.This is awesome.I bet you're fun at parties.
I know.We've got a lot of Titanic information.
That's how we bonded.And I was also a Holocaust kid.I was like, give me every... You gotta find a new way to say that, dog.My favorite musical was Fiddler on the Roof.I was like... I was a Holocaust kid.
I know, it just sounded so bad.There are dozens of us.Dozens?Six million?No, oh god.Come on, all right.No holocaust jokes, that's terrible.That's bad.Listen, we all know I'm going to hell.I'm not getting in on a technicality.I've earned it.
Danny, you can cut all that.
No, it's fine.I know who I am.More importantly, we know who I am.I think anyone who grew up reading these books knows what I mean.
Oh, I look forward to when we get to the Holocaust books.Wow.Wow.Cancel.Both of us can just back and forth, wow.Wow.OK, so you guys all know what we freaking mean.
Yes, you know.OK, so it's this very tragic accident.But I was so excited for you.
uh it's the it's the diamond shirtwaist factory well and obviously that was real um it doesn't was it did you look it up i know it sounded like you did i didn't look it up oh well uh yeah so i don't know if it's real i did not it seems like it would be i'm sure i'm sure probably what is factory is a couple years after this it's like triangle 15 11 1911 yeah okay uh i thought it was after titanic it's before notably notably
So yeah, so they get out of school, and they're walking up Ludlow Street towards Hester Street, and it seemed unusually quiet and empty.
And they're like trying to figure out what's going on, and then they see lots of people standing together on the corner.And suddenly, Blue and I both notice that there are hardly any carts or wagons.Usually there's a tangle of carts.What's happening?
Blue asks someone.A terrible fire near Washington Square, they said.The Diamond Shirtwaist Factory. and Zippy immediately knows that that's the one where Mamie works.It's not importantly where Tova works.Or any of the other characters.
I was really worried at the beginning of this book that Tova was gonna die.
Say goodbye.They see huge black clouds of smoke and ashes.And then horribly, it's still happening.
This gave me, so this book, Obviously, since we know that Dawn had it in 1999, according to my thing.When I read it, yeah, I hope she's well.When I read it, it made me instantly think of 9-11.
Because they try to catch these girls jumping out of the windows, the doors are locked. They try to catch these girls with nets.And that is super not going to work unless you are a story up.
Yeah, very little you can do when they're like 10 stories up.And I mean, I, of course.
Like if you had a net on like the eighth floor and the 10th floor was burning, yes, you could support that.But if you are on the ground floor and you've got somebody falling from even the fourth floor,
say the it was only four stories tall yeah that's still enough to kill somebody and you're not gonna be able to stop them with a net yeah like i i know specifically the triangle shirtwaist factory fire was the eighth and ninth floor and i think there was a tenth floor but that was like i don't know but yeah like that's it's just too high but like you can't not try
What are you going to do when you're stuck on the ground?
Well, how often do we look at September 11th as a labor issue?
You know, those people had to jump.
Although, to be fair, I suppose the disparity is like, why were they working in such a tall building?But it's not like the employers at that time were not locking their employees in.
Right.And nobody had anticipated Yeah.Because why would anybody drive a plane into a building?That is not a thing that you should have to expect.Right.
On the other hand, in the United States of America, teachers, there's currently a story, a court case between the Supreme Court, where school shootings might be determined to be a job hazard for teachers.They already are.
Right, but right now teachers- I know, legally, yeah.So yeah, just there's a lot of messed up stuff.And you know, we don't have to look at- September 11th is a one-off and not really a labor issue.
Yeah, so like the- but the the shirtwaist fires.It's funny that they're both shirtwaist.Like,
That's what I thought it was for sure gonna be.
Right?Because like how many shirtwaist factory fires were there?Why are we setting all the shirts on fire?
I think there were a few.And it's not because it's shirts.I think it's just like the garments, they're making them out of cotton.Yeah.
There's all these scraps.Cotton is super fibery.
It's like so much of scraps like even in the air.The threads.Yeah.And also, notably, they're not letting people out to take smoke breaks. Right, everybody was smoking.
So people are smoking around all these cotton fibers and that's how the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory started was, well probably, we don't know for sure, but like probably someone smoking and then like threw their cigarette that was not completely, you know, stuffed out into a bucket of scraps.
um so yeah they but they come across this scene that is still ongoing and they see flames coming out of the windows imagine watching people leap to their death i mean i guess we don't have to imagine we were there but like via cnn oh exactly there's one of the most famous photos that came from um 9-11 which is called the leaper and it was
on the front page of a magazine many yeah that's horrible yeah you could make out the person's like you knew who they were gives me chills every time i see it yeah yeah that is a very very visceral image that's why i thought for sure katherine lasky would have been informed by september 11th but at the point of publication this book was published before
Anyway, okay, so they're trying desperately to do anything that they can.They have nets, but obviously that's not gonna help.And they, Zippy and Blue wait there for hours.
And they finally just have to, like, they're waiting to see if Mamie comes to the window or something, but they never see her.And they go home, and Tova comes back close to midnight, and she says that 100 workers died.
and um they never have really confirmation that Mamie is one of them but they she's not she's not found so like she yeah she's yeah and then for the next several entries um Zippy is depressed and sad and she's going through grief like she sees Boris and he is like a shadow of a man um Boris and Mamie were going to get married yeah
And she also gets like cast in a play and she's like, this is a dream come true, but I am excited, but I'm not feeling the way I would have a year ago.Also, side note, the Russian Revolution starts.
Well, not the Bolshevik though.
uh okay yeah sorry just one of the minor yeah okay the winter palace is whatever i don't know yeah he was mowing down people in front of the winter palace yeah um so god i would love to see the winter palace in real life that building
so but she does get cast in a play which is yeah we're very excited and it's also a play starring jacob adler who she admires so greatly and who has complimented her yeah who also was a real actor he was um and she's like one of the she's one of the children and who dies all the children die in the play but she's very excited specifically that she's the one that gets eaten by a lion yeah uh so she gets to die on stage dramatically
Isn't it so great?And she says, I practice my horror looks at night in the mirror.Because the way they stage it is that they have a large lion mask.It's like a two-man lion suit.
And they make the lion face jaws the perfect size to go around her head.And she's facing the odds.She's like, oh, oh.
Amazing. She's a little Rachel Berry coded, and I love that.But I really like Rachel Berry, because I was Rachel Berry.Of course I was.Everything's about me.
Mama has the baby.It's a boy.They name him Yossel.He is born on page 145.And on 146,
he dies yep i like that we just put all of the suffering into one little section oh so much happens in this second half this is like a real act two of a broadway's oh for sure so great um yeah he just like develops a fever he was premature so he had underdeveloped lungs and he just dies and it's so sad he gets little baby infant pneumonia and drowns in his food
Yeah, and yeah, she's talking about how like everyone at home is like very sad and quiet and No one's doing anything like mama's not sewing and Uncle Shmoley's saying that it's a sad place where they live.Let's skip to the play.
So it's opening night.This is really truly kind of the end of our book here.Yes, it is.And she's so nervous that she's going to forget her lines.And then
um it comes to opening night March 9th she's she's like I must write in Yiddish again for my heart is so full not with pain but finally joy and I was like oh thank god um so she um didn't forget any of her lines and at the end of the first act when I was more relaxed and could look out from the wings into the audience
who should I see sitting in the fifth row to the right but Miriam and Sean they came to see her and now at this point in time we have not spoken to Miriam yet she like absconded on page 112 we creeped on her but we haven't spoken yes um so yeah Zippy sees them and begins to immediately cry because she's so happy and one of her co-stars she can't explain is like what's you crying about
you haven't even been eaten yet by the lion and she and um boris sees what's going on and and he comforts her and he had organized and he organized it and and he says that they should miss this night of yours never they should see the first glow of what might be a star in the heavens of yiddish theater and she and she's like i'm no star and he says it all begins with a twinkle isn't that the cute
He deserves to be married.I hope he is.Boris and Uncle Shmuley are her additional dads.Yeah.Well, and on top of that, her other dad, her legitimate dad.Really good dad.She's got three amazing dads.Right.We should all be so blessed.Yeah.
yeah um and or boris is really my maybe the big brother she never got to have oh yeah um and so yeah the play goes well and so they meet her backstage um and um they're like hugging and and she's uh her uncle shmuley says mary i'm sean you must come back to the orchard street with us we must stop all this nonsense life is too short
um and so they run back to the the apartment um mama miriam shouts as she bursts through the door with sean right behind her mama i am alive you cannot make me dead mama i am alive and i love you and mama touches her hand to her head to adjust her wig and she remembers she is only wearing a scarf there it is
and her hand just stays in midair and she makes the shape of Miriam's name on her lips and she whispers Mirmala for the that is her baby name for Miriam as mine is Zipola and Tova's is Tovala and she says it again and suddenly as if mama has flown across the room and she wraps her arms around Miriam and she hugs her so tight
And then she breaks away and she looks at Sean and she says, Atantafruma, love and hunger do not live together.My Miriam looks happy, healthy and beautiful.She takes Sean hand and presses it to her lips. and everyone cried.
She literally just said she looks reasonably fat therefore she's okay.I love that.I know.It's really the best way to judge.This was the fatter the better.
This is a hugely cathartic moment.
never get catharsis in these books.I know.Thank you Katherine Lasky.Oh I and then I just like I didn't think I was gonna basically read this entire entry but if I will.It's whatever for a penny and for a pound.
Yeah everyone cries and cries and then Tova comes in and for the first time in her entire existence Tova is absolutely speechless.
uh it is actually taught to fruma who has the last word through my mother's mouth mama says you get as old as a cow but you still go on learning and so i am calmer now and i can write once more in english i only have one page left in this diary that mama brought for me from back in zarika
As I write, it feels as I am at the end of what has been a very long night, or maybe is the beginning of a new day.I look back in this diary I have kept now for over a year, 18 months to be exact.I think this is a very strange sort of story.
It begins with an ending, the ending of our life in Russia, and it ends with a beginning.And throughout the entire diary, there are beginnings and endings that seem to braid together like a plate of very long hair.Plate.Plate.
I never know how that's supposed to be pronounced.
uh sometimes just swap it out for braid that's what i always do um sometimes one cannot tell the beginning from the ending and this is not necessarily bad for one if one really knew there knew one might not have the courage to go on i want to go on i think i shall buy a new diary tomorrow and begin to fill it up with my story i'm sure there will be many more beginnings and endings and i hope that i shall never be quite sure which is which
It is so much better for these books to have an ending instead of just stopping.I recognize this has been an issue of mine since the beginning.I do like a three-part system.Yeah, this is a very satisfying story structure.It is, it is.
And I think form does matter even though it's not authentic to real life.
yeah right it does still feel true though like it feels like i agree you know reasonable and life goes on and with the epilogue we learn uh they have a very good successful life huge she lives a big life
Yes, so Zippy only goes to two years of high school and that's the end of her formal education, but she's fine because she's getting steady work on the stage.
Papa was able to stop working entirely in the needle trade and he joins the New York Philharmonic. Can you imagine?As first violinist.They move uptown to live closer to Carnegie Hall.
And I think that would put them kind of closer to Miriam's neighborhood.Yeah.Possibly even more uptown than her.Yeah.
I'm not sure exactly where Carnegie Hall is, but yeah.It's quiet uptown.You had to come out.
That's very uptown. Mama continues doing custom dressmaking, but she never gives up her Jewish wig, so I guess she was just not wearing it that day.
Tova becomes part of the International Ladies' Garment Workers' Union, and she becomes a secretary of this organization.
And then Zippy... I think Tova's lesbian coded.I think so too, actually.Tova, 1000%.Also some of the girls from the
uh book about the mills the lowell oh yeah that was i think the most queer conan write it gay i want it to be written gay again yeah like write it but now it's gay this time more gay yeah
um so it's the pink pony club edit pink pony club um yeah she but she's also a socialist she writes um columns for the jewish daily forward about socialist causes um miriam and sean have four children and moved to brooklyn where he becomes fire chief i love that for them
Zippy becomes like one of the famous in the New York Yiddish theaters scene.And she finally, after what her mother calls the world's longest courtship, marries Yitzi when she is 30 in 1920.I love that.Yitzi had become a millionaire.
Of course she did.Of course.Good boys have got hustle for days.Yes.
um they have three children all boys and they want name one yasel after the baby that died um and he goes also goes into the theater um and she also goes uh so then the world war ii happens and they get very involved in um charitable causes of getting jewish children out of germany isn't that awesome oh yeah um and i know she's not a real person no i know i know i'm talking about like oh yeah this is what we're like
good on Katherine Lasky for making this for her nice yeah um and then uh fictionally of course in 1940 she she is in a hollywood movie uh that a treacherous woman not on imdb so i don't think it's real um and uh uh fictionally gets nominated for an oscar uh which i love and uh oh also i i laughed when um
While into her 80s, she attends the stage debut of her great-granddaughter Fruma in the role of Mary Magdalene in Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical Jesus Christ Superstar.I loved it.
What a choice.First of all, in that show, Mary Magdalene has one of the best songs.Oh my gosh.And I know you're not an ALW fan.No, I'm not. And like, you're not wrong.
I've listened to this record so many times though.It's so good.And I say record because that's what my parents have.Sick.Yeah, every Easter they listen to it on the record.
You should get them the, like, find out if they can get a vinyl of the Prince of Egypt soundtrack because it is, if you're gonna listen to something on Easter.
gotta tell you oh yeah yeah but um yeah um your parents is distinctly more protestant so that's yeah for them that's yeah um anyway but yeah that she's and they have her being interviewed by barbara walters baba wala Oh hey, this is Jen.
Just me, just me this time.We had some technical difficulties recording this episode.Turns out I need to format my cards instead of just deleting files. So we ran out of disk space when we were ending that last episode, but we were basically done.
So I decided to be lazy and just say, hey, you know what, I'll just record my own little outro just between us gals, just between us without Kate here.Yeah, so we were basically done with our discussion.
I know it's shut off abruptly, but that is just to say that we both really loved this book.We loved Zippy, we loved all of her friends and family.It was it was a really good one.
I think one of the more memorable books that we've read which has seen a lot because I've really liked all of these books so far.
but uh we are not but no but no but um so we are finished with this recap um and next up we have a delightful conversation with two folks from the tenement museum in new york city that was a real get for us because hey the tenement museum what could be more relevant
to a story about a Jewish immigrant family living in a tenement on the Lower East Side than talking to folks whose office is literally three blocks away from where Zippy and her family fictionally lived.
So tune in for that episode in a fortnight, and I guess it's just up to me now to sign off.So I hope you enjoyed our discussion as much as we enjoyed having it, and we will see you again in two weeks. Goodbye!
Hey, thanks for listening.We'd like to thank Erica Page for creating our amazing intro and outro music, Callie Charing for being the best research librarian we know, and the world's best editor Danny Heck.
Feel free to reach out to them with contact info in the description.
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