Dip it in wine, it's better.
Yeah, it is better in wine.Yeah.
Usually white wine, which is interesting.I feel like our church usually does a nice chardonnay.
Chardonnay.A buttery chardonnay.
I love chardonnay.Same.I could go for a bottle or six of those right now.Oh, okay.
Take a good nap. Put a little ice cube in your glass.
Not Chardonnay.No, you don't want, mm-mm.But a Pinot Grigio, absolutely.Oh, OK, yeah.Pinot Grigio can be cut with a little bit of ice water.Right, but not a Chardonnay.
Come on.Come on.You're right.Chardonnay, I feel like I prefer room temperature.Well, it tastes better than Pinot Grigio when it's warmer.Yep.Yep. So this is a really weird conversation and not a single little bit of it has been.
This is a podcast where we talk about children's books.Welcome to the Ribbon Book Club.
Is that our worst opening?In like eight years of podcasting, is that our worst opening?I was interested in the conversation, so surely someone else must be.A lot of people will just listen to us talk.
for good or worse.This is a podcast where we talk about Dear America books.My name is Jen and Kate over there is just sitting back with their eyes closed, dreaming about Chardonnay.
Except for we know that one glass of Chardonnay would take me out at the knees.So I'm not gonna have any Chardonnay.I saw you last week, you had a thimble of raspberry cordial.And I was biting people at the table.Yeah.You know, like an adult.
All right, should we talk about this book?
Where did we last leave off?We are discussing the second half of West to a Land of Plenty, the diary of Teresa Angelino Viscardi.And we are on the road again.
So I gotta say, I love the characters who are taking us through this diary.I think of all the books we've read so far, they have the most realistic voices on the page.I love Teresa.I like her feistiness.I like how angry she gets.
I hope she keeps that.I mean, I know she's not a real person, but like, I appreciate when women are angry because they're usually right.
Ooh.She has a lot of gumption.So, so far we have seen, you know, in the first half they were on the train for forever.For forever.And they made it to the Dakota Territory and then they formed a wagon train.
So we have a little bit of a callback to Hattie's story on the Oregon Trail. But they are traveling now from Dakota to Idaho is the goal.
And so we have the wagon train, we have our cast of friends, we have Teresa as our main protagonist, but we have our secondary protagonist, Netta, who is her little sister and who has a lot of little sister energy.She is a bit of a perfectionist.
She is correcting Teresa on her spelling.But she's also... has like her own joie de vivre, if you will.She's made friends on the train and she... She does walking visits, which I think is very charming.I think it is super charming.
It has... The way that the author presents two very distinct personalities is quite lovely, I think.And I think it's interesting in that neither of them kind of fall into what I would call the Aria Sansa trope.
where you have like the one who's like I'm girly and the other one's like I'm I don't like dresses like it's really not the focus for either of these two girls like they're just they're who they are like they don't spend time they have different personalities but they're not strictly like one's masculine one's feminine right
Me and my sister kind of did that.Maggie was kind of a girly girl.So I was like, nope, no dresses not ever.And now I wear dresses all the time, but I have to be separated from my sister to be able to have that.
Otherwise we were just fighting for identity.And I think that's not so much a thing with these two sisters.
You do definitely find them kind of defining themselves in opposition to each other, but not in terms of like,
fashion or something like it's it's more in terms of like netta is very uh precise and correcting and um and i appreciate it adds to the authenticity of this fictitious diary um so yeah we've got these characters we are working our way across and we've reached the missouri river which she said looks more like a big brown lake yeah than a river and having seen the missouri river i agree
Yeah.Yeah, it's a very wide river.
Oh, we kind of come across some instances of prejudice or bias as we're crossing the Missouri River.
Yeah, yeah.So this is whenever we're dealing with a piece of historical fiction that involves race relations, which is to say, pretty much every book.Yeah, that we've read.
Well, maybe not so much Winter of the Red Stone. That was white people on white people.
Well, there are enslaved people.Yes, that's true.That serve the Washingtons.
I will never forgive the Washington myth.I'll never not be mad about that.If I have a way to talk about how much I dislike George Washington now, I'm going to bring it up.John Adams was with me.
John Adams knew.John Adams knew.John Adams was a real one. And I think that's proof that like when people say like, oh, well, it was a different time.
Was it?Or are you just making excuses?John Adams didn't make excuses.He wasn't a great president.Yeah, but he was a pretty good man.
Arguably very good man like to write dirty letters to his wife.
We love that.Yeah. So anyway, uh... Glad I just told all the children that.
You can't... I am just who I am.You are who you are and you will not... I am who I am.You will not be tamed.Did you hear that the captain of the Titanic died?
The actor?That was... sorry.Wait!
I don't know, he's also Theoden.
I'm just finding this out now.
This is devastating.Is it?What?Yes!He was a great Captain Smith.He went... Is he?He was also a great King of Rohan.
Listen, at the end, you know... Oh yeah, alright, and George Washington was also fine.Okay, okay.
Do not put... King Theoden did not own people, okay?
Isn't he the one who had the weird little guy whispering in his ear?Yeah, is that his fault?
Yes, he was the king, Jeffrey.He was under a spell, literally.I find that weak.Okay, that's very victim blaming of you.
Also, not real. Also, he kicked him out when he- Eventually?
Come on, that guy was objectively evil the whole time.
When he was magically set free by the wizard Gandalf of the curse that he was under, yes, he immediately God, did I just black out?
What were we talking about?
You brought this up.I did.I should have, I forgot that he was related to Lord of the Rings.I should have shut up.I was looking at the Titanic poster behind your head.
I was wondering how that came up because it has nothing to do.We are so, so off topic today.
Listen, I did a 20 mile bike ride and I'm tired.
I really wanted to cancel on you.You're welcome.
Let's do this.Oh my gosh. Okay, so we are crossing the Missouri River.Teresa has herself a little boyfriend named J.W.J.W.
Who is cute.Little cow bulk.What?I can't.Listen, can you let me lay back down?No.I'm so tired.Okay.
So where do we pick up?I don't know.We are about to get some letters from friends.
Yeah, this is a good part.We're on page 91 is when we get the letters from home.
Yes, we get a bag of letters from Fort Silly and there are two letters for Teresa.One is from Mrs. Curran and the other is from Francesca.Do you think sending mail back then was just kind of like sending a hope?I do, yeah.
I think it's like just a hope and a wish and a prayer.
You're just like, well, I'm going to drop this piece of paper worth a penny into the mail.Best of luck to it.And then I wonder how much mail just never got where it needed to go.
Oh, so much.I mean, there's still mail that doesn't get to where it needs to go.And there's an entire lost mail department.That's a fascinating story.And there are podcasts about it.
So yes, Mrs. Curran has written, Curran, I don't know how to say her name.Yeah, I don't know how to say her name either.So she writes and she's, you know, what a wonderful surprise to find your letter.
And she, you know, says, Oh, I wrote to you and sent it, you know, to Pittsburgh, but I guess that it must have missed you.You know, the
Yeah, so does it do you think it because we have returned mail now like I sent my cousin's doctoral dissertation is tomorrow her defense Wonderful.
So I sent her a card yesterday that says her name doctor her name and it was like a congratulatory card I hope it's the first piece of mail.She gets with her like professional name.That's cute.Yeah, so
I was worried that if it didn't make it to Manhattan that it would get returned to me, so I put a return address on it.And I wonder if they had that practice in the 1880s.
I have many questions about the mail.I think about the mail a lot.
How did mail used to work?Because, yeah, they're kind of... They kind of mentioned it in the first half of this book that was like, yeah, send it to me, Teresa, care of the West, essentially.
Well, I think there were different forts.And if you knew your path, like, oh, we're going to go to Fort Sully, we're going to go to Fort Fenton, whatever.I'm just making up names.Your bag says Fenton.
Then you would know, like, OK, I'll send mail here, and I'll send mail there, and hopefully it reaches you, and we can communicate at this juncture.
yeah um but you know like i that just boggle i think about the pony express a lot it just boggles my mind i want to take that out of context i think about the pony express a lot i do it's kind of my roman empire yeah i think i would have enjoyed being a pony express rider just i don't think you would tooling around from place to place with my horse i don't know i don't i really like driving you're tired now and that's true
I think I would have enjoyed it in a different life, but now I'm old.Yeah.I'm very old.I'm pushing 40, Jeff.All right.
I just thought today, I just had this like realization that I'm 33. Which I know is younger than you, but like, I forgot.
And all your organs work, so shut up.
I had a moment of forgetting how old I was and thinking, I was like, I'm like 32, right?Like, oh, no.No.OK.I'm turning 34 this year.
My second or third year at the museum, I had a group of kids who asked me how old I was.And I was 21 at the time.
And with my whole chest, I went to go say I was 17.
That's a child.I know.Babies.I can't imagine being 17 anywhere.Okay.So yes, we have a letter from Mrs. Karan, and she is talking about what has happened since Teresa has left.They had a lot of rain, blah, blah, blah.
uh but we they had a mayday pageant um complete with singing of the flower song um and we hear that theresa must have had a solo back in the day because she says that mary taylor filled in for you and did an admirable job though she does not have your dramatic flair um so i guess it maybe was a play sure yeah part of the pageant
which I could see Teresa Bean yeah she'd be excellent a dramatic um actress um and then after Annie Nolan recited a special poem she had written about you called Gone is the Friend it was well received and many a tear was shed you uh and yeah I'm enclosing a copy of it uh
But it goes on to say that they've been following the, you know, your progress.Every time one of your letters arrives, we note the location and place a colored pin in the map and mark your route.
It is cute.That sounds like a fun class project.Yeah.
Good way to cope with somebody moving away, which probably didn't happen as frequently as it happens now.
yeah well i mean i remember kids moving away but it wasn't ever like they're going on the oregon trail like you would just never hear from them again right right uh so yeah um and yeah she's like very curious about all of her adventures out west and wants to hear about them but uh yeah and then later we get the the poem gone is the friend
And it is, I mean, I was like, oh, I wish I had a poem written about me.You have a sandwich named about you.It's gone now.I know, I'm devastated.I'm never giving Calvin another penny. I'm mad.Oh my God.I know, it was devastating to learn that.
So yeah, it's a very kind of saccharine poem, but it's, gone is the friend we held so dear, gone to broad valleys, whose streams so clear, blah, blah, blah, you know, and it's, and it ends, may her journey be swift, may you ever be well, so farewell, dear friend, farewell, farewell.
And then it turns out we fully hate this girl.
Oh my gosh!That was such a hilarious 180 because the next letter is from Francesca who, you know, she's a friend.She knows.
And so she immediately is like, I want to hear more about your JW Anderson.How tall is he?What color are his eyes?His hair?Is he handsome?Is he nice?Does he ride a horse well?
And Annie overheard Nicola, this is the very same Annie who wrote the poem, overheard Nicola and I talking about you and JW one day and she said you were probably making him up but we said you would never do that and that you always told the truth unlike some girls we know.
When I said this I was looking right at her so she knew exactly who I meant.
and then Annie wrote a poem about you that she read at the pageant and Nicola and I thought that we would be sick it was so awful not in what it said about you but because Annie was saying it I couldn't listen to her so I can't write it down for you but I do remember that at the end she made a dramatic wave with her hand and said so farewell dear friend
Farewell, farewell.And Anthony made a rude noise as punctuation.Everyone laughed, even Mrs. Curran, though she tried not to show it.And Anthony was so proud of his performance, I thought he was going to take a bow with Annie."
Yeah, I love this part of the book.It's so real.It is.This is so real.I lived this stuff.
There's nothing that bonds friends together more than hatings.
You and I hate a lot of the same people.My God, we love to talk about it.
We truly do.It's terrible.And we will never discuss this on the pod.Right.No, no, no.Because that it's not for polite company.That is for secret friend time.Right.
Just for when we're being terrible with everybody that we know.
Yeah.Yeah.So yeah, that felt very, very relatable.She has other things to say, but she she ends it Mother is getting impatient, so all I have time to say is farewell, dear Fred, farewell.If you don't say your prayers, you'll fall down in a well.
Seriously, she's a real one.
She is real.I can see why she would be sad to leave.
um this friend because i would also be devastated um and so um theresa obviously writes back to francesca um and uh but you know it's it's whatever but she she does say ask for jw you can tell annie that he holds hands and kisses very well he also rides a horse very well be sure to let nicola know that i love that so good so very realistic oh and then sorry
it ends p.s nothing is worse than to be praised in verse by a person who is never nice but a letter from you who has always been true is like having spring flowers bloom twice oh that's cute oh i wish that i had the energy to write poetry that is silly to my friends oh i wish you had that too go get some postcards i want a nice little mail i know myself
That's all right.So while we're here, we've covered these letters.Let's talk about some of the things that are happening with the wagon train while we're reading these letters.
Yeah.She makes a new friend.
First of all, Mary Margaret Degler.And we don't get the back story of where she's from, but she's friends of Katherine Koswitzki, so probably Polish.I don't know.Agreed.I don't recognize Degler.
Me either. But I would imagine yes, since the ethnic groups tended to stick together.For example, everybody who travels from Water Street or whatever, they all seem to be Italian.Southern Italian, which is notable.
If you're Italian, that does make a big difference.
Which is, is the notable part of this story is that all these different ethnic groups are traveling together to create a new town together.
Whereas out, you know, in the East Coast, they had their little Italy, little Poland, we even in Grand Rapids have the Polish part of town.Right?
Yeah, like, yeah, I live Polish adjacent.
um yeah um that that's very true people tend to like create in groups with their neighborhoods yeah yeah whereas this new type of neighborhood is not seeking to do that at all it's not it's actually kind of going against that that uh instinct absolutely
Um and it's it's nice to have this come after these very touching letters between friends because she does say specifically like I didn't think that I would make another friend like Francesca again but it appears that she does have that very close bond very immediately with Mary Margaret.
We see them being very chatty together um and she says when I'm not talking to Mary Margaret I'm talking to JW and so she's she just seems to be having kind of a lovely time That'll take a turn.Yes, it will take a turn.
We're crossing the Missouri River.It's quite wide.And the area is still controlled by a Native American group, largely.
Fortunately, Mr. Below, or Bulla, I don't know how to say his name.Let's go with Below.Yeah, he is married.Effectively, they are his in-laws. Native American crew, tribe, the group that is here to help cross the Missouri.
And so they do some discussion about that.And they do use a word that makes me really uncomfortable.Yeah, it's on page 88.It's the word squaw. And squaw, like gypsy, these are words that are slurs.They are slurs.
And, you know, it's like saying the N-word to the group that is being discussed.Squaw, a lot of people think that, you know, if it's a male Native American, it's a brave and a female squaw.And that's not the case.Squaw is a body part.
Oh, I didn't know that.Yeah.Squat is a body part.
Is it a body part?I think it is.
It is a word that French men who were during the French fur trade they would learn to say that word.Uh-huh To indicate what they really wanted.It's a body.Yeah, most women have yeah, not all women You don't you're not necessarily born with it.
But yeah, okay Yeah, huh?Okay.
Yeah.Oh, so it's it is very much like GASH Yeah.Yep It makes my stomach turn.
I was I was given that information during a series of interviews I did at the museum Uh-huh when we were trying to update some of our Native American history So we were I have that word in there.It did not okay.No But we had I had learned
You know, like we were talking about male and female roles because that's something that we needed to discuss for first grade Michigan history.And so we were like, okay, well, if we're talking about the Native American exhibit, what do you mean?
Why do male and female roles need to be discussed with first graders?
Oh, because they talk about family life.
So remember, first grade.I know.They're just trying to give context to things outside of school based on the context that the kids will have in their lives.
Yeah.It sounds like that's going to be done away with in some way or another.Probably.
It's it sounds very like well the mommy of the they make the food and the daddy does yeah Well, but remember that's the context that kids have going into the world, but is that always what they know?
Yeah, but it's hard to change society.
I appreciate that it probably is going to change.I'm certainly not making a stance that it shouldn't change.
Regardless though, we were trying to relate the six main floor exhibits to what the kids need to pass the MEEP, which is the Michigan Education Aptitude Test. And although I think it's called MCAT now, I don't care.
But anyway, so we were trying to do that.And I was like, okay, well, if we're relating, you know, like, in those days, it might have been gender roles.So like The Brave does this.
And the leader from the Little Ottawa Band of, or the Little River Band of Ottawa Indians, I think was his official title, was like, hey, that's, that's a body part.And so that's how I got that information about Yeah, the fur trade.
Yeah, and how they would learn the word squaw to effectively mean a comfort woman right or if they were in the Middle Atlantic trade.Mm-hmm.They would maybe say a belly warmer.They use that a lot in roots.Okay.Yeah, so
anyway don't use that word it's all of this to say don't use that it's horrible how much normal like we've had completely normalized words presented to us you know that are effectively we learn in hindsight are
have horrible origins and it's like you don't you don't have that context and so you certainly don't mean that when you say it right and it's not your fault for learning that that's the word for this absolutely but then you know once you do learn it that's your responsibility to try not to do it to say maybe like use your podcast to be like don't say that flipping word yeah yeah so
Reducing somebody to a body part that you can use for your comfort.Yeah is pretty disgusting.Yeah Right.Yeah, like I mean Dan's great.
But if I just referred to him as You know, well the term jars is Objectification.Yep.
We're not turn somebody into an object.
Yes, exactly I'm all angry well at least you're awake now that's true um anyway so we do i i find it interesting when they do so we we are in native american territory they call them indians throughout the book which again is just another kind of
that you find that line when you're writing historical fiction of wanting to be, apply your modern kind of sensitivities to how people at that time would have talked.And it's hard.
Well, and don't forget a lot of Native Americans or Indians today use that term as their own.
yeah and and that's certainly not like the other word that we were just discussing so like i'm not saying like oh this they shouldn't use this word but it is just kind of jarring to look at it yeah yeah um i just saw to kill a mockingbird and it uses the n word quite a lot and like i'm good on that for a while i don't need to hear that word again for a long time yeah
But I appreciate the nuance that you have to, it's complicated when you're writing from a historical point of view to try to be accurate but also not so offensive.
right um so doesn't that say good things about society like even though i'm frustrated with the way the world turns i do think martin luther king jr was right when he said the arc of history is long but it bends towards justice i think so too things are getting better that is when i get most optimistic even though things can still be quite bad oh god they're so bad
But I think what I found as kind of an interesting way that the author kind of fights against the same prejudice that he's also having to put in here is by like having Teresa describe the Native Americans that she sees that, you know,
Which is a common theme that comes up in other real historical accounts of Europeans meeting Native Americans, which is that they're described as very handsome with light brown skin, thick dark hair, and well-muscled.
and the arms and chest, and it's like, yeah.
I mean, that was also very prevalent in very early settling of Massachusetts and Virginia, and it was kind of telling how much they even went into like, and they smell nice, and they are just so clean, and then you read the opposite, where the Native Americans are describing them as like, why are they so smelly?
okay so point of order what page are we on um so i am turning the page onto page 100 um so so we've covered 12 pages yeah yeah we have to keep going so we we cross the river um we find out that the native americans have a system where they're like okay we understand you're gonna cross our lands one way or another why don't we make some profit off of it we will charge uh something like a dollar per raft 50 cents per head of oxen i think
Yeah, so they basically set up a ferry system where they are helping to create rafts, right?They start clearing land and creating rafts immediately.
They create all these rafts, and they also kind of charge them a toll to just travel across their land. Which is great.
Because this is the time where they are being put on reservations and so they have designated like area that this is Native American land.Reservations still exist today.I grew up near one of them.
Salamanca.Cool.And yeah, you can still like, we would, we'll go there to get gas because they don't charge federal tax.Right.Yeah.
So one of the tribal lands around here has a casino and that casino has served your own beer.Like you just get a little card and you can pour yourself as much beer as you want because the federal law doesn't apply.
It is just interesting to have these little pockets of like, yeah, technically we're not in America right now. I love that.I love it.I think it should be more privileged.
It's kind of like going from Rome to Vatican City.There's a lot of cultural sameness, but also this is not quite the same.
Don't love that they're being shoved onto reservations, but as much sovereignty as we can give them, I'm all for it.
so anyway they they the Viscardi family has a fairly uneventful um uh crossing the river though the whole river crossing takes four or five days so yes the wagon train is that long they're going kind of one at a time and then um but there's some commotion towards the end that uh Teresa gets very nervous about because she hasn't seen J.W.
or or Mary Margaret come over And so they go and there's like yelling and screaming and we find that one wagon has tipped off the raft and has kind of flipped upside down.And very sadly we find out that two young children have died.
um the Hesse family which must have been German Hilde who is 10 and her one-year-old baby sister Katerina.
As I recall they have the beautiful older sister who's like 17.Oh really?Remember from the beginning of the book?
i prepare to be wrong there were a lot of characters i just don't know i just i just have a bad memory that's fine so i'm sure you're right um so yeah it causes a lot of anger the men especially are angry as if the native americans did this on purpose yes which is a wild response eugenio in in particular um is one of the ones that is closest to theresa that is like really expressing like
it must be their fault um and and Teresa doesn't buy into that um so we have on 107 Uncle Eugenio said did you see those savages terrible word stood like statues and didn't say or do a thing didn't even look sad and they killed those girls this is um this is they have like a little funeral for the as they bury the girls um and
Yeah, and Teresa writes, plenty of our men were on the raft, and they didn't see it coming apart.So how would Mr. Below, like, they're just the men are voice of reason.Yeah, the men are really looking for someone to blame.
And because of their own cultural prejudices, they want to blame the Native Americans.
Probably sad, but telling when children have a better vision than the people in power.
I think it is telling that prejudice and racism is not inherent.It is learned.It's socialized.So I commend Teresa here where she's not really going along with it.But we have this beautiful scene where like the settlers have their
um funeral for the girls and then um across the river they hear um the Native Americans having their own kind of ceremony for it they are um banging drums and um dancing dancing yeah and so uh she says that we heard the first drum go boom just as the sun went down then there was a long pause then another loud boom another pause
another boom again and again so slow at first that i could count to four or five between them next the sound of a man's voice almost like a wailing moan began to drift us through the trees and then of course uncle eugenio chimes don't they have any respect and he's like that is uncle eugenio makes me insane he makes me so mad in this second half i
Admittedly, I'm not a big fan in the first half.I think I think this whole Idea of this wagon train is ill-thought-out.Oh, yeah, this family should have stayed in New York.These are city people They have no business being out here
yeah it's it's kind of hard to say because i do think we'll find that like they do make a life for themselves certainly spoiler alert but um yep you know it i don't know i i as not a famously not a huge fan of big cities um and i i don't mind see like to me like these people lived in new york city why would you ever leave because it's new york city love new york city you haven't been there have you
yeah okay you've been there yep i get not very much but certainly not as much as you well i've been there like four times but oh okay so i've been there just less than three times okay so you still win it's you lived in new york state there's a lot going on it's got literally everything you could possibly want yeah
It's just very overwhelming to me.Yeah.I like the size of Grand Rapids.I love Grand Rapids.
It's the perfect size city for me.It's the perfect size city generally.I just wish it had more theater. But I'll take what I can get.All right.So one thing that I will say for Netta, she goes to the native camp and she makes her own observations.
And I love that about her.Let's keep going.I want to talk about page 114 where JW and Mary Margaret fight.
Yes, I wrote in this. I have been Mary Margaret in this situation so many times in my life.Really?Yes.So what happens is Mary Margaret and I walked and talked together, and then JW came riding up.
He wanted to know what you girls are chattering on about.And Mary Margaret said, we girls were not chattering on about anything.And I just thought, the number of times I have just gone off the handle.
seemingly very little provocation at someone is a lot.
I probably should do it more, but as we know, I'm a people pleaser who's in recovery.
And I have, well, and then what he goes on to say is, I think JW did not like the way she spoke to him because he grew quiet and then left.And I have personally seen that happen so many times.
especially with men and I don't necessarily mean to it's just I think there's just the way that well a lot of guys come off real smug and I don't think they know yeah I have to kind of assume that like they're not used to women talking to them that way and
for better or worse I do a lot of times and it's not it's not always good there's some times where I should kind of reel it in a bit and I kind of come off well personally I'm not impressed with JW's response here that's true he kind of does go off in a huff because he's just kind of like oh I don't know what I don't know how to react to that
Yes, but that goes on for a couple days.
Yeah, he does not kind of take it with grace.
In fact, I don't think it comes back up again for five pages if we moved page 119.
Well, yeah, he's kind of like playing it kind of cool.It becomes clear that he doesn't like Mary Margaret.
Which like, okay, just like speaking to our younger listeners, never, ever, ever speak ill of your partner's friends. Right?Especially between women.Like if Dan ever said anything negative about you, I would dress him down.
Don't you dare talk about her that way.You shut up right now.Unfortunately, that would never happen.Dan doesn't talk ill about people for the most part.But not my friends, right?Like all the people who were here together painting for Galentine's.
No, those people are beyond reproach.
yeah i mean it's just it's you should respect your partner enough to respect their friends yeah comma however that does not i i have given people mostly men a lot of side eye sometimes for the friends they keep um that's true
yeah so it's not a hundred percent it just so happens that in general i've got pretty good taste in people oh yeah in jet now i've made some big mistakes yeah yeah yeah yeah we don't need to talk about it on the podcast but yeah it's it's
it's delicate you don't want to just be like so yeah later he comes up and and I was about to say something about the other day to explain why I had been quiet and what I was feeling so yeah we learned that like Teresa like didn't really say anything and JW wrote off in a huff
And then he says, he kind of like cuts her off or like interjects before she has a chance to say anything.And he says, is she going to stop by soon?
Can't you just pick, like his petulant little voice, is she gonna stop by soon?No, I think he's a bit- I'll drag you right off that horse.
I think not only does he not like her, but I think he's jealous of how much time Grisa- I think there's something to that.Is spending with her because
That is probably Dan's only criticism of you is that I get a lot, you and I have spent a lot of time together and Dan's like, but we could do stuff.And I'm like, Jen, it's Jen day.I have to do stuff with Jen.Sorry, Dan.It's all right.
That's what female friendship is, man.It is.Yeah.Oh, he's pretty used to it.I mean, like, we've been a thing for like a decade.So he's adjusted.He's used to it.And now he likes you as a person, which takes a while.
I can tell because he makes fun of me more.Yep.
That is how you can tell.
That's our love language.So we're on page 119.We're on 118 to 119 and he's like very obviously jealous of the amount of time they're spending together and he Teresa says, I did not like the question, but I try not to be angry.
She may, I said, and I asked if that was a problem.JW looked annoyed and wanted to know why she didn't like him.And I told him that wasn't true, but that Mary Margaret didn't like when she said we were chattering girls. when he said that weird.
That's silly, he said.I didn't mean anything by it.She can't be very smart if she didn't know that.
He doubles down on the problem.I would have screamed him off that horse.
I was, oh, excuse me, sir.And so Teresa says, she has a name, Mary Margaret.And I guess you think I'm silly and not very smart because I didn't like it either. J.W.
swallowed hard and was about to say something, but all that came out was an ah and I wasn't being fair.
Pop coughed then, I think because both of our voices were getting loud.
That little tidbit made me laugh.But yeah, then we see he kind of is very kind of cold to her for the next few days.And he like, you know, rides his horse past their wagon and like doesn't greet them.It's so petty, very childish.
yeah and uh meanwhile the men of the wagon train are still being racist um and and there's like grumblings about how mr below is is managing i think the the route and the the pace um Oh, well, OK.
In regards to JW, I want to skip ahead a bit to 141, where, like, finally, we actually get them talking and resolving their conflict.
We have this building sense of, like, Teresa wanting to, like, just go up and talk to him and resolve it, which I really appreciate.That shows a lot of, like,
yeah, desire for conflict resolution, I guess, rather mature, very mature.Yeah.So it's a hard thing in a relationship to reach that point of vulnerable honesty which is truly what you need for a good relationship.
You need to be honest to the point where somebody can hurt you with that honesty.
It's so rare to see this kind of healthy conflict resolution in fiction because I think so much of like especially romantic fiction thrives on the lack of good communication as a source for drama and I really love that this is not doing that.
Yeah, I recently learned that there's a term for that, it's called an idiot plot, where the plot wouldn't work if not everybody involved was an idiot.
oh yeah so like all that you know we just didn't say yeah like oh this this movie wouldn't exist if people just talked about their feelings yep and just communicated with each other yeah i i hate that so that's not what happens here so she she finally gets her chance um i i went no i marched right over to the anderson's wagon determined to have my talk jw said he was exhausted and did not feel well
And he did look all done in, but I said I needed to say something and he needed to listen.This feels very Italian women.Yes.Which in the best way.I asked if he had been staying away from me because he was angry.
He said he thought I was the one who was angry and that I was staying away from him.I was about to say that was silly when I remembered how that word had made me so upset the last time and decided not to use it.
uh-huh we have her thinking of hashtag growth that's exactly what i wrote here hashtag growth not hashtag but growth um just the the emotional intelligence of knowing like
to be considerate of his feelings while she's still upset with him, and to know, like, if I use this word that upset me, that's just going to make it worse, even though she's still mad at him.Yeah.Yeah.Very powerful.Yeah.
So I said I was never angry, not enough to stay away from him, and that he was never really that angry either.I said I wanted both him and Mary Margaret to be my friends.
You know, the key part here is, like, you don't have to be friends, but I am friends with both of you. So you need to figure out a way to deal with that.And then he said that was fine with him.
I should have been happy with that, I guess, but I decided I never wanted to feel so bad again.And I told JW that he had to promise to talk with me if we ever had a problem and not go around with the bad feelings inside.
the number of times that that has saved my relationship like the nothing kills a relationship more like more than like resentment and like bottled up feelings that you are not
talking about and they're just way at you festering and getting worse when you could just have a five-minute conversation and discover that like but you have to both agree to be in that place of vulnerable honesty yeah like i'm going to give you some criticism and i need you to hear it and you need to like
Talk about it, both be willing to admit that you have done things bad and we'll work on things in the future.
Like, oh, I can hear why that would upset you, that silliness comment.
So I'm going to work on never saying that again and trying to be more considerate of your feelings.
Yeah.It should be a conversation of like, hey, this upset me.OK, I didn't realize I was upsetting you, but I am sorry that I did.Don't minimize the other person's feelings.
care about each other enough to talk about what happened and then care enough to both be willing to change.Glorious.That, like I, it's actually really incredible seeing this kind of like conflict resolution just like right here.In a children's book.
This is for second to third graders.
Yeah, I feel like if more people internalized this.Right. Like, this is actually a really important message.No, 100%.And stuff like that.
Remember, that's the point of children's literature is to impress morals and learning on our kids.
Yeah, and it's incredible that it's not in more things.Like, it's just so clearly spelled out here.
So I think Pixar does well with that sort of thing. you know, vulnerable honesty throughout in a lot of their films.
Yeah.What page have you got?So, yeah, that was page 141.That was kind of that, that conflict is wrapped up.I think we should move on to the big drama that happens.
So it starts, there's a little hint of big drama first on page 143.There's an illness spreading throughout the wagon train.It is not expressly determined, but people talk about like a queer stomach, for example.
We have, yeah, stomach aching and some fevers.
Yes, which to me says something like dysentery or cholera.
Yeah, and my experience playing Oregon Trail would tell me probably dysentery, but I've never felt it, so I don't know what it feels like.
Right, hopefully we never know.
I have learned that something like cholera is actually very treatable.You're just dehydrated.Right, you just need a lot of good water.You just need a ton of good water, and that was the issue, is that they were drinking bad water.
So you get incredibly thirsty, but if you keep drinking bad water, it just It kills you.Right.
You've just become a filter of trash.
So anyway, that is to say that if you get cholera.
So they are almost immediately also told, because they're heading into the Blue Mountains, that they need to lighten the wagons.And at this point in time, they've lightened the wagons enough that the family doesn't even fight anymore.
Yeah, they're like, sure.We leave Teresa's Sunday dresses.Yeah, all of her Sunday dresses, a lot of Eugenio's clothes.
Oh, and also, crucially, they bury Willie Keel.Right. who has been carried along in his own wagon since Dakota.
With Coyote Cal driving him.
Yes.And so he is buried to make room to carry the sick.
I think in the book, the movement of that for Mr. Keel, in this fictitious account of his life, in part, is in line with the sort of things that he would have really done.I have a lot to talk about with that.
Yeah, that's what I'm trying to get you to move along.I'm ready to move along.Let's do it So illness has come into the camp.We're lightening the wagons.Yeah, and then we have discovered that there is a silver Yes silver found page 129
Yeah, so going back a little bit, we meet... 136 is where we leave.We meet a traveling Shakespeare company, Hippolyte Labrie, and he is kind of by himself saying like, I'm so sorry, all of my players have gone off because they've found silver.
They have this article from the... I don't know.
some newspaper some newspaper that says that silver has been found in the black hills and uncle eugenio uh-huh is he's a problem throughout he is a problem it uh kind of convinces papa uh he is not the only one who's convincing people but like there's a a bunch of men who decide that this is too good of an opportunity to pass up and they're gonna leave
All the women are going to stay with the wagon train, but the men are going to go off.
Their families, many of whom are sick with an unknown illness, and they're going to go off and find their fortunes.And Papa and Uncle Eugenio are among them.And they go.And they go.And they just go.I was shocked.I was shocked, too.Yeah, their mama is
mad yeah and i think correctly so uh we do see rosario resort rosaria the cousin eugenio's daughter yeah his only child from what i can tell no there's i think she has a little brother okay um oh the baby Baby Tomas.The baby.Yes.I don't remember.
I don't know who Tomas belongs to.
I think so.But anyway, so Rosario starts to make inroads as like, more of a friend cousin with Teresa.And I think that's nice.Yeah.And then if we jump ahead to page 149.Yes.We get a new aspect of this story.Yes.So if you'll read that entry. 149.Is that what you said?
We're leaving again.Not everybody, just Nana and me.
Oh, yes.Yes.So first of all, they get left behind on 146.So the men have left.Yes.And it is basically mostly women and children on this wagon train.And so specifically, Teresa's family has been left behind by the rest of the wagon train.
Yesterday, Aunt Marta did not feel well, but managed to drive her wagon till the train stopped for the night.She grew worse during the night, as did Rosaria.Ernesto also does not feel well, and Mama worries that they all have the fever.
And so, essentially, because Aunt Marta can't drive, they can't go any- like Teresa can drive but nobody else can.And so their two wagons are left behind.
And Mary Margaret cried when I told her and then hugged me and JW said he would be back for me and kissed me even though mama and nana were right there.Scandalous.
um kind of nice though yeah and then our wagon and tent sit on a hill with a far view of the black hills and the waves and waves of nothing in between the last wagon disappeared from sight just before 11 o'clock i would be terrified to be just like with your grandmother with yes and just like
yeah your grandmother your sick cousin and aunt like i cannot so like my grandma doris is still alive and she is 88 or so i would imagine that this grandma is younger so she's gotta be when let's just assume though we're the ratio of ages is the same so if i take myself back 20 years so my grandma would have been 68 i imagine so imagine having a 68 year old
and yourself, a 14 year old, walking across South Dakota. looking for your father and uncle who went off chasing.Surviving in the wilderness.Yes, with just one donkey and a barrel of water.Yeah.That's insane.And a gun.And a gun.That's insane.
And they do reach some trouble if we go to page 155.
Okay, we haven't even introduced why they're left.Oh, sorry.You're getting ahead of us.So essentially they're left behind by the wagon train and they have sick family members and
And then they just kind of get to a point where they get so sick that they're like, we just need to go get the men.And so I don't know why they said Nana.I guess maybe they just think that the men will listen to Nana.
Lord knows they're not going to listen to anybody else.
I don't know why.They didn't listen to Mama.I'm sure Aunt Marta had something to say.Maybe not, though.I don't know.We never hear from Aunt Marta except for that she kind of annoys Mama.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.So yeah, so Teresa and Nana set off for Rapid City.Not the wagons, just Nana and me.Ernesto's worse and Mama wants us to find Papa and Uncle Eugenio and get them to come back here fast.
Nana said she would drag them back by their ears if they said no.So I guess that's why she's going.
and so yeah they set off um because this is crap this yeah it's it's dumb um and they're they set off by themselves just like trying to travel the the tracks that they see yeah and i it's only traveling by daytime too so they don't miss something in the dark i to be lost in the middle of the wilderness they don't have a map they don't have anything i would be
angry yeah i think i would feel anger i feel anger that our child is it that this child is in this position yeah so she's she's trying her best to navigate because she's basically in charge at this point yep um man is on the donkey and she's distracting herself by like saying prayers for all of her sick family members and
And then she starts reciting the capitals of all the states right that she knows doing her studies.Uh, and she's just yeah, she's Singing songs.
She's you know, she's and nana's just kind of back there.Um, let's jump ahead to page 155.Yes so, um
two she they're traveling along and she sees two men come riding over a hill and and saw us i didn't even see them approaching they were just there um and and then the they get to them and one man and they the second man just managed and told me that they were going to the silver fields and could use our mule and our supplies and that they would give me five dollars for them
um which is useless when you're in the wilderness what is money going to do when you can't when there's nothing to buy so uh like nana of course is like saying no she calls them banditi um which annoyed the first man enough that he told nana to shut up which nana did not do and then the other took out a coin and said they didn't want to talk anymore and the deal was settled and here was the money um
And then, but Nana, you know, hit his hand and was sent the coin sailing into the grass.Both men were yelling at Nana now, and she was between them turning to scold one and then the other, which is when I took out the rifle and pointed it at them.
Which is wild! And she's like, leave, leave her alone.And, and they just kind of, you know, underestimate her and they start calling her names and tell her to put the gun down.
And then he took a step towards me, which was the wrong thing to do because it scared me enough that my finger twitched on the trigger.I had pointed the rifle at the men to scare them and had forgotten that it was loaded from the day before.
So when my finger hit the trigger, I was surprised as anybody. when the rifle went off with a roar and blast of white smoke.
It doesn't hit anyone, but still I admire her moxie.
Yeah, it knocks her back and of course spooks the guys and she gets back up and she does take a couple more shots at them.She never does hit them, but like there's one time where she's aiming at above his head and it hits like right by his hand.
It's like, it's pretty scary.Right.
but eventually she scares them off and oh also they have a pistol and she makes them drop it um and so she gets their pistol right i admire her very much yeah um so well nana says uh you know she's like suddenly very proud of her um and she's like you're like one of garibaldi's warriors theresa you gave those two bandits what they deserved that's when she gave me a powerful hug and i started to laugh and cry at the same time
Been there That laugh-cry business.That's for real.I don't know who Garibaldi is.
I assume that's some sort of Italian boy It must be some Italian war hero Yeah, but you you see here page 159
yeah okay yeah she like sleeps with the gun by her and you see she kind of like assumes this responsibility and like now it's a big thing though we are once again asking an awful lot of children
I am proud to say that if I were 14, there's no way, well, I don't know.Doris probably would have had the gun.If it were me and Doris trekking it across Michigan, I imagine she would have had the gun.
But we were not the kind of women who would have been afraid to have the gun.
Let me try that again.What I mean is we were socialized to be around guns and understand guns and know how to use guns, etc.Not to the extent that some people are.Right.Right.Like there's like hunting rifles in our house.
My father would try to get a deer every year.My grandfather usually did get a deer every year. But it wasn't the gun culture that some houses have.But still, I object to Teresa being put in this position.
Yeah, yeah.I mean, it's very much like let kids be kids, but this is... Special circumstances do apply.Definitely a special circumstance.Can we move to page 160?Absolutely.So the men come back.We get information that it's a bust.
Oh and that it's possibly a fake article.
Uh, yeah, we hear that the article they in they were in a hurry to be the first to report it so they uh did not verify the claim that they were silver and it turns out it's really just a bunch of copper and Not even that much has its use.
But yeah, yeah.Yeah copper is definitely very valuable.
Um, but michigan built on copper.
Mm-hmm um jump ahead to 165 yeah well so the men come back and she even yeah she's reunited with papa and uncle eugenio um and papa is like very anxious to get back to his family and theresa it's about time yeah
But I think it frustrates me, because it's very kind of performative and not very intelligent.Because Teresa has to be the voice of reason of like, hey, we need to stop and let these animals rest, or else they're going to die.
And we won't have them anymore.
And you're a particularly smart oxen.I think that's the other thing that bugs me.Zepetiah and Redtop, the oxen, they go with the men.
They do.No, I don't think they do.I think they have horses.
uh one of the signs that we know we are finding eugenio and papa is that we see our oxen grazing nearby zepataya and redtop um i thought that was the sign that they had made it back to the wagon nope that's page 165 so if we go back to page 161 or so yeah but they find
I tried to read it and I didn't get it.This is not interesting audio.It's all right.No, that's, yeah, they're following the thin trail of smoke back to the wagon.Because we're reunited with Papa on page 160. were before.
All right.Maybe I'm just confused.Yeah, they just they Yeah.And so like, but as we got closer, we could see the shape of two wagons.And then I saw Zephaniah and Red Top.
Okay, that's probably what I was reading.
Yeah.All right.So but that's like 165 or so. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Great.But we have Teresa and Papa constantly arguing.Papa's like, we need to keep moving.And Teresa's like, we need to be smart so that we don't kill our animals.
And we don't want to get lost.And they actually start listening to her, because Nana, for one, is sticking up for her.And he's like, listen to your daughter.She's smart.
She's gotten us out of rather a few itchy things.And also, Uncle Eugenio's like, oh, you have a pistol?I want the pistol.
again and uh he makes me insane and nana's like it's her pistol she decides who who has it and she's and theresa's like i'm gonna keep it which is probably for the best um uh yeah he says specifically what use is a pistol to a girl the same as for a boy i answered it's a good answer yeah
um did you so they finally make it back to the wagon mama is so glad to see them they see this thin trail of smoke and they see the wagons um and they it it takes a minute for them to get there but yeah mama comes up to rush to see them
And what did she say?Mama hurried out to meet us, rushing first to embrace Papa and then to say how thankful she was to see him and all of us.
Uncle Eugenio asked how Aunt Marta and Rosaria, and Mama said they were both fine, though tired, and Uncle Eugenio went back to check on them.
And Ernesto, Papa wanted to know he is safe, Mama said, and then her hands went to her face and she began to cry.But our sweet Antonetta,
Which is when the penny dropped for me.Oh man, they did such a good job with the drama here.Like this was very emotional.She didn't say it.She didn't have to.It was clear from the way she was shaking what had happened.
I felt a numb, tingly feeling traveling from my head down my back and arms, and suddenly I was so tired my legs felt heavy and useless. So when my friend Lexi died, we were all 14.Yeah, and they held Lexi in a state long enough to harvest her organs.
And so when they finally told us that she was gone and that, you know, they've been trying to encourage us to keep this hope all day after we learned about the car accident.
They're like, well, you know, she's at this hospital.We're gonna pray for her.Everybody, you know, we're all gonna be together and we're gonna hope and pray.And when they finally told us, I felt my knees give out.
Like I was like, oh, oh, that's what that is.And like that sudden thunderbolt of grief is very intense when you're 14.
when you're that age and like you know people talk about like oh you know young people think they're invincible and like this is what that means is like when you learn about a peer of yours dying and you suddenly have this like flash of realization about how fragile life is yeah
um like i i had a friend have a very bad appendix burst um and i didn't really treat i was like oh yeah people's appendix like people have their appendix taken out and i realized later that it was like no it was bad yeah that can lead to like septicemia and like all sorts of problems and having that like
Oh, yeah, you know feeling of like this could have been horrible.
Yeah.I'm glad that she's okay.Yeah.Yeah, she's fine So we've lost Antoinette Antoinette had died on Friday in the afternoon just about the time We left the main trail from Rapid City and headed toward the wagons
The fever came over her on Thursday and got worse quickly.
And I think like one of the last entries that we had her writing, she was talking about having stomach pain.
Yes, she's the one who says, I have a queer stomach.
They, yeah, they foreshadowed this.
they i think they handled this book really well um so you know we we learned that we lost her yeah what really got me though um is it says later mama said to me i found these in her pocket theresa pages from your diary
I hope he is slaving away up there. I hope he's very busy.
So then we get her effective final words.
Which is so heartbreaking.
I was like truly, truly... But I love the energy that Netta has through it all.She's such a good heart.
Yeah, so we have, you know, like, Teresa and Nana rode off this morning.
I wanted to tell them they were a sight with Nana perched up high on General O'Brien's back, surrounded by... General O'Brien is what they named their donkey, which is very funny.I think it's a great name.
And Teresa wearing such a long sad face inside her bonnet.I did not want to send Teresa off hangry at me, so I'll wait for her to return to tell her. And then she says like, oh, my stomach hurts again.
When we were on this train, my stomach also hurts, but it went away in a few days, so I guess this will too.And she tells, she's reading.
Hey, sometimes that is organ failure.If you can get to a doctor, go to a doctor.
Yeah, yeah.Ask me how I know. She's trying to distract herself.She's reading the Shaker Almanac, which she puts a joke in there, which I said Kate will love this.What ship carries more passengers than the Great Eastern?Court ship.
But she also... I love corny jokes.I know, yeah.
It's not long enough though.This one's too short for my real tastes.
I know, it really is.But the heartbreaking thing that we learn is that she's kind of so diligent in like tending to the other sick people and and like not wanting to worry her mother that she doesn't mention how ill she feels.
I don't know who's to say that that would have made any difference.But she says, I don't want to tell mama, so I'm going to sit under the wagon and rest.It's very hot, and so am I. Every little noise hurts.I am going to rest more.
And then at the very end, she misspells the word sincerely.And Teresa says, when I saw that Netta had misspelled, I felt myself smile because I found a mistake of hers at last.
Never mind that she's dead, but all right.
No, I mean, it's just like this.Sisters.
Well, but it's that weird grief thing where
sometimes a very small thing like that will just like make you laugh um yep and you're just like dang like this person is gone and they would have like when you realize like what kind of reaction they would have had to something it's touching i i really think this book is one of the best right yeah i think it is this not as good as hattie and not as good as a picture of freedom
A picture of freedom was so close to being perfect.
If they had just been all the way for real with kids that I wish we could be.Yeah.So we get a rider coming and it's Shep and he he was like well I thought it might be all and he hands her a teeny tiny envelope with a note from Mary Margaret.Yeah.
I don't have time to write a long letter, so these foods will have to do.My mother is ill, but not badly, and my father, my sister, and I are fine.I hope your brother is recovered and that you're not sick with the fever.
Who will I talk to if you get sick?Shep will tell you all that has happened here, but I wanted to tell you that I'm writing for you, I'm waiting for you, and that you should get healthy and hurry up because I miss talking to you, your friend, M.M.
P.S.A certain gentleman has been wandering around the camp looking very lost and alone.I said hello to him yesterday and he asked, have you heard from Teresa?I believe this young gentleman misses a certain young lady a great deal."
Cute.That was very cute.In the midst of all this, like, devastation.
I know, which is, I think, one of the things I like about it.Hattie had some very cute moments with Wade in the midst of the devastation, but I will say her book had a lot more devastation. That wild carrot thing?
I don't know.This one, I mean, OK, fair.Teresa didn't actually commit unintentional manslaughter.Right.But this one got me, I think it got me in the sister feels.Which you have and I sometimes lack.Yeah.
My apologies to my sister.
I have a very close relationship to my sister, and I am the younger sister.And you do have younger sister energy.I do have a little sister energy.And so, I don't know, I think also because Netta was a writer, a point of view in this book.
It was... It's hard losing her.
It was as close as we'll ever get to the main character dying.Which is just, it's very jarring to go from someone who you're seeing their and reading their inner thoughts to that person is now gone.
um and so yeah i was i was like tearing up with this um so shep has come he's kind of like been sent back to to check on the people who have been left behind and the viscardis are not the only ones so he says i'm gonna go further back check in with the others and then they say like okay by the time you get back we'll be ready to go with you yeah i think that's a good rejoin the wagon like instigation to get them to keep moving because
um Teresa said you know um where Nana says good when the dead are buried it is time for the living to move on um hard to do and then yeah but Teresa goes on still I worry that when we are out of sight of Netta's grave I will forget her just as I have forgotten Francesca's voice and so many other things from our street which is also heartbreaking where she's like it's
It can be very difficult to leave someone behind.
Yeah.While I was cleaning out here, I found, I was putting together a toy chest.
And I found a bunch of pictures of my friends who've died.And I was like, cool.That's rough.I know.Yeah. I'll show you Rebecca after.
I don't think you guys ever met.No, I didn't.What's even more heartbreaking is in preparation for them having to leave, Theresa goes to visit Netta's grave, which is like a little ways from the camp on a hill.
They like covered her grave with like stones to make sure no animals got to it.Yeah.
um and she just like sits near and she like touches the rocks and she starts speaking to her um and it's just so heartbreaking and like it's making me emotional right now and i'm not a crier no on this i'm usually the lighter touch you're the one who cries and i'm feeling misty um and she she it's that sister feel though it's the sister feels she's like talking you'll be wrecked if laura goes anywhere
Laura, you gotta stick around.You can't.And she's like speaking to her and then she decides that from now on I will call my diary Netta.
This way I can talk to Netta my diary directly and I will maybe will not miss Netta my best friend and sister so much.It's so sad.Oh, you're really crying.I'm honestly crying.It's so touching.Aw, Jeffrey.
And she says that she wishes that the Indians were there to sing and drum for Netta. And then she, out of the corner of my eye, a streak of twinkling bright light, a shooting star maybe, moved across the sky.
There, one second, and then gone into the blackness of the universe, the next.That was Netta in heaven, I told myself, where she will drive St.
Peter and all of the other saints and angels crazy with her little sister know-it-all antics for all eternity, which made me smile and cry at the same time.I said goodnight to Netta then and went back to camp.
ah yeah i'm honestly crying i feel like such a role reversal right i know it's usually me just sitting here awkwardly listening to you crock oh it's good that we have balance now it is yeah so we make it back to the wagon train
And we hit the epilogue pretty much right away.We never make it to opportunity in this book.And I got to tell you, that made me nuts.Well, we're doing the epilogue.I mean, what more do you want?The epilogue is great.
It is great, honestly.So she comes back.She's reunited with the wagon train.She spots JW, who jumped on his horse and spurs it and came to greet us.And Mary Market's there.And they have this very cute reunion.
And she does leave it on kind of a touching note.We are together, Mama, Papa, Nana, Ernesto, Thomas, and me, and we have our thoughts about you and everybody else, and we are surrounded by all of these people who care about us.
And in a few days, Mr. Kiel told us we will all leave for the Idaho Territory an opportunity, and I can't wait to tell you all about it.I will talk with you again soon, your forever sister. Yeah.So we find out in the epilogue.Who are you texting?
No one.OK.We do find out in the epilogue quite a bit about her life.They make it to opportunity, and she becomes an assistant teacher.
Which is such a cool thing for somebody who used to struggle with spelling.I think a lot of teachers.
You're a better teacher if you remember how hard things are.I think so.Failure makes you stronger.
I think it makes you more empathetic as well. And so both Viscardi families do well.Uncle Eugenio and Aunt Marta have a dry goods store.And then we find out that Papa and Mama, they have a farm and they are very successful farmers.
They expand their farm. Um, Ernesto goes off to college in California.I was surprised at how many characters like leave Opportunity.Right.
Well, and I assume Opportunity is kind of like Aurora.Yeah.Which is what a real town that William Keel established as a community as a communist community.Right.And it was in Oregon rather than Idaho.Right.
Because Idaho to California feels like a lot to me, whereas Oregon to California less so.
Well, I'm sure it's that thing where you just founded this small town.It doesn't have a university.So if you want to further your education, you're going to have to go somewhere.
But it mentions, I think, Mary Margaret or someone else marries someone in Arizona.
yeah i was like that's wild possibly rosaria oh rosaria married and when she was 17 moved to arizona not where she had four children and carried on a lively correspondence i was like that's a long way to go so my favorite detail about this epilogue at the end of it we see a television
Oh, yes, there's a TV.We so we see this stretch of history really made clear.Yeah, where you know how much life Teresa maybe would have seen.Yeah, being born in like 1870 ish.Yeah, and going all the way to 1950 or so.
Yeah, so incredible.We learned that she doesn't marry JW.She does he asks for time.
He asks four times and she says She never told him why she would not marry him But she did tell Netta JW is a good man and a dear kind friend and he won't do great things in his life But you're right.
He does not laugh enough and life without laughter is a life without surprises and that is something I could not bear and
yeah another real dose of maturity from this character yeah but she does marry um another man named james madden when she's 36 good age um and they have three children yeah three and then grandkids eventually yeah and playing with her t but what i love is
it ends with a final diary entry, where you learn that this whole time she's still writing a diary and still writing to Nada, which I think is very sweet.And yeah, this diary entry takes place in 1952.
So she talks about the children, their children, and their children.So she's a great-grandmother and she talks about like, you know, one of them saying, why don't you have a television?We have one.
Benji- Oh, why don't you have a television?
There we go.Cristine- She doesn't, yeah.
but still they exist this is the 50s that swath of history that she saw is really incredible and so she uh she says um i tapped the side of my head and said i have all the pictures i need up here uh can you really she said can i see them if i look in your ear i laughed so loud that jackie began laughing and so did the others around us i realized then that despite some sad moments and some hard times i have had one of the happiest lives of anybody i know
It might not be much, but I don't know many people who can say that and really mean it.And then she says, I can hear James banging around in the kitchen, which means he is looking for something and can't find it.
You would think he would know by now to wear his glasses.I will close and talk with you later.And for now, your sister, Tav.Cute.
So we have a great historic note that mostly stresses a couple of things about how William Keel was a real person and Willie Keel, his son, really was dragged across the... So in this story, Willie Keel, or William Keel... Wilhelm, real name.
he it's not the real historical one it's based on the real historical man and there are many similarities but this is definitely a fictional version also moved into the future by about 30 years yeah and he's also settling in a different state like there's eventually yeah he he changes some some things to make it just his own story yep
So I read this great article that you found for me on JSTOR.It was written in June of 1935 for the Oregon Historical Quarterly.Wonderful.I know.So this is the story of William Keel, who was creating this town of opportunity in our fictional novel.
But in the real book, he created two communist societies Starting around the 1850s.
He had been living I believe in New York City and then upstate New York Where he started.Uh-huh.It's the burned over district yet again Spiritual revivalism.Oh my god, the Holy Land of Rochester, New York so many cults have started and William Keel
is, in my opinion, a cult leader.And I'm going to tell you why.So there's a lot here.I took a lot of notes.I'm going to try and condense.First of all, he was born in, and I'm going to butcher this, it's
Prussia which could be Ukraine or Russia or Poland today.Exactly.I didn't get a chance to look it up.But the town was Blykrod, Blykrod, in the regions of Ufurt.Prussia 1811 he's born.So he's basically a Regency baby.
He was elementary school trained and then he was going to be a tailor.He was apprenticed in Merzburg.
uh to the Parcellus brothers who were both very pious people and they got him very interested in spirits and religion and what it is to be a good person.And he started working in that town in addition to being a tailor's apprentice
He also studied the work of a medicine woman, and he was looking for the stone of the wise while he was still in Prussia, which was a panacea, or panacea, I don't know how to say that word.
In Italian it would be panacea, but it's a medicine that would work for all disease. Oh.So vitamin C. Oh.And he started making really, he started working basically as a doctor or pharmacist in addition to being a tailor.
He met a woman and married in 1835.They moved to New York City together where he did start working as a doctor or pharmacist in New York City.He set up a druggist business. in addition to his tailoring.
He was so successful, and he had such a good knowledge of botany that he had learned from this medicine woman back in Prussia, that he was called der Hexendoktor. Which means witch doctor.
Yeah.That's one of the words I learned in Duolingo.Hexa.Witch.I was like, Duolingo, you know what I need to know.
Right.You know how to keep me here.You've got your finger on the pulse.So he got into religious revivals and specifically Methodism, which is not the same Methodist church that I was raised in.That early Methodist church was a little spicy.
But religious revival was all the rage back then.
so 1835 He starts working with a Methodist minister whose name is Martin Hartman who was a communist and he taught the principles of communism to our boy Wilhelm But that connection to Protestant Methodism had too many rules for Wilhelm.
Okay, he didn't care for that because he started getting real weird.He made this announcement that he was going to fast for 40 days and that he would be sacrificed at the end of it.God was going to strike him down as like a symbol.
This is very Jesus-y.Uh-huh.And he started thinking of himself as the centrosone or central sun.And everybody who was close to him in the church that he was building was a prince or princess of light.
Now, surprise, surprise, when he went to get sacrificed by God, God didn't show up to do the deed.I wonder why.And he was like, don't worry about it, guys.There's other stuff coming.And so he started working on it.
And he started working with George Rapp, the Harmony Society of George Rapp, which was one of the religious districts, burned over districts, cults.They were called the Harmonists.
And they gave five principles that would become the principles for life at both Bethel and Aurora.
Now, here's what's upsetting.Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.Jen, do you remember my retirement plan?
yeah oh yeah you want to start a cult yep and you've been very upfront about this yeah i think i'd be really good at it i think i'd be a great lieutenant i think you would be such a great lieutenant like if you were my enforcer are you kidding me yes we could take it all on so i i once told you during our last podcast yeah what the rules for my cult were gonna be right okay
I would like to read to you the following five rules and tell you if it rings any bells.Uh-huh.So one, you have to give all property to Rapp, remember George Rapp of the Harmonists.
Yeah, this is only logical.
Yeah, and his associates.Obey the restrictions of commonality.Okay.Which is everybody works together and you work only for its welfare.Yeah. If you leave, you don't get a reward for past work.
However, if you do withdraw, you will get the value of the property you put into the call.
I know!But in return, George Rapp and Associates pledged that they will supply all necessaries of life in health and in sickness and after death they will provide for your families.It's insurance, it's just insurance.
If you take Jesus out of it, it's just insurance.So I think that I should start a cult and these were basically the same rules I was setting up.All sex has to be consensual was the only other rule that I had.
Because one of the bad downfalls of cults frequently
We don't need to get into that too deeply.All right, so we're gonna keep going.It gets, they usually take a turn.
Yeah.My cult's not gonna though.You should join.
Oh, this one will be different.Yeah, I've often said that it's the ideal place to be is You want to get in on the ground floor of an MLM or a pyramid scheme?
Oh, yeah.Be one of the early joiners.
Be an early adopter so that you're close to the top of the pyramid, but you are not ultimately liable.
Yeah.That's the ideal place.So you find a young up-and-coming.
That's me, guys.I'm going to be the young up-and-coming personality hire, effectively. The rapists have a problem.Unfortunately, George Bites It and his 800 members.
Rapists. is the Harmonists.That is so.I know, it's not great.Oh, boy.It's bad.
Oh, boy.You've got to be so careful with that.
There's also another German who creates his own little cult, and people get dissatisfied with that.And I think the government goes after him in Subway.So his 170 members leave, and about 400 members of the Harmonists, or the Rappists, leave.
And now they're all following William Keel, who is this next highly personable leader
Yeah, because cultists if you're in one call, I feel like you're very likely to be at another cult later Yeah, right like Baptists people participate in MLMs all the time from scheme to scheme exactly.
Yeah so These people go and they all join these two dissolved cults follow him and they create the Bethel mission in 1844 And they grow too fast.They have a shortage of housing and food.They're not able to take care of all these people.
And so there's a lot of people who are getting upset and they're actually blaming Kiel.And Kiel's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.I'm basically God.This can't come back on me.I'm perfect.And remember, he's living in comfortable.
His family members have food and housing the whole time.But I repeat, other people do not.His son, William, goes off to college. And unfortunately, shortly after he returns, dies and is placed in a lead-lined, alcohol-filled coffin.
So this is definitely an older son than I imagined.
Yeah, he wasn't like a little boy, he was like a great teen.
I don't know if this book ever specified an age.Not that I remember.And it doesn't matter because this is a fictional version of him, but I imagined a young boy.
Our Teresa's story would have happened 30 years later.
Oh, I know.I don't know why he chose to use a real person's name and vibe.
Right, especially when he could have just stolen the idea.
It is definitely a fictional person in this.
So he does have this success.He's got 700 people.And they start moving west, because the first camp grew too big too quick.And so he wants to go west, away from the ills of society.
Because by this time, Bethel, which is in Missouri, is getting pretty built up.
Exactly.So that's too worldly.
With their 30,000 people cities. Right.
So goes west, promises to take his son with him.That's all true.He actually has a lot of curiosity about Native people.And when they are curious about him and come into his camp, he treats them with a great deal of respect.
Even though he can't quite feed everybody, he's giving these Native Americans who come to him the best of everything he can afford.
And that does seem to track with the fictional version of him.I agree.He's pretty generous.
So they find land north of San Francisco in Oregon that already basically has like an oyster trade going with San Francisco.And they set up a very large farm with orchards and wheat and all sorts of vegetable gardens.
And it actually works as a communist society really, really well. And because in the 1880s and the 1860s, as this is getting set up, a lot of people start vacationing.And some of the first vacations become popular throughout the world.
And so people from San Francisco would come to this area to eat fresh food and breathe fresh air and take maybe sometimes the water cure.
Yes, uh-huh familiar and They provide all that so they have this growth community they have shops they have orchestras They have a hotel and everybody is actually doing pretty well They would say that
He'll continue to amass power and power and power and eventually became the confessor and forgiver of sins There's always something there's always always a catch He also encouraged people to be single so that when they died their property would return to the cult and not get passed on to children
Now his children, these were rules for thee, not for me.So his children were encouraged to marry and spread and he had all the joys of family, but he denied that to the rest of his followers.
They did have a good school.Their school was as good as anything out east. But education was not encouraged.So this idea of going off to college would not have been encouraged from Aurora.Because you should just be doing things for the community.
I mean, to be fair, I was falling into that trap.I was like, you walked all this way.Right. Why don't you just stay?Just stick around.Stay.
But yeah, so he was a real person and he had a lot of ups and a lot of bads.
Like some of this stuff, like learning this witch doctor stuff, having a knowledge of botany, treating Native Americans with respect, all objectively good things, but treating yourself as God, look, that's where you lose me.I draw the line.
Claiming that you're gonna be sacrificed in front of a crowd and then when it doesn't happen being like, oh, I got the math wrong or something, because that's always what cult leaders do.Look at a two year old camp.
So yeah, he was a real person and I just really enjoyed reading about his life because Jiminy Christmas.
What a strange thing.I had never heard of this man or any of these communities.I wonder if this author just kind of like chose to do that.I was like, hey kids.
If the guy is from Oregon, maybe it was part of their history. So I will say I'm having a heck of a time getting, the only real history that we can talk about here is about William Keel and so that's the interview that I'm trying to secure for us.
Anyway, that's all I have to say.I just thought William Keel was a really interesting character and the changes that the author made I think were probably for the best but like also you could have just faked this, bro.
you could have picked like and you could have made up an entirely fictional man yep um i i think it is it's an interesting um
choice to just have this kind of like story be a vignette of like kind of the American experiment and I think that's the point of it all is that you know this is this is the idealistic dream of America to be all this melting pot of different immigrant cultures that are all working together to although usually it's not a communist melting
No, no, no, but I don't think it it just does the book talk too much about communism.
No, nope Yeah, so I think that's part of the fictionalized version of it is that it's it's the American dream of the melting pot Working together that you know every everybody working together.
Yeah, like chapter one they have this stuff about community and that's and that's what opportunity is gonna be and
yeah i think that's the point of the story is is to talk about like wouldn't it be nice if we could all like form our own community and there's definitely elements of this that feel a bit fairy tale like but i think the all the hardships they go through along the way are very true to to history yeah the the flipped wagon and the yeah
illness the that's that all matches with what we know and also the idealism of like why what they wanted to what they were hoping to achieve i think is true even if they left out certain parts of that i wish they wouldn't have i think that would have like learning how the town was set up i think would have been more interesting than everything else we got but this book is an emotional heavyweight yes the fact that we lose our secondary narrator is
I think it's just more kind of generally about western expansion than specifically this cult.Right, and it was a cult.Yeah, that would have been interesting if it was a real like raw look at the inside of a cult.
Maybe we'll get one of those later.
I don't know.I would love that.There's a lot of cults in America.I think that's something we do rather well.
I wonder if there is something about the American dream that says anyone can be Jesus.I would like to write that paper. Right?Like, I think there is something.
All right.Well, we got to wrap it up, because I have to go lay down.
I'm so tired.20 miles is a lot.
There weren't a lot of hills, though, so that's good.
That's good.Proud of you.
Thank you.Nice disguise.Nice disguise.Nope.I'm done.I'm clearly done.My own personal mercury's at a retrograde.We got to sign off.
Whatever time of day it is when you are listening to this, we bid you good night.For us, it is 3.30.So to that we say adieu and good night.Au revoir.
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