Content warning, this episode contains discussion of the brutal murder of two girls, as well as severe mental health issues, including suicide.
Well, once again, it was a pretty big day in the trial of Richard Allen in Delphi, Indiana.We have a lot to talk about, so let's get to it.
My name is Anya Kane.I'm a journalist.
And I'm Kevin Greenlee.I'm an attorney.
And this is The Murder Sheet.
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.We're The Murder Sheet.
And this is The Delphi Murders.Richard Allen on trial.Day 11.The van.
Well, before we get started, I think we have a little bit of housekeeping to do.
First of all, I think it's the top of the show, let's mention that we're ready to induct two people into the coveted two-timers wing of the Lifesavers Club, because these are people who were kind enough not only to help us once, but to help us a second time, so they're in the two-timers wing.
Well, you've got a whole separate wing for them.
Don't you think they deserve it?
And if you want to see the splendors of the two-timers wing, you know what to do, folks.Who were these princes and princesses?
First of all, now it sounds like you're running a cult.And second of all, it was the wonderful Josh and Krystlen.Thank you guys both so much for helping us out again.We really, really appreciate it.
And just know that you're quite literally saving our lives out here.
Not only are you saving our lives, but you are literally making this podcast possible because even today, we left court.Court actually ended a bit early today at 4 p.m.And as we left court, people were already lining up.
And so if we didn't have people doing that for us, that means we wouldn't be able to record the show because we just have to spend our entire life either in court or in line to go to court.
Yeah, and I don't think if we tried to record outside, I don't think it'd end too well for us, so.
Anya has a bit of color to mention, but before she does, we also talked a lot today with a lovely woman who was making her first visit to the trial today, and she mentioned something that occurred to me.
I'm not sure if we've mentioned this on the show because we're so sleep deprived, I don't remember half the things we talk about. That's a good sign.
But just as a little note, it's kind of interesting that in the courtroom, the acoustics in this courtroom are bizarre.And by that, I mean there are a lot of things that you would expect to hear that you don't hear.
And then sometimes there are things you don't expect to hear that you do hear. Like sometimes I might hear a word or two that an attorney is saying to his client, even if I'm in the back row.It's very, very odd.
And so what they've done is, on the far left side of the courtroom, they put up a very tall, narrow column, which is a white noise machine, and it produces the sort of noise people often use when they're going to sleep at night, and it's kind of loud, and the judge pushes the button to trigger that anytime the attorneys have a sidebar.
For some reason, I thought we mentioned that already, but as you said, we're in a place where we don't really, we're not really keeping track.
For all I know, we did a special episode just about the white noise machine.
People are like, wow, their editorial decision making is really off the rails right now.We interviewed the white noise machine.
A lot of people are very kindly checking out the show for the first time.
During this Delphi trial.I encourage you, please stick around because generally we are a little bit more sane.
Yeah, a little more sane.I mean, it's kind of fun to let your personality out a bit, but I mean, I think we're kind of a bit much sometimes, and we're usually a little more buttoned up, so I don't know.We'll find a balance.
Hopefully everyone will like, but right now we're definitely a little more unhinged because we are tired and also just kind of running around constantly.
And we're doing no editing at all. Tell us a local color who visited the courthouse.
Oh, this was pretty cool.So one of our friends, Susan Hendricks, has been here representing a certain sort of well-known sort of true crime, I guess, venture, right?Yeah.And then today, the leader of that venture came.
So Nancy Grace was here today in Delphi.We met her.She's super nice, stood in line with her.And she came and I think observed some of the morning, you know, basically swath of the court session.
And so, yeah, this is something where I think, you know, people are all around the country are interested in different sort of folks want to kind of come see and see for themselves.How are things going?What's going on?
So it was really nice to meet her.Very nice lady.And it was super cool. Also, there was a spider in front of the court.
I'm sorry I need to say this because I feel like I come across really weirdly most of the time But today I was probably acting extra weird because every time I was talking to someone there was literally like a spider coming down on its spiderweb You saw that right?
And then I'm like, I'm like flinching in fear and they're probably like what the hell's wrong with her?But it was yeah, that was a whole thing that was going on That was a crisis in the morning for me because it's like I don't want to hurt it
That's its house, you know, I'm not gonna mess with it, but I don't wanna deal with this either.
You've all seen the sexist things from like the 50s and 60s where like a woman would see a mouse and hop up on a chair, that's Anya with spiders, and it's grim reality.So with that said, should we start off with the first witness of the day?
Let's do it.So it was Dr. Monica Walla.
She was presented for the prosecution by Stacey Diener, who did, I thought, a great job with this witness.She's a member of the prosecution team.And Dr. Monica Walla, of course, is a clinical psychologist.
We've heard from her before in the pre-trial hearing. And I suspect that this probably won't be the last time we hear from her in this case.
She worked at IDOC, the Indiana Department of Corrections, although she was actually employed by a contracting company called Centurion.And she was assigned primarily to do her services at Westville.
And she did indeed provide services there to Richard Allen.
Absolutely. And, you know, some some background with her, you know, some of this is going to be very repetitive.So we might kind of breeze through some of it.A lot of it might be repetitive to the.
She was was she called she wasn't called at the three day. No, she was three-day hearing, three-day hearing mini trial.She came up a lot, right?And she was on the stand for a long time.
And what we learned was that she was treating Richard Allen, as Kevin said, and that she went over a lot of his sort of
Mental health episodes and issues and it was sort of interesting because, you know, Brad Rosie, the lead defense attorney, sort of built her up as almost like this woman was taking care of Richard Allen and sort of was an ally to him and was able to see how much he was struggling.
And isn't that an indication that he might have had some issues with his sanity and maybe he was driven insane by the prison. But then in the second half of it, he breaks her down.
And this is the earlier hearing.
Yeah.This is the earlier hearing today.I think we have even more of a picture of why that was.
Because she heard a very detailed confession from him.
Yes.We're just a little bit ahead of ourselves.
Yeah.But I'm just giving a hint.
So she treated him, and after she would treat him, she treated him in a special area called the A-POP, or the A-POD cubicle, because he was in A-POD there at Westville, where they would sit on either side of a table, but there was some sort of a wall or barrier in between them, although they could see each other.
She would take notes during her sessions with them, with handwriting, and then she would type them up later.She would enter them into kind of an electronic database.And that would be an issue discussed later.
And she said she had some concerns at some point that he was faking some of his more extreme behavior.And should we just go right to this confession?
Yeah, let's do it. So I think it started off with, quote, I killed Abby and Libby, and I'm sorry, end quote.Is that what you had?And so basically, she starts writing this down.He's watching her write this down, by the way.
He's tearful, and he said he committed the murders on his own, that he made sure both girls were dead because he didn't want them to suffer. He said his intention of this attack was sexual in nature.
So basically what he said, let's go back a little bit.He said he visited his parents on the morning of the crime.And of course his parents lived, by parents he may be talking about his stepfather, right?
Yeah, his mother and his stepfather.So Janice and Marvin Allen.
And they live in Mexico, Indiana, which is right near Peru.Very small town right outside of Peru, Indiana.As we all know, I don't need to tell you, Peru, Indiana is also the home of Keg and Klein.Maybe that's a coincidence.Maybe it's not.Who knows?
I think it's probably a coincidence at this point, but I'm sure a lot of people are wondering that.
Yes, who knows.He's invited to go out to like a lunch with the family afterwards.He declines.He goes out and instead he gets a six pack of beers.He drinks three of them.
He goes out to the trails where he sees the girls and he follows them to the bridge and somewhere during that process he says he did something with his gun and that may be where and why the bullet fell out.Is that what's in your notes?
Yes, that he didn't specify what he did, but something.And then he recognizes that at that point, maybe it set in motion whatever caused a bullet to fall out of his gun or to be, you know, ejected from his gun.
And so he kidnaps them, his intent is to rape them, but somewhere in the process, he is disturbed by a passing vehicle.It is a white van, and it is on this road we've heard so much about.
Sometimes it's described as an access road, sometimes it's described as a long driveway, because it leads up to the residence where a man named Brad Weber lives. So a white van goes by on that road or driveway, what have you.It scares Richard Allen.
It makes him uneasy.So that's when he decides to kill them.And he cuts their throats to be sure.
He forces them across the creek first.
Yes.And then he cuts their throats to be sure they are dead.And then he covers their bodies with sticks.
Yeah, and that's it.And he's tried to live with that for all these years.
So this is potentially game changing because this is a confession which reveals, the gold standard is you want a confession that reveals details that only the killer would know.
And presumably only the killer would know that someone in a white van drove by at that particular time when Richard Allen was out there with those girls. because why would anyone else know that?
And so your mind starts thinking, if this detail about the white van can get verified, that this could be game-changing, this could be it, this could be huge.
Yes, because again, that's not something, I think if this had been something where it's like, I killed them with a sharp-bladed weapon, You know, I mean, well, I think a lot of people guessed that a long time ago.
I think anyone could possibly guess that.But when we're talking about something as specific as that, where, how would you, how would you guess that?That doesn't, you know, I mean that, yeah.So our ears perked up when we heard that for sure.
And then it also made sense about why they're going so hard at Walla.
Because this is potentially an incredibly important confession, and if it comes through Dr. Walla, then the defense has to discredit, in some fashion, Dr. Walla.
Because in their mind, Dr. Walla stands between them and potential freedom for their client.
So Dr. Walla then shared a few things that Richard Allen said in some other sessions.He said at one point, I just want to sign a confession, need to tell attorneys,
Yes, he talked about himself saying that he was both selfish and a coward.He really wanted to apologize to the victim's families.And he wished he could go back in time and change his actions.He alluded to having some sort of sex addiction.
I don't know if that was self-diagnosed or what.He said he did not think he was molested as a child, but that he did molest his sister.That was his claim. And it's hard to hear.Did he say something about maybe molesting other kids growing up?
It was hard to hear.As we said, the acoustics in this room are tough. Do you wanna talk about, he also wanted to connect with his wife and he was having some sort of difficulty doing that.
And so at one point, Dr. Wallace said that she helped arrange for Richard Allen to have that opportunity to talk to his wife over the phone.And Richard Allen requested that she stay there.
and overhear the call, and in this call, he asked his wife and family if they loved him and if they would continue to love him.He said he might not see them again, and then he said, I did not do everything I said, but I did kill Abby and Libby.
Kathy Allen, Richard Allen's wife, did not believe him, and the call soon ended. We got an account of this call earlier too.We did.But I thought it was worth mentioning again in this context along with this new information.
Yeah.He also indicated, Richard Allen did, that he was an alcoholic twice since 2011.I don't really know what that means because once you're an alcoholic, you're an alcoholic as far as I'm concerned.
Like even if you're not drinking anymore, you're not drinking anymore.
And I still consider myself an alcoholic.
Yeah, you haven't had a drink in close to five years.
So, but he said that basically when he was incapacitated by his alcoholism, he was cared for extensively by his wife, Kathy.
So we're getting a picture of a man who is very troubled, at least according to what he's conveying to, you know, he's claiming to have substance abuse issues.He's claiming to have a history of molesting others.And,
And to go back to something that was also dealt with in previous pre-trial situations, but March 21st, 2023 is the day that Richard Allen, quote, took God into his heart.
he became very into the idea of sort of, I think, redemption and embracing Christianity in order to seek forgiveness.And so what he's seeking forgiveness for, in his words, is killing Libby and Abby and wanting to make amends.
And so the Christianity and the pivot to religion, he had told, he had said, you know, throughout the investigation that his His parents didn't really go to church.His grandparents had.He wasn't particularly religious.
Religion wasn't really a comfort for him.But that all changed on that day, and it became somewhat of a preoccupation for him, it sounds like, you know, where people were remarking about this kind of sudden increase in religiosity.
And another common refrain, well, on May 11th, he says he wants to try to provide closure to the families of Abiy and Libby by apologizing to them.He said he did not know what closure would look like for him.
He did say on August 3rd, 2023, that he wants to go to heaven.He said, I need to let my wife go.
Yeah.Um, do you want to talk about like his, so he also started sleeping with his Bible.Um, did, did like, did you catch the part where she was talking about when he was confessing, like what his face looked like?
Why don't you tell us about that?
Um, it, it almost sounded like he was kind of, uh, he had a bizarre smile on his face.Also talked to about, um, some, some men, uh, some memory lapses. And she did get into some of the strange behavior that prison guards had also gotten into.
So things like drinking water out of the toilet, things like that.
She also went on the way back at one point to what Richard Adler was like when he first came into the prison.You want to talk about that?She discussed his weight and exercise with him.She would check with him about missing meals.
I think this was also something that was brought up earlier. There was a policy in place at this prison that if you missed four meals in a row, you'd get reported, you'd get in trouble or what have you.But if you missed three, it's not a big deal.
And during this time when he was occasionally not eating or what have you,
he would always make it a point to never miss more than three meals in a row, which is an indication that there's a calculating mind here and there is an intent, because he is tailoring his behavior to avoid the punishment that would come if he missed that fourth meal.
Right.And in the beginning, Dr. Walla indicated that when she was talking to him about some of his exercise and dieting, i.e.his weight loss, it seemed like a positive thing to her at first.
He was essentially saying, you know, I could I could use this as an opportunity to be more healthy, lose some weight, things like that.So in the beginning, it was something that seemed very much within his control that he was doing on purpose.
and sort of taking that time to do it.And yeah, she said when he first got to Westfield, he was very, very quiet.I think in the beginning he almost declined going on some, you know, going to some appointments with her because what did you catch?
This was almost like I didn't he didn't want to be a burden.
He felt he was a burden, at this point he wasn't even assigned a public defender yet, and she wanted to make him realize it's appropriate to seek help with mental health helpers when circumstances such as this arrives in your life.
Mental health helpers, yeah. You know, she said for a time she felt that his, um, even though some of his behavior was bizarre, his, his anxiety and depression seemed to improve at times.Yeah.Um, one pattern, you can go first.
Well, one pattern that kind of came up in the, when, when they were talking to the Westville prison guards, but came up certainly here that, um, you know, I'm sure you can imagine quite a response was the idea that Alan's behavior
could be somehow at times seemingly linked to observers in their minds to things like him getting discovery materials or his attorneys coming to visit him.
In fact, by discovery materials, you mean papers somehow related to the prosecution or defense of his case, like police reports, things of that nature.
Yes.Basically, when there would be something with his case involved, you know, whether that was an attorney visit or a discovery, people observed his behavior would completely decline.
So he would be left, you know, in the wake of, I guess, an attorney visit, significantly worse off mentally, struggling. And, you know, basically not those those would seem to trigger him in a major way.
Speaking of the attorneys, when he was confessing, Dr. Walla told him what I think exactly his attorneys would want her to tell him, which is she says she told him to stop confessing.
It was probably not good for his interests and he should not be doing it.
Yeah.So we kind of skipped around a bunch, but my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, was a lot of the confessions that she was hearing seemed to take place between early April into May.Was that what you were getting?
So early April into May of 2023.
And it's kind of confusing because they were talking about things that happened on certain dates and then they would talk about other things that happened on certain days.And there's like kind of an overlap.
Yes. And or then sometimes I feel like they would jump back to a date that we'd maybe already gone over.So it was kind of hard to follow.
So we're going to jump back to April here in a second.But before we get too far away from what Anya was saying about discovery, I think for a long time there's been a question because we've all heard about these suicide companions.
These are people who were assigned to stand outside the cell of Richard Allen and basically watch him 24 7 to make sure he didn't kill himself. because he was exhibiting a lot of odd behavior.So that's what they were doing.
And originally, the suicide companions were fellow confinees at the prison.And then at some point, it switched and they began using prison guards instead.And for a lot of people, there's been a big question, why did they make that switch?
And Dr. Walla did provide an answer to that question.
She said that once Richard Allen started receiving these discovery materials, the warden became concerned that if he's looking at them in the cell, it's possible that some of the inmates might see some stuff in there and start spreading information about it throughout the prison.
And so he made the decision at that point to switch it from inmates to prison guards.
That's absolutely right, yeah.
On April 12th, Richard Allen was masturbating and clapping on the other side of his prison door, and he did not stop even though he knew Dr. Walla was present and watching him.
Yep.Kind of goes back to some of the masturbation talk from the previous episode where that seems to be something he's displaying a lot.
What are some of the other odd things in here that you feel are worth mentioning?
Talked on May 2nd.They talked about tangential things versus focused conversations.Tangential is when you may be jumping around a lot.And then in that instance, he talked about he killed Abby and Libby, and then I will kill everyone talked about.
Pardon me.It talked about starting World War Three and then also asking, quote, is it OK to kill myself?And quote, he said he didn't want to die, but he was considering climbing up onto the sink.
And maybe I don't know if he finished the concept at that point, but basically the implication was throwing himself off. And he said, quote, I killed myself by killing my entire family and best friends.I'm too much of a coward to kill myself.
So this came up again and again.
But like the idea of killing his family seemed to be somewhat metaphorical for him in terms of like destroying his family, destroying their lives by having them tied into this situation when he's saying he's guilty here.
And he also talked about eating his feces because he was afraid he would not have water. He was displaying things like not showering, not eating.
There was some discussion amongst the medical and mental health personnel there seemingly about whether he was possibly suffering from almost situational psychosis, which Walla described as possibly lasting a month before a person might return to normal.
And she indicated at times she wondered if he was faking it.
Yeah.Well, didn't they end up thinking that he didn't have situational psychosis or am I misremembering that?
That's my recollection.Yeah.
But they were considering that at one point she indicated at times that she thought he was faking it.Do you remember why or how she got into that?
I don't recall off the top of my head.
I think there was incidents where she, like she described basically a situation where he was almost like standing naked with his palm up in the room, like kind of maybe muttering or talking quietly to himself as if in prayer and she's trying to get his attention and he's not reacting at all.
So she, she walks away for a bit and then he, he, he, you know, once she's kind of going, he stops.
calls for her she comes back he starts conversing with her completely normally so it's like it's like once she was taking away the attention then when he realized he wanted something for her from her which was a conversation he drops that
He's able to turn it off.It's like the missing the meals.Missing four meals in a row would cause a problem for him, so he makes sure he never does that.So he does seem to be able to control his odd behavior.
Yeah, they said even though there was like rambling speech and behavior, it would seem to, and this is something that all the many of the prison guards also said, there seemed to be an off switch and an on switch.
And also it seemed to be calculated to if he wanted something, he would be able to kind of stop, act normally, get what he needed, and then perhaps go back.And Wallace said there was no indication that he was experiencing any sort of delusions.
sort of bizarre behavior and delusions are not the same thing.
Are you ready to move on to the cross?
Um, let me just look through my, I just want to make sure there was a lot and it was a lot of interesting stuff as far as I'm concerned.Um, but yeah, I mean he talked a lot about, um,
You took much better notes than I did this morning, and I apologize for that.
Don't apologize.Listen, it's been a rough time.So she indicated that she did not believe that he had psychotic symptoms at times.
You know, although he would say bizarre stuff like how he didn't want to miss Easter, but his communication could also be, you know, very, very clear and in normal.
I thought it was interesting they wanted to sign the confessions and, you know, kind of It's just, you really wonder what happened with some of these attorney meetings.I mean, it just kind of raises some questions for me there, if I'm being blunt.
Yeah, but it seems very clear that for many, many months, Richard Allen was indicating that he is guilty and he wants to apologize.He wants to do what he can to provide closure.Tell my attorneys I want to sign something.I want to confess.
He's doing everything he can.And meanwhile, his defense attorneys are researching their odinism theories and interviewing Todd Click.
Yeah. It's like, it's almost like he doesn't fit into his own defense at this point when you're looking back, you know, and it just, you know, I don't, I don't know.It, it does raise concerns.
Let's get into the, um, oh, and this was one thing, uh, you know, in terms of feigning symptoms, Dr. Wallace said that that's basically the same thing as faking symptoms.Um, and she said that, uh,
You know, he he would kind of have seemingly have a confusion and like almost like forgetting things one minute and then be fine the next.And she told him repeatedly to not talk about his case with anybody except his attorneys.
So that was something that she kind of tried to drill into him.Not, you know, don't talk about with me.Don't talk about with anyone here.Do it with your attorneys.I think we can get across now.
Okay, so the cross, I'll just say up top, it was done by Brad Rosey, and some of the complaints and criticisms we've made about other crosses by him certainly apply here as well.I feel this cross exam went on too long.
I feel that certainly, especially at the beginning, Rosey was far too aggressive, which does not play well to the jury.
We say that but maybe it does but I mean I don't it didn't it didn't play well to me at least
And I also wanted to say that, again, there are some things in his cross-exam that if he had focused on them and developed them, I think perhaps he could have led to some fruitful areas.
But instead, he's hopping around, he's throwing everything into the pot that he can get his hands on, and I didn't feel it was effective because some of the stuff he's talking about, frankly, is very trivial.
and it obscures potentially good points he had to make.
I thought he had some really good points in there and I kept on being like, okay, is he going to roll back to that or are we joking?We're moving on.Okay.Would have loved to learn more about that.
But before we just can I just do that because this is important and this is just before we get with the cross.I was looking for this quote.This is from Monica Waller.She talked about how when they were responding to some of the Allen's behavior.
He was medicated with Haldol. Right.And that's a I think that's pretty intense medication.But we've also been told by medical professionals that is a very short half life.So it's not like in your system for a long time necessarily.
Although he was on some sort of regimen of it.So keep that in mind.But she was talking about when they were dealing with his behavior.
It got to the point where she said, quote, it's getting to the point where it doesn't matter if he's faking or not, or not faking because he's deteriorating.
So basically the point of that is to say that at some point Westville staff felt like they needed to intervene.And it got to the point where it was like he could be malingering, he could not be malingering.Either way, he's still
banging his head against the wall lightly, but enough to the point where he's injuring himself.He's not eating or he's, you know, he's doing all this stuff with food and smearing his feces.So it's like he's having a problem.
And whether or not that is something that he can or can't control, or he's just kind of giving into some kind of intense feeling of guilt, doesn't matter.We need to do something.So I think that kind of shows you at some point, like,
Even medical staff, if they can't quite determine it, or even if they think it might be fake, they've got to do something anyway.
Exactly. So Rosie begins by saying in a faux-friendly voice, nice to see you again, Dr. Waller, because they have had a series of contentious exams.He examined her in the three-day hearing.
I believe he also took a deposition from her a few months ago.And the first thing he wanted to get in was that she's no longer working with IDOC because he thought that
You may or may not recall that it came out that she has an interest, as many of us do, I guess as all of us do, in true crime, and so she got interested in the Delphi case, including the case of Kagan Klein, and so she used her position
at the prison to access some pre-sentence reports pertaining to Kagan Klein.And so that was exposed in the hearing back in late July, early August.And so he wanted to bring it out that her job situation had changed since then.
Can I also just say that he had her read out the ones that she was interested in?I'm not going to do that.The true crime podcast and YouTube channels that she was interested in.
We can just a little bit ahead of ourselves.
I'm focusing now on the fact that she looked up this Kagan Klein information.She used her access for that.So he wanted to bring out that her employment situation had changed because of what she did.
But it appears as if her employment situation only changed in a very minor way.
Yeah.She's actually she's not she did not lose her job or at least she did not.She was not removed from the company but now works at a different facility.
Yes.And then this discussion was interrupted several times by objections from Stacey Diener, who had a lot of objections about that.And her aggressive objections really seemed to throw Rosie off his stride.
I agree.Yeah, he.Today wasn't today was not a good day for Brad Rosie.I'm just going to be blunt.I was really unimpressed.And it was a. It was a kind of a shambling performance, I felt, from him.
And it wasn't like, it wasn't like, I don't know, it wasn't like something that, I felt like he had some good points sitting right there on the table, and it's like he ignored those for everything else.
And you brought one up a moment ago.She was very interested in the Delphi case.And as a result of her interest, she followed several podcasts that are largely devoted to the case.You said you did not want to name them?
I don't want to name them.I mean, I don't, you know, but I will just say we were not on that list, which was a relief, which was a huge relief, because, you know, I was just like, Oh, please don't say murder.She please.Murder.
She'd inspired me to do this, like, please, but no, we're not on there.And then I just thought it was funny.He started off with like, I believe one of the programs is true crime.And that must have been a mistake.
I don't know.That's the genre. And he even said that she had a commute to work and she used that commute to follow social media about the case.And when all this came out that she was on all these sites, she shut all of her accounts down.
And so where I thought he was going with this.
I feel that the account of the confession was so damaging that what I thought he was going to do was suggest that, you know, he would try to suggest that the detail about the van appeared on one of these podcasts and that she somehow fed it to Richard Allen.
That's where I thought he was going with this.Is that what you thought?
Yeah, I did.But I mean, in fairness, that would be pretty, I mean, you'd have to prove that, I would imagine.
You'd have to prove that.And I certainly never heard the detail about the van mentioned publicly until today.
That's correct.That's my experience, too.
So, but that's not where he went.He then just kind of jumped to another topic.
Yeah, meandering.That's that's the word for this, meandering.
You said, oh, he started talking about how Richard Allen might have dependent personality disorder syndrome.Oh, Richard Allen, he was very fragile mentally when he arrived at Westville.He's just hopping all around.
Deener was on top of this.I mean, she was just objecting, objecting, objecting to the characterization of him as fragile.That's just this guy's opinion.Basically, at one point, I think she's like, he's not a psychologist, like talking about Rosie.
She kept on accusing Rosie of testifying himself. And at one point he kind of like, like, stands up and is like, well, I'm just trying to educate the jury.And it's like, oh, my God.
That's why the good Lord invented experts.
Judge, Judge Gull actually looked really bemused a few times, like she seemed irritated a few times, but other times she's just looking at him like, what?But yeah, that was she was.Cece Diener was like, just bang, bang, bang.
I should also say that Walla did say that she disclosed her strong interest in true crime.
I mean, that came out in redirect, right?
No, it came up first here.She mentioned that she came.It came up because they redirected.She mentioned it here.
She said her bosses did know that she was very into true crime and that they did not raise any objections to her taking on Allen as a patient.
And then as they hopped around, he said, oh, there was no cell more secure in Westville than the one Richard Allen was in, which he obviously was not popular with other prisoners because of the nature of his offense.So it makes sense.
The nature of his alleged offense.So it would make sense to protect him and put him in that more secure cell.But Rosie said, well, why not just put him in the infirmary? I guess I'd be more comfortable.
She noted that that was for medical issues, not as much mental health issues.
They did a strange dance, and I probably mentioned this before, where on the one hand they say, oh, Richard Allen is in solitary all by himself and all protected from the rest of the prison.Isn't this terrible?
And then on the other hand, talking about how all the other people in the institution are yelling at him to kill himself and saying terrible things about him.
And if you have other prisoners saying terrible things about you and urging you to kill yourself because of the nature of your alleged offense, then it makes sense to protect you and perhaps put you in the most secure cell in the facility, because at least that way you're staying alive.
Yeah, I'm going to just be honest. Like one issue I have with the defense performance so far, you know, they'll get their own chance to present their own case and maybe things will change at that point.I don't know.
But like none of this is really tangential to the actual case.You know, I mean, I think we can all understand that prison is bad.It is a bad place to be.It's not good for anybody's mental health and and so forth.But
It doesn't it doesn't knock down what he's saying.It doesn't knock down the confession.The defense needs to knock down the confession and basically say, I mean, like, because.
Having a bad time in prison, I imagine, can really undermine many people's mental health, but it doesn't put visions of a white van in one's head at a specific time and give them a narrative about a crime that fits the evidence.So.
How are we going to address that?That's what I want to know as somebody watching this.That's what I want to know.How are we going to deal with this?Not did he have a bad time in prison if his confessions were all incredibly vague and
you know, like maybe even kind of inconclusive.Yeah, I think you could probably do something like this and just say, well, he was losing it.You know, he everyone said he did it.So he's just accepting that.
But but that's not what I really wanted them to do something to deal with the specific the specificity of that van detail.I wanted them to address that.And they failed to do so.
They danced around it.They talked about everything else in this, you know, and it's like, what? Like, what about the van?How did he know that?Why did he say that?What the heck?
I mean, I've seen people make all sorts of arguments for them online, which is all well and good, and it's certainly people's right to do that, but you have to remember, like, it's not about the posting, it's about, like, who's making the argument in court, and they're not necessarily making those same arguments, and the question is why.
So there was a lunch break and then we came back and there was more talk from, more cross from Brad Rosie.He's talking, he started ringing up the Discovery again.Oh, I thought this was interesting.And by that I mean not at all interesting.
He started talking about how, you know, when most people become prisoners, they get special orientation training. They get to go through classes, learn what prison life is like.Now that didn't happen for Richard Allen.Why is that?
So instead of dealing with the van, which we're complaining that he didn't get orientation training for prison, he even talked about how
When you're on suicide watch, you have to wear special clothes to make it more difficult for you to kill yourself or harm yourself.And that's basically a kind of a smock.At one point, Rosie referred to it as like a Fred Flintstone type of smock.
And so he started talking about how, you know, it even takes time to learn how to wear this smock and get used to it.Why didn't he get any information about that?And I'm just like, talk about the van.Talk about that van detail.
The longer they talk around that and the longer they bring up issues about, oh, he doesn't, he wasn't.
He had a pretty bad time at Westfield.It's like, yeah, it's prison.I mean, like what?
Like, and if all they if all the prosecution had were like him a couple of times saying I killed them, then I would understand why they were doing this, because emphasizing the negative conditions could speak to somebody who would confess to something they didn't do or like maybe it brings it into psychosis that leads to this situation.
But all we're hearing is about how he's malingering and feigning symptoms and then he's confessing with specificity.So what the heck?
Well, but you know, Anya, he didn't learn how to wear this smock.
And then they spare me.And then they start talking.He's raising his cross exam.Oh, when you have these sessions, there is kind of like a barrier between you.
And, you know, normal therapy involves a much more comfortable setting than this prison type thing, doesn't it?Yes, of course, because you're not in prison.
And in prison, there are security concerns that don't exist if you just go see your therapist in his or her office. I apologize.
You don't, you don't want to, you don't want to have, you know, there's no like succulents and a nice view of a river.I mean like, yeah, I guess it's just like, I felt like more like a, like a, I don't, I don't even know.
It was like, and he'd bring up these things like we mentioned, like where it's like getting to the credibility of, of the confession is like, yes.Okay.More on this, please tell us the version of this that doesn't sound like what it sounds like.
And then he just flit off to some inane, you know, just whining, frankly.I mean, like, I just, I don't, I don't understand it.Like, it wasn't like he was, he was not, like, ready to delve into some of that.
And can we just talk about some of his behavior in terms of the, like, what he was trying to do, seemingly, that was, like, completely inappropriate?
Before we do that, can I just include, speaking of interesting behavior, around this point, I noticed that Richard Allen said something to Andy Baldwin, his defense attorney, and Andrew Baldwin cracks up.He is just hysterical.
This guy is the second coming of Henny Youngman.Yeah, that's where I went, Henny Youngman. But he went like he was like Jimmy and J.J.Walker.He laughed so hard it was like he was laughing at someone who was funny.
He was just in hysterics like it was his favorite comedian.I just thought not not hysterics.
Well, he was he was he was laughing very hard.He was like he was laughing, shaking and stuff.
He was like shaking with laughter.And it reminded me of how during voir dire, they all made a point of saying the defense attorneys, oh, by the way, don't judge us for laughing at the defense table.
Maybe they figured out if Richard Allen thinks he's funny, he'll stop confessing or something.
So I interrupted you.Go with what you were saying.
Well, I just wanted to ask you, because you have more legal insight, obviously.You mentioned that.
So at one point, there was a big back and forth between Diener, Rosie and Gull, where Rosie was trying to get Walla to, I guess, read things from Allen into the record, read them aloud.
Yeah, I'll talk about this. So first of all, this began by having her discuss things where, yeah, sure, in like 2022, or sure, in early 2023, he's confessing, but look, weren't there times in 2022 when he said he was innocent?Makes you think.
Makes you think.It's not like anyone can lie.
And then obviously he lied because he either lied when he said he was innocent or he lied when he said he was guilty.
There was some lie going on here because he's saying two completely different things.
So the one thing we can we can take from this is Richard Allen is a liar.So then she then Brad Rosie was trying to get her to read quotes from Richard Allen in which Richard Allen is complaining about alleged conditions in his cell.
And Stacey Diener objected because she said, basically, what you're doing is you're having him introduce statements from the defendant without cross-examining the defendant and acting as if these statements are true.
Yeah.And, you know, I mean, if they wanted to have Richard Allen's perspective, they could always call him as a witness, right?
He's sitting right there.And if he starts singing, what is it?Mamas, don't let your babies become cowboys.We'll all run out of the room, I presume.But I mean, he has a voice and he can talk.
Yes.And then there are like technical ways you can get that information out there without basically having the witness.Without having the witness recite things from the defendant, which allows the defendant to
Do you have his words out there without being crossed or anything?
I wonder, like, is that considered like a poor form or is that considered just like a dumb mistake?Or how would you read that?
Defense attorneys try anything.Defense attorneys are going to defense attorney.
Yeah.Well, they seem to be doing a lot of that.But.
So then Judge Gull, you know, so it was decided that if he wants to talk about conditions in the prison, he can do that in ways that don't involve having Richard Allen basically offer testimony.
I mean, he's sitting right there.He's telling jokes.I would be very interested.I mean, like, I would be very interested in hearing what he had to say, but he's not going to testify.
And that's very clear from voir dire on where they said, you know, hey, would you be mad if he didn't testify?So, I mean, it's pretty clear that they're not going to offer him up.It would be too much of a risk.
Is there anything else you wanted to talk about about this?
Oh, another thing he brought up, and he also brought this up in the earlier hearing, so Dr. Walla, as I mentioned earlier, she would have her session or her interview or what have you with Richard Allen, and during the course of that she would take handwritten notes.
And then she would go back to her office, not too long afterwards, usually on the same day, and she would take her notes and she would essentially type them into electronic form, which he would save them on a secure system.
And after she did that, she would destroy via shredding her original notes.And Rosie was very upset about that.He suggested this violated all sorts of procedures.
and that these notes she destroyed were actually the best evidence of whatever Richard Allen said, and she maintained, well, I typed them all up, and she felt, and Stacey Diener helped her bring this across in Redirect, she felt that doing this was actually more secure, because if you have all this stuff on paper,
it is easier to access than a secure database.And for privacy and security reasons, she felt that was the thing to do.
And then Richard Allen says, oh, you said you destroyed these notes for privacy reasons, but Richard Allen has no privacy with cameras in his cell. So that's kind of the tone.
Prison sucks, you know, and prison sucks.I imagine it would be very difficult for anyone to endure those conditions.It's just it ultimately it's we're beyond where that is an excuse for any of this.
And the obvious response is the privacy concerns and the balance of interest for prison and for a person who is a target in prison, and for a person who is behaving bizarrely and talking frequently about harming himself in prison,
The privacy concerns there are very different than the privacy concerns for how a doctor handles private notes in her office.
They're completely different, and an attempt to compare them just seems like a silly attempt at a cheap shot that is misfired.
It's a facetious argument.It just is.
It makes me feel like they're not serious, and we haven't talked about it, but they keep on filing to bring odinism back into it, and that's like another sign to me that they're desperate and they're not terribly serious, because odinism was completely discredited at that three-day hearing over the summer.
Odinism, like, one of their main witnesses is currently facing charges around forgery.I mean, what are they doing?I mean, figure something out. They've had, they've had, we went on this year long odyssey of Odinism and it got us absolutely nowhere.
They had nothing.That three day hearing is a mess.And, and now we're back and they're like, Oh, this isn't going well, Odinism again.It's like, you know, I.
This is what happens when you onboard a bunch of online people onto your friggin team and they're telling you, yeah, people love the Odinism stuff.People love the conspiracy.You know, at the end of the day, people like things that make sense.
And what makes sense in this case for a defense is something that is focusing on actual mistakes by law enforcement and the prosecution. that you can pull out, make a big deal of, talk about how circumstantial evidence, blah, blah, blah.
I mean, you can, you can, you can hammer them on a bunch of stuff.And I think you would have better luck doing that than whatever the heck they hope to do with Odinism at this point.
Or maybe you wouldn't have better luck doing it.Maybe it is a situation where, have you ever been in the situation where you're hungry and you wanna make something and you don't have a lot of ingredients?
And so you have to throw something together from whatever you happen to find in the pantry.And because of the evidence in this case, and because of Richard Allen talking too much, they don't have that many ingredients.
So they, for all we know, they may just be trying to cook up the best thing they can with the little ingredients they have.
One thing that came up a lot was the issue of Haldol.I think I mentioned that earlier.
That's a medication that Alan was forcibly injected with a number of times after, you know, kind of getting that involuntary medication after his behavior really deteriorated.
And that was something where they believe there was some sort of hearing for that at first.But then it was like he was on a regimen.So they kind of kept giving it to him at times.
Again, one thing we've heard is that this has a pretty short shelf of half life.You don't really It's not necessarily in your system as much.
So I think there's a perception where people are always being pumped full of drugs, but it seems like the reality is a little bit more complicated, although it is very intensive.
drug and obviously any situation where someone's being forcibly medicated obviously is something that's going to be contentious.It's that came up but again like I would have really loved to like learn more about that through the cross.
Didn't really feel like we kind of got as much into that.
And then, at one point, this is kind of amusing a little bit at the end, Rosie started grilling Walla about what she knew about what was in the Discovery and what she, and I thought he was going into like, maybe he saw stuff in Discovery.
Like, hypothetically, if the van were like a big part of the Discovery he got, you could argue, okay, well, maybe he got it from that, you know what I mean?
That's where I thought he was.
That's where I thought he was going.I was like, OK, here we go.Like, this is the grand finale.The van was the cover sheet of the discovery he got.
No, it was actually just a really defensive kind of like, quote, any conclusions you you draw about the input of the import of the meetings with the attorneys is speculation. So basically, like, we didn't drive Alan crazy.
I mean, like, what do you make of this?I'm going to just be completely blunt here.I've had concerns about how how a lot of this has gone down with the defense team.
Because the more we learn about what Richard Allen was going through at this point, the more I wonder, is he being listened to and are his concerns and wishes actually being taken into account by the people who are supposed to be representing his needs and wishes, not their own?
You know, a big fancy trial that everyone's paying attention to is very exciting. But ultimately, if he's a guy who is telling them one thing and then telling Walla the other thing, then there's no problem there.
Because maybe he's not telling them how he's feeling, or maybe he's feeling different things in different moments and just kind of going with whatever.But if he's being dragged forcibly into a trial, then that's a problem.
I would hope that at some point during all of this, the judge or someone talked to Richard Allen on the record and made sure he understood the process and what was happening and made sure he wanted to go forward. I would hope that's happened.
I know we had at least one court session that was closed to the public.Maybe it happened there.I don't know.I don't know if it's happened at all.But I very much hope that it's happened.
Because he's not a pawn that people can just do whatever with to make themselves feel better or get a shiny feather in their caps.He's a person whose rights also include saying, I don't want to do any of this.I want to do this instead.
Now, I would argue that I think few decent defense attorneys would be like, yeah, just fall on the sword and confess to everything and don't make a deal.You know, but there are but there are different concessions that can be made.
And if someone I don't know, it just this this doesn't clear up anything in my mind about this.And it makes me concerned because, again, I've had those concerns, but I've kind of been willing to say, well, we don't know yet.
maybe he was all over the place.And that still seems possible to me.
But the fact that there seems to be some clear pattern of him experiencing emotional breakdowns after dealing with his defense team visiting him, I would love for that to be accounted for at some point.Maybe it's not their fault.Maybe he's just
Again, all over the place.I'm not saying that it must be malfeasance on their parts.I'm not saying that they pushed him into this.I'm just saying I have concerns around that.Because again, we're hearing again and again about this pattern.
Yeah, yeah, it's reasonable.Obviously, we've complained about how difficult the trial has been for us.
Obviously, it's far, far, far, far, far exponentially harder on the families and the people who were lucky enough to have a personal relationship with these girls.It's incredibly difficult for them, I imagine.It's difficult for the community.
And if there was a way that this trial had to happen and that path was not taken, that would be bad.
Well, I mean, ultimately, it's not about like anyone has a right to a trial, but ultimately, it's not about if it's difficult for other people.Ultimately, it's about what does the defendant want.
And it's not clear that he wanted this.
Reading this makes me very concerned.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.So if he didn't want it and everybody's having to go through this for nothing.
If he got bullied into this in any capacity, either by his family or by these defense attorneys, then this whole thing is more of a farce than it.Right.I mean, again, I don't.And again, Brad Rosie sort of defensively throwing that out there.
I don't know.Yeah, yeah, it is speculation on her part, but everyone seems to be saying that you know, attorney visit, things get worse, attorney visit, things get worse.So what's going on there?
Seems like engaging with any of this case at all has been very bad for Alan.
Do you want to talk about jury questions at all?
Sure.Um, let's see.Let's flip back to that.Um, They asked could you almost could the temporary diagnosis of the temporary psychosis almost could that reappear after somebody returned to normal? I did not hear her answer.And so that's unfortunate.
She one thing that a lot of the witnesses have a problem with is Looking at the jury.
It's better for hearing for everyone if they look at the jury But she kept looking at the judge who's reading the jury questions which again is a normal thing in Indiana if you've never heard of that I think a lot of states don't do that.
Another one asked, was it expected or normal for psychotic disorder to appear repeatedly?And she said, I'd say no.And then somebody asked, would Richard Allen know about the sort of four meal refusals becoming a problem?
And she said, yes, I remember specifically talking to him about it. Another one asked, I didn't understand this question, but like the relevance to grave disability about medication, like was he being medicated because he had some grave disability?
And she said that he was medically, he was forcibly medicated for other reasons, notably harm to self, harm to property, and not being able to take care of himself anymore.
The last question was, when Richard Allen arrived at Westville, was he on medication?Was he taking medication?And the answer was, he was.He was taking Prozac.
How did you think she did as a witness?
She's all right.She's very calm.Obviously, some troubling things about some of the privacy concerns that were raised.But generally, I thought she did a good job being calm in the face of Rosie's aggression.
It's hard to judge because if I got into a boxing ring with Muhammad Ali and he, for some reason, is just wildly throwing punches and none of them really seem to hit me, have I done well or has he failed?
What a bizarre image. Sorry, I'm like losing my mind.
I didn't really think the van story was crucial.The detail about the van.But then I don't think this cross really hurt her and I don't think it really helped them.I just thought it was really surprisingly ineffectual.
So this next witness, before we talk about him, I wanna say that if you've been following our coverage or if you just generally have watched trials in the past, you know that in the real world, trials are not as interesting or as dramatic as they are on television or in the movies.
But this next witness, very brief, but it almost felt like something out of a movie.
Okay, this next one, I was riveted.At first, I was like, my first thought was, why are they bringing back Steve Mullen?
Steve Mullen, spoiler alert, is the witness.And they bring him back in response almost to an earlier juror question because he had talked about looking at the Hoosier Harvest store video, which showed some traffic.
going to or near the trails, and he indicated, well, we found on this video a black 2016 Ford Focus, and we believe that was Richard Allen's car, because it has some distinctive rims and other things.
And the juror said, well, did you search BMV records to see how many other black 2016 Ford Focuses were registered in the area?And he hadn't. So now he did.
He searched for black 2016 Ford Focuses registered in Carroll County and the surrounding counties as of the fall of 2017.He got back 31 entries covering the years 2016 and 2017.
But because it covered two years, there were some duplications on the document.And once you removed the duplications, the 31 entries became 18.
And so he then narrowed it to just focus on black 2016 Ford Focuses SE, which is the same type of car as Richard Allen has.And then the list shrunk to eight.
And of those eight, only one was registered in Carroll County, and that was the car belonging to one Richard Allen.
I wrote down while this was going on, suspense.And then I think I looked meaningfully at you because it felt like there's no way they're bringing this up because they found like 500 cars, obviously, like they had to have gotten.
I'm like, I know they got it.I know they somehow boiled this down to one.
So this is another argument for it being Richard Allen's vehicle on that video.Cross-examination by Jennifer Roget.
ineffective, but I don't blame her because she looked blindsided and sounded blindsided.At one point, she approached the bench, comes back with her kind of eyebrows raised, does not look happy.
And she indicates, well, people who are not from the area might visit the bridge, too.And you don't see a license plate.And how can we really be sure that it is a Ford Focus SE?And Mullen conceded that you could not see the SE on the back of the car.
But this, yeah.And I think also the idea that they're kind of looking into this on behalf of a juror, where the jurors want to know about it and it's letting the jurors know like, hey, we're hearing you and we're- We're being responsive.
We're being responsive.We're kind of putting it together for you.I thought it was very powerful.I thought it was a real masterstroke by McClelland.Cause it just kind of, I thought it was some really good lawyering.
I mean, it was, it was also good theater.
It was very good theater.It felt like what the kids call a mic drop moment.Yeah.Except there was still another witness to come.
Yeah.Oh my God.Yeah.This day was just jam packed.And of course, I feel like by the end of the day, people aren't even paying attention anymore.It's just like, this is a big deal.
So this witness was Brad Weber, and he is the person, we've talked a lot about this either long driveway or access road near the crime scene, this access road that leads to the residence of one Brad Weber.
And of course, you will remember that earlier in the day, we heard that Richard Allen said he was in the vicinity of this access road in the process of preparing to rape Abby and Libby when he saw a white van go by and it startled him.
And so instead of raping them, he murdered them. So Brad Weber comes on the stand and he says in February of 2017 he worked at Subaru, the first shift.Typically that was 6 a.m.to 2.30 p.m.
They got out the old work records and show that on February 13th, 2017, he actually clocked in at 5.41 a.m.and he clocked out at 2.02 p.m.
He said it usually took him 20 to 25 minutes to drive home, and they showed him a picture he ID'd of the white van he owned and drove in 2017.
And so if he clocks out at 2.02 and it takes him 20 to 25 minutes to drive home, that has him driving his white van
down the access road just in time for Richard Allen, by his own account, to see it while he's in the process of terrorizing the two girls.So this would seem to confirm the story that he told Dr. Walla.
It confirms, it seems to confirm a detail that only the killer would know. So it seemed to be really, really significant.And so then it fell on Andrew Baldwin to do the cross exam.
And the first thing he said was, well, well, well, well, Bert, you were out of town the week before.And, uh, McNeil and objects did and said it was outside the scope of the cross exam.Uh, there was a site, there was a sidebar.
Oh, yeah, there's a sidebar.And then they came back with Baldwin looking not so happy.
He looked very, very upset.
And he said, you did not drive straight home from work.And Weber said, that's not correct.And he said, well, you went to work on ATM machines.And Weber said, that's not correct.He got very, very animated.Yes.
And he said, I looked at those ATMs earlier in the day.
And Baldwin is like, I'm done.And he goes over and he gives Weber a subpoena.And looking very, very angry, he goes and sits down.So he did not, I don't know what the devil he was trying to suggest with Weber being out of town the week before.
Maybe he was at an Odinus convention.
But he did not touch, he did not injure or impugn in any way the story Weber told about driving a white van near the crime scene at a time Richard Allen says he was committing the crime and a time Richard Allen says he saw the van.
And this is a detail that has not been published before.So he did not touch that at all.
So again, the scenario now has been outlined by the state is that Richard Allen abducts the girls and forces them down the hill.They end up on this access road. before he can carry out his plan to, oh, let's also mention this.
One thing that was interesting is in the Walla confession, wasn't it mentioned that he thought they were older?He basically thought they might be older than they actually were when he started following them.
And then estimated that, you know, as he was following them, I guess, could be anywhere from 11 to 19.But he didn't care either way.Either way, he abducted them, then forced them down the hill, was preparing to sexually assault them.
When that is interrupted by the appearance of a white van, he panics, forces them across the creek where he slaughters them. And that is what he makes sure they are dead.He puts sticks on them and then flees the area.
So that is the new sort of, I guess, breakdown of the state as far as its theory of the case.And that is very much bolstered by this white van situation.This is something that How would you know that?
How would you possibly know that?Unless you were there doing what you said you were doing.
So it's going to be up to the defense to come back and knock the van down, I guess.
Obviously, they subpoenaed Weber, so he'll probably be a part of their case.
I imagine.It's hard to know at this point. I don't think Odinism is coming back in, by the way.I mean, they've claimed the door has been opened, but I think it's a weak argument from what I saw from those filings.
Keep in mind, too, that according to the defense theory, the girls were taken down the hill, possibly by someone who wasn't even bridge guy.But they're taken down the hill, and then they're put into another vehicle and then driven somewhere else.
And if we accept the Weber story, It's difficult to imagine another vehicle being there.So you either have to try to suggest that Weber was involved or there seems to be absolutely no evidence for that.
Also, he talked to a policeman that night, that that evening, as we heard testified to earlier.And he was not sweaty.He was not covered in blood.
And this is at a time where the abduction, according to the defense, would have been very much on because they're not killed until four thirty in their minds.So, I mean, that doesn't make any sense.
They need. If this Weber testimony stands, then it, in conjunction with the Dr. Walla testimony, would be incredibly difficult for this defense team to overcome, in my mind.This may turn out to be an absolutely crucial day in this trial.
I'm just going to say this, you know, it's it's just the more we hear, the more I'm like, are they defending Richard Allen or the defending bridge guy?
Because sometimes it feels like, you know, what I see with the talking points that could put out there, but what I also see with them doing in court, there's there's an element of like, well, who knows a bridge guy was even involved.
You know, we have a video of him basically chasing these two girls down a bridge.But, you know, maybe that was just totally innocuous. and someone else did it.That bridge guy didn't notice and never reported.So it's interesting.
And now I can understand why that is because the more they can kind of OK, well, maybe he's bridge guy, but but there was a there was a there was a murderer truck that abducted them.You know, that that's what they are trying to do at this point.
And it just underscores the idea that when when this is going on and when you have this kind of confession in the mix, I think you're going to need something a lot better than some half-baked theory.I think you're going to need. I don't know.
I don't know if what we've heard so far is making the cut, but maybe they'll be able to elaborate and kind of prove us all wrong.Who knows?
All right.Well, thank you guys for listening.We really appreciate it.And we'll be back with more coverage and we'll see sort of what happens, I guess.
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Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people, overcoming tragedy, well-being, like he does it all. This is a show for you.
He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space, just interesting people with interesting life experiences.
And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer, where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward.
I would liken it to like you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise, because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.
On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.He's been a really good friend to us.And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want.It's a really terrific show.
We really recommend it highly.
Yeah, I think our audience will like it.And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.He's been on our show a couple times.We've been on his show.He's a terrific guest.
I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always am like, oh yeah, I remember when Jason said this.That really resonated.I do quote him in conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different
complicated she quotes them to me all the time i do i'm like remember when jason said this that was so right so i mean i think if we're doing that i think and you like us you you i think you should give it a shot give it a try i think you'll really enjoy it and again he does a range of different topics but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion of overcoming suffering of dealing with suffering of mental health uh wellness things like that there's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that i think we find very nice and
We work on a lot of stories that can be very tough and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it.
But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime, I think this is kind of the life affirming stuff that can be nice to listen to in a podcast.
It's compassionate, it's affirming, but I also want to emphasize it's smart.Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person.This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show.I think you'll all really enjoy it.
Yeah, and he's got a great community that he's building.So we're really excited to be a part of that.We're fans of the show.We love it.And we would strongly encourage you all to just check it out.Download some episodes, listen.
I think you'll understand what we're talking about once you do.But anyways, you can listen to The Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.
Wherever you listen to podcasts.Very easy to find.
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