Content warning, this episode contains discussion of the brutal murder of two young girls, as well as topics like mental health issues and suicide.
Well, quite a lot happened today at the trial of Richard Allen, so let's not waste any time and get right to it.
Let's do it.My name is Anya Kane.I'm a journalist.
And I'm Kevin Greenlee.I'm an attorney.
And this is The Murder Sheet.
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.We're The Murder Sheet.
And this is The Delphi Murders.The trial of Richard Allen on trial.Day 10.The voice of Richard Allen. Well, let me apologize for that traffic accident of a title drop.I don't know what happened.This is why you write things down, I guess.
Yes.I was gonna say, is Anya approved?We're not editing these Delphi trial episodes because we want to get them out to you as quickly as possible.So they're very, very rough.
Yeah, but let me just say, if you're ever wondering why is there kind of a delay between the music, it's because I'm pressing a button and sometimes I forget.So that's what's going on here.Now you know.
Yeah, Anya and technology, we're trying out something new and we're doing it right at the start of these Delphi trial episodes.
We're just like the prosecution in this case with their big TV, except we're with a mixer that we've had for years and just only started to really use in full.So we're living life on the fly.
But I just had some big talk about how we were going to get right to it.
So the first thing that happened today, this morning, was that they played... Wait, we need to thank some people first.Oh, that's right.
Gosh, you were just about to breeze through and insult everybody.
I just wanted to get past that awful thing you did.
Well, we want to thank our wonderful Murder Sheet life saver slash line saver, Chris Lynn Swinford.Thank you so much, Chris Lynn.We really, really appreciate you.Yeah.Bless you.
We just are eternally grateful for you and all the folks who are helping us do this.It really is keeping us sane.
We literally could not do this without these line sitters.Yeah. because the situation there is getting worse and worse in terms of people are starting to line up earlier and earlier.
And the court let out late today, and when it let out, there were already people lining up for the next day.And so literally, if we wanted, if not for the line-sitters,
we would literally have to leave the court and just go from a hearing to the line and then to another hearing.
Yeah, we'd have to sneak up to the court attic and set up shop up there.
No one is suggesting that.
No one wants that, least of all us.
So the prosecution today played the recordings of interviews that Richard Allen gave, I believe, on October 13th and October 26th of 2022.Before we discuss the content,
of these interviews, I think the question everybody has is, this is basically the first time we've gotten to really hear Richard Allen's voice in an extended format.
And so the question I imagine that is on top of everyone's minds is, does he sound like Bridge Guy?
I'd like to lay down some some nuance before we discuss this because I think that's important.This is obviously just impressions from two people who are probably somewhat still sleep deprived.And, you know,
Like, I just, I guess I'm just like, maybe like don't necessarily put a lot of weight on what our initial impressions are.
And I'll go even further than that.My understanding is that the FBI, who are the experts, say you can't really do a voice analysis unless you have a minimum number of words.
I forget what that minimum number of words is, but it is far below guys down the hill.
I think it's like 20 or 25, so yeah.
So this is all very, very subjective.And I'm also going to mention something else, which is going to muddy the waters even further.
So one of these interviews was recorded at the Carroll County Sheriff's Office, I believe, and the other was recorded at an Indiana State Police post in Lafayette, Indiana. So there's different recording equipment.
I don't know if that played a role here, but to my ear, there was a difference in the vocal quality of Richard Allen's voice between these two different recordings.Was that your impression?
I strongly suspect, and yes, absolutely.And I strongly suspect that that is due to the recording equipment.So, and then of course we have Libby's phone, which captured audio from Bridge Guy saying, guys down the hill, but
that also is, you know, not very high quality audio.So we're comparing different things.We're giving you our impressions because we know that we're going to get asked about this.But keep in mind all of that as you consider it.
And maybe once some of the exhibits are released to the public at some point, you know, I would imagine people can possibly make that determination for themselves.
So with all of those disclaimers out of the way, Anya, what do you think?You go first.
I thought it sounded a lot like Bridge Guy. That was my impression, especially the Carroll County recording, which was interesting because that was the premier recording.
There were times where I was sitting there like, oh, my God, like, get him to say guys down the hill, like, just like, you know, it was like.
His voice is a little bit hard to pin down for me because it, I felt like, and I don't know, like he, he kind of, it was, it was sometimes higher than you think.It was sometimes kind of go down low and gravelly.
It really kind of felt like it ran the gamut at times, but there was just something, there was something of a familiarity there with the guys down the hill.
Yeah, I agree.I felt the Carroll County recording sounded an awful lot like Bridge Guy.I thought the Lafayette, Indiana State Police recording, not so much.
Less so for sure.But the first one, I It was, I mean, at times it was kind of remarkable.Certainly for me, there have been a lot of, we've been sent a lot of links and a lot of things where it's like, do you think this guy sounds like Bridge Guy?
And for me, this is the one that comes to mind as being what I felt was the closest. Again, that's just my analysis.I imagine a lot of people do sound like Bridge Guy.You know, I mean, I'm sure we've all heard someone with that similar tone cadence.
And again, it's hard to know with such a small sample.But from what I heard, especially in that first one, certainly nothing disqualifying.And in fact, I thought there was a lot of similarity there.
The other thing I want to mention before we start discussing the content of these interviews is that But I suppose the reason we didn't get to hear them on Saturday is because it was decided that they needed to be redacted.
And these edits, quite frankly, were not seamless.They were not particularly good edits.
You know, last night when we were recording our podcast episode and we, like, stopped in the middle of it and had this crude edit so we could go out and take care of the line situation, that was a lot smoother than some of these edits.
But so I imagine the question on your mind then would be, well, what on earth would they have taken out?
Of these tapes of Richard Allen being interviewed, you're saying?
Yes.What would they have taken out of these Richard Allen interview tapes?And Judge Gold said to the jury, she said, well, we just took some things out that don't have anything to do with anything at all.We just don't want to waste your time.
So don't worry about it.Don't worry your pretty little heads about it.
They're all chatting about something totally innocuous.
Let's speculate.I think one thing to keep in mind is we all remember that there was some motion in Lemonade's file, which basically, as a recap, means that there are certain topics that are off limits to be mentioned in the trial.
And I would be shocked if either one of these interviews, certainly the first one was the one where they were asking more of a variety of questions.I would be shocked If, for instance, they did not mention, oh, you were in Peru, you know the climbs.
Oh, yeah.I mean, yeah, I would imagine they were.
Yeah.If they did mention that, that's something that would have been cut out.
Once you recognize that the clients were front and center for this investigation for so long and at the start of this investigation into Richard Allen, a lot of things make sense, such as, frankly, Nick McClellan, the Carroll County prosecutor's reluctance to release the probable cause affidavit on Allen and things like suddenly these random cuts and
you know, using the tentacles and like they were looking at possibly a group doing this.And then I think that shifted as they dug into Alan more and got more evidence on him.So I think you're absolutely right about the clients.
And there's also other things that would be really problematic if they came up in front of the jury.
One thing in particular is we've talked to a variety of police officers who tell us one thing they like to ask people in these situations is to take a polygraph.
And of course, a polygraph is not admissible in court, but at least some of the detectives we've talked to have indicated to us that to them it means something if a person is willing to take it.
So I would not be surprised if it turns out that they asked Richard Allen to take a polygraph and presumably he would have refused.And that's, it's not admissible, so the jury shouldn't hear that.
Absolutely.So it's not something that he should be penalized for in front of a jury, because, I mean, some people would jump to the conclusion of like, well, if you have nothing to hide, why would you not want to take a polygraph?
But that shouldn't be influencing the jury either way.It's not admissible.It's not fair.Also, polygraphs are imperfect.You can flunk a polygraph and be innocent.
I'm sure you could probably pass a polygraph and be just cool as a cucumber and maybe do be doing something bad.So they're not.
They're not something that judges or the courts want the jury to even take into consideration, even just as something that wasn't done.
Another thing they didn't show was the second interview ends in Richard Allen's arrest.
And that ends with him getting handcuffed.And that's usually not something you want the jury to see because it could create an impression. You know?
That's why Richard Allen, when he's in court, is always wearing street clothes.But what's odd is with that section, which we will get to, and I guess we did not include in our content warning profanity, so we won't use the profanity.
No, no, we can we can use profanity.Profanity warning.OK, there we go.
So you're here at the end.Judge Gold said, well, we didn't want to show you this part of the video.We want to read you what happens.And so Judge Gold, as you will hear, had to say the F word. from the bench.
I want it's been a long day.We were there until like what closest it felt like close to seven was there close to close to seven.I want to swear.Okay, so I hope no one's offended if you are.I'm sorry.
Okay, where do you want to start by talking about the Carroll County?
Yeah, Carroll County.So Carroll County is the first one up.
So the interviewees there were Steve Mullen and Tony Liggett.
And this was on October 13th, 2022.
And it opens with Richard Allen being led into this small interview room.And he's dressed all in black, isn't he?
He's dressed.Yeah, I believe so.
And Steve Mullen is there.He is one of the prosecutor's investigators.
And he, in a very informal, casual style, says, you know, just as a matter of course, anytime we talk to people about these things, just to clear things up, you know, we always want to make sure they know their rights.
And so he tries and succeeds in delivering the Miranda rights to Richard Atwin in a non-threatening way.
Yeah, very.Just like, just, hey, this is something we, hey, heads up, everybody.It's not a good sign in real life, but certainly Richard Allen did not seem alarmed.He talked about his background.
Well, first, let me say, so on the video, you see the backs of Mullen and Liggett and the camera you see from up above pointing down on Richard Allen.
That's right.Yeah, I think he was wearing a black t-shirt.Was jeans or black?I don't really know what he was wearing pants-wise.
And he has, if you remember his mugshot, he looks about like that.He has that long beard.Is it a beard or is it a goatee?I don't know the difference.And his face is quite a bit chubbier than it is now.
Yeah, he had a rounder face then. So he looks different.
So Mullen has Allen actually sign the form indicating he understands his rights. And they, and Mullen says, we know according to Dan Doolin, you were at the trails between 1.30 and 3.30.He kind of reads through Dan Doolin's notes.
And, uh, as I said, Richard Allen looks heavier.He's kind of leaning on the table a little bit.His, uh, arms are crossed.Uh, he says, oh, I, I'm in to my 50, I'm in the 50 year old club this year.So I guess he turned 50 that year.
It's all very casual and friendly.They actually joke at one point.Alan's like, yeah, I'm from Mexico.And they're like, Indiana.And he's like, yeah, I get the la la.There's a little banter going on there.He's very relaxed, I think.
He gives his name. Indicate he's had an Android phone for quite a while.He gives a couple of email addresses including the one that In court the other day.
They are they're interested in food Jack ones In court, they're there the Nick McClellan wants to enter in some Google searches associated with the food Jack a yeah still no word on that one.
I don't think yes, and and yeah, they kind of
You talked about his family.
Yeah.Talks about his family.He is a daughter and he's married to, of course, Kathy Allen for many years.
And also he talks about working at the CVS in Peru, starting out there, then moving to the one in Delphi and kind of talks a lot about being a says he was a store manager at Walmart, worked there for 10 years, kind of came back, wanted to do something different.
Doesn't really like store management anymore because it's all about spreadsheets.So he kind of gets into the retail situation a little bit and why he
left companies and switched to... You talked about his experience in the Army, the National Guard, and then they kind of start talking about what we're all interested in, which of course is the events of Monday, February 13th.
2017 and what exactly Richard Allen's story is about what he did that day.He indicates he had the day off so he went to visit his mother who lived in the Peru slash Mexico Indiana area in Miami County.
She was recovering from hip surgery at the time and he spent the morning with her.
Yes and his wife Kathy was working
And his sister then went to go to lunch with the mom.
And Richard Allen was an interest in that.So he goes to his own home.He puts a jacket on and then heads off to the trails.And at this point, he is saying that he got to the trails, in my notes it says around noon, and he walked up to the high bridge.
To, quote, watch the fish because he, quote, likes fishing. And then after that, he sat on a bench for a few minutes and then left.
And then they show him kind of an overview of the area so they could kind of pinpoint his location.And I'd say most of the questioning is done by Steve Mullen.And Mullen does a really good job with it.
He keeps it very nice and casual, wouldn't you say?
I would say so.He's very relaxed. He keeps the situation relaxed, maybe for longer than you would expect, given what's going on here, which is essentially they're interviewing him because they believe at that time that he is a suspect.
That's why they Mirandized him. And Allen himself, I think because of the relaxed environment, neither Tony Liggett, who's now the sheriff, nor Steve Mullen are being sort of the quote unquote stereotypical bad cop.They're both kind of just.
They're both being the good cop.Yeah.
And here's some free legal advice for anybody.If you get Miranda, if you get the Miranda rights and someone says you have a right to an attorney, get an attorney.
Oh, well, you would say that as an attorney, I guess.
So then there was a discussion that was referred to in court the other day where Mullen was trying to find out from Richard Allen which way he would have traveled to the trails that day.And he indicates that he would keep city.
He likes to go the trails like once a month or maybe twice a week.Sometimes he just a different variety of times.
His family have gone a lot like the more the warmer months almost.
But he says he likes to go through town.
Yeah, it typically goes through town.But he did acknowledge that he I mean, this was a big point of contention during Mullen's testimony the other day.
So, like, correct me if I'm wrong, but Mullen drills down on this and could you have ever gone a different way?Is that possible?And he my understanding was that Allen sort of indicated Yeah, maybe.Yeah, maybe.
Like, like, I and certainly pointing out one time, one time I tried it and it was kind of a pain in the butt.But indicating that, like, he knows that way and has gone that way and could feasibly have gone that way.
Then he indicated – he started talking about his conversation with Dan Doolin and Alan said, well, I obviously told my wife Kathy that I was there and she apparently told him that the law enforcement was interested in talking to people who were there.
So I believe that seems to have been what prompted him to self-report.
Yeah, absolutely.And at that point, it was kind of coming out.I mean, at that point, there had been that image released of Bridge Guy, right?
Was that released before he self-reported?
I think it was.Yeah, yeah.
And then he describes seeing the three girls on the trail?
I think there was some mention of one of them having dark hair as well. which fits Rayleigh Voorhees.I'm sorry, I know her last name is different now, but long black hair.And yeah, they, I'm trying to look. the three girls.
And then he also outlines that he was watching the stock market.He talked about having sort of an individual training account.I think the TD Ameritrade was mentioned, although I don't know if he like logged that down as his account.
And he indicated that he kind of got out of it because it was just like not really something that, you know, he basically indicated it was almost like a hobby back then. And then they asked him, after a pause, what were you wearing that day?
Well, even before that, they asked, they clarified that he went to work at CVS in 2013.Right.And that is important because, well, I don't think we knew it at the time, but he would later say he used a box cutter from CVS as a murder weapon.
Yeah, they established, yeah, that's a good point.
But yeah, yeah, yeah.They were, they talked, uh, they talked about clothes and that was about clothes.
Um, he talked about, you know, a Carhartt jacket, maybe some, a hoodie or a sweatshirt below that blue jeans.He pauses and then notes.He always kept a hat in his coat, a skull cap.
And then I had a heart attack because for some reason, even though I always don't bring my phone into court, even though you're like, I'm just not going to risk it.Even despite that, I'm always terrified that I somehow have my phone on me.
And then a phone went off in the video.
Half the people in the courtroom suddenly were panicked.
Yeah, I was one of those people for sure.
You talked about how he sometimes worked away from home when he worked in Peru.He was once in an accident because he fell asleep. He indicated that he gave the newer car to his wife.
So they have an older car and then they have the new Ford Focus, which is the vehicle the police believe he drove to the murders.He said actually his wife is the one that mostly drives that car, although he drives it occasionally.
Yeah, they went in depth on this.He talked about how his phone service is something called, I believe, Ting, and went on this kind of weird commercial about it, about how it's $40 a month for two phones.And, you know, he was really talking it up.
And this was what he believed might have been his service provider in 2017, although he also threw out their Verizon.So I don't know.They were talking about phones as well, in other words.
But this combination of talk about the clothes and the talk about the phones, it seemed to have some sort of an effect on Richard Allen.It started to dawn on him that perhaps this was more serious than he realized.
He says, I'm not going to be somebody's fall guy.
Yes.And, um, you know, and then he said basically like, please don't think I'm questioning your integrity.Um, but he, but he essentially saying like, I'm questioning your integrity.He doesn't want to be a set up to be the one to take the fall.
Um, and, and they say, well, can we search your home? You know, can we search your phone and all this other things?And he, uh, says, well, I need to check with my wife.
Yeah, he talks about getting warrants.At one point, he makes kind of an off-color joke talking about them getting warrants to search his, quote, orifices.Did you notice that?
And he starts to get upset when they talk about searching his house in particular.Like, if maybe his hackles had been raised prior to that, then that definitely upsets him.
He says, let me talk to my wife about that.And then I have him in my notes saying, Am I an angel of a person?No.I don't want you looking at every website I've visited.
And that kind of gets me even more curious about this Google search history that Nick McLeanland is trying to get entered into the court record.
Absolutely.He makes it clear like he does not want to be associated with this crime at all, which I mean, I understand, but I think few people would.
And he said at one point, quote, you want closure, you want closure for a family, end quote, but sort of indicating that that might be motivation to set somebody up as a fall guy.
He says he and his wife watch Dateline every week.So certainly some, they seem to be interested in some fashion in true crime.And then he said, my wife doesn't even know I'm here talking to people. What did you make of that?
I don't know.It was a little bit odd.It was kind of an odd aside.And then later on, it's revealed that maybe that's not entirely true.
Not that he's telling a lie, but that Kathy Allen's awareness of the situation may be greater than initially appeared.But it just seemed odd.
Talk about, I have in my notes here, I started, I was really struck by his affect and his tone.Can you talk about that?
Well, very matter of fact, very matter of fact.Yeah, I think that's fair to say.Very matter of fact, doesn't seem upset.Yeah.He's pretty chill about the whole thing, honestly.
I'm like, OK, so this is my personality and also my life experience, which is obviously going to be different than Richard Allen's.
But at this point in the interview, actually, I would say like at the beginning of the interview and I was Miran dies, I'm on the I'm on I'm on my feet calling my lawyer, which I guess is you in this situation.
So but even even let's just say like maybe someone's not aware that you should do that.Like even at this point I thought it was oddly calm.Some people I think might just be like that personality wise that you know it doesn't faze them.But.
it seemed odd to be like he what's odd to me is like the fact that he stayed for so long they made it clear in the beginning you can leave at any time the door is not locked you're not under arrest you can just go and he seemed to want to almost like not debate them but like kind of like talk them into
Like, he almost wanted a reassurance, I feel.Like, you know what I mean?But like, he also wasn't getting that, but then it was like, he just, why didn't he leave?
I think a lot of us, I don't know if this is what happened, but I think a lot of us have been in debates or fights or arguments with people where we don't want to leave until someone tells us we're right.
Yeah, I felt a little bit like that.And it's like, you're not going to get that, dude.Like, it was just it was kind of fascinating.He says, quote, I'm not an idiot.Quote, I had nothing to do with it.Quote, it's a horrible thing.
And at some point, Tony Liggett and Steve Mullen stand up and. You know, they left at one point.But before that, they talked about they wanted to look at, you know, possible traces of trace evidence in his vehicle to see if that was there.
And again, quote, I'm going to talk to my wife.
So at this point, this affects her as much as it affects me.
Yeah.They leave him and he's on his phone for a while, sort of in silence. You know, one thing I thought was interesting is seeing his face back then.
You know, we mentioned he's kind of back then he had a bit of a rounder face, a bit of a plumper face.When there's been discussion about like age, I think sometimes people are used to seeing his mugshot where he looks a lot older.
And certainly in some of those mugshots, very gaunt.But when this happened in 2017, I think that was a little bit less so and having a rounder kind of plumper face might have
That's just something to think about when we're thinking about witness identification.He looked different back then either way.
So the next thing that happens that kind of ratchets things up for him is when they come back into the room, they show him the picture from the Hoover, the Hoosier Harvest store traffic video of what they believe is his car.
And then they just casually drop the fact.He's been saying, oh, my wife doesn't even know I'm here.They just casually dropped, well, guess what?We have already talked to your wife and daughter.
These issues are very serious and there's a lot we need to clear up.
They talk about how from some of those conversations with his family members, quote, we have heard that you have some issues, end quote.And they specifically reference one very disturbing incident where he apparently put a gun in his mouth.
And he said, I've had psychological issues.I was going to shoot myself that night.You've talked to my wife.You can't have talked to anyone who knows me who thinks it was me who did these murders.
Yes.And this, now we're getting into kind of the moment where they confront him with the bridge guy picture, right?
This guy's wearing jeans, a jacket, a hat.And I thought on paper when it was described his reaction to this, I didn't really think it was that big of a deal necessarily.It was kind of a weirdly phrased things, but I mean like,
who hasn't weirdly phrased something in their life.It's not necessarily a huge thing.Like, I mean, it was interesting, but it wasn't that bad.But his reaction in the video is a lot weirder.
I thought he kind of, well, he just kind of like gives this weird breathy laugh and then says, like, kind of word salads it, quote, if it was taken with the girl's phone, it, you know, it wasn't me.
And it was like, and then he keeps on kind of emphasizing a repetitive thing.I never met them.You know, I never, I never seen them like all of that, but it's like, you know, almost like he didn't know them.
But the, but the thing is like people kill people that they don't know sometimes, you know?So it's okay.But he seemed very hung up on like, you know, we never met, we weren't, you know, social acquaintances.
So I, he just, he kind of, he seemed to kind of get fixated on things like that and would just be repeating it and repeating it.
And then I have several quotes from him here.He said, we're all done here.He said, things seem to have taken a turn.He said, it feels like I'm being interrogated.Guess what, you are.
He said, you're telling me you've already talked to my wife and daughters.I think we're done.You went and talked to my daughter and wife.He really saw that as a violation.But I can't stress enough, he would sit there, And he would say, we're done.
But he wouldn't stand up and walk away.
He wouldn't even make a move to or even, like, give any indication of leaving.
No, I want to ask you for people who are wondering, because, like, like, is that is that proper for the interview to continue when someone says, I'm done, even if they don't make any move to leave?Is that proper?
Is that is that is that something the police are not supposed to do?
The guy can stand up and walk out at any time.It takes more than just saying, I'm done, to end an interview.
Okay, so basically throwing that out there is not enough.One has to remove themselves from the situation, which it's been made clear they're free to do so.
Steve Mullin says, you're saying that the person out on the bridge was wearing the same clothes you were.And Richard Allen said, it's not me.You're not going to make me believe it's me.
Like I said, we're done here arrest me or take me home arrest me or take me home I didn't know this like one thing that was interesting was when I found his sort of reaction it's at this point it went from being kind of like
nervous or surprised even though again his affect was not necessarily always matching that um to more petulant would be the word at this point he's complaining he's kind of like yeah you know like nice conversation like when they're saying we just want to have a conversation with you you know he's
He's just kind of like, I don't know, he's that kind of, it's like obstinate petulance.He's kind of, it's just kind of an interesting thing.Like he's not, he's not like freaking out angry.
It's more like there's a sarcasm, there's a snarkiness coming out, but it's also again, weird because he doesn't have to be there.
Referring to the bridge guy picture.He says we've all looked at this thing for months and years He tells them you've lost my trust.I'm not going to talk to you anymore.Are you arresting me?
And Mullen was like, you know, no and the door is right there.
So at one point Mullen told him they didn't think he was a mean fella and Mullen says no, we're not arresting you the door is right there And so Richard Allen walks out and on the way out he turns to Mullen and says you're an asshole
Yeah, that exchange was the following.He's talking about, this is stupid.Now you've pissed me off.Steve Mullen, you know, he asked him, am I free to go?Steve Mullen, you've always been free to leave.Thank you.You're an asshole.That was the ending.
Yes.And then there was the morning break.
There was the morning break.
Do you want to talk about what we heard in front of us?
Yeah.So Cassie Allen was sitting in front of us.Defense Attorney Andrew Baldwin came over and he said, well, it is what it is, but the truth is coming out.And so the next video played.
Didn't he say something like, that's what an innocent man looks like?That's what I heard.
Yeah, that's what an innocent and then he said the truth is coming out and he repeated that four times as he walked away.The truth is coming out.The truth is coming out.The truth is coming.That's what it was.
So I believe you.So the next video is the Indiana State Police interrogation done by Jerry Holman.
And we've been in this room, right?Well, I don't know how many of the interrogation rooms they have, but we were in one of these rooms. Just quickly explain why.
Well, because we reported the leak of crime scene photos and we gave a statement to police over that.
But yeah, so that was... Before we talk about this, let's give a very quick reminder
that in the couple of weeks between the first interview and the second interview, that's a very eventful period in the life of Richard Allen because his house gets searched, a number of pieces of his property, including his gun, his vehicle, some of his clothes get seized, and so a lot has changed for him.
Certainly.And and he this second interview at the Lafayette Post takes place on October 26th, 2022.
Right.Again, he's dressed all in black.
I think the first one he might have been wearing jeans, though.I think in this he's I don't know if he was all in black in the first one, to be honest.He was wearing a black T-shirt, at least.But in this he's he's usually wearing sweatpants.
And a T-shirt that's too tight.
Yes.With like maybe white writing on it or something.
The video opens with him and Jerry Holman talking, and again, Holman's back is largely to the camera, and the camera is focused on the front of Richard Allen.
And as the recording begins, Holman is talking about, you know, there's paperwork and stuff for you to fill out in order to get some of your property back.
He explains, we took your Sig Sauer, your knives, your car, clothing.
And they start talking about, oh, guns, you know, Holman's like, you know, I'm in the middle.I was in the military.You're in the military.
Holman was in the Marine Corps.And then Allen was in the Army Reserves, I believe.
Oh, so what kind of guns did you use?Berettas.These are the types of guns we used.
And there's a lot of talk of guns.And Holman mentions wanting to build an indoor range.And is there an indoor range in Delphi?Do you ever go shoot in a ditch?
And then it's also funny because Holman does some equivalent of like a Columbo trick.Because you know, Columbo always said, oh, you know, I'm a nice, friendly guy, but my lieutenant wants me to ask some questions.
And Holman is like, well, you know, my lab, my lab just wants me to ask a few of these little questions.
You gotta blame someone else.
Always gotta blame someone else.And so the question the lab wants is,
some of the stuff that we are testing, most importantly the gun, is that something, Richard Allen, that was always in your control or is that something you loaned out to someone else?
And that is crucial because if he was letting other people use his gun and a bullet from that gun is linked to the crime scene,
and other people have access to that gun, it could be difficult to figure out who may have been using the gun on that particular day.
Yeah, you couldn't really blame Richard Allen for that because it's like, well, my nephew and his friends were using it and they had access to it anytime they wanted.So who would have had it that day?How do you even track that?
And sometimes they took it down to the shooting club and let anybody borrow it.
But Richard Allen says, no, no one ever used the gun except for me.
Absolutely. And, you know, it's interesting.This one, you know, we already kind of got a preview of this one in a lot of depth from McClelland, Nick McClelland's direct with Jerry Holman recently.
So it's like we kind of like I felt as we were watching this, it was it was really interesting to see back and forth.But it was also like, boom, boom, boom.We're kind of just hitting all these things that we already knew were coming.
One thing I was I was kind of waiting for, though, was the explosion, because the defense built this up as like a very big, like, you know, Holman was really mean to him and was yelling at him and cursing at him.And basically, like, isn't that awful?
And so we kind of like raising that specter.And I was kind of wondering, OK, what point are we going to get to that?And how is it going to play when we're all watching?
And it's going to be a while.
It's going to be.Yeah, it's certainly going to be a while.
So Holman talks about, oh, sometimes I let my friends borrow things.And then Holman does tell Richard Allen the test results on your handgun have come back.And the test results indicate that a bullet from your gun was at the crime scene.
And as Richard Allen is hearing this news, he kind of starts saying, OK, blankly.
Yes.I wrote, OK, placid.And then he chuckles and says, I don't think so.Odd.I mean, I thought it was an odd reaction.
And then Holman offers him the report and he says, I don't need to read it.
Holman says, you know, the prosecutor wants to lock you up and throw away your key, but I'm on your side, so the things you've said concern me.We've heard that Allen said to Holman, at the time of the search, it doesn't matter, it's over.
And Holman says, that comment concerned me.And Richard Allen said, well, when I said that, what I meant was the damage is done perhaps to my reputation and what people may think of me.
Which is, in my opinion, that's a fair thing to say.That's a fair reason to bring that up.But he also is acknowledging that he said that.So I know the defense tried to essentially say, Holman must have made it up.
But because they said it wasn't recorded.So who knows?
But I mean, Allen is addressing it.He's not saying I never said that.He's saying, yeah, I did say that.But I meant more that my life in the community is over because, you know, now here's the thing at this point.
There may have been some buzz because I think there was always probably buzz if someone's house got searched in Delphi.But I don't think there was any sort of media storm at this point because nobody knew.Yeah.Right.And so.
It's interesting that he kind of felt immediately because, I mean, I know in the beginning there were different places that were searched and different people looked into and obviously that could be pretty traumatic and possibly people might feel like damaged by that.
But it's just, you know, it's just interesting some of the reaction given that it wasn't really super public yet.
And then Holman, you remember in the previous interview, there was a moment where Richard Allen said, I don't want to be the fall guy.And so Holman references that because he says, well, I don't want you to be the fall guy.
But experts say, it's you on the video.If there's someone else involved, you should say something.And Richard Allen says, I don't know how my bullet would have gotten out there.There's no way.It's not my round.
At one point, Holman kind of indicates, like, are you the mastermind of this?Because I think, again, like, they're still looking at this being potentially a group.And Allen's like, you know, mastermind.
They kind of go back and forth a bunch about, you know, like, like him trying to get him to talk about, like, what happened that day.
And at one point, I'm sorry.
Good.Yeah.And then Allen's like, do you quote, do you realize what you've done to me again, referring to how the investigation to him will impact him in the community.
Holman keeps on saying the prosecutor wants me to arrest and he said, you know, the media is going to portray you as a monster.What you need to do is get out in front of this and tell us what really happened.
Richard Allen said, I can't tell you what happened that day. And Holman says, if you don't tell me, you're going down.As you just indicated, he says, okay, do you know what you've done to me?You've talked to my neighbors and coworkers.
People know you think I did something.I care and I worry about what people think of me.
Yeah, that was something he emphasized a lot, that he cares about what people think of him.
Is this the point where he mentioned a couple of names?
No, that was when Kathy came in later.
Okay, we'll get to that then.He said, there's no way around from my gun is anywhere near where those girls died.
there was a very weird exchange up next where he says like they almost talk over each other for a moment you remember this where Holman's like I have a warrant and like he almost like kind of like oh like you know you're gonna arrest me he's like no it's for your DNA
And then he but he but Holman kind of pinpoints him on that and asked him, like, what do you think it's for?And he's like, I think you're going to arrest me.So it felt like he came into the post that day fully expecting to be arrested.
Based on this conversation, like, I kind of figured they kind of lured him in with the car and maybe that happened to a certain extent.But this is not a man who's coming in being like, all right, where's my car?Oh, no.I mean, this is a man who
His demeanor is a lot more subdued than the first video.He, I don't know, he seems like he's ready to be arrested on some level, or at least like he's kind of very much expecting that.
Here's a few more quotes I have from him from this section of the recording.He says, Richard Allen said, you're trying to get me to confess to something I didn't do.If that round was near a murder site, it did not come out of my gun.
Holman said something about this could be a death penalty thing.And Richard Allen said, well, I don't care about living at this point.Kill me.I don't give a fuck.Make my life rich.
I think it was, you'll make my wife rich.
You'll make my wife rich, pardon me.He said, I never contacted Abby and Libby.I never even met them.And I think this is the point where the DNA swab was done.
I think that was actually Detective DeVito coming in to do the swab.Right.And they kind of just take a pause to do that. Um, at one point Alan is left sitting alone and he keeps, he keeps like shaking his head a lot.
Well, despite being alone, it just seemed, yeah, that was kind of the, the tick kind of.
Yeah, that was an interesting tick.Yeah.Um.He also, when Holman was there, uh, Alan would sometimes have a nervous laugh.
And Holman said, well, you think this is funny?And then he said, well, I guess it's just a nervous laugh.And he told Alan, this is more than just the bullet.
Alan kept on saying things like, there's nothing you can have that can implicate, there's nothing you can have that can implicate me because I wasn't there.You're not going to prove something I didn't do.
Holman said, social media will portray you as a monster.Alan says, I care about what people think.
The media is mild compared to social media, which is in this case, very true.And yeah. I think, um, let's see.
Oh, and at one point, you know, Alan picks up on like, well, you're asking me if I'm part of something and I've been some involvement, even if I'm not like the main instigator.So has someone, has someone implicate me?
Because if so, quote, they're fucking crazy.And then he said, quote, I don't know.I'm done.If you're going to arrest me, arrest me.This is ridiculous.
And so it's around here, I believe, that Kathy Allen comes in.And before we talk about that, there's the old cliche that no one who's not in a marriage can understand the dynamics of that marriage.
But I'm sure there's people listening to this or to our sister podcast, Mystery TV, And I think that they probably make all sorts of guesses about my relationship with Anya, whether they're accurate or not, who knows.
But I don't know what kind of conclusions we can draw about the Allens and their relationship based on this interaction.
Nothing concrete, necessarily.
But it was something that... It was something that was interesting.Maybe the thing to do was just try to describe it and let people draw their own conclusions.
I can tell you that after this video ended and there was a lunch break, people in line, the main thing they were talking about was these interactions between Richard and Kathy Allen.
They were definitely an interesting part of the video. But let me get, let me, I'm just flipping it.
But before she comes in, I guess, Holman tells Richard Allen that Kathy Allen says that Richard Allen did not want her to go on a search party for the girls.
Yeah, back in 2017, obviously this was something a lot of people in the Delphi community participated in, searching for the girls.And what Holman relates to Allen is that Kathy told them that he didn't want her participating in that.Right?
That was kind of it.So that's interesting.And Holman also says that Kathy Allen has told them that Richard Allen's depression has been worse since the 2017 murder of Abby and Libby.
Yeah, so then, so Kathy is allowed to come in and Holman leaves and they're in the room alone.They sort of do a hug.That kind of comes more from Richard Allen's side, I think.
Yeah, his head, he kind of like presses it against her shoulder. And then he tells her, they're acting like you believe I did it.I can't explain something I don't understand.You know me.You know this isn't something I could do, and I know that.
I'm not going to explain something I don't understand.I'm not going to try to convince you.I know you know I didn't do it.This is what he's telling to her.What was she saying to him?
I think there were a couple of things I picked up and I think you and I were talking about one that I don't quite remember right now.
But yeah, she was kind of talking softly.
She was whimpering, talking softly.
You were telling me something about the bridge.
Oh, yeah.I, okay.I don't. Keep in mind, this is what I wrote down, and this is what I'm pretty sure I heard, but please tell me, I could be wrong.And again, she's hard to hear because she's so quiet.
But I thought she said something to the effect of, you told me you weren't on the bridge.
And then in another point, I clearly heard her say something to the effect of, how did a bullet from your gun get out there?
Yep, I heard that too. I heard at one point her saying, what the hell are we going to do?
And he's saying things like, I know that no bullet from my gun was connected to a murder.I didn't even have a gun that day.I don't have a way to explain.She's like, what about the witnesses who seen you out there?He said, I love you.
They're not going to get away with this.
You're not in any trouble.Don't worry about it.Also, this was one thing I was really struck by, especially after she was asking some of those questions. quote, I'm not going to sit here and try to convince you.
And then again, the repetitive, I know you know me and you know I couldn't do this because you know me and I know you.Very repetitive.Same old thing.
One thing that I was really struck by that's hard to articulate on here because we're not playing the actual audio is the demeanor, certainly he was a lot more angry with, or certainly, like, combative towards Holman.
But generally, I didn't feel like there was, like, that much of a switch in affect with the way he was... It was almost like he was, again, addressing... Like, with Holman, he was saying the same repetitive things.I don't know how it got out there.
It must not be my bullet, or it must have not been really found at the crime scene.I can't account for that.I don't know.I don't know.I don't know.The repetition and kind of this almost... It's not really quite a flat affect.
It's just more of like, it was odd.Yeah, it was kind of odd.And then he's like, he's treating his wife the same exact way as he was this police detective who he's been going back and forth with.
Just the same tone, same sort of repetition, same refusal to even like, You know, I certainly feel like in a situation with this, like a spouse would be like, well, what the heck happened?
And like, OK, well, maybe this happened, but I'm not going to try to convince you.You know, he felt like very much the one in charge of this.
And like, I thought it was very telling because God forbid I'm ever in serious legal problems.And if someone presents a bunch of evidence against me to you, I think I'm going to ask you, Anya, what do you think?
And instead of that, he tells her what she thinks.
Oh, yeah, repeatedly, like drilling it into her.And it was just interesting because there was this sort of performative, like, I need to ask my wife and make sure my wife's OK with this.
And we need to look at what my wife says in his initial interview with Liggett and Mullen.But here there was no like, honey, what do you think about this?What should we do?Should I get a lawyer?
There was only there was only I know you and I know, you know, I didn't do this.
There's a lot of people knowing you.
He said to her, they're going to do what they're going to do.I'm just sorry you have to go through it.I'm sorry I have to go through it.I care about what people think.
And then you remember that Holman told him that Kathy Allen had said that his anxiety and depression had gotten worse. And he said, you know, my depression and anxiety have been going on longer than seven or eight years.I've had it my whole life.
I'm not going to try to explain something I can't explain.They want you to think I did it.I know you don't think that.You know me too well.Just tell them you want an attorney and they'll let you leave.Don't worry about me.
Let's unpack that.OK, so the it's this is a situation where he he obviously knows his rights.I mean, he's saying the attorney is the escape button here.
One would think that somebody with that knowledge would certainly use it on themselves, given how contentious things have gotten and you want to protect your rights and you might have an attorney be able to deal with some of this for you.
What do you make of the fact that he's basically saying, honey, you get an attorney, get out of here.Don't worry about me.
I hate to speculate so much.
Well, it's it's a defeated almost is yeah, it's defeated which I don't understand and save yourself It's very odd, but like I just want to emphasize like how much of this I know you you know me she's not saying anything or she's occasionally interjecting hard to understand questions and It was honestly like I know some people I
It was a very strange dynamic that we saw in this video.And of course, it's just a video in a very stressful time in two people's lives and marriage.So I'm not saying we need to draw any concrete conclusions, but it was a.
It was really odd, I thought.And at one point he talks about, quote, half the time.He's talking about how he's constantly worried about people thinking things about him.And it's probably not often what they're even thinking.
He just thinks they're thinking that.And, quote, I'm always thinking about what Jory thinks, end quote.I think that was a CVS coworker.But he's kind of just bringing up to her,
Yeah, there was a woman he worked with at CVS.
And it's like he's just but it's just like if I were in a situation like this and I were the spouse coming in and trying to figure out what's going on, I think I would certainly be a little bit less concerned about like hearing my spouse rattle off their issues in a and be a little bit more concerned with like
What do we need to do right now and also explain what's going on here.So I mean I don't know.It was it was weird.It was a very weird and memorable portion of it.
Speaking of weird. We're coming up on one of these edits.So we have, don't get an attorney.They're let you leave.Don't worry about me.And it's him and Kathy and they're talking quietly.And then there was a cut.Kathy is still in the room.
He is still in the room.Holman is still in the room and everybody's yelling.
Kyle Holman comes back in the room.Everyone's yelling except Kathy, I guess.
Yeah.Holman is suddenly in the room.So suddenly everybody is yelling.We don't know what was cut. that precipitated this argument.
But I guess, language alert, Holman says, you're going to drag your fucking wife and daughter through this because you're too much of a pussy to get in front of it.Holman says, we've had this fucking round since February.
I thought you were saying because you're too bullheaded to get in front of it.But I might be wrong.
Well, if that's the case, then I apologize for unnecessarily using a vulgar term.
Great job, Kevin.Jesus Christ.
Holman says, we've had this fucking around since February 14, 2017.You think we took a cartridge and just threw it down by a dead girl's leg?This isn't TV.At this point, I think Cassie leaves.And Holman says, do the right thing.
As she's leaving, he says to her, do the right thing.Tell him, Cassie, to do the right thing.You're going to put your family through this forever.
He walks Kathy out and he says to Richard Allen, you're going to pay for what you've, no, Richard Allen says to Holman, you're going to pay for what you've done to my wife.Uh, Richard Allen says, I am pissed off.And, uh, I am pissed off.
Did you see my wife?And Holman says, did you see those two dead girls?They pissed you off and you dragged them down the hill.And Richard Allen says, arrest me.And Holman says, I'd love to.
So then, that's the end of what we see, but then Judge Gold says, I'm going to read you a little bit of what happened next.
And this comes, it was surreal.We've had our differences with Judge Gold, but she always seems to be very dignified and refined on the bent.Oh yeah. And so suddenly, imagine this being read in Judge Gould's voice from the bench.
Judge Gould, speaking for Richard Allen, said, fuck, fucking police.And then Jerry Homan comes in on the transcript and has Richard Allen put his hands behind him, and they're cuffed, and he make sure that the cuffs are comfortable.
Yeah.Are they OK right now?And they're not supposed to be tighter.So it was kind of interesting.
And it also sort of speaks to what Holman was talking about the other day, where it's like the anger is a tool in some ways to elicit reactions from a guy who's kind of just repeating himself constantly.So I
You know, and then he's like, oh, my God, like, like, don't like let me check, make sure your cops are OK.So it's kind of just like a weird like whiplash thing there.But I feel like that's just kind of the nature of this.
I'm curious, like, do you think the defense oversold the video?
It definitely got intense there at the end, although it was kind of hard to understand with, you know, I think there may have been if I had to speculate either some long discussion about stuff that was mentioned in Emotion and Lemonade or perhaps a polygraph test that was offered and then rejected.
that then preceded a pretty heated exchange.And it certainly got heated, and Holman was certainly swearing and yelling, but that was really just towards the end.
It really felt... It was towards the end.It was brief.It was relatively mild.
From how the defense portrayed it, in my mind, I imagined it like the old TV show from the 70s, The Incredible Hulk, where Holman loses his temper and transforms into a wild beast.
like thrown throws the guy through like the roof or something yeah I thought they may have oversold it I mean I don't know I don't know what the jury's appetite for that is maybe we watched too many shows but I just wasn't it didn't shock me and it didn't make me like whoa oh my god he went too far you don't want to have a situation where someone's like
you know, berating somebody into a confession and blah, blah, blah.But just, this just seemed like it didn't really go anywhere.And ultimately it was just kind of, I didn't find it shocking.That was just my opinion.
People can disagree, but I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't know if I feel like maybe, maybe it was a little bit oversold, but I can also understand them being like, well, that's, I mean, they got to use whatever ammo they have, but I just, I didn't feel like it was that big of a deal ultimately.
So then after lunch, there was a bunch of witnesses, and we're gonna try to get through them expeditiously.The first one was John Gallopo, who is the former warden of Westville Prison.He was the warden when Richard Allen was there.
He started out by talking about the conditions Allen was kept in for his safety, and because of health and suicide concerns, he was kept in an observation cell.
12 by 8 feet, the size of the cell was the same as all the other ones in its pod.
The bed in there had a frame that was bolted to the door, bolted to the floor, so he couldn't hide underneath it because, again, potential suicide concerns.He says that Rich Allen could shower three times a week.
Get new clothes three times a week.
or clothes washed three times a week.He had access to an electronic tablet.He had some recreational period five times a week.
Commissary could download apps on that tablet.
He was seen by mental and medical health personnel.He had at least two face-to-face visits with Kathy, which was a privilege that weren't afforded anyone else in that unit.
Although in fairness, no one else in the unit was pre-trial.
And because of fears that some of his odd behavior, which we'll hear a lot more about, might lead to suicide, he was observed regularly by what they call suicide companions.
These were either inmates at first and later correctional officers who would stand outside his door and basically keep an eye on him to make sure he wasn't committing suicide.And whenever he would do anything of interest,
perhaps might need to be evaluated by medical personnel, they would make a note of it on a log.
Gallipo noted that Allen was quiet at first, a quiet inmate, no issues.And then that changed in Gallipo's mind the day that Allen first got his legal mail.He became erratic.He began ripping up the letters of the mail.
And that started things like defecating in his cell, washing his face in the toilet, doing all sorts of things that we'll go into, I'm sure, in graphic detail.
And Gallipoli indicated that Allen had confessed to him on more than one occasion.Sometimes in writing, he sent a request at one point in for a meeting with the warden, writing, quote, I'm ready to officially confess for killing Abby and Libby.
He would confess at other times, and he would apologize, and at least on one occasion he mentioned to the warden that he, John, that he, Richard Allen, had disposed of a specific box cutter in a dumpster at CVS.
Yes, and that written statement, that written statement to Gallipo where he was almost like requesting a meeting with him was from March 5th, 2023.
So then there was the cross-examination by Brad Rosey.
A lot of this is stuff that has been covered in other hearings extensively, where Rosey essentially is trying to make the case that the conditions at this prison were so bad that they somehow caused Richard Allen to decide to spontaneously falsely confess to double homicide 61 times.
And I felt that this cross was kind of wandering and got pretty far afield of its points because... That was a consistent theme with Rosie today.
At one point he was talking about, oh, the rec area that Richard Allen is given to have his recreation in, you know, there's walls outside of it.And Gallop just kind of looked at him and said, it's a prison.
Yeah, basically a big part of this was Rosie standing near a map of Westville and being like, could Richard Allen play in this field?Was that afforded to him?And Gallop was saying, that's not a rec area.It's just a field.No one goes in there.
I mean, that felt like half of this. And it's like, okay.I feel like when you're putting stuff out there like that, it sort of undermines some of your wider points that you might want to drill down on.
But again, like, I mean, I've heard again and again from attorneys that effective cross-examinations are brief and brutal, and you don't just throw in every point that comes to mind in your first brainstorming session.
But sometimes it feels like that's what Rosie's doing.
I think it makes his crosses less effective because he might have some really good points and you might nail somebody but by the end you're just like He wasn't allowed to be in a field like what he's in a prison.There are walls.
It doesn't have a friggin scenic view What do you want?
And I feel that in some of these cross-examinations, because there was a bunch of them, he would make contradictory points because he would say or suggest, oh, isn't it awful that Richard Allen was in solitary confinement at these prisons?
There's no reason for that. That's inhuman.And then in the next breath, he would talk about how everybody else at the prison is being mean to Richard Allen and yelling at him that he should kill himself because he's a child killer.
And if you're in a situation where you're surrounded by prisoners who think you're a child killer and think you should die, then it makes sense for you to be in solitary confinement to protect you from them.
Does that make, you understand what I'm saying?
It does, it certainly does.It certainly does, yeah.But you know, it's just, I think it's just throw a bunch of stuff out of the wall.
Judge Gold frequently got upset with him today.In this first cross-exam, there was a point where McLean was saying, you know, some of these things you're asking are outside the scope of this.And Rosie was like, ah, nah.
And then Judge Gull says, you know, I'm the one who decides if it is outside the scope, and it is outside the scope.And there's a pause, and he says, well, no further questions.
Yeah, I just, like, I don't know.I'm not, I'm not impressed with it.
Maybe some people are, maybe some people like the kind of like skating on the rager's edge and like, oh, well, he, you know, he's pushing through and the jury's hearing it, even if it's, they're being told to, you know, strike it from the record.
But it's like, it's just the whole thing feels like, kind of like what somebody doesn't really know much, like, thinks a lawyer should be doing as opposed to, like, what a good defense attorney should be doing.I don't know.Maybe that's kind of mean.
I just I don't feel like we've really seen him shine in this trial so far.I think I can point out a couple of pretrial hearings where I thought he was, like, by far the best, you know, and I thought he did really well.But I just feel like
they're doing too much in some of this so far.Maybe he'll have a chance to shine once it's the defense's turn to present their case.
So then the next witness was a correctional officer from Westville named Ethan Durang and he was one of these suicide companions and he had a log of things he heard Richard Allen say or do on particular occasions and he says that he heard Richard Allen say, I think coming to prison cured my depression and anxiety.
And then he also said, uh, he wanted a piece of paper, something that indicated that he killed Abby and Libby and wanted to confess.
Was there anything else you want to say about his direct?
Um, no.And then, uh, Rosie Crofts, him, um, talked about how earlier in the day when he made those statements, he had been crying and screaming and, um, Yeah, I think that that kind of feels like the biggest thing.What do you think?
Oh, then he.You know, talks just again, he was trying to emphasize like bad prison conditions, essentially.
McClelland recrossed and talked about a malingering, basically that one consistent theme across all of these, not all of them, but many of these correctional officers that we're going to hear from did not believe that Allen was
that his bizarre behavior was tied to a mental illness, they felt that he was essentially faking it, malingering.And the reasons that they cited mostly came down to the fact that he appeared to be able to control it.
Meaning that, you know, if he was, if he was engaging in bizarre behavior and then wanted something, he'd stop. to procure that or get what he wanted or to ask a question or to do something.
A lot of them described thinking that he was doing it for attention, whereas, you know, they'd be they'd be observing him and then they'd go down to write their notes and he'd have stopped because they weren't paying attention, close attention to him anymore.
People just generally felt that his his kind of descent into this was very sudden and not really predicated by anything.
that generally the impression amongst the personnel at Westphal seemed to be that he was not having a sincere fit of mental illness, but in fact that his behavior was just attention seeking and.
Exactly.And I don't think we're going to mention that about each one of these correctional officers, but I think generally all of them said that.
Yeah.I think one guy did not say that, but the vast majority of them said that.
Let's move on to the next correctional officer who testified this afternoon, Michael Clemens.He was also a correctional officer at Westville.
In my notes, I have him saying that he heard Richard Allen say, God, I'm so glad no one gave up on me after I killed Abby and Libby.He also heard him say, I, Richard Matthew Allen, killed Abby and Libby all by myself.No one helped me.
He also heard him say, I'm not crazy.I'm only acting like I am crazy.And I should note during this testimony, Andrew Baldwin had his arm around Richard Allen on the back of his chair.
Yep.I noticed that too.And they also talked about changes in behavior.They talked about smearing feces, eating feces and banging his head on the wall, which turned out to be he wasn't like slamming it against the wall.
Everyone said that it was more of It was a light kind of bang, but that he would do it so much that people felt like he was injuring himself and like his face became swollen because he just did it so much through repetition.
So that got discussed a bit.And, you know, one thing that Rosie kept emphasizing on his crosses was just like, can't prison just break down a man and get anyone to be kind of crazy.
And one thing that he kept emphasizing, you know, it's the defense contest contended that Allen suffered from major depressive disorder, I believe.
You know, they talked about his depression and anxiety, but they've they've kind of argued that and they they they say based on like a kind of an older
I don't remember with the DSM or if it was like something with the prison handbook, but that's a serious mental illness in their minds, although I think it's been since not listed as that.So there's some debate over that.
But they're saying one thing they kept saying is like, he has a serious mental illness.If someone with a serious mental illness went to prison, wouldn't that make it worse?And most of the guards agreed, like, yes.
But then on redirect frequently, McLean would be like, but do you think that he was acting this way because he was mentally ill or because he was just malingering?And they frequently indicated that they felt he was malingering.
The next correctional officer, I told you there was a lot.Next one is Michael Roberts.He also was a correctional officer at Westville.I'll read some of the things he says he heard Richard Allen say.
He heard Richard Allen say, Dear Lord, forgive me for molesting Abby and Libby and Chris.He also heard him say, Dear God, forgive me for molesting Abby and Libby and Kevin and Chris.
Also, when I heard him say, I want to confess, I know a lot about the Abby, you have that one?
I have, I want to confess, I know a lot more.
And then, um, what, what more do I got to do?Yeah.And what more do I got to do?And then quote, I killed Abby and Libby.My wife was not involved.I would like to confess.
Can I talk?Can you listen?I killed Abby and Libby.How can I prove I'm insane?Why are you doing this?Do you know God?Do you know why I'm here?I killed Abby and Libby.Do I make you mad?Have I told you about my wife?I killed Abby and Libby.
Should I lie down?That's probably correct.
Yeah.And then, yeah, this this person also talked about how he, you know, quote, Alan would quote, make it like act like others weren't there and would like zone out.And basically he felt it was all acting up and not mental illness.
during cross Rosie started during cross So they would introduce into evidences exhibits like a log in which these people these correctional officers had written down their observations about Richard Allen's behavior some of the things they said and McClellan would bet McClellan would basically have them just say certain parts of it and Rosie would start to have them
talk about other things in the log, such as the fact that at some point Richard Allen smeared feces on himself and it stayed on his face for two hours.Another thing in there, Richard Allen supposedly said, I'll never smoke or cheat on my wife again.
Yeah, and I never cheated on a cigarette. And also, can I say this with what his claim about family abuse?
Yeah, why don't you do that?
He claimed apparently that his grandfather molested him.And then also he said he wanted one of the guards to read him his last rites.He wanted Kentucky fried chicken.
And they said that he didn't say that he wanted to kill himself, but he also did want to die.
So, I mean, one thing that was interesting was Rosie, I think, was the one who brought up the grandfather, the possibility of him being molested as a child at the, I think, age of 11.No, no, that was that was the babysitter.That'll come later.
But the grandfather being molested, the grandfather molesting him rather.So I thought that was interesting because it was.You know, I think he was kind of saying, well, it's not totally ridiculous, but.
You know, some people might have a different reaction to that.
Yes. Should we move on to the next ones and where you want to talk about that gentleman's testimony?
He talked about how like Rosie claimed his face was black and blue just from the repeated taps against the wall And you know one thing Rosie was indicating and I understand this because I think it's probably something that a lot of people who maybe haven't spent time in prisons think and that's like
He's kind of like, how could you not believe he's really having a mental illness because he's eating his feces?Isn't that like so far beyond the pale that you'd have to be having some kind of crisis in order to do that?
And one thing that a lot of the correctional officers said was, Well, I've worked in a prison and I've seen a lot of stuff.And so it doesn't surprise me.And I don't necessarily think that means someone is in the grips of mental illness.
So that was kind of interesting to see the divide where he's saying, like, come on, like kind of an appeal to normalcy, whereas the guards are saying, well, we're working in a very abnormal environment and we might expect to see people malingering and doing all kinds of extreme behavior for whatever reason, but it's not necessarily out of mental illness.
Next correctional officer from Westville is James Early.He says he heard Richard Allen say, I am ready to confess.I swear to God I killed Abby and Libby.Fuck me running.He also heard him say, may I confess to the warden and Dr. Walla.
On cross-examination, Rosie brought up the fact that apparently he also said, fox trot, foxy lady, fuck me running.
There was some interesting talk on the redirect from McClellan going back to what Anya mentioned a moment ago about how this is another officer who felt that some of Richard Allen's more outrageous behavior was fake.
He talked about how Richard Allen would drink dirty toilet water, but before he did it, he would stand there and take a deep breath as if he was stealing himself up for it.
And he felt that if he was really crazy, he would not need to steal himself up for it.
Yeah.There was a similar thing involving a spork and his genitals. Once you discuss that, sure, he would, I guess, poke his genitals with a spork from his meal kit thing that kind of.
But the correctional officer felt it was in a way that was almost like he was like. Like, it wasn't uninhibited.It was like, he would almost do it a bit and then, I mean, what do you, I mean, okay, why don't you talk about it?
I'm just kidding.I was making an effort to actively not listen to that part.
Yeah, it was like, just basically, my understanding was almost that it was just kind of like, he never did that again after doing it once.And the feeling was like, if he was really in the grips of a mental crisis where he was just doing whatever,
Why not do it again?The behavior seemed a lot more calculated, it sounds like, to these correctional officers by their own recounting.Of course, that's their own perception.We're not there to see it.
But it seemed more calculated and more planned than you would expect from somebody who was just doing whatever because of a mental health crisis.
Should we go on to the next one?
Told you there was a lot.John Miller testified.He also was a correctional officer from Westville, one of these suicide companions.He said he heard Richard Allen say, I killed Abby and Libby.What was he said about the finest joke?
Quote, the funniest joke is how well, this is not a direct quote from Alan, but the guy wrote down the funniest joke is how he killed them.And then after saying that, he began to shout foul words.
He also said that Allen said, I got what I deserved for what I did, and I hope I burn in hell.And then while weeping, Richard Allen said, I'm sorry for what I did in killing them.Kill me.I'm sorry I killed those kids.
And then in cross-examination, Rosie brought up that Richard Allen also apparently said that Richard Allen had molested his sister and killed his family.
Richard Allen also said that he may have touched his daughter in an inappropriate way, but he doesn't remember it.And he also said that Richard Allen indicated that while he was sleeping, he became sexually excited while pondering all of that.
I don't know why Rosie would put some of this in here.
I think that's a good point.I think what Rosie is thinking, well, we all know Richard Allen is so great that these things are just crazy.
But I think some people might not react that way, and they might feel that some of these things could be, frankly, they might be plausible.
Yeah, I think it's concerning and, you know, familial sexual abuse, it just, you know, I wouldn't have picked these examples if I were, I think there were other ones that were more out there.
And now, and then actually, McClellan did a redirect on the family thing that kind of gave more context.Right.Because, you know, you want to discuss that.You're probably thinking correctly.He didn't kill his family.That's obviously ridiculous.
So, well, you know, that is fair.So maybe he is, you know, just completely out of his mind.But.Basically. McClelland had him go into some of that stuff and it was like, quote, I only killed them to give my family more time.
Was that something that he said?And talked about like, his wife is dead, but I don't know, it felt, and tell me if I'm reading too much into this, but I felt like what McClelland and the officer were getting at were almost, it was like,
There was an element of linking what he did to destroying his family, maybe not literally killing them.He talked about killing grandchildren he might have had, which, again, seems implausible.
But at the same time, it may be more metaphorically about what this impact has had on his family.
So I think that's what McClellan was trying to spin it as, Rosie was more spinning it as, like, this didn't happen, so obviously we shouldn't listen to him. Next was, was it Raymond or Randall Fisher?
I thought it was Randall.I think this was the gentleman who was very difficult to hear.
He was so hard to hear, but he had an interesting quote from Allen.
Tell us.Well, he was a correctional officer.He was once employed as a correctional officer at Westfield.
So he said in his notes he had Alan saying that he killed two girls in Delphi with a box cutter that he stole and then left in the CVS trash.And yeah. And then he wanted a bottle of water and he wanted something so he could write a confession.
And then later on, he said he killed Abby and Libby.And at that point, he had formed a small gash over his head from the kind of light banging he was doing against the wall.
So that's a more detailed one where you have like the box cutter, the disposal, the box cutter and disposing it at CVS seem to come up again and again.Yes.
In cross-examination, Rosie tried to bring up that this man got fired from his job.McClelland objected, and I will mention again, towards the end of the cross-examination, Rosie again tried to bring that up for some reason.
He also read some of the other things that were in this particular gentleman's report, including the fact that Richard Allen said he'd lost his virginity at the age of 11. with a babysitter who was next door.
Also, apparently, Richard Allen said that the girls, I believe Abby and Libby, were screaming when he murdered them.
Which would contradict this sort of idea, like, if people around, couldn't they have heard them?You know, so that would be, you know, something that the defense would want to bring up, obviously.
The babysitter thing concerned me because that seems like the sort of thing that can happen to people, and I just was like, I don't know. You know what I mean?Like I'm not trying to say like, you know, maybe maybe that's not true but like
I didn't like look at that and say, oh, wow.Yeah, that's so wild.Like there were other things like that that I felt like fit more fit the bill better.And certainly I thought it was good that Rosie mentioned like he said they were screaming.
Could that be even possible?And I think that's a good point for him to make.This is another thing I missed from from this guy's testimony.He talked about how, you know, in late April, Alan continued to talk about Abby and Libby.
He said he wanted to rape them.Something scared him and then he killed them instead. So we're getting kind of more detail.
We're getting more details about what happened.
And one thing that was interesting, Rosie doubled down on like, so he said he stole this box cutter.
But if I've learned anything from hearing from some of the retail employees that listen to our show and then seeing some of their feedback, you know, it's actually very common that people might just come home with a box cutter.
And a retailer is usually not going to like run you down and send asset protection after you for that.It's not a big deal.
Are we ready to move on to the next correctional officer?
Um, one other thing that this guy mentioned was, uh, was this where, was this the one where he also was like, he was eating his feces, but then he told this guy, quote, I won't be doing that again.
And quote, kind of, which again, McClelland, I think brought up to kind of count, contradict, because if someone's doing that, you know, out of mental illness, it's not necessarily going to be as easy for them to stop.
And Rosie kind of was like, did he really stop though?But then this guy was like, well, I never saw him do it again.So I don't know.
Next one was another correctional officer from Westville.He was another suicide companion.He said on one occasion, Raymond Smith, thank you.He said on one occasion, Richard Allen licked the window of the door of his cell and said, Kathy, I did it.
I'm guilty.Run, Kathy, run.He also said, I killed those two girls, so I have to kill myself. On cross-examination, Rosie brought up another quote that we'll get more context on in a moment.
I think Anya will share that when we talk about the Redirect, where Richard Allen apparently said, if I fucked those girls, I fucked them.If I killed them, I killed them.And then I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I will.
Also in these notes was the fact that on one occasion, At 3 a.m., Richard Allen gratified himself sexually by the door while singing, Mama, Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up to be Cowboys.
Can you give us some more context from the redirect on the, if I killed them, I killed them comment?
Oh, and he also kept on singing, God bless America.
Um, what, what McLean was getting at with the redirect was that this, um, correctional officer felt that he was essentially almost saying like, whatever happened, happened.
As opposed to claiming to have literally committed sexual assault.
And then we have our final witness of the day, the final correctional officer, this is James Bedwell.
Something a little bit different about him.
Yes, and what is that, Anya?
He was posted at Wabash Valley, not Westville.So this is a much more modern iteration of some of this behavior that we're seeing.
This is a confession that occurred on February 4th, 2024, this very calendar year.
So he was doing his rounds that day, kind of on there.It's kind of like a medical mental health unit, it sounds like.So he's doing his rounds and that means going around and he has a sheet that he's kind of checking everything off on.
And it allows him to kind of like make a note, like two equals like the patient, the inmate is like in bed or something.There's different like codes almost.This is around 10 a.m.He comes by the cell and he overhears Alan saying,
Quote, I'm sorry for what I did.I'm sorry for killing those girls.He was crying.He's in bed and talking to himself.And.
Brad Rosie took a lot of issue with the fact that this guy said like wrote down, you know, kind of quickly, like he said he killed the girls.And then in a conversation with police later, the guy said he apologized for all that he had done.
He apologized for killing the girls.I thought that was a real quibble.I didn't think I didn't think that was a big deal at all.I was surprised he made such a big thing about that.What do you think?
I thought it was shocking that he was still making statements like this as late as this year.
Yeah, that was, and you know, this seems to be, yeah, there seems to be something that may have also happened at Cass County because Cass County was mentioned when it came to correctional officers and things like that.
So I'd be curious about how far this goes, honestly. But how did you think?We're not going to read all of them because we just don't have time.But how did you what do you think of the juror questions?
I thought a couple of the juror questions were actually pretty friendly to the defense.I thought a couple of them were kind of like kind of indicated like, well, maybe conditions are really bad.And like, how do you deal with mental health?
And like, you know, so I felt like some of that was was definitely working well for the defense on that level.Did anyone stand out to you?Did they seem to shift over time?I'm just curious what your impressions were.
I agree with you.A couple of them seem a bit more friendly to the defense than in earlier days.
I think it's one of those things like prison is really difficult.
And I think when you kind of throw a lot of that at the jury, I can understand why they'd be concerned about like, are we getting also at this point, all the confessions we've heard have been generic.Well, that's not entirely true.
We've gotten a couple of more detailed ones, but generally these are not super detailed.And it's just him saying, I killed them, which again, could be compelling if it's also paired with specific information, but that we have yet to see that.
So we will be curious to see what happens next.
Thank you so much for listening.
Yeah, we really appreciate it.And we'll be back soon.
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