Content warning this episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls Hi, everybody.Thanks for listening to the murder sheet today.We really appreciate you tuning in it's October 24th 2024 and we just came back a little while ago from
Day five of the Delphi murders trial in Delphi, Indiana at the Carroll County Courthouse.This of course sees Delphi resident Richard Allen on trial for murdering Delphi teenagers, Liberty German and Abigail Williams on February 13th, 2017.
And I gotta say it was a very, very busy day at this trial.So we have a lot to talk about.So let's get to it.
My name is Anya Kane.I'm a journalist.
And I'm Kevin Greenlee.I'm an attorney.
And this is The Murder Sheet.
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.We're The Murder Sheet.
And this is The Delphi Murders.Richard Allen on trial.It doesn't matter.Day five.It doesn't matter.It's over.
So I want to start by discussing something that goes all the way back to the early days after Richard Allen was arrested.
Since very early on in the proceedings, Ani and I reported that his arrest came about as the result of a rediscovered tip from some sort of a volunteer.
And there were numerous people who didn't believe us, and they spread all sorts of rumors, like they said, oh, it was actually his son-in-law that turned him in, or he got caught stealing tools from a neighbor, and that's how all this came about.
But surprise, surprise, spoiler alert, what Anya and I reported was correct, and it was testified to by the first witness today, Kathy Shank.
Kathy Shank is a woman who grew up in Carroll County, attended Purdue University in nearby Tippecanoe County in Lafayette, and then for 30 years worked for the welfare office in Carroll County, which is now the Department of Child Services.
And so after she left in, I believe, 2011, she ultimately returned to work with
And I think this says something.First of all, I think she actually was with the department for 40 years.And I think what happens next in her life says something about this town of Delphi.And it's something that Ani and I have talked a lot about.
over the years we've been covering this case, where it's a case, it's a city where people are really there for each other.So this woman had retired from a job and instead of just sitting back and relaxing and enjoying her well-deserved retirement,
She hears about what happened to Abby and Libby, and she wants to get involved with the investigation.And she does so as a volunteer.
And so then, essentially, for many years, she worked something close to the equivalent of a volunteer job with this investigation.I believe she said she worked about 30 hours a week.
In the beginning, her role was basically to almost serve as a receptionist because people would come in and they would see her behind the counter and they say, oh, I have this tip or I have that tip.
And she would make sure that whatever they reported got to the appropriate person in law enforcement who could then make determinations about what to do with it.
But then as time passed, fewer and fewer people were coming in, so that didn't necessarily take up her full time.And so then she got a different assignment.Do you wanna talk about that or you want me to?
Well, she described herself as an organizer and she talked about how essentially there were all these bankers boxes filled with investigative reports that she wanted to organize.
So what she was doing basically was getting a bunch of filing cabinets and organizing each of these reports, I believe by, you know, like if it was like,
oh, I saw Joe or something, then all the reports would be grouped together by possible perpetrator.Is that right?
That is right.And she wasn't actually reading every word of these reports.She was just determining who they were about.And then she organizes them.She arranges them by, as you say, here's all the ones about Joe.
Here's all the ones about Bill in different stacks. And then when she has all the reports about Joe, she puts them in a file or a folder, and she does that with all the other reports.
And by the end of this process, Anya, by the end of this process, ladies and gentlemen, this woman, Kathy Shanks, filled five filing cabinets. with these reports that she organized.Isn't that incredible?
Yeah, and she also talked a little bit about the difference between some of these different, there's tips and then there's, I think, narrative reports?
I don't really have that in my notes very good.I think I can't read what I actually wrote, so I'm wondering if you could pick up the slack.
That's never a good sign.So a tip would be, let's say someone calls in and says, my Uncle Joe looks just like Bridge Guy. And so they'd get a lot of these tips, and then they would put them in a couple different categories.
There were the categories where this is a tip where a law enforcement officer just needs to go out and talk to the person, and then that's done.That's all we need to do.And then there are other tips
that would say, okay, go out, talk to the person, but don't stop there.Just keep investigating this lead and see where it goes.So that's what the tips are.They're the little reports that come in from citizens.
The narrative reports, which is kind of what she was filing in the beginning, that would be what the officer did with the tip.
So if they get a tip saying my Uncle Joe looks like bridge guy, an officer would say, okay, I went out and talked to Uncle Joe and he didn't look at something like bridge guy and he had an alibi.
and that would be his narrative report, and then that would be the end of it, and then Kathy would put it in a folder and put it in a filing cabinet.
So here's how Kathy Schenck uncovered Richard Allen, sort of excavated him in this investigation after he'd been buried for literally years.
She was going through these tips and found a self-reported tip from somebody who was listed as being named Richard Allen Whiteman.
and it was self-reported, and then she went to sort of cross-check that with any other relevant information about what this was, and realized, after seeing the narrative report, that there was a huge error here, because his name was written down as Richard Allen Whiteman, and then- He got misfiled and effectively lost.
Well, it was followed up immediately because- Yeah, it was followed up on immediately, but then- A guy went out, Dan Doolin, as we'll hear more about in a moment, went out and talked to the guy, but then that was the end of it.
And Doolin even recommended further contact be made, but that was the end of it.And so Kathy finds this and she takes the information to Tony Liggett and she's like, hey, look at this. And they asked her, what was the date that you found this report?
And I found this very poignant.
Oh my God, I think, did you hear someone say, ah?
Yes, the date that she found this report about Richard Allen was September 21st, 2022.And so the obvious question is, why on earth, after over two years, do you remember the exact date?And what was the reason?
That was the birthday of her deceased husband.
That was really sweet.And that, yeah, that I think talking with people afterwards and in between breaks, I feel like people found Kathy Schenck to be a very impressive and very credible witness.
And, you know, because she uncovered this thing, I mean, she played a huge role.And that has been certainly kind of underplayed over time because it wasn't exactly, you know, like we reported it.
But a lot of people were like, we don't know what happened with this.But what happened was that this woman uncovered. this thing and realize that something needed to be done about it.
And then there was the cross from Andrew Baldwin.I'd like to say a little something about that, but why don't you go first?Is there anything you wanted to say about the cross examination of Ms.Schenck by Andrew Baldwin?
I think the attorneys have a ton of different cross styles depending on what they're trying to elicit.I thought Baldwin was very polite to Kathy Schenck.It wasn't a particularly aggressive cross per se.It was my perception.
That is true.He did mention, oh, September 21st, 2022, you ended up giving this to Tony Liggett, and isn't it true that at that time he was running for sheriff?And McLean objected because that was outside the scope of the direct examination.
That means a cross-examination is only supposed to cover the materials and the subjects that were discussed in the direct examination. So if you wanted to do a cross-examination of Anya,
about cereal theft, and in the direct examination there was nothing mentioned about cereal, you really couldn't do that.
If I just had Anya on the stand to say, oh yes, I went to the beach and it was sunny, how can you get, you can't say, well, now let's talk about cereal.Does that make sense at all?
It makes sense.It makes a lot of sense.And this is something we see the defense run into again and again.They start bringing in all manner of things.They start kitchen sinking.
And one thing I will say about Judge Frances Gull today is that she was very much keeping that to a minimum.
She was sustaining a lot of objections on behalf of the prosecution around essentially getting off topic or asking and answering questions and various things around that nature.We can talk more about that later, but that was something we noticed.
And this comment about the sheriff's election, put a pin in that because we are going to hear more about that later.There was a juror question for this witness, and the juror's question was, how did you determine exactly?
that the name Richard Allen Whiteman was incorrect.And how she did that is when she went to file the narrative report and looked it up, she saw that the narrative report mentioned Richard Allen, who lived on Whiteman Drive.
And so she realized that a mistake had been made.
And she said, quote, being from this area, I knew there was a Whiteman Drive.So she was already sort of familiar with that street and put it together quite quickly.So next witness?Do it.
Next witness was Department of Natural Resources Officer Daniel or Dan Doolin.He's now a captain, actually, in the DNR and has 26 years of service with that organization.
And, you know, with the DNR in Indiana, this is a this is a governmental agency.They're law enforcement officers and they typically deal with things around like, you know, property enforcement, things around off-road vehicles, things around
I think fishing, hunting, you know, kind of wildlife situations, right?
And, you know, in a rural area, especially, that's an important thing if people are hunting, fishing, doing things like that.
So it's not typically the group that you would necessarily see in a murder investigation, but they are fully allowed to enforce any kind of laws in Indiana, right?
So it's not like it's like, oh, you have to stick with all of the natural stuff.There's an element where they can get involved, but they're not typically, is that fair to say?
That is the case.But in a case like this particular murder investigation of Liberty German and Abigail Williams, it was kind of an all hands on deck situation because everybody wanted to help.And so he goes and says, let me help.
And they said, you know, one thing you can do is you can run down some of these leads.
And one of the leads they gave him was this self-reported lead or tip from Richard Allen indicating that he had been in the area of the trails roughly around the time of the murders.
Let me set this up a little bit.I know a lot of people have had questions about dates around this because they wanna kind of cross check some things and I definitely respect that.So let's set it up.He's a lieutenant back then.
He's in charge of the district of the DNR in Lafayette and he's on vacation, gets back I believe February 16th, 2017.So two days after the bodies are found.
and he assisted in investigating the team and he started going to command center briefings and then February 18th is when he follows up on the lead involving Allen.
Yes, and so he makes phone contact with Richard Allen and says, I wanna talk to you, I wanna talk to you in person.
And the custom was that when you made contact with one of these people mentioned in one of these tips or leads, you would either meet them at their home and have an interview there, or the person would come to a law enforcement facility and the discussion would happen there.
I think this is interesting myself, Richard Allen did not want the officer to come to his house and he did not want to come to a police station.Draw whatever conclusions you wish from that.
So instead what he wanted to do was he said let's meet at a grocery store parking lot. kind of a strange thing.And they actually ended up having a meeting in the grocery store parking lot not too long after the initial phone call.
And during that meeting, Richard Allen said to Doolin that he was on the trails from 1 to 3 p.m., but a few moments later, as he was leaving the meeting with Doolin, he said, no, actually, that's not right. Actually, I was there from 1.30 to 3.30.
Doolin asked Richard Allen, did you see anyone else there?And Richard Allen said, well, I saw three girls at Freedom Bridge.
And he mentioned, Richard Allen mentioned he parked at the old Farm Bureau parking lot, which I think is also known as the CPS building.
It's he mistakenly called it the Farm Bureau parking lot, and this came up on cross.But Doolin said that through sort of discussing it with him and having a conversation through kind of like, OK, is that here?
OK, like almost figuring it out together.He was able to determine that what Alan was really talking about was the old CPS building.
Richard Allen said after he parked, he walked towards the Monon High Bridge.
He did not see anyone else except for those three girls, but he indicated he wasn't paying a lot of attention to anything because he was focused on looking at stocks on his phone.And Doolin did not record this interview.
Another thing, I think this is really important to stress, I think people heard Dan Doolin's name in the beginning of this and assumed that he was the person who made the mistake and got his name wrong and that therefore the delay was his fault and the misfiling was his fault.
That's emphatically not the case.
And I think a lot of people, frankly, should maybe think about waiting for all the facts until they post, I guess, because I mean, I mean, if people were going around screaming at this guy for, I mean, he didn't, this was not his issue.
He was given, Dispatch got the name wrong. How that happened exactly, we don't know, but it was handed to him and it's like, you're gonna interview Richard Allen Whiteman.
In his conversation with Allen, he quickly realized, oh, your name's not Richard Allen Whiteman, you're Richard Allen of Whiteman Drive.And he noted that and said that should be changed in his subsequent narrative report.
But that just didn't happen, unfortunately.And so I guess I'm just saying that like, with Doolin, that particular issue was not something that he seems to have caused based on this testimony.
And yeah, the three girls thing is obviously incredibly important because given how disparate some of the witness sightings are, I think they'd be a lot easier to dismiss entirely if you didn't have Richard Allen also saying he saw them back.
right, especially these three girls.You know, he, as usual, is his own worst enemy.One important part of the story was, quote, he was looking on a stock ticker on his phone as he walked, end quote.
And that was, that was, that was why he supposedly wasn't paying attention to who he was seeing.So Mullen, Doolin rather, prepares this and, uh, turns it in and that's basically it.
Well, what about the phone?
Oh, talk about the phone.
So this is, this is also very important.It came out, it became a big deal, um, as well.Yeah.At that time, Doolin also got, um, It was, it was, there was an acronym.
I don't remember it off the top of my head, but essentially there is a phone identification number that is specifically unique to your specific device.
So, you know, I have a phone and that's going to, you know, it's, it's, it's some sort of Android situation, but it's, got some kind of identification number that's different from every other device.
And Doolin gets this number, and thank you for bringing it up, because that is very crucial, because this is how we later know that police, even though they recovered nearly a couple dozen devices and phones from Allen's residence, the phone he was using in 2017 was never recovered.
Yeah, despite a lot of older phones being found.
And the only way we know that is because of Dan Doolin.
Yeah, we could have assumed that maybe an older phone was his phone at the time, but Dan Doolin got that and that's why we know that.
So let's flash forward to 2022.Steve Mullen calls Dan Doolin and asks if he remembers anything further about his interaction with Richard Allen.This is after it's been rediscovered by Ms.
Schenck and Doolin did not, but he'd looked up Richard Allen's name on his computer and he found out something interesting.Both Richard Allen and Kathy Allen had and gotten fishing licenses.It gave Rich Allen's name, contact information, and so on.
But what is interesting is that a couple of months or so after he applied for these, he went in and he changed a couple of details.He changed his weight and he changed his height.
Yeah, he went from 5'4 to 5'6 and then I think he had a weight change of about 15 pounds.So that's odd.That is odd.Especially the height change.You can gain or lose weight.Can't really change your height at that age.
So I can speculate about that, but why don't you speculate amongst yourselves?
And Doolin also noted that he didn't really remember this interaction at all until,
The phone call from Mullen, right?
But no, but until specifically one, it all came back to him when he remembered the stock ticker element of the story.That was what triggered the memory.Like, Oh, I remember the whole thing.
Like at first it was like, who, you know, and like, did I do that?It sounds like Doolin was running around doing a bunch of these interviews at the time and, and doing different tasks and whatnot.And, and, you know, this is,
This is something that doesn't really surprise me given what happened, because one big question that you may have is, well, Doolin interviewed this kind of random middle-aged guy who says he was at the scene back right in 2017.
So why wouldn't he have checked in on that later on or kind of gone to the investigators and say, hey, remember that guy I talked to?What happened with that?Did you clear him?
And yeah, I can understand wondering that, but it sounds like these kind of early days were a bit chaotic and you know, sometimes there's an element of like moving on to the next thing.
It sounds like he recommended that this be followed up on and it wasn't.And I feel like maybe he's gotten a lot of kind of outsized blame for that.
And I guess it's like, it's kind of like this fog of war situation where you have all this stuff going on and you're trying to help deal with a tragedy.And if you talk to like a dozen guys,
maybe they blur in together to a certain extent and you don't realize the importance of just one of them.
And you think that perhaps like, well, I said to look into it, so people must have looked into it and he's just one of the witnesses or he's just, you know, some guy looking for attention and they found out he wasn't really there.
I can understand that.And then you just kind of, it fades from your mind.I'm not, I'm not saying that's definitely what happened here, but Doolin ultimately was not able to account for why he forgot it.
But I guess I just, I think it's better to have, I don't know.What do you think?
Yeah, I agree with you.I agree with you.We shouldn't have a rush to judgment.I wanted to talk a little bit about the cross-exam by Brad Rosey, and before I do, I wanted to get your opinion.
It seemed to me there were some exceptions, but it seemed to me that generally today the defense attorneys did not bring their A-game.
And I will give you an example of that.During this cross-examination, Brad Rosey started talking about
Oh yeah, you had this meeting with him at the grocery store, and then for some reason he started talking about, yeah, there's grocery stores in Delphi, there's one around the corner here, there's one around there, and McClellan said, objection, what's the relevance of this grocery store list?
He sounds like you, suddenly becoming obsessed with grocery stores.Was that Rosie trying to be relatable?Hey folks, the common people loves, check notes, grocery stores.Is he trying to redeem himself after the I'll dumb this down moment?
I would think maybe if he was talking to a Delphi jury, the Delphi jury would say, oh yes, he's naming grocery stores that I go to.This is a Fort Wayne jury.
I don't think he was trying to be folksy.It was a weird moment.But I don't know, maybe he has a real interest in grocery stores.
Can I just also say, like, this is, there was a lot of talk about, like, tip sheets and what was it, like, narrative sheets, like all these, and every time they said sheet, I had like a, I like froze and it was like, oh my God, what did we do?
Why are we in this?It was awful.They kept, I'm very tired.And so I was not prepared for that.But, okay.
I had something else to say about the cross-exam.Was there anything else you wanted to say about it?
I have a question.I've noticed this a couple times, and I don't want to be paranoid, but I was just more curious.Is this like a little strategy?
I've noticed a few times that Baldwin and Rosie in particular will mess up a major but seemingly small detail, like a date.
That's a strategy.They'll be like, oh yeah, on February 16th, 2017.They'll be like, no, February 18th.
He would say, oh yeah, you talked to Richard Allen on this day, didn't you?And then the witnesses know I actually talked to him on this other day.
So I guess the hope would be that the witness would agree to the wrong day and then you can attack their credibility or their memory.
So that's something they do?I just didn't know if that was... That's not uncommon. That's wild.Like, so you really have to pay attention on the standards or you're not agreeing to the wrong date.I was just curious.They do that a lot.
And it's like, I guess, I mean, is there any risk of them sounding like they don't know what they're talking about?I don't think so.No, not at all.They just kind of breeze right by them like, oh, yeah, OK, whatever.
But I want to talk about another thing about this cross, and this also gets to my point about how, in my mind, they did not bring their A-game today.
Because for some reason, Rosie started to say, oh yes, so somebody tried to change Richard Allen's height and weight on his license, but you know, How do we know that was Richard Allen?How do we know?
Because couldn't anybody just get online and randomly say, I'm Richard Allen, a CVS employee.I'm going to change my height.And so he brought that up.
Then in redirect from McClelland, Dan Doolin was able to say, well, I know it was Richard Allen because I was able to see the credit card he used to purchase the phishing license and all of the emails associated with this account and the IP address and all of these are very clearly linked back to the real Richard Allen, so there's no doubt.
that this was done by the real Richard Allen.So why on earth, why did Rosie raise an issue and stake some credibility on it, only to have it totally demolished a few moments later?That was an odd moment.
Also, I mean, listen, I think it's really weird that he changed his height and weight on there.But I mean, isn't there an element of like, Couldn't they almost be like, just like, maybe he made a typo?Like, you know what I mean?
Like, you don't have to make it be like this whole like, well, someone hacked him or like his wife did it for some reason, and she wanted him to be specifically two inches taller.You know, it's, I agree.
They kind of just made themselves- I'm sure there's a perfectly innocent reason for why a man might want to have the government have an incorrect description of his physical appearance that has nothing to do with trying to evade responsibility for a crime.
So there's some juror questions.
Oh, and also I will say Richard Allen appeared to be nodding at one point when when Brad Rosie was like explaining something.There's there's something sometimes that feels to me personally, and this is my own subjective opinion.You can disagree.
And I'm just saying this as someone who's in the room with him.And it's not always this is not always how I feel about how he's reacting to things.
But occasionally, especially when we're kind of getting that, like nodding along to testimony or nodding along to his lawyer's explanation of things. There's something somewhat performative about it.Yes.Very performatively.Yeah.Oh, yeah.
That's a really good point. It's like, okay, it's odd.There was a lot more odd behavior today, but that was something I noticed, and that is something I've been consistently noticing.
And we'll talk more about it later, but I will say that Richard Allen generally in court seems to be growing less and less comfortable.
And we'll give you some examples of that a little bit later. Uh, the juror question, uh, the first time you interviewed Richard Allen, what was his hair like?
And I guess that was a question because we've had some different descriptions of rich guy and Dan Dumont said he did not remember.Mhm. Shall we move on?
I should mention that that witness was presented by Prosecutor Nick McClelland and the first witness of the day, Kathy Shank, was prepared and produced by Tracy Diener.
not Tracy Diener, Stacy Diener.I apologize to Ms.
Diener and her family.I'm very, very, very tired.
Meanwhile, we're like pronouncing Latrell's name like a billion different ways.We're falling apart.People are correcting us.We can't help it.We're just swerving into it.So we apologize.Um, but yeah.
You want to talk about the next witness?
Uh, sure.Let's, let me flip ahead.
Which is also, uh, presented by prosecutor Nicholas McClelland.
Um, oh, can I just, let me see what you're looking for.Uh, next one, Steve Mullen, right?
So he's of course the Carroll County, uh, and let me just before that, cause I found something kind of amusing.Um, at one point judge gold told. Rosie, I don't know if you remember this.I do.Yeah.I thought this was kind of wild.
Um, you know, I thought Rosie was starting to spiral, even though I did not, I did not necessarily feel Doolin was like a formidable witness.Like he, like, you know, like him saying, like, I don't remember why, like, I forgot this.
Like, you know, there were some, there were some openings there for the defense.I don't feel like they really got them.He started to just kind of seem to be fumbling.And at one point Gull basically stopped it and said, impeach him.
If you're going to impeach him, impeach him properly.
So it was like, did not get off to a great start.So let's go to Steve Mullen.This is the Carroll County Prosecutor's Office investigator.
And earlier he was the police chief and we've heard from him a few times in this trial.
So you talked about on September 21st, 2022, Tony Liggett called him with the news about what Kathy Schenck had found.So Mullen reached out to then Lieutenant Doolin about it.And then they set out, he and Liggett set out to kind of try to
figure out some stuff about who this Richard Allen was.
One thing they found out was that no one had spoken to Richard Allen since Dan Doolin, and Richard Allen actually had two cars registered to him.They got the information about the cars, and then they looked at this Hoosier Harvest video.
which shows traffic in the vicinity on the day of the murder, and they're looking for a car that could be Richard Allen's, and they believe they find it.
Yes, so he had a 2006 Ford 500 and a 2016 Ford Focus.
and they believe it's the Ford Focus.And they find it in this video.And what's interesting is they find it, it appears in the video at 1.27 p.m.heading towards the trails.And of course Richard Allen said he went there at 1.30, so that fits.
And what is interesting – it seems to be the Ford Focus.And so what's interesting is Tony Liggett goes to the CVS where Richard Allen works.And Richard Allen has parked his car there and is inside doing whatever he does at CVS.
And Richard – Tony Liggett finds the car and he takes pictures of it. And so this gives them the ability to get a better idea of what exactly this car looks like and whether or not it might have any unique features.
And one of the features they find on it is that it has rims on its What do you call those things?
Wheels.Wheels.Rims on the wheels.Oh, God.I don't know, Kevin.
It has spokes on the rims.And because it has spokes on the rims, you can actually see light through it.
And on this Ford Focus that they see on this traffic video, they can't see well enough to see the lights on this plate, but they can see that they can see light through the rims.
And it's there at the exact same time that he said it would be.I have a question for you. Did they show this video?
Because we were in the corner, and I don't know, we didn't see, in that portion of the hearing of the trial date, we were in a place where we couldn't see, but did they actually play the Hoosier Harvest store video for people?
I don't believe they did, but they did give, if my memory's correct, they did give the jurors still images of it.
I was just curious, because I was curious about how clear the video was, but it sounds like we don't know. And correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like that car believed that the prosecution alleges is Allen's car was headed West on CR 300 North.
Okay.And appears at 1 27 35 seconds.So again, this is something that at the very least resembles his car that he drives and is also appearing at the exact same time he's told Dillon he was getting there.
So at this point, they're like, you know, maybe it's time to talk to this guy.So they drive out to Richard Allen's house on October 13th, 2022.And Richard Allen agrees to come in for an interview.Steve Mullen says he Mirandizes the man.Kathy is off.
Oh, so they asked Richard Allen, What is your story?What happened on February 13th in your world?And Richard Allen says, well, my wife Kathy was off work.I also had the day off. No, pardon me.I don't think Kathy was off work.
I don't know why that says that in my notes, so strike that from the record.
I think he was off work and she was working.
Richard Allen said he's off work, so he goes to his mother's house in Peru.
Well, first thing we heard Peru, we heard Peru, we heard Mexico, and we also heard Miami County just north of Peru, but they're in the Peru area.Did you think we were going to leave Peru alone after all of this time?
I mean, isn't that like, I mean, like this case took us into Peru for a very long time.So it is a little bit surreal to hear this for me personally, and to be able to, you know, report it at this point.
So he leaves his mom's place in the vicinity of Peru at 11 or 11.15 on that date.He goes home, he gets his jacket, the blue Carhartt jacket, and he goes to the trails.He says he passes three girls.He's on his phone looking at his stock ticker.
And he now claims he was at the trails from 12 to 130.And he says he walks onto the Monon High Bridge and he walks to the first platform.And he says he was indeed driving the Ford Focus.He says he usually drove to the trails through the city.
But Mullen says, and this becomes a point of contention, Mullen says that Allen indicated that he may have gone through the country route.
And that's important because for him to be on the video, the car video, driving in the direction that he was, he couldn't have taken the city route.He would have needed to take the so-called country route.
And to back up a little bit, the platform, him saying he went on the platform of the bridge is really important because Betsy Blair describes seeing bridge guy standing on the first platform of the bridge, at first kind of looking up,
off upstream and then turning to face her.So that's a problem for him.
I know Betsy Blair described seeing a much younger man at first, although frankly, from her testimony the other day, she seems to have backed off that in a major way and concedes he looked young to me, but I saw him for just a moment and then I left and his hair that I thought was poofy brown hair could have easily been a hat.
So That plus the fact that he's putting himself on that platform around that time is bad for him.That's really bad.
It's very, very bad for him.
It's not like, I mean, it's on the same level for me as the, oh, I saw this group of girls and they saw me.And then it's like, you know, this woman saw me on the platform and yes, I was definitely on the platform.
He's again and again putting himself in a place where he does not wanna be.
At some point during this interview, they show him a picture of Bridge Guy.And Richard Allen said, well, if this picture was taken with the girl's camera, there is no way it can be me.Kind of an odd remark.
It's a strange, I mean, it's a weirdly wordy response.You would think someone would just say, no, that's not me. I guess he's trying to say like, oh, I didn't kill anyone, so if that's related to the murder situation, can't be me.
But yeah, I don't know.I guess people when they're nervous can say weird stuff.
As we prove on a regular basis on this program.We then had lunch break and came back for cross-examination from Andrew Baldwin.
Do you want to talk about how Alan was acting first?Because this is when we saw some of that weird behavior we had mentioned.
Yeah.Why don't you talk about that?
So he's like scowling.So, you know, they don't he's not chained up at this.That would be incredibly prejudicial for a jury to see him like that.
So they have him just out and he's surrounded by guards who are like wearing suits and like they don't look like, you know, they're like they're not in their uniforms or anything. And so, you know, he's in the he's in the the well of the court.
He's like, frankly, scowling at the people in the gallery.He's or I don't know if he's scowling at them or he's like staring through them.He's like standing with his like fingers and knuckles like pressed against his mouth.
I don't know whether he was. like biting his nails necessarily, or just kind of like, he kind of had them up against his mouth.I don't know whether they're in his mouth or not.
And then at one point I noticed him just kind of repetitively again and again in an, you know, frankly ominous given what he's alleged to have done, but stroking his neck. and while staring down his nose at people in the gallery.
There's been a couple times where I've seen him look intently towards the gallery, and I think I know what he's doing.I think he is perhaps trying to make eye contact with his family at times, and I think we can all understand that.
In a situation where we were facing something as huge as this, maybe having a nice smile with your wife or your stepfather, your mother, sister, whatever, maybe that's a source of comfort and strength.
So I think that doesn't really strike me as odd, but this was pretty weird.And I think his behavior has gotten a lot more similar to what the kind of weirdness we saw pre-trial.
And I don't really judge necessarily that because you can have someone who has mental health issues or is under a lot of stress, I'm not saying, oh my God, he was acting weird, so therefore he's guilty, just like I would think it was really stupid.
You know, you wouldn't say like, oh, he's really normal, so therefore he's innocent.You just have to kind of look at the evidence.
But I think what I'm trying to say here is I personally feel having seen his behavior devolve and him seem really much more nervous, I think this trial is on some level having a negative impact on him.
Yes, I think it is proving to be an ordeal for him.He seems to be, in some fashion, deteriorating before our eyes.
And this makes me wonder, like, I mean, we were told that he wanted to go to trial, right?
Yeah, it makes me feel that if this trial actually runs as long as we've been told and as long as I fear, what condition will he be at the end of it?
Yeah, I just, you know, we were like, he confessed a bunch of times and said he wanted to get right with God.And then, and then that seemingly changed.
And, you know, it's not lost on me that in one of the phone calls where he's confessing, his wife, Kathy says, I'm going to call Brad, presumably Brad Rosie, one of the attorneys.And it's like, I just,
I hope that this is what he wants personally, not his family and not the attorneys.I imagine, you know, a good attorney is going to want to fight for their client.I get that.And a family is going to want to fight for someone they love.
I get that too.But ultimately, if he doesn't want this process, which is, I imagine quite grueling, then, you know, that is kind of a travesty.
So let's talk about this cross-exam.After lunch, Andrew Baldwin walks up to Mullen and says, you are so desperate to have that car on the video, be Richard Allen's car, that right before lunch you lied to this jury.
Yeah, I did a little blood and thunder opening.
and McLeanland objected, of course.And the lie, allegedly, is that Mullen said that Richard Allen said that sometimes he took this other route to the trails.
And Baldwin very theatrically said, he never said that in that interview, here's a transcript, I want you to show me where he said that.And then there was, how would you describe this?
The world's longest pause?
as Mullen is looking through the transcript, looking for this.
And then at one point, it was so tense.
It was so, so tense.And at one point Mullen says, well, Mr. Baldwin, I'm having trouble locating it.And, uh,
And I was like, oh my, at that point I was like, oh man, he just impeached him pretty hard.That's what my initial reaction was when he, when he.
And then there is another long, long wait.And I don't know how long these waits were.They felt like hours.
Obviously they were not.And then, uh, eventually Mullen finds what he was looking for.How would you describe that?
he, um, he essentially, let's see what Mullen said was, um, like he found something talking about a loop.Right.And it was like kind of indicating that Richard Allen, um, might have,
Like a kind of agreeing that he might have possibly gone the other way, but it was kind of it was more ambiguous It was a bit ambiguous.So But it seemed to open the door to that I mean, OK, can I just say this?I mean, I don't know.
I mean, I get everyone.It's lawyers and they're going to do this and whatever.But like, I mean, like when we're when we're talking about all of this consternation over like loops and which way to go and know this was his normal route.
I mean, like, I don't know if you're having a day where you end up murdering some people.Maybe you go a different route.
Or maybe you lie or frankly, it's freaking you know, it's years ago Maybe you just don't remember like I guess I just I didn't you're not saying he's guilty.
No, I'm not saying he's guilty I'm just saying like I feel like sometimes the defense like kind of is a little bit black and white and they're thinking and they can be very much like You know, he would always do this.He would never do that.
And it's like, I don't know.Sometimes I might drive a different way to target.I guess it's just like I'm sick of the defense overstatement.I don't that doesn't make him guilty or even I think I mean, it was I really thought Baldwin had won at first.
That that round with with Mullen, I really did, because I was like, oh, dang, I think Mullen was taking a really long time to read that entire interview.Yeah.
to get to the part like I think he like I mean I think he read like dozens of pages or something it was but anyways what did you think about the moment again I was I was I literally wrote down he should take the L for Mullen yeah because it was it was it was awkward
And I was like, dang, like he's, you know, Baldwin got him and that, that could be pretty, like, you know, pretty intense impeachment.
But then Mullen found something.
So I mean, like, yeah.Can I see more like a draw?Um, or, you know, or even like, you know, maybe, maybe Baldwin's overstating things a bit.And I'm just like, I don't know.
I, I, I guess I just, do you have a sense of why this is become such a big deal?Because I get like that people can't ever break their habits or change a route or anything like that.Like what,
I mean, it's obvious defense attorneys are going defense attorney, and that means if they find something they can attack or say, oh, here's a discrepancy, these things don't add up, then it's basically their job to poke at it.
Naturally, I'm not blaming them.I'm just more of saying from a person who at this point is just sort of interested in getting to the truth, I found none of this compelling on either side, frankly.It was just kind of like, okay,
You know, I'm curious about the video, would love to see how that looks.You know, is that kind of a nice crisp image that really seems to be of a Ford Focus?Is it blurrier than that?I don't know.
It can't be super crisp because you can't see the license plate.
No, but if, I don't know, I would just be curious about what quality it is. Yeah, this was a very contentious back and forth.
Yes.There were a few juror questions.
Oh, and Nick kept on, I will say this, Nick McClelland kept on hitting Baldwin with like things like, you know, that he was, quote, imputing facts into the question that are just inaccurate.Quote, He's misquoting the transcript.
So he kept on accusing Baldwin himself of being inaccurate and misstating.Now, we didn't have the transcript in front of us, so we're not able to say.We're not able to judge.Who's right.But that was something.Baldwin's accusing Mullen of lying.
Well, McClellan's accusing Baldwin of lying.So we're having kind of this showdown here.
juror questions to Steve Mullin.Were you in an interview where Richard Allen said he did not remember which way he took?And the answer was yes, he did say that.
So another juror question, did you investigate how many black Ford Focuses there were in Delphi?And the answer to that was no.And the other juror question was, did you look to see if his other car was on that video, and the answer to that was yes.
He did look, and I guess it wasn't.
Yeah, and that was the Ford 500.
The next witness, also presented by Nick McClelland, was Tony Liggett.Tony Liggett is currently the Carroll County Sheriff.In 2017, he was a detective.
And he told the story of how back in September 2022, as we've mentioned many times on this particular episode, Kathy Schenck makes this discovery, she brings it to him, and Tony Liggett reviews it, and there's some things about it that really get stuck in his mind.
because he's noticing that it has that detail about the three girls that he says he saw.And he knows from his experience working this case that the person the three girls saw was, in his mind, Bridge Guy.
So if this guy is saying he saw those girls, the pieces are coming together in his mind, and he's thinking this could very well be Bridge Guy.
Absolutely.He talked about, um, you know, in terms of evidence around this, uh, timestamp on, uh, one of the pictures taken by that group of girls for 1 26 PM.Um, and this is at a bench, not, not too far away from the freedom bridge.
And, um, you know, I, talking about the Betsy Blair, seeing this guy on the first platform, Sarah Carbaugh, all these different kind of witnesses where it's kind of hemming in bridge guy and showing his movements.
And then he talked about the video that Libby took and talked about how it had been enhanced basically to stabilize it.
I think what they did was they took the image of Abby walking across the bridge and then they keep that right side up and as much in the center of the image as they can.And they also improved the audio and then they played
That version of the video from start to finish and this time I actually saw bridge guy and I saw him very clearly and what I saw absolutely freaking terrified me.This was awful Talk about it.
Well this time because it's not the because the it's not swirling around I I think
I had the impression like oh he must be really far away or kind of this small dot because I can't see him because I think I was just disoriented and like you're taking in when you first watch this thing you're taking in so much information you're like okay I'm seeing the bridge now some shoes now Abby and things are twirling around it it's just
It's a lot and like you're trying to listen to what they're saying and it's just difficult.Um, with it stabilized, you can very, very, very clearly see bridge guy behind Abby.
I am not, I would be a useless eyewitness because I think I, I have a, I have trouble as you know, I'm dealing with I think time and distance.I don't have a really good sense of what, how far away things are typically.
And to me he looked, disturbingly close.
He looked disturbingly close to Abby.I also felt the sound was much clearer.I heard all the things I heard before.I heard them much clearer.And they asked Tony Liggett, what what do you hear on this?
And he first of all, he said it's really easier to hear the sounds on this if you use headphones.
And he's listened to it hundreds and hundreds of times.
This is his interpretation.
Abby says, is he right here?Don't leave me up here.Libby says.
That be a gun.No path here.Have to go down.And then the man says, guys.
And the girls say hi back.
And then Liggett says he hears the sound of a gun rack.And at that point, the defense objected.But I want to say, I heard the gun rack when the video was played in court the other day.
It's very subtle, but I noticed it.
And I heard it even more clearly on this enhanced version.So you heard it too?
And then after the sound of the gun rack, the man says, down the hill.
It's even more horrifying when it's stabilized, I swear to God.I mean, the other one was scary, but this is just awful.It's just awful to see them get hunted down by this creep.
He talked about, he talked again.
Oh, and that was stricken from the record, the note about the gun racket.
Yeah, there was an objection.
What was the objection based on?Because it was granted, I mean, Judge Gull sustained it.
I think essentially it's a little bit of speculation there because the sound I heard was consistent with the sound of a gun rack but basically all I know is I really I heard a metallic noise and maybe there's something else there that could have explained it.
I don't know.Sounds like a gun rack to me but I
Yeah, I agree.But I, I, I understand.
And again, like she, you know, she sustained some, some defensive objections to, I think the defense ran up more, more objections because I think some of their cross examinations were pretty off the wall, frankly, but yeah.
I don't know how much detail we have to go into about this next section because it's essentially, you know, Mullen talked about the things he did with Liggett and in this section Liggett talked about the things he did with Mullen, which is basically the same thing.
Liggett goes to CVS, he takes pictures of Richard Allen's car.Here's a new detail.He noted that Richard Allen's car was parked backed in and people who saw the vehicle parked at CPS said that it also was parked backed in.
He also found that Allen had a lifetime handgun permit.
They found on that Hoosier Harvest video a car whose description matched Richard Allen's car.So they go to Richard Allen's house and ask for an interview.And Richard Allen, as we mentioned a minute ago, he talks about, yeah, I was there that day.
I saw these three girls.They were leaving as I was arriving.
Yeah, he said that he was out on the rails, but he on the trails rather He changed the time from noon to 1 30 as mentioned and he said he was wearing either a blue or black Carhartt jacket as well as a skull cap that he would keep in the pocket of his jacket and he also Liggett said quote he was kind of wishy-washy about where he parked and
Then they talked about the fact that there was a search done at Richard Allen's house on, I believe, October 13th, 2022.We're going to hear a lot more about that search from another witness.
But meanwhile, Liggett says one thing they found was a .40 caliber gun.And I thought this is an interesting detail.
Richard Allen had kind of a keepsake box where he kept some special pictures, a letter from his mother, and also in there was one unspent round.
So I'm not sure what it was about that particular unspent round that seemingly had some sentimental value to him, but I'm sure we can speculate.
They found in the home a blue Carhartt jacket, which is what bridge guy appears to be wearing in the video In the nightstand in the master bedroom, they found Alan's six-hour handgun.
Yes Yes, and and and when asked about well, are you sure that was his side of the bed Liggett mentioned that?Alan CVS clothing was piled up on on that side of the bed on the right side of the bed.So he
That was a kind of good indication that was his side.
And then Rosie began the cross-examination, and he started talking about, oh, when all this was going on, the sheriff's election was going on.Hmm, folks?
And Nick McCleland objected, and there was such disgust in his voice when he said, is the defense contending that he made an arrest with no evidence to better his position in his election?
with no evidence, and there was such disgust in his voice when he said it.
And it just occurred to me when he said it, this defense team, for reasons I have never understood, I have never understood this, they have really been assiduously courting YouTubers, and not just any YouTubers, the most irresponsible, untrustworthy YouTubers.
Yes, the most irresponsible, untrustworthy YouTubers imaginable.They've made them their base.They've made them their focus group.They love YouTubers.They court these YouTubers so much, they actually have a YouTuber sitting in a defense seat.
So they're not shy about it.But the problem is when you court these particular type of YouTubers, when you make these particular type of YouTubers your focus group, you think that the things they respond to is what other people will respond to.
But when McLeelan indicated his disgust with this notion that this arrest was somehow engineered because of the election, I looked over at the jury and they were responding to McLeelan.
And also keep in mind, we had just heard Kathy Schenck discovered this tip on her late husband's birthday, and now they're saying, I guess she was part of a conspiracy too?
Oh, we're all part of the conspiracy at this point, Kevin.
Because if you think this was just cooked up because of the election, then she has to be in on it. And I don't think that's an idea that would really go well in front of this jury from what I saw.
YouTubers, these irresponsible YouTubers in particular, love that sort of thing.
I saw one of the defense investigators in that row nodding vigorously at this point.It's like, yeah, I don't think this is carrying as much water with most normal people.
I think they should have picked a focus group of normal people.
Let me just say this.How about you attack law enforcement? I'm, yeah, I'm going to say it, about the mistakes made, about things like the delay, doesn't this indicate sloppiness?
Focus, focus on that.I want to say one more thing about this sheriff's election thing, because it's something that people have been saying for a long time, that maybe this was cooked up for the sheriff's election.
I want to tell you a fact of life about small town Indiana, because I grew up in small town Indiana. These are very red counties.
If you obviously go out and vote, I encourage you to vote, but if you live in one of these towns that is a very red county,
Whoever gets the Republican nomination and whoever has the support of the organized Republican Party in that county, they're going to win.
They're going to win.People do down-ballot voting.
That's just a fact of life.Tony Liggett had the support of the Republican Party. some independent ran against him, but I'm here to tell you... It was not a razor-thin margin.
It was not a razor-thin margin, and I'm going to tell you he would have won that election even if the arrest had not been made.
Yes, there's no question in my mind these people are delusional.
And just keep in mind, again, Kathy Schenck discovered this on her late husband's birthday, and it seems we now know every step the investigators made, and would we have preferred for them not to do anything or to wait till after the election?
Yeah, that's my question.All right, so you get to probable cause to arrest a guy for brutally murdering two kids. And what you're going to all the optics are so bad.You know what?Why don't we do this in December?Maybe you'll kill again.
But I mean, like, like, what are we talking about?You know, I mean, like, like, I oh, God, he was always going to win that election.It wasn't he wasn't particularly close.
And as you said, you know, anyone I looked at the election records in Carroll County for the sheriff's race. You know, it was always going to whoever got the Republican nomination and had the institutional backing.And that was it.
OK, an independent coming in and scooping up some extra votes and whatever, and it becoming contentious on social media does not make it. Anything, anything else?I'm sorry.Like, I guess I'm just like, and you know what?
I think they lose people because instead of focusing on like maybe actual mistakes that you could criticize, it just becomes this whole like you have to buy into this corrupt Carroll County you know, mega conspiracy, and I just think it's stupid.
I don't, from what I saw on the faces of those jurors, I don't think it plays with them.
I don't think it plays with them.I think these guys end up just looking kind of ridiculous.
They made a bizarre decision to go after these YouTubers.
Well, you know, Brad Rosie, every time he breathes, you know, this has a very large following on social media, like sounding giddy talking about like, oh, the media has been paying a lot of attention.
It's like, you know, it's just I don't know, there's something very like slimy about it.It's like it doesn't sound the way they the way he talks about it, like you kind of are like, OK, well, you're obviously really excited about it.
I don't know if anyone else here is, but it just it they I don't.I feel like I said in the beginning, I was kind of picking on Rosie that he had an ad. tone problem or an optics problem.
But today I kind of saw it as everyone on the defense team running into that a little bit.
They did not bring their A game.
Rosie also asked Sheriff Liggett, would you acknowledge that early on there was a breach in the crime scene?
Leaked photos, and Liggett looked puzzled and said, when was this?
Because, of course, the leaked crime scene photos that everybody knows about was just a year ago, and the people responsible for leaking them, well, they came from, the photos were leaked from the defense team.
by Mitch Westerman, Andrew Baldwin's former employee and friend.So I mean, I mean, it's pretty bold for them.
Because they had lax security at the defense team's office at the very least.And that's what led to that.
But I think it's bold to bring that up.I think what they're referring to here is what were purported to be leaked searcher photos that were like texted to somebody and then leaked.
And what they show is sort of some blurry pictures of what looks a little bit like clothing in the creek. Not very high quality.Ultimately, those are searcher volunteers.Is it ideal that those got out?Absolutely not.
Is it somehow like law enforcement's fault?No.I mean, that's on whoever texted them out from the search parties.
If you want to argue that law enforcement- Should have seized everyone's phones?Let me finish.
If you want to argue that law enforcement bears responsibility for the leaked searcher photos, then you need to accept responsibility for your own role in the leaked crime scene photos, which actually show bodies, because the role of the defense attorneys in that was much more prominent than the role of law enforcement in the searcher photos.
They were also talking about the sticks on the bodies and whether they were there to conceal or to carry some hidden message.
And Rosie said, you would agree with me that whoever did that, placing the sticks on the bodies, did a poor job of concealing them.And Lincoln said, well, no one saw them.
Yeah.Also, I mean, I guess again, I have a problem with some of the black and white thinking of the defense team.It's like, I can immediately think of a scenario that covers this.And again, I'm not saying that I'm right.
I'm just saying that I don't like being told like, well, if not this, then it must be that.And it's like, no.I mean, who's to say that
He some whoever the killer was started to cover them up for whatever reason and then felt like I just need to get out of here or heard something and it freaked them out.I mean like I can immediately think of a scenario where it's covering it.
They're trying to cover them up either to conceal them or to undo the crime in the person's own mind. and just gets out of there without completing it.I mean, that's pretty obvious, right?
I mean, it doesn't have to be the guy putting a couple sticks and being like, well, done.I mean, I guess it's just like, I don't understand.
I don't like it when it's like, I can think of a scenario that completely thwarts that line of thinking immediately.
I think playing closer to the vest for the defense team would have been a boon because it wouldn't have forced the jurors to pick between like, obvious reason and logic and nuance and like Whatever Brad Rosie's yelling about them.
They spent an awful lot of time attacking Sarah Carbaugh and there was one particular exchange around that Pardon me, I believe you wanted to highlight
Yes, I did.I was pretty shocked by this.I'm kind of flipping around because I was taking a lot of notes at this point. So let me, let me try to find that for a minute.So they're, they're talking about the muddy and bloody witness.
Um, Rosie, like, okay.It seemed clear to me that what Sarah Carball was talking about, and again, like the defense should be pushing back on these witnesses.I mean, like that's their job.
I mean, it's not like they don't need to like take the witnesses out to tea and you know, but I think there's a way to firmly push back and defend your client without sort of ending up looking kind of like a jerk in the process. Is that fair to say?
Sometimes you want to look like a jerk.Sometimes you want to go, go crazy.But other times I think you actually might benefit from just being kind of like, you know, firm, logical.I don't know.
I thought Baldwin in his previous time crossing her did a good job of at least being kind of patient, even though I thought there was some level of kind of frustration or anger there. Like, he wasn't necessarily like yelling at her or anything.
But in this situation, Rosie's basically like, you know, did you know that Sarah Carbaugh spent, like Sarah Carbaugh talked about like having extreme anxiety and different mental health struggles.And so, like,
I think that is something like if I mean, I thought this trial was going to be about mental health and like how people can, you know, do things that you don't expect them to do because they're under a lot of stress, which is, you know, sort of what they're arguing for Richard Allen.
But apparently when this woman sees something that turns out to be horrifying, Rosie's basically bashing her for spending three weeks panicking.And like, did you know that?
And and like it just like fired back with like, you know, I think like it did an amazing job.
Countering some of this I thought he was very calm But he was kind of hitting back a bit here and there and he said no two girls were killed I can understand panicking so it's like I just felt like Rosie handed him an opportunity to look like I Don't know like he had some emotional intelligence and was empathetic with somebody another human being it like I guess it was just like I don't know like why are we do it?
At another point, Rosie would say, you know, in this video, you see Bridge Guy and he then goes off screen and only then do we hear the voice.Is it possible?
the speaker who says guys down the hill is not bridge guy, but just someone else who basically just happened to be there.And Liggett said, well, that's a stretch.
That was amazing.There was one point where, you know, they're really trying to make this a thing with the FBI.Like, oh, the FBI was kicked out.And Liggett's like, you know, like, oh, the FBI came in and there was tension.
And Liggett was just like, no, they helped.Like, he just seemed like he wasn't like angry.He was just more like baffled. And then later on, you know, they were like, well, you know, Superintendent Carter, Doug Carter kicked them out in 2019.
And Liggett came back with quote, even after your 2019, if I needed something from the FBI, I called them.Like it was not a situation where they were like, you know, get out of Indiana.
Like Carroll County and the Indiana State Police didn't like ride the FBI agents out on a rail.It was just, I don't think they really worked on the case anymore.I'm sure there was internal tension.
I don't like, I mean, but like, but is that really, is the kind of inside baseball of like which agency is mad at the other? really the winning argument for this defense team?
Are we supposed to look at the Federal Bureau of Investigation, which is a organization that is as filled with talent and also flawed as any other in this country?
Are we supposed to look at them as like the bright, shining archangels of law and justice, where they're going to come in and magically solve everything immediately?And like, how dare these people these locals not let them in?
Or should we look at this as it's probably a complicated thing.They're providing some resources.Indiana State Police might have some of those resources already in terms of technology, not need them.And there might be some tensions.I don't know.
It's just like vaguely alluding to this nonsense.It just is like, where is this going?
It's a good question, and I want to give another example of an instance where I felt this defense team was not bringing their A game today, because Brad Rosey asked a question that you should not ask of a person as intelligent as Tony Liggett, because when you have a person as intelligent as Tony Liggett, and you ask a question like this, it's like pitching a really slow ball right down the middle.
which I think is a baseball reference.
Why are you asking me?And the question he asked was, you know, this bullet is so important.This bullet is a crime scene, which you say you link to Richard Allen.Isn't it a fact that this bullet is the only reason you arrested him?
and Liggett just kind of got a little bit of a smile, and he said, well, no, actually, there were other reasons.
For instance, his statement in which he placed himself at the crime scene, and he indicated he saw these three people, who saw Bridge Guy, and this other thing, and Lessee Blair, and also the fact that we were able to identify his car on the video going out there.
And so he like laid out the case, for Richard Allen's guilt and he laid it out not even mentioning the bullet and he did it because Brad Rosie asked him to.
I think when you kind of like I don't know.I think Brad Rosie's had a tough time in this situation oftentimes, like kind of taking on a persona perhaps.
And I'm sure, you know, like I'm not anything about his character in real life and in non-professional sense, but like, I feel like there's some of this kind of like looking down on other people situation.
And we've seen that with both the, you know, the perspective jurors and then with people he's crossing.I think that can really backfire if you end up really looking down on people and then you might underestimate them.
Rosie reminds me I'm gonna make a stupid comment, but it's I swear to goodness.
It's going somewhere I'm not just completely hallucinating and sleep-deprived although who knows Rosie sometimes reminds me I have a bit that I do sometimes to Kevin to annoy him Where and I'm also it's actually it's not really a bit.
It's actually totally serious But I have a very, very strong opinion, as some of you know, about apples.I am a Macintosh apple supremacist.That is my favorite type of apple.I think they're the perfect balance of sweetness and tart.They're pure class.
I sometimes go on a rant like the American consumer doesn't know what it's missing.I feel like Macintosh apples are not celebrated as much as they should be.I feel like they're not in as many grocery stores as they should be.
We all want our sweet treats and our kind of treacly, sugary apples.And what happened to the sensible, fresh goodness of the Macintosh?Why cannot that not once more become the paramount apple of the American heart, the apple of our eye, so to speak?
And, you know, if you like, That's my opinion, and I certainly feel very strongly about it, and I'm kind of yelling about it, and I'm dissing the other apples.
But at the end of the day, you're probably just standing there like, well, that's your opinion, Anya.People can feel differently.And that's kind of how I look at a lot of Rosie's arguments.They're not nailing it on the facts and logic.
It's just like somebody standing there ranting at you about what their preferred apple type is. Is that, I mean, is that unfair?What do you think?I mean, you're an attorney.I understand that they have to argue strenuously for things.
I just find it more convincing when you're taking a different approach than just trying to almost like browbeat everyone into agreeing with you. Cause that's sort of what it feels like sometimes.
That's what it feels like he does.
It's like if I yell and kind of like, you know, make dramatic motions with my hands, everyone will see that I am correct.And it's like, no, you kind of have to do a little more work than that.I think I don't, I'm not impressed.
I was really unimpressed today.I, I, I, I don't know.It's like, I don't know what they're thinking.I feel like they should have figured out some of this stuff doesn't play well and maybe gone with it.
I'm not even saying a different theory, just go with like a different kind of style.
I think a lot of it goes back, again, they cultivate this group of YouTubers.They have one sitting in the defense seats.Actually, they have two sitting next to them in the defense seats, I guess.It's, yeah, I don't know what to say.
I guess at the end of the day, we'll see how well this strategy ultimately served their clients and themselves.
Rosie talked about how he extolled Richard Allen. absolute hero for coming forward and calling in the tip line about his comings and goings at the trail that day like give this man a medal right now and
Like it's like, I don't know why he came forward.Like it's just, I don't know.It's just, it's not, I don't feel like it's going well right now for the defense.Maybe they can turn it around.
And then, you know, then one thing Rosie was like, Oh, you're saying that he parked, he backed into the parking space.That's not a real thing.Like, it's like, I didn't say it was pertinent.I just noted it.
Um, yeah, I was just, uh, didn't they kind of, Oh, this was, there was a kind of a twist at the end then, right?About the cell phones.
Okay.So Brad Rosie starts in on his thing, you know, like cell phones solve crimes, right?As an investigator, you know, this, you know, how cell phones solve crimes and you know, he's like, okay.And, um,
You know, like, and nothing on Richard Allen's cell phones ties him to Liberty or Abby, right?And Liggett responds, that's what's interesting.
And then he says that despite the fact that Richard Allen's story that day was that he was on his stock ticker on his phone on the trail, there's no evidence of him being on his phone at the trail that day.So I imagine he's not in the tower data.
Which makes I've been asking that for a long time.
So I'm glad he cleared that up because I've always wondered to me It's kind of a mixed bag because I actually think would be better for Alan in a way like I don't know like we already know he was there because he says he was there and other people saw him there and
But at least if you saw his phone, you could buy, okay, yeah, maybe he was on his stock ticker.I'm like, maybe he's someone else's bridge guy.But if his phone isn't there, why did he lie about that?
That's not something that can, you can't, if his phone was turned off, then he wasn't on his stock ticker.How do you account for this?How on earth does that get accounted for?That doesn't make any friggin' sense.
Next witness is a name you might recognize.It's ISP Trooper Dave Vito.He was really involved in the Kagan-Klein investigation.
He's been very involved in Delphi as a whole.
So we've seen him testify many times.He's very experienced at it.He's very articulate. So his role, what he was testifying about is he was present on October 13th, 2022 when Richard Allen's house was searched.
So he was there basically to verify some pictures from that search which were introduced.And these searches, these pictures from his search were interesting because they give us some new details, I think. I'll mention the pictures.
There was a picture of the outside of Richard Allen's house.And when that was displayed, Richard Allen started nodding.
Yeah.Again, I don't know.Performative nods.
There was a picture of another angle of the house.There was a picture of the 2016 Ford Focus in the garage.There was another picture of the 2016 Ford Focus in the garage.
And in this one, you could clearly see that they did have those rims where you could see light through them.
There was a picture of the inside of the garage.There was a picture of the garage workbench, which had on it lots of knives.
Box cutters.There was another picture of knives from the previous pictures.From the kitchen, there was a picture of a basket that contained keys, more box cutters, a couple of knives, and his CVS name tag.
There, can I just, okay, well, we'll talk about it later.So there was another picture of a plastic bag containing a whole mess of electronic devices and chargers.There was a picture, apparently there were also more phones found.
These weren't shown in the photographs, but more flip phones as well.
There was a picture that showed like maybe like a dozen phones.
There were two pictures of a whole bunch of knives they found inside the master bedroom.
OK, yeah, that we'll talk about that in a minute.It was the picture of the master closet, Richard Allen's closet, a gun case in the closet and some boots in the closet.
There was a picture of his Carhartt jacket from the front and from the back.And at least superficially, this Carhartt jacket appeared very similar to the garment worn by the man in the Bridge Guy video.
Yeah, in the master bedroom there's also the Sig Sauer .40 caliber firearm.
There's a picture also showing the serial number of that.There are actually several pictures of the gun.
And also of 40 caliber blazer rounds.Yes.Which is a Smith and Wesson blazer.
There was a picture of like a memory box.I think Liggett alluded to this earlier.And then there was a picture of the inside of the box, which includes some graduation cards, note from his mother in a 40 caliber Winchester round.
Mm hmm. And then there is this where we get to the pictures of the pictures the pictures Let me do a couple of things first.
There was a picture a close-up of the round from the box And there was a picture of the back of the round and then yeah, tell them about this photo album
There's like a photo album with pictures from like, I think it was February 2016, March 2016.
First, the photo album, there was a photo- Oh, the trails, right, okay.There was a photo album which was seemingly devoted to pictures of the Monon High Bridge and trails.
Yeah, and this- That seemed odd, and I saw a lot of jurors kind of perk up at that.
They did, and there was also, it was family, Allen family photos, Associated with the trails dating back to 2008.
So a long time Yes Yeah, and then there was a other pictures included February 2016 the caption I didn't I didn't have a good angle on this I felt but the caption which Vito read out was Ricky posing by a tree
And another one, March 2016, was fishing in Deer Creek.And then April 2016 was Alan looking down off the Monon Trail.So they seemingly spent a good amount of time there.
Yeah, and like, you know, they're from the area that's not by itself ominous, but a lot of these things by themselves are not ominous.Let me tell you something that I think is ominous. the amount of knives in the master bedroom.
I've never heard of that.What is, why do you have all the, what?I guess when I read the... search warrant receipt, I was kind of like, well, I don't know.A lot of people have a lot of knives.
And I'm the kind of person where I sort of like to buy in bulk sometimes.I might like to have a big drawer full of a specific thing that I need because I have a hard time finding things.And maybe that makes it easier for me.
So maybe you kind of acquire a bit of a knife collection.It's all laid out real nice.Or it's just something you use because you're fishing, hunting, whatever. Like, it didn't really bother me.
It bothered me seeing them all photographed in the master bedroom.Yeah, it's interesting.I mean, do you, like, can you think of a reason why they would be there?
I wouldn't want to go down that path.
Yeah, I don't want to think about that.It was off-putting.I guess it's just, I mean, that's what...
A lot of box cutters kind of like, I mean, Vito kind of was like, there's a basket where they have stuff in where they can kind of grab it and go for the day.So, you know, obviously box cutters, you know, I know he's a retail employee at CVS.
So, I mean, you could say that that's reasonable, but it seemed like there were box cutters frigging everywhere in this house, box cutters, knives, a lot, a lot, a lot of these bladed weapons.
So the cross-examination was done by Jennifer Ogier, and the decision was made that, well, the strategy we should use in this cross-examination is let's shine a spotlight on everything odd that was found in this search and then try to unconvincingly explain it away.
But to me, it just put an underline under all of these odd things, especially because the explanations, as you'll see, weren't all that convincing.And also, yeah, if you have a blue Carhartt jacket, that doesn't mean anything.
But if you have a list of like 10 things,
If you have a bridge guy starter kit in your house and something that looks exactly like your car is there at the time that you said it was there originally.
And you admit you were there.
Other people saw you and you say you saw them and then at some point.
Yeah, you've got a problem You have a problem, but I want to tell you about some of these questions She asked which again seemed to just put a spotlight.
This was terrible.I'm sorry.
It just puts a spotlight on every odd thing She said to Vito, well, it's not uncommon, is it, for people in Carroll County to go to the Monon High Bridge and take lots and lots of pictures?
And McLean interrupted and said, can I ask a question, a preliminary question for a foundation?And he asked Dave Vito, Trooper Vito, are you aware of what families in the area do?
And he kept on saying Carroll County and Tippecanoe County.
And David Vito said no.And so McLean then objected because then Jennifer OJ's question called for speculation.
Vito also like pointed it out accurately.And this is something we've heard again and again and we've heard again and again in our own reporting. Some people are like, yeah, I grew up with the Moan on High Bridge.I went there as a 16 year old.
And then some people have never heard of it.There's a divide in the community about this thing.I mean, some people are all about it. Others don't really know about it or they've never been there.
It's like, it's not like, it's not like, you know, Delphi forces you to walk across the bridge as some sort of initiation, right?You know what I mean?It's, it's, it's a bit hit or miss.
So to say that, like, to say that it's highly unusual for them to have that would be completely inaccurate.I don't think it is.I mean, that's, it might be a really nice time to spend as a family.
And if you have a bunch of photos to document that, then great.That's not really unusual out of the context of this whole thing, but, But at the same time, it's also not nothing.
So then she says, well, you know, we certainly saw lots and lots and lots and lots of knives there, but you know, he's a fisherman.
Who knows when a rogue fish might jump in your master bedroom.
You know, he's a fisherman, and it's not unusual, is it, Trooper Vito, for a fisherman to have lots and lots of knives?
And Vito looked confused, and after a moment he said, well, I don't really know how you'd use knives to fish except maybe spearfish?And OJ said, well, what if your lines get tangled?And Vito said, well, scissors?
Yeah, I think Vito is a city boy.
Well, I mean, it's just, I guess if like you're the defense attorney, you have to be like, well, that was a lot of knives.Then I, I don't, I don't think things are going very well.
Like, and then she was like, well, also, you know, to burrito, it's not unusual to have people to have lots and lots of phones or lots of box cutters.And of course, uh, the blue Carhartt jacket, that's not unusual.
And, and the six hour gun that has a bullet that matches a bullet found in the scene of the crime.That's not unusual, is it? Is it?Is it?
And then she said, is there anything about the car found in the garage?Is there anything about that car that links it to the murder of Abigail Williams or Liberty German?Yeah, this is great.And Vito said, yeah, sure.
It's on the video of the Hoosier Harvest store actually driving there.
At the time he said it was driving there.
And OJ kind of, I don't know, did she sigh?She said, well, was there anything inside the vehicle that linked it to the murder?And he said, no.And then she said, and all the knives, were there any knives you found that can be linked to the murders?
And Vito said, you mean found at the residence?
Yeah, that was interesting.
And she said, yes.And he said, well, in that case, no.
I don't, I don't think they have a murder weapon in this case, by the way, but it was interesting.It was funny.Here's the thing.Like, yeah, he did a good job of kind of pairing some of this stuff.
Um, it, let me just say this, you know, we can, we can dunk on the defense here.They have a hard job.Alan has made their jobs very difficult, but here's where I think they messed up.
One thing that could have actually helped in this specific instance is the jury knowing a little bit more about this mysterious, very twitchy man who's sitting in front of them making all sorts of weird faces all day.
Because if we knew a little bit more about him, we could contextualize not only some of what he's gone through, some of his behavior, but also things like why does he have so many knives?
If you can talk me through in your opening statement, what does a day look like for Richard Allen before any of this happens?
Maybe that includes fishing where he's filleting stuff with knives in a non-ominous way, or using his box cutters to open packages at the CVS and make sure he's kind of helping his employees I know this team members there get their stuff done.
You can kind of walk us through some of this and maybe put a nicer spin on some of it and make it less of a house of knives and box cutters and more of a happy home with a longtime married man and a little dog and a wife and everyone's happy.
And this is someone who couldn't have done this because they're so great, you know, give us something.Am I right?But having like this this guy be this like enigma for the jury, you know, like they're seeing him having these weird reactions and then.
you know, knife, knife, knife, box cutter, box cutter, like box cutters, like, you know, they don't know that he said anything about a box cutter yet, but they're going to soon.
And then they're going to think back, Hey, remember all those box cutters we saw?And remember how the pathologist said that it was probably, you know, it could have been a box cutter.
So, I mean, this is where getting to know Richard Allen and it just, why don't they want people to know their client?Like, what is the problem
They don't have to go into depth about like every, if he's ever done something bad, they don't have to like say that.They could just kind of give us the spin, give us the positives, right?Does it surprise you that they haven't done that at all?
A lot surprises me.Should we move on to the final witness?
Final witness of the day is Lieutenant Jerry Holman, and he was on the stand to discuss, again, the search at Richard Allen's house.
The lieutenant was actually in charge of supervising that search, and so the first thing he did was he did a walkthrough all throughout the house with a CSI, and they took pictures of the document, they took pictures of the property,
to document how it appeared at the beginning of the search.That way it would be easy to tell whether or not anything got damaged.
And Holman told Richard Allen, we're going to be careful as possible and try not to damage anything, but if we do damage some of your property, there's some paperwork you can fill out for, I guess, reimbursement.
And Richard Allen responded to that by saying, it doesn't matter, it's over.
Yeah, I think the gallery kind of, I don't know whether it was a pause, or everyone kind of was like, wait, what?
And then later on, Holman and Allen are in a car together during the search, and Allen is asking, did you detain my wife?And the answer is no, I think she'd gone to the bathroom.
So because the investigators were searching the house, she needed to use the restroom, so she drove off to go to her workplace. And so he asked, was my wife detained?No, he was concerned about this.
Holman said, I can drive you to go see your wife if you want at her workplace, if you would prefer that.And again.Alan said, quote, it doesn't matter, it's over.
After that, it was announced that the jury would get an opportunity to view the gun, the gun which the prosecution contends is linked to the bullet found at the crime scene.
Yes.And so they talked a lot about
procedures and how there's tracking on it and it's protected.And it was actually in a box that was inside another box.Holman gets it out, he reads the ID number.
And they're supposed to sign it.Whenever they take it out of the box, they're supposed to then seal it back in and sign the seal and maybe even date the seal so it can be kept track of and there's like a whole property record with it.
And then before the jury gets a chance to look at it, they say we need to clear this gun for safety purposes.And so Holman racks the gun.
I think three times, right?Three times.That was like the loudest sound in the world.
It was chilling because I think everybody there realized This sounds very similar to what we heard in the video, and this could have been one of the last sounds these poor girls heard.
It took my breath away when they did that.It was like, it was so loud, and it was just like, oh my God.
Yeah, your mind immediately goes, you know, when people say, well, I would have fought, and I would have, you know, like, done a, like a flying kick to the guy in the face, and then, you know, when you hear that sound,
you know, that, that does something and people are humans and you have fight or flight responses.And I mean, these are, these are two little girls.Okay.
So, I mean, whatever happened to them, you know, I think it, it seems very, very possible that you can force people to comply with you, especially children, when you have a gun and you indicate to them by racking it, that you are prepared to use it on them.
Then Andrew Baldwin gives his cross-examination He was upset that Holman did not record those conversations with Richard Allen and Holman was like, you know, I just thought I was giving him basic paperwork information and I wasn't you know, I mean, okay, but like isn't this so friggin like I
the whole story of Richard Allen has been him like running up to everyone from his psychologist to his wife and mother to warden John Gallop.
Oh, formerly of Westville prison and including Lieutenant Jerry Holman when they're basically saying something else to him and, and, and blurting out something troubling at the very least.I, this is not a confession obviously, but it's,
It's a troubling statement to make.And, and the other people are like, what?Like, you know, like, like basically it's like, hey, you know, like, here's some very basic procedure.
Here's what you do if we rip up your car, but we're going to try not to.It's over.What?
I mean, like, I don't know, like, that's really — And then Baldwin was like, well, you know, Richard Allen lived in a neighborhood, and there were police doing this search.Maybe he was just upset because the neighbors would see.What do you think?
And McClellan said, objection, that's speculation.And then Baldwin was like, well, you know, these witnesses, Sarah Carbaugh and Betsy Blair, are they even credible?And McClellan objected because that was outside of the scope.
And so it kind of cleared out to a close.
Yeah, definitely fizzled.It definitely fizzled.And then, you know, it was recess.
But that was the end of the day.
I mean, again, I don't want to overstate those statements.They're not confessions.They're not detailed.But if he was in.Yeah, I mean, they're not something that I think sounds particularly good.When you're looking at this. No.I mean, I don't know.
I mean, yeah, it would be pretty embarrassing to have your house raided like this, and I don't know.
I mean, have we heard, and again, context, have we heard about a Richard Allen who was such a pillar of his community that his neighbor's views of him meant so much to him that he would truly feel his life was over if they saw his good name besmirched by all of these Indiana State Police troopers flooding his property?
Have we heard about that?I haven't heard about that.So why, like introduce us to your main character maybe?And then maybe we can decide, well yeah, maybe he was so sensitive that that would actually prompt that reaction.
But beyond that, that's a weird statement to make.
Yes.I don't know what else to say about it.
Well, I guess we'll find out more tomorrow, but.
Thank you so much for listening.
Yeah, we really appreciate it.Thanks guys, bye.
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