Content warning, this episode contains discussion of the brutal murder of two girls.
Well, today marks the final day of our coverage of the trial of Richard Allen for the murder of Liberty German and Abigail Williams, because the jury returned with a verdict today.And that verdict, as you've likely heard, is guilty.
We will talk about that and where we go from here.
My name is Anya Kane.I'm a journalist.
And I'm Kevin Greenlee.I'm an attorney.And this is The Murder Sheet.We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.We're The Murder Sheet.
And this is The Delphi Murders.Richard Allen on trial.The verdict.Richard Allen is guilty.
Why don't we start by talking a little bit about the mood outside the courthouse and among court watchers as of early today?I think a lot of people were becoming increasingly concerned about the prospect of a hung jury.
Me, I was that person.It was me.
And you were far from alone.And I think it is worth noting that the strategy of the defense team seemed to be a cynical one.It seemed to be a strategy for a hung jury.They were trying to get at least one or two people to hold out.
And we know that because of some of the stuff we read from them in their due process gang messages.
and other comments that certain people connected to the team have made elsewhere.It's a very cynical strategy.And we also know that because of what we saw in court.
And what we saw in court was not a defense team that was trying to raise reasonable doubt about whether or not their client committed this crime.What we saw in court was a defense team that was trying to change the subject.
in that closing argument, that ridiculous closing argument that Brad Rosie did, he was essentially making an argument for jury nullification.
He was essentially saying, oh, how Richard Allen was treated in prison, that's so bad that if you vote guilty, it means you are endorsing the thumbscrews from the Middle Ages.
You're making Big Snake happy.
Yes, and he actually concluded by showing a picture of someone being smothered by a snake.
I like how you felt you had to say that just to make sure people know I'm not going nuts.
But yeah, he concluded by showing an image of someone being smothered by a snake.And he said, that snake that you see crushing this individual, that is the government.And you need to vote not guilty.Otherwise, he will be endorsing this.And of course,
the subject of the trial was not whether or not people want to make government to be as powerful as a python.What the subject of the trial was, was whether or not Richard Allen murdered Liberty German and Abigail Williams.And
Just the mere fact that they were trying throughout this trial so often to change the subject is a pretty good sign of weakness and lack of faith in their case.
Because if they were convinced they could raise reasonable doubt about whether or not Richard Allen was involved in these murders, you don't need to change the subject.
So it seemed very, very clear, both from their actions during the trial and through the messages that we reported on earlier this year, that their strategy was to go for a hung jury.
We didn't hear at all about what Richard Allen was doing that day on the day in question, February 13th, 2017.We didn't hear much by way of even character witnesses.
I mean, they brought out his daughter and sister to say that they loved him, but I mean, there wasn't any sort of specificity.We didn't. They didn't want to talk about their client.They didn't want to talk about that day.
They didn't want to talk about any of that.All they wanted to do is bring out people who were at the bridge far too late to see or hear anything.And yeah, it felt to me like this was not a position of strength to the defense to be in.
Frankly, I felt they even left some kind of salient points on the table that may have helped them, like talking about the lack of blood in his car
After what we heard Sarah Carbaugh said, you know that that could have been something but again They didn't want to focus on that.
They just wanted to yell about how they didn't like Sarah Carbaugh in the end Yes, and they it was clear to me That what they wanted was a hung jury.
And so I would go so far to say is that it felt to me after watching this trial that the only two plausible outcomes were either a conviction or a hung jury because that was their strategy and
And so when word came today that the jury had reached their verdict, I felt it was absolutely clear that it was a conviction.
Yeah, we knew immediately it would be a conviction.There was no way this jury was going to acquit him after what we saw, not after the case that the prosecution put on and, frankly, the case that the defense put on.We knew verdict equals guilt.
There's no way around that.
Yes.And was it was the defense when it was a hung jury, which is a lack of a verdict.
So I think this may be as good a place as any in the program to note that Anya and I have been following this case rather closely for many years.We have talked to literally hundreds of people from all sides of this behind the scenes.
We sat in that courtroom for virtually every moment of the trial.I think we missed one session, one afternoon session.We heard everything the prosecution put forward.We heard everything the defense put forward.
And after digesting all of that, I'm convinced that the jury made the right decision.Richard Allen killed Liberty German and Abigail Williams.He is guilty of these crimes.
Richard Allen is guilty of sin in my view.No.Yeah.I mean, I don't know how you sit through what we sat through and come to any other conclusion.Frankly, this was not close.We kept open minds going into this process.
We've both gone back and forth at different times about what we think of the strength or what we've thought of the strength of the case against Allen and whether or not we felt he could be guilty.
Frankly, we've never talked about that on the show because you shouldn't care what we think prior to us hearing everything in court, okay?Because our opinions don't really matter in that sense.
But having sat through that trial, having looked at all the evidence, Having heard the arguments, it was not close.It was not even a little bit close.
No, it was very clear.No reasonable doubt remained.And what I think is interesting, there are a number of people out there who I think were surprised by this verdict, particularly people.
Well, there were a number of people in that courtroom and elsewhere who have made it their business to try to deceive and misinform people about the details of the case.
And I'm choosing my words carefully when I say make it their business because they make money off of it.And so I think a lot of people have been misinformed about the strength of the evidence in this case.
And maybe I think we're gonna do another episode tomorrow.Maybe as part of that, we should include like a brief overview of the evidence because it is very, very compelling and no reasonable doubt remains.This man is guilty.He did it.
Yeah, I've been appalled and disgusted that there's this cottage industry within true crime of people just going around and sort of like doing this.I don't know.I don't know.
I don't understand what they get out of it except for money and attention, which I guess, you know, it's motive enough in this situation.But it's disgusting to see.And I feel bad for their audiences because they're duped by it, by this nonsense.
You know, you've got a lot of people. A lot of good people who happen to be listening to dishonest people without perhaps fully realizing it are assuming, oh, Indiana is corrupt.Carroll County is corrupt.All these investigators are corrupt.
The prosecutor is corrupt.The judge is corrupt.Maybe a family member did it.All these ridiculous things.And the fact is, this is a clear-cut case.
This wasn't close.I mean, what do you even want to talk about now?I'm just I'm in I'm sort of in shock a little bit that this is all over.I really thought it might get hung and then we might end up kind of going through the whole thing again.
I felt the thing that kind of made me feel like it might not it might end in a mistrial was the fact that it was going on for so long.
At the same time, I also felt that this jury was very, very engaged and very much paying attention and asking incisive questions.So that kind of also made me wonder maybe they will come to some sort of conclusion.
One thing I want to say is Anya and I did not get in to the courtroom this morning when the verdict was revealed.We were not there.
No, frankly, we did not try at that point.I mean, rowdies or just, you know, we felt a duty and an obligation to at least try to get into all the sessions of court.We didn't succeed, but we came close.
And that was because, again, bad actors spinning things and then people who are not bad actors who are trying their best, who may not understand things.
There's people in the traditional media where they're trying their best to be accurate, but they don't have the context.And they just, they might say, hey, this person did that.And it's like, oh, we got the name wrong.You don't know what, you know.
So we tried because that would be factual information that would be being spun or hidden.And we felt the need, we need to go and shine a light on what's going on.
But with a verdict, I'm not going to be like frigging fighting with people in the crowd to get in there.You can't spin a verdict.So we kind of were like, let's just, you know, If people want to elbow their way into that, fine.
We don't need to be part of the circus anymore.
We were not in there.But we talked with a person who was in there, and this individual gave us a detail that I found haunting, and I got permission to share it with you all.
After the guilty verdicts are read, a pair of handcuffs are fastened to Richard Allen, and he's cuffed.And this person looked up at the clock at the moment this person heard the cuffs close on Richard Allen's wrist, and it was 2.32 p.m.And 2.32 p.m.
on February 13th, 2017 is the moment that Libby's phone stopped moving. So it feels like there is something poetic about that.
We also heard, having spoken to a number of people who were in the room, that Allen did not have any sort of outburst or emotional reaction to the news, that this is something that typically defense attorneys encourage their client
Don't react, don't emote, don't do anything, keep it cool.So it seems that, I'm not saying that that's what happened here, but it seems like that was at least what happened for Richard Allen.He did not cry or scream or anything like that.
We understand that other members of his family were emotional.I wonder how well prepared they were for this eventuality.
I know a lot of people on the defense side were evincing a great deal of confidence in the outcome of this case, confidence that I felt, frankly, was unwarranted.
What do you make of that?I mean, we've been hearing they've been going around telling people they're going to win this for a while.Like, that's gotten out there.And I don't understand, having seen this, where the heck they got that from.
I don't know what to tell you, Anya.
For me, and we can talk more about this in days to come, but for me, I remember often in this case, there would be moments where the defense team would be saying all alpha male bluster about how great they were and how everything was going to go their way.
And then you don't see that in court.And I remember for me, a turning point was the contempt hearing back in March, which they actually won.
but they won because the facts were on their side and there wasn't enough proof for it to go the other way at that time.But watching the performance of these attorneys in court that day, I said, wait a minute.
And so I've stopped having, I stopped having faith in their bluster after that.
I know, but it's like, how did they have, I mean, was it all a show or were they believing their own press?I don't understand it.
So we're outside, I think there's probably maybe 100, 150 onlookers who also didn't get in.
Everybody has their eyes on the door because we don't know what's going on in the courtroom any more than you do, even though it's just a few feet away from us.It's very frustrating.
A YouTuber comes out, he's the first one out, his face is ashen, and he rushes off.You might be able to guess who that is.And then a moment later, a reporter comes out and cries out, guilty on all counts.
And where we were, at least, there was a large cheer that went up from the onlookers.
People from Delphi, people have been following it for years.
Yes, I've been told that in another part of the onlookers people were disappointed and
And it's certainly true that there were people waiting for the verdict outside who were carrying signs saying things like, we love you, Richard Allen.And just think for a moment if you're a family member and you see people carrying signs like that.
I would hope the family member just considers the messenger and doesn't give it much thought.I think most people who really follow this case would not carry signs like that.
No, I don't think so.And I think that this is going to just further marginalize people who are on the extreme.
I think I want to separate two groups here because people where at times they haven't been convinced that he's guilty based on what they've heard.I mean, I've been part of that group at times.
OK, so I'm not I would never criticize anyone for feeling that way.
I don't mean to interrupt you, but when the PCA first came out.
Yeah, you were very much part of that group.
Yeah.And so, I mean, so that's why I'm saying that's no problem there, whatever you feel.
But there's a difference between that and basically treating this like it's some sort of bizarre fandom over a man who's been credibly accused of slaughtering two kids in the woods. There's a there's a big gap between those two things.
And so for the people who are doing that. What's wrong with you, I guess?I mean, I don't know.I mean, like, I don't think a lot of those people listen to our show, to be honest, but it's like, I just don't even know the motivation.
Somebody needs to do some, like, serious psychological studies around true crime and why people get involved, basically, for this kind of spectacle, but also so they can, I guess, like, you know, make martyrs out of violent men.
That's what I would be so curious to know, like, what are the implications of that?
And it's not that this, I mean, it's not in this situation.I mean, Richard Allen is far from some sort of like interesting or charismatic or charming person.
He's by all accounts, well, I don't know if I wanna say, it just baffles me in this case in particular.
I wanna jump back a minute for a moment to what we were talking about a minute ago about the bluster of this prosecution team.
You said bluster of the prosecution team?
I want to jump back to what I said a moment ago about the bluster of the defense team.I was getting...pardon me, everyone.It's the defense team that's had this alpha male type bluster.And the prosecution team has not been doing that.
I think the prosecution team has been much more scrupulous about maintaining the gag order.They're not going out and thumping their chest. And but in fact, the defense team has been doing that.
And at various times, people closely connected to the defense team have been challenging and criticizing the skills of the prosecution team led by Nick McClelland.
And so in fairness, I feel it is worth saying that the defense team in this case was outlawyered.I feel the prosecution team, Nick McClelland, Stacy Diener,
They all outlawed that defense team.This prosecution team, they had a strong hand, but they played it extraordinarily well.
I thought they did a very good job.And you could tell the amount of preparation and work they put into this.
Stacey Diener, she did a remarkable job.I believe she opened up the witnesses.She handled all of the family witnesses, if my recollection is correct, and she did so with compassion and care.
Yeah, and that I felt her work there started out the trial for the prosecution, I felt, on the right foot.
We're not only getting the establishment of what happened that day, but we're learning about who these girls were as human beings, and it was making the jury care about this.They're not some hypothetical kids.They're kids who belong to these families
They're still.This was devastating.They're still missed to this day.They had dreams.They had things they wanted to do.They should have been able to do those.They should be young women now, maybe starting their own families, maybe starting careers.
It's it's it's. her work sort of letting the families tell the story.I feel like a good attorney in some of these situations, they almost kind of like guide things along, but almost fade into the background.
So the emotion and the facts can kind of carry the day.And she was able to do that.I feel like with all of these. with all these folks.
She did that extraordinarily well.There's other things she did well, too, which I'm sure we'll talk about later.But I just want to highlight that.Yes, here.
And before I move on from Stacey Diener, I actually learned a fun fact about Stacey Diener the other day that I think is worth noting.Stacey Diener went to the same law school as the creator of Perry Mason.
So fun fact about Miss Diener, the member of the prosecution team.
James Luttrell.I said it wrong.I'm sorry.James Luttrell.That was bad.
Can I do it?So he, for me, a standout moment for him.He, I felt, handled a lot of the technical things, almost the science.So ballistics.
I'm going to highlight that.This was at the three-day mini-trial, but with Major Pat Cicero, who was the crime scene expert, that made me cry.That was some of the most devastating testimony I've ever heard, and that also happened in this trial.
He did a great job leading him through all of that, where it told the story as well as gave you all the facts.
In this trial, he handled the cross-examination of the defense ballistic witness, Dr. Warren.And if the jury ended up believing and accepting what this witness had to say, it would really have harmed the prosecution's case.
So it was very crucial that his cross-examination be done perfectly.And he did.He did a wonderful job.
He was very fiery during this, which was kind of amusing, might be the wrong word, but he seems very like kind of low key, like, like just kind of like you said, he's he's a rare lawyer that doesn't love the sound of his own voice.
But in this, he got a lot more aggressive and he was hitting this witness hard with a bunch of like it was it was very impressive.And I felt he did serious damage to this witness's credibility at the end of the day.
And that that was obviously a huge boon to the prosecution team.
What would you say a standout moment for Nick McClelland?
For me, McClelland, I don't know, it's hard to pick.He, okay, can I start off by saying this?I think you and I were in the camp when all this started, where frankly, I think we underestimated him.
I feel like we were certainly in that camp where we were like, well, We're only aware of him doing one other really murder case.You know, we were I think we were at times unimpressed with the probable cause affidavit when it came out.
And we were, you know, sort of baffled by the fact that McClellan tried to seal that.And we we took that as a well, we don't know.We were wrong.We were completely wrong.We were completely wrong.He absolutely
Sorry, I guess.I mean, it was really striking.He emerged in this trial and certainly in pre-trial hearings as well, but certainly in this trial solidifying it as an incredible trial lawyer.
And the moment of his that I think I will, again, all these prosecutors we mentioned had lots of standout moments.
Perhaps the one that lingers most in my mind and that I will probably think of for a long time to come would be his rebuttal closing argument where he talked about how Libby once told her grandmother when she grew up, she wanted to help solve a crime.
And he said, well, she did.
And she brought Abby along, too.Yeah.You can tell how much I think this case has meant to him between his opening and his closing and his rebuttal at the end there.And I feel like he and his whole team have put in a lot of incredible work in this.
And he did throughout a wonderful job of being sort of self-effacing and charming for the jury, but also very much honing to the facts. He was not wasting time.He was direct.He was forceful.He was prompting his witnesses to kind of get to the point.
And he, he brought, he, he, he really, he deserves a lot of credit for this.
And I want to talk about the investigation.More specifically, I want to talk about the fact that there are people out there who I feel have mischaracterized the investigation.
And I think the investigators have gotten a lot of over-the-top and frankly unfair criticism. Including, I mean, one of the investigators, one online crank has accused one of the investigators of trying to kill her.
It's just, it's ridiculous nonsense.And I think it obscures a couple of facts.One fact is that Anytime human beings do something, mistakes are going to be made.
Even in this podcast, I stumbled over my words and said something about, I referred to the prosecution when I meant the defense.
After correcting you so many times, I keep on mispronouncing James Lettrell's name.Can I say, just as an example, think back to where you work.Think about any project that your work did or anything you guys had to do as a group.Was it perfect?
Or were there some issues?And maybe the issues were not a big deal, but I'm sure you could pinpoint a few things where you're like, oh, we left a typo in there.Oh, there was a delay in the presentation because this happened.
Anyone can understand this.It's just when you have humans, that's what happens.
And so it was not a perfect investigation.
But the fact is, these people working this case who were subject to so much unfair attacks, including accusations of attempted murder and worse, these people who were harassed, who had threats made against them and their families, these people who went through all of this,
They kept their heads down and they kept working the case when I feel the easiest thing in the world would for them to do would have been to just let it be and focus on other cases.There's always other cases for the police to work.
They kept working.When they got leads, they worked them as hard as they could.And when they got this lead about Richard Allen, they worked it and they worked it and they got their man.
At the end of the day, I feel the Indiana State Police should be proud of the work they did on this case because they brought justice to this case.
As should the Carroll County Sheriff's Office.
And the Carroll County Sheriff's Office, led now by Tony Liggett.
I'm going to say this.When we talk about mistakes in investigations, for me, you know, I hear the term, oh, they're the keystone cops in this case a lot.To me, when I'm looking at this, I concur with Kevin.
I think the most significant error that was made here was the fact that because of some confusion with dispatch, Richard Allen's name was written down incorrectly.So he was Richard Allen Whiteman. And that led to that tip falling through the cracks.
That's a big mistake.That's a big issue.But it's one of those mistakes where I don't feel it amounts to some sort of original sin that affects every single investigator involved because they didn't know about it.
I don't know how they were supposed to.They're not clairvoyant.I mean, there's not like a disturbance in the force when something like that happens and everyone just immediately is like, oh, wait, we got it.
That just seems like a thing that can happen.And maybe if it happened to a tip where some nutty psychic was calling about Bigfoot being responsible, it wouldn't have mattered at all. But in this case, it did.
When people are talking about all these other mistakes made, I don't know.I mean, I think there might be something in the idea that maybe too many law enforcement agencies were involved early on.
But the thing is, you have to imagine everyone was trying to help find two lost kids at first, and then they're all around and they want to help find who murdered them.That's an understandable human impulse.
When people talk about how it was a disaster of an investigation, I don't feel like people can really point to a lot of specific concrete examples that, in my opinion, raise beyond just the kind of traditional things you would see.
All that being said, I want to also say one thing about someone who absolutely deserves all of the credit for riding the ship, and that person is Kathy Shank.
She, by doing what she did, by giving up her own time and energy and passion for helping others and for helping, in this case, with a horrible case involving children who were murdered, she turned this thing around.
She made it so that these families could experience today
Kathy Shanks is a hero.Kathy Shank is a hero.She's a hero.And I think anyone who's followed this case and who cares about these girls owes her a great debt.
I mean, just the fact that she just just did this like for free.Just what?Like, that's a caring person who cares about her community, cares about the children of her community, and she should be absolutely commended for that.She is a hero.
Earlier in this podcast, I said some nice things about the Indiana State Police.
I think it's important to highlight the fact that when Kathy Schenck saw that tip and she realized it was important, she hands it over to Carroll County Sheriff Tony Lickett.I believe at that time he was not yet elected sheriff.
and he knows what to do with it, he recognizes the significance of it, and he works the lead along with prosecutor-investigator Steve Mullen.
And I think I mentioned this a couple weeks ago in the show, whenever it was, when I saw Tony Liggett on the stand being cross-examined by Brad Rosey and matching wits with Brad Rosey, Tony, look at one.This is a very intelligent man.
When he got this information from Kathy Schenck, he knew what to do with it.He worked it.And again, that's why we're here today.I think if I were a resident of Carroll County, in the mixture of all of the feelings they must be experiencing today,
I hope they feel pride in their local team.They have a terrific prosecutor, they have a terrific sheriff, and they have people like Kathy Schenck in there too.
Yeah, I completely agree.
And they have much to feel proud about.
I agree.And, you know, they have the Lafayette Post of the Indiana State Police, and they put a lot into this.Detective or Master Trooper Brian Harshman, Detective Dave Vito.We heard from Lieutenant Jerry Holman.They were all on the stand.
The amount of work and resources that these men and women have all put into this deserves to be commended.
and the crime scene people.
The crime scene people, yeah, the CSIs, all of it, the DNA investigators, these forensic examiners, I mean, they went at this really hard.And again, I'm not gonna ever say this investigation was perfect or we should never scrutinize anybody.
No, that's what we've been doing for a long time.We've been scrutinizing and criticizing, and we will continue to do so.But at the end of the day, at the end of the day, they figured it out, they got it done.
And that's ultimately what matters to me more.
And I don't... One of my takeaways from this, from sitting through all of this testimony, is really an effort like this takes such teamwork.
The CSIs, the Sheriff's Department, the Indiana State Police, all of these people working together.And as part of the Indiana State Police, the CSIs are part of the Indiana State Police, the ballistics people.
Well, it's this stupid, I'm sorry, it's a stupid myth that it's like that crime solving, because listen, we all love the cozy mysteries.
We all love the shows with the brilliant detective who comes in and, you know, in elementary, my dear Watson, that's not obviously how anything works.It's a job.There are best practices.You follow those.You follow the rule book.
You you work with others. That's it.It's not some big fancy stupid like IQ, like, oh, let's all, you know, it's, it's, it's a job.And, and I feel like these people did the job and they, they overcame that early error where this thing was lost.
And that might've, that might've killed the effort in a, in a lot of cases, but in this case they threw everything into it and they got it done.
So grateful to all of them, including Kathy Shank.Kathy Shank is a hero.
Yeah.And so in terms of other things, I wanted to also, was it, were there other people you wanted to single out there or can I move on?
I wanted to talk about the families of Abby and Libby and what they've been put through by this whole ordeal.And unfortunately, it's not stopped during the trial.Of course, I guess that makes sense.
But this is a situation where not only have they had to contend with a horrific loss that most of us cannot even imagine going through,
losing your loved one to a violent crime, losing a child or a grandchild to a violent crime or a sister or a cousin.
That's not something everyone can understand of how painful and shocking and what a shock to the system that is and what that does to you and your faith in the world and your faith in other people.
Not only have they had to deal with that, but they've also had to deal with bad actors who want to work out their own personal issues on true crime cases or want to get money or attention from true crime cases coming in and doing all manner of harm, including but not limited to leaking and spreading around graphic crime scene images, sending graphic crime scene images
to these family members, spreading rumors about these individuals, accusing family members of participating in the crime based on nothing, but like, whoa, maybe that happened.And the amount of callousness I've seen directed.
And I feel like I know what it is.I know why this is happening.If this thing had gotten solved immediately, I don't think it would have happened.But people are very uncomfortable with the lack of fairness in the universe sometimes.
And I think when some people, not all, but when some people see, oh my gosh, they lost their girls and we don't know what happened, they don't like that.
And so then they kind of invent a way for it to be their fault so they don't have to feel any sympathy.They just, they don't feel comfortable with it.No, it must be that they're to blame.
That's what I think a lot of this impulse within true crime is driven.I mean, not all of it, but that is a lot of it.And people also just love a good conspiracy.And so they cast these family members in the starring roles of that.
And I think all of those people should be absolutely ashamed of themselves right now.I think they should apologize.They won't, but they should.
I think the family is owed apologies.The investigators are owed apologies.The town of Delphi is owed apologies.A lot of people are owed apologies that will not come.
And yes, in the town of Delphi is the collateral damage as well, because people who are part of the community have been accused of being part of the crime.
They've been told that their city is some uniquely horrific, corrupt place that's just a, you know, just a fictional version of Delphi is just spread all over the place.
It's a city, it's a county seat in a small Indiana county with problems like everywhere else, probably like problems where
You live or you know where we live or if you scratch the surface anywhere has problems but when we've been there it's it's a lot of very lovely people a lot of just normal people live in their lives there you know it's it's just it's like anywhere else in a way and.
the idea that people have just been going around smearing this town for these years.It's just, it's just, it's embarrassing.
It makes me embarrassed to be part of anything involving true crime sometimes to be, to be honest, because it's like, what are we doing here?You know, like, I mean, like this, it doesn't need to be this way, but some people make it so that it is.
Yeah.And, um, but, but going back to the families, I mean, Like, gosh, they've been gagged by the gag order with Judge Gull, and therefore they've not been able to defend themselves for a while now.
Yeah, and it's unfortunate.The gag order, I feel, was a mistake on the part of Judge Gull.
for many reasons, one of which is that the defense side seems to pretty regularly ignore it with no consequence that I can see, while the people on the prosecution side, including the family members, honor it.
And so their voices have been removed from the conversation for the last two years.And that is not fair to them, number one.And number two, it is degraded the quality of the conversation.
Because having the families be a part of the conversation elevates it.
And we've lost that.And that is a source of frustration for me.Today, people were hoping to hear from the families.And we found that the gag order is still in place until the sentencing, which I believe is on December 20th.
So their voices are still absent from this conversation, but that will change soon.And I know a lot of people are looking forward to what they have to say, and a lot of people may be nervous about what the family has to say.
A lot of people should be very nervous.
they should.And I would say in terms of sentencing, yes, that's gonna be December 20th.Let's talk about Judge Gull's performance throughout all of this.
Obviously, you and I have had a lot of criticism, a lot of, I think, at the beginning of our trial coverage, very loud criticism, where we've had a huge issue with the public access in this case.
And, you know, if we were if we were over the top in the beginning, I mean, we were very tired.I do still generally feel like this was not well handled in terms of that.
I'll go beyond that.I feel her public acts, the way she handled the public access was disastrous.
completely disastrous to the extent of being shameful and irresponsible.
And I think a lot of the reason why the conspiracy theorists have flourished, a lot of the reasons why people are able to sit in that courtroom and then go on YouTube and lie about what happened in that courtroom is because there's no one checking them.
And if there had been a camera in the courtroom or an audio feed in the courtroom and all of you could have either watched or listened to what was going on in that courtroom, then these people would not have been able to get away with lying about it.
And people now who have doubts about the verdict, I believe, would not have those doubts because they would have seen all the evidence that we saw. So I think the way she handled the public access was disastrous.
I think the gag order was a serious miscalculation that was ultimately deeply unfair to the families.
What do you think about her performance in the legal realm of this case, minus the public access?
Generally speaking, I feel she did fine on that front.The ruling she made during the trial that I most disagreed with negatively affected the prosecution.I feel she made the decision not to allow them to show a video of Richard Allen.
behaving badly at Cass County Jail, and I think she should have allowed that.That hurt the prosecution.
Other than that, I feel her decisions were fair and reasonable, and I feel she protected the interests of Richard Allen, including by not showing that video.
Yeah, that was a boon to him.When people talk about how it's so outrageous that she handcuffed the defense by taking away Odinism, my eyes almost roll out of my head at this point.
There's been so much consternation about this and it's a stupid theory.They did a bad job presenting it.She did them a favor.They should have been thanking her and figuring out a better theory instead of
Whatever we got, if there had been cameras in the courtroom back in the pretrial hearing where they presented their ownism theory, no one would be defending it.
No, but a bunch of people want to show up and just say, oh, this must be it's like you don't know what you're talking about.
So I it's inevitable that the defense is going to file an appeal.That appeal will not involve Baldwin and Rosie because they're not appellate attorneys. So expect an appeal to be filed, but keep in mind that most appeals are not successful.
And just because an appeal is filed doesn't mean that it is well-founded or will succeed.
I want to add to that when we talk about an appeal, what would be an appealable issue here?There's been a lot of, you know, pointing to the fact that Gull removed the attorneys for a time.
And that to me is, in fact, the most dramatic moment where I could look at that and say, well, you know. Like, that's that's a pretty extreme situation.Maybe that would be an appeal.
But when we talk about it, when we look at it, the Indiana Supreme Court already ruled on that and they ruled that she was fair to Richard Allen and that essentially they undid what they felt was the mistake there, which was them being removed.
I feel like the Indiana Supreme Court essentially absolved Gall there of wrongdoing.They didn't.They could have said, hey, you need to recuse yourself because you were really unfair to these guys.They did not do that.So after that, I don't know.
What she did that was. dramatic enough and people say odinism and to that I say literally just read the transcripts for the hearing.Please do yourself a favor.Odinism was not going to happen.They didn't get there.
The investigators who worked on that did not get there.They didn't even get to probable cause. It was not a good theory.Just because it's interesting doesn't mean it's the right angle.And I just, I don't know.
It captured the imagination and very little else.But when I'm looking at this, I don't know.Yeah, I mean, they're going to file an appeal.They're going to try.
I mean, the ultimate goal would be to get his conviction thrown out and get a new trial, right?
That's a long road to get there.So I guess we'll see.
I'll tell you it's not going to happen.
Oh, jeez, you're really coming out.
No, I mean, let's be honest.Let's just be blunt.It's not going to happen.We have followed this case from the day of the arrest, the Richard Allen case.We've seen all the court files.We've seen all of the decisions Goal has made.
We saw everything she did in court.In my opinion, I didn't see anything that even came close to warranting a new trial.
I mean, do you think it's going to happen?
No.If I'm being blunt, no, but I'm not a lawyer.So, I mean, I'm just going off of vibes, just like the internet.But I mean, I just, I don't know, people, people are going to say that and bang on about it.I'm sure they'll do some nice.
It's not going to happen and it shouldn't happen.Well, but you know, Rich Allen's rights were protected.
People got a crowdfund off it.Right.Yeah.Some, some grifting must continue, I suppose.Um, I don't see it happening either.I can't think of anything in this trial or pretrial that would raise to that level.
I just think a lot of people who don't know what they're talking about are just going to keep on acting like it's an inevitability so that they can continue to talk about it and kind of get whatever they're getting from that.
And try to stir people up.He had his day in court.He was treated fairly.The evidence was overwhelmingly against him.
The verdict was just he is where he needs to be.And I expect him to be there until the day he dies.
He should not be around.Let's just say tomorrow we might do an episode where we're kind of talking about all the evidence.But I want to say today.We learned about this man through the course of trial, through the defense's own experts.
that he was a fragile egg who needed women to do everything for him, his wife and his mother.They were the only thing supporting him, propping him up, and that he probably had a drinking problem.
Something happened on February 13th that seemed to really set him off.And he decided to go pick on people that he felt he could get away with it and sexually dominate and rape them.And he didn't care whether they were little girls or women.
And he deserves to be in prison for the rest of his life for what he did to those kids.Because we've seen the aftermath of what he did to those kids.And I wish I could unsee it, but I don't think I ever will.And it's horrifying.
And we've seen also the psychic damage he has done to the community and to the families.
What a selfish, small, pathetic man.What he's done is, you know, he wanted forgiveness for God.And I would have given someone in that position a lot of credit had they come clean, done the right thing, sought forgiveness.Maybe you disagree.
Maybe you think it's never be forgiven or whatnot.Maybe I agree on some level, but on the other hand, I'm like, At least you're sparing everyone this farce.
The trial.It was a farce.They had no defense.The state had a strong case.And the fact that he couldn't even do that because what?I don't know.He got bullied into it.I don't know.
Got bullied into not going forward with at least admitting it, taking some ownership for his actions.Pathetic.
Just those girls should be alive today and they would be if not for that man who wants to sit in court and act like he's the biggest victim of this.
And I imagine it must be painful for the families to go on social media and see his face spread all over the place.So maybe think about posting a nice picture of Libby and Abby instead.
You want to end by talking about the girls, which is what ultimately I would like to end on.
Ultimately, what is important about these girls is the way they lived and their legacy.
Yes. I know their families have made funds to help kids from that community go to college.There's a beautiful park, the Abbey and Libby Park.There's ways to donate to that to kind of keep their legacy alive.We would encourage people to do so.
It's a way for their memories to continue in a positive way as opposed to how horribly their lives ended.
I feel like on some levels through this trial, we got to know them a little bit better from hearing from their family members, hearing some of that testimony.These were special kids who were, this never should have happened.
What you said really haunts me the other day, what you said about you watched the video of the kidnapping and you wish it would end differently, that someone would come help them or that something else would happen or that that guy would just fall off the bridge.
Or like you could just maybe jump through time and just push him off.But you know, what you also see is that Abby's asking Libby not to leave her. and they never left each other.And I don't know.
I guess, you know, you kind of go through this story hoping that whatever happened was over fast.And I don't, I don't think that anymore having seen all the evidence, but I don't know.
They were just, they were very, very brave girls who I think listened to their instincts and even though they didn't get away, they made it so that the person who did this would ultimately be found and the truth would be exposed.And I don't know.
I mean, that's knowing that Libby wanted to solve crimes one day.
is like you know she did and and so did abby and i just i'm just so sorry to their families for not only what they went through with losing them but with all of this this circus this online nastiness just compounding their pain it's not it's not it's not right it makes me sick and i just i don't
There are a lot of people who've covered this in a respectful way.There are people who came into this trial who'd never covered it before and hit the ground running and were incredibly respectful and incredibly thoughtful.
And we'll sing their praises at some point.We'll talk about that.There are people who've covered it for years or who've followed it for years.And there are a lot of people doing a lot of good things too.I wanna emphasize that.It's not all darkness.
There's absolutely light in this.Some wonderful people. But, um, I just, at the end of the day, um, all of this is, is sort of, nothing will bring these kids back.And that's just,
All you can hope for is justice, and I think that was... That happened today.There was justice today.
There was justice today.Let's remember these girls for how they lived, and let's be grateful for all of the men and women who worked so hard in horrible circumstances in order to bring justice to those girls.
A number of very good people worked extraordinarily hard, and I'm grateful to them all.
Because they made today possible, and we mentioned a few of them in this program.And there's certainly more to say about all that, but I think we'll talk again tomorrow.
Yeah, we will.Thanks.Bye, everybody.
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We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.Thanks again for listening. Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode.
Just as a quick post-roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings Handbook.This show is phenomenal.
Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people, overcoming tragedy, well-being, like he does it all. This is a show for you.
He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space, just interesting people with interesting life experiences.
And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer, where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward.
I would liken it to like you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise, because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.
On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.He's been a really good friend to us.And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want.It's a really terrific show.
We really recommend it highly.
Yeah, I think our audience will like it.And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.He's been on our show a couple times.We've been on his show.He's a terrific guest.
I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always am like, oh yeah, I remember when Jason said this.That really resonated.I do quote him in conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different
She quotes him to me all the time.
I do.I'm like, remember when Jason said this?That was so right.So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think, and you like us, I think you should give it a shot.Give it a try.I think you'll really enjoy it.
And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have this similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that.
There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice. We work on a lot of stories that can be very tough and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it.
But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime, I think this is kind of the life affirming stuff that can be nice to listen to in a podcast.
It's compassionate, it's affirming, but I also want to emphasize it's smart.Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person.This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show.I think you'll all really enjoy it.
Yeah, and he's got a great community that he's building.So we're really excited to be a part of that.We're fans of the show.We love it.And we would strongly encourage you all to check it out.Download some episodes, listen.
I think you'll understand what we're talking about once you do.But anyways, you can listen to The Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.
Wherever you listen to podcasts.Very easy to find.Absolutely.
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