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Hello and welcome to Geek History Lesson.I'm Ashley Victoria Robinson, a Canadian comic book writer from Canada.
I am joined on this pod by a screenwriter from Kansas, Jason Inman, and we are breaking down all of the characters, constructs, and Spider-Man villains from pop culture and teaching you everything you need to know about them.
Today at the time of this recording, we are so close to the release of a movie called Venom 3, Eddie!
Just kidding, it's Venom 3, Eddie, and we want to make sure, Eddie, that you know about all kinds of characters who might crop up, Eddie, in the latest Venom movie, The Last Dance, directed by the Lord of the Rings Z-Z-Z-Z-Zone! Andy Serkis.
So today we are throwing to past Jason and past Ashley to teach you all about Craven the Hunter, Dr. Octopus, Mysterio, Vulture, and summing up with the best Spider-Man villains list episode.We bet a couple of these might come up in the future.
These are really, really fun episodes.They're really, really villainous, Eddie, and we hope you'll have a great time.So take it away, past Jason and past Ashley.
Craven the Hunter, he is a classic version of the big game hunter trope.It's sort of more of a leftover notion from the early 20th century.So, Ashley, I need to ask you this.
In the 21st century, you know, in 2023, are we past the big game hunter as a villain trope for stories or is there more story room for this?
Ooh, that is so interesting.
It's a very early connotation of the 20th century, right?Like where the world is unexplored and we don't know what monsters lurk in the jungle.
So I've recently been reading a book that's a pastiche of the Isle of Dr. Moreau.And there is a character who's a big game hunter, who's kind of a hero figure in that.I do think it's dated.
I think the way that we're seeing this trope evolve in the modern age is like President Snow in the Hunger Games.
He's not a big game hunter, but he's that same sort of sadistic persona villain where he wants to see violence done, but he's like a smarter architect of it.So I think there's a way to still do Craven in modern stories.
I just think you've got to go a little bigger scope with it.
Interesting, or you have to either niche down on it, like he's a very, he is this type of hunter.
Yeah, like he only hunts this one specific snake whose scales are made of adamantium or something like that.
I will say this, I do appreciate that we're not really gonna talk about the Ultimate Comics version of Kraven the Hunter, you know, the alternate universe, because in that version they sort of made him Steve Irwin.
Yeah, I think is not a bad update to that character, but we are gonna stick to the classic big-game hunter And this is a perfect way to begin our lesson welcome to a geek history lesson everybody.
I'm Jason tiger stripes inman I'm Ashley Victoria Robinson welcome to your mind University because you have stumbled onto the podcast where we take one character construct or big-game hunter from pop culture and teach you everything you need to know about them in about an hour and Jason some people might be like wait.
Why are you talking about Craven the hunter now? I requested this episode seven years ago.
Well One of Craven's most formerly excuse me one of spider-man's most formerly unrelenting villains He has just been introduced into video games in Marvel's spider-man 2 He's mainly called Serge Sergei Kraven off
But, you know, we all know him as Kraven the Hunter.So that is why we are doing Kraven the Hunter this week to tie into Marvel's Spider-Man 2 on the PS5, the PlayStation 5.
Now, if you don't know who this guy is, he is widely regarded to be one of Spider-Man's best villains.And fun fact, in 2009, Kraven was ranked as the 53rd greatest comic book villain of all time by IGN.53rd.Out of a presumable 100.
Now I have a soft spot for Craven.I am surprised that he is that high up.But Ashley, it's funny that you said that, you know, suggested by many people.This lesson was suggested by no one.
No one.I went back through our records.Not a single geek.Again, this guy is the 53rd greatest comic book villain of all time.Not a single one of you listeners suggested him.
But over 50 of you said Van Helsing, yes, this is your fault.Shame on you.
I am getting my elephant rifle and I am coming to your home.
I have to say when you evoked the ultimate universe, Craven has been a long time since I read Ultimate Spider-Man and the Steve Irwin of it all.I was like, man, can you imagine Craven with a streaming television?
Well, here's the thing.OK, this is going to be the last time we talk about ultimate comics.Sorry.
No, of course, that was the 2000s update that that Mark Miller and Brian Michael Bendis were big parts of where the idea that they reimagine the Marvel Universe as if it happened like the year 2000.Kraven the Hunter is a joke in that universe.
Oh, I know.Yeah.So he is a gag.So there's like six issues where it's the idea that this, you know, Steve Irwin television host is like, I am going to hunt the spider.And then he shows up at a battle with Spider-Man.
Spider-Man punches him in the face and he immediately goes unconscious. And that's it.And Spider-Man just says, oh, I thought he had superpowers, but he was just a normal dude.
And that is, he shows up again, of course, it's like they mutate him into other creatures.
But I've always thought I'm like, oh, that's kind of a bummer that like, so clearly like the writer Brian Michael Bendis thinks that Kraven the Hunter is a joke. Wow.Which is why he made up a joke.
Look, Mr. Bendis, I know you're a listener, you're a big fan of your work, you're welcome to come on the podcast anytime and please tell me that I'm wrong.
We also do know for a scientific fact that Brian Michael Bendis has at least purchased our comic, if not read our comic.That's right, he's purchased it.
I also need to shout out that some research and some additional writing was done on this episode by our great research assistant, Diego Anthony Nunez.Woo!Thank you, Diego.He is the one and only listener that I will not hunt down with my elephant gun.
You better watch oh boy coming around the corner.
You see that little movement in the back of your corner your eye That's me.
I Hope I hope our listeners are close with spider-man cuz they're gonna need some protection You are gonna be you shall need the spider to protect gonna bury them all under We'll get to that story eventually.
This is my craving the hunter voice.
It's a because he's Russian Yeah, yes, I am craving the hunter.
Can you hear the mustache against him?I?
It's two things that Jason and Kraven the Hunter share in common.A gift for accents and mustaches.
My mustache is not as good as his.But you know what is as good as his?The Tencent Origin.Does that make sense?I don't know.Let's go.
My mustache is as good as his.
The Tencent Origin is the first part of the podcast where Professor Jason is going to teach you all the whosits and whatsits galore in case you go to a Spider-Man villain themed cocktail party and someone's like, why are you dressed up with no shirt on?
Yeah, basically.Look at those abs.All right.Craven the Hunter is a Marvel Comics character.His first appearance was in The Amazing Spider-Man number 15.Wow.In August of 1964.So he is an O.G.O.G.He is an O.G.Steve Ditko and Stan Lee character.
That's why he was created by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, the creators of Spider-Man. Spoilers.Now, I am also right out the gate going to apologize for my mispronunciations of Russian names.We do our best.I'm doing my best.
No disrespect when mistakes are made.
His name is Sergei Nikolaevich Kravinov.That is his real name.
What a cool name.Honestly, what a very, very cool name.He is technically a human mutate.
which is a human who is later mutated.
Same as Spider-Man.Not born with powers, which is a mutant.His birthplace was Volgograd, Russia.His team affiliations have been the Sinister Six, the Avengers 1959.We'll get to that. The Army of Evil and the Justice Pals.
Ooh, bring back the Army of Evil.What a good title.His partnerships have been with Squirrel Girl and Calypso Elysii.We're not gonna talk about Squirrel Girl at all.I'm sorry.He has some notable aliases.The Unhuntable Sergei.The Spider-Man.
And he also went as the Scarlet Spider at one point. Wow.His abilities are, he has enhanced physical abilities and enhanced martial arts.He's a master tactician.He is a master hunter and tracker and observer.
He's a master of various weapons and equipment.We will go into some of his powers later on, but now let's get to the meet cute.
The meet cute is where we steal a term from romantic comedy writing and we tell you where we first meted a character and how cute it was.
Now our research assistant Diego, his me cute, is when I was a kid I had this book called Spider-Man The Ultimate Guide, and there was an entire section devoted to Kraven.
There I learned not only about him but his last hunt, and I didn't read that comic until years later.But reading about that book as a young kid, that dynamic storytelling, it shocked me.Now Ashley, where did you first encounter Kraven the Hunter?
Very boringly in the 90s Spider-Man cartoon.
How is he in that cartoon?Do you remember?How is he?Well, I mean, look at cartoonish.Well, duh.But how does he act?You knew what my question was.Don't play dumb here.Don't make me pull off my outfit.I'm coming for you, too.
I feel confident that intern Brego will defend my honor against your actual weapon.
We'll see that that that useless podcast.
Probably the easiest thing to hunt in this in this podcast studio is the actual animal.He's not in here right now. I thought as a small child was pretty creepy, but I don't know as a grown up if that's if he was giving creepy man vibe or creepy.
Yeah, his mustache.Were you betwitched by his beautiful?No, I don't.
OK, hot take.I don't understand why people think Lobo is hot and I don't understand why people think Craven Hunter is hot.
Yes, I am not.I'm not yucking anyone's yum, but like very much for you and not for me. Craven is a hottie, he never has a shirt.You know what, more for you.
His tiger eyes on his torso.
So I thought it was a lion for most of my life.I think it is a lion, actually.
And in the Spider-Man animated series, the eyes on the lion are green colored, like a lime green, a neon green, and they're right where his nipples should be.
And I remember as a young person not understanding why he had green nipples and not understanding what they were supposed to be.Like that is my number one
Memory of great with a hundred because I have green nipples sort of supposed to be like a lion head is draped over Yeah, and it's got like the furry shoulders.
Yeah, so most of my feelings about Craven in the I think it was very Canadian on that about The animated series for that he was creepy, and he had green nipples, so what is your me cute for Craven?Oh?
So my meet cute is one of my typical meet cutes It's a I read about Craven in wizard the magazine beloved the beloved 90s comic magazine and they talked a lot wizard always had about 10 or 20 stories that they would constantly bring up and Craven's last hunt a story we will talk about in this lesson was always brought about and so Yeah, I have a big I like Craven the hunter, but I like him Basically in that story Craven's last hunt and then I never want him in spider-man comic books ever again
Okay, we're just rife with hot takes today.I agree.I think he's a one and done.
And we will talk about it.But also, if you want to hear us talk about more stuff, come on over to patreon.com.We got a bunch of extra podcasts over there, and we now have a store over there.So there is a Patreon
So if you, you know, if you don't want to go over to Patreon, you know, you know, and you don't have the funds to support us monthly, that's totally fine.
We now have just uploaded a copy of our first comic book, Jupiter Jet, volume one, 120 pages, and it's slightly discounted.The digital copies over there at Patreon.But, you know, if you're like, I don't like books, I like more podcasts.
We have the Jason and Jeremy Jon about Justice League podcast every single month over there.We're finally getting Justice League Unlimited.We have the GHL. Extra podcast where we talk more this week.
We're going to talk more about Craven the Hunter the movie.We have some details.I got some spoilers about that movie and you can get ad free episodes of the show.So there's lots of content over there.There's so much content like there's hours of it.
I actually was going through the categories of patron recently and actually we have over there's over like 250 episodes of GHL extra.
You're also forgetting that we have a video series over there as well.So if folks want to see our beautiful faces, they can also do that at Patreon.
So go support.Thank you all the super friends that do.Patreon.com.That's J-A-W-I-I-N.Go support the fun.And now it's time to get into the History 101.
the main meat, and I do mean meat, sorry to all the vegan listeners, of the lesson where Jason is going to teach you everything you need to know about Kraven's the Hunter.We're going to do a dueling Russian accent.
So Sergei Nikolayevich Kravenov was born and raised in Volgograd, Russia in the early half of the 20th century.The exact year is not known.
Wow, so he's like a million years old now.
He is the son of an aristocrat.His family fled to the United States in 1917 after losing their nobility from the collapse of Tsar Nikolai II's reign. away from the communist uprising and the USSR.
Craven eventually became a big game hunter, adopting the name Craven the Hunter as a way, in a sense, to regain his nobility.And unlike most hunters, he has a disdain for guns and arrows.
He prefers that you use a knife or your God-given bare hands to hunt, like our ancestors did.
I mean, I am not like a pro hunting girly, but I'm gonna say that I agree with that.If you're gonna do that, you gotta earn it.
After meeting a witch doctor named Calypso, Craven then ingested a herbal potion that enhanced his strength, his speed, his senses in the ways of a jungle cat, and it also slowed down his aging powers.This is what made him a mutate.
I'm gonna tell you exactly how powerful Craven the Hunter is, because I actually was surprised at how powerful this guy is.He's more powerful than you think he is.So here are his sort of powers, right?
He has basically, comparatively, strength-wise, he is almost equal of Captain America with this new potion.So he can now capable, he can lift two tons And with his fighting experience, his strength is that he is the equal of Spider-Man.
And at his peak, Kraven could sprint in short distances, the equivalent of 60 miles per hour.Which is how fast twice as fast as a cheater runs, I believe.
And his agility and speed are so jacked up that he has the ability to catch up to Spider-Man when he is web swinging.
Spider-Man also, in case anyone doesn't remember, has the proportional strength of a spider, which is like astronomical.
Which is also about two tons.Spider-Man can lift about a two ton car.So can Kraven.So when Spider-Man is going full speed web swinging, Kraven running across rooftops can catch up to him.
This is so interesting because this is giving me like, Lee or Ditko went through that phase that a lot of young men go through where they were really into Rasputin for a bit, and they were like, how do we do Rasputin but as a Spider-Man?
Now, in the 1950s, Craven was approached by Nicholas Fury.Ashley, who is Nick Fury?
Nicholas J. Fury, I don't know what his middle name is.Nick Fury- Justice, I don't know.Is often the head of various secret organizations within Marvel Comics, but you know him as the guy who started the Avengers Initiative.
Yes, he was interested in enlisting Craven to join his black ops team, codenamed the Avengers, just like the fantastic and amazing British television show. The team consisted of other recognizable characters like Victor Creed, a.k.a.
Sabretooth, Nemora, cousin of Namor, Silver Sable, father of the Silver Sable, the woman that we know from Spider-Man comics, and a bunch of other Marvel characters like Timothy Dugan, David Fortunoff, and Ulysses Bloodstone.
This team would go globetrotting for secret missions that included stopping the Red Skull in his newly formed Fourth Reich, or they would rescue King T'Chaka of Wakanda.Woo, I know him.Who was involved in a kidnapping plot that would weaken Wakanda.
Now, this is a Black Ops Avengers team retcon.This is a retcon idea, or as I like to call it, this is the Zoot Suit Avengers.
If I thought I would sell it all I'd be like put it on a t-shirt, but nobody cares. Scoobity dee dee dee dee dee dee scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot scoot
Yeah, actually I wanted to bring this up because um Is this a cool idea that there was a proto avengers team in the 1950s full of like sort of like animal 1950s people, you know, we've had a t-shirt in the ghl store for a long time That says make your own continuity and I will say that I embrace that with all of my heart and soul But this is very much hashtag not my headcanon Which is fine.
It's too silly for me, but it also just includes a lot of characters that don't spark a lot of joy for me when I think about constructing a team.
So this is going to be something that I did not think I was going to bring up on a Craven the Hunter episode. So, this is a bad version of a retcon because it leans into the small universe theory of writing.What does that mean?Let me explain.
What does that mean, Jason?Yes, let me explain.Thank you.The small universe theory basically is it's, let's take Star Wars for example.Star Wars is a good example.It is the idea that everyone in the universe knows Luke Skywalker.Yep.
Everyone in the universe. And everybody in the universe has also met Luke Skywalker, right?It makes your big universe small.And this basically says that everyone you know was basically on an Avengers team.
Well, I mean, that is which also makes your universe small.Yeah.And the problem I find with modern franchises is that they all feel small and universes need unexplored corners.
and this gets rid of Unexplored Corners.It's fine, but every character has not met every other character in the universe.
And I think you make a great point about you need Unexplored Corners and to continue the Star Wars metaphor, Unexplored Corners allow for really great stories like Lost Stars.
Which is considered to be one of the best books that's ever come out of Star Wars.Who wrote Lost Stars?
Claudia gray, okay, the greatest Star Wars writer the modern age of my face, but yeah, that is my thought about the Scooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-dooby-
It's so cute.They're going to make out.They're going to hold hands.They're going to bring each other's hair.
Now, the chameleon, the master of disguise, Spider-Man villain who was ripping off Mission Impossible before Mission Impossible was a thing, you know, because he's constantly like changing his face.Get it.Get it.You get it.Sure.
You know, I think I can parse it.He dead reckoned before.Oh, my God.Anybody else could.Before he Mission Impossible to. He was the living protocol, not the ghost protocol.He didn't have a fallout.He always fall in. Ah, not another mission possible.
And then one, two, three, he was easy to beat the Spider-Man.I don't know.Anyways.So Chameleon is actually the first Spider-Man villain.Cool.He actually is the very first Spider-Man villain.No, Jason Poverty is the first Spider-Man villain.
No, the Chameleon.And you may not know this, Ashley, but the Chameleon is actually the stepbrother of Kraven the Hunter.He's also Russian.They're related.I will assure you, I did not know that.
So the Chameleon, because he got beat by Spider-Man, you know, in the first issue of Amazing Spider-Man, he 15 issues later, went to Kraven the Hunter, tapped him on the shoulder and said, hey, how about we beat this spider?
That guy beat me up.Will you beat him up for me?
So Kraven rose to the challenge to take on the spider.He called him the spider, and he wanted to learn everything that he could possibly learn about his prey.
Now, fun fact, in Kraven's first appearance, he refers to Spider-Man as the most dangerous game.
A direct reference to the 1924 short story of the very same name in which General Tsarov, a Russian big game hunter and primary inspiration for Kraven the Hunter, hunts people as sport.
If you've never read The Most Dangerous Game, it's actually an excellently written short story.A very good piece of classic literature.And it's been referenced to death. Yes, including some very unfortunate real world circumstances.
So Kraven arranged a late night robbery by these random thugs for Spider-Man to beat up, basically so Kraven could just see his fighting style.
The two eventually then have their first encounter and Kraven trounces Spider-Man and Spider-Man is forced to retreat, which Kraven views as that he has wounded his prey and that it's only a matter of time before he vanquishes him.
Now, eventually, Spider-Man tries to get the jump on Kraven, only to discover that Kraven set a trap on him.
However, because of his spider sense and because he's just very wily and skinny, Spider-Man is clever and he's able to break free and he outmaneuvers Kraven and eventually outsmarts and beats Kraven and Chameleon with a very simple tactic.
And we are going to learn what this very simple tactic is right after this. GHL's back, we're talking about Kraven the Hunter, and we're talking about the first encounter between Kraven the Hunter and Spider-Man and the Chameleon.
And Spider-Man has a very simple tactic that he used to beat both of them in their first encounter.Now Ashley, Spider-Man employed the one thing, the one and only thing, that could stop Kraven the Hunter.
Do you want to make a guess about what this is?
A work visa authorization.
You're pretty close.It's deportation.
That was a joke for me personally.Spider-Man turns them into the cops and they get deported.And he's like, their visas are not in order.
And they're on the freighter going out of the harbor.
And they're like waving goodbye to Lady Liberty as they go.Dasvidaniya.
That is how Spider-Man beats Kraven the Hunter.Deportation.
Well, I mean, if you can fight Spider-Man blow for blow, then he has to outmaneuver you, and that's what's unique about Peter Parker is his intellect, so.
Now, eventually Kraven does return, and this time he becomes a founding member of the Sinister Six, a super group of interchangeable villains from Spider-Man's roster.But Ashley, I've asked you this multiple times.Please don't do this to me.
So, Ashley, who is in the original Sinister Six.You know it's Kramer the Hunter.The Chameleon.Incorrect.His brother did not show up on this one.Scorpion.Incorrect.Rhino.Incorrect.Dr. Octopus.Correct.Dr. Octopus is the person who founds the group.
Electro.Correct.They're all men, aren't they?They're all men, early sort of animal-based Spider-Man villains.
Yeah, but you've already said no to Scorpion and Rhino.
The Lizard. Incorrect.A goblin.Nope.There's one that looks like a bird.Oh, the vulture.Correct.There's one that children play in boxes of this.Sandman.Correct.And then there's one who looks like a fishbowl.
Correct.So it's Vulture, Sandman, Electro, Mysterio, Kraven the Hunter, and Dr. Octopus.
Now, just to give you a breakdown of this, Vulture appeared in issue two of Amazing Spider-Man, Sandman appeared in issue four, Electro appeared in issue nine, Mysterio appeared in issue 13, Kraven the Hunter appeared in issue 15, and I think Doc Ock appears in issue three.
So they more or less just put their entire roster on a super team by issue whatever.
But also think about this. All of these villains are Spider-Man's most popular villains.They all come from- Except the goblins.Well, the goblin, I think, also gets introduced in those first 10 issues as well.I know, but he's not on the Sinister Six.
But think about the amount of creativity that all of these villains come from the first 15 issues.The first year.
The first 50, 100 issues of Spider-Man are legendary in their excellence, right alongside the first 100 issues of Fantastic Four.That's correct.
Now, the funny thing is, is that they don't really work together as a team because their egos won't let them work together.Right.But so their their plan is basically just to wear Spider-Man down and basically make him go through a bunch of trials.
And then they just think they get the jump on him because he'll be tired.
Well, fun fact, Spider-Man actually goes because they don't actually really team up.Spider-Man defeats each villain singularly because he's done it before.And collectively, the Sinister Six, the first one fails.Yeah, of course.
This led to many failures through the year as Kraven just kind of shows up because we talk about this many times.He's a Silver Age villain.He shows up, gets beat by Spider-Man, goes away.He shows up. gets beat by Spider-Man.No, he gets deported.
Yeah, well, he goes away somewhere, right?Whether it's jail or he hides.
So before we get to the next section, which will be what I consider to be the the greatest Kraven, the hunter story of all time, the last hunt, we have to talk about that in these early days, Kraven basically suffers from being perpetually one dimensional.
So, Ashley, I want to ask you why Why other Spider-Man characters have the ability to flourish?
Because during the same time we get great Doctor Octo stories, we get great Green Goblin stories, we get great Vulture stories, Electro, Sandman gets great stories in this time, but Kraven doesn't.
Do you have any thoughts on why he kind of just becomes like, I show up, I try to catch you, goodbye.
I think it might have to do with the Russia of it all actually I wonder if at the time because you know it was very much red hair would have been at the height of the Cold War so I wonder if him just being Russian for them was scary enough, and I wonder if Unintentionally, I don't think anyone set out to be like we're gonna slander Russian people in these
Spider-man maybe they do but I wonder if they if there was sort of an unconscious bias against giving him anything kind of like character development for that reason Interesting my pick is that I don't think he has a personal connection to Peter Parker's real life You're right.
He doesn't and that to me hurts villains.Mm-hmm It's all that's the greatest strength of spider-man's villains, but it's also the greatest weakness in that
Batman villains have sort of a similar problem.
Not really.I don't think so, but not for me.I don't see that as much, but I see your point.But like but for me, Spider-Man villains, like when you think about the great ones, they all like, you know, Doc Ock married me.Yeah.Green Goblin became
Spider-Man Maybe if you didn't make any new friends, there wouldn't be any new villains.
Peter Parker has a bad picker.
Peter Parker should go be lonely, a lonely monk on a mountain somewhere and save New York the trouble.
No, Jason, that's what Luke Skywalker did.We already talked about Star Wars.
I believe Spider-Man would drink some blue milk out of a weird space tit.
The blue milk is from the only three Star Wars movies that have ever happened.
All right.So let's talk about Craven's last hunt.Spoiler alert.It's not the last one. No, but this is a very iconic story.It's amazing.And I wanted to take a moment to share some behind the scenes tidbits about when the book was being developed.
So the idea of a hero crawling out of their grave was an idea that J.M.de Mateus had held on to for quite some time.He's the writer of this story.
The original story was pitched as a Wonder Man limited series involving Wonder Man's half-brother, the Grim Reaper.The pitch was then turned down by editor Tom DeFalco.
DeMatteis did not give up this idea, and then he pitched it to DC as a Batman story, exploring the idea of what if the Joker actually killed Batman?And this aftermath would eventually render the Joker sane.
DC turned it down as there was another story being developed at the time called The Killing Joke, which is very similar.Demetrius then changed the story, making it about Batman villain Hugo Strange, but DC again rejected the story.
Fun fact, actually, years later, Demetrius did write this Joker going sane story, actually in Batman Legends of the Dark Knight, number 65 to 68, if you wanna read that.Demetrius took this same idea,
took it to marvel again and this time he said let's do it with spider-man but he came up with a brand new villain this idea was accepted by marvel and de mateo started writing the story and he was looking through the official handbook of the marvel universe and james de mateo said and i quote
I was sitting in my office, looking through a Marvel Universe handbook, and came across the entry for Kraven the Hunter.
To this day, I don't know if this was something that was established in continuity, or whoever was writing the handbook entry made it up, but in this entry it mentioned that Kraven was Russian.
For me, a total Dostoevsky fanatic, the idea that Kraven was Russian and had the same tortured Russian soul that made those great characters had unlocked this door in my head and suddenly I had a new understanding for the character.
I thought about Kraven and the forces that had driven him to be who he was and this was a character that I had never had any interest in whatsoever.
But I thought with this new thing that he was, he was, I always thought he was one of the stupidest Spider-Man characters.But with this, I suddenly had a new take on the character and knew that he was the perfect character for this story.
Yeah, he's rushing to kill Spider-Man.
Uh, fun fact, uh, J.M.M.De Mateus actually wrote this whole thing before Spider-Man got married in the 80s.And then when it got published, they had to go and revise it to reincorporate that Peter and Mary Jane were married now.
I always forget that he is the person who wrote this book because I think of James DeMatteis as being comedy guy, as being like, blah, ha, ha, just like, yeah, yeah, yeah.And this is a, dare I say, deadly serious comic book story.
So here is... the full spoilers of what happens in this, because, like, I want you to hear the storyline and I want you to read it.
And I really I look like I've got to give some some some props to our researchers in Diego Anthony Nunez for he tried to introduce a lot of comedy elements into this.And I'm not going for that because I think this is a very brilliant story that is.
Grossly misunderstood. I think it is really misunderstood by the comic books community, and I think it's a brilliant story.It's a story that would never be written today.Absolutely not.
So the story is Craven began to unravel for the many years of failed attempts to hunt the spider, and he decided to go after him one last time and to break his notorious rule of hunting to use a gun, but this time it would be a train gun.
So he finds Spider-Man and shoots him with a coma-inducing dart and buries him alive in a coffin under a grave that says here lies Spider-Man outside the state.
You've seen these famous covers of Spider-Man in his black costume coming out of the grave.Now, a little bit more context.The beginning of the story is that Spider-Man is dealing with the death of one of his friends, Ned Leeds, in continuity.
And also the story begins where a gangster has died and Spider-Man goes to the gangster's funeral.So there's a lot of death.
Spider-man's mind so to think about it that way to put spider-man in a grave after he's thinking about death you're kind of doubling down on that drama, so So he buried spider-man mm-hmm now Craven treats this whole hunt in a very ritualistic fashion It wasn't enough to vanquish spider-man he had to show his superiority so Craven made his own black spider-man costume and in this
He does eat a bunch of spiders to show his superiority.He dresses in the black costume and he goes out in New York for two weeks and gives his own brand of severe justice to the criminal underworld.
There's a scene in it where he beats a bunch of thugs that were almost ready to rob Mary Jane in like very serious beatings.And that's the part where like Mary's like, that's not Peter.
So he even vanquishes a villain that Spider-Man at the time could not be, which was this character named the Vermin.Do not worry about him.He's very dopey, sort of like a adult rat, human rat thing.So Kraven beat this guy.
Now, after two weeks, Spider-Man wakes up from the effects of Kraven's bullet. and he digs his way out of the grave.
Spider-Man fights and attacks Kraven and the Hunter does not fight back because he considers himself already the victor for having beaten and replaced Spider-Man. Then he reveals that Kraven's like, hey, I have this guy that you couldn't beat Vermin.
He's right here.I got him in a cage and you should fight him.And he goes both of them to fight each other.And during the battle, because Spider-Man is weakened because he's been in the grave for two weeks, Vermin defeats him.
but Kraven stops it before Vermin can go all the way and kill him.Kraven allows Vermin to go free, and then he tells Spider-Man that he can pursue Vermin if he desires, but that Kraven's hunting days have ended.
Now, it is in this moment, you gotta think about Kraven the Hunter,
For years and years of seeing Spider-Man as this animal, as this beast to kill and conquer, he finally in this moment, seeing him beaten, seeing him very human, seeing him weak, he sees them as a moral man behind the mask, and thusly Kraven the Hunter no longer fears him.
and he no longer needs to hunt him.And part of this is that he also wanted Spider-Man to be, he's trying to make Spider-Man more worthy of the spider to kill him.But then Kraven realizes that like, oh, I'm worthy all along.
I do not need to kill this guy anymore.So Spider-Man goes away.
chasing Vermin, and Kraven is content that he won and defeated his enemy, and he leaves a written confession about what he did as Spider-Man for two weeks, and his impersonation of Spider-Man, and then he takes his own life, and he is buried in the same grave as Spider-Man, wearing the black Spider-Man costume.
Now, Last Hunt was published across Web of Spider-Man 31 to 32, Amazing Spider-Man 293 to 294, and The Spectacular Spider-Man 131 to 132, temporarily taking over all Spider-Man publications because the editors wanted to emphasize the idea that Peter Parker was truly dead.
So they lied to us is what I'm hearing.They just like comics do.
You know, it's this is very much a great story about Craven living out this obsession Because he has a fundamental misunderstanding of Peter Parker Where he's like strength and grit and guts to get through everything Peter Parker has to rely on hope and love to survive this near-death experience, right?
Now and that somebody was letting him drink water for two weeks while he was buried in the ground
Well, you have to go.You have to go to the idea that he's a human mutate.
Yeah, you are.There are some things.Jason and I have had this discussion a lot recent with friends where there are some things we have to just go, come on.But for me, this is like a sticking point where I was like, two weeks without water, two weeks.
Now, here is also the thing about this story.Yeah.This kind of for a long time becomes the only story where a villain win wins.Yeah.Until like Superior Spider.Yeah.From this point on. Craven the Hunter is dead in Spider-Man comic books for 22 years.
Yes, he does not show up again until the late 2000s.So I had to ask.
Do you think this was a smart idea to kill off Kraven the Hunter?And should he still be dead?
Yeah, Kraven should have never come back.He would have been this legendary figure.
He was for a very long time.
And obviously still, we're talking about him today.We talked about the ranking.Kraven is an incredibly impressive villain, even outside of comics, in American literature, full stop, period.
I'm going to compare this to the Weeping Angels from a not-struck season of Doctor Who because I think that they are an all-time great Doctor Who villain and every time they come back I like them less and they're less scary.
I think Kraven is the same.
The same kind of, yeah, treatment.
I agree.I'm going to say this right now.We are going to talk about how he comes back.We are going to talk about some of his other stuff.But I will tell you... Never gets better than this. It never gets better than this.
This is and I will say that Marvel also does the smart thing.They do a very smart move To sort of bring back a craven the hunter and I will tell you about what it is And I actually think they should have committed to it.
But I also want to ask you this Ashley What do you feel about last?stories with villains and do you think are there any other spider-man villains that you think should get this treatment and
that should be like, let's go out with a bang, let's do one big story and then say goodbye to them.
In a world of mainstream perpetual second act comic book continuity, if you put last on anything, you're stupid.
Whether that's the official title or we've seen the last Joker story, we've seen the last Batman story, like a million, million times, like unless this is a standalone Elseworlds contained universe graphic novel, don't call it Last.
It's a lie and and it's something that kind of icks me about about Modern superhero comics, and I know that we're talking about an event from decades ago, but it's still very much like modern comic ladies Yeah, yeah That being said I do think like if you can pull it off mm-hmm
I think it's something that can be really, really impactful.
I mean, we've seen Superman's last story, and that's my headcanon, but then the problem is, is you're stuck rewriting, well, does everything come before this, or does everything that they appear in not matter at all?
I'm sort of a split on it, I guess.I'm like, don't do it unless you're gonna do it really well.
Now we are going to reveal how Craven the Hunter actually comes back and we have a couple of surprises here and we're gonna tell you all about them right after this.GHL talking about Craven the Hunter, he's dead.
Great lesson, I thought you did a really good job explaining that one story he was in.I wish that was true.
I kinda do, we still could've made a meal out of that episode, I'm not gonna lie.But, Well, I mean, we're about 40 minutes in, that's not a bad time.
We're the lion's share of the way, dare I say.
We're announcing part two!Craven the Hunter!Uh, no.
So, surprise!Craven was married and had kids.
I was really hoping for a Lady Craven, honestly.
Oh, you're gonna get a Lady Craven.
So it turned out that Craven, while he was obsessively hunting Spider-Man, he left behind a family of chitlins back in Russia.
Chitlins?What's the Russian version of chitlins?
I don't know.Actually, he has pups.Oh boy.They have pups back in Russia.He had a son. He had a son named Vladimir, who took up the name The Grim Hunter, and tried to hunt down Spider-Man.
And during an escapade hunting down Spider-Man, he also encountered Kane, with a K, who is a deformed clone of Peter Parker who is mentally unwell.The encounter eventually gets Vladimir killed by Kane, because Kane snaps his neck.
There is also, I think it's Alosha? Spell it for me.A-L-Y-O-S-H-A.Alyosha, yeah.Alyosha Cravenoff.She is a child that Craven had with a mistress in Africa.
And he actually had the most striking resemblance of his father, and he even donned the classic outfit.We also have Anastasia Cravenoff, who's Craven's daughter, who's been trained to be the protege of Craven.
and all of them are united by a woman Craven married years ago named Sasha.Now, Sasha began to devise a plan to ruin Spider-Man, banning her family together that included Anna, Alosha, and even the Chameleon to hunt down spiders.
They kidnap a couple of the spider women, including Maddie Franklin, as a sacrifice for a resurrection ritual to bring back Sergei, and there had an initial test run.Their initial test run, they were like, okay, let's bring back Vladimir.
And if it works on Vladimir, then we'll do it.
But if we horribly mangle him like none of us liked him anyway.
Yeah, it doesn't matter.He was the grim hunter.What a name.
So they did this resurrection ritual and they brought Vladimir back as a half man lying creature.
So it didn't quite work.Don't called it.
Sasha surmised they actually needed the blood of the Spider-Man himself.Good thing there's 85 clones of them to make the ritual work.So Kane gets himself captured by the Kravenos because they believe that he was the Spider-Man.Sure.Right.
He is a clone of Peter Parker.
He looks like the Spider-Man.Also, I understand the description of Kane as mentally unwell.But when you said that, I was like, aren't all Peter Parkers like mentally unwell?They're all suffering trauma.
But I understand he's sort of supposed to be this more deranged version of our Peter Parker.
During the 90s, he sort of had black skin and a big scar across his face.He had a weird 90s costume, and he looked weird.So they capture Kane.They're like, you're Spider-Man.We know you're Spider-Man.And he was like, I am.
And they use him for the sacrifice.And this works.It brings back Sergei Craven the Hunter from the dead.
Yes.So let's talk about this. comic book characters now, we're in an era where comic book characters die and resurrect all the time.We don't, we're not in the late 80s and late 90s.
We're not in this time period where Barry Allen dies in 1985 and doesn't come back until 2009.It doesn't come back ever.You know, people actually thought like myself when Superman died in 1992 that he was actually going to be dead.
But now it's like a character dies and it's like six months, they'll be back.Do you think, is there an amount of time that a character is taken off the table that they should not come back?
If you're gonna kill a character, they should not come back.Period.If you're gonna, I don't wanna say fire that trigger, that's very violent.If you're gonna make that choice, commit to it, or it's not worth making.Then be more creative.
Then come up with a more interesting way to take them off the board.I have no problem, especially with villains, of taking them, putting them back in the toy chest for a little bit.
I think if you're gonna make that conscious choice, it should be at least five years.See, I think 10.I said at least.I think 10 or 20 would be my preference.
Because even though it's not true, we're in this weird time period now where the people that are reading comic books have been comic book readers for a long time.
And it used to be the thing that every five years you'd have a new generation of comic book readers. So to me now, I'd be like, man, if it's 10 years, like I'm, we're a generation down the road.
We're two, like two generations down the road now, and there's no bother in bringing it back.If you want to bring that character back, bring it back as a new character.
Also, I think there's a strength in how about letting Spider-Man think they're dead, but we, as the reader, get to see that, oh, they escaped.
That's what I mean, though.
Quote-unquote kill these characters also, then you have to explain resurrection, which is always like icky Especially like oh this one gets really icky I know but in a world where we've seen the Lazarus pit like It's harder to come up with a cooler idea than that.
So just I would much rather Yeah, your hero thinks they're dead and they're hiding out in I don't know a basement in Croatia somewhere or whatever.I
So, Kraven was not exactly thrilled that he came back to life, as it didn't take him long to realize that something was wrong.
He discovered that he was immortal, and when inspecting the spider used for the ritual, he discovers that it was Cain, the clone, and that the blood of this clone blood was what made the ritual wrong.
So, Kraven now has a death wish, that he wants to go find Spider-Man, basically so Spider-Man can kill him, so he can go back to being eternally dead.
Okay.I mean, I was resurrected and a mortal.I think I'd be thrilled, but that's a hot take from Craven.
Now the real Spider-Man arrives.You got to think about it in very, the, the, like, it's the war and peace kind of idea that James Demetrius, this is a guy that he achieved his life goal and he earned his rest.
Yeah.The just say, let's give it.And so now he's like, he had a good Klingon warriors of death.
He's a warrior's death.I was in my version of heaven.
Yeah, you know hunting down all the Sasquatches to my heart content and Nessie Most dangerous encrypted game And and now he's back and he's got to hang out with his family Why do you think I was hunting spider-man all the time because my family sucks.
Also, he's got quite a prolific family, so maybe he wasn't ready to reconcile all of his children in and out of wedlock.
And they obviously suck because they couldn't tell it wasn't a Spider-Man clone.
I mean, yeah, but how are you supposed to know if it's a copy of a copy, right?
Craven was dead.He wasn't part of the resurrection.
He sniffed Kane once and knew immediately.He's like, no, no, no.Yeah, but his children are like lesser versions of that's a clone.
So the real Spider-Man shows up to save the Spider-Man family characters and Craven tries to provoke him, basically putting a knife up to his chest like, come on, push it in, push it in, please.Spider-Man should have done it.
Spider-Man does not take the bait and leaves Kraven in turmoil.The Kravenovs then head off to the Savage Land, you know, like a weird jungle in Anarka.Dinosaur planet, yeah.
Kraven believes a nice family vacation will be a good palate cleanser to restore his family name back to greatness.But then, Kraven's like, let's play a game. The most dangerous game.Basically, it's a survival of fittest kind of game.
And Sasha berates Craven that this is her family.She doesn't have to prove anything.And Craven immediately snaps her neck.
Craven was like, I've been enjoying The Hunger Games, so we're doing a Suzanne Collins.
Vlad becomes enraged and attacks him.Craven kills him. which leaves Ana and Elosha who is disgusted by all this hunting nonsense.However, Ana believes that this is what she's been training her entire life for.
She agrees to Craven's wishes, gladly hunts down her brother and becomes the true heir to the Craven off family.
The one named Anastasia, I'm shocked to learn this.
So, in true comic book fashion, we're gonna kinda jump ahead here.And Kane, the mentally unstable clone of Peter Parker, right?Due to the events of the storyline Spider Island, where everyone in New York got spider powers.Spider Manhattan.
Kane went through a transformation where he became stable, and he became a perfect clone of Peter.He looked like Peter, no more scars, whatever.So he decided, I'm gonna be the new Scarlet Spider, and I'm gonna go live in Houston, Texas.
You know, where all those tall buildings are.Yeah, where there's nothing to web sling across.
Craven tracked him there, believing that Cain could break his immortal curse.Both Craven and Anna kidnapped Cain's friends as a way to motivate Cain's instincts to kill.
And as the two combatants fight, Craven tries to convince Cain that he will never become the hero that Peter is.Cain resists the urge and Craven signals Anna to kill one of Craven's newfound friends, encourages his daughter to kill them all.
And in an instant, Craven, excuse me, Cain, too many Ks, Cain snaps and performs a technique that paralyzes Craven's heart.After a moment to collect himself,
Kane chills out, he breathes hard, he relaxes, and he manages to resuscitate Kraven to life using the same technique.This near-death experience cures Kraven. of his like immortality and now he's mortal again.How does that work?I don't know.
Sure.Fine.Whatever.Because he at this point, Craven spent a lot of time with clones.Sure.Right.As as many characters in the Marvel Universe do.And he's kind of ticked off at his family.Sure.So he says one of them who's left.
So he's like, you know what?I think the only family I want.Is a family of clones of me.So I hate this.
On because you know this is the one thing that every spider-man story every spider-man editor be like you know what I can do clothes You know because I don't know if you've studied nature Ashley If there's any I've seen dolly the sheep stuffed at the museum.
I don't know if you studied nature But if there's any animal or creature in the animal kingdom that screams clones.It's the spider and It's perfectly logical.I don't know why you can't see this.That's why they keep doing it.
I mean, spiders are pretty cool.
More spiders is a good thing.When you look at a spider web, you go, ah, clones.
I look at a spider web and I go, thank you for not allowing all insects to develop the planet in less than three minutes.Thank you, spiders.
So Craven makes 87 clones of himself.
Because that's a number he likes.
There's a much more hilarious number he could be aiming for.
I could be wrong about this.Maybe Google it.Is 87 the year that the last hunt comes out?
Might be a wink, wink, nod, nod to that.Oh, Craven's Last Hunt, book by J.M.Dematias, was published in 1963.No, you're incorrect.Published in, oh, sorry, 1992. That's when the collection Jesus.
All right, never mind.I'm gonna keep on going here Okay, he made 87 clones of himself.He designed and he aged them into adulthood at an accelerator published in 1987 So it is a reference.
I'm sorry Amazon.You let me down.
I was like 1963 spider-man was very dare so Anna learning about this harebrained scheme decides that she wants no part of this and she renounces the Kraven off name and
Now these 87 clones were raised together, they trained together, they were tested together, and they were to prove which one was worthy of his name, so they were set about in sort of a most dangerous game.
Kraven in the meantime went around the world, he rebuilt his fortune, he claimed new territory, and when the time came, only one of his sons survived, and they became the last son of Kraven.I'm not even gonna ask you, I've read this. I sure have not.
No, I know you have it.My question is like, what do you think about the storyline?But I'm going to say this.I've read the storyline.I'm sorry.It's a recent storyline.It's stupid.
It's also why last son of Craven, like last son of Krypton.Like, come on, man, it's right there.
So Craven at this time was ill content with the world.The jungle is being raised by hunters and poachers.And with his newly elected son, they conducted a plan to combat this.
They kidnapped a bunch of the animal themed Spider-Man villains like Scorpion, Rhino, Vulture.They relocated them to Central Park, which was turned into a hunting ground. How did nobody see that this Hunger Games arena was being built there?
I don't know.It's only a hundred square blocks.I remember when this happened.And then they lured Spider-Man to rescue them.And then he became part of the hunting ground too.
The idea was that Kraven was giving these characters the chance to honor the spirit of the animal personas they had taken by surviving this ordeal.Now, who is hunting these people?Well,
Kraven invited a bunch of wealthy would be hunters to use VR headsets to operate these hunter bots think squid games and they would go out into this arena and hunt these characters.However, because this is stupid.
The hunters using these VR headsets, if they died in the game, they would die for real.Why would anybody pay for this?I don't know.It's a stupid comics.
These headsets were connected to the hunter's brains, and this was to demonstrate the true dangers of hunting.But ultimately, the plan was to push Spider-Man.
So, to witness the carnage and survive this ordeal, Kraven was hoping that this would be enough of an ordeal on Spider-Man that he would agree to kill Kraven. Because Craven just wants to die again.Craven again.
He wants to go back to cryptid heaven and have the most dangerous cryptid game.
Well, this is like the weird sort of like death by cop psychology where, like, you can't commit suicide because that's cowardly.So you have to get someone to kill you also. Suicide is not something to be joked about or taken lightly.
If you have suicidal ideations, please look after yourself I just think this trope is tired and then not interesting.
I agree So eventually spider-man goes through much battles.He's beaten down.Yeah, much people die.Yep Craven gives spider-man a choice Kraven can stop this.All of it.
Free the prisoners, the would-be hunters, and also free Billy, this innocent lizard kid, don't worry about him, and Black Cat, who was also trapped inside.
But in exchange, the spider has to, for once, forsake his moral code and kill Kraven the hunter. Spider-Man snaps and he beats down Kraven and manages to collect himself right before killing him.
And in the end, Kraven realizes that the second life has been nothing more than indulging his inner beast because he lost his glory that was the perfect end to his first life.So Kraven then calls off the great hunt.
He frees the prisoners, the spider, all those again.He once again dons a black Spider-Man costume and without eating any of those spiders like before,
He embraces the nobility and the ideals of the webhead, and he runs out to face his perfect son, the Last Son Clone.Sure.Who thinks it's Spider-Man.And the Last Son Clone kills him.The Last Son learns this.
Kraven is buried in his estate again, like wearing the Spider-Man's costume.He leaves a note for his son, giving his son consent
To become the new Craven the hunter and the storyline ends with this new clone Craven is now like again the classic costume like the classic Craven So we went through this whole
Resurrection and family members and fighting Kane in Houston and stupid VR hunters in the stupid Central Park storyline Just to end up exactly where we began exactly where we were in 1987 I mean, I guess the only thing that's really gained from this is you can explain why you can still have like young Healthy virulent Craven in a contemporary setting so because it's a clone body, but it's stupid it is stupid and I grant I think it's like
Craven should have stayed dead.I agree.And you had the perfect out.He had children.Yeah.Just make one of his children Craven the Hunter.Yeah.Or a female Craven.
And we like legacy characters.Marvel doesn't reject legacy characters anymore.Like just dare to write a legacy character.Well, yes. Like, and it can be done, right?Like, like, like, or there's a ton of talent out there.
There's there's multiple mirror masters.Yeah, there's multiple.Like, it's like, this is ridiculous.All this does is water down the original story.That's All it does.
And it muddies the continuity and the character ultimately.
Yeah, it's so ridiculous because if your whole point was to leave him dead again, it says that you appreciate that original story.And if that's the way you feel about it, to me, I'm like, then just don't write it.
If you are like, well, I had to fix it the way it was.No, you're actually ruining it.Just don't write this story.
I also want to add there's no disrespect to anybody who worked on this, because often decisions like this are made at an executive level.
And this was the next this was the next Spencer run.
And then creatives have to sort of execute this.So I don't I don't want it like it's a dumb idea, but I don't necessarily think it's the fault of the people who actually had to make this.
No, I agree.To me, it's more the fault of having to, like, be so beholden to continuity.
Yeah.And it smacks of someone being like Craven was cool.Let's do that again.
I'm gonna throw this out there like this is you know, this is me, you know, we're getting closing in on 10 years of geekish lesson Yeah, it's very much the fact that like I don't know more and more I'm just thinking that every comic book story should be out of continuity.
I really do.Yeah, I mean I really do Yeah, it should be just fun one-offs.
Yep, you know and when they meet up it's just in between other stuff happening So in my head cannon Craven the hunter dies in 1987 nothing happens And wasn't that a wild time?Woo!Yeah, exactly.All right, and that's it for The Kraven.
Now let's get into the recommended reading, Ashley.Woo!Where if you enjoyed this story and you're absolutely puzzled by what Jason could possibly recommend, you can go over to geekhistorylesson.com slash recommended reading.
We have widgets, you can check out these stories in your format of choice, and learn yourself a little bit more about Kraven's last hunt.
All right, the first story on the recommended reading is Spider-Man the Lost Hunt.It's a J.M.de Mateus story.It's him doing his origin story for Kraven the Hunter.It's actually very well done.
So you want to see it from the man who wrote Kraven the Best.
It actually, like, it came out very recently.It's a very recent miniseries, but like, it's like, They keep letting J.M.DeMatteis write Spider-Man stories, which I think is a great choice.No problem with that.And he did Kraven.
Kraven The Last Hunt Deluxe Edition.This is, again, the end all be all for Kraven story.I told you basically everything in it.The art is great.There's a lot of symbolism in the art, which is something you don't see in modern comic books.
So I would seek it out for that.But it is.This collection is a lot of fun bonus material.
Well, there's also a great intro about jay manteaus where he talks about how he wrote and he actually says That he was kind of in a bad place when he wrote this storyline And he says in the intro that he was like if my life was pink and perfect He's like, I don't know if I would have been able to write this story Oh, so this was kind of like an exercising of demons.
That's very it was for him and I think I
What a healthy way to deal with issues.
I think you can feel it.Yeah.And I think that's the reason why to this day we are still talking about this book.It's like the way we're talking about The Killing Joke.Yeah.Yeah.And then the last one is Amazing Spider-Man by Nick Spencer, volume 400.
This involves the Kraven's last hunt and going to Central Park.So I read it this week.It is what has great art by Ryan Otley.
But and it's also it's also one of the most recent Craven offering.So if you're looking for what Craven is up to right now, or maybe maybe you heard the description and you said that actually sounds like fun.Pick it up.
It's bonkers. You've stuck your webs and your podcast into my business for the last time!Would be something that Dr. Octopus might say if we had him on this podcast because the Geek History lesson on Dr. Octopus is now in session.
Hello and welcome to Geek History lesson.I'm Jason Forearmed Inman.
I am Ashley Victoria Robinson.Welcome to your Mind University because you have stumbled onto the podcast where we take one character construct or villain or Alfred Molina from popular culture.Alfred Molina.
And teach you every, he's an icon, everything you need to know about them in about an hour.And as a Ringo Starr fan, I'm very excited to be talking about an octopus today.
Did not know where that reference was going By the way, I want to just because we started it off.We're gonna take this podcast off the rails, right?I just want to Alfred Molina Corner.
If you don't know, Alfred Molina is the guy from the very first sequence, the opening scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark, the very first Indiana Jones movie that's like that says to Indy, give me the whip.I'll give you the idol.That's Alfred Molina.
And when that when I found that out, it broke my brain.So there you go.Alfred Molina Corner.All right.They're not here for Alfred Molina talk, although what if you were Alfred Molina talk?I'll tell you by the time I sound live on stage.
is here because of Dr. Octopus because there is a movie called Spider-Man No Way Home re-starring Alfred Molina as Dr. Octopus that's going to be coming out very soon and so we thought this was the perfect time to talk about Dr. Octopus.
Isn't it interesting he's re-starring It's Dr. Octopus.We have brought him back.Oh, what a universe of nostalgia we live in.Isn't it great?
I think it's more interesting that Sony was like, hey, we made the greatest Spider-Man movie in animation.
Now let's make it with a less interesting Spider-Man in live action.
Well, Alfred Milling, in my opinion, is in the greatest Spider-Man live action movie.That's true.So there you go.All right.So this episode was suggested by Willie Yip, and he is our T.A.for today.
And Ashley, if anybody out there that is listening wants to suggest future lessons or future subjects, where can they do that?
You can do that at geekhistorylesson.com, facebook.com, such geek history lesson, or on Twitter at GHL podcast.There's a bunch of ways to contact us and all those places.People also like to request them in their honor roll reviews.
We are a few months behind on them.So you are welcome to, but they might not be timely.
Yeah, you can I would say you can totally do that, but we might be a little bit We may not get your name.We may miss your name if you do it that way.
We got one coming up in the next couple episodes where someone's repping Max Mercury.People are still holding out for Max Mercury episode.
Well, you're gonna be waiting a long time.Maybe episode 500.Real quick, everyone. You know, we're getting to the end of 2021, and I want to shout out a very extra special listener on the podcast today.
Ashley and I have been traveling for the holidays.We're going back to our native homeland in Canada.And we recently had some plane tickets. be readjusted.
And thankfully, for the first time in my entire life, the Air Canada Twitter account actually helped us.They switched the tickets and stuff like that.And then at the very end of all their messages,
They said, hey, keep making great Geek History lessons.And this was Terry from Air Canada.
So I wanted to give Terry, if you're listening right now, thank you so much for saving our holidays and for saving the multiverse, as I'm gonna tie it into this episode.
Thank you, Terry.We love you.You are truly a sweet baby angel.
He is.So Terry, thank you.Thank you.Thank you so much.All right, let's get into the Tencent Origin, the first section of our podcast.Ashley, what is that?
That is where we tell you all the basics, who's its and what's its galores in case you go to a sweet Spidey villain themed cocktail party and someone doesn't know who Dr. Octopus is.
Which befuddles the mind, right?
Yeah, but you know, we live in a wild world.
Dr. Octopus, of course, is a Marvel Comics character.His first appearance as Dr. Octopus, he didn't appear as anything else, is in The Amazing Spider-Man.Do you wanna guess the issue number?One.Number three.
Ah, so close, but so far.
July 1963, he was created by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, of course.His alter ego is Otto Gunther Octavius.
You know what?Shame on his parents.
His parents are not great people, as we're going to learn. His team affiliations have been Sinister Six, The Masters of Evil, The Thunderbolts, The Legion Accursed, The Avengers, The Mighty Avengers, Horizon Labs, Hydra, and The Hydra Avengers.
His notable aliases have been The Master Planner, The Master Programmer, The Bowery Berm.Okay, excuse me, the Bowery Bum.That's not polite.
The Superior Spider-Man, the Superior Venom, the Superior Octopus, Dr. Elliot Tolliver, the Cosmic Superior Spider-Man, the Cosmo Spider, and the Cosmo Superior.
His abilities are he's a brilliant engineer and inventor, he has a genius level intellect, he is a superb strategist, superb.He wears super strong and durable mechanical appendages, And he has telepathic control over his mechanical arms.
And in some stories, we're not going to really hit on this that much.It is stipulated that Otto must have a sort of base level telepathy.To control the arms?Exactly.So it is gone back and forth about whether he is slightly metahuman.
I like to believe that he is personally.That's my headcanon.
He just tuned into the universe a little bit better, I think.
Yeah.And, you know, this is something I actually really love people's takes on on Twitter at GHL podcast.Maybe we'll put up a poll.Maybe we'll forget.But I'd love to know where you come down on this.
But I wanted to say when you said the Cosmos spider sounds like a Seinfeld character.
OK, all right.All right.But I wanted I wanted to name check that because that is the only time we're going to talk about it.
Great.Now let's get to the meet cute.Oh, the meet cute is the second part of the podcast where we stole a term from romantic comedy writing and tell you where we meet a character and how cute it was.
Ashley, where did you meet Dr. Octopus?
I had from I want to say Burger King, but it might have been McDonald's.OK, the 90s animated series Doc Ock action figure from McDonald's. It was McDonald's, I think it might have been Burger King.
It was the child's kid toy.
Yeah, it was like a three and a half inch.
It must have tied into the cartoon, I would say.
It definitely did.And I really loved it.I love to make my red Batman, which I've talked a lot about on this podcast, fight. The Dr. Octopus in the tub.All of my plastic toys went in the tub as a child.All plastic toys were bath toys in my house.
So that is my first vivid memory is this Dr. Octopus toy.You should try to find a picture.Oh, I can definitely find a picture.
And share it on the socials.So I first encountered Dr. Octopus in
the Clone Saga, the Spider-Man Clone Saga in the 1990s, because, we'll get to talking about it a little bit later, but Doc Ock actually has a pretty pivotal part in the 1990s Clone Saga, and that's where I first encountered him, figured out who he was, and actually, I sort of encountered his replacement, the Lady Doctor Octopus, before I encountered Otto.
Well, she's Catherine Han in Spider-Verse, but this is not Catherine Han.I know, I know, I know.You almost threw me off there.I was like, what?
What are you talking about?This is a Catherine Han podcast.We stay Catherine Han.Con Han 2022.I still think we should make those t-shirts.
Han Con 2022.Make a note about that.
Hey, if you want to design our Hancock T-shirts, tweet us at GHLpodcast.
And if you want to know what this reference is about, go back and listen to the Agatha Harkness episode, which I still can't believe I convinced you to let me do.
I can't believe that in less than 400 episodes in a podcast where we haven't even done Namor, that we've done Agatha Harkness.
We didn't get the Arkness before we did dr. Octopus dear lord Okay, now listeners if you would like to support this podcast and also listen to not one not two but three Exclusive geek history lesson podcast head on over to patreon.com slash jawin.
That's jawin One of those pods is geek history lesson extra where we go more in depth on the main subject and this week We're gonna be talking about some of the worst spider-man villains of all time because I don't know about you But I think Doc Ock is one of the best but we've also talked about that best spider-man villains is a great episode We're gonna do a full-length episode.
I'll tell you what hashtag Best Spider-Man, GHL, hashtag GHL, Best Spider-Man Villain.And we'll do the episode if we get 50 tweets.50, five, zero.So we're gonna talk about the worst Spider-Man villains over there at Patreon.
We also have Jason and Ashley's Excellent Adventures, which is a podcast about our personal lives.
And we have a podcast that I have so much fun that you guys get to hear on the feed very recently, Jason and Jeremy and John about Just League, where myself and my best friend, Jeremy Skinner, we review
Crustis League, the animated series, and we're almost about to finish season one, so go over there, support the pod, get yourself hours and hours of more Jason and Ashley content at patreon.com slash Jonwen.
Thanks to all the super friends who help us out over there.
They're the best.I love our super friends.
They are, and we have a pretty badass discord.I'm just gonna state that out right now.I love our discord, so there we go.All right, Ashley, we're getting into the History 101.
Which is the main meat of the lesson where Professor Jason is going to give you the education that you deserve on Dr. Octopus.
OK, so note that this is a podcast that is not about just reading and telling you about every single Dr. Octopus story.So relax and chill on those comments, everybody.If you're brand new to the podcast.Hello.But, you know.
We're not, we don't need to comment about like, you forgot this story, you forgot that.Dr. Octopus, unlike some of the other characters we've covered on this podcast, I had to synopsize a lot.Because he is in a lot of stories.
And I had to- Because he's Spider-Man's best villain.
You can find me on Twitter at Ashley B. Robinson.
I 100%.He is the best villain.He is the greatest villain of Spider-Man, yes. Besides poverty, which is a very early detail show, okay?
So you know I'm just covering the ones that I think are most important to his character and very relevant now Let's get to some publication history.
Whoa Lee Stanley Mr.. Stanley himself recounted usually in creating a villain the first time I would think of the first thing excuse me Celsius copy edit I would think of
was a name, and then I would try to think of, well, now that I've got the name, who's the character going to be, and what will he do?For some reason, I thought of an octopus.
I thought, I want to call somebody Octopus, and I want him to have a couple of extra arms, just for fun.
But then I had to figure out how to do that.
So for many people post this quote from Stan Lee, a lot of people sort of cite that Dr. Octopus is the man or the scientist that Peter Parker would have become or grown up into if he hadn't learned the lesson of with great power comes great responsibility.
Which is interesting because I would also contend that there is a that is a fairly similar dynamic to Superman and Lex Luthor.Interesting.That if Superman were less noble and less good hearted, he would have become power hungry the way Lex does.
But and that's another reason why I think Dr. Octopus is his greatest villain.All right.
Well, also Dr. Octopus is a vowelism.It's not a slant rhyme because it doesn't rhyme, but it's got the same vowel cluster sound.So like it is satisfying to hear and to say.
Yes.All right.So let's get to his comics origin.He was born in New York to a lower class, to a lower class family.He was an only child.And Otto was raised by an overbearing mother and an abusive father.His dad did hit him.
During his youth, Otto would receive many beatings at home and at school from bullies, and his father would roar at Otto to use violence to fight back against his bullies, while his mother would always caution and say, do the opposite, like show them peace, show them the better side.
Otto eventually after school was awarded a scholarship for MIT, and shortly before, he actually, he got the scholarship right when his father died in a workplace accident.
He became obsessed with schoolwork after his father's death, and Otto applied himself even harder and harder to his studies in science.Now after graduation, Otto was hired by the US Atomic Research Center.You can really tell it's the 60s, right?
And this is where he invented the chest harness with the tentacles that would go on to make him a famous supervillain.Now Ashley, in the story, In their reality of the u.s.. Atomic Research Center.Yes.What do you think?
Oh boy was the original purpose for these tentacles in the Stan Lee and Steve Ditko comic like what was the world reason why Otto built this four-armed contraption Okay, so if I were pitching this and I had to give you the reason giving you a couple of clues to me to me
And I want to say it's going to be sillier than this because it's the silver age, but it's actually not that silly.
You know how when we deal with radioactive materials, you stick your arms through those little tubey things and you're basically on the other side of a wall and it's in a safe room.
I want to say that it's so that they can deal with the dangerous matter and you are at a safe distance from it.
Hey, I'm a professional comic book writer.
I don't know, you could've told me it was to play basketball, and I would've been like, sure, sounds right.
No, it's to, yeah, it was exactly that.It's to help manipulate radioactive substances from a safe distance behind a lead wall.Yeah.And also, because it was the 60s, and everything's nuclear.
Yeah, which makes sense, but it is, it's so funny, and we've done enough of these geek history lessons and now read enough comics over the years that, as you describe this, I'm like, this is the most Marvel 60s concept for a villain, and I love it.
Again, Amazing Spider-Man number three.
Like there's a direct line between Fantastic Four and this storyline.
Now, after Otto made this miraculous invention, he had a couple of bad breaks.He asked his girlfriend, Mary Anders, to marry him.Hooray!But his mother didn't approve and ordered him to break up with Mary.
No, he broke up with her.
No, he broke up with her.I know.So, boo. Then when Otto told Mary the engagement was off they got in an argument and Mary had a heart attack and died During the argument oh no Absolute Christ, so so Otto was kind of having a bad month
Otto became withdrawn, sullen.He threw himself into his work, just like after his father's death, and he was throwing professional, operational caution to the wind.
There was a radiation leak in the lab, which was caused by an explosion, which was caused by his negligence, and it fused the harness and the limbs onto his body.
The radiation simultaneously caused mutations in his brain, allowing him to have direct control over the arms through telepathy.
He was driven insane by the accident, and the damage it caused to his body and mind, this is what led Dr. Octopus to become dedicated to a life of crime.
Fun fact, the accident is also what made his eyes sensitive to light, which is the reason why Dr. Octopus always wears like little goggles or sunglasses.
Yes, which sometimes some writers and artists forget and some use.I like the goggles, so I'm gonna, I like that.
Goggles in real life, dumb. in anime or comic books, always cool.Always very cool.
Yes.Now, Otto, after the accident, he woke up, he was like, crime!And give me some goggles. He was in a hospital, obviously, and he started holding the medical staff hostage.Otto forced them.
He was like, gather me lab equipment so I may continue my work for crime.
I need one.The idea that he's just like, I don't know, bring me an ultrasound machine, like whatever you have, I can work with.But your Dr. Octopus is like the Venture Brothers.
Is so funny to me But spider-man showed up of course good for him because this was amazing spider-man good boy dr. Octopus easily defeated spider-man because he's like 12 times the size well He'd only had two comic books before this He had no idea.
I'm sorry, I've only had two comic books.I'm still figuring it out.Plus he was 16.Yeah, he was an actual child.
16 year old me couldn't have saved Squat.Sorry to any 16 year olds listening.
Doc Ock soon took control of the nuclear research facility and again squared off in a second battle against the wall crawler who was able this time to defeat Doc Ock sort of with a sucker punch to the jaw. He's 16, of course.Good job, Peter.
Honestly, Pete kind of got lucky.Well, to be honest, I'm surprised that Amazing Spider-Man number three didn't end the series and then became the amazing octopus of crime. No, that didn't happen until Dan Slott got his hands on the character.
Yeah, yeah.I mean, Pete barely wins this battle.
It's interesting because just with this sort of brief history that you've given me so far, Doc Ock is very, Otto's very similar to Peter.They've had a lot of the same struggles.
They have the same sort of brilliance, which I think is why later on he kind of becomes a mentor to Peter in some versions.But this is very reminiscent to me of our Peter Parker episodes.
Now, Ashley, we talked about the harness of Dr. Octopus, you know, his tentacles.How many harnesses do you think Doc Ock has had from the start of his career to now in 2021 comic book continuity?Do you have a guess?
It's also smaller than you think.
Oh, there's like an actual answer?I'm not just making a joke.
No, no, no.There is an actual number of how many tentacle Dr. Octopus harnesses he's had.
Well, if it's fused to a spine, he can only ever have one.
Well, he's been unfused from it several times.
I know that.Can you give me, can I get one hint?Is it less than 20?
Okay.I'm gonna say eight.
You're still high.It is actually three three.
Yeah.Oh, I see like I mean it's my man number three I don't know if that's intentional or not.
It's not So the original harness is titanium sure then he got a second adamantium harness.
I thought it was adamantium
And his current harness is an element.No, it's called carbonadium.Sure.Great.Now, just to give you a little bit about all of his harness sort of sort of operate in the same kind of structure here.
The arms are powerful, powerful enough to allow him to walk up sheer concrete walls and move very quickly.Mm hmm. He can almost outrace a train.It has been seen like if all four tentacles are going at full speed.
They're also able to use to grab items both small and large and he can swing things at clubs and sometimes in certain stories we've seen the arms themselves transform and modify but generally that doesn't happen that often.
They're generally just clawy things.
I that is my preference is that they're like hands.
Mine too.He's beaten.By the way, here are some of the villains.We're not going to touch on this very much, but Dr. Octopus, I think because he's such a cool villain, I really think he's a cool villain.I do, too.
He has fought a lot of the Marvel Universe.Interesting.And here are some of the people that he has beaten.That's how strong.
Interesting I don't know if I buy it.
He's beaten the Hulk definitely don't buy it and well He is smart.He is torn apart Iron Man's armor.
I do believe that I think if you can get the jump on him I do think Doc I could do that So those are some of the villains that in continuity dr. Octopus or heroes that dr. Octopus has
Beaten.So, like all the heroes created and written in the Silver Age, Otto or Doc Ock, he goes through a series of ventures where he fights Spidey, he goes to prison, then he escapes, and it happens all over again.Rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat.
So here are some minor beats.We're not gonna cover every story.Very early on, he kidnapped Betty Brandt, J. Jonah Jameson's assistant, and then was sent back to prison.
Doc Ock then went after a gangster named Blackie Gaxton, and then was sent back to prison. And one time when he was in prison, a team of specialists found a way to remove his harness.Now he was believed by the prison to be normal again.
Otto was cured, right?And without his power, they placed his tentacles in another part of the facility.They locked him up.And it was at this time
for the first time ever that Otto showed that he could control his arms mentally, even when separated over short distances.He used this to his advantage.He summoned his tentacles to return to him and escaped from prison.
Now, this is an ability that would come up time and time again.There have actually been stories where the tentacles have crossed the country to find Otto or that it could like sort of sense him.
Why don't they just shoot them into space?
I don't know.There's so much space.Well, because think about it.Right.Think about sort of a military complex society.OK.Yeah.You have this advanced technology.
If we could only figure out a way to duplicate it, but where it wouldn't make somebody insane for crime. Then it would be very helpful.
That's well, yes, but that would be the thought.
Yes.The logical answer is, yes, shoot the damn things in this or incinerate them.
Look, I know this is a comic book, so we got to keep them around.But I like to assume in a space.
But I wanted to mention this again, the telepathic link, especially since it's such a big part of the Sam Raimi Spider-Man 2 movie.
Yes, I that's my favorite. like origin of Dr. Octopus is where the tentacles are coming up.
Well, the tentacles are like alive in that movie.Yeah, they're eerie.Yeah.No, Ashley, we're going to talk about your favorite super group.You love them.We've talked about them so many times before.Teen Titans.
No, the Sinister Six.Oh, my favorite to be.OK, I do want listeners to know I have been pitching best Sinister Six for literal years.
We're waiting for the right moment.We will do it.
When they finally make that Sinister Six movie.
I have been pitching it for literal years.
So Ashley, as we've talked about before, Dr. Octopus is the founder of the Sinister Six.Sure.If you say so.I believe I asked you this on the original Spider-Man podcast.How dare you?Many, many years ago, and I think you got it horribly wrong.
I can't wait to do it again.Let's see in 300 episodes, Ashley, Can you name the original members of the Sinister Six, the first Sinister Six group?Obviously, Otto is one.
Not Falcon, Vulture.Correct.Rhino.
Incorrect.Ouch.There's no ladies on it, right?It's all dudes.It's all dudes.Electro.Correct.Spectacular, Lizard.No, that's wrong.
Incorrect.Is there a goblin? Nope.Norman doesn't join groups.Come on.
Norman Osborn, I mean, everybody.Sinister.You have three more.
Oh my God.Venom is too late.
Just guess Spider-Man villains.
I am trying to.I think it's revealing.
Think about some of them that have already been in movies.
Green Goblin. It's Batman and then it's Venom.And then it's I don't know who the Andrew Garfield villain is.
Who did Jake Gyllenhaal play?
Correct. Who who I can't remember the actor's name the gentleman who played John Lennon in Nobody He was also kick-ass He was in Godzilla.Oh, he has been announced as this spider-man villain in a solo movie.Oh boy.
I don't know Craven the hunter oh I didn't think Craven would have been around is it Aaron Taylor Johnson.Yes, bad cook silver Yes, I should yeah, you know what he was great in the party.
He's not a bad actor, but that's not Hashtag not my quicksilver.
I actually think he's a great actor anyways.Yeah, so Dog got gathered.
I think I did really good I just gotta say by the time we hit episode 600.I hope you get all six Look, it took me about 150 episodes to learn the crisis and we don't bring I don't know.
I still don't know if you know the ball.
I mostly know the order they go in, so if we skip the crime scenes.
But thank you for, I think, really illustrating our telepathic bond as I struggle through this.
There you go.So Doc Ock gathered all these people because they had faced and also been defeated by Spider-Man, like him.And he tells the villains that only together can they defeat Spider-Man.And although Otto has an endgame into this plan,
in Avengers Endgame?His plan is to send all five of these guys against Spider-Man.And he actually believes that Spider-Man will beat them all.
And once they fail to kill their foe, Otto then thinks that he can step in because Spider-Man will be weak and tired and worn out from the other five villains.
That's high key a very good plan.It's not dumb at all.
But it doesn't work because Spider-Man sucker punches him again and Doc Ock is sent to prison.Peter knows what works.He's a genius.Then Otto escaped, got himself to an underwater lair and changed his name to the Master Planner.Wait, really?Yeah.
He's an octopus, yeah.Ew.That's probably in Hudson Bay.No, that's not in New York.
That's in Canada.The Hudson River is in New York.
Hudson River, that's what I was going for, thank you.
But I was like, is it the East River or the Hudson?They're both really dirty.
So his goal was to develop a radiation ray in which he would rule the world.And his plan was fated to entwine with Spider-Man's when Aunt May fell sick.
Now Peter- She's like 80, so.
I don't know how old she's supposed to be.It's weird, her age bops around quite a bit.I would say definitely at this time, she's more towards the elderly, but it's interesting as Spider-Man stories have gone on, we've de-aged May.
We've made her sexy.Well, we've made her Marisa Tomei.Yeah, who is sexy.And doesn't have gray hair.Yeah, yeah, yeah.So Peter, in early Amazing Spider-Man Adventures, gave Aunt May a blood transfusion.Now, Ashley, what's the problem with that?
Oh, Peter's got radioactive spidey blood.
He has radioactive blood because of the 60s and everything's tied to nuclear.Yeah.So it's killing out on May.Yeah.So Peter found out that there is a formula that could help her.
Unfortunately, that formula was stolen by the master planner slash Doc Ock to further his plans.So Spider-Man tracked Doc Ock to his underwater base.In the ensuing fight, Spider-Man became trapped underneath a collapsed building.
And seemingly doomed to his death, Spider-Man was ultimately able to draw upon the sheer force of his own will to summon the strength to escape.
This is the very famous Spider-Man moment called, If This Be My Destiny, The Amazing Spider-Man, number 31 to 33.
This is the cover.We all, comic fans, if you know Spider-Man.I'll share it.Yes. We all know this moment.It was homaged in Spider-Man Homecoming.Yes.
So when he's like, ah, Peter David, we've talked about him on the podcast before, creator of Spider-Man 2099 and very famous Spider-Man writer, Aquaman writer.He observed and has said this.
After Spider-Man's origin, this two page sequence in Amazing Spider-Man number 33 is perhaps the best love sequence from the Stanley Steve Ditko era.
In fact, this story was chosen as number 15 in the hundred greatest Marvel moments of all time in a poll taken in 2001.And editor Robert Greenberger, who we've talked about in this podcast before,
wrote in his introduction to the story that these five pages are a modern day equivalent to Shakespeare as Peter Parker soliloquy sets the stage for his next action.
I mean, none of them are wrong.I've read these three issues.They're fantastic, particularly this sequence. You know, it's so funny because I'm trying to think of what other Spider-Man stories kind of might stack up in this.
And like Spider-Man no more.It's kind of the next thing that comes to mind for me.
Yes.It's interesting.I would almost argue that if you're talking about classic Spider-Man stories, it's hard for this not one to not be number one because it has it has its best villain.I think it's between this and the death of Gwen Stacy.
May is in trouble.Yeah.Which we love.And he overcomes
I'll stand up, Spider-Man, stand up.Yeah.So again, Ashley will share a picture.You guys are good to see it, but you all know this cover.So Doc Ock again went through a series of nefarious deeds that kept ending up in him in prison.
For example, he had a battle with Spider-Man that resulted in Captain George Stacy's death.Who is that, Ashley?That's Gwen's daddy.That is Gwen's dad, yes.Doc Ock is the one responsible for that. No, I saw the movie, it's a lizard.
He attempted to wed May Parker, Aunt May, in order to acquire an island with an atomic plant, which she had recently and unknowingly inherited in a will.
That is a lot of people's plans in various Spider-Man stories is to marry Aunt May, I will say.
She's a hot ticket.I thought you meant to get a nuclear facility.That's my plan.That's my 2022 goals.I love that for you.Hashtag squad goals, get a nuclear facility.
He also attempted to poison New York with printer's ink.Yep.He battled the Punisher and Spider-Man.Oh, sure.He battled the owl.
And during the Secret War storyline, Dr. Octopus was taken to the Beyonders battle world where he fought a horde of heroes and plotted against Dr. Doom for the leadership of the group of villains.
Then after this, Doc Ock kind of became less of a threat, and here's why.So, Doc Ock went to war with the Owl, who is sort of a kingpin-like gangster who looks like an owl.Kind of a lame one.
Spider-man and the black cat Ashley do you wanna explain who the black cat is the black cat is spider-man's version of Catwoman?Yeah, basically Felicia Hardy.
Yeah, she's a jewel thief She's literally a cat woman and she's more attracted to spider-man than she is Peter Parker, but it's a child Yeah, she's sort of his adventurous college fling.Oh Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's the hot older woman.
Yes So spider-man black cat attempted to intervene mm-hmm Doc Ock beat the crap out of both of them and the confrontation actually left black cat near death
Wow, I didn't know that Peter was distraught and he was angry and he was sad and he Figured that the only way that he would be able to beat Doc Ock was he was like I will have to basically die but I have to go all I have to go all and I've got to kill this guy and
And those are the superhero stories that we love because it's the ultimate sacrifice.
So it's an amazing story.Peter basically goes to all of his friends and says goodbye because he thinks he's going to die.And the story is basically Spider-Man beats The holy live-in hell out of dr. Octopus.
He sucker punches and to kingdom come basically This is actually in a great bill mantlo story icon Like guardians of the galaxy, it's bill man.
Well, you like yeah, he had a great run in the spectacular spider-man and this is where the story is told so
It is said that after this storyline, that Doc Ock sort of took on an inherent fear of Spider-Man because he saw how far Spider-Man was willing to go.
And to be honest with you, this sort of neutered Doc Ock in comic book storylines for almost a decade.
Interesting.Do you think someone from editorial was like, he is It's too powerful.Maybe so.We have to take him back a step or two.
Maybe so.Maybe they were worried that he was becoming, like, maybe they didn't want him to become Spider-Man's big bad.Or maybe, like, against an actual child.Well, at this point, he's, like, in his mid-20s Spider-Man.
Oh, okay.I thought he was closer to 18, so that's my mistake then.He's in, like, college right now.
So it's a great storyline.But this, yeah, we're going to kind of skip past that period.But I wanted to when I grew up in comic books, Doc Ock was kind of a joke.He was kind of like, who's the overweight guy with the bowl cut?
This is kind of what starts that.
I will say around the 90s, maybe the late 80s, they start giving Otto like a real haircut, like the way normal people.And it's still mostly the bowl cut, still kind of that little Beatles cut.But around then the hair gets a lot more.
Well, and also the movie in 2004 does a lot to redeem him as well.And Alfred Molina's cool.And the Amazing Spider-Man cartoon.
Yes.Yeah.Well, he has a bowl cut in the cartoon.
Yes.But he's actually like a real threat in that.
He's the big bad of that series.
I don't know.It's interesting.I think it's probably more it's probably more of the Green Goblin in that show.
Oh, interesting.I maybe or Hobgoblin.
No, actually, you know what?My memory is that it's actually, you know what?Thinking about it.And now this is also in that, too.I kind of think the big villain of that cartoon is the kingpin. Oh, interesting.Yeah.
Anyways, Ashley, I want to ask you, so Spider-Man beat the holy living hell out of Dr. Octopus, caused a 10 year fear mongering.What do you think this tells us about Spider-Man, Ashley?Or what does this tell us about Peter Parker?
Oh, that's interesting.I think this is definitely, if you're looking at the timeline of Peter Parker and publication history, I think this is probably a bit of a leveling up.I think this is a maturation of the character.
Kind of like I would equate it based on about how old we're guessing he is to sort of the way that you Kind of have your last growth into adulthood when you leave University or when you strike out on your own, so I think this is a definitely a power-up for spider-man nice for me It says you don't mess with his booze, okay?
You don't mess with spider-man's cape And you don't mess with Spider-Man booze.
That's really funny.Now I just want a piece of fan art of like all the Robins hanging off escape.
Actually, I want to ask you, I don't know if we've talked about this before.Who is your preferred Spider-Man boo?
Oh, Mary Jane.Yeah.And it's because I love and we've talked about it on the show before.I think we I think we did an episode on it in Spider-Man Blue.
Uh-huh.We did do an episode about that. Go check it out, everybody.
There is it really.I love I like Gwen Stacy better than Mary Jane, but I think Mary Jane is his I don't believe in soulmates, but his soulmate, his actual soulmate.
And I like in Spider-Man Blue the moment at the end where she comes up and she's like, I miss her, too.I like the idea that they were this trifecta because I look at Gwen the way you look at Lana Lang for Superman. Oh, interesting.Interesting.
So she's like the first crush in the seminal crush, but they were never going to be together.It was always going to be Mary.But tell me who your preferred boo is.
I like Mary Jane, but I think it's Gwen Stacy.
I won't read those comments, everybody.Or the death threats.I think that Gwen is the first person that sees the potential in Peter Parker. Oh, I love that the potential that he hides because that's what spider-man is to him, right?
It's the place where he can feel comfortable.
He can crack jokes He can be super smart because in high school he gets beat up for all those same and he's popular and he's popular spider-man well, I mean, you know except for the great with great fame also comes great exactly and
And Gwen is the first person to see Peter as that I think Peter is she's the first person that can like pierce through the veil that is his defenses and his insecurities so and I don't know, I like Mary Jane.
I really do like Mary Jane as a character, and I love their romance and stuff like that, and I love that.It is in my head canon that they get married and they- They have Mayday.And they have Mayday.They have Mayday and they have Benjamin.
The MC2 continuity in my head is canon.Absolutely, me too, yeah.
And she puts on Uncle Ben's suit.
I also do believe that Gwen is the person that Peter can never let go of.
Yes, yes, yeah.But I also think, I think Mary knows that.Like I don't think it's like a sore spot between them.
Well, that's why when we talked about Spider-Man Blue a long time ago, that's the thing I love about that story is that Mary, that's why Mary is such a great.
She's a great gal and she's a great wife is because she can realize that.And I also liked that in that story, they made them friends.Yes.Instead of enemies.Instead of rivals.Which is very trope.
Yeah, it's the Betty and Veronica thing, right?It's like, you could maybe have been rivals, but it's more interesting if you were friends.
All right, now enough of these boos, we gotta get talking about Doc Ock.We gotta talk about Doc Ock's boos.Well, Doc Ock sort of does become a boo of Spider-Man, we're gonna get into that.He also gets a boo in Superior Spider-Man.That's right.
Now, shortly after his defanging.That's an interesting phrase you picked.I guess detenticling is what I should have said.Oh my God.Doc Ock was able to learn Peter Parker's secret identity.
But it was fine, because he was brutally murdered by Kane with a K. K-A-I-N-E.Now Ashley, this is not how it actually happened, but I'm gonna ask you a question here.Because I'm gonna ask you, do you know who Kane is?
And I'm gonna give you a clue, because Kane killed Doc Ock with a sucker punch.
So this is a nasty throwback joke to our original Peter Parker episode.Kane is a clone of Spider-Man.
Yes, yes, yes he is.Is he Scarlet Spider? He becomes the second Scarlet Spider.Cain was the Jackal, the person who cloned all the Peter Parkers.Cain was the first deformed clone of Peter Parker.
He continued to degenerate, he became further deformed, he became mentally unstable.He actually killed Doc Ock with a neck snap.And he becomes the second Scarlet Spider after Ben Reilly.Now, I will say to everybody out there,
There is an interesting storyline in Spider-Man the Clone Saga, and if you guys want a Spider-Man the Clone Saga key history lesson, please suggest it.We'll do it. It would be a very interesting story.
It would be a very interesting lesson to cover before the next Spider-Verse movie next year.Oh, interesting.But enough about clones because Doc Ock doesn't stay dead for long.
Octavius's student, Carolyn Trainor, took over as Dr. Octopus 2 until the original Otto was resurrected by a branch of the mystical ninja cult known as The Hand. When he is resurrected, he is revealed to have no memory of Spider-Man's true identity.
That's convenient.As the discovery was not recorded on the computer chip that was used to reconstruct his memories, because as we all know, mystical ninja cults love microchips.Love technology.
So always keep your mind- You think it was like four gigs in the 90s?
Two gigs?I mean, it wasn't even a gig, Ashley.It was like, if you had 36 megabytes, you would be considered big.
I remember we had those zip drives, and I want to oh my god I want to say a zip drive was like 50 megabytes, and we were like that's so much information.
I remember having a Technology corner ancient technology corner.I remember having a card for my digital camera.That was 250 megabytes
Ooh, big spender.Yeah, fancy.So anyways, the lesson of that is to keep your mind chip hard drives active, kids, and back up.Yeah, really.So now Doc Ock decided to kick it up a notch.Why?Because he found out he was dying again.
Oh, I thought he got frosted tips.Nope.He learns after his years of fighting, with Spider-Man and other heroes, they have irreparably damaged his body.Boy, I can't imagine why.Leaving him with only months to live.
Now, Dr. Octopus, now in telepathic control of four additional cybernetic limbs.Unnecessary.They are unnecessary.And several Octobots, little like little octopus-y little things.Yeah, I'm familiar with Octobots.
Or what some would call overcompensating. With the Octobots, he takes control of all technology in New York, and he hopes to transform the city into a utopia that is totally controlled by him.But of course, he's defeated by Spider-Man.
His next plan is to use goblin blood, the blood that has been infected with the Norman Osborn green goblin serum. that gives you super strength and makes you go cuckoo bananas.He wants to get that to cure him, and that fails too.
And then in the ends of the Earth storyline, Doc reteams with his favorite team, the Sinister Six, and with his health deteriorating.Did I say that right?Yep, deteriorating.And death coming soon, he uses what he calls octosatellites
to scorch the earth by harnessing the greenhouse effect.He announces his plans to the world and offers to reverse the effects of global warming in exchange for the world's total obedience.And he does this all from his underwater base.
Remember that place, Ashley?
And Greta Thunberg streams in live and says, shame on you.
Spidey this time teams up with the Avengers, because he's a member of the Avengers at this point.And he beats Dr. Octopus again.
Or so we think. Sucker punch sucker punch not the movie using a modified octobot Octavius Lee Octavius That should be a verb hashtag Octavius Octavius Lee Write that down.
I am Octavius Lee you want to do something spectacular you got to do it Octavius Lee Now, Octavius successfully transfers his consciousness into Spider-Man in a last page reveal that was written by Dan Slott.It's awesome.It is really good.
I recently reread it and it like.Slaps you across the face so hard, so. It leaves him with Peter's memories and Peter's body.And Peter Parker is now in Dr. Octopus's dying body.
Leaving Peter for dead, Otto decides to take on Peter Parker's life for his own.
And then he does that dance sequence from Spider-Man 3.
Yep.Yep.Dan, I touched Dan.He becomes a bully.Toby Maguire, which is a meme now, which is so funny.Yeah.It was then that Peter and Doc Ock's body tried to redo the body switch with Ock.But Otto had taken precautions to keep that from happening.
And he put up a metal plate, basically, where it couldn't put up a metal plate like a conspiracy theorist.Or I think it was a carbon.Yes.Yeah.Peter.
through this though, was still able to connect with Otto's mind and forced him to relive all of Peter's moments, showing Dr. Octopus the meaning of a great power comes great responsibility and how much Dr. Octopus had wasted his entire life.
As a result, Peter's personality traits engrafted onto Dr. Octopus and Dr. Octopus, after Peter's death inside his body, inside Dr. Octopus's body, decided to continue on as Spider-Man and make up as his past mistakes as the superior
Spider-man mm-hmm and this leads into the storyline that gave Dan slot more death threats than any writer should ever get in their entire life And overall actually I want to ask well.No one should get any death threat exactly ever, but yes
Do you like the Superior Spider-Man storyline slash series?
Yes, it's amazing.It's Superior.It's outstanding.It's one of the coolest new takes on Spider-Man without just inventing a new spider character because I love Miles and I love Gwen and I love Silk.
But sometimes I'm like, there are so many freaking spiders.
There's too many spiders.
It was really creative.I love Anna Maria, who's a huge part of this storyline, his love interest.I also love the way they play with her height with the art.Like sometimes she seems like a full-sized person.Yeah, Superior Spider-Man is amazing.
And I hope people learned by reading it that if you don't like something, Uh, it will.It's comics.It will go away.Yeah, just wait.
Um, and I it's unfortunate because, you know, the storyline is wrapped up, so it's done now, but they keep sort of trying to, like, eat their cake and have it, too.
And I don't think that outside of this original run, I don't think there's room for this character in the six one six.
I agree and we're gonna talk a little bit about so yeah everyone out there you can actually request a fuller lesson on superior spiders more than enough but for here I'm just gonna give you the basic bullet points so as the superior spider-man he defeated the new sinister six his own team he defeated the vulture and then numerous of
many people peter's friends started noticing changes in peter's behavior and Octavius decided to become more efficient and he utilized thousands of spider bots like the autobots to patrol They're cool.
Yep to patrol the city so thereby they could take care of crimes that peter never could in his life so that way he'd have a social life and Also be spider-man auto also enrolled at empire state university when he learned that peter was not a doctor and
Yep, his doctorate.He was like so offended that he's not a doctor.And then Peter meets Anna Maria Marconi, who becomes Peter's tutor for his doctorate.I love her.He also kills the villain Massacre while dressed as Spiderman with a gun.
He tricks then Mayor J. Jonah Jameson into giving The Raft, which is a superhero prison, as Spider-Man's base, and he calls it Spider Island.And he gets a whole henchman army, but the henchman army is for good.He meets Spider-Man 2099.
Which you love.And he gets involved with the very first Spider-Verse event.It's a great part of Spider-Verse.And he creates the company Parker Industries.
Yes, look, I know it's just a take on Stark Industries.It's not all that inventive, but to me, that is so interesting.Of course, Peter should own. this huge company.
If we have to have people running major corporations like that, Peter Parker's the kind of person that you theoretically want in charge of it.
Now, eventually, Otto figured out that Peter's consciousness was still inside his brain.And to his shock, Otto could now hear Peter inside his mind.
Eventually, the superior Spider-Man faces off with Norman Osborn, who had returned and started calling himself the Goblin King.
Otto excuse me Norman figured out that Otto was in control spider-man I mean very Norman would know who Peter is better than anyone and of the villain and it stunned odd Octavius yeah So the Goblin King revealed that he had taken on a Maria Marconi his girlfriend hostage and Otto started searching the city for her in the subway
He found himself in a battle and he found himself with the decision to save a young child who was named Amy Chen Otto Hesitated as there was a chance that by saving Amy he would injure himself Yeah, and if he injured himself, he would not be able to find on a Maria.
Mm-hmm the consciousness of Peter Parker still in his brain
Pushed Otto into saving the child Which Otto did and Otto was not injured and Otto then realized that he failed as a superior spider-man because he and his brain saw no way that he could save that kid and not injure himself and Peter was able to find a way to save that kid and not injure himself so Otto immediately
Decided to give Peter control back of his body so that Peter could save on a Maria because he truly loved her Octavius arrived to Parker Industries and Proceeded to a racist consciousness with the scanner and let Peter Parker live fully again.Mm-hmm
There's a great moment when the reveal happens actually in superior spider-man where spider-man shows up again, and he puts on his old costume He goes to fight Norman yep, and Norman calls him Otto and I can't remember what the joke is but like Peter makes a stupid joke about his underwear or something like that and Norman goes Oh God, it's you
So Doc Ock died again.And that's the bare bones of Superior Spider-Man.There is more than enough to talk about again.And again, we've been suggesting a lot of full episodes.
That's just to show you that Doctor Octopus crosses so much of the Marvel Universe.
And so many key moments in the Marvel Universe.
So I'm gonna throw out another hashtag here.Anticipation of Spider-Verse 2.If you wanna do Superior, yes.Hashtag Superior, yes.At GHL Podcast on Twitter, we will do a full-on Superior.We could have a spider month. if we wanted to do it.
Do we want to do a spider month?I love that.Okay.So hashtag spider month, if you want to throw it out there, if you want to, whenever spider verse comes out next year, I think it's November.We could do a spider month.
We could do, we could do the spider verse event.We could do superior spider man, spider man timeline.We could do spider man time.We could do the clone saga.We could kick off all these weirdo kind of fun spider events.
I'd have to bring some other guest professors, because I don't think I could cover that much spider.
For sure, we can also look at our, we have a 400 item suggestion list.I'm sure there's a couple things on there we could cross off.
So, Doc Ock is actually not dead. What?He's later revealed to have survived by implanting his mind in the living brain, which is a robot that worked at Parker Industries.
Octavius later finds out that his original corpse has been stolen by the new Jackal, so that it could be cloned.And Otto survived by transferring his consciousness into the Jackal's proto-clone, which is actually kind of a hybrid Peter Parker clone.
Otto is now in a new Peter Parker body.Wow.Imagine that.And with a new, more handsome body, he went to go work for Hydra as a superior octopus.But then eventually he still had some tinges of Peter Parker goodness inside his brain.
And he returned to his costume as the superior Spider-Man and to his own solo series with Peter's memories.And Anna Maria still influences decisions as Otto would go on to remake himself and call himself Elliot Toliver.But
Eventually because Otto as a superior spider-man has participated in basically every spider-verse event Yes, yeah spider-verse spider dead, and I think there's another one Otto would Island oh That's not a spider-verse.
I know I know would be targeted by a variant Norman Osborn who would actually become an evil Spider-Man on his earth.And he feuded with the spirit of Spider-Man.
And to defeat this Norman Osborn, this evil Spider-Man, Otto needed the one ally that every Spider-Man writer eventually gets around to using.
And Ashley, would you like to make a guess about who this ally is that Otto pulls in, that every Spider-Man writer uses when Spider-Man gets in trouble?Death. Uh, nope.I'm talking about Mephisto the devil.Oh, Jesus Christ.
Everyone's favorite pal Mephisto.
Why are people so interested in Mephisto?
I'll tell you what, 2021, the year of Mephisto.Yeah, truly.Every time there was like a weird Easter egg, people were like, even in squid games, people were like Mephisto.So Mephisto showed up.Great.And said, hey,
Auto, I'll give you your mind back to how it was before you joined with Peter, before all your times as Spider-Man, and I'll give you your original body back.This would allow for
this fake body, this Elliot Tolliver, to convince Varian Osborn that there was no one left to kill, that there would be no superior Spider-Man.So, Lana was there, and she pleaded with Otto not to do it, but he did it anyway.
Yeah, because he's a bad guy.
So Mephisto altered some of Otto's memories.Otto remembered some of his heroics as a superior Spider-Man, but he doesn't remember like any of the time as the superior Spider-Man.Without Peter's influence, Otto quickly returned to crime.
And he's been searching around trying to fill in the missing gaps in his memories because he knows that he has a hole He came across the newest spider-man villain called kindred.
Oh, yeah Demon centipede guy who snuck one of his centipedes into his ear and convinced Otto to reform his favorite team the sinister six
Yay!Is there a lady on it this time?
No.Nope.And that's where we're gonna leave Dr. Octopus right now, because he's villainous, he's back in his old body, and he's got his old haircut again.Because time is a donut and nothing changes.Exactly.
And just to let you know, he's appeared in most of the Spider-Man cartoons.Again, we actually said he was played by Alfred Molina in Spider-Man 2 and Spider-Man No Way Home that we haven't seen yet, Molina talk.
And if you don't know, and if you haven't played it, he is the Big Bad.
Slight spoilers for a game came out two years ago Because he starts up the game is a good guy He is the big bad of the ps4 spider-man game, which is excellent by the way cool cool cool, so there you go That's the lesson on dr. Octopus.
Yeah Good job, so yeah spider month hashtag spider month hashtag superior.
Yes hashtag Octaviously has take ghl best spider-man villains there you go.We could do that during the spider month as well We could we could also finally do the sinister six.
Yeah, I don't know about that one Ashley, what's the next category?
The next section of the podcast is the recommended reading, where Professor Jason is going to recommend some books that you read if you want more Doc Ock in your life, or perhaps more accurately, more Otto Octavius in your life.
And you can find those by going to geekhistorylesson.com slash recommended reading.
There's these cute little widgets, you click on them, you buy the things that you're interested in in your format of choice, and you steal money from Jeff Bezos and give it to us instead.
I'm gonna say to Marvel right now, I can't believe there isn't a best Doc Ock stories or a Spider-Man versus there.There was a Spider-Man versus Doc Ock.I don't trade.
I don't think they think it's out of print.
Yeah, it's out of print.And especially since he's coming back in this movie, I can't believe they haven't made one of these for every one of those guys coming back like the best electrode, the best lizard, the best that doesn't exist.Yeah.
This list, I'm just gonna say, is a little lacking, but I blame it on Marvel.Thanks, Marvel.Thanks, Marvel Collections.The first one is Spider-Man Masterworks, Volume 1.
It collects the first 10 issues of Amazing Spider-Man, including Doc Ock's first appearance.He actually appears in it more than once, so you're gonna get a couple Doc Ocks.
You're also gonna get some other people in there, like the Lizard and all kinds of people. Uh, Spider-Man Big Time Volume 3 Big Time is the series that collects ends of the Earth.
That's where Doc threatens climate change on the world, global warming on the world.It's a really good story.It also is the setup to Superior Spider-Man, which leads me into my number three choice.
Volume one of superior spider-man which also collects the first couple issues where Doc Ock does the mind swap Yes, you can see how it happens.It doesn't just start with them him as spider-man.So there you go
who is the mysterious Spider-Man villain that wears a fishbowl for a helmet.We are talking about Marvel's Mysterio because his Geek History Lesson is now in session.Hello and welcome to Geek History Lesson.I am Jason Fishbowl Inman.
I am Ashley Victoria Robinson.
Welcome to your Mind University because you have stumbled onto the podcast where we take one character, construct, or super villain from popular culture and teach you everything you need to know about them in about an hour and this week,
There's a teeny tiny little movie about a bug guy that's opening up.
So we thought we'd talk about the bad guy.
There is a film out there called Spider-Man's National Lampoon's European Far From Home Vacation and it co-stars Jake Gyllenhaal as Mysterio.Tom Holland is Spider-Man of course.Spider-Man Far From Home is what we're talking about.
Mysterio is the main villain of this movie and we're going to be focusing on the main Mysterio, the Quentin Tarantino. Beck version.Now, there are other versions of Mysterio.We will briefly cover them.
But since the movie is dealing with Quentin Beck, we're going to deal with Quentin Beck is Quentin Beck.
Oh, mad because his cowboy boyfriend could not be a cowboy with him.
I mean, he might be mad that his cowboy boyfriend has passed away.I'm really hoping this is Birkbeck Mountain 2, Spider-Man prom.No, I doubt it.I really doubt it.This Mysterio lesson, of course, was suggested by Alexander Ebert and at WMBirk88.
Holy smokes, there's more than one request for this.There's two requests for Mysterio.
So there you go.Let's hop into the first section of our podcast. 10 Cent Origin.
And if you are not familiar, the 10 Cent Origin is the first part of the podcast where we tell you, Jason will tell you, I will try not to mess up the intro, all of the basics, who's its and what's its and power sets and creators and basically everything you need to know in case you go to a really cool Spider-Man themed cocktail party and someone's like, what's up about Mysterio?
Mysterio, of course, is a Marvel Comics villain.His first appearance is in The Amazing Spider-Man number 13 in June of 1964.He's an old villain.That might actually not be his first appearance.We'll talk more about that later.
He was created by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, and his alter ego is, his real name is Quentin Beck.His team affiliations have been the Magia, the Mob, and the Sinister Six.One of his most notable aliases is Dr. Ludwig Reinhardt.
And his abilities have been special effects.He's an illusion expert.He's a master hypnotist.He's a master magician.He's a master at sleight of hand.He's an amateur chemist.He's an amateur roboticist.We're going to get more into that later.
And he has not. Great hand-to-hand skills.Exceptional hand-to-hand skills.
You know, you bringing up special effects is very funny.I'm just imagining that he's a villain based out of Weta Workshop.
He could be.I will tell you this.Mysterio has no superpowers.He is a normal human.Everything that he does is either skills that he has or things that he has built.
Now, as we get a little bit further, you'll find out that they sometimes stretch the realm of believability of how much a special effects artist can actually do.
And I think the greatest thing about Mysterio is that it is very much looking at movie special effects from a 1960s perspective, because now it would all be done CGI.I was very practical based.That's funny.Exactly.All right.
Let's let's move into the meet cute, Ashley.
Yes, the meet cute is the part of the podcast where we stole a term from romantic comedy writing and we're going to tell you the first time we met a character and how cute it was.
Ashley, where did you first discover Mysterio?
I have no idea.I've never read a Mysterio story.
So your answer is this podcast.
Yeah, I think Mysterio looks stupid.I guess I probably saw a picture of him on the Internet or heard someone talk about him.I don't, I don't know.I know nothing about Mysterio. I mean, I know he exists.I'm sure I've seen him in a cartoon before.
I didn't know his real name.I didn't know there was more than one.Yeah, I'm sorry.I have no idea who this character is.
Mysterious crying a little bit inside.
You know what?He wears a stupid bow on his head, so no one's ever going to know.
That's right.That's why he wears it.
He doesn't want to let me in.I don't care about his feelings.
Poor Quentin. Quinn's a great name, by the way.Where did you first meet Mysterio?
Well, Ashley, as we know, there are many different Spider-Man adjectives out there.Yes.Sometimes he's amazing.Sometimes he's spectacular.
Sometimes he's sensational.
Sometimes he's astonishing.But thank you for stepping on my toes, because I wanted to talk about how he was sensational.
Ashley, ruin my interview.
Let me get a take two.Sometimes he's spectacular.
No, too late.The moment is gone.The first time that Spider-Man was sensational was Sensational Spider-Man number one.Fun fact.Imagine that.Written and sometimes drawn by Dan Jurgens.Now this was when they
Marvel stole in Mr. Dan Jurgens, the illustrious and amazing Dan Jurgens, away from DC, and they gave him Spider-Man and Captain America.And he took over the Spider-Man book, and this was Ben Reilly Spider-Man.
This was when the clone had the blonde-haired Ben Reilly, who was a favorite of mine in the podcast.And this is where he gets the redesigned Spider-Man costume that was co-designed by Dan Jurgens. Mark Bagley.
Which was later inherited by Mayday.
Exactly, which I think is a great Spider-Man costume design.And Mysterio is the villain of Sensational Spider-Man number one.But he also has a smoke head, not a fishbowl.His head, kind of like Dormammu.
He kind of looks like weird Dormammu, where it's a silhouette of a face through smoke.It's a cool design.I like it.And later, the Ultimate Universe steals it.And we'll talk more about that later.Cool. And we're going to move into the first section.
Or the next section.That's the main section.Sorry.
Which is the main meat of the lesson where Professor Jason is going to teach you and me, evidently, everything we need to know about Mysterio.
Well, I'm going to say right now we have stumbled on our magic tricks out the gate and we are not pulling off the prestige today.We're just going to talk about Mysterio.I'm going to say this right now.I like Mysterio.
But I think I like the design of Mysterio more than I like the character of Mysterio because I love the fishbowl design.The Steve Ditko design of Mysterio I think looks awesome.And that's one of the coolest things about the movie.
And we should say right now, there will be no spoilers for Spider-Man National European Far From Home Vacation because... We haven't seen it yet.We haven't seen it yet.Neither one of us have seen it.
I have a hot take on Mysterio's design.Yeah, let's go.I just think it's Ant-Man's design with a cape and a full fishbowl helmet.What?In silhouette, I think he looks a lot like the original Ant-Man with that round helmet.
Well, the original Ant-Man has the antennae and his little jaw mandible thing.
Yeah, they just put a face plate over it and we got Mysterio.
I guess.I think it's a little bit of a stretch, but sure.
I do think it's interesting, though, and I do want to point this out.You really like Mysterio.And there is kind of a whole generation of comic book fans who are big Mysterio fans.Like when he was announced to be the villain of this movie.
And by announced, I mean when somebody took a picture of Jake Gyllenhaal in that costume on a telephoto lens in Manhattan.
A lot of people were excited.And I was surprised at how many people were excited by that.So I guess he connected somehow.
Well, I think he has one of the most original designs.He's a unique Spider-Man villain.He's one of the few Spider-Man villains that's not animal based.And also, Mysterio has been hinted as the villain of a Spider-Man movie for a long, long time now.
So, I think it's the idea that he's finally one of the villains.Cool. Let's go into the History 101.First, some publication history.
Now, Mysterio was created by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko and first appears in The Amazing Spider-Man number 13 in June of 1964, as I mentioned before.It was later retconned that the aliens that Spider-Man fights in Amazing Spider-Man number two.
No, I did not stumble.He fights aliens in that issue.Go read it. Those aliens were actually retconned to have said to have been Mysterio and his minions in disguise.So Amazing Spider-Man 2 is sort of his first appearance?Maybe?
Do with that what you want.
Marvel's really good at having stupid cameos for their characters before they actually have an origin.Mary Jane, another Spider-Man character, has that.Wolverine has that.
I'm going to give you a warning here.Mysterio, of course, is all about misdirection, illusion, and strangeness.And a lot of Mysterio storylines don't make sense.
The story will just end and something will happen to Mysterio, something that will alter his character forever. And then a couple months later, Mysterio will appear again.
And they won't mention the previous storyline at all, or reference it, or do anything like it.
A lot of that's comics, but this happens a lot to Mysterio, since he's a character that will spray smoke at Spider-Man, and Spider-Man will be like, ah, my eyes, where did he go?That happens a lot.
I'm just imagining him being like Joe Bluth, being like, but where did the lighter fluid come from?
OK, so Quentin Beck is the son of Elmore and Henrietta Beck and was born in Riverside, California.Oh boy.Which is a couple hours east of Los Angeles.From a very young age, Quentin had a love for movies and special effects.
And during this period, Quentin became good friends with his cousin, Maguire Beck.Now, Maguire's father, Quentin's uncle, encouraged his nephew's interest giving him his first movie camera.
And with that camera given to him by his Uncle Vinny, Quentin made his own home movies and learned how to create stop motion special effects.Soon, though, his father, thinking that he was wasting his time, smashed his camera.
After high school, Beck attended the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, better known as MIT, where he developed technical know-how that helped him solidify his future movie career.
Quentin went on to become an accomplished special effects expert as well as a stuntman, but Quentin soon grew bored with his Hollywood career and frustrated with the lack of recognition he got from his work.
And in an attempt to get the fame that he craved, Beck tried to become an actor, but turns out he was actually a terrible actor.
Sure, throw them out here.
The uncle is called Maguire Beck?
I'm gonna die thinking that it's just Toby Maguire Beck.Like there is a real missed opportunity.That might be intentional.For funny memes and jokes there.
There are several real world serial killers who wanted to be famous and were bad actors and failed at being famous until they murdered people and are now very famous.And that's all I can think of is these people.Hey, I'm gonna say this.
Mysterio's a murderer. I mean, of course, even all superheroes and supervillains are murderers.Let's just put that out of the way.
But just as someone who likes true crime, it's very interesting that this was probably contrived as like this is a crazy, wild thing that would never happen.And it's actually fairly prevalent.
Yeah.Steve Ditko and Stan Lee were ahead of the time.
So it was around this time that Quentin was very unsatisfied with this movie career that Spider-Man began making headlines as a media sensation.The wall crawler's agent, Maxie Shiffman.
And yes, Spider-Man had an agent because you had to think about his origin.He was a wrestling.He premiered in a wrestling ring.Sure.
And then some of the earlier Spider-Man storylines, he shows up on TV and like sticks to walls and does flips and people at home are like, oh, a person doing flips.
I mean, flips are impressive.I would.
It was very vaudevillian.
Yes.Oh, well said.Marvel can hire us at any time to rewrite this origin where Spider-Man is a social media star dealing with brand deals.
I'll let you have that story.I don't want that at all.That's so funny.So Spider-Man's agent, Maxie Shiffman, hired Quentin Beck to come up with special effects for a future Spider-Man television appearance.
Oh, this is a much less dumb idea than I thought it was going to be.
Although Quinn insisted that Schiffman use fake props for safety, the agent wanted real dangers for his client, Spider-Man.Wow.Beck complied, but warned that he would not take any responsibility if anything wrong happened.
He's like, sign this, sign this waiver.
Sure enough, Spider-Man arrived late to practice the stunts, thanks Peter, and the studio audience was almost injured had it not been for Spider-Man's quick thinking.Wow.
Having at this point grown fed up with his stagnant career, Quentin became inspired when one of his fellow co-workers and special effects artist jokingly suggested that he should use his special effects skill to become a costume super villain and kill Spider-Man.
So somebody says, hey, you know what, I think you should kill the Spider-Man guy.And Quentin was the one crazy that was like, yeah, that's a great idea.
Also, bad friend to suggest murder.If your friends, real or imaginary, are suggesting that you murder someone, get rid of them.
Now, see, in my head, I see this dude as the perfect surfer bro, like special effects guy.
Whoa, man.All right, let me just say this to you, all right?
You're like so good with the smoke, man.
Like Quentin, hey Quentin.
Yeah, I'm Jeff, Jeff with a G, thank you.G-off.G-off, yeah, you can call me G-off.You're so good with like the Smoke Man.
I would call you Smokey the Bear if you were a bear, but you're not, you're Quentin.So, you're so good with the Smoke Man.Yeah.I think you should use that smoke. and you should go kill yourself a Spider-Man.I think you'd be great.
You know, Geoff, as a man- Geoff.Yeah, Geoff.
As a man who I frequently see surrounded by plumes of smoke, I say thank you.
And I tip my hat to you.I'm gonna do just that.
Oh, wow.You're like blowing my mind, bro.That's the weed, man.Rad, rad.I can't wait to see you kill a Spider-Man with smoke. Rad.
I'm trying to pull a Lost reference about the smoke monster, and I can't quite make it up.Jason and I both live in California, so I'm going to say that that dialect was perfect.
Okay, so let's get to the first appearance of Mysterio in Amazing Spider-Man number 13.Okay. The beginning of the issue, there's a Spider-Man that is robbing thieves and crooks and stores.And it's an imposter Spider-Man.
But of course, the world thinks it's the real Spider-Man.And Peter is so worried and bothered by this fact that he can't sleep.And he listens to the radio all night long for bulletins of crime for the reporters to break in with.
The imposter Spider-Man is over here.Eventually, J. Jonah Jameson gets a note from someone that says he has the info. to single-handedly get rid of Spider-Man.
And he finds out that it's Mysterio who appears to J. Jonah Jameson with a fishbowl and all.And he demands that J. Jonah print a notice that Spider-Man should meet him at the top of the Brooklyn Bridge.Now Mysterio,
sells himself as a hero, that he's getting rid of the menace that is Spider-Man, and J. Jonah's like, oh yeah, you're blah blah blah, you're a good hero.So Spider-Man meets Mysterio at the top of the Brooklyn Bridge, and Mysterio kicks his ass.
He surrounds him with smoke, and he overwhelms Peter Parker's spider-sense. Spider-Man dives off the bridge, the Brooklyn Bridge, by the way, and survives somehow.
And the city declares that Mysterio has won, even though they haven't captured Spider-Man.They give Mysterio a parade down Fifth Avenue.Jesus.Yeah, it's that good.And they say, hooray for Mysterio.
And J. Jonah introduces Mysterio to his Daily Bugle staff and says that Mysterio will reveal his identity once the threat of Spider-Man is defeated.Now, Spider-Man meets him at the Daily Bugle as Peter Parker.
He puts a spider tracer on Mysterio and suddenly Spider-Man jumps Mysterio on the street.Mysterio kicks his butt again, like just trounces Peter a second time and reveals his entire origin as Peter on the street at this point.
Basically, you find out that Quentin studied Spider-Man for weeks and figured out all of his abilities, including his spider sense.Now, Ashley, I want to ask you a question here. Do you think this is possible now?
I'm not we have seen plenty of spider-man stories where the villains have overwhelmed Peter Parker spider-sense, huh?
This is saying that a guy Reading the newspaper watching the news footage here in the radio bulletins and studying spider-man for a couple of months Do you think you could figure out that he had some sort of sense that could warn him about the future?
I think you probably could, obviously depending on the type of footage that you got your hands on, because we frequently see the spider sense presented as Peter looking over his shoulder or looking behind him a second before something comes throttling through, like a car that would have smashed into him.
It's premonition.It's seeing the future.
Yeah.Yeah, it's limited.It's like seeing three seconds into the future, which is something that one of the characters has in black. Go listen to our book club on that.Synergy.
But I think the bigger question is, could Mysterio overwhelm the Spider Sense with smoke?Because if we're in agreement that it's a precognitive... It's not just the smoke.
I'm gonna reveal more a little bit later.
Okay, well then nevermind.
All right, that's cool.We're gonna learn the exact reason how, a way he does it.
Because I don't think it can be done just with smoke.
Because it would only work on smoke if it was like an echolocation.It wouldn't work on a psychic ability if it was smoke.
Exactly.In the issue, the two times that he does it, he surrounds Peter in this giant cloud of smoke.
And it's usually like a yellow or a green, right?Like it's bright?In this it's gray.Okay.
Later on it becomes green, like everything about Mysterio is green.
Yeah. Do you think Mysterio can see through the smoke in his helmet?
Yes, because I think he has like a heads up display.Oh, OK, cool.And I think he also like can see heat signatures and stuff like that.Again, Spider-Man's eye lenses don't become super fancy until modern day.
Actually, it's almost in the Spider-Man Homecoming movie where they basically make it an Iron Man suit.
Yeah, yeah.But I mean, if you're in a fishbowl, it's going to be tough to breathe to begin with.
And then you're feeling it with smoke.
How do you see?Well, that's not how his mask works.
You can't see the little hand gestures that Jason just did, but he got very excited.
So back to Amazing Spider-Man number 13.So you find out that Mysterio has, through all the studying, has designed all these movie props to replicate Spider-Man's powers.Sticking the walls, the webbing, everything like that.
The thing I like about this is that this shows that Quentin is very smart. And he's also really good at his job.Like he's probably really good at special effects.If he could recreate all this.
Well, Marvel is the home of the science hero.So I like that we have a science villain to talk about.
And including that his fishbowl is designed exactly like Spider-Man's lenses, that it's opaque to the outside, but clear to him like a two way mirror.Yes.Now he chose the name, which I mean, a one way mirror.
He chose the name Mysterio to instill awe and fear in the hearts of his enemies.And it's not the smoke, but his signature sonar abilities that overwhelm Spider-Man's spider sense.Now, I like that because as we know,
When Spider-Man meets his future villain, Venom, who is this symbiote suit, Venom doesn't work on his Spider-Sense.
Venom's the one villain that Spider-Man cannot predict because when he got that suit on the Beyonders planet in Secret Wars, which we also reviewed on this podcast, the machine designed it to not interfere with Peter Parker's Spider-Sense.
And the only way that Peter Parker was able to defeat Venom was with loud sonic sounds.
Well, I I like the idea that that even though Stanley didn't know about that stuff, I like the idea that it's another like they're tied in.
Yes, but if it is a precognitive psychic ability, sonar wouldn't affect it, as opposed to the symbiote, which is alien goo, and solids and liquids can be affected, but I understand that you like the synergy of the sonar affecting, but the sonar wouldn't affect psychic abilities.
Well, I'm gonna say this, and again, a lot of Mysterio is comics.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.I know I'm trying to justify psychic abilities as well.
You have to just go with the idea that
Now, the sonar could mess with his brain, which wouldn't let him access the psychic abilities.
Well, this is what I was going to say.Yeah, sorry.What I was going to say is that the sonar may make it impossible for him to think, and maybe that's how it doesn't work.All right, Mysterio, you get a pass on this one.Anyways, smart.Yeah.
Smart villain.Smart guy.Well, luckily, Spider-Man had recorded this whole origin on a tape recorder.A tape recorder?Yep.He punches- Jason, what's a tape?
It's a piece of- For our millennials.
It's a cassette tape, it's like, it records noises and it's in a square, and you put it in and it goes chk-chk, and you rewind and it goes zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
And tell us what your first cassette tape was.Mine was the Beatles, The Blue Owl.
Mine was a Shania Twain tape.
I Feel Like a Woman. Oh, okay.Well, I feel like a Mysterio, so let's keep going.Spider-Man punches him, turns the tape into the police, and the issue's over.He wins.
Yeah.All with the power of cassettes.Shortly after this, Mysterio was recruited by Dr. Octopus as a charter member of the Sinister Six, which is a group of Spider-Man's most deadly foes.
The group also included ... Ashley, I would love for you to guess.Every time we do one of these, so we know that it's Dr. Octopus and it's Mysterio.Who are the other four members of the Sinister Six? Incorrect.
I don't know any of the Stupid Citizens 6.
I don't know the other ones are a vulture.Oh Craven the hunter.
Oh Electro oh and Sandman oh Yes, and including mysterio.com now each member wanted the opportunity to kill the wall crawler by themselves and went up against him one at a time which is the opposite of forming a team and Mysterio had a unique solution to beat spider-man smoke
Not smoke, but actually I would love, do you have a guess for what was Mysterio's unique solution to beating Spider-Man?
I think Mysterio built a giant prop anthropomorphic spider that kind of looked like Shelob, but kind of looked like that giant spider robot from Wild Wild West that was supposed to be in Superman, and it fought Spider-Man.
That is incorrect.You got close by building something. Thank you, that was very generous.He built robot duplicates of the X-Men, the five original X-Men.
Is this the first LMH or LMD?
Kinda.Mysterio built robot duplicates of the X-Men that could duplicate their powers and they fought Spider-Man.Now let's talk about this.
There's also a robot human torch.
robot duplicates of anyone in the world, and you still can't beat Spider-Man, then it's time to pack it up, or it's time to go find a different career.
But I'm very concerned about the idea that there is an automaton that is ostensibly in control of a villain with Jean Grey's powers.The fact that if he could duplicate their power sets, that's not only incredibly impressive, but incredibly dangerous.
Also, you'd really only need one.Beast's just got to get a hold of him and squeeze him.
Exactly, exactly.Pop him like a pimple.So, Mysterio was quickly defeated with the rest of the Sinister Six, and his constant defeat at the hands of Spider-Man caused Quentin to develop low self-esteem.Oh boy.Yep.
In desperation, he tried to reconnect with his past by visiting his old childhood home, and all this did was stir up sad memories of his childhood.However, he did reconnect with Betsy Schneider, an old childhood friend.
Down on his luck, of course, Quentin was inspired to become Mysterio again after reading another one of J. Jonah Jameson's editorials about Spider-Man.And he didn't like this editorial.And this editorial kind of made fun of him.
So he decided to get back at Spider-Man and J. Jonah Jameson.And he came up with the ultimate scheme to get back at J. Jenna Jameson.Ashley, I would love your guesses.I'm going to make you guess every Mysterio magic trick.
I don't know if you've... He builds a robot duplicate of Rupert Murdoch and sends him to JJJ's office to beat him up.
Well, you got sending him something correct.No, he tricked the publisher, J. Jenna Jameson, into thinking he was dead and banished to hell. That Jonah was dead.He made Jonah think that he was dead and living in hell.
And he used an old studio to facilitate this illusion.
I have an important question.
I mean, are there seven cycles of hell?Let's not let's.This is not the podcast on hell.OK.
I'd like to request a geek history lesson on hell.
Yeah. Many people don't believe hell exists, and also which hell version?Including the entire Jewish faith, yeah.The DC Comics version of hell, the Sandman version of hell, the Neuron version of hell, the Mephisto version of hell.I don't know.
Just go devil, fire.Let's say the Spawn version of hell.It has more bulge in it.Great.Also a bunch of dope archangels.
Now, with his confidence growing, Mysterio then sent more robots, based on the Sinister Six this time, against Spider-Man, who was now searching for the missing J. Jonas Jameson.
He also revealed himself as Mysterio to Betsy, and Betsy actually knew that he was Mysterio all along.She's like, I knew.Yeah, because women are smart.Yes.
Not only was she impressed with what he had become, but she also admitted that she had had longstanding feelings for him as well.So, Ashley, I want to analyze this.
Do you think she makes him keep the helmet on?
Of course. Let's analyze this, Ashley.An ex-boyfriend comes up to you, reveals, let's say you had a positive breaking out.I want to hear the woman's perspective on this.
He reveals that he's a supervillain, and then he sends an old man to fake hell and beats up Spider-Man.What's your reaction?
I only have one ex who I like.He's kind of a shy, quiet guy, so I'd be pretty impressed that he got out of the house and managed to facilitate all of this, honestly.I don't know.
Just to be honest, if he's sending some old man who owns a newspaper to hell in the current climate, the dude probably deserves to be there.I don't know.I might be impressed.
If he made life-modeled Inquis or the X-Men, I'd be really impressed.
He's making robot duplicates like he's a fiend.Like they're going out of style.Upon returning to his hideout, Mysterio discovered that director Cecil Vergara was now using... Yes, Cecil Vergara.
Do we think this is a takeoff of Cecil B. DeMint?Of course.
Now, Cesar Vergara was now using the studio that he had put J. Jonah in to film his latest movie starring Joe Smith.Worse off, Spider-Man had managed to track down the hideout and free Jada J. Jonah Jameson from the Malbolge hell.
Furious, Mysterio set the studio to explode and escape with Betsy atop a flying sphinx.But Betsy was horrified that Quentin would commit murder unaware that both Spider-Man and Joe Smith had survived.I want a flying sphinx.
Now things had started to fall apart when he learned that Schneider feigned interest in Quentin in order to write a book about the villain Mysterio. Also a thing that's happened in true crime.Yes.
Furious, he used a virtual reality projector to make Times Square look like ancient Egypt.And despite this, Mysterio was eventually defeated thanks to Spider-Man and, don't forget, the actor Joe Smith.
And adding insult to injury, Joe Smith and Betsy Schneider fell in love during the whole affair.And I'm just gonna say that that is not a healthy couple.
Does Mysterio's version of ancient Egypt have En Sabah Nur in it?
If his VR was that good, honestly, I mean, he could sell it right now to anyone trying to develop VR.
I mean, the bigger question is, why didn't he start the Amazon robot revolution 20 years ahead of the time?He's building robots left and right.
I know.It really seems like if he were more focused and business oriented, he could be a billionaire.He could be Tony Stark and not really need to worry about it.
Well, it's the same as Spider-Man.That same argument is made for Peter.Peter could be just as rich as Tony if he tried.
Yes, but with Peter I understand the grounding a little more and I understand like Peter is supposed to represent a more authentic version But Mysterio is a bad guy Yeah, he's a bad guy
Now, Mysterio eventually returned to his false identity of Ludwig Reinhardt.Love it.And Quentin took over the operations of the Restwell Nursing Home on Long Island.This allowed him to bilk the retirees who lived there out of their life savings.
And incidentally, at the same time, Peter Parker's Aunt May had taken up residence at that same nursing home.
Did he just like run a QVC channel or something?
Well, because QVC steals money from old people.
Oh, sure.No, I told you he's literally living in the restaurant and taking their money.So, Aunt May is there.May Parker's residency also attracted the burglar who murdered her husband, Uncle Ben, years earlier.
The burglar, unaware that Reinhardt was actually Mysterio, took Reinhardt hostage.And the burglar had a keen interest in May Parker, but couldn't carry out a scheme because her nephew was constantly visiting. visiting her.
He then forced Ludwig to help him solve his problem, and Beck decided to play along with the burglar's demands until he could determine what this burglar was after.
To this end, Beck managed to make it look like May Parker had suddenly died, and when Peter was informed of May's death, Reinhardt tried to console Peter.However, Peter was so distraught
that he left Beck to deal with all the arrangements of May's death, which is what Beck wanted.Now, I have to ask, why is Mysterio so concerned with torturing senior citizens?
Because they're easy marks and because criminals are cowardly and lazy.
Well, he sent J. Jonah to hell and now he's dealing with May.So. Even though Beck had succeeded in stopping Peter's regular visits, he was still unable to get the burglar to reveal his secret.
Growing tired of pretending to be a helpless prisoner, Beck used his abilities to take control of the situation.He subdued the burglar, took him prisoner, but by this time, Peter Parker had figured out that old Reinhardt was Mysterio.
and he came back to the retirement home to face him.In their initial battle, Mysterio had the upper hand and left the hero to drown in the retirement home's in-ground pool.Wow, vicious.Yes.
At that time, Mysterio had learned that the burglar had rented out the old Uncle Ben May Parker home and deduced that whatever this burglar was working for was at that house.
After failing to get any answers out of the crook, Mysterio decided to go and search the house for himself.
Meanwhile, Spider-Man, unaware of the burglar's involvement, figured out that Mysterio was the individual who had recently trashed his old family home, and going there to search for clues, he faced Mysterio again.
The villain managed to hit the wall crawler with a dart filled with a lethal dose of tranquilizer and left him for dead, however, Spider-Man survived, stopped the burglar, and rescued Aunt May.
And it turned out that the burglar was looking for Dutch Malone's long lost stash that had been hidden in the Parker home years before Ben and May Parker had owned it.
And incidentally, when they finally found it, the money had been eaten by a silverfish insect long, long ago.Silverfish are so gross. Now, the reason why I wanted to bring this up is because this is a retcon for the Uncle Ben murder.Yeah.
The reason why the reason why the crooks broke into the house is because there was money there.And that's the reason why I want to talk about a mysterious part of that.So soon, a mysterious being named Cain murdered Dr. Octopus.
Ashley, do you know who Cain is? Spider-Man clone.Yes, he is actually the first ever Spider-Man clone ever.He's the Jackal's first attempt, the failed attempt, at cloning Peter Parker, and he would go on to become the second Scarlet Spider.
Now Kane had Sloon, or Slane, excuse me, Sloon, had Slane, Doctor Octopus, he also killed Mysteria.What? But in reality, this was actually a robot Mysterio that Beck had controlled remotely.Shut up!Again, Mysterio is obsessed with robots.Oh my god!
Creating a new costume for himself, Mysterio then hashed his next scheme.His head was covered in smoke, his body was covered in green straps, and again, this is when we get to Sensational Spider-Man.This is Sensational Spider-Man.
Mysterio hired the mercenary known as Armada. to steal a new experimental digital imagery transmission chip from Centennial University.Although this attempt was interrupted by the new Spider-Man, Ben Reilly.
Actually, let's explain who Ben Reilly is real quick.
So there is an event in the 90s called the Clone Saga, where there was a clone of Peter Parker.He changed his name to Ben Reilly after Uncle Ben and Aunt May's maiden name.
Riley is Mae's maiden name.
Her birth name.He got blonde hair, he replaced Peter Parker for a while, then he pretend died and didn't really die.
Yes.Because there was a time, the reason why he became Spider-Man is because there was a fake report, you later find out that was because of Norman Osborn, that he was the real Spider-Man and Peter was the clone.Peter Parker was the clone, yeah.
So Ben Riley is Spider-Man at this point.
So Armada was successful, they stole the DIT chip, and now Mysterio had it, and he learned how to use it to make his thoughts appear on television and soon began plotting his next scheme to destroy Spider-Man.
In the guise of Randolph Hines, the owner of the local television station, this station began broadcasting a new television channel called Mystery Vision.Those who watched the programming on that channel quickly became addicted to watching it.
I also want to point out that this is very similar to the plotline of Batman Forever and what the Riddler does.
Soon, Mystery Vision became the most watched television station in the region, and when Spider-Man investigated the channel's sudden popularity, he became almost enthralled by his broadcast.
But he learned that it's hypnotic power is the work of the recently stolen DIT chip.Unfortunately, this was short lived as Spider-Man developed a means of tracking the signal with the DIT tracking device.And he beat up Mysterio and won the day.
So Mysterio vision television was shut down.
Sounds like the plot of a Black Mirror episode.
It's pretty close.It's pretty close.Actually, we've got to hold on just a second.I'm going to run to the bathroom real quick.But I think ding-dong, ding-dong, ding-dong.I think there's a guest at the door.
Ding-dong, ding-dong, ding-dong.
OK, I'll go get it.I'll let them in.You talk to the guest.OK, I'm going to.
Hi.Hello, Dr. Strange here.
Your cape is looking magnificent.
Thank you very much.I love my cape.Floats off my shoulders and just stands there as currently giving you a back massage.
Hello, Ashley.Hi.I am here to learn about your Patreon.
Oh yeah, Patreon.Your Patreon.Well, we're American here.Actually, so are you, ironically.I do not understand your meaning.
Patreon.Your Patreon, yes.Yes.I hear it's a Patreon.com.Slash.
Yes.Can you spell that for us?
J-A-W-I-I-N.That was excellently done.
Yeah.On Patreon, we have a bunch of amazing exclusive content.
Hold on. By the power of Omnipotent Oshtur, I command you to reveal the details of something called Crisis Club?
Yeah!For $8 a month, you get a 12-part video essay on each issue of Crisis on Infinite Earths.Jason and I are doing a mini-documentary on it, where we go through each issue, we point out Easter eggs, we make predictions, And you go check that out.
We've got some cool physical swag that we will send you for being a participant as well.There's also quarterly live streams where we answer your questions.I could go on and on.There's so much cool stuff for Crisis Club.
Great all seen eye of Agamotto.
You must come to my aid and you must tell me why do you need this support on Patreon?
Well, you've seen our setup here.It's pretty small.
I mean, it's not impressive.
I'm going to say that.It's just me, Jason.It looks like a closet.
I mean, there's not a lot.It's a white, white walls.You really need a throw rug.
And I mean, our intern is a cat.
That's not good.One time I had an intern that was a slug.
I'm going to pretend that that was a real word.
Someone please isolate that.
He was filled with dark magic.
That sounds about right.Yes.So we take all of the amazing support that we get on Patreon. And it lets us host this podcast, take the time to research it, replace the microphones, which needs to happen from time to time.
It's really the only thing that allows us to do this because, you know, I don't know if you know this, Stephen, but there was a while where this podcast almost went away.
The evil of Dormammu had come to infect this podcast.
And you and Cleo weren't taking our calls, so we went to Patreon and they helped us out.
I'm going to say this.I am not a rich man myself.
I'm not currently practicing.You live in the village. I am not.I mean, look, the building was bought years ago.I'm just staying there.OK, I'm just saying I do need to know.By the light of Agamotto, I disperse Dumamu's evil.
And I can sense that this week's GHL Extra is talking about the Spider-Man villains that should be in Spider-Man.There's no place like home.Spider-Man Homeless slash MCU Spider-Man number three. Is that correct?What is this GHL Extra?
It is an extra podcast that is really only supposed to be 10 to 15 minutes, but usually goes closer to 25 or 30.Wait, wait, wait.
So not only do you get this podcast, you get more podcasts?
That's right.And we are going to make suggestions.We're going to dive into a discussion about what Spider-Man villain we want to see in Spider-Man Graduation.
You think it will be called Spider-Man Graduation?
I mean, I hope it's call, I don't know.
Well, I think you have a worthy cause and I would go over there and support it and guarantee that this podcast will never end as a bastion for good against the evil Damamo and dark magic all across the world.
Thanks, David.That's really nice of you.
Yeah, I bet Cleo misses you.
There is a white fingered beast eating hot dog vendors all across the Brooklyn Bridge and only my magics can stop it.
I'm just going to walk out.
Yeah, you can see yourself out.
Yeah, sure.Bye.See you later.
Oh hey, well I just passed Steve in Strange.Yeah, yeah, yeah.It's really cool.
His hair looks great today.
It did look great.It always looks good.Alright, let's go back to the show.Soon, Mysterio learned some terrible news.
When he was imprisoned at Ravencroft Prison, it was here that he became sick and was told that after years of being exposed to chemicals, like smoke, that he used and his special effects, that he had developed a brain tumor and lung cancer.Oh boy.
Unfortunately, these illnesses could not be operated on and he was given a year to live.The courts deemed that Beck was no longer a threat and he was released from prison to live out the rest of his very short life.
Furious that he never got the recognition for his work that he always wanted, Mysterio decided to carry out one last grand scheme to leave his mark on the world.
But by this time, he was led to believe that the Spider-Man he had fought in the past, the Spider-Man he fought in the media blitz storyline that we just talked about, was an imposter and not the real Spider-Man.
Oh, he was, he was Ben Reilly.So he decided that he needed to find another worthy target.So he paid Kingpin a large sum of money.Who is Kingpin, Ashley?
He's a giant gangster, runs around New York City, and is now most famous for being a Daredevil villain, even though he's definitely a Spider-Man villain.
Wilson Fisk, yes.So he gave Kingpin a large sum of money to learn everything about Daredevil. and Fisk told Beck everything he knew about Daredevil, including that he was secretly Matt Murdock, the nature of his powers, and his personal life.
So actually, I wanna talk about this.You just brought this up.Let's talk about Spider-Man villains becoming Daredevil villains.Good thing, bad thing?Do we like that they're so interchangeable?
I mean, it makes sense.They are perceived as two of the more street level Marvel characters, even though they're definitely not.They basically operate in different boroughs of New York City.There's a lot of similarities between the two.
I think in the case of Kingpin, it was definitely for the best.I think Kingpin operates much better opposite Daredevil with Mysterio.I haven't read the story, so I can't speak to it, but it seems like a little bit of a stretch to me.
I'm going to say that I like it because I like the idea that because Daredevil was blind, it makes sense why he could be hoodwinked more.I think anyways.So Mysterio studied Daredevil and his religious upbringing and began formulating
a scheme to drive Daredevil mad.Now, everything I'm going to tell you happened in the storyline called Guardian Devil, which was the first story ever published under the Marvel Knights imprint.
This is Kevin Smith's first Marvel comic book work, drawn by Joe Quesada and Jimmy Palmiotti. Now, using his reigning fortune, Mysterio began constructing everything he needed to facilitate this endeavor.
He found a young girl named Gwyneth and had her artificially inseminated in secret.
When she gave birth to her daughter, he used drugs to convince Gwyneth that the child was immaculately conceived and that it was a divine child and that forces sought to harm the child.
And as he planned, Gwyneth took the child to Matt Murdock, telling him about the child's alleged divinity and that she believed he could be trusted since she knew he was daredevil. setting this plan into motion.
Beck then murdered Jonathan Curtin, whom he admired and whose fortune he needed to pull off the rest of the scheme.
Taking Curtin's face back under the guise of the name Nicholas McCabeys, he claimed to be part of a timeless organization named the S.H.I.E.L.D.that was charged with preventing Armageddon from happening.
He then claimed that the child in Murdoch's care was actually the Antichrist and that he needed to turn the child over to him in order to prevent it from bringing about the end of the war.So he put Daredevil in a real good bad religious conundrum.
If I may, earlier you gave him a new name and a new last name.
I think it's probably pronounced Maccabee.You're probably right.Because that's the name of the Jewish ancestors.
I just wanted to say that before anyone else had a chance.
I'm certain I'm mispronouncing everything wrong.
I only know that from a song.I apologize that we're not Jewish.
Quentin Beck also employed Lydia McKenzie, an actress looking for a divorce, to seduce Matt's partner, Foggy Nelson.She then slipped Murdoch a drug that caused him to hallucinate.
And then she also slipped Foggy Nelson a drug that made him think that she was a demon and seemingly shoved her out a window.In reality, actually, Beck made sure she died of a drug overdose and pushed her out the window himself.
So, worse, after posing as a doctor, Quentin convinced Karen Page, Matt's sometimes girlfriend, that she was infected with HIV from her years becoming a drug addict and her career in adult films.
Meanwhile, because of all this stuff, Daredevil sought the assistance of... Who, Ashley, who do you think?He's sitting here, he's looking at a baby.He's being told the baby's divine.
He's being told by this other organization that the baby is the Antichrist.Who would Daredevil go to for help?
Mother Mary?No, Doctor Strange is back here.He came to me, Ashley.I was sitting out in the hallway waiting for this moment to come back.
I'm just trying to wrap my head around how any of this story makes sense.
It makes perfect sense.Because I soon told Matt that actually there was nothing special about the baby, it was just a baby.Yeah, Matt was like, this must be the Antichrist!And I was like, no, no, my blind friend.It's just a baby.
I also think the Antichrist is supposed to come back fully formed and not be a baby.
No, it grows up in our world and 666 and brands everybody and goes on to become the star of a novel series called Left Behind.That's what the Antichrist does.Okay.
Later on, Bullseye showed up.Uh-huh. and Daredevil was unable to stop Bullseye from kidnapping the baby and murdering Karen Page in the process.This is the story where Karen Page dies.
When Daredevil finally tracked down Maccabee's hideout, Mysterio set a series of traps and minions before revealing himself to Daredevil.
Mysterio then detailed his plan in the hopes that his grand deception would finally push Daredevil over the edge so that the hero would kill him.So Mysterio's whole plan was death by Daredevil. He could have just killed himself.
However, Daredevil resisted the urge, realizing that this is exactly what Quentin wanted in the end.With the child now free and his death denied, Mysterio took the cowardly way out and shot himself in the head.
It's just like they made him someone who wants death by cops.Like, OK, OK.
Now, despite his apparent suicide, there actually have been conflicting reports about actually what happened.
And there have been compelling evidence that suggests that Quentin Beck actually died because he was seen in the afterlife in certain stories.On the other hand, Mysterio later claimed in a later storyline that he faked his death and he never died.
Marvel editors, what's going on over there?Cats and dogs living together. And more recently, a mysterious entity has also made claims to support the fact that Mysterio did in fact die and was given a second lease on life by him.
So, did Mysterio actually die?Comics. I don't know.If his suicide is to believed, there is a storyline where Quentin Beck ended up in the lower depths of the afterlife.
There was a deceased villain known only as the Pitiful One, who discovered a strange clay called creme du profundus that could bring the dead back to life for a brief period of time.So he recruited a bunch of dead supervillains.
Craving the Hunter, Miss America, The Anarchist, and Mysterio, who all sought to be arrested.Now, they were trying to cheat death.
And there was a message that was sent out into the real world that sort of was a warning that all these dead supervillains were going to come back to life and they were performing a scheme.
Now, this message came to the earthly plane and it came to one person.One. Ashley, who do you think that person is?
Wong?No.Dr. Strange.That message gave you?Correct!
Dr. Strange!I was, I didn't, I actually didn't even leave the room this time.I just stood in the corner and you didn't see me!
Yes, I pet your intern.By the way, I don't know if you know, your intern is one-sixth Gefulte Beast.
Yes.So watch out.He's fixed though. That does not matter to Gefultelbeast.You need to watch out for that.I'll make a note.So this message came to me, Doctor Strange, in between my dabblings with the dark magic.
So, the Pidifiwan and his minions attacked the United Nations.
Why?We've not talked about the United Nations this entire time.Why are they attacking Spider-Man?
Yes.What?Instead of stopping the attack, Dr. Strange decided to look for deceased allies to help his scheme.Of course.And Dr. Strange enlisted the mutant girl known as Dead Girl, who's a part of one of my favorite teams of all time, Ashley.Ecstatics.
Have you been reading Ecstatics recently?
I've been reading Ecstatics because I think it's amazing.Now, they stopped this entire scheme and it was still important to note that this may not be the real Quentin Beck.Could have been an imposter.We don't really know.
And eventually Mysterio was restored to full life.How?Comics.
Can I ask, in your head canon, do you think he really dies?
No, I think it's a fake Mysterio.I think Mysterio lies and you cannot trust him.
Ah, that's interesting that you should say that.
Cannot trust them.Then Mysterio is connected in a very cool storyline.He's connected to the Ultimate Marvel Universe.Ashley, can you explain very briefly what is the Ultimate Marvel Universe?
So the Ultimate Marvel Universe was an alternate universe that was created in the early aughts, which basically asks what if all of these characters were created now in a post-Xbox generation rather than in the 1960s space boom?
That is correct.And we got some of the best versions of these characters.Yeah, and we got an amazing title called Ultimate Spider-Man, Ultimate X-Men, The Ultimates.That's where the Avengers came from.
Yeah, if you like the Avengers in the movies, you owe a great debt to the Ultimates.
Now, Mysterio somehow created a device that allowed him to access an alternate reality where Spider-Man was still a teenager.How did he build this device?I don't know.Comics.Yeah, comics. He decided to use this new world as his play thing.
And Beck created a number of Android avatars that he could control remotely.Sure he did.More robots.That he controlled remotely from his native reality, which is the Earth-616, the main Marvel Universe.Now, this new universe
is Earth-1610, the Ultimate Universe.So, the Mysterio in the Ultimate Universe is the Mysterio in the regular Marvel Universe.They are one and the same.
The Mysterio in the Ultimate Marvel Universe, of course, looks like the Flame Dormammu head, sort of the media blitz version.Ashley, do you know what this means?That Mysterio is the same villain in both universes? No.
It means that Mysterio can travel and access the multiverse.
Well yeah, you just said that he built a device that let him do that.
Yeah.It also seems very similar to a certain movie that might be coming out very recently.Yes, I was thinking that.This might be some clues.This storyline might be some clues for a future movie.
I'm just saying, if we learn that he's the Mysterio from the Tobey Maguire, Old Man Spider-Man universe, I'd be happy.
Yeah, sure.Following the Ultimatum Crisis, this is an Ultimate Comics storyline where Magneto drowned the world with a giant tidal wave.Don't worry about it, it's not good.
Mysterio took advantage of the situation to take over the New York City underworld.To this end, he ambushed the Ultimate Kingpin and threw the mobster from his office to his death, and then,
Ultimate Mysterio became the new kingpin of the Ultimate Marvel Universe.Now, back in the regular Marvel Universe, the 616, Mysterio was found by 616 Spider-Man when his portal caused a massive beam of energy to expel into the sky.
And during this, Mysterio damaged his intermental device device, causing Peter Parker, the regular Spider-Man, to actually be thrown into the ultimate universe.
This is the storyline where Peter met Miles Morales for the very first time, the storyline called Spider-Man, and this is where he learned that he had died in that other universe.
Now, really quickly, Ashley, let's explain who Miles Morales is for the three people who have not seen a Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse in ultimate in the ultimate universe.
Peter Parker actually died when he was 16.He's replaced by an Afro Latin next adorable child genius named Miles Morales.
Exactly, correct.So we have our normal Peter Parker, goes to this ultimate universe, learns that he died and meets his young replacement.Eventually, the two Spider-Man team up and take down Mysterio.
And the ultimate Nick Fury decides to keep Mysterio a prisoner in the ultimate universe due to Mysterio's knowledge of Peter Parker's secret identity.Because, see, Peter Parker died in that universe, his identity went public.
So Mysterio's like, oh, Peter Parker's Spider-Man.Yeah.
Well, don't worry, because the Ultimate Universe is going to explode in like 10 years.
Exactly.Later on in the Ultimate Universe, so Mysterio lives in the Ultimate Universe for like a year.Wow.
Later in that universe, he is questioned by the Ultimates when Galactus, the 616 Galactus, is accidentally transferred to the Ultimate Universe, and they determine that Galactus originates from Mysterio's world.
Quentin Beck reveals that Galactus's past assaults have been defeated by his world's Reed Richards, allowing the Ultimates to send their Reed Richards to Earth-616 to hack their counterpart's files on Galactus.
But because of Jonathan Hickman's secret wars, Mysterio has mysteriously just returned to the Marvel-616 universe because of reasons, and he has hypnotized Spider-Man a couple more times in recent days, but I still think that's a great place to leave the Mysterio lesson.
Really quickly before we move on, I want to talk to you a little bit about the other Mysterios.After Quentin Beck, there have been other characters.The second Mysterio is a guy named Daniel Beckhart.
He was created by Jerry Conway and Ross Andrew, and he first appeared in Amazing Spider-Man 141, February of 1975.That was the guy that Quentin just gave his stuff to in prison.He was like, go be Mysterio. The third Mysterio is Frances Clum.
Now she was created, excuse me, he, excuse me, was created by Kevin Smith and Terry Dodson, has only appeared in Spider-Man, Black Cat, The Evil That Men Do.This is a series that has never finished.
And fourth Mysterio is a character called Mysterion, and he was created by Christopher Yost and David Lopez, first appeared in Amazing Spider, Avenging Spider-Man number 22 in 2013.
None of them have really done anything special, so that's why they're not worth mentioning.
I'm shocked that there's no Lady Mysterio.
Yes, no Lady Mysterio, sadly.
Hello listeners, Doctor Strange here transmitting from the dark dimension to interrupt your podcast to let you know that there's soon a threat.Yes, a threat from Dormammu.
He is slowly encroaching into your dimension and the only way that you can stop him is by building a website.
I know this sounds strange, but I have considered the runes and I have looked at the signs and I have figured out that the only way to defeat Dormammu and his dark magic is to build your own website using Wix.
Now the good thing about this is I have looked with the time stone and have discovered that over 140 million people use Wix already.
So if you join those 140 million people, you start and publish your free website with hundreds of design features and apps to grow your brand online, including menus and forms and lists and social bars.Oh, I love I love the goods.
Dr. Strange, actually, fun fact, one time on a trip, I loved going to a social bar, but this is probably not the same social bar.
But if you build your website with Wix.com, you can join your magic with me, consult the runestones, and together, we can defeat Umamu with his dark magic! You have to go right now to Wix.com.That's W-I-X.com slash podcast.And you will get 10% off.
That is Wix.com slash podcast.Use this easy to use website builder, this drag and drop builder, and help Dr. Strange defeat Dormammu and his dark magic.Now back to the show. All right, let's go into the Recommended Reading.
Where, if you enjoyed this lesson, I did actually, I learned a lot, you can go over to geekhistorylesson.com slash recommendedreading and Professor Jason will recommend three things that you can pick up if you want to know more about Mysterio.
We have all of our Recommended Reading for all of our 260 some past topics there.You click on the widget, you buy the thingy that you want, a little bit of support comes back our way with no extra cost out of your pocket.
That's right.So Jason.I mean, I'm going to say this. There's no great Mysterio collection.It was tough.It was really, really tough because he's a giant supporting character.His best storyline is Guardian Devil.It's Daredevil, Guardian Devil.
That is the first six issues of the Marvel Knights Daredevil series.I would read it if you're a Daredevil fan, but it's probably the best storyline where Mysterio was ever a villain.
I know I probably did a very bad version of explaining the storyline, but I actually think it's really good. I think it's really good.
The second one is Spider-Man, where he is a villain to both Spider-Mens, and I also would say that you should probably read this if you want to understand Spider-Man Far From Home a little bit better, because I guarantee you this is where they got the idea for a multiverse-traveling Mysterio.
And lastly, there is a great collection that Marvel just put out that's called Spider-Man vs. Mysterio, and it collects a whole bunch of his storylines, including his very first appearance.So I would go read that.
I will say that's one of the best things that the movies and the television do because these characters pop.
We get collections like this, which are probably not interconnected stories, but some of the best stories and some of the most important appearances, whereas previously it would be really hard to have to find some Mysterio stories.
So I tip my hat to film and television for giving us that.Sure.
Look up in the sky!It's a bird!It's a plane!No, it's the Vulture.A Spider-Man villain that is kinda lame and now in a big movie.Let's learn all about him because your Geek History Lesson is now in session.Hello and welcome to Geek History Lesson.
I'm Jason Birdlike Inman.
I'm Ashley Victoria Robinson.
Welcome to your Mind University because you have stumbled onto the podcast where you take one character, construct, or Spider-Man villain from popular culture and teach you everything you need to know about them in about an hour.
And this week, who are we going to be talking about, Mr. Jason?
We are going to be talking about a Spider-Man villain because he is in Spider-Man Homecoming and he's soon to hit theaters, but you all know that in this new Spider-Man movie, he's played by Michael Keaton.
I'm talking about the Vulture, of course, a very classic Spider-Man villain.He showed up very close to Spider-Man's first appearance.Wow.And he's been around forever.
Before we drop into the first section of the podcast, I want to talk about, we talked about them last week, we got some new flair for our Mind University students, because we have some cool one-inch Geek History Lesson pins for purchase now at geekhistorylesson.com.
Go there, you click on the menu, and the menu has a little item that says GHL pins, and you can purchase it directly on Etsy.Go on over there, because we have less than 50 of these right now.
And depending on how they sell, it's only going to depend on whether we ever make any more.We may never make these again.
And Jason has one, and I have one, so you're definitely going to want to get some.
Yeah.So you want to do that, go to GeekHustlerLesson.com to get them.Ashley, describe what they look like.What do these pens look like?
They're a sweet little circle, and it's our cool new logo in there, and it's got the book inside, and it says Geek History Lesson, and it says Edge of Your Mind University.
It's basically everything that you love about the show distilled into pen form, I would say.
Get those over at geekhistorylesson.com before they are gone.Let's enter the Tencent Origin.
which is the first part of the podcast where we are gonna tell you all the basic constructs, creators, and first appearances of this character in case you ever go to a Spider-Man themed cocktail party and someone's like, who's that Vulture guy?
The Vulture, of course, is a Marvel Comics character.His first appearance was in The Amazing Spider-Man number two in May of 1963.He was created by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko.His alter ego is Adrian Toomes, I've always said it's T-O-O-M-E-S.
I've always heard it as tombs.Yes.They could, Tumay, maybe?No.No?Tombs?Okay.
If people say, excuse me, if people say Tumay, then there needs to be an accent.If it's a French, you know, or a Latin name, it should be tombs.
Got it, understood.We've settled that debate right now.His team affiliations have been the Sinister-12 and the Sinister-6.His notable alias has been Falcon.His abilities have been- Falcon.We'll get to it in a little bit.
His abilities are he's a genius electrical engineer, he's an electromagnetic tailored body harness, and he has amazing physical abilities and flight because of this harness.
Okay.So let's go to the Meet Cute!And the Meet Cute is the part of the podcast that we stole from Romantic Comedy Writing where we tell you the first time we met a character and how cute it was.
That's right.Ashley, where did you first meet and cute the vulture?
This is one of those characters where I don't have a clear memory of where I first encountered them.
Not Spider-Man the animated series?
It was probably Spider-Man the Animated Series, but again, I don't have a clear memory, so I'm gonna say it was Spider-Man the Animated Series.Although, the villain I remember most from that is definitely Morbius.So.
Oh, the vampire.Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, nice, nice, nice.But I mean, with my generalities, it's probably that.I just don't think the Vulture's that impressive as far as villains go, or that interesting.So, this lesson I'm sure will prove me wrong.
Maybe the movie will change that too.
I'm actually really looking forward to Michael Keaton's portrayal in the movie.
Birdman being the Vulture, oh yeah.
Batman.Jason, where did you first meet and cute Mr. Toomes?
I met the Vulture one time with a random comic book.I saw him on a cover and I bought this comic book and on the cover, the Vulture was like grabbing Spider-Man and was trying to strangle him, but somehow the Vulture was de-aged.
He had like brown hair and he was all young and he was smiling.Weird.
That's weird, we'll talk a little bit about that storyline, not very much, but mainly for me, the vulture, I also was first introduced to him because there was a vulture that showed up in Spider-Man 2099, and I dig that book, so I like that vulture.
Very cool, very, very cool.All right, let's drop into the history 101.
The main meat of the lesson, the thing that you all showed up for, where Professor Jason is gonna teach you everything you need to know about the vulture.
Now, young Adrian Toomes, or Toomey, as some people may call it, his parents died during his early years, and Adrian was raised by his older brother, Marcus, and he was found to be a very intelligent child by his teachers at school.
Now, his brother, Marcus, became a paraplegic after a motorcycle accident.
Yeah.Now, family is kind of an overarching theme of the vulture, if you were to give an overarching theme.And you'll see a little bit of that come into play a little bit later on in his history.Cool.Now, Marcus is basically ignored from here on out.
Great, so not that important.As an adult, Adrian used his intelligence to become an electrical engineer and an inventor, and it led him to co-found the small firm of Bessman & Toombs, or Toom-ay, as some people might call it.They'd be wrong.
Bessman & Toombs Electronics.His business partner, Gregory Bessman, saw to all the administrative affairs, while Toombs devoted the bulk of his time to his pet project, an electromagnetic harness that would enable its wearer to fly like a bird.
Can I share a thought I just had?Sure.If we wanted to put Marcus in the Spider-Man movie, he should be played by Val Kilmer.That was the thought that I just had.
Greenlight that immediately.All the Batmans become Birdmans.
There you go. One day after creating his flight harness, making it successful, Toomes, or Toomey, as some people might call it, eagerly rushed into Bestman's office to share the happy news.
However, Bestman was not there, and Toomes discovered that Bestman had secretly been embezzling funds from the company. Wow, geez, not a nice guy.No.
Physically confronting Bestman with the harness, Toombs discovered that exposure to his electromagnetic harness granted him superhuman strength.
Still, he wasn't able to intimidate his opponent, and Bestman assumed full control of the company in the wake of his partner's threats, and Toombs soon found himself without legal recourse.On paper, Bestman was the firm's sole proprietor.Ooh.
So Bestman out legally maneuvered Toombs.
Yeah, Toomes got to hire Slippin' Jimmy.
That's right, or Matt Murdock, who exists in this game.Already an old man, Toomes retired himself to a farm in Staten Island on his meager savings.There, he continued to develop the flying harness, realizing that the potential for revenge
was now afforded to him by his groundbreaking invention and newfound strength.
So Tombs created the costume identity of the Vulture, and he ransacked Bestman's office, hoping to uncover incriminating evidence against his piece of crap partner, and then he vandalized and robbed the plant after his search proved unsuccessful.
So he went in there to find some evidence, didn't find it, and was like, you know what, I'm gonna burn our business to the ground. Why not?
He then decided to turn to crime full-time as the Vulture and made himself a silly little costume with a fur collar and green tights.
Now, the funny thing about this is that you and I, at the time of this recording, have not seen Spider-Man Homecoming, but we've seen clips from the movie, and I actually love in the movie clips that most of the time, Michael Keaton is wearing a big leather jacket that has this fur collar around it that kind of invokes that costume.
Yeah, it's also very much like a bomber jacket, which for a flight-based character is a really easy shorthand.
And I think he wears it while he has the whole Vulture-like harness thing while he's flying around.
Now Ashley, I wanna ask you, do you like that, and Vulture definitely fits into this, do you like that most of Spider-Man's villains are animal-based?
I'm of two minds about that because I do understand the animal totem thing I think on a certain level that is a smart idea.What is your other mind thing?I do my other mind is that I think very smart that way.
I think yes But one of them is like in my butt the way dinosaurs have two brains.That's weird.I think the vulture is kind of silly.
But What I like more about Spider-Man's gallery of villains is that a lot of them have suffered from financial hardship and that's what turned them to crime.
So they're really just reflections, in the way that Batman and Superman's villains are, they're reflections on Peter because Peter's suffered a lot.You made the joke during our lesson that his greatest foe was poverty. But he harnessed that for good.
So it's always interesting to see villains who go the other way.And I actually think the idea that he just retired to a farm in Staten Island is really precious.And I'm sad it didn't work out for him.
He's also one of the few, he's very different from some of the other hero supervillains because he's an old man.
I mean, he's in his 60s.Unlike a lot of the supervillains that are young.
You can be evil in your 60s.
It's true.Now, Vulture was on a robbery and burglary spree through New York City when he first encountered Spider-Man.
And Spider-Man realized during this issue for the first time that he could sell photos to J. Jono Jameson after the Daily Bugle offered a reward for a picture of the Vulture.
He was a selfie queen before it was a thing.
That's right.That's very good.Spiderman the selfie queen.
Hashtag Spiderman the selfie queen.
Oh man, that might be a good t-shirt.Oh, there you go.Let us know out there in the world at GHL podcast.Spiderman selfie queen.
There you go.I would buy that.
If we make it, I'll wear it there.How about that?
Okay, so Spider-Man was like, hey, I can get some pictures of the vulture and sell them to J. Jonah Jameson, but Spider-Man was beaten in the first battle due to his occupation with the camera and trying to get a picture.
He was knocked out by the vulture and sealed in a water take with sides too slippery to climb up, but he eventually was able to break free. Vulture then challenged the police, saying that he was going to steal diamonds.
However, he stole the diamonds, then escaped through the sewer, and Spider-Man had created a device that stopped Vulture's harness from working, and activated it during an airborne fight with the Vulture, causing the two to crash on a roof, knocking the Vulture unconscious, and he was then arrested.
Yeah, but like all Silver Age villains, guess what the Vulture's superpower is?
You are correct, Ashley.That is the superpower of every Silver Age villain, breaking out of prison.And the Vulture managed to escape from prison and resumed his crime spree.
Yay, good for the Vulture.
He fought Spider-Man a second time, who found out that his magnetic inverter that he used the first time no longer worked against the Vulture's wings.
And Spider-Man took a serious fall, spraining his arm in the process of trying to get the magnetic inverter to work. Oh no.
So when the Vulture later attacked the Daily Bugle, Peter changed into Spider-Man and defeated his foe by pinning his wings against a wall with webbing.
And after being defeated by Spider-Man a second time, the Vulture became a founding member of the Sinister Six.
He and five other members of Spider-Man's rogue gallery united under the leadership of Dr. Octopus, and the inaugural incarnation of the Sinister Six also included Any guesses, Ashley?Would you like to make a guess?
So we know it's Dr. Octopus, we know it's the vulture.
Do you want me to give you yes or nos?That is incorrect.
He's in later.I was gonna swear.He's in later versions of the dinosaurs.
I'm up to three so I'm doing super well right now um Man, it's suddenly really hard to think of spider-man villains That's the poverty Living in Queen poverty is the seventh member of being able to kiss a girl all right I'll give you the other one.
Oh, no the lizard incorrect oh I'm trying so hard not, Sandman?
Correct.Sandman, Electro.
I'm going through all the movie villains in my head because I can't really think right now.
The other two are not in the movies.
Oh.Now I'm looking at all the, you can tell me.
I don't have action figures of either of these people.
All right, so the Sinister Six inaugural version, of course, is Doctor Octopus, the Vulture, as you said, Electro, and who was the other one?Sandman.And Sandman.Mysterio.
Oh, Kraven, I should have got Kraven.
Yes.Now, Ashley, Spider-Man encounters a lot of supervillain team-ups.He does.He has a lot of groups, you know, Sinister Foes, Sinister Six, Sinister Twelve, whatever.Do you like that Spider-Man, a lot of his villains always team up against him?
That he's just that good?
What I like about that is it does, the Spidey Sense is a really powerful ability that I think gets underplayed.
It almost makes you unstoppable.
Right, that I think gets underplayed a lot, the same way with Daredevil's Radar Sense, and you really have to come up with a reason to incapacitate him and to get rid of the Spidey Senses, which I hate that.I hate it when writers do that.
It's like taking Superman's superpowers away. You know, I like that it says about him that he is that capable, but I think teams should fight teams, and I think having more than three people team up against a single hero is a bit much.
And Spider-Mans are usually like six or more.
Yeah, I didn't know that there was a Sinister Twelve that really seems just like overkill if you're not calling Miles and Gwen and Cindy and nine of your clones to help you out.
If you call them, then it becomes the Sinister 36.
Jesus.That is so much math.
All right, so in this first version of the Sinister Six, the Vulture was the last foe to battle Spider-Man before Doctor Octopus, and he forced Spider-Man to remove his web shooters by threatening to fly away, then squirted oil onto the roof and tried to push Spider-Man off using a wind created by his wings.
But Spider-Man, of course, escaped all this.
The Vulture was caught after Spider-Man swung onto him using a lasso the Vulture had tried to use against him, and he then told Spider-Man where to find the lair of Dr. Octopus, and like the rest of the team, was jailed by the end of the story.
The high-flying felon fell into an all-time low when cellmate in prison, Reneiro Blackie Drago, became fascinated by his exploits as the Vulture.
Drago befriended Tombs and gained his confidence, and then arranged an accident in the prison machine shop.
Tombs suffered injuries that appeared to be fatal, and on his deathbed, the unsuspecting inventor revealed to Drago the secret location of a second vulture suit, empowering him to seek vengeance on Spider-Man.
The lesson that we should all learn from this is to never trust anyone named Drago.If Rocky has taught us anything, it is that. Now, when Toomes, or Toomei, as some people would call it.They'd be wrong.
Heard of Drago's downfall at the hand of Spider-Man, his will to recover surged.And he escaped incarceration, remember his secret superpower.Yes.And returned to his farm to develop a new, improved flight suit.
Tombs later defeated Drago in one-on-one combat, a Vulture vs. Vulture fight, securing his claim to the mantle as the Vulture, and then proceeded to defeat Spider-Man in battle as well. I don't think any of them are all that great.
I'm gonna tell you about a couple of them here.Vulture later came out of retirement one time to claim vengeance on Gregory Bestman, his former research partner.Yeah, that guy.
And then also there was a group called the Volturians, who are a group of criminal youths who stole his designs.Because yeah, street kids are gonna wanna emulate this bald old man.
You know, that's something that a lot of Spider-Man villains inspire gangs.
The goblins.The goblins.There have been lizards in the past.And really, that's not like a thing that happens a lot in D.C.except with the Jokers.I think that's interesting.
And the Jokers only happen because of Batman Beyond.Yes, that's true.Yeah, yeah.Now, during one of his many periods of ill health, he is an old man, tombs or- He's got health insurance?Yep.No, because he steals all the money, that's why.
That's why he's stealing his money, because he has to pay for his medical payments.All right, Tomb struck a friendship with Nathan Lubensky, a man who had become the new love of May Parker's life.Ashley, who is May Parker?
May Parker is Peter Parker's aunt, who took care of him and raised him in the wake of his parents' death.
And she is old and adorable.
and she always tries to feed Peter Parker wheat cakes.Probably.If you read the old Silver Age Spider-Man's, I've made Parker always feed Peter his wheat cakes.
I am anti-young Aunt May, so she's always got to be old.
You're the ultimate Aunt May.
She's young and whip crack and thinks Steve Rogers is hot.
No, I'm anti that.I want Old Aunt May.I don't want young, sexy Aunt May.
Yeah, but I think there's a nice... I like Ultimate Spider-Man's Aunt May because she is, I think, in her early 50s, but she does have gray hair.
But I think modern continuity Aunt May is too old, like she's in her late 80s.
She's gonna blow over anyway.
Yeah, exactly.All right, anyways, so Nathan Lubensky is a friend of May Parker.Sure.
Nathan was unaware of Tomb's true identity and encouraged the injured criminal to take his chances with life and not let handicaps drag him down because Nathan was a paraplegic. reminded Adrian of his brother.
Now, Tombs followed Nathan's advice and attempted to take over his rehab clinic as the Vulture.
A battle with Spider-Man led to Tombs almost killing Nathan, and the shock of almost taking the life of a man who had helped to save his own life distracted Tombs and led to his own capture.
Now the Vulture, I almost called him the Vulcan, the Vulture would seemingly cherish Nathan's influence, but irony would serve him a cruel blow when he was hired by the Kingpin to assassinate a high-ranking casino runner.
During another conflict with Spider-Man as part of Dr. Octopus' new Sinister Six, the Vulture sought to use a hostage as a shield and selected May Parker from the crowd.
Why you always gotta do that to Aunt May?She's a nice old lady.
Well, little did he suspect that Nathan was also there with May and Nathan leaped out of his wheelchair and grabbed Adrian to stop him from grabbing May.
Still not realizing who it was.Adrian didn't realize this was Nathan.
Tombs flew high into the air with Nathan on his back, warning the man to get off.Nathan took one look down at how high they were.They were high above the city and it triggered a fatal heart attack in Nathan.
Nathan fell and tombs fled away, although Spider-Man successfully caught Nathan and Nathan died in May's arms.
I mean, that's nice, but it's really sad.
In fact, to be honest with you, I think this storyline is probably the vulture's best storyline.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.It sounds quite moving, in fact.
It's really good.Now, Toomes was later diagnosed with cancer caused by frequent exposure to the essential materials needed to power his vulture suit, of course.Yeah, yeah, yeah.
In an attempt to be forgiven for all his previous sins, the vulture terrorized the Parker household, but he terrorized it by Constantly knocking on the door and trying to get May Parker to forgive him for indirectly causing Nathan's death.
Oh, that's interesting Yep, and enraged Peter attacked tombs forcing the vulture to capture Peter and take him back to his old lair and
Now after escaping Tombs, Peter switched to Spider-Man and then went right back to his lair and brutally assaulted the Vulture in the assaulting battle.And the Vulture's own power pack malfunctioned and exploded, setting his wings ablaze.
Spider-Man successfully ripped the burning pack off of Tombs and the two crashed, landed in a muddy ditch.And after being arrested, Tombs was returned to the Parker home so that May and Peter could identify their attacker.
May hoped that Tombs' death would be slow and full of suffering. That's what she said to him.Aunt May was just like, I hope you die.And I hope you don't enjoy your wheat cakes.She didn't give him any wheat cakes.
And the next day, though, she went to prison and she apologized to Tombs saying that I didn't mean to give you those cruel remarks.But she also was like, I cannot forgive you.
And any redemption that you can hope to have is left up between you and God. Now, this is, of course, one of the many stories where May somehow gets involved with Peter's shenanigans.
Ashley, I want to ask you, because of course there's a classic storyline where Dr. Octopus almost marries May, and stuff like that.
Do you like Aunt May being part of Spider-Man's storylines and interacting with their villains, or do you want May to strictly be on the sidelines?
You know, that's a tough question for me because I really love Aunt May.I don't know how you can't.
Or as people from the Midwest call her Aunt May.
Yeah, that's wrong.Only Americans say that.
Too May?They would be wrong.I think she's sweet.I think her live action adaptations have been done really well.You know, she's a hard character to not fall in love with, so it's hard to say that you don't want more of her.
You have to love your Aunt May.
I understand why she's always being kidnapped, because she's the nearest and dearest to Peter.Arguably more so than MJ or Gwen.She's the most important lady in his life.
She is the most important lady in his life, yes.
Sometimes I think she gets a little too involved.I've not read this story.It sounds like a really good use of her character.There have been less good uses of her.So I guess I'm on the fence about it.
I actually like it. although I agree with you, sometimes it is overused, but I love the storyline where she almost marries Dr. Octopus.That storyline is so amazing.It's actually really good.
I believe it's Roger Stern, who is a great Spider-Man writer.By the way, I'm also gonna tell you right now, everybody out there, listeners, I could not confirm where this storyline was collected anywhere.
So unfortunately, the Vulture and Nathan storyline, I don't have it in the recommended reading.I could not confirm that it's ever been collected.
So at best, it's probably on the app.
It's probably on ComiXology, maybe it's on the app.
But no printed copies, that's too bad.
I couldn't find it, I just couldn't find it.Or I couldn't find a book that, I found a trade that was like right before it, but not this issue.
Marvel, I know you're listening.
Get on it.Maybe soon in the future?Maybe next year?Hopefully, yeah.I don't know, so there you go.
If people like him in the movie, probably.
Yeah, there you go.So, back to the Vulture.
The Vulture once stumbled across a plot by the Chameleon and the Green Goblin, who was Harry Osborn at the time, to drive Spider-Man insane by having shape-shifting androids impersonate his late mother and father.We're now in the 90s, Ashley.
Yep, sounds like.Really quickly, just in case anybody doesn't know, Ashley, Can you give a brief explanation of who the Green Goblins are?
Oh, sure.I was like, you're gonna ask me what the Parker's names are, and I don't know what they are.
They were also S.H.I.E.L.D.agents.
Yeah, sometimes.So the Green Goblin, Norman Osborn, who was this really rich guy.Yep, businessman.Businessman.Built some armor, did some experiments, went a little crazy, became a villain known as the Green Goblin.
The thing about that is he is the father of Harry Osborn, who is Peter Parker's best friend, but he likes Peter better because Peter's smarter, so then Harry becomes a green goblin later as well.
And you said armor, and although this is the classic comics, it was a chemical concoction.Oh, sorry, yes.The armor is like the movie version.Oh, well, there you go.
But anyways, not better as in the Green Goblin was better, but I like the idea that it's armor and not a chemical thing.
In the movie, too, there is an injectable, but it doesn't mutate your skin the way it does, well, anyway.
That's right, that's right.Anyways, okay, so... Due to Toomes' interference, the androids were destroyed, leading the wall crawler to a brief, nervous breakdown.
This also led to one of the worst periods in Spider-Man's life, because it's the cover where Spider-Man, everybody knows this cover, if you've read any comics at all, Spider-Man is staring directly in a camera, the bottom of his mask is ripped off, and he's like yelling and scowling into camera.
Welcome to the 90s, kids.One of the worst periods in Spider-Man's life. All right, the vulture absorbed the artificial life force from the Mary Parker android, and the effect on the vulture was twofold.
Not only did he become a young man again, but he was instantly cured of the cancer that had been slowly killing him for some time.Now this was the period of time from why I meet Qt.
Yes, now if you remember our Riddler episode, he also got cancer for like a minute and then got rid of it.
Yeah, yeah.Now during this period, he attempted to kill everyone who'd ever known him as an old man in an attempt to get a clean slate for his life.I don't know why that makes sense, but apparently he wanted to do it.Great.
But this plan went wrong when he targeted a Prowler impersonator as the Prowler having once thwarted his attempted takeover of his old company.
Now, Toomes was unconcerned with the fact that the current Prowler was a thief who had just stolen the costume of the original Prowler.The original Prowler, of course, is this guy named Hobby Brown.He sometimes stands in for Spider-Man.
Currently in the Amazing Spider-Man run worldwide, he dresses up as Spider-Man and stands next to Peter Parker so people don't confuse the two.It's cool, actually.I like him. I like the Prowler a lot.
I actually really hope we see the Prowler in a movie soon.So, Tombs nearly gutted the fake Prowler, who again, was not Hobby Brown.
Spider-Man managed to get this fake Prowler to the hospital, and during a later fight with Spider-Man, the vulture was attacked by David Kaelin, a man capable of dissolving anything he touched, who had turned his power on himself in his grief at the death of his brother.
Now, Tombs... got touched by this guy, and subsequently reverted to his old age, presumably due to Kalen's power having negated the youth effect.So he's now an old man again.
And then we get to the Marvel Knights, and there's a story called Down Amongst the Dead Men.This is a Mark Miller story.During the storyline, Aunt May gets kidnapped,
and Spider-Man basically goes crazy trying to track her down, and during one point in the storyline, Peter tracks down Electro and Vulture to a club and fights them, thinking that they helped kidnap Aunt May.
While the Vulture escapes to get his suit, Spider-Man and Electro have a brutal fight, causing a lot of property damage, and Spider-Man managed to defeat Electro, but not without suffering some serious injuries, and he is unmasked and taken by medics to the hospital.
There, a nurse takes his photo while his face is uncovered, and while he's unconscious, and informs the media.
The vulture appears in the hospital, knowing Spider-Man is there, kills a nurse, and attacks an injured Spider-Man, who desperately tries to fight back, but he's too injured to do so.
Two cops hear the sounds of battle, burst into the room, fire at the vulture, but the old villain uses Peter as a shield, and Peter gets the bullets right in his body, getting even more injured.
The Vulture then flies away with Spider-Man and reveals that he was going to use his share of the money that Spider-Man screwed up when he came to the club, that he was going to use that money to save his grandson.
His grandson had discovered that his grandson had a brain tumor.Vulture then rips off the bandages.In my opinion, everybody out there, I think is probably the greatest moment for the Vulture in all of his comic book history, in my opinion.
The Vulture then rips off the bandages covering Peter's face and is disappointed to see a quote-unquote nobody underneath the mask because he was expecting Spider-Man to be someone famous.
To be someone rich and famous.
Yeah, I think this is probably not only one of my favorite Spider-Man stories, but I think the Vulture ad is best.I know you mentioned you liked the previous story, but this is my favorite.
Yes, I think the previous story is better, but I think this moment, I like the story too, as well.So, Vulture then drops Peter to let him fall to his death.
Peter, of course, is rescued by Black Cat at the last second, who then goes on to fight the Vulture.Later on in the same story, though, J. Jonah Jameson, I just want to tell you about this, because it affects the Vulture.
You may be like, wait a minute, this is not talking about the Vulture.It does.
Later in the same story, J. Jonah Jameson has a bounty out for the identity of Spider-Man, because apparently the photo was like something, anyways, he was like, tell me who Spider-Man is.Do you recognize the guy in his photos?
Peter then goes to the Daily Bugle, determined to remove the bounty off his head, and he brings Jonah some old photos that he claims proves that Jonah's son, John, is Spider-Man, and tells him that him and John made a deal a long time ago so that Peter could always get pictures of him.
Jonah believes Peter and gives him half of the million dollars, which was the bounty, and decides not to publish these photos.Not knowing what to do with the money, Peter ends up donating it to the vulture's ill grandson since he felt sorry for him.
Yeah, it's really nice, actually.
And it's a classic Spider-Man moment.And then, of course, in the finale of this story, the vulture fights Spider-Man as part of Norman Osborn's Sinister 12.
Ooh, that's so many sinisters.
Yep.Now, during the superhuman Civil War, Ashley, what is the Marvel Civil War, the first one?
It's where Iron Man and Captain America both lead the wrong sides of a team about whether or not all of the heroes in the Marvel Universe are going to register with the government, and they fight.You've seen the movie.
Now, he was apprehended, the Vulture, along with the Grim Reaper and the Trapster by Captain America and his growing resistance, who chained him together with the Grim Reaper to a pole and broke his nose.
He was found later and taken into SHIELD custody, and that was where he witnessed Spider-Man unmasking himself and giving his identity away from his jail cell.
Mm, that's a great moment in Civil War.
Yep.After Spider-Man went rogue, Toomes, or Toomey, as some would call it.They'd be wrong.Spoke with multiple men and commented on Spider-Man's inherent weakness, that being his unwillingness to use his powers for personal gain.S.H.I.E.L.D.
returned his flying harness and encouraged the Vulture to hunt down Spider-Man, as Spider-Man was now considered an outlaw.Later, the Vulture attacked Spider-Man in a book signing and managed to slash him with a powerful sedative.
And Toomes felt unconscious and sensing something was wrong, Spider-Man rushed this guy to the hospital.
Aw, Spidey, what a good guy.
Toomes woke up a few hours later, where a doctor revealed that he had suffered a stroke, and many of his muscles on the left side of his body had been paralyzed, and when the doctor left, Spider-Man snuck in, and Toomes asked him to kill himself because he was weak.
Aw.You know, he couldn't do so.
Now, when Spider-Man refused to do so, Toomes told Spider-Man that he was also weak and had always been.And after making some remarks about his Uncle Ben, Spider-Man took a pillow and began suffocating Adrian Toomes.
Toomes fought back, and Spider-Man removed the pillow, commenting that, for somebody who's begging to die, you fight for life pretty hard.Now, remember I said we just talked about one of the best moments in Vultures?
That is one of the weakest moments in my entire opinion, because I don't think Peter Parker would ever do that.Do you agree?
I don't think he would either, yeah, I completely agree. It seems like a bad moment for Vulture and for Spider-Man.
Agreed, and that's why I think it's the weakest Vulture moment in all of comics history.
Following the Spider Island storyline, Vulture returns as the leader of an unnamed gang of penthouse thieves and murderers who have Vulture-like wings, but with a new gothic style.
The members of his gang have the same name of an angel that matches with the black angel they look like.However, it is swiftly revealed that the gang's technology is actually controlled by the Vulture,
who designed their wings so that he could shut them all down with a simple signal if they ever decided to act against them.
Having used his new magnetically sensitive webbing to catch the gang and deactivate their wings, Spider-Man defeats Tombs despite his new use of gravity manipulating technology, which seemingly gives him superhuman strength.
Ashley, also real quick, we're gonna start moving into the Superior Spider-Man section of Spider-Man.Can you give just a brief couple sentences of like, who is the Superior Spider-Man?What's that all about?
It's a great storyline, yeah.It's basically Doc Ock has control of Peter Parker's body and he's like, I'm gonna pretend to be Spider-Man.
And he basically, he's a good guy for a while.He is a good guy for a while.
Now, Carly Cooper, who's a cop and Spider-Man supporting character, later works with a superior Spider-Man, who is Otto, to investigate a series of crimes committed by Vulture's gang.
Spider-Man confronts Vulture and attempts to bribe him into giving up crime by offering him a small fortune from Octavius' hidden bank accounts from when he was a supervillain.
Vulture does not believe a word of it and has his small people henchmen attack spider-man spider-man actually knocks out one of the small people henchmen who turned out to be a young boy and Realizing that the vulture has been using children
this entire time, and remembering Otto's own abusive childhood, Spider-Man attacks Vulture in a rage.
And after a brief mid-air struggle, Spider-Man blinds the Vulture with a searchlight, causing him to crash onto a roof, and Carly arrives and finds Vulture broken and almost near death by being beaten by Spider-Man.
Yeah, he seems like he's always about to die.
Yup.The Vulture eventually has another encounter with the Superior Spider-Man, seeking revenge for his recent defeats, but is defeated again by the Superior Spider-Man.
And the Vulture, Chameleon, Electro, Sandman, and Mysterio are later seen as part of the team led by Spider-Man called the Superior Six, which is forced by Otto via mind control to perform heroic and very dangerous deeds as acts of redemption.
When they are not being controlled, they are kept in containment cells, and they eventually break free of Spider-Man's control and attempt to exact revenge on the wall crawler, nearly destroying New York in the process.
That actually is one of my favorite storylines of Superior Spider-Man, that he makes the Superior Six.I think it's really cool.
Toomes, or Toomey, as some people would call that, later developed a modified version of his electromagnetic wing harness dubbed the Falcon Suit, with a reinforced helmet and lightweight, razor-sharp, nano-woven wings, say that five times sharp, which responded to his mental commands.
He then assumed the moniker of the Falcon, believing it to be vacant, because Sam Wilson's Captain America at this time,
I was like, I bet Sam had something to say about that.
And robbed the location in the East Village.Spider-Man attempted to thwart the theft, but however, they were both immobilized by the paste gun of the new trapster who took the Falcon's loot for herself.
Now, this is basically the end of the main universe, Vulcan, but I wanna really quickly tell you- Vulture.Vulture, excuse me, I said Falcon, see, I'm getting confused.
But I wanna tell you about the ultimate universe, Vulture, because he has some kinda cool stuff that he plays into. All right, let's do it.Ashley, what is the Ultimate Universe, very briefly?
The Ultimate Universe basically asks the question, what if all of the Marvel characters you know and love were created in 2000?And it's everything that you love about the movies comes from the Ultimate Universe.
Yes, yeah, and it's basically a separate continuity from the normal continuity.So in the Ultimate Marvel Universe, Dr. Adrian Toomes is an employee of Bolivar Trask, the inventor of the Sentinels.They were about to extract the Venom suit,
from Eddie Brock Jr.when the Beatle attacks the facility with knockout gas.The ultimate version of the Vulture is actually Blackie Drago.Remember him?
And actually, fun fact, he resembles Jason Statham as per Brian Michael Bendis' instructions to artist Mark Bagley. Now, Blackie Drago is a disgruntled former S.H.I.E.L.D.agent that had been hired to kill Donald Roxxon.
Drago received his equipment from the Tinkerer, and he was defeated by Spider-Man and taken into S.H.I.E.L.D.custody and imprisoned in the Triskelion, which is the headquarters of the Ultimates.
When the Green Goblin Norman Osborn breaks out, several other villains, including Drago, escape in the chaos. And basically he later gets apprehended by Spider-Woman and the Human Torch after a robbery.
And along with the rest of the Ultimate Six, Vulture plays a role in the death of Spider-Man storyline.So there you go.
Another fun fact here, really quickly, before we're gonna talk a little bit about the movies, the Vulture was actually going to be the villain of Sam Raimi's never filmed Spider-Man 4.
Interesting.Yeah, and in December 2009, John Malkovich was in final negotiations to play the Vulture in Spider-Man 4.
He'd have been really good, but the film was canceled in January of 2010.Bummer. Yes.Now, Michael Keaton, of course, as I said before, is confirmed to be playing Adrian Toomes, or Toomey, as some may say.They'd be wrong.
In the film, Adrian Toomes runs a New York salvaging company and wears a suit of mechanical wings made from Chitauri technology.Why is that important, Ashley?
Because the Chitauri are the alien race that destroyed New York in the first Avengers movie.
That is correct.And that is it for The Vulture.But before we hop into some recommended reading, I want to tell you about a new podcast that Ashley and I are making.It's called Jason and Ashley's Excellent Adventures.We get more personal.
We talk about stories of our life, what's going on in our lives.That's a podcast you can only hear over at patreon.com slash Jonathan because
All your support over there helps us with this web hosting cost, and everything like that, and the research cost of creating this free entertainment podcast for you.
So, if you wanna head over to patreon.com slash Jonathan, even $1 a month really makes a difference.It really does.But if you wanna donate to some higher tiers, you get some stuff for you.Jason and Ashley's Excellent Adventures.
And also, we just did a live stream, a movie live stream, where we watched the first three episodes of Just Sleep.
Yeah, so there's all kinds of cool stuff you can get over there.So now at patreon.com slash Jonathan, you get two exclusive podcasts that nobody else gets to hear.
And thank you for those who've donated and to everyone who will donate in the future.
That's right, let's go to recommended reading now, Ashley.
Where Professor Jason is gonna recommend some stuff for you to read if you are really taking with the vulture.What have you got?
Yes, and you can find all our entire list of recommended reading over at GeekHunterLesson.com slash recommended reading.The first off, of course, a story we talked about, Spider-Man The Ultimate Collection by Mark Miller.
This collects the entire storyline of Down Amongst the Dead Men, the vultures throughout our part, has the greatest moment of the vulture ever. It's really good, yeah.Terry Dodson draws it, I believe.I can't remember.
Then my next pick is The Amazing Spider-Man Omnibus Volume 1.This is a giant omnibus that collects the first 20 issues of The Amazing Spider-Man because Vulture appears at issue number two.He's Spider-Man's first supervillain.So you can go read that.
And then also, I'm thinking a pick that I didn't talk about at all, and that is Spider-Man Noir.
Now, I said that because this is a Spider-Man storyline that's set in a universe that resembles the gritty, hard-boiled detective films from the 1930s, and the vulture in Spider-Man Noir is a bloodthirsty cannibal.
Tombs kills and eats Peter's Uncle Ben in this book. So it kinda leads Peter to have an incentive, like Vulture is the main villain of Noir.
So if you want another interesting Vulture story, because again, I looked for that one storyline I talked about with his friend Nathan, it hasn't been collected yet, so that's why I suggested Spider-Man Noir.
This is a good one, yeah, for sure.
All right, so let's go into our discussion.
Where we're gonna talk more about the topics.Ashley, overall, do you like the Vulture as a Spider-Man villain?
I think the Vulture's an okay Spider-Man villain.I think that he's maybe not necessarily on the surface as interesting as some of the other ones.They don't have the kind of history that he has with some of his other villains.
The goblins in particular come to mind.And a really great writer can make a really great story.You brought up three or four of them that are really, their standout in the Spider-Man canon is a really good story.
He needs more great stories, and I think there's something interesting to dive into the fact that he is the first supervillain of Spider-Man.
Yes, and I think that exploring his age is also something that makes him unique that you could mine.
I think they specifically did that because I think it was the idea of Stan Lee being like, well, I got this young kid, and he needs to fight an old man to stick it to the man Excelsior.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.I don't know, it's interesting, but I think it also makes him difficult at the same time.
First, we attack Spider-Man's heart.Then we attack his podcast.
Because the Geek History Lesson on Best Spider-Man Villains is now in session.Hello and welcome to Geek History Lesson.I am Jason, animal-themed supervillain, Inman.
I'm Ashley Victoria Robinson.
Welcome to your mind university because you have stumbled onto the podcast where we take one character, construct, or villain from popular culture and teach you everything you need to know about them in about an hour, except this week's It's a List episode.
That's right, and this week was also an episode that we had made in anticipation of a movie that got delayed.
Spider-verse to across the multiverse Boogaloo or whatever the name of it's across the multiverse or right across the universe now I don't know what this I have no idea.I'm just calling it We were we we look look listen.
I'm gonna be flat-out honest with you We were gonna do a bunch of spider-man episodes leaning up to that movie kind of an anticipation and Anticipation of that movie excuse me into set patient.That's right because we were excited about that movie.
And then just like has been happening, you know, since the pandemic has started, they delayed the movie on us.But I said to hell with it.We're doing the list anyway.Yeah.So, you know, Spider-Man has a lot of interesting villains.
He has animal themed villains, power over element villains, horror themed villains, crime lords, inventors.
And before we drop into our list, Ashley, I wanted to ask you, do you know who the first Spider-Man villain that ever appeared in the Amazing Spider-Man comic book series was?
Do you have a guess on who you think Spider-Man's first villain was in his first solo series?
No, that's is not poverty.It is the chameleon Dmitri Anatoly Nikirovich Smerdyukov.I apologize to all the Russian listeners.He appeared in March 1963.Stanley and Steve Dicko created him.
He's the master of disguise Spider-Man villain, but he is technically the first villain of the Amazing Spider-Man series.
I did not know that.It's smart, right?It's a lizard versus an insect.
A lizard?Oh, because he can change his, oh, the chameleon.Just the names.Sorry, my head conflated to the lizard, the Spider-Man villain, and I was very confused.
He's a reptile versus, he's also not an insect.I know he's an arachnid. Classic animal pairing.
Yes.Now, before we get into our list as well, we also had rules for this list that we decided to leave off Dr. Octopus and Green Goblin.
Well, let's have this discussion right now because when Ashley and I were planning this list out, we said, Well, the number one spot is definitely gonna be a fight between Dr. Octopus and the Green Goblin.
Now, the Green Goblin, of course, is Norman Osborn.Dr. Octopus, of course, is the man with the mechanical arms you've seen in all the Spider-Man movies.Ashley, why would these two be tied for the number one?
In your opinion? It's kind of like, who do you like better?It tells a little bit about your preferences and your taste, which one you actually think is the best villain.
But in the same way that when we did our best Batman villains, we sort of put the Joker off to the side. this is what we felt was the appropriate thing to do for a Spider-Man villain.
And the reason why is because they both show different aspects of Peter's character, right?Otto Octavius is Peter with a less moral compass, successful scientist, driven by his work, incredibly intelligent, ambitious, on and on and on and on.
Norman Osborn is the father and the power that Peter never had.
Well, I always yeah Norman is the father that he never had and Otto is basically what if Peter Parker was evil?
Yeah had less morals like I mean for me like Doc Ock is definitely on the spot because Doc Ock's the man who forms the sinister six He has taken the planet entirely hostage by himself
But then also, it's hard to be Dr. Octopus as the greatest Spider-Man villain because he literally switched bodies with Peter Parker for a year and became the superior Spider-Man.I was gonna say he has been Spider-Man.
But then you also have Green Goblin, who is the Joker to Peter's Batman.Yeah.He has invested more cash money into the downfall of Peter Parker, probably than the entire economy of the European Union.
There's a reason why the first two Spider-Man movies featured these two characters.
And then when we did Spider-Man No Way Home, we brought both these characters back.And also Norman Osborn has two trump cards as well.
He's responsible for the death of Peter's first love, Gwen Stacy, the very classic throwing Gwen Stacy up the side of the bridge.And also Norman Osborn is responsible for the clones, the famous Spider-Man clone saga.That was Norman Osborn.
Also the father of Peter's best friend.
Yeah, but does that make him a villain?How does that make him a villain?
No, I just mean like he's deeply tied into Peter's life.
Yeah, Harry Osborn was such a bad best friend that Norman Osborn becomes more of a supervillain because his DNA contributed to this garbage other person.Kinda.So that is why we are, in terms of our list, we are making them the automatic winners.
Should we tell the listeners which one we would put number one of the two?
Sure, go ahead.To me, there are tied for number ones.
Oh, it's just a preference.
Who would you put number one?
If we were allowed to put them on the list, I definitely would put Doc Ock as number one.
Doc Ock would be my number one as well.I think we've talked about that before. Green Goblin and Dr. Octopus are the automatic winners of this list.We are going to decide the next five of them, so to speak, but we still will be doing it five to one.
Instead of three through seven.
Yeah.But please, everyone out there, share your lists online with us on social media.Actually, where would be the best places for them to do so?
You can do that at facebook.com slash geekhistorylesson, on Instagram at geekhistorylesson, or on Twitter at ghlpodcast.
And before we get to our number five, we do want to tell you that if you are looking for more Spider-Verse or Marvel content, then you want to head over to Patreon.com slash draw on this J.W.I.I.N.
where this week's episode of Geek and Schloss and Extra, a bonus podcast over there, will be about the most heinous acts that the Green Goblin Norman Osborn has ever committed.
Also, we're gearing up for the next part of Marvel Club, part three, which might be spider-related.And there's another art print coming.And also don't forget about our Justice League review podcast and our podcast discord.
All of that can be found over at patreon.com slash Jawin for supporting us.Come join us.Thanks to everyone that supports us over there.We really, really appreciate it.Now to the list.To the spider list.
Ashley, these are our favorites, not objective bests. We've already determined that GreenGoblin.goc are number ones, but we're gonna have a new number one.It's fine.
So if we don't worry about it, it's fine.It makes sense, okay?
Who is, in your opinion, the fifth best Spider-Man villain?
So this is a character that your mileage may vary on how villainous he actually is or what type of a villain he is.Flash Thompson.Yes, Flash Thompson and the American public school system's inability to address systemic bullying.
Is number five. My number four will be the Child Welfare Commission.
Number two is that diner that never gives Peter enough fries.
Number three is whoever Joel McHale played in Spider-Man 2.
Number one is the rooftop of the Chrysler building.Jesus, why won't they ever clean that place?Peter keeps slipping off of it.
Number one is the executives who shoehorned him into that Captain America movie.So my number five is J. Jonah Jameson.
I considered adding J. Jonah Jameson, but why is he your number five?
So again, when I at first blush, when you think of Spider-Man villain J. Jonah Jameson probably doesn't necessarily jump to mind.If we were doing Spider-Man supporting characters,
citizens of Spider-Man's New York, like I probably would have put J. Jonah Jameson on there as well because he is such an important part of Peter's villains.But when you look at it at face value, if you look at it on paper, he is an antagonist.
He's he is the most effective bully. in all of the Marvel Comics universe, New York City.
His entire purpose is to be a troll who drags down an actual child most of the time through lies and slander and the vanity press that is his corporate publishing entity that he works at the Daily Bugle.And that's incredibly evil.
And it is evil in the way that only a modern American business person could be evil. And J. Jonah Jameson also blow for blow has been a villain as Spider-Man antagonist for more stories and more across more mediums than any other Spider-Man villain.
Oh, yeah, because he doesn't get into fistfights with Peter Parker.So for that reason alone, but also because like I low key love J. Jonah Jameson, I wanted to put him at my number five on this list.
I'm going to have more traditional villains moving forward.But I also thought the discussion around like putting him in this category was kind of interesting and worthy of having on the podcast.
What are your thoughts on J. Jonah sort of being an ally or slash friend of Peter now in the modern comics continuity?I like he knows Peter Parker is Spider-Man.
Yes.I like that once he knows it's Peter, he can change his tune because it shows you that he's not evil in his heart of hearts and that he loves Peter and that he loves Peter.I also like it when J. Jonah Jameson is a romantic interest for Aunt May.
I think that's really interesting.
That's right, I'm so sorry.And so he kind of becomes Peter's weird, like, brother-uncle-in-law kind of thing.I think that's really interesting.
But I've also liked the stories where he becomes a mentor to Peter Parker, even though they have this contentious part of their relationship that J. Jonah Jameson doesn't know about.So yeah, the more JJJ, honestly, the better for me.
All right, nice, good choice.Thank you.So who's in your number five position?
My number five is a villain that I'm not a huge fan of, but I kinda considered, I was like, I think this person has to be on the list.That's fine.
So they're gonna be on the list, they're gonna be at the bottom for me, but you can not doubt the power of this villain having now appeared in three movies.And that is,
Venom Venom yes, or Venom as I probably I guarantee you I called him Venom when I was a kid So of course you know this is spider-man's rejected alien black costume that bonded with disgrace reporter Eddie Brock And I am focusing on the Eddie Brock version of venom even though there have been other venoms When he was first introduced venom was basically the evil-looking spider-man spider-man in a black costume right and
But they did a lot of stuff when Venom was initially introduced.And I like Venom in the way the characters originally perceived was that he was this guy that was coming after Spider-Man to torture him.
And because he had been bonded, the symbiote had been bonded with Peter.Peter's spider sense didn't work.So this villain was like more deadly than any of other Spider-Man's villains.
It's actually a really intelligent way to have your Venom and eat him too, and have him present a new type of threat to Spider-Man.
Yes, and again, it really plays on that dark mirror image, where it's this idea of like, oh, it's a piece of Peter's soul, so no matter what, Peter cannot predict what this guy is gonna do.
And also, Eddie Brock has an obsession with the revenge on Peter Parker specifically, not Spider-Man.So he attacked Mary Jane a lot, he attacked Peter a lot, and then eventually found out that he was also Spider-Man.
Now I understand the idea that the character became so popular and the reason why I think the character became so popular is because the design is amazing.It's a really great design.It's very iconic.
I understand why Venom became an anti-hero, but like Venom as a villain is where I like Venom.I would truly love to see Venom as the antagonist of a good Spider-Man movie.
And to be honest with you, if you want to read a really awesome modern Venom story, read the Ultimate Spider-Man arc about Venom.It is really good.It's Venom just being a bad guy.
You'll also understand a little bit more about where the Spider-Man 3 version of Venom comes from.
Yeah, you'll see a little bit.Yeah, they were definitely inspired by because that had happened by that point in 2008.But that's why I like Venom as this like scary black sort of Spider-Man demon.That's sort of that's that's what I like about Venom.
I don't like the Venoms alien.I don't like that is a shape shifter.I just like this idea of like, oh, there's evil Spider-Man and they are very sadistic.
And that's why I like the big teeth and the gross tongue and that that's why that works for me because it's like oh It's spider-man push to the limit And I think every time you take that away from there like and the more antihero you make venom to me the less Interested in venom.
I am I want venom as just this Unstoppable black goo who's mad that Peter Parker tried to throw him in the trash one day, which is what happened basically That's how I feel about Harley Quinn.But Venom has affected so much of Spider-Man.
There is a pre-Venom Spider-Man, there is a post-Venom Spider-Man.And I think this list would be incomplete, in my opinion, without Venom.So that's why Venom is my number five.
I'd say good choice, Venom is my number four.
Oh, okay, okay, why?You are not a big Venom fan, so why did Venom make it on your list too?
I'm not.Over J. Jonah.I'm not, well, because he's more traditionally a villain than J. Jonah Jameson.
So when we took Doc Ock and Green Goblin off this list, I was like, yeah, man, all the other Spider-Man villains are like not on the same tier as those two dudes.
And I, so I tried to focus this around characters that really embodied what I think of when I imagine a Spider-Man villain and Venom is definitely in that discussion.Venom does look cool.Like I was introduced to Venom in the animated series.
I think that's the same for a lot of people who are about the same age as me.So for a long time before I really understood like how long comic books had been around, I assumed Venom was always the number one Spider-Man villain.
I didn't realize that Venom was like, I didn't know what 90s did to change comics or what kind of ethos Venom came out of.
Can I make a quick note about the Spider-Man the animated series?Yeah.I like that cartoon, the 90s animated series.The one thing I don't like about what they do with Venom is I don't like that they gave Venom eyeballs.
Yeah, I understand why they did it, but they give him people and it does not look good.It makes him look It makes him look unwell.
It makes him look huggable and I don't like Also because venom is Genuinely scary when he's drawn by the right artist like Todd McFarlane the person who basically helped co-create it or if you make the mistake of having your safe search off when you're looking for a picture of venom to share on your social media venom is a very creepy
creepy visual.There's also a direct line between Venom and the Miles Morales spider suit, like the look of Venom and the look inspired.
Yeah.The look of the black suit echoes across popular culture.And whether or not I I particularly care for him, I thought it would have been remiss to not at least have the discussion about Venom.
And the only thing that I hate more than venomous carnage.So courage was definitely not making it on my personal list.
I thought the grateful, the reasonable thing to do was to give Venom his due, because when, as you say, when Venom is a villain, he's kind of awesome.
And like Harley Quinn, the more you try to rehab him consistently versus a one-off story or a thought experiment.
The more watered down he becomes.
The less interesting he becomes.I don't want to empathize with Venom.I want to be gratified when Spider-Man crushes him with a car.
So, but it's honestly, it's mostly because he looks really cool.
A lot of it is the design.A lot of it is the design.
Hats off to Todd McFarlane for creating one of the coolest looking Spider-Man villains by coloring him black.
Well, he it was based off of the black spider-man suit from seagulls But from for like twisting that design into something just something really creepy.
Yeah, so he's my number four Yeah, who's your number four best spider-man villain my number four?
You're gonna get into you're gonna start noticing recurring theme because I love Steve Yekho, I love this Steve Ditko work, so I have a lot of fondness for
the Steve Ditko villains, including one of the most badly dressed Steve Ditko Spider-Man villains, who can be described in a simple song.Mr. Sandman, bring me a dream.Do you know the next line?
Something about... Make him the cutest that I've ever seen.
Oh, I was gonna say something.And he did not.I was gonna say something about a washing machine.But anyways, you know, Flint Marko is one of Spider-Man's earliest and most persistent foes.Appeared very early on in The Amazing Spider-Man.
He basically was a person who got turned and mutated into a being of pure sand.You know, he's super powerful. But he has the unfortunate choices of wearing khakis with a striped green T-shirt.And he also has the Norman Osborne hair.
And if you know what I'm talking about, read the comics.Norma is like this weird frumpy fro that's orange with lots of weird black stripes and dots in it.
To me, and this might be me making an assumption as someone who was raised on the East Coast and knows New York, I always assumed it's kind of that tight Jewish style haircut that it's supposed to evoke was always what I thought of.
Yeah, it's a hard one to draw.Yeah, it's a hard one to draw.And it's I also think I, you know, I know lots of people are like, How have they never duplicated that in the movies?You simply can't use nobody really knows.Yeah.
Anyways, the interesting thing about Sandman is that Sandman is basically like Spider-Man fighting a sandstorm slash hurricane.
Spider-man is so outmatched when it comes to Sandman But I also like the idea and part of the reason again is that I think Sandman has an interesting look but also Sandman is not particularly like one of these supervillains He is a guy that just fell into a you know particle accelerator experiment just kind of just kind of like in spider-man 3 and he sort of like oh, I'm just gonna rob some stuff and
And eventually, he would reform.Sandman also is this Fantastic Four villain.And if you don't know, Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four have a deep connection.
He was part of the Frightful Four, which is a team of villains that was created to specifically fight the Fantastic Four.But Sandman also, later when he reformed, he became an Avenger.
So, OK, yes, he is a he was a part time member of the Avengers in the giant roster like during the 90s.Now he is usually he's gone back to full being just the evil MOOC going for, you know, robberies and stuff like that.
His goals are basically financial gain.But it's so interesting to me because most of Spider-Man's villains have a costume.And again, this is just a guy in a T-shirt and jeans. that has sand for arms.He has giant sand arm.
But in every version, even the movie, they gave him that weird green striped T-shirt that I have never seen.I have never seen this green striped T-shirt anywhere in real life.
I'm going to bet Ditko owned that shirt.
I think that was the closest they could get, because I think they tried to give the Sandman a super villain costume, and then decided that everything they did was just too goofy looking.
What are you gonna do, put him in a nightcap?
Well, I mean, the obvious thing is just to make him a sand creature, but if you do that, then he's not interesting.
I think they liked the idea of seeing a mook type guy, a henchman type guy, with weird sand powers, shooting sand at Spider-Man, just so Spider-Man can go,
I also think the name Flint Marco is just really cool.
Yeah.Well, there's another version of the Sandman also called William Baker, but Flint Marco is my guy.That's the one I'm going with.He's an Avenger.He's got cool pants.He's got cool shirts.That's why Sandman is my number four.
Is Sandman your number three?Who's your number three, Ashley?
No, my number three is another scientist.
There's a lot of those in Spider-Man.
A lot of scientists.I'm something of a scientist myself, Peter.
I love that meme and every time people use it.He is another scientist.He is also, I would say popularized by the animated series and somebody that I used to chase my brother around my grandma's house pretending to be, and that is Michael Morbius.
You you pretended to be Morbius.
I did.When my brother wanted to play Spider-Man, I always wanted to be Morbius.
I didn't realize this podcast was going to be entering Morbin time.
I also like vampires.He's he's so generically a vampire, like not a vampire in a really interesting way.
It's a very comic book vampire.
And then the more you delve in, the more they try to define what their version of a vampire was, the worse it gets.The like, is it a disease?Who is vampire in the Marvel universe?It's bad.
So you just wash it all over by saying he just has generic vampire powers.
Yeah, he gave him, he's like a genetic experiment vampire, right?He gave himself, he made himself, he's not a true Dracula vampire.He's like, he's an energy, he's Morbius, the living vampire.
Somehow the vaguely Judeo-Christian overtones still push him away, which comes from the origin where they're demons.And you know, like Morbius is a mess as a concept, but I think like Venom,
the vision and the vibes of this character somehow really scan with Spider-Man.
And in a lot of the fights where they're fighting at nighttime in the rain on rooftops in New York City are some of the most fun visuals that you can get out of a Spider-Man slash villain fight.
Morbius with his weird soul patch and his goatee and his long hair and his red eyes and his white skin.He's got a cool look.
He does.And I will die on this hill.I think he's a great villain for a movie.
I don't think he's a great villain to be the protagonist of a movie that I totally agree with.But I definitely think there is we will see a version of Morbius in a Spider-Man movie that is cool and scary and interesting.
I can't believe we live in a world that we have a Morbius movie.
I cannot believe that of all the Spider-Man characters.Morbius was the one that got a solo movie.
But I, I really liked Morbius when I was a kid.And so when I think about like my sort of Spider-Man origins and the things that I love about it, I always have these like memories of really liking this character.
I don't remember him being in the cartoon a lot.Is he in the cartoon a lot?
I don't think he's in there a lot, but I do remember him here.I'll look up how many episodes he was in.Can I have a follow-up question to you?
Because Morbius very famously in the comic books appears, I wanna say it's Amazing Spider-Man 101 or 121, something like that, but it's very famous that his first appearance is also the appearance of a Spider-Man character that I know you really dislike, but I love.
is, and the animated series adapted this, the Spider-Man with six arms.
Yeah, I hate this.I find the Spider-Man with six arms really scary.
Because the very famous Morbius cover is where he's smacking the Spider-Man with six arms.
You know, maybe that's why I like him, because I don't like the Spider-Man with six arms, so I'm rooting for Morbius at that time. According... Oh, you do have the action figure spotlight.
I specifically have the Marvel Legends action figure of the Spider-Man with six arms because I've always loved that idea.I will never get rid of that action figure because I always think that idea is so weird that I love it.
When I bought it, specifically, I can remember Ashley looking at it and saying, why did you buy that?And yuck.
Yeah, definitely.So there you go.Morbius appeared in a five episode story arc of Spider-Man the animated series.So he's only, okay, so he's five episodes, all right.Which largely deals with his evolution.
I did not predict Morbius being on your list.
Do you remember too, in the animated series, in his palms, he had the little holes from where he was.
He has the sock eyes.That's from the comic books.
Yeah, I remember thinking those were very creepy.
That's how you get to Morbin time.
through the portals in his hands.
Through the suck ass on his hands.
Oh boy, I don't like where this discussion is going.So yeah, my number three is Morbius.
I think he's cooler than Venom.
That's why you put him above in my list.I did.Actually, Morbius is not on my list.
I didn't think he would be.
All right, who is next on your list?
My next character from The Amazing Spider-Man made his first appearance in The Amazing Spider-Man number nine in 1964. Some might say he has an electric personality.
I am talking about Electro, and I'm not talking about the blue skin smurf looking Electro, I'm talking about crazy lightning bolt mask that would not make sense in real life, that it's pointy and triangles outside his face.
He has a really cool idea, but we gotta talk about Max Dillon.
who actually was a real electric lineman who had a lack of ambition, but because of an accident, he was able to manipulate massive amounts of electricity and he just decided to become a big criminal.You know, like everybody does, you know.
Here's the interesting thing about Electro.Electro is insanely overpowered as a Spider-Man villain.In all sense of the word, when you think about Electro going against Spider-Man,
It is surprising and almost unbelievable that Spider-Man has won any fights with this guy who in many points has been able to turn his body into pure energy like he doesn't even become human.
He becomes an energy construct that can travel through power lines.Um, you know,
He's, most of the Spider-Man stories, where Spider-Man fights Electro, is either Spider-Man has to like insulate his suit, so that he can actually punch him, or he has to invent some sort of type of webbing that can get past the electricity, because otherwise- That doesn't carry electricity.
Well yeah, because basically the electricity is so strong that if he shoots a regular web line at him, Electro can incinerate it, so it doesn't even work.There's also something to there's so many stories.
He's also a member of the Sinister Six, but and he's also fought Daredevil several times.But when there are storylines where a spider villain is creating a new Sinister Six or a spider villain is like, I'm going to take over this new mob territory.
almost every single time they hire electro electro like and that happens in the storyline where people are like oh here's a like I understand why they made electro the villain of the amazing spider-man 2 movie I don't think they were successful
But I understand because he is like one of these villains that you introduce in the movie.And I think also that was the problem with the movie is because Electro is powerful enough that he's the only villain in that movie.
But they decided to throw two more villains into it.And you're like, why?Because Electro can carry a whole movie by himself.I just think he has a really good look.He's another one of these Dicco villains that he looks so goofy.
But every time they get rid of his like big pointy triangle mask, the next person brings it right back. I would say it looks like a Christmas tree.He does look like a Christmas tree and he lights up like one too.So that is why I say Electro.
Also, he's always in every Spider-Man game I've ever played.There's usually an Electro and he's always one of the hardest ones.He is so difficult.Even in Spider-Man PS4, he was a hard villain to beat.
And just on those merits, Max Dillon, you my number three. Buddy, he's not on my list you shine like a light like no tomorrow shines like a diamond He shines like a light.He's not he's not he's not diamond.
Oh, he's electro Okay Although that could be any spider-man Let's send a letter to Marvel diamond.Oh, okay.He shoots diamonds out of the palms of his hands great.You like it They're gonna love it.I think they're gonna buy it.
I mean think about the diamond.Oh Jewelry, they could have a Disneyland or an Avengers campus.
Oh, they're cubic zirconia versions.
Dime-a-dose engagement rings.Eee.Ashley, who is your number two?I'm very curious about who's jumping up into your top two spots.
Yeah, this is where I get to characters I actually like, so that's fine.Number two is Black Cat.
So, here's my thing with Spider-Man villains.A lot of them don't have anything besides a look.
I think Batman, due to the amount of time and the sheer amount of issues that have been published, because Marvel can redo their numbering and say that they hit a thousand issues all they want, Batman just more than anything has so many stories he's appeared in.
Batman characters have... Batman rogues tend to have a better, I would say, backstory or like personal connection to Bruce Wayne, even if they don't necessarily understand why.And I think that's what I like about Black Cat.
And the reason I keep evoking Batman is because she's obviously a Catwoman ripoff.
I have a theory to that.And I might have mentioned this on the podcast in previous episodes.I have a theory that if you look at a lot of Batman's villains, you know, pre the 80s.Yeah.
A lot of them are based around a psychological fear of some type, and I think that's the reason why. Look, there's no debating this in my opinion.I don't think you would agree with this too.
Batman's rogues gallery is the best rogues gallery in comic book.Hands down.Spider-Man's I think is a close second.
I agree, but I think blow for blow, Batman's is still stronger.
I think Batman has more stronger villains than Spider-Man, but I think it's because they're based around fears and egos.I think they have more depth to them, whereas I do think you're right.
I think a lot of them do have just crazy Steve Ditko designs, and that's all they have.
Yeah, and that can carry you only so far.What I like about Black Cat is I've always liked when Felicia Hardy and Peter Parker and their civilian identities get involved in the businesses between Spider-Man and Black Cat.
Like I like when they had a romantic relationship.I thought that was really interesting.And when I like that she's older than him and has to grapple with that.I do think she's a little broadly drawn and I think that also comes from her costume.
Well, yeah.And can I ask you another question here? Black Cat is not typically a villain to Spider-Man.She's only been a villain to Spider-Man on the couple specific stories.Most of the time, she's just kind of like Catwoman.She's an antihero.
So like, how do you know it's the opposite of a hero?A villain?
Yes. Well, she steals stuff, but she doesn't... No, she's not trying to destroy the world, I get it.She's not typically the villain of a Spider-Man story.
I also really wanted to not put a white guy on my list.
I wanted somebody on my list who was not a... Now, I don't mind white guys being all the villains, but also when you look at Spider-Man's galleries, I mean, yeah, there's a version of Electro who is black, but that's not the primary version of Electro.
All of mine are white guys.
Yeah, so I knew I wanted to put Black Cat on here and it's mostly because I've enjoyed stories that she's been in.
When she shows up in a Spider-Man issue, I know the story is gonna be compelling and I'm shocked that they haven't sorted her out in the films in any meaningful way.
I actually am very surprised that we haven't seen her in a movie yet.
Cause it was like her or Madam Webb were kind of my only options for females.And I didn't want to, I didn't feel like Madam Webb was at the same level.
Black Cat, I feel is one of the few Spider-Man villains that you could spin off into a solo movie.
What I also like about her, she doesn't have any powers.
She does but it's like the power of luck, right?
But they're not traditional superhero powers.So yes, she's lucky Which is why she doesn't which is like, okay, whatever which is very loose as dad Undefinable.
Um, well like his power sets are also like what are his powers?Like who knows it depends on what we need at the time.
I don't understand that reference, but okay, it's fine.
Yeah, but his space pirate dad is not a mutant, doesn't have powers.
Okay.How does that connect to Black Cat?
Nevermind.I am very confused, listeners.
I have no idea where Lashley went.
What I like about her is that she gets by because she is smarter and more capable than a lot of the other characters.
And I think when you're putting a character up against a genius level intellect like Peter Parker, what other way to stump them than by being smarter than them?
Felicia is great.I like it when she shows up.I wish they'd use her more, so.That's my number two.
It should be Black Cat in time, not Morbin time.That's what I say.Oh, okay.She, I think again, I think she needs a movie.I think she needs a movie.I think she's a great character for a movie.
She's who I want Sidney Sweeney to play in the Madame Web movie.
Oh, OK.You think Black Cat will be in the movie?Just random prediction here.
I think Sidney Sweeney's blonde and she was cast in that movie.And that's about as much thought as I put into it.All right.They were.
I mean, wasn't or wasn't she supposed to have a movie with Silver Sable that was supposed to be out five years ago or something like that?
I mean, they keep talking about a Silver Sable movie and I keep saying why, you know, I don't bring that up.
I know we had cast Bryce Bryce Ellis Howard as Gwen.But I think now she'd make a dope Felicia Hardy.
Look, I can tell you right now, Silver Sable, not on my list.Silver Sable wouldn't even make it on my list if we were doing top 50 Spider-Man villains.I've never heard a single person in my life say, my favorite Spider-Man character is Silver Sable.
Also, you want to be a villain named after a weasel?Like, really?
Yeah.Well, also with a very convoluted backstory.
I mean, don't they all, though?
Yes, but Silver Sable is especially convoluted.
So my number two, Felicia Hardy, Black Cat, Jason, who is your number two?
Well, I don't think there should be much mystery in what my number two villain is, but it is the amazing Mysterio, who first appeared in The Amazing Spider-Man number 13 in 1964.
Look, Mysterio is one of these villains who does have an amazing look, but He also has an amazing backstory because he is a Hollywood special effects designer and stunt man who has he failed as an actor, decided this was his plan.
He's like, I'm going to go out there and publicly defeat Spider-Man.And he has no superpowers.And all of his powers and hijinks and everything all come from the power of Hollywood special effects.
which I think is a concept that probably worked better in the 60s than it does now.But there's something so goofy about it that I love it.
And part of it is because if you look at the look of Mysterio, and it's funny because Marvel has retconned this a couple of times away, but it keeps coming back.
Mysterio wears a fishbowl on his head and he has a bright green costume, a little like Illuminati eyes that clamp his cape onto his chest.And he just looks brilliant.
It's funny to me that you think that that's antiquated because I actually think that you could do Mysterio now in a very, like, for the internet, for like Gen Z. You literally make him a YouTuber.
Well, there is like a Spider-Man villain that is a YouTuber.I can't remember the name of it, but Dan Slott created the character.It's not Mr. Negative, is it?No, it's a girl, and she- Oh, yeah.She appears in the Spider-Man PS4 game.
I cannot remember her name, but anyways. I do.
One of the things I did like about the Spider-Man Far From Home movie is I actually do think the idea that drones project like a simulation in front of you was a really smart way to update Mysterio's powers.
But I meant just in the past that, like, a lot of Mysterio's stories just involve him, like, shooting smoke at Spider-Man.Spider-Man's like, I can't see anything.
And then Mysterio just like really quickly changes costumes is like, I'm your high school teacher, Spider-Man.No.
It's also funny because you're like the low rent version of that is like, OK, so mysterious superpowers is like he carries around a bag of flour, just throws it in his eyes all the time.
A lot of it is he has smoke bombs and like toxic gas to like, which is It was so derivative of Green Goblin when you think about it.But Mysterio has done like a lot of great things.And also like Mysterio, there's a really great storyline.
It was Kevin Smith's first comic book storyline.It's called Guardian Devil, written by Daredevil.And big spoilers for this story that came out in 2002.
But the whole idea of that is that there is this nun who is claiming that this baby that was left outside her church is the Messiah.And Daredevil, goes back and forth.He's like, I don't know what this is.
And then eventually it's all revealed that it's Mysterio and it's Mysterio being like, I was trying to trick you the whole time because I knew I couldn't trick Spider-Man, but I thought I could trick you.
But also Mysterio bumps up to me because Ashley. Did you know that the Earth 616 Mysterio, the main Marvel Universe Mysterio, is also the Mysterio of the Ultimate Universe of Miles Morales?It is the same person as Quentin Beck.Nope.
Yes, it was revealed that Mysterio the Mysterio of the 616 universe is the same Mysterio in the ultimate universe because he found a portal and so he would go to the ultimate universe because it was a less experienced Spider-Man and he would
Dominate over there because he knew he's been fighting a spider-man.It's been around for 30 years.
So his hygiene doesn't work anymore So he fought miles and younger Peter Parker and then actually when Peter Parker died in the ultimate universe he figured out that spider-man was was Peter Parker, yeah, so like yeah that I think is kind of gives Mysterio an edge up that he is the same Mysterio in both of these universes and
Real missed opportunity that we never get to see Bruce Campbell play Mysterio which was the hinted plotline in spider-man 4 by Sam Raimi I was honestly how I kind of thought Bruce Campbell was gonna be showing up in a doctor strange the multiverse of madness.
I Thought they were gonna do that cameo Here's the thing about Mysterio who's a villain that I have like literally no feelings about whatsoever The costume is very stupid.Mm-hmm, but it's also iconic like there are a billion
There are a billion like knockoff parody superheroes who homage the fishbowl and the cape, like the Venture Brothers fight a guy who looks like Mysterio.Doctor Strange is kind of in that category as well.
That very like Ditko design where everybody, when they think of villains.
They think of that.OK, good.
that you might, you know, insinuating that you don't like Dr. Strange's costume.
I was gonna be like, be careful.
Dr. Strange's costume is amazing.
It's amazing in every version.
But also, I mean, even before Dr. Strange was in the zeitgeist, in his Benedict Cumberbatch incarnation, there's also a billion cartoon parody superheroes that kind of look like Dr. Strange.
Yes. All right, cool, are we ready for the number ones that are not really the number ones, but they're the number ones?
Yes, the number ones of these lists.
The number ones that don't include the Green Goblin and Dr. Rockfest.
I wanna say we've had very little crossover, so I'm very interested in these ones.
Well, I don't know, you put Morbius in your list, which really has dumbfounded me, Ashley.LOL.I never expected that.So I don't honestly know who your number one's gonna be.Really?So who is your number one best Spider-Man villain?
Scary white guy. Scary white guy with a funny accent, Kraven the Hunter.
I was like, funny accent, that's a lot of them.
I was like.Kraven the Hunter.
Kraven the Hunter, really?
Kraven is awesome.And he's really scary.And Spider-Man is famed for being an animal totem and his best villains being animal totems.And I think
Kraven is so compelling because he is the antithesis of that, being a big game hunter, following the deadliest game kind of ethos of like, well, or I guess the Zodiac Killer thing of like, I like hunting human beings.That's genuinely scary.
Kraven's last hunt is still super scary and still really, really stands up by contemporary standards.
Also talk about a goofy costume of the two tiger eyes on his chest with the mane of fur around his head.
Also, I mean, if you want to see an exposed chest, Craven is there.There is a frightening subsection of the population who's very thirsty for Craven on Twitter.
And it wouldn't surprise me.
Scares me.They're the same people who are also thirsty for Lobo, which like to each their own.But I was like, absolutely not.
Actually, I have to tell you, it's Craven your number one.Sergi Craven Cravenoff is also my number one.
Sergi Craven Cravenoff.Spider-Man.I am here to hunt the Spider-Man.
Yeah, I can't wait to hear the questionable accent that Aaron Taylor-Johnson does.Based on the questionable accent he gave us as Quicksilver.
Yes, Craven, I wanted to, Craven the Hunter is also my number one.
I suspected this might be the case.
I never thought in a million years you'd pick Craven.
Because let's be honest, There's two really good Spider-Man villains, and there's a couple of mid-stringers, and then there's some low-stringers, right?
And Kraven is kind of the only top-tier villain we have left when we take the other two off the table.
You know, he's a Russian.He's a Russian aristocrat.He was definitely inspired by that great storyline.The most dangerous game was hunting humans.And there's something so interesting.Yes, you nailed it.Exactly.
That it's it's the lion hunting the spider.
Yeah.And also no superpowers.He does take. substances which heighten his ability.
Because he had like there's all these classic storylines that I love and all these classic storylines where he would go to the Daily Bugle and he would sniff around and he'd be like Spiderman is in this building.
He's also one of the only Spiderman villains who's not a victim. A lot of you can even put Felicia Hardy and Flint Marco as victims of circumstance or victims of their means or their upbringing.
Craven's just like a straight up butthole who chooses to live in this way.A lot of the other characters like Mysterio and Electro are victims of circumstances or often science experiments.
And I think that's what in terms of overall evilness, if if we're if we're filling in to quote Lilo and Stitch, your badness level, Craven has the highest badness.
Well, I don't know if I would agree with that.I just think the idea that like Craven is a villain kind of like Ra's al Ghul.He's an honorable villain.Like he several storylines with Spider-Man.
He has decided to not take the final kill simply because it would not be honorable. And that's the only reason why Peter survives.Because, yes, but like, there's something, the idea that Kraven is about the hunt.
And if the hunt isn't honorable, he has no interest.
And again, like you talked about, I want to talk about a little about Kraven's last time, because like, this is one of the best Spider-Man storylines of all time, even though it is really dark and serious for a Spider-Man storyline.
But you know, you bring up the idea of morality and that's that, like he doesn't shoot Spider-Man and then bury him. Well, gives him the opportunity if he wants to earn it.
Yes.Yes.Well, like it's this idea like a Kraven for years.Basically, everybody is that he he was beaten by Peter several times.And then he's eventually like, how do I prove myself as better than Spider-Man?Oh, I need to become Spider-Man.
So basically, that's right.Yeah.He goes around being Kraven, kidnaps Spider-Man and buries him alive for two weeks, takes his black suit because Spider-Man was wearing the black suit at the time and pretends to be Spider-Man for like two weeks.
Yeah, if you were wondering where the inspiration for Spider-Man came from.
And because he fought a villain, a Spider-Man villain named Vermin as Spider-Man, and Kraven was able to beat him, eventually Kraven's like, ha ha, I won, I did it, I beat you.And then he commits suicide.
Because he's like, I can never beat this.This is the top of life.And all the Kravens we've seen since, because there's been a female Kraven, there's been a male Kraven, they're his children.
who now think that the- Craven has become the identity.Well, they think that the suicide was false and it was actually Spider-Man.They think Spider-Man actually killed their father.
Fun fact, weird, which I don't agree with, in some continuities, the chameleon is Craven's brother.
But they're both Russian, which is the idea.But no, I agree with you.Craven has an amazing look.Yeah.Every version of Craven the Hunter has been interesting.
Craven the Hunter, also one of these people that I'm like, yes, that is a Spider-Man villain that could carry a movie by himself.Also, he is a Spider-Man villain that I am shocked has not appeared in a movie yet.
He's also a Spider-Man villain that you could have show up.You could tease him in one movie or in the MCU, right?Like we've talked for a long time about like have Craven show up in a Black Panther movie.
especially as like a white colonizer coming in to attack this incredible African society and then spin him out into a Spider-Man or an Avengers villain.
He's also one of the easiest ones to modernize.Have you ever read The Ultimate Kraven Story?
It's very funny because in The Ultimate Kraven Story, they basically made him a reality television star.And he just decided on TV that he was going to hunt Spider-Man.Yeah.So he gets he finds Spider-Man.He shows up.
And young teenager Peter Parker punches him and knocks him out cold.And that is the entirety of the fight, because Peter's like, well, I figured he had superpowers or something.And and then later, Craven storylines is because of that defeat.
Craven like injects himself with like some drug and sort of becomes a lion.It's less successful going forward.But that initial storyline, I think, is very funny.
I also think because in our reality, we live in a world that has things like both Squid Game and however many seasons of something like Keeping Up with the Kardashians.
The idea that somebody would start a reality television show or a documentary or YouTube channel and be like, I'm going to go kill Spider-Man and everyone else would be like, this is fine.Everything's fine.It's not that much of a logical leap.
I agree.All right.Anything else on Craven the Hunter?
I honestly he's genuinely scary.I can't wait to see him in live action.
We'll see how he translates in real life.
All right, interesting.I did not think Craven the Hunter would be both of our number ones.
When I started this list, the only person I knew was gonna be on it was Craven the Hunter.
Everyone else was just like, well, this person's kind of fun.Nice.
Let's get to the recommended reading, Ashley.Yes.
Which is where if you go to Geek History Lesson dot com slash recommended reading, if you're interested in learning more about any of the characters that we have on this list today, we're going to have some stories there, including Craven's Last Hunt.
Sorry, I giggled a little bit because I looked over an intern cat.Brego, GHL intern cat Brego has just like flopped over like he had to have such a hard time recording this episode to which he did nothing.He's asleep. Yes.All right.
The number one choice in the recommended reading is actually we'll have a bunch of various choices for every character we talked about.But there's one I want to put on here.
The Amazing Spider-Man, the Penguin Classics Marvel Collection is this new hardcover they've done where they kind of reprinted the first 10 and sort of hardcover of the Amazing Spider-Man.
And most of the villains that we talked about today make appearances in those first 10 get their origins.Sure.So there you go.That's definitely one you want to check out.
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