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So we were planning on doing this interview today all in Armenian and I said most of our audience they're English-speaking You know, well, maybe we'll make a couple comments about Armenians here in a minute.
Well, let me tell you why I'm sitting out with a legendary Yes, I'm sitting out with a legendary Armenian who has been in many rooms that you would love to be in while major decisions are being made Let me unpack it for you.
So think about your name is President Nixon.You're under a lot of scrutiny Watergate
you're about to go be doing the interview with frost nixon everybody's like oh my god you're gonna resign they're gonna fire you gotta impeach all this stuff's gonna be happening to you and you're assigned as a chief researcher and you're they're preparing him for the interview with nixon that's my guest today and i imagine if you
Get a phone call from a two-time governor in California who was one of the sexiest men alive at the time, loved an actor, married to a beautiful wife, gets into politics, wins as the president of SAG, is doing stuff for GE on the road, going up there talking about how America is the greatest country in the world.
And this man, this man named President Reagan calls you and says, I want you to be my chief speech writer. And he says, well, you want me to be the chief speech?I want you to be my chief speech, right?I want you to write my inaugural address.
I want you to, in some of these things we're working on, I want you to be there for me.This is the man.So imagine those conversations behind closed doors, decisions being made, all of this going on at the same time.
This man has personally witnessed, and he's got a book that just came out. called Behind Closed Doors, the one and only Ken Khachigian.I say it like that in Armenian English, we may say Ken Khachigian.It's great to have you here.
Good to be here, Patrick.So what a resume.I mean, what a life you've lived.
It's amazing.I never thought it could happen.It has been an amazing life.
From Armenian parents who escaped the genocide, who are from Turkey, Armenians from Turkey, come here,
They raise a son who is from Visalia, which I know Visalia right outside of, I want to say McFarland, probably close to Bakersfield, maybe 40 minutes away from Bakersfield, Fresno area, great area.
And then you go to UC Santa Barbara or Cal State Santa Barbara?You go to UC Santa Barbara.UC Santa Barbara.And you go to Columbia.Columbia Law School.Columbia Law School.And then you come out.
And at the time, somehow, some way, Nixon gets a hold of you, right?If you don't mind sharing that story, how that took place.And it will go into a bunch of questions I got for you.
Well, I was a second year law student at Columbia.I loved politics.I loved it ever since I was in high school.I went to Boys State, California Boys State, when I was in high school.Actually, I saw Nixon when I was at UC Santa Barbara.
We were on the debate team, and I cornered him when he was running for governor for two minutes.I read Six Crises. I was bored with law school, but anyway, I had to finish law school.
Who was he when you saw him?Was he already president?
No, no, he was running for governor.He lost for president, he was running for governor.What year is this?Okay, got it.And he was campaigning in Santa Barbara, and I was on the debate team, and after he spoke, we cornered him just for two minutes.
Anyway, I just saw him and anyway, flash forward to 1967.
Was two minutes long enough where you made an impression that he remembered you?
No, no.Okay, got it.Okay.He made an impression on me.The other way around.Yeah.Got it.Okay.He gave me some time. And I liked the man, then I read his book, Six Crises.1967 now, flash forward, I'm in law school, second year law student.
He's running for president again.Now he has been.He lost in 60, he lost in 62.He was not the front runner for president in 1967.
Nelson Rockefeller was their frontrunner, George Romney was their frontrunner, and Ronald Reagan had just been elected governor in California in 66, and everybody thought he might be president.
So Nixon was below the pack, but I liked him and I thought, you know, this might be an opportunity to get involved in a presidential campaign.
So I'm a law student, so I write and I read an article in the New York Times and it says it's the new Nixon and he has a younger crowd around him and he's developing a new personality.So I wrote a letter to him at his law office.
I typed it out on a typewriter.Remember typewriters?Of course I do, I learned how to type with a typewriter.I wrote a letter on the typewriter and sent it to his law office in New York. I didn't get an answer back.I thought, that's pretty rude.
You did not get an answer back.No.And so I called his office.And they were very polite.They said, well, maybe it got lost in the mail.Why don't you send it again?Well, I kept a carbon copy.You know, you had to keep carbon copies in those days.
How old are you at this time?I'm 23 years old.Second year law student.OK.So I rewrite the letter, type it out all over again.Now, my wife's working on Wall Street. two blocks from his law office.She's at 30 Wall Street, he's at 20 Broad Street.
So I type it, she hand delivers it to his law office.And about three weeks later, I finally get an answer back from Pat Buchanan.Pat Buchanan's working for him as an aide to Nixon.
And he says, you know what, I'm sorry, your letter got mixed up, come in for an interview.I still have that letter.And I have an interview with Pat Buchanan. He kids me to this day.
He says, I thought you were a spy for Rockefeller because you're at Columbia Law School.So we have an interview.It didn't go great, but still he let me come in for- What does that interview look like?
What is the, what do you ask, I mean, at that point?
Well, he's asking me questions, uh, because I was portraying myself, uh, from, uh, uh, I said, I have an expertise in farming because I grew up on a farm.Then he starts asking me questions about the Brandon, uh, plan and things like that.
I didn't know about that stuff.And I said, Oh, I acted really stupid.But basically he saw in me an eager, someone who's eager. There's a word in Armenian, jarbik.
Jarbik is sharp, eager, resourceful.Right, yeah, right.And clever.So he saw someone who wanted to move up. And so he said, come on in, and you can volunteer.
Well, there was only about 15 people there working in the office, because people weren't crazy about Nixon back then.So I said, I'll do whatever you want me to do.I don't want to start at the top.So I started answering correspondence.
But every chance I got, I would volunteer to work, do this, do that.I provided research.
And Martin Anderson, who was at Hoover Institution at the time doing domestic policy advice for Nixon, saw that I was sort of an eager beaver, a Columbia Law student.
And when Nixon started doing well, and then he won the primaries, and then come that summer, they offered me a job.And I got hired to work in the campaign in the summer of 1968, working for, guess who, Alan Greenspan. Wow.
And Alan Greenspan was the domestic policy advisor for Nixon in the campaign.Now, Alan Greenspan was an economic consultant at the time.He was sort of an odd character.Who would he have been today?
You know, he was head of the Federal Reserve.No, I totally get that.Meaning, an Alan Greenspan at that time, if you compare to an Alan Greenspan of today, who is today's Alan Greenspan?
Is there a way to make that comparison or?
No, I can't even think of.I mean, Alan Greenspan played in the, he played the clarinet and I think he played the clarinet in Woody Herman's jazz band back in the 60s or in the 50s along with Nixon's law partner.That's how they knew each other.
And then he became an economic consultant.He was sort of a nerd, economic nerd. Was he sharp when you met him?Was he as sharp like, were you like, this guy's impressive?Well, he was sharp, but he was sort of spacey.
He was sort of a space cadet, you know what I mean?He was out there in Never Never Land.He wanted me to quit law school.He said, you know, you should quit law school because we're going to win this election and we'll get you a job in the White House.
I said, after all this time, my four years of undergraduate work, two years of law school, You're going to have me quit law school after all this?That's crazy.No, I'm not going to quit law school.He was out in this other world.But he was a genius.
I mean, you could tell.He was very cerebral.
Did he think highly of himself?Was he arrogant?
No, no, no.Did he flirt with grand wars?No, no, not in the least.No, no, no.He was down to earth.He was very cerebral, very smart.But I didn't just report to him.I reported to a lot of others as well.But he was my direct boss.
But so when you're doing this, what is your intention?What are you trying to be?Are you here's a guy that is in debate?Right, you're in the debate groups and all the stuff.They doing it at Columbia, right?
You're going through where you're studying politics.You have the interest.Who do you want to be?Are you in the back your mind saying one day?I'm gonna be a congressman a sound are you saying?I'm gonna be a speechwriter.Am I gonna be a dog president?
Who am I gonna be?What's that?
That's an interesting question because Before I got involved in any of that, when I was in high school, or let's say when I first got into freshman year of college, I thought my goal was to become a U.S.Senator.
But by the time I got to this point in my life in the Nixon campaign, I just wanted to get a job in the White House, and I wanted to somehow make a difference.I didn't know where I was going to end up, to be honest with you.
I wanted to have a, I wanted to be in the White House and I wanted to, I wanted people to see that I could help them make a difference in some way.And I didn't know where I was going to end up.
I wasn't like a lot of my colleagues who were searching for power or looking to move up to be on the top.I just wanted people to notice that I was an eager beaver wanting to help out.I wanted to get noticed. But also I had a family too.
I wanted real life.What what age did you get married?I got I Was not quite 20.I was 19 years old.
You got married at 19.So do you have kids already or no?
I was between my sophomore and junior year in college, but we didn't have kids Until I was I think what 25.Okay, so you guys waited six.Yeah.Yeah, we waited till I got out of school
So now you saw you at this point your When I'm looking at the history to see what happened in 1962.It says in 1962 Reagan was dropped by GE.
Yeah, this is the part where GE didn't like the fact that he was talking to political and they're just saying sell how great G is he's selling how great America's like you're on a rally and He formerly registered as a Republican in 64 US presidential election Reagan gave a speech for presidential contender Barry Goldwater and
that was eventually referred to as a time for choosing.We've seen the speech many, many times.So is the temperature high in America with politics?Is that like, I want to be like him when I grow up one day.I want to be on the big stage one day.
Or not really, not for you.
You're talking to me?Yeah.No, no.At that point, I was focused on getting my, just going to college, just trying to get by.I had to pay for my own education.
We got married, my parents gave us $300, my wife's parents gave us $300, and said, now you're on your own.So they were loaded.
They give you a lot of money.That's right.
Very rich oil family from the Middle East.That's right.Congratulations.Yeah.So from that time, we were on our own.We paid for everything.College loans, working summers, working jobs, whatever it is.
So, we were just trying to get through school, get through college, get through law school.No, I didn't have any big, grandiose goals in life.
So, when you started working as a, you said 15 people helping out, Pat gave you a job, he first thought because you're Columbia, maybe you're on the Rockefeller side, because school affiliation, linking there, okay.
And then you're like, we'll give you the job you're in.You haven't yet made a name.You're like, let me just get to work and show you what I'm all about.Exactly.So at what point do you get your opportunity where you're working directly with Nixon?
When did you make the impression on him?I didn't get to work with Nixon directly until after he resigned.
Until after he resigned.Yeah.You know, the White House is a very structured organization.You have very few people have direct contact with the president.You have a massive organization.
But you have very few people have very direct contact with the president of the United States.It's a very insular circle that has real direct contact with the president.So that's the same with the Nixon White House and with the Reagan White House.
It doesn't matter.So in the Nixon White House, I never had a one-on-one conversation with the president.
Never, never.Not even after he resigned?No, after he resigned, yes.
Pre, you did not?Pre, I did not.And why is that?Is that because, because I don't think Trump is like that.Is that because he didn't trust people?
When you watch the Nixon movie with Anthony Hopkins, I don't know if you've seen it or I'm sure you haven't seen it.Why haven't you seen it?You've never seen it?No.Oh, it's actually a pretty good movie to watch.I loved it.
I love watching the Nix, I'm assuming you've seen Frost, Nixon, Frost the movie.
When you watch the movie, uh, you're in it.I mean, Gabriel plays you in the movie, but when you watch Nixon and you see the first time, you know, the role his wife plays and he's almost given up.I don't know if I'm going to pull it off.
He comes back, he runs, he wins the debate.John F. Kennedy, the tanning bed.He looked good.Shea four o'clock, all this stuff that you hear.And then when he's going through it, you don't, you don't feel like he's a guy that trusts a lot of people.
You feel like he just didn't trust anybody, that he was typically by himself because he didn't know who he could trust and who he couldn't trust.Did he give you the vibes of an overly paranoid guy?
No.You know, that's interesting.People say that.It's just the way... No, no. You know, he was open to a lot of people.He was open to ideas.It's just the way the situation is structured.
I wrote memos to him in the 68 campaign that got to him, even though I was just 23 years old.He was always open to ideas and open to... It's just that you can't have people
swarming into candidates and swarming into the president, or else you won't have an organization.I don't know how many people come on to you in your organization.
I don't know how many people have access to you to tell you what to do, or to tell you how to run your organization, or if you have a structured organization, or when you had your insurance company.
if you had junior people able to come on and talk to you directly.Maybe you did, maybe you didn't.But I don't know if Jamie Dimon allows junior people to come and talk to him.I mean, it's just, and if he doesn't, is he paranoid?I don't know.
I don't think you can call people paranoid just because they have an organizational structure.I didn't find it to be paranoid when I got to know him. So that's a bad rap on Nixon that I always feel... I actually think it's a good quality.
I don't think it's a bad quality.I find it as a... I think, you know, here's schizo, okay?Here's paranoid.Here's naive. Okay, I'm okay with you being here.You cross this, then you're miserable, right?
But if you're here, everyone's taking advantage of you.And this, I don't think you're ready to be a president.I think you need to be a little bit here to size everybody up and study body language and look at somebody and know where they're at.
And Nixon gave me a vibe that he was like that.
Well, he studied people very carefully.And as I say, even paranoids have real enemies. But he did study people very good.He was very shrewd at studying people and very good at studying people and knowing their traits.
And at the end of the day, it worked for him really well.
So you got close to him after he resigned.Yes.And who made the phone call?Did Buchanan make the introduction to him or did he reach out to you directly?
What happened was he resigned and left the office on August 9th.Of course, we were all depressed and down.
Okay, who was close to him then was Ron Ziegler, his press secretary, went with him out to San Clemente after he resigned, along with a handful of other people.Jack Brennan, his military aide.Diane Sawyer was with him as one of the press aides.
And after about 10 days, eight or nine, 10 days, Ziegler called me up and said, look, we need some help out here.We're short-staffed.And I was still on the White House staff.Now President Ford was president. And they said they were short-staffed.
Ken, you're loyal to the president.You showed that during the impeachment process.Can you come out and help us out?Because we really have a lot of problems.
So I flew out there on a military plane, and I had my first one-on-one meeting with Richard Nixon.It was really unnerving to me, because now here's the president of the United States, and I'm having my first one-on-one meeting.
And they were after him for back taxes.He had no job.They wanted to disbar him in California.He had no income.They wanted to disbar him in New York.There were subpoenas floating all over the place.I had my law degree.
Of course, they had depended on that.They had no structure of a budget in San Clemente.And they wanted me to help put his financial life in order.
And so I sat down with him, and I'm depressed because I'm 29 years old, and I didn't know what the hell was gonna go on with my life, and here he was, he had lost the most precious thing he ever wanted to achieve in his life, and I thought, what is this gonna be like?
I'm in San Clemente now, sitting one-on-one with him, and you know what?He says to me, one of the first things he says, Ken, don't get down.We have to look ahead.We can't look back.We have to look forward.And I thought, oh my gosh, here I am.
I'm feeling low and depressed and thinking my life is shattered because I'm going to probably lose my job at the White House.And everything he's lost is gone.He's lost his income.He has no job.
Was he a millionaire at the time? Huh?Was he a millionaire at the time?
Oh, I don't think so.No, he had property, but they were trying to go after him on his property.He was going to have to get rid of his property because they felt that he had improperly used federal funds to build up his property in Florida.
This reminds me of somebody.
Yeah, that's right.Except I had a couple of zeros.Yeah.It just reminds me.
Yeah.No, no, no.Exactly.No, no.They were after him.They wanted to.But it sounds like they were successful with him though.
Yeah.Do you think they were successful with trying to destroy Nixon?
Well, not in the end, because he was so resilient.He was mentally resilient, and we can get into that, because this is how we came back.We started—he was already planning his comeback mentally.He was looking ahead.
That's what his—the whole point of that conversation was he was already looking forward and looking ahead.And in those dark recesses of his life, at that moment, he was thinking ahead as, how am I going to rebuild my life?
How am I going to come back?
So this is August 8th of 74.You're 29.Yeah.He's 61.Okay.And he's losing the job that he always wanted to have.This was what he wanted to do for a long, long time.
He wasn't shy about it.His dream was to be the president.And how much after he gets resigned on August 8th, are you sitting face to face to face across from him?
This is 10 days later and I've got about, this is about an hour and a half meeting, I'm sure I have notes somewhere, and I'm sitting down with him saying, here's your financial situation, here's what our options are, plus I'm trying to organize the staff budget, we have certain monies that we can get, there's transition funds, and here's the staff we can organize, and it's at that point that he says,
He'd been told by Ziegler how loyal I was, and he knew I was loyal, and I worked on the anti-impeachment.And then he says, look, I'm going to write a book, a memoir, and if that happens, I'd like you to come out here and work with me on my memoirs.
And I said, I'd really love to do that.
And at that time, how are you getting paid?
I'm still on the White House staff working for Jerry Ford.Got it.But ten days later I return to the White House and then I get fired.
Ten days later, August 18, you go back to the White House and you get fired.
Roughly in that time frame.
Is it because they found out that you went and had a meeting with Nixon?Yeah, of course.Why?Because they were like, why are you meeting with Nixon and you didn't tell us about it?
No, no, no, no.They knew I was out there, but they were eventually going through the White House staff and deciding, well now, who on the White House staff... Loyalist to him, they're getting rid of him.
Yeah, they got rid of Pat Buchanan, they got rid of me.Who's they?Is they Ford?Yeah, Ford's people, yeah.
So they don't want us around.Isn't Ford's people Nixon's people?Well, of course, they have Nixon appointed Ford.That's what I'm saying.
So when you're saying Ford's people are getting rid of Nixon's people, it's another way of saying Nixon's people who were against him revealed themselves by getting rid of the people that were fully loyal to Nixon.
That's a better way of saying it.We were baggage because they didn't want anybody around who supported the anti-impeachment.
Was there friction between Ford and Nixon where Ford didn't like Nixon?
I have no idea what went on between the two of them.I think there was, afterwards, there was a little bit of bad blood, unfortunately.
From Nixon to Ford or Ford to Nixon?I think Ford to Nixon.Ford to Nixon.
Yeah, because, well, after the pardon, uh, uh, Ford took a lot of heat and I think he felt like, I think Ford felt like he, he may have lost the presidency because of the pardon.Got it.So he kind of blamed it on Nixon.
You know, I was, even though he got the presidency because of Nixon, it's sort of a 50 50 situation.
That makes sense.So going back to Nixon.So how many total hours would you say you've spent with Nixon?Just the two of you total hours. You mean in my lifetime?In your lifetime.
If you were to put a number to it.Thousands.Thousands of hours with him.Yeah.OK.What are the different situations you've spent the time with?Dinner, golfing, reading, vacation, business?What would you say?I mean, thousands is a lot of time.
Thousands would be mostly in the office.We didn't socialize.We didn't play golf together. We had dinners, rarely, maybe four or five times, six times, and that would have been traveling.
When I went with him, I traveled with him to London and Paris in the post-presidency when he went.He had a speaking engagement in Paris and in London, and he asked me to travel with him.I went with him when his first grandchild was born.
I accompanied him to New York, and we had dinners. But we didn't socialize in that way.
We spoke on the phone huge amounts of times in his post-presidency to talk politics, to talk about what was going on with Reagan's presidency, Carter's presidency, what was happening in politics.
But mostly it was during the time working on the memoirs and preparing the Frost-Nixon interviews, there was always just hundreds and hundreds of hours accumulated over those years.
Were they in situations like this, like this picture here? Yeah, we're looking at a lot like that exactly.So is he just like that?Is he is he?Is it a conversation?Are you asking him questions?
He's telling you Are you writing for him on many times where you're asking him?What do you think about this?Mr. President?What do you think about that?What's constant processing and asking him questions or is he just?
have an open conversation with you.
Well, now, there we're probably talking about the book, and what certain parts of the book.I was responsible for his campaigns throughout the book, and was responsible for the chapters on probably the Supreme Court appointments.
and all the various campaigns, and so on those various chapters I'd be going through the sequences of the research I was doing on the books.But then, because he would get bored with talking about the book,
And this was 1976, and you had the presidential primaries going between Reagan and Ford in late 75 and then 76 throughout.Then you had the presidential campaign of 76.
He would get bored working on the book and say, hey, you know, let's talk about the New Hampshire primary.Let's talk about the primary in Pennsylvania, or the primary in some other state.
Or he'd get digressing and talking about politics, or he just loved just talking about what happened in the past or about personalities.
You know one time I remember he's talked about the 1960 campaign and for just right out of the blue He said you know I instead of putting Henry Cabot Lodge on the ticket.I should have put Thurston Morton He was the senator from Kentucky.
I should have put Thurston Morton on the ticket, and I might have won What a revelation that was.Can you imagine that?I'm giving you a piece of history.That's crazy.That I didn't even put in my book.
That's a real piece of history I'm telling you right now.Unbelievable.
What was he like behind closed doors when you're having a conversation with him?
Oh, he was fascinating.I mean, when Out of the Blue, somebody talks about Winston Churchill, or somebody that Dwight Eisenhower said, or something that he learned from Willie Brant, or that he had a conversation with Willie Brant.
Now, that was not always.But he loved talking about domestic politics, or things about Jack Kennedy.He had stories about Jack Kennedy. But it was always, and I love talking politics.
What stories did he tell?Like, do you remember any stories he told you about Jack Kennedy that stuck till today?
Yeah, he was friends with Kennedy. And he said, you know, we talked about Kennedy, talking about Kennedy's women.He said, you know, he said about Kennedy and women, he says, it's not women that'll do you in, it's drinking.
He felt that it was drinking that would do politicians in back in those days.Then he went through, I remember him going through a list of politicians that had, there wasn't this, I don't know, maybe this was the family.
family program, but of politicians that may have had problems with women, but he said back in those days that it's the drinking that got to him.
Meaning like if you drank too much, you fooled around, you were irresponsible?
No, the drinking affected your judgment. is what he would say.Got it.A lot of smart politicians back in the 40s, 50s, and 60s, he said that drinking affected their judgment.
I thought he drank, no?Was Nixon a drinker?
He had a scotch at night, but I never saw him when he was boozy.I never did that.Got it.I think those were a lot of mythologies.
So let me, let me, that's the stuff that we see on who we are told Nixon is versus your experience.How different is the misconceptions we have of Nixon versus you have spent a few thousand hours with them?
The big misconception about Nixon is that he's cold and unapproachable.That's what people always say about Nixon, is this notion that you said he's paranoid, that he's cold, he's unapproachable, you can't have a conversation with him, he's not warm.
Just about every politician I know is wary of strangers because they're not quite sure what's going to come of that relationship or contact, especially in this modern age when you can be recorded on an iPhone or whatever.
But still, once you got your first contact with Nixon, he was more than approachable.The conversations flowed freely, especially if you started talking about something that he was comfortable with, about politics, or baseball, or his family.
So I found him to be very, very approachable.We had the greatest conversations.I'm going to go back and just flashback just a minute about these conversations we had.It was about politics.
This is where I learned about Reagan so much, is that discussions about the primaries in 76, because he educated me about Reagan.
And we would talk about Reagan and Ford, what Ford was doing wrong, what Reagan was doing right, and what Reagan was doing wrong.And he made political assessments.
The guy was, I used to say about Nixon, when he wasn't involved with his own campaign, he could make excruciatingly bright strategic judgments.
When politicians are trying to make judgments about their own campaigns, they lose their ability to not be balanced in how they make decisions.But when they're not involved with their own campaigns, they can be very open and neutral.
When you're spending time with them, who did you know?And by the way, I mean, there's two things when interviews like this has happened. You're only going to tell the good, which makes for a boring conversation.
And the audience is going to walk away and we're going to lose them.Okay.And they're going to say, Oh, he's just going to say all the good.And we're not going to hear it.I watched a documentary the other day.I was, I was falling asleep.
Give me something like if they ever make a documentary about me, please don't make you just all good Tell some of the horror stories man, like there's no one walks on water There's got to be some shit that they're dealing with that, you know people want to know so, you know when it comes out to Nixon What were some like who was?
Who were the people that really pissed him off?Who were the people that, you know, really agitated him or got under his skin?Or what were some areas, like, you know, you read rumors about someone.Was he a womanizer?Did he like the girls?
Was he good with the ladies?Did the ladies like him?Was he a, you know, guy who would curse a lot behind closed doors?Was he a smoker?What was attractive about him?Was he a sports guy?What were some of those things about Nixon that wasn't, you know,
Coming from a standpoint of somebody that loves him.
You're obviously a fan of his and by the way, you know Many people now that Nixon's no longer with us say Nixon was one of the better presidents that we ever had Nixon should have never resigned Nixon should have never cave Nixon should have stood up and you know took the you know things that were coming after him There's a lot of people
agree with a lot of good that he did for the economy, a lot of good that he did for the economy.But no one walks on water.What were some of those things about Nixon?
Well, I actually talk about it in my book during the Frost interviews.He was quick to anger during the Frost interviews when his staff let him down. Especially, he was very angry.
There was a scene in there where he felt that we had not provided him the information.He got very upset with... He exploded in anger at Diane Sawyer.It was sort of unfair in a lot of ways.I think he was...
I have to say, it was sort of, it was not childish, but it was explosive anger that he shouldn't have done, because she had made an honest mistake and didn't provide him this information.
And I said, you know, there was this piece of information that we had that could have helped you in the interview that you just did, and she didn't provide it.And then he just exploded all of a sudden, and he cursed.
I'll say this about him, his cursing was It was moderate.He never used, he never spoke, he never used foul words.Really?No, he never.So no F words, no B words, no shit, no stuff like that?No, shit, yes, but no F, no.
Would he say, he's such an asshole, would he say stuff like that?No, he'd say that, but no.Get the F out of your mother, if he wasn't that.No, never that.Never heard him use F words.Really?Ever.Ever?Ever.Wow.
He would have been a bad rapper if he got into hip-hop.But he would, you know, say somebody's an asshole or, you know... he didn't give a shit or something like that.But never, never use the F word.Not once.
I've heard pastors use those words.
Not a single time.Okay.The entire time I knew him.
But he had a temper, so he got upset at that.
No, no.So you were there when... I was there, and I calmed him down, and you know, he would, look, In front of those of us who were, I think, he felt comfortable with, he would rise to anger.And I understand that.
I think you probably do that from time to time with your own staff.Walk on water, I never lose my cool.I'm very calm.Rob, you know.There's people in the booth behind here howling now.
They're not laughing.They better not be laughing.I swear to God, if you're laughing, we're going to have a problem. See this is the part though.
This is the this is the part where people see That the person doesn't what you have the biggest chop in the world.
You are the number one story around the world you're getting fired how many movies and Rob how many can you type in how many movies and Documentaries and books have been written about Nixon.I mean if you were to
Talk about the number of times he's been referenced in a movie.I mean, this is a powerful name, right?So you're under pressure.Some of the guys that you gave a job to have turned against you.They're causing you to lose your job.
You're like, you would have never had a job without me.I chose you.I gave you this opportunity.Now you're flipping on me.These are tough situations to be in.
But that instance with Diane Sawyer and Nixon, what was the specific thing that was it just a- Well, she had, there was a piece of information that she
he could have used in the interview with... That would have helped him?That would have helped him.With Frost.Yeah.
Do you remember what it was or...?
It had to do with the June 23rd tape, that there was something his, the former deputy director of the CIA, could have provided.And it's, again, I describe it in the book. who had warned him that he didn't want the FBI to get afoul of CIA operations.
And he thought that would have been beneficial to him in the interview with Frost.And she had neglected to provide it.And I had remembered it.Now, look. She had done such a stupendous job in preparing him for those interviews.
Stupendous is a good word.She had done a great job.
Like 99% of everything that she had done.Some people in Armenia listen to this.Their English may be their fourth language.I just want to say complimentary of the answer.You're being complimentary.She had a work ethic.
better than just about anybody.And she had done so much.And she had overlooked this one little thing.And I almost felt bad that I had brought this up.Did it bother her?No, no.She almost brought her to tears, yes.But it didn't?It didn't.
But I have to say this.He calmed down right away.
If you're telling this story, if Diane's listening to this, would she remember this moment?
She might have, I don't know.I gave her, I sent her a copy of the book and she may or may not have remembered it.Do you guys still talk or no?Uh, we've, uh, talked, uh, a few months back, but we're not in constant communication.
And obviously Diane Soldier.She's a private person.
She's a private person.Yeah.Got it.She, she lived a pretty public life, going on TV, doing interviews.She did some of the biggest interviews of all time.If you type in the biggest interviews ever done, she's on the list of many of those interviews.
That's a different, there's public persons and private persons though. public persons also have a private life.For sure.But for sure.But you're saying she didn't want her personal life to be out there.She kind of didn't want the fame.
When she was gone, she was gone.Exactly.Got it.Okay.What else would make some, what else did you see where moments where, you know, something bothered him?
It could be, look, I think There's times when he could say something snarky about another politician that maybe sounded petty. I think that's a quality that's not above anybody.It's, or maybe it would be, let's say gossipy.
He was not above political gossip, let's put it that way.
No.Got it.So if you're talking about me trying to say, yes, he didn't walk on water, but that's not a horrible trait in my judgment.That's something people do all the time.But I can't give you anything.He didn't drink to excess in front of me.
He was not a womanizer. He was a very generous man.He did good things with me.
Would he ever talk to you like, for example, would he ever sit there behind closed doors and you're not an economy background, but you had some stuff you did with Greenspan.So you have an economy where you're coming and saying, here's a budget.
Here's how much money we got.We're going to deal with this.So you understand money well.Would he say to you ever, Any questions behind closed door second guess and saying, you know what?
You know, when I said we're going to this, this going off of gold standard is going to be temporary.I should have never done it.Okay.You know, when it came down to this, I should have never resigned.Did he ever tell you I should have never resigned?
Did he ever say any of that stuff?
Um, Well, he did talk about he shouldn't have fired Haldeman and Ehrlichman.That's for sure.He mentioned that more than once.He felt that was a bad decision that he made.Why?Because it didn't change anything. He said that they were loyal to him.
He said it was like cutting off his right arm and his left arm, and that he felt that that was a mistake that he made that It didn't make any difference in his presidency.It didn't help him.It didn't help him out any, and it just hurt them.
And I think, in the end, it probably worked to his disadvantage in a lot of ways.It turned Ehrlichman against him. It hurt Haldeman a lot, although Haldeman didn't turn against him.But I think he got nothing out of it, is what he meant.
And he said that any number of times.
But who's the one that turned against him, not Haldeman?Who turned against him? Well, Ehrlichman was in the end was bitter, more bitter about it.But did either one of them like come back and destroy him?No.And become an enemy of him?No.
So why was he second-guessing that decision there?Is it because he liked them and he misread them?No, because they were the most important people on his staff.
So why did he fire them initially? Because there was a lot of pressure, because there was all this pressure on them.
At the time, the Washington Post and all the... They had been testifying for the Senate Watergate Committee and the grand jury was after them.
There was a lot of public attention put on them that they had participated in the obstruction of justice, that Ehrlichman had participated in this plumbers operation and everything, and that they were at the center of a lot of the illegal, allegedly at the center of a lot of the illegal activities in the White House, and that, so they were anchors around Nixon's neck.
And so there was, um, I can't remember who all was saying, he was probably getting some internal advice that, look, uh, these are, this is just negative to you, Mr. President.You've got to get rid of these two guys.
And, uh, because it's just, uh, uh, uh, uh, negative to your president.
He needed to fire somebody to say, it's like a football team's got a bad record.They fired a coach.Yeah.So it's like, let's fire these guys to make it seem like, well, it wasn't me.It was really them that did it.
Yeah, and sometimes... That mess with them.And it doesn't help.Yeah.So let's... Okay, so the baseball team is not doing any good, so you fire the general manager, and it doesn't make any difference.
Right?Instead, what should he have done?When he tells you that and it goes down, what does he say?Does he say, I should have done this, I should have done that?
I should have kept him, is what he said, because he leaned on them so much.He leaned on their advice.Bob Haldeman was the guy he talked to, the first guy he talked to in the morning, the last guy he talked to at night.Oh, wow.
And so these guys are very big influential people in this administration.
Oh, yeah.No, no, there were the two key guys that he I mean That he talked to all the time.
What did they end up doing afterwards?What what big job did they have after Nixon? Did they ever have another bitch over nobody trusted?
Well, they both went to prison.And then they both wrote books.And I can't remember.They both went to prison?Yeah.How long did they, do you remember how long?Was it a good amount?It was, I think, several months.
I mean, they were not, it wasn't years and years.I can't remember.
So Nixon took responsibility for this happening with these guys.He felt like it was his fault that they went to jail.
I think it was, he felt it was his fault that they, uh, I think they, he felt they got a bad rap.And I think a lot of them got bad raps.
That's a whole different story that, uh, so, uh, did they ever have another job, Rob?Oh, they went to what he was found guilty and imprisoned for 18 months.Around the time of release, he returned to private life.I was a successful businessman.
Had another, uh, Is that Holderman or?
Yeah, he had another job afterwards.So he came back and went in business.
He died from cancer at 60-something.
Yeah.How about?Ehrlich wrote books, and I don't know if he had a real job.
He wrote books.He was also in jail for a year and a half.By the way, did you ever see them after the Watergate scandal?Were you ever there where they reunited afterwards?I saw Holderman. You saw Halderman?Yeah.Him and Nixon were together afterwards.
I just saw Halderman.And how was... Personally, one on one.Oh, I'm sorry.Got it.But never with Nixon.They never reunited with Nixon?
No, they did.They did reunite, but I wasn't with them.All three of them?No, I don't think I ever saw Hald... Erlichman again.
Is it because Erlichman was like... As far as I know.Okay.And when you met with Halderman, how was he?Was he... What did he tell you?
It was a very interesting meeting. Haldeman, we were all terrified of Haldeman in the White House.Why?He was a very, because he was a very, they called him Sweet Old Bob because it was, because it was the initials for SOB. So he was a tough guy.
Because he was very stern.He had very strict rules.And he had a very stern demeanor and personality.And he ran things all by the rule book.So I had one conversation with him the entire time I was in the White House.
And I knew he was going to call me to get a piece of information.And I was scared.I was frightened that I was nervous that he was going to call me for this piece of information, that I would screw up and I'd get in trouble.
And even though it was just a simple, he was going to call me to ask me how the press treated some piece of information.So people were... He had a reputation?Reputation.
What caused the reputation though?Blow ups or?
Yeah, just don't screw up around Haldeman, you'll get in trouble.He's just a tough guy.He ran a tight ship.And even those people who worked for him, He knew that he was stern and ran a real tight ship.
So anyway, so Bob was just- Was he Nixon's number one general?Yeah.He was chief of staff.
OK.And then how about Ehrlichman?What role did he play?
He was head of domestic council.He was the head of domestic affairs.But he was the lead.He and Haldeman went to school together. And Haldeman brought him into the campaign to run the advance operation.
But then Ehrlichman ran the whole domestic affairs operation.So he ran all the domestic.So he oversaw the entire domestic council and all the domestic legislation and everything else.So Ehrlichman was not as feared as Haldeman was.
Well, he didn't have the same role as Haldeman. in terms of running staffing or anything else.But they were, the two of them were known as quote the Germans.The Germans?
Were they German?Yeah, Ehrlichman and Haldeman.Right, so they were Germans but born here obviously.
Okay, so UCLA alumni and interesting.So how about Ford?Did he have a relationship with Ford?Would he talk about Ford or they were not that close?
Well, they were close.They came into Congress.I think Ford came into Congress, I think, in 48.And Nixon came in in 46.And they were colleagues throughout the years in Congress.
And they were always close friends and colleagues throughout all those years. They weren't, I don't think they were pals, real close pals, but they were friends.
I mean, they didn't, so I don't know that they socialized together that much, but he wouldn't have chosen him as vice president if he didn't have trust in him or feel that he was, you know, could be safe around him or anything else.
Did he trust Reagan?Was he a fan of Reagan?Oh, yeah.Very much so.Well, once he got elected, he was.He was wary of Reagan in 68 because he viewed Reagan as a potential challenger.
So once he got elected president and Reagan was not a political threat to him, yes. But as long as Reagan was a political threat to him, that was a different story.Were you ever in a room with the three of them?Oh, yeah.
How was that when you guys were together?
It's on the cover of the book.How was that when you guys were together?
Oh, that's the last chapter of the book.It's an amazing story.I call it the Lion's Gather.And it was fantastic.Didn't you have a nickname?The Lions, they called you.What was your nickname?
Oh, no. Yeah.I read another nickname for you that said, uh, what was the other nickname I read for you?There was another nickname I saw that you had.Let me see if I can find this or not, but they had a nickname for you.
Maybe you don't know this nickname.You're going to find out about it years later.Who knows?I saw nicknames.I'll find out.I'll tell you what the nickname I saw.Uh, or the line of, uh, was a line at California elections.
He's registered regarded as a line of California GOP politics.
I had a lot of nicknames.People who worked for me probably gave them to me.
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How often were you with the three of them together with Nixon and oh just that one time, okay?
Got it, and it was that's it was such a fascinating meeting.That's why it's the last chapter of my book What is this picture?
That's that's the end of the meeting and it was at the It was two days before we opened the Nixon library.I oversaw the opening of the Nixon library in 1990.We opened the library on July 9th.
I tell you, Kiki, you're a very good looking man.Look at that picture right there.Look at that smile.You look like a Hollywood lawyer.Look at that big time.
Yeah.Well, somebody said they'd never seen me so happy.
I don't know. So after you working with Nixon, was your relationship with Nixon what helped you get President Reagan to make you the chief speech writer?Yes, yes.That's obviously a sign that Reagan trusted Nixon to call and say, who do you recommend?
And Nixon made the recommendation, I would assume.
It was not directly to Reagan.It was indirectly.
What do you mean indirectly?
When Nixon finished the memoirs, and was basically, had gotten, the purpose of the memoirs and the Frost interviews was to get Watergate behind him, to reinvent his life, to restructure, to get his financial house in order.
He got paid a lot of money for his memoirs and the Frost interviews.And then, by that time, he didn't need a staff like he did for the memoirs or anything else.Plus, he was bored living in San Clemente.
because people had a hard time coming out to see him.So that's when he wanted to move to New York.That's in late 79, early 80.So I was going to be out of a job.So I, he kept me on, Nixon kept me on in 79 throughout this as a consultant part time.
And then I started looking for work.And then I had friends in the Reagan campaign that he started up for president in late 79. These are old pals that actually had also had worked for Nixon previously.
And so I had some consulting arrangement with them as well. Nixon said, I'm going to, then he announced to me, I'm moving to New York because I got to be where the action is.
And he said, at about this time, he said, I'm going to introduce you to Stu Spencer, Stuart Spencer.Stu Spencer ran Reagan's gubernatorial campaigns in 1966 and was his political advisor for all those years. the Spencer Roberts organization.
So Stu Spencer was previously Reagan's campaign managers.And Stu Spencer was somebody that Nixon knew from political campaigns.He managed Nelson Rockefeller's campaign in 64.Yeah.But Stu Spencer had also run Jerry Ford's campaign in 1976.
So even though he had run Reagan's campaigns previously, he was no longer on Nancy Reagan's Christmas card list.But he had an office in Newport Beach and had a lot of political contacts.
And so Nixon said, go sit down with Stu Spencer and see if he's got any work for you.So I met with Stu in 1979.And Stu said, well, why is Dick Nixon sending you to see me?And I said, well, he said, you've got a lot of contacts.
So I started meeting with Stu.And I had actually did a little help with him writing some stuff.I write about this in the book. Stu and I stayed in touch, and in 1980, Reagan's campaign started getting into trouble in August and September.
It wasn't doing well.And Nancy and Ron Reagan said, we've got to do something to get things in order, especially Nancy did, because she was sort of the boss. And she said, you know what, even though we're unhappy with Stu, we've got to get Stu back.
And so they called Stu up, and Stu said, OK, if you're going to get me back, even though we've had all these problems with each other in the past, The problem with your campaign is you're trying to run it from the headquarters.
If I'm going to be in this campaign, I'm going to run it from the plane.You can't run it from the headquarters.
And if I'm going to run it from the plane, I get to choose the policy person, the press person, the person who runs the campaign tour, then I get to have a speechwriter with me. And that person turned out to be me.
So Stu Spencer, this- Interesting guy, by the way.
Yeah.He's 97 years old.Last time he voted for a Democratic president was in 1947, 48, Truman.And in 2020, he voted for Biden over Trump. Yeah, he doesn't like Trump.No, he's not a fan of Trump.No.So, okay, so you get into the Reagan family.
Yeah, I had been begging to get involved in the Reagan campaign for months and months and months and they were not letting me. get the job I wanted, by the way.
Did they give you a reason why?
Oh, they said we don't have the money, we're having trouble with our budget, you know, blah, blah, blah.
What was your first meeting with him?When was the first time you met him?
The first time I met him was at UC Santa Barbara again.I was student body president, and I introduced him.I got him to speak to the campus, and that was one of my jobs.I got to introduce whoever spoke to the campus.
And who was he then, the governor?
No, he was running for governor.
And this is 63?66.And was UC Santa Barbara a party city, party school back then, or not really?Yeah, well, yeah, it was a party school.But I was married, so.I mean, UC Santa Barbara had a reputation when I was in my early 20s, late teens.
Long bookstores.Didn't matter what you wanted, everybody you wanted was there.There was something in the water, I don't know what it was.
Okay, I'm gonna start interviewing you now.
Well, I will plead the fifth is what I will do if we go through that phase.
So I introduced Reagan to the student body back in 66.That's the first time I met him, so.But that was, we had no conversation with each other other than I talked to him on the stage for two minutes, but.Pleasant guy?
Yeah, oh yeah, he was genial, always genial.But then I briefed him, I did have a consulting arrangement with them.
In early in in 1980, I briefed them on issues along with several other people But then I lost all contact with them because they had all these BS issues with their budget and this and the other so I didn't get hired until There was five and a half weeks left in the campaign when Stu Spencer says I get to choose the speechwriter
That's how I got involved.
Speech writing.I'm on the airplane.You're on the airplane with him.
Critical.Tell me.It's critical because that's where the campaign is being run.Right.The day-to-day.On Air Force One.No, no.He's a candidate. He's a governor.He's a governor.You're on a plane with him.
I mean, we called him governor.He's ex-governor.How many hours did you spend with him versus Nixon?Was it more Nixon than Reagan?
One-on-one I've spent probably in aggregate more hours with Dixon because I worked on his book with him.Got it.But I did spend a lot of time with Reagan.
With Reagan.Was Nancy more present when you're talking to Reagan than Pat being present when you're talking to him?I can see that.Yes, yes, yes.Did she give you vibes of a control freak or somebody that was just protective of her husband?Both.
Give me examples of control free This is this is why people need to read my book I Called her the chief of staff and she joined the campaign which is a positive thing Because he trusted her he he trusted nobody more than he trusted Nancy Reagan He called her mommy
And when I first joined the campaign, she wasn't on the plane.She was still in Los Angeles.And then she joined us a week later, and things were wobbly, wobbly, wobbly.
But then she came on the plane, and it steadied him, because he always just needed her by his side. And, but there was like an occasion I describe in the book where, for example, I was under great pressure to get this speech to him.
We were on our way to Lima Lima, Lima, Ohio.It was the Lima or Lima, I can't remember how they pronounce it now.
And we were doing a speech, and we're 45 minutes away, and we're under pressure, and the plane's on final approach, and we're trying to get the speech, and I'm under pressure trying to type it in the back, and we have to write it and put it on the half sheets to get to him.
she walks back to me and she says, Ken, where's the speech?Ma'am, I'm working on it, we're trying to get it done.Where's the speech?And I say, I'm almost done.She says, Ronnie is looking for the speech.So you get the feeling now.Urgency, let's go.
Where is it at?I need it.Yeah, he needs it right away. And I get it, rip it out of the typewriter, the secretaries have to type it up, they have to put it on half sheets, get it up to them, take it up to them.
So that's her role as being a control freak. and being like in charge all at one time.
Was this a she thing or was this him like, you know, certain CEOs are afraid of firing people.
That's him being telling, asking her to do it.Oh, got it.So it's, it's she, it's he, he can't be a confrontation.
I got it.So he, so he was a guy that would avoid conflict.If he needed to fire somebody, he couldn't do it.Nancy, can you fire this person?
Interesting.So it's not her doing, taking the initiative. He was relying on her and delegating to do the tough job.
Oh, yeah.Wow.Do you ever have a moment where President Reagan gave you direct criticism one-on-one?
Once.It's a famous moment in the book.And it makes a very big difference in policy. And that's when it's prior to the first Geneva summit with Gorbachev.And he brought me in.
I was back in California, but he's going to prepare a speech before the General Assembly to the United Nations in the fall of 1985. And I get called in in, I think the speech is in October of 1985, September, October 1985.
And the basic speech is written by his speech writing staff, and I get called in because they want me to shape it up and put it in his words and make sure it's edited properly.So I get called in from California.
and I have two meetings with him, and I'm assuming the initial speech is written by Ben Elliott, the head of the current speech writing staff, and it's a pretty tough anti-communist speech.
And I'm assuming he still wants it to be a pretty tough anti-communist speech, because this is Ronald Reagan. So I edit the speech and work it out, and I make it, the tone, just pretty much the way it's supposed to be.
And I finalize it, get the final edits in, have my secretary ship it in to him the night before, and then we have a meeting.I don't think you have I don't know if you have the picture of it.It's a picture of us sitting around in the Oval Office.
I'm sitting right next to him in the Oval Office, and there's several of us in the meeting.It's in the Oval.Anyway, there's me next to him, and there's Pat Buchanan, Don Regan, John Poindexter, and Bud McFarlane.
And so I sit down, and I think I'm going to get a pat on the back for doing a nice speech for Reagan.
First thing he does is he says, well, Ken, if we're going to have a different relationship with Gorbachev, we can't be using this harsh rhetoric regarding the Soviet Union.And I go, whoa, where'd this come from?All of a sudden,
Reagan's going soft on communism.And I'm getting spanked in front of all these other guys.And it's really, I mean, my feelings are getting hurt.And I think I'm getting sabotaged by somebody in the White House.
And then he starts going on and on about that he doesn't like the language, it's too tough, and it just doesn't sound like him at all.And so he wants it changed.The meeting is around 10 o'clock or whatever it is, somewhere around there.
I've got a flight going back to California at five, so now I've got just about four hours to re-edit this whole speech and change the language. And all this time I thought I'm being sabotaged.
Well, it turns out that this is a whole change in philosophy that he wants a different approach.Strategy?Yeah, a strategy approach to Gorbachev before the summit.
Now, I write a whole chapter on this because I found out years later, talking to Bud McFarlane, that the influence on him was from Lady Thatcher, who told him he needs to have a different view towards Gorbachev, and then Nancy.
Mrs. Reagan wanted him to soften up.Anyway, that's when I got... That's a long way of telling you that you asked me if I ever got negative vibes from him.
That's when I got... Aside from that?
No, aside from that... You ever saw him lose his cool?Yes.Not... Not badly, but just... He was angry. He got angry about in private when he felt that he was, this is, again, towards the end of his administration, and complained about.
not angry in the sense of his voice rising or anything else, but he was angry about how he got taken by his staff on raising taxes in 1982.That still, that bothered him.Really?Yeah.Why?Because he was lied to by his staff and staff manipulated him.
Who, when you say staff, is there a name or two?
Well, there's several of them.Richard Darma and Jim Baker.Jim Baker.David Gergen, they all worked together.And they lied to Ron.David Stockman.Well, they manipulated him in ways that they wanted him to go.Let's put it that way.
Would you say... I write about it, so I don't, it's not like I'm telling you something.
Would you say Jim Baker, James Baker, I read his book, phenomenal story of who he was, tough guy.What was your impression of Jim Baker when you were around him?
He's a very pleasant guy, he's very affable, and basically I always got along with him. And very charming, you know, comes from Texas.He has that Texas charm.But he can be very tough.But we had- Was he an SOB?
Yeah, he could be.We crossed swords later on in the 84 campaign.But then we, you know, basically, I think he decided that he and I would be We're better off not getting in a pesky match with each other.
But I think at the end of the day, he preferred not to have to do battle with me.But it's clearly we had different views of where Reagan should go.And he wanted Reagan to be much more, had a softer view of America than I did. I want to take that.
He wanted Reagan to be less Ronald Reagan than Ronald Reagan was.
Let's put it that way.Jim Baker, some people say he was the first Dick Cheney before there was a Dick Cheney.Would you agree with that?I don't know what that means.
Meaning he, you know how they say Dick Cheney was the guy that was making a lot of decisions behind closed doors with Bush and Jim Baker was one that ran the show or no?
Well, there's a lot to do with that.But I think, yes, I would say that, but not in a positive way.
Yeah.Because, again, as I write about in the book, especially on domestic policy issues, he did things.It's not just him.He brought in people that worked against Reagan's interests.And I write about it in the book.
And it's important that people read about it.And Reagan talks about decisions that were made that were not in Reagan's interest.Now, Reagan doesn't name names because he didn't realize what was going on.
And it's just that I found information in the archives.And when I researched the book, I found more and more information that led me to find factual reasons to believe that Reagan was, you know, he was taken to the woodshed on these things.
Did you ever read the book, The Man Who Ran Washington?
What did you think about it?
Well, I thought it was a fluff job on Jim Baker. He embellished his, a lot of it was good in the sense that it exposed a lot of things about him and a lot of it was a fluff job.
Was Baker more a Bush guy or a Reagan guy?
Well, look, he did his job.He was a Reagan guy in the sense that if he was required to do something that Reagan really wanted to do, he did it.But if he could get away with doing something that he believed that
Reagan should do, even if Reagan did not want to do it, and he could get away with Reagan doing it, he would do it.And that was like the tax package in 82, raising taxes.They all thought that was in Reagan's interest.
And they convinced it was in Reagan's interest.And Reagan called it one of the worst mistakes of his presidency.And he told me that twice.
Behind closed doors, how did Reagan feel about Bush?He liked him.He liked him?Yes, he did.Did he trust him?Yes.He trusted him?Yes.Senior?
Yes.He liked Bush, and he felt Bush was a good vice president, and he trusted him and liked him.I didn't know any different.
Did you ever read the story about Bush Sr.and his son Neil meeting with Hinckley's brother coming down to dinner? a day before the shooting, the same day of shooting.And then that guy canceled.No, you never heard of that.
Um, trying to see what, Rob, can you play the clip?I think, uh, Tripoli talks about that.No, not that one.I texted it to you and there was an article written about this.I mean, if you're saying no, that means he never brought it up.
It's, you follow Joe Rogan, you know who Joe Rogan is?
Yeah, I know who he is, yeah.
Okay, Rob, I texted to you, so if you just look at your text, you'll find it.I texted to you right before us getting into it.It's a clip that just came out, I wanna say last week.I don't know if you have it, Rob, or not.I don't have it.
Okay, so there is a clip of, let me find this thing for you.Hang on one second.Is this it? Yeah, it's on Twitter.If you go on Twitter, you should be able to find it.Um, let me see here.Let me see here.It's very interesting.
And then I went and looked at it.I'm like, is there really any credibility behind this?And then you see some of the stories about, um, So funny, Rob.I literally watched this before we went live.So your impression is they were good.
There was no issues there.
No, no, no.And I have a high regard for Bush himself.It's just that when he brought Baker in, see, Baker brought in people to work for him that did not have Reagan's interest in their heart.They felt like they were independent.
I mean, again, you have to read my book.This guy, Darman, was a terrible influence. And Baker gave him a free hand.And it was just destructive to Reagan's domestic presidency, in my judgment.And it's a story that needs to be told.
And he was an abrasive personality.Baker or the guy that he brought in?Darman.And Darman admits, admitted in private conversations with reporters, that he didn't want public until I found them.
that he came to the White House to change Reagan's economic program.Now, he had no business doing that.You don't come to work for the president to change his economic program.Do you want somebody to come to your organization
and secretly try to change what you're doing, that's wrong.They can't come to work for.But how do you not catch that?How do you, as the president, not catch that?
Because you're trusting your chief of staff.But you still get criticized for the person you hired.I've made a lot of bad hires.How did Reagan hire somebody that he didn't trust like Baker?Did he have a relationship with Baker?
Or would Baker be somebody that was part of the swamp?
That's a good question.Baker's working.He's working the press all the time.And Reagan's a really trusting man.And he's assuming that the staff's doing the best thing for him.
And plus, at the end of the day, they convinced him he was doing the right thing.Look, Reagan called me in. December of 1981 to consult on his 82 State of the Union address.
And he gives me this long lecture about how Lady Thatcher screwed up by raising taxes in Britain, how she, by changing her mind, by reneging on her plan, that she had cut taxes by raising taxes.
Boy, he gave me this long economic lecture about what a stupid mistake she made.She should have never done that.And I thought, boy, good for him.He's sticking by his guns.He's not going to raise taxes this next year.
And then he signs on to this Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act, TEFRA, in 1982.Now, once he does that, he's going to sign on to this bill. He starts calling in.
He calls in Marty Anderson, and he calls in Len Nofziger, and he calls me in, and he calls us all in in order to tell us, I don't want you guys arguing against me on this out in public. because I'm changing my mind, obviously.
They've convinced him that he's not actually raising taxes.Mr. President, these are only excise taxes.They aren't real tax increases because they aren't income taxes.
And then they've convinced him that we're going to get $3 in budget cuts for every dollar of excise tax you raise.
And then in 1988, when we're working on his farewell speech to the Republican convention, he does, pounding on his damn desk to me, he says, the fellas misled me. He says, damn it.
He says, they promised me $3 in budget cuts for every dollar of tax increase.Instead, for every dollar of tax increase, I got $1.70. or excuse me, for every, I got $1.70 in revenue, and I got $1.70 of tax increases for every dollar in budget cuts.
I got just the opposite.And he felt that he got screwed. And I got lied to.
That's part of his legacy, though.He raised taxes.A lot of people say that.And it's unfortunate, because it stays.And years later, they're like, you say Reagan's such a great president.He raised taxes, right?That's right.
You know, if I was the president, how I would do it, I don't know how you would.I would have a, because when I do calls, I have lawyers who hold lawyers accountable. I don't know if that makes sense.
So let's just say this lawyer's writing a contract form.You're looking at an agreement and you'll send me the red notes and all this other stuff.Then I'll go to this lawyer and said, do you think this lawyer is doing a good job doing this?
And he holds them.It's like, no, he missed this one part.Then I'll go to this lawyer and I'll say, how about this one?Oh, I missed that one.I fixed it.So sometimes you need, like if you get the accountants that are doing numbers,
Finance and taxes you almost have another team over here that no one knows about a shadow team that holds these guys accountable or else sometimes You're not gonna know everything about every law about every IRS about every code about every CPA every account But if you can do that that allows you to hold people accountable.
This is the clip I was sharing with you that happened two weeks ago this is literally the same day when Trump's interview dropped and This was dropped six, seven, eight hours prior to that interview.
Rob, if you can play this clip, uh, the gentleman that he's having on, right, there was a comedian talking to Rogan.Both of them are very good.He's very funny, but he is what he had to say.Go ahead, Rob.
One of the things I wanted to talk to you about, I wanted to play this, but we decided we shouldn't play it.We don't want anybody to have any sort of way to get it down.
The episode of you when you're on the view, make this one of the things I wanted to talk to you about.There it is.
Is related to Obama and Bush?The Bushes had dinner with the Hinkley's the night before Reagan got shot.What?Yeah.
Is that crazy?Do you think, okay, I always thought Hinkley was a lone nut that was infatuated with Jodie Foster.
I had the delusion back in 1981 that by shooting the president, I could impress Jodie Foster, which me saying that now it's, it's ridiculous, but that's what I believed back then.
There's actually interviews, dude, where he said, Uncle George told me to do it.Oh, Jesus.Okay.And they just let him out.Yeah.And now he's doing like plain and coffee beans because he's put out an album or something like that.
So by the way, so I go out, Rob, pull up the story that we saw.There's our connection between John Hinckley Jr.and the Bush firm.Can we give credit to whoever wrote this?What was it called?
You ever heard of those guys Rob before?No.Okay.Go a little lower to see who it is.And by the way, the story, matter of fact, this is the better way to do it.This was written on New York times many, many years ago.
So if you go more than $5 a month, at the moment, Washington DC raising, which I went to, so witnessing was an arm called little low Rob at the bottom.It talks about the Bush connection.Go lower, go lower, go lower.
If you type in Neil, why don't you just type in Control F Neil, there it is.Scott Hinckley had met with Neil Bush earlier that year at a party and became friendly with the fourth child of George W. Bush.
According to Garnet News Services, after news of the assassination attempt broke, Neil Bush canceled a dinner in the shooting aftermath.The media swarmed the Bush family on their connection to the Hinckleys.
The fact that they had a dinner schedule with, you know, Scott Hinckley, and obviously Scott Hinckley, his brother's the one that tried to shoot him.You've never heard of this story?
Rob, can you go to John Hinckley's, go to John Hinckley's Wikipedia?Who was at dinner with President Bush?Neil Bush, President Bush's fourth son.
So if you can, there you go.Zoom in a little bit, Rob, right there so I can read it.
Right there, it says, New York Times, the eldest Hinckley child, Scott 30, the vice president of his father's company and friend Neil Bush, the son of the president, Scott Hinckley, and a date had been invited to have dinner with the young Bush's
Home last night, but the dinner was canceled after the shooting and that's New York Times by the way, which is kind of weird Like you've never heard of this before Wow.What do you think about this?
Do you give any of this any credence or it's like nah, just this is So what if they did what if they did have dinner well, I
You know how Lyndon Johnson became a president, and the one story that no president ever wants to leak is how John F. Kennedy got assassinated.
I interviewed a guy named Jim Jenkins, who was one of the four men, right after John F. Kennedy died, that held his brain.And these were the four military folks who held his brain.And they said, look, he said he left the life.
And he said somebody had messed with it before it came to us. And I said, what do you mean?So somebody I messed with him before he came to us.And I went through the rabbit hole.I interviewed another man who worked on that day.
And I interviewed a bunch of different guys.I went through the whole thing.And a lot of people point to Lyndon Johnson being behind what happened to Kennedy.And the reason why it goes to Lyndon Johnson, Lyndon Johnson was a Texas guy.
So in this case, the fastest way to become a president is, God forbid, something happens to the president. You're the president, right?The VP becomes a president.So why would you meet with the brother whose brother tried to kill the president?
I see where you're going.
It's just that if you knew George H.W.Bush, he was such a gentleman and such a That would be so beyond the pale for him.
Now, I don't know about his kids, but that would be something beyond anything he would ever... What was he like when you were around him?He was such a nice... Look, I first connected with George H.W.Bush when I was in the Nixon White House.
And he was head of the Republican National Committee.This was an interesting story.And I had to write speeches for people to support President Nixon against impeachment and Watergate issues.And so Bush was at the Republican National Committee.
And so I had to write a speech for him defending Richard Nixon.So I wrote this tough speech for Bush.And so he went out kicking somebody, you know, kicking butt and everything else.And he called me afterwards.So this is in 1974.
I'm guessing it had to be late 73 or somewhere in 74 when he was head of the Republican National Committee.And he had the courtesy to call me at the White House.
And I was deputy special assistant president, just a small fry, and to thank me for writing that speech.And people almost never did that.And he thanked me.It was a courtesy call.
And he said, Ken, I just want to thank you for helping me with that speech. And he said, you know, that's tough duty out there.And he was carrying the water for Nixon.And he didn't want to because that was a tough job for him to do.
But he was head of the Republican National Committee.And he knew he had to do it because he's loyal to President Nixon.And so I'm just saying that's the kind of guy he was.
And every contact that I had with him when he was vice president, when he was a candidate, and when I saw him as president, He was just always the nicest gentleman I've ever known.I can't say anything else about him.
I had a moment.I have different views about his other family.Who?
Jeb or?W. Oh, really?Did you ever interact with him?
Just indirectly, but I mean, I just wish that he was more active on behalf of his party, that's all.
You mean today?Yeah. And, you know, when you say that, are you yourself, because you've spent time with Nixon, with Reagan, with a lot of different, I think you even helped write, if I'm not mistaken, you were an advisor to McCain's camp.
You were an advisor to a couple other people, right, if I'm not mistaken.McCain, Dole.McCain, Dole, some of these other guys.You've been around.So are you someone that's supportive of President Trump right now going against Kamala?Yeah.
So you're not, the Bushes are not fans of Trump.They haven't been since he made the comments that he made.He's not somebody that is liked by the Bushes.
And the way he went after Jeb, that's like the last time you heard anything good from Bushes towards Trump.
Look, President George W. Bush doesn't have to like Trump.He doesn't have to campaign for him.But there are hundreds of other Republicans he could be out there helping.Interesting.And he doesn't, he isn't out there doing it.
And why do you think that is?I have no idea. But I wish he's got the ability to raise a lot of money.And he's a former president of the United States.Do you have any reasons why you think he does that?
Speculations.I think probably the reason is that he'll be asked about President Trump.And I think there's ways to do that without by, you know, you don't have to answer that question.Just saying, look, I'm out here to help.
I'm out here to help Ken Calvert get elected to Congress in Riverside County.
Is that part of his duty, you think?Like when he ran, did other previous presidents help him out? I wonder, can you pull up which?
Here's what I'll say, is that President George W. Bush got elected because Republicans all over the country helped him.
And everything good that happened to him happened because Republicans all over the country, no matter how they felt about his politics, helped him. And I go back to Richard Nixon.
Throughout his career, he campaigned for Republicans, whether liberal, moderate, conservative, left-wing, right-wing, whatever.He campaigned for Jacob Javits, who was a liberal Republican.
He campaigned for Barry Goldwater, who was a right-wing Republican.He campaigned for Republicans all over the country. And so if you're part of the party, and you owe your livelihood to him, and look, people say to me, are you a Trumper?
I say, look, I'm a Kachigian Republican.I believe in lower taxes.I believe in a strong national defense.I believe in anti-crime policies.I believe in a strong border.I believe in a strong foreign policy.
That makes me, that's the kind of Republican I am. So I think Nixon believed in that.I think Reagan believed in that.I think Trump basically believes in that.I can't defend every element of his personality.I don't have to.
But I believe those things as against Kamala Harris being a left-wing nut.
If she's a left-wing nut, you know, Arnold just came out saying he's endorsing her.Cheney's came out, they're endorsing her.Well, they're just angry at him.At Trump.
Yeah.Well, the Cheney's are.Liz is.
Because the comments made.
I guess, yeah.Yeah, I guess.
What do you think about Trump?
I think there's a lot of ways he could improve.I think he could have made this a landslide, not a big landslide, but he could have won this election very, very comfortably.
I think if he wins, it's narrowly, but I think he could have done it comfortably if he had changed a lot of things. But, you know, I'm not in the business anymore.Have you already voted or no?I voted.
If I had to give my, if I gave my advice, I mean, I know Susie, I knew Susie Wiles when she was Susie Summerall. and a campaign worker that worked for me and others in the 84 in the Reagan-Bush campaign, and I like her.
But if I called her up and gave her advice, she'd probably listen to me, but it wouldn't matter because she'd pass it on and he'd ignore it.
Last thing before we wrap up.Were you ever there?I once had Michael Reagan at an event I called it saving America doing the impossible July of 2009 where I was dressed as George Washington.
My wife was dressed as Lady Liberty and another one of my guys was guys was dressed as Lincoln. And he said, what would you like me to speak about?I said, just tell stories about your father.
And, you know, last time he's seeing him, he went to visit him and then he's leaving.He looks back, he forgot to hug him.And he looks back is, you know, he's gone like this and Michael comes, get out, gets out of the car and goes, hugs him and leave.
Did, were you with him at the last days when his memory and he was going through, you know, challenging times or not really?Uh, No.
Well, yes and no.OK, I can clear up one thing.People ask me, was he losing it in his last days?And I said, no.His brain was working perfectly at the end of his presidency. I met him in 1990, worked with him on some stuff in the 90 midterm elections.
His mind was working good.I helped him on his 1992 convention speech, and his brain was fine. But in 92, I did run into him at, I can't remember, it was a fundraising event, and it was the first time he didn't recognize me.
And that was two years before he declared his Alzheimer's.Two years after the end of his presidency?No, that was four years.
And you felt the major difference where he didn't recognize you?
That was the first time, four years after his presidency.That was the first time he I walked up to him, and he drew a blank.
What was the exchange like?
I just walked up to him, and normally, if I walked up to him, he'd have a big grin on his face and say, hello.Oh, hi, Ken.And I said, hello, Mr. President.Wow, great to see you, or something like that.And he had this blank on his mind.
which, you know, it's like, I've had that running into high school classmates that I haven't seen for 50 years, but that's a little different.But this was, I mean, he never didn't know who I was.
What was the gap between the last time?You said four years?No, it was two years.Got it. four years after the end of his presidency, two years of the last time he saw you.Yeah.
And was Nancy, did this happen accidentally or was it a scheduled thing that you came to the house and?
No, no, this was accidentally, but I mean, I mean, I didn't, it wasn't a shock thing.I mean, I, I, I walked up slowly to him.And did you try to explain yourself?
Like what was the occasion?
I just said, Oh, um, you know, I, I told him who I was and I put, put it in context.And then we started visiting a little bit and, And then, but I didn't, I tried not to make him feel uncomfortable.Let's put it that way.
What was Nancy like at that time, at the last days?
I didn't have any real contact with her that much.And so we, I, I didn't, you know, after the presidency, I didn't keep that much contact.I was so active with my other things.I was running political campaigns and I had my own business and,
I was running Governor Duke Majan's campaigns in California, I was helping with Attorney General campaigns, and I guess I should have stayed in better contact with Reagan.I should have visited with him more.It's funny, I didn't.
And he was not one to do phone calls. With Nixon, we talked on the phone all the time.We talked on the phone constantly.Reagan was not that kind of relationship.Reagan, we didn't talk on the phone.
Interesting.And with Nixon, did you speak to Nixon when Pat passed away?Did you have an interaction with him at that time or no?
No, that would have been awkward.He was devastated.
It's the only time I think I've seen him cry.
There's videos of him crying.He was sobbing, yes.
I've seen the videos, yes.You never spoke to him afterwards?
I was at the funeral, obviously.But did you guys ever have any exchange after the funeral or no?
Well, probably, I'm sure, because I was on the board of his library foundation, and we were still very close.
At that time, I was with him.And he was really, he felt a tremendous sense of loss, because he depended on Pat.She was a very strong woman. And she never did leave him or turn her back on him in any of the controversial things he was involved in.
She stuck with him and he leaned on her and depended on her.That's the voice of Billy Graham.
And this is, this is watching a man that's like watching a man that's strong in tears.It's like Trump crying.You know, it's, it's a, you know, it's a very tough thing to see what folks like that.Um, between the two, just a wild question.
Kirsten, what you'll say about this?If you have even have an opinion, some tells me you're not going to answer this.You're going to be very diplomatic about this answer, but I may be wrong.Who do you think was a better president, Nixon or Reagan?
They were two different presidents.
You started diplomatic with your answer.There's no answer to that question.They had two different times of history.They were the two leading Cold War presidents.Nixon set the groundwork for Reagan to be a great president.
Nixon set the groundwork for Reagan to be a great president.Then, indirectly, I take that as Nixon?
No, I'm just saying that they worked in, they were collaborators.
If there's no Nixon, is there a Reagan?
I don't think there's an answer.You can't answer that question.
Yeah. Did you ever spend time with the young Roger Stone back in the days, or no?Were you ever around Roger Stone?What was he like?
He was just as crazy and alone as he is today.Ridley!Ridley!Do you have a Roger Stone story?No.He was just always... No, I don't have any special stories about him.He was always a pain in the ass back then.
Was he?That's a picture of...
No, I know him back in the... Nixon days?Back in the early 70s.
Yeah, yeah.If Roger Stone's listening, every Roger Stone story, you gotta cut it by 80% and then cut half of that to 40%.
Okay, you're saying exaggeration is what you're saying. Well, you know, have you seen the recent movie about the president, Trump, that just came out, The Apprentice?I'm assuming you wouldn't see it.No, I haven't seen it.Roger Stone's in it.
It's actually very interesting how they paint him to be.I love Roger.
Super entertaining.No, I was just on his show, yeah.No, I love the guy.Look, the fun thing I've had I've been in politics since 1968.I've had a wonderful career.The personalities I've been with
It's just that I turned down Clint Eastwood to run his campaign for mayor.Clint Eastwood?Yeah, he called me up and wanted me to run his campaign for mayor.I turned him down.Why?Did he scare you?No, no, no.I didn't have time.
I said, I don't run mayoral campaigns.I'll get you somebody to do it for me.Did Arnold ever reach out or no?No, no.
No, I don't know why he didn't reach out.I think probably somebody told him I was more conservative than he was, but I have no idea.How was Duke Median?Oh, he was great.Wonderful man.You know, we had one of the biggest landslides in history. 1986.Just totally underestimated.
There needs to be a book written about it.I don't have.I should have written.I should write a book about it.Somebody needs to write a book.He had a great governorship.
had more integrity, probably the man of most integrity in politics that I've known.And... Respected?Totally.Was he a fighter?
Was he a tough guy?Tough guy, respected.Is he the highest ranking, he's the highest ranking Armenian, right, in politics?
Governor, I'm assuming, right?Yeah, yeah, yeah, ever.Right.Yeah, and we got him elected narrowly in 1982 and then got him reelected by massive landslide in 86. by 23%.
The chance of that happening today in California is not that high.There's a guy there, I don't know if you're a big fan of or not, this guy named Newsom, I don't know if you've heard of him. You're not a fan of it.Yeah.
Well, look it's been it's been great having you on Uh, we're gonna put the link, uh, well, I hope I haven't disappointed you.No, I'm I'm a I like stories That's what I like.I like stories.
I I'm fascinated by politics my parents I grew up in a weird family where one side They were communists.The other side, they were imperialists.And that was my introduction to politics.Once I thought, you know, your mom was a communist.
She was, she was part of the two day party.They were part of today party.Their Bible was the Karl Marx communist manifesto, which I read.And you had to kind of find out what that was all about.But now I see this game.It's a very interesting game.
Very, very interesting game.This political game.Very.And I learned politics and business when I started competing and I'm like, wait a minute. You guys flipped on me.You were nice to me.Now you're a son of a bitch.What happened to you?
Oh, because we're taking a market shot and you guys teamed up together.So this is all politics.No problem.Let's have some fun.And it was actually fun seeing what that was like.
So anytime I hear stories like the ones you're telling me right now, fascinated by, but I appreciate, by the way, do you know how this interview came out?Happened.Somebody on my neck reached out to me. And they said, uh, Rob, did you know the story?
They reached out to me.They said on Manect, Hey, you need to have him on.Ken's got to get on the podcast.I'm like, you gotta be kidding me.Yeah.Let me look into it.And then I'm like, Oh, wow.What an interesting story.
Let's figure out a way to get this working.And. Well, you need to meet her.She's a jar-big little Armenian girl.Oh, I gotta meet her if she's outside.And respect, that's the power of MNEC, by the way.
You have to respond back because people are paying for respond.That's why that app works so effectively.Yeah, well, she's a jar-big Armenian girl.I look forward to meeting her.Sir, it is a pleasure to meet you.
I really enjoyed this two hours with you.I gotta tell you, Good for you.You went two hours on a podcast.A lot of people can't do it.How old are you?How old are you?80 years old.80 years old.You did a two hour podcast.This is so impressive.
Hey, I'm going to go outside and tell them I kicked Patrick's butt.
By the way, no bathroom breaks, no edit, nothing.You've got to respect that.So, great to have you on.Absolute pleasure.
We'll have a cigar sometime.
I look forward to it.Take care, everybody.Bye-bye, bye-bye.One of the best decisions I ever made in my life was joining the U.S.Army.
When I served the 101st Airborne Division Air Assault, the level of pride of America being the greatest country in the world
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