Welcome to the Big Careers, Small Children podcast.My name is Farina Hefti.I believe that no one should have to choose between becoming a CEO and enjoying their young children.
For much too long, amazing people, like I'm sure you listening right now, have found themselves stuck on the career ladder when they have children.
And that leads to gender inequality in senior leadership, because those people don't progress to senior leadership. and the same stale, often male, middle class people leading our organisations.
We must change this together, and I hope that many of you listening right now will progress to the most senior leadership roles that you like, where you can make the decisions that make our world a better place.
Outside of the podcast, I am the CEO and founder of the social enterprise Leaders Plus.We exist to help working parents progress their careers to senior leadership in a way that works for you and for your families.
We have free events and resources on leadersplus.org where you can download helpful toolkits such as on returning from maternity leave, shared parental leave, securing a promotion, dealing with workload challenges or managing as a dual career couple.
We also have an award-winning fellowship community which is global for working parents who have big dreams for their careers but don't want to sacrifice their family.
You'll join an absolutely wonderful group of people, a very tight-knit supportive group of parents who have your back.
Together you'll explore what your career aspirations are and you'll get advice from senior leaders who are also working parents about how to achieve those aspirations.
You'll get new ideas to combine your hopes for your careers with your hope for your family and you are supported by people who are experiencing what you're experiencing yourself.
I'm really delighted that a larger majority of our fellows have made tangible changes following the programme, be that becoming more senior in their roles, working shorter hours, having a better flexible working arrangement.
They always impress me so much with the courage that they instil in each other to do what is right for them without apologising for having a family or apologising for wanting that top job. Details are on leadersplus.org forward slash fellowship.
In this week's podcast, I'm talking to Sally and Matt Hamm about how they combine two big careers and four young children, how they communicate with each other as a dual career couple, and what they've learned along the way.Enjoy the conversation.
A very warm welcome, Sally and Matt, delighted to have you on the podcast.Let's start with you introducing who you are, what you do for work and who is in your family, Sally.
So I'll start.For my day job, I'm an officer in the US Air Force, I'm a military aviator, and I'm an occupational medicine physician, which is a specialist in health in the workplace.
I've also kept a position at Harvard as a research collaborator working through a number of work health studies.These days, I'm also a creative.I'm on the creative team for a media production firm that specializes in science shows for children.
And so I think I had a friend describe it as there's a lot of passion projects as part of my work portfolio.I'll let Matt talk about what he does.
Interestingly, I'm also a occupational medicine physician and Sally and I, I think very well in the United States at least, have been the first couple to go through that simultaneously.
It's a relatively small field of medicine and one that I practice as well, albeit in a slightly different context than Sally did.
I had quite a few military years myself, but in more recent years I've been practicing privately, private institutions, doing some direct clinical care as well as overseeing various other divisions of projects for various client companies through my consultancy that I started, as well as existing organizations, healthcare and other industries as well.
Taking care of worker health, so things that are, say, dangerous about the job, that can hurt or do hurt,
the workers or of course the workers bringing to the job their health conditions that may impact the safety or effectiveness of them doing the job.
So it kind of goes in both directions and a really fun position to stand at the intersection of health and work, which for many of us are two of the biggest things in our lives, whether we think about it that way or not.
In addition, I'm also a full-time student going after some more degrees, always trying to learn and find that niche where it's fun and make a big impact, currently towards the business side, having a medical and public health background.
And also, I think Sally and I both do a bit of volunteering in the community through our religious and other organizations.
Wonderful.And who is in your family?
So living at home, there's Matt and I. and our four children, starting with Melody, who's nine, Amelia, who's six, Charlie, who just turned four, and Marianne is almost two.She's 22 months.
Wow.That's a very busy time, I can imagine.It was quite funny before we came on, we should tell the listeners that I said, Oh, I'm sorry for interviewing first thing.And he said, Well, actually, we've already been up so many hours.
So this is almost lunchtime for you, I'm sure.Can I I'll ask, so you're both occupational health physicians.Is that how you met or how do you come across each other?
I met at church actually just before beginning a lot of that training military medical school type stuff, early 20s in the Washington DC area, which for me was across the country and just to begin these programs.
And so I think I'd been living there for some time.Anyway, kind of connected through our church community and became good friends for years.Interestingly also,
not only were we kind of connected to that kind of community church level, but also in similar training tracks as well.
And so every once in a while, for example, in the operating room, you'd in the teaching hospital at the local university would run into each other and other things.And over several years, one thing led to the next.
And we started after being very good friends, started dating and got married and the rest is
No, I think interestingly, neither of us really planned on being in a busy dual career family.And that may have been why it took so long for us to think about dating each other because both of us had envisioned our own career being in the front.
And when we started to fall in love after years of being just good friends, we had to really think about, well, what would this look like?
how will we find a more balanced relationship and take on more of what we had just assumed that the spouse would be handling for us.
And so there had to be a whole lot of planning and intentionality of if this is going to happen, if we're going to really make a marriage and family
work together, how are we going to have to adjust our expectations and our plans to make sure that this can succeed?
That's fair that you mention that, Sally.And I was thinking about how perhaps inaccurately many young folks estimate the trials that they'll encounter in life.And in any domain work, I think some people have an accurate estimation.
But I'll tell you, I did not accurately foresee the demands of parenting numerous small kids.
That it's, I mean, it's hours a day in the morning, hours a day in the evening, and often throughout the day as well, you know, scheduling the doctor visits and, you know, taking calls from the teachers and setting up the activities and other things.
I guess I just kind of assumed that I remember being a kid, right?Like all the listeners. out there like, Oh, yeah, I remember being a kid.No, no, no, that was you when you were 16.
You remember when you when you relatively didn't require as much handholding and toilet help and things like that.But we're in the phase right now where like, all four children need toilet help on occasion.
And you just think like, well, this is so much more intense than I remember parenting in, say, for example, younger siblings or things.
And as you think about like, oh, I'm going to have a fast-paced career, going to be a physician or any other type of professional that I'm going to dedicate myself to significantly, perhaps some have even likened it unto being married to your job.
And then your offspring and things are more of a secondary
A mistress is how I've heard it phrased.
A mistress back at home.But my real wife is the hospital wife or whatever career setting you find yourself in.And not really being able to see that, say, from age 20 or whatever young.And that's when people get on these tracks, as Sally and I did.
And I think we a little bit foresaw, OK, kids are going to take some work.Profession is going to take some work.The long-term plan was always spouse will take care of that.So we find ourselves in
a different than anticipated situation, but actually spouse, I can't just take over everything category isn't just like a catch all excuse to just make up all the difference.Like that's going to have to be me.
And, you know, Sally, you had the same similar plan and strategy and shift that we perhaps had to adjust the tracks or the way of working or various other of our priorities and values professionally to accommodate our other priorities and values, which are the kids that the primary, at least initial, it's called a juvenile intention, didn't quite work out as life goes.
Well, and I think one of the other things that came with our specific situation was by the time we fell in love and decided to pair up, we both still had a significant commitment to the military.
We had signed up to let them pay for our medical training. And so neither of us had the option to say, OK, I'm just going to take a year off, or I'm just going to switch to part time.The military just didn't offer those tracks.
And even now, it's very rare, and they still don't offer it for physicians.And so we never had the option to say, OK, well, it's fine that this is who you were, but now we're going to make this compromise.
There's always been the understanding that, well, we are both committed to our jobs in a very legal sense. And both of us grew up with big families.
Both of us are the second of four children and really expected that to be part of our adult life, part of our overall fulfillment.Not that everyone has to, but for us, that's what we expected.And so
we have had to figure out both with a whole lot of planning at the beginning, but also with a lot of communication in the meantime of what does that look like when both of us have careers that can sometimes be really inflexible.
And how do we put more flexibility in there when we have the option to do so?
It sounds like you were both keen to have large families.Is that right?You didn't really question the idea of, or should we just stick to one?You said, oh yeah, let's have a bigger family.Is that right?
Well, it's interesting that you reference large as being more than one or two, but I guess because I have 20-something aunts and uncles, right? parents and we just have such a large extended family.My mom's the youngest of eight.
And you know, when we're sitting around at church, it's like the family that sits behind us has like eight or nine kids.
And they're expecting their next one.
You know, it's just when that's your frame of reference.Actually, our four kids seems like a modest number.But then when we, you know, from our families of origin and perhaps religious community,
But then when we reference it against, let's say, our professional peers who have, as you alluded to, often zero children, then perhaps they say, oh, four is a big number.And for your listeners, I don't know what big would mean.
But to us, four seems... Four's a lot.Well, it's overwhelming at times, but it's, I think, an average number.
But that is so true.It is so true.It is such a good challenge.That is frame.It's the frame of reference, isn't it?And yes, all my friends.I live in London and it's very expensive to have children in London.So yeah, all my friends have one or two.
I have three, which makes me a huge, we have a huge family in the eyes of my friends.
So you mentioned that there was a bit of a, almost a moment of shift in your thinking where you realize that there isn't someone else going to be who does the main bit of the caring and dealing with doctor's appointment.
We do have to share this because we both have big careers.What do you think is some of the biggest learning that you've taken after that moment of realization?
For me, that time is far more limited at this phase, given my values and desires.
You know, we can all recall a past time in life and perhaps a future time in life that was more available in terms of time and perhaps other resources.
You know, we have our moments in life where our financial resources are more or less available, our health as well, our emotional energy or dedication, but literally just the 24 hours in the day.
I recall years ago, I used to have time to like clip my fingernails any day that I wanted. Oh, my fingernails are getting long, I'm gonna go clip them.But then as the years go on, you realize, wait, I'm way too busy today to clip my fingernails.
At some point, I'll fit that in.
And you start adding it to your to-do list and filing it with your goal sheet.And it's like, wait, this is a one minute activity.
But even the little things, you find.
It's a humorous example, but a real example.But I think that just exemplifies the shift that you asked about for me.
given that I want to be satisfied and healthy and socially rewarded and financially stable and progressing professionally in a variety of different work-related and community activities that we're doing, and at home with the children and our marriage.
Each one of those things takes time, significant amount of time, and there's just not enough anymore.And being truly overburdened with
time requirement, I didn't quite encounter that, even though I think some areas of Britain and Europe, the doctor training is a little bit different.But in America, it's still pretty routine to work 16 hours a day, every day.
And so when that's kind of your norm, and I can survive that just fine, but then somehow now working far less, I would say even a normal humane amount, but then having to do the second job essentially, or parenting and other things.
for me is far more time taxing and finding strategies to deal with that I think was the kind of next direction that question would go is, well, being very intentional about what we do with our time.
So for example, do I really even prefer breakfast at the expense of this other activity that I also value, for example, or how much does physical exercise or calling my mother each week or these other things that you really have to grapple with
What are my values?What do I want?And how am I going to intentionally insert them into the 24 hours that I get each day?
I can really relate to the choices linked to values.And I don't have breakfast anymore because I value... Sorry, this is too much of an insight into my life, but I do value certain things.My kids do not do homework after they come from school.
Maybe I'm a failed parent as a result, but there's absolutely no way I can get them to do homework.So we do homework in the morning, but that means I can't have breakfast.I'm on there with the VIP. to make them do it.
So that's one thing, but then the level of your own energy and knowing that there is just not enough time to do everything physically, how do you deal with that?How do you not lose hope or how do you not get burnt out?
So I would say you always have to be kind to future you.I think a lot about giving gifts to future Sally.And one of the gifts that we give to future Matt and Sally is that we're in a place in life when finances are not as tight.
And so we can hire parent extenders.And that means teenagers to help with the yard.
That means that we have a tutor who picks up our oldest two students, our oldest two daughters from their elementary school, and works with them on their piano and homework.
Because by that time, we're just finishing up work, or maybe we're finished, but we're starting dinner and taking that last phone call, answering that last email.But essentially, she is a third parent, maybe not equivalent to us.
She's not keeping the same mental load in her head. but we have given ourselves liberal permission to say, I am not less of a parent if I let someone else help out with these things.
And so she helps out with bedtime, she helps out with bath time, all of those things.And I think every phase of our life, we've needed people as helpers and we've
been very fortunate that we've been able to just kind of use money, which many middle class or upper middle class people have the privilege of doing.
And you have to be a little more flexible if you don't have that privilege to expand the ability of things that we're able to do.
Yeah, I think that's definitely something I need to start considering.
Again, it's a real blessing to have someone like that in your life who you can rely on and also who is the one cracking the whip on your children's piano practice or whatever it may be.
Do you have something, Sally, that shifted in your mind, where you changed your mind about having four kids and a big career and lots of other commitments?
One of the things that has changed over the process is I had this image that it doesn't count if you're not making it look easy.It doesn't count that someone's going to judge you if you're struggling for it.And
By four kids, you just throw that out the window.Of course, you're struggling.Of course, it's hard.Of course, you can be honest about, okay, this is what I'm good at.This is what I'm capable of.And this is beyond that.
And so you can either just kind of wallow and drown in that, or you can say, well, if it really is my goal that my kids learn to play the piano, but my And maybe even my relationship with them can't handle me being the enforcer for the piano.
What other options do I have?And it's taken some trial and error to find what works in our schedules and what works in terms of personnel. I have had to humble myself a little bit that the goal is not to look like super mom all the time.
The goal is to have kids who are happy, who are balanced, who are learning, who are growing, who have parents who are available.To do that, you have to be able to grow.
And to grow, you have to be open to feedback about what's not working, including from yourself.And you say, well, we are not covering these bases.What would it take for us to cover these spaces.
And you have to be humble enough to say, if I'm not trying to be super mom, if I'm just trying to be mom, how do I make this work?
You got me thinking there in Brenna's question about a shift in the way that we think or frame the issue.And I just realized that my response and yours was about parenting. which perhaps reveals where our thoughts and priorities lie most frequently.
But I think the question actually did have a second part.It was potentially related to shifts in how we approach the workplace as well.And I didn't answer that at all.
I didn't hear it in yours either, but it just got me thinking, maybe that's telling something about me, but it didn't always used to be that way.And that is a shift, particularly with work.At least in America, a lot of the
let's say leadership positions where you make the biggest impact and through organizations and executing policy and affecting operations of different organizations.
Those jobs, at least traditionally, were ones that I would see people put on a necktie and head out at 8am every morning.
And it's your, what we call Monday through Friday, nine to five, you know, it's your, your standard business type executive position, and you're managing the division.And
You literally have to be in the building for eight or ten or however many hours per day and it's quite rigid in that regard.
I've realized that what we've actually been seeking and there's been a shift in society as well, not just us, partially on the account of parenting but other factors, that a lot of these, I'm going to call them the really rewarding, desirable, impactful positions professionally are not that rigid anymore in terms of their work location or their work schedule or even
that they're all full-time and many are part-time.In fact, many of them are flexible enough that you can have those leadership roles and still take a few hours off in the middle of the day to take care of your kids.
Now, the flip side of that at least for me is that I'm working until late in the evening, you're still making that time up.
But I would rather have the flexibility any day to be able to attend to those things that come up, largely related to parenting and the children.The traditional job, perhaps that was a generation past, or maybe I just had a faulty mindset.
And in some societies, perhaps it still is that way, but I'm really happy that at least in the kind of medical organization leadership stuff that Sally and I find ourselves in,
you can do it quite flexibly and even part-time on occasion and still have those kind of next rung on the ladder.
Or in America, I guess we would say like totem pole Native American type reference where you're kind of moving along the progression, but not doing it in a way that is incompatible with parenting, which I had to discover.
Well, and I would say you are still using your parenting skills at work every day.The skills that you learn to really listen to a kid who's nonverbal, to hear what is the real issue underlying this tantrum or underlying this resistance or hesitation.
Those are life skills that you can use managing your staff, managing people that the skills for
balancing what people want to do and what keeps up motivation and what people have to do because they're the office chores and they keep everything running and they keep you in legal compliance and all of those things.
Balancing the things that are not fun to do, but somebody's got to do it and you've got to make sure that people feel respected and fair, even though they're receiving those chores.
All of those are skills that you are still using that time developing.It's not like you're throwing that time out the window.You are just using it in a different way.
I want you to picture a young couple in your church.Let's say that they're a hetero couple and that the woman is visibly pregnant and they come to you for advice of how to handle the day-to-day.
I imagine there are some things that you have in place like support or routines that you have in place today, which two children ago, you might not have had in place.Can you name one or two?
You might not have any now and just somehow successfully ring it, but if there is something that is really lifesaver and you wish you would have known at the time when you were expecting, could you name one or two?
I would say on a very practical level, baby wearing saved me. Matt deployed when our oldest was four months.
And so if there was going to be any cooking or any grocery shopping or anything else, I was the parent available and you can't tie up one arm carrying a car seat or carrying a baby.
And so having that baby just being used to, they're still bonding, you're still interacting with them, but you have two hands and you can also wash laundry. And you can also talk to your friends.
You can't drive, but you can do almost anything else while you are babywearing.And I've even sometimes, if something goes wrong at daycare, I've had to bring her to a meeting and just warn that baby through the meeting.
And so that meant that when baby number four came right in the middle of our master's training, and I still had tests and presentations to do. By then, I didn't even think about it.
I just put her on my body and brought her to class when she was eight days old because I knew that when I'm wearing her, I can do anything else, especially when they're itty bitty.
And so that would be just a very practical skill that it took a while to figure out, oh, this is a force multiplier, as we say in the military, that something that gives you a whole lot of resources back.
using other people as well.Sally described being super mom.And I think that for many high achievers, many listeners to your podcast, perhaps up until this point, they've been able to adequately self-manage all of their needs.
You get excellent grades, or I guess you would say scores or marks in the classes and Excel at the jobs and in society generally.
But there will come a time where I think you pass the point where you can do it all yourself, either at work, you would call that a managerial position, you're no longer cooking all the food, you are leading the people who are cooking the food or making the policy or enforcing the policy.
and your programs, but the same would be at home as well.I think a point at which the operational volume of a number of children to care for, whether that's diapers or homework or whatever it is, exceeds your capacity.
And for some people that may be a different, definitely is a different number than others based on intrinsic desire and capacity skill, but also other obligations for time and energy.And so when I think it was about kid number,
three or so that we began to realize we needed to rely extensively on outside help.I think when kid number three was in the oven, I was again overseas
with the military and grandparents, thank goodness for those extended family relationships, were able to come by for a year and take care of the kids while selling.
That was in the middle of the pandemic.
Similarly with other neighbors and community members, extended family members to, Hey, can you take a kid for a month?We've done that. on occasion.Realizing that that's not a point of personal failure, whereas your listeners are successful people.
Yes, of course, I'm getting promoted and had a recent baby.Congratulations.
There may come a time though that another promotion or another baby or two, maybe you cross the threshold where you don't have the time or the other resources to directly do it all.
I, at least personally, initially felt a little bit of shame in that.Like, I can't do it myself as Sally described of her story.
getting some help with many of those portions, whether it's, you know, delivering your food or cleaning your house or whatever it is that works for your situation would be okay.
And it doesn't necessarily- Parts of your work portfolio that you previously managed personally rather than delegated.
I no longer see as many patients, for example, at work as I used to.I focus on many of the other aspects that perhaps are not as gratifying as caring for a patient, but they're perhaps more things that I'm uniquely positioned to do.
And with parenting, am I uniquely positioned to change a diaper?Perhaps not.Would there be good parent bonding there?Yes.
But would there be even better parent bonding if I were to read them a story and have the nanny change a diaper or something, if situations allow?So that's probably the biggest challenge for me to overcome is giving up some of that responsibility.
this point around operational capacity, the name you give that, it sounds so military-like and yet it really is changing my view of it because it means it's an operational capacity.
It's not about you failing, it is just there is a limit and you have to change something if that capacity is reached.
What he was talking about reminded me that there's a really critical shift that I went through, and it was right around the approach of kid number two.Again, I was used to, as Matt described, being very competent, being very accomplished.
I had managed solo parenting while he was deployed for quite a bit, about half of Melody's first year.And I had to do a shift about how I communicated with Matt to bring him back in
to the parenting role, that he had been completely on the other side of the world.And so to recognize I was not his parent, I was not his boss, I was not in charge of him, even though I had all of this, we call it mental load.
And we talk a lot, you've talked a lot on this podcast about women carrying the mental load and having the partner share the mental load.
But there is a process to get there and that process doesn't involve unexpressed expectations or premeditated resentments.That's a quote I heard earlier this week.
And it's so true that you have to learn how to say, okay, this is all that's going on in my head in terms of managing it.And this is their joint responsibility. do we rebalance this?And with every kid, we've had to rebalance.
When kid number two came, we had to rebalance because kid number two was very demanding and brand new.And kid number one says, Wait, I want attention and love too.And that was really when there was a huge shift in terms of
Matt became the go-to parent for kid number one, whereas he'd been more of the support parent before.
And I think with each kid and with each kid's stage, we've had to have a lot of openness and communication in terms of, Oh, wait, this load is getting overwhelming.Can we balance it back?
And when you have four, you can't just say, Oh, I'm breastfeeding.That's the only thing I'm doing right now. If you're taking one kid, you still maybe need to bring the other with you when you go to the bathroom.
Or maybe if this one kid is small enough to carry, you can be reading a book to the other one.Or you can be at least encouraging them to brush their teeth, even if you're not wrestling them to brush their teeth.
And as a marriage, we've had to grow through the process of learning to give each other that direction of, I need help, or, hey, I'm feeling a little imbalanced here.
I'm feeling like I'm doing too much, or what do we need here to get us back into balance so that our needs are being met and neither of us are drowning.
I'm just really interested in something there, Sally, if I may pick up.
It sounds like you're communicating an unbelievable amount, but what have you learned about making that communication work, given that it's probably quite noisy every time you're together in the house?
How do you make sure that you do talk, and especially when things hit the fan, when everything's going wrong, where both of you have a big commitment at work and there's a sick child?What have you learned about communicating around these moments?
Are you like everyone else in that it's not really working all the time?
The best thing we do is that we have multiple channels of communication constantly on all topics.So there might be an email thread on scheduling a babysitter or there will be a text message
thread on an insurance approval request or there will be a voice phone call or a paper note.And we have a shared calendar, for example, and so our, I call it the secretary, manages the life because all the details are in the calendar.
They're sure as heck not in my brain. using these other external resources to communicate with each other and all of them simultaneously on all topics, all facets of life has been really critical.
You're right, because you can't just like, oh, let me grab some tea and crackers and I'm going to sit here comfortably in front of the fire and chat with my spouse.
We don't have, we haven't had that time in a decade and we probably won't for another decade.
Or rather when it happens, it's unexpected. and it's stolen.
So I think having other ways of communicating, including all forms of written and other technologies have been absolutely indispensable to stay on track with one another because we don't really have independent lanes aside from perhaps breastfeeding and some other things that are uniquely qualified for just one of us.
Many of the things we do share and we pass them back and forth constantly and it's a huge mental load, you're right.
So I would say one of the other things that our unique background has equipped us to do with that is that we're both aviators.That's part of our military training.Not every military doctor does it, but we've really been privileged to do that.
And when you are in a fighter jet or a helicopter or something like that, you don't have time to say, oh, by the way, I think your altitude might be a little bit off.We might be about to hit that mountain.You say, pull up.And so both of us
are comfortable with being very directive when necessary.And then when the pot is not boiling over, when, you know, the mess is stabilized, then you can give a little more context, then you can put a little more emotional buffering in there.
But both of us, and this may be a little bit from our medical backgrounds too, that we have, there are some words that if someone says stop, you don't kind of chatter about, well, maybe we don't need to.The word stop means stop.
And the word, hold on, maybe you don't need to means there's a little more buffer in between there.
And so being able to accept that direct communication, which is not standard, how Americans talk to friends and spouses and things like that, but how in critical situations, if you're in a surgery or if you're in aviation, You're very clear.
I have the airplane.You have the airplane.I have the airplane.I have the baby.You have the baby.I'll take care of this.You'll take care of the person at the door or whatever it is.That toolkit of communication has been really helpful for us.
Thank you so much for sharing.We're coming towards the end of our podcast and I'm really interested in, you're both high achievers, like you said.US academic system is very competitive and you are in elite academic institutions.
You're also in very selective field medicine and have four children.What have you learned about carving out space for you to pursue excellence in the intellectual field or excellence in your leadership career?
I think it's been saying no to a lot of things.
I remember it was about seven years ago when we began, you know, kid number two is coming and we're beginning to get overwhelmed with extra work responsibilities and, oh, there's a wonderful position for your advancement and, you know, career development and things.
Saying no, I guess when you're more junior, even the most high achievers aren't quite saturated by offers.
But I will say, at least in our experience, and it seems to ring true universally, that the more proven and developed that you are professionally or otherwise, the more opportunities we'll present to you to improve that could be in your neighborhood, at your library, and not even professionally.
hey, we need a board member for the orphanage, you know, whatever it is, but it's going to take considerable time and energy and investment.
So what do you say yes to when you have in my position, it's quite literally every day, somebody is asking for a big commitment to take on a new position and lead an initiative and this thing.And it's, I don't want to say no to the children.
maybe the diaper wiping and maybe the tooth brushing, but other aspects of it.I want to be there for my spouse.I want to be there for these other pre-existing commitments and things that mean the most to me.
So being very deliberate about defining who am I and what do I want and what am I going to say no to and how does that reflect who I really am and what direction we're really going.
And I think the other side of that is knowing that sometimes you won't be expecting the opportunities where saying yes can really launch your career and can launch your opportunities.
And so if you can have the capacity and that capacity includes the emotional bank account with your spouse, where you can say this really incredible thing just came up. would it be possible for you to support me in this?
And what would it look like if I were to dive into this thing that we weren't planning for?
And so recognizing that you have to be very intentional about which of those you do, but that when they come up, being ready, having the willingness to say, okay, we'll bring in extra support during that time, or maybe we'll have to sacrifice something else to make it work.
But Yes, I want you to be able to jump at opportunities when really great ones come up.
Wonderful.And we finish each podcast episode with an invitation to share one or two practical things that you felt were really helpful to you that the listeners could try out that should take a maximum of five minutes to try out.
So I was wondering, I know I'm putting you on the spot, so if nothing comes to mind, that is fine.But I was wondering if you had a small challenge that our listeners could try out.
really prioritize sleep.As a doctor, I can't emphasize this enough that if you're listening to this podcast, you are not on the factory floor making widgets.
You are being valued for your brain and that means your creativity and your accuracy and your ability to think through a problem and all of those things are degraded when you are not getting enough sleep.
And so if you have small children, that means getting creative.Maybe that means going to bed really early, or maybe that means shifting your first morning meeting.
But the more you can make sure that you're getting healthy sleep, the more you can bring really the best of what you personally have to offer to your work and your other passion projects and to your family.
Well said.Did you want to add something, Matt?
From my perspective, one thing we haven't mentioned at all, I think that is critical is perspective and patience.I remember at our phase, we have, this is the young child's decade, I'm gonna call it.But a decade ago, we were without children yet.
And a decade from now, they'll begin to, the older children begin to go off to school or wherever else they go.And a decade after that, we'll be empty nesters.
viewing life I think from that perspective to just really zoom out for a minute and say, wow, I want everything and all the weight of the world is on my shoulders and I can't keep up and my desires and my capacities just aren't meeting my professional timeline or goals for myself or requirements or parenting or other things.
for personal health and relationships and societal development.Or you could say, hey, I haven't truly just had a good time in recreation for weeks.It may be very challenging, but please take heart that there is a season in life for that.
And just as the season in life before having young kids was quite different than having kids, perhaps a very abrupt transition decade to decade,
This following decade or two or three will be yet again so different and there will be, at least in our lives, plenty of time for fancy vacations and exotic cruises.
Or just having more of an adult social life.
Personal leisure and hobbies and things.But if I, not that you have to, but if I want to prioritize in this decade, and a decade is a long time,
If I want to prioritize having good kids, strong family, and a advancing, demanding, rewarding career now and in the future, then perhaps the other things that I used to and will again appreciate in life, like hobbies and recreation and personal fitness and other things, finances, whatever your goals are, will come and have been there, but this is not that season in life.
What a beautiful final word.Thank you so much, Sally and Matt.You have been so full of wisdom and I'm really grateful to have had the chance to talk to you.
There might not be, but is there anywhere where you would like to send our listeners to find out more about the things you talked about?
I think we went all over the place.So if they want to find us on LinkedIn, we have more specific references for those things.If they want to dig a little bit deeper into any of those particular questions or struggles.
If people want to dig deeper and want to know more of the nitty gritty details, find us on LinkedIn.We have a not small cadre of people that we've mentored as they've come up paths behind us and met people who've mentored us.
And so we'd be happy to connect them with people who might be more helpful if we're the wrong ones.
Thank you so much.We could have talked for much, much longer, but as in the spirit of this podcast, I actually today have a hard deadline because my partner is in central London and it's my turn to pick up the kids from school.
But I would have liked to talk to you longer, but it's been a real absolute pleasure and I've been very inspired by you.So I will carry some of the thoughts with me.
I really love that point about perspective and there are a lot of other points as well.So thank you both.It's been a real pleasure.
Thank you.For us as well.Thank you, Brenna.And thanks for all the work that you're doing.It's super important.It doesn't get enough praise.
Oh, that's very kind of you.I've certainly referred a lot of people to listen to your podcast and to get on your website and said, wait, there's a community of people trying to make this balance.
Wow.Well, that's very kind.Well, hopefully it's useful to people.So thank you for sharing your story and your insights.Yeah.And let's stay in touch in some shape or form.We never know.Things might cross again.So yeah.
Look forward to it.Absolutely.
All the best.Take care.Take care.Bye bye.I really appreciate you listening.Thank you so much.And I always love to hear from our listeners.
If you want to connect with me on LinkedIn, just go to Ferina Hefti and I'd be delighted to hear your feedback and your suggestions or just have you say hi.
Likewise, if you do feel passionately about gender equality and you want to support a female-led podcast, then please do leave a review and share it with a friend.
Just because, at the moment, podcasting is still a very, very male-dominated environment.Most of the top-charging podcasts are led by men.
I really love all the people who've joined from the podcast our fellowship program and if you want to do the same then please head over to leadersplus.org forward slash fellowship in order to get access to a community of support to help you combine an ambitious career with young children together with people who have your back.
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