From NBI Studios, this is Truth and Justice, a crowdsourced investigation in real time.I'm Bob Roth.
Ahoy friends, thank you for tuning in to Truth and Justice.You are listening to the Friday follow-up for Season 15, Episode 18, Dakari Lariat.
This week we took a detour from the murder of Demario Lowe's and heard the maddening story of Dakari Lariat and his interactions with the Michigan State Police in the city of Benton Harbor.
We have a lot to discuss this week and Bobjent and I are here to discuss it all.But before we get into that, I do know that we have a few housekeeping things we need to tidy up.
One for sure.You guys remember last week when I was like, I'm going down to Texas and I'm going to see Ed and we're going to, we're going to film a docuseries that's going to be coming out.Good news.I did go to Texas.
The picture of Ed with this grandchild is amazing by the way.
Oh dude.So I, I, I land on Thursday evening and Ed, he'd text me early in the day.He's like, are you coming?And I, Bob, and I was like, yeah.And he said, well, we'll pick you up when you get here.
So I got there, I text him, I'm like, I'm on my way to the airport, or I'm on my way to the hotel and be checked in.He's like, I'm on my way, I'm gonna come pick you up.I smoked ribs.That's all, that's great.Yeah.
So I get picked up by Ed, got to go to their new house.Their new house is just beautiful.Kyra was there, she's staying with him right now.And Kyra's baby crew, when I walked in, I'm like, baby Bob!Remember, I was named baby Bob. I forgot about that.
Yeah.So I got to see Ed and Kim and Kyra and little crew.And it was just, it was just so nice just walking.And it was so nice for me to like sit, you know, I got there and there's all the usual like, Oh, it's so good to see you type stuff.Right.
And then Ed pulls out, they had, you know, they kept it warm for me on the stove.Of course, Ed doesn't just smoke ribs.Ed had ribs and chicken and links and some baked beans and some bread.There was all this is in there where I ate so much.
I'm so hungry.Dude, the ribs, the ribs in the pan, right?So he's got, he's got my cut up into individual bones in the pan, baby back ribs.And the first one I went to grab, I grabbed the bone and picked it up and the bone just came out.
But anyway, we ate and chatted, and the minute Ed walked in that door, he had that baby in his arms, and he's holding the baby, and he's burping the baby, and he's playing with the baby for two hours.
The only time that baby left Ed's lap was when I insisted that I needed to hold baby Bob. And do you know what baby Bob did when, when uncle Bob held him?No, he just kept going and reaching back for Ed the whole time.He wanted the whole time.
So Ed would, yeah.So if there's either not on the fan page, you'd look up, I posted a picture of Ed just sitting there holding the baby, but man, it was.
So, yeah, we got, we got through the discussion about, you know, what's going on with this, with this documentary and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, and all this different stuff that's going on.
And then we just got to, you know, Kim went to bed and Ed and I just sat up chatting and it was just like, You know, just sitting there, like, just talking to an old friend for an hour.It was just, I don't know, it was just surreal to me.
I just had that moment when I was sitting there, you know, and we're just shooting the shit about everything from football to, I mean, just normal people stuff.
And it was just, I don't know, it was just really, it just, I had that moment where it hit me where like, I'm just sitting here talking to my friend and it was, it was, it was, it was amazing.That's so good.And then everything went to shit.
So I'm not getting any details right now, but this company, the production company that was putting together this series seemed to do a real good job of keeping me and Ed and Allison apart.
Like, so we didn't, we weren't really communicating with, and they were telling us what the other was doing.Right.So like, Oh yeah, Alison's doing this.Alison's good with this.She's doing this.And Ed's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Well, I mean, they didn't count on Ed picking me up that night.Cause so they flew me in.I got in at seven o'clock at night and I was supposed to interview the next morning and then fly right back.And that was it.
Alison, they didn't fly her in overnight.They flew her in like that day in and out.
and then they adjusted the schedule and moved it around so that Allison was in the morning and then they told me not to be there to set until 1.45 and then Ed wasn't going to be to set until 5.15 after, so I wouldn't get there until Allison was at the airport, Ed wouldn't get there until I was at the airport, so no one would run into each other.
Well, based on some of the stuff Ed told me at dinner, I was like, something's not fucking right here. And then the producers, when I was texting them about stuff, they were being real shady with me about what was going on.
So basically, they told me to be there at 1.45, I said, fuck that, and I got in my own Uber and I went there at noon, because I thought, I'm going to catch Allison, why she's there.
Allison and I had a conversation, I sat and did an interview, and she's already a little bit upset about some of the stuff I shared with her in that conversation. I go to the airport after my interview and my interview was weird.
Like everything about this was like, something's odd here.We get to the airport and Allison's flight and my flight were both delayed.Like she was supposed to be gone before I got to the airport.
And then I was supposed to be, well, it turns out both of our flights got delayed till 8 30 at night.So we get there, she texts me, she's like, Hey, my flight's delayed.You want to meet for a drink?We sit down and have a drink.
And, and all I'll share right now is
As we sat down and discussed and we got to fully communicate what was told to me, what was told to her, what Ed told me what was going on, Allison got on her phone, called Kim, and told her, get Ed, get out of there right now.Do not sign anything.
Do not sign a release.Walk out.And Kim's like,
well what about she's like walk out now and Ed and Kim walked out there's a bunch of shit going on with it right now it seems it doesn't seem as though the episode about Ed will air and I certainly hope based on what we learned that the entire series doesn't air if they're pulling the same kind of shit with everybody else which kind of seems like it's lean that way because they sure did spend a lot of money to get us down there and lucky for us the producer was a dumbass and
When I filmed the documentary, Janet, you've been in TV, you've been in television.What's the first thing you get taken care of before you start doing an interview with somebody?
Sign a release.Right.These folks, after the interview, oh, that was part of it too, while Janet and I were talking, they're texting us like, hey, will you guys sign these releases?Will you do a docu-sign this release?Will you do this?
And I'm like, I'll look at it tomorrow.I'm going to do it.They're like, no, we need this right now.We need this right now.And we knew Ed was on his way there to do the interview. And we're like, what the fuck is happening?Why are they so insistent?
And I'm like, you didn't sign?Nope.Me neither.Nope.So we, I sent a very colorful text message back to the producer about why I wouldn't be signing their release.But yeah, so they put a whole lot into this to get enough.
As far as I know, there's nothing, no footage that they can use out of the whole thing.They're a bunch of snakes.They had a dark ulterior motive, but
They covered a real nice visit with you and Ed.
So they can go fuck themselves.That's the first time I think I've heard Janet drop the F-bomb on the air.Yeah.I've heard her do it personally.
That is exactly right.So yeah, they funded me to fly down, fly all the way to Texas to hang out with my buddy for a couple hours.
To have some meat fall off the bone.
Some of the best words don't go back to that.I'm so hungry actually I'm gonna say it right now the best ribs.I've ever had in my life.
Oh so good Yeah, so that's going on House key any other housekeeping beyond that or that's what's not going on any other housekeeping beyond that is, like I said, we've got this week's episode, we're covering the state's closing arguments.
Next week is the defense closing arguments.We're off the week after that.
And I already... I'm going to wait to announce it to everybody later, but I did tell the pregame, we've got something very different and special that we're going to be doing after that with Ed's case, or Jody's case, something that I haven't done before.
And again, I have, not surprisingly, the offer still stands of anybody from the
From the guilty camp would like to come on the show I've been we haven't I don't think we've had anybody do this since what Melgar said season six Yeah, that sounds right.Yeah, it's been a long time.
I think since somebody Was open to actually coming on the air and having a discussion about why they think our subject is guilty as opposed to innocent But again, I just want to put out there.
That's probably last time I'll bring it up because if you're not gonna do it, you're not gonna do it but that that invite is open, I would love to be able to have that discussion on the air.
And we are looking for some witnesses we're trying to contact.So, you know, depending on who we get a hold of, we're coming up into the holidays, going to be getting to, we're going to be starting to wrapping the season up for now.
We do have a few more housekeeping things that you are not aware of apparently.
Well, we just want a little clarification and see if you can follow this because Valeria is right.This might get a little confusing.So Valeria says, sorry, not quite a question for the follow up.
I said, yes, it is because it's housekeeping and we all need to keep in mind when we are recording these episodes together because we love our chat and we want our folks with us live.
To help those of us outside the U.S., just wanted to confirm that in the U.S., clocks will go back next weekend, right?
So for example, for listeners in Europe, where the clocks went back last weekend, the follow-up live will be an hour earlier than usual.In the U.K., it will start at midnight rather than 1 a.m.We all need to think about changing our clocks.
So maybe we'll just be extra diligent about reminding everyone when we are going to be on and
Listen, this is what I like to do.
Try not to give every time zone, even though it's tempting.
I like to put the post out to the patrons that says that we are going to start pregame at 7 p.m.Eastern time, and I feel like they can do the math.But yeah, that is correct.
On this Saturday, so the day after this airs, we're going to be, the clocks are going to be falling back an hour here in the United States.
Nick had just a couple document questions, just getting to the end of the case file.Just wondering if Rolando Ware's testimony isn't covered on the air, can it be posted?
Will post-conviction appeals be covered so everyone knows what's been litigated?Are there transcripts for this season that listeners can reference for discussions in the group?
Yeah, so as far as Rolanda Ware's testimony, yes, I think what we're going to do is, so we've got like the individual transcript testimonies from everybody that we've covered so far up on the website.
There are a few random ones, like I mentioned, as Nick mentioned, like Rolanda Ware's.
There's a guy named James Walker who essentially testified that, you know, the day of the robbery, he was at the store and two guys walked up to him and we walked out of the store.They said, damn.
And so he thought maybe they were going to rob their car. You know, there's like some little stuff like that that we haven't covered.
So what I think what I'm going to do is when we wrap up the trial, I'm going to publish the full transcripts in their entirety as volumes.So like the way we got them.We broke them down into the original testimony, but there's actually five volumes.
Each volume is a day of trial.So we're just going to put out volume one, volume two, volume three, volume four, volume five.That's everything.That's the entire trial.
So everybody can go and literally read through from beginning to end if they want to. So that'll happen after that's done.As far as the post-conviction stuff, I'll look through it and see.I wasn't planning on it.
We'd never have in the past gone through and covered appeals that have happened up to this point.So I don't know.We might look through some of that stuff, but I don't know if we will or not.
Was there any other question to that other than the documents being posted?
Transcripts for the season.Yeah, I think that's essentially you covered it transcripts for the season that listeners can Reference for discussion like transcripts from there are episodes.
I guess they should be are they not on or maybe I know the transcription team is doing them.
Yeah I don't know.Yeah, Nick.Sorry if we're not clear I don't know if you're in the chat, but let us know if we're representing you, right?That's it.Just the third one is are there transcripts for this season that listeners can reference?
so, I don't know if that's transcripts of like additional court stuff or
One more thing, yeah, in the live chat, J-Mac asking, tell me where to find this fan page.Yeah, J-Mac, so it's on, just go to Facebook and look up the Official Truth and Justice Podcast fan page.
That's what it's called, the Official Truth and Justice Podcast fan page.And that's where, like, the overwhelming majority, I think there's 15,000 people in there, is where the overwhelming majority of the case discussion happens.
I know we're not focusing in on Jody so much this week, but there are folks who are wanting to revisit how to not just email and be in touch with Jody, but also contribute to things like various concessions, things that Jody might need help purchasing, stuff like that.
I think that's all done through J-PAY.So the J-PAY is where you go for sure to send Jody emails.And there's a function through J-PAY where you can put money in their commissary and things like that.I think that's where it's happening.
I don't know specifically about that because as a rule, I don't pay my subjects that I'm working on.I work for free, but I don't pay people that we're interviewing, that we're doing subjects on, just as kind of a journalistic stand.
So I'm not real sure about that.But There are certainly people in the chat that talk to, you know, Teresa Ferguson comes to mind.She's one, I think, that is in pretty constant communication with Jodi.
Yeah, I think.Yeah.And then Susan, too.Yeah.Yeah.So let's let's direct people to that that famous Facebook fan page that we were just talking about.And we'll continue to some listeners will make that information available for everyone.
So I guess let's get into Dakari.
Yeah, so first things first Did I think Janet you said did you watch the full 54 minute video?Yeah, I did Zach.Did you watch it?I did not.Okay, so I'll say this up front when I watch it.
It wasn't like when you you got to step back and look at what what Jakari was going through and There's there's a lot of a Dakari Dakari what he was going through and really look at what was happening there and where this stop was not okay.
I will say I was surprised when I watched the full 54-minute video that it wasn't as bad as I thought it was.It wasn't as obvious as I thought it was.I don't know.Jana, what were your thoughts when you watched the whole video?
You know, they're very polite. I don't know that for me that translates, I mean, I'm certainly glad it wasn't violent.I'm certainly glad that, you know, they weren't humiliating Dakari.But I, there was a lot of condescension there.
And so I, and I don't think Dakari ever represented it as being, you know, violent or anything like that. But there are, you know, the kind of gasp moments are, you know, it's not the whole thing is not that.That is true, for sure.
And there were listeners who noted that too, you know, even just in the bit that they checked out, even if they didn't watch the whole video.It may appear to us
differently than it felt like to be him in that situation, feeling very, very vulnerable and living in the world that he lives in.And, you know, I'm not saying like, oh, it's some totally other world.
But as he explained in his interview, like, he felt like he, you know, it's like, I don't know what's going to happen here.I don't know what's going to happen here.Anything's possible.
Well, this is how it struck me when I watched it.Like, Dakari seemed, like, very scared when they pulled up.And I think that is a result of a black man living and being policed in America, like, just in general.Like, you could tell he's nervous.
when they pull up, you could tell that he's obviously very well educated in his rights.There are several times they're asking him things and he's like, I don't, you know, they're asking, what medication are you on?
He's like, I'm keeping my medication private.I'm not telling you that.But he seems very nervous at first, which I think is because I don't think he did anything wrong.Somebody asked in the chat, like I saw a body cam, but is there a dash cam footage?
I think that was, didn't Dakari talk about that on the show that like they wouldn't give him the dash cam footage.They said it wasn't working when they said they had video of him supposedly running the stoplights.
I thought he said he did have it and that he never he could still never see a second light even in the video and in the video you Stop at the second light or at the light and make a turn but he comes to a full stop and makes the turn right did you because I only looked at the 54 minute video that was on where the was the dash cam videos up there and
The only, well there is, yeah, there is dash cam video of them making fun of his name, which was not great.
Right, well that was in the body cam footage even, like when they pull up, they're like, Dakari, Daiquiri, I've always been drinking Daiquiris, like they said that when they're getting out of the car.
But you're seeing, but you're also seeing them both in the car for part of that.
Like how is that body cam footage?That must be dash cam, right?
Oh, maybe it was, I thought it was all from the one body cam, but so this is what I see from it, it was, According to Dakari, and there's no proof otherwise, and I don't think they charged him with this, he never ran any stop.
The stop wasn't legit to begin with.I think they saw a nice car driving through Benton Harbor and they just stopped it, thinking they could get something out of it.The way they misrepresented, the one cop misrepresented
What what dakari said about drinking pissed me off immediately So he says, you know dakari is like trying to like he knows his rights.
He doesn't have to answer questions He doesn't have to do any of this And so they're asking him and you can tell that it looked to me like dakari's having like an internal struggle Like what I want to do is say i'm not answering questions, but at the same time I don't want you to beat me up or take me to jail or do whatever.
So they're saying, how much have you had to drink?And he doesn't answer.And he's like, well, have you had any drinks?Have you had any drinks?How long has it been since your last drink?He still doesn't answer.
And then the cop says, has it been over two hours?And Dakari says, Yeah.So then he pulls him out of the car and he's like, as the conversation goes on, he starts saying, are you under the influence or whatever?
And Dakari said, I haven't had any alcohol.I haven't had any, none.And then he pulls him out and he goes, well, you changed your story.You told me that you drank two hours ago and now you're saying you didn't drink at all.But he never said that.
He never said it to begin with.And he goes, well, I think that's suspicious. Then I see him, he gives them all these fields, and the cop is being very polite with him, maybe condescending, but polite.But he's giving them the field sobriety tests.
And I know a little bit about these because I actually sat through as a juror on a DUI trial, so I got to see the cops explain the science behind all of these different tests, the ones they were doing.
And I'm looking like he does forever, like, you know, keep your head still and follow my finger. And I'm like, you can see his eyes like he's tracking his fingers, moving back and forth.
And that was one of the things in the trial I was at was like, see how her eyes aren't actually following this and see how she's moving her head.He wasn't doing that.He was locked in head still following the following his fingers.
And then he's like, well, you're just not tracking.But like literally you can see in the video that he's tracking it just fine.And so he goes through, everything seems to be fine with his field sobriety test.
I don't see any indication for me that he seemed intoxicated in any way, shape, or form whatsoever.And then especially once, then they come back in, it seemed like Dakari was like, okay, doing this, I'm going to go about my business.
And then they come back and they say, all right, well, we think that you're too intoxicated to drive and we're going to lock you up and you're going to go to detox and we're putting you in detox for six hours.Then he starts.
Then he's it seemed like then, like the fear of the situation went away and he started speaking freely.And if they thought he was intoxicated during that conversation, give me a fucking break.
He's just saying like, what are you talking about?I told you, you said two hours.I didn't say two hours.
No, from the beginning, from the jump, they're like, I smell something on your breath.I can smell it.I can smell it.I smell something fruity.But he's like, I smell alcohol.I smell that you have been drinking.And Dakar is like, I haven't.
There's no alcohol.There's no alcohol.
Yeah.And remember, his blood test came back zero.He had zero alcohol, zero drugs in his system.
But so then when he's sitting there and he's like having like a free-flowing conversation, he's like, what are you talking... I've told... No drugs, no alcohol.I am not intoxicated.I just drove from Cleveland.I'm fine.
Like, what are you talking about?And he's like, I need to... My friend has to get to work.I got to do this.Like, he's having a very
Like, for anybody to say this person is too impaired to drive, because they frame it as, well, we just got... And again, very politely frame it as, well, we just... It's for your safety.
It's our job to make sure we feel like you're too intoxicated to drive.We want you to be safe.That's what... To me, what it felt to me was that the officer who had the body cam on, which is the white guy, because the other guy was a black guy.
the the guy that had the it seemed like he was he was put out by the fact that Dakari didn't want to answer his questions.He was put out that that Dakari knew his rights and knew what he was doing and I think that pissed him off.
He didn't outwardly show but that because that's the only thing that makes sense to me like why are you doing this to this guy?
Like, you stopped him, you claimed that he, and you claimed you had it on tape, but we don't have a tape of him actually violating the law.Didn't get cited for it.
Then, after all that field sobriety test, I'm telling you, I haven't had a drop of alcohol.
And that's not, and any cop will know, because I've witnessed this at a million car accidents I've been at, there were drunk driving accidents when I was a fireman.They always say they had two.Right?
You know, when they say, I smell alcohol in your breath, they always say, oh, I had two drinks.I just had two drinks, it was an hour ago.That's what they always say.There's always, I had a couple drinks, whatever. he's saying, I had zero.I had zero.
Now, the one thing that, and I want to get into the questions too, I'm just going to give my like breakdown for seeing the whole thing, that, you know, Dakari said that the cops were rifling around through the car and you hear him say, I have a stash somewhere.
You hear somebody say drugs, I have a stash somewhere. When I listened to it, I heard that the first time I listened to it.And then I saw some comments where people were like, he's saying straws, straws.
And so after I read straws, now, every time I hear it, I hear him saying straws.You know, I have, I have a stash of straws somewhere, which is weird because you know, it's possible they were looking for what they were looking for was not drugs.
They were just looking for straws for a breathalyzer, but I never saw him pull out the breathalyzer kit and there not be straws in there.
I can't hear straws.I mean, I'm sure that that's just me, but I, I was trying, I mean, I, I just couldn't hear straws.I just kept hearing stash.
I was hearing it, but I think I was just, I was influenced by whatever.So I don't know if it was drugs or straws, but what I know is I have had the pleasure of taking a breathalyzer in a similar situation.
I didn't get detained where they, it was when I was on a boat.It's actually a funny story.
We used to be on the off duty podcast, but where they thought I was drunk and I wasn't in the, and like, there's a kit, there's like a box they bring out that has all the pieces to it. and then they connect the little straw to it.
So, but like, what I didn't see was them pull out the kit and be like, oh shit, there's no straws in there.He's just rifling around and he says, maybe drugs, maybe straws.And he says, I have a stash of them here somewhere.That whole thing was weird.
The other thing I thought was weird was they were doing that, but they never asked him if he would take a breathalyzer.
Like to me, the first thing that, you know, they did all the sobriety tests with me and then they said, would you be willing to take a breathalyzer?And I said, sure. and then they went and got the breathalyzer kit.
So the story of what he was looking for was straws, super odd.Doesn't ask him to take a breathalyzer, doesn't get the breathalyzer kit out, just starts searching every little nook and cranny of the car for straws for the breathalyzer.
But also like, you know, strange as, like risky as heck to have your cam, your body cam on and to essentially be admitting, like, I have a stash of drugs that I would plant in his car.
Like that's also very, you know, benefit of the doubt.
And you do hear somebody say right after that, you hear somebody say, he's not going to consent.Like he kind of says it under his breath.
Yes, he definitely, he definitely says. But the conversation that where that goes with Dakari, right, is that he's saying, like, they wanted to search my car.
Like his interpretation of that is he's not going to consent to me searching his car, which makes it impossible for me to plant anything in his car anyway.
That's like the takeaway that Dakari has versus, I guess, someone else could say if it was about a breathalyzer test, then he would be saying he's not going to consent to a breathalyzer anyway.
Yeah.I do know Dakari had emailed me last week and said that he did get...somebody did connect him and I think he was supposed to have a meeting with the governor.So that conversation was going to happen.
Zach, what were your thoughts before we get into questions?
A major reason I did not watch this video is I have seen it firsthand.I did not need to watch this video to understand what's going on in this video.As I've told listeners over and over and over again, I grew up with a black stepfather.
He's been my stepfather since I was four years old in this area.I've personally witnessed him harassed by police in this area. been in the vehicle when he's been harassed.
This is weird to say, and I cannot give everything away, but he's actually had a settled lawsuit against a local police department for harassment.I mean, it's systemic racism in this area is unbelievably out of hand.
So while I do not completely know what happened in that video, I've witnessed this.I've witnessed exactly what's going on.I've seen my brother harassed.I've seen my sister harassed.Like, I cannot continue to watch this over and over again.
It's too close to fucking home for me.
And I want to fight for these people.I want to fight for everybody, but this shit's hard, right?And that's why, like, I didn't not watch it because I was being lazy or because I didn't want to.I've fucking seen it.
I've seen it firsthand in this fucking area we're talking about. And it's heartbreaking.It's heartbreaking.He had to go through this, and I'm happy that he has had the ability to acquire the legal needs he's had.
And not everybody does, but it's just, it's heartbreaking to see this.
Yeah, and that was a big thing for me that I, you know, Dakari is okay, right?So he's got out of here.He didn't, you know, he had a night in jail and that was the end of it for him and he was able to pay for everything.
But like what we talked about on the podcast, There are so many other people that this happens to that don't have those resources and aren't able to.And so he's fighting for those people.
The license thing.I've seen the license thing.The license thing happened to my stepfather differently.They took his license, registration, insurance, brought him back his insurance and registration and just left and totally kept his ID.
Purposely or not, totally kept his ID.And he had to fight for it to get it back.
That's crazy, you know, so I've seen that's why I'm like this area is such a racial hotbed and it's such a problem that needs to be fixed, but it needs to be fixed at a grander level that We need to figure out what to do one thing of that I learned Because I when I was watching the video the cops kept telling him You have to come to the hospital and take a blood test and if you refuse we'll get a warrant But if you make us do that
You're going to lose your license and have to pay all these fines and get points on your license and stuff, which I was like, they're bullshit.
Like, why are they, you know, they're lying to him because they don't want to get a, because they have no probable cause to get a blood test.
And then I looked it up and they're. That's Michigan law.
That's Michigan law.Yeah.
So Michigan law is that it is an implied consent state, meaning that the way I understood it, if you, when you decide to drive on a Michigan road, you are consenting for, but you can, you can, you can decline a breath, a roadside breathalyzer test.
But if they want to do chemical tests or, or a blood draw, you have implied consent because you chose to drive on the road.You have to do it.If you choose, if you make them get a warrant, this is what's crazy.
If you make them get a warrant to do the blood draw, even if the blood draw comes back, like Dakaris zero, you still have your license suspended for a year.You get points on your license and you get fined. Figure that out.
And I don't know if other states are like that.I was dumbfounded reading that.Dumbfounded.
Like you don't have the right to say you have to have probable cause.You have to have a judge say you have probable cause before you can violate my rights and take my blood.Not in Michigan.
Yeah.Jeff, I just want to call out your comment.Jeff says, you know, I think he looks scared and anxious.His eyes were going crazy to the point where I wouldn't want to make that call on to release or detain.
I fully understand there's shitty policing going on in Benton Harbor.I think being a cop is one of the worst occupations in the country right now.I'm hoping they had public safety in mind.I don't know.Jeff, I hear you.
I mean, I think that's part of what's broken in all the tiny and giant ways it's broken.Like, What if you're scared because innocent people have been murdered by cops who are pulling people over?
And so you look sweaty and clammy and nervous, and now it's exacerbated because maybe you look like you're on something, and they're good cops who are just trying to da-da-da.Like, it's a mess, you know?It's a mess.
And that's why I preface this by saying, like, on its face, it seemed, because I will give the officers this.
They were, they were cordial when they were explaining the one officer, not the one that would have the body cam, but the other one that was like explaining everything to him, you know, on its face, it seemed like.
you know, they're doing their best.They said, we don't want to cost you any money by towing your car.So if you want to leave your car here, all that has to happen, you give your blood test.
If you're right and it's zero, then you're going to get out of here in six hours.Everything's fine.But when you back it up, why was he pulled over in the first place?
Why are they saying he failed the field sobriety test when I saw no person, you know, untrained, but no indication he was drunk?
And then when they were sitting... Again, I can't stress enough, if you watch it, once the field sobriety tests are over and they're just sitting there talking to him.And we've all been around drunk people.
If you're sitting there having that conversation with him and you're saying, well, I think they're too impaired to drive.That's bullshit.And that's what that, so it was like, they did it with a smile.
It could have been way worse, but at the same time, like the entire thing was in my opinion, it was, it was harassment.I think there's no, there's no explanation in my opinion. as to why they took him in.The idea is that it was public safety.
He was clearly not a threat to anybody.He was not a threat to drive anywhere.He was not impaired in any way, shape, or form, proven, by the way, by the blood test later.Like, that was insane.But we've been rambling on for a half hour.
We haven't got to questions yet.So we'll try to buzz through some of these questions.
Well, luckily, a lot of it I think we're we've sort of been dipping into as we've been talking about this, but and you mentioned that Dakari said that he has he there's some potential contact with the governor of Michigan.
Kerry says since this interview is a few weeks old, is there an update on the lawsuit?
I don't know that a lawsuit's been filed.Like I said, all I know is Dakari had forwarded me an email from someone in the state Senate, I think, or Congress, whoever, that had arranged a meeting with the governor.
Got it.Liz says, I have never heard of a drug test for marijuana taking two to three weeks to process.Can't most standard medical offices run that in a day or two tops, even before the extra weeks of delays?How did they expect that to be believed?
So the six hour detox time, they say that the hospital is able to do like a pro, I don't remember the term they used, but it's a preliminary test.
So what they're able to do is- Presumptive, I think maybe.
In that there's a post from Tracy who might answer this.
Yeah.So within that six hours, they're able to tell yay or nay for alcohol.And then it takes longer to get like for the drug test, like the full, like how many nanograms per milliliter of
THC or whatever's in the bloodstream, there's a lot more to it, but they can get that presumptive test pretty quick.
Tracy said, I'll just to augment that, Tracy says, having worked in a mental health slash probation program for 10 plus years and dealing with drug tests on a nearly daily basis, you can get a presumptive, qualitative, positive slash negative test result for THC instantly.
Confirmation tests, quantitative, take a few days. definitely not two to three weeks, and absolutely not months unless the lab messes up.I'm glad Dakari is pushing his case so hard.He is safely out of the Benton Harbor and state PD reach.
Hopefully, he's able to really make a change for the benefit of the residents.
Well, and also, they could have done a breathalyzer, a hospital breathalyzer, right away. whether he was drunk.And I know for a fact that there are screening tests for THC that you can get.
When I was on the fire department, we had a policy that any accident, you had to get a drug test immediately.And the chief had them.This is when I was...not when I was the chief.
The chief had them because at one point, I took out a garage door with the back of a ladder truck at one point on the way to a fire.Door closed too early and it clipped the back of the...
Imagine pulling back in the station after that if you put this fire out and the front garage door is just swinging there because I didn't realize it came down early and caught the back of the truck.
But anyway, the first thing I had to do was come to the test and it was like this mouth swab.It took five minutes. He came and like swabbed it in my mouth, they dip it in the thing, it's almost like a COVID test, you know, and it shows you yes or no.
And then if it shows positive, then you go get a blood test.So it seemed like they could have very quickly and easily determined if it was, because he was claiming zero.I didn't use any marijuana, I didn't use any alcohol, period.
So they should have been able to do that very quickly.
Well, and they pivoted very quickly when, you know, in the video, they pivot very quickly when he's like, yeah, I didn't, I haven't had any alcohol.They're like, but you have had marijuana.
And he's like, no, it's like, what are you?This isn't like a get fun guessing game where he's like, Hey, you got me.That's right.I have had marijuana.I was just waiting for you to say that I've had marijuana.
So Cherise says in the chat, and it's a good point too, she said, marijuana tests are difficult because marijuana stays in your system for a month.So you could have smoked pot a month ago and it would pop positive.
And thank God for Dakari, he's not a user of marijuana.So it was zero because that's the problem with it.And that was when they first legalized it here in Michigan, that was a big discussion among law enforcement is,
How do we tell if they're impaired?With alcohol, I can tell if you're drunk right now.But with a marijuana test, I can show you have marijuana in your system, but that could have been from you smoking three weeks ago.We have no idea how to tell.
And if that's the case, then they could take him to trial.And then the officers, if they tried to pursue it, would have had to make the case before the jury based on that dashcam footage.
that they think that Dakari was intoxicated at the time, which is a scary prospect because, you know, the jury that I sat on, the woman was not drunk.I didn't think.I mean, I was watching.
I ended up being the alternate, so I didn't get to vote, and she got convicted, which is crazy because
Like I've told the story before, but the officer that testified about the field sobriety test said, well, see how her eye didn't track with my finger here?
Well, the statistics show that if they can't do that, there's a 70% likelihood that they're impaired.Well, then we know later she does a breathalyzer test and she blew like a 0.05, and 0.08 is the legal limit in Michigan.
And so for me, I was looking at it like I'm supposed to have, without a reasonable doubt, you just told me there's a 30% chance that she's not too impaired, and the breathalyzer shows that she's not impaired.I quit.
I got booted off the jury because I was the alternate, and then they convicted her.So this could have gone way worse for Dakari if he had smoked a joint a week before this.
Yeah, that's very true.Julia says, was Dakari's friend in the passenger seat white?Just wondering if that influenced the situation in any way, e.g.
if he was white, it may have de-escalated the situation, or if he was POC, that may have played into the severity of the situation.
I don't know, because we never see him in the video.
And truthfully, just another like anecdotal thing.I don't think it matters.I think when you see a African American male in a nice vehicle, regardless of who's with them, they're immediately on to something.
We, I can remember in high school getting pulled over, handcuffed, put in a cop car because we were two white kids in Benton Harbor and they assumed we were buying drugs.And then when they didn't find anything in the car, they let us go.
Yeah, it's interesting, like the way it works the other way too, as far as the mentality of the cops in Benton Harbor.So I had a friend who was, I was at EMT with him, but he, he ended up being a cop and I remember running into him.
He'd worked for two years at Benton Harbor.He's, he moved on shortly after that, but he, he had told me he was a white guy, but he's like, man, working here, I've become like racist against white people.
He's like, cause basically they've told like, if you see a white guy driving through this neighborhood, pull them over.Cause there was only one reason for him to be there.They're buying drugs.
Well, and that's, I mean, we were 16, 17.We didn't know.We were, we have friends that live over there.We didn't know any different.Yeah.And, and I didn't know that they couldn't do that really.You know?
And we, we went home and I told my mom, she's like, they did what?They handcuffed you and put you in the car.Yeah.
We were driving, they pulled us over, handcuffed each of us, put us in the cop car, searched the vehicle, there was nothing, we didn't have anything, we were going to visit our friend.
That was the other thing too, and I don't know if we have any law enforcement officers in the chat, but I did notice in the body cam when they put Dakari in the car, like they have this whole pleasant conversation, he's incredibly compliant, he says, okay, well let's go ahead and head down there, my buddy needs to go to work, let's get the car moved and do all this stuff.
But then they handcuff him to put him in the car.And I don't know, maybe that's just, maybe you always handcuff somebody to put in a car.But I just thought, like, do you really have to handcuff him?Like, he's being compliant.That's a good question.
Yeah, and I don't know.Maybe that, like I said, probably that's just policy.I just, to me, it was like, that's ridiculous.Why are you handcuffing him?
Yeah.Nancy says, my suspicion is that the police wanted to take the car through civil forfeiture.Basically, the police can charge property.We've talked about this, of course, on the on the podcast before.
Rather than a person, they can charge the property itself with a crime and take it.Unlike a person, the property doesn't have the presumption of innocence. You have to prove your property is innocent and was gotten with legal gains.
Sometimes that's pretty difficult.Dakari probably could have with pay stubs, but he obviously had a lot of advantages and resources the average person doesn't, such as the ability to get a lawyer who could fight it to get it back.
Yeah, I don't think that only because they didn't impound the car, right?Because they could have.They could have right then and there.The car was still on the street.They could have towed the car and impounded it.But they actually like suggested
They said to have your buddy or I can drive it into his driveway and park it.So, yeah, I don't think that's what was going on here.
I think it was more that they just, you know, they saw a nice car driving, you know, they saw what was a Cadillac or what was it?It was a Cadillac driving through, you know, the inner city in Benton Harbor and thought, oh, there's a drug dealer.
Sure.Ashton says from listening to this season and all the stories, I totally understand why they don't trust the police.And it's, we'll just be the judge, jury and executioner.
Yeah, a hundred percent.And that's what we just keep hammering on this over and over again.But like this, that city, and again, these weren't Benton Harbor cops.We've made that clear.I want to continue to make that clear.
These were state troopers that were doing this.But that's like, if you just, first of all, kind of what Zach, you know, Zach was pretty emotional about that because you've seen it.But if you want, I encourage you to watch the dash cam footage.
One to notice the nuance there, because again, on the face, it looks like, oh, well, these guys are being very pleasant, everything's fine.But also notice Ducari.
Notice him at the end, once he's like, okay, now I'm talking, I've been with these guys for, you know, for 50 minutes, I know that, you know, they seem to be, he wasn't worried about being hurt at that point, and he was a little mad, and he started talking freely.
So you see what his normal personality is. Watch him when he gets pulled over.Knowing now what we know, which he was 100% sober, that right there is heartbreaking to me.There is genuine fear there from him, which as a white man is hard to understand.
You read about it, you hear about it, watching it, it's hard for me to comprehend.I have never been afraid when I got pulled over by a cop.
Angry.I have.Yeah, but for me as a white- I mean, doing nothing, I have still.
Yeah, for me, like, as a white dude getting pulled over, especially somebody that worked in public safety, that might have something to do with it too.
But for me, I'm usually just irritated that I got pulled over, either with myself for doing something stupid or for them for bothering me.
So, like, seeing him and seeing, like, his reaction to that, once you see what his real baseline is later, is kind of heartbreaking.
Yeah.That's essentially it for, you know, definitely some some great feedback from folks who, again, are feeling a lot of sympathy.The only other thing Sarah wanted to know is, does Michigan allow ballot initiatives?
People should have a right to the results of drug and alcohol tests conducted on them without going through FOIA or paying for them.
Boy, that's a question I should know.Yeah, I've seen ballot initiatives.I don't know how that process works, but yeah, I agree.
Well, to me, if there's a ballot initiative, the implied consent thing is... I don't understand that at all how we have a right to privacy.We have all the constitutional rights that we have to our privacy.We don't have to consent.
Our laws are built around every other thing. that the police have to show probable cause and get it approved by a judge in order for them to violate our privacy in any other way except for drawing your blood out and doing a test.
And the fact that it doesn't matter if you were, like I said, the fact that they can draw your blood, find out, oh, he was telling the truth.I must not have really had probable cause because he has zero alcohol in the system.Tough shit.
You still lose your license.You still get fined.You still get six points on your driver's license.Like that is, like to me, that's, and again, I need to do some more research.I literally five minutes before we recorded was reading about this.
So I don't know if that is, similar in other states or not, but that blew my mind.That was the part of the video that really had me mad.I'm like, they're lying to him.They're trying to trick him into doing this test without getting a judge's warrant.
It's like, nope, that's the rule.
Yeah.Yeah.I mean, and again, you know, I saw that Dr. Shiloh dipped in and out quickly just to say hello, and I missed it.So everything came after the fact.But I always appreciate her being here because she does work with law enforcement.
She comes from a family of law enforcement.But I also trust her very, very much about her perspective.
I've seen her call out bad behavior and, you know, want the wrong people, you know, want people who are misusing their power punished and all of that.But it's always nice
I think it's, you know, it's important for us, again, like you were saying at the beginning of this follow-up, whether you believe it or not, we really do want to maintain perspectives and some form of objectivity.
And it's very depressing spending all of your time wondering and worrying that every police officer is up to something. So I like when people challenge us on things or we challenge ourselves on things and go, could this be something else?
Or could this look any other way?And even if the result is, no, I think this might be another situation where X happened versus, oh, what a pleasant surprise, Y happened.
You know, it's important to have that objectivity as much as anyone can, which is very difficult.But I you know, none of us want to even those of us who are here trying to do this work.
Nobody wants to live in a world where every single cop is a danger to you at all times because they're all crooked like we you know.
Right.So this is the thing, and we'll leave you with this.A couple of things.One, I'm curious if Jeff in the chat here is an officer.He had said that in Nebraska, it is standard procedure to always be cuffed if you're in a squad car.
But he also says, and this is a good public safety announcement that Jeff says, you do not have to consent to field sobriety tests. or breathalyzer tests.And that's true in Michigan too.
So the whole field sobriety thing they were doing, you don't have to submit to that.You don't have to submit to a field breathalyzer, but apparently you do have to submit to a blood test.
So the recommendation, what I teach my kids, and you guys take it for whatever it's worth, is constitutional rights to privacy are there for a reason.You are not being difficult.You are not being an asshole if you exercise your rights to privacy.
And as Jeff points out here, that the field sobriety tests, they're a trap for the impaired and the sober.So just say no to them.
And I agree with that because what happens is, for example, here, let's say that there's a scenario where Dakari did smoke pot a week ago. But he's 100% sober here.
He goes and gets his blood test, shows negative for alcohol, shows positive for marijuana.They could then take him to trial and try to prove to a jury that he was impaired.And you know what evidence they're gonna use?
The video of the field sobriety tests. So you're better off not to do... If you get pulled over and you are... Again, not legal advice.I'm not a lawyer.This is my opinion.
If you get pulled over and you are sober and they're accusing you of being impaired, just say, I'm not answering your questions.I'm not doing any field sobriety tests.I'm sorry.I'm exercising my rights.
If you need to take me to do a blood test, let's do that.And that's it.That's it.Let them go prove it.It's no different Then when a cop says, I just want to talk to you, you can just clear your name.We want to help you.
And so you try to talk your way out of it, and then you end up getting trapped because of it.In most of the wrongful conviction cases we have, a common theme is they talk to the police without a lawyer.Don't do that.
Don't submit to violate your privacy when you don't have to, according to Dr. Bob Ruff, PhD, CPA, whatever.
Side note, I got super scared when they were like, and we just need to take you to nine large steps, and then you're going to shuffle, do this kickball change, and you're going to do nine more steps.
For that, I was like, I don't know if I could do that sober.I'm not following.I'm actually not following.So I agree with you.
Yeah.The last thing I'll say before we close it out, as Simone makes a good point, be careful with that advice and please know your laws in your specific state.
First of all, she says, be sober when you're driving, but as far... Yeah, definitely know your... Again, do not listen to me.It's not legal advice.And it's always okay to ask those questions too.
It's always okay to ask the officer, do I have to do this? they have to answer.It's no different than saying, am I being detained, if they want to question you.And if the answer is no, you can get up and walk away.
So as long as you're respectful, and you're not being offensive, and you're just asking good questions, that's fine.And again, one more time, I'm not a lawyer, don't listen to me. But that's my advice.And with that, let's go and wrap this thing up.
This Sunday, we've got coming up the state's closing arguments.We're gonna hear all about their story.They told the jury that resulted in Jody's conviction.And then next week, we're gonna cover the defense's closing arguments and the rebuttal.
So that's what we got coming up.Thanks, guys, for tuning in.Thanks, everybody, in the chat for participating.And we'll talk to you guys next week.
Bye, guys. Truth & Justice is an NBI Studios production, co-written and produced by Erica Birgenheim.Music for Season 15 is created and composed by Caden Ladislaw.Follow-up episodes are co-hosted by Janet Varney and Zach Weber.
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