Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out.I am Pablo Torre, and today, we're gonna find out what this sound is.
I broke my back one time doing a donk.Right after this ad.
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So there are some episodes, Ken, that I've been wanting to do forever since before the show launched, and this is one of them. I've been chasing you.You know this.I want people to appreciate this.I've been chasing you for a while.
It's been over a year, yeah.But I guess for people who don't know your alter ego, Ken Solomon, thank you for being here in studio, by the way.My pleasure.How do you describe what you did for 33 years?
I told people for a long time that I play dress up for a living.I just found, by the way, the other day, I was going through some boxes.I found my first credential. It says, Ken Solomon, entertainment guy.I just made stuff up all the time.
That's all technically accurate.Yeah.And yet wildly insufficient for why I've been chasing you for a year.
There was a reason why I was paid not to speak for 33 years, so.Yeah.
At what point do you reveal your true alter ego?Right now. I'm gonna workshop your cocktail party response to, hey, what do you do?You were the greatest mascot in sports.Wow.
Let alone the longest tenured mascot in the NBA, let alone the most athletic, the most memorable, the guy whose highlight reel is as good as any players.What was your alter ego's name?Rocky.
So I just gotta jump in here to point out that the presently calm voice of Ken Solomon does belie the wildly kinetic absurdity of his alter ego, Rocky the Mountain Lion.
The spirit animal of the Denver Nuggets and mascot Hall of Famer and documented enemy, by the way, of multiple basketball Hall of Famers.And Rocky, of course, has never uttered a single word
And so his truly unique acrobatics, from the reverse half-court shots, to all of the parkouring around the Pepsi Center, to the climbing to the roof of the building, all of that is what spoke for him.
But the initial spark for this episode wasn't even one of Rocky's death-defying maneuvers.
It was an unforgettably bizarre and incredibly viral example of what looked to be the opposite, actually, as you'll see in a bit here, which is all to say that what I wanted to find out today was the secret life of the human being deep inside that suit.
Why couldn't you talk about being Rocky for so long?
I really lived this character. And back when I started, there were no real rules about mascot.We were making it up at the time.It was the Wild West of mascots back then.
When I was hired, we discussed this, the Nuggets and I, and we ended up just deciding, hey, let's keep this mute.I was more for that than they were. And they hadn't really even thought about it, but I said, I wanna do it this way.
I thought it would build the mystique of the character.When Rocky was first introduced, they told the whole story with a news thing.It was a pre-recorded thing, but it looked live.And they said, ladies and gentlemen, there's been a big storm.
and people all of a sudden got up and left.There were probably about 1,000 people that got up and left the game, literally, to go take care of their livestock.
This is like War of the Worlds, when they announced, like, an alien invasion on the radio, people were like, oh, shit, I gotta go, I gotta go save my family.Right, that's what they were doing.
And the suit, can you describe what it felt like to climb into it?What's the sensation of inhabiting it?
When I was in college, I was a college mascot as well.There is a sensation, there is a change that happens.
There was a character, there was a personality, there was a, you know, and a lot of what you see is the guy on the inside, that's his personality on steroids.I mean, you're not gonna really do anything that's not deep inside you.
You push out the personality, and it takes a lot to push that out.You communicate physically, which I had a history of growing up that way.My heroes were Shields and Yarnell.They were a couple.They had a variety show.
So I started miming when I was a kid because of Shields and Yarnell.
The origin story of you, let alone the origin story of Rocky, these are stories that trajectories that converge because you being obsessed with essentially with miming and the question of how do I get to express myself without speaking?
You know, for me, it was I was terrible in school, and always thinking outside the box.And I was at a baseball game in Las Vegas, the Stars baseball game, and the San Diego Chicken was there.And it just clicked for me.I'm doing that.I'm doing that.
How did your parents react when you said, I want to be the San Diego Chicken one day?
And they were all for it.They were always pushing the boundaries themselves.My dad was a cheerleader in high school and in college.I mean, he taught me how to rappel when I was 11.
When I was eight years old, he let me and my brother and my sister hike across the Mojave Desert by ourselves, 110 miles.Jesus.They were very supportive.My dad built. And my mother sewed my high school mascot costume.
So this is a family business in a sense.This was a production that everybody got to support.Yeah.It's a pretty unique bit of wiring for someone who becomes the longest-tenured mascot in NBA history who cannot talk.
I literally felt more comfortable in his skin than my own.
When did the degree of acrobatic ambition enter the picture?Because Rocky, to me, is synonymous with the batshit crazy stuff that you would do, which I believe to be unparalleled.And there's some amazing mascots in sports, amazing.
But the stuff that you would do, I wanna run through some of it because did you design the stunts? How did that become key to what you were?
A lot of trial and error.A lot of the collaborating that I did around the office.Surrounding myself with good assistants.We did a halftime one time that was the OK Go video with all the treadmills.Yes.
My assistant was like, hey man, how big can we go?And pretty soon he had, what, eight treadmills being delivered?
Which of the stunts was the hardest one?
I had this thing where I'd climb.I was always trying to take things to the next level.You loved climbing.I loved climbing.
He's going all the way up.
So I would climb up to the top of the arena and I said, how can I push this?How can I take this to the next level?Well, I found that there was a door at the very top of one of the sections that went out on to the top of the building.
So I thought, what if I run from center court, climb to the top, go out the door, clip in, rappel down, the side of the building, unclip, run back through the hallways, get back to center court in one break.
I didn't get to center court, but I got to the edge of the court.Like during a timeout?During a timeout.Yeah.Good God.Yeah.That was exhausting.
Other mascots weren't doing this shit.You know that.Yeah.
At a certain point, it felt like you were just challenging yourself.I was.I was.I wasn't in competition with anybody else.It was just, what's something fun, crazy that you wouldn't normally think of doing?
Right.It's like, okay, I could shoot from half court or I could do it backwards. It's just absurd.I mean, at one point, like, you mastered roller skating.
I was roller skating since I could walk.
Of course you could.Yeah.You rode a motorcycle?Which was your favorite?Which was the one that you are like, this is, if I have one highlight that I want to be remembered for, it is this one.
Stuff with Charles Barkley?Amazing. Amazing, that was magic.How did that start?What's the origin story of your feud with Charles Barkley?Okay, so at the time, Charles was, he was the bad guy.He was, you know, he was making news off the court.
He was throwing people through windows. One game, as he's, you know, walking around, I kept taunting him a little bit, like, you know, hey, you know, just throwing a little jab as I walked by.
Like pantomiming.Yes, yes.Like a boxer stance.
Yes, yes. And then finally, later in the game, drew a line in the sand, so to speak, on the court.And he stops, he looks at me, and he's like, yeah.It's cool, man.All right, come on.Come on.No, come on.Let's shake on this.Let's shake.Oh, OK, great.
Yeah, I walk over. go to shake his hand, he grabs me, pulls me in, boom, pops me in the face.And literally, my knees buckle, I'm out.Dinged me for just a second.The next thing I remember is the referee standing over me saying, get the off the court.
We're trying to play professional basketball.Right, right.And the unconscious body of this mountain lion is in the way.
Yeah, he thinks I'm just, you know, playing it up.Right, doing a bit.Yeah. I go back in my room, take the head off and I'm looking in the mirror and my lower lip is just quivering because my nose is bleeding, my tooth is loose.
I've got, my lips are bleeding.He hit me.And I thought, is he really that guy?It just didn't ring true to me.So I collected my thoughts for a second.I go, you know what?No, I need to find out.I need to find out now.I need to find out tonight.
Give me my stilts.I yelled to my assistant, give me my stilts, get my stilts, get my stilts.He's like, what are you doing?I'm like, I'm going out there on my stilts.I'm gonna find out how far he's gonna take this.Let's go.
I go out there and I stand next to the huddle almost.Like I stand next to the, I get near the bench and then I'm doing the Fred Sanford, you know, thing, you know, come on, come on.
And sure enough, he walks over, looks me up and down and goes for my crotch.
Sir Charles disqualified for delivering the low blow with his forehead.
But he doesn't hit me, you know, doesn't make contact, makes it look like it.And oh, I stumble and I grab my crotch and I'm like, oh, this is whoa, you know, but I knew right then. He gets it.This guy gets it.
So, the very next game, I said, this is what I want to do.I want to full-on set it up like it's a fight.Yep, of course.Of course, my guys were like, no, no, no, no.You're not doing that.Nope.
They said, absolutely not, because the chances of him actually doing something with you, nil.
Oh, they doubted.They doubted your scouting report.Yeah.Having just gone through this very unique bonding ritual.
Yeah.With Charles Barkley.I said, no, no, no, no.You don't understand.I absolutely know he will come out.He will punch me.He will do something.There will be an altercation, and I'll take it.
Round one.Charles quickly drops Rocky to the hardwood.Who said anything about a fair fight?
Sure enough, he walks out, jumps up in the air.Boom.It hits me in the face.Oh, I turn like a tree going down.
Wham!You are so thrilled recounting the story of how Charles Barkley kept punching you in the face.
Oh, it was on after that.I mean, like, literally, he would stop in my room after that.You know, game after game, it's, what are we doing tonight?
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Has any other player embraced your calling the way that Barkley did?
Shaq was great.I was at the Hall of Game Awards.The Hall of Game Awards by Cartoon Network.I was up for Most Awesome Mascot.So I was on stage with he and Nick Cannon. in California, an incredible Mad Libs so far.
And there was, you know, there was all kinds of stuff on, the stage was built for, there was, you know, bicycles and there was a, you know, foam pit.And when I won, I ran over and I jumped in Shaq's arms and I said, throw me in the pit.
Throw me in the pit.He's like, what?Throw me in the pit.I'm being held underneath my armpits and he tosses me like I was a little kid. I literally giggled as I'm flying through the air.It was a flashback of when my dad would throw me in the pool.
It was the craziest feeling to have this massive man toss me like I was a little child.
It was awesome.But that's the through line, the emotional through line, it seems like through your whole career is that you're chasing a feeling that only children typically get to experience.Yeah. Was there anybody who hated your guts?
Players who were like… Yeah, Russell Westbrook.Yeah.Feelings mutual.Explain Russ's attitude towards you.I don't… He's pretty intense.I've noticed so far.
Yeah.Yeah.I was throwing a half-court shot one time and he just goes out there and blocks it.
You've missed it.Rocky takes his half-court shot.Westbrook intercepting it.
Twice!And then threw it into the crowd.Oh, I just stared at him, pointed at him, all the way off the court, like, yeah, dude, it's on now.And then, uh... Yeah, personally, I approached him later.That did not go well.
Oh, wait.As Ken or as Rocky?Yeah, personally, after... As Ken Zalman.Yeah, a couple weeks later.
And how did that conversation proceed?There was no conversation.I wanted to, like, laugh and joke with him about it.Yeah, he was not going to even talk to me.Wow.Yeah.What an a**hole.Glad you said that.I didn't say that.
Russell Westbrook, I do need to point out here, is now on the Denver Nuggets.He just signed there in July and, you know, there's no word yet on whether Russ also wants to knock Rocky out like Charles Barkley once did.
But this does bring me back around to my initial curiosity about this foam mountain lion, which was an admittedly hilarious viral clip that I've been sending to my friends for years now.
You can see Rocky being lowered from the ceiling, ostensibly repelling here, except he is visibly limp, seemingly unconscious, honestly, except for his enormous white eyes, which happily remain, as always, wide open.
When I finally looked at the footage of that, I was like, oh, I just cringed.Yeah, that really did look bad.What happened, Ken?So I had practiced this bit.I wanted to come down and act like I was landing on the moon type of thing.
We'd practice this, get in position.I'm clipping this harness on, and I've also got the full body harness underneath.They put the rope through my collar. Clip in.Go, go, go.They open the gate, step out on the I-beam.Go, go, go.Step off the I-beam.
And all of a sudden, I realized my jacket was zipped up still.I was supposed to unzip it. So, if you can imagine the rope going through your collar.
You're pantomiming a noose right now.
Yes, yes.And all of a sudden, that collar is just digging into my neck.It was the collar.It was the collar.
What a thing to find out on this show.
It was the collar.It was the collar.Yeah.And all I thought was, I, that is, that hurts so bad.Oh my gosh, that is cutting into my neck.Oh my gosh, that hurts, ow.I cannot wait to get down.That was it.
That was the last thing you remember?
Yeah.I mean, I was out that fast.Ow, wow.It was like a full-on MMA choke hold.Ow.And the next thing you recall after that is what?I woke up on the court, it's all black, and I hear so faintly, and it starts getting louder.Rocky, are you okay?
And then all of a sudden, it just goes like, it just came all of a sudden loud and my eyes were opening and I hear, you know, really loud.Ken, are you okay?And I jumped up, slapped my guy on the back right there and said, I'm gonna go in the back.
So this is where I feel obliged to remind you that Rocky the Mountain Lion's human identity was kept secret by rule for more than 30 years.More than 30 years, okay?That is how seriously some pro sports franchises take mascot culture.
And so Ken's culture, which was older than any other mascots in the history of pro basketball, was in fact his costume.As much as anybody in sports history, Ken Solomon was a Method mascot.
Which also means, it turns out, that he was kind of a professional athlete himself. your job was to not let people see the man inside.Right, right.
Which was a duty, a sacred duty that you treated with, of course, all of the gravity of like, this is part of the deal.
Yeah, people always ask, well, what if you were sick?What if you got hurt?It's not an option.I had no backup at the time, forever.I broke my back one time doing a dunk. Broke my back.Made my way off the court before I collapsed.
And yeah, I was out for eight weeks.Jeez.L3 and four.Jesus Christ.Yeah, shattered from a dunk.Was it worth it?Heck yeah.I mean, for years and years and years, for the next 20 years.Hey man, I remember when you broke your back. Because you guys sell.
People don't even know that half the time I was on an IV after a game.Or breaking down just sobbing after a game because I f- I gave everything.I gave everything.
I hadn't considered the idea that for a player, of course, we're used to seeing them, you know, famous photographs of Kobe Bryant sobbing, Michael Jordan sobbing.They win the finals, they win the title, and they're on the floor sobbing.
Finally, a release.I did not appreciate that for you as Rocky, as an NBA mascot, your championship would not necessarily be the literal championship.It would be seemingly a random night.
In the winter, maybe, when you pulled off something that no one had seen before and almost killed yourself to do it.And seemingly, of course, you had no choice for it, but to be private.
Privately, you got to finally release what you had been essentially penning inside yourself.
My son found some footage the other day that he had taken. some years ago where I was doing the Nutcracker.Please explain.Tights, the tutu, wig, fairy wings, and, you know, Rocky's introduced as the Sugar Plum Fairy.The bit is, go out there,
run around, you know, grab referees' butts and, you know, flit around, and there's a balance beam on the court that has been brought out.I end up getting up on the balance beam, doing this little thing, and then at the crescendo, I drop on the beam.
straddling it, and then slowly fall off to the side, bam, land on the ground, grabbing my crotch, and the announcer says, ladies and gentlemen, the Nutcracker.Place comes apart.I walk, walk, you know, stumbling, and get back to the curtain.
I come out of character at that point, walk back to the room, take off the head and the footage is me just hacking and coughing.I've got, and I remember, oh my gosh, I got 104 fever. I was so sick.You know, nobody knows that.That was your flu game.
Yeah, that was.Except instead of, you know, scoring a zillion points, you dropped your testicles onto a balance beam and then proceeded to privately hack up the contents of your respiratory system.
Yeah, that was, that was the norm though.We didn't, I didn't have, you know, I didn't have, there was no backup.
I underrated, even as a fan of your work from afar, the degree to which your life has been an athlete's life.With injury and recovery, your existence was pressurized in the way that a public performer's career was on the court.
but largely conducted in secret because no one actually knew because you couldn't say it, verbalize it, what was happening in there.
It was a good thing though. I could still go to the grocery store and overhear people talking about, you know, they saw Rocky do this.It was great to be a fly on the wall a lot of times.
But I imagine, right, I imagine as someone who does a job that is very explicitly, here I am, here's my name in the show, here's my face, I would find it frustrating.The idea that people only know the alter ego.They don't know the person inside.
And it sounds like you made peace with that, but I'm wondering when it wore on you, the idea of, I'm also me.
To be honest with you, there were times when I was frustrated with what was being reported in the media.
One of the most, I would say, unique news cycles in basketball media was, I mean, certainly around what Rocky got paid.Oh, yes.Dun-dun-dun.Can we fact check this?
Oh, you can, yeah, you can try.
Well, look, what was reported was that Rocky was making $625,000 a year. This now, given the larger context of every story you've told me, feels like you were underpaid.Well, thank you.I appreciate that.But what can what can be said about this?
Because this sparked all sorts of conversation around like what people who didn't know what it is that you did and for how long and what it cost. You, your body.People are like, this is insane.Are all mascots paid this way?
How did that all feel to you?
It was interesting.You know, the Nuggets, they helped me raise my family.And, uh, so I'm neither going to confirm nor deny that.Wow.But, uh, the Nuggets were good to me.
Yeah.Yeah, yeah, yeah.I just like how the guy who, um, almost killed himself falling off of the top of a building was like, This one I'm going to play very carefully.This is the bridge too far.Yes, yes.I'll keep that one right here.
What are the other things that frustrated you when it came to things that were reported in public that made you think, if only I could speak, if only people did know that Ken was in here?
Well, there's one out there that is, you know, Rocky went to a Republican rally or whatever. I'm like, wait, I got hired for an appearance and it was actually before the rally and it was just, you know, Rocky there warming up the crowd.
You know, of course the media spun that and took it sideways.
What political party is Rocky registered with, Ken?This is what I've come to find out.
What is Rocky's voting record?I'm like, well, wait a second.Come on, you guys.Anybody that pays I'll go to their rally, I don't care, you know, whatever it is.
Rocky does not endorse this message.He will, though, do some backflips.
And I followed the rules that were set out by my company.Look, don't take a picture with any politicians. Make sure you're gone before the rally starts.You know, this is- Yeah.
You know, so I did all that, but- You're a pro.What do people not understand from the outside about this line of work?What's the number one thing to you that feels egregious that people are just missing when it comes to what you did?
That there's an actual person in there.
When did that get the most frustrating?Oh man, how many times are you gonna pull my tail?How many times do I have a parent say,
Go pull his tail, go pull his tail, go pull it.
What a mascot is and does, I guess, is a mascot is the person that everybody wants to be, but can't be, or gets to do what everybody wants to do, but can't.So they think that they can do whatever they want to a mascot as well.
You're like the god of rambunctious children.Yeah. Well, hold on.In fairness to them, I think they're trying to do what you did to Charles Barkley.They're thinking, we— I thought this was fair game, right?
Yes, a lot of times, they think it's fair game.But you reacted with the sentiment of an actual mountain lion, it sounds like, who had its tail pulled.You're like, no.Or, I would just swing my leg back and give him a swift kick. Don't pull that.
Well, that's the other part about being a mascot, I imagine.Mess with the bull.Is that, like, you can also get away with some stuff.
Oh, yeah.Yeah.As long as you pull it off the right way.How does one pull off beating up a fan the right way?Because I've seen you hit some fans with pies, with some cakes.
What's the key to threading the needle of, I am doing something to someone, and they're liking it.
They don't necessarily need to like it.You just have to do it the right way.So, for example, inevitably, every game, you know, Rocky, get out of the way.Rocky, you suck.You know, that type of thing.I would be like, oh man, come on, it's okay.
Come on, you and me, we're pals, let's go.Come on, give me some.So I'd reach out, I'd grab their hat.What was the best was when we were on the upper level and I could send it down to the lower levels.
My assistant runs and gets it, or the people throw it back to them, or whatever.Eh, but I got a little, got a little something in on them.I had to feel good.Oh, yeah.Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, you can't really go, I mean, you can't go ham on anybody.
Although I do enjoy the fact that you basically have a license in an NBA building that no one else does.Yeah.You are doing things by virtue of your occupation that would get everybody thrown out immediately. Yes.Like grabbing a player's butt.
What's the art of grabbing a player's butt?Have some character.Don't just do it.It's the whole build up.It's the whole ending.You got to have a whole... Anything that a mascot does.If you're a good mascot, you're telling a story constantly.
Telling a story.I pantsed a player one time while he was about to in down the ball.Was he in on it?No.
I love that you were perpetually, again, as this athlete metaphor continues to crystallize for me, you were perpetually heat checking.Oh yeah.You're like, I could get away with it.This is gonna work.Yeah, yeah.Who did your pants?
I don't even remember.You don't even remember?This is incredible.You don't remember.
Yeah.It was, that's so funny to me.Yeah, got a fine for that one. And a lot of fines.Who fines you?The NBA.The NBA fines you?Yeah.What's the damage like on these fines?Anywhere between five and seven.
Do you have any idea how much money you lost to fines in your career in the NBA?Wow, no.It would equal probably around $50,000.Somewhere in that neighborhood.Again, sounds like it was worth it.Every minute.
By the end, were you ready to stop doing it?Were you ready to stop putting on the suit?
I always wanted a, you know, deep inside, I wanted to ride off in the sunset, you know, but I never knew what that would, could look like.But as it turned out, you know, my last game was, it was filled with a whole lot of confetti.
At last, the long wait is over.After 47 years, the Denver Nuggets can finally call themselves NBA champions.There's such joy right now in the Mile High City.The first title in franchise history.
So, the climax of your career of the Nuggets as a franchise seems cosmically faded in retrospect then.
But because of the guys and the girls on this stage, and because of you, everyone out here, we're world champions!
I thought, you know what, isn't this typical of my career?It just, it was magic.I was in awe in a lot of ways, a lot of times, of what was going on.And then, you know, all of a sudden, you know, to end it with that storybook ending.
I just thought it doesn't get any better than that.It's Rocky!Rocky was my best friend. So, is that how you see it?As a friendship?Yeah.I relied on him.If it wasn't for Rocky, I don't know where I'd be.
I went through some depression times where if I didn't have to get in costume, I honestly, I don't know where I'd be.I'd go put that thing on and be able to escape.I never escaped with alcohol or drugs or anything like that.That was my drug.
Rocky was my drug.And I would go out, get the endorphins going for myself, but then also to be surrounded by smiles, ah, I can make it through another day.Yeah.So it was a trip.
Explain the line of succession here.Explain how that has worked as you've been trying to negotiate and figure out, well, what happens to me now, to us now.
Yeah.I can't really go into too many details about the succession other than, you know, he's in good hands and I'm not too far removed.I was never under the assumption that I would ever own Rocky or that Rocky was mine or anything like that.
It was a opportunity for me to do what I love, get paid well for it.I got some good advice along the way from Mark Randall.Mark Randall played for us, ended up being my assistant.
Former NBA player, former Nugget.Yes.Mark Randall.Yes.He played with Michael Jordan.Yeah, yeah, yeah.The Bulls, the Timberwolves, the Pistons, the Nuggets.Great guy.
He one day has to put me in my place and say, you know, you need to understand this is going to end at some point.And like any player, understand that You know, you've been doing this a long time, more than any player.
But at the same time, it's temporary.And it was good advice at the time.It was great timing on it.And I started preparing for the afterlife.
What is the afterlife of Ken Solomon like?Having gone through his first death, so to speak, what's it like on the other side so far?
It's a little bit of rediscovering.And at the same time, a breath of fresh air and realizing that that's not me and I'm okay.
I had so much attitude and swagger and things like that where, you know, these other characters are, it's different, but it's okay.I don't think I'll ever, I mean, I'm pretty much sure that I'll never develop anything like that.
in that way again, but it's okay.
Is there anything you want to say at the end here to Charles Barkley, wherever he may be?You're going down, punk.
It ain't over.It ain't over. Those guys have been so fun.In the finals, he and I did a little jersey exchange.
Sir Charles will now present Rocky with a signed Phoenix Suns jersey, and Rocky will present Sir Charles with a Game 1 jersey from the 1990s.
And I got to punch him one last jab in on him.Game 1 for Colton, this is the game.
That was awesome.I'm just glad you both remained conscious.Yes.Yes.And no bloody lip.Yes.It has been really good to meet your best friend.It's even better, Ken Solomon, to finally meet you.So thank you so much for doing this.Thank you.
This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out, a Metalark Media production.
And we are produced by Walter Everoma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Dawig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Nealey Lohman, Rob McCray, Rachel Miller-Howard, Ethan Schreier, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Chris Tuminello, and Juliet Warren.
Our studio engineering by RG Systems.Our sound design by NGW Post.Our theme song, as always, by John Bravo.And we will talk to you next time.
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