Yeah, and thank you for coming on on such short notice.
Thank you for having me.Oh, of course.
Yeah, well, happy to have you here.Thank you.I am just real quick.I am going to lock the door to the podcast.There's been some break-ins in the podcast recently, so I'm just like, yeah, I'm just to make things a little bit safer.
I'm just going to go ahead and lock the door behind us.OK.
It's important to feel safe on this spookiest season of the year.
Yeah, it's so important.And you have to have a safe space to be creative, I find.That's true.And sometimes that just means making sure that chain is across the old door.
Welcome to Big Game Hunger, a show where me and a guest craft the big next game every episode.We'll be taking three random ingredients and blending them together into one incredible game.I'm Jenna Stieber and I crave content.
And I'm joined by Paul Lukmeyer.Paul, who are you and what do you have a hunger for?
Hi Jenna, I'm Paul Lukmeyer.I am a humble podcaster for an actual play podcast that I might advertise for later.And what do I have a hunger for Jenna?I have a hunger for big, big games.
Massive games, legendarily large games.
Games, Jenna, yes.Mount game.That's what I'm after.
Well, you are in the right place, Paul.You had a taste of the big game hunger earlier last year.Well, this year, I guess this is the same year.It's still 2024.When you came on and we made a Houdini base, right?
Yeah, there were two.And the Houdini one thematically was kind of scattershot.There was another one that was like you and your family are trying to solve a mystery or something.I don't know.I was doing my best to remember without re-listening.
According to my document, it says, so you think you can family?Prove it is the name of the game that we made.
Mysterious.I'm up for the challenge.
Good, good.That's a good attitude to have, Paul.I think we can top this one, but we'll just see.
We'll see.It's so funny that you said you have a big game hunger, because that just made me think of a book that we both recently finished reading.
Yes, Jenna? I thought you were gonna say Kitchen Confidential.No, Moby Dick.
No, I gave up on Kitchen Confidential.I took it back to the library.
I said, thank you, no thank you.Yeah, that's fair.Moby Dick, wow, that was a journey.When I got to the end, I felt like I had been on the ocean for a year and a half chasing a whale, honestly.
Paul, genuinely, yes.The experience of reading that book is so much like how I imagine it is to be trapped on a fucking boat for a year with people who do nothing but talk about whales and whaling and whale lore and whale-related business.
But in a way that I really enjoyed.
Same.I think that book changed me in good, important ways.
I think it did for me too, actually.And partially that's just because it was such an undertaking.And it was such a thing to emotionally and mentally commit to doing over the span of several months.
And to carve away progress at this fucking tome, this fucking sepulchre of a book. and then to make it to the end and it's just so rewarding to read the whole thing and make it to the end that I was like, I do feel like it changed me.
It really is.It's like digging the Panama Canal.You just cannot do it in one go.You've got to treat it like you've got to stop and rest, reflect, return.Yes.
You really have to pace yourself.Because if you read, this was my experience, if I read too much in a span of time, I would burn out on just engaging with Herman Melville's insanity.Yeah.
Yeah, I know.It's a strong book.It's long and it's dense.There's no pith.It's all just at a fever pitch.The comedy is insane.
It's so funny.It's insane how funny it is.
Oh my god.Classics get a bad rap for being dry.No, this was not a dry book.This was as wet as the ocean.
Yeah, it's wet, it's salty, it's fucking wild.It's a lot gayer than I expected.There's so much in this book about masculine bonds and the specter of the white whale as being like almost like metaphorical virginal creature that has never been taken.
It's just like, okay, Melville, I'll rest on that one for a while.I don't know what that's all about.
Yeah, there are some parts that have no easy answer, and I have skimmed some interpretations, and I'm just not satisfied with them.
I think it's one of those books where you have to take everything and apply it to your own personal sense of meaning, almost like dream interpretation if you wake up and you're like, what? What was that?It was so meaningful.
And ultimately, you just have to decide for yourself, you know, what the whale meant and the scenes where Ishmael is holding hands with his shipmates and just dissolving into a sense of, I don't know, internal rivalry or something.
Are you talking about the sequence when they're milking the sperm whale?
They're squeezing the lumps out of the oil, yes.
And he has this euphoric experience of being like, my hands in the sperm, squeezing my co-mate's hands.And I was just blissed out.It was like I was floating in heaven.What the fuck?
Around a time when I just stopped questioning anything and I was just creating with a completely blank intellect.It was freeing in a way.
Yeah, it is.You really just have to surrender yourself onto Melville's vision.Because it's all, there's so much of it and you can't struggle against it.You just, in a way, reading Moby Dick is like succumbing to fate.
Yes, yeah, yeah, you feel your attachments unhook and dissolve as you read the book.It's, whew, boy, I gotta tell you.This is a real tangent, but all of those classics, they're classic for a reason.
Everything that I had heard about it, none of it really applied ultimately, just a little bit.I think that's important, I don't know, great book. Glad you liked it.Glad you finished it.Glad you felt satisfied.What a whale of a tale, Jenna.
I do want to ask you what your favorite part or scene or segment was, or if you don't have a favorite, what you think the most insane part about the book was.
Oh, are we in spoiler-friendly territory here?It's hard not to spoil the book when you're talking about it.I didn't just go for it.
Okay, yeah.It's over 100 years old, so.
The statute of limitations has ended by now, yeah, okay, that's fine.Craziest thing, probably, One has to do with the style, Jenna.
One crazy thing is that the story would be kicking along, you'd be in a narrative portion, and they would be whaling, or they would have an encounter on the sea with some crazy side character that would pop up, be extremely weird, and then be gone again forever.
And then the next chapter would be about a hyper-specific part of whaling, and just The whiplash of going from one segment to the other was always shocking.
It was always a cold bucket of water and I never got to a point where I felt prepared for the whiplash because it was just peak every time.
It ground my progress to a halt at the beginning.
Over the progress of the book, I got used to being like, OK, we're going to have one chapter of adventure, high seas fun and fantasy, and then three chapters of insane, extraordinarily scientifically inaccurate whale war.
The chapter where he's talking about how there are too many whales to ever overfish whales blew my fucking mind.That was bone chilling.
When he was like, consider how big the ocean is and how many vast number of whales must swim in it.And then compare that to how many sheep there are on land, and you'll know that we could never overfish whales.It's like, uh-oh.Whoops.
I did appreciate that a certain point.At a certain point, those chapters stop.Then it is just like a fucking down roller coaster slide to the fucking end of the book at that point.All you can do is strap in and hold on and let it just
It's not even a roller coaster.It's like you're looking at a wall up ahead and you're shooting off at rocket speeds along this track, knowing that you're going to hit that wall and that there's nothing you can do about it.
And it's just like, that's how I felt.
It is like you're in a plane and the engines just failed.
Yes.Yeah, that's actually, yeah.
The intense vertigo is a physical feeling. In a good way.I think that's a good thing about the book.It is exhilarating.Yeah.
I think the other thing that bears mentioning for me is how the strong, flavorful characters would be there and then suddenly gone and never mentioned again.The shocking number of threads that
weren't, you know, and I think a lot of media feels like it has to take every thread and tie it off.And this one was just like, nope, the point was the mix of flavors.And when it did its job to add a flavor to the mix, then that was its job.
It wasn't narrative completion.It was the whole bouquet, which was really interesting.
Did you have a favorite NPC?
Yeah, fucking Queequeg's the best.Yeah, Queequeg's great.
If I had to pick a number two because Queequeg's so great, it's probably Starbuck.I love how every time things started to get a little crazy, he would be like, oh no, things are getting crazy again and I don't like it.That was always refreshing.
I will say I had difficulty always distinguishing the three, like Boatsman, Flask, Starbuck, and the other one.
Yes, Stub.Sometimes I had difficulty parsing them apart.
Flask stuck out for me more because there's a really relatively early, I think it's like chapter, it's in the 30s, where they're talking about how when Flask eats dinner at the captain's table because he's the lowest rung
He never serves himself butter, even though he's at the captain's table and the butter is there for them all to eat.He thinks he's low class, and so he doesn't eat the butter.And Melville's just like, oh, Flask, you butterless man.
I'm obsessed with the idea of the butterless man as being an archetype.
Yes. Yeah, I will say that when I was done with Moby Dick, I felt like my life was bereft of these hyperbolic exclamations for everything.
Oh, that's something I feel like if anybody I knew could work into their day-to-day conversations, it would be you, Paul.
All right.We're going to make a game about Moby Dick.No, sorry.What were you saying?
My favorite NPC was Pip, the coward.Wow.
Wow, that's a bold choice.
Well, it's because he really touched the horror part of my heart, like the existential horror part that I'm so drawn to in horror media.This book doesn't have a lot.
It has a really, I will say, a huge amount of really ominous stuff that becomes increasingly more horror-vibed towards the end of the book without ever becoming a full gothic horror or anything like that.
But for the audience, Pip is a character who he's supposed to just be like a boat boy.But then one of the oarsmen on the whale ships that get dropped in chase after the whale gets sick.And so he has to take up an oar.
And the first time they come across a whale, the boat gets bumped and he jumps from the boat because he's in a panic.He's like, we're going to die.The boat's going to get wrecked.
And he gets scolded by the staff, by the other shipmen, and is like, if you do that again, we're not turning around for you.You're a coward, and we're not going to come and get you, and you're going to be lost in the ocean.
And so they go out on the sea again, and he does it again.He jumps from the boat. And they make it clear that, I don't remember who is, I think it's Stubb is leading his boat.
They make it clear that Stubb didn't see him fall out and would have actually gone back immediately and gotten him, but he was too busy chasing the whale.
And so you just have this harrowing chapter of Pip being in the open sea without another soul or boat around for like only like an hour, but it permanently, it basically drives him mad.
And he just spends the rest of the book being like, oh, Pip, that coward, when you see him in heaven, tell him we say hello.
I just found this idea of being totally exposed and helpless in the open ocean, knowing the wide breadth of the ocean as being something that just fundamentally alters your soul.I found that really engaging.
Yeah, it was potent.Pip deserves love in multiple ways, Jenna.I think he's one of the more human characters.A lot of them kind of accept their lot in life philosophically, and we explore the different philosophies.
And the horror that befalls Ahab is kind of of his own making.It's almost biblical that he sees omens and he turns away from them.But Pip is just like a kid.And so his fate is very different.It's a lot more raw.It's undeserved.
Yeah, that's a good choice.Poor Pip.
All right, are you... I could keep talking about Moby Dick the rest of this podcast episode.Same.But that's not what we're gonna do.
It's gonna be a spinoff.We're gonna have a book club spinoff podcast.
But it's just talking about Moby Dick week after week.
Okay, well, I love the idea of franchising this podcast I think Moby Dick deserves a Dracula Daily style revival, but I don't know what that would look like.Maybe a cruise.
Oh, what?A Moby Dick cruise.A Moby Dick themed cruise.That feels like the mask of the Red Death, right?That's just inviting tragedy.
You're so right.You're so right.Knowingly getting on a boat that is Moby Dick themed is like... Okay.
First episode of BBH, we charter a cruise and we live read Moby Dick.
Okay, that would be incredible because imagine sitting with a bunch of strangers, you've read Moby Dick, nobody else has, and just going chapter by chapter until
And just like tracking how the vibe of the cruise changes as they get farther and farther along.When they turn the coffin into a life preserver.And then just get a temperature for how everyone on the cruise feels.
That would be really incredible, Paul. No, we're here to make a game, Paul.
No, we're going to focus up, and we're going to pan to the ingredient list where I roll my three little d20, and we pick three ingredients, an adjective, a premise, and a type of gameplay, and then we make a game based on them.
Okay, I'm going to roll my little three d20.
I love that the show reinforces that if you're hungry, you start cooking.And when you cook, you have ingredients.It's all thematic.
It is thematic.Sometimes I forget and just call it the prompt list, which is very sloppy of me to not commit fully to the aesthetic.
Making sloppy joes.I don't know.It's all there.
Okay.All three of our prompts came from me, which is difficult to get to right now, actually, because it's all shoulder to shoulder, Patreon subscriber prompts and former guest prompts.Actually, have I?
I can't remember if we've used the prompt that you gave.Let me check.Do you remember the prompt that you gave, Paul?
I'm excited to tell you what it is.Tell me, tell me.It is Booty.
You gave me the game Booty.Why did you do that, Paul?
I don't know.I'm trying to think of any Booty-themed game that I've ever played.
I can't think of one.And weirder yet, that was the premise.
Maybe this is piracy, Jenna.
Oh, yeah, maybe that was why you did it, because it's multiple meanings.That's probably it.Well, that would have been a really funny thing for me to roll.
Yeah, no kidding.You really would have eaten my just desserts on that one.
You'd have eaten your pirate's booty on that.Our adjective, and this is actually really appropriate for our discussion today, our adjective is Moby Dick-alike. Our premise is... How can that be real?
You didn't roll that.How could you roll that?
I rolled that on the list.
I rolled that on the list, Paul.I did not believe that you didn't set the die down.
I added it to the list when we started reading Moby Dick because I thought it would be a fun adjective.
And here we are, Moby Dick-alike Jenna.
I can't believe you're doubting the validity of this important and real show.The premise is whale hunting.That's weird.Crazy through line.The type of gameplay is boat.It just says boat.
Whale hunting, boat, Moby Dick alike. Okay, okay, I'm conceptualizing. I'm entering my creative headspace.I'm getting into brainstorming mode.Yeah, you can feel the storm of the brain.All right, we got turn for radiance.
I hate to say it, but the lock I put on the door is actually a time lock.And it will only unlock when we've made a Moby Dick game, the most ultimate Moby Dick game that best reflects the experience of being Moby Dick.Paul, you're in this with me.
I don't know why you said good luck. I'm not trapped in here with you, Paul.Paul, you're trapped in here with me, bud.
Oh, no.No.OK.Starting to feel a pitfall.
All right.Three words.Moby dick alike.
Yeah.If we wanted to shorten it, we could just say Moby dick, Moby dick, Moby dick.That would be easier.
Let's just say how funny Moby dick alike sounds.Whale hunting and boat.OK.
Yeah. Yeah, that's just what fate handed us, Paul.And I just don't see, I mean, sometimes you start off and fate already has a plan for you.And there are clues along the way that kind of point towards that, but they only become visible in hindsight.
I learned that from reading Moby Dick.
If I was a character in a book or a show, I would be the one who always questions fate, even if it's completely unquestionable.I'd be the one who would say, no, no, it just has to be a coincidence.There's a reasonable explanation for everything.
And then I would fall out of the airlock or something.
I would be the person struggling to figure out whether or not fate can be fought against or if you must only succumb to it.
Oh, and maybe fighting fate is succumbing to fate.Very Grecian.
Yeah, exactly.That's exactly it.The self-fulfilling prophecy.You struggle against it, Paul, but if by struggling you complete it, what does it mean?
Yeah, it means that you're fated the whole time.There's nothing you can do.
Speaking of, let's make this game. So, is there any other steps or processes, or are we just in it now?We've got our materials and we're cooking.
Oh, no, yeah.We do have, there is the option, this is different now from the last time you were on the show.We do have the Grant Howitt Dagger dartboard.
And if you want, we can swap out one of our three, well, I say three, there's basically no premises left. In fact, I might just get rid of the one remaining premise because I do not feel capable of tangling with it.
There are adjectives and gameplay types that we could swap out if you want to swap one of those out.
No, we've got what we need.
No, you don't want to? I don't want to... I could roll another die and we'll just see.
If I want to stick with the same prompts we got, can we?Yeah, no, absolutely.No, Jenna, I think you're right.I'm the character that would always want to try to fight fate because I don't believe in fate.Why don't we go ahead and roll that spooky die?
Uh-huh.Do you want to replace our adjective or a type of gameplay?
What was the type?Was it whale hunting?
The type was just boat.It was just boat game.
Yeah, let's replace the type.
I'm going to roll my d6.Okay, and our Grant Howitt replacement option is, this is so weird, it's fishing.It's a fishing game.That's so crazy.
I kind of feel like I'm fishing.
It's crazy.I feel like I'm fishing for a red herring. I really don't know what to tell you, Paul.I rolled a d6 and fishing was on.How it's wild, wacky, unbelievable.
It became play optionless.If there's anything that's unquestionable here, it's your integrity as a showman.So I don't know why.
I just, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I'm glad we tried, because that could have really, the vibes of the game we make really could have changed to something entirely different, but.
Oh yeah, it could have been a dating game, and that would have been way different.Oh man, it's Stubbs or Flask or Starbucks.Yeah, it's a visual novel style, you know, an affection cage for Stubb as an event.
You sit down and eat whale steak together, yeah, yeah, I would play that.
Paul, I would genuinely, genuinely love to play that game.Ahab is a secret option.
Oh yeah, he's the toughest one to get.I think instead of titled Moby Dick, it would be titled Moby Comma Dick.
It would still start call me Ishmael because that's like that's your opener No matter what game we make it does have to start call me Ishmael that game might exist I feel like I've got a search for it and I'll find out it was made five years ago I hope so because then I can get to play it.
That's ideal for me Okay, whaling.
Okay, Moby Dick alike.Yeah fishing.
Yeah, Moby Dick like whale hunting fishing game.I
We need something in the game that reflects how much whiplash reading Mobita gives you, and how different each segment is.So I'm thinking like there are random events, or there are chapters, and you don't know what type of gameplay?
It's going to be because maybe even like a Mario Party style game where you've got a board and you roll a random event and it might be like testing your knowledge about whale crafting or just literally like a 10 minute lecture where you sit and it plays a video.
I really love the idea of almost a collage-style gameplay.Something similar to Mario Party or WarioWare, but even more abstract.
The whiplash is such an important thing, and that was one of the ones I was like, that has to be in whatever game we make.The experience of going from hunting whales to let me tell you about Baleen is such a unique Moby Dick experience.
And I do love the idea that there are just portions, chapters of this game that are 10 minute lectures on whale biology.
Yes, it's like a Metal Gear style cutscene.
It's exactly, Paul, that was exactly the touchstone.If you had any pushback on this, I was like, are you kidding me?I know you love Metal Gear.How dare you suggest we can't do such a thing?
So I'm glad you were just with me.The only thing you can do with these cutscenes is change your point of view from third person to first person, and that's it.Otherwise, you're locked in.Yeah.
The same way I felt locked in to reading the book sometimes.
Yeah, and locked into this podcast for the next 30 or so minutes.
Really hitting those parallels.
So we have different random sequences.Would there be, so the frame is that we're on a boat and we're trying to get Moby Dick.And that's kind of the thing.So would the master game be you're traveling through the ocean?
And you're trying to read the signals.And maybe each clue is just completely opaque, just totally nonsensical, like it's a weather pattern, or it's a sign.
I just, I don't know, it's hard to wrap my head around how hard Ahab was trying to find Moby Dick and how impossible it was because he is one whale in the ocean.And you might hear rumors, but those rumors might not get you any closer.
And Ahab had this astrological, astronomical system of charting sperm whale troop movements year after year and just crazy shit like that.He was a crazy man.
Yes.One of, again, my favorite parts of the book is towards the end when they are in the area where Moby Dick has very recently been seen.And everybody is keeping their eyes open and spotting him.One day, Ahab comes up and he's like, I smell whales.
I smell whales on the ocean. And it's like, okay, that might be a thing that he can do, because he's Ahab.Yeah, and he wasn't wrong.No, he was exactly dead right.He was absolutely right.He smelled the wick.
He was dead right, all right. No, I'm envisioning a game that you can play multiple times and you have different events that pop up each time and Moby Dick arrives when you fill a doom meter.
And you fill your doom meter by interpreting different signs correctly.
And it either goes up a little bit or a lot and then you just try to race for your doom.And the quicker you get to the higher score you get, I guess.
Yes.Okay.Conceptually, I love that.I love doom meters in general.And I love because A thing about Moby Dick that we really have to latch on to is the symbolism.
Because like you said, so many of the NPCs show up, have ominous things to say, and then disappear.And their only point there is to be symbolic references to Ahab's eventual doom.Yes. So I think that is a good touchstone.
I love the idea of seeing weird things and having to decide.Well, I guess, would you, Ishmael, be the one who decides like, oh, a bird stole your hat, that's a good omen or a bad omen?Like, is that the kind of vibe?
And you're trying to interpret things badly?Or is it like, is this a roguelike?Maybe that's a question.
I think it's a little bit like a roguelike, yeah.It's similar to some of those board games where you've got like a doom meter, but not exactly because it's a video game and it's probably a single player experience, but that kind of tone.
What if it is a situation where, because if you're playing Betrayal at the House of the Hill, a doom roll doesn't happen after every event.
Sometimes things just happen and you move on, but there should be things that rack up the doom meter, like you're describing, and then maybe after certain situations, a dice will be rolled and that'll maybe evoke the presence of Moby Dick himself.
It gets closer and closer.You don't smell it.Maybe instead of the Ishmael, playing Ishmael, of course, maybe instead of Ishmael interpreting things one way or the other, it's you get to choose how to react.
And sometimes the action inexplicably produces a doom-like result.For example, if you go down and you nurse Queequeg, then maybe Queequeg bounces back.He's fine.He's like, I realized I had something to live for.And then he just gets up.
And because of that, they take the coffin, and they string it in back of the boat.And that is a doom symbol.But then maybe you do something else.You witness Stubb eating steak.And it turns out, OK, no, that's pretty normal.
OK, here's my pitch. The doom meter is always racking up because your fate is inevitable.Maybe it's even a fate meter and not a doom meter specifically.
And it can jump up or down.I like fate better.
Yeah.The fate meter can increase or decrease based on the actions that you take.
And so maybe it's a sort of situation where you can decide like, oh yes, I will go down and nurse Queequeg while he's on his deathbed and help him to remember that he has unfinished business on land and therefore he lives.
decreases the fate meter a little bit and makes things less stressful but then it kind of evens out because yeah they do string up the coffin that was made for him on the back of the ship and other ships will now bully you because you've got a coffin hanging off your ship.
Yes, hilariously, yeah. Is there any way to avoid your doom, or do you have to meet your fate every time?Can you complete a two-year whaling tour and the boat is full of sperm whale oil?
And the first mate says, OK, we've got to go back to land, or is the game doomed no matter what?And you've got some objectives that you've got to meet. I think in the spirit of the book, there's no way to avoid your doom.
So the meat of the game would have to be, you're trying to meet some other conditions so that you can feel satisfied with your experience.
What if, what if, after we make the game, we seed a bunch of forum posts and walkthroughs to convince people that there is a way?
Like the ARG, the Moby Dick ARG.
Oh, dark. It's a Moby Dick ARG where we suggest to people that there is a way to escape the game without facing Moby Dick and Ahab dying and everything.And we put it out there.Maybe there's even something in the UI.
Maybe there's an achievement on Steam that's like, beat the game without ever fighting Moby Dick.But it's impossible to get.It physically does not end the game.Gamers are going to have to create DLC or create mods of their own to get through it.
Yeah, I think the game, I mean, there's genuinely it has to end with you meeting Moby Dick.I mean, because that is how the book goes.
For every moment of Ishmael squeezing sperm and having euphoric moments on the top of the deck, there's three moments of people being like, lightning struck our ship and that's a bad omen.Yeah.
So I think even if you play a perfect game, it's impossible.
I was conceptualizing maybe your narrator would have his own fate meter, and then the ship would have its own fate meter, and you'd be trying to fill yours before the other one fills, and then you'd get an epilogue where you're the only one who's bobbing in the ocean after the ship sinks.
And if you don't, then you're gone with the ship. But I don't know, yours feeds into my joy of paranoia and my joy at trolling players that have sometimes unreasonable expectations for all video games.It's annoying to hear that sometimes.
So I do really like that angle.
I think we could do both, because I think you're right.I think having Ishmael have his own personal stakes, I think will really help the player.It'll incentivize the player fighting against fate, which I think is something that we want.
We want them to feel proactive in the experience of the game. but they can't avoid fate.They can only control their personal fate.So I do like the idea that maybe it's like Ishmael dies at the end.Ishmael is picked up by, I think it's the Rachel.
And is safe and alive.And maybe there's a third one where fate unknown.
Oh, I like that.That's compelling.
If you're enjoying big game hunger, you might like my other podcast, Burnt Cookbook Party.It's an actual play Pathfinder game set during a time loop.
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New episodes every other Wednesday. I think we have to.I do think we have to, and it might be a little bit brutal because honestly a lot of the descriptions in the book about the actual whale hunting portions are pretty grim.
They're emotionally complicated at times.
Yes, and success hunting a particular whale was not guaranteed, even for somebody with mythical, preternatural, superhuman athleticism like Queequeg, who can swim 100 meters under the ocean to save a drowning guy, twice.
Still it's not guaranteed to hit a whale, yeah.So I think you're right, I think it's brutally hard, but it's possible if you play it a lot.
Is it, do we want it to be like an abstract minigame?Or do we want it to be like a really physical, like you're there like trying to aim harpoons.
Oh yeah, no, I think that you should have a rowing portion where you're trying to row to the whale.And then you're like pressing the shoulder buttons in a rhythm to row fast enough to catch up.
And then there is a portion where you've got to aim and throw the harpoon.
Yes, and there are quick time events to avoid like falling out of the boat or losing your harpoon into the ocean and things like that.
Yeah, I how man Moby Dick has a pretty great video game structure actually, because like all of that is leading up to the final battle with Moby Dick.Yes, the Moby Dick's the boss fight of the book.
Yes, the unwinnable boss fight.
Yeah.You know, I love in video games, actually, when there's an unwinnable fight.I feel like that's a controversial opinion.And I think games are such cowards for not making the final boss fight unwinnable.
Oh man, the only game I can think of that even comes close is Shadow of the Colossus, where you get through the 16 colossi and then there's kind of a weird sequence where you become a colossus.
And it's technically like a cutscene boss, but it really feels like an unbeatable boss.
Should we have a secret fourth ending for Ishmael where he becomes a Moby Dick?Where he becomes the green whale or something?
Maybe you just cut to Moby Dick's perspective and you become him.
I love that.A playable Moby Dick portion, yeah.
Okay.Okay.I think that's actually ideal.We'll have to figure out what special omens.There have to be some special omens that you get throughout.Maybe you get that secret ending if you never skip any of the whale fact portions.
Yes, because they are going to be long and weird and excruciating.
Oh, yeah.They're going to be using lots of video reels from 200 years ago.Ew.
It's going to be a lot of still images that we've really roughly animated, like flash animated.Oh, yeah.
I love that papercraft style.
Yes, exactly.It's going to be the most insane.It's going to be like when you go to a museum and they've had a little bit of a budget to animate letters popping up on the screen, like Ken Burns style.There are going to be sections like that.
Each one of them is going to have a different vibe.I think in my mind, they are almost like the multimedia collage portions of Madoka Magica.
Oh man, that's a great touchstone.Those are weirdly compelling.
They're, I think they're so, they're so beautiful and they're so uncanny.
And I think it's going to be such a, I think it's going to be such an insane change of pace from the really earnest, straightforward, like 3D portions of the whale hunting.I think they're going to be a good flavor breaker.
A very different flavor, flavor that is just opposite and a completely different way from the event portions and the action portions.Okay.Okay.That's good.
And I think to get to unlock the secret ending where you get to do a playable Moby Dick mini game sort of experience, you have to demonstrate exceptional empathy with the whales.
Oh, that's tough because the whole book sets you up to think of whales as brutes.Calls them brutes with a cunning, savage intellect.A weird kind of intelligence the entire time.
And I think all of the characters in museum portions, which are not real knowledge, it would be knowledge of the time.
Yeah, it would still be hugely inaccurate.
All of that would be reinforcing that whales are these biblical monsters, the leviathans of the ocean.So what opportunities would there be to demonstrate the empathy?
Because it's not going to be when you're pulling a whale carcass to the boat and diving in for sperm whale oil.
no no i think maybe there there could be little touches like maybe there's like a carving minigame where you get a chunk of whale ivory because there's just fucking whale ivory everywhere oh my god what is the name for that there's a specific name for like the craft of ivory carving
Oh, Scrimshaw?Scrimshaw, that's it.Scrimshaw, OK.
Yeah, the Scrimshaw minigame.OK, yeah.
And maybe there's a couple of different options of what you can carve, and one of them is a whale.
And it's like, if you carve the whale out of this Scrimshaw to make a little white whale figurine for yourself, maybe that's one of the things that you can do to edge yourself towards the Moby Dick ending.
I love it.I do think that you should get a scorecard, not really score, but a final tally taking at the end when you die or you don't that shows what attributes you got over the course of the ship.
If you sympathized the man who lost his son in the ocean and things like that, you'd get some kind of title or label and you'd have attributes like if you always fell into the ocean and got salty.
Or if you didn't eat enough, or whatever, then you'd have different personal ratings.And that could be the scorecard for your run.Yeah.And if you unlock the right one, then yeah.Then you're Moby Dick.
Is that?OK.I think that's a great idea.And I love when games give you adjectives as descriptors for how you played.I just love when games do that.
Should that be one at the very end of the game, or should it be a super disruptive, extremely gamey element that happens at the end of every chapter?
Where it's like, even the chapters that are just like a collage, a museum exhibition, at the end of it, it's like, S-ranked for watching that PowerPoint presentation.
Oh, yeah, no, for sure.It should pop up your running total.Maybe not at the end of each chapter.No, there's no better time for it.Yeah.At the end of each chapter, it would show you your running total, and you could scroll up or down and click Next.
But it would be great way to reflect on your passage.
OK.I do think the museum portions should be skippable, but that's a trap.And there are penalties for doing that.
God, just like my work training. I like those terms and conditions saying you have to scroll to the bottom.You still don't read it.Whatever.No, that's good.I like it.I like games that trick me.
It always frustrates me in the moment, but later I'm like, yeah. No, I deserved it.
Yeah, that's how I feel.It's like, oh, there were subtle things I did during the game that I didn't even realize I was doing that now have consequences.
Because I think so much about games are the thoughtful choices that you make actively in how you engage with the gameplay.
So games that take the secret content of the other things that you're doing and turn that into other gameplay features, I just love that.
Me too, and I love when it's not something that would be immediately obvious.
Talking about Metal Gear, one of the things I like in Metal Gear Solid 3 was there's a scene when you are near death and you go to this inner world where you're walking through a river and there are ghosts for each of the soldiers that you've killed.
And if you're on a murder run, then it's just choked with guys who are like staggering toward you like zombies.
But if you've got a peaceful run where you're trying to get all the secret camo for just stunning people without killing them, then there might be one who died in a cutscene.
And that kind of thing is like, you don't always think about what the differences are until you have multiple playthroughs where you read about it.And it's not really impactful in the story just in terms of how you played the game.
Speaking of Shadow of the Colossus, The Last Guardian, the sequel to it, had a similar mechanic where you could pet and talk to and play with and engage your giant guardian.
The game didn't explicitly tell you that this is a thing you should do, but if you don't do it, you're a monster.It has gameplay repercussions depending on how much of a bond you made with your little digital pet.
Wow, wow, I love that.How could anyone play a game like that and be like, oh man, I just want to beat the game.I don't want to do any of that.I don't want to pet my creature.That's horrible.
Yeah, it's like, yeah, why are you playing this game?What are you hoping to get out of this experience if not spending time with this cute giant creature?
Yeah.So I think there will be little opportunities like that kind of sprinkled throughout the game, where it's like there's like that sequence where they get trapped in the Lake of Whales, where they get surrounded by all this stuff.
Oh my god.Yes.Weird.It's so weird.That is one of the chapters I feel like I know how to deal with the least.
And that's saying something with this book.But they just, yeah, when they're trapped with all the mothers and the babies, And if I remember correctly, I think Queequeg pets the baby whales, right?Doesn't he like reach in and pet the babies?
Yeah, one just swims right up.And it's like, oh, what an innocent creature, you know?And boy, boy, boy.Weird, complex feelings with that one that I haven't processed.Yeah.
Yeah.I think in moments like that, you'll have a button prompt that's like, pet? And you can do it or not.And then again, if you do it, you're building that little empathy with these sweet whales.
The secret empathy meter.I love that, Jenna.That's really nice.Speaking of whale empathy, is there going to be any kind of relationship tracking between Ishmael and the rest of the crew?Because the relationships in that book were weirdly segmented.
You only really see Ishmael develop a strong connection with Queequeg, and that really happens before he even gets on the boat.
And it goes into a lot of detail on the other members of the ship and their relationship with each other, but not always with the narrator.Sometimes he's just like a ghost.
But in the game, would you have different relationship meters and how you choose to spend time with them?Might not change the ending too much, but it might.
illuminate more of the individual stories, and then because you're playing multiple times, kind of like Hades, where you might not know what the cook's whole thing is this time, but maybe learn more about what the first mate's thing is this time.
Yeah, I like that.I think that's a great idea, and will give us a little bit of a structure to kind of explore all of the weird personalities on the ship.Obviously, it won't be like the full ship.
I think the full ship has like 30 people or something like that.
Yes, but I do like the idea that there is a handful that we've highlighted.It'll probably be the three harpoonists and the three captainsmen.Yes, the mates.Yes, that's probably good.There should definitely be a secret romance option with Kwee Kwek.
It'll be the only non-canon thing where he's sneaking Oh my god, it's barely barely non-canon Jenna
Truly, got the portion where Kwee Kweg is on the whale carcass, like pulling out, I don't even remember what he's doing specifically, but they've got the monkey tail that's attached to Ishmael, and it's like the two of them are connected, and there's that whole portion where Melville is like, this is like an umbilical cord, or like a marriage bond between these two, and where if one should fall into the ocean, the other will surely follow, and it's just like, come on.
STACEY It's like the fifth or eighth chapter when the innkeeper says, well, I can give you a room, but there's only one bed and there's somebody else in there too.Is that okay?And Ishmael's like, sure.
And then Kwika gets in there, takes off all his clothes, unclear whether he's got anything on.He just climbs in and then they sleep together like that.And it's nice.And Ishmael feels like a husband holding his wife.There's no subtext there.
There's nothing to question.
There's no relationship.And when they wake up in the morning and they're spooning, again, explicitly, literally canon in the book, when they wake up spooning, and he goes on about how comfortable and how loving and how wonderful this is.
Uh, no subtext there.That's just text.And a couple chapters later, when they clasp hands and agree to be married under Queequeg's religious belief.Again, that's just the canon of this book.
And it's wonderful, Jenna, it's delightful.
Yeah, I think that should be a scene, but you do have to get to a certain point in Queequeg's romance meter to get that scene.
So it'll have to happen on the ship.
That really sets a lot of motivation for people replaying it, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I think that's gonna be a big draw, the Queequeg romance for sure.
Oh man, this is gold, this is gold, Jenna.I wanna play this game.The book is pretty racist. I can do without that part.
There's some stuff in it.Yeah, it is.It's interesting to read that comparable to works that were written like decades later, like Lovecraft's stuff, which is also racist, but in way different ways.
I do think in his way Melville was very open-minded and very much like, you know, empathetic.I think inevitably it suffers from, yeah, some of the energy of the time, some regrettable uses of the word savage.
No, I think you're right.I think every character who, on one hand, he borrows the language of racism that existed at the time, every character without framing is a very sympathetic character.They're all some of the most human characters
in the novel.And that's important.I think it does really show the attitude of the writer, and it does show the context and influences of the time period that he was writing in.The scientific, God, what's the word I'm looking for?
Unscientific science about whales was kind of equal to the other ideas in the book.Boy, and the way that he tried to use phrenology to talk about how
Queequeg was truly noble at heart because he was chronologically equal to the other noble masters of the era.He could have been a George Washington in skull.
He could have been a George Washington!The George Washington bit fucking threw me for a loop.It is one of those things where it's like he is trying to use the racist science of the era to be like, No.Queequeg is a noble, smart man.
He is equal to George Washington, which is the highest praise of the era, I have to assume.
It is that kind of thing where it's like, it's definitely racist, but it is so much less racist than a lot of other books from the era that I've read. And I think, I think Melville himself had so many experiences with so many people around the world.
And like so many people, like of the kinds of people that he talks about in the book, that I think really colors his opinion of who these people are as individuals.
So I, if that is something that is keeping you from reading the book, I would recommend just diving in and sort of taking it step by step.
Yeah, yeah, agreed.I don't need a phrenology minigame.
You know, maybe we could insert, maybe one of the historical museum interludes is about phrenology and its racist origin and how it's used in really weird ways.
Oh boy, would we use some of the museum portions to debunk bad science?That would be incredible.That would really lean into the edutainment.
And that's how we'll get funding, Paul.Yes!I mean, yeah, that's tricky because my instinct is to want to replicate the insane science of the era of the book as a tribute to Melville.Because in its own way,
It is a weirdly useful text to understand how people thought about whales and what people who were the most familiar with whales on a day-to-day basis, their understanding of it compared to our modern understandings.
I think that's all really fascinating.But it might not be a terrible idea to interject and update all of the science of that.
Perhaps a few key portions.Would something be lost?
I don't know. No, I think you're right.I think maybe we just have a disclaimer.I don't know if we need one.But the important part of the asides is that it puts you in the mindset of the world you're in.And it's part of the immersion.
And you don't want to lose the immersion.So yeah, you're right.
OK.OK.We're going to keep it historical.Keep it OG.
I think the opening cut scene is the sermon.I forget the pastor's name.Out of all the names in the books, I remember the ones that were repeated, and he was there and gone.
But that is the opening cut scene, and it's got fire and lightning and thunder and the ocean and the story of Jonah. Then it sends you off.No, this game feels great.Boy, what a winner.Are we missing anything?
Are we missing any important gameplay parts?Or?
Let me ask you.So one of the things I really enjoyed about this book that was also so crazy and so unexpected to me was the chapters that are like plays.
Yes.Oh, god, I'm so glad you brought that up.Yes.
There are whole chapters of this book that are written as stage plays.And there's not a lot, just enough that you forget that they're there.
And then suddenly, there's a chapter where you just go through like every ship mate, and they each have their own little scenes and their own little personality blurbs.And like, you just go through it.How are we going to adopt that?
Could, no, do you have any instinctive ideas about how to adapt that?
The first thing I came up with is that you would build them using dialogue selections, and it would literally be portrayed as a passage of writing.
And your selections for different people would be based on how much you've filled out your relationship meter with them so far.
Ooh.Okay.I love that as a secret bellwether progress report for how far you've gotten with these characters.Although if we did it that way, I guess it'd have to be a secret hidden relationship meter, which I could give or take.
It might be nice to be explicit.
I don't know.It's so hard for me to get away from the actual writing in that.I feel like showing a scene where characters are talking is less than just literally showing text that crawls as you proceed through it.
Okay, that is really funny.My pitch, I love your pitch, so I think we should do it.My pitch was going to be FMV.
Oh, what?Okay, no.Oh, my God.When you're talking about whiplash, I don't know if I've had a video game experience that gave me more whiplash than some of the 90s CD games.
Yes, the idea of actually staging in like a black box theater with like 30 people.Each one with like one or two lines of dialogue and we just like rapid fire do them all.And that is one of the chapters that was gonna be my pitch.
Okay, no, you're right.Seeing that my jaw would drop, it would hit the desk and it would not go up until it was over.
Do you ever play any of those puzzle games where, like, Seventh Guest or Myst, where you would solve this awkward 3D puzzle, and then it would cut to this movie, and you'd say, well, what is happening?What am I playing?
That's a very important feeling for our game.That's really good.Yes.OK.
Yeah.The sort of weird, like, pre-rendered 3D cut scene videos you get when you played the correct keys on the piano.Yeah.Exactly.
Yeah.Yeah.Oh, boy.OK.No, that's good. I'll save my dialogue selection just for the character events where you can either build your fate meter or let it back down.I really like them.
I feel great about what we've made.Is there anything that you feel like is in the book that hasn't been represented in our game?
We've got the historical asides.We've got the character interaction narratives.We have the random events that can either build or reduce the ship's fate while potentially increasing your fate to unlock an epilogue where you survive.
And those are the things like where you meet the cult ship where they've selected a guy who believes he's an angel from heaven.That kind of just weird interaction.
That was another NPC boat interaction that I really enjoyed, where they were like, we've got a letter for one of your dudes.And they were like, that guy's dead.And he's like, well, I'm not keeping this letter for you.He tries to pass it over.
And then this weird heretical prophet throws it back.
OK.Bonkers. Totally crazy.Yeah.I don't know what that chapter did other than show that everyone on the high seas is fucking mad.
And that's borne out by genuinely every other ship that they meet.
I love the whale hunting minigame.I think the disgusting whale processing needs to be a minigame because it was such a grotesque, objectionable part of reading the book.
that has to be presented somehow.I don't know if you need to play a game where you dismember a carcass and fish out the oil, but something.
I think that's it.I think what you've described, I mean, the book is so explicit with how everything happens and how it's all chopped up that I do think it'll have to be part of it.
But if we wanted to, I mean, we could always, I've been very much imagining a 3D kind of almost a first person perspective game.
I think there should be a VR version.Yeah. Whoa.
Whoa.With realistic and un-turn-offable motion.
Ocean motion.Ocean motion.
TM.Ocean motion TM.I think if there's really nasty, like the part where they like scarf the whale to remove all the blubber.
I think that could transform into like a PlayStation 1, low-poly, really abstract minigame to sort of cut down on how grotesque that is.Although again, maybe that's just flinching away from the truth of the whaling business, Paul.
I think we can do it a little abstractly, and you would still be there.You would still have the feeling.
OK, I like that.Is there anything else that we feel like this game needs?
I think there should be minigame variety.I don't want to lose the WarioWare-like feeling completely.I think different parts should have very different styles of success.
Like when you're trying to squeeze the lumps out of the sperm whale oil, and you sometimes hold hands with the guy next to you, that's a minigame.
Yes, when you have to scrub the giant pots where they render the oil down on a massive decktop furnace.That's one where you get in and you have to scrub, scrub, scrub, scrub, scrub, scrub.
Yes, does our game have motion controls?Do we play it with a Wiimote?
Yes, it should definitely have motion controls.
Yes.There should be a portion when your compass breaks and you have to do a point-and-click mystery style adventure where you find all the pieces to rebuild the compass.
Oh, yeah.Oh, man.That was another surreal scene just showing what an actually accomplished Seaman Ahab was, equal to his madness almost.
The fact that the lead of At That Very End has like five sequences of insane stuff, super vital stuff on the ship breaking, and then Ahab having to be like, yeah, I've been a whaling captain for decades now, so I just know how to fix this.
And we're not going to stop because we're close to the whale. we're just going to have to do with my weird Ahab DIY versions of these things.That was all fascinating.
The reinforcing of Ahab's competency before his final ultimate fate, it was fascinating.
Love it.Boy, the hysteria and euphoria, the weightless feeling of reading the last sequence of the book is starting to come back upon me.There's not much like it.
genuinely just an insane experience.It's a difficult book, but it's ultimately just so rewarding.
The same way our game is gonna be difficult and rewarding.Yeah, okay, no, I feel like we've summed it up.I think we've completed it.
Do we have a name for this game?Is it just gonna be Moby Dick?
No.I think you're right.I think that's too obvious.
Yeah, our game is too interactive just to call it Moby Dick.
What's the name of the ship?It's the Pequod?
It could be like the last flight of the Pequod.
Well, I like that because it's a game that you can replay, and it encourages replaying.But each time is the final journey of the Pequod.
Yeah, flight is not the right word.
Yeah?OK, let's finesse that.Should it be like the final journey, or?
It should be like the fate of the Pequod.
The final fate of the Pequod.
Okay.The final fate of the Pequod.
I think it should feel like a horror game.I think you should feel like fate is encroaching and it's unkind.
I mean, I think that's accurate to the book because it really does.You hit a certain point and the omens come so fast and they're so undeniable and they're so potent.It is just like there was no other option.This was how it was always going to be.
Yes. Yeah, talking about subtle gameplay elements that reflect your choices, I think there should be an equally unsubtle one where things are creepier as your fate meter is approaching the end.
Like it should be like visibly darker, there's like a haze around the edge of the screen.
Or just Ahab looks crazier.
Oh, God, yeah, okay.Yeah, more unbalanced, physically unbalanced.Maybe his ivory leg gets longer and longer, so his character model tilts more and more.
Oh, boy.A real visual emblem of the insanity, which I think is really important for this adaptation.
Final fate of the Pequod, wow, boy.
Do you want to, on the record now, commit to the next giant book that you're going to read that I'm also going to read concurrently?Or should we save that for offline as a secret?
tangentially said that I was going to read some Murakami, but I started one, and it wasn't really sucking me in.So I don't know if I can commit to that right now.I don't have anything else on my mind to read.I started, what is it called?
Gravity's Rainbow, and that also was not sucking me in.So I don't want to commit to that one.Yeah, I don't have one.Do you?Do you want to commit to a book that then I will read?
I was going to pitch Tales of Genji.Whoa.
The Japanese historical mammoth.Oh, wow.I've heard that one's wild.I've heard it really reflects the sensibilities of the time.
Yes, it is also one of those just tombstone books where it's just like, it is massive and I think it's very intimidating, which makes it a good option for this.Here's what I'll say.The email for this show is biggamehungerpod at gmail.com.
If you have a suggestion of a good, absolutely mammoth, comparable to Moby Dick novel that you want to recommend to us, email it or or at me on social media and and give me your recommendations for hugely rewarding but hugely long endeavors.
I am leaning towards like an Anna Karenina war and peace like some sort of Russian novel maybe.
Ooh, okay, no, I have read Crime and Punishment, and I would say that it was differently rewarding, but it was certainly more rewarding than my expectation based on things I'd heard.I would love to do some Russian realism.
That's high on my list.Yeah, we are accepting your recommendations, and it's at biggamehungerpod at gmail.com.Email us or find me on social media.
Like a pod of whales, Jenna?
Fuck, yeah, exactly like a pod of whales.Paul, do you have anything to plug?
Yeah, I'd love to plug the actual play podcast that I'm in.It's called Burnt Cookbook Party.It's a pathfinder game where four heroes of varying skills, attractiveness, and stupidity race against time to stop a war.
And who do you play on that show?
I play an elf named Zelf.
And what's this whole deal?Do you know it offhand?Can you bring it up now?
Oh, for sure.Yeah.No, he's an elven battle chef carving a name for himself in the high stakes world of magical cooking.
Yes.And I am also on that show and I play Astro Blast Buffet.I don't have to tell Oracle who is exactly who she says she is.
Didn't even have to look.You've said it 80 times now. is great.I'm super proud of it.
It's entering its third year, which, you know, when we started, if you asked, do you think this will run three years, I would have said, an actual play running three years?That's crazy.No, I think it keeps getting better, better than ever.
Even if you don't like actual plays, I think this is a great show.I would almost say the humor is so absurd that if you like media like Taskmaster,
Yeah, yes.You would like Burnt Cookbook Party.
Almost more than I'd say if you like actual plays, you'll like it because it is surprising.
We have permission from fans of our show who also love Homestuck to say if you like Homestuck, you'll probably like Burnt Cookbook Party.I don't know what it means to say that the Burnt Cookbook Party is like Taskmaster and Homestuck.
It feels like those are so good.
I think it's accurate.I think this episode of Big Game Hunger has the most similar overlapping vibe with Bird Cookbook Party.So if you like what we've done here today, you should listen to BCBP.It's a really good show.
As always, I will have links to that show in the show notes for this episode, as well as the emails, so you can email us recommendations. Big Game Hunger is a part of the Multitude Collective, a podcast created and hosted by me, Jenna Steber.
If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe and also spread the word so other people can enjoy it as well.Visit my merch store at bit.ly slash jennamerch, all lowercase.
And to support the show directly, subscribe at patreon.com slash thejenna.Every month, subscribers can submit prompts that get added to the ingredient list.We didn't use any of them today, because that's not what fate had in store for us.
Help guide the podcast and our brainstorming at patreon.com slash the Jenna.Paul, what's one word, adjective, gameplay type, premise, et cetera that you would like to add to the ingredient list?
Give me a sec.Give me one sec.
Take your time.I know it's hard because Moby Dick and Moby Dick alike and type of gameplay Moby Dick were already on the list.So and those are the most obvious ones to add.
But obviously they were they were definitely already on the list and we used them.So you can't read them.
Under premise or adjective or gameplay type?
Okay.Paul, thanks for joining me.
Thanks for having me, Jenna.
For this very normal episode of Big Game Hunger. Thank you, listener, for enjoying Big Game Hunger.And don't forget to wishlist the final fate of the P-Quad on Steam.Release date, when it's fated.So, to be determined, comma, by fate.
To be fated. Here, I'll just unlock the door real quick.
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