If you're a pop culture junkie who loves TV, film, music, comedy, and other really important stuff, then you've come to the right place.Get ready and settle in for Classic Conversations, the best pop culture interviews in the world.That's right.
We circled the globe, so you don't have to.If you're ready to be the king of the water cooler, then you're ready for Classic Conversations with your host, Jeff Dwoskin.
Martha, thank you so much for that amazing introduction.You get the show going each and every week.And this week was no exception.Welcome everybody to episode 342 of Classic Conversations.As always, I am your host, Jeff Dwoskin.
Great to have you back for what's sure to be an episode that will have you dancing in the streets.My guest today is power couple, Mickey and Michelle Stevenson.
Mickey Stevenson was one of the principal architects of the Motown Sound, put together the Funk Brothers.He's got stories on Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, and so much more.Michelle is the CEO and founder of Interverse Enterprises.
Together, they have collaborated on a powerful song. put Kamala in the white house.We're going to talk all about that amazing collaboration.And we're diving deep with Mickey into the world of Motown.
Get ready for some Martha Reeve stories, Stevie wonder and more.You're going to love it.And that's coming up in just a few seconds.And in these few seconds last week, Adrian's med proved Greece too is still the word.
We talked all about his amazing career.Do not miss that interview, but right now, Do not miss this deep dive into the world of Motown, Mickey and Michelle's amazing collaboration, and so much more.Enjoy.All right, everyone.
I'm excited to introduce my next guest.It's rare that I have two people on at the same time.I'm excited.I have Mickey and Michelle Stevenson. Michelle is the CEO and founder of Interverse Enterprises.
Mickey, one of the principal architects of the Motown Sound.I could go on and on and on.Just being from Detroit, that was extremely exciting for me.They have collaborated on a new song.We're going to talk about that.Put Kamala in the White House.
Michelle's got a powerful voice.Oh, my God.Oh, God. Yeah, they sent me the song and I was like, I started listening to it and I'm like, oh, this is good.You know, it's like, this is really good.It was like, which is not surprising.
I mean, you know, Mickey wrote some, it was part of some of the most.
You was like, who's singing that song?
Michelle, is this, how much, how many other things have you sung?Is this your, like, what's your singing background?
My singing background, I grew up in a family that's very musically inclined.However, this is the first song that I sang professionally.
I mean, I have sang on some of Mickey's stuff in the past, like for plays and demos and things like that, but this is the first time coming out.This is my coming out song.Yeah.
My dad's a vocal coach, and my mom and my sisters, everyone in my family sings.
All right.So when you met Mickey, did you know he was a music legend then, given your musical background?
Well, when I first met him, I didn't know he was a musical legend until he told me.And I was like, OK.I told you?Yeah.When we met at that place, you told me who you were.Oh, at that club.
But you look so pretty, I kind of slid over to you to make a conversation.Yeah, that's fine.
And then when he told me who he was, I usually ask myself or spirit, you know, why did you put this specific person in my life?And at that time I was writing music.So I said, well, maybe it's for that reason.But God had another plan.
I know.It's amazing.So Michelle, how did Mickey just kind of slip that in the conference?How do you slip in that you're like, oh, he's guy and responsible for probably so many songs that we all love.How does it just come up in Congress?
He's like, girl, you know who I am?No, I'm just kidding.He slid a couple of things in the conversation.Actually, I'm a vegan.I was a vegetarian at the time, and it looked like he was eating something healthy, and we started talking about food.
So he found a way to bring in music while we were talking about food.It was like a club, and one of his artists was there at the time.
Yeah, that's what happened.
So we started talking and he gave me his card.But like I said, I was like, maybe it's because I'm writing music.The universe connected me with this guy.But he had another plan.
It's always just interesting to me how we learn about each other's backgrounds.He's like, oh, you like food?You know who I know who likes food?Smokey Robinson.What?You know?
Yeah, and I told him I was vegetarian.He's like, oh, I'm vegetarian too.He was just saying whatever I wanted to hear.
Okay, so, song, put Kamala in the White House.Mickey, it's an offshoot of a song that is in one of your musicals?
Yes.I had a musical going called, what was the name of the show?
Sing it from the Heart.Billie Holiday, Josephine Baker, Donna Washington, Mary Jackson, Bessie Smith, Dorothy Dandridge, Eartha Kitt, Lena Horne.And these women met as they passed, they began to meet each other.
And so in their conversation, they were talking about the president was coming in, whatever was happening at that time.And one of the girls said that, you know what, if they had a woman in the White House, this whole thing would be better.
This was years ago.And so I wrote a song for her to sing for the woman in the White House.And all of a sudden, here we are today.Here it is.So I changed the words of some of the lines of the song to fit the moment.But it was amazing.It was amazing.
And it was almost like Mickey prophesied that one day there will be a woman in the White House.And it's really interesting how he said it was put a woman in the White House.
And then some years ago, a couple of years ago, there was a congresswoman who was running.And to me, she reminded me of a female Martin Luther King.So we kind of did the song for her.Not kind of.We did the song for her.
But when Mickey found out that Kamala Harris was running, I feel like he pulled out the red carpet.We got background singers.He rearranged, re-shaped the song.He also, I was like, I think that you should put your signature on this one.
He said, what do you mean?I said, the horns are dancing in the street.So we really put some colors on it for the vice president.And that's what we'll be doing in November.We'll be dancing in the streets.
Have you been able to get the song to Kamala or her campaign to hear it?
Well, we have a PR team who's in action.So every day we're posting things up.We have a TikTok page called Team Kamala.So that is our hopes that the song would get to the White House.So we're in action.And I want to say on top of that, it's
We want to respect where everyone's at because Kamala is not everybody's person and that's okay.So we want people to be fully self-expressed.That's just Mickey and I expression of the candidate that we love and a contribution, what we want to share.
So it's not about money.It's about making a difference.
It's about getting out and vote, please.Please vote.
That's all we can do is get out there and vote.Yes.Great message.All right.So how did Michelle, did you have to convince Mickey to let you sing it?Of course.Mickey was all like, hey, Michelle.
Well, when I met Mickey early on, even though I said that I was writing songs the way I know how, I never had lessons or anything.I wouldn't sing in front of Mickey in the beginning because I'm like, oh, he'd been around Diana Ross.
He'd been around celebrities and big people.So I would hum songs, but I really wouldn't sing.And then being around him and really seeing how he is with people and
his passion for music and his passion to bring out people's gifts, I started feeling more comfortable and I would do a little, but I wouldn't really let go.And so I said, I want you to give me lessons.
He's like, well, you got to just let down everything that you already know about singing and be really fully self-expressed and be big.And it doesn't matter if you hit the wrong note.
So when I started feeling really safe and comfortable, he's like, you really have a voice, you know, let's create something.So with Kamala in the White House today, it really came natural that I was the girl.
To fulfill on, you know, what he wanted in that song.
It took a lot of pressure off of me.See, because I'd have to keep going over and over and over.I had opportunity to do it one time and make it work.
Mickey has a track record of being able to pick out talent.Yeah, it's his gift.I'm sure he wouldn't have given you that honor if he didn't feel you were amazing.
Yeah.Then I was thinking in the beginning, I don't know if I can do it the way he wants me to do it.But just feeling safe and following his guidance, it just fell in place.
Then after I started to really sing it and the meaning and what we're singing about, so it became my own.
I like that.Write that down, baby.He has it recorded.
We've captured it forever.
You're good.That's good.How long have you guys been married?We've been married going on three years, but we've been together for about seven years.I had to make sure he was the right guy.I'm just kidding. About seven years, really.
We both wanted to take our time to really get to know each other and make sure that we're spiritually aligned and all of that.So we really took our time with this.
I said this is going to be the last one, so it's got to be right.You know what I'm saying?
Yeah.Mickey has decided he has settled down for good.
Now we realize we're really for each other in terms of purpose.
Some people get married for different reasons, but to me, it's really important to know your purpose and what you're going to accomplish and what God puts two people together to accomplish on the earth and the planet to do his work.Very fortunate.
What else are you guys going to do together musically?
I'm going to have a couple more babies.
No, I'm just kidding.You know, we really love people.So we're committed that people know the importance of marriage.And I think we got to a place where we were able to
get over some hurdles and really help people with marriage and the purpose of marriage and the importance of staying together, the two becoming one, more music.More music?I got to do another song?
No, no, no, just kidding, just kidding.
He's already, you know, been looking through his catalog and saying, oh, you know, things like that.So whatever really the Spirit is leading us to do, we want to be God-led.
And you want to add to that, Mickey, what we're going to do other than more babies?
Yeah.Did she say more babies?
We're gonna have to end the interview early.
I'm doing an incredible show.It's called Azusa Revival, where the Holy Spirit came down in 1906.This is absolutely true.You can check it out on Azusa Street.And the Holy Spirit came in.People came from all over the country.
They would walk into a certain area of the church, and they would be healed. They got out of wheelchairs, they started speaking in tongues, talking to each other in different languages, and it grew and grew.It's the most incredible thing ever.
I turned that into a musical.And I really say it's more than a musical, but that was to bring the moment back.It's absolutely fascinating.So we're working on that.Azusa revival.
That's his current play that he's working on.He's also going to do the one, Showgirls.I will sing it from the heart, the one we just talked about.But the first one you talked about was 1906.It's recorded.You can look on YouTube.
It's about an African-American man, William Seymour.That is something that we are working on together as well.Yeah.
That's amazing.I see that smile on your face.I like that.I see it.
It's nice to see how much you guys love not only smushed right next to each other but like working together clearly and vibing off each other's creative and spiritual energy.
You know, as I was kind of going down, I was going down a Mickey rabbit hole before we talked because I'm from a suburb of Detroit, but I like to say if you're from Michigan and in this area, of course we always say Detroit because that's what everyone knows.
So Motown, Hitsville, USA.I was just the other day telling someone like, what do you mean you've never been down to the Motown museum? And so it was like when Jesse texted me and was like, hey, I got a couple of folks for you to talk to.
He's like, you know, he was an A&R man.I'm like, okay.And then I look, I Google it.I'm like, oh, wait, wait, wait.He didn't mention he was Barry Gordy's A&R man for Motown right at the beginning there.
I mean, like, I was just like, so I got your book.I didn't have much time before this interview, but I pounded through that book.I was like, it was, it's amazing.So Michelle, let me ask you a question.
What story does Mickey keep telling that you're at a party or something and then you just got to tune out because you've heard it so many times?
One accent in there, one way or another.
I'm like, again?No, I'm kidding.Actually, there's several and actually I don't want to tune them out because the stories are so beautiful.I love his story about how he discovered Stevie Wonder in the beginning when he came to Motown.
And when he describes the story, he talks about how Stevie was on the drums and the piano. He kind of mimics it.So he's a very vivid writer and a vivid speaker.So you feel like you can see, feel, and hear it.So that's what I love about that story.
And I love the Marvin Gaye story.But I do want to add, you did ask me this, one thing that I'm really, really proud of with Motown,
is that the story that when Mickey tells about when the segregation, when white people were on this side, black people on that side, and there was like polices with bully clubs, and you stay over here and you stay over there.
But when the music started and everybody was singing, how everybody came together, even the polices with the bully club.So I'm really inspired by that, what they did on the planet through music during civil rights.That's something I'm inspired by.
That's amazing.It never fails.Amazing.
Yes, completely inspiring.And there was there was a part in the book where I was reading it.
We were talking about the Supremes being on Ed Sullivan's show and breaking down the racial barriers, how Motown had a huge part in breaking down the racial barriers for TV on TV.I thought that was so great.
They were so popular that you just couldn't deny it.It didn't matter what color they were.It was just like.
Oh, yeah.I mean, yeah. And Michelle, you know, when I say tune out, I was just joking.I was just picturing my wife where she like, you hear this.Yeah.
Yeah.I mean, he has some moments.I'm like, okay, now, okay.The story's over.
Mickey, what was it like hearing Stevie Wonder for the first time?
Stevie Wonder?It was amazing.I had the opportunity to meet him by chance because Clarence Paul was one of the employees I had.We worked together, Clarence Paul and I. We were the Sam and Dave of Detroit, you know, the Sam and Dave do it.
And when I got the job as A&R man, I called Clarence because Clarence Paul could take any song and make it work.That's the kind of creator he was, his talent gift.When we were putting out our albums,
we'd have the first song released, the second release.The rest of the stuff in the album was terrible for me.So I told Barry, I said, listen, I got to get somebody that make the albums sound good.Yes, we got to hit record on it.Yes, yes.
But the other six or seven songs, they got to be about something.So I hired Clarence to come in because he could make anything work in the world of singing.So I said, Clarence, I'll give you a job.
I want you to check every album and any songs that don't work, you fix it or record another one."So our albums have some quality to them other than the first and second record.So he took the job.
After a while, he came to me and he said, man, can I record, produce one of the Four Tops or the Jims?I said, I can't do that.I mean, I think they got producers.I can't.Well, chew on.I mean, I can't do that.He said, well, I'm just doing fill-ins.
So I want to do something else.So I said, well, We'll talk about it next week, and I'll see if I can come up with some idea for you.In the meantime, the following week showed up.
I'm trying to figure out, I got to let him go because I can't take the hollering dozer off or smoke you off of the main artist.That's not going to happen.You're going to fire him?In a nice way.Okay.
So we came to the meeting, he came to the meeting with me.He said, but before we get started, there's something I want to tell you about.I said, what's that?He said, I want to leave.
I felt comfortable because he brought up the subject, so I got a nice way of getting out of this thing.He said, but before I go, I got this artist that I found that I want to bring in and do a couple of songs on.
So I thought that was a relief for me again.I said, hey, no problem.He said, one more thing.He said, he's blind.I said, he's blind?He said, yeah.I said, he said, but you said, you know, your words are fine.
You said I could bring him in and do a couple of songs.I said, but you didn't tell me he was blind.He said, well, I asked you first so that you wouldn't tell me no second. I said, OK, man, OK.He said, one more thing.I said, what's that?
He said, he's about 10 years old, 11 years old.I said, wait a minute, let me get this straight.10-year-old blind kid?Are you crazy?He said, no.He said, remember your word you told me.I said, OK, Clarence, you bring him in.
I said, let me tell you this.Every time I see that kid, I want to see you.I want to see you hand in hand, locked up, period.Anything happens, he fall down the stairs or something, Barry's going to kill me, and I'm going to kill you.
Anyway, move the story on a little bit.I'm in the studio.We're having a session.It's winding down.Guys are playing.They're just tuning out, having a good time.
Clarence comes in with Stevie Wonder, had him by the hand, walks into the studio, took him over to the drums.Benny Benjamin looked at him.They got the feeling that he may want to play the drums, so Benny got up.
Stevie sat down, felt the drums with his hands, where they were and everything.Now, the band is still kind of winding down.He went right into the pocket.Right on the pocket. He made a run.
Hip-hop-hop-hop-hop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop-bop
Now the band is cooking, right?Then he made a run, got up off the throne, off the organ, walked, Clare took him over to the microphone, Stevie reaches in his pocket, pulls out his harmonica, and started blowing it.
Now the band is cooking now, because everybody's fired up. I moved the mic and he said, oh baby, why don't you, why don't you?I said, wow.I leave the room, go to my office.That's the story of Stevie Wonder.
Told a girl to call my lawyer, find out about taking on a kid at a certain age and all that kind of stuff.So I had to get my details together.I go right to Barry Gordy, had a talk with him, and that's how we got Stevie Wonder in the Motown.
Isn't that an amazing story?That's why it's one of my favorites.
It's not only amazing, but like, even when you see like the footage of Stevie Wonder that young doing that, it's still almost, it's not, you know, it's hard to, how does a 10 year old, like, it's like, it's amazing.Gifts, God's gifts to us.
We have gifts.Period.Come here with gifts.
I just, I know.I just, I wish I had one of those.I, um,
You got one now, that's why you're talking over this microphone.
That's true.Michelle was talking about her family and inspiring her with music.I know, Mickey, you have the same story with your mom.That's definitely something that you have in common.
Music has always been part of both of your lives, probably part of what eventually brought you together.
All right, so if you married a few years and you you were together when you were inducted because it was only a couple years ago into the songwriting songwriters Hall of Fame.Yes.
That must have been amazing because when I watch some of the clips, like when you watch like Berry Gordy talking about you, Mickey, or Smokey. One of the common themes is that you didn't get your due.You had such an impact.
And when you just kind of look into it, it's like putting together the Funk Brothers, like everything you've done.Did you feel like this was one of those things?And Michelle, what was it like being there to have him just be honored?
Or were you like, oh, Mariah Carey is also here?
Well, oh boy.I don't know what to say about it.I was shocked to start with.And when they asked me to speak, when I went to receive the award, and Smokey, I was even more surprised.Smokey introduced me to the Hall of Fame.
And did one of my songs, one of my songs that he always loved to do.I was in shock when he sang that tune.
My Baby Loves Me, isn't that one of your favorites?
Yeah, My Baby Loves Me.Oh, yeah.He sang the song with the band in the whole darn yard.And he brought me up to receive the award.And the most amazing thing was I was taken away breathless.I didn't know what to say other than the fact that
I appreciate the award.I think it's phenomenal and all that.And I said, but these are gifts from God.What I did is a gift, and I found out the gift, so I use it.
And I said, I'm sure you in this audience understand because every one of you in this audience have had these gifts, or you wouldn't be sitting at this place at this time.And I took it from there.Are you with me?
It was an honor to be there.And it's always an honor for me to see him acknowledged and appreciated.I feel like he's done so much.He's humble in a lot of ways.
It's just important for him to people to know the things that he's done, because he has a lot in him and he's still creating, you know, even today, he amazes me to observe him and just creating, you know, things I go to him with and
And sometimes I'll be like, I'm going to give you a couple of lyrics, make a song out of this.Okay.Make it this way, that way.He's he just so shocked.Like he said, it's a gift from God.It's inspiring for me to see him be honored.Really great.
Sorry to interrupt my amazing conversation with Mickey and Michelle, but I have to take a quick break.I do want to thank everyone for their support of the sponsors.
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And now back to my amazing conversation with Michelle and Mickey Stevenson.So Michelle, what are, what are some of the things that you think are, should be more well known than about Mickey, like other things you just mentioned?
His discipline, when he's working on a project, he doesn't stop until that project is complete.And anybody around him during that time, if you're a part of that project, he's going to work the hell out of you too. This project will be done.
His commitment to what he believes in, some of the things I would love to be told about him, once he sees something that's not working, he will alter it.He lost 70 pounds since we've been together.
He was eating lamb chops and steak and all of that, but when he's
you know realize that you can have all this stuff but do you want a long happy healthy life or do you want to eat all this stuff and you know things like that so he will make the necessary adjustments and just you know just he has so many creative gifts it's just amazing and
The way he was in Motown, of course, I wasn't there.But I believe he's even better now to be able to just make up songs and listen to music.And he'll be like, do you hear that string there?He can hear things that nobody else can hear.
That's just his mastery.And not just that ability to music, but able to direct and create and
movie-wise and he's able to go in a room and assess what's missing, not just what's missing in a negative way, but what's missing that this will make a difference if you do it that way.
So with his discipline and perfection, was there any tension when you guys were recording the song?Because I know like my wife and I, if we get something from Ikea, there's an 80% chance we're getting divorced.
Well, I think with that, I think there has been tension with other things that we were working on songs.But with this one, we're so in alignment with the purpose.Somebody asked me, how do I feel singing that song?
I said, I feel like I'm singing for Maya Angelou. Josephine Baker, Rosa Parks, people that are not here, people that really stood for African-American people and for us to be in our rightful place or equality and stuff like that.
I think the purpose of the song, I think there were some insecurities in the beginning, like, can I do it?
Because he wants bigness, he wants me to come out, sing this really gutsy type of voice in some parts of the songs, things that I didn't know that was in me.People say to me, I didn't know you could sing that. Powerful.And I said, I didn't either.
He said, I did.You know what I mean?So like that.
So you listen to it now and go like, oh, damn, that is me.And like.
Like, you're like, hey.Also, too, we just did the remix of the song, and I'm able really to hear my voice in a different way as well.So it's a hip hop remix because we want to get to everybody.
Where can people hear the song now?Is it on all the streams?Because somebody sent me, I got sent it, because I'm fancy, I got sent it.
It's on all the streams.It's on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music.It's on all the streams.And the hip hop version will be out.I mean, it's out.People can download it.But it's on all the platforms.It's on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok.Awesome.
Can I ask another Motown question?Would that be OK?
He loves, oh that's the thing you should know, he loves talking about himself, so feel free.
You know it's interesting that like, you know, when I said earlier, you know, the Smokey saying you're the unsung hero, you were, you know, like in that
But interestingly enough, you discovered the Funk Brothers, which are also probably one of the most influential.Was a band is band the right way to say it?And like or a group of musicians put together that also completely unsung.
And I think most people didn't even know about until that the documentary that they did.And then when that came out, which I learned from your book, most of the actual real ones weren't even in the movie or anything like that or you. Two questions.
One thing I've always wondered is, and correct me if I'm wrong, if it's just in my head wrong, but what was it about Detroit that every single person in Detroit seemed to be amazing
I mean, because you also even had, I mean, Aretha was at Motown, but like, she was there too, right?I mean, she was like, all of these people just happened to be in this neighborhood.And they're like, how does this happen?
But you named it right.Remember, at that time in Detroit, the black people lived in a certain area. period.If you step out of that area, you better tell the police where you're going and why you're going.So we all kind of come up in a certain area.
Now, they had a few of those areas, like here, then they had the eight-mile road area there.And so that was our space.So we got to know each other, whether we like it or not.You know what I'm saying?
The talented side was with Aretha, of course, the father being his minister and all that and singing.So we all kind of knew each other.
And the key was to find those who really wanted to do something other than grow up, work at a factory or something.So it was kind of put together for a purpose, shall we say.
For me, it was to find those people that would listen to what I'm talking about, especially with the gifts that they had.It kind of was, I would say, meant to be.
Are you following me? That is a great question.That is amazing.That's something I'm even thinking about now that you asked them that, like Diana Ross in the same area.Right down the block.Smokey Robinson, Stevie Wonder.Yeah, that's like, wow.
Now remember, we all grew up in the same kind of place.If you stepped across that line in those days, you better answer the question to the police, where are you going and why are you going?
But that doesn't make you the singers of a generation and an entire sound, right?I mean, you could grab any group of all these people in this square miles.It's like, I don't got to have Motown.
Was it a combination of they happen to have the skills that Barry Gordy and you happen to also be there to be able to pull their God-given talents in the right direction?Is it like this whole, you know what I'm saying?
Well, I hear where you're coming from.
And the only answer that I have and that I believe in, this was all meant for a purpose.And we were the individuals chosen for this purpose.And those that didn't fall into the line of the purpose, somehow we either passed them on or they left.
But it was meant to go this way.Now, this is my approach, my way.This was the Spirit of the Lord for this to happen.And those that came in had special gifts, and we didn't argue about the gifts.We accepted the gifts.For me, as an A&R man,
When I saw the gift, you may come in as a writer and you were playing the song that you wrote and you sing it to me, I would say to you, I won't sign you as a writer, but I'll take you as a singer.
Or reverse, you come in as a singer, but the song is great.I say, who wrote the song?I did.Okay, I won't sign you as a singer, but I'll take you as a writer.This was meant to be, shall we say.Are you with me?
Right.That's kind of what happened to you, right?I mean, you were singing and Barry's like, yeah, you're not going to be singing.
No, no, no.He was waiting to say that part, Mickey.Look at that smile.
You kind of teed it up a bit, brother.Told me my voice was for shit.So you know I was mad. I packed all my stuff on the floor, ready to get out of his office.He said, wait a minute, where you going?I didn't want to hear nothing else he had to say.
He said, your song sounds pretty good.
Mickey, when you were listening to people and they were coming in and out and you were making the decisions rapid fire, is there any of note people that you passed on and you're like, oh, I missed that one?
Because you said no, they wasn't for me.Thank God.Now everybody that I took, the only thing I can say is some may have come for one reason, but I signed them for another.You know what I mean?
All right.So you didn't, you didn't let anyone, anyone get away.So, cause that's where you were the number one A&R man.So that makes sense.But I was just, sometimes you're like, Oh yeah.You know, like, uh, whoever comes in and they go on to.
So when you put together the Funk Brothers, what was the need for the Funk Brothers that you were putting together?
Well, me coming as a kid, grew up in the music world.You know, my mother's a singer, and I'm sitting here listening to great bands and stuff like that.When I saw the musicians that we had, I said, I got to get a better bass player.
I got to get it better.So I just went to work looking.I went to clubs finding the people that I thought, first of all, they had to be able to read the music. The gift is one thing and reading is another.You put the two together, you got a winner.
You know what I mean?I'm saying that because we can't feel every song.We got to know the song.At least when a writer writes it, there's certain notes got to get in there to hold it together.So I had that problem.
So anyway, I went through all over the city and close to other cities in every club, finding each individual guy. I would go and listen.I had an idea like with James Jameson, the bass player, which was one of mine, was amazing.
I went to his place about four or five times.I liked the way he played, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it.And I think about the fourth time when I'm sitting there watching him, I walked up to him on the break.
And I said, I see that you are singing every note before you play it.Why do you do that?He said, because I'm singing the song.I said, but you don't even know the song.You're just playing it.
He said, but I'm singing the song in my head, so I can play when I'm singing.I said, that's incredible.So I hired him.When he gave me that reason, I took him on then.
Do you find everybody in the club?Because you found me in a club, too.
I think we found his secret.
Exactly.We're the source of it.
That was the point with the drum lines in the bass.Each one, I put after for a purpose, so I can pull them together as one unit.It started happening.Even my guitar player, Joe Messina, I said, okay, Joe, he was great with the hands.
Fingers was all over the place.So I asked him, Man, I'd like for you to come and be one of the musicians with us.I say, but what I'd like for you to do is just stay straight on whatever the groove is, you never leave it.
Don't make colors, just stay with the groove, because you'll be an anchor.So then everybody find anchors, then they can... add to that.If everybody's going around doing stuff, then it turns into a whole other sound.
And sure enough, Joe became the anchor, and James Jameson, he sang his notes.I mean, he would be singing as he played.So when you put that together with each person, with that kind of a focus, it turns into a whole other ballgame.
They became a sound of their own.Are you with me?
Yeah, I mean, it's amazing though, but then just the mythos and then later, like, oh my God, these guys played on more number ones than, what was it, like the Beatles and the Beach Boys and the Stones and Elvis combined.
But then no one knew who they were.Yeah.
Yeah.But we played, I mean, we had sessions we played all day, no stop.
Yeah.One kind of trivia that I had always heard was that Martha Reeves was an assistant, like worked at Motown.So it's like lovely when you like stumble on something you're like, like, oh, I'm reading your book.
And I'm like, oh, now I was Mickey's assistant.I love the story of how you cut dancing in the streets.That's like one of the that's a great, great story.And the book as well is just how
Martha undeniably sounded like how did you to at least get to that point?
And then like... She wouldn't leave.When she came, I gave her a job request.It's in the book.But the bottom line is, I said, you know, I work kind of late.She says, I hired her as my assistant.
But before that, you said that the other assistant tricked Martha into, remember, you said the other lady?
Oh, yeah.My real assistant secretary was leaving, and her and her husband was going to another city.And so she wanted to find somebody that could work with me.So she was attached to Martha, because Martha would come constantly to audition.
And I'm saying, enough girls.I'm done.I'm done.My secretary brought her in. And I come to my office, and Martha's on the phone answering phone calls.It was all set up for me, you know what I mean?When she finished, we started talking.
And I told her I wouldn't take her as an artist, but I'd give her a job as my assistant, as a secretary.She said no, she ain't gonna work for that.Anyway, she took the job.
So that way she could stay around longer and keep hounding me to resign her as an artist. And that's how that came about.But she was very good, though.She was very good, too.
A great example of someone believing in their own talent and not giving up.And thank goodness she didn't, right?
Yeah.And then also, the song was actually for Kim Weston, right?Yeah.Because Martha was there in the building.She got the job.
Yeah, she wouldn't leave.Martha said, I told her, I said, well, I stay here all night sometimes.So she says, listen, I'm taking this job, and I leave when you leave.I said, but that could be 10, 11 o'clock at night.She says, I leave when you leave.
And she never changed that.If I'm downstairs in the studio recording, she'd be upstairs working. Very fortunate, though, because when we finished this song, Marvin Gaye said, well, what you gonna do, man?
You know, we got to get a special voice, a special sound like the Kim.I said, you know what?I'll have Martha make a demo, and then she'll take that, and then she'll study it and get it down.And he said, well, where's Martha?
I said, she's upstairs working.This is late at night, right? I hollered, and she came down from the office, ran down, got right into it.Perfect timing for her, though.It was when she finished the overdub.
Clarence looked at me, and Ivy Jo looked at him, and we looked at each other.And he said, did you hear what I heard?I said, yeah, I heard what you heard. And that was beginning, that was beginning of the saga and Martha.
That part of the book, I love that story specifically because I could feel how you guys were in that room and the angst that you needed to go now get out of having Kim Weston because you had just heard perfection.
And it was like, this was, you talk about gifts being handed down.This was an example, right?Where this just was magic. It was a great story where at the end where like, she's just like, I don't even like that.
So Kim's like, I don't even like that song.And then you're like, oh, then you don't have to record it, huh?
That was a good way out for me, brother.
Yeah.A really funny, funny story.I know I've kept you for a long time.Can you share one Marvin Gaye story?Like maybe whatever your favorite one is, or if Michelle, you have a favorite one you want to prompt him with?
Yeah, I will prompt him with this one.I want you to tell the Marvin Gaye story, the one when Marvin Gaye didn't want to do Stubborn Candyfella, and do all the parts, singing with Marvin Gaye.
Are you inspiring him to sing R&B when he wanted to be a blues singer?
Yeah.When Barry and I were talking about, we took over Anna's records.That was Barry's sister's label.Marvin Gaye and Lamont Dozier was on that label.She had a lot of other artists, but nothing happened. So we took the label.
So Barry said to me, okay man, I'd like to get a hit on this guy right here.And Marvin had a whole other attitude of how he wanted to be, like an Andy Williams kind of singer and all that.
And I said, so anyway, so when I heard him, I said, okay, and I told Barry, okay, man, this is gonna cost, Barry and I bet on everything.We bet $500 on everything.So yeah, I said, yeah, okay, it's just gonna be a, I said, it's $1,000 on this deal.
He said, $1,000?I said, listen, this is gonna be a job.This guy's got a attitude.He wants to be like somebody else.I gotta get him out of that.No, no, $1,000 on this deal. He said, you got to bet.
Now, Marvin Gaye's standing right there listening to this conversation.Anyway, anyway, Barry left the room.And I said, OK, man, we got to get to know each other.He said, but he was letting me know like he heard everything we were talking about.
And so he was set not to do nothing that I was going to say.And I said, we got to get to know each other.So I said, you're a writer.I'm a writer.Let's write some songs together.So he said, you'll write songs with me?I said, yeah, you're a writer.
And so I say, we get to know each other.So it started with that point of view.At any rate, we were writing songs, and a stubborn kind of fella saw what was writing with him.I sang my line soulfully.He sang his all proper.I said, no, no, no, no, no.
Tell him how you sang it.You got to go to church.I say, you come out to church, go back to church.I say, I try to put bombs around y'all because I want to hold you tight. And then he sang his line, and every time I read, no, no, no, no.
You got to go to church.Go like this.And every time I read for you, baby.I want to hear that kind of singing.Don't go no other way.I said, you can do that other stuff on some other song, but this song's got to go like that.
So I'd sing a line, then he'd make up his line, he'd sing a line.Anyway, to cut a long story short, after about a week working on these songs, I took a razor blade and cut out all my verses.
Remember in those days, they had the tape recorder with this, you had to cut the razor.I cut all mine out and closed all his together. And then he came in that morning, I said, I want you to listen to something.And I pressed the button.
And he heard himself singing consecutively, very soulful, because all the other lines were out.I said, now, why don't you do this tune?Take me off the hook with Barry, and I'll do the jazz album on you. He said, OK, OK, all right.I say, now.
He said, I mean, I sing it like you want.I say, you sing it like this.And then in those days, you have the earphones on.I can sing it on the mic in your ear, and you can hear it, and you can still be recording.
I say, I'll do it for you, and you just put it together.If you miss a place, I'll let you know.You go back, dub it in.Cut a long story short, we did it.And I taped it all together.And I told Barry, I said, give me my money.
He said, give you your money.I said, $1,000.You owe me $1,000.He said, you crazy?I ain't heard nothing.I said, here's the CD.Go upstairs, play it.He goes upstairs.He plays the record.He come back down, reach in his pocket, take out the money.
He said, how'd you do that?I said, you don't want to know. And that's how Marvin came with Stubborn Caterpillar, because he was a stubborn caterpillar.
That is a great story.So great.So great.Thank you both for hanging out with me.I can't thank you enough.
It's been a pleasure.Wait a minute.We're closing?I got a couple more things to say.
If you got something else to say, I'm here for it.Part two.Part two.We'll have a part two later.
I could talk to you both all day, Motown.I'll put a link in the in the show notes.If you want to hear Michelle's powerhouse vocals, put Kamala in the White House and then Mickey's amazing words.
And so the combination, these two brought together and Mickey's book that we've referenced a million times, Motown's first A&R man presents the A&R man.Love that book.He didn't know I was going to read it, but I read it because I just
You didn't get it on Amazon.I didn't get it on Amazon.I got it on Kindle.
I got it on Kindle.It's on my Kindle.On Kindle?Oh, my God.
Yeah, you're big time.You're big time.You're like... Kindle.Oh, man.Yeah.So, you guys are awesome.I hope this song explodes.I hope we can get that Kamala hears it.And then hopefully, we'll all be dancing in the streets.You guys are awesome.
And I'll also send you the remix.I'll make sure that you get the remix, okay?
I would love that.I love that.I love the two of yours vibe, by the way, you guys.
Oh, thank you.It was a pleasure being with you.And, you know, your vibe is amazing, too.You have a great face.You have a great aura around you.Don't compliment him too much.
That might be the lighting too, I mean.Thank you.
Thank you.It's an honor to interview us, especially with this specific, you know, topic.It's a sensitive topic for some people.So we acknowledge you for your stand and interviewing us.It was a pleasure.
Yeah.Thank you.Thank you.I could do this all day with you.
Yeah, we can.You want to keep going?We can keep going. I figure you guys got other stuff to do too.All right, how amazing was my conversation with Michelle and Mickey Stevenson?Definitely check out their song, Put Kamala in the White House.
As we talked about in the episode, what's important is that everyone get out there and vote.Also, if you're a lover of Motown history like myself, definitely check out Mickey's book, Motown's First A&R Man Presents the A&R Man.
So many amazing stories in that book.You are going to love it.Well, that's it.You can check out the song.There'll be a link in the show notes.Huge thank you to Michelle and Mickey for hanging out with me and sharing all the great stories.
And huge thank you to all of you for coming back week after week.It means the world to me and I'll see you next time.
Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Classic Conversations.If you like what you heard, don't be shy and give us a follow on your favorite podcast app.Also, why not go ahead and tell all your friends about the show?
You strike us as the kind of person that people listen to.Thanks in advance for spreading the word, and we'll catch you next time on Classic Conversations.
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