Thank you for listening to Sweet Bobby.This podcast has been on an incredible journey since we released it back in 2021.And since then, I've gone on to investigate a whole range of other stories.
There's hoaxed about one of the most serious conspiracies in the UK and my search for the people behind it. Who Trolled Amber, which digs into the bot campaign against Amber Heard during the celebrity trial of the century with Johnny Depp.
And this autumn I released Elon's Spies, all about the private investigators used by one of the most powerful men on the planet, Elon Musk.So if you liked what you heard with Sweet Bobby,
and you want to try another of my investigative podcasts, just search for Tortoise Investigates.That's Tortoise Investigates.It's the home of all our best investigations, all in one place.
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So it's Thursday and I've just arrived outside the radio station.I was scared as I was leaving.And I'm scared now.It's the first time I'm doing the show since Sweet Bobby went live.
Since the podcast came out, Kira hasn't presented her regular show.But for the first time, she's on her way back to Desi Radio.
I don't know if people will know what I've been through because I haven't put anything on my socials very much and I've always been private on my socials.
And as Kira is preparing to go back on air, we're putting together this final episode.
It was going to be all about closure, about Kirat getting her life back on track despite everything, including all the tensions and complications within her own Punjabi Sikh community.And it's still all about that.
But we've basically had to rewrite the end of the series because something new came to light, something unexpected. Just as we were putting together the finishing touches, I get a call from Kirat.
And it's a call that, for the first time, really gives me insight into why Simran did what she did.The closest, I think, I've ever gotten.
There was a phrase that she used which bothered me.She honestly believed that we were both in a dark place. and living in this kind of alternative reality or this fantasy world that she'd created was bringing us both some kind of happiness and joy.
And then the fact that she's only just realised that it wasn't any kind of fantasy for me.
I'm Alexi Mostris, and from Tortoise Media, you're listening to Sweet Bobby.Episode 6, Motive.
For me, it makes no difference.I know her, and I know who she is, and I've known her since she was a little girl.
That's Nilesh, a childhood friend of Kirat's.He's reacting to an apology letter, signed by Simran Bogle, the person who catfished Kirat for almost a decade.
We want her to move on.We want her to be, you know, well and find a happy life.That's what we want more than anything else.
By 2020, two years had passed since Simran confessed to this monumental deceit.But when Kirat sued her in court, her lawyers came out all guns blazing.They accused Kirat of grooming her while she was still at school.
It's a pretty astonishing and incendiary allegation.And it was yet another blow for Kirat.After so many years of struggling, now she was faced with an expensive legal battle. But then suddenly, Simran changed tack.
One day, in spring this year, 2021, Simran offered to settle the case.
And who did she write this to, directly to you?
It's an apology letter, it's like a formal apology letter to me, and I'm allowed to show a limited number of people, so I have to tell her who I'm showing it to, so she even knows who I'm showing it to.
It meant, after years of fighting, Kirat would finally get a small payout, and more importantly, Simran agreed to give her a written apology.But Simran's lawyers had one more card to play. The apology came with strings attached.
No, it's a private apology.So it comes straight to me, and the court knows I'm getting a private apology, but they also know who I'm showing it to.I'm not allowed to say what the contents are to anybody else.
No one's allowed to have a copy of it, make a copy of it, anything.And I put your name down on the list of people that I want to show it to.
Kirat had wanted a public apology, something that could be read out in court.But Simran would only settle if the apology was private, or at least semi-private.She insisted that Kirat could only show the apology to about 30 people.
And even worse, none of the people on the agreed list could make any copies of the apology or tell anyone else what it said.When Kirat heard this, she was furious. It felt like an extension of the control Simran had tried to keep over her.
That same dynamic again.Simran, or Bobby, or whoever, calling the shots.Kirat argued with her lawyers, telling them that it just wasn't good enough.But it wasn't just this that Kirat was unhappy about.
She also felt like the wording of the apology was just too vague.So she rewrote it herself, making it more punchy. And Simran agreed to sign this version, but she still insisted that it couldn't be public.
Kirat felt deeply uncomfortable about this, but she was being told, realistically, this might be the best she was going to get, so she agreed to settle on these terms.A semi-private apology that wasn't even in Simran's own words.
But still, this was the only documentary proof that Kirat had of Simran's guilt.So when Kirat showed it to those closest to her, to some of the pre-agreed list of 30 friends and family, I wanted to be there.
And to be honest, I kind of imagined tears and emotion.But actually, that was a miscalculation.Nilesh's take seemed to be that the apology made no difference either way. He'd support Kira no matter what.
It is what it is.We just worried about her well-being.It doesn't matter how it happened and how she was gullible.
But it's that very perception of you saying gullible, that's for me a problem because I don't think I was gullible.It's like she'd gone out of her way to do this to me.And this is the thing.
Lots of people think you must have been so gullible, you must be so gullible.And I kept challenging that.
And the thing is, it is, I mean, Alexi, you've been through the evidence, you've seen and read, like, God knows how many conversations, but you can see I'm, like, challenging all the way through, I'm arguing, I was, I tried to get away, I tried to get out of the relationship, but I was just emotionally blackmailed into staying into it.
But it's just like that whole perception, and this is the thing, the perception of what I don't want people to have of me now is that I'm gullible or I'm vulnerable, because I've stood up to her.
I've spent a lot of time with Kirat by now, and I know that for her, the details really matter.And when people like Nilesh tell her to move on, as well-intentioned as that is, it's missing the point.
She wants people to understand the details of the scam, to ask questions about how it worked.Because the more you understand that, the sophistication of it all, the less you'll think she's gullible, and the more you'll think
Shit, maybe this could have happened to me.And that all applies to her own family too.
Theo, quick, my dad's upstairs.You can probably hear my dad on the phone constantly.He's just in denial.I've told him, he knows you're here.
Totally in denial.It's so difficult for me in that sense.If my dad's in denial, can you imagine our community?
When are you going to show him the letter?
I've offered three times sitting there on the top, but yeah, it's just.
He doesn't want to, to know.
I don't know what's going through his head.I don't know whether he feels ashamed of me, scared of the family.
I don't know, but it's the kind of genuine, I'm guessing it's the fears that you'd have in our community that, but it doesn't make it easy for me.
Kira is still struggling to talk about what happened with her own family.She lives with her mum, dad and two younger brothers.But since all this was revealed, neither of her parents have really wanted to talk about any of it.
And despite Kira having this apology letter for months, her dad still hasn't read it. So I really wanted to speak to him.And the fact that her dad just doesn't seem to want to know, I do find this really sad.
Because I've heard Kirat speak about him with great affection.In the days after Simran's confession, for instance, he was the person she most wanted to protect her.
So I had to go and tell the rest of the family who'd been supportive and been talking to him too.
I remember at that point I was sitting in their living room trying to explain all of this and it just felt like a vulnerable little girl again and you just want your dad.
I just wanted my dad.My dad was in Kenya and I knew I couldn't tell him because I didn't know what would happen.I didn't know how he'd feel.
Kirat's dad was often away in Kenya for long periods, and he wasn't there when Simran revealed that she was the catfish.So I really wanted to speak to him, to hear his reaction to Simran's apology.
Not just because I wanted this for Kirat, but because I thought it might also give us some clues about how their wider community would treat this story too. Should we go in and see whether we can speak to him?
Does he know we're coming?
Hello.Nice to see you again.How are you? Almost as soon as we step into the hallway, the same hallway where Simran confessed three years ago, Kirat's mum ushers us into the living room and offers us cardamom tea.
And just as I'm thinking about how to persuade Kirat's dad to speak to me, I hear him walk down the stairs.
She came in.Hi.How are you?
Nice to meet you.Nice to meet you.Thank you.Thank you so much.What a lovely house.
At this point, we're all sitting in a circle in Kirat's living room.Her dad is opposite me, looking quite uncomfortable.Kirat's sitting next to him, about a meter away, not making much eye contact.She's on her phone.
And her mum is sitting kind of over my shoulder, watching us.It's all quite tense.
We don't want you to speak about anything that you don't know.It would just be interesting to get your perspective as Kirat's dad.
Have your tea before it gets cold.
It is very unfortunate that this happened.Anyway, it shouldn't happen to anybody.I'm sad that it happened.That's all I can say, really.
I thought that if Kirat's dad was going to do an interview, we'd have a bit of time to prepare.At least enough time for Gary, my producer, to get the mic set up properly. But as he started talking, I realised it was now or never.
I think when this came into, I'm saying came in the media, or it wasn't, I just read it on the internet.And it is quite baffling to read that.It's quite shocking as well.And I went through it and aghast, simply aghast.
And I think, I can't even believe that it happened.It should not have happened.
I feel like Kirat's dad does not want to read this letter, that he thinks he's got as much information as he needs from what he read online.
If you were willing, I think it would be really interesting to see what you thought of the apology letter.Because I think, actually, even more than the stuff on the internet, it tells you what has happened.
So, if Kirat gives it to you, do you mind reading it and telling us what you think?
I don't mind reading it, obviously.I don't mind reading it. Obviously, I'm the dad anyway, so... You can't say what's in it.
Yeah, oh yeah, you can't say what's in it.You can't describe what's in it.
Basically, even if I read it, and whether I read it or not, you know, my conclusion would be what I've just said to you.It should not have happened.It is sad that this happened, but it should not even happen to anybody else.
But Keerat passes it to him anyway.And while he reads, we wait. And I remember the clock ticking in the background, adding to the tension.
OK, she's gone through hell, basically.It's over, and I hope she gets on with her life.
Do you think this will let her get on with her life now?Do you think this is closure?
I believe it will sort of calm her down in many ways.It's something maybe, it's deeply hurting to her.And I've been totally oblivious.Believe me, I've been totally oblivious, I'll just explain to you.Most of the time I did not know anything about it.
Let's say until I met Amrit and Amrit with her. that is the only good time and at that given time I was told not to involve myself in any matters.
You don't have to answer this but I have a daughter and if I imagined that in 20 years time she had been tricked and scammed in the same way as Kirat has, I would be very upset and angry and I wonder if you are?
It's a difficult question to answer.It is upsetting.But then, over a period of time, lots of things happen, from your teens up to the time you get married.
There are ups and downs, agreements between people, even during university times and things like that.You agree to get married and then something happens.That is the most upsetting thing in life.But it is upsetting.
It doesn't go out of your mind all your life. So I really I'm sorry for anybody.I'm sorry for Kira Tommy.I'm sorry for Simran.It shouldn't have happened Look sorry, I'm saying I'm saying sorry it should not have happened.
Why do you feel sorry for her?
Look it because like my she has chosen to do this.No, no, no, no, listen to me what what I meant Because she did something wrong The grandfather is very badly hurt OK?And I felt sorry.
I'm saying sorry that it should not happen because the grandfathers are very decent people.
You feel sorry about the situation?
To the parents, to the grandfather, yes, but not Simran.
Oh, the situation, yeah.Not for Simran, I would say, no.Yeah.
It shouldn't have happened.Sorry that it's happened, but it shouldn't have.It hurts the whole family.It upsets the relationships.You know, you cannot get on with life not as before.So it is upsetting.
Now, I should say, this is obviously a difficult moment for Kirat.And she probably would have reacted just as strongly if anyone had suggested they should feel sorry for Simran, not just her dad.
And her reaction, this tension, is all bound up, she told me, in a sense of guilt for letting her family down, for exposing them to hurt.
Thank you very much.I mean, that was like, you know, we don't want to push it at all.We're just very grateful.Very grateful.And we know it's quite hard.
My last comment is that the parents were very decent.The grandfather is such a decent person.Believe me, honestly.They're from a decent family.Why this has happened is When Kirat's dad finished speaking, a lot of stuff fell into place for me.
I'm pretty sure that he doesn't understand anywhere near the full extent of the scam.
And you can literally feel, can't you, how uncomfortable he was. He seemed to be battling within himself between protecting his daughter on the one hand and not rocking the boat.And on one level, I'm thinking maybe this is understandable.
This is an older guy from a community that both experts and Keirat have told me is quite patriarchal, quite traditional.Plus, he's got complex ties to Simran Bogle's family.I mean, Simran's dad was best man at Keirat's parents' wedding.
Why me?It's just like, why me?
It's such a huge question.It's just like, I don't understand.
I reckon that we're going to get to the end of this podcast series and never know.
I've made my peace with not knowing.
It's always difficult to come to a conclusion.Even if you ask Simran why she did it, she will not give you a She will not give you an answer why I did.
That is a really good point.She might not know herself.
The question of Simran's motivation keeps coming up.Of course it does.It's pretty much all anyone I talk to about this show wants to know.Why did she do it?And how?Like, the nuts and bolts of it.
A few days ago, a woman who knows Simran got in touch through a third party.
This woman remembers going on a hen do with Simran just a few years ago, and she says that Simran didn't go out that night, the night of the do, because she apparently had to jump on some business calls to America on Skype.
And this I find particularly interesting, because if what Simran was actually doing was calling Kirat as Bobby, it shows that the scam was taking over her life almost as much as it was taking over Kirat's.
While Kirat was fighting Simran in the civil courts, her legal team kept pressing the police to act.Yet by March 2020, almost two years after the confession, the investigation had gone nowhere.
So just as the pandemic was hitting, Kirat issued a formal complaint.And 13 months later, in April 2021, she finally got a response.
and basically said there's nothing to answer for.
The conclusion was, because we've got the document that they sent back to you, and the conclusion was, while I have absolutely no doubt that you have felt victimised by the events described in your allegation, I can only concur that the behaviour described, while morally objectionable, does not violate any existing legal statute.
The complaint board upheld Hounslow Police's decision to drop the case.They basically said they did the right thing.Kira was devastated.
And it was evident that they didn't listen, didn't understand the complexity of the case, and that we had the right to appeal to the IOPC, the Independent Office for Police Conduct, The police just focused on the sexual aspect.
They failed to have any regard for the coercive control, the controlling behaviour element, the malicious communications, the harassment, and this 10-year deception.They just did not grasp the case.
I've seen the document dismissing her complaint and the only offence it mentions is the Sexual Offences Act.The police don't seem to have considered any other potential crimes.
Since this podcast came out, we've heard from many other people who've been through similar experiences to Kirat.People who've been tricked for years by catfishers, often with devastating psychological consequences.
And all too often, the police have refused to engage.So, it really genuinely surprised me when, against this pretty bleak backdrop, Kirat phoned me recently with some positive news.
The IOPC, the independent body that investigates the police, had looked at Kirat's case again.Kirat had written to them to make one final appeal.
She'd actually got Amrit to send it, figuring they might take it more seriously if it came from a solicitor.And the IOPC, it found that the police hadn't properly considered Kirat's evidence.
And the upshot is, Hounslow police may have to reconsider their decision to drop the case against Simran.Kirat is actually meeting an officer next month to go through everything, including the critical period where Bobby was controlling her.
And I'm thinking, hopefully this time, Kirat will get more than 20 minutes to explain.
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A few days before this episode was due to come out, I have what's supposed to be a final conversation with Kirat, and we're sitting in her bedroom at home.And it's one of the first times when I've been able to ask her about the IOPC decision.
What do you hope happens now in light of the IOPC decision?
I hope that everything gets taken seriously.I mean, I don't wish harm on anybody. But she's got to be accountable and responsible for her behaviour.
And if there are laws, and if she's broken a law, she needs to face the consequences of what she's done.And it's not that I'm being nasty here, but that's what it is.It's justice.
I know that this might be one of my last chances to ask Kirat some of the questions that have been on my mind throughout making this series.Some questions that I know you've been asking as well.I suppose let's just address the how question.
because it's something that a lot of people are asking about.And I suppose the main question that we're getting is how Simran was able to do all those voices.Like, how do you think she was able to do it?
For me, it wasn't that many voices.It was, including her own, which is herself, there was four, I think.
But how could she go from, how could she compellingly go from a man to a woman to Simran to someone else without you recognizing that?
Well Bobby has a different accent and he was obviously not well and that whole thing had been explained to me and then when you're speaking to somebody over a period of two or three years it kind of
normalizes itself, you just accept that that's his voice now.The fact that I knew he'd lost his voice during the stroke and medics
and other people had, you know, the medical team had told me he's lost his voice, he can't talk, he can't move, he's only got this bit of movement in him left.And even when we were doing those initial calls, he couldn't speak to me.
So I was getting reports of his voice therapy, he's going to his voice therapy session today, and then after about almost a year of him having
voice therapy and you know his rehab he had another stroke and lost it again so um his voice never went back to exactly how it was he had his accent but you you you you were also speaking to at least one other person i'm going to get the initials wrong maybe yj that was right at the end in 2018
Right but YJ was a man he hadn't had any damage to his voice and Simran was YJ so what did that voice sound like?
Initially he'd only call me and cry it was after his sister was unwell and he'd never called me before but it was like he'd call me then hang up and it'd be lots of crying and crying and crying because his sister was severely unwell and he was leaning on me for support
And I think it was also being used as a distraction technique from me asking Bobby the 60 million questions of what the hell's your problem kind of thing.
JJ and YJ's voices came into play so much later that because they sounded slightly different, but there was a similarity enough for them to think that they're from the same family.But I was, I think at that point, I was constantly being shouted at
I was in a really bad place and that probably clouded my judgment.I did think it.
I did like, okay, oh, but he does sound like him, but you don't, you forget because you've been speaking to Bobby for two and a half years with this voice, which is, you don't think like that.You think they're brothers.
You just, and I was a state at that point.
If Simran is listening to this podcast and listening to this episode, do you have a message for her?
You brought this on yourself, but I don't know if you grasp what you've done and how you've impacted my life or other people's lives.Just, I just want you to wake up and understand how many people you've upset, including your own family.
I'm not accepting the blame for that.I'm not accepting the blame for anything here.I haven't done anything wrong.
What do you think the future looks like?
I don't know, I have no idea.I know what I want it to look like, but... What do you want it to look like?I'd like to be just like happy, go lucky me, or I am.Whether I'm lucky, but I'm just like the happy, like spirited person that I am.
Just be that person without any worry.You know, move out, have my own place, find somebody
If I could have a family, you know, obviously that's something now, the big thing that she's upset in my life, whether I could, can or can't have a family, I don't know.And just do all the things that I wanted to do.
All those years where I wanted to travel so much and she knew I wanted to travel and do these things.
We'd plan, you know, we've got, me and Bobby had Pinterest boards of holidays and stuff and, you know, but just because that happened, she's not allowed to take that away from me.
I'm still going to do those things for myself, even if it wasn't with Bobby.Bobby wasn't real and I've accepted that.And that's what lets me, I just keep saying that wasn't real.It was real to me at the time, but I've accepted that it's not real now.
I've spoken out now, this is now going to be attached to me for the rest of my life.
I can't run away from this, but at the end of the day there's nothing, there's no shame in it, there's no embarrassment in it because if you were in my shoes you probably would have done the same.
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I thought this was where we were going to end.But then there was that phone call I mentioned at the start, the one that changed this whole final episode.
Hey, Kirat, how are you doing?
Kirat had been speaking to her friend about the apology letter, the one that Simran had signed but didn't write, the one that she had shown her dad.
And she said, you know, it's so unemotional.And I just remember trying to think of a time when she was emotional and I suddenly remembered.
that this had been sent to me as a draft apology to see if I would accept this but it was only for my eyes and it was the most emotional thing from her in any sense.
Kira had received another apology letter before the one that ended up in the settlement and this draft apology letter had been written by Simran herself. This one was much more personal.
It was written directly to Kirat from Simran, and Simran wanted Kirat to keep it to herself.If Kirat had accepted this letter, a completely private apology, as the basis of her settlement, then she could never have shown it to anyone else.
Instead, she insisted on a version that could be shown to her close friends and family, those 30 pre-agreed people I mentioned earlier.So this draft apology, sent in early 2021, kind of got forgotten about.
It became just another document in a long list of emails and drafts that Kirat received leading up to the formal settlement. Even now, Kirat can't show us this original direct apology, for legal reasons.
But I did ask her if she could give me the gist of it.Because this letter is really important.It's really the only document Kirat has that gives any real clues about Simran's motivation, about why she did it.And it's written in Simran's own words.
I suppose my first question is, do you remember how it started?How did she open it?What did she say to you at first?
It was an emotional letter.
And it was all like, you know, she would change everything if she could and it was all very gushing and, you know, I'm sorry for all the hurt I've kept paying and caused and all that kind of, you know, what you'd expect somebody to say.
So she said she opened it with an apology?
Yeah, I mean she did, yeah.It wasn't, yeah, sorry for the hurt.
I mean, we've been thinking, as you know, so much about Simran's motivation, like what made her do it, what made her... It was the same as what she'd said when she'd confessed that she was in a dark place.
I mean, that's exactly the words that she used when she came home and confessed.
But Kirat remembers the letter opening with Simran explaining how this whole thing got started, about how she was struggling with things going on in her personal life, she had other issues too, and then how she met Kirat for the first time as a teenager and thought that they just clicked, and then how the lives just snowballed out of control.
What else do you remember the letter saying?I mean, I'm absolutely fascinated because this is the first time that we've really heard anything from Simran in her own words about why she did it.
I mean, I was really upset with this letter.She thought I was okay.There was a phrase that she used which bothered me.She honestly believed that we were both in a dark place
and living in this kind of alternative reality or this fantasy world that she'd created was bringing us both some kind of happiness and joy.
And then the fact that she's only just realized that it wasn't any kind of fantasy for me and it wasn't bringing me any kind of happiness.That really, I mean, that really sticks out for me.
And then is there any indication in the letter about why she allowed it to kind of continue?What did she say about why she allowed it to get to the stage it did?
In the letter, she'd said something along the lines of she had wanted to leave.You know, she said she'd tried to end it.
And the reason that she was so nasty to me and so cruel to me, using those characters, was hoping that I'd leave or she'd push me away and I'd just leave and be easy for her.
So what, was she saying that she was, she was purposefully nasty to you in order to try and make you break up with her, with Bobby?
Yes.But then Bobby would always have a heart attack or a stroke and I didn't have to come back in.So I don't understand.
Why didn't, did the letter say anything about why she didn't stop it herself?
That was her effort, I guess.
So on the surface of it, if you didn't know anything about her or the context, the letter itself is a pretty fulsome apology?
Yeah, I think anybody else reading it would think differently to me.That it's emotional and heartfelt and that she's really feeling pain.
No.I mean, no.I didn't think it was genuine at all.It was all about herself.
Just explain why, because as you said, on the face of it, it seems like quite a heartfelt apology.So just explain the reasoning behind why you thought the opposite.
because she could have sent that to me ages ago.She could have stopped it being filed to court.Why did she only recognise all of this now?Did she not recognise it when she confessed?
Our team is split on this one.I agree with Kirat.It doesn't ring true for me at all. After all, it came only after months of aggressive tactics from Simran's lawyers.And Simran knew that it could only ever be seen by Kirat and no one else.
So all that stuff about her being in a dark place and being sorry, I find it very difficult to believe. And she seems to have had no trouble getting on with her life.
Whereas Gary and Claudia, they think that maybe the letter does offer an insight into Simran's psychology.They think that if Simran knew the letter would only be seen by Kirat, maybe she felt like she could reveal more.
But there's only one person who can say for sure.And if you're listening, Simran, we'd still like to hear from you.
And we're going to stick with this case whatever happens, not least to see if the police reopen their investigation, because true justice is yet to come for Kirat.
There is one thing, though, that I found out right before recording this final episode.I found out that Simran is no longer in her high-powered job, that at some point between August and the time when this podcast went out, she left.
Now, I don't know why she's no longer there, but it does perhaps feel like a step forward towards some sort of accountability, towards consequences.
I know the question of why Simran did what she did is tantalising, but it might not be the most important thing here. Because, with or without a clear explanation of motive, Kirat does seem to be on her way to recovery.
She's still got a whole bunch of issues to work through, financial, professional, but she's back on her radio show.She's got her supporters, people like Amrit.She's even been on a few dates.
And despite everything that's happened to her, she's finally able to start reclaiming her life.
So from me, until next time, go well, go safely, keep smiling.This is Geerat signing out on the Bungrowed Show.Remember, look after yourselves and one another.I think I'm done.I think I'm done.I'm glad I got the show over with today.
While making the series, Simran's lawyers gave us this statement on her behalf.This matter concerns a family dispute over events that began over a decade ago, when I was a schoolgirl.
As far as I'm concerned, this is a private family matter that has been resolved, and I strongly object to the numerous unfounded and seriously defamatory accusations that have been made about me, as well as details of private matters that have been shared with the media.
Thanks for listening to this episode.Sweet Bobby was written and reported by me, Alexi Mostrus, produced by Gary Marshall, with additional reporting and production by Claudia Williams.Sound design is by Carla Patella.
The executive producer is Basha Cummings.
Thanks for listening.To hear about all of our investigative series, follow Tortoise Investigates wherever you get your podcasts.
For the best tortoise listening experience, curated by our journalists and with additional episodes and content, download the Tortoise Audio app.
Or if you just want early and ad-free access to our podcasts, you can subscribe to Tortoise Plus on Apple Podcasts.
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