Hello and welcome to How to Win the Lottery, Season 11, The Great American Novel, Number One.Today's book is Moby Dick by Herman Melville.I'm Joey Lewandowski.Herman, oh sorry, Moby Dick or The Whale by Herman Melville.I'm Joey Lewandowski.
Shreds.This is our first book in our Great American Novel module, which means it's the greatest American novel so far to us.
Yeah.What do you, well, let's, let's jump right in to the question of the great American novel.Yes.And we'll revisit this at the very end.
At the end of what?Our lives?
Uh, yeah.Which is incidentally in about an hour and 10 minutes.
We'll end this podcast.Ooh, exciting.Ticking clock.
I was, here's how dumb I am.I was reading this and I was just like, this is Massachusetts.This isn't Vermont.
Oh, you weren't thinking of it.
I wasn't thinking like, cause we just did three Vermont books in a row.And I was just like, no, this is like keep caught.Like this is.
It's also not even that.Cause it's like Japan.It's everywhere.And the Cape of Africa and.
They globetrot in a way that I was stunned by.
It's fascinating because. It's a whole lifestyle, right?Like, can you imagine being one of those guys?No.
You could not get me on this boat for a doubloon.
It sounds like the most intense, scary life possible.
There is a lot about the actual, like logistical nuts and bolts of this that just seems insane.Yeah.Like, And I know this is kind of the point of the book, but to think in all of the world's oceans, you can find the one whale that ate your legs.
And then they do.Yeah.Like even though they explain it, Ishmael explains just like there are currents and whales follow the same path.
And there's a pretty good understanding that at a certain point it is likely to be here, that the migratory patterns of whales and whatever,
And there's a whisper network of other boats that are always like pulling by and they all know about this one whale and it's just like, hey, have you seen the white whale?
And still, to think in all of the world's oceans, you'll find the one?Yeah.Looney Tunes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.It's crazy.
Almost all they leave on Christmas morning.Like that's like, that was like off job.Just like, what a shitty whale.
It's like this whale.Spend some time with your family before you go off to your like.
Ahab doesn't spend time with his family.That's kind of the point of the book too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.That everything, I mean, that is the point of the book, right?Like at the end of the day, the point of the book is that every single thing pales in comparison to obsession.
I'm interested in this as a great American novel because it is so none of it takes place in America, right?Except for the first like two chapters.
No, but it's all, they're largely all American characters and it is, here's the thing.They always have Nantucket water.
Like even when we go on to other places with good water, we don't like to drink that.We want to bring the stuff that we drink, the stuff we brought.I'm just like, that seems crazy too.But like, yeah, you don't have unlimited space.
Just drink like French water or whatever.It's going to be fine.
A lot of mention in Nantucket.
Um, which I don't have any feelings about.
There once was a man from Nantucket, that man was Ishmael.
I, so there- Do you think that Ishmael's dick was so long that he could suck it? Let's talk dicks.You got, okay.Hey, Ab.Probably hanging dong, right?You think, or do you think he's compensating?I don't know.I mean, what we really know is Queequeg.
Queequegs.Queequeg is that guy.Yeah.He's got, he's got a, BD all over the place.Like he's not competent for anything.He couldn't care to impress anybody.He's just like Starbucks also not bad.
Ishmael, I think it's just like, average, just down the middle.
Yeah, totally, like right down the middle.
There was a thing in the opening paragraph to the Wikipedia for this book that is also exactly what I thought, just like, many people assume Ahab is the narrator.
Even though the first line is well-known as, call me Ishmael, I always thought maybe that was like, his name is Ahab, but call me Ishmael, or whatever.But just like, this is told from the perspective of just a guy on the boat.And I'm like.
So an interesting thing after I started reading this, because I didn't know that much about I knew about this book, but I didn't know the depth to which these similarities would be raised.
I think maybe a more natural pairing with this book than Blood Meridian is The Great Gatsby, because The Great Gatsby is also narrated by a secondary character that
you're introduced to, he gives you the lay of the land, then he introduces you to the more compelling character, which is Gatsby or Ahab, and then he fades into the background while you follow Ahab or Gatsby's obsession to its natural end.
And its natural end is the same thing in both cases, right?So I think The Great Gatsby is the novel that most often gets put up as the great American novel. And it's thematics and aesthetics to a certain degree.
Although there's grand departure in various ways.But it's the mechanics of the novel, of how the story is told, are very similar.And the themes, even though they're delivered in completely different ways, are also very similar.
It's about obsession unto death.
And maybe that's what America is.
America is obsession unto death, working yourself to death because you have this one goal in mind and you've been sold a bill of goods or there's something about the individualistic spirit that has been steroidally inflated that we have no concentration on the collective.
Because one thing about Ahab
Is other than the hanging dong like a Habs about a Hab like a Hab doesn't give a fuck about any other person when he brings out like the other like shadow crew or whatever, just like, hold on, like this is not even about like everybody's like, no, we're here to make money.
It's like, no, we're here to kill a whale.Yeah, yeah.That's not why we're here.And but also like when that happens, they're already like a sea and just like, well, yeah, good luck.
Yeah.Like, what are you going to mutiny?You're like, maybe.And he's like, you're not going to you're not going to do it.
I was thinking every time that, like, I was picturing Ahab, I was just thinking of the guy from The Simpsons.
Cause that's like, I mean, he's like Ahab type, right?But like, or just like a pirate type, but.
Yeah.Yeah.Ahab is also like a kind of cult leader. because his obsession, like other people do get swept up in it and they do follow.
Well, I think it's also like to death, like they are all like driven by that.Like there's that, that paragraph or whatever that like what a doubloon can buy you.
And it's just like whoever gets this, Whoever finds Moby Dick gets this doubloon.
Doesn't he take it for himself?
He does.He's like, I saw it.
That's the, this book is so funny.It's so funny.Like he couldn't even like give that to Starbuck.He had to be like, Oh yeah, no, actually I'm the one that saw it.So nobody gets the doubloon.
And everyone who is doing this just for that thing is like, fuck.
And he's just like, look, boat was struck by lightning.It lit up the coin.The coin's mine now.It's like, Okay, man.I always, I also feel like no matter what happened, he was always not going to give up the doubloon.
Also, spoiler alert, everybody died.It doesn't matter.It doesn't matter at all.But still, it does feel like it's an empty bounty.It's just like, no, you didn't get that.Like, I actually saw it.
Yeah.Which is like, that's such like a big brother move, right?So it's such like a, like, I'm changing the rules of the game at the last minute.Or like, he's, this book is like, would you call it a comedy?
I think it, I think the earlier parts are funnier than the later.The first like 40 pages are fucking hilarious.Well, so when Ishmael is just like, I'm going to go do a thing, I'm going to go on a boat and do this thing.
And he's like, stays at this inn.
And they're like, well, we already promised the room to a cannibal.He's just like you, you what? And then like the cannibal shows up and it was quick quake.
And not only is he like not the sweetest, sweetest boy in the world, he's like the sweetest man.They like snuggle in bed together.Yeah.And it's just like, yeah.
Oh, it turns into like a seventh grade girl sleepover.Like they're essentially like braiding each other's hair while smoking out of his Tomahawk pipe.
It's very, it's very adorable.Yeah.Like 20% of the book, like a thing that like made me laugh out loud was like the, I did not realize that this book.
Well, I have to clarify this by saying, I'm assuming I read the same version, but like, I read a 99 cent Kindle version that had more than minor, but not quite major formatting issues.
Like there wasn't like, each chapter had like big texts as a header, but it wasn't a separate chapter.Like you couldn't, like, it was just like, the book was one chapter.And then like toward the end, like chapters were not separated out.
And there were also like, at the start of chapters, there were like, what basically looked like stage directions. Yeah, that's so okay.So that's that's close enough.
Yeah, it shifts format into being Like a play at various points just to just show you like, okay Here's what's happening on this ship on the ship it like over here in the same moment So I knew that the book was long.
The version I read was like 690 pages.There's like 610 or something for yeah, I But I did not expect it to be like sort of like a play.
I didn't expect it to be like about the history of whaling and whaling routes and like, and the boat whaling cords and cables and boats and like how to boat and like the meetings.
There was a part early on before I think you realize maybe like this is what it gets going to keep going.
But there's a thing where it's like the whale has no famous author and whaling, no famous chronicler you say, and then like all capital letters, he goes, the whale, no famous author, no famous chronicler.
Just like, this is what you say, but you are so, There's like five of those in a row.I'm just like that's pretty good.
Yeah Yeah, um, it's interesting cuz like pretty immediately I texted you about this saying like Man, it really feels like Robert Eggers should make this into a movie.Yes, cuz it's it feels like it had black and white Lighthouse vibes.
Yes, right where it's like, you know and and lighthouse is in some ways a comedy Like it's, there's like very short, very funny parts of it.And, but also that level of intensity.
But then I would say like 40% of this book is just the welcome to my boat section of the life aquatic where Bill Murray is just literally like,
Walking you around the boat showing you like the different worms and what things do yep and except for like some of that is about like Okay, here's like what a whale skull is like and here's what it here's how we get the oil out and here's like what it's like to yeah while threading in absolutely terrifying information like How there's just like
Massive schools of sharks just like chowing on the side.
Yeah the entire time while they're telling him There was a weird thing that I was wondering in reading this book where it's like this book is from the mid 1800s yeah, and a lot of this is kind of him saying like is Ishmael describing a
people who have previously to me described whales were kind of guessing.
Like they would just see a whale washed up on shore.Right.And they don't know what the whale was like in its natural habitat.And that's why it's important for people like me to be out here because like we're learning.
And I'm just thinking like in the 200 or so years since this was written, How much of what he has written is wrong?
Well, a bunch of it, because, like, one of the major things that he says is, like, we don't know that much about whales, but we know that whales are fish.And it's like, whales are not fish.Whales are mammals.
And then he goes, we don't know much, but we know the dolphin is a kind of whale.And it's like, no, also not true.A dolphin is not a kind of whale. Right?
So like, there's, I mean, a dolphin is, you know, a mammal the same way the whale is a mammal, but like, they're very, very different species.
But like, that's the kind of thing where it's like, that's like the point of science, right?It's like, people are like, this is the way things are.Then other people are just like, it's not actually, but here's why it's not.
Yeah.And also there's like, you know, I think there, there's a sense with which the
detail of the whale and going into its anatomy and the bigness of all of it, like the sort of the scale of everything from its skull to its blood to its, to like the way that it's like brush like teeth work to like the fact that it doesn't really have a tongue to, uh,
the really fascinating section about the eyes being on the side of the head and what that means for perception of the whale.And so all of that stuff, I think, contributes to an argument.
And there is an argument that a lot of people make that the whale represents God, or the whale represents the absence of God.
People make that argument in the book or just in life?
No, in life. But the depth paid attention to the actual whale, the physicality, like the material world of the whale.Like, I think it's pretty clear that he's just saying, like, this book is about a whale.
Yeah.Right?Well, I was saying, like, the other title for this is just called The Whale.Yeah.
Like, I don't think the symbolism goes beyond it being a whale.But you can look at it from, like, a specific
a romantic point of view, like, as far as, like, romanticism is concerned, which is a turning away from the Enlightenment and toward, like, turning away from the rationalism of the Enlightenment and turning back toward the, like, falling in love with the spirituality of nature and looking at this thing that is a marvel of one of two things, one being intelligent design, which is, like, holy shit, like, a, like,
divine hand crafted this unbelievably awe-inspiring creature.
Or, you can look at it as, like, holy fuck, like, billions of years of chaos and coincidence and, like, all of these, like, dialectic biological forces, like, crashed into each other and its tension created this, like, gargantuan machine.
I think it's like the same thing with just life in general.Either way you look at it, it's a miracle.It's just like, was this divine or was this just like, is this just kind of a cosmic accident that we're here at all?
Yeah, but when you turn your eye to something of this scale, I think it lights the fire.It can light the fire inside of someone like Ahab, someone who honestly is a maniac, right?
lights that fire inside him to where it's like, in the presence of this thing, the only thing that we can do is either kill it or be killed by it.
Well, there's even like, to that point, like the exact, like the heightened, like there's a part in here where they compare it to an elephant, which is like the biggest thing that we can kind of imagine on land and just like, it's not even fair to compare that to the whale.
Like the whale is so much bigger and you're like, but an elephant's already really big.Like,
Yeah, and there's that part about the whale descending into the sea to get away from them.And the idea of imagine something that big going under, imagine the pressure of the water on top of it.
And it reminded me a little bit of, I don't know why, did you ever see that photo of when they hanged that elephant?
No.Let me look it up.I'm gonna Google this.
This is a- It's really strange.And it's really, really, really off-putting because- Like dimensions are skewed?Yeah, because you're not supposed to see something that large.
Oh, yeah.I think I have seen this.
Like existing in that context.
Like almost being held like a cat by the scruff of the neck.Like it just- Yeah.
And it's just like, what, like, how did that happen?It's so unnatural and so strange. that I think, even though the whale is natural, Ishmael takes 500 pages to show us the nature of the whale, showing us, here's all the ins and the outs of it.
It's like, at the end of the day, you're looking at a fucking xenomorph.You're looking at this thing that is, you are so biologically inferior to at the thing that you're trying to do, which is, you're not biologically inferior to it if you wanna
grow a garden or something like that.Right.
But it's like you get into a boat and you go out into the middle of the ocean against the tides and you're like rowing against sharks and the sharks are biting off the oars and your captain is saying like, they'll last, just like keep going, keep going.
And you've crafted this like divine harpoon that gets struck by lightning and catches on fire. And like everything about that, you're meant to like, any sane person watching that entire thing would go, what are you doing?
Like, don't do that.Just go home.Right.Stop doing that thing.But there's that part of, you know, Moby Dick, or sorry, Ahab is such like a, I don't even want to say convincing orator because he's insane.He's clearly an insane person.
I think there's something part about like it's you and like what is like 40 guys or whatever.Yeah.Thousands of miles from any land.Just like, well, we could fight back.But if we lose.Yeah.
You know, like there's something that's like he doesn't have to be convincing.He just to be like more convincing than the alternative, which is like maybe death.Right.Or like it's just like in in. middle of nowhere, you don't have a lot of options.
Yeah.And there is something, I don't want to call it uniquely American, but it is certainly like feels American about the idea of there being this impossible task that you're inevitably going to fail at.That one guy is just like,
we're going to do this thing.Yeah, let's do it.And everyone eventually is like, all right, let's do it.And they jump on board with that guy and you go do it and you die.
Well, like the crazy thing to me is that like the entire like basis for their expedition is just to get to kill whales and get their, their oils to like light lamps.
And it's just like, there's gotta be an easier way to do this, man.
I mean, yeah, it's a different world.
And also, like, I kept thinking, you know, because they talk about the Native Americans killing the buffalo and stuff in this, too, and you think about the oceans before everything was overfished and how many whales there must have been out there just, like, going around, how, like, awe-inspiring those oceans were.
I have that passage highlighted because I'm just like, this is just crazy.
There's also like, there's the book or the movie Leviathan, not, there's like a foreign language one, but there's like the Leviathan, which is like a documentary about a fishing vessel.Have you seen this movie?No.It's beautiful to look at.
I found it very boring, but it just like, this job seems crazy just to go out there and just like go fishing.And it's not even like hunting whales.It's just like fishing just seems like crazy.
All of that is still like, I mean, that's why there are reality TV shows about people that do deep sea fishing now.
40 men in one ship hunting the sperm whales for 48 months think they have done extremely well and thank God if at last they carry home the oil of 40 fish whereas in the days of the old Canadian and Indian hunters and trappers of the West when the far west in whose sunset sun still rise Was a wilderness and a virgin the same number of moccasin men the same number of months amount done horse instead of sailing on ships We'll just say not 40, but 40,000 and more buffaloes the fact that if need were could be statistically stated.
Yeah, it shows you, I mean, this book could have been an eco-module book too, because it's just so much about like- Well, I think every, to a certain extent, every book could be an eco-module book.
Yeah, yeah, but this is like the extent to which man has imposed its will on man.
Oh, there was another thought that I had that I wanted to, because it was about the whale representing God, and specifically, I think Melville being like, that's not what's going on here, is that in the beginning,
before he gets on the boat, they're talking about the lay, right?The lay is the share that each person gets.It's not Ahab, but there are two other captains that decide the share that each person gets.
And Ishmael wants 275th lay or something like that, which is not, it's a small share, but he's inexperienced and whatever.And they initially say, you'll get the 777th share, which is almost nothing.
but also like 777 is like a specifically holy number, right?
And so it marks this idea that he's going on a holy mission, that his mission is going to be this like mission toward religion or in opposition to, that he's going in there to strike down this being that is representative of something. immense.
And then they're like, no, no, no, no, he'll get the 200.And then they cut that short.So it's like, oh no, this is not a holy mission.This is the mission of a guy doing a thing that is ill-advised and is going to get everybody killed.
I think there is, like, he just wants to go on a boat and then people are like, well, that boat has some baggage kind of, right?Like, it's just like, that's not just like a boat.Like that's like a particular boat.
Like, even like, there's like, like I was also like, I don't remember the specifics.It's again, like 650 pages ago, but there's like, like the guys who own the boat, but don't go on the boat.
And then there was like the captain and there's like the whatever.And just like, Oh yeah.But like, well, there's a, like he does this stuff, but like, we're like, we're the ones in charge.
And I'm like, but on the, on the open sea, it's just like, well, they're not there.So yeah.Yeah.
I forgot.I said this to you very early on how much of this is found in the X files.And I also did not realize, but I should have how much of this has just bled over into common parlance.
Like what like Starbucks for one?
Well, yeah, but I'm just talking about like like the white whale being like the thing.Oh, yeah.Yeah.Yeah.Sure.Like I should have thought about that, but that's, you know, um, but Starbucks is also what Scully's dad calls her.Yeah.
There was another thing early on.
I mean, the Chris Elliott movie Cabin Boy starts with him getting into a cabin in bed with a, with a big burly sailor guy that lays down with him.
Well, in chapter 40, they're like, they sing a song, Farewell and Adieu.And I'm just like, oh, Quint was singing this song in Jaws.
So it's like things like that.Like, but it's also, so I was thinking about this.Okay.So, When we did the raw shark texts and there is the description of the shark hunt, everyone is picturing Jaws.
But Jaws is referencing this, so raw shark text is in a way referencing Moby Dick, which kind of feels like everything eventually comes back to when you're talking about obsession or hunt or the sea or whale or whatever.Yeah.
you got to go back to great America module number one, book number one.
There is, there is this great part.I think, I think it might be, it might be Stubbs that says it to, to Ahab or Ahab is talking about getting revenge on the whale and Stubbs is kind of just like, It's an animal.It didn't, like, do you wrong.Yeah.
It just, like, acted like an animal.You think, like, this whale has you in his head when he's floating around out there?He's not.He just, like, was trying to not get harpooned or whatever.Right.
And, like, you're gonna hunt him down and do vengeance on him?He's just being a whale.
I mean there is like there's that meme that a lot of people love to use where it's like It's the Don Draper in the elevator.I don't think about you at all.
But like movie dick Kills everybody on board except for Ishmael and then just goes back and like just eats a bunch of baleen or whatever Just like I don't even remember what I just did up there.
There's a bunch of other days He's that guy's arms.Is he the one that destroys the Rachel to the the cruiser at the end?
Like he kills like four people on the Rachel who are like looking or they're rich like looking for the kid or whatever Yeah, I dish mail, but yeah like every time they like that's going back to what you were saying earlier about like The the whisper network of other ships because it's like they've all been wronged by this whale because it feels like if all the whales For the most part are like traveling together.
Yeah, they can kill a bunch of the small ones, but there's a big one Yeah They see and they're like, ooh, this is like the hall to end all halls.And Moby Dick is just like, nope.
It's interesting structurally too, because you get like all those, like they're obviously not info dumps because they're so thematically necessary.
And it's not like, I think of an info dump as like an author trying to eat up space on the page, but it's like, this is clearly like immensely hard to research and write.
Especially this long ago, right?Yeah, yeah.
So Melville's info dumps are all like thematically incredibly important to the book and to this idea of constructing this creature and this boat for us.
But- Well, I also thought, side note, remember what you're about to say, I think stylistically that also reflects when you're at sea, it's probably long stretches of like things that have nothing to do with anything.
And then all of a sudden you're like, holy shit, there's a whale.You know what I mean?It's just like, It feels like Israel is like, well, nothing's happening this week.So let me just tell you about like what a whale's like skeleton looks like.
Yeah.Or like what whale steak tastes like.But then, and in between those like information, heavy, exhaustive sections, um, most of the real narrative comes from like, um, as far as like show, not tell stuff is concerned.
is every time they cross paths with another boat, that other boat tells the story of people on that boat.
And like, yeah, and what they've, you know, what they've seen.And some like comic stuff too.Like there's this stuff where, like Ahab like can't get on the boat because his leg is messed up and stuff.
Well also like his boat is like, the Pequod is like custom built to like have like little like holes and notches or whatever that like he can just stick his peg leg in and like be able to still wander around and like go on other boats.
But other boats don't have those.So you just kind of like flailing around.
I also think it's funny.Not funny because it's a little sad, but that just a bunch of boats just take like letters just in case they find other boats and they're like, Oh yeah, like we have letters for you.And the guy's just like, they're all dead.
Don't even. It gets just like crazy to be like, just in case you find the Rachel, here's a letter for a guy on board.And then like you find the Rachel, like that's a miracle in and of itself.
And then it's just like, oh yeah, that guy died like 18 months ago.It's, you know.
Yeah, it feels so similar to like, cause there's still like, you know, I'm sure that there's still like those fishing communities in Massachusetts and stuff like that. which feel very similar to coal mining communities.
It's like, oh yeah, this is what my daddy did and what his daddy did and we're here forever and we're doing this thing that's incredibly dangerous.When it's just like, you guys should get up and leave.
You guys should like, I know it's really economically difficult to get up and leave, but like you should pick up stakes and go a couple towns over and just get a job.
especially since like in other parts of the book like they compare to like whalers of older like like there's a very interesting thing about like all the food they brought all the food that other whaling ships have brought or whatever that's like you might think that's a bunch of beer but those were dutch whalers and they can really put away their liquor like it actually made them better just like oh like you're saying that like we are
Stereotypically, whatever.We are like manly men.We are ones who like are able to brave and like be whalers or whatever.But like compared to those guys, we're nothing.Like those were men.We're just like doing, you know what I mean?
It's just like, and each like successive generation is like, oh, well like those guys did it for real.Like we have like GPS now, you know what I mean?Like.
Yeah.I also found it really interesting because like I assumed that because of the emotional connection that Queequeg was going to die,
There is a, there is a literal, like very early on, it's just like about Kwee Kweg dying.He says, um, like 10% of the book from the hour I clove to Kwee Kweg, like a barnacle yay, till poor Kwee Kweg took his long last, last long die.
But just like very early, it's like, no, he's going to die.
But, but you think, um, it seems like he's going to die because he's sick. Right.Remember that section where he's like, it's like coffee for him.It's like quick egg has pneumonia or whatever he has.
And it's like he, they make the coffin and he gets in the coffin and he's like, he just like boots and rallies basically put all this stuff in and then he, and then they put the cover over him and he, and then he's just like, I'm actually feeling better.
Yeah.And he's just, he's just like, yeah, I can't actually be killed like that.That's not,
Well, they're also just like, people like from where he's from can just decide to no longer be sick.And it's like, I don't think that's what happens.
But that's what's great.He's like, yeah, we die from like accidents and from whales.We don't die from like getting sick.
But then the nice sort of poetic irony of that is that by making the coffin and then failing to be able to save people who have fallen overboard, they turn that into a life preserver, which saves Ishmael.So like Queequeg,
kind of dying, but not really dying, means that Ishmael doesn't die.Yeah.
Which is nice.Ishmael's the only one who doesn't die.
Right.Because he falls off the boat or something, right?Like, he's not on the boat when Moby Dick capsizes it.
Which is a classic, classic, like, Robert Heinlein-style move, to have, like, the main guy out of the actual action, so he can't, like... He can't be killed in battle?
Yeah. Can we talk about, this might be a language conversation, so this is right up your alley, possibly.There is an almost comical amount of gay language in this.Yeah, and how much of that is?
like just how we talked and then- Versus like us now being like, oh, like that's seems gay.
Well, like they're talking about, like there's a ship called the bachelor and he talks about like the gay bachelor, which I don't know when gay was no longer used as happy and meant homosexual, but like, that's a thing.
They're talking about like squeezing sperm in their hands.
That's an incredibly long section about the, about the sperm in the hands.They use how pleasurable it is to like feel the sperm, like going between your fingers and just like dipping your hands into vats of sperm.
They used the hard F at one point in a way that I did not know, but that's also, there's stuff like that, like, if you are looking for it, even in modern parlance, it's like, especially toward like the middle and the end, it's just like, there's a lot in here.
Yeah, and also the, the real, like, bromance between Queequeg and Ishmael.
Yes.Which I kind of wish continued more, but seems to kind of, like, go away.
Yeah.But them, like, cuddling and making real, like, crossing boundaries of culture and space to, like, sort of be best buds.Yeah.
Yeah, whether or not that, I think that, like, our modern interpretation of those individual words enhances the homoeroticism of the book.Yeah.
Because you also think about, there's 40 men at sea for four years.
Well, exactly.And that is a recipe for just fucking each other.Which is, you know.
Which is not, it's never explicit in this.Right, but.The most sexual is literally cuddling, right?
Yeah, but there's also like, you know, in Dan Simmons' unbelievably good book, The Terror, it's a book about a ship going through the Arctic.And like, homosexuality is one of the like, punishable by death things that can happen on board that ship.
But also, it is explicit in that book, that it is happening. And I think that if you- Of course.
Yeah, and I think that if you, like, go back and read memoirs of people at, like, British private schools where there are, like, kids and teenagers in the dorms together and stuff, it's like the amount of hand jobs going on in those places are off the charts, too.
So, like, yeah, I think that the homoeroticism is, of course, elevated by our modernization and our interpretations of those of those words, which in a non-deterministic way obviously is not intentional, but in a fatalistic way maybe is.
Maybe we can look at time as the way that language has evolved has actually enriched the book through the evolution of language, or maybe it was always meant to do that.
I mean, I think the homoeroticism is all over the place there anyway, even without the use of any of those, any of those words.
Now, you said that this was a book that was not considered, like, he died penniless.Yeah, nobody gave a shit about this book.
Nobody cared about this book at all.
Do you think that at all played into, like, culture in the 1800s was not ready for, like, a gay novel?No, no, no, no, no.People just didn't give a shit.
I mean, Walt Whitman was a rock star. And Walt Whitman is writing incredibly gay poetry, even though it's deniable how gay that poetry is at points.He can be like, oh, that's not what I meant by that.
But if you're looking at it, it's as gay as Moby Dick is.And I think that even now, You get Pete, I think there's a guy named on Twitter.Who's like a big Cormac McCarthy guy.
I think his name's I actually, you know, like you should bleep out that name when we go through it, because I don't want to like, maybe I might be getting this wrong about this guy.Um, but like, he's a guy that like, is always like, that's not gay.
Like, what did you stop?Like put it, you're putting it through a modern lens and it's not gay.It's just like, one of the reasons why historical things like that have to be viewed through a modern lens.
or the benefit of sometimes viewing them through a modern lens, is because the secret history of that time had to be so hidden, right?The view of the amount of homosexuality going on on these boats, like, if Herman Melville was like, chapter 18,
over the Atlantic.Like, we would all be, like, he would've been, like, you know, he would've been even less successful than he was at the time.
So, it's like, you know, chapter 18, uh, Queequeg's blistered lips touched my neck in my hammock at night to give me a peck before bed.Wink.Yeah, and it's just like, oh, that's nice.And it's, like, still weird in a purely non-intimate way.
like it's that that's weird that's like a weird social behavior if not it's it's a totally normal erotic behavior but as like a social behavior it's strange so um i think viewing when we look at these things through a modern lens it's like we look at it through the modern lens in order to overturn the stones of a secret history
There's something also I think is interesting, and this is, again, not necessarily important, but I always like the framing device of where Ishmael is writing this as a text.
Because he's like, some chapters ago, or later in this chapter, or a few chapters from now.And there's a metatextual element to that that I think is interesting.Again, not necessarily important, but it's always like, oh, so there's a guy in here.
What we are reading is literally, supposedly, you know, within the fictional world, whatever, literally the transcription or the depiction of what's going on by this guy.
Yeah, as a technique, that's faded out a lot.You don't see that in modern literature quite as much as you used to.
I think that's kind of cool.But there was also, what was the one thing I highlighted?Let me see if I can find this, where I was like, oh, that's pretty meta.
One often hears of writers that rise and swell with their subject, though it may seem but an ordinary one.How then, with me writing of this Leviathan, unconsciously my chirography Expands into placard capitals.Give me a condor's quill.
Give me if a series is created for an inkstand friends Hold my arms for the mere act of penning my thoughts of this leviathan that weary me and make me faint with their outreaching Comprehensiveness of sweep as if to include the whole circle of the sea bubble go in there and I'm like so in the text Ishmael is like
I'm writing about this big ass whale, that's why it's important.And then I'm wondering if like Herman Melville's like, I'm writing about a fake big ass whale, I'm really important too.And then everybody like in the real world is like, nah.
Well, you have to, I mean, I, you gotta have an inflated sense of self to, to think that you can write something like this and thank God some people do because otherwise you wouldn't have things like this.
I will say that as we are, or actually it's not that far out.Like this is going to come out relatively soon.
I was thinking about like other things that we've recorded like months and months in advance, but like Brady Corbett, like people are like, why'd you make this?Why is it brutal?It's three and a half hours.
He's like, nobody complains when, if you write a book that's 700 pages, even deserves to be 700 pages.Yeah.
Make a long movie.Who gives a shit?
Right.I was like, I was telling you that I was wrongly picturing that this was going to be something like The Old Man and the Sea, where there's like a 300-page battle between Ahab and the whale.It's not that, like- It's like 30 pages, right?
Moby Dick shows up with 5% left in the book.Yeah.And like, in that time, it's like three days of hunting, and then Moby Dick kills everybody.Mm-hmm. So like, you know, in a 700 page book, that's 35 pages.
And so like the entire, like other 660 pages, like you are looking for the whale basically, but like there you find the whale and he kicks your ass.If this was that, it'd be a different book altogether.
But also if it was a hundred pages, like it would just be like the old man in the sea.Like that's a very short, different book.
I mean, it might be, that would have been a good book to pair with it too.
Right.Um, I haven't picked a Hemingway.There's definitely a Hemingway that is, but it's, he's got a bunch.
I think it's also the interesting thing about the Great American novel module is you're picking things that you either know about or whatever, but there's like 10 different things you could pair with this.Yeah.
And like, when we do next Blood Meridian, it'd be like, well, this works because of X, Y, Z, but it actually would have been better with A, B or C or, you know.Yeah.Whatever.
There's two things left, I think, one of which I'm not going to go too deep on because I should know more about it, but when you read about this book, a lot of people who are critics will talk about how important it is to be familiar with the King James Bible when reading it, and specifically the story of Job.
There was, hold on, I'm sorry, I wanna, there was a very funny thing I thought in, again, the wiki.
Where it said, the book's literary influences include Shakespeare, Thomas Carlyle, Sir Thomas Brown, and the Bible.Just like, you're covering all the basic information.Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just like.It's the entire thing, yeah.
It's like the most important texts or whatever.It's just like Shakespeare, the Bible, the rest.Yeah.
Oh, what am I interested in?I don't know, Jesus Christ, Yeah, but, like, Job is of particular interest, and I guess the Job character that is attached to it is Ahab.Ahab, Job being the character that, like, God and the devil make a bet, right?
That, like, Job will never turn from God no matter what.
And so, God keeps punishing Job over and over and over again.He gives him all these, like, I think maybe he kills his kids.He gives him, like, boils.He gives him all these, diseases, and Job still never turns on God.
I think that the people reading it, the critics, want to attach that significance to Ahab, and I don't see it, but I think that's a flaw with my knowledge about the Bible.
I also think it's interesting, and that may be not interesting, but the first thing I highlighted in the book on the Kindle was talking about Queequeg.For all his tattooings, he was, on the whole, a clean, comely-looking cannibal.
And then, like, hundreds of pages later, you realize, oh, Ishmael also has a tattoo, but it's just, like, whale dimensions.
Yeah, a lot of the shit that he's told us about, he knows because he's some fucking Guy Pearson memento style guy who's just like, someone will tell him a whale fact and he'll just tattoo it on his arm so he doesn't forget it.
Because he is also insane.
Yeah. It's also like, there's one thing where I think he's just like, I don't really remember exactly that, because I only have a certain amount of skin, and like I knew other more important stuff.It's like, guy.
But like, you think about like, oh, this like, sort of meek or whatever, like wants an adventure, just guy in Nantucket, sees like this tattooed cannibal, just like, no, you're also like a freaking, you know, just like tattooed weirdo.
But yours is just like, it's not like tribal or has significance, it's just like, Whales backbone is this many feet was just like yeah.
Yeah.Yeah.Yeah, there's another world in which he's like memorizing train schedules, right?Like that's Like he's that kind of guy.
Oh, yeah.He's a boy loves trains.Yeah Also at the end of that first highlighting better sleep with a sober cannibal, but a drunken Christian Yeah, maybe that's true anything else.You said there's two things.There's that was one.
There's another thing What was what was the other thing?Um
We have a- I mean, some people refer to it as a Minnipian satire.A Minnipian satire.What does that mean?It's hard to explain.It's like a satire that sort of covers a lot of grand social issues and things like that.
But I didn't- I had a hard time viewing this book as a satire, even though I did think it was very funny.Unless it's a satire over, I don't know, like people's obsessions.But it doesn't- it didn't read satirically to me at all, really.
Oh, I have, I'm just going through my highlights, and I have what you referenced before, him being wrong.Next, how shall we define the whale by its obvious externals so as conspicuously to label him for all time to come?
Like, how can we define this guy that will forever be true?To be short then, a whale is, in all capital letters, a spouting fish with a horizontal tail.There you have him.It's just like, no.Yeah, yeah.No guy.
Although maybe that's the satire, just like,
Well, yeah, like for sure.Yeah.Okay, I get that.
Yeah, that works We have a lot of email address lottery at caves closed up me before we the eggs email We got a YouTube comment to address as this the guy that yeah, so Clocktower Titan God bless him commented on our interview with BR Yeager.I
And I think we pretty, not, I know we don't do it every time, but pretty reliably say, oh, you can spoil it.Like we assume people who are listening to this have read the book.So we talked, we read a MacDillatropoulos in the internet module.
We talked to B.R.Yeager and this guy, this guy,
says please warn before spoiling endings man i was halfway through the book when i heard this interview getting ending revealed was a bit of a downer and it's like dude this book is 200 pages long why are you reading why are you listening to an hour-long interview with the author in the middle of reading this yeah just take an afternoon finish the book before you start it's like it's like reading a book review before you i guess a lot of people read book reviews before they before they know but like themselves
But I think there's a difference between like, am I going to like this and listening to an hour long interview with an author about a thing you are currently reading?
Also, it's pretty, I think it's pretty clear from the beginning that we're revealing information about the book.It's not the kind of interview where we're just going like, so what side of the paper do you write on?You know?
Yeah. Clock Tower Titan, I hope you listen to this episode.
I mean, I hope, God bless you, God bless Clock Towers, God bless Titans and all their... Actually, so here is a question for you, not about that, but about a thing that we often talk about.
I said to you, just coincidentally, the week that we were recording this, the Gregory Peck version of this film was re-released on Blu-ray, because like, just, you know, somebody has new rights to it, whatever.
You were saying, you mentioned earlier, you see like a Robert Eggers and it kind of becomes like a Steve Zissou thing.Could this be effectively adapted or is it?I think, yeah, I think it could be.
But how do you, how do you keep the like, for lack of a better word, like the boring minutia of like wailing or do you just not do that?
No, I think you, I like, I think it would be really hard, but I think you could do that with,
I don't know if this would betray the aesthetics of it, because you want the aesthetics of it to be old-timey, and this is a very modern technique, but there is an Adam Curtis-style voiceover narration that you could do with quick-cut inserts of a bunch of stuff that was very fast-paced that could maybe work.
Because it feels like the actual hunting of the whale is straightforward and easy to adapt.You put a bunch of rugged dudes on the boat.
But it's like, that's not what this is.
It's not what the book is about.Yeah.And actually, that's something that is interesting to address.Because if you look at the Goodreads reviews, a lot of them are like, one star, boring.So much of this book is just whale anatomy.
I think like I was not, I did not think it was boring, but I was like, this is not at all what I expected to be.
It's, it's, um, but also like, that's again, we were saying before you're bringing that into it.I'm like, you can't do that shit.Like you have to like take the book for what it is.
Yeah, exactly.Like if you, again, if you want a trim, you could make an 80 minute movie.
where it starts with him meeting Queequeg, and then he gets on the boat, and then there are a couple of scenes where they interact with other boats, but it's just the chase, and then you end up with the...
So here's a related question, and I don't know, I'm sure there are just like a million abridged versions of this, but we were watching Insidious recently, and like, as I'm reading the book, the kid in that has Moby Dick on his nightstand, like he's like a 10 year old kid or whatever, but it's like, it looks like a 200 page version.
Like there's, does that just cut out all of the whale facts you think?
I don't know, but I had a student at Passaic County Community College.And he came in and he told me that he had read Moby Dick over the weekend.And I was just like, eh, no you didn't.
You could, but it's, you spend, if it's like 700 pages, like I read quickly. I still probably spent 12 to 15 hours reading this.
There's a thing that David Foster Wallace said about when Infinite Jest came out, where he was like a little angry at like the amount of positive reviews that he was getting.Sure.
Because these reviews were coming out within a week of the book being released.And he was like, the people that are fawning over it are not actually taking enough time to read my book.Right.
Like they're like getting an impression going like, oh, he must be brilliant.Look at what he's doing.Let me write it up as I, without like really taking the time with the book.And I think this book is a book that, I mean, we built a month in for it.
Yeah.And then I read it a little bit more.What, how long did it take me to read this?
Well, well, well, like, well, like a week and you're like, you're like, you can, yeah, I was, I was like, I think we can do this quicker than a month because it ended up being a book that read a lot more quickly, but it still took us three weeks.
I started it.Well, I also had my sister come up, but yeah, I read it in three and a half weeks, but that was also like including four or five days where like I wasn't reading as much as I should have been to keep up.
But yeah, I could, I could have done this in three weeks easily.
Yeah.But the idea of reading it over a weekend is like, why don't do that to yourself?
Unless you're like, if he, if he had, if Liam had approached you and been like, I could not put the book.Like, I think, I think it's a matter of like, how you, as not, not opposed to like, you know what I did this weekend?I read Moby Dick.
It's just like, no, I, I was obsessive.Like Ahab, I could not put the book down.I read it for 12 hours.
Like the only book that I've ever, and I know that you are able to read and look forward, like you, the way you described to the honorable judge matter, like you, when you're in a good book, you like, he was like, I get tired when I read, like, you get like, it energizes you.
The only book that I remember that ever being like really truly was when I was like 12 or 13, like the fourth Harry Potter book came out.Like I literally, I got it in the mail like 10 o'clock in the morning and I read it until I went to bed.
And like, I read that whole thing that weekend, but just like at that time, like that was like the most important thing in the world or whatever.
But- My advice would be to not read more than a hundred pages a day.Of any book?Of any book.
I think the same thing with like binge-watching, like don't watch an entire season of a show in a day.
Don't read more than a hundred pages a day.I think, I think especially if a book is difficult, you want to take your time with it.I remember when I read Against the Day.What's that?Thomas Pynchon novel.
It's his biggest book.It's not his most complicated.In some ways it's his most fun book, but I was reading, it would take me a half hour to read 10 pages of that book.Or maybe it would take me an hour to read 10 pages of that book.
It was, it was, it was, it was, it was like a very like.Dense. Yeah.And, and like, I was working at the beach at the time, so I would have these seven hour shifts where I would, I could just read the whole time.
And it was still like, I was reading like 50 pages a day.Yeah.Like, uh, I, cause I wouldn't, you know, put the book down for a while and fuck around on my phone or whatever.
But like, I could have, you know, probably gone faster and not paid attention to it, but it would have like broken my brain.You're not, you have to be able to pay attention to the thing too.
I will also say that this, you know, there are longer chapters, like there's some chapters like 25 or 30 pages, but like this is like close to 150 chapters, like the average chapter length is like four or five pages.
So like if you it is daunting, but it is like remarkably. Digestible in that way.Like I only have five minutes like you could probably read a chapter.
Yeah any book that breaks things up into like Bathroom chapters.Yeah, like chapters.You can read while pooping like that's a Real like the anti-tax new report.That's a reader friendly book.It's it's asking you to like Take bite-sized chunks
I don't know.Great American.So what's your final judgments on it as a great American novel?Or do you want to talk more about it as a question for you?
Was this ever before we had this idea, was this in the Massachusetts module or no?Okay.I think, yes, I think it has to be.I think it's, I think for everything we talked about, about obsession and industry and them being American crew.
Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.I think it's a, I think it is a book that deserves its reputation.
For sure.Do you know when, how long after he died, like what inspired people to be like, you know what?I'm not sure.
That's a good question.I don't know.
I'm not gonna look it up.
We have an email address again.Lottery at caves club that me Meg's reaction to Moby Dick.I was, did you talk to her about this at all or no?
A little bit.Yeah.We both enjoyed the first, but the very beginning, I was surprised at how much I loved this book.
It was much sillier and funnier than I was expecting, even though there were a lot of boring parts too. I found myself thinking about abridgments of the book, which we just talked about.
What parts of the book could be removed for the book to be read by a wider number of people, but ultimately, I changed my mind.It needs the boring parts because it's rooted so deeply in realism.
Obviously, we can take the story as metaphor, but for the book to be taken as real, we as readers need to know that it could happen.
Well, I mean, that's very similar to what—and that's a much shorter version of me talking about the whale as representative of God and then it being like— Nah.It's not that, because there's so much whaleness about this.
Unless you're saying that God is a whale with this skeleton and structure, like, the structure of the thing is so important.
Like, the realism, the material world of the book is so important to the book that we don't need to think about the metaphysical stuff.
Sure. My favorite scene, Egg writes, aside from the first 50 or so pages, was when Stubb tricked the French captain into leaving the Ambergris.
Not only was the conversation in French funny, but I loved the irony of the captain actually searching for the Ambergris, since he used to be a cologne manufacturer. Another part of the book I really loved was Melville's description of smugness.
Quote, the more so I say, because truly to enjoy bodily warmth, some small part of you must be cold, for there is no quality in this world that is not what it is merely by contrast.Nothing exists in itself.
If you flatter yourself that you are all over comfortable, and have been so a long time, you cannot be said to be comfortable anymore.
But if, like Queequeg and me in the bed, the tip of your nose or the crown of your head will be slightly chilled, why then indeed, in the general consciousness you feel most delightfully and unmistakably warm.
Yeah.He's just talking about a gay boy holiday.
There is another thing that I highlighted that I was like, this makes, like, I get why people do this.It's like a fifth of the way in.For the most part, in this tropic whaling life, this is me, that's not Egg.
In this tropic whaling life, a sublime uneventfulness invests you.You hear no news, read no gazettes, Extras with startling accounts of commonplaces never delude you into unnecessary excitements.
You hear of no domestic afflictions Bankrupt securities fall of stocks are never troubled with the thought of what you shall have for dinner For all your meals for three years and more are snugly stowed in casks and your bill affair is immutable Just like no worries.
Just go out to sea.Yeah, and then you come back in the world's like, oh my god, but yeah There's something serene and peaceful about that for sure
Egg goes on, on the more serious side, toward the end of the book, I gasped when Ahab refused to help the other ship search for the captain's son.And I gasped again at the very end when it was the same ship that saved Ishmael.
There's also something very like, um, have you seen Lawrence of Arabia?
No.Oh, you just did though.Yeah.In theaters.
Um, when Pip gets left behind.
Yeah.But they, but he like, uh, they leave them behind and then, and then they come back and get them like coincidentally, they just, they just happened to like be back in the area.
But then he falls off once and they get him and then he falls off again.And they're just like, like, they're just like, we're going, we're not like, I'm sorry, Pip.We took you, like you fell off.That's on you.And they keep going.
It's just like, Ooh, Jesus.Like this sailor's life's not for me, man.No way, no how.
Question for us from Yeg.What do you know so much about or would care to research so deeply that you'd be able to write with mind-numbing, boring realism the way that Melville writes about whales?
I mean, Egg knows the answer of this for me, and there are two things.One of them is the Boston Marathon bombing, and the other one is the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.Really?Yes.
Wow. What do I know about so detailed?I guess the thing is, you don't need to know about it more than anybody, but you need to know more about it than most people, right?
You don't know more about the crucifixion than everybody, but you know more about it than most people.
Yeah, not by a lot.Those are just two things that I spent probably six years of my life very formally research-heavy invested in.
I've never, like, researched a thing that long.I've just been, like, so immersed in a thing that, like, just by osmosis, I, like, retained it all.
I mean, honestly, it might be something insane, like fantasy baseball.
Well, I was thinking about, like, not... I was, like, baseball, but, like, baseball's too broad.
I was thinking almost more specifically, like, like, the seasons of, like, Triple Play Baseball 2000, which I think is basically, like, the 98 season, like that.Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Or, like, MLB showdown, like, the card game, 2000, 2001, where it's just, like, I know what every team, every player in baseball was on in 2000 or 99 or whatever.That doesn't help me now.
And like, but like, I know that like Wyatt Langford or whatever was on the Rangers.
Or what, like, you know, stuff like that.But like, I don't know if that's broad enough.It's not like Wales.It's just like this baseball season.
But like, I don't know, like, I know the Yankees won the World Series that year, but like, I don't know, like, who they beat on the bats.But like, whatever.
I've also forgotten a lot of stuff about the Boston Marathon bombing and the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, because I haven't thought about it in a couple of years.
You got to rewatch Passion and Stronger, baby.Stronger's good.Stronger's really good.Yeah, Patriot's Day.All in all, what do you think Egg could do?What would Egg write about?She does not say.
Yeah, why didn't Egg say?
All in all, a great novel that is a classic for a reason.For a reason, yeah.
Yeah.We're gonna give Egg two minutes.
We have two minutes to talk about anything that's not keeping reading and not criming.But we have two minutes.
So I'm not allowed to... Yeah.I'm not allowed to jump in.
And I can't jump in either.
So you had never read this before.This was a new read.It was a new read for me.But you've read Blood Meridian.I read Blood Meridian.Is it like, is it mostly in your brain?
So like, so thematically.Yeah.Are there things I should be looking for, not for that book, but in comparison to this book?
Nah, going gold.Okay.Going without any like, any presuppositions.
There's also something like that makes it easy but also a little sad that like Melville's been dead for like 200 years, Corbin McCarthy died, like there's like we can't get answers from these guys, like this is just like the book is the book.
Yeah, but I don't want answers from Melville on this.No?Stuff.No, it's like because when you have something that is so dense and rich, it's the Owen Meany thing, right?Like you don't want John Irving telling you.
Would you fight Herman Melville?
My suspicions are that Herman Melville, like John Irving, would whoop my ass.John Irving just happens to be very old, so I think I might be able to take him down.
Well, Melville's like 250 years old.Yeah, I know.
But if you're talking each of those guys when they're like- In their writing prime.Or just the same age as me, I think both of those guys would whoop my ass.Yeah, probably.I don't have any pretenses about whether or not I can.
It feels like on average, everyone from like 200 years ago would either destroy us or be destroyed by us.Like, I think that like the weak are like cosmically comically inferior in terms of like medicine, like the baseline of like health.
And then the people who like were raised on like steel working or whatever, we don't even have a shot.
Yeah.Um, funny thing to time travel to just be like time traveling back in time, just to be like, I'm just going to whip some people's asses.
Like what year, what year is my specific set of fighting skills best suited for you ever see or hear about those videos of like, I don't remember which Gracie brother it is.
It might be like Renzo Gracie, you know, the Gracie family, the Brazilian jujitsu guys.No. So hoist Gracie won the first couple of UFC's.Okay.
He was like, Oh, is this a fighting mutual loneliness?Is this, are they referenced in that or no?Yeah, I'm sure.I think I know the name from that.Okay.
I think one of the Gracie's Renzo Gracie had a series of videos that you used to be able to watch on YouTube where this is a guy that is like one of the best fighters in the world, but he's also like not,
he doesn't look like a professional wrestler or something like that, because like Brazilian jiu-jitsu is about like grappling and using people's, and he would like go to the beach and just like, you know, hit on like the girlfriends of like big jacked guys at these like Brazilian beaches until those guys would try to fight him.
And then he would just like destroy them.
And then it would be like, this is like the, like a kind of like a girls gone wild style, like pay, like video that you could buy of just like this guy that was just like a Brazilian jujitsu masters, like fucking destroying regular dudes on the beach who thought they could beat him up because he was being a dick to them.
That feels like cruel and unusual.Like, you know, using like you are a registered weapon or something.Yeah.
Yeah.Like it should definitely be illegal and probably is.
Yeah.Right. The egg is not responding, so just keep reading and keep writing in.
Yeah.Today's crime is that thing that Renzo Gracie just did.I mean, not to be, like, not creative, but, like, that's a pretty decent crime.It's a pretty specific crime.Right.Oh, I would do anything for love.
I would do anything for love.But I won't do that. No, I won't do.
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