Hey everyone, welcome back to Looking Outside.I am so excited about this conversation.Today, we're talking about one of my favorite topics from a unique lens.
We'll explore what sets brands apart in a fast changing competitive landscape and how to build a brand for the future.And we're doing this with an absolute rock star in the marketing world and a fellow podcaster.
A huge welcome to the show to Awana Leontay.
Oh, thank you so much.I'm so excited to be here today.I mean, you're the rock star and I'm so, so, so stoked that you have me on the podcast.
Okay.Now I have to pause for a second.Did I pronounce your name okay?Oana?
Everyone is worried, but everyone is doing it perfect.
Yes.It's really easy and you've done it well.We've just given you some extra brand recognition, repeating the name a few times.Can we talk for a second about your amazing background?It's so cool.And this is your podcasting background, yeah?
It is.Yeah, it is.And it's new because I just remodeled my office and it just gives a different sort of motivation coming in and recording.So I'm excited.
I love that.Yeah.It's a proper studio.It's got amazing colors.The colors are actually looking outside colors as well.So if you did that on purpose, thank you.I did that all for you. Thank you so much.We're just so aligned.We're so in sync.Yeah.
This is a great start.All right.So obviously you have a very large following online and anyone that's tuning in that's like, Oh my God, Juana's on the show.
You're going to be so excited, but for everybody else, let's do a quick intro into who you are.
I'm originally Romanian.I moved to Spain to Madrid when I was 19.I've lived there for 14 years, got married, worked in a bunch of really big companies like Disney, Warner Brothers, Paramount, had an amazing time there.
And then about 10 years ago, I decided that Spain was too hot for me, decided to go for a much better weather.I don't know if I did that right.Moved to Germany and ended up working for Puma for 10 amazing years.
I've had so much fun working for the brand and I have so much love for the brand.And recently I decided to, after 20 years in the business, create my own brand consultancy business.
which is called Unmatched Brands, and I am on the journey to make branding a better place for marketers and bring the magic back to branding if I can.
You're definitely doing that.
So for anyone that wants to see that in action, the Unmatched podcast is a great example of some of the more in-depth and kind of very different and unique conversations that you have about the marketing field and about innovation more broadly in the kind of business world.
It's a fantastic podcast, highly recommended, obviously.You're also writing a book.So what aren't you doing?
Don't ask me that because having a family, starting a business all at the same time, I have two small children, it's a lot, but I'm having so much fun.
Work doesn't seem like work when you're doing what you love and what you're passionate about and what you're good at.
So I'm trying to keep up with the world, keep up with the crazy social media world that we live in, but I'm trying to have fun and discover new ways of not just meeting people, but also doing business and I think that's the most exciting part for me right now.
There's a lot of really exciting things in store as well, I'm sure.Congratulations on the business.
What I love about your intro is that you started off by saying you're Romanian, so it's obviously still a huge part of who you are and your identity and you seem like a very global person as well because of the different places that you've lived in and the global scope of the work that you've done and now being based in Germany.
So how much does that shape, do you think, your approach to marketing?And I ask that in part because I think a lot of marketers approach it in a very siloed way.How important is it to really think globally?
Huge.And to be honest, I think this is the third time today that I'm talking about this.A friend of mine, a super good friend of mine, Jaime, who is an amazing YouTube personality and he's also a mentor to me in so many ways.
He told me once, you know what, your superpower is that you've always been an outsider looking in.
When he said that, it was so obvious, but it just made me realize how right he was because I've always thought that the fact that I was from somewhere, living somewhere else, was a liability.And I've always found that to be a problem.
For the longest time, my struggle was to try to fit in these new places where I ended up by chance or by whatever, the will of the universe, however you want to call it.
And so it's only been recently that I realized that actually this way of looking at the world and this way of not having a siloed approach, as you said,
to not just marketing, but just life in general, allows me to connect the dots in ways that not everyone can.
The biggest journey for me, and that's why Unmatched came to life and that's why I'm writing the book, is to understand that actually everything that makes you, you is the superpower.It's never a liability.It's always a resource.
It's a parallel between the individual brand and the company brand in so many ways. We tend to look outside, no pun intended.I didn't do that on purpose.
We tend to look outside other brands, other companies, other people who are successful and we try to benchmark ourselves with those things or those people or those companies and then that's when things start to go south.
for brands in general, because that's when you stop looking inside to what makes you you and what makes your brand unique and matched.That's the only way that you can win, by being confident in who you are.
I love that so much.And I think that it's so true, whether you're talking about personal brand or the brand that you're leading, is that we do spend so much time trying to fit in.
I think a part of that is the pressure, whether it's real or imagined, of brands wanting to keep up with other great brands or to keep up with the pace of change, to keep up with the latest platform, technology, a way to engage with customers, stay relevant.
How much of that pressure do you think is kind of self-inflicted and actually non-existent?
It's funny, I would have given you such a different answer to this question if I wouldn't have listened to something that Scott Galloway said literally two hours ago. And I completely agree with this point of view.
He said that authenticity always has a price.And the only way that you can be authentic is to not live in fear and to have nothing to lose.Think about it, right?His point was he made more money than he could ever need.He's very direct.
Sometimes he's very controversial.Sometimes he takes things to the very, very limit. He's aware of the chance that he can be canceled by the culture, the society that we live in today.
And he's okay with that because he said that he's at a point where however bad things can go for him, he has enough money to literally, that's what he said, which I found amazing, buy a house in Ibiza and take his wife and his kids and just live there in the best way until the end of his life.
I actually think that you can be as authentic as you want when you have nothing to lose.The other thing that he said is not having anything to lose and also have unconditional love.
Taylor Swift, I always think, I think it's a great benchmark for brands.The Taylor Swift effect, right?She's so loved, like there's almost nothing that she can do wrong that would get her canceled, although she was very close to it once.
But she's at the point now where the culture has embraced her so, so very much that there's very little that she can do to make it all go away.I don't think it's self-inflicted is the fact that we don't feel in control.We don't own.
the way to be authentic because we have so much to lose on a daily basis.
This is a slightly biased question because obviously I work for McDonald's and it's often named one of the best brands in the world and our marketing is first class, one of the most innovative brands.
But what tends to happen with mainstream brands and also I guess the parallel with the Taylor Swift example is that when things hit so mainstream and everything is going so well that there's almost a fear of keeping up with your own momentum.
Do you feel that gets in the way of brands continuing to try new things and evolving?
Absolutely.Especially the bigger the brands, the bigger the heritage, the more things you have to lose.And I also come from a similar background as yours, right?I also worked for very big companies.
And I've faced that challenge myself in my job every single day as a marketing director, not just at Puma, but also at my previous companies before.So I completely understand that.
There is way more, I wouldn't call it maybe fear, but more consideration towards what the brand stands for, what the heritage and the image is and how much you can lose by making the wrong move.And I think that sometimes leads to...
paralysis and to predictability.You know, you don't make the same decisions.You don't hire the same people.You don't think in the way that will get you different results.You try to maintain the status quo. because that's what you want.
It's a huge ship, right?So how do you make that huge ship go sideways?You have to really turn it around like with great force and sometimes it's all about revolution and not evolution.
And people are much more comfortable with the idea of let's evolve what we have, because to be honest, and I totally understand it sort of works.
But I think what you're missing there is the opportunity of doing something much better, much more innovative. much more out of this world that consumers can connect to.
Do you think that big brands are not as good at experimenting as smaller brands?
I talk a lot about the Gymsharks of the world, and I think they're such a good example of a brand that knows exactly who they are, and they're just doing such a good job at positioning themselves.
And that is a risk because they're actually niching down.They're not spreading themselves wide to reach more people, they're actually saying, no, we're just for this tiny amount of the audience.
But they're so confident that audience, who I call their super fans, are going to embrace them, support them, advocate for them, that they know that by doing this, they're going to spread the word to a much bigger audience.
So you know about Gymshark, I know about Gymshark. The awareness is there.I think that when it comes to bigger brands, you don't have the same level of visibility of one single face that represents the brand as much as a smaller brand.
The smaller brand typically is much younger. has a founder who is the face and represents very well the consumer base of that brand.
And that plays a huge role because that founder, he or she is surrounded by a marketing team of equally young marketers who are also practitioners of the craft of marketing and social media, and they are all on social media.
And so they speak the language of the generation that they're approaching.In my experience, the biggest challenge that happens with bigger brands is that the gap between top management and the consumer is way too huge.
So in order for you to tighten that gap, you'd have to have the, I always joke, the junior social media manager of the brand in the boardroom with the CEO talking to each other.And that doesn't really happen all that often.
That's such a powerful thing that we're starting to see, well, hopefully we'll see more of it, but we're starting to see a little bit with a lot of brands creating a youth advisory council inside of their organizations where they are bringing in the voice of the next generation or a younger voice because we know that those boardrooms are
on average age 53, bringing in a younger voice and then the opportunity to bring your fans in to directly speak to those business leaders that are making decisions in essence for them, right?
Like if we still believe that the customer is the ultimate boss, maybe they should have a bigger seat at the table.
I agree.And I want to say also one thing, I think it's fine that the board is filled with 50 plus people that are very experienced, that have lived a lot.Hopefully they've not just worked one single job at one single company.
and they have a much wider experience.We need that sort of experience to manage a huge ship.
And I think that the best way to complement is to have experienced people at the top that will know how to get us out of trouble when the trouble hits and combine that with the skill of the youth that know how to connect with the consumers.
in a much better way.My sort of challenge here is not so much with the age, but with the mindset of the people that sit in the boardroom that are hopefully willing and open to listen to the people that are closest to the consumer, right?
And really listen and understand what they're saying, because maybe they're not saying things in the same way that top management would typically understand the language, the business language.
So opening up to listening and understanding what the younger part of the team is saying is, I think, one of the most crucial things that leaders can do and develop.
It's a really good provocation that the age comes with experience and sharing a lot of that knowledge that has been gained over your decades sometimes in the industry.
That's also really important when we're thinking about upskilling the next generation and creating the next generation of leaders is You don't want that knowledge to be lost.
And a lot of that has evolved and it's changed with the times and it's in some ways really transforming even the marketing theory and practice.
So it's important to balance that with the way things have been done or even like the reasoning and the legacy behind why decisions are being made.
Like bridging the gap between those two is really important as well when we think about the future of the marketing skillset.
As much as I'm all pro younger generation taking the lead, and I've always done that in my teams as well, I've always encouraged my younger team members to take ownership and go and just conquer the world.
At the same time, I think that there's also there an opportunity for younger people to listen more and to think more.
What I see happening with my younger colleagues and younger part of my former teams is that you tend to get very much pressured by peer groups and what you see on social media and very much driven by the performance side of it.
You tend to lose sight a little bit about the meaning of things. Why is marketing there in the first place?What is brand there in the first place to do?What are the goals?I'm a very pragmatic person.
I think in this terms, I think marketing is there to help you sell.And brand is there to build this perception of the brand with the consumers in ways that will build a trust. so that they eventually purchase from you.
Those things have to work in tandem, right?
Being aware that this is a job that has to be done, so it's like we're not saving the world, but as brand marketers, not performance marketers, as brand marketers, we want to do the best job at reflecting the values
and the mission and the vision of the brand so that the consumers can see themselves or the other way around, actually.
The way it's done now is that the brand has to reflect the vision and the mission and the values of the consumers internally and then reflect that back as a mirror, right?
So understanding that marketing is there to sell, performance is there to sell, but brand is there to build legacy. and create an impact.I think it's fundamental.
The younger generation seems to think that marketing is just about numbers and data and performance and hooks and virality.
And I really don't think it is, or at least when I started my career 20 years ago, that's not what I learned marketing was all about.
That's actually the question that I was going to ask you.
How do you measure the success of a modern day brand in the context of our obsession with data and quantifying things and econometric modeling and A-B testing and neurological testing, whether the creative works, et cetera, like we're almost trying to, you know, the balance between the art and the science of marketing, we're almost like weighing the science a little bit more.
Yeah. than the art and that obviously means that we feel like it's a box ticking exercise, like it's a formula.If I've done this, I'm good to go and we're missing almost like the magic of marketing.Does that still exist?
Well, that's exactly what I'm so keen about bringing back.I think that we've lost it a little bit because we get drawn in this constant push top down of achieving metrics and goals and KPIs.And I think those are all fine, by the way.
That's how you build a business, right?This is how you grow a business.If you're not KPI driven and data driven, you are not going to make it.I completely agree that data is needed and measurement is needed.
And so, yeah, on the other side, on the flip side of it, I think there's some things that literally cannot be measured. I'm sorry, I don't think you can measure fully the impact that a brand can have.
How can you measure the impact that Apple has had on society, on creatives, on creative communities?I mean, you can only measure that looking backwards.In hindsight,
You can look back at what they've achieved and what they've done and how the brand has grown and the impact that the brand has had on culture, but you couldn't have necessarily predicted that in 1984.
Having the right vision at the top and the patience will automatically put you in a mindset of Let's see what we need to do for the sake of the brand, which is a long game that we need to play.
And then let's see what we need to do in the short term and in the midterm so that we are profitable, we make revenue, we can continue to support all the operations that we have within the company, in the business, so that we can keep investing in the brand.
But one without the other, I don't think it would work.
I think you've touched on something really important there too, which is that in the example of Apple, it's a brand, but it's also a product and it's a service and it's a promise.And it's so important for marketers to also think
operationally about how they engage multiple parts of the business to make the brand come to life in hopefully a harmonious way, in a relevant way.We're thinking about innovative brands, but should we be posing the brand as the company?
Should we be thinking more about innovative companies?
I think it depends on the brand and on the company.I think innovation can come in so many different ways.Innovation is not necessarily something technical.Innovation can be a way that you are coming to market.
It can be the way that you're presenting a product all of a sudden, the way that you're doing your marketing, the way that you are.
Speaking to your consumers and you work in Foresight and you understand that the way that you look at the future, but also you look at the past and also the way that you communicate with consumers today, I personally think that's a space that needs a lot of innovation.
right now and you can let me know if I'm wrong or not.I think consumer insights specifically is a space where there's all the opportunities to innovate and understand how consumers evolve, not just behave today.
Yeah.Well, I would never tell you that you're wrong.You're spot on.Wow.
You're actually, you actually articulated really beautifully what we call the futures triangle, which is really understanding the pull of the future and the like push of the present and then the weight of the past and balancing those three things when we're thinking about where to take the brand.
In speaking of the future and pushing brands to look at new opportunities, one avenue you already spoke to before, which is.
You know, you look at those super fans and the niche audiences that are emerging and maybe the fringes that are starting to come through that give you like an indication of where the opportunity lies in the future and you double down on those.
Another avenue is thinking about maybe how your brand. currently exists with your mainstream audience in ways that you don't leverage.
Like in McDonald's, we talk about fan truths and had this massive success and thinking about tapping into like odd little behaviors that we didn't create, that fans created with our product.
I can imagine that you've had a lot of those types of examples in the sports category as well with humor because it feels like such a personal thing as how people engage in being active and their health and fitness and therefore how brands play a role in that.
Absolutely.And I think all the big brands that aim to create impact and legacy will notice that there's this like small pockets of their most loyal fan base that will do something completely unique with the brand.And I think if I'm not mistaken,
I've been recently in Cannes and I've actually listened to the McDonald's CMO talk about how that is being done at McDonald's.And I thought that was very interesting.He said something that really spoke to me.
And he said, at that point, when you see that happening, you have to minimize the risk of something going south.But at the same time, you need to let go.
And you need to let go and just allow culture to embrace the brand and to do with the brand what they want because they're owning the brand in reality.And I thought that was such a good point.You don't own the brand once it's out there.
And so you can't be so controlling about how people engage with it.And this is how you also nurture the super fans, allowing them to co-create you know, the vision of the brand together with you.
And when you allow them to do that, you might learn a thing or two about your brand yourself because they might do something with it that you have never thought about.And that's maybe where the magic comes from.
I love that.Was that Tarek Hassan?Yeah.Yes.I love Tarek.He's the best.Another marketing genius.So that's two in the podcast so far.Myself not included.Share included. Okay.
So then co-creation with our customers, I think is just a huge future opportunity.And we've seen that not through just customization of your product, but the ability to create marketing campaigns together with your fans or with your customers.
I know you talk about this quite a lot is putting the customer back into the heart of the strategy and really bringing them back into the mission plan of your brand.
What's like the key way for brands to do that other than maybe the predictable way, which is just to listen to them more?
The question is also, what does it mean to listen to the consumer more?Everyone talks about knowing your consumer, but what does it actually mean?I've loved this example from a brand called Waterdrop.
It's basically these little drops that you put in water and it's different flavors.It's a company based in Austria, in Vienna.And I really love it.
And one of the things that they do is that, I think it's once a month, they have a board meeting with a consumer.And so it's literally all the board members and a consumer chosen randomly in different parts of the world.
I've seen funny images where everyone was in the boardroom at Waterdrop and the consumer is in a car on the phone like trying to talk to the top management of the company.But it's pretty cool because they ask them a lot of very deep questions and
This is where I believe the magic also lies in speaking to literally one person at a time.I think we're a bit overwhelmed with this idea of data and the more data, the better.And I wonder if that's true.
I wonder if you're looking at a huge amount of data, if you're going to miss The little insight that actually you won't know if you don't speak to a real person who's using the product.
And then there's another brand called Heights, which is a supplement company based in the UK.And what they've done is they've tested their packaging with consumers and allow them to give feedback on how exactly they're using their packaging.
Where do they place the packaging in the kitchen?Is it on the counter or is it in a drawer?Is it creating any friction?They've realized how they can improve on their packaging by speaking to consumers one-on-one.
And I think we really underestimate the power of literally getting one strong insight from a person randomly that will just light the light bulb for you. on what it is that you can do.And I'm not saying that's always going to happen.
Maybe you're going to have a hundred conversations that are going to lead nowhere. But I think this should be common practice in small or big companies that you actually speak with consumers and go deep into how they're using your product.
And maybe take you outside of the bubble as well, because we think that customers or human beings generally are predictable and assume that people are just like us.
And I'm talking specifically around a boardroom or a set of leaders or a set of CMOs or marketing directors. These are people who have very lucky jobs.They're well paid.They're probably living in nicer parts of the world.
They're not like trading off in a three second decision, which brand can I afford?
And that's going to make the kids happy and it's going to be actually eaten in the lunchbox or whatever, that kind of split decision at the fixture because we can afford to generally buy what we want and we can access whatever we want and.
It's a very different kind of decision-making process and it's important to get back to the real world as well, get out of the boardroom, speak to real customers.
I would say also not just the board members.I think it happens to all of us.We tend to work in very nice HQs, big brand level.We have access to super nice canteens, playroom areas.I don't know, like.
football courts and basketball courts and time off and all these sort of luxuries that other people in other parts of the world don't have.So I don't think that privilege sits only at the top level.
It sits across the whole entire marketing organization and I think more marketers need to go to the store. and speak to the store manager and understand what is the feedback that they're getting from consumers.
They need to go to wholesale and department stores and figure out how your product sits across many different aisles with many different competitors.Is it visible?Is it not?Different industries are different in your industry.
The way that marketers can do that might be a little different, right?But go and experience the product.Go eat the product in your case. to the competitors and see, is it better?Does it taste better?Does it not?What am I missing?
What can I experience with competitors that I don't experience with my own brand?You know, what is funny is that I've noticed that people tend to be afraid of experiencing the other brands in the fear of not being loyal to, it's a weird thing.
So this is a funny thing that happened to me quite some time ago.I was in a like a very important meeting with some very important people.
And one of them, and I won't say who, said about the competition that he wouldn't know how that their product feels because he's never experienced it, obviously, because he only experiences his own product.
And I thought, oh my God, like that's terrible.That's terrible.If I would be him, I would only focus on the competition and like seeing what they do and how is it better or worse than ours and how can we improve our product or what is it missing?
What are we missing in the market?People need to be a bit more relaxed about understanding where we sit in the world and be just realistic and humble about that position as well.
If we can't personally as human beings connect with the category that we're operating in, find what is it that is appealing to customers with our competitor?What are they doing well?And remove a little bit of ego.
Like, yes, maybe we're the market leader and maybe we have the better product, but what is it that's actually really working and appealing to people here? I did this when I came to the U.S.I made it like a mission to go and try all of the fast food.
It was a very healthy year for me.And anytime I travel even now... I bet you enjoyed it though.I loved it.
Tell the truth, you enjoyed it.
I loved it.I was just in Wisconsin.I'm like, Culver's?That sounds interesting.Like, let's see what people like about this brand.But that's kind of a more personal engagement also with the category that people should have.
Yeah, you absolutely need to.You need to experience the whole brand.You have to immerse yourself in other brands.And also I would say, not just in your category, in your industry.
When you talk about looking outside, for me, the way that I look outside a lot is not just looking into my own silo and looking into my own industry, but looking outside.
the box and speaking to different people, you'd be surprised how many connecting points you get by speaking to people in different categories, like we're doing now.
You learn so much by what other people do and the way that they frame things, the way that they frame concepts of marketing.
Like listening to Tarek and Khan, for example, it just opened my mind in so many different directions that I wasn't necessarily thinking about and it's really useful.
That requires you to be a little bit more open as well, open to being challenged and thinking about something a different way.And you don't always have to agree, but maybe it leads you down a different path that gets you back to a stronger place.
But it's a mindset of learning.It's a growth mindset. Obviously when we're talking about brands and taking brands to another direction or to the next level, a lot of that really requires leaders to really believe in what you're doing.
Like you need the advocates, but you also need to get on board, even if reluctantly.You're senior leaders in the business and sometimes that can be a little harder.
But also when you're starting your own business and your own brands with unmatched brands, you have to believe in yourself.You have to be, I imagine, your own biggest advocate.Was that something that was already building for you during your career?
You had this kind of belief that you could do more, that you could branch out and take this risk and bet on yourself?Or did you jump into it and then build that up?
I've worked on self-confidence and self-belief for many years.And actually, if there's one thing that I constantly have to work on, is that one thing, because you do need that self-belief in order to make this very big leap of faith.
And it is, especially in the world that we live in, it's definitely not easy to build a business.And I would say, especially in marketing and brand, it's especially crowded and tough, right?So, A, you need to know what you stand for.
That's been my journey to Unmatched, and that's where the concept comes from.
And this is where I've spent the last three, four years thinking about that, what that means for me, and what it means in the scope of my career and the next steps that I wanted to make.
What I always knew is that I could achieve anything that I wanted to achieve through work and perseverance and resilience. You can't break me.You can't break me.
You can't ever put me in a situation where I think that I can't achieve what I'm set out to do in the sense that I can outwork anyone.I can outwork anyone and I can I'll learn anyone and that's my superpower.
But self-belief was not one of those beautiful skills that the divine providence has empowered me on.So I had to really work hard for it.But I think I'm getting there and it's a beautiful place to be.
And you have other people who believe in you as well.Can't wait to see what else you're going to go on to achieve.I do realize it is I think like 9 p.m.almost. for you, so it's getting late.
I'm going to ask you, I'll ask you the final question and you touched on it before and I think that your answer was brilliant, which is what your go-to is when you want to look outside, which is to speak to people who are in other industries or other categories.
What about when you're trying to get your head out of the marketing space?What's your go-to?
Technology is always my go-to because I will tell you why.The biggest disruption that we have in our lives is coming from technology.That's why I've branded my business a brand evolution lab.Because it's not about brand building.It's an evolution.
There's so many things happening around us.The consumers are constantly changing.The technology is changing.The social media. As a landscape is changing every year and it's evolving, everything is evolving around us.
But technology has the biggest impact.What I would add is also like curiosity.I have huge amounts of curiosity about learning about things that you don't know.
that can complement even if you don't think they're useful on the spot, but just believing that being curious and having an open ear and heart to listen to other people and to engage with other people and also to just keep learning.
Being what I love to say is just being a student life, being an intern at life, not ever thinking that you have it all figured out.And definitely technology is the piece that is the most intriguing and where I learn from the most on a daily basis.
I'm excited.I love that.Me too.Me too.And excited to see what you're going to do next.Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us on the podcast.And thank you so much for coming on.
Oh, thank you.It was such a pleasure being on.And really, thank you for having me.It was a blast.
Thanks for listening.If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, or share the show, and I will see you next time.Until then, keep looking outside.
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