You can't envy just one thing, right?Like maybe I envy your career, but I don't understand all the sacrifices that you made to get there.And I don't envy those.
Or I envy your, you know, rockin' body, but I don't envy all the times that I went to brunch and you went to the gym.
Welcome to The Whole Damn Pie.I'm Amalia Martino, and my guest today is Alicia Chapman.Alicia is the founder and CEO of Willamette Technical Fabricators, a company that focuses on transportation and clean energy infrastructure.
She is also an activist. The two of us are both part of the Tory Burch Fellowship Foundation, a cohort of businesswomen from across the country who receive technical support, inspiration and resources to grow our businesses.
All things essential when you think about the whole damn pie. this phrase, the whole damn pie, it means to me that I'm not living in the binary and I don't have to make trade-offs, that it's actually possible for me to decide how I want to live.
And I know that's different for everyone.So I'd love to know when you hear whole damn pie, what does that mean to you?
I associate it with this myth of having it all.And I say it's a myth because everything's a trade off, right?
So I think it's so important that we are really honest with ourselves, especially about what we want and what are we willing to give up to get it.
and not feel bad for saying no or saying that that's not important to me or that's not a priority for me.Yeah.And my personal tradeoffs, you know, I like I will not sacrifice my public engagement, my public advocacy.So I'm on a couple boards.
I'm on some appointed commissions.So I'm very active in my community in the state and like sometimes national level going to DC and testifying lobbying.
I mean, it's really important for me to be able to use my platform as a business owner, as a woman of color, as an entrepreneur to try to make the world better.And I spend a lot of time on that.And I have heard people say like, wouldn't
it be better for you to just focus on your business focus on the bottom line?And I don't think so.
Because, you know, the regulatory environment, the state of the city, that is my business, that's my ability to thrive and attract talent and retain talent, you know, it's all related.So That's something I'm not willing to give up.
Um, I have two little kids under two.Oh my gosh.My entrepreneur journey has also been now suddenly having the flexibility to make my own schedule.
And finally, for the first time in my career, say I'm ready to have a family, but also like there's no paid time off for founders period.
At least in the early years, wearing all these hats and there's just there's so many things that I really can't delegate.So that's challenging for sure.And my partner, my husband also works for me.Oh, wow.
So he's my backup at work and my backup at home.So we've got to be really careful about Just setting clear boundaries and not like always talking about work on date night, which inevitably happens.I bet.I bet that happens.
I mean, there are so many things that I used to do that I've given up willingly.And sometimes I'm a little nostalgic about that.
But it's just the price I'm happy to pay to be able to keep up all of the things that I do at work, all the things I do outside of work.
Yeah, that's a lot.I'm looking at you, I'm like, she does an exorbitant amount of things.I don't know how you, how many hours you have in a day.
You sleep less.Yeah, I bet.I would love to hear more about your advocacy work that you do.You said you sit on committees and boards, like, what does that look like for you?
Yeah, so I am on the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco's Portland Branch Board of Directors.It's a mouthful, which basically means I'm one of a handful of local business owners and I represent manufacturing for the Portland metro area.
There's somebody that represents construction and agriculture and healthcare.So across
across the board, across a gamut of industries, and they provide sort of qualitative and quantitative data, but really the context, the boots on the ground perspective to the Federal Reserve banks before they make decisions about the discount rate or the interest rate that we all pay.
So trying to understand when they're looking at labor numbers or they're looking at inflation numbers, how does that really translate from a small business perspective like mine, you know, from the different perspectives of the different branches all over the
country, you really help them make the best decisions and kind of contextualize the information that they're getting.
So that's really exciting because I'm an economist by training and I get to just geek out on data and talk to other really fascinating people. I'm also, I have a couple appointed positions.
So I was appointed by the governor of Oregon to be a transportation commissioner.So we have five commissioners across the state.I represent the Portland metro area who help decide policy related to transportation.
So how are we going to meet our goals of improving our transportation network so it's safer, so it's less carbon dependent, so it's more equitable, and so that we can really
triage are very, very limited resources to try to address some of these big challenge with both operations.
So like, how are we making sure that the roads are safe and in good working order, and then replacing some of our failing infrastructure, which is actually what my business is.So I have that perspective to bring to those conversations.
And then some other things I'm on a board with another Tory Burch fellow.So a random of the 50 women that were selected this year, two of us happen to be in Portland, and we're both on the Better Portland.
So it's sort of like the B Corp Trade Association or like Chamber of Commerce. Oh, that's great.And then Portland has something called the Clean Energy Fund.Okay.
Where big corporations, multinational corporations that are bringing in over a billion dollars in revenue across the board, 1% of their revenue goes into this fund.And the fund is then available for grants for
community-based organizations, nonprofits, and some business collaborations to help them reduce their carbon emissions and ensure that traditionally marginalized populations have access to resources to help them also go green.
That's great.There's so much synergy in our work because I really see, you know, my communication and community engagement work is really grounded in community to make sure that they have a seat at the table and a voice and all of these things.
And we work so much in infrastructure and transit and transportation and clean water and all the things.
So I love that while you're in manufacturing, which I think many people would look at that and say, that's not a community centric industry that you really design your time and your
day and probably your company I'm guessing around some community values.Awesome.I love it.Okay.I'm really interested to know how you got to Portland.
I'm from Seattle so I don't have any excuses but you know I'm a rare, I'm a rare Northwesterner born and raised here but most of us I think come from other places so I'd love to know how you got here.
Yeah, well, both my parents were actually military, Navy.My mom grew up in the Midwest.So she joined the Navy.She enlisted when she was 17 to see the ocean and get out of Indiana.And my dad was actually born in the Dominican Republic.
So his family emigrated to the US when he was a teenager.And he joined the Navy actually to get a citizenship.And that's how they met.So I lived all over the country.And I
ended up graduating high school in Newport News, Virginia, which is a big shipbuilding and military hub in southern Virginia.And then I went to college in D.C.and I was working for the U.S.Agency for International Development.
which is a branch of the government.It's not the State Department.It's not the Department of Defense.It's sort of in between.
So a lot of the projects that I was working on were in post-conflict areas, Afghanistan, Palestine, Libya, helping to build institutions and
literal infrastructure to help those places prosper and really to empower young people to have a positive effect on their democracies so that they wouldn't be recruited by terrorist organizations and become violent extremists.
Wow, that's not a small job.Did you do that right out of college?I did.Yeah, I started as an intern working directly for USAID.And then I got hired by USAID.And then I started working for a contractor that just does USAID projects. around the world.
That's like a plot for a movie, but also like so brave.
That's such a brave thing to do.Yes, I was living in Washington, D.C., but spending about probably about half of my time, maybe 60 percent of my time overseas in the field.
And mostly in really difficult places because honestly, that's where the opportunity was for me to have meaningful work, but also opportunities for advancement.Like people with families didn't want to go where there is danger pay.
So I was, I was willing to take the hard jobs and learn as much as I could and try to move up, which was great.It was, you know, really, really challenging, really rewarding, but I just got so burnt out.
And, you know, people that worked for me actually died and it was not something that I knew I could keep up for long. Wow.So I got to a point where I was really struggling and I actually, I didn't realize at the time, but I had PTSD in Afghanistan.
And I was thinking like, okay, I want to go back to DC and get my PhD so I can do a better job of helping design these projects and design how we're evaluating if they're actually working.And I needed to go back to school to learn some of the actual
math skills to do that.I knew I wanted to go to Pacific Northwest because I wanted to get literally as far away from DC as I could and still be in the U.S.You nailed that one.Yeah.
Culturally, DC is so type A. You go to a party and they're like, who's your daddy and what does he do?It's just like, Who do you work for?How can you connect me?It's all about network.
And Portland's just like, what do you like to do in your free time?It's like very hippie.It was when I moved here.It was just like the joke of Portlandia where young people go to retire.And it felt so collegial and just like not cutthroat.
It just felt like a good place to go be a student, be a grad student again and just chill out.
I mean, I know that you said you were burnt out, you had some PTSD and you were ready for a change, but that's a big change.I mean, that's just not a move across the country.
It is a move across the country, a change in industry, not to mention the two kids under two.Like, what do you think it is about you or what did you learn to even attempt such a big swing? You know, I think I asked this for a couple reasons.
I think we're very planful.I especially see this in younger people today that they are very planful, right?Like I watch YouTube TV or YouTube University and I saw these TikToks and this is how my life is going to go.I'm going to plan it all out.
Right.And we all know that life doesn't always go the way you think it's going to go or the way you planned it.So I'm wondering like what those big shifts in the big swings, how that felt and like, how did you do that?
Yeah, I mean, it's terrifying.Okay.Both my parents took such big risk to be able to make better lives for themselves that I definitely had that sort of ingrained in my DNA.
And then moving around as a young person, I just knew like, if there's not a great opportunity here, or if there's a better opportunity somewhere else, starting over is hard, but you can do it.
And when I decided to get out of international development, because it was just too hard for me to keep doing.And I was so invested in a lot of these projects.
And now it, it really breaks my heart to see what's happening in the places that I used to work.And I know I just wasn't going to be able to keep doing that for long.I saw this urgent need.
And I saw an opportunity to really just bring together some brilliant minds and support them in the way that they needed to be able to do good work.
And that seemed like something that was worth risking, even if it didn't work out, you know, I would learn a ton and maybe I would make some more contacts to be able to figure out what was going to come next.
And I really thought I would hang out in Portland for my PhD five years and then go back to DC.But I just really fell in love with it.And I ended up working for the university.There's an Institute for Sustainable Solutions downtown Portland.
And I got connected with some people that were working on an R&D project for Boeing in the UK.And they had built an R&D center in this place that used to be this thriving manufacturing hub.They made silverware.All that got outsourced to China.
And it was just like, whatever happens when the mill shuts down in a timber town, mess, poverty, all of the despair, the disenfranchisement, you know, everything that you would imagine.Yeah.
And then Boeing came in and built this factory and all their suppliers came in.And then everybody had real hope, real opportunity again.And it was kind of like an overnight success story.
And I met some folks that were working on that in the UK and tried to replicate that here in Portland.And they needed somebody that understood economic development and youth engagement and government contracting and academia.
And I knew nothing about manufacturing, but I had all of those other skill sets and all of the people that were working with the center were like brilliant engineers, but basically like absent-minded professors.So someone had to herd all those cats.
Yeah.And that was really like my crash course in manufacturing.
But it was really all about like, get young people off the streets out of trouble, give them good jobs, give them hope and think about this existential crisis that we're facing with climate change.
How can we merge these two goals of literally saving the planet and helping young people get out of trouble and give them good jobs in manufacturing, building the infrastructure that's going to get us off of fossil fuels and
foreign oil, which was also the root of all the problems.
Yes, you are literally saving the world.Oh my gosh.You know, we're talking about all of these things and none of them are easy to solve, right?
Like to your point, you have all of these people, you're hurting all of these different disciplines to make this one change, which seems like just give young people a job.
I mean, the solution is really that simple.It's like give people a community, to feed their families, to feel like they have a heard voice.And, you know, we're all pretty simple.We all want basic needs met and a sense of purpose.
I feel so much for young people right now because it seems like such a hard time to not know what's ahead of you.Okay.
When did you start Willamette Technical Fabricators?
So I started the company at the end of 2020, so kind of middle of pandemic.
And because of all of the chaos that was, you know, just trying to keep everybody safe, a lot of the things that I had been working on were just shut down indefinitely, especially with university research.
Boeing was going through a big crisis, the first of what we have now seen to be many.And two of the other big OEM, the big manufacturing partners that were a part of this consortium were changing direction.
So I was able to recruit a lot of the most brilliant engineers and tradespeople that I had worked with before, and spin off my company, which I sort of jokingly called WTF, because we knew like, pandemic startup, maybe it's gonna fail, no one's gonna blame us.
But you know, we, we had pretty good intel that there was going to be major federal investments in infrastructure from the bipartisan infrastructure law and Build Back Better, Inflation Reduction Act, whatever we're calling it now.
And I saw the local manufacturing environment, which was so different than the manufacturing environment that I had seen as a high school student in Virginia, really as this potential positive force for change, both in the community and in the global infrastructure supply chain.
This is amazing and it's really important as it pertains to the whole damn pie when you think about melding your values and creating change but also making money.So I understand that you're going through the process of becoming a B Corp.
Sure.Yeah.So it's a little bit confusing for folks because we are a registered benefit company.Okay.So that means we're registered with the Secretary of State.
And we are legally obligated to consider our impact on our people, our community and the planet.So it means we're legally committed to a triple bottom line of
not just thinking about our profits, but we also are then going through the certification to be an official B Corp, which means that we're going through a very rigorous certification process so we can put that little B Corp label on our website and every other B Corp who has gone through this process knows exactly
how hard that is.Yeah.And really the hope there is that we are inspiring others to do the same and live by those values.That is so great.So how does that show up in your company having that triple bottom line?
Well, in a few ways, we take really good care of our people.We're very lucky to have almost no voluntary attrition. Wow.And in manufacturing, especially post COVID, that's unheard of.
So the people that we hire that make it through our training program and decide this is the right career path for them, they stick around and we pay them very well.
We have transparent wages, which means we post on our website exactly how much we're paying everyone.We have great benefits.Everybody's got health care for themselves and their families.And it's the same plan that I have.We do unlimited PTO for
for our office workers so they can have the flexibility to work from home whenever they need or work nontraditional hours because our production hours are nontraditional.
So they might need to be here super early or stay late, but then if they want to take off or take a long lunch break or, you know, work four days instead of five days, whatever it is, we trust them.
They're adults, they can get their job done and it has not impacted our productivity at all.
Everything's been very iterative and we're trying to find the best balance for our employees and their welfare, which then, you know, it's not a short term cost savings, but it is a long term cost savings by not having to recruit and onboard replacements for those positions that we're seeing at our competitors just constantly turning over.
I totally appreciate your vision and that your values are showing up here where you're wanting to create a workspace that values flexibility, provides flexibility, that provides trust, has trust in your team.
And I'm sure they really appreciate that too.
This is also something that's really core to my company at the VITA agency where, you know, we want to provide what we call the Pura Vida, which is work-life balance and flexibility and really trust people to do their best work.
but I like how you say it's really iterative because you know we as founders and as company owners we don't know what we don't know so we are always having to iterate and improve and listen to those who are on your team and you know make decisions that work for everyone.
Thank you yeah it's it's something that seemed really obvious to me coming from from, I wouldn't say the nonprofit world, but from the public service world.And it turns out it's actually a really good business strategy.
And then the same is true for the way that we deal with our materials.So almost everything that we buy as far as like steel is recycled and manufactured in the United States.
We could probably save a ton of money buying steel from China, but we don't do that because we want to support local businesses.We want to be compliant.
If we're working on government projects, of course, but we also just, even when we don't have to buy American, we choose to anyways, because it's better for the environment and the things that we're building are to support the sustainability of the environment.
So it just makes sense. We are also very conscientious about our energy usage.So trying to minimize that, which is also great for cost savings.So a lot of things that I think makes a lot of sense if you look at it over time.
And we're really thinking about the next 10 years, not just the next quarter.
Yeah, that's really admirable.But I imagine there's sometimes things that show up where you have to decide a trade off, like decide one thing over another.And I'm wondering how you actualize this in your work.
Yeah, one way is that we have a very traditionally male workforce.And we said from the very beginning that we were going to have paid family leave for all genders.
And now it's actually a state requirement that there's paid family leave, which is great.
But even before that, we wanted to make sure that we didn't have our dads going straight back to work after their babies were born and making it that much harder for moms to get back into the workforce because of that, even if they weren't our moms.
But then I didn't actually personally take any leave, because I just, you know, I can't.Oh, my gosh.Yeah.And that's, it's not the best example.And I'm trying to do better.But you know, I also didn't pay myself until we were profitable.
And I know that none of my workers expect to take that sacrifice.So I am trying to do better about being really intentional with like, I'm not working these hours and I'm not available and you'll be fine.I've delegated.
You have all the tools you need to be successful.I don't want to be the bottleneck and I don't want to be setting a bad example of what really is expected, even if our policy is explicit.
And that's actually something that's made us rethink our unlimited PTO policy, because what I've realized is sort of the opposite of what I'd hoped, that people would be taking more than the standard vacation.
They're not taking any, or they're working on vacation and they don't ever get a real break.
So we've, we've decided that we're actually just going to completely shut down our office, the last week of the year, the last two weeks of the year, and make sure that no one feels guilty about not working because nobody's working.
So our, our schedule will have to adapt to that as far as like delivery and how we make sure that we're still meeting all of our customers needs.
But I think, you know, as I said, we're iterating, we're constantly experimenting and trying to figure out what works best for people.So if that still doesn't achieve the desired outcome, then we'll figure out something else.
I love your flexibility.We started that a couple years in my company where we close between Christmas Eve and New Year's Day.And our clients understood we adjusted delivery plans and work plans.
And the feedback was like, oh my gosh, it was so good to come back to work.We're knowing everybody was off and I wasn't the only one off and I didn't have a gazillion emails waiting for me.Right.
I think it's nice like I feel like as a business owner those are like the power things that you can do that can really benefit someone's life and as the business owner give yourself a little break.
too, right?Yeah, I definitely think it's a cultural thing where you can look at European countries that take all of August off and they're still leading the world and cutting edge aerospace.
And it's not a mutually exclusive concept to have a good work life balance and still be able to innovate and make money.
So at the Vita Agency, I mean, we're a communications company, but we're really trying to use business as a vehicle to reinvest in community or empower community.
And I know that the work you do is a lot about getting women, people of color and non-binary folks into manufacturing and trades.I'd love to hear more about how you do that and especially any success stories you have.
Yeah, absolutely.I mean, first, I think it started out of necessity because there is a lack of skilled labor, especially in all trades right now.
There was just this generation, I think, of young people, my generation, that didn't really consider the trades as the best possible option out of high school.
We were really encouraged to go get a four-year degree if it was something that wasn't very useful. And there was a lot of just focus on technology and computer science and not enough focus on things that are more what I would consider hands on.
And now we're seeing a resurgence of trades and CTE programs or really like pro manufacturing marketing. Which is so needed because a lot of these are really good jobs, you know, like well-paying jobs.
And I've got most of the people in my shop are making six figures with just a high school diploma.And they really love what they do.It's very creative, it's very high skill, and therefore there's a lot of pride in the work that they do.
but they're also driving past things that they helped build on their way to work, bridges, locks and dams, and thinking like, you know, I helped make something that's really going to last and that's going to contribute and have a positive impact on everybody that I know, which is so rewarding.
And I don't know a lot of people working in other fields that they left to come to manufacturing that feel that sense of pride and that passion that they all have.
So unfortunately, because we have this gap of probably 40 to 55 year olds, like millennials, we've got to expand our recruiting pool.And the most obvious way to do that is to get more women and get more people of color who have
quotes on the podcast, but you know, clean tech manufacturing.And first of all, just expose them to these careers so they know that they're out there and expose their parents.I think this is where we really need to do a better job.
Expose parents to manufacturing that these are not dull, dirty, dangerous jobs or the type of jobs that I grew up with that I would never want to send my kids into.But so much has changed and also the culture I think has changed necessarily.
So it's not something that you would have to be worried about.You know, my little cousin who is non-gender conforming probably wouldn't feel safe in the shipyard that I saw when I was his age.But in my shop, it's no problem.We have
a very diverse workforce, women, people who are non-gender conforming, people of color, young people, people who are past the retirement age and everything in between.And the key to that is no assholes, which I hope I can say without being edited.
But we are very strict about our culture and being not just open minded, but being very supportive of beginners because everything that we build, we're building it for the first time.
But we have been really deliberate about first of all, just putting our values out there like this is who we are.If you're not comfortable with that, it's not going to be a good fit for you.
And making sure that regardless of talent, regardless of experience, if you don't respect the fact that that is non-negotiable for us, we can't hire you.And that means there's no brilliant jerks.
There's no amount of margin that your skill could bring me that can justify changing the culture for the worse and making people feel like I can't safely even ask questions or say, I don't know how to do this, or I'm not sure I did this right.
Can you double check it? Because the things that we're building, I mean it's literally life or death if it doesn't work.
Yeah for sure.I love the term brilliant jerks.So what do you think is next for you?I mean you have two little ones.You're just up out of the startup stage but making such a big impact and so clear.
on the culture that you want, what happens next for you?Do you think like five years from now, what do you envision?Yeah.
So there's another Stanford professor I love, Huggy Rao, who his recipe for a successful business is to ask yourself, do you want to help people or do you want to sell shit?
Because if you're trying to help people, if you're starting from that point, then you'll figure out where you're going to add value and where you're actually going to be able to make money.
So honestly, I didn't start out thinking that I was going to be working on offshore wind, we wanted to make battery electric locomotives.Oh, for various reasons that didn't work out.
And now here we are making components for offshore wind, which wasn't even a market when I started thinking about my company five years ago.Wow.
So we're definitely adapting and trying to think about where the demand is going to be next, especially with technology evolving as fast as it is and the energy crisis that we're in evolving as fast as it is.
I know that I'm going to keep those core values and what we're actually building, what the product is, that's going to keep changing maybe a dozen more times.Brilliant.
Yeah, I'm very lucky to have a mentor who was really my first boss when I was working for USAID overseas in Palestine. And now she's one of my best friends and we've been able to stay in touch for 15 years.
And she really instilled in me the importance of not just bringing problems, but bringing solutions and really thinking about where I can add the most value with my limited time and my broad skill set, instead of trying to think about where I can create this path of professional development.
If I'm more focused on how do I make this better, then that will come naturally.So I really appreciate it.
But I also have been working as a mentor for some of my actual employees and for some young women, especially who I think really need to know that imposter syndrome is real.
And you're not doing it wrong just because it's hard. Oh, Lord, that's a good one.Yeah.Yeah.And then the trade offs thing.We see people thriving on social media.We see their highlight reels and we wonder like, man, how can she do it all?
And the reality is she can't.And expecting that anyone can is setting us all up for failure.Yeah.You can't envy just one thing, right?Like maybe I envy your career, but I don't understand all the sacrifices that you made to get there.
And I don't envy those.Or I envy your rock and body, but I don't envy all the times that I went to brunch and you went to the gym. That is true.Word.I love it.
One thing that I would really like to share with especially young women that might be listening is how important my network has been to achieving my understanding of the whole damn pie and the friendships that I've made and the supporters that I've had along the way.
Because I am part of a lot of like women's professional groups, and it's great to get together and to talk about problems and commiserate and be cheerleaders for each other.But at the end of the day, like I need access to capital.Yeah, I need cash.
Yeah, yeah.I don't need cheerleaders.Especially in manufacturing.
And I think there's a little bit of a misperception that like the reason women aren't CEOs or the reason there aren't more women-owned businesses is because we just don't have the confidence when it's these like institutionally patriarchal systems that are holding us back.
And I would not be able to have grown my business if there weren't other women that believed in me and supported me and lended to me.Yeah.
or vouched for me because they know how hard it is and they know that the double standards that I'm constantly being held to are the higher standards that I'm being held to.
So I really just want to give a shout out to all of the women that have supported me and the allies, you know, the men, especially the black men that have supported me or the Hispanic men, the Latina men that have supported me because they know how fucking hard it is.
And it is really hard to find those allies.I mean it's just it's a different path.I say to some of my friends, colleagues, I don't know all the time, like we're so lucky because we work a lot in the public sector.
I say we're so lucky that we live in this region.I don't know that we could have this business in insert red state or insert southern state, right?For sure.The barriers are higher.The networks are more closed.This is some of my perception.
But the funding mechanisms are different.You know, the funding priorities are different, right?Like equity is not at the forefront of funding or contracting.And that's really taken generations of fight to get there.
And so it's really up to us to keep those doors at least ajar.
Absolutely.I mean, you are a native Washingtonian, so you are very lucky.I was not coming from the South.Yeah.I chose to come here for that reason.I would never be able to do what I'm doing in Virginia. Or in Georgia or in Florida.
Yeah.And I think, you know, I think local governments sometimes get a bad rap or people complain a lot, but it's like, you know, there's a lot of policy things that we should be really thankful for being here that we have access.
And it's only because so many people fought for this access for us to have it.Not perfect yet.Keep fighting.But we got to keep going. I am really inspired by Alicia.
I mean, she is kind of a testament to where you start isn't necessarily where you'll end up.And she has so much confidence in navigating.I mean, she started in working in international relations.
in Afghanistan to now running this manufacturing company in Portland, Oregon, and really thinking broadly about redefining or influencing an industry to make it more inclusive.She really inspires me to continue to live through my values.
And that, my friends, is the whole damn path.
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