Welcome to the CMO Chapter Podcast, where we dive deep into the dynamic world of chief marketing officers.Join us as we explore the careers, insights, and strategies of top marketing executives who shape the brands we know and love.
Whether you're a seasoned marketer, aspiring CMO, or simply just curious to understand what it really takes to step into the shoes of a CMO, this podcast is your backstage pass
to discovering what it's like to lead and innovate in the ever-evolving landscape of business.Stay tuned as we uncover the stories of the visionaries behind the brand. Okay, so I am absolutely delighted to have Una Flanagan on my show today.
Super excited.Una has returned fresh and after having, I think, three, four weeks of fabulous holiday in Europe.So I'm delighted to have you on.Una, welcome. Do you want to start by introducing yourself?
Sure.Thanks, Lucy.Thanks very much for giving me the opportunity to be a part of this very exciting project.So as you said, I'm Una Flanagan.
I'm currently the CMO at Funlab, which is the parent company of Holy Moly, Strike Bowling, Hijinx Hotel and a whole range of other exciting consumer brands.I have been a marketer, I worked out last night for almost 23 years, which is terrifying.
Made me feel every one of my 45 years, that is for sure.I'm also, I'm also recently a non-executive director for a really great
library corporation, not-for-profit called Miley, and really enjoying sort of the breadth of becoming a board director as well.But like I said, I've been doing this for a really, really long time.I've done it across many different countries.
As your listeners will hear from my accent, I'm not an Aussie by birth, but I started my career in Ireland.So I've worked in Ireland, I've worked in the UK, I've worked in Gibraltar, which is just at the very southern tip of Spain.
And then I made the very good decision a decade ago to come to Australia.And I've been a marketer here for the last 10 years.And I've worked across a whole host of different industries, from consumer finance to online casino to prop tech.
And now I'm in out-of-home entertainment.So it's been a really varied 23 years, which is probably why I'm still doing it and still enjoying it.
Amazing, amazing.I think you summarized that really, really well.I mean, yeah, what a, what a background, global experience.You've, you've kind of ticked all sorts of boxes.
So going back 10 years ago, that was when you first moved to Melbourne, is that right?
OK, so, OK, so when you first moved over, I mean, I've had a few conversations with individuals that have been new to Australia. Did you find that quite a difficult time in terms of trying to sort of find it in and then build out the network?
I was incredibly lucky.I was given the opportunity to come to Australia with a role already in place.And that happened because of previous people that I'd worked with in the past and built relationships with who essentially became my sponsors.
And, you know, they knew what I could do.They knew my work ethic.They knew what I was capable of.And they wanted me to come and be part of a new role that they were taking on.
So we, we actually were able to come as a couple to Australia with a ready-made sort of amount of friends.And, and really, it made that transition a whole lot more comfortable.I know that many other people don't have it that easy.And
I know myself even a decade before that when I left Ireland and moved to London on my own.
Obviously a much shorter journey but I grew up in a small town and then I moved to this 9 million person city and no job, no connections and didn't even know what I wanted to do. you know, that is terrifying.
And when you have to navigate that completely on your own, it is a lot.But I was, I was super lucky 10 years old that I had a ready-made network.And that same network I now rely on every single day for advice and, and, and guidance as well.
So yeah, getting a good sponsor in your career early and proving to them what you can do can be incredibly valuable, as I've been very happy
Absolutely, absolutely, 100%.And so, officially, I was the CMO at FunLab, and then CMO, I think it was Nimble, and then local agent founder as well.So that's what, it's about four years, five years as CMO?Probably, maybe so.
three and a half, four and a half, maybe six years, seven years more actually.
Yeah, so have you always had that ambition to actually one day get to the top spot?
Absolutely not and I would urge caution, you know, for anyone who, you know, at the very start of their career who's already made that decision because it is a really lonely position.
you know, being the most senior marketer in any organization is really, really difficult.I, I never foresaw that I would get to that point.
What I tended to do throughout my career was really focus on the things that I enjoyed, that I was interested in, ultimately that I was good at.
I'm not really a big believer in trying to go outside of your core strengths and do things that really pull you apart as a human just because you want to get to a certain job at a certain level.
But I think because I've enjoyed breadth and because I've never really wanted to stay in something very specialized, that the pathway to get to CMO, which is really quite a broad branch of a role, I think it was an inevitability when I look back now because I
tried lots of different things and enjoyed different things, but it certainly wasn't my end goal.
I feel incredibly privileged to be in this position, probably less so from the actual marketing skills side of things, but because of the position that it puts you in as a leader of people, it is an intense privilege to be
in a place where you're actually leading and creating and setting the pace for other marketers.And that's probably something that no one should take on lightly because it's a huge responsibility outside of just the cut and thrust of the job itself.
Yeah, absolutely.It's really interesting because I think now we're on, I think, is it Episode 5 or 6?Not too sure.But I've certainly had some really interesting conversations with various CMOs recently.
And there's a bit of a theme that, you know, when you get to that top spot, that CMO remit,
you know, you're not just focusing on marketing, as we know, you're across, you know, EPNL, you're profit and loss, you're across operations, like it's a whole absolute catalog of exposure.
Like, I mean, how do you, is it just from sort of like going from step to step to step to getting to the point where you become good at that stuff?Or, you know,
Can you sort of give me a bit more insight into kind of like how you've learned within that area?
Yeah, look, I think the key thing, you know, you get a lot of people who go into marketing, at least, you know, in my experience over the last 20 odd years, who loves the creative aspect of it, to believe that just being really good at the creative and brand aspect of it can get you all the way to the top.
And it just simply can't.Like you said, I now have P&L responsibility.I have commercial deliverables that I have to bring to a business.And beyond that, every CMO role is different.So my role also has incorporated digital transformation.
So there's a huge martech aspect to what I'm doing and things that I probably had never envisaged in a CMO role in the past.So you have to. I think in order to get to the CMO role, you have to have breadth.
It doesn't mean you have to be a full expert in every single aspect of marketing, but you have to at least understand the whole ecosystem of marketing, and you have to go beyond that.And one of the things that I learned super, super early was
get to know the numbers and be comfortable with it.I haven't seen a successful CMO who isn't commercial, who doesn't understand how the business actually works commercially.
If you don't understand that, you're going to be laughed at around the executive table.You just simply have to be able to
engage in a conversation about how the business works and how it makes money and you can't operate as if marketing exists in a vacuum over here and so i think this is a breadth to the market and skill set that you need to essentially get to make it to cmo and be successful
but you also then have to become an executive, right?This is the word chief in there.You're an executive.It's much more than just marketing.Then you layer in the leadership aspect of it as well.
And so, you know, the time that you actually spend on marketing when you're a CMO is probably much smaller than most people will anticipate.So, you know, my big call out to anyone who's
seeing themselves as a future CMO, you actually really need to love being a people leader.And if you don't, if you don't actually get something from that, choose a different way to get to a senior role, because this role will not be for you.
Because, you know, you don't, you're not doing the work anymore.You're facilitating and driving a team, and you actually have to sit back and let the team do the work. unless you want to be a micromanager, which is everyone's work nightmare.
So, yeah, it's, it is a, it's a very, very varied role.And it varies really differently from company to company as well.There's no really one-size-fits-all for the role anymore either, which is also challenging.
And when we talk about leadership, I think that's a really valid point, because I think I've mentioned previously, I've managed a small team in the past, but nowhere near probably to the size where you've had.
I mean, again, like, I feel like when you're starting to develop yourself in regards to managing people, It's almost a kind of like sink or swim.I've personally felt it was like off you go, and you're learning as you go.
I mean, did you ever learn from other leaders?Or, you know, have you ever had mentors that have kind of helped develop you?I mean, I guess the more you're doing it, the more you know, well, I know that works, and I know how I want to be treated.
You do learn a lot of it from what you see and observe and I think you also, I think, intuit a lot of it from who you are as a person.
I think sometimes that means that you're a great leader and sometimes it means that you aren't because some people are built for it and some people have to really work hard at it.
I've also been really blessed because I started my career at GE Consumer Finance in London and it was consumer finance and some people think, well, finance is a bit boring.
What GE did, they had the most incredible training platform for every person that worked in that organization, whether it was finance for non-financial managers, whether it was how to lead a team, whether it was how to influence and negotiate, all those core things.
that if you learn them and are conscious of them early in your career, it sticks with you and it puts you at a huge advantage.
And then I went to Paddy Power much later on, which is, for those who don't know, it's the mother or sister company of Sportsbet here in Australia. And again, it was a company that had scaled incredibly during my time there.
And the training program that they offered in terms of being able to learn about people leadership and how to lead and manage teams was incredible.So it's theory and practice.And it's hard, right?
You have to have real conversations, personal conversations with human beings.And some people take feedback really well, and some people do not.And you have to learn how to flex and have those real conversations
in a way that's fair and kind to the human, but also has the better interest of the business as well.And it's not easy.
You have to really have an appetite for it because otherwise you can just ignore things and you end up with poorly performing teams or general unhappiness in a team and that doesn't work for anyone.So yeah, it's hard.It's really hard.
I agree.I think, yeah, and I find there's a fine line becoming, you know, it's all well and good to say we've got a great team because we all get on really well and we all have a pub lunch on a Friday afternoon and we're all friends.
But then at the end of the day, when you are, you know, a GM of marketing or head up or whatever it may be, a CMO, there's always going to be a little bit of that boundary.That's the hardest thing, you know, to try and sort of implement.
I think as long as your team know that you, you care about their development, every conversation that you have is around helping them be better, helping them progress and helping them be successful in their role in your business.
And you take the personal out of it. then i think it's easier but it's that's a skill that you have to really learn that there are very few people that i've encountered to just naturally know how to do that.
I don't think you think about that when you're younger and you're just starting out because you think if i can just be the best marketer that i can be it's going to be enough and it just isn't and it's not even just about leading other people it's how you show up.
and be a leader in a business, even if you don't have a team, right?It's all the same thing.To read a room, you have to be able to understand different people's styles and different people's motivations.
Just to get a business case signed off, even if you don't have your own team, the politics, soft politics of work and life is as real in a marketing team as it is anywhere else.
Absolutely.And I want to talk about, I mean, you know, we all sort of learn, or you'd like to think most of us learn from our, you know, challenges, perhaps, that we've overcome.
Are there any sort of specific challenges that you remember back in your career that you were able to sort of navigate around that, you know, real learning curves, like that really sort of helped to sort of almost, you know,
navigate and get to where you are now?Anything that sticks out?
There's probably two aspects.One of them I've mentioned already, which is around that commerciality.I started out and realized that actually, you can't just do the thing, you need to measure the impact of the thing.
I, you know, I'd never done marketing training at that point.I didn't know where to begin.And I was terrified of that.And you just have to bite the bullet and you have to just
go deep and say that you don't know the answer and get someone to help you.And I've been lucky throughout my career to be surrounded by incredible analysts who can explain numbers and maps and statistics in a way that a lay person can understand.
But I've worked really, really hard at that.I've worked really, really hard at that.And that sort of commitment to numbers and commerciality has really been a game changer for me.And as soon as I recognized that need, It was, it was transformational.
And then I think that, I think that the softer side of that is that, you know, not knowing things, um, and not having a marketing sort of foundation, you know, from a degree perspective, um, I had, I just really struggled with self-confidence and I ended up working harder than anyone else because I felt like I couldn't make mistakes and
be seen to be weak or not able to achieve.And actually, when I look back now, the best learning that I've ever had is when I've made a mistake.
And actually, when you get really comfortable really early with making mistakes and mistakes being OK, again, also transformational.
But you need to be in a business, and you need to be in a team, and you need to have a leader who actually is comfortable with you making mistakes.And that isn't always the case either, right?
I, I really like to create an environment where it's okay to make mistakes.Everyone learns from them, including myself.Yeah.And so yeah, for me, it's, it's confidence and commerciality.Those were the two major challenges for me individually.
I've, I've, you know, I still have imposter syndrome. you know, I still had that sinking feeling just before we switched on the camera, like, oh my God, I'm putting myself out there.And I think, you know, I think most people do that.
And I think most women do that.And again, I think, you know, confidence is something that you have to keep working at throughout your career.
Yeah, absolutely.A hundred percent agree.Yeah.And you weren't the only one.Off we go and we're going live.I want to talk about, I guess more so, I think emerging trends, when we look at, you know, in the market, I think, you know, there's a lot
obviously, we talk around, you know, AI, that's, you know, something that everyone's across at the moment.
But, you know, if we were really speaking to, say, you know, marketing, I don't know, coordinators or specialists that are really wanting to develop their skills in leadership, and as I said, one day, hopefully, maybe even get to your spot, is there any sort of advice that you'd say, you know what, really start focusing on X, Y and Z?
Or, you know, start to really up the ante across this, this and this?Because in the next 5, 10 years, it's going to be everywhere.
Look, you've talked about AI.Automation seems to have always been a conversation, as long as I can remember.I think there are critical things, and I think they're going to fundamentally shift and change. not what we do, but how we do it.
And I think they're going to create amazing efficiency for us as marketers and across businesses.What I would say, though, and I see it all the time, don't forget to go back to the basics of how marketing works.Trends are trends.
Channels are channels.They're the tactics that you can use.They're the tools that you can use.But if you don't understand the core principles of how marketing works, you have a strategy.You know your audience.You position your product.
use tactics to go to market, forget about it.You're not going to be successful.It's really easy to get sidetracked.And this is why I get really upset when people say, no, I'm just going to be a digital marketer.I'm just going to do that thing.
I'm only ever going to concentrate on paid search.I'm only ever going to do TV advertising.You need to understand how the whole ecosystem works and the role that each of those things plays.And there will always be
new and exciting aspects in each of those channels or areas of marketing but you have to understand strategically how marketing works because that, that sort of almost psychological lens on things is how you're successful.
And I, I get super frustrated when people just go straight to the tactic or the solution at the end without having thought about or done the work up front.
I've done a, you know, I've done a decent amount of work with my team over the last few years to get people trained in that sort of basic understanding.
I think core principles of marketing and we start there and it's painful right because hard work you have to take the time I have to think and you have to plan and you know the business I'm in at the moment it's a really fast paced business we have scaled incredibly quickly over the last years and so there isn't always a lot of time we want action we want movement we're opening new locations every three weeks
To take the time feels like a luxury, but if you don't take the time, the results aren't going to be as strong.And I'm constantly trying to pull myself and the team back to, OK, have we thought about it?Have we written a proper brief?
Do we actually understand the challenge that we're trying to solve?And do we know who we're solving it for?And do we know what it is that we're going to offer them as the solution to the problem that we're trying to solve?And then we go.
build it back and build it back.And that is frustrating.I know often my team are like, oh my God, here she goes again.But I think it makes for better marketers.And it also, I think, shifts the perception of marketers in a business as well.
I would say I have changed the perceptions of a number of CFOs on how marketing can actually influence and impact the business way beyond their expectation because I do believe in that strategic planning aspect.
And I do believe in, you know, targeting and positioning into campaign.And it's, it's allowed me to be able to prove the impact of marketing and then get support for things that CFOs might not necessarily
want to support a market or on or historically have done.
So yeah, that's, that's the thing, you know, of course, stay up to date with, you know, what's new and interesting, but you know, I rely really heavily on key partners and, and agencies to help me
keep up to date with things as well, because they've got more resources, and they've often got more time.And we kind of use those resources really as much as we can to make sure that our finger is still on the pulse.
But I always keep bringing it back to basics every single time.And I think, I hope, that I've got a team of 25 marketers here who understand the core principles and know how to operate out from that.
Yeah, brilliant, brilliant.And I think you really hit the nail on the head there, because, you know, nowadays, and I've had a few conversations with leaders around this, that it's really easy.
We all kind of call it the magpie syndrome, where it's like, a new shiny tool over here.Great.You know, oh, we've got to spend what?Oh, that's fine.It'll be really worth it.And I see this so, happens so often.
where businesses spend hundreds of thousands of dollars with, say, new CRM technology or, I don't know, AI tools, and then it's kind of like we've got the keys to the Ferrari, but we don't quite know how to drive it.
We're always happy to be a follower rather than a leader in these things.Let someone else go and make the mistakes, first of all.
Usually, you know, in businesses that have much deeper pockets, you know, we, you know, we're very agile and we're very frugal. And we have a pretty startup mentality, even though we have scaled so significantly.
And so we'll hold back and wait for a minute and just say, what else?Who else is?And then our partners can generally come to us and say, hey, this has been in the market for a little while now.X, Y, and Z have done this.It worked in this way.
It didn't work in that way.We think it could work this way for you.It gives me a sense of comfort.And maybe that's a little bit boring.Maybe that's not incredibly innovative.
from my perspective, but yeah, and maybe it would be different if I worked in a, in a much bigger, you know, scale organization, and I had the, I had the, the resources.But right now, that's, I think, a safer way for us to operate.
Yeah, yeah.I think, Eddie, I'm curious to get your opinion on this, because I get, you know, a multitude of different answers when I ask this question.
But in your view, in your humble opinion, is there any sort of, you know, real common traits or characteristics that you say, that you would say shape and make a really solid, awesome CMO?
I think the best CMOs, and I've probably banged on about it too much in the course of this conversation, are great leaders.You know, your role as CMO is to do an epic job of delivering
you know, against the marketing functions goals for your business, but it's also to deliver the next generation of great marketers in your business going forward.So I think they have to be passionate and committed leaders.
I think successful CMOs, commercial, commercially minded, pragmatic, I think you have to accept that you're going to spend most of your life being an educator of people who aren't marketers about how marketing works.
Because everyone is an armchair marketer and everyone has an opinion.So the role of constantly having to explain what your role is and how you do it and how it works. So patience is a virtue that I think most marketers and CMOs will say is critical.
And I think having a deep sense of comfort with failure and making mistakes because you can have a strategy that works for you to the same group of consumers in business A and you bring it across to business B and it fails miserably and you can't figure out why the hell that didn't work and you start again.
So I think you have to be really comfortable with failure and being ready to, you know, dust yourself off and get up again.And I think, you know, just, I think there are lots of misconceptions about what marketing is, what a sales role should be.
And so I think you just have to be quite thick skinned as well.But I think that, to be honest, I think when you get into any executive or senior position, all of those traits are probably the same and true.
But I think in order to sustain as a really, you know, successful senior marketer, you just have to know how marketing works.And, you know, I've definitely seen a few examples where that hasn't been the case and you just don't last.
And, you know, we all know the stats about how long CMOs last in a row, whether they're successful or not.I'm just at the tip over into sort of three and a half years.So I think I've done okay so far. You're doing all right.You're doing all right.
But yeah, I think, I think patience and resilience and a passion, a passion for leadership are probably the most critical things, at least the people that have inspired me and who I still look to for advice in my own sort of day-to-day work.
Those are the, those are the key things that they exhibit.
Yep.Love that.Brilliant.I want to talk a little bit more about personal branding because it's interesting.
Like when I have these sort of conversations, I guess, with when a marketing directors, you know, they sometimes say, Oh, you know, the thing is, you know, yeah, okay.I work for a really great brand, but I'm just not that networker.
Like I go into a room and I don't know where to start.And, you know, you know, I never really get, you know, asked to become a judge or a panelist or present. But then you've got some that naturally just find that stuff really easy.
They're quite happy to, you know, do all that kind of stuff.Is that something that you've had to work at yourself as you've, you know, progressed through your career?
Yeah, I'm naturally pretty introverted.I don't love walking into a room full of people that I don't know.So I used to find networking really, really difficult.But the reality of the situation is it doesn't matter how good you are at your job.
And I talk about this internally or externally to an organization.Unless you're raising your own profile and sort of blowing your own trumpet, it can just exist in a vacuum.
And lots of people, marketers, non-marketers, are really uncomfortable with that.And I have a team of wonderfully empathetic, gorgeous humans who are absolutely diabolical at raising their own profile.And it is the constant message for me.
And it's because I had that message drummed into me.No one is going to create your career for you.If you're super lucky, you might just breeze through and it all just happens for you naturally.But most people need to
understand what the next step is for them.And they need to work out what their gaps are.
And then they need to think about the different people in their network, or the different courses, or the different things that they can do to get them to the next level.And networking is super important.
I mentioned right at the start, when you build deep relationships with people, and they can become people who will sponsor or recommend you in the future, that is how the world works.It's not what everyone wants to hear.
It doesn't seem fair and equitable. But what I would say more than anything else is just work hard.You're not going to get anywhere by just being average.You're not going to get anywhere by sitting back and waiting for things to happen to you.
Work hard, be the best that you can be, and tell people how good you are. It doesn't have to sound conceited, it doesn't have to sound over the top, but it's just a reminder of, I've done this.
The other thing that I said to the younger people in my team as well is, 25 years is a long time.You forget some of the things that you've done.Write it down, keep a list. Because you forget.
And people tend not to do that until they go to write their next resume.And by then it's too late, everything's sort of disappeared.Write it down.
When you've had a really successful campaign, or you've been given a really great piece of feedback, just have a document somewhere that you just keep firing all of that stuff into, so it makes it easier.
And then, look, I think if you have the time and the inclination, I do think LinkedIn can be really useful as a tool.I am definitely not as consistent with that as I should be.
And it's on my list for this year to try it better and to be more consistent and think about the kind of messages that I want to share.
And actually, in just thinking about this conversation today, it kind of twigged a few things that would be useful for me to talk about and share. But you have to work on it and you can do it even if you're shy.Just be yourself.
When you walk into those rooms, most people in there are going to feel uncomfortable.You've just got to take a breath, find someone who looks approachable and just start a conversation. Give them a compliment, that always works.
Love your dress, great glasses, you know, just start there.And, you know, it all becomes more comfortable.
But I think just go into those events, in any case, whether it's conferences or networking events, even if you don't really have a lot of conversations, just to be in the room and get yourself noticed.But more than anything, you know,
Start internally in your own job because the frustration for most young marketers is that they don't move within their own company.
You have to start raising your profile and networking even in the job that you're in, in order to get to the next step in your own business.So yeah, just keep writing a diary and keep telling people the great successes that you've had.
And if you're not comfortable talking about yourself, you know, most marketers have a small team.Talk about your team. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.I love it.So yeah, that's for me, step number one, because no one else is going to do that for you.
Amazing.Love it.Love it.What advice, and just kind of on that, it kind of dovetails quite nicely to my next question.
When you sort of look back at, I guess, your career and, you know, you've, you've come a long way, but what advice would you perhaps give your 28 year old self?
Like, you know, when you think about, you know, 28 year old Una and knowing what you now know, Is there anything that really sort of stands out?
I think just make the courageous decisions.When I reflect back on how I've gotten here, it's because even though I was terrified most of the time, I made the hard decision anyway.And I made that decision to move around different industries.
People told me I was crazy.You know, once you're in financial services, stay there.Once you're in telco, stay there.Once you're in this. And, you know, I get bored really easily.You know, I don't get bored of marketing.I love the, I love marketing.
I love how it works, but I get really bored in the industry.And so don't, don't listen to, to shallow advice that there's no proof point for.If you think that's the next best step for you, do it.
And, and, you know, the courage then to not just try different industries, but to, to do the international thing. it, it actually fundamentally shifts your self-confidence.
Because as we talked about, you know, you land somewhere, you don't really know that many people, you really, it's sink or swim.And that does something to you.
And once you've gotten over the fear, once you've started to do it, it does something to you.I just feel like it transforms my trajectory, and it transforms my self-confidence.And I would
I highly, highly recommend that to any young marketer because I'm now lucky in the situation in my current role where when I joined the business, we were in Australia and New Zealand and we just started to own and operate out of the USA.
You're already prepared for the fact that in different countries people behave, think, act differently and it prepares you for that as well.But the confidence for me is the core thing.You've got to be confident.
Yeah, yeah.And I agree.I mean, you know, obviously being from the UK originally, I remember you know, promising the world to a global business, and then at 28, getting to Melbourne, going, OK, I promise I'm going to launch a business now, off I go.
And, you know, on my own, again, it's, you know, the bridge you get with that, though, it makes a huge difference.
Yeah.And I think the last part of it then is just follow your heart, too.When you, when you've made, when you've made a mistake, and you know it's not the right place for you, you It's okay to say what was mistakenly.
I've seen so many people live under that premise that you have to give it at least two years.
If it's not right for you and you know that it's not aligning to your personal values, get the hell out because you will not be happy and you will not succeed.Move on.
Yeah, I think that's really wise advice.
Is there any, I want to understand, like, is there any resources or books or, you know, other, I guess, thought leaders or CMOs that you've personally, you know, aspired to be or, you know, been inspired by, I should say, that you would recommend others to follow or books to read or?
Yeah, look, probably not individuals.I think there's, there's lots of great CMOs globally.And I think LinkedIn is a really great way to tap into, you know, their minds and how they do things.
The one thing for me, and I know, he's, he's not always everyone's cup of tea, but I am an absolute rit tonight.And I think it's been transformational for me and my team to do his mini-MBA courses. Yeah.
And I think, you know, regardless of whether you enjoy his humor, I think he makes learning really, really easy and straightforward for people who don't find learning that maybe potentially that easy.
But actually, more importantly, it's all the resources and the reading that he provides and recommends throughout those two courses.
that are the kinds of things that you can keep going back to, you know, the Field and Burnett and, you know, the brand, the distinctiveness and distinctive asset stuff from Jenner, Denny, Ronge, Newark.
So I think there's, there's, there's lots of resources and aspects of those two courses.And, you know, I think they're really reasonably priced as well.So, and I just think, and I actually just think they give a team a solid foundation.
in the basic principles and tools of marketing that then we'll go forth and build on.So that's, that's, that's what I've been doing with, with, with my team.And we've seen really great results.
And, you know, it's, it's just a really strong grounding in the basic principles to start.
Yeah, brilliant.I've heard really good things as well.And just finally, before we wrap up, I just want to ask, let's talk about legacy and impact.So I want to just sort of touch on that.
I mean, I know you've got many more years ahead, certainly to go.But What would you like, I guess, how would you want to be remembered as a CMO?
Is there anything that you know, is really important to you where you think I just really want my team to, you know, always remember me as this or anything that you value?
Yeah, look, I think I think I think really early on when I, when I started to hear on marketing, you know, it's just the colouring department, it doesn't really matter.It felt like a really, it was really personal, temptuous thing for me to hear.
And I want to, I want to be known as a marketer who was able to, without doubt, prove the commercial impact of marketing on a business.And that's really, really important to me.
And I know that that's not the be all and end all of marketing, but I think it's fundamental to be able to prove the impact of the work commercially, to be able to be given the keys to the kingdom of all the things that you want to do beyond that.
So I think being commercial, and I think, look, More than the marketing, I want to be able to walk away knowing that I've left behind other young marketers who actually understand marketing and can do a really good job.
And that they don't get caught up in fads and trends unnecessarily.They operate under common core principles, and they do an excellent job.If I don't do anything else, then I'm happy to do that.And look,
you know, I'm, you know, I'm deep down a good girl who likes to do good hard work.
And, you know, just knowing, you know, I've been, so far, I think if you asked anyone who I've worked for in the past, they'll say, I gave it everything, and I did my best.And hopefully, that continues throughout.
Because that's really all you can ask of anyone at the end of the day is to give it their best shot and do all that they can.And I think that I've done that.And I think
If you can walk away from most roles and most careers saying that you've done that, then I think that's pretty good.
Oh, absolutely.Absolutely.And I mean, look, I think no career ever, you're never going to, you know, go through every role and go, that was perfect.There's always going to be learnings.
But at the end of the day, you know, as you said, you walk away from that, you look back and go, yep, the team are happy.We grew.Brilliant.
Yeah, that's all it needs.
Exactly.Well, Una, it's been an absolute pleasure.Thank you so much.
I've really, really enjoyed it.I feel like the time's just absolutely flown by.So thank you so much.I really enjoyed it.
Loved it.Thanks so much for the opportunity, Lucy.
Remember the road to CMO isn't always linear, it's filled with challenges, decisions and moments of transformation.
Whether you're charting your course or navigating a career shift, the experiences wisdom shared today as with our guests is invaluable.
Thank you for joining us, keep dreaming big, keep pushing boundaries and remember that your journey towards becoming a CMO is as much about the destination as it is about the growth you experience along the way.
Until next time, continue to innovate, evolve and carve out your path to CMO.
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