I met my best friend Anne in 1985.
Then the Babysitter's Club kept her friendship alive.Then Emily was born in 1988 and she said, Thanks Aunt Esme, these books are great.Now we're all grown up and we're living our dreams.As a writer and a scholar and an expert on teens.
And we're gonna start again from the very first book because we're stuck.
Welcome to Stuck in Stony Brook, a podcast about the Babysitters Club.Today we're discussing book 81, Christy and Mr. Mom.
What do you think about this title?That was a pregnant pause.Well, I had to clear my throat, so I needed myself.
Yeah, it's obviously playing on the movie, right?Michael Keaton?Michael Keaton?
Okay, sorry.That's a big Michael Keaton.
Who isn't?Whomst amongst us is not. You know what?I have a confession.I've never seen that.You've never seen Mr. Mom?You should watch it.I've not.
I don't know if I've seen it either, actually.Really?
It's so good.It's really good.
Should that be our next hot take?
Yeah.It's a good movie.Mom hot take.We put the movie on when Andrew was probably around.My nephew, Andrew, was probably seven or eight, and he was captivated by the movie.That's amazing.
We had a break for dinner, and then he was like, we have to finish this. Yeah, he was like really into it.
It's his favorite.Is there a chance that that has come up on this podcast before in a different context?Because I feel like I heard that story.I think so.
I think we've talked about the movie Mr. Mom.
Like in the context of men doing chores or something?Yeah, I think so.Yeah, so interesting.That makes sense.Shall we get into our one-sentence summaries?Sure.Okay.
I wrote, Watson has a heart attack and then everyone has some feelings about reproductive labor and then happily ever after.
That's a nice, that follows the arc nicely.That's more inclusive than your one-sentence summaries often are.I did more of an Emily one-sentence summary.Well, no, because usually you, you focus on like a pithy part.
Well, mine was more like you're usually like traded places, I think, because mine is nanny and Mrs. Marshall have a petty contest.
Yes.Yeah.There is a lot of pettiness.Yeah.That's the best part of the book.
My opinion.Anne's here for the petty.
As Emma Goldman would say, pettiness separates, breadth unites.That's deep.
No, it's just one phrase from an essay.
It's a Wayne's World reference.It was a Wayne's World reference.My one sense of the summary is, why is the Bremington Musicians referenced like 20 times in this book?Just over and over again.They say it so many times.They say it so many times.
It's the new Mary Poppins.Yeah.And I know that's not a summary, but it's very strange.
Luckily, Emily did a good summary, so she did the heavy lifting for us. Yeah, I don't know about this book.I had high hopes for it, I think, and it didn't super deliver.
Because it was a Christie book?
Yeah, and it deals with a serious thing, and oftentimes they do that well in the BSC, but I was also excited for some stay-at-home dad hijinks, and I think it was just okay.And there was a lot of children chaos in this book.
like both in the babysitting chapters and at the Thomas house.And it was like, there was just a lot of chaos.
Yeah.Yeah.I don't know.I feel like Watson's heart, like mild heart attack.It was a mild heart attack.I was like, could it?And it was just like the stereotypical, like shoveling snow or whatever.And then it's like my heart.
I feel like there could have been something better for him to stay at home.
Interesting.Well, we'll talk about that in my corner.
rather than like a health ailment.
Right.Just like having him just want to be at home more, realize that he has enough money and that his children won't be young forever.Yeah.
It's like he has to face death before he even considers that.Before he's like, oh.
Yeah.We'll talk about that a lot in my corner.Wait, you guys, we should probably back up and tell you about the members of this podcast.I'm Esme Schaller, an adolescent psychologist.I'm kind of bossy, but I have a big heart.
I'm Annie Chikawa, a freelance writer.I'm a mischievous pragmatist with a sweet tooth.
And I'm Emily Crandall, a feminist scholar.I'm a total individual and I like health food.Nope.If you want to learn more about us and how we knew each other, check out our prologue episode.Also, rate and review us.
It really helps people find the podcast.And if you have any questions, comments, or commentary about anything BSC related, drop us a line at stuckinstoneybrook at gmail.com.
And you can also support us on Patreon at patreon.com slash stuckinstoneybrook.
Fabulous.And our next patron hot take will clearly be Mr. Mom, starring Michael Keaton.So run on over there.
Also, I feel like I need to refresh our podcast plug copy.
Oh, yeah?You think it needs a makeover?
Yeah.It's been 130 episodes of the same, and I feel like it could use a little... I don't know, but people might be upset.
It might be like when they do an update on the iPhone and people don't know where things are and they get stressed out about it.
A lot of people are creatures of habit, you know?
well i could just change you know it could be like maybe i'll change one word and then we'll see someone guesses who notices they get a prize oh people will notice yeah people will notice okay what kind of prize the first person to tell us what word is different gets a prize yeah okay yeah there's probably some sort of food uh fruit leather yeah yeah i can make some origami for them
Oh my God, she's not gonna do it.
I can make origami.Wow.Right now.
Yes, but then can you put it in an envelope and address it and put a stamp on it and put it in the mail?
Yeah, I can do that.Yeah.Okay.Paper, two-foldy paper things, I can handle that.
I can, I mean, I mail things all the time.I mail my quarterly taxes on time.
Yeah, but there's a consequence for that.There is. All right, what happens in this book, Anne?
We already talked a little bit about it, but... Watson has a mild heart attack, which leads him to... Well, he doesn't quit.
He's just like, I'm going to work from home and be part-time and kind of step down from CEO duties and just make big decisions and let the VP handle the day-to-day stuff in the office.
And then basically, like, Nanny gets jealous, because he takes over her household duties.And then she moves out.
She moves out in like a day and a half.And then space.
Yeah, I feel like actually that should be the name of the book.
Christy and Nanny's temper tantrum.
Yeah.Yeah, that seemed like the bigger plot to me for some reason.
Anyway, but everyone misses her.And then they kind of ask her to come back.So she does.And I guess the babysitting B plot is they have this client who just is like, Hey, you're gonna take care of my kids.
And also like these 10 other kids I didn't tell you about. And then the babysitters are like, Oh, that's I don't know, this is a lot for one babysitter.And then they end up having other someone else come over to help them.
And then when they say, we need to pay for two babysitters.I mean, this whole beef lot's very like, dumb in general.Anyway, and then they're like, you have to pay both of us.And the woman's like, No, I'm not going to do that.
And then they realize it's their fault, because they've never actually advertised that for more than four children, they need two babysitters.
But they somehow link to the main plot.I forget how it was.Oh, about Nanny.
Yeah, I think it was just like the overwhelm of lots of kids and like how hard it is to project manage a life when there are a lot of kids around, whether it's for an afternoon of babysitting or for life.
Yeah.Yeah.The message is like having a lot of kids at once is hard and no one can do it.
Like, I don't know.Takes many hands, make light work.Yeah, I think that this was a much more closely related B-plot than many of them that we've had recently.
You asked it like that was a stretch, but I feel like it was not a deep stretch on this one.I just feel like it was boring.Where sometimes I'm like, what does that have to do with anything?
What does black Jesse being Santa have to do with the weddings?
But that's more interesting.
Yeah, I did also feel like usually when there's a, the babysitters have to have a talk with the parents, but it's a little more after school special on the nose.And this just seemed like obviously Mrs. Marshall was in the wrong.
Like who would pay a 13 year old to watch their two kids?And 11 year olds.And 11 year olds.Yeah.And then at- Children, four of whom are under four.Right.And then at the last minute to be like, what do you mean you won't do this?
Like it just, that seemed implausible to me, not just boring.
Yeah.Although I did like, because so often when it's after school, especially, the girls are just so competent in how they talk to adults.
So I kind of liked that their initial solution was just to have Claudia show up as the extra sitter, and then for Stacey to refuse to stay if Claudia wasn't always paid so that Mrs. Marshall got screwed out of her jazzercise class.
I kind of liked that was their initial solution, and then it took them a while to be like, oh, maybe she didn't know, and maybe we should have talked to her.Maybe she would have altered in advance.
find it implausible that Mrs. Marshall would have been so upset and skipped her jazzercise class instead of being like, Oh yeah, I guess it is a little weird to ask someone to babysit five kids when they think they're showing up for two.Yeah.
I just, yeah, I didn't buy it.Fair enough.
Well, I did a bunch of research about heart attacks and stress.So yeah, about our cultural ideas about heart attacks, because this plot is a familiar one, right?The hardworking executive, the CEO of Sunbeam Toaster Ovens.
We know it's Unity Insurance in canon, you guys, but we're sticking to our story.
Is working too hard, not eating well, not realizing that he's middle-aged and should have his teenage stepsons shoveling the walk instead of him and or needs to be exercising more.And then the heart attack gives him new life perspective.
And this is, you know, it's a plot in a lot of movies.It's a plot in, you know, it happens in a, Yeah, that alternate reality in Friends where Phoebe's an executive and she has a heart attack.She's basically Watson in this scenario.
And so I wanted to know if there's actually good data on that and if that's a real thing.Because obviously, heart attacks are caused by a multitude of factors, right?So diet and exercise and genetics and stress is one of them.
But it tends to be the one we focus on as a culture, I think, partly because I think we like people
There's probably some psychology there that this is not database at all, but that, you know, seeing someone who's really high achieving and working really hard get put in their place is like satisfying as a human.
Emily's nodding kind of emphatically.Well, it's like humbling, right?Right.We like a humbling story.
So I think there's part of that.But I wanted to know, is this actually a thing?And so I'm really bummed because one of the articles that I found is actually a dissertation.And usually I don't look at dissertations.I only look at peer-reviewed stuff.
But the title of it was so exact to what this is about that I was really interested to just read you guys the title.So this is by
Karen Sue Yazgur from 1999, so just a little bit after this book was published, and it's Psychological Functioning and Significant Lifestyle Readjustment Following the Experience of a Heart Attack in Executive Midlife Professional Males.
Sorry, what was this researcher's name?Karen Yazgur.I'm curious why she cares about midlife executives who are male.
Yeah.It's an industrial organizational psychology study.So I can't read the whole study because it's a dissertation.I would have to request it from her university.But she looked at men between 40 and 60, 20 of whom had a heart attack.
and 20 of whom had a different kind of lifestyle readjustment and then 20 that had neither and looked at their like social readjustment rating and their inventory of stress and like differences in functioning between them.So I don't know.
What's a social readjustment rating?
So a social readjustment rating scale, it's like some inventory, some self-report that measures self-perceived change in an adult's ongoing life readjustment.So like getting back to normal?
Or having to like change everything you're eating or work less or do whatever it is. And what was really interesting is that also they used the Neo PI, which is the measure of the big five, the real big five.
And it made significant changes in two out of five people's personality dimensions.But I don't know what those are because it's a dissertation. But I just thought it was hilarious how spot on about Watson the title was from this 90s dissertation.
I'm like, did Karen read this book?
Maybe I found her LinkedIn.How do you spell her name?
Yeah.And she's a PhD.She lives in San Diego.So she graduated from Walden University. in 1998 with a PhD in Industrial and Organizational Psychology.Yeah.
I mean, that's what this is.This is an IO psych study.Yeah.That's hilarious.Well, anyway, that's her dissertation.In terms of data that I could actually look at, there was a study from 2002
looking at using network analysis, which is a way of compiling different subjects is not the right word, different concepts together to see how they sort of hang together, looking at beliefs about the causes of heart attacks.
And so it was just the extent to which people perceived eight specific agents as causes of heart attacks with
stress being one of them and the things that people, some people were in like a genes first group and some people were in a stress first group.Yeah, Emily.
Are the people being surveyed people who've had heart attacks or just like people?No, it's just people.It's just like random perceptions about what caused it, random people's perceptions about what caused a heart attack.Okay.Yes.
And there's like eating fatty foods, high cholesterol, type of work a person does, But the two things that people thought were the biggest contributors were genes and stress or worry.
So yeah, it's just like interesting looking at why we have these sort of cultural beliefs, because especially when the study came out in 2002, we don't know enough and I think we still don't know enough to say like X percent of a heart attack is caused by this, right?
But it's how we perceive it and what we're interested in from those different pieces of heart attack.
I also looked at a study of death anxiety from the 80s of people who had had heart attacks, looking at men and women in India and their measure of overall anxiety about death.
And it turns out female heart attack patients are more worried than male heart attack patients, and both of them are more worried about death than people who've never had a heart attack.Shocking.
And lastly, I had a paper that the head author of is someone named Glenn Affleck, so not to be confused with Ben Affleck or Jen Affleck of The Real Lives of Mormon Wives.
And this article is about causal attribution, perceived benefits, and morbidity after a heart attack. This is from the University of Connecticut School of Medicine, actually, also from the late 80s.So this is 1987.
So this study could have directly affected this book, because Anna Martin tends to talk to experts about things.So this could have been data that she was indirectly looking at.And this followed people who had had a heart attack.
eight years post-attack.So it had a group of over 200 heart attack patients.And then they looked at whether or not they thought that they benefited from having the heart attack.Did it help them in some way?
And the people for whom, about 59% of people who had heart attacks believed that. at eight years follow-ups, that it helped them in some way that there was a benefit.
And a lot of the benefits that people mentioned are things that Watson is saying in here.So change in philosophy of life or values or religious views, that was one category.
And only about 11% of people endorsed that seven weeks following the heart attack, but a whole quarter of the sample endorsed that eight years following the heart attack.
So as they're sort of, we've talked about building narratives here, as they're kind of thinking about the impact it had on their lives. over time that increases.
Change in family life and family relationships, insight into need for avoiding stress and conflict, change in mode of life to increase enjoyment, and then learn value of health behavior and increase longevity were all different ways that people felt it had benefited them to have a heart attack.
And I believe that the people who felt it... Increase in longevity is interesting.Mm-hmm.Because I think that the idea being the heart attack gives them a wake-up call and then they exercise more and they eat better and they take care of themselves.
Whereas if they didn't have the heart attack, they would have continued with ineffective habits.
Well, I think it's interesting to think about a heart attack as like a prolonging of death.Mm-hmm.Yeah.Because it's also something that you can die from.
Yeah. Yeah.Yeah.But people who didn't endorse benefits were more likely to have a second attack and were more likely to die from a heart attack in the follow-up period than people who did endorse benefits.
And people who attributed their initial attack to stress also had greater morbidity, so greater more attacks and more likely to die from it. So it's just interesting.And I couldn't find anything.This is an old study.This is 1987.
I couldn't find anything else that was longitudinal that had follow-ups of people's emotional and psychological impact of heart attack, which is really what I'm interested in and I think what this book is interested in.
The other thing I found an article about, just a small article, because I was thinking about Phoebe Buffay and I was thinking about other times that this kind of trope shows up in movies and TV.
And this is an article from the Minneapolis Heart Institute about what the media, what fictional media gets wrong about heart attacks.
And so they basically just said, it's always a white man and women have heart attacks and people of color have heart attacks. And that it's super dramatic, so it's always clutching the chest and collapsing.And it's not like that a lot of the time.
And especially in women listeners, apparently you're more likely to feel queasy and unusually tired.So those are symptoms for women to look for, for potential heart attack.Because real life is not as theatrical.
So I just thought it was interesting to think about the different pieces that went into this portrayal of Watson's heart attack and how it kind of makes him realign things.And I agree with you, Anne.
I sort of wished that he just wanted to do this because you don't need to have more money when you are the CEO and you also have family money.Like maybe you just want to enjoy your blended family and be around for your kids' childhoods.
Yeah, it's interesting because it's like so like when a woman, if a woman has a heart attack, does she have the opposite reaction where she's like, I'm doing too much?Yeah.Like I need to relax.Like I need to get away from my family.
Opposite reaction in terms of like, turning down domestic life and going to work more.
Or just like, she's doing so much labor, both, you know, with her family and also for herself and her job that she's like, she thinks about it differently.Yeah.You know?
Yeah.And I did not, well, A, I didn't look for that study specifically because it was about Watson's heart attack, but B, I am very interested in that.
Yeah.Or like, would it make a woman like resentful towards their partner?Like, sorry, this is a very dark turn, but.
I mean, I think it's Elizabeth's perspective, I think, is very underexplored in this book, actually.Just something that I had, I don't know, I hadn't had, like, many developed thoughts about.
But one of the things that makes them all fall apart initially is that Elizabeth's at the hospital all the time.And so even Nanny, who, like, ends up having the conflict with Watson, is there and, like, present and doing stuff.
And it's still super hard to manage.And there's this, like, whoa, I can't believe mom does this.But, like, that's sort of it. It's not really explored.I don't know.Yeah.
But I think that that's realistic, right?Because a 13-year-old doesn't spend that much time thinking about that.I think Christy actually remarks on it and thinks about it more than an average 13-year-old, especially in 1995.
But yeah, I would love to read this whole book from Elizabeth's perspective. I don't need the Marshall jobs.Let's just hear how she's doing.She just married this guy, what is it, six months ago?
Because we're in perpetual eighth grade, so they haven't been married very long.
And they just adopted a new little girl together, and now he's going to pass out and have a heart attack, and she's got his kids and her kids and their child, and yeah, it's a lot.
So the other thing I was really interested in was Nanny's pettiness and her not speaking directly to this not feeling needed once Watson takes over and is doing his whole Mr. Mom thing.And it made me wonder about Nanny's cultural background.
We know she's white, but is she from a super, super WASPy family where you just don't communicate directly and you don't say about those things.You know, if Nanny's a grandma in the 90s, then she's at least like my mom, Emily's grandma's age.
She was probably born in the 30s.And she does not communicate directly because she doesn't communicate directly.And that's how she was taught.
We joke a lot about where people just have to have conversations in Babysitter's Club books, but this was a little bit more believable to me.But what wasn't believable is that Watson and Elizabeth wouldn't be more direct.
and say, wait, no, please don't go.We still have a two-year-old, and one month at a time, we have a four-year-old and a six-year-old.
Also, are they that dense that they don't understand what's going on?
Right, because every eight-year-old reading this book is like, oh no, Nanny's jealous and doesn't feel needed.
But so I found it more interesting to think about what culturally led her to that place, as opposed to this is just everyone being dumb.
And maybe Nanny has been there for Elizabeth very instrumentally, and they've never really talked about feelings or about what's happening.And so Elizabeth might be able to do that with Christy or her kids, but doesn't know how to do it with Nanny.
Yeah, I mean, it's giving New England.
It's giving New England, right?
And I tried to look for, I was like, inaccurate expression, indirect communication, and New England, but I couldn't find it.Nice.
Yeah, I wonder why no one's conducted that study.
Yeah, but I thought that, you know, looking through that lens, it was pretty realistic if we weren't just like, what?Why is everybody shutting up?So.
Yeah. I like the part where it was like Watson brought pizza and she made pasta and she was like, well, you can't freeze pasta or something like that.I was like, oh, yeah.
Wait, can you not?I mean, it won't be as good, but you could also just put it in a normal Tupperware in the refrigerator and eat it the next day.
She was being so dramatic.
I'm a freak though.I like it cold.Yeah, that's good, too.
Yeah.As we always have.You always eat cold spaghetti.
Oh, yeah.Delish.Delish. So that's what I had.Those were the things.And then I just thought Mrs. Marshall was being really bitchy and weird.
Yeah.It was bizarre.We haven't had much interaction.Obviously Nina and Eleanor have been around since the very beginning, but I feel like we spend more time with Mrs. Newton and Dr. Johansson, right?
So she hasn't really been fleshed out as a character.So I didn't feel like it was a betrayal of previous Mrs. Marshall moments, but it was just weird.
Yeah. Yeah, I was also I know we'll get into this later, but like jazzercise is so funny.It's like, is she is she divorced?
No, there's just no Mr. Marshall.No, there is a Mr. Marshall, but he's probably at work until later.
OK, I was just thinking about like culturally the debate around like the role of jazzercise and sort of like women's empowerment.You know, she like. Oh, I'm striking out on my own.Fuck the male-centric corporate workout scene.
I'm going to get a new husband.Or she's just like, oh, I'm just trying new hobbies with my friends and I'm being inconsiderate to the 13-year-olds.I probably pay $10 to watch my children.
Yeah, if that.I think it's the second one.
If that.Interesting. All right, what you got, Em?I was thinking about the reveal of Watson's real job.He's the CEO of Unity Insurance.
And obviously, to some extent, to your point about the sort of cultural perceptions of what causes heart attacks, he's struggling with work-life balance, right?
And I was like curious to what degree there is discourse on like CEO work life balance, because as somebody who has studied and written about the sort of politics of work in Silicon Valley, I know that at the very least in Silicon Valley, there's the sort of opposite ethos.
This sort of like compulsion to do what you love and that your life is only meaningful if you like fully subsume yourself into the work.
So like Elon Musk very famously has said like so much stuff about the degree to which everything that we might consider life outside of work has suffered in his life and all for the pursuit of the success of the company, the vision of the dream, right?
But there is some kind of alternate discourse.And a lot of it actually comes from CEOs, at least in our current moment, who run companies that are tangentially or explicitly kind of about reproductive labor or care work.
So like I came across a couple interviews with like five CEOs who talk about how they strike work life balance and what their advice is.And it's always like, oh, we work 60 hours a week or more or whatever.
And it's like you finding time with your family. But the CEO of care.com is always cited on these lists.And it's like, OK, yeah, sure.You're the CEO of a company that provides people with babysitters.So I don't know.
How much time do you spend with your family, sir?I don't know. But there's obviously a sort of there's a cultural fixation with how much CEOs work and how much millionaires work, how much rich people work.Oh, yeah.
That I think parallels this sort of morbid obsession with rich people who get sick from ostensibly overworking themselves.Yes.
It's like, oh, if a CEO, if Elon Musk's works 80 hours a week, then me toiling away 80 hours a week at my minimum wage job is like worth it because eventually I could maybe be a
I'll be Elon Musk.Although I don't know who wants to be him now.
Hopefully nobody, but still.But the data on how many hours CEOs work is actually really hard to wade through.A lot of it relies on self-reporting in part because the pay structure for a billionaire is not salaried.
And most billionaires or CEOs or whatever make the majority of their money from stock options or stock awards or whatever, not actually the hours they work.
So it's a super incongruous equation to say that, oh, if I work as many hours a week as Elon Musk, I too can be a billionaire.One does not cause the other, right?
I was also trying to figure out how much money Watson would have been making as a CEO of an insurance company in the nineties.And it's kind of hard to find data on that.
And Anne just like woke up.She just got really interested.
How much?I found the Economic Policy Institute did a study in 2022 about the general skyrocketing of CEO pay.This is probably unsurprising, but like in since 1978, CEO pay has skyrocketed 1,460%. Which is just sort of bananas.Percents.Percent, yeah.
But there was this series of stats that I thought was really interesting.So using a measure or a ratio of CEO to typical worker compensation.
Oh yeah, I like that measure.
Yeah, in the 60s, it was 20 to 1.In 1989, it was 59 to 1.So this is like when Watson would have been a CEO, right?89, 94, whatever.By 2021, it is up to like 400 to 1.That's disgusting.
Yeah, which because of general kind of like leaps in resources of sort of like income that they're generating makes up that 1400 percent sort of increase, which is just bananas.So it's like bananas.It's really crazy.
A little bit of data I was able to sort of find is that, and this is like a little mixed, there's some data that suggests that in 1990, like an insurance CEO would have probably made around like $2 million, but by 99, it would have been up to like 10, 10 and a half, 11, which is kind of a big jump for that decade, eh?
And also that, what do you call it?That field?What's the word I'm looking for?Position? No, like insurance as opposed to some other, what's, I don't know.You follow me.Field.Field?Yeah, sure.Industry.That's what I was looking for.
Tough, tough over here.But there is some data that suggests that like recent compensation for CEOs in insurance like hover around like $125 to $250 million a year, which is like a significant leap from this like $1.8 to $10.I'm sorry, what?
They're making $125 million a year? I found some numbers that said that, but also every place I looked had slightly different numbers.So I'm sort of unclear.
I didn't have time to look at where those numbers are coming from and why they're different in different sites.But it does seem like there has been another over again kind of wild leap, particularly as it pertains to the insurance industry.
Meanwhile, they're not issuing policies to anybody in the state of California anymore because of fires.
Right.Well, I'm wondering how they're actually structuring options and things like that.
One of my favorite climate dystopian fiction novels is about this mathematician who goes to work in insurance and right on the precipice of a natural disaster and he starts basically selling risk to companies, betting against risk.
And then he becomes this crazy rich guy, but then all of a sudden Manhattan's underwater.So it's like, I don't know. I just think about insurance too, and especially in the United States, as actually being quite predatory and pernicious.
So we think about Watson as this super nice guy who's just trying to make a good living for his family.But how much money are you really making in 1990 and at what cost to what people?
Absolutely. Well, and the thing that we've learned before that Watson has old money, right?Like he's from an old Stony Brook family.
And this is, of course, not unusual that people that have generational wealth then go on to have significant leadership positions in places where they continue to make more wealth.But it's just really, it's...
Well, yeah, and I don't know if in the early 90s he would have already like if stock options would have been part of his compensation packet, but they certainly would be now.And if he had stayed in that job, he would now be disgustingly rich.
I mean, just like absolutely disgustingly rich.I don't know.Like, yeah.Humbled by the heart attack.Yeah.Like, sure, Watson, engage in some self-care, work life balance, but also fuck you, guy.
Get out of here.I feel like we need a Stuck in Stony Brook rich scale.It reminds me a little bit of the speed in Spaceballs where it's like, ludicrous speed, go.
We've got disgustingly rich, we've got mind-numbingly rich, we've got lunch- Get the fuck out of here, guy.Yeah, lunch-retchingly rich.Anyway, yeah.
Yeah, so that was sort of what I was preoccupied by.
Understandably.I had a question for you because I thought it was an interesting choice.And actually I liked it a lot that Watson was so competent.
Like eventually things fall apart at the seams after Nanny's gone because they do have a lot of kids and they have a lot of balls in the air, but his cooking is good.
He gets the kids dressed, he makes like some tiny mistakes, like one day he puts Emily's dress on backwards, but that's easy to do with a two-year-old, you know?
But I think a lot of other things in 1995, and I think it's part of Mr. Mom, too, like the plot of it would be his incompetence and the fact that he can't do these things.
And at one point he actually says, I'm the CEO of, I don't think he says a Fortune 500 company, but a major corporation.I think I can figure this out.
He has domestic competence in a way that I think cuts against the grain of the portrayal of most men, even now, but particularly in the 90s.And I'm just curious about Anna Martin's choice for that.
I thought it was very interesting and a little bit subversive.
Yeah, I mean, I do.I do think it places the the question that's up for debate or I don't know, for grabs or whatever, the like focus of the inquiry, not on to him as a father, as a man, but like him as a worker.Right.Like to what extent?
Like how does he balance the responsibilities of his family?And like that's his reckoning.Right.He comes home and everyone's holding hands on the porch and he's crying, looking at all of them.And he's like,
my family, this is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen.I'll never leave you.And so I think it's interesting that the book does not ask about his competence or interrogate his competence.
And I almost think it's like a more, I don't know, it's like a very sympathetic reading of Watson for sure.Yeah.
But I think it's also like that
The idea, you know, we have it well ingrained in our culture that if you are a man that succeeds at work, then you're like a fucking dumbass at home, you know, and you don't, you can't, you don't notice when you're out of bread and you don't know how to do the laundry or, and what becomes Watson's undoing is actually when he starts working more again.
Right?When he's only focused on homekeeping and reproductive labor, he's doing fine.And so it's a little bit of a parable about having it all, but I think it's also, I just, I really liked that she did that.
I think that there wasn't a, there weren't any, obviously, and I wouldn't expect to see from Anna Martin any jokes about him being a sissy or whatever, you know, other than the moniker Mr. Mom, which was in the culture at the time.
But I just, I, even from the cover, I thought there was going to be a little bit more hijinks of like, yeah.
Yeah.Yeah.I feel like as we talk about this, I find it, I find myself more and more annoyed by Watson.Say more, say more.Just like he, I think it's like, he just gets to do whatever he feels like doing at the time.Sure.
You know, and he's a rich white guy.And it's like, he just tells his entire company, like, I'm just gonna work from home now.Like, I'm not doing this stuff anymore.Talk to Mary.Poor Mary.It's like trying to get him on the phone for something.And you
You know what I mean?Like, did he give her a raise?Like, how did this transition work?
I know you had a little health scare, a mild heart attack, but at the same time, it's like, it seems very... But I got my MBA from Penn and I keep getting hung up on by a 13 year old.
He does sort of vaguely, there's one moment where he's like, oh, I'll just distribute some of my responsibilities to like the vice presidents.And it's like, okay.
I know, I was... What do you mean?Yeah, exactly.I was like, are you good at your job?What is happening here?Like, if you really want, I mean, it's famous, but if he really wanted to step down, that would have taken many months to figure out.
And yeah, I mean, unless he just like if he yes, of course, they're trying, they would have to make a transition plan.But if he, you know, if he quit, he quit, like, but yeah, he didn't quit, though.
Yeah. Which is even more annoying, kind of, because he still wants to be there to make the important decisions.Three hours a day.Yeah, three hours a day.Yeah, fuck this guy.
That really was so funny to me.I was like, I always say I wish I could work three hours a day.I know.
I would love to work three hours a day.Isn't that the ideal work schedule?
It would be amazing.It would be amazing.Yeah. So anyway, fuck Watson.He's so rich.I know.I'm glad you can cook a plain chicken breast with no skin and some steamed veggies.
He gets to do whatever he wants.
Yeah.It's true.It's true.And talk to us about Jazzercise.
Oh, Jazzercise.Well, before I get to Jazzercise, I did want to bring up this, like, Bremen Town musicians. Really?That David Michael's obsessed with.He's the rooster.So I was like, what is the Bremen Town Musician?
So I'm just going to read a quick little summary of... Wait, you don't remember hearing this story in elementary school?
No.No, we definitely... Mrs. Neal read it to us, but you weren't in Mrs. Neal's class in first grade.
I have no idea what this is.I thought it was something made up.
It's a folk tale.Okay, go ahead.No, no clue.A donkey, a donkey, dog, cat and rooster learn to learn that they are no longer wanted on their farms, and they run away together.
So they're like all washed up, you know, like the donkey, the donkey's owner doesn't want him anymore.The rooster is like, they're gonna eat me.And like, you know, they're all so big together, they decide to go to Bremen to become musicians.
And then they've come upon a cottage with four robbers inside.And then these animals make a lot of noise to scare the robbers away.And then they give up their travel plans and live in this house.
Yeah, the Bremerton musicians.
Yeah.But I just don't know why I got so much like exposure in this book. Is this Spongebob?
So are they like a traveling troupe?No, because- Or they're no longer?They're no longer.But they're still musicians?I don't know.So is the play the story of their like ostracism?
It's a brother's grim fairy tale, right?Like it's an old, old fairy tale.And then they just did a play of it.But don't they like stack too, right?That's the thing.They're in a big stack.
Yeah, there's a statue somewhere in Germany of these.In Bremen.In Bremen.They stack?
Yeah, like donkeys on the bottom, and then the dog, and then the cat, and then the rooster.You've never seen the stack of the little animals?
Never been to Brementown.
No, but there's like, if you Google Brementown musicians.
I don't want to Google it.Anne's telling me about it, and I'm reacting.Yeah.
There's like a zillion storybooks of it that show this particular, like, feminist tack.A zillion.
Yeah, I feel like Esme's gaslighting us a little bit.
Listeners, back me up.Everybody who listens to this podcast has heard about the Bremen Town Musicians.
Wow, except me?That's so rude.Well, that happens a lot, Emily.
I'm just gonna say.Okay, well, I'll move on to jazz for size.I feel like things are getting a little heated. right now.So got a cool things down.
So yeah, so we don't do that with jazzercise.
No, no.Okay.Yeah, this was also my favorite quote when she's like, I've got my jazzercise class tonight.That's my favorite quote of the book.And then afterwards, they're gonna go get coffee.Wow.Very cool.Okay.
So these are I just have some nuggets about jazzercise.You guys know anything about jazzercise besides obvious?
Marilyn Van Loben Salis was really into it, my high school boyfriend's mom.It was the 90s.She was like super into it.She had like a whole group and she was, I don't know if she was an instructor, but she was very devoted.
And yeah, I know that it was like, I think it started kind of grassroots, but that's all I know.
Okay.So I was supposed to make exercise fun.Yes.Well, yeah.Jazzercise.
Yeah.Yes.Okay.So a woman named Judy Shepard Missett created Jazzercise in Evanston, Illinois in 1916. And she herself was a serious dancer, like she studied dance.And she like studied dance at Northwestern.And then she began to teach dance class.
And she kind of noticed that a lot of the women, like some women would have their children there at the dance class, like sitting, you know, to the side, whatever.
And she noticed how like the kids were having focusing on the fun, while the adults were focusing on the technique. So that kind of gave the idea for a lot of she also recognized a lot of women were dancing for fitness, not to be good necessarily.
So she kind of wanted to turn women away from looking in the mirror at their at their technique, and just to more have fun.So she first called it jazz dance for fun and fitness, which is a jazzercise cashier, right?
Yeah, much cashier.Yeah, good.
Yeah.So the height of popularity for jazzercise was in the mid 80s. And it is a franchise business.And it was the second fastest growing franchise business in the country after Domino's in the mid 80s.So it was like really popular.
That's crazy.That's awesome.
To date Jazzercise as a whole has netted $2 billion in sales, and it has over 8000 franchises in 32 countries.Wow.Yeah.So there is like, you know, a feminist angle to this.
And, you know, I read this article in the Atlantic about it was the 50th anniversary of Jazzercise relatively recently.
So, you know, Judy was saying how the 1974 Equal Credit Opportunity Act was like really important because women could finally actually get loans to start businesses and become entrepreneurs.So that's like kind of what enabled a lot of women to
Open a franchise.And I guess it became a really big thing of like women to actually enter the workforce and to like leave their husbands, find like a better working work life balance for them and their families.
And I think like 90% of the franchise's owners began as students. So it was like, if you, it's kind of, I mean, and I think the story about Maryland and themselves, like Beaks is kind of an example of this.It's like, you know, like a community.
And I think it was really about just women getting together.And like, I think the angle was you shouldn't care about how good you are.And of course, people cared about how people wanted to be thin still.
And it was predominantly a suburban white woman thing to do.Yeah. But you know, it did pave the way just for SoulCycle, and Orange Theory Fitness, and all these other types of fitness classes.
So yeah, I mean, it's cool that she was able to just turn dancing into things. across the world, like Jazzercise in itself is just, it's like Mickey Mouse or like McDonald's, right?You just know what it is.
Interesting.You know, I know a lot of women who I grew up with who consciously like stayed at home to raise families and are very like religiously committed to the idea that as a woman, you have a responsibility to like be a mother and then like
women, trans women or not women, right?Like all these things.And a lot of them like have actually careers that I don't think they would call careers.They're all like exercise professionals.
So they like raise kids, but they also teach gym classes and they advertise their classes on Instagram.And it's like, it's interesting that that's an acceptable exception. Because you're right, right?
There's a subtle kind of promotion of an ideal type that's thin.But I feel like also the recent emphasis is on strength, which is actually not historically traditionally feminine.I don't know.
It's really interesting to me that it's still a persistent phenomena.Yeah, that is really interesting.
Yeah, totally.And then my one last little thing was rescue rangers. So I kind of wanted to do a little.I don't know if Emily's so familiar.No.OK, so Disney afternoon.Right.Got gummy bears.
That's OK.OK.She missed out.She missed out.She missed out on the afternoon.Yeah.But between.OK.Got gummy bears, ducktails, rescue rangers, tails.Oh, I know.Ducktails.Yeah, of course.But like who had the best theme song?
I mean, I know what you're going to say.
Tailsman was the one I liked best as a child.
I think that DuckTales is probably the best actual song.
But I like Rescue Rangers a lot, too.
They all have good theme songs, let's be honest.Gummy Bears is also good.
Are you guys going to sing the theme songs for me?
I don't know if I can do it.I can sing a couple.You can't do all of them?Yeah, well, Gummy Bears, Gummy Bears, bouncing here and there and everywhere. Okay.High adventure that's beyond compare.Ducktales.
Some time, some crime, goes slipping through the cracks, but these two gum shoes.I'm doing Rescue Rangers.That's what that is.These two gum shoes are picking up the slack.There's no case too big, no case too small.If you need help, just call.
Ch-ch-ch-chip and dale, Rescue Rangers.
Ch-ch-ch-chip and dale, when there's danger.
We could do this for a while.
Anyway, I would like to ask our listeners... Which one is best?
We'll throw up a poll.Okay.Yeah, that's a good idea.
They're all good.They're all really good.
Yeah.But you only sang two out of the four, so... I was like, woo-hoo!
Every day they're out there, sold in ducktales.
Danger out behind you.There's a stranger out to find you.What you do is grab on to some ducktales.
And then Talesman is more like, it has like this drum intro.
Yeah, it's like world music-y.Yeah, Pudimayo.It's Disney Pudimayo from the early 90s.
But at the beginning, it was like, no, at the end, it's like, spin it, let's begin it, burn, burn it, when you're in it, you can really get no minute when you spin it, spin it, spin it.Ho, ho, ho, tailspin.What the fuck?
That's something about Baloo as a pilot.
Yeah.Micah's dream tiki bar is the bar and tailspin. It is really good.It's really good.Okay, anyway, so Claudio's Candy.I think all I got was Malamar's.
Yeah, they have a Malamar sponsorship lately.I feel like this is the fourth or fifth Malamar mention in the last 10 books.
I feel like it's the most recently consistent candy.
I might have missed it, but I do not believe this book had either exotic or almond-shaped eyes. You know why?Because Claudia's just not in the book.That's not true.She books it when Mrs. Marshall gets mad.She leaves Stacy standing on the porch.
No, but I also noted that in the Christy, this is the first time I've seen like Christy credit, like a lot of people when they talk about Claudia's club duties are like, yeah, she just has the room and sometimes she gives us snacks.
And Christy like gives her credit as the club artist and says like, Claudia has designed everything we've ever given to people.And it's we really appreciate her talents.
in a way that people, like, usually people are kind of dismissive when they talk.They're like, well, people do call when it's not during meetings.So she picks up that slack.
But, like, Christy gave her some additional credit, which I appreciated, and then didn't say that her eyes were shaped like almonds.So maybe we're breaking free, but this is the first time, so we'll see.
We did get a bossy, a sophisticated, and too shy.Oh, and a sensitive.
Okay, you already know my favorite line.Wait, what was it again?I've got my jazzercise class tonight.
I think it's so good.It's really good.It's a good title for Mr. Mom, too.Wait, what was the one where, what's the misspeak that Claudia has when her mouth is full of malamars?Did anyone write that down?I forgot to write it down.No.
Now that we're talking about malamars.
It's like a from, from, from when she means to say like.
Oh, mind myth free?Yeah.Mind myth free for fine with me.
Yeah, I was like, that feels weird.
I had two that I really liked.One was, at one point, Christy refers to Watson as King of the Businessmen, which I think is just an amusing idea.I picture a little bit of a jungle society.
And then this isn't really good for a title because it's too long, but as things start to fall apart without Nanny there, Christy says, Watson, parentheses, the millionaire, didn't have enough change to give anybody their school lunch money.
which I thought was so 13.And I could hear the sarcasm in her voice, like, the millionaire doesn't have any cash at all.So I thought that was really good.
I think it's gotta be Jazzercise.
Yeah.Is it, I've got my Jazzercise class tonight, or I have my Jazzercise class tonight?
Oh, no, I'm sorry.I've got, which makes it even better.
Yeah, it's more urgent, I feel like. I've got my jazzercise.Great.Fantastic.What should we pizza toast to?
I think we should toast to nanny's pettiness.
Yeah, she went and got a whole apartment.I know, I know.And just couldn't leave it and come back.That is, like, peak petty.
It's true, it's true.I mean, I just want to say a candidate, and then we can stick with Nanny's pettiness, because I know you guys are going to overrule me.
But I also just, I really loved how Shannon and then Dawn and Marianne, like, swooped in the night Watson had the heart attack to help Christie and take care of her.Yeah. That was a deep sigh.
Hey, I just did this tailspin bridge perfectly 35 years later.I feel like I'm entitled to the schmaltz.It was cute.
Are you going to say something from Bremen town?
Bremen.Bremen.Bremen. Don't try to gaslight me, you guys.It's a very well-known folktale.Anyway, Nanny's Pettiness?Yes.A pizza toast to Nanny's Pettiness.Here's to Nanny's Pettiness.
This episode of Stuck in Stony Brook is now adjourned.
Thank you to Anna Martin for everything.Stuck in Stony Brook is edited by Emily Crandall.Theme song written and recorded by Gary Schaller, performed by the band Kid Kit.
You can follow us on Instagram, at Stuck in Stony Brook, or find us on our website, stuckinstonybrook.com.Need some books that we mentioned?
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