Was it good?Was it bad?What was it like working with him?Working with her?You'll hear all the tales you wish you knew Every aspect of the theater, too Feel your love of Broadway anew On Backstage Babble!
Hi, this is Charles Kirsch and welcome to Backstage Babble.Backstage Babble is a podcast interviewing professionals in the theater industry. about themselves, their careers, and the people they've worked with along the way.
And today, I am honored to be joined by legendary actor and director Joe Mantello.
Joe Mantello has directed Broadway productions including Wicked, Three Tall Women, The Boys in the Band, The Humans, Greyhouse, An Act of God, Casa Valentina, Assassins, 9 to 5, and more.
as well as the off-Broadway productions of Stephen Sondheim's last musical, Here We Are, A Man of No Importance, The Vagina Monologues, Corpus Christi, and Dogfight.
He's also starred on Broadway in Angels in America, The Normal Heart, and The Glass Menagerie, and appeared on screen in Feud, Capote vs. the Swans, American Horror Story, and Hollywood.And now, without further ado, Here's Joe Mantello.
And so I'd love to get started by asking you about Here We Are, which is a show I love so much.And I know, of course, you'd worked with Sondheim while he was alive on Assassins.
And what was it like sort of preserving his vision even after he was gone?
Yeah, well, they were two very different experiences because, obviously, Assassins existed in a form.And I had seen the original production.And so he wasn't really being asked to create any new material.
And it was really just about kind of putting a different spin on it, trying a different way into it.And he was a great collaborator, an incredible collaborator, very, very
generous and if he disagreed with you he would register his concerns but then he would always say you're the director and so you have to try this so he was incredibly generous.
I came on to Here We Are probably after Steve and David had been working on it a couple of years.So my first experience of it was a reading that was in a very, not a very different, but definitely a different form than the final form.
And again, it was just, it was a real joy to work with him and to kind of, walk along the road with him and kind of get to experience what his mind was like.
You know, when a genius like that is, when you get to watch up close their process, it's really incredible.But it was much more practical and, you know, basic than one would think.
Like he really was, he had a very particular way of working, which was that he needed to start from the beginning and everything would go.So he couldn't just, we couldn't just offer him an idea for a song and then have him go away and write the song.
It had to all come out of character and plot and how the score developed, which is evident in all of his work.
And I know there were a lot of great actors involved with the show at one time or another in workshops or readings.And what was the process like of sort of casting the final production?
things, the piece kind of morphed along the way.And as we discovered more specific things about it, it kind of narrowed the field of actors that we were looking for.So, I mean, we were really fortunate in that in every step of the way.
And developmentally, we had incredible actors who, you know, helped kind of illuminate the material.Some of them we asked to do it and they weren't available.Some, you know, the character went in a different direction.
But yeah, it was an interesting experience.
And what led to your decision to premiere the show at the Shed rather than on Broadway, as some people might have expected?
Well, I think it was exactly that.It was kind of to upend expectations.I mean, as you can imagine, during the final Sondheim, or the final Sondheim Ives show, musical, it was under a lot of scrutiny. And we knew it would be under a lot of scrutiny.
And the show has always been more experimental than conventional, even experimental in terms of the lineage of his work.It was really experimental.He was still pushing himself at 90-something years old.And so we wanted to kind of
maintain the context of it, and to not be coy and say, you know, well, we're starting here, but our ultimate goal is Broadway.
I don't think there was anybody on the team that really felt that Broadway, as wonderful as Broadway can be, was the ultimate destination for this particular show.
And then once we became partners with The Shed, it just was like... I mean, everything about it, like when you walked into the space of The Shed to see a Sondheim musical, all of a sudden, your expectations were upended, you know, in some way.
And by having Dennis O'Hare and Tracy on stage, sort of... doing their little pre-show thing where they're cleaning the space and maintaining the space and making it pristine.
It's just all of a sudden, everything's a little bit off from what you might have anticipated, which just went along with the kind of the feel of the show.
And what was the process like to deciding how to use the space in a kind of non-traditional way with actors coming through the audience and through the set?
Well, it's a it's a really spectacular space in that it's just a giant black box And so you can you can sort of situate your design any which way you want And I think early on we decided that a kind of a thrust Situation would be useful because we wanted the audience to be as close as possible.
I mean, I think ultimately we It sat about 520 to 525.It seemed bigger than that to me when I went to the theater.
But so it was just a way of challenging ourselves in terms of the staging and the choreography and getting people kind of letting people have a kind of an intimate experience of the show.
And did you also find that there was sort of a reluctance or a different approach to changing things in the way that you might have if all the authors were around for the rehearsal process?
Well, I think David and I, having spent all of those years with Steve, I think as we became the stewards of the work, we were well-versed in what he wanted, what we wanted the show to be, and we never strayed too far from that.
His sensibility was very much in the room with us, and particularly once we started doing performances, started performing. performances, there's a strange thing that happened almost every night.
And it was as it got close to curtain or the show starting, just right before it would start, the whole audience would go quiet right at the same time.And we always talked about that as Steve kind of coming in and sitting with us.
So we very very much felt his presence and certainly when it came to his work we changed nothing.It was exactly as he left it but you know obviously to not have his incredible reign in the room with us during previews was
was sad, but you know the thing that we always said to ourselves is what would Steve do?What would Steve want to do?
And whether it is Stephen Sondheim or Neil Simon or David Mamet, do you usually like to have the writer in the rehearsal room as much as possible or do you think some of it should kind of be away from having the writer there?
I mean, I generally do, I find the writer to be a great resource.And as long as they're open to kind of exploration, you know, like when you're rehearsing a show, there's inevitably moments where you're gonna go down dead ends, right?
And so I like, you know, as long as the writer feels comfortable that it's not going to right out of the gate, be perfect, I really love, having the writer in the room.
And I'd be curious to ask what it was like to work with Neil Simon specifically as you were a young director at that time and he was sort of towards the end of his playwriting career.
Well, you know, he was very generous, Neil.What I was most impressed with was that he never lost his sense of awe.And I would watch him, sometimes we would be standing in the back of the house, and I would watch him in his face.
was just like, it would glow with delight at the actors, at the play.Like he never, he didn't seem particularly jaded.You know, I mean, everybody's complicated.
There were times where, and I've since been told that this is kind of true of other directors in the process, that he did, he would sort of get very anxious in the final weeks of rehearsal, and he could be very, He could be tough.
And then that passed.But it was just his anxiety.But as a young director, of course, you'd think, oh, I've done something wrong.I'm really letting him down.But all in all, it was a very good experience.
And then when I did The Odd a couple of years later, he wasn't around much at all.And he came, and he was incredibly generous.And yeah, we were both at different points in our lives then.
And to go back sort of even a little bit further than that, how did you first come to New York City?How did you first decide to move?
went to well at that time it was called the North Carolina School of the Arts and it was a four-year conservatory program and I trained to be an actor and my graduating class is about 14 people and most of us moved to New York together at the same time and you know and it's a very strange experience to go from a conservatory program where you're you know
your entire day is about making theater or training or going to classes about theater so you know it's all theater all the time and then you come to New York and you have to find a job and it's no theater ever.
It was just like it's so it's very jarring and we lost a lot of people from my class.I think they you know It was like within a couple years, almost half of them had stopped, you know, decided that an acting career was not for them.
You know, it's just like there's a hustle and there's getting used to living in New York, which is a very you know, can be a very jarring experience.
But then, but I was part of a theater group that we put together with some people from the school, School of the Arts.And so that sustained us for a while.
I became a company member at a theater, a company that doesn't exist anymore called the Circle Repertory Theater.So I had a home there.
So these little places along the way where I could land, feel safe, you know, feel some value as an actor, those were very important to me.
And of course you had great success as an actor with Angels in America, but when you decided that you wanted to sort of change career paths to becoming a director, did you find that that was an easy switch to make, or that it was like starting over again?
You know, it wasn't that kind of... It really wasn't that clear a decision.So it wasn't like one day I woke up and said, I want to have a directing career.I kind of stumbled into it.And then they ran parallel to each other for a little bit of time.
But honestly, I have to tell you, after doing almost a year and a half of Angels in America, I did have this sense that it's not going to get any better than this as an actor, you know, in terms of like, a play and a part.
And so I did think like, oh, I've done that now, I've done that.And so at the same time, I had this kind of very, very early directing career that then kind of just started to, I started to enjoy that more.
And how did What's Wrong With This Picture come about as your Broadway debut?
It's notorious, What's Wrong With This Picture.The producer saw something, I was also eventually became a member
I'm skipping a little bit of things here, but I eventually became a company member at a company that still exists called Naked Angels, and had done some work down there.And the producer of that play, saw it and offered me that play.And I read it.
And I think I was really smart.And I can't believe that I was smart enough to go like, you know, this isn't really my sensibility.I'm not really sure.I'm not really sure I understand what to do.And so I said no, if you can imagine.
And I know they went and looked at other directors for about four or five months, and they couldn't find anyone.And in the meantime, I saw another play written by this writer, Donald Margulies, which I flipped for.I really loved it.
And I was like, well, maybe it's more in the vein of that play.And so What's Wrong With This Picture came around again.And I said yes.And I should have listened to my first instincts.I was not the right director for it.
There was just something about it that I just It just, I didn't, you know, some things we do well and some things we don't do well, and that was just something I just didn't, it wasn't in my bones that one.
You know, and there were some people in it that weren't particularly nice, but, you know, it was a great, I mean, in some way it was like you learn from those kind of mistakes and that,
So the first two plays that I did on Broadway were one closed within a week or two after opening, and one won the Tony Award for Best Play.So within that first experience, I had you know, sort of both ends of the spectrum of a director's career.
And that was so that was useful in the way that they what what those extremes taught me, and I sort of understood the boundaries of it.
So, you know, looking back on it now, I'm grateful for but it was a painful, it was a painful and embarrassing experience.
And what was the process like early on of figuring out sort of how you wanted to lead a room and sort of gain the respect that the director has and all that?
Yeah, you know, it's like, you make it up along the way.I mean, maybe there are people who have really, really specific, I mean, I've worked with a great director, Anne Bogart, and she has a very specific way of working.
And I think there are other people, but mine is, you know, I try to get a sense of the people in the room and what the dynamic of the room is.And then you start to watch actors if you haven't worked with them before, and different actors
need different things from a director or use a director or collaborate with a director in different ways.And so it's a little bit like figuring that out.When I come into rehearsal, I know the play backwards and forwards.
And recently, I would say that in the last eight or nine years, on most things that I've done, I ask the actors to come with the show memorized.
And because one of the things that that does, even though it's a cruel, cruel thing to do to somebody who's, you know, playing Martha and who's afraid of Virginia Woolf and George, it forces you, it forces the actor to really, to really
have to engage with the play and let it become part of your unconscious, as opposed to coming in on day one and going like, okay, page one, what are the lines, you know, just the act of the practical act of memorization forces you to engage with grapple with that play as you kind of try to figure out, you know, just the technical skill of memorization.
So that I find to be really useful.
And when you're working as a director with people who are sort of established stars in their own right, like Bette Midler or Nathan Lane, is that ever sort of a different consideration in terms of the balance of a rehearsal room or something like that?
Well, the two people that you mentioned are very, very different.
You know, Nathan, you know, when you work with Nathan Lane, or Laurie Metcalf, or Jim Parsons, they really, they're, they're, they, they understand how to lead a room, because they come in, they're prepared, they're memorizing.
And so when they rehearse, they generally rehearse at 100%.You know, they're trying things, they're risking, they're experimenting, but at 100%.I mean, particularly someone like Nathan, I don't think he's capable of kind of
phoning it in, or, you know, he's always, and I like that as a director, I respond incredibly well to that, because all of a sudden, the process is out there.I know that there are lots of ways of working.
And there's another way of working, which is that you assemble the pieces slowly, sometimes more privately, before you're ready to share with the room or with the director.And that's completely legitimate.
It's just I sometimes I sometimes don't know what my then my job then becomes one of support and encouragement, but I can't I'm not actively
engaged in that process where someone like Nathan or Jim you know you hit the ground running and everybody's you know you're just trying to find the best most interesting way of doing it.
And with Bette Midler and also with Mario Cantone and others you've worked on these solo projects and what is that experience like for you as a director figuring out how to sort of make it feel like a full show even with just one person on stage?
Yeah that's an interesting question.
I mean with Mario it's different because it was- that was his- he'd been- I'd seen him do variations on that material for years and years and years and so we shaped it but it wasn't- for the most part it wasn't really brand new material.
We were taking material that he'd done in the clubs and kind of trying to find a way to make it a, you know, a Broadway show, which I think we did.I think that was pretty successful.
You know, there's something about doing a one person show that it's incredibly lonely for the actor. And it's terrifying.I've done it with Bette.I've done it with Jim.I've done it with Eve Ensler.I've done it with a lot of people, David Cale.
And it's like a high wire act, but you really only have yourself at the end of the day.And so in that case, with Bette, it was a lot about just kind of encouraging her. being there to kind of support her.
And I mean, that particular show had no staging.I mean, it actually had a lot of business with phones and cigarettes and eating.But she was, you know, she sat on a sofa and she didn't move until the last minute of the play.So it wasn't like
The task wasn't about how do we make this staging interesting?It was like, how do we track a psychological and emotional journey through this play with no movement whatsoever?And that's just trial and error.
And I thought she was incredibly brave because she hadn't been on stage, certainly in a play. I don't even remember how many years.So it was a huge risk that she was taking.
And yeah, it's not my favorite thing to do, I will say that, because there is a part of it where you're waiting for the actor to feel confident enough to start to play it.And sometimes that doesn't happen until you get in front of an audience.
I mean, it really is like, you can imagine, you know, doing something like Jim and I, Jim and Sean Hayes and I, Sean took over from, did a play called An Act of God, which is really, you know, like, It was about interacting with the audience.
And in that particular case, I mean, you can rehearse up until a point, but until you get in front of that audience, it's hard to shape the material and for the actor to know, like, what's the roller coaster of this show going to be?Right.Yeah.
And you referred to the vagina monologues and I'd be curious to know what it was like there setting up something that could be done by so many actresses sort of going forward and if that was a consideration to start with or?
Yeah, I think the producer had always imagined that it would, that Eve would, I don't even remember how long Eve's run was, but that Eve would kind of do several months run.
And that the idea then was to, to have actresses come in for in three months, sorry, two weeks, a two week run each.So, uh, I was, you know, every two weeks I was rehearsing a new group of women.
One day we had a rehearsal, the second day we teched it, and that night they did it.So the process was really, really fast.And, you know, it's hard material.
I mean, it's hard material just in terms of technically it's hard material, but it's emotionally very difficult.For some of the women it was embarrassing. That's the great thing about Eve and her activism.She was really a pioneer now.
I mean, to imagine having an ad for something called the Vagina Monologues at the time was really provocative.
Right. And were there particular highlights in terms of actresses that you worked with on that process?Because there were so many great ones.
So many.There were so many.I mean, I'm trying to think.I mean, yeah, it was like over the course of I don't even remember how long it was.I want to say it was almost two years.You'd come through, and some of my favorite actresses would come through.
And so it was interesting. It was a fascinating experience.I'm not sure I would want to do it again.
Because again, it was a lot of it was just helping them to feel confident with themselves, with the material, and with the with a very brief rehearsal time, you know?Yeah.
And Wicked is of course another project that's seen many great actors and women go in and out of it.And what has that process been like of auditioning people for longer runs and maybe sort of even reconsidering what some of the characters are like?
Yeah.Well, it's interesting.I mean, I had never had anything like that experience, and I probably won't ever again.But there are different requirements that a director has in the long run like that.And
if just very simply put, is that there's a there's an extraordinary team of people who really do the day to day running of the show.And that's my associate, Lisa Luguio.She's been on the show from the very beginning.
And she's, you know, she's really the heart and soul of the show.And she's the person who keeps it running.But what's tricky about it is, and it's the thing that we struggle with even today, which is, Again, limited rehearsal time.
That show, that big show is up and running and that train is going whether you're on or not.So how to balance that with allowing actors to come in.I don't feel, I don't want anyone to feel obligated to give Kristen Chenoweth's performance.Right.
I'm not there in the room when they're rehearsing it and so they're being put in by a great stage manager or and Lisa and sometimes just for expedience's sake it gets like you don't want it to become like you start at nine you know those numbers that they put along you start at nine and you go to six and then you hand the thing here like you don't want it to just be that
But they have one day with the cast, they're put in as one day.
And so, it's like we're still 20 years into it, are trying to, like sometimes I'll go and see the show, and I will say to Lisa or to the stage manager, I'll say, that particular actor seems really uncomfortable, why are they...
You're doing it, and they said, well, she feels that it's this, but that's not what the staging is.And I keep saying, no, I don't care if the staging is exact, but you have to maintain the spirit of the scene, and you can't walk out of the light.
But if they have a new way into it, yeah, please explore that.But it's years that have been done.
Right. And what is it like, too, when you're working on a show like Wicked or like Greyhouse recently that has a lot of kind of technical elements involved in it and balancing that time in rehearsal with the time to work on the show itself?
Well, it's interesting with Greyhouse.I was talking to someone about this the other day.Our extraordinary sound designer, Tom Givens,
He was in the room with us nearly every day, because we had decided early on, and I think Levi even, Levi Holloway, the playwright, even talks about it in the play, is that that house that the characters are living in is alive, it's organic, it is another character.
And so, He was very much a part of the process of building scenes.He would sit there and in real time play or experiment with sound with us.So we always had him.
So that moment when you go from the rehearsal room to the theater and you add technical elements, he had been with us all along. And that was really, really useful.
And because it was part of the music and rhythm of that play, those sounds that the characters were experiencing in the house.So that was really useful.You know, Wicked was over 20 years ago.
I think I was just, I think I was so young and naive at the time that I didn't, had I known how enormous it was going to be.I think I would have been much more frightened than I actually was, but I think at the time I don't know.
I didn't have a frame of reference for it, but so I was learning on the job with that.
Right, and how do you decide sort of what sound designer or set designer or costume designer is appropriate for a certain project?
Um, two things.I mean, there are a series of people, there's, there's a group of people that I've worked with over the years, and we have shared sensibility and kind of a shorthand with one another.
And so I like to, I like to continue that creative conversation with them.But I've also I tried to, to try to have at least one
person that I've never worked with on the design team, just to challenge myself to expand my knowledge of who's out there and who's working.So I don't get so it doesn't get stale.Right.
It really is that the project will dictate, you know, the designers that that come on board.
And you talked a little bit before about making actors comfortable and sort of the art of that and with a show like Frankie and Johnny and the Clair de Lune or like Take Me Out that has nude scenes involved.
What is that process like of dealing with that with actors?Yeah.
It's complicated, right?I mean, again, I mean, I'm trying to think if I was in a I was a I was different than I mean, I think that certainly with Take Me Out, I remember thinking like, well, I don't want to make anyone self conscious, right?
And so we're not going to joke about this.We're not going to we're sort of gonna I assumed everyone read the script, and they knew that they would have to be naked at one point.And that I allowed it to happen when it organically needed to happen.
And there were people in the cast who did it in the rehearsal room, wanted to try it in the rehearsal room, which was their choice, because that was part of their process.But as I remember, we
We didn't, we didn't really, you know, there was a big shower scene with all of them.And they didn't really do it until we started at the Donmar in London.And that was the first time they did it.
And I just didn't want anyone to be self-conscious about it, because that's not what it was.And with Frankie and John, you know, it starts with these two characters making love, and then and then you know and then the sort of the dialogue begins.
We would always start after you know they had finished Making Love and one day they came to me and said we're going to stay after rehearsal and with this I think with the stage manager.
I think the stage manager was there and we want to try this with no one around I was like, great.And then it just happened in the theater again.I don't know.
It's a tricky thing, because you want people to feel safe and comfortable, and they're not being exploited in any way.And so I guess the best way that I've come to figure out how to deal with it is to just let it happen organically.
Right. And Terrence McNally is, of course, another playwright who you've had a long collaboration with.And what do you think makes you two such good collaborators?
Well, Terrence was special and one of a kind.And I really, I owe him so much because he really took an enormous risk, took a big chance on me with Love, Valor, Compassion.And I certainly didn't have the credits at that time
I'm sure it was very frightening for Manhattan Theatre Club who was producing it.But that's who Terrence was and Terrence was like that with a lot of people.
I remember at his memorial one of the common themes that came up was that Terrence, people saying Terrence took a chance on me. Terrence took a chance on me.
I mean, he's the one that, you know, Nathan Lane was an actor who was around New York, but Terrence put him in his play Lisbon Traviata, and it made Nathan a star. He just trusted his instincts.
You know, quite often in this business, in my experience, decisions are made by who's hot.I don't mean physically, but I mean who's of the moment. You know, and Terrence never made those decisions.It was all instinctual.
And he had a lot to lose by hiring me to direct his play.But I think we had a meeting and we just had this kind of shared sensibility about the play.And again, because I was younger, I wasn't And I hadn't had big budgets before.
I wasn't intimidated by the storytelling, which was it's in a house, it's on a lake, it's in a car, just like, oh, we'll find some playful way to do these.But it didn't intimidate me.
And I think a lot of, from what he said to me, other people were kind of like trying to sort out the practicalities of how to get these sets on and off.And I was like, oh, I never had any money for sets. Let's figure it out.
And that was really like, you know, we did some of our best work together.He was he's it was an extraordinary, extraordinary artist.And I learned so much from him.And I miss him every day.And he could do it.He could do anything.It's amazing.
And with his play, Corpus Christi, I know there were protests outside the theater and things like that.And how did that sort of impact the work of putting on the show, if you felt it did?
Oh, yeah, definitely, definitely did.
You know, you know, I think we're all living in the world that we live in now we're all used to going through metal detectors and high security like that's not that that that feels sort of no, that's the new normal for us.
But at the time, the idea of going through a metal detector to come in and watch a play because there were bomb threats, there were bomb sniffing dogs that came through the theater at every performance.
There were two security guards on either side of the stage.I mean, tensions were high and it was fraught.But within that, we, meaning Terrence and myself and the actors and the designers, we tried to block it out as much as possible and to have a
to have a pretty, to try to deliver a kind of a pure experience of this play that was You know, I think the tricky thing that I've always thought about this play is there was all of this noise around it about how controversial it was.
But in my estimation, the play is not controversial at all.And certainly not in the way that it had been framed, which was that it was a gay Jesus having sex with his disciples.That was not.That just wasn't what the play was about.
The play was an exploration of a gay man's exploration of trying to locate himself in spirituality. And it came from a pure place in Terrence, in a searching place.
So all the noise had nothing to do with us, and yet we had to acknowledge that it was there.But it was amazing.That was a really, really incredible experience because it
It dictated the design of the show, which was that in stage one, in Manhattan Theater Club stage one, we basically just opened up the whole thing.And it was just an empty theater with a platform in the center.
And the idea was, there's nothing threatening here.There's nothing frightening here.There's nothing.This is just, you're going to see everything.You don't need to be frightened.
And the actors were just sort of, I just said, sit wherever you want before the show starts.And sometimes they would go out and talk to friends, or they'd be sitting in the corner, whatever they wanted to do.
It was just like, we're all here in this room together, and we're going to tell this story, period.Right.
And on the sort of other side of that when you are doing a show that explicitly deals with some kind of darker subject matter or more controversial subject matter, how do you make it so that the audience isn't sort of pushed to be too uncomfortable that they stop sort of appreciating it?
Well I think being uncomfortable is a good thing.I think it can be a good thing.You know some plays the
one of the driving forces behind them is to make an audience member feel uncomfortable or to do something that's shocking so that you have to leave the theater and kind of talk about it.
So I'm not, I don't see my job as trying to make the audience feel comfortable, but I don't know, is there something you're thinking of that, is there a play that you're thinking of?
I don't know, well something like maybe assassins or grey house or things that have these sort of like almost horror elements to them.
Yeah, I mean assassins, it's an uncomfortable subject matter and so I don't know that finding a way to make it palatable or safe was ever part of the discussion.What we wanted to do was
know, deliver Steve and John's, what the things that they were grappling with in that show, and some of them were very, very, you know, we were supposed to do we were on 9-11,
we were was the final day of casting for assassins for the remaining, I think, ensemble members.Obviously, it was canceled.
And because one of the characters Sam Bick talks about flying 747 into the White House, we just felt that there was no way that we could That show could get a fair hearing, given how traumatized we were as a nation, and certainly in New York.
You know?And so the idea was to postpone it.And I was skeptical.I thought, oh, well, we're never going to do it.And then about a year and a half later, Todd Hames called me and said, so I think we should do it.And just that little bit of time.
allowed it to, you know, allowed a kind of a perspective to set in a kind of, I know, I wouldn't say that equilibrium had returned, but it was, things certainly felt differently than they did.
Had we even been stupid enough to attempt to do it on the original schedule.And so no, I don't think there's any way to make that show more, more palatable.
And another play you worked on that happened at a very sort of fraught political time was Hillary and Clinton, although probably intentionally, I would imagine.
And what was it like to kind of handle that story that wasn't about, obviously, the 2016 election, but at the same time as that was in people's minds?
Yeah, I mean, gosh, I'm trying to think of what did it feel like.
I don't know, I mean, because we sort of approached her as a fictional character, we've approached them as fictional characters. doing things.
And so, you know, I think one of the things about Lucas's writing, particularly in that play, is there's all of the real world information that we have about the Clintons.
And then there's the fiction that's happening in the play and how those two things chafe up against one another.And as if you're getting a kind of a
a backstage look but I know that when they did it I think the original production was done in Chicago and I'm sorry I don't remember what the name of the theater was but you know they had a black actress play Hillary Clinton so the idea of it is it's not meant to be a documentary of an expose of what really went on with her campaign
So I was, I mean, anytime I'm in a room with Lori Metcalf, I'm happy.So that's what I, that's basically what I remember.
And what makes that sort of collaboration work so well between you two on so many different projects?
It's a shared sense of humor, a shared way of working.We're both from Illinois.So we have our kind of, what we refer to as kind of an Illinois practicality.Like we just get down to work.
tell the truth, you know, like we're not, we're not about, neither one of us likes to be coddled or duped and, you know, like we just sort of want to, want to roll up our sleeves and do it.But I think it's a shared sense of humor.
And one of the things that I really love most about being in rehearsal with Lori is, because she's, she's, you know, a kind of an acting savant, is that you can,
throw her any idea, and she will not only do what you imagine, she'll make it 10 times better.And so sometimes we just do things, throw things back and forth that will make each other laugh.
And we're just like-minded in terms of the way that we work.
And what was it like to work with not just her but also Glenda Jackson on Three Tall Women?
Glenda's amazing, it was incredible.But Glenda, you know, Glenda was an actor who got a charge out of, she liked to spar.She liked to spar with everybody. And I think some of that came out of being in parliament all those years.
So it was often scene work was couched in a kind of a very fierce debate.And she could be unyielding, but she was extraordinary.I mean, her power as an actor was not diminished at all.
I mean, here's the thing, the difference between working with Laurie and Glenda is that in the first act of the play, that character A has long monologues, and she's sort of recounting bits of her life.And Glenda, for whatever reason,
felt that it was not important to deliver it to the other two actors on stage.And so it was very, I don't want to use the word presentational because that kind of diminishes what she was doing, but it had a different kind of style to it.
And I kept saying, but we have to, it can't, you have to engage them in some way.There has to be some sort of event on stage.Otherwise, you know,
Laurie and Allison, they don't have anything to play and she would say, it's not what I'm doing, it's the quality of the listening. So that was her way of saying, like, it's not her fault, it's theirs.So we did this for many, many weeks.
And then I kept saying, Glenda, I really like hanging up these other two actors.Like, they don't, they're just, and I said, if you want to do that, like, we'll do that.Like, that's a legitimate choice.But then I have to create a,
I have to create an event or something that's happening in the room that is dealing realistically with what's happening, which is that you're talking to yourself.
And so she continued to do it.And I got a pack of cards.And I said to Lori, when you get bored, play cards.
And it had the interesting effect of, I think it ultimately, Glenda's stubbornness made for a better and a more realistic choice that I'm not sure I would have stumbled on.
But what it did was that the life in the room was activated by this woman who was just rambling.And the other two people, particularly Lori as her caretaker, did what one would do in that situation, which is,
I'm, you know, I'm going to just play games with myself.And when she needs me, I'll perk up.And then which made Alison, you know, kind of look at what Laurie was doing.
And then so they had this whole life that was going on that existed in counterpoint to what Glenda was doing. I think, and Laurie and I were talking about this, it's really interesting and so much better than what I was asking her to do.
So in the end, I was deeply appreciative of her standing her ground, because it made me it made us figure out another way into it that I don't think we would have that we would have happened on without that.
So it was, you know, I mean it was challenging, but it was worth it.
Right.And when you are approaching a revival as opposed to an original work, do you like to do any research into previous productions, or do you try to avoid that as much as possible?
I mean, with Three Tall Women, with Assassins, I had actually seen the original productions of both of those.I'm trying to think of what else I've done, but I obviously didn't see the original Odd Couple.Depends, I mean...
Yeah, I think in those two cases, seeing the original productions and sort of evaluating my experience, both of which I liked very much, but it allowed me to, sort of gave me permission to try and find another way into both of them.
And one Broadway revival you worked on was Pout Jelly.And what was it like sort of approaching that script that had also been done many times before, but in a newer era?
Yeah, it was a brand new script by Richard Greenberg.And I thought he did an incredible job.I mean, I really think, you know, I understand that a purist, the purists who say you shouldn't, you shouldn't really tamper with the book.
I don't know if anybody's read the book to pal Joey lately.It's, it's really, you know, it's why I think it has an incredible score.But the book is it's just, I mean, it's a curiosity because
the way musicals are made now, I would say personally, I know this is maybe an unpopular opinion, I don't think the book has aged particularly well.And so that's why everybody keeps trying to solve Pal Joey.
I'm not sure that it's possible, but I don't know.I thought Richard did a really, it was a very smart adaptation. So I don't know.I mean, that was a wonderful experience.
And what was the process like there?I know of having to kind of replace an actor mid previews and having that additional kind of pressure on it.
Yeah, I mean, that's never a pleasant moment for anyone. I mean, particularly in that case, you know, someone who was the center of the show.My understanding of it is that he, that Christian injured his foot and was unable to go on.
That is what I was told.And so I reluctantly, you know, replaced him. Subsequently, there have been other stories that have come out that I don't know.My job was to direct the show.Right.I was told that he was unable to perform.
And so I'd love to ask about A Man of No Importance, which was a musical you worked on with Terrence McNally.And that was another musical that started off Broadway and has had great success since and then.And what was it like to work on that?
Yeah, I mean, it was really one of the first, because I had directed mostly new plays up until that point, and worked a lot with Terrence.And he, you know, he would constantly throw these challenges down, like he, and Jake Heggie wrote the opera
dead man walking.And he was like, you have to direct this opera.And I mean, I have no experience with opera.I had probably seen an opera.But, you know, but he he was a big believer and in in in challenging his his collaborators.
And so it was the same with Man of No Importance, though. though the kind of musical it was, was closer to a play, as opposed to like, Anything Goes, you know, or No, No, Nanette.
It wasn't, you know, it didn't have that, it wasn't that kind of musical.And so it was like a natural kind of segue.I mean, working with Lynn and Steven was extraordinary.They're both incredible artists.It was, it was, it was
Yeah, it was a very happy experience working with Roger Rees.It was thrilling.I mean, Roger was really a consummate actor and a beautiful soul.
And do you like to read the kind of critical reception of either the work you do or the shows you're involved in?
most of the time I do not because I find that it's going to be illuminating in any way.I don't, I don't have high opinions of the people who are writing today.All of them.But you know, you just want to get a sense of what's the general temperature
Because then it's I think it's part of my job is that I go up to the theater before, you know, on the day after the reviews come out and just make sure everything's okay, that there's, you know, and certainly sometimes people want to talk about them, you know, or if an actress gotten, you
I remember with Wicked, it was really, he wrote her, he wrote Kristen a true love letter in that review, in what was essentially a pan of the show.And as I recall, he barely mentioned Adina.
And, you know, that's tough because the two of them, it's their story.Right. unappreciated. in that.I mean, because at the time, also, the New York Times was, I think it's less so now.
I mean, I don't think they have the same kind of pull and power that they once did.But you know, you would all be sort of gearing up to see like, what did the Times say?And so that was tricky.And it was good.
It was useful information that I had to go up there and see the company, but to see both of them, who had had very different experiences of their work being evaluated in a very kind of public way.
And I'm curious to ask how you decided to return to acting on Broadway with The Normal Heart when that came about.
When I stopped acting, it was not, there was no hardship involved in that.I didn't, I never really looked back.I didn't, I didn't miss it.But I saw the original production of The Normal Heart at the Public when I first moved to New York and it had
this profound impact on me.Like it changed me in this seismic way.And I became a volunteer at GMHC afterwards.And it really impacted my life.And particularly that character, there was something about that character that I loved.
And so the only regret I had when I stopped acting was that I never got to play that part.
and even back in the day when after I saw it I arranged like a little reading in our living room with my roommates and we all read the play because I just really wanted to play that part and so then cut to like 17 years later or whatever it was I mean I hadn't acted for 17 years and I ran into Joel Grey
at something I had directed, and we were just talking about what we were doing, and he said, oh, I'm about to direct a reading of The Normal Heart in LA.And I said, oh, that's the only part I really regret not getting to play.
And he said, well, come do it.And he said, it's like a one night thing.And I said, really?And I thought about it, and then I couldn't do it. I can't remember what.And then when they were doing it in New York, he asked me to do it.
And I was like, oh yeah, I'll definitely do it. So it really was, it was born out of my deep desire to play that part.
So we did the benefit reading of it and there were people in the audience who wanted to move it to Broadway, which I'm not sure would happen today, but it did.
And so it was just this kind of weird, you know, odd series of events that led to us doing it that way.
And did you find that it was ever sort of a struggle to set aside the director's instinct and go back to kind of just being an actor?
I kind of relished the opportunity to not be responsible and I mean certainly when we did it for Broadway, George Wolfe is a master director and in fact he was the director that I had last worked with in Angels in America and so that so to kind of resume with him felt right.
So no I don't and I'd missed the your position in the process is so different as a director.And one of the things that I realized that I'd missed was the kind of backstage camaraderie of actors and the life that goes on backstage.
Because you're really separate from all of that as a director.And it's important that you, I mean, you can have friends in the show and you can go out and have a drink with them, but that time is precious and it's theirs.So to be back in that,
I really enjoyed that, particularly in Normal Heart.Yeah.Yeah.
And then on the other kind of side of that, what was it like to be being directed by Sam Gold, who's kind of a younger director, and if that was different at all, who you hadn't worked with before?
I mean, Sam was a director that I mean, the reason I did that show was unlike the normal heart.It wasn't it wasn't like it wasn't Tom Wingfield was not a part that I had always imagined myself playing.And in fact, I
when they asked me about it, I just, I couldn't quite see it.But the impetus to do the play was really based on Sam, who was a director that I had been following and really admiring.
And what I admired most about him is that he has a kind of, his metabolism as a director, I'm much more like Like, I feel like I've got to keep it moving.And Sam is so comfortable with silence.
I mean, particularly in those early plays of Annie Baker's that he did, the way in which a story would unfold.But he doesn't, he's not, I mean, I don't think I'm saying something that he wouldn't say.
His primary concern is not taking care of an audience.And I think I'm much more concerned with it.So I wanted to be in a room with him so that I could understand that process and see what I could learn from it.
And that was really the reason that I did the play and to work with Sally Field who you know is just a genius.
When you're working on a play like The Normal Heart or in fact like The Boys in the Band that's so kind of of its time originally, what is it like to be doing it that many years later?
Well, I mean, they're both very powerful plays.And, you know, plays like both of those plays can speak to generations that come after.
And what was so moving about The Normal Heart was we would have these certain shows would be, I think it was called like 30 Under 30 or something like that, where it was you know, to try to get young people to come to the theatre.
And I remember talking to particularly young men, gay men, who had no frame of reference for that time.You know, there's a scene where Felix, played by John Benjamin Hickey, and Emma, played by Alan Barkin.
he goes to her, and he has a series of questions.And one of the questions is, well, can we kiss?And she says, I don't know.And in the time that it was written, it was that was true.Right, you know, and for a generation of
we were meant to have to entertain that concept of, I thought it was really powerful.And so sharing that history, and the same thing with Boys in the Band, like, what does it mean?What does that kind of behavior
What does it do to one's soul, one's psyche, one's heart?And it wasn't that long ago.I mean, you know, they weren't that long ago.Yeah.
And with Boys in the Band 2, what was it like having Mark Crowley still around and having his own input?
I mean, again, I've been- I really- I mean, you say these people's names and the first thing that comes to my mind is it's so I really have been so fortunate to work with Larry Kramer, Terrence McNally, Mark Crawley, you know.
who came generation, gay men who came from generations before me, what they risked and what they passed on to me.I mean, Mart was as kind and as dear a person and as funny a person as you could hope to know.And he was, again, extremely generous.
And it was deeply satisfying to have him around to see that play appreciated in a new light, you know?I mean, because it's beautifully – I mean, set aside, you know, politics of it.It's a beautifully crafted play.
I mean, it's really, you know, that ain't easy to do.
And so I really think that, you know, somehow, you know, there's something about and Terrence would say this all the time, there's something about the real estate of the on Broadway, those theaters, when you take a play, like the normal heart, which was done in in, you know, at the public theater.
And so the context of it is, you experience it as kind of more agitprop.
But when you put it into the real estate of Broadway, all of a sudden, the motions of that play can live in a space that gives a kind of a breath and that allows for this size to them that's in them.
But when you're doing them in a little theater, it's just a different thing.And I think the same thing with Boys in the Band. It allowed it to be the beautifully crafted piece of work that it is.
Right.And do you believe that shows should start in some kind of either smaller theater in New York or out of town or something like that?Or do you think there's something to be said for sort of going right to Broadway?
I think it really depends on that.I think it depends on the show.We were really happy at the Shed with Here We Are.I will tell you that.That was a great, great experience.
Because I think in some ways, we were writing the rules for that show as we went along.We weren't trying to fit it into the boundaries of what is considered a Broadway show.We would have made different choices along the way.
But we really got to own the the what that show was.And so I don't know, it's, it's a different thing.But I think other, you know, I mean, it really depends on the piece itself.
And you worked on Casa Valentina, which is kind of a classic play for our generation about gay men and that sort of history.
It's not about gay men.That's the thing that's really complicated about the play.It's about heterosexual men and it's about heterosexual men who For people who don't know it, it's based on a true story of this.
this little home in the Catskills where heterosexual men would come and dress as women.And it wasn't drag.And it wasn't kind of to sit there and read each other and be bitchy.Quite often, what they would do is they would play cards.
The outfits or the clothing that they wore wasn't particularly glamorous. they tended to dress more like their mothers and aunts and kind of more suburban than kind of fabulous.
And so it's a very kind of, it was a very, very difficult concept to get because they were not gay.And I think that that play was just slightly ahead of its time. But again, with Harvey, an extraordinary writer and person.
And what is the process like with a play like that of not only doing your own research on the topic, but also sort of making sure that all the actors kind of understand the period and the context?
Yeah. I'm trying to think.
Almost all of the men in the cast were heterosexual.And so one of the things that we did Before we went into rehearsals, we had a day where we had a table full of wigs.We had makeup.We had some clothing, some padding.
And we just had a kind of a day where they got to dress up and experience what that was to have to create another persona that wasn't about, it wasn't a drag queen, but something much more intimate.And it was really, it was moving that day.
And Mare Winningham, who played one of two women in the play, but the main woman who was kind of like the den mother of all of them was there that day.And she was photographing them.
And I remember her just being so touched by how vulnerable it made the actors.And they took it really seriously.It didn't turn into it didn't turn into what you might think it would turn into, where it kind of is like, bitchy and sarcastic.
It was very, there was a kind of real purity about it.And we photographed them, or they photographed themselves afterwards.And it was really the first step for all of us to begin to understand part of the story of that play.
We've talked about some of these great playwrights from other generations like Terrence McNally and Neil Simon, and one of them from this generation that you worked with was Stephen Karam on The Humans.And what was that kind of collaboration like?
Yeah, I mean, the play arrived one day, he sent me an email and said, I have this play, would you think about doing it?
And, and I, and I remember thinking, like, I was somewhere and I thought, like, Oh, I'll just, yeah, I'll read it in the next few days.And I opened it up, and I started to read it.And I couldn't stop.
And I really wrote him almost right away and said, anywhere, anytime.I mean, that play is so The blueprint for that play is so specific and so clear that you really just have to follow the the information that he's given you.
It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it was fully formed in him.And our job was to inhabit it.But the it's almost like the score of that play, he heard it, and it was so specific.And, you know, so we would really work on getting
And that was a play that the one thing that I knew was that we would have to rehearse on the set.So from day one, we had that set because the timing of it was so specific.
without that I mean we would have just been we would have been in tech for like two weeks but he's yeah he really he knew exactly what that play was and we made very very very few changes.
I'll ask him when I see it but I almost I think they were almost none which is unique for a new play.
And you mentioned the score of the play kind of figuratively, but when do you decide to put actual music in a play when you're approaching it?How do you decide when that's appropriate?
I mean, I try not to do it anymore because it feels like I'm just at the point in my life where it feels a little bit like cheating.But I don't know.I mean, I think a good play has its own music.
And if you're going to add additional music, you had better be sure that it's not disrupting the score that the playwright has given you.
Like when you work with David Mamet, David Mamet does not allow sound design in his plays, none, no music, no sounds, no sound effects, nothing.And he very,
I think it's a little dogmatic for me, but I understand the thinking behind it, which is he's the composer.He doesn't want you to editorialize by adding another kind of the music that might comment on or disrupt his music.Right.I respect it.
It can make things really, really challenging if you have to go from you have multiple locations, but you know I'm up for that kind of challenge.But it can be very stark to do one of his plays.
Right, and with the humans I guess casting sort of romantic dynamics can be its own challenge, but figuring out sort of how actors will work as a family and whether they'll seem realistic as a family, what is that process like?
I think Cassie and Sarah were sort of both kind of, Stephen had them in mind when he wrote them.
Same with Jane, and Jane and I, I knew Jane when I was an apprentice at the Timberlake Playhouse, so I met her when I was 17 years old and she was the leading lady of the company, so we go way back.
So those three, Reed, I think Reed did a reading of it? I can't remember.Lauren was someone that I'd worked with before and she auditioned and then Arian was just someone that we both admired and we just offered him the part.
Right and to take us up kind of to the present day, I know you were working on this production of Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf right when the pandemic happened and what was that process like of going through sort of shutting it down then it eventually didn't reopen when?
Yeah We were nine, we had done nine, I think we did nine previews of that play.And it was one of the most challenging experiences I've ever had.I mean, it is like the Mount Everest of plays. To scale it, it takes everything you have.
And we had quite a long rehearsal process.We had, I think, probably five weeks in the room.And we really struggled with finding the right attack on the third act, which was the hardest, I think, of all three.
And we were also trying something design wise, that I thought would work.I can't tell you whether it did or not, because we didn't see it enough.But we had a very different take on the set.And
I was just, you know, I was always disappointed that we never got to see whether it would actually play out and work the way that we wanted.
But at the time, you know, when we were told that we were told that, I mean, it was everybody was taking like four weeks off.See you in a month. Some people were smart enough, like Laurie, and I think Russell and Patsy went back to London.
But I think we stayed around.Anyway, so I mean, it was just like, you know, we just thought like, oh, well, we'll resume in a month.
Right.And what has it been like now to actually sort of see the other side of the pandemic?And do you think that it's changed anything about sort of what audiences respond to or things like that?
I do.I think there have been lots of little shifts culturally. You know, people's theater going habits have been disrupted.Some have come back.Some haven't.Some may.We may have lost some forever.
The kinds of projects that are being produced are different.And so that's changing the landscape of Broadway. different players have come in, different players have emerged.Others have gone away.
And so all of that has a kind of an effect on the shift.I mean, it's certainly I don't know whether what if you feel this is true, but I think the Broadway pre COVID and the Broadway that exists now seem like two wildly different places.
Yes, I do, I do.I mean, I think certainly there's a lot more diversity in the work being produced, and different things are successful than would have been before, I think.And yeah, it definitely does seem like a changed landscape.
But what's interesting is, is like, you know, most of those theaters are full, so it hasn't really impacted the amount of work that's being produced.It's, you know, as you said, the kinds of work that's being produced is different.
But it's mostly about the audiences, right?Like, it's... Are we doing enough to develop a new audience?Because that kind of theater-going audience that sustained Broadway for years, they either haven't come back or they're dying out, right?
And so those people who would come to the matinees, that Wednesday matinee crowd.
It's just not, it's shifted.There's been a shift there.And so what does that do to the dynamics of a run of a show and, you know, the financial model for it?
Yeah.And I do wonder if or sort of why you think that Greyhouse wasn't able to have quite as long of a run and if you think that that has anything to do with this sort of change in dynamics or your audience.
I do, I don't know.I thought the marketing was smart.I really love the production and the actors in it.I don't, I'm not really sure
Um, I know that there was this thing that I don't really understand that you probably understand in a way that it just hasn't.I don't have a kind of a concept for it, which, um, theater influencers have become new marketing.Right.
And so one that would happen for gray houses that they would have all of these events for, you know, influencers that just was like, It was antithetical to the way that I know how to make things, you know?
And I think part of being an influencer is access, right?Like, you want access, and you want this, and you want that.And that's all great, because it's part of your brand.
But I'm also like, and the people that I, like Lori that I've worked with, it's like, that's a private, that's private.That's ours. And it's not meant to be combative.It's just like, but that's our time.You don't get access to that.
And I know that one of the things that went on with the Greyhouse and some of the discussions that we would have is I was like, I don't understand these kind of talkbacks that you're having.Like, it doesn't make any sense to me.And is that really...
Is that really generating an audience?I mean, I know people are showing up for them, but what is the data telling you?Is that having any effect?
And quite often what would, I mean, I'll just be honest with you, quite often what would happen is that someone would be leading a discussion, someone that I'd never met, someone that had nothing to do with our production, had no information about our production, was leading a discussion about our production.
And I mean, maybe I'm just a dinosaur, but I was like, that's not cool.Like, why is that person doing it?And so I sort of said, you have to, if you're gonna do this,
you have to have someone from the production there to share that space with them so that there's at least a representative of somebody who understood the impulse behind certain things.
Because I didn't want somebody up there kind of leading a discussion on the play.Right.That makes sense.That makes sense. Yeah.But I don't know, maybe that's the new thing, so I don't know.
And so, like many other people, I'm now watching you on Capote vs. the Swans.And I know this TV acting has sort of been something you've been doing a lot recently with Ryan Murphy.
And what has it been like to kind of pursue acting in this different format?
I wouldn't use the word pursue, because it's not something that I am pursuing.And those opportunities just came to me.But I have no desire to kind of go out and don't consider myself an actor.
I consider myself someone who's been given opportunities, which I'm incredibly grateful for.But because I, you know, when I was acting, I didn't have a lot of experience doing TV and film, or TV and film.I just, it was never a part.
So I feel like sort of later in life, I'm kind of, learning a new skill.And that part of it, I really, I really love.And I'm grateful for because it's it's takes me it's taken me way out of my comfort zone.And I'm kind of learning on the job.
And people have been nice enough to create an opportunity for me to learn on the job.But um,
I haven't watched it and I won't watch it because I'm more interested in the process of making it and what I'm learning rather than kind of, well, what did it turn out like?What do I look?You know, I'm not, that's just not who I am.
And I do wonder if the sort of combination of actor and director would be something that would ever interest you.Would you want to direct a play that you were also in or something like that?
think so.I mean, I'm trying to imagine a scenario where that would, where that would be.I mean, I certainly couldn't imagine, with the right people, I can imagine doing it.But also, it would be more like co directing it with someone.
But I'm not, I'm not.I say this now, but then things always change.I'm not that interested in, in acting.I mean, eight shows a week is that's really, it's really, it's a lot.
I remember like, you know, for some reason, doing Angels in America, even though it was like a three or four hour show, I mean, I was a younger guy then.And so I had this energy and the stamina, the excitement to do it.
But I mean, Glass Menagerie was hard.It was really hard, really.But I've enjoyed those little tiny like little forays into television.
And your next play that's been announced is Little Bear Ridge Road at Steppenwolf.And I don't know how much the sort of process of that has started yet, but what has it been like to work with Sam?You know, Hunter is a great playwright.
Extraordinary player.Let's see, he's, I mean, he just seems like one of the kindest, most thoughtful people.We did a little five-day workshop at Steppenwolf back in late October.And it's a very small play.
It takes place in Idaho, like a lot of his plays.And I'm really looking forward to it.It's almost like a little short story.There's not a lot of bells and whistles.It's a four-character play, but really a three-character play.
And his writing is exquisite.And I've just really enjoyed the process so far.
And two kind of concluding questions.One would be, are there projects that interest you either to revive or things you would want to maybe work on an adaptation of or anything like that?
Not really.I mean, I'd always wanted to do Virginia Woolf with Laurie.And so I'm I don't I don't think there's a I don't think there's a way forward with that at this point.But, you know, I love that experience.
But no, I don't I don't have like a wish list, if that's what you mean.I don't.No, no, I like to be surprised.Right.I mean, there are writers that I that I that Sam being one of them, you know, I love Annie Baker's plays.
There are people that are writing that I would always be intrigued at the idea of collaborating.But also, I think that it's also time to kind of make space for other people.I've been so fortunate and had so many opportunities.
And it's also, I feel actually OK about, creating some room for other people to have similar opportunities.And yeah, so I'm, whatever comes, I'm happy, but I'm also not, I'm not out there hustling trying to make it happen.
Right.And the last question I'd love to ask is with such a wonderful career, what advice would you give to someone just kind of starting out as a director?Well,
I always think that I find that life is surprising, and it doesn't go in a straight line.And you can have ambitions, and you can have a vision for what you want your career to be like.
But more often than not, there will be surprises and shocks and things that you never saw coming that will take you in, that will to start to define what your career is.
And the only other thing, and this is hard, and this is hard for any of us in the arts is that, you know, and I've said this before, which is, if you think about your career and your life, in the theater or in the arts.
And you think about it horizontally, which means that it's long and you're playing the long game, right?And that there'll be a series of things that happen along the way.Some will be more successful.Some will be less successful.
But to not allow yourself to be defined, to not think vertically, meaning, am I up?Am I down?Am I this and that?Am I in favor?Am I not in favor?Just know that end of your life, you can look back on the choices you've made.
And that's your career, your career is not what's happening at any given moment.That's, it's going to change.And that's always going to fluctuate unless you're Meryl Streep.
But for the most of us mere mortals, it is there's there's like a series of things that happen along the way and allow yourself to be surprised but not defined by any one thing that's happened to you.
That is great advice.Well, thank you so much for doing this.It's been an honor to talk to you.
Listeners, thank you for tuning in, and make sure to come back next time when I will be joined by Sherri Renee Scott, who has just announced her return to the New York stage as Audrey in Little Shop of Horrors.
Previously, she has appeared on Broadway in Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, The Front Page, The Little Mermaid, Aida, Rent, Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown, Grease, and The Who's Tommy. as well as Everyday Rapture, which she wrote and starred in.
She also performed off-Broadway in the last five years, Whirl Inside a Loop, Debbie Does Dallas, and Landscape of the Body.You won't want to miss that interview, so make sure to tune back in for that, and thanks for listening.
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