On this special episode, we're featuring a conversation from A Fine Mess, the new podcast from our friends at Evoke Media that was recently named a must-listen by The Guardian and Apple Podcasts.
On A Fine Mess, venture capitalist and philanthropist Sabrina Rajnaim interviews expert guests about the most thought-provoking topics of our time.On this show, understanding replaces assumptions and commonalities replace divides.
Along the way, Sabrina helps listeners learn how to better approach difficult conversations and foster tolerance and inclusivity.
In today's episode, Sabrina speaks to psychologist, author, and associate dean for faculty affairs and professional development at Boonshoft School of Medicine, Dr. Katherine Hartline, about the challenges of modern dating in 2024.
Together, they examine what the cultural expectations of relationships in media have done to our own relationships and how technology plays a role in our existing partner-related anxieties.
Listen to more episodes of A Fine Mess and follow the podcast at the link below.So without further ado, here it is, A Fine Mess.
As a culture, we're facing many nightmares, but there's one that has taken center stage in the zeitgeist and much of TikTok.
Shortking, go off.However, if you're lying about your height on your profile, when I meet you, I have many more questions.Like, what else are you lying about?
What do I have to do to get a date?If you're gonna talk to me for five hours on a dating site and then delete your profile in the morning, yeah, you're just gonna piss people off.
When it comes to dating, I do not believe in political intermarriage.Since 2012, when I was in college, I've been asking guys who they vote for before going on a first date with them.It's actually been an amazing knockout question.I'm a busy girl.
This is A Fine Mess, a show from Evoke Media where we confront the big issues we're facing right now with curiosity instead of dread.I'm your host, Sabrina Miraj-Naim.
And today we're going to have to try really, really hard to resist the dread, let me tell you.The dating stories I've heard range from absolutely hilarious to... absolutely terrifying.
And I want to be honest and say that I've been with my husband for 11 years.I've never been on a dating app, but I've had friends and family who have and I feel for them.
Other than the pure joy I get from gratuitously swiping left or right on a friend's dating app for extremely shallow reasons, I see how hard it's gotten out here.
And while the chaos of the dating world feels like something everyone can agree on, I know that the political divide has made the dating landscape even worse.I mean, It's hard enough to find someone and stay with them.
By eliminating anyone with differing political views, are we making things worse?Or is it good to be particular about what you want?
And what about those of us in relationships who are discovering maybe our partner's views don't necessarily align with our own?Or partners whose views have evolved over time?What do we do?We need some professional help.
My name is Dr. Kat Hirtlein, and I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.
Kat has a therapy practice, and she's also the Associate Dean of Faculty Affairs and Professional Development at the Boonshoft School of Medicine at Wright State University.She's written multiple books about therapy.
With an emphasis on the internet and sex, she is the perfect person to talk to us about modern dating. So give me a little bit of an overview of the kind of work that you do.
The work that I do clinically with my clients looks specifically at relationships.
I look at ways for people to be able to more effectively navigate their difficult times together in ways that are going to be more productive and helpful and less about maybe getting wrapped up in a lot of drama.
Bless you.So needed for all of us.So what percentage of your private therapy clients are couples?Probably about three quarters of my clients are couples.
When you think about your individual clients, even more specifically the younger generation, what would you say is the biggest complaint you're hearing from them?
Some of what I hear is about anxiety and depression.It seems to me that is continuing to be a prominent theme and life is not making it easy on people, right?We're living in some really challenging times.
So the anxiety and depression I think are quite high.
Another thing that I'm hearing is people are having a challenge with, I don't know if it would be social media or what it is, but they're looking at the world and they have an expectation that what they're seeing in media is something that is normal and achievable.
And they feel upset that they don't have the thing or they're not living that life.And what I would love to say is that's a fallacy.
You have an idea of the way that a relationship should be that really is not accurate, could be described as immature in some capacity.
But I'm starting to see a lot more of that where couples and individuals are looking at others and thinking that they're falling short.When really they're not.What they're looking at is an expectation that's unrealistic.
So that's another thing that I'm seeing.And perhaps that's promoting a lot of anxiety.
Yeah.And you would say the majority of that is coming from our social media echo chambers.
That's what they seem to be saying to me.Like, I saw this movie or I saw this person's Web page or I don't want my followers to think anything negative of me.Therefore, I'm going to do something different.
You've been doing this work a long time and you've been working with individuals and couples.What are you seeing as the biggest changes in romantic relationships, both for singles and for people who are partnered?
One of the biggest changes
is the way in which I think cell phones and technology have altered communication patterns and people's expectations of their partner's availability and the way in which we manage our own anxiety when we're not able to reach our partner.
One of the areas that I research is in the space of how technology affects interpersonal relationships, family, but primarily in couple spaces.
What I learned is that when people are in relationship and they reach out to their partner on a cell phone, two things happen.Number one, the way in which we're using cell phones is leading us away from being able to effectively solve our problems.
And then the second thing I learned was that the anxiety that we get from not being able to access our partner really comes to a place where it accelerates quickly to the point where people start to really spin out of control and let the anxiety take hold.
And we're really not able to manage our anxiety in a way that maybe we used to 10 or 15 years ago.We don't think we have to manage the anxiety because we're busy trying to find out where our partner is or whether they saw our message.
Yeah.How much of that is between partners and how much of that are you seeing with people who are even out there in the world dating and get, you know, the whole, we have new terminology being ghosted and stuff like that.
It feels like it's rewiring young people's brains in some capacity, right?It is.
I think they're developing a sense of, again, an unrealistic sense of people's availability.
So, for example, when we're sending a text, our impression is that text is asynchronous communication because someone could reasonably pick up their phone and write us back right away in real time.
But the truth is that's asynchronous communication, and we're very confused about it.And so a lot of couples had issues with this kind of texting because they expect their partner to be available.
When the partner is not available and doesn't respond to their text, that's when someone starts spinning out.Did they see the message?Is it deliberate?Are they ignoring me?Are they ghosting me?What did I say?What did I do?
Then they jump on Facebook or whatever social media and they try to figure out where the partner is and whether they're talking to people, but just not talking to them.And then they find that they may have been active, but didn't answer them.
And now they're angry. So when I was doing this research, I started asking participants, like, well, how long does this take before you're like at the point where you're just like done and over with the anxieties too much?And they said two hours.
I thought, that's it?I kept hearing that consistently.And we're spending a lot of that energy checking, right, and trying to figure out where people are, whether we were ghosted, etc.
For better or worse, if you've ever analyzed the last text you sent someone or sent a screenshot to your friends for analysis, you're not alone.This is a data point that really stayed with me because it applies to more than just dating.
Our expectations for work emails or texts to friends don't always align with what's possible.And there's much less context than in-person communication.So we're often left by ourselves, wondering if we said something wrong and waiting for a response.
What are some of the kind of external, social, and cultural factors that you're seeing putting additional pressure on those romantic relationships?
Some of it has to do with the people with whom we surround ourselves.
For example, in romantic relationships, if you're a woman and you have a group of female friends, the rules and permissions around what boundaries are in a relationship for you might change in favor of what the norms of those group are.
So for example, one of the things that's becoming really common is to check your partner's phone to see where they are, if they're talking to anyone, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
When I was doing my research, I discovered that it was very common culturally for certain groups to say, yes, that's a thing to do, and it's widely known in our culture that people check phones.
For other cultures, it was, well, we're not supposed to do it, but we do it anyway. And then for other cultures, it was it's not permitted in this culture, but it's permitted around the group of people with whom I surround myself.
So we all do it, but we know you shouldn't do it.And when they would report that to me, it was this consistent reporting of, no, that's not OK to do.And then a whisper of, but I've done it and we do it and we all know we do it.
And my friend said to do it.And that's going to breed suspicion and all sorts of things.Like if you have to be in a relationship where you're checking their phone, what's the point?
What's the point?So I want to talk a little bit more now about the challenges of dating in a very politically complicated time.
Politics really have changed drastically over the past decade, and studies have shown that young women are becoming increasingly more liberal.
Young men maybe are moving in the other direction and that progressive women are less likely to date across the aisle. And I'm curious to know if that data is reflected in what you're seeing in your practice.
I think it is reflected in that way.There have been challenges with couples that related to politics that I did not expect for couples that had even been together a long period of time.
Now, the differences that they had politically are becoming more and more complicated or have more and more of an impact on their day to day than I'd seen before.
Why is that shifting?I mean, you're saying even for couples that have been together for a long time that it's seemingly a new pressure point for them.Why do you think that is?
At some point, the political divide has gotten to the place, I think, where there's maybe a lot of blame assigned or there's some internalization of, if you believe this, then this is very much tied to your value system.
And I don't know that that was the case before.I think it was just, yes, we understand politically where we are. but your value as a human is different, our connection is different.
Now what's happened is when you're taking a political side or position, somehow that gets internalized to who you are as a person and what your values are.
And that inherently means that your values are not the same as my values, and therefore this cannot work, or therefore we're incompatible, or therefore drama will be created because we can no longer approach problem solving in the same way.
Yeah, yeah.I'm hearing all kinds of stories about in dating apps, how young people like immediately say, if you vote for this political party, like don't even bother.
One of the things that I struggle with today is that it seems like we've become in some ways more radical about our political and social values, that we're willing to burn down everything around us, everything in our lives in protest.
I feel like that's misguided in many ways.And I'm curious to know what that means for our relationships and how we can find our way back to a place of balance and respect for diversity of thought.
I think it's a great question.For me, again, it comes back to the attribution of what it means to be on a particular side or with a particular decision that you believe there's an attribution of value.
And then what does that mean for the relationship?Well, Does it mean that we have an issue of perceived neglect or perceived lack of control?
Does it mean that when you take this position, you're not attending to me, you're not attending to my needs, or is it now I have an issue because if you took this position, you are endorsing a position that takes me out of a place of control?
When any couple has a problem, It really can be boiled down to one of those two things.And frankly, in the couples that I see, it's often one person believes what's going on is associated with perceived neglect.
The other person believes it's out of perceived lack of control, right?They don't feel like they're in control.
And if you can identify it, then we can start to make progress on how to resolve it in a way that doesn't change people's political perspective, but gets to the point and the heart of the issue, which is the neglect and perceived lack of control.
Can you give a more specific example of perceived neglect versus perceived lack of control?How politics fit into that dichotomy? Sure.
So when we think about maybe differences among who you would vote, for example, if there are a couple different options and a couple is divided on that, one partner might say, well, you are endorsing a candidate who is so antithetical to me.
It means that you don't know who I am as a person.You don't know me at all.I don't feel valued.I don't feel seen.I don't feel respected.
On the other hand, the other person might say, well, listen, I'm trying to exercise my choice, and I'm not the same as you.And the fact that you're criticizing me for this means that you are trying to control me, and I don't appreciate that.
You've mentioned your continued surprise at people's ability to defend their perceptions against the truth at all costs.The truth is feeling increasingly more fuzzy these days.
Our own news, our social media echo chambers, we only see what we want to see.We only see what we believe reflected back at us.We're all convinced that we know the truth and everyone else is full of shit.
Are you seeing that reflected in your counseling?
I see that reflected in my counseling and also the other piece of that is we're really defending ourselves from the truth of what we feel.When you have an ego defense mechanism, it's a normal thing, right?It's developed as a way to
manage or deal with internal conflict in ourselves.And when that conflict is too large to manage, that's when you see the ego defense because it's just like, okay, well, I can't deal with this.I don't know how to resolve this conflict internally.
So I've got to have this thing in place so I can defend myself.So I don't have to feel the feeling so I don't have to make a choice. So I don't have to experience that level of anxiety.
When you're involved in the sense of like politics or something that is very high stakes now, then that ability to defend yourself from seeing the truth is even higher.
People might enact different defenses, but it's going to be coming from that same place.It's going to be coming from, I don't want to feel the anxiety or the decision I would have to make.Let's say I discovered that
My partner was really on a different side of the political spectrum.And if that was really true, I would have to end this.Well, I don't want to end this because I'm getting too much benefit from it.
So I'm going to defend myself from the truth so I can keep living the way that I'm living.That is what is so comforting about a lot of the echo chambers.You don't have to confront that anxiety.You don't have to deal with it.
And like I mentioned earlier, we are getting really bad dealing with anxiety.We just have enough escape mechanisms to be able to not manage it.
Yeah, something you just said that really resonates for me is the comfort zone.
It feels increasingly like everything that we are doing, all of the technology that we surround ourselves with, are in order to be more comfortable physically and psychologically and emotionally.
And I'm wondering how that's going to continue to put pressure on relationships when relationships are inherently anxiety provoking at different times and you need to be able to deal with that.You can't just run away.
Like, what are we going to do when we no longer have the tools to deal with the normal anxieties of day to day life and relationships?
I think that is precisely what is happening with some of the younger people who are coming in and saying, gee, I want that life online and my partnership isn't it or my family life isn't it.So therefore, there must be something wrong here.
And I'm going to keep looking for that magical thing.And that is a fallacy.I think we are setting ourselves up for an inability to be able to problem solve. So my message would be, think about what's going on.What are some ways to solve the problem?
Certainly leaving a relationship, ghosting someone, looking for something different, staying in an echo chamber.That is one way to solve the problem.Are there others?So continue to work on people's capacity to be able to problem solve without drama.
is what's going to help people to be able to mature and be the partner that they know they can be or that they have the potential to be, which is invariably going to make whatever partnership they take on or engage with a better partnership overall.
They're going to be with people who are not waiting for their potential to be developed, but who are at their full potential because you're at your full potential.
How do you guide your single clients who are looking for relationships and are maybe hesitant to, I say date across the aisle, but really hesitant to even have conversations with folks that may have different ideas, values, you know, politics in them?
One of the things we talk about is the assumption of good intent.
If you are operating from a place where you're expecting to sort of get beat up or you're approaching a new relationship with a level of suspicion, guardedness around you, it's going to not work out long term because you're going to be setting up that kind of attitude and approach to dictate the rest of the relationship.
So I would say really starting with an open mind and what I tell them, starting with the assumption of good intent.
Assume that someone who is also aware that you're coming from a different space may not be holding that against you or may also be interpreting things with you, trying to be open-ended.
If it's different for you, that means it's different for them too.And they probably adopted this assumption of good intent.So that would be one thing.Second thing would be the assumption of the belief of communication.
And what that means is when we get into these patterns where someone's from a different political perspective and other patterns as well, I decide that, well, I can't talk to this person about this topic in this way because I know what's going to happen.
I know that when I say this, they're going to respond this way and then I'm going to respond this way.So there's no point in having the conversation.
And I would say you've really got to challenge that perspective so that you can actually develop a sense of curiosity about what someone is saying and make sure that you're challenging that belief so you can have more productive conversations.
Then a third thing I would say I talk with clients about is being curious.So when someone says something that maybe seems a little bit inconsistent with what you might believe or incongruent with your own system, Ask a little bit more about it.
Tell me more about.And you might get to the place where the two of you are really coming from the same value, but it's expressed differently.
I want to change the name of this podcast to The Assumption of Good Intent. I feel like at a time when we all think that we know exactly what's right, what's wrong.If you say one thing, I'm going to cancel you.
If you believe this, then you're whatever the labels are that we just kind of are so flippant about.We're so willy nilly throwing around.
The fact that we lack the assumption of good intent, the curiosity, that belief that most people are inherently good and have a desire to, I hope, challenge their own beliefs and assumptions.
I want to be able to have conversations with individuals about diverse and complex topics. where they might not agree with me on everything and that's okay, right?
We can have civil discourse about a variety, a whole range of topics that might challenge my perceptions and I'll learn something, right?And if I challenge your perceptions, you might learn something.
But if we can't even get to the starting off point because one thing that you represent means that I will cancel.I won't even have a conversation with you.How limiting.What a shame.It's very limiting.
It's very.And my son is 16 and he said something very similar to me.He was like, Mom, you don't understand.I've posted something that somebody doesn't like.They're never going to speak to me. And I couldn't solve that problem for him.
I thought to myself, he's right.He's right.I don't know how to do that.Right.But I can just teach him to try to solve the problem.
Yeah.And at such a young age.Right.It's already setting them up.Oh, 16 years old.He's not even like properly dating out there in the world.
It's a lot of pressure.Another issue, and my son didn't say this exactly, but there's an archivability.You can't make a mistake now without it being archived, pulled up later, screenshot, sent to someone.
So that is a really tough environment for young people to make mistakes in because you can't without a significant consequence.And that's a really challenging way to learn about a relationship.You can't make mistakes.
The Assumption of Good Intent is still, in my mind, the other title for this show.It's rare to encounter people who have this assumption now, especially online.And it does make it a more scary world to grow up in.
I have three little kids who have yet to ask me for phones, but you better believe that I'm thinking about it all the time.What will their online lives look like?How will it affect their relationships, their communication, their mental health?
When you have couples come to you and they're fighting over politics, what's the first step you take with them?I mean, you've mentioned the three things.
So the first thing we talk about is let's get curious about motivation.What would motivate your partner of 10 years to say the things that they're saying or to endorse this position?What would motivate them to do that?
And if they say something like they're trying to drive me nuts, I say, well, that's ridiculous. What you're telling me is you married someone to try to drive you nuts.That seems pretty stupid.
And I know you're not a stupid person, so that can't be the answer.What would be their motivation for doing this, saying this, or taking this perspective?And ultimately, we get down to something like caring, compassion, or fear.
And then I say, great.And then I turn to the other person.Now, what do you think would be their motivation for their perspective?And invariably, we peel it down to the same thing.Oh, OK.
So you're both feeling like you're in a place of being afraid of what the implications will be if one person's elected over another.And so that's why you've decided to take this perspective or if an issue is endorsed over another.
So you're both operating from fear.It's just that it's manifesting differently. Good news.The two of you are still on the same page.It just looks messy.
So now I've got a way to unify the couple and then we can talk about, are there different ways to manage that fear or talk about it or express it in ways that will bring the two of you closer instead of pushing you further away?
What are the options that we have?And they might say, we have no options.And I say again, ridiculous. And then they say it's about communication.And I say, well, if it was, then you would be working with someone who majored in communication studies.
So that isn't true.You went to therapy.So there's something else that's going on.You know it.I know it.Whatever.Otherwise, you'd get a book and look it up online.But you didn't.So here you are.Right.So really trying to get them to go now.Come on now.
Stop with the nonsense.And, you know, let's really connect in a different way.
First of all, I love how you don't mince words and that you call people out on their nonsense. We need more of that.Like, we're all pussyfooting around each other a little too much.
I'm going to give a very personal example and I would love to hear your response and feel free to call me out on my bullshit.In 2016, there was an election.There was someone who was elected as president.I viscerally felt attacked to my core.
Like when Trump became the president and the way that he speaks about women, the way like, let's just cut away all of the other things for a second and talk about this one thing, the way he speaks about women, the way he treats women.
I felt like if my husband endorsed this person, which he didn't, but like, let's just say, then you are disrespecting me as a woman.OK, you don't believe that the things that would create equality for me are important.
You are undercutting my forward progression.You don't care about me at all.
And I heard that last phrase of you don't care about me at all.And I go right to perceive neglect.OK, so let's back up a minute.
So you said that if this candidate is endorsed, your husband, it means that your husband believes all these things about you.
What are some other ways that your husband has shown he does not believe those about you, or what are some ways that he does?So for example, maybe he didn't pick up the kids the other day.
So that would go into the, he really does believe this about me.Okay.What are some other things that would lend into that category or things that would lead you away from that?
So first we do a little bit of like child like if that's really true you would see it in other spaces if that's really true.
And it wouldn't be right so we would find all sorts of examples and i'm sure husband would say what about all these things and that's what i really you know i've done this is ok.
Alright so clearly he thinks he's coming from a place of supporting you and your value. What are some other things that you think would be important for you?Let's say he does endorse this candidate.
What else would you need to see to felt like your husband did see you and did care about you?What are the action steps moving forward that he could reasonably do?Or is this a deal breaker for you?
It's entirely possible it might be, and that's for you to say and not for me to say.It's fine.If it's a deal breaker, it's fine.But if it is, we sort of need to know that, right?
So challenging what that evidence is, talking about the ways in which you could feel cared about outside of that, and largely the ways that you would have.
And then even more sinister, I would ask your husband about, well, tell me about as you're making this decision. What about this decision is actually supportive of caring about Sabrina?
And he might say, well, I'm afraid that, you know, there's not going to be retirement set up or this set up.
So that's actually what is driving my decision is actually the meaning behind it and my love and care for my wife that actually is causing it, not the opposite.
So again, getting him to get to the place of assuming that his intentions are good and tapping into what his motivation might be for making that decision to show you that it is a meaningful decision.
So the outcome is independent of what he really feels and who he really is to you.
Not done in an hour, right?
It's not an hour.It's not two weeks.
It isn't two weeks.And a lot of that is also the balancing.So I'm not a therapist that splits the time 50 50.I don't care about that.What I do is say things like, OK, today we're going to hone in on you.
And then the other one, I might say, now, wait a minute, don't get too happy next week.It's your turn.And then we kind of trade spots.So there's balance and equity, but it's not this 50 50 artificial conversation.We do the work that we need to do.
all while promoting the sense of hope.
From your perspective, is this era in history particularly challenging for couples, or are we just feeling it more acutely because we're living it?
I feel like, just to give more context to that question, for a lot of issues, we all feel like this is the hardest, the worst time, it's never been harder than what we're dealing with right now.
I think technology certainly adds a layer of challenge and complexity, but we also have a tendency of thinking that we're living the worst of everything.And it's like, because you weren't there 50 years ago, 100 years ago, whatever.
I'm curious from your perspective, is it particularly challenging now or do we just need to read up on history a little bit more?
My observation has been clients are very pulled lots of different directions.At least in our environment here in America, there's a lot to attend to.There's a lot going on and it compromises a couple's ability to be able to even spend time together.
Lots of times it's the hour they get a week with me is the time that they've seen each other the most.So in my view, I actually think it has become harder over time for
couples to be able to maintain these skills or manage their anxiety because we're spread so thin as a society and as a culture.
Okay, fair.We're in the midst of a pretty challenging election year.What are some preemptive steps that couples can take to avoid issues?
I think the first piece would be to talk early and often.So you might even start the conversation with, gee, this is going to be a pretty tough election cycle coming up.
What do you think are some of the issues that we could talk about or that we should have on our minds as it moves forward?I think that's a really general way to not point a finger and say, hey, are you taking a certain perspective on certain issues?
You better not vote for this one.
Right.Exactly.So that would be one thing.A second thing would be thinking less about being heard and more about the listening piece.
So if someone were to say something, your partner were to say something, make a comment on they hear a commercial or they respond in some way. Start with, instead of shying away from that conversation thinking, this is awkward.
Start with, tell me a little bit more about, I didn't, you said this in response to the commercial.Tell me a little bit about what you meant by that.And not in like a nasty way, but in like a, oh, you made this comment.
I just, I want to make sure I understood you. Because then it shows your partner that you're listening to them, you're attending to them, you're tuned to their emotional reaction, right?That becomes really important.
So now we're building a space where we can move toward being vulnerable and having these emotional or personal exchanges without fear of retribution from our partner.
This was the perfect note to end on as it's true to the mission of our show.Kat believes we should approach conflict with curiosity and a genuine desire to learn what's fueling our partner's views.
Also, she mentioned the importance of truly listening, themes that both showed up in our conversation with Matt Abrahams in the first episode.
It's important for all of us to have people in our lives with whom we can be vulnerable without worrying about the consequences.If you're in a relationship, this is especially true.
As we continue to wade through one of the most confusing emotional years of our time, I hope that this acknowledgement of the difficulties, along with the need to stay open and curious, stay with you.
And don't forget to keep your presumption of good intent alive and well. On the next episode of A Fine Mess, we're tackling artificial intelligence with Jason Pfeiffer and Meredith Broussard.
Here's what AI is.AI is a microwave.It is a microwave oven.It's what it is.And what does that mean?Here's what it means.A microwave oven is incredible technology. Mind-blowing technology.
But just because we have this incredible technology in our kitchen, does that mean that we make every single thing in the microwave?No, we don't.
I'm Sabrina Miraj-Naim, the host and executive producer of A Fine Mess.Special thanks to my guest, Kat Hurtlein.This episode was produced by Evoke Media, Jamie Newton, and The Podglomerate.Marketing by The Podglomerate.
You can learn more about Evoke Media by visiting weareevokemedia.com.You can listen to A Fine Mess on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, it's Amalia.If you enjoyed the episode and want to hear more fascinating conversations about authors like this one, follow A Fine Mess on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite listening app.Tell them we sent you.
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