Hello, as she said, I'm Leanne Sharp, and I'm here to introduce Frank Herbert.But before we do that, we have a couple of announcements we have to do in conjunction for Engineers Week.
A year after the release of Chapterhouse Dune, Frank Herbert was invited to speak to a group of engineering students at UCLA.He was there to speak on a very on-brand topic.
That's it for the announcements for Engineers Week.And I'd like to introduce Frank Herbert.He's written many books, 27 in all, probably most familiar with the Dune Series.
He's also written things like The Eyes of Heisenberg, The White Plague, Worlds of Frank Herbert, and his newest book, Chapter House One.He currently resides in the Olympian Peninsula in Washington and has a winter home in Hawaii.
And today what we'll be talking about is mythology of futurism.
During the next thirty or so minutes, Frank speaks on much more than just the mythology of Futurism, covering everything from his inspirations for writing Dune to the flaws of scientific thinking.
I'm going to declare a heresy for you.All science goes back to something that we believe because we believe it.And we have no proof for it.It's like a religion.
But as we increase what we think we know, we increase our exposure to what we do not know.This is one of the inevitable laws of our universe.But isn't it more interesting to live in a universe where there are unknowns to discover?
After his speech, there's a Q&A portion.One of the students takes the mic and begins their question with a bit of flattery.Mr. Herbert, I'm on your right.Okay.Over there?
Yeah.As a major author of great creativity and insight, you have gained the respect of millions. Yet.
Gee, watch out for my head.It's coming up like a balloon.But the balloon is quickly popped as the student gets to the heart of their question.
The topic clearly flusters Frank, who interrupts multiple times and begins answering before the student finishes speaking.
I think it's going to go down in a sec.Yet you have chosen to cast token gay characters in a negative light.
The images that you present in your popular work, Dune, and its movie specifically can only promote... I didn't do the movie, you understand that....can only promote bigotry and violence against lesbians and gay men.
Of course, what I was doing with the gay population there, I was only saying one thing.I was saying that homosexuality is a natural occurrence in our society. In your teens, you're naturally this way.
After Frank's response, the student chimes in again.
Well, I hope that in the future, that you portray in any books that you do write in the future, do in fact responsibly represent lesbians and gays in a manner consistent with your non-lesbian, non-gay characters.
And that's where the entire interaction could have ended.But Frank keeps responding, and says one of the most damning things about homosexuality that he's ever said on the record.
It causes a stir in the crowd and leads to this awkward silence in the room.
Another thing I was saying is that gays have opted to not continue the species.
The moment gets even more tense as the student angrily responds.And it sounds like the microphone is taken from them.
orientation is a natural part of ourselves.I didn't choose to be gay.I just am gay.
Of course.That's what I'm saying.A person doesn't choose.It happens.But it happens for a lot of reasons.Sometimes it happens for psychological reasons.
Secondly, I happen to know many gay people being openly gay.Gay people are not afraid to be open with me.And most gay people have nothing against children.Most gay people even want their own children.So what you just said
Well, it's a little hard to hear this part, but the student is saying that most gay people have nothing against children.And the student says that they even know gay people who want children.And then Frank cuts in again.
Well, it's a lot more difficult.That is going to be a sensation.
On your left, I'd like to thank you for the enjoyment you've given me.
That's where the interaction ends, and the mic is handed to the next student for another question.The conversation continues.But that is a really tough moment for Frank, who does not come off in a positive light.
For today's episode, we examined hours of records like this UCLA tape to try and understand the story of Dune through the mind of its creator, and to find enlightening and uncomfortable moments like this one.
We do a lot of fun speculating and interpretation on this show about Frank Herbert's iconic universe.But today, we're doing something different.We're hearing from the man himself, in his own words, what Dune is about.
Welcome to Interviews with Frank Herbert.
Welcome to Gamja Bar, your guide to the iconic world of Dune.We'll be exploring the themes, philosophies, and characters found in the sandy depths of this vast universe, from Frank Herbert's groundbreaking novels to the adaptations on film and TV.
My name's Aboop.My name's Leo.And folks, you asked and we answered. We got a ton.Very slowly.It takes a long time to make one of these episodes, but we got a ton of positive feedback about interviews with Frank Herbert.
The first episode that we released exploring the public tapes and magazine interviews and TV interviews that Frank Herbert did during his lifetime.And so we are back today. to continue that series and explore more of what we dug into.
We mentioned in the last episode, we did a ton of research.Not everything was crammed into that first episode, of course.There's still so much more to talk about.And so we're going to be unpacking more of that today, as you heard in the cold open.
Indeed.There's probably, honestly, a third episode going to happen at some point, for sure. Oh, yeah.Before we get too far into it, though, let's take care of our housekeeping.And first up, spoiler warning.
Today's episode will contain spoilers through God Emperor of Dune.So as long as you are up to date on our book club episodes, you are good to go.You're safe to listen.
That's right.And of course, at the top of the show, a huge shout out to our Kwisatz Haderach level patrons, Case Aiken, Daniel Dion, Roman Caballo, Jonathan Lambert, and C.R.Spruill.My goodness.We are so grateful for your support.
We mentioned it in the last interviews with Frank Herbert episode, but we only have the time.
and space to do this kind of episode and to skip a week here and there to give ourselves research time because we know we have patron support, because we know the bills are going to get paid.So we thank you from the bottom of our hearts.
And it's because of you, we get to release episodes like this one.
Indeed.Thank you so much.And if you out there in public listening land, uh, want to join up and help out, if you like this kind of stuff, absolutely.Consider becoming a patron.
Alright, so, today's episode.We, just like before, dug through literal hours of interviews with Frank Herbert.We are today going to be honing in on a few different things that came up as we continued to learn about him
And in particular, we're going to be talking about Frank's deeply problematic and really genuinely hurtful answers that he gave at the UCLA talk in 1985.So this is all basically his most homophobic takes, which is... going to be a blast.
And then once we've dug into that conversation, we're going to wrap up by looking at some insights of Frank as an author.So some of some interesting things about him as a writer, which is very interesting to me as well.
That's right.So today is going to be a dense one, folks.Buckle up, get some water, hydrate.Yeah.We'll be back after a short break to dive into more interviews with Frank Herbert.
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Welcome back everybody.Hope you enjoyed your break.Hope you buckled up both the across the lap buckle and across the shoulder buckle.Let's talk about the UCLA talk that Frank gave in 1985.Yeah.
Because as we shared in the cold open, there are some problematic bits worth examining more closely.And we want to share more of Frank's response to the student's question and kind of break it down bit by bit.
Okay, so let's hear from Frank Herbert.Again, you heard some of this already in the cold open sequence, but we're gonna share the full tape.
So, beginning right off the bat, there's Frank's obvious defensiveness when this student stands up and it becomes clear to Frank what this question is about.
Yet you have chosen to cast token gay characters in a negative light. The images that you present in your popular work Dune and its movie specifically can only promote- I didn't do the movie, you understand that.
Can only promote bigotry and violence against lesbians and gay men and silence.
Yeah, okay.So, Frank immediately being like, well, the movie wasn't me.You understand, I didn't, well, that wasn't, uh, I, it's like, Come on, Frank, you're the IP holder.
I OK, listen, I know Frank didn't direct the David Lynch movie, but he holds the IP right.And I'm sure he could have stepped in if he objected to vehemently to what was being done in the moment.Right.
It's just, it's a bad look to be so like, well, I didn't do that.That's not, just listen, Frank.Just take a beat, listen to what the dude's saying.Oh, bad look.
Absolutely.It's the interruptions before the student even finishes their question. that makes me go, oh, okay, Frank, are you feeling a little touchy about this?
The softest interpretation is that he's annoyed or feels unprepared for this question, so he kind of panics and gets flustered.
And that, at least from this opening here where he jumps in, gets defensive about the movie, that part, at least to me, is pretty clear that he's quite flustered.
Yeah.Or it feels like what, like another possibility, right?Is maybe he wrote these things and now he knows that it's a bad take.He knows it's a bad look.So he's immediately on the defensive.
He's just like, Whoa, let's damage control before you even finish what you're saying.
I know this is like the worst, the worst feels like it's certainly not the first time he's heard this criticism, especially this late in his career, you know?
Yeah, this is 20 years after Dune was published.Now, from there, Frank is sort of explaining the choice to make a character in his book gay, and talking a little bit about homosexuality.
And in some ways, for the 1950s, this is not the worst thing I've heard from the 1950s.He says some people engage in homosexual stuff when they're young, and then they grow out of it,
some people, you know, do gay stuff when they're young, and then they're gay, and it's natural, and they don't grow out of it, it's just their life.
But while that is, yeah, technically true, you know, there are people who identify as straight, who've done things that are not straight, it still very much reeks of the problematic, like, you'll grow out of it, or it's just a phase, like, take that people have today, which is,
really tough.So here's Frank doing his best to explain, I guess.
What I was doing with the gay population there, I was only saying one thing.I was saying that that homosexuality is a natural occurrence in our society.In your teens, you're naturally this way.And some people are beyond.
And primitive societies have dealt with it in a different way than our society deals with it.
Ooh, yeah.And that's a bit more than we played in the cold open there.You get to hear his full response there to the student.This is tough.I mean,
I agree with you that this through the lens of like a 1950s, early 60s perspective, this can be seen as quite progressive.He says homosexuality is a natural occurrence.I think even that for those decades is a pretty radical idea.
at the same time, this is 1985 in which he is saying this.It's like, you know, like to measure something he says in 85 by like a 50s perspective sitting now in 2024 is like, it's tough.
And I think it's, this part is very difficult for me to hear because it's a bad answer.It's a problematic answer.I would wager even by 85 standards.
this idea that shrug homosexuality does exist, sure, it's fine, but it's just a phase, it's just a thing kids do, it's just a thing an adolescent mind does, and that they will naturally grow out of it and quote-unquote go back to normal, most people, and some people don't.
That is a deeply problematic and hurtful statement to the LGBTQ community.Anyone who is a part of that community knows this is just a natural part of who you are and how you identify, and there's no growing in or out of anything.
This is just who you are.And if we even kind of translate this idea to a modern lens, This reeks of a lot of the anti-trans arguments that you hear out there from conservative circles, right?Like, this is just a phase.
Oh, how can you really know whether you want to transition as a kid?You'll grow out of this.You'll just realize you're a man once you grow up. We can't take like teenagers seriously.They're just following trends.It's just a phase.
It's a cool thing to do to be trans right now.Those are all like shitty, awful arguments against, you know, offering reproductive support for trans kids.Frank's answer here echoes to me a lot of that sentiment as well.
Well, you know, kids can be gay and stuff and do gay stuff, whatever, but maybe they'll grow out of it is a really rough answer.
Yeah, I completely agree.And it's true.If he's trying to explain where he was coming from in the 1960s when he wrote Dune, he failed at making that distinction clear.And realistically, as you said, it's 1985 at this point.
So I looked into it because I knew that at some point... Yeah, this is great research from you.
Yeah, homosexuality was considered a mental disorder for a long fucking time.
And I was a little shocked to find out that the American Psychiatric Association still classified homosexuality as a mental disorder, as a diagnosable mental disorder until 1972.
Damn, it was only in 1973 due to people like John Fryer, who was a psychiatrist who was secretly gay.He at a meeting basically masked, came out and exposed that he is a practicing psychiatrist and also gay.And everyone was like, Oh, you can do that.
It was this insane thing.Like if you look up Dr. John Fryer's life, it's wild.And he was actually fired from a government position for being gay in the like 70s, in the 60s or 70s.
So all of this being said, we know Frank is someone who does a crazy amount of research.It is possible Frank spoke to medical professionals in the 60s and 50s
And they were like, Oh, yeah, it's a mental disorder, just like sadomasochism, just like the accepted diagnosis at the time.
Yeah, that was literally if you looked up what the American Psychiatric Association said, and that the one of the biggest organizations of psychiatrists in the world, it was a mental disorder until 73.That being said, This is 15 years later.
This is 12 years after that diagnosis changed the times had changed there were already social activists people sharing their perspectives and clearly Frank wasn't hearing them or paying attention to them or taking them in or taking them seriously because again his answer sounds like someone with good intentions maybe again saying it's natural or
actually puts him on the more extreme side of the 1972 decision to declassify it as a mental disorder.But that's like 1972, Frank.This is 12 years later. Guy, come on.
And again, to put it in context, God Emperor of Dune has already come out by this point.He just released Chapter House the year before this UCLA speech.
So these ideas have been out there and percolating for a long time and he has written about them in his stories through the words of Moneo and Leto too and Duncan.
Presumably did more research too.
One would hope, but clearly got the research wrong or was extremely biased by his own views on it. And it's a tough look.
This is really great context to know like, okay, when he would have written Dune back in the 60s, you know, late 50s, early 60s, Dune, Dune Messiah, like there was a different accepted medical view of homosexuality regardless of what the like popular social context was.
But by the time we get to this UCLA interview, by the time we get to the publications of the latter books that do have more problematic sort of
homosexual themes in them and ideas in them, Frank didn't really have an excuse not to have done more research and enlightened himself further.
That, I think, gives some of our perspective on that piece of his response.Let's look at the next part, which we also didn't share in the cold open because it's super long and windy, but Frank continues his response.
Yes. And lots of times we create the aberrant gay, and there are aberrant gays just as there are aberrant other individuals, by our social reactions to them.And I just gave you an aberrant gay in the Dune books.
But what I was also saying to you was that sadomasochism sometimes is a part of this.I can give you chapter and verse on that.
And that gays have a hard, a much harder problem coming out of the social pressures than the rest of us do in many instances.But I didn't have anything else in mind for this.That was what I was doing.
Okay.Again, Frank, buddy, pal, you're missing the point, dude.
Like digging, digging the grave a little further here.
Yeah, dig in that hole.Frank, is this how you respond to Beverly when she's like, you didn't take out the trash?And he's like, well, actually, it's like, come on, dude.And like the only gay character in your book's a crazy villain.
Like this, again, to me, very much reeks of the APA's outdated classification.And he's like, yeah, sure.Someone with one mental disorder might have others.That's all I'm talking about.Fucking guy.It's so. This is a t-ball.
Just knock it out of the park.I'm sorry, I'll do better.I understand, I've heard you.It's so easy, Frank.
Yeah.And this, again, very much reeks of homophobic ideas.The part that sticks out to me and is like a big yikes moment is him saying, well, sadomasochism is sometimes a part of being gay or like a part of homosexual ideation.
And it shows this very clear ignorance and bias on Frank's part.Again, for me, only speaking about my opinion here, verging on bigotry and homophobia because one does wonder, in Frank's mind, does sadomasochism
come into play when he thinks about his cisgender straight characters or colleagues or people, friends, you know?Like sexual pleasure is equal across the board for people.
And to say like this particular group of people leans into this thing more, again, just continues to show, is it hatred on Frank's part?Of course not, you know?Like he's not outright attacking
gay people, but it is showing a deep ignorance and a deep misunderstanding and a lot of preconceived notions and biases about a certain type of person, which then bleeds through in his books, right?
He didn't go, oh, I'm gonna make the gay character so awful, because gay people are so awful.But in his mind, he kind of just naturally, instinctually, subconsciously
connects sadomasochistic ideas with gay people, so he just kind of wrote about that.
We talked about this during our God Emperor book clubs, but there is a difference between being openly hateful and bigoted and racist or sexist, and then there's just the things you do because of the environment you grew up in or how you were taught or the community that you're involved in.
that you don't realize are just like unintentionally hurtful.And that takes a lot of learning and education and is like a lifelong journey for most people to unlearn some of those perspectives on life.
And I think like Frank is a little stuck in his perspective on homosexuality here.
Yeah and this is this is both where like the world has gotten better in many ways and also worse where we have like I can right now go online and find perspectives from anyone in the world with a different experience than my own and like that might not be as accessible to someone in the 1970s.
Nevertheless in the 70s and 80s there were activists sharing their experiences and sharing their stories We know Frank for at least God Emperor of Dune dug into like Japanese no theater and shit like that and you didn't have the time to also look up like additional stories about homosexuality and you know
And to be clear, he had a son who was gay and was involved in gay activist circles.So these conversations were happening very close to Frank's own life and family.
It's not like he was totally siloed off from this world and so had the excuse of just being like, well, I don't know, I don't have any gay friends, I don't have anyone to talk to about this.This was very much in his sphere.
Yeah, that's absolutely that's a great point.And I also I it just it just feels like he made a monolith of like, the gays.
And that's a great way to put it.Yeah.
And it gets worse.Before we can before it gets better.So let's let's it gets better when it ends.But it gets worse. This is probably the worst part in my, I don't know, maybe it's not worth comparing, but this feels rough.
Let's hear what Frank says about the gays and continuing the human species.
Well, I hope that in the future that you portray in any books that you do write in the future do in fact responsibly represent lesbians and gays in a manner consistent with your non-lesbian, non-gay characters.
Well, another thing I was saying is that gays have opted to not continue the species.
Now, yeah, it's a choice anybody can make.I made that choice with my new lady because there are enough of us already.I mean, I didn't, I had three children and a 35 year marriage and my wife died.I thought that was the end of it, but it wasn't.
His response is somehow even a little worse.
That's so rough.It's like the idea that gay people have opted that it has anything to do with choice is just so fucking frustrating.And for sure, you can hear in the full response, you can hear how it frustrates the person asking the question.
Oh yeah.Like, good Lord, Frank.I kind of, I get the impression he, you know, everyone laughs, or there's this kind of uncomfortable laughter in the room.And it's this sort of like beat.
It did remind me of like Alan Watts talks where Alan Watts will say something very sarcastic and dry and pithy.And everyone kind of chuckles at it.And he chuckles and then he resumes what he was actually talking about.And, and
but it just is so bad it just doesn't land at all doesn't communicate at all what he maybe intended to or maybe he did intend to say exactly this and that sucks but i think but the fact that he backpedals and says like oh i've made that oh i i've made sorry i've made that choice
with my new lady, because there's enough of us already.I mean, I didn't, I had three children and it's like he's floundering.He's panicking.He said, I think he, and again, this is just my opinion.
I feel like Frank knows he fucked up by saying it that way and is trying to save face by saying me as a heterosexual man has made a similar decision Still you've painted a monolith of the gay community.
You've said the gays which is not a great way to start period Have opted not to continue the species is fucking period It's And in case you were curious, that's just true, he says, which is also not just true.
As it turns out, I have a, one of my best friends is, uh, has two mothers and they threw a sperm donor, uh, of a relative of the other mother that had a child because they wanted to have a child who was biologically related to both mothers.
And this was in the, now my friend was born in 1990. But still, the technology fucking existed in the mid-80s for, through sperm donorship or through whatever, to have surrogacy, lots of options.The point is, this shit was possible.
So the idea of like, the gays. have opted not to continue the species is actually wrong.It is a bad take.It is super hurtful.It is also factually wrong.So Frank clearly fell off of his deep research.He's a deeply curious guy.Are you, Frank?
It's a very tough look.And I think, again, I keep repeating myself here, but it speaks to his ignorance on this topic.It speaks to his extreme bias on this topic and his discomfort with it.
Whether or not you consider that homophobia is up to you where that line is, but this is like a classic case of, oh, well, you know, like I've also made the choice is practically saying, I have a black friend though.Like, I can't be racist.
I have a friend who's black.This is him practically saying the same thing.Like, oh yeah, I mean, like gays aren't having children, but neither am I. So, you know, like, I don't hate them or anything.I'm also not having children.
But that utterly misses the point that like, Yeah, Frank, you're a white man, a straight white man who already has had children.You have had every choice laid bare before you, and you've had the ability to have or not have children.
But for you to claim that a certain type of person has made this choice is completely unfair.They've never been given that choice, especially here in the 60s, 70s, 80s.Those rights didn't exist for gay people.
And even if the technology existed, as you stated, yes, there were paths of surrogacy.Maybe there were other medical ways to have children.Adoption is always out there as an option. Socially, it has to be acceptable first, right?
I also went to a friend's wedding this year. And she has two moms, and that's socially acceptable, and everyone in that circle of friends and family and that community accepts it.
But if that's a thing that's not even acceptable, the gays aren't making a choice here, Frank, quote unquote.Society is imposing a restriction upon them.Those are two very different things.And for Frank to utterly miss that,
is disappointing and hurtful.And then for him to get on a stage and speak these ideas as if they are true, it doubles down on how harmful it is.It's like, if you just don't know, just say, I don't know.
It's okay to say, I don't know enough about this to speak on this or I'm not the person that needs to be speaking here on the mic on this topic.
There's a number of better responses he could have made here, but he seemingly really doubled down on things that – I do think he believes these things.
I don't think he was making some sort of cheeky sort of joke here about like, they're not having kids or – I do think like this is a thing he believes.And as soon as the room went quiet and awkward, he realized he fucked up and tried to backpedal.
It's tough.It's a very disturbing moment.
On top of the fact that like, if you really listen to the tape, you can hear a woman come up and like take the mic away from the student who's talking, you know, and like try to force the mic to the next student and just move on from this moment.
And, you know, I don't want to assume what's going on there, but maybe she's just trying to keep the conversation going and things are spiraling and getting awkward in the room.Or she's just like, we don't want to talk about this.Don't bring this up.
Yeah, it's also I mean, it does, I kind of, it's like, the questions that he fields are a lot of people just going, Hey, Frank, I have a question about that. And this student, the third student to ask, has like a prepared speech.
And so my feeling is like maybe the person who, because I agree, I think the person who kind of says, excuse me, pardon me, and tries to take the microphone, I think it's like, is this becoming a activist demonstration?Is this becoming a thing?
Let's quiet, let's simmer, let's, you know, and Again, that is a bad look because you have this like this is the chance to have this conversation And I also see this as like hey, this is an opportunity for Frank.
What a great opportunity for you, bud You fucked up or or by 1980 standards you fucked up by writing Baron that way What a great chance to say listen a lot of the literature that I was researching at the time said this things have changed and I'm really excited to write my next book and I'm definitely I wouldn't write it the same way today.
I've learned a ton, you know, so So many better things to just say here.
Yeah, here's my number.I'll call you next time I have a character and we'll talk about it and we'll make sure that it's fucking easy.
Or even just like do a classic like politician, just like punt the question and be like, that's really great feedback.Thank you so much for bringing that up.It's something I've heard before and I take deep concern with, you know, I take it seriously.
You know, that's a way for you to like not actually respond to the question and still just kind of punt it and move on.
But he like definitely again, as we said, it's clear from the onset that he gets very flustered and most of these responses are just like sort of panicky flustered. awkward trying to explain his ideas.
And maybe if he had a more comfortable forum in which to explain them, he could get to some point that feels less icky, but he really seems to continue doubling down on the uncomfortable sort of homophobic ideas there.
We're already sort of talking about our feelings on it, but that's the tape.From there, the moment moves on and the next person asks their question. Let's zoom out here.Let's try and synthesize this and digest this moment and our feelings about it.
My feelings have evolved over the course of this podcast about these things.You hear about this and then you do more research, you find this tape, you read God Emperor, and my own feelings have certainly
been shaped and reshaped many times through our many conversations.So let's take a moment to pause and talk about it.How are you feeling?
Yeah, I would say, and this is kind of how I've been, you know, this, I said this a lot in God, Emperor of Dune.I don't feel confident saying I know what was in Frank's heart and Frank's mind when he wrote the words that he wrote.
But it is also undeniable that his books sit within a broader media landscape that sit within a history of these sorts of mistakes, right?
Like pop culture, especially starting in the 50s and 60s, but leading into the 70s and 80s and 90s and 2000s and still today, there is a problem of, for instance, queer coded villains, right?This is a whole thing in media studies
I grew up with Disney and like Scar, Jafar, Hades, a lot of characters in these even animated movies for children have are men with kind of feminine affects and they are just queer coded and that is a problem, and it continues to be a problem.
And then in Dune, we see the only character showing any kind of same-sex interest, Baron, is this caricature of evil, which is rough.And then, as you pointed out, we discussed a lot of this in God Emperor of Dune during our book club.
You know through that conversation I think you and I are still on slightly different like we've kind of come to different conclusions and I think Part of it is just you know how at the end of the day how it affects us individually and like I read those Passages in God Emperor of Dune and I kind of came away like this feels like Frank wholesale lifting Someone else's ideas that he personally hasn't really synthesized that much there's that book the like warfare of human sexuality which
he specifically referenced to a friend.And I feel as though once I've read that, I might have a better idea of where Frank's ideas actually begin and where this book, like referencing that book ends.But for sure,
As I said in the God Emperor of Dunes series, the way that Moneo and Duncan discuss homosexuality hurt people and made it really uncomfortable for people within the LGBTQ community. it is really difficult.It comes across as homophobic.
Duncan is revulsed and, you know, and while he is positioned as this sort of out of date, you know, out of his time character, Moneo is explaining it with like just kind of more intellectual gloss and is not necessarily saying anything more progressive or woke necessarily, right?
I even went back and looked at our notes from those episodes and skimmed those chapters again to refresh my memory.
And I was shocked to find this quote that I wanted to share because what Moneo says here in God Emperor of Dune is practically exactly Frank's response to this student. in this UCLA clip.
Moneo says, quote, the homosexual, latent or otherwise, who maintains that conditions for reasons which could be called purely psychological, tends to indulge in pain-causing behavior, seeking it for himself and inflicting it upon others, end quote.
That's the sadomasochistic idea coming up again.That's the psychological reasons for being gay coming up again.
the homosexual latent or otherwise who maintains that condition beyond adolescence, an idea that comes up in God, Emperor of Dune constantly, that's that coming up again.So it is shocking to me how one for one that is with this UCLA speech.
And I don't think I put those pieces of the puzzle together until honestly this episode and comparing the speech in depth with what is written in Monet's words in God, Emperor of Dune.
Yeah, it just feels like Frank didn't do any additional research about either literally just talking to, I don't know, his son, Bruce, or doing actual research about like, what are the emergent psychiatrists saying about homosexuality?
It's just none of it.It just feels like he's locked in that like 1965, the research he did then, maybe if that is research. It's rough.I'll also say I mentioned Bruce a few times as a backdrop to all of this.
So Frank's son, Brian Herbert, wrote the biography Dreamer of Dune and said that Frank was uncomfortable with his son Bruce's sexuality, which of course continues to cement this pattern of Frank's complicated relationship to the LGBTQ plus community.
And I wanted to bring up this quote from Dreamer of Dune that Brian Herbert wrote. And he says this about when Beverly was on her deathbed.Quote, Bruce had wanted to come afterward, but dad was delaying and giving him a time that would be convenient.
My brother wondered, but did not say so to dad, if this had anything to do with his homosexuality, which our father had never accepted.End quote. Which, yeah, that's rough.That's sad.
The idea of Bruce not feeling welcome in the family, even just after losing Beverly, is really brutal to think about.
I have always been perhaps unnecessarily skeptical of Brian's perspective on anything, because I've read Brian's books, and I don't like Brian.I just don't like him as a person.The kind of person who writes the books that Brian writes
I don't like him.So I, I take a lot of what Ryan writes with a grain of salt.Maybe I needn't, you know, this is really the only perspective we have on this stuff, but I know that with someone like Frank Herbert and when you are
literally writing your way into a career based on your father's works.And your father being a complicated man that maybe you are also not seeing eye to eye with on certain things.I just take a grain of salt with all this.
I think there's a lot of myth making when it comes to people, especially after they're dead and gone.There's a lot of myth making that happens.So I don't know.I take it all.I take it all with a grain of salt.
But certainly there does seem to be a pattern here of Frank and Bruce not being close and Bruce's homosexuality being something that Frank is uncomfortable with.
Yeah, I mean, he writes it pretty explicitly, something our father had never accepted.
You know, I'm less skeptical, as for all the issues I have with Brian Herbert as an author and as the steward of the Dune universe, I'm gonna choose to take Brian at his word here, you know?
Like, he wrote this about his brother, he wrote this about his dad. And, you know, I don't know, I guess my feeling is like if we're not gonna trust a primary source from the man who lived with and was raised by Frank Herbert,
I'm not sure what other sources we're supposed to rely on, especially when you couple that with this UCLA speech that we're dissecting today.
When you couple that with Frank's writings in God Emperor, in Heretic's Chapter House, when you tie all of those things together, it is clear to me that all of the 12 compasses in my pocket are pointing in the same direction.
So North must be that way.And so at that point, am I gonna not trust one of the 12 compasses that are also pointing in that direction?I don't know.
To me, it's clearer and clearer that Frank had homophobic views and the fact that it frayed his relationship
with his own family and is something that Brian Herbert, someone who would want to presumably protect his father's legacy, is willing to also write about in a biography about his father.
I'm a little less skeptical than you are, I think, at the end of the day, is what I'm getting at.
I know, yeah, there's, I can imagine a bevy of reasons why someone would want to paint their parent as a complicated man, as a, you know, someone who's not on a pedestal, someone who could do wrong and leaning into the opportunities to do so.
And in conversations we've had and conversations I've had with other people, I could see a world in which you would have a reason to paint Frank as this kind of complicated man. but I also think he is a complicated man.
And to your point, the 11 other compasses I have in my pocket are similarly pointing north.So I completely agree.
I think even considering the APA's classification of homosexuality as a mental disorder, when Frank wrote Dune and Dune Messiah and Children of Dune, that does not excuse Frank from not continuing to listen and continuing to learn and continuing to adapt to the shifting landscape of what does it mean to be homosexual?
and the fact that he didn't apparently update any of his fucking thoughts and views on it, and then as you said, wrote in God Emperor of Dune more treaties on it, it's like, just don't get involved if you don't know.
This is also part of why I'm like, I don't know that we, no one is demanding that we come up with a verdict of what we ultimately think Frank is or isn't guilty of.This is our choice to kind of talk about and speculate on all these things.
So at the end of the day, I don't know.We will never know for sure what exactly Frank thought about these things.
But absolutely, we do know for sure that his books have hurt people in the LGBTQ community, that he leans into, that he has perpetrated some of these common issues of drawing monoliths of people who are not monoliths.He clearly fucked up.
And I think this is a good place to kind of like, we'll put this conversation to rest, but definitely final thoughts.Let's kind of
Mm-hmm wrap it all up We've talked about a lot, but yeah, we covered a lot of ground Man, yeah, what are you thinking as kind of a final bow on this conversation?What do you think?
Yeah, you know I mentioned earlier that
my feelings and thoughts on this subject, on Frank's homophobic views, has been shaped and reshaped a number of times through my read-throughs of the book, through our own conversations on this show, through the research that you and I have done together, through conversations I've had with other Dune fans.
And where I'm at now, and again, this could be reshaped again in six months if I learned something different or new, Where I'm at now, it seems pretty clear to me that Frank had particular views about homosexuality.
They were problematic and hurtful views.They were ignorant views.And he wrote about those views in his story.We talked about in the first interviews with Frank episode, how He was a man who wrote stories with conviction.
He looked at ecological issues, political issues of his time and said, I can write about this and maybe people will take some of these lessons to heart.I think he also took a look at homosexuality in his time and decided, I have thoughts on this.
I'm going to write about this.And so I, I, you know, back in our God Emperor conversations, I had felt a little differently.
Back then I had said, I had kind of landed in this softer spot where I was like, well, you know, by this point by God Emperor, he's a really famous author and probably just got to like write whatever weird thoughts he had in his head and publish them.
And a stronger editor might have kept him in check and helped him clarify his ideas and get things across in a better way, in a less problematic way. I don't know that I still think that anymore.
I think this is actually what he wanted to get across and was trying to write.And the most damning reason for that is because of that Moneo quote that is practically one for one what Frank says in response to this UCLA student.
And again, if you consider timeline, this UCLA tape was recorded after Chapter House came out, which is years after God Emperor came out, which is years after Moneo said those words and Frank put them to paper.
Many years in which Frank could have seemingly grown or evolved his own understanding of homosexuality, and it appears chose not to.It appears what Moneo said is what Frank still thought in 1985.
Now, to be clear, I'm coming down kind of harsh, of course, and this is somewhat of a different opinion that I had in the God Emperor conversations in the book club back then, but the thing I still stand by, and I said this in the book club series, I'm not trying to cancel Frank Herbert or anything.
I'm not trying to label him as some sort of raging homophobe who hated gay people, and I'm not trying to tarnish or blow up his legacy in any way.That's not my job to do that.And it's not my intention to do that in any way.
His stories still mean the world to me.I still greatly admire his work.I still am incredibly impressed by his talents and his mind.
But at the same time, I'm at the point now where I'm not feeling like I need to brush his, what to me feels like clearly homophobic ideas and this mountain of evidence that point toward that, all the compasses are pointing north, under the rug.
I don't feel like I need to brush that under the rug.And to sort of sum up my thoughts, I guess, you mentioned it earlier, human beings are complicated people.That's a fact.
And where I kind of land is even for his time, even for 1985, it appears Frank had homophobic views.
And at the same time, he also wrote these iconic and incredible stories that are full of shockingly progressive ideas on everything from politics to religion. And it's tough because those feel like opposite things.We want our heroes to be monoliths.
We want them to be these admirable characters that are icons of perfection.But I think both of those things can be true.And in this case, I think they are.He wrote about harmful and ignorant ideas he had about homosexuality in his books.
He also wrote about deeply progressive and shockingly prescient ideas about ecology and politics and religion in his books, too.And for me, both of those things are true. So I think that's kind of where I land.
It goes back to a larger art versus artist debate that I don't think we have time to get into here, but that's kind of where I land.
Frank, messy person, had some shitty views, wrote about them, but also wrote an amazing story that I still love deeply and admire.What about you?
Yeah, I think it's clear to me, I fully agree that, you know, Frank was someone who believed strongly in social change and used his novels as a means of leveraging what he did to sway people toward maybe more ecological or more anti-establishment or more, you know, anti-institutional views.
I also think Frank was deeply interested in the psychology and the like philosophy of gender and of like men and women and wasn't mean to be a man, wasn't mean to be a woman.
And all of that, of course, I really I would be very curious to see what kind of book Frank would write in 2030, you know, as we continue to have these conversations about like trans rights.
And breaking down that binary a little bit more, because again, so much of it's like Paul in Dune sees where men are, where women are, and it's just this like very clear binary in Frank's world.Yeah, definitely.Very interesting.
But I also see that as part of the overall pattern of him writing about homosexuality, because as you talk about sexuality, and sexuality is all over Frank's books, especially Children, God Emperor of Dune, Heretics, and Chapter House.
I think he wrote what he understood, but it is more and more clear to me that what he understood was not an ongoing, evolving thing that was benefiting from the people who were brave enough to share their stories in the 1970s and 80s.
So I think Frank, yeah, had some antiquated out-of-date views and did the thing that I wish most people wouldn't do, which is if you aren't informed and you have a huge platform upon which you can broadcast your ideas to potentially millions of readers,
saying uninformed shit to millions and millions of people is so damaging and is so hard because people might not know better.They might look up to you as an author.They might look up to you for all the reasons we look up to Frank.
And that really just like taints the water, taints the pool.And you need it.You were writing an excellent book without getting into talking about parts of the sexuality conversation.And and yet he made that choice.
And that's really that's the frustrating part here.
The UCLA tape in particular is also really frustrating for me because I would like to think that Frank continued to learn and continue to research and continue to be curious as he so blatantly claims to be in all of his different interviews.
And yet it seems like he really was stuck in those earlier thoughts that he had and just like, I don't know, stuck there.
Also, I resonate with what you're saying about, you know, maybe we'll have different views in six months, you know, more stuff comes to light, more conversations are had, more perspectives are shared.For sure, I'm very much open to change.
I also am interested in, it was the book, The Sexual Cycle of Human Warfare, which is a book that Frank read and recommended to people.
So clearly this is something that he really liked and from at least the synopsis, like if you look at the chapter synopsis of the sexual cycle of human warfare, it looks like a breakdown of conversations from God Emperor of Dune.
So I want to read that book.I want to look at it and there I might have a better idea of in God Emperor of Dune where Frank would have had more perspective.
Where does his, where do his ideas sit and where was he just kind of lifting from this recent book that he read? I don't know.I'm curious about that.I think that could have an effect on my opinion about all this.
But for now, I think we can all say, Frank had an opportunity, a really easy opportunity in UCLA to give a better answer, to say, I fucked up or, you know, listen, I was basing it on modern research at the time.Now things have changed.
I will write better in the future.Thank you for sharing your perspective.There's a million ways he could have answered that question better.And it said he fucked up.
And I want to say that my main takeaway from all of this and sort of the note that I would like to end on, and I say this also as someone, I was born and raised in Berkeley, California, where there were a lot of like very progressive people who moved there and like set up shop there.
And that's like where I was raised. I still see people from Berkeley from the you know who might be older have perspectives that are very locked in like 1995 early 2000s thinking.
and it is a problem that I see where people who identify as liberal or progressive or woke or however will just like stop, will just like stop being open to new ideas and new conversations.
I think it is worth remembering that being progressive and inclusive and being respectful to people isn't something that you just achieve one day and then you get to relax and not ever do it again.It is like showing someone that you love them.
You have to just, you just have to keep working at it.It is a lifelong effort.It involves listening to people's stories and perspectives that are not your own.It requires learning and understanding that you do not know everything.
And that also includes being humble and flexible with your own beliefs. No one knows anything.No one knows everything.So my takeaway for all this is Frank fucked up by not doing that.
Frank fucked up by not listening, by not being humble, by not learning from the people in his life like Bruce.And clearly at some point, again, he wrote some progressive stuff for 1965.
it could have gone a lot further, it could have gone a lot better.So folks out there in listener lane, be kind, be kind to one another.If someone shares their perspective and you don't share it, still be kind.
You don't have to understand to be respectful. Well, that's our look at the UCLA tape.And yes, I do want to point out again, Abu and I, we have our perspectives.We have our takes.We want to hear yours as well.
So please reach out to us if you have a differ differing thought than ours.If you have a different perspective than ours, please come to our podcast at Gmail dot com.Let us know.We're always open to hearing different people's perspectives.
Now, we are going to look at Frank Herbert as an author.We're going to look at some of the things he shared about his writing method and his kind of history with authorship.
But before we do that, we're going to take a quick break after that heavy, heavy topic.I think we could use some water, some coffee, some chocolate, some bourbon, some candy, something sweet.That high fructose corn syrup.
The high fructose corn syrup.So don't go anywhere, dear listener.When we're back, we're talking about Frank as an author.
Welcome back, folks.Let's get into the second half of our conversation today.
Coming off of a heavy and complicated topic that we wanted to dedicate a good portion of the episode to, we want to switch gears a little bit and end the episode on a bit of a lighter note by examining Frank Herbert as an author, as a storyteller.
Something that we really came away with after listening to hours of tape and reading numerous interviews with Frank was this appreciation for Frank as a storyteller.
We gained some really interesting insights into how he worked, why he worked, the way he shaped his stories in particular ways that I think is quite enlightening for reading Dune and kind of explains many aspects of Dune we've discussed before.
Yeah, and some of this actually was surprising.I enjoy listening to authors talk about authorship, but... Me too.Some of what he said, I was like, wow, really?Okay.
Yeah, the craftsman behind the craft is always, for me at least, really interesting to hear people's thought process, because as consumers, as the audience, we only ever see the end product.
creating something is such a process and goes through so many iterations.And how you end up at an end product is never a linear journey.So getting to hear Frank talk about that windy journey to making Dune was really interesting.
And to start off, drawing from two different print interviews, we get a sense not only of how early Frank knew he wanted to be a craftsman, a novelist, telling stories, weaving his stories, but also where he draws his confidence from throughout his career.
So here, first from the 1973 Vertex interview that we found, Frank shares this about his earliest years.Quote, I decided very early I was going to write fiction.
I came down to my birthday breakfast on my eighth birthday and announced formally and portentously to my family that I was going to be an author.
My mother still treasures several hand scribbled, badly misspelled early eight year old attempts at fiction.
Yeah.And those are the notes that Brian Herbert and Kevin Jameson based their books on.
Eight year old Frank's like, and everyone was a Gola.
They're like, sold.Everyone's a Gola.
Forward 20's came back.Forward 20's came back. Duncan was good at sexy times!
Wow.Yeah, 8 year old Frank.
Duncan was really good at sex!So good!
Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson are pouring over these hand scribbled notes.They're like, my God, he's a genius.
What does it mean?I can't read this word.The numbers, everything.That's my new favorite head canon.Is that there?The whole canon is based on his notes.It's just not the notes we expected.Then in the 1980 book, Dream Makers by Charles Platt,
Frank said this about his career aspirations and his confidence, and I thought this was huge.Quote, I think that self-limitation is the major limiting factor for most people in the world.
They've been led to believe in these limitations by various factors. If you have a quiescent population, it's much easier to govern.
You don't want a lot of people out there producing new things because new things oftentimes are dangerous to the people in power."End quote.
Wow.What a classic Frank statement.I love that.
I love it.I mean, it reads directly out of later two journals.Yes.This is like an epigraph for just one for one.And I really resonate with that in the creative field.People are so quick to shoot themselves down.
Now, on one hand, we could go back to this sounds like Frank enjoying a tremendous privilege as a white straight man in America.
But in the creative field as an author, as an artist, as a musician, people are so fast to shoot themselves down because they don't feel like they fit a certain mold or they're not immediately great at something.
Bob Ross said in one of his episodes, talent is a pursued interest. Anything you're willing to practice, you can do.And I find that that is kind of in line with what Frank is saying here, right?
This idea that you, and granted, he's coming at it from the anti-establishment thing, you want people to self-limit so that you don't have to worry about them getting out of line and upsetting your carefully laid balance of power, you know, so you don't get dethroned or whatever.
But still, I think that for people, I teach art and people will say, I'm not an artist.And I'm like, but you love to draw and you love to make things.Like, what do you mean?And yet people are very quick to shoot themselves down.
Talent is interest pursued.Do the thing, you'll get better at it.If you draw a hundred kitty cats, that hundred and first kitty cat's gonna be even better, dear listener.Go ahead, try it out.
Certainly better than kitty cat number three.
kitty cat number three fucking sucks because it's your third kitty cat fuck that drawing burn it burn it for warmth but draw for the cat or a slick you know what are you even trying here who's to say is that good get better is that fucking idiot loser this is the cultivating confidence talk idiot loser try hard enough a pep talk
Do it again.I do love that sentiment, this idea that most people's biggest limiting factor is actually themselves.
Yeah, I've had so many conversations with people where the more I've learned, the more I'm like, I don't think talent exists in the common meaning of the word.I think it's just a way of expressing how much endurance one has for practicing a thing.
So if you love art, people can say, oh, he's so talented.But what you're describing is he has had the persistence to keep doing the thing until he's gotten to the point where you can praise him for doing that thing.
I see you trying to lead us down this talent versus skill rabbit hole.We have dodged two huge rabbit holes today with art versus artist and talent versus skill.
Yeah, we'll come back to it.
Trust me, I could do like a 10-part episode series on each of those.I have so many thoughts.
Okay, let's get back to Frank because there's a couple of other interesting things about Frank as an author that we want to share.So early on in his career, after he builds a strong foundation for himself,
writing a number of short stories, Frank eventually took the plunge into writing his first real deal full novel.The story was titled Under Pressure.It was serialized in 1955 and 1956.
And with, again, sort of how Dune was collected into a single novel, this story would then be collected into his first novel, which was titled The Dragon in the Sea, and officially published in 1956.
So, we bring that up because this next quote that we're gonna share is interesting and it speaks to Frank's work ethic.In 1969, when he's chatting with Willis McNally, Frank had settled into a bit of a routine.
He had been writing for many years now, a decade plus. And McNelly asks him what that schedule is.When do you write?How do you write?You know, this is a very popular question that a lot of authors get asked a lot.
You know, what's your hack for writing a lot?And McNelly basically asks Frank that.And Frank explains that he gets home from work from San Francisco around 5 p.m.
I'll then take an hour's nap and then work sometimes till one o'clock in the morning.Then I hit the sack. and get up.And sometimes if the story is strong in me, I get up in the morning and write.
Get up at five o'clock in the morning or so and write for an hour or two sometimes before going down to San Francisco.
Well, okay.Glad to know that a productive workday always starts with a nap.That's excellent.Excellent to hear.
Napping is very important.
I just watched this great video on sleep yesterday.Yeah.
that talked about how important naps actually are, and our brains are actually wired to nap in the middle of the day, and siestas are actually such an important thing that capitalist America has killed.
Oh, no.Oh, damn it.I've kind of talked myself out of naps.Maybe I'll have to start napping some more.I mean, it's what Frank did.Indeed.Well, in his conversation with McNally, Frank also shares two interesting things about his writing method.
First, something we've mentioned on this show before, but sourced from this interview, is that Frank used haiku to write pieces of Dune, which is very cool.
We saw that as like a fun tidbit, like a, you know, today I learned kind of thing, but here are the words from the man himself.
You know, don't you, that one element of the construction of this book, it's all the way through there that I wrote certain parts of it in haiku and other poetical forms, and then expanded them to prose to create a pace.
I haven't picked those out specifically, but I sort of caught something of that, and that's... Some of my friends have come back to me with examples out of it and said, was this a... Haiku.Was this a haiku?Or a takka or something.Yeah, or a takka.
And yes, they're in there.
Super interesting.Oh, I love that.Creating a sense of rhythm or even just like word economy, right?Like being very, very deliberate with the number of syllables and then working it into prose is such a cool idea.
Now, the other thing that Frank tells McNally is how he actually wrote Dune with oral storytelling and oral tradition in mind, which is super fascinating.
And I work orally. Because I think that the language was spoken long before it was written.And I think that unconsciously, we still accept it as an oral transmission.
Wow.Okay.So listening to the audiobook is the most authentic way to consume Dune.Confirmed.From the man himself?
There you go.Yeah.He did numbers for Audible back in the day.
It also definitely paints an interesting picture of the God Emperor of Dune dichotomy between the official histories and the oral history, right?Yeah.
The oral history as a major piece of the puzzle.We now know that Frank actually quite covets the idea of an oral history and that he sees his books as sort of extending it in a way. Very, very cool.
Also, yeah, shout out to voice actors who do audiobooks.Very cool.Anyway, I've done a few. Now, for as prolific of an author as Frank was, no one can be inspired to create art every day.
And this is a challenge, of course, a lot of creative people run into, especially when you make your creative passion your job.It's like, when it's just your creative passion, you do it for fun whenever the mood strikes.
Mood, mood is for lovemaking and cattle or something.But Frank shares his thoughts on this dilemma in the 1973 Vertex interview. Quote, a man is a fool not to put everything he has at any given moment into what he is creating.
So I don't worry about inspiration or anything like that.It's a matter of just sitting down and working. I've felt reluctant to write on some days for whole weeks or sometimes even longer.
I'd much rather go fishing, for example, or go sharpen pencils or go swimming or whatnot.
But later, coming back and reading what I have produced, I am unable to detect the difference between what came easily and when I had to sit down and say, well, now it's writing time and now I'll write.
There's no difference on paper between the two."End quote.
And that is wild to me and I think that's got to be something that's unique to Frank like It's so funny to think about that because for sure as an artist there are times when it feels like every minute of creation is this
horrible, difficult thing that you're just like fighting uphill every step of the way.And then sometimes it just flows naturally and you go, wow, this is so good.I'm in this great rut.
The idea that you could then come back to it and not be able to tell the difference in the quality feels almost impossible to believe.But he, at this point, has been a novelist for decades.
So it's like, well, okay, maybe he knows what he's talking about.
I mean, the idea of just sitting down and writing no matter what, that's quite common.I did an interview with R.L.Stine one time, and he's a very funny, kind of grumpy old man in a very cutesy way.He's like the grandpa you definitely want.
But his response to basically this question of how do you get inspired to write so much is just, I fucking write every day. even when I don't want to, I just sit down and write for hours.And I've been doing that for 40 years.
And like, yes, you do that enough and you're just going to get good at writing.And so like, I think a lot of authors actually have this mentality of, you know, I just write all the time, even when I don't want to.And I definitely
I'm inspired hearing that from Frank as well.It speaks to the idea we were talking about earlier.It's like you can actually get good at anything.It's just gonna take a thousand times more effort than you thought it would.
And sitting down and forcing yourself to do a thing every single day for decades, yeah, you'll get good at that thing.
Yeah, it's very true.You can't even help it at a certain point.You will develop whether or not you're really intending to.
I actually really resonate with these ideas that we've been talking about.This, like, just sit down and write attitude.What does mood have to do with it?Like, I just write whenever I have to because I have to.
A lot of the artists I admire have this, like, very hyper-focused and extremely simplistic attitude about their work and about their craft. I was looking up some quotes from people I admire, and this Kubrick quote really stood out to me.
He got asked what his advice was for young filmmakers, and he said, quote, the best thing that young filmmakers should do is to get a hold of a camera and some film and make a movie of any kind at all, end of quote.And that is just it, you know?
Geniuses and artists that we all look up to didn't get there by not doing it.
And there is no hack, you know, like we live in such a world where like there's this hack culture, how to hack your income to make blah, blah, blah on the side, how to hack your sleep to maximize your blah, blah, blah.
And it's like, there is just like no hack to creating something.You just have to create it over and over and over and so much that you eventually get good at it. And so again, Kubrick, what advice is he gonna give a young filmmaker?
There is no hack to just being good at making movies.You just grab a camera and make something, and then you finish that thing and you make the next thing, and you make the next thing, and you just keep going.And hopefully it works out.
Yeah, that's a great point.And it's a it's a very true sentiment.One of the best bits of advice I got was from a voice actor, who she was actually in Digimon and, and I'm on and she was in a bunch of cool things.
But she, I asked her one day, I was like, should I, I don't know, should I do this?Is this going to be a waste of my time or whatever?
And she was like, how about you do it, do the work, do the project, and then afterwards you can decide if it was a good waste of whatever.And I did the project and I was like, Oh my God, I'm so glad I did that project.
It was like, it was just the best.And, you know, I think she was just speaking from her experience of like, just do the thing if you want to make a movie.And again, you don't have to like, sell the house and home to fund it and whatever.
It's like, you know, make make it within your means.But still, it's like just doing the thing you will learn so much.
And as long as you're being practical about it and you're making decisions from a place of not ruining your life for these pursuits, you really just learn and you grow.And, you know, if you don't expect too much out of it, it's great.
I'll also say for anybody who does want to get into the arts a little bit more, there is a book called How to Steal Like an Artist. or steal like an art, just steal like an artist.And it's by Austin Cleone.And it's excellent.
It's a really, really great book says 10 things nobody told you about being creative.And it actually is a book that I will reread pretty frequently just to remind myself of, you know, Go out there.Be inspired.Find inspiration.Engage in art.Make art.
Do the thing.Do the thing.Do it.Don't waste all your time talking about it.Do it.Do some art.Make it.You'll get better.It's so simple. So very, very cool.
Should that be the new Gansbrush slogan?Just do it.Do you think anyone's thought of that?
Do it.I don't think anyone has.And then just to kind of give you the idea of getting it done, maybe like our logo should be like, um, like a check mark or like a, you know, you're, you're marking it off the, yeah.
Like it's the box, your to-do list done, baby.
Like exactly.Yeah.But maybe not too harsh of an angle.Cause right angles can be kind of hard.Yeah.
Yeah, tilt it and with a nice little, I don't know, calligraphic swoop kind of thing.
Okay, cool.We'll workshop it.New merchant coming.
Can't imagine any issues with that.
All right, let's wrap up today's conversation.Yeah.And as a final note, I found this really interesting. Because I think it actually puts a nice bow on many of the conversations we've had throughout this episode, including the UCLA stuff.
I mentioned earlier that Frank was a man that contained multitudes, right?And he had many progressive ideas about certain topics and some problematic ideas about others.Here's something that he tells Charles Platt for that book.
about how Beverly supported his career, especially early on.Because even by 1969, Frank is not like a full-time writer living entirely off of his novels.
And he says that for a large chunk of his career, it was Beverly who was the sole breadwinner for the family. Quote, my wife Bev was our main source of income on many occasions.She went off to the office and bought our beans.I find it interesting.
I said that so weird.Let me say that again.Like she went to the office, her office was like Costco, you know, it was just like the name just to go buy beans.
Bean store.The bean store.
She went to the office and bought our beans.I find it interesting that our society is becoming more and more acceptant of this.There's still resistance to it.The macho dream still exists.
But the macho dream, of course, originated in very primitive times under extraordinary conditions."
That is, again, this book was written, this book was published in the 80s, so presumably he's talking to this Charles Platt sometime in the 70s, late 70s, and I don't know, that to me feels
quite ahead of his time for Frank to, he's calling it the macho dream, but what he's getting at is what we would today call toxic masculinity, basically.
And it's very interesting that he has this progressive view of the wife being the primary breadwinner and supporting the husband and the household.And that's a thing that even today people are uncomfortable with, right?
That's a thing that many men in 2024 struggle with.And for Frank to just be chill with that, back in the 60s and 70s as he's getting his career off the ground.Again, very progressive stuff from a very complicated man.
Yeah, by necessity, because what else are you going to do?Get a job?So Frank, he's kind of rationalizing it for himself.But I agree.And I think he's expressing this, and I appreciate that he's expressing that.
Because for sure, in the toxic manosphere on the internet, there are still a lot of people who are like, fellas, you have to be the alpha.You have to make them.
Couldn't catch me with my partner making more money than me, or sorry, my wife, my woman making more money than me.The woman that I own, she can't earn more than me.And it's like, why do you, it's so weird.Stop being so weird.Weirdo.Weirdo.
Yeah, that still somehow exists even today.
Say it louder, Frank.Say it louder for the guys in the back of the room.In the back of the room because they were late because they don't respect people's time.Buy some more beans.Anyway, that's our episode.
Folks, this is not the end of interviews with Frank Herbert. We are going to continue digging.We are going to continue looking at his interviews, books that he's recommended, things that he said, and hearing from the man himself.
So consider this episode yet another installation in this ongoing, indefinite series of Frank Herbert and his books.And if you enjoyed this episode, let us know.As we mentioned, it takes a lot of time and
Hopefully you enjoy it, but let us know if you like this as well.We want to hear.We want to hear from you.
For sure.And definitely share your thoughts on the topics we discuss as well.We love to have those ongoing conversations with our listeners and other dude fans out there.Indeed we do.All right, before we let you go, as always, you know the drill.
We want to remind you of two great ways to support this show and how to keep in touch with us. So to start, the two best ways to support Gamja Bar is to become a Patreon at patreon.com slash gamjabar.
Add free episodes, early access to book clubs, bunch of other bonus goodies.Plus it helps us make episodes like this.So if you like this. Go support us over there.
The second best way to help us keep Gamjabar running is to check out our merch store, gamjabarshop.com.A lot of beautiful art there, a lot of it created by Leo himself.
So go check it out, get yourself something nice, get a loved one something nice, okay?Get your breadwinner wife who brings home the beans something nice from gamjabarshop.com.All of those links are in the show notes.
And while doing that, you'll help us get the beans.
I'm so hungry for beans.And we love to hear from you.So email us.How much do you love beans?Gomjamartpodcast.gmail.com.Send us your thoughts, pictures of beans, and your questions.Send us pictures of your cute pets as well as your favorite beans.
Send us pictures of your pantry, actually.
Yeah, do that.Help us buy these beans. Well, friends, there is no real ending.It's just the place where you stop the recording.But this podcast is always one step beyond logic.
So help spread the word of Muad'Dib and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.And be sure to check out the other shows on the Lore Party podcast network on loreparty.com.
You can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram at lore underscore party. We're also on TikTok, at Gamjamar Podcast.Thank you so much for listening, and remember, whoever controls the podcast, controls the universe.We'll see you on the Golden Path.
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