Hi, everybody.I'm Simon Majumder, and welcome to Eat My Globe, a podcast about things you didn't know you didn't know about food.
And on today's very special episode, we have lucky enough to join us one of my greatest pals from PBS and the Food Network.He's a chef who's won a James Beard Award, whose cooking shows have won an Emmy Award.In fact,
He has very kindly invited me on one of his shows, Simply Men, where we cooked one of my favorite dishes of all time, a very British chicken tikka masala.
He has written many cookbooks that have been included in the top cookbook lists, opened restaurants to wide acclaim. I've also judged him on the next Iron Chef and have then since shared many judging panels with him on various shows.
And now, of course, he is an Iron Chef himself.
One great occasion that i travel schedules aligned while in london i got to spend time with him and his lovely family and took him to one of my favorite fish and chips shops masters super fish where we all piled into one of the best chippy suppers on the planet that was so much fun
And finally, one fact about our next guest is not only is he a wonderful chef, author, business person, and philanthropist, but he's also been named as People magazine's 50 most beautiful people in the world.And indeed he is.
Beautiful inside and out. So it is my very very great pleasure to introduce you to my friend and the one and only mr ming.Why don't you tell us what you doing right now i know you used to be busy with me but tell us why.
You have to stop doing that for a while and without obviously causing any. you know, paying to your wife or anything else about what she's doing.Because I understand that with my, you know, my own cancer.
You've been an inspiration to a lot of us chefs.I see you working so hard during Tournament of Champions and you, you know, you're just an inspiration, dude.You went through crazy illness with what's been going on with your brain and
It didn't slow you down.You just said like, okay, this stinks.This is a bump in the road.Let me do what the doctor says I need to do.
And you do X, Y, and Z. And it was a huge bump in the road, but you just bounced back like, okay, well that stunk, but I'm back.And that's an inspiring story, Simon, because a lot of people would give up.
A lot of people like start feeling sorry for themselves.And oh my God, why me?Why me?You never said, why me?You just said, I gotta just do it.
Well, I've got my, I've got my lovely wife who tells me to stop saying why me so.And she's been the one who's been in charge of everything.So I don't blame it on me.But I do think without her, I will.
And I think life partner is paramount.Great when things are going great. really great when things aren't going great.As we were discussing Ming's Bings, it's a startup for four years.As you can imagine, every startup is really tough.
You got to be everywhere.It's Ming's Bings, I'm Ming.I had to be at every demo, all the grocery stores and whatnot.I was traveling all the time plus the factory.
And unfortunately, my wife has had some health issues, and it came back this year with a vengeance.And she survived.She got through it, and she was on the mend.But after two to three months after this happened,
winter, she was not recovering the speed that she needed to.She needed to get her strength back, her weight back, all that stuff.And there's not a better person on this planet, humbly, than me to feed my wife, right?
I mean, this is what I do, I cook.And so I had to make a really difficult choice to, you know, as you would do the same, family first, wife first, over business, over anything.And, you know, my biggest lesson that I learned there,
is make sure you partner with the right people.Make sure people that are your investors are really people that you would trust, that you'd want to invest into them as well.
Because when, very proudly when I explained to my cap table that, listen guys, I need to pull out.I'm sorry, I know you've given me money and believed in me, but this is what I need to do.Every single one's like, do exactly that.You have to do that.
We want you to do that.Good luck.And that, That spoke volumes to the commitment and the true friendships I had with the cap table.And so it is, you can always get money, but there's good money and then there's not good money.
And I do think it's so important for anyone doing a new business, get good money.It's so important.
Well, from all of the people here on InMyGlobe, we want to give you and your wife good words.And we want to say, you know, we hope she recovers and you recover and everyone goes through it really well.So please.
And she's on, like you, she's on the mend.She's better.She had clear scans just recently.So we're I know I did the right thing, and I know she's going to get through this, and we're going to continue on enjoying this globe we live in.
I'm so happy to know about her health.Let's go into the past, shall we, since we're a history show.So tell me if I'm right with this, and I hope I've got it right.You were raised in Dayton, Ohio, is that correct?That is correct.
Born in Newport Beach, but raised in Dayton, Ohio, 18 years. culinary capital of the world.
Well, I, you know, I, I love actually date.No, hi.I love all the bits of Ohio.
I've traveled to so many of them and I actually find the people that are really friendly and really, you know, so from that point of view, I think they're really good people.
Oh, it's the it was the best place on earth for me to grow up, right?This is you didn't lock the doors.Exactly the Midwest mentality.Everyone is your neighbor.Everyone is friendly.It was a wonderful place of law.Yeah.
Well, my brother and I were the only two non white people in the entire school, right?We're two Asians, there are no African Americans, just us two, but no one treated us any differently.We were just two kids that like to play tag and
I always joke that when we had the three or four families, Chinese families over to our house, we were Chinatown.That was it.That was the entire population of Chinese in Dayton, Ohio.Honestly, fantastic place to go.
My dad was chief scientist at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.That's how we ended up in Dayton. And it's a great place to come from for bringing up children and for getting your value system and take care of your neighbor.Dayton was fantastic.
And I was going to talk about your father, because it always says he was a rocket scientist.
He still is.My dad is 95 years old, Simon.He is, like, you're an inspiration.He's ridiculous.At 95, he works full time still.He is currently, as we speak, in Asia for a month trip. to five different countries, seven cities, 12 meetings.
He has a new patent called Double Double.There's a new way of designing a fuselage, cheaper, faster, stronger.So that's it.
So of course, he talks to SpaceX, and he talks to Ferrari, and he talks to Airbus, and he talks to Callaway and Toray, the largest graphite gold mine shaft maker in Tokyo.
And at 95, he has a ski pole, he zooms through the airports, he is self-sufficient, just unbelievable.And literally works full time today.It's just something that is just, I've never seen it before.
And I will talk about this because at the same time, was it your mother who was running the Mandarin Kitchen?
So how did that help him?I mean, well, you tell us about that.Because didn't you go to Yale and all these fantastic places and then you ended up doing cooking?
Exactly.So I was a good Chinese son.I think I still am.And which was I had to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer growing up, right?That's just, that's it.That was the only choice.
And by the way, the other rules growing up was so, doctor, lawyer, engineer, get any grades you want as long as they're straight A's. And marry anyone you want, we prefer Chinese.So Simon, I'm 0 for 3.I did none of the above.
Although my awesome wife, Polly, does speak fluent Chinese.So I think that got her in good graces.Plus, she's just an awesome person.
And my parents, my mom's in heaven now, but they both used to make fun of me that her Chinese accent was better than mine.I'm like, say what?What are you talking about?She's from Daytona.
And funny enough, you don't know this, but Polly was born in Daytona. Polly was born literally a par three from where I lived and we never met there.It's just a really crazy story.
I met Polly because eventually one of her brothers, David Talbot, who of course is also in heaven, was my squash coach at Yale.And he had Polly visit once.
She was at CU Boulder studying Chinese, learning to speak Chinese, just random, nothing to do with me.She just wanted smaller classes at CU Boulder.And as another ironic,
happenstance, ended up rooming with Ivan Orkin, who, of course, is the ramen king, Ivan Ramen.Yeah.So they were great friends in college.And of course, now we're all great friends, because Ivan's one of the best ramen chefs in the world.
And because he wanted to study Japanese.So that's how they met at a Greenpeace rally.Anyway, So that's David.So now back to my mom.She opens up the Mandarin Kitchen, which is a great little Chinese restaurant, really focused on lunch.
This is in the Dayton Arcade downtown.And my dad being the engineer, he actually created batch cooking, which is what Chipotle and everyone else does now.
Because a classic Chinese restaurant, if you order a sweet and sour pork, you make it, it's served. that's fine if it's a sit down restaurant, but this is a takeout fast food to 200 people in an hour, we could never do it.
So we did batch cooking, which was literally we would have, you know, the pork and the beef and the chicken and the sauces separate.
So you get sweet and sour, spicy or mala, whatever it is, you want it on rice, you want to noodles, it's batch cooking.It's what Chipotle's does.So he I wish he patented that I wish all my I wish all the sites patented.
And so my dad was involved because thinking as an engineer, but it really was my mom's.So I was 14, 15, 16.I was the manager at 14 because I was a son.She could trust me with money.I was the dishwasher.I was the rice cooker.
I was the egg roll cart boy.We literally had an egg roll cart that my dad designed with this welder that cost $5,000 to build.Beautiful stainless steel cart.Simon, back then a car, a Ford Fairmont was $5,000.We're talking about a lot of money.
What happened to this?What happened to this car?
I would love the restaurant.I wish I you're so right.I wish I could get that car back.It was beautiful.I had a propane tank and a hot sink and you know, OSHA standard everything.
And but that job was paramount for me because that's when I got the restaurant bug.You can serve delicious food with a smile at a good value, you're going to get customers back and that bug is like, wow, I can make people happy through food.
This, this is a job that one, I like to do it.I'm actually pretty good at it too.What a great job.You can make people happy every day.I want this job.
I know because, well, we'll talk about your restaurants in a short while, but I've been to both, well, yeah, Blue Ginger and Blue Dragon, and they were both fantastic.
I want to talk about that because you gave me one of the great experiences, apart from meeting with you, and I have a picture here.I want to show you this picture.Okay.
No, do you remember this picture?
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's awesome.Oh yeah, it was Jacques.That's that blue dragon.
I was invited for a meal and there's a picture of me and Jacques Pepin.And Jacques Pepin is wearing my hat.And so I was so pleased.He wore my hat, but I didn't give it to him.
I was going to say you should have because he gave me a bow tie once.I was at an event and I've known Jacques almost my entire career and he's just hats off to Jacques.Jacques is, first of all, for the record, he's one of the most talented chefs.
the world.I mean, anything from charcuterie, to making croissants, to soufflés, to any technique Jacques knows.His knife skills are as good as Morimoto's knife skills, right?I mean, he's an unbelievable tactician. He's crazy good.Everything.
I mean, everything he can do.And the most prolific artist.Have you seen his menus?Right?He makes menus.I type a menu of seven courses.
Great.He hand calligraphies his menu and then draws pictures of each one of his courses in multicolored pencils.
Jesus, shock you.He literally is.And above all that, like my father, one of the most humble men in the world, right?He is such a, just to emulate, if you could, any chef that can emulate Jacques Pepin, you are golden.
If you could be anything close to Jacques. And the way he deals with people, the way he deals with himself in the world, the way he makes people happy with food, just his way.
When you're in the room with Jacques, he makes you feel like a million bucks that you're important and he cares.And I will say this, I'm very proudly cooking with him again.He's doing 90 dinners.
for his 90th birthday for the Jacques Pepin Foundation.Danny Meyer just did the first one I just saw in New York, and we're all doing it.So I'm doing one with Jeremy Sewell and Michael Schlau and Ken Oranger, right?
Jamie Romano, some great Boston chefs, and we're doing this all across the country. Google Jacques Pepin dinners, because we're going to be, they're going to be in a city, 90 cities around the country.So try to check it out.
And just in case you don't know what he does, he's providing scholarships for people that can't afford to go to cooking school and learn the métiers that we got to learn.It's changed, right?Back in the day, we would credit us, it'd be for free.
We work in France, we work in Japan or whatever. It's not like that anymore, right?Now, you can't work for free in America because of insurance, right?You cannot be a free.Even if you want to work for free, it's not allowed because you hurt yourself.
It's just a different way of doing it.Now, you have these fantastic chef schools that definitely give you a base training, but they're expensive.
The Jacques Pepin Foundation is really planning for a much more tasty America in the future because without chefs, you're not going to have a tasty America.
No, absolutely.And after you introduced me to him, and I'd never met him before, I actually did one of these podcasts with him.And we lasted nearly two hours of him just telling me about his time in France, his time in the army, all of this stuff.
And it was just spectacular.I know this is supposed to be about you.
Yeah, I'm back in that place all day long, so that's easy.
oh no he's a great person and for anyone who doesn't know him he used to be with julia charles on tv and when you go and have chance go and see him on julia charles listen to my podcast with him he's fantastic but now
Wait, hang on.Did he tell you the Tete de Veau?Did he tell you the Tete de Veau story when he was a young chef in New York?
No, don't tell me that.No, tell me.
He wanted to make Tete de Veau.Tete de Veau, for those that don't know, is basically all the parts of the head of the pig and you make you cook and you make a beautiful pate de veau, a pate, and he wanted to make it.
So he asked for a couple heads, and it showed up to his apartment.But it was all full of hair, and he never, in France, he would get it prepped.
You still have to go in and boil it and get everything out of it, but it didn't have all that hair and everything on it, so he didn't know what to do.So they tried to burn it and break it down, and they made a complete
bloody mess.And true story, apparently late at night they're like, what are we going to do with these two masses?They dump it in the Hudson.They dump these two bloody ridiculous heads.
And then the next day it made the newspaper that some religious cult did some satanical thing on these.
We can't describe what the animals were.And they're like, oh my dear, that was us. So that was just unbelievable.
And, uh, you know, even at 90 something, he's always on, uh, YouTube, but he's cooking and it's just everything about him.
I always, you know, whenever I see him on YouTube, I'll go and look at it because everything he does, I'm just watching his knife skills.But anyway,
Now we've talked about jack and please please listen to my podcast go to one of these dinners everything you can because it's going to be amazing.But before we go that you were at yale. You were trained to be a mechanical engineer.
So the first thing I wondered, is there anything about being a mechanical engineer and a chef that you kind of went, well, there's some similarity between them.There's something that I use in chefdom that I used when I was a mechanical engineer.
Yeah, no, I mean, believe it or not, there is crossover.First and foremost, Learning engineering is just problem solving, right?You got 12 variables, you need the 13th answer, so to train your mind how to solve problems.
So I think that's a great, just math, physics, I think that's great to train your mind.When you start running a business, you need to learn how to read spreadsheets.And that's one thing that engineering did teach you.
How you make your form is to do spreadsheets, because there's so many great chefs in this country, in this world, but if they can't read a spreadsheet, they can't read a P&L, they don't know if they're making money or not.
And that's really one of the, I think, just obvious reasons places go out of business, because you could have the most talented chef in the world, but they can't keep their expenses and everything in line, you're in trouble.
So analytically thinking, I think, helps running businesses.Also, the basics of physics, PV equals NRT, pressure and temperature and time, all of that is cooking.That's baking, that's sauteing, that's all physics.And it really came into play
I guess, eight, nine years ago when I started designing food equipment for HSN.So I was on HSN, as you know, for six years, all the way before COVID.
And using, actually, PV equals NRT, a new pressure cooker, a rotating cooker, an air fryer, because it's a flow of energy, so let's make it more of a tornado.
All of those things started applying, and my dad was even, I won't say he was impressed, but he was, Psyched to see I was using some of my Yale degree.I was not inventing any airplane or anything, right?
But I do think training the mind is so important, regardless of what you do.I mean, look, basically every Wall Street firm rather hire an MIT engineer than any other type of student.
They want people that can handle everything. I'm lucky that my amazing wife is so great with spreadsheets.She was a lawyer and all of that.And so she does that.And to be honest, I'm not good at it.
I was a very creative person with publishing and all of that. So, but I have her on the other side.It's just great at doing that.But I think when you were at Yale, didn't you start going to Le Cordon Bleu?
Where was that?I'll tell you a great story.Freshman year, one of my dad's partners, his company's called ThinkComposite, TFE Massard lived in Paris, so he ran Europe for my dad.
So I luckily, through my dad, became an employee and got a carte de séjour so I could work in France as an engineer.
But I took that paper to then work in France as a cook, because it was impossible to get papers, carte de séjour, for me to replace a French cook.Because you have to be like, how does he get better cook than all the other cooks we have in France?
I'm not.But an engineer, that's how that works.Anyway, so every summer I started going to France. Cordon Bleu my junior year, and that's when I discovered, oh, the French can cook too.Because up until that, I only knew Chinese technique, right?
Wok stirring and steaming and frying, and I knew nothing about pastries and desserts, because Chinese cuisine, we don't really have it, right?We just never had milk for hundreds and hundreds of years.
And I started at Cordon Bleu, I'm like, wow, this is creme pâtissière, this is how you make pastry cream, this is creme anglaise.I didn't know creme anglaise was the base for every ice cream in the world.
I mean, this is like revelatory that a creme anglaise, creme anglaise is where you make ice cream from.
As it happened, of course, as the name suggests, it comes from England.
I understand.I know.I had a big argument with a CIA grad once who was arguing, you got to make creme anglaise with cream.I'm like, that's the reason it was created is people couldn't afford cream.So they would make creme anglaise with milk and eggs.
That's the creation of it.So using cream is like cheating.And it's a lot easier to make creme anglaise with cream, by the way.In any case, after junior year, I realized that I want to make French cuisine.That name didn't stick, thank God.
French, Chinese.I wanted to blend.I'm like, these are the two best cuisines in the world.Yes, the Italian and Japanese chefs will argue all day long, but they're the two oldest.
No, no, hold on.What about Indian cooking, which is with Persian and Indian and mixed together?
You're a historian, although the first recorded food item was a bowl of noodles in China. And they could tell that it was a chicken broth base.He was covered by a volcano, by molten lava, and was petrified.
Literally, I mean, not scared, but petrified.And they rediscovered this.And he was also scared, I'm sure.And that predated any other possible food anywhere in the world.So I'll get you that tidbit.That was thousands of years ago.
But to your point, and for me, Chinese and french are the two world because of the ones i don't so i'm like i'm gonna do for news.
I came back junior year i sat my parents down again my dad's a rocket scientist my mom you seen my shows she was the most brilliant.Awesome just cook and mom and just full of white no i'm so my god i want to know you back right you met my mom.
No i didn't meet her but i have seen her.
Yeah, she's amazing.And so I sat him down and I remember distinctly, we're at a dinner table.I'm like, guys, listen, I don't want to be an engineer.And it wasn't a shock, right?They knew I was in Paris cooking and all this.
I am going to finish the degree because you got to get your bachelor's.You spent all this money at Yale.So don't worry, I'm going to graduate.But the next week after graduation, I want to move to Paris and I want to cook.
And my mom got up, gave me a big hug, says, you're so lucky at your young age.You already know your passion.Promise you have 110%.We wholly support you.Now keep in mind, these are Chinese parents born in Beijing.So they're traditional.
They could have been traditional Chinese parents.It's like, I can't believe you're going to cook.And for the record, for those that don't know the history, when Chinese first came to this country, was we built railroads, right?
We literally all men only came to build all the railroads.And then it was a gold rush, still only men.And then San Francisco, so Chinatown, the only mid to 80s Chinese men could do because they couldn't speak English was cook.Right.
And yes, there's some laundromats too, but mostly cook.And that's that was the creation of Chinatown in San Francisco.So here I am going to end over Yale, Cornell, all this great education, I want to go cook.
So I'm really going to ask backwards everything possible.But The best way to say my parents are just cool.They were both schooled in America.
So they weren't the traditional, traditional Chinese parents that, thank God, because they would not allow me to do what I did.So my mom gives me a hug.
My dad, again, the rocket scientist says, son, you weren't going to be a very good engineer anyway.Go cook.
He's like, he's so right.If you don't love what you do, you have no chance of being good at it.
Forget about great at it, you will never be good at it.So they knew that.And I do, I do very happily translate to my children.I want them to do what makes them happy.Because that's the most important thing.It's not what I want them to do.
It's what they want to do.And that's, that's the best way to parent as far as I know, as long as they don't do something really stupid.
My my father was the same and indian and when he was in india he was a doctor or he comes from the line of doctors going back five hundred years and six hundred years and he had to be but all our family he said whatever you want to do.
You do whatever you want to do you work this is fantastic because you work for me and you work for a sushi bus to call back.I mean all the chefs that you worked with when you're in paris when you're in japan when you.
You must have had, I never met any of these people and these were, you know, you're younger than me and I just wanted to know what it was like to meet these incredible chefs because I never, I sometimes ate in their restaurants but never met them.
Pierre Hermes still, today, reputed to be the best pastry chef in the world, right?I mean, Pierre Hermes is all over France and Japan and he was the youngest executive pastry chef. Yeah, he's heavy.
He was the youngest executive pastry chef ever at Fauchon, like at 27.And Fauchon, if you don't know, unfortunately COVID closed it, was the best pastry house in Paris at Place Madeleine.Actually, I was there for their 200th anniversary.
I was working there at the time of the celebration.I've never seen so much caviar in my life. I mean, that celebration, it didn't log on to rain.Simon, you would have had a, we cooked for 24 hours, literally for that party.
Everyone was there, the president of the family, everyone was there.
That sounds like the party I need to be at.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.Pierre, Pierre was just a master of everything, pastries.I mean, all his crepes and his croissants.I learned, the one thing I learned from Pierre, I mean, is it's either perfect or it's not.
Example, we had a five-deck oven, pain au chocolat, croissant, all these beautiful breakfast pastries.Their croissants were this big.They were 10 francs a pop.Back then, Paris, it was five francs for a regular croissant.
Pochon was double, and it was worth every penny.They were the most perfect croissant. right?And they used to have something called a box.So by the oven, there was a box.
And when they came out, if there was a nick, a little piece of flake that was off of it, they wouldn't sell it.It would get into the box.So we ate fresh, warm croissants.And the rule of croissants is you eat as much as you want of everything.
Because within three weeks, you don't start sneaking chocolate.You're just done, right?And America is like, you can't eat anything.And what does everyone do?They sneak around and eat the beef tenderloin, right? So he was much smarter.
But it was just perfection.So the croissant had a little mark in the box.And that's how he did everything in his shop.And that was something like, wow, that's like 10 croissants wasted, but 90 croissants perfect.And hence they were $10 each.
I have a great story. He was, I came in at 4.30, 5 a.m., the normal time to come in in the morning, and there's 20 of us pastry cooks, right?
I'm the lowest on the total poll, and he was already there, and he was over the Cuizar, which is this big copper 220-volt contraption, all copper.Do you make ganache?
You make all your sauces, and he's sweating over it, and there's this liquid puree thing, and he's swearing at it.Who taught him that, man?I'm so efficient, this is making me so pissed off.
And I'm like, chef, and you don't speak to the chef very often, right?You just like, bonjour, chef, au revoir, chef, that's it, unless he asks you a question.You don't be like, how was your day?How was your weekend?
You don't do that with chefs in France.That was, if they spoke to you, you responded.But I did ask him, like, chef, qu'est-ce que c'est?What is this?He goes, ah, c'est la pentade.It's stupid pumpkin.And he took fresh pumpkin.He was cooking it.
And when you cook fresh pumpkin, it separates, you get all the water, and then you get this nasty puree.He was commissioned to make 20 pumpkin pies, U.S.
Embassy, at a very good price per pie, probably a hundred bucks a pie, but he had to make a pumpkin puree.And he'd never done it before, and he's trying to do it, and it wouldn't work.It just, you can't do it.
And I, and I'm, again, I'm the lowest on the tonal pole.I'm like, Jeff, maybe I can get you Pentel purée en bois.That can get you pumpkin purée in a can. That exists?How can you do that?
So I call my dad, who again, US Air Force, had access to the PX, which is right close to Placid, Maryland, the US Embassy.I walked in there because of connection with my father.I came back with three cases of Libby's pumpkin puree, right?
And I walk in, I am the proudest cook ever.He opens up the gate, he tries it, he goes, hey, I'm out. It was pretty good.They said, c'est quoi la recette?What's the recipe?And I showed them the Libby's can.And I said, let's hear it.
Condensed milk, eggs, puree.And he actually used that recipe off of the Libby's can and put it in a beautiful crust, a fourchon crust, charged $100 a pie.
I was a hero for a day.So anyway.
And I got to see him recently.
I'm so psyched.I saw him.I was so humbled. that during Blue Ginger's reign, so maybe 10-12 years ago, I get a phone call from the host, like, hey, just so you know, Chef Pierre Aimee is coming in for dinner.I'm like, excuse me?I'm like, Pierre who?
He goes, yeah, Pierre Aimee, he's at Harvard for an architectural something.I'm like, okay, thank you.And I'm thinking, architectural, maybe because he did all these pièces montées and things and whatnot.
And I told my pastry cooks, I think Pierre's coming in, like what?And sure enough, he showed up.He drove out from Cambridge to Wellesley, which is not, it's a half hour drive to come try my food.I could not have been more humbled by him visiting me.
And I could not have cooked more food in my life for him.But that's how this world works, right?Because he showed me so much.And literally, for me to be able to cook for him was one of my Proudest moments jack.
Oh i love that i'm gonna move back a bit that no well but forward rather.Because you are when did you get to the point where do you go.
I've done all this work now i'm gonna open my first restaurant and i want to know how that happened and you began to take.East west and i want to know where cuz i think you are one of the first people to go east west. Is that right?
So, credit goes, the first chef in this country that everyone knows is Wolfgang Puck.When he did chinoise.Yeah.Chinoise was literally blending Eastern and Western Technician ingredients.
Yeah, well, Wolfie gets credit for doing, you know, when he had chinois, that was the paramount East-West restaurant in the country.My mentor was a gentleman you would know, Ken Ham, because he spends a ton of time in England and France.
So Ken Ham is really the father of East-West cuisine, right?He wrote East Meets West a long time ago, and I got to work with Ken when I was sous chef at Silks at the Mandarin Oriental Hotel with Ken Oranger.
Ken Oranger and I were co-sous chefs at Silks, in 1991, and Ken, and we both took the job because Ken Ham was a consulting chef.And Ken Orange's East West food is his best food, I think, of everything he cooks.
So we got to meet Ken, and that's how I really, Ken really is, we met, and we had a lot in common, right?I trained in France, like he did.He was born out of Hong Kong, I'm Chinese, and we love France, we love Chinese.
He's like, he's literally, when I was cooking on the line, we were doing our events together, he's like, stick to this cuisine.This is not a trend.This is not a fad.
Chinese cuisine and French cuisine are here to stay forever and propagate it because there's plenty of Italian chefs, there's plenty of Mediterranean chefs, there's plenty of French chefs.Make your own niche and do it the best.
Ken's advice there was obviously paramount for my career. Your question though, how I ended up deciding I needed it to myself, like you just said how your wife is like your right side and it can straighten you out.
My wife said, quote, you need to open a restaurant and be chef owner. because you gotta stop getting fired.That's a true story.Because I opened a restaurant in Palo Alto.I won't name the name, but it was an Asian style restaurant.
And I did everything for this person.And this person ended up like a Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde.And after I hurt my back and I did everything, he was like, oh, you're young, you'll get a new job.I get fired. And then I go to the next restaurant.
And this is a great one in Santa Fe.I did East meets Southwest cuisine, which sounds a little bit convoluted and forced, but actually is not.Think about this.You'd really appreciate this.
The flavor profile, quite often in Mexican food, down in the South, cilantro, chilies, lime juice.Well, those are the exact same ingredients in Thai food, in all over Southeast Asia, right?Lime juice, cilantro, chilies.
So, Eastern and Southwest was actually not a stretch to do.You got to use acid and chilies and this.And so, I did this, and I did this great job for two years.I got them the highest ratings they got.
I brought the first James Beard dinner to New Mexico. And they're like, oh, you're young.Sorry, you're too expensive.I get fired again. And honestly, Simon, I didn't do anything bad.I didn't steal.I didn't have an affair.None of that.
I just got fired.So my wife was like, all right, you're now at the point in your career.You got to be a chef owner.And that's when we moved to Boston.And then we did the big search.And then we found this great grocery store in Wellesley.
And Wellesley was, for those that want to open their own restaurant, it's a lot different now.The most important thing, I still think, and Cornell did teach me this, is location, location, location.You have to pick a place.So in Wellesley,
I didn't have to be the best East West restaurant or Asian restaurant.
I just had to be a decent restaurant because there weren't very good restaurants in the entire town of Wellesley with people with money.I don't care if you're rich, but if you do travel, you do appreciate good food and good wine.
So I wanted to provide that.So I built where there was no competition. So even a slow day, we still did okay, because there just wasn't any other restaurants.So I think, I think the market research is paramount.
I mean, obviously, if you're the best chef, and if you're Grant Atkins, you could open up in New York, and you could do that.Sure.But no one is a Grant Atkins or Thomas Keller starting.No one is.So try to pick a place that you know,
Even if your food is not the best in the world yet, but it's still just really solid and good, you will make money and keep a business.Just build where there's not 50 restaurants around you that can do the same or even better.
I think that's paramount for businesses.
I love how you mentioned that because I remember when we went to Wesley, my brother-in-law, he took me up there and we all went there together and we had a fantastic meal.
And I remember, I think it was almost like a Taiwanese pork chop, which to me is one of the great meals I ever had when I was in Taiwan. And it was something like the pork chop, but it was so good.It was so good.
So I think from that point of view, it was fantastic.I just absolutely loved that.And we drove up.I can't remember exactly where he lived, but we drove all the way up there, and it was fantastic.
But a lot of that kind of East-West that has opened since then, there's been a lot of that.So they don't work.So why do you think? the kind of fusion or, you know, we say sometimes in America, you know, confusion.And can you start talking about that?
Because sometimes people, you know, we've got in London, and it's actually been working a long time.It's a kind of Jewish fish and chip shop.And they kind of mix it all together.But it's very good.And it's very, very popular.
So I'm trying to think how some work and some just don't.Is that because they're not because of the food, but because of their others?They're, you know, they're not being able to do the, you know, the spreadsheets not being able to do all those?
Or is it because I think it's just, I mean, you mentioned it.
And I think I think bad Chinese food is bad, but bad fusion food is worse.Because you said it, it's called confusion.Because here's the skinny. I think you have to earn the right to blend cuisines.
And what I mean by that is, learn traditionally first how the Chinese treat sesame oil.Because we even put a tablespoon of sesame oil in two gallons of chicken stock, right?Because it's so strong.
Learn how the Thais buy lemongrass and treat lemongrass and break lemongrass down.This is the white part only, not this part.Learn how the Japanese treat wasabi.You're not going to, because every young cook can get every ingredient in the world.
And they can create a vinaigrette with lemongrass and peanut butter and escargot that is like, voila, this has never been done before.Well, there's a reason it's never been done before, because it tastes horrible, right?
Don't cook to do something that's never been done before.
Cook to make something delicious based on your training.So when I say you need to earn the right to blend, learn how the French treat, you know, the oversaw, how they treat that fish. and learn how the Chinese use fermented black beans.
We never use a handful of that in any sauce, right?Two or three, because they're so strong.Once you learn traditionally, and then I was lucky.I actually got to go to Japan and work with Kobayashi.
If you don't have that opportunity, go find the best Japanese restaurant in your town.There's still a Japanese chef there, and find out and watch and see how they grate wasabi or use their soy sauce.
Once you learn the traditional ways of using these ingredients and techniques, you then earn the right to start blending. But if you blend without understanding the base, you're going to end up with horrible Confucian food.
And I think that's why when someone says we're a Confucian restaurant, I'd rather go to the Chinese place.Now, granted, there was Grey Coons.Grey Coons was a master, right?
I went to his restaurants two or three times.
But he did exactly what I'm talking about.He learned French food.He went to Asia and trained.He earned the right to do the food he did.
And it was phenomenal, right?I mean, really unparalleled.His food was just delicious. Not every dish I do, every dish any chef does is going to be spectacular.Of course not.
But I do think, and by the way, you're never going to be a great French cook if you don't learn the basics of French food either, right?So no, I'm not saying anything that's different than any other food, but I do think if you
You want to start blending some really different bold flavors from Thailand with France or, you know, Sichuan province, right?
And Italian food, you really need to understand how the nuances of those flavors and then how cooking it brings out the flavors to blend.I think that's the key.
Oh, I think that's perfect.The way you answer that is, you know, and I know Greg Coons.And in fact, I went in the back there.He doesn't remember, but that's where I first met Rocco Dispirito.He was a saucier there.I still remember him.
And that was the first time I was ever taken around the kitchen, which coming from London at the time was very fun.
I mean, that is one of the reasons Rocco is so good is Greg Coons. 100%.And true story, I almost got a job in New York.I was trying out for a job and they just like, we're going to call it Union Pacific.That's the working title.
It was actually Union Pacific.And it was me and one other chef left for the job.And I cook my heart out.And this guy cooked his heart out.And then I find out the next day that I didn't get it.
And this guy named Rocco de Spirito, so I call him can order like, the hell is this Italian guy that just that cooks better than me East West and Kenny's like, Oh, no, Rocco is legit.He's a fantastic cook.
And you should not be sad that you lost to him.He's one of the best.And sure enough, when I went to, you know, Union Pacific and two months later, He's, oh my god, his scallop mustard oil.I mean, Braco is, I, Braco because of Braco.
I always used to see him there.He never knew me at that point.And he was always the food there.
And I'd sit at the bar, I think, and just have... And then before I got the plane back to the UK... Okay, let's... Can we... I hope you don't mind me keeping you a little while, because I've got... No, Simon, I love chatting with you, man.
Oh, this is fantastic.And I hope people at home are enjoying this because Mim's got so much about this.
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Subscribe, recommend us to your family and friends, and give us a good rating on your favourite podcast provided.Thank you.Goodbye from me, Simon Majumder.We'll speak to you soon on the next episode of Eat My Globe.
Things you didn't know you didn't know about food.The Eat My Globe podcast is a production of It's Not Much But It's Ours and Producer Girl Productions.
We would also like to thank Sybil Villanueva for all of her help, both with the editing of the transcripts and essential help with the research.
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