Welcome back to Jokerman in Conversation.I'm Ian.Today, speaking with friend of the pond, Tim Heidecker, and a first-time guest, Eliana Atheid, better known as the bass player in Tim's Very Good Band, here today to talk about slipping away.
out on Bloodshot Records.Long-time listeners will know, of course, Tim has made several delightful appearances on the program, talking about several of our favorite artists, most recently Randy Newman and a couple classic Bob Dylan appearances.
But here today, he's talking about his own shit, his own music, this excellent, you know, classic, classical new record that he's got coming out.Not classical as in music, but just classical as in just
It's another great, tidy little package of songs.We talk a little bit about that in the conversation.
the approach to music-making, record-making, I should say, more specifically, that, you know, I've imprinted on, I love, I know, I feel comfortable with, and that, you know, I imagine listeners out there feel similarly, too.It's a wonderful chat.
Wonderful.You'll hear wonderful out of my mouth a couple more times on this episode, as it always is when Tim comes through.Here are Eliana and Tim.
better in the morning I am better when I slept all night and in the morning I am better in the morning I
I love seeing you both there in the Office Hours studio in a very different context than I'm usually witnessing things go on in that room.Yeah, exactly.There's no Doug, no Vic.It's just the two of you.Well, welcome.
We're here to talk about, of course, wonderful new record, Slipping Away, out soon, actually.This episode's gonna come out just before the record drops.Hope that's okay with you guys. But coming soon to all music platforms out there.
And it's really a, it's a wonderful record.You've said wonderful three times now.That's sort of a crutch of mine.I'll see if I can keep that in check.
That's the only superlative you can come up with for the record?
Tremendous, outrageous, extraordinary.But the actual descriptor I wanted to use was cohesive and unified, I think, in a good way, in a really strong way.It's warm.
We're gonna laugh through a lot of this.I mean, look, it's funny what you do, and I'm much more comfortable talking about other people's work.That's why I brought Ellie in here with me, because It's a little embarrassing, but continue.I apologize.
It's all right.It's going to be a fun chat.We're going to have fun.That's what we like to have fun, as is said often.Anyways, it's warm.It's natural.It's easy.It's got a little country rock flavor to it here and there, which I really dig.
Just what do you credit the new sound to?
Well, that particular sound would be Connor, our guitar player.And the songwriting, I think, starts with the songwriting.So some of them come from a sort of a country bass place.Bass place?Okay. Yeah.I don't think there's any country songs on it.
What do you think, Ellie?There's just country tones, country sounds.
This is the discussion we were just having about the difference between country and Americana.
Yes.We were down in Americana Fest in Nashville this weekend. And I think we decided that Americana is country music for people that aren't planning on voting for Donald Trump.Sure.
People who live in Los Angeles, basically.Yeah.
Yeah, you know, you think of like, I don't know, Uncle Tupelo or, you know, Wilco or stuff like that, that you would never describe as country, but at the same time, obviously has like some tones and textures in common with, you know, the country classics.
I feel like it's a similar approach here on this record, whether that was conscious or not, but I think the new, you know, cohesive, very good band unit that you've got behind you is, to my ear, at least really playing a big part on this record.
Absolutely.I think that was my intention going in, because we had just played 30-some shows, I guess, in 2022.And after that, I just wanted to keep the band together and figure out a way to do another thing.It was hard to tour right away.
So I had started building up songs and just booked everybody for a couple weeks at the beginning of the next year, just to make a record for sure. I wanted to get these songs out, but also just to do another thing with this group of people.
Eliana, what is your, because I must confess, I'm a little more familiar with Tim's output than I am with yours.I hope you're not too offended by that.
I'm just gonna leave now, thank you.
Yeah, but where did you come from?How did you link up with Tim and what do you feel like you're bringing, have brought, will bring to the whole vibe with this stuff?
Yeah, well, I've been in Los Angeles for about 15 years just as like a freelance bass player, singer, string player.And I met Tim when he was making his Fear of Death record.
Great record.Yeah, and Drew Erickson, a really great keyboard player, was kind of, I don't know, co-producing that record.And he put the band together.And at the time, I was also touring with Wiseblood.
So yeah, I just met Tim for like, I think we were only in the studio for a few days.Because it was basically me and Josh Adams were A rhythm section for half of the record.And Rado and Stella were
It was Stella Mosgawa and Zach Dawes.
They were the second half.Actually, the first couple of dates on that record were those two, and then you guys came in as the second half.
Okay.And I remember so distinctly, you were so respectful of the musicians.We didn't really know you at all, and you kind of never know when you're going into a session with someone, are they gonna be like, control freak?
Are they going to have bad ideas that they insist are good ideas?And you just kind of have to bite your tongue and be like, my name will be on this.
Um, but yeah, it's so distinctly remember, like you just were like, so excited about the musicians in the room.And like, it was just a really fun process.
And then, uh, a number of years later was when I got the call to do the tour and it, the drummer, Josh Adams is like, I think he's just one of the greatest drummers of our time.He's a wonderful drummer.
He's like our generation's Keltner.Yeah.Oh boy.Like in this little world of ours, like in the indie rock session world.He's playing with Cat Power right now on her tour.The Dylan 66 thing?Yes, to tie it into the podcast.Very cool.Hell yeah.
I'd love your thoughts on that, but more on that later.Anyways, continue.
Oh, yeah, well, that that was just about enough to get me in on the tour was like Josh Adams is playing drums as a bass player to get to play with a drummer like that for that long.It's kind of in.
And the thing I was thinking about, when you were talking about this record is like we we toured for five weeks, and we had four days off. Jeez.In those five weeks.
You know, cause we did like our warmup shows in LA and then we hit the road and there were, there were just four days off and we all were sleeping on the bus every night.Like, we'll let you know, Tim's not a diva.
He doesn't like book a room while the rest of us sleep on the bus.Like we were all eating our meals together, like playing every day.Um, and that's so special when you can get to the end of a run like that and you're like,
Sad to leave each other also like what were we doing on those four days off?Oh Probably hanging out hanging out.
Yeah.No, we would spend like the whole day together.Yeah Yeah, so I guess that's how I got involved and I'm so grateful to be here
And I mean, yes, I mean, you don't have to talk shop, I mean, you don't have to say, you don't have to shit talk, but that's not always the case.
No, absolutely not.Even with the most wonderful people, you'll get to the end of a tour and be like, I love you, goodbye for a long time, I hope.And yeah, it was really remarkable, the friendship that we all found.
Beautiful.That's I mean, that's that's magic.
That's what you what you love to hear in these circumstances especially because like it it is not a given especially I think honestly kind of like the way that you put the band together Tim where like it is working under your name, you know, it's just Tim Heider and then you're just like calling these people in and you're doing it for good reasons, you know, you know, you're gonna have great players with you but like
you're kind of taking a chance in terms of like, how is that gonna vibe?How is that gonna gel?Especially when you're doing, what did you just say, Elliana, like five weeks with four nights out?
Like that's a pressure cooker type of situation, you know?
Yeah, I didn't know these people very well.I knew that they came highly recommended as musicians, but you never know who's gonna be a dud as a hang, as a person.And it was the opposite.Yeah, that Vic Berger, he's a bit of a dud.
Well, listen, let's put that aside for a second, because that's a whole other conversation. Well, the funny thing was I had toured for 10 years with Tim and Eric stuff.
I had been on the bus, I had done the show Every Night World, and everybody else kind of had too, except for Vic.So that first tour is pretty... It was like... Well, we were still trying to be COVID careful too.
And I remember Vic just wanted to go to karaoke every single night.He was a kid in a candy store.Party animal.
It was a little... Yeah, but it's like, that's what you should do your first run on... Your first time out.It's a remarkable thing that you get to do, to go to a new town every night and have... The crowds were really excited to see him and
meet him afterwards, and I'm all over that part of it.I like to... That's not entirely true, but that thrill of...
getting out there for the first time is real, and I'm doing it for other reasons than that, like meeting people and going out afterwards and stuff.And you have to protect yourself and stay healthy too.
But yeah, so we were living vicariously through him a little bit. And, but I think like Ellie and I got, we got along really well, pretty quickly and synced up on, you know, there's all these like little... I still don't know why.
I know why, because you're very funny, like, and I kind of connect with funny people.You might have heard, you know, that might make sense to you.
We're getting the deep, dark depths of Tim Heidegger's story here.He connects to funny people.What's that about?But we synced up like, hey, do you want to get coffee?That kind of thing.I guess our cycles, our tour cycles.
And then she's sort of also... Everybody in the band's super musically talented, but you're very much trained in it.You've come from the classical jazz school of it.So she's kind of musical director vibe of the band.
She can translate some of my ideas into things that make sense for everybody.And that became very helpful with the record coming off the road. not only do we get along, but like, you know, I could just talk to her about a song idea or something.
Sure.I think the other reason you like me is that I am the least familiar with all your work.That's true.As a as a 33 year old woman, I am a woman now.Well, I will say girl, the 33 year old girl, gal, I have spent my
Lifetime being shown tim heidecker's work by the various guys come in and out of my life and so i'm familiar and think it's cool but like i'm.
She's not starstruck or anything.
Right.And so I will confidently tell him I think something could be better.I think that's the hard thing about making a record is that balance between how do you tell someone that's not your best work with love.
And I think that's maybe a mode of communication that we are very comfortable with.Yes.He tells me when my ideas suck.And I tell him, I don't know.I don't put it that way.Yeah, no.
It's usually about the shirts I'm choosing to wear.I've noticed you in the Jokerman shirt out there a couple times recently.I love to see that.I know, I bet.I like the shirt.People have been very excited about, you know, spawning you.
We get nine DMs, all of the same post of you from a bunch of people.It's very sweet.Thank you everyone for sending us those.
I met somebody on the street in Asbury Park and they were wearing the Lou Reed version of that shirt.Oh, wow.
Yeah. Beautiful.Meaning of the minds there.Well, I mean, that all makes perfect sense.
I did kind of want to touch on that or, you know, talk about this element of like collaborators, I think, because you've got a great history of doing that, obviously, you know, in terms of, you know, your work across
all of the mediums that you've worked in, but musically, you know, in particular, whether it like Rado, you know, friend of the pod, has, you've done a ton of work with him.
You know, Natalie from Wise Blood, Josh, you know, Father John Mistry, and now obviously the Very Good Band.I guess just like- Mac DeMarco.
Mac DeMarco.On the high school record, he was a big part of that.
I'm just, I'm endlessly impressed, I think, with your ability to kind of, like, link up with and integrate all of these different artists, all of whom I love, but all of whom are pretty, like, different or, like, bring their own kind of thing to the project, but find a way to kind of make it all work and tie it all together within your realm of things.
Have you been conscious of trying to introduce as many disparate influences as possible, or has it been more of a natural progression over time?
I'd say natural.I mean, it's almost all of those examples are happenstance.They're just like... I mean,
Some of it is thoughtful and considered who to work with, who not to work with, but all these people are more talented than I am musically, but also like me, probably a lot of them grew up with my comedy or knew my comedy.
and like making music, and it's sometimes just that simple, I think.I'm coming to them, and they're playing to their strengths and shoring up my weaknesses, of which there are many.
It was intimidating, I remember feeling.Intimidating?Intimidating.Intimidating to make this record.
To me, I remember feeling this sense of like, you've worked with a lot of people who are known entities, like the Very Good Band is an entity that you kind of created.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.
And we, just to get into the record specifically, we jumped in the deep end right away.It was very quick.We didn't stop and consider very much.It was just like, let's start making these songs.
It happened very quickly because there isn't a lot of time, ultimately.That's the reality of it.
Yeah, I think the press packet said a lot of these are first or second take tracks, right?
Yeah. And that's a testament to how simple the songs are, first of all.
But more importantly... But how good the band is, and how instinctual they are, and how well we all play together, and everyone has good taste, so you're not like... Josh's instincts are pretty good on the first run through, and Same with Connor.
To me, I think every record I love, and we could talk about records I love or that I've talked about on this show, on your show, but maybe you agree with this, Ian, that most great records have a palette.
a palette of sounds that are consistent through the record.You could say Desire by Dylan has Emmylou Harris and the violin player.Yeah, Scarlett Rivera's violin.Good records have a couple things that make them that record, sound-wise.
And this is Connor's incredible guitar playing and sounds that he gets from all his doohickeys and pedals and stuff.And Ellie's voice, like Ellie and me singing together.That is the thread that connects everything.
But I mean, back to Connor having great taste, great instincts, playing the right thing pretty much right away. I mean, no one really pays attention to the bass guitar, but it's all played competently.
I know how to get out of the way.
Competent, that's great.No clams, very few clams.
Was the, I think the duetting aspect of things is one of the most, you know, arresting elements of the record to me.
And I think that the way your guys' voices like kind of mesh together and, you know, sort of oil and vinegar type complimentary flavor is really beautiful.Frankly, was that kind of the,
Did you have that in mind going into this, or did you kind of just develop that naturally while you were in the studio?
I think on the tour we learned that our voices sound really good together, and I really love harmony and singing with somebody else.My voice, I don't have the greatest voice, so I think when somebody else is introduced to it, it helps.
the listening experience.Fair enough.
It's so funny, because you actually do have a very nice voice.Thank you.We'll just put that on the record.But I know what you mean, you're not a virtuosic singer or something.
I mean, yeah, so yeah, I mean, Ellie came in because I knew she could sing, because she could sing with Natalie, and she was going to basically be singing a lot of Wise Blood.
When I say Natalie, I mean Wise Blood, a lot of her parts on those songs when we played.So I knew she had a great voice, but I think what
getting to know you better and playing and hearing your own music, because Ellie makes her own music, and has a very distinctive voice, singing voice, when she's singing her own material.
Your voice sounds a lot like your voice with me, as opposed to when you sing with other people, correct?
Totally.It's sort of, that's been a very fun gift for me, because I love singing harmonies, and I've been very lucky to, like touring Wise Blood's Titanic Rising album, and
Currently I work with Waxahachie, like two amazing singers that I work very hard to just like perfectly blend into their voice, like really create a sonic illusion that you're just hearing them, but somehow they're in harmony.
And yeah, it was almost like a fun, strange challenge to realize that like, oh, with Tim, I actually just get to sing the way I sing.
Makes sense, yeah.It's, you know, you're not laboring under the illusion that it's just him singing all of these parts.
Yeah, that was just too hard, so I gave up.
What, I mean, Tim mentioned a minute ago, Elena, that like, I think you said like classically trained jazz stuff?Like, what kind of music do you, like, have you made and are you making on your own?
Well, I am lucky to come from a musical family.My mom is a classical violinist and teacher.My dad is a jazz pianist and teacher.I have two older sisters who are classical string players and a brother who's like a freak genius jazz phenom.
And I am the youngest.And so I kind of grew up in this house that had jazz and classical and Brazilian and Afro-Cuban and Motown and like, Rock, but actually not a lot of rock.
Tim has kind of... Ellie, I showed her a pic about a week into the tour.I showed her a picture of Jerry Garcia, and she's like, that's Jerry Garcia?
And I'm from the Bay Area.Yeah, she's from San Francisco.I should know, but I did not.I was very confused.Patron Saint.Yeah.It was in his sort of sweatpants.I was really confused by it.
I was like, that's the guitar player that so many guitar players I love, love.Okay. Um, but yeah, I, uh, I am originally an upright bass player.And so I, I studied jazz and classical bass in college and, um,
Yeah, for the first like seven years I was in LA, I mostly was playing jazz and country, like just a lot of in town residencies.I really learned to sing harmony with this guy, RT, whose band is called RT and the 44s.
And I would also sing at this bar, 1642 Beer and Wine, gotta drop the name because it's the best place.I would play there every Wednesday with a kind of like 40s jazz meets Western swing band.Oh boy.
The Honey... The Hi-Fi Honey Drops.They're great.They're still there every Wednesday.
And yeah, then my first touring gig was kind of with a retro soul throwback artist, who I won't name because I did not like working with them.And by the end of it, I was- Michael McDonald.It was Michael McDonald.
And by the end of it, I was like, gosh, I don't wanna be in that world.That didn't quite feel right for me.And so yeah. Around 2018 or 19.I feel like I sort of stepped into indie rock and I don't know.It just never looked back.Never looked back.
I still when I come home do all the other things I love to do But yeah, I feel like I've been living in indie rock world for a while now
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Has that been, like, uh, I don't know, like, challenging?Because, like, you know, I don't know, I don't know of too many indie rock units that, like, integrate stand-up bass into the sound necessarily.
Not that that's what you're doing, you know, on stage every night, but, like, just, it sounds like you come from a very, kind of, rich and robust and varied musical tradition or education background.
And so like, just like guitar, drums, electric bass type of thing seems almost like it's not child's toys necessarily, but like, you know, just a different kind of paradigm.
Yeah, well, you know, something I've kind of realized is it's actually the classical music upbringing that I think has helped me the most with being kind of like an indie rock touring musician.
I think a lot of my friends who I came up with playing jazz would be very bored at every night playing a song the way it is on the record.
And of course, there's different levels of that, you know, like for Wise Blood's Titanic Rising, we were really trying to do like exactly what's on the record. Waxahachie is also, we're playing it pretty close to the record.
Tim and the Very Good Band, I feel like because we all mesh so well, and I almost feel like this was part of your vision with these people, is like, it's like the band.It's the Rolling Thunder review.It's beautiful.
Yeah, it's like we're really playing every night.
And we're, yeah, we're mixing up the tempos and we're not going Dylan 97 or anything. We're not completely reinventing the wheel every night, but yeah, we're not... A little more flexible.A little more flexible, yeah.
But yeah, I think the funniest thing for me is that in the circles I'm in now, people tend to look to me for like, oh, Ellie's so good at music theory.
And in the world I come from, I feel like I'm kind of always the dumbest person in the world or in the room or the world, I don't know.
It's best to be the big fish in the small pond.
I guess.There you go.I guess.
Well, I think you're the perfectly sized fish in the perfectly sized pond.Thank you.
Thank you.In this case.Nicest thing anyone's ever said to me.Thank you.
I'm just trying to be a polite host here. Can we talk about a couple of the actual tracks on the record?Yeah, please.The first thing that struck out to me, or jumped out to me, struck out, maybe that's a Freudian flip here.Baseball.Baseball!
That's literally it, is baseball.Because it shows up here, obviously on Bottom of the 8th, but it's also kind of ambient, it's part of the story on Like I Do. at the same time, and those are the two that I'm remembering.
There may be other ones that are slipping my mind.Is that... The two big ones, yeah.
On a 10-album record, 20% of songs talking about baseball, pretty good.Is that just sort of a happy coincidence, or is there something more significant about baseball to you?
Well, it is a coincidence, I guess, but baseball is very important to me.It's gotten more and more important, and Ellie could tell you.
Between me and JP, our tour manager, who's also, I should say, when we talk about this touring unit, is a huge part of it, but doesn't... Not a musical part of it, but the vibe part of it and keeping the engine running.
you know, on the tours that were both summer tours, you know, after the game, after the shows, we were often just watching baseball games.
And yeah, I've become a huge Dodgers fan and baseball fan in general.So it's in my, it's in my, I'm thinking about it a lot.And in bottom of the eighth, I think, I started being on the road, I started thinking about baseball in those terms.
And we actually went to a minor league game on one of those four days off in Syracuse.So thinking about... Syracuse Mets.That's right.Yeah.Love it.AAA affiliate. Yeah, so that song is right out of that night, pretty much, I think.Incredible.
I think it was written about three days after that night, if I can remember.
Right, well, because also, I brought this beautiful, tiny little guitar on tour, and Tim was hogging it the whole time.He was doing a lot of writing on the bus.
Yeah.That one actually was written at a piano at the Carolina Theater, and right down the street from that theater is the Durham minor league team, the Bull Durhams, right?
You're gonna have to answer that question for me.I know the Mets affiliates for some reason, but the Durham one, that's gonna go over my head.
Well, there's that movie Bull Durham with Kevin Costner.Sure.Maybe you don't know, but anyways, yes, it was summertime.I mean, I think I could tell you, if you really wanna know this,
The night before in Washington, DC, we played at that weird church.Oh, yes.That was like a church, one of these new age, new Christian churches that are for hipsters, you know?
Right, non-denominational Christian church.
Yeah, yeah.We played at that place, which was a wild show, it was a very good show, but backstage was filled with this pastor's books, like all his books were in the green room.
But I was sitting outside, it was summertime, and I just had the line, I hear crickets chirping again, must be summer creeping in or whatever.
And next day we're at that theater, I see the baseball stadium, and I see the piano backstage, and just start cranking it out.
Beautiful.But thinking about baseball players who... The minor league players who aren't gonna... Live kind of a hard life and aren't gonna make it, probably.They're not gonna make it to the major leagues and don't get paid that well.
And I think that's the case, at least.Absolutely.And they do what we're doing.We're traveling every night and grinding it out. And then, yeah, thinking about my daughter has become a big baseball fan.
So when I'm away, I'm always thinking about them and the family.So it's one of my passions.
I love it.The more baseball, the better, as far as I'm concerned.Good, I'm glad you feel that way.
I think it's the greatest sport.And actually, another connection that Ellie and I have, I think is like, she's a baseball fan as well, but she's a Giants fan, so there's a little rivalry, a little fun rivalry.
Her mom doesn't like that I'm the Dodgers fan.
Loves everything about Tim except for that.
Except for the Dodgers fan.Well, we're kind of like trading places here.I mean, I'm in San Francisco, but I'm also a diehard Dodgers fan.So it's, you know.
Well, I love in the bottom of the eighth, Tim says, you say we'll leave at the bottom of the eighth anyway.And I was raised. with the notion that those lousy Dodgers fans, they show up late and they leave early, you know?Gotta beat the traffic.
Yeah, now I get it, because I live here.I'm like, of course.
It's hard getting out of Chavez Ravine, you know?
Well, yeah, fantastic stuff.
Sometimes I feel like a fish out of water myself in my little neck of the wood because I'm sort of a sports nut, at least when it comes to baseball and basketball, and it's not typically a subject area or focus of a lot of indie rockers and stuff.
There are some that are very, you know, interested in it, but in general, it's, you know, there's sort of a jocks versus artists rivalry sometimes.
Yeah, well, it is the artiest of sports.Absolutely.It's the least jockey of sports, I think.
You can have a potbelly, like, you know, that's cool.
Absolutely.And there's like a, I don't know, something charmingly sort of
old-fashioned about it and almost like noble you know depending on what the play like I feel like Clayton Kershaw is like a very noble individual when he's getting a pitch I mean this games been around since the 18 what 40s or something something like that yeah something there's a romance to it there's a romance and a legacy it's like we're doing our we're keeping it going by just walk by loving it absolutely
And then the record... So Bottom of the 8th is maybe the apex of the first side.It's a classic 10-song record, I'm guessing, five on side A, five on side B when the wax comes out.
And then... Yeah, the last song, I think... I think you'll appreciate this.I think the last song on the first side is something somewhere.And then the first song on the B side is Bows and Arrows.
Oh, so it's six songs on the first side, four on the second.Interesting.
Yeah, because I think I couldn't, I had to start the side B with Bows and Arrows just because of how the drum, how it starts.So yeah, it's not five and five.I stand corrected.
The entire premise of my question has been bullshit.No.
But the second side, the second half of the record, I feel like kind of takes a bit of a turn just in terms of subject matter and feeling of the record, particularly the last three songs, I think, you know, which like get- It's poor McCarthy territory, I think.
Yeah, it's like, you know, it starts at the beginning with just like some fantastic songs, but it's like, I got writer's block, I'm eating mushrooms, I'm hanging out with my kids, and then all of a sudden it's like,
The very antithesis of that at the very end, I guess, just can you talk a little bit about this sort of emotional arc of the record and the way that it builds up to that finish?
I think the idea is a classic concept album style record where I think side A is this idea of sort of before the fall, before the event of whatever the event is, if it's the pandemic or the nuclear war or zombies attacking or whatever meteor it is.
So there is this man at the end of this man, you know, who's in the middle of his life looking back, looking forward, wondering what is ahead and
Not terribly depressed about it, but sort of, you know, going through midlife... I don't want to say crisis, but that'd be the right word for it.And then you flip the side and something terrible has happened.
the characters on the second side are maybe... It's a little more like a collection of short stories than one person's experience.So that was kind of the idea.
And I had some more songs that were... There's the one song that really just didn't make it. It's a sad, sad story, because it's the most... Oh, that, yeah.
The song April, that was... I really worked hard on it, and I just couldn't... But from a writing perspective, it was the most like, this could be a movie or a short film or something, because it was really pretty... It was a short story about some horrible thing that happened, but I couldn't... I couldn't get it to where I was happy with it.
But anyway, so that was what we were thinking, or I was thinking, and you guys were agreeing with me, that that was the vibe of the record.
And then I think the title has this dual meaning to it, where it's like, in the tripping song, which is really when the only time you hear the term slipping away, it's this feeling of getting away, or being happy, or letting go.
And then slipping away on the second side, it's like it's all falling apart.
Dual meaning.Rich, rich, a lot of stuff to read into it.
Was April, is that a song, like when you said you couldn't get it to a place where you were happy with it, like in terms of the actual lyrics, the writing of it, or the way that it was coming together in the studio, both?
That's a good question.I think it was, the production of it wasn't there.The song, it was a little too Sincere.
I mean, it was a little too like, it was a very like Bruce Springsteen ballad song that, it's a fine line I'm writing here with like how, where it could easily become maudlin.Sure.
You know, and that one was like, yeah, it's like, it's a brother and sister, the sister dies.You know, there's great parts to it.
It was great.I remember coming into the studio one day and We were trying to get your vocal take because it yeah really it was one of those songs the lyrics it's you were painting like a really
really vivid picture of this brother and sister who are basically packing up their home to leave.Yeah, it's like a John Steinbeck situation.Yeah, the world is... You don't really know what's happening, but you know things are bad.
Yeah, the first line, Ian... I'd love to just talk about this song and do a whole show about why it doesn't work.Why doesn't it work?Can you hand me that guitar?
Because it's like... I haven't played this in a while, so I don't know if I can remember it.Let's hear it.
But I tell her we can wait.Something like that.
It's like, shit, this is bad news.Then it has this great chorus.
It's like, we can still sing without the stereo.Whoa.Yeah.
And she dies, and it's like. It's really sad.Wow, a lot going on there.Yeah, but at the same time, it could seem like a parody of that kind of song.That's what it was feeling like.
Can I say Vic's Worried?Now you have to let me pick a pick.
So there's a line that says... I'm a brother, but she's more... I'm a brother, but she's more than a sister.Whoa. That's the line.We'll be together till they say it's the end.Vic was like, well, go ahead.
Vic was really, in a very sincere Vic way, really concerned that people were gonna think it was an incest song.
I could kinda see that reading.Not that that's the primary one, but I kinda see where Vic is coming from.
She's more than a sister.She's more than a sister.
I'm like, well, that's gross, so forget it.
And yeah, the heart, it was so beautiful.I just remember coming in one day, and one of the boys in the room, not of the Very Good Band, another boy, had suggested you sing the melody down an octave.
And I came in that day, and they're like, listen to this, this is great.And I was sort of like, no.Suddenly I was Johnny Cash.Yeah, no, he can't do that.People are, that's too far.And it's, again, that fine line with you.
Yeah.Well, it's all about... It's good to cut... I think it's cool to cut songs.
Okay.You cut another one that I really liked.
Yeah, there's another... Like a rocker that... The Continental about the less... The Continental.A club closing down.
Sounds like there's a... You gotta have something for the bootleg series.
I was just gonna say, it sounds like we've got the Tim Heidecker bootleg series getting put together here.I'm sure there's some Cainthology cutting room floor songs that you get on there.
No, that was everything.There's a Buffalo use all the parts situation on that one.
I'm actually not shocked about that. That's a great record, Cainthology.R.I.P.to the big man.What was I gonna say?I'm just thinking about Herman Cain.
He died on the cross so many years ago, but now he's come back again.He has risen, my Lord Herman Cain.
He was crucified with nails in his hands But he did not die in vain He has come back, my Lord, Herman Cain Herman Cain, he's the second Herman Cain, he's the second
So you named in the press packet also, you kind of name check, you know, Bob and the Beatles and the band, just in terms of like a bunch of people playing in the room type records.
So it, and, and like we kind of already talked about, you know, a lot of these are kind of one, two take things.Although now it's sounding like you were doing, you know, some pretty deep work on a couple of tracks.
I guess in general, was this really just like a in and out, let's, let's make the music happen and be done with it and not be too precious about it?Well,
I think it's that the first, like on the Wells running dry video, you capture this where we're like, that's it, we're done.What we were done with was, the basic tracking, so just getting drums, bass, guitar.One guitar, yeah.
So sort of the foundation for each song was done in a few days, I want to say.It was very... About a week, yeah.Was it a full week?I think it was less.
I think it was a week of that full track, of the basic tracking, and then a week of overdubs with everybody coming in and doing various things.But yes, the band in a room playing together was very fun and easy and...
productive, but the second half of the process, the fine-tuning, the vocals, the overdubs, the mixing was hard.Most of it was also very fun and collaborative.
pain-free, but the finishing is the thing that took a long time and was not easy, which we don't need to get into why, but it involved other people.All right.We'll leave that stone undurned.It doesn't involve Vic.
Let me... Don't let people think that it's because... Clear the air.Vic didn't mix the record.No.
Were there, and I can't help but ask a question like this when you're name-checking, you know, people like Bob and the Beatles and the band, like were there specific records or songs or even like eras from any acts like that or other acts that you were using as sort of like a north star for this record?
I don't think so.I mean, it's all the music I love, that you probably also love and know that I love.The show is.Yeah.So I don't remember what our reference points were.
I mean, I definitely think every song has its grandfather or ancestor connection that helps us understand what I'm going for. Like the one I can think of is the, I went into town, it's like, this is a Leonard Cohen song.
Let's approach this like a Leonard Cohen song.
I mean, weird things, like the last song, Bells Are Ringing, was like a Wagner piece, their ring, their ring, right?The way that their ring starts.
Remember I was playing you that?Yeah, yeah, yeah.And it was like, let's do something like this, something big, big. So every song, and the bows and arrows was like, this feels like more songs about building and food, talking heads kind of thing.
I hear that, especially with Rado's little organ riff on there.I love that.Yeah, exactly.Infectious, that's a great touch.Thank you.Well, thank him.Thank him, yeah.That's what he does.He's the magic dust man.Totally.A little bit of Rado dust on top.
So I think it's like song to song.Obviously, the whole process, you're sitting going like, oh, the... this should be like a kind of a Stones-y riff, or this is like a Velvet Underground thing.And everybody knows the references so well.
Not Ellie, she doesn't know who Jerry Castillo is.She's just a bass player, so it doesn't matter.It's true. But you did a lot of the strings on this and like... Yeah, there's a lot of cello on here, right?
Love the cello.There's also some bowed... It's all cello.Most of the instruments on this record are actually cello going through different pedals.Right.
There's some bowed upright bass that I'm excited for people to maybe think is a cello.That's exciting for me to fool people.
Beautiful.It's a rich, you know, kind of a palette that you're drawing from musically.And I mean, honestly, I'm just a sucker for pedal steel anytime that shows up, to be honest, but like the pedal steel that's on here is some of my favorite shit.
Yeah.And that's, I mean, Connor is, like I've said earlier, such a secret weapon and a sweetheart of a man, good man and tasteful and unbelievably talented.Like everything he plays is the right thing to play.
Hell yeah, salute to Connor, salute to the pedestal.
There's something kind of like, looking back at things now, because honestly, you know, I was looking at the Tim Heidecker discography section on Wikipedia earlier today, which is a very long thing and it's split up into a whole bunch of different sections.
And honestly, there's like 15 entries on there at this point, dating back to the Tim Heidecker masterpiece, which I don't even know what that is to be honest, it's a 2000 working vacation.Just it's... I know what it is.
I'm sure you do, I would assume you do.
I don't know, hopefully you're just as in the dark on this as I am, Ellie.
But I just like, I feel like there's something decidedly kind of like retro and like workmanlike, I think just in the way that you've kind of every, with larger or shorter breaks here and there, whatever, but like every year, every two years, every three years, just like here's a new...
here's a new record and there's a whole new concept and like then we're then we're on to the next one there it's it's very much how you know the all the artists that we've been talking about you know the bobs the mccartneys like jackson brown someone like that used to used to put records out in the 70s and the 80s just like here's one a couple years later here's the next one and and i feel like that approach to music making has kind of been
lost or tamped down, especially in the streaming era, you know, when records are so worthless, you know, to use a harsh term to many people, you know, you just don't listen to records and you certainly don't buy them unless you're, you know, someone like me.
I guess just how much of that has been a conscious aim on your part or how much of it is just kind of the way that you naturally go about music making?
Well, I think I'm a big fan of record.
I grew up thinking about music through records, through collections of songs that are intentionally put together that way, and are very much, like I said earlier, the kind of continuity of the songs and the sounds, and having the physical product and having the thing.
If they're not necessarily a concept album, they at least feel like Weezer's The Blue album, like their first album.Those songs are all meant to be together, right?Where it might not be a concept album.
So I just want to approach when I put music out that I'm putting that much thought into it.This is going to be a thing that exists, that all works together.
I don't know, it's a lot of... I put out songs if something comes to me, I want to put the song out, I'll put it out every once in a while.
I don't know, I just let songs pile up, and when I have enough to make a record that feels like they're about something, you know, I just go ahead and try to do it the best I can.
Well, I'm here to say keep doing it.Thank you.You're on a hot streak.I mean, In Glendale, Too Dumb for Suicide, What the Broken Hearted Do, Fear of Death, High School and Now Slipping Away, it's like, that's just... Cranking them out, man, I love it.
And here's the cool thing, is the MJ Lenderman situation.So MJ Lenderman, he's big time now.Heard of him. Yeah, he's coming up, and he did this Rolling Stone interview and was like, one of my big influences was what The Broken Hearted do.
Wow, that sailed right on by.
I didn't see that.That was in Rolling Stone.Wow, the Rolling Stone magazine.It's like, I'm planting some seeds out there, and I'm not doing The Tonight Show, but he is.
But... Sour grapes are bursting off the vine, but no, I mean, the point is that I put these things out and I don't know what happens to them, who listens to them and whatever, but I think it's... Every time we go out, there's people that are like,
man, I didn't know you did this."So there's those people, and they usually like what they see or hear.
And then there's people that are like, I've been loving your music from a totally different perspective than the comedy for years, and just singing along to the songs out there and stuff.So it's fun.
I mean, that was another element I wanted to ask about, is, you know, a lot of Tim Heidecker fans, quote-unquote, you know, are going to be interested in your music at this point, certainly given the breadth and quality that you've been achieving recently, but at the same time, you know, I'm sure there are plenty of other
quote-unquote Tim Heidegger fans who would be more like, you know, give me another season of Check It Out or Big Time Stories or something.
Are you ever, like, kind of concerned about audience expectations or, like, what different people would expect from you or want from you, you know, when you're pursuing things like this?
I'm not concerned.I was thinking, I was like, what would happen if Bob Dylan had Instagram in 1966?What would his comment section look like?That's a good point.And again, I'm not comparing myself to Bob Dylan in 1966.He would never.
I'm like Dylan, okay?I'm like the content.I'm like Dylan.My name, Tim Heidecker, means Dylan.It means Dylan.
Yeah, I just do what I want to do and hope for the best and hope that there's an equilibrium of, there's a median, I don't know what the word is, but there's enough people that are gonna be into it to make it worth everyone's while.
But of course, there's people... And people get real protective of what they like, and they're like... Somebody the other day was like, I hope that you don't make this your only thing, because we need you out there.And it was coming from a fan.
We need you to keep doing the comedy stuff.The world needs it.And that's obviously coming from a loving place, but It's also like, well, I can't help that I love doing this right now, but I also am not closing any doors.
I still want to make funny stuff and be funny and make on cinema, and I do office hours every week and act like a total idiot.I've got plenty of ideas.I've got lots of ideas. But it's not a great time to make stuff in that world either.
There's not a lot of stuff going on, if you've noticed.In the comedy world, you're saying?In the comedy world, yeah.
So I don't know, it's luckily... It's very busy musically right now, because the record's coming out, and I've been having fun touring, but Ellie, this will probably be the last one.Okay, great.
But it's been a lot of fun getting to know you, and all the best to you, and good luck with all your jazz and classical music.
It can serve as a reference for any future interviews, I'm sure.Cool.Put that on the CV, you know?You put all your eggs in this basket?
Yeah, I gotta go call my mom.
Hey, would you call my mom for me?Hey, there you go.I love that song.
I feel like that's... Maybe I just have Randy on the brain right now, because we've been doing all the Randy shit, but I feel like that... You were talking about using a particular kind of antecedent or thinking antecedent.
Right.Well, I mean, what about Bottom of the Eighth, though?Because Bottom of the Eighth is a Randy song.
I see that too.Don't you think?I do.I feel like, I guess maybe my problem is right now, we're in the mid-80s, Randy, like Trouble in Paradise, Land of Dreams, which is like a very sour, mean-spirited Randy Newman.
Right.But if I could get Randy to sing, some of them dudes... Some of them dudes.
Gonna be rich.Some of them dudes taking it pitch by pitch.Taking it pitch by pitch.Oh yeah, that's great.
Okay, I can hear that. Maybe next time he returns to office hours.
Well I have to tell you I did his daughter is a fan, and we've had him on the show, and I said, do you think he might wanna sing this one?I just threw it out there, and she was like, yeah, he might be into it.And they're like, yeah.
And he was, I couldn't land the plane on that one, but he was entertaining the idea.But what would that even be?Like, imagine like, you're listening to my record, and then there's Brandy singing one of the songs.It just feels, it's too weird.
I'm gonna keep manifesting that in reality.I'm sure AI could take care of that.
AI could just make that happen.Have Randy Newman sing this song.Boy, yeah.Finally, like a single good use for boiling all the fucking lakes in the continental United States.Let's get Randy Newman to sing a Tim Heidecker song.
And you guys have been, you were just on the road with Waxahachie, right?And I think Was it Socks for Mommy?
Snail Mail, sorry.Close.A lot of bands going through my brain.There are a lot of bands.There are a lot of bands.How was that? It was okay.
No, I'm just kidding.It was great.It was a new kind of challenge for me and Ellie, because Ellie played in both bands.Whoa.Two paychecks.She did double duty.Very nice.Yes, yes.Did you say two paychecks?
That's why I play music, is for the money.
She also has to get paid a third time by snail mail.She does their merch.Um, no, um, yeah, it was like the opening act, you know, um, and the warmup act.
He was great.He won them over.I'll say it because he won't, but I. had a tremendous, a wonderful amount of respect for what you did out there.
Because I think a lot of times now, you'll have these artists who, not to throw shade, but I guess some shade thrown, you have these artists who will just kind of get a big song on a playlist and suddenly they go from being, you know, kind of playing in their bedroom to like playing for huge crowds.
Sure, right. They will kind of melt down if they don't have a room full of like quiet, attentive, fascinated people.
And I think, you know, to me as somebody who came up like playing in bars, I'm like, first of all, you don't have the right to make anyone listen to you, you know?And second of all, like, yeah, earn it, you know, make them shut up.
And, you know, we were playing like, outdoor amphitheaters, and people are... Aren't you playing Central Park, right?
Yes.That was a little different, because that was actually me and Snail Mail co-headlining, and it was a free show.So it was like... I had a lot of fans there, more than at some of the Waxahachie shows.Sure, sure.
In general, they were... Yeah, they were like outdoor... What they call sheds in the business, like the Greek theater kind of places on the West Coast.But yeah, Yeah, it's people just getting there, getting their beer, getting their picnic set up.
And yeah, I think it was interesting, not to get too into the demographics, but I think Waxahachie, maybe it's because of these venues, but it was a little bit of an older crowd, a little bit more of maybe an affluent crowd, because I don't know, it's just those kind of places.
It was a mix, but I noticed that.And maybe the older crowd or the crowd that gets there earlier.Totally, totally.And I was kind of on my best behavior.I was being kind of funny and rocking and whatever, but...
I wasn't being actively antagonistic with anybody.
And the music we're playing... No performances of Lenny Bruce, I'm guessing, during the opening sets.
No singing about diarrhea or throwing pizza into the audience or hot dogs, which I would do 10 years ago. And I still might do one day, who knows, but you gotta know your room.Sure.
And then the music we're playing is like, they might not know everything or any of it, but it's kinda classic rock.
Roots rock.Yeah, and people, you could see... Totally.What does Eric Slick call them?The hard-boiled eggs?The bald men?Bald men.The bald rock band.Oh my God. That's a good one.You can see them nodding their heads and going like, that's pretty good.
Connor's a pretty good guitar player.Yeah. So overall, it was great.It was different than having a room full of people that are definitely there to see you, but I enjoyed the hell out of it.
And we were, again, hanging out with great... The band members were great, the venues were nice, eating Arby's on the road.Beautiful.Yeah.I can't complain.I had Arby's every day.Wow.Yeah, every day, two-week run.
I hope you got some fiber supplements or something.Pretty diverse menu.You know, you could do salad one day or you could do the chicken club, then you do the roast beef.So you don't do the fries every time.
Eating on tour, I'm thinking of this just because I had a couple guys on recently to do this book about eating on tour that Natalie actually wrote a little essay for.
That seems impossibly challenging to me as someone who eats kind of the same thing every day.
just having to figure out which of these random fast food restaurants on this, you know, roadside gas station pull-in thing is going to be the least bad option.Right.Seems hard.
Well, there's a big—well, you speak to it, Ellie, because it's a little different than my last tour.Because we were doing the van—this tour we're doing, we're in a van traveling during the day, to the venues.
So yes, we were stopping at like gas station-y kind of road stop places, which isn't usually what we would do on a bus tour.
Yeah.The eating is also like the great highlight.Like I think of the many wonderful meals we've gone to together, or even questionable meals, but that were fun.
And you know, nowadays you go to a venue and they've got the they've got a menu or they've got five places to get on Postmates or whatever, and somebody gets it to you.
You drop Yelp, Postmates, you can sign and dash.One of these apps on the phones.
And every... Like there is a sort of homogeny to the country that we get to see that's like, there is a hipster coffee shop in Omaha, Nebraska.
We're not playing in tiny towns that don't have... And it's a little sad, actually, because the individuality of these cities kind of starts to disappear when everybody has a Sweet Greens to choose from.Sweet Green.Yeah, I'm not a fan.
And also, there's a stability to that, if you're on the road and you're like, all right, get me that thing from Sweet Greens, it's fine. It's fine.
The reliability can be nice, but you know.
I will say, I want to out Tim right now publicly because this has caused me a lot of discomfort on the road, is that if you are eating a meal with Tim Heidecker and he has food on his face and you tell him, he says to you, I'm not done eating.
I'm still eating. And then you have to sit there across from him while he's got a big streak of mustard with crumbs in it on his little chin hairs.
I would clean my face if you asked.
I'm just clarifying like calm down, mom.
Well, that might be that might be a good place to wrap it there.Any other questions, concerns, comments you want to lodge before we go on our way?
Well, I mean, I'll plug the record and I'll plug the... Speaking of all this touring talk, we are back on the road.New tour coming up.Yeah.Yeah.
So that's gonna be in end of January, and it's all the wonderful places that you can imagine and find out on timheidecker.com. The band's all gonna be out there and we got, I'm gonna do some opening acts.
We got Neil Hamburger and DJ Doug Pound and a couple surprises of people that we can't announce right now.Not even on your podcast.
Oh, all right.Stay tuned.
RFK Jr is gonna be... Okay.At a few of these.No matter what happens in November, he's agreed to come out and talk about eating healthy.I'm glad he's got something lined up, even if Trump does this.
And yeah, I just like, I mean, with the record, like, I would love if people just gave the whole record a listen, you know, like, I think it is a sit down and it's a put it on record, as you might say.Absolutely.
It's kind of like a back to front or front to back listening experience.It's short, fairly short, and it's got a little, you know, arc to it.And it ends, like, I think you've talked about it on your show,
the argument for a strong ending or a big last song on a record is something I believe in, and some people probably don't, that you end up just throwing like the last song, it's like, eh, people aren't gonna hear this, I might as well just throw it on at the end.
But I think the last song's the sleeper of the record from what I've been hearing.
Very dramatic, you know, sort of left, you know, left turn there at the very, very end of the last song.I don't know, we can- No spoilers, we can do it.
We could do a no-spoiler situation.There we go.That's it.Ellie, what about you?What do you got?
I'm just glad people know about the food thing.No, I'm so excited for the tour.I think it's like, wow, our past tours have been so magical and that for this tour we get to have like Doug and Greg open.I think it's just going to be kind of
And we're gonna mix up the set, and I'm... I think people are worried, they're like, oh, what about the stand-up, the comedy?I'm like, the show's gonna be funny.Yeah, it's funny.I'm gonna be funny throughout.
It's not gonna be one of those shows where the band literally doesn't say a word to the audience and then just walks off stage.
No, no.I mean, I'm telling tales, I'm complaining about things, I'm playing Joe Walsh songs, we're playing... I did the Lenny Bruce song.I probably won't do that again, but I'll do something like that.It's gonna be really great.It'll be a fun show.
Wonderful.Yeah, I saw you guys, I think first night of the tour, you're here at Bimbos in San Francisco.So I will bother you to put me on the list if you have a spot available.Yes, he'll be on the list.
As Phil Braun on Office Hours, he's like, yeah, I'm gonna need two free tickets for Atlanta and for Birmingham, so two free tickets, please.
Bimbos is a great room though.Ellie, you're probably familiar with it as a San Francisco native, but if you've never been there, Tim, it's an incredible spot. Yeah, she's looking at me like, I don't know.
Well, this is crazy, because I moved to LA when I was 18.Oh, she didn't get that.But you can sit with my mom at the show and talk about baseball.
And she hasn't been to the show, has she?
No, she hasn't.And she saw all the great rock bands back in the day, so she's finally proud of me.She knows who Jerry Garcia is.Did I play in a rock band?Yes.
Well, thanks, Ian.Thank you guys.Wonderful chat.Again, the record is slipping away on... Oh, what label?I didn't even buy... It's slipping my mind.Bloodshot Records.Bloodshot Records.
Out of Chicago.They're like an outlaw country, alt country label that went out, I think, went out of business and has now come back under new ownership.New management.And they've got... They've got all kinds of money behind them, apparently.
We'll see.I haven't seen any of it.
They're about to have all sorts of more money in their coffers.Yeah, it's good.We're sitting on a platinum record here.
Oh, you know what?Here's my last thing.Ain't somebody out there.I don't care who they are. Somebody's gotta take any one of my damn songs, I don't give a shit which one it is, and make it go viral on TikTok.
It's gonna be hot piss, you know that.
Well, that you think would be the one.But I was talking to the Dr. Dog guys, and they just went platinum because a song from Shame Shame went out of nowhere, just got picked up by graduation.
Like baffling.Yeah, and the damn song went platinum.
And so see if someone could game the system.I can't do it myself, but somebody can just take... I'm talking a random song from one of my records, a random one. That's the Jokerman challenge.
All right, Jokerman audience, all of the 16-year-old e-boys and e-girls who are active on TikTok, listen to Jokerman.We'll give that task to you all.Tim, Ellie, thank you guys so much.
I went into town For the first time this year All the bookstores were shut down All the streets were all clear Nobody was around Even the rats were not here
Thanks again to our friends, Tim Heidecker and Eliana Afaid.
Got a lot of the plugging done there at the end of the actual conversation, but just for the hell of it, one more time, here in the button, the record is slipping away, and keep your eyes peeled.Go buy some tickets, actually.
I think sales are active and ongoing already.Tim Heidecker and the Very Good Band barnstorming across these United States this coming January 2025. Until next time, you know, joke around.
Back into my woods Back to my home Where I live alone So I lit a fire And I lit a smoke Thinking about the town Was this some kind of joke Who are they hiding from me?Did they catch some kind of disease?Or did they blow away with the breeze?
I have enough to last through the winter One winter But come spring I'll need to supply And though I like my space And my busted face I couldn't live if everyone died
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